Chuck Todd
Appearances
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And if I were to, new and electable is arguably how Barack Obama won, right? He made the case, hey, I'm new and let me prove to you that I'm electable. And if I recall, the 06 cycle was actually the cycle that proved he was electable because Barack Obama was invited to every red state Democratic. I think you were working Tim Johnson, right?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Evan Bayh, you were Tim Johnson in 02, right? Okay. But if I recall- There were a lot of red state Democrats that invited Barack Obama to campaign for him in 06. Not many who invited Hillary Clinton. Right. And that was sort of the first piece. You know, so he was able to create this case that, hey, I can go anywhere around the country. Oh, and oh, by the way, I'm also new. Right.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
So and the reason I assume it's new and electable is I think there'll be a desperation to win. Right. Trump just exhausts everybody, just like we saw with Biden, with with the 2020 race and what happened there. And the Democratic Party always wants new. Right. That has been the hallmark of when when there's not an incumbent involved.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
You know, I I've always believed the rise of Bernie Sanders had nothing to do with his politics. and his ideology and everything to do with Hillary Clinton was the known candidate. Who's the, who's the new, all right, we'll try that. I, you know, it, I think, I think there were a lot of people who could have been the alternative to Hillary had they run. They just, most people just didn't run.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And he was, he was really the only viable alternative that was out there. So I do think new will be the, will, will matter to, you know, and that, and what I mean by that is I don't think there's a name you and I will discuss today. That might be that candidate, right? Think about Pete Buttigieg. Pete Buttigieg in 2017, who had him in the finals for the presidential nomination in 2020, right?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
So I look around it. Maybe it's Abigail Spanberger, right? Maybe it's somebody we haven't thought of, a state senator that goes viral and pulls an upset in Kansas or Nebraska or Iowa, right? That's to me just as viable as Cory Booker figuring out a way to win the nomination.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Somebody can go to the Chuck Todd cast. Somebody can go on the Chuck Todd cast.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
No, but actually what it really is, is can you go everywhere? Not just specific places, right? Like, you know, I've always thought that that was Donald Trump's secret sauce. He said no to nobody. And it was I mean, it's it helped Obama. Obama was on Monday Night Football. He was a Obama was a would say no to nobody. Right.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Like that, that, you know, I used to think it was Chris Christie's, you know, special powers until he had his own, you know, he he beat, you know, he cost himself. But that used to be an advantage for him because he was willing to go anywhere.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
What do you make of those two assessments? By the way, I love the word consequential. How often I now hear this word consequential. Okay, where else are you hearing it? Well, because Mitch McConnell defenders won't say he was a great senator. They'll say he's one of the most consequential senators. The point is the word is such a beautiful word because it's a way to...
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Well, look, I think, you know, Well, let me throw the question back at you. I was at dinner with a very prominent Democratic donor who then held very prominent ambassadorships in the last two Democratic administrations, which I know actually doesn't give you a lot of clues because that's actually still a pretty reasonably long list. Yeah, I won't. Even if I have a guess, I won't make it.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Don't say it because I don't want to do that. But it's the type of person. That's why I'm telling you this. You know who these... I always say these people are... The conventional wisdom, and I don't say that disparagingly, like, you know, they're moving with where. And this person said to me, oh, that photo op that she's dead. She's never living that down. It's over. And I'm like, really?
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Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I thought that was a little extreme, right? That that was over. I will say this. I'm a believer that you gotta lean in. I think you're building your presidential campaign. You should do it in the same way that good football teams use the draft, which is you double down on strength. Don't try to be something you're not, okay? Don't try to be something that your team's not built for.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Don't try to be a politician. That's off the brand. Right. So her brand is what that she is willing to go, you know, talk to red voters and blue voters. So her brand is the swing state person, all of that. So the problem is she got caught apologizing, essentially, for being with Trump. Right. The first the folder is kind of a version of a. Oh, I didn't mean I didn't.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I'm trying to reach out, but I'm embarrassed there or even at the National Guard ceremony when her first instinct was I wasn't planning on speaking. I thought that was a moment of weakness, which is no. You got to be comfortable in your own skin. This is your strength. Right. If she's in there, it's because she can win. Right. It's because she can govern in a sort of from the middle out.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I'm not saying she's a centrist, but that that's so I think that the tactically. I think what she's done is right. Her execution, though, right? You look at it, her individual performance, it's like Chuck Schumer. He made the right decision, but you stepped on yourself because of how poorly you communicated, you know, you kind of communicated a flip-flop there. No, we're going to force a shutdown.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
No, no, we're not. That's a terrible idea. You know, here's Whitmer If you're trying to show you're willing to reach across the aisle and you're going to work with whoever you got to work with, then don't act like you're embarrassed when you get caught doing it. Right. So I don't know. You know, you're you. I think you you you're pretty good at identifying problems like that.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
impart importance without necessarily saying they were good or bad. Well, they're consequential. Okay. Right. You know, the point is, is that it really is such an interesting subjective word. And I kind of look at it as a bit of a weasel word. Right. But personally, because I think the word and I get it right. Cause he is consequential. Sure.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Do you think that's going to be something that lingers for her, that it becomes it's sort of like it sits in that you're like, well, you did the right thing. But why are you embarrassed about it?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Where is J.B. Pritzker? So he goes to New Hampshire because he didn't know where else to go, did he?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
But nobody, it's so hard to get an event in Vegas because people, they're not, it's not a political community that's used to it yet, right? You know, there's an established, right? You know, oh, the five people, hey, I need to get an audience of 50 in a New Hampshire event, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah, I got so-and-so on speed dial.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And by the way, my guess is she promised she'd do that.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Can you think of a moment? Do you remember a moment during your your years where a candidate, you know, got caught in something and it's like, oh, boy, why don't you go clean it up there at the end? I feel like there's one of those happened during the Obama years, but I can't.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
But you're absolutely right. And that's why it's like I struggle with the Whitmer because I think, again, her brand is I work with everybody. And I think that's her. If you tell me, I do the coma test. If I'm in a coma, I wake up and you tell me Gretchen Whitmer is the nominee. Oh, well, she must have prioritized this. Right. You know what I mean?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And so is a wild animal in my yard consequential in the moment, right? That's going rabid on us, right? You're like, yeah, it's consequential at the moment. Anyway, I don't know if you get the point I'm trying to say, but I just- I do.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Like you're just in the party bought into the idea that, hey, we need somebody who can win and we need somebody who's willing to. willing to work with red voters as much as there were blue voters, right? So I get it. And that's why it's just poor execution. That's really what it was on both cases.
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Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I think that was my first NBC scoop for them was reporting that Mark Warner wasn't running.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
It was a big deal at the time.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Speaking of Evan Bayh. And look, let's be honest. Why did you go work for Evan Bayh? Because you cared about the state of Indiana's policies? Sure. But... You thought maybe that was a presidential campaign.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And so we don't know what that is. But by the way – but it didn't mean that people weren't wrong. Right. They had to figure out how to win some red states. Well, it turns out you needed a better communicator. If you have a good communicator, they can win a red state. And frankly, I thought – well, anyway, he did – Obama always knew the limitations of his ideology.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
He may have believed, which is something that I think is a lost art these days. To know where the public is going to be. Yeah. To sort of be able to balance. Look, I have some views. You know, I always say this. I get frustrated. People think they know my political views. I'm like, no, you don't. I said, I just know how things get done.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And I just believe you get most things done from the middle out. But on some issues, if I told you my position, you'd think I'm some radical lefty or some radical this or whatever. but the longer you live, right? The longer you see this town operate, you realize, well, if you want anything to stick, you gotta, you gotta start like take Obamacare. That was not the way he wanted to pass healthcare.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Not even structurally necessarily, but he decided, no, I want to do it. So what's the best way to politically get it done, right? And that's all I think voters are looking for. Are you a pragmatist enough to get to your goals? We don't care how you do it, as long as you achieve a goal.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Right. George W. Bush, I used to say, really consequential president. Because at the end of the day, at the time, you were like, well, doesn't look like Iraq's going to age well. We'll see. And it hasn't. And it hasn't. And in fact, the legacy has somehow led to the Republican Party to no longer even believe in half the policies they used to believe in the Bush era.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
It's pretty much the original newsletter, right? Yeah.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
It's all derivative. The note was a derivative. All these things were derivative of the original hotline.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And we went out of our – we had to create a network of people that – I mean – Dan, if I told you, I mean, it's no different than, you know, building volunteers, but I had, you know, all sorts of weird relationships with people who liked clipping papers and faxing them to me for in exchange for a free subscription to the hotline.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And they got up either they bought the bulldog edition at one o'clock in the morning and sent me stuff or whatever. But yeah. That was our internet that we built.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Ultimate sort of establishment media game, right?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
No, I look at the, you know, the poll that I sort of been obsessed over of all the polling, even though they've all been very similar, has been Pew's because Pew had a large enough sample to have some interesting little, they were able to, I think, correctly find the following, right? And which you see tidbits up there, which is,
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
So I, you know, it's a, look, it's a good question. I've sort of, I've soured on traditional media because traditional media doesn't want to grow anymore. And it's not that... One of the things I said about leaving NBC is the last year was hard because it was the first time I worked anywhere where there wasn't an environment to grow. Now, I've had to lay people off.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I've been at cuts, but every other... sort of time that there was a sort of a media recession, right? Where you had to tighten the belt, but you would tighten the belt on some legacy media project or older media project, but you would double down and invest on what the new was, right? And there was always, and even my last two years of Meet the Press, I was focused on streaming, right?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I was focused on getting the show ready for, like, it was clear we're headed here, you know, and it felt like a, it felt like where people were going to recover from cable, right? You know, cable was, cable feels like, I call cable news FM radio for the 90s, right? There's still money to be made, but you can feel that its relevance is slowly receding. FM radio, right?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Radio had impact in the 90s, but you knew its relevance was receding, right? Howard Stern or Rush Limbaugh could make some waves, but by the turn of the century, radio was almost irrelevant as a medium. And I don't know if that's 2030 with cable, right? It's going to be it. So, look, I sort of have a split personality here, right?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I still feel like I've got something to say in the political analyst space. The one thing I was doing that I enjoyed the most at NBC was the podcast. I do think the Sunday show interview and, frankly, the television interview as we know it in traditional media is just useless.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
People are trying to make it useful, but whether it's politicians who are trying to use the medium to raise money or it's journalists trying to use the interview to become influencers, whatever it is, the podcast is the one – for political discussions, having the 30 minutes, having the nuance, right? Feels like it's just a more fulfilling time, both for the guest.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I mean, every elected official I've interviewed so far, and whether it's in my previous version of the podcast or now, it's been easier to book them for this than it was for the Sunday show. right? Because the Sunday show felt like a stress test, right? And you were worrying about so many other things where this, you feel like you get a... So I just enjoy this format more, right?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
So just as personal thing. But the other part is I've You talk about the hotline. I didn't own the hotline, but I felt like an entrepreneur. I felt like I was part of the ownership group. I wasn't. Trust me. This newsletter craze happened and we didn't make any money off of it. That's always something the late Doug Bailey and I used to laugh at all the time. But I do think we're in a moment of...
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
You know, if you look at the history of, and I just go back to sort of the late 19th century, going through the last sort of 130 years of media, it's been a series of fragmentation and consolidations, right? When we figured out how to reproduce the photograph, magazines proliferated, and we had a slew of magazines in the 10s, the 20s, and the 30s. When the initial beginning of radio,
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
People don't like the execution of Donald Trump, but they're not yet souring on his goals, right? And I think the Pew poll did the best job of at least showing that, where what he's trying to do, there's still support for out there. His execution, though, is something that voters don't like at all. And then you see that when you see, oh, the Democrats are not, it's not a seesaw, right?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Man, there were radio stations all over, all locally owned. But in each case, over time, you got consolidation, right? And every time a new technology came, there'd be some fragmentation. Cable's another one. Over time, it turned into consolidation. We're now at a, look, streaming and the ability to sort of instantaneously be anywhere you want to be, interview anywhere you want to interview.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I mean, think of this. It wasn't that long ago, Dan, that NBC used to have something called Where in the World is Matt Lauer? And it was a big deal because it was like, we're going to broadcast from the Gobi Desert, you know, right? Or we're going to broadcast from the South Pole. Well, anybody with a phone can do this now, right? Like there is no limits, right?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
So that is, notice that there's no where in the world is Al Roker or, you know, I say this because that's, you're like, so what, right? You know, there's some Instagram feed that's probably been doing this for the last 10 years, right? Showing you in all these places. So- I do think that I spent a year sort of on this journey to figure out why do they hate us? How did we lose trust?
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Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And the ultimate conclusion I came to was the loss of local, that the gutting of local news. I mean, I have this sort of cheap hot take line, which is a guy named Craig thought classifieds ought to be free, yada, yada, yada, Donald Trump became president.
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Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And it's, you know, because it turned out any news organization, newspaper that had a circulation of 50,000 or less, a majority of their revenue was classified. And so it just gutted. It just got it. And I do think that national media has never been fully trusted by people. But local media gave where our character references. Right. When local media sort of was reporting what we're reporting.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Oh, OK. Right. You know that. Yeah. You know, I know those guys are you know, my kid goes to school with that guy's kid or, you know, there was just a little bit more familiarity. And I think it gave us trust. And I think the loss of local is why, you know, the farther you are away from a politician or the farther you're away from a media person, the more you assume they don't know how you live.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Right. They don't understand your life. So I'm I'm you know, that's the you know, when I'm not making content, that's what I'm focused on is I want to try to scale local news. I want to try to find a revenue stream because I don't think nonprofits the answer. I think it hasn't worked. It's been it's filled the vacuum.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
But unfortunately, I think a lot of these nonprofit news organizations are making too much what I call journalism for journalists and not enough service journalism.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And I think local news really needs to be in service of the people that live in a community, meaning you're helping them live their lives versus national news, which I think is your civics telling you what the macro view of the world is. And I have a thesis that youth sports and high school sports can be the glue and the revenue stream that could be the future of local news.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
So in short, that's that's why this is exciting to me, because I can both create a podcast independently, own it and pursue this. You know, I'm just trying. I enjoy the fact that I don't have to ask permission to some corporate parent to do anything right now.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
No, and I think if – and look, this is not just about – starting a local news organization that is only focused on trying to figure out what's happening at city council meetings. It's also just simply about helping people. Where do I find a restaurant I can take my family out tonight that isn't going to break the bank?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And hey, did you know this store's got... The newspaper was an incredible device for people. And what I think the biggest mistake we all made as journalists was assuming most people subscribe to the paper to pay for news. No, most people subscribe to the paper, not because of the news. It was basically in order to understand what the hell was going on and in the community. Right.
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Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Trump goes down, Democrats go up. You're not seeing that yet, right? Nothing, whatever the Democrats haven't penetrated yet. You know, the best way you could say it is Democratic messaging has yet to penetrate or they're just not focused on it or there is no unified Democratic message, which is probably closer to being the correct answer.
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Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Whether it was movie listings, TV guide coupons, you know, whatever it is that that was a bigger part of the purchase process. than I think we journalists want to admit, right? And so I think that we have to get out of this phase. The people that want to be informed will always find a way to be informed. The problem in our politics today is that we don't have a way to accidentally inform people.
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Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Which is the stuff they would catch. There's this great study that I'm obsessed with. It involves newspapers. And it still worked, which is a couple of college academics saw that there's a correlation that if you get a newspaper delivered to your house, you're more likely to vote. So they wanted to say, OK, what if we just force fed a newspaper to people?
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Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Would it increase that group of people's voting history? And sure enough, it did. They sent the paper to a whole bunch of people that didn't vote in their last election. And just the simple act of throwing away the newspaper at least told them when the election was. And those people came out in bigger numbers than those that did not receive the paper.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
So there's something to accidentally informing people that we're missing.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
But now they've turned off the algorithm. Right.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And I do think that there's a way, and again, I think we know consolidation is coming. I just don't know what it looks like on Substack, right? I don't know what it looks like on YouTube, but it's coming and that's part of, and you guys are in some ways, you're planted a flag and I hope to be a consolidator. That's the bottom line.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And then the other thing that I found interesting in the Pew poll is they did this subset. They did the subset of non-voters. And what was interesting, because this to me tells me about the media climate. So at the start of his presidency in Pew, non-voters from 2024 approved, gave him a 44% job approval. So skeptical, but 44.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Well, I think it's difficult because – I just happen to know many of these journalists know they don't have the support of their corporate bosses. And so it is created. This it's real. OK, I don't I'm not going to get into I don't want to get into names that I for a variety of reasons. But it's obvious, right? The this is we can feel it. Right.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And and the reporters themselves are frustrated because they're not sure. It's one of those moments where. They're going to think and they're going to look behind them and nobody's following, right? You know, I'm just, you know, it's come up quite a bit. The issue when myself and Jake and a few others, you know, were upset when you guys didn't allow Fox into the pool for a Ken Feinberg interview.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I don't know if you remember that incident. Yeah. And I remember one of our motivations was. I do. Yeah. And right. But the point is, you know, this is where it's like I just like we we were genuine and why we were fighting. It was like the shoe is going to be on the other foot. Right. You know, it's inevitable. And so the lack of anybody coming to AP's defense has just been heartbreaking to me.
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Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Now he had collapsed down to 31 job approval among people that didn't vote. What that tells me, because non-voters are usually lower information voters. And what I mean by that is they're just not paying attention. It doesn't mean they're dumb. These are people that are busy or just aren't as engaged. But what they're getting, they don't like, right?
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Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
and watching the AP have to- And are you surprised by that?
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Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
None. And I think the fear, of course, was that the collective action wouldn't matter. And that's, I think, the difficulty here, right? You've got to, you've got, it's like, you know, I'm haunted by what the managing partner for Paul Weiss said when he said, look, we looked for allies and instead they were poaching our clients. Look at what certain news organizations are doing.
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Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
They're virtue signaling on saying, well, all right, we'll call it. We'll call the Gulf whatever name you want us to call it. And you're just like, on one hand, I understand that it's your mission, that you're trying to be above this and that you're not trying to get caught into this. But ultimately, the First Amendment's the First Amendment. Look, how they kicked AP out of the pool was the issue.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Look, they can do what they want. but it was the rationale was clearly unconstitutional. If you can't stand up for that basic principle, then get out of journalism, right? Like that should, that is, you know, what hill do you die on? That hill, die on that hill. It's if you die on that hill, then it's done anyway, right? Like what's the point? So I've been, I don't think it's fair.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And I'll say this, I, you know, I certainly think there's been plenty of good individual journalism, but you can feel, there's not a comfort level of how do you cover this Trump White House. And covering the Trump White House is hard because you know the public stuff is not true.
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Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
So the best way to report is behind the scenes, which then in itself becomes, you end up having to litigate your sourcing and litigate all this. And it's like, so it is both a, I think it's both easy to report on Trump because everybody does talk a lot of times off the record or on background or stuff like this.
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Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
But it is hard because of how aggressive the West Wing is in essentially trying to exploit the unpopularity of the traditional media.
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Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I have a guest earlier this week, a specialist in this. I mean, people on the right get upset at me that I'm using the word, but I don't know how else... What else do you call it? That inaugural fund is just that.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
So it does tell me that it's all bad for Trump right now, right? His media environment. I mean, Dave Portnoy is out there complaining about him, right? He doesn't even have a unified... His the right wing machine is not even unified in celebrating his first hundred days.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Can I just – I hate interrupting your thought. Yeah. But just very quick on this. Traditional media, you already have alienated the right. Doing this isn't going to help you with the right. And all you're going to do is alienate the people that still trusted you. And now nobody's going to trust anything out of those major traditional media outlets. It's a huge.
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Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And can I just tell you, individual members of those traditional outlets are seething over this and are demoralized and depressed. And it's across the board, Dan. Anyway, sorry.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
You know why I'm bitter about this? You know why I'm bitter about this? Because during COVID, we were the only revenue they had. And they took our revenue. We all took pay cuts. They took our revenue and applied it elsewhere. And then when elsewhere got, yeah, it's time for media, the news divisions have to put on a raincoat, but where's the pay it forward?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
We were there when you had no revenue during COVID, brother. No sports, nothing. We were the revenue and it did. The news divisions generated all this sort of it kept them afloat in certain instances. So some of us individually are very bitter about their behavior because it's like they have a total memory loss that this is the whole reason why you are conglomerate.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Some things are down, but you're going to have some things that are up. And then when some things go down, you have other things that are up. I thought that's why you wanted to be a multi, you know, national corporation. Sorry. Right.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
You know what I mean? Republican senators have told me Well, if I'm not there, you won't imagine who replaces me, right? It's the same mindset.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
So I just think this has been political malpractice, how they've handled this first hundred days, because there were ways to make this better. And they have just I mean, can you imagine? If you didn't have George W. Bush to blame for the economy after 100 after the 100 days taking over in the Obama presidency.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
But sort of – Traditional is the fairest you can do. Legacy feels negative too. Yeah.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I think this is the biggest dividing line among the opposition to Trump, is this issue that you just identified. Because I think, you know, I've always said, you know, the biggest riddle we have to solve in America is there's a 60% majority that would like to have an alternative to Donald Trump. The problem is that 60% can't agree on anything, right?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And you have about half who believe that this is, we are in a existential moment. And you have half that simply believe that no, the one party has lost their mind and will be able to quote unquote revert back. And I think that's the tension that you, I think that tension bears out in the press.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I think you have some in the press that see it as a existential crisis and some that view this as a Republican party crisis. that will go away when Trump goes away. I'll be honest, I vacillate on this. I go back and forth. I think the party is a kleptocracy right now. I mean, just look at how Trump and the meme coins and, you know, hey, you know, if you buy this meme coin now, you get money here.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
So you can't succeed in the Republican Party without paying off Trump. So that is the beginnings of a kleptocracy. Are we Erdogan? No. Are we early stages Orban? Maybe, right? So that's when I say, I find myself vacillating back and forth. I do think our democracy isn't gonna go away tomorrow because I think our local, it's too ingrained in so many places, right?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
So that's I think you've I always I feel like that issue is the is the real tension, even among those that know we're on the wrong path. The question is, it's sort of it's in the party. Yes.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Yeah, I'm more devastated on an international way than I am domestically. Politically, we can heal quickly domestically. I think we've created problems internationally that are going to take a generation to rebuild. And that is whether it's trust with other countries. What we've done to Canada, I think, is something that is going to be problematic for beyond one... It's going to take...
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
America electing, you know, a Republican president that is, you know, a Democratic and a Republican president back to back that is so opposite of Trump. You know what I mean? Like, it's a minimum decade before we earn the trust back of our key allies. I think we are he has launched a a nationalism in a lot of places. Right. Nationalism out of survival.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
The way many countries, I think, are going to view this. And so I just, so when I, that's when I say I vacillate, I think the damage internationally, I don't think people fully appreciate how bad it is and how long that will take to recover trust.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And Donald Trump said, yeah, I'm going to make sure everybody knows this is my economy now. Right. Like you're like, OK, brother, it's all yours. You don't get to blame Biden anymore because you have actually impacted the direction of this economy. And every voter now knows it.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I mean, you know, America has been trying to get trust back in Latin America for 50 years and we set ourselves back quite a, you know, every time we take one step forward, there's usually something that puts us two steps back. So I, that's how I vacillate because I think domestically we'll recover faster than we will internationally.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I am angry about – that's what I'm upset about. It's the idea that the media – the media is the reason why the public thought he was too old because the media showed you – him shuffling every day and the media didn't have the interviews with them and would tell you the media would show you that, hey, he's using the short staircase. Right. You know, how is it that Fox even had the clips to show?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Right. It was to me. So and, you know, now, were there pundits on MSNBC and CNN who. essentially tried to shame any member of the press that would bring this up. Yes, that was true. I mean, Joe Scarborough did this, right? He was very aggressive as a defender of Joe Biden whenever it seemed like it was necessary, whenever this would pop up.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
But this idea that it wasn't an issue, my goodness, Dean Phillips did run for president on this issue. Now, there were certain pundits that he did. Yes. Well, I mean, but that's and you're and you're right. Like, but I would argue it was it's the Democratic Party that's responsible for this. They're the ones that's what everything they could do. And this is the party's fault.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
It you know, the media is not an organ of the Democratic Party. And there's too many Democrats who wish the media was. And there are too many people in the media who sometimes think that is their job. And my frustration is that, look, it wasn't David Ignatius had a front page column that they put on the front page when they did it, that he shouldn't run again.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
That column ran in the front page of The Washington Post in October of 2023. You know, so the idea that that somehow the media was all in cahoots is just nonsense. Now, I know how this happened. You know how this happened. Everybody's personal interaction with Biden was good enough when you thought the alternative was Donald J. Trump.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And if if if everybody had been asked the same question and Nikki Haley was the person standing over there, there would have been a chorus of Democrats who would have said he can't run for reelection.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
You know, it's a good question whether it's about just simply electability or. But I do think that I do think that it goes to one of Joe Biden's favorite expressions. Don't judge me by the almighty. Judge me by the alternative. Right. I think there were plenty of Democrats who were assessing Biden's situation based on, well, Trump's manic, Biden's slower. Okay, they both have issues.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
You know what I mean? It became more of a reactionary response. My point is, I understand the human... I don't I don't want to violate an off the record by Jeff Zients speak to my my class of kids a couple of weeks ago. And of course, they all asked. And Jeff Zients answer off the record was the same answer he's given on the record, you know, which is in my dealings with him. Joe Biden was fine.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Right. And if you've noticed so many people from that West Wing usually word it that way. Well, in my experience, right, it was fine. Which, by the way, both things can be true. Yeah. I guess let's put aside whether the media like there are some room or like. And that's why the reason I'm upset about this is that we know what Fox only wants the right.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
But Dan, I'm old enough to remember when the surge in the stock market during the transition was supposed to be Donald Trump's stock market surge. So I'm very confused. Yes.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
They're trying desperately to make the media part of the Democratic Party to create distrust in in in legitimate journalists in order to get their pablum believed by by by by their. viewers. So this is why I get my back up about it. Right. This is why I get my back up about it. It's an intentional business strategy that so what if the truth isn't there? We're just trying to discredit that.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And look, I take it as a badge of honor. They get obsessed with trying to discredit me because I think they know I have plenty of legitimacy.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
No. And that's the thing. Like, you know, this is where and this is where I get, you know, you're sort of like, well, what's the media these days? How do you define it? You know, is it is it the the White House press corps? Yeah, I could argue that the White House press corps didn't make this an issue and they could have. Where's the president today? How come he's not doing a public event today?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
How come he hasn't done a press conference today? You know, there wasn't that. So I will I accept that, that that didn't exist in that press room. And I think this is where the Biden White House created a chill among reporters, meaning if you dare do that, good luck. getting your interview that you were hoping to get with Biden or Harris, et cetera.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
So they made it clear there was a price to pay, I think, to some reporters. So yeah, I do think some pulled their punches in that press room because they were daily interacting with the Biden press shop.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I mean, I say this in that. Was there a Parkinson's diagnosis that nobody reported on? Do you know what I mean? Like, what's the cover up? What I would say, forget cover up. It was obvious that he wasn't up for a second term.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
He himself promised, I can't tell you how many people who I've talked to that were on stage with him when he said transitional president and what they all heard and what they all believe they heard that were standing on that stage with him, they all heard one term. And so I think it's the people in the West Wing, look, I had a cabinet secretary and I said this after the debacle of the debate,
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
because I felt like I could share it, but it was an off the record. I had a cabinet secretary who asked me at the end of 22, he can't run again, right? And this cabinet secretary, you know, and said, you know, I said, do you ever get any FaceTime with him? He says, nope.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And it was, you know, and those stories were reported about how cabinet secretaries don't get FaceTime with the president, right? They limited the interactions because they wanted to limit the conversations, right? Nobody had it hard. that he wasn't available, right? It was always just whispers or, huh, he's not, it was what he wasn't doing that turned out to be the evidence, right?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
He wasn't able to do this or he wasn't able to do that or he wasn't able, I mean, the Super Bowl interview, which again, Plenty of this is why I'm like, it's not as if it was hidden. This is why I take this idea that it's this such this black and white, that the media was part of the cover up versus never. Please. All the conversation around this. Wow.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Yeah, I know. We're shocked that Donald Trump isn't consistent.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
You don't even want to do a Super Bowl interview. Is it that difficult? Are you that concerned? Right. Like, yeah, it was all out there in the ether. That's why the fault belongs to the Democratic Party. It's Joe Biden. It's Joe Biden. It's Nancy Pelosi. It's Chuck Schumer. It's Ron Klain. It's Jeff Science. It's everybody that was around him.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And and, you know, I do think that it's a weaker defense. Like I saw Rahm Emanuel coming out and saying, well, I said I told people I don't think that's going to come across very well, by the way. I don't know if you saw those comments that he made.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Let me ask you, do you guys feel like you guys should have used your voice more to drive him out of the race? Yeah, we've talked about this.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Well, and now you're getting, you know, reporters have to have sources to report stuff. Yeah. That's another problem. Right. Is that you might have a like, boy, this looks one way. And every time you try to report it out, you got a different answer. Right.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
you know, I I got ridiculed for even hosting Dean Phillips for a podcast, you know, and yet I was like, Oh, great, I guess I've you know, but I was already look, I was in a weird position. I was post meet the press, so I was trying not to compete with with bookings and other stuff. So I was in a weird spot, you know, to to not I was sort of a walking ghost. Right.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
No, I mean, the facts were on his side, but in this way – I mean, I really believe that Trump could have convinced many people that, hey, this inflate, you know, we're still recovering from Biden's inflationary mess and all this stuff. And nope, not anymore.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
So I had to be I had to be careful. But it was, you know, it's one of those things where I think news organizations We're trying to get interviews with the president. And you can't tell me that didn't have an impact on what might be said publicly versus what you might know privately.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Can I just tell you? As a journalist, I hate... I know you didn't mean it this way. I hate the idea that you think that someone tries to get an interview because they might think it's good. I just want to get an interview with Joe Biden. They may think that. I just wanted a Joe Biden interview because I'm trying to... There's a whole bunch of questions I have for him.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I really think most journalists think that way and, in fact, are disappointed if other viewers aren't as interested. It's more the opposite. They hope viewers are as interested in something as they are. But anyway, I just... It is... A lot of us don't think of the ratings thing first. Yeah, that's fair. I'm not saying there aren't other bookings that are that way.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
No, and you're not wrong. Anyone's boss, not just my network.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
It all depends on what you're trying to do. I mean, I've I'll tell you the interview that I never got to conduct with him that I that I haven't seen anybody do that. I actually still want to do with him, which is, you know, the problem with him. So for instance, the third term nonsense. If you ask him, he's going to play with the topic, almost the way a cat plays with a dead mouse.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
In fact, I promise you, if I phrased a question like the following to Donald Trump, why is Japan a country? How come we don't own Japan? We bombed them. We beat them in World War II. You know what Trump would probably say? You're right. And you could create a headline, Donald Trump thinks Japan ought to be American territory, right? Is he really serious about it?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Or is it like the movie Anchorman where he'll accept any premise so you can be careful? So I do think there's a responsibility as a journalist that, you know, be careful asking something that feels like a shiny metal object that might make you feel like you get a cheap headline that actually... isn't really that substantive, like Trump third term. I'm sorry.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I'm not there on Trump third term the way some other people are. But here's what I wish would be asked to him in the interview, which is, why'd you choke on January 6th? So what I would do is, I think the trick to interviewing Donald Trump is to hand him rope.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I think the mistake that I've made and many others make is to try to bring him into your reality when maybe you're better off helping the viewer see his reality. I like that. So you know what this means? Donald Trump, come on Chuck Todd cast. I, you know, I don't think it's a 0% chance. You know how they operate.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I, you know, I mean, he, he believes he can handle any interview and if you get, and his staff, if he wants to do something, his staff will never stop him.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Correct. His chief architect, right, with his tariff regime, Oren Kass, wrote this op-ed in the New York Times that laid out a much more reasonable way to have tried to execute this, which is essentially You put out what you're going to do, but you give everybody six months. You actually don't do anything until October, until the fall.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And you give yourself time for both business to prepare itself and perhaps trade deals to take place. But that's not the Donald Trump way. And, you know. If you actually are an advocate of this policy, you should be really angry with Donald Trump because he may tarnish the whole idea for decades.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
If enough senators show up, I didn't expect this to happen until until the spring of next year. I mean, because people would be right. Yeah. Because you think they'd be separating for the election. So I do. You know, my three, you know, my three early primary guys that I'm obsessed with are Tillis, Cassidy and Cornyn. Right. None of the three are MAGA Republicans.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
All three are going to face primary challenges in Senate races. And the right the assumption right now is they're going to lose their primaries. You can't beat MAGA in a primary. I think the evidence so far has been true. But I'm very curious if one year from now, is it an asset for Tom Tillis that he's not MAGA? Is it an asset for John Cornyn that he's not MAGA in a Republican primary?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I'm skeptical, but now I'm curious to watch to see if voters change.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And governors, you want to know the single toughest thing to do is stop a governor from winning reelection. It is probably harder than anything. It's one of these things, if you're a true junkie listening to Dan and I here, go look at the history. Governors are harder to prevent from their first reelection than probably any other elected official there is out there.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Well, I can I quote Barack Obama that don't do stupid shit. Yeah. You know, idea two, which is I think that's the position I'd be in this early, which is just don't do stupid shit. Right. Don't get out of your way. It's a little bit of carvel, a little bit like. But but I look at it this way. I think a good, loud, messy debate would be healthy for the party.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Now, you and I are you and I are old enough to go back to the I'm obsessed with the 88 to 92 experience. Right. Which was, you know, 88 was was was one of those moments where Democrats just couldn't believe they got crushed. It was one thing to lose, but they got crushed and it became this massive thing. external fight, right?
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Dan Pfeiffer, it's good to see you. I think I was one of your guests in the first month of your launch, if I'm not mistaken.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And so you had Bill Clinton essentially deciding to start almost an alternative party in the DLC at the time. He picked a fight with the Jesse Jackson wing of the party purposely, right? In many ways to to differentiate himself. And there was a knockdown drag out fight at times. Ron Brown was the DNC chair.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And I remember it's so funny to see how close Ron Brown and Bill Clinton came once he won the presidency. But there was a time when Ron Brown was DNC chair where they saw Bill Clinton in the DLC is as an arch enemy, right, as trying to upend what they were doing.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
But what's interesting about that experience, and I would argue also the experience you had in 05, 06 and 07, which was also a similar period of of Democratic introspection that I would argue all of this is what everybody should strike their own path to see what's working. This is a spaghetti at the wall moment.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
What's good for AOC may not be good for Wes Moore, but what's good for Wes Moore may not be good for what's Pete Buttigieg. And at this point, I think the party is searching for a way. I think party leaders ought to be trying different things. I think the two people with the hardest job are Jeffries and Schumer, right? Because they have the titles.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
So there's this expectation that they should be the leader, but what are they leading, right? It's really hard. So I'm empathetic that it's hard for them to play leader, but right now they're the leader because there's nobody else. So, you know, Schumer could be a better communicator. I don't know how Schumer became a bad communicator. He used to be a great communicator. The world.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And I don't know. Yeah, it's fair. I mean, and it may be that he was a good communicator in the previous way that that that communicating took place. He has really struggled because I think he made the right decision. I mean, I don't think the government's open right now, by the way, if they should. I'm convinced that Trump would have just used selectively open certain parts of government.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I don't know. Every episode you guys do is controversial to somebody. The beauty of social media is if you want to be controversial, somebody will help you be controversial. Yes, that is true. That is true.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
there wouldn't have been, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm a cynic on that one. I do think that there was, that this might, you might've been handing them an opportunity, not a potential loss. So I think his tactic was correct, but how he messaged it, right? Absolutely made it seem worse.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
So I can't sit here and say any one idea is a bad idea and how everybody's doing, because I kind of think this is a, I think there needs to be a thousand flowers here and let's see which ones bloom.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I feel like you're poor. No offense, Dan. I apologize. I wish I were your age then. You have an old soul. I'm an old soul, exactly.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
One big issue, law and order. Yeah. And welfare. Right. It was government support, but it was law and order, right? And if you think about it, think about the two things Bill Clinton had to do in his 92 campaign, right? He had a mentally questionable person was put to death.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
He needed to show he was pro death penalty. And, you know, it's still a it is still a controversial decision to some people that he made, but not to the voters. Right. He was trying to virtue signal, hey, I'm a different type of Democrat. I'm not afraid of the death penalty. I'm not afraid of using these things.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
And then, of course, this the so-called sister soldier moment where he sort of had this cultural pushback. But, you know, that that moment to me. is I wonder if somebody is going to try a Bill Clinton playbook. I think Gavin Newsom is kind of trying it right now, which is try really hard to almost pick a fight to show you're not a conventional progressive Democrat, at least on cultural issues.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
I don't know if that's going to be effective this time. But I do expect to see a few candidates try it or a few Democrats try it.
Pod Save America
Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)
Right. Well, it's interesting. Let me throw something else at you. My main thesis about 27-28 is that the Democratic primary electorate is going to prioritize two things, new and electable. Now, the problem with electability is how subjective it is. That is sometimes in the eye of the beholder, but some of that can bear out in polling and some of that.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Look, when I go to a restaurant in my neighborhood, I want locally sourced ingredients. That makes me feel good. Oh, locally sourced ingredients, that's great. Well, guess what? I want my political news locally sourced. And I think that if we can create an information ecosystem
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
that has more journalists on the ground, fewer political journalists in Washington and more political journalists everywhere else in the country, you're gonna get a locally sourced version of this stuff. And then people will understand and feel like they have an idea of what the federal government is doing for them.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Right now, they don't have a clue and I don't blame them because they only hear about it nationally. It's very reported in very general terms. National coverage of these big government decisions is usually done from the widest possible prism you have. So sometimes people think, well, that doesn't apply to me. I don't know what that means for me.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Well, they don't know what it means for them because there's nobody, none of their friends and neighbors are charged with reporting on what it means for them. And so one of the hopes I have is that we can that I can put together a group of people where we can help super. There's a lot of great local startups around the country, local news entrepreneurs that are out there, but they need some help.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And I think if we can if I could we could put together some national organizations to do this. Look, I want to find a revenue stream that's similar to classifieds in order to fund this. I think nonprofit can help get stuff started, but it's not a sustainable way to keep local news thriving. We have to find a revenue stream.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
My dream, of course, is – and I sort of – I said this in the New York Times piece about the launch of my media company – is I'd love all local news ownership to look like the Green Bay Packers, meaning that it was community owned, that there isn't an individual owner or there isn't a corporate owner.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Because I do think corporate owned media companies, their first responsibility is to their shareholders, not the general public. And they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders. So you already have potentially a conflict there. I think if you have sort of the way the Green Bay Packers are community-owned, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
The fact that the White House used that decision as the rationale to kick him out, that's just simply unconstitutional. Just like you can't fire somebody simply because of how they look. Right. There are protections in the law for that. Well, the Constitution is the ultimate protector on this one. So it's unconstitutional. A pretty simple thing to stand for, principally.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
If we had a community-owned Washington Post or a community-owned Miami Herald or a community-owned, still, you gotta make a profit. There'd be a local board of directors helping to oversee the business, but what's in the best interest of the community? So I look at the current media landscape. It's a mess. It's very partisan. It's being exploited and manipulated by the political parties.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
If we have any hope of fixing this, We can whine all we want about the big tech companies. And they are, look, they're not good actors here, right? They're vying for the attention economy. They've created algorithms that personally, I believe, makes them publishers and makes them much more vulnerable and have some liability when it comes. I don't think Section 230 provides the opportunity
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
The umbrella coverage for them of avoiding being publishers, I think the minute they've created an algorithm to decide what to amplify that shows up on my feed, they become a publisher. And therefore, then they sort of have to be held to the same standards that that other national news organizations are held to when it comes to advertising and things like that. Truth in advertising in particular.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
But I haven't heard a lawyer make that argument yet, but I'm convinced that when it is seen through the prism that the minute these tech companies use algorithms in order to keep me on their platform longer than I want to be because they've amplified something that emotionally gets me all charged up, that's made them a publisher. That's an editorial decision.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
That is something that I think needs to be relooked at. But look, would I love to see these algorithms either regulated or eliminated altogether? I would. But the fact of the matter is, while a majority of this country would like to see big tech regulated, half the country doesn't trust liberal politicians to do it, and half the country doesn't trust conservative politicians to do it.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
So unfortunately, I don't think you're going to see it happen. That way. And so the only other way to fix this information ecosystem is to flush it with better information. And the best way to do that is to start from the bottom up.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And I think if we have in the next five years, a thousand new community-based news organizations that begin by covering information that helps you live your life, whether it's about getting more access to youth sports and high school sports. So if you're late for a game, you can catch your kid without missing something. I think you can create a great advertiser market on that front.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Or you have somebody that's helping you micro forecast, micro forecasting of weather. We've never had better data to do this than ever before. It's the one good thing Washington Post does locally is Capital Weather Gang. That's something worth replicating around the country. I think you could make sure you hire a reporter who figures out how to save people money.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
In the old days, the newspaper gave us coupons and circulars and where we could go find sales. Well, the 21st century of this ought to be a really smart and savvy consumer reporter that's helping you figure out how to save money just in your community. And then from there, you start to build trust.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And yet there's not a single leader of a single traditional media company that is willing to stick their head out on behalf of the Associated Press. If anything, you saw certain competitive news organizations come out with their own decision on what they were going to call it. And in some way, it was almost sort of not dissimilar to what happened with the Paul Weiss law firm, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
You start to knit a community together and you're doing it without some sort of political motivation. Right. And when you put that together, then suddenly you're going to get journalists that are covering Washington through the prism of what's important to the community, not through the prism of what's important for one party to win or the other party to win.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
So, look, this is a short little rant here about the state of media. and about why you're seeing so many of us come into the independent space. I think it's pretty clear traditional media and the ownership structure is broken. I'm not sure it's fixable in the moment because many of these traditional media companies are publicly traded companies. And I think they're unfortunately
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
maybe 5% of the bottom line of some of these places. So it's almost not worth the investment for many of them to fix it. So if you care about the democracy, I think you sort of have to take matters in your own hands and we've got to sort of go back, be entrepreneurs and fix this information ecosystem from the bottom up. I think that can be done.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
In the meantime, we've got a lot of really smart journalists who've decided they don't want to be defined by, frankly, the bad brands of some of these traditional media companies. They want to let their work stand on their own. So after the break... my conversation with Tara Palmieri, who is one of those journalists who's declared her independence.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Well, joining me now is somebody who also just recently declared her journalism independence. It's Tara Palmieri, formerly of Puck. And in fact, this is basically that I'm finishing a home and away. I believe I was a guest on your podcast a few months back. So now it's my turn to host you. So welcome to the world of independent media. You got here a little bit sooner than I did. How's the water?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I'm still getting used to it.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
So a boomer on YouTube. I haven't gotten my boomer mom on YouTube yet.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
In the memo that the managing partner put out when he said, We sort of explained why they capitulated to the demands of the White House when it came to providing pro bono work in exchange for them not being targeted or not being denied security clearances and things like that.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Look, it's interesting. I've been going through this process over the last couple of months. It was crystal clear to me the worst thing to do would be to work for one employer. Right. You realized as a now, look, I think you had an advantage. You brought up the advantage I had. Right. I've built years of brand equity. And so it's certainly easier for me.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
You've had some your career is about half as long as mine has to do simply with the biological age difference between. Right. And but you had it. And look, not everybody. You know, the good news in this world is that the barrier to entry is low. as it should be, right? In a small D democracy, there should be this feeling that a press corps can pop up anywhere and the barrier to entry is low.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
But it you certainly do need to have some standing. Right. And I think that that's the that's the I think that's the challenge in navigating this new independent system. What do you mean by standing like some reputation, some success in sort of the, you know, in order to, I think, start with a, you know, to start building an audience quicker.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
You don't draw a line between an influencer and a journalist.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Right. No, I get that.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
What the managing partner said is, you know, they tried to rally other law firms and instead they found that other law firms were trying to poach their clients where everybody was out for themselves. Everybody was looking for a short term advantage, even if it was going to wound or hurt a long term principle. In this case, the principle being the First Amendment.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Look, I get that and I admire it. I've been watching it and the last thing I'm going to do is be somewhat critical of it because I think some of the success is very impressive. Some of it is success built on dishonesty, right? There's always that, right? Some of it is, yeah. There's a fine line.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
There's a few grifters out there, actually quite a few grifters out there because they see a way, if I can just hack an algorithm on Facebook or YouTube, I can make some extra dollars, right? So there certainly is that.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I want to get to that. I'm going to put a pin in that conversation because I want to stick to the trust thing a minute, because I do want to talk about sort of the what I would call the intentional fake journalists, meaning they're partisan actors that have literally gotten funding from from from official sources in order to create like the Michigan Chronicle and things like that.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Yeah. No, no, no. It's a very it's a very. But I want to go back to the trust issue because. That's how I've been spending the last year and a half trying to figure out, crack this trust code. And I actually have come to the conclusion that national media never had trust and that you can go back to the civil rights movement.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I've had these conversations with Tom Brokaw and he talks about when he got – when he was – became – got assigned to the Atlanta Bureau. Essentially, he got moved from LA to Atlanta in the early to mid-60s to cover – The civil rights movement in Atlanta and the hatred that everybody locally had of NBC and any of the national reporters that did this.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And it was the local reporters confirming what national reporters were reporting that over time gave what I thought was sort of.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
sort of associated credibility or associated trust, meaning if you trust your local journalist and they're reporting the same thing, the national, then you might, all right, I don't know if I know that guy, but man, the journalists that I know in my community or that the journalists that my kid goes to the school with his kid, he seems to be reporting this. So there must be something to this.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And I've concluded that over the last 20 years, the gutting of local news is probably did the most damage to trust in media overall because we had no more character witnesses locally. We didn't have fellow journalists in the community covering from the community perspective what was happening in Washington.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And instead, it came across as if we were telling them what was happening in their communities locally. And nobody else in their community was was reporting it from their perspective. And I so I do I look at all this and think that that in order to truly fix this trust issue, we've got to reanimate and help rebuild local.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Look, whenever you've got somebody trying to push back, if you don't draw a line in the sand, they're going to keep coming back for more. All you have to do is read the children's book if you give a mouse a cookie and you will know how this will keep going. And in fact, it has. First, it was the Associated Press. Then it was Office Space.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I've always said that that's what I mean, what we are. I mean, I've always you know, I had my philosophy at Meet the Press is sort of one half of the job was explaining Washington to America. But I also viewed my job as explaining America to Washington. And and trying to have more of a conversation with with folks outside of Washington to get a better.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
You ask, why do people why do we want to know the personal lives? Because when I hear somebody's background, it helps me understand how they come to the conclusions that they come to. I've always said I view myself as a political anthropologist more than anything else.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
In that I'm always curious of different cultures and civilizations in this country and sort of, you know, why they vote the way they do. And there is regionalism and sometimes it has to do with religion and sometimes it just has to do with how the economy is made up in a certain area. Sometimes it just has to do with the historical migration patterns of a state or a district or something like that.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
There's a lot of us that have recently gone independent, and there's plenty of explanations of why suddenly being an independent journalist feels a bit more liberating and, frankly, a place to be that makes it a bit easier to practice journalism. Because I think right now, as you can see, traditional media is struggling to deal with Trump 2.0.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And so there's no doubt that, you know, You know, I've always said I was lucky to grow up in Miami and I didn't know that at the time because I grew up in Miami in the 70s and 80s. I always say I was born in Miami and I ended up graduating high school in Miami. And the point of that being is I was born in a small southern city.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I graduated high school in this dynamic place that was frankly had a huge, you know, today's problems in Miami are tomorrow's problems in America. And that's always been the case. We went through this racial reckoning between Cubans, blacks and whites in the 80s. OK, the rest of the country in some ways is having this now. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Now it's sort of deciding where different news organizations sit. And when a government is trying to pick its press corps, it's as if you were allowing a college football team to pick its referees. Imagine if the home team gets to decide, we're going to decide who the referees are. We're not going to have a fair – make this fair with the team on the other side. It is certainly –
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
We experienced the first massive wave of of of migration and immigration back back in the 70s and 80s. And we had an English only law in Miami that passed in 1980. It passed the county in Dade County. It's one of these things that people like, really? Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
But it also went away pretty quickly. The point. And so, you know, it turns out and I ended up growing up in a bipartisan community. And I had I'm thankful for that because it's made me better today. Like, I understand. I feel like I understand what's happening in the rest of America today based simply on that upbringing where. So I was sort of born into polarization.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Somebody born in New York City, I get that. I do think it's important to find out how people have lived their lives, particularly in reporters, in order to understand maybe how they're You know, because, you know, your lived experience is everything. You know, I always say you talk about bias. I always do this. I check my pulse. OK, we're born with original bias. Right. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Meaning where you were born, who you were born to, when you were born, all of those things. contribute to the life you end up living.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And all of that matters. And then all of that will have an impact on how you react, on how you cover stories. You know, for me, it's as simple as I always have had a bias towards the issue of Cuba. Why? I grew up with it. That's all. I grew up with it. So I was the one guy in the White House press room asking about Cuba policy when no one else would. It had nothing to do. Now, is that a bias?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Well, no, I think it is. It's a geographic bias. My point is we all have bias. The question is, is it political bias? Is it geographic bias? Is it economic bias? Is it gender bias? We can go on and on. But there's always a bias that sort of is back there. I always find it funny when somebody from the left says you're not fair or somebody from the right says not fair.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
It's like, well, where are you coming from? What's your definition of fair? Right. If you're a liberal, it's a definition of fair. Anybody that says you're right. Right. If you're a conservative.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
People say that that, you know, look, Megyn Kelly admits it. She goes, she took a side. And it's one way to build an audience.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
It's a lot easier to build an audience. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Let me ask you this question. I kind of think that the. The traditional media, mainstream media, legacy media, whatever term you want to use. I've had people say the word legacy media means you're taking a shot. So call it traditional media. Okay, whatever. You and I both know what we're talking about here. I think they've made a massive mistake. in not pushing back and not rallying around AP.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
frankly, un-American, right? It's certainly unconstitutional, but I think things that are unconstitutional, that that is synonymous with the phrase un-American. And I will tell you, I think traditional media made a gigantic business mistake by the decision not to stand by the Associated Press, and if anything, capitulate to the White House, because
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And when I say they, I mean the big, the owners of these media companies. The journalists are trying to push back, but their bosses are telling them to hold back, right? We know this. And here's what I think they don't fully appreciate in traditional media and the media execs. You've already alienated half the country on the right.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And now those that still trust you now have to ask, huh, are you holding back? Are you rounding the edges? You're not going to you're pulling a punch because you're afraid of backlash on your football deal. You're pulling a punch because you're afraid of backlash on your Hollywood deals. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I was just going to say, I think they have, you know, it's sort of like you've already alienated the right for one reason. Now you're going to alienate those on the left or in the center who are just looking, maybe came to you for other reasons. And now they're wondering the same thing. I mean, this is they've in a weird way seeded this turf to people like you and I, because. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
You know, nobody owns me and I'm not afraid. I mean, in some ways, I may have hurt myself by criticizing my my now former bosses in a very high profile moment. And it's simply because they didn't like the heat. Right. It had nothing to do with speaking or reporting without fear or favor.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And if traditional media organizations can't do that because their bosses don't have their back, I mean, this decision not to push back what they did to AP, all it has done is empowered the White House Press Shop to push even further, right? We know the rules of that stuff. You've got to draw a line. You've got to stand on some principles.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And right now, I don't think traditional media is standing up. And I say this, I want to exempt our fellow journalists in that room. A lot of them want to fight harder. Most of them have had bosses begging them not to.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Honestly, there's not other than finding out how the White House wants to spin stories. The White House press briefing is not a news source. It is simply a temperature check, right? That's all it is. It's just a thermostat.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
But it doesn't ever give news anymore. It's more of like, oh, that's interesting that they're going down that road, or it's interesting who they are not backing. It's all about having to read between the lines of what's not said or stuff like that. And it's pretty clear that, and we've seen this evolution, you know, You go back to Mike McCurry in the 90s and even early Ari Fleischer post 9-11.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Both of them tried to use the podium to deliver information a little bit more than to deliver spin. Right. And the further we got away, arguably from a national security crisis or anything like that, the further, the more it just became, frankly, a TV show for the press secretary.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
What it does is traditional media has already lost one part of the country, either fairly or unfairly on ideological charges. The folks that are still trusting and reading traditional media now have to ask themselves, hmm, how are they rounding the edges? Are they holding back reporting? Are they pulling their punches simply to maintain access?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Well, I used to say the real news is always based on your sourcing on Capitol Hill. If you want to know what's going on in the White House, go to Capitol Hill. They're the leakers. They're the best.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I completely agree. Read the room. Go get Shane Gillis. Just, you know, and the thing is that the White House Correspondents Association was smarter in them in the mid odds. Right. When we had a moment after 9-11. So one year they went and got Ray Charles. rather than a comedian. But the point is, you read the room, you know the president's going to come. Here's the thing.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Look, I'm not comfortable with the whole idea of a bunch of reporters dressing up in tuxedos while Americans are trying to figure out where they're going to get their next job.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I think it's in one of the most mediocre hotel ballrooms you could find on the East Coast, right? And the only reason they continue to use that place is that there's nothing bigger that's cheaper. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
um right i didn't know that no that's the reason why they stick to that hotel and that uh and that i'm not going to disparage any brands right now because for all we know one of them may want to support you or one of them may want to support me right now um but it is a I do think the whole spectacle. Right. What it became. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
It all started when a journalist back in the late 80s decided to invite. I think it was not Donna Rice, but the woman who was famous for, like, stealing classified documents and shoving them in her pants. And I think it was Vaughn Hall, I think was the name of the woman. And it sort of. snowballed from there. And then it suddenly became nerd prom.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
It wasn't this in the 70s and 80s and even in the early 90s. And then Clinton sort of Hollywooded it up. But what the White House Correspondents Association was pretty smart about doing was always trying to match the entertainment with the cultural, shall we say, comfort zone of the sitting president. And I think this was a mistake.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
OK, whatever you think, you know, like I said, go get Bill Burr, go get Shane Gillis.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Which would have reflected the other half of the country.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
A hundred percent. And they haven't. And I go back to there's no leadership in that. And there's no K. Graham. OK.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
There's no true somebody who isn't afraid to stand up and to sort of back up the journalists. You need a good owner. You need a good publisher. You need a strong publisher, strong owner. And right now that is, you know, I guess The Times is about the only one that hasn't been corrupted by journalists. What do you think about Lorene Powell Jobs, though?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Who's this? Could be. I mean, she's certainly doing it at The Atlantic and we're going to find out. Right. But I also, you know, The Atlantic in some ways is. is always been a resistance publication, right? It was founded as an abolitionist publication in the late 19th century. So I actually believe in many ways, this is their tradition. This is in some ways their brand.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And if they acted any other way, they would actually probably alienate their actual subscriber base. You know what I mean? This is, they've always, their principle has always been this, right? They're a little bit there. So I think it's in their ethos. When you look at them, and who knows, maybe Atlantic is going to be morphing into
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
a more, you know, on par with the Post or the Times or the Journal, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Are they pulling their punches simply to maintain their ability to work within the confines of the US government? And that's an uncomfortable place to be. I know if I were at one of these organizations, I would probably be a louder voice of complaint. And look, I was among the journalists back 10 years ago when the Obama White House attempted to block Fox from access to a pooled interview.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Well, there's no doubt that helps quite a bit. And let's go to that, because you did something that I think was very...
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
smart but at the same time can be a sore sperm which is you talked about how mike waltz was courting as many members of the traditional press corps as he could in order to make sure his name was out there because we all know how does donald trump decide you're somebody worth hiring if you do well in press interviews and that's and you sort of called him out just pretending he didn't know how jeffrey goldberg's number could have possibly gotten in there um
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And you're like, hey, this guy's been courting the press for a year and the mainstream press for a year and a half. Yeah. So I can't I think I know how this happened.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I just thought it was notable because no other journalist did it.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Hello there. Welcome to another episode of the Chuck Todd cast. My guest today is Tara Palmieri. Tara is somebody I've known as a colleague in political journalism, whether it was Politico, whether it's Puck. And she's most recently gone independent.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
What's a resource, though, that you don't have as an independent journalist that you wish you did? But it's frankly just that barrier is too big to build right now.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Yeah. I completely agree. And it's interesting. You know, there's no day off. Now, I would say I've never really experienced a day off on occasional Saturdays. You know, it's always right to me. If you're in if you're in the news business, you're kind of always on. You know, I've always said that way. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And I always say that sort of I think I have an idea of what it's like to be a doctor and that you're always kind of on call, which also means you've always kind of kind of be closer to sober than than not. Right. You know, because you never know. I remember the night of bin Laden. Let's just say a few of my colleagues were had had a little too much and still went on the air.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
We said we weren't gonna participate unless Fox was also included. Why did we make that decision then as leaders of the White House press corps back then? Simply because we knew someday the shoe could be on the other foot. and that you might have an administration that decided to leave us out and only allow Fox special access.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I had I'll never forget. I left.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
It was. Well, so it was it was the day after that. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Yes. There you go. OK, that it was the boozy brunches. Now, I remember I'm not a big drinker, but I had half a beer and I remember setting it down on my staircase. Right. And I came back at like 11 in the morning the next day and I finished that warm beer. You know, I felt like I had to do something to toast to toast the thing. But it is sort of one of those that there is no off day. How are you?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Have you even thought about preventing burnout? And if so, how have you thought about it?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
It's I'm going to ask you these questions that I get all the time, which is number one. What do you read every day?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I like his I like his tone. Yeah. Yes. It's very British to me.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Because it used to be Mike Allen's playbook.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Well, I'd argue that's why they charge so much money, because it's for a small... It is not meant to be for the masses, right? No. It is actually meant to be for those professionally working in and around Capitol Hill, pure and simple.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And it's been disappointing that Fox has not stood up more aggressively on behalf of their colleagues at the Associated Press or others, given the history of, and given the fact that traditional media companies stood by them when there was a time that they were going to get ostracized by a White House that didn't trust their reporting. But it seemed like a basic principle.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
What social media apps do you get info from? We're all having to be on these social media apps for various reasons because you have to be platform neutral. You're always looking for – I always say don't be a snob about any platform. But certain platforms –
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
That stuff's a commodity. I mean, I always said my job was never to... was never to report the news first. It was to explain the news first. Like I always thought I was in them. I was always thought I was in the business of the breaking why I used to call it, you know, explaining why is this happening now? Why is it happening? Well, you know, explain it. What is it all?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
You know, the whole what does it all mean? The news itself is, you know, is just that. Oh, what? Exactly. A lot of people do the what? Yeah. Not enough people do the why.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I was just going to say, I think you've earned your,
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
It was an easy decision for me and others to sort of sit by there. And to the Obama White House's credit, they certainly didn't want to pick a fight with all of us. So they capitulated. And I think the fact that. that you have leaders, the current leaders of traditional media, not willing to do this for a variety of reasons.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Well, I always say that. So what, what makes, you know, what, what makes a good journalist? Are you constantly curious?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And you strike me as somebody who's constantly curious and you assume you don't have, no matter what the story is, now there's something more. There's gotta be something more. There's gotta be something more.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I do. I think there's... So there's so many Occam's razors to this. If you told me that Jake Sullivan's contact list ended up in Mike Waltz's phones, it wouldn't shock me. Like, do you see where I'm going here? Like the accidental, you know, the transfer over.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Like to me, there's all sorts of scenarios that might be a lot more embarrassing that in some ways are worse because it's sort of an embarrassment. You know, the fact is, and what does not gotten a lot of attention is they never went through the first round of transition sort of security briefings, right? There really is, you know, was an entire sort of,
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
congressional, mandated, financial, you know, with that is funded to a presidential transition in order to make sure people are using secure communications to understand which apps are hackable and which aren't. And why, even though Signal is pretty good at protecting, if you're on a phone that isn't protected, then it doesn't matter how good Signal is as an encrypting thing.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
So I do think this is a story of their of the transition arrogance.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
that they all had in that they didn't for you know obviously trump's absolutely he it's clear to me that he thinks his entire first term was um undermined by this cabal of people all over the place maybe it was inside his own cabinet at times maybe it was inside his own west wing at times inside his own justice department right so he was so determined to prevent that that they sort of
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
went the other way, right? And didn't get any sort of security briefings, didn't get any of these things that they should have had. So, you know, I think that's something I'd be pursuing a lot more of as well.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
But he never has. I mean, the greatest myth of all was the idea that the guy in The Apprentice is was really Donald Trump. He's afraid. You know, one of the interesting things is how he's he actually would rather have two sets of White House staff than to have to fire anybody. My favorite anecdote on this goes back to 2011 when there were when he when literally.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Donald Trump had Roger Stone doing preliminary work for running for president. And then he also had Michael Cohen doing preliminary work for running for president. Michael Cohen didn't know what Roger Stone was doing. Roger Stone didn't know what Michael Cohen was doing. I think it was Sam Nunberg who was working with Michael Cohen at the time, who I think ended up stumbling upon
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Some of them are because they're owned by corporations that have other business before this government. The most obvious place to look these days is the Paramount merger and CBS. That decision by it looks like by CBS to find a way to settle this ridiculous 60 minutes lawsuit that Donald Trump filed rather than stand on principles and fight the ridiculous lawsuit.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
You know, and then they and literally Trump was going in one direction with one of his team. And, you know, and this is the Trump way. Right. He likes to pit people against each other. He likes to have all sorts of he never wants to be boxed in. He always wants an exit strategy, you know, whatever it is.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And so he's, you know, so in that sense, you know, I, you know, personality is personnel and is sort of covering this White House these days.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
So I would say about three weeks ago, it started to feel good. I was very nervous. I didn't know how much of my identity was wrapped up in NBC versus a mushroom trip. I used to say I used to say my first name was Meat. Right. And I did feel as if I had to speak for that institution first and that I was representative of that institution.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And I would be careful in what I say and careful in how I worded things. So you just don't know. This was the interest level in what I'm doing was was was was really high and it sort of was reassuring. And then you sort of see the abdication there. Of what our colleagues are doing.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And it's like, you know, look, if I'm going to be the middle aged man, you know, yet another middle aged man screaming into the void. Fine. I will be. I at least think I have the credentials to scream accurate things into the void and hopefully and hopefully contribute something. I mean, I I've always enjoyed politics because ultimately. I'm sort of old fashioned, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
We created politics to settle disputes without violence. Politics is not meant to be satisfactory to every side. Politics is meant to be a compromise. The whole point of it is compromise. And so I love that aspect of it. And I hate when we're sort of starting to erode it, right? We're not even engaging in the idea of, all right, well, let's sit down and see if we can
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
um negotiate a midpoint here because ultimately it's the only way anything succeeds right you try to do anything rash and there's going to be a huge backlash and it could very well be that that's what the trump administration is going to be experiencing i think we're in a period of backlash we have not voted for a president since obama 08 we've been voting against right we've been voting against things that's really good we don't want uh and we know what we're for um
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Let me ask something that I read about you that I didn't know until I read this about you, that you dual citizen, Polish citizenship.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
So I'm obsessed with Poland right now because I feel like they're on the front lines of trying to save NATO and trying to preserve this bulwark against Russian aggression. How much family do you have? How nervous are they? The Poles that I know are like. not only nervous, but man, they're ready to pick up arms and say, let's go. What's your experience?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
But by the way, you know, I mean, literally, I'll never forget this. There were the three most supportive, the two most supportive countries to the United States and Iraq were the UK and Poland.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
ABC did a similar thing with George Stephanopoulos, again, sort of in some ways undermining its reporters by by settling and leaving the impression that somehow they were in the wrong. and that they certainly didn't have a first amendment right in this case to be in the wrong, they did. And it certainly wasn't defamation by any stretch of the imagination.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
It just comes down from like Poland has been, as you just pointed out, they've been abused either in the east by the Germans or in the east of the east by the Russians or the west by the Germans.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
You know, one thing I learned.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
But I have a friend of mine who's... I have a friend of mine, older friend of mine who's Polish, and he he has been flying the Ukrainian flag. And he goes and he explained to me, he goes, this is actually a little uncomfortable for me at first. And I said, why is that? He says, because us Poles usually hate the Ukrainians. Like there's this rivalry, you know, there's this like inherent rivalry.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And it's just sort of like, oh, yeah, but. But the enemy of my enemy is my my brother. Forget friend. Right. And, you know, the thing they have in common is the the evil Russians. Right. And and it is really had I didn't know this. Tell me a little. What is there anything reasoning why Poles and Ukrainians had sort of this historical rivalry?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
She's not alone in that one. There's a lot of people who think that.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Every day, the big stuff is coming. The big stuff is coming. I mean, when you over-promise and under-deliver and, you know, you're going to break trust.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
in order to survive.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
But the point is, is all of these decisions by traditional media in not pushing back at the Trump White House, has not made them stop. If anything, they're getting more aggressive and more aggressive. And so when they ask themselves, why are they losing audience? Why are they losing trust? I would argue they've already lost trust with one half of the country.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
This young generation doesn't know. For me, I don't know why the trail of dead opposition leaders to Putin isn't enough to convince you this isn't a good place. Right. I do believe this is a weak country, but it's a weak country with nuclear weapons or as John McCain called it, you know, it's a gas station with nuclear weapons. Right. And it's sort of.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
But it is. And you have to you have to pay some respect. But it is not. It is. It is it is not a this is not a democratic society. This is not a free society. And you can you can you can feel the fear. You hear the fear. It is it is real. Let me ask you this. Would you travel to Moscow right now?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I think no, because I think we would we would be we would be targets.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Not a journalist. No. I mean, you know, the totally the most unmooring thing has been this issue with Russia for me. Like, wait a minute. What? Which side are we are we suddenly on? Number one. And then number two, this feeling of. does the president believe he's the president for all Americans or just the people that support him? And I think this is, you know, will he fight hard to get any U.S.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
citizen out of custody or only ones that voted for him?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I hope it's not tested. Obviously, none of us want to see anybody kidnapped.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
It's uncomfortable. Right. You just don't get rid of your principles that way. Look, if I'm Rob Blagojevich, fine. But I don't have the moral code of Rod Blagojevich, and I'll just leave it at that. All right. Where do everybody find you? Let's do it again. Subscribe to all the things. Get it all good. Let's see how your plugs are. Okay.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And that's an open YouTube, right? That's not open. Yes. a pay-for site?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And what do you get for the money? Why should somebody pay?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
No, why should somebody pay? Why should somebody sign up for premium?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And the more resources you get, the more likely you can travel more, the more likely you can be on the ground.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I think you're in the right place. Like I said, home and away. You know, we'll keep doing this. Keep going. Well, congrats to you. It's hard work.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Now they're gonna lose trust with the other half. because they're capitulating and they're gonna be raising questions, can you trust everything they say? So now you understand the appeal of frankly declaring your independence, right? We've seen politicians do it because they don't wanna be defined by the unpopularity of the Democratic Party brand or the Republican Party brand.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Sure. I mean, it is. And it's look, it's always easy to fit into a system, you know, but at the same time, it can be harder to do the job you want to do well. And I certainly did feel like it was harder to do the job I wanted to do. being constrained by the system.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I mean, I truly believe that our trust issues are not about you and I or how all this stuff. I really believe it's the lack of local brethren. I really do. And that is something that I want to help rebuild what- We'll see if, you know, I have a thesis. I think youth sports can bring America together and can create and can sort of remind people that communities are more than just red and blue.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And I do think that that's sort of we got to sort of get back to that place in some form or another. But in the meantime, hey, we're going to deal and cover politics as it is and not as it is, not as folks wish it were. We have to do that.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
All right, my friend.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Thank you. Thank you. Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Tara. I did not know that much about her background there in Eastern Europe. But it's always interesting to learn a little bit more about the journalists that I know many of you are going to be subscribing to and want to know more of. One thing about Tara, she doesn't hide anything.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And I think you can be sure that what you're reading is what she's hearing and what she's reporting. With that, I'm going to let this episode go. I'm going to save a question in the Ask Chuck segment for my next episode. In fact, my next episode is going to be heavy on mailbags. So get those questions in. AskChuck at TheChuckPodcast.com.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I already have a slew already, but I'm going to try to answer all of them. Hopefully a half a dozen. You know, I get a little windy with my answers, right, because I want to give you some pretty thorough answers. But I want to get at least a half a dozen, if not maybe even 10 questions answered in the next episode.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
So with that, I hope you enjoyed this one on sort of the state of media and where journalism is heading. And then the next time, it will be a slew of your questions, the stuff that's been on your mind over the last couple of weeks. With that, thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe and like and all those things that help keep this podcast up and running.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And I'll see you next time until we upload again.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
I think, for instance, it's been atrocious how traditional media has handled the Trump White House's attempts to kick the Associated Press, for instance, out of the press pool. The inability of the press corps to unite together to sort of stand with AP because the rationale the White House used to kick AP out of the press pool was. was unconstitutional.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Well, I think many of us journalists don't like to be defined by the unpopularity of bad decision making by by bosses of said media companies rather than being judged by the journalism itself. And I do think that we're in a period where there look, we're in the middle of recreating a new mainstream media.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
One of the things that I said is a Trump victory was probably going to be the end of this era of mainstream media. And some of it has to do with technology. You know, when Life magazine stopped being relevant, I don't remember a lot of articles going, oh, boy, there goes the end of mainstream media because Life magazine isn't relevant.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Life magazine stopped being relevant because moving pictures is a lot more interesting and easier to showcase than still photos. Still, photos are great, but moving pictures tell a richer story. And of course, we all want to see the pictures move more than we want to see the pictures not move. So there is part of this is technological.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And and so but but that doesn't mean we're not in the middle of something here. And I think that we see this sort of fragmentation of media. It's actually something similar that we've seen at the beginning of different technological advancements, right? When magazines first started, the ability to reproduce a photograph, magazines popped up all over the place.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And after a couple of decades, you started to see the consolidation of magazines. When radio stations and radio signals were first started to, you had radio stations pop up all over the place. And then over a couple of decades, you had consolidation. Television sort of became sort of morphed from radio and that consolidation continued until we had fragmentation. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Thanks to satellites and and and the like. And that gave us more. And we had some fragmentation and then we got some consolidation. And then here we now in the era of streaming digital video, we have fragmentation again. And at some point, I think we will have consolidation, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Whether it's Substack or YouTube, these are two of the sort of best examples of sort of, it's almost as if there was a shattering of mainstream media and pieces of it are showing up everywhere. Newsletters and Substack, video podcasts, hello, like this one on YouTube and in other places. Which inevitably will probably lead to some sort of curation consolidation of some point.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
The question is, what does that consolidation look like? When does it begin, et cetera? But this is only part of the story. And when I went about when I left Meet the Press, one of the first things I wanted to focus on was dealing with this trust in media issue. And to see, is this something that could be fixed from the top down or is this something that that was going to take longer to deal with?
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And the conclusion I came to is that the big sort of. we had sort of two big moments that I think that radically changed journalism, particularly political journalism, and put us in this position today where we have this distrust, where we have an information ecosystem where all politics is national. The first is the O.J. Simpson trial. And I'm going to get to the O.J. Simpson trial, but I want to
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Plant that flag right here and explain how O.J. Simpson sort of got us, you know, without the O.J. Simpson trial, maybe Donald Trump is an elected president. But the second big change and disruption arguably began when a man named Craig decided that classifieds ought to be free.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And I'm referring, of course, to Craigslist and the gentleman being Craig Newmar, a conversation I've had with him, by the way, and something that he's aware of. In fairness to him, had he known that Craigslist was going to lead to essentially the destruction of just about every local news organization with a circulation of 50,000 or less, he might not have pursued free classifieds.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
But as he says, guess what? Somebody else would have. Right. This is this is what happens. Right. Technology, things can change. Business models can evaporate and change overnight. You know, there used to be a robust block of ice industry until we figured out refrigeration and we didn't need blocks of ice in order to preserve our foods. So in many ways, this is sort of
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
You know, look, I'm not going to sit here and say they should protest over office space and all this stuff. But when the rationale for kicking AP out of the press pool is the way they describe the body of water that borders the states of Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas, the Gulf of Mexico, as the world calls it, and what America called it up until
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
A form of creative destruction, if you will, in the world of capitalism. So here we are. But what did that do? Well, the loss of local news, what it did was, you know, I take it with my first job. My first job was at the hotline. And we were a trade publication in the 90s that aggregated local political news.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Well, if I were trying to aggregate local political news today, I wouldn't have very many locally local sources to do that with. Most political coverage these days actually emanates out of Washington. Not that long ago, just a generation ago, it was the reverse. In fact, the folks that worked in Washington were all associated with a local or regional paper.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
In the early 90s, for instance, Knight-Ritter was a massive newspaper conglomerate. And they had a pretty large Washington bureau. And in essence, they had one journalist assigned to each paper that they had. The Philadelphia Inquirer was a Knight-Ritter paper, Miami Herald, Kansas City Star, St. Paul Pioneer Press, San Jose Mercury News, Fort Worth Star-Telegram, I could go on.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And there'd be one reporter in Washington dedicated to that newspaper. So what does that mean? Well, that meant when Congress passed a big law, take Joe Biden's large energy bill, the Inflation Reduction Act, as it was named, was really more of a of a of an energy bill more than anything else. But still.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Each one of those stories would have had a local lead to it, local explanation of how the local members of Congress voted, perhaps how some of the money would be spent locally, would be divvied up locally, what some of the local elected officials were hoping. They get out of this bill, you get my drift. And what did that do? Well, that informed local citizens about what their government was up to.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Well, fast forward 30 years and. The Washington bureaus are almost nonexistent for domestic news news organizations. The very largest ones have large Washington, D.C. presence. Some international news organizations do. But, you know, most of these sort of midsize news organizations around the country do not have a dedicated Washington presence anymore now. There's some startups trying to do this.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Our friends at Notice are doing some of these things for some smaller local startups and trying to become the Washington Bureau for them. Some college journalism programs do this sort of sporadically, semester by semester. So there's definitely some attempts to fill in the gaps. But when you look at the sort of the knowledge gap about Washington – I would argue this is probably the biggest one.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
And so this is why, you know, if part one of my attempt at starting a media company and going independent, my journalism going independent. Well, look, part one is that right. My public persona. Using whatever capital I have to try to bring some attention, whether it's important political analysis or frankly, what we're doing here in the media space.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
But part two of my enterprise here is to try to find a way to supercharge the expansion of local news. I think we need a thousand new community-based information sources. And I use the word information, not news. I think the word news has become polarizing, right? I have a vision here that if we can sort of rebuild trust on a local level, starting with
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
About about 60 days ago and Gulf of America, which President Trump renamed via executive order, the Associated Press made it clear they were sort of going to use both names at times, but mostly refer to it as the Gulf of Mexico, considering that they're an international news organization, etc.,
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
with news organizations locally whose North Star is to help you live your life. And that's always been the partnership between local and national. I've come to the conclusion that national media has never really had trust, that it was local, if you will, local journalists that gave the national media trust. My longtime colleague, Tom Brokaw, said when he first
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
got assigned by NBC to cover the civil rights movement from Atlanta. NBC wasn't trusted by locals. In fact, it was distrusted by locals. Anytime the national media came into the South to cover some of these confrontations over civil rights. But the local media, when their coverage matched what national coverage was doing, it was sort of almost like a character witness, if you will.
The Chuck ToddCast
How To Cover Trump As An Independent Journalist With Tara Palmeri
Local media was our character reference. And if local media reported something the nationals were saying, there would be a bit more trust and a bit more credibility given to that report. Well, we've lost our local character references. They're gone. And in many ways, if you're wondering why it feels like all politics is national, it's because we don't start from a local prism anymore.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
The governor there, Janet Mills, is pondering that race against Susan Collins. I'm one of those folks who thinks, you know, if you if you follow sort of New England Republican politics closely, there was a time when the Chafee's were impossible to beat in Rhode Island until finally a midterm happened in 2006 and Sheldon Whitehouse knocked off a Chafee.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And it's the last time a Republican held a Senate seat in Rhode Island. I have a feeling that could be what happens to Susan Collins. She's still probably the only Republican that can hold that seat, but eventually her party ID may be the reason she loses.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And I'll tell you this, if Paula Page being on the ballot just in one house race, I think that's actually a net negative for the Republican ticket. He's polarizing. He will bring out the wrong type of voter if you're a Republican. I think this really hurts Susan Collins with Paula Page sitting there. And frankly, I'm not 100% convinced.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
If you told me by the end of the summer, she's announced that she's not gonna run again, it wouldn't completely blow me away. I still think it's a little early in the calendar and that's still possible. So again, I gotta find my math here, right? So they need four seats. They'd have to win North Carolina, win Maine, hold all their vulnerable seats, those five seats I told you about.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And I'm actually pretty confident, barring a debacle here, They could do that. That's now more realistic than ever, especially when they've had Sununu and Kemp pass. So then you're looking like, where do they find two more seats? Maybe there's Texas. I'm skeptical on Florida and I'm somewhat skeptical about Ohio. I always say somewhat.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I think if the ticket is Ramaswamy at the top for governor, I think he's pretty polarizing. And I think he's more like Vance and he'll underperform an average Republican. Does he underperform enough? to bring down the ticket and to give a Sherrod Brown a shot? Maybe, maybe, we'll see. And I also, but here's another sort of counterfactual there in Ohio.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Sherrod Brown may be quite supportive of some of these tariffs of Trump. And can he message, can he somehow walk that line in Ohio? I don't know. So the thing that I would watch out for is I do think if Democrats want a path, they need one more, they need to put at least one or two more Senate seats in play. I'm gonna give you four states where I think
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
They're going to attempt to try to put two of these four in play, Mississippi, Iowa, Nebraska, and Kansas. The farm states, I've talked to you about this before, between the tariffs and the AID funding cutoff, farmers have been hit hard. Nebraska, Kansas, and Iowa are going to pay a price for the Trump economy that's steeper than most other states. Does that harm incumbents there?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And I'll throw one other thing at you. There's been interesting speculation that if when Donald Trump finally gives up on Pete Hegseth and the smart money in D.C. is when, not if he's going to do it on his timeline, not on the media's timeline. But we saw it already with Mike Waltz. The backup candidates, probably Joni Ernst. more than Tom Cotton. I know Cotton wants it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I think Laura Loomer has cottoned, has got cotton in her crosshairs. And I think Cotton becomes a non-starter for some of MAGA World. That's not the case with Joni Ernst, who sort of tries to find her way a little bit closer, you know, a little more MAGA adjacent, I think, than Cotton is. And I think the
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
It has made getting sometimes Republican support for various transportation projects that would be helpful. in the Northeast corridor, not necessarily helpful in other parts of the country. Um, it is tough to get bipartisan support for this sometime, but look, this is an important economic engine. The Northeast corridor is the gateway to this country when people come in.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
There's always, I think MAGA would love to be able to say a Republican woman was the first woman head of the Pentagon. So the point is, then all of a sudden you have appointment. Why is this speculation up and running? Well, Zach Nunn, who is a Republican member of Congress in the third district in Iowa, it is the swingiest of districts.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
It is, frankly, he's probably the most vulnerable Republican in Iowa if he runs for reelection. decided not to run for the open governor's race in that state, which a lot of people thought he would jump into that, and didn't say right away he's running for reelection. So, look, there's a lot of chatter here about Ernst, Pentagon, maybe she's not running it. Who knows? Is Nunn holding out for that?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
It's just something to keep an eye on. Look, it's not that long ago that Iowa elected Democrats statewide. But in the Trump era, it's been a lot tougher for them. But again, without Trump on the ballot, these are places. So as you can see here, I'm trying to create the best possible path here I can come up with with the Democrats, and they're still probably a seat or two short.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And that's why we're not there yet, but if they get competitive candidates in Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, Mississippi, if they can put two of those four realistically in play, Then all of a sudden the path is there. Still a long shot. You're still looking at the, you know, it's about I think the Indiana Pacers have a better shot at winning the NBA title than the Democrats do of of winning the Senate.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
But I think the Indiana Pacers have a boxer's chance to win the NBA title. So it's not out of the realm and it is slowly building. And you got to remember what this political environment is about. This is about Donald Trump these days. And the House, meanwhile, our friends at Down Ballot. I love this. The Down Ballot. If you don't subscribe to it, you should. It's a great newsletter.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
They have a great podcast. These are folks that they they are. They live and breathe data. They live and breathe politics. Yes, they come from stage left, but their reporting and data is just facts only. They did the presidential vote by House district. They had the first list of that out before anybody else. And what's fascinating here is that you had 116 Let me get this right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Make sure I have this right here in my numbers. I went through and basically it's races. Here's what it was. 116 congressional districts where the presidential vote was 55 or lower. There were 79 additional districts where the number was between 56 and 59. Why do I point that out?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
So out of 435, right, out of 435 congressional districts, less than 200, less than 200 had a presidential vote of 59% or less for either of the presidential candidate. That is the the most generous definition of competitive you can come up with. So you have just under 200 districts that are at least gonna be decided by less than 20 points. The spread between DNR will be by less than 20 points.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
So, um, it is something everybody, and of course it's really important when it affects me, right? Cause that's what that, that's why we've all started podcast in order to get our own grievances out of the way. So what grinds my gears is that, um, I semi tease. But the point is, it is a reminder of how government leaves an impression on the average person.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
There are more Democratic seats than Republican seats on this list. Now, there's a reason for that. Kamala Harris really underperformed in the blue states, and that underperformance trickled down. A lot of Democratic incumbents won by their lowest vote margins that they've won in a long time in places like Illinois, New Jersey, California, and New York.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
So while on paper it looks competitive, in theory, it's not going to be as competitive because Donald Trump isn't going to be on the ballot. But here's all you need to know. There are 42 Republican districts where Donald Trump got less than 55 percent of the vote.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
If you assume there's a three to four point bump when Trump's on the ballot for Republicans in general, that just shows you how easily that that if there is a damn way. First of all, the ceiling is going to be no more than 30 to 35 seats max. And I think that's being generous. But the path is there. And the path to winning the House for the Democrats is quite clear. It's quite easy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And in fact, not winning the House would be catastrophic for the party at this point, barring some unforeseen event that rallies the troops. So there's my early picture there. It's been a good first hundred days for the blue team when it comes to preparing for 2026, even though they've had more retirements.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
The lack of good recruiting on the Republican side and the intraparty fights that are already developing on the Republican Senate side, I think do put do suddenly give the Democrats a glimmer of hope that they can somehow put the Senate in play in 2026. Still a long shot, but it's like Indiana Pacers winning the title. Long shot. All right. So with that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
You've only been retired now, I don't know, I guess it's 100 days, right? What do we have at, 115 days? How does it feel?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
But you must miss a lot of it. I mean, you did it for three terms.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Let me put it another way then. Do you feel... In some ways, being in office can constrain you. I'm not saying you were constrained in what you said, but you've got things you have to do. You know, when you're a governor, there's stuff, there's the have to do's and the want to do's. And sometimes, you know, you can't do the want to do's because of the have to do's, you know?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
You may not be paying attention to politics, but you pay attention when you can't get from point A to point B. And this is the type of stuff when when people are paying attention to government not working, it means you have somehow interrupted their lives. Right. There's sort of two types of voters, those that pay attention and those that tune in on Election Day.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Look, I, you know, I will say this consequence, whatever you, you know, if you're trying to make everybody happy, you're probably going to make nobody happy. Right. There is this fine line. I do believe in incrementalism. Personally, I do believe in building coalitions from from the middle out. But there is something to be said.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
If you're trying to placate everybody, you're actually not going to make any progress. There is sometimes you've got to you've got to be willing. Look, I'm going over here and these people are going to be unhappy. But that that's so be it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
How much healthier? You know, I want to pause there a minute because I actually think that can make government in some ways more trustworthy and healthier. Meaning, look, you did something that at first may have looked like it was a 55-45 decision. Getting the voters to affirm something the legislature, the governor did, usually strengthens that law into sticking, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Like, you know, there's a reason why in Washington, this Washington, the other Washington, you always want a little bipartisanship for big bills because you don't wanna give whiplash. You don't wanna be undoing it every four years. In some ways, is it better that you were challenged and that you won at the ballot box rather than never being challenged at all with those laws?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Anything over 60 these days is huge.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Well, you couldn't. I want to go to that. You had a constituency that wanted this change. I mean, in some ways, you couldn't have forced this change if you had a constituency that was going to fight you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And if you're disrupting those that tune in on election day, they're the ones that can turn election days into blue waves or red waves, depending on who is in power. And that brings me a little bit as much as I'd like to wax eloquently about the Alcatraz decision. I will just say one thing about Alcatraz and the movie business, this idea of tariffing all movies that come from overseas.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Explain to people how it works.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
For the right to do that. Yeah. A lot of communities, you got to pay people to just pick up your trash.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Take that money, it goes back to citizens. How do you prevent... So, you know, you have a power grid surge and all of this, you know, these are the fears that get thrown at people about these policies that if you put this cap on carbon, either one of two things is going to happen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
The cost of energy is going to go up because there's a limited amount of potential supply or there just won't be enough when there's a surge, whether there's a heat wave or a cold wave or something like this. Explain to me the provisions that I'm sure are in this bill that you have that sort of deal with sort of outsized events that could cause surges in cost or surges in power use.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Where are you on nukes? It depends on the climate change activists you talk to when it comes to nukes.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
If you could sort of prove safety and prove that there's-
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Note when they came out. I don't think Donald Trump thought his Meet the Press interview went very well. I think two things really stayed sticky and I think will stick to him from that interview in particular. Asked about following the Constitution, I don't know, even though he actually takes an oath of office that says he promised he was going to defend and protect the Constitution.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I don't understand why people are against more options. Like, why would you want fewer options? And this is something where this has been a head scratcher for me. I thought of conservative government, at least when I grew up, as having less involvement in picking winners and losers. And this is a case where the government's coming in and saying, no, we're going to impact the market.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
We're going to warp the market, if you will, in favor of one part of the industry over another. Right. And of course, that's been the mind boggling thing to me. And I'm sure you've probably thought about this, too, which is where the small government people, where are the free marketeers, you know, just sort of let let let the market decide on these things. And they're not there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And I'm I'm wondering where that constituency has gone.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I used to joke in my meetings with my Meet the Press staff. Remember, logic has been banned. We're banning logic because if you look at this administration or you look at his governance through logic, there is none. I mean, the only the only through line is his, quote unquote, gut. But let me that gets me to.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
He said, I don't know, to that when it came to following the Constitution. And then he continues to double down on this idea that he's going to play Mr. Scrooge. And, well, you know, $2 is enough. Well, what about the person that can't even afford the two dolls? What about that family? And what's he going to say to them?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
to another point that you wrote in the Guardian, in your op-ed, because I've had this question, the question you opened your op-ed with, I've had from a friend of mine that lives overseas. And he's essentially, why aren't people in the streets?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
That's been like the, probably of the non-political people, just sort of, these are not super highly charged, but people that live overseas that pay attention, obviously pay more attention than the average global citizen. And my explanation is exhaustion. I say, you know, the best explanation I have is, is there are some people who think, well, we tried that the first time and he came back.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Now I would argue, well, and that's why he didn't win a second term. And that's why all those things, but that is my best explanation. Exhaustion. What's your explanation?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
So we don't- Let me pause you there. There's some people that believe our democracy is only about 60 years old, that it wasn't really until the Civil Rights Act that everybody got to participate.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
No, I may not hear you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
It is an unusual and watching sort of former Republicans who do not like the idea of government deciding how many of anything you can have. You can, you know, sort of this idea. This is this is what communism is about. You let's limit the resources. You will hold back. You will decide, you know, hoard and
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I work with a group called- Just letting people know, we're taping on Tuesday, April 29th, because I always like the timestamp. So on April 30th, you guys are going to release this report.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
You know, it's funny you put in those terms.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I have a friend of mine who is an ivory tower guy, teaches at UMass Amherst, has been paranoid about America becoming hungry until Liberation Day. And he goes, you know, He goes, I'm now finally feeling better. And I said, why is that? You must not have any money invested in the stock market. He goes, no, no, no. He goes, it's not that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
My son and all the husbands and sons out there who can't wait till Saturday or Friday night to try to pull this off for the mothers, the grandmothers. Hi, mom. And all the other special moms of all sorts in your life. So keep that in mind.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
He goes, because I know how we stop authoritarianism in this country, make people poor again. Like, you know, that the economy, if he's mismanaging the economy, he's not going to be able to get away with Everything else. I mean, that's sort of a a dark way of trying to find optimism.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
But do you do you concur with that conclusion that that once people feel the economic impact and suddenly they'll start putting all this together?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
No, and that's the worst part of this, right? That's the worst part. I mean, I hate feeling, you sit there, look, I hope he's right. I hope he can bring manufacturing and it'd be great to see all these jobs. And yes, but I don't know if he understands how civilizations work. Like this toothpaste is out of the tube. Globalization is...
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I mean, this has been the greatest 80-year run in human history. More people brought out of poverty around the globe. I mean, I sit here and it's like, you're never putting this back. The small business owner in Nigeria who can export to the United States or the EU and make money is never going to say, oh, I guess now I got to go to economic nationalism and sell people here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
That isn't how it's going to work.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
What size port are you guys? I mean, it's one of the biggest ports.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And, you know, you get two pieces, two loaves of bread for this family of six, but a family of four gets one loaf of bread because that's the rules from central from the central government. It is a really weird place for for President Trump to be going. And it only, I think, invites more problems for the Republicans as a whole in general.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
You know, it's funny you bring up those three entities and I would throw in the heads of traditional media companies who've not stood by the Associated Press when it was a blatant First Amendment violation. And everybody is using the same excuse. well, it's not gonna mean anything. And the guy at Paul Weiss said, people were trying to poach our clients.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
You do have universities going, well, have you looked at them? Don't look at us. It's this weird, it's like now we all, I frankly have a better understanding of how of how things happened in Berlin and Munich in the 30s, right? It was fear and survival kick in and sometimes people get selfish, right? And it's like, I've got to survive.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And if I have to sacrifice you to survive, at least I stay in the room and maybe I can fix it later. I mean, I feel like what we're watching, at least in the legal community, the media community and the university community.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And again, it continues this uncomfortable ideological realignment that's taking place inside. what we're supposed to call our conservative party, but we've been going through this. What is a conservative? The first word matters here, conserve, which is less government. You conserve the amount of, and in some ways, sure, he's trying to whack government with the sort of the chainsaw and doge,
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Fascinating hypothetical question to ask.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Yes. Well, you know, I want to actually because, you know, that's correct me if I'm wrong. Did you do your NAFTA vote that year, too? And you voted for it, correct?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
That's right, because you were part of it. And this is what I want to get at, Trey, because this is the uncomfortable truth about open markets and free trade. Our country is so big and diverse that there are regions that saw immediate wins and there are regions that saw immediate losses. And we can talk about what we could have done better to help in different regions.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
But when I think about the trade situation and the issue with tariffs and the Sunbelt has become a financial juggernaut, right? And a manufacturing juggernaut. And that's due to arguably these open trade deals that have allowed foreign manufacturers to build plants in the United States and things like that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
So when I think about the Democratic Party's debate about sort of how to win back working class voters, and certainly the issues in Michigan, Ohio,
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
wisconsin iowa i'm bringing up some former swing states and as well as potential swing state you know where they lost washington gained nevada gained texas gained arizona gained right the sunbelt gained how do you have that conversation with the american public right it was a net positive nafta was a net positive but there were people that lost well first off um
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Well, that's why you have to do it on a podcast. I mean, I hate to say this, but I couldn't do this in our eight minute interviews and meet the press governor, right? You know, because you can't have this and this is the beauty of this format, but it's also the, I think the, why our political debate is such garbage.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Governor, I mean, he's handed his leverage. Whatever leverage the United States did have, he handed it away to everybody. Even India. India's sitting there going, oh, how badly do you need a trade deal, Donald Trump? Oh, you need a trade deal that bad?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
You don't get to cash out there, Donnie.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
But he also wants to use weaponized government when it suits him. He wants to strengthen government when it suits him, decide who gets a doll and who doesn't get a doll, decide who when when there's a military parade for his birthday and things like that. So what I would point out is I think it is not an accident that by Sunday evening he needed a couple of shiny metal object type of stories.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
But balance out. Look, you were in Iowa. You campaigned in Iowa. You know, all those towns used to be Maytag, used to be this, used to be that. You know, my my my dad's sister lived in Monroe, Michigan, used to be Lazy Boy, used to be Monroe shock absorbers. Right. Right. But Washington state's benefited quite a bit from increased exports around the world, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
So, you know, look, part of me thinks people should have just moved out of the Midwest more and we should probably have more domestic migration. But set that aside, there's still a, you know, that constituency wants one thing and that's how you win presidential elections. So how do you strike the balance?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
So how could you have slowed down? I mean, change is hard to, you know, this is the problem with trying to control a free market, right? That you can't always control your hockey stick moment.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Let me talk about climate change. You made it the centerpiece of your presidential campaign. In some ways, you were the only one that really grounded your campaign in a substantive issue. And maybe that was given the moment we were living in with Trump and all that stuff that in some ways I found it noble, but maybe you were swimming upstream.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And yet I would argue it probably gave you even more momentum to do some things in your state. But what did you learn from trying to from trying to create an urgency around this issue, that government should be involved in the solution.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And Alcatraz is one of those shiny metal object stories, as well as somehow attacking Hollywood that would feed his base. And at the same time, perhaps, you know, do his little Jedi mind trick on the news cycle. Pay no attention to what I said about the Constitution. Pay no attention to what I said about about restricting the amount of toys that come for Christmas. Instead, look over here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
What did you learn in your conversations with voters that says, you know, when you talk about these issues, talking about them this way, not that way, or what advice would you give to other politicians who want to get voters to understand the urgency better on their terms? Not necessarily on my terms or your terms, but on their terms. What have you found to be most effective?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I love a good fish story, and I love a good campaign story.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
You were fired up, I bet, right? First event, you're like, no.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Not sure I'm in the right spot for a caucus goer, huh? You were looking for a new caucus captain.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Look over there. Welcome to the rock. So for me, I look at the Alcatraz. and the movie business as simply distraction items. And this is what he's quite good at, right? This is what makes him, he's so wired for a short attention span world. He has sort of built, I always said this, he's been built this way his whole life, our media environment just caught up to his short attention span.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
One of the things that I've wondered about that I'd like to see more politicians lean into, particularly locally, is the adaptation issue. Right. Which is no matter what happens, rather than debate whose fault it is, we all have to live with this new environment. We all have to survive and hopefully thrive in it. Have you found if you start with sort of.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
hey, are you tired of the high cost of insurance for your home because you live this close to a body of water? Well, here's why it costs more to live this close to a body of water. I mean, and this is why maybe we need to build a barrier or maybe we need to do this. Is is that a better way in with some people? You know, it's like my daughter did it. She's a marine science major.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
She did an internship in Escambia County, which is in the panhandle of Florida. It's a pretty conservative area. And they told him never to use the phrase climate change. Talk about fishing. Talk about conservation. Talk about making sure you have plenty of good places to fish. Why do people move to Florida, you know, for the outdoors? Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
figuring out how to speak essentially native languages, no matter where you are in the country.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Look, the insurance industry is going to force government's hand here, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Look, you're at Bainbridge Island. This is a nice place to live where you are. I'm going to guess that the insurance is higher than any property tax you pay.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
There is a culture of fear. among Republicans that's speaking out. I mean, retribution is real.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I mean, the people that got where that Laura Loomer went into his office, it was like anybody who had worked with Mike Pompeo or Tom Cotton were essentially escorted out of the Pentagon. Just who they worked for. I mean, that's right out of, I mean, come up with your hypothetical from Europe in the 1930s. That's right there. We're just doing a purge. You're associated with my political enemies.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
You know, this dawned on me, actually. You did lose. And I wonder... if losing made you a better representative later and a better governor later, because you were willing, you almost, the fear of losing, well, you'd already experienced it. So what's there to fear? Like, how much do you think that gave you more confidence in staking out a little more aggressive positions governing?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Well, welcome to the first full week of May. Here's the most important thing you need to know about this week. Sunday is Mother's Day, sons and husbands. Sunday is Mother's Day. You know what that means. You still got time to do all the delivery type things once you're hearing this podcast. This is a public service message for myself.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And now he is what is mainstream is fits right into Trump's mindset. So he sort of, the moment grew to him. He didn't meet the moment, the moment met him. And here we are. So that's the way I sort of compartmentalize those two. And look, this isn't easy. The decision of how do you cover Alcatraz? It's a ridiculous story. It's too small.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
No, it's just something that just sort of dawned on me as they get here. Because you did go places, frankly, that I think other statewide governors would have. I don't know. Let me get my second term. Maybe I'll try it in my second term. Maybe I'll try it in my... You and I know plenty of those politicians on both sides of the aisle where they're... You're right. It's the accumulation.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
But there's something about losing and then winning again that's got to... It's like... bungee jumping the first time or skydiving the first time. If you didn't die, you're not afraid of it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
All right. Let me let you, everybody wants to debate about what the Democratic Party should be doing right now. Weigh in for me. What would you, what would you be, would you be looking for new leadership? Are you looking for new leadership? Are you looking for the current leadership to step up, what's your preference?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
It's a good title for a movie.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
You don't have one until there's a nominee. I mean, that's just true of both parties.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Anything on an island is a big, you know, going to cost a lot of money. This is, you know, I have no doubt in his head. He's just excited by the idea of America's worst criminals being, you know, just a few miles off the coast of San Francisco, his favorite city. Wink, wink. But I thought I would focus before my guest on this episode is going to be Jay Inslee.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
What did you learn from Canada? I find it, because here's something I've, I took, I don't want to overlearn, but I'm intrigued about. Mark Carney is kind of a technocrat, right? You know, this is a central banker. You know, he wouldn't be somebody, even six months ago, you would have designed in a lab to say, this is the next leader of the Liberal Party of Canada.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And, you know, especially we see this picture of Trudeau, who was just a very charismatic figure. Certainly he had got polarizing at the end and unpopular.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And, you know, I'm I'm one of those people who believes that we the American voter usually picks a new president based on, you know, that has the characteristic that the last president didn't have, whatever that is, you know, from Obama to Trump. Right. That's I would always say it's a little bit of the showmanship. Right. They thought Obama was almost too nuanced.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
They wanted they wanted everything's black and white and binary and a little bit of that. Obama was different from Bush. Bush was sort of black and white, good and evil. He was Mr. Gray. Right. But Bush was, you know, he had a distinction with Clinton having to do with the personal character issues and people didn't like that. Right. So H.W. Bush couldn't feel your pain. Bill Clinton could.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
My point is, is that we do seem to do that. Right. So what do you imagine is the characteristic this country is going to want to have post-Trump? What's the big one? Is it empathy? Is it technocratic expertise? What do you imagine three years from now that sort of forget issues? What's that characteristic that, hey, we need this kind of president this time?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Wasn't it? It's astonishing. In 100 days. Look, I have to say, I've never seen somebody. You can't say he's not had an impactful 100 days. He even took ownership of this economy politically. It's just stupid. He could have been blaming Biden for this economy for another six months to be totally cynical about it. But he said, no, no, no. I'm going to make it my economy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
When I'm on a boat, you know what I don't like on a boat? When it's extremely active. Because I'm probably yakking over the side. Sorry.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I was just going to say that a lot of a lot of you're you're actually in the minority, I think.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
In fact, the next couple of days, I'm going to have governors from both sides of the aisle. I've got Jay Inslee coming up, got John Kasich coming up, two guys that have run for president, two guys that were successful, one a three-term governor, one a two-term governor. You know, there was it wasn't when I first started covering politics, Washington state was a swing state. It has moved sharply.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
You debated some of them.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
You know, before I let you go, I'm obsessed with I think there's some structural updating, you know, in the same way we had an infrastructure bill because we needed to update roads and bridges. I do think we have to update the democracy to meet the needs of the 21st century.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
So one of the things that I'm I just did a TED talk on this. I'm obsessed with this. You served in Congress. I'm curious what you think. I kind of think we need to uncap the House. I think the House. There's too much distance between the House and the people at 800,000 per congressional district.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Do you know that that would that the 14th largest city in America is Austin and it doesn't even have a population of 800,000? I don't think we should have 435 major cities as congressional districts, which is essentially what we've done. But I've had plenty of people say to me, yeah, but why do I want twice as many members of Congress running around Washington? Why do I wanna have that?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Now, I think it would bring democracy a bit more local, have people would be a little bit more connected. They might actually know their member of Congress or know somebody who knows them. You know, that's one thing. That's one thing I'm at. You know, I'd like to get rid of partisan primaries. I like what you guys do in Washington state. I like what California there's different ways to do it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I look forward to President Trump going on Truth Social and wishing all the mothers, even the losers, loser mothers and the hater mothers, a happy Mother's Day. I'm sure that will be coming. coming quite soon, but I thought if I can do anything for you as a public service, it is that. I actually took a bit of a quick weekend respite. So what did that really mean?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I think it's a very I think you have more people participating in primaries because of the way you guys do it. What are some structural changes you'd like to see?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I know. As a species. I know it is. But I really believe it. I mean, it is what the founders intended. They wanted they wanted a House of Representatives that was nurses, that was labor, day laborers. They weren't interested in it being now it's a club. It's a country club. You need $10 million in cash to get there. you know, either access to it or have it on your own.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
That's not the people's house.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
A lot of the coast has moved sharply back to 1992. California was a swing state, was considered a swing state. Yeah. But what Jay Inslee did three terms in a row, I believe Washington State right now has the longest streak of one party rule for governor going. He had certainly had a very consequential 12 years, ran for president on a single issue, climate change. It's an interesting conversation.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I mean, that is one of my benefits of this is that you would actually make it, it would make the Electoral College, it would take Wyoming's advantage on voting for president and would cut it by two thirds.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
It goes from six times to two and a half times of California.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
It's too easy to find your voters.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Well, they've self-sorted, you know. They've self-sorted. In fact, I'm always hesitant to say, you got to get rid of gerrymandering. I'm like, hang on, we might need to gerrymander competitive districts like that, you know.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
You know, we got, it's a mighty fine constitution. You know, I sit here and I look at that thing and it's like, the founders had a lot of problems. We know this, but boy, it was a pretty good blueprint. All we have to do is follow it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Well, we've self-sorted. The only problem I fear is that, you know, the people listening to us already are aware. It's like, how do we inform those that are busy lives, you know, and that's for another day.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And he certainly has his belief on the role that the Democratic Party and government ought to play in this issue of climate change. And he certainly has some strong feelings about Donald Trump. I won't tease the John Kasich interview that that'll be coming up later in the week.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
All right. We'll go to Jay Inslee's house and have a raucous Thanksgiving. Come on over. Hey, it's great to talk with you. Great to catch up, sir. Thank you for caring about democracy. Keep talking. All right. And let's get those supersonics back in Seattle. I'm working on it. I know it's got to happen. It's got to happen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Yeah. OK. Thank you. You got it. Well, I hope you enjoyed that interview with Jay Inslee. Something tells me that. Did you get the impression he's still going to run for something? I did. I don't know what that something is. Who knows? Maybe there's a Senate race in his future. Maybe he's ready to be a cabinet secretary if there's another administration that leans to the left. We shall see.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
But he didn't strike me as somebody that was retired, as you could tell in that conversation. All right, let me get through a few Ask Chucks. Ask Chuck. All right. First one, I'm curious to get your take. This one, let me read the name here, comes from a fellow Todd, Todd Corning, Todd J. of Corning, New York. Corning, the home of Corningware, all that stuff. Here's his question.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I'm curious to get your take on the impact that registered independents play in our current political divide as a left of center pragmatist or incrementalist. Take your pick. I switched from D to an I as a protest against what I saw as a leftward lurch within the Democratic Party. By the way, I think you're not alone.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I think the increase of the last four years on the independent numbers come almost exclusively from stage left. In the first Trump term, it most exclusively came from stage Y. But here's what he asked. Lately, I'm wondering if this was a mistake.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I suspect that many newly minted independents have switched parties for similar reasons and that in states with closed primaries, such as my home state of New York, switching parties has only made it more likely that an ideologically extreme candidate becomes the nominee. Ding, ding, ding, ding.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I'm wondering what you think of the best way forward would be both for me as a voter and our nation as a whole when it comes to nominating more moderate candidates who could better bridge our political chasm. By the way, I love what you're doing and I never miss an episode. Keep it up. P.S. I think Todd makes a better last name than a first name. Appreciate it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
But because I have a couple of governors who are very camp, you know, sort of political guys, I thought this would be a good time to sort of take the temperature of campaign 2026, if you will. As you know, the last time we chatted, I threw in a couple of other Democrats that had a very strong first hundred days, in particular, Abigail Spanberger, who is the president
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Somebody who has lived with two first names. Of course, we used to joke at NBC that we were the home of the two first names. of the two first name personalities, Chris Matthews, Brian Williams, Chuck Todd, David Gregory, right? A bunch of us had first and last names that could be interchangeable. Look, this is, I think partisan primaries are a virus in the country.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I think partisan primaries are why we have Too much polarization in Congress. Essentially, the average Democratic voter is much closer to the center than the average Democratic elected official, and the average Republican voter is much closer to the center than the average Republican elected official. Why is that? Because our primary system
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
essentially tries to keep you, Todd, Jay, from actually voting. They don't want you voting. They want you independence voting, right? They want hard partisans voting only. I think it's a huge problem. I think one of the bigger changes we need to make is to open the voting to all we need to have I'd like to have more predictable times when primaries are held.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Look, states should be able to hold when they want to hold them. But maybe we create sort of quarterly national primary days where if you're going to hold a primary in April, you're going to do it in this second Tuesday. If you're going to hold a primary in May, you'll do it in this second Tuesday of May. You know, some sort of predictability of schedule so people remember when there's voting.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
They're not shocked. I mean, you've had such a mess over the last four years in New York State. You know, the year AOC won her primary, it was the first time that they had ever held – they separated the state primaries from the congressional primaries. There were actually two different primary days in 2018. And so she won in a much, much lower turnout situation.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
In fact, I don't know if she wins that primary. If AOC is ever in Congress, had New York held its primaries normally combined where the state offices and the federal offices shared the same primary date for some ludicrous reason, that cycle they did not. And, you know, it's it's I always say butterfly effects of history. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
one of the most dynamic and interesting and most consequential new members of the Democratic Party, won arguably thanks to a fluky decision to split the calendar in some weird way that New York did to create the primary system that they created. So Look, you're not wrong.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I think that the more people that vote in primaries, the less ideological winners you will have because most people are not ideologues. Most people are where you are. You may have a preference of left versus right. You may consider yourself more of a social liberal or fiscal conservative, however you want to look at it. But you're somewhere between the 30 yard lines.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
There are not many people between the zero and the 30 on the left and ditto on the right. So, you know, I do think we need to get rid of partisan primaries. I think that is just a massive decision. And yes, I'm a strategic voter. I'm lucky in the state of Virginia. There are no there is no party registration.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And I get you know, I can't if both parties are holding a primary for the same election, I have to pick a side. But for the next election, I can pick the other side. You don't ever have to. So I always vote in the most competitive primary. Hard stop. Right. I want my vote to count. I want my vote to matter.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
now the clear favorite to be the next governor of Virginia. And there's a variety of reasons for that. One is I think she ideologically fits. She's much closer to the center, which is, I think, in these light blue and light red states is where the Democrats have to be if they're going to have a chance to successfully win statewide, number one.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And so I vote in primaries left and right, depending on what's the competitive primary in a given cycle in a given year. So. It's I feel lucky that way. I would hate I think New York state is the most undemocratic state for especially for supposed blue state. The the ridiculous rules that still take place, the petition signatures that are necessary to get on the ballot.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
It is it is a bit arcane the way New York does holds its elections in general. So, look, you're not wrong on that. But it's a system, I think, that that needs reform. needs to be changed. And I think you're not wrong in how you're thinking that if you wanna say, it's like, for instance, living in the district, if you live in Washington, DC,
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
You should whether you're a Democrat or not, you almost have no choice but to register as a Democrat if you want to have any say of who's going to hold office. That's true in Idaho. If you're a Republican, there's no use registering as a Democrat because all the primaries are going to basically decide in the Republican primary.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
So I think you have to I do think sometimes as a voter, you have to be strategic in your voter registration. Second question here is an Arlingtonian. Thank you for the local political shout out here. What do you think will be Governor Youngkin's legacy? He made such a splash when he was elected, but it's seen he hasn't accomplished much in Richmond.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
His failure to bring a major sports franchise to Virginia exemplified his lack of understanding of local politics. Also, what is having the commanders move back into D.C. mean for the city? Do you think Mayor Bowser and the D.C. City Council can pull it off? Go O's. Douglas. Oh, so he's a sneaky Marylander.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
You know, Douglas, are you one of those guys that still tries to say, oh, it's during the Star-Spangled Banner? You know, that was a big, when I first moved to D.C., the only baseball team in the area was the Orioles. This was in the 90s. And I remember the first time I heard that, you do the national anthem and it's like...
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
or the home, and whenever you hear the or the home, and then it's O's, there would always be this big O's, just like in Atlanta, you know, at the home of the brave, you're braves, you know, they get all excited.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Well, the best thing that has happened about the downfall of the O's over the last 20 years and the rise of the nationals in general, and sort of the DCification, the DMV really becoming its own identity is I go to D.C. sporting events now and I rarely hear somebody saying, oh, during the Star Spangled Banner. Anyway, just thought I'd get that rant out of the way.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Look, I think Youngkin's legacy was winning, was winning. Right. That that's that's the legacy that he was able to show that that Virginia still is a competitive state. If you're not a MAGA Republican. Right. But you're right. I think his his big goals he's not been able to achieve. It's some of it is you could say it's his fault. Some of it is the fault of the national atmosphere.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I think he'd probably govern a bit more centrist if he didn't also have one eye on running for president someday and still wants to be sort of MAGA adjacent. He certainly was flirting with being Trump's running mate. So I think he kept a bit more of a conservative. You know, it's funny. The last Republican governor before him was Bob McDonald.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And number two, government workers are just really ticked off at this administration. Whenever government workers are fired up, to vote, that's usually bad news for Republicans in the state of Virginia. And so that was obviously one of the reasons there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
But Bob McDonald wanted to be the running mate and acting more moderate was the way to do that. And I think and he got a boy, he got a big transportation deal done, something that hadn't been done in a couple of decades. That was a big deal. So he had a legacy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Obviously, he ended up getting sort of a taint on him having to do with some personal graft graft issues with some donors and the use of the governor's mansion. but he did get something big done, but he was sort of incentivized to move to the middle a little bit. He ran more as a conservative and ended up governing as a middle.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Youngkin ran more as a moderate and ended up drifting a little bit more to the right because I think he's still hoping to have a future in the Republican Party. So I think his decision to keep one eye on running for president someday in Donald Trump's Republican Party has probably constrained him from, I think, having a bigger legacy as a governor here. But hey, guess what?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
The election ain't over yet. I mean, his term isn't over yet. He's still got still got one, arguably one more year to do that. All right. But thank you, Douglas. And I'm rooting for the O's. But if I were you, are you mad at Rubenstein? My buddy Jason Lockham for a man that guy is on fire when it comes to his anger at how the O's have not spent money on free agents and on pitching. But I digress.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Last question I will take for now is from Jack Vista, Jack A. from Vista, California. And he writes, Hey, Chuck, despite not being a Catholic, I'm always fascinated by the conclave. You and me both, brother. Over the years, I've enjoyed your interviews with George Weigel.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Whenever some big news out of the Vatican came and was wondering if you might have him on all things, Pope politics interview, whether it's before or after the white smoke, I devour it. Jack, I am. Ashamed to admit that I hadn't thought about Weigel until you wrote. So I want to give you all the credit in the world. George, if you're listening, we're coming to booking. I'd love to have you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
He's right. George has got a unique understanding of the politics of the College of Cardinals. And let me just say here. Yes, I saw the movie Conclave. And I thought the ending was stupid. And I'll just leave it at that. I'm sorry. I was so... That movie was 80% awesome. And... You know, I... I get what they were trying to do and they thought it was an interesting twist.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Look, right now in campaign 2026, the biggest news over the last 96 hours was another recruiting failure for the Republicans when it came to some key Senate races, specifically what's going on in Georgia, where the governor there, Brian Kemp, passed on a bid to take on incumbent Democratic Senator John Ossoff.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
It just left a weird taste in my mouth. I don't know how else to put it. I don't want to be a spoiler. I know a lot of people are watching it, but it was so good. And it captured what I... Look, I still... This is my dream.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
is to be you know to watch this happen to watch the politics of the college of cardinals i've always envisioned it like the iowa caucuses where there's people like we'll go in certain groups and then they have these little conversations and then they vote again and here's this so i in my head i've treated it sort of like the vatican caucuses you know if you will
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
But here's something that I've learned from all of all of the experts I've spoken with over the years since I got to cover two conclaves as a professional journalist is that nobody knows anything. This is one of those things that the conclave works its will.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And, you know, it is you know, these are these are things that I feel like 40 years from now, we'll learn about what happened in this conclave that is about to begin any day now. So I look forward to Weigel. I'm sorry for those of you that love the movie Conclave that I'm that I that I'm.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
giving it my, you know, it's a two and a half stars for me because I love the concept, loved 80% of it, thought the twist was worthless, didn't need it, wasn't necessary, could have done it a hundred other different ways. But the twist really sort of was like, what? Really? We're going there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And it's like, anyway, again, I'm trying to be respectful of not being a spoiler on this, but let's just say I was bummed because I thought it's like having this incredible flight. And then you just sort of land without wheels and you just sort of crash land. And that felt like a movie that crash landed for me. All right. I'm going to take at least a 24 hour break. The next time we update this pod,
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I hope you will have devoured this episode, and I'll have another one right behind it ready for you to listen to. As always, like and subscribe. We appreciate it. Tell your friends. Subscribe everywhere. Subscribe on Apple, Spotify, Podcast. Subscribe to the YouTube channel. And coming soon.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
We'll have a couple of other announcements coming, including a couple of other places where you'll be able to find content by yours truly. With that, until we upload again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And I think Kemp's decision when you when you couple it with the decision of now former Governor Chris Sununu in New Hampshire deciding an open seat, not even having to challenge a sitting incumbent, this would be an open seat race for him. He'd likely be the front runner right away, but he decided not to. And I think there's a couple of reasons. One is.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And this is something that I've experienced over the years. Any of the senators that used to be governors, the path from governor to senator, you talk to any former governor who's serving in the Senate and you ask them which job they like better, none of them hesitate. In fact, now they hate the Senate, the way the Senate works. It's dysfunctional. It's not bipartisan anymore.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
It's still more bipartisan than the House, but it's less bipartisan than it ever was. It's hard to get stuff done because the party leadership runs the Senate now. Committee chairs don't have the power they used to have. The Senate is a terrible place to be compared to what it was just 20 years ago, 30 years ago. It is not the same place. It is not a deliberative body.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
They don't deliberate squat anymore. Yes, you might occasionally get an interesting – day-long filibuster. It's about the only time you see any deliberation, if there is any. You don't see real debate. That would be kind of nice. There was a time that actually happened in the Senate, even in my lifetime. But this isn't the way it is. So
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
It is not surprising to me if Brian Kemp calls up any former senators that he knows or current senators that he knows. What do you think of the place? They're going to tell him it stinks. Ask the current the current list of governors will complain about the place. Mark Warner misses being governor. John Hickenlooper misses being governor. Mike Rounds misses being governor.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
So and none of those guys will tell you that the Senate is a better job than that. So I don't wanna sit here and just simply say these are a couple of Republican governors who assess the political landscape and said it's a bad year to run. Even if it were a good year to run, The Senate doesn't feel like it's going to be a great place to be.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
It meant I got to navigate Newark Airport. And if you followed my X feed at all, you will know this. And the entire Northeast corridor, here is the bottom line. All of the tri-state leaders need to get together. This is a mess. The train situation is a mess. The Newark situation is a mess. This is as big of a travel corridor as there is.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
But the second thing that is going on here is the political landscape. I mean, if recent history is any guide, 2026 is going to be advantage Democrats. The question is, how big of an advantage? Is it a small advantage? You know, the way it was in some races sort of in 2022, it was sort of a mixed bag with a slight advantage to the Republicans. They always had a little more wind at the back.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
That's why they won the House. But they couldn't pull off the Senate, mostly due to bad nominees, sort of Trumpy candidates that were just too Trumpy when Trump wasn't on the ballot. And that's the other thing. With Trump not on the ballot, we've seen a couple of midterms when that happens where Republican performance goes down. Democratic performance seems to grow.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
So you have to assess the situation that way. So, you know, it is it is all of a sudden if you're a Republican challenger, but you have to behave like the incumbent because it's really an election about the party in the White House. So I understand why it's not appealing to, quote unquote, be a challenger, but have to behave like or get treated by the electorate as an incumbent.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And that's what both Chris Sununu and Brian Kemp would be walking into there. Now, look, the Senate map is not great. Not only do they have to win four seats in order to take the Senate, they have to defend four open seats Plus the Georgia Senate seat with with John Ossoff, which isn't which is going to be no easy feat. So you're essentially looking at five races.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
The four opens Michigan, New Hampshire, Minnesota and Illinois. And look, do I think Illinois is going to be that competitive at the end of the day? Probably not. But it's an open seat. And it's going to be a really crowded Democratic primary. And what if the Democrats nominate somebody too far to the left that gives an opening to somebody?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
It's unlikely, considering that MAGA seems to be the more dominant force in Republican primaries. Rarely does moderate Republicans get through. I guess Glenn Youngkin sort of kind of was at least less MAGA-y than most, which is why he was able to, I think, perform, you know, pull off the upset that he did in Virginia governor back in 2021. So you look at that and that's a that's a tough scenario.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And then you look at the Republican seats in theory that are in the competitive states. Right. You have Maine and North Carolina are really the only two Republican held seats that jump out at you. And so then the question is, what are the ones that can put into play? Well, this is where I think if you're the Democrats.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I don't think there's a plausible path yet to the majority, but here's the thing. The path for the Democrats has gotten better than it was a hundred days ago, right? Yes, they've got these open seat problems, but they don't have major challengers, good challengers and Republican candidates I think they didn't get the best candidate they could have gotten in Michigan Senate.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
I think John James would have been better than Mike Rogers there. They're not getting their strongest candidate in New Hampshire. They're not getting their strongest candidate in Georgia. It is Minnesota is just a mess of a situation for the Republican Party there. And then I you know, do I are there some moderate Republicans, you know, in a in a in a on a previous election?
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
On Earth 2, Adam Kinzinger is running for the U.S. Senate in Illinois and would have a boxer's chance in an off year like this. But Adam Kinzinger is no Republican anymore. And I think we all know that that ship has sailed a long time ago. You know, I could have seen a Darren LaHood put that race in play. again, in a non-Trumpy atmosphere, but I can't imagine it. So you have that situation.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
Then you have these primary challengers, two sitting Republican incumbents in Louisiana, in Texas, and North Carolina. Well, Well, I do think Texas can get put into play if Ken Paxton knocks off Cornyn in the primary. I don't think Cornyn is beatable in a general election at all by any Democrat. I think a lot of Democrats could be Ken Paxton. I think he's that polarizing.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
And I think he becomes that problematic for the Republicans if he gets there. And I don't know how Cornyn beats him. I really don't. But we'll see. And I'll tell you this. He's Cornyn will not be outraised and he'll not be outworked. And I think and in some ways having he personally clearly doesn't like Ken Paxton has no respect for his character. I imagine he's motivated.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
You throw the fact that there are two appointed senators having to seek election on their own for the first time, one in Florida in the Rubio seat. Ashley Moody is going to be sitting in that one. And then, of course, you have the Ohio situation, which is a special where we have John Husted. filling that seat. And I'll tell you, it's Ohio.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
This is what makes people either trust government or not trust government. Get this stuff right, and they're amazed and impressed. Get this stuff wrong, and this is what sort of can leave a mark. And let's just say, look, there has definitely been, I think the Northeast Corridor has a few disadvantages politically. It is considered a bluer area.
The Chuck ToddCast
Jay Inslee On Why Trump’s INCOMPETENCE Will Hurt Americans
You know, if Sherrod Brown runs again, that puts potentially that seat in place. So, again, what's the path look like? They got to somehow win, get North Carolina. They're going to need a governor to act, a former governor who want to run on the Democratic side, Roy Cooper. So they have to win North Carolina. They'd have to go win Maine.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So we would look at a, so what you're describing to me, the immediate country that jumps out is Putin and Russia, because here's a guy who does have big mansions. Here's a people with a bunch of oligarchs who've made money off the state. It seems that this is how he kind of controls the wealthy diaspora is through some sort of investments.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I mean, is that the clearest example we have probably around the world right now in a semi-large country?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
The warlords. Right. Each warlord had their own sort of they kind of wanted to control their economic weather in Afghanistan. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And you know one way you can see this, that Donald Trump is now mailing in the presidency? It's his travel schedule for the first 100 days. He marked the 100th day with a trip to Michigan. What's shocking about his trip to Michigan is that that's the first, essentially, it's the first battleground state he's bothered to visit since the beginning of his term.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I mean, look, I look at Teapot Dome was probably the closest we came to looking like a kleptocracy, that the Taft essentially filled his cabinet with a bunch of guys that were just trying to make money off the taxpayers.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Set the rules, essentially.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So I started using the word sort of in this, you know, and I was trying to I have the episodes to prove it. I was trying to explain why Donald Trump was so obsessed with tariffs. And yes, he cared about these trade deficits and I think misunderstood them, but I'm going to set that aside.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
the real benefit that he enjoyed in the first term with tariffs that he learned about, and this is how I always say, Trump is very much is a rote learner and he, you know, you can't fool him twice. And so what the tariffs allow him to do is encourage people to have to come to him for exemptions and that the exemption process is
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
how we can end up in a kleptocracy where he has full control of different aspects of the economy because he can decide winners and losers. He can decide you get a tariff, you don't get a tariff. You get this, you don't get this. And that this is what was so dangerous about his tariff policy because it wasn't about the tariffs themselves.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
It was about that he was gonna have singular control of the economy. But what you just described, I'm actually questioning whether that's, you know, that maybe we don't, we have enough checks and balances that he can create an administration that's a kleptocracy, but he can't really change the system into that per se. Am I being naive?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
It's more remarkable all the time with the stuff they thought of. When I think about the emoluments clause, I think about, you know, the only thing I can't figure out is why the heck they thought presidents should have pardoned power. Like, what was the point of getting away from the king? But anyway, I could set that one little thing aside. The idea that presidents
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
couldn't be put on trial very easily and that you might actually have to do it in a different way. Like the I mean, it is remarkable to me how they understood what could what the public would be able to take and what they couldn't.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
He had one day where he traveled to North Carolina, Nevada, and California. He was checking out flood damage in North Carolina. This was right there. It was something he had been scoring points on due to what was a poor recovery effort led by FEMA in western North Carolina during the remnants of a hurricane that devastated them with floods in western North Carolina.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
It's just like, well, it was a given. Yeah, of course we're doing that. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Yeah, the leadership of Congress has been captured right now.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
They approved Bobby Kennedy Jr.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
They seem to be really afraid of the voters. For a group of people that don't have to face the voters, the Supreme Court, like I do think, I think Roberts' motives are, here's the wrong word to use here, are noble, even if he's producing outcomes that I understand what he's trying to avoid. And I think what we all know is that these are lessons you can't put off these lessons.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And the longer you put it off, the worse it's going to get. But I understand what he thinks he's trying to avoid. How's that? But they look way too captured. They look way too afraid of the people on this one and of a small group of people.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Yeah. You know, it's one of those this feels like one of those things, you know, like trying to figure out when a recession begins. Well, we sort of know after we leave it. Right. Like it's it's always easier to find out when a recession started after we're done with the recession than when we're in the middle of it.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Is that how you would describe trying to, you know, how do you know when we're in a kleptocracy? Perhaps we're already in it. We don't feel it, right? The bog, we've been, we're the boiled frog and we just don't fully realize it yet. Or are there more signs we should be looking for?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So he made a political stop there. Made a political stop in Nevada and then toured the wildfire damage in L.A. But you take that day away and that's three less. Basically, the only trips he would have made are to the Super Bowl, to the Daytona 500 and to Bedminster or Mar-a-Lago over and over and over again.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And you know what they would argue? at the time, because this was the argument at the time, right? The economy is too big to fail. And even though we have these horrible bad actors, we don't have time to decide who was nefarious and who was accidental. We have to just use, we have to bail out the economy so that it doesn't destroy the rest of the global order, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Like it was, it felt as if it was like people exempted these people from punishment because you don't understand we're in the middle of an, you know, we don't have time to arrest people in the middle of a hurricane.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
It doesn't make it a crime, doesn't make it illegal, but it makes it unethical.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So Iraq- You know, it used to be worse though, Jodi. I have to tell you, like, I always love to tell this story to my students when I'm teaching about like, as bad as it seems now, it used to be worse. So did you know that in 1992, so in 1992, that was my first year covering campaign politics. And that year we had this astronomical amount of members of Congress decided to not seek reelection.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And there was a variety of reasons for that. Number one, you had a check bouncing scandal where they got to write checks without any money to cover it. And the government just covered it. That was a weird. And even when you go back to this day, you're like, I can't believe members of Congress just had this sort of create a checkbook without money in it.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And it always cashed your list like that's crazy. There was also a reapportionment year. And so people don't like to run a new lines. But there was one other thing. They had just changed the law. Prior to 1992, a member of Congress could retire and keep their campaign money as their own, personal, just like an IRA, like, here you go.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And what's interesting is that it's quite the contrast from his first term and his first term in the first hundred days. He traveled quite a bit. In fact, he was a very, you know, yes, he still golfed quite a bit. Now he seems to be only. golfing on weekends.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I mean, after 1992, in theory, members of Congress are not allowed to personally pocket campaign money once they're done running for office. But prior to 1992, members of Congress could do that. So I take your point here, but We've actually had looser laws in the past that allowed for some shocking things like what I just described.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
That's why I always say money finds, like, it's really hard to legislate campaign finance because money finds a way, right? Life finds a way, money finds a way. Like, you know, 501c4s, 501c3s, you know, we came up with all of these weird tax code things that people have found. Where you're like, oh, no, as long as it's not advocacy, you can use it. Registering people to vote is not advocacy.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So you can use this dark money to do that. Right. Like we we keep changing. But but there's definitely there's definitely been I think it's really hard to legislate money out of politics.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Now, a few million dollars these days is just a state legislative race.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So what's the next step for us on this dark road to kleptocracy?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
He spent at one point six days in a row at Mar-a-Lago, according to my friends over at NBC News, where some federal workers were wondering if he was qualifying for work for home benefits there. He was there so long. But there is a sense that he is just either not interested in traveling the country, not wanting to hold his rallies, which he used to love to do in his first term. And I think it's
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I'm pretty cynical about it. It feels like the entire crypto industry decided to get on board Trump in the last six months of the campaign because they saw that as the fastest way to make their Bitcoin investments worth more than they actually are.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
We saw that. Like, you know, right. Ozark really taught everybody how to do it. Oh, okay. You treat that and the Americans. I look at every travel agency now with skepticism, thanks to the Americans. And you just sit there going, yeah, casinos. Makes sense to me.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Well, that's the, yeah, that's right. And we're not asking, I guess there's no character test with that. It's whether your check clears. Are there, it's interesting you brought up state legislatures. I mean, I just, you know, it is, I always say that the least corrupt legislature in America is Congress because we have more eyeballs on it.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
The fewer eyeballs you have on the state level and the local level, that's where you're usually, you know, shoot city councils to me are the most corrupt, corruptible. I'm not saying they're all corrupt, corruptible because, you know, developers, we all know, you know, that story is as old as time.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I actually think this is another bad political mistake. Right. And this is what happens when you surround yourself with people that just tell you what you want to hear. He doesn't want to travel. He doesn't want to work very hard. So he gets to go back to Mar-a-Lago so he can go golf or he gets to go back to Bedminster so he could go golf.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
But since you brought up states, are there certain states that are worse than others that stand out to you?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Well, their campaign finance laws are garbage. I mean, just anybody can write a check. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Right. There's no investigation, nothing. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
South Dakota, I know, has a crazy trust law that allows people to hide money. Right. They've they've I know they were they changed their law on purpose in order to attract people to do this.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Don't you want this big money in this state? It'd be good for the state. But it's not good for the state.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
He was in the first term surrounded by people that said, you know. especially if you want to win reelection, you need to be communicating with the public what you're trying to do. The tariff policies are extraordinarily unpopular. His inability to even communicate what they're supposed to do has made it even worse for him.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
But she spent a lion's share of her career in the military, educated at the Air Force and Academy, and she's a specialist in kleptocracies and actually how democracies get corrupted. And she wrote a pretty provocative piece for Foreign Affairs about that issue. Is America creeping into a kleptocracy? You probably heard me use that word.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So one of the ways that I try to make myself feel better about this current era is how similar to me it looks to the early 20th century. And, you know, I look at the early 20th century and we can sit here and we can talk about the the robber barons. And there was a lot of those issues. But it also was a massive period of reform, political reform, economic reform. Clearly, the public wasn't happy.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And you saw movements. We had direct election of senators. We got women the right to vote. We've got the trust busters and, you know, this idea that, you know, maybe the government ought to be involved in regulating business. What? Let's assume we are going to enter a period of reform.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And I think that the fact of the matter is the most likely scenario, if we don't like how things turn out in this administration as a public, we're probably going to correct in that direction. We're going to be looking for ways to make sure We don't have this happen again. Right. Whatever that whatever we decide that is.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So what is some reform legislation that, you know, assuming we do head in that direction? What makes sense? What would you like to see? Or is this stuff that's already on the books and we just need better enforcement of the laws on the books and a Justice Department focused on it?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Yeah, I want to double the size of Congress. I think that that would be a huge way of trying to get Congress closer to the people and you would minimize gerrymandering. But anyway, go ahead.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So the fact that he waited literally to his 100th day to have his first election public event outside of Washington to explain his tariff policy, I think that just strikes me as lazy. And it is kind of the hallmark of how this White House has been run. In some ways, they make it look like there's a lot of motion going on.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Well, if you double the size, I will I will make this I'm making this argument. If you double the size of the House and there's no constitutional amendment needed, then all of a sudden the Electoral College isn't a problem anymore, by the way, because you change the math. Yeah, you do change the math.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
You know, I but and the reason I'm like obsessed with that is anything that avoids a constitutional amendment. I'm always looking for because we know how difficult it is. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So when did that change?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
It's amazing. My friend Brody Mellons and his brother wrote a terrific book on lobbying that's out right now called The Wolves of K Street. And the basic point is sort of like... the world of lobbying has gotten so perverted now. It used to be, it was corporate interest versus the public interest, right? There'd be some advocacy group making one case and corporations would make their own case.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And ultimately the politician had to choose between the citizens group or the corporate group. Now you have two companies in the, say the same sector who are essentially trying to put the other company out of business. And they each use lobbyists. And it's sort of like we're not involved as citizens. It's just two companies arguing who can weaponize government regulation in their favor.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And, like, we've really perverted lobbying really down to that. And it is – The concept of lobbying makes a lot of sense to me. As, by the way, the Federalist Papers point out, they expected some form of this. Citizens groups, things like that, various factions. But how it works right now in Washington, I don't know where citizens go to lobby, put it that way.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
but in some ways they're not, you know, take, he signs executive orders, but he doesn't try to pass legislation. They're trying to take a lot of political shortcuts. They're not doing, if you wanted to cut government, you wouldn't do it the way they're doing it with Doge because most of the cuts that they make are gonna get restored.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Everybody rationalizes it now. I mean, I love how, you know, all these groups that Trump's trying to target, they're hiring Trump's favorite lobbyist. Right. You know, it's sort of and again, to me, that's how, you know, you're in a kleptocracy when when somebody who wants to play by the rules decides, well, that's what the rules are. So I got to play by those rules.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I'm not going to play by the rules. I'm playing by his rules.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I mean, I'm gonna be a bit cynical here, but we've essentially put out a welcome mat for anybody that wants to hide money in the world. Have we not?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Forget Switzerland anymore. Forget the Caymans. Aren't we as good as anybody?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And it's gotten much- And this is over and above the Caymans, right? Who was notorious back in the day, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Most of the executive order he's signing are gonna get thrown out by the courts. If he wanted to make real change, he has a Republican Congress that's pretty compliant, But guess what? Legislation is hard. Trying to get lawmakers to do it's going to take time and effort. And I think, you know, we sit here and wonder, oh, he's an authoritarian.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Happy Wednesday. Happy day one of the second 100 days of the Trump administration. I got a fascinating interview coming up today with a woman by the name of Jody Vittori. She's a military veteran. She's a professor of practice for global politics and economics. with a concentration on national security issues at Georgetown University.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
To close the loop then, is it the Trump administration that has brought upon a kleptocracy or we already had all of the elements of it and whoever's president could essentially lean in or lean out depending on what they choose?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Citizens United, blah, blah, blah, 30 years of this.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Let me get you out of here on this. How did you become an expert in this? What brought you to – when you're in college, you're like, I'm going to be a specialist on understanding what happens when a government becomes corrupt and how corrupt governments happen. But I'm guessing that isn't how you got into this. How did you end up – give me a little bit of your origin story here before we go.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Okay.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Excellent.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Which academy?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Okay.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So you saw how money was moved very corruptly. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
In some ways, he's an authoritarian by laziness, meaning he'd prefer to just sign edicts because he doesn't want to have to put in the work that it takes to host members of Congress and cajole them to do X or host members of Congress and cajole them to do Y or travel the country and put public political pressure.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I feel like a national security perspective, really.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I was just going to say, and some might argue, Pakistan and corruption go hand in hand.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Well, your students are pretty lucky. That's a different background. You're not somebody who's just been in the world of hypotheticals, the world of London School of Economics, no disrespect to them. but sort of a different, you know, more of a real world.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
You saw political theory get implemented rather than just read about it. We're not. We're not implemented, but either way.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Yeah, yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I'm sure it's like that's where the Mike Tyson quote comes in, right? Quote comes in, everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
It's unsimilar. Hey, Dr. Jodi Vittori, I learned a lot. It was a very provocative piece, but I thought a necessary one. And it's like, you know, this isn't just about throwing around names, right? Throwing around, this is late stage democracy, right? when you start to lose it. And I think we need to be a little more aware of it. So thank you.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
You got it. So I'd love your comments about this interview with Jody Vittori here, what you think of whether we are at a kleptocracy and what we could do about it. You know, I do think that The issue of money in politics, which is – I've kind of been hitting on that theme a little bit with a variety of my guests here.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
He doesn't know for a guy who prides himself at being Mr. Salesman and Mr. Art of the deal. He's done a terrible job of selling his policies and selling them to the country. He has spent a lot more time on true social that he has talking with people outside of his, uh, bubble. Uh,
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
The ease with which money circulates in the political system does make this the opportunity to pay to play, pay to survive, whatever you want to call it. It is it is it is just it is more likely to happen and it is a problem and we're going to need more politicians willing to essentially not.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
be tempted by the opportunity that is out there for pay to play and instead try to find some laws that perhaps protect the democracy from that. But voters are going to have to care about it enough to scare these politicians into doing it. All right. Let's take a few questions. Let's dig in to the file, what we call around here the Ask Chuck file.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
There it is. You got the music, so that helps get me in the mood. All right. I'm just going to plow forward here with four questions, and I'm going to try to keep my answers tight, and we'll go from there. In a society – this one comes from Dave in Alexandria, Virginia.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
In a society that has granted personhood to corporations – I assume he's kind of referring to Citizens United – has it come time to grant the same protection to the state and its populace in preventing them from reckless and false statements? Is it time to make false, active, and malicious statements by the government or actively file political candidates illegal?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So I think what you have to get at is intent, right? Is somebody making a false statement because they believe in that falsehood or they're making the false statement because they know it's false, right? And that's, you know, motive when it comes to speech is a very difficult thing to prove. And I'll be honest with you.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I read this question about three or four different times and I was thinking about not bothering with it and not answering it because I was worried it would come across the wrong way to folks and stuff. But I wanted to address it because I understand where you're coming from. Right. Which is like when, you know, should. And I think I'd go deeper than that.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
You know, could a could almost like voters file a clash at class action suit against a. Maybe it's a sitting governor. Maybe it's a sitting president. Maybe it's the HHS. Right. You know, does does a group of Texans decide to file a class action suit against HHS and Secretary Kennedy for misleading people on the measles vaccines? Now, look, there's obviously indemnity in government.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Government officials are supposed to be indemnified, and it's very hard to sue them on a personal basis. You could get to defamation and things like that. But I guess I would – I was trying to think of what would be an example of a suit that might get standing, right? Did a government official provide – essentially mislead the public and it led to deaths, right? This would be the measles, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
It is notable to me that this week he's at least doing interviews with media entities that are not just espousing the MAGA line of thinking. He interviewed with ABC News, interviewed with The Atlantic. And that is a huge difference from Trump 1.0. Trump 1.0 talked to everybody. Trump 1.0 was tweeting. Trump 1.0 was trying to communicate with the entire country.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Is there some standing there? So I guess my answer to this question is I think this would be difficult to make happen. I think There's, you know, elected officials have, particularly in Congress, have protection of the speech and debate clause. The First Amendment does sort of protect, you know, you have a right to lie, you know, you have a right to mislead.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
The question is maliciously intent, there's defamation. Did your, you know, did you do your misstatements to purposely cause harm, right? There's sort of, you do have to connect at the motive there.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
But in coming up with an example, the one that would perhaps could have standing, and I'd be fascinated to see if there was a federal court that would take this and what the Supreme Court would say, is if a group of citizens in Texas sued Kennedy and HHS, essentially by saying that they helped enhance the measles outbreak, which have then caused this damage, loss of life, etc.,
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So it would be on, I think, health statements that I think perhaps the government would be the most vulnerable on in something like that, especially if you can scientifically prove that they were just wrong on the facts. I mean, the Surgeon General of Florida is a massive misinformer on so many things on health.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
He's the one that's been trying to convince people to take fluoride out of water, misleading people about the damage fluoride could do. Like anything, if you just injected fluoride into your body, a whole tube of toothpaste of it immediately or whatever it is, yeah, it could poison you. But that is not the amount of fluoride in water that is taking place. So I –
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I would love to see a class action suit about health advisories from the government that that possibly could be something that would put them at risk. Certainly would be an interesting thing to watch unfold in the courts. All right, next question here comes from James E. Are there any realistic possibilities to stop gerrymandering? It gets tricky because this comes down to a state
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And county law thing, correct. For example, if Congress makes a law banning it, the states don't have to adhere to that. I feel that this problem could fix a lot of Washington by promoting more moderate candidates and more competitive races. Curious about your thoughts of what it would take to ban gerrymandering. So here's the problem if you start banning.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
One person's gerrymander is another person's attempt at creating a competitive district. You know, one of the hallmarks of our society over the last 20 years, you know, gerrymandering was a gigantic problem in the 90s and the first decade of the aughts. And then we started self-sorting, meaning, you know, when I was growing up, I had no idea. Nobody had any idea.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
whether you lived in a Republican neighborhood or a Democratic neighborhood, especially if you lived in sort of a mixed neighborhood like I did. It was sort of a middle class neighborhood in what I call East Kendall. There is no East Kendall, but it was east of the Turnpike for those of you keeping track of Miami geography. And, you know, I think our block – I have no idea.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
My father was a bumper sticker guy, so he had a Bob Dole bumper sticker for the 88 race, so I'm sure that sort of marked our house. But I don't really have a strong memory of anybody on either side, and people weren't sure – what people's politics were on different things.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Now there's this bit of cultural self-sorting where people want to live, whether it's in a similar ethnic group or with similar cultural ties. And so if you're trying to create, you know, congressional districts that are competitive, you actually might need to gerrymander in order to create the competitive nature. So I'm not sure gerrymandering itself is something you want to ban.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Now, I do think you could create guardrails on gerrymandering, right? And I think I've brought this up before where there's always been this idea that the courts could come up with a formula. So, for instance, let me give you a formula that I've wanted to test out, which is you take –
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I mean, even if let's just take the example. Let's say he was just so lazy he only wanted to golf on weekends. Well, then travel the country to different golf courses and golf on weekends. Actually connect with the rest of the American people. Right now he's conducting a presidency campaign. that is essentially sitting on Air Force One or one of his two clubs. He's a creature of habit.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
You know, in any decade, at the end of the decade, when you're trying to figure out how you're starting your apportionment, you take the last two gubernatorial elections and the last two presidential elections. And you basically you put all all four of those votes together and you split the DNR and whatever it is, whatever that spacing is, if if if the.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
If the party that has an advantage is at 52 percent, then no district can be 10 points greater than 52, you know, for for said party. You know that you can't make a district bigger than 62 percent advantage for party X. And if it's 55, then that number would expand to 65. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
You you sort of create some sort of, you know, no more no more than 10 points in one direction or the other based on the statewide percentage. partisan split over the last four statewide elections for the two executive offices in the state, governor and the presidency. That's a way to create a formula. I'm a data guy. I would love to just have rules that you would follow. It's math.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And you go from there. The other idea, of course, is what I floated in my TED talk, which is you want to if you want to limit the damage that gerrymandering can do and the fact that political leaders in a state can essentially, you know, put the finger on the scale for one party or the other.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I mean, the fact of the matter is Republicans have an advantage, you know, have the majority in Congress, not because of the voters that voted, but because of congressional districts that were redrawn in North Carolina and Florida. That's the margin for the Republicans. If they don't get those court order redraws that go their way.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Democrats probably control the House and we have a much different situation here with Trump and his attempt to govern. So I do think that that. That gerrymandering as it stands now. And I think we have to we don't have we have too many people in per congressional district, 800000 per congressional districts, too many. There are only 13 cities that have a population of greater than 800000.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
OK, so that means we have 435 congressional districts that are the that would be individually represented. you know, bigger or as big as just about every major city in America, but for the top 13. Austin, Texas has just under 800,000. So that is not a community of interest. And when you have districts that big, it actually becomes easier to gerrymander.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And I know nobody wants to put more members of Congress and more politicians in Washington, but I believe it or not, more democracy is better for the democracy, not less democracy. And if you want to get rid of gerrymandering or limit the damage gerrymandering is due, then we should expand the House. You don't need a constitutional amendment for this. This is just an act of Congress.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Expand the House. We're at one per 400,000. You're going to have more communities of interest. By the way, 400,000, it's the population of America's 50th largest city, which is Arlington, Texas. That's a suburb of Dallas. That is a community of interest. I expect there to be a member of Congress for Arlington, Texas. You know, that makes sense to me.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And the likelihood, if you have 881 districts rather than 435, it's just harder to slice and dice them. You're actually going to have more of everything, and it should create more diversity, a bit more small-D democracy in the House. And yes, you're going to have a different class of people finally have an opportunity to run for Congress.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
It isn't going to be somebody you know or some ideology that you share with just enough people in order to break through with an interest group to get the nomination in a congressional district that only the primary would decide things.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So if you're looking to get rid of gerrymandering, I don't think it is by doing a law, as you're describing, because people move around and you never know when you're going to need to create – gerrymander in order to create competition. So I do think the better answer is double the size of the house. All right, let me move on to the next question here. And this one comes from, oh, it's unsigned.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
He's creature comfort. And when you get older, that's what happens. Joe Biden spent just about every weekend in Delaware. Well, you know, Donald Trump wants to spend every weekend at Mar-a-Lago or Bedminster. And so it just struck me that to see this event, which was surprising, right? He gets a lot of energy from these things. So the question is, perhaps he maybe he's just
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Long-time listener, first-time caller. I love that. You always like to talk about finding people in the middle. And I've always liked your description that most Americans live between the 30-yard lines, referring to a football field. But my question for you is, could you explain what you're measuring with that metaphorical football field?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
When you're talking about moderates, is it a question about tone, not being a bomb thrower, deference to process, policy incrementalism? People who try to triangulate some position that seems to appeal to some imaginary swing voter? Or is it really just about being pragmatic as opposed to seeming like a doctrinaire partisan dialogue? Yes. OK, the answer is that he goes on.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Which version are the people you think politicians need to speak to when you're talking about moderates and which of these voices should the media try to find? Look, I am a one of those who believes that I always say that I, you know, I don't share my I have. Depending on the issue, some people might say my views are radically left or they're radically right or whatever, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
They don't – but what I always say is you can't sort of make progress without incrementally in the middle. It doesn't mean – I think there's two types of moderates. I think there's moderate and temperament, and then there's sort of moderate in that they have a mixed constituency and they're trying to represent maybe –
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
A business community on one part of their district, and maybe they're trying to represent a religious community in another part of the district. And maybe there's sometimes some things go together, but I'm mostly in for tone or tenor. I mean, I think that, you know, they're. There used to be Republicans tried to get the most electable conservative.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I've heard some on the left describes himself as a pragmatic progressive, meaning they're always looking to make progress, but they're not trying to, you know, they're not trying to solve the problem in one fell swoop. You know that in a country of 350 million people. With a lot of diverse opinions, you've got to bring them along one step at a time.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So when I speak about the 30s, it's not that people don't have some things that they may be further to the left than somebody and further to the right. It's just that they accept the fact that, hey, their point of view is out of that mainstream and isn't going to get addressed, but maybe there's something in between.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So maybe you believe that all abortions should be banned, but you know that that's not a – That's not a 70 percent issue that in fact, that's a 70 percent issue against your point of view.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So instead, you may be for parental notification or you may be for, you know, trying to limit the number of weeks somebody has access to abortion, because then you find yourself sharing the views of people somewhere in the in the in this larger middle. So when I refer to that, I do refer to I think of it as that way, because I don't think anybody I don't think.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I think people define themselves as centrist based on the caricatures of the two parties that are out there. But I actually think that isn't the issue. It really is more – I see it as more temperament, right? You have people that are going to take a sledgehammer to government, right? I mean Donald Trump is no moderate here even though he actually has positions that might not –
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
You know, that might not put him as an ideologue, traditional conservative on X or Y or Z. Right. He's actually a protectionist, which in the 80s was considered a left wing position. But it you know, he is not conservative at all in his in his in his mindset of trying to hurry up and change things. Right. That is not, you know, the first part of conservative is conserve. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Getting older, getting more tired, doesn't want to, you know, needs to work three and a half, four days a week, doesn't want to have the full five day weeks, doesn't wants to have extra recovery time. Whatever it is, I actually think it's harming his presidency just from a communication standpoint. Whether you love him or hate him, he's the best communicator they have.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Which means you you you don't do anything too rashly. If anything, you don't you know, you incrementalism, but even even smaller. Right. On that front. So, yeah. Look, you outlined it well, but that is usually what I'm referring to. It's not necessarily an ideological. It's more about temperament and whether –
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And whether you believe that, hey, the goal should be to give – get a little something for everybody, a 70-30 win if you're the party in majority, that's a win versus this idea that the other side doesn't get any say at all. It's either 95-5. It's either my way or the highway. That to me is not a moderate position even if you have no interest in engaging with the other side. All right.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Final question I'll take today.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
is this uh it comes from a guy named rocky gotta love that i always appreciate when you insert some sports knowledge into a political conversation based on your experiences what elected official was is the most knowledgeable sports and you've interacted with disclaimer former athletes or coaches like jim bunning steve large and tom osborne they don't count extra points if you want to break it down baseball college football nfl college hoops nba nhl pga uh enjoying the podcast rocky so i look i got a couple of quick answers on this um
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I tell you, the person that Tom Davis, he's a former Republican member of Congress from Northern Virginia. He was he basically came to Congress when I got to the hotline. I think he won in ninety two and then ninety four. Anyway, he this is a guy who didn't just know every presidential result going back to the 48 presidential election by county.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I think he could name every World Series lineup that goes back to 1948. Davis was a baseball savant, is a baseball savant. I've enjoyed going to Nats games with him in the past. If he's listening now, he might be. He's he's an old friend. Easily the most knowledgeable baseball fan of any elected official I've met. But you have these sort of specialists like Sherrod Brown. He's got this.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I don't want to give away his email address, but his email address is a is a tribute to the tribe, to the Guardians. Now, I guess we refer to them massive Cleveland baseball fan and knows can go deep on Cleveland baseball fans. Not sure about the other sports. Steve Israel, former Long Island congressman, goes deep on the Mets, just loves his Mets, can go super deep.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Then there's a lot of – I've always had some pretty good – Haley Barber, boy, does he love Ole Miss football. And that is somebody you can have a deep and long conversation on Ole Miss football. So – you know, it's a Marco Rubio can go, he's a guy that will go deep on the backup cornerbacks of the dolphins. You know, he's a super fan of the dolphins, uh, in a way.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And I, I, you know, I'm not sure where I, I think his son's a Gator. So, and he went to, so I, I'm not quite sure of his college foot, how obsessed with college football he is. Uh, But I know he's a he's a massive Dolphins fan and can go deep on the Dolphins on that front. So, you know, there's quite look, there's this has been one of the more helpful ways as a reporter.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I've always said, you know, being a sports fan, there's always a way to connect. And I I'm an eclectic sports fan. I like, you know, baseball and college football are probably my two first loves. But football. Boy, the NFL's right there. I love the NBA. My son loves it more. So I've gotten into it a little bit more. By the way, Barack Obama, he goes, that guy watches a ton of basketball.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And he doesn't seem to actually want to go out there and communicate with the public right now. He went to Michigan. It's almost like they said, OK, we got to have 100 days event. But. He's right back here.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I remember I busted him. He wasn't a huge baseball guy. Claimed to be a White Sox fan. And I remember... One day there's some big trade the White Sox have. I was doing small talk. He wasn't paying attention to a Jake Peavy trade at the Chicago White Sox. But like he's the guy that was going. Did you see the backup guard that played the other night in the Bulls game?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
That guy, you know, he played it. I watched him at Marquette like he goes deep both on college basketball and the NFL. You know, ironically, Donald Trump's not as you know, where he is, where he goes deep as golf. He weirdly doesn't go that deep on some of these other sports. He knows culturally he needs to connect, but as he will say, he's friendly with a lot of sports owners.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Um, but you know, I know he loves boxing. He loves wrestling. Wrestling's been a good, uh, good thing for his businesses in Atlantic city. Um, he was the one guy that was willing to host the WWE back in the days. And that was an important, you know, the snobs of Madison square garden weren't so into it back in the day. And it, and it, and it gave him a tenant when he needed a tenant. Um,
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
But he doesn't go as deep on the players on some of this stuff unless he has a personal relationship. But on golf, and I'll tell you, there's a reason golfers are so loyal to him. They will tell you, and I've had this conversation with golfers, even those that don't like his politics, they say, you don't understand. He really cares about making great golf courses.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
They've always felt very, very well treated by any Trump course. So, you know, the golfing community isn't just formed to be forum. He has treated the golfing community quite well. over the years because he wants more of these tournaments, right? He does. The guy loves his golf. Um, and he does, and he does go deep on that. So I will say this.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So anyway, it's just fascinating to me how I think that as tumultuous as the first hundred days, there's an underlying aspect of this that there's actually kind of a laziness to the president in his lack of salesmanship, lack of doing these things. One other thing, because I think it's a fair question. So what would a I've been pretty doom and gloom.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
It is whether you're, whether you're into sports or not, if you're going to get into politics as an elected official, as a reporter, or as a staffer, you're going to have to learn how to speak that language. Um, it is the, it is the best way to connect with communities. It is a, uh,
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
frankly, it is a way to bring communities together without, you know, and especially, you know, I wish Donald Trump didn't make this so difficult for people politically, sort of almost being negative if somebody doesn't come. Really would love to separate out the politics of the presidency so that plenty of teams could just feel good about showing up at the White House.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
You know, I'm sorry that it is treated so politically these days. You know, there were plenty of players that boycotted showing up for these events when Obama was president. But it didn't get, you know, it's not like Obama got angry about it and said something and tweeted or whatever, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And I think it's why it never seemed like it was as big of a deal as it comes across now because the president himself, it personalizes everything into assume, you know, whether it's about him or not, as we know, In some ways, he loves it if he can make something about him on that. But look, that's my rundown of sports fans.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I said that in 2024, at a minimum, that Donald Trump would turn the Republican Party in some ways into a kleptocracy. I don't think we're there yet as a country. But when you have when you have things like this inaugural fund that law firms have to pay into.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
You know, my friend Chris Eliza wrote a whole book about presidents and sports. It's really good. I highly recommend it. It's a good way to sort of get you acclimated with which politicians truly like sports and which politicians simply use sports as a way to try to connect to the everyday voter. All right. Well, that does it for that group. We've got four questions in for Ask Chuck.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
We've been getting a lot. Be sure you can send me an email at AskChuck at TheChuckPodcast.com. You can put a comment in the YouTube with a question. You can do it on our Instagram feed. You can send us questions wherever you want to send us questions. Instagram feed, Twitter, YouTube. Yes, I have a TikTok feed too for the podcast. Don't tell anybody at TikTok.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
No, actually, please do so the algorithm can get better. So anyway, I would love to get your questions from that. And with that, I will take a break for at least 24 hours until we upload again.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I think it's going to be pretty hard for Donald Trump to recover. I think he's probably – if you told me if I went into a coma today and didn't wake up until January 20th, 2029, and you said to me, Donald Trump's approval rating never got over 45 percent for the rest of the term while you were in a coma, it wouldn't surprise me. And I've gone through the reasonings before of why I did this.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
I think particularly in a second term, that's part of the, you know, that's part of the why there's probably a shorter leash with the public, public like sort of, oh, he's going to be that. All right, forget it. Right. And there may be they may give up on him quicker, especially since he's messing up on supposedly the issue that was his core competency. Right. But let me do the other side.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So let's say I wake up from my... mythical coma, and it turns out he's popular. What would have happened? Well, I think in this next 100 days, for that to happen, for him to sort of right this ship, he needs some points on the board. Maybe he cuts an Iran deal. Maybe he gets both Russia and Ukraine to agree to a ceasefire.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Maybe he's able to get Israel and the Palestinians to at least cease violent interactions. Perhaps he's able to get some trade deals with India, Australia, Japan, the UK. I'm skeptical of all those things, but it's not out of the question. Right. It's not as if those aren't active things he's engaged in at the moment. But that's what the next. Oh, no. By the way, how about putting some.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
shovels in the ground for some new factories, right? There's a lot of pledges out there. He doesn't even have a Foxconn that he's been able to, which was that company that announced this big, I remember Trump and Paul Ryan together, they announced this big investment into Wisconsin, this company called Foxconn, and the investment never really happened.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
But he needs some shovels in the ground somewhere, some ribbon cuttings to do that. So what would If day 101 to 200, if on day 201 his numbers are 10 points better than they are today, these are the things that need to happen. Peace deal in Ukraine, peace deal in the Middle East. Maybe he gets Saudi Arabia to formally go public in their recognition of Israel. Individual trade deals with Japan.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
in order to keep the government off their back, that would pretty much put you into that category where you might be arguing that we are creeping into that. So look, it's a long conversation. I want to get into that.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
in India and Australia, perhaps maybe some pullback on the tariffs in China and positive market reaction. Now, again, all of those things are certainly things he's trying to do. And I think all of them are quite tough because here's the other problem that he has. And I think I mentioned this during the last one. He's – I think he's given up a lot of his leverage because guess what?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Everybody knows he needs a deal. And now the UK is teaming up with the EU. So I guess not only has Donald Trump impacted the politics of Canada but did he just un-Brexit? I guess we call it Brentrance at this point with the UK and the EU essentially doing their own trade deal to start working together to deal with America. Yeah. Perhaps that he can call that an international victory.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
He brought he's helping reunite Europe economically. But these are the things that I think he needs to get to happen. And I think he's going to have a hard time doing it. And he's going to have an even harder time doing it if he is going to go about this presidency sort of working together. Three and a half, four days a week and not traveling the country and not communicating with all of America.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Right now, he just rants to his supporters, makes him happy on Truth Social. What he doesn't fully appreciate is no one sees this stuff outside of his filter bubble. Guess what? That 40% of the country is with him. There's another 60% that's not with him. And he doesn't seem to be that interested in communicating with that 60% anymore. Trump 1.0 was. Trump 1.0 traveled the country.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Trump 1.0 seemed to want to connect to the public. Perhaps. This is the best evidence we have yet that Trump has no interest in a third term, because if he did, he'd be behaving like somebody who wanted to run for reelection. He's behaving like somebody who's worn out already at the start of a second term. And look, he's not a spring chicken.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And it could very well be that the job itself has become physically taxing. All right. So with that, I want to pause here. We're going to sneak in a quick break. And when we come back, this is a fascinating conversation with Jody Vittori. And again, we talk about a lot of countries and sort of the various phases. When is something a kleptocracy? When is in it?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
But before I get into that, I want to talk a little bit about the second 100 days, because I think in fairness to him, look, I've been highly critical because I think this has been a disastrous start. This is not because whether I support him or oppose him. This is just political incompetence, how they've gone about this. Yes, I think it's economic incompetence, too.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So what is the state of the American democracy? This is a question I get frequently from friends, neighbors, viewers, listeners. Are we in a constitutional crisis? How things are. And I my answer for the last six months is like, well, you know, the thing that I'm nervous about is that, you know, stage one of an authoritarian regime is when a democracy becomes a kleptocracy.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
And I had been kind of saying it without a lot of academic rigor. And then I read a terrific piece in Foreign Policy by Georgetown professor Dr. Jody Vittori, who is my guest today, who wrote about this very issue that making the case that we are now in an early stage, early stages of what's
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
If this were happening in any other country, we'd identify as, hey, this appears to be forming a kleptocracy. So, Dr. Vittorio, appreciate you coming on.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
So look, let's start with what we mean. You know, you hear the word kleptocracy and I'll be honest, it's like, is this some sort of Superman word or does it have to do with the Kremlin? Right. Like there's a lot of people kleptocracy, you know, define it and tell me, give me a couple of examples around the world that are that you might file under kleptocracy right now.
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Government by thieves. Let's take a step back. That's pretty, that's, there you go. It's not a charming term. No, it's not charming at all. There's no upside. There's never a positive case for a kleptocracy, is there?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Yeah, nationalizing an economy, is that automatically a kleptocracy?
The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
But if this was the plan, they've executed the plan extraordinarily poorly. There was a way to do government reform better and more secure. There was a way to do tariffs better. There was probably a way to order reorder his agenda, but he chose not to do it. And there's a fundamental part of his presidency that strikes me as a bit lazy, that he is kind of mailing it in.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Hey Vodafone, ich weiß ja, schnelles Internet für meinen Betrieb hat seinen Preis.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
When you do your assessment, you're the chief economist for Moody. You can't just rely on data and economic history because political decision making has an impact on the economic outcomes. So how do you factor... A country's political system into an economic assessment. Because this feels like of all the things you do, I'm guessing this is the most subjective.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
It's the least amount of data that you're relying on to make an assessment. Because political risk is just that. It is subjective.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
So it's a version of wargaming, you know, defense people will do wargames. So you're doing, in some ways, you're trying at least in order to figure out what could happen. Well, let's see if the US cuts a deal with the UK, but never the EU, could it look like this? Things like that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Oder Investoren oder Geschäftsleute.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Du machst viele öffentliche Meinungsschritte, um die ökonomischen Daten zu überlegen?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
The Michigan Consumer Index, things like that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
the globe to help us finance our debt, which we use to borrow for all sorts of things these days, including whether it's funding the Pentagon, funding Social Security. Yes, we have these lock boxes that claim, but as we all know, money is fungible. So I think he does. I think what's helpful here is that he doesn't speak economics.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
So let's talk about the current economic climate and sort of how you, let me ask it this way. Why didn't the markets price in the tariff war? What did they not see? What did they not hear in the campaign trail? Because one of the things that is surprising to me is how markets with this. I mean, it seemed, and that's, look, any of us consider and say it looks obvious now, but given the
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
I do think a lot of people made assumptions about Trump, and this is across the board, through the lens of Trump 1.0. And I think that's turned out to be a mistake. But how would you assess why markets miss this?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Failure of imagination is something I come across a lot when it comes to Trump, by the way.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
You really thought it was going to be very China-focused, didn't you?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
I mean, now you have to factor that into your risk assessment.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
It just altered everything, so we don't know. We threw, right, you know, and I...
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
He speaks American and trying to explain it where it's fairly easy to digest. But it also I'm not going to lie to you. This isn't an interview that should make you feel better about the direction of the global economy or better about what is a man-made potential economic disaster on our hands. And we're in the middle of yet another mini-firestorm on the economy as...
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
So let's talk about when the impacts of this on the American consumers are going to be a bit lagging. And I guess, you know, is it a couple of months? I assume a lot of American businesses have stocked up on inventory, right? Some prepared for these tariffs. There was enough time perhaps to stock up. So when do you start to expect to see the true impact of the tariff war
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
in your data that you use to analyze the health of the American economy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
A lot of produce in particular, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Seht ihr noch irgendwelche Beweise, dass Unternehmen sagen können, okay, ich werde hier in den Vereinigten Staaten ein paar Produkte anbieten, oder gibt es noch viel mehr Wärme und Sehnsucht?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
It'll be a different administration. You don't know what the, right? I mean, isn't that the issue?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
How many companies do you think have decided, you know, look, this is no way to run a global economy, but how many companies are going to behave in Darwinistic fashion, meaning, well, I'm going to go get mine. I'm going to do what it takes to get my exemption. I'm going to save my business. What do I got to do? Do I got to write a check to his inaugural committee, to this library fund?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
What's your expectation? And I guess, how do you price that into your analysis?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Es ist nicht ein Nummer im Journalismus in diesen Tagen, aber ich verabschiede mich.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Oh, and shareholders will sue if you don't. I mean, that is the truth. We're not just saying it. There is some truth to this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Or consumers. I mean, look, it's all anecdotal, but just in my own neighborhood, I know of people that have decided not to put their house on the market. They were retiring. You're just sort of, everybody's cautious. So individuals are cautious about what are considered big purchases in their life. I assume every corporation in the world is cautious in the moment.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
President Trump is trying to blame other people for his decisions, right? His decisions on tariffs have caused essentially a global economic freakout, is probably the best way. I want to be careful using the words calamity, although I think we are in a situation that isn't good and could end up In a calamity. Hopefully cooler heads would prevail before it became a total disaster.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Leere Hände bleiben leere für ein bisschen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Und wir haben bereits die Regierungssteuern, die wirklich die Mittelklasse attackieren. Ja, ich meine, das scheint der echte Schaden zu sein, den das der Ökonomie verursachen könnte, ist, dass die Arbeit der Regierung so viele Jahre die Reise nach der mittleren Klasse gedauert hat. Und nur das zu haben, fühlt sich ein bisschen selbstverletzend an unserer Ökonomie an.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Weil die Regierung ist immer Sicherheit. Du hast die Fähigkeit getradet, einen großen Betrag zu machen. with instead public service and a more secure retirement.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
I want to focus on China a second, because if the goal was to weaken China, um, We had done that over the last decade, I'd argue. It seems as if when you look at what he was dealing with with his middle class, what he was dealing with with the housing market in China. And there's a part of me, just geopolitical terms, feels as if
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Trump hat es seltsam, dass er die Schia-Leitlinie, zumindest eine politische Leitlinie, angeboten hat, weil er jetzt seine domestische Publikum sagen kann, dass es die Furcht von Amerika ist, dass diese Ökonomie gerade schwach ist, weil es eine schwache Ökonomie in China war, aber was sie sich zu einem gewissen Zeitpunkt gewohnt haben. Und er wird tatsächlich richtig sein.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Es ist nicht nur eine Entschuldigung. Was war das Zustand der chinesischen Ökonomie domestisch? Wie fragil war es, become and is this going to do more harm or does he get this political stability from what Trump's doing?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
But there is not a lot of daylight in sight here of how this gets better. At best, we may be living in an era of high inflation, high interest rates, which would just be probably an era of high unemployment as well. And that is something else. Buy off the markets. All right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Look, and I look at the situation with NATO in Europe. And if you're a member of the EU and you're a member of NATO, you're sitting there going, boy, how reliable is the United States? And if NATO was still a very stable and something... I always wonder, imagine how willing our European partners might be to take a hit for us on trade if we were still truly providing the security umbrella.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
But now that we're questioning the security umbrella... You have EU going, well, maybe we need to cut our own deal with China that's different and not have to worry about, this is no longer about the West. The irony is that in the first Trump administration, the stuff with Huawei, there seemed to be a plan. And maybe Lighthouser ran a better shop than this current administration.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
But there was, and we got the Western allies to distance themselves from Chinese tech, right? Canada did, a lot of members that you did. I don't see any incentive for them to do that this time.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
I mean, that seemed like... This is where I have, you lose respect for political leaders because, you know... Both parties knew this was the right thing to do, and then they both panicked when their political, each political base, right, the D-Side and the R-Side, exploded over it, and it was weaponized and mischaracterized and all of this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
But, I mean, you know, this is, to me, all those leaders that backed away from the TPP, I don't want them in charge anymore.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Wir werden nicht wissen, was wir nicht wissen. Ja. Auf dieser Seite. Wenn es... Wenn es um... This is where I think people get lost in the concern about where this economy is headed. The bond market seems to have some impact on Donald Trump. And obviously this is how we finance our debt.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
So how vulnerable, what are you looking for in the bond market to tell us about the health of our economy and frankly the health of our ability to still be the the reserve currency and the sort of the economic engine of the globe.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
As good as gold, literally, right? Yeah. Almost as good as gold.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Ich wollte nur sagen, es ist das Gleiche wie Geld in deinem Kühlschrank zu behalten. Sie erinnert sich an die Depressionen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Where will they put their money instead?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Now, what does this mean to the cost of financing our debt?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
I assume it's only going to, I mean, if interest rates are going up in the bond market, I assume financing our debt suddenly becomes that much more expensive.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
What would it take to stabilize the bond market right now?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
To put it, you know, that quick low interest rates would get people feeling good about throwing some money back into the market, getting some cash that way. And it would soften the blow that his tariffs have delivered to the global economy. But that's only, you know, there's no evidence that that's a good idea.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
If he fired Jay Powell, what would happen to the markets and to the world's trust in our treasuries?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Es ist schwer, den Kopf der Märkte zu lesen, aber ich vermute, dass Montag der frühere Morgen-Kreis ist. Und ich sage das, weil man nie weiß, ob die Dinge sich wiederholen können. Aber wie du und ich reden, als wir angefangen haben zu sprechen, war es fast 1.000 Punkte runter. Ich vermute, das ist wegen der Threaten von Pau.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
So I had a, I'm going to I had a lunch with Jay Powell probably 18 months ago. No, now you're bragging. Now you're bragging. No, no, no, totally. It was one of those, I was trying to get him to come on Sunday shows. He's still not ready to do that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
But he really was more open to speaking to non-economic journalists, to try to, frankly to, you know, and I'll, so when we were in his office, he took me down the wall of Fed chair pictures on this part, I feel comfortable revealing. And he just simply said, he points to Arthur Burns and he said, Every Fed Chair doesn't want to be him. Is that what it was?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
I mean, it was just sort of like it was interesting. And it was because like those like when you look back, how did we get the inflationary? How did the 70s go so badly? You know, he points to that. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
As an example, which Das ist ziemlich erstaunlich für mich. Ich dachte, das wäre interessant, aber es gibt dir ein bisschen Hinweise darauf, wie alle diese Leute denken.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
So you expect a rise of economic nationalism. I mean, do you look at, you said you're sort of, I do the same thing with politics. In fact, what makes me feel better is when I find historical parallels. Because then I say, well, we got out of it then, we'll get out of it. It means there's a path out. How similar is this to the 1920s and 30s?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
And if anything, if you look back at the 70s, when Nixon browbeat a Federal Reserve Chair to do this, it was a disaster. And I will tell you, and you'll hear a story that I tell Mark Zandi about the infamous Arthur Burns, who was the Fed Chair that Nixon browbeat at the time. Look,
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
It's actually higher now. It's actually higher now, if the person actually implemented it. Higher than anything McKinley did even, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Well, it's when our economy, I mean, it seems to me, you know, I look at it in this macro. It's like whenever we have a technological change that's impacting the economy and we have a shift, right? Yeah. You know, we were moving from agrarian to industrial economy. And everybody was trying to protect their thing right in that moment. And there's this fear. And I sort of understand that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
And, you know, we've been we've been basically going through a 30 year transition starting in the 90s. Right. NAFTA in some ways was the first line in this was the first first trade deal under this circumstance where we were shifting from a from a nationalist economy in general, like every country for themselves to a more multilateral economy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
global economy, because we were moving from an industrial to a service, or digital, or frankly, I don't know if we've even named this economy yet, but what we are in is not industrial, we know that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
This is why history rhymes, right? It's not quite repeats itself, but it's pretty close.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Well, I actually understand then, it's funny, like Republicans being anti-free trade in the 20s and 30s, Wenn du denkst, dass sie die Partei des Geschäfts waren, waren all diese Unternehmen sehr domestisch orientiert. Sie hatten nicht wirklich viel Handel, richtig? Also machte es Sinn, dass sie immer nervös waren, ihren Status zu verlieren. Sie wollten Schutz.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Ist das der richtige Weg, das zu lesen?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
President Trump's going to get an opportunity to replace Jay Powell if he chooses to when his term expires in May of 2026. But if he spends the next essentially year Threatening on and off to fire him, you're going to get more troubling days like you saw Monday in the markets. There'll be more of this. Already there is concern about whether the US dollar is a safe haven.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
We're the handful of countries that are the most vulnerable to our trade war right now. And I look at it this way. I have this great fear that we're just creating more people to hate us. We're going to find out one day that some terrorist attack is by the son of somebody's small business that got totally wiped out by the American tariffs of 2025.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
This stuff takes sometimes years for it to fetter, but are there certain regions or certain countries that, you know, sort of are just starting to enjoy the fruits of a global economy that this is just going to utterly gut that really has you concerned?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Ich wollte nur wissen, ob Vietnam wirklich stärker werden wird als die meisten.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
I want to get you out of here on this, and it's more of a macroeconomic question for you, and maybe it's something that belongs as an assignment for future economists. But I think about the Great Recession and the pandemic. And in the Great Recession, the government response, I think collectively, we've all decided, was underwhelming. It should have been more. And we ended up in a recession.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
And it was a really damaging recession. With the pandemic, I always looked at the reaction of the government and saw it as a...
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
lesson learned from the great recession right and they threw a lot of money right we threw a ton of money at it and it seems as if he's to be very i'm going to be armchair um economist here that basically in a situation when an emergency like that whether it's the great recession or the um pandemic you have two choices a recession or inflation Ist es so einfach?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
There's concern about whether US treasuries are a safe haven. The more the independence of our economic system is threatened... We're already threatening the independence of the rule of law. That's pretty clear. He has decided to take over the Justice Department. His way is the highway. If he does this with the economy, there's going to be a lot of people who take their money and run.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Und ich denke, ich nehme die Inflation jedes Mal, weil die Rezession die Leute aus der Arbeit bringt. Ich würde lieber, dass Leute Geld in ihren Händen haben und sich über den Preis der Dinge kümmern, als nicht Geld in ihren Händen zu haben, um etwas zu kaufen. Aber ist das die Lektion, die man von der Pandemie und der großen Rezession auswählen kann? Oder bin ich ein Armchair-Economist?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Some of it, but we did give money. We gave people a lot of extra cash.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Und es war wirklich so, dass die Nutzungskette sich ausarbeiten wird. Es war. Und es war sich ausarbeiten.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
This is one of those where you can't put it on anything else other than the witness of one person. Well, if you enjoyed this conversation with Mark, go find his podcast and subscribe away. Alright, Mr. Zandy, always a pleasure. Take care, Chuck.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
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The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
They are going to flee because you cannot... You cannot sit here and assume everything is stable here. So, look, I think this is more of an alarming situation than folks realize. And I understand that we have all sorts of things to get concerned about. He has made a decision that this is... Donald Trump is going to he wants to reshape everything about government and culture in America, period.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Because government produced data is really important for so many economists. So I really hope that with all the mess of Mr. Chainsaw over there at X, I hope he does respect the need not to mess with the data collectors when it comes to the Bureau of Labor Statistics and a lot of the other key economic figures we get, the census, etc.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
This stuff is essential for being able to build a better country and run a better business. Alright, I'm going to sneak in a couple questions here. It's time for a little Ask Chuck. Enjoy the music there. As a high school teacher of international business, I am concerned Trump doesn't understand how tariffs really work. So writes, this is Miss Lori from Deerfield Beach, Florida.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
I know exactly where you are, North Broward County. It seems my students know, but Trump does not. His actions sure make it hard to apply the U.S. historical practices of global trade to what is happening today. Do you think this will be the new normal for the United States or just a Trump phase? You know, it's interesting. You do worry, like how much...
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Und ich weiß, das klingt elitistisch und schnabbisch. Wie viel haben wir für Amerika verdammt? Es gibt einen Teil von mir, der froh ist, dass mehr Menschen engagiert sind. Joe Biden erhängt neue Tarife und niemand spricht darüber. Also gibt es einen Teil von mir, der tatsächlich die Tatsache erfreut, dass Donald Trump diese Augen teilt. Also fordert er uns, darüber zu sprechen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Also in Theorie hoffe ich, dass wir als Lehrer hier arbeiten können. And in fact, you actually are picking at something that I think we all in the journalism space need to do a better job of, which is let's not assume anybody knows these things. This isn't what a lot of people do for a full time job. You're a teacher.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
You have an opportunity to teach your class these things, use the real news to explain things. And I think we as journalists need to do a better job of educating people of how of what tariffs are. I mean, one of the better explanations I saw came from Jim Fallows. Longtime journalist, still, I think, has an association with the Atlantic. He's sort of semi-retired.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
But he talked about in his Substack, he referred to tariffs as essentially, it's like tariffs are a tool. You know, it's just like, you know, the police have a lot of tools that if, you know, the you-know-what hits the fan, they're prepared. But most of the tools they have, they're never going to use or they hope to rarely use. And that tariffs are essentially that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
There's something that you have. Every country can use it. If you need to protect an economic interest or a private interest in your country and your nationality, this is a tool potentially for it. Now, I think that history shows tariffs are bad long-term policy, but they can help you short-term negotiate. You know, perhaps it's a way to open up a market with a market that's closed, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Imagine if the United States were in the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade agreement that Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton were going to negotiate until 2020. Bernie Sanders hat den Demokraten gesagt, dass es eine schlechte Idee war. Eigentlich waren viele Republikaner dafür, auch Paul Ryan und Mitt Romney, bis Donald Trump seine Unterstützer gesagt hat, dass es eine schlechte Idee war.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Aber der ganze Punkt davon war nicht, einen neuen ökonomischen Freitag-Verein zu erschaffen. Der ganze Punkt davon war, eine Karte auf China zu stellen und essentiell Asien zusammen zu verbinden. the sort of the Asian economies that are not China and band together to frankly coerce China into behaving ethically because they don't really practice ethical economic behavior. So, you know, it's
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
It's I think the the whole idea of a tariff. Look, I have this thesis that he that what Donald Trump's real goal with this and including with those that around him is that they eventually want to replace income tax money with essentially trying to get it this way using some combination of tariffs and our own version of a value added tax, some sort of that tax. This is you could argue that kind of.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
And he's going to try to do this a million ways. I mean, he's trying to figure out ways to convince people to have more babies to solve a demographic problem that we're running on rather than do what America has done for generations. Basically 250 years, which is invite people to emigrate to this country, because what is it? And I sort of I'm sorry, folks see this as a negative.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
At the heart, there's always been this sort of fantasy among some on the right of a so-called fair tax or a flat tax. Everybody pays the same thing. In some ways, this is a derivative of that, you know, but it wouldn't, you know, maybe it's only on consumption. Essentially, move all taxation to consumption taxation. No income tax. Vielen Dank.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
I think there's a few things at play here that haven't fully been reported out or baked out. But on the issue of terrorists, you're right. I think I think Donald Trump only sees it as a as a, you know, essentially a nail and he's the hammer. Right. And that's what you use a terror for. When there are a lot of other ways that you might use tariffs, but the real goal is to not to have them, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
The real goal is that trade policy is so fair, you don't need tariffs, right? The real goal with somebody that decides to use their Second Amendment rights to buy a firearm in their house is never to use one. And I, you know, at least the responsible gun owners, I know their goal is to never actually having to fire it beyond going to a range to make sure they know how to do it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
And that's the way, probably to me, the best way we should be looking at tariffs. All right. Laurie, good luck. In some ways, I think it's good that we have this real world example for you to teach from. But I take your point. Not easy. Our next question comes from a Michael Hammond. And he asked this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Over the years we have seen increasing partisanship and dysfunction in American politics and the journalism that covers it. What can ordinary citizens who consume political news do to be part of the solution and not part of the problem of hyper-partisanship in the media and politics? Well, I mean, you know, to me, the best way is to try to have a diverse media diet.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
You know, I don't like the fact that you have to do the work. Right. I wish that you could trust a media outlet to provide a balanced diet for you that, you know, I think there really unfortunately is a one news organization. I used to say The Washington Post that kind of if you combine The Washington Post and The Wall Street Journal.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
dass man einen ziemlich guten Balance bekommt, besonders auf der Meinung- und Analyseseite von Dingen. Du hättest eine wirklich gute, solide Beratung, nimm die New York Times für international, richtig? Du könntest, ich könnte einen Fall machen, dass du einen Teil aller drei dieser Bücher nehmen könntest und extrem gut informiert sein würdest.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
The editorial boards, you really have, I think, very liberal with The Times. I would say more of the pre-Trump conservatism with The Journal.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
And then you have The Washington Post, which is sort of, you know, probably a soft lean to the left, but tries to be, I think, has a editorial page, even before Jeff Bezos started messing around with it, that actually was known as not being totally on one side or the other. But it's all about diversifying your diet of news.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
I grew up, my father got us both a National Review and a New Republic, plus we got the three news magazines. I think he even had Insight magazine, which was an up-and-coming conservative magazine back in the day. He always wanted a lot of different, I think we got The Nation at one point too. He always wanted different points of view coming into the house.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
And that's about the best thing we can hope for. You know, I hope you, you know, I look at different things on the right, you know, the places that I feel that I make sure I don't miss or National Review and the Dispatch in particular. I'm always curious what Eric Erickson has to say. You know, I follow his feed pretty closely.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
And then I also want to know what Charlie Kirk's up to, because I think in some ways Charlie Kirk is channeling what the Trump White House communication shop is putting out. So to me, you've got to diversify yourself. I want to know what Megyn Kelly is up to on the left. I'm always curious what the Pod Save America guys are up to.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
And at the same time, what MSNBC is focused on, what Rachel Meadows focused on and things like that. So I just think that a balanced diet of information can make you a better citizen and probably will calm your nerves a little bit. Because if you have a balanced diet of information,
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Wenn du, weißt du, schau dir die Olympischen Spiele jedes zwei Jahre an. Weißt du, warum Amerika so gut in den Olympischen Spielen funktioniert? Weil wir uns nicht, wir haben uns nicht in eine Einheit oder eine demografische Gruppe eingekleidet, weil das ist, wie unsere Länder organisiert sind.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Hopefully you're subscribing to me in this podcast, because I'd like to think I'm trying to give you what I call rational left and rational right. This is going to sound like a name drop, because it is. But Bono once called me a radical centrist. I was at an off-the-record dinner with him, and only the way he could do it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
It's one of those moments that you kind of wish, like, boy, I wish I could record you. Who else has Bono? politically identifying. It's like, you're a rational centrist, a radical centrist, he called me. I'm like, what is a radical centrist? And, you know, what I always have said about that is actually I'm not a centrist per se. I have different views on different issues. I'm an eclectic.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
My political views are like my music taste. It's all over the place. But I am a believer that you solve problems from the middle out when you're a country this diverse and this large. So I'm always seeking News and information from sources that I know live in that world. That doesn't mean they're all left or they're all right or they're all centrist.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
But it means, do they all live in the rational, logical world? And that's sort of where I go. So I wish I could give you a better answer. There is no one place, but I will promise you this. I think if we rebuild a local information ecosystem that people trust again locally, that over time it only is going to make the new information ecosystem more trustworthy, even all the way up top.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
But we're not going to fix the national perception of national journalists by, you know, starting more substacks or going more independent. I think it really does start with local. All right, last question for this one. And then I'm going to let you guys go. I have no real rants, although I am preparing for the NFL draft, which is being hosted in Green Bay. Meine Packers.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Ich weiß, ihr alle sagt, ihr seid so seltsam. Leute lieben es, meine seltsamen Sportstätten zu nennen. Die Nats, die Packers, die Hurricanes. Ich bin überall auf dem Markt. Siehst du, es ist wie meine Politik. Okay, letzte Frage. This comes from John S. And he writes, love the new podcast. Thank you. Ding, ding. By the way, like and subscribe. Have you liked and subscribed lately?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
And told five friends to like and subscribe. Here's the question. Assuming that President Trump's new tariff policies cause a recession in the United States, could the president use an executive order to postpone the midterm elections in order for the Republicans to maintain a majority in the House and Senate? Here's his background. I was a supporter of Trump during the first term.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
I've been a supporter of Ukraine and have followed the conflict the past three years. What I've heard from the president say about Ukraine has opened my eyes. I know a lot about current and past dictators. So he's getting worried about the U.S. going down the wrong path. When I think about all these democracy questions, right? Could he do this? Could he serve a third term? Could he?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Unsere Länder sind organisiert als eine Idee, nicht aufgrund eines religiösen Gruppes oder eines ethnischen Gruppes oder einer demografischen Gruppe oder einer Art von Identität in dieser Weise. Unsere Identität ist eine Idee. Die Idee von Amerika. Also was bedeutet das? Die Amerikaner kommen in allen Formen und Größen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
The answer is no. This is where I think our democracy, do I think, and you're going to hear a conversation later this week with a really smart person about, you know, what is a kleptocracy and are we about to become one? There are certainly some corrupt practices that Donald Trump has appears to be green lighting when it comes to access to the federal government. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
We've already seen it with Elon Musk and his relationship. There's clearly, you know, where suddenly his businesses are getting early access. So but, you know, yeah, it's our democracy is very intertwined, very local, too. So I just the ability to just wave that magic wand. I'm not saying that There aren't methods if we were somehow in a hot war, right? Ukraine had to cancel it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Speaking of Ukraine, Ukraine did postpone its presidential election because they got invaded. So, you know, but my goodness, we were in the middle of the Civil War and we had a presidential election. So... I can't imagine any president thinking they could get away with that without... If Congress didn't intervene then, then when would this Republican Congress ever intervene?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
But on that one, I know that I have a friend of mine in my ear saying, failure of imagination, failure of imagination, you never know. I understand that you never know. And perhaps... You know, the biggest jump in odds are from zero to one. So I guess you could say it isn't zero. I just don't believe there's any rational scenario where he could try it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
But I actually think there's just no way that... I'd like to think our democracy is mature enough that there would be such a uproar and rejection of it that it was not something that was even possible to do. So... I'm going to leave you on that uplifting note. I hope you're enjoying the NBA playoffs. I am. But if Oklahoma City ends up winning the whole thing.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
As easily as they won their first game. We may look back and say, no matter how cool all these Western Conference matchups were, it didn't matter. Because nobody was touching OKC. It was like what happened when I was growing up in the Lakers. Every year the Lakers ended up the Western Conference champs. But boy, there were some fun series sometimes that were competitive and interesting.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Und weil die Amerikaner in allen Formen und Größen kommen, können wir tatsächlich in jedem Olympischen Sport, der es möglicherweise ist, kämpfen. Und deshalb wollen Sie wissen, warum wir so gut in diesen Metallkonten arbeiten, weil wir so viel Diversität haben, wer ein Amerikaner ist, wer ein Amerikaner wird, wer für Amerika kämpft.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
And you thought, oh, that guy's interesting. Oh, that guy's interesting. And then they went up against the juggernaut that was the Lakers. Es ist möglich, das ist das, was wir mit OKC sehen. Aber hey, wisst ihr was? Bis sie etwas gewinnen, können wir fantasieren und träumen. Und gerade jetzt, diese NBA-Playoffs, könnte eigentlich etwas wertvolles zu sehen sein.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Also mit dem, ich werde dich wahrscheinlich in noch 24 Stunden auf diesem Feed sehen. Also genießt das und erkennt, dass noch mehr kommt, bis wir wieder aufladen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
And I know that seems like a simplistic way to look at it, but this is among the reasons why we've been so successful. And that's the hardest part of watching this manmade destruction of of America's role as the leader of the global economy, is that we've been pretty good stewards of this. There have been a heck of a lot worse stewards in the history of civilization. And it's gone pretty well.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
We went a good 60, 70 years without major wars and major essentially catastrophic things for humankind. And that was during Our role as leader of the free world. So to think we need to upend all of this because we've had some people, I mean, and that's the thing. We're a diverse country in so many different ways.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
So what has hurt some parts of the country with trade deals absolutely has hurt your Ohio's and Iowa's. It has helped the South Carolinas and the Tennessees. So, and overall, it has helped all of America. Ja, genau. Based on gut rather than any sort of plan, any sort of idea.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
And that's been you know, that's been at the center of my critiques lately, is that nothing that the Trump administration has done beyond throwing doing all of this at once. Other than that, that was a plan. And there's certainly, you know, I can knock down my house with a sledgehammer pretty quickly, but it's going to take me months to rebuild it after I do that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
So he has been able to use a sledgehammer to government, use a sledgehammer to the tariff regimes around the world. He's been able to do that. But rebuilding is going to take at best months. and more likely years. And what are we rebuilding? Are we going to be rebuilding in a weaker position? Are we going to have inadvertently strengthened our chief adversary, China?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Welcome back to another episode of the Chuck Toddcast. My guest today is the chief economist at Moody's Analytics. It is Mark Zandi. He is somebody I have known for, frankly, over a decade. I got to know him during the Great Recession.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
It certainly looks as if that we've possibly done this. And so, you know, I said it earlier and I'll say it again. I think if there is a common denominator here when it comes to the Trump administration, it really is not a well-run administration. This presidency is a mess. The Pentagon is a mess. The Justice Department is a mess.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
While they've had some success at the border, clearly they're not following the law when it comes to who gets deported. There's a rush to judgment there. There's been a rush to do what they've done at Doge. And so there really is, I'd say the through line here is that this is the gang that can't shoot straight. I think there's some other ideas or good ideas.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Let's figure out how to make government more efficient. Let's figure out how to encourage manufacturing to come back. But let's be realistic about it. Let's be 21st century about it. We're not trying to recreate the manufacturing of the 1950s.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
which is what Donald Trump seems to be trying to do, we're trying to figure out how America continues to push forward and continues to be the leader in different industries. And if the industry is changing to a more digital economy, a more service-driven, tech-driven economy, we want to be on the cutting edge of that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Do we still want to be making widgets if widgets are certainly something that people will buy, but enough of them? It really is sort of a head scratcher. And I think this is, I understand there's an entire group of people who think we don't want any experts.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
But I'll tell you, we're now seeing what happens when you have an administration put together by people who have a lot of inexperience, have never run large organizations. I mean, clearly that's what we're seeing with Pete Hegseth at the Pentagon. This is a guy just way in over his head. auf so vielen Ebenen, nicht genau verstehen, warum diese Protokolle im ersten Moment existieren.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Man kann nicht nur jeden Soldaten für den Pentagon beurteilen. Man muss dort ein gewisses Wissen haben, um Leute zu führen, ein gewisses Wissen, um eine Masse zu führen. Ich meine, das ist die größte Entität im föderalen Regierung. Der Fakt, dass du jemanden wählst, von dem ich nicht weiß, ob er der CEO seines eigenen Checking-Accounts ist, ist wieder einmal einer dieser Kopfhörer.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
He is sort of one of the go-to guys when it comes to understanding the global economy, understanding which countries have good debt and bad debt and things like that. when there was a threat to the United States' credit rating. He was somebody that was on the front lines of sort of explaining and how this works. And I have him today because I think he will do a good job of explaining sort of
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Also, schau, diese Gespräche mit Mark Zandy, wie gesagt, denke ich, dass es dir helfen wird, zu verstehen, warum, was du im Warenmarkt zu beachten musst. Es geht nicht um die Einzelhandel. Es geht darum, ob du es erlauben wirst, ein Haus zu kaufen. Whether you're going to be able to afford to sell your house and make a couple of dollars and downsize or whatever it is you're trying to do.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
But I can tell you right now, our economy has been paralyzed by these decisions. And I do think this conversation with Mark Sandy will at least help you understand what to watch for in the next three to six months and then what to watch for in the next two to three years so that you can figure out what's in your best interest going forward. So with that, I'm going to sneak in a quick break.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
And when we come back, my conversation... with the Chief Economist of Moody's Analytics, Mark Zundel.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
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The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
And joining me now is the Chief Economist at Moody's Analytics. It's somebody that I, if you watched me at NBC over the years, I leaned heavily on this gentleman, Mark Zandi. Particularly during the Great Recession, that's when we got to know each other. And it's good to have him here now to try to...
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
What I'm hoping is to sort of, as I say when it comes to economists, speak American and help people navigate. You know, they hear things about the bond market and the dollar, if it weakens. And I think there's a lot of people that They think they know what that stuff means, but they really don't. And they're afraid to ask.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
And so in some ways, I'm hoping, Mark, that you can help people get smarter about this. But before we get started on sort of what's happening with the current economy, because frankly, it's actually really difficult. Sometimes, you know, everything's moving so fast. We're taping on a Monday late morning.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Du wirst überrascht wissen, dass die Märkte nicht gut funktionieren, aber wer weiß, vielleicht ändert sich das. Aber was sagst du Leuten, was Moody's Analytics ist? Was ist die Ausführung von Moody's Analytics?
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
Yes, yes, yes. You were one of the good things to come out of it, getting to know you and your expertise.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
You're going to hear you've been hearing a lot of things about the economy, the tariffs, the impact of the tariffs on the markets and how this could have this long lasting impact on America's sort of economic standing in the world, the value of the dollar, the value of U.S. Treasury bonds, a.k.a. our debt, right? Financing our debt, getting essentially.
The Chuck ToddCast
Will Donald Trump’s Trade War Tank The U.S. Economy?
And the rating service also helps people. Companies and countries borrow money, right? Depending on how well they're rated, the interest rate goes up or down.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
I'm just saying. But I agree with you. I love – it is – that whole bridge, Clemente Bridge, it's a beautiful setting.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Yeah. Pittsburgh's a football town first, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
That wasn't even it. And when you use your bathroom here, it's all terrible towels, right? For your hand towels, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
I've lived with Aaron Rodgers. It is what it is. On the field can be fantastic.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Exactly, exactly. Many people believe you're a unique individual.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
So we are 67 days into the new administration. What do you say to your Democratic friends that are having a complete and utter freak out?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
than Republican-based voters. It's the same phenomenon we saw in 2017, same phenomenon, frankly, we saw in 2018. There is something that I believe that exists. I call them shotgun Trump voters, meaning when Trump's on the ballot, they vote. And when Trump's not on the ballot, they don't. Well, Trump wasn't on the ballot in Wisconsin and his people didn't come out enough.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
And we would hear, there was clear you were a cover for a lot of guys and gals.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
You were elected to represent a state that has also elected a Republican to be your counterpart in the Senate, has voted Democrat for president and Republican for president all within the period that you've held elective office. Yeah, I know.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
So when you, you know, it's interesting to me because some elected officials think their job is to represent their voters first versus representing all of the state. And then there is others who take the job of saying, you know, look, yeah, there's my voters, but I have to represent the interests of the entire state. Clearly, I think you've been a former mayor. I get where you're coming from.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
But is that really the divide these days?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Trump wasn't on the ballot in Florida one or Florida six. And the Republican candidates underperformed by 15 and 20 points, respectively. And if you want to know why Elise Stefanik, the New York congresswoman who was once a member of leadership and was tagged to be the next ambassador to the United Nations and why her nomination was yanked last week.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
When is it worth protesting when you know you're going to lose? Is it ever worth protesting again? even when you know you're going to lose.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Even in the signal gate or whatever silly name is going to be given to it, do you think people in Washington County care?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
And it wasn't like- Who's that on? Do you guys need to do a better job of explaining why USAID is good for America? Well, sure.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
So what do you think the best way is to communicate to those folks?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
All you have to do is look at the results of what happened on Tuesday night, because she's from a district in upstate New York that Donald Trump carried by about 20 points. The two districts in Florida were districts that Trump carried by 30 points.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
One of the early special election victories for Democrats took place in Pennsylvania last week. Sure. No, absolutely. Do you think this is a sign?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
There's a lot of debate about what happened in 2024. Can I talk about that?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
And the fact of the matter is an underperformance by 15 to 20 points by a Republican candidate in that New York district is the difference between Democrats and winning or losing. There was enough pad for Republicans to win both special elections. in Florida. These were very Republican districts.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Do you think voters embraced Trumpism with this decision or simply rejected the culture of the Democrats?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Why do you think some Fetterman voters from 22 or from some of your voters ended up voting for Trump? How would you explain it?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
The Stefanik District, which is not that far from the Albany region there, it's a pretty conservative district, not nearly as deep red Republican as Florida 1 or Florida 6. So everything we saw on Tuesday night explains the actions of what we saw earlier with the decision on Stefanik. The fact of the matter is Washington Republicans are starting to get nervous.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
What do you think of – it looks like he's taken a sledgehammer to things that could use a scalpel. How does Congress force itself to have more of a role in this Doge business?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Is there any part of – I mean, would you want to play – if they invited – made this a congressionally mandated, hey, we've got to – we want to cut 15 percent from the government sort of bureaucracy. Let's get everybody involved.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Do you think a guy with his tech background just can't comprehend that 70-year-old people want a telephone connection?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
You hearing a lot about it? Are people nervous in? Pennsylvania about costs that will be associated with tariffs? Do they make the connection or not yet? Who knows? Who knows?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
The question, of course, is who's to blame? Is this a Donald Trump phenomenon? Or is this an Elon Musk problem? Let me start in Florida, where in many ways, I have a feeling you're going to hear more folks in the White House blaming Ron DeSantis for underperformance in at least one of the districts, and they are Donald Trump or Elon Musk. So Florida 1 is the panhandle district.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
So Todd Young, wasn't Todd Young one of the lead sponsors?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
The decision to... I don't know if we want to call it attack our European allies or sort of threaten them about our – how willing the United States will be with NATO and all of this stuff. How long – do you fear that it's going to take decades for Europeans to trust America again?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
And I don't get that. These are culturally our closest allies. Not just, right, they're close, but culturally, so many Americans share so much. No, no. These are...
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
We read all these things.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Does it feel like we've switched sides?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
What can be done in the Senate? I'm sure some of your Republican colleagues can't stand this, but they're afraid to speak out.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
For those of you that follow the news media, if you remember Joe Scarborough's in Scarborough country in the congressional district that he once represented, it's that congressional district. It's Matt Gaetz's congressional district. So it's had his fair share of famous and infamous representatives in Congress.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Greenland. we all thought was a joke, right? I think we all thought this was some bizarre social media meme. Now it looks like it's a serious obsession.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
And that's part of it. And I accept the Arctic. Look, we don't have access to the Arctic the way the Russians and the Chinese do. Exactly.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
But they would have cooperated with us pretty much on anything we asked because they do want our security, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
It was a DeSantis statewide elected official ally, Jimmy Petronas, who was in that race. The Democratic candidate is somebody who ran the last time. Now, she raised more money than she had had ever in her congressional races. And she did carry one important county, Escambia County, which encompasses Pensacola. And that's a pretty big shock to Florida Republicans.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
I've joked about American imperialism. Post-World War II, NATO was a way for us to have Europe without the responsibility of governing Europe. I mean, I don't mean to be that cynical about it, but that was a cheaper way to do it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
I've always said about Americans don't like the idea that we're the world's policemen. No, no, that's not, that's different. But here's what I will say. I accept the premise because I'd rather have us be America's policemen, well, the world's policemen. If we're not, somebody else is going to be, and we're not going to like that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
The only fear is when I look in the mirror and the only favor is to try to be honest. No BS for you. As you know, starting on a Wednesday, one of the reasons why I will always have a podcast dropping on Wednesdays is because, as you know, as I like to say, is that if it's Tuesday, somebody is voting somewhere.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Well, that's the president, and he invited— Last time I checked, you're a United States senator from a pretty important state, and if the president wants to meet with you, why wouldn't you?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
What if his agenda could you be supportive of in theory?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
And you're gonna see people nationally say, oh, this must be a sign that more and more sort of college educated voters who may be lean right as they do in Pensacola, but aren't quite mega right, are starting to revolt. And that may very well be the case.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Is there no leader until 28?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
So that tells me I'm going to be the way I would interpret that to somebody is, look, there were a lot more people who probably wanted to would have voted to keep the government open. I agree.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Yes, yes. What is it?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
There's a little bit of all politics is local here, and there's a lot of folks in the local political Pensacola community, which is obviously the heart of Escambia County, that are really upset with what Governor DeSantis has been doing with the University of West Florida board. So don't be surprised.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
We're going to make this emergency. We'll open this up. We'll never open this up again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Michael Bennett seemed to indicate frustration not with the decision, frustration with the communication, that it was poorly communicated. You're doing a better job of explaining why you couldn't do it. If you had leverage, you'd have done it, but you didn't have it. One day, the leader, Schumer, says you have leverage. One day, you don't. Did he botch the messaging here?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
No, I understand.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Hello there. Happy Wednesday. It's Chuck Todd. And yes, the Chuck Todd cast is back after a short hiatus. I am back. I am independently owned. I am not part of any media empire. I am a part of the new class of independent journalists. And in some ways, you want to talk about reporting without fear or favor. Well, there's nothing like working for yourself.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Both parties rely heavily on billionaires. That's another truth. How dangerous is that for the democracy?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Everybody has to find their own billionaire, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
if Trump allies sort of lay the problems, the underperformance problems of the Republican candidate, Petronas, more at DeSantis' feet than they do their own feet. Because, you know, what has been interesting about this is when the rumors of close polling in that Florida 6 race, you know, Florida 6 is the congressional district that was vacated by the current National Security Advisor, Mike Walton.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
And it changes what you talk about in the campaign. They can dictate what issues get advertised on. And you don't even get to have the conversation with voters that you, the elected official, want to have.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
about quarterbacks getting big contracts. It doesn't matter. The next one will be bigger.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Would you be uncomfortable if the Democrats found their own billionaire in Mark Cuban and ran him for president?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
I know we're wrapping up, so I'm going to make you answer the 28 question. What would it take to get you to run for president?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Okay. I'm going to put you down as not a no for 28.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Of course, I say current. because he is at the heart of so-called Signalgate, which of course dominated the headlines last week. But more importantly, he's somebody that the MAGA, those in sort of the MAGA right, have had in their sights for a while. And I think Waltz is sitting there, he's in a very precarious position. because he's not seen as a true believer, particularly on foreign policy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
I mean, it's possible that the party is funny. You say that about independent. It's possible that there's people in the middle who feel who feel like the Democrats are going to be too far to the left. Is that your fear?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
I'm guessing your warning is don't over-read into these crowd sizes that AOC and Bernie are getting. Well, I've been at a lot of big events.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
It's funny you say that. My kids are a little bit older than yours. I understand you're on college tours. You're getting ready. You're getting started. I have a senior in high school. We're done. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. And a junior in college. Yeah. You're going to have a good time with these college tours.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
In a normal environment, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Yeah. You tell people it's worse than you imagine?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
He's very much more in line with Marco Rubio, more sort of the Republican sort of national security philosophy pre-Trump than he is sort of more of an America first or an isolationist, however you want to describe sort of what Trump's foreign policy has turned into. So I'm not sure how much... how much leeway Waltz has.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Just on the record, your health. listeners are going to want to wonder.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Thank you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
So there you go. 45 minutes with John Fetterman. I was fascinated to see that he wouldn't shut the door on 2028. Now, full confession, I had to drag it out of him. Let's not pretend he was sitting there going, I'm ready to fly to New Hampshire to file my papers. But he's not saying no. Right. And of course, that's the smart thing to do. And my experience is I've yet to meet a U.S.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
senator, especially one like him, who's been elected a mayor, been elected statewide as lieutenant governor, been elected statewide again as senator that hasn't at least thought about what it would be like to run for the top job. But I think the most important thing I took away from this interview is sort of how he views, I think, himself in the party.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Here he is, somebody who is seen as sort of a almost a pure progressive. He was a hero of progressives when he first won. A lot of them are upset with him lately, but he's trying to to plow or blaze a trail or plow a field for, I think, what he would describe as like a pragmatic progressive. As he said, he's focused on those seven states, right? Those seven states decides who wins or loses.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
And you have to figure out how to win those seven states. So is he a likely candidate for 2028? I think it's too soon to tell. But his focus, he's trying to give a permission slip to others to say, hey, if you want to ever enact progressive policy, you actually got to win elections first.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
You get too far out of the mainstream and you'll be at think tanks pleading with, you know, writing white papers of great ideas, but you won't actually have power and you won't get a chance to enact anything. Now, it's interesting. You don't see Fetterman on many of the 2028 lists. Now, one person you do see
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
on some of these 2028 lists is somebody who just had a 25-hour filibuster, and that's Cory Booker. I think the significance, I actually view the Booker moment as the first real, I would call it the first real attempt at sort of establishing some 2028 credentials. Here he was. He grabbed a leadership moment. He grabbed a moment that nobody else had grabbed just yet. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
And let's not forget, Donald Trump went through four national security advisors in his first term. The likelihood he goes through at least two this time, I think is pretty high. And one thing I've learned about Donald Trump over the years is that the closer you are in proximity to working with him, the more likely he tires of you quicker, right? He had four chiefs of staff in four years.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
You see what Fetterman is doing. He's out there trying to be a little counter, trying to push back at the narrative that the Democrats were too woke. Here's Cory Booker trying to fill the vacuum that a lot of base Democrats are upset with right now. Where's the fight? How come Democrats aren't using whatever positions they have to fight back? So I do think.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Fetterman not shutting the door in twenty twenty eight is going to raise some eyebrows around town and in Democratic circles. But I also think this, Corey, you know, look, I was on the fence of whether I thought Booker would make another run or not.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
I think the juice that he's feel that feels after this, there's no doubt he's at least a guy that's going to say he's considering run for president, because one of the things that many in Washington have figured out is. If you make people think you're thinking about running for president, you get more people to return your call. You get more reporters to call you and want to interview.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
You get more people like me who are interested in what you have to say. But I do think I would look at the Booker thing. By the way, the timing. Booker did his party a solid. Here you had these elections that we talked about at the beginning of this podcast taking place. Essentially, right when he was doing it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
So if you're an activist Democrat, you're frustrated and you were out there in Florida, one, four to six or Wisconsin, and you've been wondering all day about what's going on, you check your social media feed and there's Cory Booker doing what he was doing, sort of dominating the Washington media for a 24 hour period. I think it had it didn't have zero impact on Democratic based turnout.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
And here was somebody who was. So I do think. For Cory Booker, this was a pretty successful 24 hours to sort of reestablishing himself as one of the main potential players. leaders of the party at a time when the party is desperately looking for someone to lead them. Because I think right now, neither Akeem Jeffries or Chuck Schumer are seen as sort of the current leader of the Democratic Party.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
This is a party that is very much leaderless. Anyway, I didn't want to characterize the Fetterman interview before you had a So there you go. That does it for my first relaunched episode of the Chuck Todd cast. This is very exciting being an independent media. I appreciate you tuning in. Don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you either listen or watch this podcast.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
And I'll see you in 24 hours. Our plan is to upload new episodes Wednesdays, Thursdays and Mondays. So with that, until we upload again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
He had four national security advisors in four years. Who are the two people that spend the most physical time with a president? the chief of staff and the national security advisor. So in some ways, the proximity, when it comes to managing your Trump relationships in Washington, if you're Republican, you don't wanna be, you wanna be in the inner circle
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
but you don't wanna be in his office all the time. And in some ways, I think that's what I think eventually is gonna doom Waltz in. But in the Waltz race, the Republicans nominated a gentleman by the name of Randy Fine. Now, DeSantis was hoping Randy Fine would fail. Why?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Well, Randy Fine was one of the first Florida state legislators to break from DeSantis when DeSantis announced his presidential candidate campaign and instead endorsed Trump. And it frankly became the permission slip for a lot of Florida Republicans to abandon the so-called popular governor at the time and Take Trump's side.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
And Trump, of course, loves that type of, call it loyalty, whatever you want to call it. He loves it when he can sort of break somebody on their home turf. And in this case, the fact that fine, and yes, national Republicans had to dump a bunch of money in there to bail them out, to make sure that it wasn't that close in the end. It's still a massive underperformance.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Well, this Tuesday, past Tuesday, April 1st, was a pretty significant Tuesday, at least in the first 100 days. Here we are still in the middle of the first 100 days. of the new Trump administration. We're on day 72, to be exact. And with these early elections, two House special elections in Florida last night and the Wisconsin Supreme Court race that was a statewide election.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
But the irony now, Governor DeSantis had spent the last 48 hours saying, well, the only problem in Florida 6, it's a candidate problem. It's a candidate problem. He really wanted to pin the blame on Randy Fine.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Ironically, that whole story I told you about with the University of West Florida, the Republican that has been been pushing back at DeSantis the most for his bizarre appointments to that board at UWF. Randy Fine. So let's just say in my conversations last night with a few connected Florida Republicans, they view what happened in Escambia County more as a DeSantis issue than as a Trump issue.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
But let's get out of Florida and let's go to Wisconsin. Let me make this clear. Had Democrats lost this Supreme Court race, this would have been catastrophic, right? They should feel good that they won and they had to win. But in many ways, they should win, right? This is almost, we're starting to see the party in power. This is the first test of party in power. You're a swing state.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
You would assume the out party is gonna have the enthusiasm. So a loss here for the Democrats would have been catastrophic. The fact that they won by nearly double digits or in that range,
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
I'm gonna be fascinated to watch throughout today and over the next week, because I talked to quite a few Republicans over the last few days who've been secretly rooting for that if they're gonna lose, that the sort of scenario that happened on Tuesday night was the most survivable scenario. Why? They held the two House seats, so they're not gonna have House vote problems.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
And they can pin Wisconsin on Elon Musk because from for some bizarre reason, Elon Musk chose to insert himself even more so into this race. He became he said, you want to make this a referendum on me? He said, yes, make it a referendum on me. So he spends the final weekend there. The candidate that he was supposedly supporting didn't necessarily want him out there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
But look, I understand why Musk did it. Musk wanted to prove his detractors wrong, that he wasn't the problem, that he wasn't polarizing, that he wasn't a net negative. I think it's pretty clear that he is a problem, that he is a net negative. And I know plenty of Washington Republicans that are hoping the White House gets the message and they just want Musk out of here. Now,
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
If getting Musk out of here and getting him, getting Doge out of the headlines, is that gonna sort of stop the political polling bleeding that we've seen out there? I'm a little skeptical because I think the bigger problem Donald Trump has is tariffs and the economy. But Musk has been quite the distraction. And in some ways, Trump loves the fact that Musk is his heat shield for a while.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
And so I won't be surprised if Trump doesn't actually just dump on Musk too much because he knows the role Musk is playing. And oh, let's not forget, Musk is the single biggest financier right now of the MAGA movement and of Republican Party politics. So they all have interest in keeping him sort of involved because they want his money.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
But I could tell you there are a lot of elected Republicans who are gonna be on the ballot in 2026 that do hope that the message that Washington Republicans receive and that the White House receives for what happened in Wisconsin, it's not a surprise Republicans lost this seat. It is a surprise that they lost a swing state like this by nearly double digits.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
And it is going to be hard to look at this and say, this didn't have at least something to do with Elon Musk. I mean, Democrats, I was, full confession, over the weekend, I was dorking out with my fantasy baseball drafts. I'm in a league that has been around for over 40 years.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
In fact, our league claims to be the second oldest fantasy baseball league in America, outside of the original folks in New York. Well, we do it at a sports bar and we have plenty of TVs on during the draft. and the Milwaukee Brewers are playing the New York Yankees this opening weekend. So what did that mean?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
And look, I will go down rabbit holes later throughout these episodes. I won't do it here. It drives me nuts that we even have elections for judges. I think that is ludicrous. Go read Alexander Hamilton's Federalist Papers on this. We should not be electing judges, but I'm not gonna go on that rant now. What matters here is what did we learn from this?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
I saw a ton of Wisconsin Supreme Court ads in the middle of while I was bidding and frankly overbidding for people like Max Scherzer, because I can't give up my love for Max Scherzer. And every one of the Democratic attack ads featured Elon Musk, not Donald Trump. So the fact is the metrics, the analytics, the messaging was all anti-Musk. And it clearly worked in Wisconsin.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
So what I would say is this. Keep keep track of of what of how Republicans message this this week, how many of them decide to try to not blame. You can't blame Trump right now for anything. It's a lot easier to pile on Musk. And now you have upside. I mean, Musk's more unpopular than any other Republican right now. And now you've got proof that Musk himself was a problem.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Putting himself front and center seemed like a really bad idea. And these election returns in Wisconsin indicate that, yes, it was a really bad idea. So the one thing I'll be watching for is how aggressive, how loud do some Republicans get on Capitol Hill? How gleeful are they, frankly, in trying to
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
in trying to attack Musk and trying to separate themselves from what is becoming more and more unpopular almost by the day. All right, with that, I'm gonna be sneaking in a quick break here. Coming up, I have a fascinating long conversation with John Fetterman. I went to his Senate office to sit down and do it. We talked plenty of politics.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
We talk a little Aaron Rodgers to the Pittsburgh Steelers because Fetterman's a big... Fetterman supports all Pittsburgh sports, but the Steelers are really what he cares about. Let's just say he's got some interesting things to say about Aaron Rodgers, about Donald Trump, about a lot of people that we consider bold-faced names here. So I hope you...
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Listen to the whole thing, because the thing that I'm most excited about now is not doing five minute interviews, not doing the eight minute interviews and having to insert all these gotcha questions here, gotcha questions there. Instead, it's an interview that breathes and hopefully you get the context that you've been looking for. So with that, we'll sneak in a break.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
And on the other side, my conversation with John Fetterman. Well, Senator Fetterman, thanks for doing this. My first independently owned interview for the Czech podcast. Congratulations. Thank you, sir. I appreciate you doing this. Just to signpost this and when we're talking, it's Thursday, opening day for baseball. So I'll go ahead. You have to be a Paul Skeens fan, I assume.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
And I know baseball is not your first love.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Well, we're 72 days in to the Donald Trump administration, and in many ways, it's deja vu all over again. What we're seeing in the Democratic Party's overperformance in these three special elections on April 1st and, frankly, another special election a couple of weeks ago in Pennsylvania for state Senate district is that Democratic based voters are more fired up about voting right now.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
The famous TikTok.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
Travis and Taylor, yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
So she's the bigger star to your son?
The Chuck ToddCast
Chuck Todd Reacts to Special Elections + John Fetterman on Donald Trump & 2028 Presidential Run
I was just going to say, how frustrating is it? I almost wonder if people are stopping their fandom for the Pirates because they feel like every time they invest in a young player, he gets traded somewhere else.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Well, are we now creating a new world order, a different one? Basically, you know, the strongest shall thrive, right? And in many ways, this is, if you examine Donald Trump and what he really thinks when it comes to foreign policy, this really does, you're better off thinking this way than trying to come up with some other reasons why he thinks. He's a very binary thinker in this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Seems to be another big winner out of this. And I don't think this is what Donald Trump intended. You said the EU quite a bit. This seems to be a real opportunity for the EU, perhaps to sort of flex its muscles and maybe finally sort of get itself on a on a on a not an equal playing field, but on a stronger.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
playing field a little bit if they're able to be the western, I guess, way station, if you will, for Asia and Latin America?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
U.S.-driven global... U.S.-driven. This is what's just so mind-boggling, I think, to so many people in the United States, business leaders, political leaders, you name it, which is like, this has all been self-inflicted. Everybody is behaving as if a war just happened or a pandemic just happened, but instead, Trump just happened. That's what happened. That's right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And now he's doing it. Not sure, people, you know, this is, I can tell you, I mean, this is what I think the great misunderstanding of this election, which is, he may have said it, but he said it going into the first election, he didn't do it. There were a lot of people that just assumed, hey, am I going to get Trump 1.0? I'll take that over Biden and Harris 2.0.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Which, that's what people, I think, at least the ones that decided this election, right? And ultimately... I think the markets agreed with you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
There are winners and losers. There's no such thing in Donald Trump's world as win-win. He may say the phrase win-win. He may want people to believe that when he does a deal that he believes he's gotten the better end of the deal, that he'll call it win-win. But he doesn't actually think there's ever an even split. He doesn't really, truly believe there is such thing as a win-win.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
The markets were so surprised because they thought, ah, he's saying it, but he doesn't mean it. He doesn't really mean it because ultimately he doesn't want to. I think, you know, as somebody put it, maybe you did it in your newsletter today. He doesn't look like a fool for destroying America's economic leadership. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
That bothers him that people with more money than him will think he's a he's an idiot. Right. So that weirdly can serve as a guardrail with him. But I don't know. You know, he seems increasingly isolated. But I want to go back to you, because it does feel as if they're potentially a beneficiary here, if frankly they know how to take advantage of this moment.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
American State. Frankly, our standard of living, I mean, this is the This is the frustrating thing about people not understanding how good we have it here. How good we have it. How better our standard of living is in Mississippi compared to every other member of the G7, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Let's go back to China. How much has Donald Trump's moves... sort of helped to bail Xi out a little bit, right? He's got his own domestic economic issues. The fact of the matter is, I would argue, decoupling over the last three or four years, frankly, what was started under Trump and continued under Biden, was having the desired effect on China, right? We were the pivot to India. And
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And so when you think of it that way, this is why he almost views every country that's not China and Russia as essentially a secondary power. And that they are somehow having to graft on. They're either a secondary power in Russia's sphere of influence, a secondary power in China's sphere of influence, or you're a secondary power in America's sphere of influence.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
In typical Trump fashion, I guess you could look at it as impatience. If the long-term goal was to essentially weaken China, this was happening. Just not at a huge speed a little bit, but it was potentially happening. But this seems to, if anything, provide Xi a lifeline to perhaps... get better relations with some of the Asian countries that would have preferred U.S.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
protection, both on security, but also having an economic partnership. And now it's, you know, well, geez, there's China's over here in our region. Not crazy about them as a partner, but I don't know what to make of the United States these days. I guess I got to take this meeting with China. The point is, it just feels like we handed China a huge opportunity when actually they were...
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
I want to say in retreat. They were on their heels a little bit.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
I do think that if you that was probably the view of 90 of out of 100 senators.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
This was so naive. So is that good or bad? I know. This was so naive on our part, right? What is the mother of invention, right? Necessity sometimes? Necessity. Yes. I mean, what did you think? They have a billion people. You don't think they can find some that have just as smart of brains as our guys do on this? I mean, it really was, frankly, one of those...
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Ridiculous American Exceptionalism moments.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And so when you think about it in those terms, it's possible at least to understand perhaps why he has behaved the way he's behaved with Ukraine, for instance. You sit here and you ask yourself, boy, Ukraine has done everything the president's asked. Russia has not. And yet we have no ceasefire. And yet the president is not lecturing Putin for not coming to the table.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Well, the thing that I've always sort of disagreed also with the Trump team on this is this idea that they're convinced the Chinese model is going to work. Look, I believe that the Chinese have built a middle class that are going to start demanding things. And this is, you know, we saw it in our own country.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
I look at the beginnings of the 20th century and we're using child labor, we're doing all sorts of frankly terrible abusive things, right? And what happened? The middle class said, uh-uh, we need these rights, we need these rights, we need these rights. Well, we were a democracy, so there were lots of avenues to do this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
You know, I've always thought the weight of that was the best check we had on China. A check that their own people were eventually going to put on them. And this is where it frustrates me to essentially accelerate this, because now Now you're essentially giving Xi an opportunity to blame America for their current economic woes, which is some truth to that now, too, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
It's going to accelerate it. And buy himself more time with a middle class that we, again, there are lots of little pieces of evidence that this is becoming an issue for them, whether it's the housing issue that they were dealing with or what we saw during COVID. And so it really is, I think, a An over estimation of the strength of the CCP.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
But he didn't mind lecturing Zelenskyy when Zelenskyy was already at the table. And I know there's plenty of other nefarious reasons that some people might apply to this idea of why Trump is being more patient with Putin than anything else. But I can tell you this at some point.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
What would life be like right now if there was a TPP? This is for those that don't remember the Trans-Pacific Partnership. This was a trade agreement that basically all of the sort of leadership of both parties was basically in favor of circa 2014. Then the rise of Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
who effectively messaged against it in a way to turn it into NAFTA and sort of used it to weaponize that side of the argument and it killed it in both parties, I'd argue. Obama couldn't get it done. Hillary Clinton pulled back from her support of it. Trump ends up killing it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Und es macht mich lachen, weil ich glaube, es war letzte Woche, als Howard Lutnick darüber sprach, dass wir alle unsere Alliierten in Asien zusammenbringen. Und du warst so, hey, ich habe eine Idee, Alter. Wir hatten dieses Ding, das Transpazifik-Partnerschaft hatte, dass fast jede asiatische Ökonomie mit einer Demokratie involviert ist. Das ist eine gute Idee.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Ich glaube, das ist es jetzt, Herr Lutnick, oder? And of course it does exist, just not with the US.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Donald Trump wird sehen, dass Putin ihn nicht respektiert, dass Putin ihn verwendet, dass Putin denkt, er hat die Kontrolle von Trump. Und eines der Dinge, die Trump in den letzten Jahren als Wunder gemacht hat, ist, dass jeder, der denkt, dass sie irgendeine Art von Haltung über Trump haben, dann das falsch beurteilen möchte.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Look, you work for a consulting group that tries to help business, I think, navigate the global political space. Is that a fair way of describing your business? I mean, we do other things, but sure, that's one of the things. Among the things. So you're asking, a multinational corporation is asking you, okay,
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Trump sagt, dass das Ziel ist, die Produktion in die Vereinigten Staaten zu zurückzuführen. Aber er ist auch offensichtlich in Negotiationen geöffnet. Also vielleicht ist das nicht der Fall. Wo, was sollte, wie sollten wir darauf reagieren? Denn am Ende des Tages werden wir immer noch Business auf drei großen Kontinenten machen. Nordamerika, Europa und Asien.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Wir wollen immer noch Business auf all drei dieser Kontinente machen. Also können wir nicht, du weißt, das ist nicht die 1930er Jahre. In den 1920er und 1930er Jahren haben amerikanische Unternehmen mostly in Amerika gearbeitet. And so, you know, that tariff regime also turned out to be a disaster, but we didn't even have a tenth of the global trade that we have today. So what do you tell them?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Where do you tell them to make their product? Where do you tell them to, is it more of a, you know what, don't do any, don't make any major decisions for the next two years. Let's wait till this shakes out, which of course is just a disaster for the global economy, if that's the case.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Hello there, welcome to another episode of the Chuck Toddcast. My guest today is Ian Bremmer. He is principal of the Eurasia Group, really sort of one of the foreign policy and national security analysts that I consume the most. If you've followed me down in Meet the Press and the NBC days, you know that I've Used in quite a lot in my expert category when it comes to national security.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
I'm fascinated to go to a dollar store in about two months and see what inventory they have.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Und ich kann Ihnen sagen, dass ich weiß, dass es viele Leute rund um Donald Trump gibt, die nicht lieben, wie er diese Behandlung mit der Ukraine und Russland gestaltet hat. and are hoping that he starts to realize what many people around him do realize, which is Putin is not to be trusted. And he's never really going to be somebody you can trust.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Yeah. Well, that's where you use the word kleptocratic, you know, sort of. I've been saying we're moving towards a kleptocracy because I've always said that why Trump really likes tariffs is the control it puts him in. Right. He's basically the dealmaker for every industry and the dealmaker for every country. That is not the intent of the founders.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And this is we can I'm not going to we're not going to go down this road. But Congress, you know, is, you know, we're we're. If the American economy is destroyed, it's Congress's fault, right? They gave too much authority to the executive branch. But if that's indeed the case, then, I mean, what's a good outcome for the United States if we're not reshoring?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Right. And then use that money. You know, he's one wants to use that money to offset, you know, his tax cut and some other tax cuts, for example. Right. He could have used it as budgetary help. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Will at some point Donald Trump realize that Putin is disrespecting him? I think that's an open question. What about Xi? Right. He sees himself as sort of, you know, he's there's this odd respect he gives to Xi. Right. He loves to talk about what a great relationship he has with Xi. Ironically, it was Joe Biden that actually had the long term relationship when he was vice president.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
The rise of anti-American sentiment. I was at a meeting last week with some C-Suite folks who were getting a briefing on this, some early survey work, that there's clear rise in this. And these companies who do business overseas... but are basically associated as an American brand, are suddenly having to navigate this. What are you telling folks about this issue?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And do you just expect it to get worse all over the world?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Crazy. The nicest people on earth are booing the national anthem. I had a colleague of mine who always saw the sunny side of things. And I'm like, when he sees something negative, it means you've got a problem. If the Canadians are booing you, it's time for self-reflection.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
I've always thought the First Amendment applied to anybody in this country. Well, I mean, people, these are the smartest kids from all over the world that have worked their asses.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Small business owner in Cambodia, small business owner in Nigeria, where maybe they're just starting to export stuff to the United States and we've just bankrupted them.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
You know who gets hurt the most with Canadian tourism being frozen? State of Florida. This is a big, you know, I've been waiting for some Florida. I mean, Canadian tourism to Florida is huge, huge.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Can you address something here? One of the things that I think is the biggest misnomer of NAFTA, it is true that NAFTA did real damage as far as what happened to the industrial Midwest. They were hurt the most. But you know who benefited the most in this country? It was the Sunbelt. The Sun Belt in general, the Sun Belt specifically, I go to Alabama, South Carolina, Tennessee.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
We can talk about the state of Texas, state of Arizona. You know, this is one of those cases where it's it's not, you know, Donald Trump is so focused on trying to repair the damage in the northern states that everything he's doing is actually going to damage. His some of his base red states economically in the South. Am I misreading this or is this?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
She was essentially vice premier and they got to know each other walking, walking around the heartland in Iowa and things like that. But because Donald Trump likes to create one-on-one relationships, I think he believes, especially if somebody that he believes has equal amount of power or equal amount of wealth, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
I mean, you know, you take take the Mercedes and BMW factories that are all over the South. A lot of Japanese auto, you know, that's not going to. That's not going to be a good thing with all these tariffs. It's not like those become Americans.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Aber ich glaube, was ich hier komme, ist, dass jeder, du weißt, als er versucht, die industrielle mittwesterne Ökonomie zu reparieren, er schlägt gleichzeitig die Sonnenbelge und essentiell ökonomische Ökonomien.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
In this case, he sort of sees Putin and Xi more as equals than he does the Prime Minister of Japan or the Prime Minister of the UK or the President of France. Und also ist das eine neue Weltordnung oder ist das nur ein Moment, in dem wir sind, weil Donald Trump Präsident ist und das ist, wie er denkt?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Look, we've gone nearly 40 minutes on these tariffs, and I'm going to do a bit of a speed round with you to get you out of here in in under an hour. Just quickly, let's talk Iran and these direct talks. You seem pretty bullish that Trump's looking, you know, there's some negotiations he does where he doesn't want to get to yes. And there are some negotiations where he does want to get to yes.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
You're pretty bullish that you think this is a negotiation he wants to get to yes. And in fact, it will be a deal that Israel hates. Yeah, certainly dislikes, maybe hates. Will they try to undermine it the way they did undermine Barack Obama?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
But he treated him like a subordinate. He treated him like a subordinate, no doubt.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
So, so far, this looks pretty good. And we know Trump's tight with all the Gulf state leaders and they want him to cut a deal. And every one of them wants him to cut a deal. That feels right. Turkey. Turkey.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Look, I'll be honest, I've been just, as a citizen, ashamed that the United States has basically turned the other way, watching what Erdogan has done to his political opponents and what he's doing there. If you were a European citizen, you'd feel the same way, Chuck. Well, that's, I guess, good to hear, but also frustrating. The world has really not been... They've not been that ashamed of this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And I don't know why that is the case, other than there's exhaustion out there when it comes to the pro-democracy movement. I get that. But it sounds like Erdogan is going to get away with it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Warten wir wirklich, dass dies die Durchschnittslinie der republikanischen Politik nach Trump wird? Es ist schwer zu vorstellen, dass es das wird, weil es scheint, dass es weniger Republikaner gibt, die wirklich mit dieser Linie des Denkens an Bord sind. But we'll see. As for what the tariffs have done to sort of America's alliances, this is a long part of our conversation with Ian.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
I always say this with Turkey. Turkey, the elections themselves are not rigged. It's just everything else is.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Das ist das, was die Iraner tun.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Erdogan would not have won this election had the mayor been his president. That's crystal clear. And now we assume he narrowly wins this. My guess, look, when you try to suppress something like this, It doesn't always accrue to your benefit. I mean, there's got to be some risk he could lose here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
What should we expect out of South Korea? with their political turmoil right now. And in some ways is the global economic turmoil almost like a pretty good sobering moment for the South Korean electorate, as they've got to be keeping their eye on the economic ball.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
You know what it felt like? It felt like. Do you remember there was a there was a spoof movie? Way back when, with Richard Dreyfuss pretending to be a dictator. It was called Pandora or something like that. Moon over Peridot. It was a made-up country, but it was sort of like somebody trying to play a strong man and just sort of flopped. It was more comic than sad. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Brazil and France are both trying to do to their polarizing leaders on the right what many in the United States tried to do to Donald Trump and failed. And in many cases it's a spectacular failure because when you go for the king, you best not miss, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And in the United States they missed and we're now seeing, particularly with the grievance stuff and the targeting of all the different universities, everything we're seeing here, this is, retribution is a real thing here. What are the chances that, you know, whether it's Bolsonaro in Brazil or Marie Le Pen in France, that these sentences stick? And they get to move on?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Or will we see a Trump effect in both countries?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
They already put the previous president, who's the current president, in jail once, right? Yeah, yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And I think it's fascinating. He is not as pessimistic as some folks are, but he's also not Pollyannisch about what Trump is trying to do either. I will say this, and I think that it's something that Ian and I get into, but I can't emphasize this enough. And I've said this a few times. When it comes to why is Trump 2.0 so different from Trump 1.0?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Let me close with what some folks may know you for best, which is when you do your annual list of of risk assessments, assessments for the globe. You had Trump up there pretty high as it was. If you were not even 100 days in, would you redo your list or would you keep it?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Look, you named your company GZERO for a reason, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
It was not something that the CEO... Trump 1.0 turned out to be... I think the biggest mistake people make is viewing a Trump... policy or decision through the prism of the first term. Completely agree with you, Chuck. You cannot do that right now. You just cannot. Russia and Ukraine, is there a ceasefire this calendar year?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
No, Rubio's been critical of the Russians and everybody's been like, you know, it's obvious the Russians are the obstacle to peace. What Donald Trump wants, it's the Russians that have said no. The Ukrainians have gotten a yes 7,000 times.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And the biggest sort of it's it really starts at the beginning. There are three people that were around him who put together the presidential staff and cabinet the first time. Mike Pence, Reince Priebus and Jared Kushner, his son in law. None of those three people are there this time. This time the administration was put together.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Also gibt es etwas, was er verhindert, dass er auf behalf der Russen für einen Fehler verurteilt.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
I mean, this is where, Witkoff's not his own man here. Wittkopf, if he doesn't espouse what Trump wants, there'll be a different envoy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Well, I think it's because they know he speaks for Trump. I mean, in fairness. In that case... He is the Secretary of State, because Rubio doesn't always speak to Trump.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
All right. My clock says we made it just under an hour. Okay, sounds good. I cannot emphasize enough to folks, if you're at all interested in the geopolitical landscape, that GZERO Newsletter. Ian, I've blown smoke up your you-know-what before on this, but I just find it to be, it's better than, there are other quarterly smart foreign policy places out there that do good newsletters.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
You do the best one. Thank you, man. It's always great to see you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Well, I hope you enjoyed that tour of the globe. And there were a lot of things we didn't get to that we will get to again. I thought the most fascinating part of Ian's, I guess, prognostication is the likelihood that Donald Trump wants to cut a deal with the Iranians and how desperate the Iranians might be to cut a deal with Donald Trump. Not quite. Nixon goes to China.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
But I do think if this does happen and he could use he's he could use any sort of positive PR, it'll be interesting. I wonder if it will get them positive PR or if it will divide the right on this. We'll see. And if it becomes an issue in Israel. Netanyahu sabotaged essentially Obama's ability to cut a deal with the Iranians. Would he do the same for Trump? Just something to think about.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
by folks who weren't thinking about the party at large, but were thinking about Donald Trump first. And I do think the biggest mistake many of us have made, including the stock market, was assuming that Trump 1.0 would have influence over Trump 2.0. That what Trump 1.0 did on the issue of tariffs, for instance, will be similar to what he would do in Trump 2.0.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
But with that, before I go, let's dabble into the Ask Chuck bin and take a look at our questions. Ask Chuck. I gotta have the music. You're enjoying the music, don't lie. You know you like this music. So here's the first question. And it comes from Nicole Mealy. And she writes, you mentioned a few books you assigned to your class. I'd love if you could share the physical lists.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
I didn't pay as much attention to history as I should have when I had someone guiding me throughout my education. As I'm getting older and realizing the importance of history more and more, I'd love to have some recommendations to better equip myself and gain a better knowledge of how we got here. Appreciate your time and knowledge.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Well, let me give you a sense of this is the book list I was referring to at McKay Coppins. Obviously, you enjoyed the Coppins interview. And I noted that Coppins' book on Mitt Romney was one that I had assigned a class that I teach at USC. It's a terrific class called How Washington Works. That is my assignment for visiting students from USC who basically spend a semester in D.C.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
interning and getting a taste of Washington. And, you know, I'm there and I... My class is designed to sort of teach them how Washington works at the moment, because Washington works differently with every administration. So I'll give you the book list that they got to choose from for their midterm as a way of at least understanding how today's Washington works.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
So I signed, I gave him the choice of the following books. One called Madam Speaker, Susan Page's book on Nancy Pelosi. The second, The Price of Power, Michael Tackett's book about Mitch McConnell. Both, by the way, Pelosi and McConnell essentially cooperated with both authors. So I do think, I enjoyed both books. I think it gives you
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
ein Verständnis von zumindest dessen, wie sie die Macht ausgestattet haben. Und ich denke, was auch immer du von Pelosi oder McConnell denkst, beide von ihnen waren konsequent und beide von ihnen waren mächtige kongressielle Leiter, die wahrscheinlich Jahrzehnte dauern werden, um den nächsten McConnell und den nächsten Pelosi zu ersetzen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Er ist wahrscheinlich nicht in der Sitzung des Senats und des Hauses. Einfach etwas zu denken, wie die beiden Parteien sich verändert haben. The two books that I sort of see as a companion on that are what you are writing about there, which is the McKay Coppins book on Romney. Mitt Romney essentially kept a journal during his 2012 campaign and it really does a good job.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And then he kept this journal up throughout the Trump era while he was serving as a senator. And it does, he really, what Mitt Romney inadvertently does is help guide us from the changing Republican Party, what he saw on the campaign trail, what he realized the party was changing on him and maybe his type of republicanism wasn't really what the base wanted.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And he was trying to figure out how to sell it and all those things. And I just think Coppens did a terrific job. I mean, yes, it's in Mitt Romney's voice essentially, but it really helps, I think, narrate, if you will,
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
The change in the Republican Party from the Eisenhower-Romney run, essentially that one wing of the party went on to where the party is today with Trump, which in many ways, as I've told you before, is actually a throwback to the Republican Party pre-Eisenhower. And that evolution, I think this book captures it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And from stage left, Roy Teixeira has a great book called Where Have All the Democrats Gone? And in some ways, in the same way, Coppins helps helps the reader learn about how the party went from Romney to Trump and really went from becoming one thing to another. Roy Teixeira shows how the Democratic Party lost its working class voters, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And I think that the lesson that we ought to take away now as we near the 100-day mark is simply this. Trump 2.0 is its own unique presidency. In some ways, if you are trying to figure out what he's going to do next, the least helpful way to figure that out is to look through the prism of Trump 1.0, because that is not the case.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
How it happened and sort of it happened over a decade and a half. This isn't something that happens overnight. And I think Roy Teixeira does a good job of showing how it happened and showing Perhaps where the party is headed and where it could sort of change where it's headed.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And my guess is a lot of people who are thinking about running for president on the Democratic side have consumed this book. And that's why I think students ought to be consuming this book. And then to learn about how the influence that came in Washington works. The Mullins Brothers, my friend Brody Mullins and his brother, did a book called The Wolves of K Street.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Und es ist ein wirklich, es ist eigentlich, glauben Sie es oder nicht, es ist sehr grüppig. Sie machen einen wunderschönen Job. Es gibt einige fantastische Geschichten von Lobbyisten in den Jahren und sort of the over consumption, if you will, or over exuberance of some of them. But it gives you a good understanding of essentially. how we got to this influence game of today.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And that we are at the point now where it used to be the lobbying world was consumed with essentially citizen activists versus corporations. And now it's essentially corporations versus other corporations, right? They're all fighting over regulation that would hurt one business and help another. And somehow the citizens aren't even involved in this operation at all.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
But I do think... So those five books... And I and my students, I asked them to pick one and, you know, write me an analysis and a review of it. But if you're looking for five reads that I think can help you understand today's Washington and today's politics in America, those are the those are as good of a first five to read as you can get. So there you go.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And no, I do not get a commission on any of the books if you buy them from Amazon. But perhaps I'm making a mistake. And maybe if all of these books suddenly become overnight bestsellers for a day, I'll know the power that we have already developed here at the Toddcast with you, my incredible listeners. All right, my next question is from GW Joe in Nashville. I like this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
My GW fellow alums are going to refer to themselves with Raise High and with a little revolutionary love there. I appreciate it. And his question from GW Joe is this. Is there an argument to be made that we are now a competitive authoritarian regime? Are we close to Erdogans Turkey than we are to our own democracy circa 1970 or pick any decade of your choice? I think it's worth a discussion.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Congress has self-neutered itself. True. The executive is now ignoring laws. Vielen Dank. Well, look, we are we are I still think we're the cleanest, you know, sort of the I guess one way to put it, one of my favorite expressions. And I learned this during the Great Recession when we were all worried about the state of our economy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And I had an economist friend use the following expression when he said, well, we're the cleanest pair of dirty underwear in the hamper, meaning you may think our economic system is kind of messy, kind of broken. What we were doing with the housing market, credit default swaps, all that business, except everywhere else is worse to keep your money. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And that is frankly what Donald Trump is banking on with his tariff regime, which is that as bad as these tariffs are, as bad as unsettling as it all is, where else are you going to put your money? China? Rule of law? You really feel good about that? How about the EU? You think they're not going to want to tax your money? Where are you going to put your money?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
So that is something that he's counting on. As for your... I don't know if we're at Erdogans Turkey. I'm not that down yet. Erdogan is using the power of government to pick his political opponent. We haven't gotten to that step yet.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
We're probably somewhere early stages Orban and Hungary, right, where it is more about trying, because in this way, that's why Hungary is probably the better comparative for now, trying to, you know, this sort of Assault, you know, using the power of government to influence private institutions like universities.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
That is a little more Orban-esque and sort of, I think, that's why I don't, we're not at Erdogan yet. Now that said, I think about, I use Erdogan as an example a lot of where we can head. Because Erdogan still, it At this point, you've heard this in the interview with Ian, right? When I asked him this, which is, you know, Erdogan, the elections themselves are not rigged in Turkey.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
I do think you have a guy who does behave as if he isn't running again, despite Some of the rhetoric and some of the pearl clutching that's out there when it comes to him seeking a third term and not abiding by the Constitution and things like that. If you actually think about some of the moves he's made, they actually make no sense politically in the short term for him or the Republican Party.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
It's just everything else is. So the media is rigged. The cultural institutions are rigged. The ability of who gets on the ballot is rigged. Iran is that way. Iran, you know, the elections themselves aren't necessarily rigged. But who can get on the ballot? right, is rigged, right? So it is not a true democracy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Though once they decide who's up, they always claim to be a real democracy because they don't mess with their vote. And by the way, the guy who won this last time wasn't necessarily the first choice of the supreme leader. So there is, you know, it's like, you know, and it's, you know, We'll see if Erdogan survives this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
You know, he's he you know, he's tried to stop this guy before and he just lost elections in Istanbul. Right. His party has tried to push back on it. So but I do think your larger point that essentially the democracy has been weakened and I think it's been weakened. an der legislativen Ebene, richtig? Ich habe verschiedene Theorien darüber.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Ich denke, wir müssen die Größe des Hauses verdoppeln und das Haus muss seine Macht zurückbekommen, richtig? Artikel 1 der Verfassung ist die Legislaturperiode, sie handelt davon. Sie sind die Macht der Bürger. Sie sind diejenigen, die entscheiden, wie viel Aufmerksamkeit ein Präsident hat. Sie haben die Macht jetzt, diese Tarif-Emergenz-Aufmerksamkeit vom Präsidenten wegzunehmen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
We'll see if they do. I think that if we continue down this road, I don't think a Republican House will do this, but a Republican Senate with a Democratic House might. So I think that you've got to hang in there for two years before Congress decides to use its authority. But I think we now know that the only time Congress wants to use its authority is
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
is when it's controlled by a party that is not in charge of the presidency. The real problem is what happens when Congress and the presidency are the same party. That's when we've seen all of these horrible decisions by Congress to hand authority over to the executive branch.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
They always do it when, quote unquote, their side is in charge and they're thinking, well, this is what they want in the moment. And then they regret it the second the other party wins.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
So, you know, with this trade authority, you know, the reason why this trade authority was ever handed over to the executive branch is because Congress thought the president would never be less of a free trader than Congress collectively, which before Donald Trump, that was true. That's obviously not true anymore. So You know, our elections are honest. There is certainly an attempt.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
I think, you know, I go down. I just think that Trump believes in a more social... He believes in the same authorities that we have said socialist governments are trying to do, right? Socialist governments in general, particularly the ones...
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
in the global south want to have a bit more, want to use government authority, not just over the economy, but also over the culture and over some other things. And I think in that sense, you know, this is where I think Donald Trump is behaving more like a socialist. Which is sort of ironic, the very thing that the Marco Rubios of the world have fought their whole life against.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
But if he is truly believes. in creating this economic legacy and quote unquote, you know, making America great again by returning manufacturing to the United States and somehow hoping to turn back the clock on the entire globe. Obviously, I question whether that's even possible, that he's more in a Thelma and Louise mode.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
But, you know, Donald Trump doesn't believe in limited government. He really does believe in the strong arm of government. Look at how much he's using it. So and and I guess I would argue until I'd like to see. a debate framed that way and see how the public reacts and see how this goes. So again, you know, I think that there is, you know, we are not yet at Erdogan or Hungary today.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
But if you look at the early stages of what Orban did, you can see some of the similarities. And obviously, you know, I'm not saying this stuff can't slip away. I mean, I'll be honest, I'm surprised that there isn't more outcry of the lack of due process for the person that was mistakenly deported, the resident of Maryland who was mistakenly deported to El Salvador.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
But then again, in some ways, I think we're finding out that what truly will... turn Americans off of this style of governing by Donald Trump is when it impacts their pocketbook.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And so while due process and some of these things people do care about when they think it's being taken away from them, in many ways, this has been true of the American voter for decades, they don't always worry about it for somebody else. They worry about that stuff when it happens to them.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
That's why the economic standing here, I mean, I have a friend of mine who's really nervous, sort of reminds me of where you are about the democracy, thinks that I'm being a little too Pollyannisch.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And he's suddenly feeling good because he thinks, hey, if there's economic calamity, it means the voters are going to turn on Trumpism, which means we're not going to have to worry about this anti-democratic streak that we've seen rise up on the right. We'll see who's right on this one. Let's see how the midterms go. Let me put it in another way.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
If Donald Trump is able to use the power of the Justice Department or the FBI to essentially disqualify a potential Democratic candidate for president, then we can have a discussion about whether we're on the road to Turkey. Because that's what Erdogan has done. And I'm not going to sit here and say that that could never happen here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And obviously this president has decided to get very, very close to the Justice Department in ways that I think, you know, for all the criticism he said of what Biden did, if he claims Biden politicized the Justice Department, he is then doing what Biden did times a thousand. And as I've, as I always was brought up with, do two wrongs make a right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
This has been the biggest problem in American politics, is that too many people are conducting, are using power when they get it now to essentially... execute a wrong and rationalize it because they think the other side did the wrong first. That arguably is why we're in the position we're in right now in our political system. All right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
On that uplifting note, I'm going to leave the questions there for now. Don't worry. Keep them coming. There are a lot I would have done. But this week I got some great interviews. So I'm not going to have a full just ask Chuck type of interview. That's my tease for now. And with that, until we upload again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
He's driving off the cliff, regardless of the short-term political consequences. So we'll see. I think that it is every time the markets think they have found a guardrail on tariffs, He seems to want to go the other way. So I do think we're still going to remain in this uncertain world. And as long as there are uncertainty, all that's going to do is slow down the economy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
He is as wired as there is when it comes to, particularly when it comes to America's closest economic allies, Japan. Japan, Canada, the UK, basically the G7, right? In many ways, the G7 is America's closest allies, the key European countries plus Japan and Canada there. And he's, look, it's not just there that he's well sourced, he's well sourced a lot of key trade allies.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And all that's going to do is cause short term problems politically. But with that, a little bit of a tour of the world, starting with how has this approach to tariffs reordered America's alliances around the globe? What does it mean going forward? And here's something. Musik Musik Musik Musik All right. And joining me now is Ian Bremmer. He is the principal behind the Eurasia Group.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
He is somebody that if you've been following my work, you know that I count on Ian as one of the great sort of global experts, both in sort of. The national security space and the international business space is ear to the ground, particularly with G7 and G20 nations is as good as anybody's.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
He's pretty sourced up in some of the key Western powers around the world that matter a lot more and more these days with our politics. Let me timestamp this. It is Monday afternoon, April 14th. Because as we know in the Trump era, you just never know. But Ian, it's good to talk with you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
I appreciate that. New relaunched. It's, you know, everything old is new again, right? But let's look, I think the... There's no doubt that Donald Trump has done what he wanted to do, which is shake up the world economic order.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And I guess the question is, have we broken the economic order yet or has he just done significant damage to it that based on how things go over the next couple of years, it's repairable?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
Und warum ist das? Ich werde mich überlegen, warum das ist. Aber ich möchte dich, ich meine, ist es, weil... This country has elected someone like Donald Trump twice, so why shouldn't we assume the country won't go back and forth between maybe you have an internationalist and a protectionist, that this is the new normal in America.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And in order to have trust in America, it's probably going to take decades of consistency to convince some of these countries to trust us again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And I continue to make this point. I mean, Mike Pence and Reince Priebus were the guardrail. They built all the guardrails around Trump. And we look back and, you know, there was I don't think people realized how significant and important. It was that the two of them were in charge of personnel, both on national security and economic policy. Because it's completely different this time.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
And given what's going on right now, and basically the conversation that I have with him is trying to see, is there a um George H. W. Bush zu bezeichnen, gleich nach dem Fall der Berlin Wall. Damals war es die Erstellung einer neuen Weltordnung. Und das war eine spannende Zeit, um eine neue Weltordnung zu erschaffen. Wir haben eine neue Weltordnung erschaffen, weil die Iron Curtain fiel.
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
So if your goal is to de-risk from the United States. A lot of times it meant, you know, de-risking from China meant, frankly, getting closer to the United States, getting closer to India, getting closer to perhaps the EU. What is de-risking?
The Chuck ToddCast
Is Trump ceding America's power to Xi Jinping & China
If you're pulling away from the United States, is this now everybody's just simply retreating and you'll do a little bit of business with China, a little bit of business with the United States, just where it financially makes sense? Is that what you're describing? Or is China... So in the global south.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
So I in many ways, I think this Biden book is only going to not just undermine Biden, but I think make it toxic for anybody that worked for Biden. Because then it becomes, where were you? How did you participate in the coverup? Pete Buttigieg, this may mean something for you. You were a cabinet secretary. Are you gonna now tell us, yeah, I didn't have much interaction with him?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And it's sort of, it's a simple premise to me. It's like, how weak are the two brands of the major parties right now? Think about it this way. If Donald Trump said today, we're going to disband the Republican Party and replace it with the MAGA, with a new political party, the MAGA party, who's with me? I'm going to guess 70% of the elected Republicans would sign up for the new party.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Well, then why didn't you say something? I had a cabinet secretary tell me that. They had no interaction with him and wondered about that. I had that off the record. I've after Biden quit. I've since shared it with people. Still not going to share who the cabinet secretary was because that's not my I'm trying. You know, I believe in keeping your word as a journalist.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And it was an off the record as far as being told to me. And I think it's up to that person to decide whether to speak out or not. But I think it's a question anybody who worked directly for Biden. So Gina Raimondo, if she thinks about running for president, Pete Buttigieg, all of these cabinet secretaries are now going to have to answer for all of this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And I do wonder if it's going to make anybody that touches Biden persona non grata, not just anybody directly in the Biden. world as far as, you know, it could be the way, you know, anybody touching Carter was sort of exiled for decades in the Democratic Party in the 80s and 90s.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
It really wasn't until Obama that that sort of parts of Carter world were resurrected in a positive light inside the Democratic Party. That's some nearly, you know, nearly 30 years later. And that's probably the best Biden world can hope for, is that they need to – the generation that lived through this mess will have to go away before they maybe get a second chance at the historical record.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
A lot of it, though, is going to depend on what the Trump presidency looks like three years from now and what kind of impact it has. Because – Everybody who worked for Biden and Joe Biden himself, to me, is directly responsible for everything Trump does in the second term. Right. They they their behavior and their actions led us to this place. They're contributors to the place we are at.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
So they better hope it's a successful second term for Trump. because they will own a piece of that failure too.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And the recovery for America from its economic, what could be an economic disaster, I mean, obviously we're escaping short-term problems here by this pause with China, but let's be honest, already his management of the economy has cost a lot of people money, and it is still going to create inflation. So it is now, he's already done damage. The question is, can he mitigate the damage he's done?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
or is more coming. He's just delayed when that happens. But mark my words, if you're not happy with any part of the second term and you're angry, some of that anger belongs to the Bidens and some of that anger belongs to the people who had no guts to speak out when it mattered and waited till talking to an author of a book. Finally, there's the story of the DNC.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And this issue of David Hogg, who, of course, was an activist born out of the Parkland shooting in Florida. I'll be honest, it's very personal to myself. I have my own connections to somebody who was in in that school. When when when when it happened. So I have a lot of personal empathy for anybody that went through that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
You know, I think the way David Hogg has conducted his politics is hard to is hard to is hard to to see him as a member of the leadership of the DNC, considering what the role of the DNC is.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Now there's obviously people that are unhappy with him that as vice chair of the DNC, he got elected vice chair of DNC, that he now wants to work with a group to primary essentially democratic incumbents in very blue areas who he believes are stagnant, right? Who need generational change and all of this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And suddenly you would have a complete exodus from the official club known as the Republican Party. Similarly, if Pete Buttigieg, Andy Beshear, Gretchen Whitmer, AOC banded together and said, you know what? The Democratic brand is broken. It is a mess. It doesn't you know, it's not what it used to be.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
This has created an uproar that a member of the DNC leadership is talking about primarying elected Democrats. And I understand that criticism was like, wait a minute, you can work on the outside. You chose to work on the inside.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
When you choose to work on the inside, you're choosing to work with the Democrats that have been elected and help new Democrats get elected, not necessarily purge the party from the inside. So I have empathy for the criticism of Hawk. But now they're trying to create a. So apparently now they've they've come up with a.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Instead of forcing the situation about, okay, you've got to make a decision, David Hogg, are you going to work on the outside or work on the inside? They've come up with a convoluted, it feels like a Politburo decision. Well, we've got to figure out how to get rid of this person, but we don't want to make it look like it's politics. We want to make it look like it's a technicality.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
So in this case, there was a challenge there. They're supposed to be gender equity in the leadership of the DNC. Well, after when the DNC chair won and it turned out to be a man, not a woman, it should have triggered that one of the vice chair can't, you know, that there was going to be gender equity on the vice chair level. And there was not. So there's been a complaint filed.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
So now the DNC has decided they have to redo this vice chair race. So. All they've done is turn – and David Hogg has said, well, this is really about them being angry at me. They're just using this technicality to force a new vote. Malcolm Kenyatta, who was the other person elected vice chair, clearly doesn't like that he's been attached to the David Hogg controversy. He's upset about this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Let me just tell you something. I think that DNC looks ridiculous right now. Just – Effing ridiculous. It's behaving like a Politburo and not like an actual functioning political party in a democracy. A Politburo would come up with a convoluted technicality to purge somebody from the leadership because it's making other people unhappy rather than actually dealing with the issue straight up front.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
So what they've done is they're actually going to make a martyr of Hogg. Like I said, I'm not sitting here – I don't think what Hogg was doing was – I thought it was poor form. I thought it was in bad taste to be elected a member of the leadership and then work to sort of purge Democrats.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
But I also think the way this entire episode is being treated, how the chair is dealing with this, how it's turned into this backroom thing only makes the whole party look even less organized than we all thought they were.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
um clearly there's a leadership vacuum this has not been a good start for the new dnc chair ken martin i could tell you there's quite a few democrats i hear from who are wondering why the chair of the wisconsin party ben wickler who now is leaving there who's had a ton of success Why he was an elected chair and openly wondering, would he would he be allowed this mess to go on?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And I think for whatever reason, Ken Martin is not taking a strong hand on this feels like he's almost letting letting the letting insiders. get involved too much on this. Either way, it looks ridiculous. It's going to make a martyr out of David Hogg. And either he's elected again, which is talk about major with everybody knowing this, giant amounts of egg on their faces or they don't.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
We need a new left of center party in this country that is focused on preserving the democracy and expanding and thriving and updating it. We need a modern a modern version of this. So we're going to start a new party. And, you know, it's sort of like taking the Donald Trump NAFTA approach. Right. Which is. Can't stand NAFTA. So here's the new NAFTA.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And it looks like a bizarre party purge. And all you've done is is thrown fuel at the fire of the of the insurgent class wanting to get rid of the establishment. So it is
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
one of those massively unforced errors and leave it to the DNC to somehow get in its own way while they have this target rich environment in what has been a sort of incompetence on the Trump administration, whether it's in government cutting, managing the economy or all these very shady deals that seem to be taking place in the new crypto capital of the world, the in the Arabian Peninsula there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And yet it's the Democrats shooting at each other, just making a mockery, frankly, of their own party here. And just, they're going hog wild in all the wrong ways. All right, so coming up, I got Rob Sand. And here's why you need to care about this race.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
This is easily the best chance Democrats have of truly having a red state governor to stand next to Andy Beshear and Laura Kelly, Andy Beshear of Kentucky, Laura Kelly of Kansas. This will easily be their best shot at it. And I'll tell you this, if he wins, Iowa is going to be the first in the nation caucuses. They will get their place back.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
If Sand proves that they can win in this environment, and it will be a better environment for him to run in than he ran in 22. If he wins that race, it will put Iowa back in first in the nation, which will be really good news. If you're Pete Buttigieg, although, as I pointed out, I do think his Biden baggage is going to get heavier and heavier as he goes about.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
But take a listen to Rob Sand because this is a guy who's sort of you'll hear it kind of reluctant Democrat. And, you know, previous episode, I had Jasmine Crockett, who who's she's not a reluctant Democrat, but she's got a point of view of how the party should be messaging now. I think you'll hear a different point of view from Rob Sand. So be curious what you think.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Well, joining me now is somebody who is a new candidate for office, at least a top statewide office. It is Rob Sand. He's been the two-term democratically elected state auditor of Iowa, and he's now announced that he's running for governor. And to timestamp this, I'm interviewing him about four hours after he unveiled his public campaign for governor. So, Rob, you've been
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
arguably looking to this moment for a few years now. How does it feel now that you jumped in the water?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
I got rid of NAFTA because we don't call it NAFTA anymore. But he kept NAFTA. He just renamed it. Right. That is that is arguably how badly the two brands are feeling these days and how easily they could be rebranded into a new party. And the fact is, when I when I give you those two potential options,
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Do you believe it was a direct partisan attack on your office, meaning you had had a lot of success running, you know, doing public corruption. Yeah. And because you're a Democrat and the legislature is Republican, how much did that factor into the defunding of your of your office?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Right. Well, I would imagine. I mean, again, public corruption is always one of those things that there's usually pieces of both parties that are bipartisan in favor of strengthening public corruption, offices that target public corruption, and then those that believe –
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
for a variety of reasons, some may be nefarious and some may be intellectually honest, that, oh, it gets in the way of business, right? It gets in the way of regulation or it gets in the way of government service. So I buy that. But let me ask you this. I think your job being auditor to me would both be interesting and also though sometimes a negative place to come from.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And here's where I'm curious, where- If you the auditor's job is to find, you know, to find ways fraud and abuse. Right. Essentially. Right. And so if you don't find it, does it mean everything is going well or you didn't do a good enough job looking for it? Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Like, I feel like it's a never like I don't feel like you could ever feel satisfied that you're doing the job, you know, that you've you've found everything because. Yeah. I think the public is probably like me, a little bit cynical, assuming, well, there's always a little bit of public corruption. The question is, are you finding it all?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Did you think about not running as a Democrat, but running as an independent?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
outcomes of how fragile the two major parties really are, the only thing that keeps them afloat is the duopoly they have on ballot access in the 50 states. If they didn't have this duopoly of ballot access, one or both of these parties would have probably disappeared at least a couple of decades ago.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
I mean, look, I take your point here. And yet I would just sort of warn you and other people. I bet you the Tories didn't think that they were ever going to get knocked out from their top two status in political parties in the UK. And guess what they just saw happen to them.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And the Democratic brand is quite weak, particularly in the agricultural Midwest, even at a time when it's not as if the Republican brand is doing great. It's just, you know, they've succeeded by not being the Democratic Party brand. You being an auditor, I would argue it's better to be an independent than to be a member of either political party. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
To feel like you could really function in that. But again, that's why I ask that question.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
But because of the vehicle that they are for battle access, that actually is connected to my guest today, Rob Sand, the newest candidate for governor in the state of Iowa. He's basically the Democrats' great hope for winning statewide in an actual red state. And I'll get more into Rob Sand in a minute. He's currently a statewide elect, the only statewide elected Democrat in the state of Iowa.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
That seems rational and logical, which will be mean. So it could never succeed, right? Never succeed. You don't have the duopoly. Is it going to allow for it to happen? So describe your relationship with the Democratic Party. You've been a Democrat your whole life. But is it you know, if you win, is it a victory for the Democratic Party or is it a victory for independence in your mind in Iowa?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Do you still feel that way?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
i mean i look i feel that political parties because i'm a character voter i really am a character and a problem solver voter so i and i and i'm lucky enough to live in a state in virginia where i you it's no party registration you get to pick which primary you vote in you you know you you pick for that cycle but you get to pick whichever one you want it's a little more a little more choice so i certainly as a journalist like that too because you can't pigeonhole me by looking at my voting record oh he's always voting democrat or always voting republican
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
But but I like that just as a voter. And I assume more voters like that. But it does sound like you're a you're a reluctant partisan.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Yeah. Somebody that may be a contributor to the eventual Republican nominee. And I saw that Congress.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
So let's talk about, you're running because you think the direction of Iowa has been going in the wrong direction. So let's talk about that. From the outside, the biggest change that I've noticed that Governor Reynolds did had to do with school funding. And it's certainly when you're on the ground in Iowa,
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
when you get past the sort of the red versus blue, the national conversation, and you ask what's going on in Iowa, that's usually the first issue I hear about. Is that still the first issue you hear about?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
He's been the state auditor for two years, and Democrats have been waiting for him, essentially, to finally take the next step, whether it was for a Senate seat or a gubernatorial seat. And you will hear why he's a Democrat, and it's simply because there is no other alternative. If being an independent were a viable alternative, it sounds like he would be there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Private schools using taxpayer dollars are not going to be scrutinized at all. What are we doing here?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
I want to dig into this because to me, the biggest challenge for the school choice advocates is rural America. You know, I'd love – if you live in rural parts of this country, whether it's in Iowa, Florida, Texas, these are three states that have been very aggressive about this. It's not like it's easy to start up another school.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And either you're going to have some questionably accredited people trying to do startup schools in areas that they've never done it before and they're going to be using taxpayer dollars to experiment and it could fall on its face. That's something we found out in Florida. If you had a good administrator, maybe the school went well.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
But if you didn't, all of a sudden money disappeared and parents were wondering where's all these promised teachers. But I've noticed, particularly in rural parts of Texas and Florida, even among very conservative voters, they're very nervous about this because they're like, where's the choice?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
You're really basically saying, I either homeschool my kids and maybe you're going to give me some money to do that, or I maybe get into a pod with some other like-minded parents. But that is actually, why can't we just make the school in my neighborhood better?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in the 90s, and this is when you were going to school there, Iowa, Massachusetts, they were in the top five all the time as far as public school. I mean, the Iowa public school system was something that was the envy of others in the Midwest, was it not?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And it's, for me, a reminder of how fragile I think both parties are these days. It is it is more appealing to some Democrats to run as an independent, take the new the newest candidate for governor in the state of Florida, Jason Pizzo. do realize he was the Democratic leader in the state Senate, in fact, just a couple of weeks ago.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Because they've just – I don't – I mean, pulling – again, I understand the frustration with a specific local school that parents can have, right? And this doesn't feel like solving a problem. This just feels like we know you don't like it, so here – Go, let's create competition. But not everything, look, we can't create a competitive US mail service, okay? A service is a service.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
What you do is you improve the service.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
So that's you see what we did there. So I hope you go over there and subscribe to it. In fact, it's a it's something you've heard me dabble in before, but it's a more thorough analysis of how fragile the two major parties are in this moment. I think both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, you know, as as divided as America is between red and blue. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Rob, you know what's common around here? And it's common everywhere, but this, I could just tell you from experiences, you know, I have some parents who have a child that maybe needs some extra help, special needs, some, you know, in different variations. Private schools can say, no, we don't have the services to help your kid. You shouldn't try this place.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
So then, of course, your choice is actually smaller.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
than it was because maybe there's only one private school that has decided to invest in in helping kids with this same sort of you know who has a different learning plan than than kids over here and guess what happened it turned out he was better off staying in arlington public schools and his kid got some services because the public school had to provide the services and it was actually really good services
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
No, I mean, it's what happens whenever you increase money into the system, the beneficiary gets to, it becomes inflationary. They get to raise their prices and they will raise their prices. It's like that. All right, look, we're making a pretty good argument against the school choice, but we're not, I wanna hear you make your, tell me how you can, how can we get, because I do think,
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
There's a lot of frustration that here we are. Basically, it's over 100 years since we started our public school infrastructure in this country, let alone in the state of Iowa or everywhere else. And it really hasn't changed. Right. Like, I think this is why there's parental frustration here. I don't want to the parents wanting something different is a real issue.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Now, you and I are saying, hey, what you think is a fix isn't gonna work the way you think it's gonna work. So what's your plan to improve public schools and more importantly, to restore confidence in the public school system with these parents?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
So here he is, technically a leader of the Florida Democratic Party, deciding to abandon the party. Now, some of that may be personal. Some of that may have to do with personality clashes with the current head of the Florida Democratic Party. There's a little bit of finger pointing because if he doesn't get his way, that's why he left the party. But the fact that he
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
It does seem as if this has become such a partisan issue that that Republicans feel like they have to be anti public school, even if they want their local. I mean, we've turned it into almost a litmus test on the right. So make your case to a conservative that they should want to spend more time investing in the public school system rather than in a private school carve out.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Look, I went to a public high school in Miami, Florida. That was in 19 in the late 1980s. It was a third, a third, a third, third Latino, third African-American, third white. It was pretty segregated inside the school. I'm not going to sit here and say it wasn't. You'd have friend groups, but there were plenty of ways that it wasn't segregated.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And in fact, you ended up with relationships because of a student activity. Maybe it was in sports, maybe it was in music, whatever it is. And and it look, it does give you a better understanding of the world we live in rather than some fantasy, you know, isolated bubble. No, it that's a that's a that's a good argument. Let me ask you this on Governor Reynolds.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
What are some policies that you're going to keep if you're elected governor? What has she done right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Hello there. Welcome to another episode of the Chuck Todd cast, whether you're watching on YouTube, listening on Spotify, Apple or wherever else you might listen. I appreciate you being there. And oh, by the way, I now have a free weekly sub stack. It's got a lead. item and column in it. Every Tuesday, it's going to drop. Tuesday's the one day we don't drop the podcast.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
that he did, he has some resources to do it. And I've told you, I think there's definitely Republican fatigue in the state of Florida, a lot of DeSantis fatigue in the state of Florida. I don't know if the Democratic Party brand is strong enough to take advantage of it, but I do know if there's a strong independent candidate, It could.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Right. No, it's good. Go back to Governor Reynolds. What's she done? Oh, yeah, yeah. School phone, cell phone ban, anything else that policies you'd like to keep that she's been doing?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
So you came of age politically during arguably the most bipartisan era in the history of Iowa, right? It was one R and one D for senators, literally two and two, you know, be it two to two in the congressional delegation, three to two when it was five, you know, going back and forth.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
You had, you know, what was it, 12 years of 16 years of Republican governors, followed by 12 years of Democratic governors. Right. And it was a very even now. Right. There's not a clean it wasn't a clean Republican sweep. But Iowa has shifted or it feels like it shifted. Has it shifted or is this a is this a red mirage? Is this a Trump phenomenon that will look like an outlier 10 years from now?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
It's fascinating to me that the potential leading Democrat in Florida decided to run as an independent, this Jason Pizzo, and the leading independent candidate, a former Republican congressman and lobbyist named David Jolly, decided to become a Democrat and run for governor that way.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
No, it's I completely agree that they have more in common than they don't, that that is what they're that bond of the voter was looking for an outsider. Shake up the system. Don't keep the system running as it's been.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
So does that mean you're going to, do you think it would behoove the Democratic Party if Iowa were first in the nation on their side of the aisle again?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Sure, but make the case to the DNC here. I can. I know the case I'd make of why Iowa should be first in the nation. Folks who listen to me know my father grew up in eastern Iowa, Waterloo. I've got More family buried in Edgewood, Iowa than I do alive in the state of Iowa. So I'm an eastern Iowa guy. I know the area well, and I think Iowans are good at doing this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
But make the case that you have to make to the DNC to do this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
They ask tough questions too. The New Hampshire voters good at this too. I've always said the two of you together are good at this, but anyway, go, go for it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
No, look, I actually think they're – rejecting Iowa's first-in-the-nation status is also sending a message to a whole group of voters that they don't want them to be Democrats. And I think that is – Here, you know, what they subtly this is the message that I think there's not too subtle, not at all. And I mean, look, Eastern Iowa is the great example. This is as Democratic.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
So it'll be really interesting to see if you're trying to fix the Democratic party brand, is being a former Republican turned Democrat the way to go? as a way to sort of moderate-ize it or central centrism, infuse a little centrism in it and sort of de-leftify the brand in Florida. Leftify, de-leftify, did I invent a word there? Or is it being a former Democrat running as an independent?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
It used to, you know, you look, I don't have to tell you this. The state was basically the east side was Democrat. The west side was Republican. And literally Des Moines in the middle was the swing area still is the swing area. But Donald Trump racked up all sorts of support. along the Mississippi River and in Bay where you grew up and you've seen it firsthand.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Is it as much of what did what did the MAGA movement do in eastern Iowa or is it what the Democratic Party didn't do in eastern Iowa?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
You know, the last time you and I were face-to-face, I think it was in Decorah, and I was doing a piece about what happened to the Democrats in Eastern Iowa. And you know, the one Democrat that these folks kept bringing up was Pete Buttigieg. They were bringing up they were like Hillary Clinton never came in 16. I'd hear that all the time. She never came.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
She'd fly to Des Moines, do a few events within driving range of Des Moines and then leave again. And I heard similar complaints in 2020 by Biden and some of these others. But Pete was the one doing it the old fashioned way. And he was showing up in these towns and then, oh, look who ended up overperforming in the caucuses. I'm shocked that campaigning worked, you know?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Well, look, that's usually how party runs end in a state where there becomes where you're so entrenched, you're so used to winning that you think you can bully, you know, you think you can keep it up. That's usually the beginning of an unravel. Let me get you out of here. I want you to do a shorthand version of the lottery scam because you wrote a book.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And in some ways we're getting, we're gonna see both experiments take place there on that front. In fact, I'm fascinated to watch what's going on in some of these Senate races in 2026. You've got John Cornyn, the incumbent Republican senator from Texas who's being primaried by the state attorney general, Ken Paxton. Paxton is very MAGA, just like Donald Trump, escaped an impeachment attempt.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
You wrote a true crime book, and I think it's pretty good. It really reminds me of the McDonald's Monopoly scam. Because it was a similar discovery. And for those that remember that Netflix special about the McDonald's thing, this had to do with, was it Powerball and the Mega? Because Des Moines is headquarters for a couple of these multi-state lotteries. Hot Lotto.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
So I'm guessing you didn't even think it was as corrupt as you ended up finding out. Give me the elevator, I guess, the long elevator ride version of the story.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Just accidentally, you know.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And we found out how often did they win? I mean, so they and what were they doing? Were they being careful, like not trying to win the whole thing, winning small? Like because, you know, sometimes the best way to rip somebody off is not to try to get the big score, but like you get 10 medium sized scores.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Before I let you go, what's been harder on the Iowa farmer, the tariff uncertainty or the AID contracts going away?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
He was impeached, but not convicted, narrowly. Remember, Texas is a pretty Republican state, so quite a few Republicans voted to impeach him in the state house, and quite a few Republicans voted to convict him in the state senate, just not enough. So you do have a pretty divided Republican Party. And it's a fascinating problem that the national Republicans have with their Texas primary.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
This is going to be one of those rare occasions where there's full bipartisan support against these tariffs. And I have seen Chuck Grassley. He came out very quickly trying to, you know, because he's the only one. He's the only one. I am curious. Do you do you is and that's why I was going to ask you, has the state of Iowa filed onto that lawsuit against the tariffs or not?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And I would be shocked if they do, because our attorney general. But if you were sitting there, if you were working with Tom Miller again, would you would you be pushing him in that office?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Yeah. It's hard to see how they're going to work. I know this is not the 1920s. And by the way, they didn't really work in the 1920s either. Rob said it's going to be a fascinating campaign. You're going to be, You know, there's a lot more riding on your on your campaign than maybe you may realize, which is, you know, belief in whether I was a swing state again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Belief of if you win, I bet you first in the nation status comes with you. I know that's not why you're running for governor, but I just have a feeling that that sort of the perception of the Midwest is a swing territory. The perception of Iowa, all of those things probably on your shoulders, whether you like it or not. And I don't know if you appreciate that or not. I'm just going to do my job.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Well, look, it's going to be an interesting race.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And there's going to be probably a pretty big primary on the other side.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
You're betting on that this is going to be a change, a change environment, no matter who comes out. nominee?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
All right. Well, Rob, I'll be watching closely, as you know, and hopefully I'll get you back here again. All right. Thanks, John. Well, I have a feeling you should pin that interview with Rob Sand. There'll be interesting things in there. We may revisit it when the when 2026 comes. But, you know, you could argue how Rob Sand goes. So goes the future of the Democratic Party as a national party.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
They need to recover in places like Iowa if they're going to be a viable national party.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Let's do a little Ask Chuck. Ask Chuck. First question comes from Peter, and he writes this. I listened to Jasmine Crockett interview where you discuss the Obama election. I was working in Texas one one day. Many of my colleagues came back after lunch, all very joyful and happy. And one colleague told me that they had registered as Democrats to vote for Obama.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Reason being, Rush Limbaugh told people to do that as no way USA would vote for a black man and they could somehow get Hillary to the Democratic to be the Democratic choice, which in turn would mess up the Democrats. I wasn't a U.S. citizen, so I didn't know what the effect of this Limbaugh idea was. So my question was, was there a study made on the Limbaugh effect? Best regards, Peter.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
I remember this. It was it was Operation Chaos. I think Limbaugh called it. He was trying to encourage Republicans or independents. not necessarily to re-register, but where they could vote in a Democratic primary to vote for Hillary to extend. His theory was the longer the primary process, the messier it was, the better to keep the Democrats all tied up.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And this is actually a problem they're starting to percolate throughout the Senate. As more people debate, is the Senate in play in 2026 for Democrats? The map's terrible for Democrats, but Republican infighting could actually put more seats in play for them. Just and we've seen it's not as if this movie hasn't played before in the theaters. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
The Republicans, McCain was largely locked up the nomination a bit earlier than Obama did. I believe there was an academic study or two and it didn't really, there isn't many places where that seemed to have an impact. And I think whenever you get people trying to do that kind of voting, trying to organize sort of, you know, vote in the other primary for somebody to mess things up.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
You know, I think the informed voter might do it. You know, my old man was a registered Democrat in the state of Florida at a time where if you wanted to participate in most elections, the only primaries that were competitive were Democratic primaries. But he was a Republican voter. But he was a registered Democrat.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
A lot of Southern Democrats were in this vote where they were registered as Democrats, but almost exclusively voted for Republican in general elections. So I remember in 84 distinctly, and not only that, in the Democratic primary in Florida back then in the 80s, you voted. There was a beauty contest.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
quote unquote, where you picked the candidate that you wanted in the primary, but then you had to actually pick the specific delegates for said candidate to represent at the national convention. So my father was one of those. He was petrified in 84. I'll never forget this. He was petrified that Gary Hart would be the nominee because he thought Gary Hart actually could beat Ronald Reagan in 84.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
He didn't think Mondale could, and he didn't think Jackson could. So he was trying to support Jackson. So he ends up voting Jackson in the primary and the delegates, it was less about voting for Jesse Jackson and more about trying to deny, trying to improve Jackson's chances to weaken Hart. And there certainly is plenty of evidence that the long primary campaign hurt Walter Mondale in 84.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
But I think in hindsight, the long primary campaigns For Obama in 08 and for Trump in 16 didn't weaken the eventual nominees. They actually strengthened them. And I think one of the things that hurt Joe Biden in 2020 was the was cutting off the campaign so quickly. I wonder if the Democratic Party would have been better off as far as field. But I'll give you a perfect example. in Obama 08.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Obama had that thing wrapped up, I would argue. We knew after Super Tuesday, he was directionally gonna be the nominee. He had to collapse. And then of course, after he did his Philadelphia speech, race speech, he put it away because there was just never going to be enough delegates, the delegate path, the way the Democrats distributed delegates. But Hillary kept marching on just in case, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Just in case there was some revelation that would come out and destroy his candidacy and she'd be there to pick up the pieces. So deep into May, right? They went all the way to June. Deep into May, we had a big primary night, Indiana, North Carolina. This was the night that Tim Russert famously said, we now know who the Democratic nominee is going to be. It's Barack Obama. And he declared the race.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Closest anybody came on TV to declaring the race, although we had kind of been hinting at this. It was always funny to me that him saying it became such a gut punch to the Clinton campaign. They got really angry about this, believing this was now. But the fact is, North Carolina and Indiana, why am I singling those two states out?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Well, those were the two surprise states that Barack Obama ended up carrying in 2008. Does he carry those states in a general election without actually having to run a competent primary campaign in Indiana and North Carolina in May of that election year?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
In 2020, Democrats overperformed in Senate races thanks to bad Republican nominees. In 2022, Democrats overperformed in Senate races thanks to bad nominees. In 2024, Democrats overperformed in Senate races thanks to what? Say it with me, bad nominees on the Republican side of the aisle. So here we go again. And so if you're the National Republican Party,
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
So my point is, is that by having to organize in more states for longer during that process in a way, if Rush Limbaugh thought he was helping the Republican Party, extending the primary only made Barack Obama's organization better and stronger in more states. So...
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
I actually believe the more contested a campaign is towards the end, arguably it has in the 21st century, it has actually helped that party in the general election. All right. Next question comes from Steve in Vernon Hills, Illinois. And he writes, you're double the size of the House idea may have merit, but where would one physically put them all? How would it work?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
The seating in the House chamber would look like economy seats on airplanes. And wouldn't that be great, right? Shouldn't they all have to be stuffed next to each other? It's the people's house, right? Look, you're not, this is always, I don't want office space to be the reason why this idea doesn't happen. But I do think that there is, look, we're due for a new house office building.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
I think that the first woman Speaker of the House probably ought to have a building named for her. We have one for Joe Cannon. There probably ought to be one for Nancy Pelosi. And I'm not sure you strip off a name and put on a name. So I think we're due for one office space right now. Some argue is tight, but I actually would double the size of the House, but not double the size of the staff.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
So that you would have, so I'd have one more office building, but essentially you would narrow it down. I'd like to see members of the house have their bigger offices in their district. And that's where a large majority of their staff ought to reside. More of the staff ought to be in the district than in Washington.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
That you really, your Washington staff ought to be literally the chief of staff, the legislative director, your communications director. And some and maybe maybe a few other helpers. And that's it, that the large chunk of your work, if it's constituent services, should actually be taking place in the district. So that's to me, I would sort of we ought to reimagine what office space is like.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And it really should be about office space in the district, not necessarily office space in Washington. And as for where do you see them in the large chamber? But, you know. It's it was, you know, they they've added seats to that chamber before since we've been we expanded the house for 120 years.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
So there's no reason why you can't come up with with different ways to continue to expand the house seating chart and things like that. Yeah. You know, I think you could do it without making us feel like we're all sitting in Southwest seats. But I certainly think the bigger question is where do they have their offices? And this is where I would flip the script here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Districts should be where a lion's share of the staff and offices are. And literally, it almost should feel like a cubicle when you're coming to Washington. That's to me what a citizen legislature for a representative democracy ought to behave. All right, last question for this episode. Dom from Easton, PA.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
I believe that's the home of one Larry Holmes, the most underappreciated all-time heavyweight champion of the world. Let me go. I've been thinking a lot about the issues facing American democracy. Wouldn't it be smart for a group or party like Andrew Yang's Forward Party to become dedicated to this one cause?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Similar to how the Forward Party endorses candidates that are registered Republicans or Democrats, this new American Forward Party can support candidates and officials on both sides and independents who decide to support legislation that would end gerrymandering, overturn Citizens United, or vote to expand the U.S. House. Is there an appetite for this?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Well, you just described much of the agenda of the Forward Party. And it's funny you bring up the Forward Party. I'm actually going to have the chair of the Forward Party on this podcast pretty soon, hopefully before the end of this month of May. And we will ask her about that. I've been doing some deeper dives on what they're up to.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
and your job is to prevent the Democrats from winning the state of Texas, the best possible way to do that is to ensure that John Cornyn is the Republican nominee. But what if John Cornyn is simply not popular enough inside the magified version of the Republican Party in the state of Texas to win that nomination? Can Paxton,
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
You know, in theory, no labels was trying to get to this place that you're describing where they could create sort of a caucus or coalition of the willing, if you will, of left and right on different issues. I think they're you know, I've always thought if no labels made a mistake, it was assuming there was an actual centrist ideology. And I think that that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
What there really is, is a pragmatic ideology, meaning people that are willing to compromise to make incremental progress versus people that want want the issue and it's their way or the highway. Right. And that's to me is the difference between a partisan legislator and a and a politician. Right. A politician figures out how to do the best they can with what with what is offered. And so. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
But I look, it's been the theme of this podcast at the top. I think there's a vacuum out there for a whole bunch of Americans who feel like they're not represented very well by the Democrats or the Republicans. And there are pieces of ideas that they like in both parties.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
We're polarized sort of between two sides. The two actual political parties that represent red and blue have never been weaker. Right. And essentially more. And they've been dominated by cults of personality over the last 20 years. When it just when it looks like they need refurbishing, a cult of personality rises up to sort of paper over their problems.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
So it's, you know, the idea that you can have one third party do anything is I think is I get why that that seems like, you know, there's no there's no perfect compromise there. But I do think there's something. There is I think there's a vacuum out there and there's going to be an appetite for this. And again, look, some of it is going to be by necessity.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Do we have a John Cornyn decide he has to run as an independent? That's an opportunity for the forward party. Right. Ditto with Tillis or ditto with this Jason Pizzo in Florida. So some of it will have to do with what kind of will we see a. a better quality of candidate running as an independent in some of these spots or running as a non-traditional member of either party.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And I think that's, you know, some of it is, you know, You have an idealistic – you have an ideal in your head of what that candidate would look like. Is there anybody that will actually resemble that ideal? And we'll see. I think it's a little early, but I know I'm hopeful that there's some attempts to shake up the system because it's clear the two-party duopoly is not good for the democracy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
All right. With that, I ought to lament the lottery. I know I closed the last podcast with begging you guys for good vibes. So thanks for nothing. I have teased. By the way, has somebody paid attention to what's going to happen to the three teams in the state of Texas? Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, those three NBA teams, they're all on the rise.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
They're all in a position of strength all of a sudden. And it's a state that prefers football and baseball over basketball. It's, you know, we'll see if it's a, if this sort of changes, but this is a state that loves its football and loves its baseball. And basketball has always been fine.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And there's certainly, you know, been, Baylor's had a good program, UT's had a good program, don't get me wrong. But, and Houston, obviously, has been one of the powers in college basketball off and on for years. But it has never been at the core, and yet the NBA, the three franchises there, have never all three been on this strong a footing at the same time.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Anyway, that's going to be fascinating to watch. build on that front as for my my poor Wizards I mean it was such a Wizards ending not only do they not get it they didn't even get a top four pick didn't even get a top two pick end up in the sixth spot you know who knows you never know who you draft in six you know Jokic was drafted in the second round.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
if he's a Republican nominee, makes that seat a lot more vulnerable to the Democrats winning. So if you're the national Republicans, do you convince John Cornyn to pull a Lisa Murkowski and just simply bolt the primary, run as an independent, and try to win a three-way race in Texas? I know on one hand you can think, well, that's crazy. On the other hand,
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Giannis was down in the deep in the lottery and, you know, grew three inches after he was drafted. So, you know, you can always hope. But boy, go look at the NBA draft history and see how many players in the top three become all-stars versus how many players in the rest of the first round become all-stars. So it's a bummer not to get one of those first three picks.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
All right, that's enough with my sports update. Again, like and subscribe everywhere we are, YouTube, Apple, Spotify, you name it. And oh, by the way, we now have a weekly sub stack that you can subscribe to as well. So go check it out there. And with that, until we upload again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
John Cornyn, the only shot he may have to win this seat is if he leaves the Republican Party, promises that he will caucus with the Republicans, like Lisa Murkowski. She knew she couldn't win a Republican primary in Alaska, but she also knew she was more popular with independents and with Democrats and with enough Republicans that she could easily win a general. And she did it as a write-in.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And her last name is Murkowski. I still always find that. It's like, why is she untouchable? Why can't Trump get rid of her? Because- She's so politically popular in Alaska that with a Murkowski with a three syllable last name that isn't quite easy to spell. She won as a write in. OK, that's your mic drop. M-U-R-K-O-W-S-K-I.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
When you if your last name was Smith and you ran as a write in, not that impressive. Murkowski, another story. So which brings me back to Texas.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
I think the real dilemma there, either they either because I don't think Cornyn's ever going to win this primary and what it's going to take for him to win this primary is probably going to divide the Republican Party so much that it may it may become an untenable situation in either direction. A three-way race, suddenly, who knows, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
I don't think it works the way everybody thinks it works, that two Republicans on the ballot automatically will help the Democrat there. I don't think that's the case. I think Ken Paxton would do more to get the Democrats a chance at Texas than a three-way race would. But that's the type of conversation that I think Republicans...
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
should be having with themselves in Washington, of course, it all matters is who's making these decisions. If this is Trump's political team, well, they'd rather have Trumpy people. But if this is, say, John Thune's political team and Tim Scott, who's the current RSC chair, well, they may have a different point of view. But I do find what's happening in Texas now to be something that
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
It could lead to, you know, again, if Cornyn's goal is to win the Senate seat, it may be his best path to win the Senate seats to leave the party, run as an independent and promise to caucus with the Republicans. You can't just not.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
I do think that, you know, trying to keep your you know, if you don't you don't go promise to go there, then then you would eliminate potential Republicans that might vote for you. But I think that would likely be, and especially Colin Allred's, the Democratic nominee, Colin Allred ran a race that basically said, hey, I'm a John Cornyn Democrat. All he did was praise John Cornyn.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Think Barack Obama for the Democrats or Donald Trump for the Republicans. We are watching around the world a movement where there's, you know, we've seen this, there's clearly a massive political realignment taking place globally.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
So I think he'd have a harder time being able to differentiate himself from Cornyn. And Cornyn may actually benefit from having a third candidate in the race that's done nothing but praise him. So it is it is, I think, something worth watching there is I've you know, I have a few other campaign nuggets I want to share.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
North Carolina, you know, the Republican Party is dealing with too many crowded primaries with the Senate races. We talked about Texas. There's North Carolina, where now Laura Trump is once again thinking about. wanting to be in the Senate. Maybe she primaries Tom Tillis. Tom Tillis is somebody who's who's seen as quite vulnerable to the MAGA wing of the Republican Party.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
He's another one where is this Pat McCrory's experience not being able to come even close to beating Ted Budd? He was the non MAGA Republican. Ted Budd was the Trump endorsed candidate. And we saw what happened there. If Tillis, you know, is it in the best interest of the Republican Party in the Senate if they're trying to keep that seat to have Tom Tillis run as an independent? He's another one.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
Again, the ballot access laws are not easy in North Carolina. Ditto with Texas to run as a third party or as an independent. Don't get me wrong. But in both of these cases, and I'd throw in Bill Cassidy in Louisiana, where the governor is working with the president to try to find a Republican primary challenger to Bill Cassidy, Julia Letlow, a congresswoman, is the latest idea being floated.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
would Cassidy be better off running as an independent? So it is, again, my bigger theme being, you have two-party brands here that are broken. You have two-party brands that I think are very distrusted by the public. You have two-party brands that...
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
It where it may be easier running away from that party brand, even if you agree with 70 percent of what that party brand stands for and running as an independent. If you're a Democrat in Florida, if you're a Democrat in Iowa, if you're Republican now, a non-MAGA Republican in Texas or a non-MAGA Republican in North Carolina. So I definitely think it's something to watch for there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
A couple other news topics from the last few days that I want to talk about here. One is, of course, this Biden book. The excerpts are coming out. The book I'm going to have Jake Tapper on pretty soon, who's co-author with Alex Thompson of this book that is about the Biden cover-up. Was it a cover-up? Were there people inside the West Wing?
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And what I saw take place in the UK that I brought up a while ago about what happened to the Tories there, the fact that they, at least in these last elections, were not treated like one of the two major parties. If you did not, if you wanted to vote against labor, you didn't vote for the Tories. You voted for the Reform Party UK, the Nigel Farage party, if you will.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
not telling the truth or being disingenuous when people when people like myself would inquire about why Biden couldn't do this event or that event or was afraid of doing a Super Bowl interview, all of those things, you know, that we all saw with our own eyes that he clearly there was something foot. But of course, you know, you you're only as good as is as your actual sourcing there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And it's pretty clear a bunch of aides did not. did their best to prevent people from knowing any truths. Right. Keeping cabinet secretaries away from him, keeping Biden away. But but there's something As much as I think it's terrible that the Bidens are once again trying to come out and defend themselves, putting themselves before the party, they ought to take a page from George W. Bush.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
After Obama won, after it was clear the Bush brand was done inside the Republican Party, he didn't go out there to try to fight for his legacy. He went and took a painting. And in many ways, by not trying to be out there engaging every day in his legacy, and thanks to Donald Trump, his legacy is oddly improved in the minds of many voters, certainly his personal legacy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
There's still a lot of people question whether the greatest – And, you know, since Vietnam was the Iraq war. And I don't think anybody that that isn't going to change. And what certainly his character and is in his sort of how he, you know, how he treated the institution of the presidency is something that has only grown with time. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
and not trying to make people uncomfortable by coming back out to defend himself and to say, no, my unpopularity is wrong, et cetera, et cetera. So I do think that the Bidens ought to take a, but I get human nature wanting to defend yourself.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
But there's something about these books where you're gonna have all these people make anonymous claims that, well, they were hiding it or they were doing this or they were doing that. Well, then shame on you. You own this. If you believe the country is at risk of slipping in the democracy, shame on you and all of these anonymous aides.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
And frankly, all the people that work for him that are now they tell us this is one of those. I think it's Brian Curtis over at The Ringer is is dubs these stories in the sports world. Right. Every time somebody gets traded, you're like something. And then like right after the person gets traded, then all of a sudden the beat writer dies.
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
for said team writes the big tell-all story about how the relationship between player X and the ownership totally broke down. And he calls it a now they tell us. And this is a now they tell us, right? So now all these Biden aides who didn't say a word for two and a half years,
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
uh are suddenly now uh speaking anonymously uh to folks it's it is or or early aids coming out where were you at the time when many of us were pointing out he seems to be too old to be running for president i know i did it quite a bit publicly yet people like david ignatius and you know what many of those same aides did who are now talking to these authors they would
The Chuck ToddCast
Have Democrats Found Their Red State SAVIOR To Beat Republicans? w/ Rob Sand
They would push back privately and publicly with me and others and say, no, no, no, it's fine. No, no, no. My interactions with them are fine. This is just exaggeration. You're buying into a right wing narrative. So, you know, these people have talked about both sides of their mouth.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
But many of them looked at Joe Biden's age and thought, well, against a younger candidate, this would be a problem. But against the crazy of Donald Trump, it's somewhat neutralized. And so it was certainly a comparative analysis that I think many of these folks made. And I think none of the other part was you had a whole bunch of skepticism about whether Kamala Harris could be a good candidate.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And you had a whole bunch of skepticism that if you didn't believe she could be a good candidate, did you have a plan? sie in der Primärwahl zu zerstören, ohne eine massive Intraparty-Fight innerhalb der Demokratischen Partei zu schaffen, die die Partei noch weiter zurücksetzen könnte.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Und so ist es, schau, es ist eine, es ist eine von diesen Situationen, die wir niemals wissen werden, die Antwort darauf. Du weißt, mein Ansatz, ich denke, im Endeffekt, ich gehe zurück, das war eine Verletzung, die zehn Jahre im Nachhinein war.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
When Barack Obama put his arm around Hillary Clinton to be the nominee in 2016, he essentially cleaned, he essentially benched an entire generation of potential Democratic leaders, the Gen X generation of Democratic leaders, including people like Kamala Harris, Amy Klobuchar, Cory Booker, Michael Bennett. I could go on and on.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Essentially everybody that eventually ran for president in 2020, but many of whom would have run in 2016, had Obama not done that. And so when you go back, sort of the, you know, that's the fork, that's a fork, to me that was the real fork in the road moment, right, where we never would have had Clinton or Biden. But when, you know, and I think this goes back to something that I've often
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And frankly, I think Kasich is somebody who is desperate to, I think, revive a sense of local community again. He's always kind of... Ja, genau. was made famous by George W. Bush. To me, the avatar to that is John Kasich. And before him would have been a guy named Jack Kemp. In the 80s, Jack Kemp was considered a conservative with a heart.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
wondered if now Barack Obama understands this, but he won in 2008 because Democrats didn't want more of the same. They didn't want the establishment wing of the party in charge, i.e. the Clintons. They wanted something new, and that was Barack Obama. And for the most part, they were satisfied. This wing of the party was very satisfied.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And I would argue that you saw a Democratic Party start to grow in a different way. You started to have different kind of leaders and they were sort of following the North Star of Barack Obama. And then 2016 comes along and he essentially doesn't listen to those Democratic primary voters who already rejected her once. And he went with her.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And it sort of put, and I think whether it's a slice of independent voters, whether it's those Sanders voters like Joe Rogan, who liked Sanders, probably liked Obama and also liked Trump, right? We're looking for people that were willing to break the elites, break the establishment. Obama was trying to break the establishment in a kinder, gentler way.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Donald Trump came with a sledgehammer for the establishment. Hillary Clinton is the establishment, was the establishment. Joe Biden is the establishment, was the establishment.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And so, you know, I'm not sure any sort of tinkering around the edges come 2024 was going to change any of that, that ultimately neither Biden nor Clinton should have been at the top of any ticket 2016, 2020 or 2024, that it really should have been the next generation already. But Joe Biden's not going to be making that argument.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Joe Biden's got to defend his presidency and he's going to probably continue to defend his presidency. It is intriguing to me that he chose to go to the BBC first, because I think and my own reporting confirms this. Once you once Russia invaded Ukraine. Basically, the one issue that Joe Biden was focused on more than any other was NATO and was containing Russia.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Everything else was secondary for him in this presidency, whether it's his domestic agenda, whether it was the border, that every day what he was really working on, what really animated him in the morning, what really kept him up at night was the situation between Russia and Ukraine. And I think he believes his job was to save NATO, expand NATO, which he did.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And I think he believes it's the best part of his legacy. Well, I tend to agree, unless Donald Trump destroys NATO, and then ultimately he's going to share in that responsibility, right? Because his failed political leadership, you know, I've put it this way. If Joe Biden had been a better leader, I don't know if the American voters were to turn back to Donald Trump.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And maybe that's an unfair way of putting it, but ultimately He made the case that America had to move on from Donald Trump. And America decided to turn back to Donald Trump because they didn't like the governance of Joe Biden. That's ultimately on him. And we're never going to know about the various alternatives. But again, I go back.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I'm not sure nitpicking when Joe Biden gets out of the race really matters at the end of the day. I think what mattered is the fact that Joe Biden was still in the thick of all of this. ist wahrscheinlich die größere Situation da. Okay, ich denke, ich habe genug gemacht hier. Ich habe genug Schaden gemacht mit diesem Öffnen, was passiert.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Amerikanische Verabschiedung führt indirekt zu ungeheuerlichen und potenziell hostilen Situationen, die enden in Metastasisierung und machen Dinge einen Haken viel schlimmer. So sehe ich die aktuelle Situation in Indien und Pakistan. Und ich bin sicher, We're going to be hearing more from Joe Biden as he does his little defend his legacy tour over the next week or two.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And I'll be curious if he has new arguments or better arguments as his tour continues. So let me sneak in a quick break. And when we come back, John Kasich.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Well, joining me now, if you've been listening to my podcast over a few years, you know it's somebody who I always enjoy having a conversation with. And we are in each other's mutual admiration societies. It's the former governor of Ohio, former congressman, former presidential candidate, and forever friend here, John Kasich. John, good to see you. Thank you. Chuck, it's good to be with you again.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Look, you're ostensibly on here because you've written a new book. And it's very, for me, I think what's interesting, and I think it's kind of a bookend in some ways, because you, I remember your first, the first book I remember that you wrote, I know it may not be the first book you wrote, was doing the, sort of the ordinary people doing extraordinary things.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And that was general, in this sense, you're focused on faith communities. Am I shorthanding it right?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Und schau, ich sage immer, wenn du ein Buch wie dieses schreibst, ist es für mich reflektierend, wie du Politik funktionieren willst, richtig? Und das ist für mich immer so, wie du es funktionieren willst. Warum denkst du, dass wir einen Schwung hatten, dass wir alle in der Lage hatten, Politik zu beobachten? Ich lache immer, dass die Zivilisation Politik inventiert hat.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And the point being, look, he was an advocate for smaller government, an advocate, frankly, for more international engagement, an advocate for business. aber auch ein Anbieter für die Erleichterung von Leuten und als ehemaliger Athlet. Er konnte die Rennstrecke ausbrechen.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
In order to resolve disputes without violence, right? That's why at some point we humans decided we can't keep fighting to decide who lives here and who lives there and where we draw our border. Maybe we should negotiate. And suddenly politics was born. Why do you think we don't know how to do this as well as we used to?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Oh, it's my favorite conundrum. Yeah, we're we're we're more tribal than ever. And yet the parties have less influence than ever.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
But you had to prove your bona fides. Exactly. You wanted to be a good member of the party. Yeah, yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
It was sort of your typical bro hug. It was a handshake hug. I might have done that with you. Hey, good to see you. It's been a while.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
First of all, Christie's not even the first governor named Crist. that went through this. Charlie, Chris got kicked out of the Republican Party, arguably, for hugging Obama in 2009.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Er ist einer dieser Leute, von denen ich immer einen Buch schreiben wollte, mit dem Titel »Ich kann nicht glauben, dass sie nie Präsident geworden sind«. Jack Kemp und Bill Bradley sind meine A und B. Ich denke, es sind Jack Kemp, Bill Bradley und John Glenn. Ich schaue auf diese vier Leute und man könnte Bob Dolan da hinsetzen. You know, they they all ran. Don't get me wrong.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
So I'm going to go, let's unpack the party thing a minute. You know, I remember one of the arguments that a few politicians, including Mitch McConnell, made against McCain-Feingold in the time that it happened. And I was, I sort of, I actually thought it was a genuine critique of McCain-Feingold and not just a partisan critique.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And McConnell worried that McCain-Feingold, while it had a, its attempt was to take big money out of the political parties. He argued it was going to weaken the political parties. And it turned out he was right. Because you don't get rid of money. Money just finds a way. Money always moves. And every time government has tried to legislate campaign money, it has never made it less.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
It has just made it harder to track. Easier to abuse and harder to track. And yet if I said we should repeal McCain-Feingold, it would sound like, oh, you just want more money in politics. No, I think they should, because it was misguided. At least it was transparent. At least we saw where it went.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Let me throw something at you. Will you accept the premise that, you know, I would say where I show the greatest faith... I have a lot of faith in the idea of democracy, and therefore it is what I would die to fight for. And I've wondered that. What are you willing to... Do you accept the idea that the idea of democracy is a form of belief and faith?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I know you're talking about a different faith.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I always say this. I trust the voters eventually. Yeah. You know, I just think if everybody has all the right information, they're going to make the right decision. Sometimes they just don't have enough information.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
They all wanted to become president. They all just ran in the wrong year in various ways. And, you know, they got on national tickets in the wrong time. And, you know, but for a different political circumstance, they would have become president, certainly had the resume or the unique American background, astronaut, athlete, you know, etc.,
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I want to dig into something you said in my class.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Well, I'll tell you this. If you wrote this book 20 years ago, the assumption would be, and you're doing it for political purposes, I would argue, you writing this book now, nobody's going to assume that you're doing this for some sort of political gain.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Exactly right. But you accept that, that that's the way someone might look at this, if you had written it.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Es ist lustig, wenn ich darüber nachdenke, was nach Trump kommen wird. Es ist eine Frage, die ich bekomme. Ich bin sicher, es ist eine Frage, die du bekommst. Und eines der Dinge, auf die ich aufstehe, und ich habe nie versucht, ich habe gesagt, naja, ich nehme ein paar Namen, aber anstatt von Namen versuche ich, die Leute auf das folgende zu konzentrieren.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Wir haben eine ungewöhnliche Fähigkeit in Amerika, zu gravitateieren. Wenn wir einen neuen Präsidenten wählen, wählen wir meistens einen Präsidenten, der eine Charakterstärke hat, die der vorherigen Präsidenten nicht hatte. and that it bothered us, right? I go back, George H.W. Bush to Bill Clinton. Well, H.W. Bush had a hard time connecting with the average person, feel your pain, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Bill Clinton was all that, right? George W. Bush, I'm going to restore honor and integrity, right? That was the whole character thing, personal integrity. Bush to Obama, it was sort of black and white versus nuance. Und er war Mr. Grey. Obama war der Grey und all diese Sachen. Auch Obama zu Trump.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Kann man mehr gegenüber Obama, einem dünnen, dünnen, schwarzen Mann, als dem großen Mann aus New York City? Aber wir wollten einen Verkäufer. Und in manchen Fällen, ich habe immer gedacht, dass Obama's beste Asset auch sein schlechtestes Asset als Politiker war, was war. He didn't always need the... He wasn't as needy as the average politician.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And I think sometimes that made him a bit dismissive of those on Capitol Hill who were maybe a little needier. And you needed to, hey... Go bring them, invite them to the Oval Office and things like that. But, you know, Trump was almost all showmen. Biden obviously was the opposite. So so then I sit there and think, what what will that mean in 28?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Are we going to be looking for an opposite personality, an opposite personality? We are looking for somebody with a lot more empathy, you know. And that's what I don't know. But I know it will be something Trump is missing. Maybe it's empathy. Maybe it's on temperament. Maybe it's on, you know.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And do you think any member of one of the two major parties is going to be able to credibly campaign as a uniter?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I think Kasich is one of these people that sort of has a little bit of all of that sort of... Oh, what would my friends in France call it? Je ne sais quoi. Meaning, it's just this... And he just... He feeds off of community, and I mean that as a compliment on that front.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
So if you were advising somebody like that was thinking about it in 28, you'd be telling them, look, think about where this puck is going to be. Don't think about where the puck is at the moment.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I don't know. Yeah, it's funny. Because we don't... We don't know in a year from now with whether being MAGA is good or bad in a Republican primary.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Even though the assumption, I'm obsessed with the three, there's three senators who are getting primaried. that are all Republican, Tillis in North Carolina, Cornyn in Texas, and Cassidy in Louisiana, none of them, you would say, are MAGA. All three were sort of very much sort of what you would have said pre-Donald Trump as conventional conservative Republicans.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And I don't mean that as anything, just sort of like, you know, and will it be an asset not to be MAGA by this time one year from now? Right. If they win. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
You just never know. And there's always the human element. And the human element. Your state's going to be hosting a fascinating couple of exercises. I think Ramaswami is not going to walk into this governor's mansion. He's going to have to earn it.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
So I think you're going to enjoy this conversation that we have, really about figuring out how we restore civics in America in a way that's a little less partisan and a little more productive. So I hope you enjoy that conversation with him. And he's got plenty to say about the current situation in politics. But I do think you'll enjoy this conversation.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Well, right now they're voting Trump. I don't know if they're voting Republican.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I think that's the real question, right? Yes, I agree with that. And that's, you know, you're right, on 28 I sit there and it's like, if you make me pick names, I say, well, obviously there's Vance, I think there's Donald Trump Jr. I mean, if he wants to run, he's got the brand name. Und dann wirst du, glaube ich, einen Mann wie Glenn Youngkin haben, der der große Normie Hope ist, glaube ich.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Es könnte Cruz sein. Du wirst einige haben, die Maga-abhängig sind, ohne Maga. Und Youngkin ist wahrscheinlich ein bisschen mehr Persönlichkeit als Brian Kempf. But it's sort of those guys are both sort of feel like there may be there. I don't know. Right. I don't I don't know if if MAGA adjacent. If you can't get that vote out, maybe it's it. It doesn't matter. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Well, that ought to be the reason to do it. Yeah. So if you were running in 28, what do you think the biggest problem? No, I don't mean it.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
What's the biggest problem that you think somebody should use a presidential... Put it this way, I just interviewed Jay Inslee and you and Inslee are going to... I admired Inslees candidacy because he decided, I don't know whether he thought he was going to win the nomination or not. And I'm not going to put...
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Aber er hat gesagt, weißt du was, ich werde meine Kandidatur nutzen, um auf ein Thema zu konzentrieren. Und er hat entschieden, das Klima zu machen.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Und wir können, wir können, du weißt, wir können diskutieren, ob, aber ich vermisse jemanden, der sagt, schau, ich werde meine Kandidatur nutzen, um zu versuchen, die Aufmerksamkeit zu bringen, zu einem Thema, auf das ich wirklich denke, dass die Leute darauf konzentrieren sollten.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Also, wenn du eine Kandidatur so nutzen könntest und du dachtest, dass es das tun könnte, du warst ein, du warst ein Budgetleiter, es ist schwer, Leute über das Budget zu freuen, richtig? Du hast es manchmal so hart herausgefunden. How would you galvanize that?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
But before we get to it, I want to pop in on a couple of other issues. And to me, there's one giant issue that is getting a little bit of attention, but probably deserves a lot more. And it's the current security crisis in the Southeast Asia between India and Pakistan. And
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
That's a pretty good campaign message right there. I think you're spot on about both AI and healthcare. Let me do Medicaid here a minute, because you did. I feel like we have stumbled into Medicaid as universal catastrophic healthcare. Meaning, if worst case scenario happens in your life, there's always Medicaid.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
But that is not... And maybe it wasn't initial... And I do think, look, it is a godsend to have Medicaid if you've got an aging parent and they run out of money. And, you know, to know that there's a system out there that will help you take care of your parent. You don't have to figure out how to do it in your house. You can go find a Medicaid bed, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
In a nursing facility or recovery facility, things like that. But, you know... It's funny, I remember Lamar Alexander, when he was governor of Tennessee, said once, he said, boy, I would gladly trade Medicaid back to the federal government for all the education dollars. You guys can run healthcare. I don't want to run healthcare anymore because it's just hard to do it by the states.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Für mich ist diese aktuelle Situation ein schrecklicher Erinnerung darauf, was passiert, wenn die amerikanische Führung von der Welt zurückkehrt. Ich werde nicht hier sitzen und sagen, Amerika ist der Grund für diese Situation. Das ist sie nicht. Okay, das ist eine langfristige regionale Wettbewerb zwischen Indien und Pakistan. Es geht zurück.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Do you agree with that assessment?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I was still wanting to finish up healthcare.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
But I mean, come on. I'll tell you what's perverse about the healthcare industry.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
No, in fact, I think we've been intertwining it, but let's talk about the healthcare industry a second. Let me give you this conundrum, since you're a free marketeer. for-profit hospitals are less profitable than non-profit hospitals.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Wait, say that again. For-profit, the for-profit hospital systems are less profitable than the non-profit hospital systems. That's probably true. It is true.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Right, your Medicare reimbursement rate is higher. But talk about how perverse the system is when that is a fact. Und du sitzt hier, und der Grund, warum ich vielleicht mehr davon wissend bin als andere Nicht-Healthcare-Reporter, ist, dass einer der Gründe, warum Universitäten gerade so flüssig mit Geld sind, ist, wenn sie ihr eigenes Krankenhaussystem runten. Sie sind alle Non-Profit.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
University of Miami takes their U Miami Health money and uses it for the football program. University of Texas. Well, you're in favor of that, Chuck. MD Anderson. But University of Texas, MD Anderson helps provide that. And in fact, the universities that don't own their own hospitals now wish they did because of how the system works. So the question is, this is a case where
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Wir sprechen über eine aktuelle Partition, die mit Israel und den Palästinens zu tun hat. Es gibt noch eine Partition, die That has also been the cause of strife around in that region. And it's in India and Pakistan. It was obviously the most just a quick refresher here. Not sure how much you're following the story.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
You just see, there was a time the for-profit hospitals made more money and the non-profits were struggling. And then government sort of just reversed how they did this. And then everybody realized they could make money out of the tax code.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I know, we're probably making, everybody's, the eyes are glazing. But this is to me at the heart of the problem.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
This is Doge the right way.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
This is why I've always gravitated towards you in general, which is, I'm not looking for somebody with the right plans. As my elected official, I'm looking for somebody who knows how to bring the right people in the room to solve the problem. Period. And too many presidential candidates think they have to have the solution. This is my climate solution. This is my healthcare solution.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And it's like, I don't want plans. I want a plan of action. How am I going to do it? I always thought Bill McRaven. You know, I had this fantasy about Bill McRaven coming in to be the pastor for patriotism for America, right? But to come in and as a 30-year military guy, him saying, look, I haven't been in public policy for 30 years. I've been serving the country.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
But I can tell you what, I know immigration is a problem and I'm going to get everybody in the room and we're not leaving until we have a reasonable asylum system, a reasonable HB1, etc., etc., I'd like more candidates to make the process part of the pitch.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
But in late April, April 22nd, it was a terrorist attack in the Indian administered part of Kashmir. Twenty six civilians, mostly Hindu tourists. So there's a religious element here. The Hindus and the Muslims were killed. Es ist ehrlich gesagt eine ähnliche Sache, die die US-Gewerkschaft macht. Pakistan. Pakistan. Pakistan.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Jesse Ventura is my favorite example. All the right instincts. He got eaten alive by that legislature. He did.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Well, look, it's funny you brought up Bashir earlier. Bashir is somebody I'm very intrigued by because here's a guy who's had to govern with a Republican legislature and he could just be angry at them all the time or he tries to figure out how they can get stuff done. And ultimately... I always describe the middle of the country as more like the 30-yard lines.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I think the middle is a lot larger than we treat it. That doesn't mean they don't vote the same way. But I think when I think middle of the road, meaning you're not dogma. You're willing to move. All right, I'll accept that type of mindset versus the extremes. Let's go back to your book, because I hear you. I know you want to talk about the book. Okay.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Where are you... You know, there's this... Where... How do you integrate faith institutions into government response without making the separation of church and state people nervous?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I will tell you, I still have vision of the Ohio State fan I was sitting next to when you guys stole that national title from us. When it appeared that Miami had won, the guy literally turned to me and he goes, man, I really enjoyed watching the game with you. I said, save, this is great. Then of course, oh look, there's a flag. And then lo and behold, Terry Porter.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
By the way, I still know the guy's name. His name was Terry Porter. He was a Big 12 official. And I'm still ticked off for throwing the flag.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
So we know I there's part of me that thinks our obsession with national politics is because we've untethered people locally.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
No, we've got to bring the community back. And frankly, it can't be about, you know, this isn't about making journalism for journalists. It's more of journalism and service to your community, which is you're just helping people live their lives.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
You're helping people, you know, maybe it's reporting on the public school system, but like how do you navigate the public school system if you have an autistic kid? And every system is slightly different. And what are the services? Local journalism, when it was really good, did that really well. It was service journalism. National journalism is civics journalism. It is slightly different.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And I think when you get rid of one... then everybody looks at journalism and thinks, oh, you guys just, you have no idea about my life. You're not reporting on the things that matter to me. And they're right. Because that wasn't the national deal. Local should be this service-oriented... Und ich denke, das ist der, du weißt,
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I have a Richard Gingrich, he's a guy who's been doing a lot of the news initiatives outside of Google and stuff, and he's a guy I've been talking to a lot. He actually thinks the worst thing to happen to journalism was the Woodward and Bernstein effect, where you had a whole generation of journalists who just wanted to
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Go find the big story, go for go fight and and and get fame and fortune that way. When actually 90 percent of journalism really is community service journalism. And that that actually is what people that's why they relied on it locally.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
You have an independent intelligence agency that sometimes feels like it operates on its own. The military, literally a military industrial complex that in many ways is the stabilizer of the country. Civilian leadership that is either in the pocket of the military or finds themselves in the crosshairs of the military. But it is not a stable, there is an uneven check and balance that goes on there.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I think he enjoys, he might just simply, curious, I would say, the best journalists are those that, I would say, the best, the reason why I love it is, A, I'm curious and I enjoy knowing something before somebody else does. And I know that seems like a that's that's you know, that's and the best journalists sort of are just obsessed with getting information. They're curious.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
They want to know more. And if that's your motivation, you're usually going to get some pretty good journalism.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
It's well, and it gets back to the it gets back to the community. It's sort of, you know, I do worry, you know, if you look at, and it's interesting you brought up the Gilded Age, because there's a part of me that believes we're kind of, right, not quite repeating, but it rhymes, right? The robber barons and the broligarks, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
The transactional nature of politics back then was super transactional. It's becoming super transactional now. And frankly, I worry that we're worshipping... Eigentlich ist alles um deines zu bekommen. Nun, jeder muss seinen bekommen.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Und es hat... Ich weiß nicht, ob es... Du möchtest es nicht sagen. Wird es eine existenzielle Bedrohung nehmen oder eine große Depression für die Menschen, um die Gemeinschaft wieder zu betrachten?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Es war überall. And they went all around the early 20th century.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Ich wollte nur fragen, was du von Pope Francis sagst. Ich meine, er ist wirklich der, er war, er hat sich gegen diese, du konntest es sehen, er sieht, wo die Kultur geht und er versucht hat, in seiner eigenen Art und Weise die Kirche auf Empathie-Issuen zu modernisieren, aber in manchen Fällen zurück zu den Grundlagen, dass man im Service deiner Gemeinschaft ist.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
So it has always been a source of concern because both India and Pakistan have nukes. but because of the unsteadiness of the governance of Pakistan. And frankly, there's plenty of evidence that much of the nuclear intelligence that Iran and North Korea has acquired has come through essentially leaks out of Pakistan and a Pakistani scientist and things like this. So it's always been
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
The only people that liked him were the people. The people liked him. I think he's going to be... I don't know. We'll see. Recency bias is everything. I'm always trying to be careful of this. But I feel like 100 years from now, He might be the one pope people remember from the 21st century.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
He was doing what you and I talk about all the time, which, look, he had a North Star, and he was going to bring everybody as closer to it, but he knew that you have to actually go slowly if you want to bring more people along. If you go too fast, you only bring certain people with you. This is the problem, what Trump is facing. I always say tactically,
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I'm not a fan of the tariffs for a variety of reasons. I'm guessing you're not either. But there was, if you really believed in this, there was a way to do this. Oh, absolutely, yes. And this was not the way to do it. No, no. Or you could have done this with six months advance notice.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
put it out there, given business time to prepare, given countries time to potentially do deals, and instead you go too fast and you don't bring everybody with you. And this is just a classic, but this shows you, you know, Donald Trump, here he is a two-term president now, he's shockingly inexperienced at governing still. He just doesn't know how to bring people together and he never has.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
He won't allow those people around. You know, he doesn't allow. You have to be a person comfortable hearing negative information. And I don't know if he is.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Well, it's funny, you're right, and yet, how many times have... Have people thought that, you know, that the mistake some presidents do is by the time you get to your second initiative, you're not popular enough to get it passed. Right. That's the tyranny. Right. That's why you get the advice that says, hey, try to do everything at once to see how much you can get done.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Yeah, because everything is a time. I want to go to something you hinted at and. I'm going to go ahead and... Gina Raimondo said something. I was at a dinner with her about six months ago. Maybe it was a year ago. And she said something that triggered and it was like one of those, oh my God, how come we're not having this conversation? And she goes, you know...
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Our public, we haven't rethought the public school, public education paradigm since we started it. Here was this amazing idea that when we first implemented, everybody around the world was like, man, we got to do what they're doing. Right. And other countries adopted our way. Boy, they're making educate. They're going to educate. They're going to institute this by the government.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And they're really onto something. And yet the design of our public school system is the exact same as it was when we first did it. And yet we're four times the population. I think we have more states since we last rethought this that we haven't rethought. what the public education system should look like, forget in the 21st century, in the last half of the 20th century.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And instead we're doing what we've done with healthcare, which is, well, let's try a charter school system. Let's try magnet schools. Let's try this. But we haven't rethought the fundamental aspect of, you know, how it should be run, how it should be funded. What you said, do we even rethink grades?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
An area of concern for a variety of reasons, but loose nukes being the biggest one. But obviously there is a when you're when you have your own citizens attack and killed, most countries are going to feel the need to respond. So, on May 6, India responded. It called it Operation Sindor. They made airstrikes. They claimed they never actually crossed into the airspace of Pakistan.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
This isn't an age thing that should be done by, by, you know, if somebody becomes an expert at, at something. So what if it takes until they're 40 to become that expert versus 25 to become that expert, right? Um, Warum ist es so schwierig, zu sagen, es ist eine großartige Idee, wir müssen sie updaten und wir müssen eine große Konversation haben?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And it's all over, right? You can't just blame teachers unions on this one. It's not just teachers unions, right? It's the whole system.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
But the teacher needs to almost be an expert. A coach. Yeah, more like a coach. Interesting.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
But is that self-selecting? I mean, I'm with you on the KIPP schools.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
How do you know it's not self-selecting and that they just need good students?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And I believe those kids are there because they're any parent that wants their kid to get a good education, figures out how to navigate a system, whether they have money or not.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Well, I don't know. I get my back up about blaming the media for this, because I blame the Democratic Party. The media only can report what they can report. But they didn't report what they saw. Well, I think some did, but there were others. Well, the problem is you have too many pundits pretending they're journalists.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I know. Who's telling him that? You know, my wife says this all the time. She goes, look, a better leader would have made the country not want to return to Trump. And it's a tough thing to say, but she's not wrong. And, you know, she's always put it that way. She goes, you know, look, I and she didn't want to. She doesn't like being a Biden critic. But she said that.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And I thought, you know, that's a very fair point. A better leader would have made the country not want to go back.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
But they hit nine targets that they believe were areas in Pakistan where many of these terrorist organizations were either being protected or lived. Pakistan claims it shot down some Indian jets. Look, I think...
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
That's so telling. I mean, it's so telling. You're right. I mean, that's political malpractice. My feelings aren't hurt. It's just stupid. But I'll be honest, that wasn't the presidency I thought we were voting for. I actually thought we were voting for a guy who was going to restore the idea that, hey... This is how this is how governance should work. Everybody's got a seat at the table. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And it didn't it didn't work that way. And you're right. I don't know how I go. There's a part of me that wonders, had he been 15 years younger? Maybe he's maybe it's a different guy. Maybe. I don't know. Or maybe. Es gibt einen anderen Teil von mir, der sagt, der Kerl hat versucht, entweder für den Präsidenten zu gehen, jedes vier Jahre konnte er es. Und er hat endlich den Brustring bekommen.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I get home and I... By the way, it's not as if you're a shrinking violet.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Oh, I'll tell you, it is so funny. There's quite a few people who make eulogies. It always bothers me when I go to any memorial service and the eulogy is about the person giving the eulogy and not about the person.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
It's possible we are close to a crisis averted here because India sort of made it clear that they did not want to escalate, that their response was targeted and was designed to only go after the terrorists themselves. The Pakistani response was, hey, we shot down some Indian fighter jets. which is something that is certainly pretty embarrassing for India.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
He had guts. Well, I mean, you know, look, I think... Heaven Help Us is the name of the book. Sell, sell, sell. We've done it pretty well. I think we're selling you, Joe. We're selling you.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Entweder das, oder sie denken, wow, diese beiden alten Jungs, diese mittelalterlichen weißen Jungs, sind besessen mit ihrem eigenen Geräusch, ihren eigenen Geräuschen, richtig? Ja. Probably right. Probably a little truth in that, too. No, it's all right. Are you so sour? You've been pretty sour about college football because you haven't liked what gets rewarded.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Are you still kind of sour on how the system's working?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
We now have a minor league. And they don't even have to pay for it. Baseball used to complain that they used to be jealous that the NFL had college football, that they had a minor league without having to actually spend money on their minor league versus... Und ich denke tatsächlich, dass das jetzt der Punkt sein wird, wo wir gehen werden.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Und dass die Cleveland Browns irgendwann all diese Geld auf die Hilfe der Ohio State NIL zahlen werden, um die Entwicklung der Spieler für die Ohio State zu helfen. Ich weiß, das klingt verrückt, aber das ist vielleicht, wo das System vorliegt.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Well, and it's still, the other reason that sports, I think, is a unifier is it really is the one place where the meritocracy still works. Yes, there's nepotism. Yes, there's a lot. But ultimately, if you've got it, you're going to make it. And if you don't got it, you're not going to make it.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I thought Miami would win a game. I mean, I knew they didn't match up.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I love Evan Mobley. I think, and you know, it's interesting. I'm skeptical you guys can beat Boston.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Well, I'm wondering, there's a part of me that thinks that this is really, we're all just, these are just the, we're just sort of watching the set up for Oklahoma City and Boston to face off. You know, I mean, I hate to say it, but until Cleveland beats Boston, they have to beat them. You have to assume it.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
India has very much a conventional military advantage over Pakistan, but the fact that Pakistan also has nukes, that is what's kept this sort of uneasy balance between the two countries. And so it I think it looks like they're they're both going to take their off ramps. Obviously, if India escalates any more than Pakistan is probably going to feel the need to respond.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I love it. Concert recommendations. This will air before you're at the Metallica concert.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
It will air before. No, this will air before. So this is good. So if they catch the Metallica concert on Friday. Yes, I'll be thinking of them all. Absolutely. Mr. Kasich, I appreciate it. The book is Heaven Help Us. There you go. Heaven Help Us. It's a good read and it's an easy. It's a. Yes, it is. It's a it's a nourishing read. Exactly. It is a good news read.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And I do wish good news sold as well as bad news. But, you know, another another plane land safely at National News.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Das war's für heute. Bis zum nächsten Mal. And I go back and forth on where the future of faith is going in America and how much where our moral compass seems to be messed up. And It seems to have coincided with a retreat from organized religion, which I myself am somebody who is a retreater. And yet I think you can have a moral code and a moral compass without it.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
But I understand those that look at what's happened in this current environment that we're living in and that we seem to be so transactional financially, that that's the only thing that matters. We'll overlook character, we'll overlook immorality as long as we get ours. That is something that certainly people would have been, other than that quote-unquote prosperity gospel business.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
But that most people of faith sort of see the sort of the, hey, we've got to have, you know, preach that kind of morality. Anyway, it's, I think, more of a provocative conversation to have amongst yourselves a little bit. All right, before we go, let's do a little Ask Chuck.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
All right. First question. You know, anything that praises me, I'm going to end up asking your question here. This comes from James and he says, I like your suggestion for expanding the house. A few follow-up questions. Will this diminish the impact of gerrymandering? How do we have to go about implementing something like this?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Will it require a new constitutional amendment or simply for Congress to pass this as a new law? So, James, the beauty of this and why I'm such an advocate of it is that you don't need a constitutional amendment. It is up to the House. It is just an act of Congress. And this was the norm up until 1920. which is as our population expanded with every census.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
But they really don't have the resources to deal with India and a conventional military front. And there's no doubt that they can't escalate. But this is a reminder of what happens. I don't think it's an accident. that when the US is in retreat, that suddenly we see situations like this.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
We didn't just reapportion the congressional districts. We also made a decision to decide, okay, what size should the districts be? How much should we expand the house by? Maybe we add 10 new districts, 15, whatever it is. So, no, that's the beauty of this. And gerrymandering, it is, look,
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
You're never going to get rid of gerrymandering as long as the Constitution says state legislatures are essentially in charge of deciding these lines. There's always going to be, and I always would caution people, I don't think you can quote unquote get rid of the practice. And the reason I say this is that because
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
You never know when you need to use gerrymandering in order to create more competitive districts. If, say, your state passes a referendum that says districts should have some form of competitiveness to them as one of the things. Not everybody believes that congressional districts should be based that way. And not all congressional districts are drawn that way.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
But look, I think the reason I'm such an advocate of this is, ist, dass es nicht eine konstitutionelle Änderung nimmt. Ich denke, es minimiert einfach die Bedürfnisse, um zu verhandeln.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Wenn du diese kleineren 400.000 Mitgliedstaaten von Interesse hast, wo Arlington, Texas bei 400.000 Leuten eine Interesse-Gemeinschaft ist, denke ich, können wir zusammenkommen, dass sie einen Mitglied des Kongresses bekommen, aber du würdest nicht wollen, dass die gesamte DFW von einer Person vertreten ist, oder sogar die Hälfte der DFW.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Are they really going to represent the interests of Arlington and Fort Worth or Arlington or Fort Worth? Will they pick one? You see where I'm going here. So I think it definitely limits the need and limits the motivation of gerrymandering on that front. And then, of course, the other thing it fixes is the Electoral College, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
You double the amount of votes in the Electoral College and you make it to where the popular vote in the Electoral College are less likely to to be in conflict when all the numbers are set in. So, James, I hope I've made you now not just a supporter of the idea, but now an advocate. Go out there and evangelize about this. Uncap the house.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Uncap the house and we start solving some of our polarization problems in this country. Okay, next question comes from Eric C., How does an individual or an entity get to label itself as nonpartisan? I'm thinking of advocacy groups or think tanks, even government entities, etc. I saw an individual sitting for an interview on what we'll call an unnamed news program.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And the individual was from an advocacy group, which the news program labeled as nonpartisan. And it struck me as a potentially subjective label. Yes, I am taping on Wednesday evening, May 7th. Bummed that the caps are down 1-0 to... Normally a team that I would be rooting for, any team who's the Hurricanes, but not the Carolina Hurricanes. I don't root for any Carolina Hurricanes.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
All my Hurricanes are in Miami. Not even my friends in Tulsa in the Golden Hurricane. No, we only root for the Miami Hurricanes. So we shall see. Let's go. I have a lot of confidence that this Caps team... It just feels like there's a narrative here with Ovechkin. He breaks the record. Sort of one last hurrah. Kind of like Brady and his Tampa Super Bowl. But maybe we get that.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
So we're in the middle of a philosophical shift here in Washington, and the Trump administration has made it clear, both through words and action, that its foreign policy is going to prioritize disengagement. weniger NATO, weniger Ukraine, weniger Vertrauen in traditionelle Verbindungen. Dies muss sowohl ökonomisch sein.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And one more Stanley Cup from Ovechkin. But you bring up a good point about nonpartisan, bipartisan and all that stuff. I don't know if the word nonpartisan... I guess the... The one place that I've been comfortable having somebody label themselves as nonpartisan is active members of the military, because they have to be nonpartisan. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
They have to follow the commander, the orders, the commander in chief, no matter who the commander in chief is. So I think there's do you behave in a nonpartisan way? But everybody is born with, I always say, inherent bias. I always check my pulse. Okay, yeah, I'm a human being. Humans are born with original bias, is what I like to call it.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And meaning, you know, everybody has an ideology and a partisanship that is formed as much by where you're born, who you're born. zu, when you were born, the circumstances of your childhood, all of that is shaping. So it shapes you, and so there's bias, and where there's bias, there's going to be some form of partisanship.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
So I don't think, I think there's, I think these government entities, Congressional Budget Office, I would label as bipartisan, because essentially they are, it's a staff that has been
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
um that has been hired by people appointed by both parties right so um that to me is by private the federal reserve to me is bipartisan um so i i think bipartisan is a better version of that um i think nonpartisan i think you're not wrong it's not just subjective i just think that you know if you know if you're nonpartisan
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
A partisan on the left or right might view you as an opponent anyway because you're not for their side of things. If you're using the descriptor of nonpartisan as a way to avoid taking a stand on something, are you actually being nonpartisan or are you – Are you being sort of a silent partisan, if you will, by not by not taking a stance on something? So I think it's a fair point.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And I think that I don't think anybody is the only entities that I think in American institutions that are probably best to be described as nonpartisan or as the military. Look, I've always said, you know. Es gibt diese verrückte Phrase, die Roger Ailes und Fox mit fair und balance gemacht haben. Nun, ich glaube nicht, dass die beiden, ich denke, diese Phrase ist in Konflikt, richtig?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Wir sehen das mit dem Vertritt auf den Handel, aber auch einfach mehr Skepsis im Allgemeinen an multilateralen Vertreter, auch wenn sie mit Sicherheit kommen. Hier ist das Problem mit diesem Ansatz und warum es die Situation in Indien und Pakistan erhöht hat. ist, dass es ein Signal schickt, wenn Amerika sich so verabschiedet.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Man kann Fairness nicht balance machen. Man ist entweder fair oder balance. Und Balance ist auch ein sehr subjektives Wort. Also denke ich, das Beste, weißt du, der Begriff, den ich journalistisch strenge, ist Fairness. I'm going to be fair. Tough but fair. If I could be described that way, in an interview that way, tough but fair, I would.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And I think fairness doesn't always mean you're going to like all the questions, but they're fair questions to be asked. All right. Last question comes from Dell. I'm desperate for someone to answer a question for me. It might sound basic, but I feel like it is basic. Affect the average person. I mean higher prices. We already see that now from the pandemic to tariffs. So is that any different?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
I'm just really confused about the boogeyman. I've heard about for 48 years. It feels like the boy who cried wolf. Look, I tend to agree with you, right? And the whole what we thought was debt to GDP ratio that we could withstand. Turns out it was much higher, which many economists had said. As long as we're the reserve currency of the world, as long as the dollar is a safe haven. Oh, whoops.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Is it a safe haven anymore? Our debt won't matter until it does. So the problem is, if you do policies, I think if we continue to pursue the policies, these tariff policies, which then sort of. send a message to the world that maybe we're not the free trade haven of the world, that we're not the safe haven of financial markets.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
If people start to question, what gives us the safe haven status is that we have a rule of law that is pretty good, that if we're suddenly not the reserve currency, then our debt holders are Then all of a sudden, then you'd have interest rate hikes and then this would have catastrophic effects, right? And this is what happened in Europe when there was a debt crisis with the Greeks.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And there's been other countries where they've had that, but the other countries that have had these debt crises weren't reserve currencies and didn't sort of have our economic standing that we do here. So... Look, I tend to think that we do overdo the debt issue. And it is sort of a convenient way to try to... Because the numbers sound so fantastical, right? And that debt clock is everything.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
But, you know, not... Some of that debt is bad debt. But some of that debt is, you know... debt that just about every Fortune 500 company would call good debt, right? It's debt. You're borrowing money today to finance something for economic empowerment tomorrow, right? You're borrowing money today to build housing, which will only create new taxpayers tomorrow, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
So I think we in the media do a poor job of explaining the debt and what it really means. And which which debt is good debt and which debt is bad debt. But this becomes more of an acute issue if our standing is the reserve. If we suddenly have sovereign funds all over the world decide that the US dollar is not a safe haven, that US Treasuries are not a safe haven.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And once they don't become a safe haven, well, then you sort of have runaway interest rates. And then that that. creates a catastrophe. But guess what? If the debt ever becomes a problem for America, the whole globe's in trouble. You want to talk about a contagion issue? And in some ways because you want to talk about too big to fail? The United States is too big to fail. So in some ways
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Und das Signal ist, dass wir nicht mehr die Welt's Beat Cup spielen werden. Wir werden nicht mehr die Welt's First Responder werden, wenn es eine Krise gibt. that we're not even sure we want to be leader of the free world anymore. I think the president wants to be the strongest country in the world, but he doesn't want to take that strength and accept the responsibility.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
It's probably why our debt is never going to be ultimately as catastrophic a problem as some might argue. But you know what? My answer to that question is likely to trigger some fun responses. And I would love to hear from you. Tell me why I'm wrong on this one. Explain to me how our debt as it currently stands.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
could be as catastrophic as some of you think i would love to love to hear from you that and remember any question you have here ask chuck at the chuckpodcast.com drop a comment in the youtube or drop a comment in any of the podcast feeds or instagram feed tick tock all of those places we comb all of them for potential questions um and we're we're only going to ask the relevant questions the good questions but uh i would love to hear from you uh on some contrarian answers uh on the debt but uh
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Del, I appreciate that question. And I appreciate all of you for sticking around, for listening. And until I upload again.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
That means that we're sort of the, you know, we're the first ones to respond to a crisis, whether it's a natural disaster, a famine, a civil war, an outbreak between two countries. Look, I get it's actually politically pretty popular. um zu sagen, das sind nicht unsere Kämpfe, Amerika kann nicht der Weltkopf sein. Aber hier ist immer meine Antwort darauf.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Wenn Amerika nicht die Rolle des Weltkopfes spielt, wer wird es sein? Und hier wäre meine Erinnerung, wie ich diese Frage beantworten würde. Es ist egal, wer es macht, wir werden es nicht mögen, wenn es jemand anderes ist, außer uns. Okay? Außer uns. Wir vertrauen uns selbst, unseren Werten. If we're not there to fill in the gap, you know who will be? China.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
vielleicht in einigen Teilen der Welt, Russland. Schau dir einfach den ganzen Kontinent von Afrika an. Beide Russland und China machen so viele Ausflüge. Militär zu Militär Ausflüge, die Russland in verschiedenen Orten gemacht hat. Und sie sind nicht interessiert in der Hilfe der afrikanischen Leute, sie sind interessiert in der Hilfe von sich selbst.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Hello there, happy Thursday. Welcome to another episode of the Chuck Podcast. So my guest later in this podcast yesterday, we uploaded, I say yesterday, I know in the world of podcasting, perhaps you just list, you're listening to this. My previous episode. How about we say that?
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
China hat sich in einer anderen Art und Weise engagiert. Sie sind finanziell engagiert. Sie sind tatsächlich ein großer Teil der ökonomischen Erweiterung in Afrika.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
The United States has been way behind, and if anything, with essentially the shuttering of AID, we've actually disengaged even more from Africa, which is throwing many countries into the arms of China or any other entity that is willing to invest. So, look, it looks like cooler heads are going to prevail in India and Pakistan.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
But it was a bit disconcerting, and I know we're doing some stuff behind the scenes. But we weren't at the forefront of this. We weren't quickly trying to deescalate in a hurry. We weren't quickly trying to... The point is.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
My concern now is that what we're going to see is not less of this, but more of this, where countries are going, countries and frankly terrorist organizations are going to sort of test. Oh, there's no more American beat cop on here. Let's see what happens. Right. And it's almost like testing the fence.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
And if you're in India, you're sitting there going, oh, we're going to have to respond on our own. There isn't going to be a global partner like the United States. Think about the neighborhood India is in. They've got China to the north, they've got Pakistan to the west. They certainly don't trust the Pakistanis and they don't trust the Chinese.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
In many ways, they have by necessity decided to come closer to the United States. During the Cold War, India was on the Soviet side of things and Pakistan by necessity was on the American side of things. Ever since, and it really started with George W. Bush after 9-11 and then more so with Barack Obama. And that was actually continued by Donald Trump.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
There's been a through line here of getting closer to India. Economically, India is likely to be the biggest beneficiary in the trade war with China. So we certainly have a lot of interest in a stable and secure Southeast Asia. Now the question is whether we're willing to use our larger global capital to do that. And I think the fact that it looks like we won't,
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
It's just the likelihood of more of these small regional conflicts breaking out into hot wars. And of course, one between two nuclear powers is always of a huge concern. But I'll be honest, this is something that I think American disengagement indirectly... ist die Möglichkeit, mehr davon zu machen. Das ist der Grund, warum so viele von uns pro internationalen Engagement sind.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Denn wenn man sich die letzten 80 Jahre nach World War II anschaut, hat ein amerikanischer freier Weltraum sicherer und sicherer für den ganzen Planeten gewesen. Denn in any of the years previous to World War Two or frankly already, as we see as we begin this disengagement, how violent things are already getting on multiple continents. So. Like I said, hopefully things continue to deescalate.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
My previous episode, I had a former Democratic Governor of Washington State, Jay Inslee, who himself ran for President in 2020. Well, for this episode, I have a former Republican Governor of the great state of Ohio. who ran for president in 2016. It's John Kasich. He's got a new book about how faith communities can essentially do good in America in different ways.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
One other little note that I want to make before we get to the interview with John Kasich. Joe Biden is back. He did a sit down with the BBC. In some ways, he didn't really share anything new in the conversation. He expressed his speaking of international alliances. He he called it he called Donald Trump's decision to pressure Ukraine into accepting sort of Russia ceding territory to Russia.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
He called that modern day appeasement. And he drew plenty of parallels to the failed policies of the 1930s. Und er glaubte auch, dass diese Konzessionen nur weiter Wladimir Putin erneuern werden. Und natürlich der größte Test der NATO-Allianz, den wir alle fürchten, ist, was passiert, wenn er in Latwien oder Lithuania oder Estonien entscheidet. Alle drei sind NATO-Staaten.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Alle drei sind auf der Grenze von Russland. Ich bin alt genug, um zu erinnern, als ein Tucker Carlson flippend gesagt hat, was für Amerikaner bereit sind, gegen Estonien zu kämpfen. Well, that's what Article 5 in NATO seems to say. And there is no doubt in my mind that Putin is going to want to test this premise. If he can get
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
Europe to believe that the United States won't be there for a NATO member country. It would destroy NATO and probably allow him to just march on through Eastern Europe if we're not careful on that front. More of Biden. He seemed to he he was asked about the withdrawal. Should he have gotten out sooner? Does he regret getting out at all? And he just simply said it was a difficult decision.
The Chuck ToddCast
John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure
He believes an earlier exit wouldn't have benefited, wouldn't have changed the outcome. It's an interesting take. Now we know he's going to be sitting down with the folks at The View. He's looking for some friendly territory. He knows some books are about to come out that are really going to expose what I would call was sort of... Ja.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
It was OK. This was just for pregnancy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
So basically, not even paternity.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And you saw it really in 2021 going in to Biden's one term there that the pattern of the party out of power suddenly looks more appealing because. What we're really in is an era of voters telling us what they don't like. We've now had three straight presidential elections where voters have voted against. They've told us they voted who they didn't want.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
You certainly were told. I mean, I remember, you know, don't go on an airplane in eight months.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
You're in the Capitol Hill cubbyhole office.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
This is where where news is being made.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Let me pause here. Let me pause here. Why did he cancel the week? So he canceled the week. He didn't have to cancel the week.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I mean, this seems like taking his ball and going home.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Is there is there some math, magical math with two extra members since he just got the two special elections? Does that give him a chance to do? I was just going to say, I don't feel like the two like if you told me, OK, he was waiting for two more votes. Yeah, but right now.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Yeah. And of course, a problem he always has, if Donald Trump doesn't care about an issue, then suddenly Mike Johnson is paralyzed. Is that basically how Congress works right now?
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
They didn't want Hillary Clinton as president, so Donald Trump became president. They didn't want a second Donald Trump term, so Joe Biden became president. They didn't want a Kamala Harris slash Biden second term, so we ended up with Donald Trump. And how do you know that that's the case? Because look how quickly... Trump's approval rating fell. It fell even faster than Biden's.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Obama did not have this kind of sway. He had a lot of sway over the Democratic Party. He did not have this kind of sway. Yeah, but Chuck, I mean, I was shocked.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I've never really worked with Democrats. I mean, that is you just pointed out something like Obama sometimes could go to Ryan because there was this accepted premise that, hey, Sometimes we align more than them. And of course, that was frankly, now we will say another era right now. It's so sacrilege to work with the other side. There's nothing to it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
But they're really even in Trump's first term, there was a handful of Democrats he at times could turn to. I don't think that exists right now.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
No, you know, this is, and this is something that I think folks don't fully understand. And frankly, I don't think the larger Washington press corps has fully articulated because I think they don't, they don't trust this. And it's going to, it's as follows. The anger and the grievance and the revenge of Trump is not just Trump now. It really is everybody around him. And this is,
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
This is revenge over being canceled. This is revenge over not getting any jobs on corporate boards when they are out of power. This is revenge for not being able to become professors at university. I say this because it's true, right? You had an establishment, whether it was in media, whether it was in academia, whether it was in the corporate world who said, you know what?
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
We're not hiring anybody, Trump. And so I'm not sitting here saying tit for tat is a good thing or anything. I'm just sort of, we sort of need to understand this is the mindset. And so this isn't gonna change. There isn't gonna be a warming of relations. There isn't gonna be negotiations.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
In fact, I have no idea why these law firms are doing it, because the minute you capitulate once, he's gonna keep coming back, right? It seems like with each one. But I do think folks need to understand, hey, when you – there's that old adage, when you go for the king, you better – you shoot the king, you better not miss. Yeah, I agree.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And the establishment, the elite establishment missed, okay, for a variety of reasons. We can go through it, Mitch McConnell, et cetera, et cetera, but you missed. And now he's got power, and he's decided to use it to just – I really believe that this isn't ever going to there isn't going to be a Donald Trump that in six months says, hey, Chuck Schumer and Akeem Jeffries, let's cut a deal.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And what's instructive, I think, right, about all of them is that Trump won, Biden won, and Trump too, is that in all cases, they started with a little bit of a honeymoon, not a great one, but somewhere in the 50% mark. And it's almost like the first crisis dipped them and they never recovered.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I think we're paralyzed.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Is there anything, you know, I've, I've said, you know, one of the biggest problems, you know, we've, we've got a lot of things to sort of like, how did we get to this moment where, where, where all of the power is so concentrated to a few people, right. In the legislative branch, the fact that committee chairs have very,
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
less say today than they've ever had before, or the fact that we have the imperial presidency, and we only have the imperial presidency because the legislative branch gave all these powers to the presidency. And let's start with this tariff business. Is there any appetite in Congress right now to try to take back some of their authority on tariffs?
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I mean, you know, I joke it's like, you know, if you want to fix if you're angry about our president, if you are tired of our presidential elections being this. Oh, my God. Right. You know, it's sort of this this the Armageddon type elections take power away from the presidency. This is not what the founders intended.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
They wanted the they wanted the speaker to be the most powerful, frankly, the most powerful policymaker in the country. Did they not?
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I might say you have to go back to Rayburn and LBJ. But yeah, I mean, you know, I guess I guess you could say Tip had some power, but still.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
That's in the Senate.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Trump really never recovered from from sort of the initial sort of chaos of the first 90 days of administration, the travel ban, the in and out, all the different fired members, you know, firing James Comey, the launch of the special counsel probe. Right. So there was all this chaos and it sort of kept his approval ratings in the mid 40s with Joe Biden.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
What what do you think the how strong is the stomach of these elected Republicans who are going to be on the ballot in 26 as they watch the economy become shakier and shakier and shakier, especially if these tariffs do the damage that a lot of economists expect them to do?
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
They and they didn't get it too late, though, Jake. The tariffs are ruining whatever. I mean, this is where. Look, forget whether these are good ideas or not. Just politically, if they wanted these impacts, he should have waited on tariffs six months. And he should have just focused on getting his tax cut. He could have probably gotten the tax cut and started the tariffs and Labor Day.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I mean, that would have been that would have been the look. I still think these are terrible ideas and it's probably going to cause lots of lots of long term problem. But let's say he is intent on doing it. He's doing this out of order.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
We're again, I'm going to signpost. The tariffs haven't been announced yet. Correct. It's astonishing to me how little information the White House has been sharing with their allies on Capitol Hill.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I don't think Peter Navarro knows what's going to happen. I don't think Howard Lucknick knows what's going to happen. I don't think Scott Besant.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Well, part of that is there's no staff. You know, the last Trump administration had a staff around him that had some of them had experience on Capitol Hill. So they believed in some of the procedures. Hey, we got to give a heads up to these allies. This team is so inexperienced.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
He sort of hung in there until the Afghanistan withdrawal debacle. He dipped below 45, never recovered. Right. I frankly assume that Donald Trump doesn't get over 45 for the rest of his presidency. Now, if it happens, I'm going to assume it's some outside event that we don't know about that essentially rally where the country does the rally around the flag.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
You know, in some ways there's a couple of but it's actually I mean, you know, Susie Wiles has never really worked in Washington. It's been a long time since he did. It goes so far back that arguably it's a different Washington. Oh, for sure. And you and I have both witnessed chiefs of staff who have not had Washington experience how much they struggle with it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Obviously, there's a ledge affairs person that has some experience, but it's a shockingly inexperienced cabinet outside of Marco Rubio in the ways of Washington.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
You know, I mean, it's by the way, I just was at a company that did a terrible job at that. OK, at times. And it would blow up in their face. You know, I don't need to. You know, I was involved in one of the incidents. When you don't do that stuff before an announcement, you create all sorts of problems.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Speaking of allies, Elise Stefanik, she's still a Trump ally.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
She was an elected leader in the House, relinquishes it in order to take this from the last Congress in order to take the U.N. ambassador job. And then he strips it, you know. Probably correct.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I mean, when you look at what happened in Florida and, you know, we have the shot, you know, the issue of the shotgun Trump voters who just don't show up when Trump's not on the ballot, coupled with a fired up Dem base. Look, I know her district pretty well. I got relatives that live in the in her district and it's right next to Albany in the capital region.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
That's a that probably would be a coin flip special.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
He made it clear publicly. With Walt saying, I mean, you know, and you can't you can't help but laugh how close we came to Walt's being out of his job by the time his his seat was filled. I mean, we're arguably I don't know when the oath is going to happen for Randy Fine. And I'm not sure where Mike Waltz is. You know, I'm sure he wakes up every morning right now wondering, is this my last day?
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Considering we know how Trump could just
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
That's to me the only way you would see his numbers go up because he almost seems intent on rallying. creating such a disruptive presidency that it's almost inevitable that that you're going to you're going to have this negativity. The question I have for the for the Democrats is this. Are they ready to truly sort of have the fight to figure out who they are?
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
A hundred percent. I mean, you know, look, what's the most unique thing? And I talked about it on my previous podcast. The thing that I think people are misreading about Florida One is that, you know, there's Republicans in that district and it's in Pensacola and I happen to know it. They have a DeSantis problem.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
DeSantis has caused all sorts of like, you know, sometimes all politics actually is local and he has created a local firestorm over the University of West Florida board. Yeah. And all these local officials are just ticked off at him. Republicans. And ironically, the guy who was the chief antagonist to DeSantis in trying to do this was Randy Fine. It's a fascinating story.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
But I do think, you know, because to me, the shock wasn't that Both of those districts underperformed from 24. It was that it was I think we all expected Florida six to be closer than Florida one. And when it didn't happen, you're sitting there going, well, on one hand, national money, I think, did rescue fine and probably boosted him four or five points.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And and but with Petronas, that was a separate and it is very DeSantis caused. It's a it's a fascinating little problem.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Look, Escambia County, which is Pensacola, it's where the naval base is. She carried it. The Democrat carried the county. The last time any Democrat carried that county in any election was Bill Nelson 2006, Mr. Sherman.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And actually, so the canary in the coal mine on this is going to be. If we suddenly see some Republican retirements in the next six months or if we suddenly see Republicans looking, hey, maybe this is the time I'm going to go run for attorney general in my state or I'm going to go run for something because trying if you run for Congress, you're defending Trump and Musk right now.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
You can't run your own race.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And if it doesn't get like going to the Democratic side, you mean what Michael Bennett is saying?
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I think the Democrats have to be careful here. You know, they have one the one advantage they go and there's a there's a majority coalition in this country that doesn't like Trump ism. or Trump himself. They don't like his philosophy in the economy. They don't like his philosophy in foreign policy. They don't like his philosophy and certainly don't like his character, et cetera.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Well. Michael Bennett, Democratic senator from Colorado, who looks like he's all but announced his candidacy for governor because he's trashing the institution as he walks out right now. And I say that with with respect. I like Michael a lot. He he. He said a critique that has been said for a long time, and it drives me nuts.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And he basically said the problem with the Senate is that nobody has any say if you're not in leadership. And frankly, I would argue if you're not in the top leadership. You know, I joke that there are 535 members of Congress, but there are only four that matter. That's how we govern the institution. It is. And it's a you're doing you're doing it the way you should be doing it right now.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
But this is not how the institution should function.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
They have some more influence than the average House member.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Look, you know, it's funny. It's like we have a new type of member. Look, you've been doing this now over a decade. Right. It's a different member of Congress today, right, than it was 15 years ago. Like the average member of Congress 15 years ago was somebody who I mean, I don't mean you could you could stereotype it. You know, they sort of work their way up to that moment.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
We now, what do you say, about 25% of the membership now are sort of by happen, not happenstance is the wrong word because they decided to run, but it's people who 10 years ago never thought they'd be a member of Congress. And over the last, they said, I'm going to do this and they can win, particularly on the Republican side.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Like, look, I'm somebody I think we need to double the size of the house. I think there needs to be 800 members. We need to uncap. No, I think it's a huge issue. I think congressional districts are way too big, way too bad.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
But the problem for the Democrats is there's a slice of these anti-Trump folks or folks that are not comfortable with Trump who don't trust the Democratic Party, who view the Democratic Party as too far to the left, who view the Democratic Party as too out of touch. Maybe they're uncomfortable with their economic policies. They're uncomfortable with their cultural thing.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
How secretly excited were congressional Republicans that Elon Musk got his butt handed to him? And I say this because there is a – when you look at the – there were two elections on the ballot in Wisconsin. And I think it's very important to note how – The the look, they were all nonpartisan. One was for superintendent of public instruction and one was for the Supreme Court seat.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Elon Musk was obviously all about the Supreme Court seat. That candidate that he endorsed did worse than the Republican endorsed candidate. in the superintendent of public instruction.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
So that tells me that he, not only was there a turnout advantage for the left, not only was there the typical shotgun voter problem, but there was a slice of voters, about two percentage points of the electorate that voted for the Republican side in public instruction, but then voted for the liberal. or maybe just simply voted against Musk. I mean, he was clearly a liability in that race.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And I know I heard some chatter from some Republicans that were like, boy, you know, the perfect outcome is win both House seats and have Elon face plant.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Actually, it's they're setting themselves back. They're going to make it harder. They're going to have all these. Now they have lawsuits. And I promise, you know, many government contractors are going to win. lawsuits a couple of years from now for sort of unpaid contracts or back pay bankrupt. I mean, you could just picture it, companies that had to file for bankruptcy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And then they're going to say it's because the government, you know, violated this contract. And, you know, it's just you sort of you sort of realize it's definitely going to happen. Chuck Schumer's Let me ask you this. If if there for whatever reason was a Senate leadership election today in the Senate Democratic Conference, would Schumer still win it? Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
In a conversation I had with Chris Eliza, I said, you know, it's like if you're a college basketball fan, it's like watching those tournaments that take place in Hawaii over the holidays. They count. They're real regular season games. They give you a sense of who's good, who's not, et cetera. But it is not the be all end all. But it's a temperature check.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
So the Democrats have to figure out, can they develop a message that figures out how to talk to the, say, 55% who will get comfortable enough to say, okay, we trust you to govern.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Or would there be would there be would he have a real challenger?
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
It sounds like how you would have described McConnell's standing two years ago.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
You know that everybody's flawed, but you know, like I know that I'm comfortable with that and it's clean enough.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And I think the question is gonna be, is it gonna be as simple as the party having the same debate that they had in 1988 after they lost that and you had the rise of Bill Clinton who was sort of a pro-business Democrat who sort of beat back Jesse Jackson at the time, who was sort of the leader of the more liberal wing of the party. Is it something like that? If it is, and it's pretty simple, okay.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Um, how, uh, At this point, it's hard to predict, you know, anything with this with with the way Trump handles things. But we got a debt ceiling issue coming up. They want to get this tax cut thing. What what is the realistic time? I have always assumed that even though they keep saying we're not going to do what Biden and the Democrats did and let it drag out too long.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Why does it seem inevitable to me that this is still going that they're not going to get their big, beautiful bill until sometime in October or November?
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
They always do. I mean, right. Like this is one of those. It's like it's like betting on a one seat versus a 16 seat. Yeah, it's possible that a 16 seat can win every now and then. It's happened twice. Right. And it's more likely where, you know. Yeah, I've heard these deadlines. The August recess. You know, many times I've heard August recess deadlines. Obamacare was an August recess deadline.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Welcome back to another episode of the Chuck Todd cast. It is day two in my sort of new world here and for my friends now on YouTube. Hopefully you are liking and subscribing. I'm still learning the lingo. So cut me a little bit of slack there. For episode one, I was able to talk about the post-election fallout of April 1st. And that was sort of the first temperature check, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
The last tax cut plane was an August recess. And the August it never that is never a real deadline.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And we all know why. They all do have vacation plans in August or CODELs. So they won't let it hang. So they're like, ah, screw it. We'll go to September. And then, of course, you get the Jewish holidays and all this stuff. And then suddenly it's post-Thanksgiving and you still don't have your tax cut.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Let me get you out of here on this. You and I both went to GW. We're trying to help revitalize GW basketball. We are doing our best. Do we think we have a chance given what we're watching with the mid majors? You know, you and I have both been sort of been briefed on how they're trying to see if they could do this. But you look at all these these NCAA Final Four teams and you look at their rosters.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Right. And a lot of them started out. at mid-majors and gravitated to, you know, essentially to the top of the college basketball food chain. There's a part of me that looks at this and wonders, is this trying to take, dump water out of a boat that has a hole in it?
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
She seems fairly committed to this because she, she's a, she was at Clemson as a provost, saw the sort of what, what Clemson's football success did for the academic success. And Chuck, I tell them, it is linked.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I'm curious, how many members of Congress are going to be are going to want to get involved with this mess of how the NCAA, because we all know everybody's college program is sacrosanct to their district. Right. So there they could easily find a way.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And we all you know, my wife's a big college football fan and she's been convinced Congress is going to step in simply because it's too much of a mess for it not not to have some sort of federal intervention.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And then you start to look out for sort of governors who start to find that space. You see Rahm Emanuel, who's not a former governor, but a former mayor of Chicago. He's trying to sort of sit in that pro-business space. In fact, he just took a job with a private equity firm. I don't think that...
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
No, they don't want that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
No, but you do have a few. Blumenthal and Booker have always been trying to get involved. Booker being a former athlete. I know. But, yeah. It's tough. Definitely, somebody needs to be in charge. But, you know, these are the problems.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I don't want to talk about that little tournament we participated in in Las Vegas.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Not everybody was playing. We're not going to talk about it. It was bad. Jake Sherman, you're the man. Thanks, Chuck. I'm going to overpromise here, but I have a feeling I'm going to be inviting you on a lot, so you better not ghost me.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
You know, 10 years ago, that would have been seen as a decision somebody makes on the Democratic side if they're not going to run for president, because the assumption would be there's no way you could win a primary if you were somehow part of private equity. I think Rahm Emanuel is trying to bet differently on that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Jake. As I said, he knows all the machinations up there. Capitol Hill, if you're a young journalist and you're trying to figure out where should you go to become a good journalist, the single best beat in politics is Capitol Hill.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I call it the crime beat of politics because there's always a story walking the halls of Congress and it's open to the public. You don't need an extra press pass or anything. There's always a story to be found in the walk of Congress. Before we go, most Thursdays, I'm going to try to have a mailbag, going to try to respond to your questions, given that this is my first Thursday edition.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I do have a couple of questions that I had gotten from the website during my hiatus, and I'm going to answer one of them here in a minute. But if you have a question that you'd like me to address, I'm going to try, like I said, I'll take as many as you guys can send from a week-to-week basis, but you can send it to AskChuck at TheChuckPodcast.com.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Again, that email address is AskChuck at TheChuckPodcast.com. You can go to the website too at TheChuckPodcast.com and click there if you somehow didn't remember the address I just gave you. But let me answer this question. It comes from Jeff Hall. And here's what he wrote a couple of days ago. He wrote this. Signalgate got wiped off the media's windscreen by the third term discussion.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
While the third term threat does exist, but is obviously down the road. Was that just used as a smokescreen to get people to forget about Signalgate and now Gmail? Obviously, Gmail referring to the news that the National Security Advisor and some others in the Trump administration was using Gmail, which is a violation of federal open records policies, etc. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Here's the thing, Jeff, is that when it comes to Trump and the various shiny metal objects that perhaps we in the larger press corps chase, the idea that they're planned, I think, is a bit overstated. Donald Trump doesn't plan anything. And in many ways, he's both a reporter's dream and a potential nightmare. What do I mean by that? Donald Trump Let me put it in these terms.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I think you might see some other governors, whether it's Andy Beshear or Josh Shapiro, try to sort of remove themselves a little bit, at least from the from the cultural stereotypes that have that have been seen as a negative thing. for the Democratic side. But I would say this, I do wonder if there is such exhaustion with
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
If you know the movie Anchorman, the first Anchorman, there's this great scene where they sort of make fun of Ron Burgundy and the producers go, you know, he'll say anything that's in that teleprompter. Anything. Well, Donald Trump, he will muse about any idea you give him. If you say to him, have you ever thought about making Japan the 52nd state? He might say no, but I'll think about it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And you could immediately turn that into a headline. Donald Trump is thinking about trying to acquire Japan as America's 52nd state. This is assuming, of course, after Canada becomes the 51st state. This is the danger in asking these third term questions. On one hand, if he is actually doing things that are trying to find a legal path to do a third term, that's newsworthy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
If you ask him to muse about it, Is it a news story, right? That becomes the trap. And it is a very sticky topic, right? The minute it's out there and you saw, my goodness, there are op-eds everywhere, there are law professors everywhere. And it seems like we have this news cycle about every three months.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
We were having it even the last time when people were wondering, well, is he going to is he going to abide by the fact that he's only going to get one term, et cetera? I am very you know, I think that reporters ought to stop asking the question. In some ways, you may be coming. The more he's asked about it, the more he talks about it, the more normalized the idea might become.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And so, look, it's always been tricky how to cover Donald Trump, which is, do you push the envelope there? Do you assume the worst and prepare for the worst? Or do you cover what's in front of you and sort of calibrate on some of the things that you ask? So I will say this. I am... And maybe I'm the naive one, and some of you might chime in here and say I'm being naive.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I don't think the third – there's just no constitutional avenue for the third term. No – under no – I've seen a few legal scholars claim there is – It is not there. The 22nd Amendment says what it says. And then the 12th Amendment takes away the loophole that's been floated because it says if you are not eligible to be president, then you are not eligible to be vice president.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Now, some might argue, well, that that that when the 12th Amendment language was written, there was no 22nd Amendment. But I think that's quite the reach. And I think it's sort of it is such a. long way away in a convoluted way, I will just say this. If you ask the question to him, You're doing him a favor. Do I think it was planned, though? No, nothing with Donald Trump is planned.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
That's I think we've all learned that lesson the hard way. Appreciate the question. I hope you guys send more to me again. Ask Chuck at the Chuck Todd cast dot com. Who knows? Maybe I'll go live one day if there's so many of them and we can do a live Q&A if I pick the right moment or the right time. But with that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I'm going to sign off for this episode and we will be I will look forward to seeing you on all of these channels the next time that we publish. So with that, I'll see you later until we upload again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And such disappointment with both parties that the thing the Democrats have to, I think, be really worried about is if there is true disruption, not just inside their own party, which could be healthy. I would argue with whatever you think of Donald Trump, Donald Trump disrupted the Republican Party on the inside, created a big fight and in essence built a new coalition.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
that we're going to find out how durable it is. It turns out I don't think it's very durable if Donald Trump's not on the ballot. But he built a coalition that was successful. He won the popular vote for the first time. He's figured out how to win. He's created a working class coalition that is beyond just white working class voters.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
That's an impressive feat as far as political organizing is concerned. And If the Democrats get disrupted internally, it could be a healthy thing. That's what Bill Clinton did. But what if the disruption comes from the outside? What if these independent candidacies, we've got a big one in Michigan with the Detroit mayor running for governor as an independent.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I'd be keeping an eye out on California. I certainly don't think a conventional Democrat is what Californians are going to want to see for the for a fifth straight term. Right. They've had eight straight. Excuse me. They've had four straight gubernatorial elections that they've won. Will they win a fifth with somebody whose title is U.S. senator, former U.S.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
senator, former vice president, lieutenant governor or. Is the only way the Democrats win a fifth, you know, sort of a fifth straight term in California is they have some outsider, somebody who hasn't held elected office.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Or does somebody say, you know what, I'm going to run as an independent, see if I can peel off the third of Republican voters that live out in California, get some some sort of pro-business Democrats and create a new coalition. And I think that that is why there is, I think, some urgency on the Democratic Party side to sort of.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
You really get to find out what, you know, what's your team made of. And I think now we got a temperature check and we found out a few things that are that really haven't changed. Right. Number one is we still have the shotgun Trump voters, as I mentioned yesterday, when Trump's not on the ballot. There is clearly a five to 10 point disadvantage for any Republican running.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Show some openness to debate and not, you know, go ahead and have a fight, but almost be open to having the debate inside your tent. Because if they at all try to sort of squelch this, I think you could start to see more interest in that. And, you know, one word of warning on there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I've often wondered, for instance, if when it comes to Israeli politics, I joke, have we exported our politics to Israel or is Israel exporting their divisive politics to us? 30 years ago, there was a robust left of center party called the Labor Party in Israel, won a lot of elections. the first election of Bibi Netanyahu seemed to fracture.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And it was sort of, in many ways, the Israeli left has been obsessed with defeating Netanyahu so much it has crumbled the Labor Party. And in order to defeat Netanyahu or come up with different coalitions to do it, they sort of have to grab, let's try this. They've created new parties to try to beat them, and they've won a couple of times.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
But there is no sort of center of gravity for the left of center political movement in Israel the way there used to be. And that to me is the risk. that Democrats have in this moment, that they can't continue to just organize themselves around being anti-Trump, because at some point, you sort of lose your own brand. And it's possible, frankly, that over the last three presidential elections,
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
by organizing themselves. Look, in fairness to them, it certainly looked like a good strategy in 16. It was a good strategy in 20 since they won, and they got really close doing it again in 24. But is it really a long-term strategy? And in some ways, are you seeing some diminishing returns here? So
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
It's it's it's something that I've been holding off on saying something I probably would have written a month ago if I'd had a place to write it. This is something I wanted to share now. So it is I'm hoping that we start to see more of these robust debates, whether it's a Gavin Newsom, a Cory Booker, a John Fetterman.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
The louder these fights are inside the Democratic Party, ironically, it may be a sign of real health, because I think if you look at the fights inside the Republican Party, It is actually over the last decade been a net positive for them, not necessarily a net negative. All right. I'm going to quick sneak a break in here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And when we come back, my conversation with the man who probably knows more about what's happening on Congress than any other individual in Washington, D.C., that's not named Mike Johnson, Speaker of the House. And that is Jake Sherman, the founder of Punchbowl News. Hey, joining me now is Jake Sherman. He is founder, one of the poobahs of Punchbowl. Mr. Sherman, good to see you, sir.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Democrats are a bit more fired up right now. Frankly, I think there was a little bit of a question. How fired up would the party be? There's been a lot of disillusionment. You've seen these town halls have gotten people fired up, but you've also seen Democrats get cranky at other Democrats because they don't think that they're fighting hard enough.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Good to see you too, Chuck. And, you know, I'm assuming I have some new listeners, new viewers. Yes, you are. I have a YouTube channel now, Jake. So you are actually going to be seen as much as you're heard. But for those that may not know what Punchbowl is, you know, I think it's the only way to understand Congress, the only people that cover Congress correctly and well and thoroughly.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I'm not saying there aren't others that do it sporadically well, but you guys... You guys are doing it at such a granular level that I don't think it's anybody else can match it. But what is give me your elevator pitch on Punchbowl these days?
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
I think there was some concern in some Democrats I talked to that maybe some would sit on their hands. Well, you didn't have that. So you clearly were starting to see in some ways... A similar pattern takes shape that we saw, frankly, when the first in 2017 during the first Trump turn.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
Do you see yourself as a high-end trade publication, not for the masses? Or do you want to do a little bit more for the masses? You know, look, I don't, you know, I've... I always talked about the old, you know, the hotline, sort of the godfather of this newsletter business. That's right. I always have emphasized that we were not trying to write for the masses.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And I think, frankly, some of the mistakes that that that the note made and Politico made in some ways was trying to take insider information and make it for the masses, which, frankly, probably perverted political journalism for a while.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
You're not there to make money off of Anna's mother in North Dakota.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
So let's talk about where I look, you were, I'm going to sign post here. We're talking on a Wednesday afternoon on April 2nd. And, um, You're frankly not as busy as I think you should be this right at this moment. Right. Congress abruptly left town. It had to do with the speaker not being happy by a forced vote on him. I guess it was a discharge petition.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
My apologies for using that kind of lingo for those. But essentially, they that some members of Congress led by a. a former Freedom caucus, I say former because I believe Anna Luna has now quit the Freedom caucus, who was trying to allow proxy voting for essentially maternal and paternity leave.
The Chuck ToddCast
Democrats Need Some Soul Searching + Jake Sherman On The Capitol Hill Chaos
And I'm going to guess any sort of like, you know, major health crisis where you were going to be away, either a family member, et cetera, away. Seems like a pretty, it was interesting that she got some bipartisan support for this.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
If he can show that he actually knows how to make one of these trade deals. I do think the markets will reward him. But these are hard and complicated and these tariffs aren't going to go away until these deals are done. And that's that's what's going to I think that's what's going to impact his political ratings even further.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
You know, it is interesting to me that the Walmart and Target folks, when they met with the president, used the visual of empty shelves by July. If this if this trade war with China doesn't deescalate. One thing about Donald Trump is he understands visuals. He knows this is a guy who is essentially has tried to turn perceptions into reality.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
So he understands how quickly perceptions can become reality. He is somebody that tries to create false realities. So when you have somebody who's that good at that, they're aware of how powerful empty shelves. You know who has empty shelves? Russia, right? Communist countries, Cuba, North Korea. If America has empty shelves, That's a terrible look.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
One more thing before I get to the interview with Jon Tester and his podcast partner in crime, Maritza Giorgio. A little thing about what's going on with Ukraine, and we'll see. Look, I'm timestamping this Wednesday evening. You never know what's going to happen by the time you hear this 12 hours later when this video podcast and audio podcast drops. But
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
It's an old I want to say it's a Groucho Marx expression. I don't know if it is or not, but it's something like if you're inviting me to the party, it must not be good anymore. And it's like now that I'm invited to these things, you don't want to go when you couldn't be invited. You couldn't wait to go. It kind of is the attitude I have.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
It's you know, I know we've said this before, but the idea that the United States of America is essentially taking Russia's asks and making them our asks and strong arming Ukraine here is just it's whiplash. It's really hard to fully wrap your head around that the United States of America is government is essentially pro-Russia right now on this. It's funny how the negotiations are going.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
So one of the sticking points, obviously a big one, is giving up sovereignty, right? And so it's in the idea that Ukraine would have to you know, recognize Russia's sovereignty over Crimea? Well, apparently Donald Trump has said, no, no, no, no. Ukraine doesn't have to recognize Russia's sovereignty over Crimea. It's just the United States that plans to do it.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And as if that somehow that technicality is supposed to be reassuring to the Ukrainians, don't worry, you don't have to recognize that Russia, that Crimea belongs to Russia. Just we will. And the Europeans don't have to do this. Just we will. It's a.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
It's a weird thing to draw a line on and it's a weird distinction because unfortunately or fortunately, however you want to look at it, once the United States does recognize some countries hold on land, other countries usually follow suit. Now, it didn't work with Gulf of America. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
I think the only entity in the world that's going to call it Gulf of America are essentially Ron DeSantis and Donald Trump. But. If we're the ones recognizing Russia's hold on Crimea, a lot of other countries will likely do that, too. So I'm going to... Pause right here. By the way, I got a special treat for you this week. We're going to have an extra pod this week.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And I think it's we've discussed this side of you guys, hopefully. remember the conversation Tara Palmieri and I had about this and just sort of how, how this whole weekend has gotten messed up in, in so many ways. But, uh, it is worth noting that you're gonna see, and so you'll probably see a lot of one source gossip making the rounds over the next 72 hours about this or that.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Well, I'm excited for this set of guests. Joining me now is the former senator from Montana, John Tester, and his podcast co-host, Maritza Giorgio, longtime journalist also from Montana. They both are Montanans. The podcast is called Grounded with John Tester and Maritza Giorgio. Welcome to the podcast, guys.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
So, Senator, let me start with you. All right. How why are you doing a podcast? I say this because there's it is. You don't see a lot of former electeds jumping into this space as as quickly as, say, Marita and I are as former as recovering journalists, whatever we want to call ourselves these days. Right. What's been the what was the interest on your level?
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Marita, what do you like best about it? Right. I mean, I've got, you know, I, I, my whole, the way I evangelize on it is I just was done with the five to 10 minute interview. And, you know, look, John and I have done plenty of those five to 10 minute interviews before. And it's, it's one topic if you're lucky or it's the, then there's always the, Hey, I got to ask this question.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Cause it's in the news. Maybe he'll make news and Chuck Schumer will be pissed off or whatever it is. Right. Like, I know what I enjoy now is the longer conversation where you can have a little bit of that fun, but at the same time, get some context. What's been the most rewarding part of it for you so far?
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Fed Lasso. Look, as a dad over 50, I like a good dad pun.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
But I wanna kick things off today with sort of a bit of a report card for Donald Trump, because the first decent poll, and let me just put this out there, decent poll, meaning for me, it means it's a poll that I'm gonna care about the cross tabs and care about. The Pew Research Center brought out their, they're the first one out of the gates
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
You know, which is hence the Toddcast. So anyway, I'm all for Fed Lasso. I'm in.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Sam Donaldson, also a rancher. Also, yeah, New Mexico.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
The thing that I'm excited about what you two are doing is, you know, my biggest complaint about right now how media is organized is essentially, I would argue, that everybody, you know, thinks of sort of the – the information head sectors is Washington, New York, LA, and San Francisco, right? Silicon Valley, Hollywood, Wall Street, and the political capital.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And there's a lot of people that make a ton of money just off of making sure they're covering those four giant tent poles of culture, right? Whether it's Axios, right? And I say this with, no, good for them. Like it's a good business. But the biggest thing that I think we're missing, Jon Tester,
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
is, and I think why people feel so disconnected from the culture these days, outside of those four temples is, um, is hearing from people from other areas of the country. We don't have enough geographic diversity in the information ecosystem. I'm very hopeful having two Montanans here to help talk to the rest of America.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
I mean, I'm not trying to butter you up here, but I assume that's something you probably hear complaints about all the time from your friends and neighbors.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
I was just going to say, I wanted you to look, you're a product of local news and nationalists. You've been sort of you've had your foot in, you know. How would you describe the state of the local news ecosystem in Montana right now?
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
At least the first legitimate pollster out of the gates with a with a hundred day check in. Yes, we're not quite at 100 days, but they're essentially there. It's coming up and this will be the first of a lot of polls. The big headline is that Donald Trump's already dropped from. At the start of his presidency, they had him at 47%. He's now sitting at 40%. So that's a pretty low approval.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
felt ignored felt like they weren't heard and by the way that's a lot of middle a lot of middle when i say middle it's sometimes middle of the country geographically sometimes it's middle of the ideological spectrum right it's people that that economic class right yeah middle class right the middle is such a you know it it is i do i It is an intentional catch-all word for me when I say middle.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
I'm always thinking, you know, I always joke, I was born and raised in Miami, but my father grew up in Waterloo, Iowa, and I always say I was raised in Iowa. You know, he almost insisted my savings account as a kid, the first savings account I got was at the Waterloo Savings and Loan because my father just wanted me to have this Iowa connection, even though, again,
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
There are a lot of Tods buried in Iowa, but there are not many that still live there today. But it was really important to my dad that I have that Midwestern grounding. So I've always had this belief that, hey, I've got to talk to the middle, right? I've got to talk to the middle of America.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
I've always been very comfortable, frankly, sometimes more comfortable thinking of myself as a Midwesterner, even though I've never been there. And it used to be where all things were decided, elections, policy, and I don't know what happened.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
You know, John Tester, I always used to joke if... that I wanted Congress to rotate where they held sessions. So, you know, first of all, part of it would be like, if you always moved Congress, then the lobbyists would always have to pick up stakes and go move with them. So maybe you could stay a half step ahead of the lobbying community. But the point really was this.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
I always said, if Wichita, Kansas were the media center of the world, I promise you the news media would cover religion and ag issues differently. But because we're in the media capital is New York City, for instance, on the issues of the Second Amendment, I understand where a New York perspective comes from on the Second Amendment.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And I also have an uncle who lives in the mountains of Arkansas who will tell you 30 minutes before a first responder is gonna come to his house and he's gonna have to deal, you know, he needs a firearm for variety of reasons. And where the news media is located can really warp a perspective, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
It's a lower approval rating than any president at this point in time in their term since they've been polling. Bill Clinton was close to being this low. He had a really rough start. He's one of those. His approval rating got better as his first term went along and got stronger going into the second term until he ran into a personal scandal.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
No, I mean, if Congress moved, I mean, I'm dead serious about that. Why should Congress always convene in Washington?
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Not many non-stops from Bozeman in D.C., although, you know, if Taylor Sheridan gets his way and keeps making the place so popular, there might be a lot of non-stops, but that's...
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
No, I mean, it goes to people want to be able to make a living living in New York City and be able to make ends meet, and people want to be able to have the choice to live in Missoula and be able to make their ends meet. I mean, I think that's very fair. I want to move, shift this question a little bit to get to your most recent career.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And frankly, Marisa, I'm curious of your take on this, and I'm going to start with you on this. So one of my theories as to why We are so, you know, sort of the, this is sort of a chicken and egg question. The concentration of power in Washington these days and the concentration of power to the presidency itself. I think this has created this massive trickle down effect.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
So for instance, in our world, Moritz, of journalism, Twenty years ago, my advice to young journalists was go cover state capital, then come to Washington. Ten years ago, my advice to young journalists who wanted to be a White House correspondent or cover Congress was, well, then come to Washington now. There's a lot of trade publications. Get a job at Roll Call. Get a job at Punchbowl.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
So the only person that he's rivaling right now, Donald Trump, that is, with a low first hundred days approval rating is himself, essentially, in 2017. He sat there and had a first lower. A few things about the crosstabs, what you see in this poll. I'm not surprised by the 40.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Get a job at Politico, which is really actually unhealthy. Right. And I'll get to that in a minute. But did you find that that the pull to Washington was really great and that everybody kept in your world kept wanting to figure out how to get east?
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Marita, I don't think we've ever, I say this, national media has never had the trust. Our trust was handed to us by our local colleagues because the local journalist was somebody, if you didn't know the local journalist, maybe your kid knew their kid. Maybe your friend knew their spouse. You knew something about them. And you're like, well, you know, they're one of us.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And they seem to be reporting this. All right. They've confirmed what the national like it was a it really was. And then when you get rid of local, when a man named Craig thought classifieds ought to be free, yada, yada, yada. Donald Trump became president. It is it cut out. I always said national media's best character references.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
I think I predicted – I don't expect him to get north of 45 for the rest of his term barring some unforeseen event that gets people to rally around him because when you look at the crosstabs of this poll – All of the you know, he's he's got still got strong support among his voters, and that's always important. But he's already lost independence and he certainly has lost Democrats.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
John Tester, I had a congressman, now former congressman, his name's Jake LaTurner. This is a Republican from rural Kansas. He was in Kansas' second district. Now, he retired... Thirty six. And he chose to not seek reelection. Part of it is he's not he's a different kind of Republican. OK, he's not. He's more of the Paul Ryan wing of the party, I guess.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
You know, he came up in that version of conservatism is not, as he said, he's he's not a Marjorie Taylor Greene type of Republican. But he he said he didn't have anybody in his congressional district covering what he did. Let literally congressional trees were falling in the district, in his congressional forest.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And no one was there to say, I mean, all he had was just being able to email his constituents or text or whatever he was caught. But there was nobody there to verify what he was doing. Nobody there to say, hey, yeah, you know, explaining what Washington was doing for that district. And we sit here and wonder why people don't know what Washington does for them.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And I would answer because there's no more local journalists telling them what Washington is doing for them. Is this been your experience?
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Let me go to your side of things, though, on the governance side, right? Which is this decision, this concentrate, going back to my focus on the concentration of power, not just in Washington, but with the executive branch itself. Look at this fight over tariffs. Look at this fight over due process when it comes to immigration.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Look at this fight over pretty much all the fights that the Trump administration is picking. And we're sitting here arguing about the checks and balances and it's judiciary right now versus the executive. And we're all screaming in our heads, where the hell is Congress? And I'll be honest, just the 21st century.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
We've had all Republican control of the trifecta for about three years and, you know, post 9-11 and that and that handed a bunch of power to the executive. We had three years with Obama and that handed more power to the executive. We had another two year stint with Trump, more power to the executive. Ditto with Biden, more power to the executive. Now, again, and.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And in fact, this is a number that I find fascinating and an important point here. Trump's job performance among those who did not vote in 2024. We know a lot of people didn't want to vote for either candidate. We heard about it from the voters. So people that self-identified as not voting in 2024. Well, in February, he had an approval rating of 44 percent among those voters.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
All it's done is, I think, made the country think that the presidency is a be all end all fight. And Congress has just given up. What I don't get is collectively why members of Congress are comfortable giving up all this power.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And both being Montanans and knowing each other for a while, they've started a fascinating new podcast that tries to you know, take advantage of the fact that too much of political coverage is based out of DC or New York and not enough everywhere else. Well, they're both based in Montana, different parts of Montana, as you'll learn.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
It's because, you know, I love this anecdote as somebody said to me, well, the reason why Congress was comfortable handing tariff, this tariff power to the president is because Congress, these leaders, the idea stemmed from this, Senator. Well, we'll never, the president, whoever it is, will always be more of a free trader than Congress. Oops.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And by the way, I get it. I would have agreed with that analysis in 2014.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
All right. I want to talk about this campaign finance thing, though, because I just I'll be honest, I'm I don't know if you've or Alex Gibney is doing an episodic series now on dark money for HBO. And I'm going to be interviewing him in a future podcast. And so I was watching the first couple of episodes.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And he and I remember one of the there's a documentary about five years ago that was about dark money in Montana. And and how that it was a Montana was the rare example where there was actually a bipartisan effort to try to at least limit dark money in state races. Federal races is a different story. We'll get to that in state races.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And I'd love for you to share because there's a culture in Montana that goes back. And I kind of think we're sort of repeating this right there. but it was the copper industry and it's the turn of the century, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
19th to 20th century that really, and we may be having a repeat right now with the Broligarcs as we're dealing with now, but what about that era seemed to cement skepticism of money and politics more so in a Montana, frankly, than any other rural state?
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
So a little bit below where he was. But but within a reasonable, this is clear, you know, basically polarized view. Now, among non-voters, 31%. Now, look, you may say, well, who cares about non-voters? But in many ways, they're a leading indicator, right? This is sort of the non-voters usually are also fairly low information, meaning they're just focused on their lives.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
I was not short of cash. We probably spent more than the other guy. We still lost. And not only that, I remember, I don't want to tell tales out of school, but there was a consultant helping you that said, it would be more efficient if we just bought the radio stations. I mean, it was so, and I've sort of like half kidded it. It was like, if it had been legal, you might've done it.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Like, it was like, you guys were gonna violate the law, but it was like, that's how much money Essentially, both sides had available to them. They could have bought the and radio still is is an important aspect of communicating in rural areas.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Yeah. Oh, it is the house that John Tester built without you turning those Senate races into swing stay swing races. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Yeah. Well, but then losing now, you know, we see what happened. You know, come on. You may need to go run again so we could pay for these podcasts there. Yeah. Maritza, I'm curious. I'm going to be honest. I'm numb to money, right? As somebody who's been a political reporter and a political analyst, and I come at campaign finance issues. There's this line that Jeff Goldblum says in Jurassic Park.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
The old man in that movie claims that he's got all the dinosaurs. They're all female. They're not going to breed. Don't worry. They're not going to breed. And Goldblum has this line, life finds a way. Well, the cynic in me says because we've passed every time Congress has tried to pass a campaign finance reform. And I think that with the various versions of it were attempts. All it did was create.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Hello there. It's Chuck Todd. Another episode of the Chuck Todd cast. Got an interesting and fun one for you today. Fun interview with Maritza Giorgio and John Tester. Maritza is a longtime journalist based out of Montana. And she and John Tester started their own podcast earlier this year, as she jokes. They both were looking for work after the election.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
They're not paying a lot of attention to politics. So whatever is seeping into non-voters is super negative, or he wouldn't be sitting at this horrendous 31%. It tells you if he doesn't change course soon, and if the perception of the economy doesn't improve soon, he's gonna look at a job approval rating that's gonna be sitting in, I think I said this before, he's got a floor of about 35%.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
uh, uh, a process to find a loophole, right? Pax, the original Pax post Watergate were supposed to actually be reforms, right? This was a way to sort of, okay, give everybody a little bit of a say within reason you're giving corporations an opportunity, but it's with their employees. Right. And it gets abused. McCain Feingold, right. And instead what McCain Feingold created was all these, uh,
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
lawyers who figured out 501Cs and, you know, threes and fours at the time. Now, of course, it's the 501. I think it's the 501, the C4s that are the the true dark money aspects. So I'm a little bit cynical. Do you think it's possible to get the public animated about campaign? Because I'll tell you, it's one of those issues. So when you when you put it importance, is it a voting issue?
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
It's not a voting issue. Right. It's not voting on this issue. I'm curious what what it would take to get people to vote on the issue.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And so I agree with that. It's always but it's always after. Right. We're angry after the fact. We can't believe you didn't stop this. Well, we tried to tell you, you didn't seem to care.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Look, I've always we got to be we have to think of ourselves first as educators. Marita, I've thought that the thing that I don't fully appreciate is how many people look to the media to learn something, not to be informed, to just simply learn. And we don't do you know, I think about our fellow sports journalists during the college football season, every college football reporter.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
took time to explain the college football playoff every time they wrote about the college football playoff. Do you know what we don't do? We don't explain the Supreme Court and its nine members. And we actually assume too much sometimes of the readers. So what do we do? Become self-selecting.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Those that are informed to read our stories, those that feel like, well, I don't know if I know a lot about it and I don't know that much about it. So it becomes if you're afraid you can't speak the language, you get out. Well, then that we're we're screwing up. We need to speak. I always say we need to speak American.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
It's very hard for any president to drop below 35%. You do usually have a fairly strong base of supporters that can keep you there. But it is he's not in a great place. Basically, the only issue where there's high confidence in his way of doing things is immigration.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Sorry, John, you wanted to jump in.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
I don't get why it is such a hard vote to be for transparency, just disclosure. Like I bet, you know, I look, I believe if we created the NASCAR law, right. Which said, all right, anybody that give, write you a check. I'm for unlimited for members of Congress, but. If you write a check for every $100,000 check you take, you've got to put that name literally on your jumpsuit in every TV ad.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And you've got to... I approve this message, and it was paid for by Maritza Giorgio and Chuck Todd and John Tester and ExxonMobil. And you let the chips fall where they may type of mindset. But disclosure seems to be the easiest first step. And yet that, I mean... I love you know, there's nothing more fun than when Sheldon Whitehouse gets mad. I always say you don't want to make Sheldon mad.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Right. He gets so fired up on this topic. Right. Dark money like I his dark money rants are probably epic. They're some of my favorite rants because he's not wrong. Why is this so difficult in the United States Senate?
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And if you're just judging his immigration policy by our people coming over the border, too many people coming over the border or not. Well, there are plenty of people out there that aren't going to question the methods that their ends justify the means voters. And so they're looking at it and they say, OK, he was going to tighten up the border and he's tightened up the border.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Well, you don't want to tie your, that's always the, yeah, but if we, and it's always, right, each side believes there's, well, we'd love to do that, but they're not going to.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And they get to define what topics you talk about. This is what drives me crazy. You, the candidate have limitations, but some super PACs, can come in here and say, you know what, we're going to make this election about breeding rabbits. And we're just going to put so many ads about breeding rabbits that that's all anybody's going to talk about. It ain't going to be shady sheehy.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
It's going to be, you know, rabid rabbits are running around. And that's the power of these super PACs. They can literally change the dialogue of the conversation in the campaign.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
I have a thesis about members of Congress, John, and I'm curious if you agree with this. I used to compare, you know, there's certain dog breeds that are really well behaved to an owner like a lab. They'll be well behaved. But if they get around other labs, they stop, you know, they ignore their owner and they just start bark, bark, bark that most members of Congress, most senators individually
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
are motivated, you may not agree with the motivate, you may not agree with the ideology, but they're motivated for the right reason in their head. And then there's something about the collective that makes everybody behave stupidly. I mean, is it that simple? I mean, would you, because I always individually, frankly, seems like everybody wants to be reasonable.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Collectively, it becomes unreasonable. Am I oversimplifying?
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
I hear I get that, too. I'm like, why do you why are you so nice to them? Like they are decent people. They're decent humans.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
But that's really about it. Everything else is pretty negative on this front. And it's a it's a tough spot for him to be from. And it explains why he's trying, frankly, so desperately. You know, he's in this trap now with this with this tariff.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
I got to get you to react to Lisa Murkowski. Yeah. I mean, that was such a that was such a Lisa Murkowski thing to say, meaning, you know, she will speak the truth on that side of the aisle in ways that others others won't. Because as I joke, when you can win a write in campaign and your last name is Murkowski, that is the mic drop like. Come at me. Oh, yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
I got everybody to write my name in and it wasn't Smith, brother. OK, Murkowski. So she is a little more shielded politically. But that was chilling what she said, John.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Lisa Murkowski. She's very wary of national media, and I get it. She spends a lot of time with Alaska media. It's not that she just doesn't want to, and I get it, right? What does she get out of it? She'll just get arrows from Trump. I get it.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
plan, in order for his long-term goal to work, he's got to essentially be able to handle a little bit of political pain short-term, and he's got to convince the country that that's worth it. I've gone through this before. He's got ideas that the public wants him to pursue. The execution of those ideas have been a complete disaster.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Marita? a lot of times I get the, Hey, the media needs to do X better. The media needs to do Y better. And my reaction is sort of like, well, tell me what the media is. And I'll tell you, you know, right. Like, you know, the fact is Joe Rogan's a part of the media. What's he doing? Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Why is this only, you know, when they say media, what they really mean is what you and I have done for a living Marisa. Right. Which is quote unquote, traditional media. And yet, you know, I always look at it. It's like, if, If the people we're trying to talk to won't listen to us, that's our, we gotta figure out how to talk. I feel like right now I'm talking to the people that wanna be informed.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And let me ask you this. Do you think I'm very frustrated by the lack of anger over the AP situation by the rest of the press corps? I mean, that the the the thing that bothers me the most is is the lack of support AP has been getting from its brothers and sisters in that press room.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
All right. I want to use our last few minutes here to geek out on Montana's star turn in everybody's TV screens. What do you I'm just curious. Do you hate when people like, you know, us voyeurs of Taylor Sheridan all want to like I mean, I had this conversation with Bullock Tester and. Bullock's like, oh, I love the... He admitted, he goes, he loves going to the set. He loves being invited there.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
What do you make of it? Do you roll your eyes? I grew up in Miami. When Miami Vice happened, I used to roll my eyes a little bit, okay? Because I'd be like... They're kind of glorifying parts of, you know, they're exaggerating this. You know, it wasn't, it isn't all that.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
I've never saw anybody dressed like Crockett or Tubbs on the Miami police force when I was trying to run for the cops back in my youth. But what do you make of the portrayal of Montana by Mr. Sheridan?
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
You know, this is why I believe, and I've said it twice this week, and I'll say it again, the biggest political problem he has is competency or a lack thereof. It's an incompetency issue at the Pentagon. It's an incompetency issue when it comes to how he implemented this tariff thing. And now he's going back and forth. He's now negotiating against himself.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Well, what do you watch? Come on. America wants to know. What is Jon Tester streaming these days?
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
You know, in the ring of honor there, they have Gary Carter, Andre Dawson, and Tim Raines in the Nats ring of honor. Exactly.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Look, the Dodgers broke your heart. Rick Monday, Rick Monday hits the home run. That, that team was loaded from Marty. You had Dawson Carter. Oh my God. Rogers, Steve Rogers, right? Wasn't that the picture? Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
So you're prepared for Canada to be the 51st state, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
It's a pretty violent show.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
First, it's get tough on China, make them come to the table. Now he's already backing away from the sort of those threats. All of that just creates this massive uncertainty. And that's you see this in these poll in these poll numbers. His confidence in the economy is dropping and it is something that is dropping rapidly because this was a core competency of him.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Yeah. Maritza Giorgio, John Tester, the podcast is grounded. I love it. This was a lot of fun. Let's keep doing it.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
All right. Thanks, guys. Well, I hope you enjoy Tester and Giorgio there and go like and subscribe to their podcast. They've had some interesting. In fact, they just had an interesting interview with Chris Van Allen.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Let's just say the Tester Rolodex gets them some interesting bookings and it's definitely worth your time, especially if you're into some because they've been doing some issues that you don't see, like I say, a lot on the East Coast, like public lands. All right. And that was something obviously we talked about. But that's something that to me makes it different.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And it's a perspective literally from another area of the country. All right. Before we go, let's do a little Ask Chuck. Ask Chuck. OK, the music out there, by the way, there's a couple of ways you can ask me questions. You can ask Chuck at the Chuck Todd cast dot com. Send him by email. You can just do something in YouTube comments.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Um, but it allowed for a fascinating conversation on the future of independent media, media, the future of the democracy, the future of the democratic party, given we have John Tester there. So, uh, I think you're going to enjoy the conversation. So I urge you to stick around. Um, But look, I am I'm coming to you middle of the week here.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Do that in the Instagram wherever you're wherever you find the Chuck Todd cast. You, too, can simply ask questions, whether it's in the comments or you send us that email. So let me deal with this first one is from Drew Archer.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And he writes, if you were chair of the DNC or in charge of the Dem Party's messaging writ large, what are three to five things you'd be doing to help the D brand in general go hippos? Obviously, a GW person. This is a bit of an inside joke with him. I think he's a repeat questioner. I think he just enjoys me saying the words hippos.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Look, I you know, the problem with me is that I'm not a Democrat. And so what and what a lot of times when people give you their opinions, it's always about what would appeal to me. It's always it's always funny to me when I see former Republicans like my friends over at the bulwark. Bill Kristol will say the Democrats should be doing this on messaging. And I'm like, I don't.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
I don't know if the Democrats are going to listen to, you know, Dan Quayle's former chief of staff for for messaging advice. And now what Bill Kristol is really saying is here's what would appeal to me and my sort of centrist leanings. And I think about that myself. Is that, you know, am I giving you advice that would appeal to me or what? I think.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
But if I were in charge, if you have a brand that is that is damaged and right now the Democratic Party's brand is damaged, what you really need to do is you need to convince people that it is not a bad brand. Right. So and at the same time, you've got to convince people.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
those, because it's interesting in this poll that I referenced at the top of the podcast, you know, Democrats are definitely the ones that are more negative right now in Democrats, right? Republicans feeling more good about being Republican, you know, winning does that, right? Losing elections makes you sour in your party.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Winning elections makes you more optimistic about your chosen political party. So a little bit of that, you know, it's interesting to me that Democrats haven't tried being a 50 state party in a legitimate way in 20 years, not since Howard Dean did it. And I think they need to go on their own listening tour, if you will, and talk to, and I'd almost make an intentional effort.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
This is why voters who were reluctant to support him went ahead and did it because they said, you know what, his economy was better than Biden's economy. And that's what they remember. And if he doesn't figure out, and so he's sitting there now trying to manage the perception of the economy as if it's a political problem, right? So, oh my God, I need the markets to take off.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
You know, if you were, if you were, if people stopped drinking Coca-Cola, you'd want to talk to the people who stopped drinking Coca-Cola to find out why they stopped drinking Coca-Cola. So, you know, go find former Democrats and, And talk to them. Don't just wait for reporters like me to go talk to them or look or look at polling data. Spend real time and talk to them.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Do an entire town hall of people that left the Democratic Party in the last five years. Finding these people is very easy. You just got to ask. You just got to you know, that's how you use your polling to go find those folks and go have some some listening, you know, and go to all 50 states and do this in all 50 states.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And then you go back and start a brand ID campaign of, you know, what does the party stand for and what doesn't it stand for? You know, I do think you can come up with messaging that appeases a centrist Democrat and a progressive Democrat. Right. You know, you look at You know, to me, one of the most important phrases that we have in our founding documents is a more perfect union, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
More perfect union. Because it implies we know we're not perfect and perhaps we're never going to get to perfect, but we're always trying to make the union more perfect, closer to perfect.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
So the Democrats need to find their own branding that essentially is able to say, look, the Democratic Party wants to be the party of the future, the party of today and tomorrow, et cetera, that you're always looking forward, that you're future oriented. So that means you need to be younger. There's definitely needs to be an attempt to be younger.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
But you also need to you know, sometimes you can get younger, not generationally, but in behavior. You need to be more modern, you know, more. And I think the Republicans in many ways got they came across as the more in touch party because they were they certainly were more modern when it came to communicating and where to communicate.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
So, you know, I do think that they ought to tackle it in the same way. A McDonald's wants to find out why people aren't going to McDonald's anymore. Maybe they need to offer different things. You know, that's the type of research. And they've done this before. I mean, that's the irony. They went through this in the 90s. They kind of went through this a little bit in the mid aughts.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And each time it produced a successful two term president. Right. With Bill Clinton and then with with Barack Obama. So but they do need to you have to acknowledge that you've failed. And right now, our politics and our media infrastructure punishes anybody that admits failure and makes it impossible to sort of show humility without humiliation. And I think that's what keeps.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
good people from being more honest with you. I mean, it's very frustrating to me. It's so clear. Elected officials are just look at any Democrat or Republican. Most most of them are Lying's a strong word, but are constantly telling you what you what they think you want to hear rather than being honest about the situation as it is.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And it's because they don't want that honesty weaponized against them. And so when you have a media ecosystem that does that makes it that much harder to. And a moment like this, right, where I think the Republican Party needs to admit that, hey, Donald Trump needs to admit he's getting some things wrong. But, you know, never apologize, never apologize, never apologize.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And I think Democrats now think they have to emulate that behavior, which I think is a huge, huge mistake. Anyway, so I hope that helped. Next question. Tom D. from Philadelphia. Go birds. He wrote that. It ain't coming from me, damn it. And he writes this.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Okay, I'm not firing Powell. I never even thought of firing Powell. All right, let's send the message. Let's have the treasury secretary send the message that, hey, we know we gotta cut a deal with China. We know this is unsustainable. All of that is designed to send positive vibes to the big investors.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
One of the things that is frequently mentioned about the 1976 election is that if Election Day was one week later, Gerald Ford would have won that election. Similarly, I've long believed that if Election Day in 2016 was one week earlier, Hillary Clinton would have held back Donald Trump and won. Obviously, we will never know the answer.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
But as a big fan of your historical alternate history shows, if you go back in my archives, NBC still has them up. You can go see them. I do this in December every year, done it three or four years now. Tom would like to know what says me about both 76 and 16. Well, look, I mean, I think I know a lot about the 76 election.
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The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
My my first mentor in politics was a gentleman named Doug Bailey, a longtime Republican consultant. And he was a co-founder of the of the hotline, which was where I cut my teeth on political journalism for 15 years. Doug was the leading media consultant on that Ford campaign. Dick Cheney, by the way, was the chief of staff in the White House. And I think Jim Baker was among the chief strategists.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
So it was literally the Republican establishment of that era. And when you lose by a point, Doug Bailey had a couple of theories as to why they lost. Number one, and when you lose by one percentage point, you can blame a whole bunch of folks. But it's interesting you talk about the quote one week later.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Doug believes the most damaging thing that happened was a Gallup poll came out the weekend of that, the weekend before Election Day that showed Ford ahead of Carter for the first time all year. And it was like this shock. Oh, wow. And he'd been creeping up. What happened was Ford started out way behind. As you might expect, you're Richard Nixon's vice president.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Richard Nixon was unpopular that Watergate was very unpopular. And Jimmy Carter's entire campaign was premised on. I will not tell a lie. And basically, I'm I'm I'm a much more moral. I'm going to have high character in the White House after we just had that low character incident. So he was essentially running against Nixon.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Well, what Doug came up with in his ad campaign were these man on the street interviews going, you know, what do you know about Jimmy Carter? And it was just it was the first time these were used really effectively. Now you see him all the time. But this was groundbreaking at the time. It was just, quote unquote, man and women on the street interviews. What do you know about Jimmy Carter?
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And it was more like, do you do you think he can handle the job? It was it was playing to the idea that people didn't know a lot about Carter. They just knew who he wasn't. They knew the top lines, but they didn't know a lot about, can he handle the Cold War? Can he do this? And the whole idea was Gerald Ford. He's a man that's been tested. He can handle the big problems. He's been doing the job.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
But that doesn't, you know, this is, you don't have companies sitting there going, oh, I feel certain this is what the policy is going to be. So maybe I will start to think about how to rebuild my supply chain with an America first mindset. But when you see the president get tough, back off, get tough, change his mind, do this on a whim, do that on a whim, that's not certainty.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
He kept the country afloat after that horrible scandal with Watergate. So they were trying to raise questions. And this ad campaign was working. It was raising doubt. It was sort of bringing independence and Republicans home for Ford. And that poll comes out on, I think it was a Saturday night, shows Ford ahead by a point. Doug went to his grave.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
He is now deceased, believing that had that poll showed Carter up by a point and not Ford as a point, that Ford ends up winning because he thinks that the minute voters realized Ford could win, it was like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. We just didn't want Carter to get a mandate. We were not wanting to reward Ford with another term like that. We still need to punish the Republicans for Nixon.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
So that was his theory. Although he will also say when you lose by a point, there's a lot of things you can blame. And he thinks the other the most damaging thing in the fall campaign to Gerald Ford was Bob Dole's performance in the VP debate. It was the first ever televised VP debate in history, by the way.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
In that VP debate, he infamously blamed said called all of the wars of the 20th century Democrat wars. Now, he's trying to mostly saying, you know, it's Democrats that got got us involved with Vietnam. That's unpopular. And he was saying, you know, basically, a Democrat was in the White House at the start of World War One. A Democrat was in the White House at the start of World War Two.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
A Democrat was in the White House start of Korea. Well, let's just say that that is not how the country viewed it. And frankly, there were a lot of military veterans who didn't see it as a Democratic war or Republican war. But certainly World War I and World War II were sort of brought to us more than war of choices. Korea and Vietnam, you can make a different calculation on that.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
But it blew up in Dole's face. It backfired. And so that's always something that Doug's also put to the test on that one. As for your Hillary Clinton projection, we, you know, look, if that election is 10 days earlier, it's before the that infamous laptop of Anthony Weiner, who at the time was married to one of Hillary Clinton's closest advisers, Huma Abedin.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Laptop had more emails on it, but it turned out it was the same emails. But Jim Comey comes out, who's then head of the FBI and implies that the investigation is back on the weekend before. Well, look, when you have that small of a margin in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, it's hard not to imagine that.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Look, there's a lot of people in the world of George W. Bush who believe of the DUI story, which came out the weekend before the election doesn't come out. Bush wins the popular vote and carries the election, you know, with a bit more of a comfortable margin than he ended up winning in the losing the popular vote.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And of course, winning winning the Electoral College with a with a controversial court decision about the recount in the state of Florida. So, yeah. You're right. Timing is everything in politics. And that's why I love me a good butterfly effect, because when you study a butterfly effect on history, it actually allows you to understand why things ended up the way they did. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
The butterfly effect, you wonder, boy, what if this didn't happen? And it allows you to understand actually better what was going on in the moment that these events were taking place. So Enjoyed that question. Appreciate the plug on that. And remember, again, Ask Chuck at thechuckpodcast.com or simply drop any questions you'd like me to address.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And I'll just address the ones I want to, not the ones you really, really, really think I should. And I certainly, you know, I'll answer a troll's question if the troll actually asks a good and fair question. So. I'll even let you guys in on that as well. So with that, appreciate you listening in. And again, be on the lookout for a bonus episode later this week that's going to be dropping.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And until then, I'll see you on the other side until we upload again.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And at this point you figure out, all right, I think we're just gonna stay paralyzed and see if we can make it through this term and then worry about certainty down the road. So look, I think this is the trapeze end. In order to accomplish what he wants to accomplish with trade,
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
If it's really about bringing manufacturing to America, then he's got to be able to sustain essentially a rough transition. But he doesn't have – he knows he doesn't really have the political capital to do that and somehow convince Congress to pass his tax cut and somehow to do these other things. So he's in a tough spot. The voters are noticing.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And like I said, to me, the real canary in the coal mine is how non-voters perceive him. That doesn't mean those people are going to show up to the polls. but what it tells you is what has made it through to low information voters, to people that aren't tuning in. Low information doesn't mean, by the way, you hear expressions like that, that doesn't mean dumb voters or anything.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
It means busy people, okay? Low information about politics, sometimes following politics is a luxury. Trust me, I know this and I appreciate you downloading and listening and maintaining. By the way, like and subscribe, tell all your friends to like and subscribe. Did I tell you about liking and subscribing?
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
But it just, what it tells me is people that are living their own lives, what they're hearing, what they're feeling and what they're seeing is not good. Like I said, that 31%, that sort of, I'd look at it as sort of, that's the worst case scenario. Like I said, I still think his base is in a place that would keep him at least in the mid thirties, but he's in a tough spot.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
But there's one more wrinkle to this poll that I think is quite important. And that wrinkle is which party has a higher favorable rating right now, the Republican Party or the Democratic Party? Now, I just gave you a litany of things. Donald Trump, everything he's touching has a majority of voters not liking what he's doing, even, frankly, on immigration, although that's basically 50-50.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Washington is beginning this weird situation over the next 72 hours. It's becomes it's some people call it nerd prom. It's White House Correspondents Weekend. There's all sorts of people coming to town, all sorts of entities throwing parties. So one thing is for sure, gossip will be sort of lots of gossip out there. But I'm not here to tell you about the White House correspondents gossip.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
But on everything else, people think the cuts are too much, too willy-nilly, the Doge cuts. They don't like his foreign policy. This is a, you know... The country is still more in favor of Ukraine than Russia, unlike where the president is sitting right now on trying to strong arm Ukraine. His economic policies are unpopular. So you'd think this would bleed into the Republican Party. It doesn't.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
The Republican Party still now has a higher favorable rating than the Democratic Party. So all of this disaster that has really been and this is arguably as bad of a first hundred days. Bill Clinton had a pretty bad first hundred days. But this is a much worse first hundred days because it was self-inflicted. Bill Clinton had a plan. The plan didn't go well.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
this doesn't feel like this team had a plan. They had a plan when it came to cutting the government. They had a plan when it came to going after the, you know, doing the grievance thing, going after the law firms, going after the universities, trying to go after the media. So they had all these sort of what I'd call retribution plans. But to actually run the country,
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
outside of Homeland Security and the border, that doesn't look like they really know what they're doing at the Pentagon, at the State Department. I mean, the way they cut AID was a mess.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Nobody is saying that these things, and this is, so this is the fascinating thing here that I think plays itself into this, the poll results of the two parties, is that for as unhappy and as chaotic, you know, unhappy people are of Trump's chaos, It's not as if this is yet accruing to the benefit of the Democratic Party. Right now, this is anti-Trump.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
It's not yet anti-conservative or anti-Republican. Because the ideas, right? These ideas, the public is still in favor of. Making government smaller and efficient, that is a goal that has majority support. but the public doesn't like the execution.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
When it comes to even on the due process issues, which there is large majorities of the public, by the way, even 75% of Republicans say Donald Trump should follow any sort of Supreme Court order. So that was also a fascinating finding in this poll that everybody seems, it's almost universal agreement that if the Supreme Court makes a ruling, Donald Trump ought to follow it and better follow it.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Pure and simple. So, look, this is a pretty bad report card for Donald Trump. But the most fascinating takeaway I had, and in fact, it looks like it could get worse for him. But so far, this is becoming a bigger problem for Donald Trump, and it's not yet accruing to the Democrats. And I think part of it is the Democrats still have an identity crisis, right? What are they for?
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
What do they represent? Where are they in these things? It's clear that Donald Trump doesn't know how to manage the government. If you didn't... If you didn't get that idea in the first term, you're now getting a huge reminder here in the second term. I mean, it's fascinating to me to see Ken Griffin, one of the most respected politicians
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
respected Wall Street investors that there is, who's a big Republican, very supportive, generically so, of Republican causes and has been a on-again, off-again supporter of Trump. I mean, he supports Trump because he's the head of the Republican Party and Ken Griffin doesn't want to support the Democratic Party.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
But the fact that he is essentially just eviscerated Trump's tariff policy and has said that this is now making companies focus more on supply chains than growth is
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
You know that, you know, and he's sitting there publicly warning about tarnishing, you know, in the conversation with Mark Zandi, we talked about this tarnishing that the country's reputation to a point where even our debt is no longer considered worth investing in. You know, there was nobody else's debt that was better to invest in than the United States of America.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And if we're now creating uncertainty in that world where big sovereign funds whether it's the Saudis or whoever, are a little bit nervous investing in U.S. Treasury bonds. That's a big problem, not a small one, a big one. But again,
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Democrats shouldn't feel really good about this poll because they need to realize a lot of voters there have a lot of concerns about the party, don't see them yet as a viable alternative. And that's something that that Democrats have to work on. You know, this is a public that wants to see government get closer to the people and be more efficient.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
I'll just tell you this about the dinner. The older I get, the less interested I am in the dinner. Of course, when you're young and new to Washington, you can't wait to get invited to these parties and you're always trying to sneak in. And then, of course, you hit a certain age that that literally it's like the old I think it's a I think it's an old tradition.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Can they promise that this is a country that does want tighter borders? We've we've always been you know, it's interesting. I don't think America is a nativist country, but we're a bit we're a bit nationalist. Right. Where we are. We are sort of we want it's not necessarily American first. Right. But we want to be American. We want to make sure we're the we're a little bit ahead of everybody.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Right. It's this weird line. So I think that in some cases, that's why they the ideas that Trump throws out there are ones that the public. Well, all right. If he could do that, that would be good. But his inability to execute is clearly his Achilles heel.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
And the question is, at what point do congressional Republicans realize that Trump's taken them down, right, that this is going to drag them down and drag them down? And if he continues to try to manage the stock market like a political problem, all right, let's see if I can goose the markets this way, all because he thinks he can deal with the markets as a news cycle.
The Chuck ToddCast
The Decline Of Local Journalism + Money Is Corrupting Politics
Well, as you learned from Mark Zandi, you know, unless these tariff deals start coming in and there's not one yet. Right. There's there is, I guess, a concept of a memo of understanding with India. There's a concept of an idea of a plan with Japan. But he needs some points on the board and he needs points on the board quickly. Ironically, the market's desperate for it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Oh, it's a worthy sub. And before we get into some details, let's say, because I had a really fascinating moment with my son. He's gonna go to college in Dallas. He's going to SMU. And when we were looking at the school, I realized I had never gone to the Texas School Book Depository. I'd never gone to the Grassy Knoll. And if you haven't, it's unbelievable. I will be honest with you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
It made certain things in my mind clearer. But what was really interesting, Jeff, was my son's reaction. to the, just simply the reenactments, right? When you go into that Texas School Book Depository, it's all about the reenactment and they just are constantly, you can't go anywhere without them showing you the motorcade. And his first question, what do you think it is?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
It seems like it's, you know, and there's lots of reasons for it, right? The government didn't do, in many ways, weapons of mass destruction, right? That was a moment of government distrust, making people question whether they can believe their leaders. You had, frankly, the fact that government didn't send anybody to jail after the Great Recession, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
when he watches the reenactment, he goes, why didn't he shoot him there? Why did he wait till he, and I said, son, welcome to the conspiracy. I said, there you go. I said, you know, that is arguably probably how the beginning, I've always thought like, how did the mind go there for anybody? Well, when you start to look at the choices he made to, why didn't you shoot there? Why did you wait here?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Now, look, there's a plausible explanation. Maybe he couldn't look JFK in the eye, right? In his scope. It's very like, you know, that's a possibility, right? Maybe he could, you know, but it was really just to see it in the eyes of a sort of newly forming adult as they're processing information about him.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Well, there was a necessity at the time to wrap it up, right? You know, I watched this movie recently because I had never seen it before. It's a government propaganda movie to the world. What is it? The drums... You may know what I'm referring to that essentially tries to explain to the world what happened to JFK. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
You know, no, no, we didn't wasn't domestic politics that killed him, you know, but it was just sort of and they paper over everything and they just sort of sell it. I think it's called the banging the drum or the drums of I can't remember the title.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
What is your scholarship? What books were the best informer in your head? You know, you've read a lot of them, but in time, if you were to tell my son who's 18 and you want to know more, where would you tell him to begin? What books would you tell him to read?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Here was this massive, essentially, destruction of the American economy, all to make extra money on bad mortgages. And no one went to jail for this. I think that has added to this distrust that people have out there of government with the press. I think that we've had a few a few of these moments.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
I think the fact that major the major media seem to go along with the Iraq war and the weapons of mass destruction narrative is. I think really did hurt the image of the accountability press corps, if you will, for a lot of folks. I know some people will bring up the current, how Biden was covered or how Trump was covered, but I think in many ways, the reason it is easy
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
So let me, I want to try to tackle this before we get to sort of the most recent releases and what you're looking for in the next set of releases and what Tulsi Gabbard just announced. And I'm curious what you think that is. But before we get to that, For me, I feel like the thread that matters the most is obviously Oswald, right? And the sort of tracing Oswald's path.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
And the hardest, the thing that has always been hard to wrap my head around is how did the United States government allow a Marine to go to Russia and then come back pretty quickly and and get in back into polite society, right? Like ultimately, like if you know nothing else, that's an agreed upon fact, right? The Warren Commission, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
We know Oswald went to Russia, worked in renounced citizenship, then comes back. All this happens in the middle of Gary Powers too. There's all sorts of, you're just sitting there going, what is this? Obviously, Oswald, you know, look, I have my own theory, right, of what Oswald could have been. Was he a CIA asset that went rogue?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
And they've, you know, I've always thought like one of the CIA's paranoias is like, we didn't do it, but my God, they think we, they're going to think we did. So we've got to distance ourselves from Oswald, right? There's all sorts of, but ultimately Oswald is the trying to understand how did Oswald not end up in jail in America for going to Russia and coming back?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
And why was this so easily allowed? Am I wrong that this is not a lame thread?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
When you say you've assembled the file, you mean you've taken all the various releases over the years and put it into a file, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
to beat up the press corps on this stuff really does go back to the, at least in this century, to the Iraq war. But when it comes to government distrust and this ability to sell a conspiracy theory, whether it's Russia, and when I say the conspiracy theory on Russia, I mean whether you're on the left side of the aisle or the right side of the aisle, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Just simply nobody wants to believe a lone nut does something like this, right? How do you, how do you account for that in your own, in your own research? Do you know what I mean? Like you, you constantly, cause you're pretty good about this, but you're constantly, you got to Well, you know, what if everybody wants to believe it because they don't want to believe the alternative?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Well, but let's also take people back. I mean, I think sometimes what makes people skeptical that there's a conspiracy is, well, the United States doesn't behave that way now. Well, that's true. But the CIA of the 50s, You know, I one of my theories as to why the CIA constantly convinces presidents not to follow the law.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
OK, like whatever happens in that room, you know, that that that, you know, the the CIA's history in the 1950s, particularly in Latin America, is atrocious. It's embarrassing. It's awful. It's so many things. And that if you unravel it, it could actually, you know, my guess is that the CIA directors go to these presidents and say, you don't understand.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
If we go down this road, all of a sudden, we're going to find out every coup we were involved with, every, you know, assassination we were actually, you know, that there's this fear of not Oswald and anything with Kennedy related, the fear that it exposes all the bad operations of the 50s of the CIA. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Each believes in their own version of a conspiracy that has to do with Russia, Putin, and Trump. But the fact that there are so many willing subscribers to these theories, again, whether you believe he is a part of this or whether you believe it was manufactured in order to frame Trump, it is easy for many people to believe that there is some deep state out there. And why is that? Well,
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Oh, yeah. Now, there's no doubt that there's been an effort by the CIA to cover up its relationship with Oswald, right? And the question is why?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
So let's go to the releases, OK, because the most recent there was two laws passed. One, there was a chunk of everything should have been released in 2017. And Trump doesn't do it right. What did he hold off on releasing the first time?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
We're going a little bit long and a little bit less on the news, although it is something that's been in the news over the last couple of weeks. And that is The release of new files about the JFK assassination, more importantly about what the government did or did not know about Lee Harvey Oswald before he ended up becoming the chief suspect and assassin of John F. Kennedy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
And so that brought- But he also signed an executive order that seemed to try to no more or something, right? What was, explain that part of it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
I think it goes all the way back to the core sort of moment where the public realized the government didn't tell them everything that they know. And that is on JFK and what happened to JFK and everything. The fact is, I certainly am somebody that believes Oswald did it. The question is, what did the CIA know about Oswald? And how did this guy go back and forth to the Soviet Union so easily?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
It's a board, right? It's a board that oversees this. Who is it?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
But they showed him something. There's no doubt in my mind. They, you know, Trump, you've got to, to make him change his mind, you've got to show him a fear of something. So that's what, like, what is it that Pompeo showed him? But anyway.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
And I don't really... He usually blurts it out anyway, right? Like, the guy's a terrible... You never tell Trump a secret. He'll eventually tell everybody. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
We're taping, just to timestamp this, you said, yeah, I'm fine. We're taping on Friday, April 11th. So in this case, on April 10th. Anyway, go ahead.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
By the way, some of this is the same memo, same documents, just with less blacked out stuff, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
They don't know how to unredact it, is what you said.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
It's always been, for me, the core of the – did the American government just really let that happen willy-nilly? Did the Russian government, Soviet government really – how did that all happen? It's always been a huge curiosity. And the fact that –
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
We've had to drag the truth, drag transparency out of the government one FOIA request at a time or use a movie that, frankly, warped all the conspiracy theory narratives. I mean, I'll be honest with you. I think Oliver Stone, he did more to damage, I think, the belief in that conspiracy theory because he he didn't he didn't believe in one. He took his movie and made it a compendium of all of them.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Of course, he was a Soviet citizen and then defected and then came back. Of course he's a person of interest, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
The CYA. This was a CYA moment for the FBI to use some jargon, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
And let's go back again. I want to go back into time because people need to understand this. The CIA and the FBI weren't exactly pals. There's a bit of a there's distrust between those two agencies. Correct. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Like the CIA goes, we don't want you sniffing around our guy. Because look, whatever Oswald is, it's pretty clear to me he's a CIA asset. The question is, is he a rogue CIA asset or not? And I, you know, but if you told me that the CIA didn't want the FBI sniffing around their guy, that makes sense, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
And some of them were just sort of cuckoo. It was a fun movie. But some of the theories he laid out there, there were very small threads to them. But the movie did at least get Congress to act to come up with a law that demanded even more release of records. And the fact of the matter is the CIA's behavior in the 50s and 60s around the globe is not something America likes to brag about. And.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
All right, this is where I want to interject something you and I worked on for a bit. And look, I just, you know, my bosses at NBC just decided it was not worth my time, our time to go down this hole. They didn't, I really believe that. I know that was the motivation for what it's worth.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
But what we were focused on and what you came to me with was the fact that there were people that attended the Lee Harvey Oswald arraignment in New Orleans after he's arrested for handing out the flyers. And an NBC affiliate happened to cover this. And so you came to me trying to say, what could we uncover? And we worked on this for a while.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
But take me back to that moment, because you had identified there was a photo, I think, of the newspaper, or you were able to find a clip. The clip lives on YouTube, I think, right, of the New Orleans station, correct? Yes.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Welcome to a special episode of the Chuck Toddcast. Why am I calling it a special episode? Is it a very special episode of Blossom? No, I'm kidding. Sorry, I'm showing my age here. But when we used to say, when you ever heard the phrase, a very special episode, it usually was Blossom for whatever reason. But this one's a special episode.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
I've always had a theory that the reason why there's been such hesitance with both President Trump and President Biden, who both got talked out of releasing everything, even though the law stated that they had to. Why did they get talked out of it? My thesis has always been that if you pull the thread on what the CIA knew about Oswald pre-assassination.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
He didn't follow through, right? He didn't follow through in the Bay of Pigs.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
He didn't- By the way, let me interject here. I grew up in Miami. This is why the Cuban community is Republican. This is the reason, this is the roots. If you're wondering how it all began, the roots of it are Bay of Pigs. Anyway, go ahead, Jeff.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
They just blame the Democrat because, you know, Bay of Pigs was an Eisenhower approved operation.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
He sort of, he used that almost more as a setting because New Orleans is just a great city to set things into.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
that it unravels all sorts of things in Latin America. And that really, Oswald was somebody that they were likely using as an asset to monitor things. They had perhaps, these guys had no idea this guy was capable of doing what he did. And my thesis has always been the coverup had to do with, oh my God, they're gonna think the CIA was involved with this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Let me ask you about another treasure trove of information that we, you know, one of my favorite dramatized, you know, to me, it's not quite a documentary. It's historical, I think, dramatic fiction. I guess you'd call it, which is Chernobyl, right? And Chernobyl was able to be done because there was a treasure trove of information finally released by the Ukrainian government, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
The democracy movement. And so there was a period of time, right? After the fall of the Soviet Union, where there was some information that was available.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
What did the Russians in that period of transparent, somewhat transparency in the, basically from about 93 to 99, right, before Putin gets in, maybe a year or two after, before Putin truly clamped down, was much ever released or gleaned from old Soviet files when it comes to sort of Oswald's presence in the Soviet Union?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
And we have to assume an American, a Marine decides to defect. I'm guessing the Russian intelligence agencies didn't trust that guy any more than our agencies would trust a Soviet defector who then comes back to the United States. Right. He I would assume he was on a higher level of surveillance than most defectors.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
But whatever is the reason, here's what is true. You're not being told the truth. Our government has not been transparent about this. We have had to pull teeth.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Just like dudes hanging out, right? Young guys hanging out. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
So let's go back to now. One of the more interesting things that on the week on April, I think it was April 10th, that the DNI had Tulsi Gabbard implied in her new release of saying there's more files is this idea that more files were found. JFK files were found. what, you know, do you have a sense of what that could be?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
And it is governments, you know, when elected officials complain to me about the ease with which conspiracy theories are sold to the American public, my response is, well, if you were fully transparent about this one, this one, this to me, I mean, think about it. Today's baby boomers, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Do you have a theory of what was, you know, that stuff that had never been delivered to the archives?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Well, she was implying on JFK files that there was more on that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
So we just spent nearly an hour just on one threat, which is Oswald. Yeah. The others, the second most intriguing thread, obviously when it comes to the JFK assassination is Jack Ruby. Yeah. Um, And I've always noticed your work has always been primarily focused on Oswald and the CIA and the pre-time. How much time have you spent on Ruby? How much is missing on him?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
What more would you love to know about him that you think's in an archive but you don't have?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
This is sort of the core, this is sort of the core first moment where that in Vietnam of when they sort of lost their trust virginity, if you will, with the American public. I think the inability of the government to tell the truth on JFK and Vietnam in that period of time
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
To Ruby, we think, or we don't know?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Let me ask, let me present a scenario and tell me how inconclusive this would feel to you. If the CIA finally admits that, look, Oswald was an asset. We covered up our relationship with him because we were paranoid that everybody would assume we were involved when we really weren't involved. Turned out this guy was more rogue than we thought. We messed up. We're sorry.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Now, if that is the story, would you ever believe it?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
What would be the various motivations for the CIA to cover up their relationship with Oswald? One is they were involved. OK, right. One is they fear that they would be blamed for it. Right. Like that would be my other that would to me be the other most plausible scenario.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
essentially planted the seeds that have allowed plenty of politicians to exploit the belief in a deep state or government conspiracies, which I'll be honest with you, I think are just much harder to actually perpetrate today. We have too much transparency in many ways, too many government is too big to sort of keep a secret, right? I think there's just impossible to do that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
And then the other theory could be what if both things are true? Oswald did it and he was part of a conspiracy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
And then, you know, I think the evidence for that the president was hit by gunfire from two different directions, I think that evidence goes medically- All right, now I will, I hear you there, but I'll tell you something that I found fascinating when I finally visited the grassy knoll myself, is that you do realize that there could be echoes.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
So if you told me eyewitnesses thought they heard something, it was more of a canyon-like feel than I expected. So the possibility of echoes where you think, and we know this in eyewitness accounts, people swear, oh, I think I heard guns from here and here and here, and what they really heard was the echo of the gunfire, and they're not used to hearing gunfire.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
What new technology would you love to see applied to some of the evidence that still exists?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
But the 50s and 60s version of this government was a bit more covert and clandestine. And it is possible that there are things that operatives convince elected leaders, hey, you don't want to open up this can of worms. It will only create problems diplomatically for the United States for decades if you do it. That's my thesis as to why we're still sitting here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
I was thinking more on the DNA front, but anyway.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
I was just going to say, how do you check yourself? How do you, you know, I worry about this confirmation bias, right? I worry about it with myself all the time. And I think if you do worry about it, you probably are pretty good at least about seeing alternative explanations. How do you deal with that? How do you force your mind to You have a conclusion, but how do you avoid confirmation bias?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Well, every story is... Are you on a side? Are you on the conspiracy side or the, you know, non-conspiracy side? And it's like, you know, I live in both worlds on this issue, which is like, I do like, I'm sort of like, well, the CIA is not telling the truth that I know. I don't know anything else yet.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Yes, it was. Boy, how was that, man? Did it scare the crap out of you?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
clamoring for more information and feeling as if we still don't have the full story. And guess what? We still don't have the full story. I have a theory. Jeff Morley has a theory. So may you. So but ultimately, when you think about the ease with which politicians can exploit government distrust to make you believe the government might be behind something.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
We're right. We're at an hour. Good luck.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
You know, that's the problem with the Trump era. Everything when Trump does something, you know, the thing is, is not everything Trump touches is wrong. Not everything Trump does, you know, is maybe how he does it is wrong. But the result might be what what the correct answer. You just don't know just because Trump touches it doesn't make it toxic. Although for some people it does, you know.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Now, we know why he wants, he's trying to exploit, right? Because if there's a conspiracy on Kennedy, then guess what? There's a conspiracy to get me. Right. Like we know what he conclusion he's trying to draw with his followers. And that's the thing. It's like, you know, stop trying to glom onto that, buddy. But but that doesn't mean the release isn't useful for historical researchers.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
On that front, my guest is Jeff Morley. He is the man behind JFK Facts.com. If you are familiar with his name, it's I'm guessing because you're already a subscriber to him on Substack. But he's been you know, he tries to he certainly has his own theory on the conspiracy. And the two of us disagree on where this is headed.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
So I think- Unfortunately, yeah. I think about that. But you can't let that get in the way of the work, you know? And I, look, I get, I mean, and, you know, are you concerned that you're being manipulated by the government with the release? Are we, you know, I get concerned about Tulsi. I don't, look, I don't, she's, you know, she hasn't proved to me that she's an open, honest broker.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
From Tampa or the central Florida.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Hey, she took on her own party over maternity leave. I mean, you know, like. No, no, no. She's got a spine.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
It's government's fault themselves for why it's so easy to do this, because they haven't been. And this is Democrats and Republicans. They haven't been forthcoming and transparent on one story that everybody in America knows a little something about. So with that, I'll sneak in a break.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Well, I, I, you know, I'm a, obviously I know you, I trust you. The one thing you are is you're, you, you, you obsess on finding data to back up conclusions, you know, and, you know, people may disagree with where you're headed, but you're always looking for facts first. And I think that's important. There's not a lot of the conspiracy theory authors do that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
It is, and I'm so glad I got those book recommendations out of you. I know some people, and that's the way they should. And frankly, you should also read up on the CIA in the 50s and the Dulles brothers, because you've got to understand the environment in that moment and the relationship that the CIA had and didn't have with our government and how rogue it is.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
It was a young, precocious agency still. back then. And people forget, you know, and, and, and look, it took till Carter and Stansfield Turner, frankly, to truly begin the reform effort there. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
No, I have a feeling that that's, it's really going to fill in the blanks about the CIA in the 50s, which is something that I think, look, it's not, it's an ugly, I think it's an ugly stain on America. And and, you know, our relationship with Latin America to this day continues to be to that hangs in the air. Yeah, we don't realize it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
But you talk to Central Americans of a certain generation and that stuff's still fresh. You know, South Americans and Central America, very fresh in their history. Yeah. Jeff, thank you for doing this, my friend.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Join my conversation with Jeff Moreland on what we learn from the new files just released by the Trump administration. And joining me now is Jeff Morley. I have known Jeff some 30 years. I knew him when he was at the Washington Post and he has been on the JFK story for a long time. And I think, Jeff, I would love for you to sort of.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
We will. I have a feeling. Next release. Awesome. Thanks, brother. Well, I hope you enjoy. Many of you are going to be listening to this throughout the holiday weekend. It's been a lot of faiths this week are celebrating holidays from Passover to Easter. I hope everybody travels safely, enjoys time with their family.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
and frankly is able to, other than telling your friends and family about the great new Chuck Toddcast that you have to listen to, other than that, that you park politics on the side and instead enjoy time with your family. With that, I'll see you on the next episode of the Chuck Toddcast until we upload again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
tell your origin story of sort of how you, because JFK facts is, I think the, you know, there's, there's no better place on Substack to sort of define somebody who both is doing this journalistically and has a open mind about various theories that could be behind it. So it's sort of like a, literally a sort of reality check, uh,
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
For anybody who is a conspiracy theorist on all things JFK, you have served as sort of this center of trying to gather the information, be fact-based about it, explaining what's missing, what information do we still need, things like that. How did you become JFK Facts? Give me the origin story.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
I hated the movie. I loved the movie and I hated the movie because look, I consumed all the conspiracy books and the Warren Commission and all these things. And I was always mad at how Oliver Stone treated every, he decided to take every theory and make one theory, right? And so it bothered me how he did the editorial, but it did lead to a good outcome in that it got the government to act.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
So you're right. But I'll be honest, Stone's interpretation drove me nuts.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
But at the end of the day, he's focused on what he can prove, what the documents have said. And this man has been through these documents for decades. I'm not just talking a year or two. He isn't somebody that just started doing this when the Internet was invented. He's been doing this story basically back since the early 90s, and he's probably as
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Particularly the Dulles CIA, right? Yes. The Dulles-run CIA.
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
Is that the birth of the Mary Farrell Foundation, which is sort of the backbone of your ability to essentially sue the government at times to make sure they comply, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Reacting To The JFK Files & Conspiracy Theories
as well known of an expert on all things the government has or may have on Oswald as anybody there is out there. So I think you will enjoy this. But I do want to leave you with this before I just let you dive in to this episode. When we think about the issue of trust and how much of it's been lost. You know, I talk about government, there's distrust of government out there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
I don't really, I've never understood why we somehow try to separate monarchies from other countries just because the person doesn't call themselves a king, they're a dictator, but if they do call themselves a king, they're suddenly a monarch. If it's sort of dictatorial rule, whether their title is king, emir, or president, authoritarian is authoritarian.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
You can't just pick and choose when you're going to be pragmatic. You can't just pick and choose when you're going to decide whether to get involved in another country's politics or not, or whether you're going to try to use American leverage. I do think that America ought to try to at least live by its own values and how it tries to help those in need overseas.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
So the decision to cut off AID was one of the worst foreign policy decisions that Trump has made. So, again, I go back. It is this sentiment. Live by it through all of your negotiations. Don't just live by it because you're trying to rationalize working with bad guys. Again, this is what you would say when you want to rationalize working with bad guys.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
I do think he's had some foreign policy potential. He set himself up for some potential positive foreign policy developments. Unless he gets in his own way, which is sort of the, you know, the most generous description of the Trump presidency in 1.0 or 2.0.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And it works if you treat your friends and those countries the same way. One more note on this trip. We just before I came on to record this top. Not shockingly, Vladimir Putin decided not to go to Turkey and to meet face to face with Zelensky. So now the ball's really in Donald Trump's court. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Is he going to Putin clearly believes the following on the war that Donald Trump's going to lose interest. America's going to lose interest and it will slowly back away from Ukraine. And he'll be able to essentially over time push and push and push and break Ukraine. Is Donald Trump going to let Putin play him like this or is he going to realize?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And I think more and more Republicans around Donald Trump are trying to tell him this is what we were trying to tell you about Putin. He can't be trusted. His word can't be can't take him at his word. I think Witkoff has learned this the hard way. His developer friend who is used as his personal secretary of state to go around the country, excuse me, go around the world, negotiate on his behalf.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
So ball's now in America's court. Ball's now in Donald Trump's court. Are you going to squeeze Putin? You squeezed Zelensky and forced him to sign this minerals deal. You humiliated him on an international stage at the White House. Putin is humiliating you, Donald Trump. Are you going to sit there and take it?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Or are you going to punish him for not accepting your engraved invitation to allow him to win his war with a lot more than, frankly, many in the Western world would have let him walk away with? And he still rejected your offer. He still rejected your offer. What are you going to do about it? A couple other notes. I don't want to make notes on the political side of the ledger.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
I think if you're wondering if 2026 is developing very similarly to 2018, you have another data point in your favor. The Omaha mayor's race, while officially nonpartisan, it's always been a swing. You know, there's a handful of of cities in the top 100 of populations that actually are swing cities. Omaha is one of them. Jacksonville is one of them. Indianapolis is one of them.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Miami-Dade County is another one of them where these big metro areas where. You frequently will see Republican mayor, Democratic mayor, Republican mayor. Omaha is one of those cities. And here we are in another election where it appears Democrats are a bit more motivated to vote and Trump voters are a bit less motivated to vote. It appears to be the same pattern that we're seeing develop.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
It's yet another data point. And so Omaha mayor this week, more proof why so many of us election analysts believe that The Democratic Party's likelihood of winning the House is probably in the 70 to 80 percent likelihood category, if nothing else.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Also of note, Pete Buttigieg, you know, the last episode I interviewed Rob Sand, who I said if he wins the governorship of Iowa as a Democrat, it probably guarantees that Iowa will be first in the nation. And I said if I was first in the nation, there'd be one candidate who'd be pretty happy about this. And that would be Pete Buttigieg. He he had a successful Iowa campaign.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
If you're looking for positive ways of how he's tried to, you know, try to move, move the country in a direction that maybe there's a majority wanting to move in that direction. But it's his inability to sort of when he's when he's on to something that has majority support, he doesn't seem to know how to implement it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
In 2020, I think he and the Sanders campaign can debate who won it. There is some dispute. I think one won the raw vote. One won more delegates. We can go back and forth on who, quote, unquote, won it. But either way, it was Pete's. It was less of a surprise that Sanders was in the top two and more of a surprise that Buttigieg was. He really is made for Iowa. He sort of just...
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
just I think temperamentally really has an opportunity to do well in those caucuses. So he needs Iowa to be first. Well, he made his first sort of presidential foray into Iowa earlier this week. And what was notable to me is what he said about Joe Biden and sort of admitted that Biden was a political liability. Didn't get into it too much.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
But the fact that he is saying that, realizing it, because I think it's a I think it's a bit of a problem for him. Right. He was he was a great candidate in 2020 because he was an outsider. He had no Washington baggage. This time he's going to have some Washington baggage that he has to carry with him. And I think the baggage that's labeled Biden is the heaviest of all.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Throw in the fact that the FAA looks like a mess. right now. And we have no doubt Sean Duffy, and he's done this a few times, is going to deflect criticism on him and say, hey, I inherited a mass. So there's going to be, I think, and at his town hall, Buttigieg was pressed a little bit about the problems at the FAA, what's been going on with recruitment of air traffic controllers.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
This is clearly not a problem that just started in the last six weeks. Obviously, Elon Musk didn't did Buttigieg a favor, if you will, and did Sean Duffy no favors by axing too many people at first and them having to have a massive staffing, have to fix their staffing problem inside the Department of Transportation for airline safety.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
But I think both of those issues are things that I don't think they make him un-nominatable, but they certainly are hurdles he's going to have to get used to. It is fascinating to me to watch different Democrats handle the Biden question. Buttigieg, you got to sort of own it. I think Chris Murphy so far is, is, is done the best.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
You know, he's basically said, yeah, I guess he was worse shaped than we thought, you know, sort of asked and answered. Let's move on. Chuck Schumer on CNN. When I made an appearance at CNN and on Casey Hunt show, the arena terrific show, it was a really good panel that day that we had, um, She asked the question and Schumer just said, I'm looking forward.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
He didn't want to deal with the question at all, which really is pretty cowardly. You know, I think it is – I really believe Democratic voters want to hear their leaders, certainly leaders that they think should be there. And this is why I think Chuck Schumer is becoming more and more unpopular. You're going to hear Ro Khanna here in a few minutes.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
He has he he doesn't have many nice things to say about the leadership these days of Chuck Schumer in the Senate. But his answer to Casey Hunt was, I'm looking forward. You know, he the inability to say, hey, I wish I would have said something sooner. I had my suspicions, but I didn't. I trusted the White House staff, whatever. But be a bit more honest.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
My my longtime colleague and friend, Sahil Kapoor, who's over at NBC News, had a terrific piece about Donald Trump responding to this executive order he signed this week before he left for his Middle East trip on prescription drugs. And let me read part of what he said. He says there's been a unique tendency for Trump in his second term.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
You can't tell me you haven't thought about anything else. And so the whole idea is I'm looking forward. Look, I hear you. I'm hearing it in my own household where where there's a question. Why are the Bidens showing up? This is bad for the Democratic Party. Why is the media focused on this? Well, hey, books are coming out. Trump's overseas. The Bidens chose to respond to it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
You know, a news story is a news story. You know, welcome to welcome to the news cycle. But and there's no doubt if the Bidens would would stay sort of in in Rehoboth in Delaware and not pop their head up. It probably would help the party move on from from this Biden debacle.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
But the more they're out there trying to defend themselves, the more it's only going to hurt the Democratic Party's image numbers, which took another beating in another poll that came out this week. You know, here, Donald Trump is unpopular. His policy implementations are unpopular. People are very suspect of what he's doing. Yet the Democratic brand is in worse shape than the Republican brand.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
So the point is, if you're a leader of the Democratic Party, you better acknowledge to your own voters what they see. This is a huge problem. Democrats do a terrible job of agreeing with their voters. Republicans are so much better at actually agreeing with their own voters. Democrats do a poor job of that. All right. Enough for me.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
The congressman from Silicon Valley, as I always like to introduce him as, but he's much more than that. Ro Khanna, Democrat from Northern California, by way of Philadelphia, as you hear. I'll be honest, Ro, man, your Philly accent breaks through. There is no California accent, right? The Philly accent is there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Well, you know, to New Yorkers, New Jersey is the Midwest, but that's all right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Very nice. By the way, are you Warriors or Sixers? What have you or Kings? So what did you end up with?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And your and your political coming of age was during their run. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Yeah. So let's talk about, look, you're traveling the country. Here's my observation about what's going on right now. And that I feel as if there's a vacuum. uh, of leadership in the democratic party right now. There are people that have specific leadership titles, but I, you know, I'm sorry if somebody asked me the question, who's the leader of the democratic party? I say, we don't know yet.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
a reluctance to attempt bipartisanship, even when there is significant overlap with Democrats on a goal. Instead, Trump has repeatedly sought to go it alone at risk of failure. The self-styled dealmaker is passing up opportunities for a deal lest they have to share the victory with his political foes. Kapoor writes it is a break from tradition.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
I don't know if that's the answer you give, but that's the answer I give. And I, and there's a lot of you out there I think are making the case saying, Hey, we need to go in this direction or, Hey, we need to go in that direction. Um, Am I overstating this or is that a fair description of where things are right now inside the party?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Let me pause that. That was very matter of fact of you just now. I mean, Schumer's Got that? I have sensed that myself, but you're the one traveling a lot more than I am right now. So Schumer's trust levels have really collapsed with Democrats? It's shocking to me, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Is this Biden hangover stuff, meaning he's the last, quote unquote, old guy still in leadership? And they're so angry at this generation that didn't leave, you know, in time, frankly, arguably. And Schumer in some way is because he's still there. He's getting a little bit of the anger at Biden for not stepping aside sooner.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And he's probably one of the best strategic partners that Harry Reid had on campaigns for a good 10 years, 15 years. Now, I feel like he's lost his feel and touch on the campaign side of things. And I felt that over the last couple of cycles where I think things haven't gone as well as they could have. But now he's getting hammered on the policy front.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
He notes presidents typically do attempt to achieve congressional approval for their goals, knowing that legislation is biased. the best way for a policy to overcome legal hurdles, especially if it's bipartisan, because it can stand the test of time. And he notes this move on drug pricing is just the latest example.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
So what do you think he should be doing? Should he be raising his profile a bit more? Do you think he's can look at it? I've had plenty of Democrats who tell me that they think he's stuck in Pelosi's shadow still.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Let me get you, though, to respond to something that I've noticed in the polling, in the more sophisticated polling I've looked at, which is all these things you point out. Trump's unpopular. I think I think in the the group of voters that made him president are the ones that have soured first. Right. Last ones in are usually the first ones off when it comes to. So it's not a surprise. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
The most skeptical supporters could be the first one to to jump off the bandwagon. But they're these same voters still view the Democratic Party worse than the Republican Party. It's it's been fascinating to watch their you're out there trying to talk to those voters. Right. The Democrats that that that the Democrats lost. Right. Supporters that they lost.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Obviously, there's the one way the brand can recover is simply by not being Trump. But, you know, that's only going to go so far. What you know, how how damaged is the brand and what's your vision to make it to recover it? And, you know, what would you be doing if you were Ken Martin right now? Because I'll be frank. I don't know what he's doing.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
In recent weeks, he notes, Trump has hinted at support for raising taxes on upper earners, a goal that is virtually unanimous Democratic support. He could have turned that into a bipartisan victory, but instead he's repeatedly offered it up as a trial balloon for his party line agenda, only for congressional Republicans to shoot it down.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
You have voter registration things here. Make sure you're doing this voter contact there. Right. Stuff like that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
I'm curious, do you think the people you've run into in Lorain, Ohio, share Howard Lucknick's vision of creating a generation, you know, multi generations of workers for factories? That is not the American dream. That is a that is a I'm sorry. That's that's communism. You're locked in to a to a job that you're the once you're born. If your father's a factory worker, you're a factory worker.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
He notes another example, Trump's campaign promise of government funded IVF treatments, another goal that Democrats are more supportive of than Republicans. And guess what? It is not in anywhere in his big, beautiful bill. And yet there has been, as he writes, scant effort by Trump at a bipartisan deal that could deliver on that promise.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
That's a caste system. That's a communistic system. I don't get that vision. We sort of they've gone off. They've gone off the deep end. I mean, we need to restore democracy. the ladder of opportunity, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
That's what this was about, where you got a factory job so you could support your family, so you could give your kids a better opportunity that maybe you didn't want your kid to work in the factory. You hope that that's a safety net, but you actually are hoping your kid does better than you. That was the American dream I thought we were trying to continue.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
These guys sometimes are like, wow, really?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Well, here's the other challenge, though, that I think you have and the Republicans have, is that the states that swung the election in the North are the states that took it on the chin the most when it came to our economic transition. But there's a whole other part of the country that did really well. Why is Texas a financial juggernaut and an economic juggernaut?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And then he notes the tendency in general is why Trump has signed fewer bills into law than any president since the 1950s during his first hundred days in office. And this is You know, look, I could sit here and say this is a Trump problem, but this has been something that's developed, arguably, really since Bill Clinton's presidency and really.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Because of NAFTA, because of globalization. Why are there factories in Tennessee? Why is Tennessee and South Carolina and Alabama doing so well economically? Because a whole bunch of foreign companies built factories in those states in America. Now, they chose those states due to union rules. We can debate that situation as well. But the bigger picture is,
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
there is a sense that I feel like we're pitting communities against each other. What was bad for one community was good for another. And this is what makes, I think, this tariff policy impossible to succeed at. Because one set of tariffs may help
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
So my apologies if it's frustrating you on that. My guest today is Ro Khanna. So it continues sort of a series. There's a theme this week, as you can see. Talk to three Democrats from really three different parts of the country. Right. Iowa, Texas, California.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
the steel industry over here, but may bankrupt a bunch of small businesses in the Sunbelt who have been able to grow as businesses because of the ability to buy goods overseas and the goods that they need to build their businesses. So how do you strike that balance? Because a good chunk of the, we have benefited more from globalization than we have been punished.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
but the three states that matter the most politically in the North took it on the chin. How do you strike that balance?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
By the way, it's so true. Like this is strange. Like the Republican Party has shifted from a small government party to tell you what to do. Political party tell you how to live your life where no floor, no local communities get to decide whether they put fluoride in their water in the state of Florida. Now, the governor says no. Well, what if a local community has a better, you know,
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
It feels better about how to do that. We all know about this, you know, the fact that childhood health problems skyrocket in communities that don't have Florida in their water. So should a local community be able to make that decision on their own? The Republican Party I grew up with believed in local control of those decision making.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
This Republican Party wants to tell universities what to do, tell you how to live your life. I'm surprised there hasn't been a libertarian revolt yet on the right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
So then some might argue since Newt Gingrich took over and Newt Gingrich's philosophy of took over the Republican Party, where you had. a Republican party that wouldn't wanna work with a Democratic president. And the more that happened with Bill Clinton, the fewer Democrats that would be willing to work with a Republican president. It became this tit for tat.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Look, you noted this. You represent Silicon Valley. When you started, the perception of Silicon Valley is that it was sort of pro-business but culturally liberal. Now it appears the tech world has gotten... a bit more culturally, maybe libertarian, I'd say. I think they always were more libertarian.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
But uber transactional, that it became, that it was sort of like, if you can't beat Trump, we might as well play ball with him. But You know, how do you describe this rightward shift of the tech community and the tech leaders and how much of it is is substantive?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
You know, maybe that the Democrats drove them away versus how much of it is just simply, well, Donald Trump does business transactionally and we can essentially bribe our way into bribe our way into getting what we want.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Then I guarantee Ro Khanna's dead. You'll invite him. You'll invite them all. Is it going to cost it? Does the seat cost a million dollars to the inaugural fund, though? Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Ronald Reagan enjoyed a lot of Democratic support in the early 80s for his early stuff. I remember getting lots of stories by the late Ken Duberstein, former chief of staff, in the last two years of Ronald Reagan. In the first term,
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
By the way, let me pause that. I have contended one of the biggest mistakes that we collectively did post-January 6th was deny Trump his First Amendment rights. And that turned out to be a mistake, that deplatforming him allowed him to create an alternative ecosystem that is now, you thought our information ecosystem was damaged before January 6th? You ain't seen nothing.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Chuck Todd cast. Thanks for watching or listening. How are you doing? And my apologies to my friends at Apple who listen just on Apple. We know we've had some issues. We're working with them. We'll take your help. pinging Apple to make sure they fix this problem of automatically updating the podcast there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Yeah. Uh, very quickly, since you're not waiting in much to California politics, um, What do you make – do you think Kamala Harris should be the next governor?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Duberstein worked in the congressional liaison office and they they had a mandate to work with Democrats and to find ways to come up with legislation that they could work with House Democrats. And they had a lot of bipartisan success. It was the way you got things done. Now, granted, Ronald Reagan had to work with Democrats because Democrats had control of the House. During his entire presidency.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
By the way, how is that not an indictment on the Democratic status quo in California? You've had 16 straight years of Democratic governors.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Is that on the legislature being much further to the left than the governor?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
That's a tea leaf, what you're saying. If you're trying to read tea leaves, that's a tea leaf worth looking at. there. You're such a student of history that I feel like I can ask you this question and that you're pretty good about taking yourself out of the equation. So Where do you assume in 2028 the country, the characteristics, the style of president, the style of leader?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
When we elect a new president, we usually end up with a different character, if you will, a different type of person than the previous president, whether we like that president or not. Right. From from Bush to Clinton, it was sort of a bit out of touch versus touchy feely. Right. George W. Bush was restore honor and integrity. It was a little bit moralistic versus Clinton.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Obama was Mr. Gray matter, gray area. Right. If Bush was everything in black and white. What do you suspect the nation's going to want in their president post-Trump?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
So certainly having, you know, and Bill Clinton had to work with House Republicans in as much of his second term. Why? Because for much of his presidency, they control the House. George W. Bush didn't have to really work with Democrats till the end and they weren't ready to work with him.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
I know. Right. It is easier to look back. That's why historians have the easiest job in the world. Right. They could keep looking backwards. Like, I always joke, I can't wait. I hope I'm alive in 50 years. It's borderline. I trust your friends in Silicon Valley to keep us alive longer. Right. But in 50 years, I can't wait to see what historians say about the era you and I are living in right now.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
You think sort of less celebrity? I mean, because, you know, one of the ideas some Democrats say, Stephen A. Smith or Mark Cuban, right? They're looking for Trump light, right? Going looking for a liberal Trump. And I'm very skeptical of that. I just think, no, I don't think we want to continue down this path. you know, celebrity path, that that's what we end up doing.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
But maybe I'm missing something. You're out there talking to people.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
You've gone 30 minutes. You have not dropped the F-bomb. Most Democrats. And it's so funny you say that. You're like, how do I how do I connect? Well, F you. I've connected now. I'm a working class guy. You're like, really?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And Barack Obama had, most of his legislative success came in the first two years when he had full control, democratic control of Congress. And we saw the same thing with Donald Trump.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
I know. I remember I used to, look, I remember Michael Bennett when he was running for president, he said, When I'm elected president, you could go three weeks without hearing from me. I promise. I thought, yes. Right. You know, but but what you're saying is actually that that's actually not a good thing either. Right. I mean, what's the lesson learned from the Biden failure of communication?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
So the point is, is that this has been a growing trend of less and less bipartisanship, which really means is why there's a feeling that none of, it feels like Congress doesn't really get stuff done because everything is being done on a party line vote. So let's go back to the prescription drug idea.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
There's a movement out there. In fact, the guy who helped recruit Dan Osborne to the Senate in Nebraska, you said you were just out in Nebraska, and he views some of his success as not being a Democrat, right? Pledging himself as an independent. And there are people that were very supportive of him are actually going, hey, that's the right road to go down in Iowa.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And that's the right road to go down in Kansas. And maybe that's the right road to go down in Florida. What do you say? I mean, I look at my home state of Florida. The state Senate Democratic leader left the party. Wow. He's the elected leader. Right. He left the party to go independent, saying the Democratic brand was was. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And yet there is half of the state not liking the Republican governance of the state. Right. Right. What's your prescription in these places that doesn't like their leadership? Iowa is a good example. Nebraska is a good example. But they've lost total trust in the Democratic Party, so they don't look to the Democrats as an alternative.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
you know, there's a movement of independence here that the Democrats have to win over in order to be a majority party. How do you get them back?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
I mean, it's it you know, here he does wants to create most favorite nation policy in order to essentially get prescription drug prices down in America, balance them out with, you know, many pharmaceutical companies sell these prescription drugs for a lower cost overseas than they do to Americans here. Now his executive order is meaningless. It is just a press release signed by his name.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Donald Trump called you up and said, I want to work with you on an issue. What issue would you pick that you actually think you could work with him on?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
J.D. Vance, your era, I take it, is this the first debate we might get before the midterms? Do you think we could get, I'll moderate you and Vance. This could be fun. You know, he may even go for it. Oh, he's a very confident guy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
No, it's what made us different. That's exceptional is that in America, when you're in our borders, the Constitution applies to you, even if you're not a citizen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
I want to get you out of here on this. I spent the introduction of a previous podcast that indirectly said that when America retreats from the world, when there's a perception that America retreats from the world, It is not a surprise if you start to see the rise of hotspots. And I'm not gonna sit here. And so I look at what's happening with Pakistan and India right now.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And this is the type of stuff that, and the aggressiveness of Israel right now in the Middle East and different things, This is, you know, when when America is not says, hey, we're not going to be the world's beat cop, that other countries decide to take, you know, if nationalism becomes the American way, the nationalism will become the globe's way.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And everybody is survival of their own regime and survival of themselves. And this idea that, oh, America is not there to tell us no or America is not there to help us out if we need it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
You think I'm being overly critical here in the situation between India and Pakistan or that I feel like if we were a robust NATO nation, if we were trying so hard to build an Asian NATO, which I think we really need right now, that maybe India and Pakistan don't. This doesn't spiral the way it could spiral.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
It'll get tossed out by the courts. It has no chance of becoming law. And how do we know this? Even the pharmaceutical companies know this. Like the minute the EO went out, stocks went down and then they realized, oh, it has no teeth. And then the pharmaceutical stocks went right up. So if he actually wanted to do this,
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
That's all the same person now, by the way, as you know.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Not yet. But you never know. Hank Seth may go. And who else is he going to put in charge?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Ask yourself, does he want another Republican to succeed him or would it be better for Trump's ego? The blue MAGA or independent MAGA. He wants he wants he doesn't want a successor because that implies he can be succeeded.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Well, that's what I always say. If you don't want America to be the world's cop, somebody else is going to play that role.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Well, we have been. I mean, the legacy of India is part of the Soviet bloc, or at least more supportive of the Soviet bloc back in the day. Right. We became Pakistan got closer. We had close. But, you know, we've had these uncomfortably close ties during the Afghanistan war. Right. That were both hot and cold and this or that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And obviously now strategically and economically, we have to get closer to India at this point. And so, no, we the irony is we have a ton of influence here and we're not using it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And by the way, there were plenty of Republicans who weren't interested in doing this with him. But he could have had a bipartisan victory. But he's chosen not to go down that road. He chose not to go down that road on taxes. He chose not. Now, there's a... You know, there would be those at the Trump White House that would say, well, there's a reason he has to do it this way.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
It's going to take a generation for this to recover. It doesn't just recover in one election. I think that's right. Hey, let me get you out of here truly on this. When would you when is it appropriate to start running for president in your mind?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
You're trying to lead the free world. I want someone. I was just going to say, I judge a candidate based on whether they're actually prepared.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Ro Khanna, it's always, you never play coy, which I appreciate. And you don't get punished for it, right? You're very, you know, you answer questions very comfortably and there's too many politicians that always get nervous about making somebody mad and you don't ever seem to have that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
It's called reconciliation. There's the only way he can't get over a filibuster. So if he wants to avoid Democrats having the power of the filibuster to thwart Trump's agenda, they have to do this under specific requirements on a party line vote. And look, I'm not going to bother to go through the minutiae that is reconciliation. All I will tell you is that this...
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Well, I just, that's, well, that's because, you know, what, That's the way democracy should work.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
The one's running for governor, one's running for might be running for president in Ro Khanna and one is a rising star inside of potentially House leadership. We'll see. And they all have different takes on what what should the Democratic Party be doing going forward? How should it deal with its past? And so I hope you listen and enjoy this conversation with Ro Khanna through that lens.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
That's what the well, yeah, that entire White House and ticket and they were so cautious. It's like they were in their own covid protocol still. I mean, it's I mean, and that's the that's the only that's the most generous way I could critique it in that they they got they got into bad habits during covid where they did. They could be in a zoom and they could do these things detached.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And they got too comfortable being detached. And frankly, I look, I see it with my son and his friends who are in their 18, 19, 20 right there. They're almost they're revolting against what COVID did to them type of thing. And I think, yeah, I think there's I think there's a message in there for the for for how Biden and Harris handled things.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Well, I have a Gen Z focus. I got a 21 year old, an 18 year old, and I'll just leave it at that, is that there is a real distinction between their experiences and their level of trust in government. It's fascinating.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
We did it. Obama said it. Trump said it. And our place is the same. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
No. And I, you know, I joke. I think both parties are more fragile to collapse than you realize. Look at what's happened to the Tories. Don't think that can't happen to any major party in this country. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. Anyway, my friend, be safe out there. It was a great day. Take care, sir.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Well, I told you Roy kind of had some choice words about Chuck Schumer and had some advice for Akeem Jeffries that he's got to get a bit more aggressive designing what his speakership should look like. Get out of Nancy Pelosi's shadow. And I found the mocking of cursing to be fascinating.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And again, it's just interesting how different Democrats want to handle this situation in this in this post climate. Let me stick in a couple of questions from you guys. I love it. You guys pipe in with more questions all the time. So let's do a little Ask Chuck. By the way, speaking of Ask Chuck, there is now a weekly sub stack that I'm doing beyond the pod, if you will.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
I have a fascinating I have my lead item this week is about whether Both parties, the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, are fragile enough that they could collapse a la what's happening to the Tories in the UK. I provide a little bit of historical context there. Would love for you to check it out and tell me what you think. Please respond and ask questions based on it. I'm all for it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
you know, when it goes to, you know, my frustration and our cult of personality presidencies is mostly the result of an ineffective Congress and a broken Senate.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Here we go. Question from James E. Why do reporters who cover Trump avoid asking him questions about his weaknesses? Why not ask him about his mafia mindset? Has anyone asked him about Lisa Murkowski's comments about being afraid? Or how would he feel if the next president tries to remove or limit his Secret Service and his lack of character being a bad example for the next generation?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Well, there's a reason why you're not hearing many reporters ask him these questions, because he has decided who gets to come into the Oval Office and be in the press pool. And I do think the attempt to control the press pool, because this actually happened a lot more often. in the first term. You'd have more just combative questions, which I think is a healthy, you know, combative questions.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
You'd have combative questions. That's what the White House press corps should be there for, no matter who's president, you know, a little bit, because sometimes it's a combative question that really can help you suss out what the president is really thinking or understand the motive for a decision. And, you know, I also believe that
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
There are questions that you ask a president that isn't always about trying to catch him in a gotcha, but in fact, hand him rope to hear more of his answer. I'm one of those, you know, look, Trump will get out of anything and claim he's not for something, this or that. So you're better off asking him about things he might be for rather than things he might be against sometimes.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And this ridiculous reconciliation process, this ridiculous set of filibuster rules that sort of work and sort of don't, where you don't really filibuster, you don't really have a way to sort of, to use it in a way that might actually make it look like Mr. Smith going to Washington. You could have I think we could have a more functional government, a more functional legislative branch.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
or asking him why didn't he do things that he said he was going to do, right? Why didn't you go up to Capitol Hill on January 6th? It's a question that nobody's asked him directly. And I kind of, I don't, I certainly hope to have that opportunity. And whoever does next, why didn't you go? Why did you choke on January 6th?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
So I think that that style of questioning should be more common with dealing with Donald Trump. But the reason you're going to get many of these questions is he's handpicking
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
some of the people in the pool so while he's still doing this daily back and forth he's you know they're they're he's he's trying to have the most friendly questioners as he can surround himself with at times on that all right let me do one more before we talk a little pete rose um And here's the question.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
You talk about the possibility of the Republican Party splitting between more traditional Republicans and mega Republicans that were to happen, who would even be in the traditional wing? It's interesting. This is Josh in Ohio. And the question goes on for a while. Here's the thing. I just do think that you're going to see you already are seeing the Republican Party is broken into two.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
The state of Texas is a great example that has become a three party state. And how do you know it's a three party state? Pay attention to how they elected the state speaker of the House. It was a coalition of Democrats and essentially non mega Republicans. who banded together to create a majority to elect a non-MAGA speaker, or in this case, a non-Ken Paxton wing of the party speaker.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Ken Paxton, the attorney general there, who's certainly pretty MAGA. Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick's pretty MAGA. Greg Abbott is a guy who's trying to straddle the two wings of the Texas Republican Party. And John Cornyn is a decided member, I think, of the more traditional wing. Of course, he's trying to be MAGA friendly a little bit.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
But I do think, you know, in many ways, I look at the Texas Republican Party as more of a sort of on the forefront of where the Republican Party is headed. And it's already split in two. They're just all member of one party right now. But this really is a divided Republican Party. I think Florida's Republican Party is headed there. We're not there yet. I think you will see this
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
during the 2026 governor's race. I'm not as convinced Byron Donalds has a glide path, and I don't think Casey DeSantis' campaign is going to get taken that seriously. I just think that Ron DeSantis is too unpopular, frankly, with a lot of people these days. But I don't think Donalds will be alone. I just suspect that there'll be more that jump in. Now, maybe...
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Trump will keep a lid on that a little bit. But I do think Texas is the sort of what you're seeing happening in Texas is where things are going. I think in the rest of the where you will see a sort of a distinctive split. Then the question, does it become a party?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
You know, does something like the forward party be able to sort of recruit some of those non mega Republicans, just like they're trying to recruit the non progressive Democrats? Right. So but I think it's I think in that sense, it's already there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And I and I, you know, if the Democrats go further to the left, I think for sure it's going to leave sort of that traditional wing of the Republican Party, the pre-Trump wing that homeless and possibly searching. All right. Pete Rose, Hall of Fame.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Look, I have always thought this was the exact punishment that he deserved, which was he should not be allowed to financially take advantage of being in the Hall of Fame while living and that it's perfectly appropriate that he posthumously, you know, in fact, it should have. I, you know, I think in. Maybe the right thing to do would have been to let them know, look, you're eligible.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
You're going to be on the Hall of Fame ballot after you pass away as a way of saying, you know, the punishment is you don't get to financially benefit. From it, which which seems appropriate, given what he did and that he did tarnish the game, you know, and there's evidence that he bet against his team.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And, yeah, we would have more bipartisan bills. And I know that in these days, if you're if the other party has the White House, the party out of power doesn't want to work with that because the president's going to get all the credit. This should be the incentive for Trump to try get caught trying bipartisanship. Barack Obama didn't like doing it. He wasn't great at it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
By the way, my favorite part of the whole Rose story sidebar story is the guy who wrote the damning report that got Rose banned from baseball, John Dowd. was Donald Trump's first attorney in Trump 1.0. So it's just, you know, the strange bedfellow list always gets so long in the Trump era, but that's just one of them. But for me, this opens the door about how should our Hall of Fames work?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And it's always bugged me because, look, baseball is the one Hall of Fame where baseball fans, we all get so well. He's a Hall of Famer and he's not. We all get so focused on numbers. They did this and they did that. I'm obsessed, for instance, with Fernando Valenzuela.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
He'll get into the Hall of Fame now, probably because he's both a broadcaster, successful broadcaster, and he had a great career. You know, was his numbers enough compared to his peers? And I look at it and be like, my God, go look at how many innings he averaged in his first 10 years pitching.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
You look at his first 10 years and tell me it is not compared to the way we use pitchers now, why it wouldn't make him an automatic Hall of Famer on that front. I was also somebody that used to wonder why Steve Garvey wasn't in the Hall of Fame, but I understand the numbers. It was, it's, you know, now I'd argue he was the best player on
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
A team that was one of the three best teams for a 15 year period in baseball, which the Dodgers were from arguably 72 to 80 to while Garvey's almost from at least Garvey's time, 72 to 84. And then, of course, I've always said the Dodgers were the team of the 80s. They were the only team to win two World Series titles in the decade of the 80s.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
The Cardinals went to more World Series, but they only came away with one. on that front. But I always thought it should mean that the Dodgers were the team of the 80s on that. But the issue of the Hall of Fame, because I'm one that thinks Barry Bonds has got to be put in. I would struggle with Rafael Palmeiro. And I'm talking, of course, by the steroid guys.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And I'd struggle a little bit with Clemens because I've always been what's bugged me about Clemens is I accept the premise that Bonds was a Hall of Famer before he started taking the clear and whatever it was, lotion, however you want to look at it. There was Bonds through 1995 and then Bonds the last eight years of his career.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And Clemens looked like a worn out pitcher when he left Boston, suddenly was rejuvenated when he goes to Toronto. So I'm I there's there's always I've just always had more questions. That's all I'm just always had more questions. That said, whatever he figured out, then he was able to sustain it for a long period of time. But let's not forget what one of the three words is in Hall of Fame. Fame.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Is Barry Bonds famous? Is he one of the most famous baseball players? Yes. Is Pete Rose famous? Is he one of the most famous baseball players? Yes. Is Bob Uecker famous? Is he one of the most famous baseball players? Yes. Now, Bob Uecker didn't have a Hall of Fame playing career, but what he did for baseball and as a broadcaster, it puts him in there, right? You got to have him in there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
He tried it a little bit on health care. And then the minute Grassley and Voinovich walked away, he walked away from bipartisanship. He wasn't alone. I'm not going to sit here and just, you know, Bill Clinton tried hard at first with bipartisanship. It didn't really go anywhere. George W. Bush had some success on his tax cuts.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
as because he belongs somewhere because in the game of baseball, he's there. And with the steroid guys, a lot of them, they belong there. Now, I've always joked, build a wing that sort of has a bolt, build a wing of Cooperstown that bulges out of the building. You know, go ahead, have the say it on the plaque. But the idea that you ignore them is,
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
If Cooperstown should be that museum of the history of baseball, hard stop. Do you just pretend 10 years aren't there? 15 years aren't there with this dearth of players that we're not going to put in? So, look, I think we need to... I know my baseball friends, my purest friends. Look, I think the NFL Hall of Fame is in, excuse me, the Football Hall of Fame.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
It's not the NFL, Pro Football Hall of Fame. So it's obviously not run by the NFL. The way they do it, I mean, at least baseball is transparent with its writers. The convoluted nature of the NFL, of the football Hall of Fame business is just ridiculous. You don't there's no accountability on voting. It's not clear.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
It's like these committees and it just, you know, there are guys that don't make the Hall of Fame right away. How did that happen? Then there are guys that make it quicker. And you're like, really? Yeah. And they just it's it's kind of their process is a mess and isn't very transparent. I wish it were. So we always nitpick the most about the Baseball Hall of Fame because of the magic of numbers.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Right. It feels like it's the most meritocracy of all the Hall of Fames because numbers have mattered so much in baseball. But of course, because of the steroid era, it is sort of. screwed that screwed that up a little bit. So anyway, I let's let's remember what one of the words is in these Hall of Fame's fame.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And let's not underestimate the importance of that when trying to decide who's in the Hall of Fame. All right. I'm going to shut up now. I appreciate it. Thank you for listening. Like and subscribe. Give us that five star review that especially let Apple know that you love the podcast, but you wish the feed were more reliable when they were updated. Come on, Apple, let's get your act together.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And with that, until we upload again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
He got five Democrats, if I'm not mistaken, to sign on to some Bush tax cuts back in 2002. So and he worked at that hard. Obviously, the atmosphere after 9-11 made things a bit more collegial, at least for a short period of time, and he took advantage of that a bit. But it is odd. There are times that what Trump wants to do align with a chunk of Democrats who would like to pursue the same policy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And instead, in an attempt to be Mr. Art of the Deal, he instead sort of floats it. Look, I think it serves him well politically, right, because many in his political base are not small government conservatives. They want to hear that he is in theory for some of these things. So he's able to come out and sound like a populist, sound like, hey, I'm willing to raise taxes on rich people.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Yeah, I want to lower prescription drug costs, but I'm not going to do the work to actually make that happen. If he wanted to make that happen, there's a majority of voters that would raise taxes, majority of members of Congress. that would agree to raise taxes. He could get a tax break essentially for young parents.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
They wanted to increase the side of the childcare tax credit, get bipartisan support for it and have it paid for by raising tax rates on individuals that make over $2 million. You could get probably get Democratic support for eliminating many taxes on people earning less than $100,000 a year in exchange for raising rates on those that make a million plus or more.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
I mean, the irony is that there is there are these bipartisan deals to be had if he really wanted to do this prescription drug. So it is a question of. of does he even want to do these accomplishments? Does he just want some credit that he's for them? And he can say, well, Democrats don't wanna work with me.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
Look, I've said this, I used to say this during the Obama administration, and Obama's folks would get mad at me. I say, you know what? This isn't a 50-50 arrangement between president and Congress. Presidents have to go 80% of the way. Congress will never go more than 20% towards a president, right? Because they're so fearful of their own politics, their own place, all of those things.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
So presidents almost have to go further in order to achieve, you know, a small incremental piece of bipartisanship. But this president passes it up, doesn't try, sort of will throw up a tweet or a truth social post here and there. He'll get some credit. He'll have some Democrats going, yeah, we would talk to him. And then it never happens. So it's a fascinating aspect to watch of him.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And I hope you've listened to Rob saying and I hope you listen to it. Jasmine Crockett. So it's an interesting, I think we're getting an interesting window. All three of these are millennial politicians, by the way, if you're keeping track generationally. So I think it tells you sort of where the next generation of leadership wants to take the party.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And look, the fact of the matter is his presidency is gonna disappear into thin air if he doesn't get bipartisan achievements. If all of his achievements are via executive order and reconciliation bills that basically expire after 10 years, then it really means his presidency and all the impact could be erased in a decade or less. If you want real achievement,
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
You got to get bipartisan action done and signed into law. That's how you get real achievements. Now, let me offer a little bit of praise here for the president. I thought the words of his speech that he gave in Saudi Arabia were interesting to me because it's I think it's something that. Let me just put it this way.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
It's a type of foreign policy that I sort of it was the coming of age of foreign policy for for for people of my generation and older, very much a Cold War pragmatism. Here's what he said. He goes, far too many American presidents have been afflicted with the notion that it's our job to look into the souls of foreign leaders. An allusion to George W. Bush and Putin and use U.S.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
policy to dispense justice for their sins. It is God's job to sit in judgment, my job to defend America and to promote the fundamental interests of stability, prosperity and peace. Look, there is a bit of a dividing line. There's sort of two divides in American foreign policy of your basic left versus right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
But you do have this sort of different divide, which is between is it America's job to spread and promote democracy or not? George W. Bush thought it was. Barack Obama thought it was as well. And I think post Cold War, it's where it was Bill Clinton's instincts. It was George H.W. 's instincts. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And I think I think if you're a child of the Cold War or if you were a leader during the Cold War. You want to believe that winning the Cold War meant democracy won, communism lost. Right. So, OK, so we can keep spreading. So but sometimes, you know, as as Donald Rumsfeld sort of said, once you go to war with the army, you have not the army that you want.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
And American foreign policy at times has to be different. You deal with the leaders that are there, not the ones that you wish were there at times. And so, look, he's gone about this in the Middle East with some pragmatism when it comes to the Houthis, when it comes to Iran, when it comes to Syria, when it comes to Gaza. There's been a pragmatism to him.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
I'll be honest, there's a cynic in me that says this pragmatism is all because the Gulf state rich guys that he's sucking up to and who are helping essentially feather his personal nest and help with all the crypto business that the sons are involved in is part of the motivation to be pragmatic about Syria. It's something the Gulf states care about. Pragmatic about Iran.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
It's something the Gulf states care about. So pragmatic about Gaza, it's something the Gulf States care about. So it's possible this is simply motivated by his own personal greed, his own personal hopes or transaction. But the sentiment is a fair sentiment, but I would throw it back at him and at Vice President Vance and say, why is it that you're getting involved in Germany's politics?
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
The question, of course, is whether this older generation of Democratic leaders will ever give up power. A lot of them struggle to do that, whether it was Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Schumer. That's and you can hear a little bit of that frustration in these interviews. But before I get there, I do want to talk a little bit about the president's trip.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
If this is what you believe- And I think it's a fair way to think about American foreign policy. Be uber pragmatic. What's in the best interest of the United States? Hard stop. If you got to deal with a dictator here or there, it is what it is. Okay. Then it's none of your business how Germany wants to conduct its politics and treat right-wing extremism in their country.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
It's none of your business what France wants to do. It's none of your business what Albania wants to do. It's none of your business what's happening in other democracies. So it is a, like I said, the sentiment I think is one that many Americans would agree with because most Americans are pragmatists. You have to be. I always say, in fact, the whole idea of America is to surface human pragmatism.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
OK, so the sentiment works. And frankly, in the Middle East, you know, this kind of sort of realpolitik over time has served to be the best way to keep stability. But you can't just sort of pick and choose when you're pragmatic and pick and choose. And this would be the problem here is stability.
The Chuck ToddCast
Ro Khanna On Biden's Big Failure, Trump Damaging America's Reputation, Democrats Leadership Crisis
It does feel as if this administration does beat up those that are closest to us ideologically, other democracies, because maybe they don't like his brand of democracy. But if you're going to preach this sentiment to the dictators of the Middle East, and then remember that's, look, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, these are not royal families. These are benign, at best, benevolent dictatorships.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
And from then on, I argue that the television news business, and frankly, the news business in general, truly started to figure out how do we package this to make it more interesting, to make more clicks and eyeballs and all this stuff. And of course, social media comes along, algorithms comes along, and all of this ends up on steroids.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
But whenever I'm asked the question is, how did we get to where we got with this current state of media and journalism? I do think one of the sort of the core mistakes, the initial mistakes that was made was a decision that the single most important news event in America for a six month period was when a news organization decided that trial of a celebrity accused of murder
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
is more important than war in Central Europe or the battle over whether there should be national health care for everybody. These were some of the stories that were taking place at the time. The advent of the Internet, all these other news stories that would have normally gotten coverage but didn't because of OJ. So anyway, I...
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I do think we sometimes forget that our business made some mistakes that created the conditions that sort of created this media circus that we all now find ourselves participants and viewers of these days. So there's that. A few other things that I want to point out. Tuesday was an election day. An incumbent mayor lost in St. Louis. Why am I making a big deal of this? Because...
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I have a feeling that it's going to be a bad year for incumbents. And if you want to know, if you want to look for canaries in the coal mine about the midterm elections, keep an eye on some. There's a lot of vulnerable mayors. We've already had, you know, a new mayor elected in San Francisco. We got a new mayor in St. Louis. Eric Adams, the mayor of New York City, is unpopular.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I doubt he wins reelection. The point is these off off year elections, when you start to see incumbents go down and, you know, There may have been for parochial reasons or this or that, but it tells you there's a vibe for change. There's a vibe for change out there. So just something to keep in mind.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Texas Senate, probably the single biggest development in the battle for control of Congress in 2026. Why am I saying this is a big deal? Because it's two parts. Number one, this is sort of a huge showdown between two wings of the Republican Party.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I still think it's possible that what Donald Trump is doing with tariffs is going to fracture the Republican Party between the sort of think of it as the Romney Bush wing, free trade chamber of commerce wing on one side and the populist nationalist Donald Trump wing on the other. Well, we're going to see a massive sort of heavyweight collapse. primary fight in Texas.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
John Cornyn, sort of more of the avatar of the traditional version of republicanism pre-Donald Trump. And then the attorney general there, Ken Paxton, who is very much a Trumpy, more Trump, more MAGA-related, believes in using government, weaponizing government in a way that many conservatives pre-Trump wouldn't have felt comfortable doing with government. So this is going to be a massive fight.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
A Ken Paxton victory in the primary, makes it realistic that Colin Allred, the likely Democratic candidate who lost the last time to Ted Cruz, but was competitive, certainly raised a ton of money. I think Colin Allred has, the ingredients are all there for him to win this Senate seat. If Paxton's a nominee and Donald Trump's approval rating is hovering close to 40%, that's how that would happen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
and Mike Pence was the vice president, and Mike Pence was in charge of the transition. Well, we now know in hindsight, particularly after watching the first 80 days of Trump 2.0, that what Mike Pence and Reince Priebus did in stacking that administration in Trump 1.0
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
And if Texas is suddenly put into play in the Senate, well then suddenly the idea of Democrats having a 20 or 30% shot at taking control of the Senate is actually realistic. Right now, I put their percentage chances in the teens. This is a tough map for them. But if they get that primary now in Texas, North Carolina, Maine, Democrats are defending a lot of open seats still.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
And I think that's going to be the reason why they don't win the Senate ultimately. But suddenly- you're starting to see just a few more pieces being put on the game board here that might give Democrats a boxer's chance. So those are my omissions and corrections, clarifications. Again, I wanna try to do that as best I can, especially if I make mistakes.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
By the way, I used the word, I used the whole construction of seriously and literally, and I did it while on CNN with my friend, Brad Todd. who is a Republican strategist, and he says, hey, you brought up seriously and literally. Do you take Trump seriously or literally?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Well, Brad wanted me to remind people that he is the first person to ever use those turn of phrase and said, hey, people are taking him too literally. You just should take him seriously. By the way, I debate whether which what you should do literally or seriously with Trump all the time. I'm very curious if you guys have questions about that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
And speaking of questions, I promised that I would answer and I'm going to try to answer three questions here. I'm going to try to get out of, you know, I don't want to linger too long on your feed on days that I don't have interviews. But I promised three questions here. So here's the Ask Chuck segment. Ask Chuck. Yeah, I got some cool music now. So it's a little bit more fun, right? Ask Chuck.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I love it. All right. Question one. Over the years, we've seen increasing partisanship and dysfunction in American politics and the journalism that covers it. What can ordinary citizens who consume political news do to be part of the solution and not part of the problem of hyper-partisanship in the media and politics? That question comes from Michael Hammond.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Well, look, Michael, I kind of think the problem with our journalism these days, it's not locally sourced. You know, I want my political news the way I want my ingredients at my favorite restaurants in Arlington, Virginia, which is I want those ingredients locally sourced. Well, I want my political news locally sourced.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
And so if I'm going to proclaim myself the news czar here and if I could be the news czar and try to fix this problem here, the biggest thing I would do is essentially, you
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
cut half of the political journalists in Washington and kick them out of Washington and send them to all 50 states, capitals, and all 200, say, major metro communities in this country to start reporting on the impact of government on the ground. This is the way political coverage used to work.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
was to put in a whole slew of guardrails in the form of personnel, whether it was Gary Cohn, who worked on the White House economic team and literally snatched documents away from President Trump from getting rid of trade agreements with South Korea at one point, or Jared Kushner versus Donald Trump Jr.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Washington bureaus for smaller papers around the country did the job of explaining what government was doing from the perspective of your community rather than top-down coverage that just told you generally what legislation was gonna do.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
We actually had these journalists who were in Washington, D.C., covering their specific member of Congress, explaining to their local readers how those local members voted, how the bill would impact community, you know, street Y or building X and what money would be spent right local and people would have a better idea what government did.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
And if you wonder why people aren't sure what government does in their community, literally government trees are falling around forests all over the country and there is no one there to hear the tree or see the tree fall in the community forest. So the biggest thing we could do is Try to consume your political news locally.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Try to find good, trusted local folks that you trust that understand your community and see Washington through that prism. Look, this is one of the, this is what I'm trying to work on and figure out if, you know, can I help build a media company that can help support and expand and encourage the expansion of new local news and people to do this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
But, you know, um, it's a great question that you asked. Um, I think the solution is we need 1,000 new local publications, 1,000 new, not 10, not 15, 1,000 community-driven news organizations that I think could help clean up the information ecosystem. All right, we go to the next question. It comes from a fellow GW alum, Drew Archer. He says he's an avid listener. Appreciate it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Don't forget, like and subscribe, like and subscribe. Did I tell you to like and subscribe? He says, I have a few questions related but I think I'm just gonna take, they're kind of merging into one. Here it is. He says, do you think there's a straight line from Obama deciding not to go after the big banks in the aftermath of 2008 and the rise of Donald Trump?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
He says, I think there's a pretty good case to make for it, but I'm curious about your perspective too. Do you think Bernie would have defeated Trump in 16 had he won the Democratic nomination? I think another thing worth noting here is ours didn't love it in 2016, but they listened to their voters and Trump won.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I think the Ds undeniably put their thumb on the scale for Hillary and didn't listen to their voters. Same thing could be said for Biden 2024. He gives me a go hippos. That's a real sort of deep cut for GW alums, the hippo business. For now, I'll just say go revolutionaries. I'm going to save the hippos.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Go do your own rabbit hole on the hippos and try to understand what GW people mean about hippos. But let me answer his question there. I'll never forget a line where Rahm Emanuel, who was chief of staff, the first chief of staff for President Obama, said he wanted to do some Old Testament justice when it came to the financial crisis. I do think the fact that nobody was frog marched.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
We didn't see anybody in orange jumpsuits. Nobody was held accountable for doing what was done to the world economy, let alone the American economy in the housing crisis. So I do think the lack of of. of justice in this was in hindsight, a big mistake. I think another big mistake, which actually lawmakers learned from when they handled COVID was they didn't throw enough money at the problem.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I think COVID, and you could argue, maybe we threw too much money at the problem, but the choice was recession or inflation. And I think when you look at what happened during the Great Recession and what happened during the inflationary period of the last four years, trust me, most Americans would take inflation over recession every day of the week and twice on Sundays. So-
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Jared Kushner, very much a bit more of an internationalist, a bit more friendly to private equity. Donald Trump Jr., a bit more culturally conservative and pugilist. And he's the family member with the most influence on Donald Trump right now. The last time it was Jared Kushner who was the family member with that kind of influence. And I could go on and on, but I think it is pretty clear
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
That is another reason. I think the not finding a way to save every house, 500,000 or less should have not been foreclosed on. That should have been the PPP loan, if you will, of the great recession. So I do think that also contributed to it, but I don't think you're wrong about that. As for Bernie Sanders, I think now I come to the conclusion that Bernie probably beats Trump.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I do think the Clinton last name was the problem there. I think clearly voters wanted the establishment elites out of here, right? In many ways between the Iraq war and the great recession, the assumption was the Clintons, the Bushes, all these people were responsible for this clean house, get rid of all. First, the Democrats cleaned house and they got rid of the Clintons and nominated Obama.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
And then what did Obama do? He put his thumb on the scale for Clinton. What did Donald Trump do? He ran against the Bushes and got rid of them, ran against the Clintons and got rid of them. So under this scenario where Bernie's the outsider that slays the political dragon on his side of the aisle,
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I do think that Bernie is probably a much stronger candidate in the general election against Donald Trump. There's no doubt. And we see it now. Right. And it's obvious now in the in Trump 2.0 and his success in that election that. that Bernie voters in 2016 were very much more Trump curious and Kennedy curious than they ever were Clinton curious or Biden curious.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
So I think now it's pretty easy to see that in hindsight. But I'll tell you this, if Obama doesn't put his finger on the scale for Hillary Clinton, I actually think there's six or seven other candidates that jump in this race in 2015 and 2016 And I don't think Sanders ever gets traction, but somebody else would have. And I think somebody else would have beat her, potentially. And you're right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I do think it had been a fair... Had she not been such... Had such... frankly, support among rank and file insiders, which she had earned that support, I would argue. Bernie Sanders thumbed his nose at the party. So yes, there was the thumb on the scale for Clinton, but arguably she paid her dues to make sure that thumb was on her scale, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
She went to pancake breakfast and she raised money for the party. Bernie wouldn't even register as a Democrat. So I understand sometimes the frustration among Sanders supporters, but, you know, he did not exactly try to become a member of the Democratic Party in good standing. In fact, ask yourself, is he a member of the Democratic Party? The answer is no.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Do you know how many times he's promised that he would become a member of the Democratic Party since he came so close to getting that nomination? Quite a few times. And he's still not a member of the Democratic Party. All right. Last question. Then I'm going to take, and there's others that you guys have sent in, and we'll get to that. Here's a question. Long time, long, long time listener.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
All the way from my days at the Hotline, Meet the Press, et cetera. This person now lives in Milwaukee from a farm in northern Ozaukee County. I hope I said that right. In Sheboygan, and he visits Sheboygan County a lot. I love to say the word Sheboygan. Who doesn't like to say Sheboygan? Feels like you want to, it's like Shepoopy. Sheboygan, Sheboygan.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
that Trump 1.0 had a lot more guardrails preventing Trump from governing by instinct. That is not what has been happening in Trump 2.0. He has been governing by instinct. It is why the tariff regime was announced. It is why the tariff regime was put into effect even for a few hours. There is nobody around him to tell him no. Now, clearly what happened here is a couple of things. One,
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Anyway, talked to a ton of people, and he's amazed at the number of people who voted for Trump strictly because the Democratic candidate was a woman in both 2016 and 2024. Yet of all the pollsters I listened to, no mention of this at all. I also have friends who have cabins up north, and I hear the same from them. Strictly a Wisconsin thing. Taboo to report this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I'm amazed every time I hear a 2016 or 2024 analysis and no mention of this. John Streff. Well, John, what's the gender of one of the two U.S. senators in Wisconsin? A woman, Tammy Baldwin. She's, and it's, she's a lesbian. And she's won three times now. 2012, 2018, or excuse me, she's won in 2012. She's won in 2018. She's won in a presidential year. She's won in a midterm year.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
And she won again in 2024. So I think that, here's the thing with this question. It is hard to crawl inside somebody's head. I will go to my grave believing that Hillary Smith defeats Donald Trump, but Hillary Clinton couldn't, meaning I believe the last name was much more toxic than gender on that front. I'm not saying those voters don't exist.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I'm not saying that, you know, and I've certainly seen that there's some evidence, particularly that African-American men may not have been as comfortable voting for an African-American woman for president. I've had plenty of African-American men in the political sphere claim this to me. The reason pollsters don't bring it up is some of these questions are things you can't poll because people lie.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
They give pollsters the correct answer. They give pollsters the answer that they think they should give versus perhaps how they feel. But when you're in that voting booth, nobody gets to see it, right? So then you do what you do. So I'm not going to sit here and rule that out.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
And I do think that I won't be surprised if there is more hesitancy among Democratic Party elites about supporting major women candidates in 2028.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I'll be very curious whether it's AOC, Gretchen Whitmer, in particular, Amy Klobuchar, whether that the perception or even Kamala Harris, if she decides to run again, that this conventional wisdom, maybe women can't win or not right now in this presidency, that it will... could become self-fulfilling. But I really don't believe in either case. I think that there is more evidence.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I'm not saying those voters don't exist. And guess what? I'm not a woman and plenty of women in my life disagree with me on this. So I just, I throw it all out there. I'm not gonna sit here and say that I'm being definitive here. But I think the data shows that the other factors mattered too. And I think Clinton's last name, being part of the longtime Democratic elite, she was not changed.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
She was considered more status quo. I think, I mean, the fact is, in theory, being a woman should have been seen as a change agent. One would argue she sort of leaned away from that. Some look like she's been there. Nobody's been more overanalyzed than Hillary Clinton. So I'm not going to you know, I don't I don't. And here I go doing the same thing again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
But I'm I'm you know, I I want to see what Hillary Smith would have done. Hillary Rodham, Hillary, you know, but so there's that. And, you know, This election, the incumbent president, I don't know what sitting vice president could have won an election when the incumbent vice president that was the running mate had an approval rating under 45%. Hubert Humphrey couldn't win when LBJ was unpopular.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Al Gore couldn't win when Bill Clinton's personal character was unpopular. George H.W. did win as a sitting vice president. Why? Because Ronald Reagan was popular. So I, you know, Had Biden been popular and Kamala Harris couldn't win, I think there's a stronger argument about gender or race and gender. But I just can't discount that aspect of it. Anyway, I'm going to leave it here, as I promised.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
The markets didn't write themselves. They sort of, over the weekend, comforted themselves to believe that, oh, once people digested this, it wouldn't be so bad. It was bad, particularly in the bond markets. So clearly, they realized they had a problem. And A lot of wealthy people have Donald Trump's cell phone.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I hope you enjoyed this truncated version of the Thursday Toddcast. Remember, you too can ask me questions. Send them to AskChuck at TheChuckToddcast.com. As I like to say, don't forget the the, just like the George Washington University and the Ohio State University, the Chuck Toddcast. You can't forget the the. So with that, I'm going to sign off for another 24 hours or so.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
And hopefully I'll see you soon until we upload again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
And I'd said this before with members of Congress, that they were going to start feeling heat directly from their most important constituents, important, of course, in quotes, meaning their most financially significant constituents, who all have their Congressman and Senator on speed dial as well. And they were all complaining about these tariffs.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
It's why you had arguably for the first time, multiple elected Republicans going on the record, criticizing the tariffs. They were gentle about Donald Trump, the individual saying, well, I know what he wants to try to do, but I'm not sure these tariffs are gonna be, or the Tom Tillis quote, who do I choke if this doesn't work? But he was saying things like, if this doesn't work,
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Ron Johnson clearly didn't like any of these tariffs, but he's been pretty supportive culturally of a lot of things of the MAGA movement, and he didn't want to sound anti-Trump in how he did it. But they were all speaking out. You had bills introduced in the House and the Senate. You had seven Republican senators ready to sign on to a bill that would essentially –
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Particularly, we think the thing that truly rattled the president was what was happening in the bond market. But I'm not here to play CNBC guy for you. There are plenty of smart financial guys. If you want to go down that road, you can go down that road.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
give the tariff power back to the legislative branch and take it away from the executive branch. So I think that this is times 100 with Donald Trump. Every major donor of Trump's has a cell phone because Donald Trump loves to get their calls. He loves to talk to them. And they all were talking to him and they were all trying to cajole him, convince him. They weren't yelling at him.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Hello there. Happy Thursday. Welcome to another episode of the Chuck Todd cast today. A solo round of things, obviously a big development in the last 24 hours with president Trump's decision to rescind or pause the tariff regime, which had been in place for a couple of hours leading to another market meltdown and, uh,
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
but they were all begging him. And then Donald Trump weirdly enjoys being seen as playing the role of savior. And there's no doubt in my mind that the best way to get him to act is you can really help the economy right here. You alone can make this happen. So there are all sorts of ways people have learned to play the Trump personality, to sort of, you know what you're gonna get.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
How do you use it? Can you control it? Certainly over the last few days, there was some doubt creeping into my head a little bit and some doubt creeping into the head of others that maybe this is a different Trump. Maybe he so believes in tariffs that he is not going to let outside forces influence him and show him what reality looks like. But that wasn't the case.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
So I think the big takeaway is he is still... He still cares what rich people think. And it was the wealthiest people on Wall Street that were screaming the loudest, including many people that had become important supporters and advocates of him.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Bill Ackman, who's become a very polarizing figure in the finance community, but certainly is somebody very loudly in favor of Trump and then very loudly complaining about the terrorists. You had Elon Musk complaining with Peter Navarro. So the point is, I think the lesson to take away here is that pressure still works with Trump.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I'm here to talk about the politics of this moment, what to learn from this moment and what it could mean and how to watch sort of reaction going forward. So what to take away from this? Well, bottom line is Donald Trump blinked. The blink. The question is, why did he blink?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
He may not have the Thelma and Louise gene that I thought perhaps we were all staring at here, that, boy, he was willing to drive off that cliff no matter the evidence, no matter what people were saying. That is not what happened. The question is whether he's already done a lot of damage. He showed some weakness. Now he's showing a bit of indecisiveness, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Sometimes indecisiveness can be just as damaging as being sort of wrong and strong, right? So... I'm not saying he's politically out of the woods. I don't think he's going to recover, but clearly he saw that his own political ratings were going upside down.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
He was 10 points in the negative on one poll I saw earlier today, earlier on Wednesday, excuse me, that had his numbers upside down on the economy. His numbers in the economy looked like what Joe Biden's numbers on the economy looked like at the end of 2024. Needless to say, that's not a good look.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
He's also a guy trying to get Congress to do a very difficult budget proposal that will give him his big tax cut. It's not an easy vote for some of these members of Congress. So here he was creating this horrible political environment for the Republican Party, a shaky economy, and he was cajoling these people to vote for a budget that may or may not be very popular with the public.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
That was a lot to ask. And I think that he had a big vote in Congress that he needed to get through. This goes back to the criticism I'd leveled earlier. Forget whether you think it's a good policy. Let's assume you accept the premise that the policy Donald Trump is pursuing is a good idea, which is figure out how to use tariffs in order to sort of get manufacturing back in America.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Well, then he didn't order his agenda very well. He should have been focused on the tax cut and his budget first, doing Doge and the budget, doing all of that in the first six months. And then if you read Owen Cass, who is basically a big defender ideologically of what Donald Trump is trying to do, in the New York Times, he laid out a more rational way he could have done this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
And ironically, he even talked about creating 90-day windows. Well, here we are with a 90-day window. It does appear as if I think what we're likely to see is these tariffs will come back, but it's probably going to be a bit more methodical.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
And going into this, there was always a belief, almost like a security blanket belief among the business community, who towards the end of 2024 accelerated in their support generally of Donald Trump over Kamala Harris. You know, and it was the basic reasoning being regulation, regulation, regulation.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
My guess is Peter Navarro has been shoved back into the line a little bit of advisors, but it doesn't mean Donald Trump's belief in tariffs is going to go away overnight, even if Peter Navarro is not in the room or sitting as close to Trump in his ear as everybody else.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
And it is clear that Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary, another big advocate of this tariff policy, is also wearing out his welcome with some staff and with some key supporters. So I do think the most polarizing figures behind this policy, Peter Navarro and Howard Lutnick, you're going to see them sort of be pushed aside a little bit.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
These tariffs are going to come back, but it's more likely now that they're going to be a bit more methodical and there'll be at least a little bit more predictability. I don't know if they're going to be any less impactful, though, on the consumer.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
And if the cost of living goes up on consumers, even if it's just a directed tariff on China, I am skeptical that that is going to be something that Republicans can continue to overcome. No, no, no, no, no. You must sacrifice to go get China. I am I am skeptical that even the most devoted of MAGA folks will have the patience beyond a few months here or there. But look, it's it is.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I could tell you this. There are a lot of Republicans that are relieved. It's sort of like one of those moments. OK, they got through this crisis. But let's remember. We're still not at the 80th day of this presidency, let alone day 100. We still have at least more than a thousand days left in Donald Trump. So a thousand days of this potential policy gyration, instability.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Ask yourself, is business really going to assume everything is now normal and the way it was? Or are they now going to have to take this moment where they have breathing room and essentially prepare for more disruption and more instability?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
in my conversations already with some business leaders over the last 24 hours, it's pretty clear now they're gonna use this breathing room to essentially truly prepare for some of these potentially worst case scenarios when it comes to international trade. So there's sort of my quick sort of 24 hours later reaction. Of course, in the era of Trump, you always have to be careful
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
What you think is happening in the moment can suddenly change on a dime, as many a person on Wall Street has learned. But for now, I think that's the situation where he has at least stopped the political bleeding that was starting to become a gusher, really, had he continued to follow through with these tariffs the way they were executed.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
A lot of times in these solo shows, one of the things I want to do in these shows is a few things. I want to sort of deal with what I call errors and omissions, meaning there's some topics I didn't get to in the week that I kind of wanted to give a, you know, not necessarily a hot take, but call it sort of hot analysis that I think is important.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
is at least sharing with you how a development in a political race is sort of changing my thinking about the battle for control in 2026. So I'm going to get to that in a minute. And then there's some omissions, some things that either I meant to do and I never said, or I promised.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Donald Trump was campaigning on doing all these tariffs and all of these sort of business leaders were kind of compartmentalizing, believing, oh, he's not as serious. The tariffs he did the first time weren't that damaging. If that's all he's going to do, we can handle it. Didn't necessarily believe that. that he was willing to go where he was going to go.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Like in the last episode, I talked about sort of my take on what's wrong with the current state of media and journalism. And I sort of told you, I said, well, I have this whole thing about OJ Simpson. I said, well, I'm going to put a pin in there and get back to you. Well, I'm pulling the pin back out.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
So I'm going to start my sort of cleanup section of this, of this episode of the Todd cast with sort of, uh, finishing my analysis there about the OJ Simpson angle to this. So when you think about sort of how the media became what it has been, very narrative driven, right? Everything seems to be about narrative rather than about policy in the moment or about the facts in the moment.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I think one of the great sort of mistakes big mistakes that big media has made in my lifetime. I go back to 1994, and I know for some of you listening to this, you're like, hey, that's before I was born. What do I give a shit about that? Well, here's what happened in 1994. 1994, at the time, we had one cable news channel at the time, CNN. There were not three yet. There was just one.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
And in 1994, we had arguably the most famous crime of the 20th century. One of the most famous people in America was accused of double murder. OJ Simpson was a football star and a TV star, actually, and frankly, a movie star. And everybody loved OJ. Now, if you look up O.J., you think, oh, he's this. Before 1994, people just loved O.J. Simpson. He was just a football hero. O.J.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
Simpson being accused of double murder was the equivalent of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Derek Jeter, somebody like that. That's how beloved O.J. was. It was beloved the way a Peyton Manning's beloved or a Tom Brady. You'd be like, well, there's no way that guy would do that because he was in our living rooms all the time. So it was a big deal. Don't get me wrong. It was a big deal.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
But it was entertainment. Big deal. Not hard news. Big deal. But CNN made an interesting decision. Before that, CNN had a reputation of being, boy, they were covering the first Iraq war better than any news organization had ever covered a war. It had really looked like they'd sort of redefined what 24-hour news meant. So they were writing the rule book.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
There really wasn't 24-hour news organizations before there was CNN. And it was really seen as sort of a high pillar of journalism, big J journalism, if you will. And they made a ratings decision. It was the first time they made a decision. They saw that we had something called Court TV at the time, and they were taking advantage of cameras in the courtroom. And Court TV...
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
was covering all the preliminary hearings. And CNN had never worried about ratings before, noticed Court TV was outrating them. And they were like, whoa, maybe we ought to cover the OJ trial. Well, cover the OJ trial they did. And CNN made so much money covering the OJ trial, dedicating hours every day just to the trial with occasional interruptions of other news happening around the world.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
that both NBC and Fox decided they too were gonna start cable news channels. They didn't start cable news channels because they thought the public wants more news. They started cable news channels because they saw, look what CNN did at the big event and how much money they made. We're not gonna leave that kind of money on the table.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
And from then on, what it did, and what I believe the sort of the bad gene that this planted in the media business was this. Before OJ Simpson, news divisions that were owned by big media companies, as long as they didn't lose money, they were fine. After OJ Simpson, media executives and the bean counters said, oh, well, you can make money on news if you make it interesting.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Tariff Turbulence + How The OJ Trial Changed News Media
I think the biggest reason why there's been so many miscalculations about Donald Trump 2.0 versus Donald Trump 1.0 is simply the missing people that were very involved in putting together Trump's first administration. Mike Pence and Reince Priebus. Reince Priebus was the first chief of staff. He was chairman of the RNC when Donald Trump got elected president, and then he got named chief of staff.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I think the Democratic brand is in the toilet and all the polling, even if the first hundred days shows you that it still is. Voters can believe two things at the same time. Trump's presidency is going off. It's going horribly. And they haven't yet seen anything out of the Democrats that's appetizing. It's pretty clear the D.C. leadership is getting a failing grade.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
the, what, uh, what motivated him, what were his, what were his, uh, creative, uh, mentors, if you will, both individuals and of different movies and shows, uh, just trust me, you're going to love this interview. Uh, you're going to love him and you're going to learn a lot about what it takes to create Black Mirror, um, in the mind of Charlie Brooker. It is just, I am, uh,
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
The DNC is mired in its own intraparty feud over David Hogg and primary individuals, all of those things. The new DNC chair, I think, had a hard time sort of sort of establishing himself, frankly, yet I think bogged down a bit by this David Hogg controversy and the fact that both Schumer and Jeffries have their own challenges being the official leadership of the Washington class of Democrats.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
And it's been fascinating. You do get the sense that a lot of Democrats have decided to take this branding issue and try to deal with it themselves. And I expect more of this. This is what happened to the Democrats after 1988, and this is what happened to the Democrats to a lesser extent after 2005 and 2004.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
So I expect more of this, and this is something about every – when we're going to check in on the status of Trump and the MAGA, we're going to do this with the Democrats as well. So with that, I'm going to pause there. Again, you are going to love this conversation with Charlie Brooker. Please enjoy it. I'm an obsessive Black Mirror fan.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Sometimes I can't watch back-to-back episodes, though, and get a good night's sleep. So I do sort of limit my exposure to Black Mirror about one or two episodes a week as I digest the dystopian nature of our future. Enjoy the interview and enjoy this break. Charlie Brooker, you are a guest that my wife is probably more excited about than anybody that I've booked so far. I'm excited, too.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Don't get me wrong. OK, but, you know, you've made the missus really happy that you're that you're going to be a guest on the on the podcast here. That's nice to know. So let me start with this before we get into Black Mirror. Do you feel like you are the 21st century George Orwell?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Faux humility, right? You know, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. You know, please, please don't tell me, you know. No, no, no. More, more.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Well, when you look at when you look at Orwell and he's probably the most prominent, right? Here's somebody who wrote about a futuristic dystopia. Obviously, his was political satire. Yours is cultural satire. as well as societal and political, I would say. But in many ways, when I try to separate those two, I have many people say, well, everything's politics now.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Everything is all fused together, right? Everything. And I hate accepting that premise, but I understand why people think that. So that's why, I mean, I look at it, if George Orwell were reincarnated today, he wouldn't be writing novels. He'd probably making episodic series like you're doing, I guess.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I would have him on weekly if he had the time to do it. And there's no doubt, as you'll find out in this interview, this dude would be a lot of fun to be in a writer's room with. That's for sure. But before I get to there... I've spent a lot of time this week talking about the first 100 days of Donald Trump.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Well, let's stop beating around the bush. What's the show? What is it? It's a, it's a cookery show.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Well, you know, it's interesting. I watch Black Mirror with the following thought in mind is that you're doing the due diligence on the impact on human beings that the tech companies themselves don't do. Right. You're sort of like and that's what I feel. In some ways, you're the test kitchen for where this is headed.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
And I sit there and I'm, you know, because we talk like there are no ethics boards with any of these. You know, they all every once in a while open AI claims. oh, we have ethicists on staff or we're trying to have an ethics board. But really they don't. In many ways, you're the human ombudsman for technology right now in that I feel like you're the human test kitchen.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
But there is an opposition party that's out there, and I thought it would be worth doing the first 100 days report card, if you will, for the Democrats. Because as bad as things have gone for Donald Trump, this has not been a seesaw. As Trump goes down, Democrats go up. That has not been the case. In fact, the hallmark of all of the polling you've seen is even as Donald Trump's going down,
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Like, okay, yes, here's this amazing tool. Like take your first episode. I feel like we can spoil episode one. I hope everybody's already seen episode one. So take that episode. In some ways, you're optimistic. Look at this. We're going to be able to cure. We're going to be able to essentially...
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
replace pieces of the brain that's exciting and and in fact that's that is life-saving in the story in the story it's absolutely life-saving it's transformative yeah and then but then you sort of you you go okay but what if it has to do what if you're sort of stuck always having to be connected to the cloud you know it becomes a subscription model and they get totally they're totally crushed
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Yeah. And I can see your your comedian side of you. Wouldn't that be hilarious? Right. You're like, oh, yeah, upgrade. You got to be on, you know, plus, you know, or premium or whatever it is. But I could watch that episode and say you're an optimist about where we're going and to be able to like the, you know, with the brain.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
And you're a cynic because you assume somebody is going to want to profit off of people's pain and suffering.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
This is, of course, is when my producers are going to when our salespeople will insert the ad that's going to insert the ad right here.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
You're right. I love it. By the way, it's like it's like, you know, when you're when when what is it? What is it? You know, when people use undaunted and I'm daunted, you know what I mean? Or something like that. We have these weird expressions where we never use other parts of the word. So I don't know. Do we go to the house to put wheels in it? Is it where Michelins are made?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
the brand of the Democratic Party has yet to improve in the minds of voters. And arguably, that's a pretty honest assessment, right? What have the Democrats done to improve their brand? They really haven't done anything yet. If anything, they're still trying to figure it out. It isn't clear where this party is headed. What is universally clear, though, is that the D.C.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Well, all these tech companies, right? They sit there with the big tech, whether it's Facebook or... Let's take Facebook and X. Two really fun experiences when they first were rolled out. And then they became public companies and then suddenly they had to...
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
They had to convince shareholders that they could keep people on the site longer and they were staying on the platform longer and then they were putting more ads to them. Now, how did they do that? They cranked up the algorithms of anger and grievance and hate, right? Like it is.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
And then you have and then we and then you look at what Elon Musk did and he took all the whatever guardrails there were on X. He took them off. And I think that guy was writing about the gentrification of Twitter. If I'm not mistaken, like that was one of the examples.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
leadership of the Democratic Party is not very popular at all, whether it's Akeem Jeffries, Chuck Schumer. They're feeling some pressure. I've talked to some donors who are very frustrated with Jeffries. Don't understand why Nancy Pelosi is still sort of lingering over the leadership of the House as much.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I'm saying that my wife is listening to this one very closely. I don't know what that is, Charlie.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
So, so, So take me back to the to the creation, because what I love about your background, you give a lot of hope to all of us recovering journalists who think these creative ideas that we're all going to become, you know, we're all going to make some incredible. That helps. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
But, you know, how long did you have this in your head as an idea for a TV series before you actually could get it to fruition?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I had one one prominent donor say to me over the weekend, I'm glad Nancy Pelosi was there to do what was needed to be done with Joe Biden's candidacy. But. But her shadow over the party is only hurting Jeffries in the long run and is only hurting the party's brand in the long run.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Well, now we've all flipped, right? Now everybody's negative on tech, right? There's a general concern, right? Just look at how... I think we're all approaching AI. There's this immediate, are we sure? You know, because there's always a lot of, we don't want to do what we did with social media where we were sort of, yay, this is awesome, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Like, look at this, we're taking down dictators and only to find out, whoa, dictators figured out how to use this themselves. Uh-oh. Do you now, do you think you're going to find yourself, if you're a zagger, and it sounds like you're a zagger, right? If everybody's going one way, you're like, okay, this is probably the time we need to show people what the other path might look like.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
If the party is going to try to gear itself to the future, its leadership of the previous 20 years probably needs to step aside completely. So that is that you certainly hear that. Obviously, Chuck Schumer has been feeling the heat. He's probably getting more of the arrows than most, considering he had to make a tough decision.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Are you going to go optimist on us?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Right. Well, my favorite, you know what the second, you know, if the printing press was the single greatest invention to expand literacy to civilization, the number two most important invention were eyeglasses. So and I it's not my idea. This was a fellow journalist who was at this. You know, we were talking about all these technological transformations.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
And, you know, somebody was mentioned the printing press and then somebody mentioned the Internet and computers and all this stuff. And and it turned out like if you if you look back, the second most important invention for essentially literacy. Right. Eyeglasses. you know, was the ability to help people see. So you could read, right.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
You know, and it was one of those moments you were like, well, duh, but you don't think, sometimes we don't think of a
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
which was whether to shut down the government or sort of let Donald Trump have have a situation that wasn't going to be popular with the base of his party. I do think politically he made the right call. He just communicated the idea extraordinarily poorly since he spent one day talking up the idea of orchestrating a shutdown and then immediately backtracking on that front.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Have you used AI to workshop or road test any of your ideas? Have you used a chat TVT as sort of like a 10th writer in your writer room?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Like, tell me about like the pitch meetings. Like, how does that work?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I think it doesn't work if there's not a human creative element. I think that's what we're going to learn.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
The thing is... I'm convinced we're going to have to start paying extra for human customer service. I hate AI customer service, right? You feel like they don't know. You get the automated chats or the automated this, and then you're like...
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
representative or, you know, you hit your zero, whatever it is, and you have to wait longer to get a human being, I actually think some business is going to say, hey, why don't we charge people basically to talk to a human?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
But his political calculus about what the right call was, I think has turned out to be right, which is don't get in Donald Trump's way if he's in the middle of hurting himself politically. That's been the James Carville strategy. So I would say if you were going to give grades, the D.C. leadership is is is not getting good grades. I don't think they're getting passing grades yet.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
So if I didn't know you, I would assume you were a privacy nut. Like you're obsessed with privacy because a lot, I would argue a lot of your episodes deal with the issue of privacy. Riff on that a little. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I am already shocked at how much of a tech advocate you are because you're right. If I didn't know you, this is what you do, you'd be like... Well, this guy's probably off the grid. He probably has the aluminum foil on the doors. I'm not the Unabomber.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
In fairness, doesn't every technological advancement put somebody's career, get rid of some sort of, you know, refrigeration. We used to have people that worked in the ice block industry. Right. You know, literally blocks of ice. Right. We had refrigeration and you didn't need the block of ice people anymore. Now, there was probably a lot of people lamenting that those jobs were gone. Oh, my God.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
We're we automation is replacing jobs. Right. I'm being a I mean, I would argue this is sort of a repetitive cycle when it comes to any technological advancement.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Now, the question is, who individually has had a good first hundred days in the Democratic Party? Well, probably the best way to judge that is you is you look at it through the prism of future elections and the prism of of. trying to position yourself as a leader or a player at the table, trying to figure out what is the Democratic Party going to look like?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I don't think we teach, we don't teach spelling anymore. You know, and I was like spelling test. I was I loved and I was obsessed as a kid. I'm in my 50s now. Of course, spellcheck happened probably after college. And then all of a sudden now we don't care about you can't misspell words anymore because of autocorrect. Like people. And so I don't know what to make of that.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
But that is no longer relevant. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Not everybody thinks the British are smarter than we are. There you go. You guys are still being taught spelling.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Spelling is no longer... There was a time, right? If you weren't a good speller, you were uncomfortable even writing a letter. You would worry that it would create a judgment of you. And people would. Oh, you're not a good speller. You're not educated. And now... You don't worry about that. You don't worry about it, right? And is that a, have we taken away something from society?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Well, on the wrong hands, right? It turns out it's neutral, right? That's what we ought to think of it. All technology is neutral. It's the humans that use it. Are they using it for good or using it for bad?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I'd say another theme, let me ask you about another theme that does seem to come through. Consumerism is something you seem to enjoy. Is that more of a comedic element to you or also a word?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
What is the Democratic brand going to be? So immediately, when you look at people who have made an early effort to make an impression, Cory Booker, he certainly has decided to take matters more into his own hands. He did the 25 hour filibuster, which got a reasonable amount of attention. In fact, When he timed it, if you recall, I thought it was fascinating when he timed it.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
And I'm so glad you brought, that is a weirdly brilliant movie. People don't fully appreciate it. It's a brilliant, brilliant movie ahead of its time.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
And Judge Greg was made into a movie a couple years later because of the success of RoboCop.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Well, look, I think one of the other brilliant things you do is here you're dealing with a bunch of futuristic ideas, but the setting always feels right now, right? You don't, you're always, I feel like you're basically saying, hey, this is a little bit in the future, but it's very, but we're going to make sure everything else is as familiar as possible.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I'm an amazing team around me that has been able to get me into some social spaces that I I had not been to before, including my new and growing audience on YouTube. Like and subscribe. Do I say that enough? So I appreciate that. Apple Podcasts, Spotify. By the way, I tweeted out, we know some of you who get Apple, we're fixing that and feed issue.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
So you have the beaten up Volvo, right, in episode one. And in some ways, things were the same. You know, the only place you go get a crappy burger and things like this. But then you have these little grace notes like the honeybees, which I know is a theme, and a few other things. It seemed very intentional. This is seasonal. You've always wanted to keep –
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
You don't ever put people, you don't try to create futuristic landscapes, I've noticed.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
He timed it during the election and day of that first special election in April, which had the Wisconsin election and those two specials in Florida. So it was sort of feeding the Democratic base as they were getting excited about winning some of these special elections, overperforming in some of these special elections. And here he was sort of hijacking the D.C. message machine for a day.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Do you, do you, Do you try to meet with innovators in Silicon Valley and tech entrepreneurs to try to find out what's coming? Or are you just sort of saying... It's possible we'll start replacing the pieces of the brain, and this is probably how we'll be able to stop geoblastoma or whatever it is. I'll take it out and be able to replace this.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Is that just you guessing, or do you talk to experts that give you, well, this could be what we do?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I was just going to say, are there stuff that you've done? You're like, oh, wow. I didn't decide that you just either that or you foreshadowed something.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Oh, not only that, I happen to be very involved in various ways to... how do we educate people about the Holocaust and things like that? And what they're going to do is they've taken all of these historical oral histories that Holocaust survivors have done, and they're essentially gonna generate, even though they've passed on,
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
So I think And over the weekend, Cory Booker and Hakeem Jeffries did a live stream from the Capitol steps. So I think Booker is trying to become one of – trying to find his voice as a Trump resistor, another sort of D.C. insider that's trying that same thing as Chris Murphy, the Democratic senator from Connecticut. He's been trying to get on more socials, trying to sort of also –
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
they're still going to tell you their story and then you're going to be able to interact with them and have a conversation, speak, literally, literally speak and respond. And it's going to be a lot where you have a back and forth with a Holocaust survivor.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
You ask questions and the AI based on, I mean, it's, it's one of those at first you think it's dystopian, but you know what, that's an interesting, you know, are we going to, will Albert Einstein, uh, Well, forget Albert Einstein. How about this? Because this is probably more recent. Will Steve Jobs teach a computer science class? AI Steve Jobs teach a computer science class in 2035.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
What you think his voice might've looked like and you have his image and then all of a sudden, there you go.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I mean, I guess I look at the Holocaust survivors telling their story to children who can ask questions that feels like, okay, that's a good thing. You could see how that tool...
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
you know where it is you know where where do you say okay that's where we use it and that's it right like or where does that become weird right where does especially if you actually know that person if that's your grandmother are you having a different reaction how does it how does it work in terms of like if somebody yeah how does it what's the parameters for the conversation what happens if somebody's just sort of talking about what if they start asking for advice
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
By the way, we wonder why these Nigerian princes are so successful at getting money out of people, right? I mean, it is amazing. We human beings are oddly trusting in isolated settings.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Become more of a of an outside voice in pushing the party. And, you know, clearly is probably somebody at least thinking about running for president. I think Cory Booker, fair to say that he's thinking about running for president. Other Democrats in the first hundred days. So I think for the most part.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Right. The good part, I always worry about this with Silicon Valley. I think right now, there is a movement in Silicon Valley where they think we humans are standing in the way of their progress. Right. Right. Where we as human beings simply, you know, if we just get out of the way, right. Democracy.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
our lives better rather than essentially replacing us. But let me get one more thing. Let me get you out of here on this. We brought back the dire wolf and I, I'll be honest with you at that. I feel like that story came out just when your season hit and there was a minute I'm like, are we making this up? Is this like, sometimes like where we're headed with our abilities here.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
And it's like, granted, this is Jurassic park, right? This is Michael Crichton. Michael Crichton was thinking about this stuff and, who I also think, weirdly, is sort of underappreciated in his sort of ability to sort of see some dystopian things down the road.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Right, but here we are with the dire wolf, and you're just sitting there going, yeah, there's not going to be an unintended consequence to this.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Ready to go? All right. Three, two, one. Happy Thursday. Happy May Day. It is what this really is. It's the one-month anniversary of the Chuck Toddcast. So, you know, in content creator years, one month, that's the equivalent of five years of service these days. I have kid, but... I've I'm having a blast. I hope you're enjoying the content we're creating.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
It all depends on your age. I think we're in middle age. And I think when you're I would say middle age is weirdly peak wisdom, both good and bad. Right. You sort of you've learned enough life lessons to know what you shouldn't be doing. But you're not yet. You haven't lost it. Like, you know, at some point, I always want to know what age it is. Is it 72? Is it where you start to you no longer?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
are sort of... Are grounded. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Both Cory Booker and Chris Murphy, as far as their own standing, have made progress in where they're trying to get to. I don't know if they're the right answer. We're going to find out, right? Cory Booker could not get traction when he ran for president in 2020. Maybe that'll change this time, but some of the efforts he's making, you can see what he's doing, and it makes sense.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
And because you know you're... If you were an animal, you'd already be put out to pasture. I think that's what happens, right? It's something in the head there.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
It's a pretty old man day for you. So what if you know the day? Like I always say, at what point am I going to want to go to the airport four hours in advance? Like my mother never was that person. And then suddenly she's she's listening now. I'm sure, mom, I love you, but you always want to be at the airport. Why do you want to sit there so long?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
But I assume when I'm 70 or so, I'm going to be worried about that, too.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Oh, I'm like, I'm afraid of having any downtime at the airport. I think I'm wasting time.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
You know, they didn't know this stuff, you know, they didn't know the fax machine, you know, whatever it is, you know? Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Who's the bad actor here? Is it political leaders or tech CEOs? Like who's to blame for this moment we're living in where it's been exploited like this? The exploiters or the ones that make the tool for the exploitation?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I think it is.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Well, that's my great fear is that everybody's going to turn it. You know, if you ever talk to a Russian, In Moscow, they'll say, I don't know what to believe. People that live in Moscow don't believe anything, right? And in some ways, they know this, though. They're educated enough to know, oh, yeah, I don't trust anything I read. So I get that, and I worry about that.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Chris Murphy, same thing, gets a little less attention than Cory Booker, but you see what he's trying to do. It may be just the Washington baggage. You know, I'm convinced that the Democratic primary electorate come 2027, 2028 is just going to care about two things, new and electable. Now, electable is going to be a debate. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I don't know. And my great fear of AI is that we could actually erase history now. You know, there was there was supposedly a bunch of Russian propagandists who were trying to infiltrate these chatbots to sort of replace Ukrainian to try to essentially alter the history of Russia's relationship with Ukraine in history. And then you create it over time.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
you know, if you... It's very 1984, isn't it?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Right, isn't it?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
You could actually erase historical events, right? Whether that's the Holocaust, whether that's something else. That's terrifying. Yeah, that's terrifying.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Well, if you have a... The Chinese government controls information, so you know there's no Tiananmen Square. There's no history of what happened at Tiananmen Square if you live in China.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Thank you for saying that. I think that too. I know we all look back and there was lots to COVID. It wasn't like it was a laugh, but it was, yeah. But the globe, I mean, here's this, here's this event. that all 9 billion people on this planet experienced together. And that's something that's unusual.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
If you think about it, where we all, you know, everybody had experienced this in some way, whether you live in a very sort of, frankly, urban life, rural life, reclusive life, it didn't matter, right? Everybody had to deal with this.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
It could have been total breakdown of society, and we didn't have that. And we should be happy with ourselves for that.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Everybody has a different version of who's electable and what's electable. But new, I think, is going to be a big deal. Right. On the other first hundred days, Bernie Sanders and AOC. Right. Obviously, I think Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has probably had, for her personal politics, a very strong first 100 days, right? She's already in line.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
But they didn't, like, take matters into their own hands. You know, yes, we had bad arguments and stuff. Mm-hmm. but within a civilized guardrail. There's more arguments about it now.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
You're right. It's hopeful. It was a hopeful response.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Oh, I think we're so resilient.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Charlie, I have to say, I'm so happy you have this optimistic streak in you. I did. I was worried you were this, or I just got you.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
There's no question anymore of who's the heir apparent to the Bernie movement. It is her. It is not going to be Ro Khanna. It is not going to be anybody else. It is going to be her. It is hers unless somehow she decides not to run for president. Now, she's got two options sitting in front of her in 2028. If she chooses not to run for president, she could run for Chuck Schumer's Senate seat.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
That's audience, audience capture, right? You have to be worried that you worry that are you making something to please the audience versus are you making something to advance your mind, your thoughts?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
So it just sounds like you'll always have an ambition to keep this going. And there'll always be... And certainly there's always material.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
As long as... Oh, I'm worried you just created... I'm worried somebody's going to start dum-dums really soon. I mean, in some ways, OnlyFans is kind of like that.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
There's no new ideas. There's just better packaged ones, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
That's what ChatGPT will eventually tease us. Hey, without the pandemic, we don't specialize in doing these incredible Zoom telecasts now.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Half of what it is, right? Like, we will look back at this moment. It actually created... It was a moonshot.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
As I told you in a previous during the Dan Goldman preview there when I said keep an eye on him for the future. I believe, you know, I don't believe Schumer ends up running for reelection by 2028. Right. That just you sort of see where you kind of see where that's going. And I think he could be vulnerable in a primary if he's not careful on 2028.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Well, look, I, you know, when we see, we're seeing in schools with kids, I mean, look, there's no one saying we're saying it was great. No, I don't, you know, I know there was bad, but it was sort of like, Hey, the more important thing is we adapt it. We adapted and we survived. And we ought to at least not sell ourselves short on that.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Charlie, you've been very generous with your time. Black Mirror is just a, you know, I don't think there's any AI could have come up with this as a reminder that it takes a creative brain to come up with ideas.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Well, it's brilliant. And whether you mean to have us think in dystopian ways or not, the point is you make everybody think. And that's all that matters. That's all to me that matters. You're making us think.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
We've got to end on an upbeat note. A little hope and an optimism. All right. Thank you. Thank you. A pleasure. Great to talk with you. Thank you, Charlie.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
So, I told you you'd enjoy that interview with Charlie Brooker. He is fascinating. That mind is racing. And I don't know if you had RoboCop and Twilight Zone. I'm sure many of you assumed Twilight Zone and Rob Serling. Rob Serling was one of his inspirations. But you bet you didn't see RoboCop coming. And the minute he said it, I knew exactly what he meant. Go check it out.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
The first RoboCop was sort of... more innovative than I think people gave it credit for at the time. So anyway, it was just, I learned a lot. And frankly, it only makes me enjoy the show even more. I hope you got a lot out of it too. All right, let's do a little Ask Chuck. All right. Here's my first question. This one comes from Chaz Latore, and he writes this.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I don't think that's the way he would want to go out. So, you know, I don't know this. Nobody knows this. He's certainly been a very successful New York politician. So I'm not going to sit here and say that he should know when the time to go is. But I would be I certainly if I were a betting man, and as many of you know, I do enjoy a fan duel, a fan, a fan duel app every now and then.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
You advocate news in every small town community. That's interesting. But if news was generated locally, wouldn't it just turn into an echo chamber for the local community? For example, I come from a very left-leaning town in Pennsylvania. Wouldn't their news... cast just be an echo chamber where the word Trump would never even make it to a news broadcast?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
It seems like it would just be a lot of local Fox News channels that echo what the local community wants to hear. I would think a broader national broadcast would be more balanced. What am I missing here? Well, there is no broadcast balance, right? As we know, if you're looking for national news, you're going to go and you're looking for news, you're
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
What I'm advocating is not local versions of Fox or MSNBC. That is not what I'm advocating. What I'm advocating is that we basically need a different – what local news was at its best. And I understand that some people probably – it's been 25 years since we've had a healthy local news ecosystem arguably. So some of you may not have been around or didn't fully appreciate it. But
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
What I would say is we need more service journalism. And local journalism was more in service of the community than national journalism. National journalism is about essentially helping you be a citizen, your civics. But local journalism at its best is about helping you live your life. And that's what I mean. What we need is revitalized community journalism.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
that is focused more on helping you live your life, focused on how to save you money at the grocery store, how to save you money to take your kids out to eat, if there's a better night of the week. It's being essentially almost like a community liaison. My vision for these small town and all of these community information systems is that you become the information help desk for your community.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
And that could mean helping people find out when the high school game, when the high school lacrosse game starts this afternoon, helping people where to find it. I think all I want these places to be the streaming home for all of youth sports and high school sports. This is what I believe can be the glue to bring a community together.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I also see sports as a way that you can sort of cut through red and blue and because most, you know, a pothole isn't Republican or Democrat. It's a pothole. You know, so that's my belief here. That's what I know people tell me that they want. Whenever you ask, this is what people feel like is missing. So I am a believer a little bit in the field of dreams here. If we build it, they will come.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
But it needs to be journalism that is focused on helping people live their life. And I always say, where's the cheap food? Give me some micro forecasting for my community versus the one right next door when it comes to the weather, access to all the important youth and local sports that I that that I care about. And oh, by the way, who's corrupt in my city council?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
And so but it's actually that that part is the end part of things. Right. You know, people who want to be informed are always going to get informed. It's about everybody else in the community. Those are folks that are just trying to get by, live their life.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Either they're not news junkies or they've got other things in their life that take priority, like making a living, educating their kids, etc., How about coverage for that, right? That's the missing piece of this, is that it's not about creating more local political news, although I hope we get that too.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
But I'm starting in the places where I know there's collective agreement and where I know there's collective need. Chaz, appreciate the question and love the skepticism because it gave me a chance to push back. This comes from Josh in Ohio. And Josh writes, you've talked a lot about the possibility of the Republican Party splitting between more traditional Republicans and MAGA Republicans.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I certainly would be betting against him running for re-election in 28. So the question is, does does she want to be a constant long term player in D.C. or does she want to? Go for it and seeing if she can win the nomination. I'm skeptical she can win the nomination. I'm not sure. I go back to electability. Will she be able to pass the electability test, which is, again, very subjective?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
If that were to happen, who would be in the traditional wing? It seems like MAGA has completely taken over the party. So name some names. Look, I think MAGA has taken over the sort of the organizational structure of the party. There's no doubt about it.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
But I mean, look, the people that are in elective office who are clearly not MAGA Republicans, but essentially are trying to be MAGA adjacent, right? And I think many of the MAGA adjacent folks would prefer to be in the pre-Donald Trump party. That's people like Tom Cotton. That's people like Tom Tillis, Bill Cassidy, Lisa Murkowski, for sure, right? Mitt Romney, Chris Sununu.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
So I think, you know, to me, you know, I might even say Lindsey Graham, although I think he's a little more finger in the wind of where are South Carolina Republicans going to go is where he's going to go. And I think some of these Republicans that have sort of gone back and forth with that. But I think there really is a question about, is MAGA bigger than Trump? That's still the basic question.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Is it bigger than Trump or not? And does a Trump Jr. brand... hold MAGA together and keep it on its, I don't know, right? I think that's an open question and one we're going to find out sooner rather than later. But I think it's, I think, you know, really,
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
It does split along the, you know, do you believe in a sort of internationalist view that ultimately America is an example to set, that we ought to spread our ideals of freedom, free trade, democracy, things like that, a free market, that that is something we should spread around the world, which I think is in part some of the free market intellectual thinking in this sort of more traditional sense of the Republican Party.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I do think that where there is alignment is in cultural conservatism. So I think that that will continue to be the through line that keeps this coalition together. But if you're asking me to name names, those are the names I would go to. All right. This one comes from Judith Workman.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Her question, is it possible that the roller coaster that we have been on for the last few days, meaning the stock market, be simply a way to manipulate the economy for Trump and others in the regime to bring the market down so they can purchase more stocks, et cetera, and then bring the market back up to increase their personal wealth?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Well, Judith, look, you're not the only person who thinks this. There's no doubt there are people that are making money, who may have an insider knowledge of where things are going. But no, I don't think there is a large chunk of people trying to do that. You know, I do think there's the crypto community, particularly in the 24 election,
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I think there's quite a few people that are long on some crypto investments that are desperately hoping that they have value and they're worried that it won't have value and are counting on Donald Trump to give them value. But I'm not sure I'm there on the full-fledged stock market manipulation because, you know, it – perhaps there's some short-term traders.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
And that should be up and running without any problems, without you having to manually refresh very soon. And before I get to my guest, and I tell you, this is going to be a fantastic interview. You're going to love it. It's Charlie Brooker. He is the creator of Black Mirror. The amazing Netflix series that's sort of, you know, near term, the futuristic. Some people think it's all dystopian.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
And if we had a more functioning SEC, maybe there'd be some legitimate investigations into this, but sadly, we don't have a, an SEC that is truly independent right now that, that I think should be looking at these things. Um, you know, especially in the world of Donald Trump, who, you know, he, everybody, everybody sort of has the combination. I always joke, Donald Trump is kind of like, um,
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
The Elaine character in Seinfeld when it comes to the vault, if you remember that. And Jerry Seinfeld used to say, well, everybody's got the combination. It was Hennessy. You know, I think that was the brand of liqueur that all of a sudden she'd tell you everything she had.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
But I think the perception and there's going to be we'll see what the evidence shows. But I think she starts with a perception that she's going to have a hard time winning in places like Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. But I'm going to just always be careful to under I'm not going to undersell her. She is what I like to describe as a very talented political athlete.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Donald Trump, he's made it clear if you want insider access, pay $250,000 and come be a member of Mar-a-Lago or come do this with crypto. There is always access to him and you might accidentally get a tip that can help you. But sometimes Trump's saying stuff that he wants to happen and it doesn't happen. And sometimes he says stuff that does happen and you could have made money on it.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
But there are so many people that have bought access to get close to him at his clubs in particular. That you can't rule out that possibility. I just don't think it's a full organized conspiracy for what it's worth. All right. So with that, I think I'm going to wrap up this episode. Hope you enjoyed the week.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
If you haven't caught up on previous episodes, please do, because I know we've had some issues with the automatic updating among those that subscribe to the podcast on Apple. Obviously, even if you subscribe on Apple, come over to the YouTube channel, like and subscribe there. The Chuck podcast has a YouTube channel. You can check us out on Spotify or wherever else serves up podcasts.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
So with that, I'll see you next week until we upload again.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
And sometimes, you know, you look at the NFL draft and you'll see sort of, oh, somebody's got his arms are too short or he doesn't have big enough hands and all this stuff. But they're just so good at being a football player. They overcome whatever physical challenges. Trait that that that they should have that they don't have.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
And so I feel the same way about politicians is that, you know, they can be such good campaigners. They can overcome. Maybe it's a character flaw. Maybe they overcome an ideological issue, whatever it is. that you can overcome these things if you're talented enough. So I am I'm hesitant to assume AOC can overcome these things. I think she's proven to be a very talented, a talented politician.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
And I'm just watching her go from activist to elected activist to start trying to have more say, you know, both figuring out how to balance inside game versus outside game.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
But overall, I think you could say OC has had a very strong first 100 days because she now is certainly the one getting in front of crowds, whether they're Bernie-generated, how much she's in charge of that, how much it's Bernie's operation. That's still a pretty strong first 100 days. Then there's Pete Buttigieg.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
His decision not to seek any office in Michigan, and he was contemplating there are two open seats in Michigan, a Senate seat and a governor seat. Of course, he's a new resident there. He moved there, changed his residency to Michigan from Indiana. He and his husband moved there. His husband's from Michigan. So the question was going to be whether he would seek statewide office in 26.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
And I think if he did, he was taking himself out of 28. You're not – if you're running for a new office in 26 – I think it's hard to run in 28. If you're running for reelection in 26 to set up a run in 28, I think that's a different story. J.B.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Pritzker, the governor of Illinois, appears to be on that track, although it's interesting to me that David Axelrod, who's an Illinois guy through and through, is a little skeptical about whether if he wants to run for president, whether it's a good idea to also seek reelection, because Illinois might not be the as easy of a win for him as it has been in the past.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
But remember, he is a billionaire, the heir to the Hyatt fortune. So there there is plenty of money there for J.B. Pritzker. So I don't you know, is he somebody that's had a good first hundred days? He's also somebody that wants to become the resistor on the gubernatorial side of things, more so than a Gretchen Whitmer who's been seen working with Trump. She gotten too close to Trump.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I think she certainly had the worst photo op moment of any Democrat in the first hundred days with the infamous folder over her face. And then she you know, it's look, if she wants to rise above partisanship, she can't keep apologizing for showing up at events with Republicans.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
That's a habit she's got to break if she really wants to rise above and be willing to go to places other Democrats aren't going to go. So far, essentially, she's done that twice now with Trump, but she's apologized. I didn't plan to speak, right? Coming across as if like, please don't be mad at me, Democratic base, that I'm doing this. But hey, swing voters, look what I'm doing, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
You got to sort of project more confidence in that. So I think that how I think the ideas she's pursuing are good, how she's gone about them right now, I think I think could use some work. There's Gavin Newsom, who started a podcast in the first hundred days to try to break out of the stereotype San Francisco liberal narrative that I do think is going to haunt him.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
for for however long he wants to be in the national spotlight. There's no doubt he has ambition to run for president. I'm somebody who believes his best shot was primarying Biden when that talk was active and he decided not to. I think my guess is, you know, if he ever I always say this, the later in life, the more you age, you start
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
You do start not thinking – worrying about the things that you did. You start wondering and regretting the things that you didn't do. I have a feeling Gavin Newsom forever is going to regret not primarying Biden in 24. That that is – that road not traveled will be one that he wonders what would have happened had he did. Would the entire party be in better shape?
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Would he be seen as a hero even if he didn't win? Who knows? But – The extreme effort he's making to try to sort of de-left wing of eyes himself, right? De-progressivize him. I don't know what you want to call it that he's trying to do, but he's sort of like, I'm not sure how comfortable I am being a Democrat.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
What's interesting is. I will tell you this. I had a lot of thoughts of what I thought motivated Charlie Brooker on various shows. I bet you as Black Mirror fans, you will assume some things that you will find out are not true. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
You know, he's sort of acknowledging the elephant in the room with people who, you know, but is he also gone a little bit, is it a little too manufactured, right? Is it going to be, he's got to pass whatever, authenticity is another subjective word. You got to be authentic. Well, authentic to whom, right? I get the overall idea.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
If it looks like you're trying too hard, voters will punish that as well. So I'd give him a mixed grade, A for effort. But I don't know if, you know, just like I would with Gretchen Whitmer, A for effort. But I'm not quite sure if the execution's been as good as it could be. And then there's the people that I expect to be players in 28 that have decided not yet to raise their profile.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
Wes Moore, governor of Maryland. Andy Beshear, governor of Kentucky. Raphael Warnock, senator from Georgia. Mark Kelly, senator from Arizona. Ruben Gallego, senator from Arizona. I was talking to a pollster earlier this week who said to me. You know, when we were talking about the Westmore candidacy, because I think that's going to be assuming he runs in 28.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I think he will be the the the the biggest the biggest establishment organization on the Democratic side. I think he'll have some of the biggest donors or let's, you know, big some of the big names around him and Buttigieg. I expect to be sort of the the biggest traditional sort of campaign operations you have out there. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
But I had somebody ask me, it's like, if you're going to try to rerun Obama, be careful, right? It may be, especially now that Latino voters are the new swing voters of American politics, you know, should the Democrats be looking for a Latino leader? And so just keep an eye on Ruben Gallego.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
He was pretty liberal as a member of the House, but he really has been trying to sort of recenter himself with a statewide Arizona electorate. He did, you know, he got a little room to run because of who his opponent was in the Senate race. So that helped him a little bit. But he's still probably you know, he's been viewing very close to Mark Kelly here. I just keep an eye on him.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
I just think that that there isn't a lot of of Latino leaders that feel like they're on the cusp of putting together national campaigns that are not associated with an ideology of AOC. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
How ‘Black Mirror’ Reveals Our Bleak Digital Future w/ Creator Charlie Brooker
But I think she – I don't know if she would have an automatic appeal to that swing voting working class Latino voter that may be voting more on some cultural issues that they're uncomfortable with on the progressive side. So it's going to be – it's something to watch there and it's something that I'm curious about. So look –
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
You know, this this fight that we're going to see inside the Republican Party over tariffs and this fight that I think we're now, which may end up accelerating a larger fight about national security, because in many ways, Donald Trump, I think whether he means to or not, certainly is the leader of a new version of the Republican Party or arguably an older version of a Republican Party.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
And joining me for a conversation here about sort of the tumultuous week that we've had on the economy is Republican Congressman Don Bacon, who is from Omaha. And many people who follow the presidential election know know his district well, because Nebraska is one of two states that splits their electoral votes.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
So the Omaha congressional district has been one of those swing, probably the swingiest district ever. as far in America when it comes to ad spending. But the congressman there is Don Bacon, and he has, while he has tough races, he makes it through. Congressman, it's good to see you. Thanks. Good to be back on with you. It's good to see you again. I appreciate that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Well, let's start with, you know, because I have a little bit of time and we can do context to our answers, just for people that aren't as familiar with the Omaha economy, you know, it's been a great 30 years in Omaha. All right. If you look at it from that big 30 year picture, it's more of a diverse economy than it was 30 years ago. Give the give the elevator pitch.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Be my chamber of commerce guy here about why what's been happening with the Omaha economy and why it's been a good economy for the last generation.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
No, it's actually – you can get a good job there and pay a little bit less to live there than you are in some bigger cities. So tell me your great fear right now about this tariff regime that's been placed on essentially every country in the world, what that could mean for Omaha's economy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
That goes that dates itself back to the late 19th century, early 20th century. And back then, the Republican Party was a very protectionist party. Of course, the party of being the party of business, it actually was very logical why back then business wanted protection. because back then we didn't have air cargo travel.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
If I were working in the congressional... liaison office at the White House, you'd be one of the people I'd have on speed dial, given your sort of the fact that you're in a swing district, the fact that you're in this diverse economy that you you're a representative of. Did you get a heads up? Did they call me? Does somebody from the White House going, you know, hey, we're thinking about this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
What do you think? Any of that kind of conversation?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
I guess that's what – and I guess do you understand – what is the goal? And I'm going to sketch this out because if the goal is to essentially reindustrialize the United States – then in theory, there should be no negotiations on these tariffs.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
But if the goal is to lower trade barriers, essentially create a more level playing field, then you're not really going to change the industrial base of the United States. So do you have a good sense of what the real goal is here of the Trump administration?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Back then we had, you know, so American businesses wanted to be one of their businesses protected, if you would, from outside influence, outside exports. And so it made a lot of sense that the Republican Party, being the party of business back then, would be in favor of tariffs back then. Ironically, I think today's
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Right. Let me just go to ag exports. If... It's not as if I would assume Nebraska is making more food, if you will, to then it needs to feed Nebraska. Right. So if it wasn't for exports, the ag industry in Nebraska wouldn't make any money. You know, if you can't sell your beef overseas, where would it go?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Right. Well, it's not lost on me that Chuck Grassley, Iowa Senator, Don Bacon, Nebraska Congressman, you guys are two of the co-sponsors here. Essentially, Make Congress Do Its Job Again Act. I don't know what else it's called, but it's like tariffs are your job, not the president's job. And, you know, this look, we have 30 years of this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
This is bipartisan atrophy, if you will, when it comes to congressional action on this stuff. But, you know, you and I both know House Republicans are going to stick by this president for the most of your colleagues are going to stick by him for a while. But Obviously, you introduce it here. It sits here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Is this something that a discharge petition, some sort of bipartisan majority forces this vote? Or do you think more time is needed for you to make the case to some of your Republican colleagues?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
business, while they want to align with the Republican Party that was sort of from the Eisenhower to Romney era, one for low regulation and low taxes, is not advocating these tariffs. There's a couple of industries that are, but not many. And I think there's a real question now. And this is something I've been thinking about quite a bit and about our polarization. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Smoot-Hawley. Yeah, Smoot-Hawley. Not Josh Hawley. No relation.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Congressman, I was growing up. That was right. It was the Democrats were the protectionist party. I have all these. You see, I have this little paraphernalia. You know, it was the Democrats putting out buttons, you know, Japan with a cross in it and all this stuff. But there was a young man in the 1980s who took out a full page ad trashing America's trade policies with Japan.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
The young man was Donald Trump. Okay. I was also thinking Buchanan. Yeah. Well, him too. I mean, no, you're not wrong. I mean, I've always said Pat Buchanan, the beginning of the MAGA movement actually started in 1992. Right. Right. That was the beginning of this movement inside your party. And now you went from being a majority view in your party, free traders, you're in the minority. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
This has been a huge switch at the moment.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
They look this this judiciary seems a little, at least on the Supreme Court, a little hesitant. What I've noticed about the Supreme Court, they're hesitant to get involved in these fights. But they do when they do rule, they seem to say, hey, Congress has the upper hand here if they choose to use it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
We're we've been in the middle of a political realignment now, arguably for 20 years. I mean, in some ways, it's ever since the end of the Cold War. We've begun this sort of what I would call this this realignment and this splintering of coalitions that were very steady. during the Cold War.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Let's talk about, you know, when I first spoke to you, it was before COVID. It was before Wednesday, Liberation Day. We can make all the liberating ourselves from our savings jokes all we want. But you had earlier in the week had written this a pretty a pretty important op ed about Russia, Ukraine. And here again, you are.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
expressing what you and I grew up with as a majority view of what mainstream Republican points of view were. And suddenly now you're in the minority again. Explain your concerns right now about where things stand with the war between Russia and Ukraine.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
But if you think about this sort of calendar of events, right, the wall falls in 89 and the first evidence of the Trump era shows up in 1992 in the form of Pat Buchanan, a conservative pundit back in the day, worked for Richard Nixon, was a speechwriter. He challenged the sitting president back then, a Republican, George H.W. Bush. And challenged him in for the nomination.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
When it comes to... When it comes to the issue of Russia and sort of... You talk about moral clarity. I don't think... I mean, I think the president's made it pretty clear that he's a transactional guy, that he sees this as spheres of influence. And that in some ways, well... Putin's got nuclear weapons. Ukraine doesn't. They're the big dog. Ukraine isn't.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
You know, that that feels like sort of a bit of a mob mentality view of things. Well, that guy's got more control of the turf and it's just not worth the fight. I'm maybe I'm being too cynical, but is that how you think he thinks about this stuff?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
I think it's a bigger... It's the biggest problem we do in media sometimes is assuming motive. And I hear you on that. So I appreciate you saying that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Which could be a good thing in politics. Realpolitik, I mean, there's part of me that's like, look, you've got to have realism. You sort of have to do diplomacy with the leaders you have, not the leaders you want. So a little bit of that is good.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
You know, combining the issue with Russia and Ukraine and tariffs to me is a larger narrative is in is in what you just described, which is there seems to be this belief that the last 80 years have been a failure.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
When I look at the last 80 years and you compare it to any other 80 year period around in sort of modern civilization, and it may be the greatest 80 year period of lifting people out of poverty, the greatest 80 year period of helping the United States become a power. OK, without, you know, the greatest 80 year period when it comes to.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
both economic and personal security, the efforts we've made in health, you just name it. It's been an incredible 80 years. And it's amazing to me how much, frankly, you get some partisans on both sides that just trash how awful the last 80 years have been. You know, if these are terrible, I can't wait for the good years.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Let me just start with a basic cup of coffee. You talked about cigars and scotch, and that's one thing. A lot of people drink coffee, whether they're working class or upper class, and everybody's going to get a price hike.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
And coming up, I have a fascinating conversation with Don Bacon. He's a Republican congressman from Nebraska. He's from that congressional district that is very swingy. Nebraska is one of the few states that allows congressional districts to be split. I have a feeling the state of Nebraska is likely to get rid of that rule coming up. And if they do, Maine will likely do the same. But we shall see.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
He didn't get very close, but he found a following. He had a and it was a very when you hear if you go back and listen to a Pat Buchanan stump speech in Manchester, New Hampshire in 1991 and 1992, it'll sound very familiar. It's tough on immigration. It is definitely articulating beliefs and a bit of retreat.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Look, we've been talking mostly about Russia and tariffs and it's been consuming us. But there's a there's a real troubling development in Turkey. And what's been most troubling to me is how little the United States has officially spoken out against what Erdogan has done to his chief opponent. This is and I look, Turkey diplomacy is very tricky.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
And it's and I look, you know, Obama overlooks some things with him. Trump, you know, again, realpolitik, it happens. But I've been really disappointed in the lack of of official response on what's happening in Turkey. What about yourself?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Very, very fair point. They've been good on that. Not so good to our Kurdish allies in the Middle East. I mean, that's a that's even another issue. So but ultimately, look, it's not about their policies. It's about are they a democracy or not? And if you're not a democracy, you shouldn't be in NATO. Don't you agree with that? I would agree.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Hey, before I let you go, there's two things that I'm fascinated with about Omaha. One is the College World Series. I grew up in Miami. University of Miami's second home was Omaha for the College World Series. So I love the College World Series. But the other is you have perhaps one of the most famous constituents in America, the Oracle of Omaha, Mr. Warren Buffett.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Buchanan for years was seen as anti-Israel because he was really anti-foreign aid to anybody, including Israel back in the day. He was certainly thought, he was one of the early conservatives speaking against free trade agreements. He was violently anti-NAFTA. And so when you now look back at the time, He was considered kind of a gadfly, kind of a loud mouth.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
I assume that's an asset to you. How often do you use him as a sounding board, vice versa? What's that like when you've got somebody with that kind of influence, that kind of wealth and that kind of mind as a constituent?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
We all have kids. I got two kids. They may be going in different directions. You just, you never know.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
You are you're you spent a lengthy you had a lengthy career in the military. You are very familiar with sort of I think you ended in Nebraska at Offutt, if I'm not mistaken. Correct me if I'm wrong, if I'm getting that wrong. But I'm curious what you make of the the the various potential cuts that are coming in the military.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
What what concern what are the cuts you think are smart and what are the cuts are you concerned about, particularly regionally?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
And those are what's our right to cyber these cyber these cyber firings that apparently are linked to. Look, I'm not going to make you comment on her, this Laura Loomer, but sometimes I look at her and think she's like a character in some movie. Like she doesn't even seem like a real. But she's somebody like this have this kind of influence of our cyber command.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
She's right off the movie Poltergeist. Okay, you said it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Yes, there's always been this sort of constituency available to Republicans back then, but it was a small, you know, it wasn't a majority constituency. Certainly it wasn't where the donor community was.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Do you trust the way Congress is being run right now? Do you trust that we're going to get genuine oversight over these decisions?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
And this is everything. You know, it's funny you say this. And look, I don't you know, I'm not going to put my conspiracy hat on. But whether it's the tariffs, whether it's the rapprochement to Russia or whether it's these firings, the only beneficiaries seem to be Xi and Putin.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
And it really wasn't where sort of, you know, if you think about, I always think about most of the American people are somewhere between the 30 yard lines if you want to lay us out on a football field, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
That was a very dangerous movement. I don't think people realize it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Irony, of course, General Milley was appointed by Donald Trump. That never seems to matter to people.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Before I let you go, one of my theses these days is that we have two political parties that are trying to take the place of four political movements, meaning both parties are arguably too big for their coalitions. Can you imagine a day where the Republican Party just split in two?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
There really is only about 15 percent of the entire country is further to the left or further to the right than that, than those sort of invisible lines that I've drawn there at the 30 yard line.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Hello there from Washington and the DMV, as we like to call it, which is not the Division of Motor Vehicles. When we say DMV in D.C., we actually mean District, Maryland, and Virginia. But I'll admit, every time I hear the words DMV, even I, for a second, wonder if I'm talking about the Department of Motor Vehicles But I am coming to you from inside the Beltway.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
There's no doubt about it. And I think that maybe it'll all look more obvious in 50 years when you and I are gone and some historians are figuring it out. But it is a tough place to be in the middle of.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
The thing that is remarkable to me about you is you keep coming back for more every two years. I, you know, some people in your position go find a six year or four year term to run for something else. What keeps you coming back every two years for what is always a multimillion dollar race? You know, fingernail biting, et cetera. What brings you coming back every two years?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
And if you want more detail on that, just go go go go down a Pew Research rabbit hole and you'll sort of see how the progressive left and the and the MAGA right collectively is not even 20 percent of the population. But. Right now you could argue that they're having more than their fair share of influence on the two parties.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Well, Congressman, you've been very generous with your time this Sunday afternoon. And this is what I've, you know, I think I've interviewed you probably a dozen times, but there were always five to 10 minute interviews. There's something about, this is what I've been most enthusiastic about, about moving to here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
It's like letting it breathe, letting people get to know who you are, what makes you tick. I hope you enjoyed it as well.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Well, we want to get a gotcha moment to put you, to make you go viral, right? Isn't that what the whole, no, I'm kidding. I don't know. It's what the whole world's. But I wish you well. Thank you, sir. All right. Enjoy. And I'll tell you, Miami's not going this year to the College World Series, but the next time they do, I'm getting up there and I'm going to force you to buy me a hot dog.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Well, we try to do one or two games a year at the World Series. It's fun. Yeah. It's a great event. I actually did get to go once. It's unbelievable.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Well, as you saw, I ended our conversation sort of where I wanted to begin this podcast, which is, you know, is this the start of a of a larger of a larger breakup or a larger realignment inside the Republican Party? As you saw, Don Bacon, very much a student of history, bringing up the no nothings there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
And it's made me think at this point, especially, this really clicked into my head in 2016, where we really could have easily been a, if we had been a sort of European democracy, think France, which has, four major parties, maybe four people on a general election. Top two would meet in a runoff.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Look, I think it's going to be a lot easier to see in 50 years, as I said during our interview, when I'm long gone. I can't wait to be a political scientist 30 years from now and dig in. sort of to what was really happening here, right, and being able to sort of correctly observe. I don't think people understood what was happening in the 1920s and 30s in the moment.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Now we now know, wow, all of those terrible economic decisions actually led to the rise of Hitler, right? So sometimes, though, you need space in order to see what's happening there. Obviously, part of me wishes people would learn the history of We could learn more with history since so many times decisions, while they don't repeat themselves, they often rhyme with where things are.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
But anyway, I thought – I think it's very clear that Congressman Bacon comes from sort of, as he said, he is calling it the Reagan wing. I think there's plenty of MAGA who want to – Reagan is one of those – they fight over who gets to have them. But I really think –
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
he really gave away to me who he is, but Eisenhower, you know, that that's, you know, the Eisenhower and sort of where I think Reagan came from those sort of nationalist grassroots in the Barry Goldwater era, but he sort of evolved into somebody that was a bit more of an internationalist at the end of the day.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Then he certainly, put it this way, 1980 Reagan was a lot different, I would argue, than 1976 Reagan on that ideological front. So, I hope I hope you enjoyed the conversation. I do think to understanding the dynamics of the Republican Party today, that's as good of a conversation as you can have with somebody who's in the middle of these fights. Keep an eye on him.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
He didn't sound like a guy that might not be that's going to be seeking reelection for what it's worth. But I'll let him make his decision. I'm not going to overread those tea leaves. But I do think if he isn't seeking reelection, my guess is he'll even be more comfortable speaking truth to power on where he thinks the direction of the Republican Party ought to go.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
And here we go with an Ask Chuck question. This one is from Tyler Steffi. He's a current student at GW. So he said it was great to hear Jake and I discuss the basketball program for GW. I'm glad to see he listened all the way to the end and to get some attention for GW revolutionary basketball. But here's his question.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Do you think the latest data for progress poll showing Ocasio-Cortez AOC with a 19 point lead over Schumer and a potential 2028 primary will have any impact on his and the rest of the Senate leadership's current makeup or strategy? Thank you much. Keep up the inspiring work on independent journalism. Tyler, I appreciate the question. Look, I'm going to be honest.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Well, if we were a four party system in 2016, it had Bernie Sanders, sort of the Green Party nominee or the Progressive Party nominee. You'd had Hillary Clinton as sort of the the Lib Dem, if you will, if to compare it to the UK or sort of the center left party. You had a Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio as the nominee for the center right party. And you had Donald Trump as sort of the nationalist, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
I'm a tad skeptical of the of the poll. I'm not skeptical of the direction that I do. I think there's more animation right now in the Democratic Party. I view the poll more as anti-Schumer than pro-AOC. I would be careful assuming that that is exactly how it would play out because I think Chuck Schumer's ability – to connect with Western New Yorkers, upstate New Yorkers.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
It's why he became a senator in the first place. He is not somebody that's been stuck just worrying about the five boroughs of New York City. I think it is so. But to me, I do think the poll should serve as a bit of a warning shot to Democratic leadership that there is...
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
that the status quo is not something people want, that they may be willing to go with somebody that they may be politically to their left, politically they're a little less comfortable with simply because it's time for a new generation of leadership.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
The question I have, though, is whether whether AOC really wants to be just another senator or does she want to use her political influence to shape a presidential race, even if she doesn't win it? Many ways running and losing a presidential race. See, Bernie Sanders can actually give you more leverage in the party than winning a U.S. Senate seat.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
and being sort of, you know, one of, say, 47 to 52, depending on how many seats your party has at any given time and how much influence you have there. So I think the significance of Schumer's performance in the poll is what I am most focused on, less her number, right? To me, it was really about the message to Schumer there. So-
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Again, I think what's going to be more interesting is to see which way she goes. And look, as I said at the beginning in my opener on this podcast, is there – I think the ingredients are there. If we had an infrastructure that allowed for essentially four major parties rather than two, well, AOC would be the heir apparent to Sanders running that one-fourth major party, right, on that wall.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
I think what I'm going to be intrigued about is where how that, you know, right now there's a lot of there's a lot of anger at Trump. But not every progressive Democrat thinks tariffs are a bad thing.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
So how the opposition on the left formulates itself, is it going to be are they going to set aside their own differences or is this going to be a moment where you start to see Democratic primaries that are actually very high profile and have differences? sort of high profile ideological clashes like we've seen on the Republican side.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
And many a Democrat thought that was, you know, the more they saw that on the Republican side, the weaker that made the Republican Party, ironically, and ended up strengthening the Republican Party and strengthening Donald Trump. So I might argue, and I've said it before, that I think the Democrats are
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
would benefit of having a lot of primaries that were similar to an AOC versus Schumer and have them all over the country and sort of get a better sense, get back in touch with the grassroots of their party and make sure there is representative of where the party wants to go, more so than perhaps where the donors want the party to want to go. So
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
I certainly think as I focus on the fracture that I think is taking place on the right side of the political spectrum in this country, a fracture on the left side of this country is almost just as possible. So with that, I will wrap up. I do want to – I was going to use the expression not to sound like a humble brag, but that's not a humble brag. I'm very excited. I have –
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
The nominee of the nationalist party. And perhaps if there's a runoff, it would have been Trump Sanders, or perhaps it would have been, you know, Rubio Clinton. You know, it could have gone in any different direction depending on what the top two were. And perhaps, you know, look, This isn't what we are. We have a duopoly in this country. I think it's a duopoly that's doing a lot of damage now.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
I have Houston winning the whole thing, and I have UConn winning the whole thing. I've never done this before. And, of course, by uttering it now, I am proving, number one, that I'm taping this just before the end of the UConn-South Carolina game on Sunday. And I'm doing this before, obviously, the Florida-Houston game.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
But I am really excited that I might do something I've never done, which is pick both national champs right now. Of course, I can't win any of my – I think I have one family pool I can win if Houston wins. But even if UConn wins, I'm not the highest point total because you'll be shocked to know this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
I wasn't the only one in a couple of the pools that I was in that thought UConn would win the whole thing. But, hey, I just wanted to get on the record with saying – I think I'm on the verge of getting as close that I've ever had of having a men's women's basketball suite. So I'm going to pull a muscle, pat myself on the back. And with that, until we upload again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
I think it's a duopoly that is making the democracy a bit weaker than it ever has. I think in some ways we do have arguably four robust political movements that might be deserving of its own political party rather than trying to stuff two of them into these larger coalitions. And I have this thesis that if we could
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
if you had to create a coalition to attain power, like many parliamentary systems work, or even these sort of hybrid sort of multi-party democracies work, then you would be more comfortable building a coalition to enact power, right? And it would only arguably empower more folks, number one, at the negotiating table.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
But that Omaha district has gone blue, I think, the last... A few times. So we've had these split decisions out of there, but they have voted simultaneously for president and they've elected Don Bacon, a Republican, to Congress.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
And number two, I think you would have, yes, it would be more incremental movements, but it would be incremental movements that were more likely to stick rather than the sort of whiplash that we are getting in public policy that is arguably created or accelerated the instability that we have. The reason I bring this up, because you're gonna hear this
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
you're going to hear from Don Bacon, and he really is. Here's a guy that is filing a bill to try to take tariff power away from the Republican president, Donald Trump. Here's a guy that just wrote an op-ed, very critical of some of the movements the Trump administration's making when it comes to a reproachment to Russia.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
He's been very supportive of Ukraine in the war, in that aggressive action that the Russians took to invade their country. And he's very concerned. And look, he's in that sense, he is being a representative of his area. Omaha and Nebraska in general will get hit hard by these tariffs, very hard. All of the ag states are gonna get hit hard by these tariffs. It's not an accident.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
that Chuck Grassley, the Republican senator from Iowa, Don Bacon, a Republican congressman from Nebraska, are two of the leading sponsors of sort of companion bills that would essentially try to take this emergency tariff power away from the president. He really shouldn't have this power. There's really no emergency out there. He's manufactured this emergency.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
And if Congress has the authority to take it away from him, The question, of course, is when is there going to be the political will, particularly in the House, to do that? I don't want to prejudge the conversation you're about to hear with him, but I think it is something you'll hear. There's a bit of a strategy here. A lot of it will depend on the impact these tariffs have over the economy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
I think the jobs report is a lagging indicator of the health of the economy. But I understand if I were in the Trump administration over the weekend, I'd be trying to use the jobs report as proof. Hey, you know, playing Kevin Bacon in Animal House. Remain calm all as well. Look, the jobs report. Guess what?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
And I really think it does sort of tell you a lot about Omaha in general and sort of where, you know, where there's different wings, if you will, of the Republican Party these days, because I think when you see a guy like Don Bacon get elected and.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Jobs report literally is when you think about it, we always report it first Friday of the month. But it really is. signifying the health of the jobs market as of the 15th of the prior month, right? That's really what it tells you. So this is an indicator of what the job market was pre-liberation day. So this is just the beginning.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Obviously, what the markets do all day on Monday is going to be impactful of some of the political reaction here. But look, politically, I do think, as I said in our little emergency, our first of what may be many emergency pods that we start putting up here at The Czech Podcast, I do think that this is his Afghanistan withdrawal. And
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
You know, this is something it's just like, you know, it's funny. Donald Trump is convinced that fair trade is something that's popular. Right. And when you when you pull fair trade, everybody's for fair trade. It sounds good. Reciprocal tariffs making the case. You know, whatever a country's taxing us, we should tax back. Right. I think fairness is something that's very easy sell. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
But then the impact of it suddenly becomes very difficult to sell because the impact is uneven. The impact isn't what necessarily the rhetoric President Trump is saying is on that front. And the reason I compared to the Afghanistan withdrawal is like very, you know, getting out of Afghanistan was very popular.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
In fact, the Biden administration assumed that they were, you know, as long as getting they got out of Afghanistan, how they got out wasn't going to be a big deal. But it really sort of he never recovered from it because it how he got out. created a competence question about the administration.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
And when you have competency suddenly becoming a sort of front of mind to voters, that is very, it's almost impossible to recover from. You can. You know, Barack Obama recovered from the arguably the incompetency of not being able to get the Web site up for health care. They paid a steep price, but he went out there and sort of owned it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
And they made a very public attempt to bring in the best and the brightest to try to fix it. They sort of leaned into the problem to try to fix the problem. Donald Trump, instead of trying to sell the country on tariffs and explaining his policies, left Washington early to golf.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
I mean, if you were the Democratic Party looking for a visual to use to attack Donald Trump, sort of the let them eat cake moment, if you will, you couldn't come up with a better visual than him rushing down to his golf course, rushing to
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
and you see Democrats carried in a presidential, I think it tells you what type of Republicanism they don't like, because this is a Republican leaning area in general. This is certainly Omaha itself is a 50-50 place. The city for years, they've gone back and forth, Democratic mayors, Republican mayors. It's always been a swing area of the state, but generally it leans pretty Republican.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
play he apparently is there's some senior championship which of course he will be the winner of because it's his own golf club um you know we used to laugh at the north korean leaders who would talk about their golf exploits and now we have our own leader who likes to talk about his golf exploits uh but he's not even attempting to sell or fix this problem.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
And then you have the issue where economists are looking at the math, if you will, that the Trump administration put out and how they came up with the various reciprocal tariffs that they came up with. And apparently, they'd be laughed out of economics 101 classes. So this really gets at a, it's how they did this feels a bit haphazard. And I think it creates a competency question. And again,
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
George W. Bush, Katrina, and Iraq, the combination of those created a competency crisis, excuse me, for Bush that he never recovered from. And his party started to pay a steep price in 06 and then paid another price in 08. This wasn't something that went away after one cycle. I think it's pretty clear that Democrats paid a competency price.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Joe Biden did from the Afghanistan withdrawal a little bit in 2022, although Donald Trump and his bad Senate recruits made it seem as if Democrats survived the worst. But of course, then came 2024. And there just was a there was it They just couldn't get out of that shadow. And that thing just sort of if you recall, his approval rating dropped below 45 and he never got above it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
He never got above it. And I'm pretty confident that Donald Trump's never going to get above 45 because this economy again, either he gets rid of all these tariffs and because he negotiates all these side deals and he doesn't reindustrialize the country and business doesn't sort of bounce back right away because they're not sure if. If Donald Trump's going to change his mind again. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
Or he sticks to his guns because if he does believe in his policy, you are going to need to stick to this for years, not months, not weeks, but years. And there's this horrendous sort of, you know, it essentially you have to. And there are some people that believe this. You have to knock down the house and rebuild it. Right. And when you knock down, you're going to create a lot of destruction.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
So in some ways, you have to destroy the global economy in order to rebuild this sort of singular industrial economy that that perhaps Peter Navarro and some of his other trade advisers are dreaming of. But neither scenario encourages a growing economy. Neither scenario encourages investment in the United States. So it is how he did it. I think he's made his tax cut, put his tax cut in jeopardy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
you know, obviously at this point, I think if he missed, he should have ordered this differently if he really believed in this tariff regime. But now he's made it where even if he passes a tax cut, it's going to have zero impact on improving people's lives, zero impact on getting money into their hands. And if anything, all they're going to see is the cost of everything else go up.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
So whatever cut he may be producing. And the last time he cut taxes, it didn't It didn't cut everybody's taxes. He seemed to he cut corporate taxes more than he cut individual taxes. You know, in fact, for some people, taxes went up, particularly if you lived in in a suburb in a light blue in a state that had a state income tax.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
So I think he has put his entire presidency in jeopardy of being of being an effective presidency. But as always, he's put himself at the center of the story and the center of the debate. But this is going to be a pretty rough ride and we may be.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
I think the turbulence, the one thing I wonder about is the turbulence so great that this is what actually fractures the Republican Party into something that we haven't fathomed. Is this the beginning of splitting the Republican Party into two and you end up having essentially two parties on the right, one that is a business centric sort of belief in a global order
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
But I think what you see here is what I find interesting here is something that I think
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Won’t Recover From Disastrous Tariffs + Will Congress Take Tariff Power From Trump?
and one that is an isolationist nationalist party on that front. And of course, I think once one splinters, the other one could splinter just behind it. So, look, this is just a way to watch this in a macro sense. But in the micro sense, I think...
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
These off-year elections, government workers are sometimes the most difficult to engage in state elections. They're federal government workers, which means they're usually very focused on federal government politics, but don't always see themselves as Virginians. It's been one of the struggles Democrats used to have a lot, and sort of they improved that over the years. I can tell you now.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Federal government workers that live in Northern Virginia are angry. They're on fire. Some of them are no longer government workers, and that wasn't a choice. Some of them took retirement on purpose to avoid the Doge thing, but I can tell you they're very engaged. You go around Northern Virginia, you see a lot of signs of support our government workers, support your government workers.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
I think that makes what was already a difficult political environment for the Republican, Winsome Sears, the lieutenant governor. I think it's it it it puts why I would say of all Democrats, probably nobody had a better first hundred days when you look about their near term goal than Abigail Spanberger. One other note that I want to touch on is Wes Moore.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
And his announcement that he said he's not going to be a candidate for president in 2028 and his decision to say it so early. Well, the only problem poor Westmore has, it's not his fault, but I'm old enough to remember when Barack Obama in 2005 and I think he went on Meet the Press in early 2006 and said he was not going to be a candidate for president.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
And then by the end of 2006, came back on Meet the Press to say, well, I may have changed my mind. So the point is, it's fascinating that he made the decision to announce it. Perhaps that's a way of keeping donors from calling him all the time. Perhaps he's worried that if people think he's looking too far ahead to the presidency, that actually a reelection campaign in 26 might become problematic.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Whatever the reason, perhaps we should just take him at his word. Maybe he thinks his family's too young to deal with a presidential campaign in 28. Um, he's certainly not, you know, he is somebody that has a long runway. You know, it's not as if the moment is gone for him in 2028.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Um, but it's an, if there is no Westmore candidacy in 2028, I happen to believe if he runs, he's somebody that would say is going to be one of the, be in the top tier. But if he doesn't run that short early on, it's a big help to a guy like Pete Buttigieg, right? He's the other veteran in the race. Um, having served, Wes Moore having served.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
We did this interview before Donald Trump sort of flippantly said, well, Maybe kids for Christmas are going to have to go with fewer toys and the dolls might cost a little bit much. I will tell you, that is what I think is going to be the most fascinating part. And I don't want to prejudge the conversation I have with Oren Kass for you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
That was, I think, a big part of his appeal to many people. That could be a little bit of a help to a guy like Pete Buttigieg. And frankly, anybody in the, what I would say is in the establishment lane of the Democratic presidential race, whether it's Cory Booker, Pete Buttigieg, Gretchen Whitmer, but those that are sort of vying for the
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
And no Westmore, that's a whole bunch of donors that are up for grabs. That's a whole bunch of operatives that are up for grabs. So an interesting decision, but I will promise you, Governor Moore, no one's really going to believe you've taken yourself out of 28 until you say it again. After after your your your 26 race, assuming you're successful in your reelection. All right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Just wanted to get a couple of those things off off my little my my notepad of stuff that I keep. Hey, I got to mention this. Hey, I got to mention that my pause for a break. When we come back, my conversation with Orrin Cass. All right. And joining me now is Oren Kass. He is the chief economist and I guess founder of American Compass is their chief economist. I hope I have that correctly.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Oren and former Manhattan Institute fellow. Is that also correct? Also true. which has been a long time sort of economic. How would you describe the Manhattan Institute? It's always been to me where a lot of what I would call center-right conservatives end up, you know, sort of more in line with AEI for those that follow that world in D.C. Is that a fair comparison?
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Um, and, uh, it, it, how would I was going to describe you as sort of the, one of the authors or godfathers of this tariff policy, or at least the initial policy that, that, uh, president Trump rolled out. But instead of me doing it, describe it in your words, what is you, what was your role in this during the campaign and how much ownership do you take of this policy?
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
But if I were in his shoes, I'd be worried that my theory of the case is may never get a chance to to be tested because of the poor implementation by this administration, the haphazard way that they've been dealing with the tariffs and the fact that there's, I think the signal has been sent, everything's kind of negotiable.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Look, the motivation for me to book you was your New York Times op-ed that, you know, You know, look, I'm a skeptic that we can re-industrialize the way you say it is. But the way you outlined how you would have implemented this versus how it was done, you had a very sensible thing. You were trying, you frankly were trying to take into account there would be some shock to the supply chain.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
There'd be shock to business planning. And in some ways you wanted to telegraph everything that was gonna happen, but essentially by six months,
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
It's the impression I got from your op-ed that you were, you know, that none of this, that you would lay it out what it was going to look like, but you would give at least 180 days of breathing room, both for corporate America to plan for this, but also to give room for some trade deals before the implementation. That isn't how it's been implemented.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Tell me how you got here intellectually. I mean, it's just, you know, to think that you were Mitt Romney's domestic policy advisor, this is a guy, and I think he's a, you know, a free marketeer in every definition that that is, probably even more libertarian maybe than most elected Republicans today on, at least on this issue.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
So how did you get, how did you get to where you've gotten intellectually?
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
And if that's the case, then how do you, when does a company decide, okay, I'm finally going to bring everything here. But I do think politically, this White House has done a terrible job communicating the tariffs in general, a terrible job sort of preparing the country, preparing business for this. When you listen to Mr. Cass, there was another way this could have been done.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
One of the few guys- Is the size of our economy, though, over the last- basically since Reagan, right? And you go, and in many ways, the Democratic, you know, this is one of those cases, you know what, you know somebody's won an argument when somebody from the other political party starts making the same argument, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
And so, right, the Democrats have essentially, at least Clinton and Obama, been more on the side of opening trade barriers and things like that. So, and certainly George W. Bush, I think, was part of that movement too, right? How do you, do you believe we, does the size of our economy indicate that that from a macro level was a good idea?
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Meaning like how big our GDP is now and how big and how, frankly, the amount of people that have been lifted out of poverty worldwide, that overall this freer and open trade has been been better for a greater number of people on the globe than not? I understand there have been winners and losers, but on the whole, how would you assess that?
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
But I guess what I would argue is that, so take why was the Republican Party, I would argue, why was the- the Republican Party a bit more pro-tariff back in the early parts of the 20th century, pre-World War II.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Well, American business primarily made its money on Americans and primarily, you know, there wasn't necessarily, and in fact, didn't want to see their business shaken up by outside, by foreign forces. So in some ways there was, It made sense to me that business policy, the pro-business side of the argument, was to make sure American businesses were protected from outside competition.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
But my point is that it wasn't. Right. It wasn't really a global economy, is my point.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
And in an alternative universe, perhaps in a more transparent and methodical way that you try to implement something like this, there may have been more political support. But it actually brings me to where I want to focus most of my opener here, which is Look, I've certainly given this Trump White House a hard time. I think it's been a terrible 100 days for them politically.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
That did not work. That's probably the biggest, right? There's no, the biggest bipartisan foreign policy prediction failure, however you want to lump that in, is just that. Because that was the argument, to give them a seat at the table, WTO, right? That was the argument. Look, the more you introduce the market to China, eventually communism will disappear.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
I would argue the intellectual sort of – the think tank that's trying to put an intellectual wrapping around Trumpism, however you want to call it, sort of this new populism that's on the right. And what interested me on Mr. Cass is that he is basically – He is basically the godfather of these tariffs. Now, he'll be the first one to tell you this isn't the way he would have implemented it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
So I guess the thing that was sort of confusing about how this was rolled out is that it was it felt as if this this terror regiment was it was almost like implemented like a machine gun. You know, it hit everybody when really the real target. I mean, think about what we just spent the last 10 minutes talking about China. Right. This is really about China. This is about China.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
creating a fair trade relationship between the United States and China, the two largest economies. Is there a better way we could have kept our allies on our side on this? And are we risking China? Are we risking the EU ending up cutting a deal with China that we're going to regret they cut?
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
But this seems to be the driver of tariff policies in both parties right now is how do we deal with China?
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
And a lot of Americans seem to agree that that's the case. I think that this White House has another huge problem and blind spot, and that is they only know how to communicate with their base, and they only seem interested in communicating with their base. Own the libs is still seems to be the mindset worrying about catering to the base and making them happy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
But- Well, they arguably have a bigger consumer market than we do.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
No, they don't. But that's always what I would say is in theory, because of the size of their population, that is why so many American companies are fighting for an opportunity in there, because that's the I think I've always believed that's the payday they think they're counting on.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
But how much of our trade deficit with everybody else is just simply we are the biggest consumer market there is?
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Well, we're going to consume more goods from the outside than a smaller country is going to be able to consume of our goods.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
No, well, I understand that's not how it works, but it does seem as if the math on what's a trade deficit. I mean, the fact is we're gonna have a debt.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Well, then walk me through the math here on how you define a balanced relationship when it is not, you know, we're not always gonna have an export that a smaller country is gonna consume at the same levels that we might consume an export that they send to us.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
No, but we did slap a bunch of tariffs on those folks, too.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
But I don't know if you can ever get to the balance. But anyway, go ahead. I'm sitting here talking over you, and that is not what I intend to do. I want you to explain your point of view here. Go for it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
I could argue that this firing of Mike Waltz in some ways is more of a response to the base than it is anything else. I guess he hasn't been fired. I should I should correct myself. He just was simply moved to another position, which you got to, you know, I whatever you think of Donald Trump is at least he's showing.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Let me go back to NAFTA because there's it's clear, right? NAFTA is, Frank, I joke, it's a five letter acronym, but it's a four letter word in places like Iowa and Ohio. And you know this quite well. But there were two things that sort of came out of NAFTA while while the industrial Midwest got gutted. the Sunbelt benefited quite a bit, right? There were winners and losers within it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
And I think this is what makes, I think, trade deals very complicated for the United States because our economy is really diverse, because our workforce is really diverse. You can have these sort of different outcomes. And I think it's a challenge because you're gonna pit one, you may end up, you don't wanna do this politically because this is a trap, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Where you're pitting one region against the other. Let's say we know what NAFTA is going to do to these industrial towns in Iowa and Ohio. I want to focus on those two. I know those two states better, and that's the only reason I'm doing it. Was there a better way to implement the vocational trading?
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Was there a better way to encourage domestic migration, which arguably has been a way that the United States has sort of, you know, people have improved their lives in the past.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
What could we have done differently that would have minimized this impact on Iowa and Ohio that we ended up with without hurting the advancements that have been made in South Carolina, Alabama, Tennessee, the states that have, and Texas in particular, right? That has benefited a lot from NAFTA. So how could we have done this better
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
even if we decided to still proceed along this road of essentially a North America trade agreement, free trade agreement?
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
You know, if you think about what is the actual basis for that was the union arguments at the time, they were just sitting there going, if you don't we don't we don't demand some sort of higher floor on wages in Mexico. This is, you know, as Ross Perot famously once said, the giant sucking sound.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Some loyalty to Mike Waltz, meaning here you got this guy to quit his seat in Congress. The guy who replaced him was literally sworn in three weeks ago, and now he could have been completely out of a job. Ambassador to the United Nations is not such a bad consolation prize. It's no national security advisor. That's arguably the second most powerful job in a West Wing after the chief of staff.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Hasn't this been what the entire 20th century? I mean, you know, the first toys I had were made in Taiwan. Excuse me, made in West Germany. That's always my favorite. I have these little matchbox cards made in West Germany. I saved one because how often are you going to see that these days? Then things were made in Taiwan, right? Then things were made in Japan.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
But the point is, is that it feels as if This has been that this is what an industrial capitalism looks like, right? There's always going to be some place that an industry finds to go to that'll be a cheaper way to make their widgets.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
By the way, I've heard you say that you think people would be willing to pay more if they knew it was made in America. I was raised by a father who, we were the last owners of a Zenith television because Zenith was the last TV company that mostly had its parts made in America, okay? Even then, and I remember, but at some point, it became an impossibility to even do that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Most people don't check that box. I know that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Remember, we used to have the contributing money to the presidential matching committee fund. Sure. That got a little bit more attention. But anyway.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
It's certainly the second best office. But their lack of interest in trying to communicate with skeptics, not critics on the left. They don't want to communicate with their peer critics. That's a White House's prerogative. But if you're actually trying to make a political argument and win a political argument, you've actually got to try to communicate to skeptics.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
It's that they want to- I think you and I both know they may say that, even if they say it in a poll. That's right. But that is not the question.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
So you believe you can still unwind this? Sure. How? Without too much damage to the economy. And I say this, how do you do it without, and let me give you an example. What happens to the Mercedes and BMW factories in the South? Right. And what would happen to a foreign company that wants to make something here in the way you would implement tariff policy?
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
You know, whether it's people like, I think, the folks that are listening to this podcast who may be skeptic of this tariff regime, but, you know... really not happy with how it's been rolled out. It's been sloppy. At least make your case in a more logical way and try to talk to this crowd. And I don't think they've done a very good job of that. And that's the question I have.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
How about low, basically low cost manufacturing, right? Whether it's t-shirts or trinkets or whatever you want to look at. And, but I want you to answer that question. There's a lot of small business owners that are American business owners where they order most of their, you know, here's an American business whose most of their inventory comes from Asia.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
but their parent American taxes, all of those things, they're going to get hurt. And a lot of these businesses are going to go under because they really don't have an alternative. Even, even if there's eventually an alternative way for them to stay in business right now, they're not right. It's, it's the shock.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
They're, they're, you know, our supply chains are really efficient and all of this stuff. What happens to that sort of low cost manufacturing product and the you know, the hundreds of small, thousands of small businesses that are counting on that inventory coming from Asia.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
By the way, are you concerned that your idea here is going to get drowned by poor implementation?
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
I think it's... Politicians are imperfect by nature.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Are they even interested in it? You know, the Trump 1.0, their communication shop seemed to be interested. And Donald Trump did it in his first term, trying to communicate with everybody. In fact, I think the great strength of Donald Trump's candidacy in 2016 versus the other campaigns was that he was sort of agnostic when it came to the media.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
How do you measure, as an economist, how do you measure, there's certain parts of a free trade agreement that is where the benefit is security, which is not necessarily a measurable, right? You can't put a number on it, but look, there's plenty of wars in our past that have been triggered by trade disputes. So this is not an unusual thing, but good relations with a country,
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
on the economic front can provide important security agreements. So maybe the point is, is that a trade deficit might be worth it because of a security trade-off, right? How do you factor that in into your thinking? Because you know that some of that is the motivation for some of the trade agreements that we do cut. Like, you know, I take the Colombian Free Trade Agreement.
The Chuck ToddCast
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I felt like that was one that we escalated and we accelerated. As much of trying to make sure Colombia didn't slip, right? This was a democracy that was on the move, coming towards us, if you will, right? Away from its drug past and things like that. So we were really trying to help them. How do you factor that into your equations of trying to come up with fair trade practices?
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Look, the pandemic, I think, opened some people's eyes where China could have, you know, if they really wanted to make us suffer, they could have, right? And they chose not to because they were suffering. You know, they had their own issues.
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Sure, he had opinions of who he thought was good to him and not, but he was willing to talk to anybody. Um, I guess we were seeing a little bit of that in his decision to say yes to the Atlantic. And that is a reminder. If you can get directly to the president, he'll give you time, even if he doesn't, uh, even if he doesn't like your outlet, because he's got that much confidence in himself, right?
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I think the reality is that the- Well, we certainly want, look, we want Japan in our sphere of influence and not China's. We want the EU in our sphere of influence and not China's.
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Japan, Japan. No, I agree. I think they do. But unless we make it really hard for them, I mean, you know, eventually money, whether we like it or not, you know, it's amazing how how the pocketbook will change a voter's mind. Just look north of the border. Right. In a 90 day period, we saw what happened north of the border.
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So, you know, I don't know if anything should be seen as permanent when it comes to our some of these relationships that we have.
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He believes nobody can get the best of him. He believes he can survive in an interview. Um, And as long as he's getting a chance to talk, he's OK with it. I wonder the question I have, is this a is he surrounded by a press staff that wants him to do that? Or is he surrounded by a press staff that is going to try to prevent him or block him from dealing with violence?
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Shouldn't they get a better deal? In your mind, should our allies get a better deal than those that are either unaligned or adversarial?
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Well, that was, I think, the frustration at first is that is not how the policy was initially rolled out, which I think is why so many of our closest trade partners freaked out.
The Chuck ToddCast
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Do you accept the premise that the more trade there is across borders, the less chance of war?
The Chuck ToddCast
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That's the essential argument critics of this are making, that, hey, look at the post-World War II, right, to now. You know, yes, there's certainly been pockets of, you know, we've had a war here, a war there, but we haven't had a global war, right? Can you credit more open and freer trade with that?
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No, and I'm not trying to dismiss the smaller wars, but we haven't had a world war.
The Chuck ToddCast
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We must not be on the internet. You must not be in the internet. Comically, overly simplified arguments are what make the internet go, Oren.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Well, happy Monday, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Chuck Toddcast. So coming up, I got Oren Kass. Oren Kass is the chief economist and founder of the American Compass. What that is, is basically...
The Chuck ToddCast
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journalists that are neither anti-Trumpers or pro-Trumpers, but are essentially professional skeptics. And I've always said that that's what I believe my job has been when it comes to covering policy, which is okay. Show your work, be a skeptic about it, be intrigued about it, cover it, kick the tires, do all those things.
The Chuck ToddCast
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Well, let me go with this because, look, I think many Americans share the goal of, yes, we want, you know, I mean, my dad grew up in Waterloo, Iowa, and, you know, Waterloo was, I don't like it that one of their largest employers is a casino now, right? It used to be a meatpacking company. John Deere was not far away.
The Chuck ToddCast
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John Deere probably makes as many tractors in China as they do in the United States these days. So I get that, and I'd like to see that. What's realistic? Because you talked about all the different things we could reindustrialize here.
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Obviously, we should prioritize what we plan to reindustrialize because we may not even have enough workers to bring everything back that maybe some people would like to see come back. So be realistic with me here. What's viable in reindustrializing in the United States and what probably isn't?
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Chips would fall into that, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
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It's a national. I think there's a lot of national security woven into that. Right. And so it makes it it almost makes it easier to get the bipartisan support.
The Chuck ToddCast
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And so I think we'll see some some targeted areas like that where basically the entire defense industrial complex, arguably, you know, I you know, we should always want that made everything made here as much as possible.
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You don't think you can separate the two, and that might be a mistake, because the left, what you're arguing here is, Defense is probably one of those areas, whatever, but yes, let's do that, right? But you're saying you don't think you can disaggregate the defense industrial base from the commercial industrial base.
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And so the irony is- Trust me, this is my beef with Boeing, right? I think the reason why Boeing is producing has uneven products, right? Some products work well, some don't, the lack of competition, right?
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You know, when I was growing up, I think I'm a little bit older than you are, you know, we had three or four different plane manufacturers and they did have to compete for defense contracts and the Delta Airlines contract, right? And now there's, you know, there's commercially, there's Boeing and Airbus, okay.
The Chuck ToddCast
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But as a journalist, if you behave as a professional skeptic, then you're more likely to get more information. And I think deliver a better report for the average American on this. But I do think the big you know, he's they've got to figure out how to how to communicate beyond their base, because right now it's not working for them politically. It may make them feel good. Right.
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But on some of these defense things, and I think Boeing has been harmed by lack of competition, right? I think Boeing isn't as good because of it.
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Specifically, it's what makes India a swing country here, by the way.
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If there are things that are better made- So we may not re-industrialize as that much here, but we may limit where- companies do manufacture outside our sphere as long as they're manufacturing in friendly territory, essentially.
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How long do you think it's going to take us to do that? I mean, is that a 10-year project in Europe? And that's realistic is 10 years, right? That is a lot to ask the American consumer.
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I mean, keep in mind- To those of us that studied numbers, yes, I agree with you. But the real world, it's tough.
The Chuck ToddCast
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And so I think- Well, some would argue TPP could have accelerated the isolation of China, but I don't want to start that debate.
The Chuck ToddCast
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We could do that on that. I mean, I look at TPP as one of the great mistakes of what happens when populism- hijacks both political parties. But I always saw TPP, not as a trade agreement, as a check on China. And I just think we blew it.
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And I'm well aware of the time here. I've taken up a lot of it. That is another 45 minutes.
The Chuck ToddCast
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And if that's all the world that they live in, that's nice. But then they're going to get a shock to the system as they already have been when they start holding elections. The way the president handled the waltz situation is interesting. And I think the question is going to be. What should what should we take away from this? Right. It wasn't a total like get out of here mindset.
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China, it's, what is it? Necessity is the mother of all innovation.
The Chuck ToddCast
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Or, and I've really enjoyed this conversation and I didn't even get to, because I know you're also one of the folks that it's an advocate of.
The Chuck ToddCast
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of whether you call it the baby bonus child care tax credit you know there's different names for it but but something to help families to help young families um there's some fascinating policies that i think you know don't fit into the conventional left right um argument that you come down on and i just frankly i love having those conversations and so uh i hope to have you back uh i would love it this was great thank you so much
The Chuck ToddCast
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All right. I hope you have a better understanding of what the of what this tariff plan could have looked like. And we'll see if if you see a course correction or seem to think that we were in the middle of a course correction here and that perhaps not quite a do over, but perhaps the pullback now. let's see how all this goes.
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Does it give him an opportunity to do this in a more methodical way that maybe is slower in the implementation of the terrorists themselves, but actually brings business and brings the public along with? I'm skeptical. One thing Donald Trump doesn't like to do is admit that he made a mistake. And he's been sort of playing whack-a-mole on this tariff business for some time. All right.
The Chuck ToddCast
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Let me get you a few questions here, a little Ask Chuck. All right, this first question comes from Sarah. And she writes, it feels like the guardrails of the executive branch have weakened, especially after the recent immunity ruling and various. Was it always this fragile? Also, what's your take on the rise of resistance 2.0 and whether it has real staying power?
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And then on a lighter note, do you think Congress will ever address the chaos of the NCAA transfer portal? Love all of those questions. Look, you've heard me rail about the executive, the power of the executive branch. Ultimately, The courts are begging Congress to basically flex its muscles. I can't tell you if you go look at any John Roberts opinion.
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He in particular, he seems to reluctantly side with even though he's somebody that seems to always be in favor of of giving more power to the executive or at least when in doubt, siding with the executive. he has been trying to remind Congress that if, you know, they have a role here, if they choose to use it, if they choose to engage. And that's one of the questions I have.
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You know, poor old Reince Priebus was fired by tweet and was essentially it appeared essentially abandoned on air after Air Force One landed at Andrews. Now, I don't think that's the way he felt at the end of the day, but it certainly looked that way. And that certainly seemed to be a look that the president back then didn't seem to mind.
The Chuck ToddCast
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I'm a believer that everything is cyclical in American politics. And if you look in presidential elections, you know, we regularly pick a president who, with the trait that we, you know, we pick a new president with a character trait that we think the last president was missing.
The Chuck ToddCast
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Well, I think one of the other cycles we could go into after the, you know, I think there's a lot of exhaustion from the, from the, from, from giving so much power to the executive branch that we may get a Congress that will finally, at some point, a bipartisan Congress that decides, you know what, let me go reread the constitution and go look at article one and strengthen the
The Chuck ToddCast
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Congress's role on everything, especially with the way these tariffs have gone. It could be that tariffs is finally the straw that that sort of breaks the legislative back of Congress and finally gets members of Congress to sober up and take back control of the power that they already have. All they have to do is actually stop handing emergency powers over to the presidency.
The Chuck ToddCast
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You know, whenever they can't decide, it seems they kick the can to the presidency. And this is like I said, you can really this arguably began when all this trade authority was handed to the presidency in the early 90s, both the Bush and Clinton. Then 9-11 happens and more. executive authority was handed to them by Congress. And then Democratic Congress gave it to Obama.
The Chuck ToddCast
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Republican Congress gave more power to Trump. And we've seen it go over and over. This has been a now quarter century of this. At some point, there will be a movement of congressional leaders in a bipartisan basis that I think shifts this back. As far as your other question about resistance 2.0, look, I think we're going to see a thousand flowers bloom.
The Chuck ToddCast
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I do think you're going to have some that's going to be extra resistancy and you'll see the protest and you'll probably see Bernie and AOC sticking to that world. Cory Booker, I think, is certainly establishing himself as more of a resistance Democrat. Ditto with Chris Murphy. But then you got your Gretchen Whitmer's, your Andy Beshear's.
The Chuck ToddCast
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And then a guy like Pete Buttigieg, who I think believes his brand is not a resistance brand, that his brand is some way of a new kind of politics brand. Does the resistance get strong enough that it spooks those who are trying to be more unifiers from pursuing that message or not?
The Chuck ToddCast
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Or is there an appetite even inside the Democratic Party for the type of nominee that is less antagonistic and a little bit more unifying? We'll see. As for the NCAA, look, I think it's inevitable. Congress is going to get involved. Universities get way too much federal funds for there not to be a technical reason for the federal government to insert itself.
The Chuck ToddCast
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But a lot of members of Congress, you know, this college sports is parochial to them. You know, Mitch McConnell got very involved in getting Louisville into a major conference for the longest time. Louisville was not in a major conference. He tried really hard to force the Big 12 to take him, and eventually he seemed to get the ACC to do that. So plenty.
The Chuck ToddCast
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Mark Warner, when he was governor of Virginia, basically hijacked the— The Big East breakup where Miami, Boston College and Syracuse were going to go to the ACC. And he basically forced the University of Virginia to veto that move unless Virginia Tech were also brought aboard.
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So the point is, it's good politics to protect your university from something, you know, from getting them sidelined, particularly in sports. So the point is. It's inevitable the Congress is going to get involved into this NCAA mess. The question is, when does that happen? Not if it happens, Sarah. All right. I'm going to do one more question. I've gone long, but this is one about the media.
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The fact that he gave Waltz a sort of a consolation prize, I think, shows that he would like to have some loyalty. And it's probably smarter, right? If you don't do that, who knows who Waltz may talk to? Ask Pete Hegseth what it's like when you fire former staffers and what happens when they start talking to the press. So I am intrigued by the decision that they have. And they have this extra...
The Chuck ToddCast
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It comes from Jeff Paul, and he says, does the media go too deep or far back into the backgrounds of political candidates and department nominees, thus causing, quote, normal people to avoid public service? Do we really need to know the high school nerdiness or that they drank in excess to excess in college if those are no longer issues with a person? Look, the answer, Jeff, is I agree with you.
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In fact, he did a New York Times op-ed, which is what inspired me to put him on. As I've promised to you, even if I'm skeptical of an idea, that doesn't mean I don't want to have somebody on here making their case and let's workshop it and, you know, let's have a back and forth. I think the conversation that I have with Oren Kass about
The Chuck ToddCast
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You know, I do think one of the things that I feel like has changed is that after, you know, we sort of overcorrect, right? So for the longest time, men in power who were taking advantage of women were just not getting punished. Right. And so then we went and said, no, enough of this. Right. Whether it's Harvey Weinstein, et cetera.
The Chuck ToddCast
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Now, it seems as if our culture has decided, all right, did we over cancel people? Did we cancel people too quickly? So you're starting to see a pullback there. We're probably going to see an overcorrection. Maybe it's too lenient. We're probably have it. You know, I don't think the public wanted, you know, sort of the the the culture of Pete Hegseth either and how and how he thinks about.
The Chuck ToddCast
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women in combat and women in leadership roles. But I think the fairer point that you have is that, look, when you have a democracy, it's of the people and all humans are flawed. I know plenty, you know, I always joke, one of the reasons why I'd never want to run for office is that I don't want that kind of scrutiny and I don't want to do that to my family.
The Chuck ToddCast
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It's not fair to my family to get that kind of scrutiny. And that's a bummer, right, that that's what you have to think about. You know, when you run for office, it's just not you who you're putting out there. Your kids could become targets. Your parents can become targets if they're still alive. Aunts and uncles, colleagues at your work.
The Chuck ToddCast
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So I would say that social media certainly weaponized personal biography in a way that is ugly and that is likely why we have. the people who are willing to run for Congress right now, right? You sort of get what the culture allows. And so if you, if the quote normies don't want that and the non-normies are like, I don't care, let's, you know, I'm going to be who I am.
The Chuck ToddCast
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And, you know, whether that's a Marjorie Taylor Greene or somebody else that you have as your avatar for that. for that kind of candidate. Yeah. You know, I, I, I do think that, but here's the problem with the quote unquote, the media. I think, I think responsible journalists do have lines they won't cross.
The Chuck ToddCast
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The problem is, you know, with oppo research these days, if somebody wants to politically try to kill a nominee using, using, you know, some ugly stuff in their background or with their family, even if a mainstream journalist says, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not going to troll in that garbage. There's always some influencer who's willing to do it.
The Chuck ToddCast
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And now that we have such, you know, that there is, there is such a culture that rewards this, you know, it's going to, it's, it's going to be up to those in power to decide that they're not going to allow, allow that kind of politics to win or the voters to, to do that. And, you know, it's,
The Chuck ToddCast
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You know, I do believe these things over time, the culture will reject it and we'll decide, you know, we don't care anymore. There was a time where the public cared if public officials smoked pot. Then Bill Clinton said, I, you know, I did it, but I didn't inhale. And they were like, OK. There was a time Gary Hart was sort of forced out of politics because of because he had an affair.
The Chuck ToddCast
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Bill Clinton got caught having an affair and people rallied around his defense. And now you've got Donald Trump where we've decided that personal character is even less of a of a of a. of a criteria to, to, to be president. So, um, I do think in some ways culture dictates this more than anything.
The Chuck ToddCast
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So, you know, I wonder if now that we've gotten over this sort of over-canceling under-canceling all of this business, do we see a surge of normal people suddenly come into the political system running for office? That's, um, That is neither sort of outliers in character. And maybe they're a little more comfortable saying, hey, that's none of your business or leave my family alone.
The Chuck ToddCast
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They had this extra job that they hadn't filled because of the narrow House majority and the decision to pull back the nomination, which, of course, U.N. ambassador was originally supposed to go to Elise Stefanik. But what's interesting, and as my one of my producers, Lauren Gardner, put it to me, says, I hope you can keep track of all of Marco Rubio's titles right now.
The Chuck ToddCast
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And for the most part, people will do that. So, like I said, I think this stuff cyclical. I'd like to think we're going to get back to some sort of equilibrium that maybe we realize, look. Is the person qualified and do they have the character and temperament to do the job? Ultimately, those those should be, you know, character and temperament are a big deal to me.
The Chuck ToddCast
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And in fact, many times I vote as much on character and temperament as I do on substance or ideology, because, you know, give me somebody with high character, even if I disagree with them. And ultimately, I know I'm going to be OK. Give me somebody with low character who I may think I agree with all the time.
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And that makes me nervous because what are they willing to do in order to keep power or enact power? So ultimately, I'm a person who believes character and temperament should be arguably the the the number one criteria people take people use to decide who should be president. But. That is not the majority opinion these days. All right. I'm going to end things there.
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I hope you enjoyed this episode. Good news is I'll have more coming later this week, including a couple of people who have run for president before on both sides of the aisle. With that tease out of the way, I'll see you soon until we upload again.
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He is the Senate-confirmed Secretary of State, but he's also the acting administrator of the USAID. He's also the acting archivist, and now he's also the National Security Advisor. Now, a lot of people are making Kissinger comparisons because the last person to hold both Secretary of State and National Security Advisor was Henry Kissinger to Richard Nixon.
The Chuck ToddCast
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And that'll be an interesting question, whether— Rubio keeps this for a while or whether the president decides to reward Witkoff, his sort of personal negotiator from around the world, his special envoy for everything. Right. It wasn't just one thing. He sent him to Putin. He sent him to Iran. He sent him to Israel. So I think right now Witkoff is sort of his personal envoy.
The Chuck ToddCast
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I can tell you from my understanding is that Marco Rubio really has earned a lot of trust Donald Trump. You know, when you start to look at why, why was Waltz sort of pushed out? Was he pushed out because of the Jeffrey Goldberg signal incident? Or was he pushed out because MAGA never trusted him anyway, because he was a well-known sort of conventional or traditional national security Republican?
The Chuck ToddCast
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What do I mean by that? Somebody pre-Trump, right, where the Republican establishment was pre-Trump. Now, Marco Rubio is somebody that I think a lot of people, including myself, would have put him in that track, even the way he the way he ran the Intel committee with Mark Warner when they were one would be chair, one vice chair, depending on which party was in charge.
The Chuck ToddCast
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Seemed to also indicate that he really was sort of more on the conventional side of where of American foreign policy, which which I'd say center left and center right, you know, both share share that philosophy. But as as people have told me who are close to this situation, that that the more time that Trump has spent with Rubio and Rubio had proximity going for him. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
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Obviously, we know this was a nasty primary fight in 2016 and there was no love lost between Marco Rubio, little Marco and Donald Trump and the hands comment, all that business. But that over the four years, Rubio became, you know, worked really hard to regain Trump's trust. Now, for some of you, that might be a huge turnoff. Some of you might think he's just being a hypocrite. And you know what?
The Chuck ToddCast
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the tariffs as they've been implemented versus perhaps how he would have implemented. We'll see. Look, it's a tough argument to make, which is you got to sort of take some medicine for a while before the goal of what these tariffs are, which is to return some manufacturing back to the United States. It's going to take a while. And the question is whether you can
The Chuck ToddCast
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None of us know the motive for sure. But he became secretary of state not because Donald Trump thought he owed the establishment wing of the party somebody to give a place to. He gave it to him because over time he started leaning on Rubio when it certainly came to do with anything having to do with policy, foreign policy in Latin America.
The Chuck ToddCast
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I mean, Donald Trump doesn't make any decision on Venezuela without running it by Rubio. And it was the case towards the end of his first term. So. I won't be surprised if this relationship of national security advisor and secretary of state is something that lasts a good six to nine months, which in a Trump White House would be a long time.
The Chuck ToddCast
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Remember, he went through four national security advisors in his first term. He went through four chiefs of staff in his first term. So you're looking at about, you know, you know, every nine to 12 months, some sort of shift or change here. What's what's interesting about all the titles that Marco Rubio has is that it also gives Donald Trump flexibility.
The Chuck ToddCast
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So we now see what he was willing to do with Waltz. Well, I don't want to totally kick him out of the administration because you never know if you create an enemy. Well, let's say he finally comes to the conclusion that Hegseth just can't manage the Pentagon. Well, now there's three titles he essentially can take away. Hegseth is Senate confirmed.
The Chuck ToddCast
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And so if you want to make him the national security advisor, he could. I don't know if that's what if Trump wants Hegseth around that much. But maybe he gives Hegseth the administrator of AID. Maybe he hands him the archivist role. Maybe he gives him an ambassadorship.
The Chuck ToddCast
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But I wonder if this is going to be the new pattern of Trump, where he finds a place when he decides someone isn't working in a position rather than create an eventual source against his administration, which they're very paranoid about leaks, that instead you find a place within the administration, you keep this person in the tent. Just something I'm going to be watching for.
The Chuck ToddCast
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And one thing we do know is Donald Trump doesn't like to feed the media beast. So even if he makes a decision to get rid of somebody, he'll delay it a little bit just in time. So it looks like it's his decision. He doesn't want to look like the press pushed him on this.
The Chuck ToddCast
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The uncomfortable aspect of this waltz decision is that it does seem to be a victory for Laura Loomer, the person who came in and seems to have encouraged President Trump to do purging. And this is a question of whether who's allowing her to have his ear. Now, maybe if he wants her to have his ear, there's nothing Susie Wiles can do about it. Or there's maybe Mike Waltz did try to stop her.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
And that was part of the problem. But it's my understanding that Loomer essentially has been doing vetting of any national security staffer. And if they have any connection to people like Pompeo or Cotton or anybody she has deemed to be anti-MAGA in the foreign policy world, it has gotten those staffers ostracized.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
And I'll tell you this, while he may have kept Waltz at least in the circle by giving him the UN ambassadorship, Um, some of these other staffers, uh, are not going to like how they were treated, uh, and on this. So that's just something to watch for there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
A few other things I want to clean up from the, uh, the weekend, including the last time I spoke to you and I talked about the first hundred days of the Democrats. I left out one other, you know, I think it's no doubt AOC probably of all the Democrats who are worrying about it for their own first hundred days. She probably had the best first hundred days.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
But there's another Democrat that arguably had as good of a first 100 days and maybe even a better one. And that's Abigail Spanberger. And some of you may say, who is she? She is a former member of Congress who is the the essentially the Democratic nominee for governor in Virginia, an election that's going to be held this cycle. So why do I say she's a huge winner?
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
Well, number one, the more unpopular a first, you know, the more unpopular a White House is in their first year after a presidential election, the better it is for the opposition party in the state of Virginia. We have seen a remarkable pattern, something in like eight of the last nine Virginia gubernatorial elections where the party in the White House has lost the gubernatorial race in Virginia.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
get enough patience from the public to put this off and whether the theory is right. You know, can you really motivate certain industries that have decided to manufacture outside the United States to come back? Is there enough incentive to do that? I think we're all about to find out, obviously. Now, a little point of order here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
The most recent example, Biden wins the presidency in 2020. Republican Glenn Youngkin wins the Virginia gubernatorial governorship in in 21. Donald Trump wins the presidency in 16. Democrat Ralph Northam wins the governorship in 17. So. Now throw in Doge and Elon Musk, and I will tell you, Spanberger, the question isn't whether she's going to win this race, barring some unforeseen event.
The Chuck ToddCast
Tariffs Gone Wrong? - Trump's Trade War Backfire
The question is going to be whether she can win it by such a large margin that she changes um she dramatically changes the makeup of the state legislature not a lot of swing districts in either the assembly or the state senate but she could have a large margin of victory because she's got a secret weapon in her hands and that's government workers when you follow virginia politics
The Chuck ToddCast
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The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
So just something to keep an eye on, something worth watching. And then finally. Every time I think cable TV news can give regular, give us professional sort of news journalists a bad name with some of the nonsense that happens, particularly among primetime cable shows. Apparently, we still have nothing on sports cable commentary.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
The absurdity and the ridiculousness of the Shador Sanders commentary by people. Look, he's not the first draft prospect to drop down. He's not the first draft prospect. zu haben, dass Teams nicht zufrieden sind mit den Ausgaben, mit anderen Dingen, die er bringen kann, die nichts mit seinen Talenten zu tun haben. Er ist nicht der erste. Viele Leute sind vorher verloren.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Was wir herausfinden werden, ist, wie schlecht Sanders uns das will. Und wenn er es schlecht will, bin ich für ihn, aber ich bin sorry für all den Weg, wie der Kommentar ging. Perhaps the Sanders family brought a lot of this on themselves. That may be. But there's a lot of sort of cheap media antics, people trying to get clicks and all of that stuff just by saying Sanders, Sanders, Sanders.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
So when you look at those, all of the actual metrics that Forget before you get to polling, like where the actual economy is, where the actual things are. It's you know, the public's being rather logical about this. They're not happy. They don't like what he's doing. The biggest thing is, I think the Pew poll did better, frankly, than anybody else.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And then I say this a bit selfishly, because the number one overall pick is my boy Cam Ward from the University of Miami. And the lack of attention, the lack of focus, the lack of anything having to do with him, but instead following the circus that was Das verarbeitete Zirkus von allen Dingen, Shador Sanders. Ich denke, es hat sich von vielen anderen Athleten entfernt, die vertreten wurden.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Nicht viele werden vertreten. Weniger als 300 werden vertreten. Es ist eine Ehre, das gemacht zu haben. Und es ist zu schlimm, dass mehr dieser Leute nicht gefeiert werden konnten. But instead, everybody was obsessed and focused with trying to see who could say the most outrageous thing that would get social media buzz during the 36 hours that was the NFL draft and the Shador Sanders watch.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
All right. So with that, we're going to sneak in a quick break. You're going to get Dan Goldman first and then a little tease of my TED Talk and a great conversation with Dave Wasserman. Enjoy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
A big part, big chunk of his district is Manhattan. Mr. Goldman, good to see you. Great to see you, Chuck. Pleasure to be here. Hey, let me, one of my favorite things that John Stewart did in the early days of the, no, Stephen Colbert, excuse me, in the early days of his late night was get to know a congressional district.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And New York is such a, you know, New York City is such a series of, you know, hundreds of neighborhoods. Tell me your, even I don't know the specifics. I know you're in Jerry Nadler's old district. I know that's mostly, that's got some Upper West Side, but everything got redrawn a little bit. Tell me your district. You know, just give me the New York City highlights of your district.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
By the way, I've got a Zabars mug. There you go. That I'm drinking out of right now. So a little bit of local business love for your district.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And that was the reason I spent so much time in that Pew poll with you, is I think they did the best job of helping to explain. While the public still shares his goals and would like to see him succeed on the promises he's made, there is just widespread belief this has just been poorly executed. An administration really that's more about incompetency than anything else.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
If we just counted private equity with Wall Street, would you say you're the wealthiest district in the country?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Your district too big. And I know geographically it's not, but you get what I'm saying when I say too big. Do you feel as if it you look, I'm somebody who thinks Congress is too small. Yeah, I know that's not a sexy topic, but I'm somebody who thinks we doubled the size of the house. People would feel a little more connected to government.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
You you're actually outlining an interesting district to me in that. Boy, you've almost got conflicting communities of interest. And that's not easy for a member of Congress. You've got to pick and choose who you represent, when you represent, etc.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Before I get into your wheelhouse and frankly what a lot of people are going to want to hear your take on, which is the current various legal situations. What was the biggest, what was the most surprising learning curve that you had becoming a member of Congress?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
This is the gang really that can't shoot straight in here. And so this is not good at all. So the first 100 days have been a failure. The question is going to be, what are the next 100 days? They need to get some trade deals. They need to get some points on the board right now. They claim all these people are knocking on their door, making calls. So far, no deals have happened. Not one.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Let's move to your wheelhouse. And that is this phrase, rule of law. What did it mean to you before you worked on the impeachment and that you've been in this sort of, we've been in a very politicized legal environment. Let's just leave it at that, right? We can go in deeper here. But before your experience with the sort of
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Die Verbindung von Politik und Gesetz und legalen Themen in der Flucht der Trump-Ära. Was bedeutet denn die Regelung der Glauben zu Ihnen? Und was denken Sie, wie viel sollten die Leute die Regelung der Glauben heute mehr über die Regelung der Politik beurteilen?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I think at one point, one of them, one of the spokespeople for the administration said 90 deals in 90 days. That was a possibility. But one thing you've got to understand is this administration wants Probably more than any other. Look, you always expect representatives of the administration to be saying, putting everything in the best possible light.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Bring up something, yeah, go ahead. No, no, no, go, because I want to, yeah, now.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I'd argue six of our first ten amendments are some basically are about this, are about giving people equal justice. I haven't done the counting, but it is... I mean, if you look, the 4th, the 5th, the 6th, the 7th, the 8th and the 9th all really have to do with your legal protections.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
What makes us different? There are a lot of countries that have laws for citizens and then laws for non-citizens. And those are the countries that people don't invest money in. Those are the countries that people don't travel to. You don't feel secure.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Are there, now that you've been in this a term and you've seen sort of this, essentially we're politicizing the law and one could argue that If laws are being created by political figures, then there's always some politics to the law. I think we could both agree upon that. But are there some things that we never codified, that Trump took advantage of, that we may have to codify some things?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Give me some on the high level that you think the next time Democrats have a chance that, hey, we've got to... Because I assume, right, this is my optimistic side. I have this take that we're kind of sort of replaying the early 20th century. Robber barons, broligarks, partisan media in the late 19th century, partisan media. This time we're all trying to there was a muckraker showed up.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
But there's best possible light and then there's sort of this, there's a point where I think these spokespeople are losing credibility. Marco Rubio, I think, is losing credibility. Scott Besant, if he's not careful, is going to lose credibility. I mean, this is one of the quotes he had from Sunday shows in game theory. It's called strategic uncertainty.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
We had an independent journalist. You had we gave, you know, women got the right to vote, direct election of senators. People are talking about some reforms of democracy. So I am of the mindset that the people are going to. We're going to create some new laws and some new guardrails and some new frameworks, because we're not going to want to have this happen again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Now we have to decide what that is, right? We're probably not, I think we're probably, you know, one more, you know, five more drops in the stock market before you get some more consensus on this. But give me a few that you think, boy, we never codified this norm, because you're talking about a lot of norms.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
What's something we may have to codify to protect ourselves from a future elected leader that may practice demagogic behavior?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
You know, I'm of the mind that he hasn't technically violated a Supreme Court order yet, but it feels like it's inevitable. The Supreme Court is going to rule one way and he's going to attempt to behave another. We just don't know what that looks like yet.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I mean, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
By the way, we in the media enforced it. When Barack Obama rolled his eyes at the emails with Hillary Clinton, it was we in the press that said, hey, are you putting your finger on the scale while your Justice Department is doing that? He backed off. Right. Right. George W. They back. You know, we saw this Bill Clinton.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
So you're not going to tell the person on the other side of the negotiation where you're going to end up. And nobody's better at creating this leverage than President Trump. Essentially, that was him on trade and on these talks, not just with China, but with other countries. But you have to sit here and say to yourself. Really? Strategic uncertainty? That's what's good for? No.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
All of them were tempted to, especially those that are those presidents that have legal degrees. Right. They believe, well, I got it. You know, let me tell you how I would handle this. And they've gotten their hands slapped and they, you know, before Trump, they accepted it. Right. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Ich meine, Trump hat gerade einen exekutiven, semi-innocenten, ja, die, die ich ehrlich gesagt dachte, waren in der Regel, hey, ich bin gespannt auf seine Meinung, richtig? Einer davon, dass ich eigentlich, ich denke, es war, ich denke, das Publikum deserved to know what the president thought.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Strategic uncertainty is why this economy is tanking right before our eyes. It's why nobody wants to buy a house or put a house for sale. Strategic uncertainty? He knows better, but he's trying desperately to speak to dear leader. So it really is one of these things where I think we've seen and I've, look, I've beaten this dead horse a few times.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
You literally will get thrown into jail if you don't abide by a subpoena. Strengthening that aspect of it. Because the real outrage to me is just that. Wait a minute. We're paying your salary. And the legislative branch is issued a subpoena. You work for the executive branch and you're just going to ignore it like you just like that. That feels like that shouldn't be.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
You shouldn't have to go to court to then decide whether the U.S. Marshals or the Capitol Police come over and either escort you to testify or escort you to jail. It should be. You shouldn't have to do that step. Is that fair?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Let me dig in on justice a minute. Why is it part of the executive branch? And I say this because I wonder if If we're just trapped in sort of this, where here we are, the chief law enforcement officer only belongs to one branch of government, which seems odd to me, right? Should we set up justice like we have the Federal Reserve, which is it's certainly presidential appointed. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
But and we attempted to do this with the FBI. And I think unfortunately, we've let this slip where all of a sudden now FBI directors are expected to just resign when there's a new president. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I thought CIA, FBI, Fed, like I always accepted the idea that we're certain. agencies that were on five-year terms just for that reason. Let me outline an idea.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I've spitballed here about justice. That the top six positions at justice Can't all be have been appointed by the same president that you somehow figure out staggered terms for the various deputy AGs and the AG itself. Maybe it's five year terms and each year another five years so that there's always some form of at least while not always bipartisan.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
but that you have multiple presidencies, just like with the Fed, right? The Fed governors have been appointed by multiple presidents, so you do have contrasting points of view. You know, should we rethink how the Department of Justice is politically populated?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
This administration, Trump 2.0, is not a continuation of Trump 1.0. Trump 1.0, Mike Pence, Reince Priebus, Jared Kushner, those three gentlemen did a lot to create guardrails and have personnel that knew what they were doing. And in hindsight, I think all three of those gentlemen deserve a lot more credit for their time in government service than they got at the time.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Which is where there may be more corruption, frankly.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Take the idea of when the Justice Department comes in to oversee a police department and what should trigger that kind of oversight. I accept the idea that there may be an ideological disagreement over when that should be triggered, when federal government should have oversight. I accept the premise that maybe you have some of that can change via administration.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Understandably, politics is a rough business. But boy, when you look at the big difference between 1.0 and 2.0. It's pretty plain to see. Just a few other things. Look, I've got an extra supersized episode for you. I've got Congressman Dan Goldman.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Well, we know what Trump wants to do, but then how do you... So defend Garland and prosecuting of Trump. Ich meine, ich weiß nicht, aber du hast meinen Punkt. Ich denke, das ist der scharfe Fluss, den wir alle haben. Du hast gerade das Thema der Befragung deiner Gegner aufgebracht. Und ich denke, Donald Trump war sehr effektiv in der Lage, sich als politischer Mörder zu machen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Während seiner Präsidenten-Hiatus, seiner Exil, was auch immer man es nennen möchte. Und ich denke, es gab einige Leute, wo du gerade darüber gesprochen hast, wie wir andere Länder betrachten, wo And I think this was a dilemma. I guess looking back now over the four years of Trump in exile, was there a better way to have tried to hold him to account than what was attempted? Yeah, impeachment.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Well, that's that's yes. OK, it's funny you said I look at it. Our founders knew. Using the regular legal system for a president or a high or a powerful political figure was going to be complicated, right? The impeachment process, frankly, is a genius idea if everybody agrees that that's the proper venue to do this. And it's funny you bring that up, because I always came down like, look,
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
He was impeached twice and he got off twice. I don't know how you use the regular legal system after that and hope to be successful.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
They knew. I mean, look, you read the Alex. Look, I know you did. I'm obsessed over all things Hamilton when it comes to the judges and impeachment in general. And they knew it would be politicized. Even then, I mean, to their credit, they saw that it would be politicized.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
They knew that impeachment could be factionalized, but they still thought it was a better outcome, a better venue than a traditional court of law.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
He, of course, was the chief counsel on the first Trump impeachment, decided to get into politics and is in his second term representing a big chunk of New York City. So we spend a little bit talking about the law, talking about is there a better way to appoint the Justice Department? Is there a way to depoliticize the Justice Department, take it out of the executive branch?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I loved the premise. Right. Now, in hindsight, it turns out that when you've been a federal judge for as long as Merrick Garland has... You're probably not qualified to run the Justice Department. And I'm sorry to say that. I mean, he was I think now we look back him sitting on his hands for two years, essentially allowed Trump to use the campaign, the candidate playbook on him.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I mean, just look at Trump. They knew that they were going to trigger a special counsel, which is why he announced as absurdly early as he did for president was to force Garland's hand. Now, of course, had Had Garland decided to investigate Trump before Liz Cheney did, we might be in a different situation.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I was just going to say the impeachment process is over. Look, I thought the Ukraine case was strong, but let's be honest, January 6th was stronger. If not January 6th, then when? I mean, you know, what else is there? And by the way, your case on Ukraine continues to get stronger. The way, I'm sorry, the way he is strong-arming Ukraine again is, with this capitulation to Russia.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I mean, my goodness. There's a part of me that believes I'm not going to sit here and go down the is he an asset or not. It doesn't matter if he's an asset. His behavior is similar to one that would be an asset. I actually think he just views Zelensky as a political opponent. And so Zelensky bad in his mind. And he's almost punishing Zelensky for endorsing Biden in his head.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Whether that's actually what he did. You get my point.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I'm somebody who thinks we should be treating the attorney, the appointment of the attorney general and the deputy attorney generals and all of those folks should be much closer to how we handle the Federal Reserve. Yes, there's presidential appointments, but it's not easy for a president to fire a member of the Fed governor, although he may try. We'll see.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
He wants his own oligarchs, right? He sees how effective a oligarch is. And by the way, he's not the... Look, if we want to talk about the McKinley years, he aligned himself with business interests at a time when the industrialists were the most powerful people in America. So it's actually not even a new thing for America. It's just a new thing for our generation.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Dan, I never thought, I always used to joke, well, nobody from New York City can get elected president. Because nobody in the rest of America is going to believe a rich guy from New York City knows what it's like for my dad, who grew up in Waterloo, Iowa. And he was one of those who think those people think they're better than us. Screw those New Yorkers.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I will tell the fact that my dad's old hometown, as big a Trump supporters as they are, is is one of those incredible sort of developments that, you know, you're you're. It is the greatest trick the devil pulled, type of answer.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Maybe FDR, maybe. And even he had some detractors in his own party, but really not since FDR had this kind of power.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And if you had a situation where there were five year terms so that there was always some sort of potential overlap with a previous administration, regardless of party, but a previous administration, I think you could see only way to restore any sort of integrity the way, if anything.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I mean, you know, I've my listeners are pretty sophisticated, so they know what a discharge petition is. And I had Don Bacon on early about two or three weeks ago. And I had asked him about the idea that, hey, you know, because he's one of the Republicans that introduced a bill to try to essentially take away Trump's tariff power here to declare the emergency over.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And I asked him and he says, well, you know, I don't know if we're going to get. But now I believe within him announcing, you know, launching that bill. Correct me if I'm wrong. You Congress is since you're not allowed to use that discharge position on tariffs, correct?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Or this Congress, whatever it is, like your hands are tied for this Congress for some reason, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Let's just say very questionable, this very questionable legal authority there, which I am curious, because the state of California, I think, is going to sue on this. And I'm curious to see if you think they have a case.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
This Justice Department is doing more, I think, to ruin trust in the rule of law, the politicizing of Eric Adams, the politicizing of the D.C. U.S. Attorney, constant politicization of what's going on here. You know, if this, you know, supposedly Donald Trump ran against politicizing the Justice Department and if anything, he's decided to weaponize.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Oh, wait a minute. So we literally, this has always been a running joke, I used to say, you know, because the U.S. Senate regularly has done this, where they can declare, they can essentially declare what day of the week it is at any time they want to. So this is Congress essentially stopping the passage of time
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
If you can't laugh at it, it would just make you shake your head. I mean, the absurdity of that is amazing.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
So what day of the week is it, by the way, when somebody says that bill and, oh, sorry.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
So here you are within only a handful of votes of the majority. What can you do in the minority right now other than sound rhetorical alarms?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Ja.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
He's like, oh, yeah, if I thought Biden weaponized things, he's going to. After him, I'm going to... also tack on an interview I did with the Cook Political Reports, Dave Wasserman. I've seen enough Dave Wasserman, if you follow him on social media. They have rolled out the the Cook Political, the Cook Presidential Voting Index, by Congressional District. They call it their PVI.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
So in some ways you're saying the best role you can play is essentially talking to those swing district republicans.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I think they're afraid of a lawyer who knows how to answer questions.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Let me get you out of here on a couple of Democratic Party issues. Finish this sentence. Democrats want to win in 2026. They should be talking about what?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Nun, er muss all diese Dinge im Gericht verlieren. I mean, that's the thing. I do believe the irony to Doge is it will cost the taxpayers more money in bankrupt companies that sue the government for contract breach. You know, all those things. And then you'll have pain and suffering. I mean, I do. I'm convinced that over the next 10 years.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
that the amount of lawsuits that pile up due to AID-canceled contracts that were illegally canceled, things like that, that Doge will end up costing taxpayers money, not saving them.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I know I got to get you out of here, but I got to ask you this, because I have a lot of constituents that live in your district who tell me, are you really telling me my choice for mayor is going to be Andrew Cuomo, who I think has disgraced himself, and Eric Adams, who I also believe has disgraced himself. I know that this is politically tough and it's your party and all this stuff, but
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Because the Pew-Poll-Preview that I gave you a couple of episodes ago essentially was repeated by everybody else's poll in the New York Times, Washington Post, CNN. Everybody has essentially found the same thing. This first 100 days for President Trump has not gone well at all.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
But do you understand why many constituents of yours think there's got to be something better than Cuomo and Adams as the choice for New York City Mayor?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
What I hate to see happening is that running for office is becoming a way to rescue your reputation, is a way to almost launder a bad character. I mean, I'm sorry. Look, it's a free country and anybody can run and voters can decide. You know, I'm old enough to remember David Duke versus Edwin Edwards and the famous bumper sticker. Vote for the crook. It's important.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
You know, so every once in a while you do got to vote for a crook because the alternative is, you know, Joe Biden had that great saying, right? Don't judge me by the almighty, judge me by the alternative, which I think is why so many Democrats close their eyes to Biden's
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Essentially, it's how Republican, how Democrat any district is. Two, three, four points on one side, two, three, four points on the other. For you true data nerds out there and house race campaign junkies, Wasserman and I get a little bit of a head start on that. But before you hear from Dave, I'm also going to be giving you a brief Vielen Dank.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
failings because they kept saying but trump right like you know they kept seeing well trump's crazy so this stuff can't be that bad and it's like no that stuff can be that bad you're sort of blind over here but but i understood how many people around biden came to that conclusion not because they were looking at biden but because they were judging him against trump right
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Genau.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Ich glaube, ich vertraue den Votern im Endeffekt.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Yeah, they're a little more plugged in. But, you know.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Er hat keine Verantwortung für seine persönlichen Verletzungen. Ich bin für Vergebung, aber du musst die Verantwortung zuerst nehmen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
All right. Dan Goldman, I kept you longer than I think I said, so I appreciate it. I was told you're a lousy fantasy football player. Is this true?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I love playing that Easter egg. I'm not going to even explain it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Well, especially if you're a Giants or Jets fan, because you need to have winning football somewhere. And it ain't on the real gridiron, right? Exactly. All right, my friend. It's good to see you. Great to see you, Chuck. Thanks so much. Thank you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Untertitelung des ZDF für funk, 2017 And if AOC decides to run for president in 2028, and I think that looks more likely, well, then it's a wide open Senate race. And who knows? Dan Goldman has a lot of resources. He's got some family money. So just something to keep an eye on. Ja. was still functioning the way the founders would want it, we wouldn't have 435 house districts right now.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
We'd have 881. That's right. If we were expanding the house at the rate that we expanded the house all the way through 1930, with every census, we didn't just reapportion districts, we actually expanded the number of districts around the country. This was the subject of a TED Talk I gave over the weekend. You can look around all my socials. and see the whole thing if you'd like.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
We'll probably be posting it on YouTube as well. But the bottom line is, I know some of you think, why do we want more politicians? Why do you want more people in the House? Well, here's the short answer. People feel disconnected from Washington like never before. Most people think, don't know what their congressman does.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And most members of Congress don't represent an entire congressional district anymore, because they don't have to. They just represent a faction. These districts are nearly a million in population. And all you have to do is win a small slice of that million and you don't even represent anybody else. It's why so many people feel unrepresented. That was not the intention of the people's house.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
This thing should be won per 400,000. And by the way, if we had that, we'd probably have 150 swing districts for my man Dave Wasserman and I to be breaking down in our next segment. But we don't have that yet. But it is something I hope you take a look at it. I hope you understand. Again, you may think, oh, we we can't have all those members of Congress running around Washington. We can't.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
You know what? Yes, we can. And actually, the messier democracy is in the House, the more it's actually small, the democracy. All right. With that, enjoy this interview with Dave Wasserman. And joining me now. ist the man who many of you know as Mr. I've seen enough.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
If you've followed Dave Wasserman on any election night, not just the election night, any election night, as I like to say, if it's Tuesday, somebody's voting somewhere. And perhaps the one person... who's looking at the returns as they come in on those nights is Mr. Wasserman. Dave Wasserman of the Cook Political Report with Amy Walter. Good to see you, sir.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Thank you. Well, you know, you guys have been entrepreneurs for a long time. You've been in this space for quite some time. I don't think people realize it, but I mean, you know, when you think about people talking about small business, do you think of your job?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
The House of Representatives is not nearly as small be democratic as it was nearly 100 years ago. Up until 1930, we regularly expanded the House with the population because we never wanted congressional districts to get out of hand. So later in this broadcast, I will give you my plan of how we can fix the house.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Das ist fantastisch. Das ist fantastisch. Ich meine, es ist sort of the rise. I mean, before we get into, I mean, the reason I have you on now is you guys have unveiled earlier this month your updated Partisan Voting Index, which is really as good of a tool as there is to at least beginning the handicap process of House races. And even in some cases, it helps with some other issues.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Some other handicapping, it gives you an idea of how states are shifting and things like that. And we know that the two parties use the PBI to essentially determine some of their targeting. But before we get into it, what... To me, you're on the front lines of seeing the level of granular interest in politics in America. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I mean, think of just go back 16 years and think about the people that called you and now think today on this. I mean, is this really like we have? How much do you think we've mainstreamed interest in political handicapping?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Oh, I mean, this is obviously, you know, this is my obsession. And, you know, I I think about the hotline and, you know, back when I was there and I don't know what we would have done if there had been no local political journalists.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And if we fix the house, it would actually fix the electoral college and probably minimize gerrymandering. One act of Congress, no constitutional amendment, nothing like that, just a simple act of Congress. Actually going back to what the founders had said was necessary for an actual democracy to be effective. That's all Congress would have to do.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
You know, one of the things that I always appreciate is when I'm able to get on the ground somewhere and you actually get a feel for a community. And that's harder than ever. You know, it's what I when I first started consuming Almanacs, I go, you know, one of the things, by the way, you want to talk about geeking on the Almanac. I'll never forget the first time I got my hands on a 72 Almanac.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
You learn a little something about the community, but everything was based in sort of what happened post segregation. Und es war diese unglaubliche Transition. Und was ich immer sage, ist, dass du es eigentlich nehmen könntest. Es wäre viel Spaß, wenn die Almanac mir nur Alabama 1 über einen 40-Jahres-Prozess geben würde, einen 50-Jahres-Prozess. Und du lest und du siehst.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Und natürlich können wir mit AI jetzt wahrscheinlich das tun. Du kannst fast diese riche Geschichte erzählen. Aber für mich hat das Verständnis, wie eine Gemeinschaft wirklich von der Grunde her funktioniert, mit den Verletzungen geholfen. Wie kriegst du diesen Sinn mehr?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Wenn du keinen lokalen politischen Reporter nicht hast, der dir die Erinnerung gibt, dass es früher eine Fabrik hier war und das ist, was die Leute hier tun. Das Art von Sache. Wo kriegst du diese granularen Informationen außerhalb der Almanac in diesen Tagen?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
You know, I had Jake La Turner on my podcast a few months ago because I was obsessed with the idea that here's this guy at 36 deciding not to run for reelection. Didn't really have a reason. You know, he wasn't getting chased out with a primary. Certainly his flavor of conservatism is a little bit different than the than the mega world.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
He was sort of in the Sam Brownback wing of the party in Kansas. But he talked about this issue of. So for instance, his district butts up in the Topeka media market, but Topeka, the Capital Journal, shrunk its footprint. And they don't really cover the continuous. They just really cover Topeka proper. And it gets at what you're just describing.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And we'd solve our problems with the Electoral College, our problems with gerrymandering. And maybe people would actually think that Congress represents them. Speaking of this weekend, it was White House Correspondents Weekend. And look, let's be honest, it was an awkward weekend for a number of reasons. Obviously, you had the Trump administration trying to trying to exploit the weekend.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
As he said, the biggest town, I think, is Pittsburgh, Kansas there. And everything is shrunk there. And this has been one of his frustrations, is that literally... He cuts down trees in the Ag Committee and no one's there to cover it making a sound, right? Other than his release to his constituents. And it's a big enough problem.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
He said the civic community in Pittsburgh was trying to figure out, maybe we should buy the local paper. Maybe we should try to fix this. Like, More and more people are aware, even in the mid-sized to small business community, that these sort of markets that we're describing, right, not in the major metros, but just outside, they're just not getting the coverage that they should.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I have a very big fear of this. I mean, in fact, this is the stuff that I'm worried about competing against. If I'm successful in being able to pull this off and be able to scale up an expansion of local news, that a local publisher who's actually using ethical means to cover and wants to be a straight up news organization.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
How common is this now in these congressional races that you're seeing this in?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
No, I was talking, referring to the Superpex starting their own fake news organizations.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I know that in the... DMFI, you spoke in lingo there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And then you get sort of the blogger who pops up, who may be a reporter. Maybe they're getting compensated, but you don't know for sure, right? That's right. We've had that for a while. That's true. And they somehow are always home to opposition research. Hey, look what I got my hands on. All right, let's get to the, you know, we've played around enough here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
They're desperate to try to make the media look like they're part of the opposition with the Democratic Party. This has been a campaign tactic of Donald Trump and his aggressive right wing for some time. One of the reminders I'd like to tell you is whenever some partisan tells you somebody's biased, just remember, They're a biased person.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
How are you deciding how competitive a house race is for this upcoming cycle? I say that because if you do the math based on your PVI, it's obviously the smallest field of swing districts we've had in our adult lifetimes. Is that fair to say?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
But a bad trade for... Is that a good... Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
So they moved the most, but those are not competitive districts. They moved the most into Trump's direction, but not really, is what you're saying.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And the last person who has the credibility to decide what's biased is somebody who's blatantly biased. And so I will tell you this. Whenever you see a cabinet official or a Trump official avoid answering a question by attacking the press, it means they don't have a good answer to tell you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
You know, one of the things I remember thinking about after the reapportionment after 2020 is that while I can point to extreme examples of gerrymandering in specific states, that in totality, it actually is probably the fairest reapportionment we've had in 40 years.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Isn't Ohio supposed to be one of these?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And keep in mind, the only reason... Because they're suing over saying that they're not following the ballot initiative, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
So that more than DeSantis is rejiggering? Because that was the other argument that actually DeSantis may have saved the House majority.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Everybody can take credit.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And you should be insulted when you hear that stuff, because they're refusing to actually deal with the subject at hand. And I hope more of my colleagues in the press go in and say, look, attack us all you want. I don't care. Just answer the goddamn question without attacking the press. Actually answer the question, because guess what?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Yeah. Well, it's sort of a nice in some ways. I sort of I'm glad for that. Right. Which is because the process has sort of there's balance in the force. That's all I'll say is that, you know, and I've always saying, you know, I don't know what your thoughts are on gerrymandering. I'm obsessed with doubling the size of the house. That's a that's a.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I'm going to actually do a TED Talk at some point about it, believe it or not. But I'm obsessed with that issue. But in this sense, it's sort of, and this always happens between the two parties, right? When one grabs an advantage, the other one figures out a way either to neutralize that advantage or participate in it in the same way.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And we're at one of those moments where I think we're at an uneasy equilibrium, right? in den Hauskriegen, wenn man will.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Let's talk about how do you use special elections to influence how you look at the house map for 26?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
At least half the country thinks what you guys are doing is terrible. So why don't you try to make your case and convince them it's not as terrible as it looks? The inability of some of these elected officials to to only use the crutch of attacking the press, I think, shows you the limited intellectual capability. Some of them actually may have on that front.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I was just going to say, is this a repeat of 2017? Have we basically seen this movie before and it's going to end the same way?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
We can do the quick top lines, but look, the economy, if you think about it, in the first 100 days from when he started on day one, What's gone better from him? Only one thing has gone better. And that's the border. The economy is worse. The world is more unstable. Government trust is worse.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
There's a lot of state government workers that live in our district. I know it a little bit. I've got some relatives that live in a neighboring district. So there's a little bit of that in there. And they're going to vote. They're going to show up.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
So how do you so, you know, you look at your PVI and you look at the, you know, relatively narrow band of what would that if all things were equal, what the number of swing seats would be. And you think about the sort of whatever you want to call it, that the Trump penalty. Right. With Trump not on the ballot. You know, how much you know, how. Can you put a number on it?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Is it five points across the board? I'm curious if that's how you look at it. Is there certain things you look for in a district? For instance, Florida 1, which I'm very familiar with. I have a lot of relatives that live there. The Escambia County result is a big deal. I think it could be the first time a Democrat has carried Escambia County in a federal election since 2006. And
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Something I didn't realize was how many government worker that it was the the largest number of government workers in that district than any other in the state, which obviously with the naval base and then you have a lot of a lot of the economy is is based off of the defense industry in general and obviously connected to that base specifically.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
So I guess the question is, you know, how much do you look at the Wisconsin result and realize, OK, there is a there's about a five point penalty here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Und dann, weißt du, wie viel, und dann wird es, glaube ich, von Stadt zu Stadt, wo, hm, irgendwo, wo es eine Militärbasis gibt, muss ich ein bisschen mehr Aufmerksamkeit zahlen, obwohl normalerweise nur fünf Jahre, zehn Jahre her, hätten wir gesagt, es gibt einen Republikaner, der sich zu diesen Votern lehnt. Das könnte nicht der Fall sein in diesen Tagen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Wie benutzt du diese Makro-Analysen, die wir alle gesehen haben, mit Trump nicht auf der Wahl gegenüber der Spezifikation?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
But the other awkward aspect of the White House Correspondents weekend. Er sagte, es hat sich immer aus der Berührung gefühlt. Hier sind wir mit einer Ökonomie, die nicht nur langsam wird, sondern es kann sich in eine Rezession verändern. Und hier ist die Washington Press Corps, mit so vielen Eliten, wie sie sich überzeugen können, zum Abendessen in Black Tie. It is an awkward look at best.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I don't know what you're talking about, Dave. I don't know it at all. That's a very, it's very true. It's sort of, you know... In the, you know, early retirement post-COVID world, yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
When I think of kind of... Yeah, there's a district off of Lake Michigan where a bunch of Chicago people, I guess now, are full-time residents, right? I forget which district it is, but it's one of those up there that has made that area a bit more competitive, yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
But there's a big obviously the Air Force Academy. And we know that there's a lot of right. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Obviously the other phenomenon that's going to impact your world and your life of handicapping is going to be the retirements. I look at Kim Reynolds, and even though that's not a house race, I look at Kim Reynolds because of the effect it could have. She chooses not to run for re-election in Iowa. Already you have I think all three of the four Republican House members there have been floated.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And I assume anybody who can run statewide in a swing district that slightly leans Republican is probably looking at it quite seriously. Because they look at this environment. I mean, if I were an Iowa Republican, in the first, second or third, I would sit there and say, hmm, winning statewide might be easier than winning in my district.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Yeah, you know. No, I'm curious. I mean, look, I'm I said to somebody, if I were in a coma and didn't wake up until the day after 26 and you told me Democrats won the Senate and the House. I'd say, okay, there must be a Democratic Senator in Nebraska or Kansas, right? Like that is, it feels like those farm states, it's a double whammy for them, right? The cuts in AID were already painful.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Throw in the ag tariffs and all of a sudden you have a recipe for a potential disaster in those states for the Republican Party.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I do think that the Washington Press Corps should be able to celebrate itself every year, but maybe there's a better way to do this. Does it have to be black tie and elites? Can it be something different? Can it be something a bit more open to the people? Who knows? But I think celebrating journalism, celebrating those that are doing it right, is a good thing.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And Kansas about a decade ago got uncomfortably close for Pat Roberts. And we know, like, I'm convinced that Kansas is on its way to swing state status. When I say on its way, it may take... It's like watching Virginia in 04, right? It may not happen the next cycle, but...
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
You know, there's a lot of elements in Kansas that have a little bit in common with some of these states that have shifted, right? You have some bigger university towns that are expanding. You have a couple of metro markets and then you have that Kansas City market that has sort of expanded out into those Kansas City suburbs of Kansas. And you're like sitting there, you're like,
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Hey, warte einen Moment, wir haben jetzt 16 Jahre demokratische Gouverneure über die letzten 24 Jahre. Irgendwas ist hier oben. Sie werden sich besser fühlen, als ein zweijähriges Staat zu sein. Und wenn man sich anschaut, weißt du, ich bin eher schuldiger für Demokraten in Kansas, als ich wirklich in Nebraska oder Iowa, ehrlich gesagt.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Don't you think in the uniparty state and the one party states, not uniparty, excuse me, the one party states. Like you see this over time, right? Where, you know, I always say, you know, politics abhors vacuums. And in one party state, the vacuum is the opposition. And if the other political party can't be the opposition, then other movements become it, right? We're seeing that in Texas. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
There seems to be a really big split there in the Republican Party. It hasn't yet accrued to the benefit of the Democrats. But look at who controls the House. Right. It certainly changed the nature of the speakership in the Texas House. We've seen it get a Democrat elected governor in Kansas. You've seen it even, you know, these in Oklahoma.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
It made a race competitive because the the tribes became the opposition party. Right. You know, and they sort of play in primaries and they play sometimes in generals. Right. I, you know, I feel like we see this a lot in one party states where a fracture.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And I don't know whether it's just inevitable, right, because politics abhors those vacuums or if it's something specific in the moment that we're living in.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Although Kansas has a Hispanic population that's over 10% of the, it's, you know, it's a sneaky. I remember when doing the states that had 10% or more of Latinos, this was a decade ago. I remember being surprised that Kansas had, I think, snuck into the top 10.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I'm curious about that, though. How can Texas create more Republican seats though? Are they going to run into problems? Yes, you have the benefit if you have to add seats. I think Florida and Texas is going to have a hard time guaranteeing them to be anything more than an even split. Just because of the way the population has grown.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
But doing it the way we're doing, I think, just only makes it easy to weaponize sort of elitism against the press, which is something we ought to fight against, because most people of the press are not elites at all. If anything, you know, the elites are about two or three people. They're like the media owners. In fact, the biggest problem with this weekend is that many.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Palm Beach County in particular. Palm Beach County is fascinating. It's been moving right. Obviously, I think Trump literally has attracted voters to move to the county.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Yes.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
No, it's it's it is fascinating how they're all packed in. That's why. So maybe Florida is easier than Texas would be for them to do this. If you because outside of South Texas, which I take your point there, you know, the the additions are going to come like between Austin and San Antonio. Right. And and that area. I just don't know how much.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I mean, they did the hub and spoke of Austin, which helped them. But can you hub and spoke all these major metros in Texas?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
So, yeah, but that's far out. It is. We talk about this on the Republican side. California. You know, they're the sort of the big one party blue states. It's not as if they seem healthier or safer. Ironically, I wouldn't want to be an establishment Democrat in California, for instance, this coming cycle, even though you certainly wouldn't want to be a Trump Republican either. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I feel the same way about New York with Hochul and things like that. How are you seeing those those bluer states that Sie sind sehr allergisch zu den Trump-Republikanern, aber Sie können die Art von, ich weiß nicht, wie man das nennen kann, Art von Fatigue mit der konventionellen demokratischen Führung fühlen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Well, I was just going to say, how concerned are House Republicans about losing guys like Mike Lawler to statewide races?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
No, it makes a ton of sense to me. Let's talk about these 25 elections, because there's always been this interesting historical... I guess Canary, if you will, with the Virginia State Assembly and the following year's makeup of the House.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Of the many of the organizations that pay for all these parties, they're part of the problem. They're the ones not standing up for the First Amendment with the Associated Press. They're the ones not that are telling their reporters and correspondents to hold back, not ask tough questions because they're afraid of.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Given how, frankly, uncompetitive most of the seats are in the State Assembly in Virginia, it's still a head scratcher to me that it has served as such a good barometer. But do you expect it to be a barometer we ought to watch again in 25 as a way to tell us a little bit about 26?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
You know, when some Sears does not strike me as somebody that can win voters in northern Virginia. Abigail Spanberger strikes me as somebody who's not Terry McAuliffe. And I'll just leave it at that. Right. Going to be very hard to make seem like some just, you know, outside liberal. You know, this feels like Ralph Northam all over again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
What happens when you lay off a bunch of government workers in Northern Virginia? Does that make them more likely to vote?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
You're signposting this. When you say tomorrow, we're talking on Tuesday, April 15th. So on Wednesday you're going to be speaking. Yeah, go ahead.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Ich verstehe die Angst, ich verstehe die Verantwortung der Verkäuferinnen und Verkäufer. But boy, am I insulted when you spend a bunch of money this weekend claiming that you're fighting for the First Amendment, when many of these companies have done nothing for the First Amendment this year, as this administration has gotten aggressive. A few other notes from the weekend that I wanted to get.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Um, That's one force in New Jersey and the other one is obviously no Trump and all of that. I actually find New Jersey is going to be in some ways more telling to me than Virginia. Virginia If Spanberger doesn't win by double digits, then something is wrong. And I'm being a little, maybe 8 or 9 is still an impressive victory and I shouldn't sneeze at that. But I'm with you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
All the ingredients are there for something that could be a wipeout. It could be what McDonald did. People forget, Bob McDonald won by like 30 points. Remember, it got... 58-41, yeah. Okay, not 30. But close to 20, which is a... pretty tough thing to do for a Republican. I still can't imagine her crossing 60, but still, anything over 55 is going to be impressive.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
New Jersey has those counter things to it, right? And that's what I'm very curious to see how that plays out.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Basically, New Jersey was not a small, the Democratic State. Hard stop. OK, exactly.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
The power of those two winning, I think, might beat back this developing conventional wisdom on the left that that the Democrats shouldn't tap a woman for 2028. It'll be interesting. I'll be very curious how that conversation changes if what you just described happens.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
You know,
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Alright, I'm going to wrap it up here, but I'm going to start, you know, when, you know, everybody's going to want to know, is a wave developing? And my answer on these things always is, you actually don't know about a wave until October at the earliest. We can talk about all the ingredients you want early on. Do you agree with that, or is there some early sign that
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
that we will look back on and say, we should pay attention to these early signs.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
No, it's the October of the election year. I feel like you really don't know because it can feel wavish and then everything, you know, then turnout patterns go back to normal. And yes, there might be a three or four point advantage to one party, etc., etc.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
I don't want to get out there. As a Floridian, I pay a lot of attention to what's going on with the Florida governor, Ron DeSantis. And as you know, a couple of weeks ago, when there was those sets of special elections out there, dass das, was in einer der Hausreise in Pensacola passiert ist, dass es nicht war.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
20 Seeds?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
which would be a huge shift given how narrow the House majorities have been, frankly, over the last six years now. Dave Wasserman, I could keep going and we will do this again. I'd love to check in with you every quarter, almost like a quarterly report. And it feels like, well, you're like, hmm, Democrats have a chance at higher earnings over here and Republicans have a chance at lower earnings.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
So there you go. I thought coming up for the first hundred days, why not have a super sized episode? I hope you enjoyed it, especially you house race and campaign junkies. You know, a little Dave Wasserman. It was always a lot of fun, even this early in the process. And guess what? You know, he'll come back. We'll have more of this. I have a great week of shows coming up. So don't miss it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Catch up on on those that you haven't caught up on, especially if you didn't. Hier der Episode over the weekend with Alex Gibney and how essentially we now have legalized political bribery, whether it's on the state level, city level or the national level. It is something we've got to be dealing with. And again, our democracy is pretty broken in a lot of places.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
There are a lot of fixes that need to be done. I gave you one idea in the middle of this thing with the TED Talk. Gibney's got some ideas as well. But the bottom line is, one of the things you can expect from this show is focus not just on politics in the moment. But actually, what can we do to rebuild and remodel the American democracy for the 21st century?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
So anytime I can spend some time on that, I am going to spend some time on that. So with that, I appreciate the fact that you got to the end of this episode. Thank you. Be sure to like and subscribe. And I look forward to talking with you on the next episode. Until we upload again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Du weißt, es gab definitiv eine Art Frustration, besonders in Escambia County, das ist eine County mit vielen Regierungslehrern, die nicht lieben, dass die Regierungslehrer etwas ausgetauscht haben. Aber es gab auch eine wachsende Resistenz an den Regierungslehrer, an Ron DeSantis. In der Tat, einer der leitenden republikanischen Kritiker repräsentiert die Pensacola-Area.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And this has been the person that's been Alex Andrade, who's been investigating what is clearly some sort of questionable government relationship with the First Lady, Casey DeSantis' non-profit, Hope Florida. There's a lot of questions, a lot of hiding of money. Money's fungible, but... How did they end up with government money?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
When you think about the things ultimately that he was elected to do, restore some trust and integrity in government. That hasn't happened. Things are worse. Make the economy better and bring down prices. That hasn't happened. If anything, prices are going to be going up. This economy is more unstable. We just had the worst March housing report in basically since the pandemic.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And then that government money was then laundered to be used as, again, a political campaign on the marijuana initiative. There's just a lot of questions on this. But here's the big picture. The big picture is that it's pretty clear that Florida Republicans are not afraid of Ron DeSantis anymore. I'm not sure there's any Florida Republicans left that support Ron DeSantis in the elected leadership.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
As I had a Florida Republican lobbyist tell me a couple weeks ago, he said to me during the session, boy, it's cute, Ron DeSantis still thinks he's governor. Look, he's got the title and he's got some power, but he's got a legislature that is not interested in helping him one iota. He has got, I think, a Republican Party that is ready to move on without him.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And I think Ron DeSantis has found out what happens when you, again, and I said this before, when you borrow somebody else's base, you're stuck with somebody else's base. And he borrowed Donald Trump's base. He never established his own base. He thought he did. He sort of mistook popularity during Covid as popularity for him. And his policy was popular, but he wasn't.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And the fact is, he's sort of always been an uncomfortable politician when it comes to interacting with other people. He is, you know, this is... He doesn't seem like somebody that enjoys campaigning. He doesn't seem like he's somebody that enjoys people. He's always in a defensive crouch in every interview, even when it's a friendly interview. So
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
There's just a possibility that he actually this was probably not the career path he should have chosen running for elective politics. Perhaps Casey DeSantis should have. Maybe she should have run the first time. But he is going to if he is hoping to clear the field for her. Aber ich denke, dass Ron DeSantis ist... is on his way to someday being a potential footnote in Florida history.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
Somebody who just starts fade away, fade away, fade away. Now, the irony to this is even as Ron DeSantis gets weaker, it's not like Florida Democrats are benefiting. It's very similar to what we're seeing in the national polls, right? Donald Trump is unpopular. Donald Trump is seen as incompetent.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
But it's not as if there's a lot of confidence that the Democrats are ready to pivot, that the Democrats have a message. And I think that that's probably going to be for a while. You know, this is one of those things where both things can be true, where the public believes this Republican Party doesn't know what it's doing and they don't trust the Democratic Party to do any better.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
This is the time when you'd say when, you know, when someone like me wonders. When is somebody going to be thinking about splitting the difference here, trying to run as an independent or just not running with a party label? It is notable to me that the Senate Democratic Leader in Florida, Jason Pizzo, decided to leave the Democratic Party. He was the Senate Party Leader in the minority.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Weaponization Of The Justice Department + Is A Blue Wave Building For 2026?
And he just believes the Democratic Party is dead. He may end up running for governor as a third party. We already have Mr. Morgan and Morgan, John Morgan, hinting that he could run as a third party. But I could easily see him deciding to bankroll somebody else running as a third party or running on the political party that he was trying to start.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Great to see you. It's been a while.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
to mention that he keeps using our name. You know, when we named the site Lawfare, which was back in 2010, this was a very specialized term. And now Donald Trump tweets about Lawfare. He you know, he he's decided the word means. Yes.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Yeah. Litigation against him or it's any litigation he doesn't like is lawfare. And so he keeps you know, it's like somebody tweets out Ben Wittes all the time. And it's it's it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Yeah. So you would think that if the notion of human liberty and rule in a society of ordered freedom had any meaning at all, it would be that when you have been you know, you're you're living here, you're you're Your deportation case has been adjudicated six years ago, and the immigration courts have said you can't be deported to El Salvador.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
You would think that if the notion had any meaning at all, it would mean that the government can't arrest you apropos of nothing with no criminal allegation that you did anything wrong, stick you on a plane and send you to a kind of supermax prison in the one country that they are not allowed to deport you to without anybody, without a judge ever hearing about it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And your wife only finds out about it because the head of DHS goes and poses in front of your jail cell for a picture. You would think that that's what it would mean, but apparently not.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Correct. That is their interpretation. So the word that the district judge used was facilitate. And the genuine complexity here is, let's say.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Well, so the Supreme Court says the district court said facilitate and effectuate.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And the Supreme Court says, be careful with the word effectuate, because that implies that the court can order the government of El Salvador around. It implies that the court can order the outcome of a U.S. foreign policy thing. And the president kind of runs foreign policy. So be careful with the word effectuate.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
But you but you're certainly within your rights district court to order that the government facilitate his return. So the district court turns around and says, OK, you have to facilitate his return. And the government interprets the word facilitate as order. In exactly as you said that if if the government of El Salvador wanted to send him back, we wouldn't erect domestic obstacles to that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And Kristi Noem actually or Pam Bondi even said we would send a plane.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
uh that is not if you read the supreme court's ruling i think what the supreme court had in mind which is they were saying basically we want to be careful of ordering around a sovereign foreign government and ordering the mechanics of the way the president interacts with that government but the the government clearly screwed up here and it's totally reasonable for the court to try to get it to correct its error
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
No, I think this is very much the order I would have expected from this Supreme Court, which is... Okay, let me stop.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So, to be fair, I think there is the Supreme Court. The conservative justices here do have a... quite legitimate, in my view, care about getting interfering in the way the president conducts foreign policy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Correct. And particularly in foreign policy and national security matters. So I don't have a problem with that, actually. And I think if if John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett want to say, you know, you know, the district court is wholly within its right to demand a remedy here. It's got to be a little bit careful about how it does that. That doesn't bother me a bit, actually.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And it cheered me, in fact, that nine justices of the Supreme Court agreed on the premise, which is, A, this is Not OK for this to have happened and be that the district court has some real latitude to require a remedy now. We're because. the district judge, whose name is Paula Sinas, has been pretty aggressive about doing that. The Justice Department is now appealing the matter again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And you'll see, we'll see this time around whether the Supreme Court means something as narrow as what the government interprets it as having said, and I don't believe that will happen. Or whether it's going to give her some latitude to say, hey, when I said facilitate his return, I mean, you got to do some stuff to get him back.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So I think the first thing is something. Right. So what what's happened so far is nothing except that the president met with the Salvadoran president in the White House and the two of them made fun of the court's order. Right. So that's what's happened so far.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So I think if you were going to satisfy the Supreme Court that you were facilitating, you would probably have to do more than zero and then mock And by the way, bald facedly lie about what the Supreme Court did.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So, look, if you were dealing with a normal administration, what you would expect would be for a official to either come into court or file a declaration that listed all the steps that they had taken and said, I mean, you've read a hundred of statements. these executive branch declarations. Here are the steps we've taken to comply with the court's order. Here is the results that we've gotten.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
We're planning to do the following things. And this is what the judge has asked for. And I think if you did all those things, first of all, if the president asked President Bukele to send him back, They would. The Salvadorans don't have a particular interest in detaining this guy. But the hard place...
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
would be if you did all those things, you went through that pro forma exercise, but then you also had a wink and a nod understanding with Bukele that he would say no. And that would put the court in a very difficult position because all of its formal boxes would be checked. And yet the guy, but short of articulating something that you've done,
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I don't think you can actually go back to the district court and claim to be in compliance with the order and expect the Supreme Court to accept that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
The updates are the first day. First update is he's alive. And in this Salvador and Supermax and the subsequent updates are we have nothing further for you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Because they're also doing the same things with the law firms. And so the law firm issue is, and they're extorting hundreds of millions of dollars in legal work from these firms.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
If they chose to. Might think about it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And like the AP, the firms that have gone into court have won in a matter of hours, right? So you... You know, no, no firm has gone into court and challenged one of these executive orders and not gotten a temporary restraining order in a matter of hours. The Justice Department has not appealed to these, meaning that they actually know they can't win. And yet law firms keep capitulating and.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
uh making these extravagant promises to the executive branch and why are they capitulating for exactly the reason that you just described which is that the the president can screw them and there's nothing they can do about it just like he's doing to the ap now you can freeze it out with a freeze them out with a wink um and if you're one of the firms that challenges this right
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
You know, good luck getting a meeting on behalf of your client with the senior levels of the Justice Department, say, before an indictment.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Yeah, I mean, and you can say with respect to the press, the press is in a relatively weak position. Very weak, 100%. Vis-a-vis the administration.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Because they are wusses. And because hundreds of millions of dollars in law firm revenue is on the line. And it is one thing when you are playing with other people's money to take risks. But, you know, law firms are organized as partnerships.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And that means that every dollar that the law firm of X, Y and Z doesn't bring in is, you know, 33 cents from X, 33 cents from Y and 33 cents from Z. And so they are really looking at their own pockets here. And, you know, the only thing to do about it is to shame them. But they're in a much stronger position than journalists who represent actually an industry in a somewhat precarious position.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
A lot of them are not healthy organizations. These are the powerful acting like the weakest of the weak.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
No, I think the law firms are making different calculations than the universities. Look, I think it's great that Harvard did what it did. I think they're going to pay a price for it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Yeah, a two or three year price and one that they're going to have to litigate over because they're going to have to litigate.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
But well, but they lose again. There is that similarity. They lose even if they win. Now, if you're you know, the government is going to really tighten the screws on all kinds of federal grants, research grants to universities. They're going to dry up entirely in certain areas.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And you're going to find that, you know, Liberty University is a very attractive location to do all kinds of research that you would have once done at Harvard. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And Miller didn't get into Harvard.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I don't know that to be true. I don't either.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I don't think it's just that. All right. So remember when he's coming in. And we are all worried about them going after their political enemies, using the FBI, using the Justice Department, right, to attack his political enemies. And there actually hasn't been very much of that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
um in the criminal i was just going to say chris krebs might have uh i didn't i didn't say had there's been none i said there hasn't been a lot right most of what's happened on the criminal side has been all about creating impunity for friends
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So this started with the January 6th pardons, and then it proceeds to things like Eric Adams and shutting down the entire, you know, sort of public integrity apparatus of the Justice Department, firing a whole lot of prosecutors who worked on January 6th cases. Right. It's all about creating the impression that if you're on Trump's side, he will protect you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
But then you have this problem on the criminal side on using it for offensive purposes, which is OK. You can say we're going to have an investigation of Chris Krebs, but you can't actually indict Chris Krebs because you don't have shit. Right. Right. And so what do you do? to go after your political enemies, to make them hurt if you can't really sic the FBI on them?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And the answer is that's where all these civil remedies, civil attacks come from. You can go after Democratic law firms. You can go and ruin their businesses. You can actually put Chris Krebs out of business. He's a cybersecurity consultant. He just had to resign from his job. You can really make universities hurt.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Universities employ some conservatives, but really they're a power base of the left. And you can go after the press, but not after the press who are sympathetic. And so I think the way to understand these attacks is these are the things that he would the people he does want to put in jail. But that's hard. And so this is the repressive apparatus that's actually available to him.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Oh, it'll be by a lot. So, you know, what they're arguing in court in these cases in which they've fired people, for example, is that all of these cases belong have to go through the Merit Systems Protection Board. Right. And that doesn't mean and those are you know, that doesn't mean that they win. That means that they can't be stopped now.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Now, if you go through the Merit Systems Protection Board and then you file suit later, well, you're going to win because they actually just aren't allowed to fire civil servants like that. And so you're going to get back pay. You're going to get reinstated, but you'll have already had another job. So you're going to be reinstated and then they'll owe you all the pay that you should have done.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And by the way, you won't have to have done the work. So they're not merely going to lose and have to pay a lot of restitution. By the way, this is true for a bunch of contractors, too.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And then there are damages. And so you get all of the back stuff, you get damages. And by the way, the government doesn't get the work done. And so if you do the accounting for it later, it's going to be hugely expensive and disruptive.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
But what you won't have had is any moment where a court says, no, you can't do that. And so they get to say all along the way, we're saving the taxpayer X amount of money we're cutting. And by the way, when they lose, it'll be the fault of some judge.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
You're being cynical, but the cynicism isn't. First of all, courts behave that way a lot. Right. They look for ways to avoid confrontations to make it possible for litigants to comply. And when you're dealing when you're litigant is the most powerful entity in the world and you have no independent ability to enforce your judgments. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Being careful with what you order is not the worst thing in the world. Now, I don't want to countenance being cowardly, but he's not wrong to want to be careful here. Trump, unfortunately for him and for the other justices who feel this way, which certainly include Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett, Unfortunately for them, Trump isn't giving them the space like he's not saying, you know.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So he in the Oval Office just lied about the Supreme Court's decision in Abrego Garcia. And, you know, the justices aren't morons. They hear this. Right. And so they. They see we gave you a face saving out. We didn't say a word in criticism of you. We didn't use words like illegal or authoritarian or terrifying. We didn't do any of that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And you turned around and described a nine to zero Supreme Court opinion that said. we're not even ordering you to get this guy back, but just facilitate it, and you spat in our faces. This is going back up to them. And so he is sort of systematically taking away from Roberts and others the ability to not have a confrontation. Now, that does two things. One is it...
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
It you know, it takes away the face saving solution from the justices. It also takes away the face saving solution from Trump. And once you force that confrontation, eventually the Supreme Court has to say, OK, the district court ordered you to facilitate. That's what we said she could do, you know.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
we affirm and That's gonna be a bad moment And not just a bad moment for the court but a bad moment for Trump because it's one thing to defy a district court order Which he's now really done twice It's another thing to defy a unanimous Supreme Court opinion say written by Clarence Thomas or Sam Alito and and I don't know how he responds to that moment.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And I honestly don't know either how members of Congress respond to a moment in which the Supreme Court has unambiguously said, you know, a district court has ordered you to do X and we affirm. And he turns around and says, the Supreme Court can put it where the moon don't shine.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Look, I mean, I think from the opinions themselves, you can tell that they have been brought together on certain matters and that they're very divided on closely related matters. So if you look at the two Venezuela cases or the two, sorry, El Salvador cases in Venezuela,
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
The first one, they all agree that you can't just declare someone an alien enemy, put them on a plane and fly them out of the country.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Exactly. And that's unanimous. And they dispense with that in the first couple of sentences. And then they go on to have a very bitter division of
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
about whether you can, whether this very technical question of whether that due process has to occur through the habeas process or whether it can occur through a different process and therefore whether this judge had jurisdiction over this case properly or not. And, you know, on the one hand, they're all together on the biggest question there. Right. Which is, is this lawful to do?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
There's no daylight on that between Sonia Sotomayor and Clarence Thomas. But so they're all brought together and they deal with that in a sentence and a half. And then they have a real fight about the other thing just over jurisdiction.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
That's what it feels like. And then they do it again two days later or three days later, right? Where with Abrego Garcia, all nine of them look at it and say- Yeah, I'm sorry. You can't do that. And then six of them are like, but be careful, district judge, with that word effectuate. We're comfortable with facilitate, but be careful with effectuate. And three of them are screaming.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
You know, come on. You're going to fight about, you know, somebody's been.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Look, I thought that. Honestly, this is the division that I want to see the Supreme Court have. If you had told me, if you had described to me in the abstract the facts of this case and said, don't be cynical about it, don't read tea leaves, don't do anything, just based on people's stated judicial philosophies, how would you expect them to handle it?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I would say, wow, you know, the liberals on the court would be full-throated behind the district court, and the conservatives would get a little bit uncomfortable when you start using words like effectuate. And that's exactly what happened. So this felt to me like...
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
if there were no politics, if there were no how a court that actually had these ideological divisions and these philosophical divisions in a platonic ideal, what a disposition of this case would look like. And so I found it very cheering, actually, and that they divided exactly that way on that issue. Because it's like, you look at people who...
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
have certain stated judicial philosophies and they believe in certain things. And then you get disappointed when they don't behave the way they say they believe. And this one was one where you really could have predicted it based on who they purport to be. And I thought they were all being their real selves. And so I liked it, actually. Yeah. But the point is, the dispute was pretty bitter.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And even though they all agree.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And so I do think in some big sense, they're being brought together in these two cases on the biggest issues. They're nine to nothing. And yet they they are really angry at each other. And they they really they treat every one of these cases as though, you know.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
like the fate of a lot of things depends on it and that's not bad the fate of a lot of things does depend on it so yeah i can't help but assume that the three liberals are
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So I don't disagree with that. And I also think that, you know, being a being a member of the permanent Supreme Court minority is a very hard thing. You know, it's not like being a member of the minority in the House of Representatives where there's always two years from now. Right. You have your eye on the next midterms.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And by the way, you can feel it when things are going your way because fundraising picks up. There's always, you know, For those three to become the majority requires people to die. It requires the right person to be the president when those people die. These are very long wave things. And until then, on the issues that they care most about, they're going to lose almost every time.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And that is a hard life. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So I first of all, I'm not an expert on tariffs. I do have the impression that the administrations, to the extent that the administration is making tariff policy under the statute known as IEPA, which is the International Economic Emergencies. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Exactly. So to the extent that they're making tariff policy based on IEPA, I think that there may be serious legal defects with the tariff policy. Whether California is in a position to successfully challenge it, I'm not sure. Honestly, I suspect the better plaintiffs will be private plaintiffs that are affected by the tariffs and don't want to follow.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Yeah, no, no, I think not. I think these would be prospective. You have no authority to issue these tariffs.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Exactly. And you can't declare a worldwide emergency that covers all trade under AIPA. And by the way, even if you could, tariffs are not one of the authorities that AIPA conveys. However-
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And so I think that there is a there is I think that there are some substantial arguments that the tariffs are an overreach of his power. I'm not sure whether California is in the best position to litigate that. But I but I I wouldn't you know, they have some they have a serious attorney general's office that has a lot of capacity there. So I wouldn't rule it out either.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Or when you're a past president, you can't be sued in civil court.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Yes. Blatant defamation. As long as he does it as an official act of the presidency rather than outside in his personal capacity.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
No, it's not public official. It's the president. So the relevant case is a case called Nixon v. Fitzgerald. And it held that the president is absolutely immune to... for civil liability for all matters within the four, for all official acts within the four corners of the outer reaches of his presidential authority. It's a sweeping opinion from 1980 or 79.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Correct. So it happened. He repeated the defamation during the period in which he was not president.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Correct. But in the interregnum, he did it again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So he's not immune from that. Chris could sue him for that. Look, this is... one of the most egregious abuses of his second term so far, both with respect to Chris Krebs and with respect to Miles Taylor. And the idea, you know, it's so outrageous that there's actually a specific provision in the Constitution designed to prevent things like this. And it's called the bill of attainder clause.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Right. And a bill of attainder was what the British Parliament used to do, which was to name to have like the Chuck Todd is an asshole statute where they would declare you a criminal and then prescribe a punishment for you, like getting your head cut off. And the idea was they could just name you and accuse and pass a bill convicting you of a crime. And the U.S.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Constitution specifically forbids bills of attainder. Right. only this isn't a bill of attainder. It's an executive order of attainder, which is even worse because there's no legislative process behind it. There's no doubt it's unconstitutional. There's no doubt that it's a horrific abuse. The only question is whether it's worth Chris's time to sue because it doesn't actually do very much. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
It's, it's, it's an executive order that primarily defames him.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
But but with with Chris and I like, you know, he and I aren't aren't close and I know him a little bit, but not.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Right. It's not, you know, he's somebody who professional just a professional professional acquaintance.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And I admired his work in government very much. We do a lot of cybersecurity work at Lawfare. And so our worlds have overlapped a fair bit. But this is somebody when when when when you sign up as a journalist, you're signing up to play in a public space and to, you know, I accept it. I do. Right. I accept the attacks.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
We take upon ourselves the obligation not to engage in frivolous attacks, but not an immunity from them. But when you sign up to be a government official, one thing you are not supposed to is not supposed to happen is that you get savagely attacked by the government for telling the truth. And what people hate in the Trump world, hate Chris Krebs for is two things.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
One is that he protected our elections from foreign attacks that they wanted. And the second is that having done that, he. told the truth that the election in 2020 was secure and the idea that the head of government head of head of state of this country would issue a formal order attacking you for those things and accusing you of you know treason is mind-boggling i look it's it's
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
That is clearly right. And it is also the case that his personality is not in the same place as it was.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
more manic now and more obsessed with vindictive retribution more of the time. And not that he was free of those things four years ago or eight years ago, but he was less obsessed with it all the time than he appears to be now.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Yeah, I get asked it a lot. I mean, I am almost as much as I get asked the what if he defies a court order question? Look, I anybody who's not concerned is not paying attention. And anybody who. But it is also wrong to catastrophize it. I went out where I try to go.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
The day after the Trump Zelensky White House meeting. So I went I took my laser projector and I went to the base of the Washington Monument and I projected on in giant letters on the base of the Washington Monument. Trump and Vance betrayed America in the Oval Office. And this was visible from the White House.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And I was there doing this, by the way, the video of this, which is available on Instagram, has been seen by two million people now. And I was there for more than an hour and no police showed up. I've had no harassment of any kind as a result of having projected on the base of the Washington Monument that Trump had betrayed the country. And by the way, I'm going to do it again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
You know, the next time he drives really, really pisses me off, I'm going to do it again. And I'm not afraid of being arrested because in fact... By the way, projecting images, though, I mean, this is...
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
This is why I use projectors and I do it on the Russian embassy, you know, project Ukrainian flags on the Russian embassy. And so it's a it's a technique of protest that I've used a lot. But here's the thing. It's in police states. You don't get to project that the president betrayed the country within sight of the president. And you don't get to put your name on it and expect to be left alone.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So am I concerned? Yes. Do I think people are being a bit too hasty to catastrophize the concern? Yeah. And look, when I get arrested for for. this sort of activity or get, you know, I'll announce it when I have an IRS audit, you know. And so I do think there's still a lot of room to do political organizing in the United States.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And I do think, by the way, that Donald Trump is likely to get shellacked in the next midterms.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Which, again, dictators don't really let themselves do. So I don't want to confuse the concern for a sense that we don't have anything left to fight over.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
I agree with that, but I also don't think we should be complacent about it. There's erosion. There's erosion, and I think the erosion itself is awful. Look, if your question had been focused on are we still a place where – you know, people who are not citizens of the United States.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Our beacon is off. I would have given you a very different answer.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Yeah, although, you know, less than you did four months ago.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Right. But if you're a Palestinian sympathetic student on a student visa or you're on a green card, you have less rights than you may have thought you did four months ago. And so I want to be careful to acknowledge the degree of erosion and not say, eh, it's It's all fine. But also not to say things like we're not a democracy anymore or, you know, we're we've slid into authoritarianism.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Yeah, we may be sliding, but we're still pretty high up on the hill.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So I do all my Zoom meetings from what I call the hammock studio. I love it. You should name your production company that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
uh studios you know so hang on let me let me pull up my i can uh uh i can zoom out so you can see the whole thing oh nice um and uh it's a special treat for chuck todcast viewers yeah exactly i don't do this for just anybody that's right uh i built this studio in the in the pandemic and i just said you know if i'm gonna um uh uh-oh it wants to upload um
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Yeah, I guess it's not working.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
You can see it. Yeah, it's a handmade hammock with a Ukrainian flag hanging on it, made in Latvia. And I bought it on Etsy at the beginning of the pandemic because I said, if I'm going to be stuck in this little room for the next, I thought it was three months. It turned out to be two years. I'm going to be in a hammock.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Yes, and especially so because they are doing it by... It would be one thing if they were taking people who had genuinely done things that were... objectionable and demonizing them. But some of the people that they're going after, they've gone after so randomly that they then have to concoct these kind of legends about them, that they were gang members or that they're terrorists or whatever.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
And they often have very little basis for saying these things. And so the gay makeup artist with a tattoo becomes a scary gang member. And there's a fair bit, you know, speaking of defamation, there's a fair bit of simple defamation going on there. And, you know, you compound locking people up in a Salvadoran gulag with lying about them. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
Yes, and also to not confuse this, look, Kilmar Abrego Garcia was not deported to a Salvadoran prison because he was doing political organizing or expressing his opinions or denouncing the treatment of others. He was deported, as best as I can tell, because he was looking for work in a Home Depot parking lot with some people who turned out to be members of a gang. And he got scooped up.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
So if it's randomly coming for you, There's not that much you can do about that. And it's not coming for you because you're giving to political candidates or because you're raising your voice in objection. And so, you know, what I'm saying is don't confuse the two. We can all still do our parts. And the purpose of all of this is to scare you. So don't let it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump’s Lawlessness + Showdown With SCOTUS Looming?
You can always find me in front of the Russian embassy. And these days, just below the South Lawn of the White House, that mound that they put the Washington Monument on makes a great, great spot to project.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
He was saying it in 2023 when many when many Democrats were not saying it then or certainly weren't saying it publicly. And he basically said, where were you, Pete Buttigieg? Why didn't you say anything then?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And so I think that that's going to be it's going to be an albatross that every single Democrat that runs for office, the closer you are to Biden, the more questions you're going to have to answer about what you saw and what you didn't see. And if you didn't see it, the question is going to be, why didn't you see it?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Why didn't you ask questions about why you weren't allowed to meet more often with the president if you were a cabinet secretary, for instance? Or why did you say what you said? Some of these defenses.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Oh, I you know, when when it was it was always, you know, all these quotes are coming back to haunt so many Democrats because they'd be out there saying I was with Biden and he was amazing and he was this. It was almost like over the top rhetoric and trying to defend Biden.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Which after the release of the her tapes and after the release of this Tapper book is only makes those quotes age really, really poorly. So, look, I suspect you're going to have to that the Democrats are not anywhere near that. answering the question that voters are going to end up asking them at some point. Because I go back to what Chris Murphy said on Sunday.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
book, Jake Tapper, Alex Thompson's book about what happened inside the West Wing, what happened inside the Democratic Party that that led to what was a disastrous summer, if you will, the disastrous last 18 months of the Biden presidency. Was it a cover up? Was it not? I don't think there's any proof that it was a cover up of anything other than it was either a lot of willful blindness or
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
The more unpopular Trump gets, the more unpopular the decisions he makes, the worse our economy is, some of that blame isn't all going to go to the Republicans. There are going to be some voters who do blame the Democratic Party for not focusing on the task at hand back in 2024, for looking the other way on Biden. And so what does that mean?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I've posited here that if the duopoly of ballot access didn't exist, I do think the Democratic Party's major party status would be in real jeopardy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
But because of how embedded and because there's only one vehicle to guarantee ballot access without having to go around gathering petition signatures and things like that in many states, it gives them essentially a chance to try to reinvent themselves. But they have to reinvent themselves. Make no mistake.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
If you're thinking about leading this party in 26 or 28, go spend some time watching what Bill Clinton did in 1989 and 1990. Go take a look at the DLC. It doesn't mean you have to move ideologically. I do think that sometimes strength can be projected without shifting your ideology left to center or center to left. What you've got to do is project strength, whatever it is.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Either if it's strength on an issue, strength on character, but these mealy-mouthed answers and this sort of attempt to try to sort of vaguely blame others or blame the establishment is, I think, a fool's errand. Yeah. I do want to remind folks, why is the Hurt Tape public? The Hurt Tape is only public because the Trump White House chose to make it public.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Now you ask yourself, why do they choose, why is Donald Trump so... so enamored with constantly bringing up Joe Biden. Because in many ways, if you think about it like how a poker player might analyze somebody at a table, why is he doing this? Well, to me, it's a tell. What's the tell? He knows he's not popular. He knows many of the things he's doing are not popular.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
That Middle East trip, he did a few things that may pay dividends long-term. I think Syria and Iran could pay some long-term dividends and some stability in the Middle East.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
But the stinkiness of the business transactions and the clear sort of intent of his personal businesses and his son's profiting off of off of the government's businesses with those three Gulf countries, UAE, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, plus the whole plane business. Right. There's some stinkiness to it. So what was the best way to get people to ignore that stinkiness for about 24 to 48 hours?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Release the Biden her tapes. Anyway, it's obvious that Donald Trump is pursuing a strategy that Joe Biden might actually be might admire, which is. Donald Trump doesn't want you to judge him by the almighty. He wants you to judge him by the alternative that he chooses to compare himself to and constantly bringing up Biden, he thinks is a net positive for him.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
But it does lead to a curious question that I have in watching the full response, if you will, over the weekend and where the anger was coming up. When the first clips of the Her tapes came out, it was interesting to me that it appears as if the right, conservative media, Republican elected officials, all of them seem to be angrier.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
About this, about Biden's, you know, about this, about the attacks on her, about Biden's appearance on there and how it was clear that he was certainly, if anything, had a bad day when he did that first interview. But there was more anger from Republicans than there was from Democrats. And that's been a head scratcher to me. I think the release of the H.E.R.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
tape should be making Democrats a heck of a lot angrier than Republicans. You would think Trump allies are ecstatic that Democrats did nothing about Joe Biden for as long as they did. You would think Republicans should be celebrating that Democrats essentially didn't put their best foot forward in 2024. But if anything, they're attacking there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
By the staff, perhaps making themselves feel better because it was Donald Trump that was on the other side. And had it been anybody else, maybe they would have had clear set of eyes and thinking. But that book got supercharged over the weekend with the Trump administration's decision and the timing of that. And again, I'm going to get into that in a minute to release the full audio recording.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
They seem to be angrier about the development and angrier that, aha, see, they were right in their minds. They were right. Biden wasn't up to the job. Now, I know that some on the right, they think this is going to be some sort of indication for them that this will reinforce that you can't trust the left on anything. I think there are some on the right that believe that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
This Biden cover up, if you want to call it that, is akin to the no weapons of mass destruction that sort of saddled Republicans for over a decade, if you will. And so I think that's what the right thinks. But I will say this. I don't understand why Democrats aren't angrier.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
It was a lot of of of hiding a little bit in response to the her tapes when it and while the Republicans seem to be venting and frustrated, it was almost as if why couldn't the Democrats have put up a better candidate so that Donald Trump didn't become president?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Now, they didn't say the second part, but that the anger is so palpable on the right that it's like, wow, why did you make us nominate Donald Trump? I was almost what they're saying without saying it. Anyway, just something to think about into the motivation into why Trump's doing this. And I'll say this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
It says a lot to me that the Trump White House feels the need that they have to do this because guess what? They've had a bad 96 hours. Russia is is clearly Trump has no influence over Putin. He continues to snub Ukraine, snub any ceasefire. And, oh, they just bombarded him with one of the larger drone strikes.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
That Ukraine has experienced in a while, all in the run up to where Donald Trump says he's going to engage, talk to Putin and see if he can talk him into this. You also have House Republicans shooting at each other, unable to get this one big, beautiful bill onto the floor for a vote. Donald Trump's probably going to have to play Speaker of the House again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I mean, as we've learned, Mike Johnson is not his speaker in title only. Whenever he actually has to get a vote across the finish line, he desperately needs Donald Trump to make individual phone calls, individual threats. And let's just say Donald Trump has a lot of work to do this week playing House speaker.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And that, again, when you have all that on your plate, it's no wonder they said, hey, let's throw up the distraction shiny metal object and let's release the her Biden tape. All right. Let me sneak in a break here. And for those of you that are listening on audio, when we come back, you're going to hear from one of the fascinating rising stars of the New York City congressional delegation.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And he could be a future candidate for governor of New York. One Richie Torres. Thank you. New York City Democratic Congressman Richie Torres. Richie, it's good to see you. You're, in some ways, I think a lot of the folks that listen to me and are watching me do know who you are.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
You're a progressive Democrat who's really pro-Israel, been one of the more important voices for those that support Israel in the New York City area. But I miss the old Stephen Colbert days of get to know your district. So I've made I made Goldman do this. So I'm going to make you do this because, you know, tell me about your district. Like, I've never been to New York City.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Describe this district to somebody that lives in Rolla, Missouri.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And this was a Justice Department decision. They did it. So it's Trump's Justice Department that did this. Just keep this in mind. And we're going to ask some questions in a few minutes about why did they choose this moment? Why are they choosing to do this? But we'll get into that in a minute. But let's let's not beat around the bush. The release of the Robert Herr recording.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
You better say that. So you bought up against AOC and her district?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I need AOC, yes.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Yes. Yeah. And what's the difference between hers and yours? Is it beyond just butting up against, I mean, her district, it's not all contained in the Bronx, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
She votes for me in spirit, but not in practice. You served on the New York City Council, and I don't think people fully appreciate how enormous the New York City Council is. I mean, every time I, you're like, wait, a hundred and how many members?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
So, look, I'm obsessed with uncapping the House. I think we need to double the size of Congress. And you have a unique window here. You went from a constituency of about 100,000 to 150,000, you just said, right, to a constituency of approximately 800,000. Right. Talk to me about those challenges and is 800,000 too much? Should it be 400,000? I would maintain the status quo.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
has certainly, I think, put that entire episode in a different light. What Robert Herr wrote about his interview when he said that no jury would convict him, that his memory was a bit forgetful, but it would be something that a jury would forgive considering his age.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Well, did it or is it supposed to be the most small d democratic? Right. Like, you know, this is where I do think it I think in this case, more is better. If the if the founders were here, they would say that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
What was the term length on the city council? Four years. Four years. And same four years or did they stagger it?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
So I am, I believe this every single state legislative capital. Okay. Yeah. that has done this, the lobbyists run the legislature. Because they have the institutional memory. By the way, some very well-meaning lobbyists, just because you're a lobbyist doesn't mean you're only out for the, you know, standing up for bad guys. It just doesn't, but they're not term-limited, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
So I went on a bit of a rant the other day about the lack of bipartisanship these days. In this respect, here you had Donald Trump, who is in favor of a couple things that there are a majority of Democrats that are in favor of. He wants a tax rate for millionaires as one way. He floated it out there. We know that there's Democratic support for that. Yet he didn't go and seek it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
He did an executive order on prescription drugs that has no teeth whatsoever. If he had worked on finding Democrats to help him, you could suddenly probably get some bipartisan legislation. He's not alone. The last Democratic president didn't make much effort. I don't feel like Biden made much of an effort to reach out Republicans. And we could say Republicans didn't want to be outreached to.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Barack Obama had to do Obamacare solo. George W. Bush basically passed his prescription drug benefits solo. What does it take? And if Donald Trump came to the House Democratic House Democratic caucus and said, hey, I want to raise tax, I want to create a tax rate, you know, a higher tax rate for those that make two million or more.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Are we in a space where there could be a bipartisan agreement on that, or is the toxicity of Trump himself now make it impossible for bipartisanship in this current Congress?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Well, when that report came out, there was immediate denunciations because remember when when it came out, he was still running for reelection at the time when this report came out. So it was obviously something that they feared would only sort of bring back the news cycle, bring back the chatter that he shouldn't run for reelection, that the party should go in a different direction.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Not all of them were. A lot of them were in the party line vote, but some of it was in the bipartisan.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Look, you have a reputation for being incredibly reasonable. Have you heard from his congressional liaisons?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Sure. No, I'm talking about the Trump White House, you know, because I remember stories about the early Reagan days where they now granted they had a Democratic House. They had a they were dealing with. So there was they certainly they had to have relationships if they were going to pass legislation. But it was a day one priority. And you're right. Trump 1.0 did want to.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
You know, there would be days where it felt like he brought in Democratic lawmakers to have a conversation about this or that. There seems to be no demand, no interest in that whatsoever, even as he again, this prescription drug executive order. You get 300 votes in the House for it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Make sure we were still in 2025 because we kind of had one of these news Joe Biden news cycles over the last 72 hours.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
What is that going to? I mean, that's a pretty ugly next two and a half years we're going to spend, is it not?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
So what do you do as a lawmaker? You're a Democrat, you're a lawmaker. In theory, you're in the arena. What role can you play to get us out of this?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
So there was a very forceful pushback, attacks on her personally, accusations that he was somehow doing the bidding of the Trump campaign when he was doing it, just personal and vicious attacks by some people who are not journalists, but are considered members of the media. And I do make this distinction because I do think reporters and journalists were trying to do a story.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Well, you saw Josh Hawley, a Republican senator from Missouri. He's well aware of the majority of his constituents love Medicaid.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Richie, both my grandmother and my wife's grandmother, the end of life care that they needed, we couldn't have afforded without the help of Medicaid. Both instances.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Do you take any... So the way they're writing this bill, And guys like Chip Roy are unhappy with it. It feels as if all of the potential cuts to Medicaid or reforms are whichever side of the aisle you want to be on on this. Don't kick in for a few years, which means it feels as if they're going to get their hamburger today. They'll pay for it down the road. And by the time down the road comes.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
there'll probably be a different Congress that makes sure those either work requirements don't kick in or those cuts don't kick in. Do you think that's, do you take any sort of solace in the fact that that's probably what this legislation may end up looking like?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
What is there? Can you split Medicaid eligibility between, say, children who are citizens versus maybe one parent who may not be?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I don't know how you I get the thesis, but I don't know how you do it. And that's what I was curious.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And we're trying to be honest about what the heck was going on with Biden in the White House. But there were certainly pundits and analysts and hosts of cable TV shows that were trying to protect their access to the president and use talking points that were hand delivered to them by Biden supporters and Biden defenders to attack Robert Herr.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
So when you, is there any, so you don't even see a feasible way of, even if you were trying to do this and say, well, children who are citizens are eligible for Medicaid, but their parents are not.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Richie, let me tell you on this long-term care, even if you think you can afford your own long-term care policy, you can't get one to sell you. My wife and I got our long-term care policies when we were in our early 30s. We're now in our 50s. Do you know how many times this insurance company has tried to buy us out? They're desperately trying to get us off their books. They don't want it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Now we got it because she lost her parents early in life. And it was more of a, hey, this is our, and this is something that we were concerned about. But there's not even a marketplace for long-term care that's realistic. And I feel like government has been dropping the ball on this one for a long period of time. Now, I don't know what long-term care government-funded insurance looks like here?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Do you have a thought? Do you have a blueprint in your head about how you would help to, because this is increasingly, people my age, right? We've got kids in college and we've got aging parents, right? We're in this sort of, we're caught in this. Is there a realistic policy here that can help out? Is it all just through Medicaid or is there something else?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Look, I've got a grandmother. She's all there. She physically just has to be in an assisted living facility. And she tells me all the time, she's like, yeah, they're always understaffed, especially on weekends. They never have enough staff. And this is universal. And so we have a health care worker shortage in this country as well.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Let me switch to national security. This is also in the Middle East and the president's trip. We're speaking here. I want to timestamp this Thursday, May 15th. President's just wrapping up his trip to the Middle East. I want to get your reaction to something he said in a speech he gave at Saudi Arabia, sort of his version of realpolitik.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
We'll see if those folks decide to apologize, decide to do a mea culpa on that, because clearly now when you listen to the recording, Herr was not an antagonist here. Herr was not trying – doesn't seem like he was at all trying to lead the witness in some sort of negative territory, that he was willfully misinterpreting the conversation that he had and how the interview went.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
He said, far too many American presidents have been afflicted with the notion that it is our job to look into the souls of foreign leaders and use U.S. policy to dispense justice for their sins. It is God's job to sit in judgment, my job to defend America. and to promote the fundamental interests of stability, prosperity, and peace. It's sort of a real polity.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Hey, you know, we're not going to tell Saudi Arabia how to run their society. We're not going to tell Qatar. We're not going to tell... I assume this also means we're not going to tell Germany how they should manage their politics, but I'll get to that. It is sort of selective here, I think, a little bit. But in theory, what he's saying, where are you on that issue?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
You know, what... Should America conduct its foreign policy... always through this prism of realism, how much aspirational pro-democracy morality should we also be preaching?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Never mind lost prestige, lost soft power, things like that, that you can't really put a price on.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
So let's talk about Qatar because I I've been, I've been, um, A cutter skeptic for some time, the amount of money they throw at Washington. I've I'd like to think I've worked really hard to make sure it didn't infuse in anything I was working on. But, you know, whether it's purchasing a minority stake in some sports franchises in D.C.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Happy Monday. Welcome to another episode of the Chuck Todd cast. Thank you for watching. For those of you on YouTube or watching as a video podcast on Spotify, those of you listening. Also, thank you for tuning in. Always appreciate that. So I had to check my watch for the year again over the weekend.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
um that was that was quite rare meaning it was a joe biden you you might be forgiven if you thought biden was still president versus trump because it's rare for donald trump to ever get overshadowed particularly when he's actually president but for the last 72 hours all things joe biden has uh very much overshadowed donald trump now some of it um is intentional by Trump.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
to it's hard to go to an event in Washington that isn't somehow partially funded by cutter. And now this airplane business. How do you view them and what they're doing? Because they might say, hey, we're doing what Saudi Arabia did in the 70s and 80s, and it worked for them. Why shouldn't we use the same playbook?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I think it was – it's pretty clear that Herr was a professional in the – During the whole time, behaved very professionally and certainly was even empathetic at times when when the president, who, of course, it turned out it was the president that brought up his son's death, not not Robert Herr. So that that recording.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I mean, look, not to be super cynical here, but I'm going to be for a second. So if Joe Biden accepted an airplane from Qatar, what do you think the Republican response would be among your congressional colleagues?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
By the way, would that be outrageous that they were, in your mind?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Without going to Congress, without usurping powers of Congress.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
There's small ways that he's taken advantage of this that might be a net positive. He's going to cut a deal with Iran that Joe Biden, he's literally the same deal that Barack Obama cut. It's like USMCA versus NAFTA. Right. It's just going to change the name. I cut the deal. So it's different.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Syria, I'm not sure a Democratic president would have any Republican support for for doing what he did with Syria this week. Am I am I being overly cynical here?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Which also was very similar. That Kairos in some ways thematically saying, hey, look, this is a different culture. These are different. You know, we've got to be careful when we impose. And yeah, it was a it was deemed by some unpatriotic, un-American. Or going on an apology tour. Right. The apology tour.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Although it sounds like that this would be that he's basically apologizing to to our allies in the Middle East. What should that teach us about where we're headed with our politics? And because I sit here, look, 85% of what he's doing, I think is very damaging. But then there's that 15%. Well, look, it is, I think this is healthy that we're trying to move to a different place with Iran.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
It's healthy that we're trying to, you reward Syria. Look, we had a policy of getting rid of Assad. This guy got rid of him. Let's give him a chance, right? So- What does that tell you about maybe how Democrats ought to use power when they're in charge?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
has only, I think, taken, and certainly let's remember, the Trump Justice Department released the recording to one of the two authors of the book, to the news organization Axios, which of course employs one of the two authors of the book. So the Trump White House knew exactly what it was doing here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
FDR came close, but that was also he at the time, the era on his side, if you will. Fair enough. There was a crisis. But even then, there were certain Democrats he didn't have control over.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Yeah, no, it does. So let's talk about the Democrats. What should be the first of all, do you do you think Ro Khanna said that it's time for Democrats to admit we were wrong about Biden? We should have said something sooner.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Where are you on the Biden question? No question.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Right. I take your point there. Is there someone to blame outside of Joe Biden or is this a Joe Biden issue?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Did you have a meeting with him?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
No, it wasn't just members of Congress. Apparently it was the cabinet as well. As far as credibility, I mean, do you think your leadership, because both Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer have just steered clear of this. Now, I've been critical. I think they should have sounded the alarm sooner as leaders of the party at the time, but they've not wanted to confront this question at the moment.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And I get it. On one hand, it's like, hey, let's not, that's the past. We need to deal with what we have now. But what posture do you think they should be taking?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
They saw an opportunity to take a news cycle that was growing and developing, and really was more of a Washington news cycle about the Democratic Party, and essentially add an accelerant to it, right? The release of this recording, which is not in the book, okay? This was not something that they were able to get for the book, but...
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
When you see these polls where Democrats are sour on the Democratic Party, right, where they have an unfavorable view of the party at the moment, and there's this brand issue, do you think the party has an ideological issue? Is this a generational issue? What do you see as the problems that should be addressed right now?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Bill Clinton likes to say wrong and strong will always defeat weak and right. And the point being that there's a strength, you know, sometimes projecting strength. can overcome people not liking some of your ideas. And it does, the thing that struck me about one survey I saw recently to give a word or phrase, and among Democrats, they kept saying weak.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
So what this tells me, some people are gonna interpret it and say, oh, the Democrats need to move left or the Democrats need to move right. I'm not sure it's a left-right issue. I think it is a strength issue. But, you know, that's sometimes, that's eye of the beholder stuff.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Is it are you a thousand flowers bloom right now? Get everybody into the arena and let's see. Let's see who rises or or is there do you want to see a little more structure to this? Fewer people trying to determine the future of the party.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
They sort of giving it to the author only seemed to supercharge the attention. And it certainly now created a much bigger news cycle and has forced a lot of Democrats to have to answer for this, because at the end of the day, the Democratic Party did turn a blind eye, not just to Joe Biden, but they turned the blind eye to the voters.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Don't you feel like it's three nominees in a row, actually? When you look at the 16, 20, and 24, do you really think Democratic primary voters feel like they had a say?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I'm a big defender of the long campaign. I know I'm a total polar opposite on this. I think the long campaign, by the time you actually become president, It's almost feels easier than the slog. I mean, you know, the decisions are weightier. Don't get me wrong. Right. Deciding how much TV should we put on in Wisconsin or what trips.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
But but the grueling punishment, the David Axelrod calls it an MRI for the soul running for president, which I agree. I believe in. So it's you think the long campaign actually.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
the 10,000 hour effect, right? Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hours. You campaigned for two years. You've done your 10,000 hours of, of stupid interviews with people like me, you know, glad handing, whatever it is, the round tables. And you sort of, you learn, you just figure it out. Now it's an interesting point. Um, why aren't you running for New York city mayor? You know how many members?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I can tell you this. I'm going to make you blush here. I got a lot of friends and family in New York City, and they're very disappointed you're not running.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
But I'd argue it's one of the five most powerful elected positions in the globe.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
You would know this better than most. So explain that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I guess the reason why I think some of my well-connected friends, they see you as somebody that might be able to bring the city together and they're just nervous about having a retread politician.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Ultimately, what they did is they the voters were the ones that were telling poll after poll that they had more concerns. about Joe Biden's age than they did Donald Trump's character. And it was poll after poll after poll that would show that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
You know, they don't love the choice here. Make them feel better.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
He seems to have resistance to that tone. I've not heard that tone from him.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
So it sounds like to me, you've made the case that if you want to make life better in New York City, the best place for you to do that's in Albany. And you've been floated. You've been rumored about that. So let me ask you directly, you know, is that something you've thought about for 26 or not yet?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Let's talk about housing. This is a passion of yours. You grew up in public housing. You see, you know, housing is essential. We have a housing crisis in this country and it's not just in New York, it's everywhere. You know, it's the biggest argument in the county that I live in, in Arlington County. How are we gonna get more housing?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And it was amazing to me how often Democrats would dismiss those numbers and say, oh, no, you know, once once the public sees Joe Biden in action, that will go away. Well, that didn't happen because Joe Biden wasn't able to reassure folks that he was able to do the job.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And it's, you know, Yimby's versus NIMBY's and all of that, right? What do you think you could do as governor of New York to supercharge the availability and the affordability of housing for everyday New Yorkers.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
So your campaign for governor, if it happens, housing I know is going to be in the top of that list. What else is on the top of your agenda that the voters are going to think, no, if you do run, the focus of your campaign?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Lower costs, lower crime rates. That simple. And you feel as governor, how do you impact the crime rate as governor?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
If Governor Hochul, is there anything she could do to convince you not to challenge her?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Is there an issue you could see if she took up, it would be persuasive or unlikely at this point?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
The debate, obviously the infamous debate, ended up being the moment that only reinforced what the voters were already telling us. And that's what I think is the biggest problem the Democratic Party has right now in this moment in dealing with this Biden situation.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
100%.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
So, you know, you're challenged to her. It's not easy to say, are you challenging her from the left or the right? You're not really. And it's not really an ideological challenge if you end up doing this. This is really more of a competency.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Well, no, it's why it's why so many of my friends in New York wish you would be the next mayor because of that. The idea that you're not easily pigeonholed and that that you have a broader, a broader perspective.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I would disagree with that characterization because I feel like the average New Yorker- But yeah, but you know that that's how it'll look as far as the polling is concerned, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
You think the government pension fund should own the electric? Yeah. That's interesting.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
No, no, no.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I tell you, I had not heard an idea like that. That makes it, especially when you think about the cost of pensions and all of this, it is, to me, that's an interesting idea to sort of solve two problems, if you will.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Look, it does appear that Joe Biden is about to experience what Jimmy Carter experienced starting in 1981, which is the Democratic Party is going to do everything it can. Anybody that's currently active in the party is going to do everything they can to find a way to distance themselves from him in some form.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
No, you could sit here. I could make a right wing argument against it or left wing argument against it. Right. Which is the beauty of the idea. Sometimes sometimes you just have good ideas or bad ideas. You know, it's OK to be a technocrat. And I say that with with I mean, Michael Bloomberg problem.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
This is what concerns, it's funny you say that's about the progressive, but this is what concerns me about the reactionary nature of what we've, the so-called successful rise of Trump, and that there are folks on the left that look at what MAGA was able to do, and they see that as a blueprint.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I've held you longer than I promised your staff that I would. So not a bad way to end competence. That is I always say I'm not people like to understand my politics. I'm always like, I'm just who's going to get stuff done. Excuse my language. Who's just going to get stuff done that that's that's sort of in the rational middle. The folks that live between the 35 yard lines. Well, I'm on that team.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
It is good to see. Are you fired up about the Knicks? By the time this airs, we'll know whether they didn't blow it in game six or not. I hope they don't. It's fun to root. I hate rooting for New York teams. It's fun to root for this Knicks team.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Maybe they will say, well, I thought, you know, you'll hear Richie Torres, who I'm interviewing today. He's one of the rising stars in the Democratic Party. He may be a candidate for New York governor, a primary challenger to the New York governor there, Kathy Hochul. He will admit that, hey, it turns out we were wrong.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Well, yeah. Jalen Brunson could maybe be the next mayor of New York City if things go right. Richie Torres, congressman from the Bronx. Good to see you. Thank you. Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Richie Torres. How about that? He does not think much of Kathy Hochul. He is and also believes there is more power to fix New York City as governor of New York.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
than it is to be mayor of New York, which I think introduces an interesting set of questions for Andrew Cuomo, who is the front runner to be the next mayor of New York City. How often is he going to say certain things he can't deal with because it's up to the Democratic governor? So a fascinating set of analysis there from Richie Torres. I think that is somebody to pay attention to.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And if he does challenge her in a primary, You know, the one thing she could benefit from is if there's multiple candidates in her former lieutenant governor's challenge, possibly she could end up having two or three primary challengers, which would guarantee her renomination. The question is going to be, can she win a one on one if it ever gets down to being a one on one?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And I think with the anger that is out there among Democrats, I think incumbent Democrats will. in general, are all going to have targets on their back from voters. I think you're going to have to prove to voters that you're willing to go in a different direction, that you're willing not to sort of be a part of whatever this Democratic establishment has been the last decade. So
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Being an incumbent politician is going to be tough. I think a tougher road in Democratic primaries than than maybe some incumbents are prepared, are prepared to believe. And speaking of that, it does look like and you heard it from Ro Khanna.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I love the fact that podcast listeners heard it here before CNN reported it, which was Ro Khanna said that she's been doing the stuff she's been doing in California are what candidates for governor do, meaning she was going to events that only statewide candidates go to.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Essentially what Ro Khanna was saying, me, the guy thinking about running for president, it's not going to those events, but she is. Now, of course, news is circulating that she appears to be leaning more towards running for governor now. California in 26. And obviously, if she makes that decision, she's taking herself out of the presidential sweepstakes in 2028.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
We should have had a deeper conversation about this is essentially his message. But I want to read something Chris Murphy said on Meet the Press to my friend Kristen Welker. And he said this because I think this gets it to the heart of the challenge for the Democratic Party going forward. If they're going to ever convince voters to trust them.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
You've heard me say this before, but for those that haven't heard this, I think this is going to be a tougher campaign for her than she realizes. And if she does run. She is going to the shadow, the five o'clock shadow that is Richard Nixon is going to be hovering over her.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Richard Nixon loses a close race as a sitting vice president for the presidency in 1960, decides to go home to California, run for governor. And he loses to Jerry Brown's father, Pat Brown. It was after the infamous you won't have Dick Nixon to kick around anymore as he yelled at the press corps after losing in 62. That's where that quote came from.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And then he spent the next six years preparing to see if he could come back and win the presidency in 68, which, of course, he did. I do think there's some lessons here for Harris in the Nixon campaign. I think a lot of voters saw Nixon in 62 as somebody that he was running for governor as a consolation prize.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Well, Kamala Harris, if she's running for governor in 26, has to explain she never planned on being available to run for governor in 26. After all, I don't think anybody believes that she was going to run for governor of California in 26 as the sitting president. So it's a consolation prize. She also is going to have to – it's pretty clear, and it's going to be interesting.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Later this week, you're going to hear an interview that I conducted last week with another candidate for governor, a wealthy developer who was close to Harry Reid for a long time named Steve Klubeck. And Steve Klubeck is quite the personality.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And look, I don't want to take away from the interview itself, but when you hear it, you may be one part entertained and one part scratching your head and one part liking what you hear and one part a little uncomfortable. The point is, is that he's a big personality and he has some he's he's not a big fan of Kamala Harris and he will not will not hold back.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And I think that that's going to be there. She is going the minute she gets in. There's going to be a whole bunch of people who are going to target her in a negative way in all sorts of directions. Her connection to Biden is going to be an issue. What did she see? What didn't she see? Why didn't she say something?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Perhaps she's going to take heat for not for the campaign that she ran for president. I think for the most part, she ran a pretty good campaign for president, given given the situation she was in.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
But she's got to answer for the fact that she didn't sound the alarm that sooner about Joe Biden, that, you know, you've even had some some on the right say, how come she didn't push to invoke the 25th Amendment and things like that? So while I think that's a bit extreme, she still has to provide an answer that isn't snarky and that isn't defensive and that is believable. So. Look, I'm a skeptic.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
On one hand, look, if she's in the top two, she's probably the next governor. But I think this is an awfully risky decision because what's interesting, if she decided not to run in 26 for any office and chose not to run in 28 for any office, I think she could have sort of She preserved herself to possibly run for governor in 2030 or run for president in 2032.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
In retrospect, Chris Murphy says, you can't defend what the Democratic Party did because we are stuck with a madman, a corrupt president in the Oval Office, and we should have given ourselves a better chance to win. So what is he saying there? What he's saying is. to voters, it's okay to blame the Democratic Party for Trump's election.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
But she's putting herself in a situation where she loses a governorship in 26 and she can't get and she can't win that race. Political career is over. There's no coming back from that, not in this era. Maybe Richard Dixon could pull it off back in an era of three television channel, and no internet, no communication system like we have today.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
So I will say this, I think it's an awfully risky decision. And I just don't know if I'd be making a decision like this for an office that I hadn't thought about running for before. I mean, that's a real question I have for her. Have you thought about being governor? When was the first time you ever thought about being governor of California? Did it only start after you lost the presidency?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Anyway, it's a... It's going to be interesting to watch, and it certainly will become one of the premier races that national media covers if she does indeed run. All right. That's the end of my Monday. Big. Got to praise my Nats. They swept the Orioles in the big Beltway series.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I think the Orioles firing their manager after game one tells you everything you need to know about the state of the Orioles. But man, paging my friend David Rubenstein. A bunch of us Nats fans were upset. David Rubenstein is this wealthy industrialist. He's the owner of the Orioles. He's also the guy that Donald Trump fired from the Kennedy Center.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I will just tell you, a lot of us Nats fans were disappointed when he chose to buy the Orioles, when I was hoping he'd be the person to buy the Nats. But he's a Baltimore native and he want to... He's going to become a reviled owner pretty quickly. Forget Donald Trump not being his biggest fan.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
He's going to have the entire Orioles fan base angry with him because before he was owner, they were winning 100 games and 91 games. Since he's become owner, they didn't have any big free agent signings. In fact, they lost a big free agent in Corbin Burns. And now... They have a worse – I tell you this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I never thought they'd have a worse record than the Nats at this point in the season, but they do. This was supposed to be an Orioles team on the rise. They've got some amazing young talent. So kudos to my Nats, my man James Wood. Dylan Cruz even got a homer. It was homer heaven on Sunday.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
So, look, if I can't take this opportunity to use my own podcast to praise the Nats, then what the hell do I have my own podcast for, right? So with that – I'll take a 24-hour break of sorts, and I'll talk to you the next time we upload to you again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
That if the Democratic Party had behaved more responsibly, had the Democratic Party put the wishes of the voters ahead of the wishes of the establishment, they may have gone somewhere. They may be in a different place. Donald Trump may not be president. The Republican Party, if Donald Trump ends up a failed president and sets the democracy back decades and sets American exceptionalism back decades,
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And I'm going to get into that. But let's let's unpack this Biden news cycle. Obviously, the most recent news being his office announcing that he is an aggressive form of prostate cancer. So obviously, it goes without saying that that is that is Not good news to hear. And he is there is nobody that knows how to fight and rebound from health challenges more than Joe Biden.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
Not only will you have the Republican Party to blame because they've willfully gone down this road and they've looked the other way on character and they've looked the other way on sort of the historical nature of what he's trying to do here. But the Democratic Party did the same thing.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
They didn't put the interests of the country ahead of the interests of the party or the interests of themselves. And what really makes it, I think, even more damning for the Democrats and why this recovery is going to be so much harder, no matter how unpopular Donald Trump and the Republicans are in this moment, because it's a trust issue, right? There was this lack of being able to
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
of being able to see and the rhetoric was Donald Trump's an existential threat to the democracy. Well, if you believe that, then you had to make sure you were doing everything you can as a party to put that front and center, that that issue would be front and center. So if you had a sitting president that wasn't up to the challenge,
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
then he needed to be primaried or he needed to be convinced not to run again. And it should have happened a heck of a lot sooner. The party never seemed to take the Trump threat as seriously as the rhetoric they would utter because their actions didn't back up the rhetoric. How do we know that? Just look at how they handled the Biden situation in the last two years of the Biden presidency.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
So the question is, How many people in the Democratic Party are going to be tainted with this? So let me go back. I want to go back to the experience of the last time that the Democrats had sort of this sort of an era of defeat that called into question whether the Democratic Party was strong enough to lead in this country. The Democratic Party had got blown out in 72 by George McGovern.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
They narrowly win the White House, even though they should have won it by a lot. But they narrowly win the White House in 76 post Watergate, essentially because Ford pardons Nixon. And that was an unforgivable sin. Carter gets blown out in 80. Walter Mondale gets blown out in 84. And Michael Dukakis gets blown out in 88. So four landslides in five elections.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And after that 88 election, there were serious problems. There were serious debates about what was the Democratic Party going to do with itself. There was books that were put out that said the permanent minority party, the Democratic Party is headed for permanent minority party status. And what happened? Somebody decided to pick a fight and take the Democratic Party in a whole new direction.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And that somebody was Bill Clinton. And I've gone through this a few times before, so I'm not gonna re-talk about this moment, but that was a cathartic moment for a party. And Bill Clinton confronted the establishment. Bill Clinton confronted the very basic issues that swing voters were saying they didn't trust, whether it was law and order issues, national security, or the economy, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
He came out and centered the party as being more pro-business, more pro-free trade, tough, essentially, when he got elected president, he basically adopted half of the national defense policy that George H.W. Bush had, kept Colin Powell, kept a bunch of holdovers at the time, and essentially preserved much of the status quo in the national security.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And of course, he projected himself as much tougher on law and order, even famously leaving the campaign trail to oversee The use of the death penalty when he was governor of Arkansas late in the campaign just to reinforce the message that he was a different type of Democrat.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
It was all about him making contrast that he wasn't Jimmy Carter, that he wasn't Michael Dukakis and that he wasn't Walter Mondale. And the one thing and he actually had to push back that he wasn't George McGovern. That was a little harder for him. Why? Because why? Bill and Hillary Clinton ran Texas for McGovern back in 72. But still, you see my larger point.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
He had to not just run against the party, but contrast himself and put those previous Democratic leaders in a negative light. That's likely the situation the Democrats are in now, right? If you put the grouping of candidates together of Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. We've had three elections and two of them lost.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I feel like he's been doing it off and on his whole life. The guy is tough. He's resilient. And I have no doubt. He's going to make it through this and likely thrive after they make their decision on where to go with treatment. Obviously, that news came in the middle of what's been a pretty negative set of headlines for Joe Biden and for the Democratic Party as a whole, as you've had the
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And the Joe Biden victory turned out to be probably more of an accident in hindsight than we all realize. I think that one of the fundamental problems Democrats, I think, have made and why they may have chosen not to confront the Biden age issue when they should have is I think they misinterpreted both what happened in 2020 and 2022.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I think the Democrats mostly believe that their success in 20 and their better than expected showing in 22 was due to a rejection of Donald Trump and Trumpism. When it looks like if you actually dig in and now sort of see how voters behaved in 24, now we can look back and realize, oh, in 20, this was simply about COVID. And had Donald Trump managed COVID better, he'd have won reelection.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And oh, by the way, he almost won reelection anyway. Right. And in 22, it was simply superior Democratic candidates running against terrible Republican nominees. And if there weren't those terrible Republican nominees, the 2022 midterms go differently. And perhaps it actually motivates the Democratic Party to say, hey, they've got a pivot from Joe Biden. Something is wrong here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
This isn't working. But. And they believe the voters that the message the voters were sending was a full on rejection of Trump when really it was just a rejection of the specific policy of the moment and of that moment in 2020 was COVID. And I also think what happened on January 6th really clouded the judgment of a lot of Democrats.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
That the conservative media machine had done a great job building an alternative ecosystem. And Donald Trump supercharged that alternative ecosystem when Facebook and Twitter decided to deplatform him. He was forced to have to go find a new way to communicate.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
And all that did was, I think, lessen whatever impact Democrats thought January was going to say January 6th was going to have on the electorate as a whole. So. Look, I think you're going to continue to see more Democrats try to distance themselves. I think it's going to be really tough for some of them.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump Is "POISONING The Well" In Congress + Devastating Medicaid Cuts w/Ritchie Torres
I saw James Carville just attack Pete Buttigieg the other day saying, oh, now you're saying because Buttigieg went in Iowa, essentially said, yeah, maybe we should have gone in a different direction rather than Biden seeking reelection. And, of course, Carville's first answer was because Carville was out there early on saying Biden shouldn't seek reelection.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Changes + Predicting Future of Fox News & The Murdoch Empire
Von Hunden getestet, mit fünf Pfoten bewertet. Seefeld. Tirols Hochplateau ist ein Paradies für Zwei- und Vierbeiner mit Spazierwegen, hundefreundlichen Hotels und allem, was das Hundeherz begehrt. Mehr über euren Urlaub mit Wow-Erlebnis auf seefeld.com slash urlaubmithund
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Changes + Predicting Future of Fox News & The Murdoch Empire
Von Hunden getestet, mit fünf Pfoten bewertet. Seefeld. Tirols Hochplateau ist ein Paradies für Zwei- und Vierbeiner mit Spazierwegen, hundefreundlichen Hotels und allem, was das Hundeherz begehrt. Mehr über euren Urlaub mit Wow-Erlebnis auf seefeld.com slash urlaubmithund.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Changes + Predicting Future of Fox News & The Murdoch Empire
But...
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Changes + Predicting Future of Fox News & The Murdoch Empire
Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Changes + Predicting Future of Fox News & The Murdoch Empire
Von Hunden getestet, mit fünf Pfoten bewertet. Seefeld. Tirols Hochplateau ist ein Paradies für Zwei- und Vierbeiner mit Spazierwegen, hundefreundlichen Hotels und allem, was das Hundeherz begehrt. Mehr über euren Urlaub mit Wow-Erlebnis auf seefeld.com.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Changes + Predicting Future of Fox News & The Murdoch Empire
Rupert Murdochs Empire. Und jetzt mit mir ist der Autor dieses Buches.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
This is his sort of core libertarianism in him. A libertarian doesn't want any tariffs on anything. But he pointed out a very important fact. The Republican Party pre-World War II was very similar to the current Republican Party of today. A bit isolationist. It was the party of business. And back then in the 1910s, 20s, and 30s, America's businesses were afraid of foreign competition.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
want tariffs because it protected their businesses it protected their wealth this is not how the economy works anymore this is the equivalent of Donald Trump trying to somehow manufacture the ice block industry again you know there was the ice block industry used to be a big deal in Europe until we figured out refrigeration and we didn't need blocks of ice to cool our food and this is the equivalent of trying to turn back the clock
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
to an era that doesn't exist. You know, we put those tariffs in when we were using airplanes for cargo then. We were using ships, and certainly in this country, trains. So there's no part of this that makes sense. And trying to look back and say this was some golden age, it wasn't a golden age. We had extreme poverty back in the late 19th century, early 20th century. We had child labor issues.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
We had terrible work conditions. So I'm not sure what part of that era of business, what part of that era of the economy, is actually something to wish we had again. So, you know, this is, and you know what happened after that? The Republican Party wasn't trusted with control of the legislative branch for nearly 60 years. 60 years.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
You know, they had a brief period where they controlled the House at two elections in the 50s, thanks to the popularity of Dwight Eisenhower. But that went away quickly. And it went, they went 40 straight years with control of the House.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
This all goes back to the Republican Party and their trade issues and being essentially punished for essentially wrecking the economy in the 20s that led to the Great Depression. And many economists have concluded it was the bad tariff regime, among other things, that put us in that situation. So I can't see a positive outlook politically here for the Republicans. And the question is, when do...
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
How many congressional Republicans break for him and when do they break for him? As I explained earlier, I highly doubt the House Republicans will crack because they got there because of Trump. So in some ways, in for a dime, in for a dollar. The Senate Republicans want a break. Maybe they'll wait till after they pass the tax cut because they're going to need a lot of help from Trump on that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
He was one time pro-choice and now he's pro-life and all these things. If there's one issue he has been consistent on, it's this belief that the American economy should all be sort of within the borders of America. So he does, I think, this is one of his actual core beliefs, that this is the way the system should work, that there should be more manufacturing in the country, that if you have
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
By the way, you want to talk about stupidity with this legislative agenda by this White House. If he knew he always wanted to do this tariff, all these tariffs, he should have waited six months, gotten his tax cut, then done this. Instead, he's now the tax. I think he's put his tax cuts in jeopardy here because I think this economy is just going to be.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
in terrible shape come the end of the summer into the fall. We're going to see all sorts of horrible warning signs. You're going to see a rise of unemployment rate. We're already seeing that the parent company of Chrysler and Jeep has already announced tariff-related layoffs.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
And so the tax cuts going to come, I'm sure Donald Trump's going to try desperately to come up with some sort of rebate check of some sort to try to, and call it like sort of, Hey, I'm going to give the first, you know, the first chunk of tariff money that comes into the country. I'm going to give it back to my farmers. I'm going to give it back in it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
And it really isn't, you know, all it is is our own money that we paid that, essentially is covering the tariff costs than being sent back perhaps in check form. But I'm not sure Congress is going to be comfortable going along with that because whether it'll even come across as believable. So but I think he will try something to mitigate this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
But I don't think it's going to be getting rid of the tariffs. And even if he gets rid of them, it's not going to solve the larger problem. He will have already severed. He's already severed all of these
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
economic and potentially national security ties with so many key allies that putting these partnerships back together is going to take decades it's going to take decades and it's going to take because the the concern this is now twice that america's elected him and this disruptive ideology so our european our traditional european partners our traditional asian partners are
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
They're not going to quickly get back into bed with us, even if the next term is sort of somebody who is a none, a president who isn't in favor of Trumpism. But it's going to be a long 17 months. So I think people will have to prepare accordingly. I think you will see a pullback in spending and that will be just all of that will be a domino effect.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
But I do expect Congress will finally find its spine and take its tariff power back from the presidency. But it may not happen until you have at least one chamber in Democratic hands. And I think if the Democrats pick up the House... And Republicans, even if it's, you know, Republicans don't lose a single Senate seat.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
I promise you there's a large majority that if they know it can they know they have the votes in the House to do it. They will take the tariff keys away from the mad king here. And I think that likelihood is is quite high that this is. This is potentially one of the greatest political disasters. I'm trying to come up, look for other equivalents.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
Maybe this could be as bad as what happened to Democrats in 94 with the assault weapons ban coupled with health care. Perhaps this is as bad as the Tea Party for the Republicans, for the Democrats in in 2010. Perhaps it's Watergate 1974. But I think this is not going to be a small ripple. This is going to be a gigantic crack here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
And who knows if perhaps perhaps this leads to a new fight inside the Republican Party. Maybe there are primaries. I'm not there yet. I think as long as Donald is king of his party. You're not going to see successful primary challenges.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
But I do think if this does lead to what happened the last time the Republicans played with terror fire and it leads to huge successes for the Democrats, you will see the Republican Party have a real fight over the direction post Trump. But for now. prepare for a very tumultuous and likely this is, you know, Donald Trump's life just got so much harder to politically conduct this presidency.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
And he sees everything through this binary way. There's winners and losers. And America's the winner, so therefore they shouldn't have trade deficits with anybody. People should have trade deficits with America, but it shouldn't be the other way around. So he's somebody that doesn't really, you know, if I were a critic, I'd say he doesn't understand the global economy. But he certainly doesn't...
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
I would say he doesn't really, he doesn't buy into this idea that the global economy has been a success. I, for the life of me, I don't see how people don't look, why most people don't understand that if you essentially look from post-World War II to now, America's written the rules for the global economy, and it has benefited America immensely.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
still the wealthiest nation, still, you know, and I say little things, go to any other country and ask yourself if you'd rather live there or here when it comes to simple things like the mail service or the quality of toilet paper, nevermind the availability of goods and services, the availability of the fact that we do have a lot more cheap goods available to us.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
Why do, you know, I grew up in Miami. We had, people used to fly in from other countries in order to simply go shopping. in the United States. OK, this is this has been what the global economy has done for America. So I know it's not cool to be for the status quo these days. Right. Everybody wants to disrupt and change and disrupt and change.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
But this is one disruption that doesn't make a lot of sense, because one could argue that since America has essentially decided that the cause of World War Two is was that we didn't have enough of the economic ties with each other. And the more economic ties you have, the less likely you're going to fight each other. And so guess what?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
The last time we went through this tariff business, it was followed by World War II. And there's plenty of evidence that it was a pretty direct link. the 1929 stock market crash essentially was the beginning of the collapse of the... The German economy was already fragile. It sort of accelerated the collapse of the German economy, which, of course, accelerated the rise of Adolf Hitler.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
This does not look like it's going to go very well. You have this kind of economic shock to the system, this kind of, you know, record breaking falls in the stock market. It's the type of story that everybody pays attention to. This is not the type of stories that it's just people that are invested in the stock market or just wealthy people invested in the stock market. This is a global story.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
And I don't think I need to tell you what happened after he took over Germany. So the point is, is that this... The American leadership post-World War II concluded we can't have this type. So what was born? All of these multinational, multilateral organizations, whether it's NATO, the IMF, all of these things. And it has been a success. We went nearly 80 years without a war in Europe.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
Welcome to a little special edition of the Chuck Todd cast specifically for my YouTube subscribers. And so this is what I want to deal with this morning on this Friday morning, which is a question I've already been getting over the last 40, 24 hours, which is simply. What do all these tariffs mean for us politically? So look, here's here's what we do know at the moment. This is not going to go.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
essentially, or almost 80 years. There was the Balkan War. We can't ignore that. And obviously, we have the war now with Ukraine. But the fact of the matter is there's been relative peace on Europe, the longest, arguably, period of peace in Europe since If for a thousand years, if you if you want to nitpick on this. So this is a radical change and it isn't going to get better overnight.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
So what does this mean politically? So it's already pretty clear to me that most elected Republicans, if they could vote without fear of Donald Trump, would take back tariff authority tomorrow. You're already seeing some Senate Republicans. Chuck Grassley has introduced a bill with Maria Cantwell that I think will have majority support. Probably not yet 60 votes, but trust me, it'll get there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
But let's talk realistically. What what do I what how should you watch the next 18 months between essentially between now and the midterms? Because if there is a change in control of either House and Congress, the midterms, I do think these tariffs will go away almost immediately.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
So if if let's make this I believe right now there were a Democratic House and a Republican Senate that they would collectively vote. grab the tariff keys away from Donald Trump. And so the likelihood of a Democratic House and a Republican Senate is pretty high come January of 2027.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
But between now and then, the question is, would there be a majority in the House and a majority in the Senate to do this with the Republicans in charge of the House? And the answer to that is likely no. There is a big distinction between House Republicans and Senate Republicans. House Republicans are more reliant on the base of Donald Trump's party. They're more reliant on Donald Trump.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
And they're frankly, you know, their political careers would be dead if Donald Trump decided to kill their careers. I'm not saying Senate Republicans aren't fragile to potential threats from the Donald Trump base, but it's but there's certainly a bit more inoculated and many of them don't have to run in 26. Not all of them have to be on the ballot in 26. So there's a little bit.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
In fact, many of them won't be on the ballot ever again with Donald Trump or with Donald Trump as president. So there's a little bit more. security that they have in their minds to try to separate themselves from Trump. And frankly, even if you are on the ballot in 26, senators are dealing with a general election electorate.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
OK, so a guy like Tom Tillis may be vulnerable to a Trump primary challenge. But the fact of the matter is he only wins reelection if he can figure out how to win the middle. And on this tariff business, which really hurts a state like North Carolina, he's going to have to sit here and walk a line.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
He doesn't want to antagonize Trump because I think he would struggle in a primary in North Carolina. And at the same time, you know, if somebody to his right beat him in a primary, I don't think that person could win a general election in these midterms in North Carolina. So that's just one example. But the point is, this is what I would watch for over the next sort of three to six months.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
This is arguably the lead story in every major news organization around the world because these tariffs have impacted everybody. So, look, I think a few things here that we both overestimated with Trump and underestimated with Trump. And it has to do with the idea that he's a transactional guy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
I think the the don't assume that Donald Trump is negotiating with countries. Do I think some countries will get some negotiated reprieve? Yes, I think the UK will. Not much anybody else in Europe, anybody aligned with the EU, no. But I think the UK, because of Brexit, he will be more inclined to do a deal there. I think he's likely to do a one on one deal with Japan.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
because the Japanese have basically been courting him very carefully. They've been obsessed with courting him. Multiple leaders, certainly this ruling party has. And I think he is likely to reward them with some sort of side deal. But for the most part, I think he believes this in his bones. And so I don't think there's going to be a ton of reprieve. So what does that mean?
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
The markets are still going to be volatile. People are not going to be happy. Remember who's watching the stock market the most these days. It's retirees. What's one other thing about retirees that people forget about? They vote, right? The person most likely to vote in a special or election or a midterm election is somebody over the age of 50. They are the most likely voter.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
So, and right now, they're the ones most sensitive to a loss in value, baby boomers. People in their 30s and 40s, you know, you can even look at this moment, ooh, maybe there's a buying opportunity. You know, you're still invested for the long term, 10 years, 15 years, if you're not touching your retirement. you might have more patience for this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
But if you're in your 50s, 60s or 70s, aka the people who are the most likely voter and the people the most likely to show up, you're going to be very sensitive to these market disruptions. So I think you're going to
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
Likely to see that this is sort of I would I think this is going to be what the Afghanistan withdrawal was to Joe Biden is what this tariff bomb that that Donald Trump set off earlier this week is going to be for him. That Afghanistan withdrawal for Joe Biden dropped his approval rating anywhere below 45, somewhere between, you know, sometimes could get as low as 38.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
He never got above 45 again for the rest of his presence. At this point, I don't expect Donald Trump to get above 44 or 45 for the rest of his presidency because of this tariff stuff. So this is likely to make him less popular. Doesn't mean he's going to be less popular among the MAGA base. In fact, you see, you know, he's got his propaganda machine going.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
His media, the sort of the supportive folks of his in the media are sort of putting their blinders on and pretending that this is, you know, he's got some brilliant plan here. But it's going to become toxic. You're going to have, I think, a few things to watch for include House Republicans who decide not to seek reelection.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
Some of them may decide, I'm going to run for governor, I'm going to run for the Senate, but I'm not going to run for the House because I think a House Republican is going to be a lot more vulnerable in this environment than a Senate Republican. Senate Republican might be able to inoculate themselves some.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
You've already seen a few of them break away when you had Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell, Lisa Murkowski, Susan Collins vote with the Democrats on that on the Canadian tariffs. So I think you will have some some that do that. If you start seeing the Republican retirements get into the double digits, it almost seems will be handing the Democrats control of the House.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
And I think that will be something to watch for. Because I think, look, we already saw in these Monday elections that the Republican base is not that engaged. At least Donald Trump's base is not engaged enough to win these elections. Certainly not in Wisconsin. We saw a place like Escambia County in Florida vote for a Democrat for Congress for the first time
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
And the assumption was, and frankly, this is what many in the business community, because Donald Trump campaigned on this. He said he was going to do this. He has believed in tariffs. It goes back to 1987. Back in 1987, when Roger Stone was trying to help create Donald Trump, the politician, Donald Trump bought a full page ad in The New York Times.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
Since 2006, has Escambia County supported a Democrat either for Congress, the U.S. Senate, or the presidency? Why is that significant? Well, Escambia County is home to Pensacola, a naval base.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
It's got probably the largest cohort of federal government workers or federal government adjacent workers in the state of Florida because of all the adjacent aspects that come with a major naval base like the one in Pensacola. So,
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
you already see the vulnerability and that's just a reaction to all of the, all of the cuts that have been taking place due to Doge and certainly some of the discomfort on that. Now you have this economy that's going to hit people right in the pocketbooks. I mean, the dollar store is going to turn into the $10 store. You know, they're not going to be able to find things that cost a dollar.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
That's going to hit a lot of Trump voters. That's going to hit a lot of red districts and, So I don't think he's going to back down. I think the thing that what we all thought about Donald Trump, that he was transactional, that the markets would be a guardrail. I think we now need to realize that this third term stuff is such BS. He's more Thelma and Louise here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
He's got nothing to lose in his mind. He actually this might be the one thing he has conviction about. And he, I think, has a higher pain tolerance for the market gyrations, a higher pain tolerance for maybe rich people calling him to complain than the average politician. The average politician, Republican or Democrat, has their largest donor on speed dial on their cell phone.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
So I think members of Congress are going to be hearing not just from their constituents with angry phone calls into the congressional offices, but the members of Congress themselves are going to hear from their biggest supporters who are all going to look at their stock portfolios and panic. So it is hard to see how this gets better. for Republicans before now and in the midterms.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
And I know we can sit here and say this is a long way to go, but this is something, this severing of ties with so many allies. I got to read you this one quote here from the Canadian prime minister, which was just an astonishing quote, but it's pretty important. This is the current Canadian prime minister, Mark Carney. And he said the following.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
The 80 year period when the United States embraced the mantle of global economic leadership, when it forged alliances rooted in trust and mutual respect and championed the free and open exchange of goods and services is over. While this is a tragedy, it is also the new reality.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
And that's why I don't think I think Trump had the misconception that somehow America was essentially an essential economy. and that there's just no way that countries wouldn't essentially change their economic behavior to appease the United States. This is providing a huge opening for China.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
We now have two of our closest Asian economic allies, Japan and South Korea, who are coordinating with the Chinese on how to respond to the U.S. tariffs. We have the Canadians figuring out with the EU how to coordinate. We have now thrown people, countries that we thought were allies of the United States, into the arms of China.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
I believe it was The New York Times, may have been The Post, Times and Journal, actually, but it was definitely a full page ad. That talked about how Japan was ripping off America and that Japan or trade deficit. And, you know, we had idiot negotiators. If you recall, in 1987, Ronald Reagan was president. So it he in some ways, Donald Trump, who doesn't have much of an ideology. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
which seems to be an absolute, you know, the unintended consequence that nobody should want, left or right. I mean, if we lose our alliances to our chief economic and, frankly, cultural rival for global supremacy, what have we done? We're not going to like that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
I always say to people who don't want America to be the beat cop, I said, okay, if America's not the world's policeman, somebody will be, and you're not going to like any other country being the world's cop. You're going to be a lot happier if we're the world's cop. And we're just seeding this turf.
The Chuck ToddCast
Trump's Tariff Turmoil
We are giving China an opening all around the world with countries that were so aligned with us, I never thought those bonds would be shaken. So Look, I think this is a Republican Party that's courting disaster. I'm going to quote Rand Paul, who made a very astute point a couple nights ago. Rand Paul, one of the few Republican senators who's been publicly pushing back against these tariffs.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
So with that, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. Again, Alex Gibney, he's been on this beat a long time. And like I said, I've been a cynic myself on what is realistic when it comes to regulating money in politics.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
All right, and joining me now is Alex Gibney. Right now he's got two, whether we call it an episodic series or two feature-length documentaries, but The Dark Money Game has debuted this month on HBO with back-to-back reviews. Feature length documentaries essentially on the corruption of money in politics. And you may say, don't roll your eyes at me on this one. Money in politics.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And in fact, some of the great reform efforts of our time have actually created the disastrous situation that we're in today. McCain-Feingold, McCain-Feingold is thought of as this. great reform that attempted to take big money out of political parties and out of the system. But what all McCain-Feingold ended up doing is moving the money out of the political parties.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And trust me, I can get cynical, too, and I get it. But what Alex Gibney does and money's always been a through line for him. But in general, what he does is he he tackles corruption. in many ways, tackles some of the more complicated subjects that we have to deal with in society. And he makes it watchable. He makes it digestible. He makes it accessible.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And let me tell you, I think dark money, which is a story we can't we journalists haven't done a good job telling. We've tried. We haven't made it as compelling to the voter as it should be. I will say this. I think this is the best attempt I've seen yet at trying to get people to understand how corrosive this has become to our political system. Alex Gibney joins me now. Alex, good to see you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Good to see you, Chuck. I want to start with this larger issue of trying to take the scandalous nature of money in politics right now, which is – I would argue it's been somewhat of a – I don't want to call it a through line in your work because you do a – you can get into a variety of things. But this is not the first time you've tackled money in politics in your various documentaries.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
You've tackled it before. This felt like – It's like we always say, no, no, no, no, this is really bad. And yet, no, no, no, no, now it's worse. And the dark money, the 501c4s, the fact that we can hide money now in ways in this post-Citizens United world is really complicated. And you decided, you found, I think, a more compelling way to tell the story.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
But just in general, how much of a challenge is it to make this campaign finance issue accessible to the general public?
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
There's that great set line from an old senator, Everett Dirksen, a billion here and a billion there. And eventually you get to real money.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
You know, and it feels that way sometimes in campaign finance. Oh, he's got a billionaire super PAC. He's got a billionaire super PAC. And we all just sort of, you know, roll our eyes.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
At the time, one of the few places where there was accountability, where they had to file, they had to disclose who their donors were, maybe not in as timely of a fashion as people wanted to see, but they could do it. And yes, there was something called soft money, but these people, you still had to report where this money came from.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
So I want to dig into Ohio Confidential. I'll be honest. Look, as a political reporter, I was certainly aware of what was happening in the Ohio legislature. I was looking at it in terms of, oh, this is interesting. Is this going to put Ohio a little more competitive? Are voters going to punish the Ohio... I'll be frank. That was the prism with which I was looking at that story at the time.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And in many ways... I didn't fully appreciate the totality of what happened, but the way you presented the story of essentially, you almost do it as a caper, right? You got a lobbyist. It's a true crime thriller. Yeah, it's a true crime story. You have a lobbyist, a disgraced politician, and an energy company. And they get together and they literally take over the Ohio State Legislature.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
But he wanted to send a message, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And you tackle this a little bit. As much as I wanted to see the politician get brought up on charges, as much as I wanted to see the lobbyists get brought up on charges, it bothered me that only. a couple of executives got brought up on charges. I just Googled this morning, First Energy. They're still a company. I'm sorry.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
When you get caught doing what you're... You want to steal a billion dollars from Ohio taxpayers. How are you still in business?
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And so here was this incredible – this legislation that was monumental at the time, and all it did was sort of shift the money out of political committees and out of the politicians' hands and into these third-party groups. Right. Now we call them super PACs. But there was different sort of tax code versions of this, 501C3s, 504Cs, things like that. And it is taken – it is essentially –
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
OK, he used the divide inside the Republican Party in Ohio in that period. I'll just paint a political picture. Right. We've seen this sort of in a lot of Republican parties from the sort of the pre-Trump establishment to the Trump MAGA establishment and householder, you know, very cleverly.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
This wouldn't have been able to work in many years, but it could work here because there is this movement of new MAGA adherents who want to push out the sort of the non-MAGA Republicans. So he seemed to use MAGA. in primaries to primary his way into getting the votes he needed to become speaker again. Did I paint that picture correctly?
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Pretty good deal. And you prevent bankruptcy. Yeah, well, they were literally- It was worse, right? They were already in bankruptcy, sorry.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
All right. There are a couple of reasons why this documentary works so well. They did. It felt as much like a movie as a doc. Right. And that's that's that's your gift. I mean, look, I'm not going to continue to blow smoke, but you do this better than everybody is always trying to be Alex Gibney with their docs. And I say this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
You know, people would be would be in better shape if they did try to model themselves after. But you had a few pieces of material that I found to be amazing. And I got to ask, it's the FBI wiretaps. Was that FOIA? Was that government? I mean, how was that just stuff they they made public during the court cases? How did you get all of that material?
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Hidden the money in plain sight. Right. You know, we generally know where this money comes from, but we now don't find out when they do it through third party networks and channels. You don't find out about it until after an election. And so we've gone from an election that if you're ready for this in 2000. where collectively, collectively, Gore and Bush spent – this is just 25 years ago.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
I was going to ask that because you don't make it clear in Ohio of what the other case was. So it was a gambling corruption case?
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
I was I was surprised at how active the FBI was in this. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
But Alex, can we make a I don't know if I want to call this a confession, but.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Do you know how often I've heard that conversation when I've gotten just a basic briefing from a super PAC that is in charge of Republican House races or a super PAC in charge of Democratic House races where they'll just casually say, well, you know, we're able to use this money in our 501C4 that does this and, you know, so way of this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
What's interesting, and it was just such a reminder how you can be captured by your beat sometimes, okay? And look, this is why I love Jane Mayer, who's also, I noticed, an executive producer on this, terrific reporter at The New Yorker, who's really sort of been on this beat better than any of my colleagues on this. But I realized how...
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
warped my own brain had become about money and politics as I was hearing those wiretap conversations about, oh, you put them in a C4 and it's not disclosed and all of this stuff. And I'm like, yeah, this is, this is just how business is done in Washington this century. And then I realized that, yeah, this is our problem, right? We're, we're so used to business being doing this way.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Well, is there any illusion amongst us here or in the country that there's- Alex, do you know Ron DeSantis ran an entire campaign where every campaign stop in Iowa that he held, he was a guest. His super PAC, it was, hey, come, you know, come come to whatever they called their super PAC. You know, I concerned Iowans for the future with special guest speaker Ron DeSantis. You know, that's right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Collectively, they spent about $200 million on their campaign. You know, $200 million is what Donald Trump just raised for his inaugural fund, OK? It is – $200 million is a good first quarter for a general election presidential candidacy. We've now got, you know, and you now can legally give, I think, a million dollars to a party individually these days.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Look, you do a good job in the piece of noting, look, you may be featuring a set of Republican corrupt officials here, but this is not as if – and this is the problem, right, is that I'll hear from those that feel guilty about taking dark money. But they'll say, well, we have to be competitive. We can't have one arm tied behind our back against our opponent. And look –
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
the fact is we can rationalize our way to a kleptocracy if we keep doing it this way, which frankly, I think we're in the early stages of kleptocracy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
But let me let me introduce an uncomfortable fact about this scandal. Nobody lost their reelection over it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
But he couldn't even be hit in a primary. And, you know, with this also, I'm sitting here, it's sort of like peeing in a hurricane as a journalist, right? Which is, if we wonder why journalists have so little impact on accountability right now, well, literally, they're just buying their own coverage, right? It's so ubiquitous, the amount of money. That's being put in.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And you couldn't do that before, let alone money you can give to a third party group. Your money in your you never have to disclose it or you can do it through a foundation and et cetera. So the point is, is that we really do have a mess on our hands. Alex Gibney will tell you it's Citizens United.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And frankly, let's be honest, these are statehouse races, which if we don't have good community local information ecosystems, which we don't right now, there is no literally trees are falling in little statehouse district forests and nobody's there to tell you they fell. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Except for the super PAC who is able to put all this money in and they're the ones informing that public about this or that there's there. You know, I'm going to guess that some Ohioans are going to see this and go, I had no idea.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Right, this is why they have abortion rights in Ohio. Correct. I mean, because the voters said, yeah, the voters took over, yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And I think there's no doubt that the unintended consequences of Citizens United has certainly created this. The question is, what do we do about it? Because I do think we're in a situation where money is consuming. Look, my friend Tony Kohnheiser, let's use a read all you listeners of Mr. of Mr. TK out there, as he will tell you, the answer to all your problems is money.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
This signature business, I got a story and it was a tip, but I only had, it's like one part of it, but there was an initiative fight in Florida. Basically it was between the casino, the sports books who wanna run mobile gambling in Florida versus the tribes who wanna run mobile gambling in Florida.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
So they had these, they were doing competing initiatives and they were, and literally there was a signature broker OK, who said, I got half a million signatures. They cost a certain amount of money if you want the signatures, and then they cost a certain amount of money if you want the signatures to be disappeared.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And this is what what I was told by this one political consultant is that this is a more regular policy. practice that in the petition gathering world, this is more of a, more of a common practice than you might believe that these essentially petition signature brokers, you know, the people that you pay to go collect these things.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And it's, you know, there's a handful of states that do this more often than others. California, Florida are two, two big ones, Colorado, Washington state and Ohio, you know, Ohio in various ways. It is. It was one of those you're like, I rarely shocked anymore. But even that one shocked me.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
This is how the Tammany Hall worked. The political machines, that's how they worked. We got rid of them. And in fact... We got rid of the last two in the last few years. There was one remaining machine in Illinois, and that state speaker finally has been put on a corruption trial. The guy's been sort of the head of that machine forever, and they finally got rid of –
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
New Jersey's machines where you got to control ballot access. And literally, here we were, the 21st century, and literally some county hack, if they were connected to the right machine, could decide who got on the ballot and who was on the ballot, but about 17 spaces down the slate so they could make sure. By the copyright notice, yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Oh, the current senator there, Andy Kim, who replaced Bob Menendez, Right. Andy Kim never could have gotten elected senator from New Jersey under any other period until they finally got rid of this corrupt practice in the last year in New Jersey because of the way he's not an establishment guy. He wasn't with any of the machines.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And it's a I it is frustrating to me that generally the public is cynical about politics. They assume they're all corrupt. But specifically, they actually don't realize where the real corruption is versus the ones that are not that corrupt.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
That was something else there at the end.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And in many ways, that has become, I think, the North Star of almost every industry these days, whether it's sports, whether it's politics, whether it's, you know, anything in business, you know, employee issues, whatever it is. Right. The way out of a mess is usually by by some financial contribution or distribution.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
That's right. If I can put the E for explicit on the podcast, I think it helps the downloads, right? Yeah. But let's go back to the fact that I didn't see any candidates in 2022 run on this and they should have run on this. I didn't see candidates in 2024 in Ohio run on this. And we've had some really high profile Senate races, really high profile fights. It's it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And this is why I think so many politicians are afraid of running on the campaign finance issue.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Right. I mean, what donor is there? I think Warren Buffett's about the only billionaire that I feel like has some ethical code. I don't know. Maybe I'm being a little this little little facetious here. But let's just say at times he does. Yes. No, that's exactly that's the point. Right. A billionaire doesn't become a billionaire because they're because they're they look the other.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Yeah. And. I mean, I don't believe there's such thing as a good billionaire supporter in politics and a bad billionaire supporter in politics. And I know that some wealthy people might not like hearing me say that I might hurt my ability to you know, find investment down the road, right? And you need investors to help you, right? Like, you know, this is the trap we're all in sometimes.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
No, we are we are repeating the Gilded Age. I mean, do you feel like we're just rerunning the Gilded Age?
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Maine's always been a little bit. Yeah, they've been they have public financing, I believe.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And he is out with, uh, frankly two feature-length documentaries almost episodic but they're both two-hour documentaries on hbo on dark money um one is a very specific it's sort of it's very much on sort of how dark money this ability to uh take big money in politics, launder it through an organization you've never heard of, Ohioans for love or Americans that love America.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
No. And it's funny. I think that's the way in to make this bipartisan. I think there are some true believers on the right about feeling that it that that it was big corporations that got rid of their, you know, that that gutted their towns. Right. There was one. Right. And. Um, at some point, I mean, I saw it in Montana.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
But there is, you know, and in fact, I think the problem is there's a lot of, well, my donors are good donors. Your donors are bad donors. So there's so-called good billionaires versus the bad billionaires. Well, one person's bad billionaire is another person's political ally. And one person's good billionaire is another person's political opponent.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
There was a bipartisan effort in Montana to try to at least push back on dark money. You saw that, but they also have a, it's a little bit ingrained in their history, right? They, they push back at the copper Kings back in the day. Like it is. And in some, I think Wisconsin has the, the La Follette history, right? The progressive movement in many ways. So there's a little bit of that. Um,
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
But you go to my home state of Florida, Ohio's always had a, frankly, you know, they've had political machines, Illinois, right? There's certain states where it feels like it's always been even freer and easier.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Well, happy Friday and welcome to a special episode of the Chuck Todd cast. So today my guest is frankly, one of probably the, uh, when you think of great, uh, documentarians of our times, I think there's really two that stand out. There's Ken Burns and his documentaries on American history. And there's Alex Gipney who has done some, uh, just groundbreaking work on society and culture.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
So the second film, you explore the sort of this... to you borrow a phrase, an unholy alliance, if you will. Right. Of sorts. But, you know, you know, it's always funny to me. I've always thought that, you know, Donald Trump and Jimmy Swaggart have a lot in common. Right. The sort of the the call it the, now it's called prosperity gospel, if you will.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
But you explore this world of sort of how some of these evangelical grifters, because I think they're the true believers and then they're grifters. And you attack this a little bit, but how sort of the grifter wing of the evangelical movement became fused with the money people, essentially for the corrupt bargain on the judiciary.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And so the question is whether who's who should be manipulating the democracy, right? The voters, the majority or a handful of people with with with their own motivations. And I'll tell you this, man, I will say, you know, Alex Gibney has two. Two different feature length films, but the one about Ohio, it's like a caper. And I don't want to spoil it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Look, it was a clever, it's clever messaging, right? Government's trying to get involved in your religious practice and government gets involved in business. So we should be allies.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And the liberty, religious liberty, a phrase that is sort of, frankly, a political phrase that you've been used and weaponized politically.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Yeah, it looked like he was part of the Randall Terry world, that Operation Rescue.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
that we have such a devotion in our society to money right now, right? You look at college sports and high school sports. You look at, frankly, the world that I'm venturing into. I think it's independent media, but some people call it an influencer game, right? Which is also about, hey, I'm gonna go get mine. Everybody wants to get theirs.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And I had a student, I was giving a lecture this past week at the University of Arkansas's journalism school. And one of the students came up to me and he said, hey, I'm majoring in accounting, but minoring in political science. But I really want to get involved in politics. But I thought, well, money drives everything. So I better I better understand how money works in order to be in politics.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And I would I put my head in my hands and went like, oh, my God, this kid is right. But I wish he wasn't. Right. We do seem to be consumed with money these days as a society. Like it's driving everything, because I think we ultimately believe, well, the only way we only way we can have a we can control our lives is if we have enough money to control it. Like that's become the only the and I and.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
It's a scandal that if you're in Ohio, you probably are familiar with it. But essentially, a candidate was able to take over an entire state legislature. He was not even in office and he became speaker. by essentially being able to finance primary challengers in enough state legislative seats to make sure he had the votes to become speaker himself if he too got elected.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
You know, I don't know if this takes leadership, what it takes. I don't know why we're here, but we're at a moment. And I think it's why we're numb to politics and money in politics, because we think money is driving everything else.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Well, that whole Paul, when Paul Weiss, his managing partner, put out that statement saying we we were trying to see if we had any allies and instead they were poaching our clients. Right. And by the way, so everybody individually rationalizes why they're cutting a deal. Well, it's the best. I'm trying to save the jobs here or I'm trying to.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
So, you know, you you're you're trying to, you know, be able to tell yourself a story, I guess, to hope that, you know, it makes you feel better with what you're doing. And instead, you know, we're all living that there's a great children's book out there called If You Give a Mouse a Cookie. And it keeps going. And they're finding out if you capitulate a little, he's going to keep asking for more.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Look, I don't think traditional media companies have done a pretty good job of standing up for AP at all.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Which before I let you go, I just want to spend a few minutes with tips for young documentarians, because I just think there's nobody like you. You know, there's the fact like you've got either you're both prolific. But I do feel like there's always something different about your docs. Right there. You you you try to make them not just talking heads, right? you know, trading soundbites.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Nothing wrong with that, right? That was a style for a while when you don't have a lot of funding. But you seem to always, let me ask this. Will you only end up doing a doc if you can find a character that will help drive the narrative? I mean, is there, what is the secret sauce in your head of how you can take a story and turn it into an Alex Gibney documentary?
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
The point was, that's how easy it was for essentially one company to write one check and And be able to get an entire legislature to flip in their direction. This didn't flip parties, by the way, just flipped having supporters of what they wanted to get done. And when you realize how easy that is now and you realize that the voters been cut out of this. You know, take the issue of lobbying.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
That's your North Star. You're thinking, how do I make this? Can I make it interesting for somebody that doesn't think that they would want to watch this?
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
By the way, I hope you read my friend Brody Mullins and his brother Luke Mullins wrote something called The Wolves of K Street. It is one of the most compelling books narratives about the history of lobbying. And, you know, they have this great story and, you know, there's so many of, and I know you've been down the lobbying road before.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
It is, it is one, because, you know, they've come to the conclusion that, you know, the lobbying industry now in Washington works this way. It used to be, it was corporations versus the people. Now it's corporations versus other corporations. Essentially, the people are not involved. Different corporations are irrelevant.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
They're all fighting over getting a law that will help their business and put their competitor out of business. There's no longer about whether the citizens think it's a good idea or not. But they wrote it like a same thing. They start with a murder. They start with a death. It does strike me that if you don't have a character, it is sometimes hard to tell these stories.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
What topic do you want to tackle next or are you tackling in the moment?
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Well, you want to talk about compelling? I joke about Elon Musk. If he were a Bond villain, you wouldn't even change the name.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
I mean, he is somebody, the truth is stranger than anything you could come up with. I mean, that Wall Street, I don't know if you saw that Wall Street Journal story.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Yeah. That, yeah. Yeah, the compound. That is something else. Well, Alex Gibney. Yeah, go ahead. The Legion. The Legion.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Oh, my goodness. I mean, sorry, we're all having boys from Brazil flashbacks. Remember? Anyway, Jesus. All right, Alex. Appreciate the time. Great to talk. Dark money game. It's two great feature films. And that's what they are. Feature films that kudos to HBO. I know a lot of people wondered if HBO was still going to be in this game. It's good to see that they're still in this game.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Yeah. No, I add they they I appreciate that they still care about this stuff. So good for them.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Good for you. Thank you, sir. Thanks, Chuck. well i hope you enjoyed that conversation with alex and honestly i'd love look i've gave you my plan all right uh you know let's let's nascar up the candidates wear your donors on your suits wear your donors on your website wear your donors in your political tv ads um but what would you like to see I'd love to see you share your thoughts on this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
You know, one of the books that I've recommended and people have asked me, you know, what's a what's a good book to understand how Washington works? And there's no one book I have. I gave you five books in a previous episode, but one of them is The Wolves of K Street written by Brody and Luke Mullins, two reporter brothers.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Give me a few ideas, bounce them off. The next couple of episodes, I will gather together the most intriguing ones and share them with everybody else. So as you ponder this, as you watch these Alex Gibney feature-length docs on Dark Money, I wonder after if you come up with a different idea than maybe what you had going in. So share me your thoughts there. Throw it in the YouTube comment section.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Send me an email at AskChuck at TheChuckPodcast.com, which, of course, brings me to some Ask Chuck. All right. I'm just going to do one question. I've put up a lot for you guys this week, so I don't want to overload you. But it's a good question. It's kind of a long one, and I think it kind of fits. This one comes from Jim in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. And Jim writes, congratulations on the move.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
I look forward to hearing your points and interviews from an independent viewpoint. In an episode late last summer or early fall, you had mentioned that even if voters have to choose between the two presidential candidates. They have their opportunity to choose their candidates through the primary. Living in Wisconsin, I've never voted in a meaningful presidential primary.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Wisconsin's presidential primary is well after Super Tuesday, and the election slate is set before I have a chance to make my decision. Sure, Wisconsin is always a swing state that helps determine the general election, but it usually feels like the choice is shrimp or scallops. And I'm allergic to shellfish. I like that. Neither are a good option.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
How could voters in states with later primaries feel involved in selecting the presidential candidates when the final candidates are picked in late February or early March? Well, Jim, look, there are so many ways I'd love to fix the presidential primary calendar. And there have been a ton of people who have been on this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
There's some longtime former secretaries of state, particularly in Maryland and Massachusetts, have been – were on this forever. They were desperate to create –
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
a regional system where basically every four years, you know, we would rotate which region went first, you know, sort of, and you would have sort of March would be, you know, the East and April would be the Midwest and May would be the South and June would be the Pacific West or something like that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Brody Mullins, a longtime investigative reporter for The Wall Street Journal, colleague of mine back in my national journal days. And look, it's a great read. This is not like a boring book about lobbying it. Lobbyists are characters. And, you know, a good let me just put it this way. The Mullins brothers are good storytellers.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And you'd rotate it around, you know, you'd give it every, and so that every 20 years, one region, and by the way, you start, you know, There's a very simple – I'm a big advocate of the small states going first, right, whatever it is. But there are small states in every region. So Iowa is great to have as a starter in the Midwest. They could rotate with Kansas or Nebraska.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
But in the mid-Atlantic, maybe you want Delaware to be the first one. Why do I think small states are good to have this as the starting process? Because it makes – it sort of levels the playing field, right? This is a whole episode about money and politics. If we started with California, only the biggest donor, biggest money candidates –
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
would be able to go, whether you started with New York or Florida or Michigan, right? Any of the big states, suddenly that favors the big money candidates. A small state, you know, there's the grassroots. But what we need is a rotation, right? You know, I think people were tired of Iowa going first. People were tired of New Hampshire. Why did these two states get to pick it? You
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And for me, you know, look, I think there certainly should be a logic to this. But here's the problem, right? These rules are usually set by the previous winners. And however a president wins is usually how they want to design the primary calendar. Look no further than what Joe Biden did. So he didn't win Iowa and he didn't win New Hampshire. So what did Joe Biden do?
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
He wanted to make South Carolina the first in the nation primary, right? Right. Now, we never really had a competitive Democratic primary this last cycle. We know why. We probably should have, but that's a debate for another era. So you're right about Wisconsin.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Now, I would argue that Wisconsin has been a – it's been – look, Wisconsin was a really important primary to Ted Cruz and Donald Trump in its sitting in its late April. It was also a pretty important primary to Barack Obama during the Hillary Clinton-Barack Obama long slog to that 2008 fight for the nomination.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And Wisconsin has had a history in the past of being important presidential primary, if you will. There's some Kennedys that have done well in Wisconsin, and it's been important. Reagan-Ford, that certainly was a competitive primary. But I take your point. And really what we need is, again, you know, some of this stuff, it's just simple logic, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And, you know, a regional, you know, we could either do it one of two ways. All the small states, you know, no state with more than four congressional districts. They all go first. They all go in the first month. Then you go, say, five to 10, you know, go in the next month and then you save the big states for the end. There's all sorts of what I think are logical, good ways to do it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
But there's an essential thing that that conclusion that comes out of it that to me is is really striking, which is. You know, when the lobbying industry first became a big deal, it was in the 70s, and it was really thanks to Ralph Nader. Ralph Nader was sort of the – had a very successful time becoming a citizen lobbyist of sorts, started Public Citizen and the PIRGs, both U.S.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
It's like the college football playoff. There's plenty of ways to come up with something that's fair. But the problem is the people in charge of the process don't want to make it fair. They want to rig the system for their side, right? So in this college football playoff, the SEC and the Big Ten are not interested in creating a fair system for all schools.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
They just want a system that's accessible to the Big Ten and the SEC and enough of everybody else to make people think it's fair. And that's what happens kind of in these presidential primary process. Each party kind of decides their calendar. They've mostly tried to do their calendars together because they realize one help, you know, in some ways they're both they both benefited.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
They're both competing in the same state at the same time because they actually, you know, it's like. It's like a small town. You know, if you're a lawyer, you don't want to be the only lawyer in a town. You want to have at least two lawyers so that somebody else can hire a lawyer and you can you can get business. Right. You each can have a lawyer. So there's some there's some synergy in that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
But look, you're you're it. It's a fair point. Right. But there is a part of me that says, hey, quit your complaining in that you get to be the decider in which allergic – which shellfish, which food that could potentially kill you, you get to pick from. But –
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
You know, there's there's definitely a better way to do this, but neither political party seems to be incentivized to be logical about this. There's always a governor. There's always somebody who's got power within the RNC or the DNC that wants to just twist this up. Look what Donald Trump did. He changed all the primary rules for the delegate selection process.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
In these various states to basically make it nearly impossible for anybody to get any traction of enough delegates to make his life miserable at the convention. He created a bunch of winner take all scenarios or nearly winner take all, which which sort of starved. Nikki Haley of any opportunities to chip away at a delegate lead and things like that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
So I certainly, like I said, I gave you two solutions that I believe in. One is a regional by month, four months, March, April, May, and June. And you've split the country up in four. Either do it small states, small, small, medium, medium, large, large, or you do it by regions and you rotate it. And the region part, you would rotate in each one.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Either one would be a fairer system and eventually get more people involved. And here's another benefit. And I know I'm rambling on this one, but I'm obsessed with the presidential primary calendar. I've lived it for 30 years. I have war-gamed this so many different ways.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
My favorite aspect about why it's important to have early presidential primaries, why you want to be a state that does that, because the voters take it fairly seriously. Iowa is not demographically should have never been a swing state for as long as it was. But it was a swing state because the voters appreciated the fact that they were the initial vetters of presidential candidates.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
They took the process seriously and they really did take it. You know, it really was sort of a candidate thing. You know, they vetted candidates, they didn't vet parties. And I think the process created made Iowa and New Hampshire swing states when demographically neither state should have been a comfortable swing state.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
PIRG and state-level PIRGs, MassPIRG, FloridaPIRG, ColoradoPIRG, et cetera, et cetera. And they were having some success at sort of getting government to either regulate big business or push big business to be more consumer friendly. It was thanks to the purgs that got people to not have to wait a week before their paychecks would actually get cashed by the banks.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And we now see now that that that the presidential primary calendar is sort of shifted away in some ways in both states in different in different ways. That now both states are sort of reverting to one's a bit light blue and one's a bit dark red these days. But when they were the centers of the political universe, it kept them in the middle, right? It kept them being a little more –
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
starting from the center out. So I certainly would love to see more states get this opportunity because I think that voters, when they get more of an opportunity to vet these presidential candidates, they start to take their vote a bit more seriously. They take character a bit more seriously. And I think it creates a better process. All right. So with that, appreciate the question.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And I love the opportunity to talk Wisconsin because, hey, The Green Bay Packers right now are hosting the NFL Draft all weekend long. Very exciting. I'm a Packer fan. It's a very exciting time to watch. I can't wait to find out how... I think Packer fans are nicer than most fans, which means the boos for Goodell should be less than usual, but... We shall see.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
With that, I hope you enjoy your weekend. I will give you a full report of the craziness that may or may not take place over the nerd prom weekend of White House Correspondents Weekend. And I'll see you when we upload on Monday.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Banks used to be able to hold your money for a week before you had access to it in your checking account. And they... Help speed that up to to one to three days, you know, and now, of course, it's it's it's instantaneous on those things. But there was a time where banks got to hold your money and it took citizens complaining together.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
So obviously, Nader's most famous for unsafe at any speed, the infamous Covey with the seatbelts. And without him, we wouldn't have airbags and seatbelts and all those things. Right. Well, corporations thought, well, hey, if he could do that, we'll start. We'll hire our own lobbyists.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And for the 70s and 80s and 90s, there were sort of citizen lobbying groups and corporate lobbying groups, and they were often on opposing sides. Well, in the last 25 years, things have gotten so perverted. And gamified that there's very few citizen lobbyists anymore or citizen advocacy groups that have six do successful lobbying. There's some don't get me wrong. They still exist.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
But now what you really have is big businesses sometimes on opposite sides trying to manipulate government so that. A regulation doesn't hurt their business, but hurts the somebody, you know, one of their competitors. And so now you have armies of lobbyists essentially on opposing sides, nobody worrying about the average voter. The point is, it is look, money has obviously corrupted the system.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
I mean, massively. And when you look at what Donald Trump is doing with this meme coin, which is just a blatant bribery scam in plain sight. OK, let's not. It is absolutely that. Right. He puts out an announcement that says, hey, I'm going to have dinner with the top whatever it is of his meme code holder. So what does it do? More people buy the coin so they can get access to the president. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
You know, his club at Mar-a-Lago is a legalized bribe. Right. He raised the price after he became president. He doubled the cost of membership at Mar-a-Lago. And what does he do? Basically, people now know they just buy a membership of Mar-a-Lago and they get access to the president and likely the president's aides and likely all the cabinets. This is this is.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
This is basically legalized bribery in plain sight, right? And there really is no – other than ethical standards, there's no legal way to stop this. And I'm old enough to remember when a lot of Republicans were outraged when Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton hosted –
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
fundraiser coffees in the White House where they were essentially giving people access to the White House so they could ask for money later. And there was a lot of people uncomfortable with that. And, you know, boy, I think we all long for the days when that was the scandal when it came to money in politics. And now it's on a whole nother level. And I do think we've become numb, unfortunately.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And this is where I am... I am not – I don't have a great answer on what works. I think I fall into disclosure, disclosure, disclosure and limiting and instant – and the transparency. I'm for the NASCARization of money in politics, meaning I think we should allow unlimited donations to candidates, but we shouldn't be able to have super PACs and third-party groups. Fine.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And thanks to Citizens United, and you're going to hear a lot about this, the ability to spend big money on politics, move big money and do so more anonymously than ever has never been easier. And I'll be honest, I'm somebody who's been a bit of a skeptic of attempts to try to reform and get money out of the system. You know, you know, I'm one of those.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
You want to be a candidate for office? You want to take a billion-dollar check from Elon Musk? The only requirement is that every TV ad you run, you have to say that I'm Joe Schmenke and this ad was paid for by Elon Musk and this person and this person, right? Anybody that gave you, say, over $250,000, you've got to actually name check them all the time. You've got to say who you're paid for.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
You've got to wear their logo, if you will, just like NASCAR drivers wear the logos of their sponsors. You've got to wear the logos of your donors, right? You've got to say their name all the time. And here's the thing. If you did that, I promise you most donors would come up. You know, I've got a friend of mine who regularly gives donations, but he always gives it to federal candidates.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
But he only he only gives one hundred ninety nine dollars at a time. And you know why he only gives $199 at a time? Because he doesn't have to – you can take anonymous donations under $200.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
But any donation you take in a federal campaign of $200 or more, you've got to identify who in the FEC database, in the federal election database, who gave you – everybody who wrote you a check or sent you money of $200 or more. Right. So I do believe those thresholds, you sort of can create market incentives to prevent sort of certain things.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
So unlimited contributions, but if they give you more than $99,999, you've got to name check them all of your paid advertising all the time, not just once. Not just sort of in a small print at the bottom, you know, where you see that sometimes Democratic mailers will have to let you know the union paid for it. Or when you look carefully, these super PACs paid for by Americans who love Americans.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
Who the hell is that group, right? That's the sort of the misinformation money we've got to get out of politics. I think what Americans accept is competition, transparent competition. And so ultimately, I'm a sunshine guy. I believe transparency with speech. I don't know if we can limit speech. I believe good speech will drown out bad speech. In this case, I'm hopeful that sunshine can do this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
But I understand the frustration, and I know some well-meaning people who think we should have – You know, maybe they publicly funded campaigns. The problem with that is either you're everything's publicly funded or none of it is. You can't sort of go half in and half out. And whenever we've played with public funding, there's always a mechanism to go around it. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And then and of course, wealthier candidates or popular candidates who can raise a ton of money have been able to do that. So whatever it is, I think we've got to come up with a system that does a couple of things. Number one is prevents dark money. You just can't do this. I don't believe... If you want to get involved... in anything funded by American taxpayers, you don't get to be anonymous.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
I'm sorry. And I know the argument for anonymous money is, well, it might be that the person giving the money doesn't want the blowback. Well, then don't get involved in politics, right? If you're trying to manipulate the system in your favor, the price of admission is public disclosure.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And if it's not important enough to you for you to publicly disclose yourself, then OK, then you're not participating. You get an option to do it. But disclosure is is the price to to essentially buy a member of Congress, buy a U.S. senator or buy a president. But the way we're doing it now, which is this sort of open, you know, and it it is sort of.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
I sort of bow at the altar of Jeff Goldblum's character in Jurassic Park when the old man is trying to tell you that he can keep keep those dinosaurs from breeding because he made them all female and everything. And Goldblum is playing the mathematician, the chaos theory guy says life finds a way. Well, I've always felt that about money in politics, right? Money finds a way.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
In some ways, we've made it where, you know, there was an old joke, I think it's Everett Dirksen that said this, you know, a millionaire and a millionaire, and eventually you have real money. And it's like, it's a billion here and a billionaire, and eventually, you know, we're starting to talk about real money.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
But I think there's certainly the cynicism that's out there, the distrust of politicians and politics, all centers around how important money has become in manipulating the system. And so- I do think the only way you can get – because right now, anytime you try to limit money, limit donations in different ways, one party believes it's going to hurt them more than the other.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And so then you get sort of a – everybody gets into their partisan corners about the issue. Ultimately, I think transparency is one of those things that everybody should be for. I'm old enough to remember when Mitch McConnell, who was a big opponent of McCain-Feingold, his alternative solution was instant disclosure. Right? I think people should run with instant disclosure.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
I'm surprised campaign reform advocates today aren't saying, yes, what Mitch McConnell introduced 25 years ago, it's that and then some. But the bottom line is we know we have to do something about this. There aren't a lot of easy answers. Citizens United, you know, if you want to make the argument that corporations also can go into free speech, fine.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
But we've got to know you're you're the ones buying this speech. If you want free speech, you shouldn't be able to hide while exercising your free speech. If you want access to to the public debate, you're more than welcome to do it. But you've got to show your face. You've got to disclose that it's your money doing it. Corporation A or Corporation Y. So.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
And in fact, I do think that's the least partisan solution that might actually have some effort at least slowing down the growth of influence of money in politics. So that's the Chuck Todd solution there, which is the NASCARization of politics. Where are your donors? If you will show us your donors, put them on your jacket, have to stand by your donors.
The Chuck ToddCast
Dark Money Has Corrupted American Politics
You're welcome to as big of a donation as you want, but you've got to let the public know I'm bought and paid for by these people. I promise you, if that's the law, people will want to limit how much they want to be associated with an individual political candidate. or whether that candidate wants to be associated for that kind of price with any individual corporate or billionaire interests.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
So I was there during that early stage of conflict. Did you always view it, was the conventional wisdom at the time among those people you reported to, that essentially we were in a proxy war with China or a proxy war with the Soviets here? Or was it not seen as that yet?
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Anytime any of these guys that have run for office over the last 20 years, 30 years, who claim they couldn't remember how they got out of Vietnam or couldn't remember this or couldn't remember that, all I would remember is my dad's file folder. And I'm like, if you were that concerned about getting out of Vietnam, you knew every gosh darn detail of how you got out. Oder was es nehmen würde.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Hitlerian aggression. Don't make that mistake, right? It does, boy, talk about fighting, that's the old fighting the last war. So this is getting caught fighting the last war.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Denken Sie, dass wir tatsächlich, es ist interessant, ich stimme dazu, dass wir wahrscheinlich über den Vietnames-Hangover sind, wenn es um den Einfluss auf unsere Politik geht. und der Militär. Aber ich würde sagen, dass wir jetzt in einer anderen Situation sind, und das ist die Irakische Krieg.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Ich denke, die zweite Irakische Krieg hat wahrscheinlich diesen Einfluss auf unsere Psyche, unsere politische Psyche, links und rechts, gerade jetzt, das ist sehr ähnlich zu dem, was Vietnam in den 70er und 80er Jahren in Amerika getan hat.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Although no boots on the ground in Ukraine, but let's say that. No, no, and yet we still might pull the plug.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Und ich werde es euch sagen, ich habe mich immer mehr als eine harsche Person auf irgendwelche Politiker gesetzt, die sagen würden, schau, ich begrüße niemanden, der versucht hat, davon herauszukommen. Und es sind diese Erfahrungen. Und in vielen Fällen waren viele Baby-Boomer-Politik entweder definiert oder redefiniert durch den Einfluss der Vietnam-Ware.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
You're describing the last year of Afghanistan, by the way, also. I know. Yes.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
My favorite nugget about Henry's accent is that his brother didn't have one.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Yes, it was intentional. Arnold, by the way, somebody told me Arnold Schwarzenegger can turn it on and off too. Anytime he wants. Brian, let me introduce a thesis to respond to the ambassador on this. It's called daily press coverage, daily news coverage. Something Korea was more controlled. World War II, even more controlled.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
The first war that had sort of lost control of the media narrative was Vietnam. And then arguably, you saw this, in the initial invasion of Iraq, there was an attempt to manage media in ways with the embedding of reporters. But again, the daily battlefield reports as he just...
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
You can't help but wonder how much daily media coverage has made it harder in a small d democracy to fulfill what the ambassador is saying, right? Why is it so hard for US policy, for US leaders to fulfill a policy of sticking to the friend in South Vietnam, sticking with the friend in Afghanistan, sticking with the friends in Ukraine? Well, it's political pressure, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
And it's one of those things, perhaps if Korea had more, less controlled media attention, that that doesn't have the same, that that ends up having a bigger impact. I don't know what to say.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
So you couldn't have done it with D-Day. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
I mean, I mean. So, Brian, what do you think of that? Do you think that that's a fair? I mean, look, it is what it is. Welcome to this. You know, this war was televised.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
The satellite was just kicking in, yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Also, meine Gäste heute sind Brian Knappenberger. Er ist der Mann hinter dem unglaublichen Dokument, das jetzt überall auf Netflix steht, Turning Point, über Vietnam. And John Negroponte, who is, of course, a longtime ambassador, mostly in Republican national security circles. He was in Vietnam from 64 to 68. He was there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
I hear you, Ambassador, but that's the problem, right? And this is where the one symbolic, you know, you may have one rogue platoon, but if it got caught on camera...
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Well, you know, I'm a believer that transparency is better at the end of the day, but I understand that it could become a problem when you're trying to manage a media narrative.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
All right, let me ask you this, Ambassador. We lost the Vietnam War, but won the Cold War. What does that tell us about whether Vietnam was worth it?
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
That's interesting. How do you rectify that question, right? Which is, we win the Cold War, but we lost Vietnam. Therefore, was Vietnam worth it or not? Which has always been a tough question to deal with.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
What's your assessment of why we lost?
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
And in this interview, you'll hear, I mean, in many ways, he kind of still supports the idea. You know, he doesn't. begrudgt die Idee, dort zu sein, und glaubt immer noch, dass es eine rechtliche Grundlage für das Gehen gab. Es ist also eine wichtige Kontrabalance in dieser Konversation, die Sie hören werden.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
I have to tell you, just a quick aside. There's a great alternative history show. It's on Apple about going to Mars and the space race and this alternative history that has America losing the race to the moon. The Soviets win the race to the moon. How would America react? All this stuff. And one of the premises in that
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
is that Nixon only serves one term, not two, and therefore the taping mechanisms never found out about. And then we get like six more presidents and all of these incredible tape recordings of all this. I mean, in some ways, Watergate ruined historians' ability to have incredible first-hand knowledge of these presidents' thinking. You know, it's a bummer.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Oh, they both were that narcissistic, sorry.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Aber schauen Sie, wir kommen dazu, wie Vietnam in vielen Fällen noch heute unsere Politik beschädigt. You could argue Vietnam plus the Iraq war coupled together, right, has now impacted multiple generations and sort of impacted multiple presidencies and how they manage national security and how we make these decisions. So, look, I think it's...
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Look at the boomers today. I always sit there and say, look at the generation, look at baby boomers today. What is their coming of age moment? It is Vietnam, it's the 60s and all of this. And the more scholarship there is, the more they found out their government didn't tell them the full truth about, okay, clearly the CIA was doing something with Oswald. Why won't you tell us the full story?
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
You go through all these things. Und wisst ihr was? Es sind die Boomers, die die Regierung beantworten und die Dinge in manchen Fällen aufschlagen. Die Boomers werden immer wieder Präsidenten gewählt, was für mich interessant ist. Kein Vietnam-Veteran ist jemals zum Präsidenten gekommen, was auch, glaube ich, kein Unfall ist. Carrie kam nahe, aber der einzige Vietnam-Veteran, um so nahe zu kommen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Ich glaube, McCain auch. Aber der Fakt, dass wir nie gewählt wurden, ist, glaube ich, kulturell auch ziemlich bedeutend.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Well, it's not yet in the sphere of influence of Iran, right? Which was the great fear that we were just liberating Iraq in order to become a province of Iran, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Brian, I am fascinated by the post-Vietnam impact. My wife asked me this question recently, and I had a thesis, and I'm curious if you agree on this, that how did the military become a Republican constituency? And I go back to Carter's decision to pardon the Draft Dodgers. as a line in the sand. I grew up in Miami.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
No matter what age group you belong to, I think you're going to enjoy this conversation. And if you've seen Turning Point, then you'll really enjoy this conversation as sort of an after action type of conversation. So look, it's a special that I'm dropping because it's kind of standalone. I don't want to get any modern politics stuck to it here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
The Bay of Pigs is a reason why every Cuban today is still more likely to be a Republican than a Democrat. They blame Kennedy for not going back. They're angry at Kennedy to this day. You have exiles, so many Cubans were raised, hey, don't trust the Democrats on this, the Republicans have your back, type of mindset. Do we think the pardoning of the draft dodgers had that kind of impact politically?
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Yeah, I was, I bowed at that too. Brian, what did you feel like you found during this documentary about that question or about that issue in general?
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
I just know there's still older military veterans who still look at Draft Dodgers with skepticism. That's why it was such a big deal with Bill Clinton. Honestly, I think it was a bigger deal for Bill Clinton because he was a Democrat and it was less of a deal for Bush and Cheney because they were Republicans. Und Dan Quayle. Und Dan Quayle. Und Dan Quayle.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Aber es war weniger ein Problem auf der rechten Seite, als es war auf der linken Seite, weil davon. Ich denke. Aber das ist nur die Theorie.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
I'll tell you, you want to talk about something that I think culturally Das, was die Amerikaner gelernt haben, ist, dass sie die Infanterie-Männer nicht für politische Entscheidungen verantwortlich halten. Und bis heute schauen Sie sich jedes Nats-Spiel, das ich tue an, an. Wir wägen die Hände für die Truppen, weil ich denke, wir alle wissen,
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
zurück zu dem, was der Ambassador gesagt hat, das sollte an der Ecke des Wassers aufhören, richtig?
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Man kann nicht schulden, dass diejenigen, die entlassen wurden, für eine Vielfalt von Gründen oder damals verabschiedet wurden, ja, du weißt, du kannst sie nicht verantwortlich halten für politische Entscheidungen, aber ich erwähne noch ein anderes Thema, weil es mich erschockt hat, als ich darüber gelernt habe, dass ich nach Vietnam gegangen bin, wie ich erwähnt habe, war ich dort drei und eine halbe Jahre lang und ich bin endlich
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Aber ich denke, es ist eine faszinierende Konversation und ich denke, Sie werden es genießen. Also genießen Sie diese besondere Extra-Edition des Chuck-Podcasts diese Woche.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Es ist eine Art, den Schmerz zu beheben. Ich meine, ich habe es nicht in diesen Terminen zu sagen, aber es ist so, wie sie den Schmerz beheben.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
I puzzle over that. Are you sure that we didn't have these issues?
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Right, and I think that's why we treat the Iraq and Afghanistan veterans with a lot more respect.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Even in a war we won, Brian, right? There were plenty of World War II veterans that did come back with these same issues, but in some ways they got less attention. Part of that is just generational, right? Men didn't talk about those things, a little bit of that. But some of it also had to do with, we just didn't, Because we won, we didn't look backwards as much.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Is that a fair statement? It's true. I think we know dealing with it as a crime is a bad idea. We kind of have figured that out, sort of. And then we still end up dealing with it like a law enforcement issue. Ultimately, it clearly is a mental health challenge, but we still don't know how to do mental health. Yeah, we don't. Nein, nicht genug.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Brian, zeig mir mehr von den fünf, wie viel von dem ist es um den Krieg selbst und die politischen Debatte während des Krieges? Wie viel ist es um den kulturellen Einfluss auf die Linie? Wie würdest du sagen, dass du dein Zeit auf das splittest?
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Ich schätze, du hast dieses Show auf Max gebingen, das über Vietnam geht, aber aus der Perspektive des Norden. Es war ein interessanter Satire, ich kann mich nicht mehr erinnern. Oh, der Sympathizer.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Yeah, it's sort of dark satire. You know, it's serious, but there's some satire to it. But I found that, Brian, so necessary, right? We just don't, you know, you gotta understand what, it's just like with World War II, we're all trying to figure out, were all Germans Nazis? Or was the, you know, and we know all Germans weren't Nazis, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
It was sort of sometimes that happens and not all, you know, And getting that perspective, you know, obviously is helpful. But as a civil war, when did Vietnam recover from this civil war? Right. Arguably, it took America maybe to World War Two before we, you know, or the Civil Rights Act before we fully recovered from our civil war, depending on how you want to look at it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
When do we feel like the Vietnamese recovered from that civil war?
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Well, today we have a special treat. As many historians and folks of a certain age may know, we're coming up. This is the 50th anniversary of the fall of Saigon. It's hard to believe the Vietnam War is that far in our past for so many Americans. It does not feel like something that is that far in our past. And yet, here I am in my 50s and I was born during the Vietnam War.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Brian, was machst du mit dem Fakt, dass wir 1, 2, 3, 4 haben? Ich bin ein bisschen auf der Bühne darüber, ob Obama als Baby-Boomer-Präsident oder nicht zählt, weil er nie gewechselt wurde. Er war nicht 18, während der Vietnam-Ware. Für mich, wenn du 18 warst, während der Vietnam-Ware, an jedem Zeitpunkt in dieser 10-jährigen Periode, dann bist du Teil dieser Ära. Aber
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Well, happy Friday, that's right, I've snuck in a special edition of the Chuck Todd cast, both of course in the audio and visual space. My guess for this, it's a special on the, look, we just passed the 50th anniversary of the fall of Saigon, essentially the end of the Vietnam War.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Wir hatten vier Baby-Boomer-Präsidenten, aber nicht einen Vietnam-Veteranen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
And even some of the... It wasn't true with our World War II veterans, right? We got a lot of presidents out of World War II, starting with Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson. I mean, all these guys fought in World War II. Yeah. Bush, you know, only Reagan was of that era and didn't. He was sort of... Well, he was in the Hollywood... Right, he was doing his work, doing other things. Making movies.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Right, but... Manche würden sagen, das ist eine Art und Weise, mit dem Effort zu helfen. Aber der Punkt war, er war tatsächlich ein Ausländer seiner Generation, wo wir nicht mal den Ausländer dieser Vietnam-Generation haben, Brian.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Filled our United States Congress. Just filled it. Those bipartisan groups were really important to keeping us on the rails. I mean, I've always thought that, and in fact, the lack of Vietnam veterans now in the U.S. Senate is, you know, that was a bipartisan team. You're Bob Kerry, you're Chuck Hagel, you're John Kerry, you're John McCain.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
You know, they would band together and it would help create some bonds. And perhaps Iraq creates that in another 10 or 15 years as that generation matures and takes some leadership. But I don't know. It might.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Bob Dole and Dan Inouye.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Right, left, right. They were in the same hospital together. You know, they bonded, you know, and that mattered.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Yeah, I'm not sure. Not yet, but they could be. And it is interesting, Brian, for all the... Think about what's happened to the Vietnam vets, and yet think about the one government institution that still has bipartisan support in the country. It's the military. And I don't think following Vietnam, culturally, one would have expected that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
And I think one of my guests, Brian Knappenberger, was also born in the 50s. During the Vietnam War, we're also joined by a former ambassador to Vietnam for the United States, John Negroponte, who was ambassador, who was in Saigon for four years, 64 to 68. So Brian Appenberger is the documentarian behind a terrific five part series about the Vietnam War on Netflix.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
What do you think, volunteer army is better than a drafted army? And do you think that's the reason?
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
I'm not so sure of that. I do think shared sacrifice is something we're missing as a country. But Brian, I want you to tackle that question too, please.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
The VA was created in some ways as a response to distrust by soldiers of the Pentagon. That's why we have it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
I will promise you this. If it is getting gutted, that's bad politics and it will get restored pretty quickly. Like that is the one thing you can. I think that they're touching a few things that are third rails and that they're going to find out or are going to electrocute them politically. Yeah, I mean, there's Chelsea.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
And honestly, it's disrespectful to the people who really deserve... Especially when you have such a... It's always been tenuous, the trust at the VA, more so than most, because... Right. Who is getting the lion's share of health care right now? It's the Vietnam veteran generation. And who began with the most distrust of the military? The Vietnam veteran generation. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Like it is it is not an accident. So it's like, guys, you're messing this up of all generations to start short circuiting things. That's the last one you should be doing.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
That matters to my uncle, who's still a live Vietnam vet. He's like... He doesn't like the chicken hawks. He gets really angry at chicken hawks, as he calls it. He says, I want people who have had to deal with war, deciding whether something's worth sending troops over for.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
He'll support it, but he wants to know that somebody in there has had to pull the trigger, has actually had to do the worst part. He goes, because if you can stare into that abyss and you still believe this is righteous, okay. But you've got to be able to have stared into that. It's an interesting perspective.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
We're about done here. Well, let me wrap you up.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
This is great. And let me wrap up right. Ambassador, I will let you go, but let me let you go with this question. Which is the fall of Saigon, leaving Saigon and leaving Afghanistan. How similar, how different?
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Well, I am happy to let you go if you need to run. Brian, let me wrap up with you this way, which is, how do you think that the 75th anniversary of the Fall of Saigon... What does that retrospective look like with all of the folks that were involved with Vietnam, no longer around? Really, it will be people like you and I who are in our 70s or 80s telling stories about our fathers.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
By the time you're hearing this, I hope you've already been watching at least one, possibly two episodes. They're terrific. And it's an attempt to tackle the war from all sorts of angles during the moment itself, the cultural impact, the political impact. But I will shut up here a minute. Brian, you describe what you're hoping people get out of Turning Point.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Listen to what John said. Sie haben gesagt, warum wollten wir nicht einen anderen Münchner holen? Was hat uns in Vietnam gebracht? Wir wollten keinen anderen Münchner holen. Warum sind so viele von uns, und ich halte mich für jemanden, der sehr unterstützt ist, dass wir alles tun können für die Ukraine. Warum machen wir das? Wegen der Lektion von München und diesen europäischen Lektionen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Du hast recht, dass in manchen Fällen... There are still lessons to be learned from World War II. And before World War II, frankly, we haven't dealt with the fall of the Ottoman Empire very well, but that's a whole other... That drives me crazy. I always joke, we've resolved World War II.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
We never resolved World War I. We're still dealing with the fallout of World War I every day in the Middle East. But that's for another podcast.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Ambassador, this was a treat. It was great to get your perspective.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Always great to talk to you. I actually think we captured, Brian, this sort of debate. And this is exactly, I think, what makes your documentary brilliant, is you do this. You bring in voices that disagree, that sort of explain, when you put it all together, you see how it all unfolded. So, thank you both. This was terrific.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
So I told you it was pretty lively, the back and forth there. And I think John Negroponte, I think it was a, you know, there's sort of a conventional wisdom about the war and the aftermath and the politics of it. And he tried to challenge that conventional wisdom, which I think made for a healthier conversation. So I hope you appreciated this special edition.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
And 50 years later, as an historian, where Vietnam was sort of I always felt like I was culturally and politically brought up in response to the Vietnam War in my household. I'm sure you felt that way too. We didn't experience it. So I'm constantly consuming scholarship on Vietnam to just understand how my dad's brain worked. And he's no longer with us, but he was of that era.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Like I said, you know, we're going to drop these every now and then, especially when we think it's, you know, these momentous occasions that we do need to sometimes stop. Take our temperature of where things are. We don't teach enough history these days, even though we've never had more documentaries available to us.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
But in many ways, particularly in the sort of fast pace of the news cycle these days, sometimes we don't sit back and sort of simmer, if you will, in a topic as often. As much as we should. So I thought it was important to have this standalone. Hope you appreciate it. So we're going to skip any viewer questions for this episode.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
But of course, if you've got some questions or comments about this episode or anything else, you can drop them in the YouTube comments section. You drop them on our Instagram feeds, anywhere where we post on socials. Or you can just simply send an email to AskChuck at TheChuckPodcast.com So with that... I'll see you Monday when we upload again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
I have this distinct memory after he died. of finding this file folder. He didn't have to go, but he had kept meticulous records of all of his deferments. And then when his lottery number happened to be high, everything it took, and that's why I've never accepted a politician who says they're not sure how they got out of Vietnam.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
I'm like, oh yeah, my dad, who was no rich guy or anything, he kept meticulous notes about his status. But for me, it was all about not being there. That was always the goal of people. You were there having not having a gun or my uncle who immediately threw his uniform away. Yeah. When he came back to the States after having served and to this day doesn't like talking about it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
So what what's what do you hope people take away from Turning Point?
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
And look, Vietnam has sort of defined our... For half the country or anybody over the age of 50, Vietnam has been a definer of our politics. I mean, I can just tell you about my own family. My father... We'll tell you he's no longer with us, but he would say to me, the reason he became a Republican is he blamed LBJ for Vietnam and the death of his best friend.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
You know, the 1950s in some way was almost peak trust, right? There was like, in some ways, at least Für bestimmte Amerikaner. Ich will nicht hier sitzen und sagen, dass Afrikaner keine hohe Vertrauen in die Regierung in den 1950ern hatten. Ich will das anerkennen. Aber bei weißen Amerikanern gab es eine echte Vertrauen in die Regierung.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
um eisenhower was a hero so here here was the president that saved the you know the general that saved the world who was america's president so that added to the level of trust and then just a rapid fire series of events right the kennedy assassination escalation into vietnam watergate um i might add in the um
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
the decision to pardon the draft dodgers but i want to get into that a little bit later um and in some ways you're right it was sort of this the cynicism of today its roots are in are in this decision to go to vietnam yeah i think so i mean i think in your intro you even mentioned that the war does not feel like it's in our past and it doesn't and this is this is one of the ways i mean you get it haunted both iraq wars yes yeah right like it haunted both iraq wars i'd argue yeah in different ways
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Was ich mit diesem Dokumentarfilm für dich fasziniert habe, ist, dass du Dokumente gemacht hast, in denen du die Erfahrung gelebt hast, die du in der Geschichte von 9-11 gemacht hast. Üblicherweise auch in der Köln-Krieg. Das ist etwas, das du nicht wirklich gelebt hast. Du musst zurückgehen und es verstehen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Through what lens do you feel like you made the Vietnam War, this documentary? Through what lens do you feel like you used to make this documentary?
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
I don't think we ever talk about the war itself. It's always about the fallout of the war. It's about what happened to soldiers, those who didn't want to serve versus who were forced to serve. You're right, we don't actually talk about what happened on the ground as much. But I want to tap into something else you and I both discussed.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Look, personal events always dictate these things. His best friend, my dad had not the easiest childhood, and I'll just leave it at that, but his best friend that sort of was a stabilizing force in childhood, got killed in a training, basically on his way to being sent to NAM. He was drafted and in the training mission, died there. And You know, I now realize my dad never got over losing him.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
His best friend died in a training accident after being drafted to go into Vietnam. I'll never forget when I was going through my dad's things. He had a whole file folder on every time he had to deal with potentially going to Vietnam. And he didn't have to go. And he didn't want to go. He had a medical deferment at first. He had flat feet.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
So for him, he blamed Johnson and it was visceral. It was visceral. You said your father had that same feeling towards Nixon. And it's like, I run into this. You either are angry at Nixon or you're angry at Johnson.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Ambassador, you're hearing this, and I know you've gone through this so many times, but I'm fascinated to know what you thought the war, what was going on in 1964 when you were there, when what you were leaving, when you left in 68, and what you feared when you left.
The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
And then when that didn't work, he got lucky with his lottery number. But what was interesting is how he had saved all of that. And he had all this information. And I'll tell you why it had a huge impact on me.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
You've got to live here. You've got to have a house here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
have courts that are characterized by the closeness to power is equals the more power you have yeah i'm glad you just used that phrase that's exactly this is this is his court totally right you know he has certain people that he wants in it to play with until he's tired of them Right. And he's, by the way, and he'll get tired of them. We know this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
And I think Mark Caputo, of all the Trump beat writers, probably has the best insight on how this version of Trump world operates. And I say this version because I said it in the previous update and I'll say it again, which is the biggest mis the biggest. mistake everybody has made with Trump 2.0 is assuming Trump 1.0 was a blueprint or a model.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
We just don't know who get, in what order do they get ostracized and replaced?
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
All right. But let's talk about because I think the biggest fear many, many folks had, including myself, was what if we all look, I think we all assume the markets were going to be a guardrail with Trump on these policies. And it's for the entire weekend. You're like, oh, no. What if this is Thelma and Louise? What if he's like, you know what? I ain't running again. I always wanted to do this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
I believe in it. And I don't I'm never going to be poor. What do I care? Let's go. Right. And then he did finally change course. What did it? Is it who spooked him? Who scared him? Who had the ear? Who is the real guardrail here? Is it Bessa?
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
And they all have him on speed dial, don't they? Correct. Between him and her, they all have these two cell phones. So they were getting direct agitated calls, correct?
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
And it is gold. It is the gold bar of the 21st century. Gold bars are great. Treasury bonds are greater, are greater.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yet, dear leader, yet, you know, Levitt, the Baghdad Bob, God, what is she doing? She's doing what she's supposed to do. That's her job. Yeah, I guess. But it really does feel like Baghdad Bob has met North Korea between that and these and these reports about his golfing.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
I think it is pretty clear now Trump 1.0 was the Mike Pence presidency, because it was Mike Pence and Reince Priebus who built that cabinet, who built that staff, who built that team. I'd probably throw Jared Kushner in there as sort of the third guy in here that Kushner
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Well, please. I used to tell this of people that, you know, I told this to my friend, Kristen Walker, once, who was paranoid that she was going to miss something.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
At first, I was like, first of all, yes, you're going to miss something. Yeah. But I promise you, literally, the day you get back, there'll be seven new developments that will make it irrelevant that you missed something. Mark, I say the same thing to you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
I'm sure you really actually did miss a thing.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Jared Kushner would have Jared Kushner would have done their leak, their official leak to the Vanity Fair reporter that they used to do.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Prices. I mean, my my I remember, you know, it was sort of like Kamala equals high prices. Trump equals low prices. Right. Like that was the they were putting out yard signs that said that towards the end.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
That's a good edit there. People will not even know we were missing. So. It's interesting comparing Trump one and Trump two, because the more you know, there was a whole group of voters who told us, well, you know, they thought that a Trump one wasn't so bad. Right. And it turns out, well, Trump won was an entirely different administration.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Trump won was the Mike Pence Reince Priebus administration. Those two basically filled the cabinet, filled the White House staff for the first year. And in some ways it it it ended up populating in parts for the entire four years. And it was a series of. essentially professional conservatives who were guardrails on Donald Trump's crazy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Donald Trump figured that out by a year or two into his first term and wasn't going to let that happen again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
The latter category, Marco Rubio, who decided they wanted the accent that they were willing to trade their potential reputation. You know, by the way, what do you make of you said that there wasn't many leaks? There was there was somebody friendly to Besant who was leaking. Oh, he wants. And you and I both know Trump isn't going to like that. No.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Priebus and Pence were stabilizing forces for conventional economic thinking, conventional national security thinking and conventional day to day governance of the larger entity that is the federal government. And it's pretty clear that by the time Trump got to the end of his first term, He knew exactly what happened, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
And I wonder how much rope, how much leeway Besson's going to get or if he better he better fix that at some point. Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
By coincidence, before Trump made his announcement, Owen Cass, who is sort of more of an ideological guy who's been sort of works at one of the think tanks that are trying to create intellectual an intellectual argument for Trumpism. You know, we can debate, you know, some of these, but but he at least laid out. A way you could have done all this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
That would have given some certainty to given the business community time to absorb, given trading partners time to negotiate. Should we look at that as the model now? Are they now going, OK, let's let's try to be more orderly about this? And should we expect something a bit more orderly going forward or or is Trump going to get impatient again? Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
But conversely, he also realized that... The market's getting... As we're talking now, the market, you know, it was a one-day reprieve, right? About half of it's been given back because we are in a full-on trade war with China.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
You know, the biggest problem Donald Trump has right now is, you know, one of the things that I would look, I think if he wanted to do this, he should have done his tax cut first. And by the way, let me ask about that. Is there any regret that they misordered this? Because he could have essentially given people their tax cut, given the business community what they wanted, certainty on that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
And then done this, you know, a carrot and stick approach, I think is I think this tax cuts going to get harder and harder to get. I think we're seeing right now the more uncertainty in the actual economy, the more you're going to have resistance trying to do this Republican alone with there. Is there anybody in that West Wing right now that. wonders if they basically misordered their agenda?
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
He went through four national security advisors because he didn't like any of them. He went through four chiefs of staff until he got the most compliant one in Mark Meadows, right? And so when he built Trump 2.0, he made sure he wasn't going to have somebody that wasn't essentially loyal to his vision, loyal to his ideas.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
I mean, the tax cut, even if they get it now, it's not going to have any... People aren't going to feel like it had any impact on their lives. Not whatsoever, because you're going to have this inflationary period.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
And here's the other thing they gave up, Mark, is they gave up the ability to blame Biden for the economy now. This is now all Donald Trump's economy. Like he like he created this shakiness now for better or for worse. Obviously, if it works, he gets a bunch of credit.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
But right now, you know, and you're seeing it in the you know, look, it's YouGov and Quinnipiac, both of whom I could have methodological arguments about why I don't like I don't trust. I think both polls can over exaggerate the moment. But directionally, they're in the same place. His numbers approval on the economy look as bad as Biden.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Where's the shovel? Where is. any shovel going into the ground on a new factory, like if I were Donald Trump, I'd be desperate for that symbol right now. I'd go to the opening if I could find some company to break ground on some T-shirt factory that is moving from Vietnam. Right. Like, you know, a one thing I thought Trump was usually smart about was was sort of showman, symbolistic showmanship.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
And they don't even have that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Yeah. I want to ask you about the Chris Krebs thing and the Miles Taylor thing, because it does seem as if... Is there a list? Is he going down a list of like, okay, I'm going to get my revenge? Is it Stephen Miller? Is there somebody that's the keeper of this? Because Donald Trump forgets half the enemies that he has.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
But I am curious. Is this... Is just Miller just assisting in executing the plan or is he the keeper of the flame on this stuff?
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
And he certainly wasn't gonna use his running mate pick to quote unquote, build a bridge to another wing of the party. Now look, he had picked Mike Pence because he needed to try to heal. He needed to try to reach out to a wing of the party that was skeptical of him, the evangelical community. And he thought Pence would help him with that as well as mainstream conservatives.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Well, what's the you know, are they really doing an investigation or are they sending a message to any potential whistleblower in Trump 2.0?
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Yeah. All he did was say, hey, the election wasn't stolen.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Is that the role Todd Blanche is supposed to play at the O.J., that he's there to to sort of make make other people's lives miserable?
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
He executes the investigations, but it seems like Blanche is.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Totally. No, no, no. That's what I was curious. Like, how much of this is a piece of paper more to threaten the current government? you know, mid-level staffers who who might get, you know, ideas in their head that, hey, I work for the taxpayers. Maybe I tell the truth. Right. That that happens for a lot of even political appointees.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
They sort of they can feel the weight and they start to, you know, waver.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
You really think it's I just do.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
And then he didn't know anything about how Washington worked. And so he delegated a lot of authority to Mike Pence. And Mike Pence, I think, you know, is the more people are learning about the job he did and the things he did that we didn't see every day. You know, there's a core competency to Mike Pence.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
It's just slippery slope stuff.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Every single person will get a pardon if they, if he deems them worthy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
I was just going to say, so if you, uh, If you turn on him at all or you cause him in his head political harm, he may not give you that part.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
So I'm going to take advantage of something I learned from you when we last saw each other about a week or so ago about HHS. And what's intriguing to me is, look, lost in all of the tariff, the liberation from our savings day that took place last week was the fact that Bobby Kennedy Jr., said that the measles vaccine was the best way to prevent measles. He shows up in the community
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
That doesn't seem like a decision Bobby Kennedy Jr. made on his own. Is that what is happening here? And is he is this is this becoming a West Wing project to try to minimize the damage Bobby Kennedy Jr. is doing to them almost on a daily basis in this world?
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
You may have some ideological disagreements on certain ideas that he had out there, but he had a core competency to him. And something that came through during COVID, something that when you talk to a lot of governors, Democrat or Republican that were on those COVID calls, you know, the chaos was Trump's. The planning and getting, you know, getting organized was Pence's.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
But that really kind of I thought you thought I thought it was a Florida connection there.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
We are speaking a little in code not to mess with sourcing, but yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Interesting. Well, that's always one of those. You're like, God, there's so much else going on sometimes that, boy, you'd love to go down that rabbit hole. But is it really worth your time when you've got to deal with day to day? And that actually leads me to sort of. The difficulty, you know, I think as a reporter, there's no better beat than Trump right now because it's so fascinating.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
There's so much going on. However, it's so hard to source up because you don't know how, you know, most of your sources are BSing you, but there's an art to it. And if you can decipher it, you actually can find the truth. But it takes time. Like, I feel like it's studying Trump and, you know, I think I know how to... decipher some of him. But, you know, I think you do a lot more.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
But how do you how do you decide what the truth looks like when you deal with Trump officials?
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
That is very true.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Oh, I had that. I've had that experience a bunch of times. I've never had Trump. Well, you may have talked to somebody who's talked to him since, which is like because so many of these guys have been burned themselves before. So they don't. They're just looking.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
So the point is this, is that we have to stop using anything. This is one of those things where if I could erase everybody's brains of Trump 1.0, don't let it make any impact on you and how you think Trump 2.0 is going to go or is operating. It is more different than it is the same. This is a brand new style of governing.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Yeah, the Walter Bloomberg. I'm Chuck Reuters, by the way. Nice to meet you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Do we now go back and say, hey, Walter Bloomberg was right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
All right. Let me I'm basically asking you to give me the internal temperature check on certain individuals here. We've been doing Howard Lutnick. We did Bobby Kennedy Jr. So let me ask you about Elon Musk.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Remember, Musk is standing right now.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Well, it's interesting. There were certainly a lot of congressional Republicans. I certainly talked to a couple of them who were rooting for the Democrats to do really well in that Wisconsin Supreme Court race if the fallout was minimizing and distancing themselves from Musk.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Something else will happen and it will get crazier. But I do think trying to understand the most important thing on the on the Trump tariff pullback, right, that we all know he blinked.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
So they created... So they were setting up the explanation for the loss.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
She was that was the one thing she tried to minimize was staff on staff crime.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Yeah. Yeah. Let me ask you, Marco Rubio, rising, falling, staying the same.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
So he's Secretary of State. It's usually, you know, it is the it is the cabinet post, the first cabinet post that becomes president, by the way.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
This is, yes, he tested the electric fences in the first term and found out where vulnerabilities were and where they weren't. But it is not lost on me that there's essentially two holdovers from his first term. Stephen Miller. who is clearly now the keeper of the grievance list as they come up with plans to go get people.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Is that Laura? Is that Laura Loomer and her oppo research team? Yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Well, I've heard another name that is toxic inside NSA. That is, if you have any ties to Tom Cotton.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
I have to tell you that, again, is some border... That's I thought the Constitution applied to anybody in the United States. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, that's going to be that's an interesting this is this idea that, hey, we're going to monitor the social media feeds.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
I mean, it's like this is big brother shit. I mean, this is. Yeah, I'm I don't I don't think this is going to pass muster in court, but maybe they don't care. I don't know. In some ways, losing in court, they think is good PR.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
That could be wrong. Well, it just depends on your definition of... I mean, you know, just that's thought... Anyway, borderline thought police stuff.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Very thought police. And that's the key. I don't think it's... I just don't think it's constitutional.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
It all comes back to Miami. It does. It just, you know, to see him do stuff like this. I know there's a version of Marco Rubio that criticized the Cuban government for doing stuff like this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
The chilling effect of launching these investigations against anybody that was essentially a whistleblower in his first term, Chris Krebs, who was in the cybersecurity space for the federal government, who was the first Trump-appointed official to say this election was on the up and up.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
OK. Like that's that's what makes it so alarming to me because he's executing orders that he would have criticized another country, particularly that country, Cuba, from doing that. Not to not to bring it all back to Miami, but there's that last one. And then I'll let you go because it's Florida and I care about Florida politics. Oh, yeah. Byron Donald. Oh, yeah.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
This thing is turning into a juggernaut.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
I was with a longtime veteran of Florida Republican politics about a week or so ago, and he goes, hey, it's really funny the way Ron DeSantis thinks he's governor still.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
He goes, he can't get any. Well, look, you rode the tiger, and he thought he won. And he wound up inside it. And he didn't. That's right. It is what it is. Mark Caputo. I hope you are a regular unofficial cast member. I would love to be. Making lots of cameos on the Chuck Todd cast. That would be great. Like I said, nobody understands the Game of Thrones that is Trump world like you.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
No, there is. There is. But you're my favorite narrator.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
I'll take it. Thank you. All right. Yeah. The George R.R. Martin of this generation for this administration. See you, my friend. See you, my friend. All right, that's it for this edition of the Chuck Toddcast. I'm going to keep this a bit short. I got a Seder to prepare for. I love Passover, Jewish Thanksgiving. It's my second favorite holiday after American Thanksgiving.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
So for those of you that celebrate that, I hope you have a nice Seder. If you're not Jewish and you have been invited to a Seder, go. It's... Most satyrs are entertaining, a lot of fun, and you might accidentally learn something, too, when you're that. But if you ever get invited to one, you should take the invite up. It's an interesting thing to observe and participate in.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
So with that, for those of you that celebrate that holiday, and I know we're preparing for many of the Christian holidays coming up at the end of next week with Good Friday and Easter. So with that, I hope you travel safely if you're traveling. Enjoy time with your family. And I will see you on all of these channels again soon until we upload again.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
We're gonna discuss this, and I discuss this with Mark Caputo in a minute, but I do think that you gotta see what this is for. The chilling effect that this administration, and it's more orchestrated by Stephen Miller than it is Trump. One thing about Trump is that he has plenty of grievances, but he's usually a bit too lazy to execute revenge fantasy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
He has revenge fantasies, but actually to execute the revenges. But Stephen Miller has the patience and the bandwidth to do all these things. And these lawsuits, these investigations, sending FBI agents to Chris Krebs' house and to Miles Taylor's house. Yes, it's about rattling them. And it's a little bit about revenge.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
But it's also about sending a message to anybody in the current administration. If you're going to speak out, you might make the list and be careful. It's why you sit here.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
I saw there's a few lawmakers that would like to see an investigation to see if there was any insider trading, if Donald Trump was trying to give investors a heads up or different people when he made his, what seemed like a vague tweet about this is a good time to buy. Did he already know? Was he already giving insider trading?
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Hello there. Happy Friday here at the Chuck Todd cast. This is a bit of a bonus episode. I don't always not always going to drop four in a week, but this has been one of those weeks. And I know in the Trump era, there's always one of those weeks. And that's always a word of warning sometimes. Right. Just when you think, oh, my God, can it get any crazier?
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Do you expect, do we think that the current iteration of the SEC is going to investigate? I mean, I would argue that there's a lot of shenanigans that take place. Now, part of the difficulty with trying to figure out is, is Donald Trump doing insider information or is he just simply being Donald Trump overly telegraphing every move he makes, right?
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
I think it's important to figure out how he got there, because understanding how he got there will then tell us, I think, give us at least a better idea of how to be prepared for what is still going to be an uncertain economic climate for at least the next three months, probably
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
He is also somebody who happens to overly telegraph everything he does. And there's, you know, when you, if you know, and I'm sure there are people that simply speak Trumpism and just used his Twitter feed or his X feed or his Truth Social feed, whatever we're promoting these days, as the guidepost to this.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
So, look, I don't think you're going to get investigations and you're not going to get many whistleblowers because I think Donald Trump has come to the conclusion that That whistleblowers and internal watchdogs were some of the biggest sources of his political problems in his first term. And he wants to eliminate as much of that friction as you can.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
But ultimately, the reason I'm dropping this special pod is because I think Marco Puto is going to be able to paint a picture for you and to understand why. Who's you know, who's on the end? Who's who's got his ear in the moment? Who doesn't have his ear in the moment? Right. Who got benched in this? I'm looking at you, Peter Navarro. What is the status of Howard Lutnick? Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
Does he have a sell by date? Well, everybody in Trump world is sell by date. We just don't always know what date what dates on the milk carton. But is it sooner or is it later? All these things you're going to learn in this interview. But I do think it's helpful to understand. We're all trying to figure out what guardrails were working with him.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
And there was a moment where it didn't look like there was going to be any guardrails on these tariffs, but it turns out there is. Is it rich people calling him and they all have his cell phone number? Is it them that did it? Is it the bond market that did it? Is it members of Congress? Whatever it was, the combination of all of it did serve as a temporary guardrail here on at least...
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
pulling back on the most catastrophic parts of this tariff policy. We're not out of the woods. And by no means is this a healthy economy right now. And I'll be honest with you, I don't see how this gets better for him. I don't see how in this moment he's going to be talking companies into... putting shovels into the ground and building factories in this uncertain business climate.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
So how does he incentivize that for this tariff policy idea to work? And I'm skeptical it's going to work because, again, I equate it to trying to rescue the ice block industry. Refrigeration is what works now. We don't use blocks of ice. You're not going to stop the global economy.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
You can't just somehow stop it in its tracks, rebuild it somewhere else without having massive, massive catastrophic collateral damage.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
possibly if it's as if it's as tumultuous as it still looks, we're looking at, you know, what's going to be just a tumultuous 18 months until the voters decide if they want to have a say here on the direction of our economy. But the fact of the matter is, while while Trump sort of stopped what was turning into
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
And I'll tell you one other thing that I want to leave you with that the tariffs are already leading to is that there's already been some business surveys out there that I've gotten my hands on that there is already an uptick in anti-Americanism and it's going to impact companies that are associated with America.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
So already I know some Fortune 500 companies who have gotten some data where they're being told, hey, be prepared for this. If you sell products in Europe, if you sell products in the free parts of Asia, don't be surprised if you see some, you know, form some boycotts, things like this, because there's a lot of anger at America right now over these tariffs.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
And that's the thing that I think is is being undersold to this. You He may believe this is going to help Americans, but if it ends up incentivizing American hate around the world and American hate of our companies and our economy, that doesn't lead to good outcomes for the long-term security of the United States.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
So on that uplifting note, on this Friday, particularly this Friday before Passover, I'm going to sneak in a break here. And when you come back, my buddy from Miami, one of the most plugged in reporters that understands how this Trump White House currently works and who's closest to the Game of Thrones, who's the hand to the king these days? It is Mr. Mark Caputo.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
So joining me now is the person who I think has the best pulse on the Trump White House. It's not an easy thing. And we're going to discuss how do you know when to take a Trump source at their word, which is one of the great sort of.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
enigmas uh trying to uh that that that washington produces these days but mark caputo of axios um the beat writer uh for trump i guess you're what's your official title for axios let me get it right what white house trump white house reporter uh national political reporter some sort of yeah you are Just to give a little bit of your credentials for those that don't realize it.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
One of the reasons you're on this beat, you're sort of the king of Florida reporting. I've known for so long political reporting. And the Trump White House is now basically produced by Florida power brokers. Donald Trump became a Floridian of sorts and became the Florida power broker.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
But you are the first sort of beat writer not based in Washington for the White House. You are actually based in Miami. You come up a lot. Don't get me wrong. You were kind enough to speak to my USC class a couple of weeks ago. And that was very fascinating. But here you are. And I guess.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
The number one question I have after the gyrations of the week with trade and tariff is we know Donald Trump never makes a mistake. So the question is, who takes the fall? It appears Peter Navarro has been benched for a while. Now, we know you can be benched. That doesn't mean you're ostracized. There's a difference. There's ostracizing. There's benching.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
And then there's still in the inner circle. Yeah. Howard Lutnick is the first person I want to ask about, because if the next after Navarro, he is the person seen as the architect of this disaster. Who's the who's getting blamed here?
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
the beginnings of a Republican revolt on this and certainly a major donor revolt on his policies. He has staved that off. But it's not as if he can go back and slapdash this on and hope that he's you know, that the same thing won't happen again. So my guest today is Mark Caputo.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
There only can be one. But that's the thing. Like, it is always funny to me to watch Republican members of Congress. Who is giving him this bad advice? Who is telling him to do these things? And you're like, wow, you know, you know, it can't be dear leader. We know this. So who's the bad whisperer here? Right. Like, so Donald Trump has wanted to do that.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
I take that. And I but I tell you what reeked of desperation of him when he wanted to let everybody know he was in the White House at the moment giving that tweet out. And that told me he clearly wanted to send the message. I'm not on the outs. I've not been I'm not I'm not getting blamed here. I'm sitting with your leader. Right. And it was like it really was sort of a proof of life. Right.
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
The way he worded that tweet. So it told me he certainly was worried he was going to get scapegoated. How's that?
The Chuck ToddCast
Who Takes The Fall For Tariff Disaster? + Trump’s Enemies List
By the way, the high end real estate market in D.C., my goodness, between Mark Zuckerberg, Howard Lutnick. I mean, the first administration, it was really just Wilbur Ross that that truly planted some expensive stakes into this business. Boy, this is a another level that does feel as if a lot of people feel the need that to to get close to dear leader. You've got to you've got to live.