Chuck begins with house Republicans struggling to pass their “Big Beautiful Bill” and reflecting on the president’s ability to influence the culture versus imposing on the culture.Then, Chuck welcomes Spencer Kornhaber, staff writer at The Atlantic to discuss his piece on contemporary pop culture and its perceived decline in quality. They dive into the impact of streaming algorithms impacting music discovery, revealing that old music now earns three times the streams of new releases as algorithms trigger nostalgia rather than innovation. The conversation explores how the music industry has lost its traditional gatekeepers, leading to a landscape where new music often sounds "rehashed and doesn't move the ball forward," while examining whether rock music has stopped evolving and how country music is experiencing a resurgence. They also tackle the growing influence of AI on music production and debate whether algorithms, despite their flaws, are actually helping people discover music in different languages and cultures.The discussion expands to examine whether television represents the one area where pop culture is genuinely "better than ever," with prestige TV becoming the cultural center and episodic storytelling reshaping moviemaking. They explore the "Barbenheimer summer" phenomenon as evidence that theatrical experiences still matter, before diving into literature's current state amid declining readership among younger generations. They debate whether high-resolution photography and AI are diminishing visual arts, speculate about experiences becoming the next major art form for Gen Z, and examine how competition with AI might actually make human artists more innovative. They conclude by discussing the enduring popularity of live elements in sports and music—with Bad Bunny and Taylor Swift reigning as pop royalty—while questioning who truly rules Hollywood and acknowledging the surprising innovations happening in live theater.Finally he addresses listeners’ questions in the Ask Chuck segment, weighing in on Europe’s race to rearm itself, his preferred voting method to incentivize legislative compromise and whether the questions surrounding Joe Biden’s decline will loom over the 2028 presidential race.Timeline:00:00 Introduction00:30 Republicans struggling to pass the “Big Beautiful Bill”02:00 Partisan governance is bad governance03:30 The bill will pass, it’s just a matter of when05:45 We’re in a “culture cold war”08:00 Should political leaders impose culture, or influence it?09:45 Who we elect as president is reflective of the culture11:45 If a president imposes on culture, they impose on speech14:45 The public will want a president who doesn’t impose on culture17:40 Spencer Kornhaber joins the Chuck ToddCast 18:40 What inspired his piece on current pop culture being terrible? 22:25 Algorithms are terrible at introducing new music 23:10 Old music earns 3x the streams of new music 24:40 Algorithms use music to trigger nostalgia 26:10 New music sounds rehashed and doesn't move the ball forward 28:10 The music industry lost its gatekeepers 29:55 Algorithms help people discover music in a different language 32:10 Has rock music stopped evolving? 33:20 Country music is having a resurgence 34:00 The impact of AI on music production 35:40 Is television the one area of pop culture that's better than ever? 36:55 Prestige TV has become the center of the culture 38:25 How has episodic tv impacted moviemaking? 40:40 "Barbenheimer summer" wasn't a fluke 42:40 Are we also in a golden age of literature? 45:25 Younger generations are reading less 46:10 Do high resolution pictures + AI diminish the visual arts? 48:55 Will experiences become the next big artform for Gen Z 50:25 How well will his piece age? 51:55 Will competition with AI make human artists more innovative? 54:25 Will society decide to reinvest in the arts? 55:25 Gaming and sports are more popular than ever 57:10 Is the live element of sports and music driving popularity? 58:10 Bad Bunny and Taylor Swift are the king and queen of pop 59:10 Who rules Hollywood? 1:02:25 We've seen major innovation in live theater1:04:45 Chuck's thoughts on the interview with Spencer Kornhaber 1:05:00 Algorithms suck at making culture, humans are good at it 1:05:15 Ask Chuck - Should we be concerned about Europe rearming? 1:07:55 What is your preferred voting method to incentivize compromise? 1:13:45 Will the Biden cognitive question loom over the 2028 election?
Chapter 1: What are the current challenges facing House Republicans?
Und die Zeit und das Geld, das ich dadurch spare, kann ich anderweitig investieren. Vor allem in Wachstum.
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Hello there. Happy Thursday to you. Chuck Todd here with another episode of the Chuck Toddcast. Thank you for watching on YouTube. If you're watching on YouTube, be sure you've subscribed, liked and subscribed. We like those things. Appreciate you, those that are listening on the original.
way that many people listen to podcasts good old-fashioned audio on your phones in your cars wherever you're listening to this much appreciated we are uh taping just before this is we are in the run-up to memorial day weekend and let me give you a little bit of hint about memorial day weekend in washington particularly in the odd numbered years um so we're in the middle of this mess right now right house republicans they set an artificial deadline
which they may miss. Mike Johnson wanted to get the one big beautiful bill, basically Trump's agenda bill. At this point, we're governing in this horrendous process now. One party gets control of everything for a couple of years. So they're like, let's make the kitchen sink bill. It was what Build Back Better was what Joe Biden's kitchen sink bill was called.
This one kitchen sink bill is one big beautiful bill. It's officially called this, right? But it's really the partisan kitchen sink bill. And what have we learned about partisan kitchen sink bills? They will eventually pass. It just depends on how much crap you have to put in or take out in order to get it to pass.
There used to be a great saying in Washington, if you can't get a bill in Congress passed, make it bigger. Meaning, because back in the days when everybody was transactional, not just in partisan transactional natures, but literally across the aisle, you could buy votes anytime you wanted. All right, let's build this in that district. We'll get his vote. Let's do this over here.
He needs my vote for his bill. I'll give him that if he gives me mine. That old-fashioned way of making a congressional bill was the way it worked when there was bipartisanship. If you couldn't get a bill passed, make it bigger. But ever since we went to this partisan governance, it basically started with the Clinton era. Right.
Clinton had a little bit of Republican support every now and then early on, but he was mostly having to do his first two years. He had full Democratic control. It was partisan. George W. Bush, same thing. He had a 50-50 Senate, so he didn't have to work with a couple of Democrats every now and then. Barack Obama went it alone. Trump's gone it alone. This is the second time he's done it.
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Chapter 2: How do algorithms affect music discovery?
Maybe they've got a new album they're going to download. Maybe there's a new TV series or some movies they're going to be. Well, my guest is Spencer Kornhaber, and he wrote this terrific piece in The Atlantic. Basically, it's frankly something that's written about every 10 years. Why does pop culture suck? Some form of that conversation. It's worse than ever, right?
And it's one of those things where, and you'll hear this in the conversation that Spencer and I have, where We always miss the good old days of something. Maybe it's the good old days of radio. You'll hear me whine about music. I hate what algorithms have done to new music and you'll hear me go off on that.
But there's another part of culture that I think is that we're in the middle of real culture wars. We've been in a sort of Culture Cold War between the two parties now for most of the 21st century, right? Steve Bannon is fond of saying that politics is downstream from culture. The fact is, it is all sort of mixed, right?
You know, if you think about it, our presidents ever since the television age or really the radio age with FDR, our presidents have become cultural figures. Some want to be in cultural figures and some do not. But that doesn't mean they all don't become one. Eisenhower schlägt mich als jemand, der sich nicht wohl fühlt, Teil der Kultur zu sein. Aber John Kennedy, glaube ich, liebte es.
Richard Nixon liebte es, auch wenn er nicht liebte, wie die Kultur ihn behandelt hat, wenn man will. Aber er ist ein Typ, der auf Lachen ging, was am Sonntagabend live war, bevor es am Sonntagabend live war. Und natürlich kam Ronald Reagan aus Hollywood in die Politik. Also, schau, der Fakt ist, Kultur und Politik haben sich verbunden.
And I've been thinking about this and there's a part of me, I'm like, You know, I can be a curmudgeon on some of this stuff when I hear a celebrity or an athlete pop off about a politician, whether left or right. And I just sort of roll my eyes. Oh, God, you know. And then I then I remind myself, well, I do this about sports and I wonder how many sports guys roll their eyes.
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Chapter 3: Has nostalgia taken over music streaming?
People like Chuck Todd pop off about sports and they think they know what they're doing. Or Richard Nixon wants to write a play for the Washington football team back in the day. So I at the end of the day, we're all citizens and we're all we all sort of have earned the right to pop off. OK, the question is, what is the role that political leaders? What's what's a proper role at the end of the day?
You know, a democracy. It's infused in the culture, right? This is sort of freedom of speech, right? So in many ways, our political rules were responsive to culture. So they are intertwined. There's no debate about whether they should be or not. It is, okay? The question is, What should political leaders do? Impose culture or simply influence culture?
Are they there to celebrate the culture or attack the culture of the moment? Now, Donald Trump is aggressive on this, right? He doesn't just want to influence culture, right? He wants a certain type of... He's got a vision in his own head of what he wants Kennedy Senator to be, right? He wants that to be a show, the American showcase for what he believes is great American culture.
And like most people age 78, 79 or 80 years old, they think peak culture was sometime between Dean Martin. And maybe I'll give them Bono. Right. But that that is culture. Basically, 1955 to 1985, that 30 years, that's peak culture. Right.
That's, you know, Les Mis that came out that when you start to think, right, this is and it's simply, you know, we I think it's human nature when it comes to what we think is peak culture is when. is when the culture is appealing to us, right?
And when we're in the ages of somewhere between, say, 10 and 40, that 30-year period, that's when most of pop culture is actually trying to appeal to you, right? And it's in that 30-year period, there's sort of the pre-teen culture, teen culture, college culture, you see where I'm going. And then all of a sudden, after 40, it's all nostalgia. Okay, everything becomes a derivative of nostalgia.
I'm not saying people over 40 aren't interested in new things, but for the most part, the view of culture, I think, in the human brain becomes more nostalgic after a certain age. Let's be honest, what is our comfort level? I find myself somewhere in the middle here.
I think it's perfectly appropriate and it's going to happen that who we elect as president is usually somewhat reflective of where the culture is at the moment. Right. You know, it's not lost on me that modern family, the election of Obama all sort of happened at the same time. Right. Modern family was sort of peak culture.
You go back and you think about the culture of 80s TV and it was the height of sort of family TV, Family Ties, The Cosby Show. 8 is enough, that felt like it fits the Reagan-era culture. You throw in a Dallas and a dynasty, right? And that was that version of the darker version of culture, right? You could say, you know, the up to be a modern family breaking bad, right?
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Chapter 4: Is television better than ever in pop culture?
Bad ideas that they criticize the left the left for doing. But Donald Trump certainly is trying. You know, he he his presence. He's not I don't think he is somebody that is. trying to just influence culture, he wants to impose it. And I think that's the line, right? There's a fine line between freedom of speech and imposing culture.
And if you're imposing culture, you're essentially imposing on speech. And I think that's the line he's continuing to draw. Look, if he doesn't like what Bruce Springsteen has to say, so what? You know, ask Richard Nixon. There are many, you know, many musicians back in the late 60s and early 70s were no Nixon fan. And certainly he didn't, he complained about it on his tapes.
He didn't go out in public and complain about it as much. In fact, just the opposite. He was always trying to soften music. His image, right? The dude, the walk-on with Laugh-In, or you look at the picture, you know, hanging out with Elvis Presley. He, of course, loved to hang out with Sammy Davis. But what Trump is doing here with his... He gets angry when celebrities attack him.
And I think part of it is that he believes he's a celebrity and that he's a celebrity before he was a politician, right? And so this is a case where Donald Trump believes, hey, I'm a member of the same club. Why are you attacking... Me, I'm a member of the same club. You shouldn't be doing that type of mindset. But, you know, so there's something has to do with he thinks he's, hey, we're on par.
You know, you should be celebrating me and etc. So he's doing that. But at the end of the day, he just sort of is looking backwards. Look, I like my presidents using the White House to celebrate new artists. I like my presidents in the White House to try to lift up maybe certain parts of the culture that weren't getting enough attention.
I remember it was Jimmy Carter that got me to listen to Charlie Daniels for the first time. He loved The Devil Went Down to Georgia, that song. And of course, it... Charlie Daniels wurde ein bisschen politisch gewalttätig für einige Leute vor einer Dekade oder so. Aber es war auch eine Art von Musik, die ich nicht gehört habe. Und Jimmy Carter hat es aufgeführt.
Es gibt also eine feine Linie, die ich glaube, ist perfekt geeignet. Ich glaube, das ist das Wichtigste. is when politics gets so infused with some sector of the culture, whether it's a point in athletics, right? The NFL felt that the hard way at one point, whether it is music, whether it is the Oscars, whether it is the Emmys. And so it's certainly a fine line, but I do think that
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Chapter 5: What is the state of literature among younger generations?
Das hier ist mein, hier ist mein Überblick, worauf wir uns bewegen, worauf wir uns als Land bewegen. Wir sind nicht, du weißt, Trump hat sich intensiv in den Kennedy-Center und all diesem Geschäft eingestellt. We're going to end up wanting a president who wants nothing to do with the culture, right? I think we're going to be looking for a Dwight Eisenhower type.
We're going to be looking for a Gerald Ford type. They do no harm. Frankly, a younger version of what people thought they were getting from Joe Biden, right? Joe Biden was, you know, the... He was supposed to be Gerald Ford or Dwight Eisenhower. He chose to be something else or he was surrounded by aides who saw something bigger that wasn't there.
He didn't meet the moment because he apparently didn't realize why he was elected in the first place. And this happens to many a president. Some understand why they were elected and some have a bigger theory of the case. But as you listen, look, by the way, if you don't like the fact that I've had a political cultural conversation, well, I don't know why you're subscribing to me, number one.
But number two, fear not. The conversation I have with Spencer Kornheber, we talk about movies, we're actually limiting the amount of politics. But I will say this.
Chapter 6: How is AI influencing the arts?
I noticed that there's been more, and I'm glad to see it, that one of the permission slips that I do think that Trump's election has given to Hollywood writers is that if you just watch this season of White Lotus or you watch this season of The Studio, and I promise you, there are episodes in both of those, there are parts of both episodes, that that conversation would not have been, that would not have appeared on any episode of any show
from 2015 through 2020 and maybe from 2015 through 2022. But as the acknowledgement that, hey, half the country is in one place and if you're in the business of making TV shows or movies, you'd like to open the aperture so that everybody feels comfortable watching your show. And so I will tell you, I am glad when I can't
immediately know oh the writers are trying to make this political statement there's nothing I enjoy more than when there's a zag in one of the TV shows I'm watching that is literally a zag and is meant to sort of Vertue signal that, hey, we're not trying to be one-sided politically. We're trying to open our doors to all sides of the conversation. All right.
I'll shut my trap on this topic for now. When we come back, a fascinating conversation about how crappy is today's pop culture? I would argue not as crappy as we all think it is. Spencer Kornhaber, next.
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Und die Zeit und das Geld, das ich dadurch spare, kann ich anderweitig investieren. Vor allem in Wachstum.
Well, joining me now is Spencer Kornhaber. And if you've spent five minutes on the Internet, you've probably seen a reference to Spencer's piece about culture and about in the Atlantic that he essentially may read the title of the piece. The title of the piece being Is this the worst ever era of American pop culture? And Spencer, we were just talking before we started recording about how
The beauty of your piece is how much it has sparked a lot of other people to write about it or talk about it or say it. And in fact, you will love this. My daughter just got home from college, like when I say got home, like an hour ago. And I'm like, yeah, I'm going to, you know, tape this interview. And she goes, what are you doing?
And I show her and she goes, are you going to be trashing Taylor Swift? Das war wie ihre erste Frage. Das ist eine gute Kultur. Und ich bin so, naja, ich weiß es noch nicht. Wir werden darüber sprechen. Aber fangen wir an mit Warum hast du entschieden, dieses Buch zu schreiben? Und ich frage, weil... Und das ist ein Stück, das immer mit Verlust verbunden ist.
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Chapter 7: What innovations are happening in live theater?
Mein Vater arbeitete in der Rekordindustrie, also ich wuchs mit all diesen Vinyl-Rekorden immer. Und er liebte beide. Er war ein Anfangs-Rocker, er war ein Boomer, aber er liebte auch Mozart. Es war mehr Mozart als Beethoven. Also ich habe eine eklatische Musik. I also growing up in the 80s, you know, you know, I literally go from Led Zeppelin to Public Enemy. Right.
Which is what a lot of my friends did. Right. We were the transition. And that was what we thought was cool. I certainly had a clash phase, you know, so just like sort of any kid of the 80s. I bring this up because. I'm a new music snob. I miss the days in the early 90s, you'd go to listening stations. And I was the guy, if I found one song on an album I liked, I bought the whole album.
I'm like, I'm giving that artist a chance. I believed in the entire idea of, hey, they have something to say, let me listen to the whole thing. And my frustration with music today, I have... will confess, I have the luxury to do this, but I have six different music streaming services that I use, because Ich hatte es alles auf Apple und ich bekomme nie etwas Neues von Klassikern.
Klar, Klassikermusik ist nie neu, aber es gibt neue Interpretationen, neue Rekordungen, was auch immer, weil es nicht in meiner Bibliothek groß genug ist, um den Algorithmus zu triggeren. Oder ich habe viel zu viel 70er und 80er Rock und ich bekomme immer alles neue Musik. Es ist immer etwas an dem. Also habe ich es literally geschaffen.
Okay, das ist mein Klassikermusik, das ist mein Hip-Hop, das ist mein Klassikerock, etc. Ich schaue es an und denke mir, dass es die Algorithmen sind, die die Fähigkeit haben, neue Musik aufzulösen. Das ist das, was ich erlebt habe. Beschreibe ich etwas, das dir bekannt ist?
Absolut. Eine der schockierendsten Statistiken über Musik in diesen Tagen ist, dass 75% der Musik, die jedes Jahr streamt, alte Musik ist. Musik, die älter als 18 Monate alt ist. Also ist nur 25% von dem, was im Moment streamt, neu. Und diese Zahlen werden jedes Jahr immer schlimmer. Das neue Stück des Teppiches wird kleiner und kleiner. Und ich denke, das ändert viele Dinge.
Es kommt aus den Forcen von Algorithmen, wo es die einfachste Art ist, zu prädikieren, was jemand morgen hören will, ist, zu studieren, was sie gestern gehört haben. Und das war die Marketing-Logik für, weißt du, time eternal.
Weißt du, du kannst dich zurückdenken zu dem Stereotyp von einem Rekord-Label-Boss in den 70ern, der einem Rockband erzählt, einen neuen Hits zu machen, der wie ihr letzter Hits klingt, richtig? Diese Druckungen und diese Forcen sind die Tischplätze für Art und Kapitalismus zu machen, könnte man sagen.
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Chapter 8: What are Chuck's thoughts on the cultural impact of political leaders?
Aber die Algorithmuskultur gibt uns so viel, Algorithmen geben uns so viel Daten und sind einfach so, sind so, du weißt, so spezifisch darüber, um dir etwas zu servieren, das dich vielleicht nicht aktiv engagiert, aber passiv engagiert. Du wirst nicht den Namen des Künstlers nennen, aber du wirst nicht auf Skippen klicken.
Und das ermöglicht eine gläubigere, passivere und mehr recycelte oder regressive Kultur. Nein, es macht es.
Weißt du, eine andere Art, wie ich es immer gedacht habe, du weißt, TV-Ads und natürlich sehen wenige Menschen TV-Ads, aber du kannst immer sagen, what demographic they're targeting by the music that they licensed in the background. Because it's always, to me, they're always targeting somebody who listened to that music when they were a teenager, right?
So, you know, it's like meeting, you know, so you could always sort of see, oh, they're targeting, you know, Boomers. That's why they're using the Beatles. Or they're targeting... Gen X, das ist der Grund, warum sie Guns and Roses benutzen, oder sie targetieren Millennials, das ist der Grund, warum man Nirvana hört.
Ich weiß nicht, ob Nirvana ein Millenial ist oder nicht, wir können darüber diskutieren. Aber du hast meinen Punkt hier, richtig? Du siehst es manchmal in dem, und das ist jetzt so, wie ich fühle, dass diese Algorithmen funktionieren, fast in der gleichen Weise, wie Fahrerfirmen Musik benutzen, um uns zu ermutigen, Nostalgie zu erzeugen, um Verkäufe zu machen.
Das ist sicherlich so und das ist sicherlich so, wie es schon lange gemacht wurde. Ich meine, das Interessante an dem, was du sagst, ist, welche Art von Musik würdest du jetzt spielen, um jemanden, der jung ist, für ihre Kindheit nostalgisch zu machen? Wenn man sich über das, was heute populär ist, denkt man an Künstler wie Sabrina Carpenter, Benson Boone. Es gibt viele Musik auf den Charts, die
ist für mich nicht so sonisch mit diesem Moment verbunden. Es klingt wie ein Rehash von Klassikerock oder alten Landmusik. Es ist eine Art Pastiche von all den Jahrhunderten von Rock'n'Roll, die du gerade erwähnt hast. Es kommt zurück und wird vermischt. Und das ist die Art und Weise, wie Musik immer weitergeht. Aber es hat sich nicht immer so viel wie
Und ich denke, es gibt Marktkräfte, die diese Algorithmen nutzen, die Pop-Produzenten und Songwriter ermutigen, zu denken, wie sie Musik machen können, die ein sehr großes Publikum spielen wird, durch die Nostalgie für mehrere Generationen zu triggeren. Und der Effekt davon ist, Pop-Musik zu kreieren, die nicht so viel den Ball nach vorne bewegt, in Bezug auf den Sound.
Let me do a counter on this and what algorithms taught us that perhaps we didn't fully appreciate. So before the algorithm, I would argue the coasts dictated music taste, right? It was either New York or LA. And yes, we could throw in Motown there too. But really, those were the three places. And
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