Chuck Todd speaks with legendary documentary filmmaker Alex Gibney about his newest project The Dark Money Game on HBO and the influence of legalized bribery in American politics.First, Chuck gives his own thoughts on the corrupting influence of money in politics, why Donald Trump’s memecoin is a bribery scheme in plain sight and why money has fueled distrust in politics from both sides of the aisleThen, Chuck and Alex dive into the Ohio scandal at the center of The Dark Money Game, exploring why Americans have grown numb to the Citizens United ruling—and how it effectively legalized bribery in politics. They discuss how money has become a deeply corrosive force in American democracy.Alex shares his process for selecting the story, what he uncovered during his investigation, and why the project ultimately became a two-part series.The conversation also touches on the troubling alliance between organized religion and dark money, the Trump administration’s open embrace of corruption, and, finally, Alex reveals the focus of his next big project: Elon Musk.Finally, Chuck answers a listener question in the Ask Chuck segment!0:00 Introduction1:00 Citizen's United created the dark money era1:45 Reform efforts have failed3:00 Campaigns used to cost millions, not billions5:00 Money has cut voters out of the equation9:00 Trump’s memecoin is a bribery scam in plain sight10:30 We need strong disclosure laws13:00 Public funding of elections is an all or nothing propositionv14:30 Distrust in politics centers on money in the system17:40 Alex Gibney joins the show! 18:40 Dark Money is the best attempt at telling the story of money corrupting politics 19:40 How hard is it to make this story accessible to the public? 20:40 Campaign finance should be rebranded as bribery 21:40 Ohio state legislature captured by special interests 24:10 Why did First Energy execs not end up in prison? 25:25 Huge money ensured GOP candidates in Ohio won, then were beholden 26:40 The bribe was a good investment 28:10 How did Alex access the wiretaps? 28:55 Investigators stumbled into the case 30:55 We've accepted money in politics and are numb to it 31:40 Citizens United opened the floodgates to corruption via PACs 33:40 Bribery is now legal 35:25 We're in a kleptocracy now 35:55 Reed Hoffman donated millions to Harris and wanted Lina Khan fired at FTC 37:40 Big money interests can just buy their own news coverage 40:10 Ohio whistleblower turned in his friend in service to his state 41:10 Florida gambling initiatives bought and sold petition signatures 42:40 Money in politics is like the mob bribing cops 45:10 Candidates don't run on an anti corruption/campaign finance platform 46:40 Billionaires shouldn't get define the world for the rest of us 47:55 Bernie/AOC turning out huge crowds tapping into anger against a rigged system 49:40 Dark money started as one film and became two because there was too much material 50:55 Evangelical grifters became fused with dark money in exchange for political influence 53:55 Corrupt Religious leaders "bless" political corruption to their followers 55:40 Society is driven by, and consumed by money 56:40 Law firms and universities have capitulated to Trump over their financial interests 59:10 Alex's advice for young documentarians 1:00:40 Lobbying is now corporation vs corporation 1:03:25 Elon Musk is Alex's next topic1:04:25 Chuck's thoughts on conversation with Alex Gibney 1:05:25 Ask Chuck - How can voters in states with later primaries feel involved in choosing presidential candidates? 1:06:55 A rotating system for primaries based on region is a potential solution 1:09:55 There are ways to make the system fair, but the people in charge don't want a fair system. 1:12:55 Voters in early states take the process very seriously
Chapter 1: What is the influence of dark money in American politics?
Well, happy Friday and welcome to a special episode of the Chuck Todd cast. So today my guest is frankly, one of probably the, uh, when you think of great, uh, documentarians of our times, I think there's really two that stand out. There's Ken Burns and his documentaries on American history. And there's Alex Gipney who has done some, uh, just groundbreaking work on society and culture.
Chapter 2: How has Citizens United affected political funding?
And he is out with, uh, frankly two feature-length documentaries almost episodic but they're both two-hour documentaries on hbo on dark money um one is a very specific it's sort of it's very much on sort of how dark money this ability to uh take big money in politics, launder it through an organization you've never heard of, Ohioans for love or Americans that love America.
And thanks to Citizens United, and you're going to hear a lot about this, the ability to spend big money on politics, move big money and do so more anonymously than ever has never been easier. And I'll be honest, I'm somebody who's been a bit of a skeptic of attempts to try to reform and get money out of the system. You know, you know, I'm one of those.
I sort of bow at the altar of Jeff Goldblum's character in Jurassic Park when the old man is trying to tell you that he can keep keep those dinosaurs from breeding because he made them all female and everything. And Goldblum is playing the mathematician, the chaos theory guy says life finds a way. Well, I've always felt that about money in politics, right? Money finds a way.
And in fact, some of the great reform efforts of our time have actually created the disastrous situation that we're in today. McCain-Feingold, McCain-Feingold is thought of as this. great reform that attempted to take big money out of political parties and out of the system. But what all McCain-Feingold ended up doing is moving the money out of the political parties.
At the time, one of the few places where there was accountability, where they had to file, they had to disclose who their donors were, maybe not in as timely of a fashion as people wanted to see, but they could do it. And yes, there was something called soft money, but these people, you still had to report where this money came from.
And so here was this incredible – this legislation that was monumental at the time, and all it did was sort of shift the money out of political committees and out of the politicians' hands and into these third-party groups. Right. Now we call them super PACs. But there was different sort of tax code versions of this, 501C3s, 504Cs, things like that. And it is taken – it is essentially –
Hidden the money in plain sight. Right. You know, we generally know where this money comes from, but we now don't find out when they do it through third party networks and channels. You don't find out about it until after an election. And so we've gone from an election that if you're ready for this in 2000. where collectively, collectively, Gore and Bush spent – this is just 25 years ago.
Collectively, they spent about $200 million on their campaign. You know, $200 million is what Donald Trump just raised for his inaugural fund, OK? It is – $200 million is a good first quarter for a general election presidential candidacy. We've now got, you know, and you now can legally give, I think, a million dollars to a party individually these days.
And you couldn't do that before, let alone money you can give to a third party group. Your money in your you never have to disclose it or you can do it through a foundation and et cetera. So the point is, is that we really do have a mess on our hands. Alex Gibney will tell you it's Citizens United.
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Chapter 3: What is the Ohio scandal related to dark money?
So obviously, Nader's most famous for unsafe at any speed, the infamous Covey with the seatbelts. And without him, we wouldn't have airbags and seatbelts and all those things. Right. Well, corporations thought, well, hey, if he could do that, we'll start. We'll hire our own lobbyists.
And for the 70s and 80s and 90s, there were sort of citizen lobbying groups and corporate lobbying groups, and they were often on opposing sides. Well, in the last 25 years, things have gotten so perverted. And gamified that there's very few citizen lobbyists anymore or citizen advocacy groups that have six do successful lobbying. There's some don't get me wrong. They still exist.
But now what you really have is big businesses sometimes on opposite sides trying to manipulate government so that. A regulation doesn't hurt their business, but hurts the somebody, you know, one of their competitors. And so now you have armies of lobbyists essentially on opposing sides, nobody worrying about the average voter. The point is, it is look, money has obviously corrupted the system.
I mean, massively. And when you look at what Donald Trump is doing with this meme coin, which is just a blatant bribery scam in plain sight. OK, let's not. It is absolutely that. Right. He puts out an announcement that says, hey, I'm going to have dinner with the top whatever it is of his meme code holder. So what does it do? More people buy the coin so they can get access to the president. Right.
You know, his club at Mar-a-Lago is a legalized bribe. Right. He raised the price after he became president. He doubled the cost of membership at Mar-a-Lago. And what does he do? Basically, people now know they just buy a membership of Mar-a-Lago and they get access to the president and likely the president's aides and likely all the cabinets. This is this is.
This is basically legalized bribery in plain sight, right? And there really is no – other than ethical standards, there's no legal way to stop this. And I'm old enough to remember when a lot of Republicans were outraged when Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton hosted –
fundraiser coffees in the White House where they were essentially giving people access to the White House so they could ask for money later. And there was a lot of people uncomfortable with that. And, you know, boy, I think we all long for the days when that was the scandal when it came to money in politics. And now it's on a whole nother level. And I do think we've become numb, unfortunately.
And this is where I am... I am not – I don't have a great answer on what works. I think I fall into disclosure, disclosure, disclosure and limiting and instant – and the transparency. I'm for the NASCARization of money in politics, meaning I think we should allow unlimited donations to candidates, but we shouldn't be able to have super PACs and third-party groups. Fine.
You want to be a candidate for office? You want to take a billion-dollar check from Elon Musk? The only requirement is that every TV ad you run, you have to say that I'm Joe Schmenke and this ad was paid for by Elon Musk and this person and this person, right? Anybody that gave you, say, over $250,000, you've got to actually name check them all the time. You've got to say who you're paid for.
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Chapter 4: How do lobbying practices impact democracy?
But I think there's certainly the cynicism that's out there, the distrust of politicians and politics, all centers around how important money has become in manipulating the system. And so- I do think the only way you can get – because right now, anytime you try to limit money, limit donations in different ways, one party believes it's going to hurt them more than the other.
And so then you get sort of a – everybody gets into their partisan corners about the issue. Ultimately, I think transparency is one of those things that everybody should be for. I'm old enough to remember when Mitch McConnell, who was a big opponent of McCain-Feingold, his alternative solution was instant disclosure. Right? I think people should run with instant disclosure.
I'm surprised campaign reform advocates today aren't saying, yes, what Mitch McConnell introduced 25 years ago, it's that and then some. But the bottom line is we know we have to do something about this. There aren't a lot of easy answers. Citizens United, you know, if you want to make the argument that corporations also can go into free speech, fine.
But we've got to know you're you're the ones buying this speech. If you want free speech, you shouldn't be able to hide while exercising your free speech. If you want access to to the public debate, you're more than welcome to do it. But you've got to show your face. You've got to disclose that it's your money doing it. Corporation A or Corporation Y. So.
And in fact, I do think that's the least partisan solution that might actually have some effort at least slowing down the growth of influence of money in politics. So that's the Chuck Todd solution there, which is the NASCARization of politics. Where are your donors? If you will show us your donors, put them on your jacket, have to stand by your donors.
You're welcome to as big of a donation as you want, but you've got to let the public know I'm bought and paid for by these people. I promise you, if that's the law, people will want to limit how much they want to be associated with an individual political candidate. or whether that candidate wants to be associated for that kind of price with any individual corporate or billionaire interests.
So with that, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. Again, Alex Gibney, he's been on this beat a long time. And like I said, I've been a cynic myself on what is realistic when it comes to regulating money in politics.
So.
All right, and joining me now is Alex Gibney. Right now he's got two, whether we call it an episodic series or two feature-length documentaries, but The Dark Money Game has debuted this month on HBO with back-to-back reviews. Feature length documentaries essentially on the corruption of money in politics. And you may say, don't roll your eyes at me on this one. Money in politics.
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Chapter 5: What are the consequences of legalized bribery?
Chapter 6: How does dark money shape public perception and trust?
So with that, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. Again, Alex Gibney, he's been on this beat a long time. And like I said, I've been a cynic myself on what is realistic when it comes to regulating money in politics.
So.
All right, and joining me now is Alex Gibney. Right now he's got two, whether we call it an episodic series or two feature-length documentaries, but The Dark Money Game has debuted this month on HBO with back-to-back reviews. Feature length documentaries essentially on the corruption of money in politics. And you may say, don't roll your eyes at me on this one. Money in politics.
Chapter 7: What insights does Alex share about making documentaries?
And trust me, I can get cynical, too, and I get it. But what Alex Gibney does and money's always been a through line for him. But in general, what he does is he he tackles corruption. in many ways, tackles some of the more complicated subjects that we have to deal with in society. And he makes it watchable. He makes it digestible. He makes it accessible.
And let me tell you, I think dark money, which is a story we can't we journalists haven't done a good job telling. We've tried. We haven't made it as compelling to the voter as it should be. I will say this. I think this is the best attempt I've seen yet at trying to get people to understand how corrosive this has become to our political system. Alex Gibney joins me now. Alex, good to see you.
Good to see you, Chuck. I want to start with this larger issue of trying to take the scandalous nature of money in politics right now, which is – I would argue it's been somewhat of a – I don't want to call it a through line in your work because you do a – you can get into a variety of things. But this is not the first time you've tackled money in politics in your various documentaries.
You've tackled it before. This felt like – It's like we always say, no, no, no, no, this is really bad. And yet, no, no, no, no, now it's worse. And the dark money, the 501c4s, the fact that we can hide money now in ways in this post-Citizens United world is really complicated. And you decided, you found, I think, a more compelling way to tell the story.
But just in general, how much of a challenge is it to make this campaign finance issue accessible to the general public?
It's hugely challenging. And I think in part because of what you outlined earlier. In other words, we're all cynical about, oh, sure, there's money in politics. We get it. But we don't really.
There's that great set line from an old senator, Everett Dirksen, a billion here and a billion there. And eventually you get to real money.
Right.
You know, and it feels that way sometimes in campaign finance. Oh, he's got a billionaire super PAC. He's got a billionaire super PAC. And we all just sort of, you know, roll our eyes.
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Chapter 8: How can voters push for campaign finance reform?
Look, you do a good job in the piece of noting, look, you may be featuring a set of Republican corrupt officials here, but this is not as if – and this is the problem, right, is that I'll hear from those that feel guilty about taking dark money. But they'll say, well, we have to be competitive. We can't have one arm tied behind our back against our opponent. And look –
the fact is we can rationalize our way to a kleptocracy if we keep doing it this way, which frankly, I think we're in the early stages of kleptocracy.
If you study this as a- I'm not sure how early we are. I mean, we're full on crony capitalism now. When you have a meme coin that's introduced, you know, right after the presidential election, you know, and cryptocurrency is flowing to the president of the United States, I mean, I think we're there. And I do point out in the film, you know, most of it centers on this Ohio corruption case.
But I do point out in the film that in, for example, in the, you know, in the. I call out the example of Reid Hoffman, who linked in, who gave or or was inclined to give Kamala Harris seven million dollars, but he wanted something in return. He wanted her to fire Lena Kahn at the FTC. Right. So that's where you get to that weird place where, oh, is that a quid pro quo?
Or is he just suggesting that it might be a good idea, you know, for her to fire Lena Kahn? And in exchange, well, let's not call it an exchange. And then surprise, surprise, I give you $7 million.
But let me let me introduce an uncomfortable fact about this scandal. Nobody lost their reelection over it.
Larry Householder was reelected. I mean, but I think that goes to- A jury convicted him, right? And he gets reelected anyway. $60 million bribe. He's president of the United States, okay? And he was convicted. He's a felon. So- So, yeah, there's that.
And obviously, we've entered a world where we have such a tribal political system that it is very difficult to persuade people that they should do other than vote for their however they define the tribe to be.
But I also think in Ohio, the problem was compounded by this system of gerrymandering, which resulted in supermajority rule, so that Larry Householder came from a district that was so, so red that there was never going to be somebody who was going to, particularly on short notice, they just... They'd elect, you know, a dead cat before they'd elect a Democrat.
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