The Chuck ToddCast
‘The Diplomat’ Reaction: The Inside Story Of Netflix’s Political Thriller
Wed, 28 May 2025
Chuck Todd opens with two issues he calls “dead rail” issues; issues that voters care about but don’t vote on… campaign finance reform and the national debt. He explains why both parties aren’t incentivized to address either issue, and provides a brief update on the latest developments for the upcoming midterm and presidential elections.Then, he sits down with acclaimed television writer and producer Debora Cahn, the creative force behind both "The West Wing" and Netflix's hit series "The Diplomat." Cahn shares behind-the-scenes insights from her time in Aaron Sorkin's writers' room, revealing how the team worked to make "The West Wing" realistic and even infused elements of musical theater into the show. She discusses the origins and development of "The Diplomat," explaining how her experience working on "Homeland" prepared her for tackling international diplomacy, and how COVID-19 unexpectedly helped with the show's early development process.They delve into how real-world events have shaped "The Diplomat's" narrative, particularly Russia's invasion of Ukraine, which completely changed the show's plot trajectory. Cahn explores the challenges of creating "news adjacent" content in today's rapidly changing political landscape, where she notes that satire feels off-limits for this decade. She also discusses her approach to writing strong but complex female characters, the differences between working with Shonda Rhimes versus Aaron Sorkin, and how she uses storytelling to give voice to government workers. The interview touches on everything from using real UK embassy locations for filming to incorporating recent political events and the casting of Michael McKean in a Biden-inspired role.Finally, he answers listeners’ questions in the Ask Chuck segment, addressing topics like the best path to learning journalism, whether Kamala Harris could lose the California gubernatorial race and how to maximize black voter turnout in the south.Timeline:00:00 Introduction00:30 The “third-rail” issues in American politics that are untouchable01:45 Medicaid is a lifeline for more than just poor people02:20 Dead rail issues are issues that you can ignore and voters don’t care03:10 Voters agree on need for campaign finance reform, but don’t vote on it05:00 Both parties only care about the national debt when they’re out of power07:00 Voters don’t care about campaign finance or the debt until it affects them09:00 The Republicans are more fiscally irresponsible than Democrats10:30 New campaign ad rolls out with purely AI generated people11:30 Senator Jeff Merkeley may step down12:30 Senator Ed Markey may face primary challenge13:00 Rahm Emmanuel attending Iowa event, could it regain 1st primary status?14:30 Debora Cahn joins the Chuck ToddCast! 15:45 How did she create "The Diplomat" and "West Wing"? 17:00 How important was it to make the West Wing realistic? 19:00 How did you infuse musical theater into West Wing? 20:15 What was the writers' room like? 22:30 How long has she been working on The Diplomat? 25:15 How did working on Homeland prepare her for The Diplomat? 28:30 The origin of The Diplomat 30:00 Covid actually HELPED with early development 31:00 Were the characters modeled off real people? 33:45 Using a real embassy for the set 36:30 Has the narrative arc changed from the original vision? 38:45 Russia's invasion of Ukraine changed the show's entire plot 40:45 Using the PM of the UK character to caricature Trump 42:15 Satire is off the table for this decade 43:30 Giving voice to government workers via storytelling 47:00 Has the UK foreshadowed trends in US politics? 48:15 The downside to being "news adjacent"? 49:45 Writing about strong women but making it messy 51:15 Working with Shonda Rhimes vs Aaron Sorkin 53:30 Whose story would she like to tell? 56:00 Traditional journalism vs. influencer culture 56:45 The Newsroom wasn't an accurate portrayal of TV journalism 58:00 What events from the past few months does she want to incorporate? 59:45 Michael McKean is great as the Biden character57:50 Chuck's thoughts on the interview with Debora Cahn 58:20 Ask Chuck 58:40 Is college or an apprenticeship better for learning journalism? 1:02:30 Could Kamala Harris lose in the primary for CA governor? 1:06:05 What can Democrats do to maximize the black vote in the south? 1:11:50 NBA playoffs reaction
Chapter 1: What are the dead rail issues in American politics?
Hello there. Happy Wednesday. It's Chuck Todd. Another episode of the Chuck Todd cast. So as some of you know, I have a new weekly sub stack. It's basically a weekly call. And this week I used... I use that space to talk about two issues that I actually get a lot of questions about that I don't talk a lot about here because, frankly, they're what I call dead rail issues.
And what do I mean by a dead rail issue? Well, as you know, we talk about third rail issues in politics a lot. And what do we mean by a third rail? Well, it goes back to the whole idea of electrified rail and subway systems. It's an issue that you're not supposed to touch or it will literally electrocute you, politically speaking.
So for a long time, the most famous third rail issue was Social Security. You touch it, you die politically. I would argue Medicare has joined that club. And I think after the 2026 midterms, We will say Medicaid is also a part of that, that Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are all now third rail issues. But we'll get a final confirmation on Medicaid after the 2026 midterms.
They're untouchables. They're basically popular across the board. They got 60 to 70 percent acceptance rates with the public. They're seen – if you want to call them entitlements, safety nets, but they're seen as things that – they're no longer nice-to-haves. They're must-haves as far as the public is concerned.
And any serious talk about reform usually ends up with somebody losing an election because reform for many people is code for cutting back, and that is one – And look, on Medicaid, I think the reason why this has become such a popular issues, you know, when it first came about, it was thought of as just welfare for the poor, that this was was health care for poor people.
Medicaid is a lifeline for a lot of people now. At the end of life, you've run out of money. There's Medicaid. You're you're you're. You're in the middle-aged brackets, if you will, in your 50s. You've got kids in college. You've got parents that are aging. You can't afford to support them all, and so Medicaid is an important safety net for a lot of people.
I think that's why Medicaid itself is going to be considered a third rail. But what about the opposite of third rail issues? I'm going to call these issues. These are issues you can ignore, abuse or exploit even and suffer no political consequences. It's issues that voters barely notice unless you ask them about it. and they end up eventually shrugging them off. I call these dead rails.
You can touch it all you want. You can sleep on that rail and nothing's gonna buzz you. So I'm gonna talk about two of them. And there are two issues that actually should be urgent priorities. There are two issues I get a lot of questions about, one from one side of the aisle and one from the other. But I would argue they have bipartisan blame written all over them.
One is mostly championed by the left, one mostly by the right. And both are really about right and wrong, not left and right. But both are stuck in a permanent cycle of neglect. I'm talking about campaign finance reform and the debt or fiscal responsibility. So let's start with campaign finance reform. When I first started in this business, a big conversation was all about soft money and
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Chapter 2: How did Debora Cahn create 'The Diplomat' and 'The West Wing'?
Republicans, for example, only worry about the debt when a Democrat is president. Democrats rediscover deficit hawkery the moment Republicans propose a tax cut. I mean, just look at the last few decades. Clinton raised taxes to bring the deficit down. He was told the markets would reward him, and they did. We had pretty good prosperity. And yet that blueprint has never been followed again.
We had balanced budgets for a few cycles, a few two-year cycles in a row. We actually even paid down the debt a little bit. By the way, deficit and debt. Deficit is the annual budget when we don't meet our budget targets and when we have to borrow on the credit card. That's the deficit.
The debt is the accumulation of those annual deficits, if you're trying to understand the difference between the two. But the Bush years came after Clinton. We had tax cuts, two wars, and a brand new Medicare entitlement. Remember Part D, prescription drugs? All of that on a credit card. The debt exploded. Obama comes in during a recession. Stimulus spending. Had to, right? Bailouts.
Republicans cry foul, but where were they a decade before? Trump takes office during an economic expansion and passes another massive tax cut, unpaid for. The debt grows again. No one blinks. Biden inherits pandemic spending, also growing the debt, adds trillions more in new programs, also growing the debt, and every turn the debt only grows.
And politicians only seem to care about it when they're not the ones holding the checkbook. But here's the dirtiest secret in Washington. Most of the money that gets spent in politics is spent to get more money out of government, either via a loophole or a subsidy. So think about that. Nobody donates millions to a super PAC because they want government to shrink.
They want tax breaks or they want a subsidy or they want a contract or they want to carve out. Whether it's direct spending or indirect giveaways, the goal is the same. Return on investment. Those donations are not just out of the goodness of their heart. And that's where these two dead rails meet. And maybe these dead rails can produce a little bit of voter electricity.
Campaign finance corruption fuels bad fiscal policy. Big money shapes big bills. And neither party is serious about fixing either problem. So why doesn't this resonate with voters? Well, there's a reason. It's invisible until it isn't. The debt doesn't hurt until interest rates spike and you can't afford a home.
Corruption doesn't sting until you see how a bill got written, and even then the outrage becomes fleeting. So let's be honest. The people who do care about these issues, the messengers, they're often written off, treated like cranks, purists, or out-of-touch do-gooders. But what if we brought these two groups together?
What if the campaign finance reformers and the deficit hawks stopped working in silos and started working in tandem? because the connection is clear as day to me. If you want smaller deficits, you've got to get money out of politics. You can't have one without the other.
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Chapter 3: What challenges did 'The Diplomat' face during development?
They're issues that go nowhere unless we decide to bring them back to life. So I'd love to hear from you. Shoot me a note at AskChuck at TheChuckPodcast.com. Would love to hear your thoughts, your ideas about how we can somehow Take these two issues.
And again, campaign finance reform is something I hear about from my friends on the left and focusing and getting the media to focus more on the debt is the conversation I hear on the right. I want you two groups to meet with each other. Don't just expect us at the press to figure this out. Although I think it's a pretty easy connection to be made.
But if you're truly concerned about this trajectory, I think the two issues go hand in hand. So before I get to my guest, I want to do a little campaign update with a few campaign nuggets from the trail. As you know, this is what I do every day. I'm obsessed about the latest small little incremental developments on that front.
But my guest, by the way, Deborah Kahn, she's the showrunner for The Diplomat. You know, if you love Diplomat, to see how politics is, and our culture today is handling it. I think what Deborah's done with The Diplomat is as good as anything out there, right? It's a bit more realistic than the first show, political show she worked on, one that you may have heard of called The West Wing.
Anyway, you will enjoy this guy. If you love The Diplomat, if you loved Homeland, if you like West Wing, you're gonna love this conversation. with my new good friend now, Deborah Kahn. I say that because we've got some mutual friends in common and it is, I have to say, she's just a delight. So I hope you enjoy the conversation. But let me do a little few down ballot updates.
I want to talk about one in particular, a couple of senior U.S. senators that there's some chatter that they may step down and you may see them replaced by even more progressive folks, Jeff Merkley in Oregon. He is expected to make a decision next month. Look, this is a seat that will likely stay Democratic. Ironically, it wasn't.
You know, when I first started in politics, Oregon was a swing state, regularly had at least one Republican senator and at times sometimes two in any given. I think there was a time when I first started was Bob Packwood and Mark Hatfield, both Republicans. So this was a swing state. George W. Bush.
I ran into somebody over the Memorial Day weekend who said, yeah, I was in charge of keeping Oregon in play in 2004. I mean, it wasn't that long ago that we thought Oregon was swingish, if you will. But I don't think so in this sort of Trump version of the Republican Party. And then there's chatter about Ed Markey. Now, Markey said he's running for reelection, which means he could get primaried.
But he survived a primary against a Kennedy. So it's hard to imagine if a Kennedy – couldn't knock him off. And this was Joe III, if you follow. But Kennedy could knock him off. I'm a little skeptical that an Ayanna Pressley or a Jake Auchincloss, which is floated out there, could do it as well. But certainly something to keep an eye on. And then one more development.
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Chapter 4: How did real-world events shape the narrative of 'The Diplomat'?
And now Rahm Emanuel has agreed to do a fish fry in the fall in Iowa as well. So... If the presidential case, is this one of those cases? Gee, I wonder if this is the right state to use this language with. If you build it, the party will come. So the candidates themselves are sort of showing up in Iowa.
And eventually the Democratic Party may have to just suck it up, grin and bear it, and realize that two of their last three presidents to go from zeros to heroes, Jimmy Carter and Barack Obama, all used Iowa as their launching pad. Maybe it's not such a bad place to launch presidential candidates from, especially if you're the party out of power these days.
Just a thought for all of those folks in the Democratic Party that wanted to trash Iowa because it wasn't diverse enough or wasn't this enough or that enough. It's those voters. Remember, there are more Obama to Trump counties in eastern Iowa than in all the other states combined, I believe. Just think about that.
So if you crack the code in Iowa, Democrats, you likely will crack the code in the rest of the country. So with that, let me pause. And when we come back, Debra Kahn. And joining me now is the creator of The Diplomat, which we're all excited is still going. Can't wait for the next season. It's Deborah Kahn.
Chapter 5: What is the significance of satire in today's political landscape?
She has been working in the world of television with political dramas for some time now and West Wing Homeland. But The Diplomat is is one that she created. And there's a fun backstories, plural backstories. that I've heard about and backstories that you haven't told that I hope to prod out of you. Deborah Kahn, welcome to the Toddcast.
Great to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation.
So let's talk about before we get into the nuts and bolts of making the diplomat and getting access to the embassy residence itself, which is always I love that story in the UK. It was really cool to feel as if, hey, I've I've landed in a helicopter on the back lawn of that thing. And I'll get I'll get into that. But you've done what a lot of people.
in journalism and sometimes in the political world, all want to do is you broke into Hollywood. You've been writing you from West Wing. And I'm very curious of your thoughts on Mr. Sorkin and what you're doing today. How'd you do it? A lot of my listeners, a lot of the hosts of this podcast are all want to know how you did it.
Well, I was not a politics person. I had been an intern on Capitol Hill once upon a time, but not for very long and didn't... I think when I first... when I first had to interview with Aaron to go work on the West Wing, I went back and like watched all the schoolhouse rock, like how a build becomes a lot.
Make sure you knew how important was that in the West Wing writers room? Because it's funny, you know, I have a hot and cold relationship with West Wing. I love Sorkin, love a lot of the stuff he's done. I, as somebody who worked in politics in the 90s and worked in media in the 90s, I hated West Wing only because it was not realistic. I'd be like, God damn it.
They keep making things look like it's that easy or that a president will just march up to the hill. And here it is. And yet you're telling me that how important was it to be realistic or not when it came to the West Wing?
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Chapter 6: How does Debora Cahn approach writing complex female characters?
When I came into the West Wing, which was in the fourth season, they were looking for a lot of people who had real Washington experience. More than just Lawrence O'Donnell? Well, Lawrence was there at that time. He was also there a little bit earlier. But they were looking for – they hired like eight new people, most of whom had been –
consultants or worked on campaigns or, you know, worked on the Hill for X years. And I had kind of just enough Washington to get myself in the door. And when I saw everybody else who was there, I was like, oh, I'm going to be fired this afternoon.
Chapter 7: What insights does Debora Cahn share about working with different showrunners?
Because you thought you didn't have enough of the Washington experience to keep up with the writer's room.
Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I was just flooded with nausea every day for the first few months.
That's always the best feeling to make you work harder.
It did make me work really fucking hard, man. But I also realized, and I think they realized at a certain point, that I didn't have the kind of background that everybody else in the room did, but everybody else in the room had that, and so I didn't need to. Whereas I was coming in, like Aaron, who I absolutely loved working for, and I have always been a huge, huge fan of his writing. I am too.
you know, dude's got a musical theater background. And I come from the theater like that, the rhythm and the musicality that I think was such a big part of what he was doing was that was something that I understood. And that was something that I kind of had a biorhythmic sense of. And so I brought that to the table, which was a different thing. And
How did you, tell me how you would have, how did you infuse the style of musical theater into West Wing, which of course didn't have musical interludes?
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Chapter 8: What does Chuck Todd think about the interview with Debora Cahn?
Well, a lot of it is about rhythm. People talk about how fast people talked on the West Wing and the patter and the interplay of characters that very much comes from.
There was definitely, it felt like you wanted to fit the moment or almost feel lyrical in some ways.
Yeah, and scenes were written musically. Interesting. Yeah, absolutely.
Should West Wing have been, have you ever thought about readapting West Wing as a musical?
as a musical, it's something to look into. I'm not really sure I'm the person to make it happen, but.
I mean, we do all these re-adaptations all the time, right? You're like, boy, that's one that I hadn't thought about, but you go get like, you go, I would love to see Lin-Manuel Miranda and Aaron Sorkin team up and make it a musical, right? Like in theory, that would be interesting.
Without question, there is a huge, you know, DNA relationship between the work of Lin-Manuel Miranda and Aaron Sorkin.
Go back to that writer's room. What did you learn? Was that your first big writer's room?
That was my first writer's room where I was not an assistant. I had been in one writer's room before that, and my job was to take notes. So I was what was called a baby writer, and I was there to be seen and not heard and do research.
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