The Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz
Local Hour: Andrew Hawkins on De'Vandre Campbell Quitting
Fri, 13 Dec 2024
Today's Cast: Dan, Stugotz, David, Hawk, Roy, Mike, Tony, Jess. It's a packed house this Friday morning and we begin by talking about that stinker of a Thursday Night Football game last night between the San Francisco 49ers and Los Angeles Rams. The top story was not the football game, but rather 49ers linebacker, De'Vondre Campbell, apparently quitting in the middle of the game. We discuss the reaction from Kyle Shanahan, George Kittle and Charvarius Ward in the postgame press conference and whether or not Campbell is likely to ever play again in the NFL. Andrew Hawkins shares that he sometimes considered doing the same and brings us inside the mind of a football player in that moment. Plus, Jessica cannot wait for Bowl Season to start on Saturday and Hawk tells us about his experience playing in bowl games which included a designer hammer and a portable DVD player. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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This is the Dan Levitar Show with the Stugatz Podcast. This is the Dan Levitar Show with the Stugatz Podcast.
Damn, I miss Thursday night football when both teams have a week's worth of rest. That's what happens occasionally on Thursday night football in an otherwise really boring game. We did get a national talking point out of the game, and we have an interesting cast of characters to walk you through that. Dan's a little late, so pinch hitting for him is Dan.
Andrew Hawkins, a former NFL player, a former player rep, and a former team president, and David Sampson. These ingredients have never been together before, and we get to talk about a player quitting on his team. Let's go.
Did you say Dan is pinch-hitting for Dan?
I'm sorry, Stugatz is pinch-hitting for Dan.
It's a squirt in the lineup.
Sorry, late scratch. So, Stugatz, you're not a former player, you're not a former team president, but you are a hot take artist that found out about this story five minutes ago. So I am going to be very curious of your take.
However, for the audience that doesn't know, Devontae Campbell, a backup occasional starter linebacker for the San Francisco 49ers, was called upon to enter the game, refused to enter the game. And we have sound from all the key players involved. First, let me walk you through this. Kyle Shanahan was asked about what happened after the game. Here's the sound.
What happened with Devondre Campbell? He didn't play and he went into the locker room at some point?
Yeah, he said he didn't want to play today.
Play today?
Yep.
The coaching staff?
He did when I asked him why he didn't want to go in.
During the game or before?
No, that was in the third quarter.
Hawk, you were on the Cleveland Browns with Kyle Shanahan, right? Yeah. Yeah, I was there. How do you think this flies with Coach Kyle?
Oh, he's pissed. He's pissed. He is. His team had just lost, too. I mean, they took an L. Look, I'd be lying if I said I never thought about leaving mid-game. Really? I mean, we had some bad losses in my day. When you say quit, you mean quit your career? Yeah, like maybe this is the minute. Maybe this is the minute I'm done. Right here.
You never do it.
But you can fantasize about it. You've never fantasized about quitting a job? Come on, nobody in here fantasized about quitting their job in the middle of a work day.
Are you joking? I mean, during the show, after the show, at night. You know what I'm saying?
I know it's like, man, I can't believe you've done that. We've all had this fantasy before of just being like, you know what? To hell with this, bro. I'm going home. You know what I'm saying? Do you always act on it? No. How about ever? Did you ever act on it? I've never acted on it.
Were these fleeting thoughts or legitimate things that you were contemplating on the sideline before they called you in on the drive?
Mike, I imagine he's down 31-7 in the third quarter and he's like, what am I doing out here?
This sport hurts, man. It's more dangerous to go in than for me to walk off the field. Look, now look, I have told a coach I'm not going in before.
Was it against the Steelers?
It was not against the Steelers.
I wish it would have been against the Steelers. Those teams would beat you up physically. I imagine when you're 0-16.
I'd be in a lot better situation health-wise right now. Wait, so you told the coach? Yeah, I told the coach I would not do that. Really? Now, I don't know what the situation is with Campbell, right? And I know it looks terrible. And it is terrible. If I was his teammate, I would also be pissed. Like, you think we wanted to go in, bro?
Well, wait, the situation, just to be clear, is that he had started 12 of the first 13 games. He was second on the team in tackles. But then Greenlaw, who he had replaced because he had an Achilles injury, Greenlaw got healthy. He gets his starting job back. And then Campbell's back on the bench. But then Greenlaw said, oh, I got a little thing. I got a thing.
And then the coach said, all right, we're going back to you. And Campbell said, you didn't want me. An hour ago, forget it. And he literally walked off. Are we really going to act like we don't understand that a little bit? A little bit of that logic. I'd release him on the spot. I would have gone to the locker room and released him on the spot.
I don't care if he's on waivers and goes to a playoff team. I don't want him in that uniform again. It's a disgrace. But, David, wait a second. Let's hear Hawk out because there's a human element.
There's a human element? Yes. The guy's upset. I'm not saying he's right.
I'm just saying let's take a moment. to try to understand this situation. You have a girl. No moments. A guy did your girl wrong in her previous relationship. And you come in and save the day. And you've been the best boyfriend that anybody could ask for. I know where this is going. All of a sudden, ex-boyfriend comes back around and says, I've been working on myself. I went to therapy.
I'm a different person now. And she says, you know what? He was my first love. I'm going to give him a chance.
It's wrong.
Within the first week, he's back to his old tricks. And she comes crawling back to you, David. And she says, you know what? I need you. I'm going through a tough time. Things didn't go the way we planned. And you know what? I realize now you're the one I want. You're going back in that game?
If I'm extra lonely and I'm on a cold streak, that sounds like a you problem, David.
Is this girl paying me $10.7 million for the year or no? That's a good point. It's a lot of money. It's a good question. I don't know.
It depends on- She's not. It's a lot of money.
A lot of money, and to David Sampson's point of, I'll cut him on the spot, that is a lot of money. But Guy A is unreliable.
Guy A is the guy that she wants, but he's unreliable, and Guy B is tired of being there when Guy A becomes unreliable again. I hate to be your backup player.
Well, Hawk mentioned how this might go over in the locker room with the teammates. Let's hear from his teammates. First, Treverius Ward had something to say.
I mean, he's a professor. He's been playing for a long time. I mean, if he didn't want to play, he shouldn't have dressed up. You know, they could have told him that before the game. So I feel like there was some sucker s*** that he did. Definitely hurt the team because, you know, D went down. And we needed a linebacker, and I think Flam was named up too.
So for him to do that, that's some so good stuff to me, in my opinion. It's probably gonna get cut soon, so it is what it is with that.
And the thing about Javerius Ward is he had a daughter that passed away at one years old, played a couple weeks later. So you're looking at a guy who has gone through some of the worst things imaginable and then yet went out and did his job and was there with his teammates day in and day out. So he's looking and being like, bro, what are we doing?
He's also playing a position in which Fred Warner is excelling at his position with a fractured ankle. He's played several games in a row with that fractured ankle. Your take on what Ward had to say before we get to another team leader in George Kittle.
I didn't really hear anything about it until I got in the locker room, so it's all brand new information to me. Look, if you're on the roster and you suit up, expect to play. I think if anyone in this building got asked to go in, I would say 100% of everybody would die and get on that football field. And so, people go through or going through random things off the field, I can't speak on that.
You know, his decision was it wasn't for this organization, it wasn't for this team. And, no, that's on him. So, not very happy about it. I would have something to say. I wish I would have heard about it on the field, but I didn't. Now, is that the reason we lost? Absolutely not. But you don't really – it's hard to win football games when someone doesn't want to play football.
So now, Hawk, you have the Niners, yeah. You have one of their best players, George Kittle. You have one of the best tight ends, one of the leaders of that team, calling that guy out. How do you feel about that? Because that's what would happen to you if you had quit one of those games. Yeah, I wouldn't have quit.
Here's the thing. I completely agree with everything every player has said. I completely agree with what you guys are saying. I think this is one of those moments in sports and football where everybody is going to be on one side because it's clearly the right side. To his point, it's hard to win football games when guys don't want to play football. Devil's advocate. Yes.
He's actually doing the 49ers a favor. Really? Because this is the conversation versus how terrible they've been playing. So they should be thanking him for giving them this out at the end of a game because that was a horrible football game.
Why is that a bad take? Because he's right. We're not talking about Kyle Shanahan today. We're not talking about Brock Purdy and how bad he was yesterday.
I bought the over-under to 17. So I have no idea why anyone's upset at all. I did a Stugatz. The 12-6 game was a barn burner. Loved every minute of having six field goals.
So does this deflect from a loss that pretty much ends San Francisco's season? Or does it compound some of the larger issues? Because... If you're a Niners fan and you're watching that game, you're wondering about the blueprint. And then you have a productive player quitting on you, a player that you're paying a lot of money to quitting on you, too.
It does kind of feel like, is this the end for this? Not necessarily regime because Kyle's in high demand, but their window certainly feels like it might have closed and slammed shut.
It already did. Wow. Yeah, I told you that five weeks ago that the 49ers window was closed on Tony's top five. I saw it from beginning to end. And that was even before the McCaffrey injury.
I wrote it down, yeah. I do think it's a microcosm of what's going on in the 49ers. I think they have aging superstars, and you just can't run that kind of positionless offense and style when guys are hurt and routinely injured and not playing well. I mean, Deebo's asking for the ball, and he's dropping what seems to be a touchdown pass at moments. Like, yeah, this is a microcosm of what—
the state of the 49ers is. And again, I know we're all joking here, but that is bullshit. To quit a game, there is an accountability that happens with the football team. You hear it in Kittle's voice, and you expect the guy next to you to be as locked in as you are. We're going to do everything we can to get a win.
We're going to come in here, and under any circumstance, even if it's the littlest contribution, we're going to do whatever is needed. And clearly that wasn't the case. Now, again, he might be going through something mentally. We've seen moments where guys have left mid-game. You know, this is probably closer to the A-B situation than the rest in peace Vontae Davis situation.
Because it just felt like mentally Vontae Davis just wasn't in that moment, end of his career. You know, it was like, this is too much. I've moved cities this many times. Where A-B's was very similar to this. He wanted the football. They weren't giving it to him. They told him to go in. At the end, he was like, no. You didn't give me the ball, I'm not going. And this feels more like that.
You don't expect it from a 31-year-old linebacker who's been in this league a long time. Thankfully, he kept his shirt on.
So I viewed that as a positive.
No, I wouldn't say that because then we didn't know. We didn't find out until after. I wish you would have because we made it a little more interesting.
It was so disgusting. We all would have quit. I would have quit just to be outside of the weather.
In the rain, yes.
It was disgusting. I mean, please. You guys all would have walked. You wouldn't have stayed out there. Arthritis going. Arthritis.
I've had insight from previous union reps before, Hawk, but I haven't really had the opportunity to talk to you about these short week Thursday night football games because it's always a national talking point any time you have a really bad game. And last night was a really bad game. Watch out for the Rams, though. Sneaky. Yeah. I mean, they just have the Jets, Cards, Hawks. Keep an eye on them.
You're right. They can be ours in the playoffs. I'm with you. They are sneaky. But were you in – I imagine you were representing your team when it came to these discussions on the short week Thursday night football games. That was slop. Now, there is slop occasionally on Sundays. Lord knows the AFC South was putting up about a decade's worth of divisional slop. But, I mean, you can't ignore it.
They're paying a lot of money. This is a feature game. It does have some stakes attached to it, and it was just garbage.
Yeah, it was garbage. And, I mean, there's garbage games on Sundays as well. Now, look, my take when I was in the league on Thursday night football, I hated them. I mean, they were the bane of my existence. The two things I hated most in the NFL were Thursday night football games and joint training camp practices.
Because joint training camp practices are a sneaky way for teams to add, like, three preseason games. Because you go harder in those joint practices than you do in the games because you're there and you're like, okay, I'm practicing against the Bills. I might be a free agent next year or this year.
So we're like literally competing for two coaching staffs to show what you have on like a, oh, this is my chance. And guys go way too hard. And then you play. Play that team again. Because they're looking for a job.
Oh, I hate it. I think it is, again, the sneakiest way to add four preseason football games. What about the day after the Thursday game? It may have been a bad game, but now they get 10 days off.
Yeah, I mean, that's valid. How about the glass half full? We're sitting here being so negative. That's the part I didn't mind. But it is hard to get up for a Thursday. Now, here's the other part for players. Like, everything feels like the worst thing in the world. Until you're in it.
As an old person in the league, when the Thursday night football games were coming around, I was like, this is crazy. This is terrible. But then over time, the young guys didn't care because it's just life to them.
Yeah, but does your body physically feel different getting up for a Thursday game? I would just always assume maybe they're a little bit more sore. How do they get up and muster the same kind of effort? No, not when you're young, man.
The old guys feel it. The young guys, I mean, when I was 23, 24, I didn't even warm up, bro. I just walked out to practice.
That's my kind of guy.
And I'm like, you're putting on Bengay before practice? How old are you, dude? By the time I was 30, I'm hot tub, cold tub. You're bathing in Bengay.
Massage. Heat pack.
Heat pack. Ice pack. 17 Advil.
Thinking about quitting.
Meditation moments. Insoles in the shoes. Tort all. Green tea. Greenies. No, this is no bullshit. I would leave our position meeting. My receiver coach let me out of my position meeting 20 minutes earlier just so I could go through my routine to be ready for practice. That's how old I got.
Let's not forget a week ago, though, there was 65 points scored on Thursday night between the Packers and the Lions.
Let's not forget a week ago they had seven days rest. Sure, okay, understood.
But still, there's been good Thursday games. The issue, too, this week was the tsunami and the rainstorm that came out of nowhere in the Bay Area. Nobody was expecting that. And then all of a sudden, here it is before the game, torrential downpour. That's what you should be boycotting.
It's San Francisco.
Right, it happens.
All of a sudden, it came out of nowhere. It's the worst weather city of all the baseball cities. Seattle's worse. Plain and Candlestick Park, there's a roof. But Plain and Candlestick Park, I don't know if you ever did, but it's the worst.
I say dome every NFL stadium. Nobody likes that take, but... Grass?
Grass.
Get rid of the elements. I do not want to play in rain.
I do not want to play in snow. Hawk, football was meant to be played outside. It was meant to be played in the elements. What are you talking about? Maybe the old football. Frozen tundra.
Maybe when the Stugas were running backs in the NFL.
The autumn wind is a pirate. St.
Francis goes nice until Thanksgiving-ish.
The fake Mark Twain quote about coldest winters being summers that he didn't actually say. No, you have to have some element of elements in this sport.
Can we get it right? The worst winter I ever spent was the summer I spent in San Francisco.
Right, but it wasn't actually Mark Twain that said it.
But it wasn't the quote you said either. I know, so I don't have to respect the quote if it's not a real quote.
Dan, we have perfect fodder. A football player quit on his team, so it's wonderful as the season just flames out in embers. Hawk admitted that he had considered, but not seriously. I'm curious, what was one point in your career where you were like, ah. I don't know, Jim.
One in 15 season. When you're like, it's the third quarter, you're down by 30. Right. You know, the defense is out there. They start to say, punt return on alert. You're like, I got to go back out here and risk getting my head taken off knowing there's no chance for us to win this game or probably any game for the remainder of this season. But you went back out there. But I went back out there.
Every single time. And I don't know if that was me being institutionalized, but I did fantasize about it.
Peanut Tillman said that he was playing in a game in Chicago, and this is Peanut Tillman, right? Notorious tough guy, where the field was so much ice and stuff that when he went out there, he's like, I just don't want to do this. I want to quit. I want to stop playing football.
It's a Tuesday for people to feel that in their job, but you don't manifest it, especially when you're a professional athlete in the public view. You don't manifest it by walking off the field the way he did. The image that we haven't shown... He's hurt, David. He wasn't limping. No, no, no. He is hurt. His ego is hurt, yes.
Oh, I'm so sorry, Stu. There's no rehab for feelings in the NFL. Very sad.
But Hawk, can he get a job again? Because this is the cardinal sin, right? The times I have seen... Players react the way George Kittle did. Barrett Robbins, when he didn't show up for a Super Bowl because he had a bipolar episode. And Vontae Davis, when he quit at halftime of a Bills game. It's the only time I've seen players react the way they react because it's the cardinal sin.
Will another team put this player on a roster once he's cut because this is the worst thing you can do in football is choose not to play when your teammates need you?
I won't say it's impossible, Dan. I mean, if he still wants, I don't know. That's the point. Like, if I walk off a field, I have no intentions on ever walking back on it. Like, when Vontae Davis left, he wasn't coming back to a football field. He knew that. He's like, you know what? This is the moment where I feel like my career is done.
The reason I ask the question is because this is a player. who has, like all players in the NFL, worked so much of his life to get to this point, and now we're learning his name associated with quitting. This is what he's getting. He is known now more for quitting than he is for playing.
And I think that is what's going to block him from playing on another team. I don't think he's going to want to come back from this. But he's a good player.
He is.
He was also the 2023 Walter Payton Man of the Year nominee. So it's like a good dude... He's just done.
He should just do a Costanza, show up at practice the next day and pretend like nothing ever happened.
Not letting him. Don't you think other teams, even within that division, will understand like, OK, he performed admirably in the starter's place. Starter comes back, starts not feeling completely right. They ask him to go in and not a good moment. Certainly quitting. But if you add just the additional context, people can understand like this was maybe just an emotional moment.
But that happens every single day. There's guys that play great, and then all of a sudden, hey, the starter's back in. Your ass is on the bench. Guess what? I've got to make sure that next time my number's called, I'm playing great so that I become a starter.
Yeah, but then the starter comes back, and he's not good enough to play anymore. Then the starter gets hurt, and then he wants him to go back in.
He's like, no, I ain't going back in. Mid-game holdout, man. They should have just negotiated a new contract. He'd have been in there by the 4th.
Does it surprise you that it's a veteran that's doing this?
It does surprise me. That's why I'm leaning more towards the is he trying to retire type of thing. Or is it that, yo, I didn't warm up to go in here to play. If I go out there, I'm going to get exposed.
Fred Warner has been playing on a fractured ankle for 11 weeks. I don't even know how a human being does that. The rest of that team is falling apart after being one of the best teams in the league for five years only because their guys keep getting carried off the field. They're physically broken, and this guy does that.
I think he loses friendships over something like that in that locker room, given what trust means in your particular game.
Yeah. No, he definitely loses friendships if he had them. You'd be surprised how there's not like real friendships in the NFL. But regardless, you're absolutely right on all those things. I'm just trying to like put myself in the mind of Campbell of what could be going through your mind at 31, which is old in the NFL linebacker who's been on the sideline the entirety of the game.
Maybe you didn't warm up the way that you thought you would because you didn't think you were playing. And in this moment, it's like a. I can't go in there because I'm going to get exposed because I'm not ready to play. Now that is something I can identify with. My rookie year with the Bengals in preseason, this is the second preseason game. Now I'm a guy coming from Canada. I'm low on the roster.
And I'm like, I'm trying to do everything in my damn power to just stick around on the roster. It was late in maybe the first game that I played. I can't remember who it was against. Maybe the Jets, maybe the Lions. But Marvin Lewis walks up to me and he's like, hey, go out there and jump in on punt return. Or the special teams coordinator, Coach Simmons, and I'm like, no.
And he like, eyes went up, and he's like, wait a minute. I said, go punt return. And I was like, yeah, no, I didn't practice that. And he's like, gives me another opportunity to say, hey, Hawk, get your ass out there and return these punts. And I said, coach, I didn't practice that. And I don't want to go out there and drop a punt.
And then you cut me and then all the rest of the 31 teams see that I can't catch punts and I don't have a chance. Marvin Lewis comes over to try to convince me. And I said, look, if you give me a week, I will return punts next week. They were like, okay, interesting. Interesting strategy. You're crazy, man. That week, I worked on punt returns all week. They put me in.
I returned it for 41 yards in the first punt return. Made the practice squad. That's an honest to God, true story. But I was not willing to go out there and just seal my fate when I wasn't confident in myself and abilities.
I can't believe you did that.
That is a true story.
I can't believe that you told coaches who were coming to you on the sidelines asking for a favor. I haven't practiced that. It's not a favor.
They're asking him to do something he's never done before.
I'm not prepared. He's done it a bunch of times in his life before, just not for that team. I sucked at catching punts.
It's hard. The stakes are too big to go out here and just give it a shot because no one's going to have that content. I'm imagining you as a punt returner.
It's the worst job in football.
It is. I didn't return a single punt or kick in my career, and I'm 5'7". I'm the first sub 5'10 receiver in NFL history who was truly just a wide receiver. I don't think you guys realize that. I was not a returner. I can't believe they didn't waive you. I know. But it was a bet I was willing to make.
Was that naivete, like you're just entering the league? Absolutely not. If veteran Hawk was around, would he advise young Hawk differently?
That might have been the wisest I've ever been in my life.
It's unbelievably smart. I just can't believe your coaches accepted it without consequences.
So here's what happened previously to even me getting to Cincinnati. Lockout happened and I had signed with the Rams. And I got cut on day one. And I had a great practice. The one thing that happened in practice one is I dropped the punt. So if I'm the Rams and you might be thinking, oh, he's 5'7 and he dropped two punts. And I'm like, well, maybe that's why they cut me.
Won't make that mistake again. Get to Cincinnati. Not in a game, brother. Go out there and return. Absolutely not. And it was a thing. Like Marvin Lewis, the special teams coordinator, the receiver coach, they're like trying to convince me like, hey, you don't know how bad of a light this is putting you in. But I had to bet on myself in that moment.
You're not even betting on yourself. You're just betting that you're going to return a fund. You're betting on the fact that you're going to fumble. You're betting against yourself. Could have scored a touchdown.
I mean – The other team could have scored a touchdown, too.
That's true. You're good.
It's outrageous. I want to hear more about your fake NFL friends. I want to tell you a story. I'm serious here. My wife and my two daughters, they begged me to buy a Peloton. So I bought a Peloton. And then I watched that Peloton sit in my office and stare at me. So you know what I did one day? I looked at it.
And so I decided to get off my ass and I jumped on the Peloton because no one else was using it and I paid for it. I mean, so why not? Then I realized eventually that they bought it for me. And I got to tell you, way more challenging than I could have ever imagined. Peloton coaches are walking the walk. I love the coaches. I do the Grateful Dead one. It's fantastic.
They have a sub three hour marathon runner, military trained athlete, a former college basketball player and so many other well-rounded coaches on their team. All this experience really shows in their classes. which are never short of challenging, especially for me. So I jumped on it that first time.
It was challenging, more challenging than I thought, and then I wanted to beat the bike, and so I kept jumping on it, and I absolutely love it. I mean, I'm the only one who uses it, but again, they got it for me. I mean, I had no idea. That's a little passive-aggressive, don't you think? Find your push, find your power with Peloton at OnePeloton.com.
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Don Levitard. Bob Craft. The only reason your organization is good is because of Bill Belichick. Stugatz. Belichick has done nothing since Brady left. He made the playoffs once. I think at the very least, he should not be a first ballot Hall of Famer. They should make him wait like 10 years to get it. He's an overrated coach.
Some of the ticket prices for these college football playoff games are insane, but it's the first time we've ever seen games with this kind of stakes attached in home on-campus venues. Really in-demand tickets, and I'm sure a lot of you are frustrated because you're wondering, how can I get these in-demand tickets? Jess, I know you're headed up to South Bend for a playoff game against Indiana.
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Jessica, what is your level of enthusiasm for Saturday and bowl season?
You mean this Saturday.
That's right.
I thought you meant the Notre Dame game, which is next Friday. I won tickets in the lottery. Oh, really? Yeah, don't have to go on the secondary market. Very exciting. Face value.
Congratulations. Thank you. Are you afraid of losing to Indiana? Indiana?
Well said. Yeah, I mean, I think it's going to be a great game. I'm really excited. It's like two teams that never play each other, where every single person who's a fan of either team is either a fan of the other team also or knows someone who is. Like, it's a very two kind of close-knit thing.
fan communities i think so i'm excited my best friend went to indiana a lot of my friends went to indiana indiana um it's it's great i think it's going to be super cool but yeah this saturday bowl season starts there is a bowl game this saturday hawk i know you played in a couple bowl games while you were at toledo yeah big time bowl games detroit one of the motor city bowl right and then you played in the gmac bowl which is in alabama mobile alabama to be specific
So Toledo is actually playing in the Detroit Bowl game against Pitt this year.
Yeah, we played in that one a lot. Very exciting. You have Pittsburgh ties, right?
Yes, Pitt, yeah. I know you're from Johnstown, Johnstown Flood. We've been over David McCullough's wonderful book on the flood.
Absolutely. It needs to be a movie.
It does need to be a movie. Who would you cast in the movie of the Johnstown Flood?
I've been thinking about this a lot, actually. Leonardo DiCaprio I think would be great.
As Andrew Carnegie?
I don't know about Carnegie. Tom Hanks, also. I don't know if you've heard of these actors.
They're usually up for the same roles.
Yeah, and it'd be great to get them both in there. There's a lot of white guys. Plenty to go around.
DiCaprio could be a good evil Andrew Carnegie.
Yeah.
Oh, we're going to build our fancy retreat in this place.
Everyone is so lost right now, Jessica. Me and you know what happened.
Exactly.
The rest of the world needs to understand that this was the biggest natural disaster on American soil until Hurricane Katrina in my hometown. Okay? Okay.
Also, Altoona's been in the news a lot lately. We discussed Altoona and The Curve on the show prior to the most recent news.
Now I feel at home, Jessica. Thank you, Dan. You're welcome. You should be more like Jessica. She knows how to welcome me in.
People say that about him all the time.
I would imagine.
What is it like as a football player at Toledo to play in the postseason and play in these bowl games? Because I personally love bowl season.
I've been saddened by... You played when it mattered. When bowls mattered.
Yeah, exactly. I've been slightly saddened that the sort of... seven and five team to eight and 14 bowl games have been not devalued because they're not devalued to me, but it seems like there's less enthusiasm from a lot of people now that we have the 12 team playoff. So as a player, I guess, what's your perspective on bowl season in general?
Yeah, that's a great question. And you know what I love about this show is I can be honest. I don't I'm not honest anywhere else as much as I am here. I hated bowl games.
It sucked. You got swag bags. Yeah, I mean.
What was the swag bag like for the GMAC Bowl? I think for the GMAC Bowl, we got a, this is an old time. It was like a portable DVD player. Nice. We got a camcorder for, actually no, we got a portable DVD player and a camcorder for the Motor City Bowl, which is my freshman year. We went against Dan Orlovsky, torched us.
In year two, we went against Jordan Palmer and the UTEP Miners, I believe is their mascot. And they gave us like a designer hammer. And I'm like, okay, this is, I'm good on bowl season. They elongated our season, You practice for a month and a half after your season is done. A hammer? They gave you a hammer? They gave us a hammer, man.
It's a designer hammer. I've never heard that. It was like a specially designed hammer. Like a Louis Vuitton wrapped hammer?
I don't know what the hell it was, but I didn't play in another bowl game for the rest of my career, and I didn't lose a night of sleep.
So if your team was like five and six going into the last week of the season, would you like maybe, you know, not try that hard?
I mean, I wouldn't throw the game if that's what you're asking.
But like season's over if you lose.
Also, I don't know if you've been to Toledo, Ohio. Oh my God, are you kidding?
I have family in Toledo, Ohio. I've been there a million times.
It is miserable. Perrysburg? And we didn't have an indoor facility. This is the Mac conference we're talking about.
There's a great science museum there, though.
I've never been to the science museum. No, we're just practicing in the snow for an extra month and a half. Only to go get whooped by whatever six-round quarterback. To get hammered and to get hammered. Both. Yes. It was miserable.
So making a bowl meant an additional month out in the elements.
Damn it. It's like, what, 15 extra practices that you get for bowl season? So would your perspective have been different if you made the Bahamas Bowl or the Hawaii Bowl?
Yes, absolutely.
So the problem here is the— The destination, absolutely.
For sure.
That makes a lot of sense.
That's what I would expect. Count me in on the Bahamas Bowl. What are you shaking your head about, Samson? All I'm hearing from Hawkins, and I'm happy working with him today, but all I'm hearing are things that I have such contempt for that I'm having a hard time because I'm trying. I'm trying to like you. You have a Yankee hat on. You're talking about walking out.
You're talking about not telling a coach that you won't go in to catch a punt. And now you're saying that you don't want to practice the extra for a bowl game. I thought it was business first with you, David. I thought that was. The business is telling your coach that you're going to go in. That's like saying, oh, I'm not good at bunting. Don't put the bun sign on.
No, that's your business. Are you in the business of not getting a career? I'm in the business of not losing my career. So I got to go. You're on the practice squad. I wasn't yet. So what career did you have? I can promise you, had I went in there and dropped a punt, I would not be sitting at the – I can guarantee you, David, had I got in there and dropped a punt against the Carolina Panthers –
In my second preseason game of my rookie year.
You guys would have no idea who I am. You guys don't understand, though, what an amazing decision that was that he had to make when he's doing the calculations on, if I drop a punt, I'm going to get waived. Am I going to get waived if I tell my coaches I'm not going to do this? There is calculations happening on your career on the sideline right there.
And he provided – crucial insight in that he muffed a punt and got cut immediately, so he knows the cause and effect with his time at the Rams. I might make a mistake, Mike.
I'll never make a mistake twice.
You know, it's funny. You detail all these things that kind of sound miserable. Practicing outside at Toledo, CFL, winning one professional football game in two full seasons. Toledo. Toledo. Toledo. Holy Toledo. So you go through all of that. And then you go to Foxborough and you link up with the Patriots. You have the greatest quarterback of all time and the greatest head coach of all time.
And that's when you decide, eh, that's enough.
Yeah, I think this is it. It's too good now. Yeah. I need misery. And actually, my first practice in New England, it snowed. It was May 28th. So there is that.
You tell Belichick you're not returning a punt. You think it's going the same way that it went with Marvin Lewis? Hell no.
Absolutely not. That's not how that works.
I wanted to ask you about something I've been talking about for a couple of days, funny enough. So Odell Beckham and the Dolphins agreed to mutually part ways. And one of the things that I was saying this week is, How does Odell Beckham, given where he's been in sports and fame and stardom, feel about playing a Dolphin game and seeing a stat line that has one catch for one yard?
I was arguing that a receiver might rather have zero catches for zero yards because then people can assume he didn't play.
Like the Chris Bosh rule. Chris Bosh had like one point in an NBA finals game.
Zero.
Scoreless in a game seven. There was a basketball player that had one point in a playoff game, and I was like, I'd rather have zero. Zero? Yeah, I'd rather have zero than just one singular point.
One catch for one yard? You don't want zeros. One catch for one yard is just as bad as all zeros, but all zeros shows that you played and didn't get a catch.
I think one catch for one yard is worse than zero for zero yards. But what if I make it one catch for negative one yard? Then do you prefer that to zero for zero yards?
I think I've had games with negative receiving yards. Can we check the stats on those?
Well, I'm checking the stats on the 2005 GMAC Bowl and the 2004 Motor City Bowl. What does it say? You're not on either box score.
Exactly.
In this case, you'd rather have one catch for one yard.
You know why I'm not in the box score, Jessica? Because you went return a punt?
Because you were a freshman.
Because I broke my back the game before and I did not play in the bowl game. That's one year. What about the second? The first year, it's zero catches, zero yards. Because I did play in that game.
Can you guys get for me the last time I heard I broke my back said quite that way when Mike Tyson was in a ring being interviewed by Jim Gray?
The problem, Hawk, is that your defense gave up 17 points in the first quarter to Orlovsky.
Yeah.
I mean, that's a tough place to come back from.
That was a tough game.
Better second quarter for the Rockets, but when you're down 17-0. What can you actually do?
We lost our number one receiver in Lance Moore. Bruce got hurt. Bruce Gretkowski. We were loaded with NFL talent.
We had the talent, bro. Jalen Parmelee.
Parmelee?
I was in the slot?
I was in the slot.
Why were we arguing about MAAC teams on this show a couple years ago? It might have been when Notre Dame almost lost to Toledo in 2021. I was like, hey, Toledo's got some dudes. They put dudes in the NFL.
We got dudes. I would argue we are a top 50 program in the last 40 years.
Put it on the poll, please. Is Toledo a top 50 program in the last 40 years? And play the Mike Tyson sound, please.
Mike, were you really sick this week? What was the problem? I broke my back. What do you mean by that? My back is broken. A vertebrae or what portion? Spinal.
Yes.
I understand Mike Tyson.
I can't be standing there then.
I wanted to ask David Sampson something here based on what it is that the Jets are doing with their GM search, where they're going to a firm that employs Rick Spielman and Mike Tannenbaum, two failed Dolphin general managers, to get their new general manager. NFL Jets general manager on top of that. Yeah, Tannenbaum is both, right? A failed Dolphin general manager.
Actually, he was more successful with the Jets, but Spielman also a failed Dolphin general manager. What do you make of just the general incestuousness of continuing to go over and over to get your expertise from the same people?
Owners like comfort. It's like comfort food. They go back to people, and that's the talk of Belichick going back to some of his old assistant coaches. It's a weird thing that owners have when there's openings. They want to bring people back.
Think about George Steinbrenner with Billy Martin, old reference, but you bring them back again and again, and owners have always been like that, and everybody's smart. They're starting these consulting companies. where you get paid to perform a job that anyone could do without being paid to do it.
So when you're being paid to sell a team, if you want to sell a team, you raise your hand and say you're selling a team and people come to you. When you've got an opening for GM, what they're saying is we can identify kids in a way that you can't, but that's not how it works actually.
They can't, right? They don't have... Those two people proved to me over many years that they don't have a special ability to find talent.
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