Tanya Mosley
Appearances
Consider This from NPR
The Trump administration's attacks on oversight of executive power
This is Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. You'll see your favorite actors, directors, and comedians on late-night TV shows or YouTube. But what you get with Fresh Air is a deep dive. Spend some quality time with people like Billie Eilish, Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert, and so many more. We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else.
Consider This from NPR
The Trump administration's attacks on oversight of executive power
Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.
Consider This from NPR
Tariffs will boost prices a lot — here's how much
This is Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. You'll see your favorite actors, directors, and comedians on late-night TV shows or YouTube. But what you get with Fresh Air is a deep dive. Spend some quality time with people like Billie Eilish, Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert, and so many more. We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else.
Consider This from NPR
Tariffs will boost prices a lot — here's how much
Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.
Consider This from NPR
Who loses when Trump cuts funding to universities?
This is Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. You'll see your favorite actors, directors, and comedians on late-night TV shows or YouTube. But what you get with Fresh Air is a deep dive. Spend some quality time with people like Billie Eilish, Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert, and so many more. We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else.
Consider This from NPR
Who loses when Trump cuts funding to universities?
Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.
Consider This from NPR
Measles is spreading. Are you safe?
This is Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. You'll see your favorite actors, directors, and comedians on late night TV shows or YouTube. But what you get with Fresh Air is a deep dive. Spend some quality time with people like Billie Eilish, Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert, and so many more. We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else.
Consider This from NPR
Measles is spreading. Are you safe?
Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.
Consider This from NPR
What will it take to get measles under control?
This is Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. You'll see your favorite actors, directors, and comedians on late-night TV shows or YouTube. But what you get with Fresh Air is a deep dive. Spend some quality time with people like Billie Eilish, Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert, and so many more. We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else.
Consider This from NPR
What will it take to get measles under control?
Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.
Consider This from NPR
Trump is betting the economy on his tariff theory
This is Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. You'll see your favorite actors, directors and comedians on late night TV shows or YouTube. But what you get with Fresh Air is a deep dive. Spend some quality time with people like Billie Eilish, Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert and so many more. We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else.
Consider This from NPR
Trump is betting the economy on his tariff theory
Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.
Consider This from NPR
The Southeastern U.S. faces a future with more wildfires
This is Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. You'll see your favorite actors, directors, and comedians on late night TV shows or YouTube. But what you get with Fresh Air is a deep dive. Spend some quality time with people like Billie Eilish, Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert, and so many more. We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else.
Consider This from NPR
The Southeastern U.S. faces a future with more wildfires
Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.
Consider This from NPR
Drowning in tariffs, American businesses try to stay afloat
This is Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. You'll see your favorite actors, directors, and comedians on late night TV shows or YouTube. But what you get with Fresh Air is a deep dive. Spend some quality time with people like Billie Eilish, Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert, and so many more. We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else.
Consider This from NPR
Drowning in tariffs, American businesses try to stay afloat
Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.
Consider This from NPR
How Deportations Work
This is Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. You'll see your favorite actors, directors, and comedians on late night TV shows or YouTube. But what you get with Fresh Air is a deep dive. Spend some quality time with people like Billie Eilish, Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert, and so many more. We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else.
Consider This from NPR
Trump says the economy is in 'transition.' What comes after?
This is Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. You'll see your favorite actors, directors, and comedians on late-night TV shows or YouTube. But what you get with Fresh Air is a deep dive. Spend some quality time with people like Billie Eilish, Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert, and so many more. We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else.
Consider This from NPR
Trump says the economy is in 'transition.' What comes after?
Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.
Consider This from NPR
Trump says the economy is in 'transition.' What comes after?
Are you expecting a recession this year?
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Dr. Karen Guzzo is a sociologist and fertility expert serving as the director of the Carolina Population Center and a professor of sociology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. And Lisa Hagan is a reporter for NPR who has been covering the pro-natal movement and attended last month's second annual NatalCon conference in Austin. Lisa Hagan and Karen Guzzo, welcome to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
What do the Collins think about IVF? Did Simone Collins actually have her children through IVF? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
I think what's so interesting about what you all are sharing is that there is like no one main pathway to... Dr. Guzzo, can you talk a little bit about the three segments of the pronatalist movement?
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. Have more babies or civilization dies. That's the rallying cry behind a once fringe ideology that has made its way into the mainstream. Pro-natalism has been in the news lately, with Trump policies underway to increase birth rates by giving away a $5,000 baby bonus for parents and a National Medal of Motherhood for moms who have six or more children.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Our guests today are NPR reporter Lisa Hagan and sociologist Dr. Karen Guzzo. We'll continue our conversation about the resurgence of the pro-natalist movement after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Thanks for having me. Happy to be here. Well, I want to start with you, Lisa, and I want you to take us inside of this conference that you attended in Austin. First off, kind of set the scene for us. How big was it and how would you describe this overarching message you heard this year?
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
When we look at actual demographic data, how significant is immigration in offsetting the birth decline in the U.S. compared to boosting?
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
You know, I know historically, most people know and understand that particularly when it comes to Black people, descendants of enslaved Americans, we've kind of been absent from this more modern day conversation. We know the history where eugenicists use this pseudoscientific language to justify racial segregation, for instance, but...
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
You've talked about, Dr. Guzzo, more recent efforts underway like limiting welfare and the whole idea of the welfare mom. Can you talk about that a little bit as it relates to this idea about who should be a part of this pro-natalist movement and who's actually not?
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Oh, well, that's a question I have for you, Dr. Guzzo. Like, do incentives work? I mean, $5,000 in this economy to have a baby? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
You mentioned how these types of ideas do not work. But I was just wondering in other places and other countries, because I know that Hungary and Russia, I think even Singapore have introduced these kinds of incentives. They like tax breaks and housing benefits. I think that Hungary even offers free fertility treatments. How effective are those types of measures?
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Sweden, I was reading about, has a high female workforce participation rate. rate. They also provide robust childcare and parental leave. They tend to have higher fertility than countries where women have fewer rights. What can we learn from a place like Sweden?
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guests are NPR reporter Lisa Hagen and demographer, sociologist and fertility expert Dr. Karen Guzzo. We're talking about the resurgence of the pro-natalist movement. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
I'm just curious, what was the breakdown of men versus women at NatalCon?
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
The last time I had an infant was 12 years ago. And the price of affordable child care was so high that really it was a matter for many families on whether to work or not, because many families will spend an entire income or close to it just on child care. It costs as much or more as rent or mortgage.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Elon Musk has been evangelizing. He's been sending these dire warnings that unless the low birth rate changes, civilization will disappear. He's framing it as the biggest threat to civilization. What do you make, Dr. Guzzo, of tech leaders kind of stepping in? I mean, some techno-pronatalists also argue that a bigger population means like more geniuses and innovation.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Elon Musk has a lot of kids, but he definitely is not a traditional family man. That's something that's also been discussed in thinking about traditional family, lots of kids, the nuclear family, and just this need to have more children.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Dr. Guzzo, one of the things I'm trying to reconcile, are the thoughts in the past around pronatalism real? along with today's action. So for instance, during the Cold War, population control was seen as a kind of master key. So American elites actually believed population growth caused poverty and that poverty then turned into communism. How does this square with today's movement?
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Lisa, I was just wondering, you mentioned how Vice President J.D. Vance has kind of echoed these worries. The Trump's White House has been asking for suggestions from married couples to boost birth rates. How empowered does the movement feel with perceived allies in government that all of this will turn into concrete policies? Did they talk about this at all during the conference?
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
What kinds of policies or incentives were seriously being discussed at NATO-Con? Now that there is a real understanding and almost a wind in this movement's sails by the Trump administration's priorities with pro-natalism.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Lisa Hagen and Dr. Karen Guzzo, thank you so much. Thanks for having us.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Dr. Karen Guzzo is a demographer, sociologist, and fertility expert. And Lisa Hagen is a reporter for NPR. Coming up, guest critic Martin Johnson reviews a new jazz album from Wilco guitarist Nels Klein. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Guitarist Nels Klein is one of the most versatile players on the music scene today. He's a heavyweight among indie rockers and well-known in both mainstream and avant-garde jazz circles, but he's probably best known as a member of Wilco. He joined that band 20 years ago, and he's continued to add muscular grit and keening depth to the band's sound.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Klein's new recording is named after his new group, Concentric Quartet. But in many ways, the new album sounds like a retrospective of Klein's diverse musical activities. Guest critic Martin Johnson has this review.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Guest jazz critic Martin Johnson writes about jazz for the Wall Street Journal and Downbeat. He reviewed the new album by Nils Klein called Concentric Quartet. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, Terry Gross pays tribute to her late husband, Grammy award-winning jazz critic Francis Davis, who died on April 14th.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Terry is going to talk about him, read excerpts of his award-winning writing, and play some of the music he wrote about. I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Our senior producer today is Teresa Madden. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Okay, we're going to delve into some of those more granular details in a moment. But before we get to that, I want to go to you, Dr. Guzzo, to talk about the legitimacy of the problem that they're trying to solve. You're a demographer who studies when and why people have children.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Remind us of some of the reasons, particularly here in our country, that we are actually seeing a decline in birth rates.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Pronatalists warn of an apocalyptic future, that if birth rates in the U.S. keep falling, we might be headed towards economic collapse, even extinction. They're pushing ideas like genetic engineering, limiting access to contraceptives, and the Great Replacement Conspiracy Theory, which believes that there is a plot to replace white populations with non-white immigrants.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Yeah, I was reading how now more women over 40 are having children up against the steep decline in teen pregnancies. But there's also an economic part to this, right, Dr. Guzzo? Like about 20 years ago, especially with the economic collapse around 2008, 2009, that we started to see a decline in having babies. And that was very much tied to the way of life, people's ability to care for children.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Lisa, in your reporting, you featured a popular couple that has kind of been like rock stars in this movement, the Collins. They describe themselves as techno-Puritans. Who are they and how many children do they have and kind of what's their overarching messaging?
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
She dresses like a Puritan. She dresses like from another era, another time.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
One of the more well-known faces of the movement is Elon Musk, who reportedly has at least 14 biological children with several different women, and has called the world's population decline the greatest threat to humanity. But critics argue that this movement isn't solely about increasing birth rates. It's about who gets to reproduce, under what terms, and at what cost.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
It's really interesting where they sit politically. You mentioned that they don't necessarily consider themselves liberal, but they don't consider themselves on the far right. And they also have told you that they are pushing it back against some of those racist ideologies that historically have been a part of the pro-natalist movement. You all...
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
talked a little bit about how white nationalists are drawn to their podcast. And you actually talked to Malcolm Collins about this at the Freedom Economy Conference. Let's listen to what he had to say to you about racists and white nationalists who are drawn to the pro-natalist movement and how he's interacted with them.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
They argue that this movement ignores the skyrocketing price of child care in our country, our broken parental leave systems, and a woman's autonomy over her own body. Well, today we're joined by two people whose work explores this movement and the motivations behind it.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
That was Malcolm Collins, a leader in the pro-natalist movement, talking last year to one of my guests, Lisa Hagan. And Lisa, I want to point out that, I mean, of course, not all pro-natalist arguments are inherently racist, but there is a clear and well-documented overlap between the rhetoric that they used and racist, xenophobic, and nationalist ideologies there.
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
How much of that did you encounter during your reporting at this conference or more generally as you kind of like sleuth online and look at these worlds?
Fresh Air
Baby Bonuses, Trad Wives & The Pronatalist Movement
Dr. Guzzo, I know that you've also been following the different factions of this movement, and you've talked about some of the more religious factions against IVF and abortion. I'm thinking about some of the groups that might make up kind of the religious faction of the pro-natalist movement.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
I was thinking about, you know, Many employers are now pushing their employees to come back to work. During the pandemic, folks were working from home. There is also like this tension here because it feels kind of hostile that so many workplaces are demanding that we go back into the office. But is there a tradeoff for that, a benefit to that, to actually be in the office?
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
What does the data say about productivity, but not just that, maybe lessening the loneliness meter scale for us as individuals?
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
He's also the author of the books Hitmakers and On Work, Money, Meaning, Identity, and the host of the podcast Plain English. His new book, Abundance, co-authored with Ezra Klein, comes out in March. Derek Thompson, welcome to Fresh Air, and I'm excited to talk with you again.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
My guest today is Atlantic staff writer Derek Thompson, and we're talking about his February cover story, The Antisocial Century. We'll be right back in just a few. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
Okay, Derek, I think a lot of us would assume that what you saw today when you were out to dinner with your family, is just a holdover of the pandemic. But you actually trace this isolation even further back. What did you find?
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
OK, so I was reading about how fewer Gen Z adults reported being involved in romantic relationships during their teenage years. What did you find in the research about this?
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
Did you find other factors aside from technology that might be causing this?
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
Is this what we call like the third place or the third space?
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
I mean, is there a through line then to sort of this disenfranchised male? You know, we talk about like the incels and some of those things that like we've really been having discourse about. This kind of delves into also our politics. But is there a through line that you see in the data there?
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
Thinking back to the little bit we were talking about regarding romantic relationships and young people, there was this article a few weeks ago in the Times about a woman who who was in a full-fledged relationship with chat GPT. And, you know, of course, that made me think about the movie Her from 2013, where Joaquin Phoenix's character was in love with an operating system.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
How are these AI companions maybe furthering this trend or stepping in to fill the void for people who are isolated?
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking with Atlantic staff writer Derek Thompson about his recent article for The Atlantic, The Antisocial Century. We'll continue our conversation after a break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
Okay, Derek, let's talk a little bit about political polarization. I love the subtitle of this section of your piece. It's called, This is Your Politics on Solitude. How has all of this isolation, how has it changed our politics?
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
You actually say that this kind of helps explain progressive stubborn inability to understand President Donald Trump's appeal. Say more about it.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
You know what's so interesting about what you're saying, too, is that I feel like we were having this conversation in 2016 when there was this indictment on elite in mainstream media that like somehow the mainstream media missed this Trump wave. And from 2016 to now 2025, I mean, we're still here with this baffled, like people are baffled by the phenomenon that you're talking about.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
Okay, Derek, when I hear you say this goes back 60 years, I'm just thinking the consequences then must be more profound than we realize. And technology is at the heart of it.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
Okay, Derek, short of some sort of apocalyptic ending of the internet that will force us to look up from our phones and at each other, what can we do to combat this?
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
Derek Thompson, I always really enjoy talking to you. Thank you so much.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
Derek Thompson is a staff writer with The Atlantic. His cover story is called The Antisocial Century. Coming up, our TV critic David Bianculli reviews the new documentary Without Arrows. It follows a Lakota family over the course of 13 years. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
A new entry in the PBS Independent Lens series of documentary films is called Without Arrows. It's about Delwin Fittler Jr., a Native American member of the Lakota Sioux tribe who returns home after years in Philadelphia to visit his family on their South Dakota reservation. The filmmakers of Without Arrows accompanied Delwin on his journey and kept revisiting him over more than a decade.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
David Bianculli is professor of television studies at Rowan University. He reviewed Without Arrows, part of the Independent Lens series, now streaming on PBS. On the next Fresh Air, how Louis Armstrong became the first black pop star and musician who provided the foundational language of improvisation. We talk with Ricky Riccardi, author of Stomp Off, Let's Go! The Early Years of Louis Armstrong.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Special thanks to Jose Llanes and Connor Anderson from WDET for additional engineering help.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Annemarie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challoner, Susan Nakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.B. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
Your article makes a distinction between solitude and loneliness. And this was probably, for me, the most profound part of your piece because we actually are under this assumption that all of this me time, I think a lot of us, I should say, not everyone, but that this me time is good for us.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
It's like a form of self-care because it's like as if the world is so overstimulating that we need all of this time alone.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. Recently, my guest, writer Derek Thompson, took his family out to dinner and noticed that while the restaurant was bustling, he and his family were the only people actually sitting down to eat. Every few minutes, a flurry of people would walk in, grab bags of food, and walk out.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
That sociologist that you talked to that told you like loneliness is a healthy response and that it is the thing that pushes us off the couch out into the world. That kind of makes it sound like our phones might actually be blocking us from feeling that natural instinct. But yet people feel like they're being very social by being on their phones and being on social media sites and stuff.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
You know, I've been thinking about social media videos of people who record themselves dancing or, you know, talking or sometimes people are pouring their hearts out, you know, into, you know, they have videos on TikTok and stuff. And watching them though, like watching people dance, it feels like a party. I'm vibing off of their vibe. They seem happy. They're enjoying themselves.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
But then I think about everything that happens after they record themselves. You know, they turn off the camera. The music is off. They're all alone. They're literally standing in their living room. They're alone. And I feel this, especially when someone is pouring their heart out. They're crying into the camera. And then at the end, like they're going through the comments to get validation.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
The restaurant's bar counter had become, as he puts it, a silent depot for people to grab food to eat at home in solitude. In February's issue of The Atlantic, Thompson writes about the phenomenon he calls the antisocial century. More people are choosing isolation over hanging out with others, and we can't blame it all on COVID-19. This trend started before the pandemic.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
You're working out this theory that, I love how you put it, that we are donating our dopamine to our phones. Can you say more about that?
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
The problem is that humans by nature are social beings, and the consequences of isolation are stark. Our personalities are changing, as well as our politics and and our relationship to reality. Former Surgeon General Vivek Murthy said, Derek Thompson, is a writer for The Atlantic and the author of the Work in Progress newsletter.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
Yeah. You know, I talked with the comedian Roy Wood Jr. a few weeks ago, and he had this joke about the decline in the interaction between the store clerks because they're all automated now.
Fresh Air
This Anti-Social American Life
And I mean, what you're talking about here makes me think about that because that's a little bit of a dopamine hit when you have a fun interaction or a really nice conversation with the store clerk as she or he or, you know, as... is scanning your groceries. Those small interactions, from what I'm getting from you, are also really important things in our lives.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
She sits on the board of directors of the Innocence Center, a nonprofit law firm dedicated to freeing innocent people from prison. Yet she grapples with a question that continually follows her. How dare she live when Meredith is dead? Amanda Knox, welcome to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Our guest today is Amanda Knox. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Amanda, you wrote your first memoir, Waiting to be Heard, I think it was a year after you were released from prison. And you write that you thought it would be enough to set the record straight. Why hasn't it been enough? Oof.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Amanda, the slander charge that you're currently fighting actually stems from your false accusation during your interrogation against Lumumba that he was somehow involved in it. He was arrested but then released. But your defense has maintained that you were coerced, as you are telling us now. Just this past January, Italy's highest court upheld that slander conviction.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Is this something that you're going to keep fighting?
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Amanda, I want to talk a little bit about your time in prison because you talk quite extensively or you write quite extensively about it in great detail, including you're a celebrity in there. I mean, there were women in there. That's a word. I mean, just the reality of it was you were getting letters and gifts and others were not getting those things. You also were educated.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
You were a college student. How did you end up using that to survive in prison? But also, I mean, it sounded like you were also making yourself of use there.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Where were they coming from? Were they from nearby countries or the United States or what?
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
You know, this makes me think about, I mean, when you arrived in Italy, you're 20 years old. You're just coming into your femininity, your sexuality, who you are as a woman, you and Raphael's relationship. You know, you have just gotten together a week prior and And you have all of these labels put on you on who you are as a sexual being.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
I thought it was really, really interesting that you talked about how you came fully into your self-awareness of your body and your sexuality in prison. Yes.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Let's take a short break, Amanda. If you're just joining us, my guest is Amanda Knox. She's written a new memoir titled Free, My Search for Meaning. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
You write in the book about your life as a child, growing up in the Pacific Northwest, in the Seattle area, roaming free in the wilderness and being in the woods exploring. You're just kind of like a, it sounds like an outdoor kid, you know, you just like to explore. And the confines of prison, of course, is the opposite of that. What is your relationship to space now outside of prison?
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
And I'm also thinking about just even... being in your childhood room after four years, you know, many, many years of dealing with something and becoming a whole different person, one of the things you do in the book is you sort of break yourself up into different people.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
It's like the Amanda before you arrived in Italy, the woman that I think you call Foxy Noxy, like your doppelganger, not even you. And then the woman that you were post, once you came home, right? Thank you.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
You and Merida didn't know each other very well, did you? You all were brought together in Perugia through a study abroad program. What was your friendship like?
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And today my guest is Amanda Knox.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Tomorrow on Fresh Air, Syria may be on the verge of a new era of unity, or it may descend into anarchy, and the outcome will affect the Middle East and the U.S. Syria's transitional president founded the Syrian branch of al-Qaeda, but he's now preaching inclusivity. We'll talk with Robert Wirth of The Atlantic about his reporting from Syria. I hope you can join us.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakunde, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Yeah, I mean, there is that sentiment out there that because Meredith is the one who lost her life, maybe you don't have the right, at least publicly anyway, to mourn your own experience. And I was wondering, have you or do you or did you ever struggle with that feeling yourself?
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Dubbing her the angel face with the icy blue eyes. Knox was catapulted into global infamy after being convicted and later acquitted for the 2007 murder of her British roommate, Meredith Kircher. She's become a symbol, though few still to this day can agree on what she represents.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
To refresh people's memories, you were a 20-year-old college student studying abroad in Perugia, Italy, when you and your then-boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, whom you'd known for a week before Meredith Kircher's murder. You both were accused and later tried and convicted, and the both of you all spent four years together. in an Italian prison before being acquitted on appeal in 2011.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
And then two years later, both of you were retried and then definitively acquitted in 2015. And right now, you're still fighting a slander case, which we'll get to a little bit later. But you wanted to reach out to the prosecutor in this case. You all became pen pals, more or less, and ultimately met
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
This man was instrumental in spreading the false narrative about you and was ultimately instrumental in your conviction. How did it come to be and why was it important for you to connect with him, to convince him of your innocence?
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
To some, she was an innocent woman, unjustly imprisoned, a cautionary tale of a young student who became trapped by Italy's legal system. To others, she was a tabloid fascination, her every expression scrutinized and reinterpreted. In the years since her exoneration and return to the United States, Knox has worked to reclaim her narrative.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Like, I did have that... Amanda, what kinds of things did you write to him to try to show and prove your humanity?
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
In her first book, Waiting to be Heard, she focused on the details of her conviction. Her latest memoir, Free, My Search for Meaning, goes beyond the events of her trial and imprisonment and explores the realities of reintegrating into society and rebuilding a life. Wrongful convictions have become part of Knox's life's work.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Amanda, you have learned, as you've been talking about over the years, through your criminal justice reform work, a lot of things about the system, but also just how common your interrogation experience is and was. You spent more than 50 hours in a room, questioned in Italian.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Those who have never experienced interrogation, I mean, will likely never quite understand it, how one can actually say things that they Absolutely. First of all, it was the worst experience of my life, worse than being convicted, was being in that interrogation room.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
And was this all in Italian? Were you all speaking? All in Italian. And how good would you describe your Italian at that time?
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
It's so interesting because I think that most of us don't know that history. And so when it shows up in the film, it makes sense when you go back and you read the history, which I did because I didn't know it going into this film. But I had to learn it afterwards. There's also the Chinese-American store owners who, in the film... operate these two grocery stores.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
So one is in the black part of town, and then one is in the white zone. And they kind of exist in like this cultural limbo.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
Right. I mean, they're never fully kind of accepted in white or black communities, but more so it feels like in black communities. I had a friend who saw the movie and said, like, did this really happen? When did you learn about that history?
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
Our guest today is filmmaker Ryan Coogler. We'll be back right after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
I wouldn't state that hard. Ryan Coogler says Sinners is also a tribute to his late Uncle James, who first introduced him to the blues. When he was a kid, Coogler would soak up his uncle's stories about Mississippi as old Delta Blues records spun in the background.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
The technical wow factor to the way the images popped is really striking. Specifically for me, the cotton field driving scenes, were those real cotton fields?
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
Did you ever have a moment in a cotton field in the making of this?
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
I'm really struck by what you said that, you know, the blues connected people to their humanity. It reminded them that they were human. And blues serves really as the sound and the soul of this film. Your relationship with the blues, you talk about your Uncle James. What music did he play around you? What was he into?
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
You being a kid of the 80s and the 90s, what was it like for you to sit at his knee and listen to that music? Did you appreciate it at that young age?
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
Coogler's debut into the film world happened in 2013 with Fruitvale Station, which chronicled the final hours of Oscar Grant, a young black man killed by police in Oakland. Since then, he's become the highest grossing Black filmmaker in history and the youngest director to helm a billion dollar movie with Black Panther.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
How did legendary blues guitarist Buddy Guy become part of this project? It was so cool to see him. That was a really cool cameo.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
He decided to press pause on making Black Panther 3 to take the risk of making Sinners. Ryan Coogler, welcome to Fresh Air and congrats on this film. I have seen it twice and I enjoyed it very much.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker Ryan Coogler. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
There is this moment when one of the twins, he says something like, it's better to deal with the devil you know. And he's referring to having lived in Chicago and up north and gone all across the world, but now he's back in Mississippi. And you being a guy who was born and raised on the West Coast in Oakland, your accent gives it away. What did you learn growing up about...
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
Kind of those myths, like you talk about the shame a little bit, but those myths that somehow the West or the North or the East was better than the South.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
You did not grow up with that myth that where you are is better than the South.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
So, Ryan, you put Black Panther 3 on hold. That is a billion-dollar franchise, as I mentioned, to make this film in a moment when it seems like Hollywood is kind of playing it safe to sequels and remakes. What made you say, this is the story I have to tell now? And even if it means stepping away from the success of something like a Marvel machine, did that feel like a risk?
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
You saw Boys in the Hood at four years old?
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
Five years old in the theater watching Boys in the Hood. Do you remember the scenes that like were seared into your brain that stuck with you? Because that's a real powerful movie for a five-year-old.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
You noted in the moment that like, wow, my dad is sitting in that same row. Absolutely, man.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
You and Michael B. Jordan, you guys have worked on Fruitvale Station and Creed, Blank Panther and now Sinners. In Sinners, he plays twin brothers. Why twins?
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
So you saw that intimacy of twins up close.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
So I was talking to filmmaker Rommel Ross a few months ago about his basketball career. Oh, yeah, Rommel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He relayed how hard it was for him because, you know, he played basketball from the time he was a kid all the way through college. And then he got an injury. And it took him a long time to, like, sit in this role as filmmaker. And you have a similar story.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
You played football in college. You suffered a shoulder injury. What was that process of transition like for you, especially when there's so much of your identity tied to, like, being a ballplayer?
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
To be a voice of a generation, like one of the voices.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
I want to end asking you about legacy because I heard there was a bidding war over Sinners. And part of the deal was that you'd retain Final Cut and you'd get share of the theatrical opening and eventually own the film outright after 25 years, which I felt like... That's such a boss move. Is that all right, first off? And why was it important for you?
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And my guest today is filmmaker Ryan Coogler. You probably know his name as the director of Fruitvale Station, Creed, and both Black Panther films. Well, his new film is called Sinners, and it hit theaters just last week. It delves into horror with a genre-bending thriller set in 1930s Mississippi.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
Well, I feel like owning Sinners outright after 25 years, I mean, it is a long play. And I just wonder what you envision for this story over that kind of timeline. But is it something that you imagine expanding or revisiting or building upon in the future?
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
Ryan Coogler, this has been such a pleasure to be in conversation with you. Thank you so much for this. And thank you for this film.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
Ryan Coogler's new film Sinners is now in theaters. After a short break, Carolina Miranda reviews a new novel by Leila Lalami. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
In her new novel, The Dream Hotel, author Leila Lalami plunges us into the story of a woman who is imprisoned solely on the basis that she might commit a crime. Lalami, who was born in Morocco and is now based in Los Angeles, won the American Book Award for her 2014 historical novel, The Moors Account. It was also a finalist for Pulitzer Prize.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
Contributor Carolina Miranda reviews Lalami's novel and the disquieting ways it speaks to our text-saturated lives.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
Tomorrow on Fresh Air, journalist Paul Tuff on the mystery of ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. While millions of Americans have the diagnosis and are treated with stimulants, there is no scientific consensus about the biological roots of the condition and some medical concerns about common treatments. I hope you can join us.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
When it comes to a Marvel film, right.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Bea Chaloner, Susan Nakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley. Thank you.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
You said this particular film, Sinners, was like it was on your heart to do. And I want you to take us back to when that idea really clicked for you that not only the creation of a story like this, but that the story didn't have to live in one genre or even one reality because you're blending so much here. I mean, you're blending history, historical drama, action, history.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
all against the backdrop of 1930s Mississippi. What made you realize that this mix was necessary to fully bring this story to life?
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
That's so interesting because I really feel it almost with every single character in this film. I want to talk to you in a minute about how you complicate like villains, but the use of vampires in particular to like really articulate the story. One of the vampires says in the film, I want your stories and I want your songs. And that line is very important.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
The story follows twin brothers, Smoke and Stack, both played by Michael B. Jordan. After surviving the trenches of World War I and navigating Chicago's criminal underworld, the brothers return home to Mississippi, hoping to start fresh by opening a juke joint. But peace does not last long.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
Yes. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Right. It's important. That's such an important line because it brings into focus that these vampires are like draining more than blood. They're draining culture and identity, but they're also offering something back like in replacement of that. Like, how did you land on using vampires as a metaphor for that kind of extraction?
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
But I think it's super fascinating, though, that like when I asked you the question about like what drew you to this story and why you had to tell this story, you said immediately like my life experience is the reason why I wanted to tell this story. What drew you to a vampire story?
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
Instead, they're met by supernatural forces, vampires, who act as metaphors for oppression, exploitation, and systems that feed on Black life, body, and spirit. I only ever heard stories.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
Like this crossroads, like the devil, the deal with the devil kind of thing. Yes.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
Jack O'Connell, who plays Rimmick, the Irish vampire antagonist, he is relatable kind of in the same way that I'm thinking about Killmonger and Black Panther was relatable. Like in many ways, saying kind of speaking the truth, speaking the truth to systems of oppression. What draws you to creating antagonists who are in many ways right about the things that they know?
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
It's not such a straight line, good guy, bad guy. Each one is complicated.
Fresh Air
Ryan Coogler Paid A Steep Price For The Films He Made
It is scarier. Yes, say more about that.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
You mentioned your co-star, Jamie Lee Curtis. She plays an older, former showgirl who now works in the casino as a waitress. And You guys are really good friends. And Jamie actually told you that she took this role because of you. When did you learn that?
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Because we should say this woman, the character has like a very, very orange tan.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
You know, Pamela, I'm so fascinated by your journey over the last few years because before this role in The Last Showgirl was presented to you, I read that you had all but moved on from Hollywood. You actually looked at this script, though, and you said, I'm the only one that can do this.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Our guest today is Pamela Anderson. We're talking about her new movie, The Last Showgirl. We'll continue after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
You seem to be surprised sometimes that you take up such big space in the public's imagination, that a Jamie Lee Curtis would take a role for a chance to work with you. I've heard you talk about how you're surprised that Beyonce, who paid tribute to you, would even know who you are.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
What makes you genuinely surprised by the love that people have for you, knowing and understand the level of your fame?
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
I'm curious about what you mean when you say that you've been playing characters in your personal life all of your life. What do you mean by that?
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Were you able to pinpoint like what was it about five years old that made you say, I'm going to present based on wherever I am and what I'm doing? Like, I'm not going to know who I am until I'm 50. That is an extraordinary thing at five years old to come to.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Pamela, the trauma that you experienced as a young person, you're a sex abuse survivor and you endured abuse during the formative years of your life. And you talk about this in great detail in the documentary. Were you ever hesitant about talking about it for the doc? And what made you decide that it was a very important element of your story to tell?
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Did you ever feel, I'm taking us back to the 90s, and, you know, while reading up on you, I'll be honest, Pamela, I was just sick watching credible news interviewers ask you questions about your anatomy during interviews. And you handled it with such grace. How did you do that? Did you go into those interviews with kind of an armor, knowing that those were the kind of questions that were coming?
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Because you seemed to be so quick with it and had such an ability to be able to just deflect from the energy that was being presented to you. And I'm just thinking about you as this person who has so many ideas, but that was not something that was afforded to you to talk about in the past.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
The favors that your sons were referring to, were those like cameo roles and stuff like that? Because you do have such a sense of humor, like you are in on the joke in many of the roles that you take on. I'm thinking about Borat, which I absolutely love that movie, I'll just say. But your ability to make fun of yourself.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
But your your character, Shelley, is part of this Vegas show called La Razzle Dazzle, which actually is based on this real show that was in Vegas for many decades called Jubilee. How would you describe that show?
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Broadway, like theater, is a very exhaustive process. Not only just having to perform, but like it's the performance physically too. It's pretty taxing.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley, and my guest today is Pamela Anderson. She stars in the new film The Last Showgirl, where she plays Shelly, a veteran performer from Las Vegas who learns that her show is shutting down after a 30-year run.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
The way you describe stepping out on stage in theater, it just sort of reminds me of how you described also your very first Playboy shoot. Because you've said from the very first snap of that camera, you describe yourself as feeling like you had broken free from something. It seems so counterintuitive to this shy, unsure girl that you also describe yourself as.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Can you say more about that feeling you felt in front of the camera when you first experienced it?
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Pamela Anderson. She stars in the new movie, The Last Showgirl, directed by Gia Coppola. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
When you were a kid growing up in Ladysmith, British Columbia, first off, can you describe Ladysmith for us, for folks who will never have a chance to go there?
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Yeah. You're glad you came home, but when you're growing up, you always wanted to leave. You wanted to escape. You wanted to see what the world had in store for you. How did Playboy even discover you?
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
I want to talk a little bit more about your parents because in the documentary, Pamela, A Love Story, we also learn a little bit more about their relationship and how it impacted you. In this clip I'm about to play, you're describing them. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
That was my guest, Pamela Anderson, in the Netflix documentary about her life describing her parents. How do you think your parents' relationship affected the way you saw love and marriage for yourself?
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
And they sound so much like you. You know, you mentioned how you've been married several times. I think there's something tremendously optimistic and brave to, number one, end a relationship that's no longer working, but also, number two, feel that it's possible to experience real love again. And so when I meet people who have been married multiple times, that's kind of what I'm thinking about.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
You know, the public's fixation on your love and sex life, it really picked up in the 90s with this video of you and your then-husband, rocker Tommy Lee, that was stolen. It was a sex tape, and this was tremendously painful for you.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
I want to put this time period in perspective because this was the beginning of the internet, and you sued the video distribution company that posted that video, but then you If I'm correct, you backed off because you were afraid of the stress that it would put on you. You were pregnant at the time. I am really sorry that this happened to you.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Pamela Anderson. She stars in the new movie, The Last Showgirl, directed by Gia Coppola. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Do you ever think about all of the scripts that never made their way to you? Because I'm just thinking about that agent who decided right away that you weren't for the last show, girl, you know?
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
It's not the same thing, but I'm very fascinated with your decision not to wear makeup. How much of that decision was part of this journey that you're on to get closer to who you are outside of the persona?
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Yeah. You mentioned you met with those original showgirls. What did they teach you about their experiences? What were some of the stories that they shared with you that really stuck with you as you embodied this character?
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Do you think you would have been able to make that decision when you were younger?
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Pamela Anderson, this was such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Pamela Anderson's new film, The Last Showgirl, is now in theaters. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, Bloomberg reporter Zeke Fox. His book, Number Go Up, is a gripping account of some of the colorful scams and characters in the world of cryptocurrency.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
He'll talk about what Donald Trump's new embrace of crypto will mean for financial regulation and the new Trump family crypto business, World Liberty Financial. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
At 57, Shelley must grapple with the sacrifices she's made in her personal life for the benefit of her career, including her relationship with her daughter, played by Billie Lourd. The Last Showgirl was directed by Gia Coppola and also stars Jamie Lee Curtis, who is almost unrecognizable as a former showgirl and Shelley's best friend.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
That vision of who these women could become after this show is over is really like at the heart of this story because we're watching as your character really comes to grips with the fact that it's the end. As you said, she's so proud of her work, just like the real women that you met with. She talks about like she makes a point, for instance, that these costumes were designed by Bob Mackie.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
What they're doing is really highbrow. And it was like the hot ticket on the Vegas Strip when she performed in front of sold out crowds. Times have changed, though, and I want to play a pivotal scene that really speaks to this.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Your character is having dinner with some of the other dancers when the producer of the show, Eddie, who is played by Dave Bautista, breaks the news that the show is closing and will be replaced by this burlesque circus show. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
What is wrong with you? That was from the new movie, The Last Showgirl. That was Jamie Lee Curtis responding to your character, Pamela. And there's the moment where she's forced to think about who she will be after the show is over, after this thing that is defined her life is gone. You mentioned how there are parallels to your life.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Your life is not exact to this character, but the defining of who you really are is something you've had to do because for so long you were enshrined in the 90s, the playboy, the Baywatch Pamela. So much so that this person who was kind of representing you, I guess they were an agent and didn't even bother to show you the script. What's the story behind that?
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Pamela Anderson became a pop culture phenomenon in the 1980s and 90s. The blockbuster television series Baywatch made her a household name, and the show itself was at one time the most-watched series in the world with over a billion viewers each week, making Anderson the highest-paid actress on television at the time.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
You know, that story you just told me about jumping into the pool for the role and saying like, I'm shedding my past. Was there ever a moment where you were fighting your past, where you were trying to present yourself as new and it wasn't working?
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
Pamela, I want to talk a little bit more about this role because the director, Gia Coppola, said she knew you were the one for the role after watching you in this documentary about your life for Netflix that your son Brandon produced.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
International distributors of the show even enacted a Pamela Claus in their contracts, agreeing to purchase only episodes that she was in.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
And we are watching your character grappling with the ramifications of her decision to put her career above everything else, including her relationship with her daughter Hannah, which is played by Billy Lord. Your character in this movie did not raise her daughter full time because the demands of her work was the priority.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
As a working mother, I think about my kids all the time in the future, how they will view the decisions that I make now that will impact the relationship that we have when we're adults. And so what is so moving for me about your story, Pamela, is that your son, Brandon, not only made sure that
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
that we saw this tender and more expansive view of who you were, but he also was instrumental in making certain that you received this script that Gia Coppola had thought you were perfect for. Your son is part of your comeback.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
But throughout the 2000s, Anderson struggled to make a name for herself outside of that 90s persona until the opportunity for reinvention came with her Broadway debut in 2022 as Roxy Hart in Chicago and the Netflix documentary Pamela, A Love Story, which is a tender and intimate portrait of her life produced by her son Brandon. Pamela Anderson, welcome to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
how does it feel to know that your children see you they seem to see the totality of who you are it's sort of a testament to you as a mother
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
The thing about the choices we make as mothers when our kids are growing up, we just don't know what the outcome will be. We just try to do the best that we can. But it must have been really hard for you to both be a mother, but also deal with this level of fame that you were in the 90s. I mean, because you weren't just famous, you were tabloid famous.
Fresh Air
Pamela Anderson Is Still Reinventing Herself
So that means that there were lots of stories that were out there about you that were beyond your control. How did you manage that as a mother while also shielding them from this public persona that was you?
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
You know, it also brings up for me, getting back to grading, we know that sometimes, depending on the subject, it really is subjective. It's the professor, their subjective view of what is being written and whether or not it's creative or not.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
Last fall, Hill actually used AI to run her life for a week, choosing what to wear, eat, and do each day to see what the outcome would be. Hill is also the author of Your Face Belongs to Us, a secretive startup's quest to end privacy as we know it. which investigates the rise of facial recognition tech and its disturbing implications for civil liberties. Kashmir Hill, welcome back to Fresh Air.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
But I mean, what you're saying could really destabilize or may have already destabilized that measure for grading, because if there is a paper that is grammatically correct and It sounds better, but it is less creative than someone who actually has sat down and written it themselves. There's just an unevenness there that could cause a bigger issue in the future, I'm guessing.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
You know, Kashmir, have we been here before? I mean, I'm thinking about how people were once afraid of what introducing calculators and computers would do, how they would basically erode critical thinking and problem-solving skills. Are there parallels to today's debates, or is what we're seeing like nothing we've ever seen before or experienced before?
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, we are talking to Kashmir Hill, a tech reporter at The New York Times, about the growing use of artificial intelligence in our daily lives, from the classroom to the workplace to our homes, and the deeper consequences that come with it. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
Your employer, The New York Times, actually has sued OpenAI and Microsoft for using articles to train large language models. The argument is that the paper's articles are one of the biggest sources for copyrighted text that OpenAI used to build ChatGPT. basically siphoning the newspaper's journalism.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
And I was wondering, in some respect, would all creators to some degree have some leg to stand on regarding the use of material under copyright?
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
Hi, Tanya. It's so nice to be here. You know, I was talking with a professor friend recently who said he really is in the middle of an existential crisis over AI. He teaches a writing intensive course called And he actually worries that with these tools, his job might not even exist in a few years.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
You know, I know you've seen those memes where people say that chat GPT is their bestie. It's always telling them exactly what they want to hear. It's always on their side. And then there's the element of these chatbots kind of being in concert with selling you things. You give an example.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
If you ask how vitamin C helps your skin and then ask about the best facial care routine, they will remember your interest in vitamin C and give you recommendations based on that. That seems kind of harmless, but are there more dangerous and more consequential examples? Like the article you wrote a few months ago about people falling in love with their chatbot.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
And so I wanted to know from you, can you give us a sense of just how widespread the use of this generative AI is, how it's become kind of a commonplace on college campuses and schools?
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
Right. I mean, I would imagine this is something that mental health professionals are really worried about. Have you had a chance to talk with any of them? What have they said about this?
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
I mean, we're also in the midst of a loneliness epidemic that really has spanned over the last few years. And so I'm also wondering, does it really also translate for the person using it that they have a connection?
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
Have you kept up with the woman? She was 28 years old. She had fallen in love with Leo, what she named the chat GPT. Have you kept up with her?
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
Our guest today is Kashmir Hill, a tech reporter for The New York Times. We'll be right back after a short break. This is Fresh Air. Let's get into the experiment that you did on your own life back in November. So you allowed your life for a week to be controlled by generative AI, and you had it decide just about everything, your meals for the day, your schedule, your shopping list, what to wear.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
Also, you uploaded your voice for the tool to clone, your likeness to create videos of you. And what was so interesting about this experiment to me, in addition to what you did, is that each of these AI tools you revealed has its own personality, and I'm putting that in air quotes. But how did those personalities show up when you inputted your requests?
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
I mean, what makes Claude special then? Because if it's saying no to that prompt, but all of the others are saying yes, what makes it stand apart in this field?
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
That's because there are words and phrases that are used so commonly that then they become part of the generative AI and it's spit back out.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
You had it plan out meals. I'll tell you, when I read that, I actually perked up like, oh, wait a minute. You know, because we have to choose what's for dinner every single day, seven days a week till we die. I mean, it's just something we always have to do. How did that feel to let it plan out your meals and grocery lists? And did it do a good job?
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Were there any tools that you felt like, oh, I could keep this in my life and it would improve my life?
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, we're talking to Kashmir Hill, a tech reporter for The New York Times, whose work focuses on privacy, surveillance, and the unintended consequences of technology. This is Fresh Air. You've also been writing about the broader concerns about how tech companies collect and use personal data.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
I just want to talk for a few moments about this settlement between the Federal Trade Commission and General Motors that bars GM for five years from sharing driver behavior. and location data with consumer reporting agencies. Can you remind us quickly what led to that case?
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
You know, this isn't surprising to me because people, especially students, always are trying to find a shortcut. Plagiarism has always been an issue in academia. But the stories we are hearing are kind of astounding. Yeah.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. We are living in the age of AI. And for a while now, chatbots have been helping students take notes during class and put together study guides, make outlines, and summarize novels and textbooks.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
Yeah, I wondered about that because that sets precedent, but GM isn't the only car manufacturer that provides this kind of technology.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
You know, Kashmir, you're deep into this world because of your job. You've done these experiments. You've talked to so many experts.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
After that article came out with your experiment back in the fall, you asked yourself, if you want to live in a world where we're using AI to make all of our decisions all the time, it almost feels like that's not even a question really because we are seeing it in real time. But I'm just wondering, what did you come to?
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
And how it will distort our ability to interact with each other.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
Kashmir Hill, thank you so much for your reporting and this conversation. Oh, thank you so much for this conversation. It was wonderful. Kashmir Hill is a tech reporter for The New York Times. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, the face behind some of TV and film's most complex characters, Walton Goggins.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
He joins us to reflect on this moment of rising popularity in his long career and how his unconventional childhood and experiences growing up in poverty have shaped his approach to acting, from Justified to The Righteous Gemstones. I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Thank you.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
Your latest piece kind of turns the tables because you took a look at how professors are using generative AI to teach, and what did you find?
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
But what happens when we start handing over even bigger tasks, like writing entire essays and work assignments, and asking AI to help us figure out what to eat and how to reply to emails? Well, professors say more and more students are using generative AI to write essays and complete homework assignments.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
Wow. Where is the learning in this? And I'm just wondering what professors are actually saying. I mean, I guess a big part of it, as you write in this article, seems to be a resource issue. Some professors are overworked. Others have multiple jobs. They might be an adjunct professor. But what are some of the things that they're sharing with you about why they're doing this?
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
One survey by Pew Research found that about a third of teens say they use it regularly to help with schoolwork. But it's not just students. Professors are also using generative AI to write quizzes, lesson plans, and even soften their feedback. One academic called ChatGPT said, a calculator on steroids. And universities are working to establish guidelines and using software to track AI use.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
Okay. I'm just curious. It's just dependent on the subject, I would guess, but is AI good at grading? Yeah.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
I actually even noticed that you asked professors in the comments section of this latest article to share what their universities are doing. But did you find any that are putting in effective guidelines, any institutions?
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
You know, one of the things that I keep hearing about is how hit or miss these detection tools are as a way to combat this. And one of your colleagues at The Times actually just wrote an article about how sometimes these detection tools get it wrong.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
There was a student in Houston who received a zero after a plagiarism detection tool identified her work as AI-generated, but she actually could prove that she wrote it herself. I was wondering, how common is this?
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
I think one of the questions you posed in your piece that kind of hung in the air was whether there is actually going to be a point in the foreseeable future where, say, much of the graduate student teaching assistants' jobs can be done by AI. And I wondered if that is also something that you've been talking with academics about. Yeah.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
But some students are now pushing back on that, saying that many of these detection tools are inaccurate. Well, today we're joined by New York Times tech reporter Kashmir Hill, who has been tracking how AI is reshaping daily life and the ethical gray zones it poses.
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Professors Are Using A.I., Too. Now What?
Getting back to what it is doing to us as individuals, have there been any changes? studies or research around what it might be doing to our critical thinking and problem-solving skills? Have we been using it long enough to know?
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The Looming TikTok Ban
Can I give you an example though? And then I decided to go on TikTok and I typed that question into the TikTok search engine. And there I got a slew of videos explaining exactly what I was asking for. Now, whether it was accurate, I mean, of course, that is another topic. But I think this is an example of why this platform is so attractive to users as a search engine and a place to get news.
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The Looming TikTok Ban
but it's also a cultural phenomenon. According to Pew Research, 60% of adults under 30 get their news from TikTok, and millions also use it to generate income by creating content and selling products. Our guest today, Associate Professor Alan Rosenstein, has closely tracked TikTok's legal battles.
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The Looming TikTok Ban
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking with law professor Alan Rosenstein about the impending ban of the social media app TikTok. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. Hi, it's Tanya Mosley.
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Before we get back to the show, the end of year is coming up and our Fresh Air team is looking back at all the fantastic interviews and reviews we've been able to bring you in 2024 because of your support. We had so many delightful, introspective, sometimes emotional, sometimes funny, always deeply human conversations with St.
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Vincent, Al Pacino, Bridget Everett, Pharrell Williams, Jeremy Strong, Ina Garten, and so many others. People you know well and hopefully new people you learned about for the first time on our show. We're able to do this because of your support to your local station or by joining NPR+.
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The Looming TikTok Ban
He's been thinking about the ramifications of a ban and recently penned an article for The Atlantic asking... What if free speech actually means banning TikTok? Our interview was recorded yesterday. Rosenstein is a law professor at the University of Minnesota Law School and a senior editor and research director at Lawfare. Alan Rosenstein, welcome to Fresh Air.
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The Looming TikTok Ban
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And today we're talking to Alan Rosenstein, an associate professor of law at the University of Minnesota Law School and a senior editor at Lawfare. Our interview was recorded yesterday. He's been writing for The Atlantic about the threat Congress says TikTok poses to national security and the decision to ban it.
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The Looming TikTok Ban
Last April, President Biden signed into law a bill requiring TikTok owned by the Chinese company ByteDance to be sold to a non-Chinese company. This morning, the Supreme Court agreed to take up an appeal from TikTok, and the court is scheduled to hear oral arguments on January 10th.
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The Looming TikTok Ban
You know, a big question for many people is what evidence does the government have that the Chinese government might be using our data in nefarious ways? Because we know that all of the tech companies have so much information about us. The difference is that this is a Chinese company. What evidence does our government have or has given?
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The Looming TikTok Ban
They seem to have been pretty tight-lipped on what information they have that could be of concern. Right.
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So there are so many legal moving parts to this case. Let's start with the Supreme Court. What happens now that TikTok has asked the court to intervene?
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Trump makes this point in that interview with Welker from NBC that others have also made, and that's that all of these tech companies also have unfettered access to our data. John Oliver pointed this out on his show last week. Tonight, let's listen.
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That was John Oliver on Last Week Tonight saying the thing that most people actually feel, that at this point, if you're on these apps, American-owned or not, they already have your data. And then there is the question of trust. When the government's not really telling us what they know, they're just saying, trust us that this is a threat to you.
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It really poses like a real issue for Americans when they're thinking about the potential for this app being banned.
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The Looming TikTok Ban
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking with law professor Alan Rosenstein about the impending ban of the social media app TikTok. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
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The Looming TikTok Ban
This is Fresh Air, and today we're talking to Alan Rosenstein, an associate professor of law at the University of Minnesota Law School and a senior editor at Lawfare. He's been writing for The Atlantic about the threat Congress says TikTok poses on national security and what a decision to ban it could mean for our First Amendment rights.
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For the average American, they may have a hard time understanding when we say that TikTok could be a threat to national security. If you're just a regular old content creator in middle America, or you're someone who just likes to look at TikTok before you go to bed each night, what are some of the concerns that you have?
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And you're already on all the apps already, and all the apps already have your information online. What are some of your concerns about what China could do with our data? I know that propaganda has also come up in many instances as far as TikTok scope and influence in our country. But what are some like real ways that they could be a threat?
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You mentioned how the concern over propaganda. data privacy is not necessarily with ordinary people's data, but users who have positions in the U.S. government. We've heard of the government banning the use of certain apps before. Why couldn't lawmakers just ban government employees from using TikTok instead of a full-on ban?
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Is there any indication that the Supreme Court might look at this case differently than Congress and the lower courts?
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You talked about a scenario where TikTok could take... US user data and put them on different servers. And there was this project that they announced some time ago called Project Texas in partnership with Oracle, where they said they would house US user data on US servers. How would that work? I guess the bigger question is, is it even possible for ByteDance to separate American user data?
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How important is the U.S. in the lifeblood of TikTok? I think it's interesting that TikTok is not even available to people in China. Yeah.
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Alan Rosenstein is an associate professor of law at the University of Minnesota Law School and senior editor at Lawfare. Our interview was recorded yesterday and this morning the Supreme Court announced it will take up TikTok's appeal to the law banning it and we'll hear oral arguments on January 10th. This is Fresh Air.
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This is Fresh Air. Our TV critic David Bianculli says it's almost impossible to summarize the year in television, given how many programs were produced and presented in 2024 by so many different networks and streaming services. But he thinks he's found a way, and here it is.
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You know, this is uncharted territory for Americans. I don't think that, you know, on a mass scale we've ever experienced a ban, something that's so popular, the potential for it to be taken away. App stores like Apple have already been put on notice that they could be fined for hosting TikTok after January 19th.
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David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, filmmaker and writer Miranda July talks about her novel All Fours, which is on many best-of-the-year book lists. It's about a 45-year-old married woman, her erotic affair, sexual fluidity, beginning perimenopause, and the related fears of losing her libido and getting older. I hope you can join us.
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To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our senior producer today is Sam Brigger.
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Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show.
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I want to talk a little bit about some of the scenarios if the January 19th ban stays in effect. People are just wondering, what does that mean? Does TikTok just go away then?
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I want to remind people that President-elect Trump actually got the ball rolling on all of this back in 2020. Can you remind us what he was pushing for back then when he was talking about imposing sanctions on TikTok and banning it back then?
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The Looming TikTok Ban
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. TikTok is in a race against time, a last-ditch effort to save itself from being banned in the U.S. on January 19th. The CEO of ByteDance, the company that owns the popular social platform, met with President-elect Donald Trump on Monday, just hours after asking the Supreme Court to take up the case and block the ban temporarily.
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The Looming TikTok Ban
As you mentioned, President-elect Trump now is for TikTok. He's been talking quite a bit about how TikTok has been instrumental in him winning the presidential election. I want to actually play a clip from his latest interview with NBC's Kristen Welker, where she references the ruling you mentioned earlier by the federal court last week that upholds the ban.
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The Looming TikTok Ban
That was President-elect Trump talking with NBC's Kristen Welker. Alan, Trump says several things here that I want to talk through. But I want to also know first, what power does he have at this moment that could determine the fate of TikTok?
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The Looming TikTok Ban
This morning, the court agreed to take up the appeal and hear oral arguments on January 10th before deciding whether to put the ban on hold. Now at issue is who owns TikTok. Lawmakers say the platform is a national security risk because it gives China unfettered access to our data and our attention.
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So he could direct the attorney general who will run the DOJ not to enforce the law.
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You gave three scenarios, but then there's the fourth scenario that I guess is kind of the unlikely scenario is that the president could push for a sale to an American company. But that has already been on the table for quite some time. And I found that interesting that Congress was mandating that because –
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The Looming TikTok Ban
Last April, Congress passed a law that mandates TikTok either be sold to a non-Chinese company or be banned. TikTok challenged that law, arguing that a ban infringes on America's First Amendment rights to free speech. Now, each month, about 170 million of us spend time on TikTok. And for those who aren't on it, yes, it's a place to watch silly pranks and dance challenges.
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China has a law that blocks Chinese technology from being sold to an American buyer, and the algorithm is the beating heart of TikTok. So how feasible would it ever be that this company without the algorithm is sold to an American company? Would it still have value if that scenario were to happen?
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The Gutting Of The Department Of Education
Her book, Dreamtown, Shaker Heights, and the Quest for Racial Equity, is an examination of the ideals and realities of racial integration in her hometown of Shaker Heights, Ohio. Our conversation was recorded yesterday. Laura Meckler, welcome to Fresh Air.
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Which was the New York Times, right, by Nicole Hannah-Jones. Exactly.
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In fact, it's banned on the state and local level in many places.
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Let's start with the backstory behind the letter that was sent this week to the 60 colleges by the Department of Education for alleged violations relating to anti-Semitic harassment. Remind us of what this stems from.
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The Gutting Of The Department Of Education
Our guest today is Washington Post national education writer Laura Meckler. On Tuesday, the Education Department announced it was firing more than 1,300 department workers. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
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Laura, I want to talk a little bit about some of the actions of DOGE. That's the Department of Government Efficiency run by Elon Musk. We see that dismantling the education department is part of a larger effort by DOGE to streamline the government.
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They've terminated something like 89 contracts with the Department of Education, which has had an immediate impact on the Institute of Education Sciences. What have you been following on that front?
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Why is Trump doing this? What is his vision for education?
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Mm-hmm. Can you remind us, as it pertains to the culture war issues and anything related to DEI, some of the origins of that? I know a few years ago, we were really talking about critical race theory within K-12 education. I've also heard President Trump talk about the mothers, the parents who have really been pushing like sort of this lobby to push against DEI in schools.
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Did this also really ramp up the conversation around school choice? I know that Trump has really talked about that. I know Secretary of Education Former Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos was a big proponent of school choice. Can you tell us a little bit more about Trump's vision as it relates to school choice?
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This sounds like it would be a big upset to the public school funding model.
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How does a school choice program impact rural areas where private schools are scarce?
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Can you talk about the impact of cuts to students with disabilities?
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The Gutting Of The Department Of Education
You've actually been reporting on how the Trump administration pulled last week. It's $400 million in federal grants and contracts from Columbia University. And just to remind people, Columbia was sort of the epicenter of the protests last spring. Can you tell us more about the accusations that happened there on that campus as well as the cuts to funding?
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Okay, let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, we're talking to national education writer Laura Meckler of the Washington Post about what it would mean in practice for the Department of Education to be dismantled. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
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One of the interesting things noted in Project 2025 is is to narrow institutional funding to historically black colleges and universities. One of the things President Trump was lauded for during his last presidency was making permanent an annual funding commitment of millions to HBCUs. It's just interesting to be at this point where there seems to be such a culture war over
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things that are very specific to people of color or other identities. Have you been watching or following this, and how likely could that commitment go away?
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Yeah, it just complicates the conversation because if you're asking an HBCU to be compliant against federal mandates around DEI, for example, and it's tied to funding, it just puts all educational institutions in a really precarious bind as it relates to the curriculum that they're setting forth for their students.
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I mean, $400 million sounds like an incredibly large amount and what that actually impacts.
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It just opens up a lot of things. I mean, an indigenous history class. I mean, America is, quote unquote, a melting pot of so much and the history is so rich. It just opens up everything.
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The Gutting Of The Department Of Education
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. The Department of Education is reportedly gutting its workforce. In addition to the more than 1,300 workers who were fired on Tuesday, more than 600 have accepted separation packages or were fired last month during their probationary period.
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You know, I'm just curious. I mean, calls for education reform, I mean, they've been happening really since even before the formation of the Department of Education. So this is not necessarily something that feels new or novel. I mean, there is a desire from both sides. It's bipartisan to really look and streamline and provide a better way for educational opportunity in the United States. And
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some see some of the roadblocks and the bureaucracy as a block to that.
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Laura Meckler, thank you so much for your reporting and your time. Thanks so much for having me. Laura Meckler is a national education writer for The Washington Post. Our conversation was recorded yesterday. Coming up, TV critic David Bianculli reviews A Thousand Blows, the new historical drama series from Peaky Blinders creator Stephen Knight. This is Fresh Air.
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Stephen Knight, creator of the long-running, much-acclaimed British TV series Peaky Blinders, has a new period drama that's come to the United States. It's called A Thousand Blows, and it's about tough yet vulnerable characters trying to survive and thrive in Victorian-era East End London. Our TV critic David Bianculli has this review.
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David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. He reviewed A Thousand Blows, now streaming on Hulu. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, we remember South African playwright Athol Fugard, whose plays were about the emotional and psychological consequences of apartheid.
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And we remember songwriter and singer Jerry Butler, who sang with Curtis Mayfield in The Impressions before going solo. I hope you can join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.
Fresh Air
The Gutting Of The Department Of Education
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
The Gutting Of The Department Of Education
Right, because 60 other universities received a letter just on Monday. I would assume there probably is fear around funding cuts for those universities as well.
Fresh Air
The Gutting Of The Department Of Education
So the Office of Civil Rights within the Department of Ed sent that letter to the colleges and universities. And that office, which under a larger proposal to dismantle the education department, would fall under the jurisdiction of the Department of Justice. Can you share the latest of what we know about this draft executive order to dismantle the department that has been circulating?
Fresh Air
The Gutting Of The Department Of Education
This leaves the department to roughly half of its workforce, which is responsible for enforcing civil rights laws in schools, supplying student loans and grants, and tracking student achievement. These new layoffs come as President Donald Trump calls to eliminate the department altogether.
Fresh Air
The Gutting Of The Department Of Education
Remind us what the US Department of Education is responsible for.
Fresh Air
The Gutting Of The Department Of Education
Going back to what you said about how it would take an act of Congress to dismantle, I do want to talk with you about the ways that the administration can change the function without Congress. One of the ways is by taking some of what the Department of Education does and then having other departments handle that. Can you give us some examples of that?
Fresh Air
The Gutting Of The Department Of Education
At the heart of Trump's effort is a plan to consolidate what he describes as waste within the government, vowing to cut federal funding for schools and colleges that promote, quote, Earlier this week, the U.S. Department of Education also sent letters to 60 colleges and universities.
Fresh Air
The Gutting Of The Department Of Education
There was an executive order that Trump put forth in February where he demanded the secretary of education to deliver recommendations to him for eliminating funding for K-12 schools that engage in the indoctrination, as he puts it, over race and gender topics. And schools are typically a reflection of their communities.
Fresh Air
The Gutting Of The Department Of Education
And the curriculum is not set by the federal government, but states and the districts themselves. So how would the federal government enforce something like this?
Fresh Air
The Gutting Of The Department Of Education
This idea of moving the Office of Civil Rights, which, as you mentioned, enforces Title IX and the individuals with Disabilities Education Act to the Department of Justice, how would being under the DOJ change the function of that office?
Fresh Air
The Gutting Of The Department Of Education
Yes, they're two very different things. But ultimately, could the administration get what it wants through that second action?
Fresh Air
The Gutting Of The Department Of Education
It says are under investigation for violations relating to alleged anti-Semitic harassment against Jewish students during pro-Palestinian protests on campuses nationwide. Joining us to talk about all of this is Laura Meckler, a national education writer for The Washington Post, who covers news, politics, and the people shaping American schools.
Fresh Air
The Gutting Of The Department Of Education
It's pretty interesting that Linda McMahon has taken this role as the head of the Department of Education to dismantle it. Can you kind of give us a sense of is she working herself out of a job? Is she there just for that explicit purpose? What can you tell us about her?
Fresh Air
The Gutting Of The Department Of Education
It's also pretty interesting because when Betsy DeVos was sworn in, it was pretty clear – her ideology around education. I mean, she was just such a big proponent of school choice. With McMahon, what did she indicate during her confirmation hearings would be sort of her focus around education, understanding her background?
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And today, we're discussing the rapid dismantling of diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives, commonly known as DEI, in both public and private sectors nationwide. One side of the political spectrum praises DEI, often referring to it as a major step toward progress. The other uses it as a slur, an example of woke culture gone too far.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
One thing that I want to note is we're not only seeing the reversal of DEI in many sectors, but DEIA, which also includes accessibility for disabled people. That has been much less of a headline. But what are you two noticing on that front? Dr. Dobbin?
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
Our guests today are Professors Frank Dobbin of Harvard University and Ella Washington of Georgetown. Our conversation was recorded on Monday. More after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
You know, we've been talking about all of the ways that diversity, equity, and inclusion can be thought of in the context of work and civic life. And Dr. Dobbin, you and your colleagues actually analyzed three decades worth of data from about 800 companies and interviewed hundreds of managers and executives.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
You found that some of the most effective solutions to inclusivity and diversity aren't even designed with diversity in mind. You mentioned earlier, like training programs, but can you give us some other examples of that?
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
You know, I think that is the big question is if it's not mandated, if it's not under a diversity, equity, and inclusion initiative or mandate, will these things happen?
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
Can you all remind us of the realities for non-white men in corporate America? I mean, corporate America, education, civic life, before those civil rights protections, which was basically another iteration, the earlier iteration of DEI as we know it. I think we have short memories, and 60 years have passed since that legislation was passed. And
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
I mean, that's so interesting what you're saying about what Gen Z expects as they enter the workforce, right? Ten years ago, you know, having a lactation room at a place of employment was like a hard-fought win. And many places still don't have them. And you're talking about language services and like
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
language translation services, though, in the face of what is happening on the national level against uses of other languages. You know, the president declaring that English is the official language, though. It's like all of these things that our expectations are up against, like these real shifts and changes that are happening on the federal level.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
And I'm just wondering, how are you looking at those two things in contrast with each other?
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
Dr. Dobbin, I want to go back to something you talked about. You said earlier around diversity training. I think one of the most controversial and contentious elements of diversity, equity, inclusion today is like the popularity of those types of workshops over the last few years. Why don't diversity and say like implicit bias trainings work?
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
So the current discussion around DEI has become so muddled. I think it would be good for us to have an understanding before those protections on what the realities were in corporate life for people.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
Both of you have talked about some of the pitfalls of outside companies coming into organizations to impart this training, in part because they don't know or understand the culture and some of the ways to really have that kind of conversation using the language and understanding of the components of the organization?
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
What have you all seen that works? Full disclosure, many years ago, about a decade ago, when I was at Stanford, I worked with social scientists to create this implicit bias curriculum for newsrooms. And it wasn't perfect. We knew it at the time.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
but it allowed us to have conversations about things that we hadn't talked about that really did impact our day-to-day work, like homogenous teams working in predominantly Black cities, for instance, or Ivy League graduates covering working-class communities. Has research shown any value in having conversations of any kind like this about systemic racism or implicit bias in the workplace.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
Is there space to have that kind of conversation to get to solutions?
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
There's also with the overarching political landscape with DEI now thought of as a slur. I mean, will companies continue the work in stealth mode and in other ways if there are no longer laws or mandates to require it or there's pressure? to dismantle it for fear of losing potential funding?
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking to Professors Frank Dobbin and Ella Washington, both experts in diversity, equity, and inclusion, about the nationwide dismantling of DEI initiatives.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
This past weekend, under the Trump administration, the Department of Education launched a new website called NDEI, a federal tip line for reporting instances where initiatives are being implemented or taught in schools. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
I'm just curious for both of you, the toll that these rollbacks have had, because I assume you do this work because you feel like it's the right thing to do. I'll start with you, Dr. Washington.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
Is there a difference generationally in how people view DEI? Like, have your students in particular in class, have they said anything about the things that are happening in the moment with President Trump's executive orders?
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
Frank Dobbin. Ella Washington, thank you all so much for your expertise in this conversation. Thank you for having me.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
Ella Washington is an organizational psychologist and professor of practice at Georgetown University's McDonough School of Business. And Frank Dobbin is a professor of sociology at Harvard University. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, actor Simu Liu. He's best known for his breakout role as Shang-Chi, Marvel's first Asian superhero, and for playing a rival kin in the film Barbie.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
And it's become a challenge to debate its merits when we can't even agree on what it is. The cascade to dismantle anything called DEI began in January when President Trump issued executive orders to eliminate initiatives within the federal government and institutions that receive funding from the government.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
Teresa Madden directed today's show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
You know, there is this perception, I mean, much like the argument against affirmative action, that DEI allows for preferential treatment of minority groups. And it has come at a cost, meaning that it has turned into reverse discrimination. I'm just wondering, based on the research that both of you all have done, what groups have benefited most from it?
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
And is there research or data that show patterns of reverse discrimination?
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
You mentioned those lawsuits from the 70s, reverse discrimination lawsuits that didn't go anywhere. You have also made a point to say that, I mean, basically white nationalist groups have been fighting against the Civil Rights Act and really diversity, equity and inclusion for the last 60 years. What is different now is that this effort is mainstream.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
Since then, states like Florida, Texas, and Utah have banned DEI offices at public universities. And companies like Pepsi and Disney and McDonald's have done away or quietly shifted their focus away from initiatives that promote diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
What was the ignition that really set off this effort? Really, it seems like over the last five years or so.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
To help us understand the criticism, the developments, and implications, we're joined by two distinguished experts, Frank Dobbin, professor of sociology at Harvard University, and Ella Washington, an organizational psychologist and professor at Georgetown University's McDonough School of Business. Welcome to you both. Thank you for having me.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
I'm really interested in how private companies, many of them are preemptively doing away with their DEI initiatives. And I would guess that some of them receive subsidies from the U.S. government, and that is probably why they're taking these steps. But Dr. Washington, you have often worked directly within the private sector with companies, knowing kind of those internal conversations.
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
What do you make of some of those preemptive strikes to do away with DEI initiatives?
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
How effective do you think economic boycotts are? There was one that just happened just this past Friday. We'll learn in the next few days the outcomes of those. But people are trying to show their beliefs through their wallets. Historically, how successful has something like that been?
Fresh Air
How Did DEI Become Part Of A Political Agenda — And A Slur?
Well, I think it's good for us to start with some basics because I'm not even sure when I'm in conversation with people about DEI if we're talking about the same things because it's become such a broad term. So I think it's great for all of us to start with how you both define DEI. And I'll start with you, Dr. Washington.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
Tell us your thoughts about this action taken against birthright citizenship for anybody born in the U.S. after February 19th, 2025. I mean, it's been fought in the court, but it would limit birthright citizenship to at least one parent being a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident to qualify. You've been very critical of this. Talk to me about the ramifications of something like this.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
Daniel Canstrom, welcome to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
I'm happy to have your expertise on the show today. And I want to start with the case of Romeza Ozturk. She is the PhD student at Tufts University. She's from Turkey and is here on a student visa. In this video that circulated last week, we see the arrest unfold. We see a man in a black hoodie and a face mask approach her as she leaves her apartment. And that man grabs her hands.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
Our guest is legal scholar and immigration expert Daniel Kanstrom. Our interview was recorded yesterday. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
You're advising some people not to leave the country. I've been hearing anecdotally that colleges and universities, those who hire people who come from other countries, also telling them don't leave for spring break, things like that. We're also hearing, though, some U.S.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
residents and visa holders are reporting that when they are trying to come back into the country, that they are being stopped by Homeland Security, their phones are being checked, social media is emails upon arrival, being detained for several days. Some have reported being detained for several weeks. Is this something new under the administration? Have these always been tactics?
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
And I want to play a little bit from that video. What we're about to hear is Ozturk sort of scream a little. It appears she doesn't know for a moment what's happening. Okay. We hear her yelling out and then we see some other people in plain clothes who we later learn are ICE officers. They surround her and one person pulls out a badge and then they cuff her and take her off.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
I was thinking about the possible futures for these college students recently detained. Like, how difficult is it to reopen a case once someone is deported, to basically come back?
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
So if a mistake is made, I mean, the challenge of being able to correct that mistake once you've been deported is very, very low.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
Can we talk a little bit about immigration courts in the United States for a moment? I know they operate under the Executive Office for Immigration Review, which is part of the DOJ. We've all been hearing for years about the need to reform, if for nothing else but for the sheer backlog. I actually was reading that some immigration judges at this very moment are handling something like 5,000 cases.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
That's astounding. It raises questions about whether the system can actually fairly handle all of these immigration and deportation cases and how often mistakes are made.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
Something I was thinking about in reading your book, The New Deportation Delirium, you really get into some facts that give us greater context. Like one of the things you write about is the sheer scale of resources that's needed for ICE to carry out their function of arrests. And I was thinking about when I watched the video of Ozturk being arrested in front of her building.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
They had to, of course, know where she lived. They also had to know what time she'd be home, know her schedule, go through all of her public records. Lay out for us what goes into this kind of work.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. In recent weeks, immigration agents have descended on college campus towns across the country and carried out waves of arrests of international students. Just last week, a video circulated of six ICE agents in masks and plain clothes surrounding and arresting a 30-year-old Turkish Ph.D. student from Tufts University as she stepped out for dinner during Ramadan.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
Professor Canstrom, what was your reaction when you first saw this video?
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
If you're just joining us, we're talking about the latest immigration arrests on college campuses with Daniel Kanstrom, a legal scholar and professor specializing in immigration law, human rights, and public policy at Boston College. Our interview was recorded yesterday. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
Professor Canstrom, um, As you mentioned earlier, another big headline is the deportations to El Salvador. Just this week, the Trump administration deported 17 people described as violent offenders, and they linked them to gangs. And this follows earlier deportations of hundreds of Venezuelans under similar claims. Now, the Salvadorian government has accepted these deportees in exchange for
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
financial support from the U.S. And some of the challenges is that some of these detainees have reportedly have no criminal records. Are these expedited deportations in violation of international human rights standards?
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
You've already touched on this a bit, but what are the legal implications of invoking the Alien Enemies Act to justify these deportations? How does it align with the historical uses of the statute?
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
I was also wondering about the financial entanglements. Like how should international law potentially address agreements between countries like the U.S. and El Salvador where like these financial incentives might influence acceptance of deportees?
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
A judge in Massachusetts temporarily barred the deportation of Ozturk, but the Department of Homeland Security said that she was originally detained and her visa terminated because she was in support of the U.S.-designated terrorist group Hamas. And what they appear to be referencing is an op-ed she wrote that was critical of Israel. Can she be deported for that?
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
Okay. So just so I'm clear, this question that I think continues to come up as we see more and more arrests, whether students who hold a visa have First Amendment rights, I think what I'm hearing from you is it's both yes and no.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
She held a valid F-1 student visa, but was detained because it had been revoked, reportedly without warning. Her case is not an isolated one. Several arrests have taken place at other universities, too, like Columbia, the University of Minnesota, and the University of Alabama, where an Iranian doctoral student was taken into custody after his visa was annulled by the State Department.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
Something else I was just curious about, just a side note, but ICE took Ozturk to a detention center in Louisiana before her attorneys could get a judge to block that transfer. This is the same center where they took Mahmoud Khalil. He's the Columbia University graduate student who was arrested in early March. Why Louisiana and why that detention center?
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
Is it something about that detention center or something by design?
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
You know, one of the things I want to talk with you about is what you are seeing in your work, because you have, as a professor, as a legal scholar, the ability to see the big picture, but then you also have your ear to the ground as part of this Boston College Immigration and Asylum Clinic, which you founded. Students there provide services for people like advocating for people who are detained.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
What are you hearing right now? What are some of the concerns that people are coming into the clinic talking about? What are some of the students seeing that are working with international students and others who may be concerned about their status at this moment?
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
To help us understand the legal dimensions of these actions, what they mean not only for international students, but for U.S. visa and even green card holders, really anyone who wasn't born in the United States, is Daniel Kanstrom, a professor at Boston College Law School and scholar on immigration and human rights.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
What I'm hearing from you as a legal expert, you believe that this focus on these students who are here legally is a scare tactic. But can you get a little bit deeper into this idea? Because Trump has laid out very clearly during his campaign trail and his first few days of office that he wanted to deport millions of undocumented immigrants.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
But this focus on students who are here legally, what do these arrests tell us about this larger immigration strategy?
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
He founded the Boston College Immigration and Asylum Clinic, where law students advocate for migrants and directs the Post-Deportation Human Rights Project. which explores the long-term impacts of deportation on families and communities. Canstrom's latest book, The New Deportation Delirium, examines the sprawling system of deportation in our country since 9-11.
Fresh Air
ICE Campus Arrests & The 'Struggle For The Soul' Of America
Let's talk just a little bit more about some of the things we're seeing in real time. We're hearing stories of students and others preemptively leaving the country, basically self-deporting. Is that also a strategy, basically to get people to leave on their own?
Fresh Air
Mark Ruffalo Hates The Hulk Suit
Hey, it's Tanya Mosley. It's almost the end of the year, and this is the season when we here at NPR come to you as a nonprofit news organization and ask for your support. Maybe you're already an NPR Plus supporter, and if so, thank you so much.
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Mark Ruffalo Hates The Hulk Suit
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Mark Ruffalo Hates The Hulk Suit
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Mark Ruffalo Hates The Hulk Suit
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Mark Ruffalo Hates The Hulk Suit
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Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
I actually referenced something in my introduction, and that's the sartorial choices of wearing blue throughout history. You reference how Coretta Scott King wore blue on her wedding day to Martin Luther King Jr. Carlotta Lanier was the youngest of nine children to desegregate a high school in 1957, and she wore a blue dress. Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in his Dodgers blue. Mm-hmm.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
What's the argument for these examples kind of being anything more than a coincidence?
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
Can I have you read a passage, page 21, last paragraph?
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
Our guest today is scholar and award-winning author Imani Perry, who has written a new book, Black and Blues, How a Color Tells the Story of My People. We'll be right back in just a bit. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
I was thinking about the retort against Black Lives Matter back in 2020. And for some, it was Blue Lives Matter. Yeah. How are you thinking about the color blue as it relates to authority, to police, the military?
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
Something you referenced in our conversation is indigo, the colonial export of indigo. And indigo was really instrumental in shaping the destinies of millions of Africans. What did you learn about the creation of indigo blue in the slave trade?
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
My guest today is scholar and author Imani Perry, and we're talking about her new book, Black in Blues, How a Color Tells the Story of My People. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
Your book really does take us through history using, it's a history book, but in the best way. It's not a dense text, you know, think of like a history textbook. But this revisiting this time period, I mean, I was astounded to learn by 1775, South Carolina was exporting more than a million pounds of indigo annually. So it was like the colony's second most valuable export after rice.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. You know, sometimes there are ideas that make you reconsider the way you look at the world around you. My guest today, scholar Imani Perry, does that with her new book, Black and Blues, How a Color Tells the Story of My People. Perry weaves the gravitational pull of blue in black life, both literally and metaphorically, in sound and in color.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
Thank you so much for that, Amani. I also want to say that this book is, I know you don't think of yourself as a poet, but it's very lyrical. It's really poetry. Thank you. How did meditating on the color blue help you come to a deeper understanding about the use of the word black to articulate what we are?
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
And to your point, like when we learn about that history, the history of that time period, it's typically focused on those other exports like rice and cotton.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
You meditate on that thinking about, I think in the book you mentioned cobalt.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
You mentioned like what's used to create the technology that we use.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
One of the more powerful, perhaps also really painful things that you do is reflect on what our ancestors saw looking out into the deep blueness of the sea during the Middle Passage. I think we've heard these fables that speak to this, that many chose to end their lives by jumping overboard, maybe transfixed. These are stories that really change this idea of the
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
the horde nature of it, like transfixed by the blueness and possibility that the ocean gave, that maybe there was an underworld under the deep blue sea where our ancestors found liberation. What was this process like for you imagining what that deep blue sea offered to those during the Middle Passage?
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
I want to fast forward to modern times. There was this period in the 80s, which was really like close to two decades after the civil rights movement. I'm thinking like the late 80s when it felt like, as you write, progress had stalled. And you called it a time when art took center stage as a way to make meaning. Can you say more about that?
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
Let's take a short break. My guest today is scholar and author Imani Perry, and we're talking about her new book, Black and Blues, How a Color Tells the Story of My People. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
You know, thinking about this time period that we're in, what is it like to be at this moment a professor of studies on women and gender and sexuality and Black American studies at a time when conservatives are fighting against having most, if not all of those things studied at higher education institutions?
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
I'd like to, in our conversation on a passage of your book that I feel is so rooted in the present moment, it's page 228, the last paragraph. It starts with an admission.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
Thank you for reading that, Imani. I mean, I feel like this book is really, this meditation on the color blue has given me more language to understand by existence. So I want to thank you for that. And I also want to know, what has it done for you to spend this time on the color and the sensibility and the sound of blue?
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
Imani Perry, as always, thank you so much for this thought-provoking conversation.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
Imani Perry's new book is Black and Blues, How a Color Tells the Story of My People. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, we've been talking a lot about loneliness. Research shows we're spending more time alone than ever. Atlantic writer Derek Thompson joins us to talk about how all of this me time is having a profound impact on our personalities, our politics, and our relationship to reality.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Thanks to Jose Llanes from WDET for additional engineering help. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
I want to talk a little bit about music. It's kind of the easiest way to get even deeper into this book and this thought. You know, I think the term blue note is so embedded in our understanding as something that relates to jazz music. If you're not a musician, maybe you just know of it, but not really.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
At least I didn't know what it meant really until I was reading your book and I understood it to mean the in-between.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
I was just really curious how this definition of the in-between works. also allows you to deepen your understanding of how Black people's creation of the art form of jazz itself came to be?
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
From the creation of dyed indigo cloths and West Africa that were traded for human life in the 16th century to the American art form of blues music and sartorial choices. Coretta Scott King wore blue on her wedding day. Fannie Lou Hamer wore a blue dress to testify before Congress.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
I want to play an early reference that you write about. It's Louis Armstrong's 1951 recording of What did I do to be so black and blue? Let's listen to a little.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
That was Louis Armstrong's 1951, What Did I Do to Be So Black and Blue? It was really fun to go down memory lane and listen to these old pieces, I'll say. But what did you learn about how Armstrong really turned this song, which was several decades old by the time he sang it, into really a direct commentary for the time?
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
These examples could be seen as mere coincidences, but in this book, Perry weaves a compelling argument for why they are not. Imani Perry is the Henry A. Morris Jr. and Elizabeth W. Morris Professor of Studies of Women, Gender, and Sexuality and of African and African American Studies at Harvard University.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
You also reference Nina Simone. You talk about her first album, which was in 1957. There is this song called Little Girl Blue. I also want to play that. Let's hear a little bit.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
She's also the author of several books and has published numerous articles on law, cultural studies, and African American studies, including Looking for Lorraine, which is a biography of of the playwright Lorraine Hansberry, and Breathe, a letter to my sons. Imani Perry, welcome back to Fresh Air, and thank you so much for this fascinating book. Oh, thank you for having me.
Fresh Air
What The Color Blue Tells About Black History
That was Nina Simone singing Little Girl Blue. And Imani, as you write about, there was just a lot going on with this album. There's a lot of delays with the recording label. It kind of set her on the path, really her career path decisions from that point on. What did you learn about Simone and the recording of this song that made you want to explore it for the book?
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. Let's go back to the year 2000. A young Seth Rogen and his writing partner, Evan Goldberg, have arrived from Canada, and they're meeting with a studio executive to go over a screenplay they've written together. During the meeting, the executive makes a cynical confession.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
It feels like a love letter to Los Angeles, which feels especially... Just watching it for me, a tinge of sadness a bit just with all that has happened with the fires.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Our guest today is Seth Rogen. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Gosh, some of the scenarios in this series, like the self-importance.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
So there's this particular episode and there's a scene in the episode where your character is dating a doctor. And she takes him to, I think it's like a cancer fundraiser.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
And he, while talking to fellow doctors and researchers who are like looking for cures for cancer and stuff, He gets into an argument and he says to a group of them, something like, you all save lives.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
You all save lives, but we make life worth living. That is like the most absurd non-self-aware statement ever. But Seth, it also is kind of true. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
From there, the audience is taken on a funny but also absurd and often cringeworthy adventure as Matt, always flustered and desperately needing to be liked, has to find ways to keep the studio afloat. Seth Rogen has produced, directed, written, and starred in many films, including Superbad, Knocked Up, This is the End, Sausage Party, and the limited series Pam and Tommy.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
There's also like this storyline about being scared. about whether something is racist. And that's hilarious because, like, it just goes through all these different iterations. Is that a situation that you've had to deal with in real life?
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Is there a story that comes to mind that happened in real life?
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's also the funny scene where to make sure. So in the case like the alien, like in The Voice, you go to like the one person of color in the place. Oh, yes. Is this okay?
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I am talking with Seth Rogen about his new Apple TV Plus series, The Studio. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
He founded the production company, Point Grey Pictures, along with his writing and directing partner, Evan Goldberg. And the two have founded the cannabis products and home goods company, Houseplant. And Seth Rogen, welcome back to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Okay, so cameos. You got a lot of cameos. Zoe Kravitz, Martin Scorsese, to name a few. I've read the stories about getting them, especially Scorsese. But was it easy to get them to say yes?
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Did he have things to say about it? Did he give notes?
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Impressive to watch, but it had to feel good for you as someone who's the creative, the person, to have him not give you.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
"'I got into this job because I love movies,' he says, "'and now I feel like it's my job to ruin them.'" Rogan and Goldberg never forgot what that executive said, and 25 years later, they've made it the basis of a new satirical comedy series called The Studio.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Well, I really want to go back to this time, 2000. You and Evan are in this executive's office. And he says this thing to you, like, I now ruin movies. Like, what was your reaction? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
You know, it's just so interesting. Right. It's meta in that this character just walks around with so much talent. fear and like hope that he is light yeah this is something that's like you too but yet for you and for this character like there's something that pushes you to like have to face that every single day
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
I want to play this clip, another clip, because this one kind of speaks to what you're saying. So your old boss, Patty, played by Catherine O'Hara. I just keep picking those clips. I like you two together.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
So you guys are talking about giving notes to this ridiculously long, weird movie. The Ron Howard movie. Ron Howard, who plays himself in this series, directed. And so in this, you guys are kind of talking about having to give him notes. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
That was Catherine O'Hara and my guest today, Seth Rogen, in the new Apple TV Plus series, The Studio. And, of course, this is also kind of the crux of the show, this relationship between the executive and the creative and the note-giving process. You talked about, like, you haven't been front and center in this industry.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
and a really long time to have to kind of face like as a creative, but you've dealt with that your whole life. And how do you deal with that when you have a career that's really based on your childhood dreams, you know, just for those who don't know, I just want to like lay this out. So you and Evan, you're, um,
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
your creative partner and business partner you guys met when you were 13 years old in bar mitzvah classes and soon after you all began writing these screenplays together and like so much of the art that we see that comes from you like the films and things it comes from your childhood imagination or the imagination that you all have like
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
created together over the decades yeah so it's like very personal very personal yes I mean how have you dealt with that in in the years you know what receiving notes and stuff like that or criticism yeah notes and criticism and then having the like that extra something to have you to keep going
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Well, because so much of your material comes from a personal place. Have you ever gotten a note from an executive that felt like an insult?
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Well, wasn't there that note from that executive or something about Jonah Hill's character is super bad?
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
But the thing about the Superbad one, I mean, Jonah's character is based on you.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
A few years ago, though, there was like this market change. You became very, very stylish in like a very intentional way. And I just want to know if it's an evolution of just who you are or was it – is there a story behind it?
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
I mean, do people treat you differently or relate to you differently?
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Seth Rogan, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you and thank you for the studio.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Seth Rogen co-created and stars in the new series, The Studio. It premieres on Apple TV Plus on March 26th. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
The new crime series Long Bright River stars Amanda Seyfried as a police officer whose search for a killer plunges her back into her family's past in a troubled Philadelphia neighborhood. It's based on the bestselling novel by Liz Moore. Our critic at large, John Powers, says that the show is after something much more than solving a crime.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
John Powers reviewed the new series Long Bright River. It's now streaming on Peacock. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, the promise and peril of artificial intelligence. Investigative reporter Gary Rivlin's new book tells the inside story of how AI was developed and how big tech firms are racing to build powerful systems with enormous potential for harm and profit. His book is AI Valley.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Annemarie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.D. Nesper. Roberta Shurock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
I mean, that's the thing. You have a lot of sympathy for them because of this – very formative experience for you. Yeah. But also, you say it's like the funniest job in all of Hollywood.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Rogan plays Matt Remick, a Hollywood executive who gets an unexpected promotion as the head of the fictional Continental Studios after his boss is fired. In this scene, the CEO of the studio, played by Bryan Cranston, offers Matt the job, but asks if Matt really has what it takes to do it the Continental way.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Is it true that you interviewed almost every Hollywood executive for this series?
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Yeah. Okay. Let's get into the series because I think you said something like 85% of what is in it is actually true to some extent.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
And talking about interviewing these executives. Yeah. If this stuff is true, oh, my gosh, because it's like the cringiest scenarios ever.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Okay. The characters are phenomenal. I mentioned Catherine O'Hara, who is, she was your boss. She was fired and you take over her job. Ike Barinholtz, who plays this powerful lower level executive, desperate for power. He is hilarious.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Katherine Hahn, who plays this aggressive marketing chief with lots of opinions. Chase Suey Wonders, who plays an ambitious young executive. And she does a couple of shady things to like it over.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
And then there's the host of actors and filmmakers with very, very fragile egos. And then how would you describe your character, Matt Remick?
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
He's also walking around all the time terrified.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
That's like the great tension of the series. So it's set in present day and all of these executives, like they're up against the real challenges of the moment. AI plays a big role. Racial sensitivity. Like there's all these different things. But your character, he wants to make art.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
You mentioned Robert Evans, and you often reference him. Can you explain who he is?
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
That really was such an enlightening moment for me in thinking about how everyone behind the scenes, including the studio execs, how meaningful it is at award ceremonies to hear your name.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
It just really brings more meaning to when we're watching those shows and you see the actor or the director and they're, like, naming off the names. And they're like, oh, yeah, let me not forget this person.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Okay. I want to play a clip. In this scene, Matt, your character, goes over to his old boss's house, played by Catherine O'Hara, Patty, to seek some guidance. And the two talk about how he's handling being the new head of the studio. Yeah. O'Hara speaks first.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
That was Catherine O'Hara playing the role of Patty in the studio and also my guest today, Seth Rogen. And that's the basis for this whole series. But, you know, I wanted to – this particular scene was really powerful because we understand, like – his motivations. And then she, as a wisdom, you know, person with wisdom, gives kind of the larger context there. But it's also so beautiful.
Fresh Air
Seth Rogen Lands The 'Tragic' Job Of Studio Head
Like, you guys are standing on an overlook, overlooking LA. And the show and the character's wardrobe is all very much old Hollywood. It's just interesting, the juxtaposition between the visual and then Yeah, exactly.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. Last week, the Senate confirmed Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who has historically been a vaccine skeptic, as President Trump's head of the Department of Health and Human Services. Today, we're going to be talking about the importance of vaccines amid the growing avian bird flu and measles spread with pediatrician and infectious disease expert Dr. Adam Ratner.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Well, your book is very relevant. President Trump has announced significant funding cuts for the NIH, the National Institutes of Health, which will have a direct impact on medical research. The anti-vax movement continues to grow. There is still this disbelief in science and research that we are seeing. And you have made it your life's work to study and treat infectious diseases.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Can you talk a little bit more about the latest action from the National Institutes of Health, which is now capping funding for medical research at medical schools and universities. How does this impact the fight to keep infectious diseases at bay?
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Our guest today is Dr. Adam Ratner. We recorded this conversation you're hearing last week about his new book, Booster Shots, The Urgent Lessons of Measles and the Uncertain Future of Children's Health. We'll be right back after this break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
One of the things that we also don't talk about a lot is faith. And what I mean by that is faith that the system will actually work for our benefit. So you actually tell a story of how the vaccine trial for polio in 55 was really a high watermark for public enthusiasm. Yes.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Then President Carter came into office and relied on that accumulated goodwill as they tried to eradicate some of these childhood diseases like measles. But as we move through time, I'd also love to just slow down a little bit and talk about some of those moments in the 80s and 90s that really shook our trust in government decision-making as it relates to our health and well-being.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Why did you want to tell the larger implications of what we're seeing through this story of measles?
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
I'm really curious how you manage the distrust as you interface with parents and legislators and all types of people. Because you said something earlier that I thought was really interesting. You said like once you scare the public, you can't unscare them. Like it's really hard to dial that back.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
And that had me thinking about discredited academic Andrew Wakefield, who, as folks may know, the medical journal Lancet in 1998 published a paper from Wakefield that promoted this fraudulent hypothesis that the MMR vaccine, measles, mumps, rubella vaccine, could cause previously healthy children to develop a form of autism.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
And while that has widely been discredited, it also seemed like a flashpoint as well. I learned about it as a mother in 2007. This had been discredited years before, but there was still such a debate about it, a strong debate and belief. How do you deal with that growth of mistrust in the conversations that you have with parents and others?
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Not one conversation. And do you feel that you've been successful?
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is pediatrician and infectious disease expert Dr. Adam Ratner. He's written a new book called Booster Shots, The Urgent Lessons of Measles and the Uncertain Future of Children's Health. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Are you amazed that after the success of the COVID vaccine that there is this rising skepticism? We got to see all of the advancements come to fruition just in those few years, and yet there's more skepticism than ever.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
I also want to ask you while I have you about the bird flu, also known as the avian flu and H5N1. It is now present in all 50 states, impacting humans in about almost a dozen states. What should we be worried about?
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Dr., I think I'd like to end our conversation by having you read an excerpt from your book.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
You close this book by taking a moment to think about the two battles that we are facing, the war against the pathogen and the fight over information, like fighting fake news and wrong information. What should be our strategy to fight that second fight? And does it feel insurmountable or all of this history that you have compiled for this book, does it show us a way?
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Dr. Adam Ratner, thank you so much for this book and for this conversation.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Coming up, our book critic Maureen Corrigan reviews Memorial Days, the new memoir from Pulitzer Prize-winning novelist Geraldine Brooks about the sudden loss of her husband. This is Fresh Air. Geraldine Brooks is the Pulitzer Prize-winning novelist of March, as well as her most recent novel, Horse.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Brooks is also the widow of Tony Horwitz, perhaps best known for his book Confederates in the Attic. Brooks' new memoir, Memorial Days, recalls their long marriage and the aftermath of its sudden end. Our book critic Maureen Corrigan has a review.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Twenty-five years ago, measles was declared eliminated in the United States. It was a long-fought win for pediatricians and researchers and those who work in infectious diseases. Today, however, measles is back, and Dr. Ratner says the resurgence points to a larger, more significant problem for public health. Measles isn't just inconvenient.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Right. I talked about how confidence in medicine and public health may actually be at an all-time low, which is very interesting because the pandemic showed us how infectious disease spreads. We watched a vaccine be developed, and we also saw all of the inequities that a crisis like that revealed about who has access to medical care and vaccinations.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Maureen Corrigan is professor of literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed Memorial Days by Geraldine Brooks. On the next Fresh Air, Germany's federal elections are on Sunday, and Elon Musk is supporting the far-right candidate for chancellor.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nakundi, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Roberta Shurock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
I assume this is also what keeps you up at night as you think about measles being an indicator.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Now that we're several years past that, what do you make of the growth in the movement? We now have Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who is now a voice that many American people listen to and feel hopeful that someone like this actually will be in a high office.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
It is highly contagious and can lead to serious complications, including pneumonia, brain inflammation, blindness, and even death.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
You're also saying it's why it's an important thing to look at children's health as we think about the health of larger society. And something really interesting is you describe all of those past communicable diseases, whooping cough, polio, all of those things that have been eradicated.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Dr. Ratner's new book, Booster Shots, The Urgent Lessons of Measles and the Uncertain Future of Children's Health, warns that as the number of vaccinations in children decreases and the lack of public trust in science increases, the resurgence of illnesses like measles is a foregone conclusion.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
You actually describe measles as this quintessential human pathogen because it teaches us about ourselves and namely our capacity to learn, but also to forget. So Anybody who was born before the 1970s, you will have a very different discussion about the value of immunizations because they saw many of those diseases in real life.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
But today, some of the skepticism does come from not being able to see it. I'm just wondering for you as a doctor, how do you manage that with your patients who have real concerns about side effects when it comes to vaccinations, in part because they've never even seen many of these diseases when they were in society.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
Measles, like many communicable diseases, Ratner says, is a biological agent that preys on human inequity, thriving on conditions of chaos, colonialism, and war. Dr. Adam Ratner is a professor of pediatrics and microbiology at NYU Grossman School of Medicine and the director of the Division of Pediatric Infectious Diseases at Hassenfield Children's Hospital and Bellevue Hospital Center.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
You know, I'm just thinking about what we see in... In media and television shows and movies, measles is always portrayed as like this nuisance, almost like chickenpox. Why is it so hard to control once it spreads?
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
You know, actually, in 2019, there was this measles epidemic, as you know, that killed 80 children in Samoa. And Robert F. Kennedy Jr. actually wrote to the country's prime minister and made this false claim that the measles vaccine was probably causing the people there to die. What are your biggest concerns about Kennedy being tasked with leading the nation's biggest health agency?
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
We recorded this conversation last week. Dr. Ratner, welcome to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
What Measles Outbreaks Tell Us About Public Health In America
What are you thinking about as you think about a path forward and what this agency might mean for children's health and vaccinations?
Fresh Air
Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
Speaking of values, earlier when you said you've been trying your best to give your money away, I chuckled at that. But I only chuckled because it just sounds funny, you know. But when you're a billionaire, right, you can't really ever give all your money away.
Fresh Air
Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
And just a few days ago, Abigail Disney, she's the granddaughter of Walt Disney, she said in an interview that anyone who can't live off of $999 million is a sociopath.
Fresh Air
Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
And of course, I thought about you because you've been saying this in not so many words for a really long time, that it's important to give your wealth away, that you could never really spend it in your lifetime, you or your family. But here's a question. You've been trying to convince other billionaires to give away the majority of their wealth for many years now.
Fresh Air
Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
And I always wanted to know how successful has that been?
Fresh Air
Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
And I know that philanthropy is such a tightly interwoven web that often works in collaboration with the government to fund initiatives. How are these cuts affecting the work that you do?
Fresh Air
Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
Our guest today is Melinda French-Gates. We'll continue after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
I know you get this question a lot, but how did you ground your children? You have three of them. They're all grown now. They're all in the world. How did you raise them not to be spoiled brats?
Fresh Air
Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
Your ex-husband, Bill, has said that the kids will receive less than 1% of the family fortune. Was that something that you've all let them know early in their lives?
Fresh Air
Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
Because there's so much there, huh? It's like, what is he talking about?
Fresh Air
Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
You know, I listened to your daughter Phoebe's new podcast about startup life. Have you listened to it? Of course. The Burnouts. I've listened to both episodes. Yeah. Well, one of the things that struck me was how grounded she seemed. And in the episode that I was listening to, I think it was actually the first one, she mentioned casually how she's a child of divorce. And
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
Hearing her say that it was just a reminder, I mean, of the obvious, but it was a reminder of how divorce is actually a big life transition for everyone. How did your kids help you through the divorce?
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
Yeah. I mean, something else that you touch on around this very dark period in your life, and it was just a reminder, is that sometimes these kinds of transitions are over years. I think we learned about your divorce, of course, when it was announced.
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
But you write about how you found that about 10 years before your divorce, you lost your center, that you lost your inner voice in a way, that strong voice that you had when you were a young girl in Catholic school that you were talking about earlier, just sitting in that and sitting in the quiet and The answer is coming to you.
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
Why do you think that was and what did that look like during that time period when when you couldn't hear yourself?
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
What's your relationship with Catholicism today? What's your relationship with the church?
Fresh Air
Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Melinda Fritch Gates. We're discussing her new book, The Next Day, Transitions, Change, and Moving Forward. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. I want to go back to your childhood because growing up middle class in Dallas, Texas, you were pretty far into adulthood when you became wealthy.
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
How are you thinking about where to focus your energy? I know that over the last few years with Pivotal Ventures, you've really been focusing on women's health and reproductive rights. And so this has to have an impact on the ways that you all are able to make impact.
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
So you remember a very significant time period in your life when you were not wealthy. What was your relationship like growing up to money and material things?
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
That's so interesting because, you know, like for people who don't have a lot of money, like they can actually say something like, well, we can't afford this. And that would be enough to then shut it down. But you could never say that to your kids.
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
So you had to set up another set of like parameters to to make sure that they understood that they just couldn't buy anything they wanted, even though they really could. Right.
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
What's a belief you held at the start of your journey as a philanthropist that maybe now you understand to be completely wrong?
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
Melinda, I really appreciate your time in this book. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me, Tanya. Melinda French Gates is the founder of Pivotal Ventures. Her new book is The Next Day. Coming up, our TV critic David Bianculli reviews the new season of Black Mirror. This is Fresh Air.
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
Black Mirror, the futuristic anthology series, presented its seventh season last week, streaming all six new episodes, including a feature-length sequel to one of the most popular episodes. Our TV critic David Bianculli has this review.
Fresh Air
Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And my guest today is Melinda French-Gates. Five years ago, she stood at a crossroads. After 27 years of marriage to Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates, she decided to walk away, not only from a relationship that had defined much of her adult life, but eventually the philanthropic empire they built together.
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
Is it a chaotic line of work in this moment because you're dealing with new information that's coming out, laws that are passed, changes, cuts, all of these things put so much of your work in flux?
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. He reviewed the new season of Black Mirror, now streaming on Netflix. If you watch the TV series The Americans, you just might wonder if your neighbor is really a Russian spy.
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
On the next Fresh Air, Sean Walker describes the real-life program the Soviet Union developed to train agents to embed for years as citizens in foreign countries. The program fell apart with the collapse of the Soviet Union, but has been revived by Putin. I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air.
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.B. Nesper.
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
One of the things that is very clear in this book is It's a reminder that really no amount of wealth can really protect us from the human experiences of grief and divorce. And I'm sure you often encounter people who treat you like your money shields you from those life's hardships.
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
I just always wonder, how do you navigate that tension of what to share and what to withhold, knowing that someone like you is viewed that way?
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
You grew up in a middle-class family in Dallas, Texas. Your dad, what a role model for you. He was an aerospace engineer. Your mom stayed home to care for you and your siblings. Your father really had an influence on your career aspirations. You write about how this wasn't just conceptual. You all would get to see and hear conversations about his work.
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
Last spring, Melinda left the Gates Foundation, the organization that had become the heartbeat of her professional identity. In her new book, The Next Day, Transitions Change and Moving Forward, Gates reflects on these seismic shifts, not just the end of her marriage or the reinvention of her public life, but the deeply personal evolution that came with those transitions.
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
through visitors who would come to your house, what memory sticks out to you the most?
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
Your father, he showed you all role models, of course, but he also he really invested in your you and your sister's dreams in a way that I mean, it really is somewhat novel for that time frame in the 60s and 70s. What do you think was different about your dad and his outlook on on what women do and what they could do?
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
There's also these really small things that he did. You tell one story in particular in the book that really on the face of it, it's a very small story, meaning it's a very day-to-day interaction you might have, a situation that might come up that really had an imprint on you, though. And it involved nail polish in the Catholic school that you went to. Can you tell that story? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
She takes us inside the moments that have defined her, becoming a mother, grieving the loss of one of her best friends, and grappling with the hard-earned lessons of philanthropy. Melinda French-Gates is the co-founder and former co-chair of the Gates Foundation, the world's largest private charitable organization.
Fresh Air
Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
One of the things that you really admired about your mom, of course, is that she was a great mother, but she, through example, taught you also how to be a great mother. So you have these two big examples in your life of how to be as you move through the world. But one of the best pieces of advice you write that your mother gave you was to set your own agenda or someone else will do it for you.
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
She's also the founder of Pivotal Ventures, which focuses on social progress for women and families in the United States. Melinda French-Gates, welcome to Fresh Air. Thanks for having me, Tanya. Melinda, I want to talk for a moment about your philanthropic work, because we all have been hearing about the ripple effects of the Trump administration's funding cuts.
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Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
And I was wondering, what is a time when you had to really put that advice to the test?
Fresh Air
Melinda French Gates On Giving Away Her 'Absurd' Wealth
It's really interesting in this moment that what was seen as a soft issue is now almost the opposite of that. You're fighting against many headwinds as divestment and women's issues is really like at the center of government funding cuts and lots of other cuts and laws.
Fresh Air
The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
Can you give us a, like, can we kind of pull back a little bit? How often do you estimate lawyers are going after media organizations? How big is this effort?
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
As Enrich's book points out, this was the first time a major U.S. candidate had ever talked about the reform of libel laws in a stump speech. President Trump has since sued network outlets like CBS and ABC, as well as smaller publications like the Des Moines Register and pollster J. Ann Selzer, claiming election interference.
Fresh Air
The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
Our guest today is David Enrich, author of the new book, Murder the Truth, Fear the First Amendment, and a secret campaign to protect the powerful. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
David, let's talk a little bit about how the current Supreme Court sees New York Times versus Sullivan. Take us to February of 2019. What did Justice Clarence Thomas specifically write about it?
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
In Murder the Truth, Fear, the First Amendment, and A Secret Campaign to Protect the Powerful, David Enrich investigates what he calls the secret movement to overturn the landmark Supreme Court decision and what it could mean for press freedom. Enrich is the business investigations editor for The New York Times. He's written several books about the intersection of law, business, and power.
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
I just want to get an understanding of what his opinion kind of means in the context of the entire Supreme Court. Justice Neil Gorsuch has also expressed some skepticism too, right? What has he said?
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
including Dark Towers, Deutsche Bank, Donald Trump, and the Epic Trail of Destruction, and Servants of the Damned, Giant Law Firms, Donald Trump, and the Corruption of Justice, which looks at the law firm Jones Day and how it represented Trump. David Enrich, welcome back to the show.
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
You spent quite a bit of time in the book looking at why Justice Thomas would want to overturn Sullivan potentially. And it goes back to his perceived mistreatment from the media during his confirmation hearings and all of the media onslaught essentially after the Anita Hill case. What had been his opinion before all of that, though?
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
Because he was asked about it actually during his confirmation hearings, right?
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
So you've written several investigative articles and books. What brought you to this story?
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
I'm just curious what he has said in those years after that. Like, how has he talked about the media?
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
Do you have any sense of how the other justices view Sullivan? Will the court take on a case to challenge precedent?
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
Let's take a short break, David. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Enrich, author of the new book, Murder the Truth, Fear the First Amendment, and a secret campaign to protect the powerful. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
am really fascinated by the individual money engine, namely the story you tell about Peter Thiel. And just to remind people of who he is, he's the co-founder of PayPal. And he got involved in the Gawker case involving Hulk Hogan. And just to set this up, Hulk Hogan sued Gawker in 2012 after they published a sex tape featuring Hogan. How did Thiel get involved?
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
Yeah. I mean, it's hard to feel sympathy for Gawker, especially as it pertains to this story. But do you think this case showed actual malice? Is that what the court found?
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. One day in February of 2019, during a gathering of the Supreme Court, Justice Clarence Thomas raised the prospect of overturning one of the most consequential free speech decisions ever made.
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
David, let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Enrich, author of the new book, Murder the Truth, Fear the First Amendment, and a secret campaign to protect the powerful. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
You know, I want to ask you about something that we seem to be seeing right now or at least talking about right now. What do you make of what seems to be anticipatory compliance by some media companies to Trump and others with their threats to sue or even settling without taking it to court?
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
We're only a few months into this administration, but are you seeing media companies changing their approach to editorial coverage of Trump's second administration? Yeah. Or hand-wringing about it. Yeah.
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
As part of your book, you spoke with a woman named Rachel Ehrenfeld, who migrated from Israel to the U.S. in the 80s. And she said to you this thing that she loves the most about America is the First Amendment, the freedom of speech and expression. It's what makes us different than any other place in the world. And I presume you feel that way, too. It's why you wrote this book.
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
David Enrich, thank you so much for this important book and thank you for your time.
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
Yeah. So you tell this story through several key figures, Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, Silicon Valley billionaire Peter Thiel. President Donald Trump, and there's also a team of high-powered lawyers whose jobs are to go after the media. Were you threatened with legal action at any point during the writing of this book?
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
David Enrich is the business investigations editor at The New York Times. His new book is Murder, the Truth. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, the Trump administration is taking bold steps to reshape America's education landscape with calls to dismantle the Department of Education. What does that mean for schools and students nationwide?
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
Washington Post national education writer Laura Meckler joins us to discuss how the administration's plans could take shape. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.
Fresh Air
The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Ngakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
As you mentioned, you work for The New York Times, so you have a strong legal team behind you. We're going to talk a little bit about Clare Locke a little bit later. But, you know, President Trump and others have said about this landmark New York Times versus Sullivan case, which offers protections to journalists, and it's the basis for your book.
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
It's basically like a get-out-of-jail-free card for journalists to basically get away with writing or reporting anything. So I think it would be great for us to talk a little bit about what Sullivan actually does, what it protects.
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
that strengthened First Amendment protections by enabling journalists and writers from top national outlets to local newspapers and bloggers to pursue the truth without being afraid of being sued. Well, in a new book, author David Enrich explores how Justice Thomas's words coincide with the surge in legal threats and litigation against journalists and media outlets.
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
Okay, just to slow down a little bit, one point of contention, or it seems like over the course of many lawsuits, something that is often debated is what is considered a public figure. So in this case, what is considered a public figure?
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
Can you also define for us the malice standard? Can someone just sue and win if an article is just wrong or filled with errors? Like what is considered malice?
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
This case, as you have been saying, really did usher in really a new age of American journalism as we know it today. I mean, Watergate was one notable story. Reporters could now go after those types of stories without fear. I'm really curious about prior to the Sullivan case, had there been lawsuits that were filed, defamation lawsuits or lawsuits about errors? Yeah.
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
The charge is being led by the powerful tech billionaires, corporations and our president, who made clear his intent back in 2016 on the campaign trail.
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
Let's get into the current day effort to dismantle Sullivan. You write about the lawyers behind this effort. I'll just say the whole time I'm reading about them in your book, I mean, it really feels and sounds like something out of a movie. Share a little bit about how they are moving in this moment behind the scenes, two of them in particular, Tom Clare and Libby Locke.
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
And can you remind me the around the year again? I'm sorry, as I'm following you.
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
You know, there's an argument to be made that Like in the case of the Rolling Stone article, there's a lot of shoddy or questionable reporting out there. I think someone from the Heritage Foundation told you that if an outlet is publishing a story that is accurate and newsworthy, then they don't have to worry about being sued. Really, the case that you're making is that that's not enough.
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The Campaign To Silence Journalists & Undermine Free Speech
How is that not enough, especially in a world where we really can't agree on what is accurate or newsworthy?
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Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley, and my guest today is actress Danielle Deadweiler.
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Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
As part of your teaching practice.
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Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
Because what were you teaching in elementary school?
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Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
There is a moment where they first experience Wilson's work, August Wilson, and they talk about it in a romantic way, in a way that almost was like an awakening. Do you remember when you first encountered his plays?
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Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
For colored girls who have considered suicide when the rainbow is enough. Is enough. Did you quit right on the spot teaching? Did I?
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Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
Our guest today is actor Danielle Deadweiler. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
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Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
My guest is Danielle Deadweiler. She stars in The Piano Lesson, a new film on Netflix. It's an adaptation of August Wilson's Broadway play, directed by Malcolm Washington. Deadweiler plays the character of Bernice, a widowed single mother in conflict with her brother, Boy Willie, over the family piano.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
Boy Willie wants to sell it to buy the land the family was once enslaved on, and Deadweiler's character Bernice wants to keep it. Deadweiler is known for her ability to take on historical narratives.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
In 2022, she starred in the biographical film Till as Mamie Till, an educator and activist who pursued justice after the murder of her 14-year-old son Emmett, and the Canadian post-apocalyptic thriller Forty Acres. Deadweiler has also performed in several shows and miniseries, including Station Eleven and Watchmen.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
She got her start in theater, performing the role of Lady in Yellow in the play for colored girls who have considered suicide when the rainbow is enough. Atlanta is such a I mean, of course, it's your hometown. It was where you were born, where you were raised.
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Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
But it's also like you keep your feet firmly on the ground there, even though, you know, you now you're you're a bona fide award nominated actor. You could be in L.A. You can be in New York. What keeps you grounded in your hometown? Family. But you can move your family to L.A. No. No, I can't.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
I want to talk to you a little bit about the film Till. It was critically acclaimed, 2022, directed by Chinoya Chukwu. You starred as Emmett Till's mother, Mamie Till Mobley. And just to remind folks, Emmett was murdered in 1955 when he was 14 for allegedly flirting with a white woman while visiting his family in Mississippi, Money, Mississippi. I want to play a clip from this movie.
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Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
So the movie starts with Emmett preparing for his train trip from his home of Chicago to Mississippi. And Mamie, his mother, makes a point to give him some directos on how to be while he's down there. So in this scene, you're talking to him. Emmett is played by Jalen Hall on how to act while he's down south. Let's listen.
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Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
That was my guest today, Danielle Deadweiler, along with actor Jalen Hall and the 2022 film Till. And in that moment that we just hear, when you tell him to make himself small, then he kind of does it like a joke. He's a 14-year-old boy, like he squinches down and kind of makes fun of it.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
And there is so much power in that scene, in his performance, in the performance that you give, because it's everything that you're saying in between the words, the nervous way that you fuss with his tie, the way that you're trying to save his life, casually saying these things. but you're trying to backstop something that you know is a potential.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
And is it true that for the audition you submitted a real self-tape using your own son as a stand-in for this very scene?
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
You know, what's remarkable with this film is that you all chose to show us the interior of Mamie. And, you know, the thing about Emmett Till's story is that I think for so many Black Americans, like, he's deeply embedded in our consciousness because we know that story as a cautionary tale, but we also just learn it as a piece of history. It sparked, like, what we knew as the civil rights.
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Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
And how did you prepare to play her?
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Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
Because you were in the theater scene in Atlanta.
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Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
Did you go to that as a child? And can you talk a little bit about what that is?
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
If you're just joining us, my guest is award-winning actor Danielle Deadweiler. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air, and today my guest is actor Danielle Dedweiler. She stars in the new film The Piano Lesson, an adaptation of August Wilson's Broadway play.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
She's also appeared in the HBO Max dystopian series Station Eleven, Watchmen, the Netflix western The Harder They Fall, and the critically acclaimed film Till, where she portrayed Mamie, the mother of Emmett Till, whose brutal murder in the 50s became a flashpoint in the civil rights movement.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
One of the most powerful scenes in Till was watching your character, Mamie, see her son's mutilated body for the first time. And it's such an intimate scene because, of course, Mamie sparked this new era of civil rights movement by deciding to have an open casket so we could see, so the world could see what was done to her son.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
And the intimacy, though, of being able to see it first with you, it was such a powerful scene. Can you take me to when you first saw this? It was a prosthetic. It was makeup. But the full result of that and seeing his body for the first time, even as you're an actor, but as a person who had lived with this story all of your life.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
You take on historical characters so well, and you've shed some light on, like, that infusion of history that you learned as a young person growing up in the South. Like, I can feel all of that in your work. Do you have a soft spot for period pieces? Is this intentional work? Like, will we see you take on everybody from Reconstruction on, you know?
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
Let's talk a little bit about the piano lesson because the story goes like this. There's boy Willie who has this idea that selling the family piano and buying land in Mississippi with that money is going to maybe unlock power and prosperity. And your character, Bernice, wants to preserve this hard-won freedom by keeping the family piano.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
Are you taking on Otis Redding's story, his wife, is that right, or...? That is right. That is true. The Otis and Zelma.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
Danielle Deadweiler, thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Danielle Deadweiler stars in the new Netflix film, The Piano Lesson. This is Fresh Air. Our book critic Maureen Corrigan's picks for the best books of the year range from alternative history to suspense and satire to some of the most extraordinary letters ever written. Here's her list.
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Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
But there's this undercurrent, and the undercurrent is the fact that they're living during Jim Crow. Can you talk about the symbolism of the piano as an heirloom to articulate this larger story of this time period, a Black family in 1930s Pittsburgh.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
Danielle Deadweiler now stars in the new Netflix adaptation of August Wilson's The Piano Lesson as Bernice, a widowed single mother living in 1930s Pittsburgh, locked in a fierce battle with her brother, Boy Willie, over the family's heirloom piano. It was a family production behind the scenes.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. Find her list on our website, npr.org slash fresh air. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
And when you say erotic, you don't mean like sexual erotic.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
And Maritha's her daughter, right?
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
Right. That trauma, that loss, one of the losses is Bernice and Boy Willie's father, Boy Charles, who died over this piano. And I want to play a clip. It's a climactic point in which you're speaking to your brother about the choices your father made and the harm it caused.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
And in this scene, you're talking to boy Willie, played by John David Washington, who is really, really trying to persuade you to let him sell this piano. And let's listen.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
Denzel Washington produced it, his son Malcolm directed, and his other son John David stars opposite Deadweiler as the boisterous boy Willie, an enterprising sharecropper from Mississippi who wants to sell the piano to use the money to buy the land his ancestors worked on as slaves. Deadweiler's character Bernice insists the piano stay in the family.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
That was my guest today, Danielle Deadweiler, in the film The Piano Lesson. Oh, that was such a powerful scene, Danielle. And can you describe the burden you carry in this story, your role as you're really the sole woman besides your young daughter in this narrative? Right.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
She's known for her powerhouse performances in shows like the HBO Max dystopian series Station Eleven, the Netflix Western The Harder They Fall, and the critically acclaimed film Till, where she portrays Mamie, the mother of Emmett Till, whose brutal murder in the 50s became a flashpoint in the civil rights movement.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
I've heard you say that you overprepared for this role. And I was just wondering what that meant. How did you overprepare?
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
Right, John David had performed in the Broadway production, and of course we know Samuel L. Jackson and many of the other characters as well.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
Does that mean like in a literal sense, like you're carrying on the script with you? In a literal sense.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
As the siblings battle it out, they are haunted by the ghosts of their past. Danielle Deadweiler grew up performing, but didn't start her professional career as an actor. She has three master's degrees and spent time teaching elementary school before returning to the stage.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
in the same way that bernice is haunted and and the family is haunted by sutter it's um it's on you uh until you're until you're not with it anymore and it takes time to release that too oh i can imagine because you all have wrapped from this um production a while ago you you've now done probably many more productions since then but just a few yeah it takes you a
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
to let it come off you, to truly exit from the work.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
You know, Danielle, everyone who has ever worked with you, including director Malcolm Washington, he calls you a physical actor. And I was trying to figure out what that meant. I think I understand it in the context of theater. There's so much physicality there. And it's very evident in watching you in all of your work. Like, you convey so much meaning with your eyes.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
But what does it mean physically? For you, when you hear that you're a physical actor, what does that mean?
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
You started off as a dancer as a young girl.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
Her first big break was as Lady in Yellow in the play for colored girls who have considered suicide when the rainbow is enough. Danielle Deadweiler, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. I am very curious. You know, almost every Black actor in theater that I've spoken to talks about this moment.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
Can you take me to that moment when you realized, when you decided, I need to act as a career? Because you were on the academic track. So you were a dancer as a young child, moved into theater. It was always something you did and loved to do, but you never really saw it as a career. You went to school, got two degrees, teaching elementary school, and then having this... Okay. Three. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
And then teaching. Sorry. Don't want to leave out that third one. No, I'm laughing at myself.
Fresh Air
Actor Danielle Deadwyler 'Overprepared' For 'The Piano Lesson'
Well, you did three degrees. I mean, you're deep in academia at this point, teaching kids. Take me to that moment when you decided, I need to be in this world as a performer.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
In 2002, at 29, he became the youngest person to win an Academy Award for Best Actor. He's a regular staple in Wes Anderson films, having starred in five of them, including The French Dispatch, Fantastic Mr. Fox, and The Grand Budapest Hotel. The Brutalist just won the Golden Globe for Best Motion Picture Drama and And Adrian Brody, one for Best Actor in a Motion Picture Drama.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
The use of silence in both of the films is also really powerful. In The Pianist, the silence is because Spielman is alone in his hiding from the Nazis. But in The Brutalist, from my view, the silence plays another role. It plays a lens into the life of an immigrant.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
Like on a very practical sense, when you are coming to a new country and you don't speak the language well, you are other, you are an outsider. As you're saying, like that's a lonely experience. And so there are probably huge swaths of time where there is silence, especially when you don't have your family with you.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
Our guest today is award-winning actor Adrian Brody. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
There are so many layers to this film, many of which are personal to you. Your mother is a Hungarian refugee who fled the revolution in 1956 and started again here in the United States. Can you take me to that day that you first got the script? And was the connection immediate?
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
Okay, I want to ask you about a topic that is very NPR interesting. Your collaborations with the much-beloved filmmaker Wes Anderson. You starred in about five of his movies, is that right?
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
Can you remind us of how the two of you began working together?
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
Yeah, I think Jeffrey Wright noted that there's a kind of traveling circus that Wes is the ringmaster of because he does have many of the same actors who appear in his films. And on the set actually treats you all very much like family with these dinners that happened after dinner.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
after filming you have talked a bit about this in the past but there's also like this playfulness and specificity in the way that Wes Anderson shoots his films and um you have to be a lot of things like you have to be ironic and cheeky while on camera um and you have to do all this while while staying in like a single shot I was wondering is there a scene or a time um
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
in one of his movies that you remember, that really challenged you in this regard?
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
What does that mean for you as an actor as you're in that shot? Well,
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. In a stunning new film, my guest Adrian Brody plays a Hungarian refugee who escapes post-war Europe and arrives in the U.S. with dreams of rebuilding his life. The Brutalist is a multi-layered story that runs three hours and 35 minutes long with a 15-minute intermission. And for me, the time flew by.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
If you're just joining us, my guest is Oscar and Golden Globe winning actor Adrian Brody. We're talking about his new film, The Brutalist, which just won the Golden Globe for Best Motion Picture Drama. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
I know you've been acting since you were very young. How old were you when you first started?
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
12 years old is a remarkably young age to feel so directed and passionate in what you do. Were your parents leading you? Were you leading the charge? How did it come about that you took this on at that age?
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
What did your mother share with you about her experience immigrating here?
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
It wasn't just a public school. You're talking about the school, the high school that the film Fame was based on, right? That's where you went to high school.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
What was that first role? What were your roles when you were first starting out at 12?
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
You talk quite a bit about your mother and your father's influence. Your mother, this noted photographer. She used to be a staff photographer for the Village Voice, you say. People will say to you, oh, you are the son of Sylvia because she's so well-respected. And your father is an educator. But I'm curious, growing up, how did your mother's work and seeing her in her creativity change?
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
maybe influence your thoughts on the perceptions on what you could be? And had you thought about being anything else? Was acting just like a foregone conclusion?
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
Well it also strikes me that both of you all are observers in that regard.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
Has your mom seen this film yet? And if so, what's been her reaction to it?
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
Adrienne Brody, it's been a real pleasure to talk with you about this latest work and your work overall. Thank you so much.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
Adrian Brody stars in the award-winning film The Brutalist. It's now playing in select theaters, including IMAX, and opens nationwide on January 17th. Coming up, Critic at Large John Powers reviews Baby Girl, starring Nicole Kidman. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
Extreme weather disasters like wildfires and floods can devastate communities. On the Sunday story from Up First, we ask, are there places that just aren't safe to live anymore? People are going to die. They will be me and my neighbors, and I don't want that to happen. How we respond to disasters in an era of climate insecurity. Listen now on the Up First podcast from NPR.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
The new movie Baby Girl by Helena Raine is a drama about a successful married businesswoman who begins an affair with an intern half her age. Currently in theaters, it stars Nicole Kidman in a turn that has made her one of this year's awards frontrunners. Our critic at large, John Powers, says that this erotic drama pulls you right in, but isn't quite as daring as its lead performance.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
John Powers reviewed the new film Baby Girl, starring Nicole Kidman. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, Oscar-winning actor Tilda Swinton. In the room next door, she stars as a woman who intends to end her life after her cancer treatment fails. She'll talk about death, grief, her love of costumes and androgynous style, and why she doesn't think of herself as an actor. I hope you'll join us.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shurock directs the show.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
Right. You know, the other thing I'm hearing from you is because you say that like you were made for this role, that you were able to, through your life, just in your mom's way of being, understand that immigrant experience of coming here with nothing and trying to make a life out of it.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
Directed by Brady Corbet, the film explores the harsh realities of the American dream. And it's visually stunning, shot on a format known as VistaVision. It's what Alfred Hitchcock used to film North by Northwest in Vertigo. Brody portrays a fictional character named Laszlo Toth, who settles in Pennsylvania in 1947.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
They point that out. What's the thing that they say to you that reminds you?
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
The film is set in Philadelphia, but am I right that it was shot in Hungary because of the environment in Budapest? It was like the closest thing to recreating that time period, that kind of minimalist, almost bleak post-World War II aesthetic. Had you spent a lot of time there before?
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
I want to play a clip so folks can hear a little bit from the movie. But first, I want to just set up. Your character, Laszlo, arrives in the U.S. in 47. And he goes to stay with his cousin in Philly, who's been in the U.S. for a couple of years now. And he owns a furniture shop named Miller and Sons. And I'm saying that because that is not your cousin's name. He does not have sons.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
where he meets a wealthy industrialist, played by Guy Pearce, who recognizes his talent and hires him to create a community center in honor of his mother. However, the relationship between the two comes at a cost.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
But he notes that Americans love a simple name and they also love a family business. So your character works for his cousin designing furniture for the store. And then one day, the son of a wealthy businessman asks you to redesign his father's library as a surprise. And when the father, Harrison Lee Van Buren, who's played by Guy Pearce, returns home and sees this library, he's furious.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
He refuses to pay. This sends your character into a spiral until a little while later, Lee Van Buren searches and finds your character shoveling coal and He apologizes. He asks him to be a part of this new project to create a community center in honor of his deceased mother.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
And in this scene I'm about to play, Van Buren asks your character why he chose architecture as a profession when he lived in Hungary. Van Buren, played by Pierce, speaks first.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
The sweeping nature of The Brutalist is reminiscent of Brody's work in The Pianist, where he captivated audiences and the Academy in 2002 with his stirring performance as a Jewish pianist from Warsaw who survived the Holocaust by hiding from the Nazis. Adrian Brody has been in a slew of films and television shows. His breakout role was in Spike Lee's 1999 film Summer of Sam.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
That's my guest today, Adrian Brody, in the new film The Brutalist. He's in that scene with Guy Pearce. And you're known, you're pretty well known for going the extra mile to embody your characters, in particular with The Pianist. You did all sorts of stuff. You gave up your apartment. You put your stuff in storage. You moved to Europe. You learned to play the piano.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
I think all the headlines talked about how you starved yourself. I think you lost like 30 pounds. And you do this with a lot of your films. For the movie Dummy, you literally slept with a dummy to play a ventriloquist.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
Were there any things in particular for this role that you kind of refashioned your life for to really embody Laszlo?
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
How did that role give you insight? Because I will tell you, I watched The Pianist again, and then I watched The Brutalist. And so I would kind of watch them back to back. And of course, as you said, yeah, there are some heavy times, but really like a very, it was really important for me to watch it that way. And I'm glad I did.
Fresh Air
Adrien Brody Was Made For 'The Brutalist'
As you said, they are two very different films and your characters are different characters. But they do feel like to me that they are speaking to each other. I don't know if that's the right way to put it. Maybe it's that they both hit a similar emotional note. I'm wondering how you see that.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Almost like he moved in quite literally and became what you needed in that moment. Can you share what it meant to have a friend like that during such a profound time in your life?
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
What did that look like? Because I think you said, like, you described Jeremy as serious enough to hold the weight of a child's broken heart, which is so powerful, and sensitive enough to approach her through play.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
It also seems to make sense. It comes together because now we have known him as his star, his risen, to be such an intense actor and taking... taking his craft and his work so seriously. I can just imagine how serious he took play.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Our guest today is award-winning actor Michelle Williams. Back after a short break, I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. At a time of sound bites and short attention spans, our show is all about the deep dive. We do long-form interviews with people behind the best in film, books, TV, music, and journalism.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Here our guests open up about their process and their lives in ways you've never heard before. Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Let's go back to the Dawson's Creek days, okay? So your breakout role was as Jen Lindley. She's this rebellious girl from New York City who goes to Capeside to live with her conservative grandmother. You were 16 years old, right, when the series started? I was, yes, 16. It just sounds like it was a big moment for you in understanding who you are and your taste.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
What was it about that experience that kind of was that flashpoint for you?
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Dying for Sex is also a story about friendship. Jenny Slate plays Nikki, Molly's best friend, who becomes her caretaker after Molly leaves her loving but emotionally unavailable husband. And at times, their friendship feels like the real love story. And did I mention that this is a comedy?
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
I need to back up, and I think why I sounded surprised when you said that Mary Beth opened up your ideas of what you could be. Because to be emancipated at 15, and you did that so that you could be able to work, right? Because child labor laws prevented you from working unless you were on your own. Yes. That takes, it seems like, a tremendous amount of self-assuredness.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Like, who were you back then? Was that your idea? Was that your parents' idea?
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Because you didn't go to formal school, of course, now you've lived the school of life like 10 times over, right? But do you feel any insecurity about that? Or does that ever come up for you where you're thinking about like, this is a bit of knowledge that maybe if I had gone to school, I would have known it? Oh, all the time.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
One of my favorite movies that you mentioned of yours is Blue Valentine, for which you were nominated for an Academy Award. It stars you and Ryan Gosling. And just to set it up for folks who have not seen it, it's about the disintegration of a young couple's marriage. And it cuts between their early relationship when everything was just beautiful and rosy to the painful unraveling years later.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Michelle Williams has spent her career exploring the complexities and inner lives of women, from her breakout role as Jen Lindley on Dawson's Creek to Gwen Verdon in Fosse Verdon and the role of Mitzi, Steven Spielberg's mother in The Fablemans. She's been nominated five times for an Academy Award and has won two Golden Globes and took home an Emmy for her performance in Fosse Verdon.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
And you describe this as one of the most painful and rewarding experiences of your life. It helped you get a sense of the kind of work you wanted to pursue. Can you say more about that?
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Okay, because the director, Derek Cianfrance, he would have you guys just ad-lib in many instances. How would he do that? Give me an example. Yeah, he organized our chaos.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
I want to play a scene from Blue Valentine. In this clip, you and Ryan are near the end of your marriage, and you're both standing in the kitchen, and he is pleading for you to rethink leaving him, to think about your young child. And for listeners, you're going to hear a sound of banging, and it's Ryan's character, Dean, banging against a wall. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
A warning for those who might have children in the room. We will be talking about sex and pleasure during this conversation. Michelle Williams, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you so much for having me.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
That was my guest today, Michelle Williams, along with Ryan Gosling and Blue Valentine. The cultural critic Hilton L. said about you, I've heard this a couple of different times, but he says, like, it's like you're the real person playing themselves in a movie or a show. And I understand that because in the same way that I felt seeing you in Dying for Sex, I feel in Blue Valentine.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Like, it feels so real and so raw. A lot of this film, as I mentioned, was just heavily ad-libbed. Tell me about this scene in particular.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
I am thrilled to have you. You heard me say I needed to watch this series alone. You know, me and my husband, the wonderful thing about this job is we get previews and we kind of watch it together, kind of like a date night, you know. And after that first episode, I said I have to watch it alone. I watched the whole series by myself.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
This is so fascinating, Michelle, because what you're saying is your work is sort of instructive in your life versus the other way around. Like oftentimes it's lived experience, you bring that to the screen, and that's why it feels so authentic. So how are you able to bring such an authentic experience to something like a marital strife unraveling?
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Has there ever been a case where you've played a character and then elements of that character, you're like, I'm going to make this a part of who I am in my day-to-day life? No. I think so. I think you always want to take something and put it in your pocket. Yeah. Is there one you can think of in particular?
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking to award-winning actor Michelle Williams. We're talking about her new limited series that she stars in called Dying for Sex. Back after a short break, this is Fresh Air. Another character that you played that I really enjoyed was Marilyn Monroe in My Week with Marilyn.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
And what I found so fascinating, you know, I was one of those kids just like you, fascinated by Marilyn Monroe, how strong she was in her art. That was like where her strength came from, but how fragile she was at the same time. Were there any insights or aha moments you had about Marilyn? her and that sitting and embodying her.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Because one of the other things about this role is that you had to construct a Marilyn outside of the persona.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
And then, of course, I went to him sobbing, telling him all about it. And I heard you had a similar experience after listening to the podcast that this is based on. I did.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking with award-winning actor Michelle Williams. We're talking about her new limited series that she stars in called Dying for Sex. Back after a short break, this is Fresh Air. I want to ask you about a really big moment in 2019, your Emmy Award speech when you won Outstanding Lead Actress in a Limited Series for Fosse-Verdon.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
I want to play a little bit of it and then we'll talk about it briefly on the other side. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. You know, sometimes a show reaches out and grabs you by the collar with its honesty. That's what happened after I watched the first episode of the new FX series, Dying for Sex. I knew immediately that I had to watch the rest of it alone.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
That was my guest, Michelle Williams, in 2019. I still get chills when I hear it. You were so profound and clear-eyed. I always wondered, do you practice the speech before you go up there? Because that's such a detailed speech. Thank you.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
These years later, do you feel, how are you feeling in this moment as someone who you like spent your career really trying to show the inner, like us as women, like you're trying to show the totality of us as human beings. And now we're in 2025, you're finding so much in your daughter, Matilda, but then there's so much in the world that we're up against.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Now, five years later, how are you six years later? What are you reflecting on when you hear that speech?
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Are you feeling optimistic? No, are you? I'm thinking about what you said about your daughter. I feel optimism when I look at my kids. Yeah, I feel optimistic about them. Yeah. I feel optimistic when I watch shows like Dying for Sex, which was hugely meaningful to me. And you said, like, you take a piece of every project and character and you grow with it and it goes to the next thing for you.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
What are you taking away from dying for sex? Pleasure, baby, pleasure. Yeah. Get it.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Man, this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being here. Michelle Williams stars in the FX series Dying for Sex, now streaming on Hulu. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, New York Times reporter Eric Lipton on how the Trump family's business ventures capitalize on the president's position and stand to directly benefit him.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
This includes foreign deals from luxury hotels in Dubai and Serbia to the Trump cryptocurrency company. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakunde, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Have you come to understand the core of that emotion, where that kind of like magical thing came from within you that knew this was something you had to do?
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Yes, this is definitely a series about friendship. Almost how, like, our female friendships, we can have soulmates with each other. You know, we often think of that in the romantic context. Jenny Slate played your best friend. And what chemistry you guys had. I actually heard something like... I think the test read that you all did, you came, you arrived in the same outfit or something like that?
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Wait, you mean Jenny Slate? Jenny Slate. So in real life, right? You all became friends in real life.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
You seem to be someone who really values friendship, almost in a way that is kind of communal. I've heard you just talk throughout your career about the friends that you've collected over time that have become kind of like your family. That's very true.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
I needed to sit with it, to cry without feeling self-conscious, to laugh without an audience, because the show is so intimate, so distinctly human. Adapted from the Wondery podcast of the same name and based on a true story, Dying for Sex follows a woman named Molly, played by my guest today, Michelle Williams.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
I want to talk a little bit more about friendship, but I want to talk about sex for a minute, okay? Sex is a proxy for so many things, although sex in this series is kind of spoken about in a literal sense and, like, the things that you want to do before you pass. One of the things that I think I heard you say is, like, I have never had to do on screen, like, perform self-pleasure. Right.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
I wanted to ask you about that because that act is so intimate. We do it without being self-conscious because we're often alone. And here you are in front of an entire crew, right? I can imagine. What was it like? How were you able to get to that truth for yourself in those moments when you had to act out those scenes?
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
And freedom. What a profound place to be to find freedom between action and cut. Has it always been that way for you? How did you learn that lesson?
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
The sprawling land of Montana.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Molly leaves her marriage after a terminal breast cancer diagnosis and embarks on a sexual adventure. But that doesn't even scratch the surface. Yes, there is sex, sometimes kinky, a little awkward, often hilarious. But the show is really about everything surrounding it. It's about what happens when the fear of dying outweighs the fear of never having truly lived.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Was it your great-grandparents or your grandparents in Montana that you spent a lot of time with? My great-grandparents, Bessie and Herb. Yeah. How did they foster that sense of freedom and play for you, too?
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
And I don't know the answer to that yet. One of the other things I was thinking about is, you know, when I was coming of age, of course, we know like, sex is for everyone as a consenting adult. But really, the message that you're told as a woman is that sex is for men and that you're performing for them.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
This series actually made me kind of think about that in new ways at this old age that I hadn't thought about. What about for you?
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
When you're talking about Brooklyn, where you guys live. No, I think I know what you mean because I have an 18-year-old daughter. And every time I listen to she and her friends, I think like, wow. I mean, they're just so far and beyond where I was at that age.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
One of the things that I, in preparing for this interview with you, I found so remarkable is there are so many projects that are brought to you, that are offered to you. And you draw that line where you say, if it's going to interfere with your role as a mother, I can't do it. And then what I think is also an amazing thing is that many of the times folks have said, well, we will accommodate that.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
It's about how trauma gets stored in the female body. It's about reclaiming pleasure, even after we've been told that it doesn't belong to us. In this scene that I'm about to play, Molly has just learned that her breast cancer has returned and is now stage four. She begins meeting with a palliative care counselor for support.
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
If you can't be a part of this series by moving across the country or the world, we'll move to where you are. I find that remarkable. And I just wanted to know, how did you come to that sense of self and strength and fortitude that says, I'm going to make this deliberate line in the sand between my career and my family?
Fresh Air
Michelle Williams Insists On Finding Pleasure & Humor Alongside Pain
Thinking back to something you were saying about friendship and that communal connection that you've been able to foster and feel with friends, your eldest daughter, Matilda's dad, is the late Heath Ledger. And you've spoken so beautifully about your friend, an award-winning actor, Jeremy Strong, how he was such a strong presence in your life after Heath's death.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And if you're ever in the French Quarter in New Orleans, chances are you've spotted my guest today, clarinetist and vocalist Doreen Ketchins. For over 30 years, she's performed on the corner of Royal and St. Peter Street, four days a week, sometimes 12 hours a day, with her band, Doreen's Jazz New Orleans.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
Do you have your own take on that favorite, on your favorite Armstrong song? And if so, can you play a little bit of it, not the whole thing, but just a bit?
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
Thank you so much for that. I mean, you're nicknamed all of these names, you know, Lady Louie for a reason. And that's very clear, some of the reasons why. But I'm very curious to know, when did you first discover yourself in Armstrong? Do you remember when you first heard that within his music yourself?
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
A few years ago, Ketchins fulfilled her dream of performing at the Kennedy Center. She's also played with orchestras around the world. Doreen Ketchins, welcome to Fresh Air. Thanks for having me. I want to offer my sincerest condolences on the loss of your husband, Lawrence, who just died this past January. And I had the pleasure of going down the rabbit hole of watching your performances.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
Our guest today is jazz clarinetist and vocalist Doreen Ketchins. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
Doreen, you're a fixture in the French Quarter of New Orleans, but tell us a little bit more about the area that you grew up in.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
And aside from being utterly captivated, I was also just taken by what felt like magic watching the two of you performing together. Are you still performing? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
I mean, what kinds of stuff did you all sell? You sold all the kinds of sweets that were a part of that contest. But what did the kids come there for?
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
Please tell the story of how the clarinet became your instrument, because it's an infamous story that you tell, that you started playing to get out of a pop quiz in elementary school.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is clarinetist and vocalist Doreen Ketchins. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. You're classically trained. When did jazz become your genre?
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
It seemed like there was such a great love between the two of you, and your love language was the music. You all performed together for many decades, and I think maybe a beautiful way to start our conversation is to actually hear a little bit of the two of you. I watched this video of you two performing for the New Orleans Jazz Station, WWOZ, and
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
And for those who don't know, I mean, he's a legend, but he was an acclaimed pianist and educator and his sons, of course, were. are legends in jazz, too.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
So that's how I started playing the jazz. Is it possible for you to play us something to give us an example of the difference between the classical clarinet that you were really into before Lawrence and then what you ultimately came to do?
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
So, you know. There's this tradition in New Orleans that's associated with the celebration of the dead or recently departed. I mean, really, Mardi Gras is the ultimate celebration of death and renewal. And you grew up seeing these second-line parades happen and watching... other loved ones and music being such a part of that grieving process.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
And there you are, playing the clarinet and singing, and Lawrence was playing sousaphone and the drums at the same time. I don't actually think I've ever seen that in my life. I was thinking, how? Can I play a little bit of that performance? Yes, please. The song is House of the Rising Sun.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
And I'm just thinking about that when I'm thinking about Lawrence and his legacy.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
Have you been out in the street performing since he passed?
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
Doreen, let's take a short break. And if you're joining us, my guest is clarinetist and vocalist Doreen Ketchins. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. A very high moment that listeners might be familiar with is your performance in 2023 at the Kennedy Center. Ted Koppel and CBS Sunday Morning followed you for that big night.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
That was my guest clarinetist and vocalist Doreen Ketchins performing at the Kennedy Center in 2023. My God, Doreen, have you ever or anyone ever counted how long the amount of time that you can keep a note?
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
Doreen, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you, and I really appreciate you taking the time in the midst of your grief to share your beautiful love story and the beautiful music that the two of you all made together. And I want to end maybe by asking you about this song that is on your latest CD that was Lawrence's. Can you tell us about it?
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
That's Doreen Ketchins with her band, Doreen's Jazz New Orleans, from their album, Walking Through the Streets. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, two experts join us to explore the rapid dismantling of diversity, equity, and inclusion, commonly known as DEI. across public and private sectors.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
Once hailed as markers of social progress, conservative critics now portray DEI as emblematic of excessive woke culture. Join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at nprfreshair. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
Today's senior producer is Teresa Madden. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Susan Nakundi directed today's show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
That was my guest today, Doreen Ketchins and her late husband Lawrence playing House of the Rising Sun. Doreen, what a remarkable performance. I mean, as I mentioned, Lawrence is playing the drums and blowing into that sousaphone, which is a type of tuba, at the same time. How did he figure out that he had that talent?
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
One thing I noticed is that you've got a growl that, you know, it's not only present in your singing voice, but we also heard it while you were playing the clarinet. How do you do that? Like you make your clarinet growl.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
How did you two start playing on the streets of the French Quarter?
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
Doreen Ketchins has many nicknames, Lady Louie, Queen Clarinet, and Miss Satchmo, nods to her passionate performances of Dixieland and traditional jazz, and for her ability to hit and hold high notes for long periods of time, like the great trumpeteer Louis Armstrong. Ketchins has performed for four U.S. presidents, Bill Clinton, George H.W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, and Jimmy Carter.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
I love watching the videos of you and your band. And I was just thinking about that experience of seeing basically like a concert, these expert musicians in an accessible space when you're out on the street. But was it always so welcoming out there? I know it can be like notoriously competitive among musicians jockeying for space when you're a street musician.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
You know, to watch you perform, you really are. You're like putting your whole body into it. Your eyes are closed. And I mean, I guess that's not unusual. I mean, when you are like intensely focused on your instrument performance. I've heard you say when you're playing, you're constantly digging for more information within yourself.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
And I was like, wow, really taken by that, but also wonder more of what you mean.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
And initially, she played classical clarinet before her late husband, Lawrence Ketchins, introduced her to jazz while the two were students at Loyola University. Lawrence was an accomplished musician in his own right, too. As part of Doreen's band, he played the tuba, valve trombone, drums, and piano, becoming a major attraction for his ability to play the sousaphone and drums at the same time.
Fresh Air
Mardi Gras With New Orleans Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens
Is there a favorite Armstrong? I know that's like asking, is there a favorite child? But is there a favorite song of his that you love or you go back to often?
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
That was my guest, Ariana Grande, starring as Galinda in the musical film Wicked. Ariana, Galinda is kind of like the foil for Elphaba. She represents conformity and societal expectations, while Elphaba embodies this rebellious thing. You know, she's trying to be an individual. She's kind of forced to be because she is seen as such. Are there elements of both of them?
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
It's so interesting that you came prepared to audition for both of them, knowing that you were there for one. But do you see elements of yourself in both characters or either of the characters?
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Our guest today is Oscar-nominated actress and performer Ariana Grande. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Is it true that the two of you insisted on, because Cynthia is also an amazing vocalist as well.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Well, the two of you all, is it true that you insisted on singing on set? Yes. Which doesn't always happen when there's a musical movie happening.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Just all the elements that were part of the production.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
You're like a... A savant when it comes to sound, huh? Would you say that?
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Well, I think it's interesting. I have met a few people, but not a lot of people who comment on all of the sounds around it. I do love sound. Not just the vocals.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
I'm just imagining a young little Ariana in front of the television looking at Judy Garland. Was there a particular line of hers or any part of the film that comes to you that you used to impersonate?
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
When did you and Cynthia realize that you all were friends? I think that any of us who watch the press tour, we can see clearly the connection that you all have. But when did you understand that you're more than colleagues, that you all were friends, too?
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
I don't want to overspeak, but did you ever feel like people thought of you as a pop star and maybe not hefty enough to take on a role like this?
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Ariana Grande says that from the moment she first saw the musical on Broadway at 10 years old, her life was divided into two chapters, before Wicked and after. True. This is true.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Oscar-nominated actress and performer Ariana Grande. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
You arrived in L.A. at 14 years old? Yes. Yeah, from Florida, because that's where you were raised. Yes.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Yeah, and Victoria's just to let folks know that's a Nickelodeon show. There are lots of parents who listen to this show who are like, oh yeah, I know Victoria's. Yes, for sure.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
As well as Sam and Kat, yes, including my home. But do you remember... Who you were back then when you were telling folks, I want to sing and I want to do soulful music, right? I want to do R&B music. Take us to that decision.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
You know, this movie has become a cultural phenomenon. And it's so interesting how the subtext really speaks to the time period that we're in. It's a timeless story, but it also is very timely. Yeah, very timely. You first saw Wicked on Broadway at 10?
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
What was it about R&B music in those early days that really spoke to you?
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Yeah. You know, there's a dichotomy in your persona because some of your music is sweet. Some of it is soulful. And some of it, Ariana, is pretty raunchy. Yeah. Like, I mean, I was listening to 3435 and I was like, oh my gosh, can I blush? If I could, I think I am.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
You kind of sit in a very rare space. That song, okay, it's really interesting to know that it was kind of a joke. But when you do sit in that space, it's very Meg Thee Stallion, Lil' Kim. Like it's a nod back to that type of lyricism, which some feel like is a feminist cry. You know, like it's ownership of one's body, of one's persona. Okay, is that how you see it?
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
We talked a little bit about your talent for impersonations from Shakira to Celine Dion. And I was wondering, when did you know you had that talent to do impersonations? You mentioned Judy Garland. But when you knew like, oh, no, I actually have this skill to impersonate others.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
What was it about Wicked? Because I know that you were somewhat of a theater kid. You were seeing lots of musicals, but this one in particular really spoke to you.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Our guest today is Oscar-nominated actress and performer Ariana Grande. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
One of the things about a movie like Wicked, I mentioned right off the top that it's a cultural phenomenon, is that it has now become for young people like the same thing that the Broadway play was for you at a young age, but in a more accessible way because it's a movie. So kids of all walks of life who won't ever be able to see a theater production can now be a part of this in a real way.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Mm-hmm. You've had firsthand experiences with people who shared with you how much this movie means to them. Can you share some of that with me?
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Can you talk a little bit about why it's a safe haven? Because, you know, growing up, I always would see the theater kids and I would feel a little bit of envy because I thought like they have something special going on there.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Yes, those nerds. But also like there was something that they were tapping into with each other that kind of was a barrier to the world. Right.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
So many kids have said it's also saved their lives.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Ariana Grande, thank you so much for this conversation. It's been such a pleasure to meet you. Thank you, Tanya. And congratulations on your Oscar nomination.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Ariana Grande has been nominated for her role in the movie musical Wicked. The film has received 10 Oscar nominations. It's now available on demand and can still be found in theaters. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, one of Pete Hexeth's first actions as defense secretary was to declare the end of the DEI era. A serious problem, though, is that the military is facing a severe shortage of recruits.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
We'll talk about why, how the military is attempting to reverse the trend, and how vulnerable to attack we've become with Dexter Filkins of The New Yorker. I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nakundi, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
When you received word that you got the role, you reached out to Chynoweth, right? Yes.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. The musical Wicked is a top contender at this year's Academy Awards, with 10 Oscar nominations, including Best Supporting Actress for my guest today, Ariana Grande.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Wicked has become somewhat of a cultural phenomenon, introducing new layers of the story of Oz that really challenge audiences to look beyond surface appearances and question preconceived notions of good and evil. Ariana Grande stars as the privileged and popular Galinda, who develops a friendship with Elphaba, played by Cynthia Erivo, born with green skin and ostracized by society.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
You could see the smile in her eyes. And I could feel it.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
That is, because you all have so much chemistry. We're going to talk about that a little bit later.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
I want to play a little bit from the film so that folks can get an idea of your voice training that you're talking about. Oh, sure. I mean, you are known for your four-octave range, but... Your acting is on full display in the film, but as you mentioned, like you really had to get your voice in shape for this. And so let's play a little bit of No One Mourns the Wicked.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
You mentioned all of the practice and the preparation for your voice to be able to take on the music. I'm always interested when folks have such a special voice like yours, this four octave range, when you discover that you actually had that range.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
I did too. I grew up that way too, by the way.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Yeah. I mean, all the time. Yeah. So so you all would would you all just a special occasions or just sometimes just get up there? Oh, every day.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
I want to know what types of songs you and your dad would sing on karaoke.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Yeah, you too. Would you sing together ever?
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
As a prequel to The Wizard of Oz, the film is set years before Dorothy arrives in Oz, and it charts the transformations of Elphaba into the Wicked Witch of the West and Galinda into Glinda the Good. Here's Grande, as Galinda, singing Popular, a song that gives insights into her character.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Yes. Did you have favorites? Because I know that when you decided and knew that you wanted to be a singer, I read that you actually sent demos with you singing lots of different folks music like Whitney Houston and Celine Dion and those folks.
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Yes. How often do you take your voice to that whistle octave range?
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
It has to serve a purpose in a song, in a moment where you're wanting to take the listener to a place. Is that what you're saying?
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
Yes. What is the whistle register for those who don't know?
Fresh Air
Ariana Grande Loves Being In A 'Beautiful Coven'
I want to play another pivotal scene from the film. It's when your character, Galinda, and Elphaba first meet. And Elphaba has arrived at school and everyone reacts. They're really startled by the color of her skin, which is green. The interaction the two of you have showcases your differences because Elphaba is strong and smart and you're kind of silly and a little bit superficial. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
Your exhibit made me think about something that writer Samuel Delaney said.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
Can you clarify why you didn't want to talk with Pryor? Was it because he was so sick at that time?
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
Yes, and I've been thinking about this for the last few weeks, honestly. But he has this theory that imagination is the only shared reality and that creativity is how we manifest that shared reality. And I couldn't help but think about the limitations of language at this particular time when we can't even seem to agree on a shared reality. And I was just wondering, is that something?
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
You have to fall in love with them. At first. But then you have to interrogate that love.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
Our guest today is Pulitzer Prize-winning writer Hilton Als. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
In reading your writing about Richard Pryor, I mean, it's definitely like you are really trying to get at the core of why he was able to do what he did, be a truth teller. But are there elements of Pryor that you're still working out through your writing? I saw you just wrote a piece about his movie Jojo Dancer from the 80s just a few months ago. Yes.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
And of course, I love reading about it, but I also think like, what is it about this moment that you feel it's important to work these elements of Richard Pryor out in your writing? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
Well, I was just wondering what this means for you as a writer, if it's disorienting in any way, because you're, as a critic, as someone who is looking for that humanity, I think I heard you a few months ago on an interview talk about how you don't have a clear knowing of who we are as a collective anymore.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
And so how that impacts actually what you do and being able to tap into that clarity to write about it. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
In the case of Prince being able to sit in that silence, were there any observations that you noticed that you were able to draw out that you would not have ever? Because you're a big fan, so you know everything about the guy as you're stepping in there.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
Did you feel that for you as you walked into the room with him? That he wanted your approval?
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
And describe where you guys were and what.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Pulitzer Prize-winning writer Hilton Owls. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. Your mother, she feels so present in so much of what you do and so much of your writing. And you said in your writing that she had such an imagination for other people, but not for herself. What did you mean by that?
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
You grew up in the Brownsville section of Brooklyn. Your mom was originally from Barbados.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
Yeah, first generation. She died at 62?
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
I want to go back to your mom just a little bit because... Like in just trying to think about the human that she raised, that is you. You describe her as the most constructive listener in the world. And what did that look like? What did you learn about listening from her?
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And my guest today, Pulitzer Prize-winning writer Hilton Als, has spent decades examining how we create meaning through words, images, and the spaces in between.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
Your father you describe as being uncomfortable around other men, including his sons.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
What did that look like for you? I mean, how did that impact your sense of self in the world?
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
I wondered about that. I also wondered about it in the context of your writing because so much of your gaze or your interest is women. It's focused on powerful women.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
How does silence, in particular, the things that are unsaid, unspoken, but are very important to the narrative, how does that show up in your writing?
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
Thank you. C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C C
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
Is there silence in your life? I mean, I'm thinking about what it takes for you to come to these ideas. What is your day-to-day like? Do you carve out time for silence?
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
As a longtime staff writer at The New Yorker, his essays and profiles on figures like Toni Morrison, Joan Didion, and Richard Pryor have redefined cultural criticism, blending autobiography with literary and social commentary. In addition to being a writer, Al's is also a curator.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
One of the other topics that you write about in your essay that accompanies this particular exhibit is this idea of connoisseurship. Who gets to be an expert in evaluating what's actually beautiful, what is good? And I was thinking about how... You kind of have ultimate power within the spaces you occupy.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
Having the powers of critique and curation, I mean, I think one of my producers said, like, it's almost like the opposite of imposter syndrome. Did you always possess that sense of taste, of knowing what is good?
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
I mean, say more on what she meant by that.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
Recently, he explored language in a new gallery exhibition, The Writings on the Wall, Language and Silence in the Visual Arts, at the Hill Art Foundation in New York. The exhibit brings together the works of 32 artists across a range of media to examine how artists embrace silence. The show asks a powerful question. What do words in their absence look like?
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
This is so fascinating to me because your writing is so expansive. You surprise me. You surprise the reader, not really with the choices on who you spend time on and write about, but how you write about them. People like Joan Didion, Eminem, Prince. I think I heard you say that you primarily are interested in subjects that don't, quote, have their face yet. What do you mean by that?
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
One person that you've written quite extensively about is Richard Pryor. Uh-huh. I'm fascinated that you write about him not because, I mean, it's obvious that he was one of the most talented comedians of our time, but you write about him in such an expansive way through time. I mean, you've gone back to him many, many times.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
I'd like for you to read an excerpt from your collection of essays that was also included in your collection of essays, White Girls, which came out in 2013. And in this excerpt, it's actually called A Prior Love.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
Hilton Owls has been a staff writer at The New Yorker for over 30 years. He won the Pulitzer Prize in 2017 for his work as a theater critic, and he's the author of several books, including The Women, White Girls, and My Pinup, a genre-bending memoir essay that examines the music, persona, and cultural impact of Prince.
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
I think for many people, Pryor definitely felt like a unicorn. I mean, he joked on stage, for instance, about some of his queer sexual experiences in ways that I kind of feel like are unfathomable for someone else to do. Have you been able to point out or understand that singularity that was Pryor, that person before the fame, and why he could convey what others couldn't?
Fresh Air
Writer, Critic & Curator Hilton Als Looks For The Silences
He's curated several art installations, including a show on the late Joan Didion. Hilton Owls, welcome to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Sarah Silverman Finds The Funny In Grief
I'm Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. At a time of sound bites and short attention spans, our show is all about the deep dive. We do long-form interviews with people behind the best in film, books, TV, music, and journalism. Hear our guests open up about their process and their lives in ways you've never heard before. Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Tell me about your relationship with the word fat because, you know, it's in all of the descriptions of this show and you wrote it.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Our guest today is Natasha Rothwell, one of the season three stars of The White Lotus on HBO. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
We watch as Tanya flakes on Belinda, never funding her dream to open a spa, instead running off with another guest who goes on to con and attempt to have Coolidge's character killed. Well, in this latest season in Thailand, Belinda experiences the other side of the guest staff dynamic as a visitor taking part in a White Lotus exchange program.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
You auditioned for SNL. You ended up being a writer. Tell me a little bit about that audition and that time period, because this is, if I'm correct, this is like the time period when they were looking for a Black woman.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
You were teaching theater to what age group?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
So, yeah. So high schoolers. Was there ever a moment in those four years where you were thinking like, maybe this is my life or did you always know it's a temporary thing?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Natasha Rothwell is an award-winning actor, writer, and series creator. Her early start in comedy included a stint as a writer on Saturday Night Live during the 2014-15 season. She also starred in HBO's Insecure as Issa's hilarious and sexually liberated friend Kelly. She also served as a writer and supervising producer on the show. Natasha Rothwell, welcome to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Is there something you wrote that you are most proud of on the show?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
I actually have a clip of this. So Taraji P. Henson hosted the show in 2015. And at the time, she was starring in the Fox show Empire as Cookie Lyons. And the name of the monologue is I Made It. Let's listen to a little bit.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
I love that. Like, it's part monologue, it's part song. Did you write the song?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
It's also so real, you know, like all the things that she listed, it goes on to say like all these other things that, oh, these things you take for granted that show that I made it. She made it.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
So it was never a dream of yours, even not seeing yourself?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Pretty soon after, you started working on Insecure. Like, was that whiplash? Was it a lot different? Was it similar?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
First, let's talk a little bit about the White Lotus because fans of the White Lotus were very happy to see you return, intrigued because we know that your return means something pretty big. And this season, she's at the Thailand resort. So she's there to relax and, as I said, learn a few new things to bring back to the resort in Maui.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
So you were a writer on the show. But can you quickly tell the story of then how you came to be Kelly? Because there was a moment with everyone where it became apparent that you are Kelly.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. This has been quite a year so far for my guest, Natasha Rothwell. She returns to the third season of the popular HBO show The White Lotus. And just this past weekend, her Hulu series How to Die Alone, which she created and starred in, won an Independent Spirit Award for Best Ensemble Cast and a new scripted series.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
I want to actually play a clip to remind folks of Kelly and who she was. In this scene, she is talking about her work as an accountant. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
That's my guest, Natasha Rothwell at HBO's Insecure.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is actress, writer and series creator Natasha Rothwell. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Well, in the clip I'm about to play, your character, Belinda, shares what she's been through to a wellness expert assigned to train her, Pon Chai. played by Dom Hedrickle. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Natasha, you mentioned how you grew up with parents who were in the military. Did you move around a lot?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Your parents, they've been married over 40 years.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
You know, I mean, that's aspirational. It's goals. It's goals. Has it ever felt like... Oppressive? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
I've heard you describe yourself as neuro spicy. What does that mean?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Well, part of you kind of like being in denial about it, was it also because so many of like the descriptors are not like the things we know ADHD to be? Correct.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Natasha Rothwell, this was such a pleasure. Thank you so much.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Natasha Rothwell is an award-winning actor, writer, and series creator. She played Belinda in the current season of HBO's The White Lotus. Coming up, we remember actor Gene Hackman, who died yesterday at the age of 95. This is Fresh Air. We learned today that actor Gene Hackman has died at the age of 95.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Yesterday, authorities found the bodies of Hackman, his wife Betsy Arakawa, and their dog in their home in Santa Fe, New Mexico. We remember Gene Hackman with an interview Terry recorded with him in 1999.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Hackman was a two-time Oscar winner whose movies included Bonnie and Clyde, The Conversation, Mississippi Burning, Unforgiven, The Quick and the Dead, Superman, Hoosiers, and The Royal Tenenbaums. He made his last film in 2004 and stepped back from acting. Hackman won his first Academy Award as the violent racist narcotics detective Popeye Doyle in the 1971 film The French Connection.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
That was my guest today, Natasha Rothwell, in the latest season of The White Lotus. I have to say the music is always like the other character in the room, isn't it? It's just what Mike White does with music. It's so special. It really is. Well, Belinda is such a fascinating character.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Gene Hackman, speaking with Terry in 1999. He died yesterday at the age of 95. Fresher's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakindi, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.B. Nesper. Roberta Shurock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
I'm so interested to see how this season pays off and seeing what becomes of her because she has this veneer of sweetness that kind of hides... this sense of dejection and growing resentment that I assume that she feels by being, like, stiffed by Tanya, you know? How was it to return to her character?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
I think I heard you say that Belinda kind of represents the person you used to be.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
But that win is bittersweet because the show, which premiered last September, was canceled after just one season. While Rothwell's return to the White Lotus signals a deeper dive into the tension between entitlement and servitude, which has been present along with murder in every season of the show.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
This season is in Thailand. But, you know, something that I found so interesting is Mike White, who is the writer, the creator of The White Lotus. You know, season one, he had no idea what he had on his hands. You're just making this cool thing and you don't know how the public will receive it. I mean, it is such a hit now.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
How different was it for you on the set for this one versus the first season?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
You were shooting in Hawaii during COVID.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
How long did you guys spend in Thailand to shoot?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
There is a theme in the show of mindfulness, and there are lots of references to Buddhism. And really, for these characters, the visitors of this resort, they're coming to grips with the ugliness of who they are and their individual ways. Yeah. Did you have a spiritual experience while you were in Thailand or was it work, work, work?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Can you describe or explain, like, give an example of what you mean by that, like the differences?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
It follows the storyline of seemingly picture-perfect travelers with various dysfunctions who go to the White Lotus resort to escape. In the first season, Rothwell's character Belinda is a spa manager at the Hawaii location. She meets a wealthy visitor named Tanya, played by Jennifer Coolidge, and the two strike up a friendship. Belinda shares her dreams of opening up her own spa with Tanya.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
How to, right. Oh, that's so interesting.
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
There is a scene in the show, it's where you're waiting for dinner and you see another Black guest there. That was written into the show because you mentioned it to Mike White, right?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
There are so many themes that this series unpacks through these individual characters and their journeys. Is there any one in particular that really lights you up or you really are thinking deeply about as you're watching this series? Because it's actually quite deep when you start to think about these issues of servitude and white privilege and wealth and access and all of that?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
Natasha, it took you eight years to get this show made. And after it was announced that it was canceled, you said like, this is an undeniable hit. This is like a critical, creative, and award-winning show. Did you feel like executives gave up on it too soon?
Fresh Air
Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'
This was such an original show. It was also autobiographical in many ways. That's when she has this awakening. Like, you know, what am I doing in life? Like something similar happened to you.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
And at that time, you had already had the acting bug, right?
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
Had it already crystallized in your mind then by that time that acting was the career you wanted to go into?
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
How much money did you come to L.A. with in your pocket?
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
There's an element when you grow up in poverty that a little bit of it always stays with you.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
What are the ways that you might know that others may not even perceive?
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
And the per diem is what the studio gives you or what they give you when you're on a movie.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
I want to talk about some of your early roles because one of your first roles happened in 1997 with Robert Duvall on The Apostle. And this film, to remind people, Duvall plays Sonny. He is a Pentecostal preacher, and he's charismatic but deeply flawed. And you played this young man, Sam, who becomes a born-again Christian after you meet Duvall's character.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
I read that after you all finished filming, Duvall took you to lunch and he gave you some advice.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
Our guest today is actor Walton Goggins. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. At a time of sound bites and short attention spans, our show is all about the deep dive. We do long-form interviews with people behind the best in film, books, TV, music, and journalism.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
Here our guests open up about their process and their lives in ways you've never heard before. Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
One of the things about you as an actor that I see over and over again is that, you know, you're memorable. And every single thing that you're in, people remember you. And it's also true that you haven't gotten quite a bit of roles because you're so memorable. Because can they have this guy who's like everyone can see and know, be like the supporting actor?
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
Was that ever frustrating for you at any point in your career?
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
Did you get excited about that? Because like, I'm just thinking you've been in so many, you know, like, okay, you're in The Apostle, then The Shield, then you go into these prestige movies.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
Everybody's thinking this is the moment. Okay, I'm in a Quentin Tarantino movie. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
It's interesting. You mentioned your wife. You're going for a walk and she can see in you. You got to go to work. She can feel that restlessness in you. You all have done a project together, The Uninvited. And this is your wife's very first movie. Yes. I want to tell people a little bit about The Uninvited. So the story centers on a single evening in the Hollywood Hills.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
Rose is the main character. She's a former stage actress turned reluctant housewife. And you play her husband, Sammy. He's a Hollywood talent agent. He's like a, you know, bombastic kind of like guy. And the two of you throw this small but high stakes party at this lavish home to impress Sammy's biggest client. It's a hotshot director. Um,
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
One of the things your wife does in the writing is she illuminates really like this idea of how wealth and status really can't shut out the realities of life. That like all of the things still happen to this family despite the fact that they're wealthy and they're in this big Hollywood home. And this woman who comes that's older and is confused, she represents so many things.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
Because it's an independent film, right? You've got Pedro Pascal. There's some big names in this movie.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
You know, these are life experiences, but I can't help but think about how they're infused in what you do because you're wanting to have these human connections with people and understand people.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
And one of the things you're just known for, you're taking on comedic acting, you're taking on serious roles, you're inhabiting people that are characters, they seem like singular forces, but there's something that you are pulling from these different experiences that... Are they showing up in the work that you do? Because I feel like it is.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
Walden, that was such a beautiful moment. And she came up on stage, and then you all started dancing. But you know, the thing that really got me about that is... When you're raised by a single mom, there is nobody like you and your mother knowing what it took for you to be up on that stage.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
And I just, like, every time you get to this point, you start to get emotional. I'm just wanting to know, what is it?
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
You mentioned Boyd Crowder, and that's from the show Justified. It debuted in 2010. It ran for six seasons. Your character, Boyd, he's this charismatic outlaw. And you star alongside Timothy Oliphant, who plays U.S. Marshal Raylan Givens. And both of you are shaped by the same world, but of course you have different outcomes. Well, the scene that I want to play is from the end of the series.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
And I want to play it because it kind of goes back to something you're talking about when you keep going back to home, like the foundation of who you are. So at the end of the series, when Boyd is in prison and Raylan comes to deliver some news to him face-to-face... you all say this thing and your character speaks first. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
That's my guest today, Walton Goggins from the FX series Justified. It's the statement that echoes through the show that we dug coal together. The people, we move on, we go in different directions, but there's that tie that always holds us together. Always.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
Some of the things you said about yourself when you were young are all the things you shared, but there's also, was there a moment in time when there could have been another path for you? When you got in trouble, when you got into some things, or people that you've left behind that you dug coal together with, but have taken another path?
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
If you're just joining us, I'm talking to actor Walton Goggins. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
I want to talk a little bit about Baby Billy from The Righteous Gemstones. I just talked to Danny McBride, the creator. I know you all have now become dear friends. I know Baby Billy is like a composite of a lot of different people. You and Danny McBride went into a room together and you kind of created this person.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
I need to know more about where you got that from and like where the accent, all of it. It's like somebody I know. It's like my uncle in Mississippi, you know, like, get over here. Where did you get that from?
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley, and today my guest is Walton Goggins. He has been on a run like no other. The White Lotus, The Righteous Gemstones, Fallout, and his newest film, The Uninvited. It's the latest surge in a 30-year career built on playing some of the most magnetic and morally complex characters in film and television.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
But they come from probably the places along the way.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
The father son relationship was a prominent through line in The White Lotus. Your character, Rick, went to Thailand in search of the person who he thought was responsible for his father's death.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
It's really interesting when you talk about this place that you've come to with your own father and that character arc. But what was it like to be a part of such a series on the other side of it that really takes on these real serious societal issues through these very dysfunctional people?
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
Walton Goggins, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
Walton Goggins stars in the new film The Uninvited. It's now available for streaming on demand and in select theaters. After a short break, TV critic David Bianculli reviews the two-part HBO documentary Pee Wee as himself. This is Fresh Air. Paul Rubens, the actor best known for his alter ego of Pee Wee Herman, died in 2023 after a private six-year battle with cancer.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
Near the end of his life, Rubens collaborated on a documentary, sitting for 40 hours of intimate interviews with director Matt Wolfe. The result of that effort is the two-part HBO documentary Pee Wee as Himself, which premieres Friday, May 23rd. TV critic David Bianculli has this review.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. He reviewed the new documentary Pee Wee As Himself, premiering tomorrow on HBO. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
And you've talked about how growing up, it was you and her, and you all had each other, and she would take you when she didn't have a babysitter to the honky-tonks.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
This makes sense because you said something a while ago that you never slept more than seven days in the same bed until you were around 15 years old.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
And so now this is kind of making sense. Is that because you were in a village? You were just going from house to house? Why was that?
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
Screens weren't a big part of your life, meaning like you weren't someone who was really into movies or shows growing up, but you always sit on the porch. Was this at your mom's house on the front porch and just talk to people?
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
From the sharp-witted outlaw Boyd Crowder in Justified, to the swaggering, scheming baby Billy Freeman in The Righteous Gemstones, to a series of layered portrayals of Southern men in films including Quentin Tarantino's Django Unchained and The Hateful Eight, Goggins has talked about how he tries to bring authenticity and nuance to his roles, portraying Southern men resisting the pressure to turn them into caricatures.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
It seems like it's something that is of great value to you. One of the details that I always find funny, I've heard you say the story a couple of times that you were runner-up for the friendliest person in the mock election in high school. And the thing about that that really got me was that you hold on to that detail that you were runner-up.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
But also that that is a quality of yours that you feel is important.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
Lately, Goggins has been reflecting on the arc of his career and how his childhood has informed his approach to his craft. And when we sat down for our interview, he said, let's get into the thick of it, the real of it, life in between the roles. So that's exactly what we did. We started talking about hosting Saturday Night Live, which he did a few weeks ago.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
You know, to grow up poor, you always have dreams that, like, one day I'll be able to do this, or what would you do with this, or what would you give up in life to have a million dollars? You know, sometimes it's always those fantasies and jokes. You started working at 12 years old?
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
And you have had some really interesting jobs before you became an actor. You worked a construction site.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
Yeah. I mean, you've talked, though, about like you wanted to have money in your pocket, but you also kind of felt a little bit of insecurity, but maybe even shame about being poor.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
You spent a year in college, and I just wondered about this because you carried like an insecurity about that, that you didn't have maybe that formative education with all the classics and things like that.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
It was the day before Mother's Day, and he describes it as a high point in his career, in part because he shared the moment with his mother.
Fresh Air
Walton Goggins Was Raised By A Village
You got – wait, wait, wait. You got to tell this. So you got in the mail –
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. California Governor Gavin Newsom recently joined the Manosphere, the world of political podcasts, streams, and YouTube channels where young men have become the new MAGA vanguard.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
You said you had a theory or you found it interesting that many of these guys are comedians. Why is that? Have they just found their lane within the podcasting space?
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
And for the first few minutes of the podcast, Governor Newsom talks with him about how his niece and son both know Kirk, and how his son was especially excited that Kirk would be on Governor Newsom's show. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
Today, our guest is Andrew Marantz with The New Yorker. We'll be right back after a short break and continue our conversation. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
Let's talk a little bit about Hasan Piker. He's a Twitch star. He has millions of followers on Twitch. And for those who don't know, it's a popular streaming platform that started off being for gamers, but it's kind of really blown up and blown out of that as well, like to be much more expansive. What is Piker's background and how did you two meet?
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
How often is he streaming, too? Because I think that's really interesting, like just the span of time and the frequency.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
And you have an example of that. Like, you came to his door. You visited him. And you kind of saw this happen in real time.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
He is one of the few left-leaning stars on Twitch. Why do you think he's successful? And I should say he kicks off the thesis of your article. Like, what did you find most interesting about him as it relates to trying to lure young men who have gone MAGA to the left?
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
Okay. I want to actually play a clip of Piker. He's talking about California Governor Gavin Newsom's new podcast in this clip. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
OK, that was streamer Hassan Piker talking about California Governor Newsom's new podcast. And Andrew, one of the interesting things he says is that Democrats don't need to focus their attention on podcasting, but on addressing the needs of everyday people. And then he makes the point to say they should showcase the ways the Republicans are not helping people. Well, that one way. Yeah.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
I think there's a bunch of stuff going on here. I think it's a really important set of issues. So when someone like Hassan Piker says you can't podcast your way out of this problem if you're the Democrats. Yeah.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
Let's take a short break and we'll get back to this part of the conversation. If you're just joining us, my guest is Andrew Marantz, a staff writer for The New Yorker. And we're talking about his latest piece, The Battle for the Bros, which is a look at why many young men in America have gone MAGA and the battle on the left to bring them back. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
I want to follow the money just for a minute. Are a lot of wealthy donors funding these podcasters and influencers on the right?
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
So, Andrew, one thing President Trump always talks about how he is unfairly covered by mainstream media is. What does the coverage look like in contrast to the way he is portrayed on these social platforms? You mentioned how he's just hanging out with many of these guys.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
That was a clip from California Governor Gavin Newsom's new podcast with conservative activist Charlie Kirk. Andrew, the big response and some of the criticism, particularly from the left, is that the governor is trying to find common ground versus challenging someone like Kirk, who has said some pretty inflammatory and offensive remarks.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
And there's a very fine point to make here that the freestyle nature of Trump's persona is that what we're seeing is real and what we're being packaged in mainstream media is just that, like a packet, just edited to feed an agenda.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
Have you been listening to these podcasters since Trump took office, since we've been seeing the massive disruption in government? And how are they approaching it?
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
It actually appears that the governor is almost deferential. I'm wondering from you, how does this fit into what you've been writing about and researching about the Democrats' battle for the bros?
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
There's so much more to your article. We scratched the surface. But really, I just want to know from you. I mean, the title is The Battle for the Bros. Young men have gone MAGA. Can the left win them back? What did you come to after all of your reporting? Is it possible for the left to win them back?
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
Andrew Marantz is a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is The Battle for the Bros. This is Fresh Air. Rock critic Ken Tucker has been listening to new music releases and has reviews for new songs by Teddy Swims, nominated as Best New Artist in this year's Grammy Awards, and Benjamin Booker, who is doing interesting things with volume and distortion in his new songs.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
There's also an old pro in the mix, Neil Young, who has a new band as well as a new song that Ken says heralds some big changes. Here's his review.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
Ken Tucker reviewed new songs by Teddy Swims, Benjamin Booker, and Neil Young. If you'd like to catch up on interviews you've missed, like our conversation with Seth Rogen, who co-created and stars in the new Apple TV Plus series, The Studio, or with investigative reporter Gary Rivlin about the promise and peril of AI, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of fresh air interviews.
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The Political Battle For The Bros
And to find out what's happening behind the scenes on our show and get our producers' recommendations on what to watch, read, and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org slash fresh air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
Democrats lost support with nearly every kind of voter. But the defection that alarmed strategists the most was this significant jump in young men who voted for Trump or no candidate. And this comes at a time when men are in crisis, as you write, relative to their forefathers and their women counterparts. Men are more likely to fall behind in school.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
They're more likely to drop out of college, languish in the workforce, or die by overdose or suicide. How did the right not only tap into that grim reality, but also offer a space for male grievance?
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
The Democratic governor says the purpose of his new podcast is to have unfiltered conversations with people he doesn't always agree with. And so far, he's had on far-right media stars, many of whom were instrumental in Donald Trump winning the election.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
Well, relatable is a word that just keeps coming up in your piece. And you write about several notable personalities, influencers, streamers, podcasters. One of them is comedian and podcaster Theo Vaughn, who I personally have known since he was on MTV's Real World Rules back in the 2000s. So for most of his career, though, he has been apolitical.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
Can you talk about the power in that built-in trust through familiarity? Theo has been around for like 25 years. I mean, Donald Trump is a perfect example of this. He built a relationship with Americans as an entertaining figure for decades.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
Well, my guest today, The New Yorker staff writer Andrew Morantz, looks at how Democrats are attempting to win back the support of young men in America, those they lost during the 2024 election.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
Could you Google that? They're the proxy for the audience.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
I want to play a clip from Theo's show. But did he invite Kamala Harris during that time period when he was having all of the candidates on last summer?
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
And for his piece, Morantz spent time with several high-profile podcasters and streamers, like Hasan Piker, a leftist star on the livestream platform Twitch with more than 3 million followers, who's known for modeling modern masculinity with progressive politics.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
Well, that's part of what you wrote about in your piece is that also this perception that Democrats are elitist.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
Right. Right. Yes. You know, I mean, Trump was was embraced by pop culture by appearing at. UFC fights and football games and appearing alongside celebrities. I mean, the left did that too. Harris also had many appearances and was alongside celebrities.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
But do podcasters and influencers you spoke with really feel like it would have made a difference for Kamala Harris to make those same appearances at those same places? I'm just also thinking about... While there is like this offense against identity that it does play such a huge role in all of this as well. I mean, many of the podcasters you feature are male. Many of them are white male.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
Morantz's article, The Battle for the Bros, Young Men Have Gone MAGA, Can the Left Win Them Back?, appears in the current copy of The New Yorker. And Andrew Morantz, welcome back to the show.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
Okay, I want to play a clip from Theo Vaughn's show. It's when he had on social scientist Richard Reeves, who you also spoke with. Reeves is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and president of the American Institute for Boys and Men.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
Yeah. So as we just heard so far, California Governor Gavin Newsom has had on a couple of right-wing notables, including activist Charlie Kirk, who is the founder and president of the right-wing student organization Turning Point USA. And I actually want to play a clip from that particular interview. Kirk had just finished an event at the University of Southern California.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
And he talked to Vaughn about how men are struggling to find purpose in today's world and how during the pandemic, there was lots of research being reported about how the isolation would impact women and girls, but not necessarily men and boys. And here's Theo's response.
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
That was podcaster and comedian Theo Vaughn and social scientist Richard Reeves on Theo's podcast this past weekend. Andrew, you write about how at one point during this particular conversation, Theo said, I'm not speaking against any other group. I'm just saying you can't make white males feel like they don't exist. He's saying basically that mainstream media...
Fresh Air
The Political Battle For The Bros
primarily focuses their attention on the plight of people of other identities. And no one is really telling the stories of the disaffected male. Is that something that you heard during your reporting often?
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Hi, it's Tanya Mosley. Before we get back to the show, the end of year is coming up, and our Fresh Air team is looking back at all the fantastic interviews and reviews we've been able to bring you in 2024 because of your support. We had so many delightful, introspective, sometimes emotional, sometimes funny, always deeply human conversations with St.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
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Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Well, I look forward to your next book. Thank you so much for being on our show. Thank you so much, Terri.
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Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Support for this podcast comes from the Neubauer Family Foundation, supporting WHYY's Fresh Air and its commitment to sharing ideas and encouraging meaningful conversation.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
is really how hard it was for women and people of color to hold on and build their intellectual property because the word technology in itself was essentially a synonym for stuff that men do.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
And she's worked as a columnist for The New York Times Magazine, The Boston Globe Magazine, and The Village Voice. Pegyn Kennedy, welcome to Fresh Air. And thank you for this book. It really is a fascinating read.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
Our guest today is investigative journalist Pagan Kennedy. We're talking about her new book, The Secret History of the Rape Kit, A True Crime Story. We'll be right back. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
You mentioned some of the things that were in that kit. It's pretty simple. A cardboard box, some test tubes, swabs, glass slides, other stuff like that. How does that kit, that first kit that Marty Goddard and Vitulo put together, how does it compare to what rape kits have in them today?
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
I want to know first how you came to learn about Marty Goddard.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
One of the interesting things that you found was Hugh Hefner's Playboy empire, the foundation arm of Playboy, actually helped Marty with her efforts. Can you say more on how Playboy actually played a part in offering a system for dissemination of these kits?
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
Right. And that funding helped her launch this campaign, pushing hospitals and police departments to collect evidence. So it was basically the dissemination of these rape kits. Hefner, as you mentioned, felt like these kits were about sexual freedom because if women felt safe, then they would be sexually liberated. Right.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
How long did it take for these kids to get out into the world outside of Chicago? Chicago instituted the kids, and then the rest of the country followed suit.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
These kits really did bring legitimacy to the investigative process. You also write that they allowed for the theater of belief in the courtroom. Can you say more about that?
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
How was the evidence used before DNA evidence? How were they able to use the evidence from the kits to find the perpetrator?
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Pagan Kennedy. We're talking about her new book, The Secret History of the Rape Kid, which is about the untold story of Marty Goddard, the woman who created a way for law enforcement to investigate rape and sexual assault. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
There's also this socio, I guess you could call it like socio-racial justice element to the rape kit. Because not just for the survivors, but for men who are wrongly convicted or accused of rape. What was Marty's role in bringing awareness to that? In particular, black and brown men being unjustly accused of rape.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And before we get started, a warning that on today's show, we will be talking about rape and sexual assault. Five years ago, if you Googled who invented the rape kit, that's a package of items that medical professionals use to gather evidence after a sexual assault, the name Louis Vitulo would come up first.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
I mean, the assumption that I think we've all had is that once DNA came on the scene, it would right the wrongs. It should have radically changed forensics and the ability to go back and test older kits and get dangerous people off the street and exonerate people who have been accused. wrongly accused. Do you have an understanding of how much that happened as we got into the 90s and the 2000s?
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
I know we've seen a dip in the numbers of people being wrongly accused, but we also see this huge backlog.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
Why was there even a backlog to begin with? I think Detroit or Michigan was one of the first places we began to hear of thousands and thousands of rape kits that had yet to be tested.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
When you wrote the original piece that then became this book, you wrote a piece in 2020 for The New York Times. There was this one big thing that you struggled with, and that was your own experience with sexual assault. How did you decide to tell your story of what happened to you within this story?
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
Going back to that story of Marty Goddard, Marty didn't feel like she needed to be the face of this. In fact, she didn't even like being in the forefront of most things that she did. Why do you think it's important that we know her name, know her contribution?
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
Pagan Kennedy, thank you so much for taking the time and for writing this book. Thank you so much. Pagan Kennedy's new book is The Secret History of the Rape Kit, A True Crime Story. Coming up, TV critic David Bianculli reviews a new Western miniseries on Netflix, which he calls both dark and very good. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
Netflix recently premiered all six episodes of a new Western miniseries set in the lawless Utah territory of 1857. It's a collaboration between writer Mark L. Smith, who wrote The Revenant, and actor-director Peter Berg of Friday Night Lights. TV critic David Bianculli has seen the entire series and says it's very dark, very unpredictable, but also very good. Here's his review.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
Marty Goddard died in 2015, but she kind of stumbled upon this prevalence of rape through runaway culture back in the 70s. What was her job and what did she report seeing with these runaway kids?
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. He reviewed the new Netflix series American Primeval. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
Right. This was like psychedelic culture that, yeah, these kids were going out for adventure. Yeah.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
She was asking basic questions that it's so obvious today, but questions like, what if sexual assault could be investigated and prosecuted like a murder or a robbery? Today, it's an obvious yes. But take us back to that time period. What were some of the antiquated definitions of rape back then?
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
He was a Chicago police sergeant who in the 70s was credited with creating what would go on to become the standard for investigating rape and sexual assault. And for a time, it was even called the Vitulo Evidence Collection Kit. But investigative reporter Pagan Kennedy's new book wants to set the story straight.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
So Marty Goddard worked with runaway youth. She discovered this issue of sexual abuse and assault and rape and many of the reasons why these young people were running away from their homes and their communities. You Right about that, but you also write about Marty's life. She was a trailblazer, but also defiant. You describe her as troubled and mysterious.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
Basically, she created this revolutionary forensic tool, and then she disappeared. She only showed up here and there at the turn of the century. And I want to get to what you discovered about her personal life in a little bit, but... In 2003, she was interviewed for an oral history archive project out of California. And I want to play a bit of her talking about the onus being on the victim.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
While Petullo, she writes, was instrumental in getting Chicago police to use the kits, it was a woman who volunteered at a crisis hotline for runaway kids that was the mastermind behind the idea. Her name was Marty Goddard, an activist who preferred to be in the background as she advocated for the young runaways, many of whom she discovered were sexual assault victims.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
She describes how hospitals back then didn't even have replacement clothing for rape victims after authorities would take their clothing as evidence. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
That was Marty Goddard, one of the creators of the rape kit, talking to an oral historian in 2003. And my guest today, Pagan Kennedy, has written a book about the secret history of the rape kit and Goddard's contribution to creating that kit. You know, Pagan, I can hear that Chicago accent in her voice. She also represents a particular type of feminist.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
As you write, she wasn't at the forefront of marching and demonstrating, but you describe her as this behind-the-scenes person. And I'm wondering, what did you learn about how she moved to get things done? She could see all of this stuff happening, the way that victims were being treated in hospitals and police stations.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
But how did she gain access to law enforcement in a way that they would listen to her talk about some of the ways that were wrong, that they were conducting investigations?
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
How and why did Petullo, a sergeant from one of the nation's most corrupt police agencies at the time... a department under investigation for troubling patterns of violent behavior and excessive force, become the poster child for ushering in a new era of understanding of sexual assault and rape.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
So this sergeant from Chicago PD, Louis Vitullo, he was involved in creating this kit, but he didn't have nearly as much involvement as Marty, if I understand that correctly. So how did his name get attached to it?
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
I mean, this really speaks to the time period, too, right? She knew that to have a man's name on it may possibly bring a certain amount of credence, authenticity, like people would take it seriously.
Fresh Air
The Secret History Of The Rape Kit
Pagan-Kennedy's book, The Secret History of the Rape Kid, A True Crime Story, sheds light on Marty Goddard's contributions and explores the broader issue of gender discrimination and the treatment of sexual assault victims. Kennedy is the author of several books, and her writing has appeared in dozens of publications.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
It is all of these things, and you can kind of tap into it based on wherever you are. And I want you to read a section from one alternative healing method that grabbed a lot of attention and has been a big part of this cottage industry that has been debunking many of the claims that she has made through goop.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
In it, she dives into detoxes, colonics, infrared wraps, sweat lodges, wellness apps, and supplements to figure out what is real and what's really just good marketing. What she uncovers isn't just a collection of trends, but a vast and revealing system shaped by our beliefs about health, status, gender, and worth. She's asking, who does this culture of wellness really serve?
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
This particular section of the book, I mean, you really lay out the power of celebrity in every sense of the word. You saw it in fashion. They're the perfect vessel, as we said, for an aspirational self. But what makes what Gwyneth Paltrow and elements of what she does and many others who are in this influencer space potentially dangerous?
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
What has Gwyneth Paltrow said about this? Has she responded to this? Because now, I mean, the groundswell, of course, is really big, but it also is such a successful venture. Goop is hugely successful at the same time.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
If you're just joining us, our guest today is journalist and author Amy LaRocca. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
I have to talk with you about another celebrity that you reference many times in the book. And it's really important because of her scope and influence over time in our society. And that is Oprah. Full disclosure, I'm the generation that grew up on Oprah. I'm the latchkey kid who came home and watched her until my mom got home from work.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
And so many of the references you make in this book, I remember watching them in real time as a child. She really is the original health influencer of our time. How would you describe her influence and maybe even her contribution to what we know as wellness, which kind of started around 94 when she changed the format of her show?
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Who does it leave behind? And why even when we see through the sales pitch, we still buy in? Amy LaRocca is an award-winning journalist, serving as a fashion director and editor-at-large for New York Magazine. Her writing has also appeared in the New York Times, Vogue, Town & Country, and the London Review of Books. Amy LaRocca, welcome to Fresh Air. Hi, Tanya. Thank you so much.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Well, one moment that you highlight. So Jenny McCarthy appeared on Oprah in 2007. She claimed that vaccines caused her son's autism, even with the overwhelming scientific evidence disproving that link. But the fact that it happened on Oprah's platform at a time when anti-vaccine beliefs were still considered fringe, it kind of put it on the mainstream stage.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Can you remind us who that is? He was known as John of God.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Yes. I mean, she introduced us to many folks who then went on to have their own platforms, like Dr. Oz, who is a very polarizing figure and controversial figure in this moment. But when you look back, I mean, even to what's happening today with wellness influencers, celebrity health evangelists, do you think that they have a duty to understand the weight of their influence?
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Is there a responsibility there, especially in a space where people are often vulnerable and looking for help?
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Have there been any major lawsuits or anything based on promises or fads or anything that's been touted by influencers, celebrities that are of note, that like really stuck out to you? I remember many, many years ago. Yes, with Dr. Oz.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Well, you know, Amy, I went into this book thinking I knew what the wellness industry was comprised of. But then I realized that there is so much under this umbrella of wellness that has made its way into the mainstream. So before we actually dive in, I want you to briefly define wellness and how big of an industry this actually is that we're talking about.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist and author Amy LaRocca. We're talking about her new book, How to Be Well, Navigating Our Self-Care Epidemic, One Dubious Cure at a Time. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Okay, Amy, let's talk a little bit about the use of language. You have a fascinating few chapters or a few sections where you really break down language in the wellness industry. And you write that wellness is just as much about looking better as it is about feeling better. And that line between the beauty industry and the wellness industry has all but disappeared.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Yes. So you break down how certain trendy wellness and beauty buzzwords are really just new packaging of old ideas. And I just heard you use one of those words, and that's glow. Glow is everywhere. It's on my vitamin labels, on my makeup, my cleansers, my serums.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
But what we're really talking about when we say glow is another word that we don't really use because it's ageist, and that's youthfulness.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Do you think consumers are fully aware of what we're being sold? Because now we're in the moment of body positivity, and we're also talking so much about ageism. And so are we really understanding that when we use those terms, we're really saying the same things?
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Right, because those drugs were developed for diabetes, but now they're being used for weight loss.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Let's talk a little bit about Mendo and the roles that they play in all of this. Especially as consumers, I thought it was very interesting you wrote about the story of HIMS. That's a brand, a wellness company that seems to market any man who spends any time online, a HIMS ad has come up before you.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Can you talk about how HIMS fits into this landscape and what its rise maybe says about the way wellness is being packaged and sold to men? Yeah, and...
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
You write about the CEO of the company, though, and he talked about his own relationship with this company.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
And to a certain extent, we all do that. But then what is the extreme version that you're starting to see?
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
He's that entrepreneur that has that special on Netflix about trying to stay alive forever. That's exactly right. So it's taken to extremes. Did your wellness journey for this book change anything with you? Did it make you happier? Did it feel like you transcended something? Did you make me feel like I transcended? Oh, God.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Because really that is what is at the core of this is us transcending into some version, better version of ourselves.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
More pared down than when you started writing this book? Oh, yeah.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
You said at the end of the book that this was a love letter to your daughter. And I'm thinking back to what we were talking about, about those adolescent girl diary entries that go as far back as 1892, where each generation is dealing with some version of... of whatever the thing is that we need to, you know, the ideal that we're trying to attain.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Do you feel like there's any real way to fight it? Like, what did you come away with in thinking about what you want to impart on younger generations and your daughter?
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Amy Loraca, I really appreciate this conversation and thank you for this book. Thank you so much for having me. It's wonderful to be here. writer Amy LaRocca. Her new book is called How to Be Well. Coming up, film critic Justin Chang reviews the documentary-drama hybrid Caught by the Tides. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Our film critic Justin Chang says the documentary-drama hybrid Caught by the Tides is one of the best and most unusual new movies he's seen this year. It's the latest from the acclaimed Chinese filmmaker Jia Zhangke, and it draws from footage that he began shooting in 2001 to tell a story of two lovers who separate and reunite over roughly two decades.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
The film is now in select theaters, and here is Justin's review.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Before we start the show, you may have heard that President Trump has issued an executive order seeking to block all federal funding to NPR. This is the latest in a series of threats to media organizations across the country. Millions of people, people like you, depend on the NPR network as a vital source for news, entertainment, information, and connection. We are proud to be here for you.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
And you make the point to say it's a luxury good that is really marketed towards women. I actually want you to read the first page of this book, which defines the ultimate female customer.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Justin Chang is a film critic for The New Yorker. To find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations on what to watch, read, and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org slash fresh air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shurock, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. They at Challenger directed today's show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
You have a sense of humor and yet this speaks truth. I mean, depending on where you sit, the well woman, she sounds aspirational or, you know, on the other side of that, she sounds insufferable. Many of us know her. I mean, many of us also want to be her. Maybe we are her. What is it, though, about her pursuit of wellness that is part of a larger epidemic?
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Because you use that term in the subtitle of the book that we are in the midst of a self-care epidemic. That is a very strong word.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
The thing about it, and you actually lay this out in the book, is that through time, there has always been an element of that that you could date all the way back to. I think you were reading a book that looked at diary entries of young girls from the 1800s all the way to today. Whatever the trend is of the moment on how to be as a woman today. And the trend is always to improve ourselves, right?
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
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Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
taken as what we are always it's a major part of womanhood right is that we're always striving is there something though about modern life right now that has made wellness feel urgent it's almost like a modern day faith or religion to focus on yourself and improving yourself
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Well, I think there also was something that happened. I mean, we actually know what happened around 2020 when the COVID pandemic hit, that it sort of supercharged this trend towards wellness, but also like this lack of faith in traditional medicine.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
And also a questioning of the experts with like the questioning of Dr. Fauci.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Well, also the thing that happened during that period, that time period, was these people, these influencers that you said had been in this world for a really long time, then had our undivided attention.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Well, you actually became a version of the well woman for your research.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
You underwent colonics. Oh, I did. Yes. Drank green juices, all types of things. You brought your skeptical journalist self to this process, but you also brought a little bit of belief in it, too, right? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, we are diving into the trillion-dollar machine that is the wellness industry, from what we eat and how we sleep to how we age, move, and think. Wellness promises to optimize every corner of our lives. Writer Amy LaRocca asks what's really behind all the promises of this industry in her new book, How to Be Well, Navigating Our Self-Care Epidemic, One Dubious Cure at a Time.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Many of these things that you talk about in the book and you're talking about right now are kind of like these old practices that stem from something.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
Yeah, very ancient practices. But now they're a marketing tool to sell back to us. Because when I think about cold therapy, you know, polar plunge.
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
I want to ask you about the influence of celebrity on this because it's very clear how celebrities can be used to sell all sorts of things. There's one particular celebrity, though, in this moment who holds an outsized portion of this market. Can you quantify Gwyneth Paltrow's power and popularity in the wellness space?
Fresh Air
Navigating The 'Wellness' Epidemic
You've written about, though, this cottage industry that has sprung up because of Gwyneth Paltrow that is debunking many of the claims that come from Paltrow's company, Goop. I mean, Goop, just to set the stage for those out there who might not know, it's a lifestyle brand. It's a beauty brand. It's a publication. It's a podcast.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And today my guest is filmmaker Rommel Ross. His adaptation of Colson Whitehead's Pulitzer Prize winning novel, The Nickel Boys, is nominated for an Academy Award for Best Adapted Screenplay and for Best Picture. It tells the story of two black teenagers in 1960s Florida. as they attempt to survive and escape a brutal reformatory academy.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Can you articulate the difference? Because one of the things that was very clear to me in watching Hale County was... Even from like the first images in the church is where you all start out. Those kids just are ignoring you like you are not there. You are in such intimate moments. And yet, like, I don't feel like you're there.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
And while on his way to college, he gets caught up and wrongfully accused of something and sent to Nickel Academy, which is this reformatory that he'll soon learn is really a house of horrors. And the scene I like to play, Elwood is in the infirmary recovering from this beating at the hands of the school's corrupt white administrator, Spencer. And he's punished for trying to stop a fight.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
How did the folks in Hale County respond to the Oscar nomination?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Break down what you mean there. Like, it's not Hill County. It's your Hill County.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Our guest today is Oscar-nominated filmmaker Ramel Ross. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air. You did something a few years ago. You shipped yourself from Rhode Island to Hale County. How did that idea come about, Ramel? And why did you want to do it?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Even after... Wait, you forget that you shipped yourself in a four by four by eight foot box?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
I feel like this just might be an insight into your psyche that you're thinking about so many ideas and thoughts and experiences that like you could forget something like that. But continue. How did the idea come about? And yeah, say more about it. And why did you want to do it?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Because, yeah, there's these images that pop up where you're in a boxcar and you're looking at the night sky through the boxcar.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
So Elwood is arguing with his cynical friend Turner, played by Brandon Wilson, about whether the civil rights movement will bring about change. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
You just said, would you please ship this item?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Were you keeping time inside?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Why did you want to do it? I understand the origins and the symbolism, but why did you want to experience being in a boxcar, in a car?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Did you feel claustrophobic at all? Did you feel any sense of fear at all being in that box?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
What did you love about it?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Our guest today is Oscar-nominated filmmaker Ramel Ross. We'll be right back after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Okay, so Rommel, you were born in Frankfurt, Germany. As you mentioned, your parents are both in the military, were in the military. How long were you in Germany before you all moved? You all moved to Fairfax, Virginia. That's where you spent most of your childhood.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
And I want to go to college with you because you're 6'6". You're a tall guy. You were playing basketball at Georgetown. And then you were injured.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
When did you start playing basketball?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
How were you injured? Do you remember?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
That's a scene from Nickel Boys adapted by my guest today, Rommel Ross. And Rommel, this film and this scene in particular, it captures your attention and it demands your attention in the same way that you and I are sitting across from each other right now and you're staring in my eyes and I'm staring in your eyes.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
When did you realize that dream of the NBA was over?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Yeah. Do you still feel phantom pain at all?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
There was also something else that happened during that time. You lost your mom.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
What opened up for you in that time period that photography looked like? Not a savior, but like an interest that you say, okay, I'm going to focus my attention here.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
These characters are staring into the camera, which means they're looking at us, which means we are them. How did you pull that off?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Yeah. I'm just curious about the kind of conversations you'd have at home with your parents and your siblings. Like, were you deconstructing life, trying to pick apart things growing up? Is that part of innately you? Is it your family too? Like, take me there.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
In what way? Like, how would you annoy them?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
This was such a pleasure to talk with you. Congratulations on your nominations. And thank you.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Ramel Ross's film, Nickel Boys, is in theaters nationwide and will be available on Prime Video later this year. It's been nominated for Best Picture and Adapted Screenplay for this year's Academy Awards. The ceremony will be held on March 2nd. Coming up, a review of the new season of the hit TV series, The White Lotus. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
One of this year's most eagerly awaited TV series is the new season of The White Lotus, Mike White's acclaimed comic drama about privileged tourists getting up to trouble in posh seaside resorts. In this latest installment, whose first episode drops on HBO this Sunday, the action has moved to Thailand, with visitors that include characters played by Michelle Monaghan, Walton Goggins,
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Carrie Coon, Jason Isaacs, and Parker Posey. Critic-at-large John Powers has watched a big chunk of the series and says it aims deeper than earlier seasons.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
The story is loosely based on the real-life Dozier School for Boys, which was a notorious place for its brutal treatment of students. Ross's approach to this story is really unlike anything most viewers have ever experienced. The film is shot almost entirely from the perspectives of the two protagonists, Elwood and Turner.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
I think your collaborator, Joe Mofray, the cinematographer, called this process sentient perspective. How did you all come up with this technique?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
John Powers reviewed the new season of The White Lotus, which begins Sunday on HBO. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, we hear from some of Saturday Night Live's early cast members ahead of their three-hour 50th anniversary special on Sunday.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Dan Aykroyd, Al Franken, who was one of the show's original writers before becoming a cast member, and writer Alan Zweibel talks about creating iconic sketches with Gilda Ratner. I hope you can join us. I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Several years before this film. And that was your first documentary, which you were nominated for an Oscar.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
And when you say make the camera an organ, like literally, what do you mean by that?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
It's observational. It's anthropological.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Nickel Boys is an astounding story. And what makes it especially heartbreaking is that it is based on the truth. Take me to when you first read the book. What were the things that you saw on the page as you were reading it that you felt compelled, that you wanted to adapt this story?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Ross turns the camera into what he calls an organ by attaching body-mounted cameras and filming the scene continuously with unbroken takes. The outcome for the viewer feels like being both Elwood and Turner. Now, I introduced Rommel Ross as a filmmaker, but really this title is too narrow. He's also a photographer, a Brown University professor, and a writer.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
You and your writing partner, Jocelyn, do this thing where there's the narrative and then there are the micro-narratives. There's imagery that just pops up throughout the entire film. So, like, there's an alligator that we see that continues to show up. And then there are these images of Martin Luther King Jr., who is, like, this sign of hope and progress.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Can you tell me about why and how you came to use that imagery as a micro-narrative to tell the bigger story? Sure.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
And it's beautiful that you think about these things in your work. You're a trained photographer. And I wonder, have you ever been in a place and Like you want to capture it and like you start to take out your camera and you start to take pictures and it just can't capture it. Like you look then at what you shot, what you snapped, and it just doesn't do the thing.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
I'm just thinking about that in terms of you talking about the images of us from the past and how they were taken from a different eye. Do you think that there's something somewhat mystical too in what happens between, say, A person who has a closer connection to an image and they take it versus those who are an anthropological and they're taking an anthropological look.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
A former Georgetown basketball recruit sidelined by injuries, Ross pivoted to sociology and English before honing his visual language rooted in what he calls liberated documentation. His 2018 Academy Award-nominated documentary,
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
So we've been talking about Hale County this morning, this evening, as it relates to the Nickel Boys. This was your first step into filmmaking. It is loosely based on two young men, Daniel Collins and Quincy Bryant, as they move through their final years of adolescence into full adulthood. It won the Special Jury Award at the Sundance Film Festival and was nominated for an Oscar.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
What was it about that time and experience that captured your imagination that made you say, no, I need to pick up a camera for this?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
Hale County This Morning, This Evening is an ethnographic story told through fractured vignettes of Black Southern life, and it won a Peabody Award for Documentary in 2019. Rommel Ross, welcome to Fresh Air. Thanks for having me. Thanks so much. Elwood Curtis, who is played by Ethan Harisi, is a bright, idealistic teenager who lives with his grandmother, played by Anjanue Ellis-Taylor.
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
What was incredible to you about it? Do you remember what really during that trip?
Fresh Air
'Nickel Boys' Director RaMell Ross Makes The Camera 'An Organ'
You're coming from a city. So like what did what are some things you had to unlearn to actually be able to like get that lesson you're talking about?
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
Through court documents, accounts from whistleblowers, and those directly impacted, Harris also writes about the company's aggressive marketing tactics, which he argues helped fuel the opioid epidemic. Just last week, a court rejected Johnson & Johnson's request to approve a $9 billion settlement with tens of thousands of people suing the company over claims that its talcum powder caused cancer.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
Okay. I want to parse a little bit more the legal ease here because I noticed that you have written about how there are something like 93,000 suits against J&J. But I was noticing that J&J says that they have prevailed in 16 or 17 of the ovarian cases tried in the last 11 years. Right. And they're making the distinction of the last 11 years. Is that true?
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
Our guest today is investigative reporter Gardner Harris. We'll be right back after a break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
Gartner Harris is a freelance investigative journalist. He worked previously for The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal, where he wrote about public health and the pharmaceutical industry. Gartner Harris, welcome to the show.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
So let me just go back to the testing from the FDA in 2019. If I am reading this correctly, though, the FDA had not received any testing results of baby powder danger since the 70s? Since 1973. OK, so they did their own testing just a few years ago and found that baby powder indeed had asbestos in it.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
But how could a company go four decades without having to show proof their product was safe with the FDA, especially with the accusations that had been floating around all of this time? Right.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
Do you have any estimates on the number of deaths from ovarian cancer linked to J&J's baby powder?
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
Well, Gardner, I really can't wait to delve into the details of this book with you. Number one, baby powder. From my memory, I remember only hearing about the dangers of talc a few years ago. So I was really shocked. To learn from your book, the dangers of talcum powder were first published in the 1920s, and then over the decades, research links to cancer grew.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
I mean, I was even just wondering about other ovarian conditions because... I mean, every woman I know has used baby powder to keep fresh at some point. Right.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
I want to talk about the media. How would you describe J&J's relationship with the media over the years? You tell actually the story about this outlet out of San Diego that wanted to do its own testing of Johnson's baby powder. Right. What happened in that case?
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
Right, the loss of that advertising. Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is investigative journalist Gardner Harris. We're talking to him about his new book, No More Tears, The Dark Secrets of Johnson & Johnson. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. Let's get into Tylenol.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
So one of the things in this book you do is lay out, really you just laid out the pattern of inaction from J&J after knowing about potential dangers. And Tylenol, which is one of the company's most profitable products, let's go to the 1980s. and the incident known as the Chicago Tylenol Murders. There was a man who poisoned many of those bottles with cyanide.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
But what makes your writing so astounding is that the growth in popularity of J&J baby powder, it grew as data about the dangers grew. So they were almost like alongside each other as the popularity of the use grew, so did the data showing the dangers. Can you briefly break down for me the links to cancer that were found?
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
And then Johnson & Johnson was credited with creating the tamper-resistant packaging that we know today. And it kind of created this halo over the company. But one of the most enduring narratives is that the tampering of these bottles came out of the blue, which could not be anticipated. And you actually found that that was not true.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
So they were able to come out very quickly with this new tamper-proof bottle. But the FDA's role in this, you say that the FDA ignored, enabled, or encouraged really every disaster in this book.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
In those early press releases involving the Tylenol murders, you mentioned how it was headed with McNeil Laboratories, which is a subsidiary of Johnson & Johnson. Can you explain the significance of that, along with Janssen Pharmaceutical acquisitions for Johnson & Johnson? Because that kind of set them in the center of the pharmaceutical industry. It really bolstered the J&J portfolio.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
Well, I mean, yes, we now look at a bottle of Tylenol and we see that warning label that overuse can cause liver damage. But that was a long-fought battle to get those warnings, and people actually suffered.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
So I asked you earlier about the first case brought against J&J over its baby powder. Briefly tell us about some of the women that have filed lawsuits. Is there a case that stands out for you?
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
Investigative journalist Gartner Harris. His new book is called No More Tears, The Dark Secrets of Johnson & Johnson. We reached out to Johnson & Johnson for comment on Harris's reporting, and they issued a statement saying, quote, We stand behind the safety of our products and are focused on what we do best, delivering medical innovation for patients around the world.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
Coming up, critic-at-large John Powers reviews the new TV series Your Friends and Neighbors, starring Jon Hamm. This is Fresh Air. In the new TV series Your Friends and Neighbors, Jon Hamm stars as a rich hedge fund guy who loses his job and turns to crime to pay for his exceedingly high bills. The show, which also stars Amanda Peet, has already been renewed for a second season on Apple TV+.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
Our critic-at-large, John Powers, has seen the first six of the nine episodes and calls it a sharply entertaining series that harkens back to earlier portraits of suburban life but gives things an up-to-date spin.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. Chances are you've got a Johnson & Johnson memory tucked somewhere deep. Maybe it's the scent of baby powder used by our mothers and grandmothers to make us feel a little fresher, a little more put together.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
John Powers reviewed Your Friends and Neighbors, which starts streaming Friday on Apple TV+. To find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations on what you should watch, read, and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Nakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
So there were research studies done in the 70s. And then moving into the 80s, there was research done that actually tied it to ovarian cancer. Talk a little bit about those studies.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
And to delve a little bit more into that, it was the length and the amount of time that it was used because there's also concerns about it being used on babies.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
It sounds like, though, the challenge in proving that your cancer came from exposure to talc or the constant use of talc It poses a problem because it could be many years down the road.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
So while all of that litigation was happening and all of the research was coming out, there was also aggressive marketing towards women to purchase baby powder. You write about how many brands have rational trust, so like Procter & Gamble and Colgate. And then Johnson & Johnson... created emotional trust, basically from conception.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
A mom is implanted with what you call a brain worm, which basically equates trust and intimacy with the brand. And there are several ways that was executed, but I want to play a clip from a commercial from 1985. This is three years after that study linked ovarian cancer to baby powder. And in this clip, there's a couple in conversation, and the man is
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
holding the woman's teddy bear that she's had since childhood, which she has named Oscar. And the woman is putting baby powder on her arms as they're talking. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
Maybe it's that childhood memory of running into the house with a scraped knee reaching for a Band-Aid from the iconic red and white box or Tylenol from the medicine cabinet. From pharmaceuticals to medical devices, Johnson & Johnson has been woven into the most tender, vulnerable parts of our lives for generations. But a new book by investigative journalist Gartner Harris challenges that trust.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
That was a commercial from Johnson & Johnson's baby powder marketing, 1985. It's marketed towards young women. Gartner, the company continued to use talc even after those studies showed links to ovarian cancer. What was the justification for that when there were other alternatives like cornstarch?
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
So Johnson & Johnson just switched over to cornstarch just a few years ago. So this is not that long ago that now you can't really buy talc baby powder. But does the smell change with cornstarch?
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
In No More Tears, The Dark Secrets of Johnson & Johnson, Harris investigates J&J's business practices, the link to its baby powder and cancer, and the urgent questions about the safety of many of its other products.
Fresh Air
The Dark Secrets Of Johnson & Johnson
Tell us about the first case brought against J&J over its baby powder. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Having A Child In The Digital Age
When Hess was 29 weeks pregnant, doctors spotted something that indicated her baby could have a rare genetic condition. What followed was a spiral of MRIs, genetic testing, consultations with specialists, and like many of us would do, a late-night dive into the internet for answers.
Fresh Air
Having A Child In The Digital Age
This part of the book was really moving to me because what you're really grappling with as well is like the value of information now at our fingertips. Because on one hand, you receive that scary ultrasound and these tests, and then you're able to dig through the Internet and find all
Fresh Air
Having A Child In The Digital Age
All of these cases, which I'm sure when you talk to doctors about them, they would say like, well, those are the most extreme cases. That's why people are writing about them on the Internet. But then it puts you in kind of like this really profoundly tough position to be in because it's divorcing you from that innate identity.
Fresh Air
Having A Child In The Digital Age
part of motherhood that comes with acceptance and understanding and then you being able to move into motherhood with the knowledge that you know did you ever wonder if you had known say like at 10 weeks or earlier might you have felt the pressure to make a different choice of not to move forward with your pregnancy
Fresh Air
Having A Child In The Digital Age
That search led her down a rabbit hole and to fertility tech, AI-powered embryo screening, conspiracy theories, YouTube birth vlogs, the performance of motherhood on Instagram, and threaded through it all, an unsettling eugenic undercurrent suggesting which children are worth having.
Fresh Air
Having A Child In The Digital Age
Our guest today is author and cultural critic Amanda Hess. We're talking about her new book, Second Life, Having a Child in the Digital Age. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Having A Child In The Digital Age
Known for her commentary on internet culture and gender at the New York Times, Hess turns her critique inward, asking herself, what does it mean to become a parent while plugged into an algorithmic machine that sorts scores and sells versions of perfection and what's considered normal? Amanda Hess, welcome to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Having A Child In The Digital Age
I want to talk a little bit about how tech elites are investing in ways to optimize babies. And you actually began to see threads of this early on with that app that you mentioned earlier called Flow, which you started using as a period tracker. And then it evolved to become a pregnancy tracker, which had message boards, kind of operated like this place for perfect pregnancies, it sounds like.
Fresh Air
Having A Child In The Digital Age
And when you tried to talk about your son's condition, though, what did you encounter on those message boards in particular?
Fresh Air
Having A Child In The Digital Age
Is there something inherently different about an app and us being able to hold these technologies in the palm of our hand and constantly have access to them?
Fresh Air
Having A Child In The Digital Age
You know, I'm thinking about when I was a pregnant person and I just had all the books around what to expect when you're expecting and other types of text that some of them were written by men, some of them were written by pseudoscientists, all of these things, but I saw them as resources, but not places of fact and understanding.
Fresh Air
Having A Child In The Digital Age
Is there something inherently different about our relationship when it is presented to us in the form of technology that has a different effect on us?
Fresh Air
Having A Child In The Digital Age
You opened this book with a moment that I mentioned, soon-to-be parents fear. That's a routine ultrasound that shows a potential abnormality. And at the time, you were seven months pregnant. What did the doctor share with you?
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
That sense of reassuredness, too, I want to talk a little bit about, like, the privilege in that. Because on the face of it, it's like the ability to know and understand that all seems positive. I'm thinking about...
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
like some of the big technologies that are coming into fruition now or already there, like OpenAI, Sam Altman's funding of the genomic prediction, which is supposedly going to offer embryo tests predicting everything from diabetes risk to potential IQ of a baby. But you actually point this out in the book that there is a growing divide because on one side,
Fresh Air
Having A Child In The Digital Age
There are these affluent parents who have access to this kind of screening. And then on the other, many parents can't even get basic access to prenatal care. How did your experience kind of help you reflect on those extremes?
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking to author Amanda Hess about her new book, Second Life, Having a Child in the Digital Age. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. I want to talk a little bit more about our presentation online and also kind of this idea of surveillance.
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
So your work as a cultural critic, you often touch on surveillance, both state and personal. And in this book, You describe how new parents also surround themselves with surveillance tech. So baby monitors and nursery cameras that are constantly watching. And of course, in our daily life, we're all under so many forms of surveillance. How do you think this surveillance culture is affecting us?
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
Or how did it affect you in those early days as a mother when you've got that baby monitor in your baby's room? Like, are we habituating our children to be watched 24-7?
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
Right. I mean, this goes back to your ability to control the situation. I remember there was a time when I think our baby monitor went out in the middle of the night. So I woke up from a deep sleep. It's 8 o'clock. I'm like, wow, we slept for like eight, nine hours. And I realized that the baby monitor had died. Yeah. I was completely freaked out.
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
Like, what if I miss like a catastrophe that happened? But then when you think back, it's like, okay, if that were the situation, I would have heard it. I mean, I have my senses. Do you feel like these technologies in many instances kind of take us outside of ourselves from we're like giving control over to the technology?
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
One of the things you do in your writing that's really powerful is you integrate the ways that technology works. really infiltrates every waking moment of our lives, including this particular moment when the doctor looked at your ultrasound. And I'd like for you to read about this moment just before you receive that news from the doctor. You're on the sonogram table.
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
So now you're a mother of two. When you wrote this book, you started off with the pregnancy and birth of your first. This book is called Having a Child in the Digital Age. That's the subtitle. How are you feeling about the future of raising a child in the digital age? Do you see like any positive trends in digital culture for the next generation?
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
Or do you kind of worry about these issues that we've talked about? Will they only intensify? Where are you on this now?
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
Before we start the show, you may have heard that President Trump has issued an executive order seeking to block all federal funding to NPR. This is the latest in a series of threats to media organizations across the country. Millions of people, people like you, depend on the NPR network as a vital source for news, entertainment, information, and connection. We are proud to be here for you.
Fresh Air
Having A Child In The Digital Age
You're waiting for the doctor to arrive. And as you're lying there with that goo that they put on your stomach to allow for the ultrasound wand to glide over your pregnant belly, your mind begins to race. Can I have you read that passage? Sure.
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
Well, Amanda, I really appreciate you writing this book, and thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us about it. Thank you so much. Amanda Hess is a journalist, cultural critic, and author of the memoir Second Life, Having a Child in the Digital Age. Coming up, book critic Maureen Corrigan reviews Daniel Kelman's latest novel, The Director. This is Fresh Air.
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
German-born writer Daniel Kelman was shortlisted for the International Booker Prize in 2020 for his novel Till. His latest novel, The Director, is largely set in Nazi Germany and raises questions about art and collaboration. Our book critic Maureen Corrigan has a review.
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed The Director by Daniel Kelman. On tomorrow's show, R. Crum, the king of underground comics, a famous eccentric, and a musician caught up in the blues and jazz of the past. Crum created Zap Comics and characters like Mr. Natural and Fritz the Cat. He's the subject of a new biography. I hope you can join us.
Fresh Air
Having A Child In The Digital Age
Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper.
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
Thea Challoner directed today's show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
Thank you so much for reading that, Amanda. I think that every soon-to-be mother, every mother can really identify with that. And I think just in life, we've come to this place with our relationship with technology that we can kind of Google our way out of tough moments.
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
You write about receiving that first alarming warning of this abnormal pregnancy and how even before getting a second or third opinion that clarified this diagnosis, your mind didn't jump to something you did, but to something that you were. And that moment seemed to crystallize kind of this deeper fear about your body and how it surveilled and judged, especially in pregnancy.
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
Can you talk just a little bit about how technology also kind of fed into your judgment about yourself?
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
And now more than ever, we need you to be here for us. It's time to join the movement to defend public media. Visit donate.npr.org. And if you are already a supporter via NPR Plus or other means, thank you. Your support means so much to us now more than ever. You help make NPR shows freely available to everyone. We are proud to do this work for you and with you. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Having A Child In The Digital Age
I want to go back a little bit to deepen what you're saying here to that undercurrent of, I think you use the term in the book, maternal impression that creeps into modern medicine. This notion that your thoughts and feelings and anxieties can physically mark your child.
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
In your case, as you are on the internet, you're reading, you're connecting with other would-be mothers and mothers, your medical chart flagged the single dose of Ativan that you took early in your pregnancy as teratogen exposure with that root terata meaning monster.
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
And Ativan, I should note, is this anti-anxiety medicine that you took during this moment when you were really stressed out with work. You wrote actually, when I decoded its medical terminology, It said that I had created a monster. Now, two things that stood out to me about this. First, I hadn't considered how blame and guilt are almost baked into the medical system just through terminology.
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
And I also wondered, once that doctor said that thing to you at seven months when you're on the table, did you have to convince yourself that you didn't cause your son's condition?
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
You encountered, though, on the Internet that pseudoscience with these fringe theories. You actually encountered this influencer who suggested that your stress in life or you figuratively biting your tongue might have actually caused your babies in large tongues.
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, I am joined by Amanda Hess. She's a journalist, cultural critic, and now author of a new memoir titled Second Life, Having a Child in the Digital Age. The book starts with a moment every expecting parent dreads, a routine ultrasound that is suddenly not routine.
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Having A Child In The Digital Age
Can you describe this part of the internet that you felt relegated to once you received your son's diagnosis?
Fresh Air
A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
We won't be discussing sex in an explicit way, but this is an adult conversation with adult themes and topics, including sex work. With that, Brittany Newell, welcome to Fresh Air.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
start to build the atmosphere of the person that you want to be that day okay this is a very probably naive question but every time i hear the word dungeon i'm literally thinking about a dungeon like i'm literally let's let's go down to the basement open like a bolted door but in the book like the dungeons are like rooms in a victorian for instance yeah yeah
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
Our guest today is writer Brittany Newell. We're talking about her new novel, Softcore. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
I'm over the moon. Yes, well, thank you for being here. I really enjoyed your book. It was such a good read. And I want to know, first off, how much of soft core is fiction and how much of it is based on real life?
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
My guest today is author and professional dominatrix Brittany Newell. And if you're just tuning in, I want to give a warning. We won't be discussing sex in an explicit way, but this is an adult conversation with adult themes and topics, including sex work.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
Brittany Newell's new novel, Softcore, takes the reader into San Francisco's underworld of dive bars, strip clubs, and BDSM dungeons where tech bros and outcasts live out their fantasies. Ruth, the protagonist, is a stripper and a part-time dominatrix who tries to fulfill the deepest desires of her clients, who mostly want to talk about their loneliness, desire, and loss.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
Brittany Newell is a graduate of Stanford University and wrote her debut novel, Ula, described as the millennial Lolita in 2017 when she was 21 years old. She's written for The New York Times, Joyland, and Playgirl. Brittany, in Softcore, Ruth, she is very introspective, as you described, and she reflects somewhat tenderly about these guys that she services.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
I want to read this passage in particular that was pretty powerful. She says, quote, Did I feel simpatico with the clients whose names and birthdays I can still recite to this day, Pledge of Allegiance style? Tim, 10-10-75. Pascal, 6-9-69. The oldest client I can remember was born in 1939. All I know, in fact, is this. Men are dying to be let in on the secret pleasures of girlhood.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
They feel cheated out of ease and glamour. Friend kisses and hushed gossip. Heterosexuality is defined by a longing for wholeness. Terror undergirds desire. Brittany, is that true?
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
I think I asked you earlier, how important is it for you not to show judgment? And I'm also thinking about, like, what does the kink say, if anything, about the person? Do you put any of that on that? Like, you know, I'm sure you come across certain kinks that are just like you talked about the foot fetish. Like that is one that I think, you know, all of us kind of know about.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And my guest today is author Brittany Newell, who loves to write about the secret worlds of others, the things people do, she says, that make their lives more bearable. Her newest novel, Softcore, takes the reader into San Francisco's underworld of dive bars, strip clubs, and BDSM dungeons, where tech bros, executives, and outcasts live out their fantasies.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
But like, is there a specific like thing that a kink says about a person?
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
How much responsibility do you hold in making certain that the person feels safe enough to let go? Because, you know, that's part of it.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
You know, you're young. We kind of bask in the glow of Ruth's youth in this book. Even though she does encounter OGs, like the woman who runs this home, this house, you know, BDSM house. Is there a life cycle for this kind of work? You know, I think it's obvious like for stripping, for instance, but like in particular to be a dominatrix, is there an end date?
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
It's too late. Do you know other careers that other doms have gone to once they leave this kind of work?
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
Brittany Newell, thank you so much for this book.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
It was such a fun read and this was such a delightful conversation. Thank you.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
Brittany Newell's new book is titled Softcore. After a short break, TV critic David Bianculli reviews the new prime video comedy series Clean Slate, and book critic Maureen Corrigan reviews two quintessential New York books. This is Fresh Air. A new TV comedy series called Clean Slate premieres today on Prime Video.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
It's about a widower in Alabama whose long-estranged son returns home, but as his daughter. Veteran comedian George Wallace plays the dad, and actress Laverne Cox from Orange is the New Black plays the trans daughter. The show is one of the last TV series from pioneering sitcom producer Norman Lear, who died in 2023. Our TV critic David Bianculli has this review.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
I mean, I could see why, knowing that your main character, Ruth, she has a master's degree. She's working in these underworlds. And like you, you are a Stanford graduate. And you have a really interesting story into your foray into these worlds, which we're going to get to in just a moment. But Ruth, the protagonist in the book, she's also known as her stripper name, Baby.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. He reviewed Clean Slate, which begins streaming today on Prime Video. Coming up, book critic Maureen Corrigan reviews two quintessential New York books. This is Fresh Air. The new Bob Dylan movie has put our book critic Maureen Corrigan in a New York state of mind. Here's her review of two quintessential New York books.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
And one of the more powerful elements of your writing is is that you not only explore what's in it for the guys that she services, you also explore outside of money what's in it for her to be a stripper and a dominatrix. How would you describe Ruth?
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed This Beautiful Ridiculous City by Kay Sahini and A Town Without Time, Gay Talisa's New York. If you'd like to catch up on interviews you've missed, like our conversation with singer and actor Ariana Grande about her role in the new film Wicked, or with New Yorker staff writer Dexter Filkins on the U.S.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
military's recruitment crisis, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of our fresh air interviews. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get producers' recommendations on what to watch, read, and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org slash freshair. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller.
Fresh Air
A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shurock, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Ngakundi, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly C.B. Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
Well, one of the things that Ruth does throughout the book is kind of make clear that she sees herself as average. And she does this like in her description of her physicality, what she looks like. She's like the girl next door. I think that she said that she made men's mangy dreams come true. Why was it important for Ruth to be kind of an average girl with an average body in this world?
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
Ruth, the protagonist, is a stripper who unravels when her ex-boyfriend, a ketamine dealer, disappears. Ruth, known by her stripper name, Baby Blue, starts working as a professional dominatrix where she tries to fulfill the deepest desires of her clients, who mostly want to talk to her about how lonely they are and the grief they carry. Brittany Newell draws from personal experience.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
How did you go from being a Stanford graduate to a dominatrix?
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
Right, because you did study queer periods and contemporary fiction.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
Sitting down and talking, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay, this is so fascinating to me because one of the things in reading this book that I kept thinking about is that you also have to sit in this seat of non-judgment for all of the requests that come to you.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
Is there ever a moment where you do judge or where do you put yourself as far as your mental space to come to the table so that you can accept whatever as long as you're safe of course whatever is being requested of you or brought to you as a fantasy?
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
In addition to being a writer, she is also a professional dominatrix. A graduate of Stanford University, she studied comparative literature and gender studies and wrote her debut novel, Ula, in 2017 when she was 21 years old. It's been described as the millennial Lolita. Newell has written for the New York Times, Joyland, and Playgirl.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
Has there ever been an instance where you've seen these men in real life, in day-to-day life, at the grocery store, at the post office? And if that's the case, like, you just pretend you just walk on by.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
Right, because that's part of the fantasy is it stays what's in the dungeon stays in the dungeon.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
She and her wife run a monthly drag and dance party called Angels at Aunt Charlie's Lounge, which is one of San Francisco's oldest queer bars. Now, before Brittany and I get into our conversation, I want to warn you that this is an adult conversation, not appropriate for children.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
You know something that, and I'm not going to give away, like there are so many parts of the book that if we go too deep into it, like it gives away the story. But something else that's really important is scent. Yeah. Your character Baby wears a unique fragrance that her ex-boyfriend has gifted her.
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A Dominatrix/Writer Takes Readers Into A Dungeon
And there's a moment where she talks about the sense of all the girls who work at this strip club with her and what they signify, what they bring to the experience, what When and how did you learn how important scent is in this experience and in the fantasy?
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
But mostly, Brothers is a love letter to the music they created and to Eddie, who has been called for decades one of the greatest guitarists of all time. Van Halen disbanded after Eddie died in 2020, but throughout their run, Van Halen produced 12 studio albums, 4 compilation albums, 2 live records, and 56 singles. They were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2007.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Yeah, why do you think Eddie went and did that without consulting you guys?
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Ed going and doing this song with Michael Jackson, if you guys had always said you wanted to be Led Zeppelin, what do you think it was that made him say, I want to do this anyway?
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
I just have to say to you, Alex, it also opened up another world to you guys. I mean, I'm a little black girl in Detroit hearing that little solo from Van Halen, and it introduced me to you.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Alex Van Halen, this was such a pleasure. Thank you so much.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
My interview with Alex Van Halen was recorded in October when he published his memoir, Brothers. Alex and his late brother Eddie were founding members of the rock band Van Halen.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
After a short break, we'll hear my conversation with actor, singer, and entrepreneur Selena Gomez, who stars in the Netflix Spanish-language film Amelia Perez, and the Hulu comedy series Only Murders in the Building, which have both received multiple Golden Globe nominations. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Hey, it's Tanya Mosley. It's almost the end of the year, and this is the season when we here at NPR come to you as a nonprofit news organization and ask for your support. Maybe you're already an NPR Plus supporter, and if so, thank you so much.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
We love spending our time following investigative journalists who are covering important issues, reading the latest books, watching the latest movies and documentaries, and listening to music that spans across time. To bring you conversations with everyone from Selena Gomez and Bridget Everett to music legends like Jon Bon Jovi and Michael McDonald. Together, we can do even more in 2025.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Alex, music was in your blood because your dad was a jazz musician, so you were watching him while you guys were also performing yourselves. What was your earliest recollection of doing gigs?
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. The Netflix Spanish-language musical film Amelia Perez centers on a drug cartel leader who decides to undergo gender affirmation surgery and start a new life with a new identity as Amelia Perez. My guest, Selena Gomez, stars as Jessie Del Monte, the wife who is forced to start a new life of her own after her husband disappears.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
The film is almost entirely in Spanish, and in preparation for the role, Gomez had to brush up on her Spanish after losing fluency as a kid once she started acting. Emilia Perez leads in the Golden Globe film categories with 10 total nominations, and including Best Motion Picture, Musical or Comedy, and Best Supporting Actress in a Motion Picture for Gomez.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Gomez got her start in acting at 10 years old when she was on the television series Barney and Friends. She went on to star in several Disney shows before her breakout role in the series The Wizards of Waverly Place.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Since 2021, she has starred alongside Steve Martin and Martin Short as true crime enthusiasts turned podcasters and crime solvers in the Hulu comedy series Only Murders in the Building. The series is currently nominated for three Golden Globe Awards, including Best Actress in a Musical or Comedy TV Series for Gomez. Gomez is also a two-time Grammy-nominated musician.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
She's had 16 consecutive top 40 hits on the Billboard Hot 100, the longest active run of any artist. My interview with Selena Gomez was recorded in November. Selena Gomez, welcome to Fresh Air.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Let's talk a little bit about the themes in the movie. She's looking for freedom because she's married to this very brutal drug kingpin. And so all the things that go along with that life. She has two children by him. It's not explicitly said, but it seems as if maybe she got married when she was very young to him.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
There's a transformation with your husband from male to female, but there's also a transformation of this character. She's like a dormant volcano of a wife. And I want to play a clip. And this clip I'm about to play... It's several years after her husband has had the transition. She thinks he's dead. She goes back to Mexico and she connects with a man who really is the love of her life.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
And in this scene, the two of you, this man, you and this man, you all are in a club and you're singing the song Mi Camino. Let's listen. Yeah.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
You knew what kind of music that you wanted to play as soon as you experienced rock. You experienced, you guys, like so many teenagers during that time period. It was the British Invasion. It was the Beatles.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
That's my guest, Selena Gomez, singing the song Mica Mino in the musical film Amelia Perez. Okay, Selena, this is a liberation song.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
The words. I'm going to read a little bit of the words in English. If I fall into the ravine, it's my ravine. If I double the pain, it's my pain. If I send myself to the seventh heaven, it's my heaven. If I lose my way, it's still mine. I want to love myself. It's a liberation song. And to me, without being too sappy about it, I feel like it sounds familiar to your life path. Do you see that?
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. Today we continue our series featuring interviews from 2024, this time with Selena Gomez and Alex Van Halen. Along with his late brother Eddie, Alex is a founding member of the rock band Van Halen. Known for their extravagant, high-energy performances, Van Halen is credited with being one of the most influential rock bands of all time.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
But she kind of was. I mean, she was 16 when she had you. So she was a young mom.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Do you remember the first time you were on stage, your first performance?
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Right, because you're taking in all the lessons that you all are teaching us, too. Acting is your first love. Music is also what you are known for worldwide. Huge fan base. You've called it a hobby that kind of got out of control recently.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
We're listening to the interview I recorded with actor and singer Selena Gomez in November. She's nominated for two Golden Globe Awards for her performances in the Netflix musical film Amelia Perez and the Hulu comedy series Only Murders in the Building. More of our conversation after a break. This is Fresh Air.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
This is Fresh Air. Let's get back to my interview with actor and singer Selena Gomez. She's nominated for a Golden Globe Award for her role in the film Amelia Perez. The film is nominated for a total of 10 Golden Globes. The award ceremony is on Sunday. Well, for those who don't watch it, Only Murders in the Building, the Hulu series, is centered on you, Martin Short, and Steve Martin.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
You guys are a trio of residents in this really beautiful Upper West Side apartment building called the Arconia. And you set out to investigate a string of murders in the building and start a true crime podcast to chronicle those. the investigation. Martin Short has said, like in all of the interviews, just how much fun you guys have on the set.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
He alludes it to being kind of exceptional in that way. What makes it fun?
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
I want to play a clip from season one. So you all live in the same apartment and you don't really know each other that well, but you're starting to come into this idea that something really fishy is happening here. Your character, Mabel, is joining the two others in Oliver's apartment and Oliver is played by Martin Short and Charles is played by Steve Martin. Let's listen.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
That's my guest, Selena Gomez, with Martin Short and Steve Martin in the very popular Hulu series, Only Murders in the Building. Selena, there's such a tenderness to your relationships with those guys. that seems like it's only grown over the seasons. I was watching, I think I saw you and Martin Short on a TV show recently, and you were showing him how to put on makeup from your rear beauty line.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
I'm really interested, though, in how you and Eddie came to your instruments because at first the guitar was your instrument, right?
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
And it felt natural and connected, like you all are your friends.
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Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Meryl Streep starred in season three and you mentioned how in awe you were those first days on the set. What did you learn working with her?
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
We're listening to the interview I recorded with actor Selena Gomez in November. She's currently nominated for two Golden Globe Awards for her performances in the Spanish-language musical film Amelia Perez and the comedy TV series Only Murders in the Building. More of our conversation after a break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
This is Fresh Air. Let's get back to my interview with actor and singer Selena Gomez. She stars in the Spanish-language film Amelia Perez, which is nominated for 10 Golden Globe Awards. Gomez is nominated for Best Supporting Actress and a Motion Picture. You're 32 years old, right? Yes. And you have so many firsts.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
And your first, not only I mentioned the Billboard 100, you also were one of the 10 highest paid children TV stars of all time. Oh, dear. I don't even think I've read that. Oh, that one's not on your list of like your firsts.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
But your role on the Disney show Wizards of Waverly, I got the sense from your 2022 documentary, My Mind and Me, that you have kind of a complicated relationship with your Disney years, that it made you feel like a product. In what ways did it feel like that?
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
I had a chance to talk with Tyler James Williams a few months ago, another child actor who has gone on to do great things. And like you, he says he really couldn't imagine himself doing anything else in life from a very young age. He knew that was what he wanted. But he also talked about some of the dark sides of being a child actor. And he survived because of his parents, he says. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
He feels like, though, this is an industry that is not really for children, that it eats them up and spits them out. You have been able to have a successful career. And he finds, I just want to say, he said he thinks that anyone who has come out of it whole is a success, even if you're not in show business. Yes.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Yeah, I want to know how you feel about that because it seems that folks like Tyler have a complicated relationship with even the use of children in Hollywood.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
You mean like an audition room or a room to practice or a room to... Room for like meetings, room for anything.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Selena Gomez, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
My interview with Selena Gomez was recorded in November. She's nominated for two Golden Globe Awards, for Best Supporting Actress in the Spanish musical film Amelia Perez, and for Best Actress in the TV series Only Murders in the Building. The Golden Globes are on Sunday, and the ceremony will be hosted by comic Nikki Glaser.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
She's known for her scathing jokes at celebrity roasts, including the roast of Tom Brady, which made headlines. Tomorrow, to end our series of our favorite interviews of 2024, we'll listen back to Terry's interview with Glazer. I hope you can join us.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
And if you'd like to catch up on interviews you missed this week, like our conversations with actors Mark Ruffalo and Sterling K. Brown, or the first part of our program, Remembering Jimmy Carter, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of fresh air interviews.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.B. Nesper. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
That was the late Eddie Van Halen playing a solo. The one and only.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
That entire performance, Alex, is mesmerizing. I mean, Eddie looks like he's having the time of his life.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Alex, you wrote about David Lee Roth, the lead singer. You said this, the bottom line is that Dave desperately wanted to be an artist, but something was always missing. He could never really feel the music. He didn't get the part where you need to resonate with something deeper, something like the eternal force of the universe. That was like a very powerful thing to say about your lead man saying,
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Because his showmanship also seemed to provide something that you and your brother needed, and that was this front man, because people weren't going to shows just to see instrumentalists play during that time period. So first off, you and your brother met David Lee Roth very young. I mean, you all basically started the group together. It was David who came up with the name Van Halen.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Well, Gene Simmons from KISS, he's famously credited with discovering you guys. I mean, and to put this time period in perspective, this was right as MTV was starting. This was right as the visual part of it was coming into play for us, where expectation was there.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Well, I get the sense that before David Lee Roth joined you guys, that you and Eddie would have been fine doing sets in T-shirts and jeans because you were about the music. And he was about the show. And what were some of the things that David would push you guys to do to be showmen?
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
How did you get the idea to set your drums on fire as part of your act?
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Did you end up having to get new drum sets every time? I mean, how did that work?
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
Hot for Teacher was a song from your album 1984. It's one of Rolling Stone magazine's. It was on their list saying that this was the album that brought Van Halen's talent into focus. Let's play a little of Hot for Teacher.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
In a memoir published this year called Brothers, Alex charts both he and Eddie's life and music career, from their arrival to the United States from the Netherlands as kids, to the influence of their father, who was a Dutch jazz musician, and the formation of the rock band in 1974, after meeting vocalist David Lee Roth and bassist Michael Anthony.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
That was Van Halen's Hot for Teacher from the album 1984. Also, humor is a big part of your act. I want to just say that. Absolutely. I know we've been talking about it not being an act. It's who you are, but yes. Yes. But this album overall was pioneering because there's a lot of synth, which was a new sound back then.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
One of the things that you like to make the point of is that you all aren't heavy metal, even though you're put in that category, right?
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
What the hell is that? Right, right. I mean, did you, you watched Spinal Tap, right? Oh, yeah, yeah.
Fresh Air
Alex Van Halen / Selena Gomez
You and Eddie famously for a long time never recorded any music without each other until a request from Quincy Jones for a little known song called Beat It. Let's listen. That was a solo Eddie did on the iconic song Beat It by Michael Jackson. And Alex, I think it was on the charts the same time as 1984, if I'm not... Yeah, it was.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
How did legendary blues guitarist Buddy Guy become part of this project? It was so cool to see him. That was a really cool cameo.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
Has he seen the film? Have you guys talked about it?
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
There is this moment when one of the twins, he says something like, it's better to deal with the devil you know. And he's referring to having lived in Chicago and up north and gone all across the world, but now he's back in Mississippi. And you being a guy who was born and raised on the West Coast in Oakland, your accent gives it away. What did you learn growing up about...
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
Kind of those myths, like you talk about the shame a little bit, but those myths that somehow the West or the North or the East was better than the South.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
You did not grow up with that myth that where you are is better than the South.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
You saw Boys in the Hood at four years old?
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
Five years old in the theater watching Boys in the Hood. Do you remember the scenes that like were seared into your brain that stuck with you? Because that's a real powerful movie for a five-year-old.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
You and Michael B. Jordan, you guys have worked on Fruitvale Station and Creed, Black Panther, and now Sinners. In Sinners, he plays twin brothers. Why twins?
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
So you saw that intimacy of twins up close.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
I want to end asking you about legacy because I heard there was a bidding war over Sinners. And part of the deal was that you'd retain Final Cut and you'd get share of the theatrical opening and eventually own the film outright after 25 years, which I felt like... That's such a boss move. Is that all right, first off? And why was it important for you?
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
Listen now. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, my guest is filmmaker Ryan Coogler. You probably know his name as the director of Fruitvale Station, Creed, and both Black Panther films. Well, his new film is called Sinners, and it hit theaters just last week. It delves into horror with a genre-bending thriller set in 1930s Mississippi.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
Well, I feel like owning Sinners outright after 25 years, I mean, it is a long play. And I just wonder what your vision for this story over that kind of timeline. But is it something that you imagine expanding or revisiting or building upon in the future?
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
Ryan Coogler, this has been such a pleasure to be in conversation with you. Thank you so much for this and thank you for this film.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
Ryan Coogler's latest film is Sinners, starring Michael B. Jordan. It's now showing in theaters. In her new novel, The Dream Hotel, author Leila Lalami plunges us into the story of a woman who is imprisoned solely on the basis that she might commit a crime. Lalami, who was born in Morocco and is now based in Los Angeles, won the American Book Award for her 2014 historical novel, The Moors Account.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
She's also been a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize. Contributor Carolina Miranda reviews the Lamy's novel and the disquieting ways it speaks to our text-saturated lives.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
The story follows twin brothers, Smoke and Stack, both played by Michael B. Jordan. After surviving the trenches of World War I and navigating Chicago's criminal underworld, the brothers return home to Mississippi, hoping to start fresh by opening a juke joint. But peace does not last long.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, filmmaker Ryan Coogler. His films include both Black Panther films and Creed. His latest movie, Sinners, is a vampire thriller about twins, both played by Michael B. Jordan, opening a juke joint in 1930s Mississippi. The film explores themes of race, faith, and American history through the lens of horror.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
Instead, they're met by supernatural forces, vampires, who act as metaphors for oppression, exploitation, and systems that feed on Black life, body, and spirit. I only ever heard stories. I ain't never come across them myself.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
Carolina Miranda reviewed Leila Lalami's new novel, The Dream Hotel. Coming up, actor Noah Wiley will talk with us about starring in the new TV series, The Pit, about a Pittsburgh hospital emergency room. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
I wouldn't state that hard. Ryan Coogler says Sinners is also a tribute to his late Uncle James, who first introduced him to the blues. When he was a kid, Coogler would soak up his uncle's stories about Mississippi as old Delta Blues records spun in the background.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
Coogler's debut into the film world happened in 2013 with Fruitvale Station, which chronicled the final hours of Oscar Grant, a young black man killed by police in Oakland. Since then, he's become the highest-grossing black filmmaker in history and the youngest director to helm a billion-dollar movie with Black Panther.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
He decided to press pause on making Black Panther 3 to take the risk of making Sinners. Ryan Coogler, welcome to Fresh Air and congrats on this film. I have seen it twice and I enjoyed it very much.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
Noah Wiley is an executive producer, writer, and star of the series The Pit, which is now streaming on Max. He spoke with Dave Davies. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
So, Ryan, you put Black Panther 3 on hold. That is a billion dollar franchise, as I mentioned, to make this film in a moment when it seems like Hollywood is kind of playing it safe to sequels and remakes. What made you say this is the story I have to tell now? And even if it means stepping away from the success of something like a Marvel machine, did that feel like a risk?
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
When it comes to a Marvel film, right.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
You said this particular film, Sinners, was like it was on your heart to do. And I want you to take us back to when that idea really clicked for you that not only the creation of a story like this, but that the story didn't have to live in one genre or even one reality because you're blending so much here. I mean, you're blending history, historical drama, action, history.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
They gotta be killed one by one.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
all against the backdrop of 1930s Mississippi. What made you realize that this mix was necessary to fully bring this story to life?
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
Also, Noah Wiley talks with us about his starring role in the TV series The Pit, about life at a Pittsburgh hospital emergency room. Plus, contributor Carolina Miranda reviews Leila Lalami's suspenseful new novel. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
That's so interesting because I really feel it almost with every single character in this film. I want to talk to you in a minute about how you complicate like villains, but the use of vampires in particular to like really articulate the story. One of the vampires says in the film, I want your stories and I want your songs. And that line is very important.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
Yes. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Right. It's important. That's such an important line because it brings into focus that these vampires are like draining more than blood. They're draining culture and identity, but they're also offering something back like in replacement of that. Like, how did you land on using vampires as a metaphor for that kind of extraction? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
But I think it's super fascinating, though, that like when I asked you the question about like what drew you to this story and why you had to tell this story, you said immediately like my life experience is the reason why I wanted to tell this story. What drew you to a vampire story?
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
Director Ryan Coogler's new film is called Sinners. We'll hear more of our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
I'm really struck by what you said that, you know, the blues connected people to their humanity. It reminded them that they were human. And blues serves really as the sound and the soul of this film. Your relationship with the blues, you talk about your Uncle James. What music did he play around you? What was he into?
Fresh Air
Best Of: 'The Pitt' Star Noah Wyle / 'Sinners' Director Ryan Coogler
You being a kid of the 80s and the 90s, what was it like for you to sit at his knee and listen to that music? Did you appreciate it at that young age?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
I mean, it was a beautiful story. It had a wonderful character to play. And I just related on many levels. You know, there's many parallels between us, but I also felt like that was a great jumping off point that I could take this opportunity and really transform into this woman. I was craving to do something like this. I really needed to sink my teeth into something.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
And it came at the right time. And I realized if I had any other life, I couldn't have played Shelley as I did. And it all made sense. I had somewhere to put all my life experience in one way or another. It's in there. Yeah. And we're going to talk about those parallels.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
I mean, I've met with the Jubilee dancers, and they took so much pride in their art form. I love the nostalgia that Shelley always comes back to, that it's about France, you know, it's Lido culture. It's this, you know, it's important. You know, they were treated like movie stars. They are the icon of Las Vegas, even though they don't really exist anymore.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
It was sad to know that there were 85 women on stage and 45 crew members and about 15 people in the audience at the very end, that it was just something that died out and lost to a new culture of, you know, like the dirty circus, she likes to say, that it took more to entertain. And so these art forms die out. And it's about the people that have given their lives to these
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
art forms that are suffering and coming to a crossroads and having to reinvent themselves. And that really resonated with me. I think it's a story about second chances and about the mother-daughter story and trying to find a way to parent as a single mother in an entertainment industry, of course, is another part that I could really relate to and was really interested in.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
dealing with in a film, in hindsight, there's so much to this film that I felt was, you know, cathartic in some ways.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
Well, there was a lot of joy, a lot of pride. And, you know, there's the showgirl walk. You know, the showgirls are not burlesque dancers. They're very far from it. And they told me stories of how they weren't allowed to mingle in the casinos after their performances, that they were to go home and that they were very well protected. By people that looked after them.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
And there was a lot of rules just to keep them safe. And that, you know, they went on to be, you know, in real estate or dance instructors or insurance salesmen, saleswomen or anything. It was just very... I wanted to know what happened after. And a lot of them got married and reconnected with their children. You know, they had children while they were working. And like that scene with Billy...
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
I always say we are going to have to beg forgiveness to our adult children, all of us, that there's just no perfect way to do it and no perfect way to be a parent. And when our adult children, we can actually sit down with them and talk to them about their experience. I think that's a really important conversation. And it doesn't always go well for either party, but it's a start.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
And I think it's something anybody can relate to in any business.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
Yeah, I mean, that probably was about money. I mean, I didn't do this project for money. I did it for the experience. And yes, I feel like when you're a part of pop culture, it's a blessing, but it's also a little bit of a deficit. You have to prove to people, first of all, that you're human and then that you're capable of doing more and being in this industry.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
And I've taken it upon myself to completely... peel it back. I want people to see me as a person and then as an actress. And all my life experience was just research. It was boot camp. So I was learning as I went.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
So people don't realize that when I was shooting Playboy covers, I was also at Samuel French sitting on the ground and reading Tennessee Williams and Eugene O'Neill and Sam Shepard plays, wondering, how do I get from here to here? And it wasn't that I was ambitious. I was just very curious about life and this industry. And I was taking acting lessons.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
And I worked with an incredible acting teacher, Ivana Chubik, who I worked with for a very long time. But really, I had nowhere to put it except for Broadway when I played Roxy in Chicago and this character in this film. And The other two films that I've done this year too. But I feel like I'm on the right track. And it's hard because it feels like two steps forward, one step back.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
I remember just doing this last film with Kareem. I know it's this film called Rosebush Pruning. And I was doing a scene where I was jumping into a swimming pool. And I said, this is it. I'm jumping into the pool. I'm letting all of my life go. Everything that has happened in the past is gone. And he stopped me. And he said, no. No. bring it with you, baby.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
And I was like, yes, I'm going to bring it with me. I just got chills from head to toe. I said, that's so much easier. And you're right. I'm not ashamed of my life. I, of course, in hindsight, might have done things differently, but I needed the life experience to teach me that. And I don't come from a family of actors or artists or cooks or anything. I really had no references and no guidance.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
He masterminded it. Him and Dylan. Dylan is Brandon's ride or die. But Brandon is a great producer and a great visionary. And they're very close in age. They're only a year and a half apart. And it has been an incredible experience to work with them as well. I never thought that would happen. That wasn't my intention when I had kids.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
I didn't think they were going to grow up and be so instrumental in my career. I would never want to take up too much of their brain power. I mean, they have their own dreams, their own businesses and their own lives. So Gia knew that I hadn't received the script because it was turned down within the hour. So she knew that I hadn't read it. And so she thought, I'm not taking no for an answer.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
I'll find Brandon. And that really is the way to get to me. Go through Brandon.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
Well, in my case, I wouldn't miss a baseball game. I had them written into my contracts, actually, when I was doing TV. I have always been there for them. I didn't even have a nanny. So this is kind of unheard of in this business. Not that it's unheard of elsewhere. But I mean, just to say that might sound silly. But I wanted to be a hands-on mom.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
If I was going to have kids, I wanted to raise them. So that's another big difference between Shelly and I is that I put everything aside. But I also put everything aside because I wasn't getting the roles I thought that I wanted. And I was struggling a lot in my personal life too. And my kids were everything to me. And that was really important for me to be with them and put them first.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
I know I was talking to Jamie Lee Curtis and she said she's worked every single day of her children's lives and we all have our way of doing it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
Well, it was difficult, but my kids were with me and I was cooking for the neighborhood and everyone would come over for spaghetti and I was still volunteering at school. Even if I just got home and I was covered in glitter, I was still the one opening the car doors and getting them into their classrooms and then catching my reflection in the mirror going, oh my goodness, mascara down to my chin.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
Oh dear. I was just always there. I was always a fixture. I was always at every game. So all their family and all their friends and their nucleus of people knew that I was a very hands-on mom and that all of this circus around me was the non-real part.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
And I tried to keep them away from it, but Brandon would be pitching a baseball game and he would throw his glove down and look at the paparazzi and say, I'm trying to pitch a game here, boys. Can you leave me alone? The kids would get really upset. So... We got through it. I wouldn't say unscathed.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
It took its toll, but they really understood our life and they understood their father, understood me and understood what was going on. I always thought age appropriate. I should sit them down and talk to them, but of course they hear things through friends and through school and... That was hard, but definitely something to draw from for the film, too.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
My kind of very unique, close relationship to my boys who know their mom's full of, you know, flaws. I actually ad-libbed that conversation on the phone in the movie where I say, mothers aren't saints, that we are just doing the best we can with the tools we've been dealt. And I think about that when I think about my own mother and the things that she went through. And...
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
Sometimes we expect a lot of our parents, but we're human beings and we get through it the best way we can. And if there's love there, that's the most important part.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
At the table read, the first day I met her, she had just gotten a spray tan and she was actually changing colors before my eyes. Her tan was intensifying and her lips were getting quieter.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
A multiple spray tan over spray tan over spray tan. And I told her, I said, I'm so sorry, I'm nervous. And she goes, oh, come on, you can't be nervous with me. And then she grabbed me by the shoulders and she looked me in the eye and she said, I did this for you. We're in this together. And I just got chills from head to toe.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
Any fear went out the window and I felt like I've known her my whole life and I still do. And she's just really an incredible champion for women. And she hadn't seen the documentary. She said she was happy she didn't. She saw it after, but she didn't know much about me. She'd seen me and she knew. She said that I was capable of much more than I'd been doing. And she's been there.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
She's been in different parts of her career and just kind of aching to do more. And so I didn't realize that I'd ever get the chance. So that's why this is so sweet and so precious because it almost didn't make it to me. And then I almost didn't get to do it. And I was happy with... I thought, okay, from Baywatch to Broadway, that has a good ring to it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
At least I got to be on stage, which was wonderful and scary. And I pulled it off somehow. And then this, I realized that Broadway was just the warm-up for this film. I had so much experience. Even the backstage banter is very similar. And so it really was... I didn't know this script was coming, but I was prepared to receive it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
Well, I'm grateful. I'm grateful. I feel the love. I feel rooted for it. But this is a new feeling. That's a part of the reason I came home. I just thought, I need to peel it all back and find out who I am. What are my original thoughts? I felt like I was dressing for other people. I was... you know, playing characters in my personal life.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
So I thought, I'm just going to go home and make a beautiful garden and make pickles and jams and write a cookbook. You know, I felt like I have so much to give and I have, you know, I just don't know where to put it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
Well, since I was little, I mean, since I was, I think it was five or six years old, I realized, I said, I'm not going to recognize myself until I'm older. And I knew it would take about 50 years to get there. And here I am. But I felt like if I was going to be a rock star wife, I wanted to be the best rock star wife. Or if I was going to be a lifeguard, I wanted to put my own spin on it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
I was going to my makeup artist house at three in the morning and you know, with a head full of rollers and false eyelashes showing up on the set and they couldn't do anything about it. I just kind of wanted to do things a certain way and kind of directed my own life experience from fantasy to fantasy to fantasy.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jesse Eisenberg / Pamela Anderson
I had some trauma when I was younger, and I learned how to escape myself. And that is where I learned to transform into other people, I think. You know, looking back, but I forgot who I was. And my only real moments were raising my children and... When I was writing my memoirs, I realized these chapters were so colorful because I had really transformed into these characters.
Fresh Air
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And at different times, I felt like different people. But my first plane ride was to Los Angeles and then to the Playboy Mansion. Yeah, so it just was one thing after another. And I had this amazing, wild, you know, messy life.
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And that gave me a lot to pull from when I was playing this character, but other characters, I feel like my pockets are full of experience, I can access these emotions and this these times in my life. And naturally, it's something that I enjoy doing, but I've been doing it since I was little. I just didn't realize this was a business and this is the way it was going to work out.
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You know, Suzanne Somers had a great line. She said, you can't play a dumb blonde and be a dumb blonde. So part of it was just, I think I had to have a sense of humor, but I also found ways to, if people were going to talk that way to me, I wanted to bring up something meaningful to me, like animal rights. And I found that I could share the attention with something more meaningful.
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And that gave me some relief to know that I could travel anywhere in the world for whatever reason, if it was Baywatch or Playboy, and I could talk about animal rights. And that's what I've been doing to this point. And this is when my sons kind of stepped in and said, Mom, but... We want to tell your story because we know you're capable of so much more too in your career.
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And it's time to focus on you and your career. And you can still do favors for other people, but to focus on what you love. People always ask me, why didn't you do these movie roles? I said, well, these movie roles were not being presented to me. And The relationships really were taking over my life. And I was raising two boys in kind of a chaotic environment where I needed to be with them.
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And from my own experience as a child, I wanted to be with them. I didn't want anybody to look after them other than me.
Fresh Air
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Right. Well, that's part of it. And yeah, I did a lot of favors for friends. I got to work with a lot of incredible photographers and do cameos if it was either for even my brother's friends. I just felt like, okay, they can get this movie made if I do this little funny thing as myself. But these weren't good for me. These were good for other people. And that's what my kids were saying.
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You've got to stop doing that, mom. Like, you get to be you now. You get to challenge yourself. And I've always been carrying this secret. I feel like I've known I was capable of more, but I didn't know what. And doing Broadway really excited me and really felt like, oh, you know, I do have a lot to give. Because if I can do that, I can do anything.
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Well, and it was wonderful because they wanted me to do the role full strength, not watered down. They knew I was capable of it. And so it was, I don't know if I could sing or dance or act on stage, but I felt very comfortable, not comfortable on stage, just free. And I felt like I was home on stage. I really loved it, even though it was so scary.
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You're vibrating backstage before you get out there. But when you get out there, you just feel safe. You feel like no one can hurt you out there.
Fresh Air
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It was another feeling just like this where... I was a painfully shy girl and I hated that about myself. I hated it. It was debilitating. It was paralyzing. And I needed to do something to break free of that. And that was why I said yes to Playboy, not thinking that I could ever. It was just a cover. It wasn't nudity or anything. This was just the cover.
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And then once I came to Los Angeles and did the cover, they talked me into becoming a playmate. I remember calling my mother and her going, do it. I would do it.
Fresh Air
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Yes, she said that. And so I did it. And I was also looking after my parents. And I remember up until then, I was still giving half of my paychecks to my parents. I thought everybody did that. And So it was nice to be able to pay off some bills for all of us. And I've done that since then. I've looked after my family. And it's just what I feel is important to do. How did Playboy even discover you?
Fresh Air
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There was a few times they'd come up to me. Actually, one time I was at a bus stop and someone came up to me and asked me, because I was standing next to an advertisement of myself. I was getting the bus and there was a bus ad of me at the fitness center that I used to work at, the tanning salon at. They asked me to do their ads. So then I, someone said, is that you? And I said, yes.
Fresh Air
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And he goes, oh, I'm so-and-so from Playboy. Would you consider shooting for Playboy? And I was like, absolutely not. I would never do that. And then Marilyn Grabowski called me at my house because my number was listed, you know, just called Pamela Anderson, Kitsilano Beach, and she found me. And on the phone, I was having an argument with my boyfriend or fiance at the time, actually.
Fresh Air
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I've been engaged many times. And she was asking me if I would come to shoot a cover of Playboy. And she said, if we like it, we'll print it. And I said, well, call me when it's for real. And I hung up and my boyfriend or fiance was really mad at me. And she called back and she said, no, it's for real. And I said, okay. And I just took my purse and I ran out of there and I didn't come back. Yeah.
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The rest is history. I know, it sounds crazy. And the rest is history. I thought, what am I doing staying here? This is no fun.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Education & A.I. / Having A Child In The Digital Age
Let's get into the experiment that you did on your own life back in November. So you allowed your life for a week to be controlled by generative AI, and you had it decide just about everything, your meals for the day, your schedule, your shopping list, what to wear. Also, you uploaded your voice for the tool to clone, your likeness to create videos of you.
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And what was so interesting about this experiment to me, in addition to what you did, is that each of these AI tools you revealed has its own personality, and I'm putting that in air quotes. But how did those personalities show up when you inputted your requests?
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I mean, what makes Claude special then? Because if it's saying no to that prompt, but all of the others are saying yes, what makes it stand apart in this field? It's a result of training.
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You had it plan out meals. I'll tell you, when I read that, I actually perked up like, oh, wait a minute, you know, because we have to choose what's for dinner every single day, seven days a week till we die. I mean, it's just something we always have to do. How did that feel to let it plan out your meals and grocery lists? And did it do a good job?
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Were there any tools that you felt like, oh, I could keep this in my life and it would improve my life?
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Best Of: Education & A.I. / Having A Child In The Digital Age
And it chose what color for you?
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Best Of: Education & A.I. / Having A Child In The Digital Age
You know, Kashmir, you're deep into this world because of your job. You've done these experiments. You've talked to so many experts.
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After that article came out with your experiment back in the fall, you asked yourself, if you want to live in a world where we're using AI to make all of our decisions all the time, it almost feels like that's not even a question really because we are seeing it in real time. But I'm just wondering, what did you come to?
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And how it will distort our ability to interact with each other.
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Best Of: Education & A.I. / Having A Child In The Digital Age
Kashmir Hill, thank you so much for your reporting and this conversation. Oh, thank you so much for this conversation. It was wonderful. Kashmir Hill is a tech reporter for The New York Times. In 1971, the year after the Beatles broke up, John Lennon and Yoko Ono moved from London to New York.
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They spent the next 18 months living in a small Greenwich Village apartment before moving uptown to the Dakota, a more lavish and secluded building. During that time, they held a benefit concert for the children of Willowbrook, a state-run Staten Island facility housing the disabled in horrifying conditions.
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This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. We are living in the age of AI, and for a while now, chatbots have been helping students take notes during class, put together study guides, make outlines, and summarize novels and textbooks.
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It was the only full-length concert Lennon gave after the Beatles, and a new film by Kevin MacDonald documents both the concert and that period in Lennon's life. It's called One to One, John and Yoko, now streaming on demand. Our TV critic David Bianculli has this review.
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But what happens when we start handing over even bigger tasks, like writing entire essays and work assignments, and asking AI to help us figure out what to eat and how to reply to emails? Well, professors say more and more students are using generative AI to write essays and complete homework assignments.
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One survey by Pew Research found that about a third of teens say they use it regularly to help with schoolwork. But it's not just students. Professors are also using generative AI to write quizzes, lesson plans, and even soften their feedback. One academic called ChatGPT said, a calculator on steroids. And universities are working to establish guidelines and using software to track AI use.
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David Bianculli is professor of television studies at Rowan University. He reviewed One to One, John and Yoko, now streaming on demand. Coming up, journalist Amanda Hess talks about how technology is changing motherhood. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
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From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, New York Times tech reporter Kashmir Hill returns to the show to talk about a surprising twist in who is using generative AI. Colleges and universities have been trying to fight against students using tools like ChatGPT. to do class assignments and communicate.
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My next guest is Amanda Hess. She's a journalist, cultural critic, and now author of a new memoir titled Second Life, Having a Child in the Digital Age. The book starts with a moment every expecting parent dreads, a routine ultrasound that is suddenly not routine. When Hess was 29 weeks pregnant, doctors spotted something that indicated her baby could have a rare genetic condition.
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What followed was a spiral of MRIs, genetic testing, consultations with specialists, and like many of us would do, a late-night dive into the internet for answers.
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That search led her down a rabbit hole and to fertility tech, AI-powered embryo screening, conspiracy theories, YouTube birth vlogs, the performance of motherhood on Instagram, and threaded through it all, an unsettling eugenic undercurrent suggesting which children are worth having.
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Known for her commentary on internet culture and gender at the New York Times, Hess turns her critique inward, asking herself, what does it mean to become a parent while plugged into an algorithmic machine that sorts scores and sells versions of perfection and what's considered normal? Amanda Hess, welcome to Fresh Air.
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You opened this book with a moment that I mentioned, soon-to-be parents fear. That's a routine ultrasound that shows a potential abnormality. And at the time, you were seven months pregnant. What did the doctor share with you?
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One of the things you do in your writing that's really powerful is you integrate the ways that technology really infiltrates every waking moment of our lives, including this particular moment when the doctor looked at your ultrasound. And I'd like for you to read about this moment just before you receive that news from the doctor. You're on the sonogram table.
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You're waiting for the doctor to arrive. And as you're lying there with that goo that they put on your stomach to allow for the ultrasound wand to glide over your pregnant belly, your mind begins to race. Can I have you read that passage? Sure.
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But some students are now pushing back on that, saying that many of these detection tools are inaccurate. Well, today we're joined by New York Times tech reporter Kashmir Hill, who has been tracking how AI is reshaping daily life and the ethical gray zones it poses.
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Thank you so much for reading that, Amanda. I think that every soon-to-be mother, every mother can really identify with that. And I think just in life, we've come to this place with our relationship with technology that we can kind of Google our way out of tough moments.
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You write about receiving that first alarming warning of this abnormal pregnancy and how even before getting a second or third opinion that clarified this diagnosis, your mind didn't jump to something you did, but to something that you were. And that moment seemed to crystallize kind of this deeper fear about your body and how it surveilled and judged, especially in pregnancy. Yeah.
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Last fall, Hill actually used AI to run her life for a week, choosing what to wear, eat, and do each day to see what the outcome would be. Hill is also the author of Your Face Belongs to Us, a secretive startup's quest to end privacy as we know it. which investigates the rise of facial recognition tech and its disturbing implications for civil liberties. Kashmir Hill, welcome back to Fresh Air.
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Can you talk just a little bit about how technology also kind of fed into your judgment about yourself?
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Is there something inherently different about an app and us being able to hold these technologies in the palm of our hand and constantly have access to them? I'm thinking about when I was a pregnant person and I just had all the books around what to expect when you're expecting and other types of text.
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Is there something inherently different about our relationship when it is presented to us in the form of technology that has a different effect on us?
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That sense of reassuredness, too, I want to talk a little bit about, like, the privilege in that. Because on the face of it, it's like the ability to know and understand that all seems positive. I'm thinking about...
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like some of the big technologies that are coming into fruition now or already there, like OpenAI, Sam Altman's funding of the genomic prediction, which is supposedly going to offer embryo tests predicting everything from diabetes risk to potential IQ of a baby. But you actually point this out in the book that there is a growing divide because on one side,
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There are these affluent parents who have access to this kind of screening. And then on the other, many parents can't even get basic access to prenatal care. How did your experience kind of help you reflect on those extremes?
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Hi, Tanya. It's so nice to be here. You know, I was talking with a professor friend recently who said he really is in the middle of an existential crisis over AI. He teaches a writing intensive course called And he actually worries that with these tools, his job might not even exist in a few years.
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I want to talk a little bit about this idea of surveillance. So your work as a cultural critic, you often touch on surveillance, both state and personal. And in this book, You describe how new parents also surround themselves with surveillance tech, so baby monitors and nursery cameras that are constantly watching. And of course, in our daily life, we're all under so many forms of surveillance.
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How do you think this surveillance culture is affecting us? Or how did it affect you in those early days as a mother when you've got that baby monitor in your baby's room? Like, are we habituating our children to be watched 24-7?
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And so I wanted to know from you, can you give us a sense of just how widespread the use of this generative AI is, how it's become kind of a commonplace on college campuses and schools?
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Oh, you can see it from his perspective, right?
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Best Of: Education & A.I. / Having A Child In The Digital Age
Right. I mean, this goes back to your ability to control the situation. I remember there was a time when I think our baby monitor went out in the middle of the night. So I woke up from a deep sleep. It's 8 o'clock. I'm like, wow, we slept for like eight, nine hours. And I realized that the baby monitor had died. Yeah. I was completely, okay, I was completely freaked out.
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Like, what if I miss like a catastrophe that happened? But then when you think back, it's like, okay, if that were the situation, I would have heard it. I mean, I have my senses. Do you feel like these technologies in many instances kind of take us outside of ourselves from we're like giving control over to the technology?
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Well, Amanda, I really appreciate you writing this book, and thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us about it. Thank you so much. Amanda Hess is a journalist, cultural critic, and author of the memoir Second Life, Having a Child in the Digital Age. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.
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Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Our consulting video producer is Hope Wilson. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
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That's because there are words and phrases that are used so commonly that then they become part of the generative AI and it's spit back out.
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You know, this isn't surprising to me because people, especially students, always are trying to find a shortcut. Plagiarism has always been an issue in academia. But the stories we are hearing are kind of astounding.
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Your latest piece kind of turns the tables because you took a look at how professors are using generative AI to teach, and what did you find?
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Best Of: Education & A.I. / Having A Child In The Digital Age
Well, Hill's latest article reveals how professors and educators are now turning to AI to prepare lessons, teach, and even grade students' work. Also, New York Times writer Amanda Hess talks about motherhood in the digital age, navigating a world where apps, surveillance tech, and a relentless stream of algorithmic advice have become par for the course of pregnancy and parenting.
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Wow. Where is the learning in this? And I'm just wondering what professors are actually saying. I mean, I guess a big part of it, as you write in this article, seems to be a resource issue. Some professors are overworked. Others have multiple jobs. They might be an adjunct professor. But what are some of the things that they're sharing with you about why they're doing this?
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Plus, David Bianculli reviews One to One, the new documentary about John Lennon and Yoko Ono. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. At a time of sound bites and short attention spans, our show is all about the deep dive. We do long-form interviews with people behind the best in film, books, TV, music, and journalism.
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Okay. I'm just curious. It's just dependent on the subject, I would guess, but is AI good at grading? Yeah.
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I actually even noticed that you asked professors in the comments section of this latest article to share what their universities are doing. But did you find any that are putting in effective guidelines, any institutions?
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You know, one of the things that I keep hearing about is how hit or miss these detection tools are as a way to combat this. And one of your colleagues at The Times actually just wrote an article about how sometimes these detection tools get it wrong.
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There was a student in Houston who received a zero after a plagiarism detection tool identified her work as AI-generated, but she actually could prove that she wrote it herself. I was wondering, how common is this?
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Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, we are talking to Kashmir Hill. She's a tech reporter for The New York Times. And we're talking about the growing use of artificial intelligence in our daily lives, from the classroom to the workplace to our homes, and the deeper consequences that come with it. We'll continue our conversation after a short break.
Fresh Air
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I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
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Here our guests open up about their process and their lives in ways you've never heard before. Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.
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It feels like a love letter to Los Angeles, which feels especially... just watching it for me, a tinge of like sadness a bit just with all that has happened with the fires, you know?
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Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
My guest is Seth Rogen. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
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Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
So there's this particular episode and there's a scene in the episode where your character is dating a doctor. Yeah. And she takes him to – I think it's like a cancer fundraiser.
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Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
And he – while talking to fellow doctors and researchers who are like looking for cures for cancer and stuff, he gets into an argument and he says to a group of them, you all – something like, you all save lives. Yeah.
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Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
That is like the most absurd non-self-aware statement ever. But Seth, it also is kind of true.
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Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
There's also like this storyline about being scared of – about whether something is racist. And that's hilarious because, like, it just goes through all these different iterations. Is that a situation that you've had to deal with in real life?
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Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Is there a story that comes to mind that happened in real life?
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Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Yeah. There's also the funny scene where to make sure. So in the case, like the alien, like in The Voice, you go to like the one person of color in the place. Oh, yes. Is this OK?
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Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Because so much of your material comes from a personal place. Have you ever gotten a note from an executive that felt like an insult?
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Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Well, wasn't there that note from that executive or something about Jonah Hill's character is super bad?
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Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
But the thing about the Superbad one, I mean, Jonah's character is based on you.
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Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Seth Rogen, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you, and thank you for the studio.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Seth Rogen's new satirical comedy series, The Studio, premieres on Apple TV Plus on Wednesday, March 26th. Rock critic Ken Tucker has been listening to new music releases, including new songs by Teddy Swims, nominated as Best New Artist at this year's Grammy Awards, and Benjamin Booker, who Tucker says is doing interesting things with volume and distortion.
Fresh Air
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There's also an old pro in the mix here, Neil Young, who has a new band and a new song that Tucker says heralds some big changes. Here's his review.
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This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Let's go back to the year 2000. A young Seth Rogen and his writing partner, Evan Goldberg, have arrived from Canada, and they're meeting a studio executive to go over a screenplay they've written together. During the meeting, the executive makes a cynical confession. "'I got into this job because I love movies,' he says.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, my guest is Seth Rogen. He created a new Apple TV Plus series, The Studio, which is a satirical look at how executives in Hollywood make decisions on what movies get made. Seth stars as the head of a fictional Hollywood studio who is trying to save the struggling company.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
"'And now I feel like my job is to ruin them.'" Rogan and Goldberg never forgot what that executive said, and 25 years later, they've made it the basis of a new satirical comedy series on Apple TV Plus called The Studio. Rogan plays Matt Remick, a Hollywood executive who gets an unexpected promotion as the head of the fictional Continental Studios after his boss is fired.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Ken Tucker reviewed new songs by Teddy Swims, Benjamin Booker, and Neil Young. Coming up, we'll talk with The New Yorker writer Andrew Marantz about his latest article, The Battle for the Bros, which is a look at why many young men in America have gone MAGA and the battle on the left to bring them back. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
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Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
California Governor Gavin Newsom recently joined the Manosphere, the world of political podcasts, streams, and YouTube channels where young men have become the new MAGA vanguard.
Fresh Air
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The Democratic governor says the purpose of his new podcast is to have unfiltered conversations with people he doesn't always agree with. And so far, he's had on far-right media stars, many of whom were instrumental in Donald Trump winning the election.
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Well, my guest today, The New Yorker staff writer Andrew Morantz, looks at how Democrats are attempting to win back the support of young men in America, those they lost during the 2024 election.
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And for his piece, Morantz spent time with several high-profile podcasters and streamers, like Hasan Piker, a leftist star on the livestream platform Twitch with more than 3 million followers, who's known for modeling modern masculinity with progressive politics.
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Morantz's article, The Battle for the Bros, Young Men Have Gone MAGA, Can the Left Win Them Back?, appears in the current copy of The New Yorker. And Andrew Morantz, welcome back to the show.
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Democrats lost support with nearly every kind of voter. But the defection that alarmed strategists the most was this significant jump in young men who voted for Trump or no candidate. And this comes at a time when men are in crisis, as you write, relative to their forefathers and their women counterparts. Men are more likely to fall behind in school.
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Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
In this scene, the studio CEO, played by Bryan Cranston, offers Matt the job but asks if he has what it takes to do it the Continental way.
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Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
They're more likely to drop out of college, languish in the workforce, or die by overdose or suicide. How did the right not only tap into that grim reality, but also offer a space for male grievance?
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Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Well, relatable is a word that just keeps coming up in your piece. And you write about several notable personalities, influencers, streamers, podcasters. One of them is comedian and podcaster Theo Vaughn, who I personally have known since he was on MTV's Real World Road Rules back in the 2000s. So for most of his career, though, he has been apolitical.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Can you talk about the power in that built-in trust through familiarity? Theo has been around for like 25 years. I mean, Donald Trump is a perfect example of this. He built a relationship with Americans as an entertaining figure for decades. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
It's like a... They're the proxy for the audience.
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Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
I want to play a clip from Theo Vaughn's show. It's when he had on social scientist Richard Reeves, who you also spoke with. Reeves is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and president of the American Institute for Boys and Men.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
And he talked to Vaughn about how men are struggling to find purpose in today's world and how during the pandemic, there was lots of research being reported about how the isolation would impact women and girls, but not necessarily men and boys. And here's Theo's response.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
That was podcaster and comedian Theo Vaughn and social scientist Richard Reeves on Theo's podcast. Andrew, you write about how at one point during this particular conversation, Theo said, I'm not speaking against any other group. I'm just saying you can't make white males feel like they don't exist. He's saying basically that mainstream media.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
primarily focuses their attention on the plight of people of other identities. And no one is really telling the stories of the disaffected male. Is that something that you heard during your reporting often?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
You said you had a theory or you found it interesting that many of these guys are comedians. Why is that? Have they just found their lane within the podcasting space?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
I want to follow the money just for a minute. Are a lot of wealthy donors funding these podcasters and influencers on the right?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Have you been listening to these podcasters since Trump took office and how are they approaching it?
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Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
There's so much more to your article. We scratched the surface. But really, I just want to know from you. I mean, the title is The Battle for the Bros. Young men have gone MAGA. Can the left win them back? What did you come to after all of your reporting? Is it possible for the left to win them back?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Andrew Marantz, as always, thank you so much.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Andrew Marantz is a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is The Battle for the Bros. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. With additional engineering help today from Diana Martinez.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
From there, the audience is taken on a funny but also absurd and often cringeworthy adventure as Matt, always flustered and desperately needing to be liked, has to find ways to keep the studio afloat. Seth Rogen has produced, directed, written, and starred in many films, including Superbad, Knocked Up, This is the End, Sausage Party, and the limited series Pam and Tommy.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
He founded the production company Point Grey Pictures, along with his writing and directing partner, Evan Goldberg. And the two have founded the cannabis products and home goods company, Houseplant. And Seth Rogen, welcome back to Fresh Air.
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Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Well, I really want to go back to this time, 2000. You and Evan are in this executive's office.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
And he says this thing to you, like, I now ruin movies. Like, what was your reaction? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
And he says the job of a studio executive in real life is the funniest in all of Hollywood.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
I mean, that's the thing. You have a lot of sympathy for them because of this – Very formative experience for you. But also, you say it's like the funniest job in all of Hollywood.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Is it true that you interviewed almost every Hollywood executive for this series?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Also, New Yorker staff writer Andrew Marantz joins us to discuss his latest investigation into how right-wing podcasts, streams, and YouTube channels have become the platforms where men who feel disillusioned and alienated go to feel seen and heard, and the battle on the left to win them back. Plus, rock critic Ken Tucker reviews new songs by Teddy Swims, Benjamin Booker, and Neil Young.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Yeah. Okay. Let's get into the series because I think you said something like 85% of what is in it is actually true to some extent.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
And talking about interviewing these executives. Yeah. If this stuff is true, oh, my gosh, because it's like the cringiest scenarios ever.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
OK, the characters are phenomenal. I mentioned Catherine O'Hara, who is she was your boss. She was fired and you take over her job. Ike Barinholtz, who plays this powerful lower level executive desperate for power. He is hilarious.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Katherine Hahn, who plays this aggressive marketing chief with lots of opinions. Chase Suey Wonders, who plays an ambitious young executive. And she does a couple of shady things to light it over.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
And then there's the host of actors and filmmakers with very, very fragile egos. And then how would you describe your character, Matt Remick?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
He's also walking around all the time terrified.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
That's like the great tension of the series. So it's set in present day and all of these executives, they're up against the real challenges of the moment. AI plays a big role. Racial sensitivity. There's all these different things. But your character, he wants to make art.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Okay, I want to play a clip. In this scene, Matt, your character, goes over to his old boss's house, played by Catherine O'Hara, Patty, to seek some guidance. And the two talk about how he's handling being the new head of the studio. And O'Hara speaks first.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
That was Catherine O'Hara playing the role of Patty in the studio and also my guest today, Seth Rogen. And that's the basis for this whole series. But, you know, I wanted to – this particular scene was really powerful because we understand, like – his motivations. And then she as a wisdom, you know, person with wisdom gives kind of the larger context there. But it's also so beautiful.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Seth Rogen / Can The Dems Win Back The Bros?
Like you guys are standing on an overlook, overlooking LA. And the show and the character's wardrobe is all very much old Hollywood. It's just interesting, the juxtaposition between the visual and then The current day struggles that they're dealing with.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Tanya Mosley with Fresh Air Weekend. Today, how Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star and provided the foundation of improvisation for other musicians.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Terry has our first interview. I'll let her introduce it. Here's a question for you.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
Ricky Riccardi's new book is Stomp Off, Let's Go! The Early Years of Louis Armstrong. He spoke with Terry Gross. In the new film I'm Still Here, the Brazilian filmmaker Walter Salles tells the true story of a Rio de Janeiro mother who reinvents herself when Brazil's military dictatorship goes after her husband.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
The movie has been Oscar-nominated for both Best Picture and Best International Feature Film. Its star, Fernanda Torres, has been nominated for Best Actress. She's already won the Golden Globe, and our critic-at-large John Powers says, I'm Still Here is a moving, inspiring, beautifully made story about learning to confront tyranny.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
John Powers reviewed the new movie, I'm Still Here. Coming up, we'll talk about the loneliness epidemic with writer Derek Thompson, author of a recent article in The Atlantic called The Antisocial Century. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
Recently, my guest, writer Derek Thompson, took his family out to dinner and noticed that while the restaurant was bustling, he and his family were the only people actually sitting down to eat. Every few minutes, a flurry of people would walk in, grab bags of food, and walk out.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
The restaurant's bar counter had become, as he puts it, a silent depot for people to grab food to eat at home in solitude. In February's issue of The Atlantic, Thompson writes about the phenomenon he calls the antisocial century. More people are choosing isolation over hanging out with others, and we can't blame it all on COVID-19. This trend started before the pandemic.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
The problem is that humans by nature are social beings, and the consequences of isolation are stark. Our personalities are changing, as well as our politics and and our relationship to reality. Former Surgeon General Vivek Murthy said, we're in the midst of a loneliness epidemic. Derek Thompson is a writer for The Atlantic and the author of the Work in Progress newsletter.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
He's also the author of the books Hitmakers and On Work, Money, Meaning, Identity, and the host of the podcast Plain English. His new book, Abundance, co-authored with Ezra Klein, comes out in March. Derek Thompson, welcome to Fresh Air, and I'm excited to talk with you again.
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Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
Okay, Derek, I think a lot of us would assume that what you saw when you were out to dinner with your family members is just a holdover of the pandemic, but you actually trace this isolation even further back. What did you find?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
Okay, Derek, when I hear you say this goes back 60 years, I'm just thinking the consequences then must be more profound than we realize. And technology is at the heart of it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
Your article makes a distinction between solitude and loneliness. And this was probably, for me, the most profound part of your piece because we actually are under this assumption that all of this me time, I think a lot of us, I should say, not everyone, but that this me time is good for us.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
It's like a form of self-care because it's like as if the world is so overstimulating that we need all of this time alone.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
That sociologist that you talked to that told you like loneliness is a healthy response and that it is the thing that pushes us off the couch, out into the world, that kind of makes it sound like our phones might actually be blocking us from feeling that natural instinct. But yet people feel like they're being very social by being on their phones and being on social media sites and stuff.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
Okay, Derek, let's talk a little bit about political polarization. I love the subtitle of this section of your piece. It's called, This is Your Politics on Solitude. How has all of this isolation, how has it changed our politics?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
You actually say that this kind of helps explain progressive, stubborn inability to understand President Donald Trump's appeal. Say more about it.
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Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
You know what's so interesting about what you're saying, too, is that I feel like we were having this conversation in 2016 when there was this indictment on elite in mainstream media that like somehow the mainstream media missed this Trump wave. And from 2016 to now 2025, I mean, we're still here with this baffled, like people are baffled by the phenomenon that you're talking about.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
How much of a role does media play in this issue as well?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
Okay, Derek, short of some sort of apocalyptic ending of the internet that would force us to look up from our phones and at each other, what can we do to combat this?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
We talk with Ricky Riccardi, author of Stomp Off, Let's Go, The Early Years of Louis Armstrong. And we also hear from writer Derek Thompson. He's done a deep dive into our nation's loneliness epidemic and how our phones have become a barrier to real human connection. His recent article in The Atlantic is called The Antisocial Century.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
Derek Thompson, I always really enjoy talking to you. Thank you so much.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
Derek Thompson is a staff writer at The Atlantic. His recent cover story is called The Antisocial Century. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
Also, critic-at-large John Powers reviews the Brazilian film I'm Still Here. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Louis Armstrong's Early Years / Our Anti-Social Century
We're listening to Terry's interview with Ricky Riccardi, author of the new book Stomp Off, Let's Go! The Early Years of Louis Armstrong. We'll hear more of their conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
Richard Kind is currently in the Netflix series Everybody's Live with John Mulaney, and he spoke with Terry Gross. And the new TV series Your Friends and Neighbors, Jon Hamm, stars as a rich hedge fund guy who loses his job and turns to crime to pay for his exceedingly high bills. The show, which also stars Amanda Peet, has already been renewed for a second season by Apple TV+.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
Our critic-at-large, Jon Powers, calls it a sharply entertaining series that harkens back to earlier portraits of suburban life but gives things an up-to-date spin.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
Terry Gross has our first interview, and she started it like this.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
John Powers reviewed Your Friends and Neighbors, which is now streaming on Apple TV+. Coming up, Melinda French Gates talks about her new book, The Next Day, which reflects on motherhood, grief, philanthropy, and life after divorce. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. Our next guest is Melinda French Gates. Five years ago, she stood at a crossroads.
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Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
After 27 years of marriage to Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates, she decided to walk away, not only from the relationship that had defined much of her adult life, but eventually from the philanthropic empire they built together. Last spring, Melinda left the Gates Foundation, the organization that had become the heartbeat of her professional identity.
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Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
In her new book, The Next Day, Transitions Change and Moving Forward, Gates reflects on these seismic shifts, not just the end of her marriage or the reinvention of her public life, but the deeply personal evolution that came with those transitions.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
She takes us inside the moments that have defined her, becoming a mother, grieving the loss of one of her best friends, and grappling with the hard-earned lessons of philanthropy. Melinda French-Gates is the co-founder and former co-chair of the Gates Foundation, the world's largest private charitable organization.
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Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
She's also the founder of Pivotal Ventures, which focuses on social progress for women and families in the United States. Melinda French-Gates, welcome to Fresh Air. Thanks for having me, Tanya. Melinda, I want to talk for a moment about your philanthropic work because we all have been hearing about the ripple effects of the Trump administration's funding cuts.
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Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
And I know that philanthropy is such a tightly interwoven web that often works in collaboration with the government to fund initiatives. How are these cuts affecting the work that you do?
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Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
How are you thinking about where to focus your energy? I know that over the last few years with Pivotal Ventures, you've really been focusing on women's health and reproductive rights. And so this has to have an impact on the ways that you all are able to make impact.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
Is it a chaotic line of work in this moment? Because you're dealing with new information that's coming out, laws that are passed, changes, cuts. All of these things put so much of your work in flux.
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Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
One of the things that is very clear in this book is that It's a reminder that really no amount of wealth can really protect us from the human experiences of grief and divorce. And I'm sure you often encounter people who treat you like your money shields you from those life's hardships.
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Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
I just always wonder, how do you navigate that tension of what to share and what to withhold, knowing that someone like you is viewed that way?
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Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
You grew up in a middle-class family in Dallas, Texas. Your dad, what a role model for you. He was an aerospace engineer. Your mom stayed home to care for you and your siblings. Your father really had an influence on your career aspirations. You write about how this wasn't just conceptual. You all would get to see and hear conversations about his work.
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Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
through visitors who would come to your house. What memory sticks out to you the most?
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Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
Your father, he showed you all role models, of course, but he also he really invested in your you and your sister's dreams in a way that I mean, it really is somewhat novel for that time frame in the 60s and 70s. What do you think was different about your dad and his outlook on on what women do and what they could do?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, actor Richard Kind. You've seen him on countless TV shows and films during his 40-year career. Only Murders in the Building, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Spin City, Mad About You, and A Serious Man, just to name a few. He's now the announcer and sidekick on Everybody's Live with John Mulaney. Plus, he knows how to tell a joke.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
Your mom never got to go to college, but she wanted to. She did.
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Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
One of the things that you really admired about your mom, of course, is that she was a great mother, but she, through example, taught you also how to be a great mother. So you have these two big examples in your life of how to be as you move through the world. But one of the best pieces of advice you write that your mother gave you was to set your own agenda or someone else will do it for you.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
And I was wondering, what is a time when you had to really put that advice to the test?
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Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
It's really interesting in this moment that what was seen as a soft issue is now almost the opposite of that. You're fighting against many headwinds as divestment and women's issues is really like at the center of government funding cuts and lots of other cuts and laws.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
Speaking of values, earlier when you said you've been trying your best to give your money away, I chuckled at that. But I only chuckled because it just sounds funny, you know. But when you're a billionaire, right, you can't really ever give all your money away. And just a few days ago, Abigail Disney, she's the granddaughter of Walt Disney, she said in an interview that,
Fresh Air
Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
Anyone who can't live off of $999 million is a sociopath. And, of course, I thought about you because you've been saying this in not so many words for a really long time, that it's important to give your wealth away, that you could never really spend it in your lifetime, you or your family. But here's a question.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
You've been trying to convince other billionaires to give away the majority of their wealth for many years now. And I always wanted to know how successful has that been?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
Melinda, I really appreciate your time in this book. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me, Tanya. Melinda Fritsch-Gates' new book is The Next Day, Transitions, Change, and Moving Forward. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.B. Nesper. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
Oh, I got lots of them. Nobody tells a joke better than I do. He'll share one of his favorites. Melinda French Gates also joins us to talk about her new book, The Next Day, which reflects on motherhood, grief, philanthropy, and life after divorce. Gates is the former co-chair of the Gates Foundation and founder of Pivotal Ventures, which focuses on advancing women and families.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
And John Powers reviews the new TV series, Your Friends and Neighbors, starring Jon Hamm. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Richard Kind / Melinda French Gates
We're listening to Terry's interview with Richard Kind. He's currently in the Netflix series Everybody's Live with John Mulaney as Mulaney's sidekick. We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
My guest today, comedian Roy Wood Jr., takes the serious, sometimes absurd stuff we deal with in everyday life and makes us laugh about it. Even news events that on the face of it are kind of scary, like white men in America gravitating to militia groups.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
That's Roy Wood Jr. in his latest comedy special Lonely Flowers on Hulu. It's Wood's take on how isolation has sent society spiraling into a culture of guns, protests, rude employees, self-checkout lanes, sex parties. And he also talks about why some of us would rather be alone than connected. Wood is known for his razor-sharp wit.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
He spent years on the stand-up comedy circuit, dissecting pop culture and current events. And for nearly eight years, he was a correspondent for The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Wood currently hosts the CNN News Quiz show, Have I Got News For You, which was adapted from a long-running British series under the same name. Roy Wood Jr., thank you for being here and welcome back to Fresh Air.
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Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
You know, at the end of that clip I just played, you heard the beep. That was the N-word. It was part of the punchline that you use in the joke. And it almost is like an exclamation point. And I know that you have weighed whether you use it. I think you talked about in another special how your uncle was like trying to not use it himself.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
Right. He's on the N-word patch. How do you decide when to use it in your comedy?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
I did notice, though, I mean, I noticed when you were on Conan O'Brien, his podcast, you used it and he didn't laugh, you know, because he kind of, it also can make people uncomfortable. Right. It can make people, they don't know if they can laugh at it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
Okay, I want to play another clip from Lonely Flowers. In this clip, you're talking about grocery shopping and how it seems like most store clerks have been replaced by self-checkout. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
That was my guest today, comedian Roy Wood Jr. in his new comedy special on Hulu called Lonely Flowers. Roy, I love that joke because, I mean, of course, you went to the most extreme example. But all of us, we do get a little dopamine when we have nice interactions like that. And we are getting less and less of them, you know?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
You know, writer Wesley Laurie said about you a few years ago, he wrote that you occupy this space between 1990s Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle in the early 2000s. Do you agree with that?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
And bringing up Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle, I also thought about is like, what does it mean for you to keep yourself grounded so that your humor feels connected to the larger sentiment? You know, as you become more and more successful, is that something that you think about?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
How much time do you take to study your peers, other comedians?
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Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
I've been thinking a lot about the journalism industry with the decline and
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Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
trust and the fractured attention spans and as you said earlier you feel like comedy is a form of journalism but through your role on the daily show as a correspondent in this new news quiz show i want to know from you like that hasn't always been the case where you know you you actually studied journalism and then you decided to be a comedian but when did it become clear to you that wait a minute this thing that i'm doing as a comedian is actually a form of journalism
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Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
At what point in your life did you discover you were funny?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
What was your ROTC coach or teacher instructor saying to you?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
But you went to college for broadcast journalism. You got into some trouble, though, with the law that changed your trajectory. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
She didn't know. She didn't know about your arrest?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
Yeah. Why were you doing that? Why was the credit card ring the way to make money? Because I assume it was about making money.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
And you had all types of jobs, too, didn't you?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
Your dad, you mentioned Roy Woods Sr., he did not pay taxes, as you said, but he was a pioneering radio reporter in Birmingham. I mean, he covered the civil rights movement. He co-founded the first black radio network.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
Yeah. Did you get to be around his work much when you were growing up?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
He also was like, I mean, he was the news guy. You describe him as the voice that we would hear on the car radio in the morning, giving the news on the way to school, on the way to work. It just got me thinking about how much radio, that kind of media, it leaves an imprint on us. But it's also ephemeral, you know? Do you have any tapes or recordings of his work still?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
He wasn't jokey. He was not silly, but he did help create one of black America's great contributions. Soul Train.
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Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
Please. Yeah. You please tell us the story.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
Did he ever talk about that with you? Nope. And did you ever talk to him?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
You mentioned your son, and I'm just wondering, as your son gets older, are there any parts of fatherhood that you're like, now I understand, looking back at your dad?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Learning From Silence / Comic Roy Wood Jr.
Roy Wood Jr., this was such a pleasure. I could talk to you forever, but thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
That was Terry Gross speaking with Rami Youssef. His new animated series is called Number One Happy Family USA. It's now streaming on Amazon Prime Video. Well, up next is my conversation with Danny McBride. His latest show, The Righteous Gemstones, just finished its fourth and final season.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
It's a dark comedy about a rich Southern family of televangelists who talk about salvation on TV, but behind the scenes it's all dysfunction, greed, scandal— and sometimes even crime. We watch throughout the show's run the most ridiculous antics, a mass baptism and a wave pool gone wrong, a full frontal parking lot fight scene, and the gospel banger misbehavin'.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
At the center of the Gemstone family is Eli Gemstone, played by John Goodman, and his three deeply flawed adult children, who are constantly caught up in rivalries and schemes to keep their religious empire intact.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
In this scene I'm about to play, the three siblings, played by McBride, Edie Patterson, and Adam Devine, are trying to convince their dad, Eli, who is retired as the head preacher, to come back to the church for a fundraising event to honor their late mom. Goodman's character, Eli, who speaks first in this clip, has left town on a boat to escape the church and the family.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
Danny McBride has built a career, really an empire, as a writer, actor, and producer with a sharp sense for the ridiculous side of masculinity and ambition. He creates men who are loud, delusional, and hilarious, in part because they are totally unlikable.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
Think Kenny Powers, the trash-talking, washed-up baseball player in Eastbound and Down, or Neil Gamby, the petty, power-hungry vice principal in Vice Principals. His films include This is the End, Tropic Thunder, and Pineapple Express.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
Most of the Righteous Gemstones was filmed in and around Charleston, South Carolina, where McBride has carved out his own version of Hollywood South with his longtime collaborators, David Gordon Green and Jody Hill, running their production company, Rough House Pictures. And Danny McBride, welcome back to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
Remind us of how this idea kind of came about. I read that you initially wanted to write something about the Memphis Mafia right around the time that Elvis died.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
You mentioned that your family was religious. What did that look like?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
When you were helping your mom with her puppet shows, were you working on ideas too? I'm thinking about you as a young storyteller.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
You know, one of the things about the series I find remarkable is – Like it skews this world of big time preachers and televangelists, but it never feels like it's mocking the sincerity of their faith. And I'm just wondering, how did you find the balance like between, I guess I would say like satire and respect?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
Like did you ever go too far in your writing and then think, OK, I got to pull this back a little bit?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
Our guest is Danny McBride, creator and star of The Righteous Gemstones. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. My guest today is Danny McBride, actor, writer, and the creative mind behind HBO's The Righteous Gemstones.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
He's also known for his breakout role as Kenny Powers in Eastbound and Down and the unhinged school administrator in Vice Principals. The Righteous Gemstones, which just completed its fourth and final season, is a satirical comedy about a dysfunctional Southern televangelist family. I got to play a clip to give people kind of a grounding of this.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
The thing about the Gemstone kids is that I don't think anybody ever really talks the way they do, and yet they kind of feel really believable. So this clip I'm about to play is from season two, and it's the three siblings, you, your sister, played by Edie Patterson, and your brother, played by Adam Devine, and you all are standing by. this statue of your late mother.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
And you've got this announcement to make that soon you will be the head of the church. And of course, the three of you start fighting. Your character speaks first. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
That was a scene from season two of The Righteous Gemstones. And my guest today is creator and star of the show, Danny McBride. Okay, first off, Danny, take me inside your brain. What do you know about Bye, Felicia?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
One of the through lines, in addition to like trying to inherit an empire, the thing that you do in The Righteous Gemstones is all of the children absolutely adore and worship the memory of their mama. And that love feels so authentic. The mother wound they obviously have by her loss, it almost feels like it's what makes them good and redeemable.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
It feels like they also really do love the Lord, despite the fact that they're obviously messed up.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
Have any church families or people just in general reached out to you and said, this is us?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
Right, you're trying to avoid him. I was thrilled. What percentage of the show is kind of ad-libbed?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
Let's listen to that scene, which was in the second season.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
That was the scene from season two of The Righteous Gemstones. And my guest today is creator and star of the show, Danny McBride. Did you grow up with a lot of cursing around you?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
Well, it definitely is infused in your shows. How do you navigate, like, the children on set and stuff when there's all that cursing? Which I should say it's gratuitous, but it also, like, really works. I just always have to watch your shows when my kids are out of the room, you know?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
Okay, something I really wanted to know. Your character, Jesse, in the Gemstones, and if we go way back to Kenny in Eastbound and Down, they both have like swagger. You know, like the way that you walk, you kind of have this like gangster lean. And since you like brought up two live crew, I'm bringing this up. Is that how you move or is that part of the characters you play?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, Rami Youssef. His new animated comedy series, Number One Happy Family USA, is about an Egyptian-American Muslim family living in New Jersey after 9-11, trying to blend in and doing everything they can to avoid being seen as a threat. At the heart of the story is a middle schooler dealing with a double dose of paranoia.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
Now that I'm thinking about it, even that clip I play where you're like, bye, Felicia, as you're walking away, that is the George Jefferson walk, 100%. It totally is. Yeah. There's something in all of your characters. You know, you present as a really nice guy, but there's something in all of your characters. They're all kind of terrible.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
And I'm just wondering what interests you about these types of people, the Kenny's of the world, the, you know, Jesse's of the world, you know?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
David Green and Jody Hill, you guys have been longtime partners for a really long time. When did you guys know that you all had something special?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
And film schools at that point- Is that what you mean when you say it was not in the cards for you? Do you mean because of the cost or- Yeah, there was just no way that, yeah.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
You know, I read that. Is it true that Kanye West approached you and asked you to play him in a biopic? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
Did he talk about what he sees in the characters you play and how you like really draw out these themes that really spoke to him?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
That had to be flattering though, even if it was kind of crazy, I guess.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
That's love there, right? When the kids are like, watch me.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
Well, Danny McBride, I just want to thank you for all the joy that you brought me and so many others with The Righteous Gemstones. And thank you for this conversation.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
Danny McBride is the creator and co-star of The Righteous Gemstones.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
Also, Danny McBride talks about his HBO series The Righteous Gemstones, about a wildly dysfunctional family of televangelists fighting for power, influence, and their father's approval. We get into what keeps drawing him to these hilariously flawed, emotionally stunted characters, and he shares the surprising inspiration behind the signature swagger his characters always seem to carry.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ramy Youssef / Danny McBride
We're listening to Terry's interview with Rami Youssef. His new series is called Number One Happy Family USA. We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Comic Bill Burr / Actor Simu Liu
Bill Burr's new comedy special, Drop Dead Years, is streaming on Hulu. Our next guest today is actor Simu Liu. He's best known for his breakout role as Shang-Chi, Marvel's first Asian superhero in the film Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. Now he stars with Woody Harrelson in the new film Last Breath. He spoke with Fresh Air's Anne-Marie Baldonado.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Comic Bill Burr / Actor Simu Liu
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Terry Gross has our first interview.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Comic Bill Burr / Actor Simu Liu
From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, comedian Bill Burr. Lately, he's been trying to control his anger.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Comic Bill Burr / Actor Simu Liu
Actor and writer Simu Liu speaking with Anne-Marie Baldonado. His films include Shang-Chi, The Legend of the Ten Rings, Barbie, and his new film, Last Breath. More after this break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Comic Bill Burr / Actor Simu Liu
Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nakundi, and Anna Bauman.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Comic Bill Burr / Actor Simu Liu
Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Comic Bill Burr / Actor Simu Liu
He traces his anger issues to his upbringing. Let's talk a little bit about your childhood.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Comic Bill Burr / Actor Simu Liu
We'll also hear from actor Simu Liu. He's best known for his breakout role Shang-Chi, Marvel's first Asian superhero, and being a rival kin in the film Barbie. Now he stars with Woody Harrelson in the new movie Last Breath about deep-sea divers who perform a life-saving rescue. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Comic Bill Burr / Actor Simu Liu
We're listening to Terry's interview with comic Bill Burr. His new comedy special, Drop Dead Years, is now streaming on Hulu. We'll hear more of their conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
John Batiste's new album is called Beethoven Blues. Our book critic Maureen Corrigan's picks for the best books of the year range from alternative history to suspense to satire to some of the most extraordinary letters ever written. Here's her list.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. Coming up, we hear from Mickalene Thomas. Her paintings and mixed media creations explore race, sexuality, and femininity. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Terry has our first interview. I'll let her introduce it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. And our next guest is multidisciplinary artist Mickalene Thomas. Black women are front and center in her work, and her subjects are often at leisure, resting on couches and chairs, sometimes clothed, sometimes fully nude, accentuated by rhinestones and rich, colorful patterns.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
The scale of her paintings often make them feel larger than life, with the eyes of her subjects gazing directly at us. Thomas's art made me think about the slew of recent articles in the New York Times, Associated Press, Teen Vogue, and others that delve into the sentiment many Black women felt after the outcome of the presidential race.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
One headline read, Disillusioned by the election, some Black women are deciding to rest. Thomas's art showcases Black women not in servitude, as often depicted in fine art, but at leisure, claiming space. She often recasts scenes from the 19th century French paintings, centering Black sensuality and power.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
And she's also collaborated with singer Solange for an album cover, and she painted the first individual portrait of First Lady Michelle Obama, which was displayed at the National Portrait Gallery. Her latest exhibition, All About Love, is midway through an international tour with stops in Los Angeles, Philadelphia, and France.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
It features 50 paintings, collages, and photography spanning over two decades, inspired by the women in her life, including her mother, who died in 2012. Mickalene Thomas, welcome to Fresh Air, and I know you're battling a cold, so I want to thank you for taking the time to talk with us with this raging cold.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
I want to talk about this latest conversation that many Black women are having, because as we know, Black women sit at this intersection of race and gender, which for better or worse, actually means that our existence is political. And I'm just wondering, as an artist whose muses are Black women, how would you describe your art and the messages that it's conveying?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
You grew up in Camden, New Jersey, about 15 minutes from the Barnes in Philadelphia, where your latest exhibit is showing. And for those who don't know, that museum is really steeped in the classics. It prides itself in showing the world's finest artists. So Matisse and Picasso are shown there.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Your art has been shown worldwide, but what does it mean for you to have your work shown at a place like the Barnes, just really not too far from where you grew up?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
They had never seen it prior to.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Yeah. I think it's so interesting, you know, artists who create work and the world sees it. I mean, the world sees your nude body and your mother in repose. But those who are the closest, you feel like there's the most anxiety around showing it to them. What has been their reaction?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
How did it feel for you to have them receive it?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
For a span of time, you actually had museums that... were resistant to showing your work. And you believe that it had to do not with the subject matter, but how your subject matter was presented, like how you were presenting the Black body. Can you say more about that?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Trauma or I think you've said like servitude or entertainment.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
I found this to be like an interesting idea when you brought this up because it was something that I hadn't thought about when you said this. I thought, well, I've seen lots of art where there are black bodies, nude black bodies.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
But what's different about yours, once I reflected on what you're saying, is that – so, for instance, there's a painting of a black woman who's nude and she's leaning back in a chair. Right. Like people can interpret that as sexual, but it's not sexual.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
It's just a body leaning back on a chair. And it's also not performative in the entertainment sense either. It just is.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Because you're right, because many of your subjects are looking right at you, like straight out at you.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Your work is so layered. You use the collage, as we talked about, but sequins and rhinestones. And at first, you were using those materials because you didn't have the money for paint. But you've continued to use them.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
And what would you do to get those?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Right, right. There's still so much paint when you open that up inside.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Is it true that you're near the age that your mother was when you started photographing her?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Do you see her in the mirror when you look at yourself?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Your mom got to see a lot of your art before she passed.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Mickalene Thomas, thank you so much for this conversation.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Mickalene Thomas is a multidisciplinary visual artist. Her latest exhibition, All About Love, is on view at the Barnes Foundation in Philadelphia. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Music Today, John Batiste joins us at the piano to play his reimaginings of music by Beethoven and more. His new album is called Beethoven Blues. We'll also hear from visual artist Mickalene Thomas. She puts Black women in the front and center of her work.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Her latest exhibition, Mickalene Thomas, All About Love, mostly centers on the women in her life. It's currently on view at the Barnes Foundation in Philadelphia. And book critic Maureen Corrigan shares her picks for the best books of the year. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
In a stunning new film, my guest Adrian Brody plays a Hungarian refugee who escapes post-war Europe and arrives in the U.S. with dreams of rebuilding his life. The Brutalist is a multi-layered story that runs three hours and 35 minutes long with a 15-minute intermission. And for me, the time flew by. Directed by Brady Corbet, the film explores the harsh realities of the American dream.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
And it's visually stunning, shot on a format known as VistaVision. It's what Alfred Hitchcock used to film North by Northwest in Vertigo. Brody portrays a fictional character named Laszlo Toth, who settles in Pennsylvania in 1947, where he meets a wealthy industrialist played by Guy Pearce, who recognizes his talent and hires him to create a community center in honor of his mother.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
However, the relationship between the two comes at a cost. The sweeping nature of The Brutalist is reminiscent of Brody's work in The Pianist, where he captivated audiences and the Academy in 2002 with his stirring performance as a Jewish pianist from Warsaw who survived the Holocaust by hiding from the Nazis. Adrian Brody has been in a slew of films and television shows.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
His breakout role was in Spike Lee's 1999 film Summer of Sam. In 2002, at 29, he became the youngest person to win an Academy Award for Best Actor. He's a regular staple in Wes Anderson films, having starred in five of them, including The French Dispatch, Fantastic Mr. Fox, and The Grand Budapest Hotel. The Brutalist just won the Golden Globe for Best Motion Picture Drama and
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
And Adrian Brody, one for Best Actor in a Motion Picture Drama. Adrian Brody, welcome back to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
There are so many layers to this film, many of which are personal to you. Your mother is a Hungarian refugee who fled the revolution in 1956 and started again here in the United States. Can you take me to that day that you first got the script? And was the connection immediate?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
What did your mother share with you about her experience immigrating here?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
You know, the other thing I'm hearing from you is because you say that like you were made for this role, that you were able to, through your life, just in your mom's way of being, understand that immigrant experience of coming here with nothing and trying to make a life out of it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
What's the thing that they say to you that reminds you?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
The film is set in Philadelphia, but am I right that it was shot in Hungary because of the environment in Budapest? It was like the closest thing to recreating that time period, that kind of minimalist, almost bleak post-World War II aesthetic. Had you spent a lot of time there before?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
I know you've been acting since you were very young. How old were you when you first started?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
Twelve years old is a remarkably young age to feel so directed and passionate in what you do. Were your parents leading you? Were you leading the charge? How did it come about that you took this on at that age?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
It wasn't just a public school. You're talking about the school, the high school that the film Fame was based on, right?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
What was that first role? What were your roles when you were first starting out at 12?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
You talk quite a bit about your mother and your father's influence. Your mother, this noted photographer. She used to be a staff photographer for the Village Voice, you say. People will say to you, oh, you are the son of Sylvia because she's so well-respected. And your father is an educator. But I'm curious, growing up, how did your mother's work and seeing her in her creativity change?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
maybe influence your thoughts on the perceptions on what you could be? And had you thought about being anything else? Was acting just like a foregone conclusion?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Tilda Swinton / Adrien Brody
made art and its accessibility very um tangible and and and available adrian brody it's been a real pleasure to talk with you about this latest work and your work overall thank you so much
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
It's hard to describe Sarah Snook's performance in The Picture of Dorian Gray. Snook plays all 26 characters in this stage adaptation of Oscar Wilde's novel from 1890. It feels like you're watching a two-hour sprint. She's giving a nonstop monologue, a crazy athletic solo performance.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
For those who don't remember this gothic horror story, it's about a young man, Dorian Gray, who falls in love with his own beauty when an artist friend paints a portrait of him. He loves his own image so much that he makes a wish, a Faustian bargain, that allows him to stay young and beautiful while his portrait ages and decays.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
the show uses pre-recorded snippets of snook playing different characters projected on huge video screens there are cameras iphones and lightning quick costume and set changes all used to tell this story that culminates in dorian spiraling and ultimately facing his sins and his mortality when sarah snook did this play for a run in london last year it earned her an olivier award
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
which is the British equivalent of a Tony. This isn't the only award that she's received. She won an Emmy and two Golden Globes for playing fan favorite Shiv Roy, the daughter of Logan Roy on the show Succession. Sarah Snook was born in Australia where she went to drama school and received many accolades for her work on stage and screen.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
Her films include Jobs, The Dressmaker, and Memoir of a Snail. Sarah Snook, welcome to Fresh Air. Hi, thanks for having me. Well, the creator of this adaptation, Kip Williams, a fellow Australian, when he approached you about taking on this role or these roles, what was your response? I read that you said that if you had seen the show, you might not have agreed to do it. Yes.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
As we've mentioned, you play all characters in this show, and you're also the narrator of this story. How do you differentiate between the characters? Do you develop the characters in the same way you would if you were just playing one part in a play, if you were slumming it and only playing one part?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
And how do you develop these different voices if you could talk a little bit more about that and then how do you keep them straight?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
Now, in an interview, I heard you say that when you were a kid, you used to love listening to cassettes of poems of Roald Dahl. And you used to memorize them. And I tried to find it online. I couldn't actually find it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
But I was thinking that if you memorize those poems and they were read by British actors, listening could have been like great training for you doing The Picture of Dorian Gray, which is a bunch of different flowery British characters.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
Through the help of cameras and recordings of you doing the other parts, you're actually acting opposite yourself. Is it odd to be acting with yourself as a scene partner? And this is like a version of yourself that was recorded a few years ago.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
Well, the performance is highly choreographed. You have to be very precise. You have to get to a mark or where you're supposed to be in time for you to interact with a recording of that you performed as another character. You say there are sequences where you have like seconds to get lines out. Otherwise, the scene cues will be off.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
I think of them as the characters. One thing I want to add about the play is that it's funny. Not only the turns of phrases or the performance, but there's also this cheekiness to it. Like the narrator is a bit cheeky. And there are also other choices that you make. The way you switch from character to character can be quite funny.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
I want to ask about Succession. The show is about a rich and powerful family. The patriarch, Logan Roy, played by Brian Cox, runs a media company. His health is deteriorating and his children are jockeying for control of the company for power and, of course, for their dad's love. You said that originally you didn't want to audition for the role of Shiv Roy.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
I'm guessing this would have been like over or around 10 years ago now. Why didn't you think the role was right for you at the time?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
Do you remember what you did or what your take on it was that might have sort of, even though you originally didn't think it was the role for you, made them take note of you to be Shiv?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
Like that's like a little above it, but also like showing up angry and wanting to win the test. Yeah, exactly.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
There you go. Yeah. Well, it occurred to me that the way Succession was filmed may have had some similarities to the way you perform your current role in Dorian Gray. I think that for Succession, there were numerous cameras following the cast as they did scenes, kind of like the cameras that follow you on stage.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
Wait, so you would sort of perform the scenes and it was kind of the camera people's job to sort of anticipate where you might go with it?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
Yeah, the thing about your character Shiv, she's an observer. She sometimes hangs back and watches as her brothers, her father, people in the company interact. And she seems to process it. And you can see that on your face. Can you talk about how you thought about Shiv as an observer? Yeah.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Michelle Williams / Sarah Snook
Well, Sarah Snook, thank you so much for joining us.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, we're joined by a New Orleans institution, clarinetist and vocalist Doreen Ketchins. She's got several nicknames, Lady Louie, Queen Clarinet, and Miss Satchmo, all after her biggest idol, Louis Armstrong. Like the jazz great, Doreen has the gift of hitting long, high notes.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
Please tell the story of how the clarinet became your instrument, because it's an infamous story that you tell, that you started playing to get out of a pop quiz in elementary school.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
And it worked out pretty good. You're classically trained. When did jazz become your genre? Lawrence.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
And for those who don't know, I mean, he's a legend, but he was an acclaimed pianist and educator and his sons, of course, too.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
So that's how I started playing the jazz. Is it possible for you to play us something to give us an example of the difference between the classical clarinet that you were really into before Lawrence and then what you ultimately came to do?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
So, you know. Doreen Ketchins, thank you so much.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
When slavery ended in 1865, newly freed Black Americans began to search for their lost family members, taking out ads seeking information about children, spouses, siblings, and parents. In her new book, Last Scene, historian Judith Giesberg tells us about the stories of people who placed those ads. Book critic Maureen Corrigan has a review.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
Doreen Ketchins has many nicknames, Lady Louie, Queen Clarinet, and Miss Satchmo, nods to her passionate performances of Dixieland and traditional jazz, and for her ability to hit and hold high notes for long periods of time, like the great trumpeteer Louis Armstrong. Ketchins has performed for four U.S. presidents, Bill Clinton, George H.W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, and Jimmy Carter.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
And initially, she played classical clarinet before her late husband, Lawrence Ketchins, introduced her to jazz while the two were students at Loyola University. Lawrence was an accomplished musician in his own right, too. As part of Doreen's band, he played the tuba, valve trombone, drums, and piano, becoming a major attraction for his ability to play the sousaphone and drums at the same time.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed Last Scene by Judith Giesberg, who also founded the Last Scene Project website. Coming up, we'll hear my conversation with the White Lotus star, Natasha Rothwell. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. This has been quite a year so far for my guest Natasha Rothwell.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
She returns to the third season of the popular HBO show The White Lotus. Her Hulu series How to Die Alone, which she created and starred in, recently won an Independent Spirit Award for Best Ensemble Cast in a New Scripted Series. The win is bittersweet because the show, which premiered last September, was canceled after just one season.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
Rothwell's return to the White Lotus signals a deeper dive into the tension between entitlement and servitude, which has been present along with murder in every season of the show. It follows the storyline of seemingly picture-perfect travelers with various dysfunctions who go to the White Lotus resort to escape.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
In the first season, Rothwell's character Belinda is a spa manager at the Hawaii location. She meets a wealthy visitor named Tanya, played by Jennifer Coolidge, and the two strike up a friendship. Belinda shares her dreams of opening up her own spa with Tanya.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
We watch as Tanya flakes on Belinda, never funding her dream to open a spa, instead running off with another guest who goes on to con and attempt to have Coolidge's character killed. Well, in this latest season in Thailand, Belinda experiences the other side of the guest staff dynamic as a visitor taking part in a White Lotus exchange program.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
Natasha Rothwell is an award-winning actor, writer, and series creator. Her early start in comedy included a stint as a writer on Saturday Night Live during the 2014-15 season. She also starred in HBO's Insecure as Issa's hilarious and sexually liberated friend Kelly. She also served as a writer and supervising producer on the show. Natasha Rothwell, welcome to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
First, let's talk a little bit about The White Lotus because fans of The White Lotus were very happy to see you return, intrigued because we know that your return means something pretty big. And this season, she's at the Thailand Resort. So she's there to relax and, as I said, learn a few new things to bring back to the resort in Maui.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
Well, in the clip I'm about to play, your character, Belinda, shares what she's been through to a wellness expert assigned to train her, Pon Chai, played by Dom Hedrickle. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
A few years ago, Ketchins fulfilled her dream of performing at the Kennedy Center. She's also played with orchestras around the world. Doreen Ketchins, welcome to Fresh Air. Thanks for having me.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
Ah. That was my guest today, Natasha Rothwell, in the latest season of The White Lotus. I have to say the music is always like the other character in the room, isn't it? It's just what Mike White does with music. It's so special. It really is. This season is in Thailand. But, you know, something that I found so interesting is Mike White, who is the writer, the creator of The White Lotus.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
You know, season one, he had no idea what he had on his hands. You're just making this cool thing and you don't know how the public will receive it. I mean, it is such a hit now. How different was it for you on the set for this one versus the first season?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
You were shooting in Hawaii during COVID.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
I want to offer my sincerest condolences on the loss of your husband Lawrence who just died this past January and I had the pleasure of going down the rabbit hole of watching your performances and aside from being utterly captivated I was also just taken by what felt like magic watching the two of you performing together. Are you still performing?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
How long did you guys spend in Thailand to shoot?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
There is a theme in the show of mindfulness, and there are lots of references to Buddhism. And really, for these characters, the visitors of this resort, they're coming to grips with the ugliness of who they are and their individual ways. Yeah. Did you have a spiritual experience while you were in Thailand or was it work, work, work?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
And can you describe or explain, like, give an example of what you mean by that? Like the differences?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
Right. Oh, that's so interesting.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
There is a scene in the show, it's where you're waiting for dinner and you see another Black guest there. That was written into the show because you mentioned it to Mike White, right?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
There are so many themes that this series unpacks through these individual characters and their journeys. Is there any one in particular that really lights you up or you really are thinking deeply about as you're watching this series? Because it's actually quite deep when you start to think about these issues of servitude and white privilege and wealth and access and all of that?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
You auditioned for SNL. You ended up being a writer. Tell me a little bit about that audition and that time period. Because this is, if I'm correct, this is like the time period when they were looking for a Black woman.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
What was your audition? Do you remember?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
Just even thinking about it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
Is there something you wrote that you are most proud of on the show?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
I actually have a clip of this. So Taraji P. Henson hosted the show in 2015. And at the time, she was starring in the Fox show Empire as Cookie Lyons. And the name of the monologue is I Made It. Let's listen to a little bit.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
She and her band, Doreen's Jazz New Orleans, have performed on the corner of Royal and St. Peter Street in the French Quarter for almost four decades. And we'll also talk with Natasha Rothwell. She returns to HBO's The White Lotus as Belinda, a spa manager who was duped in season one by a wealthy visitor played by Jennifer Coolidge.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
I could've been an extra on the Lion King. Could be wearing some giant toucan wings. Could be trying to make some bachelors holler. Could be twerking on a pole for a dollar. I could've been a hip hop video ho. Did it once or twice, but not no more. That was Taraji P. Henson in 2015 in her opening monologue on SNL written by my guest today.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
I love that. Like, it's part monologue, it's part song. Did you write the song?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
It seemed like there was such a great love between the two of you, and your love language was the music. You all performed together for many decades, and I think maybe a beautiful way to start our conversation is to actually hear a little bit of the two of you. I watched this video of you two performing for the New Orleans Jazz Station, WWOZ, and
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
It's also so real, you know, like all the things that she listed, it goes on to say like all these other things that, oh, these things you take for granted that show that I made it. She made it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
So it was never a dream of yours, even not seeing yourself?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
Natasha Rothwell, this was such a pleasure. Thank you so much.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
Natasha Rothwell is an award-winning actor, writer, and series creator. She plays Belinda in the current season of HBO's The White Lotus.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
And there you are, playing the clarinet and singing, and Lawrence was playing sousaphone and the drums at the same time. I don't actually think I've ever seen that in my life. I was thinking, how? Can I play a little bit of that performance? Yes, please. The song is House of the Rising Sun.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
That was my guest today, Doreen Ketchins and her late husband Lawrence playing House of the Rising Sun. Doreen, what a remarkable performance. I mean, as I mentioned, Lawrence is playing the drums and blowing into that sousaphone, which is a type of tuba, at the same time. How did he figure out that he had that talent?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
And book critic Maureen Corrigan reviews Last Scene, a book about newly freed Black Americans in the 1860s, who took out ads to find lost family members. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
One thing I noticed is that you've got a growl that, you know, it's not only present in your singing voice, but we also heard it while you were playing the clarinet. How do you do that? Like you make your clarinet growl.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
You know, to watch you perform, you really are, you're like putting your whole body into it. Your eyes are closed. And I mean, I guess that's not unusual. I mean, when you are like intensely focused on your instrument, I've heard you say when you're playing, you're constantly digging for more information within yourself.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
And I was like, wow, really taken by that, but also wonder more of what you mean.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
It's amazing. Is there a favorite Armstrong? I know that's like asking, is there a favorite child? But is there a favorite song of his that you love or you go back to often?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
Do you have your own take on that favorite, on your favorite Armstrong song? And if so, can you play a little bit of it, not the whole thing, but just a bit?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
Thank you so much for that. I mean, you're nicknamed all of these names, you know, Lady Louie for a reason. And that's very clear, some of the reasons why. But I'm very curious to know, when did you first discover yourself in Armstrong? Do you remember when you first heard that within his music yourself?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. And if you're ever in the French Quarter in New Orleans, chances are you've spotted my guest today, clarinetist and vocalist Doreen Ketchins. For over 30 years, she's performed on the corner of Royal and St. Peter Street, four days a week, sometimes 12 hours a day, with her band, Doreen's Jazz New Orleans.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jazz Clarinetist Doreen Ketchens / 'White Lotus' Actor Natasha Rothwell
My guest is clarinetist and vocalist Doreen Ketchins. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend. Doreen, you're a fixture in the French Quarter of New Orleans, but tell us a little bit more about the area that you grew up in.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
A savant when it comes to sound, huh? Would you say that?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Well, I think it's interesting. I have met a few people, but not a lot of people who comment on all of the sounds around it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
I'm just imagining a young little Ariana in front of the television looking at Judy Garland. Was there a particular line of hers or any part of the film that comes to you that you used to impersonate?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
I don't want to overspeak, but did you ever feel like people thought of you as a pop star and maybe not hefty enough to take on a role like this?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. The musical Wicked is a top contender at this year's Academy Awards with 10 Oscar nominations, including Best Supporting Actress for my guest today, Ariana Grande.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Wicked has become somewhat of a cultural phenomenon, introducing new layers of the story of Oz that really challenge audiences to look beyond surface appearances and question preconceived notions of good and evil. Ariana Grande stars as the privileged and popular Galinda, who develops a friendship with Elphaba, played by Cynthia Erivo, born with green skin and ostracized by society.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
One of the things about a movie like Wicked, I mentioned right off the top that it's a cultural phenomenon, is that it has now become for young people like the same thing that the Broadway play was for you at a young age, but in a more accessible way because it's a movie. So kids of all walks of life who won't ever be able to see a theater production can now be a part of this in a real way.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Mm-hmm. You've had firsthand experiences with people who shared with you how much this movie means to them. Can you share some of that with me?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Ariana Grande, thank you so much for this conversation. It's been such a pleasure to meet you and congratulations on your Oscar nomination.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Ariana Grande has been nominated for her role in the movie musical Wicked. The film has received 10 Oscar nominations. The new Bob Dylan movie has put our book critic Maureen Corrigan in a New York state of mind. Here's her review of two quintessential New York books.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
As a prequel to The Wizard of Oz, the film is set years before Dorothy arrives in Oz, and it charts the transformations of Elphaba into the Wicked Witch of the West and Galinda into Glinda the Good. Here's Grande, as Galinda, singing Popular, a song that gives insights into her character.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, Ariana Grande joins me to talk about the cultural phenomenon of Wicked. She's nominated for an Oscar for Best Supporting Actress in the musical film, where she stars as Galinda, set years before The Wizard of Oz. Grande and I talk about some of the underlying messages in the film about belonging and good versus evil.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed This Beautiful Ridiculous City by Kay Sahini and A Town Without Time by Gay Talese. Coming up, writer and dominatrix Brittany Newell talks about her new novel Softcore, which is set in San Francisco's underworld. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
My next guest, author Brittany Newell, loves to write about the secret worlds of others, the things people do, she says, to make their lives more bearable. Her newest novel, Softcore, takes the reader into San Francisco's underworld of dive bars, strip clubs, and BDSM dungeons, where tech bros, executives, and outcasts live out their fantasies.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Ruth, the protagonist, is a stripper who unravels when her ex-boyfriend, a ketamine dealer, disappears. Ruth, known by her stripper name, Baby Blue, starts working as a professional dominatrix where she tries to fulfill the deepest desires of her clients, who mostly want to talk to her about how lonely they are and the grief they carry. Brittany Newell draws from personal experience.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
In addition to being a writer, she is also a professional dominatrix. A graduate of Stanford University, she studied comparative literature and gender studies and wrote her debut novel, Ula, in 2017 when she was 21 years old. It's been described as the millennial Lolita. Newell has written for the New York Times, Joyland, and Playgirl.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
She and her wife run a monthly drag and dance party called Angels at Aunt Charlie's Lounge, which is one of San Francisco's oldest queer bars. Now, before Brittany and I get into our conversation, I want to warn you that this is an adult conversation, not appropriate for children, and we'll be talking about adult themes and topics, including sex work.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
With that, Brittany Newell, welcome to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
I'm over the moon. Yes, well, thank you for being here. I really enjoyed your book. It was such a good read. And I want to know, first off, how much of soft core is fiction and how much of it is based on real life?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
I mean, I could see why, knowing that your main character, Ruth, she has a master's degree. She's working in these underworlds. And like you, you are a Stanford graduate. And you have a really interesting story into your foray into these worlds, which we're going to get to in just a moment. But Ruth, the protagonist in the book... She's also known as her stripper name, Baby.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
And one of the more powerful elements of your writing is that you not only explore what's in it for the guys that she services, you also explore outside of money what's in it for her to be a stripper and a dominatrix. How would you describe Ruth?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Well, one of the things that Ruth does throughout the book is kind of make clear that she sees herself as average. And she does this like in her description of her physicality, what she looks like. She's like the girl next door. I think that she said that she made men's mangy dreams come true. Why was it important for Ruth to be kind of an average girl with an average body in this world?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
How did you go from being a Stanford graduate to a dominatrix?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Right, because you did study queer periods and contemporary fiction.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Yeah, yeah. Okay, this is so fascinating to me because one of the things in reading this book that I kept thinking about is that you also have to sit in this seat of non-judgment for all of the requests that come to you.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Is there ever a moment where you do judge or where do you put yourself as far as your mental space to come to the table so that you can accept whatever, as long as you're safe, of course, whatever is being requested of you or brought to you as a fantasy?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Has there ever been an instance where you've seen these men in real life, in day-to-day life, at the grocery store, at the post office? And if that's the case, like, you just pretend you just walk on by.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Right, because that's part of the fantasy is it stays what's in the dungeon stays in the dungeon.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
You know, you're young. We kind of bask in the glow of Ruth's youth in this book. Even though she does encounter OGs, like the woman who runs this home, this house, you know, BDSM house. Is there a life cycle for this kind of work? You know, I think it's obvious like for stripping, for instance, but like in particular to be a dominatrix, is there an end date?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Ariana Grande says that from the moment she first saw the musical on Broadway at 10 years old, her life was divided into two chapters, before Wicked and after. True. This is true?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Do you know other careers that other doms have gone to once they leave this kind of work?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Brittany Newell, thank you so much for this book. It was such a fun read and this was such a delightful conversation. Thank you.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Brittany Newell is the author of the new novel, Softcore. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Sam Brigger is our managing producer. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Ariana Grande, welcome to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Bea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
You know, this movie has become a cultural phenomenon. And it's so interesting how the subtext really speaks to the time period that we're in. It's a timeless story, but it also is very timely. Yeah, very timely. You first saw Wicked on Broadway at 10.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
What was it about Wicked? Because I know that you were somewhat of a theater kid. You were seeing lots of musicals, but this one in particular really spoke to you.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
And she says growing up performing, basically being a theater nerd, actually prepared her for this role.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
You could see the smile in her eyes.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Oh, my gosh. I want to play a little bit from the film so that folks can get an idea of your voice training that you're talking about. Oh, sure. I mean, you are known for your four-octave range, but... Your acting is on full display in the film, but as you mentioned, you really had to get your voice in shape for this. And so let's play a little bit of No One Mourns the Wicked.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Also, writer and dominatrix Brittany Newell joins us to talk about her new novel, Softcore, which explores the underworld of San Francisco's dive bars, strip clubs, and BDSM dungeons. And Maureen Corrigan reviews two quintessential New York City books. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
That was my guest, Ariana Grande, singing No One Mourns the Wicket from the musical Wicket. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I want to play another pivotal scene from the film. It's when your character, Galinda, and Elphaba first meet. And Elphaba has arrived at school, and everyone reacts.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
They're really startled by the color of her skin, which is green. The interaction the two of you have showcases your differences because Elphaba is strong and smart, and you're kind of silly and a little bit superficial. Let's listen. Oh, my gosh!
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
That was my guest, Ariana Grande, starring as Galinda in the musical film Wicked. Ariana, Galinda is kind of like the foil for Elphaba. She represents conformity and societal expectations, while Elphaba embodies this rebellious thing. You know, she's trying to be an individual. She's kind of forced to be because she is seen as such. Are there elements of both of them?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
It's so interesting that you came prepared to audition for both of them, knowing that you were there for one. But do you see elements of yourself in both characters or either of the characters?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Is it true that the two of you insisted on, because Cynthia is also an amazing vocalist as well.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
The two of you all, is it true that you insisted on singing on set?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon
Which doesn't always happen when there's a musical movie happening.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
And so you write their letters.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
You know, this makes me think about, I mean, when you arrived in Italy, you're 20 years old. You're just coming into your femininity, your sexuality, who you are as a woman, you and Raphael's relationship. You know, you had just gotten together a week prior. And you have all of these labels put on you on who you are as a sexual being.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
I thought it was really, really interesting that you talked about how you came fully into your self-awareness of your body and your sexuality in prison.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
You write in the book about your life as a child growing up in the Pacific Northwest, in the Seattle area, roaming free in the wilderness and being in the woods exploring. You're just kind of like a, it sounds like an outdoor kid. And the confines of prison, of course, is the opposite of that. What is your relationship to space now outside of prison?
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Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
And I'm also thinking about just even... being in your childhood room after four years, you know, many, many years of dealing with something and becoming a whole different person, one of the things you do in the book is you sort of break yourself up into different people.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
It's like the Amanda before you arrived in Italy, the woman that I think you call Foxy Noxy, like your doppelganger, not even you. And then the woman that you were post, once you came home, right? Was that ever a struggle with interacting with your family? Because the person that they knew when you left was a person that was different when you came home.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
You told us earlier that so much of you doing this work for yourself to understand what the meaning of your life means and to be free comes from being a mom. You have a three-year-old daughter. And have you thought about her future, her at 18 or 20, making the decision to go out and explore the world and how you will handle that? What wisdom and lessons will you share with her?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Amanda Knox, this was a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you. Amanda Knox's new memoir is Free, My Search for Meaning. Lucy Dacus is a young singer-songwriter, perhaps best known as one-third of the trio Boy Genius, along with Julian Baker and Phoebe Bridgers. Jeffrey Lewis is a middle-aged singer-songwriter who is not very well known, but is the author of at least 30 albums and EPs.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Each has a new album. Dacus is called Forever is a Feeling, and Lewis's is titled The Even More Free Willin' Jeffrey Lewis. Our rock critic Ken Tucker says that between the two of them, they demonstrate the wide musical and emotional range of confessional songwriting.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. And today my guest is Amanda Knox.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Dubbing her the angel face with the icy blue eyes. Knox was catapulted into global infamy after being convicted and later acquitted for the 2007 murder of her British roommate, Meredith Kircher. She's become a symbol, though few still to this day can agree on what she represents.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, Amanda Knox. She was convicted and ultimately exonerated for the murder of her roommate, Meredith Kircher, while on a study abroad trip in Italy. Now in a new memoir, Knox explains why getting out of prison was not the end of her saga.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Ken Tucker reviewed new music from Lucy Dacus and Jeffrey Lewis. Coming up, we'll hear from British actor Stephen Graham. He stars in the Netflix miniseries Adolescence as the father of a 13-year-old boy arrested for murder. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
To some, she was an innocent woman, unjustly imprisoned, a cautionary tale of a young student who became trapped by Italy's legal system. To others, she was a tabloid fascination, her every expression scrutinized and reinterpreted. In the years since her exoneration and return to the United States, Knox has worked to reclaim her narrative.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Our next guest, British actor Stephen Graham, stars in not one but two new shows, Hulu's A Thousand Blows and the Netflix miniseries Adolescence. He spoke with Fresh Air producer Sam Brigger. Here's Sam.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
In her first book, Waiting to be Heard, she focused on the details of her conviction. Her latest memoir, Free, My Search for Meaning, goes beyond the events of her trial and imprisonment and explores the realities of reintegrating into society and rebuilding a life. Wrongful convictions have become part of Knox's life's work.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
She sits on the board of directors of the Innocence Center, a nonprofit law firm dedicated to freeing innocent people from prison. Yet she grapples with a question that continually follows her. How dare she live when Meredith is dead? Amanda Knox, welcome to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Amanda, you wrote your first memoir, Waiting to be Heard, I think it was a year after you were released from prison. And you write that you thought it would be enough to set the record straight. Why hasn't it been enough?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Stephen Graham spoke with Fresh Air producer Sam Brigger. Graham is starring in the Netflix miniseries Adolescence and Hulu's A Thousand Blows. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Bea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.B. Nesper. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
You and Merida didn't know each other very well, did you? You all were brought together in Perugia through a study abroad program. What was your friendship like?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Amanda, you have learned, as you've been talking about over the years, through your criminal justice reform work, a lot of things about the system, but also just how common your interrogation experience is and was. You spent more than 50 hours in a room, questioned in Italian.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Those who have never experienced interrogation, I mean, will likely never quite understand it, how one can actually say things that they Absolutely. First of all, it was the worst experience of my life, worse than being convicted, was being in that interrogation room.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Also, we hear from British actor Stephen Graham. He stars in the Netflix miniseries Adolescence as the father of a 13-year-old boy arrested for murdering a girl from his school.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
And was this all in Italian? Were you all speaking? All in Italian. And how good would you describe your Italian at that time?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
If you're just joining us, my guest is Amanda Knox. She's written a new memoir titled Free, My Search for Meaning. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
And Ken Tucker reviews new albums from Lucy Dacus and Jeffrey Lewis. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Amanda, I want to talk a little bit about your time in prison because you talk quite extensively or you write quite extensively about it in great detail, including you're a celebrity in there. I mean, there were women in there. That's a word. survive in prison, but also, I mean, it sounded like you were also making yourself of use.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Were they from nearby countries or the United States or what?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Inside The Pronatalist Movement / Making Sense Of Trauma
You mentioned how these types of ideas do not work. But I was just wondering in other places and other countries, because I know that Hungary and Russia, I think even Singapore, have introduced these kinds of incentives, like tax breaks and housing benefits. I think that Hungary even offers free fertility treatments. How effective are those types of measures?
Fresh Air
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Elon Musk has been evangelizing. He's been sending these dire warnings that unless the low birth rate changes, civilization will disappear. He's framing it as the biggest threat to civilization. What do you make, Dr. Guzzo, of tech leaders kind of stepping in? I mean, some technopronatalists also argue that a bigger population means like more geniuses and innovation.
Fresh Air
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Elon Musk has a lot of kids, but he definitely is not a traditional family man. That's something that's also been discussed. And thinking about traditional family, lots of kids, the nuclear family, and just this need to have more children.
Fresh Air
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Dr. Guzzo, one of the things I'm trying to reconcile are the thoughts in the past around pronatalism. along with today's action. So for instance, during the Cold War, population control was seen as a kind of master key. So American elites actually believed population growth caused poverty and that poverty then turned into communism. How does this square with today's movement?
Fresh Air
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Lisa, I was just wondering, you mentioned how Vice President J.D. Vance has kind of echoed these worries. The Trump's White House has been asking for suggestions from married couples to boost birth rates. How empowered... Does the movement feel with perceived allies in government that all of this will turn into concrete policies? Did they talk about this at all during the conference?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Inside The Pronatalist Movement / Making Sense Of Trauma
Lisa Hagen and Dr. Karen Guzzo, thank you so much. Thanks for having us.
Fresh Air
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Dr. Karen Guzzo is a demographer, sociologist, and fertility expert. And Lisa Hagen is a reporter for NPR. In The Shrouds, a new thriller from 82-year-old Canadian writer-director David Cronenberg, Vincent Cassell plays a wealthy tech entrepreneur who has devised an unusual technology to help people still grieving from the loss of their loved ones. Our film critic Justin Chang has this review.
Fresh Air
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This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Have more babies or civilization dies. That's the rallying cry behind a once fringe ideology that has made its way into the mainstream. Pro-natalism has been in the news lately, with Trump policies underway to increase birth rates by giving away a $5,000 baby bonus for parents and a National Medal of Motherhood for moms who have six or more children.
Fresh Air
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Pronatalists warn of an apocalyptic future, that if birth rates in the U.S. keep falling, we might be headed towards economic collapse, even extinction. They're pushing ideas like genetic engineering, limiting access to contraceptives, and the Great Replacement Conspiracy Theory, which believes that there is a plot to replace white populations with non-white immigrants.
Fresh Air
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Justin Chang reviewed David Cronenberg's new film, The Shrouds. Coming up, writer and executive Daria Burke will talk about her new memoir, which explores her childhood in 1980s Detroit amid addiction and instability, and the years she spent trying to outrun the past by building a carefully curated, outwardly successful life. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
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From the outside, Daria Burke's life seemed pretty great. A big career in marketing, amazing friends, a resume filled with accolades. For two decades, she perfected the art of image, not just her own, but for major brands like Estee Lauder and Facebook. But underneath was a story that she has spent most of her life trying to outrun.
Fresh Air
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Burke grew up in Detroit in the 80s and 90s, when jobs were disappearing, crime was up, and the crack cocaine epidemic was ravaging communities and families. And her home life mirrored the city. Both of her parents struggled with addiction. She didn't grow up hearing bedtime stories or celebrating birthdays.
Fresh Air
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She has no snapshots of her childhood, just memories of her and her sister basically raising themselves. Beneath her perfect exterior, Burke says she moved through the world in shame. Until one day, a few years ago, when she discovered a photograph of the car crash that killed her grandmother when she herself was seven. Her grandmother was the one person from her childhood who made her feel safe.
Fresh Air
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And that image unearthed a well of buried grief and set her on a four-year journey into brain science, trauma research, even epigenetics, which is the study of how our genes are influenced by our environment. At one point, Daria Burke even had a 3D scan of her brain to see how trauma had shaped it. She's written about all of this in her new memoir, Of My Own Making.
Fresh Air
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Daria Burke, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you so much for having me.
Fresh Air
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Well, Daria, I want to start our conversation with the day that you discovered the details of your grandmother's car accident and death. The article you found said that your grandmother's car had stalled on the freeway and she was rammed from behind from another car and she was on her way to your house. You were around seven years old at that time.
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She was on her way to come pick you guys up for church. What did your grandma represent to you that, not just what she represented to you, being this loving person, but what she represents in the way that forced you to confront the other parts of your childhood, the stuff that you kind of had been running from all of your adult life?
Fresh Air
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From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, we're diving into the resurgence of the pro-natalism movement, the belief that having more babies will save a failing civilization. From new Trump-backed policies that promise baby bonuses and even a national medal of motherhood, pro-natalists are warning that falling U.S.
Fresh Air
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One of the more well-known faces of the movement is Elon Musk, who reportedly has at least 14 biological children with several different women, and has called the world's population decline the greatest threat to humanity. But critics argue that this movement isn't solely about increasing birth rates. It's about who gets to reproduce, under what terms, and at what cost.
Fresh Air
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Because the after times, those are the times when then your mother began to fall into addiction.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Inside The Pronatalist Movement / Making Sense Of Trauma
Is there a memory that comes to mind for you when it was strikingly clear that your mother had a problem?
Fresh Air
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Did you ever feel ostracized from the kids? You were hiding this big secret from them.
Fresh Air
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They argue that this movement ignores the skyrocketing price of child care in our country, our broken parental leave systems, and a woman's autonomy over her own body. Well, today we're joined by two people whose work explores this movement and the motivations behind it.
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Best Of: Inside The Pronatalist Movement / Making Sense Of Trauma
Were you ever with friends or with others and that song came on?
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What did the kind of poverty you lived under look like?
Fresh Air
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Dr. Karen Guzzo is a sociologist and fertility expert serving as the director of the Carolina Population Center and a professor of sociology. at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. And Lisa Hagan is a reporter for NPR who has been covering the pro-natal movement and attended last month's second annual NatalCon conference in Austin. Lisa Hagan and Karen Guzzo, welcome to Fresh Air.
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So much of your childhood, as you write, was about getting out of Detroit. Like you daydreamed about that a lot. And you write about knowing, just intrinsically knowing Detroit. that there was another life waiting for you. How did you know that as a kid without being exposed to these other ways of living?
Fresh Air
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What books were you reading? Was there a specific... I know what I was reading during that time. I'm just curious, what were you reading that took you to other worlds that really opened that up for you?
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You're down the romance novels.
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Best Of: Inside The Pronatalist Movement / Making Sense Of Trauma
Why did you want to write a book? Now everything about you is out there or these particular things about you are out there in a way that kind of leaves you exposed. These are things that for so long you didn't, you tried to hide.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Inside The Pronatalist Movement / Making Sense Of Trauma
Thanks for having me. Happy to be here. Well, I want to start with you, Lisa, and I want you to take us inside of this conference that you attended in Austin. First off, kind of set the scene for us. How big was it and how would you describe this overarching message you heard this year?
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And can you slow down there? Because we know about post-traumatic stress. We often hear like stress at the end of post-traumatic. What you're talking about is post-traumatic growth. Yes.
Fresh Air
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Daria, thank you so much for this conversation. This was such a pleasure, and thank you for this book. Wow, thank you so much. This was incredible. Daria Burke's memoir is called Of My Own Making. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Inside The Pronatalist Movement / Making Sense Of Trauma
With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Inside The Pronatalist Movement / Making Sense Of Trauma
I'm just curious, what was the breakdown of men versus women at NatalCon?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Inside The Pronatalist Movement / Making Sense Of Trauma
What kinds of policies or incentives were seriously being discussed at Natal Con?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Inside The Pronatalist Movement / Making Sense Of Trauma
birth rates could mean economic collapse or even extinction. Sociologist Dr. Karen Guzzo and NPR reporter Lisa Hagen join us to unpack the motivations behind this growing movement. Also, we'll talk with author Daria Burke. She spent several years digging into the science of how our brains and bodies carry the imprint of early experiences.
Fresh Air
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Okay, we're going to delve into some of those more granular details in the moment. But before we get to that, I want to go to you, Dr. Guzzo, to talk about the legitimacy of the problem that they're trying to solve. You're a demographer who studies when and why people have children.
Fresh Air
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Remind us of some of the reasons, particularly here in our country, that we are actually seeing a decline in birth rates.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Inside The Pronatalist Movement / Making Sense Of Trauma
Lisa, in your reporting, you featured a popular couple that has kind of been like rock stars in this movement, the Collins. They describe themselves as techno-Puritans. Who are they and how many children do they have and kind of what's their overarching messaging?
Fresh Air
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She dresses like a Puritan. She dresses like from another era, another time.
Fresh Air
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She wanted to understand the trauma she lived through growing up in 1980s Detroit with a mother who battled addiction. She suffered years of neglect before finding stability through school and rising in the corporate world. Plus, Justin Chang reviews the new Cronenberg thriller, The Shrouds. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
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What do the Collins think about IVF? Did Simone Collins actually have her children through IVF?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Inside The Pronatalist Movement / Making Sense Of Trauma
I think what's so interesting about what you all are sharing is that there is like no one main pathway to... to building a greater population. There are several different segments of this movement that have varying different ideas on how to do that. Dr. Guzzo, can you talk a little bit about the three segments of the pronatalist movement?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Inside The Pronatalist Movement / Making Sense Of Trauma
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guests are NPR reporter Lisa Hagen and demographer, sociologist, and fertility expert Dr. Karen Guzzo. We're talking about the resurgence of the pro-natalist movement. We'll hear more of our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
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On Fridays, the 1A podcast is all about helping you cut through the info fog and get to what's important in the news. Close out the week with us on our Friday News Roundup. Hear from reporters who've been embedded with the biggest news of the week. Join us every week for the Friday News Roundup. Listen to the 1A podcast from NPR and WAMU.
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Dr. Guzzo, like, do incentives work? I mean, $5,000 in this economy to have a baby?
Fresh Air
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This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. As part of Saturday Night Live's 50th anniversary celebration this year, there's a new documentary highlighting the musical guests and music comedy sketches that the show has featured over the decades. It's called Ladies and Gentlemen, 50 Years of SNL Music. It was co-directed by our guest, Grammy-winning musician and Oscar-winning documentary filmmaker,
Fresh Air
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Amir Questlove Thompson. He's the co-founder and drummer of the hip-hop band The Roots. It's the house band for The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon. Before we get into Questlove's conversation, our TV critic David Bianculli offers us his review of the film and a four-part documentary series that's also part of the 50th anniversary celebration.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 50 Years Of SNL Musical Guests / Black History Through Blues
Amir Questlove Thompson's new film, Ladies and Gentlemen, 50 Years of SNL Music, is part of SNL's 50th anniversary celebration. It's streaming on Peacock. He spoke with Terry Gross. Coming up, Harvard professor Imani Perry talks about her latest book, Black and Blues, How a Color Tells the Story of My People. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
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Best Of: 50 Years Of SNL Musical Guests / Black History Through Blues
Both the film and the series are now streaming on Peacock.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 50 Years Of SNL Musical Guests / Black History Through Blues
You know, sometimes there are ideas that make you reconsider the way you look at the world around you. My guest today, scholar Imani Perry, does that with her new book, Black and Blues, How a Color Tells the Story of My People. Perry weaves the gravitational pull of blue in black life, both literally and metaphorically, in sound and in color.
Fresh Air
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From the creation of dyed indigo cloths in West Africa that were traded for human life in the 16th century to the American art form of blues music and sartorial choices. Coretta Scott King wore blue on her wedding day. Fannie Lou Hamer wore a blue dress to testify before Congress.
Fresh Air
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These examples could be seen as mere coincidences, but in this book, Perry weaves a compelling argument for why they are not. Imani Perry is the Henry A. Morris Jr. and Elizabeth W. Morris Professor of Studies of Women, Gender, and Sexuality and of African and African American Studies at Harvard University.
Fresh Air
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From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, Amir Questlove-Thompson. He's the co-director of a new documentary about the music of Saturday Night Live over the last 50 years. It's called Ladies and Gentlemen, 50 Years of SNL Music. TV critic David Bianculli also reviews Questlove's film and a four-part documentary series about SNL.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 50 Years Of SNL Musical Guests / Black History Through Blues
She's also the author of several books and has published numerous articles on law, cultural studies, and African American studies, including Looking for Lorraine, which is a biography of of the playwright Lorraine Hansberry, and Breathe, A Letter to My Sons. Imani Perry, welcome back to Fresh Air, and thank you so much for this fascinating book. Oh, thank you for having me.
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Can I have you read a passage, page 21, last paragraph? The truth is this.
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Best Of: 50 Years Of SNL Musical Guests / Black History Through Blues
Thank you so much for that, Amani. I also want to say that this book is, I know you don't think of yourself as a poet, but it's very lyrical. It's really poetry. Thank you. How did meditating on the color blue help you come to a deeper understanding about the use of the word black to articulate what we are?
Fresh Air
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I want to talk a little bit about music. It's kind of the easiest way to get even deeper into this book and this thought. You know, I think the term blue note is so embedded in our understanding as something that relates to jazz music. If you're not a musician, maybe you just know of it, but not really.
Fresh Air
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At least I didn't know what it meant really until I was reading your book and I understood it to mean the in-between. Yeah. I was just really curious how this definition of the in-between works. also allows you to deepen your understanding of how Black people's creation of the art form of jazz itself came to be.
Fresh Air
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What did I do to be so black and blue? It was really fun to go down memory lane and listen to these old pieces, I'll say. But what did you learn about how Armstrong really turned this song, which was several decades old by the time he sang it, into really a direct commentary for the time?
Fresh Air
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You also reference Nina Simone. You talk about her first album, which was in 1957. There is this song called Little Girl Blue. I also want to play that. Let's hear a little bit.
Fresh Air
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That was Nina Simone singing Little Girl Blue. And Imani, as you write about, there was just a lot going on with this album. There's a lot of delays with the recording label. It kind of set her on the path, really her career path decisions from that point on. What did you learn about Simone and the recording of this song that made you want to explore it for the book?
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I'd like to, in our conversation on a passage of your book that I feel is so rooted in the present moment, it's Page 228, the last paragraph, it starts with an admission.
Fresh Air
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Imani Perry, as always, thank you so much for this thought-provoking conversation.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 50 Years Of SNL Musical Guests / Black History Through Blues
Imani Perry's new book is Black and Blues, How a Color Tells the Story of My People. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Sam Brigger is our managing producer. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. A special thank you to Jose Yanez and Connor Anderson from WDET for additional engineering help.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 50 Years Of SNL Musical Guests / Black History Through Blues
With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 50 Years Of SNL Musical Guests / Black History Through Blues
We'll also hear from author and scholar Imani Perry. Her new book, Black and Blues, explores the significance of blue and black life, from the indigo trade to the birth of blues music. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
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David Bianculli is professor of television studies at Rowan University in New Jersey. Both of the SNL specials are now streaming on Peacock. Ladies and gentlemen, 50 years of SNL music was co-directed by our first guest, Amir Questlove Thompson. He's the co-founder of the hip-hop group The Roots, which is the house band for The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon, who is a former SNL cast member.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 50 Years Of SNL Musical Guests / Black History Through Blues
Questlove is a busy guy these days. He's also co-produced a documentary about Sly Stone called Sly Lives, a.k.a. The Burden of Black Genius, which will start streaming on Hulu on February 13th. His 2021 documentary, Summer of Soul, about the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival, won an Oscar for Best Documentary. Terry interviewed Questlove about the Saturday Night Live documentary last week.
Fresh Air
Best Of: 50 Years Of SNL Musical Guests / Black History Through Blues
Amir Questlove Thompson speaking with Terry Gross. His new documentary, Ladies and Gentlemen, 50 Years of SNL Music, is now streaming on Peacock. We'll hear more of their conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
Terry McMillan. Yeah. Which offered, I assume that kind of offered you an entryway into what a successful Black woman's life could be like. But I want to talk about presentation because... Yes. You've got a very polished, camera-ready presence. It's like a news anchor. I think you've even said people ask you if you're on TV all the time. Yes.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
Well, I think it's really fascinating that you are in marketing for a living because you help brands make meaning of their stories. But when did you begin to learn how to do that image making for yourself? Did you begin doing that when you were very young in Detroit?
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
Daria Burke, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor. Well, Daria, I want to start our conversation with the day that you discovered the details of your grandmother's car accident and death. This was around 2017. And as you write about it, you say that it was just a regular workday evening. You were having dinner and watching TV.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
Our guest today is author Daria Burke. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley, and my guest today is author and marketing executive Daria Burke. Her new memoir, Of My Own Making, recounts her childhood in the 1980s and 90s in Detroit, where she grew up amid the crack cocaine epidemic.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
with an absent father and a mother struggling with addiction. Often left to fend for herself, Daria went on to build a successful, outwardly polished life in the corporate world, which appeared to be the ultimate comeback story. But when she came across an old photo tied to a traumatic childhood car accident, It cracked open the past she thought she had left behind.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
And that moment launched her into a four-year journey exploring the science of healing, neuroplasticity, epigenetics, and how early trauma reshapes the brain. Daria, I want to talk with you about your turn to science and research. So after you had this clarifying moment and this moment where you could mourn your grandmother's death all of the years later after it happened,
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
You then turned to science for answers, learning about different modes of therapeutic modalities and reading about neuroplasticity as a gateway to personal healing. What was it that made you go that route to actually try to understand the impacts of your childhood on your brain?
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
Thinking about inherited traits, you know, we often hear that addiction can be an inherited trait. Did you ever fear that you'd become an addict, knowing that your mother and your father were both addicts? I did. That maybe you had a gene or predisposition?
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
And then all of a sudden you decided to just Google your grandmother's name. Yes. The article you found said that your grandmother's car had stalled on the freeway and she was rammed from behind from another car and she was on her way to your house. You were around seven years old at that time. She was on her way to come pick you guys up for church.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
Tell me about your relationship with your parents. I'll start with your mother. I know after you graduated from high school, you went to a very high performing high school in Detroit, Renaissance High School, and then you went on to college at the University of Michigan. You did that virtually all on your own.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking with author Daria Burke about her new memoir of my own making. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
And today I'm talking with Daria Burke about her new memoir of my own making, which is a raw account of growing up in the 1980s and 90s in Detroit amid the crack cocaine epidemic. She writes about being raised in a home shaped by instability. Her father was absent and her mother struggled financially. with a severe drug addiction.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
The memoir traces her journey from that painful beginning through the years she spent trying to escape her past by building a carefully controlled, outwardly successful life as a marketing executive. Underneath the accomplishments and the appearances was a woman still carrying the weight of what she'd been through.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
I want to ask you a little bit about your father because you did not grow up with him, but he does serve as a presence. You write about this moment when you're an adult and you're living your life and he has a health issue and you all have a phone conversation. That was one of the first real conversations you had ever had with him.
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How Trauma Shapes Us
Daria, what was it? Why was that strong feeling in you that you did not want to face him? You didn't want to have that conversation?
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How Trauma Shapes Us
Why did you want to write a book? Because now everything about you is out there or these particular things about you are out there in a way that kind of leaves you exposed. These are things that for so long you didn't, you tried to hide.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
Why do you think that was? Had she been pushed past the exit in the accident?
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
And can you slow down there? Because we know about post-traumatic stress. We often hear like stress at the end of post-traumatic. What you're talking about is post-traumatic growth. Yes.
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How Trauma Shapes Us
Daria, thank you so much for this conversation. This was such a pleasure, and thank you for this book.
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How Trauma Shapes Us
Daria Burke's memoir is of my own making. Coming up, critic-at-large John Powers reviews The Golden Hour, a book about how the movies and America have changed since the 1950s. This is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air. Writer Matthew Spector grew up the son of a famous Hollywood agent.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
In his new book, The Golden Hour, a story of family and power in Hollywood, he uses his parents' lives, and his own, to explore how the movies and America have changed since the 1950s. Our critic-at-large, John Powers, found that the book reveals something fresh about Hollywood.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. From the outside, my guest today, Daria Burke's life. It seems pretty great. A big career in marketing, amazing friends, a resume filled with accolades. For two decades, she perfected the art of image, not just her own, but brands like Estee Lauder and Facebook. But underneath was a story she has spent most of her life trying to outrun.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
What did your grandma represent to you that, not just what she represented to you, being this loving person, but what she represents in the way that forced you to confront the other parts of your childhood, the stuff that you kind of had been running from all of your adult life?
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How Trauma Shapes Us
John Powers reviewed The Golden Hour by Matthew Spector. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, David Graham explains the political playbook guiding many of Donald Trump's policies, Project 2025. Graham says one goal is restoring the family as the centerpiece of American life, an effort that could be undermined by the administration's attacks on federal programs. Graham's new book is The Project.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. ¦ Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
Because the after times, those are the times when then your mother began to fall into addiction.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
Is there a memory that comes to mind for you when it was strikingly clear that your mother had a problem?
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How Trauma Shapes Us
Did you ever feel ostracized from the kids? You were hiding this big secret from them. You were trying to avoid them by not letting them come visit your house and You didn't have a phone many times, so you didn't give out your number. But for those who did know, was there ever a moment where people, you knew people knew and maybe you felt ostracized?
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
Burke grew up in Detroit in the 80s and 90s when jobs were disappearing, crime was up, and the crack cocaine epidemic was ravaging communities and families. And her home life mirrored the city. Both of her parents struggled with addiction. She didn't grow up hearing bedtime stories or celebrating birthdays.
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How Trauma Shapes Us
She has no snapshots of her childhood, just memories of her and her sister basically raising themselves. Beneath her perfect exterior, Burke says she moved through the world in shame. Until one day, a few years ago, when she discovered a photograph of the car crash that killed her grandmother when she herself was seven. Her grandmother was the one person from her childhood who made her feel safe.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
You kind of just nicely like glided over that, that you went into a store and stole food. This is a very vivid story. You got on your bike with a bag and you went in there and went full on grocery shopping.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
Did you ever feel in denial about your parents' struggles? Your father wasn't around, but you knew he was. He would come by sporadically. You later found out that he also had an addiction problem. But for your mother, was there ever moments where you were in denial for what you were seeing?
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How Trauma Shapes Us
So much of your childhood, as you write, was about getting out of Detroit. Like you daydreamed about that a lot. And you write about knowing, just intrinsically knowing that there was another life waiting for you. How did you know that as a kid without being exposed to these other ways of living?
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
And that image unearthed a well of buried grief and set her on a four-year journey into brain science, trauma research, even epigenetics, which is the study of how our genes are influenced by our environment. At one point, Daria Burke even had a 3D scan of her brain to see how trauma had shaped it. She's written about all of this in her new memoir, Of My Own Making.
Fresh Air
How Trauma Shapes Us
What books were you reading? Was there a specific—I know what I was reading during that time. I'm just curious. What were you reading that took you to other worlds that really opened that up for you?
Fresh Air
A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. My guest today, legal scholar Elie Mistal, says if it were up to him, every law passed before 1965 would be deemed unconstitutional. From his view, before the Voting Rights Act, the U.S. was basically an apartheid state.
Fresh Air
A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
One of the things your book does in talking about these bad laws is kind of give the reader, like open up the reader's mind to a vision of what would our society look like if these laws were no longer in existence or we had a chance to vote for them, for a new set of laws. How would overhauling voter registration, from your view, actually change society?
Fresh Air
A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
Okay, let's take a break. Our guest today is legal scholar and author Ellie Mistal. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
OK, I was really fascinated by your chapter on airline deregulation. I love the title, Who Gave Away the Skies to the Airlines? And this is an important chapter because you have this theory that Democrats embracing neoliberalism actually kickstarted with President Carter signing the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 into law. Explain and say more about that.
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A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
I think all of us do by now. I mean, very few people love it still. In part because of what has happened over the decades. Yes, continue.
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A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
Yeah, he was a Yale law professor, right? Robert Bork, yes. And he invented this case for airline deregulation.
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A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
Right. So, OK, I think you're not alone in feeling, as I said, irrationally angry at the state of airline travel because of this. But to make this make sense for anyone under 40, can you first describe what airline travel looked like before deregulation?
Fresh Air
A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
But that price fixing, like the fixing of the price, though, I mean, it was also very expensive to fly, right?
Fresh Air
A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
You are saying that these laws aren't basically imperfect, like the other types of laws that you mentioned. you're arguing that their very function is to harm.
Fresh Air
A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
You know, today, I think one of many things with airline travel that people get upset about Well, first off, it does seem like prices are all over the map. It's all based on the market. But what people really get upset about is how these incredibly profitable airlines continually get bailed out by taxpayers. What could travel actually look like if airlines were regulated today?
Fresh Air
A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
Okay, Ellie, let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest today is legal scholar and author Ellie Mistal. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. We don't have time, Ellie, to go through all of the laws that you've highlighted in your book, but I do want to quickly go through a few more of your arguments.
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A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
We have, as you state, the least representative democracy among all wealthy nations in the world. But break this down because I think many people believe it's the exact opposite. We send representatives that in theory are supposed to represent us in Washington. Why is this system flawed?
Fresh Air
A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
You write that. I mean, it's really nearly impossible to overhaul the Senate short of abolishing the Constitution. But overhauling the House is another matter. What is your idea?
Fresh Air
A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
Estal's new book, Bad Law, Ten Popular Laws That Are Ruining America, mixes humor with deep analysis to argue that our laws on immigration, religious freedom, abortion, and voting rights are actually making life worse than better. They've caused, he argues, massive social and political harm and don't reflect the will of most Americans.
Fresh Air
A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
What happened in the 1920s that changed this?
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A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
OK, so this was done until the 1920s. But what you're talking about here would change the Electoral College, too.
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A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
I want to get to something I said when I introduced you, that you feel like before 1965, really all laws before 1965 should be abolished by and large. The United States legal system relies so heavily, though, on judicial precedent. So almost everything goes back to what happened before it.
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A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
I promise you that right now. Thank you very much.
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A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
So your feelings that everything before 1965 is kind of in direct opposition to what America is most proud of. Can you explain that argument a little bit more?
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A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
Right. I mean, there are some that were actually really good that moved forward progress. The 1964 Civil Rights Act, I think, was pretty good.
Fresh Air
A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
Ellie Mistal is a legal analyst and justice correspondent for The Nation and the legal editor of the More Perfect podcast on the Supreme Court for Radiolab. He's also an Alfred Knobler Fellow at Type Media Center and the author of Allow Me to Retort, A Black Guy's Guide to the Constitution. And Ellie Mistal, as you always seem to do, you've made this subject both funny and informational.
Fresh Air
A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
Let's talk a little bit about some of the laws that you focus on in the book. We're not going to be able to get to all of them, but all of them in some capacity are part of the current news cycle. It's really interesting. And one big one is our immigration laws. I want to talk about this in regards to a case that we are following right now.
Fresh Air
A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
Palestinian activist and Columbia University graduate Mahmoud Khalil is an example of some of the problems you say. or at the core of our immigration laws, to remind people Khalil, who is a green card holder, was detained by ICE on March 8th, accused of supporting Hamas and organizing protests on Columbia University's campus.
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A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
The government has invoked elements of the 1921 Immigration and Nationality Act. to justify his detention. And it's a law that you write about in your book. And we'll get deeper into your thesis about why you feel that this particular law should be abolished. But can you first explain the law as the government is interpreting it to detain Khalil?
Fresh Air
A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
Well, at the heart of the case is whether Khalil has First Amendment rights as a permanent resident.
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A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
You know, this administration has stoked this fear that more immigrants in this country means less resources, a higher chance they'll steal our jobs or commit crimes. And you're saying that characterization has no basis and is racist. And we know that because the people who made illegal reentry a felony actually said so.
Fresh Air
A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
So we'll be laughing today to keep from crying. Thank you so much for this book and welcome to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
Okay, so in each chapter of the book, you give an analysis of a law that you say is ruining America. There are 10 of them. How did you go about choosing which laws to focus on?
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A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
Ellie, you actually start off the book asking the question, why isn't everyone registered to vote? Every single voter registration law you argue is anti-democratic. And I want you to explain what you mean.
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A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
Let's go to the period after the Civil War when registration laws actually took effect. Can you just remind us of that time period?
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A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
I thought it was so interesting in the book how you talk about, like, some states make the voting process more difficult than others. I didn't really realize that New York, of the 50 states, like, it has... We're easily one of the worst. Give us just, like, a few examples of why that is. It's really an interesting thing.
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A Legal Scholar On 10 Laws 'Ruining America'
And actually, in opposition to some others, like, I think you mentioned North Dakota is the only state that does not have voter registration rules. But yes, what makes New York so difficult?
Fresh Air
Jon Batiste, Holiday Edition / Questlove Christmas
Hey, it's Tanya Mosley. It's almost the end of the year, and this is the season when we here at NPR come to you as a nonprofit news organization and ask for your support. Maybe you're already an NPR Plus supporter, and if so, thank you so much.
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Jon Batiste, Holiday Edition / Questlove Christmas
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Jon Batiste, Holiday Edition / Questlove Christmas
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Jon Batiste, Holiday Edition / Questlove Christmas
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Jon Batiste, Holiday Edition / Questlove Christmas
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Jon Batiste, Holiday Edition / Questlove Christmas
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Fresh Air
MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
That was Dr. King speaking to NBC in 1967. He's also referring to the Vietnam War when he mentions the Asian War. And I mean, you know, they say, Eddie, of course, that history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes and that progress is not linear. These are all things that we talk about often.
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MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
But what is notable to me is that optimism lost, much like both you and Tressie are talking about right now.
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MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
You know, Dr. Martin Luther King's daughter, Bernice King, said that she's glad Inauguration Day happens to fall on MLK Day because it means that her dad is still speaking to us. And I want to ask both of you what you're reflecting on as we watch President-elect Donald Trump become the 47th president of the United States. I'll start with you, Tressie.
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MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
I want to ask both of you, have either of you seen the new film Nickel Boys, based on the novel by Colson Whitehead? Have not seen the film, enjoyed the book.
Fresh Air
MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
Well, I really couldn't help but notice this subtle but constant imagery of MLK that is interwoven throughout the film. He's like the thread of hope throughout the entire film. And that just got me thinking, we're basically 60 years since he was assassinated. We're still looking to him for a path forward. Do either of you ever think about that? Mm-hmm.
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MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
Is that to the detriment of us, though? You know, I know that you probably have a lot of elders, at least I do, who talk about how there is no leader. There is no person, no guiding force in this moment.
Fresh Air
MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guests are sociologist and writer Tressie McMillan Cottom and scholar and writer Eddie Glaude. We are reflecting on Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. 's legacy on this holiday, which is also Inauguration Day. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
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MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
You know, I want to talk a little bit about some of what Dr. King was working on in his last days that come back to this economic angst that we were talking about. So as you all both know, he was working on the Poor People's Campaign, which was focused on economic justice for everyone.
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MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
And I was thinking about this in the context of today because King desired to address what he called the triple evils, which was racism and militarism and and poverty. Eddie, how are you thinking about those three in the context of today?
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MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
Tressie, you say that we've retrenched into nationalist economics. I thought that was just like an interesting term.
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MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
Could either of you all see something like a poor people's campaign? I mean, I know it fell short of its immediate goals. King was assassinated. I mean, but there are things that came out of that that we still benefit from today. Expansion of social welfare programs. more low-income housing, and at a time where we need that now more than ever?
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MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
Like, what would be a unifying force to help us all understand the needs for things like this? Because we see clearly the data shows us, but there is a splinter in our ideas of how to make those things happen and the government's role in it.
Fresh Air
MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guests are sociologist and writer Tressie McMillan Cottom and scholar and writer Eddie Glaude. We are reflecting on Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. 's legacy on this holiday, which is also Inauguration Day. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
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MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
Tressie, you actually chose a clip from Dr. King's 1966 speech at Wesleyan University that speaks to the morality issue. Let's listen.
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MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
That was Dr. King at Wesleyan University in 1966. You chuckle, Eddie.
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MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
Eddie, what do you have to say to that? I'm really struck by the contradicting but complementary ideas and being able to merge those two. I think that's really going to be a big basis of our conversation. Your thoughts, Eddie?
Fresh Air
MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
You know, I initially wanted to end our conversation with an excerpt from Dr. King's I Have a Dream speech, but I think a speech you selected, Eddie, might be more fitting. This is King in March of 1968, one month before he was assassinated. Let's listen.
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MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
Tressie McMillan Cottom and Eddie Glaude, thank you so much for this conversation.
Fresh Air
MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
Tressie McMillan Cottom is a professor at the Center for Information Technology and Public Life at UNC Chapel Hill and a New York Times columnist. Eddie Glaude is the James S. McDonald Distinguished University Professor of African American Studies at Princeton University. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, Jesse Eisenberg on writing, directing, and starring in the film A Real Pain.
Fresh Air
MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
He and Kieran Culkin play cousins on a Jewish heritage tour in Poland. We'll talk about how the story relates to Eisenberg's life. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorrock. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Fresh Air
MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
You know, one of the things that I've been thinking about in the context of this moment is how we've been struggling with MLK's legacy, really. I'd actually say for all of my lifetime, we seem to have like this collective amnesia about MLK. how vicious and brutal that time period before his assassination was and how he was vilified.
Fresh Air
MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
And Tressie, you've been thinking about how bluntly President Trump and the GOP have over the years kind of co-opted King the Martyr when you say that they would have hated King the Organizer. Can you say more about that?
Fresh Air
MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And in a rare convergence of history and politics, today is both Martin Luther King Jr. Day and Inauguration Day. It's only the second time this has happened since MLK Day became a federal holiday.
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MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
This juxtaposition of honoring a civil rights icon while swearing in a controversial president creates a stark symbolic contrast, a collision of narratives that raises profound questions about the state of Dr. King's dream in modern America.
Fresh Air
MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
I really want to sit with the fact that you talk about the depths of despair that MLK's in during 66, 67, and 68, before he was assassinated. There's actually an interview that he did with Mike Wallace for CBS News in 66, and I want to play an excerpt from that. And the two of them are talking about King's belief in nonviolent resistance. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
That was Dr. King talking with Mike Wallace in 1966. And of course, we were calling ourselves Negro back then. I also want to make that note. You know, Peniel Joseph has done some excellent writing about MLK's belief in nonviolent action. up against Malcolm X's philosophy of by any means necessary. He actually describes King and Malcolm X's revolutionary sides of the same coin.
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MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
Joining me to talk about King's legacy and what it means to have this day shared with Donald Trump is sociologist and New York Times opinion columnist Tressie McMillan Cottom. She's a professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and author of Thick and other essays.
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MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
And how the Black Lives Matter movement in 2020 actually amplified that and brought that idea into full view. Now we are several years away from 2020, what folks were calling a racial reckoning. And Tressie, you told me that you get the sense that a big issue for many Black people in despair at this moment is that they cannot process the uneven successes of social movements like BLM.
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MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
Also joining me is Princeton African-American Studies professor and religion scholar Eddie Glott Jr., who has authored several books, most recently We Are the Leaders We Have Been Waiting For. Both are known for their insightful analysis of race, religion, and politics in the United States. Tressie McMillan Cottom and Eddie Glaude, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to be here.
Fresh Air
MLK, The Organizer & Radical Thinker
I just can't help but keep going back to that time period, 67. 68, and the optimism of after the I Have a Dream speech in 63. And I actually want to play another clip. This one is from a 1967 interview with Sander Vanacore, three and a half years after that I Have a Dream speech. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Hi, it's Tanya Mosley. Before we get back to the show, the end of year is coming up and our Fresh Air team is looking back at all the fantastic interviews and reviews we've been able to bring you in 2024 because of your support. We had so many delightful, introspective, sometimes emotional, sometimes funny, always deeply human conversations with St.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
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Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
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Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
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Fresh Air
Richard Kind Is Glad He's Not That Famous
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. Terry has today's interview.
Fresh Air
Richard Kind Is Glad He's Not That Famous
Richard Kind speaking with Terry Gross. Kind is the announcer and sidekick on the series Everybody's Live with John Mulaney. It's live on Netflix Wednesday nights and then streams. After we take a short break, rock critic Ken Tucker will share his take on Kendrick Lamar's track Luther and two versions of the song it samples. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Richard Kind Is Glad He's Not That Famous
Kendrick Lamar's single Luther, a duet with SZA from his latest album, GNX, has spent several weeks at the top of the Billboard Hot 100 chart. The track features a sample of Luther Vandross' beloved 1982 rendition of If This World Were Mine, a song originally written by Marvin Gaye and first recorded by Gaye and Tammy Terrell in 1967.
Fresh Air
Richard Kind Is Glad He's Not That Famous
Rock critic Ken Tucker has been revisiting all three versions and shares his thoughts on why this song continues to resonate across generations.
Fresh Air
Richard Kind Is Glad He's Not That Famous
Ken Tucker is Fresh Air's rock critic. He reviewed Kendrick Lamar's song Luther from his latest album, GNX, and two versions of the song it samples. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, Melinda French Gates talks with me about her new book, The Next Day, which reflects on motherhood, grief, philanthropy, and life after divorce.
Fresh Air
Richard Kind Is Glad He's Not That Famous
Gates is the former co-chair of the Gates Foundation and founder of Pivotal Ventures, which is focused on advancing women and families. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
That's Roy Wood Jr. in his latest comedy special, Lonely Flowers, on Hulu. It's Wood's take on how isolation has sent society spiraling into a culture of guns, protests, rude employees, self-checkout lanes, sex parties. And he also talks about why some of us would rather be alone than connected. Wood is known for his razor-sharp wit.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
Our guest today is comedian and talk show host Roy Wood Jr. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
Roy, your CNN News quiz show, Have I Got News For You, was picked up for a second season. Congrats. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Describe the show for folks who haven't seen it.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
He spent years on the stand-up comedy circuit, dissecting pop culture and current events, and for nearly eight years, he was a correspondent for The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Wood currently hosts the CNN News Quiz show, Have I Got News For You?, which was adapted from a long-running British series under the same name. Roy Wood Jr., thank you for being here, and welcome back to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
But there was also a lot of hand-wringing in the United States about this show when it was first announced because with us being so polarized, would Americans be able to make fun of themselves in a political climate? What was that first season like? How do you feel now that you've ended that, you're stepping into second season and you're taking on a new administration role?
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
You're taking on a lot of newness in the news.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
When you announced that you were leaving The Daily Show in 2023, I mean, people were shocked. They couldn't believe that you'd leave what looked like this cushy dream job. And you were pretty direct on why. But now that you've landed and you've created many things for yourself since then, I'm wondering if that answer is still the same. Like, how are you reflecting on your decision to leave?
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
You know, at the end of that clip I just played, you heard the beep. That was the N-word. It was part of the punchline that you use in the joke, and it almost is like an exclamation point. And I know that you have weighed whether you use it. I think you talked about in another special how your uncle was like trying to not use it himself. Yeah, trying to quit it.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
I mean, you said complacency is as dangerous as failure because you could look up one day and you're in a worse place. You could stay at a job and that job could still fire you.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is comedian Roy Wood Jr., host of the CNN quiz show, Have I Got News For You? And he also has a new stand-up special about loneliness called Lonely Flowers. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
At what point in your life did you discover you were funny?
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
Right, right. He's on the N-word patch. How do you decide when to use it in your comedies?
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
What was your ROTC coach like or teacher, instructor saying to you?
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
But you went to college for broadcast journalism. You got into some trouble, though, with the law that changed your trajectory. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
She didn't know. She didn't know about your arrest?
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
Yeah. Why were you doing that? Why was the credit card ring the way to make money? Because I assume it was about making money.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
And you had all types of jobs, too, didn't you?
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
If you're just joining us, my guest is comedian Roy Wood Jr., host of the quiz show Have I Got News For You on CNN. And he also has a new stand-up special about loneliness called Lonely Flowers on Hulu. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
Your dad, you mentioned Roy Wood Sr., he did not pay taxes, as you said, but he was a pioneering radio reporter in Birmingham. I mean, he covered the civil rights movement. He co-founded the first black radio network in
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
Yeah. Did you get to be around his work much when you were growing up?
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
He also was like, I mean, he was the news guy. You describe him as the voice that we would hear on the car radio in the morning, giving the news on the way to school, on the way to work. It just got me thinking about how much radio, that kind of media, it leaves an imprint on us. But it's also ephemeral, you know? Do you have any tapes or recordings of his work still?
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
He wasn't jokey. He was not silly, but he did help create one of black America's great contributions. Soul Train.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
You mentioned your son, and I'm just wondering, as your son gets older, are there any parts of fatherhood that you're like, now I understand, looking back at your dad?
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
I know that you're writing a book about fatherhood. You've been reflecting a lot on your relationship with your dad. I mean, I can relate to this journey that you're on trying to understand him, to understand yourself and your role as a parent and what you want to do and be and show up for your son. Has that process brought about any compassion? for him.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
You know, you talk about how he was a good dad, but a bad husband. So you saw a lot of stuff.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
I did notice, though. I mean, I noticed when you were on Conan O'Brien, his podcast, you used it and he didn't laugh, you know, because he kind of it also can make people uncomfortable. Right. It can make people they don't know if they can laugh at it.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
Roy Wood Jr., this was such a pleasure. I could talk to you forever, but thank you so much for this conversation.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
Roy Wood Jr. 's new comedy special on Hulu is called Lonely Flowers. His CNN comedy panel news quiz show, Have I Got News For You?, starts its second season next month. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, when Donald Trump talks about taking over Greenland, perhaps with military force, is he serious?
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
We'll talk about that and the challenges Trump will face in Ukraine, Iran, and China with David Sanger, veteran national security correspondent with the New York Times. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Brinker, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.B. Nesper. And Roberta Shorrock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
I want to know how you got to that point, because I just noticed within a bit you do this thing where you reference something that the masses will get. And in that same bit, there are references that only Black people will get. I mean, an example of this was last season on your CNN quiz show. It was the one where you had Kara Swisher on and you made a reference to the movie Coming to America.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
Now, I mean, that is a popular movie, but it's a it's a black cult classic. And there was this line you said, like as the punchline, whatever you like, which is like a part of this is part of the movie that like. I wondered if everybody on the panel knew what you were talking about, which made it even funnier because it's almost like a nod you're giving to those who know. Is that intentional?
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
Because you're able to bring all parts of yourself to make everybody laugh.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
Do you take a lot of time to find that bonus joke inside of the joke? Like those types of examples to like put into your sets?
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And my guest today, comedian Roy Wood Jr., takes the serious, sometimes absurd stuff we deal with in everyday life and makes us laugh about it. Even news events that on the face of it are kind of scary, like white men in America gravitating to militia groups.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
Okay, I want to play another clip from Lonely Flowers. In this clip, you're talking about grocery shopping and how it seems like most store clerks have been replaced by self-checkout. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
That was my guest today, comedian Roy Wood Jr. in his new comedy special on Hulu called Lonely Flowers. Roy, I love that joke because, I mean, of course, you went to the most extreme example. But all of us, we do get a little dopamine when we have nice interactions like that. And we are getting less and less of them, you know?
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
You know, writer Wesley Laurie said about you a few years ago, he wrote that you occupy this space between 1990s Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle in the early 2000s. Do you agree with that?
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
And bringing up Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle, I also thought about is like, what does it mean for you to keep yourself grounded so that your humor feels connected to the larger sentiment? You know, as you become more and more successful, is that something that you think about?
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
How much time do you take to study your peers, other comedians?
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
I've been thinking a lot about the journalism industry with the decline and trust and the fractured attention spans. And as you said earlier, you feel like comedy is a form of journalism.
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
But through your role on The Daily Show as a correspondent in this new news quiz show, I want to know from you, like, that hasn't always been the case where, you know, you actually studied journalism and then you decided to be a comedian. But when did it become clear to you that, wait a minute, this thing that I'm doing as a comedian is actually a form of journalism?
Fresh Air
Roy Wood Jr. Thinks Of Comedy As Journalism
Did you have a moment when you were on the show where that became clear to you?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Welcome to Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. My guest today is Danny McBride. His latest show, The Righteous Gemstones, just finished its fourth and final season. It's a dark comedy about a rich Southern family of televangelists who talk about salvation on TV, but behind the scenes, it is all dysfunction, greed, scandal, and sometimes even crime.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
One of the through lines, in addition to like trying to inherit an empire, the thing that you do in The Righteous Gemstones is all of the children absolutely adore and worship the memory of their mama. And that love feels so authentic. The mother wound they obviously have by her loss, it almost feels like it's what makes them good and redeemable.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Have any church families or people just in general reached out to you and said, this is us?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Our guest today is Danny McBride, creator and star of The Righteous Gemstones. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
What percentage of the show is kind of ad-libbed?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Can you recall a scene?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Danny McBride has built a career, really an empire, as a writer, actor, and producer with a sharp sense for the ridiculous side of masculinity and ambition. He creates men who are loud, delusional, and hilarious, in part because they are totally unlikable.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Let's listen to that scene, which was in the second season.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
That was a scene from season two of The Righteous Gemstones. And my guest today is creator and star of the show, Danny McBride. Did you grow up with a lot of cursing around you?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Well, it definitely is infused in your shows. How do you navigate the children on set and stuff when there's all that cursing? Which I should say, it's gratuitous, but it also really works. I just always have to watch your shows when my kids are out of the room, you know?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Think Kenny Powers, the trash-talking, washed-up baseball player in Eastbound and Down, or Neil Gamby, the petty, power-hungry vice principal in Vice Principals. His films include This is the End, Tropic Thunder, and Pineapple Express.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Right, right, right. Have your kids seen any of your work yet?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Okay, something I really wanted to know. Your character, Jesse, in the Gemstones, and if we go way back to Kenny in Eastbound and Down, they both have, like, swagger. You know, like, the way that you walk. You kind of have this, like, gangster lean. And since you, like, brought up two live crew, I'm bringing this up. Is that how you move or is that part of the characters you play? Yeah.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Now that I'm thinking about it, even that clip I play where you're like, bye, Felicia, as you're walking away, that is the George Jefferson walk, 100%.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Most of The Righteous Gemstones was filmed in and around Charleston, South Carolina, where McBride has carved out his own version of Hollywood South with his longtime collaborators, David Gordon Green and Jody Hill, running their production company, Rough House Pictures. And Danny McBride, welcome back to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
There's something in all of your characters. You know, you present as a really nice guy, but there's something in all of your characters. They're all kind of terrible. And I'm just wondering what interests you about these types of people, the Kinnies of the world, the, you know, Jessies of the world, you know?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Our guest today is Danny McBride, creator and star of The Righteous Gemstones. We'll be right back after a short break. This is Fresh Air. David Green and Jody Hill, you guys have been longtime partners for a really long time. When did you guys know that you all had something special?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
And film schools at that point – Is that what you mean when you say it was not in the cards for you? Do you mean because of the cost or – Yeah, there was just no way that – yeah.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Remind us of how this idea kind of came about. I read that you initially wanted to write something about the Memphis Mafia right around the time that Elvis died.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Did the system get it? Like, get that Southern thing that you have that threads throughout these characters? Did you ever find where you were up against a wall?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
What kind of stuff? Yeah.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
I want to play a clip from Eastbound and Down. This is from the pilot episode. To remind people, the show is about this once famous Major League Baseball pitcher named Kenny Powers, who basically falls from grace because of his arrogance and bad behavior. And after flaming out of the MLB, he returns in disgrace to North Carolina, to his hometown, where he takes on a job as a substitute P.E.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
teacher at his old middle school. And in the scene I'm about to play, Kenny is eating a meal with his brother, Dustin Powers, played by John Hawks, and his wife, Casey Powers, played by Jennifer Irwin, and their children. Let's listen.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
That was my guest, Danny McBride, in his 2009 show, Eastbound and Down. The laughs come, Danny, from being inappropriate. I mean, your character just continually says politically incorrect stuff. You also like thread this very fine needle of like race and racism in a way that like we can laugh at it, you know. Yeah. There's something there that also, though, can withstand the test of time.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
You know how some humor just doesn't hold up because it's now considered offensive? Like, is that something you think about when you're writing?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Danny McBride, the creator and co-star of the HBO comedy The Righteous Gemstones. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. You know, I read that, is it true that Kanye West approached you and asked you to play him in a biopic? Yes.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Did he talk about what he sees in the characters you play and how you like really draw out these themes that really spoke to him?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
That had to be flattering though, even if it was kind of crazy, I guess.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
That's love there, right? When the kids are like, watch me, you know, that means that you're cool. I read that your daughter actually took her very first steps on the Gemstones church set a few years ago. What was the last day of shooting like?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Did you have a moment alone where you're like, wow, I just built this thing and now it's done?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Wow. Also that visual because the Sears before you was kind of like that. You inhabited a space that was kind of destitute and brought it to life, you know?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Well, Danny McBride, I just want to thank you for all the joy that you brought me and so many others with The Righteous Gemstones. And thank you for this conversation.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Danny McBride is the creator and co-star of The Righteous Gemstones. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, comedian and actor Rami Youssef on writing comedy about being the son of Egyptian immigrants and trying to figure out what it means for him to be Muslim, living in contemporary America, and working in show business. His new animated comedy series is set just before and after 9-11.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
He won a Golden Globe for his role in his earlier series, Rami. I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. Teresa Madden is our senior producer today.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shurock directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
You lived in Los Angeles for like 20 years or something, right?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
I'm so fascinated by maybe the differences in the way you work in the South versus the shooting something in LA and Hollywood, aside from the food. I'm sure the food is a big part of it, right?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
We've watched throughout the show's run the most ridiculous antics, a mass baptism and a wave pool going wrong, a full frontal parking lot scene that's a fight, and the gospel banger Misbehavin'.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Are there parts of the show that maybe might not have existed had you not lived there in South Carolina and shot it there?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
You mentioned that your family was religious. What did that look like?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
At the center of the Gemstone family is Eli Gemstone, played by John Goodman, and his three deeply flawed adult children who are constantly caught up in rivalries and schemes to keep their religious empire intact.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Okay, so I heard that you do deep research. So when you aren't shooting, you're researching for the show. So what's it been like being deep in reading the Bible and watching sermons and things? Has that shaped or changed your thoughts about religion? Yeah.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
When you were helping your mom with her puppet shows, were you working on ideas too? I'm thinking about you as a young storyteller.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
In the scene I'm about to play, the three siblings, played by McBride, Edie Patterson, and Adam Devine, are all trying to convince their dad, Eli, who is retired as the head preacher, to come back to the church for a fundraising event to honor their late mom. Goodman's character, Eli, who speaks first in this clip, has left town on a boat to escape the church and the family.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
You know, one of the things about the series I find remarkable is like it skews this world of big-time preachers and televangelists, but it never – feels like it's mocking the sincerity of their faith. And I'm just wondering, how did you find the balance between, I guess I would say, satire and respect?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Did you ever go too far in your writing and then think, okay, I got to pull this back a little bit?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
John Goodman, of course, is a legend. And I think I've heard you say that it was a lark that you got him on the show. What's the story?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Where did you get the name from? I understand Righteous, but Gemstones?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
You say it out loud to yourself?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
I got to play a clip to give people kind of a grounding of this. The thing about the Gemstone kids is that... I don't think anybody ever really talks the way they do, and yet they kind of feel really believable.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
So this clip I'm about to play is from season two, and it's the three siblings, you, your sister, played by Edie Patterson, and your brother, played by Adam Devine, and you all are standing by. this statue of your late mother. And you've got this announcement to make that soon you will be the head of the church. And of course, the three of you start fighting. Your character speaks first.
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
That was a scene from season two of The Righteous Gemstones. And my guest today is creator and star of the show, Danny McBride. Okay, first off, Danny, take me inside your brain. What do you know about Bye, Felicia?
Fresh Air
'Righteous Gemstones' Creator Danny McBride's Love Letter To The South
Yeah. I was wondering because, you know, this show came out around the same time as HBO's Succession. And it's like they're two sides of the same coin in a way in the fact that there are these dysfunctional siblings who are fighting over who will inherit the empire. And they're like really, really stunted. None of them are equipped to do that. Do you see the similarities there?
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
You know, to a lesser extent, this is reminding me of daylight saving time and the difference of the changes to our bodies when it happens. What is the impact of daylight saving time? We've been seeing more research about it and we know because we can feel it. You know, so many of us feel the differences when we have to move our clocks backward or forward.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
You were without any emitted light, right? That even means your cell phones and your computer. None of those things were available to you to see light and also to see the time.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
Our guest today is author and science journalist Lynn Peoples. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Moseley, and this is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
Can you explain more of how chronotypes, what they are and how they work in conjunction with circadian rhythms?
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
Right. You talked to several people. I mean, there are actually seven chronotypes, right? There are several. Right.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
I'm thinking about how it evolves with age. Teenagers need more sleep. They typically sleep later in the day. But then, you know, I have seen senior citizens who then it seems like their clock is completely turned upside down with age.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
The time we eat seems to be so important. I mean, I think we've all heard that eating late at night is bad, but something that shocked me in your book is that scientists are finding that saving your heaviest meal for the evening, like dinner time, is actually really bad for your circadian rhythms. Yeah.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
There's so much research that shows working overnight can lessen your life expectancy. And it seems to impact women more than men. Why is that?
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
Can we hack our bodies in some way? I'm just thinking about those fake sunlight lamps. I think they're called sad lights. Many people who work overnight use them to mimic the sun. If they're able to mimic the sun during their night hours and then have blackout lights during the day and sleep all day, I mean, does that work? What has the science found?
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
What is it that you wanted to understand about your body's rhythm by undergoing this experiment?
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
Are our bodies resilient, meaning that if you've worked for years and years on a night shift and then you've done all of this damage, your circadian rhythm is out of whack, and then now you're back with the living, can you get that time back on the damage that you've done to your body?
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
Our guest today is author and science journalist Lynn Peoples. We'll be right back after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. If you need an alarm clock to wake up each morning, which most of us do, you are likely suffering from social jet lag. That's a mismatch between your biological clock and your daily schedule. And according to a new book by science journalist Lynn Peoples, drinking coffee or sleeping in on the weekends won't help you get back on track.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
You write about how hormones impact so much of our circadian rhythms. So what do we see in men versus women?
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
I mean, any woman who has gone through menopause knows that for so many, there's this bewitching hour when sleep eludes. I think I've been reading research about how 3 to 5 a.m. is like a really important time for REM sleep, but it's also where it's the biggest disruption for menopausal women in their sleep cycle.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
Is that something that humans, just women, have to live with, or is there a way through our understanding of our circadian rhythms that we can get that REM sleep that we need during that time period in our lives?
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
Lynn, you write about scientists at the University of Pittsburgh who found many of the rhythms that are dominant in most humans were missing or altered in the brains of patients with schizophrenia. And that just made me wonder. It's so fascinating, that research. Is there a correlation between some mental health disorders and the differences in rhythms?
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
What is the connection between circadian rhythms and things like cancer and Alzheimer's?
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
Lynn Peebles, this was such a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Lynn Peebles' new book is The Inner Clock, Living in Sync with Our Circadian Rhythms. Coming up, TV critic David Bianculli reviews two new comedy series, one about a woman whose ex-boyfriends begin dying off, and another about a military colonel who's forced to take command from his estranged daughter.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
Our TV critic, David Bianculli, takes a look at two new comedy series. The first one is called Laid, based on a series from Australia, now streaming on Peacock. The other, Going Dutch, is a comedy starring Dennis Leary on Fox.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
I want to know a little bit more about how you felt over the days when you were down there because there wasn't just a lack of awareness of the time and no sunlight. Some of the stuff in your body started to go haywire, like your ability to regulate your temperature.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, actor Adrian Brody joins us to talk about his role in the three-and-a-half-hour film The Brutalist.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
Brody says he drew from his mother and grandfather's experiences of immigrating from Hungary to the United States to portray a Hungarian Jewish architect and Holocaust survivor who seeks a fresh start in a post-World War II America. I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Ngakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.B. Nesper, and Roberta Shorrock directs the show.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
Something really interesting in the data that you were able to collect with the researchers is that for a period of time, though, you were pretty close to your schedule above ground. So I'm thinking about like when you were eating meals, but there came a time when then things started to almost flip like completely upside down.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
In her new book, The Inner Clock, Living in Sync with Our Circadian Rhythms, Peoples gets into the latest science around our circadian rhythms and their importance in our overall health, even beyond the hours of sleep we get each night.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
You all assess this data and what conclusion did you come to?
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
This, of course, was an extreme experiment. I mean, most of us are not going to lock ourselves in a bunker. But I think there is also this thought that circadian rhythms primarily have to do with sleep. So I think maybe it would be a good idea to have you explain just how expansive our circadian rhythms are and how important they are to our overall health.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
Peoples conducted her own experiment, first by living for 10 days in an underground bunker 50 feet below ground with no sunlight, watches, or clocks to better understand the rhythms that guide her from day to day.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
You live in Washington state. And in reading about how crucial sunlight is to our health and well-being, I just had to think about what came to mind for me, rather, is just the high percentage of seasonal affective disorders and suicides that happen in that state. And it's always been attributed to the lack of sun at certain times of the year.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
Can you just delve a little bit deeper into how crucial sunlight is to staying in rhythm?
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
In her book, Peoples digs into the latest research about how our internal clocks impact every facet of our lives, how well we do in school, our performance at work, how we interact with people, and even how long we live. There are even studies that link circadian disruption to cancer, depression, dementia, and Alzheimer's. Lynn Peoples is an MIT Knight Science Journalism Fellow.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
What I'm also hearing from you is that the time of day that we experience that light is also just as important. So you mentioned going to basketball practice. and leaving when it's dark or not getting sunlight until the middle of the day. And that might be too late.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
I'm going to get into that with you because I think so many of us, well, like, I mean, the majority of people nowadays are so tied to their phones and looking at screens and looking at screens before bed. I mean, how bad is that for us?
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
So I guess it's really bad if you're waking up in the middle of the night for you to grab your phone to help you go back to sleep. Like that's probably doing the opposite.
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
Yeah. You conducted another experiment that was kind of the opposite of the light deprivation where you soaked up the summer sun in Alaska. Yeah. What are some of the things you found from other researchers about the impacts of a place like Alaska where people experience those heavy differences and swings in light during the summer and darkness during the winter?
Fresh Air
Getting In Sync With Your Inner Clock
She's also a biostatistician and has conducted HIV clinical trials and environmental health studies. Her writing has appeared in The Guardian, Scientific American, and Nature. Lynn Peoples, welcome to Fresh Air. Thanks so much for having me on. Let's just start with this experiment that you did. So this self-imposed hideout that you went on, it didn't just shield you from the sunlight.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
I want to play a clip so folks can hear a little bit from the movie, but first I want to just set up. Your character, Laszlo, arrives in the U.S. in 47, and he goes to stay with his cousin in Philly, who's been in the U.S. for decades. a couple of years now, and he owns a furniture shop named Miller and Sons. And I'm saying that because that is not your cousin's name.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
He does not have sons, but he notes that Americans love a simple name and they also love a family business. So your character works for his cousin designing furniture for the store. And then one day, the son of a wealthy businessman asks you to redesign his father's library as a surprise. And when the father, Harrison Lee Van Buren, who's played by Guy Pearce...
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
Returns home and sees this library. He's furious. He refuses to pay. This sends your character into a spiral until a little while later, Lee Van Buren searches and finds your character shoveling coal. He apologizes. He asks him to be a part of this new project to create a community center in honor of his deceased mother.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
And in this scene I'm about to play, Van Buren asks your character why he chose architecture as a profession when he lived in Hungary. Van Buren, played by Piers Speaks First.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
That's my guest today, Adrian Brody, in the new film, The Brutalist. He's in that scene with Guy Pearce. And you're known, you're pretty well known for going the extra mile to embody your characters, in particular with The Pianist. You did all sorts of stuff. You gave up your apartment. You put your stuff in storage. You moved to Europe. You learned to play the piano.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
I think all the headlines talked about how you starved yourself. I think you lost like 30 pounds. And you do this with a lot of your films. For the movie Dummy, you literally slept with the dummy to play a ventriloquist.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
Were there any things in particular for this role that you kind of refashioned your life for to really embody Laszlo?
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
How did that role give you insight? Because I will tell you, I watched The Pianist again, and then I watched The Brutalist. And so I kind of watched them back to back. And of course, as you said, yeah, there are some heavy times, but really like a very, it was really important for me to watch it that way. And I'm glad I did.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
As you said, they are two very different films and your characters are different. But they do feel like to me that they are speaking to each other. I don't know if that's the right way to put it. Maybe it's that they both hit a similar emotional note. I'm wondering how you see that.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
The use of silence in both of the films is also really powerful. In The Pianist, the silence is because Spielman is alone in his hiding from the Nazis. But in The Brutalist, from my view, the silence plays another role. It plays a lens into the life of an immigrant.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
Like on a very practical sense, when you are coming to a new country and you don't speak the language well, you are other, you are an outsider. As you're saying, like that's a lonely experience. And so there are probably huge swaths of time where there is silence, especially when you don't have your family with you.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
I know you've been acting since you were very young. How old were you when you first started?
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
12 years old is a remarkably young age to feel so directed and passionate in what you do. Were your parents leading you? Were you leading the charge? How did it come about that you took this on at that age?
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
It wasn't just a public school. You're talking about the school, the high school that the film Fame was based on, right? Yes.
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
What was that first role? What were your roles when you were first starting out at 12?
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
You talk quite a bit about your mother and your father's influence. Your mother, this noted photographer. She used to be a staff photographer for the Village Voice, you say. People will say to you, oh, you are the son of Sylvia because she's so well-respected and your father is an educator. But I'm curious, growing up, how did your mother's work and seeing her in her creativity change?
Fresh Air
Jeremy Strong / Sebastian Stan / Adrien Brody
maybe influence your thoughts on receptions on what you could be? And had you thought about being anything else? Was acting just like a foregone conclusion?
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Hi, it's Tanya Mosley. Before we get back to the show, the end of year is coming up and our Fresh Air team is looking back at all the fantastic interviews and reviews we've been able to bring you in 2024 because of your support. We We had so many delightful, introspective, sometimes emotional, sometimes funny, always deeply human conversations with St.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Vincent, Al Pacino, Bridget Everett, Pharrell Williams, Jeremy Strong, Ina Garten, and so many others. People you know well and hopefully new people you learned about for the first time on our show. We're able to do this because of your support to your local station or by joining NPR+.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
NPR Plus has grown a lot this year, and we want to say thank you, an extra special thank you, to those supporters. You know who you are, and we see you. If you don't know what we're talking about, NPR Plus is a great way to support independent public media. When you sign up for a simple reoccurring donation, you support our mission to create a more informed public.
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Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
And get special perks for more than 25 NPR podcasts, including sponsor-free listening, weekly bonus episodes from our Fresh Air archives, and even exclusive and discounted items from the NPR Shop and NPR Wine Club. When you donate today, you join a community of supporters united in our curiosity about the world and respect for hearing out different perspectives.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Join us on the plus side today at plus.npr.org. Thanks.
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Up First from NPR
School Funding, Venezuelan Deportation Hearing, Key Bridge Inspection
This is Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. You'll see your favorite actors, directors and comedians on late night TV shows or YouTube. But what you get with Fresh Air is a deep dive. Spend some quality time with people like Billie Eilish, Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert and so many more. We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else.
Up First from NPR
School Funding, Venezuelan Deportation Hearing, Key Bridge Inspection
Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.
Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me!
WWDTM: Moe Wagner
At a football match in Bulgaria, there was a minute's silence for a former player of PFC Arda who wasn't actually dead.
Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me!
WWDTM: Moe Wagner
This is Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. You'll see your favorite actors, directors, and comedians on late-night TV shows or YouTube. But what you get with Fresh Air is a deep dive. Spend some quality time with people like Billie Eilish, Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert, and so many more. We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else.
Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me!
WWDTM: Moe Wagner
But you could have been here on Monday when it was 60 degrees. We've experienced all four seasons this week.