Tanya Mosley
Appearances
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
Can I give you an example though? And then I decided to go on TikTok and I typed that question into the TikTok search engine. And there I got a slew of videos explaining exactly what I was asking for. Now, whether it was accurate, I mean, of course, that is another topic. But I think this is an example of why this platform is so attractive to users as a search engine and a place to get news.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
but it's also a cultural phenomenon. According to Pew Research, 60% of adults under 30 get their news from TikTok, and millions also use it to generate income by creating content and selling products. Our guest today, Associate Professor Alan Rosenstein, has closely tracked TikTok's legal battles.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking with law professor Alan Rosenstein about the impending ban of the social media app TikTok. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air. Hi, it's Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
Before we get back to the show, the end of year is coming up and our Fresh Air team is looking back at all the fantastic interviews and reviews we've been able to bring you in 2024 because of your support. We had so many delightful, introspective, sometimes emotional, sometimes funny, always deeply human conversations with St.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
Vincent, Al Pacino, Bridget Everett, Pharrell Williams, Jeremy Strong, Ina Garten, and so many others. People you know well and hopefully new people you learned about for the first time on our show. We're able to do this because of your support to your local station or by joining NPR+.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
NPR Plus has grown a lot this year, and we want to say thank you, an extra special thank you, to those supporters. You know who you are, and we see you. If you don't know what we're talking about, NPR Plus is a great way to support independent public media. When you sign up for a simple reoccurring donation, you support our mission to create a more informed public.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
And get special perks for more than 25 NPR podcasts, including sponsor-free listening, weekly bonus episodes from our Fresh Air archives, and even exclusive and discounted items from the NPR Shop and NPR Wine Club. When you donate today, you join a community of supporters united in our curiosity about the world and respect for hearing out different perspectives.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
He's been thinking about the ramifications of a ban and recently penned an article for The Atlantic asking... What if free speech actually means banning TikTok? Our interview was recorded yesterday. Rosenstein is a law professor at the University of Minnesota Law School and a senior editor and research director at Lawfare. Alan Rosenstein, welcome to Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And today we're talking to Alan Rosenstein, an associate professor of law at the University of Minnesota Law School and a senior editor at Lawfare. Our interview was recorded yesterday. He's been writing for The Atlantic about the threat Congress says TikTok poses to national security and the decision to ban it.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
Last April, President Biden signed into law a bill requiring TikTok owned by the Chinese company ByteDance to be sold to a non-Chinese company. This morning, the Supreme Court agreed to take up an appeal from TikTok, and the court is scheduled to hear oral arguments on January 10th.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
You know, a big question for many people is what evidence does the government have that the Chinese government might be using our data in nefarious ways? Because we know that all of the tech companies have so much information about us. The difference is that this is a Chinese company. What evidence does our government have or has given?
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
They seem to have been pretty tight-lipped on what information they have that could be of concern. Right.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
So there are so many legal moving parts to this case. Let's start with the Supreme Court. What happens now that TikTok has asked the court to intervene?
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
Trump makes this point in that interview with Welker from NBC that others have also made, and that's that all of these tech companies also have unfettered access to our data. John Oliver pointed this out on his show last week. Tonight, let's listen.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
That was John Oliver on Last Week Tonight saying the thing that most people actually feel, that at this point, if you're on these apps, American-owned or not, they already have your data. And then there is the question of trust. When the government's not really telling us what they know, they're just saying, trust us that this is a threat to you.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
It really poses like a real issue for Americans when they're thinking about the potential for this app being banned.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I'm talking with law professor Alan Rosenstein about the impending ban of the social media app TikTok. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
This is Fresh Air, and today we're talking to Alan Rosenstein, an associate professor of law at the University of Minnesota Law School and a senior editor at Lawfare. He's been writing for The Atlantic about the threat Congress says TikTok poses on national security and what a decision to ban it could mean for our First Amendment rights.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
For the average American, they may have a hard time understanding when we say that TikTok could be a threat to national security. If you're just a regular old content creator in middle America, or you're someone who just likes to look at TikTok before you go to bed each night, what are some of the concerns that you have?
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
And you're already on all the apps already, and all the apps already have your information online. What are some of your concerns about what China could do with our data? I know that propaganda has also come up in many instances as far as TikTok scope and influence in our country. But what are some like real ways that they could be a threat?
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
You mentioned how the concern over propaganda. data privacy is not necessarily with ordinary people's data, but users who have positions in the U.S. government. We've heard of the government banning the use of certain apps before. Why couldn't lawmakers just ban government employees from using TikTok instead of a full-on ban?
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
Is there any indication that the Supreme Court might look at this case differently than Congress and the lower courts?
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
You talked about a scenario where TikTok could take... US user data and put them on different servers. And there was this project that they announced some time ago called Project Texas in partnership with Oracle, where they said they would house US user data on US servers. How would that work? I guess the bigger question is, is it even possible for ByteDance to separate American user data?
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
How important is the U.S. in the lifeblood of TikTok? I think it's interesting that TikTok is not even available to people in China. Yeah.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
Alan Rosenstein is an associate professor of law at the University of Minnesota Law School and senior editor at Lawfare. Our interview was recorded yesterday and this morning the Supreme Court announced it will take up TikTok's appeal to the law banning it and we'll hear oral arguments on January 10th. This is Fresh Air.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
This is Fresh Air. Our TV critic David Bianculli says it's almost impossible to summarize the year in television, given how many programs were produced and presented in 2024 by so many different networks and streaming services. But he thinks he's found a way, and here it is.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
You know, this is uncharted territory for Americans. I don't think that, you know, on a mass scale we've ever experienced a ban, something that's so popular, the potential for it to be taken away. App stores like Apple have already been put on notice that they could be fined for hosting TikTok after January 19th.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
David Bianculli is a professor of television studies at Rowan University. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, filmmaker and writer Miranda July talks about her novel All Fours, which is on many best-of-the-year book lists. It's about a 45-year-old married woman, her erotic affair, sexual fluidity, beginning perimenopause, and the related fears of losing her libido and getting older. I hope you can join us.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our senior producer today is Sam Brigger.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
I want to talk a little bit about some of the scenarios if the January 19th ban stays in effect. People are just wondering, what does that mean? Does TikTok just go away then?
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
I want to remind people that President-elect Trump actually got the ball rolling on all of this back in 2020. Can you remind us what he was pushing for back then when he was talking about imposing sanctions on TikTok and banning it back then?
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. TikTok is in a race against time, a last-ditch effort to save itself from being banned in the U.S. on January 19th. The CEO of ByteDance, the company that owns the popular social platform, met with President-elect Donald Trump on Monday, just hours after asking the Supreme Court to take up the case and block the ban temporarily.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
As you mentioned, President-elect Trump now is for TikTok. He's been talking quite a bit about how TikTok has been instrumental in him winning the presidential election. I want to actually play a clip from his latest interview with NBC's Kristen Welker, where she references the ruling you mentioned earlier by the federal court last week that upholds the ban.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
That was President-elect Trump talking with NBC's Kristen Welker. Alan, Trump says several things here that I want to talk through. But I want to also know first, what power does he have at this moment that could determine the fate of TikTok?
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
This morning, the court agreed to take up the appeal and hear oral arguments on January 10th before deciding whether to put the ban on hold. Now at issue is who owns TikTok. Lawmakers say the platform is a national security risk because it gives China unfettered access to our data and our attention.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
So he could direct the attorney general who will run the DOJ not to enforce the law.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
You gave three scenarios, but then there's the fourth scenario that I guess is kind of the unlikely scenario is that the president could push for a sale to an American company. But that has already been on the table for quite some time. And I found that interesting that Congress was mandating that because –
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
Last April, Congress passed a law that mandates TikTok either be sold to a non-Chinese company or be banned. TikTok challenged that law, arguing that a ban infringes on America's First Amendment rights to free speech. Now, each month, about 170 million of us spend time on TikTok. And for those who aren't on it, yes, it's a place to watch silly pranks and dance challenges.
Fresh Air
The Looming TikTok Ban
China has a law that blocks Chinese technology from being sold to an American buyer, and the algorithm is the beating heart of TikTok. So how feasible would it ever be that this company without the algorithm is sold to an American company? Would it still have value if that scenario were to happen?
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Hi, it's Tanya Mosley. Before we get back to the show, the end of year is coming up, and our Fresh Air team is looking back at all the fantastic interviews and reviews we've been able to bring you in 2024 because of your support. We had so many delightful, introspective, sometimes emotional, sometimes funny, always deeply human conversations with St.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Vincent, Al Pacino, Bridget Everett, Pharrell Williams, Jeremy Strong, Ina Garten, and so many others. People you know well and hopefully new people you learned about for the first time on our show. We're able to do this because of your support to your local station or by joining NPR+.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
NPR Plus has grown a lot this year, and we want to say thank you, an extra special thank you, to those supporters. You know who you are, and we see you. If you don't know what we're talking about, NPR Plus is a great way to support independent public media. When you sign up for a simple reoccurring donation, you support our mission to create a more informed public.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
And get special perks for more than 25 NPR podcasts, including sponsor-free listening, weekly bonus episodes from our Fresh Air archives, and even exclusive and discounted items from the NPR Shop and NPR Wine Club. When you donate today, you join a community of supporters united in our curiosity about the world and respect for hearing out different perspectives.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Join us on the plus side today at plus.npr.org. Thanks.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Well, I look forward to your next book. Thank you so much for being on our show. Thank you so much, Terri.
Fresh Air
Miranda July Wants Women To Read Their Inner Lives In 'All Fours'
Support for this podcast comes from the Neubauer Family Foundation, supporting WHYY's Fresh Air and its commitment to sharing ideas and encouraging meaningful conversation.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
John Batiste's new album is called Beethoven Blues. Our book critic Maureen Corrigan's picks for the best books of the year range from alternative history to suspense to satire to some of the most extraordinary letters ever written. Here's her list.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. Coming up, we hear from Mickalene Thomas. Her paintings and mixed media creations explore race, sexuality, and femininity. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Terry has our first interview. I'll let her introduce it.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. And our next guest is multidisciplinary artist Mickalene Thomas. Black women are front and center in her work, and her subjects are often at leisure, resting on couches and chairs, sometimes clothed, sometimes fully nude, accentuated by rhinestones and rich, colorful patterns.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
The scale of her paintings often make them feel larger than life, with the eyes of her subjects gazing directly at us. Thomas's art made me think about the slew of recent articles in the New York Times, Associated Press, Teen Vogue, and others that delve into the sentiment many Black women felt after the outcome of the presidential race.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
One headline read, Disillusioned by the election, some Black women are deciding to rest. Thomas's art showcases Black women not in servitude, as often depicted in fine art, but at leisure, claiming space. She often recasts scenes from the 19th century French paintings, centering Black sensuality and power.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
And she's also collaborated with singer Solange for an album cover, and she painted the first individual portrait of First Lady Michelle Obama, which was displayed at the National Portrait Gallery. Her latest exhibition, All About Love, is midway through an international tour with stops in Los Angeles, Philadelphia, and France.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
It features 50 paintings, collages, and photography spanning over two decades, inspired by the women in her life, including her mother, who died in 2012. Mickalene Thomas, welcome to Fresh Air, and I know you're battling a cold, so I want to thank you for taking the time to talk with us with this raging cold.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
I want to talk about this latest conversation that many Black women are having, because as we know, Black women sit at this intersection of race and gender, which for better or worse, actually means that our existence is political. And I'm just wondering, as an artist whose muses are Black women, how would you describe your art and the messages that it's conveying?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
You grew up in Camden, New Jersey, about 15 minutes from the Barnes in Philadelphia, where your latest exhibit is showing. And for those who don't know, that museum is really steeped in the classics. It prides itself in showing the world's finest artists. So Matisse and Picasso are shown there.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Your art has been shown worldwide, but what does it mean for you to have your work shown at a place like the Barnes, just really not too far from where you grew up?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
They had never seen it prior to.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Yeah. I think it's so interesting, you know, artists who create work and the world sees it. I mean, the world sees your nude body and your mother in repose. But those who are the closest, you feel like there's the most anxiety around showing it to them. What has been their reaction?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
How did it feel for you to have them receive it?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
For a span of time, you actually had museums that... were resistant to showing your work. And you believe that it had to do not with the subject matter, but how your subject matter was presented, like how you were presenting the Black body. Can you say more about that?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Trauma or I think you've said like servitude or entertainment.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
I found this to be like an interesting idea when you brought this up because it was something that I hadn't thought about when you said this. I thought, well, I've seen lots of art where there are black bodies, nude black bodies.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
But what's different about yours, once I reflected on what you're saying, is that – so, for instance, there's a painting of a black woman who's nude and she's leaning back in a chair. Right. Like people can interpret that as sexual, but it's not sexual.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
It's just a body leaning back on a chair. And it's also not performative in the entertainment sense either. It just is.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Because you're right, because many of your subjects are looking right at you, like straight out at you.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Your work is so layered. You use the collage, as we talked about, but sequins and rhinestones. And at first, you were using those materials because you didn't have the money for paint. But you've continued to use them.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
And what would you do to get those?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Right, right. There's still so much paint when you open that up inside.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Is it true that you're near the age that your mother was when you started photographing her?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Do you see her in the mirror when you look at yourself?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Your mom got to see a lot of your art before she passed.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Mickalene Thomas, thank you so much for this conversation.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Mickalene Thomas is a multidisciplinary visual artist. Her latest exhibition, All About Love, is on view at the Barnes Foundation in Philadelphia. Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. Music Today, John Batiste joins us at the piano to play his reimaginings of music by Beethoven and more. His new album is called Beethoven Blues. We'll also hear from visual artist Mickalene Thomas. She puts Black women in the front and center of her work.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Jon Batiste's 'Beethoven Blues' / Visual Artist Mickalene Thomas
Her latest exhibition, Mickalene Thomas, All About Love, mostly centers on the women in her life. It's currently on view at the Barnes Foundation in Philadelphia. And book critic Maureen Corrigan shares her picks for the best books of the year. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Hi, it's Tanya Mosley. Before we get back to the show, the end of year is coming up and our Fresh Air team is looking back at all the fantastic interviews and reviews we've been able to bring you in 2024 because of your support. We had so many delightful, introspective, sometimes emotional, sometimes funny, always deeply human conversations with St.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Vincent, Al Pacino, Bridget Everett, Pharrell Williams, Jeremy Strong, Ina Garten, and so many others. people you know well, and hopefully new people you learned about for the first time on our show. We're able to do this because of your support to your local station or by joining NPR Plus.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
NPR Plus has grown a lot this year, and we want to say thank you, an extra special thank you, to those supporters. You know who you are, and we see you. And even exclusive and discounted items from the NPR Shop and NPR Wine Club. When you donate today, you join a community of supporters united in our curiosity about the world and respect for hearing out different perspectives.
Fresh Air
Comedian Ronny Chieng Didn't Tell His Parents He Got A 'Daily Show' Job
Join us on the plus side today at plus.npr.org. Thanks.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Hi, it's Tanya Mosley. Before we get back to the show, the end of year is coming up and our Fresh Air team is looking back at all the fantastic interviews and reviews we've been able to bring you in 2024 because of your support. We We had so many delightful, introspective, sometimes emotional, sometimes funny, always deeply human conversations with St.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Vincent, Al Pacino, Bridget Everett, Pharrell Williams, Jeremy Strong, Ina Garten, and so many others. People you know well and hopefully new people you learned about for the first time on our show. We're able to do this because of your support to your local station or by joining NPR+.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
NPR Plus has grown a lot this year, and we want to say thank you, an extra special thank you, to those supporters. You know who you are, and we see you. If you don't know what we're talking about, NPR Plus is a great way to support independent public media. When you sign up for a simple reoccurring donation, you support our mission to create a more informed public.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
And get special perks for more than 25 NPR podcasts, including sponsor-free listening, weekly bonus episodes from our Fresh Air archives, and even exclusive and discounted items from the NPR Shop and NPR Wine Club. When you donate today, you join a community of supporters united in our curiosity about the world and respect for hearing out different perspectives.
Fresh Air
Bonnie Raitt / Francis Ford Coppola
Join us on the plus side today at plus.npr.org. Thanks.