Keith Morrison
Appearances
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
Haley is and how much she loves her kids. Well, yes. And it's good to see the child, you know, not repeat the sins of the parent.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
And so now we're going to take a little break. And when we come back, we'll answer some of your questions from social media. So we're going to listen to some of our questions. First question. Audio questions. This is from Lucy Tavares, I believe it's pronounced, on Instagram.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
And we are talking Dateline. Today's episode is called Deadly Obsession. This was back in 2002 when Mike Sisko and Karen Harkness were found murdered in Karen's home in Topeka, Kansas. The investigation uncovered a suspect with a motive for murder, but it would take the determination of Mike's daughter and three trials before the killer was brought to justice.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
Mike and Karen seemed like people you would have wanted to be friends with. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
Sure. Fresh starts at that stage of life can be tremendously exciting and wonderful. Yeah. Murder Mystery X writes, help me out on this. What was that court clerk doing with that device over her mouth during the trial? Did anyone else see that? Of course. Yes. Well, there's a perfectly good answer for that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
Well, it does. And that's, I guess, a newer technology that instead of having to type really, really fast, you do use a speech-to-text device. All right. Our next question is from Rawhide Velvet. Longtime Dateline fan, we first met her at CrimeCon. She says, dude, this lady is smart. Talk to the cops all you want, but to do it without a lawyer is just stupid.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
I admire and respect police officers as they do their duty. And as I've said frequently, I think that homicide detectives are some of the finest people on the face of this globe. I've met a lot of them, and they're wonderful people. And they care and they're, you know, they're deeply empathetic toward the victim.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
So, you know, that said, never a good idea to meet with a homicide detective or with a police department who wants to question you without the assistance of a lawyer. You're nuts if you do that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
Especially if you're innocent. Yeah. Okay. Strong Girl 51. Good title. Says, this family drama is heartbreaking. Huge respect for Dateline producers for navigating this mess and respecting their dignity.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
They're all wonderful people. And just as an aside, you know, for anybody listening to this, we've been at Dateline a long time, and we've only been able to do what we have been able to do because we have the best imaginable people we work with. They are the absolute best. And at Annan 13, with a good sum up remark, really heartbreaking.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
It seems to me that 70 percent is another word for reasonable doubt. But, you know, who am I to say?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
Imagine being glad your mother is found guilty of a double homicide. Poor Haley. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
Thank you for doing this. That is it for our Talking Dateline this week. Thank you for listening. And remember, if you have any questions about our stories or a case you think we should be covering, you can find us on social media at DatelineNBC.com. If you've got a question for Talking Dateline, leave us a voicemail at... Are you ready? 212-413-5252.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
Or record yourself and send it to us via DM on social media. And don't forget to join us this Friday and every Friday on Dateline. Thank you.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
How far away did she live from Topeka? Remind me now.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
So the allegation is that she drove there and back in the course of, what, 24, 25, 27 hours, something like that?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
I mean, look, you know, we've done stories where the computer in a car will reveal kind of where the car went and when it went there. No such technology in her car?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
Isn't it fascinating actually to interrupt you for a moment? Yeah. Because our origins are in Canada and my whole philosophy about media is very McLuhan-esque, right? We are creatures of our machines and the machines change who we are and what we are and how we behave and everything about us.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
So now looking at the world today, you couldn't imagine that somebody would go for all that length of time. No, no. With a phone turned off, without consulting it, without... Anything. Or without any technology in the car or anywhere else that would reveal where she was. Right. You can't do that anymore.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
Quite different story, completely different stories.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
But I kept going back to, wow, I mean, that was, the evidence, the evidence was what the evidence was. But even in 2002, where DNA was nowhere near as advanced as it is now, Going into somebody's house and shooting two people in cold blood and getting out again and getting in your car and driving God knows how long to get back to your house again.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
If you haven't heard the episode yet, it's the one right below this one on our list of podcasts. So go there and listen to it or watch it if you wish. Stream it on Peacock.com. And then come back here. And when you come back, Andrea has a clip to share, among other things, from her interview with the jury foreperson from Dana's second trial in 2022.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
Doing all of that without leaving a single hair or trace of anything behind. I mean, was she wearing some sort of special CSI gear when she went in this house or what?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
How would a marriage affect the rest of Dana's life?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
If he put a ring on her finger, what's the difference?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
Tell me more about this trampoline because that kind of stands out in people's minds as an important event.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
Hello, I'm Keith Morrison, and I'm here with the one and only Andrea Canning.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
He's got some interesting things to say about what went on inside the deliberation room. Often a surprise. And it was this time, too. Later, we'll be back to answer some of your questions from social media. So stick around for that. In the meantime. Hello, Andrea. Hello, Keith. This was an interesting story that took a long, long time to clear. My heaven.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
Yeah. I guess, according to the jury, it did. And maybe it did. However, we have the view from the middle jury, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
So we're going to hear an extra clip after this little break, if you don't mind, from your interview with the jury foreperson whose name was Benjamin Alford. Like an Alford plea, only that was his name. From the 2022 trial. And he's going to explain what led to a mistrial and say some fascinating things about what goes on in a jury room.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
If she had not acted as her own defense attorney, do you think that they would have got a conviction that last time around?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
Well, and here is our interview clip with the jury foreperson, Benjamin Alford, from the second trial in 2022.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
Yeah, yeah. Interesting, interesting. Smart guy and clearly somebody who wanted to do a good job. And frankly, in the second trial, before she testified, that's a perfectly reasonable conclusion to make.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
Oh, you bet. And she was so arrogant that she did it and clearly didn't recognize that she was sinking her own boat as she sailed along. Yeah. Let's talk for a moment now about Haley, if we can, Andrea. Yeah. The central character, really, in your story, besides the character of the mother who we discern toward the end of the show. But now I get it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
I mean, having watched the whole program and having seen her mother in court, okay, I see why maybe she would testify against this woman. However— There was a long period of time during which she was sort of campaigning for a case here. And that's so unusual. It is. How did she deal with that on a personal level?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
It's what happened here. And it was fascinating for the reason that there, you know, the obvious reason that there just wasn't any evidence. particular evidence that would point to this woman, except for some vague circumstantial stuff. It had to be all piled together. But, I mean, did you find the evidence a little bit weak in this one?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
Why did she come to see her? Did she provide a reason at the time?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
To know what you know, control what you say? Or was it, did it go that far?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Obsession
What would Haley have said? Or did she tell you anything about her, what it was like to grow up with that woman?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
Well, yes. Kenny confessed to all the murders to save her from death row. Save her from the death penalty. Save himself, too, at the same time. But really, I think the more important thing to him was saving her. As you pointed out earlier, Kenny really didn't have a chance. He was up against it from the beginning.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
His brother Kent feels bad for not doing a little bit more to save him, but I'm not sure he could have, you know, because Sante, you know, she loved this boy and she was enveloping him in her protective arms. And I guess the way of describing it from the outside is that she was trying to make herself his whole world. Yeah. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
That's exactly what it is. The craziest story ever. And I was there in New York to cover it way back in 98 or whatever the heck it was. Yeah. And when you hear the story of Sante Keim's and her two sons, particularly the youngest one, Kenny, and what they got up to over the years, my goodness, the whole circus of activities that she was involved in was quite extraordinary.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
Yeah, he struggled. Certainly he had a and and you know more about this than I do. You've spent more time talking to him.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
And in fact, to show how, uh, contagious this sort of feeling about the legitimacy or the lack of it is, uh, when she married Ken who had made a success of his life in the legitimate way, um, He was really no longer interested in being legitimate. He loved when she broke the rules and he could kind of live vicariously in her badness.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
Just a story that I hate to say it, but I really enjoyed living in it again, even though it's really dark in many respects.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
She was charismatic. She was the sort of person you love to be with. She was friendly and open. She looked like Elizabeth Taylor. She looked fabulous all the time when she could carry on a conversation with anybody high or low. She came from low. She came from very modest beginnings, iffy beginnings. We don't really know what's true and what isn't true because she lied about everything.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
Her backstory is pretty murky. Yeah, it is intentionally on her part. Right. She was an okie, supposedly, and a poor one was her story. But she got to the point where she could carry on a sophisticated and charming conversation with the vice president of the United States and was able to persuade or help persuade an official of the United Nations to make her husband into an honorary ambassador.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
I mean, it was just phenomenal, the sorts of things she was able to get away with. And then along the way, she was trying, of course, to get her son Kent to be her acolyte, to train him to be just like her.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
And she was making fine progress until he got scared straight in his mid-teens by the efforts of a girlfriend and by the recognition that he would probably spend most of the rest of his life in prison if he kept doing this sort of thing. Let's talk for a second about Kent's girlfriend.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
Oh, yeah, absolutely. You know, I have no doubt she would have been. Simply, you cannot cross Sante and get away with it. And she didn't want somebody coming between her and either one of her sons. That was simply not going to be allowed.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
It did. I think she felt that she was smarter than any authority. She would try to catch her. One of the other things about that bunch that fascinated me, and I'll include Kenneth Sr., her husband, with this, the millionaire, was how good they were at persuading otherwise normal people to engage in criminal behavior at their behest. They could persuade them to burn a house down.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
They could persuade them to illegally sign their name to a deed. They were just phenomenally good at doing that sort of thing, and she was. And I think it was her charisma and charm that really led that parade.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
They had two ideas. One was that they were going to take it over and rent the apartments for a lot of money. And then, you know, the second idea was to sell it. Obviously, it was a pretty valuable piece of property. And the antics that she went through, poor old Irene Silverman, you know, didn't see what was coming. But the antics that Sante went through to try to
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
get a notary public to sign the right kind of paperwork so that she could take over the property. Phenomenal. And she found one that would. Yes, right. And she was posing as Irene at that point. She was lying in bed like the big bad wolf in Grandma's house. She was trying to pretend to be Irene Silverman. And actually, at one point, appeared to be succeeding.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
I think she would have succeeded had she not been caught that day.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
Yes. I think they probably would have figured that out in not too long a period of time. But the luck in my mind was the fact that the L.A. cops decided it was worth chasing down this woman who had stolen this car because they thought that she was good for the murder of David Kasdan.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
And they persuaded the fugitive task force that this couple, the mother and son, should be arrested on a car theft warrant. You know, can you imagine just this 12 person or whatever it was, New York task force spending a lot of time planning and arranging for the capture of these two people based on a car theft warrant?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
That must have taken some persuading, even if they knew there was a murder in the background.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
It is. You know, when the older son wouldn't cooperate, the younger son became her next mark. And he was so attached to his mother. I think she made sure of that from the very beginning of his life. She coddled him. He was her little prince. She did everything imaginable for him, and she attached him to herself from such an early age.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
She wouldn't let him out of her sight except to go on very brief sojourns with the brother.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
Yeah. Pretty much. It would have taken a lot for him to break free. And the continuing relationship or non-relationship between those two brothers I found fascinating. I don't even know exactly how to describe it. I'm not a psychiatrist, so I couldn't go there. But one who loved her even as he recognized that she was a terrible person and he couldn't possibly associate with her.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
The other one who loved her in a way that a person who cannot break away from somebody loves them. Poor Kenny. You know, I say poor Kenny. He did some terrible things. So in a way, I don't feel sorry for him at all. He's exactly, as you say, where he belongs. But he's trying so hard to make it look like, you know, he's making amends for his past behavior. Yeah. Kent doesn't buy it. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
I don't know what to think about it exactly. I don't think I'd buy it either, but.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
Right. Exactly. Yeah. The only thing he wanted to talk about was I'm you know, I want to raise a million dollars and you're going to help me raise that million dollars. And then we'll we'll spend it on education because education needs to be better. And maybe I'll take a course in being a good military guy. And then he didn't want to really talk about it or much of anything else.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
Yes. And as I'm sure you have encountered frequently in doing these stories, Josh, as I have, when people go into prison, they tend to stay the same age in some weird way. That they'll come out 20 years later and they're still the, you know, 20 year old who went in the first place. Intellectually, you know, emotionally. And you think that's Kenny? Seems to me, yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
I mean, you know, he has done some things in there. He had a girlfriend for a while, though. She passed away. He had a girlfriend who was while he was incarcerated. Yes, exactly. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
It's one of the more interesting factlets about. Criminal justice in America, a lot of these people who have done really terrible things have whole fan clubs full of people who would like to have relationships with them.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
So this is the first interview that Kenny has done in a very long time. Well, ever since he tried to—appeared to try to either strangle or stab the CNN reporter back in 2000 or whatever it was.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
Oh, you heard the usual—the kind of practiced remorse, and I— Sometimes I feel sorry for people who are in situations like that, when society around them demands that they be remorseful before that they are able to achieve anything like forgiveness or even understanding whether they're forgiven or not. And so they'll go through all the motions of remorse.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
And then the reaction is, more often than not, is, I don't believe you, or you're not really remorseful, you're just saying that. So... In some ways, somebody who is locked up in his situation would say, well, you know, what do you have to do to be believed? I feel terrible about all this stuff, and I really would like to make amends somehow, but you just don't know. Is it real or not real?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
Well, no, I wouldn't say difficult. Kent has actually written a book about this case, uh, and has been interviewed before, you know, we interviewed him a couple of times before. So he is, he's happy to tell the story. I think he is getting to a point where he would like some sort of resolution with his brother, but he's not quite there yet. And I think once he achieves that, maybe he'll be
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
He'll move on from the story. But that's been the cornerstone of his life.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
Wow. Well, that tells you something. That's actually a very good way of describing it. That's a good bit to use.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White
I didn't hear anybody saying they think there are more. I think that probably is it. Possible there's another one, but it's never been anything that any police department has been chasing down that I know of. So-
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Not much doubt about that, I suspect. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Her children were very good about that question of Melody's character, that when they were growing up, she could be absolutely mesmerizing and delightful, and they'd love to be with her, but then it could turn on a dime, and then you could have a terrible day, and everybody would be in trouble.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
And then at the end of the trial, the most astonishing thing I ever saw, truly, when it came time for sentencing of Melody. And she sat there in the dock and went through this long screed about her son, Scott, being the guilty party. And really, it was he who did it and not me. I just, I mean, you know, anybody who is a parent looking at that thinking, my God, could I do that to my child?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
But of course, nothing is ever perfect, and behind that lovely facade, some people called this family the Ferris wheel. They hated that, and they still hate it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
I'm glad you're making this point. There were numerous interviews done from the time of Gary's death. And we happened to see video of one interview that happened to have both brothers in it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
It was not the first interview. Okay. The first interviews were done one-on-one on the property. And then there were interviews at the police station. And this was about two weeks or so after the murder.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
It was Ferris, yeah. They called them that because it was clearly a dysfunctional family. I mean, it's a wonderful place, a lovely big family, everybody with their roles, and yet there were secrets behind, which could be deadly.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Let me clarify and say that there was not a will that anyone I spoke to was able to locate. Gary being a lawyer may have had a will somewhere, but neither his family members nor his business associates could locate it. In terms of life insurance, yes, there was life insurance. And he did have a stake in the partnership with the law firm, as well as a 401k.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
And as of now, family members told me that the children have received some of those assets, but none of this is fully resolved yet.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Yes, we are not sure if the fireworks were as loud as Melody claimed they were. And I'm wondering if this is just her covering for herself and saying, well, there were fireworks going off, so who could tell? In terms of Gary's body and how it was transported, this was something that the prosecution deliberately left nebulous into the interpretation of the jurors.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
One juror theorized that when Gary was shot, he might have ran outside the door to his living quarters, which led to the hill that led directly at a steep incline to the burn pit, could have fallen and then been pushed into the burn pit by the tractor.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
I think he was the kind of guy that didn't really love going to doctors and going to hospitals. And he confided to family members that he believed that Melody may have been poisoning him. But he didn't tell the doctors that. And in fact, I was led to believe he was even a little bit embarrassed of it. And so he didn't mention anything to his doctors.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
And as one of the detectives pointed out, a special type of blood work would have had to have been done to check for poisoning. And because it was never requested, nobody just automatically says, hey, let's see if this guy is poisoned.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
There will absolutely be an appeal. The appeal is automatic. And the appeal is now in the hands of a new set of attorneys who undoubtedly will say that she was inadequately represented. And I spoke to the defense attorneys and they said to me, that's exactly what they anticipate. That's standard fare in this type of a trial.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
It was. One of the, yeah, because I've always loved Agatha Christie. Who doesn't, right? All of her books were based on a crime which occurred in a confined area with a limited number of people around, any one of whom could have been the culprit. And then it would be a process of clues pointing one direction, then the other direction, then the other direction. And that was this kind of story.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
And all questions that came up in the course of doing the story. So it's really great to interact with people whose thought process is very much the same as ours.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
It had to be somebody who had access to that particular piece of property, that piece of perfect, on that weekend. And sure enough, all the children did.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Sure. That was certainly the source of conflict between Gary and his wife because he did make money available to the grown children whenever they required it. If they just asked him, he would turn over a credit card for something they couldn't afford or for some bill they couldn't pay.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Just before all of this happened, he was going to pay for a vacation for his eldest son and his eldest son's family. They were all going to go off to Florida together. And his wife, Melody, was not happy about that. But all the children received this largesse from time to time. Most of the time, Gary, Big Daddy, did not seem to resent it at all.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
He just opened his wallet and said, here's a credit card. Use it for what you need to use it. But he began to become somewhat resentful that he felt that some of them were taking advantage of him. The two sons, perhaps more than the others, but it was a general thing. And I think he felt that same way about Melody, about his wife. So yes, money was kind of a source of tension in the family.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Well, yes, but it, you know, it'll change if you encourage the change. If you just go along like Gary did and keep shelling out the money, they're not going to turn it down, you know, especially if they're having some monetary difficulties themselves.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
I'm not sure they would agree. But the, you know, there's always a, I think in every family, and you're coming up to it yourself, there's that period where, you know, how much responsibility are you going to take for yourself? And how much are you going to lean on people who could make it easy for you? That's a, you know, that's a hard lesson to learn.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
And obviously Gary never taught that to his family.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Yeah, and he didn't seem to mind Melody spending like crazy as long as she spent it on things for the ranch or for them or for herself. But he discovered along the way, several times, she would be with a boyfriend spending all of Gary's money. So that's when he changed her from a credit card to a debit card so he could keep track of all the money she spent. And she did not like that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
So there was a source of tension between the two of them.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
How was he standing? And he was huge, 300 pounds, 6'4", 6'5", a big, big man who did not exercise, did not look after himself. He couldn't sleep without a CPAP machine.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Right. Well, when someone suffers from sleep apnea— And they have it bad. It's quite often a CPAP machine. I wish I could tell you what the letters stand for. I used to know and I've since forgotten, but it helps regulate breathing.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
So Gary suffered from that and had for a long time, but he had been on the CPAP machine for quite a while and he needed it to the point where he never, oops, hang on a second, just to get rid of that. Who is it, Keith?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
They were, yeah. So he would never have been without a CPAP machine after a certain time of night because he was very specific in his habits. So the fact that they were able to show that the CPAP machine was not used that night indicated that he was killed before his bedtime.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Well, there you go. And perfectly appropriate letters for it, isn't it?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Could have been, could have been. But those gunshots happened, at least two of them. One in the kitchen. and one either on the stairway to the basement or right down to the basement itself. And that was an enclosed house, a 38 special, which would have made a heck of a noise, and you could not possibly have confused that with fireworks.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
So immediately, the people who were questioning her realized that that was not possible, that she was telling a lie.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Yes, exactly. Well, you know, we've been doing this for a while, haven't we? Yes. Gary felt as if Melody was possibly poisoning him. Um, In spite of all the other issues in their marriage, in spite of the fact that they lived on separate floors of this house, she still cooked the food and he still ate the food. And he began to feel ill, was taken to the hospital.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
And that's when he said that about Dateline. But that was very soon before his death.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Well, he did love his sweets, you know. Yeah, she knew that. He liked to eat a lot of things and she knew he liked the cookies, yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
I think you're just getting too close to them, Andrea.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Yes, to some degree, that's true. And that's part of the reason, possibly, why it took so long. This occurred way back in 2018, finally goes to trial toward the end of 2024. That's a long time. And part of it was COVID, of course.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
But part of it was they had to try to work it all out and wait for very specific results from the medical examiner, wait for this, wait for that, try to get more evidence, more information. So, yeah, it was something of a gamble.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
One of the mysteries of this story was how this 120-pound woman could somehow get this 300-pound man from the basement of their house to their burn pile, which was 50 yards away. Or so, you know, exactly how much I don't know, but it's a long way. And, you know, she could never have lugged that man more than three or four feet, probably.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
If that, dead weight is a very difficult thing to cart around.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Well, trying to dramatize. And it was a, you know, a technique that seemed pretty effective at the time. The prosecution decided not to address the issue of how he got onto the burn pile because they couldn't possibly know for sure.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
I heard two different views from some of the people involved. One, they did have a tractor with a lift on it with a shovel. So it would have seemed quite possible for somebody who knew how to use the tractor, and she certainly did, to scoop up his body and carry it in the shovel across to the fire and then dump it in the middle. That's probably the most likely thing that happened.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
The tractor appeared to have been used that night. The other thing that one of her sons pointed out to me, Scott, in fact, he was looking around for a tow rope that they used to, if they had an animal who had died in the field or some such thing or a big heavy weight to move, they had this tow rope that was specifically designed for it. And they would tow it around with an ATV vehicle.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
that she was, that Melody was always using.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Maybe it's just a long learning curve, but you would think by now people would get it, yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
You know, nothing's ever perfect, Andrea. I mean, we all like to strive for it. We imagine it. We fantasize about exactly the lovely country property we'd love to have with the mansion or the beautiful big house on it. And our grown children taking part in the running of it. It's just a delightful idea of an idyllic family living out its days.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
It was their little secret, hers and Rusty's. They enjoyed that beverage, but that was kind of, you know, the talisman of their relationship.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
I got the impression doing this story, though, that she was only staying because it was a fountain of money.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Yes, Rusty's absolutely impeccably honest stepmother. Honest to the point where she would, you know, give up the woman she had known for so many years, Melody, and whom she loved, I'm sure, for the sake of something she knew to be true.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Yes. And it's the first time I've encountered a real genuine Perry Mason moment, which is, you know, something happens in the middle of the trial and they bring the witness in and it changes everything. I mean, that's phenomenal.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Little Patch of Perfect
Yeah, that certainly is what the, you know, what the prosecutors believed. And it certainly made sense to me.
Dateline NBC
Silent Witness
Coming up. Jason Young finally breaks his silence as he takes the stand to testify. Did you kill your wife, Michelle? No, sir. Were you there when it happened?
Dateline NBC
Silent Witness
Coming up, the prosecutor gets her chance to go one-on-one with Jason Young. And it isn't pretty.
Dateline NBC
Silent Witness
But could they prove he was the killer? It was a circumstantial case. Except for that witness, the girl who left those footprints.
Dateline NBC
Silent Witness
Maybe she couldn't tell detectives who the killer was, but maybe she didn't have to. The fact that Cassidy was spared, would that mean anything to a jury?
Dateline NBC
Silent Witness
When we come back, a security camera provides a critical clue. It's not what it caught on tape, it's what it missed and why.
Dateline NBC
Silent Witness
And now, a stunning twist in the case. I'm Lester Holt, and this is Dateline. Here's Keith Morrison with Silent Witness.
Dateline NBC
Silent Witness
A young mother found brutally murdered. Her little girl left to wander in her mother's blood. Police had a suspect, and they say he had a motive.
Dateline NBC
Silent Witness
Coming up... The case against Jason Young as an alleged killer and as a cheating husband.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Well, the jail said absolutely not. This was a rare, vanishingly rare event for them. They just don't grab such things. And there will not be another one, they said. This is it. You get your 90 minutes, which is actually more time than we often get in a jailhouse interview.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Yeah. And that was it. But the jail was interested in helping us out. I think we're curious about her too, maybe, what she would say. So they allowed us to use a pretty large classroom to set up our gear in and they allowed us the time to do it, which is plenty of time to do it, which is unusual also.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
It is a good question. And no is the answer to the question. She was strategic from beginning to end, in my opinion. She came, she winked at the camera on the way. She explained in colorful terms why they wouldn't let her take off her blue handcuffs. And she was on stage from beginning to end.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Yeah. I don't know how she managed to get blue ones.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
You did? Yeah. I don't know. Get my brain about me. You're just trying to figure out, okay, what do I do next to counter this problem that I'm confronting here? And that's where your head is. So, you know, people look. I've been called names by all kinds of people. That's if you, Andrea, it just happens. It's part of the job and it's not a big deal. You don't take it personally.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
They're just, you know, they're trying to get the better of you in an interview situation. And you don't want that to happen. But at the same time, you're not mad at them or anything. They're just, they are what they are.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Well, you hit upon my great frustration from this interview is I really did want to learn some new things and she wasn't going to reveal them. But she did reveal something of herself, a little more of herself and what her character was all about. And so I learned some things from that. I think that the program was able to portray her as she appears to be.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Right up there. And you've done a lot. You've done a lot, Keith. Yeah. I wouldn't say the hardest, but pretty close. I would interview her again. I mean, I would do it again. The time I spent with that woman was fascinating just to see that kind of character at play.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Lots of things. I mean, you know, you go in prepared for a certain kind of interview. It's not going to work out that way. And then you're dancing, right? You've got to, okay, now this is way different than I thought it would be or that I hoped it would be. So what do you do now? So then you're Add living. The rest of the time you're trying to figure it out, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
How can I get through to this person? Well, now she is showing me who she is. I would have a better idea how to do that, which is kind of why I'd like to do it again.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Well, thank you. Yes. I think this was something worth doing, even if it was frustrating.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
She's going on trial at the end of March, charged with conspiracy to murder her fourth husband, Charles Vallow.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Well, yes, the legal system considers her sane enough to go on trial and sane enough to represent herself in the courtroom. And she's a bright woman. There's no question about that. Very quick with a retort or whatever. But I really do wonder whether she is sane, honestly. It's just my question. There were months and months where they delayed her trial in Idaho, the trial for killing the children.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
She was deemed not psychiatrically capable of facing trial, of, I guess, understanding the charges against her adequately. And so she went off for treatment. She was treated for delusional disorder of extreme religious variety for months. And finally, she was declared sane enough to go on trial. She was put on trial and she was convicted.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Well, the specifics of it, I cannot tell you, but I'm pretty sure she has heard a good deal of the podcast and probably has seen an episode or two of the program. But she told me that she had been kind of waiting for me. She indicated that she wanted to talk to me.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
She didn't tell us. But my assumption is it has something to do with the upcoming trial. She is being tried for conspiracy to murder her fourth husband, Charles Vallow.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Yes. Well, Alex was her angel of death. That was the nickname that people gave him. He's dead now. He died in circumstances which seemed mysterious at the time and eventually were declared natural causes. But he was the one who admitted that he shot Charles Vallow. And he claimed it was self-defense.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
The police heard what circumstances they were told by Alex and by Lori and decided, okay, well, I guess it was self-defense. They didn't press charges.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
And so it was only later on when the investigation was resumed and the police from Gilbert, Arizona conducted a significant investigation that they realized, okay, they could certainly, they felt prove a case against Lori and that, you know, Alex was her trigger man.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
It was curious. When I saw her come in, I realized, okay, this is going to be a ride because she just presents that way. And she had all the way along, really. I mean, you observe her on videotape from the very beginning. She clearly has an attitude. She clearly stuck to her guns or to whatever she claimed her beliefs were in the whole court process.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
And so I was expecting somebody who would be that way. I had prepared a whole long list of things we wanted to talk to her about. And all of that kind of went out the window.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
As it often does. But for reasons of her behavior, her attitude, and the fact that at the very beginning, she launched into this story. That was going to suggest at the end the idea that it was Tylee who, because she was ill and not feeling well, she suffocated her brother. And then in a fit of remorse killed herself. It was a long buildup to it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
I was, you know, I let her go on longer than I probably should have. At least it felt like that. And then, you know, you just have to get what answers you can, knowing that it's, I mean, she's not ever going to answer a question.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Well, yes, and it's a good point, but also I wanted to get a proper feel for what her attitude, whether her beliefs were actually her beliefs or whether they're all made up and put on, whether she is, in fact, delusional or whether she has a great grand strategy for somehow beating the rap.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
What was frustrating to me was she knew I didn't buy this story of hers for one second, but she was absolutely determined that, to filibuster through the 90 minutes and get that story told. She would take little digressions. She would stop and she wanted to tell an anecdote about Tylee and some illness that she had years ago. It was all kind of working up, as I knew, to this conclusion.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
That was frustrating because it took the time away from what you wanted to do.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Yeah, you keep trying to break through that narrative. And that's when she would get annoyed with me and say the things she said about me.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
You don't want to put somebody on the defensive any more than you have to, because you really do want answers to questions. Yeah. So that was fairly early on in our conversation. And then you recognize toward the end, or I did anyway, toward the end of this conversation, the time is ticking by. Yeah. Got to get her on track here. So then I got a lot more direct with her.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
The police and the prosecutors, when asked about the motivations for these crimes, they would say that the motives are money, lust, and power. This really had not that much to do with actual religious principles.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Anybody who was stood in their way, they had to get them out of the way. And Chad conveniently had come up with this philosophy, this religious idea. And he came up with it while he was a sexton in a cemetery. He dug graves.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
But he had this notion that he was talking to dead people all the time and that the veil between life and death is really permeable and you could go back and forth and he could go to heaven forever. see Jesus and come back again.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
And if he declared that somebody had turned dark or had become a zombie or gave him a name like Ned Schneider, it meant that they had been possessed by evil, by the devil, and that in order to save their souls, they needed to be ushered across the veil and That's a polite way of saying killed.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Keith. Hey, how are you? Hey. Hey.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
That's how they saw the children. And that's, you know, so then Laurie's saying to me in prison, well, you know, I see the children in my cell every night and we're, you know, we love each other and we're very close. That sort of thing, you know, it fits with the notion of what they were doing to these people and what the reason they're doing. public reasoning behind it was.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Um, but again, the authorities don't really buy that. They think it's something else, something more, more venal as for, you know, whether it was Lori who was making these decisions or whether she was acting at the behest of Chad, uh, She doesn't act at anybody's behest, was my opinion after talking to her. The police tended to believe that Chad was the prime manipulator.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
They manipulated each other. And she was a tremendously manipulative person. He came up with the ideas... But man, oh man, she has an ability to make somebody do what she wants them to do.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
How do you feel about Chad now?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Like you love everybody?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Love him like a husband still? You're still in love with him?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
So, why was it so important to get married to Chad when he was already married to Tammy?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
But Tammy was ushered out of this existence, and the trial's conclusion was that she was murdered.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
But she didn't. But anyway, let's go with it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
And you bought the engagement rings before, or the wedding rings before.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Of course there was. But sure, her excuse was that she bought them for Zulema, the woman who was married to Alex.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Not able to, no. Chad being a death row, I don't think he gets to talk to people outside. They communicate extraterrestrially.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
No, just that they love each other and that they see each other. Oh, and she fully expects to be exonerated. She got onto that track pretty quick as soon as we started talking about it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Oh, absolutely. In my opinion, anyway. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
You kind of wonder about where she came from, too. And what surprises me and impresses me, frankly, in this story is Colby. Colby has come out of this so... He's a really impressive guy. And he's trying to break that chain. It's still difficult for him, but he is healing. He uses his... His podcast, I think, or his YouTube is kind of a way of helping him. And it does help, apparently.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
There's something called an ACE score, adverse childhood experiences, and that they are a pretty good indicator of what somebody is going to be like later on in life, or at least the sorts of challenges that they will face. And I would think that Colby has a pretty high ACE score, and yet somehow he has come through it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
I think that was as good a representation of her personality, her attitude, and whatever is going on inside that brain of hers as anything else. The wink at the camera was Lori Vallow being Lori Vallow. She's brazen, if nothing else.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Well, you know, back when she was going to court hearings in Idaho, she had to use candy and other- kind of materials like that to put makeup on her face. Candies you can get at the tuck shop. But apparently they now sell certain basic beauty products, very basic stuff, but they do sell them in the little commissary they have for inmates at that women's jail in Phoenix.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
So that's how she colored her hair and did the makeup on her face. She curled her hair and because they can't have hair curlers, they use towels, which they get wet and they roll their hair up in the towels and sleep in it that way. And that's how her hair got curly.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
One of those tools was luminol, a spray that turns blue when it comes in contact with blood. Lieutenant Gatlin sprayed it in Lauren's bathroom and... It was like a light switch.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
But this was strange. When they dusted for fingerprints and checked for hairs and fibers, they didn't find much at all.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
This wasn't going to be easy. Police had already rounded up Lauren's friends and her neighbor didn't want them to know about the discovery. Took them all downtown to record their statements. And while they were there... There was a call to our newsroom.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Police had tried to keep their discovery quiet. But it didn't take long before the news was online. And back in Maryland, where Lauren's family had gathered...
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Start close, as they say. Close to the victim. But how close? Oh, they had no idea.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Police look at the men in Lauren's life. Her boyfriend, David, and her ex, Joe. They wondered, could there have been a love triangle gone wrong?
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Lauren Getting's father was on the road to Macon when he heard the terrible news. It was likely Lauren, whose body they found. And so he went to police headquarters to meet with now-retired chief of police, Mike Burns.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
But who? Who would commit such a violent crime, dismember a victim, then cover his tracks so carefully? like someone had planned it, was killing to satisfy some sick craving. Did you think that morning, maybe we're dealing not only with a sick individual, but potentially a serial killer?
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Even for a New Yorker named Ashley Mueller, who signed up at the Mercer Law School here.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Meanwhile, Lauren's friends and neighbors were sitting in separate interview rooms without their cell phones, cut off from the news outside, answering questions. Among them, the apartment complex's maintenance man, also a law student, who said he hadn't seen Lauren for a while. Her neighbor said he hadn't seen her either, Stephen, the law student right next door who helped try to find her.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Stephen didn't exactly look like a lawyer to be, but he'd been her neighbor for three years and served with her in the local branch of the Federalist Society, so he certainly knew her. But like everyone else, he said he'd been busy studying.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
There were more friends, and cops talked to all of them, even a running buddy, who joined the party that Friday night at the bar.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
But he said he hadn't seen Lauren since. Do you know where Lauren is? No. Nobody was immune from suspicion, even among that group of friends.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Joe told detectives Lauren spent the night in his room Friday night, but she left the next morning. Said she was going to the pool at a local country club. But did she make it there?
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
That was timestamp 608 Saturday. So they pulled the video. Hard to tell which was Lauren's car and if anyone was with her. Joe, for example, had he rejoined her? Impossible to tell from this.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
It seemed pretty certain Lauren was still alive and well at 10.13 p.m., Because that's when she sent that strange email her friends found on her computer.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
The recipient of that email was the man she intended to move in with, David. Now the detectives wondered if they were dealing with a love triangle gone wrong. Had David found out about Lauren's night with Joe? Some people react badly to that sort of thing. Very badly sometimes. Yeah. So down at the station, detectives question David on tape.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
But then, why wouldn't she want to connect with Lauren? She was bigger than life.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
David told the detectives he was far away the weekend Lauren disappeared. He had taken a golf trip to California. Said he hadn't talked to her in a while.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Mind you, the detectives had already heard from Lauren's law school friends.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
But of course, they couldn't just take his word for it. They asked David for proof, receipts, documents to show he was away in California when Lauren was murdered. So, did he just hand them over or what?
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
David was free to leave the police station. They'd follow up with him, of course. And back at the apartment complex, they found something. But what did it mean? One of the men investigators have already interviewed is about to attract their attention all over again. I thought, it's odd, very odd. And then, a discovery in a maintenance closet at Lawrence Complex. It looks like blood.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Lauren Getting's friends and neighbors had spent hours at police headquarters answering questions, but getting no answers back themselves. So when police dropped them off near the apartment, they were surprised by quite a scene.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
The TV people knew a body had been found. That's why they were here. But some of those who'd been down at police headquarters weren't quite up to date, like Stephen, her fellow law student and next-door neighbor.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Was it just surprise, or what? Stephen had already allowed detectives to bring a cadaver dog into his apartment, and it did show some interest, but it was hard to know if it meant anything. But that, combined with Stephen's odd behavior, was enough to take him back downtown to the station for another chat, with questions a little more pointed now.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Stephen didn't budge. He insisted he had nothing to do with the murder and didn't know who did. As he talked, investigators combed through his apartment. No blood, no sign of any trouble. But this was interesting. They found some condoms. in his dresser drawer.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Lauren grew up in Maryland, halfway between Baltimore and D.C., with her friend Katie O'Hare.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Wouldn't be unusual, of course, for a guy Stephen's age to have condoms, except Stephen had told investigators he was a virgin and saving himself for marriage. Interesting.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Yes, he had met it right out of the apartments of two of his neighbors. So we charged him a burglary. And, well, they held him. They took a good hard look all around the apartment complex.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
They found this other door, a maintenance closet, locked up tight. They used a key, looked inside, and found something. A hacksaw with something on it.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
The maintenance man said he didn't buy that hacksaw and provided an alibi. But by then the investigators knew the maintenance man wasn't the only one with keys.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
A key to Lauren's apartment. Why on earth would Stephen have that? They got more search warrants to Stephen's place, and this time found women's underwear. Test results proved they were Lauren's.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Same size and brand and everything. Now they felt certain they had their man. They cleared Lauren's boyfriend, David, and ex-boyfriend, Joe. No surprise at all to Lauren's friend.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
They eventually cleared the maintenance man, too. And on August 2nd, five weeks after Lauren disappeared, Stephen McDaniel, the quiet young law school grad, was charged with murder. He maintained his innocence, pleaded not guilty. And really, a crime so awful, a dismembered victim? Stephen had seemed so harmless, had no criminal record. The evidence against him was circumstantial.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
And Lauren certainly knew what she wanted. Wanted to be a lawyer. But not one of those corporate types or even a crusading prosecutor. Lauren wanted to be a public defender, a voice for the poor and the accused. Why did she want to do that?
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
But investigators are about to discover something. A certain piece of deleted video. What was it like to see that? I knew we had it. Do they, though? Lauren Getting's law school friends couldn't make sense of it. How was it possible their odd, nerdy classmate, Stephen McDaniel, could do such a horrible thing?
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
When David Cook, who was then the Bibb County DA, had taken over, it was already a death penalty case, but he wasn't so sure it should be. After all, they had no evidence to prove the cause of death. And this was a gruesome crime, yet none of Stephen's DNA was found in Lauren's apartment. And aside from the underwear, none of Lauren's DNA was found in Stephen's place.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
And the circumstantial evidence they did have? A good defense attorney could raise reasonable doubt, perhaps claim Stephen had been framed.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
And sure enough, Stevens highly regarded Macon attorneys that already accused the state of getting evidence from improper search warrants.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
And Lauren's underwear and the apartment keys and the hacksaw packaging, all of that evidence that attorney Frank Hogue should be thrown out. Did you believe that the prosecution was particularly worried about your challenges?
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
In fact, Hogue told Stephen, before joining his defense team, Stephen was all right with it. Anyway, that's why Hoag knew Lauren herself was opposed to the death penalty. So he took it as a victory lap when the DA withdrew it. And then, technology. The Georgia Bureau of Investigation had searched Stephen's computers. Didn't find much. But now they had new software.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Always. And Mercer Law School, perched on its hillside in one of Macon's sweet spots, seemed just right for her.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
And yet still not proof that he murdered Loren Giddings. So spring 2014, nothing was certain as Lauren's family and friends prepared to go to Macon for trial.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
And as the two sides were ready to face off in court, with Stephen still claiming his innocence, the FBI probed the secrets of Stephen's digital camera and recovered this.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
He was all stealth, must have taped his camera to a long stick, said the prosecutor, so he could peer through Lauren's window and into her apartment, chilling.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Lauren was right. She did have a stalker. Someone was trying to break into her place. What was it like to see that? I knew we had him. I just, I knew we had him. Attorney Hogue had to agree.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Oh, well. Lauren found a great apartment right across the street from the law school. It was full of aspiring lawyers. Her next door neighbor was a classmate. Even the maintenance man was a student. And soon she was everywhere, running in the park, active in her church, eventually president of her law school's Federalist Society. She was hard to miss.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
And so in late April 2014, Stephen cried uncle. He'd make a deal, plead guilty, and confess to murdering his neighbor, Lauren Giddings.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Stephen said he strangled Lauren to death, then dismembered her body, put her torso in the trash bin at the apartment. The other remains in the law school dumpster. Over the years, police and volunteers searched for countless hours, even dug up a landfill, but never found anything. Lauren's loved ones, including boyfriend David, looked on as Stephen was sentenced to life in prison.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
He'll be parole eligible in 2041. Stephen, the DA believes, had been planning to kill for a long time and took pleasure in what he did to Lauren.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Had the police not turned up to check out what was then a missing persons case, had their cars not prevented a garbage truck from picking up the bin outside the apartment.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
Like David. She interned at his law firm in Atlanta. He was 20 years older, but their relationship seemed pretty serious. Until apparently it wasn't.
Dateline NBC
The Watcher
So they became an item. But there was something about David, some chemistry that drew her back. And she gave Joe the bad news.
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The Watcher
Anyway, at graduation time, May 2011, David was there to cheer her on. It was a big event for the whole family.
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And just a month later, another celebration up north, her sister's wedding.
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And then back to Macon for the final hurdle, the bar exam. A busy and scary time for a young lawyer to be.
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It was Friday night, end of June 2011. The graduates gathered at a local bar for one last blowout before hunkering down to study. They closed the bar, went to Ashley's boyfriend's place. Lawrence's ex, Joe, was his roommate.
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Lauren stayed the night in Joe's room. And the next day, everybody was moving a bit slowly.
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And then it was time to buckle down. All of the friends, Joe included, went off to cram.
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Alarm bells for one friend, while another steals herself to enter Lauren's apartment.
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It was photos from that wedding trip up north that set off the alarm. The selfies Katie O'Hare snapped and then, nine days later, texted to her friend down in Macon, Lauren Giddings.
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But no response. Was she studying too hard to look at a few photos? Katie tried again the next day and the day after that. And again, no response.
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No, she had not. So Caitlin reached out to Lauren's law school friend, Ashley.
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This was Wednesday. And now, thinking back, Ashley hadn't seen Lauren since that pre-study party Friday night. Ashley went to Lauren's apartment. Her car was there. She knocked at the door.
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Now, Ashley began to worry. So she and her boyfriend returned to Lauren's place and used a spare key to go inside. First, she warned her boyfriend...
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It was a summer morning in the heart of Georgia. Heat rose thick and damp among Macon's grand old antebellum mansions as the sweaty morning traffic crawled by. Something in the air that morning. Something off.
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Something else occurred to them. Lauren was due to move out the next day, June 30th. But...
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She'd already told her friends her plan was to move to her boyfriend David's place in Atlanta, an hour and a half up the highway.
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Even though some of Lauren's friends thought they weren't right for each other.
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Back at the apartment, Ashley rounded up Lauren's law school friends, including that ex-boyfriend, Joe, with whom she'd spent the night last time any of the friends saw her.
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Well, the other friends took a careful look around the apartment. They found some food wrappers, and in her car, a receipt from a Zaxby's restaurant drive-through. It was time-stamped Saturday, 6.08 p.m., the evening after that pre-study party. But now it was Wednesday night.
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So where did she go? For a run? Did she have some sort of accident? Or was it something even worse? Lauren's friends knew she spent time visiting prisoners when she was an intern at the public defender's office. That would make you wonder about some of the people she encountered.
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Maybe someone took an unhealthy sort of liking to her. And then they remembered something Lauren said the night of that last pre-study party.
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She was a girl who always had admirers who stood out. Just about everybody who lived in the apartment complex knew Lauren, including, of course, her fellow student and next-door neighbor, and he wanted to help search for her. He asked about window locks. Somebody check her windows to see if they're open or locked?
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Friends also checked Lauren's computer and discovered that her last online activity was an email sent Saturday night. This was disturbing.
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The ultimate fear that some evil stranger had taken their friend, Loren Giddings.
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Investigators searched Loren's apartment with a forensic tool that reveals a critical clue. Hiding in plain sight. It was like a light switch. There is a special torture to being far away when a loved one is missing. Go to sleep that night?
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Unable to sit and wait for answers, Lauren's dad packed up his car and started the 11-hour drive to Georgia. Macon Police, now part of the Sheriff's Department, looked around Lauren's apartment the night before, but by morning with still no sign of her, detectives were called in. And with them, crime scene investigator Steve Gatlin. Do crime scene techs go work on missing persons cases normally?
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She was a social animal and she would, you know, they don't just vanish, right?
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So Gatlin looked up at Lauren's front door, second floor, left side. Nothing seemed amiss. Out front, a garbage truck lumbered up, but, blocked by the police cars, was unable to empty the complex's trash bins. The truck moved on. By then, Lieutenant Gatlin was in the apartment, looking around. It just looked like somebody walked out and shut the door. Puzzling.
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Oh, this would be big. Big and disturbing. Like sometimes things can be in the South, said Joe. It was a shock. A shock to the system, yeah. But there's something else about the South. Something sweet, magnetic. It draws people in. And Macon, with its storied history and its cherry blossoms, is its very heart.
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Pretty much. That was a smell Lieutenant Godlin was all too familiar with. He followed his nose to one of the trash bins outside the apartment. We opened it up, looked in there, and I saw two trash bags. He pulled out the bag on top, ripped it open. Typical household trash.
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And then to his growing horror, he realized it was just part of a body, a woman's torso, nothing else.
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The Devil Wore White
But as Kent learned as a little boy, his single mom knew how to survive no matter how straightened their circumstances.
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As for the way Sante survived, well, that seemed normal to young Kent. She certainly didn't hide it from him. She was a credit card thief, a shoplifter, a check-kiter. And Kent became her very handy and willing assistant, with some careful motherly schooling.
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And somehow, Sante got away with it, again and again. And young Kent looked at her with a kind of awe. She didn't bow down to anybody. Out in the world, out in public, people noticed Sante. And she liked it.
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And then, pure corrupt ambition, Sante's charisma changed their lives for good. The truth is, Mom was on a hunt for a millionaire. In 1970, Sante even took a job at something called Palm Springs Millionaire Magazine and was thereby able to interview a man named Kenneth Kimes, a millionaire 20 times over, his fortune made in real estate, casinos, motels, and mansions.
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Sante turned on her charm, and Kenneth was smitten. A year later, they returned from a trip to Mexico, declared they were married, and just like that... Our lives was beyond the American dream.
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Four years later, 1975, Kenny Jr. was born. And now Sante ran a full house, but not a nurturing one. She had rules, the sort no one would dare defy.
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And the fabulous, fierce, frightening madness that was the woman named Sante Kimes. Are you more comfortable now?
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It was the late 1970s, 20 years or so before the unfortunate events at Irene Silverman's place. Sante, Kenneth, Kent, and now little Kenny Jr., all living the lush life. Fancy clothes and luxury cars and villas full of servants.
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Rhonda Martin was Kent's high school girlfriend and spent lots of time with the family in their seaside mansion. Sante was like a dream, said Rhonda, a lovely dream.
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And she knew exactly what she wanted. Made sure everyone else did, too.
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So, now that she was rich, did Sante Kimes change her ways, renounce her compulsion to lie and steal? Oh, no, not at all. And her compliant husband, Ken Sr., seemed to love it. Didn't he participate willingly in her crimes?
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So, from practically the moment they met, Ken played along. Even with some of Sante's wackier schemes, like an idea to make money from the 1976 Bicentennial, Sante used her considerable charm to cozy up to an official of the United Nations.
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It meant nothing, really. But Sante and Kenneth went swanning around like very important people, using the title to flog a collection of bicentennial memorabilia. And with an extra lie or two, the fake ambassador and his wife crashed a reception at Blair House in Washington, shook hands with Vice President Ford. Secret Service let them right through, and then they said, well, who are you?
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There are many kinds of villains. This is the story of a mother and two sons in all kinds of trouble. Is it fair for me to say that though you knew your mother was a terrible person, you loved her as intensely as a son can love a mother?
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The weird stunt was exposed in the Washington Post. Just a hiccup for Zante. D.C. again, a few years later.
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Winter 1980. Rena Beachy was enjoying a nightcap at a Washington, D.C. bar when Cannon Sante swept in. Rena watched as Sante, wearing a mink coat herself, nicked another one right from another table.
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The D.C. caper didn't work out so well. Sante was charged with grand and petty larceny. But then she ditched her own trial, simply skipped out of court, and went on as ever. That's who she was. Why did she do this? Because that's what she was. Sante's ambitions only seemed to get bigger. Like what she did with her own beautiful beachfront home in Hawaii.
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burned it to the ground to collect the insurance money. But she was much too clever to actually do it herself.
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This is Ken Holmgren. His father, Elmer, was a down-on-his-luck attorney who got roped into it somehow. Did they tell him or ask him to set fire to the Kimes house in Honolulu?
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If anyone knew how persuasive Sante could be, it was Kent. She knew the words to you.
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Like when Kent was 12 and still his mother's little helper. And one day, on his own, he stole a surfboard and got busted. I thought I was going to go to jail. So Kent tried his best to go straight. Maybe the difference between you and your mother is... If you get caught stealing a surfboard, it scares you straight. If she gets caught stealing a surfboard, it's encouragement for the next time.
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So Sante did nurture, in a way, the criminal way. And she wasn't about to let anyone get between her and her sons.
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On the outside, Kent lived what seemed to be a normal teenager's life. High school, sports, his girlfriend Rhonda, who loved spending time with Sante too, until the day... I was over there, and all of a sudden the doorbell rang, and I jumped up to answer it.
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But, as we say, this is about a mother and two sons. The other now speaking out. His first recorded interview in decades. When your mother died, was that very difficult for you?
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This is the first time you saw anything other than the wonderful Elizabeth Taylor person.
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When Rhonda got through to Kent, he refused to help his mom steal anymore. Asante was furious with Rhonda.
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So Rhonda was gone, and Kent was going straight. After he graduated from high school, Kent left home and later joined the Army.
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But then, with Kent out of the house, Zante turned to his half-brother, Kenny. Maybe he would make a better partner in crime.
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Not with his mother, no. Take, for example, a little problem she had with the household staff. At first, Sante's maids were treated well, said Kent. Like members of the family, really. but not for long.
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So much history, darkly comic to just plain dark. But we can begin, because why not begin here, in a celebration. July 4th, 1998. Millions gathered in New York City to watch the nation's biggest fireworks spectacular. At just off Manhattan's Millionaire's Row, a smaller crowd gathered for a different kind of spectacular, a dinner party at a mansion on East 65th Street.
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The women complained to law enforcement, and in a lawsuit, John Doty is a private detective who's investigated Sante's background.
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Here she is, forced to sit for a deposition about the allegations.
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The law intervened and laid a criminal charge that hadn't been used for a very, very long time.
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Ken Sr. accepted a plea deal on the criminal charges, but Sante took her case to trial and was convicted. She spent three years in federal prison, and Kent came back around to help his stepfather and brother. I was kind of a surrogate father to Kenny, in a way. And then Mom returned and things went back to normal, if such a word could be used, for the life of Sante Kimes.
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Kent got married, started his own family, made Sante a grandmother. This a decade before the events on that July 4th weekend in New York, when Irene Silverman disappeared. And though Kent tried to put some distance between his old life and his new one, Here he is running the video camera on a family vacation.
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They're at the Kimes Beachfront Estate in the Bahamas, an address that will come into play a little later in our story.
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Just a few months after that island vacation in 1994, Kent got a call from his mom. Mom's hysterical.
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And then it dawned on him. His mother was telling him that Ken Sr., his stepfather, had died. And after, Sante seemed unhinged, even more than usual. Because, it turned out, they'd blown through most of Ken's fortune when he was alive. And now that he was dead... All that was left were a few properties and some cash tucked away in offshore accounts. Mom didn't have any checkbooks.
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She had no accounts. She had nothing. Now she was scrambling for money. The frenzy of it all spooked Kent. He eventually stopped taking her calls. I had made a break from Mom and Kenny. We were estranged. And I missed Mom. Kent had no idea then that he had timed his exit perfectly. It was now just a year before that New York City summer when Irene Silverman disappeared.
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Who knew what a desperate mother and son were capable of together? It was the spring of 1998, four months before Irene Silverman disappeared in New York City. And Kent Walker was living in Las Vegas. He had done the hard part, cut off his mother and little brother, who was now 23, for good. And now? I missed the good stuff. It was hard, you know, but I was doing okay.
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Kent had no idea where Kenny and Sante were, or that they had moved on themselves. In fact, they were in Los Angeles now, had rented a wing of a house in affluent Brentwood. Looking for trouble, maybe?
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Detective Bill Cox was also unaware the times it arrived in the City of Angels. In fact, he had never heard of them. Not yet, anyway. When he caught a curious case about 15 miles down the freeway from Brentwood, something about a body in a dumpster in the back alley near LAX.
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The body in the dumpster was a male, middle-aged, with a single bullet hole in the back of his head.
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David Kasdan. He seemed like a regular sort of guy, 63 years old, businessman. He lived alone up in the valley, 30 miles from the dumpster where he ended up.
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In fact, the whole house was just about pristine. David's daughter told them she'd been there two nights previous, and she was sure they saw someone lurking outside.
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And that wasn't the only time, said the daughter. For weeks, somebody had been harassing David Kasdan, calling, stopping by. She knew there was some kind of business dispute, something about a real estate transaction gone bad. So she gave the detectives a name.
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Yes, that's Sante Kimes. A little digging revealed the connection. Kasdan had been a longtime friend and sometimes business partner to both Sante and Ken Sr., and years earlier he had done them a small favor. Ken Sr., trying to dodge legal bills and hide his assets, asked Kasdan to put his name on the deed to one of their properties, a mansion on Geronimo Way in Las Vegas.
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The hostess was an 82-year-old widow named Irene Silverman. She's vivacious. She's a lot of fun. Fashion designer Zhang Toy was a close friend and frequent party guest. She know how to throw a great party during her heyday, and she had the heart of gold. Friend Janice Herbert also loved Irene's company.
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But Sante didn't do that. Instead, without telling Kasdan, she came up with a scheme to turn a problem into a money-making solution. For her, at least.
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Shante got ready to walk away with $280,000, and Kasdan was on the hook for it all. And then he discovers he's got to pay back all this money.
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Kasdan ignored the warning, and the bank launched an investigation. And then what do you know? A suspicious fire destroyed that Vegas mansion, and Sante, claiming the house was hers, tried to collect the insurance.
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It was obvious to detectives that Sante Kimes needed to be questioned about the murder of David Kasdan. And they learned that she and her son were staying in that Brentwood house.
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They had left L.A. in Sante's preferred mode of transport, a Lincoln Town Car. P.I. Doty traced it to a dealership in Utah, where Sante bought it, sort of.
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The dealer reported the car stolen. And the local sheriff issued warrants for Sante and Kenny, wanted for grand theft auto. That was just what the LAPD needed to amp up their search. Something concrete to hold Sante and Kenny on. If only they could find them. For months, detectives ran down tips from people who knew them. In Los Angeles, in Las Vegas, in you name it.
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The mother and the son in that Lincoln were in the wind. And across the country, in New York, that wealthy widow, Irene Silverman, was still living her fine life on the Upper East Side, nothing to worry about. But the Fourth of July was right around the corner. And so was a confrontation on a busy street in midtown Manhattan.
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Mother and son, suspects in a years-long crime spree that included two murders at least. How did it ever get this far? Kenny Kimes will tell us.
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It was the beginning of summer now, and LAPD Detective Bill Cox had a pretty good idea what happened to David Kasdan, the guy who wound up in the dumpster near the airport. Knew his suspects, too, but fining them was quite another matter. Sante and Kenny were just gone. And then, sleuthing paid off. Detective Cox landed an informant, a guy who'd done odd jobs for Sante in L.A.
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Then, on July 3rd, just before the holiday weekend, the detective's phone rang. It was Stan.
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Irene Silverman had quite literally danced her way from poverty to a dream job as a ballet dancer at Radio City Music Hall. And by the time of our story, she was a healthy, wealthy widow with a fine, big townhouse in New York's most expensive neighborhood. It was for companionship as much as anything that Irene rented rooms in her mansion.
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Stan, the informant, agreed to go to New York and help lead police to Sante and Kenny.
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Arrest them for that outstanding car theft warrant, which is how Detective Ed Murray of the NYPD Fugitive Task Force got involved. He was part of a sting operation, using Stan, the informant, as bait.
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Stan arranged a meeting with Sante and Kenny at the Hilton Hotel in Midtown Manhattan. Outside the hotel, there happened to be a street fair and a huge, bustling crowd.
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Good Lord. At around 5 p.m., they decided to call it a day. Sante and Kenny were clearly no-shows.
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It was Sante. She walked through that hotel lobby as if she owned the place.
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Kenny was running late. So Sante and Stan grabbed a drink and took a walk on 6th Avenue. And then Kenny arrived. Time to move in.
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Finally subdued and cuffed, Kenny and Sante were driven downtown for questioning. Ed Murray rode up front, holding Sante's bag. What was in the bag?
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Murray situated the odd pair in that Manhattan jail. And the next day, the police unit looking for Irene Silverman, the millionaire widow missing from her swanky east side townhouse, held their press conference.
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That is when, you may recall, police presented that sketch of Silverman's missing tenant, Manny Guerin. And soon after, Murray recognized that man as the car thief he had just arrested, Kenny Kimes. And by then, Murray had made another incriminating discovery, one that tied the Kimes directly to the missing widow.
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Inside Sante's purse, along with the big wad of cash, was Irene's passport. And just like that, two completely separate investigations suddenly merged into one very big and very strange case.
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Her tenants included some A-list celebrities like Daniel Day-Lewis and Lenny Kravitz and Chaka Khan.
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It turned out the investigation was headed to New Jersey because the informant, Stan Patterson, told police that when Sante and Kenny were late for that meeting at the Hilton Hotel, it was because they were stuck in traffic in New Jersey.
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Hovigim was convinced they'd been busy dumping Irene Silverman's body that morning, returning to New York just in time to be arrested on that unrelated car theft charge.
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Impossible not to wonder. If that out-of-state warrant had arrived just a few hours earlier, would Irene Silverman's life have been spared?
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But Sante Kimes, now caged with son Kenny in a downtown jail, was as confident as ever. And her charm offensive was just getting started.
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It was more than two decades ago when I met Shante Kimes' firstborn son, Kent Walker, the kid apprentice who went straight. Kent saw it all, lived it all. But the big arrest in New York City... That he learned about from the news and... I had no doubt. I knew.
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The day after Irene's bash, July 5th, was as quiet as a country church on a Monday morning at the NYPD's 19th precinct, where Detective Tom Hovigum was working his shift. Tell me about July 5th. You were on duty. What was it like?
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Investigators, too, were quite sure that Kenny and Sante Kimes were behind Irene's sudden disappearance. They were certain they had a murder case on their hands, but they just had one big problem. They could not find Irene's body, and proving murder could be quite difficult. But then they recovered that stolen Lincoln. And it was a gold mine.
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From the notebooks, it was obvious Sante and Kenny targeted Irene for her wealth and plotted to steal her identity and drain her fortune. The big prize was that incredibly valuable townhouse. not to mention the apartments inside that rented for $6,000 a month. That's why they asked Stan to come and join them in New York. Unaware, he was now an informant.
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On December 16th, Sante and Kenny Kimes were charged with murdering Irene Silverman. They would remain behind bars to await trial. But Sante was by no means ready to admit defeat, locked up or no.
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Back in 1998, CeCe McNair was a private investigator in New York City. Sante had assembled a legal team to fight every one of the charges against her, and CeCe was brought in to help. In their first meeting, CeCe saw that jail had not dimmed Sante one bit.
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Sante insisted through her lawyers that she and her Kenny were as innocent as newborn babes.
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And the story just kept getting bigger. Tips and leads popping up from all the places Sante had left an impression. Oh, and of course, Sante had a plan. She and Kenny were going to play offense on national TV. Oh, boy.
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By the time Kenny and Sante Kimes were charged with murder, they had become household names. The mother and son made headlines not just in New York City, but around the whole world.
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That trail led reporters to Douglas Hanna, a lead investigator at the Royal Bahamas Police Force. We have a missing man here, and it appears that this woman is being surrounded by missing persons. Hannah knew all about Sante and Kenny Kimes because, two years earlier, they were the last people seen with a man named Syed Bilal Ahmed, a man missing ever since.
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John Marquis was a journalist in the Bahamas, and he learned about Sante's desperate scramble for money after Ken Sr. died.
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To quickly get at whatever was left of Ken's fortune, Sante pretended he was still alive and forged documents to withdraw money from Ken's offshore Caribbean accounts. There was just one problem. Ahmed, a bank auditor, was paying attention, and he asked to talk to Sante.
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Ahmed met with Sante and Kenny over dinner, and when the sun came up the next day, the phone rang at the Royal Bahamas Police Force. Ahmed was nowhere to be found, but neither was Sante. We tried to find out about what the link was all about. But the police chief had no idea where she was until those New York booking photos made international headlines.
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So now, Sante and Kenny were suspects in not one or two, but perhaps three murder investigations. But from her jail cell, Sante was determined.
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And they didn't do it quietly. She and Kenny started talking to reporters, including a sit-down interview with 60 Minutes.
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There they were, mother and son, accused murderers, looking a little too intimate.
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What was going on here exactly? Irene's employees said that Manny Guerin, or Kenny, was sharing a room that only had one bed with a much older female friend. And now police knew that woman was Sante. Did you hear these stories about supposedly the intimate relationship between the two of them? Yes.
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With that in mind, Detective Hovigim drove to the Upper East Side, to the six-story townhouse, a stone's throw from Central Park. This townhouse, what was that like?
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The Florida guy was someone Sante and Kenny roped into their schemes. Later, he spilled it all to the police.
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I think it's true. I suppose as much as anything, it's part of the control mechanism for young Kenny. Kent saw that TV interview, too, of course. Saw the very public intimacy. Because of the 60 Minutes interview, they're holding their hands and stuff like that. The whole incest thing, it was weird. Yeah, it just... I mean, and it's catnip, you know.
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Kenny denied it, too. And CeCe said she believed Sante, to a point.
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Rhonda was inside for a while, saw Sante try to groom Kent and then succeed with Kenny.
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Yes, and this whole so-called incestuous thing, whether it happened or not, it didn't really matter. They were always like that together.
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So a new question now. Kenny was behind bars, separated from his mother for the first time in years. What would Sante's son do, left to his own devices?
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The moment of reckoning had arrived. The trial of Sansei and Kenny Kimes for murdering Irene Silverman began in a Manhattan courthouse. It was a tricky case in a way. No body and no DNA or other physical evidence to tie mother and son to the crime. But Detective Hovigin was feeling as confident as he could be.
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The motive was pure cold-blooded greed, said the prosecution. Sante wanted that townhouse, and so they killed Irene. And Sante pretended to be Irene, duping a notary into approving the legal documents to steal the house.
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The notary testified to that, but where was the deed now? Well, the jury learned that police had been listening in on Sante's jailhouse calls. And so they heard when she asked Cece and another private detective to go pick up a bag she checked at New York's Plaza Hotel. It sounded urgent.
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The staff last saw Irene inside her house that morning, shortly before noon. She appeared to have left without telling anyone. Not what she would ever do, ever. Which is why they reported her missing.
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When the P.I. went to get the bag, investigators were right behind.
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A jury found Sante and Kenny Kimes guilty of 118 charges, including second-degree murder.
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Kent Walker, the son who escaped, has been contemplating that awful act for years.
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Despite the guilty verdict, crucial questions remained. Like, where and how was Irene murdered? Only they knew that, and neither would say, yet. Kenny was sentenced to 125 years, his mother to 120. Kenny was sent to a prison in upstate New York, and that's where freelance journalist Maria Zone went to interview him while working on a court TV documentary.
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So Maria got a Snickers bar and a water from a vending machine. And then she handed them to Kenny. Big mistake.
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The core TV crew recorded a few seconds of it until Kenny demanded they stop. He was holding a pen to Maria's throat, the same pen you could see him handling during the interview. Maria was terrified, but like a good reporter, kept asking questions.
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But no sign of Irene. And curiously, two other people seem to have vanished too.
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He held her there on the floor for hours while hostage negotiators kept looking for an opening and Maria kept talking.
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That was the distraction the authorities needed. The guards pounced.
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For his violent stunt, Kenny got sent to solitary confinement. And years would pass before he would see his mother again. A reunion in an L.A. courtroom where a chilling story would come tumbling out.
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The Kimes were serving time for killing Irene Silverman, but the story was far from over. California was waiting to try them for the murder of David Kasdan. Mother and son faced the death penalty for that one.
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Advice Kenny took. He agreed to plead guilty if prosecutors took the death penalty off the table, and not just for him, but for his mother, too. It was a no-brainer for L.A.
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Sante, however, wasn't quite so flexible. Confess? Not a chance. Not even when they told her that her Kenny, though few would have imagined it possible, was going to testify against her. It began in June 2004. It was theatrics from the start.
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Defense investigator CeCe McNair was there when Kenny took the stand.
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As Kenny spoke, a lifetime of loyalty died. He told the jury it was Sante who decided Kasdan had to go because Kasdan got wise to their scams. Sante, who ordered him, Kenny, to do it. And so, of course, Kenny went and took his pistol when he presented his smiling face at Kasdan's door.
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And then he heaved Kasdan's body into that dumpster by the airport.
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Oh, but there was more. Kenny described exactly how he and his mother murdered Irene Silverman.
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After, said Kenny, he put Irene's body in the trunk of that stolen Lincoln and dumped it in a trash bin in Hoboken, New Jersey, and drove back to Manhattan just in time to be arrested with his mother.
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Though not alarmingly, yet. But then, outside, near the front entrance, they found blood. And Tom Hovigim's missing person case suddenly became urgent.
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And Kenny had one more story to tell. This one about that missing banker in the Bahamas, Zayed Ahmed, last seen having dinner with Kenny and Sante. Last meal of his life.
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So, was he sorry for his crimes? Is that why he offered his confession? Kenny's brother didn't think so.
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Sante was convicted and sentenced to life without parole and installed in New York's Bedford Hills Prison, there to spend the rest of her days, though not quietly.
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Defiant as usual. But for the victim's families, at least the not knowing was over. Except, not quite. There is one more story. This one happened back when Kenny Jr. was still a teenager, not yet a killer. It's the story about that other son named Ken and his father, Elmer.
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Elmer Holmgren, the down-on-his-luck lawyer Sante somehow persuaded to burn her house down in Hawaii. For the insurance, of course. Except the feds got wind of it, and Holmgren decided to cooperate, wear a wire.
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But then, Ken Holmgren is sure, Sante and Kenneth Sr. found out. And they took Elmer on a little holiday to Costa Rica.
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Pretty soon, the whole country would take an interest. Because the case of the missing socialite was about to take an unexpected turn into something diabolical. Ever had any other case anything like this in your career? Not even close. What would follow, and what came before, is a story when all told of crimes astonishing in scale and scope.
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Murdered, his son believes. So there was never a trial, there was never a charge, there was never anything having to do with your dad. Does that matter to you a lot?
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Elmer Holdgren's name would have been there as somebody whose death had been accounted for and some kind of justice done. Correct. Yes. Yes. Justice. Kenny Kimes has had more than two decades in prison to reflect on that. and to make sense of the broken life and love he shared with his mother.
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I find that very interesting, actually, Kenny, that you can say you love your mother, that you... I love my mom and dad forever. And now, in his first TV interview in decades, he's going to try to explain...
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For a long time? For years. Rhonda Martin, Kent's high school girlfriend, finally got the news with everyone else in 2014. After 16 years behind bars, Sante Kimes died. Are you more comfortable now?
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Wow, that's saying something, isn't it? A woman who charmed and harmed, whose death, even for the son who ran from her all those years ago, was very, very hard.
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Though there is Kenny, so Kent is not the only son to feel the pain.
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Today, Kenny Kimes is 49 years old, serving his time in a prison in San Diego.
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He agreed to speak with us on the phone, which is what the California prison system allows. But this would be his first recorded interview since the day he took that court TV reporter hostage a quarter century ago. And it was a much different Kenny this time.
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This was his reason for talking to us, to tell us he had come up with, on his own, a grand idea.
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Just how did this convicted killer plan to raise a million while in prison for life? Well, he isn't exactly sure about that, he said. It was that kind of conversation, friendly, with some kind of limit, we sensed, coming soon. Is there anything that you would like to say now to the families of those people, to the survivors of those people, that would be... I'm sorry.
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Mind you, he said, it was his mother who did it, who made him a killer.
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I find that very interesting, actually, Kenny, that you can say you love your mother.
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And have those positive feelings toward them, even though your mother was the one who instructed you to kill people. I mean, it's something for people to wrap their heads around. I'd like to wrap my head around it.
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Hawaii to the Caribbean. And at the center of it all, a criminal mastermind, the likes of which we won't see again, with any luck.
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Still friendly, but his mood seemed to have changed. When your mother died, was that very difficult for you?
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He was baptized a Catholic in prison, he told us. Then I probed a little more about his mother, rather gently, and the conversation grew strained. Well, I was just curious to know if your mother, like you, came to regret her crimes and... And try to achieve her own kind of redemption or whether she was just, you know, Sante all the way along to the end.
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And that was that. But as we tried to understand why that would be a trigger for a hang up. Kenny called back to tell me he didn't want to talk about his mother anymore.
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By which he meant his pitch to raise a million dollars for education is tangible contrition.
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But there is one more bit of family laundry and it is still unwashed. Your brother, Kent, the last time I talked to him, he talked about how he regrets not being able to help rescue you from that situation. Is that something that bothers you too?
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And Kent told us he doesn't visit Kenny often. Not sure he wants to anytime soon. Because, for one thing, that contrition Kenny talked about? Kent is a skeptic.
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The sons of Sante Kimes... That magnetic criminal homicidal mother. That tireless teacher of grift and chaos and violence. One who killed for her, locked up for a lifetime. The other, focused on gratitude for escaping her lethal orbit. To find a life that's full and a little more boring.
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They looked everywhere that Fourth of July weekend in New York, sent the canines sniffing through her mansion top to bottom. But try as they might, they could not find Irene Silverman.
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Irene's friends, like fashion designer Zhang Tui, were worried sick.
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But no ransom note appeared. If someone had taken her, must have been a thief too, because $10,000 in cash she kept in the townhouse vanished with her. Suspicion landed first on that missing staff member. Detective Hovigum learned he was a longtime employee with access to Irene's financial records. He'd boarded a flight to Atlanta shortly after she vanished.
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The detectives also talked to Irene's tenants, of course, and all were quickly accounted for and alibied, except for that young guy from the room on the first floor.
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His name was Manny Guerin. He'd arrived two weeks earlier. He didn't have a reference or an ID, but he seemed nice and he gave her $6,000 in cash up front.
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And this Manny Guerin, Irene's longtime caregiver, Marta Rivera, said he refused to let housekeepers inside his room to clean. And she thought she knew why.
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An unknown woman in there? That was it for Irene. She told friends she wanted Manny Guerin to leave.
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On Monday night, July 6th, Hovigim's unit asked the public for help to find Irene Silverman and her suspicious missing tenant.
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The next day, Hovigim got a call. Someone had recognized Manny Guerin from the police sketch. It wasn't a member of the public, but another of New York's finest from a different department of the city's sprawling police organization.
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Ed Murray was a detective working for the NYPD's Fugitive Task Force. When he saw the sketch of Manny Guerin, he said he knew right away who it was, and it wasn't Manny Guerin.
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Kenny Kimes? Murray was certain the man in the sketch was actually a car thief named Kenny Kimes, who he'd taken into custody just a few hours after Irene Silverman disappeared. Kimes had been arrested with his mother, Sante, for writing a bad check for a Lincoln Town car back in Utah. An unusual pair, those two.
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So one department talked to the other, and pretty soon Detective Hovingham was showing Kenny Kime's booking photo to Irene's employees.
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In that moment, there was no way, of course, for Detective Hovigim to fathom just who he was dealing with, where this Kenny Kimes and his mother Sante had already been, and what they had already done. Almost 48 hours after Irene Silverman disappeared, NYPD detectives found her missing tenant, Manny Guerin, already in custody. But he'd been arrested under a different name. His real one.
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Kenny Kimes. He was locked up alongside his mother, Sante. And she, they learned, had a rap sheet miles long, reaching back decades before her son Kenny was born.
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It was evening when they found her, found her prone in her cell at the Bedford Hills Correctional Facility in New York. A guard raised the alarm, and they rushed her to a nearby hospital. But it was too late. Her enlarged heart was so badly damaged it could not go on beating. She was 79 when she died. Sixteen years past the outrages, the mayhem, the murders...
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Didn't work. Kenny Kimes gave away nothing. So who were these people? Mother and son car thieves and maybe killers. And what might they have done with innocent elderly Irene Kimes? In a New York Minute, those questions became a huge national story.
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Kent Walker, that firstborn son, Kenny's older brother, the one we told you about back at the beginning. Kent had the answers. Some of them, anyway.
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Oh, yes. Kent's mother, Sante Kimes, was a woman of many names and many schemes. Every body, gorgeous, terrible bit of her. She was born in 1934. Her birth name was Sante. As a teen, she switched it to Sandy, and then back again. She changed her name frequently from then on. Changed her story often, too.
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True? Maybe. Maybe not. Asante told it, her father abandoned the family.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Melody said she and Gary had gotten to a stage in their affluent lives in which the two of them slept not just in separate rooms, but on separate floors. She had the upstairs, while Gary turned the basement into a sprawling man cave, which had a bedroom, a bathroom, office, even a home theater.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
It was a refuge where Gary could go to ground and get lost in his work or a movie, undisturbed by all the clatter of life happening above.
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But if Gary's subterranean lair was cozy, contained, the crime scene itself was vast. Gary could have been shot anywhere on their spread. Lots of wide open space for a killer to slip in and out undetected.
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The boys being sons Chris, who lived and worked in nearby Atlanta, and Scott, who ran the farm and lived there in a converted barn. And truth be told, said Melody, Gary had been having problems with both of their sons.
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And it wasn't just their own sons who were a problem. Daughter Emily's husband was a thief, too, said Melody.
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Melody said daughter Amanda was the only one who wasn't out for Gary's money.
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It's hard to put into words the level of family dysfunction detectives were hearing about. Seemed almost like that movie Knives Out, where after the death of a family patriarch, all the heirs turned out to have a motive for murder. So, like the characters in the movie, nearly every Ferris would have to be considered a potential suspect.
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Oh, and Detective Hayes also had to consider the possibility that money was not the motive, that maybe it was love, which meant he had to ask Melody, who just lost her husband of 39 years, a very uncomfortable question.
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It was by now obvious to Melody that Detective Hayes was looking at her as something other than a grieving widow.
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And if they had heard that ancient advice, that fodder for so many tragedies... Would they have listened or plowed on to the fate that waited for them? Careful what you wish for. Their name was Ferris, and they hated it when strangers implying dysfunction called them the Ferris Wheel. Still, like spokes on a wheel, they stayed ever-connected to this sweet place, this hub.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Melody felt it was time to set Detective Hayes straight, that she was the last person who would benefit from Gary's death. He had no life insurance, and none of the assets were in her name, she said. With Big Daddy gone, she didn't know what was to become of her.
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And then, a few hours after this interview, Detective Hayes' investigation took a turn when a fellow detective happened to notice something. And it was nowhere near the burn pile.
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Establishing the time of death in a homicide investigation is tricky business. Even more so in the case of Gary Ferris. By the time investigators started sifting through that burn pile, Gary's remains were nothing more than ash and bone, fragments of which were sent to a crime lab to be positively identified. There was no way of telling how long he'd been dead. Hours? Days? No one could say.
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So investigators tried to narrow down the time of death by talking to the pool of potential suspects. Gary's son, Scott, told Detective Hayes in a recorded interview he saw his dad on Tuesday, July 3rd at the Cherokee Ranch restaurant. Must have been around 1 or 1.30, said Scott. That's the last time I ever saw my father.
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Gary's other son, Chris, said he saw his dad a few hours later when he, Chris, dropped by the farm with one of his daughters for a quick visit.
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Chris said he left the farm around 5.30 that evening. Melody, speaking to Detective Hayes, picked up the timeline from there.
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Melanie said they had dinner about an hour or two later, and then they went their separate ways for the night.
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Melody said she figured Gary had gone back to check on the burn pile before heading off to bed. Scott said when he got home about three hours later, the fire was still going, but his dad was nowhere in sight. Scott said he went to bed that night around midnight, then left early the following morning, Wednesday the 4th, to go golfing and didn't get back to the farm until late that evening.
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On the morning of Thursday the 5th, he said, he was heading off to get his hair cut when his mom stopped him and asked... Have you talked to your dad or seen your dad?
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So based on Scott's and Chris's and Melody's accounts... Gary's whereabouts were unknown between the night of July 3rd and the afternoon of July 5th, when his remains were discovered in the burn pile. Except...
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Except that while searching Gary's basement dwelling, an investigator came across this CPAP machine, a life-saving device that helps people who suffer from apnea breathe normally while sleeping. Gary never went to bed without it. And like many electronic devices we now have in our homes, this CPAP machine is programmed to collect user data.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
And sometime after, Melody said she saw him around 8 or 8.30 p.m. So Gary must have met his death sometime between 8.30 p.m. and 1 a.m. on the night of Wednesday, July 3rd. The only people home then, as far as police knew, were Melody and Scott. And now, a CSI team was finding evidence Gary had been killed in his home.
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And at the base of the stairs, something shiny caught the eye of a fellow detective.
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Detective Hayes said a blood-illuminating chemical revealed even more evidence.
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Based on the blood drops, Hayes developed a theory that Gary was shot in the kitchen, then fired at again as he ran down the stairs into the basement, where the blood trail continued across the floor and out a sliding door to a patio where it ended. So, two gunshots inside the house. But Melody had told Detective Hayes she didn't hear a thing. So Hayes asked her once again.
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Melody said that was it. That's all she knew. But Gary's sons, Scott and Chris, they said they knew a lot and had a story to tell.
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The farm is what they called it. That's Chris, the oldest of the four Ferris children, and they are his parents, Gary and Melody. Chris's brother Scott, an Iraq war vet, lived in an apartment above the barn, and he helped run the place.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Question was, how much of their story could be believed? For one thing, as the detectives freely admitted, they were not used to this sort of thing. Murder was a rare business around here on the posh, low-crime side of Cherokee County, Georgia. But though the Ferris estate was idyllic, the family most certainly was not.
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So when they interviewed the brothers, they carefully and repeatedly went over their timeline.
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That was eldest son Chris. The younger son, Scott, seemed a trickier case. Scott lived right on the property in his apartment over the barn. He said he'd been gone all day with friends out of the lake.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
So, police knew two people were at home that night, Melody and, later in the evening, Scott. Detectives figured Melody was too small to lug her 300-pound husband to the burn pit, but Scott was big enough and strong enough to do exactly that. Plus, his behavior seemed curious. Scott told detectives that weeks before the murder, he came across a pistol in the basement.
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But when he looked for it after the murder, the gun was gone. Useful to know. The only problem was Scott started searching for the pistol after his father's remains were found, but before anyone knew he had been shot with a gun. Did it seem strange to you that Scott would be going around the house looking for whether a gun was there or not?
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A feeling that only grew when they found ammunition in Scott's apartment. The same caliber of bullet found in Gary's body.
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They also wondered about something Scott did after his father disappeared. His mom had asked him to check the trail camera.
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Especially after detectives learned about the family disputes over money. Melody's friend, David Thomas.
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Chris and his two sisters, Emily and Amanda, were like near planets in the farm's orbit, and they gathered often for three-generation family dinners, family parties, grandkids coming and going as they pleased, running amok among the goats and horses and chickens, watched by their tiny grandmother, Melody, for whom Gary bought the place, really, an old-fashioned family when it came to money.
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Little sister Amanda told police she was worried about Scott and Chris and how they were behaving toward their mother.
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David Thomas said Melody was increasingly afraid of her sons.
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And so they would have a motive to do some harm to her. Exactly. She thought that was a possibility? She thought it was a real possibility. If Scott and Chris were, in fact, suspects, detectives kept that to themselves.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Actually, Chris and Scott Ferris told police exactly what they thought. And what they thought was detectives should be taking a long, hard look. at Mommy Dearest.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Huddled up in the Cherokee County Sheriff's Office, the brothers Ferris were about to display some family laundry. the soiled kind that generally stays politely secret. And in doing so, the brothers revealed they both had a bit of an attitude about their mother, Melody.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Scott said his mother was difficult sometimes, certainly dramatic.
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Well, what about dredging up a bit of family history, prompted by the detective's simple question about that missing handgun?
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That is when Chris mentioned a family friend named Ted Wiley.
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My, a long-kept family secret, it turned out. More like a soap opera on steroids. Co-starring Gary's sister, Sherry.
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Ted and Sherry were together until something pulled them apart. Someone, to be clear. Someone whose name was Melody Ferris.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Gary was a prominent Atlanta attorney. Gregarious, friendly, and big. 6'5", 300 pounds. Big Daddy, the family called him. Everybody loved Big Daddy. On July 3rd, 2018, just before things happened... Chris took his daughter Addison to the farm, said hello to Big Daddy, and Melody.
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But when Gary heard about it, he felt sure she was cheating on him.
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Melody actually left Gary, and though she denied it, family members believed she was staying at Ted's farm.
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All she had to do was come back to him. He must have been, he must have still been in love with her. Was he?
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A Little Patch of Perfect
And that's how they ended up with the farm in Cherokee County in 2013, five years before Gary's death.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
But Gary was a smart guy. Maybe he loved Melody, but he sure didn't trust her. Not anymore. Big deal was made of that, that he was somehow controlling the amount of money she was able to spend because he could see it when she spent it come out of the bank account.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
And that brings us back to that toxic family situation in which Gary's children seemed to have ready access to his money, but Melody was on an allowance and under surveillance.
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There was one other thing police couldn't ignore, something they heard time and again. They knew about Gary's unhealthy lifestyle, his appetite for cigarettes and sodas and food. But people close to Gary were wondering about those spells of his.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
One such spell put Gary in the hospital three months before his death. Chris was there, so was Melody. But when she left the room, his dad told him this so-called spell started that day back at home.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Gary believed something terrible was happening to him, something unthinkable.
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Without proof, it could just be an outrageous old accusation from an angry husband. Melody insisted she would never hurt Gary, and she absolutely was not cheating on him. And yet... Well, there just might be evidence to the contrary.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
So, who was this new guy? And why was his credit card in Melody's wallet? Melody Ferris was as adamant as a woman could be. No matter the complexities of her long marriage to Big Daddy, she did not, would not, could not ever damage so much as a hair on his lovely big head.
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even though Gary gave in to the demands of those children way too often, while making her beg for the money she very much needed.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Detectives reviewed what they had. A dead man shot and burned beyond recognition. A marriage that was, well, not exactly joyous. But also children who may or may not have had a motive to murder. And they had those drops of blood and that spent projectile. So, their theory went, Gary was shot in his own house and then moved somehow to the fire.
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Oh, and they also had this, a mysterious credit card in Melody's wallet on which was imprinted the name Roy Barton.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
And that was that. The next day, the 4th, Chris was back with Addison, dropped her off for a farm sleepover with a cousin. And the two girls went looking for Big Daddy. Couldn't find him. Nor could Melody. She said she hadn't seen him all that day.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
A lover, perhaps? They danced around the question during Melody's interview.
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Melody told them Roy's widow, Martha Jane Barton, gave her the credit card.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Of course she'd have that affair with Ted. But she wasn't admitting it.
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Ended it a year ago, she said, though she still talked to him on the phone.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Well, seemed more like a false start to the detectives. More likely, they figured the tattoo led back to Rusty, just like that credit card, the one owned by Roy Barton. Because, they learned, Rusty's real name was Roy, just like his late father. So it was Rusty's credit card in Melody's wallet.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
The credit card wasn't the only thing Rusty gave Melody. As the detectives discovered, he also got her a cell phone, one that allowed them to talk privately. So, of course, they got the records for that phone.
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Two days later, detectives were on the road heading north to Tullahoma and Rusty Barton. Chase a lie about love and sex, and who knows what greater sins it might expose. Cherokee County detectives believe that Rusty Barton was key to their murder investigation.
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Detectives wondered what exactly Rusty knew about Gary's death. Maybe he'd even helped Melody move that big body? But when they questioned Rusty with his attorney in Tullahoma, Tennessee, they didn't get much, not at first. They came at him hard, and he came right back at them.
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But he was still gone the next morning, July 5th. Wasn't answering his phone either. Chris found out from his worried sister, Amanda, who'd arrived at the farm that morning.
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Detective Ashley Polk told Rusty flat out he didn't believe him. After all, Rusty gave Melody that phone so they could have private conversations.
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Thursday, July the 5th, that is. The day the Ferris has started looking for Gary. The day Scott called 911. The detectives warned Rusty again that if he knew anything about what happened to Gary, now was the time to tell them or possibly face charges himself.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
They did. It checked out. But then they looked at his cell phone records and discovered he'd fiddled with his phone after Gary's death, took Melody's name out of his contacts, at one point substituting two letters, X-O, the symbol of a beverage they enjoyed together. Whatever. Obviously, that was the real reason for Melody's tattoo.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Back in Tullahoma, back at the table. But then Rusty and his lawyer stepped out of the room.
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They did want to hear it. And how? Because it was huge. Something Rusty said Melody told him in a call just hours after the presumed time of death.
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The detectives knew they had struck gold, but they wanted corroboration. So they asked Rusty to record his conversations with Melody without telling her. He agreed. They were elated.
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Maybe Rusty wasn't being so cooperative after all. What were they left with? Well, motive. No will was ever located. So who would benefit from Gary's untimely death? Who else?
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Same for the girls. Despite what Melody told detectives, Emily and her husband said they never stole from Gary. And neither Emily nor Amanda stood to gain from their dad's death.
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Chris got in his car, drove to the farm, anxiety building with each passing mile.
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Was that something that you began to think before you heard it from any official source?
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It took almost a year to get official confirmation of something the detectives were already convinced of, that the bones in the burn pile were indeed Gary's. And days later, the Cherokee County authorities issued a warrant for Melody's arrest. As it happened, she was in Tennessee at the time visiting Rusty. He drove her to a local police station to surrender. And the Ferris family exhaled.
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It was October 2024. when Melody Ferris finally went on trial for murder. A trial in which jurors would hear a tangled tale as much about the Ferris children as about their mother.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
When they finally put Melody Ferris in front of a jury, Assistant DA Megan Frankish confronted a few challenges. I mean, it's almost like an Agatha Christie story. You've got a confined space. There's this ranch. There are a few people who are attached to it. And all those people are kind of in some way warring amongst themselves. And the man who controls the money is suddenly dead.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
But you had no murder weapon. Well, what could you do about that?
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Not to mention the long delay getting to court. Six years. But with legal delays and COVID... before Melody cast a baleful eye on Assistant DA Jeffrey Fogus as he addressed the jury.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Gary's younger brother, John, would be a constant presence at the trial, sitting with his wife, Nancy, two rows behind the prosecutor's table. You went to that trial every day, huh?
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A Little Patch of Perfect
But outside the courtroom, he'd find himself coming face to face with Melody. She'd been free on bond for years, and she took the regular breaks like everyone, passing her late husband's brother in the hallways. How'd you feel about that? I didn't like it. You must have carried around a lot of anger about that woman.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Prosecutors argue that cell phone data and call records told the story of what happened that night. Gary left a farm earlier that evening, returning around 9.30 p.m., and that's when Melody, the only other person on the farm, shot and killed him. He never again sent a text or made a call or checked an email, and he never turned on that CPAP machine.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Melody, meanwhile, was a busy bunny that night and the next morning, talking to Rusty, moving around the property.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
But how was Melody able to move Gary's heavy body? Well, investigators developed a theory after noticing a tractor on the farm and what appeared to be matching tracks near the burn pit. Brothers Scott and Chris said it seemed out of place at the time.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Scott checked the trail camera for signs of Big Daddy. Nothing, he said, but images of a few critters. The mood was becoming more and more frantic as Chris arrived.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
So, maybe Melody used the tractor to move the body? However she did it, prosecutors said Melody figured out a way to get Gary in the fire before Scott came home. And, they said, Melody all but confessed to it when she told her lover, Rusty Barton, that Gary was dead long before anyone discovered his body. To stress this point, they called Rusty as a hostile witness.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
The whole reason Melody wanted Gary dead, said the prosecutors, was so she could tap into his resources without any restriction.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Then prosecutors told jurors about Gary's suspicions that Melody tampered with his food, something he confided to his legal assistant, Angela Phillips.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
One by one, each of the Ferris children testified. Three of the four against their own mother.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
including how he didn't want his wife spending his money on other men.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
And Melody wasn't just preoccupied with Gary withholding funds from her, said the prosecutors. She was jealous of the money her husband gave their adult children. Just days before Gary was killed, Emily told jurors she received a text from her mother, who seemed to be at a breaking point.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Which is one of the reasons prosecutors called Chris Ferris to the stand.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
But Chris denied stealing from his father. Did he send you a text saying, you know, you've got to pay your own way or I'm going to cut you off?
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A Little Patch of Perfect
The jury also heard from Chris's younger brother, Scott. Was it a risk to put him on the stand to be a kind of a pincushion for the defense to go after?
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Oh, but Melody's attorneys were not finished with Scott. Not by a long shot. Maybe it was he who belonged in the dock, facing life behind bars.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
The burn pile, a common thing on farms like the Ferris's, a place to burn branches and shrubs and whatever. In a controlled, contained place, or sort of contained, Gary loved his burn piles, the bigger the better. By the time Scott got to the pile, it had about run its course. It had been intense, you could see. It burned everything. Or rather, not quite everything.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
The defense of Melody Ferris was certainly robust, and nothing if not dramatic.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Those investigators all but rigged the case against an innocent woman, said defense attorney Michael Ray.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
It seemed, however, that, you know, if you ask the age-old question, who benefits? Well, Melody benefits. He controls the money. He's dead. She gets the money.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
No motive, said the defense, and no actual evidence Gary had even been killed in the house. Certainly not by Melody.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
That blood said the defense didn't even come from a gunshot wound.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Oh yes, Scott. The defense was getting to him. Like when they repeatedly told the jury Melody wasn't big enough or strong enough to move all that dead weight after Gary was killed. In fact, they took jurors to the farm where they could see for themselves how hard it would be. Here's defense co-counsel John Luke Weaver.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Also, the time of death? No way to know, exactly. But the defense argued Gary died later than prosecutors said, when Scott was already home. And no one had more motive, the defense said, than freeloading, greedy Scott, who'd taken advantage of his parents for years.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
What about Scott? What was your strategy for going after him on the stand?
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A Little Patch of Perfect
And one more Ferris offspring waited in the wings. Amanda, the youngest, supported her mother and told the jury Scott had an unusual fixation with his parents' country estate.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
He also said he never threatened to burn the house down and never once stole anything from his dad. In fact, he told us Amanda's testimony was yet another example of their mother's manipulation.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
But the defense attorneys still had to tackle their most daunting challenge, that incriminating statement from Melody's lover, Rusty Barton, saying she told him Gary was dead before his body was found.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
The defense argued Rusty's claim wasn't a big deal because after the interview with police, he called back to say he had the dates all wrong. Melody only told him Gary was dead after his body was discovered.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
There was an audience for all this in the courtroom, of course, but also an audience of one glued to a live stream way off in Tennessee. Someone who knew Rusty and Melody very well. And she had something she desperately needed to share. So she picked up the phone and called the sheriff right in the middle of the trial.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
The case against Melody Ferris was well underway when it happened. It was a call from out of the blue to the Cherokee County Sheriff's Department from a woman who said she needed to get something off her chest.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Assistant DAs Megan Frankish and Jeffrey Focus were busy arguing their case when the call came in.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
In the gallery, Gary Ferris' brother John noticed a sudden flurry of activity.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Martha Jane Barton, Rusty Barton's stepmom and Melody's cousin.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
And that's when Martha Jane remembered. A .38 caliber Rusty's late father had given her more than 40 years earlier.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
But after Melody's arrest, Martha Jane said she realized something was wrong.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
After all, Melody had a key to her elderly relative's house. At first, Martha Jane kept quiet about her misgivings. But while watching the trial, she got worried about what Melody might have done with her gun. And she called the police.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Chris saw it too, and they both knew it was their father's body, the little that was left.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
And then it was out there for the whole world to know. Martha Jane's suspicion that Melody had taken the .38 and used it to kill Gary. This is called a Perry Mason moment. Late in the trial, suddenly a call. And you call a new witness. A surprise witness. And look at what that witness has to say.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Defense attorneys Michael Ray and John Luke Weaver tried to dismiss Martha Jane's claims, saying the devoutly Christian woman only came forward once she learned about her stepson Rusty's affair with Melody.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Still, the defense argued there was no proof the .38 in question was the gun used in the murder, or that Melody ever took anything from Martha Jane's house.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
And then the defense put on a little show-and-tell. A play, as it were. to show that it would have been impossible for Melody to get Big Daddy's body out of the house and way off to that burn pile. Whose idea was it to drag those bags of rock salt or whatever the heck that was out onto the courtroom floor?
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A Little Patch of Perfect
You were literally pointed at by the defense attorney in court. What did it feel like?
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A Little Patch of Perfect
By then, the law was on its way to look and poke around and ask awkward questions. How did Gary Ferris end up in his own burn pile? And why, of course.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
It might have been easier if that fire hadn't consumed Gary Ferris' body, or if they'd found the gun, or more DNA. But they had what they had, and six and a half years after Gary's murder, jurors were having a hard time. Cheryl Peoples was one of them.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Jurors sent notes asking for more details. And they kept talking for almost three days. And then they sent the judge another note. They just couldn't decide. They were hung. What was that like?
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A Little Patch of Perfect
But the judge sent them back. Keep trying, he said. Chris Hyatt, the jury foreman, did his best.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
How are you feeling as you came back into the room with a verdict?
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Melody Ferris was guilty of murdering her husband, Gary. Where did your thoughts go at that point?
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Oh, yes. The sentencing. A sentencing that was one to remember. It happened about a month after the verdict. And Melody, first time in the trial, decided there was something she wanted to say. Boy, did she ever.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
There's an old expression, no secrets in a murder investigation. Not for long, anyway.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
You could, as the old saying goes, hear a pin drop. What was coming?
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Scott himself looked stunned as his mother went on for more than 20 minutes. The judge warned her to stop when she trotted out new allegations never presented in court. But as she pressed on, Scott Ferris could only shake his head.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
I think the expression on your face said a thing or two. You didn't have to open your mouth.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
As she was finally wrapping up, Melody pleaded with the judge. Throw out the verdict. Too late. He gave her life. Parole possible after 30 years. She'll be in her 90s by then. And now? Now they'll just have to get used to it. Though Big Daddy's outsized presence is everywhere around here.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
It's hard to imagine how the family will recover. The Ferris wheel has spun off its axis. But then, maybe it did a long time ago. No matter how hard Big Daddy tried to keep it rolling,
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Crazy scary thing secrets, aren't they? This is called a Perry Mason moment. Late in the trial, a surprise witness.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
It wasn't easy to be a Ferris that 5th of July. Imagine, finding your father's charred skull in a pile of ashes.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
It's almost like an Agatha Christie story. You've got a confined space and all those people are warring amongst themselves.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
And when they saw the place, well, yes, freak accidents happen to rich people too.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
job to do, though. First, know your victim. Detective Hayes asked the family about Big Daddy. Would you say he was larger than life in every way?
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Gary John and their two sisters were raised in a middle-class home in Alabama.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Sister Sherry was seven years younger than her gentle giant of a brother.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
He had to be driven, because life threw Gary Ferris a little curveball in the form of a pretty young thing named Melody. Still teenagers when they met.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Melody stayed home to raise their son, Chris. Gary worked nights to support his family and put himself through law school. And the kids kept coming after Chris, Scott, Emily, Amanda, while Gary rose fast in the legal world.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Gary's firm asked him to open an Atlanta office and then made him managing partner. So in 2013, he could afford to buy that farm Melody had always wanted out near Alpharetta. And now, just like that, he was gone. When John and his sister Sherry got the news, they felt compelled to get in the car and drive from Alabama to Georgia. Because we thought, we need to be there.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
The lead investigator, still trying to find out more about Gary, talked to Melody, his wife of 39 years.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
One thing Melody did know was that her workaholic husband was not taking care of himself.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Made sense then. Some sort of health incident made him fall down into the fire? Except the ash heap itself had a story to tell, too. Almost his whole body was consumed in the fire. Ashley Pope was another sheriff's detective at the time.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
So, investigators thought maybe someone had thrown Gary right into the middle of the fire. And then, just as they were mulling that over, another startling discovery.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
A bullet lodged in Gary's rib cage. Well, that did not seem accidental. How did that change the course of your investigating at that point?
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Gary Ferris had been murdered. It wasn't the smoking or the mountain dews or the lack of exercise. Something else had caught up with Gary. Or someone else. But the list of potential suspects, like the crime scene itself, was sprawling because investigators would learn that even those closest to Gary might have had a motive to want him dead.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Gary Ferris was a man who lived large, from his marbles to his mountain dew to the money he made, money which he loved to give away. The Big Daddy nickname covered not just his height and girth, but also his deep-pocketed generosity, spreading green to every leaf on the family tree.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
If someone needed a loan or, more likely, a gift to get them through a rough patch, Gary was there with a check or a swipe from a credit card. Now this family's Santa Claus was dead, shot to death, and then cremated on a funeral pyre he himself had built.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
It was the July 4th holiday when the confusion started. The who's where and when's he coming back kind of confusion. They had plans, after all. Here, at this place, this idyllic symbol of their success. A ten-acre estate near Alpharetta, Georgia. A little patch of perfect on the northernmost edge of Atlanta's suburban sprawl. This was their lifetime dream come true.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
And they're all looking at you. They're all staring at you, wondering what you're going to say.
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A Little Patch of Perfect
Murder. That word changed everything. Detective Hayes asked Melody to join him at the sheriff's office. He would break the news to her there.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Tonight on Dateline. You've been known as the doomsday mom.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And that's exactly what the mental evaluation found.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
But Charles seemed to know better. And at the end of June 2019, he sent an email to someone you'll hear a lot more about. Tammy Daybell, Chad's wife of nearly 30 years and the mother of his five children. It read in part, Tammy, my name is Charles Vallow. I have some vital and disturbing information regarding your husband and my wife, Lori.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Here's Nate Eaton of East Idaho News and an NBC News consultant.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And so Charles received no answer. He was alone and frightened, perhaps, when he told those officers she was calling him a demon with a strange name.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
It wasn't Nick, of course, but Ned Schneider. But what did it mean? What were Chad and Lori up to? We asked her, and here's what happened.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Well, that's what he told the police, that you told him he was somebody named Ned Schneider.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Yes, yes. He's on tape saying that to the police. He was terrified that you were going to kill him.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
That's what we're here to talk about. No, Lori wouldn't talk about Charles as Ned Schneider. But of course, she knew we had her text messages to her brother, Alex Cox, referencing Lori's belief that she could not move through portals to the spirit world while Charles was alive. Apparently, it is tied to Ned being gone, hopefully today or tomorrow.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Alex responded, "'Have fun and get rid of Ned already.'" And that, said the police, seemed to be exactly what happened. Because on July 10th, 2019, Alex spent the night at Lori's place. And the next morning, after Charles showed up at the house... Subject that's been shot... The police in Chandler, Arizona, were wearing body cams when they responded to the 911 call at Lori's house.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And here they encountered Alex in the front yard.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Inside, Charles, age 62, was lying dead on the living room floor. Alex claimed the shooting was in self-defense. And as you can see, he kept touching the back of his head, where he claimed Charles had hit him with a baseball bat. Another tall tale? Investigators have watched the tape frame by frame, of course, since it happened. The lead investigator up in Idaho, Ron Ball, spoke for most.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Hello, come on in. And yes, I felt a moral twinge. Hi. This would get her some attention. Apparently they have to stay on. They do? Go figure.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
The rest of what happened was also hard to believe. Though Laurie was inside the house and certainly heard the gunshots that killed Charles, she promptly left and took JJ to Burger King for breakfast and then dropped him off at school before returning to find the police at her house, where she behaved not at all like a shocked widow. How long have you lived here?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Alex, Lori, and Tylee were all taken downtown to give statements and largely told the same story, that it was self-defense, no charges were filed. And then, just days later, Lori called the insurance company about Charles' million-dollar life insurance policy.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Um, not exactly. Lori was informed that the beneficiary was in fact not her at all.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
news that Lori had to break to Chad. She texted him, quote, So I talked to the insurance company. He changed it in March. So it was probably Ned before we got rid of him. It's a spear through my heart. There it was. We got rid of him, meaning Charles, and upset that his death by gunshot did not produce an insurance payout. So what would Lori Vallow say about all this?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
But in the late summer of 2019, Charles Vallow dead and gone, nobody was keeping track of Lori when she suddenly picked up Tylee and JJ and they moved to Rexburg, Idaho, so close now to Chad and the unsuspecting Tammy Daybell.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
But perhaps half a decade after the events that put her here, she would finally tell us why. See ya. Why her children are dead? And her ex-husband and her lover's wife? Why all that death and mayhem? But Lori Vallow, as I was about to discover, had her own unique way of dealing with nosy interrogators. You're the most hated mom in America, right?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Which one is the real Lori? Charles Vela worried about her sanity. Her trial for the murders of J.J., Tylee, and Tammy was delayed for months while she was treated for religious delusions. Now, in Arizona, she's her own lawyer and is either serious or not about this. Does Jesus visit you often here?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
We were well down the rabbit hole now that she dodged combatively from one distracting diversion to another. Almost like a character in Alice in Wonderland. I am a talker, so... Was this the real Laurie? Or is she playing a character? I'm playing me too, or trying to.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
By early September 2019, two months after the shooting death of Charles Vallow and Phoenix, one thing was obvious. The characters in this drama were settling into their roles.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Chad Daybell was the prophet, the leader of the group, the man one investigator described as an unattractive, unsuccessful author, transformed into the keeper of the gates of heaven, foretelling the imminent end of the world and dictating with the wave of his hand the worthy and the damned. And Lori Vallow? Well, she played a sort of nymph, a divine partner for all time,
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
A heavenly honeypot, if you will. Former FBI supervisory special agent Doug Hart worked the case from the start and knows as much about Chad and Lori as just about anyone. There's kind of a mutual manipulation that these two had going, right?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
But moths and flames can't forever exist 900 miles apart. So, seven weeks after Charles' death, Laurie packed up her kids, JJ and Tylee, and moved them to Rexburg, Idaho, or as she called it, Zion, to an apartment about ten minutes from the rural property where Chad happened to live with his wife, Tammy. And we should add, there was another migrant to Zion, Laurie's brother, Alex Cox.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
His character has been described as Laurie's angel of death.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Such a supposedly funny, mild-mannered man, according to people who had met him in other contexts, and yet there he was.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Here in our jailhouse chat, we did get one confirmation at least, the obvious one that, yes, they had moved to Idaho because Chad was there, and that was where the righteous would gather before the end times. But something else had happened too. Revealed by text messages and a friend's eyewitness account, Chad had declared that Lori's daughter, Tylee, had turned dark.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And dark, in those days, seemed to have a way of foreshadowing death. But as she told her story, Lori fixed on a theme she pursued throughout our talk. Tylee, she said, was sick and in pain due to what she called persistent pancreatitis.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
But just a week after they arrived, on Tuesday, September 8th, the family, Lori, Tylee, JJ, and Alex, went to Yellowstone National Park, about a 90-minute drive from Rexburg.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
These are the last images ever taken of Tylee. As for little JJ, less than a week later on September 14th, Lori and JJ went on an outing to a wildlife park called Bear World. And a few days after that, Lori's friend Melanie Gibb went to Idaho, where Lori had some shocking news. JJ had just become a zombie.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
September 22nd, the very last photo of JJ, ready for bed, in his red pajamas. That night, according to Lori's visitors, JJ was acting up. Melanie Gibbs' husband, David Warwick, saw Alex take JJ outside.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
By morning, J.J. was gone and never seen again. And just one week later... There is some crazy stuff that happened.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
It wasn't over yet. One thing everyone who's met Lori Vallow knows, the woman loves attention. And she is certainly getting it from all over the world.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Tragic dominoes? Or maybe, as investigators could see as they collected evidence, something far more intentional. Just three weeks after Tylee was last seen alive, and a week after JJ's disappearance, a frightened man called 911 in the Phoenix suburb of Gilbert, Arizona.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
The voice on the line belonged to this man, Brandon Boudreau. At the time, he was going through a nasty custody fight with his wife, Melanie Boudreau, the niece of Lori Vallow and her brother, Alex Cox. The police arrived quickly, captured the scene on body cam, and released this blurred video.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Brandon told the officers that the Jeep's back window opened. Somebody hunkered down where the Jeep's back seat should have been, stuck out a rifle where the missing spare tire should have been, and a bullet whizzed by Brandon's ear shattered the window of his car.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Misunderstood how? I mean, how did they get you wrong? In every way.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And then, he said, the shooter took off. The Jeep was green or gray, said Brandon later, and had Texas plates. And what do you know, it didn't take long for police to identify it. The Jeep belonged to Tylee. Her now-deceased stepfather, Charles Vallow, bought it for her. And the guy driving the Jeep? Later, Brandon told the police it looked like Lori's brother.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Remember, Alex had already killed his sister's husband, Charles, so was he trying to shoot his niece's estranged husband, too?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
A lot of crazy in Brandon's life. His wife had run off to join Laurie and Chad and Alex up in Rexburg before launching a custody battle for the couple's four children. And as text messages have since revealed, Brandon was very much out of favor with Chad and Laurie, who were condemning him as a gadianton, a criminal in Mormon lore.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And then, weeks after a quick divorce, Melanie married a guy she had just met, named Ian. So what would Melanie and her new partner Ian tell us about the attempt on Brandon's life? They sat with us in the spring of 2020. Did you ask Alex if he tried to shoot Brandon?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
That was hardly a surprise, but investigators thought this might be a pertinent point about Brandon and the attempt on his life. Charles' death hadn't paid off in insurance money the way it appeared Chad and Lori hoped it would, which probably meant they needed cash. And Brandon?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
You remember the case, right? Who can forget it? Hey, Chad and Lori, it's Dateline. How are you? You guys heading out today?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And then there was also this fascinating piece of evidence. On the day of the shooting, here was Lori on surveillance video at her rented storage unit. joined by the still very married Chad Daybell. Here, police watched them bring in a tire, just like the one that was missing from Tylee's Jeep when Brandon was shot at.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And then they lugged in a folded back seat, which would have created space in the back of the Jeep for a shooter. On the way out, Chad gave Lori a hand in a more intimate sort of way. And then the day after the shooting, Alex showed up at the same storage unit in Idaho, and as you can see, he carried out the tire Chad had put in the day before, and then also carried out the folded back seat.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And meanwhile, two days after the attempt on Brandon's life, as then-FBI agent Doug Hart learned when he combed through text messages, Lori was getting antsy. She and Chad had planned a real date, but had to cancel because... I mean, you've been to Rexburg.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Tammy wouldn't like that. Then, the very next day...
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
We began our coverage just over five years ago on the island of Kauai, where in January 2020, we found Lori and her fifth husband, Chad Daybell. Just the two of them, seemingly on holiday, without a care in the world. Where are your kids? Except... There's a lot of people who are worried about your kids. Yes, except... Are you guys worried about them?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Something would have to be done. Oh, and it would be.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
As Lori sat and explained, it all seemed so benign, as if she were in a temple wearing robes instead of bright orange and blue handcuffs in a high-security jail. I'd almost forget what she was here for. Things like this. On October 9th, 2019, one week after police suspected Lori's brother Alex Cox tried to kill her nephew in suburban Phoenix.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And three months after Alex did kill Lori's husband, Charles.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
A 911 call came in to an Idaho sheriff's office.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Tammy Daybell. Calling on a cold autumn night to report that when she returned late that evening from a church event, a man with a gun confronted her outside the home she shared with Chad Daybell.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Who was that masked man? The FBI ran a cell phone geolocation search, which revealed that Alex was near, and then his phone was shut off just at the time of the attempted shooting. It was months later when Detective Ball sifted through Alex's digital trail and concluded that what Tammy Daybell thought was a paintball gun was not that at all.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
That paintball gun incident, what was that really in your mind?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And after the failed attempt, said investigators, Alex went on an internet search for AR-15 cold weather operation. So was it the cold weather that saved Tammy Daybell that time? Maybe. Added to this, Tammy didn't park in her usual spot.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And she may have heard, like, some sort of semi-pop and thought it was paintball.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
So, plan A having failed, apparently it was time for plan B. Ten days later.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Chad and his son called to report that Tammy had died in her sleep.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
That this was just months after Lori's children... 16-year-old Tylee and 7-year-old JJ had simply vanished from their home in Idaho, vanished from the face of the earth. And by then, police had learned about other suspicious deaths in Chad and Lori's inner circle.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Later that morning, Chad notified Tammy's sister, Sam.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Tammy was buried without delay in her hometown in Utah. There was no autopsy. Chad's choice, the sheriff said, because back then it just didn't seem suspicious. It was later when the story began to emerge that they exhumed Tammy's body. And the ME found bruises on her arms as if she were held down. And the cause of death was asphyxiation. Just what lead investigator Ball suspected.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And when looking for suspects, once again, detectives did not have to look far. When Tammy did die, did the evidence show that Alex was there?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Children, spouses, God. So tell me what happened to Tylee and JJ. Did you kill them?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Later at Chad's trial, experts testified it would have been difficult for one person to complete the task. That is, difficult for Alex without Chad's help. But sitting here with me, Lori simply dismissed all that. No foul play at all, she said. Perfectly innocent.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Yes, and nowadays? Tammy comes to visit her in jail, said Laurie. Anyway, the funerals weren't over.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
We had raised the subject of love in our conversation with convicted killer Lori Vallow. Because... Well, people do lie about love and death and what happened when. But what's the title of that old song? Facts Don't? So, facts are what we spoke of now. Our questions took us back to November 5th, 2019, exactly 17 days after Chad Daybell's wife Tammy was murdered in her own bed.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Chad's wife, Tammy, found dead one autumn morning in Idaho, just a couple of weeks before Chad married Lori. Also recently dead, Lori's fourth husband, Charles Vallow. Charles had been shot to death by Lori's brother, Alex Cox.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
There was a wedding there. 3,000 miles away from Idaho, on the island of Kauai. The happy couple? Who else? Chad and Lori, now Daybell. What was the relationship with Chad all about, anyway?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Sure. And everybody calls you Lori Vallow. Does that bother you?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
it was often difficult to keep Laurie on point. But on this subject, the wedding and preparations for it, she seemed willing to talk specifics. We had to ask because, again, facts. The evidence clearly shows that Laurie searched for wedding dresses and rings and then bought a Malachite gemstone ring on October 2nd, 2019. The ring was delivered to her five days later, October 7th.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
But there was a hitch. At the time, Chad's wife Tammy was as alive as a person can be and quite unaware of the fate that awaited her. She was murdered on October 19th, two weeks after Lori's wedding ring was delivered. In journalistic terms, this would be called a gotcha. And you bought the wedding rings before.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
It's online. The purchase is there. And then we see the video of those very rings on your fingers in that ceremony on the beach.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
You're going to tell me who they were bought for.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
That's Lori's brother, Alex Cox, and the woman he would later marry, Zulema Pastinas. Lori's version? After buying the rings and dress for Zulema, Lori and Chad borrowed them.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
The problem with that story? Well, investigators have many. First, former FBI Supervisory Special Agent Doug Hart, who examined tens of thousands of items from Lori's electronic devices.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
So anyway, Chad and Lori, happy honeymooners after their island wedding and also $430,000 richer thanks to life insurance policies that paid upon Tammy's death. returned to Lori's apartment in Rexburg, Idaho, where, as it just so happened, police detective Ray Hermosillo had just received a call from Gilbert, Arizona. Detectives there were investigating an attempted murder.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Remember? That shot was fired from a Jeep at Brandon Boudreau, the estranged husband of Lori's niece. And the Jeep, detectives discovered, was registered to Charles Vallow, whose widow Lori, records revealed, had moved from Arizona to Rexburg.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And then not far away, in another Phoenix suburb.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
The place was Lori's apartment complex, where she and Chad and Alex and Lori's niece Melanie, a.k.a. Brandon's estranged wife, had all set up shop. While keeping watch, Detective Hermosillo read in on Alex Cox. who was suspected of trying to kill Brandon and who, a few months earlier, did kill Laurie's fourth husband, Charles Vallow. So, what are you thinking about him at this point?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
He's kind of a dangerous dude, right? At the same time, Hermosillo and his lieutenant, Ron Ball, started hearing even more chatter about Chad and Laurie. Like how Chad's first wife, Tammy, had suddenly died just a few weeks before. The common denominator in this whole thing is Lori.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And it was at this point, when police from Arizona traveled to Idaho to seize that Jeep, that investigators started to focus on the question, where are the children?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
A 911 call from the estranged husband of Lori's niece. It appeared to him someone was trying to kill him.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
JJ, as in JJ Vallow, Lori's seven-year-old autistic adopted son who, along with his sister Tylee, at this point had not been seen for weeks.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
So on November 26, 2019, the detective did just that.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
What were they doing, just hanging outside the back door?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
So, well, you get the picture. I'm getting shot at, so I drove straight.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
The detective asked for Lori's phone number. Alex said he didn't have it. Come on.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And the two people at the center of all these strange goings-on, the missing kids, the dead husband, the dead wife, the driveway shooting, claim to be leaders of the gathering of the 144,000 chosen people, who, according to their own unique reading of the Book of Revelations, would amass in a spot in southeastern Idaho, near the town of Rexburg, to greet the second coming of Christ.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Perhaps few detectives in the history of law enforcement have ever been more right. Something was up, indeed. The looming collapse of Chad and Lori's house of cards.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
But I want to hear the truth about all kinds of things. Time and again during our interview, Lori assured us that while others lie about her, she was telling us the absolute truth.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Of course, it would have been easier to believe that were it not for all the lies she has told before. Like, well, for example, this body cam video of very poor quality showing then-Detective Ron Ball and a colleague approaching Lori's apartment in Rexburg. This was just minutes after Detective Hermosillo had that strange encounter with Alex and Chad in the alley.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
This time, Lori answered the door and, as if she had a choice, welcomed detectives inside. Sort of. From the start, Lori lied like a sidewalk when faced with questions about her seven-year-old adopted son. JJ was not, of course, with a friend. More on that in a minute. But as detectives asked more questions, Lori acted as if she had no clue.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
What could possibly be attracting so much attention from law enforcement?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Kill her for life insurance money, she said. Wasn't true, of course. Projection, perhaps? Lori herself, remember, tried to claim Charles's life insurance after Alex killed him. She went on then about why things appeared a bit dodgy.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Lori's brother, Alex, and a friend, Chad Daybell.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Before long, the detectives left. And as soon as they did, Chad and Lori got busy. Calls were made. To Melanie Gibb in Arizona, for one. The friend Lori had just told police JJ was staying with.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Chad Daybell and his new wife, Lori Vallow. In February of 2020, Lori was arrested in Hawaii and flown back to the state where her children had disappeared, Idaho.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
As her head spun, there was a second call.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Was that the moment this all changed for you? The bottom fell off?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Now, the first television interview ever. I'm asking you a question. Did you watch your children die?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Right. At that point, did you think something bad had happened to JJ?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And the next morning, when police showed up again at Lori's apartment to execute a search warrant...
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
You must certainly have hit a nerve with your questions.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
What started as surveillance on a Jeep had certainly taken a turn. The chase was on.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
As Lori Vallow continued to explain the finer points of parenting, it was not lost on us that more than five years ago, she had gone on the run. When detectives asked her one simple question to which every parent of a seven-year-old child should have an answer, where's your child? Where was JJ? For that matter, where was his sister, 16-year-old Tylee?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
When Lori and Chad Daybell disappeared from their apartment in Rexburg, Idaho that day in November 2019 and returned to Hawaii, did they understand how quickly the law would catch up to them? They couldn't have known, really, that within 24 hours, the FBI had been called in. Or that investigators would soon contact her son, Colby.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Where again, she refused to give the police any help at all. And then, four months later...
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Detectives in Idaho entered JJ's name into a database of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Oh, enough to make you think that's where they are.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
But were the children with them? Were they being kept somewhere else? Detective Ray Hermosillo didn't know what to think.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And then, in the middle of all those questions, a brand new shock.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Something happened to Lori's brother, Alex Cox, her angel of death. Something bad. He'd collapsed in an apartment in Gilbert, Arizona. Alex was rushed to a hospital, but it was no good. Later, police interviewed the woman Alex had married just two weeks before, Zulema Pastinas.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
The bodies of the two children, JJ and Tylee, were found in Chad Daybell's backyard. They were charged with murder then. And after many delays... Guilty. The jury sentenced Chad Daybell to death. And Lori?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
It will surprise no one. There was considerable suspicion early on of foul play.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And here is the designated killer... apparently killed or at least dead.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
But when the autopsy was done, the ME concluded that the death of Alex Cox was no crime at all. Alex Cox had been killed by blood clots in his lungs.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Meanwhile, detectives and special agents decided enough was enough. They'd patiently worked the case for eight weeks. It was time to confront Lori and Chad in Hawaii. And it didn't take long for law enforcement to find them. Here they were, sitting by their hotel pool on a warm, sunny day in January 2020. Excuse me, sir.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
What they gave her was a court order demanding she produce JJ and Tylee within five days. The next day, the police pulled them over, searched their car, seized their car, and thus forced them to walk a gauntlet of reporters back to their hotel. Reporters including our NBC News consultant, Nate Eaton.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
But four weeks later, Lori still hadn't produced the children, and so she was arrested and flown back to Idaho.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Her first court appearance filled the room, the hallways, the streets outside with the curious citizens of Rexburg. But she still wouldn't answer the question, where are those kids?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Indeed, they were. Hundreds of agents and officers had been working the case in multiple states for months, combing through every electronic device ever attached to Lori, Chad, Alex, and the others.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And in the end, the search for the children would come down to one unlikely text message containing one odd word.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Of course, yes. As I listened patiently to Lori Vallow's long and winding discourse about her daughter Tylee, My mind kept going to those strange days in the spring of 2020 when details emerged about the search for Tylee and JJ. Over the previous six months, thousands of man hours had gone into the investigation.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Searches of Google, Amazon, Facebook accounts, phone calls, text messages, geolocations for Lori, Chad, and Alex.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And all that work painted a picture confirming the September 8th, 2019 trip to Yellowstone and revealing that Tylee must have been killed when they returned home that very night.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And then a sharp-eyed FBI analyst found the text that broke the case. It was sent later that same morning, 10.53 a.m., from Chad to his wife Tammy. It read, quote, Well, I've had an interesting morning. I felt I should burn all of the limb debris by the fire pit before it got too soaked by the coming storms. Well, I did so. I spotted a big raccoon along the fence. I hurried and got my gun.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And he was still walking along. I got close enough that one shot did the trick. He is now in our pet cemetery. Fun times. End quote.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
when, in fact, investigators felt sure they'd been burning and burying Tylee.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
The date was June 9th, 2020, nine months since the kids disappeared. Ron Ball, Ray Hermosillo, and their teams drove out to Chad's property, a nearly four-acre lot a few miles from Rexburg. They woke up Chad and served him with a search warrant.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And the murder of her own fourth husband, Charles. Got all that?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Chad was right to be worried. The FBI's evidence response team zeroed in on two places where Alex's cell phone spent time, hours after Tylee and JJ disappeared. Under a tree, searchers soon found ground that had clearly been disturbed.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Evidence texts removed a layer of white rocks.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
That whole experience had to be just, I mean, that lives with you even now, doesn't it? Absolutely. Absolutely. It was, of course, the body of seven-year-old JJ Vallow, still dressed in the red pajamas he was last seen in, a plastic bag over his head, duct tape over his mouth. The M.E. said he'd been asphyxiated.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
They found Tylee 25 or 30 yards away. It was Tylee who was burned. Her body dismembered. Chad, who'd been watching all this, suddenly got in his car, started driving away.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Oh, I know that. Are you keeping track? I'm keeping track of that. So combative is how she was going to be. Practicing, perhaps? She is representing herself in court now. And she made the decision to meet me for an on-camera interview because she had been telling us she wanted to tell the truth.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
You're right. They put Chad and Lori in separate jails and gave them separate trials. Chad for three counts of murder, for killing Tammy, JJ, and Tylee, and for several counts of conspiracy to murder and insurance fraud. Lori faced two counts of first-degree murder, JJ and Tylee, conspiracy to murder Tammy, and grand theft. Madison County Prosecuting Attorney Rob Wood.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Both Chad and Lori were convicted on all counts.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Guilty. How involved do you think Lori was in the deaths of her own children?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Before her sentencing to life imprisonment, she said something rather curious.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
What on earth was she talking about? Her surviving son wanted to know. And so did we. When we met with Lori Vallow Daybell in jail, we were given 90 minutes to speak to her. 90 minutes, no more. She seemed determined to fill the time with tales about Tylee.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
She claimed that giving birth to Tylee actually killed her, briefly, sent them both straight to heaven, before Jesus asked her to return to life on earth.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Meanwhile, Lori dodged questions about the wreckage in her own life. We have Tylee.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
We have Chad's wife. We have the attempted murder on Brandon. We have, you know, there's a lot of mayhem.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
I do, I do, I do. But I just, I don't have all week to hear all these explanations.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Uh-huh. I don't know. That, the sheriff's office told us, was not a possibility. This visit with Lori, they said, was a one-time thing. It turned out, by the way, that we weren't the only ones searching for answers from Lori. And perhaps no one on earth has been more affected by her crimes than this man, her son, Colby.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Ah, well, we'll get to that, won't we? Oh, yes. We'll get to lots of things. To Jesus in a jail cell.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
In the past half decade, Colby has lost his brother, his sister, his stepfather Charles, the most stable male figure in his life, his uncle Alex, and of course, his imprisoned mother. How did it change the way you view the world?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
You know, there's a microscope on your life too. Yeah. Do you get the feeling of being watched as you progress through life?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And so in the past year, Golby has decided to use his YouTube channel, he calls it Scar Wars, to help with his own healing. And then a few months ago, Golby, who hadn't spoken to his mom in more than four years, began to worry about this.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
The tall tales you know just can't be true.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And so five months ago, Lori called Colby from jail and it gave him the chance to ask her how Tylee and JJ really died.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
But then, Lori spun a story which investigators have told us simply could not have happened based on the evidence. It was evening, she told Colby, and she asked Tylee to put JJ to bed.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Her implication was perfectly obvious. Tylee smothered JJ, saw he was dead, and then took her own life in a fit of remorse. It was hours later, said Lori, when she walked in and found their two bodies. Quite a story. Colby was not having it.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
To the bizarre claim Lori laid on the son who lived to tell the story. Did you believe any of that stuff? To the investigators who speak out for the first time and reveal how they cornered Lori and found those missing children.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Someone else could only mean Alex and or Chad. And somehow it's all Tylee's fault.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And so Colby made the decision to tell his mom his truth.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
If she would ever tell anybody the truth, you'd think it would be you. That's what she said. She is calculated. You did not kill a soul.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And after, Colby spoke directly to his viewers. My sister did not kill my brother.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Did she understand what she was doing to her only surviving son? Would she finally face up to what she did to the others? Were you there the night that Tylee died? Were you there the night that JJ died?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
to a story that got weird the moment Chad laid eyes on Lori.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
As we neared the end of our jailhouse interview with Lori Vallow, I was struck by the contrast.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Son Colby, reflective, anguished, a serious man.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Lori danced. Verbally, that is, danced away from questions she seemed determined to avoid. She tried to fill our allotted 90 minutes with a long and rambling story about Tylee, clearly leading up to the same one she told son, Colby, where we tried to finally pin her down on the established facts that had convicted her of multiple counts of murder.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Eternities. The question hung in the air during our sometimes strange jailhouse conversation. Did for me, at least.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Why did Chad label your children dark and then, you know, call them zombies? You're saying that didn't happen?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Oh, I see. I see. But that would be a pattern, that he would label people dark, and then they would either die or somebody would have an attempt on their life.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
The evidence shows that Tylee was killed the night they returned from Yellowstone, September 8th, 2019. And JJ was killed 14 days later.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
No, I'm just looking at you. The evidence presented at Lori's Idaho murder trial left her jury in no doubt whatsoever. I'm quoting what the court said about you and Chad. Go ahead and quote it. That you actually conspired to kill these people.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
All right, fine. Were you there the night... The Tylee died. Were you there the night the JJ died?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Was Alex in these places when they died? In the place where they died, were you there?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
It doesn't matter. I'm not pretending I know. I'm asking you a question. Did you watch your children die?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
It's a terrible question, and it's one I hate to have to ask, but, I mean, we've been talking about all of these... I was not there, as you know.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
His response, remember? Did you believe any of that stuff? Absolutely not. But for Laurie, it's as if the evidence, the trial, the conviction, don't exist at all. You did not kill a soul.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
You didn't participate in killing a soul. No. You didn't conspire to kill a soul.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
You didn't do any of those things you've been convicted of doing.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
What to make of Laurie? Soon she will have to enter a whole new world. Not heaven, but her upcoming trial.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
All right. She will be representing herself as she has tried for the murder of her husband, Charles. She's pleaded not guilty and not guilty of conspiring to murder her nephew, Brandon. What's it like acting as your own lawyer?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
It will certainly give her a bigger slice of the limelight she seems to crave. And, she assured me, will get her ever closer to the final result she fully expects. She and Chad will go free. Chad was convicted and he's on death row now.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
How could you possibly think that Chad would be exonerated after what happened?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Her own little world? Something like that. Outside in the real world, her only surviving son works hard to build a good life. In spite of all of it.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Was the meeting that launched all this the result of pure chance? Or was it what Lori Vallow always wanted? She was born into a large Mormon family in Southern California in 1973 and was a charmer from the very start, but was unlucky in love. Three husbands by the age of 28 had a young son named Colby who, as a boy, adored his hairdresser mom.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Well, his mother dances and dodges his questions and ours. And you're very good at dancing.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
I've already done a mental jig with your stories.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Apparently it's up, yep. Lori Vallow Daybell went back to her cell.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And oh, Lori loved the spotlight. Competed on the TV game show Wheel of Fortune. How's the hair in Austin?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Probably thanks to you. And even in the Mrs. Texas pageant in 2004, during which she offered what now sounds like prophecy.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
But aside from that, she was a neighborhood fun mom.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
By 2006, she'd had a second child, a girl named Tylee. Divorced Tylee's father and married her fourth husband, Charles Vallow.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And in 2014, Lori and Charles adopted Charles' great nephew, little boy named JJ, who was autistic.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
And so it went. Until 2018, when Lori went to a get-together at her church in Phoenix to hear an end-time speaker named Melanie Gibb.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Like Lori, Melanie was drawn to a particular end-times theology that their Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints considered too extreme. And as of that day, they became fast friends.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
So Melanie listened to Lori's stories about her husband, Charles Vallow, and three kids. By then, Colby was 22, Tylee 16, and JJ was six. Melanie got the impression that her new friend was struggling.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
So when Melanie Gibbs suggested a road trip to attend a religious conference in St. George, Utah, Lori didn't need much persuading.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
To write a novel, but when you're... And once there, Melanie discovered that Chad Daybell, a man she knew, was one of the speakers. Chad was an author of end-times-themed fiction, claimed to have had near-death experiences that allowed him to see the spirit world, see the past, the future. Laurie and Melanie went to hear him speak. And after, Laurie met Chad. She was 45 then, he 50.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Do you remember the first meeting with Chad?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
But now, years after that meeting and all the trouble that followed it, sitting here talking to me in jail, maybe Laurie would finally recognize a more normal reality?
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Soon, Chad appeared on a podcast with Lori and Melanie. And then, just three weeks after he met Lori, Chad traveled from his home in Idaho to Arizona for a religious meeting at Lori's house. Well, Lori's husband, Charles, was out of town. Did you see evidence that she and Chad were falling in love?
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Lori's reason? She and Chad, she told Melanie, were exalted, godlike, no divorce for deities. Something we asked Lori about, or tried to. So when Chad came along and, you know, said you're a goddess and you've lived for, you know, since the beginning of time, and so is he.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
No, I'm saying. Did you hear Chad say that to me? I'm just trying to remember.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Well, will it be? Was it ever? With Chad in the picture, said Melanie Gibb, Laurie began saying some strange and disturbing things about husband Charles.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
So what, he'd become a demon or something?
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Poor Charles had no idea about any of this, of course, until, well, apparently until Lori told him. Because a couple of weeks after that phone call, at the end of January 2019, Charles called the police.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Now, as I look back at this scene, I cannot help but wonder... The one in orange, I need hardly tell you, was, perhaps still is, the most infamous woman in America. Lori Vallow. What was she thinking just here? What was her plan? That she had one would seem quite obvious soon enough. But not yet. Not here. As her jailers led her down a bland white hallway in Phoenix, Arizona's Jail for Women.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
After coming home from a trip and finding his truck and his family, gone. I don't know where my kids are.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Charles Vallow felt the ground shifting under his feet. His wife Lori had, in his words to local police, lost it. Ever since she'd met this guy at a religious conference named Chad Daybell, Charles said, she was different.
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Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Charles's anxiety was fully apparent on the body cam video.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview
Her visit was captured on police body cam too. Lori told the police that Charles was the problem, said he had cheated on her, and then flew into a rage when she confronted him.
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Good & Evil
In 2007, Frank Cano pleaded guilty to committing a lewd act on a minor. He was now on parole wearing a GPS monitor. But now, next question. Did Frank Cano's monitor put him near the places those other three women, according to phone records, made their last calls? Kiana, Josephine, and Martha. One by one, the detective edited the coordinates.
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Good & Evil
A rare mystery that needed an urgent answer before the evil struck again. It was March 14th, 2014, early morning. An army of garbage trucks made their growling, clanking way around the thousands of trash bins and dumpsters in Anaheim, California. Their destination, a landfill that is also a literal mountain of garbage, 500 feet high.
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Good & Evil
But something about that man, Frank Cano. He had a buddy, and Lomeli had run into them both.
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Good & Evil
Stephen Gordon. He'd done time for molesting a minor and later for kidnapping. He and Cano were inseparable, apparently. Once again, Detective Lomeli pulled up the GPS coordinates. She checked the place Martha was last seen in Santa Ana and... No Gordon. Not there. But when she checked locations for Kiana and Josephine... Sure enough, there he was. So, why not at the first location?
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Good & Evil
She checked the record and discovered at that particular moment, Gordon wasn't on a GPS monitor, but he was wearing one at the other three places, and so was Cano. The electronics made it absolutely obvious. Here they were, Cano and Gordon driving together up and down Beach Boulevard and all around Santa Ana and Anaheim.
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Good & Evil
Julissa Trapp had prayed for a Hail Mary, but she never expected anything like this.
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Good & Evil
But for all the electronic cross-referencing, the case against Cano and Gordon was purely circumstantial. Detective Trapp could not arrest them, not without more evidence. And that was terrifying. I mean, there were young women who were at real risk here. Yes. And if you waited too long... How would you feel if somebody else was attacked?
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Good & Evil
She set up a surveillance team to watch Cano and Gordon around the clock and got authorizations for wiretaps and pulled cell phone records.
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Good & Evil
The next victim couldn't be far away because Gordon texted Cano, kitty cat later, yes? To which Cano responded, okay. And then a sudden change. Had they spotted the surveillance? As Trapp listened to the wiretap, she heard Gordon talk to Cano about skipping town.
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Good & Evil
Time to move fast. They caught up to Frank Cano as he was boarding a bus. And Steve and Gordon, they found him where he worked, an auto body shop next door to Hardy Windows.
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Good & Evil
Both men were charged with four counts each of first-degree murder and forcible rape.
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Good & Evil
And Detective Trapp prepared to confront a suspected serial killer. Coming up...
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Good & Evil
For six months, Kathy Menzies waited for news about her daughter, Kiana. Still woke up every day, hoping she'd call or text and dreading a knock at the door. Which, in April 2014, is what happened.
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Good & Evil
And then, mid-morning, an attendant separating debris on the conveyor belt saw something. Was that a human foot protruding from the pile of trash? Surely not.
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Good & Evil
No, not good news at all. Anaheim police told her that two men, Frank Cano and Stephen Gordon, were now under arrest for the murder of her daughter and three other young women in Orange County.
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Good & Evil
Detective Julissa Trapp wanted to speak with both men, of course. But Cano lawyered up. So she tried Gordon, still in a wheelchair, after his bike accident.
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Good & Evil
Detective Trapp presented him with photographs. He identified all four women.
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Good & Evil
Each murder went the same way, he said. He and Cano picked them up in his SUV, drove them back to the auto body shop where Gordon worked. They took turns having their way. And then, just as each woman prepared to leave... I strangled her with my hands.
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Good & Evil
Some of the details in that 13-hour interview were almost more than even a seasoned detective could stand to hear.
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Good & Evil
But it wasn't a mannequin, as the responding homicide detective, Julissa Trapp, could plainly see. It was, or had been, a woman. Her body wrapped in a blue plastic tarp.
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Good & Evil
Detective Trapp had kept her word. Now she bought three more rosaries and wondered, could she bring those women home? Gordon had told her all of them had been left in the same dumpster, the contents of which were brought here, Orange County's Brea Olinda Landfill, where, except for DeRay, they all still were in there somewhere.
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Good & Evil
But the bodies had to be 40 feet deep by now. Digging for them would cost millions. They might never be found. And the county couldn't afford that.
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Good & Evil
Kathy Menzies knows, logically, her daughter Kiana must be dead. But how to truly accept it without her body?
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Good & Evil
In an attempt to make sense of it all, Kathy asked Detective Trapp and her partner Bruce Lynn to drive her to the place where the killers had picked up Kiana.
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Good & Evil
About broke her heart to do it. Take this tour of her daughter's last hours.
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Good & Evil
Something about the dead girl got to Detective Trapp. Ending up this way. An anonymous child of God in a garbage dump. So the detective did what she always does. She bought a rosary.
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Good & Evil
Kathy found some peace in that, the knowing, the seeing. But why Kiana's life was taken? So much harder to comprehend.
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Good & Evil
Criminal trials are one way that grieving find answers. And with a confession on tape, the trial of Stephen Gordon looked like a formality. Or so the prosecutor might have hoped. And then the judge made that ruling. Oh, boy.
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Good & Evil
Orange County Deputy D.A. Larry Yellen liked his chances against accused serial killer Stephen Gordon, especially when Gordon decided to act as his own defense attorney. He's very bright. Very bright. Smart enough to know he shouldn't be doing that sort of thing.
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Good & Evil
Expectation can be a dangerous thing. Before the trial even began, Gordon struck the prosecutor's case a major blow. Remember that moment early in his interview when he seemed to reject Detective Trapp's questioning? I can't talk to you.
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Good & Evil
I don't want to talk to anybody. Gordon argued that continuing the interview at that point was a Miranda violation. Even though Detective Trapp had read him his rights at the outset, the judge agreed, ruled that the jury could not see a frame of Gordon's confession.
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Good & Evil
But then Gordon asked for a meeting and sprang another surprise. He wanted Yellen to drop the rape charges. And what would he give you in return?
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Good & Evil
Okay, Mr. Gordon, we're going to start by reading... And so on the eve of trial, Detective Trapp once again sat face to face with Stephen Gordon, and he once again took her through each crime.
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Good & Evil
That was played for the jury. And then, how bizarre was this? Gordon suddenly decided he wanted the jury to hear his first confession, too. which meant that the mothers had to hear every graphic detail of their daughters' murders.
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Good & Evil
Unusual, maybe, that a detective should lean on her profound Catholic faith to help solve crimes. But Julissa Trapp does.
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Good & Evil
For four mothers, a measure of justice. Thank you. Kathy Menzies had sat through the entire trial, as brutal as it was. What has it done to your understanding of human beings?
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Good & Evil
Guilty. In 2022, Frank Cano pleaded guilty to four counts of rape and murder. He was sentenced to life without parole. For Detective Trapp, there was a measure of relief. And finally, she gave those rosaries to four grieving mothers. It's interesting to discover in this line of work that homicide detectives are actually softies.
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Good & Evil
Answers from dark places. We went to the jail where Gordon was kept before his transfer to death row. Here he was, a man who claimed to know the nature of his evil acts. But did he, we wondered. I screwed up. Is screwed up the right expression to use?
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Good & Evil
But then came, sure enough, the excuse. He's worked it out in his head that the parole system is somehow to blame for his crimes. After all, as sex offenders, he and Frank Cano shouldn't have been permitted to be together. That was a parole violation. And the fact that their parole officers didn't prevent that violation, he said, means the state is responsible.
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Good & Evil
What I want to know is, because that's on you, what was going on in your head to make you
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Good & Evil
If she could solve this case, she'd give that rosary to the dead woman's family. But first she had to figure out who she was. From just one identifying mark on her neck, a tattoo. Jodi. Was that her name? Reaching now, Detective Trapp pulled up the Anaheim Police Department's database of tattoos. Yes, they have one. Descriptions of tattoos collected from anyone they encountered.
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Good & Evil
We may never know exactly why Geray was killed, or Martha, or Josephine, or Kiana. But there's one more mystery hiding somewhere in this mountain. The final mystery.
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Good & Evil
And a measure of solidarity to have each other, especially Priscilla and her Linda.
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Good & Evil
their own guardian angel who brought all of them answers. But how, the moms wondered, did two men who were supposed to be under supervision by parole officers, who were being tracked in real time via GPS ankle bracelets, how could they have committed the terrible crimes they were charged with? How could this happen?
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Good & Evil
Because when she first talked to Stephen Gordon, he revealed something she wasn't expecting.
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Good & Evil
Jane Doe. According to Gordon, there was a fifth victim. Did she say where she was from?
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Good & Evil
And so she looked. She combed through missing persons reports. She put up flyers, searched, prayed, and yes, bought another rosary. Why is it so important to give Jane Doe a name?
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Good & Evil
Trash. Detective Trapp is still haunted by trash. A bat keeps bringing her mind back here.
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Good & Evil
Somewhere under here, in addition to Kiana, Josephine, and Martha, there was victim number five. And so Detective Trapp worked her sources until she had a name. It would be reasonable to say, okay, that's her. She's here. Absolutely.
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Good & Evil
And yet, when we first spoke with her, she couldn't quite bring herself to tell yet another mother her suspicions.
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Good & Evil
And then a couple of months later, she let us know she'd called on the fifth mother and delivered the news that Sable Pickett, just 19 years old, crossed paths with Gordon and Cano on the streets of Orange County and did not survive. No charges are pending for her murder, but another family can finally stop wondering. Homicide detectives often tell us they work for the dead,
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Good & Evil
And what do you know? There was a match. But her name was not Jodi. It was Geray. Geray Estep. She was 21 years old.
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Good & Evil
Up here on Landfill Mountain, we understood that a little better. As Detective Julissa Trapp gripped her rosary, the one for Sable, we walked away and gave her time. And our microphone picked up something. Mountains of trash, things we use and cast away. Thank you.
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Good & Evil
Beach Boulevard? Suddenly, Detective Trapp's case took on a whole new complexion.
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Good & Evil
Like Geray's mother, who, records revealed, lived in a tiny town in Oklahoma. That tattoo on Geray's neck... This is Jody. And even before the detective got the words out.
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Good & Evil
Her daughter had been so happy, so charming, outgoing. But then, said Jody, a boyfriend convinced Geray that to please him, she'd have to turn tricks. This is Geray. He just honked, trying to get her attention. John TV, a self-proclaimed video vigilante group in Oklahoma City, caught her on camera. back in 2012. But Jarae left the boyfriend, turned her life around, so Jodi thought.
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Good & Evil
The detective made a promise to that mother. Didn't matter what choices Geray may have made. She, the detective, would work this case as hard as any she ever had.
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Good & Evil
And eventually she found the room where Geray had been staying, in which were $700 in cash and mascara, lipstick, contact lens solution, but nothing whatever to lead her to a suspect. Not here, anyway. From the disposal company, she got a list of the dumpsters those garbage trucks had serviced that morning. And then she and other officers went dumpster diving hundreds of dumpsters.
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Good & Evil
No luck. Waste of time. Then, back on the conveyor belt, an odd thing turned up in the trash collected near Geray's body.
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Good & Evil
It was on a caulking tube, and it matched someone. A window installer who worked for a company called Hardy Windows.
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Good & Evil
Where they found one dumpster no one had checked. The trash company, inadvertent, had left it off the list they gave the police. Detective Trapp looked inside.
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Good & Evil
Bingo. And if not for that lucky fingerprint, they'd have missed it. What was that like? Ha!
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Good & Evil
So, DeRay was dumped here sometime before the morning of March 14th, miles and miles from the spot where, according to cell phone records, she placed her very last outgoing call at 7 p.m. the night before. How far away would it have been?
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Good & Evil
But that's all the detective knew. A week gone by. Everyone at Hardy Windows was cleared, so no suspects at all. Detective Trapp went to church, said her rosary, worried, prayed, and wondered.
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Good & Evil
How do you measure a mother's love or gauge the ferocity of her impulse to protect?
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Good & Evil
Detective Julissa Trapp couldn't sleep, kept awake by the puzzle of the girl someone threw away in the trash. That's when something jogged her restless mind. Hadn't some young women vanished in the town next door, Santa Ana?
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Good & Evil
So she looked them up and learned about Kiana Jackson, just 20 years old when she disappeared five months before Geray's death. Her mom is Kathy Menzies.
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Good & Evil
Just look at her childhood photos. That silly grin. She loved her dog, her little brother, playing softball. And then it started happening, said Kathy. Eighth grade or so.
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Good & Evil
After high school, Keanu went to college about a three-hour drive from home. A year later, she moved to Las Vegas. But though far from home now, she got closer and closer to her mom.
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Good & Evil
No idea. Even in October 2013, when Kiana called to say... She was on the bus towards Santa Ana.
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Good & Evil
Gone. Not a peep to her mom, to her friends, to her boyfriend. Kathy went to the police.
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Good & Evil
Yeah. So Kathy started doing her own digging, tracked her daughter down to a motel in Orange County, where the trail ended. Her clothes were there, but she wasn't. Again, she called the police.
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Good & Evil
But then the truth came crashing down, undeniable. Kiana had missed a scheduled court date in Santa Ana for a prostitution charge.
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Good & Evil
It's been going on all that time and you didn't know. Heartbreaking. When she heard Kathy's story, Detective Trapp began to think she was on to something. And then she discovered that just two and a half weeks after Kiana disappeared, there was another one, Josephine Monique Vargas.
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Good & Evil
Josephine's mother, Priscilla, had been on the local news searching for answers for months, ever since her daughter left a family barbecue telling them she was walking to buy groceries.
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Good & Evil
I don't understand the four mothers you'll meet tonight and their connection, one that not one of them would ever have thought possible, not in a million years, any more than they would have expected to meet her, their guardian angel.
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Good & Evil
And it was pure chance when Priscilla ran into another mother desperate to find her daughter, Martha, 28 years old and a mother herself, who just vanished one day.
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Good & Evil
So Martha's mother, Helinda, and Priscilla went together up and down the boulevard.
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Good & Evil
But no sign of their daughters anywhere. Detective Trapp collected their portraits, hung them on her office wall, And she stayed awake and prayed in her Catholic way. Do you ever wonder why God would allow this to happen?
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Good & Evil
No getting around it. The pieces pointed to a chilling conclusion. Those three missing women, just like Geray, may have been murdered. And if that was true, it would mean there was a serial killer out there in the night. Had to be. More deaths would be coming. Unless... One idea. It was grasping at straws, yes.
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Good & Evil
The autopsy came in. The one for Jarae Estep, the girl on the conveyor belt. It's bad. It was bad.
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Good & Evil
Strangled, beaten, sexually assaulted viciously, according to Deputy D.A. Larry Yellen.
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Good & Evil
That is, the computer database of sex offenders. If they had a serial killer on their hands, there was at least a chance he'd already run afoul of the law at some point. It was a bit like just poking a finger into the haystack, frankly, and hoping to encounter a needle. But worth a try. So Trapp called this woman, sexual assault detective Laura Lomelli.
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Good & Evil
Trapp asked Lomelli, were any of those GPS monitors here where Geray placed her last phone call, or here, where she wound up in a dumpster? And if you find the same guy at both locations, You're getting somewhere. Lomeli ran the search. And what were the chances she got a hit in both locations? She called Detective Trapp.
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Emotional testimony from a killer. A murder defendant's unusual defense. And travel scam safety tips.
Did you watch your children die?
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Emotional testimony from a killer. A murder defendant's unusual defense. And travel scam safety tips.
It's a terrible question, and it's one I hate to have to ask.
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An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Hello, Blaine. Thank you for having me on your program today.
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An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Exactly. A small, very cohesive town. And one of the finest families in town was headed by a couple who were just about as fine as a husband and wife could be. They'd raised a wonderful family. They'd run a successful agricultural business. They had done everything that they should do. They'd done it all right for many years. And then something happened.
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An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Investigators focused early on somebody close to the victim who was a bit of a ne'er-do-well. And he and a cousin of his were pinned for the crime. Then the question was, did they do it or didn't they do it? In fact, one of them confessed. So that kind of made it look pretty obvious that they did. But things developed from there. I don't want to give away too much, you know.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
One of the titles that we thought we might choose for our story, we didn't in the end, but we were thinking about it, was Bloodshadow. And the reason was a rifle was fired at one of the victims. It created a blood spatter, which traveled across a hallway and hit a wall.
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An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
But on the wall was a person shaped where there was no blood spatter, which indicated that there was somebody else involved in addition to the main shooter.
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An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
It was a crime that was solved until it wasn't solved. It was wrapped up quite neatly in a bow and then suddenly, oh, maybe not. This was a story in which there is, and it doesn't happen that often, but I like to point it out when it does. You're familiar with the term MacGuffin, which is that kind of small, apparently insignificant thing that eventually turns a tail on its head.
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An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
This story has a... It has a pure MacGuffin. It's just quite an interesting one. You know, somebody found a gold ring in a place where it didn't belong in an otherwise scrupulously clean kitchen and nobody could figure out who it belonged to. So whose was it and where did it come from? Then you go on a long and winding pathway to find the truth.
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An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
And you went through each one? Yes.
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An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
How long did that process take?
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An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Does that seem a little over the top? I mean, you can look for an hour or so and say, well, I can't find it. Sorry. And that would be that.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
The woman you just heard is, in my mind, the hero of the story because she goes above and beyond. There were a lot of old files. She had to go through stacks and stacks and stacks of them, which she did one by one. to look at all the invoices for all the gold rings that were ordered from that jewelry shop in Buffalo.
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An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
The question of whether she finds it or not, or finds out where it went, would become crucial to this entire investigation.
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An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So there's one ex-boyfriend who's a suspect for a while.
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An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Thank you, Blaine. Take care.
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An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
They had to be scared out of their minds.
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An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
The voice of the killer.
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Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
How the Grinch Stole Christmas by Dr. Seuss. Every Who down in Whoville liked Christmas a lot. But the Grinch, who lived just north of Whoville, did not. The Grinch hated Christmas, the whole Christmas season. Please don't ask why. No one quite knows the reason. It could be his head wasn't screwed on just right. It could be perhaps his shoes were too tight.
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Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
Every Who down in Whoville, the tall and the small, would stand close together with Christmas bells ringing. They'd stand hand in hand, and the Whos would start singing. They'd sing and they'd sing. Oh, and they'd sing, sing, sing, sing. And the more the Grinch thought of the Who Christmas Sing, the more the Grinch thought, I must stop this whole thing. Why, for 53 years I've put up with it now.
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Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
I must stop Christmas from coming. But how? Then he got an idea, an awful idea. The Grinch got a wonderful, awful idea. I know just what to do, the Grinch laughed in his throat. And he made a quick Santy Claus hat and a coat. And he chuckled and clucked. What a great Grinchy trick. With this coat and this hat, I'll look just like Saint Nick. All I need is a reindeer.
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Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
The Grinch looked around, but since reindeer are scarce, there were none to be found. Did that stop the old Grinch? No! The Grinch simply said, if I can't find a reindeer, I'll make one instead. So he called his dog, Max. Then he took some red thread and he tied a big horn on the top of his head. Then he loaded some bags and some old empty sacks on a ramshackle sleigh and he hitched up old Max.
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Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
Then the Grinch said, get up. And the sleigh started down toward the homes where the hooves lay a snooze in their town. All their windows were dark. Quiet snow filled the air. And the hooves were all dreaming sweet dreams without care. When he came to the first little house on the square, This is stop number one, the old Grinchy Claus hissed, and he climbed to the roof, empty bags in his fist.
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Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
Then he slid down the chimney, a rather tight pinch, If Santa could do it, then so could the Grinch. He got stuck only once for a moment or two. Then he stuck his head out of the fireplace flue where the little Who stockings all hung in a row. These stockings, he grinned, are the first things to go.
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Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
Then he slithered and slunk with a smile most unpleasant around the whole room, and he took every present, pop guns, bicycles, roller skates, drums, checkerboards, tricycles, popcorn, plums, and he stuffed them in bags. Then the Grinch, very nibbly, stuffed all the bags one by one up the chimney. Then he slunk to the icebox. He took the Who feast. He took the Who pudding. He took the roast beast.
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Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
But I think that the most likely reason of all may have been that his heart was two sizes too small. But whatever the reason, his heart or his shoes, he stood there on Christmas Eve, hating the who's, staring down from his cave with a sour, grinchy frown. at the warm lighted windows below in the town. For he knew every Who down in Whoville beneath was busy now, hanging a mistletoe wreath.
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Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
He cleaned out the icebox as quick as a flash, while the Grinch even took their last can of hoo-hash. Then he stuffed all the food up the chimney with glee. And now, grinned the Grinch, I will stuff up the tree. And the Grinch grabbed the tree and he started to shove. Then he heard a small sound like the coo of a dove.
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Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
He turned around fast and he saw a small Who, little Cindy Lou Who, who was not more than two. The Grinch had been caught by this tiny Who daughter who'd got out of bed for a cup of cold water. She stared at the Grinch and said, Santy Claus, why? Why are you taking our Christmas tree? Why? But you know, that old Grinch was so smart and so slick, he thought up a lie, and he thought it up quick.
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Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
Why, my sweet little tot, the fake Santy Claus lied. There's a light on this tree that won't light on one side, so I'm taking it home to my workshop, my dear. I'll fix it up there. Then I'll bring it back here." And his fib fooled the child. Then he patted her head and he got her a drink and he sent her to bed.
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Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
And when Cindy Lou Who went to bed with her cop, he went to the chimney and stuffed the tree up. Then the last thing he took was the log for their fire. Then he went up the chimney himself, the old liar. On their walls he left nothing but hooks and some wire. And the one speck of food that he left in the house was a crumb that was even too small for a mouse.
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Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
Then he did the same thing to the other hooves' houses, leaving crumbs much too small for the other hooves' mouses. It was quarter past dawn. All the hooves still abed, all the hooves still a snooze when he packed up his sled. Packed it up with their presents, the ribbons, the wrappings, the rags and the tinsel, the trimmings, the trappings.
Dateline NBC
Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
Three thousand feet up, up the side of Mount Crumpit, he rode with his load to the tip-top to dump it. Poo-poo to the hooves, he was grinchously humming. They're finding out now that no Christmas is coming. They're just waking up. I know just what they'll do. Their mouths will hang open a minute or two, and then the Who's down in Whoville will all cry, Boo-hoo!
Dateline NBC
Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
That's a noise, grinned the Grinch, that I simply must hear. So he paused, and the Grinch put his hand to his ear, And he did hear a sound rising over the snow. It started in low, then it started to grow. But the sound wasn't sad. Why, this sound sounded merry. It couldn't be so, but it was merry, very. He stared down at Whoville. The Grinch popped his eyes, then he shook.
Dateline NBC
Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
What he saw was a shocking surprise. Every Who down in Whoville, the tall and the small, was singing without any presents at all. He hadn't stopped Christmas from coming. It came. Somehow or other, it came just the same. And the Grinch, with his Grinch feet ice cold in the snow, stood puzzling and puzzling. How could it be so? It came without ribbons. It came without tags.
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Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
It came without packages, boxes, or bags. And he puzzled three hours till his puzzler was sore. Then the Grinch thought of something he hadn't before. Maybe Christmas, he thought, doesn't come from a store. Maybe Christmas... Perhaps means a little bit more. And what happened then? Well, in Whoville they say that the Grinch's small heart grew three sizes that day.
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Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
And the minute his heart didn't feel quite so tight, he whizzed with his load through the bright morning light, and he brought back the toys and the food for the feast. And he... He himself, the Grinch, carved the roast beast. The end.
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Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
And they're hanging their stockings, he snarled with a sneer. Tomorrow is Christmas, it's practically here. Then he growled with his Grinch figures nervously drumming, I must find some way to stop Christmas from coming. For tomorrow, he knew, all the Who girls and boys would wake bright and early. They'd rush for their toys, and then, oh, the noise, oh, the noise, noise, noise, noise.
Dateline NBC
Dr. Seuss' "How The Grinch Stole Christmas!" read by Keith Morrison
That's one thing he hated, the noise, noise, noise, noise. Then the Whos, young and old, would sit down to a feast. And they'd feast, and they'd feast, and they'd feast, feast, feast, feast. They would feast on Who pudding and rare Who roast beast, which was something the Grinch couldn't stand in the least. And then they'd do something he liked least of all.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
He was so fluttered and so glowing with his good intentions that his broken voice would scarcely answer to his call. He had been sobbing violently in his conflict with the spirit, and his face was wet with tears. They're not torn down, cried Scrooge, folding one of his bed curtains in his arms. They're not torn down, rings and all. Here they are. I am here.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The End of It
The redemption of a greedy, selfish old man. And perhaps Dickens' Christmas wish for all of us, because there's another story not famous like his Christmas Carol. Though he never spoke much about it, Charles Dickens' whole family, his mother, his father, and all of his siblings, were sent to debtor's prison for unpaid bills.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
Only 12 years old at the time, the young Charles was spared, but was required to work in a rat-infested factory for 10 hours a day. A 12-year-old boy, pasting labels on jars. And maybe that's why, for the rest of his life, Charles Dickens championed the poor, the vulnerable among us, hoping to show what good it would do if we were all just a little bit kinder. I'm Keith Morrison.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
From our NBC News family to yours, happy holidays, everyone. Morrison Mysteries is a production of Dateline and NBC News. Charmi and Ling and Liz Brown are senior producers. Carson Cummins is associate producer. Sound mixing by Bob Mallory and Catherine Anderson. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
The shadows of the things that would have been may be dispelled. They will be. I know they will be. His hands were busy with his garments all this time, turning them inside out, putting them on upside down, tearing them, mislaying them, making them parties to every kind of extravagance. I don't know what to do, cried Scrooge, laughing and crying at the same breath. I am as light as a feather.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
I'm as happy as an angel. I'm as merry as a schoolboy. I'm as giddy as a drunken man. A Merry Christmas to everybody. A Happy New Year to all the world. He had frisked into the sitting room and was now standing there perfectly winded. There's the saucepan the gruel was in, cried Scrooge, starting off again and going round the fireplace.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
And there's the door by which the ghost of Jacob Marley entered. There's the corner where the ghost of Christmas present sat. There's the window where I saw the wandering spirits. It's all right. It's all true. It all happened. Woo! Really, for a man who had been out of practice for so many years, it was a splendid laugh. A most illustrious laugh.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
I'm Keith Morrison, and this is the final episode of A Christmas Carol. It's a wonder Ebenezer Scrooge has made it this far in our story. The last ghost he met, the spirit of Christmas future, showed him terrible things. Tiny Tim was dead, and so was Scrooge, though not one single soul mourned him. All of it, Scrooge sees, could have been prevented if only he had been a better person.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
The father of a long, long line of brilliant laughs. "'I don't know what day of the month it is,' said Scrooge. "'I don't know how long I've been among the spirits. I don't know anything. I'm quite a baby. Never mind. I don't care. I'd rather be a baby.' He was checked in his transports by the churches ringing out the lustiest peals he had ever heard.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
Running to the window, he opened it and put out his head. No fog, no mist. It was clear and bright and jovial and stirring and cold, cold. Piping for the blood to dance to. Golden sunlight, heavenly skies, sweet, fresh air. Merry bells, oh, glorious, glorious. What's today? cried Scrooge, calling downward to a boy in Sunday clothes who perhaps had loitered in to look about him. Eh?
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
returned the boy with all his might of wonder. What's today, my fine fellow? said Scrooge. Today, replied the boy, why, it's Christmas Day. It's Christmas Day, said Scrooge to himself. I haven't missed it. The spirits have done it all in one night. They can do anything they like. Of course they can. Of course they can. Hello, my fine fellow. Hello, returned the boy.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
Do you know the butchers in the next street but one at the corner? Scrooge inquired. I should hope I did, replied the lad. An intelligent boy, said Scrooge. A remarkable boy. Do you know whether they've sold the prized turkey that was hanging up there? Not the little prized turkey. The big one. What, the one as big as me? returned the boy. It's hanging there now. It is, said Scrooge.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
Go and buy it. I am an earnest. Go and buy it and tell them to bring it here, that I may give them the direction where to take it. Come back with that man and I'll give you a shilling. Come back with him in less than five minutes and I'll give you a half crown. The boy was off like a shot. I'll send it to Bob Cratchits, whispered Scrooge, rubbing his hands and splitting with a laugh.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
He is tortured now, and as the last ghost disappears, Scrooge is desperate to atone for his sins. As we pick up the story, Scrooge is suddenly back in his own bedroom, everything just as it always was. It's Christmas morning. And old Ebenezer, the most hated man in all of London, is about to get the most precious gift of all. A second chance. The bed was his own. The room was his own.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
He shan't know who sends it. It's twice the size of Tiny Tim. The hand in which he wrote the address was not a steady one, but write it he did, somehow, and went downstairs to open the street door ready for the coming of the butcher's man. As he stood there, waiting his arrival, the knocker caught his eye. I shall love it as long as I live, cried Scrooge, patting it with his hand.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
I scarcely ever looked at it before. What an honest expression it has in its face. It's a wonderful knocker. Here's the turkey. How are you? Merry Christmas. It was a turkey. He never could have stood upon his legs, that bird. He would have snapped him short off in a minute. Why, it's impossible to carry that to Camden Town, said Scrooge. You must have a cab.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
The chuckle with which he said this, and the chuckle with which he paid for the turkey, and the chuckle with which he paid for the cab, and the chuckle with which he recompensed the boy... were only to be exceeded by the chuckle with which he sat down breathless in his chair again and chuckled until he cried. Shaving was not an easy task, for his hand continued to shake very much.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
And shaving requires attention, even when you don't dance while you're at it. But if he had cut the end of his nose off, he would have put a piece of sticking plaster over it and been quite satisfied. He dressed himself all in his best and at last got out into the streets. The people were by this time pouring forth as he had seen them with the ghost on Christmas present.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
And walking with his hands behind him, Scrooge regarded everyone with a delighted smile. He looked so irresistibly pleasant, in a word, the three or four good-humored fellows said, Good morning, sir. A merry Christmas to you. And Scrooge said often afterwards that of all the happy sounds he ever heard, those were the happiest in his ears.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
He had not gone far when, coming on towards him, he beheld the portly gentleman who had walked into his counting-house the day before and said, Scrooge and Marlies, I believe. It sent a pang across his heart to think how this old gentleman would look upon him when they met. But he knew what path lay straight before him, and he took it.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
My dear sir, said Scrooge, quickening his pace and taking the old gentleman by both his hands. How do you do? I hope you succeeded yesterday. It was very kind of you. A Merry Christmas to you, sir. Mr. Scrooge? "'Yes,' said Scrooge, "'that is my name, and I fear it may not be pleasant to you. Allow me to ask your pardon, and will you have the goodness?' Here Scrooge whispered in his ear.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
"'Lord bless me!' cried the gentleman, as if his breath were taken away. "'My dear Mr. Scrooge, are you serious?' If you please," said Scrooge, not a farthing less. A great many back payments are included in it, I assure you. Will you do me that favor?" My dear sir," said the other, shaking hands with him, I don't know what to say. Don't say anything, please," retorted Scrooge. Come and see me.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
Will you come and see me?" I will, cried the old gentleman, and it was clear he meant to do it. Thank you, said Scrooge. I am much obliged to you. I thank you fifty times. Bless you.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
He went to church, and he walked about the streets, and he watched the people hurrying to and fro, and patted the children on the head, and questioned the beggars, and looked down into the kitchens of houses, and up to the windows, and found that everything could yield him pleasure. He had never dreamed that any walk, that anything, could give him so much happiness.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
In the afternoon he turned his steps toward his nephew's house. His nephew, the bright and sparkling young man whose optimism stood fast even in the face of Scrooge's unforgiving misery. He could turn Scrooge away, of course. And who would blame him, really? Christmas Day.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
Scrooge is on the threshold of a whole new life, and on the doorstep of his only surviving relative, who was kind to him even when he was at his most despicable, his nephew, Fred. Now Scrooge approaches Fred's house, and, as Dickens writes, he hesitates. He passed the door a dozen times before he had the courage to go up and knock. But he made a dash and he did it. Is your master at home, my dear?
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
said Scrooge to the girl. Nice girl, very. "'Yes, sir.' "'Where is he, my love?' said Scrooge. "'He's in the dining-room, sir, along with the mistress. I'll show you upstairs, if you please.' "'Thank you, he knows me,' said Scrooge, with his hand already on the dining-room lock. "'I'll go in here, my dear.' He turned it gently and sidled his face in, round the door."
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
They were looking at the table, which was spread out in great array, for these young housekeepers are always nervous on such points and like to see that everything is right. "'Fred!' said Scrooge. "'Dear heart, alive how his niece by marriage started!' Scrooge had forgotten for the moment about her sitting in the corner with the footstool, or he wouldn't have done it on any account.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
"'Why, bless my soul!' cried Fred. "'Who's that?' It's I, your Uncle Scrooge. I have come to dinner. Will you let me in, Fred? Let him in? It's a mercy he didn't shake his arm off. He was at home in five minutes. Nothing could be heartier. His niece looked just the same. So did everyone when they came. Wonderful party, wonderful games, wonderful unanimity, wonderful happiness.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
Best and happiest of all, the time before him was his own to make amends in. I will live in the past, the present, and the future, Scrooge repeated as he scrambled out of bed. The spirits of all three shall strive within me. Oh, Jacob, Marley, heaven, and the Christmas time be praised for this. I say it on my knees. Oh, Jacob, on my knees.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
But he was early at the office the next morning. Oh, he was early there. If he could only be the first there and catch Bob Cratchit coming late, that was a thing he had set his heart upon. And he did it. Yes, he did. The clock struck nine. No Bob. A quarter past. No Bob. He was full eighteen minutes and a half behind his time. Scrooge sat with his door wide open that he might see him come in.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
His hat was off before he opened the door. His comforter, too. He was on his stool in a jiffy, driving away with his pen as if he were trying to overtake nine o'clock. Hello, growled Scrooge in his accustomed voice as near as he could feign it. What do you mean by coming here at this time of day? I'm very sorry, sir, said Bob. I'm behind my time. You are? repeated Scrooge. Yes, I think you are.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
Step this way, sir, if you please. It's only once a year, sir, pleaded Bob. It shall not be repeated. I was making rather merry yesterday, sir. Now, tell you what, my friend, said Scrooge. I'm not going to stand this sort of thing any longer. And therefore, he continued leaping from his stool and giving Bob such a dig in the waistcoat that he staggered back.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
And therefore, I'm about to raise your salary. Bob trembled and got a little nearer to the ruler. He had a momentary idea of knocking Scrooge down with it, holding him and calling to the people in the court for help in a straitjacket. A Merry Christmas, Bob, said Scrooge, with an earnestness that could not be mistaken, as he clapped him on the back.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
A merrier Christmas, Bob, my good fellow, than I have given you for many a year. I'll raise your salary and endeavor to assist your struggling family. We will discuss your affairs this very afternoon over a Christmas bowl of smoking bishop, Bob. Make up the fires and buy another coal scuttle before you dot another I, Bob Cratchit. Scrooge was better than his word.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
He did it all and infinitely more. And to Tiny Tim, who did not die, he became a second father. He became as good a friend, as good a master, and as good a man as the good old city knew, or any other good old city, town, or borough in the good old world. Some people laughed to see the alteration in him, but he let them laugh.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
and little heeded them, for he was wise enough to know that nothing ever happened on this globe for good at which some people did not have their fill of laughter in the outset, and knowing that such as these would be blind anyway, he thought it quite as well that they should wrinkle up their eyes and grins as have the malady in less attractive forms.
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A Christmas Carol: The End of It
His own heart laughed, and that was quite enough for him." He had no further intercourse with spirits, but ever afterwards it was always said of him that he knew how to keep Christmas well, if any man alive possessed the knowledge. May that be truly said of us, and all of us. And so, as Tiny Tim observed, God bless us, every one. And that's Charles Dickens' Christmas Carol for the Ages.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
He recoiled in terror till the scene had changed, and now he almost touched a bed, a bare, uncurtained bed, on which beneath a ragged sheet there lay something covered up, which, though it was dumb, announced itself in awful language. The room was very dark, too dark to be observed with any accuracy.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
though Scrooge glanced about it in obedience to a secret impulse, anxious to know what kind of room it was. A pale light, rising in the outer air, fell straight upon the bed, and on it, plundered and bereft, unwatched, unwept, uncared for, was the body of this man. Scrooge glanced toward the phantom. Its steady hand was pointed to the head.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
The cover was so carelessly adjusted that the slightest raising of it, the motion of a finger upon Scrooge's part, would have disclosed the face. He thought of it, felt how easy it would be to do, and longed to do it, but had no more power to withdraw the veil than to dismiss the spectre at his side. Spirit, he said, this is a fearful place. In leaving it, I shall not leave its lesson.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Trust me, let us go. Still, the spirit pointed with an unmoved finger to the head. I understand you, Scrooge returned, and I would do it if I could. But I have not the power, spirit. I have not the power. If there's any person in the town who feels emotion caused by this man's death, said Scrooge, quite agonized, show that person to me, spirit. I beseech you.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
The sight of a dead man, unmourned, robbed of his blankets and shirt, has left Scrooge unmoored. As we return to our tale, he begs the coast to show him someone who cares that the man is dead. And there is someone, but not the way Scrooge expects.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
The phantom spread its dark robe before him for a moment, like a wing, and withdrawing it, revealed a room by daylight, where a mother and her children were.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
The spirit answered not, but pointed onward with its hand. You are about to show me shadows of the things that have not happened, but will happen in the time before us, Scrooge pursued. Is that so, spirit? The upper portion of the garment was contracted for an instant in its folds, as if the spirit had inclined its head. That was the only answer he received.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
She was expecting someone, and with anxious eagerness, for she walked up and down the room, started at every sound, looked out from the window, glanced at the clock, tried, but in vain, to work with her needle, and could hardly bear the voices of the children in their play. At length the long-expected knock was heard.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
She hurried to the door and met her husband, a man whose face was careworn and depressed though he was young. There was a remarkable expression in it now, a kind of serious delight of which he felt ashamed, and which he struggled to repress. He sat down to the dinner that had been hoarding for him by the fire.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
And when she asked him faintly what news, which was not until after a long silence, he appeared embarrassed how to answer. Is it good, she said, or bad, to help him? Bad, he answered. We are quite ruined. No, there is hope yet, Caroline. If he relents, she said, amazed. There is. Nothing is past hope if such a miracle has happened. He is past relenting, said her husband. He is dead.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
She was a mild and patient creature, if her face spoke truth. But she was thankful in her soul to hear it, and she said so with clasped hands. She prayed forgiveness in the next moment and was sorry, but the first was the emotion of her heart. To whom will our debt be transferred? I don't know.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
But before that time, we shall be ready with the money, and even though we were not, it would be a bad fortune indeed to find so merciless a creditor in his successor. We may sleep tonight with light hearts, Caroline." Yes, soften it as they would. Their hearts were lighter. The children's faces, hushed and clustered round to hear what they so little understood, were brighter.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
and it was a happier house for this man's death. The only emotion that the ghost could show him, caused by the event, was one of pleasure. Let me see some tenderness connected with the death, said Scrooge, or that dark chamber spirit which we left just now will be forever present to me. The ghost conducted him through several streets familiar to his feet.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
And as they went along, Scrooge looked here and there to find himself, but nowhere was he to be seen. They entered poor Bob Cratchit's house, the dwelling he had visited before, and found the mother and the children seated around the fire, quiet, very quiet. The noisy little Cratchits were as still as statues in one corner. and sat looking up at Peter, who had a book before him.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
The mother and her daughters were engaged in sewing, but surely they were very quiet. The mother laid her work upon the table and put her hand up to her face. "'The color hurts my eyes,' she said. "'The color? Oh, poor tiny Tim!' They're better now again, said Cratchit's wife. It makes them weak by candlelight, and I wouldn't show weak eyes to your father when he comes home for the world.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
It must be near his time. Past it, rather, Peter answered, shutting up his book. But I think he has walked a little slower than he used to these past evenings, mother. They were very quiet again, and at last she said, and in a steady, cheerful voice that only faltered once... I have known him walk with tiny Tim upon his shoulder very fast indeed.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
And so have I, cried Peter, often, and so have I, exclaimed another, and so had all. But he was very light to carry, she resumed intent upon her work, and his father loved him so that it was no trouble, no trouble. And there is your father at the door. She hurried out to meet him, and little Bob, in his comforter he had need of a poor fellow, came in.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Though well used to ghostly company by this time, Scrooge feared the silent shape so much that his legs trembled beneath him, and he found that he could hardly stand when he prepared to follow it. The spirit paused a moment as observing his condition and giving him time to recover. But Scrooge was all the worse for this.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
His tea was ready for him on the stove, and they all tried who should help him to it most. Then the two young Cratchits got upon his knees and laid each child a little cheek against his face, as if they said, Don't mind it, father, don't be grieved. Bob was very cheerful with them and spoke pleasantly to all the family.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
He looked at the work upon the table and praised the industry and speed of Mrs. Cratchit and the girls. They would be done long before Sunday, he said. Sunday? You went today, then, Robert? said his wife. Yes, my dear returned Bob. I wish you could have gone. It would have done you good to see how green a place it is. But you'll see it often. I promised him that I would walk there on Sunday.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
My little, little child, cried Bob. My little child. He broke down all at once. He couldn't help it. They drew about the fire and talked, the girls and mother working still.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Bob told them of the extraordinary kindness of Mr. Scrooge's nephew, whom he had scarcely seen but once, and who, meeting him in the street that day and seeing that he looked a little, just a little down, you know, said Bob, inquired what had happened to distress him. On which, said Bob, for he is a pleasantest spoken gentleman you have ever heard, I told him.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
I'm heartily sorry for it, Mr. Cratchit, he said, and heartily sorry for your good wife. If I can be of service to you in any way, he said, giving me his card, that's where I live. Pray come to me. Now it wasn't, cried Bob, for the sake of anything he might be able to do for us so much as for his kind way, and that was quite delightful.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
It really seemed as if he had known our tiny Tim and felt with us. I'm sure he's a good soul, said Mrs. Cratchit. You would be sure of it, my dear, returned Bob, if you saw and spoke to him. I shouldn't be at all surprised, mark what I say, if he got Peter a better situation. Hold me here to that, Peter, said Mrs. Cratchit.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
And then, cried one of the girls, Peter will be keeping company with someone and setting up for himself. Get along with you, retorted Peter, grinning. It's just as likely as not, said Bob, one of these days, though there's plenty of time for that, my dear. However, and whenever we part from one another, I am sure we shall none of us forget poor tiny Tim, shall we?
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
For this first parting that there was among us. Never, father, cried they all. And I know, said Bob, I know, my dears, that when we recollect how patient and how mild he was, though he was little, a little child, we shall not quarrel easily among ourselves and forget poor tiny Tim in doing it. No, never, father, they all cried again. I'm very happy, said little Bob, I'm very happy.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Mrs. Cratchit kissed him, his daughters kissed him, the two young Cratchits kissed him, and Peter and himself shook hands happily. Spectre, said Scrooge, something informs me that our parting moment is at hand. I know it, but I know not how. Tell me what man that was whom we saw lying dead. The ghost of Christmas yet to come conveyed him as before.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
It thrilled him with a vague, uncertain horror to know that behind the dusky shroud there were ghostly eyes intently fixed upon him. Well, he, though he stretched his own to the utmost, could see nothing but a spectral hand and one great heap of lacquer.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
This court, said Scrooge, through which we hurry now, is where my place of occupation is and has been for a length of time. I see the house. Let me behold what I shall be in days to come. The spirit stopped. The hand was pointed elsewhere. The house is yonder, Scrooge exclaimed. Why do you point away? The inexorable finger underwent no change.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Scrooge hastened to the window of his office and looked in. It was an office still, but not his. The furniture was not the same, and the figure in the chair was not himself. The phantom pointed as before. He joined it once again, and wondering why and whether he had gone, accompanied it until they reached an iron gate. He paused to look around before entering. A churchyard?
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Here, then, the wretched man whose name he had now to learn lay underneath the ground. It was a worthy place, walled in by houses, overrun by grass and weeds, the growth of vegetation's death, not life, choked up with too much burying, fat with repleted appetite, a worthy place. The spirit stood among the graves and pointed down to one. He advanced toward it trembling.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
The phantom was exactly as it had been, but he dreaded that he saw new meaning in its solemn shape. Before I draw nearer to that stone to which you point, said Scrooge, answer me one question. Are these the shadows of the things that will be, or are they the shadows of things that may be only? Still, the ghost pointed downward to the grave by which it stood.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Scrooge crept towards it, trembling as he went, and following the finger, read upon the stone of the neglected grave... His own name, Ebenezer Scrooge. Am I that man who lay upon the bed? He cried upon his knees. The finger pointed from the grave to him and back again. No, spirit, oh no, no. The finger still was there. "'Spirit!' he cried, tight clutching at its robe. "'Hear me!
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
I am not the man I was. Why show me this, if I am past all hope?' For the first time, the hand appeared to shake. "'Good spirit!' he pursued, as down on the ground he fell before it. "'Your nature intercedes for me and pities me.' Assure me that I may yet change these shadows you have shown me by an altered life. The kind hand trembled.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
ghost of the future he exclaimed I fear you more than any specter I have seen but as I know your purpose is to do me good and as I hope to live to be another man from what I was I am prepared to bear you company and will do it with a thankful heart will you not speak to me it gave him no reply the hand was pointed straight before them Lead on, said Scrooge, lead on.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
I will honor Christmas in my heart and try to keep it all the year. I will live in the past, the present, and the future. The spirits of all three shall strive within me. I will not shut out the lessons that they teach. Oh, tell me I may sponge away the writing on this stone." In his agony, he caught the spectral hand. It sought to free itself, but he was strong in his entreaty and detained it.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
The spirit, stronger still, repulsed him. Holding up his hands in a last prayer to have his fate reversed, he saw an alteration in the phantom's hood and dress. It shrunk, collapsed, and dwindled down into a bedpost. And so Charles Dickens slams the chapter shut on Scrooge as he lies in bed tormented by a vision of his own lonely death, desperate for a second chance that will not come.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
I'm Keith Morrison, and this is episode four of Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol. These days we'd probably call Ebenezer Scrooge a hater. What else do you call a man who doesn't like babies or Christmas? Or people, really. That is, until the ghost of Christmas passed, and the ghost of Christmas present got their hands on Scrooge.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
The night is waning fast, and it is precious time to me, I know. Lead on, spirit. The phantom moved away as it had come towards him. Scrooge followed in the shadow of its dress, which bore him up, he thought, and carried him along. They scarcely seemed to enter the city, for the city rather seemed to spring up about them. and encompassed them of its own act.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
But there they were in the heart of it, amongst the merchants, who hurried up and down, and chinked the money in their pockets, and conversed in groups, and looked at their watches, and trifled thoughtfully with their great gold seals, and so forth, as Scrooge had seen them often do. The spirit stopped beside one little knot of business men,
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Observing that the hand was pointed to them, Scrooge advanced to listen to their talk. "'No,' said a great fat man with a monstrous chin. "'I don't know much about it either way. I only know he's dead.' "'When did he die?' inquired another. "'Last night, I believe.' What was the matter with him? asked a third, taking a great vast quantity of snuff out of a very large snuff box.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Got him thinking about charity and kindness and what it means to be happy. And to make others happy. But as we rejoin our story, Scrooge doesn't have time to think too hard about any of that. Because heading his way is something dark. And Scrooge is seized by a cold fear. The Phantom slowly, gravely, silently approached.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
I thought he'd never die. God knows, said the first, with a yawn. What has he done with his money? asked a red-faced gentleman. I haven't heard, said the man with the large chin. yawning again. Left it to his company, perhaps. If he hasn't left it to me, that's all I know. This pleasantry was received with a general laugh.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
It's likely to be a very cheap funeral, said the same speaker, for upon my life I don't know of anybody to go to it. Speakers and listeners strolled away and mixed with other groups. Scrooge knew the men and looked towards the spirit for an explanation. The phantom glided on into a street. Its finger pointed to two persons meeting.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Scrooge listened again, thinking that the explanation might lie here. He knew these men also perfectly. They were men of business, very wealthy and of great importance. He had made a point always of standing well in their esteem, in a business point of view, that is, strictly on a business point of view. How are you? said one. How are you? returned the other. Well, said the first.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Old Scratch has got his own at last, eh? So I'm told, returned the second. Cold, isn't it? Seasonable for Christmas time. You're not a skater, I suppose. No, no, something else to think of. Good morning. Not another word. That was their meeting, their conversation, and their parting.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Scrooge was at first inclined to be surprised that the spirit should attach importance to conversations apparently so trivial. But feeling assured that they must have some hidden purpose, he set himself to consider what it was likely to be. They could scarcely be supposed to have any bearing on the death of Jacob, his old partner, for that was past, and this ghost's province was the future.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Nor could he think of anyone immediately connected with himself to whom he could apply them. He resolved to treasure up every word he heard and everything he saw, and especially to observe the shadow of himself when it appeared, for he had an expectation that the conduct of his future self would give him the clue he missed, and would render the solution to these riddles easy.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
He looked about in that very place for his own image. But another man stood in his accustomed corner, and though the clock pointed to his usual time of day for being there, he saw no likeness of himself among the multitudes that poured in through the porch.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
It gave him little surprise, however, for he had been resolving in his mind a change of life, and thought and hoped he saw his new-born resolutions carried out in this. Quiet and dark beside him stood the Phantom, with its outstretched hand.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
When he roused himself from his thoughtful quest, he fancied from the turn of the hand and its situation in reference to himself that the unseen eyes were looking at him keenly. It made him shudder and feel very cold. The ghost of Christmas to come has shown Scrooge a glimpse of his own future. So much of it is familiar. The gossiping man of business, the city streets.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
But the dead man, he can't make sense of that or doesn't want to. As you'll hear, the ghost is far from done with Scrooge yet. Here is the writing of Charles Dickens once again. They left the busy scene and went into an obscure part of the town where Scrooge had never penetrated before, though he recognized its situation and its bad repute.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
The ways were foul and narrow, the shops and houses wretched, the people half-naked, drunken, slipshod, ugly. Alleys and archways, like so many cesspools, disgorged their offenses of smell and dirt and life upon the straggling streets. And the whole quarter reeked with crime, with filth, misery.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Far in this den of infamous resort, there was a low-browed beetling shop, below a penthouse roof, where iron, old rags, bottles, bones, and greasy offal were bought. Upon the floor within were piled up heaps of rusty keys, nails, chains, hinges, files, scales, weights, and refuse iron of all kinds.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Sitting in amongst the wares he dealt in by a charcoal stove made of old bricks was a grey-haired rascal nearly seventy years of age who had screened himself from the cold air without by a frowsy curtaining of miscellaneous tatters hung upon a line. and smoked his pipe in the luxury of calm retirement.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
When it came near him, Scrooge bent down upon his knee, for in the very air through which this spirit moved it seemed to scatter gloom and mystery. It was shrouded in a deep black garment which concealed its head, its face, its form, and left nothing of it visible save one outstretched hand.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Scrooge and the Phantom came into the presence of this man just as a woman with a heavy bundle slunk into the shop. But she had scarcely entered when another woman similarly laden came in too. And she was closely followed by a man in faded black who was no less startled by the sight of them than they had been upon the recognition of each other.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
After a short period of blank astonishment, in which the old man with the pipe had joined them, they all three burst into a laugh. Look here, old Joe, here's a chance. If we haven't all three met here without meaning it, cried she who had entered first. You couldn't have met in a better place, said old Joe, removing his pipe from his mouth. Come into the parlour.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
The old man raked the fire together with an old stair rod, and having trimmed his smoky lamp, for it was night with the stem of his pipe, put it in his mouth again. Well, he did this. The woman who had already spoken threw her bundle on the floor and sat down in a flaunting manner on a stool, crossing her elbows on her knees and looking with a bold defiance at the other two. "'What odds, then?
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
What odds, Mrs. Dilber?' said the woman. Every person has a right to take care of themselves. He always did. Who's the worst for the loss of a few things like these? Not a dead man, I suppose. No, indeed, said Mrs. Dilber, laughing. If he wanted to keep him after he was dead, wicked old miser, pursued the woman, why wasn't he kinder in his lifetime?
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
If he had been, he'd have had somebody to look after him when he was struck with death, instead of lying gasping out his last there alone beside himself. It's the truest word that was ever spoke, said Mrs. Dilber. It's a judgment on him. I wish it was a little heavier judgment, replied the woman. And it should have been, you may depend upon it, if I could have laid my hands on anything else.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Open that bundle, old Joe, and let me know the value of it. Speak out plain. I'm not afraid to be the first, nor afraid for them to see it. We knew pretty well that we were helping ourselves before we met here, I believe. It's no sin. Open the bundle, Joe." But the gallantry of her friends would not allow this. And the man in faded black, mounting the breach first, produced his plunder.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
It was not extensive. A seal or two, a pencil case, a pair of sleeve buttons, and a brooch of no great value were all. They were severally examined and appraised by old Joe, who chalked the sums he was disposed to give for each upon the wall. and added them up to a total when he found there was nothing more to come.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
That's your account, said Joe, and I wouldn't give another sixpence if I was to be boiled for not doing it. Who's next? Mrs. Dilber was next. Sheets and towels, a little wearing apparel, two old-fashioned silver teaspoons, a pair of sugar tongs, and a few boots. Her account was stated on the wall in the same manner. And now undo my bundle, Joe, said the first woman.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Joe went down on his knees for the greater convenience of opening it, and having unfastened a great many knots, dragged out a large and heavy roll of some dark stuff. What do you call this? said Joe. Bed curtains. Ah, returned the woman, laughing and leaning forward on her crossed arms. Bed curtains! You don't mean to say you took him down, rings and all, with him lying there? said Joe.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
But for this it would have been difficult to detach its figure from the night, and separate it from the darkness by which it was surrounded. He felt that it was tall and stately when it came beside him, and that its mysterious presence filled him with a solemn dread. He knew no more, for the spirit neither spoke nor moved. Am I in the presence of the ghost of Christmas yet to come? said Scrooge.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
Yes, I do, replied the woman. Why not? You were born to make your fortune, said Joe, and you'll certainly do it. I certainly shan't stay my hand for the sake of such a man as he was, I promise you, Joe, returned the woman coolly. Don't drop that oil upon the blankets now. His blankets? asked Joe. "'Who else do you think?' replied the woman. "'He isn't likely to take cold without him, I dare say.'
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
"'I hope he didn't die of anything catching, eh?' said old Joe, stopping his work and looking up. "'Don't you be afraid of that,' returned the woman. "'Ah, you may look through that shirt till your eyes ache, "'but you won't find a hole in it, not a threadbare place. "'It's the best one he had, and a fine one, too. "'He'd have wasted it if it hadn't been for me.' What do you call wasting of it?
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
asked old Joe. Putting it on him to be buried in, replied the woman with a laugh. Somebody was fool enough to do it, but I took it off again. Scrooge listened to this dialogue in horror.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
As they sat grouped about their spoil, in the scanty light afforded by the old man's lamp, he viewed them with a detestation and disgust which could hardly have been greater though they had been obscene demons, marketing the corpse itself. Laughed the same woman when old Joe, producing a flannel bag with money in it, told out the several gains upon the ground. This was the end of it, you see.
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A Christmas Carol: The Last of the Spirits
He frightened everyone away from him when he was alive, to profit us when he was dead. "'Spirit,' said Scrooge, shuddering from head to foot, "'I see, I see, the case of this unhappy man might be my own. My life tends that way now. Merciful heaven, what is this?'
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
Bob said he didn't believe there ever was such a goose cooked. Its tenderness and flavor, size and cheapness were the themes of universal admiration. Doubt by applesauce and mashed potatoes, it was a sufficient dinner for the whole family. But now, the plates being changed by Miss Belinda, Mrs. Cratchit left the room to take the pudding up and bring it in.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
In half a minute she entered, flushed but smiling proudly with the pudding, like a speckled cannonball, so hard and firm, blazing in half of half a quart of ignited brandy, and belighted with Christmas holly stuck into the top. "'Oh, a wonderful pudding,' Bob Cratchit said, and calmly, too, that he regarded it as the greatest success achieved by Mrs. Cratchit since their marriage."
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
Everybody had something to say about it, but nobody said or thought it was a small pudding for a large family. It would have been heresy to do so. Any Cratchit would have blushed to hint at such a thing. At last the dinner was all done, the cloth was cleared, the hearth swept, and the fire made up. And then Bob proposed, "'A Merry Christmas to us all, my dears! God bless us all!'
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
which all the family re-echoed. God bless us everyone, said Tiny Tim, the last of all. He sat very close to his father's side, upon his little stool. Bob held his withered little hand in his, as if he loved the child and wished to keep him by his side and dreaded that he might be taken from him. "'Spirit,' said Scrooge, with an interest he had never felt before, "'tell me if Tiny Tim will live.'
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
"'I see a vacant seat,' replied the ghost, "'in the poor chimney corner, "'and a crutch without an owner, carefully preserved. "'If these shadows remain unaltered by the future, "'the child will die.' "'No, no,' said Scrooge, "'no, no, kind spirit, say he will be spared.' If these shadows remain unaltered by the future, none other of my race, returned the ghost, will find him here. What then?
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
Now, being prepared for almost anything, he was not by any means prepared for nothing. And consequently, when the bell struck one and no shape appeared, he was taken with a violent fit of trembling. Five minutes, ten minutes, a quarter of an hour went by, and yet nothing came.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
If he be like to die, he had better do it and decrease the surplus population. Scrooge hung his head to hear his own words quoted by the spirit and was overcome with penitence and grief. Man, said the ghost, Will you decide what men shall live, what men shall die? It may be that in the sight of heaven you are more worthless and less fit to live than millions like this poor man's child."
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
Scrooge bent before the ghost's rebuke and, trembling, cast his eyes upon the ground. But he raised them speedily on hearing his own name. Mr. Scrooge, said Bob, I'll give you Mr. Scrooge, the founder of the feast. The founder of the feast, indeed, cried Mrs. Cratchit, reddening. I wish I had him here. I'd give him a piece of my mind to feast upon, and I hope he'd have a good appetite for it.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
Oh, my dear, said Bob, the children, it's Christmas Day. It should be Christmas Day, I'm sure, said she, on which one drinks the health of such an odious, stingy, hard, unfeeling man as Mr. Scrooge. You know he is, Robert. Nobody knows it better than you do, poor fellow. My dear, was Bob's mild answer, Christmas Day. I'll drink to his health for your sake and the day's, said Mrs. Cratchit.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
Not for his. Long life to him. A merry Christmas and happy New Year. You'll be very merry and very happy, I have no doubt. The children drank the toast after her. It was the first of their proceedings which had no heartiness. Tiny Tim drank it last of all, but he didn't care two tuppence for it. Scrooge was the ogre of the family.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
The mention of his name cast a dark shadow in the party, which was not dispelled for a full five minutes. After it had passed away, they were ten times merrier than before from the mere relief of Scrooge the Baleful being done with. And by and by, they had a song about a lost child traveling in the snow from Tiny Tim, who had a plaintive little voice and sang it very well indeed.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
There was nothing of high mark in this. They were not a handsome family. They were not well-dressed. Their shoes were far from being waterproof. Their clothes were scanty. But they were happy, grateful, pleased with one another, and contented with the time.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
And when they faded and looked happier yet in the bright sprinklings of the spirit's torch at parting, Scrooge had his eye upon them, and especially on Tiny Tim, until the last. And now, without a word of warning from the ghost, they stood upon a bleak and desert moor, where monstrous masses of rude stone were cast about, as though it were the burial place of giants.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
And nothing grew but moss and firs and coarse rank grass. Down in the west, the setting sun had left a streak of fiery red, which glared upon the desolation for an instant like a sullen eye, and frowning lower, lower, lower yet, was lost in the thick gloom of darkest night. What place is this? asked Scrooge. Ebenezer Scrooge is afraid again.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
All this time he lay upon his bed, the very core and center of a blaze of ruddy light which streamed upon it when the clock proclaimed the hour, and which, being only light, was more alarming than a dozen ghosts, as he was powerless to make out what it meant, or would be at, and was sometimes apprehensive that he might be at that very moment an interesting case of spontaneous combustion, without ever having the consolation of knowing it.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
He finds himself in a cold and desolate land he does not recognize, standing outside a miner's hut, its inhabitants strangers. And yet there is a lesson here for Scrooge, something the ghost of Christmas present wants him to see. Christmas cheer spilling from this most humble of places and humble of hearts. Here's Charles Dickens again.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
A light shone from the window of a hut, and swiftly they advanced toward it. Passing through the wall of mud and stone, they found a cheerful company assembled round a glowing fire. An old, old man and woman with their children and their children's children, and another generation beyond that, all decked out gaily in their holiday attire.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
The old man, in a voice that seldom rose above the howling of the wind upon the barren waste, was singing them a Christmas song. It had been a very old song when he was a boy, and from time to time they all joined in the chorus. The spirit did not tarry here, but bade Scrooge hold his robe, and passing on above the moor, sped whither, not to sea, to sea.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
To Scrooge's horror, looking back, he saw the last of the land, a frightful range of rocks behind them, and his ears were deafened by the thundering of water as it rolled and roared and raged among the dreadful caverns it had worn and fiercely tried to undermine the earth. Until, being far away, as he told Scrooge, from any shore, they lighted on a ship.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
They stood beside the helmsman at the wheel, to look out in the bow, the officers who had the watch, dark ghostly figures in their several stations. But every man among them hummed a Christmas tune, or had a Christmas thought, or spoke below his breath to his companion of some bygone Christmas day, with homeward hopes belonging to it.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
And every man on board, waking or sleeping, good or bad, had a kinder word for another on that day than any other in the year, and had shared to some extent in its festivities, and had remembered those he cared for at a distance, and had known that they delighted to remember him. It was a great surprise to Scrooge, while listening to the moaning of the wind, to hear a hearty laugh.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
It was a much greater surprise to Scrooge to recognize it as his own nephew's, and to find himself in a bright, dry, gleaming room, with the spirit standing smiling by his side and looking at that same nephew with approving affability. "'Ha, ha, ha!' laughed Scrooge's nephew."
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
If you should happen by any unlikely chance to know a man more blessed in a laugh than Scrooge's nephew, all I can say is I should like to know him too. Introduce him to me. I'll cultivate his acquaintance. It is a fair, even-handed, noble adjustment of things that while there is infection and disease and sorrow, there's nothing in the world so irresistibly contagious as laughter and good humor."
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
When Scrooge's nephew laughed in this way, holding his sides, rolling his head, and twisting his face into the most extravagant contortions, Scrooge's niece, by marriage, laughed as heartily as he. And their assembled friends, being not a bit behind them, roared out lustily. He said that Christmas was a humbug as I live, cried Scrooge's nephew. He believed it, too.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
More shame for him, Fred, said Scrooge's niece indignantly. He's a comical old fellow, said Scrooge's nephew. That's the truth. And not so pleasant as he might be. However, his offenses carry their own punishment, and I have nothing to say against him. I'm sure he's very rich, Fred, hinted Scrooge's niece. At least you always tell me so. Oh, what of that, my dear, said Scrooge's nephew.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
His wealth is of no use to him. He don't do anything good with it. He don't make himself comfortable with it. He hasn't the satisfaction of thinking that he's ever going to benefit us with it. I have no patience with him, observed Scrooge's niece. Scrooge's niece's sisters and all the other ladies expressed the same opinion. Oh, I have, said Scrooge's nephew. I'm sorry for him.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
At last, however, he began to think that the source and secret of this ghostly light might be in the adjoining room. From whence, on further tracing, it seemed to shine. This idea taking full possession of his mind, he got up softly and shuffled in his slippers to the door. The moment Scrooge's hand was on the lock, a strange voice called him by his name and bade him enter. He obeyed.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
I couldn't be angry with him if I tried. Who suffers by his ill whims? Himself, always. Here he takes it into his head to dislike us and he won't come and dine with us. What's the consequence? You don't lose much of a dinner. Indeed, I think he loses a very good dinner, interrupted Scrooge's niece.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
Everybody else said the same, and they must be allowed to have been competent judges because they just had dinner. And with the dessert upon the table were clustered around the fire by lamplight.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
I was only going to say, said Scrooge's nephew, that the consequence of his taking a dislike to us and not making merry with us is, I think, that he loses some pleasant moments, which could do him no harm. I'm sure he loses pleasanter companions than he can find in his own thoughts, either in his moldy old office or his dusty chambers.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
I mean to give him the same chance every year, whether he likes it or not, for I pity him He may rail at Christmas until he dies, but he can't help thinking better of it. I defy him if he finds me going there in good temper year after year and saying, Uncle Scrooge, how are you? If it only puts him in the vein to leave his poor clerk fifty pounds. That's something. I think I shook him yesterday.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
It was their turn to laugh now at the notion of his shaking Scrooge. But being thoroughly good-natured, and not much caring what they laughed at so long as they laughed, he encouraged them in their merriment, and passed the bottle joyously. After tea they had some music.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
Scrooge's niece played well upon the harp, and played among other tunes a simple little air, a mere nothing, you might learn to whistle it in two minutes. which had been familiar to the child who fetched Scrooge from the boarding school, as he'd been reminded by the ghost of Christmas past.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
When this strain of music sounded, all the things that the ghost had shown them came upon his mind, and he softened more and more. But they didn't devote the whole evening to music. After a while, they played at forfeits, for it's good to be children sometimes, and never better than at Christmas, when its mighty founder was a child himself. Stop! There was first a game at Blind Man's Buff.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
Of course there was. Scrooge's niece was not one of the Blind Man's Buff party, but was made comfortable with a large chair and a footstool in a snug corner. where the ghost and Scrooge were close behind her. But she joined in the forfeits. Likewise, at the game of how, when, and where, she was very great, and to the secret joy of Scrooge's nephew beat her sister's hollow.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
There might have been twenty people there, young and old, but they all played... And so did Scrooge, for, wholly forgetting the interest he had in what was going on, that his voice made no sound in their ears, he sometimes came out with his guests quite loud, and very often guessed quite right, too.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
The ghost was greatly pleased to find him in this mood, and looked on him with such favor that he begged like a boy to be allowed to stay until the guests departed. But this spirit said... That could not be done. "'Here's a new game,' said Scrooge. "'One half-hour, spirit, only one.' It was a game called Yes and No, where Scrooge's nephew had to think of something and the rest must find out what.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
He only answered to their questions yes or no, as the case was. The brisk fire of questioning to which he was exposed elicited from him that he was thinking of an animal, A live animal, a rather disagreeable animal, a savage animal, an animal that growled and grunted sometimes and talked sometimes and lived in London and...
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
At every fresh question that was put to him, his nephew burst into a fresh roar of laughter and was so inexpressibly tickled that he was obliged to get up off the sofa and stamp his feet. At least one of the niece's sisters, falling into a similar state, cried out, I have found it out. I know what it is, Fred. I know what it is. What is it? cried Fred. It's your Uncle Scrooge.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
which it certainly was. He's given us plenty of merriment, I'm sure, said Fred, and it would be ungrateful not to drink to his health. Here's a glass of mulled wine ready to our hand at the moment, and I say, Uncle Scrooge! Well, Uncle Scrooge, they cried. A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to the old man, whatever he is, said Scrooge's nephew.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
It was his own room. There was no doubt about that, but it had undergone a surprising transformation. The walls and ceiling were so hung with living green that it looked a perfect grove, from every part of which bright gleaming berries glistened, the crisp leaves of holly, mistletoe, and ivy. reflected back the light as if so many little mirrors had been scattered there.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
He wouldn't take it from me, but he may have it nevertheless. Uncle Scrooge had imperceptibly become so gay and light of heart that he would have thanked them all in an inaudible speech if the ghost had given him time. But the whole scene passed off in the breath of the last words spoken by his nephew, and he and the spirit were again upon their travels again.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
Much they saw, and far they went, and many homes they visited, but always with a happy end. The spirits stood beside sick beds, and they were cheerful, on foreign lands, and they were close at home. Stood by struggling men, and they were patient in their greater hope.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
by poverty, and it was rich, in almshouses, hospitals, and jails, in misery's every refuge, where vain man in his little grief authority had not made fast the door and barred the spirit out, he left his blessing and taught Scrooge his precepts. It was a long night, if it were only a night, but Scrooge had his doubts of this,
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
It was strange, too, that while Scrooge remained unaltered in his outward form, the ghosts grew older, clearly older. Scrooge had observed this change, but never spoke of it until they left at Children's Twelfth Night Party. When, looking at the spirit as they stood together in an open place, he noticed that his hair was gray. "'Are spirits' lives so short?' asked Scrooge.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
My life upon this globe is very brief, replied the ghost. It ends tonight. Tonight, cried Scrooge. Tonight at midnight. Hark, the time is drawing near. The chimes were ringing at three quarters past eleven at that moment. Forgive me if I'm not justified in what I ask, said Scrooge, looking intently at the spirit's robe.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
But I see something strange and not belonging to yourself protruding from your skirts. Is it a foot or a claw? It might be a claw, for the flesh there is upon it, was the spirit's sorrowful reply. Look here. From the foldings of its robe it brought two children, wretched, abject, frightful, hideous, miserable. They knelt down at its feet and clung upon the outside of its garment.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
Oh man, look here, look, look down here, exclaimed the ghost. They were a boy and a girl. yellow, meager, ragged, scowling, wolfish, but prostrate, too, in their humility. Where graceful youth should have filled their features out and touched them with its freshest tints, a stale and shriveled hand, like that of age, had pinched and twisted them and pulled them into shreds.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
"'Spirit, are they yours?' Scrooge could say no more." "'They are man's,' said the spirit, looking down upon them. "'This boy is ignorance, this girl is want. "'Beware them both, and all of their degree. "'But most of all beware this boy, "'for on his brow I see that written which is doom, "'unless the writing be erased.' "'Have they no refuge or resource?' cried Scrooge.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
are there no prisons said the spirit turning on him for the last time with scrooge's own words are there no workhouses the bell struck 12. scrooge looked about him for the ghost and saw it not as the last stroke ceased to vibrate he remembered the prediction of old jacob marley And lifting up his eyes, beheld a solemn phantom, draped and hooded, coming like a mist along the ground, towards him.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
And so this chapter ends, the words still ringing in Scrooge's ears. Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses? For the first time, new feelings wash over him. Empathy. And yet, as this new phantom slinks toward him, he is consumed by dread. He's about to see the most terrifying thing of all. The future.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
And such a mighty blaze went roaring up the chimney as that dull petrification of a hearth had never known in Scrooge's time, or Marley's, or for many and many a winter season gone. Heaped up on the floor, to form a kind of throne, were turkeys, geese, game, poultry,
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
great joints of meat, suckling pigs, long wreaths of sausages, mince pies, plum puddings, barrels of oysters, red-hot chestnuts, cherry-cheeked apples, juicy oranges, luscious pears, and seething bowls of punch that made the chamber dim with their delicious steam. In easy state, upon his couch,
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
There sat a jolly giant, glorious to see, who bore a glowing torch in shape not unlike Plenty's horn and held it up high up to shed its light on Scrooge as he came peeping round the door. "'Come in!' exclaimed the ghost. "'Come in and know me better, man!' Scrooge entered timidly and hung his head before the spirit." And though the spirit's eyes were clear and kind, he did not like to meet them.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
I'm Keith Morrison, and this is episode three of Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol. Ebenezer Scrooge is back in bed, weighed down by blankets and regret. He's reeling from all the ghosts of Christmas past has shown him. Memories of his boyhood and who he once was. Visions of who he has become. Sour, greedy, unlovable, alone. He falls into a troubled sleep.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
I am the ghost of Christmas present, said the spirit. Look upon me. Scrooge reverently did so. The spirit was clothed in one simple green robe or mantle bordered with white fur. The garment hung so loosely on the figure that his capacious breast was bare, as if disdaining to be warded or concealed by any artifice.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
His feet, observable beneath the ample folds of the garment, were also bare, and on its head it wore no other covering than a holly wreath. set here and there with shining icicles. Its dark brown curls were long and free. Free as its genial face, its sparkling eye, its open hand, its cheery voice, its unconstrained demeanor, and its joyful hair.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
You have never seen the like of me before, exclaimed the spirit. Never! Scrooge made answer to it. the ghost of Christmas present rose. "'Spirit,' said Scrooge submissively, "'conduct me where you will.' "'Touch my robe!' Scrooge did as he was told, and held it fast.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
Hawley, mistletoe, red berries, ivy, turkeys, geese, game, poultry, meat, pigs, sausages, oysters, pies, puddings, fruit, and punch all vanished instantly.' So did the room, the fire, the ruddy glow, the hour of night. And they stood in the city streets on Christmas morning.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
where, when the weather was severe, the people made a rough but brisk and not unpleasant kind of music in scraping the snow from the pavement in front of their dwellings and from the tops of their houses, whence it was mad delight to the boys to see it come plumping down into the road below and splitting into artificial little snowstorms.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
The house fronts looked black enough and the windows blacker, contrasting with the smooth white sheet of snow upon the roofs and with the dirtier snow on the ground. There was nothing very cheerful in the climate or the town. And yet was there an air of cheerfulness abroad that the clearest summer air and brightest summer sun might have endeavored to diffuse in vain.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
And yes, Charles Dickens writes, he's snoring. But for how long? And what terrifying specter waits to confront him now? Awakening in the middle of a prodigiously tough snore, and sitting up in bed to get his thoughts together, Scrooge had no occasion to be told that the bell was again upon the stroke of one.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
For the people who were shoveling away on the housetops were jovial, full of glee, calling out to one another from the parapets, and now and then exchanging a facetious snowball. Better natured missile far than any a wordy jest. Laughing heartily if it went right by, and not less heartily if it went wrong. The poultry shops were still half open, and the fruiters were radiant in their glory.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
There were great round pot-bellied baskets of chestnuts shaped like the waistcoats of jolly old gentlemen lolling at the doors and tumbling out into the street. There were pears and apples clustered high in blooming pyramids. There were bunches of grapes made in the shopkeeper's benevolence to dangle from conspicuous hooks that people's mouths might water gratis as they passed.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
The grocers, oh, the grocers, nearly closed with perhaps two shutters down or one, but through these gaps such glimpses. It was not just that everything was good to eat and in its Christmas dress.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
But the customers were all so hurried and so eager in the hopeful promise of the day that they tumbled up against each other at the door, crashing their wicker baskets wildly, and left their purchases upon the counter, and came running back to fetch them, and committed hundreds of like mistakes in the best humor possible.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
But soon the steeples called good people all to church and chapel, and away they came, flocking through the streets in their best clothes and with their gayest faces. And at the same time there emerged from scores of by-streets and lanes and nameless turnings innumerable people carrying their dinners.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
The sight of these poor revelers appeared to interest the spirit very much, for he stood with Scrooge and, taking off the covers as their bearers passed, sprinkled incense on their dinners from his torch. And it was a very uncommon kind of torch, for once or twice, when there were angry words between some dinner-carriers who had jostled each other, he shed a few drops of water on them from it.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
and their good humor was restored directly. For they said it was a shame to quarrel upon Christmas Day. And so it was. God love it, so it was. "'Is there a particular flavor in what you sprinkle from your torch?' asked Scrooge. "'There is. My own.' "'Would it apply to any kind of dinner on this day?' asked Scrooge." To any kindly given, to a poor one most. Why to a poor person most?
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
asked Scrooge. Because that person needs it most. And they went on, invisible as they had been before, into the suburbs of the town. And perhaps it was his own kind, generous, hearty nature and his sympathy with all poor men that led the spirit straight to Scrooge's clerk. There he went and took Scrooge with him, holding to his robe.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
And that's where we'll leave Ebenezer Scrooge, standing outside Bob Cratchit's door. the lowly clerk whom he had begrated just hours earlier for taking off Christmas Day. He has unexpectedly become Cratchit's invisible Christmas guest. It's a Christmas dinner he'll never forget. The ghost of Christmas present has spirited Scrooge to Bob Cratchit's home.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
The clerk Scrooge overworks and underpays, and regularly humiliates. Before they enter the house, the spirit blesses it with his torch. Then up rose Mrs. Cratchit, Cratchit's wife, dressed out but poorly in a twice-turned gown, but brave in ribbons, which are cheap.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
And she laid the cloth, assisted by Belinda Cratchit, second of her daughters, also brave in ribbons, while Master Peter Cratchit plunged a fork into the saucepan of potatoes.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
And now two smaller Cratchits, boy and girl, came tearing in, screaming that outside the baker's they had smelt the goose and known it for their own, and basking in luxurious thoughts of sage and onion, these young Cratchits danced about the table. What has ever got your precious father, then, said Mrs. Cratchit, and your brother, Tiny Tim?
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
He felt that he was restored to consciousness in the right nick of time, for the especial purpose of holding a conference with the second messenger dispatched to him through Jacob Marley's intervention.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
And Martha wasn't as late last Christmas Day by half an hour. Here's Martha, mother, said a girl, appearing as she spoke. Why, bless your heart alive, my dear, how late you are, said Mrs. Cratchit, kissing her a dozen times, taking off her shawl and bonnet for her with a vicious zeal. We'd a deal of work to finish up last night, replied the girl, and had to clear away this morning, mother.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
Well, never mind, so long as you are come, said Mrs. Cratchit. Sit you down before the fire, my dear, and have a warm. Lord bless you. No, no, there's father coming, cried the two young Cratchits who were everywhere at once. Hide, Martha, hide. So Martha hid herself. And in came Bob, the father, and Tiny Tim upon his shoulder.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
Alas for Tiny Tim, he bore a little crutch and had his limbs supported by an iron frame. Why, where's our Martha? cried Bob Cratchit, looking round. Not coming, said Mrs. Cratchit. "'Not coming,' said Bob, with a sudden declension in his high spirits, for he had been Tim's horse all the way from church. "'Not coming upon Christmas Day?'
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
Martha didn't like to see him disappointed if it were only a joke, so she came out prematurely from behind the closet door and ran into his arms while the two young Cratchits hustled Tiny Tim and bore him off to the wash house that he might hear the Christmas pudding singing while it cooked. "'And how did little Tim behave?' asked Mrs. Cratchit." As good as gold, said Bob, and better.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
But finding that he turned uncomfortably cold when he began to wonder which of his curtains his new spectre would draw back, he put every one of them aside with his own hands, and lying down again established a sharp lookout all around the bed, for he wished to challenge the spirit on the moment of its appearance, and did not wish to be taken by surprise and made nervous.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
Somehow he gets thoughtful sitting by himself so much and thinks the strangest things you ever heard. He told me coming home that he hoped the people saw him in the church because he was a cripple, and it might be pleasant to them to remember upon Christmas Day who made lame beggars walk and blind men see.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
Bob's voice was tremulous when he told them this, and trembled more when he said that Tiny Tim was growing strong and hearty. His active little crutch was heard upon the floor, and back came Tiny Tim before another word was spoken, escorted by his brother and sister to his stool before the fire.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
And the two ubiquitous young Cratchits went to fetch the goose, with which they soon returned in high procession. Such a bustle ensued. You might have thought a goose the rarest of all birds. Mrs. Cratchit made the gravy, ready beforehand in a little saucepan, hissing hot. Master Peter mashed the potatoes with incredible vigor. Bob took Tiny Tim beside him in a tiny corner at the table.
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
The two young cratchits set chairs for everybody, not forgetting themselves, and mounting guard upon their posts, crammed spoons into their mouths, lest they should shriek for goose before their turn came to be helped. At last the dishes were set on, and grace was said. It was succeeded by a breathless pause."
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A Christmas Carol: The Second of the Three Spirits
as Mrs. Cratchit, looking slowly all along the carving knife, prepared to plunge it in the breast. But when she did, and when the long-expected gush of stuffing issued forth, one murmur of delight rose all around the board, and even Tiny Tim, excited by the two young Cratchits, beat on the table with the handle of his knife and cried feebly, Hurrah! Hurrah!
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
She clapped her hands and laughed and tried to touch his head, but being too little, laughed again and stood on tiptoe to embrace him. Then she began to drag him in her childish eagerness toward the door, and he accompanied her. A terrible voice in the hall cried, "'Bring down Master Scrooge's box there!'
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
And in the hall appeared the schoolmaster himself, who glared on Master Scrooge with a ferocious condescension." and threw him into a dreadful state of mind by shaking hands with him. Master Scrooge's trunk, being by this time tied to the top of the carriage, the children bade the schoolmaster goodbye, right willingly.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
Always a delicate creature, whom a breath might have withered, said the ghost, but she had a large heart. So she had, cried Scrooge. You're right. She died a woman, said the ghost, and had, as I think, children. One child, Scrooge returned. True, said the ghost, your nephew. Scrooge seemed uneasy in his mind and answered briefly, yes.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
Although they had but that moment left the school behind them, they were now in the busy thoroughfares of a city, where shadowy passengers passed and repassed, where shadowy carts and coaches battled for the way, and all the strife and tumult of a real city were. It was made plain enough by the dressing of the shops that here, too, it was Christmas time again.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
But it was evening, and the streets were lighted up The ghost stopped at a certain warehouse door and asked Scrooge if he knew it. "'Know it?' said Scrooge. "'I was apprenticed here.' They went in. At sight of an old gentleman in a Welsh wig, sitting behind such a high desk that if he had been two inches taller he must have knocked his head against the ceiling, Scrooge cried in great excitement.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
Why, it's old Fezziwig! Bless his heart, it's Fezziwig alive again! Old Fezziwig laid down his pen and looked up at the clock, which pointed to the hour of seven. He rubbed his hands, adjusted his capacious waistcoat, laughed all over himself from his shoes to his organ of benevolence, and called out in a comfortable, oily, rich, fat, jovial voice, Yo-ho there, Ebenezer, Dick!
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
Scrooge's former self, now grown a young man, came briskly in, accompanied by his fellow apprentice. "'Dick Wilkins, to be sure,' said Scrooge to the ghost. "'Bless me, yes, there he is. He was very much attached to me, was Dick. Poor Dick, dear, dear.'" Yo-ho, my boys, said Fezzerwig. No more work tonight. Christmas Eve, Dick. Christmas, Ebenezer.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
It isn't possible that anything has happened to the sun, and this is twelve at noon. The idea being an alarming one, he scrambled out of bed and groped his way to the window. He was obliged to rub the frost off with the sleeve of his dressing gown before he could see anything, and he could see very little then.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
Let's have the shutters up, cried old Fezzerwig with a sharp clap of his hands. You wouldn't believe how those two fellows went at it. They charged into the street with the shutters. One, two, three. They had them up in their places. Four, five, six. Barred them and pinned them. Seven, eight, nine. and came back before you could have got to twelve panting like racehorses. "'Hilly-ho!'
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
cried old Fezziwig, skipping down from the high desk with wonderful agility. "'Clear away, my lads, and let's have lots of room here.' "'Clear away!' There was nothing they wouldn't have cleared away, or couldn't have cleared away, with old Fezziwig looking on. It was done in a minute."
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
The floor was swept and watered, the lamps were trimmed, fuel was heaped upon the fire, and the warehouse was as snug and warm and dry and bright of all room as you would desire to see on a winter's night. In came a fiddler with a music book. In came Mrs. Fezzerwig, one vast substantial smile. In came the three Miss Fezzerwigs, beaming and lovable.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
In came the six young followers whose hearts they stole. In came all the young men and women employed in the business. In came the housemaid with her cousin, the baker. In came the cook with her brother's particular friend, the milkman.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
In came the boy from over the way, who was suspected of not having bored enough from his master, trying to hide himself behind the girl from next door, but one who was proved to have had her ears pulled by her mistress. In they all came, one after another, some shyly, some boldly, some gracefully, some awkwardly, some pushing, some pulling. In they all came, anyhow and everyhow.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
And away they all went, twenty couples at once, hand half round and back again the other way, down the middle and up again, round and round. There were more dances and more dances, and there was cake, and there was a great piece of cold roast, and there were mince pies and plenty of beer. But the great effect of the evening came after the roast.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
When the clock struck eleven, this domestic ball broke up. Mr. and Mrs. Fezzerwig took their stations, one on either side of the door, and shaking hands with every person individually as he or she went out, wished him or her a Merry Christmas. When everybody had retired but the two apprentices, they did the same to them.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
And thus the cheerful voices died away, and the lads were left to their beds, which were under a counter in the back shop. During the whole of this time, Scrooge had acted like a man out of his wits. His heart and soul were in the scene, and with his former self, he remembered everything, enjoyed everything, and underwent the strangest agitation ever.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
It was not until now, when the bright faces of his former self and Dick were turned from them, that he remembered the ghost and became conscious that it was looking full upon him, while the light upon its head burnt very clear. "'A small matter,' said the ghost, to make these silly folks so full of gratitude. "'Small!' echoed Scrooge.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
All he could make out was that it was still foggy and extremely cold, and that there was no noise of people running to and fro, as there unquestionably would have been if night had beaten off bright day and taken possession of the world. Scrooge went to bed again and thought and thought and thought it over and over and over and could make nothing of it.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
The Spirit signed to him to listen to the two apprentices, who were pouring out their hearts in praise of Fezziwig. And when he had done so, said, Why is it not he has spent but a few pounds of your mortal money, three or four perhaps? Is that so much that he deserves this praise? "'It isn't that,' said Scrooge, heated by the remark and speaking unconsciously like his former, not his latter self.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
"'It isn't that, spirit. He has the power to render us happy or unhappy, to make our service light or burdensome, a pleasure or a toil.' Say that his power lies in words and looks, in things so slight and insignificant that it is impossible to add and count them up. What then? The happiness he gives is quite as great as if it cost a fortune. He felt the spirit's glance and stopped.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
What is the matter? asked the ghost. Nothing particular, said Scrooge. Something, I think, the ghost insisted. No, said Scrooge. No, I should like to be able to say a word or two to my clerk just now. That's all. His former self turned down the lamps, and Scrooge and the ghost again stood side by side in the open air. My time grows short, observed the spirit. Quick!
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
This was not addressed to Scrooge, or to anyone whom he could see, but it produced an immediate effect, for again Scrooge saw himself. He was older now, a man in the prime of life. His face had not the harsh and rigid lines of later years, but it had begun to wear the signs of care and avarice.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
there was an eager, greedy, restless motion in the eye which showed the passion that had taken root and where the shadow of the growing tree would fall. Oh, there would be no more Fezziwig now. What Ebenezer is going to see now is not nearly as heartwarming. Oh no, not at all. The spirit from the past is about to show Ebenezer himself as a young adult. He's with a young woman named Belle.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
His fiancée, in fact. She had once loved him. But she is going to tell him he has changed. For he has a new mistress. Money. But I'm getting ahead of myself. Here again, the words of Charles Dickens. He was not alone, but sat by the side of a fair young girl in a mourning dress, in whose eyes there were tears which sparkled in the light that shone out of the ghost of Christmas past.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
It matters little, she said softly, to you very little. Another idol has displaced me, and if it can cheer and comfort you in time to come, as I would have tried to do, I have no just cause to grieve. What idol has displaced you, he rejoined? A golden one. This is the even-handed dealing of the world, he said.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
There is nothing on which it is so hard as poverty, and there is nothing it professes to condemn with such severity as the pursuit of wealth. You fear the world too much, she answered gently. All your other hopes have merged into the hope of being beyond the chance of its sordid reproach.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
The more he thought, the more perplexed he was, and the more he endeavored not to think, the more he thought. Marley's ghost bothered him exceedingly. Every time he resolved within himself after mature inquiry that it was all a dream, his mind flew back again like a strong spring released to its first position and presented the same problem to be worked all through. Was it a dream or not?
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
I have seen your nobler aspirations fall off one by one until the master passion gain engrosses you, have I not? What then, he retorted, even if I have grown so much wiser, what then? I am not changed toward you. She shook her head. Am I? Our contract is an old one.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
It was made when we were both poor and content to be so, until in good season we could improve our worldly fortune by our patient industry. You are changed. When it was made, you were another man. I was a boy, he said impatiently. Your own feeling tells you that you were not what you are, she returned. I am?
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
That which promised happiness when we were one in heart is fraught with misery now that we are two. How often and how keenly have I thought of this, I will not say. It is enough that I have thought of it and can release you. Have I ever sought release? In words, no, never. In what, then? In a changed nature, in an altered spirit, in another atmosphere of life, another hope as its great end.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
In everything that made my love any worth or value in your sight, if this had never been between us, said the girl, looking mildly but with steadiness upon him. Tell me, would you seek me out and try to win me now? Oh, no. He seemed to yield to the justice of this supposition in spite of himself, but he said, with a struggle, You think not. I would gladly think otherwise if I could, she answered.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
Heaven knows. When I have learned a truth like this, I know how strong and irresistible it must be. But if you were free today, tomorrow, yesterday, can even I believe that you would choose a dowerless girl, you who in your very confidence with her, weighing everything by gain, or choosing her, if for a moment you were false enough to your one guiding principle to do so?
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
Do I not know that your repentance and regret would surely follow? I do. and I release you with a full heart for the love of him you once were." He was about to speak, but with her head turned from him, she resumed.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
You may, in the memory of what is past, have, makes me hope you will, have pain in this, a very, very brief time, and you will dismiss the recollection of it gladly as an unprofitable dream from which it happened well that you awoke. May you be happy in the life you've chosen. She left him, and they parted. Spirit, said Scrooge, show me no more.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
Why do you delight to torture me? One shadow more, exclaimed the ghost.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
But the relentless ghost pinioned him in both his arms and forced him to observe what happened next. They were in another scene and place, a room not very large or handsome, but full of comfort. Near to the winter fire sat a beautiful young girl, so like that last that Scrooge believed it was the same, until he saw her, now a comely matron, sitting opposite her daughter.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
The noise in this room was perfectly tumultuous, for there were more children there than Scrooge in his agitated state of mind could count. The consequences were uproarious beyond belief, but no one seemed to care. On the contrary, the mother and daughter laughed heartily and enjoyed it very much.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
And the latter, soon beginning to mingle in the sports, got pillaged by the young brigands most ruthlessly. but I would not have given to be one of them.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
But now a knocking at the door was heard, and such a rush immediately ensued that she, with laughing face and plundered dress, was borne toward it in the center of a flushed and boisterous group, just in time to greet the father, who came home attended by a man laden with Christmas toys and presents.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
Scrooge lay in this state until the chime had gone three quarters more, when he remembered, on a sudden, that the ghost had warned him of a visitation when the bell tolled one. He resolved to lie awake until the hour was past. He was more than once convinced he must have sunk into a doze unconsciously and missed the clock, but at length it broke upon his listening ear.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
I'm Keith Morrison, and this is episode two of A Christmas Carol. Old Ebenezer Scrooge has just had the fright of his life. He's been visited by the ghost of his old business partner, Jacob Marley. Miley tells Scrooge he's been roaming the earth since the very day of his death, haunted by his own story of stinginess and greed. He'd like to change it all, but it's too late now.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
Then the shouting and the struggling and the onslaught that was made on that defenseless porter, the scaling him with chairs for ladders to dive into his pockets to spoil him of brown paper parcels, hold on tight by his cravat, hug him round his neck, pummel his back, kick his legs in irrepressible affection.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
The shouts of wonder and delight with which the development of every package was received. The terrible announcement that the baby had been taken in the act of putting a doll's frying pan into his mouth and was more than suspected of having swallowed a fictitious turkey glued on a wooden platter. The immense relief of finding this was a false alarm.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
The joy and gratitude and ecstasy, they are all indescribable alike. It is enough that by degrees the children and their emotions got out of the parlor and by one stare at a time up to the top of the house where they went to bed and so subsided.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
And now Scrooge looked on more attentively than ever when the master of the house, having his daughter leaning fondly on him, sat down with her and her mother at his own fireside. And when he thought that such another creature quite as graceful and as full of promise might have called him father, and had been a springtime in the haggard winter of his life, his sight grew very dim indeed.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
"'Bell,' said the husband, turning to his wife with a smile, "'I saw an old friend of yours this afternoon.' "'Who was it?' "'Guess.' How can I? I don't know, she added in the same breath, laughing as he laughed. Mr. Scrooge! Mr. Scrooge it was. I passed his office window, as it was not shut up, and he had a candle inside. I could scarcely help seeing him.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
His partner lies upon the point of death, I hear. And there he sat, alone, quite alone in the world, I do believe. Spirit, said Scrooge in a broken voice, remove me from this place. I told you these were shadows of the things that have been, said the ghost. That they are what they are, do not blame me. Remove me, Scrooge exclaimed. I cannot bear it.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
He turned upon the ghost, and seeing that it looked upon him with a face in which, in some strange way, there were fragments of all the faces it had shown him, wrestled with it. Leave me. Take me back. Haunt me no more. He was conscious of being exhausted and overcome by an irresistible drowsiness. and further, of being in his own bedroom.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
His hand relaxed and had barely time to reel to bed before he sank into a heavy sleep. He sees it now, to Scrooge, the happiness that could have been his if only he thought less of his wallet and more of his heart. But his torments are not over. They are just beginning.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
The hour itself, said Scrooge triumphantly, and nothing else. He spoke before the hour bell sounded, which now it did, with a deep, dull, hollow, melancholy one. Light flashed up in the room upon the instant, and the curtains of his bed were drawn aside, I tell you, by a hand. Not the curtains at his feet, nor the curtains at his back, but those to which his face was addressed.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
The curtains of his bed were drawn aside, and Scrooge found himself face to face with the unearthly visitor who drew them. It was a strange figure, like a child, yet not so like a child as like an old man, viewed through some supernatural medium which gave him the appearance of having receded from the view and being... diminished to a child's proportions.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
Its hair, which hung about its neck and down its back, was white as if with age, and yet the face had not a wrinkle in it, and the tenderest bloom was on the skin. The arms were very long and muscular, the hands the same, as if its hold were of uncommon strength. It wore a tunic of the purest white, and round its waist was bound a lustrous belt, the sheen of which was beautiful.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
And he warns Scrooge that he, too, is destined for a tortured afterlife if he doesn't mend his ways. As if all that isn't enough, the ghost of Marley announces that Scrooge will be visited again by three more ghosts, beginning when the clock strikes one. We pick up our story as Ebenezer wakes from a fitful sleep, confused, and, as Dickens writes, with one eye on the clock.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
It held a branch of fresh green holly in its hand, and had its dress trimmed with summer flowers. But the strangest thing about it was that from the crown of its head there sprung a bright, clear jet of light. Even this, though, when Scrooge looked at it with increasing steadiness, was not its strangest quality.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
for as its belt sparkled and glittered, now in one part and now in another, and what was light one instant and at another time was dark, so the figure itself fluctuated in its distinctness, being now a thing with one arm, now with one leg, now with twenty legs, now a pair of legs without a head,
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
no head without a body, of which dissolving parts no outline would be visible in the dense bloom wherein they melted away. And in the very wonder of this, it would be itself again, distinct and clear as ever.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
asked Scrooge. "'I am.' The voice was soft and gentle, singularly low, as if instead of being so close beside him, it were at a distance.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
Scrooge demanded. "'I am the Ghost of Christmas Past.' "'Long past?' inquired Scrooge. "'No, your past.' It put out its strong hand as it spoke and clasped him gently by the arm. Rise and walk with me. It would have been in vain for Scrooge to plead that the weather and the hour were not adapted to pedestrian purposes, that bed was warm and the thermometer a long way below freezing.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
that he was clad but lightly in his slippers and dressing gown and nightcap, and that he had a cold upon him at that time. The grass, though gentle as a woman's hand, was not to be resisted. He rose, but finding that the spirit made towards the window clasped his robe in supplication. "'I am a mortal,' Scrooge remonstrated, "'and liable to fall.'
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
Bear but a touch of my hand there, said the spirit, laying it upon his heart, and you shall be upheld in more than this. As the words were spoken, they passed through the wall and stood upon an open country road with fields on either hand. The city had entirely vanished. Not a vestige of it was to be seen.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
The darkness and the mist had vanished with it, for it was a clear, cold winter day with snow upon the ground. "'Good heaven!' said Scrooge, clasping his hands together as he looked about him. "'I was bred in this place. I was a boy here.' The spirit gazed upon him mildly. Its gentle touch, though it had been light and instantaneous, appeared still present to the old man's sense of feeling.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
He was conscious of a thousand odors floating in the air, each one connected with a thousand thoughts and hopes and joys and cares long, long forgotten. "'Your lip is trembling,' said the ghost. "'And what is that upon your cheek?' Scrooge muttered with an unusual catching in his voice that it was a pimple, and begged the ghost to lead him where he would.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
You recollect the way, inquired the spirit. Remember it, cried Scrooge with fervor. I could walk it blindfolded. Could it be that Ebenezer actually possesses feelings after all, and a visit to his boyhood home would suddenly warm the coldest of hearts? Oh, if only it were that simple. They walked along the road, Scrooge recognizing every gate and post and tree.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
until a little market town appeared in the distance with its bridge, its church, and winding river. Some shaggy ponies now were seen trotting toward them with boys on their backs who called to other boys in country gigs in carts driven by farmers. All these boys were in great spirits and shouted to each other until the broad fields were so full of merry music that the crisp air laughed to hear it.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
These are but shadows of the things that have been, said the ghost. They have no consciousness of us. The happy travelers came on, and as they came Scrooge knew and named every one of them. Why was he rejoiced beyond all bounds to see them? Why did his cold eye glisten and his heart leap up as they went past?
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
Why was he filled with gladness when he heard them give each other Merry Christmas as they parted at crossroads and byways for their several homes? What was Merry Christmas to Scrooge? What good had it ever done to him? The school is not quite deserted, said the ghost. A solitary child, neglected by his friends, is left there still, Scrooge said he knew it, and he sobbed.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
When Scrooge awoke, it was so dark that, looking out of bed, he could scarcely distinguish the transparent window from the opaque walls of his chamber. He was endeavoring to pierce the darkness with his ferret eyes when chimes of a neighboring church struck the four quarters. So he listened for the hour.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
They left the high road by a well-remembered lane and soon approached a mansion of dull red brick with a little weather-cock surmounted tubula on the roof and a bell hanging in it. It was a large house, but one of broken fortunes, for the spacious rooms were little used, their walls were damp and mossy, their windows broken, and their gates decayed.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
Fowls clucked and strutted in the stables, and the coach-houses and sheds were overrun with grass. Entering the dreary hall, and glancing through the open doors of many rooms, they found them poorly furnished, cold, vast. There was an earthy savour in the air, a chilly bareness in the place. which associated itself somehow with too much getting up by candlelight and not too much to eat.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
They went, the ghost and Scrooge, across the hall to a door at the back of the house. It opened before them and disclosed a long, bare, melancholy room. A lonely boy was reading near a feeble fire. and Scrooge wept to see his poor, forgotten self as he used to be.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
The spirit touched him on the arm and pointed to his younger self, intent upon his reading, and suddenly a man in foreign garments, wonderfully real and distinct to look at, stood outside the window with an axe stuck in his belt and, leading by the bridle, a donkey laden with wood. Why, it's Ali Baba, Scrooge exclaimed in ecstasy. It's dear old honest Ali Baba. Yes, yes, I know.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
One Christmas time when yonder solitary child was left here all alone, he did come for the first time just like that. To hear Scrooge expending all the earnestness of his nature on such subjects in a most extraordinary voice between laughing and crying... And to see his heightened and excited face would have been a surprise to his business friends in the city, indeed. "'There's the parrot!'
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
cried Scrooge, green body and yellow tail, with a thing like a lettuce growing out of the top of its head. "'There he is!' "'Poor Robin Crusoe,' he called him, when he came home again after sailing round the island.' Then, with a rapidity of transition very foreign to his usual character, he said, in pity of his former self, Poor boy! and cried again.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
I wish... Scrooge muttered, putting his hand in his pocket and looking about him after drying his eyes with his cuff. But it's too late now. "'What is the matter?' asked the spirit. "'Nothing,' said Scrooge, "'nothing. There was a boy singing a Christmas carol at my door last night, and I should like to have given him something, that's all.'
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
The ghost smiled thoughtfully and waved its hand, saying as it did so, "'Let us see another Christmas.' Scrooge's former self grew larger at the words, and the room became a little darker and more dirty. The panels shrunk, the windows cracked, fragments of plaster fell out of the ceiling. How all this was brought about Scrooge knew no more than you do.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
To his great astonishment, the heavy bell went on from six to seven and from seven to eight, and regularly up to twelve, and then stopped. Twelve? It was past two when he went to bed. The clock was wrong. An icicle must have gotten into the works. Twelve? Why, it isn't possible, said Scrooge, that I can have slept through a whole day and far into another night.
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A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
He only knew that it was quite correct, that everything had happened so. that there he was, alone again, when all the other boys had gone home for the jolly holidays. He was not reading now, but walking up and down, despairingly. Scrooge looked at the ghost, and with a mournful shaking of his head, glanced anxiously toward the door. It opened.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
And the little girl, much younger than the boy, came darting in and putting her arms about his neck and often kissing him, addressed him as her dear, dear brother. I have come to bring you home, dear brother, said the child, clapping her tiny hands and bending down to laugh, to bring you home, home, home.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
returned the boy. "'Yes,' said the child, brimful of glee. "'Home for good and all, home for ever and ever. Father is so much kinder than he used to be, that home's like heaven.' He spoke to me gently one dear night when I was going to bed, that I was not afraid to ask him once more if you might come home, and he said, "'Yes, you should.'
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: The First of the Three Spirits
and sent me and a coach to bring you, and you're to be a man," said the child, opening her eyes, and are never to come back here again. But first we're to be together all the Christmas long and have the merriest time in the world." "'You are quite a woman, little fan,' exclaimed the boy."
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
And then let any man explain to me, if he can, how it happened that Scrooge, having his key in the lock of the door, saw in the knocker, without its undergoing any intermediate process of change, not a knocker, but Marley's face. It was not in impenetrable shadow, as the other objects in the yard were, but had a dismal light about it.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
It was not angry or ferocious, but looked at Scrooge as Marley used to look, with ghostly spectacles turned up on its ghostly forehead. The hair was curiously stirred, as if by breath or hot air. And though the eyes were wide open, They were perfectly motionless. That, and its livid color, made it horrible. As Scrooge looked fixedly at this phenomenon, it was a knocker again.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
To say that he was not startled or that his blood was not conscious of a terrible sensation would be untrue. But he put his hand upon the key he had relinquished, turned it sturdily, walked in and lighted his candle.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
He did pause for the moment's irresolution before he shut the door, and he did look cautiously behind at first as if he had expected to be terrified with the sight of Marley's pigtail sticking out into the hall. But there was nothing on the back of the door except the screws and nuts that held the knocker on. So he said, poo-poo, and closed it with a bang.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
The sound resounded through the house like thunder. But Scrooge was not a man to be frightened by echoes. He fastened the door and walked across the hall and up the stairs, slowly too, trimming his candle as he went. Darkness is cheap, and Scrooge liked it. But he walked through his rooms to see that all was right. He had just enough recollection of the face to desire to do that.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Sitting room, bedroom, lumber room, all as they should be. Nobody under the table, nobody under the sofa. A small fire in the grate, spoon and basin ready, and the little saucepan of gruel upon the stove. Nobody under the bed. Nobody in the closet. Nobody in his dressing gown, which was hanging up in a suspicious attitude against the wall. Quite satisfied, he closed his door and locked himself in.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Double locked himself in, which was not his custom. Thus secured against surprise, he took off his cravat, put on his dressing gown and slippers and his nightcap, and sat down before the fire to take his gruel. It was a very low fire indeed, nothing on such a bitter night.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
He was obliged to sit close to it and brood over it before he could extract the least sensation of warmth from such a handful of fuel. The fireplace was an old one, built by some Dutch merchant long ago, and paved all the way around with quaint Dutch tiles designed to illustrate the scriptures.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
There were canes and ables and pharaoh's daughters, queens of Sheba, hundreds of figures to attract his thoughts. And yet that face of Marley, seven years dead, came like the ancient prophet's rod and swallowed up the whole. Humbug, said Scrooge, and walked across the room. After several turns, he sat down again.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
As he threw his head back in the chair, his glance happened to rest upon a bell, a disused bell that hung in the room. It was with great astonishment now, and with a strange inexplicable dread, that as he looked he saw this bell begin to swing. It swung so softly in the outset that it scarcely made a sound, but soon it rang out loudly, and so did every bell in the house.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
In fact, it's thoughts of Marley that begin Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol. Marley was dead, to begin with. There was no doubt whatever about that. The register of his burial was signed by the clergyman, the clerk, the undertaker, the chief mourner. Scrooge signed it. And Scrooge's name was good for anything he chose to put his hand to. Old Marley was as dead as a doornail.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
This might have lasted half a minute, or a minute, but it seemed an hour. The bells ceased as they had begun. Together, they were succeeded by a clanking noise deep down below, as if some person were dragging a heavy chain. The cellar door flew open with a booming sound, and then he heard the noise much louder on the floors below, then coming up the stairs, then coming straight toward his door.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
It's humbug still, said Scrooge. I won't believe it. His color changed, though, when, without a pause, it came on through the heavy door and passed into the room before his eyes. Upon its coming in, the dying flame leaped up as though it cried, I know him, Marley's ghost, and fell again. The same face, the very same. Marley in his pigtail, waistcoat, tights, and boots,
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
The chain he drew was clasped about his middle. It was long and wound about him like a tail. And it was made, for Scrooge observed it closely, of cash boxes, keys, padlocks, ledgers, deeds, and heavy purses wrought in steel. His body was transparent, so that Scrooge, observing him and looking through his waistcoat, could see the two buttons on his coat behind.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Though he looked the Phantom through and through and saw it standing before him, though he felt the chilling influence of its death-cold eyes, he was still incredulous and fought against his senses. How now, said Scrooge, caustic and cold as ever, what do you want with me? Much? Marley's voice, no doubt about it. Who are you? Ask me who I was? Who were you then, said Scrooge, raising his voice.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
In life, I was your partner, Jacob Marley. Christmas Eve, and Ebenezer Scrooge is face to face with the ghost of his old partner, Jacob Marley. The ghost is weighed down with the paraphernalia of their greedy money lending business. Old ledgers and money boxes and padlocks and keys. In life, Marley had been every bit as cheap and nasty as Scrooge. What could he want now in death?
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Our story continues. "'Shall you sit down?' asked Scrooge, looking doubtfully at him. "'I can.' "'Do it, then.' Scrooge asked the question because he didn't know whether a ghost so transparent might find himself in a condition to take a chair, and felt that in the event of its being impossible it might involve the necessity of an embarrassing explanation."
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
but the ghost sat down on the opposite side of the fireplace as if he was quite used to it. You don't believe in me, observed the ghost. I don't, said Scrooge. What evidence would you have of my reality beyond that of your senses? I don't know, said Scrooge. Why do you doubt your senses? Because, said Scrooge, A little thing affects them. A slight disorder of the stomach makes them cheat.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
You may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato. There's more of gravy than of grave about you, whatever you are. Scrooge was not much in the habit of cracking jokes, nor did he feel in his heart by any means waggish then. The truth is that he tried to be smart as a means of distracting his own attention and keeping down his terror.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
The ghost's voice disturbed the very marrow of his bones. To sit staring at those fixed glazed eyes in silence for a moment would play Scrooge felt the very deuce with him. There was something very awful, too, in the spectres being provided with an infernal atmosphere of its own.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Scrooge could not feel it himself, but this was clearly the case, for though the ghost sat perfectly motionless, its hair and skirts and tassels were all still agitated as if by the hot vapour from an oven. Do you see this toothpick?
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
said Scrooge, returning quickly to the charge for the reason just assigned, and wishing, though it were only for a second, to divert Division's stony gaze from himself. "'I do,' replied the ghost. "'You're not looking at it,' said Scrooge. "'But I see it,' said the ghost, notwithstanding. "'Well,' returned Scrooge,
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
I have to but swallow this and be for the rest of my days persecuted by a legion of goblins, all of my own creation. Humbug, I tell you, humbug!" The spirit raised a frightful cry and shook its chain with such a dismal and appalling noise that Scrooge held on tight to his chair to save himself from falling in a swoon.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Scrooge and he were partners for I don't know how many years. Scrooge was his sole executor, his sole administrator, his sole assign, his sole friend, and his sole mourner. And even Scrooge was not so dreadfully cut up by the sad event. Scrooge never painted out old Marley's name. There it stood, years afterwards, above the warehouse door, Scrooge and Marley,
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
But how much greater was his horror when the phantom, taking off the bandage round its head as if it were too warm to wear indoors, its lower jaw dropped down upon its breast. Scrooge fell upon his knees and clasped his hands before his face. Mercy, he said. Dreadful apparition, why do you trouble me? Man of the worldly mind, replied the ghost. or not?" "'I do,' said Scrooge. "'I must.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
But why do spirits walk the earth, and why do they come to me?' "'It is required of every man,' the ghost returned, "'that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow men, and travel far and wide. And if that spirit does not go forth in life, it is condemned to do so after death.' It is doomed to wander through the world.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Oh, woe is me, and witness what it cannot share, but might have shared on earth and turned to happiness. Again the spectre raised a cry and shook its chain and wrung its shadowy hands. You are fettered, said Scrooge, trembling. Tell me why. I wear the chain I forged in life, replied the ghost. I made it, link by link, and yard by yard.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
I girded it on of my own free will, and of my own free will I wore it. Is its pattern strange to you?" Scrooge trembled more and more. Or would you know, pursued the Ghost, the weight and length of the strong coil you bear yourself? It was full, as heavy, and as long as this, seven Christmas Eves ago. You've labored on it since. It's a ponderous chain.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Scrooge glanced about him on the floor, in the expectation of finding himself surrounded by some fifty or sixty fathoms of iron cable. But he could see nothing. Jacob, he said imploringly, old Jacob Marley, tell me more. Speak comfort to me, Jacob. I have none to give, the ghost replied. I cannot rest. I cannot stay. I cannot linger anywhere. My spirit never walked beyond our counting house.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Mark me. In my life, my spirit never roved beyond the narrow limits of our money-changing hole. And weary journeys lie before me. It was a habit with Scrooge, whenever he became thoughtful, to put his hands in his pants' pockets. Wondering on what the ghost had said, he did so now, but without lifting up his eyes or getting off his knees.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
You must have been very slow about it, Jacob, Scrooge observed in a businesslike manner, though with humility and deference. Slow, the ghost repeated. Seven years dead, used Scrooge, and traveling all the time. The whole time, said the ghost, no rest, no peace, incessant torture of remorse.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Oh, captive-bound and double-ironed, cried the phantom, no space of regret can make amends for one's life's opportunity misused. Yet such was I, oh, such was I. But you were always a good man of business, Jacob, faltered Scrooge, who now began to apply this to himself. Business, cried the ghost, wringing his hands again. Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence were all my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business." It held up its chain at arm's length, as if that were the cause of all its unavailing grief, and flung it heavily upon the ground again. At this time of the rolling year, the ghost said, I suffer most.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Sometimes people new to the business called Scrooge Scrooge, and sometimes Marley. But he answered to both names. It was all the same to him. Oh, but he was a tight-fisted hand to the grindstone, Scrooge. A squeezing, wrenching, grasping, scraping, clutching, covetous old sinner. Hard and sharp as flint. Secret and self-contained and solitary as an oyster.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Why did I walk through crowds of fellow beings with my eyes turned down and never raise them to that blessed star which led the wise men to a poor abode? were there no poor homes to which its light would have conducted me. Scrooge was very much dismayed to hear the spectre going on at this rate, and began to quake exceedingly. Hear me, cried the Ghost, my time is nearly gone.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
I will, said Scrooge, but don't be hard upon me, don't be flowery, Jacob, pray. How is it that I appear before you in a shape you can see I may not tell? I have sat invisible beside you many and many a day. It was not an agreeable idea. Scrooge shivered and wiped the perspiration from his brow.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
I am here tonight to warn you that you have yet a chance and hope of escaping my fate, a chance and hope of my procuring, Ebenezer." "'You were always a good friend to me,' said Scrooge. "'Thank you.' "'You will be haunted,' resumed the Ghost by three spirits." Scrooge's countenance fell almost as low as the Ghost's had done. Is that the chance and hope you mentioned, Jacob?
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
he demanded in a faltering voice. It is. I think I'd rather not, said Scrooge. Without their visit, said the ghost, you cannot hope to shun the path I tread. Expect the first tomorrow when the bell tolls one. Couldn't I take them all at once and have it over, Jacob? ended Scrooge.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Expect the second on the next night at the same hour, the third upon the next night when the last stroke of twelve has ceased to vibrate. Look to see me no more, and look that for your own sake you remember what has passed between us. When it had said these words, the spectre took its wrapper from the table and bound it round its head as before.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Scrooge knew this by the smart sound its teeth made when the jaws were brought together by the bandage. He ventured to raise his eyes again and found his supernatural visitor confronting him in an erect attitude with its chain wound over and about its arm.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
The apparition walked backward from him and at every step it took the window raised itself a little so that when the ghost reached it it was wide open It beckoned Scrooge to approach, which he did. When they were within two paces of each other, Marley's ghost held up its hand, warning him to come no nearer.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Scrooge stopped, not so much in obedience as in surprise and fear, for on the raising of the hand he became sensible of confused noises in the air, incoherent sounds of lamentation and regret. wailings inexpressibly sorrowful and self-accusatory. The spectre, after listening for a moment, joined in the mournful dirge and floated out upon the bleak, dark night. Scrooge followed to the window.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Desperate in his curiosity, he looked out. The air was filled with phantoms, wandering hither and thither in restless haste, and moaning as they went. Every one of them wore chains like Marley's ghost. Some few, they might be guilty governments, were linked together. None were freed. Many had been personally known to Scrooge in their lives.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
He had been quite familiar with one old ghost in a white waistcoat with a monstrous iron safe attached to his ankle, who cried piteously at being unable to assist a wretched woman with an infant whom it saw below upon a doorstep. The misery with them all was clearly... that they sought to interfere for good in human matters and had lost the power forever.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
The cold within him froze his old features, nipped his pointed nose, shriveled his cheek, stiffened his gait, made his eyes red, his thin lips blue, and spoke out shrewdly in his grating voice. Nobody ever stopped him in the street to say with gladsome looks, My dear Scrooge, how are you? When will you come to see me? No beggars implored him to bestow a trifle.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Whether these creatures faded into mist or mist enshrouded them he could not tell, but they and their spirit voices faded together, and the night became as it had been when he walked home. Scrooge closed the window and examined the door by which the ghost had entered. It was double-locked, as he had locked it with his own hands, and the bolts were undisturbed. He tried to say, "'A bug!'
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
but stopped at the first syllable. And being from the emotion he had undergone, or the fatigues of the day, or his glimpse of the invisible world, or the dull conversation of the ghost, or the lateness of the hour, much in need of repose— He went straight to bed without undressing and fell asleep upon the instant. Exhausted by his ghostly encounter, Scrooge has collapsed into bed.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
You'll need his rest because the most stubbornly mean man in all of London is about to take a journey to a terrible place, his own life.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
No children asked him what it was o'clock. No man or woman ever once in all his life inquired the way to such and such a place of Scrooge. But what did Scrooge care? It was the very thing he liked, to edge his way along the crowded paths of life, warning all human sympathy to keep its distance.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Once upon a time, of all the good days of the year on Christmas Eve, old Scrooge sat busy in his counting house. It was cold, bleak, biting weather, foggy, and he could hear the people in the court outside go wheezing up and down, beating their hands upon their breasts and stamping their feet upon the pavement stones to warm them.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
The city clocks had only just gone three, but it was quite dark already, and candles were flaring in the windows of the neighboring offices like ruddy smears upon the palpable brown air. The fog came pouring in at every chink and keyhole and was so dense that although the court was the narrowest, the houses opposite were mere phantoms. The door of Scrooge's counting house was open.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
that he might keep his eye upon his clerk, who in a dismal little cell beyond was copying letters. Scrooge had a very small fire, but the clerk's fire was so very much smaller that it looked like one coal, but he couldn't replenish it for Scrooge kept the coal box in his own room. Wherefore, the clerk put on his white comforter and tried to warm himself at the candle.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
This nasty piece of work will get his comeuppance in the most unexpected and satisfying way. I'm speaking, of course, of Ebenezer Scrooge. I'm Keith Morrison, and this is Season 2 of Morrison Mysteries. Our story is set in the 1840s, London, England. It's winter, cold and bleak, but it's Christmas Eve.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
in which effort, not being a man of strong imagination, he failed. A Merry Christmas, Uncle! God save you! cried a cheerful voice. It was the voice of Scrooge's nephew, who came upon him so quickly that this was the first intimation he had of his approach. Bah! said Scrooge. Humbug! He had so heated himself with rapid walking in the fog and frost, this nephew of Scrooge's, that he was all aglow.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
His face was ruddy and handsome. His eyes sparkled. "'Christmas a humbug, uncle,' said Scrooge's nephew. "'You don't mean that, I'm sure.' "'I do,' said Scrooge. "'Merry Christmas? What right have you to be merry? What reason have you to be merry? You're poor enough.' Come then, returned the nephew gaily, what right have you to be dismal? What reason have you to be morose? You're rich enough.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
He may just be the meanest Christmas villain of all time. A man who counts his money while children starve. Who mocks the sick and begrudges his most loyal friends even the tiniest bit of happiness. Oh, yes, he's the OG of bad guys. All right. Darth Vader, the Grinch Voldemort, all rolled into one evil lump of a man. But just you wait.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Scrooge, having no better answer ready on the spur of the moment, said, Bah! again, and followed it up with a bug. Don't be cross, uncle, said the nephew. What else can I be, returned the uncle, when I live in such a world of fools as this? Merry Christmas? Out with Merry Christmas!
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
What's Christmas time to you but a time for paying bills without money, a time for finding yourself a year older but not an hour richer? If I could work my will, said Scrooge indignantly, Every idiot who goes about with Merry Christmas on his lips should be boiled with his own pudding and buried with a stake of holly through his heart. He should. Uncle, pleaded the nephew.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Nephew, returned the uncle sternly. Keep Christmas in your own way and let me keep it in mine. But I have always thought of Christmas, said the nephew, as a good time. A kind, forgiving, charitable, pleasant time. The only time I know of in the long calendar of the year when men and women seem by one consent to open their shut-up hearts freely.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
To think of people below them as if they really were a fellow passenger to the grave and not just another race of creatures bound on other journeys. And therefore, uncle, though it has never put a scrap of gold or silver in my pocket, I believe it's done me good and will do me good. And I say, God bless it. The clerk, involuntarily, applauded.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
And then, becoming immediately sensible of the impropriety, he poked the fire and extinguished the last frail spark forever. Let me hear another sound from you, said Scrooge, and you'll keep your Christmas by losing your situation. Don't be angry, Uncle. Come, dine with us tomorrow, said the nephew. Why did you get married, said Scrooge? Because I fell in love.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Because you fell in love, growled Scrooge, as if that were the only one thing in the world more ridiculous than a Merry Christmas. Good afternoon. Nay, uncle, but you never came to see me before that happened. Why give it as a reason for not coming now? Good afternoon, said Scrooge. I want nothing from you. I ask nothing of you. Why can't we be friends? Good afternoon, said Scrooge.
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
I am sorry with all my heart to find you so resolute. We've never had any quarrel, to which I've been a party. But I've made the trial an homage to Christmas. and I'll keep my Christmas humor to the last. So, a Merry Christmas, Uncle. Good afternoon, said Scrooge. And a Happy New Year. Good afternoon, said Scrooge. His nephew left the room without an angry word, notwithstanding.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
He stopped at the outer door to bestow the greetings of the season on the clerk, who, cold as he was, was warmer than Scrooge, for he returned them cordially. There's another fellow, muttered Scrooge, who overheard him. My clerk was fifteen shillings a week and a wife and family, talking about a merry Christmas. The clerk, in letting Scrooge's nephew out, had let two other people in.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
They were porkly gentlemen, pleasant to behold, and now stood with their hats off in Scrooge's office. They had books and papers in their hands, and they bowed to him. Scrooge and Marley's, I believe, said one of the gentlemen, referring to his list. Have I the pleasure of addressing Mr. Scrooge or Mr. Marley? Mr. Marley has been dead these seven years, Scrooge replied.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
He died seven years ago this very night. "'At this festive season of the year, Mr. Scrooge,' said the gentleman, taking up a pen, "'it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the poor and the destitute who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessities. Hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir.'
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
The warmth and joy of the season of giving permeate the gray fog of the city in all places, but one, the tiny shriveled heart of Ebenezer Scrooge. As we begin, Scrooge is sitting in his office, barking orders at his kind-hearted clerk, Bob Cratchit, who's only hoping to have Christmas Day off to spend time with his family, especially his desperately ill son, Tiny Tim.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
"'Are there no prisons?' asked Scrooge. "'Plenty of prisons,' said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.' "'And the union workhouses?' demanded Scrooge. "'Are they still in operation?' "'They are. Still,' returned the gentleman. "'I wish I could say they were not. "'A few of us are endeavoring to raise a fund "'to buy the poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth.'
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A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
We choose this time because it's a time of all others when want is keenly felt and abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?" "'Nothing,' Scrooge replied. "'You wish to be anonymous?' "'I wish to be left alone,' said Scrooge. "'Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make myself merry at Christmas, and I can't afford to make idle people merry.'
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
I help to support the establishments I have mentioned, and they cost enough. Those who are badly off must go there. Many can't go there, and many would rather die. If they would rather die, said Scrooge, they'd better do it and decrease the surplus population. It's not my business. It's enough for a man to understand his own business and not to interfere with other people's.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Mine occupies me constantly. Good afternoon, gentlemen. Seeing clearly that it would be useless to pursue their point, the gentlemen withdrew. Meanwhile, the fog and darkness thickened. The cold became intense. Piercing, searching, biting cold. The owner of one cold young nose stooped down at Scrooge's keyhole to regale him with a Christmas carol.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
But at the first sound of, God bless you, merry gentlemen, let nothing you dismay, Scrooge seized the ruler with such an energy of action that the singer fled in terror, leaving the keyhole to the fog and the frost. At length, the hour of shutting up the counting house arrived.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
With an ill will, Scrooge dismounted from his stool and tacitly admitted the fact to the expectant clerk, who instantly snuffed his candle out and put on his hat. "'You'll want all day to-morrow, I suppose,' said Scrooge. "'If quite convenient, sir.' "'It's not convenient,' said Scrooge, "'and it's not fair. If I was to stop half a crown for it, you'd think yourself ill-used, I'll be bound.'
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Clerk smiled faintly. And yet, said Scrooge, you don't think me ill-used when I pay a day's wages for no work? Clerk observed that that was only once a year. A poor excuse for picking a man's pocket every 25th of December, said Scrooge, buttoning his great coat to the chin. But I suppose you must have the whole day. Be here all the earlier the next morning.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
The clerk promised that he would, and Scrooge walked out with a growl. And so kindly Bob Cratchit has been given Christmas Day off and rushes home to be with his family. Scrooge is also on his way home, miserable as ever. But if he thinks Christmas has made him unhappy, well, he has no idea.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
Scrooge took his melancholy dinner in his usual melancholy tavern, and having read all the newspapers and beguiled the rest of the evening with his banker's book, went home to bed. He lived in chambers which had once belonged to his deceased partner.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
They were a gloomy suite of rooms in a lowering pile of building up a yard, where it had so little business to be that one could scarcely help fancying it must have run there when it was a young house, playing hide-and-seek with other houses, and forgotten the way out again. It was old enough now. and dreary enough, for nobody lived in it but Scrooge.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
The yard was so dark that even Scrooge, who knew its every stone, was fain to grope with his hands. The fog and frost so hung about the black old gateway of the house that it seemed as if the genius of the weather sat in mournful meditation on the threshold. Now, it's a fact that there was nothing at all particular about the knocker on the door, except that it was very large.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
But loathsome Scrooge doesn't give a thought to any of that, no. Cratchit's family means nothing to Scrooge, and Christmas... a passing annoyance, a waste of valuable time. Yes, in meanness, Scrooge was second to none, except just possibly to his old business partner, the greedy Jacob Marley, who'd pinched his last penny and died seven years before the Christmas Eve of our story.
Dateline NBC
A Christmas Carol: Marley’s Ghost
It's also a fact that Scrooge had seen it night and morning during his whole residency in that place. Let it also be borne in mind that Scrooge had not bestowed one thought on Marley since his last mention of his seven years dead partner that afternoon.
Dateline NBC
Dateline Presents: Murder in the Moonlight
Hi, I'm Keith Morrison from Dateline NBC. Here's a special preview of our new podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. It was late past midnight. The moon was nearly full, and its pale ghost lights spread across the great, dark Nebraska plains. Not quite enough to see much of anything. The moon had no competition, not out here, so far from the polluting light of a city or town of any size.
Dateline NBC
Dateline Presents: Murder in the Moonlight
One of them made a decision. They would not enter through the front door as family would, but in quick order, they found a window unlocked. So here it was, the way inside. No turning back now. This is a story about fear.
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Dateline Presents: Murder in the Moonlight
The fight, flight, or freeze kind of fear that grabs you by the throat. So there was a real, genuine itch in your back that somebody was going to come after you. Come after me? Come after my family? And it's a story about certainty. I'm going to do my level best to hang your ass from the highest tree. Certainty, right or wrong.
Dateline NBC
Dateline Presents: Murder in the Moonlight
And it's about a secret hidden far, far away and all but forgotten. A secret that waited for the one who could find the golden key. I'm Keith Morrison, and this is Dateline's newest podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. Thank you for listening. Search for Murder in the Moonlight to hear the full episode now, completely free.
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Dateline Presents: Murder in the Moonlight
Or subscribe to Dateline Premium on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to get early access to new episodes and to listen ad-free.
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Dateline Presents: Murder in the Moonlight
A few farm buildings caught in the muted glow through black moon shadows, and all around was silence. Almost. It was a pickup truck by the sound of it, tires crunching over gravel, headlights poking at the night along the country road, as if the driver was looking for something. And there it was, rising out of the dark. A farmhouse. The pickup slowed down, turned in.
Dateline NBC
Dateline Presents: Murder in the Moonlight
The driver looked at his companion. This was the place. They gathered up their tools, got out, gently, gently shut the truck's doors, and walked across the yard. It was a big two-story place. Old, established. Even in the moonlight, it showed off a little. Like people cared about this house, about appearances. Was anyone home? Maybe, maybe not. No sign of life, no movement inside. No dog barked.
Dateline NBC
Introducing: Murder in the Moonlight
Maybe he was lying to you. Not a chance. If anyone could figure it out. It was this and then it was that and then it was this and then it was that. When a top lawman was caught in a lie. You wake up one morning and they say you're a criminal. Well, it kind of was like that. You know, wish there was a time machine and go back in time and say, forget this ever happened.
Dateline NBC
Introducing: Murder in the Moonlight
I'm Keith Morrison, and this is Murder in the Moonlight, an all-new podcast from Dateline. You can listen to all episodes now completely free. To listen to all Dateline podcasts ad-free, subscribe to Dateline Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or datelinepremium.com.
Dateline NBC
Introducing: Murder in the Moonlight
There are verities in this great land. The simple joys of an Easter egg hunt. The family-centered traditions on a fine big farm in the heart of the Western Plains. The all but certain confidence that some places are safe from chaos and violence. Never in a million years would you think that you'd see your parents' house taped off, the farm taped off by that yellow tape.
Dateline NBC
Introducing: Murder in the Moonlight
It was a very brutal crime scene, one of the worst I've ever seen. Careful what myths you choose to rely on, like truth, for example, and the weakness that makes us think we alone have found it. Electric chair, gas, lethal injection. That's what kind of case this is. As we stumble in the dark until we hear what we need to hear. Put the gun to her face and blew it away. An inside job, apparently.
Dateline NBC
Introducing: Murder in the Moonlight
A family affair, as murder often is. You're just sitting there trying to take it all in, trying to figure out why does this happen. But sometimes, it takes a second set of eyes to see a clue missed until that moment that took a case of double murder on a long, strange trip. I said, that's like looking for a needle in a haystack. Three tiny letters, the ultimate key to a mystery.
Dateline NBC
Introducing: Murder in the Moonlight
That pretty much sends a chill down your spine. Sometimes the least likely of all things can be real. I am not kidding. And if no one believes me, then I really want to go back to myself. Truth can be hidden in strange places. She looked at me and she said, I'm screwed. And I said, you just got to tell the truth. That's all you can do at this point. If there was truth to be found.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
The original Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer by Robert L. May. "'Twas the day before Christmas, and all through the hills the reindeer were playing, enjoying the spills of skating and coasting and climbing the willows and hopscotching and leapfrogging." protected by pillows. Well, every so often they'd stop to call names of one little deer, not allowed in their games.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
Well, way, way up north, on this same foggy night, old Santa was packing his sleigh for the flight. This fog, he complained, will be hard to get through. He shook his round head and his tummy shook too. Without any stars or a moon as our compass, this extra dark night is quite likely to swamp us. To keep from collisions, we'll have to fly slow. To keep our direction, we'll have to fly low.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
We'll steer by street lamps and houses tonight in order to finish before it gets light. Just think how the boys' and girls' faith would be shaken if we didn't reach them before they awakened. Come Dasher, come Dancer, come Prancer and Vixen, come Comet, come Cupid, come Donner and Blitzen. Be quick with your suppers, get hitched in a hurry. You too will find fog and delay in a worry.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
And Santa was right, as he usually is. The fog was as thick as a soda's white fizz. Just not getting lost needed all Santa's skill, with street signs and numbers more difficult still. He tangled in treetops again and again and barely missed hitting a tri-motor plane. He still made good speed with much twisting and turning as long as the street lights and house lights were burning.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
At each house, first noting the people who lived there, he'd quickly select the right presents to give there. By midnight, however, the last light had fled, for even big people had then gone to bed. Because it might waken them, a match was denied him. Oh my, how he wished he had just one star to guide him. Through dark streets and houses, old Santa fared poorly.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
He now picked the presents more slowly, less surely. He really was worried. For what would he do if folks started waking before he was through? The air was still foggy, the night dark and drear, when Santa arrived at the home of the deer. Alleged that he tripped down while seeking the chimney, gave Santa a spill, a painfully skinned knee. The room he came down in was blacker than ink.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
He went for a chair and then found it to be a sink. The first reindeer bedroom was so very black, he tripped on the rug and fell flat on his back. So dark, he had to move close to the bed and squint very hard at the sleeping deer's head. before he could choose the right kind of toy, a doll for a girl or a train for a boy.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
But all this took time and filled Santa with gloom while slowly he groped toward the next reindeer's room, the door he'd just opened, when to his surprise, a dim but quite definite light met his eyes. The lamp wasn't burning. The glow came instead from something that lay at the head of the bed. And there lay, but wait now, what would you suppose?
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
The glowing, you've guessed it, was Rudolph's red nose. So this room was easy. This one little light let Santa pick quickly the gifts that were just right. How happy he was. till he went out the door and the rest of the house was as black as before. So black that it made every step a dark mystery. And then came the greatest idea in all history.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
Ha ha, look at Rudolph, his nose is a sight. It's red as a beet, twice as big, twice as bright. Well, Rudolph just wept. What else could he do? He knew that the things they were saying were true. where most reindeer's noses were brownish and tiny. Poor Rudolph's was red, very large, and quite shiny. In daylight, it dazzled. The picture shows that.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
He went back to Rudolph and started to shake him, of course, very gently in order to wake him. And Rudolph could scarcely believe his own eyes. You can just imagine his joy and surprise at seeing who stood there so real and so near Well, telling the tale we've already told here. Poor Santa's tale of distress and delay, the fog and the darkness of losing his way.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
The horrible fear that some children might waken before his complete Christmas trip had been taken. And you, he told Rudolph, may yet save the day. Your wonderful forehead may yet pave the way for a wonderful triumph. It actually might. Old Santa, you know, was extra polite to Rudolph regarding his wonderful forehead. To call it a shiny big nose would be horrid.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
I need you, said Santa, to help me tonight, to lead all my deer on the rest of our flight. And Rudolph broke out into such a big grin, it almost connected his ears and his chin. And note for his folks, he dashed off in a hurry. "'I've gone to help Santa,' he wrote. "'Do not worry,' said Santa. "'My sleigh I'll bring down to the lawn. You'd stick in the chimney.' And flash, he was gone."
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
The Rudolph pranced out through the door, very gay, and took his proud place at the head of the sleigh. And the rest of the night, well, what would you guess? Old Santa's idea was a brilliant success. And brilliant was almost no word for the way that Rudolph directed the deer and the sleigh.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
In spite of the fog, they flew quickly and low and made such good use of the wonderful glow from Rudolph's forehead at each intersection, but not even once did they lose their direction. Well, as for the houses and streets with a sign on them, they merely flew close so that Rudolph could shine on them.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
To tell who lived there and just what to give whom, they'd fly by each window and peek at the room. Old Santa always knew which children were good in mind of their parents, ate as they should. So Santa selected the gift that was right, while Rudolph's forehead gave just enough light It all went so fast that before it was day, the very last present was given away.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
The very last stocking was filled to the top, just as the sun was preparing to pop. This sun woke the reindeer in Rudolph's hometown. They found the short message he'd written down. Then they gathered outside to await his return.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
And were they excited, astonished, to learn that Rudolph, the ugliest deer of them all, Rudolph the Red Nose, so bashful and small, the funny-faced fellow they always called names and practically never allowed in their games, was now to be envied by all far and near. for no greater honor can come to a deer than riding with Santa and guiding his sleigh, the number one job on the number one day.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
The sleigh and its reindeer soon came into view, and Rudolph still led them. As downward they flew, and oh boy was he proud as they came to a landing, right where his handsomer playmates were standing. These bad deer who used to do nothing but tease him would now have done anything only to please him. They felt even sorrier.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
They had been bad when Santa said, Rudolph, I never have had a deer quite so brave or brilliant as you at fighting black fog and at guiding me through. By you, last night's journey was actually bossed. Without you, I'm certain we'd all have been lost. I hope you'll continue to keep us from grief on future dark trips as Commander-in-Chief.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
But Rudolph just blushed from his head to his toes until his whole fur was as red as his nose. The crowd, first applauded, then started to screech. Hooray for our Rudolph! And we want a speech! But Rudolph was bashful despite being a hero and tired. His sleep on the trip totaled zero. And that's why his speech was just brief and not bright. Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
At nighttime, it glowed like the eyes of a cat, and putting dirt on it just made it look muddy. Oh boy, was he mad when they nicknamed him Ruddy. And though he was lonesome, he always was good, obeying his parents, as a good reindeer should. And that's why, on this day, Rudolph almost felt playful.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
And that's why, whenever it's foggy and gray, it's Rudolph the Red Nose who guides Santa's sleigh. Be listening this Christmas. Don't make a peep, because that late at night, children should be asleep. The very first sound that you'll hear on the roof, provided there's fog, will be Rudolph's small hoof.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
And soon after that, if you're still as a mouse, you may hear a swish as he flies around the house and gives enough light to give Santa a view of you and your room. And when they're all through, you may hear them call as they drive out of sight. Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night. And that's Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer.
Dateline NBC
"Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer" read by Keith Morrison
He hoped that from Santa, soon driving his sleigh full of presents and candy and dollies and toys for good little animals, good girls and boys, he'd get just as much, and this is what pleased him, as the happier, handsomer reindeer who teased him. So as night and a fog hid the world like a hood, He went to bed hopeful. He knew he'd been good.
Dateline Originals
Dateline Presents: Murder in the Moonlight
Hi, I'm Keith Morrison from Dateline NBC. Here's a special preview of our new podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. It was late past midnight. The moon was nearly full, and its pale ghost lights spread across the great, dark Nebraska plains. Not quite enough to see much of anything. The moon had no competition, not out here, so far from the polluting light of a city or town of any size.
Dateline Originals
Dateline Presents: Murder in the Moonlight
One of them made a decision. They would not enter through the front door as family would, but in quick order, they found a window unlocked. So here it was, the way inside. No turning back now. This is a story about fear.
Dateline Originals
Dateline Presents: Murder in the Moonlight
The fight, flight, or freeze kind of fear that grabs you by the throat. So there was a real, genuine itch in your back that somebody was going to come after you. Come after me? Come after my family? And it's a story about certainty. I'm going to do my level best to hang your ass from the highest tree. Certainty, right or wrong.
Dateline Originals
Dateline Presents: Murder in the Moonlight
And it's about a secret hidden far, far away and all but forgotten. A secret that waited for the one who could find the golden key. I'm Keith Morrison, and this is Dateline's newest podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. Thank you for listening. Search for Murder in the Moonlight to hear the full episode now, completely free.
Dateline Originals
Dateline Presents: Murder in the Moonlight
Or subscribe to Dateline Premium on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to get early access to new episodes and to listen ad-free.
Dateline Originals
Dateline Presents: Murder in the Moonlight
A few farm buildings caught in the muted glow through black moon shadows, and all around was silence. Almost. It was a pickup truck by the sound of it, tires crunching over gravel, headlights poking at the night along the country road, as if the driver was looking for something. And there it was, rising out of the dark. A farmhouse. The pickup slowed down, turned in.
Dateline Originals
Dateline Presents: Murder in the Moonlight
The driver looked at his companion. This was the place. They gathered up their tools, got out, gently, gently shut the truck's doors, and walked across the yard. It was a big two-story place. Old, established. Even in the moonlight, it showed off a little. Like people cared about this house, about appearances. Was anyone home? Maybe, maybe not. No sign of life, no movement inside. No dog barked.
Dateline Originals
Introducing: Murder in the Moonlight
Maybe he was lying to you. Not a chance. If anyone could figure it out. It was this and then it was that and then it was this and then it was that. When a top lawman was caught in a lie. You wake up one morning and they say you're a criminal. Well, it kind of was like that. You know, wish there was a time machine and go back in time and say, forget this ever happened.
Dateline Originals
Introducing: Murder in the Moonlight
I'm Keith Morrison, and this is Murder in the Moonlight, an all-new podcast from Dateline. You can listen to all episodes now completely free. To listen to all Dateline podcasts ad-free, subscribe to Dateline Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or datelinepremium.com.
Dateline Originals
Introducing: Murder in the Moonlight
There are verities in this great land. The simple joys of an Easter egg hunt. The family-centered traditions on a fine big farm in the heart of the Western Plains. The all but certain confidence that some places are safe from chaos and violence. Never in a million years would you think that you'd see your parents' house taped off, the farm taped off by that yellow tape.
Dateline Originals
Introducing: Murder in the Moonlight
It was a very brutal crime scene, one of the worst I've ever seen. Careful what myths you choose to rely on, like truth, for example, and the weakness that makes us think we alone have found it. Electric chair, gas, lethal injection. That's what kind of case this is. As we stumble in the dark until we hear what we need to hear. Put the gun to her face and blew it away. An inside job, apparently.
Dateline Originals
Introducing: Murder in the Moonlight
A family affair, as murder often is. You're just sitting there trying to take it all in, trying to figure out why does this happen. But sometimes, it takes a second set of eyes to see a clue missed until that moment that took a case of double murder on a long, strange trip. I said, that's like looking for a needle in a haystack. Three tiny letters, the ultimate key to a mystery.
Dateline Originals
Introducing: Murder in the Moonlight
That pretty much sends a chill down your spine. Sometimes the least likely of all things can be real. I am not kidding. And if no one believes me, then I really want to go back to myself. Truth can be hidden in strange places. She looked at me and she said, I'm screwed. And I said, you just got to tell the truth. That's all you can do at this point. If there was truth to be found.
Embedded
Alternate Realities: Facing the Facts
This message comes from the Dateline original podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. Join Keith Morrison as he tells the story of a couple murdered under a pale moon and an investigation that includes four suspects and spans three states. Search Murder in the Moonlight to follow now.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
The truth about that night? After so many lies, so many versions. Here it is, said Jessica. She and Greg Fester, days without sleep or real food, had been driving aimlessly through Wisconsin and Iowa and Nebraska, breaking into homes along the way. In one, she grabbed a shotgun, a 410. So on Easter night, there they were, armed, drugged, and wired, bumping along a random country road.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
And Greg said, stop. turned out to be the Stock farmhouse, though they had no idea who lived there. But in they went through that unlocked window Fester found.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
Matt Liver's confessions were, as they say, unreliable. His attorney, Julie Baer.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
Sources close to the investigation told Dateline there is reason to believe that whether Jessica knows it or not, her shot might have been the fatal one. That it may have struck Wayne Stock in the head with evidence of the shot obliterated by another shot from Greg Fester's 12 gauge.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
But what about all those letters? The words found later in that house with Jessica's belongings, with that cigarette box? Words she wrote, boldly admitting to her crimes. I killed someone. He was older. I loved it. I wish I could do it all the time. If Greg doesn't watch it, I'm going to just leave one day and do it myself. I don't understand it.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
And people saw you, probably still see you as some kind of monster.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
You ever wonder about Greg Fester and whatever happened to him?
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
Cass County Prosecutor Nathan Cox was once again left to call in the press and make the announcement.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
It's all a black hole of regret now, of course. Except, she said, for one good thing she did. She refused to implicate two men who had nothing to do with the murders. Turned down a golden chance to cut herself a better deal with prosecutors by lying and nailing Nick Sampson and Matt Livers. Do you kick yourself about that sometimes?
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
But for the Stock family, it wasn't that simple. Can you believe, Jessica? They asked. They were driven, they told us, by a common sense instilled in an early age by their murdered parents. And so they still were asking, who, why, who did this?
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
We wanted to know how the Stock family feels about Matt and Nick today, but they did not respond. As for Jessica Reed, since that day we spoke to her in prison, she's had a bit of an epiphany. She explained in a TED Talk taped behind prison walls.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
What if, indeed? At this point, Jessica has served 18 years behind bars. She is not eligible for parole. Her accomplice, Greg Fester, did not respond to our interview requests. He, too, has served 18 years. No parole for him, either. Ever. A postscript? Andy Stock now runs Stock Hay and Grain.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
And with that, after more than seven months in jail, Matt Livers was free. Free to speak to the press for the first time since his arrest. I'm innocent. I had absolutely nothing to do with this. At least for him, the doubters in the town all around him seemed to vanish in the joy of it all.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
He knocked down the home where the murders occurred and built a new house, where he made some better memories. Matt Livers and Nick Sampson have gone through many struggles to get back their good names. They settled lawsuits against state and local authorities, as well as CSI chief David Kofod, for something north of $7.5 million.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
As for Kofod, he was acquitted of federal evidence tampering charges. But then the state of Nebraska took up the case, and at his second trial, Kofod was found guilty of evidence tampering.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
At his sentencing, the career law enforcement man again denied planting evidence and told the judge the truth would come out eventually.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
But the judge had a somewhat different perspective. He told the court he'd been moved by letters from Livers and Sampson asking him to throw the book at Kofod, and that is just what he did.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
The sentence? After four years in prison... Kofod served, too. In the end, two defense lawyers still marvel that poor police work almost did their clients in, even as investigators on the same case brilliantly tracked the one piece of evidence that saved Blivers and Sampson and finally identified the real murderers. A simple gold ring.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
As for that citizen who went way beyond the call to find the critical evidence that saved Matt Livers and Nick Sampson, that gold ring with the inscription on it, She shrugs, as if Mary Martino still believes it was no big deal.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
Murder in the Moonlight is a production of Dateline and NBC News. Shane Bishop is the producer. Brian Drew, Kelly Laudeen, Bruce Berger, Marshall Hausfeld, and Candace Goldman are audio editors. Brittany Morris is field producer. Leslie Grossman is program coordinator. Adam Gorfain is co-executive producer. Paul Ryan is executive producer. And Liz Cole is senior executive producer.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
From NBC News Audio, sound mixing by Bob Mallory and Katie Lau. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
His girlfriend Sarah was there, of course, to take him home, and not long after they became Mr. and Mrs. Livers, and we had a talk.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
It's a funny old expression, isn't it? Fish or cut bait. But everybody knows. Everybody knows what it means. Time to make a decision. Charge ahead or walk away. Sort of thing keeps a prosecutor up at night. There was Matt Livers, who had confessed to killing his aunt and uncle, Wayne and Charmin Stalk, and then unconfessed. Convictable? Maybe. Confessions speak loud in court.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
But why in heaven's name had Matt confessed in the first place? Finally, now that he was free, we could ask him. This was back in 2010. A lot of the audience will say, well, come on.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
But then they had to release Nick Sampson, the cousin who obviously didn't take part. And Jessica Reed, who most certainly was in on the murders with her boyfriend Greg Fester, refused a sweet deal to testify against either Nick or Matt. And now the CSI chief who'd overseen the crime scene, David Kofod, had been accused of planting evidence.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
But the damage was done. The whole thing left Matt and his cousin Nick at a loss for words to each other. What has this done to your relationship with Matt?
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
We wanted to know if their relationship has been mended. We reached out. They did not respond.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
It's my home. Nick and Matt, although at odds, were finally free. As for Jessica Reed and Greg Fester, it was time for judgment day. Jessica Reed had given up the deal that could have given her a lighter sentence. Now, almost a year after the stock murders, the prosecutors offered her one more chance. Not a get-out-of-jail-free card. Oh, no, no. But a deal just the same, and this one she took.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
Jessica said she would plead guilty to second-degree murder in exchange for her testimony at trial against her accomplice, Greg Fester. Which meant, given she was still only 18 by then, she might get out of prison someday, have some sort of life. Second-degree murder, by law, carried a sentence of 20 years to life, with a chance for parole. So, all said, apparently.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
But then, well, in this case, would you expect anything to go according to plan? Because to all the mystifying moves by investigators and prosecutors in Cass County, Nebraska, add one more. And this time... It was a big one. A judge ruled the county attorney had missed a deadline to announce his intention to seek the death penalty against Greg Fester. And so first-degree murder was off the table.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
There would be no chance to send Greg Fester to death row. Another blow to the Stark children, Tammy, Steve, and Andy. Was that a disappointment to you?
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
So before long, a new deal was reached. Both Fester and Reed would plead guilty to murder in the second degree. And in March 2007, not yet a year since the killings, they entered a courtroom to come face to face for the first time with the Stocks family. You went to the sentencing.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
Oh, and yes, there was that awkward business about the sheriff's office failing for months to tell Matt's attorneys that he had recanted his confession.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
In the courtroom, the judge read the victim impact statements, which had been written by Wayne and Charmin's family members, as if such an impact could be measured in words. Jessica Reed and Greg Fester each apologized to the Stalk family. And then the family held its breath. Steve Stalk.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
But no, that was not to be. For Fester, the judge handed down two consecutive life terms plus another 10 to 20 years for using a weapon. For Jessica Reed, the first of the courthouse to make a deal, remember? There was, in fact, no break at all. She got the same sentence for murder as Fester. Two life terms to be served back to back, if you could do such a thing. her attorney, Tom Olson.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
She might have had a date far in the future, 40 years away maybe, where she might get a chance in front of a parole order.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
And now it truly was time to act, one way or the other. Fish or cut bait? I'm Keith Morrison, and this is Murder in the Moonlight, a podcast from Dateline. Episode 6, The Final Domino's Fall. By the end of 2006, more than seven months after the stock murders, the problems with their case multiplying, prosecutors finally agreed with the defense lawyers.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
For the Stock family, ever graceful people, the sentences were a relief. But later, when we sat down with Andy Stock and his siblings in 2010, a rare flash of anger directed toward the two who took his parents' lives.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
There was another unresolved question, of course, the big one, still not fully answered. What really happened that night on the stock farm? What led two Wisconsin teenagers to throw away their lives by so callously killing a Nebraska farm couple whom everyone loved? Perhaps only two people in the world know what happened inside that farmhouse and why.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
So we gathered up our recording gear and checked ourselves into the Nebraska Correctional Center for Women, where a convicted killer was waiting to talk to us. How close they seemed to each other, given the vast expanse of the Nebraska prairie. It was perhaps an irrational thought, but somehow affecting.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
There she was, year after year, housed in a prison just an hour's drive from the scene of her crime. It was here, on a cool windy day, that we were given one hour, no more, to talk to Jessica Reed, fresh off a shift working in what the inmates there call the dish room.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Final Dominoes Fall
Jessica Reed, at the time of this interview, was 21 years old. She looked and carried herself and spoke more like some kindergarten teacher than a convicted killer. Makes no difference. She will very likely die in prison. And she told us she will spend her life haunted by what happened in that farmhouse.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
It was Jessica who fingered Nick Sampson after they showed her a picture of the guy. At least, he looked familiar, is how she put it. Which, if she was telling the truth, would back up Matt Liver's confession rather nicely. Now, it was the job of the Wisconsin detective, Jim Rohr, to find out if she was telling the truth. They had a confession in Nebraska. If she recognizes a picture...
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Add to that two more test results. Ballistics tests confirmed that the gun found under Nick's bed was not the murder weapon. And do you remember detectives found a spot of what looked like blood on mixed genes? So that was tested. And it was not human blood at all.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
And now the arrests of those teenagers from Wisconsin, two people clearly present at the crime scene, but never mentioned at all in any of Matt Leiber's hours and hours of police interviews. Come on. Julie Bear knew what she had to do. She marched over to the jail to ask Matt Livers face-to-face about these alleged accomplices, Reed and Fester.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
It's a bit of a cliche that some defense attorneys won't ask their clients if they committed the crime they're charged with. Some attorneys just don't want to know. In this case, Julie Bear had been assigned as Matt Liver's defense attorney, knowing full well that he had already confessed to the gruesome double murder of Wayne and Charmin Stock.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Matt had since changed his story, insisting that he hadn't killed anyone. And Julie had been dutiful in her evaluation of the evidence, looking for anything that would confirm the truth of the confession or any proof of his guilt. And she found none.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
And now, hearing about the arrests of Gregory Fester and Jessica Reed in Wisconsin for the same murders, she went over to the jail and asked Matt Livers directly if he knew who these two teenagers were. And?
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
It would take another month for copies of those videotaped interrogations of Jessica Reed and Greg Fester to inch their way over to the defense attorneys in Nebraska. But when they finally did, well, now this certainly caught their attention. Jessica Reed had just been asked, who was with you? Who helped you commit the murders? Here was her response.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
There were no other killers, just her, just Greg. And that whole story about meeting Nick Sampson at Bulldog's bar, she had made it up, she said, after detectives showed her a picture of Nick. and asked her if it looked familiar. And she said yes back then, that he looked like the guy who helped them, and that turned out to be Nick. So, was Jessica telling the truth in that first interrogation?
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Or now, when she flipped the script 180 degrees, said she'd never seen the guy in her whole life? That's when the prosecutor decided it was time to try a new tactic with Jessica. A very common tactic, by the way. Often used because it often works. And not to mention one that saves a lot of time and trouble and money. They would offer Jessica a deal, which was essentially this.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
If she would agree to testify against Matt Livers and Nick Sampson, if she would reveal once and for all that those two were in fact there at the murders, then the prosecutor could allow Jessica to plead guilty to a lesser charge, serve less time in prison, and potentially send Matt Livers and Nick Sampson to death row. The prosecutor set up a meeting with Jessica and her lawyer.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
of one of the people who were the subject of the confession in Nebraska, that's their verification of the original story, right? That helps. It certainly helps. Jessica's accomplice and paramour, Greg Fester, confessed that they had been directed to the Stocks farmhouse out in the middle of nowhere in Nebraska by someone he called Thomas. Detective Rohr found that helpful, too.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Next, on Murder in the Moonlight. Who was telling the truth about that awful night on the farm? And what would happen to Matt Libers and Nick Sampson now when Jessica told her tale?
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Murder in the Moonlight is a production of Dateline and NBC News. Shane Bishop is the producer. Brian Drew, Kelly Laudine, Bruce Berger, Marshall Hausfeld, and Candace Goldman are audio editors. Brittany Morris is field producer. Leslie Grossman is program coordinator. Adam Gorfain is co-executive producer. Paul Ryan is executive producer. And Liz Cole is senior executive producer.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
From NBC News Audio, sound mixing by Bob Mallory and Katie Lau. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
So while Jessica was being held in jail, the detective went over to the house where she had been staying, a sort of flop house for teens, as he called it. Seemed like a good place to start his search for some explanation.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Like a cell phone. And like a piece of low-hanging fruit, there it was. And happily, Jessica had given him permission to get into it, into the cell phone. Take a look at her calls and contacts.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
But the phone was not the only thing Jim Rohr found in that flop house, though the rest of it wasn't quite so obvious. There was a picture on the wall near Jessica's little corner. A framed picture, and the frame itself stuck out a little bit. So the detective looked behind it and, well, what do you know? There was a cigarette box hidden in there. He opened it.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
And inside the box, a shotgun shell, 12 gauge, the same gauge as used in the murders. And alongside the shell, folded up in that cigarette box, was a letter written by Jessica Reed, apparently to Greg Fester. It read, quote, And this bullet... Well, Bunny, it's the only thing left. And I loved it, but that's something we'll talk about one day.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
But it's here also because that's something I did for you, me, and for you to love me as much as I love you. That is the end of the quote. Detective Rohr read it again. Took it in. Astonishing. When you read the material that you found, what did you think?
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Rohrer went back to his task, excited about it now, and pretty soon he found something else. It was a notebook, a diary of sorts, but no ordinary diary. Here were words penned by Jessica Reed herself. I killed someone. He was older. I loved it. I wish I could do it all the time. If Greg doesn't watch it, I'm going to just leave one day and I'll do it myself. Pretty scary.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Four would have been even better, of course, there being four suspects after all, but three would certainly do for now. Confessions from family cousin Matt Livers. I did the shooting, he said. I just stuck it to him and blew him away. Confessions to having been there from the two hopped-up kids in the stolen red truck, Jessica Reed and Greg Fester.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Mm-hmm. I'm Keith Morrison and this is Murder in the Moonlight, a podcast from Dateline. Episode 4, About Face. Detective Jim Rohr was driving back to the station in Beaverdam, Wisconsin, still shaking his head over what he'd found in that flop house used by Jessica Reed.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Just don't expect to hear that from a young girl. No. Clearly, the detective needed to talk to Jessica again, and so he called the jail. And sheriff's deputies once again escorted Jessica from her cell to that dingy gray interview room, where this time there was no holding back.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
If there's anything like a holy grail, a gold standard in a high-pressure murder investigation, then surely that must be the confession. Skilled interrogator leads tormented killer to inevitable and satisfactory conclusion, saving everyone a lot of time and trouble. Not to mention giving the family the answers they so desperately need. But three confessions? This was very good indeed.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Laughing about murder? Anyway, there, she'd said it. It was Greg Fester who killed the Stalks. But why did she write that note? The one found by Detective Rohr.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
She tried again to explain the words, and in doing so, she changed her story again, confessed to firing one gunshot.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
But the detective absolutely found Jessica Reed to be credible when she admitted one thing, that she enjoyed it.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
And that, investigators believe, might have been the most honest thing Jessica Reed said. The rest of the story, the Jessica and Greg part of the story, was told by the science. Ballistics tests confirmed that the shell found in Jessica's cigarette box matched the spent shells found at the murder scene. And the murder weapon?
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Well, that turned out to be a gun stolen from the same Wisconsin farm where they stole the red pickup truck. The truck they drove from Wisconsin to Nebraska and then dumped down in Louisiana. And then the forensics lab found blood still clinging to Jessica's clothes and shoes, and so they ran tests and confirmed that blood had once flowed through the veins of victim Wayne Stock.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
And also, while they were there, while they were at it, they teased out DNA from the gold ring and that marijuana pipe the cops found on the ground near the farmhouse. And there was no doubt whose DNA it was. Jessica Reed on the ring, Greg Fester on the pipe. So both of them were charged. First-degree murder.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
But over in Nebraska, with the exception of law enforcement, no one knew a thing about the discoveries in Beaver Dam. Even Wayne and Charmaine Stock's three adult children were kept in the dark as they struggled to grip the wheel of their new, strange lives. One thing to try to move on, quite another to actually do it, is daughter Tammy.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Terrible questions. None of them ever thought they'd have to contemplate. And that second set of confessors, Reed and Fester, they might have done their talking on the moon, for all the family knew about it. Same for the accused killers, Matt Livers and Nick Sampson. Not a word of the confessions in Wisconsin got to them.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
And then, a few days later, Sampson's defense attorney, Jerry Soucy, answered the phone, and everything changed.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
So he waited, not patiently. And then, in his frustration, Jerry Soucy tried something unorthodox.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Well, maybe... It's a tenet of police work, an important and accepted principle, though sometimes adhered to grudgingly. When big things happen in murder cases like the one in Murdoch, the public needs to be told at least something. It's understood, however, that crucial details are to be withheld. The arrests of Livers and Sampson had been trumpeted far and wide.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
But a little triangulation by two states' worth of detectives ought to put him in the frame, too. First, the Wisconsin investigators would have to dredge up evidence to support or refute the stories Greg and Jessica were telling. Both of them, remember, said they witnessed but did not commit the gruesome murders of Wayne and Charmin Stock on an Easter evening six weeks before in Murdoch, Nebraska.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
But now, two more murder charges in a case that apparently had been solved? The arrests of teens Jessica Reed and Greg Fester in, of all places, Wisconsin, were announced so quietly that the news, the little of it that was revealed, didn't even get to the people in Murdoch, Nebraska. They mostly remained in the dark.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Even Nick Sampson's defense attorney, Jerry Soucy, knew only the barest of detail, which did not sit well with him at all.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Those affidavits were a revelation. All those details culled from the hours and hours of police interviews with Greg Fester and Jessica Reed.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Defense attorney Susie just couldn't believe his eyes as he read the story of the cigarette case, the shells which matched the shotgun, the marijuana pipe those two teenagers had dropped along the way, the gold ring that set off a whole new investigation, and most tellingly, DNA irrefutably linking Reed and Fester to the crime. Suddenly, it was all beginning to make sense.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Remember, Susie's client, Nick Sampson, professed his innocence from day one.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Meantime, defense attorney Julie Bear's client, Matt Libers, confessed, but then told her he didn't do it. So for weeks after the arrests, these attorneys had been asking themselves the very same simple question. Where was the evidence? And they had found, well, none. In fact, the evidence seemed to be pointing to the very real possibility that both Livers and Samson were factually innocent. Why?
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Well, for one, both accused killers had pretty good alibis. Matt Liver's girlfriend, a woman with an impeccable reputation, insisted that Matt was home all night with her, 30 miles away, in Lincoln, Nebraska, night of the murders. Same with Nick Sampson's girlfriend, who swore he never left their house that night. She took a polygraph and she passed it. Samson's attorney, Jerry Soucy.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
Then the defense lawyers went looking for evidence of those alleged phone calls between Matt and Nick in the days before the murders. Calls in which they supposedly planned it all. As Matt told detectives during his confession.
Murder in the Moonlight
About Face
But phone records don't lie. And they revealed there wasn't one call, not one, between Matt and Nick in the days before the murders. Matt's defense attorney, Julie Baer.
Murder in the Moonlight
Introducing: Murder in the Moonlight
Maybe he was lying to you. Not a chance. If anyone could figure it out. It was this and then it was that and then it was this and then it was that. When a top lawman was caught in a lie. You wake up one morning and they say you're a criminal. Well, it kind of was like that. You know, wish there was a time machine and go back in time and say, forget this ever happened.
Murder in the Moonlight
Introducing: Murder in the Moonlight
I'm Keith Morrison, and this is Murder in the Moonlight, an all-new podcast from Dateline. You can listen to all episodes now completely free. To listen to all Dateline podcasts ad-free, subscribe to Dateline Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or datelinepremium.com.
Murder in the Moonlight
Introducing: Murder in the Moonlight
There are verities in this great land. The simple joys of an Easter egg hunt. The family-centered traditions on a fine big farm in the heart of the Western Plains. The all but certain confidence that some places are safe from chaos and violence. Never in a million years would you think that you'd see your parents' house taped off, the farm taped off by that yellow tape.
Murder in the Moonlight
Introducing: Murder in the Moonlight
It was a very brutal crime scene, one of the worst I've ever seen. Careful what myths you choose to rely on, like truth, for example, and the weakness that makes us think we alone have found it. Electric chair, gas, lethal injection. That's what kind of case this is. As we stumble in the dark until we hear what we need to hear. Put the gun to her face and blew it away. An inside job, apparently.
Murder in the Moonlight
Introducing: Murder in the Moonlight
A family affair, as murder often is. You're just sitting there trying to take it all in, trying to figure out why does this happen. But sometimes, it takes a second set of eyes to see a clue missed until that moment that took a case of double murder on a long, strange trip. I said, that's like looking for a needle in a haystack. Three tiny letters, the ultimate key to a mystery.
Murder in the Moonlight
Introducing: Murder in the Moonlight
That pretty much sends a chill down your spine. Sometimes the least likely of all things can be real. I am not kidding. And if no one believes me, then I really want to go back to myself. Truth can be hidden in strange places. She looked at me and she said, I'm screwed. And I said, you just got to tell the truth. That's all you can do at this point. If there was truth to be found.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
And when that interview ended, after Matt recounted any involvement in the murders, well, into the ether it went, never to be seen or heard again. Until a package from the DA finally showed up at Julie Baer's office. How long was that withheld?
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
And for all those months, while Matt's own attorney was in the dark, no idea her client had recanted every word of that confession, he was stuck in jail.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
Right. We asked the Cascadia, Nebraska Sheriff's Office for an explanation for that. They declined to provide one and didn't want to talk about any other parts of the case either. There seemed to be only one thing that could happen now. But in this case, well, when did anything ever go the way it should? Well, issues with Matt Liver's confession had now surfaced.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
But would it? Jessica Reed, all of 17 years old, was standing, perhaps shivering, in a hallway outside her meeting with the prosecutor. She had just been offered a way to salvage her messed up young life. Testify against Nick Sampson and Matt Livers that she could plead to a lesser charge, get a chance to go free, eventually. Her testimony would help the state convict those two cousins of murder.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
Some of the investigators would not, and said they could not, let go of the belief that either Sampson or Liver's, or both of them, were involved somehow. They didn't buy the notion that two drug-addled teenagers just happened to stumble on a hard place to find, by pure chance, way out in the country, in the dark. Though this is how Sampson's attorney, Jerry Soucy, saw things.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
Whoever, indeed. At one point, remember, Greg Fester said the main shooter, the guy who led them to the farm, was a local Nebraska boy named Thomas, with whom Fester had been communicating by phone before the murders.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
And detectives have knocked themselves out trying to find such a person, this Thomas guy, or any guy who might be that particular one. But he seemed to be a ghost. Couldn't find anybody at all who might be their Thomas. And meanwhile, Jessica Reed kept trying to persuade investigators that nobody else was there besides her and Fester, of course. And she was going on about it.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
Well, she was right about that. The detectives did not believe her. They still suspected Livers and Sampson of some involvement. Why? It all went back to that speck of evidence that CSI chief David Kofod found in a car connected to Nick Sampson and spotted near the murder scene.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
It was a stain that turned up on a sterile piece of filter paper that Kofod himself swiped under the dashboard of that car. That was during a second search of the car, by the way. The first by an officer under Kofod had turned up nothing. But that stain, the DNA test proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, was Wayne Stock's blood. So how would it get there?
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
Only one way, from Nick Sampson or Matt Livers, after they murdered the stocks. It was actually the FBI that started asking questions about that. But they didn't ask Matt Livers or Nick Sampson. Instead, the FBI's investigation was aimed at the detectives who handled the case. In fact, at CSI chief David Kofod himself. And after months of digging, the FBI came to a truly stunning conclusion.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
That Kofod must have planted that swipe of blood himself. Phony evidence to nail down a shaky case. To say that came as a shock would be the understatement of the year. David Kofod was a respected officer, division commander of the CSI unit in Douglas County, Nebraska. And then he was an indicted officer.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
There were four federal charges, including falsifying records and violating Livers and Sampson's civil rights.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
Kofod pleaded not guilty to all charges, defiantly told reporters he'd rather go to prison than resign. He even passed a polygraph and was cleared in an internal Sheriff's Department investigation.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
Kofold blamed the stain on accidental contamination. Somehow, he said, blood from the victim, Wayne Stock, must have ended up on that sterile filter paper, probably out of the murder scene, and then somebody goofed, and that same filter paper was what he later used on the car. That was his defense. But Kofo did admit he broke the rules.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
This would be the most consequential decision Jessica Reed would ever have to make. She turned to her lawyer, Tom Olson. She didn't know these guys.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
How many more ways could this prosecution go sideways? Well, it turned out, plenty. Coming up in the final episode of Murder in the Moonlight, how could Matt Liver still be in jail now that evidence had apparently been planted and his confession proven untrustworthy? And a killer tells her tale.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
Murder in the Moonlight is a production of Dateline and NBC News. Shane Bishop is the producer. Brian Drew, Kelly Laudeen, Bruce Berger, Marshall Hausfeld, and Candace Goldman are audio editors. Brittany Morris is field producer. Leslie Grossman is program coordinator. Adam Gorfain is co-executive producer. Paul Ryan is executive producer. And Liz Cole is senior executive producer.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
From NBC News Audio, sound mixing by Bob Mallory and Katie Lau. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
I'm Keith Morrison, and this is Murder in the Moonlight, a podcast from Dateline. Episode 5, When It All Falls Apart. The days dragged along one by one and mounted up and became months. And all the long while, those two boys sat in their respective cells and wondered if they would ever see a free day again because nothing was working, nothing at all.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
So Nick's attorney, Jerry Soucy, decided it was time for a change of strategy.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
But the county attorney had been busy, too, reviewing evidence, meeting potential witnesses like Jessica Reed, who in that meeting had asked to take a break to contemplate the prosecutor's offer. And one look at Jessica told her lawyer, Tom Olson, something wasn't right.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
But after the arrest of Wisconsin teenagers Greg Fester and Jessica Reed, Matt's lawyer and Nick's both adopted an altogether different point of view. Seemed to them, those boys must be innocent. Here's Nick's lawyer, Jerry Soucy.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
Jessica's insistence that neither Matt nor Nick was there made the case against Nick, at least, untenable. So the county attorney had a chat with Jerry Soucy. And finally just said, whether they did it or didn't, I certainly can't prove it against Nick Sampson.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
The autumn moon in Nebraska, that troubled year, watched over a crop of confusion. What happened to that murder investigation? Who was guilty of killing Wayne and Charmin Stock? If you'd asked around Murdoch, the answer would be those cousins, Matt Livers and Nick Sampson, locked up for months now.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
And then, nearly six months after the murders, the county attorney, Nathan Cox, called a press conference and announced that the murder case against Nick Sampson was being dropped. Sort of.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
Was there a chance Nick Sampson would be charged with murder again? Well, yes, there was. But Nick certainly didn't act like it as he walked out of jail arm in arm with his attorney, Jerry Soucy.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
It was cloud nine. It was an incredible feeling. After more than five months in jail, Nick Sampson was free.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
But Nick Sampson, even free, was not carefree, not by any means. Some things could never be the same again, as he told me himself.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
Because around this county in rural Nebraska were a great many people, perhaps a majority, who were still quite certain that Nick was as guilty as can be. After all, his own cousin Matt had admitted full out that they had both killed those lovely people.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
But nothing could soothe the grief-fagitated minds of the Stalk children. Starved of real information, they hung on to what little they had been told, what they'd been assured by the guardians of the law, that the two men who killed their parents were securely behind bars and would be until they were tried for murder. And yet, now, the law had sent one of those suspects home.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
And yet their cousin Matt Livers had confessed. At least he was still in custody. And then there were those two teenagers from Wisconsin, Gregory Fester and Jessica Reed, who'd apparently also confessed to some role in the whole awful business. But just what that role was, few people in Murdoch seemed to know. So confusing it certainly was.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
Jerry Soucy was no longer a fresh young lawyer when he met Nick Sampson. By then, Soucy was a man of considerable experience in the area of public defense in Nebraska. He'd been standing up for the poor and the indigent, criminal and otherwise, for decades. Had heard just about every sob story, every sneaky lie, every false claim of innocence in the book.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
And sometimes, he had discovered, people do strange things when accosted by the law. So when Susie watched the tapes of Matt Liver's confession, saw and heard him naming Nick as co-killer, well, let's just say his practiced lawyer eye noticed a few things.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
So many problems. There was Matt's confession, which, no matter how he tried to talk his way out of it, could still be used against him. And that smear of blood, remember that? It was apparently victim Wayne Stock's blood, discovered by lead detective Kofod in a car owned by Nick Sampson's brother and spotted near the murder scene, right around the time it happened.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
Don't remember? And then there was something else that was clear to both defense attorneys, though they feared the investigators may not have picked up on it. Matt Livers, as he himself admitted, was not the sharpest guy.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
Matt had his strengths, too, of course, but in any conversation with authority figures, and especially under the sort of pressure that was clearly being exerted in that interview room, Matt Livers was prone to being led. He maybe was gullible. Matt's attorney, Julie Baer.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
And one moment stood out, said the defense attorneys, when the detectives should have realized just how little Matt Livers understood of what was happening to him. It was when one of the cops told Matt he needed to be a man to tell them the truth.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
Stand up. In other words, take responsibility. But this was on videotape, remember? And Julie Bear watched.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
As Julie Bear watched the tape, what stood up for her was the hair on the back of her neck. Seemed to her those detectives just weren't paying attention to the sort of man they were talking to. Or maybe, she thought, maybe they knew he was not the sharpest guy, but just wanted that confession. It all led to one conclusion. There was now no doubt in the mind of either defense attorney.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
A false confession. He'd made it all up. But as Julie Bear contemplated what, if anything, she could do about that, she got a surprise. Not long after Nick Sampson's release with Matt Liver still in jail, Julie received a DVD she'd never seen before. Even though she had asked months earlier, as was her right, for all the available discovery, all the prosecution's material in Matt's case...
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
This DVD contained a new interview with Matt. A second interview that the defense had never been told existed. Again, I'm going to read your rights. This interview had been taped the day after the first 11-hour interrogation, the one in which he had confessed. By then, after a night in the local jail, Matt had a chance to regain his equilibrium.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
He needed to tell me about it. Though indeed he did have something weighing on him. And here it came.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
Needless to say, this recantation did not go over well. These were the same investigators who had just taken his confession the day before, and now he wanted to take it all back? Well, not a chance. And here, they hammered away at Matt.
Murder in the Moonlight
When It All Falls Apart
So the prosecutor wasn't about to drop any charges. And meanwhile, sitting in jail, Nick had thoughts of taking his own life.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
But then somebody from Nebraska called him about that gold ring. And suddenly Jim Rohr was in a whole nother mystery altogether.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
There's an old saying that prisons are full of criminals who thought they were smarter than they really are. And that old adage would seem to apply here. It didn't take Detective Rohrer very long to figure out who the truck thieves were, and they were not exactly members of Mensa. They left quite a trail.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Rohr followed it and discovered that before they swiped the pickup truck with the ring in it, inscribed from Corey to Ryan, they stole an SUV and sideswiped a couple of cars with it, which drew the attention of a crowd, and so they abandoned the SUV. And since they were in a hurry, they left some personal stuff behind.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
And so, finding the thieves was the easy part. In fact, they had already made their way back from Louisiana to Wisconsin, where somebody saw them hanging around a cemetery right near the farm where they stole the truck. There were two of them, a guy and a girl, and what a pair they were. The guy was Greg Fester, age 19, with a history of drug use and suicide attempts and anger issues.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
But the message was clear. Everybody could relax. And nobody was thinking of Voltaire just then. Ridiculous thought. Why in heaven's name would they? It was so far off and long ago when that famous French philosopher scribbled in his notebook... While doubt is not an agreeable condition, certainty is an absurd one. Or as somebody in Murdoch might have said, don't count your chickens.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Fester was on probation for weapons and disorderly conduct convictions.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Fester's alleged accomplice was a 17-year-old named Jessica Reed, a former honor roll student, cheerleader, Well, then her parents got divorced and she didn't do so well anymore. She got herself mixed up with drugs and then by extension with the lovely Mr. Fester. Not exactly master criminals, were they?
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Out of control. But Detective Rohr had no idea just how out of control these two had been. No one did, really. Not yet, anyway. In the spring of 2006, investigators in two states sought to solve a riddle that sprouted along with the corn. Two towns, Murdoch, Nebraska, Beaverdam, Wisconsin, more than 500 miles apart, now united undeniably by a single band of gold.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
That ring sold in a Beaverdam Walmart and then found days after the murders of Wayne and Charmin Stock, lying on the floor in the kitchen of the Stock farmhouse near Murdoch, Nebraska. What a lot of mischief that size 10 ring was getting up to. Good mischief? Bad mischief? Well, here is that part of the story. The main suspect was, of course, Matt Livers.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
He confessed, remember, and rather colorfully, about what he said he did to Wayne and Charmin's stock. But nowhere in his confession, or in his answers to lots and lots of questions, did he say a single word about a ring. Ditto about a stolen truck, or out-of-control Wisconsin teenagers. Not a hint, not a word about them. Like none of that even existed.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Meanwhile, way off in Wisconsin, something kind of amazing happened when Detective Jim Rohr invited Jessica Reed to come in for a chat. And she said, sure. If all she had to do was cop to stealing a truck or helping to steal it, she couldn't be in too much trouble. Hello?
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Did she? In fact, as she settled in, young Ms. Reed seemed to view her visit to the police interview room as little more than a nuisance to be endured. In fact, this is her saying that very thing.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Didn't go to Nebraska. Didn't know anything about a gold ring, she said. She and Fester just stole a truck, she said, and fueled by pot and massive doses of over-the-counter cough syrup, went off in search of the ocean before running out of gas and money and leaving that pickup truck in Louisiana.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Then the detective showed her a picture of a marijuana pipe, which, along with the gold ring, turned up at the stock farmhouse. And Jessica Reed looked... Okay, I did steal.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
And then, well, then Jessica just blurted it out. At that farmhouse, now apparently to her surprise in Nebraska, Greg Fester sneaked in through a window and let her in the back door. In the kitchen, she said, she found $500 in an envelope. And then, she said, they left. Swear to God. Oh, in the ring? Well, now Jessica Reed admitted, yes, she found it in that stolen pickup and she put it on.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
But then inside the night dark farmhouse, as they were making their getaway, she felt it slide off her thumb in the kitchen. Didn't stop to look for it. And where was all this going anyway?
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
I'm Keith Morrison and this is Dateline's newest podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. Episode 3, The Ring. The arrests of Matt Libers and Nick Sampson brought a measure of relief to the Stalk children. Even though Matt was a member of the family, there had been issues.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Well, somebody did it. And remember, two men, Matt Livers and Nick Sampson, had been arrested and were already in jail. Matt said they committed the murders, confessed in excruciating detail, and named Nick Sampson as his accomplice, though Nick denied it. Which led to a puzzle investigators had to ask Jessica about. Tell us who you were with.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
But wait a minute. She must have known Matt and Nick. So the investigators showed her pictures of them. And she said, no idea who they are. Never saw them before. And then the visiting investigators from Nebraska informed her that Nebraska's electric chair stood ready for her if she refused to cooperate. And Jessica reconsidered. She pointed to one of the photos.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
That was Nick Sampson, who looked kind of familiar. And from there, as the hours wore on, Jessica's story shapeshifted, as did the players, time and again, until it evolved eventually into a tale that began Easter night at Bulldog's Bar in Murdoch, where Nick Sampson worked, remember? And then they followed Nick out to the farmhouse where they stole the money. And Nick got crazy.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
And then with that off her chest, Jessica looked again at the photo of Nick, the man she had claimed was the mastermind of the murders.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
And with that, Jessica reads well-planned day with her grandmother. In fact, all of her plans evaporated in a jail cell. Well, detectives focused next on Jessica's partner in crime, Greg Fester. Again, Jim Rohr. You're in that. I was. Tell me about the atmosphere in there.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Reserved and, to the surprise of no one, Greg Fester wanted to blame it all on Jessica.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
It was all Jessica's idea, said Fester, stealing the truck, the ridiculous trip across the country. And as for the murders in the farmhouse, well, after investigators showed him photos of Murdoch and Bulldog's bar, Fester told a story of meeting a guy there who, he said, squeezed into their stolen pickup truck and led them straight to the Stalks farmhouse. And then, he said...
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
And Nick, Matt's cousin, they didn't know him as well, but now at least they could try to move on, as they knew their parents would have wanted them to. Daughter Tammy.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
But then? Well, surprise, surprise. Fester insisted the man who committed the murders was not Nick Sampson. And it wasn't even Matt Livers, either, who'd already confessed that he was the killer. No, Greg Fester told detectives that it was some friend he'd communicated with by a text message. A guy he called Thomas.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Well, that was all just a little confusing, perhaps. But for the investigators from Nebraska, it seemed to be starting to come together. What was their sense of things after that first day of questioning?
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Now, with Greg Fester and Jessica Reed in jail, detectives set about finding physical evidence to cross-reference with their stories. And, incredibly, once again, one little thing. Not a ring, that key piece of evidence found on the Starks' kitchen floor, but... But this time, a cigarette box was about to turn the case upside down all over again. Next on Murder in the Moonlight. I killed someone.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
He was older. I loved it. I wish I could do it all the time. When you read the material that you found, what did you think?
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Murder in the Moonlight is a production of Dateline and NBC News. Shane Bishop is the producer. Brian Drew, Kelly Laudeen, Bruce Berger, Marshall Hausfeld, and Candace Goldman are audio editors. Brittany Morris is field producer. Leslie Grossman is program coordinator. Adam Gorfain is co-executive producer. Paul Ryan is executive producer. And Liz Cole is senior executive producer.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
From NBC News Audio, sound mixing by Bob Mallory and Katie Lau. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
And as Andy, the youngest sibling, put it... It's not going to bring them back, so why agonize over it?
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
And with Livers and Sampson behind bars, the slow grind toward their inevitable trial could begin. Naturally, the same system that had caught the alleged killers also provided them with competent legal counsel, as the law requires. For Matt Livers, attorney Julie Baer...
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
And yet, when Julie Bear asked around a bit, she started to hear things. Things like this. Both Matt Livers and Nick Sampson and their live-in girlfriends swore up and down that on the night of the murders they were at their respective homes, sound asleep, miles away from the Stock family farmhouse.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
And so, when the Cass County Sheriff's Office announced, just two weeks after the murders, that one of the most shocking crimes in this part of Nebraska in decades had been solved... Well, you can hardly blame them for calling in the press and taking a victory lap.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
And for what it was worth, although Matt said, remember, that they planned it all out on their cell phones in the two days or so before the murders, Nick Sampson swore up and down that he didn't see Matt or talk to him on the phone, in person, or any other way during that time. Not once. But how could that be? Nick Sampson got a defense attorney, too. His name is Jerry Soucy.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Of course, as the law requires, the investigators were getting ready to tell him and show him what they had on his client. They were just in the aforementioned mop-up mode at that point, and that's when the MacGuffins showed up. A MacGuffin, of course, much loved by writers everywhere, is some object or device, often apparently insignificant, that can flip a plot upside down.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
They came across this thing in Charmin Stock's kitchen. And not during the first few CSI-type go-arounds right after the murders. In fact, not the next day either. After who knows how many dozens of investigators and first responders had tromped through the place. It was after all that when a sharp-eyed young cop noticed, just lying there on the kitchen floor, a gold ring.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Well, that could have been anybody's, of course. One of the cops, probably, or... Well, who knew? But there it was. And now, crime scene investigator chief David Kofod would have to find an explanation for it.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
But at the time, it could have belonged to the victim. Right. It could have belonged to anybody. It could have. Exactly. Except... Remember, one thing people knew about the stock farmhouse, nothing was ever out of place. The meticulous housekeeper, Charmin, made sure of it. Anyway, they bagged that gold ring and they tagged it as evidence.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
It was a size 10, a man's ring, 10 carat gold, and it was engraved with a very personal message.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Who was Corey? Who was Ryan? Detectives asked the Stark children, of course, and, well, none of them knew anybody by those names. They didn't recognize the ring either. It was a sort of glitch within a mystery that will keep bugging a man or a woman forever. By which I mean one of the women on Kofod's detective squad, who noticed, on the inside of the ring, three tiny letters. A. A. J.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
And of course, just about everyone was shocked that the culprits would turn out to be who they were. But there it was, Wayne and Charmin Sock's own nephew, 28-year-old Matt Livers, that actually told the whole ugly story, confessed to shotgunning his own aunt and uncle.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
That manufacturer turned out to be a place called A&A Jewelers. It stamped all the products it made in Buffalo, New York, with the letters AAJ for A&A Jewelers. And so it was in Buffalo where Kofod's investigator found a woman working at AAJ by the name of Mary Martino.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Mary Martino was running what was left of Buffalo's A&A jewelry office just then. Why what was left? Because the place was going out of business. They'd already laid off the workforce 200 jobs. Gone. Just like that. By the time that Nebraska investigator started calling, Mary was one of only three people left. Their job was to clean up the Buffalo office and... close it down.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
And right in the middle of that crushing and depressing work, Mary gets a request to track down a single, not very fancy, not very unusual ring that the company had likely shipped away somewhere years ago. And you said, what? You gotta be kidding.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
And that is when Mary Martino heard that the ring had been found at the scene of the double homicide of Wayne and Charmin Stock in far-off Nebraska. And it might be important. And then the Nebraska cops said that she, Mary, was literally the last person on earth who could, at least possibly, solve that last vexing little mystery.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
No surprise there. Wild goose chase like that? Because even if there was still a record of that ring, finding it in the chaos of that office, right in the middle of closing it down forever? Well, good luck. And anyway, she already had a mountain of depressing work ahead of her. But Mary Martino, dependable Mary, said she'd see what she could do.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
It was possible, after all, the company might have taken the order, might have made that very ring and inscribed it, Love Always, Corey and Ryan, and shipped it somewhere. That's what the company did for a long time. So Mary went out to the warehouse, where tens of thousands of old order forms were stuffed into hundreds of boxes, just waiting for Mary to throw them all away.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Instead, she opened up the first one, and page by yellowed page started reading.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
It was pretty impressive, all things considered, the investigation, that is, into the murders of Wayne and Sharman Stock. The people of Murdoch, Nebraska, had been deeply shaken, and quite understandably so, if the Stocks weren't safe in the sanctity of their own bedroom, then who in Murdoch was safe?
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
And then, well, then she had a thought. There might be one more way to go about it. So she abandoned the warehouse and asked one of the few colleagues she had left to help her narrow down the search on the company computer, make a kind of grid. First, she entered the stores A&A shipped to, more than 3,000 of them, coast to coast, which didn't narrow it down at all, of course.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
But then she took a guess that the ring was ordered within the past few years, and she entered those dates, and, well, that narrowed things down quite a bit. And then she input the inscription, Love always, Corey and Ryan. And out came a printout. And lo and behold, after three days and two nights of searching, there it was.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
And if his 21-year-old cousin Nick Sampson had managed to resist the confessional urge, well, that wouldn't be unexpected, would it? But Matt had fingered him, and that was that. And now that itch in the back uncertainty, the fear that vicious killers were on the loose, had been put to rest.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Wait, Wisconsin? Not Nebraska? What in the world would a ring sold in Wisconsin have to do with a double murder a day's drive away in Nebraska? When Mary Martino finally found the record that made her say, bingo, she picked up the phone and she called back that investigator who'd asked her to somehow track down the origins of the gold ring found on the floor of the stock farmhouse.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Now, all these years later, we can only imagine the look on the Nebraska investigator's face when Mary mentioned where the ring had been sent. It was Wisconsin. Actually, she was far more specific than that. A&A had sent the ring to a Wisconsin town about 500 miles from the farm where the murders occurred. They sent it to the town of Beaver Dam.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Beaver Dam bills itself as a sort of outdoor paradise. Fishing, boating, snowmobiling, that sort of thing. It's northwest of Milwaukee. And in Beaver Dam, as in thousands of other towns like it across rural America, there was a Walmart. That store is where Mary's company sent the gold ring. And so, investigators from Murdoch contacted the Walmart in Beaver Dam and...
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
unearthed a sad and oft-repeated story. Once upon a time, learned those detectives, there was a girl named Corrie, who thought the world of a boy named Ryan, and she bought him that symbol of permanence, the gold ring. She had it engraved with the words, Love Always. But it was not Love Always. And after Corrie and Ryan broke up, The gold ring gathered dust in the cab of Ryan's red pickup truck.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
And that is where the strangest thing happened and why it appears in our story. That red pickup truck was stolen. Somebody just took it from Ryan's farm outside of Beaver Dam. Naturally, Ryan filed a police report. It was dated just a few days before Wayne and Charmin's stock were shot to death in far-off Nebraska. But of course, it was a Wisconsin detective who took the theft report.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Experience suggested police would likely find the truck somewhere nearby. But instead... There was another surprise.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Meanwhile, said Cass County Sheriff Bill Brueggemann, they could get on with the legal stuff, button up the case.
Murder in the Moonlight
The Ring
Wait, Louisiana? That was a thousand miles from Beaver Dam. How did they know to call you? Because of the registration to your town?
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
Andy, however, did not get to leave. He was the last to see his parents alive, the one who found their bodies in the morning, which made him, the way these things go, at the very least a person of interest.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
And thus, yet another emotion was added to Tammy's grief.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
But Matt Livers had been with them at Easter dinner. And then just a few hours later, according to him, he returned with Nick Sampson in tow to kill his aunt and uncle? Her parents? Tammy tried to focus. Things needed doing.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
Andy Stock didn't realize it at the time, but investigators were soon pointing hard right at him. After all, he was there. He had opportunity. He may have had motive. something to gain from his parents' deaths. After all, Andy was the already designated heir to the Stock A Company, which some people might consider a family fortune.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
As investigators questioned Andy, CSI units were busily working the crime scene. One of those leading the investigation was a man named David Kofod. It was a very brutal crime scene. It was one of the worst I've ever seen. Kofod was the head of the Crime Scene Investigation Squad in Douglas County, way off in Omaha, a good hour away.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
But the Cass County Sheriff's Office wasn't used to this sort of thing, and so Kofod was called in to help. He certainly carried himself like a man used to being in the lead. He was bald, bespectacled, a serious man. And even he was shaken by what he saw in that house. Here he is telling me about it.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Tammy's brother, Steve. Did it give you any sense of, well, at least somebody has been found responsible to make it feel any better?
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
And just who was the accomplice? Nick Sampson? Just an ordinary guy, the investigators figured. Unlike Matt, he had a job, two jobs in fact. By day, he reconditioned propane gas cylinders. Evenings, he was a cook at Bulldog's Bar in Murdoch. Anyway, once he was printed and processed, they sat him down in an interview room and they asked him straight out, why did he think they were talking to him?
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
It didn't take but a few minutes to figure out how the killer or killers had entered the house. In the laundry room, a screen had been lifted, and a window appeared to have been forced open.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
From there, it appeared, the killer's route might have gone past the now empty Easter baskets that Charmin had made, through the well-kept kitchen, and then up the stairs toward the bedroom, where the stocks were fast asleep. All investigators had to do was follow four 12-gauge shotgun shells that had left a trail to the bodies. By the look of it, the stalks woke up.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
But Nick Sampson was not like Matt Livers. While Matt initially denied any involvement before changing his story and confessing, Nick stuck with one story and one story only. It has absolutely nothing to do with this. During three hours of questioning, Nick denied everything. What I need from you is absolute honesty. I am being 100% honest.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
Wayne tried to get up, but the killer fired a round straight into his knee. So close to him it left a huge powder burn on the bed. And fired again, hit Wayne above his eyes. Charmin tried to call 911, but then the shooter killed her too. And then, a surprise. It became apparent for a very curious reason that it wasn't just one killer, but at least two.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Then, one of the detectives employed a frequently used and often successful technique, the what-if question.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
There were arrangements to make, a funeral to prepare. It was apparent that the local Methodist church would be too small to accommodate all those who wanted to pay their respects, so it was decided they'd have the funeral in the Murdoch High School gym. It was the right thing to do. The place was packed to the rafters. There were speeches lauding the stocks and everything about them.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Then, like Matt, Nick agreed. In fact, he volunteered to take a polygraph.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
With a practiced eye of a man who'd seen plenty of violent death, CSI Commander David Kofod, on the stair landing of the Stalks farmhouse, made an observation that would change the course of the investigation.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
But again, the result wasn't quite what Nick was obviously hoping for. The polygrapher said the tests showed that Nick Sapson was deceptive when he denied being at Wayne Stark's home when Wayne was shot. Just as he had done with Matt Libers, the polygrapher told Nick his own subconscious body had done the confessing for him.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
A void area. In other words, when the shotgun blast was fired, that is the one that killed Wayne Stock, the blood spattered everywhere, except where it appeared that another person had to have been standing. So the second killer was sprayed with blood spatter and like light hitting an object, it created a shadow on the wall behind it. It left a void where there was no blood.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
The fight, flight, or freeze kind of fear that grabs you by the throat. So there was a real, genuine itch in your back that somebody was going to come after you.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
Outside the farmhouse, Kofod and his team found a wealth of evidence, too. The trick was to sort what was innocent and what wasn't.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Polygraph results in hand. The detectives went back at it. Hard this time.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
And beyond the flowerbed, just like the shotgun shells left leading to the stairs, there was another trail of evidence left by the apparently sloppy killers.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
But the investigators did not believe Nick Sampson. After all, Matt Livers had already told them Nick was there. He was behind the whole thing, actually. Matt said they planned it all out in the two days or so before the murder. They talked it through on their cell phones. So, said the detectives, they knew Nick Sampson was lying. just like the polygrapher said.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
Right, right. There's a light. Oh, there's a, you know, it's just too easy. But there it was.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
And then a real breakthrough. A newspaper carrier called in to report that he and his girlfriend had seen something odd. They'd been driving down a country road middle of the night when the murders occurred, about a mile from the stockhouse. And they saw a car just parked on the side of the road.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
But was he? Because the test results from all that physical evidence at the murder scene were beginning to come back. As was the background check on Nick Sampson. Samson, all of 21 years old at the time, had a problem with marijuana as a teenager. He had done two separate stints in boys' homes.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
Strange cars just don't get parked on country roads outside Murdoch, Nebraska at 3 o'clock in the morning. It was tan or light brown. It was a four-door sedan, said the young newspaper carrier. And what really stuck out, he said, was that this same car later passed them in the same area that same night. And this time it was driving 60 or 70 miles an hour. In a rusty way, maybe?
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
And it's a story about certainty. And I'm going to do my level best to hang your ass on the highest tree. Certainty, right or wrong.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
And while he denied being a marijuana user anymore, remember, investigators had found that marijuana pipe at the scene of the crime. Then, when detectives visited Nick's grandfather in Murdoch, the old man told them that a month before the murders, Nick had borrowed a 12-gauge shotgun from him... That's the same gauge weapon that was used in the murders.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
So there were certainly clues. The car seen by the newspaper carrier. The flashlight with what appeared to be blood on it. The marijuana pipe. and the void on the wall that told them they were looking for at least two killers. But a motive? Who knew? Not a thing was missing. No wallet or purse or gun collection was taken. There was even a safe hidden in the bedroom floor, and it was untouched.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Then investigators executed a search warrant at Sampson's home, and among the items seized from under the bed, that very 12-gauge shotgun borrowed from his grandfather, and a pair of blue jeans, which were examined by CSI chief David Kofod's team. Remember, Kofod was the big city CSI guy from Omaha who had been brought in to help.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
But all that evidence and asking questions of those closest to the Stock family would soon pay off. Because just a week later, there would be an arrest, a confession. And it was, indeed, from a member of the family. So the great wheel of justice began to turn. Well, far away, the secret remained, for the moment, quite undisturbed.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
And there was even more, more evidence. Remember that car apparently seen by the newspaper carrier parked just a mile from the farmhouse on the night of the murders? The one described as tan or light brown, a sedan? No. Then later passed the newspaper carrier going pretty fast, 60 or 70 miles an hour on a gravel road. Well, detectives found it.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
A 1997 Ford Contour owned, believe it or not, by Nick Sampson's brother. And the car had been cleaned, detailed actually, at 5.30 Eastern Monday morning, which was just a few hours after Wayne and Charmin's stock were gunned to death. Who details a car at 5.30 in the morning?
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
Coming up in future episodes of Murder in the Moonlight... Him and Dad kind of had a lot of falling outs.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
I was upset. I had a loss of why my own cousin could do this to me. And you said what? You've got to be kidding.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
and found nothing. But then, CSI chief Kofod got a call from one of the lead investigators.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
Murder in the Moonlight is a production of Dateline and NBC News. Shane Bishop is the producer. Brian Drew, Kelly Laudeen, Bruce Berger, Marshall Hausfeld, and Candace Goldman are audio editors. Brittany Morris is field producer. Leslie Grossman is program coordinator. Adam Gorfain is co-executive producer. Paul Ryan is executive producer. And Liz Cole is senior executive producer.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
And it's about a secret hidden far, far away and all but forgotten. A secret that waited for the one who could find the golden key. I'm Keith Morrison, and this is Dateline's newest podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. Episode 1, In Cold Blood. Less than an hour south of Omaha, the prairie takes on a sweet rolling pitch as it tucks into a Nebraska corner.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
So they examined the car again, and Kofod himself, using sterile filter paper, wiped the interior surfaces of the car. And just below the steering wheel, on the dashboard, he found it. A stain. And it looked like blood.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
From NBC News Audio, sound mixing by Bob Mallory and Katie Lau. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
And before long, tests confirmed that what the CSI chief found under the dashboard was indeed blood. The blood of Wayne Stock, the victim. And the only way anyone could figure out how it got there was via Matt Livers and Nick Sampson. So there it was. Persistence had paid off. With a confession and some real physical evidence to back it up, the murders of Wayne and Charman Stock had been solved.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
So it certainly seemed, and of course around the sheriff's office they felt pretty good about that. Certainty set in. They'd bet their careers on it now. And the whole apparatus of the law began to relax a little. Except... Except for the one who found, stumbled on it really, an overlooked little curiosity everyone else missed somehow.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
It was a ring, a gold ring, just lying there in the farmhouse, quite unobtrusively, in a place it had no business being. And no one seemed to have any idea who the thing belonged to. Such a mystery. Coming up in future episodes of Murder in the Moonlight. There were three words in the inscription, two names, and three tiny letters.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
A puzzle, the key to a secret, and the start of a very strange trip. That must have been a shocker to get that information, to have it across your desk. A huge shocker.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Murder in the Moonlight is a production of Dateline and NBC News. Shane Bishop is the producer. Brian Drew, Kelly Laudeen, Bruce Berger, Marshall Hausfeld, and Candice Goldman are audio editors. Brittany Morris is field producer. Leslie Grossman is program coordinator. Adam Gorfain is co-executive producer. Paul Ryan is executive producer. And Liz Cole is senior executive producer.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
From NBC News Audio, sound mixing by Bob Mallory and Katie Lau. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Leading that huge crowd of mourners were, of course, the many members of the Stock's large extended family. watched by a quiet, sharp-eyed contingent of people from the sheriff's office. Detectives scanning the crowd. And not long after, they began to focus on one particular member of the family. I'm on suspicions. Oh yes, families can be complicated with their secret feelings, their resentments.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
Here, the rich black topsoil has grown not only untold bushels of corn and soybeans and stands of alfalfa, but also generations of solid and faithful Americans, a tiny remnant of whom, fewer than 300 or so, planted themselves in a small town called Murdoch, the sort of place where heads turn when a stranger drives by.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
Murdoch began, as did many towns like it in the late 1800s, as a stop on the railroad when the tracks of the old Chicago, Rock Island, and Pacific were extended to this very spot. If you've ever gotten off the interstate and driven America's blue highways, those roads less traveled, you've surely passed through many towns just like Murdoch, Nebraska.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
and private rages. I'm Keith Morrison, and this is Dateline's newest podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. First of all, the fellow investigators we're keeping an eye on was not Andy Stock. In fact, the police cleared the Stock's youngest son, and it didn't take very long. Andy's Easter weekend was entirely accounted for. He couldn't have been the one.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
The railroad is still there, of course, with an elevator and water tower, Murdoch Skyline. Here, junior and senior high schools share the same building, and there are more houses of worship than taverns, though the bar stools are about as worn as the church pews.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
So they returned the grief-stricken man to his family. Now, the name of this man, this person of interest, was not Stock at all, even though he was family. His name was Matt Livers, and he was Wayne and Charmin's 28-year-old nephew. In fact, Matt attended the Easter dinner at the Stock Farmhouse a few hours before the murders. But he wasn't there by virtue of being a family favorite. No.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
A few miles away, this way and then that, down the gravel road outside Murdoch, in a big farmyard, on one particular Sunday, there was an Easter egg hunt, just like there was every year. That year was 2006, the 16th day of April.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
or mom and dad to Tammy, who was 30 years old by then, and brought her own son, of course, like always, to join the many grandkids and nieces and nephews.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
In fact, Matt Livers was considered something of a black sheep, quite unlike the industrious Stocks. Matt had bounced around from one dead-end job to another, never seeming to find his niche, never seemed that interested in having a niche. Instead, he lived with his grandmother, took advantage of her, in the opinion of the rest of the family.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
Mom was Charmin Stock. Her husband, Wayne, was Dad. They were the fifth generation of Starks to work this land, the lifeblood from which their blessings sprang. The land, their land, was as holy to them as any religious relic or sacred chalice could ever be.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
It was late, past midnight. The moon was nearly full, and its pale ghost light spread across the great, dark Nebraska plains. Not quite enough to see much of anything. The moon had no competition, not out here, so far from the polluting light of a city or town of any size. A few farm buildings, caught in the muted glow, threw black moon shadows, and all around was silence. Almost.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
It was 1966 when the archetype of what would come to be known as the true crime novel barged into the culture. In no time at all, that book, in cold blood, was as famous as a book could be. And so was its author, Truman Capote. Unusual man, unusual book. In Cold Blood reads like a novel, though it was a true story, the mean, hard facts of it exhaustively reported.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
Charmin was 55, Wayne 58, and they were generous and steady and always there for their children, the kind of people for whom the phrase salt of the earth seemed perfect.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Even so, Matt's Uncle Wayne had frequently gone out of his way to help the young man get going in life. Not that it did much good.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
The Starks also had two sons. Steve, the tall and quiet one, was 38 back then, and Andy, the youngest, sturdy, baby-faced, was 27. This is Andy.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Still, when family members learned that detectives were looking at Matt, they had opinions. For one thing, they told police, he seemed a bit slow and different. But more to the point, some of them had noticed problems between Matt Livers and the Stalks. They described heated disagreements. Said Charmin disliked Matt. But, said the surviving Stalks, their parents didn't complain about him.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Literary critics called it a masterpiece, though the story was as disturbing as a story could be. Somehow, Capote's masterpiece caught the mood of those turbulent years. In Cold Blood tells the story of a wealthy farm family called the Clutters, Herb, Bonnie, and their two children, murdered during an apparent robbery at night in their farmhouse in Kansas in 1959.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
And they did, every day. Wayne Stock, dad, had a degree in building construction. He was a former member of the National Guard. He and Charman ran the Stock Hay and Grain Company, and a very successful business it was. The Stocks owned a thousand acres of land, along with rental property. Family was everything to Charman's talk. Everything.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
It was a pickup truck by the sound of it, tires crunching over gravel, headlights poking at the night along the country road, as if the driver was looking for something. And there it was, rising out of the dark. A farmhouse. The pickup slowed down, turned in. The driver looked at his companion. This was the place.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
She stayed home when the kids were little, but when the youngest went to kindergarten, she took a job as a teacher's aide at their country school. Did it for 17 years, until it was time to take care of her own elderly mother. They're busy people.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Still, after the murders, well, everyone was a suspect. And Matt was no different in that respect. Again, the Starks' son, Steve.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
They were good examples to all of how to live moral, godly lives with high standards.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
So, a few days after the murders, detectives visited Matt Liver's former employer, asked about his personality, asked about rumors that he had a temper. They assigned officers to keep watch on him. They even went through his garbage. And then, on April 25th, eight days after the murders, investigators asked Matt to come down to the station and answer some questions.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
And that included keeping the house meticulously clean for company, as she did on that Easter Sunday, her last day on this earth, when they went to church and then put on a big family dinner And the highlight of it all, the Easter egg hunt for the grandkids. This is their son, Steve.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Certainly, said Matt, happy to help. And he took a seat in the interrogation room. The conversation was recorded.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
Except, well, except their youngest wasn't there. Not that Andy didn't love the farm and its rituals much as any of them. In fact, they all figured he'd be the one to take over the place one day. But that Easter Sunday, he'd agreed to spend the day with his future in-laws, and so he missed the party. But he left his young puppy with his parents for the day. He said he'd pick up the dog that night.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Well, I'm here to cooperate with you, gentlemen. Okay. He was, or seemed to be, courteous, deferential. He said, almost with a sense of childlike wonder, that he'd never been interviewed by police before. Things proceeded from there.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Of course, the investigators wanted to know where Matt Libers was when the murders happened. Who could vouch for him? And he told them that after the big family Easter dinner with the Stocks, he drove to Lincoln, Nebraska, about a half an hour away, and tucked in with his girlfriend, Sarah. Stayed there all night. Sarah could confirm it, he said.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
It was past dark when Andy pulled up to the old farmhouse to pick up his dog.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Oh, and Sarah's young son and a roommate were there, too. Mind you, he told the investigators, he hadn't always been in his uncle Wayne Stark's good books. He knew he was not exactly a family favorite. And he and his uncle had, well, they had disagreed about a thing or two. A tiff, Matt called it, a minor thing. But this questioning session went on for quite some time, five hours in fact.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
So naturally, a lot of those questions were asked again and again and again. Just a different way of putting it each time. Why so long? Well, there was a reason for that. Matt seemed to know more than he was saying. It seemed like he was hiding something. So, finally, the detective asked him if he'd agree to take a polygraph. And Matt said, yes, he would. So they hooked him up.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
The next morning, Andy drove the half mile from his place back to his parents' farm, ready to go to work. Spring planting awaited.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
And here he was, getting caught. and answering the big question. With that simple no, Mad Livers tried to put an end to it. Surely those cops who'd been badgering him for all these hours, who didn't seem to believe him, would be convinced by the polygraph, right? It would prove he was telling the truth, Matt believed. And now he could finally get out of there and go home.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
Confusing. He walked across the farmyard to the house and went inside.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
And, well, the police believed in the polygraph. Yes, they did. But not quite the way Matt was hoping for. Because the polygrapher told Matt quite bluntly, he failed.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
So they went back to the interview room, where the tone of the questions became quite pointed, accusing even. I, like I said, I want to get my name out of this. I had nothing to do with this. Again and again, Matt denied having anything to do with murdering Wayne and Charmin Stock. More than 100 times.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
The story was so influential, such a cultural touchstone, that even decades after its release, people just couldn't help but see the parallels between the Clutters and the Stock families. They were both good people, successful farmers in the middle of America, attacked in their sleep, murdered in cold blood.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
They gathered up their tools, got out, gently, gently shut the truck's doors, and walked across the yard. It was a big two-story place, old, established. Even in the moonlight, it showed off a little, like people cared about this house, about appearances. Was anyone home? Maybe, maybe not. No sign of life, no movement inside, no dog barked. One of them made a decision.
Murder in the Moonlight
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But the more he said it, and the more insistent he was... Guys, I need nothing to f***ing do with this.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
But really, he had no idea how could he. It was perhaps the central moment in the life of Andy Stock. When he rounded the staircase that morning, in that farmhouse he knew so well, the one he'd grown up in, and saw blood on the walls.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
The more sure the detectives were that Matt was lying, they were quite certain, in fact.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Why were investigators in Nebraska so convinced Matt Libers was lying? Well, in addition to the polygraph, there was a state profiler who suggested that this was the kind of crime committed by young males who knew their victims. And add to that, said the profiler, this was the sort of crime that appeared to be very personal to executions.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
A crime very likely driven by intense personal emotion toward the victims. Feelings like jealousy, anger, revenge. Oh, and finally there was this. The Starks lived in the middle of nowhere, and it made sense that a family member would know exactly where to find them. But a stranger? A stranger would have no idea. If those factors were bells, Matt Livers rang more bells than a royal wedding.
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In Cold Blood
And it was a horrible thing. There is only what came before and what came after. What did you do when you found them?
Murder in the Moonlight
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Loudly. And in that interview room, detectives were losing patience.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Eventually, they got quite explicit, telling Matt that he was headed for death row, unless he would start giving them what they knew to be true.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
I didn't know. The ambulance was there in 12 minutes, the first lawman in 20. Andy stood outside next to his pickup truck, in shock, calling family, without even knowing what happened or what to say. Andy's sister, Tammy...
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
And it was that technique that finally produced the desired effect. Rough, perhaps, yes. But Matt Livers admitted it. As if his denial was too heavy a load to carry, it happened rather suddenly. Here. You got a gun. Right or wrong? Right. Among the traits of a good detective is persistence, and it is prized, because once the door is opened, things spill out. And spill out they did.
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In Cold Blood
But like the rational farm folk they were, 30 miles away and close to the nearest hospital, they did not assume the worst, even when they tried to call Andy back, and he didn't answer.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Six hours, enough time to cook an 18-pound turkey or watch two professional football games. And six hours was enough time, in the face of intense questioning by the detectives, for Matt Blivers to finally break and begin to admit his involvement in the murders of his aunt and uncle, Wayne and Charmin Stock.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
The crime scene people had taken over the house. It was they who saw the worst of it. They found Wayne on the upstairs landing, dead of a shotgun blast. Pretty much point blank. Charmin was in the bedroom. A shotgun got her, too. She was still holding a telephone in her dead hand as if she had been trying to call for help. It was stunning.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
One line in particular, penned by Capote, seemed fitting to describe what had happened to Wayne and Charmin's stock. They shared a doom against which virtue was no defense. Those days that followed the murders were dreadful ones for the three adult Stog children. There was shock and grief and confusion and anger, a whole catalogue of emotions. They tried to keep busy.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
The Stalks were the most unlikely victims anyone could imagine. The Cass County Sheriff knew right away, of course, it was going to be big news. So he advised caution. Do not jump to conclusions, he said.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
Now that the cat was out of the bag, Matt began filling in more of the blanks, the awful specifics of how he killed them, for one thing.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
As Andy Stock waited for his siblings to arrive, he struggled to process it all, as his father's words echoed in his mind. I'll never forget, um...
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
And then a bonus. Remember that blood spatter and the void on the wall behind? That was clear evidence that a second killer was involved. And Matt Livers filled in the blank.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
But it was all happening so fast. Wayne and Charmaine Stark had been gunned down in the safety of their own home, in the sanctity of their own bedroom. Why would anyone want them dead? And who?
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
And who was that second person? Lamatt was beyond denial now, beyond hesitation. He simply offered the name, gave it up without protest. Who was with you that night? Nick Sampson. Nick Sampson? He was a 21-year-old cousin on another branch of that big family tree. And that is how the interview ended.
Murder in the Moonlight
In Cold Blood
They would not enter through the front door as family would, but in quick order, they found a window, unlocked. So, here it was, the way inside. No turning back now. This is a story about fear.
Murder in the Moonlight
Keep Your Enemies Close
They cuffed Matt then, led him off to the county jail, and they sent someone to pick up Nick Sampson. And they charged them both with murder. It was late in the evening when Andy Stock answered his phone and heard the news from one of the detectives. Andy called his sister, Tammy.