Josh Mankiewicz and Keith Morrison sit down to talk about Keith’s episode, “The Woman with No Name”. In 2006, two men out target shooting discovered the body of a woman in the woods of Kilgore, Texas. She had been murdered and her body had been set on fire. She had no ID and, despite their efforts, investigators were unable to identify her. The case caught the eye of internet sleuths drawn to the unidentified woman in the lavender shirt who still had some of her baby teeth. She became known as “Lavender Doe”. Members of an organization called the “DNA Doe Project” took up the cause and offered their help. Using genetic genealogy, they worked tirelessly to track down Lavender Doe’s family and give her back her name – Dana Lynn Dodd. Josh and Keith discuss the dedicated work of the DNA Doe Project and chat about the impact their fathers have had on their lives. Also, Dateline digital producer Veronica Mazaika shares details on some unsolved Doe cases Dateline has covered in our Cold Case Spotlight series. Plus, she asks Josh and Keith a question from a social media follower.Learn more about the John and Jane Doe cases covered in Dateline’s Cold Case Spotlight series :https://www.nbcnews.com/doe-casesSubmit unsolved cold cases to Dateline here: https://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/have-story-share-dateline-submit-it-here-n1297196Watch Keith read Dr. Seuss’ “How the Grinch Stole Christmas”: https://youtu.be/Ty_V5h12RHw?si=Z2HeHerNGxz2qak8Listen to the full episode of “The Woman With No Name” on Apple: https://apple.co/41xrOCfListen to the full episode on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1gnH9lOdKkFwqXIiovqZvs
Chapter 1: What is the story behind Lavender Doe?
Hi, it's Josh Mankiewicz, and we're talking Dateline today with Keith Morrison. Hi, Keith. Hello, Josh. So this episode is called The Woman With No Name, and it's about the 2006 murder of an unidentified woman who was dubbed Lavender Doe because of the lavender shirt. she was found in after she had been murdered.
And an interesting team of people kind of banded together to help find her name, identify her. Now, if you have not listened to this episode yet, it's the one right below this one on the list of podcasts that you just chose from. So you can go there and listen to it. Or if you want to watch it, you can stream it on Peacock and then come back here.
Now, when you come back, Keith has an extra clip that he wants to play for us from his interview with the co-founder of the DNA Doe Project. And then later, we're going to be joined by a Dateline producer, Veronica Mazzeca, to talk about what she's learned from her work reporting on other unsolved cases of Jane and John Doe. So stick around for that. Now let's talk Dateline.
This was an unusual episode of Dayline. It unfolded differently than ones I'm used to, probably also ones the audience is used to. It begins with something that usually doesn't come at the beginning of the episode, which is the finding of a body. Usually we meet the victim. Before we usually we do. But in this case, we were unable to meet the victim. So tell us how this unfolds a little bit.
Well, in this case, we met the victim when she was her body was actually on fire. a really pretty awful scene that a couple of hunters came across, and they, of course, called it in. So the fire was put out, the body was taken to the morgue, and they tried to figure out who it was, and they had no idea.
They did some DNA tests and discovered that she had sex of some kind in the recent past, so they were able to get a DNA profile from the semen. What do you know? It turned out to be an offender they knew pretty well.
At the beginning, he has an alibi, right? They kind of look away from him originally.
Yeah. Then they discover that his girlfriend is also missing and that the family is very worried about her. And that's too much of a coincidence. Right. And he finally confesses to both murders.
But police genuinely believe that he doesn't know who she was.
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Chapter 2: How did the DNA Doe Project help identify Lavender Doe?
Let's do this. He was very frustrated that he couldn't find out who she was to let people know that And that's when these DNA Doe Project people got involved. And DNA Doe is a fascinating organization where people use genetic genealogy to try to nail down who missing people are.
Now, when this happened, that was quite new. Now it's something that we almost take for granted in criminal cases.
Yes. I was at a local event where I live not long ago, and I heard about several cases that the local police department has solved with genetic genealogists just in the last year. So it's becoming rather common.
It is, and it's becoming so common that when we do these stories on Dateline now, it's only a little part of the story. But at this time, it was kind of the story.
It was the story.
It really was groundbreaking. And it also shows you not just sort of what can be accomplished through science, but also sort of the dedication and fascination and obsession, almost, of the people who got involved. Because they didn't know her. They didn't know anything about her. answer.
And it's a web of people all around the country. And Detective Hope, he got right away what the possibilities were for this, not only the technology, but the cooperation. He met with these people and at least he met with them virtually and began to trust them more and more as time went by.
This is all information, the genetic information that they use to identify her. This is essentially what is done in numerous cases, both ones that you and I have covered and other people, usually done to identify killers. You have the killer's DNA, but it doesn't match anybody.
So you look at the panoply of information that is available out there on commercial DNA websites to see whether you can find family members. And then you kind of work backwards from their third, fourth, fifth cousin.
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Chapter 3: What challenges did Lavender Doe face in her life?
And I have no pulse. That's exactly right. When I did it, by the time I did it, the Golden State killer case had been solved. And so I just thought, well, I should do it for that reason. I wasn't actually looking forward to, you know, meeting any relatives that I hadn't met. But I did it just for the sort of law enforcement reason that every little bit of information helps.
Like in cases like this and other murders that you and I have covered, it can make an enormous difference.
Oh, indeed. Yeah, sure can.
When we come back, we have an extra clip from the DNA Doe Project co-founder, Margaret Press.
So one of the founders of this DNA Doe project is a fascinating woman I interviewed named Margaret Press, whose background is as much literary as it is scientific. And she had intended to retire, and instead she found herself getting involved with genetic genealogy, which… was the kind of puzzle that she really thrived on.
And then these other people joined in who are, they call themselves online sleuths, but there were lots of people all around. This invisible web of, or beehive, they like to call it, of tens or hundreds or thousands of people all around the country who are fascinated by these cases, who learn about missing people and who join in the effort to try to figure out who they are.
We're going to listen to some more of Keith's interview with the DNA Doe Project co-founder, Margaret Press. And she's going to talk about what got her interested in the cases of people like Lavender Doe, Jane and John Doe cases.
So I was starting to catch up on my mystery novel reading. And one of my favorite authors was Sue Grafton, who wrote the Alphabet series. And I got up to Q is for Quarry. And I opened it up in February 1st, 2017. I remember the day. And she had an afterword that was startling because she said, this is the first time I've based a story on a real crime.
There was a Jane Doe found in Lompoc, California in, I believe, 1968. who had been thrown into a quarry and never identified. She had written the book 15 years earlier and had actually paid to have the skeleton exhumed so that a facial reconstruction could be done from the skull and DNA could be collected.
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Chapter 4: What was the significance of the funeral for Lavender Doe?
Exactly. And they kind of didn't know much about each other. And the mother, Lavender Doe's mother, was not with her as she was growing up, and she stayed with her sister. Her relatives, who were trying to get their own lives in order, tried very hard to protect her. She was a kid who was naturally troubled, given what she had been through already. And my heart went out to this girl.
She'd had so many strikes against the possibility of her having a normal life. And she was entitled to one, I felt. She had a boyfriend who didn't work out well and she had this and she had that. And eventually she wound up where these young people will be offered deals where they get into the back of a bus or a truck or something and they go off to various towns around the country.
And they're selling magazines. And they're told that they're going to sell magazines on the street and that this will earn them money and they'll be able to, you know, get themselves launched on some other kind of career. You'll be able to afford to go to school, whatever. You'd be able to afford an apartment if you just stick with us and sell magazines.
And then this other guy comes along and she had one more guy who's throwing 10 bucks at her. And, you know, can you really condemn her for... Go along with them. And that's her killer. It's not her fault. And she was killed. And an awful way to die and a terrible way to be treated after she was dead. So it was a sad story.
But one that the good part of it to me was that there are people who are so determined to get to the heart of humanity of these tales. To figure out who it was to honor that person. And in the end, they did. They were able to put her name on a grave marker. And they all, those people who took part in this search, the central ones, they all gathered in that little town in Texas at the cemetery.
And they had a ceremony for her. They had a funeral. And it really was a moving thing.
Yeah, no, I thought that was great. And I loved that the members of the Lavender Doe team had never met until after they had already given her her name back. What was that dynamic like between them when they're all three sitting there?
It was like talking to three siblings. They filled in each other's sentences. So they had communicated enough for long enough that they were very familiar with each other. And they felt comfortable together. You could see it. It was quite a delightful thing to see.
It makes the point that knowing someone, the definition of that is kind of changing. Because they clearly did know each other. I mean, they'd communicated a lot, but it was all probably by email. Sure.
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Chapter 5: How do internet sleuths contribute to solving cold cases?
This is a little off topic. How often did your father sort of give you that kind of lesson? I mean, daily? Annually? I know.
I had to go to his sermons at least twice a week, often more. Right. Yeah.
Yes. And did he say – I mean, I apologize in advance because I'm aware that I'm off topic here, and that always makes you a little bit uncomfortable.
You're also kind of an infidel, so I'm suspicious of you.
I am. I meet every definition of an infidel. But, like, I mean – My own dad never said to me, you know, remember this, son. Like, here's a life lesson for you. He never said anything like that. But he said things, and all these years later, I remember him like he said them this morning. Exactly.
Yeah, precisely. No, I never got advice, personal advice from my dad. I listened to his talks in front of other people.
I have to say, I mean, I know you're not doing this for him, but it sounds to me like he would have loved this story because this was a story about— Oh, exactly, yes. Precisely. This was a story about people doing something for someone that they didn't know that really did not benefit them.
I'm serious when it's said at the beginning. I should go back and reread it to make sure I'm not misrepresenting the tale. But to me, my father's life could be boiled down to a many years long version of the Dr. Seuss story, Horton Hears the Who. And in many ways, that's the only story that a human being who wants to be a empathetic, caring person needs to know. It's a great story.
I advise you look it up.
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Chapter 6: What are the ethical considerations of using genetic genealogy?
The second I start to do an interview, there's a guy outside with a leaf blower or an airplane flies over here. Yeah. So... Every week, the digital team, which you're part of, covers unsolved cold cases for our online cold case spotlight series. And you've also worked on Missing in America with me. And a lot of those cases are John and Jane Doe's.
And so you maybe can talk a little bit about those cases and what it takes to cover them, because it's really sort of not like doing other stories, is it?
Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely a different experience than when we have a family reach out to us about their missing loved one or their murdered loved one. Every single case we feature is sent to us by people who watch Dateline and interact with us on our social media. And the Jane and John Doe cases that we have featured have also been sent to us by people in our social communities.
I've found that a Some person out there that they've never crossed paths with that Jane or John Doe, but they have dedicated themselves and their lives to this person that they don't know.
To be clear, we're not doing the genealogical investigation at Dateline. Correct. You're reporting on these cases.
Yes, that is correct. One of the things that... is helpful in these cases is getting the sketches or the reconstructions or anything that has been created in these cases and getting that out to the public and using our platform to show these things to the general public. And if you recognize this, please call is the goal of telling these stories.
So, you know, Lavender Doe was known by that name because of the color of the shirt that she was wearing. Who's Penny Doe?
Yeah. So Penny Doe is a Jane Doe that was found in Pennsylvania in July of 1990. And inside her pocket, each pocket was a penny. And so she was nicknamed Penny Doe. And there's not a lot of information out there about Penny Doe, but they believe this woman was between 20 and 40 years old. She had shoulder length, dark brown hair.
Penny Doe's body was found in a place called Monroe Township, which is in Clarion County, Pennsylvania. And they don't believe she's from there because they didn't have anyone missing from that area that matched Penny's. the description of this Jane Doe, but also because they believe she came from a place that had fluoride in her water due to her teeth.
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Chapter 7: What impact do personal stories have on solving cases?
So paratrooper John Doe, he was actually found in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, which this hits a little bit close to home for me because I actually grew up there. I have been exactly in the spot where his body was found. He was found on Memorial Day weekend in 1984. His body was found floating in the water.
I did speak to the Fort Lauderdale Police Department, and they said that his death was a drowning and that they did not suspect foul play. However, there is this woman who she actually lives in New Jersey. And back almost 10 years ago, she started an organization called Veteran Doe. And I spoke with her. Her name's Amelia.
That organization is just to identify this guy.
It's not just to identify him. She does work on any cases that seem to have a military connection. And I asked her why she was starting this, like what made her do that. And she said, you know, she had a bunch of military connection within her family. The men in her family had all been in the military. And one of the things she was talking about was that
Because of the military connection, it should be relatively easy to find these people.
That's the first thing I'm thinking is that there aren't that many paratroopers in the world.
Exactly.
I mean, the Pentagon should be able to help you with that. Particularly, also, you know how old he is.
Yes. So he was about 20 years old and he had brown hair and brown eyes. And the thing that she was telling me about that is very specific to this John Doe is that he has two tattoos that she thinks might be the key to identifying this John Doe. One of them is a pegasus with the phrase born to fly free. And the other is a skull with a beret that says U.S. paratrooper.
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