Karen Kilgariff
Appearances
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Well, when you when we talked about that, that was the first time I found out that these two are brothers because I knew about Carrie's murders and I knew about Stephen's kidnapping, but I didn't know they were connected. And that just makes it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
It just, it makes, it boggles the mind, you know, in a way that's like more than just when you think of a serial killer and you're like, how does your brain do that? And then we have this added piece of fucking childhood trauma in there.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Well, so the year after Stephen came back, I'm going to call him Carrie. Carrie's uncle was murdered and Carrie was living with the uncle at the time. But no one considered him a suspect. And Carrie would later claim that his uncle molested him.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Today we're recapping episode 30, which for the first time in 29 episodes isn't named after the number pun. Thank you, Jesus. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Cut to 1997. Cary was hired as a handyman at the Cedar Lodge Motel in El Porto, just outside of the Highway 140 Arc Rock entrance to Yosemite National Park. So just outside Yosemite, Cedar Lodge. The weekend before February 1999,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
he was having these murderous fantasies that had become so intense that he knew he was going to murder someone he prepared a murder rape kit containing a rope a roll of duct tape and a serrated kitchen knife and later a gun and a camera and as far as we know other besides his uncle which may or may not have happened this is his first these are his first murders okay
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
So on Valentine's Day, 1999, Carol's son, who was 42, her daughter, Julie, who was 15, and Sylvina Peloso, who was 16, were his first victims. Carol was initially leery of Carrie when he knocked on their cabin door saying he had to fix a fan in the bathroom. She talked him through the window and didn't want to let him in and only did so after he said he'd go get the manager to like confirm it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
And she was like, no, no, no, no, no. That's OK. You know, the way people do. When they give you the double confirmation.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Right. Then. OK. Yeah. All right. I'll do it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
so but once inside he pulls out a 22 caliber pistol he tells them he's desperate quote and orders them to lie face down on the bed he bounds their hands with duct tape gags them and then he took the two girls into the bathroom he strangles carol with a three foot piece of rope later saying in his taped confession i didn't realize how hard it is to strangle a person it's not easy
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
but I had very little feeling it was like performing a task.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
So maybe don't do it. Yeah, it's harder than one thinks. So after putting her in the trunk of her rented Pontiac, he goes back to the girls, cuts their clothes off, and then he strangles Silviana in the bathroom. And then he sexually assaults Julie in the motel room and then wraps her up Um, and ties, he ties her to the bed. He says he felt like he was in control for the first time in his life.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Called one of the greats. It's called the Fuckword Murder Mystery Show. Find out why by listening to this.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
And he cleaned up the crime scene so well that it appeared that the women had checked out and left when the, when the, um, people came to check when the staff came later to check to see if they were there. They had detected no foul play. Let's see. He even wiped his hair off the bed sheets. And then when the FBI agent asked on tape why he did that, he replied, I watched the Discovery Channel.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Oh, no. Hi, that's all of us. Yep.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Good and bad. Yeah, for sure. So at 4 a.m., he takes Julie out of the motel and drives her away in the rental car with her mother and friend in the trunk. So she's still alive? Yes. Okay. And I don't know. I don't think she knows that those two are dead and in the trunk because he kind of there was two motel rooms that he was going between. And I don't think she ever saw.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
She just thought she was separated. Yeah. So she says he says, I didn't know where I was going or what I was doing. I just kept driving and driving. And he said about Julie, she was a very likable girl. He said crying on tape. She was very calm. So Don is approaching. He turns off at Lake Don Pedro and carries Julie up a dirt path to a small clearing overlooking the water.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
I told her I wished I could keep her, he said. Then he sexually assaulted her again. Finally, he brushed her hair and fanned it out on the ground beneath her head. I told her I loved her, he said, and then he slit her throat.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
I didn't want her to suffer the way the other two did. A too late asshole.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Like, I think because he he choked them manually. He was thinking that it was taking longer. So he slit her throat thinking he was. Comparatively. Yeah. Like thinking he was being compassionate. So he hides her body and he drives the car with the bodies in the trunk as far as he could into the forest.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Then he takes a cab back to Yosemite, pays with the fare with the $150 he stole from Carol's purse. Two days later, he returns to the car with a can of gasoline and scratches, we have Sarah on the hood with a pocket knife. And then he lights the car on fire. Then he drives two hours west and dumped Carol's billfold on a Modesto Street corner to fool the police.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
This is near where you're from, kind of. Kind of. It's the Central Valley. Okay. We're more on the coast. Okay. So more than a month later, the remains of Carol Sund and Peloso were found in the burned out rental car abandoned along a logging road. And six days later, the FBI received an anonymous letter with a crudely drawn map and a message. We had fun with this one.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
And following the map, the searchers found Julie. The detectives began interviewing employees of the Cedar Lodge Motel where the first three victims had been staying just before their deaths. One of the employees was Kerry, but he was not considered a suspect at that point because no criminal history and remained calm during the police interview. Fucking psychopath, right? Oh my God.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
So let's listen to the intro of episode 30. Are you ready? Are you? I'm ready. Let's be really low energy this time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
FBI agents and local police rounded up a bunch of meth heads and sex offenders and told the tourists and residents that they were confident they had the killers in custody.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
that okay so another woman disappears on july 22nd this is joey ruth armstrong j-o-i-e who is 26 she's a pretty redhead who worked for the yosemite institute teaching children about nature oh sweet angel she worked at the let's see that was lone in the isolated cabin where she lived when carrie came upon her man we can't have anything We can't even live alone.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Well, but living in a cabin alone in the woods. Yeah, but guys get to do it. What? Guys get to live alone in a cabin in the woods without getting murdered for the most part.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Or big dogs, big, angry, scary dogs.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
No, I get it. Don't be all chill. Yeah. I wouldn't want to live. I like living in a big city where there's just people everywhere. Yeah. On top of you all the time. So according to the interview, Carrie confronted Armstrong at gunpoint on the front porch of her cabin. Oh, he had a gun. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
He told her it was a robbery and forced her into the cabin and covered her mouth and bound her hands behind her back with duct tape. Then he put her in his sports utility vehicle. SUV. I could have just said that. That's an SUV. Thank you. Someone needed an extra word count in their newspaper piece, right? Did you also draw a picture? Yeah. Page five is just one big picture.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Well, I copied a couple of these sentences and that was one of them. And now I'm like, that guy just needed a higher word count. Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. He said, I lost control of myself and I lost control of her. Let's see. He said, when this started out, I had no intention of cutting her head off, which he later did. Spoiler alert. Man. He says he has no intention of cutting her head off.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
I had no intentions of killing her even the first time I saw her. Yeah, right. Then I started thinking about it. It was in the house. There was nobody in the house with her. She kept walking out by herself and she watered the plants and it was obvious she was taking off and getting ready to go. That's when I started talking to her. So the assistant U.S. attorney said,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
then okay in court papers it was said after he had driven a short distance she dove head first out of the wind through the window out of the moving truck and still bound with duct tape ran through the woods toward the nearby community of Farista to get help hell yeah girl good for you fight your fucking last fight yeah you know I don't know if that was the right saying
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
While Carrie ultimately subdued Armstrong, she fought so crazy and with such passion that Stainer wasn't able to do his normal cleanup job, like obsessive cleanup job. He disposed of her beheaded body in a nearby stream and the head turned up 27 feet away. In a hurry, he fleed. He fled. He fleed. No, he fleed, Carrie. Don't fucking correct me when I say- Letter count, letter count. He fleed.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Sorry to correct you. No, you're right. He fled. A source close to the investigation. Oh my God. I think you were pointing that out. No, I did not catch that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
says it was a fight from start to finish she tried to get away and she almost did get away and those several minutes of struggle left behind a lot of evidence her determined fight for life denied him the chance to cover up the crime scene and it led to his capture and undoubtedly saved other lives yes honey she basically ended it yep by fighting that hard she fucking fought so hard that he lost it and like
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
So in his haste, he left behind footprints and basically his car was seen around the area. It was really distinctive. The tire tracks were as well. And so the vehicle was traced to him and he was arrested. And during his interrogation, he confessed to all four murders. He pled not guilty by reason of insanity.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
And a doctor testified that he had mild autism, obsessive compulsive disorder, and paraphilia. At one point during the trial, the judge, Thomas C. Hastings, had to leave the courtroom so he could compose himself in private because the testimony was so fucked up. Oh, no. He returned several minutes later, red-faced and misty-eyed. A judge.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
The circumstances of this case are horrendous and devastating, he said before announcing the sentence. Kerry was found sane and convicted of four counts of first degree murder by a jury in 2001. He was sentenced to death and is still in San Quentin.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
The quietest. We're the quietest girls. We're so quiet. On podcast. Thanks for being here. It's like spending an hour with us. Thanks. Thinking about things with us.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
He claimed after his arrest, so everyone's like, did you get these murderous tendencies because of the stuff with your brother and all this like horrible stuff that happened as a kid? But he said after his arrest that he had fantasized about murdering women since he was seven years old, long before the abduction of his brother.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
So what are the chances like those two traumatic fucked up things are going to happen in one family? So awful. Okay. And then I went on Facebook and found a hometown murder from a reader. So I'm going to read it. Okay. So Taylor C says in June of 1999, I was 11 and my brother was eight. My family and I went on a road trip to Yosemite from LA and all caps,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
stayed in the cedar lodge motel this is for everyone this is right between the murder of the three women and the murder of a single woman like months before like months in between oh man around 9 30 at night my brother and i were watching batman and robin and we get a knock at the door my mom looks through the peephole sees some dude and asks what he wants he says pizza delivery
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
We had already eaten, so we knew no one had ordered a pizza. My mom tells him as much and he insists that we did. My mom tells him that he must have been mistaken, but he keeps insisting. After a certain point, my mom walks away and assumes he did as well. Several minutes of knocking later, my mom calls the hotel management.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
He must have heard her on the phone because when they showed up, he was gone. My mom filed a police report, but nothing really ever came of it. I think when they caught him, she was briefly interviewed, but because she didn't get a good look at him, she wasn't useful in the case. To think my brother and I could have died while watching Arnold laying down some truly excellent ice puns.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Because they were watching, where'd it go?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Yeah. He must have targeted them. Man. But why would you do it again in the same? I mean, I guess you didn't get caught the first time. Yeah, you didn't get caught. And you're cocky. And he still has the fantasy. Like he still has.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Well, when that when during the trial, when a lot of the stuff is being or when he was listening to his own testimony, he would he would plug up his ears and cry like he couldn't listen to it, even though when he was giving that information during the interrogation, he was like crying.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
like dead you know emotionally dead wow so either that was just for the just for the show for the jury oh that's true or you know maybe he was on anti-psychotics or something at that point and understood or if he was like yeah he was like hadn't processed anything yeah he was confessing yeah OK, we're back. Georgia, are there any updates for this story? Yeah, there are some.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Not the least of which is how Georgia doesn't like stranger things.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
You know, in before today's episode, I was reading a bunch of articles about everything because I'm so curious personally about any other murders he may have committed that we don't know about. And there's just still no information about that whatsoever whatsoever. So that's kind of I mean, I just I feel like it has to be there. But so Kerry Stainer is now 63 years old.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
He's still incarcerated at San Quentin. And as I mentioned, they're looking into him for five other killings dating back to the 80s. And there's just including his own uncle and there's still nothing. And he's never been charged in those cases.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
And then the FBI later revealed that Kerry Stainer originally planned to murder his then girlfriend that he was dating at the time of these murders and her two children. And he attempted three separate occasions, but was derailed when he saw another person on the grounds where they lived, leading him to find his first victims at the Cedar Lodge Motel instead.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
And actually, one of the little girls, one of the daughters of the then-girlfriend, has come forward and talked about him as the perfect stepdad type. And they had no clue whatsoever, of course. Wow. And then her horrible survivor's guilt that she had and just how awfully it affected her life. It's really moving. But yeah, in general, that's just such a fuck story.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
So dark. Just terrible. I know. I think there's a really good documentary out there about this, too, if you want to check it out. All right. Well, let's get to your wild story. Wild, also heartbreaking. This is Karen's story about Clark Rockefeller.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
I don't not like it. I have issues with it. Okay, let's hear it. Well, it reminds me, remember the old Stephen King movies that would be made of Stephen King books that would be on, that were made for TV, like thinner and how ridiculous they were. And if you guys say, what about true or pet cemetery, go back and watch it again. It's the corniest movie, but it would, that was a feature film, right?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
What's the documentary called? It's called My Friend Rockefeller. Yeah, I never got through it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Fair enough. And doesn't he make like everyone happy around him too? Like everyone thinks he's so funny.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
And there was some scary shit. Yes. I love that movie. But if you go back, you're like, Oh, this is so corny. It doesn't hold up. No. Um, and it reminds me kind of, of that, um, Stephen King, like made for TV movies, and maybe it's kind of supposed to. But I also just it reminded me of like someone who doesn't read sci fi made a show about sci fi. Yes.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
I can't even talk to the person sitting next to me on an airplane.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
yeah much less asking people if you can go stay at their parents house oh my god I asked Vince if I can like eat some of his chips because I feel bad about it I can't imagine me like can I stay at your place we met once and just weird and uncomfortable no um
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
And like, I feel like if it's the kind of movie where if someone who had read the book or watching it, which I know there's not a book, but if you were you'd be like,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
But there was no Russian prisoner of war because of or not a prisoner of war of a war. Accused of war crimes or something like that. Yes, like a political person.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Maybe she was like, needed him. Maybe she's like a lesbian and like, he's her family story. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
I'll do it when I meet someone else.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
This was the most important part. Like, I feel like I would have been screaming that if I had read the book.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
They sound like fucking our type of people.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Chichester. That sounds like when I said, what was it? Nancy and St. Nancy. Nancy St.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
That wasn't as bad as Chichester.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Yeah. You stuttered three times.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Oh, that's so sad. Dungeons and Dragons.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Uh-oh.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Big money.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Sounds like what you wear whenever you go out.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Yeah, and you could go get your, like, it just, yeah, there was a lot of, wait, what? In it for me.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Right. And like, well, what is it? What is it made out of? Why did this happen? Why did this person exist? Yeah. Why did they, how did she get out of the, yeah. Yeah. It's, this is another episode of Georgia can't suspend her disbelief.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Or you have a hangover.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
That seems like something you'd want to introduce yourself anywhere but in New York City.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Believable enough.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
I do, however, like The Night Of.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
We'll never be.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Transactions. Lots of... Yeah. Bonds. Bonds. War bonds. War bonds. Polio. Polo? Polio. Polo. I meant polio. I meant polio. You meant the disease. Yeah. Because Roosevelt had that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Where am I?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
I'm so sorry it's so hot in here.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Red flag.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
They were showing photos of him as a kid, like as part of this show. But they were real photos of him as a kid. And I was like... I want that DNA inside of me. I want that baby. That sounded gross.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
So she adopts this kid. And he's this, like, great nerd. And she loves him so much.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Because who wants your DNA inside me? That's like a serial killer Valentine.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
And then he takes off.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Yes. Oh, that's the saddest thing I've ever heard.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
So Linda might be out in the world. They think she's dead.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
I don't want to sleep with him. I have a husband that I love who...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
I want to see him like a mugshot.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
He looks like he is a character in The Simpsons.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Stephen, you've been killing it. We appreciate it. Thank you for all your help. Elvis is sitting there waiting. Elvis, it's your big chance.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Do we do it before or after we say? Elvis, you want a cookie? You want a cookie?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Okay, we're back. Karen, any updates? There are updates.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Can we get into a thing here? I guess we could. Like kind of a fun.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
It'd be good for the podcast. Yeah. It's a very long podcast. long show. I love it though. Episodic. Okay, two things. It's like a play. It is like a play. I would watch a whole show of just John Turturro and about his eczema. Didn't know there were eczema support groups. That's fascinating. Those poor people. They can't date.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
How wild is it that both of the murderers in this story are in San Quentin right now as we're speaking? Oh, yeah. Do you think they fucking...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
And if we were naming it today, which, you know, that's a classic name, what would we call it based on something we said in this episode? So the quietest girls on the podcast, because that's us, obviously us.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Spoiler alert before our burps, for sure.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Right. It's also like, OK, but did that air like five weeks ago? Like what's the cutoff? It's not on us anymore.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
We're spoiling a rear window for you. I mean, I don't think.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Was that awful? Yeah. That's amazing. And then last night, yesterday, when I watched it, Janet Colgate is now a character from Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. What? You know, the female lawyer? Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. I got so happy. You named her name, Janet Colgate. When she came on screen, I said it in the accent that was said, and I think Vince was like, Who did I? What did I marry?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Wait, what's that actress's name? You think I can remember her character from a cheesy movie from the 80s, but I can't remember her real name. Her name is. You get this. You always get this. I know, but it's hot. Elizabeth. Nope. It's.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Yeah. It's gone off. I... Did you like the ending that they left it open, obviously, for a second season?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
They ended it in a way that was there's just like no satisfying ending. Can I tell you? Because do you think they're going to be a season two? Well, Nancy and Steve are still together. What? Yeah. But she didn't love him. Does she? She doesn't. Does she love fake Ben Schwartz? That's all I could see when I saw him. Did you see that?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
He looks so much... He's like Wasp Ben Schwartz.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Everyone look at Ben Schwartz, I promise. Nothing wrong with him, but I just couldn't see that character.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
I feel like I just I should have spoiled alerted that. Yeah, that's a big spoiler.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
I feel like I just burped really loudly and like without warning anyone or saying excuse me before or after. Excuse me.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Meow, meow, meow, meow. Mimi's got to have her spot in the... Yeah, this is it. She's come to shine. Ready, Mimi?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
I try not to do this, but someone who makes the memes needs to get our logo and change it into... Say it one more time because it makes me so happy. The Fuckword Murder Mystery Show.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Can I read you something that's probably going to make you want to cry? Yes. Liz C on the Facebook page says, I'm 19 years old and fighting cancer at the moment. Oh, no. Ready to cry? Yeah. My dad and I listened to the podcast on the way to the hospital and back. Oh, it's a great way to keep my mind off things. Except now I'm scared to get murders. LMAO.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
I can't wait for the new shirts to come out. I'm definitely going to be wearing it to the hospital. Love all you murderinos. And then there's 200 comments, including mine that says your neck shirt is on the fucking house. And what's her name? Liz, Liz. Yeah. Liz.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Yeah. Murder, cancer. You're going to be the smartest person you know because you've dealt with this thing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
And my family who was there for me when I like that we were able to get through this together. The fact that her dad listens to that on the way to this bullshit. You guys.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
That's amazing. And then, of course, you better believe that some awesome murderino created our logo with this brand new title. We'll put it up on the Instagram and on all the socials. It was Jason Klein. Jason Klein was like, the wife's out of the house.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Apparently, we really loved Stranger Things. I don't remember having that sort of passion. I don't either. The first season, I think, was fucking excellent. And that's why.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Mystery, 80s mystery with like great clothes, music.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
Yes. The scenery is just like spot on. There's like a missing child aspect to it, which is always exciting.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
All right. Settle in, Karen. Okay. Okay. Get ready to hear about something we've talked about, we've touched on before. Okay. But we never delved into. Okay. The Yosemite murders, Carrie Stainer. Wow. As we know, and we've talked about, Cary Stainer, here's just like the beginning of the fucked up-edness. Cary Stainer was the big brother of Stephen Stainer.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 30: The F*ck Word Murder Mystery Show
If you'll remember, in 1972, was kidnapped and held captive by a child molester named Kenneth Parnell. Cary was the older brother, and he was... 11 years old. When it happened? Yeah, when it happened. And Stephen, the brother, was held captive more than seven years before escaping. That itself is a fucked up story that you guys should look up.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
This is exactly right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
A little bit sometimes depends. We still have that P.O. box, right?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It's pretty great. You guys have been very generous over the years. But if you haven't been generous, you still have a chance. The P.O. Box is My Favorite Murder, Inc. at P.O. Box 39585. LACA 90039.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It's fine. Don't worry. It's about something else. It's cute. Don't worry about it. You're like, as if that would be the creepiest thing that's ever happened at a P.O. box. Come on. Grow up.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And it also just lets people know that you can have a little wider perspective when you're feeling insecure, when you're feeling like you have self-doubt, that like you have to think about what's gone on in the world for the last couple of thousands of years and how dumb a lot of people have been. And they weren't insecure.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
So like you can fucking do it too. Get out there with your talent and your brains, please.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Everyone's doing an incredible job. It's very important to have other people help you keep perspective. You can't do it for yourself all the time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
That's right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Might as well.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Well, and it's that kind of thing where like when you thought of the idea of people sending in their hometowns, the idea is there's so many people that have like these kinds of connections. It didn't happen to you. It didn't happen in your family, but it happened in a way that affected you. It's like Michelle McNamara in I'll Be Gone in the Dark, where it's like these things happen around us.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And it affects us. And watching how it affects other people affects us. And if you're an empathetic human being, you know, the fact that these senseless murders happen, there is a ripple effect. And that ripple effect matters. And people, there is the tragedy and there's the part that shuts people down entirely. And then there's the part where then people die.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
become detectives, they become forensic scientists, they become victims advocates. Like, you know, the ripple effect isn't sometimes can actually end up doing good, which is a pretty cool thing that I think as this podcast progressed, we started to get a handle on where it went less from the salacious kind of, oh, Ted Bundy.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And I mean, there's no better proof of that than web sleuths, people that are online actually doing that work.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
that could actually get cold cases solved like that's real and that is has nothing to do with like the the media aspect of it it's like the people going and trying to help get the job done like the dough network yeah all of that it's incredible it's incredible all right well let's listen to karen's hometown story the murder of poly class
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Distinctive. What if it was like 70s newscast kind of like... That'd be good, right? This just ends...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Check out at shopify.com slash murder, all lowercase, and learn how to create the best retail experiences without complexity. That's shopify.com slash murder. Goodbye. Who's going first this week? I think it's you. Skipper times, come back to us, Skippers. Oh. If it's mine this week, if I go first, I've been, this past week has been quite crazed.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
No, no, no, I can go. But I just want, I just need a little ramp up of, I had plans and schemes about what I was going to do and then realized I needed to do more work uh, like really dig in and do some serious research.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Cause that's the thing is sometimes you go to talk about, so I want to do Ted Bundy because I'm, uh, three quarters of the way through that and rule book, the stranger beside me, which is amazing. There's other people on the Facebook page reading it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Um, so I love that, that we're reading it at the same time, but I, when I do it, it should be comprehensive and not, you know, half ass cause he is, he's pretty much one of the most famous serial killers of our time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I'll say what I'm passionate about about Ted Bundy. But no, when I do it, it's going to be a three-hour presentation. Okay. I'll just take a nap. Okay. Just read the book on the podcast. Yes, exactly. In kind of a slow, low voice where people are just like, all right, I was trying to get through my workday, but whatever you feel like doing is fine. Yeah, this podcast has changed. It's a bummer.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I lean back on the couch like a kind of like an old drunk hobo leans on a park bench. Right, Steven? Steven had to put his hand over his mouth. It was that accurate. Because it's so true. He's like, I'm seeing, it's as if my hat is tipped forward. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
No, so I figured I would go back to my roots. And I'm going to do my hometown murder, which is the most famous murder from my hometown, which is the Pauly Class murder.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And the other reason I'm telling this is because not only was it a firsthand experience, I didn't live in my hometown when she was kidnapped. Um, but I lived in San Francisco and I would go home for holidays and I was back and forth all the time. Um, but Polly Klaus's mother is a woman named Eve and Eve was my boss at the last job I had when I lived in Petaluma, which was at...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
The natural fiber children's clothing. Oh my God. Dun, dun, dun. It comes back around. So I actually didn't mean to make that reference, but then I was doing it. I was like, oh, I'm probably doing this on purpose subconsciously. But it was very strange because it's, there's a lot of, a lot of the times we look and we research these stories and,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And it's these places that are like, you know, when we when we talk about like the police messing up an investigation or things, you know, things getting screwed up or whatever. A lot of times it's because it's towns that have never had a crime to that degree, a murder or kidnapping or something where people don't have the experience.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And most of their career as a cop is pulling people over, you know, giving people like DUIs and stuff.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah. And people and all police stations are and cops are more connected because of the Internet. Yeah. So that's like that whole East Area Rapist, the Golden State Killer thing where there were, you know, there were police departments who were keeping information from each other because they were the ones that wanted the collar.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
That's it's like all of that in the way that, you know, that criminal science is kind of developing because of the Internet. So my hometown is Petaluma, California. And it is one of those towns where when I was growing up there, I think the population was somewhere around 32,000. So it was a small farm town, basically. So the main town itself, there was like the downtown area.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
The east side had like more of like the newer development tract homes and Um, kind of everyone on the East side had like a two story house. Um, but on my side, on the West side, that was out where all the dairy and chicken ranches were. So that's, I grew up five miles outside of town. And, uh, so we basically were, it was the country.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And so when we, like when I was growing up, we didn't have cable. Holy shit. We only had four channels. We only got four channels on our TV and we couldn't get pizza delivered to our house because we live too far out of town. And that was how a lot of kids I knew grew up.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah. It's it's weird. It's like, you know, we didn't have sidewalks. We didn't have we didn't have streetlights. Holy shit. So at night, I think now they do on the street that I grew up on. But like at the time, like there was when you drove at night out where I grew up, it was pitch black.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It's so fun. When I go to my dad's house for like holidays, I get out of the car and I stand in his driveway and they'll be like, come on, crazy. It's stars from like horizon to horizon.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Because Georgia doesn't fuck around with full length anything. You're all about the leg. Yeah, that's true. I do show a lot of leg. Because it's, you know why? That's summer Georgia in full effect. Full effect. Thank you, whoever made that. I did a kind of rude thing. I posted the picture Summer Karen in full effect on my Twitter page.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
We can never see stars here. Never. And people that live in like... Oh my God, if you live in like... kansas yeah like somewhere that's like kind of low population and and no light pollution totally Dang. Dang, dude. We used to lay out at nights in the summertime. Our next door neighbor, the Withingtons, had a pool.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And we would sometimes have like a slumber party where we'd all lay in sleeping bags next to their pool. And we would lay on their chaise lounges and look up and there would just be shooting stars all night long. That's all we did was go, there's one, there's one, there's one. It was awesome. That's amazing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
So anyway, that's basically the feel of this town. This was the kind of town where, and I think I've told the story before in the show, but like in my town, um, it one time a guy on the street tried to purse snatch a lady's purse and And everyone on the sidewalk chased him up the street. Yes. It's that everyone knows each other. Everyone's from there.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
People like stay there, grow up there, stay there, raise their kids there. There's generations and generations of like ranching people of all kinds of people. So it's cool. It's I feel now I feel lucky when I was growing up. I was like, get me out of here. I want to go to Manhattan.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Um, so when this happened, it happened, it was a little house that was on the, uh, a little Walnut Park that was, I think it's Walnut Park. Um, a little park that's in the kind of city center. And it's really cute. My friend, Heidi Peterson's mom actually had a house. So it's basically a park in the center and then the, you know, four streets squaring around. So it wasn't rural.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
No, they lived downtown Petaluma. Wow. So they lived walking distance. Like the main part of downtown is like Petaluma Boulevard and Western. And that's where like the really old buildings, the old two and three story buildings are. They lived probably 10 blocks from that part of town. So, but still, and this was, this happened in 1993. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
But even then, this was the kind of town where people did not lock their front door. Yeah. You just didn't. There was no reason to.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It was I think that's also that that's that thing of like people as as we get older and this kind of like 2020 generation grows up. Yes. It's that thing of like now we just know what happens to other people.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
as adults because we because we know the possibility right we didn't understand the possibility as much I think yeah but also in these small towns that it just didn't happen there so it wasn't like you're like well we should be careful anyway it'd be like don't be weird like there's no reason So on October 1st, 1993, Polly was having a slumber party with two of her friends.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And Eve was in the front of the house. Her mom was in the front of the house. And somebody came in their back door, walked into her bedroom. And the rumor is that he said, which one of you lives here? Now, I know a bunch of small town rumors about this case and they could completely be bullshit. But I'm basically just telling you this. Oh, I want to hear those.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And then after I did it went, I probably should have found out who made that. Oh, right. I didn't have the name.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
She at the time was 12. Okay. And so were they sleeping already? They were all awake. They were awake and like doing slumber party stuff. And the mom was awake and everything? Yes. Holy shit. Yeah. So he tied the friends up first and put pillowcases over their head. And then he took her out of the house. And he told them to count to a thousand or he'd kill them. Jesus.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
So once they heard him go, they got free and then ran to the front of the house and said someone took Polly. Good for them. So the other thing is Dave Anthony, the co-host of The Dollop, my first comedy boyfriend, when we lived in San Francisco, he still worked at the bank in his hometown, which is Novato, the town next to my town.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Going south to San Francisco. And his boss at that bank, his daughter was one of those two girls. Oh, shit. So when this shit kicked off, it was like everyone you knew was affected in some way. Everyone you knew knew a person.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Everyone you knew... Like my sister's best friend, Adrienne, who is basically like my sister too, she pulled out a photo album one time because she also worked at Bio Bottoms. That job was actually really awesome. It was like paid you way more than minimum wage. And we basically just sat there from like six in the morning until two in the afternoon and took calls and took orders.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And so you could actually make kind of a good living and then have the rest of your day done. So she was like a young mother. She worked there with me. She pulled out a photo album one time of there was somebody had a baby shower and everybody was there and Eve brought Polly to that baby shower. So this girl was like, it's that thing where it's not just, oh, a girl from our town. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Everybody knew this family.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Well, and I think that's also that thing that ties us into it is because like I remember the first time I went home, my sister called me to tell me that it happened. And the first time I went home, I drove... So to get off the freeway, I have to drive up Petaluma Boulevard. And then my parents now live... My dad lives in town.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
They finally... Of course, when we graduated from high school and moved out, that's when my parents moved into town and got cable. Okay. And ordered pizza constantly. They didn't have cable until you left for college? No. No, I... My friends would talk about the Brady Bunch. That was like on Channel 44, which was like, oh, that's the San Francisco station that like other people have. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
We just had dipshit Gilligan's Island.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah, it's so weird. And also because my dad's a fireman, which is this classic move of firemen, which was we have cable in the firehouse. We don't need that shit. So he saw all the terrible stuff that cable provided and he was like, I'm keeping that away from my kids. And yet it didn't make a fucking difference. Look at you now. look at the things I'm talking about and how much I say the F word.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It has no, it had no bearing on your life at all. I think it pushed me the other direction. That's why I'm a Satanist. Just kidding, dad. He's not listening to this. So anyway, what the first time I came home after my sister told me about it, I'm pretty sure it was for Thanksgiving. Um, Or maybe it was somewhere in the middle of November. The entire town, because Polly's favorite color was purple.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
The entire town and every fucking car had a purple bow on it. Like a purple ribbon, like the yellow ribbon for soldiers. There was purple ribbons for waiting for Polly to get found. How long had she been gone by that point? Well, she got kidnapped on October 1st. Wow. And so this was probably three weeks later. It was everywhere. And it was like, it gave me the chills.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
By the time I got to my parents' house, I was crying. Oh, no. It was so heavy. Then my sister, who loves to be this person, started telling me all the stuff that she heard. And apparently, so that happened the night of October 1st. The next day, they had to tell all the kids at Petaluma Junior High because she was in, I believe, seventh grade. Yeah. And she is the beginning of seventh grade.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Like if it was October, she'd probably only been in school for a couple months. They made the announcement that she was missing and they had flyers that said, have you seen me? And they said, after school, we want you all in. to hand these out everywhere you can. The kids took the flyers and all got up and left school right that moment and went out into the town. Are you crying? Yep.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
My sister told me that story and I sobbed for like 10 minutes straight because it's like these kids, this was a girl that was their friend. This was the girl they had a crush on. This was like a real person, a human being. That someone just fucking took out of her room. I mean, it's so brazen that it's... It's a nightmare.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Exactly.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
How do you protect yourself? You can't blame anything. Yeah, exactly. And, and also that, yeah, it's just, it's every parent's nightmare. It's every kid's nightmare.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
So the young, the young children of that class in Petaluma High, Petaluma Junior High, I've always had just this, like the biggest warm spot in my heart for them because also it was just like, we don't give a fuck. Like put us on detention. What are you going to do? We are going to go do everything we can to help find her. Yeah. And how can you sit through the rest of the school day.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I mean, I get it. I mean, I'm sure, you know, but it's just, it was kind of just a beautiful, incredibly sad thing and the whole town took it that way. I mean, everybody, you know, they, so Winona Ryder is from my hometown. Okay. And she... I think she also grew up out in the country like I did. And she went to Petaluma Junior High and Petaluma High School.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And she came back and she made the announcement when they were still looking for her. So they ended up finding her... Or no, they... they ended up like making an arrest near the end of November, the beginning of December. So somewhere in there, like at the end of November, Winona Ryder went on TV and made an announcement at national news saying, this girl's missing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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If you've seen her, we love her. She's part of the community. This is my town. Like all the shit where, you know, I'm sitting in an apartment in San Francisco watching it being like, this is so weird. This is my, this is where I grew up. This is my whole life. And like, and it's everyone going like, yeah, this is, this is our girl. Like we have to find her and someone has to do something.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Exactly. I freeze up. I have perfectionism. And then I'm, yeah, I just go fuck it. I've spent my life saying fuck it, essentially.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
So the horrible part of all of it is these, the, the policemen, the Petaluma police actually immediately called in the FBI. They did all that stuff that, uh, we talked, we talked about like, and there's other store Novato, uh, That other murder, that young girl where they just immediately call the FBI like they know they're in over their head. They do the whole missing persons thing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
But the problem was the night that it happened when the APB went out, it went out on the sheriff's channel, which was channel one. And that night, there was some Sonoma Valley police officers that found... So a woman was babysitting at her boss's house, and she saw a car that was on her boss's private road.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And so she called the police and said, I don't know who this guy is, but there's a car sitting down there stuck in a ditch and someone needs to come. So it was the from from what I saw on Wikipedia, it said Sonoma Valley Police. I'm not sure if that's accurate or what area they were in. Yeah. But it was it was somewhere kind of in the rural part.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Um, cause so it all goes kind of starts going by County. So it might've been Sonoma County sheriff, Sonoma County police, whatever, but they call the police to go out there and the police who went were on channel three. This was before they had united all of the APB channels. So if the APB went out for the sheriff's department, it only went out to the other sheriffs on channel one, I guess.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Now they have it because of this kidnapping and this murder. Um, They changed all of that. So the second an APB goes out in 911, whatever thing like that, everybody hears it on all of those channels. But it wasn't like that then. So these two cops go up and they check this guy out. They don't know. They don't like how he looks. They don't like where he is. They don't.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
They're asking him a bunch of questions. He's got an open container. He's clearly been drinking. He's got leaves in his hair. He's got shit on him. And but they searched the car. There's nothing going on. There's nothing in the car. So there's nothing they can do. They told, they really didn't like they just the feel of it, knowing nothing about what was going on.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
They didn't like him, but they told the, um, and this is going to sound blamey, but it's, it's one of those things where it's like you, it's better to overdo it than not do anything at all. Definitely. Because they told the, uh, property owner, um,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
you need to make a citizen's arrest so we can arrest this guy because we can't... There's nothing that's going on that we can do anything about because this is a private road. It's your property. So you need to come out and say, I want... You're under citizen's arrest and then we can take him away. And the property owner was like, I don't want to do that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah. So... So they have to let him go. Yeah. But what they did was they did... They basically did every little piece. This is like now the opposite of most of the stories we hear. These cops did every little piece of paperwork they possibly could about this guy. They took his name. They took all the information about his car, where they were, the report and everything. And they filed the thing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It's called like an F1 file or something like that. And it was the one thing that they could basically do was fill out this... what is it called? It's called an, it doesn't really matter. It's like an F1 card or something like that. That basically says, this was an event that happened that the police got called to that we don't like, but there's nothing we can do, but it happened.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And we want people to know. So they did that immediately. And then when did they find out that that's who that was? Sorry, it was an FI card, a field interrogation card. So they have all his information. They have the car information. And what happened? Sorry, what was the question? That makes sense. So when did they realize who it was?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Oh, okay. So once they left, they don't know. On November 28th, so then it was basically two months later, that same property owner is inspecting her property after loggers partially cleared the property of trees. And she discovers items that make her think that they might have matched those used in the kidnapping. Oh, no.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I like this.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
So the sheriff's department goes out there and they find a torn pair of ballet leggings that match by the FBI crime lab to the other part of the leggings that were taken as evidence the night of the kidnapping. So they basically... The theory is that he had already taken her out of the car and hidden her out in these bushes while and then went back to the car.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Then the cops pull up and he's just like, yeah, you can look at any shit that I want because she's tied up in the bushes over there. They don't know whether or not he when they arrested this guy. So this guy's named Richard Allen Davis. Okay. He is on par with Charles Manson in how many times he has been arrested, been in jail, like the worst record, miles long. He wouldn't tell them anything.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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He wouldn't tell them the events. Once he confessed that he's the one that killed her... He wouldn't give them details of anything. So they would try to walk him through it and he just wouldn't say what happened or what he did or anything. He just admitted like they had all the enough evidence to bring him to trial. And he basically was like, yeah, I did it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
But he didn't he didn't tell them he didn't. They don't know if she was murdered that night. They don't know if he kept her for longer. But she wasn't found. Her body wasn't found there. Her body was found off of the 101 freeway pretty far north up in Cloverfield, which is like it's so weird to like when I you hear all these things like these are the towns where we played basketball.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
We played against them in softball in high school. It's like the town you would go to. We would go there on our way to Blue Lake, on our way to vacation. Right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah. So it's just like, you're just thinking as you drive up, it's also rural up there anyway, but as you drive up, you just look out and somewhere off the side of the highway, there was a little girl's body buried.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It's really awful. essentially the three strike law was put into place after this case happened because this guy had such an insane record where it was like you can't just get arrested for a ton of terrible shit like 50 times in your life and just keep getting out and keep doing stuff like this he was pretty awful so he admitted to strangling her to death
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It's so good and bad at the same time. My grandma's saying was, be quiet now. No. Is she Romanian?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
But that's all the information that he would give. I wonder why he wouldn't because he was toying with them.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
He was super weird. So when they when they put him on trial, he did a bunch of weird shit. He flipped off like the jury like he was Mancini in that way where he it was stuff like before they arrested him in my town. There was the rumor was that the father did it. Oh, fuck. And it was because they were like, he owes money for gambling. He's this, he's that. And the father was on TV constantly.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
If you remember anything from this case, you remember Mark Kloss being on TV and talking about her. So I think a lot of people in my town, their reaction to that was like, it seems like you're enjoying this. publicity a little too much. Wow. Looking back, that poor guy. Yes. What an awful thing to say. Yeah. Well, that's small town gossip. You know what I mean?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
She was a vampire or something. I'll be quiet now. She was a gypsy. I only saw her once.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Where everyone's looking for the answer. And so it's easy to get a target on your back. Sure. And also, it's one thing to be on the news crying and being like, I need my daughter back. But I don't know. It was easy to kind of put that on him because I think he was a zealot. But I mean, you know, it's that thing of like, we don't know how people grieve. Right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And he could be the kind of person that's like, I just need to do something with myself. Sure.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, who's to say how you would act or how it would be. Here's the good news, if any, about any of that. There's a there's now they took the there's this little church that in this weird part of the road where I go to go to my dad's house and
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And they took that and that's now called the Polly Kloss Center for the Performing Arts because she was big into theater and she wanted to be an actress. And that was why it meant so much that Winona Ryder came back and talked about her. It was all very sweet. So they've kind of dedicated that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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to like kids you know making sure kids like I guess have a place to perform and I don't know it's for that part it's very sweet and positive um and the thing about they basically all the things that got fucked up in the beginning of with through communication they actually did stuff about sure yeah that's great like the APB thing and the three strikes law they're like a lot of
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Good things came out of that. It's amazing. But also Richard Allen Davis actually had to get put into solitary because he was getting beaten up so much. So God bless like that jailhouse justice. Like they couldn't they couldn't wait to beat this man up for killing this girl.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
But they actually... And he's on death row. He got the death sentence. So he's still alive now? He's still alive because California doesn't ever really execute anybody. So it's just... It's people sitting on death row. But his lawyers actually tried to say... They tried... They have tried to get... Where is this part?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
They basically tried to say that it's torturing him by making him wait to find out when he's going to be executed. Oh, please. They tried to make that argument that it's like... What do you call that? It's called the inhumane...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Something along those lines. When I read the paragraph, I was just like, you got to be fucking kidding. Who would actually have the balls to say that out loud?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Oh, let's walk away from it. No, no. Like, just try it. Why don't we try it?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah. It must be hard. I would never want to be a lawyer. No. Oh, cruel and unusual pun. There it is. Yeah. That's the one we were looking for. Wow. Yeah. That's sad. So that's mine. I actually had a lot of guilt for not doing this story earlier because it's my real hometown murder because I knew it was really a part of my life. But then also it feels bad to talk about.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I actually hesitated in saying her mom's name because I don't want it to seem like I'm trying to do anything.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I don't think I have either.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Okay. Also, there was, this is, there was another little girl that got killed in my town that no one talks about because she was Black. Her name's Georgia Moses. And that story is really sad and awful. I'll do it a different time. But that actually gets brought up a lot in tandem with Poly Class because it's like, Poly Class was a beautiful little girl who was like, you know, she was...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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No, she wasn't blonde, but she was. Let's say she was blonde. But it's that thing of like, you know, the press loves like a beautiful little martyr like that. Yeah. And then when it's a story of a girl who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks and had all the worst in her life and then was just murdered, like just thrown away. No one talks about it. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Except for Tom Waits, who lives in my town, who lives way out in the country, wrote a song.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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No. I just think it's like, you know what? It's all around us. That's kind of the thing that I feel like keeps coming up on this podcast. It's like, this isn't special. No, I know. It happens. The people that it happens to are and it's a full on tragedy. in ways that you can't even take in. But it happens constantly.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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box. I know, but man. What do you think? Someone's going to go stand by the P.O. box and wait for you? Yeah. Yeah. No, that's the whole point of P.O. Boxes is there's someone that works there. And if someone's just start standing by a P.O. Box, they're like, hey. Right. Hey, weirdo with the kitchen knife, get the fuck out of here.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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So horrible. So horrible. Yeah. I mean, everything about this story is horrible, obviously. There are a few updates on this case. In May of this year, Richard Allen Davis's attorneys argued that his death sentence should be recalled because of recent changes to California sentencing laws. A California judge rejected the resentencing bid, and Davis is still on death row.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And the Poly Class Foundation, a national nonprofit focused on recovering missing children and promoting child safety policies, has assisted, to this date, 10,000 families in locating their missing children. That's incredible. If you want to donate to the Poly Class Foundation or learn more about them, please go to poly.org. The name Polly, P-O-L-L-Y, K-L-A-A-S.org.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Make a little donation to Poly Class Foundation. That'd be amazing. Let's do it. I would love that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah, that'd be great. Thank you. Oh, also, I talk about this. There was a kind of a parallel case that I brought up in this story, which is is the murder of Georgia Lee Moses, which is, I believe, still a cold case. And Georgia Lee Moses was a young black girl. I think she was 13 years old or 12 years old. And she was found.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I mean, I've already you've heard me say it if you just listen to that clip, but it didn't get really any coverage.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah. We had Derrica and Natalie Wilson on the podcast. I mean, when was that? Was that like two years ago? That was during the pandemic, for sure. Oh, my God. But they were amazing. We got to talk to them about this foundation, about the work that they do. I believe there was an HBO podcast. docu-series about them. Definitely go watch that. Incredible.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Okay, now it's time for Georgia's story, and she tells the legendary story of the murder of Kitty Genovese. This podcast is sponsored in part by Midi Health.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Right now, they're offering Prove hormone test kits free to the first 200 My Favorite Murder listeners who sign up for a MIDI virtual visit like Georgia clearly did.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And yes, MIDI health services are covered by most major insurers.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I just saw that invitation and I was like, it was a big long thing about being invited, but there were no details where I was like, what time? Like where? Yeah. What? And then I just kind of gave up after that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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This is like now we're opposite seas again. This is where I'm brave, where I would just be like, Come at me. Give it your best. I'm terrified. I know, but who cares? I mean, you could take a nice swing at somebody. What a stupid way to die, though.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I wouldn't. P.O. Box is like the most vague. Like if it's a city, you don't even know if the person lives in that city. You just got the P.O. Box. And also this is Los Angeles. There's so many people here. So like I almost want to say millions.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah, that's so understandable. I don't know how people deal with that when they find out the details of horrible things that happened to their... Like those next of kin. I mean, it's awful.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah. It's like... But also it's New York City. I know. It's that thing where, yeah, you don't... What are you going to go out there and who knows what's actually happening?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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But it makes sense in that city setting. Yeah. Like anything can happen and you just don't know. Yeah. Right. You put your life at risk for a stranger who could turn around and be like, get the fuck out of here. Totally. You don't know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Well, those are people that are like, I've had plenty of trouble. I I'm not doing it anymore. Right. You mind your fucking business.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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sounds fucking right i dare say that sounds right okay all right and also no offense but there's better p.o boxes to stand next to everything was great up until you just said that and now i'm dummies than you so sad there's so many better dummies in this town oh no thank you don't be sad i meant that in the complimentary way is there one No. But I mean, Justin Timberlake lives here somewhere.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
What?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah, it's pretty sick. I have to say, I've seen a picture of that guy. He has very plucked eyebrows.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Where am I? Oh, no. No, that's exactly right. He looks like a drag queen at the end of her shit. Like washed it all off, is ready to just, you know. High cheekbones. High cheekbones, very plucked eyebrows or something. Like a cat-like face. Yes. Oh, God.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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That is Ted Bundy action. Ted Bundy was a psychology major. Son of a bitch.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And they know...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Much sadder.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Well, you know what? How about you put your super sociological mind to that and say, then maybe don't stab people and you won't be so deeply victimized by your fucking shit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Well, that's this is the Brock Turner thing of like this. This drunken girl is ruining my whole future. It's like no rapist. Yeah. You ruined your future. Yeah. You did it, dummy. Like it's they it's that it's very psychopathic. It's like you skip over the thing you did that made things happen.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Oh, yeah. I asked that because I'm sure you... I have stopped participating with people like that for that very reason. If you cannot admit your own fault in your life, that the behavior that you bring to the table is the thing that affects and creates... The situation around you, if it's always other people, then you have a major problem.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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You have to read the book, The Sociopath Next Door. Yeah. Because I think the numbers are, it's one in four people are sociopaths. And those people have no conscience. Everything is a power game to them. All they want to do is beat you and they will beat you In terms of money, in terms of sex, in terms of status. That's all they care about. And they don't have empathy.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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So you're constantly left going, I would never do this. But it's like, yeah, that's right. Because this person is nothing like you.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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You should look for it in everyone. You should because then you know when you're being mind fucked, you'll go, oh my God, that's, oh, now I realize why I'm so, like you need to know that information. Yeah, okay. You need to be able to spot a sociopath. I think that should be taught in high schools.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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That's what I'm saying. Okay. That's what I mean.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
studying up on him Vince is not a sociopath I know he's not oh you just don't want him to see you yeah paying attention to it yeah or like being like why are you reading that say I'm doing it for you baby yeah this is for this is for the marriage should I say I'm a sociopath I think our cats are sociopaths one in four. I mean, if we had one more person in this room, it would be one of us.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I was just going to say go kill him, but that's not okay. The people who kill are not influenceable by these podcasts. They're not going to be like with their murder kit under the passenger seat and then be like, you know what, girls? You show me the way.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Well, also because sometimes people just piss you off. So it's like calling someone a sociopath is very satisfying. Yeah. Like, well, this makes sense. But I do know people who after being friends with them for a while and then being like, I cannot be friends with you anymore. You are like you're basically a vampire. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Then when you when you pull away and then you read this book, you go, holy shit. Yeah. I mean, there's like a step by step thing where it's like, is this a person who would never cop to anything? Is this a person who only ever wanted to take more for themselves? It's like it's a very clear kind of defining thing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yes. Well, part of it, I do the exact same thing. And for me, part of it is an ego problem because I think the world revolves around me 100%. So I like the idea of people of like, oh my God, this person is doing this and that. Like it adds to my egomania of like, everybody's thinking of me all the time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
it's better to let it go. Like the healthier thing is to be like, maybe I had 50% of that. Maybe I had 0% of that. Like, but look at it, learn from it, move on and let it go. But to sit around and be like, Oh, I was so bad that time. It's like, yeah, you're just thinking of yourself and not thinking of other people.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I'm a sociopath. Are you? I'm in video right now. One in three, one in three, including Elvis. It's me. But what if it's me? No, it's not me. Well, do you have a conscience?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
No, I'm totally... Guilt. I mean, we got that covered. Yeah. Steven. Guilty.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Could you answer some questions for me as I, let me just pull this book out of my back pocket.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
See, I remember that story from psychology class that she got stabbed like 35 times. She got stabbed a lot more once he came back. Oh, okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
So terrible. That's so nightmarish. There's a crime to remember about Kitty Genovese.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And it's such a classic case. I feel like even if you've never been interested in true crime, you've heard the Kitty Genovese story. It's like prerequisite in college and stuff. But I guess it's an interesting thing to be like, yeah, you know, this thing that you've heard about your whole life. It's not the way you heard it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I haven't seen this movie, but I also recommend the Crime to Remember episode about her, Kitty Genovese, because they put out some other alternate theories that are very interesting.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Lisa's on that Facebook page. NPR for sure. Oh, I saw, can I recommend a Netflix series that I watched all of in one day? Always, always, always. Oh, Olive. This is from our new section, Olives. Olives time. Olives always. All of you. It's called Marcella or Marcella. They pronounce it because they're British. So they'll do a fancy pronunciation that baffles me as I've already proven.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah. They don't they didn't seem convinced he did it. But I did none of that information that he'd already killed two other women was in there. They focused a lot on how racist the NYPD was back then. And so that they basically would grab up black people, black men. Yeah. And just be like, were you in the neighborhood? It's you. It sounds like way different than it is today. Oh, so, so different.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Um, I would just like to say because I saw a documentary. Is yours done? Sure. Yeah, no, totally. Oh, okay. No, it totally is. Well, I just saw this. I'm going to bring yours to an end so I can recommend my documentary that isn't true crime. But well, it is because it's crime. Yeah. It's called Tickled.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And it is unbelievably amazing because it starts out there about this online tickling competition, tickling league, professional tickling league, I think it's called.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yes. Except for it's not what you think. It's not some weird like, can you believe these people exist? It goes into the craziest, darkest, scariest fucking thing. And it's this one New Zealand reporter who went looking into it because he's basically a human interest reporter for the local news. He got in too deep. he immediately started getting threatened.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And so instead of being like, whoops, better close this up, he starts investigating. And it's amazing. And interestingly enough, and not to talk about them all the time, but our friends, The Dollop, who did a very, very popular episode about these tickling competitions, uh, Very early on, like this guy did this New Zealand reporter did the story.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
They Dave and Gareth got sent the story, I think, by people in Australia or New Zealand saying, you guys have to talk about this. It's crazy. And so then they did that episode of the dollop was super popular. And it's actually featured in the documentary. Shut up. Yes. They have audio clips of the dollop talking about this. He's made it. And it's the very beginning of the movie.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And then it goes into like... He's like... He basically is like, yeah, I thought this was this kooky, crazy thing. And then I started researching it. And it is...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
edge of your seat it was one of those things we saw at the sunset sundance whatever theater and there was only like 10 15 people in the theater and a bunch of us were all sitting in one row which was kind of funny like basically there was like nine people in one row and then like four people outside of our row yeah but by the end we were all talking to each other it was one of those like so upsetting and like oh my god what's happening what channel is it on i want to watch it
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Uh, no, it's a movie. It's a documentary movie that's in like art house theaters right now.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Everything is okay. Yeah. No, you're doing a lot of stuff. I liked when we were watching The Simpsons and we were on the same episode and then you were like, we've got to watch episode five together and live tweet it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I couldn't breathe. I get it though. Yeah. You get, I can tell when you're excited or like there's a lot going on because you're, it, it almost looks like you're slowly drowning and you're trying to tell me something before you go under. It's kind of what it's like.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
You have to think about breathing more. Yeah. Because that's what yawning is about. Yawning is about low oxygen levels. Yeah. And you have to like your body goes take this take as much oxygen as in as you can.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah. So a lot of great ideas, guys. A lot of great. Oh, there was someone that made my favorite piece of art that got made on the that got posted on the Facebook page last week is someone did a half.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
freehand drawing that was a picture of the forest that said um get a job make it buy your own shit stay out of the forest but but with these banners or did you see that yeah it's so beautifully done and it was someone who said their friend did it but they're not they don't want to be on the right
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It's with Anna Friel. It's super good. It's a female homicide detective who's all screwed up, as all the good ones are. They're always screwed up. I watched the whole season, which I think was eight episodes, maybe more, in a day. And it was so good. And there's a couple people on the Facebook page who have recommended it. What's it called? Marcella is how it's spelled. Did you watch it, Steven?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
She's like, I'm going to hold it for four more days and then drop the bomb. And be like, guess what?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It makes me happy that a lot of people say they feel like we're best friends. Totally. Not with each other.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Bye. Okay, we're back. Are there case updates on a story this old? Yes, actually.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
A journalist would have caught that, you know, the who, where, when, what, how, you know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
All right. Well, that was it. That was the boiled down version of this episode. So now we'll talk about what we could have entitled it instead of 20 Justice for All.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yes, this is an auditory situation that we were doing written jokes, like page jokes for. Lots of mistakes.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
We meant very well. We did. We still do. And we still do. And also, that's the thing. We'll say it again and again. We're just people doing a podcast. That's all. Yep. That's all. Yep. That's it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Gotta compete. Gotta get out there. Gotta do podcasts on video.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It's fun to be middle-aged on fucking all those websites.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I'm going to dig my 11 lines down a little deeper. I want to have way more stress and then see what that does to my old face.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I totally you should watch it. I've never heard of it. It's really good. And it's like, I mean, do you like do you like those kinds of procedurals like a Luther or a. What what country of origin?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It's tough. But also what we have to remember is no one gives a shit anymore.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
No one gives a single shit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Can't wait until I'm sitting across from Kim Kardashian. What a joy. Okay. Thanks, everybody, for listening back then. Now, were you there? Are you here now? Oh, my God. That's so nice of you. Thank you. You must be so patient. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Was she dead?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yes.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It's I just don't know. Maybe you need yours more character driven. Like Happy Valley is almost more about her family. Yeah. Her trying to deal with just her shit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Oh, it's the best.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
No, no, no. That's just my recommendation. There was like one lone person was like, did anybody watch this? It's so good. So I found that on the Facebook page. I was like, I did. I loved it. There's maybe there were two people actually, sorry. But I just wanted to tell more people if people liked, British procedurals like a Luther or a... I don't know. Dexter? Was that good? I did not like Dexter.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Never saw it. It was super cheesy. It's a different type of procedural because it was very heavy-handed. It was also narrated, which I almost always hate. Oh, interesting. Was it like CSIE? It was, actually. But yes, it was CSIE. But Michael C. Hall is awesome. He's from Six Feet Under. Oh, yeah, of course. He's great. And it's like the storylines are interesting because it's serial killer stuff.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
But there was just a lot of like. I don't know, and it didn't do it the way I like it. I went to his house on Fourth of July once. Really? Yeah, that's now this is a we'll call this this area is called Celebrity Center.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Good. Throw him under the bus. Or give, why don't you have your mail sent to his mailbox? Okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I have a feeling you have a very specific way you like to do a male situation. Well, I mean, yeah, probably things in general. Like, do you like to have it be a surprise? Remember last time I was afraid moths were going to come out? That's like a thing. I like a surprise, but probably because I knew you knew everything about it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And they never snow. What if we open it and then we have to fake our response? Because we're not that stoked on it? Or like, you know, I used to work at Bio Bottoms, which is a children's natural fiber clothing company in my hometown. And the returns department... Bio Bottoms? It was called Bio Bottoms. They made a shit ton of money. I bet.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
But the returns department used to come and tell us weird shit that they got.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I mean, as much as it would be fun to do that live. No, let's do it live. If we got, we should get like corners, like goggles, the full suit, gloves. Hazmat.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Hello. Hello. And welcome. To Rewind with Karen and Georgia. This, and you may know this already, but this is our Wednesday episode where we travel back in time to recap old episodes of this podcast. Then we return to the present. It is a very painful process.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Here I go again with my fucking... Plans and schemes.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
You're the architect of this high-rise building that we're living in. No. We do this together.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I actually get great joy from watching you take your Invisalign out of your mouth. Because it looks like it's three times bigger than your mouth as you take it out. So it's an event.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And I love my therapist. I've been with her for like 12 years. Yeah, really? Wow. Yeah. And that's, it was one day, I think I tried one other person because I told my friend who was a therapist, so I couldn't go to her. So she's like, just tell me what you want. I'll recommend. And I said, I need to talk to somebody that looks like Olympia Dukakis. Well, that was a mistake.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
You can't do it that way. No. You can't cast it in your mind and pretend you're going to go act out scenes.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Right. I don't want to go to her. I don't want to go into a cloud of pot to talk about my problem.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I don't want someone who keeps interrupting my good stories. There are stories of Woodstock and the doors. Yeah. No, that psychology today. Yeah. Yeah. Is this shit that website?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
So in case you're too scared to ask. Don't be scared. Everyone's in therapy. And everyone needs to be in therapy.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah, it's good.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It's all about understanding yourself. Yeah, sure.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Okay, we're back. Georgia, would you like to apologize to British Procedurals right now? Or Olivia Colman personally?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
And especially these days, like, who, you know, I don't know. Trust no man. Trust no sources.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Yeah. And we also talked about listening to our own show. First of all, we called them old episodes and we're on episode 28. So we're just like, hey, did you like that idea of listening to what we were doing to get a sense of like what are we doing?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Oh, no. Like, when I walk by and there's, like, an engineer trying to edit what we just did, I, like, run away when I can hear my voice. It's for others. It's not for me. It's kind of like when we stopped looking at our own Facebook page, where it's just like, oh, this isn't, we're not supposed to be on this end of the process. We did the other part. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
I love that one. So join us as we take you back to August 4th, 2016, because now we can all be day one listeners.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Please, please move on with your life. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Mary Bell?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Is that last week? I don't know. I honestly don't know. What's that?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Fuck.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Because someone posted a link that has all these Reddit links on it. There is a post with a bunch of Reddit links that I was looking through today and loved it. It was so great.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Sorry. Oh, hey, this is, hello? Who's this? Show business?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Can I take this? Can I talk about some products with this person?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
So you're telling me, Cecil Small, that you not only saw the shooter of President Kennedy, a different person, but then you also met Lee Harvey Oswald.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
I think when people burgle, this is just me talking off the top of my head. Yeah, I want to know your opinion. Okay. First of all, I want to officially change my old opinion, too. I don't know why I said 1969 and below when racism is such a humongous problem in this country. It came. I don't know. But I'll go ahead to, again, freely give my opinion.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
When people burglarize a house, they're looking for valuables and they know where people hide valuables. Good burglars want to get in and get out. They don't want to wreck people's houses. They don't go through every single drawer because they know that people hide. I mean, there have been studies about it where it's like people hide their stuff in a sock drawer.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
People hide their stuff in a freezer. People hide their safes behind pictures. So now everyone knows where you hide your stuff. That's right. They come to your house. My safe is behind my picture. Um, so cutting open a couch or, you know, there's like when, when things are overly ruined, I think is when cops are like.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Right. And also you're just taking extra time as the burglar. That could be time where the cops could be on their way.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
So there's no need to put the ottoman on the couch.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
That's one I'd be willing to do.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
That one I would love to do because who, I mean, who really knows? But it would be to understand how detectives and investigators have a sense of things would be fascinating to me.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
don't and don't just sneak them out of the uh precinct evidence locker where the cocaine is sneak them out mail them to george's secret p.o i mean add a little coke in there if you want it's not a big deal i won't be mad people do it all the time i'm kidding don't do coke we we all think it's bad yeah so okay i'm speaking for steven
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Yes, and they're good. They're good, right? I'm really, yeah. There's something, well, to me, when you sent me that picture, there's something very visceral about the original logo as a shirt. Like, it makes me feel official.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
If it's numbers, I'm definitely lying.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
I know. I just read one today that was like a hundred thousand in the seventies. Ah, shit. Now I don't remember what it was. I believed you.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
That I knew that was that I knew.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
I appreciate that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Do you think the neighbor was in on it, that it was Mr. Lucky at the assassination?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Yeah. I'll say this. What's suspicious to me, that just dawned on me, why would that woman call her son-in-law instead of the cops when there are three men in her house?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Because she was only 19, you said.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Well, that just happened to me. Shut up. Walking into your apartment and Stephen has our shirt on. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
What did I, you just, I could, I could have, I think I got the name wrong. Was it Hinkley? I'm thinking of John Hinkley. I never even noticed.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Mark David Chapman is the one that killed John Lennon.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
And then you just threw Jodi Arias in there for fun.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
That's weird.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Well, it's always when there's no resolution. I mean, it makes me want to ask 95 questions.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
You know what I was thinking about is that other one that you had that was from Japan or whatever.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Where they killed the family. Totally. I think about that one all the time. Who the fuck was it? It's enough information that it should have been able to be solved. That drives me crazy. Well, the frustrating thing, too, is that it's not like when you're on this side of it and you don't know, you have it in your head that it's going to be some fascinating reveal.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Is it obnoxious to wear your own podcast sweatshirt?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
And it's always like, oh, that guy. That's why, yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Yeah, that's right. Okay, we're back. I had a lot of questions back then. Do you have any answers now?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
He's not involved. He's truly not involved, really not his style.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Actually is a part of our origin story.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
He was there when we first met and first started talking about fucked up shit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Should we also get director's chairs?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Of course not. Yeah. It's true. We were just sitting there, like, laying on a couch in your apartment, thinking, like, we were just postulating. Totally. Exactly. Yes. Just like, what if, what if? And that kind of sensitivity, it just took us, that's a perspective I just wasn't considering at all.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Right. And it goes hand in hand with like, we're not the kind of people that would assume a bunch of people would want to listen to us do what we're doing. Right. And that was like, that's just our, you know, that's our learning curve that makes this show a little painful and a little like... We don't want to look back and be like, oh, that means we're bad people.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Because there is a real naivete, if not straight up ignorance. Right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
We were the National Enquirer generation, where that little murdered girl's face was on that newspaper in the grocery store. When you were 15 years old, you were staring at her every single day. Yeah, you're desensitized to it. Completely.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
I know. I wonder if there's like Dixie Mafia, there's a file cabinet somewhere. Oh, you gotta hope. It's just like some weird reveal where...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Yeah, for real. Any kind of Dixie Mafia, anything that you might know. For a second, I thought you were asking me if my grandpa was, right? I'm like, my grandpa was from Galway, Ireland.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Classic merch that I wear around the office every day.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
You can get so much weird shit. Yeah. You know, Dave, Anthony from The Dollop says that the thing they sell the most are posters.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
All right, well, you want to hear mine? Absolutely. Well, mine is pretty interesting. I remembered that I read this book called, let me see. The Bible? God, I love it, and I'm here to tell you about it, too. It's called Alone Orphaned on the Sea, which is what I wanted to call my book, but forget it. Oh, sorry, Orphaned on the Ocean. I can call mine Orphaned on the Sea now.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
So I got really into, for a little while, before I ever saw the show, I survived, which I cannot get on the lifetime on my Apple TV. I can't get it on my laptop. Oh, my gosh. It will not let me access Apple. Even for money, it won't let me watch old episodes of I Survived. And I think that's wrong. And someone needs to do something about it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Um, but I love all your movies anyhow. So I read that I was super in, I got into these stories of survival for a little while in the, I would say mid nineties. Maybe I was having a hard time myself. I can't remember. Um, And I remember reading this book and being fascinated by it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
And the thing that drew me to the book initially is on the cover of the book, there's a picture and it's just the open ocean and then a tiny, in the middle, a tiny white raft and a little girl sitting in it. No. Is it a photograph? It's a photograph of the person I'm about to tell you about and how she was found. Losing my mind. Losing my mind. Can I look at the photo?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
alone orphaned on the ocean all right so this is the story of terry joe depereau uh and she was from green bay wisconsin uh when this happened to her she was 11 years old and um her father arthur was an optometrist from uh also from green bay obviously she wasn't from a different area um Um, and Arthur had always dreamed of taking a year off and sailing around like the Bahamas.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Um, it basically sailing the world with his family. He had been in world war two and he had been in like the tropics. And so he thought that would be amazing. Especially it was coming up on winter in, um, green Bay and yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
And so he, um, He'd always wanted to basically live on a boat for like a year. And so his idea was he's going to take the family down to the Bahamas. They're going to rent a sailboat and try it out for a week, see if the kids actually like it or if he's just full of beans, and then see where their adventure will take them. Okay, so they fly down to Florida, and they charter –
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
A two-masted sailboat called the Bluebell. And they hire Captain Julian Harvey, who is a former Air Force fighter pilot and an experienced sailor. And they have him captain the ship. Doesn't that seem weird to be like, my whole family and some guy. Yeah. Well, the guy brought his wife, Mary. Okay. Um, so I think they were kind of acting as like the, uh, casual crew. It was a swinger situation.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
It was super key party. Okay. So, because this was also in, uh, oh, this was 1961. Okay. Um, so they sailed out of Florida, um, on November 8th, 1961, and they sailed east toward the island of Bimini.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Um, Femini, femini, boo. And then they went on to Sandy Point on the great Abaco Island. And the family spent a week there snorkeling and collecting shells on pink and white beaches. They just had a gorgeous vacation.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
And they had such a good time that Dr. Dupereau told the village commissioner, because they had to fill out paperwork to go back to America, that he planned to return before Christmas. So they were super into the sailboating family dream. Cool. So then they left and they set sail for home. And that night around 9 p.m., Terry Jo headed downstairs to her sleeping quarters in the back of the boat.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Her brother and little sister had stayed upstairs in the cockpit with the parents. And around 11, she woke up because she heard her brother yelling, Daddy, help. Woo! And then she heard stomping sounds, and then it went quiet. And she laid in her bunk, shaking and confused and not sure what was going on. And she's 11? She's 11 years old. Oh my gosh, okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
So finally, she sneaks up to the main cabin, and she sees her mother and brother lying in a big pool of blood. Holy shit. so she said the second she saw them, she knew she, they were dead. So she went past them and snuck up, uh, to the cockpit hatch and she stuck her head out and she saw more blood on the deck and she saw a knife on the ground.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Mine felt like the opposite of high school because I went to a tiny high school and then I tried to go to Sac State, which was like going to... Oh my gosh. Huge.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
So she crawls out of the hatch cause she's trying to find her dad and And Captain Harvey runs at her and growls, get back down there and pushes her down the stairs. Holy shit. So she closes her eyes, runs past her brother and mom and goes back to her bunk and gets into her, goes back to her cabin and gets back in the bunk. And she lays there. She doesn't know what to do.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
She's obviously probably in shock, freaking out. Then she hears sloshing. And she looks down. And the floor of her sleeping quarters is covered in oily water. And she realizes the ship is sinking. Oh, my God. So she's afraid to move. But she looks up. And then suddenly the captain's standing in the doorway staring at her. And he's carrying her brother's rifle.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
And he stares at her for a little bit. Then he just turns and walks away. So she lays in bed, frozen stiff, doesn't know what to do. But pretty soon the water's up to her mattress. So she knew she had to get out of there. So she wades through waist-deep water out of her cabin, out of her quarters, out through the main cabin.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
a whole other city as a school.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
She goes back up on deck and she looks over the side and she sees that the life raft is already in the water. And Captain Harvey walks up to her and hands her the rope.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
that connects connecting the life raft and says hold on to this i'll be back in a second and she's in such shock and fear she drops the rope and so as he's walking away he looks and sees that the rope is going and the dinghy's starting to float away so he dives in after it and uh he dives in after it and she watched him swim after the boat and disappear into the night Oh, my God. Oh, my God.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
I have so many questions. Go on. I stole that last line directly from the Reader's Digest article that I was reading about this story. I read several articles about it, but Reader's Digest was the main one. And I just want to thank them for being an American classic. I miss that. I used to read this when I was a kid. That's all I read.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
I didn't want to say it. It's all about Reader's Digest. I'm going to cover to cover. So, okay. So it's an 11-year-old girl standing on a sinking boat. Fuck. Who's witnessed her family murdered, part of her family murdered. What does she do? Does she cry? Does she cower? No. She remembers that there is a small cork life raft in the cockpit. So she runs and grabs it. And as she does, as she...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
grabs a hold of it and they they don't describe this that much but um she basically runs forward to the front of the boat grabs the life raft and by the time she gets there the boat is sinking under her feet so she has just enough time to jump onto it as the boat goes under the water so she basically went down with this ship and then jumped onto this little cork life raft holy shit so
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Now she's alone at sea in a tiny raft. It's three feet long. I mean, you saw it in that picture. She doesn't fit into it. She couldn't lay down in it. It's half her. It's probably like can hold her legs. So she has a blouse and pants on. She's freezing cold. It's pitch black. There's no moon out. She can't see, so she keeps getting hit with huge waves. I know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
And the salt water is getting in her eyes and stinging her eyes. She can't open her eyes and she's afraid that Captain Harvey is nearby. Oh my God. So that's, then it starts raining. So her first night out in the water, bad news. Okay. Anytime you're lost, you're out at sea. I wouldn't be looking for good news.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
like this terrible like old school that was sad did it have those desks where the chair and the desk are connected I can't there's something so depressing about those desks because you can't move in or out and your butt hurts and it's just and it's like you're it's like a little clamp on you yeah it's a school clamp it's a little prison cell so look at us now yeah look at us free sticking our legs wherever we want sideways anywhere
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Oh, maybe. You mean hydration-wise? Yeah. For a second, I thought you meant, I wonder if she was in a freshwater. Was she in a fish tank? Did she go to Lake Havasu? Okay. So she wakes up the next morning. The sun comes out. She's not cold anymore. Now, of course, she's boiling hot. Oh, I've seen Joe versus Volcano.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
You know what it's like to be on a raft. But his raft was nice. It was pretty sweet. It was huge. And he had that great suitcase. Yeah. Her raft was slowly disintegrating. No. Yes. Sweet baby angel. So she has to hang her legs over the side to float like the plastic rubbery part that has the air in it. is the part that's not disintegrating.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
So she has to sit on the edge and then hang her legs over the side. Then parrotfish come and start biting her legs.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
I don't know. They start biting her legs. I bet they're the ones that you see in tropical fish tanks. Yeah. They think they're all big, but they're fancy colors in their teeth. Fucking shark food. So that's her first day at Sucks. The next day... That's her first day.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
The next day she wakes up, her tongue is swelling in her mouth because of all the salt that she's taking in and no hydration. And then she sees a plane and she's waving. She takes her shirt off and waves and waves and waves this white shirt over her head. It dips down toward her a little bit and then flies away. And never comes back.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Yeah. That was how she was going to get saved. Nope. So that afternoon, she spots some shapes swimming in the water about 30 yards away. And she's scared to death because she thinks they're sharks. Send her foe. When they come closer, it's a pod of porpoises that swim with her.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
For hours and hours. Never. No. Now we all cry. At the beauty of nature. Are you, this is 100% for sure. Yes, this is from her, this is her book, Alone, Orphan of the Ocean.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Have you ever seen those specials where they have children that have like brain damage or some kind of disease get into water with a dolphin? They do studies and their brain function improves when they're around dolphins. Aww. Dolphins have like weird fucking children ESP and they know when something's in the water and needs their help.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Please, with all your tuna. All right. Okay, so that night, the sea is totally still. Now, I'm going to admit to a half lie in this because I remember this from the book, but I read this book almost 20 years ago. Okay. So who knows what bullshit I've layered on top of this, but I'm pretty sure I remember this. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
That this one night was still, so she could see the stars like down to the horizon.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
And there was bioluminescent algae in the water. So it was all like she basically said she wasn't that scared until the very end because these cool things kept happening. And that was one of them that she saw like that the whole ocean was glowing green. And then she could see every single star. This reminds me of James and the Giant Peach.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Except for the copy I had because it was from like 1979 because it was when I was a child. There was an illustration of James at the beginning that is the saddest picture of any child ever. I tweeted it one time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
It's so sad.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Because that was my favorite book. Yes, because Rod Dahl liked to plant those pretty early and often. He did. Just be prepared to be an orphan just in case. Which I appreciate to a degree. He should have said, be prepared to be an orphan of the sea. Yeah. Because that could also happen. Tie it in. Go ahead. So I had to bring it back.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
That night when she fell asleep, she dreamed she saw her father peacefully drinking a glass of red wine and telling her, come on, we're leaving. So when she woke up on the third day, she was really sore. Her skin was burnt through her clothes. All her joints ached. She had been balancing on the edge of that raft because almost all the bottom was now gone. And she started hallucinating.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
In our director's chairs. Quit school, everybody. That's the one message we have for the children this week. Please quit school. Did you know Burke Ramsey is going to be on Dr. Phil in September? I know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
She would see tiny islands with one palm tree on them and then start. Paddling, paddling, paddling. And then when she'd get to them, they would disappear. Oh, my God. Sounds like a far side comic. I know. On the fourth day, she didn't wake up in the morning. She was losing consciousness. She was close to death. And when she finally did wake up, she woke up because she felt a shadow over her.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
And when she opened her eyes, she said she saw a huge whale hanging in the air above her. Whoa. But what it actually was, was a Greek freighter that miraculously had, someone had spotted her on this Greek freighter. And that's the person, one of the people, one of the sailors on this ship took that picture that I showed you. Holy shit. The second they saw her.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
So that was her still lost at sea, basically. Oh, and she didn't even know yet. So she, for her, the experience for her was a whale was hanging over her and then she was being lifted in the air. Oh. And then she was in big, strong arms. And then she was asleep. And the next thing she knew, she woke up and she was at the hospital in Florida. Big, strong arms. Big, strong arms. And a whale.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
And Greek arms. So they'd have that real good hair. Yeah. Real good wrist. Shiny.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
All right. So she got helicoptered to the hospital in Miami. She was treated for dehydration and severe sunburn. In a week, she recovered with no serious injuries.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
But... Not so for Captain Julian Harvey. Oh, hell no. I was going to call him doctor. So Captain Harvey was rescued the next day by a lookout on an oil tanker that was headed for Puerto Rico. And when they found him, he had the dead body of Terry Jo's seven-year-old sister Renee in the life raft. What? Why? He told the Coast Guard that he had found her in the water and tried to revive her.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
And, um, so basically, but she, the, the autopsy showed that she, she drowned. Um, so, uh, he, the story he told the coast guard was that the blue bell was damaged in a squall in the middle of the night. Yeah. And his wife and the Duperos were injured when the masts and rigging collapsed. He said gas lines in the engine room ruptured and the ship caught fire as it slowly sank.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
He said he'd managed to launch the dinghy and raft and dive overboard, but the tangled rigging had trapped everyone else on board. The police were totally suspicious, but there was nothing to prove otherwise. And then three days later, Terry Joe shows up, survived. Boom. And when Harvey finds out that she survived, he killed himself in his hotel room. Holy shit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
So turns out they do some investigating and, And Harvey had serious financial problems, and he had just taken out a life insurance policy on his wife, Mary. Those fucking life insurance policies. There needs to be more steps before you can just take out a life insurance policy on your wife.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Or husband.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
I love that the day it was announced, I think, I must have had six or seven people tweet at me and the My Favorite Murder Twitter. We had like 25 people.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
The police theorized that he had killed his wife for the insurance money, but was caught in the act by Arthur Devereaux, prompting him, prompting Harvey to murder him and the rest of his family. It was found later found that Mary had been Harvey's sixth wife. What? And not the first to die while married to him.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
He had miraculously survived a car accident that had claimed another wife of his and her mother. Both his yacht, Torbatross, which is a terrible fucking name, and his powerboat, Valiant, had both sunk under suspicious circumstances. They had all yielded large insurance settlements. Turns out Captain Harvey was kind of a serial killer.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Terry Jo was raised in Wisconsin by her aunt. She never talked about the ordeal. Her family told everyone not to bring it up in front of her. So she lived with this for years and years and years.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
it is not mentally healthy. It's the worst thing you could do.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
You have to talk about it. Talk about it to someone who is trained professionally. Someone cool and who's trained. You have to talk about things like, I mean, come on. I think people, I think these days people know that, but this was the sixties. It was Wisconsin. Press it way down deep. This is, I mean, that's, you know, that's what a lot of families do.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
My family is very much like, eh, don't bring it up. Yeah. We don't want to bother anybody. Right. Um, So she finally went to therapy as an adult. And 50 years later, she wrote a book with a survival psychologist named Richard Logan called Alone Orphaned on the Ocean.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
And she actually took sodium amytol, which I believe is. Oh, true. So that she could remember everything. So she went all the way back. So fucking cool. Yeah. Holy shit. That's our girl, Terry Jo Depereaux. I want to read that. And she has an I Survived. Of course she does. Really? Yeah. I want to see that. But I didn't pick this one because I saw it on I Survived.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Because I Survived, for me, doesn't tell you enough. They take all the good ones. They really, I mean, they do.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
That's a good one, right? Very good one. 11 years old. I think you won. Is this a game? I think you won. It can't be a game. Please. Well, also, if it's a game, when you have a big Captain Harvey is a serial killer reveal, I mean.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Yes, they would have to be because there was no defense. There's no defense. There's no fighting, but their hands are free. Yeah, but yeah. Yes. That doesn't make sense. No.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
I'm not trying to one-up you. No, no, no.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
But also you said the wife was strangled, but the other two had rope burns around their neck, like they were hung?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Right, right. This might be a good time to say, considering the fact that that guy's a lawyer, that everything that we accuse him of is alleged. Alleged, hearsay. And not proven. Speculation. Gossip.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Podcasting.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Y'all ladies think you're smart? You think you're funny and smart? Guess what? Is that how he sounds? He's from North Carolina, right? That's true. I don't know where that accent comes from. No, I buy it. Well, that's some fucked up shit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Facebook page. Fucking hang out with us. Hang out. Oh, but the one thing I will say is now we're getting lots of recommendations. If it's on, let's stop pretending Netflix has a bunch of choices. Netflix has like, let's say, 20 British shows. Yeah. We've seen them all. If it's on Netflix or HBO. The challenge to you is to find a British procedural I haven't seen. Good luck.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
And the person who suggested DCI Banks, I laugh in your face. Just kidding. I don't even think that's what they suggested. But I mean, I've honestly seen them all. Someone said I've seen them all, including Midsommar Mysteries, which really is like total grandma TV. I've tried to watch that one too. But it's very grandma-y. You love that shit, man. I do. Sorry, I had to tag that on.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Well, just give me something new.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
That's all. For sure.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
It'd be amazing. I did see one picture in one of the articles that got sent and they're walking in an orchard. The walk and talk. Probably a bad sign. Yeah. Because that means they're two besties.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
I mean. I mean, well, I think this story is so, it's extraordinary and there's nothing better, I think, than a survival story unless it's a survival story of a little girl. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
It's a miracle. And the beginning, it's not just like, oh, she was on a cruise ship and the cruise ship went down. Yeah. What she experienced before she then became stranded at sea was so horrifying and like... Traumatic.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
I do have a few, but... Terry Jo has a different last name. Her three children and her grandchildren live near her. She spent 14 years as a water management specialist in the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources. And she says, quote, I went on to protect the water that had protected me as a little girl. Water is life, and it is soothing for me to be on the beach.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
I find I can think clearly, relax, and feel closer to my lost family. Wow.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
She seems like the kind of person that having gone through a thing that a lot of us would be like, I don't know if I could actually get through that, especially at that age. She didn't just get through it, especially in that book. If you haven't read her book, you absolutely should. But it's like the philosophical part of her is just like, well, here's what we're all going to learn from this.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Oh, yeah?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
It's taken from the real picture that was taken from the deck of the freighter of her rescuers. So, like, it's beautiful art, but then it's also, like, the art is based on a true story. It's just, like, the coolest, coolest. And we're going to close this preorder at midnight on January 21st. So don't wait. Go get it. If you like that art, you can finally get it again. For the first time in years.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Yay. So this episode, as we were talking about, originally titled, I 28 His Liver with Some Fava Beans in a Nice County. So if we were going to rename it today, what are some ideas of what we should pick?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
I mean, it just looked too peaceful and chummy to me.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
That's right. Although I don't have a safe. And then I also said, now we all cry after telling you about how the dolphins swam with her. The dolphins swam with her and stayed with her.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Yeah, that's right. And those asshole sharks. Oh, my God. I think now we all cry. Now we all cry. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good one. All right. Thanks for looking back at the past with us. And we like doing it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Yeah. I don't, who knows? But here's what I will say, and I'm not going to name any names. I've got an inside source. What? I'm going to find out from my inside source if it's already been taped, if it's a taping live in a studio, like if the clips we've already seen are just a pre-tape that they're letting out footage of or whatever. Because what if we went to the live taping of that?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Wait, what? Would you want to do that? I'm going to find out from my inside source.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Because here's the thing. I do trust in Dr. Phil. Um, is, I just got the picture in my head. Did you ever see the Dr. Phil that was on the Muppet Sesame Street where they did a Dr. Phil and the Muppet looked exactly like him?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
That just flashed in my head and I kind of went away for a second. Sorry. Um, I do trust that Dr. Phil doesn't give a fuck. So he will like confront like a lunatic. Yeah. Like it's not like I'm going back on what I just said about the chummy. Right. Yes. Because now that I think about it, Dr. Phil just all be like. Why do you still live with your boyfriend who's a pedophile? You know what I mean?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
He doesn't care. Wait, Burke Ramsey lives with a boyfriend who's a pedophile?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
If we somehow get tickets to be in the studio audience, I will lose. Should we wear matching outfits?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
That's like an intense drag queen move is to like dress up as JonBenet Ramsey. Totally. Then here's part two, which a lot of people know because a lot of people also tweeted us this information. Okay. Is that Ingmar Guadagnic, who is the guy that was accused of murdering Chandra Levy.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
is going to get released from prison after six years because the prosecutors are dropping all charges because based on recent unforeseen developments that were investigated over the past week. What?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
That's insane. Because whatever they found, whatever this investigation is, the idea that it got to the point where it gets him out of jail entirely has to be something incredibly definitive.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
He did. Now, look, I'm not celebrating his release because he did attack women in that park. That's the reason he was arrested. But he attacked women with the intent, I believe, to rape them if he if not raping them. But there, I think, so basically he was the perfect person to arrest for her murder.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
fuck up the world even more i mean he's i know you can't hold someone for something they weren't charged for but i hate it and i want to know what the i want to know what the evidence is so i can know if i agree or not but they're not telling us you're right it's not exciting he's getting out of jail because obviously he can't handle himself around women parks or screwdrivers sexual predator yeah he's no good and i'm sure jail helped him with that right
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
As it tends to do. But what I, I'm just stoked that they found something. They were still looking. Yeah. And they found something so definitive. That means we're going to find out about it within the next month.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
I can't remember. People talk to me about these cases that we talk about on here and I have almost no memory of talking about them. I know. I have to re-listen to episodes.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
It was maybe your first. No, not your first because your first was Martha Moxley, right?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Oh, okay. It was an early one that was a little more obscure. And right, I saw it and I went, that's so good. And I'm like, the reason you think that is because George R.R. Martin did it. What if you just did it and then did it better? And then said, up your game, girl. Yeah. That's right. Get it together. It's a contest within a podcast.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
What is... Oh, God. I'm such a dick. No, I think it's very brave of you to admit this. I re-listen to episodes a lot. Because it's a really... It's fun to do... It's, I don't know. It's fun to do. It is. It is. And it's like, oh shit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Oh, that was good. That was actually good. Sometimes we leave this apartment and I'm like, we shouldn't, we shouldn't do this anymore. Wait, what? Wait, sorry, what? Please tell me that's not true. Any more housekeeping? That is it for me.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
It's timeless. I haven't because there's so many other like true crime documentaries out right now. I feel like my list has gotten insanely long.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. This is our new Wednesday episode where we recap our old shows with new commentary, updates, and insights. You are welcome.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
I feel bad about all of it. Like, this is a story that is so – I was talking to somebody this morning where I was just like, the idea that there are so many risky people in this child's life. Yeah. And the fact that there are so many potential people.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Is so horrible.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Just so horrible. And they, you know, like child pageants, we don't even have to get into it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Yeah. And also it's just very strange. It's like a cold case. It feels like there should be a way to get in there and do something about how this cold case that just everybody wants answers to.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Now I have to move this one up to the top of my list, you're saying?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Looking back on this rewind, it's a really good, like, I think people over the years of being a true crime fan and a listener of it, I really, the thing that stands out the most to me is media literacy and how it used to just be we kind of accepted whole cloth anything we were shown of like, well, then that's what it is. Well, then that's what it is.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 28: I 28 His Liver With Some Fava Beans and A Nice Chianti
Yeah, it's on a major network. Yeah. And as... People get smarter, which I do believe they are. And it's like all the Internet, you know, the things that advance our kind of awareness and literacy. It's just like to believe that we know anything simply because one group of people put something together and tried to convince us for ratings. Yeah. It is a thing that I'm glad is changing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Okay. Okay. His hands on his hips. Okay. Okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Come on. Cross podcast rivalries. Come on.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Let's fuck him. Yeah, exactly. Well, here's how they will hear of you. Do you know that you talked about that you didn't make it on your high school's Wikipedia page? You are now on your high school's Wikipedia page.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
What I think is funny is that it's the Wikipedia page for your high school. It's not even like your Wikipedia page. It's like you were bummed about something that's real sub, sub, sub, you know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
I doubt it. I mean, no. I don't think a high school that has, like, literally 200 kids at it in a small town in Northern California has a Wikipedia page.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Yeah, we may have done, unless we broke the law somehow, which... Or, like, because we got a nice new football field or something. But I don't think so. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
One of the great casual photos. What's the real word I'm looking for? Ass shot. Just complete butt shot of me. Yep. Georgia wearing her hot pants.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
With me with kind of my weird bald spot of like my calic bald spot that's always been there.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
I'm very blessed. Very blessed. Thank you, Pat. That's all Pat Kilgareff's doing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
It would be amazing if you found out you were making so much money on wiki feet right now.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
All right. Well, let's get into George's story right now about the murder of Selena.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
That's a free one from Vince. That's a free one. Awesome. Cool. Hi, everybody. It's episode 32. What's up? I'm going to bring what's up back. Are you? I have already threatened to do that. What's up?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
She was huge. She was like Madonna times 20. Well, I'll tell you all about it. Oh, okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
I think it's super Southern in Texas, like down in the Gulf maybe. Right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Well, my cousin Cheryl lived in Corpus Christi when I was like in junior high, but why do I ever say anything?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. That's right. That means it's Wednesday, and that means we're recapping one of our old shows with all new commentary, updates, and insights.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Fuck, I hope we don't get- That's Selena and Fred Flintstone's dog. Dinosaur.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
She was so hacky. The town killed her. The city killed her. She got killed. Do you have housekeeping? I mean, I have things I just generally want to talk about. Well, I'll say mine that are internet specific. That are important. Yeah, mine are important.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Just like Roxette. Like what? The band rock set. What were they, German? Yeah, or Swedish or something. Oh, they had to learn English? Well, no, they just sang phonetically. They didn't know what they were saying. That's funny. That she had no clue what that song was. Wow. But it's so powerful. Mm-hmm.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Fuck.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Right, because you're harassing us.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
So, I mean, that's, it's the thing that they didn't know back then that people know nowadays, which is- Just don't engage. Right. Right. Yeah. 15 calls to anybody at any time is too many. Yeah. I don't care if like you have a flat tire and you're calling AAA.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
I was kind of that way about kids in the hall for a little while, but it was a dark period of my life. Were you? Yeah, it was just, I had flunked out of college and I was just weirdly obsessed. It was when they were running them on Comedy Central and I just, it was the only thing that made me happy. That laugh was the creepiest.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
I just realized, I mean, every, we all have the potential. Everybody likes a thing. Sure.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
But have you met them and told them that? See, my thing is that, and maybe it's just from working in TV. I really don't like celebrities. Like there's nothing more disappointing. And I think most people know it these days from reality TV and stuff. Celebrities are very disappointing in real life. Except for us.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And you'll never get to have it. He was also on Colbert. We actually watched it at work because enough people at my work like him that we were all like, let's watch. Is he cute? He is perfection. There's something like Disney-esque about the scale of the size of his eyes to the rest of his face.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
yeah no they're just I mean the most they'll be is slightly pleasant yeah for the most part you will you will have regretted trying to be like hey can I get a picture I'm a big fan or whatever you're not gonna get you in and it's some obscure thing and they don't care okay they don't care it's super weird it's like you know yeah it ruins it almost so yeah good luck everybody good luck in life with your fucking cute little fantasies
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
It's cute. Well, from what I remember in the movie, there's like a lot of ruffles and a lot of like, you know, shimmery velvety pants and stuff like that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
So she put her stalker, she made her stalker the CEO of the company.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Like he got a nose job. It's so perfectly shaped. And then in general, he just has the, he has the charisma, but he's very low key. Like he's smart enough to know not to overplay it. We're talking about Riz Ahmed. We're talking about Riz Ahmed.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
No, because isn't that part of it is like they explode inside you. And so when they come out, they just instead of a bullet hole size coming out, it like rips out.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Yeah, he was trying to, he was turning it a little bit on, but. Okay, well that. But also I saw him in the, the Unwilling Fundamentalist. What's that movie? He stars in a movie called. About an fundamentalist that doesn't want to be.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
That's so fucking cool. I know. I mean, terribly sad, but also... Because I remember that being in the movie where it's like... It's a tragedy anyway. Yeah. But this was someone who was... Poised on the verge of crossing over at a time before that was like before J-Lo, before any of those things were happening.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
So she's for Ricky Martin.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Before like any of that where it was kind of like the sexy, you know, Shakira.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Well, it's also fascinating that thing of like when you can, it's like when you were saying, you know, she's just this random person, but you do trace those things of like a person who embezzles, a person who like those kind of smaller crimes. That's how every story goes like this, where it's like they always have a background where they're trying to get anything they want at any price.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Who doesn't. The word isn't unwilling. No, sorry. It's part of the title. I'm his number one fan. But in that one, he had like a posh British accent.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
You're not allowed to steal money from other people. It's not your money. No, no, you don't get to have, you have to abide by certain rules in life and not screw other people over. And you don't want to be that person. Like I remember there was a cafe I was working at when I was, uh, a teen and I had it in my mind.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
I decided that I could take a $20 bill when I was closing at night so I could buy beer because they only paid me minimum wage. I had this whole rationalization. Totally. And I did it two times, was racked with guilt about it. And then the manager told me, did I tell you this story? The manager who was also my friend, like someone I hung out with, he goes, I don't, something's going on.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
We're always short. I think it might be the janitor. Oh, And then I was like, oh my, because that's what happens. You steal, somebody else could go down for it. Or like, I mean, the idea that he even would suspect this person who has nothing to do with it. Then I thought maybe he told me that because he knew it was me. Because it was always me. He did. Or it was me the two times.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And that was just a manipulation, which God bless you, Genius Moon.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
yeah but also like and then I like the next week I was talking to my dad on the phone and we were talking about something else and then he goes Karen there's some people out there that just can't keep their hands out of the till and then I almost threw up because I was like I almost wanted to go that's me my dad my sweet dad is talking about bad people and I'm the bad person you don't want to be the bad person no
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
You don't you don't need whatever the thing is you think you need. You don't. And get your own. Get your own. Get your own. You can.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Jesus. Keep it dirty. Hi, Vince. It's Karen. She said more gross stuff about Riz Ahmed this time. The thing I wanted to mention was a woman named Liam Moffat made us this amazing animated opening to our podcast theme song. You can see it on the Twitter page. You can see it on the Facebook page.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
No, but I mean, that was such a, that story of like a person so inside turning on her is such a nightmare story. It's like, it's not, this woman was not a serial killer. She was not like this, a hardened criminal in this way. Something horrible happened and it doesn't feel the same as the story of the usual stories that we tell of, you know. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
a man being out there trying to kill every woman that he sees.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
What's interesting, no. All right, Karen. But you've lived near it. I'm sure you've heard about it. Okay. Because it's the Zancou chicken murders. Ooh. And there's one on my way from work driving here. There's one here. I drove by one. Let's tell everyone.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
That's why it got real vague. Yeah. But... Yes. So my mouth is watering.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Zancou chicken is legendary in Los Angeles. If you've ever visited here, if you have friends that live here and you're not wealthy, you've probably eaten here because Zancou chicken is the best food that you can get for a decent price. Yeah. Um, and everybody knows it and everybody talks about it. It's up there with Roscoe's chicken and waffles.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Um, in that way of like, if you're here, you have to go try this. Definitely.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
It's so shit, but it's fun to stand in line drunk. So go there. Not going to lie. I have fucking chomped some chili dogs my day. But I've for 20 years, I've driven by pinks and watched people standing in line at three in the morning to get those hot dogs. So the first time I went there, I was like, this is going to be crazy. And it was just hot dogs. It's just hot dogs.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
yeah do things don't don't be closed off all the time maybe open some stuff up yeah so we have a new facebook fan page i will post it on there it is it's your like how do you how did you feel watching it with your music and your voice i couldn't breathe yeah and but also i it's that weird thing of like it's very strange when someone holds up something you did and goes now here's something i did to match it like it's just magical i love it gorgeous
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
But yeah, they're gross in a good way.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
yeah it's like greasy that's drunken food total totally okay so um there i got most of my information from this awesome article from los angeles magazine that was written by a guy named mark arax and it's from april 1st 2008 there's way more information than i could even entertain so if this interests you at all um look at that you can google it and it'll come up right away
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And I remember reading this probably five years ago because when this murder happened, everybody knew about it all of a sudden and everybody was crazy freaked out about it. It'd be like your local mom and pop cafe, like some terrible thing happening there.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
But the story behind it is kind of fascinating because it's like, so in Los Angeles, there's a city that's right behind the hill that says Hollywood on it, right behind that city. is both Burbank and Glendale. I mean, right behind that mountain is Burbank and Glendale. And Glendale has the single largest population of Armenian people that isn't Armenia in the world. Wow. It's huge.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And Armenians came there after they were there was the Turkish genocide, which there we see parades about and and flags about. And it's like it's weird because I never heard of anybody being Armenian until I moved to L.A. And now I feel like I know a ton of stuff about the Armenian culture simply because like I live in Burbank, I live close to Glendale. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
So anyway, this is, this, um, restaurant Zancou chicken was started originally in Beirut, Lebanon by a man named, uh, Vart. Oh, and the pronunciation on this is going to, if you're Armenian or if you're just not, uh, a Valley girl, it's going to offend you. Uh, Vartkis Iskandarian and his family started the first Zancou chicken in Beirut in 1962. Oh, wow. And, um,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Then they brought it over here in 1983. And it was... The chain actually was opened by Marderos, who is the son. And his parents were not interested in having a restaurant in America. They wanted to do dry cleaning, maybe go into the suit business. They looked into all these other businesses that were more kind of reliable than a restaurant. But...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
uh, Marderos believed that this, he looked around and he saw how few, um, Middle Eastern restaurants there were with so, with such huge populations of people that would appreciate the food. There was almost no food to feed them. That was like from their home. Totally. Um, so they opened their first restaurant, um, at the corner of sunset and Normandy, um, in East, uh, East LA. Hello. Hey. And, um,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
The LA Times said it's the best roast chicken in town at any price, which is kind of really saying something for the old she-she restaurants they have here. The Zagat Guide would say that Zanku was one of America's best meal deals.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
America, not just LA, which is cool. Jonathan Gold, who's a very famous food writer, he adores Zancou chicken, reviewed it and said the chicken was superb and nothing in heaven or on earth compares with the garlic paste. Oh my God, that garlic paste. The garlic paste is what everybody talks about. And it was invented by Marderos' grandmother. Shut up. Shut up.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And his mother makes it, made it all by hand. So it was a secret recipe. People still don't know what's in it. It's this white paste that you get with your chicken and your rice and your hummus and your pita. It's this little tub. It's like on the side. And it is.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And it's the cutest, like the style of it is so like, there's a little skeleton in every scene.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
tangy and pungent and garlicky but there's something else going on it's kind of like butter like you can't figure out all you want to do is eat it and put everything that you eat into it then for the next day you're belching garlic yes it's like filled with garlic you reek of it's it's quite an experience yes So that was kind of their secret weapon.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Aside from the fact that they figured out that other rotisserie chicken places, they realized you have to move the chicken itself and you have to play with the temperatures. You can't just keep it on one temperature all the time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
So they basically kind of went in there and tried to figure out how to give people who wanted to eat authentic Middle Eastern food, the best version of that food and not just go like here, here's whatever. Which is amazing. Apparently one time on Curb Your Enthusiasm, Larry David referred to it as chicken so good it could end the rift in the Middle East.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
So like everybody in LA knows about this food. It was also in a Beck song. That's right. That's right. There's a list on Wikipedia of all the popular culture things. There was somebody on Buffy the Vampire Slayer also liked to eat there. So they started as this hole in the wall chicken place. And after, I would think like over two years, they were making $2 million a year. Holy shit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And half of that was pure profit. Wow.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
So they were doing, obviously, great. So there were rumors. Oh, so in this article, this is one of my favorite things. In this article, this guy, Mark, the writer, starts out by talking about the Armenian culture and everything. And he says there's a saying that little old Armenian ladies say in Armenian, which is, let's sit crooked and talk straight, which totally made me think of us. Oh, my God.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
But it's creepy, very creepy. It's all perfectly done. So Leanne Moffat, thank you so much for doing that and thinking of us and participating in that very creative and cool way.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Isn't that the best? Let's sit crooked and talk straight. That's basically let's gossip.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
It's the best. So, of course, in the Armenian, I keep saying culture, but what I mean is community. They This family rose to prominence, obviously, because they all of a sudden started making tons of money and their food was crazy popular. But they also were huge philanthropists and gave so much back. So they were kind of famous within that community because they were a huge part of it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
So there was gossip. It was never confirmed that Pepsi was offering the company $30 million for the chain and the trademark. Holy shit. Um, and this was when it was kind of like peaking in, in its popularity. Um, and at that same time, even though, uh, Medeiros's, uh, parents did not want to expand. They just wanted to keep that one.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Um, he was like, we, he kept fighting to expand. He's like, we have to do it. We have to do it. So finally they agreed to split. And what they agreed to do was, um, I think it's Medeiros, uh,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
sorry if I'm, I know I'm pronouncing his name wrong, but they agreed that, that he would take the concept and he would build the chain and any stores that he opened, um, doing that, whether they failed or succeeded would be on him. Um, cause that's basically what the family was afraid. Don't, don't, let's not lose all our money. We got a good thing. Let's just keep this good thing going.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And in return, he would sign over his stake of the original in Hollywood and to his parents and his two sisters, but they weren't splitting. It wasn't, they weren't, they weren't, you know, it was, they were still completely together as a family. The garlic paste was still made by his mother at all the Zancou's, which I just can't get over is this woman who was probably at the time in her
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
I would say probably late 60s, early 70s. And they say in this article, they talk about how this mother, I think her name is Margaret, spelled with R-I-T. She worked, she got up at 7.30 every morning and went into work and worked till seven o'clock at night. And when she was done cooking for the restaurant, she would start to cook for the people that worked at the restaurant.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
I can hear myself, and this may not have happened, but I can absolutely hear myself in my memory going, yeah, but it's so funny. We have to go back just for this one.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Like cook people their homemade, you know, food from home that they liked. Take a break, honey. No, she couldn't do it. She was like obsessive, which I love. Oops, sorry. That's a, that reminds me of my grandma. Like my grandmother's index fingers were both bent at almost like right angles because of how much she cleaned.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Cause she was, she came over here from Ireland when she was 17 and she was a maid for most of her life until she met my grandfather. So it's like those old country people are just like, we're here to earn it. We're here to fucking get it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Yeah, that's right. And also, if you start a business, you got to put give it your all. So you make it into something. And they really did. They were this amazing family success story. And Marderos, well, he would constantly say to the whole family, success means nothing if we don't stay as one. Greed must never rear its head. There's plenty for all of us.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And so he had a sister and she had two sons and they loved all of each other. They were cousins, but they were they felt more like they were each other's. You know, he had four boys. She had two sons. They were all, you know, very, very close. Yeah. In fact, his wife was quoted as saying, before we married, he told me, I'm going to live with my parents my whole life. I will never leave my mother.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
She was queen of the house, not me. Next to God, it was his mother. Holy shit. So just to give you a sense of that. So... Medeiros is diagnosed... Sorry, I don't have the date on this, but I believe it was in, like, 2001, I think, or so. He gets diagnosed with inoperable bladder and brain cancer. Holy shit. So... he basically felt like he knew something was wrong.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
He had pains in places, but he didn't go to the doctor. He avoided it. And so by the time he went in, it had spread. Um, so he holds a family meeting and he tells his mother and his sister, his wife that he's dying. And that when he dies, he wants the Zancou business to go to his four sons. Oh my goodness. Um,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Well, it's fun to be able to go like, oh, here's hair. Because the people like it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Now the problem there is that his four sons were at the time and had been for a couple of years, fuck ups. And in ways where the oldest son had been caught trying to cheat on a law school entrance exam. And so it was, had been a top student at, I think it was Woodbridge university. And so he was, basically got kicked out and was like barred from ever taking the test because he was going to cheat.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Wow. Uh, so after that he became an evangelical Christian. He was like one of those guys that stands on the street with a bullhorn. Yeah. Um, the second oldest son, uh, was tried for attempted murder when the pimp of the sex worker that he had just, uh, visited, um, stole money from him and he ended up chasing him up the freeway and shooting at his car. And he, he ended up getting, uh,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
When you notice their shit. It's, you know, it's the whole idea.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Tried for attempted murder. Wow. And it turned out to be a mistrial. So he never had to go to jail. But of course, that mark. And of course, you know, if this is the richest family in the community and shit like this starts popping off, everyone's talking about it. Then the two younger were basically just on drugs.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
when I was reading this article, it sounded so harsh, but it's like, that's that thing of like, I, I feel like you can't get rich quick like that and have things just go great. Yeah. Because once you start getting all the money you want and you can buy all the things you want and you start wanting the things you can't have. Yeah. And it gets a little nuts like that. Oh, I got it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Um, look at my riches. I just, please watch your behavior is what I'm saying. Um, Okay, so when he makes this announcement, the room goes silent because he's saying they're the ones that should get it. And his sister and his mother are both just staring at him. And let's see, it says, his mother sat stone-faced.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
She didn't ask what kind of cancer he had or what the prognosis that the doctors gave him. Instead, she blurted out in Armenian, your sons, the shadow they cast is not yours. And then she got up and she walked up the stairs and shut the door. Now, she lived with him, as he had said, him and his wife Rita. She wouldn't speak to him. So she would get up at 730 every morning, go to work, come home.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
They'd be standing in the kitchen. She'd get a glass of water and go upstairs and shut the door.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Yes. And as he was getting chemotherapy, as he was losing his hair, he ended up losing 60 pounds. Oh, my God. He was dying of cancer. Silent treatment. That's so sad. It's really fucked up. And it's very old country. I mean, it's how some people are. It's hard. And obviously, I think knowing, at least based on what the wife says, the relationship that he had with his mother, this...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
was breaking him. It was terrible. Sure. Um... So after a year of the silent treatment, he went into his mother's room and he took down, there was a picture of him as a child in Beirut with her when he was like four years old that she had kept up on her dresser. He took it down. He took out the picture. He ripped it in half.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
He burned the half with her on it and he crumpled up the half with him on it and threw it away and then put the frame back up. And two days later, their house catches on fire.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Yeah. Yeah. And their house, they, him and his wife almost get caught in the house. They have to get rescued by firemen. The house burns down. The mother takes, you know, her stuff or whatever. I don't know how much she had left and moves in with the sister.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
No, but he, as he's going into his sickness and on, you know, I'm sure tons of painkillers and in a weird place, he's telling his son, Steve... that the fire is his mother's doing that she knew based on what he did to the picture that that's, that was her. And I can't stop doing that. Steven, we need a new setup. Um, sorry. Uh, so yeah, he's hallucinating basically and saying that, uh,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
that it was somehow her doing. He believed that his mother and her sisters and his sisters were plotting against him.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
This goddamn business. Well, yeah, I mean, I mean, yeah, yeah, they were. It's it's everybody's worst nightmare. It's kind of like, oh, so this this is actually what it comes down to really at the end. So Steve having to hear this and, of course, loving his grandmother and being in the middle of it said, can't you ever forgive her? And.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And Marderos was quoted as saying, God will forgive the devil before I can forgive my mother. Holy shit. And then he said, because this is a mother, not a devil, which is super sad. It's like, yeah, ultimately your mother turned her back on you when you were in your worst place. And also it's that thing of, I'm sure...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
after years and years of busting her ass to make this restaurant work, he was going to come in and be like, here's how it's going to happen. So it's like giving bad news and bad news.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Yeah. Yeah. That's it's a stage of grief. Totally. But she, um, yeah, it's, it's hard. Yeah. Because when someone else has a disease, then it's all about them and how hard it is for them. You can't be mad at them. Like I'm sure she had tons of guilt. It was just this impacted problem.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Who did it? Jessica P. Thank you, Jessica P. Well done, Jessica P. That is hilarious. Because also, George's face, her mouth is open. It looks like she's going, hi. But she's holding a guitar. That's hilarious. So much good shit. You know, sadly, somebody put my face inside of Selena's face. Oh, no. No, no, no. It's not truly sadly. Oh. This is a comedy podcast. But it...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Um, So anyway, on January 14th, 2003, Marderos, who had been bedridden and was dying, gets out of bed, puts on a white silk suit that he hadn't worn in 20 years, gets a nine millimeter handgun. and a .38 caliber revolver. Whoa. And walks down the stairs of his house. His wife, Rita, couldn't believe what she was seeing. Dude.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And she said, in the way it's written in this article, for a man so near death, cancer everywhere, he looked beautiful. So he's having some weird last... Yeah. Later on in the article, they went. He does not have that outfit on. OK. So they think that she's remembering it because it's this crazy moment. And she's remembering him basically as his beautiful young self that she fell in love with.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
I'm going to cry. Because it's a really beautiful story. But she they lived across the street from each other in Beirut. And she he was 19 and she was 12. And he was like, no, no, no, no. That's not when it started. That's when she first noticed him because he was like the high roller. Yeah. Don't be freaked out. It's actually very sweet.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And then when she got older, like she was 18 and he was like 26. Yeah. They started dating. OK. So it's very sweet. Like she was in love with him all her life. Oh, I'm going to cry. So she said, you're too weak to go anywhere. Please get back in bed. And he said, I feel better. Don't worry. I'm just going to go down to Zancou and see my friends. So she, to see an old friend. And so she, you know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Fuck. was like, all right, I'll see you soon. But he didn't go to Zancou. God damn it. He didn't go to Zancou. He went to his sister's house. The housekeeper lets him in. He sits at the table. The housekeeper gives him lemonade. His sister comes downstairs. She was in the shower. They sit and have a pleasant conversation and share some lemonade. Then...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Margaret, the mother, comes home from work around 2 p.m. and she greets him. She says hello to the daughter first and she says hello to him, puts her stuff down, sits at the table and the housekeeper goes downstairs to her apartment because she knows that they need to talk to each other. So they talk for about five minutes and it's just normal chit chat.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And then he reaches into his waistband for his gun and he shoots his sister across the table. Shut up. Point blank. And then his mother screams and runs for the door and he runs after her and he blocks the door and stands in front of her about like 15 feet away from the door, it said. And he raises the gun in Armenian. She says, don't shoot me, please. And he shoots her eight times.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
He shoots her once, she goes down on the ground and then he stands over her and shoots her seven more times. Holy shit. He looks around the room and sees his 23-year-old nephew is on the stairs, frozen.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And he just turns around, goes over into the living room, sits on the couch and shoots himself in the head.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Mm hmm. So... Oh, my God. Now, Rita, the wife, well, at least at the time of this article, had to be in charge of all the Zankas. No. And it was this whole... They were in court about the trademark and who owned the rights to... It's this huge thing. And I didn't even get into it because there's... There's so much more to this article...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Who were rich kids, you know, who were like, who were rich kids. And she was a very traditional kind of old school wife where she didn't work. She didn't go to the store. She stayed home and was a housewife and took care of that family. And suddenly just got thrown into this. I would never want to raise rich kids, you know? No. Well, but also because that's not anything you have experience with.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
was a picture of me before I stopped drinking. You can find such a range of hideous pictures of me online.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
So like they're having a whole life that you don't even understand.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
So I don't know. That's, um, that's that rough story behind the best restaurant in LA.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Is it still in the family? I think they still do, but I'm not sure I didn't get, I like once the, um, murder part was over, that article goes on forever talking about all that part.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
So I figure if people are super interested in who owns the rights to chicken, you can go for it, but I don't give a fuck.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
It's hilarious.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
It's not cool at all.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
There are a couple. And I've actually thought about this a lot because the line that journalist Mark Arax used when he wrote this article for Los Angeles Magazine about the Zancou chicken murders, that sit crooked and talk straight, which is an Armenian saying.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
as I learned from Mark Arax in that article, has basically people love that line and they love it for this podcast. So it's been brought up in relation to this podcast. So I just want to be very clear that we didn't make it up. Mark Arax actually didn't, but he did. He found it and he
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
That's that beautiful, long-form journalistic work that someone does where they're building out this world, not just the hard and fast true crime journalism, but this beautiful story fully fleshed out of what this family is all about and where they come from. Yeah. I thought about that a lot afterwards because it was just like, man, that one part of an article got so kind of popular.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Yeah. And you just... you just kind of have to separate and you just, I like my thing is just like, whatever. Right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
So thank any older Armenian lady you see the next time you see them if you like that saying because that's who probably her mother said it first. Anyway. In 2006, a court ruled that the trademark that they were basically all fighting over for Zancou chicken, something I eat literally twice a week, minimum, just have to. The trademark for that belonged to both sides of the family.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
That's what the court ruled. So Rita Iskandarian and her four sons own the Zancou's that Medeiros opened. The surviving nephews inherited their mother's share of the first Zancou, the one in Hollywood, and they still co-own it with their aunt. Though they all still battle over the trademark, both sides have continued to basically expand the franchise. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Mine's not. Oh my God. This one where they put my face and just, I'm pretty sure it was Selena's picture. It was like big eighties hair with the pink background. Did you see that Steven? It was, I was like, is that Charles Bronson wearing a wig? Like it looked horrifying. But of course I'm not complaining because of course all the people who saw it were like, Oh my God, this is so cute.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Yes. And go to Zancou because... The Armenian culture in Los Angeles is huge.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
It's the second largest, densest population of Armenians outside of this country of Armenia.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
In Little Armenia. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And that's Little Armenia. And then Big Armenia is Glendale.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Get over there with the Kardashians over at the Carousel Restaurant. But I think it's kind of cool because it's like this story, this restaurant is such a huge part of the city. And the background of the restaurant is just as much a part of Los Angeles as movies and anything else. It's like... If you're going to Zancou on your trip out here, you're doing yourself right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And you're really getting a true taste of L.A., I think. Yeah, absolutely. All right. This episode was originally titled Just the 32 of Us.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
It's a real exercise in humility. Yeah. Corrections Corner as a practice. I think we've really... We've set ourselves up really nicely to just do that inner work every week. How do we fuck up? How do we fuck up? In public. Yeah, for sure. Also, there's Skippers Come On Home, which is us joking that Skippers should come back, listen to the episode after they finish the intro.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
I feel like people listening to Rewind are the opposite of skippers. They're just like, we want to hear every dirty, fucked up thing you've ever done. We're going to be here for all of it. Yeah. We're going to hear every story. We're going to hear every horrible thing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Yeah. All right. Thanks, you guys. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Where you're just like, what? Anyway, I had to complain. And also just, we looked it up. This was in, oh wait, if it was from the Minnesota, then you might not know what we're talking about. But last week's Minnesota. Correction corner. What's that? We have to say correction corner. Correction corner, meow, meow, meow. Georgia talked about a lady who had a disease.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And many doctors, frighteningly enough, listen to this podcast. Do they? Yeah, because those are the people or medical students. I'm not sure people who know how it's actually pronounced.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Oh, good point. No, throw that right in my face. I accept that you're a hundred percent right. But I hate sorry, not sorry, because you don't have to be sorry at all. Is that I, I saw that crop up in like girls talking where it's like, look, sorry. That's not sorry. Where it's like, no, no, no. What you start out as look motherfucker. And then you say your actual opinion. Sorry. I'm yelling.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
It's so good. So join us today as we take you back to September 1st, 2016, when Sausage Party was still in theaters.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Don't apologize. I'm so tired. Oh, you're right. I'm so tired. Oh, here's how you pronounce it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
I got it. There's like that's a sound clip from some guys on the radio or something in England who also didn't know how to say Guillain-Barre syndrome.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
I wish you guys could see Georgia right now. Her legs are so far up in the air. She is the most casual person I've ever seen in my life. This is the loungiest. You're fucking lounging in your home. Lounging so hard right now. As is your American right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Look at, you look so light.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Oh, please. Will someone who's good at computers go on to Wikipedia and edit that page? What's the high school name? Woodbridge High School. In? Irvine, California. Woodbridge High School, Irvine, California.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Hello, welcome to My Favorite Murder. My name's Karen, and I sure love murder. How about you, girl over there?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Yeah. I mean, that's the other thing, too. Of all the people we know that say, I'm not weird, I'm not alone, you know, all that excitement. Well, now it's turning into... Because then the second wave seemed to be people at work keep catching me listening to this and giving me dirty looks or seeing the logo and giving me a weird look. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
But we just got a tweet from somebody who sent a picture that said... was it on the Facebook page or Twitter? I can't remember where they hang up a sign on the door that says murder time. Do not come in and then listen to the podcast at, at work altogether. Oh, like the whole crew does. Yeah. Well, I mean, she didn't, she was very vague about all of it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Um, I should, I should find the name, but if you guys hear this, will you please send us at least slightly more information so we can give you a legit shout out. Cause I, it made me laugh so hard when I saw that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
I love it. Well, the same thing happened to me with my sister's best friend, Adrienne, who I talked about, I think on the very first episode. She had a hometown. Yeah. She, well, she loved Richard Ramirez. So when I said, who should I talk about? It came out of her mouth so fast that that's when I discovered she was a murder.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Before the podcast had even started. And it was shocking because I known her since she was 12 years old and I was 10 years old. So, and never knew that that was an interest of hers. So she recently started listening. She went backwards through it and has been texting me constantly of like, dude, I love this podcast so much. And, and,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Adrian and my sister were two of the most evil teenage girls anyone could have had the nightmare to grow up with. They were sullen and sulky. And the only way they would let me hang out with them when she spent the night on the weekend, she would come and stay the whole weekend with us. But they would... Lock the door and leave me out of the room.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And what I had to do to get in the room with Laura and Adrian was make up a lip sync dance routine to a Pat Benatar song.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
We just basically play a Pat Benatar song. But yeah, that's all it would be. And then you'd be like, right now she's lifting her legs straight above her head. Oh my God. That's so big sisters, man. Well, and also just if you're younger and you hate your sister, just know that's going to change around when you're like 22 and then you're going to be besties for the rest of your life.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Well, and also I have my sister and Adrian to thank for like all of my training because that's pretty much the most professional training I got. And then, Oh yeah. On stage.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
And, of course, Engineer Steven is here standing by with his mustache and his... His... Stuff.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
All right. That was a big, long one. Did you really not ever finish The Night Of? You've never seen the end? I didn't ever finish it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Can you think of an example of a series you got through because you liked the lead actor the way I, of course, was returning week after week for my friend Riz Ahmed?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Oh, you're not a Bateman fan?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 32: Just the 32 of Us
Okay? Okay? Yeah, he's being casual, improvisational, real talking.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
You just keep doing it to yourself. Yeah. Today, we're revisiting episode 27, which is a really fun one. It's titled Your Hometown Murder Email Roundup. Who thought of that? What a great title. And this is the episode that paved the way for our mini-sodes where we tell you your hometowns, because guess what? They never stopped coming in. I mean, nine years. Nine years. We love it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
That's a murderer's name. No, wait. No, he's the victim. Anyways, that's what I meant. It sounds like a victim.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Good job, Charlotte. Did I ever tell you? So I totally don't believe in ghosts. If they exist, fine. I'm not going to argue it. But when I was a little kid, I was in bed. I had insomnia. I was like, I woke up like three in the morning. I was lying there in bed and I saw, and we had like a, um, We had like a closet that like on roller doors. Yes. And one just opened. One of the closets just opened.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
While you were lying there looking at it? I didn't have cats yet because my parents were still married and that wasn't a thing yet. So like I just got all the courage in my life and ran to my parents' room. But I totally saw the... I saw it open. Oh my God.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
If you have one, send it to MyFavoriteMurder at Gmail, not my personal email account that I gave out in the beginning of this show. Yeah, that's right. What's your new email? My favorite murder at Gmail.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
I'll take some time and send it in. This is exactly what you want. You heard a sound. It meant nothing at the time. And then it turned out it meant fucking everything. And here's the story behind it. Like that is exactly what we want.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Okay. I'm going to start. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to start mellow to keep you motherfuckers to stay around. Because sometimes I'll tune into these podcasts. It's like a listener shit. And I'm like, oh, this is going to be boring. I came here to listen to you guys talk. Right. So no, I'm going to go slow.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
You want to catch them and they're all good. Okay. All right. I'm going to start good.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
You are, but you are correct. Okay. Okay. Okay. I just want to say that it's correct. So Samantha M says, so I have one of the creepiest hometown murder stories. At first, it never occurred to me. Then I remembered this horrible quadruple murder that happened while growing up. I went to elementary junior in high school with these identical twins.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
They were a grade older than me, so I never had a class with them, but it wouldn't have mattered anyway. They didn't associate with anyone from school, didn't go to parties, weren't allowed to go to dances, and didn't even speak to anyone besides each other.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
They ate lunch alone at a table to themselves. Identical twins. Identical twins. They were of Middle Eastern descent, so I assume their parents were simply strict. The odd thing about them, however, is that they dressed, and this is in all caps, identical every single day, the entire time I knew them. This beginning from kindergarten to graduation.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
And when I say identical, I mean everything from their hair barrettes to their watches, socks, and shoes match. Never missed a day. We know where this is going. It was a golden retriever.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
It was two golden retrievers on each other's shoulders with a trench coat. Anyways, we all graduated and never saw them again. Their parents were very wealthy. They lived in this gated community in the mansions of San Clemente. That's Orange County, where I'm from. Very rich people. Where their mom's best friend lives. I actually, where my mom's best friend lives.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
So push your earbuds in a little deeper because now we can all be day one listeners. Okay, here's the intro of episode 27.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
I actually did my pictures for my wedding and got ready at her house, the mom's house, because it's so beautiful and overlooks the ocean. The girls were still living at home and attending college when this happened. Family members approached police saying that they hadn't heard from the girls and their parents for a while and it was unusual. Oh.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
The police did a perimeter search and stated that maybe they had gone on vacation. Yeah, wrong. Per protocol, they were not allowed to break in yet. The next week, the family passed through the police again, stating that this was highly unusual for them not to let anyone know they had left.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
I believe it was two or more perimeter checks before police finally broke in, at which time the smell was so bad, they had to have people come in with scuba masks. Oh, no. The bodies were so badly decomposed, it took a while to find the cause of death, but they were able to determine that the entire family was wearing black. No evidence of a struggle was present.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
The girls were lying next to each other in bed. The grandmother was on a... lounge chair and the parents were in their closet. Eventually they determined the girls and grandmother died of a prescription drug overdose. And the parents went in the closet where their mother shot the husband, where the mother shot the husband and then killed herself.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
The whole thing was super creepy and made me realize how you never really know what goes on in a person's life behind closed doors. I feel bad for what kind of lives these girls must have had in spite of their outward facade of money and privilege. Hope to hear more of you guys. Oh, thank you, Samantha. That's so sad.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
And if I had twins, one of their heads would be shaved their entire life. That's a good idea. I would never cut their hair. That's a good idea. Right? Make sure it's the girl. Yeah. And then they'd psychologically be fine from then on out.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Yeah. That's so intense. It is where, you know, you think I do this a lot or I think back to kids I went to elementary school with and I'm like, Oh man, I bet you had some fuck, like your shit was real fucked up.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Let's start over. I hate that. But we're leaving it in, but let's say let's start over. Okay. Let's start over.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Yes. I know that Robert, this kid in my class, like everyone made fun of him because he smelled bad and wore the same clothes all the time. And now I'm like, oh, your mom was a hoarder and couldn't have her. Like, I clearly understand now that like, it wasn't your fucking choice to be like that. And you got made fun of and That's I hope he's okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
I got it. And I did it to other people. Like as much as I want to be like, I was a nerd and made fun of a lot. Like, well, I deflected my, my shit by making fun of other people. Like I wasn't better than the popular kids making fun of me. Like. Then you shouldn't have a podcast. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
So it's not you. I wish I was like Matilda or like those kids in movies where you're like, they stand up for kids who are underdogs and make friends with them. And it's like, no, I was kind of a dick too. I mean, that's the majority of people, I think. All we can do now is have a great podcast.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
All we can do now is podcast to the world. Oh, yeah. This one was so sad. Yeah. And heartbreaking. Yeah. And so true about not knowing what goes on behind closed doors in people's lives, no matter what facade they put up. You just never know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
This is Karen's second hometown from Charissa.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
S? Is it because mine are soft?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
There's a new level of self-consciousness. Oh, for sure.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
It's just you and I. I know. It's just you and I. And my asses.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Well, you and I have been talking pretty mellowly for the past 15 minutes. That's right. And then we suddenly break in face to face into like newscaster voice is weird.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Fucking together, people are trying so hard to have a goddamn baby. And then these fucking people who have meth and kill the babies. It's like six in a row.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
That's enough for me.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
All right. This is from Leonard. Leonard. What's up, Leonard? So my hometown murder story happened in my high school days. I was coming home from a basketball practice later than I normally would have. And as I came to the corner to walk to my block, I see half a dozen cop cars surrounding my best friend's house. Oh.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Lights are flashing everywhere, and I see my friend in the back of one car, his brother in another car. I'm assuming he needs cop cars. And on the stairs leading up to the house, on the opposite corner, a female body not fucking moving. I'm like, what the fuck is going on? So later, I come to find out that my friend's dad evidently got into an argument with his wife and began, all caps,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
stabbing her over and over. My friend was home and tried to save her and fought off his father. I repeat, fought off his father after stabbing his mother and he took off in his car and escaped. Meanwhile, the mom is still fucking alive and gets out of the house and staggers to the neighbor's house, but collapses before reaching the door and all caps, dies. Dies at the neighbor's stairs. Jesus.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
So yeah, first and only time seeing a dead body, not at a funeral. So my friend and his brother eventually get cleared and released and the media picks up on the murder and calls him the killer dentist. And then he says, guess what his job was? And he's a fugitive for like three to four days. So dad is fucking gone.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Then news breaks that he was found in the next state over, committed suicide in a motel and left a note.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Memory is fuzzy, but he and his wife were separating and he had been sleeping on the couch for some time. And what I clearly remember is, though was me, my friend and his dad soon to be murdered, murderer eating at fucking Chili's like a week before it went down. And to be a goddamn cliche, I honestly did not see it coming. He was the nicest guy, et cetera, et cetera. Oh man.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
My day has been murderlicious. And then I just throw myself off a balcony. Let's start over.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
He wrote et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, friend and his brother moved to Florida to live with extended family. And it's nearly a decade before they moved back home. That story was legit true. Feel free to check it out. Late 90s, early 2000s. Leonard, I believe you. I'd love to know what you guys, what you think, even if you don't read it on your show, exclamation mark. Well, guess what, Leonard?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
But if you do, give me a heads up. I'm weird and I'm listening to your old shows from episode one on. Again, thanks for reading and don't get murdered. Wow. Thanks, Leonard. Leonard sat at Chili's with a fucking murder. I didn't know what he ate. Is that weird?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
The killer dentist. Guess what his...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
We already know the answer. Click. Goodbye. Oh, I just murdered my toast. What were you going to say? I was going to say that I watched two episodes of Marcella. You know when it's like, I know one of them is wrong and I don't know which one.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
And this is the witness, right?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
I've always wanted to do the Beaumont siblings, but it's so... It goes nowhere.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
But they were seen talking to like a young surfer guy. Yeah. And then they just fucking off the face of the earth disappeared. And never heard from no trace. All three of them. Like a girl and two boys. I don't know. I think... It was... There was a girl and there were boys. I don't know. Yes, yes, yes. Somewhere around there.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Shoot.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
I feel like we need to look this up. Should like give them a shout out.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Very awesome.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
I'm looking at, here I am looking at things. Here I am. Here I am. Son of a cunt. What is it? Son of a cunt. That's a new one. Everyone's yelling it at home and I'm so sorry.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
We'll Instagram it. Yes. So you read yours and then I'll keep looking. Okay, it's your turn, Karen. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
I just read it. No, it's your turn to look and ignore me. You're like, no, I was just... I'm drinking too much Beaujolais. It's your turn. Okay, we're back. I don't know how we have not covered this murderer yet. Like, we need to do this one.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Yeah, there's two in this episode that I'm like, these need—Thora Christensen that's coming up, we need to do that one, too. I did it. Well, then there you go. Okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Right. That's one of the things about it is it's like she keeps correcting them. Yeah. I wasn't into it. You did not like it? I need you to talk me through it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
That makes complete sense. Yeah, because it was a soul fang murder. Okay. Yeah. If it was live, that means I don't remember a moment from that because the adrenaline was just like so high.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Like, that was the coolest. It felt so chill. Yeah. Just like we were hanging out with friends.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Oh, the podcast we were trying to think of during that episode is called Thinking Sideways. It ended in 2019, but their catalog is still up and you can listen to their episode on the Beaumont children, which, yeah, like we have to do that story. It's fascinating. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
All right. It really does. I'm going to do a long one. Okay. This is from Angie. She says in my hometown when I was 16, there was an entire family murdered by the 17 year old son. He went to my high school, rode the bus with me when he went to my neighbor's house. Neighbor is loose where I'm from, from country. He lives about two miles away.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
And the sister he murdered used to hang out in the quote band hallway every day, which is why I knew her. My mom was a cop for the city of Grand Rapids. And on her way home that night, she came upon the murder and called me to see if I knew anyone who lived in the house. It was about four miles away from our home and on a very busy road.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
The murder wasn't in her jurisdiction, but she was a prominent police officer and knew county officers who were. She stopped to help. Naturally, she wouldn't tell me any of the details because she fiercely protected her daughters from the horrible things she saw that they desperately wanted to know about. Upon reflection, maybe this is why I became obsessed with true crime.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
I just really didn't. I thought. It wasn't believable to me that she was so crazy. I'm not going to give anything away. It's this British procedural crime drama. Yeah, we've talked about it. I know, but maybe someone's new here. Oh, true, true, true, true, true, true. Are you new?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Lucky for me, I lived in a small enough town that rumors spread and details leaked out about the murders from other people who knew the cops that worked the case. The story goes like this. John Seasling, 17 years old, got into a fight with his mother and his sister, Caitlin, 14. He claims he blacked out. And when he woke up, they were all murdered, including his eight-year-old sister in her bed.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
And he was covered in blood. He called the police and said that, oh, Jesus, here we go. He said, two black guys robbed them and murdered his family, but he was able to get away. And she writes, those pesky black guys always committing those mass murders. I mean, come the fuck on. Then he confessed to the killings once the police arrived. However...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Apparently, he beat his mother and Kate Luton with baseball bats and stabbed them with large kitchen knives. He also apparently... Oh, fuck. Ready for this? He also apparently raped his 14-year-old sister with... Oh, no. Said baseball bat. Oh. Cops who worked the murder apparently vomited when they got there and said that it was the worst crime scene they had ever come upon. Ugh.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
blood everywhere. The worst part, and she says maybe, it's all pretty horrible, is that he made his youngest sister go lay in her... I don't... And then he did things... He slit her throat. Another pretty awful part is that we heard Caitlin got away from him and ran out into the street, but he dragged her back in. They found blood streaks across the ground.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
The most horrible part about this is that the road they lived on was right by the highway and nearly always busy. No one saw this somehow. He used to have weirdo fantasies about coming upon the scene and saving her. No, wait, I'm sorry. I used to have weirdo fantasies about coming upon the scene and saving her. That's not weirdo. That makes sense.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
No, those are my fantasies and why I'm going to therapy. The murder stayed with me a while. Yeah. School the next day was so eerie and quiet. Everyone knew what happened and everyone had stories about John and Caitlin. John was weird, that much I knew. And in the weeks after the murder, when we all talked about it, I couldn't remember if I actually ever talked to John or not.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
In my memory now, he used to say weird shit to me on the bus, but honestly, lots of dudes in my small podoc town were weirdos. We still all talk about the murder, and I will still hear new rumors about what he did and why. He always claimed he was abused by both his mother and father, and his mother and sister just made him angry.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Some people thought it was because he was a Satanist when he admitted to being Wiccan. And other people talked about hearing him say he wanted to kill his family, but no one took him seriously. Just awful. I recently heard 12 years later about the cops vomiting everywhere. The last line in that article is upsetting. He had some advice for people. Don't abuse your children or they might kill you.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Well, yeah. I feel like if they had abused him, he would have just killed them.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Yeah. I feel like the raping your sister and slitting the throat of an eight-year-old is something's wrong with you. For sure. Yeah, because they didn't abuse him. No, and it has nothing to do with... It's not revenge. It's not revenge.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
But also opinions. Yes. They all have opinions, which is fun.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
The one guy who sounds like a radio host from the 40s is amazing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
I don't either. It's a really good podcast though. I'm Georgia and that's Karen. Okay. You want to go? Why don't we both do one more? Sure. We're at 50 minutes.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
All right, we're out of that. Do you have a case update on this one? I actually do. So in 2022, the state Supreme Court ruled that sentencing minors to life without parole violates the state constitution. And since John was 17 when he was convicted, he became eligible for resentencing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
So in 2023, he was resentenced to spend 40 to 60 years behind bars, which means the earliest he'll be eligible for release is 2043. Okay. Okay, so here are the final stories from this episode, starting with Karen sharing Molly's hometown, as well as my story telling Kylene's hometown. All right, ready? Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Yeah. I think that I am less interested. You don't like drama per se.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
You know, I didn't say the initials of the last Grand Rapids, Michigan. Yeah, because I wasn't sure. Because you were afraid? That's where my husband's from. Anyways.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
I don't like slow and that I don't like, I can't understand your accent half the time. So I'm not following. And also you're driving on the wrong side of the road.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
That wasn't long, Molly.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Hormones, anger, especially back in the... I feel like there was such a switch from the baby boomers to like the Gen Xers and that there was like... There was not, they didn't understand each other. No, not at all. And they didn't tolerate each other.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
And like hitting your spankings and belt whippings were like you being a good parent.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
I got fucking spanked with wooden spoons. Did you really? Yeah. It sucked. And now I look at my nephews and I'm like, that is fucking... beating them up with an arm, like hitting them. Yeah. Violence against children to teach them not to do something. But were your parents spanked? Because a lot of times that's what normalizes it. My dad was definitely abused by his father.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
And why are you drinking tea like seven times a day?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Left the home after he, by punching his father in the face and then walked out at 16 and never came back. Wow. But my mom, I don't know. My mom wasn't. Wow. But she was the one who spanked us. It's all coming out on my favorite murder.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
My mom and I are friends.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
All right. Let's do, wait. Okay. Okay. This one's good.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Kyleen writes, um, This story makes the hair on my arm stand up. Rarely are we confronted with the realization that we so easily could never have been born. When she was 20 years old, my mother went on a date with a serial killer. His name was Thor Nill Christensen, and he murdered several women in Solvang and Isla Vista, California between 1976 and 79. What?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Again, fucking Central California, Northern California. Get the fuck out. Solving is up like wine country, right? It's like two hours from Los Angeles. Yeah. Like right outside of Santa Barbara. It's a Dutch Disneyland, basically.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
It's for tourists. Yeah. There's an alpaca farm. And Isla Vista is like the shitty part of Santa Barbara where all the kids go to college. Oh, okay. Right? All right. So the way she tells the story, and to be honest, she's only told me twice. So once as a warning as a teenager, and then just a few months ago after plowing her with several glasses of Pinot Grigio. So some details are hazy.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
is that she was a sorority girl at UCSB, Santa Barbara, living in a studio apartment. One night at a bar, a quote, surfer looking guy with blonde hair hit on her and she agreed to leave with him. Nope. Her bartender friend pleaded with her not to leave, but she didn't listen. The surfer... Hold on. The surfer at the bar drove a, quote, super creepy van, and they climbed in. Oh. Oh, the 70s.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
After driving around and making out, he suddenly turned down a way she didn't recognize. Eventually, he pulled into a cemetery. Oh. It was there he parked, went to the back of the van, and pulled out a suitcase full of women's clothing. Oh. He told my mom to put on the clothes and get out of the van. My mother put on the clothes and developed a plan.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
In a stunning stroke of genius, she said, oh, this is hot. This is so turning me on. And shaking, she led him back to her apartment where she lived alone. Admittedly, this was the flaw in my mother's plan, but thank God she got out of the fucking cemetery. Yes, 100%. Oh, my God. I don't even know if my dad knows the story, let alone the police.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
My mother said she never went to anyone and then moved back home to San Diego, so missed when he was captured. She didn't know his name or that he was a serial killer, so in May, when I plowed her with wine to get her to spill the details... She means plied her with wine. Okay, but... Please don't. It's not me. Okay. Okay. I'm just saying. You're right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
You ply people with wine. I think Kyleen and I are like similar people because I swear to God it says plowed. I believed it the whole time and I'm fine with it. I plied her with wine to get her to spill the details because I'm a terrible daughter. I researched it. Oh, I'm so embarrassed now, Karen.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
All right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
But that's... No, I get it. You're right. You're right. You're right. Okay. Originally, I thought this, quote, surfer dude was the original Night Stalker, but the dates in the story don't add up. Love this girl that she's like researching. Yes. She's like, which serial killer could it be? Yeah. When I stumbled across Christensen... I showed her his picture and she wrote, which was a mistake.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
And she confirmed. I'm not sure what kind of information you need to confirm the story, but I'm happy to help in any way I can. Like we're questioning this girl's story. Oh, I know. I saw the photo. Karen's showing me this photo. He looks like he'd be a wrestler from the 70s. That's exactly what he looks like. He was called the original Night Stalker wrestler.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
I think he was German or something.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
He definitely looks like Macho Man Randy Savage.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Yeah, that's it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Wow. That's so intense. I want to, I want to investigate the story more and know if like putting him in women's clothes was a thing or like the, were those the clothing of the women who he had killed before her? This bitch almost got killed. That is. Yeah. She was in it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Yeah, I like that. Here's what happened.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
According to me who experienced it. Right. Exactly. Those were fun.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
There's a Ted Bundy date one. You're not even making that up. There's a Ted Bundy date.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Yes.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
It's just crazy how many like my next door neighbor killed his wife. Like there's so many of those. Yes. Little ones that you've never heard of and never will.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
But people knew them and were like, no, they were nice guys. They're always normal, nice guys. Right. And then they just snap. They snap. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of the son of the family.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
I feel like it's hard to be the eldest son when the dad is a dick. For sure. I feel like a lot of that, the dad has so many expectations, especially back then where it's like, you know, it's so important to be popular. Yeah. And big time. Yeah. You have to be like the quarterback or whatever. And the dad is trying to, trying to, what's the word? Live vicariously through the son.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
And maybe the mom, the, the, the kid loves the mom so much that, And he's pissed at her for never having stood up for him. But he can't be pissed at her because she is as abused as he is. Right. I mean... And the sister's just like kind of a popular cunt. What are we writing right now?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
You guys, if you're a guy, please don't kill your family.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Be like her. She's great. She's a darling person. Read a book, man. Don't read Catcher in the Rye. Just stop yourself right there. Yeah. Is that it for us? Elvis? Elvis will let us know when that's it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Yeah. Thank you for listening. Go to My Favorite Murder on the fucking Instagram.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Yeah, tell a friend.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Bye.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
And really what it came down to probably was neither of us had our homework done and we were scrambling and sweating. And I'm really good at excuses and we're like good at figuring out like... How to get around things?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
That's exactly what everybody looked like. She could not be more on point. The on pointiest point person.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
I feel like when you're the little sister of the family, you figure out, you get like squirrely and you are in a maze your entire life. And you figure out the right turns. And if they're not the right turns, you fucking scratch through the wall and make them the right turns.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Making fun of you. So you better get over there, gal. Get your ass over there. And that's what my favorite murder is. It's a fucking scratching through the wall of the maze to get to the finish line first.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
All right. So...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
We really appreciate it. We really do. Thank you for listening to this episode of Rewind. We'll keep doing them if you keep listening. Yeah, and stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Middle-aged have had divorced... Mother of three cosplayers.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
You know what's so weird is you can tell how they got hot. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. Like you can tell how then later in the 80s, early 90s, maybe in the early 40s, they suddenly got super hot. Yeah. But then they show the dude that they're dating or the lady they're dating their photo from high school and you're all like, what the fuck?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
But I do want her clothes. Like that's my style. Yes, that's right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
They all look like they have too many layers on.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Fair play. I don't think it's fair. I think it's unfair that we can talk about it. And I'm like super excited about it. And other people are like, I finished it. And I have so many questions about like, you know, like who's this? Who's that? What happened here? What happened there? Because you haven't finished it? Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
The kid without teeth. Oh, yeah. Love him. He's a spinoff in and of himself. Oh, my God. He's a great actor. You know what I love about that is the opening credits. Yes. They could not be more 80s. They're so dead on. They're so... Not Unsolved Mysteries, but what was the other one? Like Imaginary Stories or... Someone's yelling it at home and I know they are.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
It's not... It was like Creepy Stories...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
No, but it was like that. Creepy stories. Creepy stories. I don't know. Anyway, it's great. I love how dated this is that we're talking about the first season of Stranger Things. The first season. That was an epic season for a season.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
It felt good. It was good. The sweaters were great.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
We talk about a Rolling Stone article that ran about us. Isn't it crazy that 26 episodes in, we were in Rolling Stone? Like, I remember feeling elated. Like, I read Rolling Stone as a kid. Oh, yeah. I was obsessed. And that was such a moment for me.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Oh, I love that. Right? From us, though, not like Land's End or whatever. Oh, no, it's going to be one of my old sweatshirts. I was going to choose one of Karen's old sweatshirts.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
I think it'll work great. It's going to happen. All right, let's get into the episode. This is really cool because we had the idea to read Hometowns, which is now a fucking legendary Monday episode. Oh my God. Where we just read your Hometowns. If you guys like skip those somehow, you are missing out on some of those beautiful stories.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Beautiful, terrifying, heartwarming, hilarious, weird fucking stories. It's become its own monster. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Yeah. And I think it's also, I hear from people saying, I don't like true crime, so I only listen to the minisode.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
So it's kind of great for like your mom on a road trip or something like that. Right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Perfect. Okay, so let's kick this off. In this hometown, Karen reads a story from a listener named Charlotte.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
And we absolutely didn't text each other this morning and say, I don't have time to find a murderer. I can't do this homework. I have a job today for one day of my life.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
for 10 minutes and find her a murder. Oh, no. What about all the people who are finding us and this is their first episode they listed?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Yeah, start from the beginning.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
It's just weird. I like that we always know what episode, how many episodes we've done based on just because that's what we call them. Yeah, that's right. So I got a bunch. So people who start the podcast from the beginning don't know that. And we didn't have a My Favorite Murder Gmail then. Right. So they send them to my email address. So you don't see them.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
I know that they are not deep into the podcast when they send them to my account. But I also hide them from you. So we're good.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
We love secrets. We love them. Do you... Why don't you start? Someone said... Someone on the Facebook page was like, I love the way you guys don't know who's supposed to go first. You're so off every week. Yes. When I'm like, it's your turn to start. We're never right. You're never right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
There was a great, there was a Rolling Stone article. Thank you very much, Rolling Stone. Oh, that's right. That said, like, they're not big on facts. They say themselves there's a reason they're in the comedy category. Yeah, but hey, guess what, Rolling Stone?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
We were way off when we started this podcast by two people who are very complicated, for some reason, last names. Yeah. Very compound. So that's just two fucking words that everyone uses on a regular goddamn basis. And yet they just don't go next to each other, according to everyone in the fucking world.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
And they never got covered by Rolling Stone.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
It'll bring you guys together. Yeah. Instead of being mad at her for throwing a Barbie at your head when you were six. Lee. Lee Hardstark?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
And welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Man, everything's fine.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
We should have our sisters do an episode one week.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
If they can't, if your family can't watch it on TV and see your name on television, they don't think you're succeeding. Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't count.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 27: Your Hometown Murder Email Round-Up
Love and judge. Same thing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
This is exactly right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
You just do you. Like, I think that's really where that saying came from as a podcast in 2016.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I certainly, I can give you my answer before you finish the sentence. Fuck no. Are you kidding? A middle-aged TV writer being like, yeah, let me get in there and make some clips and make some content for, what is it, Gen Alpha? No thanks.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
But now you're what? What are you getting? Now my face is falling.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I meant what tricks have you learned?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Yep.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Just layering layers and layers of makeup. That'll do it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I mean, I feel like we've never been strangers to our own flaws and foibles. And then, yeah, it's just a new way of... It's a fun thing. And it's like where podcasting is going.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
It's just kind of like the option that you need to give people. Totally. But it definitely is distracting.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And it distracts the mind. Yeah. Yeah. As we perform.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
That's what we like to do. Right now, this show is not on video, so I'm wearing just a towel on my head just for, just got out of the bathtub.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And this is what we're doing. That's it. All right. Well, I like how in that we just did a new intro because there wasn't that much going on in this intro. Some of our old intros are just chock full of insanity. But this mostly is like that we are so stoked to only be audio. Yeah. And then me loving the night of. Yeah. And not so much.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I think it was like a first, because I remember, and tell me if I'm wrong, when we first talked about The Night Of, we had both watched it like unplanned, right? So then it was like, did you see? It was that feeling. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Because you see, every Wednesday, we take the time to recap our old episodes for you, but we add all new commentary, we add updates, and we add insights.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
It was such a good show.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Oh my God, it's so luxurious. And with Quince, you can add quality luxury essentials to your wardrobe without the hefty price tag.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I'm wearing one right now. And check out their 14-karat gold jewelry, Italian leather handbags, and European linen sheet sets.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Like it's straight out of a succession. Yeah. I know it's very key pieces, as my mom used to say. It's like her old advice was like, but invest in that cashmere sweater because you'll have it forever and you'll wear it forever. But it's like with quints, you don't have to invest. You just get to buy something because you want it and it is affordable.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
For a cashmere sweater, the fact that it's 50 bucks is like for me, that's a dream. You love those. Love them. Give yourself the luxury you deserve with quints. Go to quince.com slash MFM for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Goodbye.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Okay. Mine is... I wish I had four months to research this. Because the first time I heard of this murder, I thought, oh, who cares? Not about the people, but that's not my style. Yeah, I get that. Like... as we've said a million times, but like Silence of the Lambs is my ideal murder everything situation. You've got a weird serial killer that's got an M.O. and a whole plan and a creepiness.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
So now join us as we take you back to August 25th, 2016. And now you can be a day one listener just like we are. So let's listen to the intro of episode 31. Well, it doesn't matter if you're ready, Stephen. Like the real us is just berating Stephen. Stephen includes a seven second just me reaming him before the episode starts.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And it has always been this crazy way. It's not like he's... It's not a one-off. It's not a crime of passion. It's not whatever. I find that extreme criminal mind thing fascinating. So when I first heard about this crime, I was like, oh, that's not my thing at all. But it kept coming back. I would see it every once in a while looking for other stuff. And then I finally started looking into it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And it is so fascinating. All right. So it's the Lululemon murder. Oh, yes. In Bethesda, Maryland.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Looked into. Okay. I'm excited. Me too. Thanks. Thank you. So I first heard of it, I think it was like a year ago or something. I was doing Tig Notaro's. Tig Notaro has a comedy festival every year called the Benson Ball in D.C., which is where she's from. And so whoever was driving us to the theater that night, we drove down the street and we passed a Lululemon.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I don't think it was the one we were driving by because Bethesda, I believe, is north of Washington, D.C., but he brought it up and told the story. Love him. And he basically just said, oh, did you hear about that really terrible crime that happened at Lululemon? It was really bad, you know, and it was basically one of the employees killed another one. And so I was just like, you know what?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I know now we're talking yoga pants. We're talking crime of passion. I'm not interested in any of this.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Yeah. You're better than me. Crazy expensive. Like they're almost it's it's like Louis Vuitton of yoga pants, which is a hilarious paradox of this is yoga.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Right. So when I first Googled this, a couple of Huffington Post articles came up and one that I really liked is by a girl named, believe it or not, Elizabeth Licorice. And great. That's a great stage name. Oh my God, she wins. Yeah. Amazing. She's all red and her skin is twisted. Uh-huh. No, no.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Delete that. Stephen, mark that concept. Okay, so she wrote an article called Lululemon's Cult Culture, Get Fit or Die Trying. So this girl started working at Lululemon. That's how you pronounce it, right? Lululemon? Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
It sounds right? It's how it's spelled and that's what I assumed.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Lululemon? I think it's Lululemon. But there's an extra... Lululemon would be... There's too many Lus. All right. So I think it's Lululemon. Let's call it... Let's not give a shit. Okay. All right. So... I think you're right. I think you're right. It has... This girl worked there. And so she's talking about what a creepy culture this business has.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
which is very funny because like when I worked at the Gap in the 90s and I only worked there for a year, I really hated it. But it is this thing where they want you as a person that's getting paid shit and mostly working part-time so they don't have to give you full-time benefits and all that stuff. But they still want you to really dig into this.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Yeah, this, the culture, the retail culture of like, and if you sell this, you'll get this and we have to get our numbers up here. Meanwhile, Dawn Fisher, the owner at the time, was making like billions of dollars. Ew, I hate that. So I can see where that was in the 90s. It's now, you know, 20 years later and they have refined this concept.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
So it's like branding and marketing and, you know, lifestyle choices and it's all that kind of stuff. I bet it's the kind of thing where they don't call you an employee. They call you like a team member or whatever the fuck. The Thighmaster. So this girl, yeah, this girl worked there and talked about that...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
She said, Lululemon wants you to know it's elevating the world from mediocrity to greatness and creating components for people to live long, healthy and fun lives.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
No, no, no. No, you have to get really superficial to rise above media. But if you dig deeper, you'll find you'll learn about Landmark Forum. No, they don't. Yes. Which is the ultra secretive, eerily cultish educational series, which Lululemon employees are strongly encouraged to attend. Shut up.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
yes now Lou now I know I have a friend who did landmark forum and is like I believe in it I think it's great and I said yeah but isn't it a crazy pyramid scheme where you basically have to bring people in and you spend thousands of dollars and he goes yeah but I just didn't do that like I got what I wanted and I left and I'm like well you're you're a strong-willed person yeah but I think it's one of those things that like it's like est or anything that just it makes money off of people kind of going this is the answer to my life and then trying to get everyone I know into it so oh it makes me sad so
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
So they encourage their employees to go to the Landmark Forum, which is bizarre to me. So bizarre. And before you're in line for Landmark, you're bombarded with Brian Tracy motivational CDs and a book club that culminates with Atlas Shrugged. Oh, shit. Yeah. So it's not... It's so culty.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
It's like, get that money and get yours and empowerment, but in this weird culty way, which also it's like, this is your job. This is your retail job. Yeah. Yeah. So...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
She said all of it made walking into work feel like she was time traveling to Salem because with the Lululemon Creed and catechism comes a collective mentality that thrives on scapegoats and leaves you feeling worthless if you subsist on anything but spring water and kale. Once another employee sneered at me from across the floor and said,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Stephen has really bad Stockholm Syndrome. Evil. We are. Starting now. Welcome to My Favorite Murder. Karen. Karen. I'm just going to yell your name. Karen. Georgia. Karen. Georgia, we started the podcast.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
and said the soda I happened to be enjoying would rot me from the inside out. Eventually, we were all issued reusable acrylic cups and forbidden to drink anything but water. Oh my God, stop it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
So this is... I'm just trying to paint a little bit of a picture and I really encourage if you're slightly interested in this to look up these articles because it's pretty fascinating how many directions that goes in of... Yeah, that sounds like a fun read. Yeah. Well, and just the intensity of a retail job.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Right. And when you work there, everything about you is inventoried and measured in terms of authenticity and integrity, which sounds reasonable until you realize your yoga mats on a sweaty, slippery slope that missing your extra... I'm still reading the article.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Uh, missing your extracurricular kickboxing class, taking too long to pee during your break or falling to throw or failing to throw a kitchen party. And then she says in parentheses, don't ask what, um, in the fitting room means you're deficient in character and devoid of morals.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I'm going to ask. We have to find out. But it's like, I think it's in, you know, it's secret in-house language. Yeah. Those girls happen to just be older, sportier versions of seriously cutthroat sorority sisters. So that's one person's take about what it felt like to work there. So what's kind of to go along with that, this company's had a lot of controversy since they started.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
It's a Canadian company. They opened in, well, in 2002 to mark the opening of their second store in Vancouver. They offered a free outfit to anyone who would stand naked on the street for 30 seconds.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
But like also, so it's a store that's mostly women's clothing. Yeah. And you're basically trying to get ladies to stand around naked so you give them their $140 yoga pants. That's so sad.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
That same owner, I can't find his name right now. He, in an interview with the National Post Business Magazine, which sounds very Canadian to me, but I'm not sure. He said he purposely named it Lululemon with lots of L's because, quote, it's funny to watch Japanese people try to say it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
He also once blogged that breast cancer, quote, came into prominence in the 1990s due to all the cigarette-smoking power women who were on the pill and taking on the stress previously left to men in their working world. I am going to Lulu murder you. You piece of shit. His name, sorry, that guy's name, I'm trying to, oh, that guy's name is Chip Wilson.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And of course, later on, everybody heard about the, they in, I think it was 2011. Oh, no, sorry, 2013. They had to recall their line of Luan yoga pants because they were see-through.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
they were see-through I've seen girls G-strings from behind in yoga before and then that same CEO when he was interviewed on Bloomberg TV about it he asked he was asked what the nature of the pants recall was he said quite frankly some women's bodies just don't work for it it's more about the rubbing through the thighs how much pressure there is over a period of time you fucking dick
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
So he's basically saying, if you're not emaciated, you can't wear our yoga pants. And if you do, it's your fault. Yeah. Yeah. So he's a superstar. After he said that, of course, he was asked to step down from being the CEO because it's, you know, at the time it was 2013. So I'm sorry, sir, that it's not 1945 anymore. You can take that shit elsewhere. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And in 2007, they had a line of clothing called Vita-C, S-E-A, which the company said was made from seaweed fiber. And according to the tags, they said it released marine amino acids, minerals, and vitamins into the skin upon contact with moisture. Did it stink? Reducing stress and providing anti-inflammatory, antibacterial, hydrating, and detoxifying benefits. Bullshit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I don't know if you've ever asked me how I was like that. How are you? How are you really? How are you? Let's have a moment of vulnerability. I feel a lot of anxiety about... Gosh, so many things. You know that weird Wednesday feeling? We're recording this on Wednesday. Will we get it up in time? You know, job stuff. I drink too much coffee all day. Oh, you do.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
So the New York Times, that's exactly right. The New York Times commissioned a laboratory test of a shirt made from Vita-C. And there was no significant difference in mineral levels between the Vita-C fabric and a plain cotton t-shirt. In other words, the labs found no evidence of seaweed in the Lululemon clothing at all. How were you allowed to do that? We're not done.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
In 2008, a mother and daughter found a hidden message in the shopping bag underneath a layer of inspirational quotes such as friends are more important than money. Yeah, right. There was a second note that said, quote, some brief or quick fix instance.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Some brief or quick fix incidences when our minds are clear to be creative are when drunk or stoned or just after an orgasm.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And this is inside a yoga pants bag. So they had this. It turned out that they had printed this up initially. People saw it and were like, what the fuck are you doing here? Well, the other the other quotes were the athletes high is the most long lasting as it can last up to six hours. And there's a little difference between addicts and fanatic athletes.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Both are continually searching for a way to remain in a creative state. So it was all just weird. They were very pro drugs and sex. And then a couple of people got the bags and were like, what's wrong with you guys? This is a yoga pants store. So they took the bags and just sewed over them with friendship is more important than money. But all you have to do is wash the bag a couple of times.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And then the other label came out.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
It's pretty hilarious and also creepy. Like you're getting weird messages anyway. Yeah. And they just the answer back when when that happened was not an apology. They were basically like, we're about speaking our mind. We're about living in this, having new ideas, new experiences. And they basically were like, yeah, we do what we want. We're trying to inspire people. So... Oh, my God.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
You can do that. Like, here's the thing. Yoga is a practice that's about connecting to yourself and connecting, you know, having a body mind connection so that you are more in yourself and calmer, more normal. It's not about spending money. It's not about being better than your sorority sister. But to get a mantra for Transcendental Meditation is fucking three grand. Like, how do you how do they?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Well, no, that's based on how much money you make. But I mean, I'm not defending it because it's it costs money. But what I'm saying is this is a store that's creating that culture of you will spend money always and you will spend money on bullshit because we're going to lie straight to your face and say that our clothes are made of detoxifying seaweed. That's crazy. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Um, so anyway, that's just a little background. All right. So, uh, so it, the worst thing that happened to them, of course, was in 2011, um, on the morning of March 12th, an employee entered their store, the Bethesda Maryland store. And she, uh, she actually went in, um, And she heard something inside, I think it said.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And so she went and got a guy off the street and said, you have to go in there and check. I'm supposed to open the store and there's weird noises. And the guy walked in to like a bloody scene. And it turned out that Brittany Norwood and Jana Murray were lying in the store. Jana was dead and Brittany was tied up, bound hands and feet. Jana had a rope around her neck.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
and hammer knife wounds to her head. Holy shit. And she had been repeatedly struck with a metal stand. Later on, the medical examiner found out she had 330 distinct wounds on her body.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Am I drinking too much Diet Coke to the point where I'm killing myself?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
That's like 10 minutes of hitting. It's insane overkill. Yeah. So when the cop touched Brittany, she flinched. And then she tells the story that the night before they closed the shop and then she'd gone to, I'm saying Jana, but I think it's Jaina. Did I say Jaina? Yeah. I think it's Jaina. So she'd gone to Jaina and said, I need to go back in. I forgot something.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And when they went back in, two masked attackers came, like stormed into the store, whoops, stormed the store with guns and attacked them. And Brittany said, rape them and tied them up and killed Jaina and left her for dead. Had she been hit at all or hurt at all? Yeah. She had injuries too. Okay. And her pants were slit at the crotch. It all looked very bad.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
So... Looked... It all looked very bad. Okay. So... Sorry, I have to scroll down on my dumb thing. So, of course, panic set off because this is apparently a super high-end area. Because that's how those stores are always in. So people are freaking out. There's no violent crime in that area at all. Um, immediately the cops are, uh, set up a manhunt.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Oh, it's only like 23 a day.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Um, there's $150,000 reward for anyone with information leading to an arrest. It's like big and huge. Um, and they start talking to people around the neighborhood and they talk to these employees at the Apple store, which was right next door. And these employees say that, yes, they heard two women arguing and yelling and some weird thumping and fighting noises the night before, um,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
But they never called 911. How do you... They didn't get asked that question in court, which of course... Because it's like, ultimately, it's not about them and what they did or didn't do. Yeah. Aside from... I'm sure they struggle with it. Yeah. Because it's hideous. Definitely. But... Yeah, they didn't.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And then somebody included in one of these articles that I read, there's this really awesome thing about how when you are... When you have a phone or a computer or something that distracts you, you are like... some percentage I won't make up and I'll just be honest that I don't know it, but like a very high percentage less likely to get involved with anything happening around you. Wow.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I mean, very rarely. It's not like I wouldn't call that. It's not a thing. It's just that's like my secret sneak away once in a while. I think you're in denial. I know. What's your big reveal?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
So they're in an Apple store. So it's probably like weird noise, weird noise. Go back to playing Yahtzee with friends or whatever on your phone.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And especially in that area. Yeah. No, it's a weird thing. I'm sure they had never had any experience like that. No. And they probably were like, oh, no, those girls are fighting next door at the end. That's what they thought. It's just unfortunate because even just a call to say, maybe you should just go check. It's that thing of like people aren't willing to just risk being wrong, which is sad.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Or not being able to read a situation. I mean, the way a couple of these articles talked about it, there was like extended thumping and fight sounds.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
At one point, they heard a woman scream, oh, please, God, help me. What?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Oh my God. All right, so yeah, go on. Yeah. That's crazy. So even if you're not sure, roll the dice. Okay, so from that, they realize that these employees only heard two women the entire time. They don't hear anything about men's voices. They don't hear anything else. So they're suspicious. Also, there's this really awesome statistic I found that I know the exact...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Number four, according to the Bureau of the Justice of Statistics.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
15%. That's crazy. So in some ways, relax.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
It's going to be your husband with that milkshake.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Yeah, everyone talks about the ones that happen because they're so crazy and weird. So it seems like they're more likely. That's really interesting. Yeah. So the cops know this. I mean, the cops, they say that all the time on like 2020 or whatever, where it's like you always look to the husband, the wife, the friends, the people that they know. So one of the big breaks in the case was...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
That they looked in Jaina's car and... Jaina's the murder victim? She's the victim. Okay. So they process her car and they find Brittany... Brittany's DNA in the car. And then they asked Brittany, have you ever been in Jaina's car? And she said no.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
But they never do because they were in the car, so they're trying to cover. They think that lie is going to get them out. And yeah, that's the greatest. I love that. So... Also, they realized they had had all the tests processed and Brittany had said that they were both raped by these masked men. But when the test came back, they there was no sign of rape on either.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
There was no, you know, evidence of it. Yeah, there was all of the normal things that they find. No penetration.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
On either of them. OK. And so. Also, her wounds were few and superficial. Right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And also because then that's like there's some crime of passion taking place.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
So there is an intended victim. Yes, exactly. Okay. and also then they realize that for the angles, they start studying the angles of the, of the wounds clearly self-inflicted and she tied herself up. It was all, they start looking back on it stage. Yeah. Now there were in the blood, there were two shoe prints. Jaina's shoe prints were not in the blood and,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
So Brittany's shoe pins were in the blood and a size 14 man's shoe, one set of men's shoes were in the blood. So not to like. So she grabbed some shoes off the fucking shelf. That's exactly right. Son of a bitch.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Well, it's that thing of like you are. you can't cover up a murder.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
You just can't. You're not as smart as you think you are. You can't. And also, cops have seen it a million times. Like, they know what they're looking at and what looks weird and what doesn't. So... Ultimately, they basically get her to start talking.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I feel like that's, I think people can, it helps people lock in. To our humanity. Yeah. When we're just sitting here going, you know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And it turns out, six days after the crime actually happened, it was the same night of Jaina's memorial, they arrest Brittany Norwood for first degree murder. And so basically they figure out that that that day Brittany had been caught shoplifting a pair of yoga pants by Jaina. And that's what caused that was the inciting incident.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Obviously, much more was going on for her to get stabbed over 300 times. And they said she used five different weapons all found within the store.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Yeah. And there was a blood trail that showed how Jaina tried to escape through the back door and... And she had 107 defensive wounds. And they said that that was the most that medical examiner had ever seen on a victim.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Now here's the creepiest part to me is Brittany goes, clearly just goes fucking berserk snaps. She gets caught. Now she's in that she's out of this system. She has, she's the worst of the worst. If you're bad for drinking diet Coke on the floor, imagine what getting caught shoplifting would be like in that culture at that store.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And also, I don't think it was probably very easy because Brittany was black. And I don't know what the percentages were of people who were black that worked at Lululemon. But I bet that was an element in it. I'm sure that there was something that brought to the table. There was other articles that talked about how she had stalked her boyfriend.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I think she was definitely maybe a borderline personality. She definitely had some issues, whatever. But this girl viciously and insanely murders her coworker and then lays down in blood for hours and hours until she gets discovered. Crazy. In the same room as a dead body. I mean, that's the creepy level of that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Oh, and also she went and moved because when she called Jaina back to let her back into the store, Jaina was double parked. So she had to go get into her car and she went and parked it down like a couple blocks away. And that's how they got that DNA of hers in there. So essentially she had 10 hours to stage and plan this crime and figure it all out. Um, so anyway, she was convicted in an hour.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And make it a podcast. Gross. It better be a podcast. I don't want to look at it. We're getting a lot of, it's very enjoyable. And of course, feeding the ego. A lot of people are doing like fan art. picture things of us, which the thing I enjoy the most is they always give me a huge nose. I don't think I have a huge nose.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Um, they tried to say that she was insane and they were like, no, sorry, this was insanely premeditated. Yeah. I mean, that's bad phrasing. Uh, this was very premeditated and obviously... She tried to cover it up so she knew it was a... Yes. Yes, exactly. Um, and... I guess. Oh, so she was, she got a life sentence and with no possibility of parole.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
So it turned out that the Lululemon murder was much more fascinating than I could ever imagine.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
know as grisly as hell yeah and just that the element like the the pressury sales sorority sister element of it is fascinating to me um somebody there's a guy that wrote a book his name is david morse and it's called the this is gonna be wrong i want to say it's called the yoga pants murder but that's not gonna be right the yoga store murder there we go so close Are there crime scene photos?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
They wanted to show the crime scene photos when they were trying to pick the jury. Was it when they were trying to pick the jury? I guess that doesn't really make sense. But they were basically trying to introduce these photos and like the defense fought it because they're so awful. Her skull was cracked. Her spine was severed. Oh, I don't want to see that. I mean, it's terrible.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I mean, you know, she was stabbed over 300 times. It's insane. It's horrifying. Holy shit. Yeah. So there you go. Namaste.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
No case updates. Basically, it's all status quo. Although we got to the bottom of kitchen parties. So that was the thing that we talked about. It was a Lululemon kind of like alley rally style. Let's all get together, you know, like some sort of retail bullshit cult thing that they make up to make it seem interesting. And then you get people to whatever.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
No, no, this was a different. This was almost like a little bit of a manipulation of the customers. So essentially there are these islands near the fitting rooms and the employees were expected to just kind of hang out there and then stage casual conversations like you're in the kitchen, quote unquote. And basically talking about yoga pants or like, oh, you need that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I can actually recommend you this great jacket or whatever.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Yes. The retail PTSD of like being forced to engage when people don't like it and are rude to you actively. Right. Really sucks. It's like if you're the greeter at the Gap this day, I wonder if they still do greeters. I don't think they do. Yeah, I don't think so.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
For them? Oh, yeah. I bet you better. Like you have to eyes up.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
But you don't have to stand there like we used to have to literally stand there and be like, socks are on sale today and blah, blah, blah. Like that whole thing where you're like having this hip interaction with the person you're about to buy jeans from. It's just like... Who cares?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Can I help you find anything today? No. In this day and age, doesn't the average customer really know their rights in the way of like they're going to find you and let you know the kind of help they need? Like no one's shy anymore about this. And that's, I'm going to say it again, but that's my big complaint about Sephora. I just want to go and touch all the eyeshadows and look at all the samples.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
You have a cute little button nose. I mean, thank you. I just wanted you to say that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I don't want to, I don't want someone to help me. Because oftentimes they're like, oh, you need that? Well, then come over here. And I'm like, no, I'm over here. I want to be in this area.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
That's right. Hot bath of a Sephora. Anyway, also the old founder, or I guess the original founder who's no longer involved in the business of Lululemon.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
is a man named Chip Wilson, who has just been spouting pretty nasty rhetoric for years, and so much so that the company had to come forward and say that his views don't represent the company's values, and that they are committed to creating an inclusive environment in that company. So hopefully that's true, and hopefully that actual work is getting done, but...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And also, you know, the information I was looking for that could have been really cool to like unveil right now is that they also change their internal practices and they don't make everything feel like this weird club that you're trying to get into while you have a retail job.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Which was one of the things we talked about of like what the pressures and what this job must have felt like. to result in this horrifying murder. But still, there's no way to get that information unless we had a secret employee, which we don't. It'd be so cool. We should have done that. Although they no longer ask their employees to pursue shoplifters, which is insane that they ever did that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Never do that. No. Never do that. Okay, now it's time for Georgia's story about Tent Girl and the Doe Network.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
But thank you. But you know what? But thank you. We're the most ungrateful assholes of all time. We have a couple notes.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
What?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Doe as in deer?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Oh, oh, oh.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
There's some really good ones of us. Really awesome drawings.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Where like you look at it and go, oh, my God, this looks like we have a comic book. Yeah. Which is super cool.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Thank you so much. You're fucking backpedaling so hard right now.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
They won't fall into that category for you.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
We post all of them. We post everything that we see and find that you guys send us. I love it all. A lot of people made us new logos that say the fuck word murder mystery show, which we really love and appreciate. That was so great. That was good times. Yeah. And also, I just wanted to mention on the Twitter page, we got a quote, a million shout outs from Sweden.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
He was an accountant. Was he an accountant? Did he work at REI?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I mean, did they... Karen, don't question.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
No, I just meant like at the time when they found her, did they take that tarpulin or whatever it's called? evidence and then go interview some carnival workers. See what local carnival is in town. And then it could that be the third season of True Detective, this story of like the carnies.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
We can discuss it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
These guys who have a podcast called The Power Meeting Podcast sent us a tweet that said a million shout outs from Sweden, which I didn't know until I read it that that's all I've ever wanted in my life. That's so sweet. A million shout outs from Sweden. Also, Australia loves us. Fuck yeah, Australia. We were number five in Australia. That's amazing. That's a big place, right?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Well, yeah, but it's like the tragedy that something good came out of.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
It's very cool. I know. And also it's nice that idea that like, yeah, that's if you have... It's just so nice for the families. Like that idea of just not knowing is so torturous.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And if you have that specific ability of like you can draw a picture of what they last looked like or whatever, it's like everybody pitching in what their specific talent is.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Yeah, that's very cool.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Yeah. Nice. So that was a short one, but I thought it was important. No, that was cool. I like that it's good information. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I like that you just said, gosh, gosh, it's nice you listen, everybody.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
They must not be about accuracy down there. Because I feel like everything I've ever said about Australia on this podcast has been deeply wrong.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
We're back. Georgia, are there updates for this case?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Amazing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
If you're a person that's interested in true crime, that is an incredible way to actually, you know, do something constructive with this interest and interact and help people out.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
You were helping other funky divas in your area. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And here's your other motto is Namaste Sexy, which is the title of this episode.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Yeah, that's right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
That's right. And then Georgia said, gosh, it's nice. That's so funny. Gosh, it's nice. Because we were thanking listeners for listening to the show. And she said, gosh, it's nice having you guys listen. Was that sarcastic?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Because there's some good ones there. There are some amazing ones. Yours was it was the son who washed his clothes before he did anything. Yeah, he murdered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
If I was listening right now, I'd turn this off. Stay sexy.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
No, I think it was Australia. Watch the numbers plummet.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Why did I even bring this up? I don't know. I brought it up. Oh, okay. This is all your fault. Oh, also, we got a tweet from GlitterPizza91, God bless your heart, that said, why not at the end of every murder, why don't you ring a gong? Which I read out of context, just read as a random tweet, and it made me laugh very hard.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Then I understood, I saw a bunch of other tweets that said, what's that noise? What's that creepy, spooky noise that we keep hearing? And it was, we got, Stephen set us up with these awesome... Mic stands. Yeah, they look like what you see like real radio people using. So we don't have to like touch our mics and make noise anymore.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
But what we did was we touched the mic stands and we were making the springs.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Right? Is that super loud?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Well, we really appreciate it. Thank you. I'm going to speak for everybody.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Yes. I mean, I think it's just weird to be in this position where you can actually put something out, have people buy it and then actually give money. That's like a neat, cool thing. But also we've never done it before. So everything feels wrong and bad and weird.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Okay. We watched the trailer at work today. I love the people I work with because they're super into shit like this too. And when it got to the part... Trailer spoiler. When it got to the part... Where they have reconstructed the Ramsey's house. The room by room recreated. Down to the detail of shit that was like leaning against the walls. Life changing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
These people are going, these investigators, these very qualified people. From all walks of life.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
criminal forensicness yeah criminality criminality they're gonna be able to walk through and talk about and restage things that happened do you think they'll come to a conclusion it clearly what in the trailer you can tell that they're gonna they're like yeah there was no this is not an outside job motherfuckers i mean that's what they're leading you to believe that's true but
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I still don't hear it. Do you know? But I feel like that's almost like one of those ghost investigation.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
They're like, do you hear it? And then they put the subtitles and you're like, I guess I hear if you want me to hear it, I'll hear it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I'll hear whatever you want.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
My thing was because everybody at my job, everybody pointed out like the thing that freaked them out or that they like the most. And mine was that when Patsy Ramsey said, I love that child, she did it with her eyes closed. That was the creepiest part is both of them being, both of them speaking was so fucking eerie. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And to camera, like basically clearly some lawyers said, you have to go out there and tell these people you didn't kill your daughter and you have to make a statement. And when Patsy Ramsey said, I didn't kill my daughter. And then she closes her eyes and goes, I love that child. And then they stay closed forever. Like to me that I just love those. Like that means something.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I don't know what it means. Also saying that child means something. Cause it's like, she's not saying my daughter, JonBenet. Yeah. It's like not child.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Did you ever watch the show Lie to Me with Tim Roth, where it was all about the person that read micro expressions and it was like a whole company?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Oh, yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I just love that show because that's kind of stuff of like being able to interpret what people are really doing underneath how they mask it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
You're so fucking punk rock, Georgia. I swear to God, you're just like... Are you being mean right now? No. I mean it in that way of like, you're just like, you know what? I don't have to like it if you like it. It's a good way to be. I respect it. But I think that's what it is where you're like, does everybody like it? Then everybody can fuck off. Well, what everyone's telling me about it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Right. You know what? I feel the same way because I find, and this is going to blow your mind, I find prison to be really depressing. So I don't want to know. What's wrong with you? I fear going there. Who hurt you as a child? I don't.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
I didn't learn to be polite for nothing. It's like, I mean, and it is like we talk a lot. We talk a big game about like, send them away. Because we talk about these specific stories where people cut off 15 year old girls arms and leave them to die. And these horrible cases. And of course, you want Larry Singleton to disappear from the planet.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
but the reality of a human being in a prison is a nightmare. And like, and so I'm not saying I'm not a hypocrite or that I can't rectify those two things, but it's yeah. Watching it. What I love it that in that show is that they're laying in, it's just really good writing. And I really like to watch good writing. It may, it makes me feel smart. And again, I'll say it for the millionth time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
Riz Ahmed. I don't,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
But it just didn't sound like that. No, it's literally the most... Not cute kind of disgusting thing, but that's not what you meant.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
And it happens. And we all know what happens. And it's incredibly stressful.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
All right. But I like it. It's to me, it's worth the stress. And there's things that are happening that are exciting.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 31: Namaste Sexy
All right. I think that's it, right? Are you in? Is there anything you need to talk about? I got nothing. Yeah. Is this, are we now 45 minutes in?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Yeah, clearly. I mean, you're taking true precautions and then hurting yourself in the process.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
I mean, I can relate. I think that's very relatable. Also, I think we were doing a lot of those kinds of, okay, strangers are sending us big boxes. We just got to go with God on this one and like play along. And I have to say this, we've been doing this for almost nine years. We've been given a lot of amazing gifts, a lot of hilarious gifts, a lot of downright weird gifts. Mm-hmm.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
And I maybe shouldn't be saying this, but we've never gotten a scary gift. No, I've never felt threatened by a gift, except that doll that had the happy face and the sad face. But the person who gave it to us... It was hilarious. It was hilarious. And God, I wish I could remember her name, but also knew that that's what they were doing. We needed it. Yeah. It was great.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
And do you remember we sent it to a listener? Yes. Someone won it. Who has that? If you won the scary Two-Face doll, please send us an email of how your life has been going since it entered your home.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Amazing. Check that out. Yeah. And also, we talked about The Devil in the White City, and we got so excited because the movie was supposed to come out nine years ago. It's never come out, but all the same people are still attached. And it is essentially, it's Leonardo DiCaprio, and I think it's supposed to maybe be Scorsese. I can't remember. But it's a famously cursed project now. Shut up.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
I want... I want it. But I want it. It's like that idea. I just saw a TikTok on it and there's a shot. The opening TikTok, the opening picture of the TikTok was this, the scene from the statue's shoulder overlooking that big pond or lake or whatever they built in.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Yes. Yes, exactly. For the World's Fair. But they built it like it was all white. It's an incredible looking thing that like I got to actually see this one picture that I was like, oh, my God. And then, of course, the Ferris wheel.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
And I'm making that up. I think it's true. I think it's true. I bet you it was. I wonder if Vine had even been shut down. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Like Vine walked so that TikTok could run. Remember when we were Vine stars? Were we? No, I don't know. We could make that up. Pat Walsh was a Vine star.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Yeah, he was. Oh, that's so cute. He would get on there and sing little songs like, all the girls are going to a pizza party. Yeah, Vine. Okay. Legendary. So let's now, as we always do on this podcast, take a left turn because... This episode is horrible. It's horrifying. It's child murder abuse. This is basically a listener warning, but it's not just about child murder.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
It involves brutal child abuse.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
I get time. This is being done in the past. I can't believe it. Before you start your new year, which is going to be incredible, by the way. What a year it's going to be for you. It's going to be. But before we go into the future, let's let us drag you into the past.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
I mean, I think about it all the time where, and we've talked about it a lot, but it's like growing up on quote unquote true crime and the way the media used to treat it was normal to us. That's just how it was.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Salvy stories. Killer-centric. Yeah. Just kind of pop culture-y. And so us coming in from that stance in 2016, looking back now and looking back basically the whole time, it's just kind of like, why are we this disconnected? Why aren't we? And I mean, disconnected maybe isn't the right word, but it is like, yeah, you can hear us slowly starting to realize that
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Nothing is black and white, nothing is straightforward. And at the same time, like, oh, you know, the woman from your story later went on and got to tell her story. And it was a complete, like, flipped that kind of very singular media narrative that we learned and kind of went with when it happened. Right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Right. And in a way that it's embarrassing to go, oh, I never, I didn't really think of the victim's family, but no one really did in a forthright way that we could have copied. Yeah. Like everyone now gets to copy everybody else that caught up and is doing better and doing better. Right. Because of course, all of our anonymous internet friends have logged on to say do better. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Many, many times.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Okay. Okay. You're right. You're right. We'll do our best.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Hey, do you want to talk about our favorite murders? We might as well. Skippers, come back to us. It's time. I think you're first. Is it me? I think so. The murder that I chose this week. Yes, Karen. And my favorite murder is one that's always it's been one that like the first time I read it, I couldn't I would have to turn my eyes away from the page.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Because it is horrible and horrifying, but also like there's an underpinning of salaciousness to it that I thoroughly enjoy. It's about Mary Bell, the child, child killer. Fuck. Yeah. The childhood child killer. Yes. Now, what I realized in looking through my researchers, my research searches today, I mean, from weeks ago. Right. For when all that research you've been. Just piles and piles.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Every night I go to the city library like Morgan Freeman and I let the guy play.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Yes. I go down in the basement where the very old dead ghost librarian is. Microfiche is involved. You scroll microfiche. Just for hours. Hours. Um, so in the pictures of Mary Bell, which we should put up on the Instagram page. I will. That's what I look like when I was little. Exactly. So I've always had a bit of a connection to Mary Bell. Uh, In, in certain ways.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
But I also know, and we got called out, um, I think it was on, I can't remember the woman, the girl's name, but the girl that shot up the, the school. Oh my God.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
That girl, we kind of got, there's a couple people who are like, we were being too sympathetic to her or being like too nice when normally we're mean. If it's like a man and it's older, we're mean and like, hang him high. I don't disagree with that. I know. I mean, everyone has a lot to say about every single thing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Well, I brought it up because I was thinking, is that how I'm going to be about Mary Bell? But the truth is, I honestly believe that Mary Bell is a psychopath. I think she anytime she seems sympathetic, it's because she's trying to seem sympathetic. Right. I think she is like I think she's nightmare. Like we need to talk about Kevin. Yeah. The bad seed. She's the reality of all of that fiction.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Evil child. Right. Like nothing can be done. Now, I think there's a reason she's that way. I don't she may have been born that way because they do talk about how she from an early age, like didn't bond, but she had this fucking crazy mother. Either way, to me, I'm I'm just want to say it at the start. I'm not defending her. I'm not defending Maribel.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
investigating the past of the person who's killing people that doesn't exonerate them from, but I think sometimes, you know, when it's personal opinion, which is all, all of this podcast is sometimes more empathy will come out. Even if you have it, you won't express it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
I just want to say July 21st in mid to late July in Los Angeles is a pretty warm time. Yeah. We were still in your apartment with no air conditioning. That's correct. I'm not saying that to you accusatorily. No, I love it. It's my roots. I mean, but that's all I can think of when I think of like these, when I look at these and I'm like, oh yeah, that's right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Like I don't have a ton of empathy for Richard Ramirez, even though he did get hit in the swing and he had the worst uncle in the world.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Yes. And for me, that's what's interesting to me. When it's not just, oh, you were born with this defect where you do not have mirror neurons and you do not empathize with other human beings. That's one thing. But if there's a little path you could have been normal, if you didn't experience this parent or this aunt or whatever, it's some awful pit that you fell in in your childhood. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
To me, that's like, that's really what's fascinating. That's the study. That's the study.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Yeah. And the cause is fascinating. Right. And if I had A, an education, B, didn't have ADD, I would probably read up on it a ton and become some type of a...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
of a learned expert about it me too and instead instead i have i work in tv so i am rewarded for not paying attention and also but we do have a true crime podcast so i think we're good i think we're basically doing that uh yeah yeah we're doing our best anyhow sorry go on uh no Um, so I've, I've always found Mary Bell fucking fascinating. So this happened in 1968.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Yeah. And it happened in new, in the inner city suburb of Newcastle in England. That's Stephen King's town, right? No, no, no. In England. Nevermind. Okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Castle Rock it's Castle Rock oh yeah Castle Rock's the yeah he's all about Maine can we just strike all of that from the record yes absolutely we're gonna go in and edit this down so good um we're not no we're not at all and we never do um okay so she was born to a unwed unstable 17 year old sex worker uh named Betty McCricket um
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
And Betty used to leave her daughter with relatives and acquaintances, just dumped her off anytime she could because she had to go. I guess she would go into Glasgow a lot and work as a sex worker.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Nightmare. Nightmare. It's just, it's what a great opportunity for a ton of bad decisions. Like this one where she once gave Mary to a woman she met on the street outside an abortion clinic. Shut up. Yeah. Betty was doing it. So apparently their household was filthy and sparsely furnished. And Betty's family members said that Betty tried to kill Mary more than once in her first few years of life.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
And then I'm like, I was having a great time and sweating my ass off. We were sweating.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
And tried to make it look accidental. Yeah. So they all became very suspicious when Mary, quote unquote, fell out a window. Head trauma. Possibly. And also when she accidentally consumed sleeping pills. What the fuck? So they think she could have definitely gotten brain damage because she had sleeping pills, iron pills.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
And apparently Mary, sorry, Betty would feed the pills to Mary and tell them they were candy.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
There are some people who now say that they think Betty probably had Munchausen's by proxy, which is the fascinating disease where a parent gets addicted to the attention and sympathy that they get from a sick child. And so they make the child sick on purpose. It's basically what happened in the movie Seven when the barfing girl finally brings him back to her house. That's a great scene.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
um no not seven fucking we both you're like the other number movie the sixth sense our brains are syncing up because that was just oh you know what's so hilarious yeah we're we're it's like our mistake brains are like no no no I did the same thing where when I was talking about the poly class murder, I called it, I called it Cloverfield, which is a movie.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
And the city name where her body was found is Cloverdale. And Adrian, my friend. The whole time you called it that? Yeah. But I think I only said it once. Adrian texted me and she's like, dude, it's Cloverdale. You, you went there for softball games. What are you doing? And I was just like, she's like, I'm the only one that noticed. But seriously, it's Cloverdale. This is not a monster movie. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
grow up maybe you were just trying to protect the town so people like so looky-loos wouldn't show up there that's right that's what you were doing just stay away from cloverfield um so bad news obviously and in her upbringing um and so of course at school mary was known as a on occasion would voice her desire to hurt people. She did a lot of kicking and punching and lying.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
And so all the kids, they would make fun of her a lot because she was just basically a monster and a mess. And Later on, it is trying to figure out where when a good but basically later on, it came to be discovered that Mary's mother would use her and sell her in prostitution as well from the age of four. So she I guess this is another thing that does fascinate me.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
This is another thing that like that kind of trauma can affect you and does affect your personality. So she was subjected to really awful things at such a young age that they think that that that probably plays into the psychopathy and the behavior.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
world world nothing is safe i need to fucking defend myself and i want to start hurting others the way i'm being hurt and it's a way that's normal it's the way children yeah it's the way children communicate that they're being hurt right when they're no they know they're not allowed to talk about it right um fascinating totally okay so on may 25th uh 1968 two boys playing in an abandoned house found the corpse of four-year-old martin brown lying in an upstairs room
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Fireworks in a tinderbox of a city. That's just like dry wood-based insanity. And we were so traumatized by the week before. That's right. When we had those.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Mary Bell and her friend Norma Bell, who was not related to her, they just had the same last name, followed the boys inside the house. And when the police arrived, the two girls had to be ordered out. So they really liked looking at this dead body. How old were they? Mary was just about to turn 11, and Norma Bell was 13, but Mary was the dominant of the two, like a little more mature and smart.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
There was no obvious cause of death, so it was assumed that Martin Brown had swallowed pills from a discarded bottle, which was found nearby. Mm-hmm. So the next day, Norma Bell's father caught Mary choking Norma and he slapped her face and sent her home. He's choking. She was choking her so bad. Holy shit. The day after this little boy died.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
So four days later, Mary Bell appeared at the Brown residence asking to see Martin. And when she was reminded that Martin was dead. Wait, she showed up? She showed up at the dead boy's house asking to see him. And when the adult that answered the door reminded her that Martin was dead, it was the mother that answered the door. And when the mother said, he's dead, Mary said, oh, I know he's dead.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
I want to see him in his coffin.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Yeah. Who's. Yeah. OK, so two months later, three year old Brian Howe goes missing and a median search is mounted. And Mary Bell tells Brian's sister that he might be playing on a heap of concrete blocks that had been dumped out in a nearby vacant lot. Um, and which is where he was discovered dead from manual strangulation, legs and stomach and penis mutilated with a razor and a pair of scissors.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
The police discover at the scene, the letters M and N were scratched into his stomach. So as the investigation narrows, Mary, uh, So so somebody that had been walking by said they saw kids around that pile of stones that day. And then when they took the three year old's body into the corner, he said, it looks like he's strangled.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
But it's such light force that I think we're looking at a child murderer. So then the cops went around and started interviewing all the kids in the neighborhood. And Mary and Norma were both dinged right away because their stories kept changing. Mary acted super weird. They got freaked out by how creepy and weird she was. And Norma couldn't stop giggling. Holy shit. Um,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
So Mary, when the investigation got narrowed on to Mary Bell, she suddenly remembered seeing an eight year old boy with Brian on the day he died. And she said that the boy hit Brian for no reason and that she said that same boy had been playing with broken scissors. Right. But she was naming a specific boy. She was basically trying to pin it on him. But he had been at the airport that afternoon.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Oh, fuck. And so the thing that Mary didn't know is that the scissors were confidential evidence. No one knew about the scissors. Oh, Mary. That wasn't public.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
You can't keep your shit in line. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
dude yeah so baffling she essentially implicates herself uh with the scissor comment and she had described them exactly so she's trying to pin it on the other boy yeah and in doing so she's like they were silver colored and some there was something wrong with them like one leg was either broken or bent so she basically describes the exact scissors to a t i mean smart smart uh
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
We have more power than we realize. And it feels great. Doesn't it, though? Here in 2025. Okay. Are you ready? It's the Rewind episode. Now we all get to be day one listeners. So let's listen to the intro of episode 26. Okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
And can you imagine sitting in an, in a room across from an 11 year old girl when you see this picture of, big blue eyes, little button nose, kind of vacant. Just think baby Karen, but just think baby Karen. I was precious lamb, but she's lying to you. So you're buying her at first and then she gives, she does the old inglorious bastards holding up a three and you don't even want it to be true.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
creepy enough that the coroner says you're probably going to want to look for a kid because a kid strangled a three-year-old so you probably don't want it to be true you probably have children of your own and this little girl is like yeah the scissors i mean the chill that would go down your back so so uh okay i did the slidey thing again which i always do so
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Um, Brian Howe was buried on August 7th and the, the investigative detective was named detective Dobson and he was there and he says, Mary Bell was standing in front of the house house when the coffin was brought out. I of course was watching her and it was when I saw her there that I knew I did not dare risk another day. She stood there laughing, laughing and rubbing her hands. Um,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
I thought, my God, I've got to bring her in or she'll do another one. Holy shit. So they bring in Mary Bell.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
No, because I'm picturing it. And it's like how they why don't they make this movie? It's the creepiest thing of all time. Seriously. This is like the ring. Except for the girl has her hair back out of her face. And she's like... She thinks she's getting away with it. She wanted to kill that little kid. She killed him. And then she wanted to see his dead body get carried out of the house.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Or she enjoyed the feeling so much that she had done it. She, you know, because there was some killer that we talked about where they said, I want people to feel on the outside the way I feel on the inside.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Was that the one of those Cheshire murders? Yeah. No. Or was it the person you talked about last week?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
This is a factual corner. This is fact-based. It's that thing of, like, when you finally feel right in the world is when... Like, that's how she felt right. She killed... She had the power to take his life away and put him in that box. She finally had power.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Let's start right now. Fireworks. Baby, you're a fireworks.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Because... This is where it gets crazy. Oh, my God. This is where? This is where... Well, this is where it shows that she was raised by two criminals because her mother ended up marrying... I think his name was Billy Bell and he was like a career criminal. And so they clearly talked about being arrested, going in and out of jail and all this stuff.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Cause when she's arrested, first of all, when they say you're going to be charged with murder, she said, that's all right by me. Um, and, uh, she, she, sorry. When she was in jail, um, There was a stray cat in jail. Oh, fuck. Elvis, cover your ears. Yeah, Elvis, you're not going to like this. She grabbed the cat tightly by the neck and the guard told her not to hurt the cat.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
And Mary allegedly replied, oh, she doesn't feel that in any way. I like hurting little things that can't fight back. In another incident, a policewoman said that Mary said she'd like to be a nurse, quote, because then I can stick needles into people. I like hurting people.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Mm hmm. So there was kind of a naive quality about it. Then also, the jailers, once she was in there, she calmed down a little bit after a while, and a lot of the jailers liked her. The guards, you know, because they said she was very smart. She was very sharp. But she was a chronic bedwetter. Oh. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
And she's got one of the pieces, probably two if we count those being overdosed on drugs by your mother. And dropped out of a... And dropped out of a window. Sure. Probably got two.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Was the other one fires? Fire, yeah. Okay. No report of fire on her. But she was terrified of going to sleep because she was afraid she was going to wet the bed. And she said to one of the guards, I usually do. Um, and at home, her mother would humiliate her anytime she wet the bed. So she would rub her daughter's face in the pee when she found it. And she would, um, hang the mattress outside.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
So the neighborhood would see it. So when they went to trial, Norma was acquitted of all charges and Mary was convicted of two counts of manslaughter. So I think it, uh, they say that Norma was there. Norma had like eight brothers and sisters or some huge family and their whole family was there supporting her. And she did a lot of crying on the stand and saying, Mary did it. Mary did it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
And Mary did the same thing or saying Norman did it. But all she had was her lunatic mother who was wearing a blonde wig and would freak out so much and cry and do all these things that her wig would fall off. Um, And then she would get up and run out of the courtroom and then come back. And so because of that Munchausen's by proxy, like this was her drama.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
She was basically, you know, say in the very slight chance that Mary wasn't guilty, she was condemning her anyway because no one had sympathy for that family. Whereas everyone was like, oh, this little girl's just been set up by Mary Bell. Yeah. And then in the tabloids, Mary Belby just became just the face of evil for years and years.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
They didn't have anywhere to put her because they had never had to deal with sending an 11-year-old girl to jail. So there was like lots of places for juvie for little boys, but none for little girls. So they had to keep her. They kept her in like a separate quarters place. in a, in a boys detention center for a long time until she was in her teens.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
When she was in her teens, she escaped jail for a little while with two other boys, but then they, then they were only gone for two weeks and then they went back. She spent, um, uh, up until her, uh, Like, I can't find it now. I think it was like in her mid-20s in jail. And then when she got out, all of England was like freaking out. They were super pissed.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
You're fine. Sorry. It was very, very scary. Surprising. And to me, funny. It's hilarious. It keeps happening, though. So it might happen again tonight.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
She made money off a book that someone wrote about her. Again, they were like, we need to pass laws, you know, whatever. She got out and then what? She ended up becoming a grandmother, like a mother and a grandmother. She got pregnant. I don't think she got married. And then she was... Did she change her name? There was they passed a thing where they kept her.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Yeah, she's she now lives under a pseudonym. Right. And they like the British people wanted that repeal. They wanted to make her live as herself. Oh, but they they whatever they continued the ruling that she could live under a pseudonym for the rest of her life.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
I know. I mean, like, that's like the other media training that we have, which is kind of like, this is, now we get the 15-year update, the 30-year update, like, whatever. But no, the adult Mary Bell and her daughter remain anonymous. They're protected under an order from the UK's high court, so I think that's all good.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
I mean, I was talking to Alison Agassi, our writer, about this story and how, like, this child was raised with a mother who was actively trying to kill her all the time and horribly abusing her. And then it's like... And it's just mind-blowing to be like that. If that's your perspective and that's how you get treated, we can't know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
It's hard to imagine because we take for granted that we were picked up and held and cared for and looked in the eyes. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Right, which is, I think, kind of a common thread in all these stories. Right. You can't consistently hurt a child and think that that child should just be resilient and, hey, they're kids, they'll get over it. Like, it doesn't work that way.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Also, they're tools that you're just getting, like, and then as you grow up, you later, when you realize that of like, oh, I don't need this anymore. It can be like shameful or embarrassing, but it's like, but that's just the human experience. It's like, you just do it until you know better.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
It helps. Well, also, I had that realization about five years ago where it's like, oh, that's right. Stand-up comedy and wanting to be a comedian was a coping mechanism. Right. What? What? I could have just been like a marine biologist like I wanted to.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Okay. Oh, this guy. This story. We have to now go into, I think we talked about it at the time. I think we have talked about it multiple times since. I will say it now. Potentially one of the most nightmarish, horrible human story ever. Just absolutely terrible. George is about to cover the death of Lisa Steinberg. What's your favorite murder of the week?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
I tried to put a thunder shirt on George one time. Yeah. And when I came home, it was eaten.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
I hope that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
It was like ripped to shreds and parts were gone.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Which we'll get into in a bit. Don't do drugs. If you're going to do drugs, don't adopt children, stupid motherfuckers.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
So it wasn't his intent to murder her when he did kill her. Right. Jesus Christ. Breathing, breathing, breathing, breathing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
We're here in 2016 and not in 80s New York in this horrible apartment.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
I just remembered as you were describing her appearance, there was an amazing article in Oprah's magazine that she, Hedda Nussbaum, wrote. Well, she wrote a book. Did she? Yeah. I bet that was just publicity then. And it was just an excerpt from the book.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
It's just the side by side of her when she was young, when she first met him. And when she was arrested is, she looks like an old witch.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
And she was this gorgeous young New York woman. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
God, is it seven years?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
If you're one of those rando people that just goes through iTunes and picks different podcasts and hits play. No one's ever done that, right? No, I seriously doubt it. But welcome if you're that one person and if you're the lone wolf. Hi. Hi. And if you're new to this. I'm Georgia. That's Karen. I'm Karen. This is my voice. Karen was the one singing. I do that because it's my passion.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
You killed a kid. He wasn't a good father. Yeah. He was a rotten father and husband. That's insane.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
I mean, there's a lot of ways that we can offend people in this. But here's... This is my stance because I remember... The wanting money is like such... The wanting money is bullshit. Yeah. Because you... I understand that she was in an abusive relationship. I also understand that she was a drug addict, which is a lot of people don't have empathy for that. I do.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
And I understand that you go into a place that is inexplicable and indefensible a lot of the time. Yes. You don't ask for money for doing that. You make reparations. You fix your life. You make your amends. You clear away the wreckage of your past. You don't ask to be paid for the thing you fucked up.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
It's her passion and she's good at it. And I'm not. I disagree. That I'm bad at that. I'm bad. You disagree that you're good at it. I disagree that you're bad at it. Thank you. Because I've heard you do it jokingly and it's not bad.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Well, it's just ignorance. I mean, like, it's not, I don't think you and I have ever pretended to be anything we're not. And so when we were having those kinds of conversations, it's literally just, and I think why people like this podcast, we're just regular people that are like sharing our kind of like, oh, I guess this is what I think about this.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
And I think that's why listeners like it because then they literally can be like, here's what I think about it. And here's why your answer either delights me or disgusts me.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
And then it's like, oh, right. What are we doing? Like, we're doing critical thinking together. Yeah. I mean, we got... I remember us getting follow-up stuff about Hedda Nussbaum and really good information that was like... It really did feel like the beginning of... bigger picture, more to consider. It's not just you and I sitting in your apartment chatting.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Really quick. Did I ever tell you about Adrienne's mother-in-law and J.C. Dugard? No. Okay. I'll try to make this as fast as possible. Adrienne, my sister's friend Adrienne. Yeah. Who she's also my friend. That's now the longer title that she has. Her mother-in-law, Pushpa, is this brilliant woman who... She's the teacher? She is. No, that's my sister.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Wasn't Adrienne's mom the English teacher? That's Adrienne's mom, Judy. Oh, who are you talking about? Her mother-in-law. Oh, got it. Okay. Pushpa. Pushpa. And Pushpa was a parole officer. Oh. Oh. In that area. And that's a big deal in the story. It's a big deal. Because Pushpa got sent to that house. And she went back and said, something's not right. They wouldn't let me in the front door.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
She actually tried to look over their shoulder. He was like at the front door, wouldn't let her look inside. Then she went around, even though he was like, no, no, it's all fine. So then she went around and peeked over the fence. Yes. Saw the tarps. Yes. went back to work and was like, you got to go in there. Something's wrong there, blah, blah, blah. And they were like, we don't have any cause.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
They basically didn't listen to her. And, you know. You've got to be a nosy neighbor. Well, and also like that kind of thing where it's like, especially that specific situation where she was held there for so long. It's so awful. And like the idea of at any point something could have changed. And it was just like somebody on the other end being like, it's not that big of a deal. Right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Pushpa is the one where when Nora was like five years old, Pushpa asked her what she wanted to be when she grew up. And Pushpa is Sri Lankan. And Nora was like, I want to be a cheerleader. And Pushpa goes, don't be a cheerleader, be a doctor. Yeah. So we say that to Nora all the time. She will be. You fucking know it. I think it worked. I think it worked on her.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
I think like just being able to accept that you have blind spots, not that you're bad for them, not that it means anything except for that you're a human being, but just like The humility of going, yeah, I must. And I know I do. And the way I see the world is just that. The way I see the world is from my own experiences. And that's a very singular experience.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
It's a very... And also, you know, having the internet suddenly... Like the world was like, there's more than your experience. And here it is right here. And now you should have known this already. And like, it really was this very insane dividing line of like, all of a sudden there were people snapping their fingers being like, you should be smarter than this.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
And it's like, I know I should be smarter than this. Like, it's crazy. So yeah, those kinds of like, I could never imagine. Therefore, I don't even know You don't know what you don't know. You don't know what you don't know. Okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Okay, can I just explain this very quickly? So Georgia had a little pile of presents waiting for me when I got home to her apartment from work. This isn't my home. And it was like, I waited for you so we can open these up. We wanted to open them off air so it wouldn't take forever. Mm-hmm. And one of them I opened to because Georgia was slightly afraid they could be a bomb or something dangerous.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Yeah, the National Domestic Violence Hotline is free, confidential, available 24 hours a day, and it's 1-800-799-SAFE, 7233. So that's 1-800-799-SAFE.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Yeah, and if you have anything to give this New Year's, that would be amazing. I think that's an incredibly helpful charity to support. Definitely. Well, that was a heavy episode. Sure was. At least we ended it on a donation.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
So I'll go. I was like, I'll go ahead and take the hit. I mean, you're off camera talent. I can have the eye patch. All you need is your brain. And I would love for my teeth to be blown out so I can get some awesome veneers. So I did the first two and Georgia was like, I said, she picked up the third one and I said, do you want me to open that? And she was like, I can do it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
I'm not that insane or whatever it was you said. And then she went to open it and stabbed herself in the bare leg with a pair of scissors. And I have to tell you, as painful as I'm sure it is, it's also hilarious.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Instead of just when you look down and have a rando. That's the second time I said that word. And I've never really said it before at all. Interesting. What's going on? What teen boy am I trying to impress? When you look down and there's just a huge bruise for no reason? Where you're just like, does this mean I have blood cancer?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
When you're drunk, what I notice is that you seem to just enjoy every single thing that goes on. Yeah. You just have a big smile on your face and you think everything's kind of funny and like enjoyable. It seems like.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
get life better yeah which is like so unhealthy but well you have a good time maybe i'm not anxious maybe that's it maybe i'm amused and not anxious deep down under underneath yeah when you use beer to uncover your true personality well we got some oh my god amazing gifts we just had it like a baby july christmas dude What was that? That was someone slamming the door, but it sounded like a gun.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
That sounded like a half-firework to me. Yeah, it did. All right. Let me start. We got a beautiful card that's the sparkliest thing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
With a really funny, cute joke on the front and really great printing inside. Beautiful printing. The kind of printing I wish I could do, but I don't understand why that looks the way it does.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
I've never done it. It's from, this card is from Emily and she just said a bunch of lovely things and it was, it's basically a thank you card for our podcast, which is the cutest thing of all time. She was raised well. Girl. And she likes a card. We'd like to thank her parents for this card. Mr. And Mrs. Emily's parents. Right. Um, move on to the next one. Then we got from Candace.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
She sent us this really fucking rad hurt. She's going to start doing murder zines. And the first one is, uh, the murder zine is called the Matilda effect. And the first one is about Francis Glessner Lee. There's there are women in science scenes. Oh, I thought they were murder. No, they're women in science. Women in science zines. Sorry.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
But the first one is about a woman who... Did she want to be a cop? Did that card say?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Yeah. Wow. Cause those are the two things you like.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
You know what I did was I just assumed that Candace made a zine for all the things I like instead of what she's interested in women in science. This was, yeah, it was, it was specifically for me. Well, it is a true crime subject. Yes. Yes. And so fascinating. It's called The Nutshell... What's the documentary called? It's called The Nutshell Studies.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Please keep remaining to be a badass. Then we got this amazing puzzle... From Holly, she said, Karen and Georgia, thanks so much for sharing your favorite murders. I made a puzzle about mine. Thought you might like it. Like it? Yeah. We fucking lost our minds.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
It's a 3D puzzle of H.H. Holmes' murder castle in Chicago, which is the best thing of all time. So I think everybody probably knows, but if you just started liking true crime, H.H. Holmes, I think they're going to make the Devil in the White City movie with Leo DiCaprio.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
It's very cool. So anyway, she started off with H.H. Holmes' Murder Castle, which you can watch the movie. It's the best story ever. If you get creeped out by premeditated planned psycho murder, this is the story for you. And I would do it, but they did it on last podcast on the left.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
It's been done a lot. It's been done a lot. And it's very well known and a movie is going to come out. So we let we let we it got taken care of.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
In our minds. And finally. Oh, my God. And then finally, Bethany, who made Bethany Jones. I'm assuming these people are OK with their names being said.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
So Bethany Jones is from the base element makeup bath and body. I would call it company. And she sent us her card says, I hope you like your namesake lipsticks. I loved creating them while listening to your podcasts. All of your podcasts, one after the other. I twitch. And fittingly, when I was done, my kitchen looked like a murder scene and I was smeared red to the elbows.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
I've got a bit rock and roll and made skull bath bombs in your honor to see what an inspiration you are. Stay sexy. Don't get murdered. It's so awesome. This box smelled. We could smell the bath bombs from outside.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
A soapy bomb.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
You were right. See, you're right all along. I'm psychic. But bombs can be good. Bombs can be good. So we just got a shit ton of lip gloss and lip balm and lip scrub and eyeshadow.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
We've got a lot of spice. At Rewind. At Rewind. This is our Wednesday episode, our new Wednesday episode, where we recap our old shows with new commentary, updates, and potentially retractions if necessary.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Fucking love this podcast. From Bethany. It's so cool. It's very cool. Thank you for our gifts. Totally worth it to open you up to danger. I know. And get that P.O. box. Hey, look, that's plenty of presents. That's plenty. I'm okay with the P.O. I talked to my therapist about it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
Then I get scared when you say that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six
sorry all right if you really really want to find it and if you actually have something that you're making that's like legit you can have the p.o box also there's 80 million ways to contact us so that you could probably say hey here's what i'm going to send you totally and here's a copy of my driver's license so that if i do harm you in any way right and now we have evidence contacted evidence it's all on the internet so that was present uh present that was present corner what we call present corner
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Amazing job, Sam Riegel. The most beautiful mug I've ever seen. It's very cool. And then this part is for if you are driving at night. Oh, yeah. Reflective. Okay, one more. Look at that. It's so beautiful.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
You have a tiny hot dog behind your back.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Oh, my God. This is a real tell your eight-year-old self that this is happening because this will blow your mind.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
So this is us.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
That's so funny. Dude. That is brilliant. And then here's the back. Should we hold those up? That is brilliant. I mean, because this is every Precious Moment picture. I mean, statue in everyone's grandma's house.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
I know. I know. It's really cool. Thank you guys so much. Thank you. Ceramicists. People who actually took the time and money. There are some boxes out there that we're like, oh, people had to spend a lot of money to ship these to us.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
And just so you know, if you shipped one to us, it's been sitting on a table in very prominent display with everybody looking at it and talking about it and looking at them, except for me and Georgia, for like months. Three weeks, Alejandra?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
I mean, we have.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
That's right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
No, we can't. Yeah. So we have to use it as much as we can this year. We better. It's pretty great. Also, we should actually just display this. It was shopped for.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
by brent talked about i watched them talk about the two choices alejandra picked one of two what of the silk reveal scarves oh that's the most important part i believe they're called schmata's by many people in productions i love a good schmata put the schmata over that keep it as a surprise pull the schmata off right
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Good job.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
To correct.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
So one of the most amazing things, and I think we may have talked about this a little, although I can't remember. But it did become a national news story was the way that the citizens of Los Angeles came together to basically provide for each other in one of the most beautiful outpourings of community and charity and just basically like love and giving that most of us have ever seen.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Yes.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
One of them started because there was some guys who were just like food cart guys. And they decided to go down to the Rose Bowl parking lot because they heard that's where a lot of the firemen for the Altadena fire were like they were centralized there. So they just four guys that have their own like hot dog carts went down there to cook for the firemen. Holy shit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
And then they put it on TikTok of like, oh, if you have donations to help us feed these firemen, you know, we'd love to get them or, you know, anything you want to do, come down here. which then turned into the Rose Bowl parking lot, like basically center where anyone could go to pick up clothes, supplies, diapers. It was like community action in a way that like I've never seen.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Yes, I do. It's like, hey, do you want to wear a dress that has polka dots and reminds you of your grandma? It's like, not right now. Not right now. Do you have any sweatpants? I need sweatpants. I need a sweatshirt and I need you to make me a bunch of hot dogs.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Yeah, that's right. And if you are watching this on YouTube, there should be a button that pops up where you, if you would like to donate to the LA Regional Food Bank, then there should be a button that pops up on this video and you can do that directly. It's lafoodbank.org. Yay. All right. We have a podcast network. It's called the Exactly Right Podcast Network. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Exactly right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Sure. And there's all kinds of podcasts on there. We like to tell you about some of the stuff that's going on.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
In their first episode, they talk about the 2018 remake of A Star is Born. They go into the age-old tradition of drinking on film. And, of course, their guest is comedian Shalewa Sharp, who is hilarious and talks for quite some time with them about the film trilogy Magic Mike. Oh, good. Because we need that. A lot of film gets discussed on this episode. It's a great premiere episode.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
It's really, really entertaining.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
I mean, it's so obvious. And also, I remember you making that point, and I wanted to, like, agree with you, but I kind of couldn't understand what you were saying.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
And it's your friend Millie Ducerco from I Saw What You Did. Yeah. And the producer of that podcast, Casey O'Brien, who we're now hosting.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
One of the greatest. I just remembered recording that episode and it was just a delight. Then also over on Wicked Words, Kate Winkler Dawson's talking to author Michael Arntfield about his book, Monster City, Murder, Music, and Mayhem in Nashville's Dark Age. Ew. I'm going to read that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
We're so lucky to get to work with her.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Yeah. And you must read it. Yeah. Also, we have some bittersweet news. We are saying goodbye to the Lady to Lady podcast, Brandy, Babs, and Tess. We want to thank you for all your great work over the years. You'll always be a part of the Exactly Right family.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Okay, so today I'm going to tell you about a domestic violence case from the 70s that carries a massive legacy and has changed our perception of spousal abuse. Wow. And just a listener note, this story deals with very severe domestic abuse and suicidal ideation. At the time, spousal abuse was treated as a private matter between a husband and a wife. Spock.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
I was like, does it—I just don't understand what she's saying, and I don't want to get her to clarify. It sounds like maybe it's a Serbian name or something. Right, or I thought, like, it was, like, a British thing or, you know. Oh, my God. Like— Did you get inundated with British listeners being like... Yeah, very kindly. Always.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
At best, and then at worst, it was dismissed, ignored, or joked about. In fact, Ms. Magazine, which at the time was one of the few outlets that was actually pushing back at this kind of language and energy, regularly asked readers to send in sexist ads that they found in newspapers and magazines. No way. Uh-huh.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
And in 1973, someone sent in a print advertisement for a bowling alley in Michigan that read in big, bold lettering, have some fun, beat your wife tonight. Jesus. And right now, if you listen closely, you can hear Bill Maher scrambling to defend this comedy and how hilarious it is. What a joke. What a top-tier joke. Well, this was America in the 70s. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
And what's really weird that sometimes this happens on the show, and it's kind of what I'm in it for, if I'm going to be honest. Yeah. is when I was there for a cultural moment. I was 14 years old. The reason I know this case is because of a made for TV movie that came out when I was 14. So like a handful of years after it happened. No way. And you remember it? Oh, like it was yesterday.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
And I remember not only watching it
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
and experiencing it but then what happened after it wow and it was one of those things that i think these days a lot of it had it had the natural almost viral effect but it was 1984 right which so that never happened yeah and it was that kind of thing where suddenly people were seeing and talking about this issue in a completely different way because i feel like like with so many of these things
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
It starred Farrah Fawcett. Okay. Now, this was Farrah Fawcett when I was a young girl. She was one of the stars of Charlie's Angels. Legendary. And she herself legendary. But for like a Charlie's Angels, I was on the love boat. She was basically the most beautiful woman in America. She did movies and stuff, but she wasn't known for acting first. She was known for beauty first. Right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
This changed that. Wow. She stars in it and does such an unbelievably amazing job. It was like no one could believe it. It was truly incredible. I just I remember not being able to believe what I was looking at. Wow. The other part of it was this thing was, you know, I don't know if you had a lot of experience with made for TV movies or that like CBS Friday Night at the Movies or whatever. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
but it was usually kind of family oriented, you know, kind of like this is a true story of a horse or whatever.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Someone, everyone could watch it. It would be like either inspirational or yeah, romantic or whatever. This was like a true crime documentary. It was so upsetting. It was so harsh. It was so realistic. And the abuse scenes were unlike anything anyone had done before.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
What a cool name.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
No, quite the opposite. And for the time, it was totally revolutionary. Okay. I would say, although this is my opinion, it shocked the nation. You could use that phrase. The day after it was what everyone was talking about.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
It essentially ripped off the mask of wife beater jokes because it exposed the true horrifying nightmare of living life with a violent abuser and what years of life with a violent abuser can actually lead to. The toll it takes. It's so...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
So this is the story of Francine Hughes and the Burning Bed murder, a case that forced the issue of domestic violence out of the shadows and into popular culture.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
The main sources used today are the book The Burning Bed by Faith McNulty, a 2020 mini documentary from the Retro Report and The New Yorker entitled The Domestic Violence Case That Turned Outrage Into Action, a 1984 People magazine article by Gioia Diliberto, entitled A Violent Death, A Haunted Life, and the rest of the sources are in our show notes.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
So our story begins in Michigan in August of 1947, and that's when Frances Hughes is born. Her dad, Walter, is a blue collar laborer who works on farms and in factories. Her mom, Hazel, is a waitress. They have six children, including Francine. They live in poverty, which, of course, is made worse because Walter squanders everything they have on alcohol and gambling.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
And he's also physically abusive towards Hazel. Francine leaves her parents' house as soon as she can when she's 16 years old. She drops out of high school and marries a man named Mickey Hughes, who's three years older than her. So a 16-year-old and a 19-year-old.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Yeah. Right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
women were so at this time which would have been like what late 50s early 60s women's independence like was almost impossible it was so restricted right yeah you couldn't get a bank account under your own name couldn't get it with not without your dad or your husband and then you have a dad like, let's go ahead and name him, Walter.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
S-U-P-T.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
So Walter's the guy that if you don't have somebody better than Walter in your life, then you're just screwed. Totally. So Francine says, quote, I thought he was so sophisticated. He had his own car and most people I knew didn't. So within weeks of their wedding, Mickey's behavior toward Francine changes. She will later remember, quote, I bought some new clothes. He ripped them off me.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
I don't know whether I look too pretty or what, but he didn't want me to look that way. I was shocked because I'd never been treated like that before. What do you do when you're 16 years old and you had to beg your parents to let you get married? Of course, he said, I'm sorry. Forgive me. It'll never happen again. And I believed him. But it did happen again.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
That is a tough one. We have a lot of problems with the British law system. We always have. We have. It doesn't make sense to us. I don't think that's on me. I didn't fact check or anything. We should start calling all police officers from England mum. Just to delineate. Yes.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
And by that time, I was pregnant and felt like I had to make the best of it. Baby angel. Tough. So by the time Francine's 22, she has four children with Mickey. Wow. Two daughters and two sons. But Mickey can't hold down a job. The money he does earn goes to his growing drinking habit, not his family's. So now Francine is stuck in the same cycle her own mother was stuck in.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Her full-time job is caring for her children, but Mickey's drinking and gambling make it nearly impossible for her to buy groceries or pay rent. And at one point, she's left to feed her kids popcorn that she mixes with jelly and water just for the calories. Aww. So meanwhile, Francine lives with a looming threat of violence at the hands of her husband.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Not constantly, because sometimes Mickey can be loving when he wants to be. But Francine learns to walk on eggshells around him. Her son James later reflects on the tense atmosphere in their home by saying, quote, So when Mickey's mad, he usually takes it out on Francine. Sometimes this happens in front of the children, and sometimes it's so bad the cops are called.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
But Mickey never faces any real consequences because at the time, police officers would only make an arrest if they themselves witnessed the assault firsthand. Otherwise, they just file a report. Now, these days, that's changed. In most jurisdictions, officers can make arrests citing probable cause based on injuries or witnesses' statements.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
So, of course, once the police are called to stop this horrible domestic abuse, and then it stops, then they leave. Mickey just goes back to beating Francine again. And so, of course, the natural question that we have heard in the past is why doesn't she leave?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
But I think a lot of people, especially since like the 80s, just people who are interested in knowing the real answer to questions like that, know that it is an incredibly complex situation to be in when abuser and abused. There's no question Francine wants a different life for herself.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Along with the physical abuse, Mickey controls every aspect of her life down to whether or not she can have friends. Wow. Yeah. And we've talked about how difficult it can be for women to leave their abuser.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
But it's worth saying again, escaping abuse can be extremely complex because abusers often use physical, financial and psychological manipulation to trap their victims in a vicious cycle of control. Totally. Also, there's stigma around intimate partner violence, as well as societal or family pressures.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Like when you want to leave, but you have the kind of like mother who might say, no, no, that's, look, you've got to put up with him or you've got to make it so he doesn't do that. That's a society we've lived in for a long time. The women have to fix their men's deep psychological issues or take responsibility for them.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
The genuine love for your abuser can keep you in that situation, but also so does the degradation of the victim's spirit. As attorney and advocate Tiffany Smith explained to Retro Report, quote, "'This big question remains in people's minds who have not been through this or do not understand this, which is why didn't you just leave?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
A woman doesn't go on a first date, get punched in the face, and stay with this person. What happens is very calculating, very slow.'" You're humiliated. You're threatened. You've been told over and over again you're worthless. And it builds and builds until leaving feels impossible. And more than that, it's deadly.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Women are more likely to be killed immediately after leaving than at any other time. Yeah. Also, it's, of course, more difficult when children are in the equation because the abuser could threaten to harm them or take them away, or the victim might not be able to provide for independent life outside of the home.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
So brave. I'd like to commend you on that. Thank you. Who else does it like us?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
There's all that to be considered, but then at this time, when Francine was going through it, there's huge financial and social barriers making it harder for women to establish their independence. And that essentially forces the victim to become reliant on their abuser. Right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
You're right. For example, before the passage of the Equal Credit Opportunity Act in 1974, most women can't open a credit card or get a loan in their own name. at most banks in the country without a male co-signer. And again, that restriction, that discrimination was legal until the mid 70s. That one is such a mind blower when you tell the young women of today stuff like that, where it's like,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
I was four years old when it became legal for women to have their own credit card without their husband's name on it. Jesus. That's fucking ridiculous. That is. Also, this was a time when there are virtually no emergency resources for women experiencing domestic violence, like shelters or organizations that are geared toward the problem specifically. They basically don't exist in a meaningful way.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Everybody. Nobody.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
This leaves Francine with no options, no support. Yeah. With all of that in mind, in 1971, Francine manages to successively file for divorce. Wow. And essentially, this is out of pure desperation, she has to legally separate from Mickey to access the social programs that will help keep her family housed and fed. Right. So it's basically like that's the only option, which then...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
What a horrible, like a puzzle to be in at that time. So it's like, oh, so if you have a piece of shit husband like this at that time and it will require you to have these social services, oh, you have to break up with him first. That's because you're... It's because it's on you what he's doing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
That only punishes the victim.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Mickey's forced to move out of the family home, but he ignores this concept of divorce at all. Francine says, quote, things were no different than before. Mickey came and went as he pleased. Yeah. Then weeks after this divorce is finalized, Mickey gets into a car accident that almost kills him. He breaks several bones. He suffers a serious head injury. He winds up in a coma.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
He spends more than a month recovering in the hospital. Francine, after years of his abuse and manipulation, has been conditioned to prioritize his needs over her own, of course, always, and also to fear his retribution if she does not do that. So she visits Mickey in the hospital. And once he's released, he just moves back into the house with her so that she can basically take care of him.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Francine will later explain her decision, saying, quote, I really felt trapped after this accident. I don't know why I felt so obligated to that man, but I did. Then the real hell began.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Right. It's like you saw the Twilight Zone movie, right, from the 80s? Which one? Yeah. It's the one that was like it was an anthology. So it was a bunch of different little mini movies and one big movie. But there's a part that's like there's a racist that's being racist and like yelling slurs.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Luckily, over this weekend, it rained. So there was a level of calm, or at least slight relief that came over a lot of people who lived in LA who were just living in that fear that they were gonna kick up again, Whatever was going to happen.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
And then he off of the slur, he says to someone is immediately dropped into the situation where that person of the slur, he is that person going through the worst of what that group of people went through. And it is mind blowing. And it's that kind of thing where it's like it would be a great. hologram to send someone. Yeah. It's like, oh, is that your question? Go find out yourself. Totally.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
So the problem is Mickey is recovering from his car accident, drinking more than ever. The abuse toward Francine becomes more frequent. He beats her multiple times a week, sometimes for hours at a time in between his trips to the bar.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
She remembers how a few peaceful days would pass here and there, and then she'd live in terror of going to sleep at night when he wasn't there because, quote, I might wake up being slugged. Jesus Christ. Here's another quote from her. Francine says, quote, I thought, well, maybe I could kill myself. But then I thought, if I kill myself, who's going to take care of the kids?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Nobody could love them like me. I would conjure up schemes about how I would sneak off to the airport with the kids and just leave, quote, but I would picture us sitting on a park bench with nowhere to go. Then I would get scared thinking about what Mickey would do if he found me. So several years go by.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
And then in 1977, when Francine is now just 29 years old, she's subjected to one of Mickey's worst assaults after he learns that she is enrolled in classes to become a secretary. Wow. He forces her to burn her school books in the yard and threatens to sledgehammer the car so she can't get to school. So he just loses it. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
That same night, Francine prepares microwave dinners for the family, but Mickey isn't happy. So this is the scene I can literally see in my head from when I was 14 years old. Because it's kind of like they don't spend a ton of time in the back and forth of like the growing abuse thing. It's kind of like you get what's happening. They do it. It's so realistic.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
And basically it's that scene where she microwaves these dinners and puts them out and he's drunk and he doesn't like it. And then it's like somebody filmed a real domestic abuse situation and put it on television. It was that wild and graphic and horrifying and like nothing... They didn't pretty it up. They didn't cut away. It was unbelievable and really scary. So this is what he does.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
He dumps the meals from their containers onto the floor. He slams his fist so hard on the table. One of his kids' glasses of milk spills and breaks on the floor. Then of course, right, that's the, there we go. Kids are sent upstairs as Francine is trying to clean up this mess. Mickey removes garbage from the garbage can and starts to smear it into her hair. And then he begins beating her.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Such a bizarre week and so dramatic and so horrible for so many people.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Francine can hear her kids crying upstairs and yelling down, Mommy, are you all right? So at one point during this assault, one of Francine's daughters ends up calling the police. By the time they arrive, he stopped beating her again because the police don't witness anything firsthand. They don't arrest him. This is despite Mickey threatening Francine's life right in front of them.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
One of the responding officers later testifies, quote, he told her it was all over for her because she called me. He made numerous threats that he would kill her and he made threats to me. What the fuck? Yeah. I'm sure for those cops too, they're like, this is a drunken monster that we don't want to deal with. And like, and what's going to happen anyway? They're just going to bring them back here.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Like they know the system, there's no process in place to fix this. Right. So like, they're just kind of like, well, this is your problem. That was probably the like morally easiest thing to do is kind of be like that. But I'm sure then at this point, They know it's just like, what is there to do now? Yeah. So we can assume the cop talks Mickey down or the cops talk Mickey down.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
They make a report. They leave. His abuse continues. He forces Francine to make a new dinner for him. Then he rapes her. Afterwards, he falls asleep in a drunken haze. Francine, though, is done. She says, quote, I was thinking about all the things that had happened to me, all the times he'd hurt me, how he'd hurt the kids. I stood still for a moment hesitating and a voice urged me on.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
It whispered, do it, do it, do it. So she puts her kids in her car. Then she goes to the garage and gets a can of gasoline. She goes to the bedroom where Mickey's passed out, douses the area around the bed, lights a match, tosses it at the gas-soaked floor, runs out of the house as it goes up in flames. Holy shit. And now she's in the car with her kids.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
She drives straight to the county jail and turns herself in.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
No. This is my only option. Yeah. You knew it. This is the best case scenario for my kids. Well, I finished it. Nobody else seemed to be able to.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Firefighters, of course, are deployed to the Hughes home. By the time they get there, Mickey's dead. And Francine Hughes is charged with first-degree murder and put in jail. Francine willingly and admittedly murdered her husband while he was sleeping.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
As one officer put it, there was no question that the system had failed her, but in our system, the excuse for system failures is not to commit first-degree murder. Well, thank you for that wonderful lesson. It's like calling a system failure. It's like, this isn't like we had a gas leak. Right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
This is a man who for a decade punches his wife in the face and everyone knows it and no one does shit about it. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
So when the case begins, Francine's lawyer argues that after years of Mickey's relentless abuse, Francine experienced temporary insanity when she killed him. The timing of this case is very important because at the time, feminist groups had already spent years trying to raise awareness and organize around the issue of spousal abuse and domestic violence.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
And writer Faith McNulty will later put it, quote, had it occurred a decade earlier, the facts underlying the crime would probably have never been widely known. But in the 70s, there was a new willingness to listen to a story such as Francine's. Wow. Interesting.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
And I think that new willingness had to do with basically enough women, like you're saying, like women talking to each other, women telling each other stories. you're not alone and you don't have to stay there and we'll figure something out or just like maybe the basic empowerment of you can have a checking account and maybe figure something out.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Because you think of stories after this where women being abused, saving money in like a secret checking account to get away.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
So obviously this case becomes national news. The big networks fled Francine's small Michigan town. And the New York Times writes that Francine's case becomes a, quote, cause celeb for the feminist movement. Yay, feminists. But also, I don't know. I just get the tone of like, oh, it's a cause celeb. It's like she had to kill him to get him to stop hitting her. Right, right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
In the courtroom, a jury of two men and 10 women eventually hand down their verdict. They agree that Francine suffered from temporary insanity and she is acquitted for the murder of her husband. How did they get that jury? Those lawyers.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
But I also wonder if those lawyers were good, but the people, I mean, wherever this was tried, it'd be very... I mean, I want to read this book. Yeah. But... That the people in that community not only knew of him and knew this reality, but so many people have lived through this in some way. Totally. If you're not the spouse, then you're the kid watching that happen.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Plenty of people being like, yeah, enough of this and enough of women going to jail because this is the only option they have.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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So then In 1980, writer Faith McNulty publishes the nonfiction book, The Burning Bed, all about Francine's life and about this case. And that, of course, draws more attention to the issue. Francine gets an $11,000 advance for this book, which is worth around $42,000 in today's money. And she uses it as a down payment for a house. Oh, wow. So she can live with her kids and have a place to be safe.
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Oh, my God.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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But her life doesn't really change materially except for the attention and the interest in the story. She still has to make ends meet. So she actually ends up getting some secretarial work and then she will later operate a forklift in a factory for a couple of years before she gets laid off. When this happens, Francine goes through a dark time and she says, quote, I went a little crazy.
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I was partying almost every night trying to escape from something. I drank a lot and I was taking speed. It was like I was trying to self-destruct. Yeah. But it's also, you didn't have a childhood. You basically went from like sophomore year of high school into a nightmare, nightmare marriage, family situation. The trauma that you're not dealing with. Yeah, you know she wasn't in therapy.
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It's so sad. And it's also there's a weird thing I'm observing in myself and other people I talk to. Either the people that. People that didn't have to evacuate feel guilty to even discuss it, where it's like, well, it wasn't me.
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She wasn't talking to anybody about it. It was like, oh, now... Because it's the abuse, then it's the murder, then it's the infamy. There's so much to deal with that, of course, you just were like, I need to blot it out. This is when Francine meets a man named Robert, who'd recently been released from prison after serving 10 years for armed robbery.
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The nature of this relationship isn't exactly clear, though a Deep Dive People magazine article from the 80s suggests it wasn't a wonderful relationship. They move in together two weeks after meeting. They get married a month after that at Robert's insistence. And that whirlwind pace can also be a red flag in some relationships.
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Francine's marriage to Robert strains her relationship with her children. Based on reporting, it seems like they don't, at the very best, they don't like him. And troublingly, one of her daughters will accuse him of sexual abuse, which he denies.
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The National Domestic Violence Hotline points out that one risk factor for being in a toxic relationship is a lack of exposure to healthy relationship models or examples. And of course, she meets this guy at a very vulnerable time in her life. So it's not like she's like, okay, I also deserve this, but I went through that. In any case, as all of that is playing out in Francine's actual life,
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The book The Burning Bed gets adapted into the made-for-TV movie that airs on NBC starring Farrah Fawcett as Francine. Over 75 million people watched this made-for-TV movie the night it premieres, including 14-year-old Karen Kilgareff and her mother, Pat Kilgareff, who kept going, I don't think we should watch it. I don't...
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This is, Karen, this is very, I don't think, because it truly was like so graphic and like unlike anything ever really had been up until that point. Yeah. So this made for TV movie of Francine's story kicks off a national conversation.
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And according to the New York Times, quote, the number of shelters for battered women grew from a mere handful in 1977 to nearly 700 the year The Burning Bed was televised, which was 1984. Yeah. After this, the term burning bed syndrome becomes the well-known shorthand for the trauma caused by domestic abuse. Wow.
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And then people like me who did evacuate and feel stupid because I just left probably an hour before most of the other people in my area did because basically Jay Elias, our great development coordinator- at this point, but also executive assistant to many at this company, texted me and was like, you have to get out right now.
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And then later in his 2016 book co-written with writer Alan Sepinwall titled TV the Book, television critic Matt Zoller Seitz named The Burning Bed as the seventh greatest American TV movie of all time.
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writing, quote, the film was a landmark in terms of content depicting domestic violence as an unambiguous horror and a human rights violation.
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Seitz also praised the performance of Farrah Fawcett as one of the finest in the history of TV movies.
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It was crazy. I just wish the difference between Charlie's Angel, Farrah Fawcett, like supermodel, the hair, the whole thing. She was just a girl on a poster and all of a sudden she was like, watch this. That's incredible. Watch this. It was amazing. So basically Francine and Robert eventually leave Michigan for the South. There, Francine gets her nursing degree.
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The couple lives in Tennessee and then in Alabama. Francine finds work in nursing homes and as an in-home caregiver, and she passes away from complications related to pneumonia in 2017. Francine Hughes was 69 years old at the time of her death. Her family members have said that she rarely talked about the case. She was once quoted as saying, People look at me like they're trying to figure me out.
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I don't feel like I have to explain myself to anybody and I don't need pity or sympathy. I'm just an ordinary person." Francine was an ordinary person whose nightmarish home life was tragically also not unique. Instead, Francine was a victim of a much larger systemic problem that persists today.
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Domestic and intimate partner violence can and does affect anyone regardless of a person's age, sex, education level, or economic background. Within a year of her trial, Michigan passed new laws dealing with spousal abuse. And since then, more have been introduced that prioritize victim safety.
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Of course, there are now shelters, hotlines, and organizations dedicated to supporting survivors of domestic violence and or intimate partner violence. Still, Francine's case isn't the norm, despite hand-wringing shortly after her verdict about how women would now be able to shoot their husbands and get off scot-free.
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The reality is that in the years since, there have been several high-profile cases where a survivor has been jailed for killing their abuser. Yeah, there's a lot of those. According to the National Domestic Violence Hotline, 12 million people are affected by intimate partner violence each year.
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One in four American women and one in seven American men over the age of 18 have been the victim of serious physical violence by an intimate partner. One in four and one in seven.
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If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse or intimate partner violence, please remember you're not alone. They're not alone. Help is available. You can call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE. Their website is thehotline.org, just thehotline.org.
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And they offer information on warning signs of abuse, resources in your state, how to support someone you love that might be experiencing intimate partner violence. They're free. It's confidential. It's available 24-7. I'm grateful that we live in a time where I can pass that information on to
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To all of you as a woman who has her own checking account and owns her own home and has some goddamn options in this world. And that is the story of Francine Hughes and the burning bed murder. Wow. I had never heard that. I had never heard of it. At all? No. Oh, I thought I was like, when I was talking about it, I thought you were just like, yeah, yeah, I know.
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It's such a specific, I mean, you were four years old, but it's also such a specific, it's all, I can also remember the Mothers Against Drunk Driving made for TV movie. Right. Those weird like era changing ideas of like, we don't have to do this anymore. Totally. Then it's very mothers centric. It's female centric in my opinion. Of course. Yeah.
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Thank you.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah, it is.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Remember when I did the weather in 14, like 13? It was like when the weather was so bad for a year and a half that everyone just like died and there was no food and stuff. This is fucking older.
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Yeah, they're over it. All Italians are over it. Let's not talk about it. No one was talking about her when I went to Italy.
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I honestly thought Germany, and I was like, you should say Germany and just sound really smart. And then I was like, the other voice that's finally grown in my head that goes, don't do it. Don't even try. You don't know these things. Supped?
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Well, you were freaking out. It was freaking out. It was fucking so scary.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Supped? You're kidding yourself, Supped.
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Yes. Was it Tiberius? Yeah. It's because I watched, what's it called? Gladiator 2? Seriously. Starring Paul Mescal. It's the PBS series from the 70s. I don't know. And I keep wanting to say Caligula. But you got it right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Something stuck.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It was I, Claudius. Thank you. Thank you. I wondered where he was. I, Claudius.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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But I will tell you just this one thing. Yeah. I was so blown away when I went to Rome. Yeah. To see these places that they used to meet, they're fucking huge. So like, you know, when you're thinking about it and you're just like, oh, friends, Romans, countrymen type of stuff. And you're like, oh, they're probably like on a weird little rock.
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Or you're thinking of like some Monty Python movie or whatever. Like they're all standing in a circle in a marketplace. No, no, no. These things were like huge. 15-story buildings. Wow. And they're still standing, kind of. Huge, and they're still standing. And then there's metal statuary on top of that. It was mind-blowing. What a time. I want to go.
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Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Well, it's the thing that they talk about. We're like, that's how they distract us. And then everybody's corrupt in the government and they give us our bread and circuses.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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What? Roman Empire, you say?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Is no Victorian England? No. Those are the two times I know. Yeah. Pretty much.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Hell yeah. Did I just make that up? A lot of parades. A lot of like, right? Yeah. A lot of flowers being dropped down from high. Yes.
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That's like, is that what's in the Vatican secret library or whatever?
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All the stuff that really used to help us.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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She's boss bitching, but writing it on the wall in Roman numerals.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Also, I didn't realize that until now. It's like, oh, yeah, there was all kinds of poisonings happening, like palace intrigues type stuff. Yeah. Those rich people aren't just going to have poison on hand. Like they have to buy it from somewhere.
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Okay, start it.
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Like gridlock, emergency gridlock trauma. I saw that video of those cars being left in the Pacific Palisades. And that's why I, well, that and Jay telling me, but it was like, yeah, yeah, I'm not waiting around until everybody else is looking at each other and getting in the car at the same time.
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Right. Because everyone's fucking being poisoned. Right. It was so common, especially in the palace.
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Yeah.
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Yeah. Okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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They can't. It's always killing with them. It's so much killing.
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Yeah. If you're like, well, there's the heir to the throne. Yeah. I'm sure there's no problem. No, we're all fine. Yeah.
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Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Or they're just not staring into the face maybe for very long. Or they're like, I'm not the one to say anything.
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I got to tell you, if anybody wants to watch it, iClaudius is a pretty amazing. It's like. old British incredible actors kind of as like they're doing a play on a TV stage. Yeah. And all of this stuff is like the stakes are insane. Okay. Yeah. I'm into it. Because then it's like if you live and you're the one that doesn't get poisoned, you get to have like all of Germany. Right.
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You get to have, do you like Scotland? You can have it. We have stuff all the way up in Ireland.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Oh yeah, he'll kill you immediately.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Not at all.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Right. But it was probably happening a lot. Just the second, the first human brain that got a weird little screw fall out of it type of thing. Sorry, that's an oversimplification. No, that sounds scientifically correct from what I've read. I mean, especially back then. Yeah. It was much before it was a sin. You know, it happened all the time. Definitely.
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He literally, he was telling, texting me and being like, hey, where are they right now? Like, I was the one that was taking screenshots of the Watch Duty app and sending them to him. No, I was, like, informing him about what was going on. All right, well. Yeah. But, I mean, I'm sure in his, if he were to say anything, which I'm sure my sister said, don't say anything. Oh, yeah.
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Sorry, but right there, if I was like, Galba is now in charge, I'd be like, yeah, no, this isn't going to last. Why? Because you never heard of it? Galba? Yeah. That's not D-D-D-S? You don't have any I-U-S at the end? Galba. It's fucking Galba? Oh my God, it's over.
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They're all pretty bad. But yeah, you'd just get thrown in a pit with a bunch of coyotes. Oh, God.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Also, if you have a history podcast where you go into this part of Roman history in depth, I'll listen to it.
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If he was going to say anything, he'd be like, take it easy. Right, right. Yeah. Maybe why I was interpreting that is like there's I'm seeing I'm hearing a lot of other people have shame where it's like, no, that's you. That's tied to you and your trauma. And your weird family. So good luck. The way they do things.
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I think the thing about people who learned a lot and stayed in school is that it's because they read books and got what was happening and then were like, oh my God, this is a great factoid. Which I feel like you and I are both the kind of people, had we not been born with these brains, we would have been those people. But the sitting in the seat and being told what to do. Totally.
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The distractions.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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No, but I feel like these days, you know, history for weirdos, there are people who got really good at teaching because they understand what's interesting about history or like that it's here's how you bring history to life. This podcast will kill you. Great example. So smart. Learning about that kind of stuff where it's like, oh, often we put a mental block up. Yeah. It's like, oh, history.
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That's boring. It's like, it's so not boring. It's so not boring. I'm a big fan of history.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Wow. That was great. Thank you. If you want to dip into the Roman Empire every once in a while, tell me about it. I am here for it. Okay. We have to.
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And that's what we're like. You know what I mean? It's like, I feel like we're able to get in there and really produce. That's right. Everything is handed to us as we walk in the door. Every single thing is thought through for us.
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Can't hand that to me. Can't hand that to you. Can't print that up on a copier in a different part of the building I've never seen. No, you can't. No. Well, thank you guys for being here and being part of this.
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Yeah, we really love it. And one last thank you to all our ceramic. Ceramicists.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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You know what we do is take these and put them down here and put these things up here so these guys get a little time in the sun. Yeah. Right.
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We are. And we're going to fill up these shelves with all of the beautiful. It's just so nice that we have the kind of listeners that and you guys have been like this from day one. Yeah. That like we go like, hey, can we have a thing about something? Hey, will you teach us about Roman Empire? And then it's like, boom, boom.
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But suffice it to say, really shocking, terrible, like natural disaster to a degree I've never seen. And I've lived here for 25, over 25 years.
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Yeah. Boom. And I'm funny and creative. Yeah. It's incredible. And like the response, the ceramic response is to the point where the post office is kind of mad at us. I knew they would be. It's wonderful.
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Listen. It's been around for at least since Slocasta's time. Truly. So stay sexy. And don't get murdered.
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This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck. Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It does in many ways, although the rain kind of brought a little bit of a like at least a like, OK, we're done with that. Yeah. Now that's like we're going to close this particular chapter of this particular trauma season. So, yeah, the thing we wanted to talk to everybody about is how. long before any of that started. We had a ninth anniversary for this old podcast, this old gal.
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I think it was on the 13th.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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People were making, and people were making and shipping, and people were sharing, and it was exactly what we wanted. And then we basically... It was almost kind of like we sent everyone an invitation to the party and left the house and turned the lights out and were like, see you later. So... This today, it's just going to be a little taste of what we wanted that to be.
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Right, exactly. We'll do a live stream because we have the capability to now here at the studios. But also just we thought it would be a super fun, cool new way to kind of celebrate something or like mark an important day, like an anniversary. Yeah. Like your almost decade anniversary of a podcast. Right. Imagine.
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In a woman's life. Yeah, for sure. That and getting her first piece of dedicated ceramics. So without further ado, the reason we're telling you all this, listener, is because we are now going to take a look at some of the, just some, and like truly... We're going to have a lot of these. We're going to be able to do this maybe as a recurring segment of let's take a look at today's ceramic.
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I did. No, no, no. I did accidentally simply just right before we started because I yanked this thing. In the pure fun of there's a black piece of silk. And you just went for it. And I was like, yes. And I was like, no.
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It'll be all over socials. We're going to make this for you, listener, who's just walking around the mall being like, I don't know what I'm talking about. Don't worry. It's okay. We're going to explain it. We're going to give you pictures. In this day and age, soon you'll be able to look at your podcast app and video will be sitting there. That's right.
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Yeah. What's really important, I think, for everyone to know and the video watcher will now know is these ceramic pieces, these ceramic artworks are right now sitting on an electric Lazy Susan on our podcasting desk. So we can make this as HGTV, not HGTV, as Shopping Channel. What's that one? With the letters. Home Shopping Network. HSN. HSN. We're going into that area pretty severely.
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Now the spin begins. And I'm taking it off.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Also, it's whatever any artist felt like giving us. So this is Emily, a.k.a. Pottery Mama.
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This is high art. It's gorgeous. I love these colors. It says, quote, this is just a segment of the email or the letter that Pottery Mama sent with us. They said, please enjoy your new ceramic French cross and mugs. I made them while listening to MFM, plus a bit of buried bones. And this podcast will kill you sprinkled in.
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Not in any way.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And then we throw it on the ground.
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All right. We can intro this first. Okay. It's from an artist named Missy, aka Young Yenta. Oh, Instagram handle, at Young Yenta. Love it. And she says, as a ceramicist, Jewess, and hot dog lover, I felt it was my duty to fulfill your anniversary request. Oh, my God. You give so much to me and all your fans, so it's an honor to give back. Ready? Want me to do it? Yeah. One, two, three.
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And it says in mustard, stay sexy and nosh on a dog. I love it. That's gorgeous. That is beautiful. People are sending us. These are like actual pieces. This is. Yeah. I don't know what the kitchenware term is.
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We have it all for a month. God, I really love this. It's beautiful. Missy, you did an incredible job. And also just, it's basically a hot dog plate.
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Yeah. That's perfect. Maybe a couple of chips on one end and the other.
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Listener, you're going to love this because this is just some simple, beautiful hot dog. Yeah. That's just kind of like you love hot dogs, right? Yeah. Well, then take a look at this plate. And somehow it's flawless. It really is because it totally suggests you're going to eat one or two dogs only on this plate.
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It's gorgeous and also makes me think of one of those ones you can put it on the dashboard of your car because it's like a really good travel mug wider at the base and narrow at the top. I have to touch it. You guys are professionals. I didn't know it would be like, I'm kind of like in awe. I know. I'm totally in awe. It's really exciting. Guys are so talented.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
It's because like we said a thing where it's like, hey, do you like to make a thing in this one way? Well, will you make us some? And people are like, I make stuff in that way.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Coming to ABC and Hulu. Amanda Riley was a mother, wife, speaker at her church. And then she got diagnosed with cancer. A beloved young Christian woman fighting a battle undeserved. We thought she was God's gift, but she was a liar.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
That's perfect. Yeah. Actually, my niece, Sophie, texted me because she went and saw The Shining at the theater and she was like, hey, I just saw The Shining. You've seen that, right? And I was just like, this is so weird. Of course. I was like, yes, of course. She's like, it was so good. It was crazy. And I'm like, yeah, it was like the cutest kind of discovery moment that she wanted.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And now they're back with a new show that premieres Tuesday, January 28th on the Exactly Right Network.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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She brought to me because she was like, I feel like you're the kind of person that would appreciate that movie. And I'm like, yes, I do. I really do.
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Guys, could you tell we were reading off a teleprompter?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
When I saw that movie, my friend Danny and I hated it so much that like five days later, we were at a barbecue together and a guy we did not know happened to nearby us say that he liked that movie and we harangued him until he left the party. Because they're like, what are you talking about?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Which is, of course, our very 90s personality, which was lauded back then when you were just like overtly hostile for no reason to every single person. But it was this thing of like, I don't know what you're talking about. But it's like, of course, that's what David Lynch is trying to get you to do.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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He's like, do you like this or do you absolutely hate it? OK, here's a little more. Like, I just think that part of it is making people who maybe wouldn't even think to do it suddenly talk about movies, know what they like about movies, like know that their opinion counts about movies. It's cool.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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How would you guys synopsize what you're doing on your podcast? Or, like, what's your elevator pitch of the podcast? What's the vibe?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Millie, did you say what your movie most recent was? Yeah. Better Man. Oh, so sorry. I got so excited about Truly Madly Deep because it's literally like I made that movie. Nobody knows that movie ever. And I'm always telling people, you've got to watch it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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How did you guys come to that idea that this is a movie podcast? What was the thinking behind all of that?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah. The eternal question. Totally. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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We want to get a sense of through the move. We're just trying to do the movie thing along with you. We want to get a sense of who you are as people. What do you get when you go to the movie theater? What is your snack combination?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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From the number one smash hit podcast. It was only a matter of time until Amanda's whole world came tumbling down. You're not going to believe this. Scamanda. New episodes Thursday nights on ABC and stream on Hulu.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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But in an Icy, it's the most delicious thing of all time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
I don't. I've never finished my snacks before. I mean, not to say it's like it's not like I haven't put this put a serious dent. But to me, part of the joy of like the big bucket of popcorn and watching a movie is like the zone out and just insane. Just like, OK, just shoveling it into your face in the dark. That's the fun of it. OK, that's good to know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Honestly, I'm like, don't worry about those other people. I have a followup to that question, which is who's the most famous person you've ever seen at the concession stand at the arc light here in Los Angeles.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Or the guy with the white hair.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
That is a good one.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
I mean, the only reason I wrote that question in was because I saw Colin Farrell at the Arclight concession stand. So I reverse engineered that entire thing simply to be able to tell that story again.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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How could you be anti? I challenge you, but I swear to God, I felt him coming from like 500 paces. I was just like, what's this? There's electricity in the air down here in the lower concession area. And then I looked over, there he was, glasses, headband, workout clothes. He absolutely was like, The aura was like 20 feet in front of him. He knew it. We all knew it. It was amazing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It's like an angel. Yeah. Movie stars at the movies. Like, what more do you want?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
They're like, that's their way to party.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Especially that movies. It's already so tense.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And so much going on.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Then you have to sit next to them the whole fucking time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Hold on a second, though. Just to devil's advocate. Okay. Why were you so late? That's what my mom said to me, too.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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The last time we went to the movies, it was a very similar situation, except for I was the late one. And the movie theater for some, it was in my hometown. It was so dark inside the movie theater that I couldn't find the rows, like the letter row walking up and no idea what the number of seat. So my cousin is up there somewhere. Yeah. And I walk halfway down and it's pitch black.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Like I can't see anything. And it's one of those ones where, you know, the newfangled movie theater seats where it's like a lazy boy recliner. So I'm walking really slow because I don't want to slam my shins into a recliner thing. And I just am like guessing as to where my seat would be or where my cousin is. And so I'm bending over and trying to look into people's faces.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Like halfway down, walking really slow. And I just go like... Anna? And then this girl just goes, no. And then I just, so I keep going. And then I just end up very slowly running into the wall. Because it was one of those small theaters that doesn't have stairs on either side. It was just like, I just got to the end by touching my nose to a carpeted wall.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It hurts me. It was so embarrassing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Yes, and they can see you fine because your eyes are adjusted. Yes, and it was the beginning of a complete unknown where the guys- It's so dark! It's so dark and they're in a hospital while someone is dying of a degenerative disease. So when I hit the wall, my cousin Sophie is the one that's there. And she goes, did you just run into the wall? And I'm like, thanks for your help.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And she goes, I couldn't see you. Didn't know it was you until you started laughing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Yeah. Wild. Should we let you guys host a little bit? You know, you guys host like it's your podcast.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Well, the first thing I saw was Kevin Kline with his like balancing on something, which actually could be from a different movie. But I'm picturing him like I feel like he had that spate, this run of movies from like 84 to 95, where it was like that he would it would be Kevin Kline on the spine of a VHS tape, like balancing on a chair or like having a mustache.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
I totally see it. The visual part. But I think Kevin Kline, anything he was doing, I wanted to be there for it. And my family would be, too. Like, A Fish Called Wanda made my parents laugh so hard. It was one of those kinds of that and the four seasons, like, where you're like, what's going on that they like this so much? And then it made me...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
me pay more attention to like the actual comedy because I was interested in like what what what was everyone doing that was eliciting that response yeah they weren't because they were not easy laughers and they were like crying laughing so I think it was that piece of it where it's like kind of what the our family liked a little bit
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Right. Get in front of that white psych and pose. Sell this thing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
What? Oh, my God. It's a classic.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Oh, yeah, yeah. It was in the solid horror section, which I wouldn't necessarily be that interested in. But you would kind of love the, like, I was thinking that would always be next to, like, Christine. And then, like, something else. So you'd be like, oh, I would watch a Stephen King. Oh, my God. Happy birthday to me. Or, like, the one. where the, like, she will have her revenge.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
There was some really dark late 70s horror that would get mixed in there. So then it would just be like, well, we can't rent that, but what is it?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Yeah. Definitely. And you were in there, like, staring at these boxes. Like, it was quiet like the library.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
And you were desperate to pick something that would actually entertain you because that was, like, your one chance where it's like, go find something. And then it was like, what will I pick that will actually make me happy?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
It's like pervs go in the bath.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
But they all had that, though.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
It was like, it was always like beaded curtain, kind of like, here's the sexy area. Yeah. Did you ever rent anything when you got older? In the beaded sexy area?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Oh, my God. Yeah, me neither. I just watched The Cook, The Thief, His Wife, and Her Lover a bunch of times.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
I don't know, though. It's very sexy and dirty.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
And there's a lot of pate on naked bodies.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
But does she have shoes on? The idea that they just named it what the thing is, is the funniest.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
He loves movies. Yeah, turns out. Always has.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
I watched a documentary, Forrest, with my dad about the automat in New York City that he was in and talked very passionately about the automat and what the automat was like. It was hilarious.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Let's do it. Yeah, that's a good one. We'll get on that here at Exactly Right. We're going to do everything we can. All right. Do you guys have, is there anything else you want to talk about? Or a plug or anything?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah, it's great. It's exciting. It's great. I will definitely miss I Saw What You Did because as a film historian and a great writer, Millie, you just would kind of present these the movies that you and Danielle would talk through. And it would be like Danielle would just be kind of the the person who's like, oh, I just saw this for the first time. And then you would be you would.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
present kind of the other side of like, well, here are all the things I know about this. And it's so deeply interesting to me because you are so good at that and you have been doing it for so long. But listening to the two of you guys talk, and it's much more kind of like up-to-date conversational recommendations, what's going on. It's day and date.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
It's almost like a little, it's like your movie newsletter. Yeah. As opposed to your movie Thesis, which both so valid. But you guys as a combination is just like so charming and easy to listen to as a podcast. So great.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Yeah, it's a perfect, their theme song is so perfect and lovely. I know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
You guys, congratulations. We love your show. We can't wait for everyone else to hear it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Also, don't forget to listen, subscribe and give that show a five star rating. It really deserves it. And also stay sexy. And don't get murdered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
This has been an Exactly Right production.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Yeah, I feel like... And, you know, listeners, when you listen to episode one, like, you'll get that kind of... That party... It's like movie party vibe where, like, the first time I listened to it, just your guys' chit-chat where each topic and each movie and each thing that came up, it was, like, all in... Like super interest, super passion.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And but then also just like these different takes where it's like, you know, waxing poetic about the Magic Mike trilogy where it's like, I never thought about that before. That's really true. Like just that kind of thing where it's like you can be you can be deep and analytical kind of about anything you want as long as you like it enough. And it felt like that, you know. Thank you.
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So you guys on your podcast usually start by telling each other the movies that you've watched recently. What movies have you watched recently?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Oh, she's going to go. She has to be legit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Did you watch a movie today?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Wow. Yeah. Good for Robbie. Yeah. I mean, he was a superstar. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Right. You've never seen this monkey. We can't support this monkey. We don't know him.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It's like my favorite movie of all time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Yeah, Juliet Stevenson.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
Well, also because it's so heavy, like they do, they don't try to clean anything up. It's not the American version of if a girl's boyfriend died that she lived with. And obviously it's her life partner. It is like, there's a scene. I think it begins with a scene where she's at the therapist and,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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sobbing and trying to explain how isolated she feels because he's gone and she's walking around and all these people are living life and whatever. And she's ugly crying to a degree where it is like, I was like, who is this woman?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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She's such a good actress.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And the end. Total no spoiler, but also be careful because of me because I don't keep my promises. But essentially the reveal. Should I not say the reveal? Don't say the reveal. I don't want to know. Okay. Okay. Cause that reveal when I first watched it and same Casey, where it was me, my friend, Dave Messmer, who we worked at the gap together and his friend.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
464 - Dear Movies, I Love You
And she's the one that was like, we have to watch this movie. And all three of us were sobbing at the end, like together sobbing. It was crazy. And it was just one of those weird, like, it's just a perfect nineties, like real life. I don't know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And who's the director? Do you remember offhand?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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You're not movie people, which I think is like this would be a perfect podcast for you because it's, I think, Casey and Millie kind of pulling people into the movie world like it's going to be okay. We're with you. Come in.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Can you guys give individually or together as a team, like three movies that you would recommend to people who love movies, but are intimidated by coming into like a cinema graphic world? Is that the right word? Like coming into the world of film people.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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That is Georgia Hardstark. And that is Karen Kilgareff. And today we are so thrilled to be talking to two people you might already know. She is a film programmer and historian. He's a filmmaker. And
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
This is exactly right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Oh, is that where that case? Oh my God. What's that woman's name?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Oh my God. All you said was hello and welcome. This is a special episode. Is that what you're going to say?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah. There's about eight red flags, and you just started telling me this story.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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We're on vacation, you guys. We're not even here. This is fake if you're hearing us. We're somewhere else skiing. We're skiing. Are you skiing? Yeah, we're both skiing on the same set of skis. That's how we go on vacation.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Get ready. That's our vacation. Yeah. So we're on vacation. So this is a short episode and we will be back soon, but we don't ever want to leave you entirely. God forbid we do that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
Well, and it feels like—and this is obviously, I have no idea, but just hearing the details of what you've told me—
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
from the outside it's like she is trying to get the thing that she never had build the thing she never had with a person who does not want to give it to her and not only never intended to give it to her but who has been the last person she should be trying to do that with but obviously if she's been groomed since she was in junior high yeah
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Then she actually doesn't really know anything about... She wouldn't be able to, but then she's also been completely under the influence of this grown man. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It's so tragic. And it's also the reason they say a lot of times pedophiles groom children who are at risk because there are those voices aren't there to tell them that or defend them or anything. It's just it's it's a tragedy on top of a tragedy. Totally. Do you ever wish cats could talk? Absolutely not. It would be nothing but insults and gaslighting. Oh my God, that would be so cute though.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And today we're donating $10,000 to the Trevor Project. The Trevor Project aims to end suicide among lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and questioning young people and to ensure those young people see a bright future for themselves.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
Their crystals will change color to indicate early signs of illness in your cat, such as urinary tract infections and kidney issues. Then the best part?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
Yeah, and with Quince, you can give yourself quality luxury essentials without the hefty price tag.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
Karen, let's talk about your sweater. I'm literally wearing a Quince sweater right now. It is the Mongolian cashmere sweater. Cashmere sweaters used to be a thing my mom gave us one every year at Christmas. And it's like precious, you know, wrapped in tissue paper of like, be careful. And, you know, this was like this precious thing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
The idea that you can get yourself a cashmere sweater for 50 bucks and have like this beautiful staple in your wardrobe is one of the many beautiful things about Quince. I love this brand.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
Look at me. I'm acting like it's Christmas morning over here.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
Go to quince.com slash MFM for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
And if money isn't the thing you can give right now, they also have volunteer opportunities where you can work as a virtual volunteer to support young people to help them navigate tough times and prevent suicide.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
Especially people that have some sort of a conscience or some sort of an ethical center. Right, right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
Also basic, like human decency. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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You know, we're all on vacation. There aren't that many highlights, but we just want to tell you some important stuff. Like for example, the good news that the Exactly Right Store now has gift cards and they're the perfect last minute gift. So grab yours now at exactlyrightstore.com.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Oaths and duties to protect and serve really is kind of the banner. That's the banner statement where just like it's it's gone so insane with policing in America. It's just so out of control. It is.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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That's, like, it's the act itself, the potential of that being true and, like, whatever the trial is going to result in. But then also just the overall corruption of, like, so you would actually protect something this craven. You would actually... You would actually participate in it and you would make sure it gets to keep happening. That's just like, that's horrifying on so many levels.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I think Paul Hull's one time talked about how it's a very easy bone to break. So it isn't immediately proof.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yes, and if you're loving the podcast here on Exactly Right, then we beg you to go rate, review, and follow wherever you like to listen.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I mean, I, so I remember seeing like an article about that, I think when that first broke of like, this is like this controversy. And the reason like it sticks in my mind is because you're saying that the program she joined was from Boy Scouts of America. Yeah. Which, if you have ever seen Leave No Trace, which is a documentary about the Boy Scouts of America, it is harrowing and hair-raising.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It's a program that almost encourages pedophiles and people who have ill intent toward children. Yeah. And the idea that then they're going through and it's like, we're going to take this and now implement it through policing. Yeah. The people who seem to have ultimate authority over everybody all the time. Like, what a nightmare. Totally.
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And then like, not without oversight, but with oversight by those predators. By their, yes, the same people. Yeah. Wow. That's going to be kind of fascinating to see how that case turns out. It is that thing of like once you kind of pull, pick up that rock and like let the sunshine come through, it's like at least gives people hope for like if one thing gets exposed, then the exposure spreads.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Right. But also all year round. So Valentine's, Easter, whatever. We're going to keep asking for this present.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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But God, these are like, these ones are bad. It's, you know, we don't want to sit on here and talk about anything like we know anything. But like, this is what this podcast is, is us consuming media and going, wow, as an average American, what in the hell is going on? Well, great job. Thank you. So, yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah, we'll just keep our vacation promise to you. Hey, we're gone now. We're skiing at the moment, but... Tandem skiing. We still want to tell you all of the horrible things that are happening in the world so that you can have a good holiday.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yes. And also, if you need a palate cleanser and we don't have the one we normally build in, go over to the Minnesota's because there's some real joyful shit happening over there. Real fun time stories, real good stories about people's grandmas and their trash dads and those games where you step into a cabinet and money gets blown all around you. What's it called? Money? A money grab?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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A money booth. Money booth. Money booth.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah. And you know, in the meantime, we'll see you when we get back. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck. Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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This episode was mixed by Liana Squilacci.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Thank you so much for having me. By putting online courses, videos, and memberships behind a paywall, you can earn revenue with one-time fees or subscriptions.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
Are you going to tell me a story?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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There's a G in there, you know? All kinds of G's and H's and T's.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yes, completely. And I think it also is, I feel like I was reading recently that, Yeah, it's a coping mechanism that we learn early and that, just like you're saying, is a bit for connection, but also I think there's a little bit of a, I'm just thinking of how I do it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Where it is that kind of thing of like, this is, like, get to know me and then if you don't like it, then you can go. Totally.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And yeah. And if you don't like any of this, then, then great. We're all on the same page. It's kind of like that. Like it's also, that's very controlling. It's kind of trying to say, I can't deal with the basic back and forth nuance of a normal adult relationship. I have to run it this way where it's like, throw it on the table. If you don't like it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Well, it's I think it's from maybe past transgressions where vulnerability has been a bad idea for you. And so you just don't want it to happen again. So you're like, fine, here's here's how we're going to run it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Exactly. Exactly.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And welcome to My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgariff. And we're about to podcast into your ears. You ready for this one?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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We're about to finish it. Are you ready? All right. Today's a shorty episode. That's fine.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And I want that title from now on.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
463 - We Are Never Brief
He was like an awkward mama's boy goofball.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
463 - We Are Never Brief
Blackmail. It's not even blackmail, though. It's like, oh, you're not going to say anything? Then I'm sending it to fucking collections, which in this case is your reputation. I'm collecting your fucking reputation, bitch.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah. Oh, the scandal. The scandal. I want to be in like a cafe when those get released on the day of and everyone's just like, did you see so-and-so's in that? I mean...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It was only a matter of time until Amanda's whole world came tumbling down.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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With the discretion and with holds all the.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
463 - We Are Never Brief
You're paying for discretion. And if you haven't paid for it, then it doesn't belong to you. That's right. Then if you're going to cheat, then she gets to cheat.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yes, I want to be there.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It's kind of old for that time, right? Like, it's not now, obviously, but for back then, like, that's an old lady, legitimately.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I mean, what resilience.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It seems like agency was very important to her and she was able to fucking create a life around it. It's pretty amazing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Great job. Thank you for telling that story. Thank you for listening actively. We've done it again. We did it again. Thank you guys for listening to this quote short episode, but like seriously. It's never short. It's never short. We are never brief. That's our promise to you. That's right. We promise to never shut the fuck up. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye.
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Elvis, do you want a cookie?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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You're not going to believe this. Scamanda. New episodes Thursday nights on ABC and stream on Hulu.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
463 - We Are Never Brief
Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
463 - We Are Never Brief
Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
463 - We Are Never Brief
Our researchers are Maren McClashen and Allie Elkin.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder. Goodbye.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
463 - We Are Never Brief
But what we couldn't tell you at the time is that Millie DeCherico is coming back with an all-new movie podcast called Dear Movies, I Love You. Her co-host, Casey O'Brien, was the producer of I Saw What You Did, and the two became friends through their shared love of movies.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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But the dad, like, where's the dad? I know, like, he's still alive, you know, like.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
463 - We Are Never Brief
So after this episode, stick around so you can hear the trailer for our newest Oscar-worthy podcast, Dear Movies, I I love you.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
463 - We Are Never Brief
Yeah. It's like that thing of like. Hey, she didn't do it by herself. Right. And she got pregnant because there's no fucking birth control. I mean. Right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
463 - We Are Never Brief
And don't forget to follow Dear Movies I Love You on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Get ready to obsess over all things movies.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
463 - We Are Never Brief
Maybe. I don't know where this is going.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Well, we just had a ravine behind our high school. Oh, okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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All right, you're first. I am first today. Okay, so I have a feeling you're going to know this story, maybe because I've talked about parts of it, but it's the story of two infamous British gangster brothers who achieved folk hero status just a few years after their rise to fame. They were charming, entertaining nightclub owners. Ugh. Ugh. This is the story of the notorious Cray twins.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah. People would go down there and get high and have important discussions.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Holy shit. Do you know this? Yes, and they've been brought up a lot in the podcast, but we've never covered them, I guess. Yeah, I think I'm doing this now because we were talking about Tom Hardy and the movie Legend and all that stuff. So it was like, oh, well, actually, let's just go back and cover it.
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So the main sources used in this story today are the book Our Story, written by Ronnie and Reggie Cray. And Fred Dynage. Also the book The Profession of Violence, The Rise and Fall of the Cray Twins by John Pearson. And an article by writer Duncan Campbell that ran in The Guardian in 2015 titled The Selling of the Crays, How Two Mediocre Criminals Created Their Own Legend.
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And the rest are in our show notes. So... It all begins in October of 1933 when Reggie and Ronnie Cray are born into this world 10 minutes apart. Reggie first, then Ronnie at the family home in the Hagerston neighborhood of East London. In 1938, the Cray family left that home and moved to London. Bethnal Green. Big long pause because I was so positive.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I was like, it couldn't be that easy to pronounce. At the time, London's East End is gritty, overcrowded, and many of its residents are trapped in the constant cycle of poverty and unemployment. The Cray's parents are East Enders Violet and Charlie Cray, who already have a seven-year-old son named Charles Jr. when the twins arrive.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Do you think that maybe all teens have that kind of heartbreak and disappointment because they think that's what's supposed to happen and it kind of is never really happening for most of them? Valentine's Day or ravines? Like Valentine's Day victories. Oh, okay. Yeah. Ravines are definitely happening for teens.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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So by 1939, as World War II is kicking off, Ronnie and Reggie are six years old, and their father, Charlie, is gone much of the time. Reggie will later say, quote, Sure. Sure. You know, just a touch. We've been up in there. Meanwhile, the twins' mom, Violet, is a loving and attentive mother who instills in her boys a deep respect for family.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Even in the most desperate times, as London is bombed and the family is evacuated and money runs low, she somehow shields her children from the serious difficulties of everyday life. During World War II.
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Reggie will later say, quote, Hmm. And the Cray twins are right little bastards from the start. So this is a quote from the Cray's walking tour information page on the website London Walks, which is walks.com. They nailed that one. They must have got it early. Quote,
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Quote within quote, if you came from the East End and you wanted out, there were only three things you could become a boxer, a car thief or maybe a musician. Wow. End quote. To give you a little perspective of what it was like there. Luckily, Reggie and Ronnie got into a lot of fights with neighborhood kids. And so as expected, as they enter their late teens, they also get into boxing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Both their father and grandfather were boxers. And their older brother, Charles Jr., is the one who actually teaches them the ropes. So he is, too. For a while, boxing seems like a promising career path for them both, especially Reggie, who was said to be an exceptional athlete and very meticulous and thoughtful in the ring. Ronnie, on the other hand, is more brutal and unpredictable.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And these two boxing styles actually end up mirroring how people will describe the Kray's personalities, Reggie being the brains, Ronnie being the muscle. Yeah. So that said, both brothers are talented enough to participate in local youth championships, and their fights even get some press attention in the London newspapers. They actually even fight each other a couple times.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Ooh, that's kind of a... Twins boxing each other.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah, like a... Come fucking see these guys who look exactly the same. Yeah, fun little human interest moment. Beat the shit out of each other. They do it anyway at home. Then in 1952, the Krays get drafted into the army, but things spiral almost immediately. When they show up at the reporting station, they refuse to cooperate, punch a corporal, and end up fleeing. You can't do that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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No, you can't. No. So just as her father had done throughout their childhoods, the brothers spend much of the next two years AWOL from the army or getting arrested and serving short stints in military prisons. As they do, they meet countless other men with criminal records, and these relationships spark the twins' interest in criminal activities and the promise of easy money.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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In 1954, when both boys are 21, they finally serve all their time and are dishonorably discharged from the military. At this point, Ronnie and Reggie's lives have completely changed. Their criminal records effectively bar them from the legitimate boxing world, so their one career path is now entirely cut off. And it's around this time Ronnie starts to struggle with his mental health.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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This is a big part of the movie, the legend movie, which is that these weren't just like kind of bloodthirsty, you know, sociopathic gangsters. Reggie was kind of a businessman. He was very strategic about what they were trying to do. Ronnie was schizophrenic. He was a paranoid schizophrenic. Oh, wow. He didn't know it, and he was dealing with the kind of effects of that.
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The idea that like you're you're going to get a bouquet of roses from your secret admirer at your doorstep is, I think, the thing that is. Yeah. has kept this country alive up until this year?
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It was basically, at that age, the onset of paranoid schizophrenia.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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He will later remember it by saying, quote, Wow. Yeah. Scary. Which also must be hard if you are starting to be a bit of a criminal or thinking of it. Right.
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Yeah. And it's going to kind of escalate things where it's. Yeah. So that's the kind of context playing out in the background. As the twins head back to Bethnal Green and soon pursue some legitimate business, there's an East End billiard hall called the Regal, and it's just kind of past its prime.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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The paint is chipping, the interiors are dingy, and it basically has a seedy enough reputation that, like insurers, won't insure it. But the Krays see it as a perfect investment. So they stop by one day and then the next. And then suddenly there's a strange uptick in violent activity at the Regal. Unruly guests start infiltrating the place.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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They destroy the furniture, smash glasses, threaten to burn the building to the ground. And although the Krays deny having anything to do with this sudden influx of bad business at the Regal... It all suspiciously works in their favor. They offer the billiard hall's beleaguered owner five pounds a week to take over the business, which would be around... Five pounds in 1940.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Now it's 50... Nothing fucking matters.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Because you also made the switch from dollars to pounds. So great job. That's why. Thank you. That's why it was so hard. According to writer John Pearson, quote, the day their offer was accepted, the violence stopped as mysteriously as it had started. Can you imagine that? Yeah. So the Krays give the Regal a long overdue makeover. They repaint and redecorate it.
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And soon it starts drawing a new crowd of patrons for the first time in years. Unfortunately, though, this includes members of a local gang who waltz into the Regal and demand money from the Krays in exchange for protection.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Not to these boys. But they weren't known. So it was kind of like, oh, you think you're going to have a billiard tall? Okay. This is called a protection racket, and in Reggie's own words, this is how protection rackets work.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And he would know. A gang would offer to protect clubs, pubs, shops, and the like from other gangs in return for a fee. Which is, when I was reading this part, I was just like, oh, this is... The mob. And Peaky Blinders later days. It's just like all the same thing over and over. Peaky Blinders later days. Yeah. Oh, classic.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Often, of course, the business was not in any danger from those other gangs. But if the owner of the business was to make this point and refuse to pay the protection fee, he would generally find that his business had been burgled, set fire to, or generally smashed up. By then, of course, he was more than ready to pay his fee.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Very few business owners went to the law because if they did, the matter became personal and they themselves would become the target of the gang. Right. And the law was like on the take, probably. Most likely. Yeah. According to what I've seen in Peaky Blinders, absolutely. Listen, we have infiltrated the mob before, so we know. We know. Also, Tom Hardy, also on Peaky Blinders. Cute.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Do you want him in the craze movie legend? Do you want him in Peaky Blinders? You want him in every movie. You want him. So the Krays were not at all scared of this gang or their threats, of course. In fact, when these gang members show up demanding their protection money, the brothers don't just say no.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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In front of their patrons and God and everybody, Ronnie grabs a sword and chases the gang out of the regal. A sword? A sword, I say. Wow. This is when the Krays have their light bulb moment. If they're tough enough to run off the local gang running a protection racket, why not just become the local gang running a protection racket? So they do.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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They form a gang known as the Firm, and they begin running their own East End protection rackets and armed robberies and arson and blackmail schemes, and they get rich doing it. I think the name for a gang in the 50s, naming it The Firm, is so cool and visionary. So good. Just need to say that credit where credit's due. So as Ronnie and Reggie run this gang, they also open more nightclubs.
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Hello, and welcome to My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hartstark. That's Karen Kilgariff. We're your sincere podcasting friends. Hey, hi. Hey, happy Valentine's Day. It's pretty much Valentine's Day. I mean, in your world, it probably is.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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In 1957, they open the Double R, an homage to their first names. Then in 1960, they acquire a popular West End club called Esmeralda's Barn Club.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yes, it means a trunk, a boot, a lift, a flat. They basically harass and extort the previous owner of Esmeralda's and then they just take over themselves. Then in 1963, they debut the Kentucky back in East London and And soon after its opening, the Kentucky serves as a filming location for the movie Sparrows Can't Sing, your favorite film. I love that movie. Early 60s hit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Just a late winter relationship.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Ronnie and Reggie are invited to the film's premiere, and they host its celebrity-filled afterparty. About this, Reggie says, quote, and surrounded by the rich and famous that I realized that we were well on the way to making it to the very top. I felt so powerful that night. I felt nothing was to stop us."
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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So through the mid-60s, the Krays open more clubs, and they become the center of London nightlife, and they're becoming celebrities in their own right. But their public image is complex. It's well known that Ronnie and Reggie are involved in all sorts of illegal activities, that they're wildly brutal to those who cross them, And that they're gaining the firm rules the East End.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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They're also running what's called long-firm frauds. And this involves setting up a fake business, ordering goods or merchandise on credit, then shutting down that business and stiffing the seller and offloading the goods that they didn't pay for for a quick profit. Sure.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And you still need to apologize. Well, here we are. Whoops. Is this celebrating or are we doing something? We have something to celebrate. What?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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But these crimes and the crazed criminal infamy not only doesn't scare customers away, their notorious reputation enhances their popularity. They seem dangerous, which is enticing to some customers. Duncan Campbell writes, quote, Can we, like, I want to make clear, though, they don't look like Tom Hardy.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yes. That's not what they look like. The picture I saw of the crazy. They look like boxers. They look like they've had their nose smashed a bunch of times.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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But also like very concerned with like slicked back hair. Yes. 50s like cool suits, 60s cool suits.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah. Yeah. Okay. They were very image savvy. Yeah. They styled themselves after characters in American gangster films. They dress in double-breasted suits with their hair slicked back, accessorizing with big chunky rings and gold cufflinks. They even form a friendly relationship with powerful members of the American mafia. Okay. So they're going for it. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Being an out gay man in this era is very rare. Wow. Homosexuality at the time is against the law in England. But Ronnie lives openly as a gay man. And actually that part of the movie legend is really funny because he is... Ronnie being the big tough guy, he also has this kind of like... He's very like takes the world as it is and very, you know, like of the moment.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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So anytime anyone tries to like insult him or try to... infer that there's anything wrong with what he's doing. He's just kind of confused. Like, I don't know what your problem is. Wow. Okay. I mean, that's just the way it's played in the movie, which made me laugh really hard. He's just not having it, really.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And Reggie, who eventually marries a woman named Frances Shea, he's more often described as bisexual. So I feel like Basically, they just do what they want.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah. And they're very strong tough guy brand that they've created is great for business and kind of goes, you know, it just plays and enables them to do whatever they want. Essentially, they're not clubs are increasingly popular hangouts for glamorous clientele like James Mansfield, Tony Bennett, Frank Sinatra, even Judy Garland. went there and became a close friend to the Cray brothers.
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At one point, she actually introduced the Crays to the Beatles. Judy, who knew? She was the link between. The Cray's mother actually invited Judy Garland to tea. And while she was there, Judy sang somewhere over the rainbow for her. But this is according to Duncan Campbell, the writer. This is the quote from Violet Cray. Judy was a frightened little thing, too skinny.
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That was her verdict on having fucking Judy Garland in her house singing. Yep. Wow. Tough. Legendary. Tough lady. I mean, violent. Yeah. So for years, the craze seemed untouchable. When police look into their crimes, the investigations always stall because witnesses are simply too afraid to talk. Sure. But of course, nothing lasts forever.
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While Ronnie and Reggie's rise to the top of London's underworld is swift, by 1966, tensions between the Krays and a South London group of gangsters called the Richardson Gang come to a head. While these two gangs typically steer clear of each other's business, Ronnie later claims that the Krays had spies inside the Richardson camp.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And those spies eventually report back that one of the Richardson's gang associates... who was a guy named George Cornell who used to be in the firm. So he was like an ex-Craze gang member that went to the Richardson's gang. George had been talking about a plan to move into the Craze territory.
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Ronnie also admits, though, that this rift with their ex-colleague was very personal with this George Cornell. Because he says, quote, the trouble might still have been avoided, but then Cornell did the most stupid thing he'd ever done in his life. In front of a table full of villains, he actually called me a fat poof. He virtually signed his own death warrant. Yeah, you can't do that. End quote.
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Yes, we are so excited to begin this partnership with them, this podcast journey. That means, yes, we will be at the iHeartRadio Awards this year. And yes, we will both be doing musical numbers individually. Did I sign something? I don't think I... Yeah, yeah, that's all in the contract. Oh, shit. Dude, full singing career starting for you right now.
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You gotta be careful. Yeah. Like in front of everybody and to a person where it's just like, oh, okay, well, then there you go. Yeah. So as you can imagine, things escalate from there. On March 8th, 1966, members of the Richardson gang, including George Cornell, shoot up a pub that's frequented by members of the firm. Ronnie and Reggie aren't there, but one of their associates is killed.
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So one night later, Ronnie's out drinking when he learns that George Cornell is posted up at a pub called the Blind Beggar that's also in the East End. And it's also in the firm's territory. So Ronnie walks over, walks up to George at the bar and shoots him in front of basically all the patrons that are in there. George Cornell dies later that night.
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After the murder, Ronnie says, quote, I felt fucking marvelous. Well, don't don't call him slurs then. I know. And certainly don't call him fat.
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You would just be fucking traumatized into infinity if you had to shoot somebody. Totally. Months pass. Ronnie faces zero repercussions for Georgia's murder because, again, no witnesses are willing to talk. About a year later, with the rivalry between the Krays and the Richardson gang continuing to build, Reggie brutally murders a low-ranking member of his own gang over basically a small debt.
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This man's name was Jack the Hat McVitie. I'm going to start calling you the hat for sure.
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The hat. You could just wear a little hat all the time. Always. Jack is baited into a basement. He's told there's a party down there that everyone's going to. You never go to a party. Especially in the basement. Yeah. When he gets down there, he instead finds Reggie and Ronnie waiting for him. Reggie pulls the trigger to shoot Jack. The gun jams. Come on. So Ronnie holds Jack down.
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Reggie pulls out a knife and repeatedly stabs him in the face, throat and chest until he bleeds out on the floor. And Jack McVitie's body is disposed of and never recovered. Wow. So that's where all the, like, glamour and glitz and kind of, like, superficial stuff really, really melts away for me. Where it's like, oh, that's cute and neat and Tom Hardy and hooray.
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But then it's like, you could do that. That's fucking brutal as shit. To someone in your own game. Right. This murder is seen as a terrible, needless, and very sloppy move, and it alienates the craze from members of their own gang. It's also out of character for Reggie, who's typically more of the strategic and thinking one.
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Years later, he blames this decision to murder Jack on his poor mental state because his beloved wife Frances had recently taken her own life. Oh, no. Yeah. Still. No, no. Oh, no. For her. Yeah. Strictly. Like the oh, no. Stop. Yeah. Firmly there. So both the murders of Jack McVitie and George Cornell happened in front of witnesses over at Scotland Yard.
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There's a detective named Leonard, quote unquote, Nipper Reed. Nipper. That's your new nickname. Is it? The hat. Nipper in the hat. Nipper in the hat. That's our new Tuesday show. No. So the Nippers are determined to bring down the craze, essentially. In 1968, Ronnie Reggie and about 15 members of the firm are arrested for various illicit activities.
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Reed's plan is to bring them all in and then flip someone from the inside. Yeah. He holds separate interrogations with each gang member and offers them legal protection in exchange for their testimony about the murders of Cornell and McVitie. And the plan works. After about a decade of getting nothing but silence, Reed is finally able to turn members of Cray's own inner circle around.
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who are finally willing to speak in court. The twins' 1969 trial is a true media sensation. Ooh, I bet.
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Thanks to all the damning evidence, and most crucially, the consequential testimony against them, it ends with both Ronnie and Reggie being found guilty of the murders of George Cornell and Jack McVitie, respectively, as well as all the unprovable crimes that no one would or could talk about up until that point.
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The Krays are sentenced to life sentences in separate prisons. They're both 35 years old. At their sentencing hearing, the judge tells them, quote, But they don't get arrest from the Kray's activities. Instead, Ronnie and Reggie maintain a very public profile once they're in prison.
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Duncan Campbell reports that, quote, once jailed, they devoted their considerable energies to their image as gangland stars, always open to visitors from the outside. The twins are able to generate a decent income by feeding stories to visitors who would then sell them to British tabloids and then bring the money back to the Krays in jail. Oh, that's smart. Right?
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They also have more elaborate ways of capitalizing off their imprisonment. In 1985, for example, Ronnie gets engaged to a woman named Elaine who's been writing him letters during his incarceration. There's always these Alaines. These Alaines. By this point, Ronnie's been transferred to Broadmoor, a famous London psychiatric hospital we have talked about on the show many times.
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Ronnie and Alaine decide to get married at the facility's chapel. But there's an ulterior motive here. It's not love? I mean, it could have been the greatest Valentine's Day of all time, but no, it's not real. When the tabloids catch wind about this upcoming wedding, the son offers 20,000 pounds, which is nearly how much in today's U.S. dollars? 20,000 in the 80s?
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Damn it. I was trying to send it to you. Thank you. I was going to say pathologically. $100,000 for the rights to cover it. Ronnie accepts the offer, takes the money, presumably. We don't have proof. And then, interestingly, his marriage to Elaine is over within a few years. Yeah. I mean, he worked the son. That's kind of great. Totally. That's a lot of money.
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These guys are really good at being kind of Robin Hood-esque. Yeah. Except for the murder. Right. Ronnie Cray dies at Broadmoor in 1995 at the age of 61 after a heart attack. Reggie Cray, meanwhile, bounces around to different prisons until the year 2000 when they release him on compassionate grounds because he's dying of cancer. Wow. Reggie dies a few weeks later on October 1st at the age of 66.
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Today, the Cray brothers are buried side by side in London next to their parents. And even after their deaths, the Cray twins continue to fascinate the public. And their twisted underdog story has inspired a niche industry of books, movies and TV shows and true crime podcasts.
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This includes the 2015 film Legend, where the great Tom Hardy gives a dual blockbuster performance as both brothers in one movie. If you haven't seen it, it really is the best. I haven't. I'll watch it. It's also just a really, in my opinion, beautifully directed film and very compelling, but it's just so good and he's so different. The two brothers are so different.
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He's not just a pretty face. He's not. Let's just start crying. There's also a 1990 film starring Martin and Gary Kemp as the Kray brothers. It's called The Krays. And if you're not old, then you probably don't know the Kemp brothers were the bass and guitar players for the band Spandau Ballet. Oh, wow. Yeah. So they were kind of already famous British.
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And then somebody wanted to make the Krays movie. And they're like, those guys are brothers. They're badasses. They wear jackets really well. Today, the Cray brand remains strong. Many continue to capitalize off of it. There are now gangster walking tours in London that roll through the areas where Ronnie and Reggie used to hang out, including London Walks at walks.com.
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Go ahead and get your Cray's walking tour over there. Full circle. And the pub The Blind Beggar, where Ronnie killed George Cornell, also benefits from the connection to the craze. Reporter Duncan Campbell notes, quote, you can take a selfie in the place where Cornell was shot and the pub sells crazed DVDs for 20 pounds and a crazed walk booklet for three pounds.
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Not only that, but I, in looking on that website, found that there's a walking tour called Darkest Victorian London, which I beg anybody that can get to it to please take and then write into myfavoritemurderatgmail.com and tell me everything about the Darkest Victorian walking tour. That's your dream. There's also a virtual walking tour of Jane Austen's bath, which I want.
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You have to walk on a treadmill in your own home.
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It's just kind of virtual like, you know, think about walking while you watch it. Done. And that's the story of the notorious East Ender twin gangsters, the Krays.
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Let's do this. Poor man's copyright. Don't try to do it. We're doing it. But it's also like you're on a treadmill, but then like a ghost from Scooby-Doo kind of just flies through. Right. Yeah. That's a great idea. It's great. Sorry.
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There really are some exciting new podcasts that are coming out. Yeah. It's great now that we have our feet on solid ground and we have our ad distribution all sorted out and we can just do business as usual. That's right. Now, here's something else we need to talk about in terms of love. People who love us sent us, because we demanded it, ceramic gifts for our ninth anniversary.
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And it's about to happen. You're like, and this is the American Revolution.
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Well, I mean, like, we do what we can do week to week. Right. All right. Let's do it. Let's dig in.
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I mean, I think it's that piece where a lot of us had the little factoid in our heads every time we flew, which is it's more common to be killed in your own bathroom.
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Right. But I think when we see any kind of air disaster in the news, it shakes that kind of comfort that we hold on to very, very dearly. Right. On top of this kind of governmental crumbling vibe, which then you're like, well, that's going to, you know, it's easy to then begin to write what's going to happen.
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And we have gotten so many that twice we have featured these ceramics on this show. Yeah. Now so many that we think we might have to split off and do a separate video featuring just ceramics. I think so. That's how many we've gotten. Yeah. But you guys like these ceramics too.
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Very true. Except I would just like to remind everybody that one step you take off the bath mat and there's a little water on your... It's like tile floor. I did that the other day and caught myself. I was like, I could have just cracked my head so hard. And it was like a fast one that I then caught. And I was like, oh my God, thank God I caught myself. That's terrifying. Yeah.
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Everything's terrifying, guys. Everything is terrifying. We can do this. Just walk slowly, you know, keep the ground dry.
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We're going to be doing this a lot. It's people, one million people are going to get on planes today and be fine.
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So we just wanted to really quick read some comments from the internet with you guys looking at these ceramics that we've posted because... Those were lovely too.
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Yeah, that was a Boeing. It would be amazing. No, it's just that it's like those the plane crashes from the 70s feel like a lot of them were Pan Am. Yeah. Or like when it's like when you hear the phrase Pan Am flight and then a number. It's like it gives me agita.
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No, I've gone on planes recently that had upstairs. Wow. There was something I flew. Italy, probably, right? I was upstairs when I flew home from Italy. Yeah, it was a biggie.
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I feel like of all the populations of people on this planet, pilots would have the least amount of patience with me. You know what I mean? Why? Because they're just so like, you know, kind of like all business, kind of very logical. Yeah, like almost like engineers. Are they engineers? I mean, they might be. They should be. There's no extra chitchat it feels like with them.
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So here's one from Deanna underscore M, who says, While listening to Georgia and Karen unveiling and describing all the ceramic art, I just imagine the respective artists listening, beaming with pride, and probably shedding a few tears at KNG's excitement. We lift each other up. Heart emoji. Isn't that sweet? That's so lovely. Yeah.
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But then like I would be on there just like, oh my God, have you ever seen anything weird? And they would just be like, I don't know what you're talking about.
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Was it behind where we were sitting? Yes. That was so cool.
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Crucial. Especially if you have fog. Yeah. But, oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah.
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That we go into manufacturing ceramic, very large ceramic microphone shaped pipes. Why not? Yeah, I mean, we are not busy. No, next stage of our career. Come on, everybody. A strain of...
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not making reservations for restaurants that are packed that you don't want to go to anyway and everyone's miserable including especially the servers the servers the couples the singles everybody loses on valentine's day stay home stay home nothing's ever good enough so cool when's the last great valentine's day that you've ever had
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That's right. People were really freaking out over the precious moments figurine. And the Polog said, I came all caps running over to IG to see the ceramics and they did not disappoint. What talented listeners. And then Cordy Gal wrote, please, I want the crock. The historical crock. We're using these mugs now. They're like part of they're part of it now. Yeah.
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To be asking while you're taking, like, mid of, like, oh, we're doing the thing.
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Oh, my God. I know.
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This is just like every mug that I saw every mom drink coffee out of in the 70s.
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Completely miraculous. Yeah. Told you you'd hate this. I mean, it's just so unimaginable. It's just so kind of like the way you're describing it where it's like that is literally how it would be where you're sitting there. You hear this weird noise.
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All of a sudden you're like, I guess there's things that are on fire. I better leave. Like you're in full shock. Yeah. It's just wild to have been like on the thing and staying conscious and getting off the thing. Yeah.
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Get up and go. Yeah.
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We simply must. We simply must. The one way we really like to celebrate is by eating on Mike. And so we decided that once again, we're going to try some of the weird Valentine's snacks that the I don't know, the confectionary world decides to put out every year for Valentine's Day.
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Here's what you can argue, in my opinion, is that it has nothing to do with DEI. Right. That idea that immediately blaming it on this buzzword bullshit thing. Publicly. Like, what a dangerous thing to say. Well, but that they're just constantly pointing to people of color and women. Yeah. And it's like,
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immediately right like that that is just so wildly irresponsible you just kind of have to separate it from everything that happened to go it's too bad there isn't leadership that doesn't measure their words and think about the effect of those words when they're talking about something this horrifyingly tragic right absolutely and that is the story of the Tenerife airport disaster the deadliest accident in aviation history
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And seemingly like one that all of those things coming together. Yeah. All of those. It's almost like there's no world where there's blame. Right. For all of those things being on the table at one time. To me, that's like if you want to blame anything, you blame it being 1977.
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Like, let's put those into place instead of just fucking... Well, and once they've been put into place, let's not take them back out of place and somehow then pretend that We never needed them in the first place. Right, right. Whoa. Told you. You really got in there and kind of faced, you really faced down a demon. I did. You did it. I did it. You did it. We did it.
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I mean, it's almost like that love story. of Robina and her boyfriend. We can pull that out and just have that be the theme and say that's a beautiful thing that sometimes happens among horrible circumstances.
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What's the positive piece about the story of the Krays that we can romantically pull out?
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Hey, look, the happy ending is that we're willing to face the bad endings. Yeah, and Valentine's is here, so go get some KFC. Yeah, eat as much chocolate as you feel like. It's your day. It is your day. And also stay sexy. And don't get murdered. I almost said don't get married. Happy Valentine's Day, everybody.
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This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck. Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.
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This episode was mixed by Liana Squilacci.
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Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.
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Well, Tonya, because so many people from our staff said that their dream item to eat, and myself included, was a Krabby Patty, like wanting the real thing. That's right. So if that is what the real thing tastes like, that's kind of hilarious. Yeah. It's candy.
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I mean... If there was, there's nothing mac and cheese about it to me, except for the look.
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But like, I was thinking there was going to be a really offensive kind of like nacho vibe. Yeah. I think it's orange flavored.
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Yeah, because you could maybe put little rubber bands for your hair in there.
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You can organize with old candy things. Okay, last one. Worst for last? I'm actually saving this mac and cheese one because in general it's kind of delicious orange gummy. Yeah, it is orange. You're right. No complaints about that. Now this is, like, is this a trend? A Tabasco-flavored cupcake? Apparently this is what all the kids are talking about these days. I don't want to do this.
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Let's just do it. Okay. Because I hate spicy stuff. Smells kind of good. Okay. Oh, my ulcer. Oh. That's a spicy cupcake. Oh, yeah. Here it goes in the back of my throat. Oh, my God. It's kind of good. Oh, what's it doing?
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But I don't mind it. But you don't mind it. And if you were on your old TV show, how would you describe this? You take a bite into the Tabasco cupcake and you get sugar.
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great what do we mean by great well maybe like an early peak one you don't have to include like adult relationships but kind of like i honestly don't think i remember a single valentine's day yeah there was a kfc on once but it wasn't vince so who gives a shit right you know that was more just like somebody that thought of a good bad gift yeah what about you Well, yeah. No.
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Immediate sugar. And then the back of your throat starts to burn. Starts to burn a little. I mean, that was weird. It was like the tasting in the front was full on red velvet. Frosting velvet. Yeah. But the experience in the back was something terrible has happened in the back of your throat.
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I'm not not nauseous, you know. I mean, that's the idea is like Tabasco desserts work against each other. Sure. And that's another installment of eating on a podcast. The thing people hate the most that we insist upon doing. I'm going to cleanse the Tabasco cupcake with a little bit of mac and cheese gummy. Gross. Well, some suggestions for your lover on this beautiful day.
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Give him any of those things we just ate.
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Yeah, the guy that hosts Hot Ones. Oh, yeah. One of those kind of people. Well, anything else? Any personal news before we move it along?
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Nice. Oh, I have a little something. I want to talk to one very specific murderino. Her name is Gloria Evans. She goes to Cal State Dominguez Hills. Apparently for two years in a row in Mr. Pope's class, she has at the beginning of the year told everybody that her favorite thing is this podcast.
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And the first year she did it, Mr. Pope, who is my very old friend, Chip Pope, said to her, just so you know, I know one of those hosts. And she was like, no, you don't. And then basically just didn't believe him. And then I just saw Chip at a party George and I were at together. And she was in his class again. And she again told everybody that this is her favorite thing, this podcast.
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And so then Chip just told me that kind of in passing. And then I was like, well, I'm going to set Gloria Evans straight. Sounds like she's one of the leading murderinos out there, certainly at Cal State Dominguez Hills. So, Gloria, I know Chip Pope.
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Everyone knows.
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Good for you. If you're going to immediately come and tell me the thing I think I want to hear most, I absolutely doubt what you're coming at me with.
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It was great. It was very fun. And Chris made a step and repeat so that people could go take pictures at the party. And the background said 50 years of Fairbanks, but it kind of looked like the Academy Award step and repeat. And then he made a plexiglass Getty Images floating thing so that when you took this picture, you had a Getty Images watermark on your picture. So fucking brilliant.
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The man is an artiste. Yeah. Happy birthday, Chris Fairbanks.
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This week on Buried Bones, Kate and Paul cover the death of investigative reporter Don Boles, who was known for exposing organized crime in Phoenix and who was killed in a 1976 car bombing. Tune in to hear how his legacy still impacts journalism today.
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And then over on Rewind with Karen and Georgia, that's you and I. We're traveling back to recap episode 32, which was the episode where we covered the tragic death of the singer Selena and the now infamous Zancou chicken murders. On that show, we bring you all new case updates and insights and secrets and Easter eggs. You should be checking out Rewind if you're not.
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I'm sure there's people that made nice efforts along the way. Sure. I was really hoping you had a story about it. And then someone was like, come down to the ravine with me and whatever. And they murdered me?
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Gloria, get over there.
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The more precious a little town is. Don't be a precious town.
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If you're in a support group for divorced people. You can't tell me that you're just not even listening to anything anyone's saying because you're just absolutely shopping the entire time. Oh, for sure. You're there like for one reason alone.
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Was anyone in that support group like disheveled? I don't think so. No. Unless it was not co-ed. Sorry, I couldn't think of that word.
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Nothing green now. Bodega, let's say.
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The contour is contouring. My sleeves are down over my hands like Jennifer Love Hewitt. Cute. Cute. Cozy. How was your break? It was very nice. I spent a month on my dad's couch watching football. Well, he was watching football with the audio going directly into his hearing aids. Nice. So it was silent out in the room. Yeah. So I could freely watch TikTok for eight hours straight. And you did.
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Pounds, are they always above us? I think it varies. Yeah, I guess that's true. I'm not an economics major. Well, let's see, roughly 500 in the 80s. In pounds, it would be easier. It would be like $2,500 today? 3,100 about, so close. Okay. So almost nothing for brutally and savagely murdering the person that works there.
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I feel like no matter what this is going to turn into, that by itself was a crime of opportunity where it's just like that's you're in a store and you're just like, I'm going to get everything.
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Like, let me get this while I'm here. Yeah. And if you already. God, though, it's just such a such a. That kind of murder, there's all kinds of... It's all horrible. But that, especially where it's very, very gruesome and there's a lot of blood, the idea that you aren't, like, as a human being, just totally in shock yourself or, like... Yeah. And just leaving.
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No, you're actually turning around and going, like, what do I need before you leave? Is just...
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Yeah. I've learned a lot of new affirmations. Yeah. A lot of dense bean salad recipes. A lot of watching people get their hair cut. My favorite. That's a good one. Did we talk about the man in Dubai? No. What does he do? He redoes women's hair. He like fixes their hair color and texture. And it is every time. And he also touches their hair so much that it's a little erotic.
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Because you you really did yourself a disservice on that one.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Well, because think of it that way where it's like, we have cried on this podcast about people getting killed 40 years ago. And it's like, this is your wife and it just happened. So what are you, three months ago, you have, you're not accessing any emotion whatsoever.
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From the number one smash hit podcast. It was only a matter of time until Amanda's whole world came tumbling down. You're not going to believe this. Scamanda.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Do they still do that? That seems like a very bad idea. It does, doesn't it?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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That turns my stomach where it's like, that's what your wife's life is worth. Like what is wrong with you?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And it is one of my favorite things to watch. And it's just like women sitting there trying to explain why their hair looks the way it does, which haven't we all done that in the hairdressers?
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Just to make it the correct context. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like that is we're talking about the 80s where it's like the way police worked back then was so internal and kind of like.
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secretive and it felt like individual theories would just get thrown up and we're going to do it this way and do it that way where there was no kind of like here's the based on these personalities the best way to kind of see that information here's the best way to be most effective it's just like it just seemed random all the time back then or like not based on any evidence whatsoever just based on hunches instead of like data
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Yeah. It's like, where'd you get that? But it's okay. Yeah. You don't have to tell us. No, you don't. Because you're so private and manly. And British. And reserved.
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I know. It does this one thing here. So I started doing these parts myself. And that's why this is orange and this is dark brown. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of that. And then at the end, he doesn't ever do the trick where it's supposed to be a part two. Oh, thank God. I fucking hate those. Always self-contained. Yeah. Very respectful.
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Yeah, she was just assuming that everything was kind of proceeding as normal, except for that I think after like five years. Right. I don't know.
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And basically at the end, he makes their hair look like natural, not dyed, whatever. And then he just kind of pulls his hands through it to show.
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They would never do. It's grandparent. Unless they were the worst grandparents in the world. But you know they weren't. Right. Like that. No, that's the that's the psycho husband. Yeah. It's like an evil manipulation completely. It's so manipulative to have them do that. You would actually want. Nothing more than to see your grandmother if your mother was dead.
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And how good the layers are. It is quality content.
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40, I feel like it could have been solved. It could have been solved. Back then. Tough. Yeah. Well, and also just, I don't know. Maybe it's just, look, it's 2025. Yeah. And we've been doing this for nine years.
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So it's real obvious to us. Yeah. It's like you read these and hear these stories over and over where it's like, yeah, that when it's not direct, then the indirect version goes A, B, C, D, or maybe E, sometimes F. Yeah.
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It's very repetitive. Yeah. These stories. Totally. And these what sociopaths do when they need to get their money, get their way, get rid of someone in their way.
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Also, it's a thing they say a lot, which is like, we just don't have the evidence. So it's obvious. We think it's this person. It's obvious, whatever. But if there's no one there to even give just, you know, eyewitness testimony, there's just nothing.
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Well, I'm glad it was finally solved. Me too. But let's get more of those in 2025.
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All right. Well, my story is different. Good. As they usually are. And just a quick trigger warning about French pronunciation in this one, because, man, man, it's tough. But I'll do my best. Mrs. McCurry, my freshman and sophomore French teacher, props to you. This is going to be bad. So I'm going to really lay it on thick just for your enjoyment.
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So this story starts around 1045 in the morning on May 26th, 1986. So we're also in the 80s again. And we're in the Montparnasse neighborhood of Paris, France. So if you've ever been to the catacombs or down Rue de Guerre, which is a very lively market street, you have been to this part of Paris.
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We're both getting makeovers. It's a 10-hour episode.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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There's also a famous prison there called La Santé, and it's housed many notorious criminals over the years, including Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega. Wow. But on this spring day in 1986, something very unusual is happening at La Santé. A rumbling sound can be heard overhead that grows louder by the second. It's a helicopter, and it's headed toward the roof of the prison.
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And then a man appears on that roof, and it's clear that he does not belong there because he's a 34-year-old inmate serving 18 years for an armed robbery and attempted murder. But what he is already notorious for is actually his three previous successful prison breaks. Today, he's hoping that this attempt to bust out will be his hopefully fourth and final time. This is the story of Michel Vajor.
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Wow. All right. So the main sources in the story today are a 2009 documentary called My Greatest Escape, interviews with Michelle that aired on Europe One Radio and archival editions of The New York Times and The Chicago Tribune. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes.
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So truly, the story starts in 1951 when Michel Vajour is born in a small town in northern France that I don't have to pronounce because Maren mercifully left the town name out. Good. So sadly, Michael's father is an abusive alcoholic. So when he's only four or five years old, his mother decides to give custody of him to his aunt Germaine. Germaine is a wonderful caregiver. She loves Michel.
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She cares about his emotional needs. At one point, she even gets Michel. a dog that he names Rita, the best dog name for a girl. That's good. It's real good. And Rita becomes Michelle's most beloved companion. But of course, this separation from his actual original family is very difficult for Michelle, causes a lot of emotional pain.
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But it gets worse because just a few years after Michelle settles in with his aunt, he She passes away from cancer, and he gets sent back to his parents' home, a toxic environment where he's deprived of the love and warmth of his aunt. And then one day, Michelle goes to school, and when he gets home, he finds out that his parents gave Rita away. Wow. No. Horrible. So he has a tough childhood.
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And I'll get you a big brown felt hat to wear on top of those extensions. Please, I need it. The salon. Girl, you'll be ready for autumn. Mom talk. Mom talk.
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The people who knew Michelle as a boy remember him as a gentle child who loved nature and animals. Over the years, he keeps several pet birds, including a falcon, a magpie, and a crow who he claims to have raised himself. Wow. Yeah.
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Right. So as Michelle grows older, he starts getting in trouble with the law. Never hurts anybody. It mostly seems to be rooted in boredom. And he will later say, quote, after 10 p.m., there was nothing to do. We were 17. We wanted some action. We'd steal a car and go looking for cops in town for a bit of fun. looking for cops. That's what I was going to say. There's your difference right there.
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No, dude, it's like you steal a car and your heart is racing and you're driving around town and you're just waiting to ditch the car. Wow.
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I thought they were like looking for cops. No, no, they were. I'm saying a normal person would be avoiding cops at all costs and dying. Michelle was absolutely looking for cops.
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So that might be a little bit of his, you know, issues with authority and parental figures. And adrenaline. And adrenaline. And where is Rita? We need to find Rita. Oh, Rita. Michelle insists he was only ever borrowing those cars. He'd always return them. But then one night when he was 19, he, quote unquote, forgets to give one of those cars back.
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And when the police show up at his house that he shares with his girlfriend and their baby daughter, he is arrested. So for a first-time nonviolent offender, Michelle is handed a very heavy sentence. 30 months in prison and a five-year ban on returning to his home region, which is where he's lived his entire life. Jesus, that is heavy. Yes. And he has a child there. Yes.
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We've been away from work. I don't remember how to do this. I mean, it's just chatting at the top, right? Right.
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His girlfriend and baby live there. And they're like, you're excommunicated out of this village, essentially.
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Well, the second income of stealing cars and then leaving them on the street. I'm sure he... He must have worked at the subway or something. But just for context, the typical sentence for car theft at that time was a couple months. So this was overkill for sure in a lot of ways. And it could be because that sometimes happens in small towns where it's like, we're going to teach you a lesson.
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Or we don't like your kind. Or you've been chasing the cops down and they're pissed off about it. Yeah. Have you been pissing the cops off? Now they got you. Yeah. Of course, Michelle is angry about this disproportionately harsh sentence. But then also, while he's incarcerated, no one from his family visits him. And then his girlfriend leaves him for a cop. Yes.
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He becomes very angry and disillusioned with the criminal justice system and authority figures and life in general. He serves his time. He's released when he's 21. And now Michelle is determined to start fresh. So he gets a job. He starts saving his money. And it's all with the hope that he can actually win his ex-girlfriend back and reconnect with his young daughter.
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But then one day, despite being banned from that region of France under the terms of his release, Michel travels home to visit his ex and their child on the way his new car breaks down. And the first vehicle that passes him is a police car. Because Michelle knows that he's breaking the law just by being in the area and he doesn't have a driver's license. So, yeah, a lot of problems.
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He panics and bolts. The police catch him and he's sent back to prison six months after he was released. Yeah. So this second stint behind bars is more than Michel can handle. Even though he's likely only facing a short sentence, he immediately starts plotting his escape. So in quick succession, he manages two prison breaks.
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The first one, he figures out how to just basically scale the prison wall, and he simply jumps to freedom. Parkour, man. Yeah. He is the OG parkour hero. How do you say parkour in French? It's parkour. In the other escape, he convinces another prisoner who works outside of the prison loading trucks to switch places with him for a day. Wow.
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And it's a really smart move on his part because working outside means fewer layers of security to deal with. So during this shift, he seizes the moment and he just sprints off facility grounds. Both times, Michel manages to stay free for several days before being caught and returned to prison.
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And then, of course, placed in higher security wing where he spends a lot of time in solitary confinement. Horrifying. Yeah. Like, and all of this because he stole a car. Yeah. It's just so, so not... Disproportionate. So disproportionate, and also then so... It's just to break you. Yeah, it's inhumane. Which is what all prison is.
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Well, I guess it means yours was right, too, actually. I guess they both work. You know what? Let's agree to agree. So even though he is in solitary confinement, he is not broken. He actually he's busted out twice. He actually feels like he can do anything. So he just starts planning escape number three. He actually would later say, quote, To me, you had to escape. That's what prison was made for.
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Yeah. I remember saying to someone once that I wouldn't be surprised to find it in a dictionary, quote, prison, a place to escape from. That's how I function. That's a fun way to look at life, you know? It really is. And I do think that then going forward, because that was his approach, You could kind of tell in the way that he would plan these breaks. So the next example is great.
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So he gets a new cellmate named Gilles. I will definitely mispronounce that going forward. The two cellmates become very close. Michelle will later describe Gilles as, quote, the brother I never had. And that he was the first person that really helped Michel truly understand what family means, which is lovely and like very sad and kind of underlines that how hard and fucked up his family life was.
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No excuse. No. But still. Yeah. Gilles is a more seasoned criminal than Michel with experience in armed robberies and more complex heists. And so that makes him the ideal partner when it comes to Michel plotting his next escape. So Gilles himself is not interested in breaking out of prison because his sentence is almost up.
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You have to wear a dress for your back.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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But he is willing to help Michel with his plan, despite it sounding ridiculous to him. So Michel's goal is to make duplicates of the prison guard's keys and And he plans on doing that with the red wax coating that you find on the little rounds of Babybel cheese. Okay. So they get Babybel in this prison. I guess so.
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And he's like, well, if I get enough of that, I can just put it in there and basically... Harden it? No, just like in passing, press a key into that wax. Okay. So here's the quote from Michelle. Quote, I walked around for months with a piece of cheese in my hand. So Maren makes this point in our notes. She says, I don't know if he pressed the key into the red wax or the cheese. Right.
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I didn't know you had to wear a dress for your back. No, this dress barely fits.
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Could be either one. Sure. To me, wax makes more sense. Yeah, the wax would make more sense. Because you've got to eat that cheese. Yeah. Back to the quote. Wow. So he Michelle claims one day that he successfully does it that way and gets impressions of the keys he needs and then takes crazy. It's insane. And then takes the key shaped baby bell wax back to his cell.
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And he and Gilles use that as their blueprint to file down a piece of scrap metal into the shape of some keys. Got it. Michelle says it takes them several weeks to complete this, but it works. He winds up with duplicate keys that miraculously function. I know. So for a third time, Michelle manages to escape from prison. Once again, his freedom is short-lived. He's captured and returned.
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This time to an even more secure cell. So now Michelle's facing 25 years in prison, even though he has never committed a violent offense. Yeah. He's 24 years old at this point. And he could be an engineer.
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Let him get into theater. I'm getting more of an artsy vibe from him. Okay. He's being held in a facility that truly does seem inescapable. He spends a lot of time in solitary confinement in a cell that's about 20 stories off the ground. Okay. So that wall jumping plan is out. There are three rows of bars on the windows and an armored fence surrounding the grounds.
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Michel's mental health definitely suffers in this environment. His cell is cold and sterile and lonely. He has no personal items. Everything's concrete. The lights are kept on 24-7. Ooh, that's bad. Yeah, really bad. He doesn't sleep much. Michelle says that the only movement he ever sees day in, day out is when his food gets slid into the cell. That's no way to live. Yeah.
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He says, quote, you're about as alive as a fly in a jar, except the fly has proportionately more space.
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So Michelle's life is bleak. And just when he starts to consider actually maybe ending it, a new thought takes over. The one that's always kept him going. That's the idea of escaping once again. Plotting his next prison break becomes his singular source of hope and joy. So basically he's like, well, I'm here anyway. I might as well try to do the impossible.
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So he starts looking for any kind of opportunity to see what where a silver lining might be in terms of escaping.
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Yes. Which is true for everybody. Yeah. No matter how big or small your cell is. You gotta have hopes and dreams. You gotta fucking, and it doesn't matter if they're dumb, who cares? It doesn't matter if it's crazy or cringe or anything.
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It's pretty fucking awesome. We own this table. We own this table. If we wanted to, we could take these microphones home tonight. Oh, my God.
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But Leon is like, what? No. Okay. So in looking for that opportunity, so he has to go to the courthouse every once in a while for like scheduled court dates or legal appointments or whatever. So on one of those trips, finds that opportunity. When he notices, he starts noticing basically everything about what the guards are doing. So he's just like, I'm going to track the guards.
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I'm gonna watch what they do, I'm gonna memorize it and study it and think about it, and then every time compare it to the last time. He's a theater spy. That's what he is. He's the leading man. The leading man. So he notices where they typically stand, how they search him, which rooms they take him through. All of these details get memorized, and then he pieces together this plan.
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First of all, he realizes he's going to need a gun, so he starts to carve one out of a bar of soap. Because that's what you have to do in jail. He has never owned a gun before, but he is able to carve a realistic-looking one out of soap that he paints it black with shoe polish. And then he adds some small—we're getting back into the arts now.
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It is a really good dress, though. Thank you.
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He adds some small metallic details like a round battery to mimic a muzzle or— and a nail clipper that he kind of affixes to it so when it's clicked, it sounds like a gun cocking. Come on. This guy is good. This guy, waste of talent. Truly. So he realizes the guards always let him leave his underwear on when they strip search him before his court appointments. Okay.
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It's a pattern that only ever happened in 1967. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Or 71.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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So when he's finished with his soap gun, he goes ahead and sews a hidden pocket into his underwear, which he refers to— How is that not caught on?
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The secret pocket. Secret underwear pockets. Right? Yeah. It seemed like you had one when you pulled that Kleenex out earlier. Because that came out of nowhere. I'm going to fucking trademark that immediately. It's your thing. But you have to call them like the Michelle line or something so that he gets some credit. So he refers to the secret pocket as the quote false bottom because he's French.
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That's funny. And then he stashes the soap pistol there before he's escorted off site. So then once he's at the courthouse, The guards tell him to strip down to his underwear. He then asks to use the bathroom. Then in the bathroom, he retrieves the soap gun from the secret underpants pocket, and then he walks back out of the restroom brandishing the weapon.
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The five or so people in the room think he has a real gun. He takes a hostage. He orders the guards in the room to drop their weapons. They do it. That's how realistic soap gun is. Wow. Soap gun. Then he manages to escape the building and the officers chase after him. So he gets away. Yeah, that's insane.
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And he cannot believe he actually pulls this off, mostly because he didn't think the gun was convincing at all. He would later say, quote, it wasn't that well made because when I left the law courts, it was coming apart. I'm sure it was just like a matter of surprise.
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That doesn't look right. Is it a nail clipper?
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Completely. It's all about his, may we say, acting on his side of like being convincing. Yeah. But you spot a gun in someone's hand and they're yelling all the right stuff. Yeah. You're not going in and being like, is it though? Yeah. You're like, yeah, it is. He got a gun. Totally. And also, yeah, do the safest thing if someone is brandishing a soap gun. Yeah. Don't get interested. No. Yeah.
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So this time, Michel managed to stay on the run much longer. He actually ends up reconnecting with Gilles, who has been released from prison. They start doing jobs together. Nice. So he escapes from prison, hooks up with his brother... from another mother. It's a lovely story. And then immediately just starts criming. Okay. What else are you going to do? Well, true.
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You're not going to fucking flip Le Big Macs. Yeah, you can't. You can't. They're royale with cheese. They're royale, yeah. And he actually, he's now involved in more organized robberies and using real guns to facilitate them, which he didn't do before. He also falls in love with Gilles' sister Nadine. Cute. Cute. The most French name in the world, Nadine. Before long, Nadine is pregnant.
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The two get married. He's out long enough that, like, he starts a life again. Nadine and Michel spend about two years together before Michel is caught again, this time following a robbery where a cop actually gets shot. So Michel is sent back to prison. This time he is held at La Santé in Paris, which is horrible. Where our story starts, picks back up from the beginning. Okay.
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The second his ass hits LaSante, he starts planning his escape again. Then he finds out that Gilles has been killed during a shootout following a botched armed robbery. Oh, no. So, of course, this has a huge impact on both Michelle and Nadine. Yeah. So now they together kind of are like, we have to do whatever it takes to be together again. So they put together a wild plan.
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Michelle is going to break out of prison and Nadine is going to pick him up in the helicopter that she will pilot. Okay. So that's what we were hearing overhead. Nadine coming in for her man. Nadine's in the helicopter. That's right. Holy shit. That's love. Some people won't even pick you up from the airport. This woman's like, I will learn how to fly a helicopter. How to fly the fucking airport.
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Sons of bitches. I mean, LAX is a disaster, but still. Like, I'd rather learn how to drive a helicopter than go to LAX. Oh, for sure. Definitely sexier. Yeah. So for five or six months, Nadine takes flying lessons every weekend. Holy shit. Under a fake name. Oh, my God. She has to pay about 2,200 francs an hour to rent this helicopter for these lessons. Which is, in today's U.S.
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The wonderful Mr. Ripley. Yes. What was it? The looking for the God mic interruption. The talented Mr. Ripley.
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900 an hour. Okay. Still, 900 an hour. That's a lot of money. Yeah. She always pays in cash. Okay. Smart. That's love. Some people won't even pay for your Uber from the airport. So, but on the morning of May 26, 1986, Michelle wakes up. He waits for that helicopter sound.
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He knows it's coming. He knows. He's just, I'm sure they're writing each other love letters in code. That's a spy. There's a spy thing. Spy thing. He's like, I went, she's like, I went and saw the birds this afternoon.
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They cost me $900 fucking dollars, your precious birds. Okay, so Nadine gets close to LaSante. Finally, the helicopter is just hovering over the prison yard. Michelle is down in the prison yard. Nadine tosses a bag out of the helicopter. Michelle sprints over to it, picks it up, pulls out a gun. Also fake, but more convincing than the soap gun. Okay.
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And that's key because if the couple gets caught, they don't want Nadine's charges to be any worse than they need to be. So they wanted this to be a fake gun. Yeah. So Michelle turns around and holds the gun on the rest of the prison yard and threatens everyone there. Everybody freezes. Then Michelle runs up to the prison's roof and...
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And because remember, 20 stories up and the helicopter is hovering now over the roof and it's tilted down just enough. So Nadine got this good at helicopter lessons where it's tilted down so that he can grab onto the bottom of the helicopter and hoist himself inside. This is a fucking action movie. It is the real deal. This whole scene just takes a couple minutes. So it's that fast. Wow.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Then Nadine in the pilot's seat flies the helicopter away. They landed in nearby school's athletic field. Nice. Right over to the high school.
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It's so compelling.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah. What more do you want from a woman?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It's pretty fucking cool. Yeah. He's like, well, you could stand to lose 15 pounds. I'm just saying. So, yeah, if they did have helicopter sex, they did it before they landed because there's a getaway car waiting for them on this athletic field. An accomplice is the driver. With that, Michelle has completed his most cinematic jailbreak.
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And if you're a kind of like state school dropout dummy like me who sees a black and white series and goes, I can't handle this, just hang on.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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So the couple plans on escaping France with their child to start over somewhere new. They're thinking maybe South America, but they need more cash. So Michelle and Nadine decide to lay low or as low as possible while Michelle carries out a couple more armed robberies, which is not laying low and never works. No. Why don't they know? Have they seen a movie?
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I mean, have they read a true crime story? No. So during one of these armed robberies, the police show up. The situation devolves into a shootout. Michelle is shot in the head. He survives. What? Because he's a survivor. What? He's in a coma for several weeks. When he wakes up from that coma, he's back in prison. No. I mean, yeah, I figured, but no. You got to figure, but still. Coma nightmare.
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Yeah. Over time, Michelle makes a complete recovery. What the fuck? You got shot in the head, bro. This guy is... He's made of Kevlar. Yeah. He doesn't give a shit. He's like, he's going to fight till the end. Yeah. Which I love. That's sexy. I love it. His relationship with Nadine does not last, unfortunately. Come on. Come on. Never. They never do.
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And also in every fight. I bet it was because of this. In every fight, she's like, oh, really? Yeah. Are you going to take helicopter lessons? Like she has the one up on him permanently. She does. Men don't like that. No. So from the English language sources that Maren could find, it's unclear why they broke up. Okay. But it's not unclear to me. It's not unclear to anybody else.
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What we do know is that Nadine does end up having to serve time for helping Michelle escape. She may have grown tired of that criminal lifestyle, I would say. Yeah. She laid it all on the line. Yeah. At this point, they have two children. Wow. So not ideal for the heisty, jailbreak-y lifestyle they are leading. Yeah. So they part ways in 1991.
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After a little time passes, Michelle starts exchanging letters with a young law student named Jamila, who hears about him on the news and becomes interested in his story. So eventually, Jamila will also try to break Michelle out of prison. What? What is it with this dude? Right? That's what I wrote. Look, how good is that D? Yeah. Is it helicopter lessons level D?
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What are we talking about? It's the real deal. The real deal? Those Frenchmen. Jamila claims this is entirely her decision, which, sure, in some ways it is.
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Yeah. Specifically, Jamila tries to replicate Nadine's helicopter escape. So the ex is over there going, yeah. I could do that. What choice do you have? Michelle, as you might expect, is fully in on this plan because it's his plan.
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And also, but the idea that she's like after the fact, like, no, no, no, no. That was my thing where it's like, so without speaking to this person, you're like, I would like to do this exact same thing. Right. Look, this is just conjecture. We don't know these people. We don't. But it doesn't matter anyway, because they are busted before they ever get the chance to carry out this thing. Sure.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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The new helicopter escape. Yeah, they're a little onto it by now, probably. I think they're looking, they're probably going to be watching those letters, looking for code. Sure. Jamila actually winds up getting seven years in prison. Wow. Serving five for being a part of all of that planning. That's a lot. I know. It's kind of crazy.
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Oh, Kunk on Earth, you've probably seen on Netflix. Some of the funniest, like, some of the funniest hard jokes I've seen on TV. But in that dry English way. So dry and so, she just doesn't like anything. No. She doesn't approve of Jesus or Van Gogh or really anything. And doesn't understand it. Right. Is that her fault? No. She thinks it's all stupid. Yes.
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But Michelle and Jamila still get married while Michelle is incarcerated. And then in 2003, Michelle gets paroled after making a very convincing case that he has genuinely rehabilitated himself and is no longer interested in a criminal lifestyle. Okay. And he attributes that change to Jamila's love and to his decision to adopt her religion of Islam.
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So he is finally released from prison after serving 27 years, 17 of those years having been spent in solitary confinement. That is so long. It's crazy. And they say that that informed that when he was like, hey, look, after that last plan in the 90s, he was like, look, I swear I'm not doing it anymore. So Michel is now in his 70s, and he's been true to his word. He's a law-abiding citizen.
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He is still happily married to Jamila. In fact, they've both written their own autobiographies in French. Huh. Nadine, who seems to have returned to living a private life, also has written an autobiography.
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And it's available in audio book and hard copy. That's right. The title of Michelle's book translates to Love Saved Me From Sinking. And the love, of course, is Jamila. Okay. But then there's a little helicopter on the cover. Today, Michelle is a very media-friendly guy. He's given countless interviews to French reporters and documentarians.
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And in one interview, he's asked by a producer what he'd say to a young man who wishes to follow in his footsteps. Michelle responds like this. Oh, God. Who am I to lecture him? I think I'd say go on, jerk. Go on, jerk, if you have the balls. But you have no idea what a high price you'll pay. And so if you lose your balls, you'll end up rotting in your own bitterness. So go right ahead, end quote.
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And that is our theme for 2025. Go ahead, jerk, if you have the balls. But if you don't, zip it.
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All the things, the three Fs we're looking for.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Wow. Great job. Thank you. We're back, baby.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Here, I got one. This is from Sid Scott Photo from Instagram. And Sid Scott Photo says, what am I even doing in 2025? Proudly stepping into the role of the first woman president for the University Photographers Association of America. Established in 1961, the UPAA is committed to photographic excellence through continuing education of higher ed photographers. That's cool.
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And then it says, despite the name, our membership spans the globe, and this awesome organization has built a culture of support and skill sharing like no other group I've been a part of. I'm excited to continue to foster equity, professionalism, and camaraderie in my new lead-hership role. And it's her as all caps. I get it. Did you get it? Yeah.
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Remember, when the idea of taking something on seems scary, look closer. You're likely being presented with an opportunity for personal growth. Sydney Scott, president, UPAA.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Nice. Tell her to pretend she's in college and then she can go join.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I think it is. Okay. Well, she went to college, so maybe... Maybe you can be a... She can be a... She could be a... What do you call those people? Yeah. Mentor? Yeah.
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How old is this person?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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If you're lucky.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Kiana, that is what we are looking for. That's the energy we're looking for. That was the energy we were looking for.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Please. Let's like, I think, I can't remember who I was saying this to, but my manifestation is like, I think it was Scottie Landis on New Year's. It was just kind of like, I don't know, maybe I'll get extensions and like become a party girl. Like, I just want to keep it light. Yeah. It would be fun to just have more fun and like be intentional about fun. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Especially if things are going to get hard. Yep. It's like, and we all feel we have, we've done enough fear. We've done enough like-
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Now it's just fun time. Let's do some fun. And die mad haters. Stay salty. No, I have to do it for real. Oh, no, that's not it. Thanks, everybody. This is our real New Year's. It's real New Year's for us now. So happy New Year. Thanks for listening. Thank you. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered.
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Well, you know what? I'll do a parallel off the cuff recommendation. And this is secondhand for my sister, Laura. But she literally texted me last night because she was watching Nate Bargatze's comedy special. And she was like, I'm watching his comedy because I told her, I'm like, you will love it and you will it'll do it for you. Yeah. Because she gets very stressed out watching comedy.
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This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck. Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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This episode was mixed by Liana Squilacci.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I get it. As many of us do. I'm like, you'll love it, whatever. She texts me and she's like, I'm just sitting in my room laughing out loud. It's insane. So we were just talking about this earlier. Like if anybody deserves the massive success he is attaining right now, it's Nate Bregatz. He's one of the like nicest, coolest. He's exactly what he's like in his comedy act. Yeah.
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And so talented. So talented. Again, those hard jokes where some people make it very easy, but it's like that's the money right there. And she is, that's her whole act and always has been. We got to see her one year at the High Plains Comedy Festival headlining this huge theater. And I just had never, I'd only ever seen her pieces and parts.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And to watch her do an hour, however long she did, 30 minutes or something, it was just like, I was just so proud of her. She's great. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I just don't know about that. I just am. It's bewildering because when I told you in like month four to get your hopes down. Yeah, you did. I really, really didn't want you to get run over by the show business bus. Yeah. I mean, I feel very grateful to have been as wrong as I was. Yeah. But it's so weird that all of my experience up until that point literally was like you could bet money on it.
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You could set a timer to people having like this little of success and then going straight down into a pit, like basically like crashing their car, getting someone pregnant, going to a mental hospital. We've done two or three of those things. We've done a couple. Literally. Yeah. We can do it all. Unless, have you been pregnant? I haven't been pregnant. Yes, a couple of times.
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It's not your business and it's certainly not my business. That's right. But I just, it's just so weird to me because I was like, well, if this is going to go any way, it's just going to go this one way. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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You know? Yes. I do know. Yeah. You know? Well, I knew that, but I also have felt that with you.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yes. We're going to have a new home. We're not going to be independent anymore. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It's been equally amazing and empowering and great, but then also this show in particular is too big to be independent. Right. Which is the weird irony of being in this business where, like, once you get out past a certain point, you, like, have to keep going and you have to keep going up. Right. Which is maybe the pressure you're talking about and maybe that feeling. Yeah.
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And, yeah, and the difficulty that we've had in the past is like, it's cool because right in this moment, we get to do a thing we could never do, which is talk about anything because when you're in contract with a company, you're literally and legally not allowed to. To have feelings that you share publicly.
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That's right. Oh, and also we have a podcast network and here's some highlights from that. We have a podcast called Buried Bones with two of probably true crime's biggest stars, Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes.
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And on their podcast this week, they dive into the first episode of a two-part series that takes us back to 1970s Baltimore where a teacher at an all-girls Catholic high school goes missing.
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Hey, that was actually one of my favorite episodes ever. Because we were supposed to record it on the day after the election. And so, of course, we canceled that. And then we reset it for like two weeks later. And we had a really funny conversation about that. And I didn't know her personally. I'd seen her and heard of her. Truly one of my favorite people, Sabrina Jolie, is such a cool person.
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So cool. So then on this week's episode of Ghosted by Roz Hernandez, it's titled John Gabrus is not allowed to use the Ouija board, which pretty much tells you everything you need to know about that episode. Go listen to that.
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Georgia just pulled a tissue out of her truss. If you can believe that shit. Also, really quick before we get into our business, we just wanted to say our beautiful friend, Dr. Dan over on Parent Footprint is leaving the network. We loved having him for the I think it's been five years, right? Yeah, it's been about five years. It's been about five years.
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And we were just so thankful that we got to have his parenting advice and expertise. He's so good at what he does. And he's a member of the family.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Leighton. Well, my guess would have been different if I knew that it was pronounced differently.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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So Buzzard's the same kind of thing. Bumblebee by the sea. Yeah. It's like, you know what? Can you just name a town? Keep it moving. It's pretty adorable.
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Well, that's where I went to summer school, so sure.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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That's Georgia Hartstark. That's Karen Kilgareff. We are in 25-25 mode. God damn it. We are. This is like...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Boarding summer school. I summered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Oh, I'll sing it for you right now.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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We can't do it. Oh, we can't. We'll get in trouble. Can you do it if you just sing it? Too shy, shy. Hush, hush, I do I. Okay.
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They did a great job. And, you know, it's easy for people to say one-hit wonder, but you write a fucking song that everybody likes. I mean, it's like one hit to you, but what about me and my heart? Also, yeah, it does not reflect the size that Kajagoogoo looms large like a buzzard in my heart.
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This is exactly right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Dun dun. Over on I Said No Gifts, comedian Rekha Shankar disobeys Bridger with yet another unwanted present. Will it ever end? Poor guy.
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The dream man won't get you if we stick together. head turned to the side so creepy also just a quick update so you guys know if you're a listener short time long time we like to take our MFM logo pin which is just the classic MFM logo pin obviously that we sell in the merch store in black and white and we dedicate like a period of time to certain charities and
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the money from the sales of that pin will go to. So the last one was the National Abortion Fund. We sold 192 pins with that one. So you guys raised almost $2,000 to donate to the National Abortion Fund, which is amazing.
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Their relief team has been here in Southern California supporting the first responders and the firemen and the families affected by the fires providing nourishing meals.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah. And then if you were just thinking of shopping around, you wanted to get a little pin for your lapel, then the money that you spend goes to a really good and at this point, very, very worthy cause. Right.
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It's less chaotic. Here's the thing. It's just like I have to transfer high school's senior year last quarter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. So it's like, hey, guys, are we going to be friends? No, no, no, no, no.
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Can I ask, is this a cold case?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I've never said them either. But there we are.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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That's true. Well, it's a different thing because Casefile is essentially as close to basically newspaper reporting as you can possibly get.
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I care about rugby.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah, then you got to be like the camp counselor and you're like, come over here and we'll have fun.
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It was insane.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah, that's great. Yeah. For 70s numbers. Yeah. Usually it's like, oh, they must have gone to a neighbor's house. Like, it just was not in the consciousness at all. Right.
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So he sends her out to some other police instead of coming here.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Oh, no, because my mom never let go of my neck at the grocery store. It could have been your hand. As we entered, she would go, what are we going to get today? And her hand would just very lightly go to my neck. Now, was that because I was such a wonderful, responsive, and listening child? No. She had to hold my neck everywhere I went. Like, where are we going to go?
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Definitely not pass the door. Look that song up, too, if you need a fucking jam to jog to. Can you give me the musician that performs it?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And then she would kind of very lightly direct me if we were going to turn and go down this way or that way.
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I was. Well, I was, you know, I was a real reflection of the times. Sure. Seventy five.
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So frustrating. And so kind of like, it's just how all of these are. We're knowing what we know today. It's just like gigantic mistakes at the earliest time.
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Nothing is better.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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No, no, you didn't write it. You're just rapping it. I wish I had.
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But as we just talked about in the in like the last episode, talking about domestic violence and how that is this kind of for so long, especially back then, it's really hard to understand now. But it was so dark ages back then growing up. That was back when other people's parents could hit you. Yeah.
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Other people's parents could slap you in the face if you were at their house and you did something they didn't like. It was so different. And so to see a dad, you know, do kind of whatever as meanly or violently or crazily as they want, it wasn't this kind of like, it wasn't as shocking as it should have been for kids at that time. You saw a lot more.
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Well, the problem is adults saw them, too, later. I mean, that's what immediately invariated me. It's like a 13-year-old boy wouldn't know what to do. What the fuck were those people around thinking for one second?
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doing something you'll only regret not doing something right it's it's yes totally i just as a person who was raised by the ultimate butt in lady i don't i have empathy for people who were raised by people who are like no no no no no because it's a very very scary thing Some people are scared to just be like, hey, I'd like another Diet Coke. Totally.
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Sir, do you know this girl? It takes so much, especially for women to do it. Yes. Where you're just like, oh, you're going to take on a violent man or even question one. It's just like the things it's almost like get a buddy, get a confrontation buddy. Yeah. Go or an employee that's there and go ask a question.
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Yes, that's what all I've heard is very interesting, amazing, like, almost like the story behind, talk about Instagram, it's kind of like, she's all about pictures and presentation.
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Yes, she is.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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You never fucking know. Well, and also I think it's The people who do it, they do it for a reason. They've seen stuff. Right. That's true. There are people who maybe aren't as inclined because it's easier for them to imagine everything's fine. And I think I was raised by two people who know for a fact nothing is fine a lot of the time. Yeah.
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Just grab a confrontation friend. I really feel like I just made that up, but it actually could work.
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You don't have to say anything. Just stand behind me. Yeah. I just need your back up. We need bodies here.
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She is. I remember being in high school and there used to be an American Express commercial where it was Martha Stewart lining a pool, the bottom of a pool with American Express cards like it was a craft project. And I was like, who's that? My mother was like, oh, yeah, she's some woman from the East Coast. Like eye roll, eye roll.
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Would it be like 50 grand?
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And we definitely probably both read about it in our choices of, like, should we do this one as we, like, did research. But I remember, not details, obviously, but, like, just remember the idea.
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And it was like she was. But it was almost like how to be perfect, how to have a perfect life, how to be perfect.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Well, it's always those things where it goes into investigation and then you don't hear about it unless they solve it.
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It sounds like there's a lot of material there to be processed and tested and looked into.
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Well, hopefully they're just getting put on a pile of things to be taken care of. Yeah. I don't know. And also, I think you're right in the way that it is really important to talk about them because there is action that could possibly be taken that needs to still be taken. Definitely.
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Yeah. I'm purely speaking from my own frustration and difficulty of, but you're right.
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What is wrong?
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But I think I've explained the piece of the puzzling that is what I'm in it for, which is you stare at something long enough. And after a while, it's like your brain goes, put your hand here and take this and put it here. And suddenly you don't know why you knew that this was the piece that went there.
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And if you do that, I find that if I do that long enough, it's this weird, like, suddenly the momentum of it just building suddenly starts to go and then it's putting itself together.
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Just to me, that's what you're saying to all the people listening right now. Put the pieces together. Yeah. I'll accept that. Thank you. And I will take that. And with that acceptance, I will turn this car around. Please, God. But it's not any less sad or difficult, but there's a little shiny light in it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And it begins on the morning of January 12th, 1888. What? Here in America. Okay. In a sparsely populated part of central Nebraska, near the small town of Ord. Do you know what else happened in 1888?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
Lincoln? Civil War. Was it Civil War? What is it? First of all, I will never test you on history. We'll never test you on history. Should I know this? Well, I mean, not particularly, but it's the year the Jack the Ripper killings happened. That's what I, yeah, there we go. All eights. When did Lincoln get shot? That's none of our business.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
We were failed by the American school system, and therefore we don't have to look back. You're right. It's not my fucking problem. Okay. So on this winter morn, a 19-year-old teacher named Minnie Freeman is walking to her tiny schoolhouse where she teaches 13 of the local homesteader's children, ranging in ages from 6 to 15. The schoolhouse is a one-room sod house.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
I already told you I've been kicked off TikTok. So like, I feel like I'm forced into like now I'm spiritual or something because I literally sit on them at the patio table on my back patio in the morning and kind of like stare off like, well, I guess this is a better way to spend time. Yeah. My sister and I were talking about it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
And a sod house was a thing they used to do out on the prairie because, you know, they didn't have any supplies and they just kind of had to do their best. So that means that a sod house usually definitely the roof and sometimes even the walls are constructed from packed dirt and prairie grass.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
And it's based on, I think, based on the Mountain Meadows Massacre. That you covered. Which I believe I covered. You definitely covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
On a not live episode?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
Okay. Okay, so here we are. So here we are, but it basically is that, where it's people living on the open prairie, settlers, homesteaders, making what they can. So like there was some of the, I saw a picture, Alejandra and Maren found a picture of one of these sod houses. And the one I saw, it was like the walls were made of like piled up rocks.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
And then the windows were kind of built into the holes where they left. And then the roof was sod and flat.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
But then there's also the ones where they build them. This is very Laura Ingalls Wilder, where they build them kind of into the ground so that they're like protected. There's all kinds of ways they were trying to do that stuff. But what we're saying is there was no like Western worn horse town or anything like that. It was like there are no supplies here situation. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
So the Sod House is a common structure found on the frontier that settlers can quickly build to live or work in without basically the luxury of their usual building supplies like, oh, I don't know, wood and nails. So Minnie's Sod Schoolhouse has a stove in it. We're not sure if it's wood burning or coal burning, but it was like a central stove.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
It has a couple windows and it has one door and that's it. Okay. So it's not fancy, but of course it completely serves its purpose as a classroom. And while it's probably drafty, it's of course better than any alternative, which is learning outside. And of course the warmth is especially important in the winter of 1888. Because this one is actually a brutal one.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
We are at the tail end of what's called, quote, the Little Ice Age. Where one of several years-long periods where the entire Earth is colder than average. And then that leads to more intense winters across much of the U.S. Interesting. Yeah. So even though it did snow a few inches the night before... The weather on this day, January 12, 1888, is very mild.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
So by the time Minnie's walking to school that day, it's gone from snowing the night before to climbed all the way up into the 40s. So that's much, much warmer than a typical mid-January day in the 1880s. Okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
For our friends everywhere besides the U.S., this is all Fahrenheit, and I do apologize because the impact of the weather I'm going to be announcing right now, there's going to be a math delay for you.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
So it's this kind of unseasonably warm weather that's probably why no one realizes a cold front is about to hit and leave an unsuspecting population in the wake of one of the deadliest winter storms in recorded history. This is the story of the devastating schoolhouse blizzard of 1888, also known as the Children's Blizzard. Oh, shit. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
You can tell it's not good for your brain to watch things for 10 to 60 seconds to maybe three minutes. That are this, yeah, over and over and over again. And just flipping, flipping, flipping. It does something to your dopamine, kind of like your set rate of satisfaction. Absolutely. So I think that's good.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
No, no. So the main sources that Marin used in the research today are the Children's Blizzard, which is a book by author David Laskin, and that book is heavily cited. Also, an episode of the Radiotopia podcast, This Day in Esoteric Political History, which And the episode is called The Children's Blizzard. And then, of course, multiple articles from the Omaha Evening Bee newspaper from 1888.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
Maren goes all the way back. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So here's a little scene setting to start this off, talking about weather back then. Of course, as human beings, we've been tracking weather since basically we understood what was going on around us. We love it. It's our hobby. We love it. It's fun to talk about.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
By the end of the 19th century, when this story takes place, scientists are doing what's, of course, compared to today, pretty basic meteorology. The United States has an organized weather service that's been around since 1870. It falls under the purview of the U.S. Army because of the Army's reputation for being meticulous and disciplined.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
So basically, weather forecasting works this way back then. Mondays through Saturdays at military bases and outposts across the country, U.S. Army Signal Corps officials collect weather data, temperatures, air pressure, wind speed, etc. And then they send it via telegraph to forecasters at a central office in Washington, D.C. Those forecasters in D.C. analyze that data. They make predictions.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
They send the information back to the signal core. And then those forecasts are printed in newspapers. You lost me. Here's how it works. Here's how it works. The weather goes out. So obviously the telegraph makes all of that fast and possible at the time. But compared to today, this is like one of the slowest ways to get any kind of news or information. I don't know, though. Dallas rains.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
It's going to rain tomorrow. And it fucking never does. Or it doesn't, doesn't. A lot of this. It's fun to gesture. Dallas, I'm calling you out. We all love a green screen. And yeah, full props to Dallas rains. Always and forever. Still working, I believe. Still doing it. I think so. Legendary.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
If you're from somewhere else and you have never heard of the legendary Los Angeles weatherman, Dallas rains. Yeah. With it. Get on board. He's one of the greats. I used to, in my studio apartment when things were very dark, I would get nice and high and watch the 11 o'clock news. And I was always positive Dallas Rains was high along with me.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
Because the stuff he would say, I'd be like, this is hilarious. I'd be like, why is this weatherman saying this weird shit and making me laugh so hard? Probably. Okay. So all this in mind, January 12th, 1888, in this same mild morning where Minnie Freeman is heading off to work, Army forecasters in D.C.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
are sending out reports via telegraph warning of impending severe weather across several states, including Nebraska, of course, which is where Minnie is, Minnesota, Iowa, and what's then known as the Dakota Territory. Okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
But I am so scared about the just absolute loss of information, shared information between Twitter being gone and which it is completely gone and the Twitter we all knew. And the thing that was important about Twitter was it was started by journalists. Right. Shorthanding news. And like so everyone else that was there, you know, later stages were all just kind of like hangers on.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
Because this is still before radio in America, the way important news is communicated when it can't wait for the next day's newspaper is frontier settlements hoist a flag to alert residents of emergency weather situations. Problem is that homesteaders out in a place like central Nebraska live nowhere near each other or a central community. Sure.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
So if people aren't nearby when those emergency flags are hoisted, they just don't know. And it's all kind of word of mouth. So Minnie and her students experienced this abrupt and shocking weather change around 3 o'clock, right basically when the school day is ending. So the temperature on what was a warm morning and into the afternoon dropped. Suddenly plummets almost 70 degrees. Holy shit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
And goes from the 40s to minus 20 below zero. No. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
And then, of course, the sky opens up. Ice and hail begin to pelt the sod schoolhouse and hurricane level winds kick up. Dude. So now... Basically, it's a strong wind that just keeps on building and then ice and hail and last night's snowfall all start getting blown around. They're all in the pit, moshing. That's right. All together. Nasty trio.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
So suddenly across a huge swath of the Midwest, countless people are caught in extreme weather. A schoolboy named H.G. Purcell, who lives in the Dakota Territory, now South Dakota, describes the situation like this. We were all out playing in our shirt sleeves without hats or mittens.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
Suddenly we looked up and saw something come rolling toward us with great fury from the northwest and making a loud noise." I never thought about that part of it. The storm rolls in. It's like it rolls in loud. It looked like a long string of big bales of cotton that looked to be about 25 feet high.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
The phenomenon was so unusual that it scared us children, and several of us ran into the schoolhouse and screamed to the teacher to come out quickly and see what was happening."
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
So it's hard to overstate the shock people experience on this beautiful morning that basically it lured people outside, many to go run errands on foot or tend to their land or, in the case of children, walk to school without their warmest winter coats. Some without shoes. Oh, dear. Or at least some in just in basically off-season shirts and sleeves, whatever.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
So then now they're out of nowhere caught in weather they're completely unprepared for. Author David Laskin reports, quote, even in a region known for abrupt and radical meteorological change, the blizzard of 1888 was unprecedented in its violence and suddenness. One moment it was mild. The sun was shining. The next moment frozen hell had broken loose.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
So it's the end of the school day, as I said, when the weather suddenly turns. So young Minnie, who's the sole adult in charge, 19 years old, she does not think going outside is a sensible option. At this point, hurricane force wind gusts are now pummeling the tiny schoolhouse and they blast the door right off its hinges. Shit. Okay. Okay. So for the time being, that's held in place.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
But it was news based and sourced. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
But now Minnie has to plan her next steps. She and the students all live at least a quarter of a mile from the schoolhouse. So she's trying to figure out, is it less risky to dismiss the children and hope that they make it back home or keep them inside to wait out the storm in a schoolhouse that isn't exactly structurally sound, has a dwindling amount of fuel for the fire? Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
and basically doesn't have any food.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
So teachers across the Midwest go through the same horrible dilemma because, like many, they teach in shoddy buildings or soddy buildings that are, of course, not equipped to handle weather this extreme. And many teachers believed that the better option that day was to dismiss their students and send them home in the storm.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
Minnie decides, no, she's going to hunker down and ride this storm out with her kids in the schoolhouse. But she's just praying the schoolhouse can make it. And as she's doing that, a gust of wind picks up the roof of the schoolhouse and blows it away. Shit. So now as the snow and hail and ice are pouring into the schoolhouse, Minnie has to make a new plan fast.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
With the front door, the only door nailed shut, she starts wrangling her students and throwing them out the window to get out.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
So there was a legend that Minnie tied all the kids together with twine. But that detail has actually been disputed by at least one of her actual students who went through it that day. Great visual for like the legend of the story.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
And actually very needed once, and I'm sure it probably came up later, once people heard the stories of what happened to the kids that did go home by themselves or even in groups. Right. So Minnie's plan now is to walk her students to her house, which is about a half a mile away. It doesn't sound that far, but in the middle of a blizzard, it would have been painfully long.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
And they're whiteout conditions, so it's hard for them to see any more than like a foot or so in front of them. If any child takes even just a few steps away from the group, they could be blinded by the snow, turned around, and then just lost.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
And the fact that it is not, it absolutely cuts into people being able to organize, people being able to have real time reactions to things like it just is holistically as I kind of skip around on my phone going, well, blue sky. I mean, let's all make the best of blue sky for sure. But. God.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
On top of that, the snowflakes in this storm are extremely fine and icy. So as they land on the children's faces, they're just freezing their eyelids shut. Oh, man. And Minnie's. Minnie's as well. Also, the sheer amount of these flakes in the air causes the snow to get stuck in their throats. It makes it hard to breathe. Survivors liken it to breathing in large amounts of flour or sand. Hmm.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
And David Laskin notes that experts have compared it to, quote, the smoke and ash rolling through the canyons of lower Manhattan after the towers of the World Trade Center collapsed on September 11th.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
Right. Like completely blinds you, but then also like seals your eyes shut with ice. Like you're just going against. But you can't take a deep breath without the snow coming into your mouth.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
They also make their way through shirt collars, pants, waistbands, even shoes. So the children are drenched, freezing, constantly slipping and falling as they walk. The wind is battering them. It's actually painful. And Minnie will later say, quote, I've never felt such a wind. It blew the snow so hard that the flakes stung your face like arrows.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
All you could see ahead of you was a blinding, blowing sheet of snow. Okay. So there are several well-known and very tragic stories that came out of this storm. For example, across the state in Seward, Nebraska, an 11-year-old girl named Lena Vebecky is dismissed from school. And as she walks home in this storm, she becomes disoriented.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
She will wake up hours later still outside, frozen to the ground. But Lena heroically musters the strength. She breaks herself free and she manages to crawl back to her own house even though she can't feel her legs. What the fuck? And in the end, Lena survives. She just loses one of her feet to frostbite. Wow. But she saves herself. Yeah. She's frozen to the ground. That's insane.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Wakes up and it's like, we're doing this. We're getting home.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
Up in Holt County, Nebraska, there's a 19-year-old teacher named Etta Shattuck. She gets caught in the storm while heading home after picking up her paycheck and As the temperature nosedives, she becomes snowblind. She seeks refuge in a haystack, and she is forced to shelter there for 78 hours before finally being found. Oh, my God.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
No food, no water, just hoping, like, hoping to live in a haystack. That's too long. So she lives then, but then once she's discovered, she has to go into surgery because she develops frostbite on her feet. And she actually dies due to complications from the surgery, but survives like that time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
Up in the northeast corner of the state in Plainview, Nebraska, another young school teacher named Lois Royce gets stranded on the open prairie. She's just run out of fuel at her schoolhouse, so she attempts to make it to the nearest home, which is only 200 yards away, with three students, all under the age of 10.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
But because of the whiteout conditions, Lois and the children can't see where they're going, so they end up walking past the house. And then they just keep walking. And the children, of course, are freezing. None of them can go any further. So they just stop in the open prairie mid-blizzard. And they're just kind of stranded just in not knowing where they are.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
Speaking generally about the children who get stuck outside that day, David Laskin notes, quote, Yeah. Yeah. Lois does everything she can to keep her students warm using just her body and her cloak. But the children die as they're pressed against her. And somehow she survives. But she has to have her feet amputated because of frostbite.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
Slow motion chicken pot pie. I mean, that alone is a huge that was one of the most perfect invitations you could offer me. What else is there? I just I guess I was always picturing of people like, here's us at the bikini party. Oh, here's here's me in my bikini again. Bikini from the back. Like that's what it always felt like that to me.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
So all of these tragic stories are from Nebraska, which is especially affected by this blizzard. But the storm touches much of the United States. According to the Minnesota Post newspaper, quote, the upper Midwesterners lost the most. The blizzard was truly a nationwide phenomenon. Ice skating was reported in San Francisco on January 14th. Which is, ladies and gentlemen, unheard of.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
Along with frozen water mains in Los Angeles, Fort Elliott, Texas registered a seven below zero temperature on the 14th. And for the first time in anyone's memory, parts of the Colorado River in Texas froze over. Damn. So it was extreme and insane.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
So back in central Nebraska, Minnie and her students are still out trying to find their way through this blizzard, trying to make it to any kind of shelter. And Minnie's doing everything she can to keep her students moving forward. Elements of her story are spotty. Some are disputed.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
For example, we don't know exactly how long her trek lasted or how long she and the students hunkered down before the children were reunited with their parents. Even their destination is a bit unclear. Some sources say the group successfully made it to Minnie's house. which was the initial plan.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
But according to an article that ran in the Omaha Evening Bee just days later, they say that they instead ended up at one of Minnie's students' homes, which is a bit closer to the schoolhouse than Minnie's was. Either way, they made it. It's the important thing. It's like the idea that Minnie makes this plan where she's like, fine, we'll just go to my house.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
And then like somewhere along the way, I bet you some kids like, Hey, there's my answer.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
That's how I like to, that's how I'll write it. Totally. But after several hours, once the blizzard finally subsides, Minnie and the children see the full extent of what has happened around them. Not only has the storm destroyed buildings and created massive barn-sized snow banks. Oh, my God. But it's also claimed many lives.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
For the parents of Minnie's 13 children, learning that their kids made it would feel like nothing short of a miracle, one that Minnie herself is solely responsible for. The Omaha Evening Bee describes the scene as one of the students is reunited with their parents, reporting, quote, Wow. So the extent of chaos, death, and disruption associated with this blizzard is huge.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
Across the Midwest, trains are stopped in their tracks, farmers lose the entirety of their crops, and their livestock freezes to death. But then, of course, there's the loss of human life. Experts say we'll never know the true death count because the population wasn't known as well.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
466 - Parrots Of The Future
David Laskin estimates that there were between 250 and 500 victims of this snowstorm, many of them being children who were either at school hunkering down or trying to head home after being dismissed. Because of this, the snowstorm is eventually nicknamed the schoolhouse blizzard or the children's blizzard.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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More people will die in the days and weeks following the storm from things like pneumonia or frostbite or gangrene from frostbite. As the word of this terrible event spreads beyond the region, an overwhelming sense of grief is felt by the entire country. And that's when this feel-good story of the 19-year-old teacher in Nebraska who saved her entire class starts getting attention.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And you don't feel pressed to post bikini clothes. Are you fucking kidding me? It's what it's been in my head the whole time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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The Omaha Evening Bee first reports on Minnie Freeman saying, quote, those who have braved the terrors of a Nebraska blizzard need not be told that it required courage to enable a young girl to breast those furies having in her keeping the lives of 13 little ones and the happiness of 13 homes. Shit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Those who felt and suffered from the effects of Thursday's storm need not be told that the act of that young girl was one from which strong men themselves might quail. Yeah. Love you, Minnie. Soon more papers start to circulate Minnie's story. Virtually overnight, 19-year-old Minnie Freeman becomes a much-needed hero. She's lionized. She's celebrated. She's nicknamed Nebraska's fearless maid.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And then over in Chicago, a music publishing company debuts a song about Minnie called, quote, 13 Were Saved. And it goes a little something like this. A one and a two. Hell no. 13, we're safe. 13, we're safe. 13, you always just do it. Hello, baby. The New York Times reports that Minnie receives letters and gifts and more. The Omaha Evening Bee actually describes her this way.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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They say, quote, Minnie Freeman is above medium height, dark hair, gray eyes, and a remarkably pretty girl. She is said to be an excellent musician and a possessor of a charming voice. It's believed that Minnie receives nearly 200 marriage proposals from strangers after this story goes wide. Get it, girl. Right? They're like, she's brave. She's pretty. Yeah. Come work on my farm. Totally.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Come have lots of children. Yep. Bear my children and do all that for me. Yeah. Meanwhile, over in D.C., government officials are trying to figure out how to make sure that no American is ever caught off guard by such a huge storm again. This only gets more urgent when just months later, in March of 1888, another historic blizzard hits the northeastern United States and Canada.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It had strengthened after working hours on a Saturday, which at the time, Army forecasters didn't work on Sundays, so no one knew this storm was coming. Right. It became the Great Blizzard of 1888, with parts of the Northeast seeing nearly 60 inches of snowfall and 50-foot-tall snowdrifts. Five-story building snowdrifts.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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This storm claims around 400 lives, including 200 deaths in New York City alone. On the heels of these two blizzards, the federal government decides to restructure the Weather Bureau. In 1891, it's moved from the Army's purview over to the Department of Agriculture, which has the reputation of being much more science-minded. and they begin tracking weather across the country 24-7.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Today, the agency overseeing weather is the National Weather Service, which lives under the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. They still track the weather around the clock and fortunately have the means to spread alerts and advisories to warn us about extreme weather events. What's that look on your face, Georgia?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Are they going to shut that one?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Why are we politicizing? Weather. These departments are important for this country. Necessary even. And the idea that people running them should have experience. Knowledge. A clear criminal record. A background. Basic stuff. Have run, have been chosen by the people.
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The best, right? The best. I feel like if there's any animal that's about to break over into human speaking, huskies will be first. They're so close.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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You're asking for too much, Karen. You're right. Let me just conclude here. As for Minnie Freeman, she stays active in her community for the rest of her life. First in Nebraska, later when she moves with her husband to Illinois, she becomes active there.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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The New York Times notes, quote, she was a political and social activist in Nebraska and Chicago at a time when female public figures were few and far between.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Minnie Freeman becomes the first female member of the Republican National Committee to represent Nebraska. She's part of a group that creates its state seal. She's even appointed as a delegate to different political conferences by two Nebraska governors. Wow.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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When asked about her heroic adventure during the schoolhouse blizzard in 1888, which earned her so much fame at the time, she matter-of-factly tells the Omaha Evening Bee that, quote, I feel that too much has already been said of an act of simple duty. Notoriety, I do not desire. End quote. Humble, too. It's like Case File style. Minnie Friedman passes away in 1943 when she's in her early 70s.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And that is the story of Minnie Friedman and the schoolhouse blizzard of 1888 and the survival of her 13 students that day. Wow. They made it. Wow. Good job. Thank you. Thanks to Minnie Freeman and all of the teachers of America.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Of what you believe to be a simple act of duty.
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But oftentimes, and especially in 2025 America, is much, much more. Yeah. We all know that. And so overlooked, but we appreciate you. We do. We do. Over here. Hi.
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Call my sister and tell her because she doesn't listen. Oh, yeah. That I appreciate her. Carol Craft, do you mind calling Laura and telling her she's getting a shout out? Thank you for being a teacher, Laura. Thank you. All right. We did it. I guess we did. What do you think? I love what we did. Yeah. We really did it. And I love what all of our listeners did today.
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This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck. Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It's all normal. Well, because that's all. It's basically the social media trap, which is want to be a part of things. Think we'd be doing a good job being part of things. Maybe stick your toe in and test that out. Yeah. I did that with TikTok. Yeah. Yeah. And not for you. But you're more of a, I have to be doing it. I was such a lurker on TikTok. I didn't do it. I barely interacted at all.
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Oh, I thought you were going to do a big take to camera just now. The way you spun around. I was like, yes, she's doing a bit. Yeah. What if just suddenly you're not and I start doing fucking... I don't need filters and then turn around and blow your nose into camera. Jesus Christ. What is this? Who knows? You know what it is? It's a true crime podcast. We have news.
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We have highlights from around the world. Is this where you should come? Hey. Nope. The answer's no. Maybe. Maybe.
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Everyone loves it. And it's fun to be like, hey, would anyone do this? And then with this listenership, the responses we get are like, hell yeah, and then some. Right. Watch this. Watch this.
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This is show business investment, ladies and gentlemen. And also, if you want to see what we mean by an electric Lazy Susan, you better get over to that YouTube page.
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That's the handle I was going to use.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Huskies are the parrots of the future. That's clear to all of us who care about TikTok. Yeah. Don't you believe in evolution, everyone? Sorry, breaking news. Do you know that I am off of TikTok? Why? What happened? Because I accidentally, the day that they said they were quote unquote banning it, I went and deleted the app because I was like, I don't want to stare at that anymore.
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It's very vintage looking. If you've ever seen pottery sell on Antiques Roadshow, it's one of these, but a big one usually where they're like, this has been in the corner of my kitchen forever. Right. And then the mugs have our names stamped into them with SSDGM. I'm sorry, because you're supposed to put this on the shelf behind you. I'm taking this for sure.
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This is absolutely beautiful. Okay, let's put it up. Kind of like breathtakingly beautiful. It is. Cassandra, thank you so much. Great job, Westerwald Pottery. Westerwald Pottery. It's like so touching. It's like a family thing. I know. That's amazing.
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Yay. Okay. This one's small. Okay. I'll start reading this one and you get ready to do the poll.
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Guess what part of the body this has been shaped after. It's a little phallic. Thrown after. The artist's name is Tina Cain, a.k.a. Teapots Pottery. Instagram handle at Teapots Pottery. And she teaches pottery classes at MCS Clay Studios in Clearwater, Florida. Why don't you rip it as she says. Hope you enjoy your ninth anniversary prize. It's a microphone.
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Hold on. Oh, my God. It says, hope you enjoy your ninth anniversary prize. It's one of my favorite pieces, typed smiley face. Yes, I make all the standard mugs, bowls, et cetera, too. It's a pipe shaped like a microphone pipe.
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Or legal tobacco in your state or family. That's amazing. That's hilarious. Amazing. Tina Cain. Thank you so much. Wow. Okay.
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I don't want to just look at it and not be able to access it. Did you cancel your account or you just can't sign back in? I deleted it off my phone. Oh, okay. Twelve hours later, I'm eating dinner with Bridger and he goes, I'm on the reinstated TikTok. And I was like, wait, what? And so then I go to put it back on my phone. Cannot. You can't? Can't.
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And they're glazed on the inside. And they have stay out of the forest etched on the back. It's like outside is skull bone feeling. Inside, beautiful glazed mug.
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Oh, and then I do a lot of, is that so? Is that so? Drinking out of a skull.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I'll hold it in the eyes. Is that so?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Just incredible. Gorgeous. And signed. Oh, wow.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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These are beautiful. I mean, I can't get over the talent. I can't either. It's real. Professional. They're professionals. They are. And they're giving things to us because we demand it that they do.
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Beautiful. Amazing. I love those.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Or if you got really mad because you're like, oh, sure, the ceramics people get to do something, but what about me over here with my hook rug abilities? You want a hook rug? I mean, I like lots of things. Okay. I like when people put their creativity and brains towards something.
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Well, before we get to the stories, should we do some highlights? Let's talk about our vaunted network with all of our wonderful podcasts on it, especially the newest podcast that we have, our brand new film podcast, Your Movies, I Love You. They just debuted here on the Exactly Right Network on the second episode is now out.
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And on this one, Millie and Casey take on the trope of the manic pixie dream girl and discuss the 2004 hit film Garden State. Wow.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I mean, what choice did anyone have in the 2000s though?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It was a hilarious at the time trope because I remember being like in my 20s at that time that you were watching a lot of stuff. You had justified that you as a person who had at least been around the block like one and a half times were just like, this is full bullshit. What are you talking about?
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storyline yeah you know in a darling adorable way that has no thought of its own whatsoever and like you were saying before like oftentimes those girls were not this wonderful force of nature right they were people who needed medication and or that were just trying to live their life and some dude is like right i'm going to project everything i need onto you and now i'm mad at you for not being that person 500 days of summer in a nutshell
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Because they're like, fuck you and fuck you, fuck you. If you like ditch them. It's basically the general practice of fuck you if you're American at this point.
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Coming to ABC and Hulu. Amanda Riley was a mother, wife, speaker at her church. And then she got diagnosed with cancer. A beloved young Christian woman fighting a battle undeserved. We thought she was God's gift, but she was a liar.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah. Cause you have that kind of early morning internal alarm clock.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Is that a lucky number? How do we feel about that? Okay. Oh, oh, the numerologists love 2025. Do they? Yeah. Uh-huh. Yes, because if you add all of that up, it goes to nine. And nine is the power number for girls that wear black nail polish, for girls that wear glasses, for girls that like books. Crystals? Do we have a lot of crystals going on? A lot of crystals. Nine is the number of crystals.
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And like a little window of time where it's like, oh, I had talked to her here and then I knew she was running to her car.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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That's definitely happened. But you wouldn't, what would you say to the police when you called? You would be like, I heard what I think is a gunshot. And they'd be like, okay, anything else? And they would hang up on you because they literally don't help you a lot of the time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And say, leave me alone. You would at least I would love it if there were more dudes that were like, I got to go out there and at least go at least look.
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Mind your own business up until a point. Yeah. And then when business gets scary and dangerous, go ahead and don't mind your own business. Right. A scream is a cry for you to butt in to my business, you know? Yeah. And as a woman, you can stay in your apartment and start calling the police. Totally. You don't have to go outside. Okay. PSA. Now we have that out.
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I mean, PSA that we're making up based on something we wish very badly didn't happen. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And sorry, it was his story that that's, that was the timeline?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It's so specific.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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You might as well say that's the only time I've ever met.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah, that was all acting. All that happy new year stuff.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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That would be insane. But why before? To me, that's insane, too. Like you're naming your boat after a friend of yours. Well, I don't know is which one. I'm just saying which one's weirder. I think after your friend disappeared and you're like, great, I'm going to go name a boat after her. After to me is like a tribute before to me as an obsession.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I hear you and I raise you after is making it about you where it's like I name because all you're doing is pointing out to other people that you named your boat after her.
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What's the last time you heard someone, unless it was their child or their grandchild? Totally. I don't know. No, it's odd. It raises flags. You know what it is? I don't like if he did do it. I don't like if he didn't do it. That's how I feel about this story right now. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Showbiz, baby. Get used to it. Drink your tiny Coke. Can't I have a tiny sip every time we're supposed to be talking?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I want to go find it and read it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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But you take the time to lie.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Okay. You're just more like recording stuff that happened.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I always felt like you were beholden to tell like deep feelings and secrets in a journal. That's why I'd always be like, I should start doing this for my mental health. And then literally two days later, I'd be like, just throw it over my shoulder.
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Absolutely. Do you know that my sister, one time I wrote a letter, a boy that I went to camp with wrote me a letter and we got home and I had a huge crush on him. And I wrote a letter back to him and my sister went and took it out of the mailbox. Oh, wow. Because she knew it was like the wrong move.
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Oh, that was nice. I know. But of course, I was like, I didn't know until, and then she told me like two years later, she's like, you never, because I was like, oh my God, I sent her the most embarrassing letter. She goes, no, you didn't.
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like heartfelt and real she was at camp she knew how not real it was okay wow that's actually really touching she was Laura was looking out the meanest most loving older sister of all time which is like please stop acting like this and I'd be like I'm not going to and then she'd be like okay you're gonna have to keep following me and picking up my trash along the way everything's a show come and fix it
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And like, it's a person you turn on your TV, you're seeing them all the time. I feel like somebody like a newscaster would be especially prone to a stalker in that way.
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From the number one smash hit podcast. It was only a matter of time until Amanda's whole world came tumbling down. You're not going to believe this. Scamanda.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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He could have just waited. I'm sorry. You're trying to say that stalkers wouldn't wait an extra hour. I feel like that is what they do. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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They wait all the time. It's stalking. Yeah.
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i mean i just immediately when you're like the kind that fucks you up it just reminds me of buying those big black pills on the counter at 7-eleven remember those like last minute impulse buys they call them trucker speed right yeah trucker speed but like who knows it looked like it was made of ashes like old charcoal briquettes and they're like yeah you'll totally get a bunch of energy from this and no does remember crushing up don't
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If anyone came and said, Hey, this guy bragged to me that he was involved.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Sorry, so ultimately the reason they went to him first was just because they were close?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And if he heard if someone told him she might be missing, he might run over there to see what's going on.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Which happens a lot. Yeah. When they're like, they just, the police decide this one person is guilty and they're going to, they're going to bend it all around to fit that.
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Yeah. If you're a youngster that has a real problem with millennials and Gen Xers, then heed this advice. Yeah. Stay away from that shit. Just stick to your yerba mate.
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And when you first said that she screamed, leave me alone. Yeah. To me, I interpreted that as that she had dealt with this person before. Totally.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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You won't leave me alone.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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The drag marks. Yeah. The clarity that it was something potentially violent, dangerous, scary. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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You're doing it right. Just it's fine.
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Good to know. Yeah. Good update. I think it's that thing of like, it's a, it doesn't surprise me that there are all kinds of theories, camps and people discussing it and fighting about it because it's all to the good of let us figure this out.
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So, you know, again, theorizing about why people like true crime, but it's like, if we all put our brains together here on Reddit or anywhere else, can you please just get this going one step forward? Right.
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you're fine oh my god i can't believe we survived the 90s god damn it i used to eat those fucking swallow those gigantic horse pills that were black to somehow think that it was going to like speed me up and like to do what i think i was trying to do some sort of dumb diet thing always where it's like if i eat these i won't eat spaghetti it's just like you know what Just eat the spaghetti.
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And I think you're right about when you're like re-interview some of those people or just like, is there anything that like, you know, that much later could change or break or, oh, this alibi actually isn't solid or any of those things.
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I mean, here's the thing I think about all the time in my frustration with your cold cases, because we all want a button ending, which is not how life works and how many, many, many crimes, the majority of crimes do not work that way. But then there is that potential of like, and here is the break that, you know, 30 years later, here's the headline we've been looking for.
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I just saw one on TikTok by a huge person on there. Her name's True Crime Mama. And she tells the story of this couple. It's the 44-year-old missing persons case of Charles and Catherine Romer.
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and yeah and they just and the guy with the sonar yeah what's his what's what's their name it's a man named jason serrata who has his own sonar equipment he searched the pond directly it's like behind this old hotel and then you can see where the driveway basically goes down so if they drove and like for whatever reason just drove and drove into that in this big old cadillac and it sank like you can just kind of see of like oh my god if it was like the middle of the night yeah
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They were drunk or something. And then just like, and that's that. If no one witnessed it, they wouldn't know.
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Well, amazing job. I mean, it feels very trite to say, I hope, I hope there's some breaking news the way there, there can be breaking news sometime. I really hope there is.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Say it again. Oh, I made all that up.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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did you think i swear to god i swear i've heard that the number nine means i mean that was it was an amalgamation of all this stuff that i just look at on my phone and see and whatever i believe it it is true that 2025 adds up to nine sure but that doesn't mean anything though turns out no it doesn't all the things about nine i just wanted people to feel good i want people
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to like, let's start interpreting numbers exactly the way we want to, to tell ourselves that we are going to be powerful and strong and exactly what we want to be. It's chronic positivity. Let's go into toxic positivity. Toxic positivity. I love it. Chronic, toxic, delusional positivity for 2025. Why not?
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Yeah, that's true. We can't because it's not the future.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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What I'm excited about for 2025...
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Can you imagine the dream coming true of getting another dog? I think I would like to do some more serious actually writing, like write a script. I think that's going to be my thing because I talk about it all the time. There's like seven I've actually said on this podcast. So poor man's copyright. But by talk about it too much, I now need to just actually do it.
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Eat the spaghetti. Eat the fucking spaghetti. Especially, now more than ever, eat the spaghetti. Especially if it's that kind that's got, that's made from lentils.
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And I think that I'm going to make the time, find the time and actually do it. Fuck yeah, you should. I love that. Thank you.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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What's mine going to be? It has to be far enough away that it's hard, but still like what you ruminate on. A thing that comes back to you a lot.
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No joke. I have a gift for you.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Because I accidentally bought two of this book. It's a book called Plantopedia. Yes. And Bradford Berlowski, who works in our legal department in the Great Lakes office, told me to get it because he is a total green thumb. And he was like, I actually just got this book and it tells you like water this plant, don't water this plant type of thing. And wherever I bought it, I accidentally bought two.
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Okay. So I will wrap it up as if I meant for you to have it and you can have it. Thank you. Thank you.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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What do you plan to do? Are you trying to make it sound like the other one? Yeah. What are you even planning to do in 2025? Yeah. Let us know in the comments of all our places. Yeah. We'll just like, we'll power number this into existence.
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And until then, stay sexy.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck. Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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This episode was mixed by Liana Squilacci.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I love the hard stark lentil noodle company. Try them today. George is going to be a vegan in 2025.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It's her new thing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah, I think it's cool. It's kind of like, it's the dark triad. Put your finger up like this when you start to feel it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah. Georgia loves acting and she loves storytelling. She's kind of a folklorist. In her free time?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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You're such a nine? Hi, it's me. I'm nine. It's me. Hi, I'm the nine. It's me.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Oh my God. I hope you had the worst New Year's Eve. I hope you drank so many wine coolers around 10. And then around 11, you're like, I fucking got to throw up. I have to. My little gold dress is going to be ruined.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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There's a tiny picture of your face on the package making a face like, I don't like this.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Seriously? I have had to eat a lot of gluten-free stuff with Nora. Right. And yeah, there's some that's like shockingly delicious.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And then there's some that you're like, I need a washcloth to get this out of my mouth because it's so gross. Crazy.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Okay, so don't tell your dad we said this, but we think you should join our fan cult. So you can get access to all of these crazy new videos that we're making. You get a $20 credit to our store and much, much more. So go over and visit fancult.supercast.com and get in on the action because there's a lot of action.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And if you would like to prove you love our podcasts, make it your New Year's resolution to rate, review, and follow us and them and everything exactly right wherever you like to listen.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It makes a huge difference. And then just go through and kind of like, you might want to delete some pics in your phone. It just lets clean that phone up.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Like a performance review. That's it. Thank you.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah, that's right. You can really, you can really push the needle in the positive direction. Sure. Or the negative. I mean, listen, we might've pissed you off. You might be vegan. Listen. Free will, baby. It's your life. Do what you want. You know, we don't boss in that, in that way, but we do suggest strongly with a kind of mean looking eye.
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Okay. This is one of those episodes where there's just one story. And this is one of those episodes where it's just your story.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I love it so much.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I don't have to do jack shit today. I don't... You know what I have to do? Say a bunch of bullshit about the 90s at the top. I continually divert the conversation into a weird direction. And... And boom, that's podcasting.
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Every once in a while when we talk about a state and then you say something like that, where it's like, it's up by Minnesota. And then I'm like, I absolutely thought those two states were nowhere near each other.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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You know what? I'm going to get you and me for Christmas in Christmas past Christmas future. I'm going to get us the United States map placemats. And then we're going to know these states by heart in one year. Okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Also because like, then you have to go to bed at 930 probably.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
461 - Heed This Advice
And you have to make sure no one wakes you up. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
461 - Heed This Advice
The one thing I do love about that though, of getting up and being that kind of morning person. First of all, it's badass. So there, you know, you're really doing it and you're in it. You have a dream and you're like doing all these. Yeah. It's this incredible dream. Living your dream. Yeah. But then you're also out with like people who deliver newspapers. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
461 - Heed This Advice
The guy that works at the donut shop.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
461 - Heed This Advice
A very select group of people are up in the morning when it's still dark.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
461 - Heed This Advice
And it's a cool, it's cool to like dip into that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
461 - Heed This Advice
The outward facing kind of like, good morning, Mason City. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
461 - Heed This Advice
You know, it's chilling to me, too, when you said that the news director immediately called the police because the news director has been in the news for, I'm sure, a long career. So anybody else that's just kind of paying attention to other things, that news director is like, I know these stories. We're calling the police.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
That's good. Okay, this is one of my favorites. Back when I was a kid, before the internet was widespread, the best way to look at businesses was the phone book. Great resource, unless someone accidentally submits the wrong phone number in their little ad. This happened with our home phone number. A doctor's office had our number listed as theirs and we would constantly get calls from patients.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
My dad reached out to the Yellow Pages to report the issue, but only the doctor's office could call to resolve this. So my dad located their office and informed them of the mistake. They claimed there wasn't an issue and the number was correct. Someone fucking doubled down and was like, no, you're wrong.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Yeah, I'm the front office manager and I refuse to admit that that's not the right number because I did it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Incredible. How frustrating for the dad. Like, I promise I'm not just making this up. Like, what are you talking about?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
What the fuck? Oh, my God. Yep. Yep. It wasn't long after that that the calls stopped. Once your office got full of people insisting that they had appointments, next day appointments, and getting fucking pissed off that they didn't? Yeah. Oh, looks like I did make a mistake. My collarbone is broken, and you said I could come in as soon as possible.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
I like to sit and think about the absolute chaos and angry patience my dad unleashed on that doctor's office just to get some peace and quiet for himself. Stay sexy and don't piss off tired dads, Allie. You're so right, Allie. And your dad was so right. Yeah. It's pretty diabolical and I love it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Oh. Oh, that's like third man slash matrix glitch. Yeah. Ish. Or like, I don't know, what would you call that?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Right. Okay. Send those to my favorite murder at Gmail, please. We want to hear all of them. And also post them to Reddit because they started it. Right. Sorry. And give Reddit all the credit. Okay. My last one's called elementary school beanie baby ring. Hey, it was the nineties and the height of the beanie baby craze.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Yeah, it's like the balloon, what's it called, release. Like, what is the fucked up thing that they're like, this will be a great idea. Yeah. in our small town.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Remember I was around 10 and my brother was eight and we were avid collectors of those stupid toys. Anyway, my greedy ass needed more money for Beanie Babies and at 10 didn't have a good way to get money. Teachers at my school were also collecting and would mention what Beanie Babies they wanted. And then it says, why was this something they talked about during class? And I saw my opportunity.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
I made an inventory of my brother's Beanie Babies and took it to school to share with the teachers. With enough interest, I started slowly sneaking and stealing his Beanie Babies to sell to teachers at school. Genius. Entrepreneur. One day, my brother noticed his favorite, a generic looking hound dog named Bones was missing. After interrogation by my mom, I finally fessed up.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
I was grounded and forced to buy him replacements, which cost about four times as much as I was selling them for at school. I wonder why they didn't go to the teachers and were like, you need to give those back. You know, please don't buy things from children.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
And it says, I think that dumb bones one cost me like $25 to buy. Lesson learned. Love y'all and the pod. When I started listening, I was a stressed out internal medicine resident and single parent. And now I'm a bonafide physician with a supportive husband and mother to three amazing daughters, 16, three and one. Jesus, H. So amazing. I so admire your altruism, advocacy, and vulnerability.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Entrepreneurial spirit. There it is. Stay sexy and don't be a greedy-ass motherfucker or an adult who buys contraband from kids. H, B, she, her. I like that. I feel like that's one of the points that you learn on this podcast is it's always the adult's fault. If there's an adult child issue. Yes. Like don't buy shit from children person.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Yes, that's exactly what we want.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Liana Squalacci. Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com. And follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder. Goodbye.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Oh, my God. That's got to be... 800 million?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
That's a lot still. It's so much.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
You got to tell people. You got to let them know who their neighbor is.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
So yeah. It's got a little radiation, but don't worry about that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Yeah. If you're going to keep that a secret from the town, then you have to double pinky swear that you won't explode the fucking place. It can't be in a neighborhood. No.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Well, no one said we couldn't do it because we didn't tell anyone that we were doing it. We're innovators. It's kind of on you guys.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Okay. This one's called an internet predator story. Hey, hey, hey, my name is Chloe and boy, do I have a story for you. When I was about 11 years old, AOL Messenger and Yahoo Messenger were very popular. My dad very graciously, and soon after this story happened, probably regrettably, allowed me to use Yahoo Messenger to talk to my friends.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
There were rules, however, to make sure that I was safe, thank God. Weekly, my dad would review my friends list to make sure that he knew everyone, and he also limited my time to about an hour a day. Most days, if I got a new message from someone, I showed my dad and got approval. But on one fall day, my dad had run out for something and left me alone briefly on Messenger.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
a message of hi popped up from someone I didn't know. And I still remember his screen name, which was my zip code in Wisconsin at the time. So it was a name and then a zip code. Due to this, I asked the person, hi, do I know you? To which he replied, no, I just found your profile on Yahoo profiles, something or other, and thought to send a message.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Okay. Yeah. They could tell because you had like a profile, you know, and it'd be like, and you tell about yourself and everything. And then you'd also be in like chat rooms that kind of gave away your age a little bit and that sort of thing. So yeah, it was pretty like not a ton of info, but enough info that they knew that you were a child.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Okay. Yeah. That like, this was the wild west. Yeah. Yeah. And then I said, I didn't have a profile anywhere. And then I asked, okay, how old are you? To which he replied, I'm 26. For a reminder, I'm 11. I immediately stopped communicating, making a note to let my dad know when he came home and signed off for the night.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
A few days later when my dad did his weekly messenger check, he asked me about the screen name he saw and I told him what had happened. I said frantically, I swear I didn't do anything bad and I meant to tell you and I forgot. To which he laughed and said, it's okay. I did the right thing to stop the conversation. But my dad used this as a learning opportunity.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
He sat down and told me men on the internet aren't to be trusted, especially older men and proceeded to message the guy acting as if he was me. Oh shit. Fucking dad is ready to fight. Dad's like, let's teach some people some lessons here. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Within 15 minutes, the man was asking for photos and then coaching, quote, me how to sneak out of the house and meet him nearly 15 blocks away at a local Taco Bell at 11 p.m. Oh, fuck. Even describing his dark blue truck and license plate number. My dad immediately called the police who met the man at Taco Bell and arrested him. I mean, Jesus Christ. I know. Like this was a predator.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
This was not a fucking mistake.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Right. A few days later, the police came to the house to let us know that the man had been released because sadly, at that time, there weren't laws to protect children being solicited via the Internet. And he hadn't done anything, quote, legally wrong. The cop apologized over and over, but said we did the right thing. So I'm sure he's on their radar by now, by then, at least.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
I'm forever grateful to my dad for teaching me that internet safety lesson, because had I been like most of my friends with parents who didn't understand the interwebs, I likely could have been abducted. I hope you enjoyed my story, but I have to get myself back to painting. Stay sexy and don't talk to creeps on the internet. Chloe."
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
We cater to every demographic. Can you hear Mimi purring loudly into the microphone?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Like, I just don't want to like, I want to protect her.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
There was nothing. There was a couple of board games with tons of missing pieces and dust bunnies. And that was it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Brooke C. She there. Wow. That's cool. Yeah. Let us know your weird childhood hobbies. But you know what I was thinking? Yeah. I wonder if Brooke's mom or parents... put just random hobby things in their craft closet and was like, I know this kid likes to pick up random shit. If I say, you know what, you should try, they're going to tell me to fuck off. So here are 10 different options.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Someday she's going to look through it. Go find it. Right? Yeah, exactly.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Hello. Hello. And welcome to My Favorite Murder. This is a mini-sode. It's your fucking stories and we fucking love them. Look, you're making us do this.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
That really would be. Oh, that was sweet. Tell us what your weird childhood hobbies were. My friend had the largest collection of Snoopy memorabilia.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
You just didn't know it. Yeah, that's right. It's in our blood. Okay. This one's called, oh, this one's called, Of Course You Can, A Petty Solution. Hi, Karen, Georgia, and the whole MFM crew. I came across your podcast a few months ago at the best time as I had already watched every true crime series, documentary, and movie on all the streaming platforms.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
So naturally, I've been binge listening to your podcast at an alarming rate. Okay. I love everything you do and all your content. Please never stop being your amazing selves.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
I was listening to one of the minisodes where a woman mentioned she would go door to door for surveys and one man played dead in his car so he didn't have to talk to her. I forgot that one. I do too. So good. It reminded me of the many things my dad has done over the years to get rid of unwanted visitors and callers.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 416
Aside from the time he cussed out the Jehovah's Witnesses that showed up at our house on Christmas, this story is one of my favorites. That's a bad idea. It's like you're celebrating Christmas, the most lovely day with your children and all these things. And they're like, hey, you know what? You shouldn't do anymore. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
It's not like nobody had it. It's like nobody gave a shit. You sound stupid when you say that nobody had autism back then.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
So pretty. Hi, lady. You want to go first? Sure. Okay. The title is I'm not going to read the subject line, which I can't believe more people haven't done. That is fucking hilarious. Full credit to this person. Yes. And then it says in parentheses, but if I did, it would be, and then it tells the whole story and it's great.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
What a name. Yeah. That was kind of fun to say. It sounded great. That anesthetist, you fucking knocked it out of the park there.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
It's a hard one. That's a hard one.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Tell them immediately or it's going to seem like you fucking snitched.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Because, you know, one of those FBI agents were on the take, too, and told them, would have told them that they talked to him. And then they've been like, why didn't you tell us that they talked to you? That's right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
That's so beautiful. Like a beautiful way to raise your daughters to be like, this is what I do. And it's totally normal. And it's just my job. And yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
And then it just starts. I'll be honest. The main reason it has taken me so long to write this in is because I absolutely panic at the thought of not having a good opening line. So I'll let you use your imagination and pretend that this one was particularly fantastic. Sigh. Here we go. I'll apologize in advance for being incredibly verbose. Yet another reason I have procrastinated sending this.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
And this is science, which has nothing to do with my morality or whatever the fuck, you know, or my religion. Or anybody else's belief, what part of the Bible they read. I mean, it kind of makes you love the mafia a little more, if anything. I know you love them so much. I really do love them.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Okay, this one is really long. It's my last one. It will probably make you cry. I'm going to guess 75% on Karen crying on this one. Okay, let's see. I'm not going to read you the title. Hey all, this is longish but worth it. It also may make you emote be warned. When my twin sister Ashley and I were 13 years old, she woke me up at 3 a.m.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
on Christmas morning, sobbing in my bed, begging me not to die. I vividly remember responding immediately with, Ash, I'm not going to die before you. You're going to die before me. I'm the one who has to figure out how to live without my twin. This was not that abnormal for her to worry about. I come from a very large, close family, and we had a few grandparents die around that time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Because it was the height of COVID, we were not allowed to see her in the hospital. Even though she was comatose, I still felt connected to her as I always have. She called it twin tuition. Every night for almost a month, I went outside to angrily smoke and yell at her wherever the fuck she was. I was so angry at not being able to be with her because of COVID.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
And I was terrified that I would never see her again. I wouldn't get to say goodbye, which didn't seem right considering we came into this world together. I'm already fucking... Getting choked up. I didn't want her to leave the world alone. The entire time she was in a coma, I would yell at her. I would cry at her. I would apologize to her for yelling at her.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
I kept telling her, give me one more year. I know it's selfish of me, but I can't do this without you yet. I need one more year. Come on, Ash. I know you can hear me. What's the fucking password? What's the fucking password? When we were kids, we used to always joke about what we would do if one of us was cloned. We were weirdly obsessed with it. I guess being a twin is like a clone.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
That's got to be a little jarring.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. How would we know who the real one was versus who the clone was? Her answer was always the same. Just ask me for the password to our bedroom. Because of course we had a secret password to our bedroom that only we knew. We had way too many siblings we couldn't trust with our Nintendo DES. At 1109 a.m. on a Wednesday in December 2020, my phone rang.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
It was a phone number that I didn't recognize. I answered it, said hello a couple times, but heard no response until finally a scratchy, rough voice said, it's Mariah Carey. Now stop fucking yelling at me. You heard me, Britt. It's Mariah Carey. Now stop yelling. She woke up. I immediately broke down and said, Ash, is that you? Silence.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
About two minutes later, a nurse picked up the phone and identified herself as Mary. Mary explained that my sister had woken up from a 35-day coma that they didn't expect her to come back from. In fact, at one point she had died and they had brought her back. She wanted to tell me that as soon as my sister woke up, they extubated her and she kept motioning for the phone in her hospital room.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Someone's been using the thesaurus. Someone got their $10 word out. In 1984, my parents moved to a huge house about two blocks from the largest local high school central. My mom was nine months pregnant with my sister, but being the badass woman she was, she still helped to move all the boxes and furniture, despite it being her due date. She went into labor four days later.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
When she was finally able to speak, she said, call Britt. I was her healthcare agent or next of kin and was always her main contact during any hospital stay. If you hadn't guessed it yet, Mariah Carey was the password to our childhood bedroom.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
My sister and I definitely had like, if you come back as a ghost, like do this one thing and that's how I'll know it's you. Yeah. I don't remember what it was, but. Make a plan. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Shit, you're right. Yeah. She heard me and she came back for me. She gave me one more year and I'm so grateful that she did. She journaled, wrote personal letters to her family and friends, and most importantly to her son, Jordan. We lost Ashley April 8th, 2022. I'm glad she's not in pain and I'm glad she didn't resent me for begging her to give me that year.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
I love her and miss her so fucking much every second of every day. The connection that twins share is very special and I feel very lucky to experience it as I feel closer to her now than when she was on this planet. I love you, Ash, and I'll see you soon. Stay sexy and don't forget the password, Brittany. Oh, yeah. You got me. I think me too. Let me sit in my emotions.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Where do you feel it in your body?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Right. Like theirs is a high note and we're just like ours is here, but it's still there.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Yeah. And like, if she could talk to her in a coma and annoy her, she can talk to her. From the great beyond. I believe that even though I don't believe in Jack shit, I'm a fucking nihilist. I think she can go out there, have an angry smoke and just be like, girl.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
And it, and there's a connection there.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Oh yeah. No. Oh, it's like, hold on. Let me write this down.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Absolutely. I totally believe that. That's incredible. Yeah, I download. I'm going to listen.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Listen, I will too. Okay. You have one more, right?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
This isn't actually relevant to the story referenced in the subject line, but my mom is going to sound pretty neglectful in a minute. So I wanted to make sure and paint her as the strong, amazing woman she is before throwing her entirely under the bus. Get her under there. It says right about now. This person should be a writer. Okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Because they're crying probably too. So they can't even see the phone number correctly or dial it correctly. Oh my God.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
As in like ex-receptionist secretary, I was like, yeah, he meant that. I've been yelled at that before, for sure.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
There were so many times I'd pick up the phone and forget where I was because I was a temp all the time. I'd be like, um, fuck. Can't remember. Um...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
I was just going to say that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Yeah. Like when was the last time you're like, no, you have the wrong number. I haven't said that in fucking years. Yeah. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
That's, I love, I love that. That's like such a great party story, you know?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Send us your story, your hometown stories of your party stories when things get slow and you got to share an anecdote. That's like a little, a little raunchy, but not too raunchy. You don't know if like there's religious people there or what, you know?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Sometime in the upper 80s, I believe 1987 or 88, my brother asked my mom if he could walk down the street to play at his best friend's house. It was the 80s, so she said sure and waved her six or seven year old child out the door to walk down the street. Just so normal. Sure. And didn't expect him home until the streetlights came on.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Call waiting was fucking incredible. Or whatever story at MyFavoriteMurder at Gmail. We'll take anything. There's also a mini mini-sode on the fan cult if you want one more story from each of us. And they're all still there. So it's not just one. It's like years of mini mini-sodes.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Almost a decade of these. Yeah. So go to MyFavoriteMurder.com and join the fan cult.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Elvis, do you want a cookie?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Liana Squalacci.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
And follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder. Goodbye.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
She never could have imagined that the next time the door opened, it would be two police officers on the other side telling her that her son had been abducted. What? Okay, yeah, this gets crazy. Apparently, my big brother was walking down the street as advertised when a woman saw him by himself and decided she had a grand opportunity to make some money.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
She had a knife and threatened my brother with it to get him to comply and come with her. She then needed to find a payphone so she could call my parents and demand a ransom for the return of my brother, who by this time was crying. Nevertheless, she dragged my bawling brother to the closest place she could find, the high school.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
There was indeed a payphone there, but to get to it, she would have to cross the practice field and get to the tennis courts on the other side of the main field. And it says for scale, this is like three city blocks. It is a huge high school.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
All with a screaming, crying child who was pleading with her to take him home. So fucking traumatizing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Yeah. He even offered her his own money. Turns out his not fully formed brain was concocting a plan to give her monopoly money in exchange for his life, which is equal parts funny and absolutely heartbreaking. Yes. As she undoubtedly shouted at him to shut up and continued dragging him to the payphone, the football team on the practice field began to notice something was wrong.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
I have searched high and low for an article about this, which I know exists because I've seen it, but because I can't find it and because I hate asking my parents and brother to relive this part of their lives, I am recounting this from memory as best as I can. The football players saw my brother crying and this disheveled woman holding a knife and correctly assumed he was in danger.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
They surrounded the woman and one of the players tackled her. As football players are wont to do, I guess. I'm not sure what part of scary lady with a small child and knife made the idea of tackling seem appealing, but that is indeed what happened. The police were called, probably using the very payphone she planned to ransom my brother through because 80s.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
And my hysterical brother relayed that he lived two blocks over and wanted to go home. Yeah. So that is how my mother came to find out that my brother actually never made it to the neighbor's house at all. And it says, because calling to make sure he arrived safely just wasn't a thing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
and instead was dragged by a stranger in search of a payphone, but was luckily intercepted, pun intended, you're welcome, Georgia, by the football team and returned to my mother.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
My brother doesn't like to talk about this incident much, but he did surprise me once when he brought it up and credited this experience for his obsession with personal safety slash weapons and trying to keep our family safe from harm. He is a wonderful man who would move mountains for those he loves. And he has always been there to bail me out of a few unfortunate situations.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
I am beyond lucky that our story didn't end in tragedy like so many others. And I am so grateful that I can find a modicum of humor in such a terrible memory. I think that is why I relate to your podcast so much. My family has always imbued humor into sad or scary situations for better or worse. Stay sexy and make sure your kid arrives safely at their friend's house.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Offer your kidnapper monopoly money. Don't offer your kidnapper monopoly money. Oh, wait, I've got it. Stay sexy and let the football team rescue you, Virginia.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
A hundred percent. And then like this woman probably had mental health problems, which is so sad. But like a knife to a six or seven year old child is just... Just no. Wrestle her immediately to the ground. Yeah, these teenagers...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
I don't know Belize that well, but shit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Oh my God. I'm just, yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
That's like a great way to just like implant trauma on top of trauma. Yes. You know?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
ssdgm and don't go looking for manatees margo oh my god have you seen the video i think it's in thailand i'm probably completely wrong about the animal and the place but in thailand they're these like crocodile or alligators who have these little webby fingers and they've learned that in this river if they lay on their backs and hide their body and put their hand up like they're drowning.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Hello! And welcome to my favorite murder.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
It looks like a human is drowning and the people jump in to save the human because they have these little like fingers and from far away, it looks like a hand. They're like, help me, help me. They've learned that people will jump in and like swim to them. And then do they attack the people and try to bite them and eat them?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Yes. Oh my God. These little arm hand thing. I mean, it's the creepiest. It's the tricky little bastards. It's nature. This is why. This is why. Yes. Everybody's evolving. The Bible. This is why. This is why. OK, I guess I guess we asked for people to tell us their weird childhood hobbies. Oh, good.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
The Mimi-sode, because Mimi's on my lap right now.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
I don't remember that one.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Yeah. Okay. So this one's called peanut people. Hello, all sort of day one listener. I started from the beginning in 2018. So whatever that is. Yeah. You asked for weird childhood hobbies. And I remembered mine that I think helped me figure out my career path. When I was around eight, we had this big plastic jar of shell on peanuts. It was old and stale and needed to get thrown out.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Kind of like those big tins of popcorn that everyone got for Christmas that eventually got emptied out and turned into trash cans. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm not sure exactly how it happened, but I was feeling crafty one day and I took the peanuts and started drawing faces on them. It started off as a bit of a joke.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
I would carry them around in my bejeweled purse and tell my friends made up stories about the peanut people. Some laughed with me. A lot probably laughed at me. Either way, it was a hit. So I expanded on this idea. Either way, it was a hit. It does not track from what you just said. People are laughing. I think that's like a pure hearted, lovely thing is just like, you know what?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
So I expanded on the idea. I created a house for the peanut people. I made walls and floors out of cardboard, painted it, and even created furniture. It was clearly more than a joke to me. I got really into building homes for the peanut people. I did the same thing but with troll dolls. My friend and I were obsessed. We built like elaborate houses for them. That's fun. It became a peanut village.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
Here, let me get her on camera for you so you can have something nice to look at rather than my... Something wonderful. Fucking face. Okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
It probably lasted a year, but the passion for designing buildings never really went away. So here I am, 21 years later, designing buildings at an architecture firm. Wow. What? Amazing. When people ask me what got me interested in architecture, I do not tell them. But I told you, smiley face. Yay. As I found out in 2018 at one of my first internships, the job is like any and can get pretty boring.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 420
So I have always appreciated having you guys in my ear. Stay sexy and throw out your stale peanuts. Kelsey, she, her. Wow.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
I'm just staggered at it was 2008. Yeah. So it's like this idea, there were people nearby and there was computers nearby and things that could have helped this. Like a GPS. Just learn it. That was like me getting that fucking car and then getting into it and being like, I don't know how to drive this car.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
It sounds like literally I've been listening for seven days and I've dreamed of writing an email forever.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Yeah, exactly. Let's keep it on the ground. And also, I think with Lawn Chair Larry's story, it's just like, do we all need to be told often that you can't control balloons? Right. And they just go, if you get a bunch.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
I don't know. Like, 2008 seems like we're due. Hey, everybody, if you have some sort of plan to get a bunch of balloons. Well, there's Balloon Boy. Remember? Balloon Boy was fake, though. Yeah. Remember that? Yeah. That was... That was tragic, actually, because that was weird stage parents putting their child at the center or something. It was.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
I feel like the way America reacted to Balloon Boy, it was all like, oh, no, look away. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Yeah. It's very sad. Oh, anyway, you interrupted my great announcement. What? Hey, if you were thinking of raising money or just going on a trip with balloons, don't do it. You won't be able to control them. Okay. This is our public service announcement. Don't do it. Fucking the end. Listen. Okay. We'll work on that public service announcement. We'll do another one next year that's more effective.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Okay. This is funny sibling story. Hey, ladies. Love what you do. I'm the youngest of three daughters, and growing up, I always wanted to do whatever my sisters were doing. It was hard for them because I was so much younger, and they really wanted nothing to do with me. My oldest sister, Kaylee, came up with a game for us to play. Okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
for us to play together that was a good compromise for everyone called Servant and Princess. From the title, you can probably guess how it went. Kaylee would be the princess and I would be the servant doing whatever she asked me to do. In return, I would get a quarter as a reward for all my work. I loved this game and I would ask her to play it with me as often as she would allow.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
If her friends came over, even better for me because I got to play with the big kids and would have more princesses to serve. That's so sweet. I look back and laugh at how funny and brilliant she was for coming up with this game where she got catered to all day. Yeah. And I felt included and loved the time I got to spend with her. Now that we're all grown up, we're very close.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
And I feel lucky to have her as a sister, even though we didn't really get along for the first 18 years of my life. Isn't that every sister story?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Yeah. And then it just says, thanks for all that you do, Tori. That's cute.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
I mean, and my big sister sent it to me. Yeah. Like this is my favorite. And I, the second, because I knew, you know, it's coming. Say, please may I blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Fuck that girl. And she makes her do it a couple times and keeps adjusting it. Do it perfectly. Fuck. Okay. Little sisters. It's so fucking hard. It's the funniest. And also, they're always going to do that to you over and over. Right. And then it's like, oh, the youngest ones are always so wild. Right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
These frames were ranked as the number one digital picture frame by Wirecutter, and here's why. They're incredibly easy to set up, update, and enjoy. Oriframes features a high-resolution display showcasing photos in vivid detail. Users can also update their frames from anywhere using the Aura app, making it convenient to add new memories.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Plus, you can preload them with photos and a gift message, making it personal right out of the box. I gotta say, I went home for Thanksgiving, visited my dad, and that Aura frame is sitting on the counter facing him in the living room.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
So he's watching football in his lazy boy recliner, but he can look right over here and it's like, my niece when she was five years old, my niece when she was two years old, my niece when she was just born. A picture from the 70s. My niece, you know, at the prom.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
And the principal and the secretary, they were just like, thanks so much, buddy.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Oh, my God. Thank God for this kid's little bladder, for Bailey's little bladder. And also just for hauling ass, like understanding. Don't stand there in freeze mode. Yeah. This is something's off.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
First of all, gorgeous intro of that email. Yes, like the structure of that story. Just to like, clearly you're way ahead of the other second graders.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Let me tell you why I have it. The declaration, though, of like, it's me, the child hero. It's me. It's so good. But also interesting. You didn't peak at seven years old, Bailey.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
You just do the kind of work that goes unappreciated all the time, which is you are a logical, level-headed thinker that probably is like, oh, if you leave the dinner plans for your group of friends to that person, they'll go where they want to go, which doesn't have the right seating. Right. You take over and you're like, here we go. This is where we're going.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Yeah. You're the day-to-day, level-headed, don't panic second grader that's grown into, I'm assuming, a beautiful young woman. Eye of the tiger, really. Right? Congratulations. I wish I had a little ribbon.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
A little ribbon medal? Was George Washington's bus on it? Did I say busts? No. Bus? George Washington bussing on it? Bussing. Okay. I'm last. I got a look just now from Karen. That means someone's going to cry? Okay. Someone. Kid Pastimes Playing in the Sand, A Strange Brother Edition. Hello from the hellscape that is the end of 2024. Hi. Hi. No one's going to save us but ourselves.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Create genuine community. Find your support system. I'm reading an email right now, just so you know. I'm reading from the first paragraph of this email. They're opening up fucking hard and fast.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
strong they're coming in saying exactly what needs to be heard create genuine community find your support system give what you can and as the ever fabulous divine said be twice as gay do twice as many crimes Fuck yes. I love it. What an opening. Yeah. You asked us for stories of what we did growing up to pass the time. My older brother is two and a half years older than me.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
He would have a toy gun and I'd have my water baby. And then in parentheses it says, a plastic baby filled with water.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
No, I think it was like a... Well, he had a water gun. Oh, a water gun. Sorry, my assumption was that she would use that baby to squirt water. But I think now that I reread it, you're right. It's just a toy gun. It's not a water gun toy gun. Let's keep going and I'll help you out. Okay. And sometimes the Terminator would hang out with the Barbies in Rainbow Valley.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
And then that says, the stairs when a crystal in the window cascaded rainbows all over the carpet. But my favorite thing we did was play in the sand patio out back. My dad was supposed to make my mom a flagstone patio, and he finally hired someone to do it only 40-some years after he promised. Consequently, we had a huge sand pit. We would dig a complex riverbed.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
We stacked wooden logs for the spout. of the water hose as our water fell. Once the stream was ready, my brother would run to the side of the house to turn on the water. He'd run back as fast as he could so we could watch our creation come to life. Once we even brought crawdads, we got at a real stream to put in ours, only for them to burrow deep in the sand and never be found.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Yep. Good luck in your sandpit, children. My only sibling, my brother and I drifted apart as drugs took over his life as a teenager. Now addicted and living on the streets, I haven't spoken to him in a long time. Writing in, I'm struck by what an amazing person he was. Most brothers would send the little sister to turn on the water. He wanted me to see it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Thank you for reminiscing playing stream with me as I can't do it with him. Be gay, do crimes. Anonymous. She, her. Anonymous. Come on. That's a sweet one. Here's the thing. Because seriously, the beginning of that email is so smart and good and strong. Yeah. And it's like, and this is, I think, those kinds of memories and things are truly like the glue inside.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
I feel like those kinds of reminding, even when there's loss, there's beauty. That's why you miss him.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
And it's the idea, like, it's a great email anyway, but the idea of that they get to understand that that's what their brother did for them is so beautiful.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Make us, well, you know what it is? Make Georgia cry. It's easy to make me cry. Make Georgia cry. Yeah, do it. I dare you. Good luck. Nothing, nothing sad about animals. No, no, no. I feel like we have to make rules now. No, everyone knows that. Do it. We mean poignant crying, not like, oh, my God. Don't call me names. Oh, my God. Please don't bully Georgia through email.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
That's the way to get her. Don't do it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
This has been an Exactly Right production.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
That's just a straight up tragedy.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Let's see if they have a point. Let's see if we're going to get somewhere.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Right. What would have been the problem with going down and rinsing that handprint off?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Yeah, that for some reason no one is taking care of. Yeah, and that you have to ask about before they'll tell you about it. They'll let you as a child wander down into a darkened basement and discover it yourself. Right. And not be like, we want to keep that there as a remembrance or anything. It's just like, hey, go find it. It's like write a passage.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
You're standing by it? I'm standing by it. Nice. Stand by your email. Yeah. I mean, I like it. Yeah. It's a very good point. It is. It's a little Brene Brown of like that idea that we're all supposed to be ashamed because we're not perfect. Right. When in fact. We all have. We all have all these things. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
The subject line of this email is, you fucking debunked my hometown legend, question mark, exclamation point. And it says, hi there, KNG. This is usually the part when someone says long-time listener, first-time writer. However, I'm breaking the mold. I started listening to MFM in February 2024 and have been breezing through multiple episodes a day.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Shout out to my friend Maria for getting me hooked and to Karen for recommending I skip the first 100 episodes.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
I don't remember that. Because it was back when we were fucking just blabbing, saying all kinds of horrifying shit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
There were so many episodes. In the beginning, it was just two gals recording a hang.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
No, not even close. In episode 463. There's no way I am that off.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
You're just in the fourth 100. Right. Okay. In episode 453, Karen covers the Hammond, Indiana circus train crash and mentions showman's rest at Woodlawn Cemetery, where the victims of the crash were buried. Woodlawn Cemetery is in my small hometown of Forest Park, Illinois.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
I've been considering writing in this hometown ever since I started listening, but the story I grew up hearing is a bit different. The town legend originally stated that the crash happened in Forest Park and that the only victims were four circus elephants. In Forest Home Cemetery in Forest Park, there are four large hills at each corner of the cemetery.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
The legend had it that the hills were actually the graves of those elephants. Oh. You're saying legend. I'm saying, was it your uncle who was just kind of like bored and telling you a story? Legendary uncle? So the most legendary uncle of Forest Park, Illinois. My new screenplay. The story seemed so far-fetched that even hearing it as a first grader, it never really made sense.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
I was thrilled to hear the real facts of the story in the latest spooky Halloween episode and felt an immense sense of pride knowing that there was at least some truth to our small town's legend. Forest Park is a blue-collar village just outside of Chicago that is only two square miles and is the home of three cemeteries.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Part of the legend is that Forest Park held the world's record for the highest ratio of dead people to alive people. But I'll leave that to you two experts to debunk. Daily City. Daily City or Colma, right? Yeah. Which is the real, I mean, all cemeteries. What if we got really competitive with Illinois where we're like, I think that belongs to coma. Okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Thank you both so much for being real as shit all the time. We can't help it. It's a crutch for you. You've inspired me to start therapy and become sober all in nine months of listening. Oh, my God. It's taken me nine years and I'm fucking only doing one of those things. Also, this is bullshit. Like, this sounds like someone, it's like, write in this email to make them feel better.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
It's really changed my life. Double thumbs up. Yep. You are both very special to me. And I can't wait to see where the next year of listening takes me. And then it parentheses, it says more than likely to the first 100 episodes. Stay sexy and check your hometown facts and dead to a live ratios. Raelynn Sheher. Raelynn, I feel touched. I'm truly touched. I feel that was touching. I feel touched.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
It's funny because we keep on making jokes, right? But we shouldn't when people are being touching with us. It's because we can't handle vulnerability. It doesn't feel great. Humor, cover it all up. With humor. You know, I've been rethinking Santa. He breaks into your house, he steals your cookies, and he vanishes until next year.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Home Chef boxes are delivered to your doorstep with fresh ingredients, easy recipes, and zero cookie theft.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Home Chef has step-by-step recipes that are designed to make cooking a breeze, whether you're a total beginner or a confident cook looking to save time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
So no more feeling overwhelmed, no more racing against the clock, just delicious meals that come together effortlessly every time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Plus, they roll out 18 fresh options every week, like black pepper steak strips or buttermilk chicken schnitzels.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
I have to say, looking at these menus, like the idea of working until 730, whenever I work to rolling out and then going to my kitchen and opening the kitchen and there's some salsa chicken enchiladas sitting there waiting for me to warm up that are restaurant quality and taste like restaurant quality is the reason that I love Home Chef. How about some shrimp carbonara fettuccine for you?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Hello and welcome to My Favorite Murder, the Minnesota. That's right. Stop arguing because it's real. We told you. We said we were going to do it. Listen, please listen.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
I'd be down with that. Come on. For a limited time, Home Chef is offering our listeners 18 free meals plus free dessert for life. And of course, free shipping on your first box. Go to homechef.com slash MFM. That's homechef.com slash MFM for 18 free meals plus free dessert for life. You heard me right. Homechef.com slash MFM. Must be an active subscriber to receive free dessert. Goodbye.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
If you're spending all winter hunkered down at home, it might be time to upgrade your space.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Article believes in delightful design for every home. And thanks to their online-only model, they have some really delightful prices too.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Check out their Calabri bed. With its wing-backed headboard and dense foam padding, it's perfect for sleeping through winter.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
When it comes to quality, Article's designers hit the sweet spot between style, durability, and price. They're all about thoughtful craftsmanship that not only looks great, but it stands the test of time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
it up there it looks amazing yeah it really does it looks adorable back there she was so impressed and now all of vince's friends will be like oh you did something with the place you're so fancy article is offering our listeners fifty dollars off your first purchase of a hundred dollars or more to claim visit article.com slash murder and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout that's a-r-t-i-c-l-e.com slash murder to get fifty dollars off your first purchase of a hundred dollars or more goodbye
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
It could be. And also, I know that truck drivers are exhausted all the time and actually probably really need that. But it's like usually orphans in a far away. Children are hungry.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Oh. Another Meg. Yeah. Two Megs in a row. That's good luck.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Oh my God. That eyeliner is simply incredible.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Can you give me one of these? Kind of a permanent Kohl Kajal, I believe they call it. Frank has really good eyeliner too.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Okay. Here's my last one. Okay. The subject of line of this email is hot dog day and it starts one of the best I've ever seen. Enough grab ass. Let's get to it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
You say you like hot dogs, then you need to come to my town's annual hot dog day celebration. My little college town of Alfred, New York, located about 80 miles south of Rochester, has an annual hot dog-centered festival that you should totally attend. Yeah. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Each year, on a Saturday in April, our tiny main street is closed to traffic and turned into a street festival devoted to all things hot dog.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
That would be your first political move? Yeah. The first bill you'd sign into law. There are, of course, hot dog vendors, as well as kosher dog and not dogs for vegetarians like me.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
There's a parade with people dressed as hot dogs, packets of mustard and ketchup, etc., as well as fire trucks, adorable little kids from the karate studio dressed in their tiny geese, and all the usual small town stuff. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
There are games, rides, and of course the wiener dog races in which confused dachshunds run around sniffing each other's butts and eventually meandering toward the finish line. This sounds like the best day of all time. Yeah, yeah. Why did our tiny town of 800 souls decide to celebrate all things hot dog? Great question. I don't know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Wikipedia says our hot dog day started in the 1970s and hot dogs were chosen as the theme because they were cheap and therefore popular with our college students. And also for those of us who lived through the 70s, it was the recession and times were tough. It was that was like the gas crisis. Money was tight. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Yeah, yeah, that's right. All kinds of shitty stuff.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Nothing like today. Whatever its origin, Hot Dog Day is a chaotic, fun event with all proceeds from the food vendors and games going to local charities. Oh, my God. So if you'd like to cheer on some bewildered wiener dogs while stuffing your faces with everyone's favorite snack, come on over to Little Alfred, New York, and hang with me and the probably two other murderinos who live here.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
And, Georgia, if you look right down here, the children and geese are storming up the street to protect us from all the hot dog attacks.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Say sexy and don't mock the not dogs, Juliana. And then in parentheses, it says rhymes with banana. Like we don't, I can't pronounce Juliana without that album. Thanks, Juliana.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Rhymes with banana. That's the best. I mean, these festivals like truly warm my heart.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Do you think it's any better than the Petaluma Butter and Eggs Day Parade? I doubt it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
It is. It's real fun.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
And if you have a story you'd like to tell us that's interesting and funny and fun that you think we'd like at this point. Or horrifying. Or horrifying. Or a true hometown. Yeah. Or kind of anything in between. Yeah. Head on over to the My Favorite Murder Gmail, which is literally myfavoritemurderatgmail.com, and send it in.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Otts, yeah. I like mid-zero-zeros better, though. Mid-zero-zeros.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
To get out to a point, the end of a jetty. To look at a fucking thing, yeah. To look at a similar thing over and over. Exactly.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
She's going to get that momming done. She is not, no girl left behind because of a douchebag man.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
For real. God. Abigail, I love that your parents are the kind of people that like, oh, we are not only just going to get involved, we're going to make this work.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Ugh. Gross. Gross. All right. Keep your eyes out for those boat guys. Hey, if you have any positive boat guy stories, we're here. We're here to read them to counter this fucking bullshit. We know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
We know there's great boat guys out there. Okay. My first one, subject line, it's the one you've been waiting for. I may have babysat for witness protection program kids?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
And then it says, Oh, no. That's my sister and I all our lives, but we were not in witness protection. Just shut up. Just shut up. Being a kid myself, I'm sure I thought it was just some weird toddler nonsense and didn't really give it a second thought. Until a couple of days later when I realized they were gone and the house was empty. Those poor kids. I know, those poor kids.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
It was then in my 14-year-old budding murderino brain, I decided that I had probably babysat for a witness protection program family. I was convinced the 10-year-old told his parents everything that went down and they hightailed it out of there. I was so freaked out by this notion that I didn't tell anyone this story until just a few years ago in case the mob came looking for me. Hmm.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Of course, I don't know that they were really in the witness protection program. Maybe they just woke up one morning and decided my town sucked and they couldn't wait to leave. I guess we'll never know. Stay sexy and don't blow your cover. R. And then it says name withheld because, you know, the mob.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Also, untrue. Yeah. It's boring to you because you already went through it. It wasn't all day, every day excitement. But compared to walking around in a field full of cows, it's way more exciting.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Oh my god, Anastasia. I love that one.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
She's like, my dad shoved me like every other day. My dad was a big pusher. I love to stand under things like pianos that were dangling out of windows.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
I knew that familiar feeling. But also, I want to know if that security guard that saw it on the camera saw the shove where it's all sudden she goes like that. Totally, me too. That'd be cool. Okay, anyway. The subject line of this email is, Hells Angels used to pick up my mom from school. Gals, gals, gals, it's time. I love it. I've arrived. I can finally tell the story, and I know you'll get it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
I've been here since 2016. UK listener, you got me through it all. We're grown. Let's go. Aw. That's cute. I know. In episode 450, you talked about the Hells Angels, and yas, I can... Sorry. Y-A-S-S. Yas. I can finally share my mom's ridiculous connection to them. Back in the 70s, my granddad, my mom's dad, was well-known in the northeast of England, first for being a prize-fighting Irish boxer.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Whoa. Yeah, right? Yeah. I kind of want to look that up, but also in his later years as a respected pub landlord. When my mom was around seven or eight, he decided to branch out and purchase a well-known wine bar that had fallen on hard times. What he didn't know is that this bar was often frequented by the Hell's Angels. A wine bar? A wine bar. That's so classy.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
And it was their base for dealing cocaine. That's why. Oh, no. That's why. They're bringing the cocaine where the people who buy cocaine are, the wine bar.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Oh, my God. But also kind of hilarious. We were like, do you want to go wine tasting and then just get insanely wired and talk about plans?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
They end that sentence with, and was their base for dealing cocaine. Terrific. He tried many different ways to turf them out, including installing mirrors on the wall so he could see everything they were doing, but mysteriously, they would always end up smashed. This went on for a while until one day my granddad remembered that if you can't beat him, join him. No, he didn't become a Hells Angel.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Instead, he freaking employed them. What? Wow. Right? Wow.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
You know that gorgeous vintage of wine that's from northeast England?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Yeah, and gets you swinging? Okay. Well, after that, my granddad started to get on well with their gang leader, a terrifying guy called Jungle Jim. Jungle Jim. Who would frequently give my mom a ride on the back of his Harley.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Jungle Jim. So my Dave Demo, our family friend who was my age, used to call my dad Jungle Jim. Oh, my God. I love it. He thought it was the funniest. Jungle Jim used to frequently give my mom a ride on the back of his Harley if he ever saw her walking home from school alone. She said she was never scared of him and he kind of resembled a goth Santa Claus. I can see it. That's perfect. Totally.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Anywho, I never got to meet either of my mom's parents as they died young, but gosh, I wish I had the chance. My mom is an incredible human being despite a chaotic childhood, but I will say that my murderino tendencies are down to her as she let me read James Patterson since I was about nine.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
I now work as a life coach, helping people find joy in these dark times, and often listen to the podcast whilst I'm creating slightly more lighter content. Keep going, gals. We will. So thankful for stumbling across you all these years ago. Stay sexy, Meg.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Meg, you're a fucking legend. Yeah. You're from, first of all, from what I'm gathering, and I could be wrong, it sounds like an Irish prize fighter fell in love with a British lady and moved to her side of town, which is like ultimate Romeo and Juliet. Come on.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 417
Okay, well, think about it and get back to me. Circle back whenever you have a chance after the holidays.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
And years later, decided high control religion wasn't for me either. For more obvious reasons. Thank you, ladies and the whole team, for making a podcast that makes me and so many people feel understood and like they're talking to a friend. You've gotten me through bouts of postpartum, cross-country moves, raising four kids. Wow. And then in parentheses it says, yes, it's a lot of kids.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Religious deconstruction and so much more. Wow. You've done so much good in the world with wit, humor, and discussing hard topics. Thank you for being you and sharing it. Stay sexy and don't enter the convent. Oh, my God. Nicole.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Wow, that is, I love that we asked for that and then someone was like, here, I'll tell you all of my personal business. I love it. Thank you kindly. Good job.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Aggie, hi from Hungary. Hi. All the way to Hungary. First of all, amazing and cool. Secondly, the last time I was on a plane, I was getting ready to steal. Maybe it was a spoon or something that was so distinct and cool. And I was like... As I was like, don't do it, do it, don't do it. Do it. The flight attendant came and took my tray away. I was like, okay, she can tell.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Like, I think people probably get these all the time. But you deserve it. I mean, I earned it. You did. But that feeling of like... There's a real, Aggie just really like drew a little, wrote a little short story about like when your heart first breaks as a child because you're like, oh, I thought you guys were superhuman.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
You've been lying and stealing.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
For weddings, one bride, all drama. Hey ladies, I've written in a few times with no luck, but when you asked for wedding slash family drama stories, I knew this was my moment. My oldest cousin, Jen, and then in parentheses it says names changed, has been married four times. And each wedding has had its own special crises and a lot of drama.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
I can already tell this is going to be a long one, so I'll just get into it. Four times. Four times. No judgment, but... That's a lot. That's very optimistic. Yeah. It's very like non-cynical, keeping it clean. Totally. Just keeping it running. Fine. Okay, fine. Goodbye. Next. You there. Wedding one. At the first wedding, I was the drama. And then it has a little devil face emoji.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
I love the admittance of that. Yeah. But I still maintain that it was not my fault. For context, I was two. The wedding was in Jamaica. It was my first time on a plane and my mom was staying home with my newborn sister, making it also the first time I'd been away from her.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Without her primary. No, absolutely not. According to multiple sources, it says my dad, grandma, aunts and uncles, I was a nightmare the entire time and through a full temper tantrum during this ceremony.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Over 20 years later, my relatives will still make fun of me for ruining the wedding, even though the marriage didn't even last long enough for the marriage license to make it back to the States.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Oh, you got to wonder. And then it says, I don't think that's on me. No. Wedding two. Clearly, I hadn't been too big of an issue at the first wedding because guess who got to be a junior bridesmaid at the second one? I can't confirm this, but I'm pretty sure that this wedding was the final straw in my aunt and uncle, like a different aunt and uncle's divorce.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Uncle John had a bit too much to drink and was dancing very close to several women, none of whom were his wife. They left early, divorced soon after, and Uncle John never came to another family gathering except for to pick up his kids.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
They had been on the outs for a while, so no real surprise, but the timing and the kind of drama of it kind of overshadowed the new marriage, which also did not last long. Wedding three. This wedding was actually very pleasant. It was on a river ferry that took us all on a nice cruise with the ceremony, dinner and dancing all on board.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
We all thought Jen had finally had a drama-free wedding until their divorce a few years later when we learned that it wasn't a wedding at all. They had never filed the paperwork to get legally married and had lied to everyone to get a bunch of gifts and make it less of a thing. And then in parentheses, Catholic family. Whoa. When they started having kids. Got it. Wow.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Needless to say, my family was pissed with some relatives even demanding their gifts. Damn. You want the ice bucket back, really? That Cuisinart.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
You already have one, but okay.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Jesus is pissed, and I'm on behalf, on his behalf, waiting for. Oh, God. After the scam that was wedding number three, everyone was understandably very, I fucking love this woman.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Get up every morning and go try to get married again and just figure it out. After the scam that was wedding number three, everyone was understandably wary of wedding number four. The fact that Jen and hubby four decided to move forward with a wedding in the summer of 2020, despite the whole pandemic thing, didn't help matters either.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
She and hubby four are very conservative and they don't believe in vaccines, despite both working in the health care industry. Right. What?
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
When Jen found out that my parents and some other relatives would not be attending largely because of safety, but also because we all had long since fulfilled our familial wedding duties, she wrote us all an email explaining how none of her three divorces were her fault. And then in parentheses it says, not true. Yeah. And then number four would be different. Parentheses. It wasn't.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
She failed to change any of our minds and had a much smaller wedding than anticipated. You can't, after the act on wedding three, you cannot expect people to go in on wedding four.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Go to a beach with two friends and a deacon and get it done. Send everybody a picture. Okay. She failed to change any of our minds and had a much smaller wedding than anticipated. She is still mad about this and will bring it up passive-aggressively whenever she can at family gatherings.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
I love her. The audacity. Yeah. It's really an unapologetic life. Yeah. God bless. Whatever, Jen, I can be passive-aggressive too and air my grievances on my favorite podcast. Yes. I mean, why not? Yeah. Also, Mystery Jen, it's not Jen's real name, is totally free and welcome to write in, say, their side of the story. Yeah. Just argue for love. Thanks for listening to all that.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Also, what am I doing in 2025? I'm getting married. You heard that right. The screaming toddler turned junior bridesmaid turned non-attendee is all grown up. My fiance is the kindest, most emotionally intelligent, wonderful man I know, and I can't wait to marry him. That's really nice.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Though I have every expectation to be one and done with my own wedding, I'm sure I'll still have plenty of drama for my next email. Thank you for all you do to advocate for victims and tell important stories in a fair and balanced way. Katie, she, her. Wow, Katie. Katie, you nailed it.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
I mean, I think that's a big part of all of it.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Jen.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Completely. I mean, and it is the thing of, you know, in families when there's like there's the every go, everybody goes into their roles and then there's the scapegoats and all the family psychology. So we'll leave it open door for Jen. And what if she's just in the most fucked family and she's actual that actually the true.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
It exists and has been working for 100 years and is the way. And now that people have stopped doing it, immediately there are bad results from that, a.k.a. science.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
You know us. Hi.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Thanks for your family. Any kind of small time family drama, I'm telling you.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Yes. Fun times. Fun, but hilarious. Casey, one of the producers here who's also now a co-host on Dear Movies, I Love You, told the story on the staff meeting about his uncle who used to carry a bird in his pocket.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
This has been an Exactly Right production.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
I know. That was classic. Also, just like, how long, did it say how long the trail went cold? Just for a little while, right? Nine months, yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't like a, yeah.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
It happens so much. I know. Okay, here's my first one. It's MFM listener story. They gave it its own kind of little bucket to put it in. This is a listener story. Okay. What do you call it?
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
It's a listener story. The time my dad lived in a serial killer's house. What? Hi, all. I had written the story a while back, but I realized I didn't fact check properly and I wanted to give it another shot. Hope you enjoy it. If only like we were throwing things out because of fact checking. It's like truly you're you're just sitting in the middle of a very tall pile.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Don't be upset. Okay. But I love the kind of like, that's a lot of self-accountability where it's just like, I'll take care of this. Yeah. And look, it worked.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
When my dad was in college in the 80s, he and a few of his friends rented an old house that was only $50 a month per person. Oh, my God. Which in today's month, which is in today's month is worth roughly $200 a month. I think they meant math, but I love that. Or maybe they didn't. Still a major steal, if you ask me. Yes. Insane. Apparently, every bedroom in this house had their own fireplace.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
And the gas used for the kitchen stove had to be turned on by crawling underneath the house. Oh, my God. So microwaves only. I'm not sure how the mechanics of this process works, but this sounds like a hard pass. This house wasn't just any old house. This house was the childhood home of the notorious serial killer Pee Wee Gaskins. One of the worst.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
One of the, you can't even, like, you start to read about it, and he's like a torturer. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just truly dark, dark. Horrific. When my dad told me about his time living there, he remembered the neighbors telling stories about seeing Gaskins on the roof, hanging out by himself. My dad also remembers finding a large pile of shoes in the crawl space when turning on the stove. Shoes.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
I really hope they were just some old shoes left by him and his siblings, but my murdering brain thinks some of these shoes might have belonged to Gaskin's victims. I think you're right. Most true crime podcasts don't cover this case because of how gruesome his killings were, but I still wanted to share this wild connection with you all. Thank you for everything you do.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
I love how you normalize mental health and therapy, although my therapist might be worried about my true crime obsession sometimes. She's taken notes on some of the things that you ladies have opened about. Have opened up about. You've got me through the pandemic, finding my life partner and finishing my master's in data science. So smart. Jesus H. Come on.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Stay sexy and maybe don't live in a serial killer's house, regardless of how cheap it is in this economy. Nicole, she or her.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Both together. Both together. And they're going to help. That's like what the world is becoming is.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Where they're burning their evidence? Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
You know what I mean? Yes.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Unless you live in a hotel like Eloise, there's no reason to have your own. The whole point of a fireplace is everyone gathers around and stares together. Yeah. Don't go individual with fire. No.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
It's me.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Why not? Just keep saying what over and over. You'll just drive people insane. Yeah.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Emily, that happened in my family too. I don't want to be too specific, but we did that one day where we were just like, well, wait a second, and did the math, and then we're just like, Because it is. It's always religious families too that that happens in. Yes. Because like we don't give a shit, you know.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
And actually it happens so much that it's like people should know if that's a discovery, it should not be. No one should be like, what a dirty secret. Because it's like probably 70% of marriages are like that.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Yeah. It was just you go and do the right thing. Yeah. Don't bring it up. Don't make a family tree about it. Don't run around from new relative to new relative. The subject line of this email is that time I was a nun. Karen, Georgia, and the whole team. I was listening to Minnesota 419 and you asked for nun stories. Okay. When? It's just, and it just so happens, I was a nun. Wow.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
It's my favorite story to pull out at parties to surprise people or if the conversation is getting a little boring, especially because most people wouldn't pin my outgoing tattooed F word saying true crime loving self as the nun type. So cool. I grew up very loosely Catholic. Shout out, Karen. I love all your Catholic references.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Meaning my parents were raised Catholic but didn't really practice but sent me to Catholic schools. That's rough.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Mixed in with that and some textbook childhood trauma, you know, alcoholic parents, divorce, severe parental mental illness. The kind that gets you lots of points on the ACE scale and many healing years in therapy. Hi. Welcome. Hi. I ended up getting really involved in my charismatic new high school youth group. I could have done a lot of other things as a teenager to act out.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Drugs, alcohol, boys. No, I chose high control religion. I mean, there's worse things. There is. I mean, but it's funny because on the face you think, well, at least you're being this. At least you're safe or something. Yeah. I got very active in the Catholic faith and a young faith group in the area, and it was all very consuming and in some ways almost cult-like. Okay, so back to the nun part.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
You know, it's like, should we run you through it again? We're going to start at the beginning, we're going to read, we'll come to the end. Is this our first video of the hometown?
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Usually when I drop that information, I get a ton of questions. Could you have sex? Why did you go? Did you change your name? After years in youth groups and religious settings, I truly believed there was no higher calling than to, quote, live my life for only Jesus. End quote. So I entered the convent at 21 years old. Wow.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
After about nine months, I decided to leave, which is fairly common in the first couple of years as young women are figuring out if it's truly a good fit. It takes seven to ten years total, depending on the order, to be a fully vowed religious sister in the Catholic Church. About 90% of my days were spent in silence, prayers, and work around the convent.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
Meals were eaten in silence, sometimes with a reading, unless it was a special celebration day.
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
No way. It's giving me agita just describing Nicole's experience. In the order I entered, it's a teaching order, so all the sisters teach in schools around the country. You keep a really rigid schedule of prayers, reading, and recreation, which is sometimes playing sports like Ultimate Frisbee outside. What?
The Bible in a Year (with Fr. Mike Schmitz)
Day 33: Locusts, Darkness, and Death of the Firstborn (2025)
And you can see right over there, he's playing. Or board games. Overall, there was a lot. See, now I'm back in for the board games. Overall, there was a lot of beauty in the life. As a person who likes alone time, I don't mind not talking to people all day. But I ultimately decided for many obvious reasons that the life wasn't for me.