My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
465 - You’re Kidding Yourself, Supt
Thu, 30 Jan 2025
On today’s episode, Karen covers The Burning Bed murder and Georgia tells the story of Locusta, Poisoner of Rome. For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.
I'm Millie DiCerico. I'm a film programmer, historian, and writer.
And I'm Casey O'Brien, podcast producer, filmmaker, and lover of movies.
And now we're teaming up on a brand new podcast called Dear Movies, I Love You.
We want to talk about all the movies we're crushing on, from hidden gems to blockbuster favorites.
Each week, Casey and I will have heated debates, give flawless recommendations, and talk about what's going on in cinema. Dear Movies, I Love You on Exactly Right is available right now. Listen every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts.
The end. The End
hello and welcome to my favorite murder that's georgia hartstark that's karen kilgariff and this is my favorite murder did we say that part already i think that's part of it but it's always good to remind people i heard double introing your podcast yeah shoot you up to the top that's the new like what all the you know influencers are doing uh-huh it's just like double cleansing with korean skin care
Can I start with a really embarrassing corrections corner that I've been now waiting two weeks? Yes, please.
To correct.
That's like so embarrassing. Sounds on point. Remember when I covered the British murder a couple of weeks back and I was like, this lieutenant's first name is Sept. What a cool name. It was superintendent. Damn it.
I mean, it's so obvious. And also, I remember you making that point, and I wanted to, like, agree with you, but I kind of couldn't understand what you were saying.
Yeah, it's an interesting name.
I was like, does it—I just don't understand what she's saying, and I don't want to get her to clarify. It sounds like maybe it's a Serbian name or something. Right, or I thought, like, it was, like, a British thing or, you know. Oh, my God. Like— Did you get inundated with British listeners being like... Yeah, very kindly. Always.
Appreciate it very much. 100% need to know, but not harshly.
What a cool name.
Super intense. Did you think his name was spelled S? How was it? S-U-P-T.
S-U-P-T.
Shouldn't there be a period? Just didn't get it. Just went right over that head of mine.
That is a tough one. We have a lot of problems with the British law system. We always have. We have. It doesn't make sense to us. I don't think that's on me. I didn't fact check or anything. We should start calling all police officers from England mum. Just to delineate. Yes.
Just for our own clarity. Superintendent mom. Well, I wanted to get that out of the way now that we're back from a little.
So brave. I'd like to commend you on that. Thank you. Who else does it like us?
Nobody.
Everybody. Nobody.
Most of nobody. Nobody. But we've been gone. This is our first episode, like officially back in the studio with a normal episode since the fucking bananas fires that happened in Los Angeles.
Luckily, over this weekend, it rained. So there was a level of calm, or at least slight relief that came over a lot of people who lived in LA who were just living in that fear that they were gonna kick up again, Whatever was going to happen.
Yeah.
Such a bizarre week and so dramatic and so horrible for so many people.
It was really crazy to find that question you get asked on podcasts all the time. What would you and I've even asked on podcasts to other people, what would you grab in a fire? Right. And I because I we weren't in the evacuation zone. We were like. Like right below it. And so, and you could smell the smoke. It was really strong.
The electricity had gone out and I was just, that's just one of my nightmares. My whole life is like, I pictured how I would do it, especially with three cats. Yeah. In an emergency. In the dark. In the dark. Right. And so we did it and... I mean, thankfully, our house, it didn't it did never reach our house, but it was, you know, very close. Yeah. And so sad.
It's so sad. And it's also there's a weird thing I'm observing in myself and other people I talk to. Either the people that. People that didn't have to evacuate feel guilty to even discuss it, where it's like, well, it wasn't me.
And then people like me who did evacuate and feel stupid because I just left probably an hour before most of the other people in my area did because basically Jay Elias, our great development coordinator- at this point, but also executive assistant to many at this company, texted me and was like, you have to get out right now.
Yeah. I don't feel embarrassed at all. It's like I kind of actually am like proud that I handled myself in a really, you know, I yelled at Vince a little bit to hurry up. But otherwise, it all went well, you know, and it is like. Really honest today. Not yelled, but you know what I mean. Sure.
Well, you were freaking out. It was freaking out. It was fucking so scary.
It was so scary. And yeah, there's, you know, Altadena was such a darling town. I know so many people there. There's someone in our back house staying there because they lost their entire house. So there is dislike.
guilt like that for sure but my cousins are from Pacific Palisades and earlier that day they were part of that crew who had to leave their car behind and just run down this like down and I was just like I don't want to be that I don't want to be I don't want to evacuate when I'm told to evacuate with everyone else. That's one of my other worst nightmares is like sitting in evacuation traffic.
Are your cousins okay? Some lost houses, some didn't. It's just so... Everyone knows someone who lost houses. It's fucking... But that trauma, that...
Like gridlock, emergency gridlock trauma. I saw that video of those cars being left in the Pacific Palisades. And that's why I, well, that and Jay telling me, but it was like, yeah, yeah, I'm not waiting around until everybody else is looking at each other and getting in the car at the same time.
Yeah. I bet you have this experience too. Fucking huge shout out to Vince's retired fire chief brother, Russ. He was so on it texting us from Michigan with all the insider info. It was so incredible. Like, and you have fire, your dad was a firefighter, obviously. That was incredible.
He literally, he was telling, texting me and being like, hey, where are they right now? Like, I was the one that was taking screenshots of the Watch Duty app and sending them to him. No, I was, like, informing him about what was going on. All right, well. Yeah. But, I mean, I'm sure in his, if he were to say anything, which I'm sure my sister said, don't say anything. Oh, yeah.
If he was going to say anything, he'd be like, take it easy. Right, right. Yeah. Maybe why I was interpreting that is like there's I'm seeing I'm hearing a lot of other people have shame where it's like, no, that's you. That's tied to you and your trauma. And your weird family. So good luck. The way they do things.
But suffice it to say, really shocking, terrible, like natural disaster to a degree I've never seen. And I've lived here for 25, over 25 years.
In the midst of the inauguration. It just felt like the end of the fucking world. And it still does.
It does in many ways, although the rain kind of brought a little bit of a like at least a like, OK, we're done with that. Yeah. Now that's like we're going to close this particular chapter of this particular trauma season. So, yeah, the thing we wanted to talk to everybody about is how. long before any of that started. We had a ninth anniversary for this old podcast, this old gal.
I think it was on the 13th.
Yeah, something like that. Something around there. And we were going to do a whole live stream and we had asked you guys for the ninth anniversary gift, which is ceramics. And a couple of you delivered ceramics. Yeah. Not many. Just kidding. We got so much fucking ceramics. Boxes. Boxes upon boxes. Photos, tags on... Some people were like, I want to send it to you, but it cost me $500 to send it.
Right. Like, just so much awesome stuff.
People were making, and people were making and shipping, and people were sharing, and it was exactly what we wanted. And then we basically... It was almost kind of like we sent everyone an invitation to the party and left the house and turned the lights out and were like, see you later. So... This today, it's just going to be a little taste of what we wanted that to be.
And what it's going to be. Yes. Because we're still going to do it. We're just kind of recalibrating right now.
Right, exactly. We'll do a live stream because we have the capability to now here at the studios. But also just we thought it would be a super fun, cool new way to kind of celebrate something or like mark an important day, like an anniversary. Yeah. Like your almost decade anniversary of a podcast. Right. Imagine.
So important. Everyone, one of the most important moments in a person's life.
In a woman's life. Yeah, for sure. That and getting her first piece of dedicated ceramics. So without further ado, the reason we're telling you all this, listener, is because we are now going to take a look at some of the, just some, and like truly... We're going to have a lot of these. We're going to be able to do this maybe as a recurring segment of let's take a look at today's ceramic.
And I can't, we haven't seen a single piece. I haven't. You might have accidentally because it's near your office.
I did. No, no, no. I did accidentally simply just right before we started because I yanked this thing. In the pure fun of there's a black piece of silk. And you just went for it. And I was like, yes. And I was like, no.
There's a reason that was covered. So we haven't seen any of this. The incredible team at Exactly Right have been going through the boxes. And you can hear them diabolically laughing or just cracking up every time they see one. So there's one on our table right now. It's covered up. If you want to go to YouTube, you can see it. Or I'm sure we'll put it on our socials.
It'll be all over socials. We're going to make this for you, listener, who's just walking around the mall being like, I don't know what I'm talking about. Don't worry. It's okay. We're going to explain it. We're going to give you pictures. In this day and age, soon you'll be able to look at your podcast app and video will be sitting there. That's right.
That's the future. But until then, you have to listen to us explain things. In detail. In detail. And probably get some things incorrect.
Yeah. What's really important, I think, for everyone to know and the video watcher will now know is these ceramic pieces, these ceramic artworks are right now sitting on an electric Lazy Susan on our podcasting desk. So we can make this as HGTV, not HGTV, as Shopping Channel. What's that one? With the letters. Home Shopping Network. HSN. HSN. We're going into that area pretty severely.
Okay. Did you ever think that you would be in a place in your life where you could just ask for an electronic Lazy Susan and have it fucking delivered? I dreamed. That is like boss bitch. It's high fucking level. Lean in to the Lazy Susan. Okay, I haven't seen it yet, so I'm going to do it right now. Okay. Oh, Alondra's going to press play on the Lazy Susan to move.
Now the spin begins. And I'm taking it off.
Here we go. One, two, three. Oh, my God. This is... Okay. It's a coffee French press with two beautiful ceramic cups. But it is not... I thought it was supposed to be funny. I thought these were all going to be funny. This is fucking gorgeous. It's gorgeous.
Also, it's whatever any artist felt like giving us. So this is Emily, a.k.a. Pottery Mama.
Wow. Wow. Instagram handle at pottery underscore mama.
This is high art. It's gorgeous. I love these colors. It says, quote, this is just a segment of the email or the letter that Pottery Mama sent with us. They said, please enjoy your new ceramic French cross and mugs. I made them while listening to MFM, plus a bit of buried bones. And this podcast will kill you sprinkled in.
Does that disqualify?
Not in any way.
This is so beautiful. I have been wanting a French press.
And then we throw it on the ground.
This is gorgeous. And I love that Emily points out that they're made with food safe clay and glazes because that's like, you know, my fucking thing now, like all my vintage kitchenware turns out. It's filled with lead. And I can't use any of it. This is... This is beautiful. Okay, let's go on to our next piece of ceramics.
All right. We can intro this first. Okay. It's from an artist named Missy, aka Young Yenta. Oh, Instagram handle, at Young Yenta. Love it. And she says, as a ceramicist, Jewess, and hot dog lover, I felt it was my duty to fulfill your anniversary request. Oh, my God. You give so much to me and all your fans, so it's an honor to give back. Ready? Want me to do it? Yeah. One, two, three.
Oh, it's going towards you. It's slowly. Don't push the Susan. You'll see it. Don't push Susan. It is a gorgeous like plate platter with a beautiful painting of a hot dog on it.
And it says in mustard, stay sexy and nosh on a dog. I love it. That's gorgeous. That is beautiful. People are sending us. These are like actual pieces. This is. Yeah. I don't know what the kitchenware term is.
I don't know, but it's like they're furnishing exactly right studios with art. We kind of got away with something here where it's like, we don't have to go to HomeGoods. That's right.
We have it all for a month. God, I really love this. It's beautiful. Missy, you did an incredible job. And also just, it's basically a hot dog plate.
Yeah, I was hoping there'd be hot dog art. It is the right size for like double hot dogs.
Yeah. That's perfect. Maybe a couple of chips on one end and the other.
Salt and vinegar.
Listener, you're going to love this because this is just some simple, beautiful hot dog. Yeah. That's just kind of like you love hot dogs, right? Yeah. Well, then take a look at this plate. And somehow it's flawless. It really is because it totally suggests you're going to eat one or two dogs only on this plate.
It's oval. Wow. Beautiful. Okay. Let's do the next one. Thank you kindly. Thank you, Yanyanta. This next one is from artist Sam Bregel. Instagram handle at Sam Bregel. It's B-R-I-E-G-E-L. And they say about this, we haven't seen it yet. I refer to this style of mug as my quilted twist mug. I chose crows for Georgia and included my favorite MFM quote on these mugs.
It is made from translucent porcelain and is meant to be used and enjoyed. Thank you for all that you do. Love, Sam. Here we go. Big reveal. Sam. I'm sorry. What? What? That's fucking art. Why am I so shocked? Because I think what I would have done is made a hot dog ceramic thing that you can't tell what it was. My mind would have looked so bad. Look at that crow. That is gorgeous.
It says, this is terrible. Keep going. It's a red, yellow, and black mug with quilted texture. Those are almost like Danish modern things. Yes, designs. Designs. I have never seen something so beautiful.
It's gorgeous and also makes me think of one of those ones you can put it on the dashboard of your car because it's like a really good travel mug wider at the base and narrow at the top. I have to touch it. You guys are professionals. I didn't know it would be like, I'm kind of like in awe. I know. I'm totally in awe. It's really exciting. Guys are so talented.
It's because like we said a thing where it's like, hey, do you like to make a thing in this one way? Well, will you make us some? And people are like, I make stuff in that way.
Oh my God, that's incredible. That's Sam Riegel. Thank you so much.
Amazing job, Sam Riegel. The most beautiful mug I've ever seen. It's very cool. And then this part is for if you are driving at night. Oh, yeah. Reflective. Okay, one more. Look at that. It's so beautiful.
Look at our... Look at our gift shelf. Oh, my God. I kind of just want to do this for the rest of the show. This is pretty fun. Okay, here's the next one. Unveil, Karen. Oh, my God. This is a precious moment. Oh, my God. What is it called? Statue. What is it? Yes, Precious Moments. Figurines of you and I as precious moments. Dolls, this is insane. This is from Lindsay Cook.
It says, Lindsay's hobby is altered moments, which is taking old precious moments, figurines, and transforming them into fun new characters, bringing new life And fresh perspective. Holy. I have a hot dog behind my back.
You have a tiny hot dog behind your back.
I have pigtails and a tiny hot dog behind my back. And there are crows on the top. And we're standing next to a tree with SSDGM carved in it. Yeah.
Oh, my God. This is a real tell your eight-year-old self that this is happening because this will blow your mind.
She can't believe it. Oh, here's some pictures from the original. Oh, so she took them and like turned them into us somehow.
So this is us.
Okay.
That's so funny. Dude. That is brilliant. And then here's the back. Should we hold those up? That is brilliant. I mean, because this is every Precious Moment picture. I mean, statue in everyone's grandma's house.
Yeah, it's like a sad beige Precious Moment statue from your grandma's house that she turned into...
this beautiful thing you guys god that's funny so talented i'm incredible impressed i can't wait to see the rest of them say their name again sorry it's lindsay cook and we'll be posting this this is so freaking cool it's so good all of them now like this is next level thank you guys so much we'll be doing more of these we're gonna have a live stream like this could be its own episode it's so cool this is this is legendary it's so clever this is unbelievable wow
Yes, that looks so... What an array of beautiful, talented pieces. I am blown away. Like, my face is warm.
I know. I know. It's really cool. Thank you guys so much. Thank you. Ceramicists. People who actually took the time and money. There are some boxes out there that we're like, oh, people had to spend a lot of money to ship these to us.
And just so you know, if you shipped one to us, it's been sitting on a table in very prominent display with everybody looking at it and talking about it and looking at them, except for me and Georgia, for like months. Three weeks, Alejandra?
Yeah. But it's going to happen. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Because we have to always have electronic Lazy Susan.
I mean, we have.
We got it. We have to put it to use or it's a waste of money.
That's right.
Let's not waste exactly right funds.
No, we can't. Yeah. So we have to use it as much as we can this year. We better. It's pretty great. Also, we should actually just display this. It was shopped for.
by brent talked about i watched them talk about the two choices alejandra picked one of two what of the silk reveal scarves oh that's the most important part i believe they're called schmata's by many people in productions i love a good schmata put the schmata over that keep it as a surprise pull the schmata off right
All right. All right. Thanks, Alejandra.
Good job.
That was super fun. Well, thank you guys so much. That was incredible. Unbelievable. Real quick, before we get to the ERM highlights and our stories, we want to talk about donations.
So one of the most amazing things, and I think we may have talked about this a little, although I can't remember. But it did become a national news story was the way that the citizens of Los Angeles came together to basically provide for each other in one of the most beautiful outpourings of community and charity and just basically like love and giving that most of us have ever seen.
Yeah, it was definitely one of those look for the helpers moments.
Yes.
That was so beautiful. Yeah.
One of them started because there was some guys who were just like food cart guys. And they decided to go down to the Rose Bowl parking lot because they heard that's where a lot of the firemen for the Altadena fire were like they were centralized there. So they just four guys that have their own like hot dog carts went down there to cook for the firemen. Holy shit.
And then they put it on TikTok of like, oh, if you have donations to help us feed these firemen, you know, we'd love to get them or, you know, anything you want to do, come down here. which then turned into the Rose Bowl parking lot, like basically center where anyone could go to pick up clothes, supplies, diapers. It was like community action in a way that like I've never seen.
So that's what people were doing, you know, during the days after and during this catastrophe. But of course, people are still doing stuff and we want to add to that. So we're going to donate $10,000 to the Los Angeles Regional Food Bank. The food bank works with hundreds of partner agencies across Los Angeles County to provide food assistance to those who have been affected by the wildfires.
So we just wanted to add a little to that. I have like three giant bags of clothes that I'm waiting to donate until people want vintage dresses. Yeah. Because I don't think that's the first thing you want when you're.
Yes, I do. It's like, hey, do you want to wear a dress that has polka dots and reminds you of your grandma? It's like, not right now. Not right now. Do you have any sweatpants? I need sweatpants. I need a sweatshirt and I need you to make me a bunch of hot dogs.
So the coming months, look out for those vintage dresses everywhere.
Yeah, that's right. And if you are watching this on YouTube, there should be a button that pops up where you, if you would like to donate to the LA Regional Food Bank, then there should be a button that pops up on this video and you can do that directly. It's lafoodbank.org. Yay. All right. We have a podcast network. It's called the Exactly Right Podcast Network. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Exactly right.
Sure. And there's all kinds of podcasts on there. We like to tell you about some of the stuff that's going on.
We do. And we have some exciting news. The first episode of our brand new film podcast, Dear Movies, I Love You, is out now. And you can finally listen for yourselves and understand why we are so in love with this podcast.
In their first episode, they talk about the 2018 remake of A Star is Born. They go into the age-old tradition of drinking on film. And, of course, their guest is comedian Shalewa Sharp, who is hilarious and talks for quite some time with them about the film trilogy Magic Mike. Oh, good. Because we need that. A lot of film gets discussed on this episode. It's a great premiere episode.
It's really, really entertaining.
It would mean a lot to us if you guys could follow that, could subscribe to their episodes, could get a little heart going on that. Yeah. Five stars. Whatever it is, it really helps and we appreciate it.
And it's your friend Millie Ducerco from I Saw What You Did. Yeah. And the producer of that podcast, Casey O'Brien, who we're now hosting.
It's just like family fun for everybody. Dear movies, I love you. And speaking of amazing guests, this week on Do You Need a Ride, actor and comedian Sam Pancake. Oh. I love Sam. Hops in the passenger seat. One of the greats of our time.
One of the greatest. I just remembered recording that episode and it was just a delight. Then also over on Wicked Words, Kate Winkler Dawson's talking to author Michael Arntfield about his book, Monster City, Murder, Music, and Mayhem in Nashville's Dark Age. Ew. I'm going to read that.
And speaking of books, Kate's brand new book, The Sinners All Bow, two authors, one murder, and the real Hester Prynne is out now. Kate Winkler Dawson, The most prolific person I've ever met in my life.
We're so lucky to get to work with her.
We are. She's so talented.
Yeah. And you must read it. Yeah. Also, we have some bittersweet news. We are saying goodbye to the Lady to Lady podcast, Brandy, Babs, and Tess. We want to thank you for all your great work over the years. You'll always be a part of the Exactly Right family.
And listeners, please look for and support Lady to Lady wherever you get your podcasts.
Okay, so today I'm going to tell you about a domestic violence case from the 70s that carries a massive legacy and has changed our perception of spousal abuse. Wow. And just a listener note, this story deals with very severe domestic abuse and suicidal ideation. At the time, spousal abuse was treated as a private matter between a husband and a wife. Spock.
At best, and then at worst, it was dismissed, ignored, or joked about. In fact, Ms. Magazine, which at the time was one of the few outlets that was actually pushing back at this kind of language and energy, regularly asked readers to send in sexist ads that they found in newspapers and magazines. No way. Uh-huh.
And in 1973, someone sent in a print advertisement for a bowling alley in Michigan that read in big, bold lettering, have some fun, beat your wife tonight. Jesus. And right now, if you listen closely, you can hear Bill Maher scrambling to defend this comedy and how hilarious it is. What a joke. What a top-tier joke. Well, this was America in the 70s. Yeah.
And what's really weird that sometimes this happens on the show, and it's kind of what I'm in it for, if I'm going to be honest. Yeah. is when I was there for a cultural moment. I was 14 years old. The reason I know this case is because of a made for TV movie that came out when I was 14. So like a handful of years after it happened. No way. And you remember it? Oh, like it was yesterday.
And I remember not only watching it
and experiencing it but then what happened after it wow and it was one of those things that i think these days a lot of it had it had the natural almost viral effect but it was 1984 right which so that never happened yeah and it was that kind of thing where suddenly people were seeing and talking about this issue in a completely different way because i feel like like with so many of these things
The idea was shame. So you wouldn't share it. So no one knew how big the problem was. No one knew that they had other people they could connect to who are also going through it. You kept quiet. And when these things come out in public, it's not our fucking shame. Yeah. You know? Yes. Okay. So what was the movie called? I'm going to tell you.
It starred Farrah Fawcett. Okay. Now, this was Farrah Fawcett when I was a young girl. She was one of the stars of Charlie's Angels. Legendary. And she herself legendary. But for like a Charlie's Angels, I was on the love boat. She was basically the most beautiful woman in America. She did movies and stuff, but she wasn't known for acting first. She was known for beauty first. Right.
This changed that. Wow. She stars in it and does such an unbelievably amazing job. It was like no one could believe it. It was truly incredible. I just I remember not being able to believe what I was looking at. Wow. The other part of it was this thing was, you know, I don't know if you had a lot of experience with made for TV movies or that like CBS Friday Night at the Movies or whatever. Yeah.
but it was usually kind of family oriented, you know, kind of like this is a true story of a horse or whatever.
It's almost, it's soap opera-y, it's not very realistic.
Someone, everyone could watch it. It would be like either inspirational or yeah, romantic or whatever. This was like a true crime documentary. It was so upsetting. It was so harsh. It was so realistic. And the abuse scenes were unlike anything anyone had done before.
They didn't shy away from getting in your face.
No, quite the opposite. And for the time, it was totally revolutionary. Okay. I would say, although this is my opinion, it shocked the nation. You could use that phrase. The day after it was what everyone was talking about.
It essentially ripped off the mask of wife beater jokes because it exposed the true horrifying nightmare of living life with a violent abuser and what years of life with a violent abuser can actually lead to. The toll it takes. It's so...
So this is the story of Francine Hughes and the Burning Bed murder, a case that forced the issue of domestic violence out of the shadows and into popular culture.
The main sources used today are the book The Burning Bed by Faith McNulty, a 2020 mini documentary from the Retro Report and The New Yorker entitled The Domestic Violence Case That Turned Outrage Into Action, a 1984 People magazine article by Gioia Diliberto, entitled A Violent Death, A Haunted Life, and the rest of the sources are in our show notes.
So our story begins in Michigan in August of 1947, and that's when Frances Hughes is born. Her dad, Walter, is a blue collar laborer who works on farms and in factories. Her mom, Hazel, is a waitress. They have six children, including Francine. They live in poverty, which, of course, is made worse because Walter squanders everything they have on alcohol and gambling.
And he's also physically abusive towards Hazel. Francine leaves her parents' house as soon as she can when she's 16 years old. She drops out of high school and marries a man named Mickey Hughes, who's three years older than her. So a 16-year-old and a 19-year-old.
Yeah. The only way to get out of your house, too, is to marry someone, you know? Was back then.
Yeah. Right.
Right.
women were so at this time which would have been like what late 50s early 60s women's independence like was almost impossible it was so restricted right yeah you couldn't get a bank account under your own name couldn't get it with not without your dad or your husband and then you have a dad like, let's go ahead and name him, Walter.
So Walter's the guy that if you don't have somebody better than Walter in your life, then you're just screwed. Totally. So Francine says, quote, I thought he was so sophisticated. He had his own car and most people I knew didn't. So within weeks of their wedding, Mickey's behavior toward Francine changes. She will later remember, quote, I bought some new clothes. He ripped them off me.
I don't know whether I look too pretty or what, but he didn't want me to look that way. I was shocked because I'd never been treated like that before. What do you do when you're 16 years old and you had to beg your parents to let you get married? Of course, he said, I'm sorry. Forgive me. It'll never happen again. And I believed him. But it did happen again.
And by that time, I was pregnant and felt like I had to make the best of it. Baby angel. Tough. So by the time Francine's 22, she has four children with Mickey. Wow. Two daughters and two sons. But Mickey can't hold down a job. The money he does earn goes to his growing drinking habit, not his family's. So now Francine is stuck in the same cycle her own mother was stuck in.
Her full-time job is caring for her children, but Mickey's drinking and gambling make it nearly impossible for her to buy groceries or pay rent. And at one point, she's left to feed her kids popcorn that she mixes with jelly and water just for the calories. Aww. So meanwhile, Francine lives with a looming threat of violence at the hands of her husband.
Not constantly, because sometimes Mickey can be loving when he wants to be. But Francine learns to walk on eggshells around him. Her son James later reflects on the tense atmosphere in their home by saying, quote, So when Mickey's mad, he usually takes it out on Francine. Sometimes this happens in front of the children, and sometimes it's so bad the cops are called.
But Mickey never faces any real consequences because at the time, police officers would only make an arrest if they themselves witnessed the assault firsthand. Otherwise, they just file a report. Now, these days, that's changed. In most jurisdictions, officers can make arrests citing probable cause based on injuries or witnesses' statements.
So, of course, once the police are called to stop this horrible domestic abuse, and then it stops, then they leave. Mickey just goes back to beating Francine again. And so, of course, the natural question that we have heard in the past is why doesn't she leave?
But I think a lot of people, especially since like the 80s, just people who are interested in knowing the real answer to questions like that, know that it is an incredibly complex situation to be in when abuser and abused. There's no question Francine wants a different life for herself.
Along with the physical abuse, Mickey controls every aspect of her life down to whether or not she can have friends. Wow. Yeah. And we've talked about how difficult it can be for women to leave their abuser.
But it's worth saying again, escaping abuse can be extremely complex because abusers often use physical, financial and psychological manipulation to trap their victims in a vicious cycle of control. Totally. Also, there's stigma around intimate partner violence, as well as societal or family pressures.
Like when you want to leave, but you have the kind of like mother who might say, no, no, that's, look, you've got to put up with him or you've got to make it so he doesn't do that. That's a society we've lived in for a long time. The women have to fix their men's deep psychological issues or take responsibility for them.
The genuine love for your abuser can keep you in that situation, but also so does the degradation of the victim's spirit. As attorney and advocate Tiffany Smith explained to Retro Report, quote, "'This big question remains in people's minds who have not been through this or do not understand this, which is why didn't you just leave?
A woman doesn't go on a first date, get punched in the face, and stay with this person. What happens is very calculating, very slow.'" You're humiliated. You're threatened. You've been told over and over again you're worthless. And it builds and builds until leaving feels impossible. And more than that, it's deadly.
Women are more likely to be killed immediately after leaving than at any other time. Yeah. Also, it's, of course, more difficult when children are in the equation because the abuser could threaten to harm them or take them away, or the victim might not be able to provide for independent life outside of the home.
There's all that to be considered, but then at this time, when Francine was going through it, there's huge financial and social barriers making it harder for women to establish their independence. And that essentially forces the victim to become reliant on their abuser. Right.
It's so calculated.
You're right. For example, before the passage of the Equal Credit Opportunity Act in 1974, most women can't open a credit card or get a loan in their own name. at most banks in the country without a male co-signer. And again, that restriction, that discrimination was legal until the mid 70s. That one is such a mind blower when you tell the young women of today stuff like that, where it's like,
I was four years old when it became legal for women to have their own credit card without their husband's name on it. Jesus. That's fucking ridiculous. That is. Also, this was a time when there are virtually no emergency resources for women experiencing domestic violence, like shelters or organizations that are geared toward the problem specifically. They basically don't exist in a meaningful way.
This leaves Francine with no options, no support. Yeah. With all of that in mind, in 1971, Francine manages to successively file for divorce. Wow. And essentially, this is out of pure desperation, she has to legally separate from Mickey to access the social programs that will help keep her family housed and fed. Right. So it's basically like that's the only option, which then...
What a horrible, like a puzzle to be in at that time. So it's like, oh, so if you have a piece of shit husband like this at that time and it will require you to have these social services, oh, you have to break up with him first. That's because you're... It's because it's on you what he's doing.
You can just go do that. It's like we're keeping it from you.
Yeah.
In a way that's just like, yeah.
That only punishes the victim.
Yeah.
Mickey's forced to move out of the family home, but he ignores this concept of divorce at all. Francine says, quote, things were no different than before. Mickey came and went as he pleased. Yeah. Then weeks after this divorce is finalized, Mickey gets into a car accident that almost kills him. He breaks several bones. He suffers a serious head injury. He winds up in a coma.
He spends more than a month recovering in the hospital. Francine, after years of his abuse and manipulation, has been conditioned to prioritize his needs over her own, of course, always, and also to fear his retribution if she does not do that. So she visits Mickey in the hospital. And once he's released, he just moves back into the house with her so that she can basically take care of him.
Francine will later explain her decision, saying, quote, I really felt trapped after this accident. I don't know why I felt so obligated to that man, but I did. Then the real hell began.
This reminds me, this TV show Made with Margaret Qualley does a really good job of showcasing like the just why didn't you just leave or why did you go back? It's just really the nuance and subtleties in it. It does a really great job of that.
Right. It's like you saw the Twilight Zone movie, right, from the 80s? Which one? Yeah. It's the one that was like it was an anthology. So it was a bunch of different little mini movies and one big movie. But there's a part that's like there's a racist that's being racist and like yelling slurs.
And then he off of the slur, he says to someone is immediately dropped into the situation where that person of the slur, he is that person going through the worst of what that group of people went through. And it is mind blowing. And it's that kind of thing where it's like it would be a great. hologram to send someone. Yeah. It's like, oh, is that your question? Go find out yourself. Totally.
So the problem is Mickey is recovering from his car accident, drinking more than ever. The abuse toward Francine becomes more frequent. He beats her multiple times a week, sometimes for hours at a time in between his trips to the bar.
She remembers how a few peaceful days would pass here and there, and then she'd live in terror of going to sleep at night when he wasn't there because, quote, I might wake up being slugged. Jesus Christ. Here's another quote from her. Francine says, quote, I thought, well, maybe I could kill myself. But then I thought, if I kill myself, who's going to take care of the kids?
Nobody could love them like me. I would conjure up schemes about how I would sneak off to the airport with the kids and just leave, quote, but I would picture us sitting on a park bench with nowhere to go. Then I would get scared thinking about what Mickey would do if he found me. So several years go by.
And then in 1977, when Francine is now just 29 years old, she's subjected to one of Mickey's worst assaults after he learns that she is enrolled in classes to become a secretary. Wow. He forces her to burn her school books in the yard and threatens to sledgehammer the car so she can't get to school. So he just loses it. Yeah.
That same night, Francine prepares microwave dinners for the family, but Mickey isn't happy. So this is the scene I can literally see in my head from when I was 14 years old. Because it's kind of like they don't spend a ton of time in the back and forth of like the growing abuse thing. It's kind of like you get what's happening. They do it. It's so realistic.
And basically it's that scene where she microwaves these dinners and puts them out and he's drunk and he doesn't like it. And then it's like somebody filmed a real domestic abuse situation and put it on television. It was that wild and graphic and horrifying and like nothing... They didn't pretty it up. They didn't cut away. It was unbelievable and really scary. So this is what he does.
He dumps the meals from their containers onto the floor. He slams his fist so hard on the table. One of his kids' glasses of milk spills and breaks on the floor. Then of course, right, that's the, there we go. Kids are sent upstairs as Francine is trying to clean up this mess. Mickey removes garbage from the garbage can and starts to smear it into her hair. And then he begins beating her.
Francine can hear her kids crying upstairs and yelling down, Mommy, are you all right? So at one point during this assault, one of Francine's daughters ends up calling the police. By the time they arrive, he stopped beating her again because the police don't witness anything firsthand. They don't arrest him. This is despite Mickey threatening Francine's life right in front of them.
One of the responding officers later testifies, quote, he told her it was all over for her because she called me. He made numerous threats that he would kill her and he made threats to me. What the fuck? Yeah. I'm sure for those cops too, they're like, this is a drunken monster that we don't want to deal with. And like, and what's going to happen anyway? They're just going to bring them back here.
Like they know the system, there's no process in place to fix this. Right. So like, they're just kind of like, well, this is your problem. That was probably the like morally easiest thing to do is kind of be like that. But I'm sure then at this point, They know it's just like, what is there to do now? Yeah. So we can assume the cop talks Mickey down or the cops talk Mickey down.
They make a report. They leave. His abuse continues. He forces Francine to make a new dinner for him. Then he rapes her. Afterwards, he falls asleep in a drunken haze. Francine, though, is done. She says, quote, I was thinking about all the things that had happened to me, all the times he'd hurt me, how he'd hurt the kids. I stood still for a moment hesitating and a voice urged me on.
It whispered, do it, do it, do it. So she puts her kids in her car. Then she goes to the garage and gets a can of gasoline. She goes to the bedroom where Mickey's passed out, douses the area around the bed, lights a match, tosses it at the gas-soaked floor, runs out of the house as it goes up in flames. Holy shit. And now she's in the car with her kids.
She drives straight to the county jail and turns herself in.
Wow. I mean, how fucking desperate do you have to be that that is your best option? Yeah. That's all you can do. Yeah. That's all you could do. Not just leave. There's no just leaving.
No. This is my only option. Yeah. You knew it. This is the best case scenario for my kids. Well, I finished it. Nobody else seemed to be able to.
Jesus.
Firefighters, of course, are deployed to the Hughes home. By the time they get there, Mickey's dead. And Francine Hughes is charged with first-degree murder and put in jail. Francine willingly and admittedly murdered her husband while he was sleeping.
As one officer put it, there was no question that the system had failed her, but in our system, the excuse for system failures is not to commit first-degree murder. Well, thank you for that wonderful lesson. It's like calling a system failure. It's like, this isn't like we had a gas leak. Right.
This is a man who for a decade punches his wife in the face and everyone knows it and no one does shit about it. Yeah.
No one's going to fucking help you. No one's going to do anything to stop it.
Right.
So when the case begins, Francine's lawyer argues that after years of Mickey's relentless abuse, Francine experienced temporary insanity when she killed him. The timing of this case is very important because at the time, feminist groups had already spent years trying to raise awareness and organize around the issue of spousal abuse and domestic violence.
And writer Faith McNulty will later put it, quote, had it occurred a decade earlier, the facts underlying the crime would probably have never been widely known. But in the 70s, there was a new willingness to listen to a story such as Francine's. Wow. Interesting.
And I think that new willingness had to do with basically enough women, like you're saying, like women talking to each other, women telling each other stories. you're not alone and you don't have to stay there and we'll figure something out or just like maybe the basic empowerment of you can have a checking account and maybe figure something out.
Because you think of stories after this where women being abused, saving money in like a secret checking account to get away.
Because financial abuse is such a great way to control someone. It's just you control everything. Right.
So obviously this case becomes national news. The big networks fled Francine's small Michigan town. And the New York Times writes that Francine's case becomes a, quote, cause celeb for the feminist movement. Yay, feminists. But also, I don't know. I just get the tone of like, oh, it's a cause celeb. It's like she had to kill him to get him to stop hitting her. Right, right.
In the courtroom, a jury of two men and 10 women eventually hand down their verdict. They agree that Francine suffered from temporary insanity and she is acquitted for the murder of her husband. How did they get that jury? Those lawyers.
Those lawyers were good.
But I also wonder if those lawyers were good, but the people, I mean, wherever this was tried, it'd be very... I mean, I want to read this book. Yeah. But... That the people in that community not only knew of him and knew this reality, but so many people have lived through this in some way. Totally. If you're not the spouse, then you're the kid watching that happen.
Plenty of people being like, yeah, enough of this and enough of women going to jail because this is the only option they have.
It's almost like that verdict was for all the women that came before her who didn't escape or who were the ones who were killed. Yes. It's like that verdict is the message of no more. Right. You know? Yes.
So then In 1980, writer Faith McNulty publishes the nonfiction book, The Burning Bed, all about Francine's life and about this case. And that, of course, draws more attention to the issue. Francine gets an $11,000 advance for this book, which is worth around $42,000 in today's money. And she uses it as a down payment for a house. Oh, wow. So she can live with her kids and have a place to be safe.
Oh, my God.
How beautiful.
But her life doesn't really change materially except for the attention and the interest in the story. She still has to make ends meet. So she actually ends up getting some secretarial work and then she will later operate a forklift in a factory for a couple of years before she gets laid off. When this happens, Francine goes through a dark time and she says, quote, I went a little crazy.
I was partying almost every night trying to escape from something. I drank a lot and I was taking speed. It was like I was trying to self-destruct. Yeah. But it's also, you didn't have a childhood. You basically went from like sophomore year of high school into a nightmare, nightmare marriage, family situation. The trauma that you're not dealing with. Yeah, you know she wasn't in therapy.
She wasn't talking to anybody about it. It was like, oh, now... Because it's the abuse, then it's the murder, then it's the infamy. There's so much to deal with that, of course, you just were like, I need to blot it out. This is when Francine meets a man named Robert, who'd recently been released from prison after serving 10 years for armed robbery.
The nature of this relationship isn't exactly clear, though a Deep Dive People magazine article from the 80s suggests it wasn't a wonderful relationship. They move in together two weeks after meeting. They get married a month after that at Robert's insistence. And that whirlwind pace can also be a red flag in some relationships.
Francine's marriage to Robert strains her relationship with her children. Based on reporting, it seems like they don't, at the very best, they don't like him. And troublingly, one of her daughters will accuse him of sexual abuse, which he denies.
The National Domestic Violence Hotline points out that one risk factor for being in a toxic relationship is a lack of exposure to healthy relationship models or examples. And of course, she meets this guy at a very vulnerable time in her life. So it's not like she's like, okay, I also deserve this, but I went through that. In any case, as all of that is playing out in Francine's actual life,
The book The Burning Bed gets adapted into the made-for-TV movie that airs on NBC starring Farrah Fawcett as Francine. Over 75 million people watched this made-for-TV movie the night it premieres, including 14-year-old Karen Kilgareff and her mother, Pat Kilgareff, who kept going, I don't think we should watch it. I don't...
This is, Karen, this is very, I don't think, because it truly was like so graphic and like unlike anything ever really had been up until that point. Yeah. So this made for TV movie of Francine's story kicks off a national conversation.
And according to the New York Times, quote, the number of shelters for battered women grew from a mere handful in 1977 to nearly 700 the year The Burning Bed was televised, which was 1984. Yeah. After this, the term burning bed syndrome becomes the well-known shorthand for the trauma caused by domestic abuse. Wow.
And then later in his 2016 book co-written with writer Alan Sepinwall titled TV the Book, television critic Matt Zoller Seitz named The Burning Bed as the seventh greatest American TV movie of all time.
Holy shit.
writing, quote, the film was a landmark in terms of content depicting domestic violence as an unambiguous horror and a human rights violation.
Yeah.
Seitz also praised the performance of Farrah Fawcett as one of the finest in the history of TV movies.
Holy shit.
It was crazy. I just wish the difference between Charlie's Angel, Farrah Fawcett, like supermodel, the hair, the whole thing. She was just a girl on a poster and all of a sudden she was like, watch this. That's incredible. Watch this. It was amazing. So basically Francine and Robert eventually leave Michigan for the South. There, Francine gets her nursing degree.
The couple lives in Tennessee and then in Alabama. Francine finds work in nursing homes and as an in-home caregiver, and she passes away from complications related to pneumonia in 2017. Francine Hughes was 69 years old at the time of her death. Her family members have said that she rarely talked about the case. She was once quoted as saying, People look at me like they're trying to figure me out.
I don't feel like I have to explain myself to anybody and I don't need pity or sympathy. I'm just an ordinary person." Francine was an ordinary person whose nightmarish home life was tragically also not unique. Instead, Francine was a victim of a much larger systemic problem that persists today.
Domestic and intimate partner violence can and does affect anyone regardless of a person's age, sex, education level, or economic background. Within a year of her trial, Michigan passed new laws dealing with spousal abuse. And since then, more have been introduced that prioritize victim safety.
Of course, there are now shelters, hotlines, and organizations dedicated to supporting survivors of domestic violence and or intimate partner violence. Still, Francine's case isn't the norm, despite hand-wringing shortly after her verdict about how women would now be able to shoot their husbands and get off scot-free.
The reality is that in the years since, there have been several high-profile cases where a survivor has been jailed for killing their abuser. Yeah, there's a lot of those. According to the National Domestic Violence Hotline, 12 million people are affected by intimate partner violence each year.
One in four American women and one in seven American men over the age of 18 have been the victim of serious physical violence by an intimate partner. One in four and one in seven.
Like there's everyone you know. If you don't think you know anyone that has gone through this, then they're keeping it a secret. They're not telling you. That's all it is.
If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse or intimate partner violence, please remember you're not alone. They're not alone. Help is available. You can call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE. Their website is thehotline.org, just thehotline.org.
And they offer information on warning signs of abuse, resources in your state, how to support someone you love that might be experiencing intimate partner violence. They're free. It's confidential. It's available 24-7. I'm grateful that we live in a time where I can pass that information on to
To all of you as a woman who has her own checking account and owns her own home and has some goddamn options in this world. And that is the story of Francine Hughes and the burning bed murder. Wow. I had never heard that. I had never heard of it. At all? No. Oh, I thought I was like, when I was talking about it, I thought you were just like, yeah, yeah, I know.
No, as soon as you, I was like, as soon as she says the name of the made for TV movie, I'll know what she's talking about. I never heard of it. God.
It's such a specific, I mean, you were four years old, but it's also such a specific, it's all, I can also remember the Mothers Against Drunk Driving made for TV movie. Right. Those weird like era changing ideas of like, we don't have to do this anymore. Totally. Then it's very mothers centric. It's female centric in my opinion. Of course. Yeah.
Incredible. Great job. Thank you for telling that important story.
Thank you.
Thank you, Maren McGlashan for being such a good researcher. All right. Well, we're going to change gears.
Okay. Change gears? Yeah. So I think people change.
Yeah, it is.
Okay. Well, we're going to do it. And I'm going to tell you what I think might be the oldest story we've done. Maybe. No, you did a really old one once.
Remember when I did the weather in 14, like 13? It was like when the weather was so bad for a year and a half that everyone just like died and there was no food and stuff. This is fucking older.
No. This is older. Are you about to tell me a Bible story? I'm going to tell you a biblical fucking story. No, I'm not. But we are going to go back to the early days.
of the roman empire is that the earliest like gladiator it's pretty early yeah it's pretty early and it does sound like something straight out of game of thrones and actually was probably a likely source of inspiration for george rr martin this is the story of a woman that what you're gonna guess i don't know i'm just yeah i'm ready for it this is the story of a woman some people describe as history's first documented serial killer
This is the story of Locusta, the poisoner of Rome. Yes. Yes. You ready for her? Yes, please. Okay, let's do it. So there are very limited primary sources about Locusta. She's only briefly mentioned in Surviving Histories of Rome. Of course, it's just like everyone's moved on from her. Yes. They're over it.
Yeah, they're over it. All Italians are over it. Let's not talk about it. No one was talking about her when I went to Italy.
Right. Well, but the main sources for the story were an episode of an adorable podcast called History for Weirdos, which is super lovely. It's this married couple. They're very smart. And an article from All That's Interesting by Genevieve Carlton. So we don't know much about LaCosta's early life. We know she was born in Gaul, G-A-U-L.
This is the region of the Roman Empire that overlaps with modern day France and Belgium. Like, you knew that, though.
I honestly thought Germany, and I was like, you should say Germany and just sound really smart. And then I was like, the other voice that's finally grown in my head that goes, don't do it. Don't even try. You don't know these things. Supped?
Don't even try.
Supped? You're kidding yourself, Supped.
She's born sometime around 14 AD. And of course, you know this as well, either at the end of the reign of Augustus or the beginning of the reign of- Tiberius.
Yes. Was it Tiberius? Yeah. It's because I watched, what's it called? Gladiator 2? Seriously. Starring Paul Mescal. It's the PBS series from the 70s. I don't know. And I keep wanting to say Caligula. But you got it right.
So congratulations.
Something stuck.
I mean, it feels good. Yeah, you should be happy for yourself. Okay. So these two men were Rome's first and second emperors. You didn't do the whole first syllable. No. I wouldn't have gotten Tiberius if I had heard Tiberius. Isn't it I, Claudius? Brent just found that.
It was I, Claudius. Thank you. Thank you. I wondered where he was. I, Claudius.
There we go. And before them, Rome had been a republic. We're not going to get into the weeds about Rome. Can we not? Yes, we cannot for sure. I'd really rather not.
But I will tell you just this one thing. Yeah. I was so blown away when I went to Rome. Yeah. To see these places that they used to meet, they're fucking huge. So like, you know, when you're thinking about it and you're just like, oh, friends, Romans, countrymen type of stuff. And you're like, oh, they're probably like on a weird little rock.
Or you're thinking of like some Monty Python movie or whatever. Like they're all standing in a circle in a marketplace. No, no, no. These things were like huge. 15-story buildings. Wow. And they're still standing, kind of. Huge, and they're still standing. And then there's metal statuary on top of that. It was mind-blowing. What a time. I want to go.
But stop it, because we're not getting into the weeds. I'm totally done. Essentially, though, the empire emerged after a series of civil wars to stabilize the republic. Julius Caesar, your BFF, a senator, tried to seize power and install himself as a dictator, which is why he was famously assassinated.
But Augustus, the first emperor, was his nephew, and he eventually overpowered the senators who had conspired against Caesar. So this is where we are now. Okay. So right around this time, this is where Locusta ends up in the city of Rome. She's a young woman. And I looked at the like one or two drawings of her that I don't know what time period they're from. They could be modern.
They could be old. But I cast her as Jessica Chastain. Just for fun. Interesting.
Yeah.
That's just my was my immediate thought. Got it. And it's likely that she had been enslaved or brought there as a captive of Julius Caesar's campaign in Gaul. So had the campaign where she's from and she ends up there. So it's probably brought over for slavery purposes. Yeah. Somehow during her upbringing, she learned a huge amount about herbs, plants and poison making.
But there's no record of how it's likely that this knowledge would have been passed down within her family as it was. And this period Locusta is born into, the end of the Republic and the beginning of the Empire, is the beginning of what's actually a pretty great fucking time to be a Roman citizen. It sounds pretty sweet.
It's where they get the saying bread and circuses, which I've never heard before, but Ali thankfully put in here. Yeah. And you're nodding like you've heard of it.
Well, it's the thing that they talk about. We're like, that's how they distract us. And then everybody's corrupt in the government and they give us our bread and circuses.
That's what it says here. The emperors keep the people happy by providing free food and entertainment, including the gladiators. And then they
fuck off and do their own thing and then we all fight about like the kim kardashian of gladiators right and we're all over here they got more food and circuses than i did and how dare that person doesn't deserve as many circuses because they're lower than me and i'm yeah and then we fight with each other and ignore the fucking oligarchs and the billionaires don't pay taxes and the billionaires don't pay taxes and corporations run the fucking country yeah
What? Where are we?
What? Roman Empire, you say?
Okay, I guess. So this is where kind of the beginning of the opulent, technologically advanced city of Rome, the expanding empire around it. It's good to be fucking wealthy in Rome at this time. But of course, at this point in time, it's not good to be a person living in one of the areas Rome is conquering.
But within the city of Rome, even an average Roman citizen, life's pretty stable and conditions are comfortable, you know, comparatively.
Is no Victorian England? No. Those are the two times I know. Yeah. Pretty much.
In the 70s. Yes. This period of time is called the Pax Romana and it will last about 200 years. And then the empire will decline and fall. And after that, it's the Dark Ages. Super fun. And then it's lights out for Europe until the Renaissance. Yeah. So that's where we're at right now. It's like time of wine and roses.
Hell yeah. Did I just make that up? A lot of parades. A lot of like, right? Yeah. A lot of flowers being dropped down from high. Yes.
This is around when the movie Gladiator takes place. Gladiator's a little later, but around this time. But while normal people are enjoying themselves, the ruling class is still constantly full of infighting, jockeying for power, and assassinating one another. kind of their thing. This presents an opportunity for a girl from Gaul with a deep knowledge of plants and poisons.
You got to use what you know. Also, why don't we know it anymore?
That's like, is that what's in the Vatican secret library or whatever?
All the sorcery plant fucking recipes. Yeah.
All the stuff that really used to help us.
So in her early career in Rome, Locusta works with two other women to make poisons for wealthy clients. The three of them are often referred to as sorceresses. Locusta becomes independently wealthy for doing this. Fucking get it, girl. She would have used hashtag boss bitch if she had Instagram. Do it. You know? Locusta makes a name for herself.
She's boss bitching, but writing it on the wall in Roman numerals.
Graffiti. Somehow. But I can't read. She makes a name for herself. She's hired by members of Rome's elite to help them carry out assassinations in their various power struggles. And by 54 AD, when she's about 40 years old, she's been arrested and convicted on multiple occasions. However, her powerful clients get her off every time. Yeah.
We don't know about all the poisons Locusta uses, unfortunately. Those are secrets now. But records show that she used belladonna or deadly nightshade, as well as arsenic and a litany of other poisons. I think you'd have to imagine Sally from The Night Before Christmas. You know what I mean? Yeah. Just a skinny, pale girl that's like, I like to combine things. Little of this.
And it sounds like she also knows how to create new poisons from different combinations. So she's fucking smart.
Also, I didn't realize that until now. It's like, oh, yeah, there was all kinds of poisonings happening, like palace intrigues type stuff. Yeah. Those rich people aren't just going to have poison on hand. Like they have to buy it from somewhere.
They don't make it themselves. I just realized that. Yeah. Poisoners. Yeah. So by this point, we're on Rome's fourth emperor, Claudius. Augustus, the first emperor, had essentially consolidated power and set Rome on this path to growth and conquest. And then there were two other emperors until Claudius.
Claudius marries his niece, a woman named Agrippina, who had already been married, like, oh, my God, drama, and whose first husband had died, possibly by poisoning. Agrippina has a son from that previous marriage, his name Agrippina. Do you want to try to guess? Yeah. You don't have to. No pressure. Does it start with an L?
Okay, start it.
You're going to know the name. And so you're going to think, I wish I had known. Oh. Nero. Oh, yeah. Okay. So Nero obviously doesn't really have a particularly strong claim to the Roman throne because he's the son of the second wife. You know what I mean? Yeah. But Agrippina is like, but let's change that. I'm the new wife, or I'm the wife. Let me figure this out.
Agrippina convinces Claudius to change his will, making her son Nero the heir to the throne. This is in spite of Claudius having a biological son. And after Claudius changes his will, Agrippina wants to make sure that he doesn't have time in life to change it back. You know what I'm saying? So she turns to Locusta, who by this time is well known among Roman elites.
Agrippina and Locusta wait for a day when Claudius's most loyal servant has the day off. They had days off back then. That's nice. They poison a dish of mushrooms, which is Claudius's favorite food. And it's unclear if the mushrooms themselves are poisonous or if she applies poison to the mushrooms. We don't know how she sauteed and sautéed.
Other people say he was actually poisoned by belladonna brewed into a tea. Regardless, the story goes that Claudius gets sick. His doctor comes to see him. And I don't know why every single doctor who went to see any patient ever back then wasn't first like, you're being poisoned.
Right. Because everyone's fucking being poisoned. Right. It was so common, especially in the palace.
Right.
Yeah.
Like kind of should be number one. Number two is like gout or whatever. You know, I don't know. What did they get? The doctor gives Claudius a feather to stick down his throat to induce vomiting. That's doctors then. I mean, that's it also. But that's how they did it in the vomitorium. Right, right, right. But the feather has been coated in more poison.
And we don't know if Agrippina did this or if the doctor was involved. However... They're locking it down.
Yeah. Okay.
Claudius dies. Okay. After Claudius dies, Agrippina, who hired Locusta, has Locusta jailed for the poisoning, which seems like a bad idea because you just talk, right? And you're like, oh, I didn't do this on my own. Right. I don't get it. It's a weird move, clearly like a paranoia move.
Yeah.
Because also it's all going to be down to her, obviously. Totally. Yeah. Like get rid of the evidence, but like the evidence can talk. But this doesn't matter because her son Nero quickly frees her because he also needs her help. Yeah. So Claudius's biological son is a man named... Give me the first letter. B. R. Britannicus.
Oh, I wouldn't have gotten that.
No, I'm not gonna. He's named this because the Romans had recently expanded the empire to Britain around his time of birth. I don't know, Britannicus. My name's Georgia. What am I gonna say about that?
Yeah, you can't judge.
I can't. You can't. I truly can't. Britannicus still has a powerful claim to the Roman throne. Sadly, he's only 13 years old when his pops dies. In 55 AD, Nero pardons Locusta and quickly hires her to kill 13-year-old Britannicus, which is like, just send him to a fucking island.
They can't. It's always killing with them. It's so much killing.
It's so much killing. He wants her to make his death appear to be of natural causes at 13. Locusta attempts to poison him with arsenic, but it doesn't work. And Nero has her flogged for this. I don't think that's the best idea. Has locustiflog? Yeah. Oh, okay. But they try again. Nero throws a dinner party. Wine is served. The Romans would serve their wine diluted with water, blah, blah, blah.
Basically, before Britannicus takes a sip of his wine, his taster, who's specifically there to test for poison, takes a sip, says it's fine. And then Britannicus is like, oh, top me off with that kind of water. It turns out that water was the poison. Okay. So the tester didn't drink it again. Britannicus drinks it. It's probably belladonna. And the thing is, Britannicus has epilepsy.
The other people at the dinner party know this. So when he basically stops being able to speak, Nero's like, oh, he's just having a seizure, which is like, again, let's start with poisoning.
Yeah. If you're like, well, there's the heir to the throne. Yeah. I'm sure there's no problem. No, we're all fine. Yeah.
Britannicus is brought to another room to recover, but it's where he ultimately suffocates and dies at 13. According to lore, the poison Locusta used was known by the Romans to turn a victim's skin red. And Britannicus is buried very quickly after his murder. This is so Game of Thrones.
Yeah.
Right. With his face painted with a white chalk to hide his red skin. Yeah. People just aren't really paying attention, I feel like, back then.
Or they're just not staring into the face maybe for very long. Or they're like, I'm not the one to say anything.
Well, right. There's poisoners everywhere. There's poisoners. That's the fucking king or whatever. And you're just like, that's not for me.
I got to tell you, if anybody wants to watch it, iClaudius is a pretty amazing. It's like. old British incredible actors kind of as like they're doing a play on a TV stage. Yeah. And all of this stuff is like the stakes are insane. Okay. Yeah. I'm into it. Because then it's like if you live and you're the one that doesn't get poisoned, you get to have like all of Germany. Right.
You get to have, do you like Scotland? You can have it. We have stuff all the way up in Ireland.
But then someone's coming for you too. Yeah. You know? That's right. You can't poison everyone who will ever poison you. I know. Or something. But just because he has that chalk on his face, just before his burial, it starts to rain, showing the red skin under the white chalk. So it's immediately known throughout Rome that Britannicus has been poisoned. Wow.
There's also probably like a no snitching on, you know, Nero policy going on.
Oh yeah, he'll kill you immediately.
Absolutely. Yeah. Like, just keep your mouth shut. Nero rewards Locusta for securing the throne for him. He pays her, he gives her land, and he ultimately tasks her with opening up a school to teach other people to be poisoners. It's like a happy ending. Yeah, that is really positive. Yeah. He also grants her immunity for all future crimes. Does that sound familiar?
Not at all.
Not in the least. Anyway, fast forward. Immunity. Some accounts say that LaCosta is given enslaved people and prisoners to test her poisons on. That's just a rumor. And this is where the idea comes from that she is the first known serial killer. Which is so funny, like you don't think about, like you think of serial killer as a recent thing.
Right. But it was probably happening a lot. Just the second, the first human brain that got a weird little screw fall out of it type of thing. Sorry, that's an oversimplification. No, that sounds scientifically correct from what I've read. I mean, especially back then. Yeah. It was much before it was a sin. You know, it happened all the time. Definitely.
And some people say at this point, she just starts poisoning people because she enjoys it. Sounds like she's good at it, you know? Not just as a hired assassin. We don't know much about what else happens to Locusta for about 15 years until she's in her mid-50s. During this time, Nero has made a lot of enemies.
In fact, during this time period, Nero actually murders his own mother, who fucking put him in the throne. Yeah. Like, thanks a lot. Just ungrateful. Yeah. Little bastard. Totally. In 68 AD, Nero is unseated by a man named Galba and is forced to flee Rome.
Sorry, but right there, if I was like, Galba is now in charge, I'd be like, yeah, no, this isn't going to last. Why? Because you never heard of it? Galba? Yeah. That's not D-D-D-S? You don't have any I-U-S at the end? Galba. It's fucking Galba? Oh my God, it's over.
Let's all get the fuck out of here. We've got to get out of Rome. And Nero dies by suicide shortly after this. The new emperor, your best friend Galba, overturns Locusta's immunity because that can be done as well. Yes, we've heard. And this comes as part of a purge of all of Nero's closest advisors. So for 15 fucking years, Locusta was living the good life. Yeah. And, you know, nothing lasts.
No, it doesn't. Time is a construct. The pendulum swings and swings. Flat circle. Galba accuses Locusta of killing more than 400 people and sentences her to death. So she is executed, although it's not known exactly how. There are two legends. The story always begins with her being marched through the streets of Rome in chains. Shame. All of Game of Thrones.
Yes.
Yep. Some say she is then strangled or burnt or a combination of the two. Public executions are common in Rome and often take place during gladiator games. Like there's that entertainment and circus that you wanted. In addition to burning, other methods of execution include crucifixion, which seems like it's reserved for special circumstances, as well as exposure to wild beasts. That's a hell no.
I mean, they're all hell no.
They're all pretty bad. But yeah, you'd just get thrown in a pit with a bunch of coyotes. Oh, God.
Well, anyway, that's the end of Locusta's story as we know it, which there isn't a ton. Let's get Jessica Chastain on the line and fucking get an exactly right pictures. Fucking movie out here.
Also, if you have a history podcast where you go into this part of Roman history in depth, I'll listen to it.
I'm telling you, history for weirdos. They clearly went to school. Unlike us. Should I go there first? Yeah. They know what they're talking about. They're good explainers. They're good explainers. And they like have... off the top of their mind in a way that I don't understand. Because they studied. Because they studied and probably didn't drink themselves into oblivion in their 30s.
I think the thing about people who learned a lot and stayed in school is that it's because they read books and got what was happening and then were like, oh my God, this is a great factoid. Which I feel like you and I are both the kind of people, had we not been born with these brains, we would have been those people. But the sitting in the seat and being told what to do. Totally.
The distractions.
Time away from drinking. All of that. The disinterest. Yeah. And I'm fine with that. We're not all supposed to be the same.
No, but I feel like these days, you know, history for weirdos, there are people who got really good at teaching because they understand what's interesting about history or like that it's here's how you bring history to life. This podcast will kill you. Great example. So smart. Learning about that kind of stuff where it's like, oh, often we put a mental block up. Yeah. It's like, oh, history.
That's boring. It's like, it's so not boring. It's so not boring. I'm a big fan of history.
I really am. And that is everything we know about the woman who was possibly the first serial killer, Locusta, Poisoner of Rome.
Wow. That was great. Thank you. If you want to dip into the Roman Empire every once in a while, tell me about it. I am here for it. Okay. We have to.
There's a whole time period. Thousands and thousands of years. Thousands of years ago. Okay. Well, good. I'm glad you like that. Yeah, that was great. Thanks. Wonderful. All right. Well, we did it. We got some beautiful. This has been a like huge, well-rounded episode.
And that's what we're like. You know what I mean? It's like, I feel like we're able to get in there and really produce. That's right. Everything is handed to us as we walk in the door. Every single thing is thought through for us.
Except the ADHD because we were born with it, baby.
Can't hand that to me. Can't hand that to you. Can't print that up on a copier in a different part of the building I've never seen. No, you can't. No. Well, thank you guys for being here and being part of this.
So appreciative.
Yeah, we really love it. And one last thank you to all our ceramic. Ceramicists.
Ceramicists artists for our ninth anniversary. Including Emily, a.k.a. Pottery Mama. Missy, a.k.a. Young Yenta. Sam Riegel with that beautiful mug. And Lindsay Cook with the altered moments. figurine. So good. I've just been like talking to you this whole time and listening to you with these beautiful things behind your head and I'm so distracted and I keep just going, oh.
You know what we do is take these and put them down here and put these things up here so these guys get a little time in the sun. Yeah. Right.
Definitely. We're interior designers.
We are. And we're going to fill up these shelves with all of the beautiful. It's just so nice that we have the kind of listeners that and you guys have been like this from day one. Yeah. That like we go like, hey, can we have a thing about something? Hey, will you teach us about Roman Empire? And then it's like, boom, boom.
That's my specialty.
Yeah. Boom. And I'm funny and creative. Yeah. It's incredible. And like the response, the ceramic response is to the point where the post office is kind of mad at us. I knew they would be. It's wonderful.
Just like the early days when Georgia would go to her post office box. And they'd be like, what's murder? They'd get mad about the word murder. I'm being like, listen.
Listen. It's been around for at least since Slocasta's time. Truly. So stay sexy. And don't get murdered.
Yeah. Elvis, do you want a cookie?
This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck. Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.
Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.
This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace.
Our researchers are Maren McClashan and Allie Elkin.
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