Georgia Hardstark
Appearances
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
We still have that P.O. box. And luckily, I don't pick up that mail anymore, if you can believe it. So feel free to go and hang out at the P.O. box. But also send us whatever the fuck you feel like sending us. We get wedding invites. We've gotten maple syrup. We've gotten hot dog earrings, paintings of Stephen. So amazing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Like, I have a wall full of paintings of my cats, like, in my office right now. It's just my favorite thing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah, the explanation I had to give to the guy at the post office to get My Favorite Murder, like, listed. He looked at me very strangely and I had to, you know, get my dimples going to be like, everything's okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
All right. So this is when I first share my grandma Molly's saying bigger dummies than you, which makes me so happy. I was just in an episode of the therapy podcast, Your Mental Breakdown. And I talk about this saying specifically and how much it means to me that it's become part of our lore because it's just like memorializes my grandma. And I love that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And they've accomplished everything.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
This isn't the same, but my friend Crystal is a Pilates instructor and I had like this toenail surgery mishap. And, you know, I love my feet. They're so cute. And I was like bitching to her about how my toe is ruined. And she goes, Georgia, have you not seen other people's feet? I see people's feet all the time. She's a plies instructor. I promise yours are still like on top.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And I just stopped caring about the toe thing. Like it really helped me. I forgot that other people have hideous feet.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And so even mine, I mean, she really did it for me.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah. Shame thrives in the shadows, right?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
That's what Brene Brown says. So fucking scream that shit to the ceiling.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And let your friends and your grandma talk you down. So, Karen, this is when you tell your, like, legit, classic, I mean, awful hometown. A true hometown of mine. A true hometown. I mean, I don't know why, like, re-listening and remembering that you worked with Pauly Class's mother, I completely forgot that. I mean, this is such a hometown for you. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
blah blah blah you know 90s attitude that we came up with and then it turned into like this this is real these are human stories yeah and the fact that like for a lot of us these stories have stuck with us in a way that we're not allowed to talk about because we're not involved and we're not You know, it is the victim's story. It is their family. We're not that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
We're not trying to say that, like, you know, boohoo us. But, like, they've stuck with us and in our heart in a way that we've never been able to get out because people don't talk about this. And I feel like we've given people a platform to talk about it and still acknowledge that they care about it, even though they're not directly involved.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Hey, do you want a podcast? Hey. Hey. Hi. We need to wait. Start this and end this. That's like... That's clean.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Instead, it's just me laying down on the love seat. You leaning back on the couch.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Do you want me to go first?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Well, I like sometimes when you will like pick a part of that story or pick, you know, you don't have to tell him from start to finish, but like, you know, the co-ed murders that he did. Yeah. Like if you pick a thing from it or how Richard Ramirez got caught, I think that was an amazing story on its own.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Oh, girl.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Totally. And it's before the Internet. So you don't really experience. I mean, now we can read about other crimes in other cities ad nauseum.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And I'm leaning on this love seat like Mrs. Roper would on a fucking... If Mrs. Roper went and got some scissors and cut her caftan in half.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah. It was just country. That just seems like I can't imagine being that far. Like as someone who grew up literally with like shared walls with other apartments. Oh, yeah. I just can't even imagine living in that much space.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I don't even know what that looks like. I have never seen the stars like that unless I'm camping or something.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah, people who aren't in LA or New York or a big city don't... There's no stars because there's so much light pollution that you just can't see.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It wasn't in the middle of nowhere.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
No. It seems like such a like what everyone says, like you didn't lock your door. But like, I don't think you did. Right. Until like...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Our parents didn't do it because they came from a time when you didn't have to. We do it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Wait, so how old was she?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Man, fucking credit gives me so much stress. I know. Like I won't. It's so hard to make sure that everyone gets credit and you don't want them to hate you and stop making shit. That's right. Well, here's the thing. You have... a job that you go to every day. You have dogs, which everyone knows is very stressful. I have no day job. I mean, I work from time to time. You do stuff though. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Holy shit. That's like, that's so crazy that when there's this like, and I've noticed this with hometown murders that are all like my brother's best friend from college or it's always someone, you know. It's not just the hometown murder, the thing that happened in their hometown. It's like a thing that could have been them or they knew the people or they affected them somehow. Totally.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
So interesting.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Anyway. I'm not shaming you. It's just like it's such an interesting fact of your life.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I have extreme anxiety, which causes me to constantly do things.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It's even scarier that it's just like not... Other circumstances, like she was alone or, you know, her parents weren't home or something.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It's just like...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Which is great. Mine causes me to constantly not do things. That's interesting. Because you're like, I can't do this right. I'm not even, this is going to suck. I won't do it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Wow. Because I don't have perfectionism. So I'm like, let's fucking try this and see what happens. And then we'll learn from our mistakes and we can quit it if it sucks. That's the way to be. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Like if you do everything like at a B plus, you know, and no one else does anything else because they think they're going to get a B. Then that rounds up to an A. Then I get a fucking A. Hell yeah, girl. You know what I mean?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah. So they... Which is understandable because then he knows where she lives. That's exactly right. The minute he gets let out.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Or were you getting that? I thought that's what you meant.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I have to rely on other people's perfection anxieties to just deliver mine. God, that's really smart. Did I tell you? My grandma's saying, bigger dummies than you. Yeah, that's right. You know? It's so good.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Like every summer. No, I'm picturing places in Orange County and I can make sense of that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
He would think that if he had gotten them. Sorry, am I interrupting you? No, not at all. You would think that if he had not killed her before the cops came, he would have wanted them to know that so he can like taunt them almost. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Look at Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman's dad.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
You know, I went out of his mind.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Just try it. And if it sucks, you can just walk away from it. Girl, I'm about it. I mean, you were right about this podcast.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I mean, I want to say good, but at the same time, it's you can't. Can't say that. There's no... Yeah, there's no... Clean conscience. There's no good.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
What's it called? I don't know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Sometimes I get really mad at lawyers. I don't want to start the whole shit talking that we do about cops sometimes because I know it's complicated and you promise to do these things and uphold the law. But sometimes I'm just like... I just don't know how they live with themselves sometimes when they're defending someone who's a monster. Exactly. And doing the best that they can to get them off.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I guess it's not. I guess you just want to get them a fair trial.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Well, Karen, you started crying and I don't think you've ever done that in any of them people.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
So I feel like it's important and I don't think you should feel bad at all.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Let's just do one and see how it goes. That's my whole motto. Yeah. Let's do one and see how it goes. It's very smart. And now everyone's making these awesome crafts, which, by the way, I gave my fucking P.O. box on the Facebook. Is that a mistake? No, it's a P.O.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
for georgia moses yeah i bet you can find his p.o box pretty easily is that terrible not at all thank you oh georgia moses i'm sorry yeah but i'm all yeah that's fucking bummer i know around i know how do you feel now you know what i'm glad i'm glad i said it do you feel cleansed a little no okay
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah. It's a very normal part of life, which I think the reason we're doing that is because we see that and we're freaked out by it and fascinated by it. And we could have a million episodes and not get to half the everyday murders that just happen all the time that you haven't heard about or you haven't, didn't know the details. For real. It's just... Yeah. Yeah. People get fucking murdered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Okay, we're back. I mean, that like close call where he gets... Like, you know, his car gets searched by the cops. There's just no way they could have known. But she wants so bad for her to have been discovered at that moment. It's just like such a fucking tragic detail.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
10 grand to fucking polyclass.org, the Poly Class Foundation.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
So should we also donate to the Black and Missing Foundation? Yes. Great idea. Beautiful. Let's go. It's blackandmissinginc.com. So 10 grand to them immediately.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
All right, let's move on to more fucking horribleness, shall we?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I'm just I don't know why I'm just going to always go with Vince. So anyone who's thinking about beating me up, I'm going my big, tall husband. Who will probably do nothing.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
What's your murder? So my murder, okay, like a month and a half or two months ago, we got an email inviting us to the screening of a new documentary called The Witness. And it's a documentary about Kitty Genovese. That's how you say it, right? Kitty Genovese. Um, And we couldn't go. And so the guy sent us a screener to watch. He did? Yeah. You didn't see that? There's like a password and shit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Oh, yeah. I'm an email skimmer. Oh, okay. Constantly in trouble for it. That's hilarious. I like read into every single word on the email. I'm like, what do they mean by that?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah. I mean, and I was kind of like, OK, whatever about it. This was like a while ago. And finally, I started watching it last night. And it's really fucking good. Oh, awesome. Yeah. The narrator, the guy who's kind of the in the in the shit of it, he's like the dude who you follow is Kitty Genevieve's little brother. Wow. Yeah. In real life. Yes. Wow.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
She's the girl that basically everyone is like she was being stabbed. There were 38 witnesses from an apartment building across the street and no one did anything. And it kind of started the whole like the bystander effect bystander effect where nobody you know, the more people watching something, the less likely anyone's going to interview Veen. And it had it had all these like.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
these effects on New York and what's happening to the city and people are horrible. And, you know, this kind of, this kind of awful thing of, of nobody helping. Yeah. It's in like every psych one-on-one. Totally.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
So, yeah. And so I don't want to spoil the movie cause I think everyone should go see it, but yeah, I'm going to talk about the murder so that people remember what it is and also some of the interesting points from this movie without spoiling it because I don't think I could do that. It's really fucking good. So on March 13th, she finishes her shift at a sports bar.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
She's a bartender and she gets home and parks her car at three in the morning at like a side parking lot, which sucks. And I feel like she immediately saw her killer. Winston Mosley was like hanging out, clearly looking for a victim. Um, so she gets home at like three 15. She parks. Um, it's about a hundred feet from her apartment door.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah. So she's walking towards her building. He starts to approach her. She immediately starts running, like knowing something's going on. He overtakes her and stabs her twice right there on the sidewalk, right across the street from this huge apartment building. And so the story is that people came out and looked and no one fucking did anything. But in reality... It's so much murkier than that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
What it sounds like is that most people thought it was a lover's quarrel. They look out the window, but she yells, oh my God, he stabbed me, help me. But most people didn't hear her cry out in the beginning. Most people thought it was a bar brawl or a lover's quarrel. And by the time a lot of people looked out, he was running away. And so she walks around the corner stumbling to her apartment.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And so people see her go around the corner and that's all they saw. And in reality, people did call the police. But back then you just called, you didn't call, there was no 911. And this is part of the reason there is a 911 now is because they needed, they need, you know, you can't just call the police precinct and get people there. Okay.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Um, the earliest calls to the police are unclear and weren't given a high priority by them. And it looks like some of them might not have even been logged. Um, one witness said his father called the police after the initial attack and reported that a woman was beat up, but got up and was staggering around. So no one knew she was actually being stabbed. Hmm.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Like what? I feel like if I heard that, like this girl who has a true crime podcast put her P.O. box up and got killed. What a fucking idiot. Why did she do that? That's what I would think.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
So he fucking runs away when someone yells out the window, let that girl alone. You hear him in the documentary and he's like this salty old man. He's amazing. Let that girl alone. He runs away. She staggers off. He mostly leaves, comes back when he realizes that no cops are coming and finds her again, which is the most fucking terrifying part of this whole story.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
So you can't, if someone had come out to see how she was and there was a doorman in the apartment building right across the street, if someone had come out you know, maybe they could have helped her, brought her into their house.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Instead, she goes into the doorway of her apartment building, which has one, it's got one outside door and then a locked inside door and she's dying and so she can't get her keys or unlock that door. He fucking comes back and finds her in the stairwell. Just like a fucking deer that had been
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
you know and stabs her more stabs her more they don't mention I haven't finished the documentary yet and they don't mention this and maybe it's just because he can't fucking handle it which is fair but I read that he raped her After he stabbed her? After he, well, she was dying. He raped her. I don't know if they're going to mention in the documentary.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I'm sure they will because it's a huge part of it. But I heard that in the documentary, it says that he attempted to. So I wonder, and the brother, it's so interesting because he's like, I've never been able to deal with, I haven't known the details of this until recently because I just couldn't handle it. And it seems like it was a really tight-knit family.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I mean, they didn't... I guess the family didn't even go to the trial because they just couldn't even handle it. I bet. You know? Which is like... What's great about this documentary is it feels like this guy is kind of like, the more I know, the closer I'll be to her and I need to find out what happened and know the truth because...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
The truth of that crime now is what everyone wrote about it and what people talk about it in sociology classes and shit, which is turning out not to be true. So, you know, the New York Times article said that it was 38 people who witnessed it and didn't know anything.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
But the upstairs neighbor looks out into the stairwell, sees her being stabbed, closes the door and calls his girlfriend who said, don't get involved. But then later calls the police. So like, dude, you should feel like shit, right?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Is it just the lover's quarrel? Do you really want to get involved? It's like... Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Not that I wouldn't get involved in the, not that the woman deserves it because it's a lover's girl, but.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Well, here's a really interesting, one of the parts of the documentary that I loved is he's interviewing the kid who, And the family never knew that their next door neighbor, who was Kitty's best, like one of her good friends, the soonest she found out what happened, put on her house coat, ran out and held Kitty. until she, until the ambulance came.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And the brother in the documentary was like, I wish my, why didn't my family know that? It would have meant so much to us to know that her friend was there while she died. And so the son is being interviewed, the friend's son, and is like, here's the thing about this neighborhood. A lot of people were Holocaust survivors. And a lot of people in that building were Holocaust survivors. And you don't
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
you don't intervene. You don't stick your nose. You don't, you know, get involved in what might happen within cops and police interrogations. You just fucking leave it alone, which is such a sad thing that you would never think about. Right. You know?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah. It's, it's, it's gross, but it's hard to, it's hard to argue. So Mosley gets gets caught a couple days later when he's burglarizing a house. He had no prior criminal record and he was married with three children and he got up the night of out of bed where his wife was sleeping to go find a woman to kill.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah. But he had actually killed two other women and he had never been caught. And he did a bunch of burglaries as well. Oh, so he is like a burgeoning serial killer. Totally. Absolutely. Let's see. He confessed to 30 to 40 burglaries. A psychiatric examination suggested he was a necrophile. Fuck. And then he said something. He said that his motive was simply he wanted to kill a woman.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
That was his motive.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
He looks a lot like Prince and Richard Little had a baby. Richard Little? I'm not Richard Little. Little Richard.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
weird picturing seeing that face standing above me stabbing me because what is the deal what is the deal so all right he confesses um let's see he's a fucking necro so in the 70s he okay so while in prison in the 70s he gets a bachelor of arts in sociology sociology Which is insane. Oh, good. You're not using that for good, dude.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
You're using that to understand how you can take advantage of people better.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yep.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And then during his, he was eligible for parole in 84, which is like, what the fuck? And at his first parole hearing, he told the parole board that the notoriety he faced due to his crimes made him a victim stating. Yes, he's the victim for sure. For a victim outside, it's a one time or one hour or one minute affair. But for the person who's caught, it's forever. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah. Much sadder. Oh, you get a minute of murder and I have to live the rest of my life in jail.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
shitty behavior. You're correct. And that's why you don't fucking not. That's not the only reason, but that's one of the reasons you don't murder.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Have you known people like that where you're like, how do you not see your role in this thing?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It's so weird to see those people. And like, I mean, it almost feels like an argument or the blame thing is like a game to win. Yes. And so as soon as they can get you to not blame them. And to take it all on you, which I've fucking done many times with people, they win.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Are you scared you're going to like, if you read that, you'll just like look for that in everyone? I mean, I guess everyone has those traits.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Can I put it in a comic book so Vince doesn't see me reading that and think I'm like...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Don't kill Justin Timberlake, you guys.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I'm thinking it's, it's so easy to like put some of that on people I know. Oh,
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Fuck, dude. Read it. I think I over I over accept responsibility for things because I don't I'm trying so hard not to. not to let myself get away with shit?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
There is a certain something about like, even being like, I feel so bad about this thing that happened where it's like, nobody... Why are you making it about you? Right. Not you specifically, but like...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I mean, what's a conscience?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Do you feel it?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
No one diabolically listens to a podcast. People only like at least medium joyfully listen to podcasts. No one's like... Now we're baiting people. Now people are like, I'm going to show her. There's no like Mr. Burns-esque podcast listeners sitting at his desk going, you know, with his fingers. No. He doesn't listen. Marge listens. Simpsons. This podcast always comes back to the Simpsons.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Hi, welcome. Hi, my therapist was right about you.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Oh, mom. Okay. What did I want? What was my... Let's see here. Holocaust survivors.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
None of the witnesses observed the attacks in their entirety because of the layout of the complex was weird. And it seems like she was attacked in two different places. Yeah. And as far as they knew, he ran away and she walked away and they couldn't see her anymore. And she was staggering. I mean, how do you... She only got stabbed twice.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
So how do you know you couldn't even see that she was stabbed by the time you run to the window? Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
So that was... Oh, I see. The initial attack. The witnessable part was two stabs. Right. The initial, like when everyone saw it was two. And then he had a private moment, you know, private in the doorway. So no one actually saw that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah. And I just was like, okay. I didn't even watch it. You didn't? No, I'm sure I watched it because I watched every episode of that show. There's also a girls episode where they talk about it. Oh, really? One of the guys is in a play where they reenact the whole thing. But of course, there's a lot of girls drama going on, so they don't really talk about it. But... I love that show.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I'm not making fun of it. Let's see. So it became known as the bystander effect or the Genevieve's syndrome. But people are now questioning what really fucking happened. So, okay. So everyone go to YouTube and you can watch the trailer. It's called The Witness. And if you go to thewitness-film.com, it's in the theaters right now.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
If you have an art house theater in your town and it's going to be in a lot of small towns. So it's not like random and then hopefully it'll be on Hulu or something at some point. Yeah. And then it's unlikely that she was able to scream at any point after she got stabbed the first time anyways, because they stabbed her. Because they stabbed her in the lungs.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
That's right. Yeah, they punctured her. He punctured her lung. So after that second stabbing, she probably wasn't screaming anyways. So it's not like a bunch of people ignored that as well. This whole murder is like worst case scenario. Fucking worst. Like she would have died from the initial attack, it sounds like, because he punctured a lung and she died from asphyxiation. But...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And so if the cops had been called and at that point they took her to the hospital and she died, it wouldn't have been the same thing as if he fucking ran away and came back and was like, nobody cares. Yeah. I can continue this. Yeah. That's so awful to think about. Yeah, it's dark. Yeah. But the universal emergency phone number was created after this incident.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And yeah, today it's used all the time. But so yeah, The Witness is the movie. It's by James Solomon. And it's a really fat, like just watch that. I feel like anyone who listens to this podcast will watch this trailer and definitely want to see it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It's really good.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
heard it that's what i love about it so i hope it's not boring that i did this this case but i just thought it was the stuff that you'd never you never knew about it and i really was it's one of those cases where i was like i've heard that a million times i know about it you fucking totally don't and then to see it from the brother's point of view who also is like kind of a badass dude himself yeah where it happened in the bronx in queens queens yeah people from queens are kind of the greatest
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Lisa totally is a fan.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Oh, yeah. You listen to it just for the interviews he does with the people who live around there. They're incredible. The accents are incredible. There's a lot of, there's like a beautiful illustrated element of it that they use as like interstitials or to show what was actually going on with this gorgeous illustration. Wow. Yeah. Very simple line drawings, but it's super beautiful. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Wasn't one like The Downstairs Neighbor might have done it?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Already need a fucking shower.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Like the witnesses, man, we got to have a double feature. Yes. I wonder if we could host a double feature. We should email this guy. I feel like we want to do this.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I always think of myself as such a lazy person and I'm like constantly berating myself for being lazy. And then like, sometimes I'll have to write a list of things I'm doing to just be like, just look at this store chat.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I was like, why don't we do this? Why don't we do that? We can do this. We can do that. And like sometimes, like when you just got here, you were like, you kind of had a talk, like we had a conversation about something. regarding the podcast and you kind of had to like talk me down from it. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Take a deep breath. It's happened my entire life. Yeah. Like I, I have to yawn. I yawn a lot because I have to catch my breath. And so I get so worked up. That's funny that you've noticed it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It's so like I've gotten up in the middle of the night and like wrote a blog post about how it like it's you really feel like you're drowning and you can't breathe.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And it's. It's just anxiety. And then that perpetuates itself and you just still can't breathe. And anyways.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Come on, man. Bless their souls. I got an email from a girl that I know today who was like, I just started a new job and I overheard my coworkers saying, oh my God, I'm obsessed with this new podcast. And they were like, me too. And they were like, what's it called? My Favorite Murder.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And my friend Kelsey was like, I was trying, I wanted to tell them so bad and brag that I knew you, but it's a new job. And I was like, tell them, look at her raise.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Well, first of all, I love the detail, and I think these are the things we look for now in stories, that this case created the universal emergency phone number, 911, which is just fascinating to me. Okay, this is early on, episode 24. I did not mention when my story took place. When? Yeah. That little detail.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
You know what? Smarter people than me have covered this and you should go read and listen to their shit. I am covering their coverage. And I forgot to mention that this took place in 1964.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
So ridiculous. And also the man who killed Kitty Genovese, Winston Mosley, died in a New York prison in 2016. So fucking recently. He served almost 52 years and was one of the state's longest serving inmates. And it's so terrifying when you when I was telling the story that he was trying to get parole and you're just like, absolutely fucking not, you know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And the word for is F-O-U-R. You know, it's not visual.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
We were very tired and working very hard and very surprised that anyone was listening to this fucking podcast.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
All right. So let's see. We could call this episode Obstetrician of T-Shirts because I don't even fucking know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I like that. Plans and schemes. It's so funny. Like way back then, we were like, maybe we'll do video. And it's like, now we have to do video. It's like, it's like required in today's world, today's modern world.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
We're on YouTube and TikTok and fucking Instagram and fucking all the shit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah, like when this episode recorded, I was 36 and I was like, not yet, video. No, let me be 40 fucking four before I have to be on video. Let's wait a minute.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I want to watch it. I haven't seen it yet.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
You know, I want to wait until this filler migrates before I get fucking lit from below and fucking on camera. Let's just wait until it's in the wrong places.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It all feels like flashlights under the chin when you're on video.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
No one gives a shit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
No. And I'm learning contouring finally. So I think I'm going to be fine.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Elvis, do you want a cookie?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
England. OK. Yes. Yes. And no. Okay. It just depends. Sometimes I, sometimes. What do you need? What? What do you need? Oh, you know what I loved is the one, I'm not going to remember the name, the one with the woman. Oh yes, that one.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
No, she was a police detective and she was incredible. Oh, Happy Valley.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yes. I loved Happy Valley. And then there was another one. And I was just like, I can't with this. I don't care.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah. I guess it was like about her. I could legitimately see why she was fucked up and sad. Yes. And it wasn't like, just go get a fucking coffee and cheer up. Yes. Or like, you don't have to talk like this. I didn't do those like dramatic bullshit things like. talking in dramatic voices and words that no one would ever fucking say.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Not that I can understand everything that was said on that show because it's just some thick accents. But you watched the second season, right? I don't know if I finished it yet.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It's called who to stock at a PO box besides Georgia. Let's talk about it. Michael C. Hall is a good person to stop. Michael C. Hall, for example. I know where he fucking lives, you guys. If you're thinking of killing me at my PO box, let me know and I'll give you Michael C. Hall's address.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I can't wait to see what, like what we start getting though. Like as much as I'm scared of dying, I'm also excited for like presents. For living. Yeah. Yeah. Someone, I don't even want to talk about it yet, but someone's made us lipsticks. What? Like our flavor of lips, like a Karen Kilgariff lipstick and a Georgia Hart lipstick.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Can you even fucking go? I couldn't be more excited. I know. I don't want to talk about it yet because I just want to open the box with you. Should I open before and present to you like I did? However you like to do it. Or should I, should we open the stuff together?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah, we can do either way. I guess I don't know. We can do anything. It might be fun to open it together. Yeah. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Like what?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Okay, I'll open it first.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Go hazmat with it. Or we should be open it all on video and post that somewhere. Yeah. Make people pay to watch us open mail. That's a good idea. I mean, why not? Pay to open free shit. Come on. Yeah, we should do it on video.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Plans and schemes.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
I'm just a... Conduit? Fueled by too much coffee and Adderall. And the Invisalign. And the Invisalign. I just took out of my mouth because I realized how awful it sounded.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It is. I feel like. And then there's like a string of saliva attached to it. It's real sexy. It's fun. Yeah. So you know what? Someone recently emailed me and said, I listened to your podcast and thank you for talking about depression and anxiety. I have it and I've never done anything. Where do I even start to find a therapist?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
And I was like, so stoked this person wrote me because to me, it's like fucking second nature. I've been doing this since I was 12. So I'm just like, what? And so I gave them psychology today has a great, a great... page, you put in your zip code and it tells you the psychologist in your area. That's how I found my therapist. Yeah. I found most of my therapists through that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
They do have photos on thing. And I've definitely been like, that's it. She looks like a hippie.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
She doesn't know what it's like to just wear all this makeup all the time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Also, Psychology Today is the freaking best magazine.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
You should get it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
It is a painful process. Today, we're recapping painfully episode 24, which we named and 20 justice for all. Yeah. Fucking classic. This came out on Thursday, July 7th, 2016. So get ready to defy the laws of space and time because now we're all going to be day one listeners. Okay, let's do it. Let's listen to the intro of episode 24. You want a podcast? Do you want to start a podcast?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All
Personally, yes. My apologies to Olivia Colman. You are a fucking, the queen of queens, literally, and I'm fucking obsessed with you. British Procedurals, yes. It's still Karen's thing, but I support. I'm forcing your hand on that one. You're just being nice. A little bit.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
Oh, no. So here we fucking go. Yeah, here we go. We're talking about the Boston PD and specifically the Canton PD and the Stoughton PD. PD. And so, I mean, I can't even begin to tell you all the shit that's going on with them right now.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
Karen Reed. So what we're talking about is the fact that recently the citizens of Canton voted in favor of an independent third party audit of their police department, which Because they didn't have faith in them because shit is going on.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
And one of those things that's going on is the trial of this woman named Karen Reed for the alleged murder or accidental car accident death of her boyfriend who was also in the PD.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
But as you know, it just sounds it's shits blowing up. It's wild. And there's a really great two part article in Vanity Fair called Karen Reed tells her story part one and two. That'll tell you everything about it. That's really good. And this happened a couple of years before Karen Reed, the Karen Reed case has come to light.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
A lot of people think that because of the investigation into what's going on with Karen Reed, this case has resurfaced to the FBI agents who are investigating Karen Reed's story, and there's some red flags here.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
Exactly. God. Yeah. So, in fact, lots of people knew this information that this police detective was her boyfriend. Sandra had told friends and coworkers that she was pregnant and that he was the father. She had described the situation as tense. The officer's name is Matthew Farwell, and he's 35 years old. and Sandra is 23.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
At this point, we should make it clear Matthew was charged with Sandra's murder this past August, more than three years after all this happens, but he has not been convicted, so just to let you know. Sandra's aunt and cousin both immediately tell investigators that they believe Matthew should be questioned, because this is suspicious.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
Yeah, something like that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
It takes two days after Sandra's body is discovered for investigators to look at the security footage from the lobby of her apartment, two days. So the footage initially shows Sandra coming home to her apartment on Monday and just kind of, you know, doing some errands in and out of the apartment building. And in this footage, Sandra's wearing the clothing she is later found in.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
And so this confirms the medical examiner's timeline and makes it even more specific. Sandra died on Monday, February 1st. And this is further corroborated by the health data on her iPhone because it records her last steps at 9.40 p.m. that night.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
Which I find so interesting that they can just track that now. Kind of creepy. Yeah, totally. The security footage then also shows a man authorities have confirmed to be Matthew Farwell, the police officer, in a hooded jacket and like a COVID mask, arriving at the lobby at 9.08 p.m.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
He gets in the elevator and then is seen leaving the building at 9.43 p.m., three minutes after Sandra's phone records her last steps. Hmm. Let's back up a little to the troubling part of the story where Sandra Birchmore first meets Matthew Farwell. This would have been when Sandra joined the Police Explorers program in 2010. Oh, no. When she was just 13 years old. And Matthew was 24 years old.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
So about Matthew, after dropping out of high school, he joined the military and then got a job with the Wellesley Police Department. And over the first two years of Sandra being in the Explorers program, Matthew took a special interest in her and would spend time helping her with her homework, both at the program and outside of it at the public library.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
During this time period, Matthew moved from the Wellesley Police Department to the Stoughton Police Department, but he had worked with the Stoughton Explorers Program the whole time. So he's in this Explorers Program. From an outside perspective, at the time, Matthew's interest in Sandra would look like the program was working as intended, setting vulnerable kids up with police mentors.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
Federal prosecutors now say that Matthew spent the first two years of the program grooming Sandra. Starting in April of 2013, when Sandra was 15 and Matthew was 27, federal prosecutors now allege that Matthew began sexually abusing Sandra. This would have been one month before Matthew got married to his now wife and was going on at the time.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
I'm glad you told me beforehand. I got to practice.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
This period is often described as the relationship, quote, becoming sexual or, quote, crossing a line, but because of the age difference, and if it happened the way federal prosecutors say it did, It's sexual abuse is what we're explaining. Yeah. Matthew will later admit that he and Sandra had a relationship, but he claims it started after Sandra became an adult.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
459 - We’re Both Skiing
And the bulk of the evidence for the federal charges, which say the relationship began when Sandra was underage, is based on extensive text messages between Matthew and Sandra. Right. It's a little hard to refute. Yeah. It appears the earliest messages available are from 2019, but in them, Matthew seems to back up the prosecutor's timeline.
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And in one text, he says, and it's like creepy and flirtatious, that he would have started the physical relationship when she was even younger than 15. This relationship continued consistently for the next seven years. But it gets even darker than just Matthew using his position of power to groom and abuse Sandra, allegedly.
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Because the evidence points to this being a bigger problem within the Explorers program. Sometime around 2017, once Sandra was about 18, federal prosecutors say that two other men who worked for the Stoughton Police Department also had physical relationships with her. With Sandra? Mm-hmm. One was Matthew Farwell's twin brother, who was also a police officer.
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All three men were aware of this dynamic between themselves and Sandra. So the men would also sometimes see Sandra while they were supposed to be on duty. Sandra had joined the Explorers program as a vulnerable girl without stable adult relationships.
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According to both federal prosecutors and the Stoughton Police Department's own internal investigation, the men she met in this program used this in order to exploit her. Over the course of 2020, when Sandra is 22 and 23, Matthew's texts to her also become increasingly creepy and violent in tone.
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No, no, no. So we're going to do just one story each. No, that's how we do it with every episode. One story per episode. Today's my day. So as you guys know, we're doing our holiday tradition where we make donations throughout the month of December.
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In their exchanges, they would talk about how he would perform certain sex acts as, quote, punishment for what he deemed bad behavior on Sandra's part. Throughout 2020, Sandra becomes fixated on the idea of having a baby with Matthew. They would fight more and more often, and she essentially presents this as an ultimatum.
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If they have a baby, she won't reveal the relationship to his wife and to higher-ups at the police department. Sandra at this point has confided in multiple friends about what's going on with her relationship with Matthew. One of them urges her not to have a baby with Matthew and told her, quote, trying so hard to get pregnant, she was going to get herself killed, end quote.
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At the end of 2020, Matthew eventually agrees to have the baby. And according to text messages, their text messages that have been released in the federal indictment, in the process of the agreement, he also negotiates with her about getting to enact violent fantasies. And those texts are very disturbing. I'm not going to repeat them. In December of 2020, Sandra finds out that she's pregnant.
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Even though Matthew had seemingly agreed to have the baby, he doesn't react well to the news. He texts Sandra, quote, I have literally nothing to say right now. How far are you? End quote. And Sandra writes back, quote, regardless of how far, we're keeping it. End quote.
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She also writes that she will insist that he sign the birth certificate, and that's partly because she didn't have her birth father's signature on her birth certificate, and, you know, that upset her.
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It makes sense that this is how she thinks she should start a family because there's nothing else that's ever...
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash MFM to get free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash MFM. Goodbye. Sandra's text messages show that in January of 2021, Sandra writes to a friend saying that Matthew had basically pushed her down to the ground when she showed him the ultrasound photo, saying, quote, that's not my child, end quote.
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And if you'd like to join us in donating to this very important cause, go to their website at thetrevorproject.org.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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At the end of January, Matthew texts Sandra to ask if he can come over. When he comes, he asks for a key to her apartment in case he needs to be there during the pregnancy. And he's generally acting much nicer to her than he has in the previous months. But also on that visit, she tells her friends that Matthew inspects her bedroom closet and her bathroom.
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And she texts her friend about it because it's so strange. But also she says he seems like he's coming around because, you know, for the key and everything. Right. Then on February 1st, 2021 is the day of the snowstorm. When Sandra gets home early from work, she does those mundane things I talked about. Matthew texts asking to swing by at 9.08.
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He enters the building at 9.14, which means he was close by, and leaves at 9.43, locking Sandra's door behind him with the key he had asked her to make. And then this is so disturbing. So based on the clothes he's wearing in the footage from the lobby, he goes seemingly directly or in the same clothes to the hospital where his wife is giving birth to their third child.
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Again, Sandra's family and friends are suspicious of the suicide ruling by the medical examiner. And when they bring up Matthew Farwell's name to the investigators, and when he's seen on Sandra's building security footage, a state police detective, but who's also a former Stoughton officer, interviews him. Which is like, maybe not, dude. Maybe some conflict of interest there.
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The interview is super brief. It takes place in a parking lot, so it's totally informal. It's obviously, like, just almost seems like, you know, let's get this over with and blow this off. Firewall describes a recent casual relationship with Sandra and admits he did visit her the night she died and that they had a brief argument. And he says that he had ended their relationship that night.
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And he denies being the father of Sandra's child, says, like, we haven't had sex in months. A week later on February 9th, Matthew turns his phone over to state troopers. They say they look through it and they say they don't find anything noteworthy in it. So either he deleted the text and they didn't look any further into it or they just didn't look into it. Right. We don't know.
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But while all this is going on, multiple people are telling higher-ups at the Stoughton Police Department about Sandra's relationship with Matthew and the involvement of Matthew's twin brother and the deputy chief, the one who ran the Explorers program. So people are talking because this is fucking suspicious as shit, you know?
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Do you want to do some highlights from our podcast network, Exactly Right Media?
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It's like clear to anyone, especially those involved.
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or basic understanding of like detective work.
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Yeah. At this point, Stoughton has its first ever female police chief, a woman named Donna McNamara, and thankfully she launches an internal affairs investigation. So this internal affairs investigation finds significant evidence backing up all of the allegations.
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It also uncovers the thousands of text messages between Sandra and Matthew, which the state troopers, for whatever reason, were unable to recover. Oh, there they are. So the results of the internal affairs investigation are made public in September of 2022.
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At a press conference, Chief McNamara says Sandra was quote, failed by, manipulated by, and used by people of authority that she admired and trusted right up until her final days. The admiration led her to form relationships with men who were willing to take advantage of her, end quote. And she had also tried to join the military as well.
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The information uncovered by this internal affairs investigation shows that the deputy chief who ran the Explorers program also acted inappropriately with other girls in the program. And it finds the timeline of Matthew Farwell's relationship with Sandra meant that he committed statutory rape. He is placed on leave that same month, but nobody presses charges for years. That is 2022.
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So then in May of 2024, the Marshall Project, which does investigative reporting about the criminal justice system, runs a story about widespread grooming and abuse in the Police Explorers program across the country. And it also discusses Sandra's death.
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And so at the time the article is published, the reporters find about 200 complaints of misconduct in the nationwide program, and more have since come out. So this development and others bring much more attention to Sandra's death, and many people join a movement to pressure the Norfolk County District Attorney to build a criminal case against Matthew.
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So on Wednesday, August 24th, 2024, this past August, Matthew Farwell is indicted on federal charges of murder. At this point, he's no longer employed by the Stoughton police, but it's the first time anyone has brought any charges against him. And it's the first time much of the evidence from his texts with Sandra and Sandra's other online activity is released to the public.
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So people are pissed and it's like kind of goes all the way to the top situation. Right.
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And if you want the latest on your favorite podcasts on Exactly Right Media, follow us for updates on shows like This Podcast Will Kill You and Buried Bones. Our handle is at exactlyright on all social media platforms. Please give us a follow. It just kind of helps with metrics and shit, you know.
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For an innocent girl to be murdered, that's fine with you. That's an okay trade-off to protect this person. Right. And this institution. The federal investigation also uncovers overlooked forensic evidence. A pathologist from the FBI finds that Sandra had injuries that would be inconsistent with the way her body was found.
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There's a fracture in her hyoid bone, which any fucking true crime amateur knows is from strangulation, right? Yeah, can be.
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However... That's true. And it also does happen when you, when a person's been hanged from the ceiling, not from a sitting position. It's never happened when someone's hanged from a seating position. Wow. So it's actually has no place here at all. It points otherwise. If she had been hanging from, you know, the ceiling, then it would have been a different story. Got it.
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So additionally, the FBI investigation reexamines photos from Sandra's apartment taken by either Canton police or state troopers on the day her body was found. And in the photos, Sandra's flamingo necklace, the one that was found broken on the floor by her family, is clearly visible.
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The broken chain is hanging off of her neck, and the pendant is resting on her stomach, as in she was wearing it when this happened. Mm-hmm. It slid off. It got ripped off somehow because it's broken. Oh, got it. So how would that happen without a struggle? Right. So somehow this necklace migrated from her body to the floor while investigators were on the scene. They didn't collect it as evidence.
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They just left it behind, which is like, why wouldn't you? It's because it's, this is evidence that like points to A struggle, you know? Yeah. Or they're just, they're actually not even looking that closely. Right. They already have said this is suicide. Let's move on. Right. Totally. So far, no state or county charges have been filed against Matthew.
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So the FBI has made their evidence available to those agencies. Sandra's loved ones and thousands of people who never knew her in life continue to pressure the DA to rectify the mistakes that local law enforcement made on this case and to bring their own charges.
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You know, you can't help but wonder what good Sandra Birchmore could have done if she had been able to follow her actual dreams of being in law enforcement. And maybe she would have mentored a new generation of at-risk kids who dreamed of being in law enforcement and, you know, had become the good cops we need so badly.
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On the day of the federal indictment, one of Sandra's friends told reporters, quote, Sandra, we can't bring you back, but we're fighting for you, end quote. And that is the story of the alleged murder of Sandra Birchmore. Wow.
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It's like a little Christmas Hanukkah present for us and for those podcasts.
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Totally. Like you're pulling a thread, a loose thread and the whole fucking thing falls apart. Yeah.
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All right. So that's this week. You go next week.
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So we're here with you. We're hoping you're having a good holiday season and it's not too insane. Make sure to go tandem skiing with your loved ones.
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Do you get angry as you unwrap your presents, knowing that whatever's underneath will probably be disappointing and your loved ones have failed you yet again? If the answer's yes, you might need therapy, my friend. Talkspace, the leading virtual therapy provider, makes getting the help you need easy, accessible, and affordable.
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There's a lot of money booth stories. A lot of fun stuff. It does feel like a little like camaraderie spot, the minisodes, where it's like we're a little, we're in like a club, you know? And everyone's just like telling their fun stories and fucked up stories too. So they're still there. It's all there. Fun stories to each other. It's all there.
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Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Our researchers are Maren McClashan and Allie Elkin.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder. Goodbye.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Once you meet your therapy goals, or if you want to cancel for any reason, Talkspace will provide you with a prorated refund for unused time. Guys, let's start 2025 with an appointment for therapy. Please. Can we do this? You know why? The people who cause you to need therapy will not go to therapy. Ever. I'm sorry. It's true.
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You need to learn how to deal with your emotions and their issues instead of begging them to go deal with their issues because they won't. I promise.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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To match with a licensed therapist today, go to Talkspace.com slash MFM and enter promo code SPACE80. You'll get $80 off your first month and show support for our show. That's Talkspace.com slash MFM and enter promo code SPACE80. Goodbye.
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Goodbye. All right.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah. This one's a hardcore one. Okay. And just a kind of heads up, this case is still currently playing out in the courts. So it's a really interesting one to follow. And if we were in England, we wouldn't be able to talk about this right now. We know that now in the UK. We know that now. Mm-mm.
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So this is a tragic and really honestly infuriating story that I had somehow never heard about, even though it was going on right over in Boston. As I said, it's still playing out in courts. And I checked on our Gmail and we only had a couple of mentions of it by murderinos, which I was really surprised about because you guys were always emailing us like, you should cover this case.
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And have you heard of this? So that was surprising. So I'm glad we're covering it. This is the story of the death of Sandra Birchmore. And just a note and a warning, this story involves grooming of a teenager for sexual assault and discusses suicide. So just a warning there.
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So the main sources I use for this story are an article in Boston Magazine called The Betrayal of Sandra Birchmore by Michelle McPhee. I highly recommend this article. It's really incredible. And I also use reporting from the Boston Globe and the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes.
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Okay, so it's February of 2021, pretty recently, and Sandra Birchmore is a 23-year-old woman living in Canton, Massachusetts. It's a Boston suburb, like it's on the outskirts of Boston, but it's like part of that Boston community. And Sandra has her own little apartment and new job teaching as an assistant at a local school. So it's been a hard fight for her to get to this place.
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Growing up, Sandra had struggled both academically and socially in school. Her teachers say that she acted like a kid who couldn't get enough attention at home, which kind of made her act out, but not in a bad way, like kind of just wanting attention from the teachers, but that also made her a target for bullies. Yeah.
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She would try to hang out with the teachers a lot, clearly just craving attention and validation from adults. And because of this, she was often isolated from her peers, which is really sad. Sandra had grown up without a father. Her last name, Birchmore, comes from her mother's late husband who died before Sandra was born, so who wasn't her father. And she actually never knew her biological father.
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Sandra's mother sounds like she did her best under very tough circumstances, but their relationship is often strained, and Sandra isn't always closely looked after. One of the most important people in her life is a grandfather figure. He's like an older family friend who actually acted like her grandfather.
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And he's a decorated Army veteran, and he fosters in Sandra from a young age a deep admiration for law enforcement. and makes her want to go into that field. When she's 12 or 13 years old, I'm not totally clear on that, Sandra's mother enrolls her in the police explorer's program in their hometown of Stoughton, Massachusetts. Obviously spelled in a way I would have said wrong if the phonetic.
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That's all of Massachusetts City.
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Yeah, so it's Stoughton. This is a program run by the Boy Scouts, now called Scouting America, with local police departments where children become junior police cadets and learn about police work. Sandra had begged to join this program, and her mother finally makes it happen when she's 13. And during this time in the Explorers, Sandra does better academically.
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She finds some community and friendship in the program, and it seems like she really flourishes by finally getting to do this. So around the time Sandra graduates from high school, Sandra's mother writes a letter to the deputy police chief who runs the Explorers program, thanking him for its impact on Sandra's life. It's clearly made a difference.
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Tragically, Sandra's mother dies shortly after this. Oh, God. I know. Losing the only parent in her life leaves Sandra unmoored, of course, and vulnerable. Sandra's two aunts move in with her to support her, but their relationship is kind of tense and strained, and it takes her a few years to find her footing. But by late 2020, Sandra is in a much better place. She's in community college.
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She's made some very close friends with other young women there. Her aunts, cousins, friends, and coworkers consistently describe her as relentlessly positive, even in the toughest circumstances. She's also very talkative and upbeat. In fact, a lot of people would classify her as a bit of an overshare, which is like, Hi, welcome. Hi. Yes. To me. To me.
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She will often tell her new coworkers everything that's going on in her life, even if it's the first time they've had a conversation, which I fucking do too. It's a way to, it's like a bid to get connection, you know?
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That kind of feeling. Rather than us spending a bunch of time together and realizing we don't like each other. Let me tell you what's wrong with me now. So you can walk away if you want to.
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It's like over vulnerability in a way that it's, That isn't authentic somehow.
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Yeah. And I'm in charge of it. Totally, that makes absolute sense. Sandra is a redhead with a ton of freckles, sweet little face. She looks younger than she is her whole life in these pictures I've seen of her. So all this oversharing she's doing includes some exciting news. At the very end of 2020, Sandra finds out she's pregnant. Her friends say she's absolutely thrilled about it.
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She's only a few weeks along, but she's already shopping for baby items and scheduling doctor's appointments. And she's told quite a few people Because that's the way she is. And she's excited. And she has plans to announce the pregnancy on Valentine's Day, according to her text with friends. She's planning a gender reveal.
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She even already asked a friend to watch her two cats when she has to go deliver the baby in the hospital, which is months away. So she is excited about this and planning for it. Yeah. So on February 4th, 2021, when Sandra fails to show up for work, her colleagues are concerned and they call the police for a wellness check. So that day is a Thursday.
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On the previous Monday, there had been a heavy snowstorm and school had been dismissed early. So it sounds like school is back in session on Tuesday and Wednesday, but for whatever reason, no one checks in until Thursday. When Canton police arrive at Sandra's apartment, there's no answer at the door. The door is locked, but they see her car in the parking lot covered in snow.
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Hello and welcome to my favorite murder. That right there is Georgia Hardstark. Hello, that's me. And that right there is Karen Kilgariff. Goodbye. See ya later. She's not participating and she refuses to talk to you. She stormed out. She's really mad. What did you guys say to her? Jesus.
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So they assume she's there. They get a key from the building management and they let themselves in. So when they get to Sandra's bedroom, and here just the warning is the description of a death rule to be suicide, they find her body and the immediate impression is that she has died by suicide. It appears she has hanged herself in a seated position from the door to her bedroom closet. Oh.
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Yeah, it's very distressing. Sandra's two cats are in the apartment and they're fine, but it appears she made no arrangements for their care. If she was planning to take her own life, you know, she had made plans for months in advance when the baby was born. Why wouldn't she have done it then? As well, right? Right. And also, why would she be making plans months in advance?
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And this is just one of the many details the Canton police overlooks in their initial investigation into Sandra's death. The police call in help from state troopers and emergency medical personnel also report to the scene, although Sandra is already dead. A state trooper notes that there appears to be no sign of foul play, and the medical examiner also rules the death a suicide.
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He says that Sandra had died several days earlier. So Sandra's aunt, a woman named Darlene Smith, is named as the emergency contact on Sandra's lease. And so when she gets the horrific news about her niece, she's immediately suspicious and knows shit's not adding up. Yeah. She calls her other niece, Sandra's cousin, a woman named Barbara Wright, who totally agrees as well.
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These two grieving women are tasked with cleaning out Sandra's apartment in the days immediately following her death. And this is what they find. Sandra had been in the middle of doing laundry when she supposedly took her own life. She had a load going in the dryer and a load in the washing machine.
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She had sent text messages back and forth with a few different friends about random everyday things. And on the evening she died, she had scheduled an OB appointment. So, you know, crazy. Yeah, it doesn't make sense. Yeah. No, the math's not mathing, as they say.
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When going through the apartment, they find a homemade sign that says, congratulations, we're going to be parents, assumably to whoever the father was. It's written in elaborate script with magic markers, has glitter and animal stickers on it. Clearly she's excited about this. They find an ultrasound photo decorated with more glitter. They find Sandra's necklace, which she always wore.
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459 - We’re Both Skiing
It's a gold chain with a flamingo pendant and it's found on the floor and the chain is broken and it's next to like a clump of hair. Mm-hmm. As if they had been pulled, you know. And the police either never saw it or simply never explained it away. Because it's left behind. Right. Both Barbara and Denise knew that Sandra had a boyfriend and that he was a police detective and that he was married.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Yeah, but a GPS isn't going to steer you. You know what I mean? Correct. Like, I don't think learning DPS would have helped at all. I think maybe something, staying on the ground might have been a better decision. Walking. How about a long walk to raise money?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
How many times, like, how many decades apart do we need to learn this lesson? It shouldn't be that close.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Look away. Like, oh, no, this isn't good.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Okay. We were both on the other sides of the... I don't think mine's right, though. I just think it's funny. That would be very funny. Today you asked for family drama, and I come from two large Catholic families and started thinking through all the family lore and shenanigans. Could I tell you the story about dangling my little cousin down the second floor laundry chute? Oh.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Your best friends and then you fucking hate each other more than you've ever hated anyone. Yeah. And then your best friends the next day.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Did you see that one? Like there's like a TikTok video of like the older sister. She's probably like 10 telling her little sister exactly how to ask her for what she wants. Yeah. And it's, you know, and at the end, no, you may not. I'm that little sister. I'm so triggered by that as a little sister.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Please, may I not? No, you may not. No, you may not.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Let's face it, we take way too many photos every year, but how often do we get a chance to show them off? With Oriframes, it's ridiculously easy to share your favorite pictures with the ones you love. They allow users to curate and share their photos and memories with loved ones, making it a personal and meaningful gift.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Or about the island my family used to own in Pittsburgh until they squandered away all of their money and it was seized by the government? Yeah. Nope, it has to be the bloody handprint on my grandparents' basement wall. Oh, shit. When I was growing up, my grandparents lived in a split-level home, read lots of stairs, and the lowest level was a cement basement.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
It's the cutest. And your niece with a sunset. That's so sweet. I love that. Save on the perfect gift by visiting AuraFrames.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carver matte frames by using promo code MFM at checkout. That's A-U-R-A frames.com promo code MFM. This deal is exclusive to our listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. Goodbye.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
This is called an absolute child hero. Yes. Hi, it's me, the child hero. It's me. For the past 24 years, I've had a thin white box in the bottom of my jewelry box. Inside is a bronze medal attached to a red, white, and blue ribbon fastened to a pin. You're welcome. George Washington's bust is under the words, Good Citizenship Award.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
In 2000, I was given this medal, interviewed by a local news station and got my name in the paper. This is a story of how I helped to save my teacher's life. Holy shit. I love this. I remember watching a movie about penguins. All desks were pushed to the sides in my second grade classroom and all the kids were sitting huddled together under the TV in the dark. Picture it. Ugh. Ugh.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
I slowly and quietly got closer to her until I could see her eyes were closed. My heart was beating so fast and my chest felt on fire. I decided I needed to tell the most in-charge adult in the school, the principal, Mr. Johnson. I remember running down the hallway to get there. I made it breathlessly to the front office. The secretary asked, what do you need?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
I responded, Miss Hill is sleeping on the floor and she won't wake up. She stood up, opened Mr. Johnson's office door behind her and repeated what I said. Like a superhero, he popped up and started running. When he got there, he turned on all the lights, scared the shit out of my second grade class, and immediately started performing CPR.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
The paramedics were called and all kids were ushered into another room for the rest of the day. I went home and did my homework as usual, not sharing the events of the day with anyone.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
It wasn't until Mr. Johnson called my mom that night and told her what I did that I realized it was important. I remember my mom with her ear to the phone, tears streaming down her face, just staring at me. It turns out Miss Hill suffered cardiac arrest at the age of 50. Oh, no. Due to the quick action of Mr. Johnson and the paramedics, she made a full recovery.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
If she had gone without CPR for two minutes more, she would have had permanent brain damage.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Yeah. Miss Hill was in the hospital for the rest of the school year and retired that summer. She never taught, nor did I ever see her again. I would, however, get called down to the attendance office every year on the anniversary of the event. Miss Hill sent me letters from when I was eight to 18, thanking me for saving her life. The last letter I received was when I was a senior in high school.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
I was down there one day, probably trying to find their grumpy cat, Mo, when I noticed something on one of the cement walls. I looked a little closer and thought it faintly looked like a brownish-colored handprint, obviously faded with time. Later that day in the car, I asked my dad, hey, is there a handprint on the basement wall at grandma's house? Oh, yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Miss Hill. Miss Hill writes her letters. She keeps up with her letters. That's lovely. The best part of the story, I did some light stalking while composing this email. Miss Hill is still alive, a beautiful woman in her mid-70s. Her social media is filled with pictures of her children and six grandchildren. Come on. Well, that's how I peaked at seven years old.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Thank you both for creating the podcast that created this community. At the same time, this little girl helped to save a life. Finding a dead body was on her bucket list and CSI was her favorite show. Yeah, girl. I knew I wasn't the only weirdo. No. Stay sexy and look for the helpers, even the tiny ones. Bailey, she, her. Bailey.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Right, like I'm opening with this thing I have.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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It's all going to work. Maybe that was the first fucking instance of your badassery. And for the rest of your life now, you've been on this trajectory. You're just doing it.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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What the fuck? Oh, because it was like heavy? Could squirt a baby.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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That's from when your great grandmother died. What? Yep. Here's the story. Oh. Oh, no. She fell and hit her head. At some point, she touched her bloody head and then touched the wall, leaving the infamous bloody handprint. It is exact. Yes, it is exactly what you think it's going to be. Jesus Christ.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Oh, my God. Oh, my God. My toes hurt thinking about that.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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And there's still good memories, even though they're tainted by this thing. It sucks. By loss. You can still share them with people and feel them and feel good about them instead of just feeling... Sad. That's really sweet. Yeah.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I wanted her to see it. It makes me think of my brother because he would never have done that. Asher. My sister would have been like, get out of the sandpit. This is our sandpit. What a sweetheart. I know. All right. Well, thank you guys for listening to The Hometowns. Please send yours in, whatever it is, at MyFavoriteMurder at Gmail. Try to make us cry. That'll be the new request. Dare you.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I will cry. That's easy, though.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Don't do that. Also, stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
This episode was mixed by Liana Squalacci.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
And follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder. Goodbye.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
She did not die there on the floor, but she was not found until the morning and was taken to the hospital where she died later.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Why am I doing this story is a question I'm asking myself right now.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I mean, the hamper remains to this day, I think, is the point that all our families are fucking morbid and weird and we just go along with it like everything's fine.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Rinsing, painting over it. Thanks for all you do and share. This podcast has dramatically impacted the way I see the world and myself. And though my husband is not a listener, he doesn't need to be because I literally retell him every single episode. Stay sexy and dig deep for those family stories because everyone's got them. Yeah, that's true. Beth. Beth, good point.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
I think that's the point is like everyone has a bloody handprint from their great grandmother in the basement wall.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Okay. You know, I'm going to stick, I am sticking with it. I am, what is it, sticking by my.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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There were so many episodes.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Having no idea what was happening, but there was a fucking tidal wave happening. But now we're doing rewind episodes, so you can listen to those instead of going back to the first 100. You can listen to the rewind episodes.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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I was like, what's my brain telling my mouth that I said 843? This is our podcast and nothing has changed from the first 100 to now. It's also the 100. It's actually not that different from when it was in the beginning.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
So we have a little back house that we let guests stay in, friends stay in when they want to. And recently a good friend of mine wanted to stay back there and none of my friends had stayed back there, only Vincent. So I kind of hadn't done anything to it because I don't care, but I wanted to impress her. Where did I go? Freaking article.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
So like, for example, there was just a like a plain mattress on wheels back there, you know, that I didn't care about. Then I saw this Calabria bed. It's gorgeous. It's like simple, but it adds so much style. I threw
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Give us the benefit of the doubt. Now go. Okay. Now that we've just berated them. They like it. This is called Family Drama, Bloody Handprint. Hi. Day seven listener here, a longtime dreamer of writing a hometown, but I never felt I had the right story. Wait, wait, wait. I don't know. Episode seven or day seven? Like seven days after we released the first episode? I don't know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Okay, this one's called The Balloon Priest. Yep, you read that right. He would be friends with Lawn Chair Larry. That's the whole subject line. Hi, Karen, Georgia, an MFM team. I have a hometown that will match Karen's story for Lawn Chair Larry, and it comes all the way from Brazil. The Balloon Priest, a tale equal parts inspiring, bizarre, and undeniably tragic.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
The year was 2008, and on April 20th, Father Adelir Antonio de Carli, or as he became known, the balloon priest, took flight from a city in the south of Brazil attached to 1,000 helium balloons. Father Adelir's mission wasn't just about grabbing attention. He had a purpose in mind.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
His goal was to raise funds for a rest area and chapel for truck drivers where they could take a break from the road, recharge, and find spiritual comfort. Sorry. That's so specific. I know. It's for like, maybe it's a cultural thing. I don't know.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
But how about let's think about the truck drivers. They're also hungry. Yeah. And tired. And they needed spiritual comfort. But to accomplish this, he decided to break the record for cluster ballooning and make it all the way to the state where his brother lived. It was both audacious and outrageous. People couldn't look away.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
Adelier even went through jungle survival courses, parachute training, and packed a GPS parachute and five days worth of food and water. On what? Are they about to tell us? I don't know. Packed on his back? I guess so. The only problem, he didn't know how to use the GPS.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
MFM Minisode 414
After taking off and reaching a dizzying 19,000 feet, and it says way higher than planned, he was heard frantically saying, quote, I need to figure out this GPS or no one will know where I am, end quote. It was a detail only our priest could overlook, but to his credit, he tried valiantly to reach the Coast Guard before his phone battery died.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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Unfortunately, by the time he called in his position, he was far off course, swept out over the ocean. Oh, no. Despite efforts by the Navy, Air Force, and even a plane rented by his family, hope faded. Months later, in July 2008, the lower half of a body was found floating off the coast of Rio de Janeiro, 522 miles away from where he took flight.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
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DNA tests confirmed it was Father Adelier closing this chapter in his remarkable journey. Cool. God, that's sad. And then it says, jump to 2013. A pop country duo drops a dancing track that skyrockets to the top of the Brazilian charts and has everybody dancing to it in nightclubs and social events. I am going to leave you with some of the lyrics from that song. The sun is blazing. It's past noon.