Ezra Klein
Appearances
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
It's a little harder this year for two reasons. One is that Donald Trump is a huge liar. And so he often says things that are untrue or he doesn't follow through on things that he's otherwise talked about, right? If you had believed Donald Trump in 2015 and 2016 when he said he was going to raise taxes on people like himself and give everybody great healthcare, like you would have been misled.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Although I do think that the Republican agenda, the platform they authored, is actually worth reading and assuming is sort of his intuition about that set of things. And it does have a lot of explanatory value in my view. And then Harris was not the nominee until very, very recently. And so she has not written a campaign book.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
She has not gone through a policy process with her advisors releasing what her agenda for the country is. I do think it's actually useful to read her older books. And I just recently read Smart on Crime, her 2009 book, which is a very interesting way of thinking about who Harris was in California politics. Again, like not a great book, but very revealing about her. But it's hard.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Donald Trump is somebody whose words you cannot trust. And Kamala Harris hasn't had as long to shape words in a coalitional process as candidates normally do. So in terms of what this election is about, that makes it a little bit harder.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
But because Donald Trump has been the leader of the Republican Party for some time now, and Kamala Harris is the vice president of the United States as we speak, you can get a much better idea than you could if both candidates were unknown quantities. But again, the thing to look at is... is what they have already said aloud.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And to try to look at that in full, like not in the way a newspaper reports it or a cable news clip or a social media clip reports it, but like actually go watch the full speech, actually go read the full speech, actually go read the old book. You really get a lot out of it.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
For the most part, the people who ascend to the top of political parties and become their nominees broadly reflect what that political party has been trying to do, where it has power for some time. Donald Trump was genuinely an exception to this in 2016, to the extent anybody is. And still, for all that... He came into office. He tried to repeal Obamacare.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
He passed a bunch of tax cuts for rich people. He did a bunch of deregulation and loosened environmental standards. I mean, a lot of what he did was bog standard, like what Paul Ryan had wanted to do and what Mitch McConnell wanted to do before Donald Trump was on the scene. And that reflects something very real, which is presidents are leaders of coalitions and
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And they have to pass legislation through Congress. And they can't even write the legislation. I mean, Congress has to write it and introduce it in a technical way. And then it gets amended there. And you got to, you know, get through the filibuster unless you're using the weird rules to get you around the filibuster.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
So to understand what they're going to do, it's like this mixture of what are they saying? And what is possible and supported by the balance of congressional power they're going to be facing? And those are knowable things. Now, again, this is pretty different than the question of who's going to win the election.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
It's different than looking for inspiration, which is, I think, another very reasonable thing people go looking for in American politics, different than looking for hope. Right. And so I think this is a tough balance.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I think a lot about the 2020 Democratic primary where debate after debate after debate after debate began with like 15 to 25 minutes on whether or not the candidates supported Medicare for all and to the extent they did support Medicare for all. Did they really support abolishing all private health insurance the way Bernie Sanders did?
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Or did they support abolishing only some private health insurance the way Kamala Harris did in what was considered a triangulating gaffe for her campaign? And this was, to anybody who knew what Congress looked like at that juncture... it was like what kind of castles they supported building on the moon, right?
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
It was completely clear that Congress was not going to abolish all private health insurance in any relevant scenario of the election. And I mean, it's fine to talk about that, you know, once or twice, because it reflects important things about, say, how Bernie Sanders understands the economy. I mean, he means it, and I deeply respect, you know, the way he was willing to bite the bullet on that.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And it inspired many people. And, you know, over time, it might make something like that more likely. Right. There are all kinds of reasons that simply asking the question of what is politically possible right now is not the only question you want to ask. But there did emerge an unreality because they were acting as if Congress didn't exist. But Congress does exist.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And so you have to you sort of have to match the rhetoric with the coalition. Welcome to political science class with Ezra Klein here.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Yes. I mean, take the debate over Biden stepping aside. The most consequential thing that happened in that entire fight was that two days after Joe Biden send a letter to all congressional Democrats saying, I am running. I have the primary votes to be the nominee. This conversation is over. Thank you for airing your views. We are done talking about this. I am not dropping out.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
You are trying to defy the will of Democratic primary voters. Enough is enough. If you keep criticizing me, you're empowering Donald Trump because there is no other choice but me here. Nancy Pelosi... instead of leaking something anonymously, went on Morning Joe and said, we are all really looking forward to the president making this consequential decision he has before him.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
We will support whatever he decides on this question of whether or not he should run again for president. We understand that he probably wants to wait on this until after the NATO summit. I mean, it was...
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
The single most remarkable act of political genius I have ever seen, and we could talk about why, I mean, it was a completely nonlinear intervention into the debate, simply asserting that he had not made the decision he had. But what was crucial about it was that it happened in public.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And if none of those people, starting with, I think it was Lloyd Doggett of Texas, a Democratic member of Congress, those people who were publicly saying things that Biden should step aside. If they had all done it privately, all those sort of leaks about, oh, Democratic members are very upset in private, none of it would have mattered. What mattered was public.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
What mattered was what happened in public. This is also true, by the way, for Donald Trump. Donald Trump says all kinds of things to people in private. Now, he's a little bit unusual because what he says in public often doesn't matter that much either. Right. But it is what happens in public that matters.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
All those Republicans in 2016 who would privately say Donald Trump should not be the nominee and then publicly say, well, of course I'm voting for Donald Trump as a nominee. It was a public thing that mattered. I'm not saying there are never instances where private things matter because, of course, there are. I am saying that...
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I really advise people who want to follow the election, not just sanely, but predictively, that they actually watch and read the things that candidates say and do for their consumption in public. The reason candidate books are important is that the candidate is answering a genuinely important question, which is, given their entire life and all of their accomplishments,
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
How do they want the entire public to see them? Given this one opportunity to craft their entire story for public consumption, how do they do it? It doesn't mean it's the honest story. It doesn't mean it's one even they really believe. But that is such a consequential question to answer as a human being that it really matters.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
It wasn't about noticing it was a problem. Everybody knew it was a problem. It was about allowing yourself to know what you were noticing, if that makes sense. My private experience of this was basically all at once, and I happened to be at the White House on the day this happened. Biden had decided not to do the Super Bowl interview.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
He was not doing interviews in general, and definitely not hard interviews. He was running behind Donald Trump. So running behind in the election and then not doing the Super Bowl interview was just a completely wild political calculation, right?
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Yes. So, you know, brands pay God knows how much for 30 seconds at the Super Bowl. The president, by custom and tradition, gets an interview that's like four to seven minutes, call it. So that is, you know, if brands pay five, 10 million for 30 seconds, you're dealing with something like $80, $90 million in free media. You're going to say no to that when you're behind? Right.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And then the special counsel report comes out, Robert Herr's document, saying that Biden's memory is terrible. He comes off like a well-meaning but doddering old man. Biden gives a press conference where the point of the press conference is to rebut the report, and he's very angry about the report. And then when he answers a question from a reporter, which he just doesn't do that often—
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
He mixes up Egypt and Mexico, which isn't the biggest deal in the world, but said to me that even in these moments where he really has to perform, he's not able to reliably do it. He barely gave any press conferences that year. That conference had one role, which is to say my memory is fine. This report was a partisan hack job, and he managed to create the very problem he was looking to avoid.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And so my view after that, I had sort of gone into that day around the Super Bowl thing being like, is he really up for this? And come out of it saying, he's not. He's not up for this. He's not able to reliably perform at the level you would need to do to campaign aggressively to make up a gap in the polls here. Okay.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I don't think I was that unusual in saying that Biden probably shouldn't run again. I think that the thing that I added to the conversation was taking what were the alternatives seriously. Yeah. So... When I would talk to people in the Democratic Party, they would basically say, look, maybe we should have had a primary. Maybe it would be good if we had a primary.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Then we would have sort of known how he runs. But it's over. There wasn't a primary, right, as Marianne Williamson and Dean Phillips. He's the nominee. There's nothing that can be done. And my view is that that wasn't true, right? Democrats have a convention. And if Biden could be persuaded to step aside, one of two things could happen.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Either the nomination could be sort of given to Kamala Harris, the vice president, or there could be some kind of open process that would be then decided at the convention. Right. And the series of pieces I did were about fleshing that out, right? Both fleshing out my view that Kamala Harris was underrated as a political talent. I didn't know by how much.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Turns out by a whole lot, it would be my current view. But that people should view Harris as a better bet than Joe Biden. And that even if they did not view Harris as a better bet than Biden, which at that point many in the party did not... an open convention process with this sort of contest leading up to it would reveal who in the party was a better bet than Biden.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And I think in the sort of competition we've seen for the vice presidency, where you saw sort of Waltz and Shapiro and Buttigieg and to some degree Mark Kelly, Roy Cooper of North Carolina, Beshear of Kentucky, you saw there was actually a tremendous amount of political talent in the party. Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan, Gavin Newsom.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
If there had been an open process, that talent would have revealed itself. And so I was trying to say that February was not a time when people should have fatalism about this. That there wasn't now a primary process, but there still could be a party process. And the party had the power to persuade Joe Biden not to run.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And if Joe Biden could be persuaded not to run, the party had a series of options it could decide between. And all of them were better than the thing it was currently barreling towards, which was a situation where Biden, for reasons of his age— had a collapse at a key moment or a series of key moments, which I think is more or less what happened at the debate.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I don't know. That's the honest truth of it. I... It's funny, nobody's asked me that exactly. I felt after that 24-hour period... I had had a kind of internal cognitive reshuffling where I'd been sort of pushing away all this stuff about Biden's age, and then I wasn't. And the moment I wasn't, the internal experience was like, oh, no. Like, this is actually really bad.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Donald Trump is going to win this election. Like, that was how I felt. And... My job is to say things I think are true in an analytically rigorous way and in a well-reported way, but to say things I think are true.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And when I stopped pushing away what I thought was going to happen here, like, when I stopped ignoring, like, the videos going around of Joe Biden calling a world leader by a dead world leader's name. Yeah.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Or Joe Biden having these moments where he'd sort of trail off in the middle of a sentence, when instead of saying to myself, Republicans are sending around all these, you know, badly edited videos saying Joe Biden's senile, and he's not senile, and I don't believe he's senile now...
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
But instead of asking that question, if I just like looked at the polling, OK, 60, 70, 80 percent of people, depending on the poll, say Joe Biden is too old to be an effective president. I knew that most Democrats had opposed him running for reelection in polling. And these videos are going around.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
He's getting murdered among young people in polling, right, because they're seeing all these videos of him looking ancient on TikTok. What's he going to do about this? Nothing is the answer. He cannot do anything about it because fundamentally it is not true in the way Republicans are saying it is true, but it is true in the way the voters already believe it is true.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And having had an opportunity to rebut that, he's not taking it. He's either failing to rebut it or he's not even taking the opportunities to be seen in a way that would rebut it. There's a real problem here. Then he gave this sort of strong State of the Union and everybody's like, Ezra's an idiot. But I don't know what I thought would happen.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
It's not like I thought I would release a podcast into the world. And all of a sudden, Joe Biden would be the nominee anymore. What I thought I was doing when I really sat down to sort of map out those episodes was I understood my role as... Getting people used to the idea of alternatives because I thought there was going to come a point where they had to break glass and take one of them. Right.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And so, again, the two alternatives to me were getting people over this idea that Kamala Harris is such a weak candidate, that she's a weaker candidate than a Joe Biden suffering from this level of age-related diminishment. Right. and getting people over the idea that an open convention was unthinkable if Harris wasn't, in your view, a strong enough candidate.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And it's very hard, I think, now to overstate how pervasive the belief in Harris's weakness was inside the Democratic Party. That was the single biggest thing I faced when reporting this out, right? Everybody would say, fine, like what you're saying about Biden is true, but Harris is probably the other candidate if he steps aside and she cannot win. And the estimations of her were very, very low.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I thought and argued back then that they were too low, but I didn't know how high they should really be. But to me, I thought people had to get used to the idea that there were other options because it seemed not 100%, but it seemed very plausible to me that at some point over the next three or four or five months,
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
before the convention, something was going to happen that was going to lead to Joe Biden being down five points in the polls and people realizing he was not going to make up that gap. And if it happened before the convention, they could do something about it.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
It was also, by the way, possible that something would happen where Biden just had to step aside for health-related reasons, and they should know what the options were in that case, too. But I sort of saw myself as socializing and thinking through how these different things might actually work. Why was Harris... seen the way she was in the party? Did that actually make sense?
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And how did this thing that used to be very normal in American politics but wasn't normal anymore, an open convention, actually function? And then the Biden team scheduled the early debate, which whoever did that, I think, is accidentally an American hero. And that created the moment in time for the party to act.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Yeah, and I guess the other thing that you'll hear in my thinking across this whole episode, which connects in a way I wouldn't have expected, is that the way I think about politics is in terms of institutions and coalitions, first and foremost. I am not candidate-centric in the way some people are.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I have done a lot of work trying to get people over the idea that American politics is all about the president. The president is very important, but not the only actor in the system. And I think one place that I just really disagreed with people for an extremely long period here was I felt the Democratic Party was a stronger institution than they did.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And by the way, that went for people who are the official Democrats, like the chair of the Democratic Party, for instance. And people would tell me all the time that the Democratic Party didn't have the capability to do something like this. We're in the age of hollow parties, not strong parties. After the debate, there was all this talk
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
about how, you know, this was a decision only Joe Biden and his family could and would make, right? This is for them, you know, nobody else has influence. And I thought that was crazy. The piece I did right after, which was another audio essay, the piece I did right after the debate was called, What is a Democratic Party For?,
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And parties are informal networks in the way they're constructed in American political life, but they are still important. And they had all kinds of leverage. I mean, if Biden was losing support among members of Congress, that would be an important signal to him. If donors were fleeing him, then he wouldn't have the money to actually run the election in the way he wanted to.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
If media elites who he read or who other people read, right? Parties are informal structures of influence, of actual leverage. And I thought there was more... power in the Democratic Party, more institutional strength than a lot of people did.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And I felt that because I had watched the Democratic Party over a series of elections make highly strategic decisions going back to when in 2020 it has a sort of overnight coalescence around Biden, where Pete Buttigieg, who was a candidate who won Iowa, Joe Biden didn't win Iowa, Pete Buttigieg and Amy Klobuchar dropped out at the same time and endorsed Biden after South Carolina. And
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
In, you know, 2018, there had been very good candidate recruitment and selection in the Democratic Party, and they often had not gone with a candidate in a primary they wanted, right? They went with the candidate they thought could win. And I watched then a similar thing happen in 2020, and they did a really good job in 2022.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And there's this idea like, oh, the Democratic Party can't possibly make hard decisions to choose its most competitive candidate. Yeah. I was like, who says it can't do that? It now had the governorships in Michigan, in Pennsylvania, in Wisconsin, in Arizona, in North Carolina. You're telling me this party can't make strategic decisions?
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
This party, when faced with a choice between doing the thing it needed to do to win an election against a MAGA candidate and falling completely apart, it was just going to fall completely apart? Why would you believe that? That was not what the party had been doing. But that was about thinking about politics institutionally, about seeing it not as, you know, just one person.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
The Republican Party is trickier. I mean, it does still have very coalitional dynamics, but it really is under the thumb of Donald Trump to the point that the co-chair of the RNC is Donald Trump's entirely unqualified daughter-in-law, Laura Trump. The Republican Party is just a personality cult, but the Democratic Party isn't that, and that's not who Joe Biden is or was.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And so there's just, yeah, you could look at that, I thought, and see it had options, and if it decided to act, it could act. And it did. Yeah.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Yeah, I only speak here for my personality type, which other people have other experiences with social media and being on there than I do. I don't think I would have written that piece if I was... a ongoing participant in online liberal social media. It's funny because I ended up joining Twitter or X or whatever again for like three-ish weeks, I think.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
At the height of, was Joe Biden going to step down? because there was a weird moment where sentiment was shifting in such a minute-to-minute way that I thought that was the place where that conversation, one of the places at least, where that conversation was actually playing out and people were being influenced.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And then there are people like, ha, I see you've proven that X is really where the influence is, and I'm back off of it now. And yeah, my view was it was useful information to me in that couple of weeks, but I never would have done the initial pieces had I been on it.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I don't think it would have been consciously, oh, I believe this and I can't say it. I don't think that's typically how human beings work. I mean, it is sometimes. But I do think what we allow ourselves to see...
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
has to do with what is good for us to see and i think there's a lot of psychological evidence in favor of this point and so the the sorts of arguments we find compelling i think there's almost an automatic self-protective device coming in from the the community um and you know we are very social creatures and we don't want to be at odds with our communities
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I just want everybody to like me and for everything to be copacetic.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Yeah, exactly. And so to think independently, I can't be connected to that many people.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I think I got into politics in my own memory of it through this mixture of 9-11 happened when I was in high school And all of a sudden, politics seemed very important. It seemed like it cared about me, whether I cared about it. And my older brother was, is very into politics in Los Angeles and was, is a very big influence on me. And those two things together started pulling me in.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
First, I think there's a question is, is the thing you want actually to stay sane? Because it might not be. I don't think, look, I think that you could have a sane view on this election that would be, if anything, more telling by just reading the New York Times once a day. I think that would be plenty. It's plenty of election information.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Add in Politico if you want or the Washington Post, and you're going to know plenty. And you'll know actually a lot of deep things that you won't get on Twitter. And you know things that are contrary to what people in your circle find interesting that you won't find on threads or whatever.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
But it's not going to be in a way like the most fun and exciting way to follow the election. I mean, there's a lot of memes happening right now and people are excited and there's, you know, weird intellectual currents. And so maybe you do want to plug into that. When I say I'm not on some of these things, it doesn't mean I'm not looking at them.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And I'm probably looking at them right now more than I want to. And I know that doesn't make me a saner person. But it is interesting. And there are things that are happening there right now that are important. And so I do think it goes back to this question of, well, what do you want? I wouldn't pretend that.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
that you're being informed in the best possible way about American politics by checking in constantly, like, 42 times a day on the election. There's not that much information happening on any given day that is meaningful. And if you want to know more about American politics, you should actually be looking at, like, the coverage of house races and local media and, you know...
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I'm not sure I initially got into it in terms of following elections, and I've never really thought of myself as somebody who's primarily in politics because I find the horse race interesting. But elections decide who has power. Power decides who can make policy, and policy is a thing that I am in this to follow and to hopefully influence. Yeah.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Thinking a lot about the economy and reading the forecast reports from, you know, good economic forecasters because whether it was a recession in the fourth quarter is actually going to matter more than what the memes are saying today.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
But if, you know, if you just want to be plugged into the election, if you want that thing jacked into your vein because it's important and that just feels like where you got to be right now. I don't have a moral... Case against people doing that. I don't think elections, high stakes elections, are built for sanity. I think they actually are deranging.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And one thing that is true is that you can have perfectly good information about them, but also miss the structure of feeling around them. if you don't allow yourself to become a little bit deranged.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I think you can't understand, for instance, the role JD Vance is playing in this election and what is happening around him on the Republican ticket unless you jack yourself into an information feed that is deranging wild and, like, will make you a little bit of a worse person. But if you're not willing to do that, you are not going to understand what is happening there.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Like, the way he's become a liability for Donald Trump... Like, if you don't know anything about J.D. Vance and couches, whether or not that is fair to J.D. Vance, you don't understand what has happened, which is that J.D. Vance has become a soft target that every faction in the Democratic Party and the sort of broad, sprawling, informal Democratic coalition smells blood around. Because...
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
He is like Donald Trump has chosen the most off-putting kid in school because that kid was the most sycophantic to Donald Trump himself to be his running mate.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And in doing, Donald Trump has revealed something about himself, has opened up a vulnerability that wouldn't necessarily have been open otherwise because Donald Trump has reminded you of a certain weirdness because that is like the term that has emerged in him. that he could have covered up with a Doug Burgum, that he could have made less sailing with a Marco Rubio. But J.D.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Vance is the kind of MAGA candidate who loses. And Trump has made himself into a little bit more of a loser than... by choosing Vance.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
He's reminded you that he likes this sort of weird online right subculture that's actually not the thing that he represents or comes out of, but is the thing that has taken shape behind him and beneath him, and that keeps blowing winnable elections for Republicans because these people come off as very strange because actually the culture they come out of is very, very strange.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And you can't feel that in its full texture if you're not watching JD Vance get bullied out of American public life on X, which is, like, not a sentence I love saying.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And so, you know, you got to care about the elections.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I think the thing I am saying here is, because I don't exactly want to be the enabler for everybody to lose their minds, their search engine nation to completely throw out all their good information habits, is just that I think there is a kind of information happening right now on social media that is proving important. And you can choose to be in that information stream or not.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
You don't need it. Like, if you know how you're going to vote, you can tune the whole fucking thing out. And just go in and cast your ballot in November. You don't need to follow it. If you want to understand the thing that's happening, then you need to follow it, but you also need to recognize that it's partial. So, if you are on, like, liberal social media right now...
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
The structure of sentiment is telling you something real about the joy and enthusiasm and anger and confidence and ruthlessness that has suddenly emerged among Democrats. It was not there three months ago. in their grim death march to defeat.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
But it is not going to tell you very much about why Pennsylvania is a 49-49 state at the moment, you know, in some polls, and how, like, older white suburbanites in Pennsylvania will vote because they and not, you know, deranged meme makers are probably going to be the crucial, like, swing category in the election.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
So there's truth and there's untruth, there's what you're seeing and what's obscuring. It's all there at the same time.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
It goes back to, what are you trying to do here, right? Is what you're trying to do to just have election vibes 24-7? Because that's what we're talking about on some level. is what you're trying to do to have the most useful information about the election, you're probably getting more of that from more established news sources.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
No. What do they feel like to me? So I like romantic comedies. Uh-huh. And I always sort of wish the movie would stay in like the first 35 minutes where nothing has gone wrong and there are no stakes and everybody is bantering back and forth.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Because, yes, eventually the couch memes will get talked about, but you're also going to hear about actual campaign strategy, and you're also going to hear about... who's targeting what how and fundraising and all these other things that really do matter, is what you want to do to be helpful. Like, then you might want to volunteer, you know, to phone bank for house races, right?
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Where, you know, or actually, like, pay attention to local politics in your town where there's probably elections happening that you could really meaningfully influence. There's a concept that the political scientist Etan Hirsch has called political hobbyism. He's got this book called Politics is for Power.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And he makes this distinction between hobbyists and people trying to actually affect things in politics. But he says it correctly, that a lot of us, we follow politics like it is a sport. And we are not following it with an eye towards influencing the outcome. We're not even really following it with an eye towards being informed in some accurate sense about
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
It's just our hobby, and we are connected to it in the way we connect to a lot of hobbies. I mean, people don't follow sports teams obsessively because it matters for the fate of the universe how the Knicks do. They follow it because, like, they love the Knicks. It's a hobby. And, like, a lot of people are political hobbyists, and that's also a totally fine thing to be.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
But if what you want to do is willpower, right, then you need to be sort of thinking more instrumentally about, you know, what is happening locally and is the thing you can do donate money or is the thing you can do to be out there knocking doors or, you know, doing phone banking that connects you to people in another state because you live in a very blue or very red state, right?
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
There are these very different pathways you walk there. depending on what your actual purpose here is. So I don't want to tell anybody that being fully jacked in to the political vibe machine, which is what social media is, isn't fun or isn't the way they want to do it. As you say, sometimes we take up bad habits on vacation.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
When you're in Vegas, you gamble, and maybe you don't want to be gambling all the time, but right now you're in Vegas. Then there's a question of do you want accurate information about things, and then you want to be thoughtful about what you're consuming and from which sources.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And then there's a question of do you want to influence things, which is not about endlessly reading or consuming media, but about thinking about what resources you have to put out into the world, be they time, be they energy, be they whatever, money, and choosing where to target them. And those are all just very different roads to walk down.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I find it always not that gentle. I mean, watching people's anxiety on screen makes me very anxious, which says a lot about me. And all of it accurate, like whatever you took from that is a correct vision of who I am. Elections are stressful to me. I remember I was in Iowa in 2008, and a very senior political reporter was at the bar. And he was saying to me, like, don't you just love this?
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And I was like, no. Like, why would you love this? I mean, we need to have elections. It's an important way of running political decisions in a democracy. But I just want them to turn out well. I don't find the machinations of them fun. I don't enjoy covering them. Like, what I want to cover is the legislative process by which a universal child care bill – gets built and then passed into law.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Like I like the positive some nature of policymaking, particularly when it is happening in a more sensible political system than we often inhabit. Elections are like a thing that you have to survive. So terrible things don't happen. And so good things do happen. And you do so knowing, like having the visceral felt knowledge that terrible things might happen.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I mean, this is a hard question for me to answer because I cover elections professionally. I'm an electoral actor in a way. What do you mean when you say an electoral actor? I don't follow elections professionally. with the intention just of knowing about them. I am looking for stories. I am trying to understand what's going on in a way that gives me some predictive power over the election, right?
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Has a sense of where things are going and what I think is happening. And So how I cover them depends a lot on what I'm doing.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
My coverage of this election has been very different than my coverage of other elections because I have been, you know, very involved in questions like whether Joe Biden should step aside and have been interviewing vice presidential candidates on my show and interviewing people there that I think would be, you know, useful voices.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
We had Tim Walz on and then he became the vice presidential pick for Kamala Harris. Presumably there was a direct relationship between those two things. But so the way I will fall in an election has to do with the work I'm trying to do, right? So I was, you know, following a lot about Tim Walz and Gretchen Whitmer in advance of having them on my show.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Or I was doing a lot of reporting about the internal machinations and sentiment of the Democratic Party around the, you know, the pressure being applied in a kind of escalatory way to Joe Biden. And more recently, I've been trying to kind of keep in touch with the memetic sentiment around Kamala Harris, which to me has become an interesting and potent and independent force in the election.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I've been thinking a lot about the weird internet subcultures JD Vance comes out of, and so I've been sort of tracking that in this election. But I try and do not always succeed to keep my consumption fairly purposeful. Like, I'm not reading a lot about campaign strategy in Arizona and Nevada, just because I am not the one right now covering campaign strategy in Arizona and Nevada.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
So, this gets, I think, to my core answer to today's search engine question, which is, you have to start by asking yourself a different question, which is, what is your purpose in following the election? Right. I remember you did an episode with Califas Sane about how to find new music. And he's like, well, why do you want new music? And I was, like, so shocked by that question.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
But I have the same question for people following elections, because I actually think it's often for people very... I think sometimes what they are doing is not what they think they're doing. So, for instance, people who you mentioned in your intro, refreshing Nate Silver's election model. Now, what that election model is supposed to do is give you a sense of uncertainty, right?
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Nate Silver's model, when it tells you that Kamala Harris right now has a 52% shot of winning the election, which is what it said last I looked, What it's trying to tell you to do is leave that feeling incredibly uncertain. My experience is that the reason people refresh Nate's model is they want to feel certain.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Like, they look at that, they're like, oh, 52% were, you know, if you like Kamala Harris, you're winning, right? 60%, they're definitely winning, right? This is why so many people were mad at Nate when, you know, he said that Hillary Clinton had a, you know, 70-ish percent chance of winning in 2016 and Trump won, right? But Nate was right about that.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Trump won, and that was well within the range of possibility. So if what you want, right, if the actual emotional need you are trying to fulfill is, I want to feel better about this. I want to know who's going to win. People are often using the wrong tool. Like, I always describe the way people consume election models as, like, the way they use Q-tips.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
that it says on the package, please don't stick this in your ear. And I was like, no, I'm sticking this fucking thing in my ear immediately. And election models are supposed to be about uncertainty and people use them to create an emotional feeling of certainty. And so like, yeah, what do you actually want out of following the election? If you want to know who's going to win,
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
You should try to quiet that part of yourself and check back in in a couple months.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Because you don't know right now. Too much is going to happen. If you want to know what they're arguing, I can give you good sources for that.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Well, let's start on the arguments. And I will say this is a little bit of a tricky election at this juncture to do this well for two reasons. So my normal advice in this is that the sources people... diminish and dismiss like campaign books written by candidates and speeches given by candidates are much better than they are given credit for.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I have never, not to this day, and I've read a lot of them, I have never read a campaign book which I think there is actually no more shat upon species of textual literature than the candidate-authored campaign book. I've never to this day read a campaign book that I did not benefit enormously from reading. Interesting.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Because how... One bias we have in the press, and I think that people have reading the press, is the idea that secret knowledge, insider knowledge, the thing somebody said on the hot mic... is more valuable than the thing they said in the highly vetted speech they gave in public. And my belief is exactly the opposite. And I've watched this be true over and over and over again.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
It is what people say in public that matters. What they say in private matters a lot less.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
People, I don't want to say they lie more in private, although I do think that's actually true, but they shape themselves to their audience much more in private. Whereas a thing they say in public reflects coalitionally, in terms of their sense of the public, what they think they can actually do. Because what they're going to do is going to have to be coalitional.
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Is there a sane way to follow this election?
It's going to have to be in relationship with public opinion. Now, people change. You know, Barack Obama said he wasn't going to have an individual mandate when he was running for office in 2008, and then he ended up supporting one in office because that's what the sort of congressional Democratic coalition would support, and he got persuaded on it, and he ended up doing it.
The Ezra Klein Show
Yes, Biden’s Green Future Can Still Happen Under Trump
Hey, it is Ezra. So I'm taking a bit of time off this month, and we're going to have a few friends of the show on to host guest episodes. Today's host is Robinson Meyer. Rob is a contributing writer for New York Times Opinion and the founding executive editor of HeatMap News, which is the go-to source for reporting on the decarbonization rollout. I'll let him take it from here.
The Ezra Klein Show
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So as the year comes to a close, I wanted to dust off some episodes I think have some renewed relevance right now. If you've listened to the show for a while, you've probably heard me bring up some of the mid-century media theorists like Marshall McLuhan and Neil Postman, these people who were thinking about how TV and visual media would reshape politics and society.
The Ezra Klein Show
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I want to use this as a way to weave into the other side of the book a little bit, which is, this is a book about the interaction between media and democracy. And you have a line in the book that has started really lodging in my head and changing how I think, where you write that, and your co-author, right?
The Ezra Klein Show
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That it's, quote, it's better to think of democracy less as a government type and more as an open communicative culture. Tell me about that distinction you're making.
The Ezra Klein Show
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We tend to think of liberal democracies, but that's only one possibility. You can have illiberal democracies. Democracies can vote themselves into fascism. Democracy doesn't guarantee you any particular outcome. And so what drives a democracy, what decides what it becomes or what it stays, is that open communicative culture.
The Ezra Klein Show
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So tell me then if I have the structure of your argument right here. So democracy does not naturally lead to liberal democracy. It does not naturally lead to openness. It can become anything. And the way it becomes anything is through its communicative culture.
The Ezra Klein Show
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The way people in a democracy end up making the decisions that lead them to make and unmake institutions, to elect and throw out different politicians, to choose the person who wants to take them towards fascism or the one who wants to take them towards liberalism. That's coming out of, at least at the beginning, the communicative culture.
The Ezra Klein Show
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The way its members learn about the world, debate it, and ultimately persuade each other to change it or not change it. And communicative cultures are shaped by the technologies upon which they happen. Oral cultures are different than textual ones. Radio is different than TV. Twitter is different than TikTok or Facebook.
The Ezra Klein Show
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It's coming out of the way people talk about ideas, the way they learn about ideas, the way they learn about politicians. And because communicative cultures change radically over time with different technologies and different mediums and different medias, in order to understand a democracy at any given moment, you actually have to pay a lot of attention to its technologies of communication.
The Ezra Klein Show
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Do I sort of have you right so far?
The Ezra Klein Show
Best Of: How TV, Twitter and TikTok Remade Our Politics
It reminds me of one of my favorite Postman quotes. So he writes, introduce the alphabet to a culture and you change its cognitive habits, its social relations, its notions of community, history, and religion. Introduce the printing press with movable type and you do the same.
The Ezra Klein Show
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introduce speed of light transmission of images and you make a cultural revolution without a vote without polemics without guerrilla resistance here's ideology pure if not serene here is ideology without words and all the more powerful for their absence all that is required to make it stick is a population that devoutly believes in the inevitability of progress
The Ezra Klein Show
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And I've always thought that last line there is really important. That one thing that makes it hard to question technology, hard to question the way our communication changes, is that we do, particularly in America, have this baseline view that technological change is always good. That to question it makes you a Luddite. You just don't know how to use it well enough.
The Ezra Klein Show
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You're just not policing your feed well enough. If you don't want to watch so much TV, you just shouldn't. That it's all a consumer choice. If you're making bad choices, it's on you, an individual failing.
The Ezra Klein Show
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But the argument here, if technology is ideology, and if changes in technology change our ideology, as Postman puts it, without even words and votes and polemics, then maybe it's not really individual failing. And there should be some space maybe that we don't seem to have for collective reflection as to whether technologies are changing us in the way we want them to.
The Ezra Klein Show
Best Of: How TV, Twitter and TikTok Remade Our Politics
Political scientists spend a lot of time theorizing about democratic institutions and how elections work, but communicative institutions and the cultures and technologies by which we communicate, they get a lot less attention. And I guess I'm a member of the media, so I would think this, but I think it's a huge mistake.
The Ezra Klein Show
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I think it's true that TV made a televisual likability very important for politicians. What I think is interesting about social media is I'm not sure it's done the same thing. I mean, very famously, Donald Trump was the most unpopular major party candidate in the history of polling. And it strikes me that a lot of the candidates who are very good on social media are
The Ezra Klein Show
Best Of: How TV, Twitter and TikTok Remade Our Politics
I've become almost obsessed in recent years with Marshall McLuhan and Neil Postman, the great mid-20th century media ecologists. I honestly think you have to pick any two theorists to act as guides to our current moment. You could do a lot worse than them. And so I'm always looking for an excuse to talk about them and to talk with other people trying to apply them to our current political age.
The Ezra Klein Show
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They are very liked by some, but very hated by others. So if TV made it so you had to be, the question was, do I like them? What do you think the question of social media is for politicians or for voters?
The Ezra Klein Show
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I think one way in which this has all changed and changed in a way that the media still has not caught up to is that the question of sentiment has become secondary to the question of energy. And what I mean by that is that it's pretty good on television to be likable. Yeah. And it's pretty bad to be unlikable. And I think on social media, it's pretty good to be likable.
The Ezra Klein Show
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And it's almost even better to be unlikable. Because what you need is both sides contributing energy to your candidacy or to your debate. You need controversy. Not to say controversy didn't matter at other points in American history. I don't believe that. But particularly with algorithms that prize engagement, you really need people to join the other side of the argument.
The Ezra Klein Show
Best Of: How TV, Twitter and TikTok Remade Our Politics
Donald Trump, people hate Donald Trump, and that gives him a lot of attention. AOC, AOC drives the right crazy, and that gives her a lot of attention. And the politicians, in my view, who follow a strategy of just kind of being broadly acceptable, if Joe Biden had not been Barack Obama's vice president, he doesn't have a chance in the 2020 primary.
The Ezra Klein Show
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But I think that's really messed up the media because I think we believe that as mediators, our real power is in if we cover someone or something positively or negatively. And we really don't know what to do with politicians and issues that are able to utilize our negative coverage just as much, maybe even more than our positive coverage.
The Ezra Klein Show
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So I was thrilled to see this book hit my desk. Sean Illing is one of the authors. He is a PhD political theorist who switched careers and became a journalist, which has always given him, in my view, an interesting dual perspective. He is the interviews writer at Vox, and he sits in my old chair hosting the podcast Vox Conversations.
The Ezra Klein Show
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And this election felt like, I mean, it was beyond, I think, what they would have predicted. There's Trump, of course, a reality TV star who runs his campaigns and in some ways his administrations like a reality TV show. Many of his picks come from the TV and entertainment world.
The Ezra Klein Show
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One thing that has always worried me and continues to worry me as a member of the media is that our biggest blind spot in how American politics works, how the political system actually functions, is ourselves. And the reason for it is that the question we are comfortable asking about our work is
The Ezra Klein Show
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As always, my email, if you want to have an open, communicative culture with me and the team here, is EzraKleinShow at NYTimes.com. Sean Elling, welcome to the show.
The Ezra Klein Show
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is are we doing a good enough job covering American politics, reflecting American politics, being a mirror to American politics? And we are unbelievably uncomfortable with the obvious question, the inescapable question, how are we changing American politics? Even if you write the most neutral article in the world, the decision to write that article and not another article
The Ezra Klein Show
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is an inescapably charged decision. It is a choice that could have been made any other number of ways. And by making it, you have exerted force on the political system. You've made it a little bit different. That choice laddered up over every content decision choice, whether it's a decision to do what everybody else is doing because that's safer to do something radically different.
The Ezra Klein Show
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Like that is the sum total of our impact. And we don't really like trying to look at that sum total and then decide if that sum total is one we're comfortable with, if we should do it differently next year, if we followed good rules or bad rules. We sort of want to stay away from that question, but in a way that leaves us gaping whole in our model of how the political system actually works.
The Ezra Klein Show
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I proposed in a piece I wrote years ago now, practically with somebody like Trump, who has understood so well that outrage is a shortcut to coverage. That if you just do something really outrageous, you can trust that you will then be able to dominate the news cycle and push everybody else out of it. I've wondered about the idea of what if
The Ezra Klein Show
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The bar for Donald Trump to get covered was that he had to do something more outrageous for him, which is act like a normal politician and produce policy plans and say something worth covering, as opposed to acting like an insult comic dog. But it'd be very, very hard. to try to put that into play across the media. I mean, one, the media isn't a singular, we don't all coordinate.
The Ezra Klein Show
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So you and I, I think, have come to share a fascination with Marshall McLuhan and Neil Postman, who are these mid-century media critics. And man, I really think that if you want to understand the modern era, you need to read them. So people may have heard McLuhan's famous line, the medium is the message. What does it mean?
The Ezra Klein Show
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There isn't like some grand meeting of the editors where we decide how to cover things. And two, you know, we are dependent to some degree on audience and if everybody else, you know, if the other publications are covering what Donald Trump does and you're not, that, I mean, it might be plausible to figure out your way to a different audience, but it's playing the game on hard mode for sure.
The Ezra Klein Show
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And so I've never come up with what I think the answer to it should be. I'm curious if you have a better one.
The Ezra Klein Show
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But we really need one because I feel like every Republican figured this out from Trump. It's like the one thing they all learned from him is how to do this trick. Yeah. Like Ron DeSantis is going to run an entire campaign based on tricks like this. And there's no answer to it, really. And it isn't to say that you couldn't see this on the left, too, although it would probably look different. But
The Ezra Klein Show
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You know, I think the Republican Party, they learned a lot less from Trump's policy, right? That he moderated on things like Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security. You know, he was critical of foreign adventurism. Whatever you think of how he governed, you know, he ran rhetorically more moderately on some traditional Republican issues like taxes and entitlements and foreign policy.
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And some have picked that up, but many more of them have simply picked up that... You can get a lot of coverage by being a jerk. And you need a lot of coverage to win.
The Ezra Klein Show
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See, I think that underplays actually Trump's persuasive effect. I mean, maybe in both directions, but I think it's really easy to underplay the substance of what he represented at the very least. And he didn't code it in the way that appeals to policy wonks. I remember he only had seven or eight issues on his webpage, and they were pretty thin the way he described his policies back then.
The Ezra Klein Show
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But nevertheless, I think he persuaded a lot of people, in part through the fights he picked, in part through who he went after, that he was going to represent them, right? That they didn't like immigration and nor did he. That they didn't like how this country was changing and nor did he. That they didn't like Democrats and nor did he, but also they didn't like George W. Bush and nor did he.
The Ezra Klein Show
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That persuasion, I don't think, has to be high-minded. And one thing I think Trump understood is that part of the way you persuade people that you're on their side is you come to share their enemies and you expend capital, your own reputational capital. You're willing to get flayed in public
The Ezra Klein Show
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as almost a show of commitment that if you'll absorb this kind of incoming fire to hold to your position, well, then surely you'll do that when you're actually president. Surely you won't betray them then. And I would argue that in many ways, Trump betrayed the people that he promised to represent.
The Ezra Klein Show
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But I do think there's something here that actually Democrats and popularists and everybody else tend to miss, people who are too into policy communication, as I am. tend to miss, which is you have to convince people first and foremost that you're on their side before they're going to listen to almost anything else you tell them.
The Ezra Klein Show
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And people judge whether you're on their side not by the white papers you put out, But by more fundamental positioning and temperament and, you know, choosing of enemies and picking of fights. It's why I've always said that the relevant question isn't what's popular that you're willing to say, but what is unpopular that you're willing to say.
The Ezra Klein Show
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When Bernie Sanders would say that he would abolish private health insurance and he would take the hit for that. The people who believed in single payer believed that he really believed in it too. Like he wasn't going to just abandon this. Like being willing to say the unpopular thing is often how you convince people that you mean the popular thing.
The Ezra Klein Show
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I don't ask this next question in the spirit of plausibility. I ask it descriptively. What does, for a democracy, a healthy communicative culture look like?
The Ezra Klein Show
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How do you understand that tension where clearly today there is a wider range of expressible viewpoints in almost all areas of American life? I really don't believe that to be arguable. against any other time in which I've been alive or can look in American history.
The Ezra Klein Show
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Clearly, many more people and many more kinds of people can be heard thanks to social media, thanks to the low cost of setting up a webpage or a podcast. And at the same time, people feel in polling that they have to be more careful with what they say. There's constant fears about cancel culture and, you know, a hostile speech environment.
The Ezra Klein Show
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And this is obviously playing out in a lot of opinion pages and, you know, a lot of our politics about our communication. These two things feel to me like they are not separate, that they're somehow deeply intertwined. But I'm curious what you make of them, that simultaneity. of actual freedom and perceived and felt, I don't take away from it, felt unfreedom or fear.
The Ezra Klein Show
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One suspicion I have is that the frustrations about how our political communication culture feels right now do reflect one of those lags that you all write about in the book, which is that we are working with very new communication technologies. The migration of so much of our political communication onto social media
The Ezra Klein Show
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is something that didn't just happen in my lifetime, it happened in my adult lifetime. It's very, very, very fresh. And maybe we're just in the lag between when lots of us go there and when we learn how to tune out the worst voices, when people who are running institutions learn what to ignore, that the fact that people are yelling at you on Twitter doesn't mean you have to respond.
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Maybe this is all going to settle down and this will just be looked back on, you know, the sort of explosion of Trump and Bolsonaro's and Johnson's and, you know, politicians who were able to kind of unleash some of these darker energies. Maybe it'll just be looked on as another one of these periods where new technologies destabilized us and then, you we refound our footing.
The Ezra Klein Show
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How likely do you find that versus a more structural deranging of our politics?
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To your point about McLuhan's point that it makes a whole world into a village... I don't know that our nervous systems are built to hold the whole world as a village. I find it to be a very uncomfortable position to be in as a media professional, right?
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Somebody who has devoted my life to the news in different ways, or at least media commentary nowadays, that I'm not sure I think people should be consuming as much news as we are offering them. And not that most people are reading all of it because they're not or listening or seeing all of it. But I think it should be way less actually for the normal healthy person.
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That there's a part of me that thinks the weekly news magazine had it right. The daily paper. It's one reason I actually love the daily as a show. It's like pop in once a day and you get something and then you get some headlines and you go about your day. And I just don't know that we're built for this. And I don't know that we are going to become built for it because we don't change that much.
The Ezra Klein Show
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And this is a pretty new experiment. Now, maybe the only outcome of that... is that we become twitchier and more anxious and a little bit more depressed. And so this is simply one force among many, you know, pushing around the human psyche.
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I think sometimes when people hear you say, we may not be built for this, they think, you know, what you mean is we're all going to dissolve into dust if it doesn't stop. And I don't mean that. But it also doesn't mean that it's good.
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So I love that you brought in the Sesame Street thing there, as I said, because I think it's a really clear example. Postman got in a lot of trouble for this. He talks about it a lot. But his basic argument, as I've heard him make it, to build on what you said... is that people think Sesame Street teaches children to love learning, and what it teaches them is to love television. Yeah.
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I guess something that brings me to is towards the end of the book, you and your co-author write, there's really no answer here that doesn't have to do with media literacy, that doesn't have to do with how we educate the populace. I also think it's notable that Postman's great obsession was our education system, that that even more so than media is what he really took as his core project.
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And you're a little vague on what you think media literacy should look like. But you have a young kid, I have two. What do you think we should be teaching them about the communications world and culture they're growing up in and that they're going to be forming?
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Chris, you had people like Dana White and Hulk Hogan introducing Donald Trump on the final night of the Republican National Convention. So the episode I'm sharing today, which was taped in 2022, offers a framework for thinking about that TVification of politics. It's a conversation with my friend Sean Illing, the host of the Gray Area podcast and a co-author of the book, The Paradox of Democracy.
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I think that's basically right. It's also a good bridge to what's always our final question, which is to throw people back to an earlier medium and ask what are three books you would recommend to the audience?
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And he's obviously right about that. I mean, it maybe does both, but he's obviously right that Sesame Street is training wheels, television, and also how I've used it for my own child. And to bring this back to McLuhan, what I understand McLuhan is saying is that we really miss the way mediums change us. And I've come to think of this as focusing on their sameness rather than their differences.
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The Ezra Klein Show is produced by Annie Galvin and Roger Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker, Kate Sinclair, and Roland Hugh. Mixing by Sonia Herrero and Carol Saburo and Isaac Jones. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristen Lin and Christina Samieluski.
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He's got this other quote that I think about a lot where he says, our conventional response to all media is, namely that it is how they are used that counts, is the numb stance of the technological idiot. For the content of a medium is like the juicy piece of meat carried by the burglar to distract the watchdog of the mind.
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So do you want to talk a bit about that distinction between the content that we see on mediums and how they do change? It is different to, say, watch Fox News versus watching MSNBC, right? but that there's at the same time a commonality to what cable news is that McLuhan would say is the more important message of both of them?
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I do think he's right. And an easy way to put it is that he makes this argument that Various politicians who succeeded gloriously in the pre-television era can never have succeeded in the post-television era. Right. Abraham Lincoln is an example. He uses this melancholic, tall, not that attractive, slightly weird guy, prone to a lot of depression.
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His wife is quite ill in a bunch of different ways. He is not the kind of politician who succeeds in the post-TV universe. But a point you all make in the book is that it really isn't just about one medium versus another. You can get overly nostalgic about that. It's that mediums change us.
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Enjoy. From New York Times Opinion, this is The Ezra Klein Show. In their new book, The Paradox of Democracy, Zach Gershberg and Sean Illing make a simple but radical argument. They write, quote, it's better to think of democracy less as a government type and more as an open communicative culture. Their point there is that democracies can end up in many types of governments.
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And so in particular, the period of time when they are changing us is a dangerous time for democracies because they create a lot of disruption. Do you want to talk a bit about that recurrent history of... the introduction of a new medium destabilizing political systems?
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You're a journalist, you podcast, you write text articles, you do interviews, you write on Twitter. Let's be a little personal here. When you say mediums change us, how do you feel you're different in these different mediums?
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When I write, I tend to convince myself of what I think. There's an old Joe Didion line that writers love. I write to find out what I think. And I don't, believe it's true, at least not for me. I've noticed over time that writing tends for me to be about finding an answer, and I tend to become convinced by the answer I find.
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I've noticed that because as I've done more podcasting, I notice how much more when I'm podcasting, I don't seem to enter that mode. I sit much more in a space where many possible answers seem plausible to me, and I don't feel need to choose between them. Uncertainty and contradiction and paradox are are for whatever reason easier for me to hold in the podcast space.
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And Twitter, again, for better or worse, what I notice about it, what I notice happens to me the more I am on it and the better I get at it, is that it teaches me to think about the reaction, to think as if I am thinking for the collective.
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in a way that I have some more distance from who I'm writing for or speaking for, you know, when I'm writing a piece to go up at the New York Times or, you know, back in the day at Vox where you are, if I'm doing a podcast, you know, as we're doing this now, I am more distant from a concern about reaction, more sort of
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attentive to my own experience of creating the work than on Twitter or to some degree on Facebook or Instagram, where I'm much more jacked in to an expectation of what the reaction will be and both anticipating and fearing it, despite also knowing its deep ephemerality.