Elon Musk has been on a slash-and-burn tear through the federal government — gaining access to I.T. systems, dismantling U.S.A.I.D. and unleashing a firehose of attacks on his platform, X, accusing the bureaucracy of various conspiratorial crimes.As this all unfolds before our eyes, it’s hard to believe that Musk, not that long ago, was a conventional Obama-era liberal. How did a guy who cared about climate change and going to Mars, whose companies were buoyed by government largess, become Donald Trump’s most unapologetic soldier? What does he hope to do with all this power? What does Musk want?Kara Swisher has been reporting on Musk for decades and is one of the great tech reporters of our age. She hosts the podcasts “On With Kara Swisher” and “Pivot,” with Scott Galloway, and is the author of “Burn Book: A Tech Love Story.”This episode contains strong language.Mentioned:“What’s Wrong With Donald Trump?” by Ezra Klein“The Men and (No) Women Facebook of Facebook Management” by Kara SwisherBook Recommendations:North Woods by Daniel MasonOn Tyranny by Timothy SnyderMemorial Days by Geraldine BrooksThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected] can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith and Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our supervising editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
Chapter 1: What role does Elon Musk play in the federal government?
From New York Times Opinion, this is The Ezra Klein Show. So at the beginning, Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency seemed to have ended up with a fairly narrow mandate. You can look at the Trump executive order creating it, and it says, the purpose is modernizing federal technology and software to maximize governmental efficiency and productivity.
In the last couple weeks, it's become clear that Musk's role is a whole lot larger than that.
Elon Musk, right now, involved in almost every agency and corner of the United States government.
Offering all federal employees a buyout to resign. Musk and his team have accessed at least 11 agencies, and the count is growing every day.
His team has gained access to something extraordinarily sensitive. The Treasury Department's payment system.
Which handles trillions of dollars in payments. And the private information of every single American in this country.
Elon Musk seized control of USAID. People getting fired, people getting furloughed in droves. Posting on X, quote, we spent the weekend feeding USAID into the wood chipper. They are raiding the government.
What's the plan?
What's the plan? What's the plan?
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Chapter 2: How did Elon Musk transition from a liberal to a right-wing figure?
It's an A very specific kind of conspiracy theory he gets into. So you have him, you know, he responds to someone who tweets that Jews, quote, have been pushing the exact kind of dialectical hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them. And Musk replies, you have said the actual truth.
In July of 2024, just before he came out in support of Trump, he accused Democrats of, quote, trying to import as many illegal voters as possible. And in this way, I think what is going on with him is a little bit distinct from a lot of the people who superficially have similar politics because I think he's really bought into a lot of great replacement theory.
Yes.
A lot of this idea.
So have a lot of people in Silicon Valley. Let me say, he's not alone. No, he's not. He's got a cut, like this Curtis Yarvin stuff. They've all sort of been taken by these. It's almost religious if you think about it, right? And so one of the things that I think it goes back to, and I hate to say this, is sad little boy, wasn't loved enough as a child, is searching for meaning, right?
Is searching for love, searching for, and again, not an excuse because I think he's become a terrible person. And he should get therapy. But when there's easy answers like that, oh, this is why you're so unhappy. Oh, this is why the world is the way it is. These right-wing conspiracies do scratch an itch for these people. It's a religion. It's their answer to the world. It's also a politics.
So Musk is South African. Peter Thiel spent much of his childhood in South Africa. David Sachs is South African. And there's a very distinctive experience there. to being somebody born in or who lived in South Africa during apartheid, and also then saw apartheid dismantled, saw South Africa change. I've never quite known myself how much weight to put on this interpretation, but it seems relevant.
It seems interesting.
It's certainly relevant.
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