There’s something of a policy revolution afoot: As of March, more than a dozen states — including California, Florida and Ohio — have passed bills or adopted policies that aim to limit cellphone usage at school. More are expected to follow.Jonathan Haidt is the leader of this particular insurgency. “The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness,” his book exploring the decline of the “play-based childhood” and the rise of the “phone-based childhood,” has been on the New York Times best-seller list for a year. It feels, to me, like we’re finally figuring out a reasonable approach to smartphones and social media and kids … just in time for that approach to be deranged by the question of A.I. and kids, which no one is really prepared for.So I wanted to have Haidt on the show to talk through both of those topics, and the questions we often ignore beneath them: What is childhood for? What are parents for? What do human beings need in order to flourish? You know, the small stuff.Haidt is a professor at New York University Stern School of Business and the author of “The Righteous Mind” and “The Coddling of the American Mind” (with Greg Lukianoff). His newsletter is called After Babel.This episode contains strong language.Mentioned:“She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.” by The DailyThe Age of Addiction by David T. Courtwright“Have Smartphones Destroyed a Generation?” By Jean TwengeStolen Focus by Johann HariBook Recommendations:The Stoic Challenge by William B. IrvineDeep Work by Cal NewportHow to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale CarnegieThoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our executive editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
What sparked the debate over Jonathan Haidt's book?
From New York Times Opinion, this is The Ezra Klein Show. In March of last year, the social psychologist Jonathan Haidt published this book called The Anxious Generation, which caused, let's call it, a stir.
The subtitle of this book says it all. How the great rewiring of childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness.
I don't think anybody can dispute that. What he says is controversial.
Oh my God, enough with the panic about kids using smartphones. Facing enormous pushback from other researchers. You cannot disentangle cause from effect.
Jonathan Haidt is telling a scary story that many parents are primed to believe. I always found the conversation over this book a little annoying because it got to me. at one of the difficulties we're having parenting, one of the difficulties we're having in society, which is this tendency to instrumentalize everything into social science.
Unless I can show you on a chart the way something is bad, we have almost no language for saying it's bad. It is to me a collapse in our sense of what a good life is, what it means to flourish as a human being. And so I stayed a bit out of that debate because on the one hand, I couldn't settle it. And on the other hand, I didn't think I should come in and say it wasn't important.
We're a year later, though, and two things have happened. One is Heitz's book has never left the bestseller list. That is rare. It has struck a chord. The other is that policy is moving in Heitz's direction.
Well, the governor of Utah has signed a sweeping bill to limit children's access to social media.
Florida Governor Ron DeSantis has signed one of the most restrictive social media laws in the country.
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