Elena
Appearances
Consider This from NPR
Fentanyl deaths are plunging, but it's just the first step
Yeah, I can tell, you know, the numbers drop. A lot more people also started smoking instead of shooting. I think that made a difference.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
literally part of my orientation process was having to do this like goal setting worksheet that they, they then hung everyone's personal goal setting worksheet, like up in the back office. So everyone could see it.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
And it wasn't just goals related to the op, like to the venue, but also like your personal goals, what you want to accomplish, what you want to heal from like things that, you know, in, especially in hindsight, you're like, how did any of these people who I of course now know we're literally just,
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
people like me who had maybe worked there an extra six months longer and had done the extra weekend of manager training, like they were not therapists and yet they were putting all of that information out there. And not only that, but when we would do like evaluations or talking about, you know, our performance reviews or whatever, it was never just about our performance in the store.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
They would bring those goal sheets out. And they would like confront you with them. Like, well, what have you done to accomplish this goal? What have you been doing to make more friends in your personal life? How have you been. Striving to move through the stages of grief while like things that you're just like, this is not about fucking folding pants. This is none of your goddamn business.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
And they would do it in places like Starbucks. Like I have a really traumatic memory of my manager and the assistant manager who was training to be a manager. sitting me down at a Starbucks and they started by giving me this little like gift card. Like you've been such a great team member. We're so proud of you. And then pulling out my goal sheet and like hammering me about things.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
Like I was in the process of planning my wedding. They were asking me questions about that. And I remember just like sitting there basically dissociating, trying to hold back tears in this Starbucks, clutching this gift card in my hands going like, I don't even know.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
how I got here and I honestly don't even remember how we got back to the store like I feel like I just kind of shut down and they kept throwing questions at me until it was apparent that I was like monosyllabic at best and then they just brought me back to the store and had me open boxes in the back whole like wholly inappropriate not necessary and I'm sorry the job was opening boxes folding pants and like
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
writing people's names on change room boards. It was not changing the world.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
Yeah. I mean, it was, I'm trying to think like, it's also been almost 20 years. So like, I mean, everything was always about positivity. Like they gave, they used the word feedback all the time. They were constantly looking for customer feedback, client feedback, but they always wanted it spun very positively.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
So like, for example, if a client or customer was like, Hey, I want to give you feedback on these pants. They stain really easy. If you wrote that on the board, you would get in trouble because it wasn't a positive spin.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
They would want you to write it like these pants could be improved with stain resistance, as opposed to like, these pants are very easily stained with sweat and body oils, which like is a valid concern. Yeah. In athletic wear. They used the term defensiveness to try and kind of stop any negative feedback about the company or their policies.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
So anytime, like for example, when I took over merchandising, we were on Bloor Street and our window was directly beside Hermes. And I was given a budget usually of between $100 and $150 to like put together, like buy things to put together our window. And like, I thought I got pretty creative and not to say that I'm a fucking genius. I'm sure some of my stuff could have improved.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
But I remember having one of the like head merchandisers from head office come to give me feedback. And some of it was useful and whatever, but then they got into like, well, let's take a comparative look at us and Hermes. Like, how could we look more expensive? And I was like, well, an easy way would be for us to increase our budget.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
Like I know from speaking to the merchandiser there that they spend 10 grand on a budget and we spend at best 150. And immediately it was like, well, you don't need to be defensive. So yeah, defensiveness was very much just a general term for any time you disagreed with anyone.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
No, I was definitely, it was around when they were talking about moving me up into being the assistant merchandiser. It was around then that they started kind of suggesting to me that I should do Landmark. And I chatted with a few of the people who had done it. And I'll be honest, I didn't click with a lot of the people I worked with. There was a couple that I really did.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
And so of course I was much more interested in their takes on it. Many of the staff who were, as we like to say, drank the Kool-Aid, who were like all in on everything, were always talking about how transformational Landmark was and how wonderful it was.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
But when I spoke to the people that I aligned with more just as a human, their experiences with Landmark had been a lot more uncomfortable and invasive. And so I I did some personal research into it. And at that point I was only like two years into mourning my mom. So I was already going through a lot of therapy.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
I had already done a significant amount of work and was in the process with a team that knew what I was going through of doing work. And so when they first kind of said, Hey, we'd like to book you for this. It's this huge gift. You're you've been doing so well. We want to gift you with this. I said, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
But based on my research, I don't think it's a good fit for me at this time. So I basically gave them my spiel about like, I'm doing the work I need to right now. And I don't really feel comfortable, especially with what I've heard and read at this time, I will keep an open mind in the future.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
And at the time, they were sort of okay with it, but kind of in a way like, okay, well, we'll circle back in a little while.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
I don't know if he went to all the stores, but I think he went to a bunch of the like flagship stores. I'm sure just as a goodwill thing.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
So he came through our store and like did the super bluff person, the very like presidential kissing babies thing where he like went through the store and like
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
introduced himself personally to each one of the people that was working there and asked you know how how do you like this or how do you like that you know very blah blah blah felt very much like the president walking down the line kissing the babies what were the responsibilities like in the store was it sort of typical retail or did it go beyond i mean for the most part it was like the responsibilities in the store were pretty typical retail but they also like
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Hey weirdos, Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I would go to sleep only to wake up with it being open and seeing the creepy dolls staring into my mother freaking soul. Eek. My sister, who doesn't believe in ghosts, told me to compliment the dolls and ask them to chill, which I did. I think she believes in ghosts then. She does because she's like, you better make friends with them. She said be nice to them so they don't eat your soul.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
She said, which I did. I told them they were very pretty, but were freaking me out. Not sure if it helped, though, or if you're supposed to talk to spooky dolls in general. Oops. After this, it went on for days to the point that I needed my boyfriend, a complete skeptic, to come stay with me out of fear. He didn't believe any of it. The closet had those accordion type doors that scrunch open.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
i like that whatever one however you spell it footrest thingy i sure don't know how to spell it and still can't figure it out elissa thought i was trying to spell abdomen abdomen that's what i thought when i first read this tale i think it's o-t-t-o-m-a-n that's what i thought because i think it's ottoman or is that like ottoman empire who's that that's like that who the fuck is who's empire
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
a time period. Oh, who knew? Which one? The Ottoman Empire. When was that? I can't tell you. I will claim ignorance on that. I don't know what time period it was. There's also a Vampire Weekend song that played at our wedding called Ottoman. I like that song. It was our cake cutting song. It was. Mine was... Keep going.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I am feeling like I am in orbit right now. Technically, I think aren't we all in orbit? We are sober as a judge, as always, and I am in orbit. Yeah. Yeah. Orbit. Or beat. I am in space. Oh, the auto... Ottoman Empire. Oh, I thought you said... No, no, I did think you said empire. Did you just hear my stomach? Yeah, I did, actually. It was insane.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
The AT&T Guarantee means connectivity you can depend on, deals you want, and service you deserve, or they'll make it right. Visit att.com slash guarantee to learn more. AT&T connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com slash guarantee for details. Hey, weirdos. I'm Alina. I'm Ash. And this is Marvin. It's Marvin.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Oh, the Ottoman Empire was an absolute and constitutional monarchy that ruled over a large area of... Oh, I remember this. It's in like the very low numbers.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Well, the 14th century to the early 20th century, though. I don't know a lot about it. I will not claim to. It's also known as the Turkish Empire. I've heard of that.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
All right. So he put an ottoman, not the empire, but the footrest thingy in front of the closet. So I would feel safe and would know that the closet wouldn't be able to open. Well, there you go. Joke's on him because the next morning, the other side of the closet was open. He asked if I had done it, to which I said, no. Uh-uh. No, sir.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
No, sir. I told you this place was spooky. It's spooky. My goodness. Honestly, I'm glad he got spooked out because now he believes me. After that, I hadn't stayed in the house until a month ago. This time I was offered to stay in a different bedroom, to which I gladly accepted.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
yes please there were no creepy dolls but a few odd things there was an exterior house light right outside the window that would turn on and off throughout the night i figured it was a sensor issue or at least that's what i tried to convince myself the bathroom would randomly make weird noises like weird gurgle noises that sounded like they were coming from the ceiling that's the ghost of me
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Just gurgling up in the ceiling. Yes. That was me a second ago. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
My stomach was like. We got to like. I don't even know if we'll need to, but we need to see if we can like amplify that. Yeah, because I'm hungry. Me too. Maybe just another house issue. The flipping wall made weird banging noises off and on too. But I had to pretend it was all just a coincidence anyways, because duh, it's better to avoid problems. It really is.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
But then throughout the night and only at nighttime, I would get an aggressive smell of peach in my nose. That's nice. That is really nice. At first, when I was reading it, I thought you were going to say pee. Yeah, pee wouldn't be great. Like urine. Urine. Urine, but peaches? Peaches, I'll take. Not like an aroma in the room, but like all the way up my nose. How rude. That is a little bit rude.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
It was as if somebody actually shoved an entire ripe peach up my nostril. No thanks, ghosty. Maybe the dogs were farting and whoever in the afterlife felt bad and they were like, you shouldn't smell bad because you're so sweet and you take care of these dogs. They said, here's some peaches. Take some peaches. Millions of peaches. Peaches for free. Up in your nose.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
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Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
The average YNAB user reports saving close to $600 in their first month and $6,000 in their first year. Side effects may include less financial stress, getting better sleep, and eliminating arguments about money. Warning, using YNAB may be habit-forming. Before starting, ask your wallet if adding more joy to every day and every dollar is right for you.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Listeners of Morbid can claim an exclusive three-month trial subscription for free with no credit card required at www.ynab.com slash morbid. That's www.ynab.com slash morbid. Life is short. Spend it well with YNAB. Life doesn't happen biweekly, so why should payday? The money you earn can be in your hands today with Earnin'.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Earnin' is an app that gives you access to your pay as you work, up to $100 per day or up to $750 per pay period. Just download the Earnin' app and verify your paycheck, then access up to $100 a day as you work and leave an optional tip. Any money you access plus tips are automatically repaid from your next paycheck. I feel like this is so perfect because you know...
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
When you're low on cash, that's when these unexpected things pop up. Maybe an unexpected trip to the vet, God forbid. Maybe just like upcoming rent and you just forgot about it. In those moments when money isn't moving as fast as your dreams are, Earnin' provides the financial momentum you need to keep moving forward.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Download Earnin' today, spelled E-A-R-N-I-N, in the Google Play or Apple App Store. When you download the Earnin' app, type in Morbid under Podcast when you sign up. It'll really help the show. Morbid under Podcast. Subject to your available earnings, location, daily max, and pay period max. See earnin.com slash TOS for details. Earnin is a financial technology company, not a bank.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Bank products are issued by Evolve Bank and Trust member FDIC. I searched for outlets with air fresheners and didn't find anything. It kept occurring the whole stay, only at random creepy times at night. At this point, I decided there was only one logical option. I had to accept that the ghost really wanted me to know that they smelled good, because what else am I going to do?
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I'm stuck here for two weeks. I told the ghostie that I was just there to take care of the pups and asked it to chillax a little so that we could be, you know, buddies. Fair. Not sure that helped either, since those occurrences kept happening over the two weeks. It's safe to say that I was a little bit sleep-deprived, but Peach Ghostie never harmed me, so we're on good terms now.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Yeah, I would say so. Anyways, I've avoided the creepy dolls at all costs, since, like I said, I befriended my peachy ghost friend. Maybe. I'm spending another week at the house now, so maybe I'll have more ghostly encounters. Keeps it weird, but not so weird that ghosts shove very fragrant peaches up your nose.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
attaching pictures of the cute puppies just for fun below as well as scary dolls also going to add my personal fur babies because i love them so so so much i could just melt thanks for everything you guys really are the best so are you i love you oh those are scary the dolls also that scary ship captain doll is a little little much oh you're pupper too wait i need to look at this look at them
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
We're in orbit. She's not okay. I'm not okay. I'm going to read Listener Tale. Was my dog possessed? Yes. Maybe the theme is dogs. The answer is yes. The theme is fur babies. I literally picked this Listener Tale because you are so gorge and so is your partner and so are your dogs. I showed it to you already. Oh, that picture? Yeah. I was like, wow. And I was like, pick that.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I don't know why we went there, but it felt right. We tried a transatlantic thing, I think, almost. It's like when we did the bob-haired bandit and I tried so hard to be transatlanticism and I just wasn't. Transatlanticism. You know, Death Cab for Cutie. We did a whole thing. Yeah. You know what? There's a, before TikTok goes away, we might as well start with just nonsense. Insert a wah, wah, wah.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
And then I said I want to look like you in my next life. It's true. She did. All right. So this Listener Tale, I think I can say your name. So it's hot mess pooches and it says, hey, ladies, I fucking love y'all. I fucking love you. This is long as fuck. Some of it's ADHD ramble, but oh, well, cool. We just did that for about 42 minutes.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Tale number one. And you're still here. I did the double space large font put a pho because I'm old and did not wear my glasses while typing this because that would have been the smart thing to do.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I've attached a story about the time I think my dog was possessed with a side story about how my uncle was not the Circleville letter writer and how I almost got married in the Rampert Street murder house. My life is fucking weird. Feel free to use my first name. My last name may sound familiar. And the first name is Natalie. Oh, there it is. I was like, I literally went like this.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I was like, do it. Natalie. I like, what's the, oh, is it Sue Ann? Jo Ann.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I can't do it because I'll start coughing forever. I know it hurts a little bit. All right. My name is Natalie. Feel free to use my name and any other names in my story. Will do Natalie.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Oh, man. I don't remember exactly when I started listening to you because what the fuck is time anymore? But I will say. Agreed. You two have kept me company as I transported rescue dogs all over the country for the last few years. Oh, my goodness. Your podcast has helped me keep my eyes peeled as I travel thousands of miles, often only accompanied by dogs.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
You two have taught me a ton of lessons that have probably saved my ass. Fresh air is for dead people. Hell yeah. And have helped validate my true disdain for humans. Love that. That's what we're here for. That is what we're here for. I've been meaning to. People are good at people and you should know that. Yeah. Sometimes they people good. Most of the time they people bad.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
They people good so they people bad. And that's why we disdain them. Exactly. I like using disdain as a verb. I like it. All right. I've been meaning to write for a while but as the director of a non-profit dog rescue. Bitch, can you get any cooler? I hope you mention what it is because I'll say it. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Anytime I would sit down and start typing, I would give into exhaustion and find myself falling asleep at my keyboard. I understand that. A recent car accident, I'm sorry, finally forced me to slow down and gave me the time to write. To tell you how long I've been trying to get a listener tilt into you, the case I was going to write to you about originally was actually covered in 2022, episode 328.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Whoa. The Circleville Letter Writer. That was one of my favorite episodes to do. That's a wild one. That's a really interesting case. This case is what sparked my interest in true crime. Why, you may ask? Why? All right. I looked it up and I think it's Fresh Hour. So Paul Fresh Hour was my uncle. Some of my very first memories include visiting him in prison when I was just a young man. Whoa.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
When the Unsolved Mysteries episode about the case came out, my dad sat me down and we watched together. My family didn't talk about the case very often, but none of us believed that my uncle Paul was capable of attempted murder. You remember that? Yeah. He ended up getting put away in prison for like 10 years. Yes.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
damn and that's your uncle and i wasn't so sure about that either yeah he was actually the person this man would have given you the shirt off his back and was the first to ask how many dog how my dogs were at my family gatherings when he was found unresponsive in his car after the heart attack that eventually took his life his trusty toy poodle tommy was by his side Oh, Tommy.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
What? That was just like felt like an intrusive thought. You were like, I want a poodle. Kind of. My dad. Must have poodle.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Before TikTok goes away, there's this comedian on there. Her name is Carissa. And I want to find her real, her full name, Carissa. Her whole act is she's like this, something darling is her name. I love that. And she does this like, she does crowd work in a transatlantic accent in full like gown. Oh, I'm into that. And she's just like, What's your name, darling? Oh, that was really good.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Oh, my God. My dad was one of seven children, and my Uncle Paul was my favorite after my dad. I truly believe Karen Sue, his ex-wife, set him up. Paul served 10 years in prison to protect his son, who was roped into the setup by his mom. Yes, Paul was absolutely the kind of person who would give up his own freedom for those he loved.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Unfortunately, Karen Sue passed away last month and has taken her secret to the grave. Oh, man. But that's not what this listener tale is about, so I'm going to give you a short backstory without rambling, but I'm not going to make any promises because ADHD. I feel that. I grew up going to my dad's house in Columbus, Ohio, and my mom's house just outside of Houston, Texas.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
For those of you who do not know, New Orleans is a mere five hours from Houston if your mom drives like a bat out of hell. That's crazy. I know. I didn't realize that. Geography. Geography. I was going to say golgraphy. Golgraphy. Back in 2002. Back in 2002, I was a pretty angsty teen. Spoiler alert. I am now a full-fledged misanthropic elder golf. Oh, everything you're saying, I'm just like, yep.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Yeah. As soon as I read this, I said, you speak to like me in a certain way, but you really speak to Elena. When you just said 2002, you were just an angsty teen. I'm like, yep. Yeah. Same girl. Five. Yeah, it sounds like a thunderstorm. Yeah, you're 15. You can hear it. Cool. Guys, I'm hungry. She hungry. I'm hungry for your tails.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
All right, so misanthropic elder goth and learned that my favorite musician lived close enough to talk my alcoholic mother into weekend trips to the Crescent City. Hmm. She would drink and gamble while I would roam the streets with friends, hoping to run into the dark lord of industrial music himself. Do you know who that is? The Trent Reznor? Is that, he's Nin, right? Yeah, he's Nin.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I just, I don't know, I'm just, the dark lord of industrial music just makes me think of Trent Reznor. Yeah, I could see that. But am I right? I don't think it ends up saying. Oh. The city immediately owned a piece of my soul. If you have never been to Nolans, it's not like any other city you will ever visit.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I could go on and on about the food, the jazz, the drinks, the art, the history, the best bar down the alleyway. You'll miss if you blink the tarot card readers in Jackson Square or the speakeasy that the vampire sent you to above the unassuming Bourbon Street Bar. That sounds fucking awesome. Yeah, it does.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
It's almost like an alternate universe, and if you are sensitive, the energy will keep you coming back. It's like a drug if you're a weirdo who has never felt like you have had a home anywhere else. Aw, I love that. Beautifully said, but made me sad. That really is really... But you know what? You got knowledge. I got knowledge.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
As an adult, I make any excuse to visit and will often wrap up my dog transport trips with a stop in my favorite city to decompress. That is. One of the strangest sights I have ever seen was the French Quarter... Yes. Yeah. One of the strangest sights I've ever seen was the French Quarter late spring 2020. My boyfriend at the time had never been to New Orleans.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
And so I thought we would stop on our way back to Texas from the Midwest. It was a literal ghost town. Plenty of souls, but very few were living. Ooh. I like that. You're like very poetic. You are very poetic. Oh. Okay. And he will probably shit his pants if he hears y'all tell this story. Hell yeah, Jeff. Mostly because that's his name. That's a great reason to call him that. It is.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
It's the perfect reason. We found an amazing deal on a dog-friendly historic hotel right in the French Quarter, so we decided to treat ourselves after another 2,000-mile trip moving dogs to homes and partner rescues Midwest. That's amazing. I know. I always travel with a few of my own personal dogs because I have separation anxiety, but
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
So a long walk around the French Quarter was the first thing we did. This is where I mentioned that I'm also a professional dog trainer and behavior specialist. My dogs have traveled with me all over the country and are used to staying in hotels. After a long walk around the French Quarter, we checked out. We checked into our hotel, unloaded our bags and set up dog crates in our room.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
And she does the whole act like that. That was good. And she's fucking hilarious. So Carissa, go find her. Go find her and find out where she goes. I'm going to find her on there while we continue so I can shout her out. I'm not fully convinced that TikTok's going anywhere. I don't think anybody really is. And if it is, like I'll be like a little bit sad for probably like two days.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
We made plans to have dinner and join a haunted history walking tour. I want to do that so bad. That sounds I want to do that right now. Let's book a trip. Let's go. Jeff and I, Jeff, his real name, and I got the dog settled and walked out the hotel room to head to dinner. I always wait outside the hotel room door to listen for my dogs to settle. But this evening, that didn't happen. Atticus.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I love that. Atticus. I love that. Wait until you hear the next name. My most behaved deaf boy was scratching at the door and his deaf adopted sister, Dita Von Flees. Atticus and Dita Von Flees. Dita Von Flees is the best dog name in the history of dog names. Hands down. Like nobody else name your dog again. That beats Kevin. Way better than Kevin. That beats Kevin. Valentina. Kevin. The best.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Dita Von Flees. But Dita Von Flees was crying in her crate. Oh, no. We figured they just hadn't had enough time out after a long trip and decided to take them to dinner and on the walking tour with us. I'm attaching a photo of myself with the three dogs who were with us on the trip. Lilith, Dita, and Atticus. And Lilith. My tattoo's name is Lois. Shut up.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Now, an evening of perusing the French Quarter in August may seem like a lot for most dogs, but these are young Dalmatians, and they're fucking adorable. Oh my god, they're stupid cute. They were literally bred for running miles upon miles. We had dinner outside next to Jackson Square, which is now full of artists, street performers, and psychics, but was once where the city held their executions.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I scanned the square for my favorite tarot card reader, but I didn't see her. I'd been drawn to her several years prior because of the wolves on her altar cloths.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
My readings would often end with a discussion about our dogs, and something she had said has stuck with me. Dogs with, I think it's heterochromia, I think? It's the eye thing. Two different colored eyes can see the living and the dead. Oh, I fucking love that. It is. For some reason, it gives me like Game of Thrones, White Walkers vibes.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Like, oh, I fucking love that idea. Yeah. Specifically, they can see the living with their dark eye and the dead with their light eye, which I think is so fucking cool. I'm obsessed with that idea. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Well, on this trip, we didn't have any dogs with heterochromia, but Dita's eyes are both ice blue. And I wanted to see what she would say about that.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Which, that's probably, like, rare for a Dalmatian. Yeah, I would think so. Usually they have dark eyes, right?
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Yeah. We finished our dinner and spent the rest of our evenings on a haunted history tour through the French Quarter. There were locations where the dogs seemed to be bothered by something, and they definitely tried pulling us across the street upon approaching the LaLaurie Mansion. But otherwise, it was a normal long walk.
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We went back to the hotel and settled for the night as we were all finally exhausted. Then, at 3am, Jeff woke me up, telling me he thinks Dita's having a seizure. I come, launch myself out of bed, and see her crate rocking back and forth. He throws open the door and tries to grab her. Holy shit. Aww. Aww. She launched herself across the room one more time and attempted to climb up the curtains.
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And then I'll be like, wow, look at all this stuff I completed in my free time. Yeah.
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She was in such a frenzy, I feared that she would hit the glass with such force that she would yeet herself out the window and down three stories to, I think, DeCowder Street? Holy shit. After what seemed like a half hour, Dita finally exhausted herself and retreated back into her crate. Jeff and I thought for sure we would be asked to leave the hotel, but no knock came or call.
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The next morning when we checked out, no one mentioned a thing. Dita had never had an episode like this before, and four years later she has not had another one like it, nor have I seen anything like it with any other dog. Was my dog possessed? Could she see the dead? Or is she just a nutty Dalmatian? I can go with possessed. I think possessed.
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It eats up a lot of my time. It's true. So I don't think it's that bad of a thing in that scenario. But I do feel bad for like creators who have made like a living on there. Well, that's the thing. It's been around for how many years? And it's like when you've made a living off of this, it's like your actual job. Yeah. Like our girl, Isabel. Oh, our girl, Isabel.
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Especially the fact that they were kind of like acting strange while you were on the walking tour and like out of character. I tried doing research on the hotel we stayed at, but I didn't find anything particularly damning. The whole French Quarter is haunted if you ask me. Yeah.
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And if you don't believe in that sort of thing, there are plenty of vampires, witches, and voodoo practitioners who may tickle your fancy there instead. That's so fucking cool. Side note, many years ago I was engaged, like any good goth, I planned to get married in New Orleans. Yeah.
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I found a little museum on Rampart Street where we could have a small ceremony and celebration. My ex-fiance's mom was outraged when she found out that I had put the deposit down on the Rampart Street murder house, the Zach and Addie story. Oh my goodness. Yeah.
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I didn't realize I would have been getting dressed for my wedding in the same space where Zach had dismembered his girlfriend Addie before jumping to his death. I didn't make the connection until after enduring her outrage. Two weeks prior to the wedding on Friday, October 13th, my father had a massive stroke, causing us to call off the wedding.
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Long story short, had I gone through my wedding, I don't think I would be here today. I have absolute chills. I hadn't read that part earlier. I just read the dog part. Wow. Whoa. Wow. Holy shit. Some kind of an intervention happened.
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I don't know what happened there, but damn. That's crazy. I'm glad that you're here. Yeah. And I'm sorry that you had to. And I'm glad that that didn't happen. And I'm sorry that you had to endure what you did. Yeah. Holy shit. I'm adding a better pic of Dita Von Fleas and some more of my dogs as well as a pic of the love of my life, Salem. That's who that is in the picture. Stop.
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And you guys together are absolutely gorgeous. Literally a work of art. I picked the tail because I said I literally want to look like this woman in my next life. She literally did. Like, what? Like, she did. Hand to whoever. Me on her. I thought you were talking about like a judge or something.
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I don't understand it because, you know, you're all excited and stuff. I thought you guys would appreciate that my future husband named himself after a sassy black cat, not the town or the witch trial.
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Obsessed. I'm obsessed. Anywho, keep it weird. We will and we know that you will. That's fucking awesome. Even, like, on an off day, she looks like this. You're absurdly beautiful and just, like, radiate nice, good energy. You're a work of art. And you and Salem are just, like, the cutest couple I've ever seen in my life. Oh, my God. You guys are just stupid gorgeous.
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Thank you so much for having me. All in one place and all on your terms. You can connect major social and multimedia accounts to your website in a few clicks as icons, direct links, or embedded feeds, your choice. You build visitor trust while updating content only where you need it, extending your brand's footprint.
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Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Wait, I gotta show you the picture of Dita. Oh, Deedah. Look at her eyes.
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She does have beautiful ice blue eyes. They're like almost white.
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They're gorgeous. Crazy. All right. Let's see. Should I do creepy doll listener tale?
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So this one's called creepy doll listener's tale. This one's so good. Hi, weirdos. My name is Angelica. Yes, like the Rugrats, you can use my name. If you decide to pick this tale to read on the podcast, I will simply pass away. R.I.P. Wow. That's, like, a normal thing to say to that, but, like, I feel like we did the same inflection, too. Yeah, we did. Get out of my head. Damn.
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Annalee. Tyler. Michaela. What am I going to do when I can't go to Patto? I'm going to be so sad when I can't go to Patto. It's Carissa Hendricks, by the way.
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I've been a fan for about a year, and the first episodes I listened to were your Albert Fish ones. What a way to start. Babe, you stuck around after that?
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Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Damn. For real. Damn. I almost left after that. I tried, and they said, you're contracted. They said no. We both said, okay, that was it. I listened to it at the gym and was cackling at all your jokes so hard that my husband stopped his workout and wanted to know what I was listening to. When I told him this podcast about Albert Fish, he looked horrified. He said, qual?
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When I reassured him it was funny, not because of what he did, but because of your guy's absolute roast of this man. We do be good at that. He understood and became interested in the podcast. Side note, I'm not a huge true crime junkie since I already know how horrendous people can be and it makes me sad. Same. Shout out to my fellow social workers.
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Oh, yeah, you definitely know how horrible people can be. But I did take a serial killers course in Creek Community College and learned a lot about them. It was interesting to say the least. However, I'm more impressed with y'all's interpretations and retellings. I've learned so much that I think I may have to scrub my brain clean and start fresh, but like in a good way because I love you.
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Yeah, I'll shut the fuck up now, but please know I absolutely adore you both and thank you for always making me laugh and for keeping it weird. This year has been a rough one and I'm only 25. And what year was this? 25 was one of my worst years. Oh, it's 2024. So yeah, it was a shitty year. Yeah. And I'm only 25. Seriously, if things keep on this trajectory, I'm not sure I'll make it very far.
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You will. Yeah, this is going to be a better year. Getting your license is like super exciting and then getting your first car and all that. What's not like the most exciting part of all of that is insurance. I remember being like, where do I even start? Why are there 452 insurance companies? Which one actually cares about me? I'm so stressed.
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carissa hendrix let me see go find her and she's so pretty she just like roasts people like in the but but in like the most classy way that's my dream job i love her we kind of do that actually she's really funny so just go find her anywhere i don't know find that girl find that girl carissa hendrix um but yeah i don't know we just went with a 20s theme today yeah just kind of i don't even know whose idea this was maybe it was mike mikey was this your idea
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Well, I wish that when I was 16 years old, Insurify was an insurance comparison site that I had known about. But now it is. Insurify is an insurance comparison site. And it has dozens of top insurers compete for your business, which drives the prices down. Insurify lets you compare real-time quotes from dozens of top insurers, including the names that you know and that you trust.
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Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
The entire Insurify process is handled completely online. Amazing. That means no annoying phone calls, no ridiculous fees, no spam ever. Back in my day, I had to call so many people. But get this. With Insurify, you can get insurance coverage in as little as 10 minutes. Do you understand how groundbreaking that is?
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Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Get to Insurify.com to compare car insurance quotes in real time and start saving today. That's I-N-S-U-R-I-F-Y dot com. Insurify dot com. Average potential savings based on initial quotes received by 183,234 customers seeking insurance through Insurify. Actual savings may vary depending on state of residence, individual circumstances, coverage selections, and insurance provider.
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Do things typically get better or worse? But for reals, listening to you guys helps distract me from the fuckery that is life. I am currently unemployed. Shout out to having a mentee bee. And writing this story has filled up a lot of my time. And for that, I am grateful for the opportunity, even if it is not selected. Oh, girl.
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And Elena broke. I literally broke while saying it. She said selected. Sorry for any typos. Why did I laugh like that?
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Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Marley and Marley. That's a banger. I didn't like the Muppets for a long time. Come at me, bro. Confession time.
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i know my mother-in-law was really pissed about it but we watched the uh what's up at christmas carol i was so against watching it for a long time but it's drew's favorite movie so i was like i have to it's slaps michael caine had no business going as hard as he goes in that he didn't he is he's top notch yeah no that's a good movie yeah i can awesome i would i feel um remiss yeah right as you should yeah
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Anyway, though, back to your story. 25 sucked balls. Yeah. 24 and 25 were fucking shit. It's tough. 26 got better because I got engaged. And then 27 and 28 have been fun. So I think the closer that I think 25 is like a hard point in life because you're like in the middle. And I think friends get weird at that point in time.
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And I think the closer you get to 30. Yeah. When you get into your 30s, I feel like it starts being awesome. Coasting. Yeah. Like I feel like I the closer I got to 30.
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you figure it out and then i had my my twins at 30 yeah so it was like the beginning of like awesomeness yeah i think yeah i think the the closer you get to like making your own family or like even like you know getting married or anything like that and like choosing your own space yeah it's you get happier to me my 20s are overrated yeah i think they are to me in my opinion maybe your 20s are awesome and like for that i mean good for you i haven't heard anyone ever say that no i've heard everybody be like fuck my 20s
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There it is. It was our idea. Speaking of like actual regular episodes, this is an actual episode, but it's Listener Tales. So we are going to put out Rodney Part 2, Rodney Alcala Part 2 on Monday. If you're watching this, it's probably like Thursday or like this came out on a Thursday. So we just... Wanted to have like a little breather after part one. Quick little palate cleanser.
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I think your 20s are just like a redo of your teens, but like with a little more information. Yeah. And then your 30s are like, wow, we got to we got to reel it in. We got to like overhaul this whole thing.
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So it's going to be good. Yeah. So attached is a double space put a foot and word document and times new Roman size 14 font documenting the time my dad found old dolls hidden inside of a wall. Damn. As in to the windows to the walls. I have attached photos as well for viewing pleasure. I'm breaking again. Sorry in advance if they give you the creeps. They seem to have that effect on people.
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I hope it's not too long and not too boring. Keep it weird. And maybe don't look at these photos after dark. Much love, Angelica. Yeah. No, it brings viewing displeasure, but like in a fun way. Yeah. Also, the name of this listener tale is fucking top notch. To the walls. To the sweat drip down my dolls. It is to the windows, to the walls, to the sweat drip down my dolls. Love it. You're an icon.
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A little background may be helpful before we get into the story. My father does home improvement and often has to demo houses. He gets to tear down walls, break shit, and have a good time doing it. That would also be a fun job. I literally paid to do that once. Yeah, it's called a rage room. Hell yeah, and I want to do it again. We should.
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During this process, sometimes he gets lucky and finds treasures. Let me tell you, rich people love to throw away perfectly good shit all the time. We got a $3,000 new stove for our home because said rich people wanted to throw it in a dumpster. Damn. Why the fuck are you throwing out a perfectly good fucking stove? Yeah, donate that shit.
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Anyway, my dad has found some great things along the way and usually passes these things to me. He's given me books, CDs, records, antiques, and housewares. On one occasion, he brought home 10 trash bags full of vintage clothing, including one deceased woman's wedding dress and her mother's wedding dress from the 1920s. Huh? That's why I picked this one. Was it mine?
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it wasn't I'm not from the 1920s it's like thrifting but I don't need to do any work or spend any money While my dad has many interesting stories and has one of the most chaotic lives I know, this story is not really about him, although he would love it if it were. He would fill up an entire episode of Listener Tales just telling you about the past few years of his life.
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Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
But alas, this is a story about the time my dad found a case of dolls inside of a wall.
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Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
My dad was demoing a house somewhere in Baltimore. It had already been vacated. We know nothing of the previous owners. And the new owners had asked my dad to break down a few walls for a new project. Piece of cake. My dad does this all the time. As he's doing his thing, probably while listening to Bruce Springsteen, he could see something hidden, hiding inside the wall.
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My dad has seen a lot of shit in his day, but nothing like this. He starts to rip away the wall, and what he found shook him. It's a handmade case with a plexiglass front with some tiny, creepy-ass looking dolls inside. Each doll was zip-tied to a wooden board with holes in it. Why? Of attached photos.
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why she has attached isn't that the scariest shit you've ever seen why are they they're zip tied like like by the neck yeah yeah another weirder shit you ever i don't like it i don't love it and they're all different little creepy dolls like some of our baby dolls yeah wait till you find out what they are I don't like these at all. Spooky ooky ooky. Holy shit. He just found that on a wall.
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Yeah, we're going to get into some gnarly shit in parts two and three. So this is like your little send off into that, which is...
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Yeah, there's a lot going on there. I mean, they're kind of cute in a creepy way, right? No.
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I sat in the living room with him as he recounted his tale. He was sure that they were haunted because why else were they buried in someone's wall? That's the thing. I thought they were a little creepy, but overall endearing. And I was more so curious of the origins of the dolls. Me too. I'm curious of the origins. I don't find them endearing, though.
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I also found it interesting they were zip-tied by their necks to the board. Same. To keep them there for viewing or to contain them from committing doll acts of evil, we will never know. I think the latter. Yeah, they've been zip-tied and secured behind the plexiglass for as long as I have had them.
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And I would be lying if I said I was not at least a little bit scared of the idea of releasing them from their habitat. In fear that maybe the case has been blessed or whatever, and opening it would unleash some little doll demons, just like in the movies. And I'm not about to be the dumb bitch who dies from her mistake. Good for you, man. See?
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if they aren't right if they do decide to one day become haunted i like that they like they'll just be like dormant and then they'll just become haunted someday they reserve that right yeah oh thank you y'all will absolutely be the first to know if i am still alive to tell the tale hell yeah brother thank you hell yeah that's an honor that's an honor it is i also want to share that we moved recently and the movers refused to move them to our new home they were a little creeped out by them that's actually hilarious i wish i was a fly on the wall for that conversation
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Nice. Yeah. Yeah. We love it. Yeah. I picked the tails today. They are, there's like sort of a theme, I guess. I feel like there's a theme, but without a theme.
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Like, they just go in the other room and they're like, no, dude, I'm not moving that.
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And the other one's like, I'm not touching it either. I'm not doing that. This is kind of part of our job. Like, what are we supposed to tell them? And then they just go to you. We're supposed to be grown adults. Why are we touching the dolls? I'm not touching the dolls. Like, I can hear it in my head. I guess so. Like, I can hear it.
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Now, on my search to understand more, I came across a group on Facebook that is specifically for dolls and doll collecting. Oh, shit. I just want to say that those guys are on it and very good at what they do. Shout out to that group. Hey, group. Hey, group. As soon as I posted the dolls, people went crazy, and I had multiple offers in my inbox.
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Apparently, these things are worth something besides just nightmares. From what I could gather, the dolls inside are considered penny dolls. During World War II, soldiers would buy them for their children and bring them home to the U.S. They are rare and very sought after by doll lovers and collectors. The dolls likely have real human hair. No, thank you.
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I don't want to know where they got the hair and hope to never find out given what was going on in the world during that time. That's exactly what I was thinking. Yeah, no, thank you. You can tell by looking at them that someone took great care to make the dolls as detailed as possible.
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Maybe the person who, I don't know, hid them in the walls, still very sus, knew they were valuable and wanted to preserve them and keep them away from the sunlight. Or maybe they were fucking terrified of them. Yeah. But I don't, if I was so scared of something, I don't think I'd put it in my wall. No. So it can just like breed contempt for me in there? I don't want that. Breed contempt.
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The vibes are right. I looked for like, I searched the word Gatsby. I searched the creepy doll and speakeasy. I like that.
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Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I don't want that. You are a writer. I do not want that. Maybe the original owner tried to get rid of them, but each time they threw them away, they reappeared on the person's doorstep like that creepy Ouija board in that one listener's tale.
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I think that's what happened. So they put them in the wall. I'm not sure what the doll's origin story is, but I think we can all agree that hiding them in your wall is a bit strange. I think it's funny. I think it's kind of funny. I think it's a practical joke. I think they were blessed because they were haunted and probably ruining the original owner's life.
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And they were told to put it in the wall so that they would never be found.
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probably and disturbed and now they've been disturbed i feel like you if you didn't want them to be disturbed though you'd like bury them in the backyard but that's hard because there's a lot of them and it's big putting them in a wall is just like putting something in a wall is like tough though you gotta like cut the wall well that's the other thing that's a lot that's why a practical joke that's pretty intense practice oh i will commit to a practical i mean samesies but how many people will do that
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poll you know yeah let's see would you would you open your wall as a practical joke i just thought of jasper on tiktok when she's like who wants buffalo chicken wings raise your hand what was the first one if you want was it mozzarella stick i think it was you want mozzarella raise your hand buffalo chicken fingers My dad gave these dolls to me when I was around 18 and I'm 25 now.
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I live with my husband, cat, and dog Luna. Pictures attached. I heard you guys were into that kind of thing.
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We love animals. The dolls hang out in my basement because my husband is thoroughly freaked out by them, despite my attempts to reassure him. I would love to display them somewhere as a conversation piece, but that's unlikely to ever happen. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to make them into a coffee table with the plexiglass being the top of it. That's a conversation.
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It's two things. It's such a good idea, and it's also something that a weird couple would propose to do on flea market flips. Yes. Absolutely. Side note, I used to be super afraid of dolls when I was younger. I blame this on my aunt, who decided to place her super realistic toddler doll in her hallway with a knife in its hand when I was a child. Yeah, that's her fault. That's her fault.
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And even if they're not, it makes sense. Yeah. Also, I want to wear these gloves every day. As you should. Also, I had something really cool happen before this and I'm having trouble concentrating and I can't say what it is yet.
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We'll fight her if you want. That's her fault. We can fight her. Yeah. A real knife from her kitchen. She got a kick out of that. Thankfully, I'm now a huge horror fan and love everything spooky and scary. And funny enough, I fucking love dolls now. Really? The only thing that can truly terrify me are giants.
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Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
And I am betting and pray whoever will fucking listen to whoever will fucking listen that they are not real. I also don't like giant things. You don't. She doesn't like giants. You don't like giant things. Or giants. Like, I don't want like, like, I mean, like, you know, those ogres sort of. Yeah. Yeah. Like the earth giants from Frozen. That would scare the shit out of me. Yeah.
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That would be fucked up. I don't like that at all. Well, they could just like squish you. Yeah. I don't like it. I can pretty much handle anything scary. But when it comes to giants, a line is crossed. And if they ever do turn out to be real, I will exit this life before things get too spicy. Just kidding, just kidding, just kidding. I like how niche that is.
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Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Anyway, I will keep these dolls probably forever. All jokes aside, the history and craftsmanship are incredible. I know I sound like a huge weirdo, but hey, we all have our things. You're not weird. Now that I've given you some spookies, I need to give you some giggles. I also included a photo of my Princess Diana rip doll that my mother got me for a few years ago.
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Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I was convinced for years that I was related to her, that she would rescue me to be a princess with her. I love that for you. Then I found out that she was very dead and that I was not a princess. Anyways, my husband has convinced me that this is not. It's not Princess Diana. It's Owen Wilson wearing a dress. He's not wrong. You might be right. He might be right. Can I get a wow?
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Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
wow is that good randomly the other night we were at a hotel and i woke up at 3 a.m to owen wilson on the tv and i was like what the fuck is this and then i saw j-lo and i was like am i what hello they were in like a weird movie together recently really yeah she's like a pop star and she's like dating some i think she's dating bad bunny i think i saw clips of this and it looked insane i woke up at 3 a.m and i was just like
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it is it's really cool i just had to say that we can't say too much because i feel i give things away so easily like with my face and like even like one i'll say one thing and people are like i know exactly what you're saying and i'm like i was really trying to be trying to be undercover there trying to be coy i could never be a narc no or well i guess maybe maybe i'd be a good narc you just wouldn't be a good undercover like you couldn't be like an informant
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That's a fever dream, is what that is. I watched like 15 minutes of it. Oh my god, you showed me little Luna, aka Luna Tuna. Luna Tuna! I'm obsessed with Luna Tuna. Aw, you guys are cute. You guys are adorable. Give me Luna Tuna. Yeah. Immediately. Wait, also, you have to put those in your wall when the time is nigh. Luna Tuna?
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Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
i'm just kidding no the dolls yes but the dolls in your wall like if you know you're gonna make an exit from the coil when you're like your walls hit my microphone not anytime soon but like when you know you're gonna when when you're like 98 yeah like when you feel like you're about to shuffle off this mortal coil just shove them in your walls just do a quick home project yeah just call a quick contractor but do it early just call them up and say
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I need you to hide these dolls in my walls. I found these dolls in a wall when my dad did when I was a girl. And... Develop an accent. Okay. Before you do this. Workshop it, okay? Yeah, you'll get there. You got it. You have time. Okay. Luna Tuna for life. Luna Tuna. Luna Tuna. I don't know why I sang it, but I did. You sing lots of things. I like it. It's true, I do. It's true, I do. It's true.
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That sounds like a Nana Bob song. The rewatcher. Go listen to the rewatcher. Let me take a drink of my water. I think we could probably finish on this. This one is Listener Tales. Predicting death is my sixth sense. Oh, fuck yeah. Let's go. Yeah. It says, hi, Deb Deb. Oh, you too, Ash and Elena. Oh, hey. I love you, weirdos, and hope you read this on the pod. Well, here we are.
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It is a terrifying yet interesting experience, and I haven't heard a listener tell like it, so I hope it stands out. To sweeten the deal, there's a picture of a puppy and a baby. You guys know. You guys just know. Included is a 14-point double-spaced pot of fur. And this is actually my second time submitting because I sent it to the wrong email. I really want to know who got that email.
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I also want to know that. Reading time is approximately 15 minutes and 15 seconds, but not unlike two weirdos I know, I stumble on words a lot. Damn. Yeah, it do be us. And this is from Millie. Millie!
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the biggest and most vivacious hello to ash elena and deb deb my name vivacious vivacious my name is millie use it bitch i will millie attached a photo of moi simply because when i read i love i always love a face for context she's gorgeous so pretty you that that face card girl fuck it up fuck it up damn the mug never declined millie I know what you're thinking.
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Are you a 5'11 thick indigenous woman with a bodacious booty? That's literally what I was thinking. Yes, I am. Thank you for answering that. It's giving everything. It's giving all the things I need. I love it. I'm a relatively new listener. My mouth just made a gross noise, so I'm going to say that again. I am a relatively new listener who started her morbid journey in August of 2022.
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Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
However, I'm quickly catching up to all of the episodes. I started at the most recent and I'm working my way backwards, which is apparently not what the normal is. But you know what it is? It's what we suggest. And we actually suggest that you stop at a certain point and never listen to the early ones. Yes. In fact, we were talking about this the other day. That's actually really funny. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
That we were like, whenever when somebody says they're new to the pod, we're like, are you starting from the beginning? Because we're like, are you still here? Go from newest to oldest so you can appreciate us later. I still grow off on a tangent, obviously, but the tangents that my ass would go off on, it was a different time. I think I was like, was I like 22 when we started this?
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Yeah, I was so fucking annoying. You were young and... I'm still pretty annoying, but I own it. I was annoying then, too. Yeah, I'm still annoying. Let's be annoying together. Forever. Forever. Ooh, that was a good one. It was. Mm-hmm. We didn't cheers. Never mind. I was going to say, did we make eye contact? But we did. But we did. We went, why did I forget instantly? Are you a witch?
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Are you a witch? Are you a witch? Are you a wizard, Harry? Oh, God. Oh, God. We were like, we don't go on tangents anymore.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
We never go on tangents. Everyone's like, this has been six hours long.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
All right, back to Millie's tale. Millie! Millie! We're kind of hungry, I think. We are. I have tacos waiting for me. I have like a slaw that I made. A slaw. A slaw. With some rotis chick.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
No. No. Oh my god. I think about that a lot. I think about that a lot. When we do cases where somebody wears a wire, I'm like, I could never. First of all, my IBS could not. I would just shit myself instantly. My IBS could never. My IBS could not handle that. And neither could my delicate psyche. Because we're one step away from a full break. I just laugh.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
So work your way backwards and stop at a certain point. However, I'm the farthest. I'm the farthest. In the fjord. I'm in the fjord. Don't start with the fjord, because then I'll go on a tangent to Conan. Uh-oh. He has a song. However, I'm the farthest thing away from normal, so it's incredibly fitting. I'm an English major, so if there are any grammatical errors, feel free to call my ass out.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I know you two love the art of making others defecate themselves, so please use her full name because she will take a monstrous giddy dump in her jeans. Ashley Little. Ashley just took a dump. This is her photo. This is her photo. Aw, Ashley, you're adorable. She's grudge. She's big grudge. Yeah. Okay, gushing time. I absolutely adore you two. I adore you. And I hate people, so that says a lot.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Oh my god, you are my people. and we hate people too yeah you've made your way into being a daily part of my life and when i'm driving to and from work and listen to you on my hour-long commute it feels like i have the two coolest bitches behind me in the back seat thank you who are constantly almost responsible for my untimely demise as i find myself repeatedly swerving after a laughing fit
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Nor, nor. One time you made me laugh so hard when talking about dick cheese that I snotted all over myself and almost died running off the road trying to find a Kleenex. Don't do that, you two say. But if my end includes snot running down my face and tears in my eyes from hysterical laughter about dick cheese, that sounds like a good way to go. Who are we? Crazy. Who are we?
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Segwaying to the tale with death. This is about a few yet far too many times that I have predicted death. This is cray. By the way, I'm already sporting doo-doo drawers and I don't even know if you read this on the pod yet. So if I hear you reading this, then my pants are already off and on fire. I love it. I live in a very rural town in New Brunswick, Canada.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I'm talking I graduated with 12 people rural. Holy shit. I thought other people's schools were small. However, to begin this story, we set the scene in the big city of Brampton, Ontario. Brampton is about a half hour from Toronto and is way too big for my liking. I grace the lives of my parents by making my glorious entrance into this hellhole we call the world on April 4th, 2000.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
That's right, Ash. I'm an Aries sun and moon and my rising is Capricorn. I see you, Elena. Oh, hell yeah. Double Aries. You are fiery as fuck. I'm married an Aries. And Capricorn, even though Capricorn is an earth sign, I feel like they're like pretty, pretty scrappy. Yeah. You're probably scrappy. Yeah, you're scrappy as fuck. And I love that about you.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Any time I'm feeling any type of way, I start laughing or smiling. So I'd be so shitty. Remember the time that I was, I won't say who it is, but remember the time we had to go to a funeral together and we couldn't stop laughing? Because I just can't handle emotions. No, nothing was funny. It was actually very sad. But we were sat together in a church pew, if you can fucking picture that.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I get along really well with Aries and Capricorn. Yeah. Same. Yeah. Mom and dad, John and Elena. Yeah. So make your own most likely accurate assumptions. I did. We did. My parents divorced a few years after my birth, just in 2004. But don't be sorry. It was for the best. This is hilarious. My dad found himself in the awkward situation of accidentally falling into women's vajinas.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
And my mother was tired of his quote unquote slip ups. Fast forward to 2006. That's a great way to describe that. I love that. That's somebody who has healed. Yeah, you've healed. Fast forward to 2006. I'm six years old and my dad's living in Brampton with another woman who I'm glad to say he's no longer with. She was a very angry Italian woman who was a bit hard on the noggin.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Or maybe she wasn't angry and she just spoke in a perpetual scream. I'm not really sure. That's a lot. I was playing with Polly Pockets alone in my room, Ash gets it, when I had a feeling. It made me stop and pause with every strand of hair on my little body standing straight in the air as if I were hanging upside down.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
This feeling and the facial expression I would have worn is comparable, I don't know why I said it like that, comparable to someone who horrifically realized that their fart had not in fact been a fart. Did you get that? They are. That's prison, Mike. I don't watch The Office. Don't yell at me. You gotta watch it, man. Maybe. Prison Mike.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I didn't have a vision, more like an awareness, that my great-grandfather, who was in perfect health, was going to die. I walked around with this weight for the entire day, asking- A six-year-old? Yeah. That's like one of your babes. Asking my dad if he had been talking to Grandpa. He said no, that he hadn't that day, but he just spoke with him the week before, and he asked why I was wondering.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
"'No reason,' I replied, kicking my feet together and avoiding eye contact. "'I was just wondering.'" This feeling, I remember, was not one I wanted to share, and it kept me up most of the night. I laid in bed until sleep found me in the early hours of the morning, and I arose to my dad standing at my door, looking forlorn and also suspicious. Grandpa passed away last night, he said hesitantly.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
His tone was a mix of grief and suspicion. Did this man think my small, fragile, and incapable body could walk a two-hour drive in the middle of the night and somehow unalive my grandfather? Like, come on. Oh, relatable. That makes me sad for you. I know. The memory stuck with me for a while until it began to fade as the years went on. I had forgotten about the feeling and what it felt like.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I resumed my life and paid it no mind until I was 14. I had my laptop going with karaoke songs as I was home alone and aspired to be a famous singer at the time. Hell yeah. Typically speaking, though, in order to be famous, you have to be good at singing, which I was not.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
i mean do you it's subjective it's 2025 now yeah you don't really have to be good much anymore think the demon cat from pet cemetery being shook around and then thrown out a wall love that that's the most accurate description of my singing voice even to this day right in the middle of the ear piercing belt of the chorus to rolling in the deep it stopped i stopped god wait i took a vocal class once and it was rolling in the deep and i thought i slayed that shit
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
And we just couldn't stop laughing. We couldn't. And my grandpa gave a eulogy and it was so Boston.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
And then I got home and I recorded myself and I never went back to voice acting and voice lessons again. I love. I said, teacher Jamie. You said I did not roll. I'm sorry. I said auto tune would never help this. So I stopped. It reminded me of Raven from That's So Raven when she'd get a vision. The same feeling I had ejected from my homunculus? Yeah. Homunculus?
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I'd returned with a vengeance with one major difference, the person it surrounded. This time it was my grandmother on my mom's side, Ruby, who I would later name my daughter after.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
You get the fuck out of here with that kid. I can't. I can't. That's a cute ass kid. I can't. Ruby. I can't. She's so fucking cute. I love her. I know. And look, she's kind of like judging whoever she's looking at. She's like, she's got like that eyebrow action. Her mom is a double Aries. I'm impressed.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Well, grandmother Ruby was the, and I, this reminds me of this lady, Judy, I used to live with who I fucking loved so much. Grandmother Ruby. Yeah. Yeah. She was a kind woman who would always be found drinking Diet Pepsi from a vintage floral glass and watching Judge Judy. Well, she'd have it on the TV, but she'd be talking so much through it that you could not understand what was happening.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Love that. And then she'd look at anyone with her and go, what's happening? Damn overly religious white women. I decided to let it go and hope that I wasn't right. But that night at 3 a.m., my grandmother was taken by ambulance and passed in the hospital. I know. I'm sorry. I went home and looked in the mirror like someone in a movie, not even sure of who I was seeing. I screamed, what the fuck?
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Which was a big deal because I didn't say a single swear word until I was 17. Whoa. And I've progressed so much now that I'm convinced my child will think her name is fuck. I love how you write so hard. The feeling of confusion, dread, and fear enveloped my body like a spiky blanket. I like a spiky blanket. I like them both. I still refuse to share my curse with anyone.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
You know, I freaking loved that guy. But yeah, I can't. Anytime to process an emotion, I laugh or smile.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
And again, it went dormant for years to come. 2018 is when it returned yet again. My ex-boyfriend. We ended on good terms. Don't worry.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I love that because we never hear that. I know. Rarely. My ex-boyfriend and I were living in our first apartment. I was in my first year of university, and I was sat at my makeup station one morning, putting on some semblance of a falsified, excited face for the day.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Being in university, I needed all the help I could get with the bags under my eyes and permanent look of depression that encapsulated my face. Then, spoiler alert, it hit. The feeling. Though this time would be slightly different from the previous two. This time, it wasn't someone that was directly related to me. It was my boyfriend's grandfather. The other difference was how quickly it happened.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
The other two times were at least a 12-hour span between the feeling and death. This time, I had the feeling, cooked in it for about five minutes, and then my boyfriend called me. My heart fucking sank. He said, Papa didn't wake up from his sleep this morning. Aww.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
And I often have to say, I'm not finding this funny. I am upset. Like, I have to tell people, like, I'm upset, I promise. Yeah, that's your tism too. It is. It's real.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
i had to force myself to pretend to act shocked though it was earlier than expected i still knew it was coming is he dead i asked with a fake surprise no i think it's just diabetic coma he'll probably be fine he answered first of all who the fuck calls someone and says so so and so didn't wake up from their sleep just being like casually they're fine though he'll probably be fine like what that's probably fine that's not how you tell someone that also like probably just a diabetic coma it's like oh just that little thing oh you know yeah
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Anyways, I didn't dare tell him what I knew, and I was also hoping that I was going to be wrong this time. His grandfather was a pure and kind soul. He was in his late 80s, still chopping wood, cooking, dancing, and living his life. We'd go over all the time and play skip bow, and he'd get so zoned out we'd have to yell his name 30 times to snap him out of it. Oh, my turn! He'd shout!
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Oh my god, I love him. That's so sweet. I drove to the hospital to meet with them, and we went to the room he was in. Once the family was rounded up, the doctor came over and broke the news. He had a brain bleed. He said, more forcefully than I would have liked. That happens a lot. Yeah, it's very clinical. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
He's being kept alive by the machines, but once we unhook him, I don't expect him to live long after. I felt helpless. So many loved ones I knew would die, and I could do nothing but sit back and wait. That must be so hard. Yeah, that's tough. Nothing I could have done could have prevented these deaths, yet I was burdened with the knowledge of the inevitable. That's exactly what it is.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
That's a burden. Yeah, it is a burden. These first three death predictions would soon prove themselves to be the easiest that I would have to encounter. I had eventually split from my ex and was living the single life. We were together since I was 14, and I was now 20 and lost. No sense of an identity, an introvert with one friend, and my time was mostly taken up by school and work.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
it's part of that and so i don't it's just so this is the only way i know how to process anything so i'm just gonna like maniacally laugh for okay which this is a good thing yeah it makes sense do you want to go first do you think that will be helpful yeah i'll go first okay okay that's that sounds good dive in because i'm so happy oh gee morbid she's about to dive in everybody
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I felt confused as to the next steps to take. Then a guy messaged me on Facebook. To protect his identity, since his name is incredibly unique, we'll call him Fred. Fred. Fred. It reminds me of, hey, it's Fred. Remember that guy? Yeah. Fred started chatting with me and flirting, but in a kind, genuine, and respectful way. I learned he was from India and he was here for school.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
He was incredibly gifted with humor, intelligence, perseverance, and sheer willpower. He went to the same university as I did and we hit it off right away. However, just as friends as I was not ready for another relationship. We spent time together and I learned how fascinating of a human he was. He was in boarding school in India and was in a gang in his teen years.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
He survived being stabbed and got out of that place in his life. His family also owned a tiger. A tiger. His name was Timothy. Like a whole ass tiger. A tiger named Timothy. Yeah. Holy shit. They rescued and rehabilitated him. How much cooler can he get? Not much. He was always very kind and I enjoyed the time we spent together. We were inseparable friends for a few months.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
When he moved here, he turned his life around, got heavy into the gym, and then excelled even more at academics. He got a moker cycle.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
It's a little bit different than a moker cycle. You ever been on a moker cycle? You know? Thank you for a rattier laugh. It's crazy. He got a motor cycle and would venture around on it all the time. He was also an incredibly talented painter. He cracked jokes that would make me laugh so hard I cried.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
He said all the strange Indian men that have probably messaged you before, and yet I had the charm to get your attention. However, his tale would end like the rest. One day, I was sitting in my room alone, thoughts to myself, when it came, the feeling, the dread.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
no i screamed to whatever it was not him it horrified me i was so scared and helpless and that's when fred messaged me and told me he was going cliff jumping with his friend oh this will eat me alive forever but i said okay be safe i thought once again fate would change he was going with someone which meant that he would be safe i thought i was just in my head about this one he's 23 there's no way anything could happen to him you're indestructible when you're 23 right wrong
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
the next day i woke up and i realized i hadn't heard from him no text no call since 3 p.m the previous day i called no answer i texted i called again that's when i messaged the friends that he was with can you meet me she asked i agreed and she broke the news His death was classified as a drowning. She said he hit the water and started flailing.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
She ran down to the bottom and tried to bring him in but he was panicking and was bringing her down into the water. She got back up on land and turned to grab him once more but there was no sign of him. He was gone.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
My prediction is the force he picked up on his way down threw him deeper into the water than he had the breath for and he started inhaling before he reached the surface and never made it out.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
That's awful. I didn't sleep or eat for weeks, months even. I lost a concerning amount of weight. I could have stopped him, but I didn't believe my gut. I blamed his death on myself ever since.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
It's not your fault. And you don't want to mess with fate, you know? Yeah, and it's hard to believe that you know when these things are happening, so you're probably second-guessing it. Exactly. I would stay up at night crying and apologizing to him, someone with so much light, so much potential and purpose, gone.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
That is until I went to a medium and she assured me that my gift was not just in my head. And even if I begged him not to go, he still would have went. That helped a little bit. Yeah. The last prediction was the strangest and most haunting of them all. Trigger warning for suicide here. I was at work. I'm a waitress and I work in a small chain restaurant just in Atlantic Canada.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
i'm about to dive in there it is oh that was really good alicia that was good is she here we need like a little like seance table in front of us which i feel like we're dressed for oh yeah you're you're actually i feel like something about the green is giving very madame leota oh i love that is it leona or leota it's whatever you want it to be This is your show. It can be what you want.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
The place was dead and I was wandering around searching for things to do when I got the feeling. But it wasn't just a feeling this time. It was a vision, too. I got this overwhelming, all-encompassing sense of sorrow, depression, and hopelessness. I was in a first-person perspective and went into my room, though, similar to how dreams work.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
It wasn't actually my room in reality, but in this vision it was mine, and I locked the door. I then grabbed gasoline, poured it on myself, and lit myself on fire. Holy shit. But I wasn't anyone I knew, which was the strangest thing. I had thought it was weird and definitely concerning, but it wasn't anyone I was familiar with.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Each one of my previous womp feelings, I knew the person I was referring to. I shook it off. The next day, I was on social media and read something on the news. At the exact same time I had a vision, a young guy a few towns over went into his room, locked the door, poured gas on himself, and set himself on fire. He did not survive. I have chills all over my arm.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
i was in shock i didn't know him and this was also completely different from my other experiences i felt so afraid for those i felt so afraid for so long these would keep happening but that was a few years ago and they seem to have stopped i'd like to think that they're gone forever but i refuse to let my guard down because that's when death will sneak up on me like a fox with an unsuspecting squirrel so until then death but i'll be waiting for you thank you ladies for reading my tale if you did and if this is on the podcast i will never shut up about it
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I hope you ladies enjoy the rest of your day, week, month, life, year, etc. And I can't wait to continue to keep up with your journeys and see where life takes you. Thanks. Elena, I read your book and I absolutely adored it. Thank you. I took a hiatus from casual reading after life got incredibly busy. This is the best compliment. And your book brought me back to the bookworm I used to be.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Oh, that's literally my favorite compliment ever. So thank you for that. And I cannot wait for the second one. Hell yeah. Ash, that's me.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
i'm anxiously waiting for the pictures of your drew's wedding day and i'm so happy you have such a beautiful human to love and to love you because you both deserve that and more drew is a beautiful thank you he's the most beautiful human i know he's so lovely it's ridiculous i don't know how i got we love a drew i love him so much i just want to punch him just with love right in the kisser until then keep it weird but maybe not this weird millie but here's a picture of my dog stanley because why not he's just like oh my god i'm obsessed with
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I love him so much. He was doing like the Meg the Stallion. Yeah. Good job. I'm so proud of you. Look at me, I'm learning things. Oh my goodness, guys. Millie, that was a fucking harrowing tale. Haunting. Like harrowing. But you wrote it so well that it was, I just, it was fascinating. These were so good. They were so good. I have tacos. I have slaw. And chicken. And chicken. And chicken.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Chicken. This was amazing. This was so much fun. I feel like this is the most fun I've had on. Yeah, this was a lot of fun. Yeah, I think we're getting more comfortable being on camera. Definitely. I'm not going to do it that much more, but. No, we're going to keep it like this. Yeah. I said, don't get your hopes up. Don't get your hopes up. Don't. But we'll do lists on our tails. Yeah, for sure.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
We'll do lists on our tails. We'll keep doing that. We'll do it.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
um and until then we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird but not so weird that you predict death definitely keep it like i mean keep it that weird it's kind of interesting uh definitely keep it so weird that you cut a hole in your wall and you had some creepy ass dolls in there oh yeah i have to open the rest because i don't have a memory due to 15 years of my life um
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Oh, keep it so weird that as a ghost you shove peaches up people's noses. Don't keep it so weird that your dog gets possessed, but that wasn't your fault, obviously. Keep it so weird that you run a non-profit for dogs, though. That's fucking absolutely incredible. And I think I got all of them. Yeah, just keep it weird. Keep it the weirdest. So weird. Ba-da-boo!
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Exactly. So you can make it whatever you want. I wish we took that tagline. I know. Like I wish we thought of it. That's a great tagline. Like I wish we stole that. I wish we could steal. No, I love them. So should I do the time a ghost shoved peaches up my nose? Yeah, that one's really funny, actually. Just nose. I said nosed. I'm not really sure. I didn't even hear that you said nose.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
You say whatever you want to say. I will, because it's my show. And not yours. Just kidding. All right, so let's get to this. All right. Hi there, spooky gals. Hi. My name is Jessie. Okay, I was making sure I could use it. I can use it. I don't mind if you use it. I appreciate you ladies and whatnot. I would say all the mushy stuff, but I'm not good at that.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Me neither. I'm the mushiest gushiest. So I'll just say you love us.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
And we love you. In fact, I had to say something really mushy to John the other night. You did? I had like a moment. You know how you get that moment of feeling like overwhelmingly appreciative? Yeah. Like you're just like, wow, you're so lovely. Yeah. And I get to hang with you forever. Yeah. And so I had all these like emotions about it. And he happened to be upstairs doing something.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
So I texted him and I literally said, I don't know how to do this in person. So deal with it. And he was like, that first part of the text had me dying. Also, 18 years into marriage, I don't really know how to tell you how much I love you. So deal with it. So deal with it. I'm going to text it to you. But he was like, he literally was like, I'm dying. You're unreal.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Sorry, I had a little piece of hair and like just like one piece of hair. Oh, that happens to me a lot. There it is.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
So I just didn't want you to yell at me for touching my face. No, don't worry. It's cool. So it says insert bunches of mush here. LOL. Honestly, that's essentially what I did to John the other day. I love that you did. You guys are the best and get what I mean. I do. I love you. I appreciate you. I respect you.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I previously sent this tale in, but after rereading it due to my BFF Alyssa, you can use her name. Thank you because I used it. Who also loves Morbid, by the way. Thank you, Alyssa. Alyssa! Told me I severely spelled Ottoman wrong. I mean, that happens. I would have done that too. I don't spell things correct.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I realized that in an effort to stay on topic and not get distracted a million times like I tend to do, that my tail was actually pretty short and needed more zest. Oh, I love zest. We love zest, darling. We're going for the zest. However, if you want a quick one, then feel free to use the original version. I'm not picky. I want this one. Yeehaw. Let's get into it.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I'm from Florida, hence my yeehaw. I was wondering. Yeehaw. Anywho, I'm a full-time dog nanny. That's awesome. Another dream job. That's a fucking great job. That I could handle. Yeah. I could do that. My IBS could definitely take that. And they said, yes, you could call it a pet sitter, but dog nanny sounds way cooler. I like dog nanny. I agree. Dog nanny. Yeah. A nanny for dogs. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
For context, back in the day, I used to groom dogs full time and give them snazzy haircuts. Shout out to Ash. I know it's not the same, but still, we were both some sort of hairstylist. It's also probably better because dogs can't talk. Yeah. And you got to make those dogs look fresh. Oh, it makes sense. One thing I'm going to miss about TikTok is watching dog grooming videos. Yes.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
When they make them look like little teddy bears. Little teddy bears. Little teddy bears. And they put the little bows on their hair.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I love that. Back then, I didn't dog nanny much since I was focused on being a dog barber. But there was a family with two dogs that I have always made time to nanny for. And I have claimed the dogs as my own since then. I would do that too. I visit them three to five times a week.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I'd like to think if the doggies were to become parentless for whatever reason that they would come live with me over anyone else in the family. I love how dark that thought is. If their entire family died, I feel like I would get custody of them. I feel like if for some reason their parents just...
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
weren't here anymore that i would get those dogs they just like vanished off the entire earth i love your mind yeah it's good i've had dogs written to me in people's wills that's like high praise that's the highest of praise like truly are you leaving me your dogs damn I mean, I trust you with them for sure, but I wouldn't want to disrupt your cats.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Because I care about those cats. Yeah, thank you. I care about those dogs.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Sellers can also sync their product catalog directly with Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and Google to reach more customers and reduce the steps for a purchase. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, www.squarespace.com slash morbid to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Yeah, you know. Let's hope they stay alive because while I want all the dogs in the world, I already have two amazing fur babies of my own. And if I end up with more, I may need to get a bigger house. Yeah. Well, alrighty, for the first few years, the family mentioned above lived in a beautiful, safe-feeling house. Well, not anymore. Uh-oh. Last year, they moved.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
The pet parent, as I like to call it, had mentioned that her mother, who previously owned the home, left behind some antique items such as vintage mirrors, figurines, and the scariest dolls you have ever seen. All throughout the house. Plus, the house is covered in old-timey wallpaper, which isn't super relevant other than the spooky-ooky vibes. I love, which isn't super relevant, but spooky-ooky.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
In fact, there's a wallpaper man at my house right now figuring out how much wallpaper I need to order. Which is really badass. I'm so excited. It makes me want to wallpaper things. I'm going to order so much wallpaper. I love that. Flash forward to the first time I had a slumber party with the dogs there. There was a double closet in the room I was staying in.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I was hearing sounds from one side of the closet throughout the night, kind of like a tapping or soft banging noise. I'm a scaredy cat in general, so this was a huge nope for me. I opened that side of the closet only to find creepy dolls in rocking chairs. Specifically, doll-sized rocking chairs. You said in rocking chairs or and rocking chairs? In rocking chairs.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I just pictured like dolls on one side, multiple rocking chairs on the other. And these are dolls in their doll-sized rocking chairs. Just tiny rocking chairs. Ready? I'm going to look at every camera and say no. No, no, no. That's not even my camera, but I'm going to look at it and say no. Uh-uh.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
not up in here no it reminds me of ma i love that bitch i love that bitch so much but at home in one of our hallways ma had i'm not shitting your dicks guys she had three like big like three three story cases yeah of dolls yeah and let me tell you when you're like sneaking home at night after like a little
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
You sneak home at night fully sober. You walk up the stairs in the daytime at that house fully sober. They're going to eat you. The dolls. They're coming at you. They're staring at you. She loves it. Oh, and I had to walk past every case to get to my room. I think that's why. So obviously I grew up in that house. Yeah. And I grew up with those dolls. Yeah, that's your mom.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I am not freaked out by dolls. And I think it's because I spent my entire formative years Being exposed to those dolls being in my life at all times. I spent a lot of time being exposed to those dolls too. And I. I don't know. I hate them. I mean, I don't know what it did. Because I think I'm just so used to them. I was used to her getting dolls for different like holidays.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
I think there's a puppy coin. There is a puppy coin. She wants to say hello. She said, you're talking about doggies and I'm a dog. Hello. That's definitely a Blanche. That's definitely a Blanche. She said, I like the 1920s. My name's Blanche. Can I wear a dress? But yeah, I'm not freaked out by dolls. Like dolls don't freak me out in general.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
There's a lot in life that feels like it should be guaranteed, but it just isn't. Things like your friends being on their way when they text you, or getting out the same number of socks from the dryer that you put in. AT&T is introducing a new guarantee, the AT&T Guarantee, because there's a lot in life that's not guaranteed.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Now I'm just thinking rural doll. Yeah. But yeah, I don't like dolls. What a journey that went on. That's the inside of my brain for you. Now I'm thinking Roald Dahl. And you know what? James and the Giant Peach. Peaches. Peaches. James and the Giant Peach is Roald Dahl, right? Yeah. Oh, I thought you said James and the Giant Peach is a real doll, right? And I said...
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Did you see the math going on? Yeah, it's Roald Dahl. Yeah, we're here. No, it is. We're here. We're here with you.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Yeah, it connects. It connects. Wait, Peach is here. At first, though, again, I misunderstood you. We're not getting back into it. I thought you said roll call. Roll call! Mikey! Present. I'm still big red. Yes. All right. Here we are. I love it. After that, the closet kept opening by itself overnight. No.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Hey weirdos, Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
I was going to say, if I was that mom, I think I would have like linebacker style tackled that woman to the ground. Honestly. What are your intentions?
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Let's just say I got a very stern lecture from my mom about not talking to strangers that day and never played out front of that house unsupervised ever again. No. Flash to 2009. Now I'm in high school and I live across town from where I grew up. I see that on the news, a little girl kidnapped in 1991 was held captive but found on the outskirts of California.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
What the fuck? Yeah. Yup. The woman I met that day, Nancy Garrido, I think it is. What the fuck? The kids I met, JC and her firstborn daughter, not her sister. I have... I'm without words. Without words. I'm without words. Can you imagine? No. And to know, one, to know that you, like, happened to have an experience where you, like, met her.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
And then, two, to realize that Nancy was trying to kidnap your ass, too. To add to the whole thing? Yeah. Oh, my God. And your mom is probably like, holy shit, that was just JC. Mm.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
yeah and your mom's like thank god i was paying attention yeah like mama ran out there and was like get the fuck off my property shit yeah i felt absolutely sick to my stomach to my fucking stomach watching the news this poor girl was trapped in hell my entire childhood only a few thousand feet from where i played and slept and lived every single day
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
wow my mom and i immediately looked up the address of where jc was found and saw that she was hidden only eight houses away from us on the corner the grief i felt that day was insurmountable knowing i saw her and i met her and her kidnapper as a child and never even knew it i can only guess now what might have happened to me if i had gone with that woman that day i'm so glad you didn't thank goodness
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Thanks for listening to my tale, and maybe later I'll write in about some other tales I have, like when I was subpoenaed to testify in front of a court as a witness for when I stopped a home invasion and accidentally broke up a crime ring in my neighborhood. Keep it weird. Much love, Devin. Devin, come on!
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
You gotta send us those tales! We got some stories, Devin! You're happy again! My goodness, I'm happy to hear it! Yeah! Holy shit, Devin! Crazy! That was crazy! I did not see that coming. That, like, shocked me. When I was reading it, I was like, wait, wait, what? What? Oh! Wow! Sorry, that just, like, ringed off, whatever. Damn. Damn. That's crazy, right? Alright, that's nuts. No! No!
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
jeremy's mind i can't believe you just did that to me you can't steal my salad fingers i gotta tuck them back in so they look more realistic if you had a rusty spoon i'd steal that i know i actually feel so fucking remiss i was gonna make a rusty spoon and then i just completely forgot that's okay it's not something you can just whip up in a minute you know what the rusty spoon is the friends we made along the way
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
I like that. Okay. Put that on my tombstone and never explain it to anyone. No context whatsoever. All right. So. The next listener tale is listener tales home invasions. Hello, firstly to Ash's cats, and secondly to you gorgeous, gorgeous gals. I'll tell them you said hi. My name is Molly. Okay, feel free to use all my names, all the names in the thing.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
I don't know, guys. It got fucking weird in here. Something's vibrating. Is it mom? It's my mom. We're in the middle of listener tales. Guys, you thought last time was weird. This time is even weirder. Because of this.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
You guys remind me of the lovely relationship between me and my sister, and you've even inspired us to begin percolating the idea of starting our own podcast. Do it! We both love spooky shit and have some truly hilarious banter. At least we think so. We think we do too. That's the whole reason we started this. That means that you're right. Yeah, you're funny.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
I'm not good at expressing my feelings according to my therapist. Neither is Elena. But want you to know that I think you are both badass, hilarious, intelligent human beings. Thank you. So are you. I hope to one day be as spooky and cool of a mom as you, Elena.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
I hope that too. That's really sweet. We share that, Molly. And get all the same scissor-wielding ghosts to fuck right off and leave my babies alone. I also hope to bring more of an ashtitude into my life and be unapologetically myself while being rocked to the people around me. Aww. I love you so much, Molly.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
You said, I love how supportive you've been of Alina's book, which I cannot wait to read. And you and Drew are the absolute cutest. Thank you. Her book is pretty all right. Oh my God. And she's pretty all right. tinyurl.com slash thebutcher. And except don't use that because it's not active anymore. Go to barnesandnoble.com. Oh, bitch, you have a whole website. There you go.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Anyway, attach our two double-spaced putifas for your reading pleasure. I won't bother apologizing for length because I already know what you're going to say. If you read one or both of these on the pod, TM, I will never stop bragging about every... Blah? Blah? Blah. She's broken. I broke. I will never stop bragging to everyone I know. Much love, Molly.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Today, we'll read the Home Invasion tale, and then guess what, Molly? You're going to be on back-to-back listener tales. It's true. You're coming back. We'll read New Orleans next month.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
hell yeah i've been doing admin so this one's called fuck kevin and not in the fun way i like that i like that a lot 2020 was a shit year for a lot of reasons one of those reasons is that it's the year that my apartment was broken into and robbed yes kevin is his real name and i'm comfortable using it because he was indeed caught arrested and convicted Kevin.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
By then, my then boyfriend, now husband, and I, congratulations. And I were out of town visiting my family and we left our precious cat children, Ari and Binks. Oh, I like that. Ari and Binks back at our apartment in Arlington, Vermont. Virginia. Virginia. Virginia. Sorry, I said Vermont.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Spoiler alert, no cats were harmed in the making of this listener tale. Thank you. We hired a cat sitter to come visit slash feed them once a day. We were supposed to come back home on a Friday, but made a fateful last-minute decision to stay an extra day and come home on Saturday instead.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Yeah, guys. So listener tales is weird now. Super weird. Listener tales is weird now. Listener tales is literally so weird. It's fun though. It's so fun. Because it's after Halloween. Yeah. And we still get to do fun stuff. It's still Halloween. Yeah, it's still Halloween in our hearts forever. I love this so much. I'm having a lot of fun. This is fun. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
At the time, I regretted this decision, but now am grateful for what we did, as it was the last time I saw my mom before she passed away unexpectedly from an undiagnosed heart condition. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Molly. That sucks. Yeah. We returned home on Saturday night, and my boyfriend commented that he thought the door was already unlocked when he stuck the key in.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
That's the scariest thing I've ever heard. I'd say, well, you go check the apartment. I have to go somewhere. It's been real. Bye. We brush this off because the lock was kind of janky, and he was probably mistaken. We drop our suitcases, and I give my kitty some reunion snuggles. My boyfriend comes rushing out of the bedroom and asks me if I'd moved a small box out of his desk drawer. I had not.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
And this is where the red flags started going up. We searched the apartment some more and noticed that a passport, checkbook, and other items were missing as well. That's really scary. To think that somebody has your passport, like that's horrifying. That'd be terrifying. The small box that my boyfriend was panicking over contained the diamond for my future engagement ring. I know.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Oh, he had not given it to me yet, and this is how I learned that he was going to propose. Imagine learning like that. That's so sad. I know. I plugged our cheap security camera into my laptop and started reviewing the footage. Video only, there was no audio. My heart dropped when I got to the footage from Friday night slash Saturday morning around 2 a.m.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
I can see Ari and Binks excitedly trotting up to the door as it began to open, thinking that mom and dad were finally home. No! I see their ears go back and their tails drop as they realize it's not us, and they turn around and sprint to find a hiding place. I see two unfamiliar dickhead men come through the door. Unfortunately, I can't see their faces because the camera was pointed to the floor.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
It was positioned that way because we bought it to keep an eye on the cats, never expecting that it would capture a robbery. I break out into tears and call my mom while my boyfriend calls the police. Two young women police officers show up shortly after, and I'm grateful to them to this day for how comforting and kind they were as they took our statements and dusted for fingerprints.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Side note, they used a black powder to dust for fingerprints, and Binx was very interested in what they were doing. I love that. He stepped in a pile of powder and left little black footprints all over the place. It was adorable. And to this day, he is known as Detective Binks. DT. Binks. On the case. Binks is on the case. Over the next few days, we barely slept. Honestly.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
I don't know how you would. That must be, like, the most, like, violating feeling. Absolutely. To think somebody, two unknown men were in your house.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
And have all your information. Yes. Like, I feel that's awful. Yeah. We barely slept, pushed furniture against the door at night, and patiently waited for the few and far between updates from police. My boyfriend coped in his way, denial, dealing with the logistics of insurance, etc. I coped in my own way, going full detective mode.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
The sight of the fear hitting my poor babies as they ran for cover was burned into my mind. Honestly, that would fuck me up too. Yeah. If someone upset my animals, I'd be so pissed. You could fight me with these salivators.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
You can mess with me. You can steal our shit, but you cannot fuck with my cats. Exactly. I reviewed the footage over and over, looking at every tiny detail. I noticed that the intruders picked up the note of instructions I'd left with the cat sitter, reading it to each other and laughing. Fuck you. So I was like, why is that funny? Why? Why would that be funny? And like, honestly. Hmm. Like what?
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Like what a dick. I reported this to the police and they came and collected the paper for evidence. I also noticed that my boyfriend had been right about the door being unlocked. I can clearly see the cat sitter leaving on Friday, shutting the door and not locking the deadbolt. FIRED!
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
I'm kind of nervous about getting this green paint off my face. I'm obviously nervous for you. Yeah, what happened was I got like a green powder makeup by accident and it worked like with water. I like mixed it and I was able to put it on my face. But then it wouldn't work on the bald cap because I didn't go actually bald for this look. I just, you know, put a bald cap on.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
She was suspected to be involved at first, but eventually determined to be simply incompetent and cleared by police. Sometimes that's even worse. Yeah, that really is. Innocent but incompetent? Oof. Oof. I obsessed over and messed with the footage enough to discover that there was, in fact, audio. Huzzah! Bitch. You are everything.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Hell yeah. It was staticky and hard to hear, and I listened over and over again with headphones to try to make out any clues. Finally, I saw one of the men walk over to the camera and can make out the following. Hey, Kevin, there's a camera here. Idiots. Not only did they drop names directly in front of the camera, but they also left it there instead of taking it. It's like, why would you do that?
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
I mean, I'm glad they did, but like, why would you do that? You gotta be a special kind of dumb. We sure do. The footage was on a micro SD card, so if they'd taken the camera, we would have had nothing to go off of. They unplugged the camera at that time, so we're not sure how long they were there or what else they did. Chilling. Very chilling.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
My hope is that they realized they fucked up and noped out of there immediately. I forwarded the audio to the detective assigned to our case and this is what finally allowed them to catch him. Turns out the cops had been following Kevin for several months connected to multiple other robberies of homes, schools, businesses, etc.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
They knew he was guilty, but until now they didn't have the hard evidence to convict him. Hell yeah. A warrant was put out, and Kevin was arrested for multiple felony robberies soon after. They searched his phone and found a conversation between him and some other shady character trying to pawn my diamond. Can you imagine? It was never found.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
We expect that he ditched it along with the other stolen items once he realized the police were on to him. Fuck that guy. Fortunately, my boyfriend is a genius and bought insurance for the diamond, so we got a replacement for free.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Seriously. You married, right? Yeah. We were both called to testify in court, and despite being totally hyped about getting on the stand, they did not question me, only my boyfriend. Dope. Total bummer. He doesn't even like true crime. There was also no citywide parade or official commendations for me to single-handedly solving the case, which I feel I deserved. You did.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
I also feel you deserved that. Should we have one retroactively? I think we should. Let's do it. Anyway, Kevin is in jail now, and though my sense of security in my home is forever damaged, we're doing okay. We moved into a new house back in my Pennsylvania hometown to be closer to my family after my mom passed. I spent far too much money on a home security system. Love you, Simply Safe.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Simply safe. But it's worth it for the peace of mind. We are now married and the cats are currently looking at burbs outside the window and enjoying the cool fall weather. Whether you read this or not, it was a cathartic to write it all down. I'm glad. Thank you for giving me and many others a safe space to share our stories. Molly. Molly, we love you.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
The same thing would have happened to me. Yeah, that would have freaked me the fuck out. Damn, Molly. I know, you went through it, girl. Shit. But I'm so glad that your man's got insurance on the ring. Yes. That was smart. He's a smart guy. Smart guy. He's a smart guy. Remember that? Smart guy. We're in the right era. I love it. We're staying in the right era. In the right era.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
She didn't commit, you know. Listen, I think I committed. You did. But...
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Oh, my nose is itchy. Era, era. That was funny. Sorry, my nose got itchy at a really inopportune time. there you go there you go all right my next one is from eli eli hello you wonderful ladies my name is eli you can use my name i've been listening since day one and have introduced all my or excuse me many family and friends to you lovelies so not all of them Not all of them? Not all of them?
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
you say you didn't i said you did oh i was like wow i'm feeling damaged like i feel like i did um but yeah so i'm um there's acrylic paint on top of my head is what i what i was gonna say and a little bit on her face so and neck we will see how this is going yeah we'll post photos of the aftermath you know we'll see if there's any kind of irritation happening i'm excited to see there's definitely irritation happening right here where it went
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
All right. Just kidding. We'll forgive you. It's okay. I'm so proud of all you two have accomplished in these last years. Thank you. You gals brought me so many laughs, so many tears, and even tears from laughing. I look forward to hearing new episodes every week. You are my podcast drug of choice. Aw. I love you, Hila. I know we love you. I am also a Massachusetts gal. More details to come.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Hell yeah. I'm not the greatest at writing, so please bear with me. You're actually really good at writing and really funny. I was crying when I read this of laughter. Of laughter. Of laughter. Without any more gushing, here's my tale of the time a demonic man parkoured his way into my apartment. I'm obsessed with this already.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
YOLO. Yeah. My apartment was on the first level, but there was an entire garden level below. Those are air quotes. I like that air quotes with the salad finger. You're welcome. Every apartment on the first level all the way up to the top level, which was I think eight, had these mini balconies off the living room.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
On this day, after staying up way too late playing video games, I decided to call it a night around 1 a.m., Ah, the before children days. I head to my bedroom and get ready for bed. Not more than a few seconds after I lay down, I hear this loud yelling coming from the alleyway between my building and the ones next to mine. Picture this alleyway like a sideways T-shape.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Looking out my window, there were two buildings and an alley between them, leading directly to my unit. The yelling was so disturbing. It was no spoken language I had ever heard of. It was seriously demonic. The voice was deep, raspy, but had this sharp edge to it, the type that would make you want to cover your ears. The words made absolutely no sense at all.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Now me, being the nosy ass bitch I am, I immediately jump out of bed and go peep out the curtains to see what the actual fuck is going on. Hell yeah, I would have done the same thing. If I hear a commotion, out the curtains I peek. Oh yeah, I'm gonna go vacuum the grass. Literally. I gotta know what's going on. I love those TikTok videos when people will start doing that. Sweeping the grass.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
I love it. Well, there's a man running down the alley toward my building. Uh-oh. He's waving his arms all over, but that is as much as I could make out. It was extremely dark, and there's minimal lighting in that area. As he's making his way toward the building, a car turns in the alley behind him. It had sirens, so clearly it was the police chasing said man.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
The entire time, he's shrieking this ungodly noise heading straight toward what seemed like me. Oh. Mm-hmm. Now at ground level, there's a small retaining wall. It's literally like three feet tall and he jumps on it and leaps up to grab the bottom of my balcony.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
no yes no yes did you shit your pants i would have because i would shit my pants eli says which by the way is a solid 15 to 20 feet up and i don't know if he was truly possessed or not but i shit you not he hoisted himself up like he was an olympic pole jumper without a pole what the fuck he just had like a 20 foot vertical like what's going on some street parkour american ninja warrior shit get that man a contract somewhere like what the hell
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
I ran right to my night table where I happened to have stashed an eight-inch blade in the drawer. Oh. Just casual things. That's Eli right there. And pull it out. Yeah. Just pull it out. Just pull it right out. Oh, just in case. I know I said I would mention this, but I'm from this wonderful little gem of a city called Brockton. Oh. Have you guys ever seen The Menu? Go watch The Menu.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Jeremy Fisher is Jeremy Fisher. And honestly, my thing was so easy to make, but I got this plumb bob. You know this plumb bob. From Bob the Builder on Etsy. I love that. So go check him out. He does cool stuff. He told me how to work it and stuff. So like Bob forever.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
I basically grew up in an area where you sleep with one eye open in nicer terms. Yeah. It's called the city of champions, but that's far from what it is.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
To any other Brocktonians, don't come for me. You know it's true. So knife welding me runs into... If you know Ickyick. Ickyick. If you know Brockton, you know. You know. Ickyibick.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
oh so knife wielding me runs into my living room as my balcony screen door opens and the inner door is being rammed on by this demon asshole yes this fucker is still chanting damn i know you're probably thinking hi don't run toward j toward danger but i don't know i just had this urge to stand my ground i'm not gonna get that urge you know yeah it just happens like i feel like standing my ground today yeah i just i'm gonna stand my ground sometimes it happens
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
And Eli says, I'm not going to be caught unprepared. That's right. The locks give out and the door crashes inward. No. The demon rushes in. He stops to look around and survey the situation. We lock eyes. Imagine if you were dressed like this. I looked at him. What if you were just like. Like, what if you just broke in and you were just like, hey, do you like rusty spoons?
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Honestly, best home security system ever. Right here. Always be salad fingers at every moment. Because if somebody breaks in and you just rise out of bed and just say, I like rusty spoons.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
They're going to get the fuck out of there. Like, they're going to get the fuck. If you sit up and say, it's almost time. orgasmic feeling of rust against my salad fingers. Yeah, they'll leave. Yeah, it's true. Well, we'll tip from us to you. Safety tips. Well, la la la la la. I said to him while holding the knife, don't fucking try me. Oh. That's Eli right there. That's Eli.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
That's my Eli right there. City of champions, Eli. Eli's the whole city. Yep, Eli knows. His screaming had come to a halt, and it was so fucking weirdly quiet. He looked at the front door, looked at me, the front door, me, and finally vaults over my coffee table to the front door, fumbles with the lock, gets it open, and runs into the building hallway. He said, fuck that. He said, fuck that.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
But then resumes his demonic murder screaming again. Yeah, he took a little pause. Yeah. Surveyed the situation and then was like, I'll continue out here. They were words, but not. It's seriously hard to explain, but terrifying. Oh, I wish you had audio. Why didn't you get audio? Come on, Eli. Audio or it didn't happen.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
This entire thing was only like six seconds tops, but in the moment it felt like forever. Now this would be the perfect time for me to shut my door, lock it, and crumble into a sob, but nah, girl. I ran out into the hallway after him. Like, who's paying for my broken door? Oh.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
ladies ladies i don't know why i felt like xena warrior princess some amazonian badass bitch when the reality was a 21 year old puerto rican five three thick and out of shape i'm obsessed with you i love you eli for life you just wait the end of this tale i was crying i was crying at this point but then i started sobbing at the next part The demon runs straight into the officers that yoke him up.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
uh i'm gonna be starting yeah this listener tales experience here let's go brother let's go um so this one i should probably go back and tell you what it's actually called yeah that's kind of the whole thing it's a little hard okay this one's called listener tale it's more of a yoink than a yeet listener tale this one is very funny and i like that a lot
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
One officer runs to me. He looks me up and down and at my knife, which I immediately place on the ground and held my hands up like I was the criminal or something. He ushers me into my apartment to make sure I'm okay and to get me out of the hallway as some neighbors had begun opening their doors to see what was happening. Hey, did I mention I was only wearing red panties?
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Eli. So Eli had their own. Eli. Eli had their own security system in place.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Your yabos saved you. Your yabos. I'm so. We love your yabos. We love them. We love them. I mean, listen. It was bedtime. Did I mention I was only wearing red titties? Oh, by the way, did I mention my coconut titties were flattened?
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
The fact that this demon motherfucker came walking and, like, busting through your house like the Kool-Aid man, and you're standing there in red underwear holding an 8-inch knife, and you just said, like, don't even fucking try me.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
queen he said queen he said i will not get her a goddamn crown you are a warrior princess you are in asterix after covering my goodies with a throw blanket the officer takes a small statement from me helps get the door back in place offers to bring me to a friend's all that stuff but i told him i was fine i'd be okay yeah we're good so he left i paced my living room for a few more minutes trying to get my heart rate to slow the fuck down and finally go into my room and get into bed
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Here's the best part of this entire fucking crazy story. We haven't reached the best part? No. My mans rolls over and puts his arm around me and says, what language was that? I am laughing so hard typing this part. Yes, ladies, this motherfucking country boy that grew up in the middle of nowhere kept his grown ass man self in bed. In bed.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
While I'm fucking knife wielding samurai and keeping us safe. My response to him? No idea, but I think it was satanic. While he blissfully went back to snoring. The fact that he just rolled over and was like, what language was that? What are you even saying? And where were you? And where were you?
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
fucking wall like what hello he just broke our front door down damn damn me lie i knew from that day on if we ever had a family and shit went down i'd have to be the one to protect us yeah eli for life but that's all for my story of my thick ass naked hispanic lady face off first parkour demon parkour demonic banshee man i didn't die so that's a bonus
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Thank you so much for reading. I grew up in the Bridgewater Triangle and currently live back here raising my little family. I got lots of spooky and scary stories I could share, including my dad almost being murdered in front of me. The amount of blood will forever be a memory I can't forget. Oh, Brockton. Or that wasn't me. That was Eli.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Or when my mom's cousin came over and asked what dress she should wear if she died, when in fact, she actually had died the day before and was wearing said dress my mom picked out at the funeral days later. Or the time my friends and I got attacked in the woods by a group of men and had to ask for help from a nudist colony. Yeah, I have some tales. Send us all of them.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
One puttafa. I'm not kidding you. Tail one, tail two, tail three, tail four.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
All the tails. Every tail. It's the holiday season. Yeah, give us so we can take it. I want a full puttafa. I want a whole, I want a bag full like this of those tails. An Eli episode. An Eli episode. We'll do a whole episode on Eli. Yeah. Send us all those tales. Threaten me with a good time.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
uh let's see i'm gonna open it up oh yeah also we went with like a home invasions kind of um theme and like kidnapping sort of because it's like your thing i don't i know you're not a kidnapper no you're kind of a kidnapper you put kids in ovens i know you're right so i just didn't want to talk about it here and now sorry i never got caught i never got caught
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Well, keep it weird, ladies. I hope to attend a live show in the future. Peace out and love always, Eli. Eli? Eli. For fucking life. For life. Eli for life. Damn, Eli. That was amazing. So those were our home invasion. That's my computer. That's my whole computer.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
She doesn't have a burglar alarm. If you installed one, this wouldn't happen.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
You're ridiculous. Sims 1 players will know. Only Sims 1 players in these streets will know that. I love doing video listener tales so much. Just the fact that, what day is today? Is it a Wednesday? Yeah, it's just a Wednesday. It's just a fucking Wednesday. I sent this to my family group chat and they were like, this is amazing. Like, what?
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
And I was like, yeah, sometimes it's hard to explain what my job is. Yeah, I came out of the room for a second and John was like, oh, just... Just working. Just going to work. I love it. I was like, what? And that's because of you guys. And we're hella thankful for you.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
We love you. We want to smooch your faces. We do. I want to steal your faces. We neglect it. Don't steal their faces. That's fucking terrifying. That's what I do. I want to steal your face. You're like the queen from fucking... What's that movie that you won't let your kids watch and they want to watch it so bad? Oh, Return to Oz. Yeah. Queen Mosby. Princess Momby. I was so close.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
No, I wasn't there either. I was on a Suite Life of Zack and Cody, Mr. Mosby thing. Oh, there you go. That's where I was. Princess Momby. Momby. Yeah. Freaky. I just think it's weird that you're going to steal their faces. But we neglected to mention that this is Thanksgiving today. Oh, it is Thanksgiving while you're watching this. So, you know, we're thankful for you and happy Thanksgiving.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
We can leave it in. I have something. Fuck it. I'm real. I have something that I'm going to do on Thanksgiving and I'll show you. I like that. On Thanksgiving I'll show you. I like that a lot. I'm going to dress like this at Thanksgiving just to be provocative.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Right? Yeah. That provokes emotion. Yeah. Doesn't it? Absolutely. It's very provocative. I think it does. You can't see me. I'm salad fingers. Well, we love you. And we love doing this. We hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you don't have salad for fingers.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
all right so it says picture it the summer of 1977 in a suburb of chicago called cicero cicero famous for being the home of the gangster al capone that's pretty bad that is really badass scary but badass yeah um this also has a picture of sophia from the golden girls on the phone of course like picture it the summer of 1977. The heat and humidity of the day simmering off the asphalt.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
In a small, there it is, there you go. In a small brick bungalow style home, my mother sauntered about in the stagnant heat of the kitchen. Her youngest sat upon her hip, moi. The child, so angelic and small, was only months old. Her strawberry red hair plastered to her absolutely adorable and wittle head. Poetic license will be used and most likely abused.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
in the basement of this bungalow was the rest of the schmucks and staff or i mean my siblings my sister coco nine at the time my brother benny 10 joe 8 rodrigo 7 and bobby 5 they played about in the coolest spot in the house without a care in the world wreaking havoc amongst each other because kids am i right you're right you are right oh and also because boys they do be rambunctious and
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Any whoozle, as they played about in the basement and unbeknownst to my mother, a man creeped in behind. This is horrifying. Yeah. A man creeped in between the narrow walkway between our home and the neighbors. He stopped at the small window, a window barely any bigger than a doggy door that sat at ground level peering into the basement. He beat on the window until breaking the glass door.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Not the glass. Like there's children in there. I think that's kind of his objective. I hate that. I know. I hate him for that. I do too. Near that window was little Bobby. Not little Bobby. Not little Bobby. Bobby. Standing there with his little root beer belly, chubby cheeks, his dark hair growing darker with sweat. The man reached in and yoinked him out of the basement. Yoink. And into the oven.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Bye bye, little Bobby. Bye bye. I didn't say that. Coco, Benny, Joe and Rodrigo ran upstairs to the kitchen. They reached my mom, started pulling on her shirt. Mom, mom. They started yelling. He grabbed Bobby. He grabbed Bobby. He pulled him out the window. Here's the thing. I would have died if I was that mother. Yeah, on impact. Your kids run up to you and say he grabbed Bobby.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
He grabbed Bobby. He pulled him out the window. Dead. How do you react to that? She throws the baby and goes to get the Bob. Holy shit. My mother, obviously in shock, handed the golden child to me. The beautiful little baby so sweet and innocent to her sister, Coco, and went down to the basement to see the destruction for herself, not quite believing what she heard.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
As the kids said, the window was broken with only small shards still. Small shards. Only small shards. Only small chards. What is it? Chards? Shards?
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
it's shards it's shards correctly yeah okay it's like small shards i don't know why that sounded so wrong in my head still sticking inside the frame the police were called and alerted to the situation i'm horrified for your entire family very scary as everyone went outside to wait for the police my brothers pointed to the elderly neighbor sitting in the backyard rocking away on his glider while drinking mommy he is the man who took bobby
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
No. Just went across the street? No. Next to the elderly neighbor was a little dark-haired boy with his own drink. It's Bobby. What the fuck is going on here? Hello? What is going on? If you guessed that it was my brother sitting with the neighbor, you would be correct.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
And I'm the really terrifying and traumatizing burglar from Sims 1.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
The elderly neighbor was lonely and just wanted to share a beer and a chat with someone. I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm sorry, no. He wasn't all there. No. Yeah. No. His family was located and called to help. His son arrived and was very apologetic. Eventually, our neighbor was placed in a nursing home to get the 24-7 care he needed and all was well again. That is so sad. I know. And so horrifying.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
It's so sad on so many levels because, um, childhood trauma immediately for Bobby. And then, like, obviously that neighbor, like, wasn't all there. Didn't mean any harm. But, like... Holy shit. Yeah. Even though there was still glass left in the frame, little Bobby was not injured at all. In my best Keith Morrison impression, I don't see Bobby drinking much beer.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Could it be because of this incident? Could it be because he prefers the harder stuff? We'll never know. To this day, my siblings still refuse to answer the question of, did he really reach down and grab him, or did you all just lift him up as an offering? I love that. I love it so. I love that. It's so good. That's a good one. I like that one. And can I say your name? You may use my name, April.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
April. Thank you for that, April. I didn't want to call you out if I couldn't. April, we love you. April, that was a good one. And horrifying. Horrifying, but like had a happy ending. It did. And it was funny. Yeah, exactly. So I like that one. All right. My next one is, I think I can say your name. Yeah, I can. Okay. So this is the time I almost had a play date with a kidnapper. I hate this.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
and we love them so much and i've been hooked ever since my name is devin and yes you can use my name hey devin hey devin what's up devin how are you this story takes place in the good old early 90s hell yeah when kids like me often ran around unsupervised outside and i was usually barefoot my family didn't have a lot of money i lived in a small rented house on the outskirts of anatalk i think it is
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
I like it. Antioch. Somewhere in California. I just said California. I have to go. We're struggling. We really are. It's kind of late. All right. You lived in California. Then small city about 30 miles outside of San Francisco in the East Bay.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
It was seemingly a normal summer afternoon, and being the oldest child with an infant sibling to entertain me, I was playing out front of my house alone. My family... Sorry, I need to zoom in because I'm literally blind. It's who I am.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Oh, that sounds lovely. It's gorgeous. Gorgeous. um the yard was enclosed in a giant cast iron gate thank god more on that soon oh it had ivy stretching up around it and it smelled of fresh herbs in the summer evenings that's gorgeous and beautiful and lovely you're setting a scene definitely it says my mother was just in or sorry it why can't i do this You know? I don't know.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Sometimes it's hard. You became a different thing today. I did. That's a lot. Yeah, this isn't Salad Fingers first. This is Salad Fingers first rodeo. It is. So give them a minute.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
All right. This says, my mother was just inside caring for my sister when this story occurred. I was sitting in the grass playing with one of those cheap balls you see at the grocery store in those giant bins that you either... Oh, hell yeah. Wanted to climb into as a kid or throw balls over the top of. You know what I'm talking about. Absolutely, I do. I still love those.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
I always just picture somebody taking a ball from like the inside or the inside like bottom and then everything just like plummeting down. Tumbling down. Bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop. Yep. I love it. It was common for people to walk by my house. There was a small cafe up the road on the corner, and many people from our neighborhood frequented it.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
My house also backed up to two separate cemeteries, and I spent a lot of time getting to know each person buried in them. But that's a story for another time. Devin. That's a story for right now, Devin. Yeah, Devin, that's always a story for right now. Come on. I love that story. I love that.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
I wasn't in the front yard long when I noticed a strange woman accompanied by a blonde girl a bit older than myself walk by with a small child in the stroller. I was immediately intrigued. Another child in the neighborhood? I didn't know them, but I was desperate to have somebody else to play with.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
the woman sees my interest and stops in front of the gate to my house this startles me as i was taught stranger danger like everybody else however the woman seemed okay and she had kids with her how bad could she be i was taught that if i was ever lost to find a policeman or another mom with kids so this mom couldn't be bad i wandered over to the gate oh no the woman asked me my name and asked if i lived there i said yes and looked to the other kids the older girl did not look at me one time
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
This immediately threw up alarm bells in my head, even as a kid. So much so that I remember this encounter to this day. Oh, I'm so nervous. Yeah, something was wrong, and even my small child brain knew it. The woman then asked if I wanted to go play with my ball with her daughters. No. No. No. No. No.
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
i don't like this she's upset the plumb bob i don't like this at all no no no i'm mad maybe sensing my concern the woman asked if i wanted to set up a play date and asked if my parents were around she quickly looked over to me and around toward the house it was then thankfully that my mom rushed outside and yelled at me to get away from the fence yeah get the fuck away from her yeah
Morbid
Episode 622: Listener Tales 92
Get away from that cuckoo lady. I backed away, releasing myself from the woman's grip, and ran to my mom. Without even another word, the woman and the girls quickly walked down the street, pushing the stroller out of sight, and I don't remember ever seeing them again. But the story's not over.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Mac forward. It was when we did the Andrew McMahon episode and I realized that literally the entire episode, I'm just like this.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Oh, that's so dumb. That is dumb. All right. My name is Lisa. Feel free to use my name. Lisa. Lisa. You're really funny today.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I like that guy. Yeah. Like, he was just motioned. Can you do that again? Yes. And that was, like, the straight-up charades.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I'm crying. It's Boots. Something about sugar kicking too. It's funny. Boots the house down. All right. Oh my goodness. Not too long after that. Oh my Joseph. Oh my Joseph. And his Boots.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Then it was a crumb. A wee little crumb. Little crumb. A little crumb.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
if you stand at the front of the school you're greeted by a split level along with a very along with a very ripped jesus on the cross a very ripped jesus jesus says can you spot me one set of stairs goes up to the classroom do you even lift bro Imagine Jesus looking at you and saying, do you even lift, bro? Iconic.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
We can do whatever we want because it's our show. We're going to do that.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
This is Marvin Lesson or Tale. Brought to you by you, for you, from you, and all about you.
Morbid
Episode 631: Case Revisit: The Lady of the Dunes
It is. Nothing ever happens. It's a quiet New England town. But it is.
Morbid
Episode 631: Case Revisit: The Lady of the Dunes
I mean, you'll definitely try to get them out.
Morbid
Episode 631: Case Revisit: The Lady of the Dunes
At approximately 9 o'clock this morning, as law enforcement was moving through various sectors of the property, an individual, without warning, shot a Georgia State Patrol trooper.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
Hey weirdos, Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
You can understand why that group thing can happen. I mean, you see it happen. All the time. And you never think it could happen to you, but... Yep, it can.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
Yeah. That's just an echo chamber of delusion and paranoia. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
There's a certain weirdo. It's where you put that emphasis on it, I feel like. They were weirdos. That's bad.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
I'd be like, that's your business? You want to keep people out? Yeah. That's your choice? I'd be so nervous. But that's the thing. I would be like, you go off. Go off. Like, I get it. Keep everyone out. A lot of people suck. Yeah. But this would make me nervous. It would not make me feel like you were someone that was okay to be around. Like, I'd feel like you were a dangerous person.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
I feel like you were unsafe. It's the paranoia for me. I think that's where it takes me is, like, the paranoia takes me into, like, you might be unhinged. Yes, definitely. You know, that goes past having, like, a gate or, like, a security system.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
Face against fence. You're making a big stink of keeping it private. I want to know what it is. I need to know.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
Was anybody calling anybody? I don't know. I don't know what you would say, really, because I don't know if they're doing anything wrong. Like, I don't know if they're adhering to noise regulations. I mean, were there noise regulations in the 80s? Probably not. I don't know. I don't know when that shit starts. I'm not sure. I just, I'm like... I don't know.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
Don't start digging big holes in your backyard unless you have like something like a pool that's going to go in there.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
You know, like something that you can show after and be like, this is why we did that. Yeah, come on over, swim in our pool. And not even just like see that.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
Like no, don't come over. But here, you know that big hole I was digging that made you all nervous? This is what that was for. Don't come over. You're not welcome, but that's what that was for.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
Yeah, you get the fuck out of there. That is no place for a child.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
Manny Delgado is the name of Jay and what's her name's son in Modern Family.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
I thought that Jay and Gloria. I almost said Julia. I couldn't think of it. I thought that too. Manny Delgado. As soon as you said that, I was like.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
I guess valid criminal thinking, you know, I guess so. Not rational thinking.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
I made sure she was okay. Yeah. Through laughs, I made sure she was okay. No, that's fair. But there was a whole shit ton of people in that stairwell. Oh my God.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
Damn. Sure. The amount of people in this story that are just like, you know what? We might as well rob a bank. I've never been in a place where somebody would say, do you want to go rob something? And I'm like, well, I don't have anything else going on. I have no plans that day. I've been bored. I've been in a place where I didn't have a lot going on. I've been bored.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
Thank you to the people of Boston. Thank you to the people who were at the TD Bank Garden last night at the Celtics game. We all suffered together. Because Boston. And then you guys did us a solid. Yes. And you did not ask Ash if she was okay. You just cleared the fuck out of that stairwell.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
Did anyone at that first gun store say, huh? They're coming in a lot and buying a lot of guns. I would think so. No one was sitting there being like, what you doing? Yeah. Maybe keep an eye on that person. I'm not sure. Because like what business do you have coming in getting that much shit weeks apart? It's very strange.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
The fact that no one was concerned about this is disconcerting to me. Yeah, you would say so.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
I looked around and I said, wow, everyone cleared out. And then I said, are you okay? And she was holding her mouth and I said, if you spit out a tooth, I'm going to ask you to put that back in so we can see the playoffs. And I would have. But she wasn't. She wasn't missing a tooth. She wasn't bleeding. But it was one of those falls that's like slow motion. And I said, oh. She's going.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
So that's his plan. It's also crazy that there's four of them going into this bank because it's like the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Good point, dude. Like, I wonder if they planned that. I know, because you would think four people is like too many. Yeah, it feels like way too many cooks in the kitchen here.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
That feels like the first day of freshman year of bank robber school. They tell you the number one. Hi, welcome to bank robber school. We're going to tell you something that we think you don't need to know. Yeah. Don't rob your own bank. Yep. They have literally all your information. All your information.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
And then I had no time, even though it was slow motion, I had no time to do anything about it.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
It was because then once her hands hit the ground, she, the momentum just took her into like, you know, kind of like a crow pose. Like a...
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
Like a non-consensual crow pose that she did not intend to go into. But then her face hit floor instead of yoga mat.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
It was an omen for the game. I know. Because, you know, some of them did their best. Yeah. I think they all did their best. I think it was just an off night. But that's okay. Because, I mean, for all the non-sports people, we're just in the second round of the playoffs. We're playing the New York Knicks, which, like, rivalry.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
So anytime I saw a Knicks player pop up to any of our listeners who are Knicks fans, any of our listeners who are Knicks fans, like, we're in a fight.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
Yeah. Anytime I saw one of them pop up to cheer, I was like, sit the fuck down. But it's okay. We had a blast. It's so much fun. I hope Chris stops Porzingis feels better because that's my favorite player and he got sick. I hope they play Pritchard more next fucking game because they should have. It was sad. It was sad. I knew he was sick. I know him. I know him. I know Kristaps.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
Literally brilliant. It is. Just, I mean, like self-preservation wise, that is, and also you're- You're saving other people. Saving a lot of people in that area by just being like, you know what?
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
This is probably what you want. So you can take it, let the police deal with it, and we're all safe now. Yup. So good for him. Yeah. Good for him.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
He assessed on a roof. On a roof. He assessed the situation. He said, I got what they want. And he just said, bye. And then he just went on a roof. Smart. I would go on a roof. He's safe. Everyone else is safe. Good job.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
But I know him. My old friend, Kristaps. As soon as he came out, I said, uh-oh, he's sweaty. And he was sick. So hopefully he's better for game two because we need him. I think it's just a tummy thing. I think it was a tummy thing.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
That team, don't worry, we'll stray away from this because I'm sure a lot of people are like, I don't give a shit. The Celtics team is just like a really likable group of dudes. No, they are. And they all volunteer at Boston Children's Hospital, and they protest for great things. They're a likable group of dudes, so they're easy to love. We'll keep them.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
With that many counts, you assume a lot are going to fall off.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
And also that they put themselves in this position where they could easily have been killed. To survive. To survive. Because they didn't want to die. Yep. Like, make it make sense. It's a truly fascinating case. And that they, I don't, there's not one part of me that believes that that was a simple reason for this.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
Because if it was simply that, they would have done what every other bank robbery was doing at the time. Right. Run in there, get the money, run out, and go hide somewhere with your money. I think they were looking for... They went so far. I think they wanted to cause chaos. I think so, too. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
You remember that name. Absolutely, you do. But, yeah, fuck those guys. Fuck them. Fuck those guys.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
No, it's okay. Not everybody's heard of everything. Thank you so much. I've heard of the term, I've heard of like that, the Norco shootout.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
I did not know any of the details of this, so I am in the same boat as you. Okay, I'm so happy to hear that. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
So I didn't even know I was getting into it. I was ignorant to that.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
It does. It just like when you said that, I was like, yeah, that's the only other reason you would do that.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
It was straight up called the Jesus Movement. Yeah, you know, that really sells you on what it is.
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
No, I looked into it a little bit when we were interviewing Tobias Forge. Yes. Because like... Why not?
Morbid
Episode 674: The Norco Shootout
Which is a little creepy because it's like they had the same idea, just different methods of getting there. Yeah. Basically. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Hey, weirdos. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about a place where the darkness never ends. Wondery Plus. It's like stepping into a haunted mansion where the floorboards creak with ad-free episodes and early access to new episodes lurks around every corner. So come join us if you dare. Morbid is available one week early and ad-free only on Wondery Plus.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Rick had picked up Cindy, and they were headed out to Point Reyes to kind of check out the area.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
See where they were going to be staying. Yeah. So later that afternoon, they were shopping in that area, and another couple saw them at a bookstore in town. Then they were seen a little bit later than that by two hikers, Sharon Melnick and Larry Drapkin. They saw them on Bear Valley Trail. A little later, Melnick and Drapkin were hiking when they heard a succession of loud booms.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Later, they said they sounded like noises in rapid succession from a backfiring motorcycle. But they couldn't really tell where it was coming from. They were having trouble pinpointing it. Because sometimes when you're...
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
in an area like that yeah sounds sound like they're coming from either one place when it's a totally opposite one or they sound like they're coming from everywhere even certain sounds i feel like do that like yeah we'll be watching tv sometimes and it's a sound on tv that sounds like it's coming from like the back of our house yes that happens to us all the time too i'll i think it's the girls like coming down or like ask yelling my name or something and we'll always be pausing and like listening or going upstairs there's so many times where i'm like was that our alarm yeah i'm like what the fuck was that yeah
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
So that evening, Rick and Cindy had plans to meet Cindy's sister, Alice, for dinner. And when they didn't show up, she got very worried. And around 9 p.m., she called her brother and explained the situation. But he was like, I don't know, don't overreact. He was like, maybe wait until tomorrow, see if Cindy shows up for work. Which I was like, okay. I don't really understand that.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
But Alice said Cindy was supposed to work at her job on Sunday morning. I was a little overprotective, I think, and I didn't want to worry anyone. Which, like, I get that. But the next day, Cindy didn't show up to work, and she wasn't heard from from anybody. So Alice and the rest of the family started taking everything a little more seriously, and they reported both of them missing.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
A few days later, on October 15th, a third body of a murdered woman was discovered on Mount Tam. Damn. A research scientist and former Peace Corps consultant, 26-year-old Ann Alderson. So she was visiting her parents in San Rafael over the holiday weekend when on October 13th, she just decided to go for a solo hike on Mount Tam.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
So she was literally visiting. Like, wouldn't have been there otherwise. And again, a research scientist and Peace Corps consultant. That's crazy. Like, come on. So she had just wanted to go out for a solo hike on Mount Tam, and days later, a witness named John Henry told police he'd seen Anne sitting alone in the amphitheater around 5 p.m.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
and had considered warning her about the recent attacks that had occurred on the mountain. He just wanted to be like, you should just be a little careful here.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
He said, but she was so deep in introspection, I didn't want to bother or scare her. Oh, man. Yeah. So Anne was one of two people that Henry saw on the mountain that day. He also saw a man in the parking lot. He later said he was just hanging around. He was in his late 40s, early 50s, but there was something different about him.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
He was simply standing there all but motionless and wearing street clothing, slacks, and a Hawaiian-like shirt. The man would later be identified as David Carpenter.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
The next day, two park rangers were out on the mountain looking for some wild Ridgeback hogs that had been spotted in the area when they received an APB about a young woman, Ann Alderson, who had gone missing on the mountain. According to the bulletin, Ann had told her parents she'd be back by six that night, but they waited until the following day to report her missing.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Search and rescue teams, along with family and friends, had combed the mountain that night looking for Anne, but found no sign of her. It wasn't until the next day, October 15th, that Anne's body was discovered in an area of overgrowth, about a quarter mile from the amphitheater where she had last been seen by John Henry. Oh, that's awful.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Unlike the other two victims, none of Anne's clothing or jewelry had been taken, except for one gold earring. Yeah. That's so chilling. She had been sexually assaulted, and the cause of death was a gunshot wound to the right side of her head. And it was from a, quote, high-powered weapon, like a rifle.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Although she was clothed when her body was discovered, investigators believe that her attacker redressed her after, so she was undressed and redressed. That's even scarier. Yeah. That afternoon, the sheriff's department shut down Mount Tam to the public, and detectives searched the area for evidence and found, among other things, a metal fragment from the bullet jacket and Ann's underwear.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
which appeared to contain semen that the investigators believed was likely left by her killer. Right. Although DNA testing was obviously not available at the time, this sample was analyzed by lab technicians and determined to be, quote, a type consistent with about 6% to 8% of the general population. Well, at least that's small. That's a small portion. Something, but it's like, ugh.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Now, on December 2nd, 1980, about six weeks after Anne's murder, Teams of park rangers were searching the mountain looking for 25-year-old Shauna May and 22-year-old Diane O'Connell, who had been reported missing a few days earlier. My God. So many missing people. So they're looking for Shauna May and Diane O'Connell, and they made a horrific discovery.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
oh yeah i don't think um i mean we got we got some good stuff happening but it's in the background and will be something you guys know about in a little while yeah like like months but like well but be psyched about that yeah it's pretty cool my water is loud
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
So O'Connell and May had gone out for a walk along the national seashore at Point Reyes on November 28th. And when they failed to return home that afternoon, they were tourists, so people were like, where the fuck would they have gone? Right. They were immediately reported missing. It was in a heavily wooded and sparsely traveled area on Mount Tam where they were found.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
They were both, unfortunately, murdered. They were nude and had been shot in the head, both of them. Gosh. Based on the initial evaluation, it looked like Diane O'Connell had been strangled by, quote, something like a narrow piece of cord of wire. And a pair of women's underwear had been shoved in her mouth.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
There was no evidence to indicate that O'Connell had been raped. Shauna May, on the other hand, had been sexually assaulted before being shot, and there were ligature marks around one of her wrists, which indicated she had been bound at some point. Yeah. Now, the discovery of two more murder victims on Mount Tam was bad enough.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
But less than an hour later, rangers discovered the decomposed remains of Cindy Moreland and Rick Stowers, about 200 yards from where they found O'Connell and May.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Both bodies were found lying face down in what appeared to be a shallow, very crudely dug grave. Bullet wounds were in both of the back of their heads. They had been in the woods for about seven weeks at this point. So they had undergone a lot of decomposition. And Cindy's remains had to be identified through dental records. That's always so sad. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
When they left Moreland's house on the day they went missing, neither Cindy nor Rick had said anything about going hiking. That's the problem. So when they were reported missing, they just never thought to look in the area of Mount Tam because no one knew they were hiking. Right. It was like a... It was just like a spontaneous thing. Now, the body count now is at seven. Jesus.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
And the sheriff's office finally started, you know, we're like, you know what? I think there is one killer that's responsible for all these victims. It doesn't feel like... Just a coincidence. Right. Sheriff Al Hallenstein told reporters the two most recent victims may have been slain by the killer to draw attention to the earlier killings.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
He said, we're looking, we believe, at an individual who has strong feelings about women. And he also said sometimes the slayer can control his feelings and other times he cannot. I could see that. When you think of it, like he killed Diane O'Connell and Shauna May. Just to draw attention because he left them right, he did it and left them right near where Rick and Cindy were. Right.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
For him to do that just so that they, to be like, oh, you haven't found them yet. Right. So I'll just take two other people's lives. Like that is so fucking chilling. That line of thinking is just. That's so chilling.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
And it's very him. Yeah. So the news that there was yet another serial killer, because remember, we're in that time period and in that place, that location, where serial killers were running a fucking muck around here. They were confusing the cases, confusing the victims. Like, they were overlapping. They were working in the same kind of areas. It was a wild time period.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
I can't imagine being in this place in the United States at this time. Especially as a woman. I really can't imagine it. No. Horrifying. So just the news that there was yet another one of these assholes operating in the San Francisco area was met with a lot of justifiable fear and anxiety from residents.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Hauenstein said in a warning to the residents in the area, without question, this individual is capable of striking again, which must have been horrifying to hear.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
It's cool stuff happening that we'll let you know about. Don't worry. Soon enough. It's like the Tobias thing. Don't worry. You'll find out. Yeah. We'll always tell you.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
He said he commits his acts in an effort to achieve psychological relief, but the murders will not satisfy him and the problem will get worse. And in the same statement, he released a sketch of the man they believe was responsible. And he was described as, quote, a clean-cut man in his late 20s or early 30s, dressed in hiking clothes with a knapsack on his back.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
And according to witness statements, he's beginning to fall apart psychologically. And so Hauenstein said, hikers especially remain vigilant and do not go on solo hikes.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
yeah like no more solo hiking everybody but it's what's even worse is you're not safe even with two well yeah because look cindy and rick work together cindy and rick and diane and shauna yeah and like you do inherently i think as a woman sometimes feel a little bit you hope more defended when you're with like a man but that didn't even matter either yeah like that's very genuinely scary it's horrifying
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Now, investigators checked the local sex offender registry for anyone who might match these descriptions, but because Carpenter was still technically a federal prisoner on probation, he was not yet required to sign up for the registry, and so he hadn't.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Agreed. Like, what? Another fail.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Also, at the time, this is even worse, at the time, California's sex offender registry program was woefully underfunded. Really? And overworked. And it was run by three people, that department. What? Yeah. It lacked even the basic resources to operate as a department, much less staff.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
operate as like a functional arm of law enforcement like three people are having to deal with all this insane so the fact that he fell through the cracks in that scenario not surprising at all awful i would have been surprised if they actually found him on the registry truly now as for david carpenter the sheriff was more or less kind of accurate with what he said he was starting to fall apart psychologically or you know he was becoming more reckless at the very least
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Now, on March 29th, 1981, 20-year-old Ellen Hansen and her boyfriend, Stephen Haerdel, were camping near Henry Cowell Park in Santa Cruz, not far from Point Reyes. This was a popular area at the time, and it had about 90 other campers on site at the time. If Henry Cowell Park in Santa Cruz sounds a little familiar. It did.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
This is the same camping area that Herbert Mullen took solitary hikes in and brutally ended up murdering 18-year-old David Oliker, 18-year-old Robert Spector, 19-year-old Brian Scott Card, and 15-year-old Mark Drabelbis in their tent. Oh, wow. So this is the same place. And around the same time. Yep. And this is where Ellen Hansen and her boyfriend Stephen Haerdel were camping. Oh, man.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
So that morning, Hansen and Hertel woke up early and went for a walk along the beach. For much of the walk, they were alone, but eventually Steve spotted another person on the beach. This was a man wearing what looked to be a backpack and very heavy bifocal glasses.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
So as they got closer, Steve and Ellen could hear what Steve later described as, quote, shuffling steps and then heavy breathing and cursing. Oh. But they thought, like, whatever. And they just kind of, like, because they were walking towards each other but, like, going past each other.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
So he said they nodded a hello. He did, too. Yeah. And then they just kept walking. Now, later that afternoon, and nothing came of that. Yeah. So they were just like, whatever. Later that afternoon, Steve and Ellen ran into that same man from the beach again. This time, while they were hiking Ridge Trail on Mount Tam. When he saw them, he said, oh, I see we run into each other again.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
So they just kind of were like, huh, yeah, like weird. And then as they're being like, oh, yeah, that's like funny. As they're saying that, he reached into the waistband of his pants and produced a revolver. Can you imagine? You just see this man again. And he's like, oh, funny we run into each other again. And you're like, yeah, and he just puts a gun in your face.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
I'm trying to think of any other updates that could be coming your way. I can't think of anything right now.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Like, why did I cross this man's path again? Now, at the time, Steve was fixated on the man's hands, which he later described as extraordinarily white and clean, which is strange. Huh. He also noticed the strange way that the man was holding the gun. He said it was like very specific. He said he had pulled back the hammer, but had his thumb between the hammer and the firing pin.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Yeah. So if the hammer slipped, it would hit his thumb rather than discharging a bullet too. Right. Like, which is strange. The man said, if you don't want to get hurt, do what I say. Put your hands on your head and you won't get hurt. So he was like, this is weird. So he's thinking we're just being robbed. Because he also, him putting his finger, his thumb between that.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Probably disarmed him a little bit. Probably made him think like, okay, even if he pulls the trigger, we're not being fired at. So to me, that would probably make me be like, okay, this guy's bluffing. Right. Like, this is fucked up.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
And I think that's why Steve was like, okay, I think he's just robbing us and he's trying to threaten us with a gun. Yeah. So Steve pushed Ellen out of the way and thrust his wallet at this man. But the man was like, no. And this is one of the most chilling things I have ever heard. Oh, no. He said to him, I don't want any money. I want something else. You know what I mean.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Said this to her boyfriend. Steve was probably like, what the actual fuck?
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
And imagine Ellen being like, Like, what the fuck? Like, I, what do you do in that scenario?
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
And it didn't, it's so scary. It's like so scary. And apparently it didn't occur to Steve in the moment, but he later said that the man was slowly pushing them back off the trail and into the woods as this was happening. And Steve and Ellen were moving backwards and he was just kind of like advancing on them. Just to create space. And like, he's like getting them out of the way.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Now eventually Steve and Ellen made a move to run and things just erupted into chaos. Steve said, I heard two shots and then I felt like somebody hit my neck with a sledgehammer. I remember falling to the ground with a buzzing sensation in my arm and everything was slowing down. The bullet had ripped through Steve's neck and severed an artery in his arm and then had settled in his sternum.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
So I'm sure everyone will agree. Thank you. Yeah. That plane is plowing through the sky. There's a plane landing on our house right now. I apologize.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Oh my God. So he went unconscious. I'm sure. When he regained consciousness a few moments later, the first thing he saw was Ellen laying beside him and her head was resting in a pool of blood. Oh. The man who had shot them both looked like he was walking away, and Steve knew if he didn't stop him, they might never find him, and he might hurt someone else.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
So despite being incredibly injured, Steve forced himself to his feet. Oh my God. He's been shot in the neck and an artery has been severed.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Because he doesn't want somebody else to get hurt.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
He forces himself to his feet and slowly starts walking after him, walking up the trail in the direction of the observation deck. And he hadn't made it very far before he found a father and son hiking the trail. And he's like hysterical and he's slipping into like shock at this point. Yeah. And Steve did his best to explain to them what happened, but he wasn't making a lot of sense.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
And Lee Fritz, who was one of the guys, said he told us that he and his girlfriend had been shot and he thought she was dead.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Which like I can't even imagine having to say that. No. So with the help of some other hikers...
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
fritz managed to get steve to the observation deck where they called the police and later several witnesses on the trail that day recalled hearing the gunshots and passing a man in a gold jacket as they rushed to see what the commotion was about it's also just so crazy to think that like so many people that day were just out for hikes like that guy that steve ran into is just on a hike with his son yeah and like think of like the headspace that they're in like they're like oh
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
nature beautiful yeah and this guy just woke up from being shot next to his girlfriend seeing his girlfriend shot next to him so two of the hikers from the observation deck ventured out into the woods and found ellen's body she was dead um she had been killed by a gunshot wound to her head oh the two men sat with her body until the rescue team arrived which i'm glad they did that
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
We're saying, are you okay up there? Hello? Are you all right? Yellow jackets? How's everyone doing flying? How are you guys doing? I'm just not, period.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
In the meantime, Steve was loaded into Lee Fritz's camper van, and they started their way down to the hospital. So, like, all these campers are, like, helping each other out. When they reached the parking lot, Fritz spotted a man driving a Volkswagen Beetle that appeared to be stuck in the mud. Fritz said, something about the rearview mirror caught my eye. It was extra large for the car.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Like, so it was just a very specific thing. As they passed, Lee and the other driver made direct eye contact with one another... And it occurred to him that it was the same man that he'd passed on the trail just before he found Steve. God, can you imagine? And he said he yelled, there goes the person I think committed the crime. But he said, at the moment, I had to get Steve to a hospital.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
I was worried he was going to die. Like, I couldn't stop and try to apprehend this man.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
You have to weigh out what is more important. He's like, so I just had to get Steve to where he needed to go. Now, despite the serious physical and psychological trauma that he'd endured, Steve was able to provide a very detailed description of the killer. That's incredible. And he used that description to refine the existing composite of the sketch of the suspect. Nice.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
The problem, though, was that they still had no one to match the drawing to. And unfortunately, it was going to take one more murder before this man was finally identified as David Carpenter. Jesus Christ. Now, with the exception of the attack on Lois D'Andrati in 1960, all of David Carpenter's victims were completely unknown to him and were just kind of like victims of opportunity, unfortunately.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
For that reason, it's really strange that in choosing his last victim here... He chose someone that he knew, like, pretty well and could easily be traced back to him with very minimal effort. Because, again, psychologically, he's unwinding. He's unwinding.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Now, on May 2nd, 1981, just one month after the murder of Alan Hansen and the attempted murder of Steve Haerdel, 20-year-old Heather Skaggs was attending the same trade school where David Carpenter was working as a printer. And she mentioned that she was looking to buy a used car since hers had finally broken down for good.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Well, as it happened, Carpenter told her he had a friend in Santa Cruz who had a car for sale at a pretty good price, and he was happy to drive her over there after they both finished their shifts. If she could get the car, Carpenter pointed out he could help her get a job at the school. Heather agreed, you know, but there were two things she did find unusual about this whole thing.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Carpenter had told her to bring cash and not tell anyone when she was going. Okay, that's strange. Yeah. So Heather's mother, Mary Joan Skaggs, said that Heather called her that afternoon and seemed upset and was like, I feel like something's weird about this. She actually broke into tears at one point. She said it doesn't feel right. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
We're driving. But how are you guys doing? Is anybody else, anybody have any tips, tricks, anything that's making you feel better about it? Right now, no. One thing I can tell you, in case anybody else shares, which I know you do, shares my fear of flying and this, you know, gestures broadly at the world has made it worse lately. Follow some pilots on TikTok. Okay. I'll start.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
So her mother begged her, like, trust your instincts. Don't go with this guy. But Heather was like, I can't pass up the opportunity for a job, which is so sad. I know. And so she told her mom, don't worry. Don't worry about it, mom. Just wish that somebody else could have given her a ride. I know. And that was the last time Mary Joan Skaggs talked to her daughter. Oh, my God.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Now, later that night, when no one had heard from Heather, some of her friends reached out to David Carpenter for information, actually, because they knew the two had plans that afternoon. Because some people were there when they made these plans. Yeah. But David claimed that they hadn't met up as planned because, quote, he overslept and had car trouble. Okay.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
So because multiple people knew she had plans to go look at a car with David Carpenter, when Heather was reported missing to police, his name came up repeatedly. Yeah. But when investigators interviewed him, he just said, I overslept and my card wouldn't work. Like, I didn't see her that day. You know, it's just a coincidence that I'm a violent criminal. And it's easy alibi. I overslept.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
I didn't see her. Now, at the same time that investigators were looking into his background in the context of the Heather Skaggs case, the composite sketch that had been updated with the help of Steve was finally starting to get some traction. Nice. And the first tip came in from a 69-year-old woman in Ben Lomond, California, named Roberta Patterson.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
She reported recognizing the man in the sketch as a man she'd been on a cruise with 26 years earlier. Patterson wouldn't have remembered someone from that long ago, she said normally, but she recalled being very disturbed by Carpenter. And it was David Carpenter. Because he was making her teenage daughter very uncomfortable because he wouldn't stop touching her shoulders. Ew.
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Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Patterson told a reporter from the San Francisco Chronicle, I just didn't like the guy. It turned out this was not the first time that Patterson had reported this particular man to the police. Years earlier, she called police after seeing a sketch of the Zodiac on TV. Oh, shit. Yeah. We're about to cover that.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Now, by the time they called him in for an interview about the disappearance of Heather Skaggs, investigators already suspected him of being involved in the murders at Mount Tam. But in person, he was much less believable as a threat to anyone.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Detective Walt Robinson said, "...when he sat down and started talking to Carpenter, the first time he opened his mouth, I thought, my God, this guy can't possibly be involved in the Santa Cruz homicide." In addition to just appearing pretty meek, according to them, like he just didn't seem like, you know, judging a book by its cover, I suppose.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
They were also saying he was struggling to get a single sentence out without stuttering. When they asked about Heather, his response caught their detectives off guard because he said, I hope she hasn't been killed. I hope she hasn't been raped. Right. But they said he stuttered very hard on the words killed and raped. Oh. So that's why it like really hit them.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
They were like, first of all, why would you say that? That's just bizarre. And second of all, like why are those words hitting so hard?
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
The more he talked, the more investigators started seeing the facade of a mild, awkward man to someone who is clearly very more controlling, manipulative, and cunning. Yeah. To Robinson and his partner, Carpenter's alibi seemed way too perfect. His descriptions were too well rehearsed. Everything was too much.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
So sensing he would need to establish some kind of rapport with the suspect, Robinson told Carpenter that, like David, he had also been forced to take dance classes as a kid and would often get made fun of by his peers.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
At that, David calmly rose from his chair and for nearly 10 minutes, he went through all the dance positions he could remember, moving fluidly around this little interrogation room as the detectives just watched him without any emotion. That needs to be hospitalized.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
You know what I'm going to do for you guys? Because it's helped me and I want to share the love. Wow, look at you. I'm going to start sharing on my story some pilots that I follow in case anybody needs some, like, help getting through it. Mikey's just playing music over there. He's like, shut the fuck up, Elena. You're fired. No, but I'll start sharing it because they have helped me.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Like, the entire performance from, you know, the awkward, you know, weird embarrassment and the dance routine, it all felt very planned, though, to them.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Because at first when you hear that, you're like... Oh, like he's just really like, he's really going out there, you know? So he's trying to make it seem like he's... But to them, they felt like this is part of it. They said he was playing a game with them.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
As he danced, David said, I know you guys think I'm the number one suspect as he's dancing. Oh. And they reminded him that they were from missing persons, not homicide. Uh-huh. But all David said was, hey, I'm the number one suspect. I should be if I'm not. What the fuck? And the detectives concluded their interview and took three Polaroid photos of Carpenter then allowed him to leave.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Yeah. In the days after that, FBI agents working with the Santa Cruz County Sheriff's Office ran a 24-7 tale on David Carpenter.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
And during that time, they witnessed him attempting to sell his .38 pistol, among other things. And in the meantime, Santa Cruz homicide detectives continued to investigate the Hanson murder, focusing on David Carpenter. It was during an interview with his former girlfriend, Candy Townsend, that the first break came.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
During their conversation, Townsend mentioned a gold jacket of David's that had gone missing in early April. Oh, shit. Which he told her had been stolen out of his car. I bet. Detective Stoneybrook said, and his name is Stoneybrook. That's iconic. I just need to, can we all just take, hold space for that? He had to be a detective. That's a great name.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
He said, up to this point, we lack the nexus, the connection. We had him fitting the description, but we could not put him at the scene with the gun in his hand. That jacket was it. The Nexus. I love it.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Only Detective Stoney Brook could say it like that.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Exactly. That's the only thing. That only Stoney. Now, along with the pistol and the witness descriptions, the jacket put David Carpenter at the scene of the Hansen murder the previous month. That afternoon, Brooke called the FBI surveillance team and reported what they'd learned on the afternoon of May 15th. David Carpenter was arrested for the murder of Ellen Hansen.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Following his arrest and arraignment for the murder, seven witnesses, including Steve Haerdel, identified Carpenter as the man who they'd seen fleeing Mount Tam on the day Ellen Hansen was murdered. About a week later, on May 24th, hikers walking along the railway at Big Basin State Park unfortunately discovered the nude decomposing body of Heather Skaggs. Oh.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
She had been sexually assaulted and shot in the face with a .38 caliber handgun. Oh, God. The same gun used in the shooting of Ellen Hansen and Steve Heredal. During the trial, one of Carpenter's friends, Molly Purnell, testified that she had purchased the gun at David's request.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
And two other witnesses testified to having been shown the gun by David Carpenter at various points in the previous year.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
During his interviews, Carpenter claimed not to own a gun. But one of the former halfway house residents David lived with had turned on him and confessed to having been given the gun by Carpenter and asked to destroy it. Oh, my God. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
You really think they're going to have your back here? No. Like, come on. That man led police to where he had thrown it and the weapon was recovered. Whoa. Yep. In late July 1981, David Carpenter was charged with five counts of murder, rape, and attempted rape in Santa Cruz County.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
They kind of bring you back to reality for the situation because right now it's so scary. But they'll bring you back to a place of at least being able to be like, okay, someday I will step on a plane again.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Yeah. Now, a trial was scheduled, but in the months that followed, additional charges were added for the murders in Marin County, and that complicated the case. Things were further complicated by multiple requests for a change of venue after Carpenter's lawyers argued that there had been too much press coverage in Santa Cruz and the jury was going to be biased.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
By the time the case went to trial in April 1984, it took nearly three months to impanel a jury in Los Angeles where the case had been moved. Now, in July 1984, after a three-month trial, David Carpenter was found guilty of all charges in the Santa Cruz cases, and in November of that year, he was sentenced to death. Goodbye.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Two years later, in September 1986, Carpenter was tried for the murders committed in Marin County, where he was also found guilty of all charges, and in 1988, was also sentenced to death for those as well. Damn, two times. You're gonna die twice. Oof.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Given the complexity of the cases and the fact that death penalty cases are automatically appealed, David Carpenter appealed those convictions and sentences to the state Supreme Court several times. Although two of his convictions for the Hansen and Skaggs murders were at one point overturned on a technicality. Oh, motherfucking technicality.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
The convictions and sentences for those murders were reinstated upon review. David Carpenter has always denied killing or sexually assaulting any of the individuals he was convicted of killing. Yeah, yeah. Despite a wild amount of forensic evidence linking him to the murders. Like, there is no... Question whatsoever.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
In the years since he was incarcerated, he's been linked through DNA to the 1979 murder of Mary Bennett, who was killed while jogging at Land's End. And he remains the prime suspect in the murders of Etta Kane and Barbara Schwartz, who they were never able to pin him for. Wow. As of today, he remains incarcerated at San Quentin Prison. And he is 94 years old.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
And he is the oldest resident on California's death row. That's bullshit. That is some bullshit that that man is allowed to live this long.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Oh, I hope he's having the worst time. I hope he's having the fucking worst time.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
I hope they don't let him dance. Oh, yeah. I hope they just... I hope he lives with a constant hangnail. Yeah. And I hope he always has a cut inside of his nose.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Always dripping. And the mice are in his cell. And I hope his eye twitches and then it stops so he thinks it's gone, but then it just goes for like a week straight. Yeah, and I hope he has a dull headache. And then I hope he has an abscess in his tooth. Several teeth, actually. That's crazy.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Well, it's among everything. It's so prominent right now. And it's just among all the chaos, so I think it's definitely... Because it's a problem, that's for sure. But I think it's... Pilots, like actual people who do this all the time, if you're listening and you're a pilot, like...
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Nope, except for Mucinex, and he's one of those people who Mucinex makes puke. Mucinex makes me nauseous.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Yeah, we definitely need to find one of those because this was not one of those situations. David Carpenter's an asshole. Those poor people just living their lives and they were just victims of opportunity. It's awful. It is. But a lot of, like, civilians in this case, a lot of the detectives did a great job on this case. And a lot of civilians really pulled it together in this case.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
movie where she throws her hiking boots.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
I've never watched that. And they talk about it in Gilmore Girls, the new one. I know what you're talking about, yeah. Pacific Crest Trail. I was right. Okay. I was like, I know I'm not, I'm totally off on here. Anyway, she was going to do wild. So that's what it is. It's wild. Yeah. The Pacific, the Appalachian Trail, I think is part of that whole thing. Okay. You were also correct.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
They do. I think people who... It's a community. People who hike... I think that's just like in your bones and in your blood and like, which makes you pretty fucking great.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Keep looking out for each other and please be careful.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Superhero. But they can bring you to a place of like, okay, like this isn't where we're going to be okay. So I'll start sharing them on my stories if you need some help because it's helpful.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Social media thing. I love it for the recipes, for the pilots that tell me everything's going to be okay.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Sourdough queens. And organizations. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
I said organizations. Organizing TikTok days.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Yeah, we actually went to bed at a decent time upstairs to sleep because like... We always just try to get like as much time. Like when the kids go to sleep, we try to like make the most of the time between then and when we have to go to bed, like get things done that we can't get done while the kids are awake. So it's like it's hard because you want to like use up all that time.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Like we'll try to watch the shows we can't watch when they're awake, you know, like all that stuff. But it's not really great when I'm going up to bed at like midnight every night.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Because then you wake up early with kids. So it's like whatever. But we went up a little early last night and I have my little watch that like tracks sleep and it told me I got like five and a half hours of core sleep.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Speaking of W's and the opposite of them, which is an L. Wait.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
She's a scissor pin. Like losers. We're talking about David Kappender.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
The trailside killer here. Yikes. He's a big L. He's a M maniac. There you go. How about that? There you go. Yeah, he's definitely an M, he's an L, he's nothing good. And when we last talked to you about him, he had been released on parole. Which was crazy. Because one thing about this case is it's a prime example of the system failing consistently. On an extraordinary level. Yikes.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
I mean, failing superbly into oblivion. I have one of those coming up, too. Yeah, several times they should have kept this guy behind bars, and they just kept letting him out, kept giving him slaps on the wrist.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
He would keep reoffending. Rape and that kind of thing. Yeah, and he kept escalating too. It's like, what are you doing? And when we last talked about this, we talked about Etta Kane and John Kane, the couple who were very established hikers. Etta had gone out by herself and she hadn't returned home. They had eventually found Etta dead, unfortunately.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
And when we last talked about it, poor John had just kind of like withered away after she died. Yeah. um it's very very sad now that had happened in um like early fall now a few weeks later on september 6th david carpenter was discharged from the halfway house because remember he had been paroled to a halfway house where he was being like conditioned to kind of go out back into society it was a
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
A specific halfway house that was for, like, felons who were being reintroduced into society. Yep. He never should have been among them. He should have been kept in jail. Yeah, no, he's not the kind of person that can be reformed. No. So he was discharged from the halfway house and returned to his parents' house.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Which I was like, ew. His former probation officer, Rich Wood, said, I'd gone over to the house a number of times before he got home from work. I talked to the parents to see how he was doing, and as far as anyone would say, him moving back into the house had really not caused any problems, and things seemed to be going well. That's really all they could go on at that point.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
A few months later, in February 1980, David found work in a keychain distributor and seemed to be meeting all the requirements for his parole. Okay. But this is kind of what he does.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
And then something happens and he just flips a switch.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Now, on the morning of March 8th, 1980, Barbara Schwartz went out for a jog on the trails of Mount Tam. That afternoon, another hiker on the trail spotted 23-year-old Barbara arguing with a man who appeared to be in his 20s, according to this person. Then the man pulled a knife from his belt and started stabbing Barbara out of nowhere. Oh, shit.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
By the time the police arrived to the spot, because they immediately called the police. Yeah. By the time they got to the spot where Barbara had been last seen, her attacker was nowhere to be seen, and Barbara had bled to death from multiple stab wounds. Oh, my God. Where she was stabbed. Yeah. Barbara Schwartz's death was the second murder on the mountain in a pretty short period of time.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
And like we had talked about before, there had been deaths on this mountain, of course. But as far as they knew, there wasn't any murders before this. Right. But unlike Etta Kane's murder, this time there was evidence recovered at the scene. In addition to finding a butcher knife that investigators were virtually certain was the murder weapon, they also found a pair of blood-stained eyeglasses.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Oh, shit. That'll tell you a lot. Which is always wild when they are in such a frenzy that they leave something that important. Now, there's no way of knowing who these glasses belonged to, but the prescription was a very heavy bifocal. That, if matched to the right person, could be a very compelling evidence if it was in a trial. Yeah. This is not a regular bifocal.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
It's a very thick, heavy bifocal. Now, in their first examination of the body, it looked like Barbara had gone to great lengths to fight back. Sergeant Keating said she was repeatedly stabbed, but she put up a hell of a fight. Now, based on her defensive wounds, sheriff's detectives actually strongly suspected that Barbara's killer had most likely, very likely been wounded in this attack.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Yeah. Now that night, a little past 7 p.m., David Carpenter arrived at the emergency room. Oh, imagine that. In Peninsula Hospital in San Mateo, about 35 miles from where Barbara Schwartz's body had been discovered. Stupid ass. He had a deep cut on his right hand and his thumb.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
When the attending doctor asked how he got this injury, David said, quote, there was an attempted robbery at a 7-Eleven store in Burlingame. Burlingame, excuse me. I was attacked and injured by the holdup man. Now, so he's claiming, I tried to stop a holdup.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
I'm a hero, and I got hurt there. So... The hospital policy was that any injuries sustained during an illegal act had to be reported to police. That makes sense. So the doctor did that. Despite no report of a robbery ever having been received in that area, the officers that interviewed David Carpenter just accepted his story. And they allowed him to go on his way after being stitched up. What?
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
So they saw that there was no reports of a robbery there. And they just said, okie doke, see you never.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
He said it, though. What? They could have stopped him right now. Yeah, of course. Like, this could have been... When I tell you the failures at every single layer here... That's also just wild. Like, you would think that... Yeah. That would hold him up for a little while, at the very least. Yeah, you would think. No, they just let him go. He got stitched up, let him go. And the doctor did his job.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Yeah. He called them to try to... Figure out what was going on. Right.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
So it wasn't until the next day that San Mateo police received the all-points bulletin about Barbara's murder. And by then, the interviewing officers had completely forgotten about him. Like, they just didn't even put the pieces together. Come on. So things were relatively quiet in the months after Barbara Schwartz's murder.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
Detectives continued investigating her murder and the murder of Etta Kane. But without any new information or evidence, they really weren't going to be able to get anywhere. Then in October, the sheriff's department got another call about someone having gone missing at Mount Tam. This time, it was a couple. Oh. 19-year-old Rick Stowers and his girlfriend, 18-year-old Cindy Moreland. Okay.
Morbid
Episode 664: David Carpenter: The Trailside Killer (Part 2)
So the couple had just been, they'd just gotten engaged. Oh. And Rick had gotten his orders from the Coast Guard that were going to require him to report for his latest position at Point Reyes, which was a small coastal village about, you know, an hour outside of San Francisco. On the morning of October 8th,
Morbid
Episode 672: The Death of Ken McElroy, The Town Bully
It's so funny that this is 1981 because when you said the town bully, for some reason that just read as like 1900s to me. Right, didn't it? Like 1904. Yeah. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 672: The Death of Ken McElroy, The Town Bully
Skidmore is a wild name, and I feel like it's been featured in something that I saw lately.
Morbid
Episode 672: The Death of Ken McElroy, The Town Bully
So good. The thing about the drops at Disney, though, is that they slow them down.
Morbid
Episode 672: The Death of Ken McElroy, The Town Bully
He was stealing people's farm animals? He was stealing people's farm animals. That's messed up.
Morbid
Episode 672: The Death of Ken McElroy, The Town Bully
And then you become an adult and you're like, why the fuck did that adult want to hang out with me when I was that age?
Morbid
Episode 672: The Death of Ken McElroy, The Town Bully
It's so hard to tell teenagers that like I was a teenager who hung out with older people. And I remember you being like, no adult should want to hang out with you like that.
Morbid
Episode 672: The Death of Ken McElroy, The Town Bully
Yeah. And their sense of self too. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 672: The Death of Ken McElroy, The Town Bully
The fact that this woman had to marry a man who shot her in the face and then birth his child and then have that child taken away from her.
Morbid
Episode 672: The Death of Ken McElroy, The Town Bully
It's also like, guys, in this town of 100 people, there's one man who's been terrorizing all of you for 20 fucking years.
Morbid
Episode 672: The Death of Ken McElroy, The Town Bully
Sometimes you can even get them at the park.
Morbid
Episode 672: The Death of Ken McElroy, The Town Bully
What if you didn't know any other detail other than the fact that one woman said her and her neighbor took shifts sleeping? Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 672: The Death of Ken McElroy, The Town Bully
Can you like genuinely sit here right now and imagine you call up your neighbor to wake them up because it's their turn to watch for the town bully.
Morbid
Episode 672: The Death of Ken McElroy, The Town Bully
If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com.
Morbid
Episode 672: The Death of Ken McElroy, The Town Bully
Hey weirdos, I'm Osh. And I'm Elena. And this is Mormon.
Morbid
Episode 672: The Death of Ken McElroy, The Town Bully
you that's right oh as you should be a recommendation another one oh um that there's an elf like elf setting spray that has spf 45 that's all i use for face sunscreen because a lot of times when you do like the cream it gets in your eyes and shit this one spray it on your face good i spray it on my face probably like three four times throughout the day not a hint of a sunburn i love that so that's a good one even just for the summer so there you go
Morbid
Episode 672: The Death of Ken McElroy, The Town Bully
These are summer recommendations. That's our summer recommendation. I thought of something when I was there and I said, I got to tell the listeners. I got to tell everybody. I don't remember.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Hey weirdos, Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Things got worse, though, near the summer of 1906 when she told Chester she was pregnant. Oh, no. And it was definitely his because she was not seeing anyone else. He panicked and she was also very anxious simply because it was 1906. It's not like unwed young mothers were treated like magical beings creating life. No. They were treated like whores who were unfit to be in proper society. Yes.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
This, in fact, from what I've, like, you know, all the things that I was reading and seeing about this, it was literally, like, the amount of women, young women, who ended up killing themselves.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Because they felt it was a better outcome than the social ostracization.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Oh, I was kind of saying it wrong. Ostracization. Ostracization. That's hard to say. Yeah. Okay. It was better than being ostracized by society is what I'm thinking here.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
So, yeah, so this was like a big deal. It's not great. So she knew she had to hide out. She couldn't be around everybody. She went back to her family's farm and she communicated with Chester through letters. It was Chester who encouraged this, in fact, telling her to go hang out with her family and everything was going to be fine. Basically, go away. Get out of my face. Like, you fucking dick.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
He's a total dick. He was very negligent with her feelings, very much still sleeping around and very uninterested in the idea of being a good partner or father. But he was also a liar and a very good manipulator. He had to have been. It's that kind of guy. So he had to keep her on a leash a bit because he was a guy who wanted to have his cake and eat it too.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Before she left, he had been ignoring her and making her feel just awful. But when the letters began, she basically found herself desperately begging him for attention or any kind of hope or hint that they would be married.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And she's like, so she's basically like, give me any hope that you're going to marry me so that I can go out into society. Right. I can't go out with this child until we're married. And like, and so, you know, and she started getting the attention that she was looking for. He started telling her, yes, he would marry her and they would have a life together and just wait. It's going to be fine.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
No. Then one letter changed that. He told her he wanted to whisk her away for a romantic getaway.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Oh, yeah. He told her he wanted to take her to the Adirondacks in July. And this felt like the moment that he was going to propose. She thought this was the wedding trip. Of course. Either proposing or we're actually getting married. And sources say Grace was just over the moon excited. So they left in July and stopped at the Hotel Glenmore at Big Moose Lake. And they ate at Alta Cliff Cottage.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And they checked in with him using an alias. So that's fucking weird. He used the alias Carl Graham and she used her real name. So that was already what's going on. I'm surprised he didn't have her use a fake name. Well, I think he's also a fucking idiot. That's good. As we'll see. So I think that was part of it.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
According to the Evening Courier, a waitress there named Grace Greenwood said she witnessed them having dinner the evening before Grace was killed. And she said Grace was, quote unquote, hysterical at dinner. Apparently Chester was trying to console her, trying to tell her you have to eat. And she said she just couldn't.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Exactly. Now, the next morning, this waitress saw her again and described her as, quote-unquote, depressed. Like, she said she looked devastated.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
I know. That's the thing. Like, come here, girl. We'll get you in a separate room. Now, on the way to the hotel, they took a bus and the driver asked where they wanted to go. And this will just give you another little, like, insight into, like, Chester's way of, like, it sounds like he was just being a dick. So the bus, the driver was like, where do you guys want to go?
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And Chester just gruffly answered, any old hotel. Oh, nice. Charming. Yeah. Your romantic getaway and you're just like, whatever dump you want to bring us to. Because he didn't care.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
So the next day he told Grace he was going to bring her for a romantic picnic and they were going to take a boat ride. Oh, no. Despite her telling him in a letter that she didn't know how to swim. Oh, no. They rented a rowboat from a man named Robert Morrison. They got on the boat and he brought them to, and apparently like Robert didn't come on the boat with them. He just rented it to them.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
But Chester brought them, like rode them to the deepest and most isolated part of the lake.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Exactly. Or even worse could be that she had no idea. Yeah. And just thought he was actually being like romantic. Right. Yeah. And that's apparently the South Bay area is like the deepest point in the lake. Once there, nobody can really tell what exactly went down because it was only the two of them in the middle of the lake. Right.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
But once there, what did eventually happen was he beat Grace brutally with a horn-handled umbrella and a tennis racket.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah. Robert Morrison, the guy who had rented them the boat, said when they didn't return the boat around dinner, he was suspicious. Of course. But the next morning, he and a few others went out to try to find them because he was like, I hope nothing happens. And they found the empty boat in her coat and then came across her body. Oh. And she was dead. He had fled. Believable.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
He hid it out at the Arrowhead Hotel in Inlet. And meanwhile, during the three days he hid like the coward that he was, he also called to get an advance on his pay and received one. So he was planning on taking off.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And I love that later this fucker will pretend and be like, oh, no, I'm innocent. I didn't do it. And it's like, why were you hiding? Nothing about how you acted said you
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
were innocent if this was an accident or something which obviously it's not because she was beaten brutally like they can tell that you dumbass but it's like even if it was an accident why would you leave your pregnant girlfriend like almost fiance dead in a lake and leave the boat and then just hide out and then just for an advance on payment yeah like none of that makes any sense
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Now, when they came to, because they immediately, they talked to her family and they were like, oh, she's with this guy. So immediately they went to find him. And when they did find him, he actually tried to first claim he didn't even know Grace. He is the father of her unborn child, and he claimed he didn't even know her.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
When I say this guy is a fucking idiot, he's a fucking idiot.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
There's literally no way you can claim you don't know her. He was arrested and immediately charged with her murder. She was covered in bruises and had a good head wound and lacerations to her forehead and her mouth when she was discovered. And she was also discovered to be four months pregnant.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Because he was also making her believe that he was going to come around.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
No, that's so sad to think that that long went on. Yeah. His claim was that, first, that she killed herself. But, like, after beating herself up? No one believed that. According to the Evening Courier, they found the broken, bloody tennis racket buried on the shore.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
There was a lot to be made about whether she was dead before she hit the water during the trial. But the consensus did seem to be that she likely was. He had beaten her to death and thrown her in the water. He also claimed at one point that she jumped in willingly. Can't swim, remember. Well, she might have jumped in to get away from him. Yeah, exactly.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And he said he tried to help her and the boat tipped over. But he arrived at the hotel he had out at with all dry clothing. Huh. So.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
The trial was bonkers. Everyone was there. He's a big name. I mean, a very wealthy family. Like, this is a well-known bachelor. The media went wild. No one even knew he was dating this woman because they had kept it so under wraps. Never mind that he was the father of her unborn child. And now he was a murderer of her and a child. His own child. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
On December 5th, 1906, the jury deliberated for five hours and found him guilty of first degree murder. Good. He was sentenced to die in the electric chair. Fantastic. He spent a couple of years at Auburn Correctional Facility and apparently got some spiritual guidance along the way. And sources say he confessed to the murder to many of them.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Exactly. He was executed March 30th, 1908. He exhausted all his appeals. He tried to get out of it. I think his mother even wrote a letter to the governor trying to get a stay, but she couldn't. That's sad for his mom because he put her in that position.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
I'm pretty sure his grave, he was in an unmarked grave, and I'm pretty sure it got paved over by a road. So there's that. No comment. No comment on that. According to Adirondack.com, the murder of Grace Brown influenced the 1925 Adirondack folk song, The Ballad of Big Moose Lake.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
oh uh because that is the lake that she was uh drowned in and there's also a 1951 movie a place in the sun that is based on this story uh and there's also a 1925 novel an american tragedy that's based on it and a 1926 play about it and a 2005 opera by the same name and that's just a few of things that have been influenced by this that's crazy
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Now, A Place in the Sun and An American Tragedy apparently take Chester's side a lot and basically say grace. And what side is that? They basically show grace to be what Robert Stack on Unsolved Mysteries said was they called her a woman of easy virtue. Basically, a hoe.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah. In the 20th century. And that she should be murdered while pregnant because of that.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Apparently. So like, fuck those two things. Yeah, fuck them. Now, that isn't the end of the story because people keep seeing Grace.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
I hate that she's stuck there. Yeah, she's stuck at the lake. People keep seeing a complete apparition of a glowing woman walking the shores of Moose Lake or across the surface of the lake.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah, and also see her walking down the halls of the Big Moose Inn where she stayed. If she's not wandering the shore, people will have seen her struggling in the lake trying to get help, like almost like a repeat of what's happening. Sometimes she's seen at the cottages along the lake and like the lodge there. And apparently she likes to turn off the lights all the time.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
She doesn't like lights on. And I wonder if that's because it's like... The 1906 of it all, she's like, I didn't live with electricity. What is this? Maybe it's too bright. I think it's too bright. According to Weird New York, sometimes people recall feeling intense sadness around the lake, almost like an uncontrollable dread.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
They theorize that she and her child being killed trapped her there, and she's somehow unable to continue to move on. I want to go there and help her. Which makes me so sad. I know. Let's go. I want to. I hate that she's trapped there with all this sadness around her.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Now, this was also featured on an episode of the OG Unsolved Mysteries. I heard you watching it the other day.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
They talked about a group of people in this episode that worked at the Covewood Lodge in 1988. That's near Big Moose Lake. One of them, Rhonda, said she stopped at the staff lodge to turn out the lights. And she was with like a group of three other people who worked at the lodge. And as soon as she went in, she said she felt like someone was there.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And she said she went up to like the top floor where like there's a balcony overlooking where her friends were in the lake. And she said she didn't see anything, but she said she just like knew someone was there. Like felt a presence. Like just felt that. And she said it was very strange, very unsettling. And outside, meanwhile, her friends saw a woman standing on the balcony glowing in white.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
like fully in like a 1906 garb and she just was standing there looking out onto the lake and then she and she just stood there and they all three of them said the same thing that they saw the same thing and they said she stood there and then all of a sudden just dissipated and was gone
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
the tinglys that are happening all over my bod imagine seeing that I would my goosebumps have goosebumps and they all say that she's like has such a sad look on her face and she's just looking out over the lake
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
She sounds like she's going to vomit every time she burps. But we needed to really describe them. The reason is not like, oh, there's liquid involved. It's like, no, you're going to throw up. And so we all brace like, ah, she's going to puke. Every time. And it's scary.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Exactly. Exactly. And the same episode tells the story of Linda Lee Mackin and her friend Bridget, who vacationed at the lake around the same time. And they had flashlight issues because like, I really don't think Grace likes this electricity business. Like they were going down to the lake and the flashlight kept dimming and then just shut off. But the batteries were like brand new.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And they were like, wow, that's so pretty, like so spooky. And then they said all of a sudden the mist formed into a woman. And they said who just looked at them and they literally said it with such extreme sadness. That's all they could get from her. And they said, and actually Linda said she felt it.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
extreme overwhelming sadness herself like she was like it was literally like I immediately felt just like hopelessness and sadness and she said it was overwhelming and then the next day they were in the lodge and they were walking through like the lobby and there's memorabilia
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
about this like like old newspapers and shit and there's photos of grace and chester and they said they you could have knocked them over with a feather because they were like we saw that picture of grace and we were like that is the woman that appeared to us last night you imagine having like having an experience like that jarring that would blow and that's my fucking mind
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And she just appears to you sad, I'd be like, what can I do to help you? I know. I would not say that in that moment because I would probably shit my pants. I'm not pretending. I'd be like, what can I do to help you? I would be so confident. My shit would not be rocked at all. I would just be like, what can I do to help you pass through? I would go into help mode. No, I would not.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
I'm not claiming that. But looking back on it, you want to be like, fuck, I want to stand in front. Now, if she appears, you want to be like, what can we do to help you? Grace. How can I get you not here? I know. Because I don't want you to be on this lake. It's sad.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
I never watched that. Oh. It was Jennifer Love Hewitt, right? Yeah. Jennifer Love Hewitt.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
I want to help Grace. But that is the story of Grace Brown's tragic, tragic murder at Big Moose Lake and now her haunting at Big Moose Lake.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And herein lies the difference. I know. I know too. I'm not dispelling. I'm not dispelling that description of my burps. I'm not dispelling it, but it hurts my feelings.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
What's that? Insane. It's like fucking cave diving. Don't do that. Well... Don't do that.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Like a volcano that emptied its entire magma reservoir, which weakened the stability of it. And then it just like just in on itself. It did in fact. And then it's like, I just like looking up at a volcano. Yeah. Must be. Unbelievable, like just the size. That would give me the chili willies. Just the massive structure in front of you. And then to think of that the other way.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
I think we're feeling... Oh, now you're going to cough during my episode? I pity you. I pity you.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
That must be the most horrifying thing to come in contact with. Truly. Is a plane crash.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
wow gene crazy holy shit i want to read her book it's right yeah let me tell you what it's called i'm like damn gene yeah her book is called we fly away oh gene i know there's a picture of her with like scrapbooks and one of these articles in the heralds what is it the herald news or something um the herald news yeah she um it's a picture of like dave who was a stunner a stunner and
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
I'm literally crying. We have, like, today's, like, a spooky episode, but also a true crime episode. Yeah, for both of us. There's full true crime in here. This isn't just Spooky Yuki, but there's also Spooky Yuki.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Like in depth. Yeah. And mine is like there's only so much information about it. So I got as much as I possibly could. And I told the whole story. It would have been a mini morbid had I not stepped up. It's true. It would have been a mini morbid. But you know what? But you know what? Maybe they'll come back. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Maybe. 2025 is a wild year.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
It's very strange. Yeah. And it's like, did they take the shoes off after they were killed or did they take them off after they got them down on their knees? Right. So they couldn't run.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
So maybe we'll see Minnie Morbids again. Someday. Maybe the theme song will come back. Maybe. I'm not making promises. I'm just saying. It's possible. We have to find the file. Do we have that file?
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
That's spooky. That's really spooky. And also Wizard Island does look like a wizard's hat. It does. Correct.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah, back in the stewed, you know. The stewed, really? I like that. I forgot the pod lab. I'm in the stewed. I'm in the stewed. Yeah, so maybe, I don't know, that's something to chew on. Gross. But other than that, we're trying to, spring is almost here, everybody. It's like 20 days to spring.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
UFOs underwater, man. I mean, it's happening a lot lately. That thing's 2,000 feet deep in some spots. So many places to go. There's definitely UFOs down there. Oh, the places, though.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And in New England over here, it's been fucking awful this winter. It's been fucking freezing and so goddamn dry that I've been sick the entire winter. I just got the neurovirus. In fact, like luckily, knock on everything, we were able to contain it to just me, which is always the goal.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Because you can't hold him down. You can't hold him down. Don't you dare tether him. The old man of the goddamn lake. Not my man's. I too would make the weather go fucking lawless if you tied me to the side of it. Lawless.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
He is a maverick, but he's magic as well. He's a magic maverick. He's a maverick.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Oh yeah, we gotta touch upon Crater Lake again. And I'm very interested to hear more about that double murder.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
But, yeah, it hasn't been a banner season for me, so I'm getting on my supplement game and getting myself out of this.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Well, I've been drinking liquid IVs. Liquid IVs are also great. We love a liquid IV. We do. And I've just, you know, I've been doing some turmeric and elderberry and zinc and vitamin C. She got me on the turmeric. All the good things. Just trying to boost that immune, you know, immune system. You gotta. But going into, because I want to go into spring and summer and fall and all the fun seasons.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Thriving. You know? But I've been reading a couple books that are really good. Yeah? And I figured I'd just like quickly share them with you guys in case you're looking for something to read. Do so. So I just read Fantastic Land by Mike Bokovan. It's really good, and the audiobook is fucking phenomenal. Nice. It's super fast-paced.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
It's basically about a bunch of people getting stranded in an amusement park during a hurricane and having to survive, and it gets super gnarly. I said nice, but...
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
nice that's great that's great for them good for uh it was really good though i thought it was really fun if you're looking for something really fun really dark really fucked up hell yeah and right now i'm reading this wretched valley by jenny keifer and so far it's really good really spooky i'm very intrigued by it nice um and we're just i'm trying to get more leisure reading in done this year so i'm also trying to do that i will try to share our recommendations
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
It's true. We're only on episode two because we can maybe only get one episode done a night. Like we have to skip nights in between and stuff. So we will get there eventually. It'll take us a while, but.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah. So go take care of them. Yeah. And support them. Yep. Good call. Yeah. So, dude, I can start with mine if you want. You better. You better, bitch. You better. I was going to say, you better start, bitch. You better start, bitch. You want a listener tale? Not a listener tale.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
This is a spooky lake, but it's going to start with a very real and very tragic murder from 1906. Okay. So this is the story of Grace Brown's murder, and it is a very tragic one. Let's start at a great place, which is the beginning. I love starting there. Grace grew up in South Otselek, I think it is, in Chenango County in New York. Okay.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
When she was young, she grew up on a dairy farm, and she attended school and graduated at 16 years old. She had a very, like, normal upbringing on a dairy farm. Very cute farm upbringing. Nice. All was well until she moved to Cortland and lived with her sister Ada. Now, living with her sister, she needed to find a job, and she found a good one, it turns out.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
She ended up working at the Gillette Skirt Factory in Cortland. And upon beginning her employment there, she quickly became acquainted with the owner's nephew, Chester Gillette. He also worked there with her. He was from a wealthy family, but he was kind of all over the place. Like, he was a little bit of a mess.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
He could never hold down anything steady, and he was kind of just living the high life with no responsibilities. Fun. And he was also, like, very much, like, macking on all the girls there. But he really focused in on Grace. So... His uncle had tried to get to help him on the straight and narrow and he offered him a job at the factory. That's how he got the job. It was good pay. It was full time.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
So he was fine to take it because also there was a lot of women working there. That's kind of his ideal sitch. It really is. And he also probably liked the power he got from being like the nephew of the owner.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Like it's the Gillette skirt factory and he's Chester Gillette. And you don't have to do like anything probably.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
So it wasn't long before 20-year-old Grace, and she was 19 when they met, but 20 when she died. Okay. 20-year-old Grace and 23-year-old Chester began dating. It was a torrid affair, as all workplace affairs tend to be. I love a torrid. But it was all secret. Of course. It was all very secret.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Not just because they worked together, but because she was a dairy farm girl who came from a farm background. He was a wealthy man about town, socialite, who was sought after by every girl in the upper class in the area and every girl in every class in the area.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
He was essentially ashamed to be dating a young woman who is considered to be lower class, like lower social scale than he was. What a douchebag. He was a douchebag. He didn't want people knowing he was dating a factory farm girl.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
So don't waste her fucking time. Oh, she could have done so much better than him. I guarantee you. He's scum between a troll's toes. Not only was he keen to keep this thing under wraps, but he was also freely and openly dating and sleeping with other women right in front of Grace. Grace was not pleased about this and expressed this displeasure often, but he didn't give a shit.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
He just didn't care how she felt. And it devastated her because I think this was like she was young and she had grown up on a farm. You know, like this was her big... First big job. And I think this was like the first time she had actually been in a big relationship.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah. He also convinced her to be with him unchaperoned. Which was scandal at the time. Because he didn't want anyone knowing they were together, so they couldn't have a chaperone.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And honestly, this was a big deal. And obviously now you're like, ooh. But back then, this risked her entire reputation. Yeah. Like he did not give a shit that he was putting her entire social reputation at stake here. Because he would have been fine. Yeah, he didn't care at all. And he just never took her in public. Ever. Never. He would never take her in public. That's so sad.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Which like, wow. It's different. Hearing that, you're just like, fuck. Yeah. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Anything fun, I should say. Anything else fun. Anything fun at all.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Guys, sometimes I'm all for a cerebral horror movie or cerebral thriller. I love like a deep one, like a moody one. But sometimes you just want a fucking gimmicky serial killer that only kills people on certain holidays. Hell yeah. You know, sometimes you just want that. And it looks like Hard Eyes. It looks...
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Now, within a few weeks of Bobby's disappearance, a new theory had started circulating and it was alleging that the boy hadn't simply just wandered off, but was kidnapped from the campsite.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
According to some press accounts, quote, the local police hold to the belief that the child was brought to New Orleans during the early part of the week by the woman who was seen to alight from the train station at Port Allen with a child answering the little fellow's description. That was in the Times Democrat in 1912. Okay.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
According to this account, a passenger on a train from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, had spotted a boy he believed to be Bobby Dunbar traveling in the company of a young black woman. The woman was reportedly very well-dressed, but the police in New Orleans still just with no basis associated this woman with a group of men living on the outskirts of a nearby logging camp.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And they quickly developed a theory that the group had kidnapped Bobby Dunbar to hold him for ransom.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Very confused about that. Hello? It's like, wow, okay. It's like, I hope they stretched before they made that leap.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Now, soon after the reports of Bobby being seen in the company of this young woman, investigators began receiving other reports of sightings, which is, this happens a lot. Yep. and they were as far away as California. The St. Landry clarion alleged, it is now believed by many that little Robert Dunbar, who disappeared from the fishing camp at Swayze Lake, has been kidnapped.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
There was no basis for this. They just said, you know what, we decided. They said, you know what, he's kidnapped now. Just a week after Bobby was supposedly spotted in the company of that young woman, another report came in of his being seen with an Italian woman who was clearly not his mother. The kidnapping narrative just kept on going into the fall.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Just different people kidnapping this kid for different reasons. Which is giving his family hope. Yeah, and making them probably terrified.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Yeah, and by November, the reward amount had increased to $6,000. Damn. And again, this is 1912.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Now, the reward notice, which had been circulated to every state in the country, said, quote, Bobby is presumed to have been taken away by a woman about 30 years old, and the boy might have been carried away for the purposes of securing a ransom for his return, although no demands have been received from any source. So why would you think that? So you have literally no reason to think that.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
We have not received any ransom demands. It's been like a month. But we are of the mind that they are asking for ransoms. Don't you think they would have asked for ransom if they wanted ransom?
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
So despite not having any evidence to support the belief and citing only a handful of possible random sightings several months earlier, the press managed to keep the kidnap story alive and continued to promote the idea that Bobby had been kidnapped for ransom. But interest in the story had started to actually kind of wane as the months went on.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
You know, they weren't getting any new information, so there was not a lot of new stuff to print. Different things start to happen just the way it is. And the story, though, got a burst of energy the next month when a new story started circulating that Bobby had been killed by his captors. Oh. And now the press is printing this like it happened.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
According to one of the detectives on the case, Joseph and Robert Marshall, two men who had been arrested for the kidnapping now, they're saying, told investigators, quote, the boy had been put out of the way because it was difficult to conceal him any longer.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
No idea why this happened. It is unclear why this story was given any... It's kind of unclear why it was given any credence by journalists. It was to sell newspapers. There was no physical evidence that the Marshall brothers, or anyone else for that matter, had Bobby in their possession, let alone had killed him. No evidence whatsoever.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
But for the press, who had started to honestly run out of ways at this point to keep the story alive... The murder narrative was a convenient way to kind of wind it up again and captivate the nation for another few months.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Unfortunately for journalists, or fortunately, depending how you look at it, I guess, reports of Bobby's death were about to be seriously undermined, reviving the story in a way that I don't think anybody was ready to hear it revived. I wouldn't say so.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Now, after it was reported that Bobby was killed, the story kind of silently pulled back out of the public's view again for a little while, because that was kind of the end. Right, it got wrapped up. We have a wrap up.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
But a few months later, in early April 1913, the last of the men arrested for the supposed kidnapping were set free by a court order after the district attorneys, quote, informed the court that there was absolutely no evidence for prosecution. their release, again, seemed to signal kind of the end of the Dunbar story because now
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
I guess he's been murdered, but they have no evidence to prove anything that he's been murdered. So now it's like these little things keep happening, but they're really just endpoints. They're like periods on the story.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
But then a twist came because a few weeks later, Bobby Dunbar, or at least someone resembling Bobby Dunbar, was found in the company of a man named William Walters, who was a peddler in Columbia, Mississippi. Now, Walters was arrested on a charge of kidnapping, and the boy with him was taken into custody. But from the moment of Walters' arrest, the story was anything but simple.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
This was not just a simple, like, here he is. According to Walters, this boy was not Bobby Dunbar. This was Bruce Anderson, and he had been given to Walters by his mother, Julia Anderson. At the time, Anderson was working as a field hand and caretaker to Walters' elderly parents. Hopefully you guys can follow that. But she lacked the resources to care for her son and left him in the Walters' care.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And he said, so he wrote in a statement after he was arrested, I got this child at the residence of J.P. Walters, Burnsville, North Carolina, between November and Christmas 1911.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
It just looks like a lot of fun. I'm excited about it. This is not an ad, by the way.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
I got this kid. I got this kid. I got this kid. Around this time. Julia Anderson claimed to be the mother of the child. I don't know the father. The child was about three years old when I got him. Now, according to Walters, there were at least 100 people who had seen him and this boy, Bruce, together before and after Bobby Dunbar went missing. Okay.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Which he said, that's proof that this is not Bobby Dunbar. I mean, yeah. The following day, April 21st, Percy and Leslie Dunbar traveled 175 miles to Columbia. Yeah. Eager thinking that this is their son. Of course. But when they arrived, they were kind of surprised. Apparently it was dark when they got there and the child was asleep.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Lessie said he, quote, looks more like her son than any child she has ever seen. But she couldn't be certain that it was him. Mm hmm.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
with only oil lamp for light because remember we're in 1912 she examined him and after looking him over one journalist reported that she gasped and said i do not know i'm not quite sure okay another report published the next day said that the what that uh lessee recognized him instantly and it said quote mrs dunbar made a careful examination of the lad without awakening him
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
and was standing over the bed a few hours later when the child opened his eyes. The boy recognized his mother instantly and stretched out his arms to her. Now has that one actually happened? And that's the thing, like, so you see that, and this is why it's so dangerous when people... Lie? Do that. But it's like, because you're going to see that story and be like, oh my, that's so great.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
That's beautiful. And oh, he knew her. So that's it. Proof. Right. But it's like, they're just writing whatever the fuck they want. To sell the papers. So the first of those two reports is probably the truer of the two. Yeah, she wasn't sure. According to Tal McThania, quote, Percy and Lessie both told the papers the boy didn't look like their son. Hmm.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Among other things, his eyes were apparently much smaller than Bobby's and he was missing a scar on his foot that Bobby was known to have had. Yeah, and you don't really get rid of scars. Exactly.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Making things even more complicated was the fact that the boy seemed confused and didn't really seem to have any knowledge and familiarity that one would expect Bobby Dunbar to have with his family, with what was going on.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
About a year. About a year. So he would still remember his family. Yeah, it's not like it's like 10 years down the road or something. Despite that, Percy and Lessie returned the following day and Lessie gave the boy a bath, examining him more closely now that it was daylight. Yeah. So she was bathing him to kind of look and see if there was marks, moles that she knows her son to have. Sure.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And when she did this, she enthusiastically announced that this was her son.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Exactly. Like, I can't... I feel like this was just, I want this to be my son. Yeah.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
But then again, maybe it was. Who's to say? I will at the end of this. In early accounts of this reunion, many among the press noted that Lessie had a lot of anxiety over her uncertainty and the boys' unfamiliarity with them. One journalist wrote, quote, Bobby at first meeting turns upon Alonzo with a scowl of anger. That's his brother. There appeared to be no recognition of his little brother.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
But after Lessie and Percy formally claimed this boy, most journalists reversed course and celebrated the reunion with, you know, as like this heartwarming thing. According to one paper, quote, the instant they met, Robert said, there's my Bubba, Alonzo, and reached over and kissed him.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Some papers went even further, reporting that Bobby had, quote, asked frequently about his brother while he was in New Orleans and was very eager to see him. Okay. This is really fucked up of these papers. It is. Of course it is. This is really fucked up because none of this is confirmed. You're just writing fantasy.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And Bobby returned home to Opelousas with Percy and Lessie in late April to much fanfare and excitement. The town, who again had fundraised to find this boy, had rallied around this family. They threw a huge parade with a big band to celebrate his return. William Walters was in custody now, so everyone was like, wow, this terrible story has a happy ending.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
His kidnapper being brought to justice, and we have Bobby back. Every time they thought it was over, it wasn't, but now it was. And now it was, except it wasn't, because one woman is going to come into the picture and put a little bit of a doubt in everyone's mind. All right. Now...
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
In her statement to the authorities, Julia Andrews, remember, Bruce's mom, confirmed some of the details of Walter's story. Okay. While strongly refuting several of his claims. So it's getting weirder and weirder because now we have someone coming in and saying, oh, he's telling the truth a little bit. But there's also parts of this where he's lying out of his fucking face. Okay.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Yeah. So she said, and this is in the Times Democrat 1913, William Walters left Barnesville, North Carolina with my son, Charles Bruce, in February 1912, saying that he only wanted to take the child with him for a few days on a visit to the home of his sister. I have not seen the child from that day to this. I did not give him the child. I merely consented for him to take my son for a few days.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Now, according to Julia, she had known him. Like, this isn't some random guy that came and was just like, hey, can I take your son for a few days? And she was like, absolutely. Well, because she worked for his parents, right? Yeah, so she knew him. Yeah. And according to Julia, Bruce had taken a very strong liking to Walters. Her son had liked this man. Yeah, she's comfortable.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Followed him everywhere. So she didn't see any harm with a short trip.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Like, just was like, this is going to be fine.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
So when Walters failed to return with Bruce, Julia became very concerned, but she didn't really know where he had gone or how to get in touch with him because it's 1912 and she can't just like location share him or something. Like she's like, I don't know.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
She's like, I can't. What do I do? She's like, hey, send me a ping. Yeah. Yeah, so she just waited, hoping that he was going to come back. Yeah. She said, I am willing to go anywhere to identify him on condition that my expenses be paid and that I be allowed to take my child away from Walters. I do not want him to have my child.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Now, the problem, at least for Julia, was that this child in question had just been claimed as Bobby Dunbar by the Dunbar's. But Walters is still saying this is Bruce Anderson. It's not. Now, sensing a big story, the press in Louisiana just jumped on this opportunity. And they paid to have Julia brought to the city to examine this boy.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
So she went on an overnight train ride to get there and was brought to the Dunbar home.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Now, five different boys were presented to her for inspection. Oh, okay. Smart to do it that way. Exactly. Including the boy the Dunbars had claimed was Bobby. Yeah. Julia didn't recognize most of the boys, but when Bobby Dunbar, who they claimed was Bobby Dunbar, was presented to her, he had tears in his eyes and seemed upset. He refused to say whether he recognized Julia, which is strange.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And Julia, who was exhausted and very stressed out from travel, couldn't say whether that was Bruce. Which is like, I've never been in this situation. I can't imagine not recognizing my child. But again, who knows? Who knows? Maybe it was dark. Once again, I have never been under this kind of stress. Well, that's the thing. I have never been under this kind of situation. I am not in 1912.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
I don't know what the lighting is even like there.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
I can't imagine, but I also can't imagine the circumstances that all this is happening under. So I'm going to keep my own opinion out of this because... There's nothing for me to say. I've never been in this position. So my opinion on this would be kind of moot at this point. Speaking from 2025 over here with great lighting and all the running water I could hope for. No. So there's that.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
But she did ask whether this was the boy found traveling with Walters. But the lawyers in the room wouldn't answer her questions. Mm-hmm. Now, because she wasn't unable to identify this boy confidently or any of the children, really, everyone concluded that the entire test had been a failure. And that was it. Yeah. According to Tal McThania, quote, Julia begged for a second chance.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And the next day she was allowed to see the boy again and to look him over. Like actually, which again, like this boy just keeps getting examined.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
This time she felt more certain that it was her son. But her failure the night before was already national news. And none of the press wanted to correct any of the countless articles that had already been published celebrating Bobby's return to the Dunbar's. They wanted to stay with that story because that was a fun, heartwarming story. This is like a big old bummer.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
I think we talked about it on a recent episode that we were just saying like, you know, like one of our resolutions. I almost said revolution. Funny. Yeah.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Now, just as they had since Bobby disappeared nine months earlier, the press controlled the narrative around the Dunbar story and they had decided the outcome for themselves. They did not want to hear anything else. They set about dismissing Julia's claims and they decided they were just going to portray her as an unfit mother.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
both um one of our resolutions is to be kinder to ourselves and we wanted you guys to make sure you are also practicing that because it's important and i think that's another good one to add to the list is like try and i think honestly with the bombardment of shit and news that is happening right now and how overwhelmed everyone feels because i feel very overwhelmed insanely um
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
In one article titled Julia Has Forgotten, journalist Jerome G. Beatty described Julia's examination of the boy they were saying was Bobby Dunbar. And wow, it's a I'm going to give you a little I'm going to give you a little snippet from it. It's harsh. It's harsh as fuck. It says her long journey had been in vain. She had not seen her son since February of 1912, and she had forgotten him.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Animals don't forget. But this big, coarse country woman, several times a mother, she forgot. She cared little for her young. Children were only regrettable incidents in her life. She hopes her son isn't dead, just as she hopes that the cotton crop will be good this year. Of true mother love, she has none. How do you know that?
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
So that doesn't even really make any sense. It's just, you know what it is? Like, regardless of what you think about, you know, Julia or whatever the hell, like, in the story of the situation, that's just like a really nasty judgment to throw on someone that you don't know. Yeah, and it's adding insult to injury. That's the thing. There's a lot of...
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Emotions and emotional turmoil happening in every fucking part of this story. The Dunbars, Julia's, like, I don't know what's going on with Walter or William Walters, but like some shit's going on over there too. What she's saying is true. Her child was fucking kidnapped. Yeah, that's the thing.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And it's like, and then the Dunbars have lost their child and have no idea what happened to him and are thinking this is, there's so much emotion here. And the press was just not willing to look at it from a human level and say, there's a lot of emotions and a lot of stress, anxiety, grief, trauma, just hope, hope dashed, hope brought back. You know what I mean?
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Like these, all these people have been snip snapped around like, thank you, hope.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
It's such a situation that, like, none of us can conceive of. Oh, you cannot fathom that. And in such a time where, like, shit was real dark. So it's, like, literally and physically. And it's, like, I couldn't even say that word. For the press to be such dicks. It's, like, they were literally, like, trolls. Like, the press were trolls just, like, trying to make people upset. OG. It's like, damn.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
So the truth was, Julia Anderson was very distressed and very heartbroken about not knowing where her son was and whether this was her son. And that same year, what they were failing to say in any of these articles, saying she's been a mother several times over and she doesn't give a shit. That same year, she had given up one baby for adoption. And another child of hers had died. Oh, God.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And nobody knows the circumstances under which that adoption happened. You don't know if there was a death of a child and she just couldn't do it. Yeah, she was trying to do the right thing by the child. She was going through too much grief. And it's like, you just don't know. There's no backstory. Well, everything was so stigmatized back then. I mean, still is today.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And the press strongly implied that the death of one of her children was her fault. Of course. That's awesome. Yeah. In a single year, she had lost all her children.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And lacking the resources or social status of people, you know, like the Dunbars, because they were of a higher status, like social status, it was unlikely she was going to be able to regain custody of Bruce or convince anyone that this was her child. That's so sad.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
In fact, I think both of us have kind of like pulled back from social media a lot just because it's like... Oh, baby, I'm gone. And I'm pulling off really because I'm just like, it's too much all at once. It is. Like I can't keep intaking it all. Yeah. And you know what? We're not fucking meant to. No, we're not.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
She told reporters in May 1913, I believe this is my son Bruce, but I can't swear to it and I won't try to take him away from the Dunbars. I have suffered so much myself that I don't want to make anyone else suffer, but I just can't help it. I believe that is my boy. And it's, like, that's heartbreaking. Yeah, truly. And it's just, like, whoa.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Yeah. You know? Because maybe he's just, like, and... It's like, I don't, it's like, I don't know. He's been away from her possibly since he was three. Yeah. So he might not even know. Or younger than that. So it's like, he might have very fuzzy memories. That might be why he was upset because he was like, I'm trying to place why I know this lady. But I don't know.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
But I don't have the like full cognizance to say that. This is my mom.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Yeah, like he's been gone since three and now he's five. That's like, and he's been through, who knows what he's been through. I know. And it's like, I don't know. It just, it's a lot. Yeah. It's a lot. It is. Percy and Lissy Dunbar had decided that this was Bobby Dunbar and that's how they were living. They were not going to question their decision.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Percy told reporters after the second examination that Julia had of the boys, he said, I don't blame anybody here. You get it. I really can't.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
No, that's the thing. Never. That's why when he says, I will never give him up, court order or not. I get it. You feel...
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
the desperation like you're never taking him from me again yeah oh but like and you can't you can't blame anybody for this and you also can't blame julia for being like i'm pretty sure that's my son but i don't know what to do here oh it's there's so much like this is tragic it is it's very tragic and as it turned out they would never have to the dumb bars were never gonna have to give up bobby
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
There's a very good balance that everybody needs to strike between being informed and being inundated. And it's a hard balance to get. So like you're doing fine. Yeah. If you're listening, you're doing fine. Killing it.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Okay. Julia was unable to fight the Dunbars for custody. She returned to North Carolina without her, who she believed was her son. And from that point on, he was Bobby Dunbar.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
So right after this, attention turned to William Walters and his upcoming kidnapping trial. What's his deal? Yeah. It's worth keeping in mind that from the moment he was arrested, his story hadn't changed. He insisted the boy in his company was Bruce Anderson, who had been given to him by Julia Anderson, who was the boy's mother.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And Julia more or less confirmed that story, but with some slightly different details, obviously. And there were several other witnesses in North Carolina, Mississippi, and Louisiana who had seen Walters and Bruce Anderson together before the day Bobby Dunbar went missing. And they came forward to corroborate Walters' story. Oh, shit.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
But the story had grown so large and so complicated since Bobby disappeared, mostly entirely because of the press, that they needed someone to be held accountable for this. The public was not going to allow this just to be blown into the wind, regardless of whether a crime had actually been committed or not. Because now William Walters is saying, I didn't kidnap him. She told me to take him.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Like he's... Which I'm like, what? I'm just so confused.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
I thought he was just going for a little bit. Yeah, exactly. And it's like. This is a rigmarole of he said, she said. It's wild. So as they'd done all along, the press latched onto the kidnapping narrative and spun it into an even larger story involving a larger conspiracy to harm Percy Dunbar. Apparently, Percy Dunbar held a large amount of power in and around Opelousas.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Percy's brother Wallace told a reporter, I make no accusations, but I feel confident that Walters was merely a tool in the hands of enemies of Percy Dunbar. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. The popular theory was that a group of these men conspired to kidnap Bobby and hold him for ransom.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
But I think it's like thinking, like changing your mindset to be like, okay, what is one good thing that happened to me today or one thing that I'm grateful or can celebrate today will at least give you a little bright spot in all the darkness that it feels like is everywhere.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
But after several weeks, when the interest of the press and local law enforcement became, you know, kind of like faded out, they gave up on their plan and they passed the boy off to William Walters. So they're saying he's a tool, but from these guys. I don't think so.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
That's the problem here. Is that you never asked for ransom.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Yep. So... There's no evidence that this theory was any more realistic or even plausible than the other theories surrounding Bobby's kidnapping. It supported the kidnapping narrative that had been built up around the case and justified everyone's actions following Walter's arrest, like basically.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And it seemed that several people were willing to play along with investigators in order to support that belief. In late May, investigators started collecting affidavits from locals who were willing to testify against Walter's
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
including Harvey Burke, who was a man from Picayune, who claimed, quote, Walters told him that the Dunbar boy was not stolen for money, but for revenge, as Dunbar had given evidence against an old crippled man and caused him to be compelled to work on the streets as a convict. Okay. It really didn't matter that statements like this one contradicted the prevailing theory of a conspiracy.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
It really only mattered that it supported the belief that the boy was Bobby Dunbar and had been taken by William Walters. Yeah. Didn't really matter the details surrounding it. They were just like, oh, see, yep, he did it. And it's like, but none of these stories are adding up. People are telling 14 different stories of how he got with William Walters.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
In response to the growing number of just bonkers affidavits collected by the prosecution, Walter's lawyers, Dale and Rawls, started collecting their own affidavits that established a timeline of events and traced Walter's movements at the time of Bobby's disappearance. Okay.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
They wrote in a statement to the press, "...we have sat silently by and seen so many false statements published in the columns of the public press that we feel that the public is entitled to know the real facts on these dates." Okay. Whole day that Bobby was missing. So, boom, alibi.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
This statement confirms Walter's own story in which he told police on the day of the boy's disappearance, quote, I worked on a machine for young man Thigpen and went from there by old man Thigpen's, by Holden's, worked on a machine for Holden and doubled back and spent that night at old man Thigpen's.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
So this guy like they are all like he's saying yes he was at my home working on my sewing machine. Just like he said he was. On those two days like stayed at my home that night. Back to back. And then Walters is saying I was at his home and I stayed there those two days working on that machine. It's all adding up.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
By the time Walters was extradited to Louisiana to stand trial, he was at a huge disadvantage. Like Julia Anderson, William Walters was poor. He was uneducated. He lacked the resources or knowledge to mount any kind of proper defense against his accusers, who were honestly like part of a wealthier, higher social status than he is.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
More importantly, the majority of Walters' witnesses lived in Mississippi. And while it wasn't too crazy of a distance to travel, the majority of them lacked the funds to travel to Louisiana and testify on his behalf. Yeah. So a lot of people could see that this was a disadvantage, that a lot of the people that could come and testify on his behalf couldn't get there. Yeah. So the residents of St.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Landry Parish, particularly the ones who weren't convinced of Walter's guilt, many of them offered to pay to have Walter's witnesses put up in Opelousas during the trial. Wow. That's huge. They were that convinced. Yeah.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
William Walters' trial for the kidnapping of Bobby Dunbar started in mid-April 1914 in Opelousas and was heavily attended by spectators from all over who had been following this case since Bobby disappeared. For Walters, the trial could mean life in prison or the death penalty if he was found guilty.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
But for the Dunbars and Julia Anderson, it meant the opportunity to definitively prove the boy's identity and put any custody claims to rest. Now, the first witness called in the case was Percy Dunbar. He detailed the eight-month search for his son and testified that, quote, he recognized the child when he found him at Columbia.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
But he did acknowledge that, quote, he recognized some of the mark on the boy, but not all. Now, following his testimony were a number of witnesses for the prosecution, including Wallace Dunbar, his brother. They all testified that the boy discovered in the company of William Walters was indeed Bobby Dunbar. But none appeared to have offered any proof beyond just, like, I recognize him.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
He's Bobby Dunbar. Which I understand that, like, what proof would you have? Yeah. As predicted, Walters' case was hampered by a lack of witnesses and a jury that was almost certainly biased against him from all the press that was covering the story. In an open letter to the people of Louisiana, one Walters supporter wrote, You have promised to give W.C. Walters a fair trial.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
The man is now on trial in a hostile community without money and without friends. While it is late, it is not too late to render the justice promised for this man, whether he be guilty or innocent. So they're just saying he deserves a fair trial, whether he's guilty or innocent. Yeah. For his part, William Walters remained very hopeful that the jury was going to see the truth.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
He couldn't rely on many of his witnesses to travel to Opelousas to testify on his behalf. But his lawyers had found several of the town's, quote unquote, prominent citizens who were willing to testify that the boy in question was not Bobby Dunbar. Oh, man. Among those who did travel to Louisiana for the trial were W.H.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Murray, a mail carrier from Barnesville, North Carolina, who testified that the boy found with Walters was Bruce Anderson. Likewise, E.M. Stevens, who was a merchant from Barnesville, also testified and told the jury he was confident the boy was Bruce Anderson.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Both proved strong witnesses for the defense, but in their cross-examination, the prosecution treated both men as hostile and, according to one reporter, quote, succeeded in rattling Murray to some extent, basically undermining his credibility. Which is shitty, because you're essentially just like prodding your witness. Yeah, it's like, just let the facts come out, man. Right.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Let the facts fall where they may and figure it out that way. On April 22nd, Julia Anderson, who had been ill for most of the trial, testified from a cot set up in the lobby of the Lacombe Hotel near the courthouse. Oh, wow. She gave a thorough history of her difficult life and again said how her child had come to be in the company of William Walters.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
She also continued to insist that the boy was her son, Bruce Anderson. And she said, if that ain't my child, he's never been born on this earth.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Sometimes you just got to – and you know what? I don't know why this is turning into this, but I think whatever. Are we a self-help podcast? Suddenly we've turned – guess what, guys? Sometimes it's just like go, if you can, like take a walk. Walk your dog. Walk your kid. Oh, hell yeah. Walk alone. Just get air. And just kind of like take a little walk. Look around. Look at the trees.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Despite the intense scrutiny and negative press Julia had received in the years leading up to the trial, even the very obviously biased press couldn't ignore the fact that, unlike the prosecution's flimsy case, Julia's story seemed to support everything Walters had said since his arrest. It is. They were telling this. It is. I was saying it did and it does. It is. It is. It is.
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Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
They both, they're the same story. Yeah. Just with, like, little minor things that, like, I think they both are going to squabble over. It's always, like, what do they say? Like, yours, mine, and the truth. One reporter wrote in the Times Picayune, the strong point of the defense is that every bit of its testimony grooves perfectly. You love saying Picayune, don't you? I love saying Picayune.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
It makes me so happy. I had to ask. I love it. I got to say it a lot in the Axeman of New Orleans. And it just stuck. It felt right.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
But the trial came to an end after two weeks, and on April 25th, the jury retired for deliberation. That must have been tough. Yeah. So... Through this whole trial, the jury had heard from a lot of witnesses who supported Walter's claims and offered details that offered more than a little reasonable doubt as to his guilt.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And by extension, they had to think about the identity of the boy who had been found in his company. They had made it reasonably sound to think that this might not be Bobby Dunbar. Regardless of that strong support, that was very clear. On April 27th, the jury found William Walters guilty without capital punishment.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And sentenced to life in prison for kidnapping. Now, his lawyers quickly filed an appeal, arguing, among other things, that the statute under which he'd been convicted, which is Louisiana Act No. 271, was unconstitutional and that the prosecution had far exceeded the limitations of the right to cross-examine defense witnesses.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
The Louisiana Supreme Court agreed and ordered that the verdict and sentence against Walters be set aside and that he be released from prison and, quote, discharged from further prosecution under that statute. So following this decision, the prosecution had the opportunity to try Walters again under an amended statute.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
But they said it would be too expensive to do a second trial and it would be a poor use of resources. So they dropped the charges and William Walters was free to go. That's suspicious. That should tell you a little bit.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Yeah, like, that's totally fine. Why not? We'll say on paper that you did it, but get out of here. It's like, yeah, okay. Oh, yeah, totally. That makes sense.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And then they're just like, yeah. Yeah, get out of here now. And who knows? That's the thing, too. It's like, what was up with William Walters? Why did he have this child? Is Julia telling the truth that like she never told him he could have this child? Did he kidnap this child? Who is this child? Like, what is going on? Where am I? That's the thing. Like, I don't know what the real story is.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Because he's saying, no, I didn't kidnap this child. She said I could have this child.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
It sounds silly. Passion said so. But sometimes those things – exactly. Sometimes those are the things that all of a sudden make you go like, you know what? I'm lucky to be here. Yeah. Let me think of all the things that I have that I can make myself feel better about, you know, everything. Yeah. It's a grounding exercise. It is. And we're here with you.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
But why, though? One. And then two, she was like, fuck. For why, though? For why, though? And then, but Julia's like, no, I didn't tell him he could have my child and I don't want him to have my child. So that gives me pause. I mean, yeah. And then the Dunbars are like, this is Bobby Dunbar. And we're like, what? Oh, man. This is a wreck.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Now, with the trial having come to an end and Walter is freed by a technicality, one question still remained. Who is this child? What happened to Bruce Anderson now?
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Because now, okay, sure, this is Bobby Dunbar. Where the fuck is Bruce Anderson? What happened?
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Like, the press and the Dunbars maintain that the boy discovered with Walters was Bobby Dunbar. I don't think so. So the majority, they were just kind of like, okay, but Julia lost a child, everybody. Like, are we really just forgetting that? Like, where's her child? Where's Bruce? Yeah. Unfortunately, the fate of anybody would really be kind of left up in the air for decades after this.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
It just ended that way where the Dunbars were like, this is Bobby. And then they were like, I don't know what happened to Bruce. What about Julia? So following the trial, Julia Anderson decided to relocate to Polarville, Mississippi. And she spent time there. She had spent time there before the trial. And she found a lot of supporters there. Oh, good.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
There were a lot of people who had her back among those residents. That's good. She needed that. Years later, she married James Rawls. I could not figure out if there was a connection between the lawyer Rawls. Oh, yeah. And the couple had seven children together. Oh, hell yeah. Julia never got over the loss of her son, Bruce, and talked about him often until her death in 1940 at the age of 55.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Well, this is where it would have ended. Like, this is where that would have been the end. Like, wow, what a story. What a tale. That's crazy. But in 1999, Margaret Dunbar Cartwright died. One of Bobby's granddaughters, Bobby Dunbar's granddaughters, received a large scrapbook that had hundreds of articles about the case. And so she started digging into the family history. Margaret knew the story.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
She had had years of hearing it told by her parents and grandparents. She knew the story well, or she thought she did. But she said when she started digging deeper into the case, it became clear to her that the version of the story she'd heard her whole life might not have been as accurate as she'd been led to believe. So Margaret said of Julia, so Julia Anderson, this woman was telling truth.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
She did have a son. And my heart hurts for Julia at this point, believing that this boy is her son. You know, it's really awkward because Leslie and Julia are in the same position. They're both missing children. Which is like... This is his granddaughter? Like, for her to come out and be like, yeah, like, we should have a space in our heart here for this woman as well?
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Margaret's research eventually led her to Mississippi, where she sat down with Julia's two remaining children, Hollis and Jewel. This was in 2000. It turned out that Julia's family had also heard about the case their whole lives, but a very different version of events.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Jewel's daughter, Linda, told Margaret, we knew that we had an uncle that had been taken by the Dunbar family in Opelousas, Louisiana. We always said kidnapped. We said they kidnapped him.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Now, from Jewel and Hollis, Margaret learned a lot about Julia, and it painted a very different picture from the woman she was known really. She had only known from, like, legend and, like, really bad, disparaging newspaper articles.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Julia, according to her children and grandchildren, was a wonderful mother and an incredibly resilient woman who attended church every Sunday and contributed to her community whenever she could. It was clear to her children that no matter how strong she appeared to be to everyone around her, which she appeared to be very strong, Julia lived her entire life with a piece missing.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And they said, Jewel said she always talked about Bruce, but she called him Bobby. She was always looking for him. Oh, wow. Now, everyone in the Rawls family knew about Bruce and the Dunbars, and they knew they lived only about 200 miles from one another. Which is not very far at all. But they also knew the Dunbars were a prominent, somewhat wealthy family with good social status.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
They didn't want to cause any trouble. So Bruce would always just be a memory to them. at least until Margaret Dunbar Cartwright began conducting her research. Margaret Cartwright spent more than four years working on her genealogical project, sometimes working at basically full time on it.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And she came away with a very intimate history, not only of her own family, but of the Rawls and Walters families as well. She went hard. The research gave her a brand new perspective on the old family legend about her grandfather's disappearance and reappearance until one day it dawned on her that the story her family had been telling her for decades could very likely be a lie.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
So Margaret summarized her findings and brought the findings to the rest of the Dunbar family, her family, and suggested that they have a DNA test done to put an end to this controversy once and for all. And to her surprise, several members of the family said no. Oh, girl. Despite their objections, Margaret arranged with her cousin, Alonzo Dunbar's son. So Bobby Dunbar's brother Alonzo, his son.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
They arranged together to have a comparative DNA test done to see if there was genealogical DNA. If it came up that there was genealogical DNA, then we got Bobby. Okay. Because we're testing his brother. So we're seeing that.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Now, out of respect for the rest of the family, they agreed that they would only open, they were not going to open the results of this until everyone in the family was comfortable doing so. So they were going to receive these, they were going to do it, but receive the results and then wait it out until everyone felt like they wanted to know, and then they would do it together.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Unfortunately... They never reached that point. A few weeks later, it was already done for them. So Margaret said, I called to check with the laboratory and the laboratory assistant ended up blurting to me the results over the phone.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
That was not Bobby Dunbar. That was Bruce Anderson. What the fuck? Likely Bruce Anderson. That's the story that, you know, we don't have the DNA, but. Holy shit. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't remember the ending of this. She said the lab technician had no idea the impact of what she was saying to me. It was a shock to me. Not really the conclusion, but to hear it. So she knew.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
She was like, I have a feeling this is not Bobby. No matter what. But to hear it confirmed. Wow. And several members of the family were furious that Margaret had defied their wishes. But she felt she had a duty to inform everyone.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
No. She wanted to know. Yeah. She had every right to know. Also, fate has a funny way of working things out. Yeah. Because the DNA results weren't just confirmation of their grandfather's identity. Right. Because now they're like... Oh, my God. I'm pretty sure that that's Bruce Anderson. Right. Which would also mean, like, we're now related to Julia Anderson and her family. Oh, my God.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Yeah, you're like... Like, that's a whole different... Those are, like, your cousins, technically. Those are now, like, your kin, essentially. Like, you know, like, that's... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Holy shit. Oh, my God. And it's, like, thinking of Bobby Dunbar. Like, this kid who went through all this...
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
like quote unquote Bobby Dunbar, going through all these examinations, going through the back and forth, all that shit, seeing his mother, not knowing if it's her, just living with the Dunbars, potentially being kidnapped, not having any idea what he went through with Walters.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And then to think of him, what really shocked me was to think of him as an adult who got married, who had kids, who had grandkids, and they must have heard, imagine hearing this story. You'd be like, Grandpa, what? And also, like, he must have known somewhere in his head.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
He knew. It's like, I had to have somewhere. You wonder.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
But wow, you just feel for them because it's like, wow, this is just so deeply traumatizing. Yeah. But so this wasn't just, you know, confirming their grandfather's identity. They were also, you know, vindicating Julia Anderson and William Walters. Both were called liars and accused of much worse for saying this is Bruce Anderson and not Bobby Dunbar. They were both dead by this point.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Best time to do it is right now. Get into the love. Get into the kindness. Everybody be cool, man. Just don't be all like uncool. Just be cool. Just be cool. Don't be all like uncool. And you know, this story that I have for you today. Is it uncool? Pretty uncool. But at the end of it. It does have, no, it's still a little, there's a lot of like unknowns in this.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And to think of like Julia seeing her child and not being able to have him. And then thinking of the Dunbars, because I, like, Lessie and Percy just wanting this to be their child. Yeah. That they were missing. It's like, oh, my God. There's no win. And when you look up pictures, you can see why there was, like, a doubt.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
I'm not saying why, like, in a family it would be confusing, but I'm saying from, like, an outside perspective, I can see the resemblance. Yeah. And Hollis Rawls, Julia Anderson's child, said, we have no hard feelings against nobody of what has happened. Because back in those days, I'm sure they thought they were doing the right thing.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And if I had been back in those days, I might have felt the same way in a way about things like that.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Yeah. But if Bobby Dunbar was really Bruce Anderson, then what happened to Bobby Dunbar? Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
We go all the way back to the beginning. Yep. And Margaret speculated, I think he fell off the Swayze Lake Bridge and was eaten by an alligator and died. That's the most likely scenario. And honestly, the truth is, we will probably not ever know. I never like to say that, but we might never know. I mean, how would we? What happened to Bobby Dunbar on August 23rd, 1912? That is a haunting tale.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
The end of that story shook me to my fucking core.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Yeah. And they're just like. That just had to chill down my fucking spine. They're adorable little boys. Oh my God. Like both of them are just such little cuties.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
oh god and just the thing that julia died not ever having that piece of her put back together like not hearing like this is you were right yeah i mean you hope wherever wherever she's hanging out that she got to see it wow what a tale Or maybe whatever you believe in, maybe they're reunited somewhere.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
I don't know. I like that. Yeah. In another life. In another life, in another timeline, another realm somewhere. That's what I believe. I feel like there's so many other lives. Yeah, there's another realm going on. I don't know what it's all about, but I'm sure it's there somewhere. I hope I don't have IBS in that realm. Well, I hope so too. I'm just saying. I'm just putting out my wishes now.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Just saying. Just letting you know what I hope is going down in the other realm. What do you hope? I hope I don't have migraines in the other realm. There you go. I'd really love to get rid of those. We'd like to get rid of our ailments in the other realm. That'd be pretty sick. All right. Yeah. Wow.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Some of them become more known. Yeah. But then there's still a mystery at the end. That's kind of fun. I am sorry to say that I'm going to leave you slightly, slightly open to some things, but there's going to be a couple of things that you're like, whoa.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Yeah, they did. You're right. Shout out to Karen in Georgia. Shout out to Karen in Georgia. This is The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar. Now, again, normally I don't love to do children's cases because it bums me out a lot. This one's bummed me out for sure. But there was so much like shenanigans in this case that it felt like an important story to tell. Yeah. For sure.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
So this goes all the way back to 1912. Whoa. Yeah. We're really back there. Whoa. On August 23rd, 1912, Percy and Lessie Dunbar traveled with their two sons, Alonzo and Bobby. They had lived in Opelousas. I looked it up how to say it. I hope I said it correctly. Opelousas, Louisiana. They were traveling to a nearby Swayze Lake. There you go.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
They had planned to spend the day there, do some fishing, some camping, just a nice little family outing. That night, the family was sleeping in their tent and their four-year-old Bobby apparently woke up and left the tent for some unknown reason.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
uh apparently he wandered away from the campsite but nobody saw him do this this is just assuming because he wasn't there yeah um the next morning when lessee and percy woke up they found bobby missing which i literally can't imagine what they felt in that moment but waking up to find your kid missing must be in the wilderness yeah fuck that so they of course they panicked and started frantically searching the area around the tent for him
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Now at the time, Swayze Lake was really more of an undeveloped swamp than an actual recreation area. It was, according to author Tal Macthenia, I hope I'm saying that name right, It was apparently, quote, teeming with alligators and surrounded by dark, thick woods. So not great. So their search was going to be very dangerous and very slow and very difficult. All of the above.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And when they weren't able to find Bobby very quickly, Percy went into town to get help. And within hours, there were dozens of men that had arrived at the lake to help search for Bobby. By that night, about 150 men had joined the search party, including a group of divers who searched the lake. Wow. Which, again, was more of a swamp. It was more of a swamp. With fucking alligators. Oh, my God.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Yeah. And these are divers that they got in here in 1912. That's crazy. Now, unfortunately, because the terrain was so hard to maneuver and it was so dense, so thickly settled, it was super, super slow, this process of looking for him. According to one account, quote, the cane breaks and undergrowth at Swayze Lake are so thick that it's impossible to see 10 feet from the trail. Wow.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And many of the searchers really quickly began speculating, like, we're not going to find this kid. Yeah. They were like out loud being like, I don't think we're going to find him. Yeah. Which must have been horrifying to hear. Nearby, a smaller group of men actually dynamited the stream for more than a mile in order to bring anything to the surface that was under the water.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
I like dynamited as a verb. Right? It really is. But nothing worked. Nothing found. There was no sign of Bobby. These poor parents. They had searched the area for 18 hours and they found no sign of him. And Percy and Lessie reluctantly returned to Opelousas while what remained of the search party continued to comb the area. Oh, that's so sad. But they had to bring their other son home.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
morbid morbid morbid morbid morbid and the world is falling apart around us everywhere everywhere yeah all of it um and i i assume when this comes out that the world will still be falling apart around us so this is pretty relevant yeah um yeah everything sucks but you know what we're gonna be just fine because we're all gonna pull together community as a community yeah you know
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Can you imagine you just like go out for a cute family outing? With two children and you come back with one. Like that is beyond. Unthinkable.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Now, in the days after this, a smaller group continued to search the area. So people weren't giving up on this. Several divers did their best to search through the murky waters, but they never found even the slightest bit of evidence that Bobby had even been there. By the third day, many of them had given him up for dead.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Basically reasoning there was very little chance that a four-year-old could survive the elements alone for that long. Yeah. Much less in an area where there were gators. There were all so much wildlife there. Yeah. That was not going to be good. The main theory at the time was that Bobby had wandered away from the camp in the night and fallen into the lake and drowned.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And but some were holding out hope that he was still alive, saying that maybe, you know, maybe he's still alive because if he had drowned, then we probably would have found some evidence like a scrap of clothing, something which like, I don't know, with gators. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Now, within a week, news of Bobby's disappearance had reached the wider public, and it quickly became a big fascination with the press. One reporter wrote, never in the history of this parish has an incident created such profound interest and such profound sorrow. Which I think is a really great way of saying it. The idea that a child could simply disappear without a trace.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
That was enough of a mystery and enough of like a horrifying situation to think about. That was enough to grab the attention of the public very quickly. But there was also this really like macabre angle that the press couldn't ignore. One reporter asked, is little Robert at the bottom of Swayze Lake? And then this is like... The way that he wrote this, I'm like, okay. I mean, immediately.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Like, that's already jarring. Oh, it gets worse. Is little Robert at the bottom of the Swayze Lake? Is his little body the victim of the rapacious appetite of alligators, loggerhead turtles, garfish? Or has the little fellow been gnawed to death by mosquitoes, gnats in the jungles of the Atchafalaya Swamp?
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Yeah, novels, fiction, you know? Nothing true. Use that prose for good. We don't need you using that flowery prose for someone's four-year-old. Yeah, real life situation. That they are holding out hope that they're alive. Jesus. I feel like reading that, I hope his family never read that. No. Because what the fuck? Oh, God. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Now, this was the moment that it became clear that the press was going to be a massive figure in this case. Okay. And they are. Yeah. A big figure. Probably the biggest, to be quite honest.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Not in this case. And so, so hurtful. Not in this case. Yeah. Bobby's disappearance coincided with a strange period in American journalism, actually. It was guided way more by, like, how much you could sell and how much readership you could gain than any kind of, like, journalistic ethics code or anything like that. Any kind of integrity. Any kind of, like, seeking out the truth kind of situation.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
It was... That's big business. That is big business. Numbers, numbers, numbers. Exactly. It's never like, can I actually give you the truth or dig something up? It's like, this is the most salacious version of the story. Who gives a shit if it's real? Let's make money off it. Because it's going to get people to pick it up.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
So as a result, newspapers frequently contradicted one another, embellished stories, and in some cases just flat out lied in articles they published because it sold. That's insane. They were tabloids. That's crazy.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Support local businesses. Support local businesses. And remember, you do not have to open your door to ICE unless they serve you a warrant. So just know that. Anything else fun that's happening?
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Be like, yeah, this is what I think happened. And you're seeing all these newspapers contradicting themselves because this one's saying, it's just who, which story the different newspaper grabbed onto and said, I think that our readers will grab this one. Yeah, exactly. They didn't care, like, should we check the sources? Nah. Like, let's just go with this one. That's good.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Now, for example, in early reports, Bobby had disappeared from the camp in the middle of the night while Percy and Lessie were asleep, which is what happened. Days later, though, a new story appeared in several of the papers. And in this story, Bobby had attempted to follow his father down to the lake, but Percy had turned around and told him to return to camp, which was a mile away.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And he was last seen wandering alone back to the campsite. It's like, why make that up? Well, this distinction, like, to some people at first might seem like kind of trivial and just like, okay, that's stupid. But the latter account of this story, it opens the door to many more scary possibilities, first of all. But it also kind of attempted to place some of the blame. On the dad.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Even vaguely on Percy for sending his four-year-old a mile back to the campsite by himself. Right. And it's like, that's fucked up. It is fucked up. Because it's like these people are going through a hell that you can't.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
even comprehend right like what the now while many among the search party and in the press had given up bobby for dead at this point there were still those that hung on to hope that he could still be alive somewhere in opelousas a small group of residents actually fundraised a thousand dollars as a reward to anyone who returned bobby alive and unharmed to his family And think, that's 1912.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
That's a lot of money. And that's like the community doing that. That's not just the family. And in response to the community support, Percy and Lessie published a letter of thanks in the local papers. They said, we are well aware that all has been done which human effort can accomplish. And it is a comfort to know that our country is with one of the kindest, hardest peoples on earth.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
We're not being one of those people who are like, we can't talk about it right now. We just have so many things happening that we just can't tell you. But you will absolutely find out about these things.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
On December 24th, Berman's next-door neighbors noticed that the back door to her house had been slightly open for some time, and one of her dogs had gotten loose. Aww. Given how paranoid Susan had been about safety, the situation seemed very unusual to this couple, so they called the police.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
When officers arrived at Susan Berman's home, they found Susan inside on the floor, lying in a pool of dried blood, a single bullet hole to the back of her head.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
To investigators, the murder appeared to be a professional execution. Yeah, yeah. Like one might expect to see out of like a mafia hit. Yeah. Essentially. And given Susan's family background, because remember, remember where Susan comes from from part one. Yes. A mob hit wouldn't have been completely out of the question.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
A little bit of money here. Oh, wow. Also, there didn't appear to be any sign of struggle in the house. And Berman's purse was lying in plain view with nothing missing. Holy shit. So it wasn't like it was a robbery. Right.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
The idea that Susan Berman had been killed by a member of an organized crime family may not have been entirely unrealistic, but it also wasn't very likely. Yeah, because like... Like mob hits are happening like all over the place.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Yeah. So after all, you know, by 2000, the U.S. government had almost completely eradicated the original crime families. And it seemed kind of impossible that her murder could have anything to do with her father's criminal activity.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Because he had died decades earlier. Right. So it's not like he was like out and about doing some shady shit. Yeah. But as investigators soon learned, Susan's father wasn't the only connection she had to criminal activity.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
In fact, nearly 20 years earlier, the wife of Susan's best friend, Robert Durst, had gone missing, and he had been the prime suspect in her disappearance. This is true. Connection. There it is. So based on the crime scene, investigators theorized that Berman had known her attacker. Yes. There was no sign of struggle, no sign of forced entry. And remember, she's like Fort Knox.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
She had to let somebody in if somebody came in. And she'd obviously turned her back on them long enough for the killer to aim and fire the gun. Something she wasn't going to do for most people.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
There was also the unusual letter Beverly Hills Police received a few days after Berman's body was found. It was dated December 23rd, the day before she was discovered. And the letter was addressed to the Beverly Hills Police. It was also spelled wrong. It had an extra E in Beverly. Like L-E-Y.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
And contained an anonymous note with Berman's address and the word cadaver.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
We did. We had a great time. Ronnie and Ben from Watch What Crappens came to Boston for a show. I laughed so hard during that show that my jaw hurt.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Not long after the note was received, someone pointed out that the misspelling of the word Beverly on the envelope was a typo that Durst was known to commonly make. He commonly spelled Beverly wrong this way. However, when he was confronted with the letter, he of course vehemently denied having written or sent it. But that is a strange coincidence that he just happens to misspell this word.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Yeah, that's real specific. Yeah. It's worth noting that this was Durst's position on the matter for nearly 20 years. Damn. Until 2019 when his legal team acknowledged that Durst had in fact sent the letter. But that quote didn't change the fact that Bob Durst did not kill Susan Berman.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Are you really arguing that? Like... I mean, like, you got to do it.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
I would be so for real right now. Like, let's be so fucking for real. Let's be straight up here. Like, come on. So when friends learned of Berman's death, some thought of her father and his connection to the mob. Because for much of her young life, Susan had known very little about her father's business.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
And it was only when she was an adult and he was long dead that she kind of started learning about his brutal, murderous past.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
oh so maybe people are thinking like she's diving into this she's going too close yeah yeah others though thought of robert durst yeah i could see why berman's friend christian clark said it has bothered me and haunted me virtually every day for 20 years oh i can't imagine yeah when clark learned of morris black's death and durst's arrest she immediately thought of susan and was more convinced than ever that he was involved
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Absolutely. It turned out that Christiane Clark wasn't the only one who suspected Durst could have been responsible for Susan Berman's murder. Detectives in California also found his connection to the victim to be very suspicious.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
It turned out that just weeks before she was discovered, investigators in New York had been trying to get in touch with Susan Berman to discuss the recently reopened case in the disappearance of Kathy Durst. Oh, shit. Isn't that strange? Yup. That they were going to be contacting her?
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
and now she's murdered oh man and like that's your best friend that's your best friend like obviously you don't have feelings clearly clearly but like damn fuck yeah gilbert and jimmy told a reporter i find it hard to believe there's not a connection between the durst and berman cases Yet as far as the LAPD was concerned... The LAPD? They were unwilling to publicly declare Robert Durst a suspect.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Strange stance. At least until they had more information and evidence connecting him to the crime. In the meantime, Robert was free to move about the country, which is when he chose to relocate to Galveston, Texas, where he met Morris Black.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
While he was in custody for the murder of Morris Black. So in the future of it. Yeah. So we had a little future trip. Now he's off to Texas. That's when the Morris Black bit happened. That's also when he was impersonating someone else. Yes. Which tells you like a little bit about the headspace he's in.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
While he was in custody for the murder of Morris Black, Robert Durst said nothing to police and was freed on $250,000 bond pending arraignment, which was scheduled for the following week on October 16th.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
He can do that in a second. That's not great. Unfortunately for investigators, October 16th arrived and Robert Durst was nowhere to be found. Yeah, are you guys shocked? Yeah. When he failed to show up for his hearing, he was labeled a fugitive and law enforcement agents were dispatched from Texas to hunt him down.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
At the same time, the judge revoked Durst's bail and tripled it to $750,000.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Now, when asked about Durst fleeing Texas, authorities speculated that Robert Durst knew his chances with a jury were not going to be very good.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Lieutenant Mike Putnell said, as much as there is about this case, we still do not know. The one thing we're really confident in is the strength of the evidence. While Durst's flight from Galveston wasn't necessarily evidence of his guilt, the evidence against him definitely didn't look good. And when they continued looking into his background, things only got stranger.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
It turned out that the woman who paid Durst's bond a few weeks earlier, Deborah Lee Sheraton, wasn't just an acquaintance, but his wife, who he'd married a few weeks before moving to Galveston. What the fuck? For 45 days, investigators fielded calls with tips about potential Durst sightings. So he's married now, by the way. His wife has now paid his bond.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
But she didn't live in the apartment where he lived? It's so messy. There were rumors about his having fled to Mexico or other parts of Texas and reports of sightings up and down the East Coast from New Orleans to New York. Lead detective Cody Cazales told reporters with his money, he could be anywhere. Yeah.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
If investigators were expecting to find Robert Durst in some far-off country or tropical island somewhere, they were surely shocked when Durst was finally arrested on November 30th after being caught stealing a sandwich from a Wegmans grocery store in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
That motherfucker has endless amounts of cash.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
It's very worth it. They're very... They're hilarious. They put out insane amounts of content. Truly. And they're just like the loveliest human beings. We love them.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
And he stole a goddamn sandwich from a Wegmans? You stole it from a Weggies? What's wrong with you? Don't be stealing from Wegmans. Don't you steal from a Weggies?
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Wegmans for life. And the fact that you are a fucking fugitive on the run with endless cash and you choose to commit the stupidest crime? Dumb. Or just make your own goddamn sandwich. You don't even have to buy one. A man like that doesn't make his own sandwich. Goddamn.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
More bizarre than the shoplifting itself was the fact that when he was taken into custody, Durst had several hundred dollars in cash on him and could have paid for that sandwich. Like... Or anything else he wanted in that store. He probably could have paid for the store.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
That thrill is not worth... You're a fugitive, babe. Yeah. I'm glad that you made that choice. That's not good. But still, like, a sandwich that you're just going to eat? Yeah, it's like, what do you get out of that? What's the thrill there?
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Now, when asked about Durst's demeanor following his arrest, store manager Kevin Strickles described Durst as nervous from the standpoint that he got caught stealing. When he was asked why he'd risked shoplifting at a time like that, because, like, everybody wanted to know what I want to know, Durst replied, I don't know why I did it. I guess I'm just an asshole. Self-aware.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
So that was a lot of fun. We got to meet a lot of weirdos there. I know. That was so fun. So that was a lot of fun. If we ran into you, it was lovely and we were very happy to run into you.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
He is just an asshole. I mean, he's fully upfront about it.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Oh, it's totally smarmy and like shitty. No, not flagellating. What is it?
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Well, it's very like, I guess I'm just an asshole and you all have to deal with it. Whatever. Like the world has to accept that I'm an asshole.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
So a few months later, investigators released the details of the manhunt for Robert Durst, which included tracking the millionaire across several states. According to those closest to the case, during his six weeks on the run, he, quote, used at least six aliases, many of them names drawn from his past. Like those of former classmates or a handyman he employed. So weird. Very strange.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
I can't lie like that. No, I just get too confused.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
He also posed as a woman at least twice and he would dress as a woman and wore a wig to really like sell it.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Yep. During the manhunt, Mike Putnam told reporters, we really don't have any idea where he was. He wasn't accessing the bank accounts or using the credit cards we know of. He took elaborate measures to avoid capture. But then he makes mistakes like stealing a hoagie.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
We call them subs. oh is that what that is yeah i never really knew what a hoagie was yeah hoagie is not over here oh what it's a sub that's a sub durst's wife oh yeah that oh yeah everyone remember he's married uh she attempted to withdraw a cool 1.8 million dollars from the bank before investigators froze the account
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Yeah. We met a lot of Boston girlies around the town. It was fun.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
They're going to freeze your assets. A quick, casual $1.8 million. Take two. Yeah. It's not great. So the investigators froze the account. Durst had also rented a car using Morris Black's identification. Oh. But otherwise, his trip was a series of motels and truck stops as he made his way from Texas to the Northeast. But I'd call that a smoking gun. I would say so.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
In September 2003, Robert Durst finally went on trial for the murder of Morris Black after several failed attempts by his lawyer to get the trial delayed even further. So they could come up with a fucking reason. Try to come up with something. Several times, Durst's defense attorney, Chip Lewis...
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
argued that investigators had violated his client's rights when they went through the trash cans outside the apartment building in Galveston, where much of the evidence linking Durst to the murder was found. Isn't that like once your trash is outside? Yeah, it's on the street, man. It's done. Well, what are you talking about?
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
It was fun. It was. We loved it. Yeah. And it made us really want to like, we were like, ooh, looks like fun at the Wilba.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Lewis argued the police officer tried to gain what he could not do by legal means. He used the landlord as a pawn. The judge disagreed, noting that the trash cans were the property of the city, not Durst. Yeah, exactly. And the full scope of the evidence was admitted, luckily. I always thought trash was fair game. Yeah, those trash cans belong to the city, man. Yeah, you're just renting them.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Described by the press as a, quote, eccentric, and this is by the press, this is not me, He was described as a eccentric, cross-dressing New York real estate heir. Woof. Yeah. That's the press. Woof press. Yeah. Woof press indeed. Also, stop. Describe him as a murderer.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Robert Durst's trial drew considerable attention from news outlets around the country. In his opening statement, the prosecutor, Kurt Sistrunk, told the jury the case was a straightforward murder. He said, Yeah? Yeah. Oh, shit. Which makes a lot of sense. Yeah. He's been on the run, basically, from everybody.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
The defense, on the other hand, argued that Black's death was the result of an accidental shooting that occurred when, in self-defense, Robert Durst grappled with Black over the gun. Defense attorney Dick DeGaran said, how he died will not be an issue. Morris Black died as a result of a life-and-death struggle over a gun that Morris Black had threatened Bob Durst with.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
So how do you explain the dismemberment? That's what I'm wondering.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
The defense acknowledged that there were sensational and, like you just stated, grotesque aspects to the case, but reminded the jury that while Durst may have been involved, the prosecution had no evidence to support the claim that he had intentionally murdered Morris Black.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
And they're not arguing that. They're saying it was self-defense and he had to, you know, as, yeah.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
As for Durst's behavior after Black's death, like you are discussing, DeGaran said Durst was susceptible to panic and has a personality that, quote, runs from trouble.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
They're not arguing that he did that. They're just like, well, he got upset. Yeah. You know, he kind of freaked out. Panicked. He panics. He does a panic thing. Bitch, I panic all the time. I'm like, bitch, we're all panicking. We can't be saying that that's okay. This entire country is in a state of panic. You can't be telling me that that's okay after you panic.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
All of this, they argued, was the result of Durst's fears that Black was a violent man and had targeted Durst in the weeks before his death. Okay. Going into the trial, investigators in the prosecutor's office felt pretty confident that they had everything they needed to secure an easy conviction for murder. Yeah. After all, Durst didn't just shoot Morris Black to death.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
He also skillfully dismembered and disposed of his body. Then, when he was arrested for the crime, he skipped bail and fled the state. While using Morris Black's identification. Still, they couldn't get around the fact that the defense was right. The only thing they didn't have was direct evidence to prove that the shooting was intentional. Damn.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
When he was cross-examined by the defense, Cody Casales was asked directly whether they had anything to disprove Durst's claim of self-defense, and the detective simply answered, no, sir. Because they didn't. Yeah. On November 5th, 2003, the jury entered the deliberation phase, which dragged into the following day and then into the next day.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
So, you know what? Maybe that's in the future.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
On the third day of the deliberation, the jury requested the court reporter read back Durst's statement about the fight over the gun, which is like...
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
not great like you're just like oh i ask him for that yeah finally after nearly a full week of deliberations the jury emerged and they returned an acquittal stating they didn't feel the prosecution had offered enough evidence to prove the shooting had been intentional and thus left room for our favorite thing reasonable doubt i think i would struggle so much on a journey this would be a Hard one.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Because you know, but you are also being told you need to look at the evidence. Right. Did they prove... Do you have any reasonable doubt that this is not an intentional... Yeah. And it's like, ugh. Ugh. So the verdict came as a shock to the prosecution, who, despite lacking irrefutable evidence of an intentional shooting...
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
felt the circumstantial evidence had been enough to secure a conviction, which I get why they felt that. I agree, yeah. When asked whether he felt Durst was still a threat to the community, Kurt Sistrunk told reporters, Mr. Dirt is not going to be invited into my house. I love that answer. Which tells you everything.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
The acquittal may have resolved the question of murder, but Durst was still on the hook for two counts of bail jumping and one count of tampering with evidence, the latter for the dismemberment of Black's body. In December 2004, Durst accepted an offer from the DA's office in which he would plead guilty to both in exchange for a five-year sentence. That's bullshit.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
With two years credit for time served. For dismembering an entire man. Yeah, that's so fucked up. Robert Durst was paroled on July 15th, 2005 with the understanding that he would remain in the area and avoid certain locations like the apartment building where Morris Black's death had occurred. However, less than two weeks after being paroled, Durst visited the apartment building. What the fuck?
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Thus violating his parole. Why? Why the fuck did he have to go back there? Yeah. Just to be a dick. Because he's an asshole. Yeah. And as a result, he was sent back to jail to finish out his sentence and was released from prison in a year in March 2006. What the fuck? He was out free.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
It's like season three or something. Sabrina the Teenage Witch's intro gets wild. Future. Is it saying future?
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
And they were like, don't go to the place where you murdered that guy that you have no business going to and that you literally have no reason to go back to. And he was like, got it.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
No. Right. It's not. He has no reason to go back there. That's wild. He's so like... Stupid? Stupid and like... Indeed.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
So for months before, during, and after the trial, the news about Robert Durst and the murder of Morris Black spread around the country. And those reports almost always referenced the disappearance of Kathy Durst. Right. And the recent murder of Susan Berman.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
And given how sensational those stories were, and Durst's life in general was pretty sensational and wild. I'd say so. It was only a matter of time before the Robert Durst story became the subject of a film. Now, in 2008, documentarians and screenwriters Marcus Hinchey and Mark Smerling began working on a screenplay based loosely on Durst's earlier years and Kathy's disappearance.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
A few years earlier, Smerling and his filmmaking partner, Andrew Jarecki, had scored a big indie hit with Capturing the Freedmen. It was a documentary about a child sex abuse scandal in Great Neck, New York, and how the trial affected the family of the perpetrator.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Hoping to parlay that success into the world of dramatic feature films, Hinchey and Smerling wrote a dramatization of Kathy's disappearance with Jarecki attached to direct.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
The script was quickly bought by the Weinstein Company.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
And in 2010, the company released All Good Things, starring Ryan Gosling, who was playing David Marks in the film that was supposed to be Robert Durst. Okay. And then Kirsten Dunst was playing this, that David Marks character's wife, Katie McCarthy. Who's supposed to be? Kathy Durst. Kathy. I haven't seen that. Yeah.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
The title was a reference to the health food store that Robert opened in Vermont in the 70s, and the store traced the couple's relationship from their meeting in the early 70s to her disappearance in 1982. Oh.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
However, the fictional version of the story fills in the ending, where the real account remained unresolved, including the Manhattan DA's reopening of the case after reading a novel from David Mark's best friend. That's like in that film. Oh.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
The film stopped short of implying that the fictional Durst killed his wife, leaving that for the audience to decide, which is probably the best way to go about it. Yes, smart. All Good Things received mixed reviews from critics. It did pretty poorly at the box office, with most critics noting the film's inspiration offered considerably more drama than the fictional account actually did.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
They were like, the real thing is way more interesting to watch.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
And you don't want to be sensational while retelling it. Yeah. That's a hard one.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
But there was one viewer who was particularly impressed with the movie and called Andrew Jarecki to tell him as much. Don't even tell me. According to Jarecki, after seeing the film, Robert Durst called the director to share his appreciation of what he believed was an even-handed account of his life. Christ almighty.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Also, Durst, who had famously avoided the press for decades, offered to participate in the commentary for the DVD release of All Good Things. Throughout the commentary, Durst can be heard verifying the accuracy of some of the film's more violent scenes, including one in which he dismembers the fictional version of Morris Black.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
He says in the flattest, eeriest tone while watching that, this is more or less accurate. The fact that we have this man on audio so many times basically admitting to everything he did in those horrific ways. In the process of recording the commentary, Jarecki and Durst spent a lot of hours together talking, getting to know each other.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
At the time, Durst was still being investigated by authorities in L.A. for the murder of Susan Berman and by the Manhattan District Attorney's Office for the disappearance of Kathy, who had been declared legally dead by a New York court several years earlier. Under the circumstances, it would seem odd that Durst would want to attract any attention or scrutiny, but that's exactly what he did.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
In fact, Durst was downright enthusiastic in his acceptance of Durecki's offer to work on a project together about his life and legal troubles.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
He's in the middle of this shit, and he was like, let's go, girls. Attention. Yeah. The result of their collab was 2015's The Jinx, the life and deaths of Robert Durst. It was a six-episode miniseries on HBO, and it covered, among other things, the disappearance of Kathy Durst, the murder of Susan Berman, the death of Morris Black.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Assembled from more than 25 hours of interview footage, The Jinx also tells the story of Durst's troubled relationship with his own family and includes extensive and mostly unflattering interviews with his brother Douglas, who offers a counter-narrative to that of Durst himself.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Jarecki said certainly the things he's been accused of are tabloid worthy, but what's clear about Bob, if you spend five minutes with him, is that he's a deeply complicated person who cannot be summarized in a simple way. Huh. I guess you could say that. Yeah. When The Jinx premiered in February 2015, it was an immediate hit.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
I was one of those viewers. Same. Not only because of the sensational story, but also because of Durst being so fucking bizarre. He's a weird guy. There was never any question as to whether Durst was directly involved in the making of the series. He was. Yeah. Which is why his comments throughout the film are surprising, and at times... even suspicious.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Because it's almost like he forgets that he's directly involved. In fact, throughout the six episodes, Durst seems both aware of how his quirks and personality tics are perceived, and yet completely oblivious to the fact that much of what comes out of his mouth could be interpreted as... Thinly veiled admissions of guilt. Like, you're just like, what's going on?
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Some of them not even veiled at all. Throughout the series, Robert Durst maintains that he didn't kill his wife or Susan Berman, despite what people think. And Jarecki does little to question or challenge him on it.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
No, it's a secret. It's a secret. I knew it. I was like, future, I know it's not. But then all I had was future in my head, so I couldn't go to it. No, what it is is that I'm so compelling. You are.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Then the series concludes with what appears to be nothing short of a fucking bombshell admission. A full-blown confession. I remember watching this on my couch in our apartment. And John and I were like, what the fuck? I watched it right after you because I'm pretty sure you texted me and you were like, you need to watch this.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
I was like, you gotta see this. So in the sixth episode's final moments, Jarecki and Durst finish an interview, during which Durst seemed to have trouble controlling his burping.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
And Durst excuses himself to go to the bathroom. Alone in the bathroom. Still miked. Seemingly unaware that he is still miked. And he's still being recorded. Durst begins talking to himself. He was known to do that since childhood. This was not something new. It's so unsettling, though. The sum of what he says you can't understand. It's unintelligible.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
He can very clearly be heard saying, what the hell did I do? Killed them all, of course. And that's where my of course comes from. Every time Ash says of course, I just think of of course. It's just the way he says it. He says, what the hell did I do?
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
This is similar to the motherfucking sandwich that he didn't need to go steal. Yeah. In the apartment that he didn't need to go back to. Yep. Why the fuck are you saying this out loud to yourself during filming of a fucking documentary?
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
He literally is compulsive. He is. Like, he has to do these things. It's insane.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
It's the same kind of, but he has a pattern of this shit. Yeah, he does. It's a pathology. That he has every reason to not do that thing. Yeah. And that there's no, nothing compelling him to do it. Like, you do not need to do that.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Easy peasy, lemon squeezy. Don't say that. To not go to a Wegmans and steal that sandwich, just pay for it. To not go back to that apartment. Yeah. You don't live there. Do not say out loud, I killed them all, of course. And also, how do you defend that? I'm glad he did. Yeah. I'm glad he did. Of course. But I'm just saying, like, whoa. Also, like, how do you get a lawyer after that? Shit.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
So this confession shocked all of us. Sure did. In part because just one day before the episode aired, Robert Durst was arrested in connection with Susan Berman's death. Mm-hmm. The arrest seemed to confirm what viewers heard on the tape, that Robert Durst killed Kathy Durst and Susan Berman. However, the timing raised more than a few questions.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
More importantly, the interview footage for the series had been recorded over a period of years leading up to the release of the movie, or the series. In that case, Andrew Jurecki and the producers of The Jinx would have known about the confession and had said nothing to investigators.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Yeah. There was also the matter of some evidence that Jarecki had been given by Susan Berman's friend, including a letter to Susan from Durst in which the handwriting appears identical to that of the cadaver letter sent to the police right down to the misspelling of Beverly. So it got a little messy.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Maybe you are. I don't know. You just connected it to the wrong nostalgia bomb.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Yeah, like this whole thing didn't just make the team behind the jinx look bad. It made them look slightly complicit, which is like not good at all.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Like you can't hold that stuff just to get audience reactions. And you would have gotten it either way. That's what it made it look like. So the truth was a little more complicated, to be fair. Okay, okay. Okay, so they didn't want to fuck anything up. Yes, that is. Which is really bad. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
But either way, the main part of that was the future is bright.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
But they would also be very likely be called to testify in court, which would surely affect their reputations as trusted journalists. That's really tough. In the end, humanity did win out. Smerling told a reporter, we had a moral obligation and an obligation to the families of the dead to see that justice was done.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
In fact, it turned out that the producers behind the miniseries had been cooperated with investigators since 2013, two years before The Jinx premiered.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
At first, I remember it being a thing where everyone was like, oh my God, like you held this shit? But in the end, they... Not really. They did what they could do.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Lots of fun plans for the future. The near future.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Let's get into part two of Robert Durst because this guy sucks. Yeah, that's accurate. Yeah, he sucks a lot. I want to rewatch The Jinx, though. You should. It has an amazing theme song.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
There was also the matter of the supposed confession, like the whole matter of the confession itself, which it turned out was also a little more complicated than it appeared. Like many aspects of filmmaking in real life, things weren't exactly as they appeared to be on screen. Their statement about having killed them all was real.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
But the audio recording of him captured in the bathroom was actually a lot longer and like a little stranger. The full recording of Durst smuttering is this. Oh, there it is. You're caught. You're right, of course, but you can't imagine. They want to talk to him. That's good. I find them very frightening, and I do not want to talk to them. I don't know. The washer.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Well, I don't know what you expected to get, but... And then it says the rest of, and you can't hear. Don't know what's in the house. Oh, I want this. Killed them all, of course. I want to do something new. There's nothing new about that. What a disaster. He was right. I was wrong. And the burping. I'm having difficulty with the questions. What the hell did I do? The burping.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
And the burping. So to me, that's a man who knows he's caught, knows what he's done. And he's like, fuck. Knows he's pretty much given himself... Like, he's like, fuck. To me, that literally translates into fuck. That's fuck. Period. Yeah. So the producers of The Jinx had used some slightly deceptive editing to present an incoherent and...
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
you know, kind of unintelligible statement as though it were just a very clear cut confession of murder. I mean, you're making a film. Well, that's it. So it's like, I understand. So when the dust had settled and Jarecki was able to address viewers and critics' concerns and accusations of complicity, things look far less damning than they had previously appeared. It's still pretty damning.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
I think he's still pretty damning, but luckily it didn't look as damning on the filmmakers. Oh, yeah. And that's what I mean. You mean Robert Durst. That said, Robert Durst had been arrested for Berman's murder, and as it turned out, that arrest wasn't entirely unconnected to his appearance in The Jinx.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
We talked about that last one. Fresh Blood by The Eels. I think that theme song was actually in Yellow Jackets, the last episode I watched. And I said, oh, I love this song. Yeah, that song goes fucking hard. It goes hard. And the actual documentary is wild.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
So based on the information provided to them by the producers of The Jinx, investigators were able to get an arrest warrant for Durst's arrest, and he was picked up a few days later at a hotel in New Orleans, Louisiana, where he'd registered under the name Everett Ward. Huh.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Turned out that was only the latest in a series of very strange incidents involving Robert Durst. That checks. A few years earlier, he was tried and acquitted of violating restraining orders taken out by his family members.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Just a few months after the acquittal, he was arrested at a drugstore in Houston after he was witnessed urinating on a candy rack.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Real dick move. A charge to which he pleaded no contest in an incident his lawyer successfully argued was a medical incident.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
I'm just confused how you whip your dick out during a medical emergency.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
At the time of his arrest in New Orleans on the murder charge, federal agents found a large amount of circumstantial evidence suggesting he was planning to flee the country. Among other things, items found in his possession included a loaded .38 caliber pistol, Robert's passport and birth certificate, a fake driver's license, maps of the southern U.S.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
and Cuba, a large amount of cash, and flesh-colored latex masks. At the time of the arrest, the cash had been divided up into smaller quantities and placed in envelopes, which investigators believe were going to be sent to whichever location Durst planned to flee to, a belief that Robert didn't deny.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Yeah. Given the confused state he was in at the time, Robert was transferred to a secure facility where he would be treated for mental health issues before being processed by the courts. Though following that announcement, Durst's lawyer refuted the claims that his client had mental health issues, stating, quote, he is not suicidal.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
And it's like, yeah, I don't think that's what we're really worried about here.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Robert Durst had always been a peculiar, quirky man. But at the time of his arrest in 2015, questions about his mental health had become common whenever his name came up. Just a few months earlier, Douglas Durst, his brother, gave an interview to the New York Post in which he detailed some of his brother's bizarre behavior over the years.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
He said, before the disappearance of my sister-in-law, Bob had a series of Alaskan Malamutes, which is like a husky. He had seven of them and they all died mysteriously of different things within six months of his owning them. All of them named Igor. We don't know how they died or what happened to their bodies. What the fuck? That's so fucked up and scary.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
He had a series, seven of them. Seven Alaskan Malamutes, beautiful huskies, all named Igor. I'm really stuck on that piece. I'm really stuck on that.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
And they all died within six months of him having them, and they were never seen again. You don't know what happened to them. What the fuck did he do to those dogs? That's horrifying. It's so scary.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
And Douglas Durst made it clear in that interview and others that he believed Robert killed the dogs as practice for when he eventually killed Kathy. Oh, my God. His brother said that. Oh, my God.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
While Robert was awaiting trial for the murder of Susan Berman, investigators in New York were ramping up their reopened investigation into Kathy's disappearance, based in part on the statements and evidence collected during the making of the jinx.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
In addition to working cooperatively with the FBI and detectives in L.A., detectives in New York received a warrant for Durst's apartment, where they confiscated a large number of documents and other items. Uh-oh. Ultimately, it took two years before Durst was deemed healthy and stable enough to participate in a trial.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
In that time, he had been treated for cancerous tumors in his throat, as well as several other health and mental health-related issues.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Investigators used the delay to gather more evidence against him and round up witnesses for the prosecution, many of whom, at least the wealthier among them, put up serious legal battles to keep themselves out of the courtroom, though none were able to successfully avoid it.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
good when durst's trial finally began in 2020 damn yeah it was only wow that's crazy for some reason it feels like that was like way longer i know the prosecution presented a very simple theory as to the motive for berman's murder according to deputy da john lewin durst eliminated berman because she'd agreed to cooperate with investigators re-examining the kathy durst case yeah pretty simple
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
The prosecution believed that Berman had known Durst killed Kathy in 1982 and had even helped him cover up the crime. That's what the prosecution stated. Berman's friend, Nick Chavin, told the jury in a pretrial hearing, Susan said to me specifically that Bob killed Kathy. Oh.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
According to Chavin, Susan loved Durst and had wanted to protect him, so she agreed to help him cover up the crime, specifically by, among other things, calling the school and pretending to be Kathy.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
And that's something Susan had disclosed to friends in the years after Kathy disappeared. So that one lingering thing that we were talking about, like who called? Yeah, who was that? Susan. That's really fucked up. The problem, according to Lewin, was that while Susan Berman may have been an incredibly loyal friend to Durst, she had a reputation as someone who wasn't very good at keeping secrets.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Also revealed in pretrial hearings was Berman's statement to friends that, quote, if anything ever happens to me, Bobby did it. Another person saying that? Yep. Lewin didn't provide details into what exactly they believe prompted Durst to kill Berman at the time, but it's not incumbent upon the prosecution to provide motive. Instead, they offered the evidence, and that's it.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Durst was known to be in California at the time of the death. Based on the testimony of Berman's friends, he had a reason to kill Susan, and they had the cadaver slash Beverly Hills letter that an independent analyst believed was a match for Durst's handwriting.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Given the extent of the evidence and the fact that the story was so well-known by then because of the miniseries, Durst's lawyers encouraged him to own up to having written the letter to the LAPD a few years before, a few days before Berman's death, because at this point he hadn't admitted it yet. Yeah, yeah.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
This was a big turnaround for the man who so long had denied having anything to do with that note, which he claimed was an indication of something that only the killer could have known. He himself said that. Still, while Durst's lawyers were willing to admit he was in the area and even in Berman's home around the time of her death... And he wrote the note.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
They steadfastly denied that he had anything to do with the murder. They said, sure. He was in the area. He was in her home. And he wrote that note. He wrote a note that said cadaver at this address, but he did not do it. Totally didn't kill her.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Nick DeGaran told the court what the note demonstrates is that the person who mailed it was aware there was a body at the house, not that the individual murdered Susan Berman. That's a wild-ass argument. That's a wild-ass argument. I hope he stretched before he made that. For real.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Durst's trial dragged on for nearly seven months, during which jurors and spectators heard a thorough overview of his personal history and the full extent of his criminal activities. The defense claimed that he... had nothing to do with the Berman murder and that the prosecution was simply trying to capitalize on the popularity of an HBO miniseries.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Defense attorney David Chesnoff said, we believe the absence of evidence is evidence that Bob is not guilty. I don't think there's an absence of evidence. The prosecutor, John Lewin, acknowledged the lack of conclusive physical evidence, but stressed that while the evidence may have been largely circumstantial, there was a lot of it. That's the thing.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Yeah, it's definitely a good one to cover, I would say, for sure. Anyway. When we last left you guys with part one, Robert Durst's wife, Kathy, has disappeared. Yeah, and he's not being normal about it. He doesn't seem like he, like after a few months, he kind of like retreated out of the spotlight. He wouldn't give another interview.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
And from very reputable sources, including the defendant himself. Well, circumstantial evidence is evidence nonetheless. Yeah. In his opening statement, he said, "'It's a long and complicated story because Mr. Durst committed a lot of crimes. As you're listening, some of the most damaging aspects of this case are going to come from him.'" Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Lewin reminded the jury Durst wasn't just in the area when Berman died. He was in her house, which he admitted. Y'all. He somehow also appeared to know there would be a body in Susan Berman's home before she was even dead. She wasn't dead yet.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Which they knew because he had confessed to writing and sending the note, which was post-dated before her death. Medically, they found that out. In the end, the jury sided with the DA, and on September 18th, 2021, after more than seven hours of deliberation, Robert Durst was found guilty of the murder of his best friend, Susan Berman, more than two decades earlier.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Additionally, the jury found that the prosecution had successfully proved the claim of special circumstances, specifically that Durst had been, quote, lying in wait for Berman, and that killing her effectively amounted to, quote, killing a witness. Yeah. Which is a pretty big deal. The following month, on October 15th, Durst was back in court for sentencing and victim impact statements.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Denny Marcus, one of Berman's cousins, said, "...I was robbed and my beautiful son was robbed of an absolutely extraordinary, brilliant person whose life was tragically and savagely taken." Before passing sentencing, Judge Mark Windham had his own statement he wanted to make, calling the murder a, quote, witness killing and a horrific crime, as well as a, quote, denial of justice.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Also, Judge Windham strongly rejected the defense's request for a new trial, citing the, quote, overwhelming evidence of guilt as one of the reasons. So he's like, I don't need the physical evidence. Like, there's enough. Yeah. Finally, with all the statements out of the way, Judge Windham handed down his sentence, life in prison without the possibility of parole. Bye.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
So the case against Robert Durst had been built on the theory that he killed Susan Berman in order to prevent her from sharing what she knew about the disappearance of Kathy Durst. Given that it had been a successful strategy, police in New York filed second-degree murder charges against Durst, alleging he murdered his wife in 1982. I wonder why second-degree. I don't know. It's always confusing.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
They might be claiming it was during, like, a fight. Um, okay. Yeah. According to the lead detective on the case, Joseph Becerra, the verdict in the Berman case was only one of the factors that prompted this new filing. In addition to Becerra's discussions with the L.A. district attorney, he also cited, quote, So basically he bucked himself over.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Unfortunately, Robert Durst would never see a trial for the murder of Kathy Durst. On January 10th, 2022, he died from cardiac arrest at San Joaquin Hospital in California at the age of 78. Oh, it's so frustrating. His death in 2022 brought an end to the story of one of New York's wealthiest and most bizarre criminals.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
But after decades of public interest in the saga, Andrew Jarecki felt the public was entitled to their own kind of closure. In late April 2024, nine years after The Jinx aired on HBO, the cable channel aired the sixth episode's second season of the show, which focused on Durst's life after the original series aired until his death. Oh.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
And he also stopped returning the detective's calls, which definitely made the detective suspicious for sure.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
In his assessment of the second season, New York Times critic Mike Hale concluded, "'Everyone has seen The Jinx. Everyone knows how it contributed to Durst's downfall. Everyone is in on the joke.'" And the wholesale intrusion of the show into its own narrative is not in these episodes dramatic or moving. Not a great end. Oof.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Yeah, definitely check out that first season.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Because it did contribute to getting him finally where they needed him to be.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
it bums me out that there was never true justice for kathy's murder i know that's the thing that kills because also that's his wife where is kathy i know that's the thing that bothers me the most is like where is she and he just died never telling anyone that's really fucked and killed the only other person that might know like that sucks it's really sad
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
All I can think of those is, I mean, people said Susan Berman was not a good secret keeper. She might have told someone. Does someone know? Come forward. If someone knows, you got to say it, man. You got to tell someone. You can't let Kathy Durst just go into.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Yeah, and we have like certain witnesses were now coming back and saying, actually, I don't know if I saw her when I said I thought I saw her because I saw her from the back.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Not finding out where she is. Yeah, that's awful. Or what happened. That's the thing.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Things are crumbling a little bit. So while Robert Durst seemed pretty uninterested in trying to find his wife, which in and of itself is very concerning, Kathy's friends, Gilbert Najimy and Eleanor Schwenk, had gone into way higher gear. He's retreating back. They're going into higher gear trying to find Kathy because this is their friend.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
So Najimy and Schwenk, more than anyone else, knew the extent of the abuse that was happening in this relationship at Robert's hands. And they felt, they knew the fear that Kathy had felt a lot.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
And neither of them had trusted Robert Durst's timeline of events or explanation of what happened. They just both were like, no, it doesn't add up. Which when your friends are already thinking that your husband is the reason you're missing, there was a problem. Yeah. Like there was a problem and that we should take these people seriously.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
So the problem was, though, they couldn't find any actual like solid evidence to prove he was lying or that he had anything to do with the disappearance. It was just kind of like we know what was happening and we think this is suspicious. In that way, they were like detective struck. All of them were hitting dead ends. At the same time, Robert had dropped off the map completely at this point.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
He stopped going to work, stopped returning phone calls, and stopped talking to friends. What the fuck? Where'd he go? Apparently, his friend Doug Oliver said he retreated into himself, and any messages he had for the outside world were conveyed only through his closest friend, Susan Berman.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Durst finally returned to work the following year and continued making the following year, the next year and continued. This is when he continued making like major real estate deals. So he just like jumped right back in all around the city. And they were both on behalf of the Durst organization and himself as an individual. Oh, wow. Okay. So detectives struck in the NYPD.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
They continued following any new leads on Kathy's case. But again, they were getting few and far between. And soon the case just went cold. Yeah. Now, in the years that followed Kathy's disappearance, because it's so sad, she just disappeared. Robert Durst settled into, you know, being a single guy, a wealthy Manhattan real estate developer. Really tough role to fall back into, I suppose.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
So hard, I bet. But behind the scenes, things were anything but good. Robert's lack of enthusiasm for the business, because remember, he never really wanted to enter that business.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
He wanted to like open a shop. Yeah, it's his workshop. So like he never really wanted to do this, but it's just like that was the family business and it paid a lot of money. Yeah. So he just went with it. So his lack of enthusiasm for the business and his reckless and very scandalous personal life led his father to skip over Robert and leave the company to his younger brother, Douglas.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Oh, that's a bad hit. Douglas had shown like a lot of enthusiasm for the business, a lot of passion for this world. So he was the obvious choice. Yeah. It's very succession. It is. Douglas and Robert had always had a very difficult relationship and Douglas's promotion to the head of the Durst organization only made things worse. That's which I can imagine. That would be a tense family dinner.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
This is Morbid, and we've had a good day. I know. It's been like a hectic good day. Yeah, it's a creative day, a very fun day. Yeah. Yeah, it's been a blast.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Yeah, I feel like it's very like Connor and Kendall Roy. Yeah. You know, in Succession. Go watch Succession. If you haven't watched that yet, you're missing out on fucking great television.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
I can say that with full confidence. It is in my top three shows of all time.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Yeah, the characters are... And Shiv. So good.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But it's like everybody knew that you didn't give a shit about it anyway. Yeah, that's the thing. Work a little harder. Hard work, my friends. But so this is the thing. It's like he, Kathy disappears, he retreats. He retreats even further. Then he just suddenly reappears again, tries to go hard at everything, gets this blow to his ego, retreats back again.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Like he can't handle any disruption in the path. Yeah. So Durst spent most of the 1990s drifting back and forth between Connecticut, Texas, and Manhattan. Random. In 1995, he showed up at his father's hospital at his bedside when Seymour Durst was dying, but only after his brother and sister agreed to leave the hospital so he wouldn't have to see or talk to either of them.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
If the differences are that like, which like, obviously no one knows what goes on in any one family. Yeah, the interpersonal relationships. It's difficult to tell what was happening.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
if if the if the issue the beef is just that you got skipped over for the that's what i mean the business then like you got to put it aside you know i mean like that's just what are you doing right you know like that's petty that's trivial at a time yeah when someone's dying it is it's just one of those things obviously there are other scenarios where you just you just never know like it's hard to tell but he also refused to go to the funeral
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Wow. Which is like, whoa. That's really shitty. I mean, it's gnarly.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Yeah, so I mean, again, I didn't live his life in his house. Thank goodness. So through all of his, you know, tumult, essentially, like he just couldn't get it together. The only constant in Darth's life has been who? Susan. Susan Berman. Susan. Susan. However, Berman's life in the 80s and 90s hadn't been the easiest. Oh, okay.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
She had written a few novels and even options, some of them for films, but they all kind of fell through.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
And the novels she did publish didn't sell nearly as well as she had expected them to. Oh. Despite the financial disappointments, Berman had purchased a large house in Brentwood, one of California's wealthiest neighborhoods. Yeah. At the time, she'd grown really, really paranoid of the world around her. Like she was just retreating. Okay.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
She nailed the windows of her house shut and bolted all the doors whenever she was at home. Oh, fuck. Which is like really sad. Yeah, that's like straight up agoraphobia. By the late 1990s, Berman had moved to a much smaller house in Benedict Canyon, just north of Beverly Hills.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Again, she hadn't seen much financial success, but she managed to make enough money to get by selling a few novels, producing a series for cable TV. She was doing some things. By that time, her marriage had fallen apart and she divorced her husband. So she was living alone. She was driving a 1984 car that would occasionally catch fire. Oh, you know, and constantly borrowing money from friends.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Yeah. She's going through it. Yeah, she is going through it. She's got a lot going on. The divorce, the move, the not selling the novels like she was hoping to. She's borrowing money from friends. The car is catching on fire. Like, there's a lot.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
The one thing Susan did have and knew she always would have was Robert Durst. Which I don't know if that's a prize. Yeah, I would say no. In the late 90s, Durst had been difficult to get a hold of and the two hadn't spoken in months. Okay. So that must have been tough. Finally, in August 2000, Susan sent a letter to Robert, care of the Durst organization, asking him to get in touch.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
She had needed to borrow $7,000 to buy a new car.
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Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Her 1984 one is catching on fire. But more than that, she missed her best friend and needed some support. Yeah. She was just like, I miss you. I just like need somebody who I think cares about me. Yeah, or at least did at some point. Months passed and no word came. Oh, that must have really hurt. Yeah. Then in November, a check for $25,000 arrived in the mail.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
With a note that read, it's not a loan, it's a gift, and you can always count on me. Oh.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
Yeah, so we're feeling good. Yeah, I'm trying to think if there's anything really exciting.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
It allowed her to pay off some debt, buy a car. Wow. It allowed her to climb out of a little bit of the hole she was in.
Morbid
Episode 670: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 2)
But less than two weeks later, Susan Berman was dead.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I don't know if that really should be part of your entire personality. And, like, clothes, style. Like, your likability is based on whether you're, like, obsessing over boys. And your appearance. And, like, makeup and shit. It's like, uh-oh.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
See, John and I usually like go really hard to like make the kids like a cute little Valentine's thing. I feel like when you have kids, it becomes more about that.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I have no idea what this case is, by the way. So I'm just like fully riding this way. I literally don't know what happens. I've never heard of this. Just putting that out there. So if I'm sitting here being like, good for her. I don't know if she does something later. I don't know what happens.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah, I just wanted to be clear that I'm like, I don't know what happened. No, honestly, good.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
like the holiday yeah and it becomes it becomes like super fun again because like it becomes like super kid again yeah that's always fun i know the magic of all the holidays like yeah obviously like christmas is like insane when you have kids but even just like valentine's day and saint patrick's day even yeah like we so i always um like our bathroom that they brush their teeth in that's like essentially like you know the kid bathroom yeah it like because they've demolished it oh do you decorate it
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Synchronized swimming. Synchronized swimming? I could be wrong. Maybe it is called water ballet. Artistic swimming. So yeah, I think it used to be called synchronized swimming. Yeah. But I think artistic swimming sounds better for sure. It definitely does.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Oh, boy. Which is shitty. Well, it's also hard because he spent a lot of time, her life, basically making her feel she's not good enough for him. And now he's saying, this guy isn't good enough for you. And she's like, what? I thought you didn't even give a shit about me. She's like, what do you mean? Like, where's my standing here? Yeah. It's just a conflicting message.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Exactly. Like, you can't even pick a guy.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
He's going to let me live.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I decorate it for all the holidays. So like, and I don't go like, you know, it's not like I go nuts. Like I just get stuff like some little banners and like, you know, sometimes I'll throw like a balloon in there. Like that dollar section stuff. Yeah, like the dollar section has a lot of cool stuff. So like it's super easy to be able to do it.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Or like Michael's has a lot of stuff in case you guys are thinking of wanting to do it. Yep. The little things are what I literally just put a banner up that says be mine and some of this like tinsel like this is like red tinsel. Cute. And then I think I had like a little heart like stuffed animal on the counter. I love that. And just in their bathroom. So we do it for like everything.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Well, and it sounds like she had so many influential teachers in her life. You can tell when a kid has great teachers because they immediately are like, I want to be a teacher.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
happens exactly my kids have like this fucking amazing like the older girls have an amazing fucking teacher oh she's a queen she's a goddamn queen i wish we could like literally say her name but we obviously i would love to say her name just because she's so amazing but she's she's amazing and they one of my kids is like i want to be a teacher like i love that and it's like that's a sign oh absolutely it is the right thing yeah
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
teachers you're one who says that would be the best teacher ever oh my god yeah she's so patient yeah and sweet especially with like oh my god yeah i could go on for like an hour also if you're looking for anybody to follow on tiktok we haven't done a tiktok follow like go mr williams mr williams on tiktok his name is tell williams we love mr williams with our entire heart and soul he is a
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
fucking phenomenal follower yeah a follower follow and and he's a preschool teacher and also a therapist yeah and he does it all he does it all he really does he also does savage reads he does savage reads he's hilarious i remember watching him in the beginning of tiktok and being like i want him to be my child's preschool teacher like he was he's so good and you can tell he cares so much pre-k pause pre-k pause he always starts with that
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
go follow him because he deserves all the follows. He certainly does. He's Mr. Williams on TikTok. And you will not regret it. You will not. He's hilarious. Even if you don't have kids, great follow. Exactly. He's a great follow no matter what. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Like we try to like just throw like a little banner in their bathroom just to make like the morning exciting when they brush their teeth.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Well, you wonder what, yeah. It probably leaves some kind of mark. I fortunately did not go through it. I know. I know people who did, though, and I can't. If you're going through it, I'm really sorry. Yeah. You'll get on the other side, I promise. It's one of my biggest fears, like, when I do end up having kids. Well, people don't take it, like, I feel like it doesn't get taken seriously a lot.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
When you try to get help for it. It's scary. It's very scary.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
It's so easy. Yeah. And it's, they love it. Yeah. And we do like, you know, we do a leprechaun toast for that. Like where we just put like Lucky Charms and like frosting on toast. Yeah, that's fun. So they get to have like a wild ass breakfast. That's the shit I can't wait for. It's fun. And then like I stayed up until 2 a.m. last night making, because I got a cricket.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah, like truly negative, like he's abusive or something like that.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
By the sounds of it, I'm just like, you know, don't care what everybody else thinks, Jim. I feel like he needs like a high five. I want to take him out for a burger.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I'm like, you know what, Jim? Like there's these things called book nooks that you can make. I think you would love them. There you go. Sit down. He strikes me as somebody.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
The very minimal amount I know about Jim, I think he would fuck heavy with a book nook. And I'm saying that as somebody who fucking loves book nooks. I sit down and do them at night. I love that. That's not a read on book nooks. No, it's not.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
This bitch is a cricket enthusiast. It is fun as fuck. When you figure out how to do it, it is so satisfying. And so I stayed up until 2 a.m. I found they had like the girls already had like plain pink shirts, like long sleeve shirts that they never really like grab or they're just sitting in their drawer. And I was like, oh, I can bedazzle these. Let me make this a shirt you want to wear. Yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
gonna work and maybe he didn't want a divorce so it probably got kind of gnarly then messy yeah but it's like when she won't even say like a bad thing about the guy it's like yeah feels like he just wasn't a bad guy that's what i think didn't really work yeah they just weren't meant to be i don't think they were meant to be no it doesn't sound like that and like obviously there are relationships where like it's your high school sweetheart and it works out but like for sure not all the time but it's a tough one and the older you get and the more life changes you you can change a little bit with this yeah yeah
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And I'm sorry. I think about how rad it must be to be a grandparent all the time. All the time. Because, like, I love being a parent. Yeah. Like it's fun. It's obviously it's like hard. Well, that's the thing. It's so fucking fun. But when you're a grandparent, you don't even have the hard stuff. It's being a parent without any of the responsibilities.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
So it's just really like, you know, which I guess there's your answer right there. It's like if you like being a parent, my goodness, you're going to love being a grandparent because it takes away any of the stress that you even were fine with. But it doesn't sound like he loved being a parent. But he did not like being a parent. But it's like, damn. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Sat up until 2 a.m. making them little Valentine's Day shirts, and they were psyched this morning. Aw. So it was, like, and then I made their lunches all, like, heart-themed. Shut up. Like, I got these little heart, like, cutters for their sandwiches, and they make them, like, into Uncrustables, so they'll, like, seal off the sandwich. They're really cool.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
You can find them on, like, anywhere, really. I fuck so heavy with an Uncrustable. And it's fun to make your own because you can make it different shapes and stuff. Yeah, you can put whatever you want in there. It just makes like a fun lunch. And then like I just got some like heart-shaped shit and like pink stuff and all that.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I was like, okay. It's a backhanded compliment. I kept wondering if you could keep up with the pace. Like, okay. That would be my, all right. That's very condescending. It also... Oh, we get it. Like, oh, yeah, you're so quick-witted. You're such a hot shot. Like, I wonder if you can keep up with me. Oh, fuck off. Yeah. Very different time. I don't love that.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
No, I didn't do that this morning because I did a trail mix instead of strawberries today. But it was like a pink-themed trail mix. Hell yeah, brother. Yeah, it was fun. Let's go. It's a lot of fun. And then John usually, and I always forget, he'll get me flowers. Oh, yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
All right. Like I saw this coming, but like I would have talked you out of it.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah, he is. That's fucking molasses thick. Yeah. That he's laying it on. It's giving.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Like he'll have them delivered and then I end up forgetting and being like, oh, we don't, because we're always like, we don't do anything. I know. Like, why'd you do that? And he's like, I have to. No, it's relatable.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. Usually it's as you get older and as you like kids come into the picture or even if they don't, I feel like it just becomes one of those, like, it's a nice day. Yeah, it's just fun.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I know this whole letter writing thing. I'm like, wow, this is so much more like passionate. Yeah. And dramatic. Yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
She just raised her eyebrows at me and Mikey, and Mikey is shimmying right now. Which is exciting.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. This just doesn't sound like this doesn't sound good.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
No matter what, you both have to be on the same page with what your relationship is.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Guys, I stopped getting Botox. Ash makes expressions.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. Yeah. So like it comes off as this very like, wow, like they're so forward thinking and they're kind of like removing boundaries to make this work for them. And it's like, but it's not.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
It's not working for half of them. You know, like one half of them is completely compromising while the other one is not at all.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
This feels like desperation.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
It's actually, it would be awful if they weren't like this. It's like that is like the most... Like, desperate. Please just believe me that this is totally fine and that I would hate this any other way. To say, like, somebody who's selfish is the best kind of person to be around. No. They're actually, they're the worst kind of person to be around. That's just, like, diabolically untrue.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. And I just, you feel, it really is like... It's like a form of Stockholm syndrome.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
There's a lot of women. I was going to say, and on the flip side, there's a lot of women who are super selfish.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Hell yeah. Well, we have, you know, this is an exciting day and bitch. It's been an exciting week or two. Yeah. So I'm without words for what's happening this week. Retweet. So the last episode, you guys probably noticed that Andrew McMahon was on the show. Fucking wild. Andrew McMahon from Something Corporate, Jack's Mannequin, Andrew McMahon in the Wilderness.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. And I think I'm looking at it probably, he's not looking at it through an emotional lens. No. So it's not a lot of work. No. Because there's no heavy lifting in the emotional department. And he's kind of getting everything he needs out of it. Having his cake and eating it too. So it's like, for him, it's really not a lot of work. He's not carrying on full-blown love affairs with people.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
You know what I mean? It sounds like. No, he kind of is. Or like... His version of a love affair, which is just, to me, it sounds like the flowery language and everything kind of comes naturally to him. Like he's a, the charm thing, like.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Like he knows what he needs to do to keep it going for as long as he wants to keep it going.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Because it's pure speculation because, you know, I don't know him.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
It's like he... Because I'm like, is he just trying to like abide by the quote unquote open relationship of it all and be like, you need to know when I am becoming. Because who knows if they did talk about a thing. And again, pure speculation. Possibly had a conversation. Maybe they had a conversation where it was like, if you are getting serious about someone, I need to know. Yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Like you need to tell me. So maybe he's like, I'm getting the most serious. That's absolutely true.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Some relationships, like these kind of toxic- They're addictive. Style relationship, that's the thing. They become addictive. Yes. And you become addictive- To both parties. Yeah. To the- The drama. The back and forth and the drama and the love bombing when you make up and how everything's great. And then the ups and downs become this ride that you just can't take yourself off of. Yeah, exactly.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
All of the above. You know, posters when I was 16 in my room. Yes, those as well. I have a Something Corporate tattoo. It was my first tattoo I ever got. He came here to the stew. We had such a blast with him. He flew from California here. We went out to dinner. We got to hang at the studio. He was amazing. Shout out to Andrew. He's just like a pal. I know.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Anyway. I just know this. I know this. Yeah. I know this relationship. Yeah. I'm listening to it and I'm like, ugh. It's sad. And the desperation on the other side, that's rough.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. I mean, she grew up with somebody who was a man.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Who never made her feel like she was enough and who she had to always constantly... beg and fight for the attention or any kind of like pat on the back or any kind of compliment. And it's like, it does carry into, you know?
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And sometimes you don't even need to have that kind of upbringing or anything like that to fall into that. No. You know what I mean?
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Thinks I'm the bee's knees and always told me I was the bee's knees and like was great and is great and remains great and will be great forever. And I still dated somebody and there was a similar kind of relationship where it was like I was constantly trying to hold on to this awful thing.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Which was literally like, I have control of the situation kind of thing. So it's like, you don't even need to have that background. But when you have that background, I'm sure it's... If that was... And I'm only thinking of my own thing. Yeah. If that was hard to get out of for me, who has no... psychological reason to be trapped in that way of thinking.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
To have a background and a trauma that builds upon that, that's keeping you there, must be like being in quicksand.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
It's difficult. But it's hard, yeah. It is because, I mean, I didn't understand, like my John, I didn't understand why he was being so kind.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
It can be a little jarring at first because you're like.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Well, that's why I'm like, I'm like, everyone listening. Yeah. You deserve it. You deserve it. If you think you don't deserve it and you're being like, this person's too nice. I don't deserve this. You deserve it.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
So shut up. Yeah. Everybody deserves some kind of love. Shut up.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Like, immediately, I was like, wow, I do feel like I've known you since I was 16. You kind of have. And I've known him since I was six, if we're going by that logic. Yeah, it was great. It was very funny because, like, he was telling us that he listens to the show, so, like, hopefully you're listening now. Hi, Andrew. Because it was very... Like, surreal to me. Oh, yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Well, yeah, because I just feel like it's just necessary, man.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
We're trying to, I'm trying to bring more positivity. More light. Around everywhere. Yeah. You know? We need it. The world needs it. Yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I know. We're really going off. It's like old school.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I was just, I was like, they were so wily back then. Like, they were just like... Just do meth about it. And when you think about it, this is the 70s.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
We're all thinking of it in like 2000. I think of everything, yeah, 50 years ago. Yeah, damn. Because I always think the 90s were 10 years ago. So it's like this is hard for me to comprehend.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Because I was such a big, like, something corporate fan when I was younger, and I still am, and Jax Mannequin, Andrew McMahon in the wilderness. And it's funny that, like, to be in that phase of life and then to sit with him and talk about being parents together is... Like, surreal in a way I can't describe.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Like, 16-year-old Elena, if you told her you're going to sit in your house or at dinner with Andrew McMahon and talk about parent shit together, I'd be like, what are you talking about? Like, I'd be like, what? Cannot compute. Like, what are you talking about? It was just, it was really lovely, and he was lovely, and it was a great experience. Yeah, and it was a fun episode. And we appreciated it.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Oh, damn. I'm like, girls, why do you want this? Yeah, it's like, girls, that's when you do what I did. You band together. You gang up. You get those girlies together.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
A very fun episode. We talked about Dancing Plagues. If you haven't listened to it. Go check it out. It's, you know, it's interview and it's also we talk about some like funny, like crazy Dancing Plagues of history. And he did an interview. He had great answers. Oh, absolutely. It's a great episode. Inviting nuns. And we talk about fucking the devil a lot. So you should definitely listen to it.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Wow. Yeah. Also, what are sex lessons? I don't know.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
That's not even a good like, hey, you should take some sex lessons. Like, I'd be like, that's stupid.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
That's all I can think of.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I guess so. Maybe there's more. But what a bad... That feels like something you say when you ran out of... You didn't plan ahead. Yeah. You didn't plan your insult in. Yeah. Why don't you take some sex lessons? Stupid. Where? Okay.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
You gotta end the relationship then. If he's taken another woman's side, he's declared. You've heard all you need to hear. Move forward. He quiet quit. He kind of, yeah, he absolutely, he like loudly quit. Yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I liked your version though. What did it say? Rotodile? Rolodex? Oh, we had a Rolodex at my office house.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
You know, like a regular episode. Regular episode. Doing butt stuff with the devil or fucking the devil. So that was fucking amazing. And I hope you guys enjoyed that episode a lot. And, you know, hopefully someday we have him back on because it was a blast. Yes.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Fuck that. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing's worth this, everybody. It's not. Nothing and no one is worth this. Yeah. No. Feces on my clothes, I'm out. Yeah. That's where it is. Personally, mine is way before that, but your boundaries should be there. Yeah. That should be really when you say, you know what? We did what we had to do. We said what we had to say. This is not fine anymore.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
If it's getting to a point where shit is getting smeared on my clothes, I'm going to go. Rule of thumb. To a point of feces, I'm not. Peace out. I'm not. I am ride or die until feces become involved.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Andrew, if you're listening, you do have to come back.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I feel like the pressure cooker is... It's strategically placed. It's on. And I think it's coming. Yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Tell me there's not a ton of feces here.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
So weird that you joined us for our bonus episode that's going to come out tomorrow on March 7th. And it's going to be a fucking banger. Oh, oh. Please stay with us even though we said feces a lot. Feces is better.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Not our hands. He's like, no, thank you. He's like, I think I'll not come back.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
If you guys have seen the movie Talk to Me, which if you haven't, go watch it because it's an Australian horror film and it's fucking brilliant. A24, right? I think it is, yeah. Is it? Yeah. Yeah, it is. Right? I was like, wait. There's a hand in it that is like a main plot device of the movie. And we have the hand in the office. Yeah, it's fine. And we've been having people sign it.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Like we had Bridget sign it when she came. And we were going to have Andrew sign it because we're trying to have all our guests sign it. And we forgot. So now you have to come back. So we'll set that up. You don't have a choice. We'll have our people call your people. So that happened. That was amazing. And then we have... Another amazing thing happening.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
You guys are getting a bonus episode this week. In fact, tomorrow it's coming out wide to everybody. Isn't it wide and? It's a simultaneous release, so everyone's getting it at the same time. It's a bonus episode on top of our two episodes. Happy Valentine's Day. Happy fucking Valentine's Day, because guys... Well, I guess that'll be later, but... This is a fucking banger of an episode.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. You're gonna have to see if I survive this one, because... That's all we can say. I'm very excited to record it. We're gonna be recording it in the next few days, and...
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
it's a big deal so like be on the lookout if you're listening to this episode right now set an alarm know that tomorrow in the future tomorrow a banger of an episode is being released to everybody as a bonus big things are happening it's our gift to you and also a gift to me
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
She did not go home. Yeah, I did not. I went big. It's wild. So be on the lookout for that. It's very exciting. Very awesome. This has been a week that I can't quite grasp. I don't think you ever will.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Mary Margaret just seems like a good girl name.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I love Valentine's Day. Not because, like, we do anything, really.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I was going to say none of those things sound good at all. No. But go off.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I also think that's such, like, get it together. Yeah. Whenever adults, like, go off the handle at the smallest thing, I'm like... I don't know. Children can figure it out. So why can't you? We don't tolerate that from children. So I don't know why we're tolerating it from adults.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. Just like figure out emotional regulation, man.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Like, his feelings of unfulfillment kind of thing.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
It's so sad that, like, children just have this natural thing of loving their parents, even when their parents are, like, so awful to them. You know what I mean? Like, it's like... It's almost sad.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I hate that idea of kids like trying to measure up to each other. Yeah. In a family.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
She's being programmed to. Yeah. That's her whole life is trying to please a man.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Hey weirdos, Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200 plus of the world's best. That's why Wirecutter calls it an invaluable gift. Gift unlimited learning. Learn from any Masterclass instructor anywhere on a smartphone, computer, smart TV, or even an audio mode. And the classes really do make a difference.
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Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
88% of members feel that Masterclass made a positive impact on their lives. I use this, and you should too. I've been taking a class about the power of storytelling with LeVar Burton. I'm talking reading Rainbow, ladies and gents. And also a creative writing class with Margaret Atwood. Yes, you heard that right.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
It has been such an amazing thing to hear from some of the best about what their process is and to get inspired by honestly straight up icons. It really gets the creative juices flowing. I highly, highly recommend it. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com slash morbid. That's 15% off at masterclass.com slash morbid.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Masterclass.com slash morbid. So dad is on the phone and has a task for us to complete, and we must follow his instructions exactly as they are given to us. These instructions were as follows. Call the Pizza Hut in Lakeside. Ask for the manager. Explain we are the daughters of one of the officers that just hauled ass out of the restaurant. Request for delivery to the following address.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Don't actually remember it, so let's just say 1234 Crazy Street in East County, San Diego. stress the fact that whomever delivers the pizza is not to pass the first patrol car on the block under any circumstances. That part was extremely important.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Now at this point, my sister and I are following these instructions to the very letter. As this whole situation is freaking us out big time. Everything about it was just off and strange. An hour, maybe two, go by and dad calls again. Pissed. He said he gave us specific instructions and they needed to be followed and they were not. Oh.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Now he has a quote-unquote mess to deal with and doesn't need this today. Now we're not only confused, but we're also scared. Our dad only yelled at us if we broke something while fighting in the house, so getting chewed out by him was not standard operating procedure. We continue to wait for our dad to get home, all while trying to figure out what the hell is going on. Several more hours go by.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Finally, our dad gets home from work and apologizes to us, saying he's sorry for yelling. That's good parenting.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
That he stopped by the Pizza Hut prior to coming home and spoke with the manager and that she told him we did follow his exact instructions and that she is very sorry her dumbass employee can't follow simple instructions. All right. The specific instruction of not to go past the first patrol car. Why was this important, you might ask?
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Well, it turns out the delivery address was a few doors down from a murder scene. Uh-oh. So this is what went down. On this Christmas Eve, 1991... Also, this is the most early 90s parenting ever. Truly. While sitting down for lunch, a call came out over the radio of shots fired, man down. This is when my dad and his fellow patrol officers on duty ran out of the restaurant to get to the scene.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Once they arrived, they find out that two tweaked out people had been fighting out front of one of the houses on Crazy Street. At some point, person A went into his house and left person B outside in the yard. Person B was not done fighting. He was like...
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
He said, I still got energy and found something to stand on to look through a front window of person A's house where he was met with a shotgun blast straight to the face. Oh, my God. Holy shit.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Fell straight back into the yard, missing most of his head and face, human debris all over the front yard. Why the upset phone call, you may ask? Well, the delivery driver did not follow instructions, walked right past the first patrol car, under the yellow tape, and right up to my dad. Oh, no.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
When my dad sees him, he asks in a very direct, forceful manner, what the fuck do you think you're doing? Get behind the tape now. Stupid delivery kid makes some joke about how word is this is a crime scene and that someone might get shot, might have got shot. And my dad responded by saying, yeah, that guy right there. And pointed to the dead dude a few feet away.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Get out of here. Who do you think you are? Whatever you see is your own fault at this point.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
At this point, the delivery driver almost dropped the pizza. Started screaming, throwing up, and basically having a massive panic attack. Which is the thing our dad, quote, didn't have time for right now. In all fairness, dumbass should have followed directions. And what asshat thinks it's okay to cross under yellow crime scene tape because, quote, I want to see what's going on. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Keep it weird, my dudes, but not so weird you still want lunch while working a murder scene, and therefore have your kids get you delivery. P.S. It was pizza for all the law enforcement officers on scene, not just our dad. They're a whole group of weirdos that I've known my whole entire life. Lord help us. What a 90s tale. That was an amazing 90s tale. I've never heard of a more 90s father.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
That was great. And I love your dad. Oh, man, that's great. I bet your dad is awesome. Yeah, definitely. As he got older, he got awesome. Yeah, definitely.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Welcome to Dibrom. Dibrom. This is different. We switch places, you know? It's Manic Monday instead of Freaky Friday. Yeah, it's Nuts Monday. Oh, this is uncomfortable. We hate it. Everyone around us has a different opinion.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Oh, and hearing the clanging of dishes while the lights are pitch black. Yeah, that's horrifying. No, no. Makes me think of The Sixth Sense. Yeah. That scene.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
I walked downstairs and Sydney barked and growled at me and ran at me like, who are you intruder walking into my house? Because I don't, let's be honest. You don't look like. I don't look like Ash. I don't look like you. I look like various things.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
That is terrifying. I love that. I love that. I love that that was a literal ghost Hanukkah party in the middle of the night. Yes. Like they were literally like, hey, hey, just can I come in?
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
I love just... Never figured out what that was. No chalance to be found.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Yeah, that scares me. I love a shared hallucination slash dream. We both, have you ever had one?
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
I know, you would think it would be the most spooky. Yeah, right? I feel like the... Oh, no. Oh, girl. I feel like the extremes of...
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
of the house are always the spookiest yeah the bottom and the top yes things in the middle are usually just what they are yeah you know just like the meat of the meat the meat of the sandwich the bread is the scariest yeah the haunt hoagie that's the meat in the middle that your brain just did some shit that was i liked that the haunted hoagie yeah tm we're putting it on a shirt someday yeah i like it someday
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
There's nothing, Evelina. No. Ash even put bronzer on me. Yeah, of course they did. For the first time.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
I love that she's just telling her husband this. She's like, I'm going to be real. I'm going to be Frank. I'm going to be Francis with you right now. That's not dad. It's never my dad. It's never going to be my dad. Never was my dad.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
It's me, Margaret. It's me, Emma. Good vibes, though. I like the good vibes. I love that a lot. That was a great story. I love it. Emma, you rule. And that was amazing. I'm trying to see. I'm going to move past Christmas to another holiday. What's the holiday? Just because this one involves a foot. So I feel like it's necessary.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Listener tales that time we found a foot on the 4th of July. Okay. I mean, how can I not go to that one? All right. Well, let's go to this. Hey, weirdos. I'm Nicole. And yes, you can use my name. Shout out to my cousin Kayla, who is a fellow listener and also on the weirdest river trip of our lifetime. I mean, I really hope it doesn't get any weirder than this.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
okay first a little background every year my family floats the river near my grandparents house for the fourth of july that's fun for those of you who aren't from the midwest me floating the river usually involves putting in upstream on a local river with some type of flotation device or small boat you get to enjoy the beautiful scenery typically hot weather and at least for my friends and family partying your way downstream until you reach your predetermined destination
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
All right. Don't worry. We always designate a driver or have a pickup ready. Don't drink and drive, my friends. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Great, great. Great, great. Our family usually uses a combination of canoes tied together, inflatable tubes, and kayaks. Oh, that sounds fun. That does sound fun. This particular trip for normal paddlers would be three to four hours with short breaks. That sounds like a lot. My arms hurt right now from that.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Me too. However, when 90% of the adults are highly intoxicated and you're stopping at every sandbar for pee breaks, we usually expect six to seven hour trip. No, no. We had roughly 20 people on this year's trip with kids, seven kids under eight years old, one to two coolers in each canoe, stereo hooked up and old rock jams blasting. This is my happy place.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Most of my favorite summer memories have been made in this section of the We're going to Google it. We're going to Google this one.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Yeah. Hold up. Hold up. We're going to have Google say it to you.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
So, most of my favorite summer memories have been made in this section of the Makoketa River. Makoketa. Makoketa. Quite honestly, this included, and I feel this is a safe space for me to say that given what happens next.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
So back to the trip in question. About 45 minutes into our seven-hour float, we all have a solid buzz on when my cousin, floating ahead of the group in his kayak, notices a boot floating just beneath the surface of the water. The water is muddy, but pretty clear this time of year. He tells my brother, who's slightly closer to what he assumes is just a stuck boot.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Thinking he had just found a random shoe, my brother grabs the boot out of the water, and I shit you not, there is an entire tibia fibula covered in a dirty sandy sock sticking straight out of the tied boot.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
followed up with that's what you said you were like nailed it you did you nailed it nailed it nailed it so um oh my god that's oh my god that's crazy what the fuck shocked at the sight of a human fucking leg my brother dropped the boot back into the water not today and honestly i can't believe him we floatin
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
The two guys stared at each other for a minute and then yelled for our parents who were in a group of canoes tied together nearby. And all the commotion, the music gets turned down. They were like, turn down the tune. They were like, we need to see. And my mom yells to me that they found a foot.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Now, at this point in time, I was in my own world about 20 feet behind the group talking with my friend. When I finally figured out what she was saying, I was positive this was just my family playing a joke on me. I would think so, too. Me, too. Of course I paddled over with my kayak to see what was going on, because even if it was a joke, I needed to see what they were talking about.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
As I'm paddling downstream, I spot this dirty boot floating along near the canoes. After making sure my five-year-old wasn't in eyesight, oh my god, I pulled the boot out of the water, and sure enough, there is a fucking human leg hanging out of this boot. The thought of that image is just too much. I dropped it back in the water because, like, what do you do? I don't know.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Now the group is yelling at me, half saying to leave it and the other half saying to call 911. I look over at my mom who nods at me as if to say, do it. Being my morbid self. Thanks, ladies. You bet. I pull the boot back out of the water and throw it on my kayak. Stop it. I'm proud of you. So here I am, 50 minutes into a seven-hour float with a right lower leg on my kayak. Oh, my God.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
No one had cell service. And to be honest, we were a little worried the DNR wouldn't be cool with our general lack of life jackets and planned alcohol consumptions. It's planned and you have a driver. There you go. After talking with my uncle, who is an EMT, and my mom, a nurse, we decided I would paddle back upstream to the nearby sandbar where we could easily reach later via gravel road.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Again, I already have a buzz on and my ass had to now paddle upstream.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
I'm not an athletic girl, so this took a bit. Once I reached the beach, I set the foot down in a clearly visible place I could later identify for the police. The whole time I'm paddling, all I could think was... Oh, my God, I can't wait to tell Layton. I'm obsessed. Because even though we're not best friends in real life, we are in my head. And now we are. We are in real life.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
As morbid of a discovery we made, our family still enjoyed a full day on the river and had a blast. You guys are reckless, and I love it. I love it. I would be so worried that the rest of the mans was somewhere underneath us. Which would show us, yeah. After we got off the river at 6 p.m., my uncle called in our discovery.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
We sobered up a bit and went down to the scene to give our statements to the sheriff's deputies. Picture a fairly intoxicated sunburnt mother of two with a morbid fascination for all things true crime trying to set the scene for the deputy like I'm some type of professional who doesn't just listen to a lot of podcasts and watch too many murder documentaries. This is actually wild.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
I probably should have said that, but I don't remember that. That's okay. I can't do it. I can't be Ash.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
This is a story and I love it. I would pay money to watch that body cam footage.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
The next morning, my brother went out to the scene and showed investigators specifically where we had pulled out the boot. While he was there, they dug into the sand and found pieces of denim. A few weeks later, we found out they excavated the area and did recover a body. So he was floating with you. He was floating with you.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Yes. After a few months, they confirmed the body was that of a missing man from the area who was last seen in November 2020. Damn. Even though this whole experience was wild and a story I will tell around the bonfire for years to come, it was not lost on any of us the impact our discovery made. I only hope we brought this man's family a little justice.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
At this point, there has never been an official cause of death release that I know of. And although there's lots of rumors for what may have happened, out of respect for this man's family, I won't speculate. Good on ya. Sometime when I'm not running on fumes, I will send in my best ghosty stories. Please do. Please do. Turns out I'm fairly sensitive in spirits good and bad. I almost said fairly.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Turns out I'm fairly sensitive. That's so me. That's very you. In spirits good and bad, really dig my vibes. Both my children are similar and keeping our home cleared and cleansed is a constant battle. About two years ago, I saw several mediums and ended up needing to perform a ritual to remove a negative attachment from a past life. Send over that information. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Things have gotten much easier since then and my life has transformed into something truly beautiful that I didn't know was possible. Oh, that just made my heart so full. Love you both and look forward to seeing a new episode every time they pop up. Thank you for all the time and energy you put in the podcast. It has gotten me through many long work days and house cleaning days.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
I'm obsessed with just the piece of scotch tape with a raisin hanging from it.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
That shit is right. That shit is so right. Because if my kids made that, I'd be like, let's put it on the tree.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Like, can we have a sign? And then, boom. And immediately, his ornament. And like, like Katie just said, there was six kids in that family. Yeah. Of all the ornaments. There's billions of ornaments. Yeah. Yeah. All over. I mean, our tree is three kids and it's like a billion ornaments. I can't imagine six throughout the years in that age for that one to fall. That's special.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
That's really, really special. That's awesome. That's a Christmas motherfucking miracle.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
I love nails. You love mail. I love a manicure. So this was amazing. It was so much fun. Loved it. Can't wait to get out of this. Yes. Love you. Love you so much. Can't wait to see you in something like this. Back at you. Do you want this? Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah, I do. But yeah. So we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
But not so weird that you find a severed foot while you're just trying to float and get a little buzz on on the 4th of July. And also keep it a little weird that you get this lighthearted ornament that's a sign from your brother. And also he's playing karate movies in the background because that's fun. And there's some good karate movies, especially films from the 80s and 90s.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
I love karate movies. Karate movies forever. Also, grandma being the boogin, keep it that weird, because boogins are weird and that's awesome. Send pizza to a crime scene, but only if someone requests you to do so. And follow the fucking instructions. Also, ghostly Hanukkah parties? Sign me up. Let's go. Where's the lock keys? I love it. Keep it that weird.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
All right. You've never flipped your weave off, so. I haven't ever flipped my weave off. I'm crying. I'm literally crying. But that's because I'm an empath.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
The abolitionist mission isn't done until every prison is empty and shut down.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
all right all right this one is oh by the way merry chrysler and happy uh oh wait you wouldn't say that merry christmas happy yule happy yule there you go happy yule is what elena would say i hope your holidays have been so gorgeous i hope your holidays have been so gorgeous that really is a
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Oh, this is an unhinged one, everybody. That's what it's supposed to be.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
It's like boogen, boogen. Boogen, boogen. Boog out. It's lost all meaning. You never had one in the beginning. I was going to say, I didn't know. Anyway. I lost another nail.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
That is, and that's very Christmas. That is so Christmassy. It's a very Christmas ghost story where it's like, I'm the boogin. It's Christmas tomfoolery. I think, I feel like boogin is a thing. Like, that's a thing that... They do call spirits, I think.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Your turn, Ash. So Ash's turn, and it's going to be Listener Below.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
listener tales christmas edition christmas and it says attached you will find a puttafa of my christmas edition listener tales i hope you enjoy i will who knows all right it says hello my spooky obsessed friends love you and your podcast so much i love you thank you i don't know if i can say your name yet so i'm not going to say it don't say it yet All of the congratulations on all of the things.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Marriages, new and old, kids, cats, books, giving me nightmares for a week, etc. Thanks for all that. The last is not an easy thing to do, so truly congrats. How, you may ask, was it the John Wayne Gacy episodes? No. How about A Spooky Road? Also no. Dennis Rader? Hell no. The scariest thing about that asshat is his hairline. That's true. What then? That failed pirate Carl fucking Pansram.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
No, he was creepy. He was crazy. Yeah. Can't put my finger on why he tripped the night terror switch. However, I did not sleep for several nights. Thank you. He was a wild one. So I get that one. No, he really was.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
He's an underrated scary one for sure. My name is Leanne. Go ahead and use it. There you go. Today I'm offering you an example of my dad's questionable parenting choices in the form of a listener tale Christmas edition. Let's get after it. This is the story of when my dad had my sister and I get pizza delivered to a murder scene. First, a bit of context of how my dad just is.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
He and our mom split when my sister and I were very young, and my dad never remarried. So his gauge on all things child-related can be far from standard at times. Not in an abusive way. More of a, they are clean and alive, therefore they are just fine kind of way. Kind of like the dad in Overboard. Exactly. Just like, you know, it's fine.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Our mom moved to the Midwest and we spent our lives flying between the two. Dad in California, mom in Indiana, Michigan.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
And flying that much. It's Christmas Eve, 1991. I was 11 and my sister was about to turn 13. At this time, in his 20 years with the sheriff's department as a patrol officer, that you buried the lead there. You really did. You really did. Because when you said. To a murder scene. Get pizza delivered to a murder scene. I was like, did your dad murder someone and then call you to bring pizza?
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
That's also what I thought. This explains it. This explains it. Now we know. My dad worked days, aka the worst six months of his working life. Who works days? It is the absolute worst thing ever. Both quotes my dad firmly stands by to this day. I kind of get that. I know, I get that.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
So it's around lunchtime, and my older sister and I are sitting around the house, most likely watching absolute trash TV, because while there was never food in the house, we had all the cable channels. We were waiting for our dad to get off work to take us to our family's yearly Christmas party, when the phone rings. It's our dad, and he needs us to do him a favor.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Now, this is very odd because no matter his work shift hours, whenever he needed something from us, he would just swing by the house because we lived in his patrol area. Side note, this meant it was also okay to leave his two kids home alone while working graveyard ship because, quote, if anything happens, I will be the first to know. We live in my patrol area. I mean.
Morbid
Episode 668: The Zodiac Killer (Part 2)
Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Hey weirdos, Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
And I think she definitely... Sounds like she was a little put off by it.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
So you invited this girl to another state so you could tell her that you're dating someone else?
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
No, that makes literally no sense. That you have her travel to another state so you can tell her that you have a girlfriend.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
what is the e in pemdas that was the first thought i the first thought i had this morning i rolled over and i looked at john i said do you remember what the e is in pemdas and he was like you just opened your eyes like what do you mean and i was like how dare you assault me he literally was like what are you talking about and i was like pemdas you know how you like oh yeah but it was literally he had just opened his eyes and he was like i remember what pemdas is
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Yeah, that feels like an exercise in humiliation.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
That's what it feels like, and I'm angry.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Also, how'd your girlfriend feel about that? That you invited a girl two states, like states away.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
To come see you? Who you've been corresponding with? Like, I'm sorry, that's weird as fuck. It is weird.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Or even she might have just second guessed it on her own. Yeah, because you're taught to be like, let them do what they want. And it's like, no, sometimes in this world, you can't just. Yeah. You have to trust her.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
The world just tells people like this, like, oh, you're just being crazy. You're just being paranoid.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
You're being overprotective. And it's like, no, she's.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
That's just weird. Objectively, that's fucking weird.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Yeah, we say, okay, we got to call the cops now because everything's awry.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
And I was like, exponent. And he was like, what is happening? Like, he was like, we're not even out of bed yet. To the power of baby. But I was like, exponent, I remember it now. And then I got really happy that I remembered it. And then I was like, that was the weirdest set of events to wake up with. One thing I was really good at in school was math, weirdly.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Yeah, that's, I mean, I was not great at math. I fucked heavy with pub deaths. I'm struggling. I'm trying to help the girls with their math.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Doesn't sound like it. Police, when you hear a blood curdling scream in a cornfield, okay?
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
well that's not our math but even like the the basic shit like they started learning fractions and i was like oh fuck me right up i'm pretty all right with fractions it's not my favorite i'm figuring it out honestly i just think of baking well that's honestly i think baking has helped me because i'll like just be but the problem is when you're baking i have like a google home thing so i'll just be like
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Well, I think that's the thing. It's like we're not pointing fingers at anyone. It's just like there's some unanswered questions that it doesn't seem like had enough attention.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
That could be missing pieces to a puzzle that may not include them being part of it. Yeah. It's just like, why weren't all the pieces put together?
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Yeah, if she was barefoot, she was not planning on being gone long. No. That was a quick little walk. Little stroll. Yeah. Wow.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
I mean, that's scary that she's just walking by herself in the dark.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Barefoot. Yeah. Like that's in an unknown area.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
hey google what's like yeah how do i make like blah blah blah out of blah blah blah so you don't do like you don't exercise that part of your brain yeah see and they're doing like full-on like you know right but you know we're getting there we're learning math there you go and oh i have something to tell you guys um that's just like a fun little thing i'm not we're not being paid by this company i just really like this thing say i do too they can be a sponsor if they want to but like they're not i mean we're both very passionate they yeah so this is
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
I am a spiritual person, a magical person, a witch.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
And you have to remember, like, again, like, the stuff at the party is very, like, strange, and some of it is questionable. But you look at this, and you say, look at the Alice in Boza. Yep. And it's like, these, yeah, two people might have just decided that tonight they were going to do this. Like, you know what I mean?
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Like, if I've learned nothing from that, I've learned that, yeah, they can just decide to.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
When they see an opportunity that they feel like they can get the upper hand in, they will take that opportunity. So it does.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Her mother also said that she was very trusting and liked to chat with people.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
would kind of let stuff out like that because she believed the best in people and she may have even you know like said something about the fact that this wasn't a great night it wasn't going well yeah like i'm i want to i'm going home yeah like she's at a party where she doesn't know a lot of people yeah like who knows what was said who knows that's the thing so it's like we can look at the party goers and the party situation is like yeah there's some unanswered questions there but like this is also a very distinct possibility that yes
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
I found this in case I feel like a lot of people could use this right now just with the state of the world. It's this app that's like described as a self-care Tamagotchi. Which it literally is. Which immediately drew me into it. I said yes. And it's called Finch. F-I-N-C-H. It's so cute. And you literally take care of this little bird.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Yeah. And the fact that there's like a cornfield involved in this just makes it even scarier.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
And this is like, I don't know why cornfields just free. I mean, I know why. Yeah. Popular culture has made me fear cornfields. But I mean, yeah, it just gives it like a way more chilling quality to this whole thing.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
by doing things for yourself and like you let and it's a very good app like it's really good i've been using it for two full weeks now same and it's like actually helping me be more mindful so basically you just kind of like list out things that you would like to accomplish for the day
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
they literally give you a list to begin with and one of those things is get out of bed so it's like you you don't have to shoot for the stars like it's and you can check that off i got out of bed and it gives you like a yay you did it and so like i have like you know drinking a certain amount of water and making sure i do that like read for 10 minutes write for 20 minutes like make sure i have all these little like you know and you can say like you know brush your teeth
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
yeah some of mine are like home-cooked meal like yeah eat dinner at home some of them are like i have put one item away that is not in its place because like with kids things just get wild and you know and so doing that is like something that can start you on like organizing somewhere one of them is smile at yourself in the mirror I love that. Which actually really, it sounds weird.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
And it sounds crazy, but it can bring you up a little bit. Yeah. And not just like smile at yourself in the thing. Definitely not. It's like look at yourself and genuinely smile at yourself in the mirror and it will give you a little boost of like. Chip Skylark in the mirror, babe. There you go. Like do it. Yeah. Your shiny teeth and you. It's true. I have turn off notifications for an hour.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Yeah, that's New York. Get it fucking together. That's weird. Get it fucking together. That's suspicious. That's real fucking suspicious.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Why the fuck? Why? Yeah. Are you kidding me?
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
And it's wild to me that they're like, you know, you look shady. So if you're not covering something up, guess what? You look like you're covering something up. You look shady. So it's like you should probably move this forward so that you can stop everybody from thinking you did something fucked up. Yeah, exactly. Because right now, I think you did something fucked up.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Yeah, I usually do that, but I literally like...
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Honestly, everyone annoy the shit out of them until they do this.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
If you don't want to look shady, then let them do it.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
phone upstairs don't even oh yeah do not disturb is my shit especially on the weekends if you can't get in touch with me i'm on do not disturb i have take a short walk without distractions i have my kids my hour walk every day on mine and you so like you check them off and it gives your little bird energy and your little bird goes on adventures every day and then tells you about it at the end of the day they discover something new yeah and it's just like
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
So it'll be right at the bottom of this episode in the show notes. You'll be able to see it and there'll be a link. So you can click it and then also again like Ash said in the socials we'll do it because
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
That must be the most frustrating thing in the entire world.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Just give it a shot. What the fuck are we doing stopping murders from being solved through red tape? Fuck that. Yeah, it shouldn't even be a thing.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
damn i want this case to be solved i want them to submit that dna i want that to at least be put into motion yeah it's gone nobody's saying that it's like that 100 it's gonna work but why the fuck not try why not try why not try and like hey
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
politicians and everybody and whoever's like red taping this if you're listening her dad died without knowing what happened to her her mom shouldn't have to die without knowing what happened to her daughter and what if this was your kid like her mom said what if would you want that dna sitting on a shelf and just because a red tape and bullshit bureaucracy yeah it doesn't get submitted to a pioneering lab that could potentially give you the answers you need come would you be fine with that because you'd be like well like was that what you would do no
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Like, no. You wouldn't. Come on. If it was for you, you'd be slicing through that red tape. Exactly. Because it's not yours. You don't give a shit.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Who did it? Let's go. Let's get this moving.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
It's a cute little thing. It might help you just, like, check off some little things that you would like to make habits out of or try to just, you know, make yourself feel good.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
You're powerful as fuck. We can get this shit to happen. And you get shit moving and you get shit done. One thing. And we've seen you do it before.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
You're badass motherfuckers. And you give a shit, so do it. Exactly.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
And it's turning, like, healthy things into routines. Yeah, I have literally, like... work out for 15 minutes on there. That's great. Because it's literally like just move for 15 minutes. So I highly recommend it. And again, we're not being sponsored by them. This is just one of those recommendation moments that I think would benefit a lot of people.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Elena told me about it and I've used it every day since. Oh, and there's also a little thing. This made me...
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
happy yeah there's like even more stuff than just there's a lot of yeah there's a lot of things that you can do on here so i i recommend you download it and kind of explore it a little bit check it out because there's something called like like they have like breathing techniques those are nice they have movements like they'll give you little things to get yourself moving for 10 minutes or something um they have soundscapes you can write down reflections and journal entries and thoughts
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
And they have a first aid kit, which is if you're feeling very anxious or if something happened that upset you or put you in some type of way. Like you're panicky. Yeah. Like you can... It can help you just like get through it. Yeah. Like there's a rant zone. There's grounding exercises. Oh, I did the rant zone the other day. There's like...
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
what would you say to a loved one and it's directing compassion inwards towards yourself it's really beautiful i can be mean to me um so that it was very helpful because sometimes you know people can trigger you yeah and sometimes you're your own worst critic anyway yeah and it helps you like not take in all the yuckiness on the outside yeah and it helps you like work through it if if some leaks through
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Yeah. So, hey, Finch, if you want to sponsor us. Finch, we're kind of obsessed with you. We just gave you a pretty good advertisement.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
So guys, download it. I just highly recommend it if you're looking for something to help yourself there. And it's been helpful to me. I like it.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
I think it's great. And it's made me more mindful of things, like certain things. Because I'll look and I'll be like, you haven't read for 10 minutes. When can you schedule that in? I should put that on mine because I've been not keeping up with my reading lately. Yeah, and it's really helpful. Yeah, I love that. So Finch, everybody. Hell yeah. Yeah, that's my little recommendation for the day.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
And if that like it sounds like it was like a comfort.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Yeah. I can't even comprehend it. And you also have to be a real people person.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Like really good with people and have a good demeanor, which it sounds like she was kind of perfect for that. Definitely.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
They're like going up the steps of the relationship ladder.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Yeah, of course. What an impossible position.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Well, you want to give her the independence and the freedom to make choices, and you can't tether them to you for the rest of their lives as much as we want to, especially.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Because it's just like uncharted territory for you. Up until then, you have been able to tether them to you pretty much. And it's your role.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Yeah, that's how I pictured it, too. Yes.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
You get to make the rules. And it's like at that point you do feel, it's like it must be this weird feeling of like, well, I have to kind of give them a little freedom, but I don't want to at the same time. Like I want to just keep them here.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
We'll do that someday, yeah. We'll do that. Someday.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
I had a strange dream last night, and I don't remember the dream itself. This is going to sound so random, but I remember in the dream, someone was using PEMDAS to solve an equation. Oh, my God.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Hey weirdos, before we unleash today's macabre mystery, we were wondering, have you ever heard of Wondery Plus? It's like a secret passage to an ad-free lair with early access to episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Is that where they're like trying to give directions? Yes. Okay, yeah. I know that one.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
I laugh every time I hear The Californians. I think you said I sounded like that once. You're so mean to Ash. The start of the new year is the perfect time to get organized, set goals, and prioritize what matters most. For me, a top priority is my financial wellness, which feels more important than ever. Thanks to Rocket Money, my goals feel achievable.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
They show me all my subscriptions right in one place and help me easily cancel ones that I forgot that I'd been paying for. Rocket Money also pulls together all my spending across all of my different accounts so I can clearly track my spending habits and see where I can cut back.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
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Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
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Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to rocketmoney.com slash morbid today. That's rocketmoney.com slash morbid. rocketmoney.com slash morbid. All my parents out there, I know that you never want to sacrifice quality for convenience, but listen, so many baby and kids' food options today, they just don't meet the mark.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
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Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
They have an amazing variety of baby blends, biteables, plates, and so much more. Elena gets Little Spoon for her girls, and I am always out here stealing their little snacks because they are that good. And she's always talking about how good she feels serving them meals that are actually good for them. And did I mention it all comes right to your door?
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
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Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me, given, again, how brutal her death was.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
You also feel so bad for those people. Because my goodness, he duped them. Exactly. So duped. Like, you think you know someone and then you find this out about them. Yes.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
He's able to get, did you say three wives or four wives? He had several wives. I don't even know how many he had at the end. To get that many women to marry you, you have to be somewhat charming. Absolutely.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Oh, weird that it was on a beach, too. Yeah. That's very weird.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Oh, I've always been so interested in that case. Yes. And then when the update finally hit, I was like, oh, damn. You said, oh, shit. I said, we should cover that.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
I don't think most people, aside from Ophelia and Hamlet, would choose that.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Let's go, sister. It's raining, by the way. So if you hear any like pitter patter, that's why. It is.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
It's so soothing, but it's like hella windy outside and it knocked over my Christmas plants.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
So good luck to us. So everybody hang tight. But anyway, sorry, I interrupted you because that's who I am as a person. You did.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
It's who I am as a person. So I guess I'm rude. You're a rude bitch is what you are.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
It's really sad that they had so much hope, and I'm sure that gave her family hope as well. And they wasted all these resources.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
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Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
I wonder why. Weird that he left. That's like crazy that they decided to move out of like nowhere. Yeah. Listen, I don't know about you guys, but obviously I have some bad habits that I want to shrug off. You know, we've all got bad habits that we try to shake off.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
And even though I'm not going around doing shady stuff like some of the people that we'd be talking about on this podcast, it's always a good idea to make moves towards good habits. Thank you so much for having me. Fume has a ton of delicious flavors to choose from. Crisp mint, orange vanilla, and new peach blush. I have the peach blush one and it is yummy.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
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Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
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Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
In 2025, maybe you're ready for a plot twist, or maybe there's a part of your story that you've been wanting to revise. I think you should think of therapy as your editorial partner, helping you write new chapters and create the meaningful story that you deserve to live. Something I talk about in therapy all the time is how I always want to better myself. I heard this affirmation the other day.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
I won't get it spot on, but it said something along the lines of, I'm going to be a better version of myself today than I even was yesterday. And I think that's really inspiring. And I think therapy is a great place to start if you want to start working on yourself. And guess what? BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving over 5 million people worldwide.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
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Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
That's always so scary, too. You think you know somebody and then you marry them. Those stories and cases are so sad. Yeah, they are.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
I was going to say, that's weird. I didn't hear you mention that in the beginning. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Everybody's grandpa has a different opinion of Whitey, okay? It's true. In my mind, I thought he was not the mob.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Like they have younger siblings and young children. Exactly.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Oh, and things are just like almost preserved like that. That's the thing. Chilling is the perfect word. Just left the way it was. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Again, can we just say the detective work for the time period goes crazy.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Which is wild, because he continued to live there for a period of time. Yep. Yep. Have you ever grown tired of searching for your favorite movies and TV shows across numerous streaming accounts? It's so frustrating to have all your favorite shows live across multiple logins and apps. I'm trying to watch one show. I'm like, wait, what's my login here?
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
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Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
So sad. Oh, it's awful what happened to her.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
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Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Yeah, I was going to say, I think there was more to that than my mispronunciation, but... Oh, my God. Yeah. So he dismembered to the point where he, like, took organs out? Yeah. Or had they possibly just decayed through the skin and it was just organs left?
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
No, no, for sure. But like they were residents of that home and isn't there something called probable cause and circumstantial evidence? These remains were human.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
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Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
No, there's blood like everywhere. Literally. And there was a kidney, a fucking uterus in somebody's ear and his septic system. Okay. I wouldn't call that weak.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Like everybody knows, but it's like. It depends on if somebody's willing, if the DA is willing to take it. Yeah. And a lot of times they will take that gamble because we've covered cases even earlier than this where they go to trial without a body.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
It's like, come on, this could work. You're going to get him on a larceny charge.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
I hate that he died and like didn't serve any time for any of this. I hate that that guy died.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Well, yeah, it was a loan, but he didn't go to where he said he was going when he took it. So he stole the money, babes.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
You have to wonder if she was scared. I wonder that too. If Dolores and Manzi, you know, faced the fate that they did at his hands, I'm sure there was lead up to that.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Yeah. I feel like they would have fucking found him guilty on a murder charge.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Wow. I mean, I guess, like, having it, I'm sure the jury didn't hear about, like, the... No, because you can't introduce that stuff. Right, like, the body parts and everything. So they just heard this large thing, and it's, I mean, $10,000 is a lot of money, but, like... But it's, like, you know...
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Which is just like, try to conceive of that. Everybody who's married or at least has, but at some point, think about your honeymoon. Yeah. Like, what? Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
No. You know what, though? He died in March and Dolores and Manzi were last seen in March. So that's karma at work, in my opinion.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Also, I in my opinion, at least there's no way he just stopped with Dolores and Manzi and Terry. No, no way.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
I've never heard of somebody having that found in their septic tank and just being like, eh, anyways, they got to live the rest of their life untouched. Ugh. Damn. It makes me so angry. It does make me, it makes me so angry that all of that, but it does make me so happy that at least now his name is tarnished. Yeah, exactly.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
It's like, you did get what was coming to you at the end, so there's that at least. But it's so sad that technically Dolores and Manzi never got the justice that they deserved. Yeah. And that they never found Barbara Kelly's body. No.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Yeah. Well, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it. Woo! but it's worth any of this. Don't be that bad of a human. Please don't. Be good. Thank you.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
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Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Everybody in P-Town at the time was an extra in Jaws.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
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Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
To know in your gut that you're right about something as serious and as devastating as this and to not be able to prove it. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Hey weirdos, Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
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Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
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Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
By the dawn of the new year, the story had unfortunately slipped from the front pages of the local papers and into the back, and by mid-January, it really stopped getting coverage altogether. That's crazy. I know.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
As the end of January approached, though, student groups from Vallejo and Hogan High Schools established a reward fund, and they went door-to-door around the community to collect donations, hoping that the offer of a reward would elicit some kind of help from the community in jump-starting the case. Aww. Which they knew was getting colder and colder. And they did.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah, I don't get that. I think Mikey's on my side here.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
They got a good reward fund up, but nobody ever attempted to collect it.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Well, and you look at it now and you're like, knowing that we are now in 2025 and we don't know who this person is. Like, that's crazy. It's insane. Just think about it back then. They probably never in their wildest dreams... Could fathom that in 2025, we still would not possibly know who this person is.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Probably couldn't even fathom the year 2025. Yeah, truly. Never mind the fact that they would, like, that this case would make it this far without getting any kind of... So crazy. You know, obviously, it's had moments where it's come back up and people have found out new things, of course, but... You know, it's crazy.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So a few months later on March 30th, though, the story did pop up again in the Vallejo Times-Herald, only to remind readers, though, of how little progress had been made. Leslie Lundblad told reporters,
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
mikey just reached for that mike he said i'm sorry wow they've been attacking me all day that's oh my god she's rallying the morbid listeners is this real she's like guys they've been attacking me all day they have i cried in the bathroom earlier that's dirty oh
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
But even with all that information, she did acknowledge that investigators were, quote, only a bit nearer to the solution of the crime than they were when they first arrived on the scene that cold Friday night in December.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah, really sad. Yeah. By that time, everybody had pretty much settled into the belief that David and Betty's killer was completely unknown to the both of them, and the crime was, as far as they knew, motiveless. Betty's father, Vern Jensen, said, I don't feel vindictive, but I am apprehensive. I feel some nut is on the loose. I mean, yeah.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
David's mother, Jean, was similarly unnerved by the idea that her son had been killed by a deranged stranger who was still on the loose and might kill again. Yeah. I think that would be the scariest part of all. For sure. She said, and he'll find it easier next time. We know he's a nut, but what kind of nut?
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And they weren't wrong. And soon they were going to find out just what kind of person killed their children. So true.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
It's scary. I just feel so bad. Imagine that being, she goes out on her first date. Her first date ever. And her parents were like reluctant to even let her go.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Nobody should have to feel that way. No. So by the summer of 1969, David and Betty's murders had faded completely from the newspapers and life in Vallejo was starting to get back to normal. Then in early July, that feeling of terror and helplessness returned when two more young people were gunned down by an unidentified killer.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
22-year-old Darlene Ferrin worked at a local diner, and she was well-liked by everybody who knew her. It seemed to everybody that she and her husband, Dean, had a pretty good life. They were living together, raising their infant daughter in a pretty nice neighborhood. Even though she was married, Darlene was known to date other men on occasion.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And that summer, she had been seeing 19-year-old Mike, I think it's Mugeau, who she'd met at the diner. Okay. So on the afternoon of July 4th, Mike and Darlene made plans to see each other later that evening. First, Darlene was going to go to a 4th of July party with her sister, and then she'd go see Mike after. It was around 11.30 p.m.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
when she finally arrived to pick Mike up, so they decided to go out to a late dinner together. A short time later, Darlene pulled off the road into the parking lot of Blue Rock Springs, which is just a local park, and turned the engine off. A few minutes earlier, she actually had mentioned to Mike that there was something she wanted to talk to him about.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
But before she could actually get out what she wanted to say, their conversation was interrupted because a carload of teenagers pulled into the lot and were just like throwing firecrackers everywhere. Teenagers. Being teenagers. Yeah. So they couldn't talk, really, because every time she went to say something, there would be a loud blast. It was interrupted.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So they resumed their conversation a few minutes later after the group of teenagers had left, but then they were interrupted again, this time by another car that had pulled into the lot.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
By this time, the entire parking lot was empty, but this driver, who was alone in his car, pulled about eight feet behind Darlene's car, turned off his headlights, and sat motionless in his car for a minute or two, started his car again, and drove out of the lot. Huh. Creepy. I would hate that. Yeah. Obviously that was a strange situation.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So Mike asked Darlene if she knew the driver of that vehicle. It sounds like she was getting pretty annoyed at this point because she was clearly trying to have like an important discussion and she kept getting interrupted. So she just said, oh, never mind.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
and mike didn't know what to make of darlene's confusing response but he knew that she seemed irritated or overwhelmed so he decided not to push for an explanation with the distraction behind them they got to talking again but it wasn't long before again they were interrupted about five minutes after leaving the parking lot that second car the one who had pulled behind them returned this time parking a little bit farther away from darlene's car about 10 feet behind on the passenger side
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
That's dirty because you know that everyone's going to be like, pitchforks.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
With the headlights still on this time, the driver got out of the vehicle and walked toward the passenger side of Darlene's car. It was especially dark in the lot that night, and Mike couldn't really make out any details of the driver of the other car, only that he appeared to be carrying a large flashlight like a police officer's flashlight.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So he figured they were getting hassled by the police for some reason.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah. So he reached into his pocket for his wallet and was looking for his driver's license. But when the man reached Mike's window and shined the light in, he didn't ask for ID. He just started firing into the car with a semi-automatic handgun, shooting Mike in the back, neck, and mouth. What?
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Everybody knows this case, but I fear that, and I can count myself among these people, I fear that we don't truly, a lot of people don't truly recognize, like, how...
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
brutal yeah and intense it is because I think it's like it gets painted a lot of times with a very broad brush of like a lover's lane yeah people know the ciphers and the more ciphers and all like which very interesting yeah the more salacious parts of the story I'm not taking away that that's interesting I'm saying me personally I've never this is one case I never looked super far into yeah
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And, like, hearing details like this, that it was, like, a high-powered weapon being just shot into a car. At point-blank range, pretty much. At point-blank range. Like, I didn't fully appreciate how gnarly this is. No, neither did I. Like, that is horrifying.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
That's irresponsible usage of your power is what that is. You know what?
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Reading about this, your jaw just, like... Yeah. Is open the entire time. Yeah. I'm shook. Just wait. So convinced that Mike was dead, the shooter turned the gun toward Darlene, who sat in the driver's seat, obviously paralyzed with fear at this point. Yeah. And she was shot several times, hitting her in the arm, shoulder, chest, and back. Holy shit. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
But as the shooter pulled out of the lot, Mike, still alive, managed to get the passenger door open and fell onto the pavement. He had been shot multiple times at this point, but somehow he was still able to get a good look at this person's car and described it later as a similar to Darlene's brown Corvair, although perhaps a lighter shade of brown.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
irresponsible that's wielding power like a dictator you guys this might be the last episode oh my god that's fake my dogs are like i got the listeners but you get literal hellhounds hell yeah i do i don't think oh they're pissed i don't think it's i don't think it's i don't think that's fair We're just angrily drinking water at each other now. That's a real thing.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And he also was able to get a look at the license plate. He didn't get numbers. But he recognized it as an older style that was no longer used by the state. Holy shit. To have the wherewithal after being shot that many times at that close range is unthinkable.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah. And I can't believe it's happened twice that... somebody was at least left surviving for any period of time.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And it happens again. That's weird. It is weird. It's just weird. And again, it's not intentional.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
He's leaving these scenes very much thinking that he's killed both.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
I mean, and he's done a lot to make sure he has killed everybody, so it's even more miraculous than before.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Even when Mike yelled out, he went back to the scene. Yeah, to make sure. And not only shot Mike again, but shot Darlene again as well.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So Mike laid there on the ground for about 10 minutes until he was finally discovered by three teenagers who luckily pulled into the lot. Wow. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
They checked on him. We're following up like fucking teenagers with like, thank goodness for these teenagers. We're following up with teenagers.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So he was bleeding badly, so they left to get him help. And not long after, Vallejo police arrived in the parking lot where they found Mike still lying on the ground beside the car. He was in bad shape, but he still took the time to provide officers with the details of everything that had happened, including his basic description of the shooter's car.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
It is. Darlene, on the other hand, was barely breathing and couldn't speak. Both victims were rushed to the hospital where Mike was immediately rushed into emergency surgery and he was placed in the ICU. But unfortunately, Darlene died before they reached the hospital. That's so sad. It's awful. And she's a young mom. She was a 22-year-old mother.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
At 1240 a.m., as investigators were still processing the scene at Blue Rock Springs, a startling call came into the Vallejo Police Department. The caller said, Wow. Can you imagine being on the other end of that motherfucking phone call? That is so cold. Goodbye. Goodbye. I also killed those kids. Bye. They said that it was like cold, chilling, freaky. I hate that.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So investigators quickly determined that the call had been placed from a gas station payphone a little less than a mile from the crime scene, which had closed several hours earlier. Of course, by the time they arrived, the caller had gone. But what was clear from the caller's tone was that it wasn't a confession made out of guilt or some sense of moral responsibility, anything like that.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
It was very much intended to mock investigators. Yeah, absolutely. Like, I did it again. Try to catch me.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Like the attack on David Faraday and Betty Jensen, the Blue Rock Springs crime scene didn't turn up much as far as clues or leads. Despite having had the flashlight shine in his face when the killer approached, Mike did feel confident that he would be able to identify the shooter if he saw him again, which is crazy.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
He described the man as young, short, and heavyset and driving a brown car. Wow. At the time, this was the best description that he could provide. And even that was a struggle because one of the slugs had entered his neck, which injured his tongue and fractured his jaw.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So he's providing all of this information, you have to remember, while dealing with those kind of injuries.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Oh, my God. I don't know how you concentrate on anything but the horrific pain that you're probably in. Yeah. And the trauma of what you've gone through. Absolutely.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
It's crazy. Another important witness was George Bryant, who was the son of a local golf course owner about 800 feet away from the parking lot when the two were shot. According to George, he had been looking out his bedroom window a little after 11.30 p.m. that night, and he couldn't see into the parking lot, but he could hear everything very well.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
He told investigators he initially heard a group of young people laughing, followed by the sound of firecrackers, that group of teenagers. And around midnight, George said he heard what he thought was the sound of a single gunshot, a short pause, another series of shots fired in rapid succession.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And he said once the shots finally stopped, he heard the sound of a car start and pull out of the parking lot. In a press conference the next day, representatives of the Vallejo Police Department didn't and really couldn't do much to calm the public's fears over now four shootings having occurred in the span of about seven months. Wow. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
One officer put it really simply saying, we've got a crazy man on the loose. Yeah. Yeah. Which, yeah.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
No, but we're both just going, which is ridiculous because we're both just holding, I'm holding a Stanley and you're holding a fucking roommate and we're just going like snarling at each other across the microphones taking aggressive sips. See, we're sisters. It's fine.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
They hadn't really identified any specific motive for the shootings, but it was clear that the suspect had set out intending to kill people. Of the semi-automatic hand weapon used in the killings, the officer said, it's an offensive weapon made to kill people. It packs more power than a .45. Holy shit. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
When asked why the shooter would have left the scene without being certain that the two were dead, the officer replied, I think he left because he emptied his gun.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
That hunch was a good one. Technicians at the scene ended up finding the exact number of cases you would find in a loaded 9mm pistol, leading investigators to theorize that, yes, the killer had only stopped because he hadn't brought additional ammunition.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
That is terrifying. Yeah. That he would have kept going. Probably. And that he just totally unloaded his gun. Also, imagine being Mike and hearing that. Like, that you only are here because of your own, like, you know. Insane, like. Like, strength. Strength, yeah. Yeah, and, like, but, you know, perseverance. But, like, also just some wild thing that, like, there was nothing left. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
But if there was. He would have. He would have kept going. He would have kept going. I don't know what that feeling would be. But it must be wild.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Mm-hmm. Under the circumstances, Darlene's husband, Dean, was the most logical suspect in this case. But he had an alibi. At the time of the shootings, he was working a shift at the Tennessee Street restaurant, and his presence was verified by every single one of his co-workers.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Otherwise, there was no other suspects or really any evidence that would have pointed investigators in the direction of the killer. And given the phone call made shortly after the shooting, detectives had pretty good reason to suspect that the shooter in this case was the same person who killed David and Betty the previous December. This wasn't a one-off, you know?
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah, they weren't like, maybe this is a different situation.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah. So those suspicions were strengthened a few weeks later when the San Francisco area newspapers all received similar letters from somebody claiming to be the killer.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
The first letter sent to the San Francisco Chronicle was written in crude block printing and read, Dear Editor, This is the murder of the two teenagers last Christmas at Lake Herman plus the girl on the 4th of July near the golf course in Vallejo. To prove I killed them, I shall state some facts which only I plus the police know. Christmas. Over. Indicating to them to flip the sheet of paper over.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
I'm not actually her. I never cried in a bathroom. I'm reading this off a script. No, it's true.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Here is part of a cipher. The other two parts of this cipher are being mailed to the editors of the Vallejo Times plus SF Examiner. And I kind of tried to pause where he breaks.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Because it's written very interestingly. Like it's a new line when you don't necessarily need a new line.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah. That's very unsettling. It's very unsettling. There's a lot to be made of the way that the Zodiac communicates.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
In time, the letters to the news outlets would become a hallmark, like we know, of the Zodiac Killer, and the press would eventually dub him the Zodiac Killer. But when they got these initial letters, everybody was incredibly confused, and really, they could have just been easily dismissed as the confession of a mentally ill person who maybe hadn't committed these crimes.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So nobody was taking them too, too seriously at first. But very detailed. Very detailed.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And we'll get there. For one thing, though, the grammar and punctuation were noticeably inconsistent with some statements ending in a period and others having no punctuation at all. Okay. And each letter had a solid number of misspelled words. Like, for example, he spells Christmas C-H-R-I-S-T-M-A-S-S.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
She was not. Say it again. Say it with more feeling now.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
That kind of thing. That's really the only one I can point to in that letter. He spelled patterned wrong, I think. There's a few things that are spelled wrong. But people got the feeling that maybe these mistakes were also intentional. Like he's trying to look a little off.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah, because it's like, especially the added S in Christmas. It almost feels like it's like, yeah, I'll just put this in.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah, who knows, but... There's sweaters, there's candles, there's that dreaded bathrobe that you're always gifting your mom. Mother's Day gifts can get a little bit predictable, and I hate to say it, but kind of boring. You know what's not boring? Aura frames. They were named the best digital photo frame by Wirecutter. They are guaranteed to mix things up this year.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Aura frames come with unlimited storage, so you can share as many photos as you want to from your phone to mom's Aura frame. Not only will she be grateful that it's not another sweater or a bathrobe, she'll also love that an Aura frame means she gets to see more of you. Also, it's super duper easy to set up. It takes about two minutes to set up a frame using the Aura app.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And if it's not something that you want to get your mom for Mother's Day, it's also the perfect gift for any occasion. Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day. For a limited time, listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off plus free shipping on their best-selling Carver Matte Frame. That's a-u-r-a-frames.com. Promo code MORBID.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Weigh in. Do you even know what we're fighting about? Do we make it clear?
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Can you use aesthetic as like, or I shouldn't say can you. Do you use aesthetic in that way as like. This is a big, I've seen people argue about this before. I didn't even know this was a thing.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Now, accompanying each letter was a cipher. Each of the three ciphers were hand-drawn and were unique, but they all went together. So in order to solve one, you needed access to all three, but they were all sent to separate newspapers. There was also an ominous warning in each letter that read pretty much as an ultimatum to the editors of the papers.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Publish the ciphers by the next afternoon, or the killer threatened to, quote, go on a killing rampage. And he said he would kill a dozen or more people. As indicated in the letters, the killer definitely, like you caught on to, did know information about the murders that hadn't been disclosed by investigators, including the brand of ammunition used in the shootings.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So detectives did have every reason to believe that the letters were genuine. But still, only the Chronicle complied with the killer's demand and published the cipher the next day.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
The Examiner ran a story the day after receiving the letter but didn't publish the cipher itself. And the Times-Herald published their cipher a few days later and didn't put it on the front page like the killer wanted.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Despite not fully complying with his demands, there luckily was no mass shooting.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
It is. So in hopes of drawing the killer out of hiding, or at least maybe getting some additional information, Vallejo Police Chief Jack Stiltz told reporters he was not convinced the letter was written by the actual killer. If it was, he would like the letter to supply more facts to prove it. Wow.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah. In response, the San Francisco Examiner received a second letter on August 4th that read, Dear Editor, this is the Zodiac speaking. I answer to your asking for more details about the good times I have had in Vallejo. I shall be very happy to supply even more material. By the way, are the police having a good time with the code? If not, tell them to cheer up.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
When they do crack it, they will have me. On the 4th of July, I did not open the car door. The window was rolled down already. And he wrote already like are you all ready instead of it already happened.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
I think it's a generational thing. I think you're right. I think I, since I tow the Gen Z millennial line and I don't, listen, Gen Z, I love you, but I don't always love to, you know, head over that way. I think I'm on that way with this one. You are on that way. I feel like that's definitely more of a Gen Z thing. I think it is. I think they like reworked the word.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
The boy was originally sitting in the front seat when I began firing. When I fired the first shot at his head, he leaped backwards at the same time, thus spoiling my aim. He ended up on the back seat, then the floor thrashing about violently with his legs. That's how I shot him in the knee.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
I did not leave the scene, spelled C-E-N-E, of the killing with squealing tires plus racing engine as described in the Vallejo paper. I drove away slowly so as not to draw any attention to my car. And that was it.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
That's like so like I wasn't freaked out and like skidding away. I was actually going slow but thanks though. Like that's very like somebody who's very insecure with their own situation and is trying to be like I'm actually a tough guy and I wasn't scared at all.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And like an attention grabber. Somebody who's like I want you to know All the facts.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And like, I want you to know how I set out to do this.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yep. Like I am fixing this story. It's very BTK-ish to me where it's like, where he was in, which tells you exactly what kind of person this person is or was. Yep. Because it's like, he has to be like, well, wait a minute. You have it wrong.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
This is what happened. And this is how I did that. You can't say these things.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And it's like, babe, you killed people. So I think that's really the most important thing here. Nobody's worried about if you skidded out of the place or if you slowly drove.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
That one is just like, like you said, like I wasn't scared.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah, it's very much like a personal thing. I was being brave. I drove out slowly.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Two people who are unarmed. Yeah. While I'm armed to the teeth. Like, yeah, tough guy.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
No, the letter had no signature, just a simple symbol in the shape of a crosshairs, which will become very familiar. Yep. The publication of the letter so soon after the killings did emphasize to the public that there definitely was something to fear in their community. Yeah. In an interview with The Examiner, police chief Jack Stiltz encouraged all residents to, quote, stay out of lonely areas.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
A warning reiterated by Captain Wade Bird, who said, we could be looking for a very dangerous man. Yeah. I can't imagine being a teenager or like, we'll come to find out, being anybody at this point in time. Just being a human. Yeah, just, it's so, it must have been so scary.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah, it's very much like the David Berkowitz kind of situation where it's like you just don't know when they're going to hit next. Yeah. You know? Yeah.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And whatever I do read about this case, I always think of that movie, The Town That Dreaded Sundown. Oh my God, yes. So that is a scary movie. That's a terrifying movie. And it's really so similar to the facts of this case. Like obviously it's, you know, dramatized, but dramatized.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Dramatized. Dramatized. Dramatized. We don't know. Mikey. Right in. Is the word dramatized or dramatized? Dramatized. Yeah.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Doesn't dramatized also sound right, though? I don't know why.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
It sounds right. Yeah, I don't think it is, but I see why.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Because that one's the Texarkana Moonlight Murders of 1946.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
A very early live show, I think. But yeah, it's a similar... It's got similar... ...vibe to it. Yeah. Where it's one of those things, too, where it's like they're telling people not to... Like, to be careful. Don't go to lover's lanes. Yeah, and they just, like, you don't know when they're going to hit. Yeah. It's really scary. Yeah, it's got, oh, I hate that so much.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So while spokespeople for law enforcement did their very best to keep the public calm, investigators were working behind the scenes to crack the cipher that had been received by the three news outlets. Stiltz enlisted the help of the cryptographic unit of the U.S. Navy radio station on nearby Skaggs Island.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
They were a group who had a lot of experience with encrypted messages and very complex ciphers. But before the Navy had made any progress on the cipher, investigators received a call from a couple in Salinas who had seen the puzzle in the paper and managed to crack the code themselves. Oh, I remember this part of it. That's like the... That blew my mind.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And after about 20 hours, they decoded the entire message. There were some hiccups, of course. Donald told a reporter, as you can tell, his spelling is rather poor. And in some places, he had made errors in the use of his own cipher, which he did.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
I love how like they are roasting this person. They're just like, as you can see, he's a fucking idiot. He's an idiot. You gotta.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
It's like us when we call people wet lettuce and shit. So the message with errors intact read, this is so fucked. And it's all in capital letters, which freaks me the fuck out. Ew. I like killing people because it is so much fun. It is more fun than killing wild game in the forest because man is the most, it's hunger to, so people don't know if it was meant to say hungry or dangerous maybe. Yeah.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Nobody really knows, but the most hunger to animals of all. To kill something gives me the most thrilling experience. It is even better than getting your rocks off with a girl. I feel like you haven't. The best part of it, I-A-Thai. So, like, I-A-T-H-A-E. But he was very clearly trying to write, the best part of it is that. Yeah. When I die, I will be reborn in paradise. Spelled P-A-R-A-D-I-C-E.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And all the I have killed will become my slaves. I will not give you my name because you will try to S-L-O-I slow down or stop my collecting of slaves for my afterlife. And then it was signed E-B-O-R-I-O-T-M-F-H-I-P-T. What the fuck?
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
You have to drink too. Actually, you really shouldn't cheers with water. I think that's bad luck. So maybe the show is ending. Oh, so is it technically water? You know what's crazy? Usually mine has my little arm in there, but today it doesn't because I just wanted ice water.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Unhinged for sure. Unhinged as fuck. Holy shit. Neither Donald or his wife were able to decipher those last four words that I very clearly struggled through, but they suspected that it was a signature of some kind. When you say it out loud, it sounds like some kind of Latin. So I don't know if he's like guising it in his own way as Latin. I'm not sure. Yeah.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
um maybe we'll get we'll get there someday who knows we'll get there someday so the next day a second decryption arrived in the mail this time from an anonymous source despite some discrepancies in the two solutions they were more or less the same several months later when he was asked for comments on what he thought the cipher revealed about the killer donald harden said he's bright enough but not necessarily of high intellect
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Interesting. Which I can agree with. Because I mean, there's got to be some level of intelligence to create a cipher. Yeah, absolutely. It's not an easy thing to do, especially one that will stump as many people as this one did.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
But it is strange that it's like, that's why it feels like these spelling mistakes and shit are like,
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
I think they're intentional, absolutely. But Harden suspected the killer actually had no experience with cryptography and that he had either made up the cipher on his own, which is impressive, or had pulled it from some obscure detective story that he read somewhere. He said there's no continuity, no fidelity in his code. There are no special characters in these cryptograms.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yep. So the next eight weeks passed pretty quietly in and around Vallejo in San Francisco. Not even the publication of the decrypted message prompted another letter from the killer. He was probably pissed.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Then in late September, the silence was broken when yet another young couple was attacked, this time at Lake Berenice, about an hour outside of Vallejo. 22-year-old Cecilia Shepard and 20-year-old Brian Hartnell, two students at Pacific Union College, had met in 1968, quickly fallen in love, and started spending all their free time together.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
By the fall of 1969, though, their relationship had cooled off a bit, and eventually they drifted apart with their breakup becoming final when Cecilia decided to transfer to UCLA, Riverside. The breakup was pretty amicable, but... Cecilia ran into a problem. She still had some things in her dorm up at Pacific Union.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So on the afternoon of September 27th, she decided to make the trip to campus to grab the last of her things. After grabbing what she needed from her dorm, she stopped in the cafeteria for some lunch, and wouldn't you know it, she ran into Brian. Of course. They ate together, they caught up, but when they finished lunch, they didn't want to go their separate ways just yet.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So the two of them, along with a friend, Judy, decided to go to a rummage sale in nearby St. Helena. After leaving the rummage sale around 2 that day, Brian and Cecilia dropped Judy back at campus, but still weren't done hanging out yet, and decided to visit Lake Baranessa. They weren't done. I know. A location that Brian had really always loved. Aw.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
I don't like wah-wah. I don't like that you're saying that.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So after parking the car, they started walking the short distance to the shoreline, where Brian laid out a blanket on the grass for the two of them, and they just sat there chatting. Now, a short time passed when Brian started hearing something large moving around in the bushes about 15 or 20 feet behind them.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
He was laying on his back and wasn't wearing his glasses, so he knew he wasn't going to be able to see what was happening. And he asked Cecilia, who was laying on her stomach facing him, he said, what was making the noise? She looked off in the distance and she saw a man standing at the tree line and then saw him disappear.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
It sounds like something out of a movie. It really does. Brian just chuckled to himself and was like, he probably went into the woods to relieve himself and was like embarrassed that you saw him. But Cecilia was like, no, I feel like he was watching us. And she couldn't shake that feeling.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
i don't like that i actually hate it so much i don't really know why i just horrified myself you you oh man we're taking a little bit of time off but you won't know so we're batch recording a lot of things right now yeah so if we sound insane that's why like so we're taking time off but like it's not going to affect episodes yeah like your episodes will come out the same time so we have to record like a bunch of stuff in advance and that makes us cuckoo crazy
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Literally moments, moments after that man disappeared behind the tree, he reappeared, this time much closer to the couple than either of them had expected. And Cecilia then shouted, oh my god, he's got a gun. Holy shit.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And the worst part is that you know they have seen all the stories.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
They know, like, they've seen, like, think about seeing all these stories, hearing the horrible things, feeling the fear. Yeah. And then you find yourself face to face with this person.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And again, they're not, like, this is the middle of the day. They're not thinking.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And they're at a park. They're not at a quote-unquote lonely place, you know?
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
That's the thing. Like, you're not even, like, you've watched, you've seen the articles. You've watched the coverage. You think you're doing everything right, quote-unquote. And you've thought that fear. And you've sat there and said, oh, my God. Like, what if that was me? Yeah, you probably talked about it. All the things that we do, sit here and be like, oh, my God, I can't imagine.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Blah, blah, blah. That would be so scary. And then you find yourself in that position. In the middle of it. Yup. Like, it just, that stuff always freaks me out. It's so scary.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
After the attack, Brian would describe for the police the incredibly surreal and confusing moments leading up to the attack. In the time between ducking behind the tree and reappearing in front of them, the man donned what appeared to be a heavy canvas executioner's hood. That covered his entire head and came all the way down to his stomach. That's so fucking scary. Oh, just wait. It gets crazier.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
The top of the hood seemed to be flat with four corners like a paper bag. It clearly looked like it had been made by somebody who didn't really know how to sew. Embroidered on the front chest area was a concentric cross and circle about three inches in diameter that looked like crosshairs.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And possibly the strangest part of the attire, the eye holes of the hood were covered with what Brian thought were clip-on sunglasses. What the fuck? I don't know why and tell me if I'm crazy, but for some reason, the scariest part of that is the sunglasses. That's so weird. Like, it's just so unsettling. I mean, the scariest part is the fact that he's wearing an executioner's hood. Because why?
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
scary ass move to make absolutely as cecilia had said the man did have a gun in his hand but he didn't appear to be advancing on them with menacing energy per se the man told cecilia and brian that he was an escaped convict from deer lodge prison in montana and that he was on his way fleeing to mexico he said he had no intention of hurting them he just wanted their money and the keys to brian's car so that he could leave the country
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So they were like, okay. Like, cool, man. Obviously sensing that they're in danger here, though, Brian spoke calmly to the man wearing the hood and tried to engage him in conversation. He even offered to write him a check. He was like, I only have 75 cents on me, but I'll write you a check. Yeah.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
The man just ignored what Brian was saying and instead told him he was going to have to tie the two of them up. Oh, I hate that. Yeah. I hate it. Because why would he have to tie you guys up if he's just taking your car?
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yep. So the gunman pulled a length of plastic clothesline from his back pocket and tossed it to Cecilia, telling her that she needed to tie Brian's hands behind his back. She did as she was told, but she didn't want to hurt Brian, so she tied the knots loosely. When she finished, the man tied Cecilia's hands behind her back using very tight knots. Yeah, I figure.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And then re-tied Brian's hands with similarly tight bindings. Once their hands were bound, the gunman told Brian to lie on his stomach so that he could tie his feet behind. But Brian protested at this point. He said, we might not be found here for hours and we could get hypothermia. We're tied up.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Irritated, the man placed the barrel of the gun to Brian's head and shouted, I told you to get down.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Right now, I'm actually excited, question mark, to talk about this case. I think this is a really fascinating case. It is. This is obviously, if you're here, you know it's the Zodiac case. This is like a obviously, obviously, I just keep saying that over and over again. This is a very devastating case. Yeah. But I think it's very interesting.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
the dramatic tone was obviously horrifying so brian just did what the guy said now he was hog tied on the ground and the man turned his attention to cecilia binding her ankles in the same way as the man was tying cecilia's bindings brian noticed that as he was doing it the guy's hands were shaking interesting so he asked him are you nervous and the gunman replied yes i guess so oh yeah
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
That's very, like, I'm so impressed that Brian had the wherewithal to ask that question.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
I think he was trying to appeal to this guy's humanity in any way. Yeah, show him the human. You don't have to do this if you're nervous.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So in his mind, he interpreted the guy's hands shaking to mean that maybe he wasn't as dangerous as he appeared and maybe he wasn't going to harm them. But unfortunately, the gunman's nervousness was probably less of a sign of inexperience as it was excitement.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Like the way he was talking seems like this is... He said he gets so excited that it's even better than sex. Yeah.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah. So accounts about what happened next have varied depending on when the story was told. According to the park ranger who discovered Brian and Cecilia a short time after the attack, Brian initially said that the man produced a knife from a holster and said, I'm going to have to stab you. Yeah. At hearing this, Brian reportedly told the man, stab me first. I'm chicken.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Which, like, that's a fucking gentleman. That just...
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
shattered my heart i know sometime later though brian told detectives he couldn't remember whether he saw the man produce the knife or if he heard him say anything and that it was equally possible that he said nothing before he plunged the knife into brian's back oh whatever the case he then stabbed brian in the back eight times oh my god and brian pretended to be dead Again. Wow.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And it's wild to me that don't come at me in the comments because it still is unsolved. That it's still unsolved. Yeah. You can sit there and you can tell me that it's solved all you want to. It's still technically unsolved.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And then when Brian, you know, as Brian was pretending to be dead, the man turned his attention to Cecilia and started brutally attacking her. He stabbed her more than 10 times in the back, abdomen, and groin all while she was fighting back.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Confident that he'd be leaving both victims for dead, he stood up and calmly walked away, leaving Brian's wallet and the car keys laying right on the ground beside the couple.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
He had no intention of taking that car. holy shit once he was sure that the man had gone brian called out to cecilia and despite the brutality of the attack they both started discussing how they could get their bindings off and go for help she's still alive both alive they're both still alive Holy shit.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So using his teeth, Brian was able to loosen Cecilia's bindings enough to free one of her hands. But the clothesline had been tied so tightly and for so long at this point that both of her arms had gone numb. Oh my god. And she wasn't unable to tie his hands or her own ankles.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Desperate to find help, though, they just started screaming in the hopes that one of the boats on the reservoir nearby might hear them and investigate the sound. Oh, my God. It took some time, but about 15 minutes later, which, imagine 15 minutes.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah, easy, 15 years. A local fisherman, Richard Fong, heard the cries for help, and he went to get a park ranger. In the meantime, Cecilia actually luckily had regained the use of one of her arms, and she managed to free Brian's hands, which let him untie all the remaining bindings.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Believing that no help was coming because they can't hear anything coming back, Brian decided he needed to get to the main road and flag down a passing car. He's been stabbed in the back eight times. I was just going to say, like, Jesus. Luckily, he only had to make it about 225 yards, but even still, that is incredibly impressive.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
When he was spotted by Ranger Dennis Land, who had heard the broadcast about Fong's report and started making his way to the scene. At that same time, Fong and Park Ranger William White had gone back to the shoreline by boat, along with another couple who had also heard the noise. So a ton of people are arriving on scene. Damn.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
By the time everybody reached Cecilia, it was clear that her injuries were a lot more serious than Brian's. Oh, God. Because she's been stabbed in the abdomen, too.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Like, the groin. The groin. And a few more times. And they're more serious than Brian's, but his injuries are still really bad, too. Like... So that's saying a lot that hers were so bad. Ranger White would later say, I've seen a lot of things. People cut by boat blades and such, but never anything like these two nice kids just cut to pieces. Oh, my God.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
I'm going to become a zodiologist. A zodiologist. Also. Oh, sorry. Didn't mean to. Go ahead. Go ahead.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So White immediately called an ambulance, and the group started tending to Cecilia the best they could while they waited for help to arrive. But unfortunately, the lake was in a remote area pretty far from any main road, so it took the ambulance and additional law enforcement almost 45 minutes to arrive. Holy shit. Yeah.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
The MTs, when they got there, loaded both victims into the ambulance and wasted no time getting to the hospital. But by the time they reached their destination, almost two and a half hours had gone by since the attack. And though Brian was still conscious, Cecilia had fallen into a coma. Oh, no.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
At 7.40 p.m., a little over an hour after Brian and Cecilia were attacked at Lake Berryessa, a call came in to the Napa Police Department from an anonymous caller who said, I'd like to report a murder. No, a double murder. They are two miles north of park headquarters. They are in a white Volkswagen Karmann Ghia. Just told them. The fuck?
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Assuming the caller was simply reporting a crime they witnessed, Officer David Slate asked the caller for their name and location, but the man on the end ignored him and just kept talking, saying quietly, I'm the one that did it. And then just hung up. Holy shit. Yeah. The officer on the other end said he literally heard the phone being nestled back on the cradle. What a nasty fucker. Yeah.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
also i didn't i can't find the little i wrote down on a card who sent me this but a listener and if you're listening you're fucking awesome and i'll make sure to figure out your name and you better be on her side of the aesthetic argument on my side no a listener sent me went to london oh and went to the jack the ripper like uh tour and all that and sent us like in the p.o box like sent me a pin that says ripperologist on it from the like like the museum that's
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Later, Officer Slate, who took the call, would describe the voice as possibly in his early 20s. In the background, he said he could hear the noise of traffic and background chatter just before the caller had hung up. When they traced the call to its origin, investigators discovered it had been placed from a payphone in downtown Napa.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
In total, 35 latent prints were lifted from the payphone, including one promising palm print, and some of the prints were actually so fresh that they still showed beads of moisture. Which is crazy. But unfortunately, they didn't do much in identifying their killer. Back at the crime scene, investigators were having little luck finding any leads.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
After Brian and Cecilia were removed from the scene, a well-meaning park ranger moved their belongings and the bindings back to the park headquarters, which effectively compromised any evidence that could have been collected.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
It's not like they were trying to fuck everything up.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
No, they were trying to help. There was, however, one strange and intriguing clue left at the scene. On the passenger side door of Brian's car, written in felt-tip pen, the gunman wrote the following message. Vallejo, 12-20-68, 7-4-69, September 27th, 69, 6-30, by knife.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So he's laying out the first murders, the first set of murders, the second set of murders, and now the third set of murders with a time stamp and how he killed them by knife. I hate that. Yeah, or how he thought he killed them.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Above the message, the killer drew the now familiar symbol of the crosshairs. Within a few days, the message would be made public in the area papers. But, smart, investigators withheld the final line by knife, knowing that they could use that information to later verify the identity of their killer. Good call. Yeah, they were like, he's definitely going to contact us again, so let's keep that.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Despite a solid amount of critical evidence having been compromised, there were still other clues at the scene that helped reconstruct what happened. The day after the attacks, investigators discovered a clear set of footprints leading from the scene back to where Bryant's car was, which it was parked on Knoxville Road. Yeah. So that's good. Yeah.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Now, that same day, investigators discovered the tracks. Detectives got a call from the dean of Pacific Union College, who reported that three students had come forward with some information that might be of help. According to the three young women, they were also at the lake that day.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
They had gone to sunbathe, and they were settled on a spot near the western shore, which is where Brian and Cecilia had been attacked. As they were getting out of their car, they said they all noticed a man, quote, in a light blue Chevrolet with California license plates. And he was parked nearby. They thought really nothing of it at the time.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
But a half hour later, all of them saw the man from the parking lot standing about 50 feet away, and he was clearly watching them. Yeah. However, whenever they would look in his direction, he'd look away. Just fucking creepy. I hate that he's such a fucking creep. He's creepy. That's the thing. A short time later, the man passed by the group as he walked back toward the cars.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And when each witness was interviewed separately, they all described the man in pretty much the same way.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
approximately 30 years old six feet tall 200 to 225 pounds stocky with dark hair parted on the left side wearing dark pants and a short sleeve sweater and they all agreed he was nice looking okay which is even scarier that he's just a pa i mean who knows if this is the guy it could be just a normal looking just a normal looking dude like nothing out of the ordinary and i it
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
There's a good chance it could have been the Zodiac because if you look at the earlier descriptions of him, everybody says around 20 to 30. They say stocky or like heavyset kind of. Yeah, which makes sense. Now, the same day as detectives were interviewing the students from Pacific Union, investigators held a press conference to provide what few details they could about the case.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Identifying the assailant as likely the same man who had attacked the two couples in Vallejo earlier that year, Napa Sheriff's Captain Don Townsend told reporters, Yeah. Which, like, yes. Valid. And he went on to say that the attack on Cecilia showed definite sexual overtones. But it's unclear what that statement was really based on.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
But he did suggest, again, without evidence, that, quote, the slayings might be part, might be the work of a Napa State hospital inmate.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
That's interesting. Yeah. I think. It's like, didn't the last time he said he was escaped from a.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah. He told Brian and Cecilia that he was. But I don't know. Yeah, I mean, that doesn't... Because he said he was an escaped inmate from like Minnesota.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah. Something like that. So that's different, but interesting that it was brought up a couple of times.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah, it is interesting. But who knows what the basis was. On the afternoon of September 29th, unfortunately, just before 4 p.m., Cecilia Shefford passed away in the hospital, making her the fourth confirmed murder victim of the man that the press now was referring to officially as the Zodiac Killer.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Brian Hartnell remained in serious condition, but would eventually recover from his injuries. That is unbelievable. And to have that happen three times in a row. In the men. Yeah, which is weird.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Like, I'm glad that they, you know, he survived. I mean, like, I hate that, like, well, we don't know what that's about. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I hate that coincidence.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
But it is bizarre. But it's just very bizarre. There's a lot of... I'm not saying like supernatural in the way of like ghostly, but there are like a lot of supernatural, paranormal-y.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Things that feel supernatural about this. Not that there is. Yeah, I'm not saying there is. It has a vibe to it that's very otherworldly. Yes. Because even his like outfit feels like. from another planet kind of situation. Like, you're just like, I can't reconcile, like, someone wearing that.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah, and I think, obviously, the fact that it's unsolved leads even more, like, heightens that feeling. Yeah, like, makes it have, like, an alien-esque quality to it. Yeah, but it is, it's a case that really leaves you with the chills.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
But in an interview conducted shortly after he came out of surgery, Brian described the killer as having brown hair, about 5'9 to maybe 6 feet tall, 20 to 30 years of age, and 200 to 250 pounds with a husky voice. Okay. So pretty similar to all the other descriptions.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Investigators checked other aspects of Brian's story, including the killer's claim that he escaped from Deer Lodge State Prison in Montana. That's what it was. I think I said Minnesota earlier. Either one. But officials at Deer Lodge confirmed all their inmates were accounted for. Hmm. Now, like we know, the term serial killer had not been established at this point.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
But in the two weeks that followed the attacks at the lake, the press and public started to process the fact that there was a multiple murderer living amongst them. And if the past was any indication, this guy was going to kill again.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
some people were starting to think maybe the Zodiac was sexually motivated evident in what was described as his quote unquote effeminate handwriting and the quote sexual aberration suspected by a psychiatrist I don't know though the only I think that's kooky to attribute it to that I don't think there's enough I think what's more interesting is the fact that he literally wrote in the cipher like it's better than getting your rocks off with some girl
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Well, and I think that's really where people were getting that feeling from.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
You have been. I feel like it's already beneficial. So let's get into it. So the Zodiac killing started with the Lake Herman Road murders where 17-year-old David Faraday and his girlfriend, 16-year-old Betty Lou Jensen, were killed. Betty Lou? I know, Betty Lou. What an adorable name. 16 and 17 years old. My God, literal babies. And they were your typical American teenagers in the fall of 1968.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
But they're like, let's talk about his quote-unquote effeminate handwriting. It's like, really?
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah, and it's like, I don't think these crimes are necessarily sexually motivated. I think he gets probably a sexual thrill from killing.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah, like maybe... That's the thing. Maybe, like, that's what it's about. Yeah. Is that's where he gets his pleasure from is doing this, which is fucked up in a whole different way.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
But I don't know if I would consider that... I don't know. Maybe it's just like the wording that sounds off to me. You know what I mean? Because I always think of like a sexually motivated murder to include sexual assault. Yes. Which, of course, it doesn't always, I guess.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
When you really think about it, you're like, okay, well, maybe it's just the term that's throwing me off, but perhaps they're correct.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah. But to others, he was simply a maniac who believed the stars and planets commanded him to kill. According to an astrologer's prediction made just before the Berryessa attack, the attack on the lake, quote, the heavens indicated the killer might strike a third time. And this astrologer was only off by one day. Wow. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
But regardless of the killer's motivations, almost everybody believed it was only a matter of time before he struck again. And unfortunately, they wouldn't be waiting long. Oh man. But that is where we are going to wrap for part one.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Oh wow. Yeah. Wow. Give you a lot of information for part one. Holy shit. I was going to say, this is just like so heavy. Like there's just so much involved in this case. There really is. And there's still a lot more to talk about in part two. Damn.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. I'm Elena. And this is Morbid. That was a rushed intro because we're having a fight. We are. It's serious. The pod might be—no, I'm just kidding.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
But... Holy shit. We will leave you here because that's a lot to digest. That is a lot to digest. Crazy. Very crazy. Bonkers case. Damn. So with all that, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you... Keep...
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
it weird keep it so weird that you fight with your sister about the use of the word aesthetic keep it that fucking and keep it so weird that you're on my side no my side i'm not old whatever whatever whatever michael michael
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah. David was one of Vallejo High School's star wrestlers. He was a popular student. He was an Eagle Scout, not a Cub. That year, he had actually been awarded the Scout's God and Country Award, which is like a pretty high honor. Whoa. Similarly, Betty was said to be a popular and responsible student at Hogan High School, where she was in her junior year.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
so young junior in high school yeah they were both active and after school activities they both participated a lot in community events like they were just like very all-american teenagers in fact it was one of those community events actually decorate the decorating committee for a winter dance that was being put on by the city that brought the two of them together in mid-december
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And within a week of meeting, they had fallen for each other hard. And they started rearranging their schedules so they could spend more time together outside of school. Just young love. Oh, I love it. Now, Betty's parents had always forbidden her from dating. They really wanted her to focus on school instead. But that December, she did manage to convince them to let her go out with David.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And she and David made plans for Friday, December 20th, which was going to be Betty's first ever date. So this was a big deal. And it's literally less than a week before Christmas. So when the day finally arrived, David picked Betty up from school. They spent a few hours together just kind of like hanging out before their official date that night. But David dropped her off at home around 6 p.m.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
and then came back to pick her up a few hours later, a little bit after 8 p.m. Betty invited him inside. Of course, he had to go meet the parents. And the four of them chatted briefly for about 20 minutes. And then David and Betty left the house.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
They told Betty's parents that they were going to the Hogan High Christmas concert and then to a party at a friend's house and that they'd definitely be back in time to make Betty's 11 p.m. curfew. It turns out they didn't really have any plans of going to the school concert. Oh. They actually went to visit one of Betty's friends and they left that friend's home around 9 p.m. Okay.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Then where they went from there is unknown, but some speculated that maybe they visited another friend along the way or stopped at like a fast food restaurant. But whatever the case, by 11 p.m., David's station wagon was seen parked at the entrance to Benica Pumping Station on Lake Herman Road, which was a very popular lover's lane area in Vallejo.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
They parked right at the start of a shift change at the pumping station, too. So a lot of people remembered seeing the car and saw the two of them inside. Okay. Many, many witnesses. Yeah. Now, around 11.20 p.m., a local mom, Stella Borges, was driving past the pumping station on her way to pick her son up from a local movie theater.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And when she rounded the corner by the entrance to the station, her headlight swept across the lover's lane, where she and the other passengers in her car could clearly see two bodies lying on the ground outside of the station wagon. Oh.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
stella would later tell police it looked like david had fallen out of the open door yeah obviously very frightened by what she'd seen she sped past the scene in the direction of the nearby downtown benica where she flagged down the first police cruiser that she could find and after listening to her story captain dan pitta and his partner called in the report to the station rushed to the scene and called for an ambulance on the way okay
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Now, Captain Dan Pitta's arrival at the scene was followed very quickly by members of the Benica and Vallejo police departments and also deputies from the Solano County Sheriff's Department. It was the latter department who did have jurisdiction over the entire area that night. Betty was declared dead at the scene. But when paramedics checked on David, he was still breathing.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
He was just barely conscious. Oh, wow. Holy shit. Weirdly, that happens a lot in this case. Really? And it doesn't seem to be intentional. It's just a strange thing that happens with a lot of these killings. That's interesting. Yeah. So David was rushed to Vallejo General Hospital, but unfortunately it was too late. He did end up being pronounced dead at the hospital at 12.05 a.m. Aww.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
He had been shot once in the head just behind the left ear, and Betty had been shot five times in the back with one of the bullets piercing her heart. Holy shit. Yeah, this was intense. A search and analysis of the crime scene really didn't yield much as far as clues, and there were even fewer leads, unfortunately.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
It's serious, so buckle in for the last episode. Here's the—I don't—okay, so the fight is over. The fight. The fight. It's a fight. The brawl is over. Whether you can use the word aesthetic as an adjective. And you can. I say no. The Oxford Dictionary disagrees. I don't give a fuck what the Oxford Dictionary says. I've never. You heard it here first. I don't.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
From what investigators could tell, the couple had been parked on that lover's lane when a second car arrived and pulled right up behind them, which is just so creepy to me.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Based on the locations where shell casings were discovered, they theorized that the driver of the second car fired into the station wagon, evidenced by the bullet hole in the back window of the car. That gunshot obviously forced the couple out of the car, where David was likely shot in the head while he was still on the ground. Ugh.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Betty, it seemed, had tried to run away from the shooter, but they estimated about 20 feet when the gunman started firing from his position next to the station wagon with five of the six shots hitting Betty in the back.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Once the killer believed he had executed the two teenagers, he left the scene without even collecting the bullet casings. Wow. Just calmly left the scene.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah. Intense. Now, the crime scene was frustrating, and it was frustrating from the moment investigators arrived. Because it was December, the ground was practically frozen solid, so that made it impossible to identify any kind of tire tracks from the second vehicle. Mm-hmm. Deputy Sheriff Russell Butterbach told reporters, I just couldn't say how or what happened.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
We haven't got that far in the investigation. But there was really nobody anyone could think of as a potential suspect because both victims seemed like really the last people anybody would want dead.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah, it's not like they had all these ties to crime or something, you know?
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
No, and again, they're 16 and 17 years old. They're involved in their community. Like, there's not even people really at school that don't like them.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah, and they, like, hung out at, like, church events.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Yeah. So days later, investigators had swept the crime scene several times at that point, but had made almost no progress in the case. Lead investigator Ledley Lundblad said, Meanwhile, investigators started interviewing, of course, friends and family, hoping that one of them could shed light on to who might have wanted David or Betty dead.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Unfortunately, while David and Betty's friends were able to provide a lot of information about their day-to-day lives, nobody had any information about who would have wanted to kill them.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
and even though this had been betty's first date in the absence of a clear suspect detectives started wondering whether the killer was maybe a young man who had been rejected by betty in the recent past it's always a possibility yeah i mean sure we have really not like they didn't really have anything to go on so you gotta start somewhere and honestly that is the most that's the easiest route to go down exactly investigator lundblad said we're looking into it but at this stage we're not overlooking any possibilities whatsoever
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
So she was like, we're looking into it, but we're looking into everything.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Which again, you have to. You can't discount any possibilities when you have nothing to go on. Exactly. You got to start somewhere.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Honestly, at that point, you got to pull shit out of the air if you can.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Now, when interviews with the victims' families turned up really no useful information, investigators had to start considering alternative theories, like we were just saying, including the potential that the teenagers had, quote, met their deaths Friday night at the hands of a murderous maniac who was not acquainted with either of his victims. Likely. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
And this theory was given a little more weight when sheriff's deputies received a call from a teenager, William Crowe, who reported having a strange experience about an hour and a half before the murders occurred.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
According to Crowe, he'd been parked with a friend in the same exact area where David and Betty were discovered, and he noticed another car parked in a dark area just a short distance away. He said the driver was watching them, for sure. He said, when I saw its backup lights come on, I gunned our car out of there. Good for him.
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
The driver followed Crow and his friend until they reached downtown Benica, where he turned off and dropped out of sight. But Crow said, as far as I was concerned, that was the end of it, until I read Saturday what happened in the same spot where we were.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
huh imagine like knowing that you were in the same spot i was gonna say and like knowing that you somehow had an instinct that got you out of there like trust your gut no now toward the end of december after exhausting the really small amount of leads that they had anyway sheriff's investigators had grown more confident in the murderous maniac quote-unquote theory
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Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
One lad said, I think they were ordered out of the car at gunpoint. And when they didn't come out quickly, the killer fired a warning shot through the rear side window of the vehicle. The assailant then shot the boy. And when he fell, the girl started running and was killed as she ran, which so they're pretty much thinking the same thing here.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
That does not sound correct to me to say like, wow, that's so aesthetic. Like what? I don't know. I like it. I don't get it.
Morbid
Episode 667: The Zodiac Killer (Part 1)
Nothing of value had been taken from the vehicle, so robbery was ruled out as a motive. Nobody had been sexually assaulted, so that was ruled out now, too. But the problem investigators faced was that there was virtually no way of connecting the killer to the victims, and that made solving this case seem very unlikely.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Hey, weirdos. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about a place where the darkness never ends. Wondery Plus. It's like stepping into a haunted mansion where the floorboards creak with ad-free episodes and early access to new episodes lurks around every corner. So come join us if you dare. Morbid is available one week early and ad-free only on Wondery Plus.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Now, unfortunately, that was only going to last about a year before they divorced. And Grady ended up just really focusing on the business for a little while. He's a horrible husband, just to put that out there. It lasted a year. I'm not surprised by that. I don't know. Based on what we find out later. Marriage to him was not a fun time. Ugh.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Now, Grady didn't have to wait long to find love again, though. In the spring of 1959, during a stop in Trenton, New Jersey, Grady met Mary Teresa Herzog, who went by Teresa. Okay. One of the carnival's newest ticket booth workers, and instantly, they were in love. Now, by the time she'd met Grady Stiles, 21-year-old Teresa's experiences with men had been universally bad.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
For many reasons. For the company, for the aesthetic, the ambiance, the tattoos. The vibes. The vibbies. You got to do it all. Yeah, it's true.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
So when she was, this is awful, when she was six years old, Teresa's mother divorced Teresa's father and remarried a monster named Frank Tyler, who would go on to sexually abuse her for years. Oh, that's terrible. Frank Tyler. Piece of shit. Yeah. Given the terrible conditions of her home life, Teresa would, like, lose herself in carnivals. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
You know, it was just, like, one of those things, like... Escaping reality. Yeah, it really was. It reminded me of, like, a movie we just watched for Scream, Where the Devil Roams. Mm-hmm. One of the characters in that talks about how his father was abusive when he was younger and he would escape to the circus just to get out of that reality. Right. Which is just so sad. Yeah, it is sad.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Teresa, so she found refuge in these carnivals and circuses that would travel and they would come to her small Vermont town in the spring and summer months. Okay. She later said, the carnival fascinated me. I guess it fascinated most young people. I thought the lights and the excitement were just great. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Now, in a bid to get closer to the carnival and really, like, just envelop herself in it, she began working as a ticket taker during the summer. Then when she turned 18, she joined up with the circus on a full-time basis and finally got away from her stepfather for good. Good. Fuck that guy. Yeah. Before long, she met and fell in love with one of the rustabouts, Jerry Plummer. Not Grady Stiles.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Not Grady. And soon they were married.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
I'm trying to think. What's the news? What's the hot goss? What's the 411? Yeah. The 411s that I... Oh! What? Mikey just reminded me. What? Conclave. Oh, Conclave. Conclave watch. Came to a crashing halt very quickly. Yeah, it started just as quick as it ended. Yeah, I was watching live, though. You were? So I had it up on my computer because I was ready. She screamed, oh, new post! I did.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Now, while things started out fine in the relationship, Teresa soon found herself in a relationship with yet another abusive man. For more than a year, she suffered verbal, physical, and emotional abuse at her piece-of-shit husband's hands. She was beaten with his fists. She was pushed down the stairs while she was pregnant with their child.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And at one point, he even threw a pot of scalding coffee at her. What a fucking monster. And finally, he just, because, you know, he was a piece of shit in every way, he just grew tired of the relationship and he didn't really want to be a father. So Jerry Plummer took off, leaving Teresa to raise their daughter, Debra, on her own. She's probably much better off.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And she was earning very little money at the circus, so obviously it was hard. But to her credit, she was very resourceful, very determined. So she found a lawyer and scraped together enough money to file for divorce, and Jerry didn't contest it. Good. When Grady first saw Teresa in the ticket booth, he was immediately struck by her beauty, her charm. He just was into it.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
The problem was, at the time, Grady and his father were a top draw for the circus. And there's like a hierarchy. Okay. And he would have been looked down upon for dating one of the ticket takers. Oh, okay. Because that's like the job at the bottom of the hierarchy. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, that is interesting. So he wasn't going to move on, though.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
He was like, I'm not moving on and finding somebody else. Like, I like this girl. Yeah. So he began talking Teresa up to one of the owners, Stan Wright, encouraging him to consider her for a job as a Bali girl. Which is apparently a term for one of the singing or dancing girls in the show.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Because he was like, she's beautiful. Like, why not bring her up there? Yeah. As a ticket taker, dating a performer was off limits. But as a Bali girl, she would be another performer in the show. And their relationship would be very acceptable. Okay. So fortunately for everyone, Wright did see something he liked in Teresa and was like, you know what? You're right. Well, that's good.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Hopefully she made some more money. Yeah. And that's the thing. He gave her a chance as a performer. So for Teresa, it was a huge step up. She got some more money. And so she was able to better provide for Debra, which Teresa seems like... I feel really bad for Teresa because she seems like she's had this awful life. She's been really taken advantage of and treated horribly by the men in her life.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
But she just wants to be, like, she wants to take care of her kids. Yeah, she wants to be the best she can be. Like, that really does seem like there's a lot of, like, I really just want to do right by my kids and she wasn't done right for. Right. So it's really hard to break that bond.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Like she's not being taught how to break this cycle or that it's important to break it at all. You can just tell that Teresa does have something inside of her that just desperately wants to break that cycle. That's who she is. She makes some poor choices later, but I do believe that like deep down in there, she just really wanted to do right by her kids.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
So this move up also moved her closer to the action at the center of the show, and more importantly to her, closer to Grady. Because she liked him too. She liked him too. Within a few months, she had moved up from a dancing girl to become a sort of jack-of-all-trades within the performances.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
One of her more prominent roles was Blade Box Girl, which was a kind of assistant to the magic act, where she would step into the box and appear to be stabbed a million times with swords, but come out and be like, I'm fine. Oh, my God.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Yeah, so she was the lovely assistant, essentially. At the same time, as she was so excited to be on stage, she was so excited that Grady Stiles had chosen her as the object of his affection. Having only ever known very negative and abusive attention from the men in her life, being with Grady, she said, was unlike anything she'd ever experienced. Aww.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
I said, oh, it's happening! I said, oh! As soon as that white smoke came out, I said, oh my God, what's happening? We got an American. Which I'm shocked. That's the first time ever, right? First time ever. And like, especially right now, I'm like, wow, shocking. I know. That we managed to pull that off.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
He was showering her with gifts, with praise, attention, making her feel wanted and adored. She said Grady was such a charming man. Everyone enjoyed being in his company. Now, not long after beginning their relationship, they started living together. And with Grady, Grady was now stepping in as a father to Deborah. And it seemed like everything was going great.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
In the off-season, they returned to Gibsonton, where Teresa found work in a Tampa shrimp factory during the off-season. And within a few years, their first child, Margaret, was born. Unfortunately, less than a month after Margaret was born, she died from pneumonia. Oh, that's terrible. The situation repeated itself with their next child, David. Oh, God.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Who also died a month after his birth from pneumonia. And it was attributed to the poor living conditions of life in a traveling circus.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Now, the health problems continued for the Stiles family because a few months later, Grady Stiles Sr. was struggling with poor health too. Finally, he decided to retire from traveling altogether. Now, unable to afford the cost of living in Florida, Grady Sr. moved back to Pittsburgh and found a small apartment there. So now Grady Jr.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
is worried about his parents in Pittsburgh because they're in poor health. Yeah. And he's in Florida. So he started renting an apartment in the city so he could check on them and be around them. The apartment was a huge financial strain on them, obviously, because it's just another expense. So to help support them in the off-season, Grady Jr.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
began performing in a one-man show to make extra money when they weren't on the road. The work allowed him to support himself and his wife, but this additional work, plus the stress of traveling back and forth to Pittsburgh, and the unexpected tragic deaths of two children... That's a lot on your plate.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
It brought out a meanness in Grady that Teresa said she had never seen even the slightest hint of before. Oh, no. She was like, this came out of nowhere. He didn't deal well with stress and grief. A lot of people say...
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
That the death of a child can change a relationship, and it really depends on, one, the strength of the relationship to begin with, and things that are lying dormant in the people that are experiencing it. So obviously something was lying dormant in Grady Stiles that's just brought it all out.
Morbid
Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
So the bitterness, the frustration, the rage, and what he saw as his constant misfortune, it led him to start drinking heavily. which only exacerbated the anger. And before long, he was directing it all at Teresa.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
According to Fred Rosen, Grady was a good provider. However, when he was drinking, Grady started beating Teresa, taking care to keep his blows to her body so no one would see the bruises. Wow. And to me, that is diabolical. That is diabolical.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
I shouldn't do it somewhere that someone can see. Yeah. That's fucked up. That's dark. In 1963, Teresa gave birth for a third time. And this time the baby would not only survive, but also manage to not inherit Grady's condition. Okay. The healthy birth of their daughter Donna was a relief to Teresa, who obviously already experienced two traumatic births and traumatic deaths.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Pope Liar. Liar. He seems pretty cool. As far as popes go. Yeah, I think he's like progressive and shit. Yeah, very outspoken. Yeah. He picked a cool name. Leo. We've had a lot of Francis's. We've had a lot of John Paul's and all that shenanigans. So, you know, it's nice to see a Leo in there. Yeah. Let's fucking go.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
But the girl's health, like seemingly, quote unquote, normal mobility, seemed to fuel Grady's anger. Oh. Following Donna's birth, Grady began to drink even more than he had. He was staying out late with other carnies and sometimes not coming home for days. Fred Rosen said when he did come home, he would generally make it to the living room and pass out on the floor.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Sometimes he'd throw up first and sleep in his own vomit. Oh, fuck. In the morning, Debra and Donna would get up and they would have to step over Grady to get out of the trailer. So the children would have to just step over him in his own vomit to get out of their house. That's horrific.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Now, looking back on her childhood, Donna reflected on her childhood saying, there was nothing really good I can recall. Yeah, I mean, when you're stepping over your dad in his own vomit to leave your home. She said he always drank, continually drank. I really started noticing it at about seven because he would yell at us if he was drinking at home. That's so sad. Seven years old.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
To realize that at seven years old is fucked. Yeah. For a time, the girls could rely on school to get away from this whole abuse, but even that was unreliable because Grady would routinely pull them out of school three or four months before the end of the year to help the traveling show. It's like, how are they even moving on at school?
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
In 1969, Teresa gave birth again, this time to a daughter they named Catherine, who was born with the condition.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Okay. Donna said that night after closing, he called mom out in the show. They were arguing. She came back into the trailer crying. And then he came back in the trailer, pulled the door open, let it slam real hard. And he took $20 and he threw it at her. After throwing the money at her, he screamed, take your fucking kids and get out of my face.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Her kids. Okay. Yeah. Literally fuck this guy. Yeah, fuck him. Like he's awful. Because he does this, and then what he does later, I'm like, go fuck yourself. And in front of his kids. Oh, he does awful shit. To the girl's surprise, and this is where you really see moments of Teresa just making, like, very smart choices for her kids, and then obviously, you know, she's a very abused woman. Yeah.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Very abused, very traumatized, so she obviously makes some questionable ones later. Right. But this is one... That really shocked the girls as well because he's a scary guy. So they were surprised because their mother did not say like, oh, he's just, you know, drunkenly ranting, like just leave him alone, which often would happen. Instead, she just looked at them and she said, pack a bag.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And we're leaving. Wow. And she packed her own suitcase and they all left and they got a room at a motel across the street. Once they were there, she called her friend, Harry Glenn Newman, who was part of the circus as well. He was known, and this is what he was known by back then, he was known as Midget Man. Oh, man. Due to his small stature. Gotcha. Things were different then.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Things were real different. Things were bad then. Yeah. After leaving Grady that night, Glenn became a lifesaver. For Teresa. Aw. He allowed them all, the girls and her, to live in a small camper on his property until they all moved to Ohio to live with Glenn's mother. Wow. For several months, the children finally got to enjoy stability and normalcy of children their age. Like, things were happy.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Yeah. Without the chaos of this traveling show or, you know, a rageful, abusive, like, alcoholic father. Unfortunately, that was short-lived. Yeah. Because about four months, five months after leaving Grady, Teresa received a summons and traveled to a Pennsylvania courthouse with the girls.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
So John said he's because John looked him up because I've been obsessing over Conclave. So he was like, I should probably know this. He looked him up and apparently he's from Villanova, which meant nothing to me until John said that a lot of the Knicks players are from Villanova.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Unbeknownst to her, after she left Grady, he filed for divorce and petitioned the court for custody of the children. Even though he literally told her to leave with her children.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
You get to pick and choose? Now, she had been unaware of the divorce. Right. Because he did it without her knowing. Right. And she didn't know that he had filed for custody. Yeah. So she didn't contest anything because she didn't know it had happened. Right. And the court awarded full custody of the children to Grady. Are you fucking kidding me? Which is so fucked up. Yeah, it is.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Grady took the girls back to Florida with him. Wow. Which just breaks my fucking heart. Because I truly believe if these girls had been allowed to live with Teresa and Glenn, they would have had a totally different childhood. Absolutely. They could have started healing from things. They were young enough to hopefully forget some things. But instead, they get even more traumatized. Oh, no.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
So Grady takes the girls back to Florida with him, but only long enough to sell the house they lived in and get rid of all his wife's belongings. Yes. Oh, that's normal. Kathy later said, Catherine, said he gave all of mom's whatnots, lamps, and all of her stuff to his sister. He would not let her come back to get her clothes, which included a fur coat and some evening dresses.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
He gave away all of her clothes. That's so fucked up. Yeah. That's abusive in its own way.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
You know? Oh, he's just an asshole. With Teresa out of the picture, Grady began seeing a woman named Barbara who quickly moved herself and her daughter in with the Stiles' family full time. Catherine said later, she wanted to put herself in my mom's place. She wanted to be our mother. She tried to force herself onto us. But she wasn't trying to be like a mother.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
She was, because Teresa was known by her children. They all agree. She was a loving, caring, kind mother. Yeah. Like a mama. She was a mama. Barbara only seemed interested in playing the role to the extent that it got her closer to Grady. So she's that stepmother. She's Meredith Blake-ing it. Yeah.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Rather than actually do any parenting, most of the responsibility for raising the children, including Barbara's daughter, Susie, fell to Donna since Debra had decided to move out of the house after the divorce. Oh.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Now, after moving the family back to Pittsburgh to be near his parents, Grady's drunken, violent behavior continued without interruption, including the period where Barbara was pregnant with their child. In 1976, Barbara gave birth to a boy, the couple named Grady III, who was born with the same condition as his father and his half-sister at this point.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
and so he was like uh-oh Villanova's having a moment and I said you get Pope or you get finals yeah you do not get both no you fucking don't so Nix listen to me right now you chose Pope you got okay so you got Pope you don't get Pope you don't get the NBA finals so I know honestly I think that's a good thing John thought it was Villanova having a moment and that's bad I say you get Pope or you get finals
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
In the meantime, Teresa kept living with Glenn Newman, who turned out to be a pretty good husband and a good provider. In 1974, she gave birth to a boy, Harry Glenn Jr., known as Glennie, everybody. They were obviously very happy to have a new little baby boy, but she had a profound sense of pain and loss of having lost her children to give Grady because he was refusing to let her see them.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
So she was trying her everything she could to see them or have contact with them, and he wouldn't let them. And it's like, why did he get full custody? I mean, very different time again, but... Yeah. Despite everything though, Teresa was still hopeful that one day she was going to be able to have a relationship with her daughters again. So she convinced Glenn to move to Pittsburgh. Wow.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And Glenn was like, let's go.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
I know. So they moved to Pittsburgh to be closer to the girls so she could start really trying to get them back.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Now this pissed Grady off in a massive way. Yeah. In the winter of 1976, the full extent of Grady's cruelty became apparent when after some conversation, he agreed to let Teresa take the girls to visit her mother in Vermont for Christmas. Oh, this is going to ruin me. But rather than have Glenn and Teresa just pick them up, Oh, God. Oh, God.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Moments later, Paul Fishbaugh, who was the sideshows known as the fat man, emerged from another room holding a shotgun. Holy shit. With Paul Fishbaugh now guarding Glenn, who, remember, has very small stature. Right. So this giant man is holding this smaller man. So he can't protect his wife. So he can't protect his wife with a shotgun.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Grady then started beating Teresa viciously in front of her husband, her helpless husband. Baby Glenn was also there and was screaming the entire time. Oh, my God. Yeah. When he'd finally tired of hitting Teresa, he let them leave, but not before telling them, don't bother me anymore. Next time I'm going to kill you, Glenn, and your son. Wow.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
That was because she had agreed to let her daughters go for Christmas. Why don't you just say no? Yeah. Wow. Because he's a cruel son of a bitch. He is. He is. His cruelty continued in the years that followed, and even moving out of the apartment wasn't enough to escape it.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
In April 1978, when Donna was 15 years old, her cousin introduced her to 18-year-old Jack Lane, and the two hit it off immediately. Knowing her father would do anything he could to drive Jack away, because why would you allow your daughters to have happiness? The couple frequently met in secret, often spending time together in a park a few blocks away from the apartment.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
One evening in September, after hearing countless stories of Grady's abuse, Jack was like, I can't let you go back there. I can't just keep sending you back to this place and hearing what he does to you. So Jack took Donna to his sister's apartment, trying to give her some space to be safe. When she called home a few days later, Grady... Fucking lost it.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Screaming at her, demanding she return home immediately. And he told her, I got detectives looking for you. They'll find you. And when I find that boy that's with you, I'm going to kill him.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And she's telling him, like, he's a good guy. He just wants to, like, take care of me. Because you beat the shit out of me and are violent. For years, Donna had listened to her father's drunken rants and threats of violence against her mother and her siblings. And she'd suffered more than the others when it came to physical abuse.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
But when it came to threats of killing Jack, Donna was like, I didn't believe that he was going to go through with it.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Like, I understood that he, like, beat the shit out of us and threatened us. But, like, I didn't think he would do it outside of our family. Like, kill someone. What she didn't know was, on September 11th, Grady went down to Pitloan, a local pawn shop, and submitted an application to purchase a new H&R .32 caliber pistol.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Donna didn't return home, but kept living with Jack's sister for several more days, fearing what was going to happen if she went home. Donna and Jack decided the only way to get her away from her father for good was for them to get married.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
But she was only 15 years old. Right. So she would need parental consent. And in late September, she called her father and explained what she wanted to do. And to her surprise, he didn't object.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Donna and Jack planned to get married in a small ceremony on September 28th. And in the days before it, they took all the details, took care of everything, including applying for the marriage license, getting the blood test you had to get back then.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
On the morning of September 27th, Donna met Jack at his house and the two went out to do some shopping before returning to Grady's apartment where Donna was planning to clean for the wedding reception. So he was going to be involved in this. They weren't running away to get married. She was doing it all with him. She was involving him.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
When they arrived, Grady wasn't home, but he had instead gone down to a bar, of course, where he stayed until 7 p.m. and drank 12 double whiskeys. Holy. Yeah. So 24 whiskeys. Yeah. So they went out to get some food for the reception, and when they got home around 7.30, they found a very drunk Grady sitting on the couch. His wheelchair was nowhere in sight.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Grady said he had left it out by the front door and someone stole it. So they all were like, oh shit. So they volunteered to go out into the neighborhood and look for it. Oh, God. Oh, God. When he reached Donna, he collapsed on the ground and began coughing out blood. And they were just going to get married. And he's like her protector. Yeah. And Donna said, it didn't seem real.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
It seemed like a joke. I looked up and dad was standing on his knees, looking out the window, smiling at me. What a son of a bitch. When she asked why he'd done it, he said, because I told you I would. He is. Cruel isn't even the word. It goes so far beyond. He's a piece of absolute shit. By then, they could hear sirens coming. When they arrived, Barbara explained so that stepmother...
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
explained what they believed happened and pointed them in the direction. So she was like, he did it. Wow. Yeah, she was like, that's fucked up. And Grady was sitting in a large overstuffed chair, the gun sitting on an end table beside him. And according to Detective Joseph Stottlemyre, when the arresting officers entered the room, he said, take me, I'm ready. And he was arrested without incident.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Okay. The bullet entered Jack's chest on the left side and exited from his right shoulder. He was rushed to the hospital by ambulance, but he died a few hours later from his wounds. Oh, that's just awful. That also escalated the crime from attempted murder to second-degree murder. Grady was taken to the county jail to await his arraignment.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
I think it was because... He said he was going to. That's very much first degree. That's what I'm saying. I think that should have been first degree. Yeah. I don't think it would have mattered either way. Because in the meantime, a coroner's inquest was held to determine exactly what the fuck happened in that apartment.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And during the inquest, Donna explained that she and Jack had run off together a few weeks earlier and that her father had, quote, not been happy about the impending marriage.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
though he had consented to it. During his testimony, Detective Stottlemyre recounted Grady's statement, telling the panel of the jury that Grady claimed he had heard talk in the street that Lane, which is Jack, had been saying nasty things about his daughter, and he had taken all he could take, pulled out his .32 caliber revolver, and shot Lane. Yeah, that's not how it happened.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
But yeah, so that's cool that... I mean... Pope Watch 2025 ended as quickly as it began. Yeah. It was still fun watching them close the doors on the Sistine Chapel. I was like, this is so metal. It is. They're just like sealing them in there and they're all sitting down. It looked very like cinematic. We need more traditions.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
No, that's not it at all. Grady was arraigned on a charge of third-degree murder. And in early 1979, the case went to trial. Over the course of several weeks, a number of family members testified that Grady had made threats towards Jack and Donna, and Donna herself testified that she had been with her father when he purchased the gun.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
However, several other witnesses, including Grady, indicated he had purchased the gun because Barbara had been receiving threatening phone calls. Okay, okay. Testifying in his own defense, Grady told the jury that Donna had changed since she started dating Jack. Yeah, she was probably happier. She was more independent.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
She would sneak out of the house late at night and come home sometimes with beer on her breath. Oh, honey. Okay, Glasshouse. For real. Okay, Glasshouse. Grady also claimed that once they were alone, Jack had come at him in a menacing fashion. I bet. And he said, I don't know what came over him, but I was scared, I guess, of him killing me. Okay. I doubt it. Yeah.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
As for all the contradictory evidence and witness statements, Grady claimed all those people, including the police, got together and fabricated their stories. The police often do that. That's a real dumb thing to say.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
On February 22nd, 1979, the jury retired for deliberation and returned a little over three hours later to find Grady guilty of third degree murder. When the verdict was read, Grady began weeping at the defense table. The verdict came as a surprise to many, including the prosecutor, who actually expected an acquittal with Tom because of sympathy for his condition.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
However, while the verdict was like, yippee, It also posed some complications. Primarily, was there a jail or prison in Pennsylvania capable of accommodating someone in Grady's condition for as long as 15 or 20 years? And there wasn't. After careful consideration, the answer was no. That's ridiculous. Yes.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
In the end, Judge Thomas Harper did his best to find middle ground and sentenced Grady to 15 years of probation. Noting, quote, no prison in the state can accommodate a person with his physical deformities. That's a quote. After reading the sentence in court, the judge said, I'm not sure that a prison term would not be cruel and unusual punishment in this case.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Society doesn't require vengeance, and I felt a probationary term met the best interests for society and the defendant. The prosecution, though disappointed with the sentence, didn't make a comment. I mean, that's a tough... That sucks. That's awful. He killed a man. Yeah. Like, it sucks that nobody was willing, nobody could... Because that's the thing, it's like you can't just figure it out.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And it's like, nobody could accommodate him and that now he gets to...
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Because think about it. It just wasn't a priority back then. It's the 70s, though. It's crazy. Yeah. Anyway. Now after Jack's murder, cold-blooded murder, his sister and other family members blamed Donna for his death and refused to allow her to stay with them any longer. So she was allowed by court order, luckily, to return to Florida to live with her mother, Teresa, and Glenn finally.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Yeah, well, and I'm, you know, I don't, again, like, the Pope really doesn't affect my day-to-day life in any way, shape, or form. But, like, I was interested. Yeah. Because it is nice to see a more progressive mouthpiece. For Jesus. Talking, I think that's important. Yeah.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
So that's great. But that's really shitty.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
I know. And under the circumstances, I love this too, because Teresa also insisted Donna bring Catherine with her. And Grady did not put up a fight. Oh, wow. So they were able to go live with Teresa and Glenn.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Now, throughout the 1980s, though, life for Glenn, Teresa, and the kids was a struggle. After his tire business went under, Glenn was forced to return to the carnival circus to perform his role as the world's smallest man. And once again, Teresa found herself kind of back where she started trying to figure stuff out.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Every year when the school year would come to an end, they would have to pack up the kids and join Glenn on the road to help with their responsibilities. It was seeming to like a pattern was repeating here because that's difficult. Yeah, of course. And Glenn was having difficulty because he was getting older. Yeah. It was not easy. For more than a decade, they had had a good marriage.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
He had been a stable, very constant presence in Teresa's life. And he had treated her better than any other man. And he was a good father to the children. But as the 80s came to a close, she was starting to feel a little restless in the marriage. And she was kind of growing tired of being, you know, a constant helper and just going along for the ride.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
You know, like having to go out on the road and doing all that stuff. Yeah, it's tough. Ring all the kids. Yeah, and she sees that she's doing the same pattern, just with a nicer man, you know what I mean? But it's still the same, like, I'm not doing right by these kids by taking them on the road. It's a tough life. You know?
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And so in 1990, Teresa and Glenn divorced, and she moved out, taking the kids with her. It should have been a liberating moment, you know, because she spent her entire life waiting on, accommodating, following, having to be the assistant for men. Yeah. But she quickly found herself lonely because she's also a human being. In response, she called up Grady. This is where we get to where I say, what?
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
What? Yeah. What? Here's the thing, though. So he had separated from his wife. And in the years since his conviction, I know, trust me, I know. Me and Mikey are literally like looking at each other like, what the fuck? I agree. I'm with you on this. I'm shocked. I am shocked. I am dismayed. Grady had been on house arrest during this time because of the probation. For 15 fucking years. Yeah.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
For murdering her daughter's fiancé? So he could not continue drinking the way he was on probation. So he had scaled back, and for the first time in many years, he was pretty sober.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
So for Teresa, she thought she was seeing a glimpse at the Grady she knew when they were first dating. Okay. Because remember... She got kind of love-bombed. Yes. Not kind of.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
She got very much love-bombed. And she saw this amazing man who was like, and they had gone so far as to get married very happily. Yeah. Had children very happily. And then it was like everything just imploded at once. And then he became a heavy drinker and things got worse. So for her, I'm just trying to like, I'm just trying to like not shit on Teresa. Absolutely. Because like,
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Because we don't need somebody spewing hate and bullshit to people who will take what he says very seriously because he is seen as the word of God. Of the Lord. He's young, though. He's 69. So this one might be hanging around for a while. Okay.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
I feel like Teresa had such a shit life and such hardships that I... Yeah. And I just feel for this little family. You know what I mean? Like, I feel for these children. I feel for... I don't know.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
That's the thing. I'm trying not to, like, judge too hard for her because I'm like, I don't know what it's like to have been in that kind of... No.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And have your children be in that turmoil. I can't fathom it. I really can't. So while I don't understand this decision, I don't. I don't understand it. I don't either. I can at least stand from back here and say, I don't know what your life feels like. Right. And I don't know what it felt for you to think you were seeing a hint of who you fell in love with at first.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Yeah, you have to have empathy for the situation. So that's why I'm like stepping back from my... full-blown judgment here and trying to look at it from like you were seeing someone you you fell in love with or you thought you were you know what i mean it's just a really fucked up sad situation i really feel just awful for these children for them for really especially donna That's the thing.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Well, that's the thing. That's where I say, what the fuck?
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Right back into his... That's the thing. Like, Donna, all of them, all those kids I feel bad for. The person I feel most for is Donna. I feel so horrible for these kids.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And it's, like, compounding trauma. It's also, like... Teresa has kind of been molded since she was a child, truly, to bend the whims of men and accommodate them and kind of, you know, demean yourself for them. Like, not really think of yourself as an independent person who can do this. Who can break out on their own. And even in her moments of doing it, you know what I mean?
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Like, I feel like she always gets sucked back in with some man who's kind of taking the reins. Yeah, I mean, she's a victim. And so she's a victim of her own right. But then it's like these children are a victim of these men. And also they're, unfortunately, their mother's trauma of not being able to be without these men.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And it's like, so there's this awful, and that's what I meant when I was saying like, you can see that there was, Teresa wanted to break this cycle. But there was something broken. And she was successful for a time. that she was struggling to fix. And I think it just makes me really sad that like all of these young women and all of them were embroiled in this. Because it's like, what the fuck?
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Like, it's just like, this guy is a monster. It's just tragic. A straight up monster. And it's like, Teresa wanted to break free. That's why I just am like, I wanted her to break free with Glenn and those kids right off the jump.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Let's hope. So, you know, that's an interesting little update. Yeah. I thought we were going to have Conclave Watch for a little while. I thought I was going to get to talk about it for a little longer. I did find out there was a weird conclave that happened a while ago that took like three years, though. And I think they ended up taking the roof off the building that they were in and everything.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Because it's like, this would have been such a different story. Yeah. But Grady had to be cruel, and he had to pull those kids back just to abuse them. Right. Just to traumatize them. And it's like, I don't think they would have lived with this much trauma if they had lived with Teresa. I just don't.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
So again, for Teresa, this whole thing is, and I'm just speaking from what she's saying, is that she's saying she saw a glimpse of who she fell in love with. She saw a sober Grady who she thought could, you know, be who he was. So they were talking regularly over the phone. Mm-hmm. Still, Teresa knew her children, especially Donna, disapproved of any of this, any kind of relationship with Grady.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
So she wouldn't bring him up around them. But they knew.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And also, why are you even doing it? If you know that they can't have a part of this, it's like, why are you even doing it? It's just not something you should be doing. Yeah. Old habits die hard. Donna later said, I still wouldn't talk to him on the phone and she wouldn't talk about him with us. Okay. Yeah. Following her divorce from Glenn, Teresa moved the kids to Okeechobee, Florida.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And again, they're moving everywhere. All the time. And soon Grady had relocated back to Gibsonton, Florida, where he'd spent much of his life. As he and Teresa got kind of reacquainted with one another, she encouraged the kids to spend time with him. Okay.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And it's again, something is broken here. Yes. Like Teresa has dealt with things that, and it's again, it doesn't give anybody a pass to be a bad parent.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And I think she would probably agree that this was one of the worst choices she could have made. Because honestly, she does regret this choice later. She does. So there's that.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
But again, it does not give a pass to put your children through this kind of stuff. It just doesn't. And personally, I cannot understand it. I'm trying to look at it through a very logical, like totally kind of disconnected lens of like, well, this is what she's thinking because of what she said. And I don't want to like shit all over her because... She's been through a lot. No, that's it.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
You can't understand, but you can empathize. Exactly. I can understand. I can empathize with what she's gone through. Yes. But I cannot understand this parenting decision. That's exactly how I feel. I simply cannot. I'm in awe right now. And again, all the kids, and they're getting older now, especially too. They're like becoming teenagers and stuff.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
They're all reluctant to go down this road again because, you know, there was the murder. Because we know what happens. There was the murder. Of somebody's fiance. There was that. Yeah.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
It was a long time ago. Wait, why'd they take the roof off the building? To force them to make a decision. They also rationed their food to bread and water. Like stopped feeding them actual food. That's dark. Well, they were like, three years, pick a pope.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
At first, they were like, no, we're not into this. But when they saw that Grady was trying to maintain sobriety, and he was showing them that he was, and he was very open about the fact that he was very interested in rebuilding a relationship... This is their father. Yeah.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Again, I have a good dad, so I can't speak from somebody who has a shitty parent who has made steps to make the relationship better. You know what I mean? Oh, actually, I can't do that. Exactly. So I don't want to speak from this, like, experience to say, like, I don't understand how they could even... Yeah.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
You know, entertain this because again, I didn't have, I was lucky enough to not have this situation.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
They can paint every single part of your life.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Well, yeah, there you go. And I have people close to me, like very close to me, who had awful relationships with their parents. And then their parents tried to make it right later. And it is a very conflicting, very hard thing for somebody, even as an adult, to deal with. Because no matter what, no matter how shitty your parents are, they're still your parents.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And some weird part of you is always going to want them to be your parents.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Let's do this. So maybe we'll cover that because that seems like a very interesting little... I know, you brought that up the other day and I was like, that sounds interesting. It's a weird one. But yeah, that was an interesting update that happened yesterday. Yeah, I think that's like all the news. Celtics, Pope, tattoos. Yeah. Other than that, we're going to get into a really shitty person.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
That, yeah. I can't imagine how that feels. You know what I mean?
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Yeah. And wanting your parent.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Yes. Yeah, because like biologically we all have an... It's innate. We want our parents to be our safe place. Yes. And when they're not... I can't imagine how that throws you into like, because again, I'm very fortunate enough that I do not have parents who made me feel unsafe. Yeah, mom and papa rock out loud. They do. They rock out loud.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
So it's like I'm speaking from a place where like I can't tell you how this feels. And I know a lot of you listening are speaking can come from a place of the total opposite. Yes. Where your parents weren't and aren't and couldn't be your safe space. A safe space. And I'm sorry, because I can't imagine how that feels. And it can really transform how you make decisions.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
It can color every part of your existence for the rest of your life.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
That's the thing. And we're adding on again. I know like people I really love and care about who have gone through like dealing with parents coming back and trying to build a relationship and really putting an effort. But those parents also didn't kill their spouse. That's a whole other layer of it. That's a whole layer onto this where I'm like... Because then you had grief into it. Yes.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And blame and... And you took someone I love from me. Like quite literally. Like you literally took someone I love. And that's where I say like... Teresa, how could you ask them to do this?
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
How can you ask her to do this? And again, you're her mother. She's going to want to please you.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And that's where the safe space gets snipped for a minute. Because then she has no safe space. Because your mother shouldn't be asking you to do this. Yeah.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And I have like, I always have to pull myself back a little bit because I get real fucking mad when people mistreat their kids. Well, because you. And I'm not even a mistreated kid. No. I think of my kids.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Yes. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. No, you are. That's what I strive to be for my little goobins in my life. And you are one of my little goobins in my life. And I think of like who wronged you and I want to fucking... This has become therapy. It has. Anyway, what happened? It has.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
But yeah, I think it just, he seemed like he was trying to get sober. He was doing his best with that. And then he was making it clear to them that he wanted to rebuild a relationship. And that he felt some kind of... Some kind of remorse. Yeah, remorse. And so they softened. Okay. But still, genuine or not, he couldn't wipe away the lifetime worth of horrible, abusive, violent...
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
horrific, traumatizing memories. You just can't. And Donna says, I don't think I ever started loving my father like a dad again. Which is very sad for her. Well, you know what, though? It is very sad. That, like, she didn't ever get that ability to do that. He wasn't her dad. Well, that's... He took... I hope she knows that that is not her inability to love him again.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Okay. No, I think we have briefly touched upon this man, I believe, in a crime countdown. Oh, okay. Because when I was reading about him, I was like, why do I know this? And then I was like, oh.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
It was his inability to be a lovable person. Right. He never was a father to her. To give that to her.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And wanted to protect you. Right. So I really hope that Donna and their kids know that they have done nothing wrong. wrong in this situation and that they they were totally valid in their feelings and their hesitation here now not long after Grady moved back to Florida he and Teresa got remarried Okay.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Which seemed to have been his goal since that first phone call Teresa made to him after her divorce. And unfortunately, once Grady got what he wanted, he began sliding right back into his old ways. That's tragic.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And I'll say... Fortunately for some of the children, all of them had moved out by then. Except for Glennie, who was a teenager.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Exactly. But soon enough... Even the kids that were out of the house were starting to notice that their father wasn't around very often. And they would call or visit, and he wouldn't be there. And, you know, he'd be spending time at bars again. He was out for days. And eventually, Teresa did admit to Donna that Grady... was fully back in his old ways, like spending all their money at bars.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Abusing her again? Yeah, right back to it. And because his temper came right back, the frustrations, the anger, the rage, he was abusing her, he was abusing, like it was bad. One night in late 1991, after a night out drinking, he returned home and demanded that Teresa bring him a drink in bed. So Teresa did, but she handed him the drink and she said, this is the last drink I'm going to get you.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And in response, he grabbed a handful of her hair and yanked her back on the bed hard enough to pull clumps of it from her scalp. Oh, fuck. Do remember, too, she's horribly afraid of this man now. Of course she is. He's beaten the shit out of her for years. Which makes it worse that she is now in this position again because, like, I wish you had stayed away from him.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Because, like, he has gone most of his life also keeping that upper body strength. Oh, I didn't even think of that. Not only is he a frightening and very rage, like, raging guy, he's very, very strong. And when you have crazy upper body strength, you can do a lot of damage. Yeah, of course.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And I'm like, we didn't cover this in full. But yeah, it's the life and death of lobster boy Grady Stiles. Brady Stout Jr. It's not ringing a bell in my crime countdown part of my brain. This is one of those things that he... So, obviously, the life and death. He dies. He's murdered. Murder is never okay. But you are going to hear me say he's a shitbag of a human being.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Now, after this whole incident happened, Teresa felt that feeling she hadn't felt in years, which is, I'm fucking tired of this. Yeah. She'd had enough. And so getting, she said, this whole, that whole thing was a mistake. I should have never got, she says, I should have never gotten back together with him. And she said, but now I am facing the consequences of my actions. Oh, God.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
She thought about leaving again, but by then she didn't have the same resources or willpower that she'd had the last time she left him. And he had been getting, he had been using all their money at bars.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
So she stayed and endured the abuse, which was inevitably followed by the sense of guilt for having fallen right back into Grady's trap. It's a cycle. Exactly. By November, it really shows you how too scary the abuse cycle is. Yeah. And that like people will go back into it just because of how deeply rooted the abuse cycle is. It's like really scary and really sad.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
The fact that we treat each other this way and the fact that like we treat, people we supposedly love this way as, like, a society. We're the only species. We gotta get it together. I say that every time. Like, we gotta get it fucking together. We do. Like, this kind of shit pisses me off so much. I'm like, you don't have to be this way. You certainly don't.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
You do not have to be a fucking cruel piece of shit to the people who look to you for protection and to be a safe place. No. So by November 1992, life with Grady was fucking unbearable for Teresa and Glennie. Despite his attempts at sobriety a few years earlier, he was fully back. Fully back to being abusive, cruel, an alcoholic.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
The same man who had beaten her while her husband watched helplessly, by the way, and then had threatened to murder her son, Glenn, when he was a child. Yep. So that, yeah. And now that same son is living under the roof with him. She was desperate to get out of the house and away from him. But it seemed like no matter what she did or where she looked, there was just no options for escape.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
In the end, it wasn't Teresa who took charge of the situation.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
He resolved to do something about his stepfather and he wanted to save his mother. That November, Glenn called up the toughest person he could think of, which was 17-year-old Chris Wyant. Even though he was just 17, Chris, an occasional sideshow performer, had a very long criminal record. And Glennie was certain Chris would know what to do about his stepfather.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
I don't know what happens, but that's what I have in my mind right now. You can't... Again, no one will ever say that murder is the correct endgame for anything. It's not a good choice. So if you take that from what we're saying, then you didn't listen. You're clearly not listening. But no one's saying that. But what this is a clear...
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
show of, like evidence of, is you cannot beat someone down their entire life. You just can't. Like people explode. You just can't do that. You can't treat someone like this for their whole life. As we saw with Ken McElroy, that whole thing, you can't do that. No. Because you do lose, people lose their humanity for you because you have treated them subhuman their whole life.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Like, you know what I mean? It's like, This kid wanted to protect his mom. And it's, like, really sad. And he didn't know any other option. And it's, like, obviously he made the wrong decision. Right. But, fuck. Like, the whole thing is just, like, goddamn. He's broken down. I just wish none of this happened. It's really sad.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
So on November 26th, Glennie and Chris met at a local park where Glennie gave his friend the details of everything that was happening and said, can you just help me? Help me end this. The price would later be disputed in court, but Chris initially told Glennie he would take care of the situation for 300 bucks. In the end, he would be paid $1,500.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Regardless of the actual price, though, Chris did agree to take care of Grady and Glennie agreed to pay him.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
A few days later, Glennie would try to call the whole thing off and get his money back. So you can tell he just, he was desperate and then he was like, fuck, I shouldn't do this. But by then, Chris had already bought a gun and spent the rest of the money, so the deal went forward as planned. On the evening of November 29th, Glennie broke down and told his mother about the arrangement. Oh.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Which also shows you that this, he has remorse. Already. He hasn't even done it and he's like, I fucked up. Yeah. But you can tell the desperation in this kid because he's just like, to break down and tell his mom, he's just like, I don't know what to do.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Oh, is this like a Ken McElroy deal? He's an abusive... awful person to the to his daughters and to his wife so obviously no one deserves to be killed but i'm just saying like you're gonna hear me talk some shit about him because he deserves it yeah you gotta be real no matter what yeah i'm just gonna i'm just gonna let you know uh so who is grady styles tell me Grady Franklin Stiles Jr.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
This is heartbreaking. Yeah. To his surprise, though, his mother didn't express a sense of shock or attempt to call the police to put an end to the whole thing. Instead, she and Glennie left the house quietly, leaving Grady asleep in his chair watching television. A few hours later, around 11 p.m., Chris Wyant slipped into the trailer through the back door they'd left open.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Having been there a few times, he knew the layout, so he tried to go silently and be quiet, but he made a noise and he woke Grady up. He began shouting at Chris to get out and never come back, and Chris went back a few steps into the kitchen like he was going to leave, but then he aimed the gun and fired, and the bullet hit Grady in the back of the head and killed him instantly.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Then, just to be sure, he fired two more shots. Both hit Grady in the head, just a few centimeters from the first wound. With Grady now dead, Chris ran out the back door and fled into the night. From where they were sitting in the neighbor's living room, Glennie and Teresa could hear the gunshots.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Yeah, they're just next door. Glennie even remembered looking out the window and seeing Chris run from the trailer. Damn. And he said when he saw him fleeing the scene, he knew the terror they'd been living with, that his mother had been living with for decades, had finally come to an end and that they would not have to worry about the lobster boy again.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
That was what Glennie said. To detectives at the scene, things in the house were immediately suspicious, obviously. The killer had clearly entered through an unlocked door. Nothing was missing. And so they were like, this wasn't a robbery. This was clearly a targeted assassination. A spokesperson for the sheriff's office told reporters the next day, we've got some leads, but we're not saying much.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
So they were being cagey with the press, and it's likely because they already knew what happened in the Stiles house, and they didn't want to let out any details before they were ready. By the time they finished taking Glenn Jr. 's statement that night, they more or less had a pretty accurate understanding of how things had unfolded, from his contracting Chris Wyant through the murder.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
The following morning, they arrested Teresa, Glenn Jr., and Chris Wyant on a charge of first-degree murder based on the statements of Teresa and her son. So they basically just admitted it? Yeah. Wow. The trial for all three began in July of the next year, with the defense attorney arguing that Teresa and Glenn had been pushed to the point of murder after years of domestic violence.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
At the time, the domestic violence aspect of the case, which was known as battered wife syndrome, was relatively new and pretty novel. But it turned out they wouldn't get a chance to try it because the judge ordered that self-defense cannot be argued if it's a contract murder. Mm, yeah.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
The case was further disrupted a few days later when a mistrial was declared because there was issues with the jury, and the prosecution moved for a retrial.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
It turned out that they wouldn't end up... They would end up waiting for, like, over a year for their trial to start, and that's when they were all being tried for first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder, which could carry the death penalty. Yeah. But the prosecution didn't have any interest in pursuing that. Okay. Under the circumstances, Chris Wyant had...
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Pretty limited defense since he had been identified by his two co-defendants. In late January 1994, he was found guilty of second degree and guilty of conspiracy to commit first degree murder. And he was sentenced to 27 years in prison for each charge. Fuck. But it was going to be served concurrently.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
He was released from prison in 2009 after serving a minimum of 15 years and he has lived out of the spotlight. Okay. Out he goes. Having been ordered for a new trial, though, Teresa once again offered a self-defense argument. Her attorney, Arnold Levine, told the jury she honestly believed she had no other alternative but to participate in this terrible act.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
In response to her defense, the judge ruled that the self-defense argument could be allowed, but only if Teresa was willing to admit the role she played in hiring her husband's killer, which she did. The stipulation struck a lot of people in the legal community as weird and unusual. Law professor Stephen Goldstein told a reporter, I don't understand why she has to testify to it.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Saying that whether she testifies to her role or not, it wouldn't change the outcome. Right. I don't really understand that either. Why are we making her say she has this much of a role in it?
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Yeah, she was just told after the fact. She didn't do anything to stop it. Right, but I mean, she didn't go out and hire someone. Are we really making her testify to that?
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Not Franklin. Not Franklin. Not my oldest. I know. Was born June 26th, 1937. What does that make him? So I think at that point he's a cancer. He's a cancer? Okay. I don't know a lot about cancer men. I do. He fits. Oh, yeah.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
But regardless of whether it was an appropriate stipulation, she did confess her role and offered the domestic abuse stories as her motive, all of which were backed up by testimony from her children and others who'd known her over the years. All of them knew how he was with her.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
I was going to say, I mean, hello. In the end, her defense was moderately successful. Although the jury did find her guilty, they all agreed the circumstances warranted a lesser charge, and she was convicted of manslaughter and conspiracy to commit first-degree murder. It was the first time in Florida's history that a jury was allowed to consider self-defense in a case of contract murder. Wow.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
So this is, like, historical. After the verdict was read, the prosecution agreed that it was a successful compromise, calling it, quote, a fair resolution of a very difficult issue. In August, a judge sentenced Teresa to 12 years in prison for her role in the murder, followed by five years of probation. And she was released from prison in 2000. Wow. A few months later, Glenn Jr.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
was offered a plea deal in which he would confess everything in exchange for the same sentence as his mother. But apparently Teresa insisted he reject the offer and go to trial.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
oh i don't know about that as a result he went on trial for first degree murder and conspiracy to commit first degree murder and after a very brief trial they deliberated for just over an hour and found him guilty on both charges yeah and sentenced him to 25 years to life for murder yeah why wouldn't you take a plea deal yeah and when there's a charge of conspiracy and like yeah capital murder and all that or not taking that deal yeah i don't know why you wouldn't take that deal
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
But sadly, according to the Florida Department of Corrections, Glenn Jr. died on March 5th, 2014. Oh. But they didn't release any details regarding his death. Oh, that's so sad. I know. So that's it. That's how it all shakes out. Wow, that's tragic from start to finish. They're out of jail, but Glenn Jr. passed away.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
No, they never released his death. That's really sad. It's a really sad, sad story. Sad situation from beginning to end. It just shows how dangerous it can be to... I hope everyone has been able to move forward from it in some way, shape, or form. And there's been some growth somewhere. Yeah. And I hope those kids have been able to move forward from it because like, fuck.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Like that's when, I think it was, I think it was Donna or Debra. One of them said that like they have no happy memories from childhood. How could they? They just can't think of it. And I'm like, that is horrible. That's so, so sad. Like how, and Donna loses the love, somebody she's in love with, her soon to be husband. And then had to be around that man again.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
The third child of Edna and Grady Stiles Sr. Grady Stiles Sr. was a carnival worker and performer. He was billed as one of life's human oddities. Oh, that's terrible to say. There's a lot of this kind of like talk of quote unquote freaks and such. Grady Sr. was born with electrodactyly, which is a physical deformity where one or more fingers on the hands or toes on the feet are missing. Oh, okay.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
He had no childhood and then lost his whole life after. Like there's just no winners in this situation at all. And he was just, he was trying to protect his mom. Well, that's what breaks my heart is like, again, I don't think I have to keep saying it. No. We're not condoning murder or contract murder in any way, shape or form.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
But like you just see the desperation in that kid, especially the way he acted afterwards where one, he tried to stop it. He tried to stop it all. And two, he went right to his mom and was like, I did something bad. And like, I want to stop this.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Fuck, that is a really sad case, dude. Yeah, bum me out in, like, a way I can't describe. Yeah, it's just, like... I need to do something different for my next one. Yeah. Because, like, this really bummed me out. We have listener tales coming up, so that's good. Oh, there you go. You guys will soothe... You'll be, like, bomb on my soul. Yeah, yeah. It'll be good. Oh, man.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And Nicholas will be on our next Listener Tales. That's soothing to my fucking soul. Maybe he'll be in a better mood.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
But he'll make me feel better.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Yeah, and go like if you are a parent or if you just like love a child in your life. Go tell them that. Go be awesome to them.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And if you have parents that suck ass, I'm sorry. Yeah, thank you. I'm sorry. Mine didn't suck that bad. That sucks. Yeah. And I'm your parent. But you know what? Okay. If you're listening and your parents suck, I'm your parent now. Yes, you're one of her goobins.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
So if it doesn't feel easy, that's okay. And it shouldn't be up to you. No. But sometimes it just works that way. But people are gonna people. People gonna people.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
This condition, though, gave Grady Sr., and it often gives people who are dealing with it, the appearance of having claw-like hands. Okay. So kind of like those of a lobster. This led to his being billed on the sideshow circuit as the Lobster Man. Now, despite being a very rare condition, it affects actually roughly one in every 100,000 babies born. Wow.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Electrodactyly ran in the Stiles family as far back as the 1840s. That's crazy. In some cases, it'll occur in both the hands and feet. But in Grady Stiles' case, it only occurred in his hands, the senior. So... When the couple's third child, Grady Jr., was born, no one was really surprised to discover that this child had inherited the condition, which was present in Grady Stiles Jr.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
's hands and feet. Oh, okay. Now, according to author Fred Rosen, the Stiles family had always... not really listened to the advice of doctors who warned against having children because of the likelihood of them inheriting this condition. Because especially when it's of the hands and feet, it leads to a very difficult life, you know? Yeah, right.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And according to Rosen, their attitude was, quote, hell, if a child was born a freak, it was the child's problem, the child's and God's. Oh, okay. That's one way to look at it. Which is like, what an outlook. That's your problem, little baby. Yeah, a child that didn't ask to be brought into this world. Like, that's fucked up in a way I can't describe. In fact, Grady Jr.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
's sister, Sarah, had also inherited their father's condition, but it only affected one arm and one leg. Years into her adulthood, actually, Sarah had her non-functional leg amputated and replaced with an artificial limb. Unlike his sister, Grady's affliction was far worse than even their father's and prevented him from being able to walk. He had to rely on a wheelchair for mobility. Okay.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Now, at the time of his birth, the Stiles family was living in relative poverty in Pittsburgh's North Side. They were barely getting by on the wages they were getting from the carnival circuit. And for Grady, early life was a challenge, to say the very least. Again, you feel really bad for young Grady. Yeah, he was given a lot to deal with. A lot to deal with right out the gate. Yeah.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
With his father constantly on the road with the sideshow, there was no one around to normalize his condition, really. Oh, yeah. which was a problem. And so he was treated as a spectacle whenever his mother took him out of the apartment, which is, that must be very difficult. Fortunately, just a few years after he was born, they did relocate to Gibsonton, which is a small town in central Florida.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And this is very interesting. In the decades that had preceded them moving there, this had become a popular place to move for retired circus workers. Oh. And those who were seeking refuge during the off-season of the circus and the carnival. So due to the large number of performers in town, they had also, the local administration had also established very, like, unusual zoning laws.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And this allowed the residents to keep elephants, tigers, and other large exotic animals on their property. Damn. Which would solve the problems also of boarding the circus animals. Right. But for young Grady, this kind of solved the problem of him feeling like an outcast.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Because now he's hanging out with a bunch of circus workers and sideshow workers and the kids are sideshow workers and a bunch of exotic animals. Yeah, he fits in. He's not weird. Like, he's just one of them. But it didn't do anything to solve their financial issues. That's about right.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
As a result, the Stiles children were all expected to just kind of forego traditional schooling and just pitch in at the circus to help support the family. Yeah. As the only fully able-bodied child, Margaret, the oldest, worked the ticket booth until she actually ended up passing away from a brain aneurysm in 1951 at the age of 18. Oh, wow. This family had so much to deal with. Yeah.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
This is morbid, and we're not going to get right into it, but I just wanted to say we're talking about a case today that is rough.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
For Grady Jr., he was just going to live a life of performing. That was what he was going to do, just as his father had. From one small town to another, the family spent the majority of their lives traveling with the carnival, and they were billed as the Lobster Family. Oh. Yeah.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Throughout the first half of the 20th century, circuses like Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey were so popular around the country, particularly during the Depression and war years. You know, when a family could expect a day's worth of entertainment for a very small fee and just to take them away from all the reality that was going on. Exactly, reality.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
In fact, Fred Rosen said, in those days, the carnival was indeed a family. In those days, people joined up for the duration. They stayed with the same carnival through thick and thin. They were there for each other. The fat man, the bearded lady, the rustabouts, and the strippers. It just became like a kind of, you know, it's like American Horror Story freak show.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
How they become like a family, you know. Yeah. In the present, it would obviously be very illegal for parents to just take their kids out of school and be like, you're working at the circus. For good reason. But under the circumstances and given his experiences in a, you know, quote-unquote ordinary community, Grady Jr.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
was honestly happier with the sideshow than he had been just in Pittsburgh going to school. Well, that's good. Not only was his family able to just be together all the time, but he also loved performing. And he liked being in the spotlight. Like, it... He was okay with it. Seemed to feed him. Like, he really liked it.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
And when they weren't on the road, they retired to Gibsonton, and there he was treated as just any other child in town. So he wasn't dealing with that bullshit, you know? And he was able to live a relatively normal childhood among other children of circus workers. Yes. Like, their normal. I was going to say, a different kind of normal. What they saw is that.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Despite the acceptance he found in Gibsonton and his ability to, you know, help the family by working at the sideshow circuit, Grady Stiles' life was definitely one of hardship. It's not like he was just coasting through. He had a lot to deal with. And it wasn't long before this kind of hardship that was just kind of hardwired inside of him was leading to a lot of bitterness.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Because again, it's not like he was treated nicely by everyone he came in contact with. You know what I mean?
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Yeah, and I'm sure the people that came to the circus sometimes would probably dehumanize him. I'm sure that's going to live in your nervous system at some point. Yeah, definitely. So he was often frustrated, often bitter. But he was very determined to prove himself to be as capable as anybody else.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
So one thing he could do, which he very much fixated on, was building up his strength in his early teens, and he developed incredible, upper body strength. Really? Yeah. And that he used this kind of to compensate for his lack of, you know, dexterity, lack of being able to really move around like he felt everybody else could.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
At the same time, he adapted to his condition really well and had learned to use his hands in like a claw-like fashion. So he could hold objects, he could write, he could do other like very complex tasks with his hands. Okay. Which... When you look at it, you're like, wow. That's amazing. At this point, you're like, good for you, man. You really took lemons and you made lemonade out of them.
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Episode 675: The Life and Death of “Lobster Boy”, Grady Stiles Jr.
Good for you. Now, by the early 1950s, Grady Sr., his father, had decided it was going to be much more lucrative for the family to go into business for themselves. And they struck out on their own. Now, around this time, 17-year-old Grady Jr. married his first wife, Deborah Brady. That was in a small ceremony in Tampa, Florida.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Hey weirdos, Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
That was really good. Thank you. I liked that. Thank you so much. No, Ash has just gotten me into Yellow Jackets, so I'm almost done with the first season. I dig it. She's not, yeah, she's not current, so don't give her any spoilers because I will come for you. Yeah, don't give me spoilers. I'm trying to. I'm current. Yeah. Guys, we're in the fucking trenches. In the thick of it. We are.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Because of this, when the metal workers from Walter Fields and Sons began caulking the seams of the steel tank, the flaws were pretty apparent immediately. According to author Stephen Paleo, I believe it's Paleo, I hope I'm saying his name correctly. It sounded like you said his good name. His good name. I don't want to ruin his good name. I hope I'm saying his good name correctly.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Stephen, I hope I'm saying your good name correctly. So according to Stephen, he said, quote, molasses leaked from several different seams, squeezing through the rivets and sliding down the steel walls like lazy brown rivers, plopping onto the pavement below and spreading slowly into thick pools. Fun.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Whenever the men would hose off the tank's exterior, beads of dark molasses would just reappear almost immediately at the seams. Oh, no. We should probably empty that tank, y'all. Yeah. Yeah. The job was frustrating and pretty arduous as well. But finally, just one day before Christmas, the tank was finished and it was deemed ready for the molasses shipment. It's a Christmas miracle.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
It's a Christmas miracle. We can fill it with molasses. On January 12th, 1919, the ship, which was called the Moliro, arrived in Boston Harbor from Cuba carrying 1.3 million gallons. Wow. 600,000 gallons of which was going to be pumped into the USIA's tank in the north end of molasses. Blink, blink, blink, blink. 1.3 million gallons came over on that ship. Damn.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
600,000 gallons was going into that tank. I don't think there's any way for me to actually appropriately picture that in my mind. Yeah, I just can't. My brain won't conceive of it. No. It's a lot of molasses. On one boat that came over? One ship. It was like a big cargo ship. I mean, yeah, of course. But damn. I know. That's crazy. It's crazy.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
So despite the freezing temperatures and even colder wind chill, because remember we're in Boston in January. Honey, it's cold. The molasses, which had been warmed in advance, moved smoothly through the pump into the tank. And by the following morning, the shipment was completed. It probably smelled so good in there. Oh, so good. Like gingerbread cookies. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
With their job done, the ship left the docks, headed for Brooklyn, where they were going to deliver the remainder of the molasses. Now, not long after the ship had left the harbor, residents and workers in the area of the wharf began to hear some sounds. They heard some loud cracking and pinging sounds. That's never a sound you really want to hear.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
So this was a sound the warm molasses was mixing with the cold, thick molasses that was already in the tank. Now, this was not entirely foreign to hear these kinds of sounds because since being built several years earlier, locals had grown accustomed to like some metallic groans emanating from the tank as like different liquids settled. Yeah. Because it is a cold tank.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
It's like, you know, you're going to hear some sound. Yeah, and especially mixing the warm with the cold. Exactly. What the locals didn't know, though, at this time was that the mix of old and new molasses increased the temperature inside the tank, which set off the fermentation process and produced gases in that process. Oh, shit.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
I'm trying to get there. It takes us a long time to get through a show, John and I, so. They're coming up on episode seven. Of the first season.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
With the tank now holding a whopping 2.3 million gallons of molasses. Holy shit. It was nearly at full capacity. Not even completely. Leaving very little room for expansion, and it was just trapping the gases in this small amount of head space remaining in the tank, which is not good. That's not good.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Sometimes that happens with my sourdough starter, and it sounds like there's a gas leak in my house. There you go. Drew and I were literally sitting on the couch one night, and it was like,
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
and I was like what the fuck we literally searched everywhere we were like oh my god and it was my fucking sourdough starter damn yeah that's scary that was very scary that's why I can't do sourdough I'm too scared there's so many reasons you can't sourdough freaks Elena out it's the feeding it it's the Elena thinks it's too human it's that thing telling you it's hungry and I just I can't I can't do it man
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
So the first few weeks of January in Boston, like normal, had been frigidly cold. Temperatures were as low as two degrees. But on the morning of the 15th, as often happens. We got a heat wave. They awoke to find an unseasonably warm day. It's just suddenly like, oh, we're in spring now. And unseasonably warm for Boston in that time is like 48 degrees. We were like, shit.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
so there's so many things i want to say i was gonna it's really good though i was gonna signify something to the listeners but i can't i love christina ricci i would lay down fire of a thousand suns i would lay down my life yeah i love her so much that's that's all i can say about it but um also uh i'm sure we're weeks out at this point but uh probably pretty cool that tobias forge was on the show do you guys understand how hard it was for both of us to keep that from you
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
We're here for a light sweater day. I don't know how warm it is today, but I've been rolling without a jacket. Oh, it's gorgeous today. It's gorgeous. Let's see. I was just going to say we have to. It's 43 degrees. It's 43 degrees. And I'm like, it's gorgeous. I'm like, oh my God. It's also so fucking windy out today. It is. It's literally got like 90 degree, 90 miles per hour winds.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
And we're like, it's beautiful out. Yeah. The wind gusts right now are 23 miles an hour.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
But we saw the sun. So there's that. Yeah. We always look for that. So yeah, it's been freezing in Boston. But on this day, the 15th of January, it was unseasonably warm in the 40s. Everybody wanted to go out. Everyone's outside because it's gorgeous. And you got to get some air.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
On the wharf, the workers from USIA, the workers there began preparing for the days to come when the giant molasses tank would be emptied onto railroad cars and taken to Cambridge where it was going to be fermented and processed. This was going to be a big job, so they were getting ready for it. All right.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
A little past 12.30 p.m., everyone on the wharf was going about the usual business, loading, unloading cargo, milling about on lunch breaks, normal thing. After such a long period of freezing temperatures, the warm weather, you know, like we always say, it's the 40s, it's early spring here, so let's go.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
And many of the residents and workers, like we were saying, didn't want to miss a chance to be outside on such a lovely spring day. Because you get so fucking cooped up. And everything's dry and you feel like you just get cabin fever. That's what everyone's outside. Yeah. Like you like we were saying, everybody's outside. It's a beautiful day. Then they heard the sounds.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
I can't. The sounds would freak me the fuck out. These are loud, scary sounds. It's like apocalyptic. Oh, it's awful. And it was unlike anything they'd ever heard coming from the direction of the giant molasses tank. Later, Boston police officer Frank McManus would describe... Of course. I could not let that go. I know, I couldn't. Frank. Oh, Frankie McManus. Frankie McManus?
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
That's like, yeah, that's... Frankie McMahon? Ah, that's my guy. That's my gold boy. You know Frankie McManus. Obsessed. You know? He would describe it as, quote, a machine gun-like rat-tat-tat sound and an unearthly grinding and scraping that... A bleeding that sounded like the wail of a wounded beast. He should probably write something. Frankie McManus, if you don't write a book.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Frankie McManus is a goddamn poem. That's fucking terrifying, though. Because you're probably sitting there like, what the fuck is that? Did the side of the earth just get cracked? I just scared the apocalypse. The four horsemen were on their way. I'd be like, what's going on? Did you hear the trumpets? Yeah. I'm still waiting. That idea scares the shit out of me. That happens sometimes, though.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
the trumpeting yeah like people hear that shit i think it's all fake personally but i but i appreciate it because it scares the shit out of me no matter what it's fake because otherwise the end of the world would have happened like it's definitely fake but like the videos whenever they used to show those where it was like we're hearing trumpeting in the sky sometimes people hear other things though that sound like it yeah and it's still scary as fuck yeah no matter what so i appreciate how terrifying it is i don't want to hear shit like that no i don't want that i don't keep that away from me
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Royal Albert Lehman, a brakeman for the Boston Elevated Railroad, was driving the train when, quote, Oh, God. Joseph Hiller was on his way back to work on the docks when he heard it and he felt the rumble. When he looked in the direction of the harbor, he, quote, saw the big tank open up and fall apart. Holy shit.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
While the wall of molasses 50 feet high in the front rolled out over the ground with a seething hissing sound. 50 feet high. And if you've ever baked with molasses.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Just a jar of molasses. It is so viscous. Think of that. And now think of, like, what that can do. It's like the blob. It's literally like a horror movie. Well, and I assume, like, I mean, it's rushing at you, first of all.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
So, at a second, you can't move. And, like, it's like quicksand. Oh, yeah, you're stuck in it. Think of how sticky that is and thick. Oh, my God. How did they even clean that up? I know. So later that day, the Boston Globe reported, once the low rumbling sound was heard, no one had a chance to escape. Oh, that's horrifying.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
And the scene on the docks, which was very calm, very serene a few minutes earlier, had been thrown into total chaos and panic. From his train car on the elevated tracks, Lehman, who we talked about before, looked out the window and saw, quote, a black mass bearing down on him, darkening the sky. Jesus Christ. Just before he felt the tracks buckle and the train begin to tip. Oh, God.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
It was so fun. It was so fun. He's always a fun guest. He's delightful. He's a very, very nice man. He is delightful. And we got to have Doug Bradley on. Doug congratulated me because he congratulated Tobias on his success. He congratulated Elena on her book. And he said, I didn't congratulate you on anything, Ash. I said, that's fine. I just exist. And he congratulated me on being wonderful.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
In his bedroom on the third floor, Martin Clowardy came to several feet of molasses. And he said, it didn't dawn on me that it was molasses I was in, but it was already all around me. And he's in his apartment. So he broke through his fucking, oh my God. Martin told a reporter from the Globe, I thought I was overboard.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
A pile of wreckage was holding me down and a little way from me, I saw my sister. Oh my God. Now the Clowardy's house had been hit by the giant wave of molasses and knocked from its foundation. Oh. Take that in. It had been knocked, a house was knocked from its foundation. So he like he came to where? Like he was he was the whole house was sent into the elevated train line. Oh, my God. Yeah.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Martin said it seemed as if the house had split in two when it hit the elevated structure. And I was in one side and my people in the other.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
The Clowerty's house was just one of the many structures in the neighborhood that was completely demolished by the wave of molasses. According to the Globe, the buildings seemed to cringe up as though they were made of pasteboard. As Mary Musco looked out her window and across the street to the Clowerty's house, she said she saw the entire building, quote, fly into the air. Oh, my God. Yeah.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
You can't even conceive of that. You can't conceive of it. No. Like, it's so gnarly what happened here. Moving as fast as 35 miles per hour, the wave of molasses that flooded the North End devastated everything in its path. Of course it did. Six buildings in the immediate vicinity of the tank were completely gone, just totally demolished, flattened. Within seconds, I'm sure.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
And one of the steel beams supporting the elevated train line was knocked down. A steel beam. A public works horses who were kept in the stalls near the wharf were either smothered in the flood or, quote, so severely injured as their stables collapsed that they were shot by policemen to end their suffering. Oh, that breaks my heart. Yeah. Oh, I hate that. Oh, God. Oh, God.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
A few yards from him, two train cars had been knocked from the tracks and thrown into nearby lampposts, knocking them free from the ground. So the lampposts are flying. Like, this is literally catastrophic. A disaster. Apocalyptic. Just things, houses, trains, cars flying everywhere. And it's probably not occurring to anyone in the moment that it's molasses.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
So they're probably just like, what the fuck is this? Like, how would you even... It would never occur to you that that's molasses. Like, what the fuck is this? Right.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
at the diner on commercial street across from the wharf robert burnett was eating lunch with his family when the tank burst he said there was a rumble no roar or explosion that's what he told the boston post and he said i thought it was an elevated train until i heard a swish as if a wind was rushing then it became dark i looked out the window and saw this great black wave coming it didn't rush it just rolled slowly it seemed like the side of a mountain falling into space
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Oh, God. Of course it came quickly, but we all had a chance to jump and run before the windows began to crack. Then it poured molasses. Holy shit. Like, what? How do you even, like, look at that and... How do you even do anything? I'd be like, what is happening right now? I'd be frozen with fear.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
He grabbed his family and they fled the restaurant. But by the time they'd reached the front door, the molasses had reached the top of the 14-step flight of stairs, blocking the only exit. Oh, no. Instead, the Burnetts rushed up to the roof where they watched in absolute horror as the entire neighborhood was overtaken by this flood.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
I said, thank you so much. Doug Bradley forever. I'll remember that for the rest of my life. Doug and his wife, Steph, are two of my favorite people. They're very cool. They're just delightful people. Yeah. But yeah, that was a fun little like surprise we had because Tobias and Doug are our good buds there. Because he called him Toby through the whole thing. Toby. It was amazing.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Now, naturally, those closest to the tank suffered the worst of the damage. A freight agent at the Boston and Worcester Street Railway Company, H.M. Dorley, was working in one of the sheds about 15 feet from the tank when he heard the giant, loud, massive crack and the ground shook. So weird, as you're saying that, the wind is going crazy and shaking the house. It did.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Doralee told the post, the broken parts of the tank missed our shed only by a matter of inches. Wow. If they had stuck it, well, I wouldn't be talking with you. Damn. Parts of the tank struck other houses and they crumpled like eggs. How we escaped, I am at a loss to explain. Little short of a miracle. To say a house cracked like an egg. Crumpled like an egg. Crumpled like an egg. Oh my God. Yeah.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
He's awoken the people to a true issue. Finally, maybe this would lead rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our health care system.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
B.E. Kingsley, who was a worker at the Bay State Railway, was equally as close to the tank when it broke. He said where the tank stood, there was no tank. Instead was a mighty wall of some kind, a giant wave of molasses, and it was sweeping rapidly down upon the office, gaining momentum every second. I turned and ran into the outer office, calling a warning into the clerks there.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Doug Bradley's voice is the most calming voice I've ever heard in my life. Very soothing. I need to be like, can I call him when I'm having a panic attack? You should. Just be like, Doug, why not? Just be like, calm me down. He reads books on YouTube. Oh, yeah. So if you ever want to hear Doug Bradley read a book, you know, that's what I'll do next time I have a panic attack.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
so he and his co-workers ran for the exit but it was too late because a 15-foot wave of molasses hit the building and sent everyone and everything inside flying as the building collapsed around them jesus it wasn't just those working under the tank or near the tank that suffered though as more than two million gallons of molasses was tearing through the very narrow streets
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
It swept up everything, people, animals, everything, hurling them several feet into the air, just sucking them down. Those not in the direct path of the flood still risked being hit by heavy timbers and other debris that was flying out of this flood.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
When the Clowerty's house was toppled by the wave, Martin's mother, 65-year-old Bridget Clowerty, was picked up by the wave and thrown across the street.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Bridget landed hard on the ground and then a large piece of the home's roof fell on top of her and crushed her to death. Oh my God. It's unthinkable. You live 64 years and that's how you go out? Yeah. Jesus. It's so violent. Oh, it's awful. It's brutal. That's the thing. It's violent.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
And what's crazy is this is sometimes looked at, especially from people outside of Massachusetts or Boston, as like, oh, the Great Molasses Flood. Like a silly thing. It used to smell like molasses in Boston afterwards on hot days. And it's like, uh-huh. That's horrible because it's just a reminder. But nobody teaches anybody about it. No. Of course it sounds hilarious. It sounds hyperbolic.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
The name, the Great Molasses Flood, sounds hilarious. It sounds like it would be whimsical and smell like gingerbread. It sounds like something that would happen on fucking Phineas and Ferb. It does. It just sounds silly. Yeah. It wasn't. It was very, very, very brutal. It really was. People lost people that they loved. And in horrible ways. Yeah.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
The other members of the Clowardy family made it out of their house, but it would be several hours before they learned the fate of their mother.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Yeah. The wave of molasses struck the area hard, but an equally serious problem was getting into the area to help those that were affected by all of this. People are just trapped because it's also just like, doesn't it harden after a while too? Yeah, it's like crusty and shit. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
He can just read you a story. There you go. But it was a lot of fun. We got to talk about the new album, which has finally been announced, Skeletor. Very cool. And I got to hear it. A little bit of a flex. Real early. That's a big flex. I'm excited about it. You guys are going to love it. And I can't wait to see everybody at the shows this year so we can all freak out together.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The molasses had covered several blocks of the city in depths of two to three feet.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
It's got a different vibe. It does, but it's so fun.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
it's cool i think it's a really cool it is so fucking good you guys have heard satanized so fun uh the music video for that is awesome we got to see papa papa perpetua and we got some inside scoop on that music video yeah so if you haven't listened to that episode you gotta go listen yeah you gotta listen because there's a little there's a cool fun fact in there there is toby confirmed toby confirmed if i may
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
It was really cool, though. And you guys have been so sweet. The comments on that video so far, you guys are just really sweet because you know how excited I am about it. Everybody's just been really kind and I appreciate that. As they should be, Queen. This is a win for all of us. It is. And you're all going to fucking love the new album.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
And I can't wait to see you and hang out with you at the ghost shows because I love running into people who listen to the show at those times. As Adore Delano says, party. Party. Let's go. Party. So that's really fun. We hope you dug it. 2025 has been pretty sweet outside of the entire world crumbling. Well, you just, I think it makes you. In my own little bubble, it's been.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
So once the syrup had been washed away, large teams of men would follow behind scrubbing every surface with stiff bristle brushes to try to get it all because it's just sticky shit now. Yeah.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
By the time everything had been cleared away, the flood was determined to have caused millions of dollars in property and infrastructure damage. Injured more than 150 people and killed the following 21 people. Patrick Breen.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
William Brogan, Bridget Clowerty, Stephen Clowerty, John Callahan, Maria D'Estasio, William Duffy, Peter Francis, Flaminio Gallarani, Pasquale Lentosca, Michael Sinnott, James Kennedy, Eric Laird, George Leahy, James Lennon, Ralph Martin, James McMullen, Cesar Niccolo, Thomas Noonan, Peter Shaughnessy, and John Sieberlich. That's so sad. We have, I mean, from... We have people in their 60s.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
We have a 10-year-old. We have a 17-year-old. We have some 20-year-olds. We have two 10-year-olds. Pascual Lentosca is also a 10-year-old. Peter Shaughnessy is 18 years old. Peter Sinnott is 78 years old. Oh, my God. Yeah, it's just, it's devastating. It is. It's tragic.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Now, once the initial shock and trauma of the event had subsided and they could survey the damage, what everyone wanted to know was how the fuck did this happen? What happened? It sounds like it was just built too quickly. And they didn't know that. So everybody's like, what the fuck happened?
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Just looking back now. Yeah. When he visited the disaster zone in the North End the day the tank collapsed, Mayor Andrew Peters told the press, quote, Not only to prevent a reoccurrence of such a frightful accident, but to place the responsibility where it belongs. Now Peter's statement was exactly what one would have expected from a politician in the wake of a tragedy.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
But it turned out that determining the cause of the collapse and identifying a responsible party was going to be a little more challenging than anyone had anticipated. Yeah. By the following day, the Massachusetts District Police's explosive expert, Walter Wedger, stated he was, quote, Okay. Okay. I guess that makes sense.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
It makes you cling harder to the things that are. The wins. That are good. That's the thing. It's like the wins. You got to celebrate the wins right now because like. Because they're few and motherfucking far between. Outside of those, it's rough. So celebrate your wins. Yes. Be excited about the things you want to be excited about. Exactly.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
While the Boston police conducted their investigation, the USIA announced they would be conducting their own investigation under the direction of Arthur Gell and led by professors Arthur Gill and Arthur Miller. So many Arthurs. I love that it's just a committee of Arthurs. Yeah, just Arthurs. And they were professors of Harvard and MIT, respectively. I mean, I believe them. Yeah.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
So a representative from USIA told the press, we feel sure there was no explosion. And if there was, it was caused by some outside force and not from within the tank. Well, it could have been within the tank because the tank is so pressurized. Exactly. That's the thing. Like, I don't think there has to be an outside explosion. No.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
In the weeks after that, the USIA's investigation focused on their theory that, quote, an anarchist climbed a ladder and dropped a pipe bomb into the fermentation vent. And that's what caused the tank to explode. That's quite the leap. Just an anarchist. Like what kind of anarchist gets up? I don't think most people would say, you know what I'm going to do today?
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
I think I'm going to explode the molasses tank down the street. I don't know how that would occur to you. It's a strange message. It is. What exactly are you trying to say? Now the thing is, we can be like, that's silly business. But it wasn't totally out of the realm of possibility.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Because in the early decades of the 20th century, anarchists around the United States did use bombings or the threat of bombings to take a stand against anti-immigration politicians and corporations they believed were exploiting workers. So, like... So it's silly to, like, think about, like, somebody climbing a molasses tank and throwing a pipe bomb.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
But you can see why they at least threw the theory out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because also they just don't understand how this is all working. Well, you got to start somewhere. Exactly. So USIA attorney Henry Dolan said, we know beyond question that the tank was not weak. And you have to remember, they're saving their own ass. Yeah, because that's a whole ass lie. Maybe it just broke and burst.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
They have to blame it on something like an anarchist climbing the thing. He said, we know that an examination was made of the outside of the base of the structure a few minutes before its collapse. And he insisted that whatever happened, it was not the company's fault.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Despite USIA's certainty that they were not to blame, District Attorney Joseph Pelletier took the case to the grand jury seeking an indictment against USIA for 19 counts of manslaughter, clearly believing they were to blame for the disaster.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
I saw Elise Myers, who like, again, who doesn't love Elise Myers? I saw her say something about how she almost got embarrassed because she got very excited about something. Yeah. And someone told her to like calm it down. Fuck that. And she was like, I almost got embarrassed. And then I said, fuck that. Like, I am very lucky to be excited about things. So I'm going to continue to. And?
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
On February 13th, the grand jury reviewed the case and found that while the tank did not completely comply with the law fixing a minimum factor of safety, there was insufficient evidence to justify the indictment. Um, yeah. Okay.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Simply put, the court and the state's investigators rejected USIA's bomb theory and believed that shoddy craftsmanship was at least partially to blame for the tank collapse, but that there wasn't enough evidence to prove it. So they said, no, we don't think somebody threw a bomb into the thing. We do think there was some structural issues, but we don't think there was enough evidence.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
To prove that? I would feel – I feel like the entire molasses flood should be enough evidence to prove that some of those – I think that's pretty good evidence. Some of those faulty bits there had – like that's all you really need. Well, and in the months, then years that followed, the courts would rule against the company in civil cases. Yeah. Ordering them to pay millions in damages. Yeah.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
So they basically said – So they did get there. Yeah. Right. Right. and the one that investigators had considered in their early investigation, is that the dramatic increase in warm weather triggered the fermentation process, causing a buildup of carbon dioxide inside the small headspace of the tank.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
And if the tank had been properly constructed and held to high standards of safety, it likely could have withstood that buildup of gases. But in Jell's race to beat Prohibition, he had allowed the tank to build pretty quickly and kind of poorly. And under the circumstances, the tank walls were unable to withstand that pressure build. And when it became too much, the entire structure just exploded.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
I mean, that's what pressure does. That makes the most sense. Think about a pressure cooker. Yeah. There's 2 million, 2 million, right? 2.3 million. 2.3 million. Gallons. Gallons of fucking molasses in there. So it's not like it just exploded and like some molasses oozed out. No, it makes sense that that much chaos. Exactly. That that much like tragedy fell.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Because molasses is also a thick, viscous liquid. Yeah. If it's exploding, it's taken out everything. Yeah. Thick. It's got some mass behind it. It's not like this is just something with nothing behind it. It's not like a water tank. Yeah. And even that would cause damage. And you look at how thick molasses is in comparison to water. Yeah. Of course. And heavy. Exactly.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
How much damage those can do. That's the best way to think of it. That's essentially what it was. It was a pressure cooker. I was just going to say. Now, when considering the entire scenario, author Stephen Paleo wrote his good name. His good name. Author Stephen with his good name. I don't want to mess up his good name. No.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
He wrote, the substance itself gives the entire event an unusual whimsical quality. Yes. Allowing for it to easily fall into the category of folklore that's, you know, like told half seriously year to year. Yeah. In fact, one of the more lighthearted facts of the story is that for decades after the flood, the North End still smelled of molasses on warm days.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
And people will say even now, they'll be like, oh, even now on warm days, you can just smell molasses. And it's like, uh-huh. Also, you can't. But imagine how triggering that was for people who had lost a loved one or themselves been injured. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing. And it's like, so that was always like the thing. That was like a funny thing.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Why the fuck are you on the planet? What does all of this even mean if you're not excited about things? Not all the time, obviously. Be excited about things. If something excites you and gets you going and makes you excited, be as excited as you want to be and don't feel embarrassed about it. Especially if other adults are trying to be like, you're so weird, you're so cringy.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Like, oh, on warm days, you can still smell the molasses so much it leaked into the landscape. But like the reality of the flood was anything but humorous or whimsical. It just wasn't. Because of its chemical makeup, molasses, like we said, is real thick, real goopy. And given the right amount of stress and pressure, it can pick up momentum very quickly and move at insane speeds. Mm-hmm.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
35 miles an hour? Like you drive in your car at that fucking speed. Ferris Jaber wrote in Scientific American, because of this physical property, a wave of molasses is even more devastating than a typical tsunami. Wow. Yeah.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Yep. Like we said, moving at speeds 35, like nearly 35 miles per hour, the flood grabbed everything in its path because it was also sticky. It could grab onto things. And it would toss it into the air or crush it under the immense weight of the liquid itself.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
And once it settled, the liquid returned to a more gelatinous state, which would trap people, animals, and property in like an iron vice grip. Even more terrifying is the fact that because of its viscosity, it's almost impossible to move, much less swim in molasses. So if you found yourself dragged under the wave, you would have died a terrible death because you couldn't move. Exactly.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
You were just being eaten by it, essentially. It is only due to the incline of Copse Hill that the flood slowed down at all. Like, thank goodness there was an incline. Yeah. Because if the landscape had been a downhill slope, the death toll would have been considerably higher. It would have taken out hundreds of people. Oh.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Despite the horror of this whole thing, there was some good that came out of it. At the time of the flood, Americans were pretty accustomed to courts ruling in favor of corporate interests over those of the people. As such, most people likely assumed no one would be held accountable for the disaster, even though the evidence was strongly suggesting lax safety protocols and sloppy work.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
But to everyone's great surprise, Bostonians soon learned that sometimes the courts will do the right thing. All right. In the years-long civil suits that followed, Judge High Ogden repeatedly ruled in favor of victims over the USIA. Hell yeah. Frequently awarding more to those victims whose suffering had been substantial, too.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Ogden basically awarded $6,000 or nearly $600,000 today to people who were killed immediately, like 10-year-old Maria DeSazio, because she was killed instantly. So he would award that to her family. They deserved that. And according to my good man's Good man. Good name. He said then he gave seven thousand five hundred dollars to people who suffered before they died. Like George Leahy.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
He was trapped in the basement of a firehouse in this little 18 inch crawl space and tried to keep his head above molasses for four hours before he was asphyxiated. Oh, my God. What a horrific way to die. Horrific. Horrific. You can't put a price on that. Oh, no, you can't.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
But the disaster also had a significant influence on the realm of public safety, both in Massachusetts and around the country. Following the flood, new regulations were put in place that, you know, it did a lot, but it would also require architects and engineers to show their work and get their plans signed off on by building inspectors and safety regulators.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
That's crazy that that wasn't already a thing that was happening. No. My good man, Stephen, said the Great Boston Molasses Flood did for building construction standards what the Coconut Grove Fire did for fire standards. It's so wild because the entire time we've been talking about the Molasses Flood, I've been thinking about the Coconut Grove. Yeah.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Because that was also a devastating event that changed the history of Boston. Of course, yeah. Now, all of those who experienced the Molasses Flood firsthand have since died. And these days, the story kind of rarely comes up in discussion of Boston's history. It really doesn't.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
That means that they've never had something to be that excited about and what we should feel is pity for them. So make sure that you are excited about the things you should be because you have earned your excitement. Everybody's just looking for something to be excited about. Yeah, what are we on this planet for if you can't get excited about shit? I thought, you know, like... Get excited.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
But thanks to my good man, Stephen Paleo, and local journalists, those who lost their lives in the Great Molasses Flood of 1919 remain remembered today, thankfully, because they won't let them forget. No, that's an important story to tell. And it's Stephen Puello, I think it is. Puello, I believe it is.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Yeah, I think I said it wrong. I apologize if I said it wrong. My good man, Stephen. Wow. We're linking all his sources in the show notes, so you can definitely go take a look at what he has to say. Go support the good man. My good man, Stephen.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
with his good name wow that is a tragic fucking tale it's a very tragic tale and it really is interesting though wild that they don't there should be in massachusetts at the very least it should be a whole section in history i mean think of how much time which again we should yeah we spend on the salem witch trials because we're in the area and i never ever learned about
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Teach people about this because it's also, it's a good lesson in how doing things quickly and cutting corners can lead to absolute catastrophe. Yeah, disastrous events. Yeah. Wow. So that...
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
is the tale of the great molasses flood in boston well thank you so much for that as tragic as it was it was definitely fascinating tale yeah you can read up more about it yeah a little deviation from like murder which is always nice yeah it's just it's a different kind of tragedy yeah one that is interesting and needs to be talked about more yeah because those people need to be remembered yeah for sure but as always we hope you continue no what we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
You know how weird to keep it. Yeah, just don't cut corners. No. Whole ass everything. Don't half ass things.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
And get excited about whatever the fuck you want to. I'm excited. And I hope you all have shit to be excited for. Yes. I hope you do. Big, small, medium, in between. Doesn't matter. I'm manifesting that for all of y'all. I got a new couch and I am fucking stoked about it. Get excited about it. Go crazy. I just start jumping on the couch like Tom Cruise. Celebrate that.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
You just slide through the living room in your underwear. I just might. I just might. You can do...
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
i love it was that risky business yeah risky business yeah all all the tom cruise you know it's so funny i'm of the age that that just makes me think of um rob's character never been kissed oh my god yeah that's also a great one a great movie but wow don't ever think too deeply about it no definitely don't just take it for what it is it's pretty horrifying when you think about it at its core yeah watching that as an adult for the first time you're like oh oh
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And this right here, this little thing you're listening to, is Morbid! Morbid! This is morbid. I was trying to sound like Victoria from The White Lotus. Thank you. There you go. I think that's her name, Parker Posey's character. I have no idea. I haven't watched that yet. Oh, I know. I don't.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
that's so cool and then i watched it as an adult for the first time like a few years ago and i was like oh no it's dark as fuck it is it's dark but i love it it's a horror movie at its core it's a horror movie that scene at the prom when they're dancing no the no It's Erase and Rewind. I have been obsessed with that song since I was like six years old because of that movie.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
That's a diabolical scene. That's the thing. It's rough. It's different. But you know what? I'm going to talk about something pretty terrible right now. Well, it is morbid. So... Coming off of a really sneakily horrifying movie, we're going to go into something that is equally sneakily as horrifying. Oh, is it? Molasses. What? Yep.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Yeah, like straight up molasses. We're going to talk about Boston's Great Molasses Flood of 1919. If you've ever been on a duck tour, you know they mention it. Come on to Boston. We'll tell you all about it. We will. Oh, my God. Do a duck tour. It's so fun. Do a duck tour if you come to Boston. It's a lot of fun.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
And you get a lot of nifty little history facts. You'll learn a lot. You do. Also, do some of the... I'm not... We're not being paid by, like, the city of Boston to do this. I'm just, like, if you're... Those walking tours, too. Oh, my gosh. I love those. A lot of them are fun. They are. They dress up like, you know, like they're from the period. Yeah. Like Minutemen. Yeah.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
You know, the revolution, all the fun stuff. Do it.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Study the revolution. This was not... great at all uh and it's like one of it's remembered and it's mentioned but i feel like it's lesser remembered and mentioned as we go on i didn't learn about this in school yeah which is pretty actually the first time i ever learned about this was on a duck tour Yeah, see, and that's crazy.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
The fact that we don't talk about this, like, it's a wild story, and it had a high death toll. This was a tragic, tragic event that happened in Boston. I don't know a lot about it. Yeah, it caused an unbelievable damage to one of the city's oldest neighborhoods, and it injured more than 150 people. Damn. And 21 people died. Yeah, that I didn't know. Including children.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
There were children that died. I mean, not, you know, like, in one life over the other, but, like, it's awful. Yeah. And again, for an event that was so like remarkable and very strange, like it's a strange event.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
A molasses flood, like that's weird. It's still kind of unknown exactly what caused it to happen. It happened at the Purity Distilling Company. Their molasses storage tank was the one that burst and dumped its contents across the North End. And it really is one of Boston's most... bizarre pieces of history and folklore to this day. It's so tragic and so bizarre.
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Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Boston has a lot of bizarre history, actually. We're pretty bizarre. We're bizarre. We're bizarre, kid. So by the final months of 1918, Boston, like many other cities around the United States, Had been through it. Been through it. That summer, the influenza pandemic hit the city really hard, and there were more than 200 deaths by the end of the season.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Thousands more were going to be lost before things were even under control. It was really bad. The pandemic had forced a lot of the theaters, nightclubs, and restaurants to close down. We've seen that before. We've seen that repeat. Yep. And the city cemeteries had been forced to erect like circus tents essentially on the grounds in order to hide the backlog of unburied coffins from public view.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Yeah. That's brutal. Yeah. It was as though there was nowhere in the city that somebody could go to just avoid reminders of tragedy, loss, and hardship. It was not a good time. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Now, in addition to the calamity caused by the flu, the end of World War I presented a lot of challenges to those whose businesses had been forced to kind of like pivot and reorient themselves to accommodate increased manufacturing needs of the military. The United States Industrial Alcohol Company, the USIA is what I'll call them.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
For example, they had been one of the nation's largest producers of industrial alcohol for the military during the war years. But with the demand for munitions kind of dropping in the final months of the war, the USIA kind of found themselves in a position of having to, again, pivot the other way and develop new products and strategies just to remain in business.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Now, before the war, a certain percentage of USIA's output was grain alcohol, and many on the company's board felt that the shift back to producing grain alcohol was precisely the type of quick pivot necessary to keep this company going, at least for a short term. Yeah. The problem, though, was that retooling the Cambridge plant to produce grain alcohol was going to take a lot of time.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
It takes me a long time for. I don't know if it's your bag. I don't. Every time someone mentions it, I'm like, maybe. Yeah. I don't know why it doesn't. I love it. And it's like a great show. I would recommend. I would Rebecca Nend it to most people. I was going to say, I don't know if.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
And the production of the liquor itself took time, and time was not something that a lot of people had.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Yeah, it was in short supply at that time. The constitutional amendment banning the manufacture and sales of alcohol in the U.S. had passed both houses the previous December and was set to go into effect in January 1920. Oh, no. That meant USIA would have just a little more than a year of production before ceasing operations completely. So they needed to get out all they could.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Yeah, they got to get out. But the company, you know, determined that if they could distill a sufficient amount of alcohol in the first quarter, they would have enough time to get it bottled and shipped out before prohibition went into effect, thereby saving the company. That November, USIA's company secretary, Arthur Gell, placed a large order for molasses from Cuba.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
This was going to be scheduled to be delivered in mid-January 1919. That gave Gell and the company enough time to retrofit the Cambridge plant, you know, like get it ready to do this kind of production, to caulk the massive storage tank on Commercial Street, which was on Boston's Wharf, and develop a schedule for round-the-clock production once the molasses actually arrived.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Now, Jell had been integral to the operations and really all the strategic planning of the company and had also been instrumental in guiding them through what was really like uncertainty in the war years. Like he helped them kind of stay the course. So if anyone could pull off the temporary orientation of this plant, it was going to be Jell.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
maybe now to those who'd lost their jobs to the pandemic closures or you know so weird to hear that it really is like history really does repeat itself it surely does and so they either lost it to the the pandemic closures or they lost it for you know in the downturn of demand for manufacturing the usia's new production strategy even if it was temporary was a welcome piece of news to them because they were like i'll take anything at this point
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
The retrofit of the distillery and the resealing of the tank meant dozens, if not hundreds of new job opportunities were now arising. Which is great. And these were job opportunities for metal workers, machine operators, and plant hands, all of whom were going to be working like round the clock overtime to get everything done on this like really tight turnaround timeline.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
Still, filling these positions wouldn't be as easy as it would be under normal circumstances because, again, the outbreak of the pandemic had kind of knocked out countless ordinary able-bodied workers. So it's not like everybody was ready to jump back to work. So Jell was going to have to take what he could if he was going to have everything ready on time. He just had to work with it.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
i don't know if you would love it you don't know if i like it no i mean maybe i'll give it a shot i mean go for it you like do it you're your own person you're alive live your best life bitch um but i love i'm liking this season and i was just playing elena a clip of uh parker posey's interview where she does all her weird voices her southern accent Tsunami. Tsunami. Well, that was a good one.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
So already we're seeing like, uh-oh. Yeah, not great to start out like that. And I'm sure this isn't shocking, but unfortunately, significant problems presented themselves almost immediately. Oh, goody. The North End tank, which was to hold the molasses when it arrived, had been pretty hastily built in 1915 to meet the unexpected demands of war. I feel like you don't want to hastily build a tank.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
A giant tank. Yeah. And you don't want to do that. And even a tank, really. No. No. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Let's talk numbers. Traditional in-person therapy can cost anywhere from $100 to $250 per session, which adds up pretty fast. But with BetterHelp online therapy, you can save on average up to 50% per session.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
And this month, BetterHelp is giving you the biggest discount on starting therapy that I have ever offered on this show with 90% off your first week. Guys, don't miss this. Thank you so much for having me. You can join a session with the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life. Plus, you can switch therapists anytime. Your well-being is worth it.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Hey weirdos, Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
And that's not totally up to everybody else. No.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
That's a good school, man. That's a great school.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
You have to. And I'm like, well, I did. Guys, I hope you... I mean, I talked about this like weeks ago, the Finch app.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Yeah. Somebody who would have actually used it. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
I want to know if you guys did it. Did you do it? Did you do it? What's your Finch's name? Just yell it really loud and I'll listen. Oh, they did. Okay, yeah. A lot of you did. I heard you. Yeah. Somebody...
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Well, I was going to say, it's also very teenager.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
larry we have a larry larry thank you for trying yeah no no they named their finch larry oh i thought it was larry who tried it no i'm sure we have a larry who might may have tried it as well maybe i don't know i believe you i'm just we just finished watching um season six yeah final episode of buffy if you listen to the rewatcher you know how we feel about season six yeah i left the room during the season six finale so we're feeling some type of way right now i faked a walkout
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Which again, very typical of a lot of teenagers.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
I'm not trying to be, like, silly here when I say it's very Gossip Girl-esque. Like, you know what I mean? Like, the whole, like, kids living very adult lives, having very adult drama. Yeah. But in, like, a kid's setting. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
You know, as groups of young men do. Just, you know, just... Kids being kids. Boys being boys. Guys being dudes. Yeah. Guys being bros. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
What the fuck? This is so entitled like spoiled rich kid behavior. It's very cliche. Yeah. Like this part of it. It's very like what you think spoiled rich kids in Manhattan are going to be, you know? Not necessarily what they are, but like this is very typical of what you would think. Yeah, it's very stereotypical.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Which is like if he's willing to do it to people he doesn't know, of course he's going to start doing it. Like you can't trust that kind of person.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Yeah, it's true. She did a housewife-style walkout at the reunion.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Yeah. And he was just allowed to get away with it.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Wow. Yeah. Jennifer sounds like such a badass.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
She sounds to me like a... Like a young Blanche Devereaux. Yes. You know, like she's got that vibe to her where she's just like, fuck it, I can do it. Yeah, she's a straight shooter. She's a sass master. I like it.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
I really, I like Brock. I do too. Okay, good.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
They do. I mean, they yell about it on Housewives seasons.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
I would talk about it for the rest of my life. For the rest of my days. That would be the first thing I brought up. Any new person I met, I'd be like, can I tell you this crazy thing that I saw? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, I would. Yeah. Most people, forgettable. That girl, not forgettable. Not forgettable.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Yeah, and I mean, he's just had a bag, a literal bag of condoms thrown at him. Yeah. In public. Yeah, he might be. So that might have made it a little weird.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Misjustice was in here, but she left. Yeah. She left halfway through that case. She did.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Well, it's like that doesn't line up with like how he was acting earlier. No, it doesn't. Unless that was just like directly from the girl like throwing a bag of condoms at him. Yeah, maybe. Maybe he was just like thrown off for a minute. Maybe. I don't know. But he was off before that too. It all sounds weird.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
I'm looking at the scratches on his face right now, too. They look defensive. They absolutely look offensive. In my opinion. In my opinion.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
That is... That's a no for me. That's a no for me. One of the most bizarre stories. Bizarre is the perfect way to describe that story.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Not one bit of that makes sense. No. Whatsoever.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
You're literally saying that you put your arm around her neck and like really quick though, you made sure to say really quick. Really quick. Somehow flipped her into a tree. Yeah. Yeah. And then she just died in the tree really quick. And you just knew that. That's my favorite part is I realized she was dead. Yeah. Interesting. I'm sorry.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
If I got into a little tussle with someone and they just flipped into a tree, I wouldn't automatically assume that they were dead. I'd be like, wow, that was weird. Let me help you up. Like that would be, and I wouldn't just be like, wow, I bet you're dead.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
And then you just went home and showered and went to sleep.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
She's like she's an independent woman. She is. Yeah. Getting her shit done.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
And how awful. Like that this poor girl's last moments were filled with that. Her front tooth was loose. That's a violent struggle.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Your bras aren't that tight. We've said it before. It's very difficult to strangle someone. It takes a lot of pressure and time. Consistent pressure.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Yeah, it's fantastic. That's honestly such a rare viewpoint for such a young person.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
No, of course not. Because everyone wants to have sex with him. Yeah. Because he is conventionally, according to some people, attractive. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah, that totally, that checks. That's a perfect argument. That's not based on opinion at all. Yeah, people don't have varying, like, what they find attractive. Definitely not.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
To be like, well, I'll figure out how to get it myself. Usually it's just like, well, mom and dad won't do it.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
That they put themselves in these positions. Exactly. This is very much a victim blaming strategy. Yes. Of, well, what did you expect?
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Yeah, that's a cool thing to do when somebody is dead and can't defend themselves. Also, how do you know? Yeah. How do you know? Well, you don't. And she's dead, so she can't defend herself. And that's the strategy.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Oh, I love the passive use of found himself. I just found myself sitting across Central Park when he had a dead girl. He did not walk in there. He just found himself in that situation. I just looked around and suddenly I was there. What a nice way to say that.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Yeah. You can't have it both ways. That's very much like the Brock Turner effect where it's like, you know, he lost everything. He could have been, this kid could have been like an amazing athlete. And it's like, I'm sorry, are we talking about, who are we talking about here? Who lost everything? What part? Victim or aggressor are we talking about? Oh, that leads me.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
It's very much talking about it. Like one, this happened to him. He just found himself in these circumstances. He didn't do it. This happened to him. And two, let's talk about... His losses. Him and his losses. His future.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
We think before we speak. I'm a head out, yeah. We listen. I'm a head out. We listen and we judge. Yeah, I listened and I am judging harshly.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Imagine if everybody thought that way. Fight for justice. Imagine if everybody thought that way. When somebody gets murdered, it's just like, well, nothing we can do now. That's it. Oh, that's nice. Oh, cool. Yeah. Let's just move on. Sure. That was great for her family. Yeah. Let's blow by that literal life that was stopped in its prime.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Yeah. I mean, if you look at the scratches, I wasn't there, so I can't tell you if a cat made those or not, but I would be shocked if a cat made those. Yeah, same. I can tell you that.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
That's even wilder that like... Where he's he moved like from the cat to like actually know it was her.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Like you were really going to try to lie about that.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
What a savvy, savvy person. That is wild. And, like, picture a Manhattan cab driver.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Oh, yeah. It wasn't a quick move. No, it was definitely not that quick, like, oops.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
he's a white man, a rich, well, I shouldn't say rich, but he is a... He was wealthy. And he's socially in a higher echelon white man. Yep. You could have said, you know what I mean? Like you're not in a position where it's scary for you to say that an accident happened. You know what I mean? Where some other people it may be
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Genuinely scary to say it because you're just not going to be believed immediately. It's like you are one of the only people, you know, one of the only kinds of people that can say that was an accident. You will at the very least be considered to be believable. You're so right. That's a really valid point. Like the innocent until proven guilty.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
It's like that's really only the case for certain people. Yep. And he happens to be one of them. And he happens to be part of that kind of people. Yeah. You know? I agree. So it's like the whole like, I'm like, so why didn't you? You know, like you really like, that's weird. It's weird. And again, this isn't even like a, this isn't even like a stranger, which would, that would be weird enough.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
This is somebody like you genuinely know and cared about, spent a lot of time with. Many, yeah, many instances. Dated, yeah. Like, why wouldn't, I don't know. It's just very strange to me. It's a very removed position to be in. It feels that way, yeah.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
They were very clearly considering. There was some like passion behind, you know. Yeah, they were considering both sides. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Yeah, but no. Yeah. Like, what? But not really. Looking back, I'd have to say yes, but, like, not in my heart. But not in my heart. Like, okay, well, that doesn't really help us here.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Yeah, I don't know how, like in that area, how they are now. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
That's awful. I understand, again, that this is like a job. I understand the whole thing.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
but like that tactic to me it's shitty is like dirty pool it is like that is just I don't know like I don't see the integrity in that no I completely as a strategy I just don't if you can if your case is strong you shouldn't have to malign somebody who's dead's dating history yeah I completely agree you know you just shouldn't have to and like to do that I don't this is just me personally I think it's yucky I do too
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Because again, there's... If you can win the case, win the case.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
I just think it's yucky. And especially when somebody can't be there to defend themselves. Exactly. Like, I don't know. And when that person was murdered.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
a whole other layer of trauma and... No one's private life like that should be splashed around for their family to hear. No. When they've been murdered... Right. They have had the ultimate injustice done to them and now you're adding on to it? Yeah. It's insult to injury. Like... I don't know. Like that just like having, I don't know. I don't get it. I think it's, I understand it's a tactic.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
I understand that defense attorneys have to do things. Yeah, of course. And I understand it's a job and it's a valid job and all that shit.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
But that particular tactic just doesn't do it for me. I don't get it. I just think if you can win your case, win it some other way. Agreed. If it's a good case, you'll win it some other way. Agreed completely. Without having to make like slut shame a dead girl. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
I mean, nothing you can say can bring someone back. I was going to say nothing you can say can bring someone back, and that is just a... That case is, like, what happened that night is so brutal. Yeah. And it's like, I don't understand how you reconcile that later. I just don't understand.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Yeah. But who knows? Because, you know, people are walking around here. We don't have to insert our opinions.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
That's a bad day. That's a lot of cocaine, dude. That's a bad day. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
I have my own thoughts about that, but... Okay. Wow. That is... Something. That's an unsettling one on a different level. It is. Because like... It kills me that, like, we will not know what happened.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
That's what kills me, is, like, for her family to not have any real idea of what happened, except that she was brutally murdered.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
That's what I feel so bad about, is, like, And she was so young. Yeah, she was really young.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
That's the thing. I'm like, are you, like, you're not doing the work here. That's the thing, like.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Well, and, like, one thing you can say is, like, he was just... He's an entitled... He was an entitled guy. He was an entitled teenager. He was an entitled young adult.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Like, plenty of people said that. Like, that's the thing, and it's like... Whatever happened that night, something awful happened to her. And whether it was an accident or not, it was brutal as fuck. And I just can't see.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Like, this doesn't, like... It doesn't scream accidental to me. You're going to have to explain to me more... Like I don't get it. I don't understand it. My brain is not putting this on to that side of the aisle.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
It's just watching someone be able to go live their life.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Well, that's the other thing. Come on. It's like when you said that name, I was like, what? Yeah. Like, you got to be shitting me. And weirdly, I didn't know this case.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Yeah, that was strange. But I hate when they give those kind of nicknames, like the preppy killer. It's very tasteless. It is. Because that's also a way of taking away some of the sting of the reality of it. He's just a preppy guy. He's just this preppy high society guy.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Just caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. I hate that a lot. I do too. I hate that a lot. I hate it. And I feel really bad for Jennifer and really bad for those who care about her. I know. I agree. I hope they feel like they got some kind of justice at some point. I hope so. But it's a little upsetting. It is. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
So it'll be a nice little palate cleanser. Nice little palate cleanser, if you will. Oh, and this is the end of the episode, so hopefully you're still here. Hi. If you are seeing on Spotify, we're just going to start opening episodes with this and possibly closing with this as well. Honestly. If you are seeing a bonus episode designation on Spotify, we don't have bonus episodes.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
We don't have anything behind a paywall, like a bonus episode or anything like that. That's a Spotify issue. Yep. They did something like an update with their system or something like that. We have been begging to get that removed, but it's across the board, I guess, like an update that happened, and they have yet to be able to remove it.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
We don't have any bonus episodes behind a paywall, nothing like that. What you are seeing as quote-unquote bonus episodes that look like they're locked, I think it shows you like that it's locked or something like that. What those are is they're showing our Wondery Plus week early episodes as bonus episodes behind a paywall, which is not what they are. It's a very misleading thing.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
It's very frustrating. We understand why that would be like, what the fuck? Yeah. Like where are these bonus episodes and why are they behind a paywall?
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Yeah. You don't, if you, wherever you, you know, this is, I think this is a Spotify issue only. So if you go to other platforms, you're not going to like, I listen on Spotify too. So I'm not like shitting on Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
But if it bothers you to see the fake bonus episode that doesn't exist, you can go somewhere else to listen to it.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Yeah, let them know that it's really misleading because we want it taken down as well because we have been getting a lot of feedback that you guys think that we're putting bonus episodes behind a paywall. And I promise you we're not. We will never do that. We're never going to put bonus episodes behind a paywall. No.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
It's just not something we're going to do where it shows up in your feed as like, oh, you want to listen to this? Go pay money because it's not in our real feed. It's not our vibe. That's not the vibe. So I promise you, we'll reiterate this at the beginning of the next few episodes too just because I want everybody to know that it's not a bonus episode behind a paywall. It's just not. Promise.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
So, yeah. With all that being said, we hope you keep listening.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Brock surprised me because, to be honest, the name Brock, like, gives me pause sometimes. We're conditioned from a certain television show.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Yeah, so it's like I... I love that. I love that about Brock.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Well, it becomes part of her personality, part of her character, part of her— Every facet. DNA that goes on her, you know, resume. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Yeah. I wish I had dated, like, more different people in high school.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
I think of Cruel Intentions. I'm the Marsha fucking Brady of the Upper East Side and sometimes I want to kill myself. That's a direct quote, not me. I love that movie. I'm going to go watch that later. She's a fucking icon in that movie.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Oh. I haven't checked on my Finch today. Oh. Oh, my God.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Everyone is so good in that movie. Everyone's A plus in that. That movie is A fucking plus. The fact that they tried to remake it Don't get me started. I think they're actively remaking it into a TV show right now. Yeah, stop. Because you can't remake that. You can't bottle that time. No, you can't. In that It cast, you cannot bottle that. So good. It's got Tara Reade in it.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
What are you doing trying to make that again? I always forget that Tara Reade is in that. She starts the whole damn thing. She sure does. Hell yeah.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Yeah, sorry. That's what makes us think of that.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
They just wanted the best education, but they weren't thinking of, like, making him a well-rounded individual. Yes, exactly.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
His mom sounds like a badass in that respect. She does, definitely. Like really working her ass off for a kid.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
I was just going to say this sounds very like written by a showrunner. It does. You know?
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Well, my Finch is in Sydney, Australia. Yeah. Mine is in Taipei. Hey, guys in Australia, if you see my Finch Gatsby walking around there, tell him I said hi.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
That doesn't even sound real. I know. That sounds like something somebody made up. It does. To make me feel stupid.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Wow. It's very like... Pinkies up. Yeah, see, I'm psyched about my kids knowing karate. There you go. And how to, you know, beat the shit out of a man. Chop someone in the throat. There you go. But like, I guess, yeah. Different strokes for different folks. Different vibes for what's important, I guess. I think you should go be the president of the Knickerbocker Grays, personally. It sounds wild.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
I'm looking it up right now because I've just never heard of this. I had never heard of it before either. I mean, the good news is their 142nd season is starting. A lot of seasons. I didn't realize they had seasons. Yeah, apparently. It's like a team. This is very interesting.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
Oh, yeah. Without writing poetry. See, and let me just like quick little thing. Secretive charm is never charming unless his secret is he's like a vampire. Like that's the only.
Morbid
Episode 665: Robert Chambers: The Preppy Killer
That's the only like a real vampire. Legit, babe. Legit. Yeah, you never want secrets. It's not a good thing to go after.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Hey weirdos, Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
So, yeah, they kept on taking patients, you know, like I said, of all different kinds, like people who didn't wouldn't necessarily be, quote unquote, institutionalized. Sure. And, you know, now the recreation programs were being cut like it wasn't this nurturing farming community anymore that they were learning things. It became crazy overcrowded. They were not being monitored.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
They were not being stimulated in any way, shape, or form. They would just leave them to just like wander around doing nothing. Master, do you like me? I do like you. They are monsters. They would end up being like sexually assaulted, physically assaulted by staff, by other patients. Like it was a literal, it was a hell house. Like it is called a hell house.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
It's awful. And the only attention these patients were receiving at this point, like they were being totally neglected. Right. And if they did get attention, it was abuse. That's all it was. That's all the attention that they were getting. And so staff was also being replaced with completely unqualified people. They were allowing doctors with suspended licenses to continue working there.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Meaning the state of Maryland had deemed these people not suitable to practice medicine anymore. What? What?
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Yeah, it's nuts. Nicholas gets it. Again, the abuse was widespread and it was awful. Aspiration pneumonia was a leading cause of death there, which happens when, and especially in this kind of environment, when feeding procedures are basically not being followed safely. They would force feed patients. They would feed people laying down oftentimes. They would use improper feeding tubes.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
In fact, the laying down while feeding was like a thing. Like they were constantly being fed while laying flat on their back. So stupid. Yeah, that is stupid. Nicholas. This is wild. This is a little wild.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
He's really going. It's kind of freaking me out.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
And it's, like, how is nobody training them to do a better job? Like, to learn feeding procedures. Because it would cost money. Yeah, exactly. Now, deaths from neglect and torture were just...
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
skyrocketing at this point there was also punishments like they would be you know thrown into rooms by themselves and left there for days they would be hit with bats they would end up with missing teeth they would be hit with belts like horrible shit horrible shit Mayor Vincent Gray, the director of the D.C. Department of Human Services at the time. Were there human services at the time?
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Well, he said he was forever haunted by the place and the sights that were seen, even from the outside there. So he said the place was inhumane. It was a very negative experience. And he told the Washington Examiner his most vivid memory of the place was seeing— and this is very upsetting, just so everyone knows— was seeing nude residents paraded outdoors to be hosed down by staff members.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Oh, my God. Yeah. You have to be demonic to do that to somebody. You have to be demonic. So a Washington Post article, there was a quote in there that said, workers here, because of frustration and lack of help, tend to abuse residents. Of all of our residents, I'd add, some 400 don't belong here. It's difficult. It is difficult. It was difficult.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
You can't claim overstimulation and frustration. Like, control yourself. Right. In many incidents, the facility is contributing to the handicap. So they're saying, like, a lot of times these people aren't coming in here with any issues. But they are creating issues while they're here. Right. Medical experiments were happening. They were putting them naked in freezing cold baths. What the fuck?
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
I need fall more than I need oxygen. Wow. And it hurts. I want it so bad. No. Like I'm there now. Like, it's hurting me. I'm in pain right now. Literally May 2nd. Yeah, that's my favorite response is whenever I say that, somebody just goes, checks calendar. It's this date. And I say, no, I know that. That's what hurts is that it's not October.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Which often caused the deaths. Some death certificates would say... Be quiet. Some death certificates would say they died from burns, which is awful. Tons of patients were crowded into padded rooms together and left for days with no food, nowhere to sit, nothing to do. They also utilized adult cribs where they would strap them in there and they wouldn't be able to leave. That's really sad.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
There was also a morgue in the basement, obviously, because these places have to have one. That makes sense. But this one was like one that they could like expedite. If someone died, they would just rush them on down there and scoot them out to get buried with no one looking. And they were buried in unmarked graves in a big field right on the property. Mass graves. Like, tons.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
That is so fucked up. Nothing. And it's very creepy now because if you look at, like, aerial shots of this place, or if you go there, which, by the way, you can't legally go there. You have to get permission to go there now. It's, like, a government area, and it's patrolled by security guards.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
But like they it's you'll get in big trouble now. So I don't want to send anyone there. But if you were to get permission to be on these grounds, you would see that there's depressions in the field. That's the cemetery where these people were buried side by side, like hundreds of them. It's so difficult. It's weird you keep saying that. I know.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
And they're all like side by side in rows, and it's like erosion is happening, so it's starting to show where the graves are. Oh, man. It's very spooky. A woman named Tina Simmons from the Laurel Historical Society, she worked in genealogy. She has done a ton of research naming these people, like finding out who these people were. Oh, good for her. Finding their graves.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
And she had found 16 individuals that... Like there's a monument to these people that was finally erected. But she found 16 people who are not listed on that monument. What? That like weren't listed. So they don't know who they are. They didn't even do the monument right? Yeah, like I have no idea. But she found deaths because she found all these death certificates for these people.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
These deaths in this institution range from three hours old. So somebody three hours old. Oh, wow. To 65 years old. And the three hours old ones, they said those are very nefarious because that means somebody either entered in pregnant, which was rare, or something happened in there that they became pregnant. And it's like, that's scary. That's like, there was so much sexual abuse in here.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
If you are looking it up, sometimes this cemetery, this makeshift cemetery is called the District Training School Cemetery. The first recorded death here, and it was recorded according to the Laurel Historical Society, was 1928. So three years after they opened.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
In 1950, this is just an interesting one that I found in a newspaper, two boys, Arthur Swan, who was 16 years old, and Raymond Thorne, who was 17, escaped from the institution after stealing a rifle from an employee's locker.
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Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
They left for a night and then Arthur returned the next day without Raymond. The director said he wasn't super concerned when they ran off because especially Arthur was a, quote, regular absconder. So he would escape a lot. Okay. When Arthur came back, he started teasing and hinting that he, quote, knew where there was a dead body. Oh.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
They ignored this for a while, but then they called the authorities finally when he started, like, really ramping these things up, and they were able to locate the murdered body of Raymond Thorne, who he had run away with. He had killed him with the rifle, left the rifle on top of him, and just, like, dumped him in the woods. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
That one was upsetting. This one is horrifying because this nurse never really faced charges for this. What did she do? She was 15 years old. She was paralyzed. She drowned in a bathtub. So a nurse, Elsie Stambach, put her in the tub and then left her alone to take care of another patient, and Geraldine drowned. She's paralyzed. You can't leave her in the bath.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
What are you doing putting a paralyzed young girl in a tub and leaving her there? Oh my God. If something happens, she can't move to get herself above the water. That's so sad. What are you doing? This should be pretty common sense. Charges were brought, but they were dropped and she resigned. But like, that kind of shit was pretty regular.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
In 1970, and this is really awful just to tell you, a young eight-year-old girl named Joy Evans was sent here because she required 24-hour care and her parents had to work and couldn't provide it. Her mother, Betty, said when she was first sent there, she almost immediately started seeing issues happening.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
It's always the response. I say, wow, I really want fall. And people are like, it's May 3rd. And I'm like, I know. If it wasn't May 3rd, I wouldn't be missing fall. I would be in fall.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
She would find injuries on Joy like chipped teeth to scratches, lacerations, bruises all over her. Get her out. One horrific thing was that Joy's back, she said, was raw because she would be strapped to a rubber sheet and her back was raw from urine burns. Oh. Because they would just leave her there.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
to lay in it how do you do that to anybody let alone an eight-year-old and she the thing is her parents couldn't get her out of there because sometimes once you would institutionalize someone they like wouldn't give them back to you what yeah and also like they still couldn't do the 24-hour care uh she died there as a as a teenager of aspiration meaning she was fed improperly lying down and choked to death
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
That's horrific. Yeah. Betty, the mother, wrote in an affidavit, Dogwood, the cottage where Joy lived, was a veritable snake pit. I once witnessed a nurse open the cottage door only to find 80 half-clad screaming women come running to the door. The nurse quickly closed the door.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
say nicholas he just said nicholas again that's weird no that's crazy that was like two three weeks ago that was weird did that episode yeah that's really weird so they she just shut the door on like they all came running towards the door to try to get out and she just closed the door and walked away like just like i'm not dealing with that oh my god yeah and a mother later said once committed to forest haven the only way out is to die
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
In the mid-70s, this is when the families filed a class action lawsuit against the institution for how they were treating their children and family members. And the lawsuit said Forest Haven, intended as a facility for treatment, education, and training, subjects residents to physical or sexual abuse, provides virtually no treatment, has no training program, and neglects basic medical care.
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Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
To say the least. The Department of Justice got involved and more court cases came in, but things just got worse for a bit. The lawsuit stated at one point, staff members locked dozens of residents, naked except for adult diapers, in rooms stripped of furniture other than wooden benches. Like, why? You have to be, like, an actual monster to do that.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Like, you literally have to find some kind of something out of that. You do. Like, you really have to be... That's not even being, like... You have to either be entirely detached from humanity, which means you are a monster, or you have to find some kind of enjoyment out of it. Both ends are just the worst kind of person.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
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Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
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Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
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Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
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Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
See Masterclass' latest deal at least 15% off at masterclass.com slash morbid. masterclass.com slash morbid. Now, as it went into the 80s, there was way more deaths occurring very rapidly in succession, and they were really tragic deaths. They would strap patients to beds and just leave them to die at times. Finally, in 1991, the institution shuttered. Can't believe it was open that long.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Yeah, and it was like during these, like after the lawsuit in the 70s, it was like they slowly started moving patients into different group homes because that was their solution was like, we got to shut this place down, but we can't just like move everyone out at once. Because there's over a thousand patients in there. So they were doing it slowly.
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Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
And it's like at the end, there was like 15 residents left in there and they were just being completely... I mean, that would be perfect under normal circumstances because you shouldn't have that many people. Right. But they were being neglected too. Right. Because everything was just like, whatever, let's forget about it.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Now, in the 80s is when the families of those who died funded that like big stone memorial marker that I told you about. Yeah. And it had 391 names of children and adults who died there.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
And this area is called the Garden of Eternal Rest now. Oh, wow. If you were to go there now after getting permission to go there, everything is left behind. I mean, suitcases, toys, clothing, paperwork, medical devices, equipment.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
There are photos of people, of kids in the facility. A ton of shoes, like baby shoes, kid shoes, slippers, high heels, like all kinds of shoes. It's very stressful. Yeah. Again, it is patrolled by guards. Apparently it's all very dense woods around it. You have to do like hiking through it. And then you just like come upon it. Like everyone says it's like all woods, all woods, all woods.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
And then you like come to this point where it just appears like it's like a jump scare. That's scary. Yeah, that is scary. Now, of course, with a history like this, it's going to have haunting.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Yeah, and I feel like that's going to start a whole thing where I'm going to be chased with pitchforks.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
It is. There's crazy... I mean, you go in here, supposedly, a lot of people hear screaming and groaning. Like people say legit people crying and begging for help out of rooms. And when they go... And this place is completely... Experiment. What the fuck? That's literally what was happening. Because of these, they would do medical experiments on these people. Yeah. And they're all.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
And that's why they were screaming. You can hear that shit. People hear gurneys being pushed down the wall, like the squeaking of gurneys.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Ugh. Yep. I don't like it. People often hear the morgue door, because the morgue's in the basement, obviously. They hear the morgue door slam. Oh. And when they like no one else is in there. Just residual hauntings. And one of the things people really talk about is just the intense feeling of dread in that place. People say it's like sadness is something you can touch in there.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Like it is so depressing in this place. Like sadness has permeated every part of this place.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
It looks scary. Now I want to hear from people who have investigated this. I want to talk to them. I want to know what the feeling was here. Now a lot of people report feeling someone with very cold hands grab them or just touch them in the hallways, which also you always think of doctors having cold hands. That's like a thing. And it just makes me think of doctors and cold hands. I don't like it.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
I don't like that. There's a clinical smell, like an antiseptic kind of smell that will sometimes happen. Like a hospital. Yeah, like a very hospital type smell or that like musty hospital smell, you know, like, yeah. EVPs from this place go crazy. I bet. I mean, it's like you look them up. Go ahead and look on YouTube and all that. There's tons of EVPs.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
I won't run. I will not run. No, this is totally fake. We're totally fine. Jokes. We're in a silly, goofy mood. Help me. Shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up. But no, on a lighter note, but no, on a little bit of a scary note, actually. Elena has a problem with a poltergeist. Okay, so here we are. Maybe not a poltergeist. This is a spooky episode.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Um, charm city paranormal is one in particular. They did a really good, I've never, I haven't like watched any of their videos, so I know nothing about them. Uh, but I do know this one video I watched was very well put together and they did like a very deep dive on the history and stuff, which makes me think that they like really care about these places they go to. Yeah, of course.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Um, so they visited this place and when they were there, they caught like crazy EVPs and they were like voices when they'd walk through hallways of things like, um, One was, I wanted you to find me, Michael.
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Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
And one of them was, please take John. Oh. Which makes me think of like somebody bringing their family member in and saying like, please take him. Yeah. Which like, oh, like I just got full chills from that. But Nicholas, I don't know what you think, but that freaked me out. And it's, I highly recommend looking up those kind of like investigations that people have done here.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Look up the Sam and Colby one and look up the Charm City Paranormal one. Those are the ones I took a peek at.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
But yeah, it's a wild. Just knowing that there is a makeshift graveyard, mass grave on site that they have proven like it is 100% there. This is not like rumor. This isn't one of those things that they're like, they think there's bodies. Nope. They know there's bodies there. Yeah. They're all listed out.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
And on the marker, they are listed in the order of when they died, and they're listed in the order of where they are buried.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
They were able to go through, and I guess they had, like, some of them have markers, but they're, like, buried in the ground, and they're just, like, a little marker with, like, a number on it or, like, an initial. Okay.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
It makes me want to cry. It is. It's awful.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
I know. I'm sorry. It was just, it was one of those that I looked at and I was like, I have to tell this story. It's fascinating. Because this is a horrific story and it's one that I'd never heard of. Thank goodness it closed. Fuck that place. Yeah. Oh, it closed. 1991, it was officially closed. It was open for like 70 years. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
That's the thing. It seemed like they really wanted that place to be like a place where people could thrive and get better. It just shows you when you take away funding from things that matter. Yeah. Things get real fucked up. It's true. Which is so sad. Ugh, I hate that. Yeah, that is Forest Haven Asylum. Damn.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
We didn't... We started out with a theme, and then we said... Are you okay? Oh, see, he's trying to make it right. Maybe he asked me if I was okay, because I said... I need to... Damn. That's like a ghost lyric. I like that.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
I don't want those. I don't want those.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
They are. But don't steal. They're a cemetery gate. Exactly. Hollow ground. That's hollow ground.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
I think it's pretty fucking scary. I think that's scary. Plenty of places have trees that are blocking the sun.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Nicholas. Mother. Mother. Okay, we're back. Me and Nicholas are back. He heard me starting to talk about it and he was like, I'm sorry I hurt you. I'm sorry. I'm not told. He's responding. Okay, Nicholas. I'm sorry. I'm going to talk about our fight, but we're fine. We're totally cool now. Okay, wait.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
I'm not going to lie. I want to know what he has to say. I do as well. I desperately want to know what he has to say.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Yeah, because it's just like trampled down.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
I love that tale. I think Greek mythology is cool.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
I mean, I don't blame him because it's like he provides a service that you cannot provide yourself.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
So don't expect him to do it for free.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Yeah, just spooky episodes or maybe when we feel like it.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Oh, that's cool. I love that. I wonder what the significance of that is.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
You guys seemed to like it, though. It was fun. He doesn't interrupt that much. And when he does, it's very pertinent information. It's worth it. We named him Nicholas because he named himself Nicholas. That's how that works. We said, what's your name? And he said, Nicholas. And we said, okay, Nicholas it is. Nicholas and I were bro-ies the last time. I felt a deep connection to him.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
That is so Massachusetts. I can't even stand it.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Stones are our thing in Massachusetts.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Yeah, because we have like a lot of stone in the ground.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Nicholas just called me a failure. He literally has. Why are you being so mean to Ash? Nicholas, why are you being mean to me? Nicholas, don't be mean to Ash. Okay, that won't work.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
So we started off this episode and I was like, Nicholas, what's going on? And he said he was struggling. Yeah. And I was like, oh, no. And I said, tell me your woes, Nicholas. And he responded, you. And I said, whoa, this is our first fight.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
You dodged a motherfucking bullet, my friend. Solid. Solid. See? Nicholas is like, yup, yup.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
I love that he knew that. Yeah. He's just out here spitting knowledge about the cemetery. He's like, just so you know. He said from one spooky bitch to another. Yeah, he said contain them. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
I think that's me and Nicholas's dynamic. I think because he just, he. You're his forbidden love. He heard that I misunderstood here. Although he did just call you mother, so. Yeah, that's weird.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
I'm not trying to go to hell right now. Right now, she said. Right now. She just wanted to clarify.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Thanks, Nicholas. Do you have anything, any last comments that you want to leave everybody with, Nicholas?
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
You speak really mean to me. Mikey's face was like, whoop.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
It's okay. He thinks, yeah, he's like mother. I'm lost.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Nicholas, we're okay. We're okay now. We understand each other, Nicholas. I get it, okay?
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Some people don't understand our snark, okay? But this is how we do. That's right, mother. So Nicholas is going to be around. And Nicholas will chime in when he feels like he has something to say. When he sees fit. And again, we were going to make this like a themed spooky episode, but then we just got crazy with it. And Ash chose a cemetery. I chose an institution, like an asylum.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
And we're just going with that. So there's no real theme except spooky. This is fucking spooky. So Nicholas is the theme. Yeah. He's the common thread.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Very much. He just said that. Oh, my God. Wow.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Oh my goodness, Nicholas. You bring joy. Wow. Okay. I don't even know how to follow that up, but I don't think you can. Episode done. Bye. Thanks for listening. So I found this. So searching for spooky places. I didn't know what I wanted to do. At first I was looking for cemeteries. That's how this did lead me here. Because Ash had found a cemetery she wanted to do.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
And I was like, all right, I will find a cemetery. So the reason I found this is it's an old asylum. I'm going to get into all the nitty gritty. It's really horrible, so buckle in. But there is a cemetery on the site of this place, but it's like a mass grave. Oh. So it's technically a cemetery, but that's what led me to this. And then when I found out the history... Water. You need some?
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
I'm empty on water, actually. Are you asking? Yeah. So when I got further into like the history of this, that's when I was like, I have to include... Are you literally about to take a sip of your water because you told me to? He told me water, okay? He said water.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Yeah, he said hydrate. And I said, okay, Nicholas.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Yeah, as you wish, Nicholas. So I'm going to... And then... As I got into the background of this place, and it's just a horrifying history, I found that Sam and Colby had gone to this place. Our bros. And explored it. So I watched that video because I wanted to see what that was about. And they experienced something crazy there. So I urge you to go look up there. their video about it.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
But yeah, it's a very scary place. It was a very scary history. And again, this is going to be a little upsetting at times. This is not, it's like an institution. So that's not great. Mine will palate cleanse a bit. Yeah. So this is Forest Haven Asylum. It was opened in 1925. It was opened under a much more offensive but very of-the-time name.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
So part of that was the district training school for... Something that I will not say now. It was named Forest Haven Asylum in 1963. That's better. That's when they changed it up.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Yeah, and somehow it got shittier after that. So I don't know how that happened. Oh, it did? It was intended initially to treat children and young adults. Oh, damn. It was a really bad hotel. They were treating children and young adults in Laurel, Maryland, and it was serving the people of the District Columbia as well. It had a big range.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
It was going to be taking in people who were deemed mentally ill at the time, like severely mentally ill, but later it went way far out of those – Parameters. Far enough to bring in kids and young adults that were just deemed not quote unquote normal by society or were just people that nobody wanted to deal with anymore. That's horrible.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
This is morbid, and it is humid and swampy outside like it's fucking Florida or some shit. We haven't even been outside today, though. Yeah, but I was told by reputable sources. Yeah, but I know. Meaning my husband texted me and said, it's like Florida outside.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
There was also times when people were taken from their families against their family's will and put into this place. How did that happen? It was really bad. I mean, there was a time, and we'll get to it, that an orphanage closed nearby and 20 orphans were just written down in documentation as being mentally ill to be put into this place because they didn't have anywhere else to put them. Wow.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Holy shit. So completely, you know, like just like average kids happen to be orphans, don't have any illnesses that we could see. Right. We're just put in this place to be forgotten about. Yeah. So this is huge. This place is gigantic. It has 30 structures. It covers 250 acres. It's kind of in the middle of nowhere in a forest.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Like it's definitely pushed off, which a lot of these places usually were. On the entryway into the main building, and it's still there, there's a bronze plaque that says, yet while I live, let me not live in vain, which is chilling because all of them did. Yeah. Like they did not follow that.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
At the height of its operation, it had over a thousand patients, which they were referring to as inmates at the time. Way overcrowded. Way overcrowded. When it initially opened in the 20s, and this is what's wild, it was initially created as like a progressive farm colony style thing. Like they had opened it as an institution, but what they wanted to do was make it more like a wellness thing.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
They wanted to actually help these kids and these young adults like grow and thrive and like
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Yeah, like, truly make it, like, a wellness thing. In the beginning, they were learning life skills, farm skills. They were, like, doing work and training for certain things and having, like, a real feeling of being part of a community. They were providing for the community as well with the farming stuff. So, like, they were given purpose. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
Everything there was supposed to be like super chill. There was a lot there too in the beginning. There was basketball courts, a baseball field. They would publish the scores of the baseball games in the papers sometimes at first. Oh, that's cool. So initially this was like great. Like a community. And it was being like held up as like this great place, like great stories were coming out.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
I mean, they had theaters there. They had a gym. They had all kinds of things to keep the patients busy and active and their minds working. How did it all go to shit? Everything was calm and nurturing. well in the 1960s the funding started to be pulled back and once the funding got pulled back the asylum was suffering
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
They started to take in people way outside of the parameters. Mostly, like I said, without their family's consent. Some of them were basically kidnapped. People with epilepsy were put here. People with just hearing problems. What? People with tuberculosis. Oh, my God. The kids from the orphanages without any known disabilities.
Morbid
Episode 673: Spooky Asylums and Cemeteries with Nicholas
I don't. Moving on. Wow. You guys know I don't love summer, but I've decided to get into it this year. Because? Because it's summerween and slasher summer. I'm trying to get in that vibe. It's going to be fun. And I'm excited for that. So I'm trying to like get in a different state of mind for summer because this is usually the time of the year when I say, fuck it.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Hey weirdos, Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
The attack left Nisha with head injuries so severe that the brain tissue was exposed from her skull. Oh my God. She was rushed to the hospital by ambulance, but unfortunately she died on the way to the hospital. Now, in his statement to the press, Detective Chief Superintendent Clive Ritchie told reporters, this was a cowardly and horrific attack. I've seldom seen injuries this bad.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
The family is well-known and well-liked in the area, and everyone is terribly shocked. And again, this was unprovoked. It was just an unprovoked attack, and at the time, they didn't know who the fuck did it. They were just like, what? And this is a family who's been good to him, who employed him. Yeah, yeah.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
So the press and the public thought this was just this motiveless crime that they were like, what the fuck is going on? But investigators were like, I think I know who did this.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Yeah. About an hour after the attack in the store, Peter Bryan was seen dangling by his hands from a third-story balcony of an apartment building in the Battersea neighborhood area of London. What? He fell nearly 30 feet and severely broke both lower legs and ankles. Ooh, ouch.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And later he explained that he had intended to kill himself by throwing himself off the building headfirst, but he had second thoughts on the way and clung to the building until he couldn't hold any longer and fell. When he got to the emergency department of St. Thomas Hospital, he was repeating a phone number over and over but wouldn't say what the number was for.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And when the admitting nurse gave the number to police, they found out that it was the number for Nisha's parents. And he was just saying it over and over. What the fuck? Like, why? Peter's injuries required him to have several surgeries. He had to get bilateral pins put into both of his legs, and he was placed in traction. Oof.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Although a police report filed several days claimed that he tested positive for opiates, the drug screening that was done at the hospital only showed weak traces of THC in his system. Consistent with someone who'd smoked marijuana a few days earlier.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
So the following day, March 20th, he was arrested for the murder of Nisha Sheth. To think that he, like, it doesn't sound like he was on anything. No. Like, what? No. And the news of the arrest made headlines, obviously, in all the London papers, and especially the tabloids, which at the time were, oof.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And they stoked the outrage over this, quote, drugged up suspect having committed an unprovoked attack. Meanwhile, he literally wasn't. What's worse is he wasn't. I thought you were going to say he was like blitzed out of his mind. And reporters stated the attack had been motivated by Peter having been fired by the chefs shortly before the murder occurred. But that wasn't accurate. No.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Peter had been working more or less informally for the chefs, like I said, very informally. Yeah. And didn't appear to have kept any regular schedule. So it wasn't like he was fired. He didn't.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
really have a schedule he would just kind of work when he worked so this really was unprovoked and he had been actively engaging with various members of the family up to the week before the attack though it looked like the chefs were you know the chefs were saying it looked like he was struggling with symptoms of mental illness in the weeks before the murder or they were concerned about his behavior so maybe they were keeping distance yeah
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
A week after the murder, Rita Sheff gave a statement to police and she described Peter's behavior in the weeks leading up to the attack as very concerning. According to Rita, she said, Peter's mood would swing from calm to violent and he changed his appearance regularly. Sometimes he would grow a beard, then shave it off, and then he shaved the hair from his head.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
His clothing was sometimes dirty and he often smelt as though he was not washing himself. One day he smelt strongly of disinfectant as though he was washing his face with it. He would wander around muttering to himself, and when he spoke, it was often as though he was talking in a language she could not understand, and he would repeat a word over and over and over again.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
One afternoon, he came into the shop saying he felt like killing someone. Jesus. And to me, I'm wondering if that appearance change up was to get rid of hair evidence. Yeah. He shaved his head and shaved his beard off. Yeah. Now, in addition to Peter's bizarre and sometimes very unsettling behavior, he was also getting very aggressive to the chefs and others in the neighborhood.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
In one incident, Peter bragged about, quote, how easy it was to take money from Pakistanis in East London.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Yeah. Implying that he had been stealing from them, like he was telling people and bragging about it. Yeah. Yeah. Which to me says like a lot of like knowledge and awareness of what he's doing. Yeah. You know what I mean?
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Yeah. But then there's a lot of awareness of his bad acts. Yeah, exactly. And in another incident a few days later, he had been hanging around the shop and for no discernible reason, he started kicking Rita in the shins. The mother.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And then he grabbed a belt from the rack and hit her several times in the leg with the buckle. And did they report this to anybody? Well, Rita reached for the phone to dial the police, but Peter grabbed the phone out of her hand and hung up and then ran out of the store. And about an hour later, he came back and asked whether she had called the police. And she said no.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And he started apologizing and like freaking out. Wow, so she was like genuinely very good to him even when he was assaulting her. He physically assaulted her and she was like, I don't know what he's going through. Damn. In the week before Nisha's murder, Peter's behavior became even more erratic and at times even more frightening. He would steal items off the shelf regularly.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And that was her breakfast. Because, you know. It was giving frat boy. It's giving 2024. Yes. And 2025 and 2026 and 2027 and 2028 as well. Little tiny burnt sausages just on a plate running the country, you know?
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And when he was confronted, he would get super aggressive with the person. Then at other times, he was like strangely over-the-top kind. Like one time... In the week before the murder. Now, this is a week before he's going to murder her ruthlessly.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
He gave Nisha an ornate box full of small flowers. That's terrifying. And this struck Rita as very strange because she's like, I had never seen him be nice or gentle before. He's always an asshole. Right. And after giving Nisha the gift, Peter didn't return to the shop for a week. And the next time he saw her, he attacked and killed her.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
So he gave her this gift and then the next time he saw her was to kill her. That's very scary. Now, Peter remained hospitalized for a month following his surgeries. And after that, he was discharged to Brixton Prison. There's going to be a lot of things that make you very angry in this too because some of this stuff is avoidable.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Within a week of arriving at Brixton, he had attacked two fellow inmates on separate occasions. One was occurring while he was still in a wheelchair. Jesus. He was in a wheelchair and attacked another inmate. How? I have no idea. But the unprovoked attacks led to Peter being evaluated by the psychiatric team from Hackney Hospital.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
They found him to be paranoid and mistrustful of others and noted their concern that there was a strong likelihood that he would or could be violent towards others. I mean, he is.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
During his interview with the team from Hackney, Peter told the psychiatrist that he had known the chefs for many years, having started working for them when he was a teenager, and that he had a, quote, love feeling for Nisha. But anytime he got close to her, he said Rita would make him leave the store. And according to Peter, Nisha shared his feelings, like also felt love feelings for him.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Doubt it. And would touch him sexually. But you also said that you didn't have a sexual relationship. He was very graphic about it. But I will not be reiterating his deranged quote. Because it's fake. But he said that when he would touch her in response, she would, quote, become frigid and timid and run away. He's a liar. Yeah, none of that makes any sense. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
In Peter's version of the events on that day of the murder, remember Peter's version of events, he said he had gone to the shop and she began kissing him and said, make, and this is awful, and said, make me rape me in an intimidating tone.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Peter claimed he had only happened to have a hammer with him that day.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And they said, why did you have a hammer? And he said, I just had one. As one does. You don't need to have a reason. I walked into a store with a hammer. Can't just have a hammer on me. And he said he hadn't intended on assaulting Nisha with it. He just had it. But he believed that she wanted to kill him. Yep.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And he said that he believes that because and then he said that he also believed that what she was saying to him was that he wanted her to kill her or him to kill her. Excuse me. So he's saying she asked for me to kill her. He's saying she wanted me to kill her. No. And it was going to be like a thing. No. Like we're just going to kill each other. Nope.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Now we can talk about cannibalism. I appreciate that. You're welcome. They were good. They're the little Vermont maple ones. I like the maple ones. I do the banquet ones, the banquet little patties.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And he said, I know that she wanted this, in fact, because she didn't cry out or attempt to fight back when I started hitting her in the face with a hammer on the floor. She might have been unable to because you hit her so hard that her brain tissue came out of her face. It's also worth noting that Bobby Sheff, her brother, strongly refuted this entire fucking statement.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And he told the police his sister had been, quote, screaming in a terrified manner.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
So he was like, that guy can get fucked. Yeah. And that, no, he did not walk in and she did not start kissing him. She was on the phone. Like Bobby was the one that was like, she was on the phone. Right. Like he didn't even look at her. Although the evaluating doctors found Peter to be quiet and calm during this period, they also noted his very fragmented and very delulu thinking.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Sounds very delulu. And according to the report, Peter's train of thought would like shift really frequently from one subject to another. And there was no obvious connections between them. Just like boom, boom, boom.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And during one interview, for example, he was giving a history of his mental health treatment, and then he changed the topic mid-sentence to tell the psychiatrist about his interests and practices of voodoo. Okay. And at the time, he also told the doctor that, quote, dead souls would sometimes listen into his conversations and that they hurt him when he was alone.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
He sounds like I'm not going to armchair diagnose, but I guess I am. He sounds schizophrenic. They did bring that up at one point. He was very hard to diagnose. Yeah. They had trouble diagnosing him. Well, he sounds like he's got bits and pieces of like everything. You know what I mean? He seems that way for sure.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
From their interviews, the evaluating team found him to be someone that was suffering from profound delusional and psychotic thinking that was frequently paranoid in nature. And it appears that he frequently misinterpreted social cues and signals from others as well. Or he just like experienced things in a way that was very inconsistent with reality. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And that just wasn't the reality at all. But he believed it to be. But he kind of...
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
I like to put them on an egg sandwich. And I don't like to burn them. I just burn them to a crisp and eat them because I don't care. You're just rough around the edges. I'm out of here living.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
delusionally put that together in his mind although his explanation for why he'd gone to the shop that day of the murder changed depending on when and whom he was telling the story to it appears his intention what he's claiming to be his attention his intention for going in that day was to end his relationship with nisha that day okay
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Regardless of, you know, what he believed that relationship was, it was not real.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
The relationship, he said, it had to end or move on. Okay. And he told the psychiatrist that his motive was that he said, I just couldn't, I couldn't stand going on with this relationship anymore because it was too hard. And then he said, my hand went up and that was it. None of this makes any sense.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And after months of evaluations, the psychiatric team were at a complete fucking loss for how to diagnose him or how to treat him. Yeah. One psychiatrist wrote, Yeah. Despite not being able to arrive at a diagnosis, he was transferred to Rampton Hospital, which is a high-security psychiatric facility in Nottinghamshire.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
That's in England, whose notable inmates have included Charles Bronson, who's a notorious criminal, a spree killer named Mark Roantree, and a serial killer, Beverly Ullit. Jeez. So they have some high-profile scary people in there. I guess so. Ultimately, Peter would spend almost 10 years at Rampton.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
During this time, he was a frequent fucking problem for the staff. That's so surprising. I'm shocked. Yeah, exactly. They said it was very clear that he had this, like, grandiose thought process that he would go through, and he had very psychotic thinking.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
In fact, a nurse wrote, violence is a recurring theme in Peter's conversation with his peers, and he seems to be preoccupied with glamorized violence. Hmm. Throughout this time, his memory of Nisha's murder remained distorted. He would change it all the time. And his motive for the attack would also change at various points. So he was just making it up. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
I feel like people at home are just picturing you like foaming at the mouth. Yeah. That was what happened. Yeah. Keep picturing it. Let's talk about Peter Bryan. This is a wild story. I don't know if I know this. It's very upsetting right off the bat. Please know that. Okay. I mean, it does involve cannibalism. So there that is.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And it was always depending who he was talking to or how he was feeling that day. Mm-hmm.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
While at Rampton, he would speak openly about his drug and alcohol abuse prior to being arrested and was very, again, grandiose and theatrical when describing acts of violence in his past. Staff interpreted it as an attempt to impress the other patients. That said, it does appear that he derived some enjoyment from talking about his past acts of violence. That makes sense.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
He would often smile as he spoke of the attack on Nisha. That's gross. Like it made him happy. On the other hand, when he spoke of the future, he would become depressed. He understood that he was going to be in the hospital for the foreseeable future, and he found that distressing. In fact, during one court appearance in 1994, he expressed absolutely no remorse for the murder. None.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
But he did regard the event as a matter of great regret, as the outcome was that he was now crippled and facing a bleak future.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
So he literally said, I don't give a shit that I did that. The only reason I'm upset about it is now I have to deal with pins in my legs because I jumped off a building and because now I don't know what's going to happen in my future because of it. This is so bleak. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
In March 1994, he pled not guilty to the charge of murder, but he pleaded guilty to one charge of manslaughter and guilty to a charge of assault for the attack on Bobby. In the years after that, he continued exhibiting bizarre behavior and psychotic thinking, but the psychiatrists at Rampton could not find a diagnosis either. Right. They were just as at a loss as the other psychiatric team.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Because he ticks off a lot of boxes, like, everywhere. And the problem... Like, all across the board. So as a result of them not being able to figure out a diagnosis, they found it very difficult to assess his degree of dangerousness.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And it also involves a lot of discussion about like mental health, mental illness, like the system around it at the time and especially in the area. Yeah. So let's talk about Peter Bryan when he was younger. So Peter Bryan was born in London, England on October 4th, 1969. Scorpio. A Scorpio. He was the youngest of seven children. Damn.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Well, as this is all going on, social workers continue to interview Brian's friends and family, looking into his background, trying to find anything that might help explain his mental state.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
According to his sister, they had been raised in a home where violence was a regular occurrence. That makes sense. Mostly at the hands of their father.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Now, despite this, those who knew him best said that they insisted that Peter had been mostly pleasant and a hardworking child, which completely... Who the fuck said that?
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Now, the first sign of mental illness appears to have been noticed by a family friend in late 1991 or early 1992.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Yeah. Now, according to the young woman, Peter began verbally and physically aggressive to the point where she felt unsafe around him. And at the same time, he also started becoming increasingly paranoid and isolated. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And a short time later, Peter's father confirmed the narrative given by the family friend, saying that late 1992 was the point where Peter's behavior and thinking became obviously troubling to those around him. It also makes sense that that would be the time period where people would notice it, like...
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
very blatantly because that usually manifests at a certain period of time yeah in your life like a lot of times it will and that was in his early 20s yeah so it's like late teens early 20s usually like when mental illness presents itself is what yeah i feel like that's when it becomes more easily identifiable as that yeah
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Although he proved to be a challenge for the staff at the hospital, he did settle into life at Rampton pretty quickly. And within a year, he was telling his doctors that he preferred it to life, quote, on the outside. Okay, cool. Stay. Yeah. Bye. Despite his inconsistent commitment to treatment, in 1995, he began to recognize his capacity for violence at the very least.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
He would tell hospital staff that he doesn't think that he should have a job where there are dangerous tools around because he said, quote, I could hit someone.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Exactly. Which is, that's good. He's telling you he can't be around tools because he'll hit someone. So don't let him out into a world full of tools. I feel like they do. Now, unfortunately, his progress was short-lived, if that was progress. By the summer of 1995, his paranoia had increased, and he continued exhibiting criminal and very deviant behavior. I wonder if he was medicated at all.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
I'm sure he was. I wonder even how they would, though. You know, because they don't know how to treat it. But he would expose himself to female doctors.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And he burned a member of the cleaning staff with a cigarette. Jeez.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Yeah, it really is. That's fucked up. Because it's like this weird control thing. Yeah. You're taking the choice away from someone else. Yeah. Yeah. In early 2001, he submitted a petition to the Mental Health Review Tribunal requesting a discharge from Rampton. Honey, no. Or at least a move to a medium security facility.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And in their assessment of the evidence presented, the tribunal concluded that Peter had made considerable progress. Where? Since entering the hospital and, quote, as a consequence of the medication, the illness was no longer of a nature or degree warranting liability to detention. Guys, is the progress in the room with us?
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Now, you should know, this is a case that frequently gets cited on like, this is like the mental health... Failure. ...system was a complete and utter fucking failure here. Fail, fail, fail. I mean, it was like unbelievable. Wow. On July 12, 2001, he was transferred to the John Howard Center, a transitional program for patients reentering the community. Bitch, what?
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
To parents who had moved to the UK from Barbados in the late 1950s. Many years later, after his arrest, Bryan recalled his early life as, you know, one that was not very smooth. It was a lot of disruption, a lot of difficulty. I mean, seven kids and like moving to like a completely new place.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Where he was going to spend six months acquiring the skills necessary to live independently. During this time, it appears he adapted well to a more independent life. However, his attitudes about women and behavior with female members of staff was a big source of concern for his treatment team. They were like, it didn't get better. Yeah, so maybe don't put him on the streets.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
So the nursing staff was like, no, like he's going to hurt someone like you can't do this. Despite them, he was discharged from the Howard Center in early 2002 and moved to Riverside, a halfway house for those reentering the community, but not requiring institutional care.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
You don't immediately say yes. Exactly. Like, we keep working. Exactly. Now, Peter's time at Riverside was mostly unremarkable. As long as he remained medicated, his symptoms were minimal and he was manageable. But the medication did little to improve his personality or character. He still was who he was. And staff at the residential facilities continued to struggle with his...
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Not even trying to hide his misogyny. Yeah. Like he hated women. Oh, great. And his immaturity and just his aggressiveness. Right. In January 2004, he had hoped to be discharged from intensive treatment and move out of Riverside. But that month, he was accused of sexually assaulting a teenage girl, resulting in his being transferred to a low security ward at New Ham General Hospital.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
So he was out of a facility that was like even really like highly monitored. Yeah, okay. And as soon as they let him out of that, things were going okay. And then he immediately sexually assaulted a teenage girl. So they put him in a low security facility where now he was... In a facility. Like, guys, now he's moving on. He's like a pedophile.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Well, like, guys, he just showed you what he'll do when he leaves. So maybe keep him in the high security. When people show you who they are, believe them, baby. Like, he just showed you. My God. Now, this ward provided 24-7 surveillance and management of care.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
But the low security part was that it was relaxed and the residents were allowed to come and go as long as they returned by curfew.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Yeah. That doesn't even sound like a fucking program. Well, and it really went bad. He should have been in a high security. Absolutely. On the afternoon of February 17th, Peter approached one of the nurses on the ward and said, can I go out? And she said, sure, as long as you're back on time. Well, and they were probably stoked to get him out of there, too. Well, and again, he had every right.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Yeah, they lived and knew him. But starting when Peter was four or five years old, both of his parents were working full-time jobs. And the three youngest children, which included Peter, were often left in the care of just like a rotating group of like babysitters, you know, anyone they could get to just watch these kids. Yeah, childcare is fucking hard.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
As long as he's back on time, the nurses had to say, sure, as long as they weren't acting like they were aggressive.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Yeah. When that same nurse was interviewed later, she described Peter as, quote, quiet and unassuming with no signs of being unwell. He was totally normal. That's even scarier. Yeah. That he walked up to her perfectly calm and said, can I leave? And she was like, sure. Well, and that shows that, like, he knows he has to be calm to get what he wants.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
At the time, Peter did not tell the hospital staff where he was going, but around 4.30 p.m., CCTV cameras in a London hardware store recording Peter show him leaving the store after purchasing a claw hammer, a box cutter, and a screwdriver. From there, he got on a bus and went to the apartment of an acquaintance of his, Brian Cherry.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Now, it's unclear how Peter and Cherry had come to know each other, but it seems that they had a friend in common. That might have been it. This girl was a girl that Peter had met a year or two earlier. I think they all kind of were involved in the same drugs kind of thing. Oh, okay.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And this girl, this friend, this mutual acquaintance, would frequently use Brian Cherry's apartment as a place where she and her friends could spend the day, like, you know, drinking, hanging out, doing whatever. Using, yeah. Yeah. According to the NHS reports compiled after the murders, the young woman had a history of manipulating Brian Cherry into giving her money, among other things. Okay.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
So I think that was the kind of relationship that was happening here, just to give a little context. Yeah. Now, Peter arrived at Cherry's apartment around 5 p.m., and he was met by Brian Cherry at the door. He let him inside. About an hour and a half later, Peter and Brian's mutual friend that I just spoke about arrived at the apartment to deliver Cherry some cigarettes.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
When she rang the doorbell, no one answered. So she didn't get a response, but she could hear some moving around in the apartment. And she knew the door was damaged and actually didn't lock properly, so she just pushed it open and went into the apartment. And she said the first thing she noticed when she entered the apartment was a strong smell of disinfectant. Oh, no.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And she said that was not something she would smell in Brian Cherry's apartment, so she was a little confused by that. Uh-huh. Oh, no. Oh, no. And then tried to get her to leave the apartment. Okay. So just as he said that, the girl looked into the other room behind Peter and saw Brian Cherry lying on the floor.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
From what she could tell, Cherry was naked, lying on his back, and his right arm had been severed from his body and was lying a few inches away from him. Oh my God. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
yeah um terrified she did her best to which like good on her she did her best to act very casual because she didn't want to upset him and she told peter you know what um i'm gonna go and i'll see you later and she just left that's wild that he let her leave like thank goodness that he let her leave but whoa and once outside she ran to her friend's car and they returned to her mother's house and called the police to report what they had seen
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
During this time, the children were often left at home alone for like long periods of time. That can be tough.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
When the call went out over the radio, two police constables were actually stationed in their car nearby, and they went to investigate. When they arrived at the apartment, they knocked loudly on the door several times, but no one answered, so they forced their way inside. They also could immediately smell overwhelming disinfectant.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Quickly, on that, I wonder, because Rita had said that he smelled like disinfectant. He would wash his face with disinfectant.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Now in 1974, Peter started attending primary school. He doesn't have great memories of this time of his life. According to Peter, quote, he had a few friends and was unhappy during this time, primarily on account of his sense of shame and embarrassment and needing extra reading lessons. That can be tough when you're having to be pulled away to do something extra. I understand that.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Well, okay. So they'd only taken a few steps inside the apartment when they were confronted by Peter, who was still shirtless and now was covered in blood.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Assuming Peter to be the victim of the assault at first, because he was covered in blood, they asked if he was all right, and he said he was. And it was only after Peter explained that he didn't live there that one of the officers started searching around the department and found Brian Cherry's body in the living room.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
By then, Peter had removed Cherry's right leg, and it appears as though he had begun to remove the other leg and was interrupted by the police.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
The constable also noted that Cherry's head and face were completely covered in blood and very damaged, presumably by the claw hammer, which was on the floor next to his body. Oh my God. Completely stunned. This is brutal. Yeah. The officers asked Peter whether he was the one who dismembered the body, and he replied that he had.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And when they asked if Brian Cherry had been alive when Peter arrived, he said, yes, he opened the door to me when I knocked.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Yep. Peter also confirmed that he had killed Cherry, but didn't seem to know why he had done it. And after being placed in handcuffs, he watched as the other officer began walking towards the kitchen. And just as she reached the door, the officer, he called out to her with a big smirk on his face and said, I ate his brain with butter. It was very nice. Oh, he's like with a big smile on his face.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Yeah. Can you imagine being the police officer as you're walking into the kitchen? No. He's like, by the way, this is what you're going to find. And did they actually find his brain outside of his... In the kitchen, the officer discovered a horrifying scene. A plastic plate sat beside the stove with what appeared to be flesh with human hair coming from it. And on the stove was a frying pan...
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
With a white substance with a yellow tinge to it. There was an open tub of butter near the cooker. And lab tests confirmed that the contents of the plate and pan were brain matter. And a DNA workup confirmed the remains were those of Brian Cherry. Oh, my God. So he literally fried up pieces of his brain with butter. In his own kitchen. Holy shit. Yeah. Oh, that made me a little nauseous.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Even Blanche was just like, excuse me? Now, despite having committed a truly shocking act of violence, the officers noted that Peter was calm as a fucking cucumber. Remarkably calm. He answered all their questions honestly and to the best of his ability, though he seemed confused about some aspects of the incident. He said, Oh, fuck. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
A few days later, when the autopsy was conducted, the technician confirmed that Sherry's limbs had been, quote, Oh, yeah. So as they sat waiting for the police van to arrive and transport Peter to the hospital, the constables tried again to understand why the fuck he did this.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And this time all he said was, I wanted his soul. Oh. He's so scary. Like, that is so scary. He's just devoid of all humanity.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Like... Now, obviously the news of Brian Cherry's murder was picked up by most news outlets in and around London, none of them being able to resist talking about the cannibalism aspect of it. Police and a forensic team worked for more than a full day processing the scene, and reporters were, like, all assembled outside.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
At one point, one particularly shocked police officer fled the apartment and told reporters, it's horrible, it's terrible in there. I mean, yeah. Now, after being cleared by the medical examiner to ensure that he hadn't suffered any physical injuries, Peter was taken to the John Howard Center.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
He was evaluated there by multiple psychiatrists trying to figure out what the fuck is going on and whether he was fit to even be interviewed by police in his mental state. And he was cleared to be interviewed. he was transferred to the custody of the justice system and charged with Cherry's murder. But in the weeks that followed, his mental health gradually declined.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And by mid-March, it was apparent to the staff at the jail that he was actually getting more violent and more unwell in that environment, and they were like, we should get him out of here. So after a brief psychiatric evaluation again, the doctors at Pentonville Prison agreed, and on April 15, 2004, he was transferred to Broadmoor Hospital. Oh, we've heard of Broadmoor before. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Just 10 days after arriving at Broadmoor, Peter got into an altercation with an inmate named Richard Loudwell. He had been awaiting his own trial for a charge of murder as well. It's unclear exactly what happened here, but at some point the argument escalated and Brian severely beat Loudwell, who died from his injuries later.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
When he was questioned about the attack, Peter told investigators his only regret was that he, quote, was discovered before he had tasted his flesh.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
So obviously he enjoyed that. But I think the shock factor fed him too. Now the murder of Brian Cherry horrified the public. Not only because of the whole cannibalism aspect, but also because of Brian's criminal history and long history of mental instability. Why the fuck was he out and about? Right. In a statement to the press, prosecuting attorney Aftab Jafferji said, Yeah, like,
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
It's an automatic like why am I different from them. Yes. It like just makes them question it immediately. But again, there's no real – I don't have another solution. So it's like that if it works, it works.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
What the fuck are you guys doing? They fucked up. Absolutely they did. And in fact, the case highlighted the serious deficiencies in the nation's dysfunctional mental health system. And a lot of people were pissed off that a clearly unstable man was allowed to just be transitioned back into the community.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
In the NHS evaluation that was conducted years later, several of the doctors and nurses on Peter's team refuted the press and public's claims that they had let an obviously dangerous person out into the street with no plan, which I'm like, huh? How do you even refute that? Yeah. One of Brian's psychiatrists said, when he is relapsing, he can appear relatively free of symptoms much of the time.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
In my view, this is a measure of how, when psychotic, he can appear relatively normal while remaining capable of extreme and unpredictable violence. And it's like, yeah, but why didn't you kind of like grab onto that? Right. So you know that. That's good. You've seen that. But it's too late. Don't allow him to go out and about town. Maybe take some more time to figure out what that pattern is.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Now, in fact, it was later noted that his ability to project a sense of stability and appear, you know, quote unquote normal. Sure. Is among the things that make him so dangerous. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Now, fortunately for the victim's friends and family, Peter did plead guilty to two charges of manslaughter for the murders of Brian Cherry and Richard Loudwell, which had been reduced from the original charges of murder because of his obvious diminished capacity. Sure. This spared everyone the pain of a very sensational trial. Yeah. I mean, it would have.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
With the cannibalism part, it would have gotten out of control. Poor Brian's family did not need to deal with that. And it was just moved right into the penalty phase. On March 25th, 2005, a sentencing hearing was held at the Old Bailey in London. We've heard that before.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Socially, it sucks that like we haven't evolved past the point where people are like, you're different. Yeah, like you feel shame. Yeah, like we need to get better. But his feelings of shame led Peter to seek out and bully those that he kind of perceived to be physically weaker than himself because he was feeling weaker in certain areas. So he had to kind of... Make up for that. Yeah, exactly.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
After the hearing, Aftab Jafferji emphasized that this was not only a case of failure on the part of the mental health system, but also a situation in which the offender was thoroughly unpredictable and dangerous. Mm-hmm. He said, Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Yeah. One of them being a child. That he knew since he was a teenager. Right. And I like that he said all of that. Like he said he has a mental condition. Yes. He is mentally ill. Yes. There is an inability among experts around him to even diagnose him or to tell when he is at his most dangerous because he's that good at masking it. That's terrifying. And then there's the third aspect.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
He's a cannibal. Right. And he seems to like it. Yeah. And he has now had a taste. Uh-huh. It's like when like a dog gets a taste of human flesh. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like it's not a good thing for an animal to get a taste. No. Of that. No.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And I'm glad that he put all the, like, those are all parts of why he needs to be away for life. He can't come out. Good. He said, Yep. Yep. I would say so. That's actually wrong. Fundamentally wrong. Right.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Well, that's what I don't get. I'm like, I get that you're saying, I get it. You couldn't diagnose him. He seems undiagnosable. I get that. I'm not disputing that at all. I'm not a mental health professional.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
But that's the thing. It's like if you were having trouble figuring out any of his patterns or any kind of thing, that's a sign that you have not learned enough to release him. It's better to keep him in there and figure it out than to release him and have all this happen. Absolutely it is.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
So what this inquiry, the report said was, he did not display the usual and expected signs of schizophrenia and appeared to behave normally even when seriously mentally unwell. Other than a couple of minor incidents during his early years at Rampton Hospital, Peter Bryan had not displayed any signs of aggressive or violent behavior since he killed Nisha's chef. That's not true.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Fundamentally untrue. Right. That's them trying to save their ass. Yeah, exactly. On the matter of the Loudwell murder, the panel was much more critical. The evidence suggested that Peter had planned to kill Loudwell. Yeah, he went to the store first. Yeah, it actually said it was planned for some time before the attack, and he had been waiting for a suitable opportunity to do it.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Overcompensate. So he would force them, apparently, to give him, like, treats and, like, candy. He's a bridge troll. Yeah, and he would also make them tie his shoelaces. What the fuck? So it was very weirdly, like, authoritative of him. Yeah. And, like, strange. Tie my shoe. Yeah, this is when he's, like, you know, seven, eight years old. Like, he's just forcing kids to tie his shoes.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Yeah. Yeah. Let's hope. Yeah. But no one else was held accountable for fucking that up. Yeah, they should have been. A hundred percent, they should have been. I was like, come on. Like, that was a clear... Fuck up. Defect in the system. Absolutely. That was going on. But it's a horrifying case.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
I feel like he's a whole... He could be a whole new entry into the DSM. Yeah, honestly. Like, he's... There might not be an illness that we have identified quite yet. Or he could be a combination of multiple illnesses. Yeah, which like creates a new one. Right, right.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Oh, honey, the day my kid comes home and is like, some bully made me tie their shoe. Oh. Shoo right up your butt, honey. Baby, you better believe. Shoo in your face. That would be a problem. Now, by the time he was 10 or 11 years old, the bullying that he was committing had escalated to physical aggression towards his classmates.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
So before it was like, just give me your treats, give me your sweets, tie my shoelaces. But then it started turning into like, I'm actually hurting people. Yeah. Give me your treats, give me your sweets, tie my shoelaces.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Stoop kid. Stoop kid's gotta leave the stoop. But now that's all like funny to watch from, you know, the total outside perspective. But then it started escalating and actually hurting his classmates. I hate that. And it got even worse. And this is where it starts to get dark. Like we can laugh about like. Give me your treats. Give me your sweets. I will always laugh at that. It gets dark. Okay.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Because then he started harassing female classmates. Oh, why I oughta. And he would try to literally like attack them. Ew. So he's a fucking predator. And he was very like weirdly aggressively sexual to them very early on. Ew. What's going on at home, Peter? Now, as he entered his teen years, because he was doing that before he was entering his teen years, 10 or 11.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
He was getting into trouble at school on a regular basis. And because of this, he would get a lot of, because at the time period in the place they were, he would get canings. Oh, I didn't think that's what you were going to say. From the head teacher. Yeah. They used to like cane kids.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Yeah, like hit kids with. What the fuck? Yeah. I knew about like the ruler and shit, but damn. All fucked up. And he would get other forms of punishment, but this didn't really do a lot to, you know, stop him from lashing out at others because violence tends to reinforce violence. Crazy how that works. It's a weird connection that we've seen for millennia. Wild.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
In fact, by the time he was 15 years old and had transferred to a new school in London, he was routinely getting into fights with other boys. He kept getting into trouble. He would get reprimanded all the time for, and this is horrifying, feeling up girls. Oh, my God. And on occasion, he would be suspended. And he even got suspended once for slapping a teacher. What the fuck? Yeah, he was...
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
He needs to go to juvie. He needs the Beyond Scared Straight program. He does. Now, in interviews with mental health workers after he was arrested later in life, Peter also indicated that his early adolescence was when he started really going into his criminal career, we should say. It was like petty theft. He also committed muggings, which is like pretty aggressive. That's scary.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And according to him, these activities gave him something to do. You could do a whole slew of other things.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
But he also agreed that he liked the feeling of power and excitement that he got from menacing others. Oh, that's so dark. Which is like, you need to go away. You need help. Now, around this time, he also started experimenting with drugs, which is not great when this is all happening. Initially, he was just smoking pot, but his drug use would increase and expand as he grew older.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
It's a gateway drug. Into like crack drugs. other like cocaine other stuff now later he was diagnosed as dyslexic and he described himself as quote very slow and unable to keep up with his peers Well, dyslexia, like that's a real challenge. Yeah, that's a real learning disability. And it caused a lot of anxiety around schooling and it resulted in him like not ever wanting to go to school.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
So yeah, he had a big period of truancy. By the time he was 15 or 16, he had become so disengaged from school altogether that he just ended up dropping out. Damn. That's really sad. Yeah, because he just felt like he couldn't keep up. It's probably good for everybody else because he's like committing felonies at school. Because he's a fucking menace at that school. Like he's Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
If I was anybody else at that school, I'd be like, bye. Happy, like, bye. Yeah, good luck on your reading journey. Have fun. But so he did find a part-time job at Omcar, which was a clothing boutique at Petticoat Lane Market in London. I love that name, Petticoat Lane Market. I love it. It was owned by the Sheff family.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
And the job paid in cash, and according to Peter, he supplemented his income by selling drugs and stealing from his employers. Fantastic. So he worked, he also stole from the people employing him, and he sold drugs. Awesome. In 1992, when Peter was in his early 20s, his drug and alcohol use had escalated. Increased exponentially. I mean, you start that shit when you're a teenager. That's scary.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Well, there's not a lot going on, so why don't we get right into it? Yeah, nothing going on in these streets. Nothing going on that I want to talk about. Nope.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
He was spending nearly every cent he made or had on drugs. And he reported that some days he would just spend all day at a friend's house or acquaintance house getting high. So sad. This period of his life was very unstable. In addition to the drug and alcohol abuse, his housing was unstable and his employment status was like...
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
teetering formal i would say yeah like really not solid he had actually left his parents house because they told him get out get out yeah when he and he had left at 17 or 18 and had been staying in hostels or staying with friends ever since wow and it was through his occasional work at the shops that peter met the chef's daughter they were the people that own the shop oh no nisha
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
So the chef's children, who also included a son seven years younger than Nisha, would often help their parents in the shops. They were regularly there. Yeah, that makes sense. They were fixtures in those family businesses. Right. In interviews with his doctors later, Peter claimed he and Nisha had a, quote, intimate relationship. Okay. Though he said the two had not had sex.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
okay her parents on the other hand said abso-fucking-lutely not they did not they were not anything past co-workers they weren't even friends wow yeah what a weird thing to make up and i would believe her parents sometimes though it's crazy how people can think that like they're your best friend and you're like i barely know you yeah like she i think he had a delusional relationship with her
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
In 1993, Nisha was in her first year at South Bank University where she was studying social work. She was a very compassionate young woman. I mean, her friends and neighbors described her as the nicest, sweetest girl you could ever hope to meet. And she would, quote, never have a crossword for anyone.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Nothing good anymore. Nothing good. Bad, bad, bad. So let's talk about something worse. You know what? Let's get into something worse. All right, cool. Because I think that's really where we are. Loves it. We're going to talk about the London cannibal. Tell me everything. Peter Bryan.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
She had always been kind to Peter Bryan. If you tell me that she's his first victim, I'm gonna be upset. She had always been kind to Peter Bryan, which makes his actions even more heinous when we get to them.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Nisha was on the phone and didn't see Peter enter, so he turned his attention towards her brother, her 12-year-old brother. Oh, God. He struck him in the head with the hammer and knocked him out to the floor. What the fuck?
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
This caught Nisha's attention, obviously, so she turned just in time to see Peter, who pulled her away from the phone and threw her onto the floor and then began repeatedly hitting her with the hammer.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
This escalated so quickly? He just walked in there and just attacked them both. When he came to a moment later, Bobby, 12-year-old Bobby, fled from the store to get help. And he fled out onto the Kings Road District, and he was chased by Brian. He chased him for a few blocks until he realized he was being pursued by a passerby who saw this whole thing. Oh, my God.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
So turning around, Peter, I'm talking about Peter Brian, he brandished the hammer at the guy that was running at him and warned the man to keep back. and then fled in the direction of Chelsea Manor Street.
Morbid
Episode 619: Peter Bryan
Now, this whole thing was like crazy quick. He ran in there. It was like a violent just ambush. Out of nowhere. Yeah. And during this whole thing, he said nothing to Nisha or Bobby. That's so chilling. Like silent. And just like what, what, why did he want it? What was the motive here? Like what, what motivated this? Well, the attack was so bad and this is very graphic just so you're aware.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Whenever it's like no rhyme or reason to the ransacking, it's definitely staged. And nothing is missing. And nothing is missing.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And what a badass. Oh, yeah. Organizing four very active young children's lives, that alone is hard to do. And then you add on being the den mother, being a part of the Boy Scout troop, a leader of the Brownie troop. Teaching stuff at church. Teaching a kindergarten class. Being a member of the choir. A president of the Women's Association. Like, she's literally everything.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah. I can barely handle my shit, and I don't have half of that. I don't even have kids, and I don't know what I'm doing half the time.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And she's like a young mom. Yeah. What's she getting into?
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Carol seems like the type of woman who, when she does something, she fucking... Yeah, she doesn't half-ass anything. No, Carol whole-assed everything, and you can see that.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I did wonder when you said like she dropped out of school and they got married.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And it's like, obviously that absolutely, if that was her choice and she was happy with that choice, then more power to her.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I just wondered. I had like a weird little pinch. Well, it seems sudden too.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So I wonder, because I don't know if it's going to go any further than that, but I'm like, it sounds like they were just like good friends. Yeah. Like legitimately good friends and maybe on his end he liked her.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And you're like, you know, I kind of get like, I can see. Yeah, I get territorial. Because you think there's varying degrees of appropriateness when it comes to a relationship like that, when you're married especially. So it's like, I can understand that from an outside point of view, it can be like, oh, you know, they're just like, that's a nice friendship. And then I'm like, but you know what?
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
This is Morbid. And it's before Thanksgiving, but for you guys it's after Thanksgiving, I think. Isn't that weird? So we have not given thanks yet. Thank you. But because you have, I hope you had fun. Yes.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
If you're in the relationship, it's probably going to look a little different.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Oh, you gotta go. That's it. I don't know how this ends, so I'm not going to sit here and I'm not going to dog on somebody and say that it's definitely them.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Different life insurances from different companies and this happens?
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
That would make my red flags go flappy, flappy, flappy.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Which, like, okay, yeah, that all sounds great. Yeah. Why do you have eight?
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
That's the thing. Like, you're not answering my question. Yeah. Cotton. The most is six.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
We'll stay thankful for you. It'll be a whole thing.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah, so he knows that's going to make him, but also it's like, they're going to find them. Yeah, that's the thing. So just be upfront and be like, listen, I know you're going to find these things and you're going to question me about them, so let me get ahead of it.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And now he's got to call and be like, yeah, that gun piece found at that murder scene, that's my gun. But I promise you I wasn't there. Now he's got to go through the whole rigmarole.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I know. A lot of people would be like, I'm not getting wrapped up in that.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Can all of these men stop stealing other people's shit? They literally cannot and will not. Yeah, sticky fingers Magoo gang here.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Like, how did that connect? When I said earlier, like, I'm pretty sure she doesn't have connections to organized crime. She doesn't. Whoa. But somehow they know about her.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
That just means more for you. It sure does. My kids like the vanilla ones with me.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Can you imagine how excited the investigators felt after going through this whole thing and finally getting this fucking gun, this murder weapon, in the middle of the woods? Like, can you imagine how... It must be the most insane feeling to finally get there.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
They pulled that thread and kept pulling it, and to end up with the actual murder weapon in the middle of the woods is wild for me.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
He had this motherfucker come into his house while his children were still in this house. His four children. He had a mobster with a fucking rap sheet sneak into his goddamn house while his kids were in there. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
This is like, I'm feeling so betrayed lately from my, the people I love the most, what they love and what they don't love. Why? What else happened? Because you just said that. And then John, we were finishing up Follow the House of Usher.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Dick Anderson is like the guy who they were like, this doesn't even make sense that he's connected to all these criminals because he's like a petty thief.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
He's the one that you wouldn't even, my goodness. You wouldn't even expect him. That's the thing. And he's a brutal fucking monster.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
The other night, Mike Flanagan. I want to watch that. And he was like, yeah, I'm not like really into this. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? And he wasn't into Midnight Mass either. And he was like, and then he said the words. And Mike Flanagan, if you're listening. He didn't mean it. Mike Flanagan, if you're listening, you have a fan in this house. It's me. Not John.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Oh, what a piece of actual fucking shit. He had his son do it. You put that on your kid? Yep. Like, fuck this guy into oblivion. Into oblivion. Fuck this guy.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
He had a man, a criminal, who he has no idea what he's capable of hiding his house while his kids are walking around upstairs. He has zero moral compass.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But John was like, yeah, I don't know if I really like Mike Flanagan's stuff. And I was like, I don't know how to accept that. Did you say, I don't know who you even are. I'm just not sure how you watch two things with Kate in it that is made by... Mike Flanagan. You said two things with Kate? Kate Siegel. Kate, okay. His wife. Oh, okay. Who's in both of them. Okay. Who's a phenomenal actress.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But regardless... It's the perfect time for that tune. It's 1963 especially.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Wow, so he's just like a literal slimy piece of... Fucking dung. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah, just, like, someone that pays attention and is kind to her.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Which makes me even angrier that that motherfucker was out there doing everything he wanted and he was being that possessive.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And here I was being like, oh, yeah, you know, like, I guess when you're in the relationship. But he was doing whatever the fuck he wanted out there in those streets. Yeah, whoever and whatever.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Exactly. She just has a male friend and you're, ugh. Literally just a friend. Fuck you, Cotton.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
She's just chef's kiss. And tell me you're not really into them. I don't understand that way of living.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah, and I mean, those policies were set to expire the following month.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Well, and he wants all this fucking money. It's like you're making that money.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
It's not like you're struggling. It's not like one of these situations where it's like the family is struggling financially and they're like last, you know, and it's obviously it's never okay. But in those situations, there's a desperation factor that like plays into it.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
We're going to try again because I refuse to accept it, so I think I'm too afraid.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Why the fuck are you being so specific? Yeah, it's like, girl, come on. First of all, stop fucking a married guy. And second of all, when he's giving you a time frame, you got to wonder. You got to wonder what that time frame implies.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
No. Guys, we got to use the stuff between your ears here.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So some guy, some high-powered defense attorney... who's like fucking everything with two legs, is out here telling you that he's got to get 85 life insurance policies on his wife, his young wife, his young healthy wife. His family, too. And he's got to do it quick, quick, quick, quick. And you know why? He had a vision. You know, it's so weird.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I just have this weird vision that she's going to meet with a tragic accident and die. And none of you sat there and said, you know what? We might want to call someone and maybe put some tabs on that guy because I feel like that's shady behavior.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
They were just like, sure, sign it here. I'll get my check. Okay, cool. It's all money. Everyone's just like, whatever. I got paid. Yep. Money talks.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
An eccentric for life insurance. Like what? Hello? Are we really just giving them that? So we're really just like not taking all the responsibility off him.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
That's what I don't get. Like, I'm like, I could never, I can't imagine causing harm to John. No. Or having someone else cause harm to John. For money. Emotionally, physically, anything. Anything, but for money. Like, I, and it, like, I just can't, I can't even picture, I can't even picture the thinking that money is going to, like, Like, that you're going to hold that money and feel good.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Like, what is wrong with you? I think he would have. You have to be dead inside.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Especially on his birthday, because I was like, I do hate that he got to die peacefully in his sleep.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
He got to, like, at least be out. Yeah, that pisses me off. He got a lot of time on the other side.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
You're gonna die on your birthday if you do some fuck shit, okay?
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
That's the thing. Like, you'd be constantly thinking, like, why didn't I just ignore that? But it's like, why would you ever ignore that? And especially in 1963, you're not disobeying your father when he tells you to do something. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
definitely not like that was just you did what you were told yeah by a parent who is supposed to be a safe place and that you are supposed to feel comfortable doing what you're told and why would you question that you know like he said like they never locked that door so he did kind of question it but he's not gonna out loud question it and he's not gonna sit there and think okay he's having me lock that because he's gonna have my mom killed and he doesn't want her to escape like that's not gonna be in your head you can never come up with that that's your worst nightmare
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I'll wait to watch it with you. It's a banger of a miniseries. It's only eight episodes. And he is... Mike Flanagan's brilliant. And so is his wife.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But I feel like you... TV show wise, I'm saying. He just has a way. And he... The atmosphere that he creates in his shows and movies, I think you will appreciate in a big way.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Oh, she's the one who said, like, I think something's going on over there.
Morbid
Episode 671: The Murder of Carol Stuart
Hey, weirdos, if Ash and Elena's episode on Ken McElroy left you wondering how someone could become so cruel, manipulative and untouchable, you'll want to hear my psychological breakdown of this case on my podcast, Killer Psyche. I examined the twisted mindset behind McElroy's reign of terror, how he exploited fear, used charm as a weapon and turned an entire town into his victims.
Morbid
Episode 671: The Murder of Carol Stuart
Understanding what made him tick is exactly the kind of insight I bring on Killer Psyche, where I use my experience profiling criminals for the FBI to uncover what drives people like Ken McElroy to become predators. So if you're curious about the mind behind the mayhem, join me for an inside look at the psychology of a man who got away with everything until he didn't.
Morbid
Episode 671: The Murder of Carol Stuart
Follow Killer Psyche on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Hey weirdos, Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah, technically it has. And just parents out there, so you know, weird virus, strange virus, very quick. So that's good. That's nice. It's a stomach virus, but it's not as intense as like the normal like norovirus or something like that.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
He was also an asshole. He flew into a rage a lot, like very quickly. He could not accept any kind of criticism, what he deemed criticism. And Eileen, the mother, was referred to as a stolid woman who dressed neatly and plainly. Oh, okay. It was made pretty clear from Eileen, the mother, that Jerry's brother Larry was her favorite child.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And also, what is wrong with you that you have a favorite?
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
That's the thing. Like, maybe you get along with one on, like, a better level. And you feel, like, more of a connection there. Like, maybe that's what she was talking about. But it's, like, to then let the other one know that.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And then not just, like, work on that. Right. Yeah. So she really, she was very much more supportive of his brother, Larry. And honestly, she didn't make any bones about letting Jerry know that she wanted a girl. And she was hoping he was a girl. Oh, no.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
So it's a little, it's got some Ed Gein vibes with the mother kind of thing where it's like these awful feelings of like, you're not good enough and you're not what I wanted.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. And she literally did not hide her disappointment that he was even born. Wow.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
You should be psyched that you have a healthy child.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Exactly. And because of this whole thing, like they never bonded and she never made any attempt to bond with that child. And then she was very abusive and hostile to him his whole life. And just Jerry, not Larry. Mostly. I think she was just like I think she was in general, but she very much took her anger out on him. Took it mostly out on Jerry. I don't think Larry got as much at all.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
That's so fucked. And later, Jerry would describe his mother as stubborn and a selfish egotist. Oh, okay. Damn. Yeah. So she sounds like she was also like very narcissistic. It does sound that way. Kind of vibes. I'm not diagnosing, but like has those vibes. Yes. Now, this one incident that Jerry could remember from when he was younger definitely had a profound effect.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
The kind of thoughts he would have later on, I'm not saying what he did later on, but like definitely led him into a strange thought process. One afternoon while exploring an old junkyard when he was five years old.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Like imagine my youngest in a junkyard by themselves.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
No. He was just, you know, he was out there five years old just exploring a local junkyard.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And he came across, I know, and he came across a pair of patent leather high-heeled shoes in the trash. Awesome. And his mother was a very, very extremely conservative woman. So she did not wear high heels. She wore plain flats, and that was it. So he had never seen high heels. So this was just something new to him. He was just like, whoa.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
I mean, I'm going to knock on wood. I'll take this one because it seems to be a literal 12 hour experience. And then they're kind of just on their way out of it. Like it started last night. Was over pretty quick with my oldest. And now she's sitting eating saltines.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And he was kind of fascinated by them, so he took them home. Okay. Because he's like... He's five. He's five. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And so he's back in his bedroom and he's like playing with the shoes and he's putting them on himself. He's just walking around like they're a fun thing to play with. And he was just kind of parading around his bedroom at five years old with these shoes, which honestly, so his mother caught him, which any, I feel like in any other circumstances, this would just be like.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Oh, you found, like what the, I hope those aren't dirty. Yeah. Like that would be my only fear. It's like, hey, let's wash those. They're from the trash. Yeah. Yeah. I'll get you some costume ones. But she did not take it well. She... Very different time. Yeah, very different time. And she was very conservative. So this was how she felt no matter what. And she was furious. She berated him.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
She was very harsh on him. She like punished him for it and demanded that he get rid of the shoes.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
It's not wrong anyways, but you wouldn't understand that. Why she would say it's wrong. And that's the thing. He could not understand why she was angry. Right. Why did that make you angry? I didn't do anything to upset anybody.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
I'm just playing with these things I found that aren't hurting anyone. I don't understand what the problem is. And so he didn't think he'd done anything wrong. Because he hadn't. And so he hid the shoes in his bedroom instead of getting rid of them. And a few days later, she found him playing with the shoes again.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And she was even more angry and then forced him to watch as she burned them in the backyard.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
That's like sadistic. And it's just fucking weird behavior. Like you're burning the shoes. What the fuck? What are they going to do? Like, what are you doing? And not only that, she then locked him in his bedroom for the rest of the day at five years old.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
That's the thing. I'm like, what are you doing? And when he was finally let out of his bedroom, he immediately ran to the home of a neighbor. who was a single woman that he had bonded with. This single woman kind of was like a stand-in for her mother. I was wondering if that was the... Like she kind of took care of him a little bit. She knew what was going on.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And it sounds like this woman was like a real one. Like she was just trying to... She was trying to like be there for him. But she knew, especially at the time, it's like, you know, in the 30s and 40s. And it's like, she's not going to step in. She doesn't know what the boundaries are here. So she's just kind of being there for him when she can. Right. Kind of thing.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And letting him into her home, which I'm like... What a nice lady. I know, yeah. Like, damn. I wish that lady was more of an influence in his life, to be honest.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah, exactly. Well, and then, unfortunately, a year later, the family moved to Riverton, California. And that's where Jerry started attending first grade. Years later, Jerry would talk about this period as another significant moment in the development of his fetish that would later come out later violently. His first grade teacher would wear high heels every day.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
It's very nice. So I'm hoping, you know, she'll be on the mend and be eating by tomorrow like real food. So we'll see.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And every day, Jerry would just be fascinated with them and daydreamed about them. He just thought they were the prettiest shoes you could possibly wear. He loved them. I mean, high heels are great.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. Yeah. And it was well known that this particular teacher would bring two pairs of shoes to school, a pair for work and a pair for the afternoon. She would like change into sneakers kind of thing.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. And like, I guess like, you know, she would change into them like later in the day. And one afternoon when he could no longer resist the temptation, he stole the pair of high heels out of the teacher's desk when she stepped out of the room and he hid them in the play area. And he was intending to bring them home later. Yeah. But he was hiding them for later.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
But one of the children found them. Yeah. And, you know, before the end of the day and brought them back to the teacher. And nothing crazy happened from that, but it was just clearly a moment of like, he's kind of taking it seriously. further by stealing them now. And this time in Jerry's life was also significant because he was dealing with a lot of health problems.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
In fact, during second grade, he missed a lot of school. He was home a lot and in the hospital a lot with measles, laryngitis. He had two fungal infections that required surgery. And he also had, according to Jerry, he had problems with the veins in his legs, and it would cause him a lot of pain and difficulty moving. Oh, wow. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
So according to him, he said the veins were ballooning and I had to have the operations because they were not doing their job. So I'm assuming there was a lot of like circulation issues. Yeah. Now the multiple surgeries and other things he was dealing with meant that he had to stay at home a lot. Oh, no. And that meant he had to be with his mom a lot. Uh-huh.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And at this point in second grade, he had already come to despise her.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Like, that's sad. Yeah, that's very sad. He spent most of his time trying to avoid her in second grade at seven years old. And like, you know, a lot of young people, these early life experiences are eventually going to kind of mingle within, like, your adult experiences, and they're going to create certain things. Yeah. You know, fetishes, certain fears, certain...
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Things that you're attracted to, like things that repulse you. Your early childhood really does have a lot to do with that. They call them your formative years. Exactly. It's like where you're developing is like such a huge part of you. And it's like that's where we all end up being in fucking therapy and finding out these random things that you're like, fuck, that's where that comes from.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. Yes, and a lot of it is trauma-based. A lot of it is negative-based. Of course, there's those core memories that form great things later in life.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah, and things that you love and make you happy and things, you know, your career. Hobbies. Hobbies. But these negative things really make their mark, unfortunately. And the poor relationship with his very abusive mother and feelings of abandonment, you know, those kind of things would lead to negative opinions about women in general as he grew older.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Because that's just like their first experience with a woman.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. I feel like an almost... blips a lot with girls where if you have a poor relationship with your father you end up trying to seek out yes almost that without realizing it yes like you you end up finding men that are like that you know and not necessarily punishing them for it but almost receiving the punishment over and over yourself i was gonna say exactly punishing yourself yeah it's
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. Psychology is wild. It really is. And so as he grew older, his opinions about women were dog shit. And also the secrecy around his fascination with women's shoes because he never grew out of that. It stayed. And what he felt was like taboo excitement about them that he would get from them and It kept growing and growing, and that would be fine. A fetish is a fetish. A kink is a kink.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Nobody's here to shame anybody about that. What you like is what you like. You shouldn't feel ashamed about it unless it's hurting someone. And the problem here was it took a sinister turn. Yeah. Because... He wasn't just keeping these secret for his own well-being. He was keeping it secret because he was taught to. And he was taught that it was wrong.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And he was taught that what he was doing was disgusting and something to be shamed of.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yes. You know? It's true. She turned it into a taboo thing. Right. Because at first, when he was five, he sat there and said, like, why is this weird? Like, why are you mad at me?
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah, these are just pretty. I just like these shoes. Right. And when he reached puberty and began to associate those feelings with other things, he would associate them with secrecy, shame, and excitement with sex. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. This also kind of went with he experienced death at a young age as well. A childhood friend passed away, one that he was close to when he was very young.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
I know. I feel like she's like a real one. Like she really is. And I think she was just like, I got it. She's like in the Green Mile, John Coffey. I've never seen that. He just like takes in all the bad stuff. He'll like touch someone and take in all the bad stuff. And then he evacuates it out of his body. It's like bees or something or like bugs. Oh, okay.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And then also that neighbor who was his only source of support, she passed away as well.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. So that also became mixed up with these feelings as he was entering puberty. And so he would forever associate his sexual interest in women's clothing and shoes. And that would kind of be fused with his resentment of women. And then it would also fuse with his fascination and kind of like dealing with death at a young age. So it all kind of fused together.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And again, you never know when these things are going to fuse into one of these little shit balls of just nightmares. Because people grow through these things all the time. People go through death at a young age. People go through being interested in something that you kind of feel ashamed about, that you've been taught to be shamed about.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And, you know, like people deal with shitty parents and shitty mothers and shitty, you know, authority figures all the time. Yeah. Sometimes they deal with all three of them and they don't turn into this. Right. So you just you just don't know. It's like, is it a timing thing? Is it you don't know what's going to just fuse it into that like shit ball that's going to turn into this.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. You just you can't you really can't predict it. No. But by the time Jerry reached adolescence, the family had moved again, this time to Salem, Oregon. And that's where Henry Brudos, the father, was trying again to be a farmer.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And Jerry didn't realize it, but by this time, where he was reaching adolescence, he had already started developing particular sexual interests that he knew, whether from inference or whether it was implicated to him, He knew he couldn't discuss these sexual interests with others, especially his parents. Okay. Which is a problem.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
In fact, in the Brudos household, it's not like he couldn't just discuss these kind of niche and maybe taboo interests he was forming. He couldn't discuss those with his parents, but there was an air of secrecy and shame that was just around all sex. Yeah. Like... Sex was not talked about. It was treated as something that was disgusting and dirty.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Like those are already problematic things that you're teaching your kids because that's not going to give them a healthy relationship with it. But then he's got all these private fantasies that he's being taught were taboo. And it's like you infuse all that together. That's a mess. He's holding it in.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
So eventually it's going to explode or he's going to be doing it in secret ways, which is going to lead to him like – stealing things and spying on people and like doing it in the shadows and you don't want that yeah exactly it's not good i mean at no time did his parents ever explain sex to their children uh sex education was not taught in schools at the time
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
I think I've seen like a preview of that. Yeah. He just like coughs it all out. And I feel like my girl, she did that last night. She took all the shit of the week and then she just barfed it out. Yeah, she said bleh. She's a real one. That's my girl right there.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah, that's the thing. So what he learned about it was what he saw on the farm. Roll that around in your head. No. Yeah, he saw things happening on the farm that no one explained to him. Or from what little he could take away from boys' conversations at school.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Which is also going to not be an education that you really want. No. So yeah. No. We're not coming into adolescence strong. We're coming in guns blazing. Yeah. Not in the best way. No. So when he reached his teen years, his fantasies were already taking a violent turn. It was pretty much on track.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Unbeknownst to his parents, he spent days digging a hidden tunnel on a rarely visited part of their farm. And in that tunnel, he would just sit there and fantasize about keeping a girl there captive. Oh, fuck. And by his own admission later, he said he didn't even know what he wanted to do with her there. He said he just knew he wanted a girl to be there and to not be able to leave.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
He didn't even know. He said he didn't know enough about sex or what he was feeling to think that that's why he wanted her there. He just knew he had these like overwhelming feelings enough that he had to dig a tunnel and make that actually a reality. And he knew he wanted to keep a woman there. Okay. Which is, like, so fucking chilling.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And at this same time, he was already stealing women's undergarments and shoes. He would steal them from clothing lines. Okay. And sometimes he would go into unlocked houses in the neighborhood and steal them.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. So he's crossing lines in a big way here. He's jumping right over them.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. That's a place of no return a lot of the time. Yeah. Now, these fantasies finally converged when Jerry was only 16 years old. One afternoon, he stole a neighbor's underwear from her laundry line and later approached her and offered to help her find her missing clothing.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
But when she arrived at his house a short time later, he just took her by knife point at 16 years old and forced her to undress while he took pictures of her.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. We woke up to very good news about a guest we're going to have in the first part of the year next year, like February. We can't tell you yet because it's too exciting and we want to make sure we lock it down first. But that's it's going to be a very exciting one. It was like first thing in the morning.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And at this time, Jerry had been wearing a heavy black mask so that the girl couldn't see who he was. But she knew who he was. Yeah, he's at his house. Because he had offered to help her and she came to his house. He said, hey, meet me at my house. Yeah. And years later, somebody asked her because she didn't report the crime to the police. OK.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And years later, people asked her, like, why didn't you report this crime? And she said, I knew who it was all the time. I was scared if I told he would find me out and he would kill me.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
So she, I mean, just knowing what he was doing there, you know, he's capable of a lot. But I think also she's like, I knew who he was. Like I could tell.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
horrific dark yeah horrific and this whole incident had been the first foray that he took into actual sexual assault um and well it was probably unbelievably like something we can't even fathom traumatizing for this girl she was she was able to get out of there with her life fortunately but it was the victim right after her that didn't get away so easily
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
He escalated. He didn't escalate to murder, but he escalated. Okay. She didn't get out of there unharmed physically. Okay, okay. So from the moment that this first girl, who we're not going to name, that got away like just and talked about it later and said, I didn't want to report it. As soon as she left the house, Jerry was immediately fantasizing of doing it to another woman. He loved it.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
But he was worried he was going to get caught. So eight months passed, and still he didn't do it again. But he felt confident after eight months that he could get away with another assault. So in 1956, he lured a 17-year-old girl into his car, promising her a ride home. So as they drove, the girl became confused when Jerry started talking to her as though they were on a date. Oh, no.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And she was like, this is not, you're just driving me home.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
No. And her confusion turned to panic when it occurred to her that Jerry had already driven well past where he was supposed to drop her off. And he was just driving further and further into a more remote part of Oregon. And once they had reached a vacant location in his mind, Jerry pulled the car off the side of the road and hit the girl with a pipe in the face.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And then hit her in the neck and chest with it.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
She was screaming and trying to flee, but Jerry was much bigger. And she had already been beaten at this point, so she didn't have her wits about her. She didn't have any strength to get away. She was just completely out of it. And he hit her several more times with the pipe and his fists and then dragged her from the vehicle and demanded that she start stripping for him.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And when she refused, he punched her in the face. squarely in the nose, and she started screaming again.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
This poor woman. And fortunately, at that same time that he was punching her in the face and she was screaming, a couple was driving down the road with their windows open. Oh, my... Thank God. And they heard the screams. So the man, which I was like, what a badass man, he immediately pulled over the car to investigate.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And when they reached the location, he saw this large man looming over this screaming woman on the ground. So he ran right to her aid. Wow. Like he was like, fuck this guy. That's brave. And when he demanded an explanation, Jerry said, she fell out of the car. She's just hysterical because it scared her. And this guy was like, fuck you. Like, no.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
So this guy was like, shut the fuck up. I know that's not what happened. So he changed his story and said, oh, well, actually, she was attacked by someone, by some weirdo. And she was fighting him off when I drove up and ran to help her. Oh, the hero. Yeah. So according to Jerry, the attacker ran off into the woods just before the other couple had driven up.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
He was like, oh, thank goodness you're here. How convenient. But you just missed him. Wow. Wow.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And when it was just him and this relatively defenseless young woman, Jerry had no difficulty asserting himself and being horrifyingly scary. But in the presence of anyone else, when someone else came upon them, oh my, did he yield. He made up the lie, but he shrunk right down. When the second explanation was also not going to convince this guy, he also was like, fuck you.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
I know that's not what happened. You're the attacker. I know that.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. He was like, so when that didn't work, the couple insisted that they take the girl and Jerry back to their house to get it sorted out and they were going to call the police. So he agreed. And once they were there, the husband called the Oregon State Police and they transported the girl to the hospital and Jerry was taken to the police barracks for questioning. Gave right up.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yes. And we were about to check in just to be like, oh, do we think this will happen? And they checked in, which was wild. Yeah. So that's going to be exciting. And then, guys. This is a biggie. I knew Ghost was announcing something this morning and I said, oh no, what is it? What could it be? And they had a chapter in the lore and they edged us on Papa again. But no.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And with another stranger, like, holy shit. Right. So once he was in custody, he confessed everything to the police. Just boom. He claimed he'd only wanted to scare her into taking off her clothes so he could take pictures. And then he denied he'd ever done anything like that before, which we know is not true. He said his temper just got the best of him.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Now, unfortunately for Jerry, detectives searched his car and found his photography equipment in the trunk, which they very correctly interpreted as a sign of premeditation. So meanwhile, other officers went to the Brudos household and spoke to Eileen, his mother. Oh, God. Who gave them permission to search her son's bedroom because she doesn't give a shit about him.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And they found a hidden bunch of stolen women's clothing and photographs of a nude girl clearly posing under duress. Oh, no. That was the first victim. Now, well, when Eileen confronted her son about what they'd found, he claimed another boy had taken the pictures and forced Jerry to develop them for him. He said, I had to. He said he'd beat me up if I didn't. Jerry, come on.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Jerry, shut the fuck up. Jerry was arrested and charged with assault and battery, which prompted the state authorities to take a closer look at his history. So they spoke with neighbors and they discovered the previous assault that Jerry had committed against that original woman, who a year later finally felt safe telling the authorities what had happened. Now that he's in custody. Yeah.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And given what they had learned and what they found in Jerry's bedroom, he was taken to the Oregon State Hospital for evaluation. Okay. Because they were like, something is very wrong here. Now, at the time, Jerry Brudos was a 16-year-old sophomore in high school. Oh, my God.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
He's already this brutal at 16 years old. That's horrifying. Yeah. And in his interview with hospital staff, he said he didn't like rough sports, but instead preferred things like 4-H and Boy Scouts and photography. And despite the circumstances under what he'd been arrested for, he was very, like, visibly uncomfortable talking about sex.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Like, he had been arrested for forcing a girl to strip in front of him, and he could not talk about it. Right.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
So Jerry told the doctors he suffered from nocturnal emissions about every two months. But he had, quote, tried to live a clean life and didn't smoke or drink. What is a nocturnal emission? Wet dreams.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Oh, yeah. In fact, while they were aware of the things he'd done, doctors still struggled to arrive at a diagnosis. I mean... Or to even provide insight. Yeah. They were like, you're a strange one. And I mean, he is. Yeah. In one evaluation, the psychiatrist wrote, the boy does not appear to be grossly mentally ill.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
He comes shyly into the interview situation and sits down in a dejected fashion to talk with great embarrassment about his difficulty. He tends to be evasive on a basis of his acute embarrassment and is somewhat rambling and verbose in trying to tell his story. There is no evidence of suicide, homicide, or destructive urges. Wrong.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
He feels that he sometimes has trouble controlling his temper, but that has never got him into trouble except on this last occasion when he maintains that he cannot remember too clearly exactly what he did. How convenient. Yeah. But was told that the girl received a broken nose. Oh, my God. His insight and judgment are questionable.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
He feels there must be something the matter with him, and he hopes that he will be able to find it out and have it cured here. Strange.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
They announced a fucking world tour.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Or if he really wanted help. Who knows?
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Now, ultimately, doctors arrived at a diagnosis of adjustment reaction of adolescence with sexual deviation fetishism. Yikes. So, despite having been convicted, Jerry was allowed to return to school during the day. But then he would have to go back to the hospital. Okay. Yeah. So somehow this was kept secret from his peers at the time. Wow. They didn't know about him being in the hospital.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
They didn't know about his arrest. So he wasn't dealing with any attention based on that. But after about nine months at the state hospital, the medical staff determined that he was no longer a threat and he was discharged back into his parents' care.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Lost my damn mind. They're coming to Boston.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
No, he was going to kill that woman.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And a year later, Jerry graduated from high school and enrolled at Oregon State University for a few semesters before dropping out in March 1959 when he joined the U.S. Army and was sent to Fort Gordon, Georgia for basic training.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Exactly. For Jerry, the army was his first chance to be completely away from his parents, particularly his mother.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And he wanted to establish his own life. He wanted to, like, go get away from what he had been doing. But his old habits and interests were plaguing him. They could not be put away. During the day, he trained at the Signal Corps, giving him the opportunity to pursue his interest in electronics and communications. But at night, his fantasies overtook, and he just couldn't get away from them.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Not long after transferring to Georgia, he became convinced that, quote, a Korean girl was sneaking into the barracks each night and crawling into his bed and trying to seduce him. All right. Which I'm like, so he's hallucinating now? Yeah. Yes. He said, I didn't want her and I came up fighting and beat her badly, he later said.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And he said the scene would replay itself every night. And to him, it was very real. Is that a nightmare or is it a straight up hallucination? It must be his hallucination because no one else in the barracks ever saw a woman sneaking in, heard any noise, like wasn't happening. Soon, he came to dismiss this thing as a kind of hallucination or dream.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
but he was disturbed he said that the woman in his dream had aroused such hatred in him okay he said he could feel how much he hated her and he said he not only wanted the woman to stop trying to seduce him but he also wanted to beat her and at times he said i wanted to kill her what the fuck Yeah, his revelations later are like, what the fuck? Yeah.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Well, and interestingly here is he became concerned about his own mental health here. Like, he became self-aware. Really? And he knew that this was a problem. That he... felt anger and hatred towards this hallucinating woman and that he wanted to beat her, he wanted to kill her. So he's consulted the army chaplain about it. Wow.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And this army chaplain referred him to the staff psychiatrist, Captain Theodore Barry. So after hearing the story about this woman and his desire to harm her, Barry was convinced that Jerry was unfit for service. So on October 15th, 1959, he was discharged under AR 635-208, which is a determination that the individual is unfit for service despite reasonable attempts to correct the problem. Okay.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
I think they're going to New York doing Madison Square Garden for the first time too. That would be a cool one.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Now, he was 20 years old at the time, and now he's unemployed, so he has no choice but to move back in with his parents, which I think is the worst thing that could happen.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Of some sort. Right. But so he had to move back on the farm in Oregon and he started sleeping in the spare bedroom. But not long after he did this, Larry, his brother, returned home from college and his mother said that Larry should have the spare bedroom. And she said, Jerry, you go live out in the old shed.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
They must have shared a bedroom. What the fuck? And now they're not allowed. Now he's not allowed to share the bedroom with Larry. He has to stay in the old shed.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah, she sounds like a truly just piece of shit individual.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Now, frustrated and very isolated in the shed, he fell right back to his old habits and, you know, he was trying to relieve his anxieties and his hallucinations. Now, at first, he went right back to stealing women's underwear and women's shoes like he had when he was a child and an adolescent, but it quickly escalated.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
One evening, while Jerry was running errands in nearby Salem, he spotted a woman in a red dress and started following her.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Which takes a while. Yeah. He just dropped her body to the floor. He didn't know what to do next, though. So he stole the woman's shoes and ran back to his car before anyone spotted him. So that's it? He just choked her into unconsciousness. This is the wild part of him. It's like him digging the hole. He digs the hole. He knows he wants a woman to be in there. Right.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah, very different, but you know.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
But he doesn't know what he wants to do with her. Right. And even now he chokes this woman. He does something physically violent, chokes her to the point of unconsciousness, drops her on the ground and then says, I don't know what to do now. And just takes the shoes. Why did I do that? Like, what's my next move?
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah, and I think it might be that he is so fucked up about sex and what he is interested in and what excites him. And he's had it drilled so hard into him that it's like shameful and taboo and secret and all this shit and like violence and all this stuff is intermingling that he literally does not know what to do with a woman. Right.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
I want to go to that one really bad. I feel like that would be a fun one. To New York? Yeah. Yeah. Make it a whole lot.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Like he knows he wants to do something, but he's so fucking uneducated about it in a healthy way that he literally doesn't know what to do next. He's like, I know I want to do something.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And I know this excites me. I just don't literally don't know what the next step is.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. Like he doesn't even know what he's supposed to be doing. In his, like, deranged mind, you know? It's very scary. It's very strange and it's, like, very different from a lot of these assholes we've covered. Right.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Now, in the weeks that followed that, a pattern started emerging where Jerry would become stressed and go out for a walk and he would stalk a woman he noticed on the street, follow her for a time, and then would attack her, choke her, steal her shoes or other clothing items, and then he would just leave her.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And return to this shed on his parents' farm where he would fantasize and sleep with the shoes and just like touch the clothing. What the fuck? And feel like he was like in control again or like feel some sort of power.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
You heard it here, folks. Ash is coming. I said to New York with you.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
At a time in his life when he found himself again under his mom's like domineering ways and like abusive ways, I think the stalking and thefts he said later gave him this like weird sense of empowerment and control that he was looking for.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And he was so fucked up that that's the route that he took, you know?
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Because you know they're stolen it off of an unconscious woman that he's just attacked. Right. And it's like... what is this about? I mean, we find out what it's about.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
I'll go with you. It will be, but I'm really excited. And that means, I mean, guys, we're going to know who the new pop is soon because they haven't, they redacted the name of the tour because I'm assuming it has something, it would give something away.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And he didn't have any friends at this time. He didn't really have any home life. Like, he's got nothing going on except his own anxieties and fantasies. And shed life. Yeah. So apparently his professional life, though, is one of the bright spots, like the only bright spot in his life. His training with the Signal Corps had prepared him for a career in radio communications.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And after he had returned home, he found a job as an engineer with a small radio station in Corvallis. Wow. That's a good job. Yeah. And it was there that he met Ralphine Schwindler, who was a 17-year-old girl who was friendly. And she was friends with a boy who hung around the radio station most afternoons. So like Jerry, Ralphine was shy and timid, had basically no experience with dating.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And when she first met Jerry, she was not into him. She was very unimpressed, which I don't blame her. He was 66 years older than her.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And she later said, I probably wouldn't have accepted a date with him at all, except that he asked me to go swimming and I love to swim. She's like, you know what? Any chance to go swimming? Any time to jump in that water, you know? What a queen. But by the time he was in his early 20s, Jerry's hatred and disgust of women was well cemented.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
But he felt differently about Ralphine.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah, most women intimidated him, which is why he hated and was disgusted by them. But Ralphine seemed to be kind of easygoing. She laughed at his jokes. She's young. Yeah, like seemed to eventually care for him in a way that he had not experienced with any other woman besides that one neighbor. So I think maybe it hearkened back to that. Right.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And while most people view Jerry as just a fucking failure and a loser, she kind of didn't. She didn't make him seem that way, at least. And Ralphine was honestly, she kind of showed that she was a little like impressed by him at times. Like while she was not impressed at first, she like later became impressed with him, like his knowledge of his job and all that.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
But this will be the new pop on tour. So we must be getting new music, I'm assuming.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And it made him feel a little good about himself, I guess, for the first time. But her parents, they were not impressed by him.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Exactly. Her mother, whom Jerry described as stubborn and independent and said it like an insult. I was going to say, oh, how horrible. Yeah. Yeah. She strongly disapproved of her teenage daughter dating a man in his 20s. And her father fucking loathed Jerry. I would. And Jerry later said he felt because he was older that he could decide what we would do, where we would go, all that.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
It's like, fuck you, Jerry. Yeah. You're a fucking creep. Now, the fact that Ralphine was still a teenager probably had something to do with her being attracted to Jerry in the first place. To her, he seemed more sophisticated than boys her age. And the fact that her parents hated him only made him more attractive. It always does.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Her age was also probably why she didn't notice any of the red flags. that an older woman might have picked up on. He was very jealous. He was very possessive, very controlling. So when Ralphine became pregnant early on, Jerry proposed that they get married, and she happily accepted.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And the way he later talked about it, he said, I wanted someone to sleep with and she wanted out of her home.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And somehow Ralphine later remembered things on pretty much the same romantic playing field. She said, while my home life was a good one, there was this feeling that getting married would be much better than listening to my parents.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
I'm like, so true love, guys. I see.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
You get mixed up with this asshole.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
They married in 1962. And a few months later, Ralphine gave birth to their daughter, Megan. Now, at first, Jerry and Ralphine's life together was actually pretty happy. It seemed like it was going well. He would lavish his wife and daughter with small gifts and attention. And as far as Ralphine knew, they were doing okay. Financially, everything was fine.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And even though Ralphine's attention was more or less dominated by the baby at the time, they even had a healthy sex life. Like it was a very normal, healthy sex life at first. Okay. But then things turned a little bit and things started making Ralphine uncomfortable. Like whenever they were at home, Jerry insisted that they both be nude.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Okay, that's strange. And also you have a child. Well, and that only stopped when Megan grew from an infant to a toddler. And Ralphine said it's not appropriate for us to be nude in front of our child. So it did stop. Okay. But he was not happy about it.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. Because he also is, like, requiring it. Right. Like, it's not like they both made this decision together that they're just like, that's what we do.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Like, it's just, like, some people... When they're at home, they like to be naked, I guess.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
No, this felt very much like it was him requiring it. Yeah. And she was probably happy to be like, okay, she's a toddler now. We need to stop.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Me too. Yeah. Well, there was also Jerry's constant need to photograph his wife while she was nude or while they were having sex.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Like, when I saw that they were going to be announcing something today – I sat with my little YouTube app up and they count down and I just waited for it.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
The black and white images were something Jerry could develop himself at home because he didn't know how to do that. Yeah. She was like, that was fine, I guess. Like, whatever. That's in our house. He's developing them himself. But then he wanted to take color ones that had to be developed at a lab, which meant other people would see them. Yeah. And Jerry was like, no, it's fine. This is normal.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
No one's going to care about it. They're not even going to blink an eye. But she said she never felt comfortable about it. She didn't like it. Which is not consenting. Right. And she said she was also not comfortable with what he would have her do in the photos at times.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah, like there was times like she didn't mind like the casual shots around the house of them just like living their life. But she said sometimes he would insist that she pull a nylon stocking over her face or wear spiked high-heeled shoes. And she just, she said it made her uneasy sometimes.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
It is not okay if your fetish is being forced on another person. Exactly. You need to be in an agreeing situation where that person agrees and is comfortable with engaging in your fetish.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
So she's like really being forced into it. And there's a power dynamic there too because he's so much older.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And after a couple of years, what had begun as a happy marriage started to kind of devolve into like a difficult, frustrating, and very confusing relationship for her. Yeah. And the more preoccupied that Ralphine became with their daughter Megan, because children require attention, the more depressed Jerry became.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah, he doesn't understand that why she's paying attention to her. And so he would leave the house. And when he left the house and spent a lot of time out of the house, he would engage in his own his old habits.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And like even when I see it, I'm like, oh, I know you guys are always like, here you go. But we also, and like this ties in, we went to the night fair this weekend because I went there with Wicked Good Books from Salem. And we did like a fun little meet and greet signing thing, like a very impromptu thing. It was really fun. And they still have some books and they ship everywhere.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And when they were at home, Ralphine couldn't help but notice that Jerry seemed distant and became very disinterested in their daughter, actually just ignoring her or pushing her away whenever she wanted his attention.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And later, Ralphine would wonder whether Jerry resented Megan for taking up so much of her time, and I believe that is it. Yeah, it sounds that way. He became more depressed, more unhappy when he was at home, and the more he isolated himself from his family and spent time outside of the house, the worse it got.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
So by the end of the 1960s, his ability to resist his darker impulses that we know he has inside of him, they were weakening considerably. Now, his path to becoming a killer was very long and very complicated.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah, and we're starting to enter the late 60s, but I mean, he's going through so many iterations of what his darker impulses are. And if you try to identify any one thing that pushed him over the edge into violence and brutality, I don't think you'd be able to figure out what it is.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
But we know that an event that happened right before things got really bad was the birth of his second child. Okay. And it was in late 1967. And so in Jerry's head somehow, he believed witnessing the birth of this baby would somehow absolve him of all the bad things he'd done and would set him on a better path. Okay.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
He said he just believed if he witnessed the birth of his child, he would become a better person. Okay. Which, like, that in and of itself is not, you're like, okay. I kind of get it. Sure. Like, why not?
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. So he made Ralphine promise that when the time came, she would have one of the nurses come get him from the waiting room and bring him into the delivery room so he could witness this. Yeah, okay. But when the time came, no one came to get him to see the birth.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And he tried to force his way into the room, but the hospital staff actually blocked him and said they were given explicit orders from the doctor to keep him out. So what the fuck happened there? So this obviously devastated him because he had this whole plan. And then he learned that it was Ralphine who told the doctors not to let him in the room. And so he demanded to know why she would do that.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Now, this is horrifying. So Ralphine explained that Jerry had always been so possessive and jealous of her that she thought it best that he not witness what happened during the delivery of a child.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
she said i didn't and this is the way she says this horrifies me to be quite honest so i want everybody to know a little bit of a trigger warning because this is a little graphic and gross okay the way she says this in my opinion she said i didn't want you to watch another man play with me um that's not what happens during birth no
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah, they still have some signed books. So Butcher in the Run and Butcher Games. So check it out. We'll link Wicked Good Books in the show notes so you can go to it if you want to grab one. But I got to meet a ton of people. And a lot of people, the amount of people who said you got me into ghost made my heart sore.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And what happened, Ralphine, that you are suddenly like, and I think it's like she is being conditioned into believing every part of her life is being sexualized in some way.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah, that's very dark. It's so dark. Like, so dark. And she told him this. Okay. So this marked a big shift in their dynamic. This this moment. Jerry had always had a disdain for women, obviously, but his wife was never included in that because she, according to him, had accepted and loved him in ways that he had never experienced before.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And it was because of that and her refusal that it was because of that, that her refusal to allow him into the room, he felt it was a huge betrayal. Like he took it as an immense betrayal.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. Yeah. Right. In his mind, I get it why he, where his mind is right now, why that would feel like a betrayal to him. Yeah. And obviously, like, there's many layers to this because it's her decision. You know what I mean? Like, that's her body.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. Her experience of going on. But I can see why in his deranged mind right now, where his mind is very rancid at the moment, that he had convinced himself that this was going to save him. This was his salvation, seeing this. And now she took it away from him. And now she, in his mind, took that from him. Right. So he's twisting it into something far worse than what it actually was.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And it sounds like she had every reason not to. Yeah, exactly. Why would she? You can see where both of them are coming from at this point. But my God, the statement she made about it haunts me.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yes, and it's being sexualized, which is...
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. A poor baby. It shows you though like their his upbringing and how fucked up he was about sex. Yeah. He imprinted that onto her through their marriage because she was young. Yeah. And it obviously is manifesting in ways like this.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And what's worse is that night after his child was born, after Ralphine had fallen asleep, he left the house and went into downtown Portland and drove the streets until he finally found a woman that caught his eye. So the night that his child was born, he went out. Wow. And he watched and followed the woman for hours as she went from one location to the next. Hours. He followed one woman.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And finally followed her home and watched her windows for hours until the lights went out.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
As soon as the apartment was dark, he crept into it and found her sleeping in her bedroom. And as she slept, he started rummaging through her closet, looking through her shoes. But he was noisy, and so she woke up and found this man in her fucking room looking through her closet. Uh-huh. So before she could even scream, Jerry was on top of her and had his hands around her neck.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
He claimed he had only intended to render her unconscious so he could do what he always does, find a light, go through her things, and leave. But as soon as she lost consciousness, he said he could not help himself, and he sexually assaulted her. And then he stole her shoes and fled her apartment.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And it gets weirder because after all that, that's what he did the night of his child's birth, his second child's birth, after the whole thing with Ralphine. And she's thinking after that whole thing, she's like, I thought it was going to go downhill. Our marriage really fall downhill. I thought we were done for. But she said, strangely, in the months following Jason, their son's birth...
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Jerry seemed to be getting better. And she said, and this is sad, she said, unlike his relationship with Megan, their daughter, which was distant and cold, Jerry was attentive and engaged with his son. Like, she was shocked. That's sad. When he was home, he would play with the boy and talk about all the things he hoped to do with him when he got older.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And it was like, obviously, John showed me ghosts like a couple of years ago. And it's so fun that now I'm like spreading the good word.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Whenever he went on errands, he insisted on taking Jason with him. And he even went out of his way to take on some of the responsibilities around the house. like, allowing Ralphine to have a little time to herself as a new mom.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Like, it's just like, what the fuck? But, of course, at the time, she had no idea that despite how he was making things look and how he was trying to put in effort at home, at least with one of their children, on the inside, he was just trying to cover up the feelings that he was barely keeping. Yeah.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Like he was still he had all kinds of shit brewing in there that he was just trying to shove down. It sounds like it. And it was only Jerry's nighttime activities that he kept doing because he kept doing this. He kept sneaking into women's houses, kept choking people unconscious, sexually assaulting people. It was only that that he claims kept him from exploding every day.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
So she's thinking he's just on the up and up. And he's doing horrible shit at night to keep himself from doing it during the day.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. And by January of that year, he finally lost all control.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
On the afternoon of January 26, 1968, he was out working in the yard when he spotted a young woman coming down the sidewalk. She was carrying what appeared to be a very large book under her arm.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
It was 19-year-old Linda Slauson, and she had only recently graduated from high school in Rochester, Minnesota, and she had moved to Aloha, Oregon to start her first job, which was in selling encyclopedias door-to-door. Okay.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Despite the long hours and a lot of walking involved, the company required their female sales agents to dress nicely and wear high heels, even though they walked to everything.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. So she was standing on the sidewalk in front of the Brudos house and trying to figure out which direction she was supposed to be going into. And it started to rain. So she, you know, she just wanted to get out of the rain to get, you know, set those books that she was carrying down.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
So she approached Jerry and said she was trying to find the address of a certain house where she had an appointment to show these encyclopedias. And she wondered whether it was his house she was looking for. Jerry looked her over for a moment, and he said he lingered for a second or two on her shoes before he told her, yes, come on in. Oh, no.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
As they entered the house, Jerry mentioned that his wife was having company upstairs, and he said, why don't we meet in my workshop downstairs to have some privacy? Oh, thank you. To go over this. So she went in the basement and she started giving her pitch on the encyclopedias and just making small talk with Jerry as she started to lay out all the products on the countertop.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Whenever somebody says it, I'm like, fuck yeah, another one down.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And it was dark in the room, so she was fumbling to find the right brochures and stuff that she was trying to show him. So he was like, oh, let me turn on the overhead lights. And he got up from his stool and went behind her. But instead of flicking on the light switch, he grabbed a length of two by four and swung it at the back of her head.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yep. Okay. Yep. He knocked her from the stool and sent her to the floor unconscious. And like we said before, since he had been an adolescent, a teenager, Jerry had fantasized about kidnapping a woman and keeping her somewhere and just doing what he wanted, even though he didn't know what he wanted to do. And now he had just taken a step to make that a reality.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
But we also got to meet one of my favorite people that I've ever met in my life. My favorite person I've ever met in my life. Chelsea.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
So he knelt down beside Linda on the floor and detected slight movement in her chest. So he wrapped his hands around her neck and began choking her until he was certain that she was dead. He choked her to death. Oh, my God. In the days that followed this, he dressed and undressed Linda's body, putting her in the undergarments he'd been stealing throughout the previous months.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And at night, after Ralphine and the kids had gone to sleep, Jerry would sneak down to the basement to rape her dead body and photograph her in various states of undress.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And it was so fast and so horrific. And... And then his kids are playing upstairs.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Fair warning... He's a brutal, sadistic fuck. So, like, fair warning for the rest of this. I mean, part two is going to get somehow even worse.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
But after a few days when Linda's body had begun to decompose, Jerry used a hacksaw to remove Linda's left foot, which he kept in the back of the chest freezer in the basement. What? He kept her left foot in a freezer in his home's basement. With the shoe?
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Chelsea from Alaska. Chelsea from Alaska. I said it too. I was like, Chelsea, this has been a shit week. It's been a real shit week.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Well, in the rest of the remains, he bundled up among some old car parts and threw them, according to him, over a rail somewhere into the Willamette River. And later, for reasons that remain unclear to this day, Jerry told investigators he, quote, didn't know where he disposed of Linda Slauson, but thought she was still alive when thrown over the railway railing.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
How would he think that if he choked the life out of her? Exactly. And spent days dressing her and undressing her and committing necrophilia.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. So it's just, he was a strange motherfucker.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
When Linda failed to return home that evening that she was killed, her mother Mildred reported her missing to the police and told them she'd last been seen in Portland where she was going to sell encyclopedias.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And her disappearance coincided with the disappearance of another local girl, a 14-year-old girl named Terry Chambers, whose parents speculated she'd maybe run away to join a quote-unquote hippie community in Washington. So Mildred Slauson insisted her daughter was not doing that. She had not run away. She had never given any indication that she was unhappy or wanted to leave home.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
But the two stories wound up being associated, and Linda's disappearance was just treated as she was a runaway.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And also when the parents are saying she did not run away, they do know their child. Yeah. Like you should at least take that into consideration. Mm-hmm. Now the photographs and souvenirs Jerry kept from Linda Slauson's murder appear to have been sufficient enough to keep his urges at bay for a little while.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
But by late November, the holiday period began and the Brudos household was full of Jerry and Ralphine's families. Yeah. And Jerry's stress began spiking. In the previous months, he would relieve his stress by looking at his pictures. Or, if it was particularly bad, he would go out prowling, steal some clothing from neighbors' clothing lines, like do the same old thing.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And found out I have to replace all four of the tires on my vehicle at the same time.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
But since the weather had turned cold, no one was leaving clothes on the line. And finding a new trophy meant that he would have to go inside a home.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Now, on the evening of November 26, 1968, 23-year-old Jan Whitney was on her way to see her parents in McMinnville, and her car broke down. It was on the I-5 freeway between Salem and Albany.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
That's weird. Now, a few miles before this, Jan had stopped to pick up two young male hitchhikers. So the three of them got out of the car when the car died and they were all looking under the hood. None of them knew what to do. So they were just like, we got to figure out what to do.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
So Jerry Brudos was on his way home from work and driving down the I-5 when he spotted all three of these people standing by the car. This is what's shocking. He spotted two men with her. Yeah. And he pulled off to the side and got out to ask what the trouble was.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And when he learned that the car had broken down, he said he'd be happy to fix it since he knew a lot about that stuff, but he didn't have the tools to do it. Instead, he said, I'll give all three of you a ride. So he did. He gave them all, he put them all in the car. And then he let the two men out of the car at the nearest off-ramp. Mm-hmm.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Which I was like, what the, so they could catch another ride.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah, take her. Maybe don't leave a girl in a car with a stranger. No, especially a girl that just gave you a ride. Mm-hmm. And he and Jan drove on to his house where he said he would get his tools and take her back to fix the car. When they got to his house, Jerry went to the front door, but was soon back at the car telling her the house is locked and I don't have my key.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
So we're going to have to wait for my wife to come home, which is a way of soothing her into like my wife is coming home.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. He told Jan his wife would only be a few minutes. But in reality, Ralphine had taken the kids to a friend's house and wouldn't be back for hours. Oh, God. And he knew that. So while they waited, Jerry got into the back seat behind the passenger seat and started making small talk. And he said, I said it was a funny thing to ask someone to close his eyes and try to explain how to tie a shoe.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Like that was part of their small talk. Like, oh, have you ever tried to have somebody close their eyes and explain how to tie a shoe? It's funny.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And he said, you know, without using your hands to show how when you can't see. And Jan was like, oh, okay. So she closed her eyes and started describing how to tie a shoe. And while she did that, he reached down and grabbed the belt that was on the floor in the back seat. And by the time Jan realized what was happening, it was too late.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
It was literally like, yeah, they're bald.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
He had looped the belt around her neck and pulled it tight, choking her. When the belt was securely tightened around her neck, Jerry got out of the car. And this is like an, I don't know why this like really chills me. He got out of the car and closed the end length of the belt in the door, tightening it even more and leaving it so that she would not be able to untighten.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Like it was a constant pressure. And then he went inside and to double check that Ralphine was really gone. And when he came back to the car, Jan was already dead. She had strangled to death alone in his car.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yes. So she was, he confirmed that she was indeed dead. And then he raped Jan's body. And then he took her out of the car. So in the car, in front of his house, he did that. Then took her out of the car and brought her down into the basement of the house and started photographing her in the various undergarments and shoes he'd stolen from the neighborhood.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
They're getting kind of bald. So that happened. And I was like, oh, awesome. We're just taking this right into the weekend. But then the night fair was so lovely and so amazing. And everybody we met was so, was such a fucking shot in the arm. Like it was such a cool experience. And I love the night fair. Salem just gives me, always gives me life. Just breathing the air in Salem gives me life.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Jerry repeated these acts in the following days, like dressing her, undressing her, taking photos. And then it would become clear that he would need to get rid of Jan's body. And he decided he wanted something more than photographs to remember the experience. This one's particularly heinous. I want everyone to know that.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
This might be something that you've heard about this case, but maybe you didn't know it was this case.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
He later said, I thought I could make paperweights out of her breasts. So he said, I cut off her right breast and I was going to make a plastic mold and then I could make lead paperweights. But I added too much hardener and it didn't turn out how I wanted. Oh, okay. Okay. Now he was going to be making paperweights out of a woman's breasts to use around his house. Uh-huh.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And he was expecting to just be able to do that. Yep. Which is shocking to me.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Exactly. Now, certain that no one would go into his basement workshop, because he always made sure that they did not, Jerry and the family took a short trip to Portland for a few days, leaving Jan's body in his basement. Dude, that's going to permeate the rest of the house. Yeah.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Well, and also, they were pretty surprised when they came back because they discovered that someone had driven a car through their garage door, leaving a giant hole where the door had been. So the police came out and they wanted to get into the garage, but it was locked. And he said that was close. And he ended up being able to get them away without them looking into the basement.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And even that wasn't enough to convince him to get rid of Jan's body. He still kept her? Yep. He wrapped her body in a sheet and hid her in the pump house while the police looked over the garage. Wait, while they were there? Yeah.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Then when the coast was clear, he took her body to Willamette River and weighted her down and then tossed her body in the river. Okay. Now, when Jan failed to show up at her parents' house in McMinnville, because remember, she was on her way to her parents' house. Right. Her father, John Whitney, reported her missing immediately.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And a day or two later, Jan's car was found on the side of the road with all the doors locked. And investigators were able to get into the car and found that there was nothing to indicate that she, you know, why she disappeared. And really, other than a camera found in the back seat in her bags, there was nothing of note in the car.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And police had a film in the camera developed and discovered photos indicating she might have had a flat tire that day. But that was really all they had. And it wasn't really a lot of help with a lead. It was just like, did someone help her? Right. And was that the person? But we don't have anything to go on other than that. Right.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And nearly a year passed between the murder of Linda Slauson and Jan Whitney. But far less time would elapse between the next killing.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And you would think that would be when there would be a year between murders, but he takes less time now. He goes right back into it.
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And that's where we're going to leave part one, because... I knew it, you bitch! Because we're...
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Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
part two is gonna get somehow even worse um this is all terrible he's a really really bad man he's a really really bad man and it's gonna be a lot so just please be aware of that i feel so bad for these women first these young women like and for his wife and children who were just living in their home while this was going on unbeknownst to them Yeah. No idea what's going on.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Just hit the shit luck of having him as a father.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. All right. Sorry about that, everybody.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
And then meeting everybody was just like the Salem Night Fair. That environment is such a fucking cool environment.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Chelsea, we kept Chelsea as a highlight on our Instagram because Chelsea forever. When I tell you this, the energy that Chelsea brought was unlike anything I have ever experienced before. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yes. They were all so lovely. And I was like, Chelsea, I've had such a shit week, including getting the flat tire this morning. And I was like, I think the universe rewarded me for putting up with this week with you. I think they were like, here's Chelsea. Yeah, I think so, too. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
That's going to be my New Year's resolution, is to just be more like Chelsea.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
It was amazing. And also, it's so funny, my nephew Aiden, who we've talked about a lot on this podcast, I think, he just texted me and said, in all caps, did you see that ghost is going
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
But yeah, so a wonderful start to the week. Not great last night. No, but it was the end. You know, my girly is feeling better this morning. So I'm hoping that that trends in the right direction. And we got two good bits of news this morning. So that was nice.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
See, the A-plus behavior today. Yeah. It's a great Monday. Yeah. And after this, I'm going to go downstairs. I'm going to watch more Bluey with my girl. Oh, fuck you. I'm going to watch Bluey by myself when I go downstairs.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
It's very calming. But before we do that, unfortunately, everybody, I'm going to take you to a dark place. Now, spooky season is never over here. Never. It's never over. But, you know, when we are in the official spooky season mode, we give you a lot of like the paranormal stuff and the strange history and the haunted stuff and all that. And now I'm going to rip you out of that with a bang. Okay.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
She's like, come on, get in the True Crime car. We're back in the True Crime car. We are doing a pretty big one today. Yeah. We are doing Jerome Brudos, the foot fetish slayer.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. You might know him as Jerry Brudos. I do. I didn't feel like we were on that level yet, but I probably will refer to him as Jerry because it's easier.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
I don't know why. I think I've only heard him as Jerry mostly. I think just because he's widely known as Jerry.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
If you've watched Mindhunter, they portrayed him in a horrifyingly accurate way on there.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah, it's the season of weird stomach viruses. So it has hit our households. And so I decided, you know, let's not spread it around to anyone else.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Oh, yeah. Richard Speck and Son of Sam. Yep. Like David Berkowitz. I was like, that's David Berkowitz. Like it's crazy. You brought him on the show. It's like uncanny. De-aged him. Like it's really scary. If you haven't watched Mindhunter, it's a brilliant show and it was taken away from us too soon.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
It's pretty great, but it's going to make you sad.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
I am so jealous that you get to experience it for the first time, but I have to warn you.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
It is, the first few seasons are literally like immaculate.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
You're really going to love it. I'm excited for you. Sorry, I just had to tell you that. But you know what? Back to business because this is going to be a rough one. Okay. Buckle up. Buckle up, everybody. So this is going to be two parts because there's just a lot going on. You're going to need a minute. So this takes place over the years of 1968 and very well into 1969. It was in Salem, Oregon.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Several women went missing during that time and would later turn up dead, all murdered horrifically and showing signs of being brutally tortured. At first, it seemed like they were never going to connect these women and they were never going to figure out what happened to them.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
But luckily, finally, investigators questioned the friends of one of the victims, who we will get to, and they finally came to identify their suspect and eventually arrested 30-year-old. He was like 30. 30 years old? Yeah, and when you look at him, you say, that's a hard 30.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
It leeches out of you. 30-year-old Jerome Jerry Brudos. Now, ultimately, Jerry was going to be convicted of the murders of Jan Whitney, Karen Sprinker, and Linda Sally. And his capture and the study of his mind actually ended up establishing what would eventually become the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit. Oh, really? So he was part of that whole thing. So it was a very important capture. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. It's hit one of my kids. We're hoping to contain it, but you know how that goes, everybody. So pray for us.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
So let's talk about Jerry, shall we? I guess. Unfortunately, we need to at least know what the fuck was going on with that.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
Yeah. I mean, I feel like it's rare that it's like a very nurturing environment. It is, yeah. But he was born January 31st, 1939 in Webster, South Dakota. He was the second born to Eileen and Henry Brudos. Henry, the father, he was kind of like, when it came to employment, he was very unstable. He would find work farming, you know, random odd jobs, but he wasn't very good at it.
Morbid
Episode 617: Jerry Brudos: The Shoe Fetish Slayer (Part 1)
So he would end up having to move his family around a lot. So they were never, they didn't really have a lot of stability there. Yeah. And at no point would the Brudos household be considered safe or supportive for those children. Henry was a very insecure man because, again, he was not good at anything he did. So, you know, what is there to be secure about, I suppose? You know?
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Hey weirdos, Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Because outside of this man, she has... so much worth. She does, you know?
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
See, in here, it's like... He's being clear. Yeah. This is clear. It's cruel to say... It's very clear what he's saying, but it's also like, so you were bringing her? Yeah, he had asked her. So it's like... And then said, never mind.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
We'll never understand it. But everyone got it. It's a bonus episode. It was on top of your regular episodes. It already happened for you. But guys, it hasn't happened for me yet. So can you tell me how it went? Okay. Everyone just commented on the eventual post that comes up.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Like, you know, it feels like it's flip-flopping a little bit.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
It's like, what? I'm not a doctor, but she seems a little manic here. Yeah, she seems like there's... I mean, clearly, because she's going through withdrawal symptoms, this is...
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
It went so well. It was great, Elena.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah, it's a little unclear, but she's focusing a lot of anger at Lynn. Yeah, and it's like, don't focus it on the gal. The other girl. Focus it on the guy.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I know I did. And Ash, you had fun too. You know what? Right now, I feel it now and I'm like, wow. You feel it coming. I had so much fun. It was fun. It was lovely. It was awesome. It was exciting. It was grand. It was so grand. It was incredible. It's something I... It was meteoric. It was meteoric. I like that. Yeah. It was great, I think. It was like a religious experience.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah, this has gone far beyond what it should have gone. Way far beyond.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Oh, yeah. She's dangerous right now.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
This is already very scary that she just like walked into his bedroom. Yeah. While he's sleeping. Yeah. And he's just going to flick the light on. That's literally my worst nightmare.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I'm going to be honest that I probably wouldn't be as nice like that. I'd be pissed. I'm a horrible person.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I think I would say worse. Possibly. I definitely. And if you're saying I'm going to like I was asleep. And you woke me up by walking in my room and flicking the light on and then just talking at me. And I tell you to leave. I'm going to sleep and you just keep talking. Yeah, I'm going to say shut up and go to bed.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
That's also how you know that she is very much not thinking clearly here. She's not all there right now. Because this is not... logical behavior.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
One mistress's stuff out. And that's fucked up.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
That's really fucked up. It's fucked up of him to do that and it's fucked up of him to have a woman that works for him do that to two other women.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
You know, I hope you guys fucking loved it. I know you did. Of course you did. Because I know you guys. And I know this is like right up your wheelhouse. I don't think it's up your wheelhouse. I think it's in your wheelhouse. I think that's how it goes. Could be both. I got weird with it, which is kind of on brand right now for what is going on.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Like, that's a lot of manipulation.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I don't know. This has escalated to a point.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Maybe shoes. But also, you gotta hum those shoes out a window to get them to go through. Yeah. That's the thing. I don't know if this was simple overshooting of the bed. I think it was humming as hard as you can.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Back it up. I'm not. I'm not. Yeah, I think in a week or so I can properly talk about it and mention what it actually is. And actually, to make sure that I can, because I want to be excited with you guys and you to be able to hear the excitement in real time, we're going to record the intro to that episode that comes out after it right after we record that exciting bonus episode.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I'm just, and obviously there's a little bit of a reason, I guess. I don't know why you would have the gun on your person.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah, I just think it's... Unless she had to valet possibly? I just think walking... Into his home. With a loaded gun. The way things have gone and the tense moments you have had together and, you know, this being, oh, the middle of the night where you're going to flick on his light and wake him up. I don't know if having a gun with you is sending the right message, you know?
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
So I feel like it's strange that she was able to just grab that gun out of her purse, but who knows?
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And then we'll get into the episode. So that we can properly capture... The state I'm in. It's going to be interesting. It is. I don't know if you'll be capable of recording anything after that. I'm very excited. Yay. In case you couldn't tell. But it's going to be really fun. You guys can look forward to it, I swear. And yeah, we have some good cases coming up. We got some good stuff coming up.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Two shots have gone off, correct? Correct.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Because, like, you just threw two in there?
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And I definitely wouldn't have extra bullets that I brought with me as well.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
You cannot buy a loaded gun. I didn't think so. In the United States.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I didn't think so either, but I was like, I don't want to claim that I know this for sure.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
This has been a ride so far, just in terms of...
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
That does not shock me because it needs a little work from that first one.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Okay. So she put the... She threw it in the glove compartment.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
That was my main question.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
That doesn't make a lot of sense. That doesn't make any sense. If he has climbed on top of her like she said. Yeah. Yeah. No, none of that makes sense. And the amount of bullets that were shot? Yeah. I don't believe her story.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah, to me it's, I mean, it's black and white there.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I mean, I believe that forensic pathologist.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Wow. Which it's like, I don't even know why that would come to play. I didn't even think of that as a possibility. I was more like, oh, it was in the papers. And then people have tried the diet. That's all I thought is like, he's a really popular doctor.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
That's a great last name.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
What? She had to know when to switch things over.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah, you're going to have, I don't think I can be convinced that you can accidentally shoot someone four times.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And which I, you do have to take into account that there's clearly some psychological break, chemical imbalance happening here, which obviously does not make it okay. No. But it does need to be taken into consideration with, like, what her state of mind was here.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I wonder if this was always going to be a murder-suicide. Yeah. And that she just didn't get to the other part. Yeah, I think that's highly possible. Either backed out of it or didn't have the time to do it.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
To me, this looks like a... A pretty cut-and-dry murder-suicide that was watched.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah, but, like, humorous, okay.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Unfortunately, yeah, it does.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah, they should have brought something in. I know, I don't know why they wouldn't.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Which you would have hoped would have kind of taken all that energy. I know. But it's not always that easy.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
What a twisty, turny... Damn.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
It was like, that's what it reads to me.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah, because she was like, who knows... how many bullets it's going to take to kill him.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And then I need one left over.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
So it just makes sense. You're not going there to take your own life with a purse full of bullets. No. I just don't get that. And a loaded gun. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
You know, like it was just.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
No, I don't think he deserved to die. I think it's like he he was doing what he had always done. And that's people had let him do it for a long time.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And then she kind of let him do it as well until she didn't.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And yeah, it's really, it's sad. None of that had to happen. No, literally none of it at all.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I know it sounded like such a great meet cute. A beautiful love affair at first. I was like, wow, I'm rooting for you two kids.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And her relationship with High is taxing on her mental health. Yeah. And it's like sometimes having that busy... Of like a professional life can like distract you a little bit, but it doesn't, you know, the second you come out of it, it all comes crashing down.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Like a woman? Is that what, like, what are you talking about? Cool. We wanted someone womanly. What? What? That's all? I guess. That's the requirement?
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid. Yo! Yo!
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah. I have feelings about diets for the most part.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I'm just like, why'd you do that?
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
That's all it is. It's like... But, girl.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah, she is. I feel... It's...
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah, and get the fuck away.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Metaphorically. I don't know. I like that.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I also, and just to flip this on its head, did she tell him this is a labor of love for me? I don't know. Because if you don't express that to someone, then they are going to look at it as a professional thing. Yeah. And treat it as such. If you don't express things to people, they can't read your damn mind. That's the thing.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
So there is that whole thing where it's like, yes, I'm sure it was a labor of love for her. But if you do not express that, no one's going to know it. Yeah. So you got to say it. Just to look at it from both sides. Yeah, no, it's important. He was paying her for the book because she did a service.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
That's the thing. I don't think there's a lot of communication. So it's a lot of assuming somebody's going to understand my intention here. Yeah. And that never works out. No, it doesn't. You got to be pretty upfront with people.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
So lots is up. Lots is up. Lots is down. Lots is all around.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah, and at that point, it's like if he is being clear that nothing is coming of this, you got to walk away. Then it does become on you that you're not letting it go. And I do think it got to that point. And that's the thing. It's like there's times when, and again, I don't know what the interactions were or anything like that. No, none of us do.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Because it's shitty when someone's pretending or alluding that there might be something there. Of course, that's going to leave you with a little string of hope. Of course. And when you're in that position of desperation and you love someone and you're, you know, all that, you're going to take anything as a little string of hope. So you don't know what kind of things were dangling in front of her.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
But it does sound like he was at least attempting to communicate that this is a transactional relationship now. And at that point, you need to do the work to get away.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Because it's been made clear. Yeah, it really has. It's just one of those things. If he's not making it clear, I get why you're hanging on to hope because when you're in that position, nothing's logical. Yeah. But it kind of sounds like it's being made clear. Yeah, and none of this is logical. Well, I was going to say, and even that's not logical. No. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I knew you were going to. You even did the all around with your head. Bring it around. Help. So once again, very cool thing that happened was hanging out with Anna McMahon. Wild. 16-year-old me. Screaming. Literally can't handle it. Screaming. But he's very rad, and it was very nice of him, and we appreciate him. Yes. And so a really, really cool thing as well has already happened for you guys.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And from behind, Jim heard a crack and a bullet grazed his right arm.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
He made it to the kitchen, and he flung the refrigerator door open, hoping to shield himself, but another bullet struck him in the left elbow, shattering the bone.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Yeah. So he grasped at the counter for a knife or anything he could use to defend himself, but he didn't find anything, and instead he just charged at Herb. who simply sidestepped and then turned and shot Jim again, this time hitting him in the back. And the bullet this time tore through his lung and sent him crashing into the stairs.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
So Jim struggles and gets himself up. Now his lung has been like... Like, a bullet went through his lung. He gets himself up the stairs in order to warn his wife. Oh. He heard the crack of the gun again as he's trying to get up the stairs, and the bullet struck the door jamb above the door and, like, exploded the wood.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Now, Joan had been showering when Herb arrived, and the noise of the water blocked out all the chaos downstairs.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
So when she opened the door and stepped into the hallway in a towel... She was shocked to see her husband now stumbling towards her. Blood was pouring from his left side and streaming out of his mouth. Oh my God. He managed to shove Joan back into the bathroom and slammed the door and yelled at her to lock the door. As he's bleeding to death. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And he like shoved his wife into the bathroom to like protect her. Oh my God. And from inside the bathroom, Joan heard the gunfire two more times. One bullet hit Jim in the stomach and the second went through his back and struck his heart and killed him.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
No idea who this man is. Now, from inside the bathroom, so Herb could hear Joan hysterically sobbing from inside the bathroom.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
We're coming up on our 666th episode.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And so he just broke down the door with his hands and feet, just kicked open the door.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Yeah. Once inside, he aimed the gun at Joan and fired three times quickly, hitting her twice in the neck and once in the face just above her left eye.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
He was never fully confident that a gun was sufficient for the purpose of sacrifice. So he decided to take out his hunting knife that he had with him too and stabbed Joan in the back three times, once for each bullet.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
He then collected the shell cases from the bathroom floor.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Yep. And from the hallway. And then proceeded downstairs to collect the rest of them. And he stuck the gun back into his waistband. And then he noticed that a button from his coat was missing. But he was like, eh, whatever. And he just left the house. Good. Now, back at the Francis house, remember Kathy, who originally opened the door, I would like to give a quick trigger warning.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Back at the Francis house, her two children had woken up, and Kathy was doing her best to get 9-year-old David and 4-year-old Damon ready for the day. Yeah. 9-year-old Damon had had a cold the last few days, and he looked like he was going to be staying home from school one more day. So she went out into the yard and found some kindling to get the fire started in the stove.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
She had just put down some breakfast for the boys when she heard a knock at the front door. When she opened it, she was looking down the barrel of Herbert Mullen's gun. Oh my god. Kathy didn't even have time to say a word before Herb fired the gun and hit her straight in the head. Killed her immediately.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
He stepped over her, and he entered and closed the door behind him, and he thought he was going to find a husband or a boyfriend in the house, and he realized that he heard voices, but they were children's voices. So just to just to be clear, remember before he was saying that he was considering like how morally wrong this felt and he wanted to find a morally righteous way of doing this.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
I don't know what happened here. He didn't stop to think about, you know, the moral implications of killing children here because he simply raised the gun and fired twice and hit both of them in the head, killing them instantly.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And we got some good news yesterday for the near future.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Then he walked around and stabbed each of them with the hunting knife to make sure that he had properly sacrificed them.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Yeah. Now, unlike the three previous victims who had yet to be linked, investigators immediately suspected the Gianneras and the Francis's had been killed by the same person because there was a personal connection between the victims and similar circumstances under which they had been killed. Yeah. Right, it happened so quickly. Right. Right.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
oh yeah some some good good things not me being like what you're like what's she talking about what did we learn yesterday yeah yeah wonderful things so that there's you know i'm looking forward to that oh we watched um a very interesting movie on scream this is just a random thing to tell you guys because in case you haven't listened to scream over here ash picked it so good
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And a press release the following day, Sheriff Doug James stated there appear to be drug overtones in the case. And when they did finally locate Robert Francis, he was ruled out immediately as a suspect. Yeah. Now, not wanting to cause panic, Santa Cruz police captain Dick Overton urged residents to, quote unquote, keep cool. Stay cool, man. Babe. Just stay cool. Don't be all like uncool.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And he said, just go about your daily lives as normal. Keep cool. Two families have been slaughtered, but like. Yeah. Keep it chill, man. And also he said, this is not a case of somebody running amok and shooting people.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
This thing has a pattern to it. It's not a case of some crazy man running around shooting people. No, that's literally exactly what it is, sir. And what basis do you have to state otherwise? So since the murders of the Ota family two years earlier, we talked about them in part one.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And the recent disappearances of a local, a number of local college girls. Thanks to Ed Kemper. Santa Cruz residents had started arming themselves. I would. Which Overton knew increased the potential for an accidental shooting to happen.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
But while his desire to avoid, you know, like panicking the public and having some accidents happen that could have some real consequences, he was very wrong because this was one of the rare incidences of someone, quote, running amok and shooting people at random. This literally was. Yeah. Now, the more time that passed, the more kind of like adept Herbert got at justifying his murders.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
He was able to convince himself that, which shows you also that he was doing some real mental gymnastics here to make it. Yeah. It's like you just shot and killed two kids. What are you doing? Exactly. An investigator's inability to connect the crimes only served as further evidence of his divine purpose in his mind. Because he's not getting caught. Exactly.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
By February, he had stopped taking drugs altogether and replaced his drug use with long hikes in the mountains around Santa Cruz. Which...
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
my goodness i wish you had done that your whole life yeah just do that instead literally take a hike yeah take a hike now on the morning of february 10th he went out for a hike in henry cowell state park just off highway 9 not far from where lawrence white's body was discovered and these hikes he said gave him time away from his parents you know gave him peace gave him a little quiet made his head feel clear why the fuck were you doing this forever
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
So he loved these. Like, this was his moment of, like, peace. Yeah. So he was very irritated when he came across four teenagers camping in the woods that morning.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Yeah, how dare they do a thing they're allowed to do. In nature. Like what? Yeah. The teens, 18-year-old David Olicker, 18-year-old Robert Spector, 19-year-old Brian Scott Card, and 15-year-old Mark... Drabelbis, I believe is how you say it, had come to the area a few days earlier and they'd been living at like, like they'd made themselves like a little lean to. Oh, okay.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And when he came upon them that morning, he was absolutely disgusted because he saw a bunch of trash around the large tent and he intended to speak to them about it. So his initial thought was not to immediately kill them.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Which is also interesting. Or so he says, right? Well, he doesn't initially. Like this isn't the first thing he does. Okay. So he stands outside the tent and he coughs loudly to get their attention. And so they all made their way out of the tent and he tells them you're on public property and it's illegal to camp here and you're polluting the woods with your garbage. Okay. Pick it up.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
So they are teenage boys. So they mocked him. Yeah. which only made Herb angrier with them. So he told them he was a park ranger and he was giving them until the next day to clear out the area or they'd be arrested. Okay. Which is so weird. Yeah, that is weird. You know, so he left the area and he continues his hike, but he just couldn't get this interaction out of his mind.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And I think it's worth throwing it over here in case you haven't been listening to Scream. You should. It's fun. Go listen to Scream. What the hell are you doing? Caleb's a goddamn hoot. A hoot and a half even. He's a hoot and a half. A hoot and a half. And, you know, we take suggestions for movies and we also pick our own. It's a lot of fun over there. We don't take it too seriously.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
This is where the, like, the illness comes into play, I feel. Yeah. This is just me, like, speculating, of course, from afar. Because it feels like he had, like, a moment of clarity of just being, like, a curmudgeon there and just being, like... Like, you dumb kids. What are you doing? And he was leaving. And then as he's leaving, it's like it clouded again.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And neither will you. nobody will but it's really fun so go go listen but if you haven't yet and you're like what are you talking about ash her pick for the movie um last week was a movie called hellbender it was so fun it is such a cool movie i'm looking up the girl on tiktok who recommended it originally it's kate it is feral pisces
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And it's like that rain cloud set upon his brain and was like, no, no, no. Like, you need to be rational here. So it's very interesting to see how this all played out. Yeah, it's like an urge that he just can't fight against. Yeah, it's very strange. So he can't stop thinking about it. In his head, here he is doing everything he can to protect the world from this impending natural disaster.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And these teens are just throwing garbage all over the place and then mocking him when he shares his concerns about the environment. What the fuck?
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Under a normal circumstance, you would be like, yeah, that does suck.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
If he was like a regular Joe, you know, you'd just be like, wow. Damn, what a shitty day. Yeah, you'd be like, man, like, wow. But him, you're like, fuck you, dude. Yep. So at first it occurred to Herb that he could just go back to the campsite and kill them all. And then he was like, you know what? I can't do that because this would be a personal grievance and not keeping with my mission.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Wasn't the last murder a personal grievance? Thank you. You're welcome. Because Jim was the first person to give him a joint, which he considered the beginning of all this. Which is a personal grievance by definition. Yeah, like that's not part of your mission. Maybe he was feeling...
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
some type of way about that yeah i think he's just um scattered a lying sack of shit and i think that he by his own admission he knows how to convince people of certain things knows how to convince people that he's okay to be let out of a hospital Well, and remember... Knows how to convince people to let him in the military. He was really smart. He's very smart.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And he's very manipulative. Yeah. He admitted it himself. That's how he got out of the hospital. Like, hospitalizations every time. Multiple, yeah. So this, to me, feels like...
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
him later being like oh well this is why i didn't do it to make it seem like i'm still under that fog of like i have a personal mission like trying to make sure he stays in that narrative yeah but he forgot that he had fucked it up already like i think this is one of those like oops gotcha gotcha yeah yeah Because that makes no sense. No, it doesn't.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
So over the course of the afternoon, he kept obsessing over this interaction, slowly convincing himself, of course, that while he had, you know, it had been a bad interaction with him, with these kids, the fact remained that they were polluting the planet. So sacrificing them to him felt like it made sense. He eventually convinced himself that this was okay. Okay. Okay.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
So later that night, he came back under the cover of darkness, came back into the park. Damn. He hiked back out to the campsite and approached it. He wanted to catch them off guard. This is so scary. Because they probably thought nothing else after he left. They forgot about him completely, I bet. Like that just wasn't even a blip on their radar.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
But the fire was still burning when he found the camp. And inside the tent, he could hear them chatting and laughing with each other. Yeah. So armed with a .22 caliber pistol, he approached the tent and started unfastening the snaps that held the flaps closed. Oh, my God. He startled them, obviously.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And as soon as the tent opened, none of them had a chance to say a word because he just started firing.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
and all six shots hit their intended targets each of them got hit in the head oh they all crumpled to the ground in a literal pile of bloody bodies oh that's awful and they're all these are young kids oh yeah they're teenagers and it's like they're in a pile now in this tent with down feathers everywhere because he shot through pillows tattered sleeping bags like what an awful scene
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
So after shooting the boys, he went through their pockets and took whatever money they had on them.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
What did that do? I thought this was all for like higher moral purposes. And then he just tossed their wallets on the ground and left. And oh, he also grabbed a rifle that he found in the corner of the tent because he said they didn't need it anymore.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Very innocent people. Chosen mostly at random. Yeah. Since then, his mental health had deteriorated considerably. And it seemed like no matter what he did, the voices in his head were there, just demanding more. Supposedly.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Because I too follow Kate on TikTok. We love a feral Pisces. That's her TikTok handle is feral Pisces. She's great to follow.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Just three days after killing the boys in Henry Cowell State Park, he was out for a drive in Santa Cruz when the voice came into his thoughts again, demanding another sacrifice. This is according to Herbert Mullen, by the way.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
It's ridiculous. Sorry, go ahead. No, don't worry. Just needed to say that. I'm glad you said it. So he's driving through Santa Cruz. He hears a voice saying, you need to make another sacrifice. And at first he said he thought about resisting. But instead he just pulled a U-turn and headed back into a quiet neighborhood that he'd just driven through. Oh.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
As Herb drove slowly down the street, he spotted 72-year-old Fred Perez. Are you kidding me? He's just standing on the sidewalk. He was a longtime resident of Santa Cruz. He had once been a successful heavyweight prize fighter.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Before retiring from boxing and using his winnings to go into business for himself.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
As a truck driver and a fishmonger. His businesses were successful. He was able to provide for his family. And then finally he passed the business down to his kids a few years later. Aww. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
I think it's got, like, the DNA of, like, that kind of vibe. Yes. You know, like, it's a very unique story. Uh-huh. The people who make it are, like, a family. So they have, like, a really unique story. And I think they're, like, the Addams Family, literally.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Like, their last name is Addams. And, uh... They're really good at what they do. I think they do a great job, and I think they tell stories really differently. It's fun. There's another movie that they did. I can't remember. Where the Devil Roams, I think it's called.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
That we're going to cover next week on Scream. I'm excited for that. Yeah, I'm very excited about it. So again, this is literally just us being like, hey, this is a cool thing that we thought we would pass on to you. So if you're looking for like an interesting, really spooky, really cool movie. Like something you've never seen before.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Yeah, that's just going to make you go, huh, what the fuck afterwards? But like in the best way, Hellbender.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
His testimony was often unfocused, very incoherent, frequently contradicted himself, you know, that kind of thing. For example, when asked why he killed the four young campers in the woods, he said, quote, I had been arrested in 1968 for camping in possession of marijuana, and it bothered me that they should get away with it. I'm sorry, what? I thought it was the polluting. Yeah.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Like, what are you talking about? And at no point earlier did he say they had marijuana on them. No. And it's like, now you're saying that you were annoyed that they were allowed to camp there and you got in trouble for it, so you killed them?
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Yeah, like, hello? Yeah. And in that way, he said he was enforcing the law. No, that's not how the law works actually at all. But then only a short time later, he said something different about it. He said he, quote, received a telepathic message from the young men saying it was all right to kill them. So he did.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
weirdly a beautiful story it is yeah like not but yeah but yes but yes at the end so give it a shot i just thought that was like a fun little little thing yeah good call you guys you know we're always trying to tell cool stuff i want to watch that movie again i do too it's great but unfortunately we have to talk about this shit stain i know but at least like i feel he gets apprehended in this part
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And he tried to come up with a reason for it.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
On August 19th, the jury deliberated briefly before finding Herb guilty on two counts of first degree murder and eight counts of second degree murder, effectively removing the question of diminished capacity from the case. The jury appears to have recognized that he definitely struggled with mental illness. No one is disagreeing with that.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
But they believed there was sufficient evidence to suggest he knew what he was doing and he knew that it was morally and legally wrong.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
He got rid of the whole friends. He got rid of children because he knew they could point and say he showed up at my door. Right. Like, come on. In a statement to the press, Herbert Mullen's attorney said he felt the jury had not wanted to find him criminally insane because he might end up being released at some point in the future.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
He told reporters, if a man found innocent by reason of insanity went to a hospital and was never going to get out, I think we'd have a lot more insanity verdicts. I don't think that's the case. I think they think he knew what he was doing was wrong. And baby girl, why don't you look up the definition of legally insane? Exactly.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Like, don't sit here and try to say, like, they just don't want him to get out of prison and get out of the hospital. It's like, no, we're just looking at the definition of legally insane. And depending on the jury, like, that is just such a cop out.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Like, fuck you. Like, you failed. Well, and also just days after the verdict, jury foreman Ken Springer wrote a letter to the governor expressing his outrage that no one had intervened to prevent this loss of 13 lives. Like, no one had intervened in Herbert Mullen's life and made this stop. Yeah.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
He wrote, I hold the state executive and state legislative offices as responsible for these 10 lives as I do the defendant himself. None of this need ever have happened. And he cited his multiple hospitalizations and releases as missed opportunities to keep a killer off the street.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Yeah. He wrote in the letter, according to testimony at his trial, Herbert Mullen could and did respond favorably to treatment of his mental illness. Yet the laws of the state certainly prohibit officials from forcing continued treatment of his illness. And I have the impression that they, as a matter of fact, discourage continued treatment by state and county institutions. Probably.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Which, like, all right, Ken. I know. Like, good for you writing to your governor and being like, fuck y'all. Like, these 13 people didn't have to die. More people need to do shit like that. Yeah, because it's like there's a this is a failure on many levels. Herbert Mullen was ultimately sentenced to life in prison and sent to Mule Creek State Prison and loaned to serve out his sentence.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
He tried many times to gain parole, but he was repeatedly deemed unsuitable by the parole board and denied. While at Mule Creek, he corresponded regularly with supporters outside the prison. That's absolutely fucking bonkers. And even attempted to find a wife. Did he? No. Good. In 1987, he placed an ad in the Scotts Valley Banner. Why is that allowed? And he wrote, seeking an Irish wife.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And he described himself as 40 years old. I'm 14 years in prison. I desire to sire children now. No, thank you. You killed children.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
I know. Also saying sire children is fucking nuts. I gotta go. On August 18th, 2022. Yeah, recently. Herbert Mullen died of natural causes at the California health care facility in Stockton at 75 years old. Unfortunate. It's very unfortunate.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Very, very unfortunate. I hate that he got to live. I do too. Because also he outlived Fred Perez and that makes me angry because Fred was 72. Yeah. I'm like, fuck you.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Well, you always have to see what they look like, too. Yes, that is a trip. That is a trip if you look him up.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
should he be able to take a class and you know maybe better his mind a little bit exactly but like that kind of thing but putting out a personal ad like really we're trying to do that like come on no absolutely not ridiculous
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
He came off almost clean cut. No, literally. Yeah, he did. You know, like he very much was. It's actually interesting that they called him the hippie killer. Because he doesn't look like a hippie. So he's called the hippie killer, I think not because he's the hippie in this scenario. For killing hippies? While he had some hippie ideals, he also had disdain for hippies. Oh, okay.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
So I think this is like a double-edged sword here.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Yeah, he was very confused. Yes. I would say. Yeah. And what we'll see with Herbert Mullen, too, is he is mentally ill, obviously.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
But he is not insane. He knows what he's doing.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Yeah. And we will see instances where he covers up things or makes sure he takes bullet casings. Right. He doesn't have diminished capacity in the sense that he doesn't know what he's doing is wrong. Yeah. So you can hold on to that as like, fuck this guy. Yeah. Yeah. But the last we talked about him, he had, you know, he had killed Mary Guilfoyle. He had killed Lawrence White.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
He had killed a literal priest in a confessional. Yep. And he is now wondering whether he is doing things correctly. That's quite a time to ponder that. He's wondering if he's, you know, if this is the mission he's supposed to be taking. And so he starts, and he's also thinking like, okay, I don't think I'm stopping an impending disaster from happening.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Hey weirdos, I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
So when we last left you, I said that he was also, the voices in his head that he said were in there included his father's voice at this point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was now considering whether he could find a more morally righteous way to continue this mission of his. You've already killed three people, so it's a little too late. There's no, like, turn back now. Well, and also, like...
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
The mission is to sacrifice, so there's really no morally righteous way to do that. No, there's not. What he was thinking in January 1973 was that he could join the military. Oh. So he tried to convince his father to allow him to join the military, and he submitted an application to the U.S. Marine Corps.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
In Martin Mullen's mind, which is his father, the Marines would give his son some stability, some direction, help him grow out of whatever phase he was in. It's not a phase, Dad. It's not a phase, Dad. But from Herbert Mullen's perspective, the military is kind of ideal for him because he could, one, make his father proud of him finally.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And he could also continue what he saw as his important work, saving the world, because he would be in an environment where killing wasn't just permissible. It was kind of expected. Yeah. So he figured that was like the way to make this better. Okay.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Now, having talked to so many doctors in the previous five years or so, he had become really good, and I mentioned this in part one, at like anticipating what people wanted to hear, you know? So like he could, he knew how to work the system. He knew how to get out of stuff. So the initial paperwork and interview phase flew right by. Like he killed it.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
But when it came to the criminal record and drug history part of it... He couldn't talk his way out of that one. Yeah. Can't talk your way out of your own past. No. His criminal record showed several interactions with law enforcement, many of which ended with hospitalization. And he was still actively using drugs, which was going to show up on drug tests. It usually does.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
So in just a matter of weeks, his plan to turn his whole life around and manage his responsibilities, it all fell apart. But... Although there was really only one person to blame for not being accepted into the military, he obviously wasn't going to blame himself. He wasn't going to accept his responsibility in this. So this just became yet another paranoid delusion that the world was against him.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
You know, it wasn't his behavior that had caused him to be rejected. It was society's conspiracy to prevent him from the greatness that he was destined for. Totally. So he wasn't just disappointed with this. He was pissed. That's not great. Now, in Herbert Mullen's mind, it wasn't just the universe that was conspiring against him, but it was the drugs. The drugs were conspiring against him?
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Well, they had clouded his mind for years, and he blamed marijuana worst of all. Which is wild work.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
No, no. In his like wildly warped logic, he reasoned that smoking pot was what led him to make his bad choices. Okay. Yeah. It was the pot that was responsible for his bad relationship with his parents. And most importantly, it was what led to so many hospitalizations. It was totally that. Just the pot. Just that. Okay.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
So, but again, like his rejection from the military, he couldn't take responsibility for his drug use over the years. It wasn't him who had decided to do this. Instead, he was like, I'm going to place the blame on the person who started me down this road in the first place. Yourself? So a little before 9 a.m.
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Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
on the morning of January 25th, Kathy Francis was just barely awake, just starting her day when she heard not a knocking on her door, but like a tapping. Oh, I hate that. A very light tapping. And she wasn't expecting anyone. It was the morning. So she was like, excuse me, what?
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
She was not happy. So she opened the door and she found a slightly disheveled Herbert Mullen standing in front of her. She kind of knew him. Like, she barely knew him. But she just kind of recognized him by sight, essentially. So she tried to be a little polite because, like, she was kind of like, you know. I think I knew you. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
He had actually come looking for Jim Giannara, who was the former occupant of this house and the guy who had first given Herbert Mullen his first joint back in high school. Okay. Yeah. Wow.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
We have been roasting each other all day. The whole week, really. And it's not just me roasting Ash. Ash is roasting me back. Guys, somebody come get her. She being mean. Nothing has happened since the last time we recorded.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Well, Kathy explained that Jim hadn't lived in the house for a few months and then gave him directions to Jim's new house because he thought he was a friend. Yeah, of course.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Kathy knew who he was like a little bit. Like a complete stranger. Yeah. And like she was like, oh, you're looking for your friend. He kind of made it seem like I'm looking for a friend.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Like, OK. And she was like, oh, it's like a few blocks away. He lives in a different house and then just closed the door and went back to bed. Now, Herbert Mullen got back in his car and drove the seven miles to Jim and Joan Gianera's house on Western Drive.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
This couple had bought the house sometime earlier and had finally finished renovations and were able to move in a few months earlier. Unfortunately, since then, Jim had struggled to find work and they'd run out of money.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
So that January, they'd been living without electricity.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Yeah. Now, like Kathy Francis, Jim hadn't been expecting anyone that morning. So the knock on the door was a little bit of a surprise. It had been a while since the two of them had seen each other. They went to high school together. But Jim recognized Herbert Mullen immediately, but didn't invite him inside. And out of nowhere, Herbert just said, I'm really pissed about the time I've been wasting.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And Jim was like, sorry, sorry about that. Like, OK, like he was just confused. Like what? And before Jim could say anything back to him, because what the fuck else? What was he going to say? The phone rang. And so he's like, excuse me, I just have to answer the phone really quick.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And he went in to answer the phone and Herbert walked in the door and closed it behind him. Now, Jim hung up the phone and turned around and was like, what the fuck are you doing in my house I didn't invite you in? Yeah, you can't just walk in here, dude. And he was about to yell at him to leave, and then he noticed the revolver in Herbert Mullen's hand, and he turned to run.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Hey weirdos, Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Like a bunch of blue plastic cups, used paper towels, and a copy of USA Today from two days earlier. Huh. And the address label was still on the USA Today. Oh. When they scoured the shoreline, they also found a blue bed sheet and a pair of men's underwear. Okay. So a lot of stuff. Yeah, that's a lot. A lot of stuff.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
So investigators ran the victim's fingerprints and identified him as 71-year-old Morris Black. Okay. Morris Black was a resident of Galveston. He did have a criminal record, but it was just minor offenses. People who knew him... They didn't have the kindest things to say about him. They called him gruff. They called him short-tempered. He was very demanding, that kind of thing.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
They didn't call him like he was this horrible monster. It was just like he was kind of like a grumpy older dude. Kind of like, yeah, short-tempered. A Galveston business owner said of dealing with Morris Black, no matter how busy we were, he would break in and demand that I stop everything and see him. Yeah. And Black's sister, Trudy, kind of gave a similar description.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
She said of her brother, if he had a disagreement, he'd go protest. He'd march in front of the building. He could make enemies. Oof. So he had a little bit of a reputation. So investigators were like, all right, there's probably at least one person that might have wanted to hurt him. Right. But the more they interviewed his neighbors and acquaintances, they realized that it wasn't that, like...
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
He was like a bad guy. And it's not like, they really didn't find, they were like, I don't think he would have attracted a killer. He seems like he's just kind of like a, like a nuisance. Yeah. Like he just kind of, he rubs people the wrong way.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
It didn't seem like he was pissing people off to the point of like, you could have attracted somebody like that. Yeah. You know what I mean? So when their interviews with friends and acquaintances turned up nothing, investigators visited Morris Black's home. And that was the address that they had found on the USA Today copy.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
When they arrived there, which it was a fourplex on a quiet street, and investigators took a look around the outside of the building, just look for anything, basically. And inside one of the trash cans, they found an empty black garbage bag that matched the bags that Morris Black's remains were discovered in.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
They also found the packaging for the drop cloth found with the body and a large amount of paper towels that matched those found in the bags. And they found a bunch of other items that connected the apartment building to the murder. So a search of the second trash can turned up even more evidence. I mean, it's crazy. Including a .22 caliber pistol and a spent shell casing. Whoa.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
And a receipt for an eye exam addressed to one of the residents, Robert Durst. whose address was across the hall from Black's apartment. Okay. Now, according to the landlord, Klaus Dillman, no one by the name of Durst, Robert Durst, lived in that building. He said, no, the person in the place across the street, the hall from Black...
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
that there's a, quote, nice middle-aged lady named Dorothy Sinner.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
So the landlord told detectives that Sinner had lived in the apartment since 2000. Apparently, they had moved in about a month after Morris Black and the woman had never caused any problems. Okay. And they were like, I don't know what you're talking about. But Dillman did add that it wasn't Sinner herself who had rented the apartment, but her brother-in-law.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Her brother-in-law had made all the arrangements over the phone because Sinner had some kind of condition with her larynx, so she could not speak.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
In fact, he said in the few times when Sinner and him had communicated at all, she had done so through handwritten notes.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
And finally, Dillman said, yes, he had met the brother-in-law once and had seen him on a few occasions, and he never actually... Seen the two of them together, actually. Weird. Strangely. Meaning sinner and the brother-in-law. Strange. When investigators searched Black and Sinner's apartments, it was clear they'd found the crime scene.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
In both apartments, there was blood on the walls and floors, as well as a blood trail leading across the hall from one apartment to the other. Well, that'll tell you. Yep. In Sinner's apartment, detectives found a four-inch paring knife and a pair of bloody boots. Oof. They also discovered blood outside the apartment building in the parking lot.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
I feel good. I feel like I'm getting stronger. And it clears your mind. It does. But you kind of zone out for a little while. It's a great way to start the morning. Especially super early because we do it before even like anyone, my kids wake up. So that's nice because it's like then I'm fully awake and ready to go by the time they come Rolling down the stairs.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
And one of the other tenants, Maria De Hernandez, told detectives that on the night of Morris Black's murder, she had seen a man loading black garbage bags into a silver Honda in the parking lot, and she didn't recognize that man. That's terrifying. So as crime scene technicians processed Sinner's apartment, what they found painted a very strange picture of who lived there. That's weird. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
But when they pulled up the tile on the floor, they found a large amount of blood had seeped through and soaked the boards underneath. Analysis of the blood would prove that it was Morris Black's blood. Now, based on the statement from the neighbor, investigators ran a check for any vehicles registered to Sinner's address that matched the description of the silver Honda.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
And they learned that Robert Durst had registered just such a vehicle there. When they showed Klaus Dillman a photo of Durst, he acknowledged that he looked like the man he'd assumed to be Sinner's brother-in-law. Imagine that. But more importantly, he also bore a pretty striking resemblance to Dorothy Sinner herself. Strange.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
In fact, the more Dillman looked at the photo of Durst, the more he was like, Oh, that is actually him. Like that is Robert Durst. Dorothy Sinner is Robert Durst. Wild. Can you imagine? Robert Durst had lived there how many years? Did you say four? I think, yeah, at least like he had moved in right after or Dorothy Sinner had moved in right after Morris Black. That's wild. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Which is kind of crazy. The handful of interactions Dillman had had with Dorothy Sinner had all been quite brief and really, like I said before, only through notes. Yeah. So it had never occurred to him that Sinner could have been anyone other than who she was saying she was. Yeah, why would you think anything else? Why would you question that?
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Given what they'd found in the apartments and the information collected from witnesses, it was clear to investigators that there was no Denton Dorothy Center, and the main suspect in the murder of Morris Black was Robert Durst. Okay. Now, a few days later, on October 9th, a patrol officer spotted the silver Honda and pulled the driver over.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
When the officer asked for ID, the driver handed him a Holiday Inn Express hotel card with the name Jim Truss.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Yeah, obviously this was not what the officer was asking for, so he was like, hey, step out of the car, and he placed this man in custody. When the officer searched through the vehicle, he found a bag of marijuana, a 9mm handgun, and a bow saw similar to the one purchased with the other items days earlier. Not day-to-day travel items. Not day-to-day travel items.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
At first, investigators suspected this was the saw used in the dismemberment. But when the autopsy was complete, the medical examiner actually confirmed that whoever did the dismemberment had used a paring knife to cut away the muscle, then used a hacksaw to remove the limbs. Oh, my. Now, this man that was arrested on the side of the road was Robert Durst. That's crazy. Yeah, right? That's wild.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
You didn't see that coming, did you? No, no. Not at all. The arrest of Robert Durst for the murder of Morris Black came as a surprise to just about everyone, particularly because Durst hardly looked like the kind of man who was going to shoot another man in the face. He really didn't. Then dismember his body. No.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
But as investigators started looking into his background, they discovered he was unlike anyone they had investigated before. They were like, wow, we definitely did not know that this is what was lurking underneath. So let's talk about Robert Durst. Who the hell is this man? What is going on? He's lived a thousand lives. None of them good. None of them good.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Oh, it is very, very recommended. If you can get yourself up before your kids in the morning just to give yourself, even if you don't have to do anything productive, you can just sit. Oh, yeah. If you want. Just sit in the silence. I'd argue that's productive for you. Watch something on TV that you never get to watch because no one... you don't get the TV.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Robert Alan Durst was born in Manhattan on April 12th, 1943. He was the oldest child of four children. His parents were Seymour Durst and Bernice Herstein.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
That is a great name. Like his father before him, Seymour Durst was a wildly successful New York real estate developer and partner at the Durst Organization, which was a development firm recently valued at $8.1 billion. Casual. Very casual.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
What's something your moms always wanted to do? Get into painting, write that novel, make the perfect croissant? Whatever it is, this Mother's Day, you can finally help her achieve it with MasterClass. Our parents were our first mentors, but who did they look up to? Maybe Wolfgang Puck. Ron Finley, RuPaul, give them the gift of learning to the people who taught you so much with Masterclass.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Whether you're showing love to your parents or yourself, nothing compares to the gift that can change your life for the better. When I got into Masterclass and took Joyce Carol Oates' Art of Storytelling class, I learned that sometimes you have to kind of dive into the dark parts of yourself to write some good spooky stuff. Our parents helped us expand our horizons. Want to return the favor?
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Give them the gift of Masterclass. I use this and you should too. I was trying to figure out how to write for a younger audience. I'm kind of looking into writing a spooky children's book. So I took R.L. Stine's Writing for a Young Audience class and it really helped me to like bring it down to a level where it can be spooky, but fun and palatable to a young audience.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Our listeners always get great discounts on Masterclass of at least 15% off any annual membership on masterclass.com slash morbid. See Masterclass' latest deal at least 15% off at masterclass.com slash morbid. masterclass.com slash morbid. Damn. So, yeah. Yeah. So like Seymour, Robert's mother Bernice also came from New York's elite class and filled her days with social activities.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Like just even having just that hour, even just an hour before your kids wake up, I'm telling you, it makes a difference.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
She was a lady who lunches. She did like charities, luncheons.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Very Emily Gilmore. Yes. Bernice and Seymour married in 1940, and in the 10 years after that, she gave birth to the couple's four children, Robert, Douglas, Wendy, and Thomas. Now, tragically, on November 9th, 1950, Bernice fell to her death from the roof of the family home in what was later deemed an accident by the coroner. Hmm.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
According to the press, Bernice had gone out on the roof for unknown reasons, and someone called police and fire department to rescue her. But as the firefighter was climbing the ladder to reach her, Bernice insisted she could get back inside on her own, but slipped on wet leaves and fell to the driveway below, which is horrifying. Yeah, that's really sad.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Seymour told investigators that his wife had been in treatment for asthma and had taken a sedative that morning, and later that day she had seemed confused and unlike herself. The family consulted a physician who recommended Bernice stay in bed to rest, but later that afternoon, she climbed out the window onto the roof in her bathrobe. Oh, man.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Despite the official report of an accidental death, there are many reporters and New York socialites who believe Bernice had been profoundly depressed and had possibly intentionally ended her life.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Now, this is people speculating. Yeah, of course. Obviously, we do not know that. Now, following Bernice's very unexpected death, the Durst children understandably struggled to adjust to life without their mother. I can't imagine. Particularly seven-year-old Robert. Oh, so little. He claimed to have witnessed the fall.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Seymour responded to the loss of his wife by just retreating into himself and becoming very consumed with his work. Which you can't when you got four little ones to take care of. When he was at home, he would often just disappear into his study and bury himself in books in order to just avoid all of it. Avoid all the feelings, everything.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
The new reality in the Durst home meant that the children were, for the most part, now being raised by nannies and other domestic workers. Yeah. Which is like a big change for them. Yeah. Your mom's there one day and then gone the next. That's awful. And now you're being raised by like people who aren't your parents.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Yeah. Now, as he grew older, Robert Durst developed a quiet and mostly shy personality. He performed pretty, you know, adequate in school. He had a few friends. His life was pretty unremarkable, like nothing crazy. Which, honestly, that's pretty remarkable in and of itself for someone who came from such wealth and privilege. The fact that it was just kind of a chill life.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Like a pretty casual existence. That said, he seemed to develop some quirks that people who knew him found a little unusual. He is. That's one way to describe this man is quirky. Very quirky. According to his childhood friend, Julie Baumgold, she said, quote, he spoke with a drawl. Long pauses punctuated his speech as if he were struggling to spit out the words.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Now, and he does have a different way of speaking. Yeah. For sure. Despite being strongly introverted, Robert tried to fit in and was a member of many clubs, including the camera club, the Spanish club, and being a member of the junior varsity soccer team. Trying to just like be one. Yeah. With everybody. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
After graduating from high school, Robert went on to study business and economics at Lehigh University and intended to go into real estate, like the business, with his father. Things changed, though, once Robert joined the anti-war movement that was growing on college campuses across the country.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
While many young people became activists during this period, Robert's decision to participate didn't really sit well with his dad. His dad insisted his son take his life and responsibilities more seriously. But by then, Robert had become fully involved in the counterculture movement and wasn't interested in whatever his father was trying to tell him what to say. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Now, this shift in his priorities during this period definitely was a major change. This marked a major change in his personality, too.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Most of his life, he lived up to his father's expectations and incredibly high standards. But now that he was away from Seymour Durst, he began developing his own identity. And much of that identity was going to be rooted in opposition. He told a reporter, Yeah. Now, it was at UCLA that Durst met one of the more important influences in his later life, 21-year-old Susan Berman.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Despite their attraction to one another, Robert and Susan never became a couple. Instead, they formed a very tight, close friendship. They bonded over their almost unique personal histories, basically. Like Robert, Susan came from a prominent and wealthy but pretty troubled family. But unlike Robert, Susan's father's wealth had come from questionable means.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
In 1947, the mob-affiliated David Berman took over the Flamingo Hotel after its previous owner, Bugsy Siegel, was shot to death by an unknown gunman in his Beverly Hills home. I heard of Bugsy. So, yeah. That's high up shit. Yeah, that's some shit. So Robert and Susan would remain close until her death in 2000, but it turned out that graduate school wasn't exactly where Durst wanted to be.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Oh, yes. Speaking of reading. You got some stuff to tell us? We're recording this well ahead of time because, you know, life. But so by the time this comes out – I think we'll have a whole new ecosystem coming about by the time this comes out. Absolutely. I'm just kidding. But by the time this comes out, the paperback of The Butcher Game is going to be out and available for pre-order. I'm excited.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
After completing a portion of his program, he dropped out of UCLA in 1969 and went back to the East Coast. But he still wasn't interested in joining the family business. Instead, he, I mean, by now, he's fully immersed in the counterculture lifestyle. So he moved to Middlebury. That's in Vermont. And he opened a health food store. So he went fully the other way.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Also, my youngest calls Vermont Vremont. And I love it. And every time I see it, I think Vremont.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Now, the thing is, for this, it looks like he's like totally... you know, rebelling against the idea of the family business. He's going to Vermont. He's opening up a health food store. It was entirely bankrolled by his father. Of course. So it's like, it's not like he's going out on his own. I can't stop saying of course. Yeah, of course.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Now, as far as Seymour Durst was concerned, the store was a waste of time. But at least Robert was directing his energies towards business and was moving in a more, what he considered to be respectful direction. Okay. The store, which was called All Good Things. I love that. I would go there. Right? I mean, it sounds cool. Who wouldn't try a store called All Good Things? Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
It reminds me of the Stephen King book, Needful Things. Yeah. But it's not the same. So the store, All Good Things, was opened in a Durst-owned building, and as a condition of giving his son the money, Robert had to be responsible for the property, which included acting as a landlord to the building's one tenant, Kathy McCormick.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Now, Robert first met Kathy in late 1971 when she moved in and pointed out a number of things that needed repairing. And he was immediately taken by her. Like, immediately.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Robert wasted no time asking her for a date. And after going out just two times, he asked her to move into his house. And she agreed and moved in in January 1972.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
I won't have to fix the shit. So while Robert and Kathy's relationship was going well, things at the store were not. At the same time, Seymour Durst had begun encouraging his son to close up the store and return home to join the family business. If nothing else, Robert would be able to make much better money, which would allow him to support Kathy and Seymour hoped their family to come.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Perhaps he was swayed by the money or the thought of an easier life, but Robert finally caved. and went in with his father's demands, and he and Kathy returned to New York in early 1973. And a few months later, on April 12th, Robert and Kathy were married. Nice.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Now, initially, Robert and Kathy moved in with Robert's brother, Douglas, and his wife, and their newly built home in Katona, which is about 60 miles outside the city. The house was massive. It was spacious. Definitely more than enough room for four people. But Kathy quickly started feeling uncomfortable there.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
According to one of her college friends, the home was more than adequate, but she just hadn't expected things to be so tense, she said. Apparently, Eleanor Schwenk said, the two brothers fought, bickered, and constantly needled each other. So that's uncomfortable.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
And after Kathy made her feelings known about this whole thing, the couple moved out of the house and into the Durst organization's most expensive apartment, which was a penthouse on Riverside Drive, and it had panoramic views of the Hudson River. Okay.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
It's amazing. So now that they've moved, they're much happier in their new apartment than they had been living outside the city. I mean, it's a penthouse, honey. It's a penthouse. And Robert and Kathy settled into their new lives. She was a nursing student and he was a real estate developer at the time. Yes. A friend, Gilberta Najimy, said, they were earthy, downright regular people.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
I thought he was a caring, loving husband. I know Kathy was in love with him. That may have been true, but it didn't take very long for the shimmer and shine of their marriage to wear off a little bit. For Kathy, the idea of marrying someone from an incredibly wealthy family was exciting. Hell yeah.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
It not only meant that she could finally have, you know, all the things she ever dreamed of having as a child growing up in a middle class home, but it also meant that she was rubbing elbows with famous and very influential people. That's fun. What she hadn't counted on was Robert being so modest in how he lived. Not fun.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
It will be out officially on August 12th, I believe. I'm excited. But you can pre-order it now. It's so early I don't have a link, but we'll try to throw one in the show notes. So the link is in the show notes right now. Check it. So do it. Pre-order it. Everyone loves a paperback. The paperback is nice.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Or that all those famous and influential people would be more interested in him than they were in her. That's tough. Yeah. But most of all, Kathy didn't love how much time Robert spent with Susan Berman. I probably wouldn't either. Yeah, who moved to New York in the mid-70s to work for Us magazine. Okay. Oh, very cool. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
With much more free time on her hands than she'd had before, Kathy enrolled in medical school and started making friends of her own.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Yeah, that is weird. Just like a weird coincidence. That is very strange. Right? Sorry. Yeah. No, I was like, oh, wow. Had to veer off there.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
But by the end of the 1980s, the once happy couple were now leading lives that appeared to be going in very different directions. Robert wanted things to stay exactly as they had been, with Kathy always being available to him whenever he wanted. That's not realistic. Kathy, on the other hand, complained that, quote, they were living well below their means. And she aspired for more.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Also, Robert's jealousy and his possessiveness had become like pretty intolerable, which I totally, like, you can only take so much of that. Yeah. He wanted to be the most important person in his wife's life, often at the expense of all her other relationships. That just can't. Singular focus. That can't last. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Kathy's brother Jim said, at first I liked Bob, but then as the years went by, he said that he seemed not just uninterested in being a part of Kathy's family, but also pretty resentful of having to see or even acknowledge them at all, which is a big problem.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Yeah. Finally, by late 1980, Robert and Kathy's marriage had just started falling apart. And a few months later, she hired a divorce lawyer and confided to several of her friends that Robert had been physically abusive towards her. Throughout 1981, Kathy started working with her lawyer to file divorce paperwork and continued working to finish medical school at the same time.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Jeez, that's impressive. What about us? By the end of the year, she was just a few months from earning that degree. Then in January 1982, Kathy Durst disappeared without a trace. She was months away from earning a medical degree. Oh, that's awful.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
On the morning of January 30th, 1982, Robert and Kathy drove from Manhattan to Truesdale Lake in South Salem, where they were planning to spend the weekend at their vacation home.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
By then, the marriage was definitely in tatters, and Robert had hoped that maybe they were still able to save things if they, you know, took some time to work on it, got away from what he saw as their problems, from the chaos, the constant social stimulation of the city.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
I mean, at this point, you're looking at it and you're like, I don't know if you really could have rebounded from what was going on here.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
There's really no rebounding off of that. Yeah. Because again, like you said, Robert had become physically abusive at this point and Kathy had moved out. And there was really not a lot between them besides like bitterness and... Resentment. Yeah. And anger. Which is, makes sense. So like, what was this gonna do?
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
But the following day, Kathy knocked on the door of their neighbor, Ruth Mayer, and asked if she could borrow a hat and a scarf because she had forgotten to bring hers and she wanted to go for a walk. Yeah. Later, when asked about the specifics, Ruth couldn't recall whether Kathy had mentioned if she planned to go for the walk by herself.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Now you need the paperback. A paperback is good. You can throw it in your bag. Yeah. You can bend it if you want to. She might get mad at you. I won't get mad at you as long as you don't bend my copy of it. Okay. Fair. Which is fine because I don't lend it out. I never lend out books.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
She said, as Kathy began walking away, she called out to say, Ruth did, she called out and said she was having some friends that evening and suggested that Kathy stop by. But Kathy had other plans.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
The last time Kathy Durst was seen alive was that evening, January 31st. It was at a dinner party thrown by her friend Gilbert Najimy. Earlier in the afternoon, Kathy had called Najimy and said, I have to get out of the house. Can I come over? Oh, no. She arrived a short time later and appeared very distraught. Najimy said she was always nicely turned out. The things she wore were always nice.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
But that afternoon, she apparently showed up wearing red sweatpants and looked as though she hadn't combed her hair in days. It was obvious she was in some sort of trouble. Now, towards the end of Robert and Kathy's marriage, friends and family had definitely started to suspect that things were really bad between this couple.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
But that afternoon, Jimmy got a much more detailed account of just how bad it was. It had started when she was starting to go to medical school years earlier. Okay. A signal that, you know, to Robert that she was becoming more independent. Now, a real man in a like a real man, a real human, a real partner would think that's great. Yeah. And sing your praises.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
And sing your praises and encourage you. But no, Robert was like me. You're not going to need me. The abuse started gradually. First with just some like really biting remarks, you know what I mean? Like discouragement, just like the verbal kind of stuff. Then it elevated to threats of cutting off her tuition payments.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Like, you know, using the financial thing against her, like the whole like this is my money kind of shit, which is like that's when it's already done. It's like not when you're married. The physical abuse soon followed. At first, friends recalled Kathy occasionally mentioning Which, like, she just, like, mentioned that Robert had slapped her. Oh.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
But I can't imagine one of my friends saying that casually. No. And me not going to their house and taking care of that. But by 1981, the term slapped was hit with, was replaced with hit. Implying much greater force and aggression was happening. In the last two years of their marriage, the cruelty Robert directed at Kathy definitely got worse. He openly carried on affairs with other women.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
What a pig. Including an affair with Mia Farrow's sister Prudence. Oh, shit. And threw them in Kathy's face whenever he wanted to hurt her. That's... Yeah. At the same time, his drinking and drug use had increased, which only exacerbated his volatility. Yup.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
At one point, when Robert thought Kathy was having an affair with a mutual friend, he violently assaulted the man, breaking a bone in his face and sending him to the emergency room. Jesus Christ. But remember, he is carrying on affairs. Yeah, and that's totally okay. She can't do anything about that, right? No.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
In early January, Kathy called a friend after a particularly bad fight she had with Robert in which he had hit her multiple times. Her friend, Eleanor Schwenk, insisted Kathy go to the hospital in order to get the assault documented. If nothing else, you know, just to get it on the record. Yeah, it's on paper. And Kathy finally took her friend's advice.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Just a few weeks before her disappearance, the documentation of the assault would have surely been included in the divorce proceedings.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Yep. And would have likely swayed things in Kathy's favor. Yep. But that wasn't all Kathy had on her side either. Just a few days before she disappeared, Kathy told friends she had discovered some potentially embarrassing financial information related to Robert. and the Durst Organization, and she had planned to send it to someone high up in the company. Oh.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Don't ever tell people about that stuff. You got shit, you just send it. By no means is this, like, her fault. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying, like, that's so scary. Yeah. Blackmail is scary. That kind of information is scary.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
She was not specific about the details of the information, but she heavily implied that whatever it was, it was going to be very damaging to Robert and the Durst family. Ooh. So as Kathy talked to Najimy that afternoon, their conversation was repeatedly interrupted by phone calls from Robert.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
He screamed at his wife, he demanded she return to South Salem, and the last time he called was a little past 7 p.m., and the couple argued for a few minutes before Kathy hung up. She told Najimy, Bobby wants me home. He's really upset. Don't go home. So she grabbed a few things she had with her and walked to the door.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
But before she left, she turned to Najimy and said, if something happens to me, check it out. I'm afraid of what Bobby will do. My God. She literally said that.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
is so heartbreaking and to say with full like your whole chest if something happens to me look into it because it's probably him like like to know that in your heart that like they are capable of that and not like potentially they could do that but that i don't know how to get out of this like that's awful holy shit it's awful in this her saying that this is the last time anyone other than robert durst saw kathy durst wow
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Four days later, on February 4th, Robert Durst walked into the 20th Precinct on West Street in Manhattan and reported his wife missing. Four days later. To Detective Michael Strzok, the timing of Durst's report was a little suspicious. Yeah, what am I saying? According...
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
According to Durst, he had last seen Kathy on Sunday night when he dropped her off at the train station to return to Manhattan alone, which meant Robert had waited four days to report his wife missing. Weird. Durst explained to Strzok that it was not unusual for Kathy to work three or four days straight in clinical training.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
So, ding, ding, ding, we're going to use her going to medical school against her even when she's gone. Yeah, totally. We're going to be like, well, she's just so busy, she'll be gone for three days. Yeah. No. That doesn't make any sense. No. But he said he hadn't thought she was missing until that day.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Still, Strzok couldn't help but notice that for a man whose wife had been missing for four days, Robert didn't seem particularly shaken up or overly emotional about it. Yeah, because he doesn't actually love her. He seemed very straightforward. Here's what's happening. So for Detective Strzok, the case only grew more and more curiouser and curiouser in the days that followed.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
I like that you scratched your chin. I did. You guys couldn't see it, but I did the chin. She did.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
That was great. In his early investigation of Kathy's disappearance, Strzok found two witnesses who claimed to have seen Kathy on February 1st, the day after Durst claimed to have dropped her off at the train station. The superintendent and the doorman at the couple's Riverside Drive apartment.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Later that same day, someone identifying themselves as Kathy Durst called the associate dean's office at the medical school to say she was terribly ill and wouldn't be making it in. So remember, we're talking. He just said, someday she's in clinical training for like three days straight and I can't get a hold of her. Oops. She wasn't. So she definitely wasn't.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Exactly. That's what I wonder. And it's here that the trail goes cold, though, at least in terms of law enforcement. For Robert Durst, things were only getting started. By the time she'd gone missing, most of Kathy's friends and family were aware of how bad their relationship was deteriorating. And a lot of them knew about the extent of Robert's abuse.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
That's why Robert's performance of the alarmed husband in the wake of her disappearance seemed so fake. Disingenuous at best, and at worst, it was coming off suspicious. Yeah. Like he was totally, it was coming off the opposite of how he was trying to. Right. The week after he reported her missing, the New York press picked up on the story, and everyone was clamoring to interview Robert Durst.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
In the meantime, he'd hired a private detective to track down his wife, who he firmly believed was still alive. He told a reporter from the New York Post, she was going to graduate medical school in three months. That's what makes me sure she's not hanging out at somebody's house.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
You're just trying to embarrass her and make her sound like she runs away from you and yada yada. So whatever concern Robert showed for his missing wife in public was all but absent in private. So it was very clearly an act. When he spoke to her increasingly worried friends, he didn't come off like he gave a shit at all.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
When Robert finally spoke to Jimmy a few weeks later, he said, by the way, Gilbert, have you seen Kathy? And the tone was casual as though he was asking after an old friend he hadn't seen in a long time. Not his actual wife. Not his wife who had mysteriously disappeared. Yeah. Remember, we're talking a few weeks later. He sees a friend and he's like, hey, by the way, have you seen Kathy? Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Like what? Like she's been missing for weeks. And he just says it like in passing. Like you're talking about like, oh, like have you seen my, like that's so weird. Like have you seen that coat that I wore the other day? I can't find it. It's so fucking strange. He creeps me out. So he's just asking, he's acting so fucking weird about this. Like so fucking weird.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
And within a few months, he had retreated from the public spotlight and never gave another interview or spoke publicly about Kathy again. He also stopped returning Detective Struck's calls, which only made the investigator more suspicious.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
And in the few months that had passed since she was initially reported missing, the supposed witness sightings from the doorman and the superintendent proved less certain than they had been. When Strzok re-interviewed them in the spring, both men confessed that they'd really only seen her from the back and from a distance. So neither could be certain.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
By somebody. And we're going to end it there because we're going to do two parts of this. The second part is going to have even more strange stuff in it. Yeah, there's a lot to follow in this case, so I do think it's a good idea to break it into two. Yeah, there's a lot of names, there's a lot of stuff going on, and there's a lot of... A lot of jinx-y stuff going on. Yes. Of course. Of course.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
We'll get to that whole thing, the of course heard around the world.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
August. Fall! I feel fall in my bones already. No, let us get through the summer first, okay? You know what I'm sick of? What are you sick of? I'm sick of any time. Every year I get to this exact spot and I say, I need fall. And you know what I hear from everybody? Let us get through summer. I'm not stopping you. I'm not stopping a whole season from coming and going.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
I'm not putting some kind of magic into the air that makes it stop. You are putting magic into the air. I'm just saying, man, I want fall. You know you're manifesting. Because John does the same thing. He's like, let us get through some. I'm like, I'm letting you.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
I mean, I never want to leave New England during the fall and kind of refuse to. I know. We're just stating our wants now. So there's that. So that's my want. The hurricane season actually works in my favor.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
You can't yell at me anymore. You already yelled at me real big. Because I'm not stopping summer. I'm just going to talk about fall also summer. That's the thing. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Now, what did you say at the beginning of that sentence? The whole time that we're enjoying summer. We're still enjoying. You're still enjoying summer. I can talk about fall and everybody can still enjoy their summer. This woman.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
We're not allowed. But speaking of, you know, things that you don't know, I have nothing. I don't have a way to segue. It has been too many past recordings because I've lost my ability to segue. I thought my coffee almost came through my nose. No, I don't have anything. I don't have it. I thought it was going to, you know how sometimes when you don't have something to say. You just keep going.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
You're like, just talk and it'll form itself.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Not here, though. That didn't work. It doesn't always. So I'm just going to go right into it. What we're going to cover today is the crimes of Robert Durst. Of course. Not Fred Durst from Limp Bizkit. Different. He just wants to break stuff. He does. He wants to break stuff. But we're talking about the jinx. Of course. Of course.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
If you've watched the documentary, The Jinx, I highly recommend you do it. It's fascinating.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Wow. Bitch, check me out. Impressive. Thank you. Yeah, I immediately put it on a playlist when I watched it. So good. It's a really horrifying documentary. It's scary. It's upsetting. But it's fascinating. It's all that stuff. And they caught that very infamous... Clip. Chitter chatter. In the bathroom. In the bathroom on his hot mic there.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
And at one point, the way he says, of course, in that clip, he's like, of course. It's like a very specific way he says it. And Ash says, of course, like that. But not intentionally. Not intentionally. She just, that's how she says it. She'll be like, oh, like, yeah, I'll drive, of course. Like, she just says it. It just, like, naturally happens. And every time she says it, I'm like, okay, Jinx.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Like, I can't stop. So that's just in my brain right now. Of course. But let's get to the very beginning. Because I think a lot of people know the Jinx documentary. They know the name Robert Durst. They might know a little bit about it. But, like, this is a really scary case. It's involved. He's a very scary man. Yeah. He did a lot.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
So we're going to start with the murder of Morris Black, which is a very gruesome, very sad thing. Yeah. So on the morning of September 30th, 2011, David Avena set out for Galveston Bay for just to, you know, just to go fishing with his kids. He had his 13-year-old son, James, and his 8-year-old daughter, Elise. They were really just like, this isn't like a big thing.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
They were just going out to kind of like hang out together, lazily fish. So they set themselves up on the shoreline. They just put their lines in the water and just sat down and waited for fish to bite. That's how it goes. That's how it goes. So somewhat bored with this whole thing, though, the 13-year-old James.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
He was like, I'm just going to wander down the beach a little bit because I'm just staring at a fishing pole right now. And at 13, you don't want to do that. Yeah. So he goes down the rocky beach and he hears his father calling him back because he was asking him to come help reel in some of the lines. Oh, shit got excited. Shit got excited when he left. That's what that's what always happens.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
It's true. In the fish bite. Exactly. So as James wandered back to his father and sister, he saw something in the water and he saw something floating and he was like, huh. So he just stared at it for a couple of seconds, kind of trying to like reconcile what he was looking at.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
And he said it was just like a pinkish blob, but he was like, but he was weird. It was weird looking. It just didn't look like anything he had seen before. And then it dawned on him and he said, oh, I'm pretty sure that's a piece of a human body. Oh. And he's 13. That's awful. Like no kid should have to see that.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, we're doing some yoga in the morning. We're yoga girls. We're yogis.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
So James yelled to his father and he said, there's a body over here. But David Avino was like, yeah, he's definitely joking. And he's probably trying to get his sister all freaked out. Like that's very 13-year-old boy to do. So David dropped what he was doing and ran over to James.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
And he was expecting to see, you know, maybe an animal in the water or something like inanimate just floating in the water. But it was not an animal and it was not something inanimate. David Avena had been a surgical nurse. And so he was very well versed on the human body. What are the odds? And yeah, right?
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
And he immediately knew what was floating in the bay had definitely once been part of a human body. Oh, man. Specifically, it was the trunk portion of a man. Oh. But the head, arms, and legs were missing. Damn. Which must have been horrifying to see. Yeah. So he led his kids back to the car and immediately called the police, and they arrived on the scene a few minutes later.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Now, the remains were removed from the water, and while they were doing that, police and shore patrol agents were fanning out across the beach, looking for any additional evidence, any more remains. And several hours into the search, long after the sun had gone down, investigators found about 80 feet offshore, three garbage bags containing more of this victim's remains.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
A short time after that, more bags were found down the shore, and those contained the rest of the man's remains.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
According to the technician who performed the autopsy, the remains were that of an elderly white man in his 70s. So sad. You make it to 70 years old. And that's how you go out. The cause of death was a .22 caliber gunshot wound to the face. All indications were that the dismemberment had occurred post-mortem. Okay. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
More interesting than the remains themselves was that there was a lot of other stuff mixed in with these remains. There was a lot of pieces of garbage, basically. Cash register receipts for garbage bags, a drop cloth, a $6.99 bow saw. In the bags, they also found bloody towels, one flip-flop, one shower shoe, a piece of tan fabric.
Morbid
Episode 615: Vampire Talk with Doug Jones
So please tell the children that Billy Bill H. Woodson loves them very much.
Morbid
Episode 615: Vampire Talk with Doug Jones
We continue to find ourselves at an impasse. I'm declaring a mistrial in this case.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
Sometimes I feel like I'm in a bog. Yeah, don't we all, man? Do you ever feel like you're in a bog?
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
Oh, absolutely. By a bog body. I don't want any peat moss anymore. I want all the peat moss. That checks. Like, that's awesome. I'm going to call my landscaper after this and be like, hi.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
I want to call someone and say that. Just call a landscaper.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
I was going to say that sounds pretty.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
I'm looking at her hair right now. Amazing, right?
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
Whoop, there it is. We are here. And you didn't forget your name this time.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
What? I'm like, you guys think this is a demon, and you're like, hey, let me get a piece of that.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
Yeah, like what is up with this speech?
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
I was on a space level. I was going to say, I don't think you've ever been on an ash level. Truly. Truly don't think I ever have. Most people have.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
So cool. I was like, this is really cool. It is. I was like really into this.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
Wouldn't it be so cool if like eventually we got I mean, I don't want to get like too many of these bodies, of course, but we have so many of them.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
although who likes i thought you were like doing a poll really fast like hey guys who likes cranberry juice i also kind of was i was gonna be like show of hands do you like cranberry juice he that boy loves cranberry juice and like not even cranberry juice cocktail like regina george like yeah cranberry juice that's a lot for me yeah cranberry juice is It's very aggressive to me. It's tart.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
So if you fail to become a king, they...
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
You've got to expose your bosom. So kings are just whipping their servants up. Kings are just horny is what's happening. Kings are wily.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
They're like, you won't even have nipples when you're a ghost, motherfucker. I'm saying.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
Very tart. Yeah. This is so yuckas, but I used to drink it when I was constipated when I was little. I got constipated a lot when I was little. And my mom would just give me some cranberry juice. So now I hate it.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
Yeah. Oh, that shit. That shit makes you shit. That shit'll work.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
He also sounds like a liar, too, though, because they said that. I think he killed her, obviously. But he said he put her in the garden and they didn't find anything. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
Interesting. I wonder if that was like a symbol of something back then.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
Yeah. But, like, not the, I mean, this is pretty random shit, but. It's very random shit. But to make a big deal of this, it's interesting from what you've, you've told me, like, a little tidbit. Yeah. These are whole ass people. Yeah, and in fact... Oh, sorry, I interrupted.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
Mama's getting nauseous over here.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
Oh, I'm sorry. My tibia still hurts.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
You know, when you get that, like, if you hear like, oh, it hurts.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
Like it's so crazy. And just like the weird like chemicals and like.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
So I hope that you guys enjoyed it too.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
And we also hope that you keep listening.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
I love that you think of that because as we know, I think of cranberry juice, but like the two ocean spray guys. Oh yeah. Whatever happened to them? What happened to them? I don't watch cable anymore, so maybe they're still there.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
If I had seen that on a library shelf, I would have been... That is for you.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
Are we going to do like a couple parts?
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
Yeah, when I think bog, other than like my guys in the cranberry bogs, my ocean's for men, I also think of swamps.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
You were like, Pete is what we're talking about here. And I was like, well, I was not up to speed then. Pete, P-E-A-T. I'm going to take a seat.
Morbid
Episode 623: Fan Favorite: The Violent Deaths of Bog Bodies
And then is it like a darker copper if they had darker hair? Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Hey, weirdos. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about a place where the darkness never ends. Wondery Plus. It's like stepping into a haunted mansion where the floorboards creak with ad-free episodes and early access to new episodes lurks around every corner. So come join us if you dare. Morbid is available one week early and ad-free only on Wondery Plus.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Like it has nods to the formation of the Bureau of Investigations, which is like blowing, that blew my mind. Just like being in a place that you're like, oh, that didn't exist yet. Like, fuck. And it was also like the end of the Spanish flu that they have a nod to, the beginning of prohibition. I think all those things being tapped at during this really placed you in that time.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
really advanced given the tools that they had at the time yes absolutely we're always talking about that how in these time periods it's like we don't have a camera on every street corner we don't have someone with a phone recording it we don't have a digital footprint we don't have this and that like fingerprinting was still in its infancy you know it took a lot to solve these crimes which makes it more fascinating in my opinion yeah for sure
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Because it's like, how are they catching these people with literally just like boots on the ground detective work here? Like, that's what this is. And, I mean, and also, like, speaking to how they were able to solve this stuff, one of the great themes in this whole thing is women not being passive and seeking out answers.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Damn. Cause she was also the one, first of all, she wouldn't let anything. She wasn't letting that go in the beginning. She was like, I'm pretty sure he's having an affair. Fuck him.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
ignore everything and put it on the back burner she was a product of the time yeah i was just gonna say society was influencing her big time and being like maybe i should just have a baby with him and we can have that you know classic family and i'll just ignore everything you know what fixes a toxic relationship yeah that'll fix things well and like to to prove your point even further like to add to it
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Exactly. And be like, girl, you did it. And while Kat, in the actual case, she didn't team up and go to the extents that she went to in the title, it wasn't her just sitting back and not doing it.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
this stuff like she like we said was the one who was like i'm pretty sure he's having an affair and i'm not letting it go so jb armstrong like let's get going and she even provided additional information and documents to further prove like once it started unraveling she was like oh here's all this shit if that's gonna help you nail him like here it all is like i found some more shit for you and that's her in real life like that she really did do that
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Like, she was vital in unraveling this whole thing because she wasn't, even as a product of that time and society around her at the time, she wasn't a woman who was going to sit down and just be comfortable passively letting these things happen to her. She knew something was amiss right off the bat. She took action right off the bat. And of course, she had no idea why.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Like, no way of knowing how amiss things were. What exactly she was unraveling here. And what she was up against. And it's like, once she found out that there was, like, way more shit than just an affair, that she was like, he could possibly be murdering these women and, like, maybe he was going to murder you.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Instead of, like, just falling apart, which he had every right to do, hearing that kind of news about your fucking husband, she turned around and was like, how can I help? How can I make sure that he doesn't do this to anyone else? And they're like, what a badass.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Which I'm like, could you be more conspicuous? I know. Just carrying around a duffel bag of marriage certificates?
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
yeah i could think of 22 different reasons let me list them out for you because he was described as being like a gnome looking motherfucker ugly like he absolutely was paraphrasing but it was like he was like a gnome like man he has something described him little alfalfa too in his mugshot that i just want to rip off i think just take it right off i mean i don't see it i don't
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Definitely. Like master manipulator.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
At all times he was playing a character. You're playing a role. I do love one of the things I love that they did do in this title is for a brief period of time while I was listening, I was like, uh-oh, are they going to make Kat and Detective Armstrong fall in love? Because I will not be pleased with that. I was worried. Yeah. It felt like that might have been the direction they were going.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
And I was like, don't you dare take away her agency like that. But nay. But they didn't do it. They did not do it.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yeah, and just letting her have her own agency and being her own character that was just like being a badass and wasn't trying to fall in love with another guy.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
It did. Because it's not just having this woman be completely in relation to what she's doing with a man.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
god she's correct the code like she got her confirmation i love that too to come to that realization and the amount of people who tried to convince her that these were just other men stealing that lonely heart sad oh the gaslighting the gaslighting was outrageous wait people trying to gaslight a woman that's crazy i've never heard that that actually never happens you guys no it was that's why it's fiction you know
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
You're so crazy. That's us. We're just kooky. That's us. What was yours, Alayna? My badass bitch moment was definitely... I loved when she was hiring J.B. Armstrong. And he was like being like, whoa, whoa, whoa at first. And he's like, because she's like, all right, so what do we need to do? What do you need me to start working on? And he was like, no, no, no, you're my client.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Like I'm the detective here. I'm the investigator. And she was like, actually, no, you're my partner now. We're working together. If you're not willing to treat me as a partner, I'll go find someone who will. And I was like, snap, snap, snap, baby. I was like, yes. She was like, I don't need to be here.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
I'll find somebody who actually respects the partnership and doesn't treat me like a little peon.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yeah, without her, it could have kept going on and on and on for a long time. And to think how many more people he could have killed. Absolutely.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Oh shit.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Oh, that's spooky. Yeah, that's wild. I know. Being in L.A. must be weird that way because so many things have happened there. You're just like surrounded by.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yeah, that's true. No, it's true. And you know the locations of a lot of them mostly.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
So you can just be like, I'm surrounded.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Also, at the end of this whole title, when she speaks the names of all the victims in the court scene... That was chilling. Putting that in there was iconic. And it was so perfect. Like... So ending on that was like, yeah, I love the nod to to the reality. Yeah. And in the true part of this crime, making sure that they were heard as well, because obviously Kat was the focus of the narrative.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Of course. But the fact that they didn't forget about the other victims along the way. Yeah, it's nice. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
It's a quick listen.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Exactly.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yeah, except there is one scene of them eating. Just be forewarned.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
So my recommendation for a title to listen to is Sleep Tight by J.H. Markert. I recommend all his titles and all his books, in fact, because I think he's a brilliant horror author. It's a perfect one. It's got like... a creepy little fictional town in it. He's really good at infusing some supernatural elements, but they don't even feel. They feel like they're just reality in it.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
I haven't listened to that yet. Yeah, and he's got a serial killer in this one in a small town. He's a great author. I highly, highly recommend Sleep Tight.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or an Apple podcast or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
We're there for you. This title is there for you.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
It's true. Do it. It's a crazy case. Like this case, I went into because it was my episode when we covered it on Morbid. It was my episode. It was my episode. Not yours. It was mine. And when we went into it, I was like, oh, I think I've heard of this. I don't know if I, like, I don't know the details.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
But I was like, oh, this is, like, one of these guys that just, like, abandons women and takes their money. Like, you know, the classic tale. Like an H.H. Holmes-y style guy. So much to hear. And it did kind of feel like he had those vibes to him just because of all the fraud and shit he was committing, like, across society.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
borders and shit and the aliases the alias i like this guy's bonkers oh he is wild and organized i'm like r.i.p walter you would have loved tinder oh my god truly yes that would have made his scheme so much easier because like thinking about like the log books and shit that he had to keep to keep his different wives straight keep track of them yeah and like letters he would Absolutely.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Like he had to keep like his like communication with them straight, what he told one, what he told the other, like the different stories he was telling them about why he was out of town all the time. Like I can't remember what I had for dinner last night.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yes. Stressful. I can't imagine what his nervous system looked like. Oh, it was riddled. It was riddled with anxiety. Maybe it wasn't, though. Maybe he was just totally cool as a cucumber.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
You better believe.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yeah, definitely. He was never really taught to have a strong emotional tie to anything because his own parents treated him like shit. And his mother really treated him like shit. And then, I mean, once he finally got out of there, what was he, 12 years old, I think, when he got out of there and went on his own? It's like then the world treated him like shit.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
And obviously that's no validation or like justification for what he did. It's just I think this is why he was able, like you said, to just like shut it off because he was like, well, no one's ever had any connection to me. So why should I have a real connection to anyone else?
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yeah. Everyone used him for what they could get out of him. So he just decided that that was the life he was going to live. And he did it in the awful way. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And he could have gone the other way. Plenty of people have. Plenty of people have tragic backgrounds. Plenty of people get treated like shit.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
And they go on to be amazing people who are like, I'm not going to continue this cycle. But he's an asshole.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yes, be grateful. These are all steps.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Well, before we get into it even further, I just want to talk really quickly about the writers for this title and the process, because it's really, this is an interesting one. It is. So one of the names you're definitely going to say, wait a second, I know that name. Jim Clemente is one of the authors of this. He's a former FBI profiler who was part of the team that cracked the DC sniper case.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
which is wild yeah that's a big deal he's been part of like huge cases like this guy has flex on flex on flex he's a former New York prosecutor he's a writer and producer for Criminal Minds oh love that show yep He's a podcaster for Real Crime Profile, Best Case, Worst Case, FBI Profilers, and Criminal Archives. He's after our own heart with all those podcasts. He is.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
And he's also a consultant for law enforcement and for creative projects that involve his like massive expanse of expertise. And he's just like wildly impressive. Wow. And he had, like, a really tough, like, beginning to life as well. He has a lot of, like, things in his backstory that he could have turned the other way, and he went this way.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
So he's, like, also very inspirational if you read up on him. Definitely. And he was a first responder at 9-11, so. Wow. Yeah. So he's just, how do you even lift that resume? Like, I don't even know how he carries it around with him. Right.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
And then his co-author was Peter McDonald, who is an author with 43 books. Like, damn. 43 books.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
The duo of the century.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yes, you get transported. When you can hear the music, like the old-timey, like, oh.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
In LA. Yes.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Oh, and Jim Clemente has it now in his personal collection. Yeah, he got that leather bound tome.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yeah, for sure. And you can tell, like, he does, because it's Joseph Fiennes that plays him, he does a good job of making him...
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Because this is really interesting. Like Spencer said, it's like a super immersive, like you feel like you're there experience. And that definitely goes for some of the actors, like Catherine, played by Karen David, Watsons, played by Joseph Fiennes, and J.B. Armstrong, our guys, Adrian Pasdar. I think the three of them did an amazing job.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
But what really set this whole thing into a different realm, I think, is that how they recorded this. So they recorded live in three different time zones, first of all. Each recording space for each actor, it was set up and movement was choreographed. So the actors would move through the space while the microphone was set in the middle of the room. So all of this would impact the sound.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
So audio was like 3D immersive. You heard the movements that they were making because they were physically making those movements in a room. Like it wasn't put in later or something like that. So you heard them in real time, like very organically.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
And I feel like that's a very different and unique style of doing something like this. Definitely.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Literally. That's the thing, you know? Like, we were trying to, we can barely get time to hang out with friends. I know. Just us trying to all get our schedules locked.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yeah, it's crazy. So what I think also makes like takes this one and kind of like separates it from a lot of titles is the way that the this is obviously inspired by a true crime case. And they kept a lot of it very true to what happened and the way that they kind of like fictionalized parts of it to me didn't impact the case in a way that was like negative.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
I think I think if anything, it only made it easier to follow. I definitely agree. Like the plot.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
And it's just an engaging way to tell the story. Like with this radio style and 3D audio, it, like we said, pulls you into each scene. You feel like you're there. You feel like if you close your eyes, you can just like hear all this because it's...
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Like we were talking about before, like the music in the background and you can hear someone lighting up a cigarette and you can hear... So you feel like you get this everything happening all around the room kind of feeling. And it's also cool that this narrative... definitely places it in that specific time and place.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
A grumble that went through the crowd.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
It's your gotcha moment. Yeah. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Stay the course. Yeah. Did you have a bit of a different process writing the songs this time around? No, no, same process.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
I hear about that all the time. Some of the greatest bands like Fleetwood Mac wanted to kill each other half the time. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Elena's held her own Bible study now.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
They're like, is that the one with the pear? With the pear you were talking about?
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
You're going to have to let us know if The Devils has a different name. It's the one written, produced, and directed by Ken Russell.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Oh, that got dark so fast. At first I was like, all right, sounds cool, like this guy. Then I was like, oh, shit.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
So if you want, we can let them in now, if that's good.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
He's here. Welcome to the show, Doug Bradley.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
And we hope you keep it weird. Bye.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Hey, weirdos. If you guys know one thing about us, it's that we love a deep dive. Well, if you're looking for a limited series that will completely consume you, we've got you covered. Those sketchy texts you're always getting? Sometimes there's something way darker behind them. Imagine helping your brother land a dream job abroad, only to discover you've trapped him in a nightmare.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
We're talking armed guards with shoot-to-kill orders and thousands forced to scam others just to stay alive. Wondery's new podcast, Scam Factory, follows one family's desperate fight to save their brother from a multi-billion dollar criminal empire, where the only way out is to become part of the scheme that trapped you. Are you looking for a wild story that'll keep you up at night?
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. you can binge all episodes of scam factory early and ad free right now by joining wondery plus
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
And this is a very special episode of Morbid.
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
Yeah, so I think that I'm sort of in a, I wouldn't say unique category, but it's one that you don't hear discussed often when you hear about different sort of financial advice or podcasts that I listen to. And it's that I'm not concerned with my legacy. I'm more concerned with my lifestyle. So that's why I'm trying to find this balance between
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
How much do I put away for when I retire, but how much can I keep for now and do some of the things that I want to do? So I recently learned about the FIRE movement and it's something that I'm really interested in, but I don't know what I could do. I'm in my 40s. It may be, you know, typically people get started younger.
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
So that's one of my goals is to be able to not work at least in what my professional career is until I'm 65 or whatever the retirement age is now. And I would also eventually like to leave the U.S. and purchase a home either in Portugal or Italy. That's sort of my goal.
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
I sort of like your description or the description of barista fire. I'm pursuing my doctorate. I'm nearly done in public health. And so public health is an area that I've loved and I've been passionate about for a very long time. So I'd like to sort of stay involved, but not necessarily through a full-time job that requires me to be, you know, based in one place. So probably barista.
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
A few, actually. I got started kind of late contributing to a retirement account. I currently have a Roth IRA and a traditional IRA. I have a 401k through my job. However, there's no match, which is unfortunate. So I got started kind of late because I worked places where salary maybe wasn't great or they didn't offer any sort of 401k or pension plan.
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
And now that I'm in a better place, I'd say like professionally, financially, I've started to contribute more. So I'm trying to balance that, like how much I put away for when I can retire and not get like taxed too crazily for it and how much I need before I can retire in order to sort of have the lifestyle that I want.
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
Yeah. The majority of my cash is in a high-yield savings account. I have some of it in stocks through my brokerage account, but I'm thinking maybe I can be more aggressive with that and put more into my brokerage account. I also have a life insurance plan that
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
It's a universal life insurance policy, and how I've understood it is the money can grow over time, and I can take it out without being penalized, like maybe something like a Roth IRA or traditional IRA. So I have my money in a few different places. I just want to maximize where I have it in terms of what I want to do with it now and later.
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
Okay. Sorry, could I ask a couple questions?
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
Did you call it an in-force simulation?
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
Okay. And what does it mean if it crashes and burns?
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
Okay, got it. And I'm also curious why you're not that convinced in a universal life insurance account. You're saying some people see it as a vehicle to sort of generate assets faster than a tax rate.
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
Got it. That's good to know. Thanks.
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
Early in the conversation, we talked about, you know, how certain stocks have really plummeted. And it's been volatile, the market in the last few weeks. And I know you don't give financial advice, but seeing that I still have disposable cash that I could maybe invest more, I don't know, wisely, is it a good time to buy stocks?
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
And if so, which ones or how should I learn about which ones would be good to invest in now?
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
But that could fluctuate. I mean, that's going to fluctuate over time. So I guess I'm just a little confused about selling your stocks. You're taxed on it, right? So you're going to pay, I don't know what amount it is, actually. Maybe I shouldn't know. So if it's something that you need, like you said, within three to five years, maybe don't put your money in these indices, right?
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
For sure, I'm going to revisit my life insurance plan. That made a lot of sense to me. I also want to explore CDs, something where I could invest money and keep it there if I don't need it immediately, like six plus months is fine for me, as well as the international index funds that you mentioned.
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
Hello. Thank you. It's nice to be here.
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
I work for, it's a public benefit corporation. I guess to make it not a very complicated explanation, because I have sometimes trouble understanding it myself, but I work for the New York City Housing Authority. So we get federal funding through HUD. yet were also sort of operated at the local and state level.
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
Being sort of under HUD in terms of funding, I was, you know, I grew a little concerned with all the cuts that are being made at the federal level. With Doge, I thought maybe I should be hitting pause in some of the contributions I'm making. Maybe I should be putting my money somewhere else in case I need it. Should I lose my job in the next few months? So that's why I reached out.
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
I have at least a couple of years.
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
I guess so.
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
That's awesome.
NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast
Smart Planning Sessions: Investing Through Uncertainty and Planning for Early Retirement Abroad
Thank you. It's good to hear.
Serialously with Annie Elise
280: She Went On A Tinder Date, Then He Cut Out Her Tongue | Zaliya Shamigulova
I mean, she usually would keep in touch with her family. She was very active on social media posting about her trips and her adventures. So is that a red flag right from the jump?
Serialously with Annie Elise
280: She Went On A Tinder Date, Then He Cut Out Her Tongue | Zaliya Shamigulova
She was found naked, which into itself is very vulnerable. Then she was murdered. But this is the part that really stuck out with me. Her tongue was cut out of her mouth. Now let's start with this.
Serialously with Annie Elise
280: She Went On A Tinder Date, Then He Cut Out Her Tongue | Zaliya Shamigulova
It is one of the more gruesome cases I've heard in recent history, just the way that she died. She was found naked, which into itself is very vulnerable. Then she was murdered. But this is the part that really stuck out with me. Her tongue was cut out of her mouth. Later, we learned the suspect allegedly says it's so that she can't scream for help. What do you make of that?
Serialously with Annie Elise
280: She Went On A Tinder Date, Then He Cut Out Her Tongue | Zaliya Shamigulova
When they find her clothes, what would that do? I mean, they've already pretty much determined how she died. Why do they need the clothes? Just for extra evidence?
Serialously with Annie Elise
280: She Went On A Tinder Date, Then He Cut Out Her Tongue | Zaliya Shamigulova
Almost right away after Zelia's disappearance, there were some blatant signs that something was off. I think the next thing that really jumped out to me is that her family back home in Russia, where she's from, started to receive text messages from her that basically said, I'm hoping to disappear. Do not contact me again. I don't want to be in contact with you. This seemed to be out of character.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And finally, Walter gave his opinion about how John's injuries were caused. And to do this, Welcher purchased a Lexus identical to Karen's, and he put himself quite literally in John's shoes. Now, Welcher is a similar height and weight to John, so he decided to play the role of John in this series of reenactments.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And to really drive home the point, he also tracked down copies of the same shirt, jeans, hoodie, hat, and sneakers that John was wearing on the night of his death. And I get that as a scientist, Walter wants to recreate that scene as closely as possible, but I think cosplaying as a dead man, a potential murder victim, I don't know, it was a little odd. Maybe that's just me.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Now, in this reenactment, Walter smeared some blue paint on the right taillight of his model Lexus and then allowed it to drive into his body at around two miles per hour. And he showed that if the car hits him at this particular angle, his body sort of spins out. I think he called it a pirouette. And Mattela ends up hitting his right arm right around where John had those cuts.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And he also testified that the Lexus bumper would line up with the scrape to John's knee and the rear spoiler would line up with the cut to John's right eye. Now, the obvious issue here is, well, you just said the car was going at 23 miles per hour, but you did your reenactment at two miles per hour. So how accurate could that really be?
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Now, he did clarify and said that pedestrian injuries can be really difficult to model. So he said he wasn't trying to exactly replicate the accident and just show one possible way that the injuries could have occurred.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Then when asked if colliding with John's arm would produce enough force to break Karen's taillight, Welcher said that it would, as long as the car was moving at at least 8 miles an hour.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Welcher also showed videos of dropping a test dummy backwards to show how John's head could have hit the ground, and he testified that skull fractures can happen from heights as low as 40 inches, and John was much taller at about 73 inches.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Walter also went on to explain the difference between a regular head-on collision and a glancing or sideswipe type collision, where the body is actually struck at an angle.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And he said that in these sideswipe collisions, the pedestrians will often move or take a step or do something to regain their balance, which can cause the bodies to ultimately be found further away from the collision than you might expect.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Then when he was asked if it's uncommon for a sideswipe victim to not have any injuries to the lower body, Welcher said, quote, Now, based on all this, Welcher concluded that Karen did hit John with her car.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
But after several sidebars and arguments from the lawyers, he was forced to change his position and say that the damage to the Lexus is consistent with hitting John, and that John's injuries are consistent with being hit by the Lexus. But he's not allowed to explicitly say that Karen hit John with her car.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Now, if everything Welcher said is true, you have to admit this is pretty damning evidence against Karen. But she seemed less than impressed with his testimony. She said, quote, he backed into himself at 2.2 or something miles per hour, so he tried to dress identically to John but didn't do anything else to mimic what the Commonwealth is accusing me of, end quote.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Now, after a direct examination, Cross started up on Wednesday the 28th. I've talked before about witnesses who are tough to watch on cross. Witnesses who just never want to give the other side an inch. Jen McCabe comes to mind, Yurid Yukonik is another one, but Dr. Welcher might just take the cake for most difficult cross.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
He and Alessi were going in circles, he would snap at Alessi, at one point he refused to close his laptop during questioning, and he would respond in this kind of snotty, I'm better than you kind of way. It was a lot. Now, like I've said before, I don't necessarily think this means he's lying.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And in fact, if you lean towards more the prosecution side, you actually might think it's a good thing that the witnesses are really resistant to the defense. But my gosh, is it difficult to listen to.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And in my opinion, witnesses who are more willing to consider the other side's point of view, even if that means conceding some of their points, I think those witnesses come across as more forthcoming and trustworthy. I don't know if that's how the jury will see it, but that's my view. I think of Dr. Scordi Bello, Ian Whiffen to some extent, most people from the crime lab.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Those to me were prosecution witnesses who, yes, they stood by their findings, but they were willing to admit, you know, the areas of ambiguity or other possibilities, at least to some extent. And I personally found them more credible than Jen, than Yuri, and definitely than Dr. Welcher. So after all that, what actually happened on Cross?
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Well, first, Alessi took issue with Welcher's claim that he, quote, doesn't have a dog in this fight because it turns out that his firm was paid almost $400,000 by the prosecution for this testimony. And that sounds like a pretty expensive dog to me. Alessi then asked Welcher to do some calculations to figure out how much force it would take to break or fracture a bone in John's hand.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Now, Alessi and Welcher, they went back and forth for a long time about this, again, almost painful. But in the end, Welcher admitted that if John's hand had hit a specific part of the car, like the exhaust pipe, the license plate cover, or even the corner of the taillight, he said that it's possible that enough force could be generated to fracture the hand.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Alessi and Welcher also argued if it were reasonable or possible for Karen's car to have either hit one of those parked cars at 34 Fairview or have driven up the lawn during this alleged backup maneuver. And again, after a lot of squabbling, Welcher eventually said it was possible, but he couldn't say for sure without knowing where the car started when doing that backup maneuver.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Then the questioning turned to John's arm injuries. Walter again said that his blue paint experiments were done at a much slower speed than the car was actually moving.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And he admitted that he doesn't know several variables that could be important, like the exact speed of the car at the time of the collision, John's exact position on the road, John's posture, and where John was relative to the car. Now, on the subject of John's position, Alessi did make a good point that I hadn't thought about until he brought it up.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Welcher said that John's body was found about seven feet into the yard at 34 Fairview, while Karen's car was obviously on the road. And the height difference between the road and the lawn, meaning, you know, the height of the curb that would separate the two, it's about four inches.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And Welcher didn't account for that when he did the injury reenactments because he was hit while he was still standing on the road flush with the car. Also, under Welcher's theory, John's arm would have to maintain some contact with the moving car for some time to create those big cuts. But he admitted that he doesn't have enough information to figure out exactly how long that contact would be.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Now, as for the injuries to John's head, Alessi took issue with Welcher's direct testimony that head injuries are the most common injuries in pedestrian collisions. Apparently, the study that Welcher used to make that claim was published 45 years ago in 1979. And to give some context to where that falls in the history of car safety, that's actually well before seatbelts were even required by law.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And according to Alessi, more modern studies show that now, with improved safety, injuries to the lower extremities are actually the most common injuries in pedestrian collisions, and we know John didn't have any of those.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Then cross-examination continued into Thursday, after Judge Cannone ruled that the defense cannot question Dr. Welcher about findings from Dr. Scordi Bello or Trooper Joseph Paul, even though Welcher referenced both of those people in his PowerPoint presentation. Now, like I said, Cross on Wednesday was hard to listen to. Cross on Thursday might have been even worse.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
We had a little informal survey going on in the live stream chat about the craziest cross-examinations of this trial. The choices I gave were Jen McCabe, Yuri Bukinic, Shannon Burgess, and Judson Welcher. And on Wednesday, Burgess had the most votes by far. But by the end of the day Thursday, almost everyone had changed their vote to Welcher being, you know, the craziest, cringiest cross.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
At one point, even Alessi lost his cool, and he's usually very even-tempered. Alessi said something like, Judge, he keeps saying I'm doing something with my hand. I'm not doing anything with my hand. Make him stop. It was really bad, honestly. They sounded like two preteens arguing. And I say this as a fan of Alessi. It was really hard to watch on both sides, in my opinion.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
So anyway, what actually happened in the cross? Well, Walsher admitted that the Ring camera that he analyzed at John's house in October of 2024 and used for his testing, that camera, he said, was different than the Ring camera that actually filmed the contact between Karen and John's car in January 2022.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And Walter admitted that one camera was angled slightly more to the right than the other, but he argued that his laser grid system was able to account for that difference. But he also admitted that he didn't actually measure the difference specifically between the two cameras, nor did he even know the make and model of either camera to be able to really compare them.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Alessi also asked about the hydraulic suspension system on Karen's Lexus, specifically the distance between the body of the car and the ground. Alessi argued that that distance can vary by as much as 5 inches on this particular model of Lexus, so he asked Welcher what suspension height was used during the blue paint testing.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Welcher didn't know, and eventually admitted that he just assumed it was the same height it was when the car was with the police department. Now, after that painful cross-examination, the prosecution played a final interview clip from Karen's ID docuseries. I'm going to read the entire quote because I think it's important.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
This is essentially the final words that the prosecution is leaving with the jury before their closing statements. In the clip, Karen says, So I thought, could I run him over? Did he try to get me as I was leaving and I didn't know it? I've always got my music blasting. It's snowing. I've got the wipers going, the heater blasting.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Did he come and hit the back of my car and I hit him in the knee and he was drunk and passed out and asphyxiated or something? And then when I hired David Iannetti, I asked him those questions. The night of January 29th, like, David, what if, I don't know, what if I ran over his foot? What if I clipped him in the knee and he passed out? Or went to care for himself and threw up and passed out?
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And David said, yeah, then you would have some element of culpability. End quote. Then after that clip, we got the all-important announcement that we were all waiting for. The Commonwealth has rested their case.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
After six long weeks, 38 witnesses, over 100 pieces of evidence, and who knows how many of those interview clips, the prosecution is done, except for their closing statement, of course, and if they bring back rebuttal witnesses. So what do we think of the prosecution's case overall? In my opinion, I don't think they did a great job of proving the second-degree murder charge.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
I think they have very little evidence that if a collision did occur, it was intentional. Now, they did try to introduce some motive by arguing that Karen could have been jealous, you know, showing those text messages of Karen asking John if he was seeing someone else. But overall, I think very little to show murder. And I do expect the jury to vote not guilty on murder.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Then that other charge that's very rarely mentioned, that's the leaving the scene of a collision resulting in death charge. I also don't think that was very well proven because to find her guilty of that, the jury would have to find that Karen knew John was injured or killed at the time of this collision and knowingly chose not to help him. And I don't think we saw too much evidence of that.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Again, if a collision did occur, I don't think there's much evidence that Karen knew about it at the time. Now, on the other hand, manslaughter, I think it's a totally different story. I know there's a large group of people who think that the prosecution has nothing and they're expecting, you know, a quick not guilty verdict for manslaughter. And I actually don't agree.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
I might be in the minority here, but I do think the prosecution has presented a decent case for manslaughter. Now, I'm not saying that I personally believe she did it or that the jury should find her guilty. I don't think that at all, actually. But what I'm saying is that I think there's a case here and I think it could go either way, guilty or not guilty.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
But I certainly don't think that the deliberation will be quick or a landslide. I think the jury is going to have a lot to consider here. And I think it's going to come down to these fine details, how they weigh the credibility of Aperture versus Arca, How they weigh, say, that taillight evidence against the sketchiness of Proctor.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
How they weigh an investigative statement, like, could I have hit him? How do you weigh that against a declarative statement, like, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him? I think all of those things are going to come into play, and I think it's going to be close. Then the defense officially kicked off their case on Friday the 30th.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And they opened with a motion outside of the jury's presence for a required finding of not guilty on the charges of second-degree murder and leaving the scene of a collision resulting in death. And they mentioned some of the same elements that I just talked about, particularly that the Commonwealth didn't seem to show any intent from Karen's part to cause John's death.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Now, saying a required finding of not guilty does sound pretty dramatic, but it's actually pretty common for defenses to do, especially in these high-stakes murder cases, and they do it after the prosecution rests, and they do it also knowing that it'll probably be denied, but it keeps the door open for an appeal later down the road.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Now, of course, this was denied, but it was pretty cool to hear Alan Jackson argue why the charges should be dropped because it was kind of like a preview to the points that we can expect to hear during the defense's case and closing arguments.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
After the motion was denied, the defense called their very first witness, Matthew DeSogra, who works for the accident reconstruction firm Delta V. Now, just like Shannon Burgess and Judson Welcher, DeSogra is primarily being called for the purpose of establishing when Karen's car did that backup maneuver and how that time compares to when John's phone was last used.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And the defense was clever about this. They didn't have DeSogre really do any of his own testing or measurements or anything, but they actually had him review reports from Burgess and Welcher and point out some holes in them.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And I say that's clever because this way they don't have to actually show that DeSogre's measurements or methods or analysis are any better than Aperture's because he's using their own data. He's taking the prosecution's own reports and saying, here's what your experts didn't get right about them.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Now, to really boil down to Sogre's testimony, he took data from both of Burgess's two reports, as well as Welch's slides, and he compared or displayed every possible scenario that they came up with. Now, what do I mean by every possible scenario? Well, Aputure did the clock syncing between the Lexus and John's phone in two different ways.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
They did it by looking at phone call logs and also data from a three-point turn. And then there's also this issue of the time difference between pushing the button to start the car and when the infotainment center in the car actually powers up. And there's some debate over what that delay is and how it should be accounted for when syncing the two clocks.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
So basically what the SOGR did was list out every possible combination of clock syncing values that you could possibly get from either doing the phone call log method or the three point turn method, and then either considering or not considering this key on delay. And by doing that, de Sogre ends up with 30 possible values for the time difference between these two clocks.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And he argued that basically all of the 30 are equally valid. There's no scientific reason to think that one or some of these 30 are any more likely to have occurred than any others. Now, assuming that John's phone was last used at 12.32am and 9 seconds, it turns out that 25 of these 30 possible values would mean that John's phone was last used after Karen's backup maneuver.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Two of the possible values would mean that John's phone was last used at the same time as Karen's backup maneuver. And only three of the 30 possible values, 10%, would mean that John's phone was last used before Karen's backup maneuver. Now remember, this is based off Aperture's own data.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
The prosecution's own reports show that 25 of the 30 possible values would mean that John's phone continued to be used after Karen's car backed up. And the last point on direct is that DeSogre said that there was no evidence of Karen's car being in any sort of collision on the night of the incident. No evidence on the airbag control module and no evidence in the tech stream data.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Now, I do want to say, throughout my recaps, I've tried to steer clear of commenting on the judge too much. But even I've got to say, she was not making it easy for the defense here. There were like 25, maybe even 30 objections that were sustained just during the first direct examination. And sometimes an objection would come and be sustained before Jackson could really even get his question out.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And then on Cross, we definitely got to see a different side of Brennan from the prosecution. Remember, Brennan spent most of his career as a defense attorney, so Cross is probably where he has the most experience. And we definitely got to see his feisty side, shall we say. He first got DeSogra to admit that he's not saying that Karen's car never got into a collision on the night of the incident.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
He's just saying that none of the tech stream data events were triggered by a collision. And DeSogra also admitted that he's not an expert in mobile forensics, nor did he conduct any independent testing in this case. We know he just analyzed and critiques reports from others.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And then Brennan takes Sosogra down several paths about different assumptions that he might have made when doing the analysis. Like, for example, what if he incorrectly assumed that some of the phone call logs used for the syncing were between the Lexus call system and an iPhone instead of between just two iPhones?
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And the conclusion here is that yes, if there were incorrect assumptions made, or if there were errors in the dataset, the dataset that was made by the prosecution's experts, by the way, then yes, then some of the 30 variance values should be excluded from that list of possibilities.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
But it doesn't change the overall conclusion that the vast majority of these possible clock sync values do show John's phone being used after the backup maneuver. Now, despite what the prosecution established during Cross, I do want to point something out about DeSogra that I think could make his testimony go far in the minds of the jury.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Something that's completely separate from credibility, separate from how many degrees someone has, all that stuff. And that's understandability. Now, I think that compared to Welcher and Burgess, DeSogre's testimony was much more digestible to a non-expert, to a regular person on the jury. His slides were cleaner, his answers were shorter and more straightforward.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And I do think the defense had a good way of asking questions in a way that, you know, there was a line of logic to follow. And I think that understandability, digestibility, things like that, those are really powerful tools in a case that's this complicated.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
I think even if you lean towards the prosecution, even if you don't like what DeSogra has to say, if he can say it in a way that makes sense, that's clean, that's straightforward, I think that can go far.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Then at the end of the day, we heard brief arguments from the lawyers outside of the jury's presence about whether Michael Proctor's friend should be called as a witness so that the defense can introduce into evidence those text messages that Proctor sent to his friends about the case without actually calling Proctor himself. But we don't know the judge's ruling on this issue quite yet.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Now, the defense is set to continue first thing on Monday morning. And remember, the defense is only expected for their case to last about a week or two. And that's actually not uncommon. It doesn't mean that the defense doesn't have a strong case. For example, Casey Anthony's team only had about six days of testimony for the defense compared to 18 days from the prosecution.
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And we know how that worked out. Not to say that Casey and Karen are the same in any way, but just drives home the point that a long case doesn't necessarily mean a good one. But anyway, all of this means that we're quickly approaching the end, but there's still a lot of questions to be answered. Like, will the judge allow him these text messages from Proctor's friend?
Serialously with Annie Elise
282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And if not, will the defense be forced to call Proctor himself? What about Brian Higgins? Brian Albert? Still a lot to come, and I can't wait to see you guys next week to break it all down. Thanks, Annie.
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282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Hey Annie, great to see you again. Now, we finally started the sixth week of the retrial on Tuesday after that long five-day break. The prosecution called their 38th and final witness Dr. Judson Welcher. He's like the prosecution's grand finale, if you will. Now, like Shannon Burgess from last week, Welcher also works for the accident reconstruction firm Aperture.
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282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Now, maybe after everything came out about Burgess's credentials, or lack thereof, should we say, people might be skeptical of anyone from Aperture, but it does seem to me that Welcher is actually qualified. You know, he has his PhD. It's in biomedical engineering from USC. And on direct examination, Dr. Welcher testified about three main topics.
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282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
The first had to do with data that he recovered from Karen's SUV. He said that the event data recorder, or what we might know as the black box, it didn't show any collision on the night of the incident. But he said that that doesn't actually mean that the car didn't hit John, because the black box generally only records collisions between two cars, not a car and a pedestrian.
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282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
He also testified to a specific trigger event on that car around 12.32 a.m. During this event, he determined that Karen's car went forward 34 feet and then accelerated as it backed up 53 feet. And at the end of that 10-second maneuver, he said the car was at 74% throttle and moving at at least 23 miles an hour.
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282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Now, using the clock-syncing analysis done by Shannon Burgess, Dr. Welcher then calculated the time of this backup maneuver to be between 12.32 a.m. and four seconds and 12.32 a.m. and 12 seconds, which she says is within the window when John's phone was last used.
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282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Now, I did find this area of Dr. Welcher's testimony to be credible, but it's also worth noting that a good part of his conclusions rely on that analysis from Burgess. So if you don't believe what Burgess said last week about syncing clocks, we might have a sort of snowball effect and we have to start questioning some of Welcher's conclusions.
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282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
Then Dr. Welcher's second main area of testimony takes us back to that ring camera video that shows Karen pulling out of John's driveway to look for him at around 5 a.m. on the morning of the incident. That's the video that shows her bumping John's car with her right taillight.
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282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And of course, it's the defense's position that that's when she broke the taillight, not five hours earlier when allegedly crashing into John. But Dr. Welcher disagreed. He testified about the great lengths he went through to analyze that rain camera video, and that included tracking the cars frame by frame, enhancing the video, and using this like laser grid type system. It was a lot.
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282: ARE YOU KIDDING?! Karen Read: The Defense Came Out Swinging!
And in the end, he said that while John's car and Karen's car did make contact, quote, that impact did not break or crack that taillight. About John's car, he said, quote, so sure, it knocked the snow off, but it wasn't sufficient to cause damage to his vehicle. And furthermore, he said that he saw nothing in the snow after Karen's car left the driveway.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
The video shows Karen's parked car along with the tow truck driver kind of near the hood of the car and Michael Proctor circling around and then he's kind of popping up and messing around with something that appears to be near the left rear area of the car. And that's how this footage was shown in the first trial.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
And given this footage, Jackson pointed out that Bukinick testified in that first trial that neither he nor Proctor even came near the rear right taillight, which is in line with the video. But then here's the kicker we were all waiting for. This video is inverted. It's actually the mirror image of what happened.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
That means all that messing around, poking around, whatever it was that Proctor was up to, that was actually happening next to the right rear taillight, not the left. Buchanek actually agreed, and he also admitted that the video was taken before any taillight evidence was found at 34 Fairview. And he said that the drive from Canton PD to 34 Fairview only takes about four minutes.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
And in my opinion, this was big for the defense. Remember, before Buchanek was called, all the defense had really done to refute the prosecution's taillight evidence was show that there was this window of opportunity where the scene at 34 Fairview was unmonitored.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
But now, they've not only shown the jury that there was opportunity to plant the evidence, they've also pointed out exactly who they think did it, they've showed a video that suggested that he could have done it, and maybe worst of all, they also showed that measures were taken to manipulate or cover up that video evidence.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Now, of course, Buchanick denied that the inversion was purposeful, but you get what I mean, right? This definitely looks shady. The question is, has the defense done enough for the jury to buy that a seasoned Massachusetts state trooper would really plant dozens and dozens of pieces of evidence at a crime scene?
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
How is the jury going to weigh the testimony and the trustworthiness of Buchanick against the shadiness of this inverted video? I don't know. What do you guys think? Now, after Yuri's testimony finally wrapped up on Monday, we learned pretty last minute that court wouldn't be held on Tuesday, and it later came out that that was because Karen herself was sick.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
But she seemed well enough for court to resume on Wednesday the 14th. Now, the prosecution went through quite a few witnesses, and my theory is that they kind of realized that Bukinik hurt their case more than helped it, so they wanted to bring in their most reliable, most emotionally compelling witnesses today. Again, just my opinion.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Now, we started off with John's niece, who was 14 at the time of his death and now only 17, so cameras weren't allowed for her testimony. We did learn that she said Karen would take her out for food and to go shopping, but she sometimes felt like Karen was cold and favored her younger brother, John's nephew.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
She also testified that Karen and John initially seemed to have a pretty good relationship, but they began fighting a couple times a week towards the end. She specifically mentioned Karen and John arguing during a family trip to Aruba.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Apparently something about his nephew being on an iPad too much, and also this thing about John kissing someone else, which lines up pretty well with what we learned from Karen and Brian's text messages. Also, in early 2022, John's niece said that she heard John tell Karen that their relationship was quote, good, but it had run its course, end quote.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Which ended in John storming off to a bedroom and Karen banging on the door. Now fast forwarding to the morning of John's death, his niece testified that Karen was frantic and saying things like, could I have done something? And maybe I hit him. She also said that Karen didn't try to comfort her or her brother at all after John's death.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Now, most of this stuff we already knew from other sources, but I think the niece's testimony was still valuable for the prosecution in the same way that John's mother testimony was valuable. It reminded the jury and us that in the middle of all this crazy case, there's a real and beloved person who's no longer with us.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
And we now have two kids who've lost their mother, their father, their father figure, who was John, and they've also lost Karen as a mother figure. And it was a reminder that, honestly, no matter what the verdict is, there are really no winners in this case.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
The next witness was State Police Sergeant Zachary Clark, who was in charge of photographing Karen's SUV while it was in the Canton PD garage, as well as photographing this scene outside of 34 Fairview. He showed the jury photos of the odometer and the backup warning display on Karen's car.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
On cross-examination, Clark testified that he didn't photograph the car until February 1st, and he admitted that he didn't know how much access Michael Proctor could have had to the car before he arrived. And on a different note, Clark also said that he and Proctor interviewed Colin Albert together. Now, that's the nephew of the homeowner, Brian Albert.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
And when the defense pointed out that Colin wasn't interviewed until a year and a half after the incident, Clark couldn't really explain why they had waited so long. Another state police sergeant was on the stand next.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
This was Evan Brent, who photographed some of the evidence that was recovered from the lawn of 34 Fairview on February 3rd, and he also went to One Meadows and photographed John's car in the driveway.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Now, he testified that he didn't observe any damage to John's car, which is in line with Buchanick's testimony, but it doesn't really answer the main question of, well, was there damage to Karen's car? Because of course it's possible for one car to be damaged, but not the other if there is an accident.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Now, just like with Clark, the main point that the defense established during Brent's cross-examination was that he wasn't involved in the case until February, and he had no knowledge of who could have had access to the car or to the crime scene before then.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Again, showing that there's, at the very least, some opportunity for Proctor to get his hands on everything before everyone else became involved. Sergeant Brian Gallarini briefly took the stand next, and he testified to taking DNA samples from Sergeant Pukenik and former trooper Michael Proctor.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Then lastly on Wednesday, we heard from Maureen Hartnett from the State Police Crime Lab, who processed a lot of the evidence at the scene. Now I gotta say, I liked Hartnett. She came off as being reliable, and she talked about being very meticulous, very by the book when it came to handling the evidence. In fact, maybe she could teach Mr. Leafblower Gallagher a thing or two about evidence.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
But even so, I think her analysis can only be as good as the evidence she's given. And in this case, a lot of the evidence is questionable at best. For example, she had to swab the blood that was in those good ol' reliable red Solo cups. And she testified that she's never before or since seen evidence collected in cups like that.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Also, can you believe that after all this nonsense with the cups, no one even tested those swabs she took to determine whose blood it was, or even if it was blood? She also showed jurors up-close photos of John's clothes, and one in particular caught my eye.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
It was John's gray hoodie, which appeared to have some sort of puncture mark in it, about the size of the tip of my pinky, and it was sort of rough around the edges. And when I saw it, I immediately thought, that doesn't look like something that would be caused by a car collision. It kind of looks more like a bite mark or a tooth mark.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Then on cross-examination, she said that she swabbed the undercarriage of the car and found no traces of blood. She also admitted that any or all of the damage she observed to the car could have been there before the incident.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
And on cross, a lessee for the defense cleverly pointed out that one of the photos of the rear bumper that she took actually shows a reflection, which basically means that Hartnett claimed that there was twice as much glass on the bumper as was actually there, because the reflection made it look like the glass was doubled.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Now, I put this blunder in the same category as the shoe mix-up we had last week. Is it a big deal on its own? Probably not. But could it start to add up in a case where evidence handling is already being called into question? Absolutely. The biggest one on cross, though, came when Alessi asked about the hair and glass found on Karen's car.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Hartnett testified that she found glass charge resting on the rear bumper, and a hair on the back right side of the car. And she said that neither one were hard to remove. She was able to just pick them up and move them with tweezers.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
But if they weren't attached to the car in any way, they were just sort of laying there, how were they able to survive that 30-mile, 45-minute journey from the Reed house to Canton PD, nonetheless during a blizzard and with heavy winds? Then on Thursday, Dr. Aruni Scordabella from the medical examiner's office took the stand.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Now, I was really excited to hear her testimony because up until this point, the prosecution hasn't really given the jury much to conclude how John died. She testified to examining John's external injuries as well as conducting an internal autopsy. On John's face, she identified a one centimeter cut to his eye, a scrape on his nose, and swelling and blood pooling under both eyelids.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
On the back of the head, she identified a 2.5 centimeter cut, and then during the internal portion of the autopsy, she found skull fractures under the cut area. She also observed bleeding on the top of the brain, and because of that, she decided to send the brain to a neuropathologist.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
She also found fractures in the fourth and fifth ribs close to the sternum, but she testified to a reasonable degree of medical certainty that these were caused by chest compressions during CPR, and she didn't observe any other injuries to the chest or abdomen. She observed two bruises on the back of John's right hand.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
And she testified that one was consistent with bruising from medical staff inserting an IV, but she couldn't say how the other was caused. And she also identified a faint scratch to the back of the left hand. On the right arm, she found multiple cuts ranging in size from three millimeters to seven centimeters. She didn't measure their depth, and she also couldn't say what caused them.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
She also identified a half centimeter scrape to the side of the right knee. She said that John's toxicology report showed no prescription medications or drugs, but that his blood alcohol level was high, between 0.21 and 0.28 grams per deciliter.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Ultimately, she determined that the primary cause of death to be blunt impact injuries to the head, with a secondary finding of hypothermia, since his core body temperature was only 80.1 degrees when he was brought to the hospital. However, she was unable to determine the manner of death. The potential categories for that are homicide, suicide, accidental, or natural.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
And she wasn't able to definitively say that one of those was the matter of death. Then cross-examination was handled by Alessi for the defense. Now the defense's main goal here was to raise doubt that John's injuries could have been caused by a car crash or hypothermia. So let's go injury by injury and see if the defense's points make sense here.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
First, we have those two more minor injuries to the face, the cut to the eye and the scrape to the nose. Dr. Scordabelli admitted that those could not have been caused simply by getting struck and falling backwards. And interestingly, she agreed that the injuries could be consistent with getting punched.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
next there's that wound to the back of the head she said on direct that this was the primary cause of death so it's maybe the most important injury alessi asked if she would expect to see grass inside of that wound if it were caused by a backward fall onto the ground she agreed that it were possible but she said that the injury was otherwise completely consistent with falling backwards onto a flat frozen ground lastly there's the important question of damage to john's internal organs
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Specifically, Scordabello has said that the stomach and pancreas showed signs consistent with hypothermia, including ulcers, discoloration, and hemorrhaging. Uncrashed, she admitted that the ulcers in John's stomach, which she had previously attributed to hypothermia, could have also been caused by alcohol consumption. Now, Alessi actually showed autopsy photos from the inside of John's stomach.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
And by the way, these were so graphic that the jurors had to request a break. And he did this to point out that not much of the stomach area was actually covered in ulcers.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Now, as for that pancreas hemorrhaging, which is just another word for bleeding, Scordibello agreed that there could be alternative causes, like deep chest compressions that were performed on John by a Lucas machine, which is a sort of automatic CPR machine.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
And finally, she admitted that John had no signs of frostbite, which I have to admit is pretty surprising considering it was below freezing on the night of the incident. At the end of those findings, Alessi asked Gordobello if she wanted to change her opinions on whether hypothermia was a contributing cause of death for John. But she said, quote,
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Now, there was another interesting part of Cross, which Kay Monalesi gave Scortabello a copy of John's death report. When she was asked to read it to the jury, she mentioned that it references some kind of altercation or dispute in the original death notification. Now, as soon as that was read, of course, the prosecution was like, objection, objection, and the judge told the jury to disregard it.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
But again, it gives credence to this idea that early on, even law enforcement were considering that something other than a car crash could have caused John's death. Now overall, I found Dr. Scordibello to be a credible witness, but I found it hard to say if the testimony really helped either the prosecution or the defense very much.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
On one hand, you could argue that it's going to be really hard for a jury to convict someone of murder when a trained medical examiner won't even rule the death as a homicide. On the other hand, she did say that most of John's injuries could be consistent with falling backwards, hitting the back of the head, and being left in the snow.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Although she did say that most car impact victims have some injuries to the leg area, which she didn't find. Now for me, I still have some questions, especially about those arm lacerations that many people are calling dog bites. And in fact, Alessi specifically asks Cordobello if those cuts could be consistent with a dog bite, but Judge Cannone wouldn't allow the question.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Personally, I would have liked to hear the answer. What do you guys think? Do you guys think this testimony left us with more questions than answers?
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Hey Annie, can you believe it's already the fourth week of the retrial? Let's go ahead and get right into it. So starting with last Friday, which was May 9th, we had a full day dedicated to cross-examination of Yuri Bukinik, who again is a Massachusetts state police sergeant and the former supervisor to the now infamous Michael Proctor.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Now, I thought this was Jackson's strongest cross in terms of laying some of the groundwork for the defense's court arguments. First, Jackson got Buchanick to admit to some serious problems with that taillight evidence. Buchanick found taillight fragments on the lawn of 34 Fairview from February 4th to February 10th. But Michael Proctor searched that same area between the 11th and the 18th.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
and claimed to have recovered some 40 more pieces, including chunks as big as six by six inches, which I would think would be very difficult to miss the first several times around. Now, you might think, OK, well, given the weather, some of the pieces would have been stuck in the snow and not obvious at first.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
But Buchanick admitted that the weather was significantly warmer at this point, and the snow was basically all melted by the 4th. And Jackson really drove that point home. He said, look, Lieutenant Gallagher and his trusty team of leaf blowers and solo cups, they didn't find a single piece of taillight.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Then he takes it a step further and says, quote, As a matter of fact, you're also aware that no taillight material was found until after that SUV was in Massachusetts State Police custody and sitting in the Sallyport in Canton, correct? And Bukinick actually agreed. Now, the defense also showed a ring camera video from John's driveway from around 5 a.m. on the morning of the incident.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
And Bukinick agreed that it appears to show the rear right side of Karen's Lexus hitting John's car. Now, Bukinick said that the collision didn't cause any damage to either vehicle, but I do think that this video has the potential to go far in showing that Karen could have broken her taillight in a different way than just hitting John.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Next on cross, Bukinick testified that he personally verified that the Albert's German Shepherd Chloe had been rehomed, but he admitted that the only proof he had of this were vet records that didn't list Chloe's name or the new owner's name.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
And speaking of suspicious record keeping, Jackson pointed out that dozens of official reports were filed in this case, and basically none of them were done so in a timely manner. In fact, at least seven reports were written and filed more than a year after the incident. And it's not just the reports.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Bukinick admitted that Ricky and Heather, who were in the car with Ryan Nagle and served as eyewitnesses to Karen's car pulling up to 34 Fairview, they weren't interviewed until more than a year and a half after John's death. Now, as I said, given all that we've discussed, I thought that Jackson made a lot of progress in Cross, but Bukinick was not making it easy for him.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
He was especially resistant to admitting to Michael Proctor's involvement in the case. And my thing with this is, you know, he said last week he had every confidence that Proctor handled the case with honesty and integrity. Okay, if that's true, then why is he also trying so hard to distance himself from Proctor? In my opinion, he can't have it both ways.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
And then, maybe as some sort of cosmic karma for being so difficult on Cross, Bukinik was the poor soul who had to read aloud every text message between Brian Higgins and Karen. Now, as a refresher, Brian Higgins, not to be confused with Brian Albert, the homeowner. He's an agent with the U.S.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, and he was at the bar with John, Karen, and the crew, and he was also at 34 Fairview the night of the incident. Now, these texts took hours to read aloud in court, and I've done my best to narrow it down to just the highlights. Alright, first text thread. Brian, you're nuts. Foul ball. Karen, you stink.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Brian, you suck and you're double trouble. Karen, you're hot. Brian, are you serious or messing with me? Karen, no, I'm serious. Brian, feeling is mutual. You think you can handle me? Karen, are you hard to handle? Brian, what do you like about me? Karen, I just feel like you're from my neighborhood. Brian, yeah, ditto. Karen, and I think you're hot. Brian, you really think that?
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
I've always thought that about you. Karen, what? Brian, that you're hot, smart, witty, but I didn't think you were interested. I'm glad I stopped by. I should have come earlier. Karen, yeah, I was basically begging you. Brian, you don't have to beg me. I'll give you whatever you want. Alright, next thread. Karen. Hey, we're single and we don't have kids. We can do whatever we want.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
brian don't you have a boyfriend karen none of us is married brian true so game on karen we can say whatever we want game on now this next one is a little bit more serious karen says i went from being solo to trying to give attention to kids who aren't mine and i never wanted kids brian i thought you were happy in this relationship
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Karen, it's just a very, very complicated dynamic with the four of us. He isn't cut out for what he's doing, and the kids present constant issues. Brian, I think he believes he's doing the right thing. Karen, well of course he is, but his heart isn't in it. It's only because he was very, very close to his sister. I never got married, and now I'm somehow arguing with someone about raising kids.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Eye roll emoji. I try very hard, but they're very spoiled, and they're not my family. My parents keep telling me I'd feel differently if they were my own, or my own sisters. Then I told you he got drunk and sloppy on New Year's Eve while we were away, and that had really affected me. Brian. What did he do exactly? Karen. He was a puddle all day and then disappeared.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
So I was with the kids celebrating New Year's without him, which shouldn't be my role. Then I found him all over a friend's sister in the lobby of our hotel. And she's gross, which I think might actually be worse. Not sure. Oh god, did they bang? No, I doubt it. He was a mess. But honestly, the issues with the kids bother me more than him actually cheating.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
They're constant, and it feels like a lose-lose. Basically, I just feel like I've spread myself too thin and sometimes it's thankless. Brian, do you plan on leaving him? Karen, I don't have any plans at the moment in either direction. Sometimes I go back and forth. Next text thread. Brian, I'm confused. You don't feel guilty inviting me over? Karen, should I? Brian, I don't know.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Who knows what you feel? Karen, I don't really think I should feel guilty. Brian, dude, I'm just asking. Don't get your thong all twisted up. Karen, you have no impact on my thong. All right, next thread. Karen, John has showed me about five times the ring video of me walking you out. Brian, um, what? Karen, yeah, he has cameras everywhere. You cops. Eye roll emoji. Brian, Jesus.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Karen, he's like, Christ, you guys hooking up? Brian, OMG, great. I don't need drama, dude. You legit planted one on me. Karen, I know where the cameras are anyway, duh. Brian, so your slick move isn't on there? Three question marks. Karen, of course not. Brian, OMG, I almost vomit emoji. Karen, it was just a peck anyway. I kissed Carrie and gay Jeff too. All right, next text thread.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
At this point, Karen is trying to make plans to finally see Brian in person at his house. Brian, I'm up for a drink. Do you really want to come over? Karen, only if you want me to. Brian, can you take charge? Karen, I thought we already settled this. Brian, ha ha. Then just stop by for a drink.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Now there are a couple of more texts where he gives her his address and then the texts stop for a little bit until later that evening when Karen says, home alive, winky face emoji. So we can infer that they did meet up and did who knows what. Maybe it was just a drink. Maybe it was, as Brian would call it, a bang.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
But either way, Karen must not have been very impressed because the next thread isn't until several days later on January 23rd when Brian says, Have not heard from you. Karen, phones work both ways emoji. Brian, thought you were all set. Karen, with talking? No. Brian, hmm, you sure? I knew this is how you would act. Whatever.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
You can get most any guy you want, so you're not losing any sleep over this. Then she didn't reply to that, and the next text isn't for five more days on January 28th at 11.32 p.m., which is when Brian saw Karen walk into the bar with John, and he texted her, um, well? She didn't reply. Then the final text is on January 29th at 11.54 a.m., when Karen says, John died. Okay, that was a whole lot.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
I hope you guys are still with me. Now, something I find interesting is that in the first trial, it was the prosecution who called for these texts to be read. And in this trial, it's the defense. Because the way you interpret these could be different depending on your opinions on the trial, right?
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
If you lean more towards the prosecution side, you might look at these and say, well, geez, here's a woman who's clearly unhappy with her relationship. Clearly cheating, at least to some extent. Could this contribute to a motive for her to want to get rid of her boyfriend so she could be with Brian full-time?
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
But if you lean more towards the defense side, you might instead say, okay, we have a guy who's been attracted to his buddy's girlfriend for a long time. She finally seems to reciprocate for a bit, and then she ghosts. Could that be motive for him to want to get rid of the boyfriend? Could there be some jealousy there?
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
So the fact that it was entered into evidence by the defense suggests that they think the texts make Brian look more guilty than Karen. Will the jury see it that way? What do you guys think? My take? I don't think that these texts make either Karen or Brian look great. But what I don't see is a clear arrow pointing to murder.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
I don't see like the, I'll get rid of him so we can be together, that kind of thing. I don't see that from either side. So are they guilty of cheating? Probably. Bad sexting? Definitely. But murder? I'm not convinced for either one of them. Then Monday the 12th was, yes, another full day of testimony from Sgt. Bukinick. which means this guy was on the stand for three full days.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
We're going to go rapid fire to the most important stuff here for all of our sanity. Rapid fire point one. On cross-examination, Jackson mentioned that a plow driver around the Canton area saw a Ford Edge parked next to 34 Fairview around 2.30 a.m., and then he said that that car was gone when he returned about an hour later.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Now, Buchanick testified that he didn't investigate the Ford Edge further, even though it was known that someone in the Albert family owned that type of car. Next, Jackson brought up that Proctor wrote an affidavit that said that Karen's car was seized by them at 5.30 p.m., but it later came out that the car was actually taken more than an hour earlier at 4.12 p.m.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Little sketchy, little concerning given some of the circumstances of the case. Next, Bucanek testified that he was aware that Proctor had some sort of relationship with the Alberts before they interviewed Chris and Julie Albert, but he said he was fine with keeping Proctor on the case anyway. Alright, next with, what are we at? Rapid Fire Point 4? I think. Alright, 4.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
Jackson showed surveillance footage from different angles around the Canton Police Department, taken at around 1.30am on the night of the incident. From these, basically, we can see someone who Bukinick identified as Brian Higgins milling around the police station, the parking lot, the Sally Port, and that's what they call the police station garage.
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
So he's in his Jeep, he's walking in and around other cars in the lot, he's holding what they call a snow broom, and at one point he's also talking on the phone. So basically the point is, hey, what's this guy doing at the police station this late at night?
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275: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 4: Higgins Late-Night Trip, Cringe Texts, & Public Opinion is Changing
He previously testified that he was moving the cars around in the lot in anticipation for the snow, but he doesn't actually move any of the cars other than his own. He just gets in them and like shuffles around. So again, red flag? I think it could be. Jackson showed a video of the Canton PD Sallyport just after 5 30 p.m on January 29th.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And to me, he asked this to further the defense's argument that Chloe was dangerous, and the Elberts knew it, so they tried to keep her away from strangers whenever possible. Now that brings us to testimony from Katie McLaughlin, an EMT firefighter. Katie was one of the first emergency workers on the scene to treat John, and she testified that Karen told her the infamous, I hit him statement.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now, this is the third witness who's testified to Karen saying, I hit him. We heard paramedic Timothy Nuttall say it, and we have, of course, heard Jen McCabe say it. As I've said before, I think this alleged mission is one of the biggest parts of the prosecution's case. So when it's brought up, we need to pay close attention to how many times she said it, when she said it, and to who she said it.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Because you can bet that the defense is going to bring up all of those aspects. Now, on that note, Katie says that Karen said, I hit him four times. Jen McCabe said that Karen said it three times. In Nodal's first testimony, he said that Karen said it two times. Then in this trial, he's changed it to now back to three times.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now, maybe the witnesses disagreeing on the specific detail of how many times she said it wouldn't be that big of an issue. But the thing is, they're all so adamant that their memories of this particular moment are really vivid. But clearly, they can't all be vividly correct because they disagree.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And get this, Katie says that at the time Karen said, I hit him, Timothy was in the ambulance with the doors closed and the engine on. So how is he so confident that he heard it? Now, here's the other thing about Katie. She has a connection with Caitlin. Wait for it. Albert, Brian Albert's daughter. But the nature of their relationship depends on who you ask.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
If you ask the prosecution, Katie and Caitlin went to high school together, but Katie says, quote, I wouldn't consider her to be a friend of mine. But if you ask the defense, these two follow each other on social media, they go on trips together, they stay overnight at each other's apartments, they attend baby showers together, and there are photos of the two of them together to prove all of this.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now, is it necessarily a huge smoking gun, a definitive proof of corruption, that the firefighter is friends with the homeowner's daughter? No, I don't think so. But the thing is, what makes it look bad is that they're hiding it. If there's nothing going on, why go through all this effort to deny it?
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Then Monday finished off with retired police lieutenant Paul Gallagher, who arrived at 34 Fairview to collect evidence after John had been taken to the hospital. Gallagher found patches of bloody snow and a broken cocktail glass. Now he said his search was thorough, but that he didn't find a shoe, a hat, or any brightly colored taillight pieces.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
He also testified that he didn't see any footprints, dog tracks, or any other sign that John could have been dragged through the snow. And throughout direct and cross-examination, he was asked about how he collected evidence, how the evidence was stored, and how the residence at Fairview was secured and searched.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Let's hit that first point of how the evidence was collected, because this is the part that has a whole lot of people raising their eyebrows. It turns out that Gallagher used a leaf blower to move the snow, and then once he found spots of blood, he scooped that bloody snow, not into evidence containers, but into red Solo cups.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And not even sterile ones, these were ones that he grabbed across the street from his cop buddy. And to top it off, he stored those Solo cups not in an evidence bag, but in a stop-and-shop grocery bag. Now, I understand the weather was bad and this was an emergency, so you could argue that they were doing the best with what they had on hand.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And to that point, Gallagher says, "...I expected it to be John's DNA and I wasn't going to get a second chance on it. It was either collect it or never have it." But remember, Canton PD was only about a mile from 34 Fairview. Ed Gallagher took the time to dispatch one of his officers to go get the leaf blower, but not to get real evidence containers?
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And to the second point, how was the evidence stored once it was back at the police department? Well, according to the defense, the less than ideal treatment of the evidence continued. They showed photos of those uncovered, unsealed solo cups of blood just sitting out in the open in the police station's garage. And not just anywhere in the garage, they were right on the ground next to Karen's SUV.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Jackson called this a quote, recipe for cross-contamination. And I'm inclined to agree. During the third main thread of questioning, Gallagher said that he never asked any of the neighbors for security footage from the night of the incident. even though he admitted that he knew the neighbor across the street definitely had a working doorbell camera.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And furthermore, he said that while he was briefly inside the house at 34 Fairview, he never searched it, and he maintained that he never had any reason to do so, even though he acknowledged that at that time there was a possibility that John might have been involved in some sort of fight. Now throughout the day on Tuesday the 6th, the prosecution played more clips from Karen's various interviews.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
In one interview, Karen says, quote, When John got out of the car at Brian Albert's house, he took my full vodka soda. And I think this is the prosecution answering the question of where did those cocktail glass shards come from? They say that they came from a glass that John was holding. In another clip, Karen says, quote, I didn't think I hit him hit him, but could I have clipped him?
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Could I have clipped him in the knee? Incapacitated him? He didn't look mortally wounded as far as I could see, but could I have done something that knocked him out and in his drunkenness and in the cold he didn't come to again? Now this clip, I do think it's a strong point for the prosecution.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Because while she's not saying, you know, I definitively hit him as a declarative statement or anything, she's speculating, and strongly speculating, I'd say, that she could have hit John. And we have to think about this from the jury's point of view. They're seeing this and they're potentially thinking, well, Karen herself thinks she could have done it.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
We have her lawyers making their case on the fact that there's no collision, but now the jury is looking at evidence of the defendant saying, well, maybe there was a collision. And I think that difference is a serious problem for the defense. Now, the next witness for the prosecution was meteorologist Robert Gilman.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
and I think the prosecution called him mainly to establish that the ground was completely frozen at that time, meaning that maybe a hit to the head on that hard ground could have killed somebody.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
But I also think Gilman provided some decent points for the defense, because he testified that at around 1am on the night of the incident, snow was only falling at around 3 tenths of an inch per hour, and visibility was 1.25 miles.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And he agreed that at that time, which was around the time of Jen McCabe's lookout mission, and around the time that some of the partygoers started to leave the house, he said that someone should have been able to see something laying only 30 feet away. Then Nicholas Garino retook the stand for the final time. We've heard from him throughout the trial.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
He's a state trooper and he's in charge of cell phone extractions. He testified that on the night of the incident, there were 34 unanswered calls from Karen to John, as well as eight voicemails and two texts. I'll read a couple of them. At 12.37am, Karen left a voicemail saying, quote, John, I effing hate you. At 12.59am, she said, John, I'm here with your effing kids.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
No one knows where the eff you are, you effing pervert. At 1.10am, she left a voicemail saying, you're effing using me right now. You're effing another girl. Now, is it a good look to be throwing eff bombs at your boyfriend, who it turns out was dead or dying at the time? No. But it's so bad of a look that I almost think it comes back around and helps the defense.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And what I mean by that is that if she intentionally and knowingly killed him, which is what that second-degree murder charge says, would she really go call him to scream at him? If she were trying to use these calls to establish an alibi, I would imagine she'd try to come off as a little bit more loving, wouldn't you?
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
As is, I think the messages are so raw and so vulgar that they actually come across as genuine emotion and help Karen's case. And Guarino's testimony did sneak in one more very important tidbit. One that I really hammered home earlier in the video, and that's the fact that Karen connected to John's Wi-Fi at 12.37am.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And he also testified that her phone would have been, at most, 300 feet from the home at that point. So now we know A, we have direct evidence refuting Jen McCabe's testimony that Karen's SUV was still at 34 Fairview at 12.45am. And B, the window that Karen could have hit John is getting really small.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Like, we have mere minutes between when Ryan Nagel and Heather Maxson put her safely driving up to 34 Fairview, and when her phone puts her back at John's house. Then after Garena, we heard brief testimony from Lieutenant Charles Ray, who did a well-being check on John's niece and nephew in the morning of the incident.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Then the final witness on Tuesday was Lieutenant Kevin O'Hara, who helped search for evidence outside of 34 Fairview a couple of hours after the incident. He said that his team found a sneaker and six or seven pieces of taillight that matched Karen's Lexus. Now remember, Gallagher and his trusty leaf blower, they didn't find any taillight pieces a couple of hours earlier.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
But regardless of that, throughout the trials, I've always thought that the taillight evidence, along with the witnesses saying that Karen said I hit him, are the strongest pieces of the prosecution's evidence.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
I personally see holes in each of those that I think cast reasonable doubt on them, but nonetheless, I do think they're the best thing the prosecution has, so I'm always curious to see how the defense will handle them.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And in this case, Jackson didn't really go after O'Hara's background or his methods of evidence collecting or anything like that, but he instead went the route of showing that there could have been opportunity for someone else to plant evidence. Jackson said, quote, For some time before you got there, the scene could have been accessed by anyone.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
He also pointed out that there were at least six people at the scene at the time who were not from Kevin's team, and he got Kevin to admit that he saw no crime scene tape, barricades, or police presence that could have prevented someone else from accessing the scene.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And while I do think that Jackson made some good points, I personally think that the defense still has a lot more work to do when it comes to discrediting this taillight evidence. I do think it's a lot to just ask the jury to buy into the police straight up planting evidence.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And while I think the defense has made some headway in showing that there was opportunity for someone to do so, I don't think that the opportunity is enough, so I think we should expect to hear more tail light talk from both sides. Then we kicked off Wednesday with State Trooper Connor Keefe briefly taking a stand for the prosecution. Now that's the last name Keefe, not O'Keefe, keep that in mind.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And he showed jurors John's shoe, as well as two pieces of clear teralite that he helped process at the scene. On cross-examination, he was hesitant to admit that he had ever worked with Michael Proctor. I can't say I really blame him there, I wouldn't want to be associated with Proctor. But he eventually admitted that he and Proctor did interview Sarah Levinson together.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Keefe also observed John's autopsy performed by the Commonwealth Medical Examiner and the defense said, quote, you left without her ruling at a homicide, correct? That question was objected to and the objection was sustained, but we know that this is true and the defense was making the point early. Next we heard from Jessica Hyde, a digital forensics examiner.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And if you thought you heard the last of House Long to Die in Cold, buckle up because we heard about it for hours more. And similar to the testimony from the prosecution's other digital forensics expert that was Ian Whiffen, this testimony was very long, it was very technical, so I'm here to try to give a high-level summary.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
In the TLDR is that Hyde agrees with Whiffen's findings that Jen McCabe searched House Long to Die in Cold between 6 and 7, not between 2 and 3. And to support her argument, she explained that a single search can leave multiple artifacts in different places on a phone, and an artifact is like a digital footprint.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Hyde said that Jen's search left multiple footprints, but only one of them is associated with the 2-27 timestamp. The rest point to the 6-23 timestamp. Now, Alessi pointed out on cross-examination that her stance on this issue has changed somewhat since the case started. In a May 2023 report, she said that the search was associated with a timestamp of 2-27-40.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And likewise, in the first trial last year, when asked whether she could definitively rule out that the search happened at 2-27, she said that it was unlikely, but that she couldn't rule it out completely. Now, you'll also remember that Whiffen testified that Jen's searches were deleted by the phone itself, not by the user.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Hyde agreed, and she even said that the user can't delete a tab even if they wanted to. They can close a tab, they can delete a search, but they cannot delete a tab. And she said the reason that the tab appears to be deleted is because it was living in what's called the write-ahead log. This is an intermediate database within a phone that basically holds incoming and outgoing information.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
So in other words, it contains both deleted data and data that hasn't yet been delivered to a specific database. And because of that distinction, Hyde said that it's wrong to assume that data has been deleted just because it's living in this intermediate database. And likewise, she had an explanation for why the seven alleged butt dials from Jen to John appeared to be deleted from Jen's phone.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Hyde said that Jen's model of iPhone can store up to 200 recent calls at once, before it automatically deletes the oldest one. And she testified that the calls from John were behind that 200th call. They were therefore removed by the phone, not by Jen. Now at this point, the jury has heard so much house long to die and cold talk that I can only imagine what their take is.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
If I had to guess, since they've now heard two experts say that it occurred between 6 and 7, not 2 and 3, I would imagine they're leaning in that direction, but who knows if that will change when the defense calls their cell phone experts. The thing I want to point out is that this is kind of devolved into a trial within a trial.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And what I mean by that is that whenever House Long is brought up, suddenly the defense becomes the ones that are prosecuting Jen, and the prosecution become the ones defending her. And sticking with that analogy, if the jury finds Jen quote-unquote guilty of making the search at 2.27, it is probably game over for the prosecution.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
But if they find her innocent and may agree that the search was at 6.23, they're still at square one when it comes to Karen's guilt. Do you see what I mean? Like this mini trial we're having for Jen, yes, it's important, but it doesn't actually answer any fundamental questions about Karen's guilt.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And on that note, we ended the day with the prosecution playing another clip from Karen's interviews, where she says, quote, Jen McCabe, it's me or her. Either I'm going down, Jen, or you are. Now that brings us to Thursday, which was dedicated to testimony from Yuri Buchanek, a Massachusetts state police sergeant and the supervisor of none other than Michael Proctor at the time of the incident.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now right off the bat, we heard something interesting. Buchanek stated that his understanding was that Karen had made statements quote, questioning if she had hit him, which is more in line with the defense's stance that Karen was making interrogative statements, in other words those are questions, about hitting John, not declarative statements.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now Buchanek also testified to observing the injuries on John's body at the hospital, which included some blood pooling under his head, blood and swelling in both eyes, small cuts to his face, and abrasions or cuts to his right arm. He said that he found a pile of John's clothes, including a sweatshirt, shirt, and pants, which he showed to the jury.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
He also testified to finding one of John's shoes at the hospital, But there was a little bit of a slip-up when he was showing it to the jury. The prosecution brought him an evidence bag and asked Bukinik if this is the shoe he recovered from the hospital. And he's like, nope, that's not it. That's the shoe that was found at 34 Fairview, John's other shoe.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Then the judge called a break, and when they returned, Bukinik was again asked, and now he was like, yes, this is the hospital shoe, not the 34 Fairview shoe. So a bit of a blunder, it could have been an honest mistake, but in a case where evidence management is already under such heavy scrutiny, I do think these little things could add up for the jury.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now, after the hospital, Bukinick and Proctor visited Karen at her parents' house. And at that time, he said that her car was missing a large chunk of its rear right taillight. So they seized Karen's phone and car and brought the car to the garage at the Canton Police Department.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Even though Canton PD had already been removed from the investigation at this point because of the connection between Brian Albert and Kevin Albert, a Canton PD officer. Now, Buchanick testified that he never touched Karen's car once it was in the Canton PD garage, and he said that he never saw Proctor touch it either.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now, to be clear on the timeline, Buchanick says that they got Karen's SUV at around 4.15. O'Hara from the search team arrived to 34 Fairview at 4.56 p.m., and his team found that first piece of taillight at... 5.45 p.m. So if evidence was planted, which is what the defense is alleging, the time period for that to happen is not terribly wide. We're talking only about 45 minutes.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
But speaking of people who might plant evidence, the prosecution tried to get ahead of questions that they knew the defense might ask about Proctor. So on direct examination, they asked Bukinick about his relationship with Proctor, and he admitted that he was on a text thread with Proctor and others where Proctor made comments on the case.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Three of those read, quote, funny, I'm going through his r-word client's phone. No nudes yet. And then, I hate that man, I truly hate him, which is in reference to defense lawyer David Yannetti.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Bukinik said he sent a thumbs up emoji in response, and as a result of these texts and others, we know that Proctor was fired and Bukinik admitted that he was found guilty of, quote, failing to properly supervise and or counsel a subordinate, and his punishment lost five days of vacation time.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now, lastly, we saw a lot of media, including videos and photos of Karen's car, which Bukinik described as missing a taillight in the photos, videos, as well as from his own firsthand knowledge. And we also saw surveillance footage from the bars that show Karen ordering and consuming a number of drinks.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now, after direct examination, both Bukinik and Jackson for the defense got a little bit testy on cross-examination, I will say. To kick it off, Bukinik was really resistant to saying that Proctor was the lead investigator on the case. And then he was really resistant to saying that Proctor was involved in many aspects of the case. And to be honest, I got some Jen McCabe vibes here.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
I think that Jen and Bukinick both give off this aura that's like refusing to admit that the defense is right about anything. And to me, sorry, it looks a little shifty and I think the jury will be smart enough to see that. So after we finally established that Proctor was heavily involved in the case, Jackson asked if the investigation was done properly.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And Bukinick said, quote, this investigation was conducted professionally, "...with integrity, and all evidence collected, all the statements collected, pointed in one direction. There was no biased influence on the evidence, on the information that was collected, or which the direction the investigation pointed."
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Jackson then said, quote, do you believe that Micah Proctor's involvement in this case tainted the investigation? End quote. Buchanick said no. And then after some pushing some back and forth about the exact wording, he says, the investigation was handled with integrity by Michael Proctor. That was a quote.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now, just to refresh your memory, that's the same Michael Proctor who said, quote, funny, I'm going through his R Word client's phone. No nudes so far. So that's what honor and integrity mean to the state police, apparently.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now, another important point from Cross, Bukinick admitted that early in the investigation, he thought it was possible that John was involved in some sort of fight, like getting hit in the face with a cocktail glass. But he admitted that he didn't secure the house at 34 Fairview and only interviewed three of the partygoers from that night.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And he also admitted that a report about the incident wasn't written until almost a year and a half later. Jackson also pointed out that there was no chain of custody log for John's clothes for the time that the state police had them.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And throughout this and other discussions of the evidence, Jackson was always quick to point out that Proctor was involved at every turn, that he always had access to all the evidence. And that's consistent with the defense's opening argument, opening statement rather, that Proctor had his hands literally and figuratively all over this case.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And again, that's because the defense wants the jury to view the case and all of the evidence through the lens of Proctor was biased. That was the end of the day on Thursday, but it wasn't the end of Cross. And I think we can expect a lot more back and forth between Bukinick and Jackson.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
I'll wait to the end of his testimony to give my final reading on Bukinik, but for now, I put him pretty high on the evasive scale. Just my opinion. Now with all of this Proctor talk, a lot of people have been wondering when he'll take the stand. I personally don't think the prosecution is going to call him at all because I don't think it would help their case any.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
It could even hurt it, given all that's come out about Proctor. So I think we'll have to wait for the defense to call him. Now, on that note, Karen herself said on Wednesday that the prosecution is, quote, almost over. So it's possible that they'll be wrapping up soon. We'll have to wait and see what happens next week, Annie. Talk to you later.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Hey, Annie. Now we're officially three weeks into the Karen Reed retrial. And given that it was originally scheduled for six to eight weeks, it's safe to say we're approaching the halfway point. First, some general updates to the case.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
On Monday, we learned that Judge Cannone has granted the motion to prohibit references to the Sandra Birchmore case, unless that door is opened during other testimony. Now, if you're not familiar, Sandra was a pregnant woman who was found dead in Canton in 2021. It was originally ruled a self-inflicted, but federal prosecutors have said that she was actually killed by a Stoughton police detective.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now, the defense wanted to bring up the case here as it involves some of the same officers. But the prosecution said, quote, testimony about this unrelated death investigation would result in a trial within a trial. with much of the information being inadmissible, confidential, or offered without proper foundation.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And it seems like the judge agreed, but it's still possible that the case could come up if a witness mentions it in other types of testimony. So picking up on Friday, May 2nd, we continue with the contentious cross-examination of Jen McCabe. We went through lots of lines of questioning, and I want to hit on four of the big ones.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
First, Jackson started by clarifying with Jen when she last saw Karen's SUV in front of 34 Fairview. Now, Jen said she isn't exactly sure, but Jackson breaks out her testimony from 2023, where she said she last saw it at around 1245 a.m. Now, this might not seem like a huge deal yet, but we should keep that timestamp in mind.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Because in the first trial, evidence was shown to suggest that Karen connected to John's Wi-Fi by around 1236 or 1237 a.m. And I think it's interesting that given this wifi timestamp data, Jen has changed her stance from, it was definitely 1245 AM when I last saw the SUV, to, I'm not really sure. Alan then had Jen retext between herself,
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
her husband Matt McCabe, her sister Nicole Albert, and her brother-in-law Brian Albert. Here are a couple of the most interesting. On February 1st, we have a text from Matt McCabe to the group where he's referring to the Channel 4 news crew that apparently showed up at Chris Albert's restaurant. Matt says, quote, ask Chris to ask some questions. Tell them the guy never went into the house.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now two things stick out to me. First, keep in mind that this is three days after John's death, and Matt is referring to John as, quote, the guy. Supposedly, according to Jen, John was very close to her and her family, but according to Matt, he's just the guy. Couldn't even use his name. Second, we have the full line. Tell them the guy never went in the house.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now is this just Matt innocently reminding everyone of the important facts of the case? Or is this Matt instructing everyone to stick to their story, to stick to their lie? And if it is innocent, if this is what really happened, why did Matt even feel the need to say it? Wouldn't they just know if that's the real story?
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now next there's a set of texts from when Carrie Roberts was at the McCabe house and was being interviewed about the incident. Here, Jen texts the group, quote, she's telling him everything, in all caps, all the stuff. Then there's a couple of texts in between about the interview. And then Matt says, going to miss the basketball game at this rate.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
So we know that at the very least, Jen and Matt were listening in on and gossiping about Carrie's interview. And second, we've learned again that Matt is cold. John's been gone for three days, first Matt says he's just the guy, and now that there are important interviews about the death happening, Matt is only concerned with missing his basketball game.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Another highlight of Cross was Jackson asking about the seven calls from Jen's phone to John's phone just after 12 15 a.m on the night of the incident. And this question brought us our first instance of someone on the stand testifying to making butt dials. Now we have two interesting things about these alleged butt dials. First, all seven of them were deleted from Jen's phone.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And second, none of the calls went to voicemail. They were manually ended by the caller. Now this means that Jen not only butt dialed John seven times in a row, She also but hung up each call exactly after it finished ringing. So we're talking about at least 14 distinct, perfectly timed instances of but to phone contact if we're to believe Jen's testimony.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now there's one last line of cross-examination that I want to discuss. Alan asks Jen why she didn't run into the house and grab her brother-in-law Brian Albert, a trained first responder, and have him help John. Then Alan goes a step further and points out, hey, someone's dead on your sister's front lawn. She's not answering her phone.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Did you think to go in and check to see if she herself was in danger? And to this, Jen says, I didn't because your client was screaming that she hit him. She had a cracked taillight. She was crying. Here she's sort of implying that she, Jen, immediately figured out that John was hit by a car, but she didn't have any reason to worry about her sister.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Jackson counters this and says, quote, Jen's answer, quote, Now that's a bit of a contradiction from two lines earlier when she said she immediately knew it was a car accident. Slip of the tongue, miscommunication. Or did Jackson catch her in a lie here? So after Cross, here are my final thoughts on Jen. I don't know if she's lying, if she's covering something up.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
I don't think any of us can really know for sure. But what I will say is that to me, she comes across as if she's more concerned with siding with the prosecution and disagreeing with the defense than she is with telling the truth of what actually happened.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now, that doesn't mean she's actually being untruthful, but I do think it makes her an unreliable witness, and I'm curious to see if the jury will see it the same way. Now, after finally finishing with all things McCabe, we heard from the prosecution's 13th witness, Hannah Knowles, who's a forensic scientist.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Knowles testified that given Karen's blood alcohol level of .093% at 9 a.m., she would have had a blood alcohol between .14% and .28% at 12.45 a.m., which is more than three times the Massachusetts legal limit of .08%. On cross-examination, the defense brought up the possibility that Karen could have had additional alcohol after 12.45 a.m. when she returned to John's house.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And Knowles admitted that if this were true, quote, the foundations of my calculations would be incorrect. Then on Monday, we went through a number of the prosecution's witnesses rather quickly. We heard from Ryan Nagel. Ryan is the brother of Julie Nagel, who was at 34 Fairview the night of the incident for Brian Elbert Jr. 's birthday party.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
So we have Ryan, his then-girlfriend Heather Maxson, and his friend Ricky, who drove to 34 Fairview around 12.30 a.m. to pick up Julie. Ryan testified that as Ricky's truck approached Fairview, he could see a black SUV that ended up turning onto Fairview just before they did.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now, he said that the SUV wasn't speeding and appeared to be operating safely, and he said he didn't notice any pieces missing from the car's taillight. Now, here's something interesting. Ryan said that he never saw anyone exit the SUV, and he never saw anyone laying on the ground. But he was also firm that the passenger seat was empty. So in his version of events, where was John?
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
This testimony was followed up by testimony from Ryan's now ex-girlfriend, girlfriend at the time, Heather Maxson. Again, she was in the car with Ryan and Ricky during the trip to pick up Julie from Fairview. And her testimony was mostly identical to Ryan's, except she said she did see a male in the passenger seat.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now, regardless of whether you believe that Ryan was correct and John wasn't in the car, or you believe that Heather was correct and John was in the car, the point is they both saw Karen arrive at Fairview shortly before 1230. And they remained there for at least a couple of minutes and they didn't observe any sort of accident.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
Now I bring this up because if it is in fact true that Karen connected to John's Wi-Fi by around 12.37am, the time window that she could have hit him is getting really, really narrow. Now the next witness was Sarah Levinson. Sarah was at the house also celebrating Brian Elbow Jr. 's birthday. And Sarah left the party with Jen and Matt McCabe between 1.30 and 2 a.m.
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272: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 3: Solo Cups, Butt Dials & Witnesses Scramble to Cut Ties with the Alberts/Proctor
And she testified that at that time, she didn't see anything unusual or body-like in the yard at this time. Then on cross-examination, Jackson brought up that Sarah had apparently been to 34 Fairview around 20 times, but she had never met their German shepherd, Chloe.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
Outside the courthouse, reporters asked her if she thought that Dever was bribed or threatened or coaxed by the police or something, something to change her testimony. And she said, quote, I didn't suggest it. She did. She was called into the Boston Police Commissioner's office, and then her story completely changed. She recanted.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
Then the final witness on Monday and going into Tuesday was Dr. Marie Russell. She's a retired emergency room doctor and a forensic pathologist with a special interest in dog bites. She said she's overseen more than 50 death investigations as a medical officer at a prison, and she's also both a professor and a cop, so she's really done it all.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
She says she's seen at least 500 dog bite cases in her career, and using that knowledge, she said confidently that the injuries to John's arm were a result of a dog attack. She talked about the different patterns in the arm wounds and called them, quote, highly specific for a dog attack, although that last word attack was not allowed by the judge.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
Dr. Russell also added that the position of the cuts suggests that they were defensive wounds, meaning that John sort of put his arms up to protect himself from something, exposing the area that ultimately got injured.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
Russell also testified that the injuries on John's arm happened before he died because they showed what's called a vital reaction, which is inflammation around the edges of a wound that can only happen when the injured person is still alive.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
And she added that John's overall injuries are inconsistent with being hit by a car, particularly because he didn't have any bruises or fractures to his lower extremities.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
And finally, she said that hole on John's hoodie, that one I pointed out in the recap a couple of weeks ago, the one that was about the size of the tip of a finger with the fraying around the edges, she said in her opinion, that was made by a canine tooth. Then Brennan stepped up for Cross.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
Now, like I said last week, because Brennan spent so much of his career as a defense attorney, I think he's much stronger on Cross than on Direct. Not that he's any, like, less annoying to listen to, because I still find him kind of infuriating on cross at times, but I do think he's much better at making his points on cross than on direct.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
Brennan first got Dr. Russell to admit that she's never testified before as an expert on dog bites, but she's since advertised herself as a trial expert, and she's used a photo of herself testifying in the first trial to sort of promote her services.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
Attorney Brennan also took issue with Dr. Russell's claim that she's uniquely qualified to testify in this case, and he pointed out that she hasn't earned any certificates or attended any seminars on the specific topic of dog bite pattern recognition.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
But Dr. Russell doubled down, saying that she's the only doctor that she knows of who's done residencies in emergency medicine and forensic pathology, and who has, quote, a lifelong interest in dog bites.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
Then when Brennan pointed out that the medical examiner found that John's arm injuries were superficial with no puncture or depth, Dr. Russell said that that's actually consistent with her own conclusions that they're dog bites. Remember, the prosecution's medical examiner, Dr. Scordibello, wasn't allowed to answer if she thought that John's injuries were consistent with a dog attack.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
So it is very possible that both doctors would agree that these are dog bites. Now, Dr. Russell also admitted that her stance has changed somewhat since the first trial. The first trial, she gave a more conservative testimony that the injuries were from some sort of interaction with an animal, and it could be from either teeth or nails. But she says since, she's done more research.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
So, quote, my degree of certainty perhaps increased. Now, I will say, it's a little ironic that Brennan, of all people, is upset with witnesses slightly changing their testimony between trials. Because he's the one calling up people like Carrie Roberts, who changed her testimony about whether or not she heard Karen tell Jen to go go hypothermia.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
He's called up Timothy Nuttall, who changed his testimony about whether or not John was wearing a jacket. I could go on. And to me, those are bigger changes than what Dr. Russell did in changing her stance of, you know, some animal's teeth or nails to her now more specific stance of dog teeth.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
It would be a bigger deal to me if she first said that the injuries were from a car crash and then totally changed her mind to dog teeth. But that's not the case. She's just going from a general claim to more specific. But nonetheless, as cross-examination continued into Tuesday, Brennan got even more heated.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
He asked if Dr. Russell had talked to the defense team since her testimony the day before, and she admitted that she did, specifically that Attorney Alessi told her to always ask for a transcript during cross-examination.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
Dr. Russell also admitted that someone from Attorney Alessi's office had helped her with organizing her report, but when she couldn't recall specifically who had helped her, Brennan asked her with this sort of sassy tone, do you have memory issues? And Dr. Russell literally gasped out loud at that. She was clearly offended because you could tell that Brennan wasn't asking this in good faith.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
He was clearly taking a cheap shot at her age, and I thought that was really uncalled for. Then Brennan pointed out that the underside of John's arm didn't have any injuries, which he argued shows that they weren't caused by a dog because a dog's mouth is, quote, like a lever.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
But Dr. Russell said it's actually possible for only the upper jaw to hit the skin, which would leave the underside uninjured. Now, there was another tense moment when Dr. Russell was asked about the holes in John's hoodie and whether they had been swabbed for DNA.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
Because right after Brennan asked this, Alessi stood up and said, quote, The defense moves strongly, vigorously for a mistrial with prejudice. His argument was that since the prosecution didn't call their dog DNA expert during their case, they don't have any basis to bring it up during Dr. Russell's cross-examination.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
But unsurprisingly, the judge denied the motion and allowed the prosecution to continue with their line of questioning. And Dr. Russell confirmed that the holes in the hoodie didn't contain any dog DNA, but they did contain pig DNA, which a lot of people think could be from dog treats. And finally, Brennan confronted her with a report from Dr. John Walsh.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
And that report said that John's arm injuries could not have been the result of a dog attack. But Dr. Russell argued that Walsh works in a military clinic, so his knowledge of dog bites might be less or smaller in scope than hers as an ER doctor. Now overall, I thought that Dr. Russell held up well against cross-examination, and she proved to be a pretty solid witness for the defense.
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285: Proctor Thought Death Was Caused by Fight & Proof Tail Light Was Smashed in The Sally Port?!
Remember, it's on the prosecution to prove that the injuries were from a tail light, not necessarily on the defense to prove that the injuries were from a dog bite. All the defense has to do is bring up enough doubt in the jurors' minds. And if those jurors aren't totally sure that the injuries came from a taillight, it might be hard for them to convict.
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Now the next witness for the defense was Dighton Police Sergeant Nicholas Barros. And I was honestly surprised to see him on the defense's witness list, because he was called by the prosecution in the first trial. But it turns out Sergeant Barros had testimony that I think was actually a huge win for the defense.
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On January 29th, he joined Michael Proctor and Yuri Buchanik as they towed Karen's car from her parents' house in Dayton. At the time of the towing, Karen's taillight had, quote, a crack missing, but was not completely damaged. And Barrows went on to specify that the one piece that was missing was only about the size of a dollar bill.
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And then when Jackson showed a picture of Karen's car at Canton PD and asked if that was consistent with the taillight damage that Barrows originally saw, he said, quote, Absolutely not. That taillight is completely smashed out. So to me, this is huge. We have a police sergeant who's courageous enough to basically be a whistleblower to go against the Canton police, the state police.
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and more or less the entire town of Canton and say, hey, that's not right. That taillight in the Canton PD garage is not the same as when we picked up the car from Karen's house. I've said before that I think the taillight evidence is one of the most problematic pieces of the puzzle for the defense.
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Because I can imagine a juror asking themselves, well, okay, if Karen didn't hit John, how did her tail light get all over 34 Fairview? We know, of course, the defense's answer to that question is that it got there because it was planted by the state police. And I think that's kind of a tough jump for 12 jurors to make.
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But honestly, the defense has done a good job of building the foundation for it and giving the jurors the tools they might need to make that jump. They got Gallagher to admit that he and his trusty leaf blower didn't find any pieces of taillight on the initial search. They got Lieutenant Kevin O'Hara to admit that the scene was not closed off, completely accessible to anybody.
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They established a timeline that shows there was this chunk of time between the state police seizing the car and the taillight fragment appearing on the lawn. We've got that Sally Port video that shows Proctor was messing around in the area of the right taillight, and they showed that it was inverted, maybe on purpose.
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And now we've got an eyewitness, a cop nonetheless, who's testifying that the taillight was way more damaged in Canton PD than it was in Cairns Driveway. All that together, they just might be able to convince 12 jurors that this is a conspiracy. Now, to be completely fair, Brennan did make some decent points on Cross.
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He first got Barrows to admit that he didn't actually see either Proctor or Buchanick actually touch or damage the taillight in any sort of way. Although I will say that doesn't necessarily disprove anything, because the defense is saying that they manipulated it or broke it or whatever at or on the way to Canton PD, not there in Dighton in the driveway.
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And Brennan also pointed out that Barros didn't really name the specifics of the damage to Karen's taillight in his report. He said that it had damage, but he didn't write anything about the size or the extent or the specific location of where the damage was. So it is a little bit hard to know for sure exactly what he saw.
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And Barros also admitted that his testimony has changed a bit since the last time he testified. Like I said, in the last trial, Barros was actually called by the prosecution. And at that time, he didn't testify to any difference between his observations in Cairns Driveway and in Canton PD. So of course, as we've said, changing your testimony, it never looks good.
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Whether it's because someone genuinely forgets what happened, or they lied the first time, or they've been paid off so now they're going to lie the second time. Whatever it is, it's not a good look. I get it.
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But what I want to point out is that unlike a lot of the other witnesses who have changed their testimony in this case, Barros doesn't really stand to gain anything for changing his testimony besides maybe a clean conscience. Remember, he's employed as a police sergeant in Dayton, just 30 miles away from Canton. And in some ways, he's probably putting his livelihood on the line here.
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And what does he really gain in return? It's not like he's paid one of these giant lump sums like the expert witnesses are or anything like that. So in my opinion, he has nothing to gain and everything to lose by speaking out. And yet he did it anyway, and that's what makes me believe him. Then on Wednesday, we moved on to another really important witness for the defense.
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This was Brian Loughran, who goes by the nickname Lucky. Lucky was working as a snowplow driver in the early morning hours of John's death. And during that time, he plowed past 34 Fairview several times. He said on his initial passes, which were between about 2.40 a.m. and 3 a.m., he said he had a clear view of the entire lawn and that flagpole area, and he saw absolutely nothing.
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Certainly not John's 6-foot, 200-pound body. Then by the time he came back for another pass around 3.30 a.m., He said that it was snowing more heavily, but he still had a good view of the flagpole. And again, he saw nothing in that lawn area. But he did notice something, and that was a Ford Edge truck parked in the road outside the house. And he said that stood out to him for a couple of reasons.
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First, he said that the Alberts never really parked their car in the road because they had quite a bit of parking right there in their driveway. And two, parking like that is actually against the rules during a snow emergency. And Lucky was supposed to report it, but he chose not to report Brian Albert because he himself is a police officer.
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The prosecution's cross-examination of Lucky focused on how pressure from the media, particularly from Turtle Boy, could have maybe affected his testimony. Now, in case you're not familiar, Aiden Kearney, aka Turtle Boy, he's been a huge presence online and offline throughout both trials.
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And depending on who you ask, he should either be hailed as a hero for bringing media attention to the case or thrown in jail for intimidating witnesses. According to Lucky, though, Turtle Boy has never threatened him. He did admit that some people online were posting unsavory photos of himself and his family, and he said he found that aggravating.
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And he said he felt relieved when he was, quote, embraced rather than attacked after testifying for the defense in the first trial. But he also said he didn't really have that much time to give thought to the media either way, because the poor guy was dealing with the death of his wife.
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Now, I can't speak for what Turtle Boy or his following have or have not said about Lucky, or any of the other witnesses for that matter, and how it could affect their testimonies. But what I do want to point out is that Lucky gave his initial statement to the defense lawyers well before Turtle Boy even started posting about him.
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Then Brennan also tried to show that Lucky might not have been paying very good attention to the road while he was plowing. And he did this by asking which yard on the road of Fairview had a dumpster that morning. When Lucky said he didn't see any dumpster at all, Brennan then showed the jury dash cam video of a dumpster across the street from 34 Fairview.
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On redirect though, Lucky was able to point out that the Ford Edge stuck out more to him than a dumpster would because of the reasons we just talked about. Because the Albert's never parked there before, and because it was against the rules, and it forced him to have to physically maneuver his plow around it in a weird way.
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So it's not so far-fetched to think that he could recall that, but not a dumpster that was well into someone's yard that didn't require him to move around it. Overall, I thought that Lucky stood up well to Cross, even as Brennan kept, you know, trying to trick him. And honestly, I think it's hard not to trust Lucky. He's a widow and he's clearly a hard-working guy.
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He works as a snowplow driver, a Zamboni driver, and a food delivery driver. And I think a good portion of the jurors are going to find this normal, blue-collar kind of guy to be reliable and trustworthy. And it's also worth noting that Lucky has known all six Albert brothers since they were children.
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You could argue he does have something to lose by testifying for the defense, by going against the almighty Albert family. And just like Sergeant Barrows, he did it anyway, and I think that says a lot about his character. And finally, we heard briefly from Karina Kalakifis.
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She's friends with Jen McCabe and was at the waterfall with Jen, John, Karen, and the rest of the old Canton gang on the night of the incident. She testified that on that night, Karen and John were very affectionate to each other.
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They were so affectionate, in fact, that when John kissed Karen on the forehead, Karina looked over at her husband and said, hey, why don't you ever do that kind of nice thing to me? She called it, quote, the sweetest thing I've ever seen.
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Karina also said that although Karen had been drinking, she didn't appear to be really impaired in any way, and she had, quote, no concerns about her driving home that night. Then on Friday, we got started with the much-anticipated testimony from ARCA. The first ARCA witness was Dr. Daniel Wolfe, who's the director of accident reconstruction.
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On direct, it was clear that attorney Jackson wanted the jury to know that Dr. Wolfe and ARCA were not hired by the defense initially. We know that the ARCA experts were originally hired by outside federal investigators, but all the jury is allowed to know in this trial is that the experts were hired by some sort of outside entity.
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Then Dr. Wolf testified to two main types of testing that his group did to try to figure out if the damage to Karen's car and the injuries to John's body were consistent with being in a collision.
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In the first type of test, Dr. Wolf wanted to see if the damage to Karen's taillight could have been caused by something other than hitting John, specifically whether throwing a cocktail glass at that taillight could cause the damage. So his team designed a cannon, a literal cannon, that could launch cocktail glasses at different model tail lights.
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And he found that firing the cocktail glass at 37 miles per hour could cause damage to the tail light that was consistent with what was found on Karen's car. Then when asked to compare his test to Dr. Welcher's blue paint test, Dr. Wolf pointed out that Welcher only showed that it was possible for John's arm and the taillight to align at the same height.
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But the test doesn't really prove much else besides that. It doesn't show what kind of force would be generated or what kind of injuries it might cause.
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Then in his second series of tests, Dr. Wolf used a Lexus that was the same model as Karen's, along with a crash dummy and a special dummy arm, and he used these to try to model what a collision between the car and the arm would look like at different speeds. He did the tests at 10, 15, 17, 24, and 29 miles per hour.
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and he experimented with other variables too like suspending the dummy arm from either a forklift or attaching it to the crash dummy and then trying both head-on and sideswipe type collisions and he testified that all of his tests at all speeds and no matter how the crash arm was positioned all of those tests showed that the damage to the example tail light was quote completely inconsistent with the damage to karen's tail light
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And he said that the damage to the clothing on the crash arm was also inconsistent with the tears to John's clothes. In particular, he noted that the diffusers that are inside of Karen's taillight were completely broken, which didn't occur in any of his tests. And likewise, John's hoodie had puncture marks and holes on it that were not found in his tests either.
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After that, I thought that Brennan did an okay job of cross-examining Dr. Wolf, but probably not good enough to discredit him or his findings, or make him look worse than Dr. Welcher, honestly. One point we knew Brennan would make is that the defense team asked Dr. Wolf to communicate with them over Signal, which is an encrypted app that doesn't save messages.
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And Wolf also admitted to deleting between 50 and 100 text messages between himself and the defense team, But he argued that that was just a normal part of his routine after a case was done. Now, I'm not sure how much weight the jury will give that. It is a little sketchy. Is it sketchier than all of the communication going on with the prosecution witnesses?
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You know, the butt dials and everything? Probably not. Brennan also took issue with the fact that in previous proceedings, Dr. Wolfe gave the defense a list of questions that he would like to be asked and also said how he would answer those questions. Attorney Brennan tried to frame it like it was a script, like Dr. Wolfe was pre-writing these questions to intentionally mislead the jury.
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And maybe there's some truth to that, but I also don't think it's that strange for one of these paid expert witnesses to make an outline of what's important to emphasize during direct examination. And again, I could be totally off base here.
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Maybe the jury is actually giving a lot of weight to these things, but the way I see it, this probably falls within how you'd expect a witness to prepare for questioning. Now, when it comes to questions about the actual science and experiments, the biggest point the prosecution made was that the dummy arm that Wolf used was probably lighter than John's arm.
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Now, I say probably because the dummy arm was about nine and a half pounds, and Brennan claimed that John's arm was almost 12 pounds. But it later came out that no one has actually measured the weight of John's arm. This 12-pound figure is just an educated guess based on John's total body weight, so no one really knows.
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But regardless, Brennan pointed out that using a lighter test arm would show less damage to the taillight than if Dr. Wolfe had used a more accurately weighted arm. But Dr. Wolf argued that this 2.5 pound difference in the arm probably wouldn't matter compared to the 6,000 pound car.
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Then Wolf and Brennan went back and forth about this for a while, about different weights, different speeds, different scenarios. And Dr. Wolf eventually admitted that the weight of the arm could matter to some extent. Like, if the dummy arm was only 5 pounds, so half of its weight, he said that could make a difference.
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So it sounds like the weight of the arm does, or at least could matter in some scenarios. But honestly, if neither the prosecution experts nor the defense experts know the actual weight of John's arm, I don't really know what the jury is supposed to make of that.
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And finally, Wolf also admitted that in his test, the crushed dummy was harnessed in place, which can't fully replicate how a real unrestrained person would move after they'd been hit. And that wrapped up questioning for this week. But we can definitely expect to hear more from Dr. Wolf next week.
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So far though, I will say that when it comes to comparing Dr. Wolf's accident reconstruction to Dr. Welcher's, personally, I give my vote to Wolf. For one, I found him to be much more collected on the stand, less abrasive, easier to understand all of that. And outside of personality, I found Dr. Wolf's analysis to be a lot more scientific.
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It seemed like he made a much better effort to test out multiple scenarios and variables and replicate the alleged collision as closely as possible. And I also think it's important to add that Dr. Wolf and his colleague, yes, they're currently on the defense's payroll. I do get that.
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But remember, when they did these tests, came to their original conclusions, gave their original testimony, they were hired externally by federal investigators. They were basically third-party investigators, and they came to the conclusion that the damage to Karen's car isn't consistent with a collision. And I think that's huge. And that wraps up another crazy week.
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I've got to say, I think the defense is doing their job pretty well so far. They've only called eight witnesses, but so far they've been pretty impactful. We heard Matthew DeSogra say that John's phone was most likely used after Karen's car backed up. We saw those gross texts from Jonathan Diamantes that showed Proctor's bias.
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We had Officer Dever up there that showed how people can dramatically change their testimony after the state police get to them. Then we had Dr. Russell saying that John's injuries definitely did not come from a dog. We had Sergeant Barrows directly calling out the changes to the taillight. Of course, our lovable Lucky Loughran saying that there was no body on the lawn after Karen left.
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Karina saying that Karen and John were anything but fighting on the night in question. And now we have Dr. Wolf saying that the damage to Karen's car is definitely not consistent with hitting a pedestrian. So all in all, so far, I think the defense does stand a real shot of getting a not guilty verdict. The question is, how many more witnesses until they rest?
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I think we can expect them to wrap up early to mid next week, and then we'll move on to rebuttal witnesses and closing arguments. I can't wait to be back to break it all down with you guys. Thanks, Annie.
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Hey Annie, it's great to be back for week seven. We're well into the defense's case by now, and this week we've heard some of the most surprising testimony yet, so let's get right into it. Monday the 2nd was honestly maybe one of the wildest days we've had in court so far.
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First thing in the morning, we got to hear Judge Canone's ruling about those text messages between Proctor and his friends that we talked about last week. And in a rare win for the defense, Canone said that the defense will be allowed to introduce those texts without calling Proctor as a witness.
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She said, quote, I do find that they're properly authenticated, and I find that they come in as they go to the state of mind of Trooper Proctor. specifically as that goes to potentially reflecting any bias or omissions in the police investigation, end quote. But she did allow the prosecution to redact some specific portions of the messages.
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And it turns out we didn't have to wait that long to hear the texts, because the next witness was Jonathan Diamantes, who's Michael Proctor's longtime friend and someone who was in the group chat with those text messages. Now, interestingly, the defense introduced these into evidence, but they didn't actually have Jonathan read any of the texts, although the prosecution actually did.
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Now, from what I've researched, this could be a strategy from the defense to make the text seem even worse coming from the prosecution's own side, or it could be that the defense was, you know, saving the text for a bigger moment, but the prosecution happened to jump on them first to try to do some damage control.
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Now, as for the texts themselves, they show that even Proctor thought that the people at 34 Fairview could have been involved in John's death. His friend asked, quote, So the owner of the house was a cop that beat him up? Proctor said, quote, That's what I initially thought after talking to Canton paramedics.
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Then when talking about if the collision was intentional, Proctor said, quote, That's a whole nother animal we won't be able to prove. So even Proctor thinks that intentional homicide isn't provable. But still, he says, quote, zero chance she's skating. She's effed. Really professional conduct from a decorated state trooper, right? But just wait, it gets worse.
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One of his friends asked, quote, she hot at least? Proctor replied, quote, She's a whack job C-word. Yeah, she's a babe. Weird Riverfall accent, though. No ass. Then he also made derogatory comments, the specifics of which I really don't want to repeat, about Karen having colitis and colon cancer. Now, obviously, these are all horrendously inappropriate, unprofessional, all of that.
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But I actually think that this last one is the most damning in terms of showing Proctor's mindset in regards to the investigation. This is the one that shows that Proctor is not only a dirtbag, but a biased dirtbag. One front asked if the homeowner at 34 Fairview would, quote, receive some shit for having, you know, a dead body turn up on his lawn.
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Proctor's response, quote, nope, homeowner's a Boston cop too. He's not saying, nope, homeowner didn't have anything to do with it. Not, nope, it was definitely a car collision, nothing to do with the house. Those are not the reasons Proctor gives for why the Alberts won't be implicated. The reason he gives is much more telling. It's because he's a Boston cop too.
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Now, if that's not clear evidence of the Blue Wall of Silence, I don't know what is. And keep in mind, this is only 16 hours, less than a day into John's death. Well before a thorough investigation was done, but Proctor? His mind is already made up. Now, the defense's next witness was Boston Police Officer Kelly Dever, who was a patrol officer for Canton Police on the night of John's death.
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Dever is what's known as the hostile witness. That term doesn't actually have anything to do with the witness's attitude, although in this case, Dever certainly did have an abrasive attitude. But it actually means a witness who testifies against the party that called them. So in this case, she was called by the defense, but her stance lines up more with the prosecution's theory.
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To give another example, if the prosecution had called, say, Karen's father, who was, by the way, on their witness list, if they had called him, he would be considered a hostile witness for the prosecution because his stance and beliefs align more with the defense.
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So despite how much clearly she did not want to be on the stand, the defense still wanted to call her because she said something really interesting in an August 2023 interview with federal investigators. She told them that when she was observing video feed of the Canton PD garage on the day of John's death,
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She saw ATF agent Brian Higgins and former police chief Ken Berkowitz go into the garage together and alone with Karen's SUV for, quote, a wildly long time. Now, if that's true, that would be huge. That would be an eyewitness to two members of law enforcement, one of which is thought by many to be a suspect in John's murder.
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That would be an eyewitness to both of them in the garage with Karen's car for a suspiciously long amount of time. But Debra says it's not true. She says she was shown evidence that she actually left Canton PD well before Karen's car even came into the garage. So she retracted her first statement and called it, quote, a false memory. Now I totally get not being able to remember things.
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Forgetting where you put your phone, forgetting the name of your friend's husband, that kind of thing. And if she was saying she couldn't remember, like, exactly what day this happened or mixed up the details of something, something like that, I'd get it. But, like, completely making up a false memory with vivid details about who and where and how long?
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Is she saying she basically hallucinated all of that? That seems a lot less likely to me. Usually, we forget things, yes, but not falsely remember something that never even happened. Debra also added that the defense team threatened to charge her with perjury if she didn't stick to her original story.
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On a phone call with the defense, she said, quote, they became very aggressive, raised their voices. And the one word I can very definitely remember is that they said they would charge me with perjury. Now, on Redirect, Jackson pointed out that defense attorneys can't actually press charges against people. They're not members of law enforcement.
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But I actually don't doubt that the defense used the word perjury when talking to Dever. I can totally picture that going down. And is it a bad look for the defense to be aggressive with witnesses, to be potentially threatening them? Yeah, it is.
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Is it an even worse look for a police officer to give this really vivid interview to federal agents that implicates her colleagues in really serious misconduct and then suddenly retract that statement? I would say that's worse. And Karen seems to agree.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
Hey everybody, welcome back to an all new episode of Serialistly with me, Annie Elise. Today we are doing our Karen Reid trial week two recap. I always have a tough time saying that. It's like say it five times fast. Karen Reid retrial week two recap. No, we're giving you the recap today like we do every Friday and there is quite a bit that went down this week.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
Like last week, I'm going to have Elena, our correspondent who is there in Boston, boots on the ground, come in, join us, let us know firsthand what went down, what happened this week in the trial. And don't worry, for those of you who listened to the recap last week, we got Elena a better mic. We're working out some of the tech issues.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
That was her very first time ever being on camera, being on mic. So I appreciate all of the supportive comments. We love Elena, guys. She's the best. So thank you guys for being supportive as we work out any audio tweaks. But anyway, she's going to be joining us and letting us know what went on.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
But just to give you a little bit of like a taste for what we're going to be talking about, it was jam-packed this week. I mean, we had cell phone experts weigh in from Cellbrite where they had talked about
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
All right, guys, you just heard it all from Elena. And like I told you in the beginning of this episode, it was a big week. This trial is slated to go six and a half to eight weeks. Eight weeks was actually the original estimation. I don't know if that's still on target or if they think it's going to be shortened up at all.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
but we are just getting started we're literally going into week three now and we're not even at the halfway point yet so I think there is a lot to come I also will be it looks like confirmed in Boston in about a week and a half here no about two weeks here in May so I will be reporting live from Boston as well but we still have so much testimony to go over I mean we have
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
higgins and his messages with karen him at the sally port him leaving him moving the cars the butt dials of it all we have the michael proctor of it all not only his text messages and how he just like fumbled this case from the very get-go but also now new in this trial that wasn't there before is how he's been fired he's been disgraced he was fired for misconduct in this investigation so now the jury's going to hear all of that
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
So we are just getting started. It is going to be a wild one. So like I said, we're live streaming it every single day on YouTube. Otherwise, we will have these recaps prepped and ready for you every single Friday so you can keep up. And as we continue to work out the tech issues, we appreciate your patience, your feedback, and thank you for your support. All right, guys, have a great weekend.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
where the phone was traveling the movements that morning if John's phone could have been inside the house which of course a lot of that detail was not shared when it was direct examination he was saying that his phone went all the way to the flagpole that it never showed as going inside yet on cross when they brought up a diagram where it showed this like big white circle around the property and
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
I will be back with you first thing Monday. And until the next one, be nice. Don't kill people. Don't join any cults. Definitely don't drive drunk. And maybe just stay away from the Canton Police Department for a hot minute if you live in the area. All right. All right. Bye, guys.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
and they were challenged, and the defense team pushed back saying, well, couldn't it be true that his phone could have been anywhere in this white circle, even on the edge, which is near the house?
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
He says, of course, yes, and that he omitted that from his presentation that he gave the previous day because, again, he is only supposed to present his version of what fits with the state's point of view. So there's a lot of interesting things we need to talk about regarding all of the cell experts' testimony.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
Then Jen McCabe took the stand, the friend, the one who was there the morning they discovered John's body, the one who invited everybody back to Nicole and Brian Albert's house that evening. So she takes the stand and Feels very more like seems very more emotional than the first trial.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
In my opinion, a lot of people were suggesting that she was maybe coached, that she needed to look a little bit softer, that her appearance had even changed a bit. But she walks through the events leading up to the discovery of John's body.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
how Karen was acting something I did not like is that she kept calling Karen crazy over and over again it was she was acting batshit crazy she was a lunatic she was unhinged like all of these things I'm like okay it's not really freaking necessary like maybe it's authentic because she is trying to find her boyfriend who she loves and then she does discover his body like how is she how would you expect her to act right
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
So anyway, then on cross, it gets really interesting because the defense is going in hard. Alan Jackson is not holding back on this cross. And he basically, in my opinion, is trying to illustrate... that Jen's credibility is not really there, similar to what happened with Carrie Roberts last week.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
I think he was trying to catch her in a lie, and it got very heated, so much so that on Wednesday, Judge Bev kind of ended the cross a little bit abruptly. I mean, I know court was scheduled to end that day around that time anyway, but... It was just very interesting.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
And what has come out a lot this week, more so than last week, but definitely not new information, is a lot of the people out there who are watching this trial go down are commenting on Judge Beverly Canone and how it seems that she is siding with the state much more often than the defense, that she is saying things to almost put the defense like, not in timeout, but like shaming them for how they're approaching things, how they're asking questions, their behavior, etc.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
And I'm even seeing legal commentators out there who have not chosen any side in the Karen Reid case commenting on Judge Bev's behavior, saying how it's unprofessional, how at times it borders unethical. And that seems to be a theme that we saw a lot this week. So definitely no shortage of the theatrics this week. ARCA experts also have been now approved to be admitted.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
We'll get into more detail of that here shortly. But what I did think was interesting too, and I'm sure Elena may touch on it, is that when Judge Bev was talking with the defense, first of all, she said, make your argument quick, like trying to like hurry them up because it was the end of the day, even though she just gave the state like seven minutes to explain their point of view.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
So, but, and before she does that, She scolds them and she cites something that isn't even applicable in this scenario as to the signal chats and what was being held and what messages had been deleted. So then when the defense attorney is like kind of countering that, being like, well, actually that isn't applicable to what I'm talking about.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
It's almost, I don't know if she gets embarrassed or if she just like doesn't want to be called out that she knows she's wrong. But she kind of says, she's like, I know it doesn't. And don't worry, you don't need to argue this hard because I am going to approve it. Like you are going to win this motion.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
And it was just like, okay, then why did you have to give him this public scolding beforehand, right?
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
And it's my personal opinion that the only reason she allowed this in is because she knows if they did not allow the ARCA experts in, that there would be grounds for appeal, that there would be appeals coming in, that she would not be, that Karen Reid, her being she, that Karen Reid would not have gotten a fair trial. So as much as I think it pained her to do it, she knew she had to do it.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
And I think that's why she did this public scolding because she was like doing this like just gritting her teeth and not wanting to let the ARCA experts in but knew she had no other choice. That's just my opinion. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not an expert. I'm just a viewer and I'm here breaking it down for you and breaking down what I think.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
As a reminder, I know that these recaps are meant to catch you up on the full week of trial because a lot of us don't have seven hours to watch this trial every single day.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
But if you ever do find yourself wanting to watch live, if you're on your lunch break, if you have a free moment to yourself and you want to watch it live and watch it live with me on it, commentating, our live chat going, everybody commenting, you can do that over on my YouTube channel, 10 to Life, because we are live streaming it every single day. Just a little friendly reminder.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
Now, I'm going to stop talking. I'm going to let our amazing correspondent, Elena Johnson, come in. She is there in Massachusetts, breaking it all down for us, letting us know what's going on in court, out of court, what happened this week, the big takeaways. And we're going to start with just a very brief recap of what happened last Friday when the jury went out for jury view.
Serialously with Annie Elise
268: Karen Read Trial Recap Week 2: Jen McCabe Lied to FBI & Expert Admits John's Phone May Have Entered 34 Fairview
All right, Elena, thanks so much for joining us. Tell us what went down this week.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
And that's when I was just like, you know what? Fuck it. I have nothing to lose. I'm going to finally do what drives me. I'm going to finally take the steps. And I did it when it was just me and my daughter. So it was probably the most vulnerable time. But that's when, you know, it's just kind of you're looking at your life and you're like, I've got nothing to lose.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
If I'm going to invest, I'm going to invest in the only sure thing, which is myself, because that's the only thing I have control over. So I'm going to go for it.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
A hundred percent. And when you're building from the ground up, I actually think, you know, we're at such an advantage than those who, you know, got it from dad or from grandpa or from wherever. We actually get to build those systems and processes. So if we lose it all, we can rinse and repeat over somewhere else, the next niche, the next, you know, thing that pops up.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
And so I think that in its own is so valuable that we even have that opportunity to build that.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
That's what I was saying is, you know, when you're like, oh, my God, this company's failing. I'm closing the doors. I've just lost so much money. I've never lost a million, but I did lose $150,000 over the last summer. And in the moment, I was just like, oh, my God. But then I realized that me putting all my energy over here was taking away something that was a much bigger revenue driver.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
And when I put my energy back over here, it's just like...
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
yeah off it goes again right so everything happens exactly how it's meant to be and that's the mindset of you know it's not happening to me it's happening for me um and once you embrace that there's really not a lot of fear left yeah it's like that that mindset i would say is like a bulletproof vest for the entrepreneur yeah it's wicked it's pretty wicked good so last question on the legacy side just to wrap up today what does the legacy mean to you
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
A legacy for me is changing lives, you know, leaving behind lives that have been changed that have truly improved because of anything that an entrepreneur has done. And if you can take it a step further and you're changing those lives because you're filling a gap that wasn't even there to begin with, that's pretty special and standing the test of time.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
cosmopolitanacademy.com and tdsociety.com for the business side.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
Thank you very much for having me, Rudy.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
On the business side, so we were doing beauty courses, anything from lashes to permanent makeup. And we noticed that the vast majority of certification students who were going through these beauty courses, they were not doing anything with it. So we really saw that there was a major need to fill that gap. And so that's when we started the Diamond Society.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
So I actually took my success when I had started. I had a salon and I was doing the services myself. That's how I started. And so I reverse engineered the success of that. And that's now the infrastructure that we teach.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
Exactly what I did. When I was doing the actual services, I was going from house to house when I first started and doing services. And it was before it was even cool to get your lashes done. People were like, wait a second, what? You glue lashes to my own lashes? Why would I ever do that? That's how long ago I started. And then people started jumping on board. They're like, okay, this makes sense.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
I'm saving so much time and energy. I've got kids. You know, I rolled out of bed, but it doesn't look like I just rolled out of bed. And now I can get my kids to school on time. So this makes sense. But can you teach me how to do this? Because you're making a living off of it now. I want to, you know, and I was such an advocate because I literally get paid to make women feel phenomenal.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
I'm going to finally do what drives me. I'm going to finally take the steps. I've got nothing to lose. If I'm going to invest, I'm going to invest in the only sure thing, which is myself.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
Like it's a win-win. It doesn't ever feel like I'm working.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
It's 100% the same. And the industry has evolved just like everything else. So where we used to just do lashes and things like that, we're now doing paramedical tattooing. So we can do areola tattoos on a lady who's just had a mastectomy.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
Like, I mean, the amount of power that gives to that woman who's feeling so defeated at that time. We can change scars. We can take, you know, a C-section scar from such a beautiful process. And not that anybody has to cover that up. But I had a C-section scar and I didn't love it hanging out of my bathing suit.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
So to have that tattooed and covered up, I was so different at the beach and in different scenarios and to feel it myself and watch the transformation in my clients, there's nothing better than to feel that.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
So for myself, even when I first started, it was so much money in trial and error. That method, it sucks. You're spending, it takes you 10 years to get what should take you six months. So the moment that I got a mentor who has already done it, they've already succeeded. They've already been where I was. They could see my bottlenecks a lot quicker than I could. They could guide me.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
They were literally my business GPS to get to the next step. Um, and so to ride off of that and to gain that knowledge to me is a no brainer. So now we've incorporated that naturally into the diamond society as well. So those who want to, they're ready, they're ready to start hiring, you know, other employees and to scale and things like that.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
They have that option as well, because you know, who better to learn from than somebody who is legit already done it themselves.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
Mindset, it's not an option in business. It is prerequisite to succeed. Without proper positive mindset and that growth mindset, you're going to just kind of sit still in the water. There's not too much. So we absolutely touch on that as well. And I live by that as well. I think that there's no such thing as a successful person who's got a really shitty mind.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
100%. And, you know, to touch on even being in the lifestyle growing up of such fitness, it's like marathon runners. Like they all show up to do the same thing, but very, very few of them actually show up to win the race. Most of them show up to say, hey, I was here, I ran. And that's the difference between, you know, going the extra mile, even in business, those people have that winning mindset.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
And there's very few who actually embrace it and show up to do that.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
Where do I even start? I think one of the biggest things would be that, so I was raised in poverty. And so I learned very early on how to be incredibly hyper independent and depend on myself and things like that. And when I first started doing business, I tried to wear all the hats. I was trying to do it all. And it was just a recipe for burnout.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
So we also, we want to teach that you don't have to burn yourself out. You don't actually have to wear all the hats. There is something called delegation. There is something called growth and you know, scaling, which includes bringing in a team, build your community, you know, as you're building your business.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
What are you saying? Where do I even start?
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
And I would say the biggest thing is that I had to overcome mentally from my childhood would have been, you know, I don't have to be doing it alone. I can depend on other people and I can utilize other people's strengths, my weaknesses, things like that to kind of fill those voids. So to take the one thing would be To overcome, you know, the mindset of having to do it all.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
100%. It's not scalable. It's not a scalable model, which means you're going to plateau. And you're going to hit that ceiling very early on if you're good.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
We want to change lives. You do it on such a minimal scale when you've got it alone.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
Biggest failure. There's been a lot. There's been a ton. And I think that's all part of the mindset is, you know, understanding that failure is part of the process. You're not going to avoid it. So at first, when I first started, I was fearing that. I started so many businesses that just went nowhere.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
Like you're I think as entrepreneurs, we want to build. Right.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
So I don't know if I can put my finger on one single failure. I've had many, but they've all catapulted me into a new direction and into what I have learned from the failures has taken what I'm already doing and projected it forward in an even quicker manner.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
Yeah, you just have to bounce right back.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
Take what you can from it and go.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
So we're going to jump into mindset for sure. And then from there, we're going to go into some action rules that people can take home with them and start right away. So $0 lead magnet. So for people who started the way I started, no marketing budget, not a lot to depend on. How can we bring in clients without spending a ton of the ads?
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
So we're going to get into that a lot more for those who are just starting out and don't have the same budget as everybody else.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
Yeah, so I was born and raised in Ontario, Canada. And my mom, she was a single mom growing up. So it was not lavish, to say the least. She's absolutely wicked. I shouldn't say she was wicked. She's absolutely wicked. This girl is, she's a phoenix. She just takes these situations and turns them into something that...
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
My brother and I didn't even know that we were poor until we were old enough to understand that we were poor. Yeah, we would literally roll coins at the table, but she would make it a game. So we didn't think that it was like embarrassing to take these rolled coins to get our groceries. And we had... And we actually grew up the first house when she left my dad, who was very abusive.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
So that in its own was such a triumph for her. But she got this little one bedroom apartment. And I remember my brother used to put duct tape down the middle of the bedroom. And he's like, Alana, that's your side of the room. Don't put your toys on my side. Don't come on my side. I mean, this room was smaller. It was a closet. Right. Okay. And my poor mom had to sleep on the couch.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
That's how I grew up. So to go from that to, to where I am now, you know, making the seven figures, it's, it's been a journey and it's, it's been very exciting.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
You have to almost overcome that. It's the abundance mindset, right? If we start telling us that we have to turn it off, that we can't afford to keep it on. And it's funny how we evolve like that. Cause I do remember when I first got my first apartment, same thing.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
I turn out all the lights, constantly turn out the lights and making sure that, you know, I would wear an extra sweater instead of, and now my house stays so hot. Everybody comes over. They're like, Alana, can we open a window? Like saying, I'm like, it's so nice in here. It's like Miami, but we're not in Miami. We're in the freezing cold in Ontario.
The Living Your Legacy Podcast
Alana Bemmann on Building Beauty Empires & Empowering Through Education
It's still a new lifestyle for myself. Even I went through, so I actually became a statistic just like my mom. Um, so coming from, you know, a single mom being, you know, growing up in poverty and, you know, watching the abuse as a child, I ended up leaving a marriage at the age of 28. So I was so young, I was already a divorcee. I left an abusive relationship myself.
The MeidasTouch Podcast
Terrified Trump Folds in Panic Amid Economic Collapse
Elena. The Press Hi, Karen. It's clear the President has gotten the world's attention with these tariffs. Is there – is he considering at all potentially holding off on imposing some of them before the deadline or maybe later, you know, reversing them because he's having these negotiations and having these good talks with other leaders?
The Ramsey Show
You Can’t Outearn Bad Spending Habits Forever
Yeah, so I think it's just the field. This is actually... a Christian-based company, which is super awesome. So I think it's just a field. I'm not happy here. It's just not fulfilling. I do love kids, so I've always wanted to pursue NICU nursing. But I graduated in Hawaii, and the diploma I got from there is not recognized. So I would have to go back to school for a GED and then go to college.
The Ramsey Show
You Can’t Outearn Bad Spending Habits Forever
But with all the debt and the mess that I have, it's just kind of overwhelming, and I really don't know kind of where to go.
The Ramsey Show
You Can’t Outearn Bad Spending Habits Forever
Yeah, so I graduated from a competency adult community school, and apparently that is not recognized nationally, and I have to go back for a GED, which is crazy because I've been using that pretty much my whole life. Okay.
The Ramsey Show
You Can’t Outearn Bad Spending Habits Forever
And again, this isn't about... I do have a... Go ahead.
The Ramsey Show
You Can’t Outearn Bad Spending Habits Forever
I was going to say something really important, too, because I am a believer and a follower of Christ, but I did do something really stupid. And when my sister passed away early this year, I would say I was super vulnerable and dealing with grief, not knowing how to deal with grief for the first time.
The Ramsey Show
You Can’t Outearn Bad Spending Habits Forever
And I ended up moving, of course, from my first job early this year, paying about $70,000 to live with my boyfriend. And now we're living in this house unmarried. We're not seeing eye to eye in terms of finances. That's easy to undo, isn't it?
The Ramsey Show
You Can’t Outearn Bad Spending Habits Forever
yeah yeah move out my dad always said my dad always said why pay for the the cow um when you can get the milk for free right so i'm kind of struggling dad's a wise man and um so yeah but you can fix that you can just move out where where were you living when you were making 70 In Arlington, Virginia.
The Ramsey Show
You Can’t Outearn Bad Spending Habits Forever
So I've been watching you for a long time, for years now, and I have just saved my $1,000. Good. And I am also drowning in student debt, credit card, and my car loan. I do have a job. I make about $50,000. My debt is a little bit more, around $65,000. I hate my job, and I want to go to school, but I don't know if that's a good idea because of the amount of debt that I have.
The Ramsey Show
You Can’t Outearn Bad Spending Habits Forever
I'm trying to figure out what the best way is to get out of this mess, basically.