PJ Vogt
Appearances
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Surge Engine is brought to you by Polestar. Polestar's new electric SUV, the Polestar 3, genuinely drives like a sports car, going from zero to 60 in as little as 4.8 seconds and an EPA-estimated range of up to 315 miles. Did we mention it's 100% electric?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
It's 3 p.m. now, and Shruti and I are walking with Gazina Kyuna. Gazina is a person we've been told to meet because she seems like a perfect guide. A club kid, but also a radio reporter who's covered the scene here for years. And a DJ. I'd been picturing my stereotype of an intimidating Berghain scene star, clad in four shades of black with an asymmetrical haircut.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Gazina instead is all smiles, wearing a lavender sweatsuit and these big glasses. She has the energy of an enthusiastic substitute techno teacher, not yet burned out by the job.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Oh, so it's just, it's two neighborhoods portmanteau smashed up together.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Gazina tells me Berghain is actually closed on Wednesday, so all we can do this afternoon is study the club's perimeter. I still have a few days to do all my research before Klubnacht begins on Saturday. Berghain sits near a cluster of clubs, small, big, discreet, not, tucked along the banks of the river Spree.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Gesine has lived in Berlin most of her life. She was born just outside the city in East Germany while the wall was still up.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Todesstreifen. Almost. Todesstreifen.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
It was all part of this crazy plan that a man named Lutz had described to me, and which I could not resist trying. Lutz had said that the real way into the most exclusive nightclub in the world, Berghain, famous for its four hour plus line, was to not wait in that line at all.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Let's just say the death strip. During the Cold War, East Germany built what we call the Berlin Wall, which was actually two parallel walls with a big negative space between them. That negative space is the Death Strip, patrolled by guards with guns, dogs, surrounded by barbed wire. It was called the Death Strip because over 100 people were killed trying to pass.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
The Death Strip is Berlin's defining scar, but it's also crucial to our story today, weirdly because it's the cradle that will eventually birth the city's techno scene. But for Gesina, as a kid, before there's the music, there's just the wall. Her family lived in the Soviet-controlled East, the GDR.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Gesina's father ended up on the wrong side of the secret police there, the Stasi, for what sounded to me like the dumbest possible reason.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
This stray complaint about lemonade, one time, it meant Gesine's family would always be surveilled, targeted. Reading about life under the Stasi gives me a deep chill. The Stasi tortured, they poisoned, but what they're most famous for today is the way they surveilled and smeared German citizens.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Germany's commitment to privacy, its suspicion of internet companies and camera phones, I can't help but wonder if some of that traces back to this moment. The Stasi and their vast network of collaborators spied on everyone. They used secrets and rumors to destroy anyone in their way. Gossip wielded by idiots, a weapon of mass destruction.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Today, Germans talk about privacy the way we talk about free speech. But Gazina's family, they actually found an escape from the East. In 1984, this door opened for them. Some East Germans were being allowed to go West, the West essentially paying the East for workers it needed. One day, Gazina's family found out they'd been selected.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
But the opportunity had come out of nowhere, and her mother wasn't ready. She needed time to prepare. So they came up with a story. Her parents told Gazina, six years old at the time, to pretend to be sick, to buy the family a little more time while the Stasi monitored them.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
It was instead to meet people in the Berlin techno crowd, gain a deep understanding of what the music meant to them, and in doing so, somehow melt into the scene. I am not socially adept. I don't speak German. I'm very new even to just dancing. Assuming this plan could work for someone, I'm pretty skeptical it can work for me. But I felt like I wanted to try.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Gazina's family moved to the part of West Berlin that was specifically for people coming in from the East, as she describes it, a quasi-refugee camp. Life there would end up being challenging. Her brother was badly bullied in school and turned around and bullied her. Her parents, who had been much more present in the East, now disappeared into work.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
leaving her and her brother home alone with the television. For her parents, life in the East was the bad memory. For Gesina, who left all that so young, it's the West, this strange new country that changed her family, that left a bruise that stuck around.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
We're standing with our backs to what's left of the east side of the Berlin Wall. It's covered in street art and graffiti now. Nearby, there's a field of grass and dirt, and then the river. Honestly, as far as monuments go, it's not much. The wall fell on November 89, and the two cities that had been kept apart rushed to join each other.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
It's strange to think that this place where we're talking, anyone standing here would have been shot. It's just a field.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Gazina starts pointing downriver to this spot. A decommissioned soap factory turned into a club, which closed and turned into another club. I know exactly the feeling she's having. Like anybody who's lived somewhere long enough, she's looking at the city, but she's seeing all the cities that used to be here underneath it.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Berlin in the 1990s, a decade, really, of parties, many of them technically illegal, occupying spaces for a few years, maybe longer, before disappearing. A good party is typically about celebrating something, a birthday, a promotion. But the truly great ones, they're almost always about release. the Germans grabbed ahold of Techno, the height of the fire of the scene they built here.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
This was a country with decades of awful, unspeakable history, trying now to find a way to move forward. I'm gonna tell you the story of the one party that towered over all the others, a party that somehow tied all these strange threads of time and history together. After the break, I'm gonna tell you the story of Tresor. Search Engine is brought to you by Fresh Direct. I really like Fresh Direct.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
As someone who has known the joys of belonging and the pain of not, I've always been very curious about where I can make myself fit in and which places are a bridge too far. Could a poorly dressed American with a weird laugh find even a temporary home in a severe German techno dungeon? I had less than a week to get an answer, but for once in my life, at least I knew it would be a definitive one.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
When I go to the grocery store, for some reason, my brain goes into, like, screensaver mode, and it takes me forever, and I get lost, and I come back with half of the things I actually need. So I end up saving hours a week just using Fresh Direct. Fresh Direct is farm-to-kitchen, food sourced directly from farmers, fishermen, and ranchers, and delivered straight to your door.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Because of this, I'm paying for the quality of food, rather than just paying someone to go to a store for me. FreshDirect says they are seven days fresher than the grocery store. And honestly, you can tell the difference. The convenience is unbeatable. You can grocery shop from your office or your couch whenever you want. The most recent thing I ordered from FreshDirect was a fennel bulb.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
I mean, I had other stuff too, but the fennel was really good. For over 20 years, Fresh Direct has been delivering the freshest fruits, vegetables, and meats to the tri-state area. Don't take my word for it. Try to believe it with $50 off your first order. Go to freshdirect.com and use code SEARCHENGINE. That's freshdirect.com, code SEARCHENGINE, for new customers to save $50 on their first order.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Terms and restrictions apply. See site for details. Search Engine is brought to you by Rosetta Stone. There's a lot of reasons to learn a new language. One of my favorites, cognitive benefits, improved brain function. My brain has not been very good. Studies have shown that learning a new language can improve memory, problem solving skills, and even delay the onset of dementia.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
It might be too late for me, but it's not too late for you. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program, available on desktop or as an app. It truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. Rosetta Stone has been a trusted expert for 30 years, with millions of users and 25 languages offered.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Lifetime membership has all 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. Search Engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine. That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. Act Three, The Vault. In the 1910s, before the Nazis took over, the biggest department store in Europe was a store called Wertheim. Founded by George Wertheim, a Jewish man, his chain's flagship store was the one in Berlin. There's photos of it from before the destruction. It's worth looking them up.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Honestly, Storr doesn't really describe it. Really, it's a cathedral, featuring an enormous light-filled atrium, beautiful frescoes, 83 elevators somehow. In 1933, the Nazis start picketing the store. There's a photo of them standing outside holding their signs, don't buy from Jews. Wertheim is forced to hand his store over to non-Jewish Germans. He dies of pneumonia in 1939.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
The store itself is destroyed a few years later by Allied bombs. What's left is razed to make more room for the wall. The former Wertheim location, unfortunately, falls in the death strip. In the end, all that's left, some rubble and the old vault that was beneath the store. It's like every horrible decision Germany made for 50 years, they also made on this one building, Wertheim.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
And then the wall falls. Sven von Thulen, the DJ techno historian, picks up the story of Wertheim here.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
So on March 13th, I get off the plane, blink in the bright, cold sunlight, and start practicing some rudimentary German.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Polestar 3 operates on a custom-developed Android automotive OS, which takes your infotainment center a step further, holistically connecting to the car. It also has seamless voice commands and active road noise canceling. Book your test drive today at Polestar.com. My body thinks that it's 2.30 in the morning, but I'm on a plane landing in Berlin where it's 7.30 in the morning.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
This place would become the site of a club called Tresor, German for vaults, the jewel of the city's new techno scene, years before that title was seized by Berghain. Tresor, a nightclub, but also a portal between Berlin and Detroit.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
One of the men in the car that day, Dimitri Hageman, had already been flying to America, even signing some Detroit DJs to his label, getting their music into his West Berlin club before the wall fell.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
But now, Tresor would be where Detroiters like Derek May, Jeff Mills, Juan Atkins could now fly out and spin techno records for ecstatic Germans, sometimes quite literally ecstatic, MDMA a large part of the scene at the time. These American DJs were finding that the techno they made at home meant something else here in Germany.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
This place that had been so stuck in its own history loved this music, whose power lay in how it looped. It looped in a way that sounded to some people meaningless, but to others, deeply meaningful. The music looped. Sometimes the stories about it did too. One of the Germans converted to techno in the sweaty dungeon of Tresor, Gesine Kühne,
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Although before Gazina loved electronic music, she actually hated it. Her association with dance music was this cloying, repetitive, syrupy stuff that was sledging out of Europe in the 1990s. But then a friend of hers told her that there were these strange new underground clubs populating the empty parts of the city. And he invited her to come explore them.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
I'm there with my editor, Shruti, who, by some miracle, speaks the language. But other than that, I could not have been a more outside outsider to the city.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Trezor was a turning point for Sven von Thulen too, the site of his conversion. Do you remember just the first time you went to Trezor?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
It's our first day, and so we head to the neighborhood everyone had told me to start with, Friedrichshain. Friedrichshain is the neighborhood that contains Berghain. Walking the streets, I feel this feeling of déjà street view. I've clicked through the same blocks on Google Maps for my apartment at home. I can see the big sports arena that replaced Ostgut, Berghain's previous incarnation.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
I had not spent that much time really thinking about the emotional reality of it and the strangeness of its existence and the strangeness of its end. The way you talk about that,
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
it's a combination of like it's so beautiful like as an expression of like human freedom and joy and so strange like it's so strange to me that that there would be a city divided where two different economic models were in competition with each other where people had to live these like very constrained lives and that when you set those people free it turns out the thing that they're gonna do is have computers make music for them and shake their asses in like
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
this dungeon-y, like, bombed-out buildings. It's so strange.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
For Sven, Trezor is where the new city began, where he learned to love techno music, where he found a path for his life in a former vault where sweat and chunks of plaster routinely dripped from the ceiling into people's drinks.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
And this was the scene that would, over the years, draw an international crowd, people from all over the world who had no real feelings about a unified Germany or the scars of the Cold War, but who could recognize a good party and who wanted to join one. Trezor would lose its original location. A lot of those early clubs would disappear.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
I can see the river Spree, which winds along the city streets. I have the sensation that I get sometimes when I'm in a restaurant where a celebrity has appeared. A little giddy, a little on edge. Act one, The Portal. Late in the morning, I find myself en route to see a man named Sven von Thulen. Not the Berghain bouncer Sven, there are many Svens in Germany. This Sven, a DJ and a writer.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
At some point, the egalitarian, anyone-can-join-the-party vibe would fade, replaced with something more exclusive. A new, intimidating club, which drew foreigners, even ones who didn't know very much about techno, but who just heard there was a room that was very hard to enter, a room they now wanted to try to get into. Berghain. It's still Wednesday afternoon.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Our stroll with Gazina, the DJ and radio reporter, continues. She's about to show us Berghain's outside, the castle's exterior. We leave the park and its remnants of the old Berlin Wall, and we walk towards our destination, just a few minutes away.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Berghain takes me by surprise somehow. We're walking down a side street when suddenly the top of this massive building appears in the distance. It doesn't look like a power plant. It's palatial, with double-height, skinny rectangular windows. Honestly, to my eye, it looks like an industrial version of Buckingham Palace, maybe one occupied by squatters.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
For Gesina, if Trezor was the site of her techno conversion, Berghain is the church she now visits most regularly. Can you tell me the first time you went to Berghain?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Which is the predecessor to Berghain.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Gesina said she went there to see one of her friends DJ. The line was short back then, but Sven Markart was already manning the door. Two decades younger, his reputation already firmly established. When Ostgut morphed into Berghain, it kept the same values, secrecy and privacy for its guests.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Walking toward the club, Gesine explains that even today, when you enter, your phone is taken so its camera lens can be covered.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Oh, what's that? There's a little green sticker on the ground. Yeah, well, this is... Is that a Berghain sticker? This is this.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
There's Berghain shrapnel just a couple blocks away.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
We pass through a small park, a former train lot, concrete and graffiti-covered benches. We pop around a corner, and now Shruti, Gazina, and I are standing by what seems to be the side of Berghain. I notice this unassuming metal door that looks like a service entrance, maybe.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
This is the main door of Berghain. We're here already. 4.30 p.m. on a Wednesday. The club is closed. No one's outside. A gray door, sealed tight and graffitied. This will be where the line ends on Klubnacht. In front of the door, a series of waist-high metal gates to corral that line. And overlooking it all, I noticed two prominent white security cameras.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
The scene does not feel like what you'd see outside of a nightclub. It feels like what you'd see in front of a tiny patch of the Berlin Wall. high security.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Gazina says, highly unlikely, just given how tight the security is here, the sheer number of people who work the door. But she also uses the opportunity to point out, people sort of misunderstand these bouncers, these doormen, these gatekeepers, everyone obsesses over and sometimes reviles.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
The music studio where he asks to meet, a walk-up. I walk up with a lot of stairs. I trail behind Shruti.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not the place that we're standing 10 feet away from.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Gazina walks us away from the door, away from Berghain. We're now walking down a concrete path. We pass by a closed Imbiss, a German snack shop, whose entire business seems to be selling food to Berghain's line supplicants. We walk, and we walk, this currently empty path that in a few nights will be filled with pilgrims.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
We walk to the end of the road, and then we turn around and behold the grandest view of Castle Berghain. I imagine for a moment the ghosts of Chris and Dan, making minor dance movements here, wondering if the club can perceive them, and if so, what it's thinking. So if you were here, how many, would it be like a couple of hours?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
And so they waited seven hours in line, half of their party was rejected, and he was like, I'm so sorry, I'll see you tomorrow?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Middle-aged, fashionable, a short red-brown widow's peak and a white T-shirt. Sven dresses to my eyes more like a rock guitarist than a techno DJ, but how does a techno guy dress anyway?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Gazina talking about waltzing into Berghain without waiting in line, without even being on a list, is a little funny to me. Elon Musk reportedly was not only rejected by a doorman here, but rejected despite being on a guest list.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
But Gesina, who is just a very normal adult Berliner, a person who owns zero electric car companies, actually stitches together a lot of jobs to make ends meet, for her, Berghain is just the place she belongs. It reminds me of that conversation with Lutz from the last episode, where he explained how a nightclub is in fact a club that, here at least, you can't buy your way in.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
At this point, I make a confession to Gesina. I'm thinking myself about trying the door on Sunday. She looks at me and Shruti appraisingly.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
And Americans are not, like, adored at Berghain.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
For the record, I want to say I am dressed badly, as is my custom. I've never really figured out pants. So it's not that I'm dressed frumpily, it's that I'm dressed Americanly?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
That's a tough one. Okay, but here's what's hard. So you say that. I totally agree.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
And I'm like, but like, if the club is supposed to... It's early evening when we say goodbye to Gazina and leave Friedrichshain. I'm still jet-lagged and a little confused. I eat a donor kebab at dinner with some American friends. They want to hit the bars. I try, but I find myself falling asleep into a gin and tonic. I tell myself, it's the first night, there'll be others.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
I say goodbye, and my friends forge on in search of an adventure. Which, for them, does not quite work out. What happens is they go from bar to bar, but then somewhat randomly end up outside the Kit Kat club, a very famous fetish club where the dress code runs towards leather gear or else basically nothing. My friends show up at the door dressed in comfortable American tech worker fleeces.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
The bouncer is horrified. He looks at them and says, no, no, this is impossible. We are a fetish club. Please go home. Read our website. The Americans seem to find this experience completely entertaining, a good story to take home. Through all of this, I am asleep. Despite visions of Berghain doorman Sven Marquardt, I have no nightmares. Search Engine is brought to you by Betterment.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
We sit down and I tell Sven what I want him to help me try to understand today. I'm trying to understand a genre of music, techno, which for some reason Germans love and Americans mostly view as vapid. Why would the same sounds be heard so differently in two different countries? In America, it's like the two types of music you're allowed to say you hate are
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Do you want your money to be motivated? Do you want your money to rise and grind? Do you think your money should get up and work? Don't worry, Betterment is here to help. Betterment is the automated investing and savings app that makes your money hustle.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Their automated technology is built to help maximize returns, meaning when you invest with Betterment, your money can auto-adjust as you get closer to your goal, rebalance if your portfolio gets too far out of line, and your dividends are automatically reinvested. That can increase the potential for compound returns.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
In other words, your money is working like a dog while you can be sleeping like one and snoring like one too. You'll never picture your money the same way again. Betterment, the automated investing and savings app that makes your money hustle. Visit betterment.com to get started. Investing involves risk. Performance is not guaranteed. Search Engine is brought to you by Spotpet.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Searching listeners know that I love my dog more than anything else in this world. I want to be buried in a pyramid with him when he dies or when I die. Whoever goes first, we're going together. I want to share a message from our trusted companion in helping you be ready for any unexpected vet visits. Spot Pet Insurance. Spot Pet Insurance is your virtual ally against the unexpected.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
With Spot Plans, you can receive up to 90% cash back on eligible vet bills, helping to transform unforeseen expenses into manageable moments of care for your cherished pets. Spot Pet Insurance plans go beyond just offering coverage for accidents and illnesses. Access to a 24-7 vet telehealth hotline is included with every policy, so you can ask an expert all your questions.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
You can also enhance your plan with their preventative care benefit, helping ensure routine wellness, vaccines, and more can be covered too. Head over to spotpet.com for an instant quote today. I think I'm supposed to read this part super fast, so I'm going to read this part super fast. Ready? Disclaimer, pay to add from Spot Pet Insurance.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Waiting periods, annual deductibles, co-insurance, benefit limits, and exclusions may apply. For all terms, visit spotpetins.com slash sample policy. Insurance plans are underwritten by either Independent American Insurance Company or United States Fire Insurance Company and produced by Spot Pet Insurance Services LLC. Search Engine is brought to you by Discover Doublenomics.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
We discuss all things finance and economics here, but have you heard about Doublenomics? It's okay if you haven't because we like to keep you in the know and it's extremely niche. Here's an example of Doublenomics. Discover automatically doubles the cash back earned on your credit card at the end of your first year with cash back match.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
That means with Discover, you could turn $150 cash back to 300. It pays to Discover. See terms at discover.com slash credit card. Act five, intoxication. Thursday morning, I wake up still pretty jet-lagged. I go to get a table at a coffee shop in Friedrichshain, and standing, waiting, I behold a sight I'm pretty sure is a hallucination.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
I snap a photo just to be sure, and then go find Shruti to learn if I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Sven. Sven Markart, Haunter of My Dreams. Not at all. It's a high-risk maneuver.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
The recording stops here because I realize I'm about to debase myself and don't want to record it. I will just say, we have an argument, which I win, and the end result is Shruthi has to go say hello. She compliments Sven on his photographs, which, if you haven't seen them, honestly are quite beautiful.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Sven is gracious, no one spontaneously combusts, but he also does not hand Shruti two secret golden tickets into Berghain. My efforts to melt into this scene will have to proceed differently. I delete the photo from my phone, we leave the coffee shop, and we head to a very different part of the city to meet somebody connected to the techno scene.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Yes. Sven tells me he gets it. A lot of people's first exposure to electronic music is the worst of the genre. And he relates to that because when he first heard techno, he also hated it. His association with dance music was this cloying, repetitive, syrupy stuff that was sledging out of Europe in the 1990s. I was like a punk kid.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
We settle into a meeting room. It's a nice one. Wayne's scouting for days.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
In a normal city, talking to a lawyer would not be a good way to break into or understand the techno scene. But we're in Berlin, where a lot of the grownups are former or not so former club kids. Philip says he grew up haunting West Germany's club scene, even through parties of his own. But that was then. He's been a lawyer for 15 or so years now.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Philip, a handsome man, 45, but looks about a decade younger, apparently dancing is good for you, He told me about the kind of work that a grown-up club lawyer finds himself engaged in.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
I'm not gonna play all the times this moment happens in a recorded conversation this week, we're both better than that, but it's a lot. Over and over again, someone will ask me, have I heard about the UNESCO news? And it's true. March 13th, the day we arrive in Berlin, Berlin Techno is declared a UNESCO cultural heritage site.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
UNESCO world heritage sites include the Great Wall of China and the Acropolis. Berlin Techno is technically considered an intangible cultural heritage site. But still, Philip says, as a lawyer, this UNESCO designation will be useful ammunition in his ongoing battles.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
And it's a way of saying, basically all of these things amount to the same thing, which is the city is constantly having to make choices about whether to favor the needs of a resident or a business. And what something like this does is it lets culture make its argument as well.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
To say, this might inconvenience a neighbor in this way, or this might prevent this other business from opening here, but we are deciding to preserve our culture.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
The UNESCO designation may be a sign that Berlin's nightlife has won its multi-decade war for legitimacy, a war which Philip played a role in. Philip had been there in the 2000s, when this new generation of Berlin clubs had to fight against being wiped out by a proposed new tax designation.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
This was the story I'd heard in broad strokes before from Lutz Leixenring in the last episode, but I wanted to hear it from Philip, who'd actually helped put the club's legal argument together. A refresher, just in case you need it, in the early 2000s, underground techno clubs in Berlin had been taxed mostly as concert venues, which paid pretty low taxes to the city.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
The tax authorities wanted to start charging the clubs at entertainment rates to treat them all like garden-variety discotheques, which would mean almost 20% of all the clubs' earnings went to the city. And Berghain and other clubs like it wouldn't just owe 20% going forward. They'd have to pay those taxes retroactively as well. And for the club owners, was it existential?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Were there clubs that were worried that they would go out of business if they had to pay this bill? Absolutely.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
So in 2011, Philip's law firm starts meeting with the club commission and certain club owners, he can't say which ones, but let's say some key players. They meet with the tax authorities to make their case. Bureaucrats and club owners in a room together, hashing it out.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
These club kids in suits had to defend the thing they did at night as meaningful. Discussion ensued.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
So that's the first point of contention. Is a DJ an artist? The second point was, even if they are, is a DJ set really like a concert? One way you could define a concert would be fans pay for tickets and the price of the ticket is based on how famous the artist is and how close to the artist the fan gets to sit. The fiscal authorities, looking at a techno club, did not see that happening.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
To give you a sense of what angry young Sven was into, this is his old hardcore punk band, Abyss. Sven had no use for uns uns. And he didn't just hate techno. He hated the kinds of places that played it, at least in the town where he was from.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Slow down for a second. These tax authorities who you're having these conversations with, are they people who are more used to rock shows? Yes. Because if you just think about it, like, is there any reason why when a rock band plays, we all stand and watch them strum a guitar? We could celebrate it by standing away from the band and dancing.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Like, it makes you think about the arbitrariness of how we celebrate music together in modern life. It's very strange.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
The club that would fight the fiscal authorities in court was, of course, Berghain. Or, as the Germans call it, the Berghain.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Similar arguments will be made in open court to the ones Philip and his team had made behind closed doors. But here, those arguments seem to fall on more sympathetic ears. The court agrees. DJs don't just press play on CDs. They have synths and mixers and faders. They change the pitch and the frequency of their tracks.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
But then the tax officials argue, don't people just go to Berghain and places like it to get intoxicated? And here, the club lawyer concedes the point. Yes, they do. But he had a question. Wasn't intoxication so often the point of listening to music? The lawyer's example. What was the feeling you were meant to have when listening to a piece by Gustav Mahler, if not intoxication?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Did people celebrate? Did people go out?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Does that mean there's a pressure on these clubs in the wake of these rulings to behave artistically, whatever that would mean, or behave culturally, whatever that would mean? Does it push people... towards a kind of conventions or rules with an eye towards the tax authority?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
This was a story that I heard all the way in New York, that if you go to the door at a place like Berghain you may be asked who the DJ is. And then later I'd heard rumors that this was partly as a result of German tax law. I love a good story. That seems crazy. Is that, because I feel like, is that true? That like you can draw a line from that tax decision to that question?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
ACT VI Techno loops. The story's about a doo-doo sometimes. When I'd first heard this story from Lutz, I liked it. I thought it was funny. And I guess I understood it as a tale of the club kids being clever, outmaneuvering the tax people a bit. Here in Berlin, it settled on me differently. The conversation with Philip happened late in the afternoon.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
That night, I had really my first sublime Berlin dance floor experience. This tiny spot, no bouncer, it's called Sussfahrgestern, suite was yesterday. I don't record here. I don't record in any club. I'm trying to follow the rules of this place that's so dead set against the casual surveillance we're all used to at home. But it's dingy and beautiful here.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
The dance floor, like a living room from Alice in Wonderland, maybe? Someone stapled a Persian rug to the ceiling. The floor is crowded. People really of all ages. For some reason, the room has an absurd amount of couches, but the dancers just clear all the furniture. I'm told that's how it happens every week.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
But then, in the mid-'90s, Sven moved to Berlin. And there, he found himself listening to techno in a different context, in different spaces.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
As I watch the DJ and the people around the DJ, I find myself thinking about Philip and the court case and about what's happening in this room. I think about Sven von Thulen, that hardcore kid turned techno DJ. Sven had told me at one point part of why he loved techno was the same reason he loved punk, that it was a genre that just did not care for rock stars.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
In the early days, in particular, he said the people dancing at the party were the main attraction. The DJ conducted them, but the DJ also kind of disappeared. It wasn't like a concert where hundreds or thousands of people stare at one person in a kind of secular worship. This was something older, weirder, people losing themselves, becoming a mass. It's happening in this room tonight.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
And I think maybe this is what the club kids were trying to say to those tax authorities, that this was worth defending, valuable, or at least cultural. Saturday night comes, the beginning of Klubnacht at Berghain. Instead of going there and braving the bouncers, staring down Sven, I go with my friends to a different Berlin club, this one sitting on the banks of the river Spree.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
The bouncer there, a stylish woman, asks our group if we speak German. The German speakers in our party try to cover, saying we all do. Her eyes fix directly on my cow-like, uncomprehending American gaze, and she asks in English, do you speak German? No, I confess. She starts laughing. Why would you lie to me? She lets us all in. Sunday morning, one final dance party.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
We show up at an old public German swimming area, this small lake outside of the city. In a shack on the water, all the windows have been covered in colored gels, so when the morning light comes in, it feels like you're inside a cathedral instead of a lean-to. It's so crushingly beautiful, so criminally Instagrammable, one of my American friends can't resist. He takes out his phone.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Immediately, a German partygoer is on top of him, reacting the way someone would react if he took out an actual weapon in an American nightclub. Stay in the moment, she yells, or something to that effect. It's a little aggressive, but the phone is ultimately holstered. Sunday afternoon, a few hours later, a text arrives. Do I want to see Berghain? A person I'd met this week.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Their friend is DJing today, so they're going to support them. They can take me along, if my clothes aren't too bad. I'll still have to pass a bouncer, but I'll have a real Berliner offering me a halo. 3 p.m., the sun is shining at morning church-level strength. The line of petitioners outside Berghain is as long as ever.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
The line where Chris and Dan had found themselves, snakes from the entrance of the club, maybe 100 yards back. At the front, an open door guarded by two men. Inside, through the black rectangle of the door, Sven, watching a series of security camera monitors, presumably directing decisions from inside. I meet my Berliner friend, and we stand near the famous line.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
For a very, very long time, we just watched the line. It feels tense and electric to be here observing it, like I'm breaking a rule. And maybe I am. A bouncer from the door asks me, is everything okay? But I tell him, I'm just watching. And he nods. That's fine. Like everything in life, the line is not what I expect it to be. A woman in her 50s dressed for the airport? She's waved in.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
A Middle Eastern guy in his 30s, alone, wearing a functional hiker's backpack? He's also in. Two young Eurotrash gentlemen dressed for Ibiza? They get the not tonight. Most people today, though, are getting waved in. The ones who don't, they walk away looking like they somehow knew before they heard the words. The whole thing, it feels like watching something that's already happened, happen.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Like the divorce papers or the marriage license that shows up in the mail a year later. Eventually, my friend takes me to the shorter line that they usually wait in, the list for regulars. It's much faster than the main one. I wait as people shuffle to the front for the bouncer's inspection. It's my turn now. I stand in front of a bouncer, not Sven, one of his underdoormen.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
So it was seeing the places where the music was being played and understanding that they were underground and sort of illegal. To you, part of what you were looking for as a young punk kid, it didn't feel so clean and commercial and whatever.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Shruthi Pinamaneni. And it's produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Fact-checking this week by Claire Hyman. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Armin Bizarrian.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
If you enjoyed this story, or if any of our stories this season made you laugh, or think, or gave you something to talk about, please consider supporting our show. You can do it at searchengine.show. It'll help us plan our second season, which we are already at work on. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Reese-Dennis.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Thank you to everyone in the Kudelmudel and to Laura Salm and Kel Fasane. Thanks also to the labels, Ostkut Ton and Trezor, for letting us dip into their catalogs. We've distilled our reading and homework into a single techno playlist. I will link to that playlist in my newsletter, which you can also sign up for at searchengine.show.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Perrello, and John Schmidt. And to the team at Odyssey, J.D. Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchison, Matt Casey, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Shuff. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at UTA. Follow and listen to Search Engine for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Thanks for listening. See you in two weeks.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
I remember having the same feeling as a teenager, but listening to punk music in Philly. When I tried to listen to it first as recorded music, I couldn't hear past its roughness. But then I went to my first shows. In some repurposed church basement, a DIY show where bands full of kids played for an audience of kids, all flying arms and spit and sweat. There, the music came alive for me.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Likewise, Sven found he loved the people who he met at the squats and the empty warehouses where Berliners showed up to dance to this new music.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Sven was transformed in Berlin, from a hardcore kid to a raver. He became a DJ. He's actually DJed at Berghain. And he's written a history of Berlin techno called Der Klang der Familie, The Sound of the Family. He's now a full participant in the techno scene, a subculture he once thought he hated. Okay, can you just tell me, like, the origin story of techno music? Like, where is it born? Oh, God.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
What was happening in Detroit that people were like, we should make music with synthesizers and dance to it? Why did that happen?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Techno is like craftwork and parliament stuck in an elevator? Huh. I've always tried to understand music, any music, by listening to the lyrics. It's part of why techno is actually hard for me to crack. It just doesn't have many lyrics. But I need to understand techno because I've been told that that understanding is part of my mission, this plan to break into Berghain.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
And the story Sven has to tell me about techno, it's about all the meaning that gets imprinted into music without lyrics. It's about Detroit, this place that was in the 1970s, experiencing all this strange and inexpressible history, history that would somehow be encoded into techno as the music that was being invented here. So here's how that happens.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
At the end of the 1970s, the city of Detroit is in some trouble. The U.S. auto industry is beginning to sink, taking Motor City with it. But it's just the beginning of that decline. And Detroit still has something that was rare in American cities back then. A black middle class. In a Detroit suburb called Belleville, three of these middle class kids are obsessing about music.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
One of those kids is Derek May, who Sven just mentioned. The other two, Juan Atkins and Kevin Saunderson. They're staying up late, listening to this very weird radio show, hosted by a mysterious DJ named The Electrifying Mojo. Awesome. 84.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
That voice belongs to the DJ. And the crazy thing is that all this hyped up shit he's saying, the prototype of your musical future, the sounds of sounds to come, all of this is actually true. The electrifying mojo did see the future.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
So you've got the electrifying mojo, this unusual visionary mixing genres on the radio that tamer DJs kept on separate dials or off the air entirely. He's playing records for five hours at a time. And you have these three kids from Belleville who are listening to this strange radio program. And it's not just them. A bunch of other young Detroiters are listening. Jeff Mills, Mad Mike Banks.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
And these listeners decide to start making their own music, inspired by the sounds they're hearing. Juan Atkins puts out a track called No UFOs. He's made it on an 8-track recorder and his Roland TR-909 drum machine. The track is synthy like Kraftwerk. The beat is funky like Parliament. There's also this doomed science fiction feeling to it. This dance track about UFOs over Detroit.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
This music isn't just imagining a future for Detroit, it also seems to be mourning its past. I hear that in this track Temptation by Final Cut. The four on the floor beats, they're construction sounds. The sounds of what the city is losing bleeding into this music.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
This new form of music, both enabled by technology and sometimes about technology, it ends up with an appropriate name, techno. Detroit would become known as the birthplace of techno, a metropolis where raves were thrown in grand abandoned buildings in the broken down city.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Dancers entering spaces that didn't even have working lights, dancing while holding flashlights, catching glimpses of all sorts of strange human behavior in the dark. The feature of this music that I most notice is how it loops. It loops in a way that sounds, to some people, meaningless, but to others, deeply meaningful. What can seem repetitive often isn't.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
The same pattern returns, but now it's been complicated by some change in frequency or energy, an element added, an element removed. This is a stripped down, and it turns out, for many, surprisingly powerful kind of music. Techno would begin in Detroit, find homes in small pockets of cities in North America and Europe, perhaps most consequentially, Berlin.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)
Welcome to Search Engine. I'm PJ Vogt. You're listening to the second part of our story, Why Didn't Chris and Dan Get Into Berghain? In March, I found myself on a tarmac in Berlin, holding yet another book about the history of German techno, cramming, I suppose, for a very strange kind of test.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Surge Engine is sponsored by Viore. Viore is a new perspective on performance apparel. It's perfect if you're sick and tired of traditional old workout gear. Everything is designed to work out in, but it doesn't feel or look like it. It's extremely comfortable. You'll want to wear it all the time. I promise you it is more comfortable than whatever you're wearing right now.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
The people on the highway of the internet today want to look at the trailer for the movie. Let's slap that on our website. Like, it was so undifferentiated. Everybody posts, like, the John Oliver clip. Like, everybody posts Saturday Night Live. Like, just everyone's selling the same product with very little differentiation.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
The example I always think of is, it felt like a decade ago, every single news site was writing articles just called, What Time is the Super Bowl? Do you want to tell that story? Yeah.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
It could be anything, which is sort of tricky, actually. often we settle for trying to understand and explain very recent history. Stories that have unfolded in the past few years, which, with the benefit of hindsight, we can now understand more clearly. The rise of fentanyl, the fall of Sam Bankman Freed.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
After the break, the temperature keeps rising. As the quality of search results declines over the years, as websites become generally crappier in an effort to get noticed by Google, the death spiral continues. More death spiral after these ads. Search Engine is brought to you by Fresh Direct. I really like FreshDirect.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
When I go to the grocery store, for some reason, my brain goes into screensaver mode, and it takes me forever, and I get lost, and I come back with half of the things I actually need. So I end up saving hours a week just using FreshDirect. FreshDirect is farm to kitchen, food sourced directly from farmers, fishermen, and ranchers, and delivered straight to your door.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Because of this, I'm paying for the quality of food, rather than just paying someone to go to a store for me. FreshDirect says they are seven days fresher than the grocery store. And honestly, you can tell the difference. The convenience is unbeatable. You can grocery shop from your office or your couch whenever you want. The most recent thing I ordered from FreshDirect was a fennel bulb.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
I mean, I had other stuff too, but the fennel was really good. For over 20 years, Fresh Direct has been delivering the freshest fruits, vegetables, and meats to the tri-state area. Don't take my word for it. Try to believe it with $50 off your first order. Go to freshdirect.com and use code SEARCHENGINE. That's freshdirect.com, code SEARCHENGINE, for new customers to save $50 on their first order.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Terms and restrictions apply. See site for details. Search Engine is brought to you by Rosetta Stone. There's a lot of reasons to learn a new language. One of my favorites, cognitive benefits, improved brain function. My brain has not been very good. Studies have shown that learning a new language can improve memory, problem solving skills, and even delay the onset of dementia.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
It might be too late for me, but it's not too late for you. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app. It truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. Rosetta Stone has been a trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Lifetime membership has all 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. Search Engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine. That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
There's one story, though, we keep bumping into this year, a story that we're in the beginning or maybe the middle of, which I find myself too curious about to resist trying to understand as it unfolds. A couple months ago in March, we spoke to journalist and fellow podcaster Ezra Klein. The question we posed to him was, how do we survive the media apocalypse?
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. Welcome back to the show. So Casey had told us the story of the what time is the Super Bowl era, the chapter in which august American news outlets were competing against each other to be at the top of a predictable annual Google search.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
I remember when Google changed its website so that Google itself could just tell you what time the Super Bowl was. And I remember thinking, that makes sense. I'd understood why the publishers had wanted the web traffic, but a news industry designed to tell you what time the Super Bowl is is just not that healthy of an industry. So no big deal.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
I was not savvy enough, however, to notice what it might mean as Google gradually put more and more of the information that would have lived on various websites onto its own front page. When you saw them start to answer those questions themselves, as someone who studies the power that platforms have relative to the industries that depend on them, did you make note of that shift?
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
I mean, I feel like the other experience you could have in the last 10 years on Google was that...
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Sometimes when you search something that could appear in one of those boxes but didn't appear in one of those boxes, you would end up on a website that gave you that information but had been so designed for Google that the experience of actually landing on that website... The example that I see people refer to a lot is recipes, where for whatever reason the Google algorithm decided it liked longer articles.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
The most privileged link would not be a recipe for tomato soup. It'd be like... a five-page essay about what tomato soup meant to someone and their grandmother who gave them the soup recipe and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're scrolling down and you're like, why is this written this way? This is completely insane, but it's written that way for Google.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
And at that point, you're like, could Google just please tell me what tomato soup is made out of? I'm pretty sure it's tomatoes.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
At the time, all these online news outlets were dying. BuzzFeed News had been killed. Traditional newsrooms like the Washington Post and the LA Times were shedding staff through layoffs and buyouts. And as a person who loves reading human-written, fact-checked sentences on the internet, who depends on those sentences, I felt alarmed.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
It's weird. It's like, I can't, I always try to come up with metaphors for things. And I'm like, I want it to be like, okay, like the American highway system, like the highway system, which is just meant to connect towns. Eventually, you know, it's like people put up stores on the highway and the highway itself reshapes it.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
But I feel like what happened with Google and the internet is more than that. Like, I feel like it's like as if, the map became the thing instead of the thing it was describing. Do you know what I mean?
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Because like everyone has experienced that, but what made that happen?
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
We did look this up. We're professional podcasters. Alphabet, Google's confusingly named parent company, made $307 billion last year. Google Search alone accounted for $175 billion. The New York Times, by comparison, $2.4 billion.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
The product is incredibly versatile. It can be used for just about any activity, running, training, swimming, yoga, but it's also great for my favorite form of exercise, which is lounging on a sofa. Also, Viore is 100% offsetting their carbon footprint. They're using better sustainable materials for their products to empower your best active life. Viore is an investment in your happiness.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
I wanted to understand this moment, and I wanted to hear ideas from smart people about how to prevent it. Ezra had insights. He had suggestions for how readers could push back. If you haven't listened, please check that episode out. But since then, our apocalyptic moment, it has just kept rolling on.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Right. It's funny. It's like Google's really two businesses that even within themselves are sort of in competition. There's like the search part of it where we're serving people who want to find stuff on the internet.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
And the advertising part of it, which is like we want people who are trying to find stuff on the internet to get distracted on their way and stop at our store or stop at the advertiser's store. And it's like I wonder if even within the company they feel like search and ads are in combat. Yeah.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
So tell me about this most recent news. What happened?
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
The scenes from this apocalypse are so bizarre and spectacular, I sometimes can feel myself disassociating, like while I was watching this video last week. In California, on a psychedelic stage, a YouTuber slash DJ was crawling out of an oversized coffee mug while wearing a rainbow kimono. The DJ then started howling the name of the company whose event he was opening.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
I feel like what you just said is, let me put it this way. Put it this way. Recently, I had seen a different search engine. I think it was Perplexity that was sort of doing the same thing. And we talked about this on Search Engine. We were talking with Ezra Klein. It was like, this seems kind of bad. They're like taking the journalism, but they're not paying for it.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
What's going to happen to underlining journalism? That seemed like a moment. Google unveiling this functionality. Would you say this is a bigger deal?
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
I wondered if Google wouldn't do the same thing because I feel like, okay, as a journalist, I understand why I don't want this to happen because it makes us less valuable. It makes our jobs more precarious. As an internet user, I understand why people... I have used perplexity. I have found perplexity to be useful, but I also feel like I'm like...
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
pirating music, except for the thing I make, so I feel worse about it. Sorry, musicians. I thought Google might not do it because I'm like, yeah, in the short term, you're giving people a better user experience. But if you roll this thing out, and I don't know how to estimate how many journalists lose their jobs from this, but 10%, 20%, 40%, you're killing the input for the machine that you need.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
And it seems that Google needs that machine more than a perplexity or an arc. So I thought maybe they wouldn't.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
You're not somebody who is like... One of the things you and I talk about sometimes, we're not talking into a microphone, but I guess also talking into a microphone, is that like... To be clear, we mostly talk to each other via microphones.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
But I feel like we're both... Tech journalists in our generation, for the most part, tend to be incredibly skeptical of tech companies, incredibly paranoid about what they're releasing, and with good reason. That's earned skepticism, earned paranoia. I feel like you and I are a little bit unusual in that we're still sort of stubbornly- We have some optimism in us. We have some optimism in us.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
My feeling about AI has been like, I'm not just going to try to go destroy the machines with an ax. I want to see how this is good. I want to see how this is bad. And maybe this is just my solipsism where it's like, well, you weren't worried about Dolly, but now you're upset about this. But like, it's unusual for me to hear you talk about things in this dire way.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
I want to say, correlation is not always causation.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
This is how the world ends. Not with a bang, but with a DJ set from an internet personality. This was Google's annual developer conference, Google I.O., the event where every year, Google announces which technological breakthroughs the company has in store for us. 21 minutes later, after the DJ had tuckered himself out, the show began in earnest.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
After a short break, if Google shutting down a huge chunk of traffic to news sites is as big a deal as Casey fears, what are the possible solutions here? How can someone putting their work on the internet safeguard their ability to make a living? That's after these ads.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Search Engine is brought to you by Seed. Whether you're off to the pool, hiking, or traveling this summer, you're bringing your microbiome with you too. The 38 trillion bacteria that live in and on you, especially your gut, are essential to whole body health. Seed's DS01 Daily Synbiotic benefits your gut, skin, and heart health in just two capsules a day.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Your body is an ecosystem, and great whole body health starts in the gut. Your gut is a central hub for various pathways through the body, and a healthy gut microbiome means benefits for digestion, skin health, heart health, your immune system, and much more.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
With clinical trials and breakthrough research published in top scientific journals, Seed's probiotic research and development makes DS01 a product you know you can trust. Support your gut this summer with Seed's DS01 Daily Symbiotic. Go to seed.com slash search and use code 25search to get 25% off your first month.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
That's 25% off your first month of Seed's DS01 Daily Symbiotic at seed.com slash search, code 25search. Search Engine is brought to you by Mint Mobile. You know when you discover a new binge-worthy show or a song that you bump on repeat and have to share with your friends so they can experience just how awesome it is?
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
That's kind of what it feels like when you discover that Mint Mobile offers premium wireless for $15 a month when you purchase a three-month plan. It's such an awesome deal, there's no way to keep it to yourself. Normal cell phones cost over $100 a month for a plan. 15 bucks a month is a great deal. Friends don't let friends overpay for wireless.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Say bye-bye to your overpriced wireless plan and switch to Mint Mobile. To get this new customer offer and your new three month premium wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com slash search. That's mintmobile.com slash search. Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com slash search. $45 upfront payment required, equivalent to 15 bucks a month.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
The moment that shook me, that shook a lot of people, it came after CEO Sundar Pichai had made his opening remarks. He introduced Google's head of search, who walked on stage to funky elevator music.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
New customers on first three month plan only. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. Welcome back to the show. I have to say, I was feeling unusually defeated hearing Casey describe what he thought was about to happen with the internet. I wanted him to walk me through the possible solutions here.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
How other people were thinking about the problem of these AI bots chowing up the work of human beings and spitting out good enough summaries. Most things are fixable. I wondered what the possible fixes were. For instance, the most tried and true American response to anything. Lawsuits. Couldn't journalists and publishers just sue Google or sue whoever's napstering their work?
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Right. And it seems like of all the possible futures you could imagine, there's ones where the courts are like, you do kind of have to pay them some money. There's ones where they say, no, no, no, this is aggregation. This is what you guys were doing with humans. But there's no world where they say, turn off the machine. Right.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
You're a person who publishes on the internet. You're a publisher. You're not an enormous company, but you're someone who is swimming in the same ocean that you're worried is being destroyed. What does it mean for you?
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Liz Reid explained that Google search was about to fundamentally change in a way unlike anything anyone had seen in the last quarter century.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
They have We did a story like last year about Andrew Leland, interviewing Andrew Leland about his blindness. And he was saying how he uses this app called Be My Eyes where you can connect with a human being and they will tell you like, hey, your shirt doesn't match your pants or whatever.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
And one of the things OpenAI demoed was this video where Be My Eyes is now AI-powered, and they were showing a person who did not have sight walking down the street holding their phone, and their phone was saying, the cab's here. Put your hand up. Buckingham Palace is in front of you. The flag indicates the king is there. And I'm like, I'm not against this. This is progress. This is amazing.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
I just want the work I love and the web I love to exist in the future.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
When we talked about this on Search Engine last, and it's weird, I really feel conflicted where I'm like, when you said that this feels to you like the only story in some ways, that's how I feel. And I'm like, I don't want to belabor people's patience with my curiosity with this, but it really feels like... Global warming's a bigger deal. Climate change is a bigger deal.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Google will do the Googling for you. These seven words, I'm not kidding. They made me feel deeply uneasy in a way that announcements at tech conferences rarely do. What Liz Reid means when she says Google will do the Googling for you is that from now on, frequently when you ask Google a question, what's the best Bluetooth speaker or what's happening with the war in Ukraine?
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
But it feels like climate change for the thing I love, and it feels like it's happening so quickly, and it's very hard for me not to think about it a lot. When we spoke to Ezra about it, I was like, what do you do? And Ezra, being an ethical person who believes that people should act ethically, was like, look, if you love journalism... it is incumbent on you to pay for it. And I agree.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
People should pay specifically for search engine. And if they have money left over in their budget, they should pay for platformer. Or maybe search engine twice and platformer once. I pay for platformer. Thanks, BJ. Of course. I pay for search engine. Thank you. We're modeling good behavior to the internet. That also feels like, yeah, people should do that. But like...
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
It feels like the problem is larger than $5 a month. What do you think the solutions are?
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
What does it mean to take them seriously except for to worry?
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Talk about the Fediverse. But in a way that my mom can understand it.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Instead of being sent links to articles written by humans, the AI will read those articles and just provide you with its own summary. There will be links in the footnotes, but you can skip them. On its face, a totally useful feature, but as we watched the media apocalypse arrive, this seemed like a pretty obvious accelerant.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
My mom is kind of a false flag in this because the truth is like, here's what I understand about the Fediverse. I understand that there were people who watched Twitter go up in flames and said, never again should one man be able to control the algorithm. And so from now on, among Twitter clones, of which there must now be 1,000, each one bad in its own specific way,
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
The Fediverse means that you will be able to have an account that is not linked to any one of those sites, and that I could post a boring post on threads, but it could be read by angry people on Blue Sky. The idea that these things are federated amongst each other, but not centrally controlled.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
But honestly, if you said, keep explaining the Fediverse for five more minutes, I'd be like, I've run out of steam. I don't really get it.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
But could it work? It feels like this is like so under-informed and I should not be saying it into a microphone and putting it on the internet and maybe I won't. But like, it feels like one of those ideas where you're like, yeah, it'd be nice. But like, you know, like things that are civic and volunteer and like parks that end up being trashed and then everybody just goes to the mall.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Almost without exception, every website on the internet depends on Google for traffic, for audience. Google now seems to be saying, that highway we've built, we'll be closing the exits.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
I can't think of one. Okay, so maybe the Fediverse saves us.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
A report from the Wall Street Journal suggested that online publishers, the average of which is already limping and coughing like a 20-year-old cat, could now expect to lose as much as 40% of their remaining traffic. I wanted to talk to someone who could explain all this, how we got to a place where Google defines so much of the internet, and what to make of this new change.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
All right, Casey, I'll see you on the Fediverse.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Okay, so I started a Mastodon account and then I forgot the password. Yeah, that's the single most common story about the Fediverse, by the way. Really? Pretty much. I went on threads and I was like, this is very boring. You do post there. I see your threads post. Don't pretend you're above threads. I post episodes of Search Engine, but I don't like hang out and make funny jokes.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Well, maybe you should try it. Maybe you'd enjoy it. Maybe I'll try to make a joke on threads and see how it feels. Casey, thank you for talking about the past and future of the internet we have loved. You're welcome. Casey Newton. His newsletter, Platformer, is essential to understanding our quickly changing internet.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
You can also find him on the wonderful weekly technology podcast, Hard Fork, with his co-host, Kevin Roos. Did we do a good enough job explaining the Fediverse this week? I feel like I'm still a little confused by it. So maybe you're also still a little bit confused by it. As far as I can tell, one way to think of the problem of Google search is that it's a problem of monopoly.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
If the internet had more than one popular search engine, the entire web wouldn't have been somewhat corrupted by trying to appeal to Google. And Google wouldn't then have had to replace many of its useless web results with AI summaries. On a federated internet, people with followers can take their followers with them from platform to platform. So maybe that internet resists monopoly more easily?
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
So, of course, I called up Casey Newton, the genius tech reporter behind the Platformer newsletter, co-host of the Hardfork podcast, I wanted to talk to Casey because I knew he actually had some very different ideas about possible solutions to this apocalypse. And besides, if I was going to watch the world begin to burn, I knew who I wanted to sit next to. Hello? Casey, how's it going? I'm good.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
I don't know. Honestly, I'm still a little confused how that fixes search and AI. You know what? If people want more Fediverse talk, email us, and we'll consider revisiting this in a future episode. If you want less Fediverse talk, email us and let us know too. How in the weeds should this show go? It's a question for you to help us answer. Journalism is a service industry.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
You can reach us at searchengine.show. After the break, we have a podcast recommendation, which has to do with the themes of this episode. Stick around.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
So as we've been thinking about Google's effect on the internet and about small publishers trying to survive, we've been closely watching the launch of one of my favorite new news websites, 404 Media. They cover the internet, they are brilliant reporters, and they're a small, independent outfit like us. they feel like a canary to me.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Like, if they can make a business succeed online, I'm a little bit less worried about the future. And I know other journalists who are watching 404 with the same question right now. What's relevant here, though, is that the team at 404 are very much at the mercy of Google's algorithms.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
And recently they posted an episode where they just talked candidly about what it's like for a small group of humans to try to survive while fighting AI websites that are constantly scraping their work. You should go listen to that episode. It's called Why Google is Shit Now. I found it really fascinating, and it just goes way more in-depth to answer the question a lot of people have.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
For our listeners, Viore is offering 20% off your first purchase. Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at viore.com slash pjsearch. That's Viore, V-U-O-R-I dot com slash pjsearch. Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but you'll also enjoy free shipping on any US orders over 75 bucks and free returns.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
How come even before this AI thing, Google search just seemed to mostly stop working? You can find out there. I'm going to put a link in our show notes. Also, as we mentioned last episode, we are right now heading towards the end of season one of Search Engine. We're doing a board meeting with all of our paid subscribers on Friday, May 31st, to discuss show business.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
That's business about the show, not news about Hollywood. The meeting, Friday, May 31st, 1 p.m. Eastern time. We will be sending out a Zoom link to join week of. This is only for our paid subscribers, people who are members of Incognito Mode, If you're not signed up, there's still time. Go to searchengine.show.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
You can also send us questions there that you'd like to hear answered at this board meeting. And if you sign up, you'll get a lot of other stuff, which you can read about on our website. Again, that URL is searchengine.show. If you're a paid subscriber, look out for an email with a link next week and mark your calendar, May 31st, 2024, 1 p.m. Eastern.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Shruthi Pinamaneni, and is produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Fact-checking this week by Holly Patton. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Armin Bizarrian. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Reese-Dennis.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Perrello, and John Schmidt. And to the team at Odyssey, J.D. Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchison, Matt Casey, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schaaf. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at UTA. Follow and listen to Search Engine for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Am I coming through okay? Yeah. You're coming through loud and clear. I think it's even recording your voice. Good, because it's one of the most important parts of podcasting that I've learned. Without it, it's just purely a theater of the mind.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Thanks for listening. We'll see you soon.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Not only will you be the first three-peater, Kelva and Ezra... I mean, Kelva's been very vocal about wanting to come back three times before Ezra, and I don't think he saw you coming in from the other lane and knock him out.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
So, okay, before we get to this week's news, can you just give me the prehistory? Like, can you tell me the story of Google search? Yeah.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
And why? I mean, I remember, like, I'm really not enjoying how often I find myself saying I'm old enough to remember in a non-ironic way. But I am old enough to remember the other search engines. Like I remember AltaVista. I remember Ask Jeeves. I remember using like AOL search.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
And I remember the feeling I got when I first used Google, if I remember it correctly, was almost the feeling you get with like a good like chat GPT type product. We're like, oh, this is better. This feels different. What was happening under the hood that made Google work better than what preceded it? Yeah.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Yeah, it's funny. Now we have so many—I think it's not true, but there's that idea that Eskimos have so many words for snow. We have so many words for either technology making us feel bad or capitalism behaving in ways that we feel conflicted about.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Go to viore.com slash pjsearch and discover the versatility of Viore clothing. This is Search Engine. I'm PJ Vogt. No question too big, no question too small. Each week, the small staff of our show meets in a sunny office in one of the tall buildings in New York City's least charming neighborhood, and we try to decide what we should pay attention to.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
And people talk about extractive models, and there's all these web products where it's like, you like it, but it's doing something to someone that's bad. Right. It's offering you something, but it's like pulling something out of your back pocket while it's doing it.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
And you're right, in the early stages of Google, in the first chapter of the company's history, it's like, this is great for everybody, actually.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
And so another question that I've always wanted to ask someone who would know, there was a moment where it was like there's a bunch of search engines and Google is the superior one. What happened that Google became, like, I know not literally the only one, like one could use Bing, but why did Google pull out so far ahead and never get caught?
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
And at what point does the news industry, does the media industry start to enter into this relationship with Google?
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
It's just such a strange thing. Like it happened and so it seems normal, but it's weird to contemplate the idea for how infinite the internet is that really the most normal experience you would have on it is you search something on Google and you visit one of three to five links or you go on one of the handful of social media websites and then that's it.
Search Engine
How do we survive the media apocalypse? (Part 2)
Yeah, and you know, it's like sometimes as a person who has worked in online media for my entire adult life and spends most of my time thinking about what tech companies have done wrong and not what media companies have done wrong, it is funny how much in that chapter of internet, how much of what got published would just be every single website, whether they're a video game review site or a national newspaper or a blog or whatever, would just be like, hey...
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
Surge Engine is sponsored by Viore. Viore is a new perspective on performance apparel. It's perfect if you're sick and tired of traditional old workout gear. Everything is designed to work out in, but it doesn't feel or look like it. It's extremely comfortable. You'll want to wear it all the time. I promise you it is more comfortable than whatever you're wearing right now.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
Hello, search engine listeners. Before we begin today, I just want to apologize for the quality of my voice. I've gotten myself a bit sick, but I'm going to play you a conversation from the before times when I still had a functioning voice. Okay, how's this working?
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
A few weeks ago, I hopped on the line with someone I've known for a long time, someone I really admire. Hi, Anna.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
We'll see you next time. Are you a finance professional looking for a better way to maximize productivity and cut wasteful spending? Look no further than Ramp. Ramp is a corporate card and spend management software designed to help you save time and put money back in your pocket. Ramp gives finance teams unprecedented control and insight into company spend.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
With Ramp, you're able to issue cards to every employee with limits and restrictions and automate expense reporting so you can stop wasting time at the end of every month. And now, get $250 when you join RAMP. Just go to ramp.com slash engine. ramp.com slash engine. ramp.com slash engine. Cards issued by Sutton Bank, member FDIC. Terms and conditions apply.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
One of our sponsors this week is LinkedIn. When you're hiring for your small business, you want to find quality professionals that are right for the role. That's why you have to check out LinkedIn Jobs. LinkedIn Jobs has the tools to help find the right professionals for your team faster and for free. Search Engine is a very small show, which means hiring is very important.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
Anna Sale. She makes a podcast I love called Death, Sex, and Money. It is absolutely the best titled podcast that exists. It does not hurt that the podcast itself is also very good. She interviews all sorts of people with unusual life experiences and asks them the kind of questions you typically reserve for the people you're closest to. That's how I think of the show anyway.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
LinkedIn lets us know who out there in radio is looking for work and provides high-quality candidates when it's time to interview. LinkedIn is not just a job board. LinkedIn helps you hire professionals you can't find anywhere else, even those who aren't actively searching for a new job but may be open to the perfect role.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
In a given month, over 70% of LinkedIn users don't visit other leading job sites. So if you're not looking on LinkedIn, you're looking in the wrong place. Two and a half million small businesses are using LinkedIn for hiring. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com slash PJSearch. That's LinkedIn.com slash PJSearch to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
How do you explain your show to people? Like when you meet strangers places?
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
The product is incredibly versatile. It can be used for just about any activity, running, training, swimming, yoga, but it's also great for my favorite form of exercise, which is lounging on a sofa. Also, Viore is 100% offsetting their carbon footprint. They're using better sustainable materials for their products to empower your best active life. Viore is an investment in your happiness.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
And then when you say that to people, do they start saying to you the things that they want addressed on a show like that? Like when you say like, oh, we talk about the things that people think about a lot but should talk about more, are people like, oh, that reminds me, I'm afraid to die.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
Like the name of the show has unlocked a sort of permission barrier or something.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
When Anna and I first met, we were working at the same radio station. I was a lowly temp worker. She was a star there. A political reporter everyone seemed to be in awe of. Young, talented, and accomplished, except, and this is pretty rare in media, all of those things and liked by everyone. It sort of felt like she could do whatever she wanted to.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
This episode of Search Engine is also brought to you by Shopify. When you think about businesses whose sales are rocketing, like Feastables by Mr. Beast or Thrive Cosmetics, sure, you think about an innovative product, a progressive brand, and buttoned down marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the business behind the business, making selling, and for shoppers, buying, simple.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does selling better than Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling, on the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
upgrade your business and get the same checkout Mr. Beast uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash S-E-N-G, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash S-E-N-G to upgrade your selling today. shopify.com slash S-E-N-G. This episode is also brought to you by Mint Mobile.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
You know when you discover a new binge-worthy show or a song that you bump on repeat and you have to share it with your friends so they can experience just how awesome it is? That's kind of what it feels like when you discover that Mint Mobile offers premium wireless for 15 bucks a month when you purchase a three-month plan. It's such an awesome deal, there's no way you can keep it to yourself.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
Every other wireless provider I know is like $100 or more, so I do have to say $15 is a very good deal for wireless carriers. Friends don't let friends overpay for wireless. Say bye-bye to your overpriced wireless plan and switch to Mint Mobile. To get this new customer offer and your new three-month premium wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to mintmobile.com. That's mintmobile.com.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobile.com. $45 upfront payment required, equivalent to 15 bucks a month, new customers on first three-month plan only, speeds slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan, additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
And then one day she announced she was not going to cover politics anymore. She was going to make this new show, Death, Sex, and Money, where she asked people these private questions about their lives. She's been running the show steadily for a decade. They had a brief brush with podcasting mortality late last year, but I was very happy to see them cheat death.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
I've been on this funny trip lately where I've been trying to figure out what podcasting is for, why I am doing it. I'm still figuring it out. But Anna is one of the people I've bounced these questions off of a little bit. I feel like one of the ways we are sort of like...
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
artistic comrades is that we're curious about other people's lives, but also sometimes I can hear in your show a person who is figuring out their own life as well. And like you have been asking questions about these three topics that are the kinds of things that people think about deeply and often and sometimes in anguish.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
That was the Death, Sex, and Money episode titled The Night Magic Mushrooms and Jam Bands Help Me Walk Again. You can see Jim Harris' art and a portfolio of his wilderness adventures at Perpetual Weekend. Anna says that they first heard about Jim's story in a piece in Outside magazine. The original episode was hosted by Anna Sale and produced by Andrew Dunn.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
You can hear more episodes of Death, Sex, and Money wherever you get your podcasts. And you can find Psilocybin at... Just kidding. We will be back with not one, but two new episodes of Search Engine next Friday. Wow. See you then.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
How has what you've cared about changed since you started broadcasting the show a decade ago?
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
For our listeners, Viore is offering 20% off your first purchase. Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at viore.com slash pjsearch. That's Viore, V-U-O-R-I dot com slash pjsearch. Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but you'll also enjoy free shipping on any US orders over 75 bucks and free returns.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
I have this hope that someday soon, talking about uncertainty and ambiguity as values will start to feel like buzzwords. Like, there will be enough of us aiming at that point on the horizon that when I hear someone saying they care about that stuff, I'll feel like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we all do. But I don't feel that way, not yet. Right now, those still feel like watchwords.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
And I really do get those feelings from Anna's show of someone thinking and wrestling and trying to not too quickly make up their own mind. And that's part of why I wanted to share an episode of it with you this week. At Search Engine, we're trying to make the show we'd want to hear, and we get a fair amount of emails from people who like what we do and ask, what else feels like this?
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
And death, sex, and money, for me, feels like this. So Anna and I are crossing over this month, sharing stories with each other's audiences. We got to pick a death, sex, and money episode to play for you. The one I chose is about this man named Jim Harris who lives in Colorado. Jim fell into a deep depression a couple years ago after a spinal cord injury left him partially paralyzed.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
Jim, trying to navigate the grief of that situation, ends up seeking out music and psychedelics, psilocybin, and then has a very crazy experience on mushrooms, not the kind you've had in college. Jim's at a concert when some of the feeling in his body actually returns. That story and that conversation begins now.
Search Engine
Death, Sex & Money x Search Engine
Go to viore.com slash pjsearch and discover the versatility of Viore clothing.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Surge Engine is brought to you by ShipStation. These days, it feels like every device we use is getting smarter and more connected. We have smartwatches. We have Wi-Fi enabled LED light bulbs. The world keeps getting smarter. Your e-commerce business should too.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
When I go to the grocery store, for some reason, my brain goes into, like, screensaver mode, and it takes me forever, and I get lost, and I come back with half of the things I actually need. So I end up saving hours a week just using Fresh Direct. Fresh Direct is farm-to-kitchen, food sourced directly from farmers, fishermen, and ranchers, and delivered straight to your door.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Because of this, I'm paying for the quality of food, rather than just paying someone to go to a store for me. FreshDirect says they are seven days fresher than the grocery store. And honestly, you can tell the difference. The convenience is unbeatable. You can grocery shop from your office or your couch whenever you want. The most recent thing I ordered from FreshDirect was a fennel bulb.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
I mean, I had other stuff too, but the fennel was really good. For over 20 years, Fresh Direct has been delivering the freshest fruits, vegetables, and meats to the tri-state area. Don't take my word for it. Try to believe it with $50 off your first order. Go to freshdirect.com and use code SEARCHENGINE. That's freshdirect.com, code SEARCHENGINE, for new customers to save $50 on their first order.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Terms and restrictions apply. See site for details. Search Engine is brought to you by Rosetta Stone. There's a lot of reasons to learn a new language. One of my favorites, cognitive benefits, improved brain function. My brain has not been very good. Studies have shown that learning a new language can improve memory, problem solving skills, and even delay the onset of dementia.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
To catch you up, last episode, we were talking to platformers Casey Newton about this huge change that had just been made to how Google Search worked. Our episode, I will admit, a slightly doomy installment for a show that tries to, if not avoid the doom, at least steer away from it. Jim, I got your message. I'm sorry.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
It might be too late for me, but it's not too late for you. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app. It truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. Rosetta Stone has been a trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Lifetime membership has all 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. Search engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine. That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. Welcome back to the show. So just a refresher on Reddit as a business, not a website, in case that is helpful here. Founded in 2005 by two college roommates, Steve Huffman and Alexis Ohanian, joined by the late internet pioneer Aaron Swartz. The company was acquired a year later by Conde Nast, the magazine publisher.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
At the time, it seemed like a strange investment, but it turned out to be a shrewd one. Conde bought Reddit for cheap, reportedly between $10 and $20 million for what is currently one of the top 10 most popular websites in the world. Over the years, Reddit has made money chiefly through ads, but these ads are display ads.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Relative to some of the more invasive or targeted ads you see online, display ads are not usually incredibly lucrative. Reddit went public. It IPO'd just a couple months ago in March of 2024. And ahead of that IPO, you got the feeling that the company was looking for ways to become more profitable. As part of this, Reddit had just announced a licensing deal with Google.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Reddit would allow Google to use most of the content on its website as training data for Google's AI. Katie Antopoulos said that at the time, this seemed like a good deal for both sides.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
But the news we were responding to was that Google was increasingly replacing search results that had human written information with AI-generated search answers. The way this new feature would work, the AI would now draw on the vast corpus of human knowledge on the internet to just answer user questions itself.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Tell me what happens to Google when Google's AI robot ingests Reddit and treats it as gold standard human knowledge.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
I used it the first time I saw it. I was at a bowling alley and I was throwing the ball into the gutter over and over again. And I Googled, how are you supposed to roll a bowling ball? And it came in like a pretty good thing. You keep your arm close to your side. You aim at the arrows, not at the pins. It helped for like two frames.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
There was this guy at the lane next to me who was like super ripped and like killing it. And then I realized he was like heaving the ball and he had the bumpers up. I was like, sir.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Right. And so what I saw happen almost immediately was that people noticed that on Reddit, sometimes people either are wrong or try to be funny. And some of those are very funny. And if you're a human being, you might know what a joke is. And if you're an AI, you might not know what a joke is. Like, what were some of the results you saw that people were sharing?
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
According to the head of Google's parent company, the reason for this new feature is that many Google users would prefer to just not have to sift through a bunch of search results. Instead, the company wanted to let Google do the Googling for you. This change may have also been rolled out because the quality of much of what is Googleable is not always that wonderful anyway. And in the last year,
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Just to jump in here for a second, I should say a Google spokeswoman told the New York Times that the vast majority of AI overview queries resulted in, quote, high-quality information. And she said of these bad results that, quote, many of the examples we've seen have been uncommon queries.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Which she didn't say, but what Google may have thought is most people are just not going to start eating rocks or whatever because a search engine told them to. Although, one person did choose to take these deranged search results very seriously.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
And so when you saw that, what did you decide to do?
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Whether you're looking for incredible efficiency or your business has outgrown your old shipping solutions, ShipStation helps you take the next step. ShipStation's features are a game changer for your business. You can easily automate shipping tasks and manage orders from one simple dashboard. All your automations will allow smooth printing shipping labels at the click of a button.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Before Katie tells us what glue does to the human intestines, we're going to take a quick break. Before these ads, a free PSA from Search Engine. Do not eat glue. Do not eat pizza with glue in it. Do not eat food at Katie Nantopoulos' house. Okay, some ads. Search Engine is brought to you by Betterment. Do you want your money to be motivated? Do you want your money to rise and grind?
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
AI spam has already begun to clog up a lot of the websites that Google might want to index. So just giving people searching for a question the answer saves Google some of the work of trying to sort the wheat from the chaff online. I had reservations about this big new change. We talked about those reservations last episode.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Do you think your money should get up and work? Don't worry, Betterment is here to help. Betterment is the automated investing and savings app that makes your money hustle.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Their automated technology is built to help maximize returns, meaning when you invest with Betterment, your money can auto-adjust as you get closer to your goal, rebalance if your portfolio gets too far out of line, and your dividends are automatically reinvested. That can increase the potential for compound returns.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
In other words, your money is working like a dog while you can be sleeping like one and snoring like one too. You'll never picture your money the same way again. Betterment, the automated investing and savings app that makes your money hustle. Visit betterment.com to get started. Investing involves risk. Performance is not guaranteed. Search Engine is brought to you by Seed.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Whether you're off to the pool, hiking, or traveling this summer, you're bringing your microbiome with you too. The 38 trillion bacteria that live in and on you, especially your gut, are essential to whole body health. Seed's DS01 Daily Synbiotic benefits your gut, skin, and heart health in just two capsules a day. Your body is an ecosystem, and great whole-body health starts in the gut.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Your gut is a central hub for various pathways through the body, and a healthy gut microbiome means benefits for digestion, skin health, heart health, your immune system, and much more. With clinical trials and breakthrough research published in top scientific journals, Seed's probiotic research and development makes DS01 a product you know you can trust.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Support your gut this summer with Seed's DS01 Daily Symbiotic. Go to seed.com slash search and use code 25search to get 25% off your first month. That's 25% off your first month of Seed's DS01 Daily Symbiotic at seed.com slash search, code 25search. Search Engine is brought to you by Polestar.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Polestar's new electric SUV, the Polestar 3, genuinely drives like a sports car, going from zero to 60 in as little as 4.8 seconds and an EPA-estimated range of up to 315 miles. Did we mention it's 100% electric? Polestar 3 operates on a custom-developed Android automotive OS, which takes your infotainment center a step further, holistically connecting to the car.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
It also has seamless voice commands and active road noise canceling. Book your test drive today at Polestar.com. Welcome back to the show. We now return to an ordinary kitchen in an ordinary home in an ordinary state, New Jersey, in which, nonetheless, something was about to happen that possibly had never before happened in all of human history. Have you ever made pizza before?
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
What I could not picture just a few weeks ago was how funny the next phase of things would be. Google rolled out AI overviews widely in mid-May. Lots of people started using it for the first time. And it turned out the way the AI would answer questions was sometimes chaotically insane. The problem was that the AI Google used to answer readers' questions had ingested much of Reddit.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
How do you store it? I think the Reddit post, if I recall right, did specify non-toxic glue. How did you decide what type of glue to use?
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
You're asking the same AI that told you to eat glue. I feel like you're not even learning the lesson of your own joke.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
The other thing is, like, a person with a very limited understanding of either chemistry or human biology, my fear would not just be that there's something in it that at a certain dose is toxic, but I would also think, like... glue makes things stick together and you're putting it through your intestinal tract. And like, what if just two things stick together inside of you?
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Do you know what I mean? I don't even know. I can't draw a stomach for you, but I can just imagine things happening. It would be bad.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Yeah, it seems to point at the whole problem of it, which is the Internet's always been a place where you have to be a smart consumer of information in a way that we all always sometimes fail at. But at least you had... Context clues. And it feels like what is tricky about AI, at least as it exists right now, is that you've lost a lot of your context where you have to dig harder to find it.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Like you can't actually see what ingredients are in the thing that you're eating as clearly.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
And while Reddit can be a source of useful information, it can also be a source of lies and jokes. And the AI seemingly could not tell the difference. Google's users were told things like, quote, eating at least one small rock per day is recommended because rocks contain minerals and vitamins that are important for digestive health. A crazy week on the internet.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
But the same internet that tells you to eat glue on pizza tells you the glue is safe to eat. How do you get the glue into the pizza?
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Did it like change the color of the sauce when it went in? Yes.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
So I wanted to talk about Reddit, both its history as a source of sometimes good, sometimes questionable information online. I wanted to talk about how it came to be a website that Google's AI consumed. And I wanted to know what happened to the one person who did, in fact, make a glue pizza and consume it.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Had you not known that the glue wasn't a thing, would you have thought, oh, this is an unusually successful pizza cut? Because normally you kind of want bubbles and you want sizzle.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
And you can't ethically blind taste test anybody else. It's not like you can like... Just tell a friend, like, have a bite of this.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
And did it stop the cheese from sliding, which is the whole thing it was supposed to do?
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
So I invited one of the least trustworthy chefs on the internet to search engine, Katie Natopoulos. Okay, before we get into any of this, how do you describe your job to people?
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
being what people go to when they have questions they don't want someone asking chat gpt what air filters should i buy they want people using google yeah i find it confusing as someone who i'm excited that we're living through a moment where things are changing even if i don't know whether those changes will end out positive or negative like i'm just like oh something new and i'd like something new i find ai so vexing as a thing to try to understand because it's like one minute i can feel fully convinced
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
oh my God, this is going to be so destructive because it's so effective and because it's so powerful. And the next minute, it's like telling people to put glue in their pizza. It's just really confusing. Like it's really confusing to figure out like, oh, is this like a funny bug that then they'll just train the AI and nothing like this will ever happen again?
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Or if there's a lesson in it, which is that the trade-off of AI might be that as we have less transparency around the sources of information— Maybe we'll need different skills for finding good information online three years from now than we did five years ago.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Yeah. How about for you, how are you searching the internet now? Like right now in this moment where everything's up and down and the ocean's a little choppy, like who's your librarian? I mean, I still use Google for most stuff.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
I have been following your work forever. I don't think there's anyone who covers the internet the exact way you cover the internet. Like the way I would describe it is that you're both like a sharp observer of how the internet can either incentivize or induce strange human behavior in its users, but then also someone who sometimes chooses to behave strangely on the internet.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Okay, last question. We're talking at the end of May. The 2025 Pulitzer Prize satellite opens in December. Have you submitted the video of yourself eating pizza with gluten already? Do you wait until the entry is officially open?
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
That makes me so happy to hear. Katie, thank you.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Katie Nantopoulos. She reports and blogs at businessinsider.com. Business Insider is where Katie first wrote about this pizza glue adventure. This was the article that finally made me subscribe because I wanted to see the video. We'll have a link to that in our newsletter.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Surge Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Shruthi Pinmaneni, and is produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Fact-checking this week by Holly Patton. Theme and sound design by Armin Mazarian. Our show was mixed this week by Matt Boll. Matt actually helped create a brand new show called Reflector.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Their debut episode is about a medication that is said to cure alcoholism. And it asks the question, why aren't more people using it? Go check it out. It's called Reflector. That's the show, not the medication. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Reese-Dennis. Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Perrello, and John Schmidt. And to the team at Odyssey, J.D.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchison, Matt Casey, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schaaf. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at UTA. Follow and listen to Search Engine for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening. We'll see you in two weeks.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Like you do a lot of kind of human guinea pig style reporting. Can you just tell me like some of the things you've done either for fun or research online?
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Yeah, like you constantly want to explain it. Like you're like, I know that this is not the right choice, but it's the choice I made for specific reasons.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
This was the first thing that I interviewed you about. Yeah, that's right. You unfollowed all men on Twitter. And it's funny, this was like several, the gender politics of the internet were different. I know, several cycles ago.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
You'll save thousands on shipping with industry-leading carrier discounts. Lead your business into the future with technology built to save you from extra costs and headaches. Lead your e-commerce business into a smarter future with the shipping software that delivers. Switch to ShipStation today. Go to ShipStation.com and use code SEARCH to sign up for your free 60-day trial.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Before we get into the most recent news, Google's AI shenanigans and Katie's latest experiment involving eating gluey pizza, I wanted to ask her about the prehistory of her current moment. This year, one of the most popular listener questions for our show has just been people wanting to know, why doesn't Google search work for me anymore? What's gone wrong?
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
The same reason people have been searching Reddit instead of the wider web is why the two of us were talking about Reddit this week. Because as the rest of the internet has degraded, Reddit has remained one site that lots of people still go to for advice, for product recommendations, for their general questions about the world. Which was not always the case.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Reddit has had a recent-ish evolution from under-moderated mess to what it is today.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
That's ShipStation.com, code SEARCH. Hello. We were not actually supposed to publish an episode this week, but then something happened that was so directly and frankly so absurdly related to our last episode that we wanted to make a quick one for you because the world continues to be very strange, and as it does, it's sometimes hard to resist the urge to document it. So we're here.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
It's funny, as you say, I'm like, basically like 2005 to like 2011, 2012 Reddit. I'm like, that is the peak of that. It feels like everyone on the site is the...
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
comic book store guy from the simpsons exactly and then there's like a turn where it's like connie nest acquires them it becomes i think like a pretty successful moderation story where they do start to figure out how to have both relatively free speech and relatively few nazis and like i remember reply all days covering like oh what are they going to do about the donald what are they going to do about this there's this virulent subreddit that's targeting people and like you don't really see those stories in the same way anymore
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
Yeah, I find it to be actually a place where I go now not to witness horrible human behavior, but to get, like, okay advice about things that I am curious about.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
What I struggle with with Reddit, and I use it, like I totally use it, but like I have an uneasy relationship with it because I find myself distracted all the time wondering, is this true? Like even Am I the Asshole, which I love, it's always somebody describing some conflict they're in. Almost always the person is behaving in a completely
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
completely terrible way and is completely wrong or like it's it's never hard like either the person is totally in the wrong or they're like the kindest little church mouse and it's like my roommate has started like taking money out of my pockets and like wearing all my clothes and I asked him to stop but I'm always like is it true and I start with that with Reddit in general where I'll use it I'll use it I'll use it and then I'll see people on Reddit discussing something that I actually know about and
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
And the level of people just being like completely certain or just like lying. And I'm like, oh, this might be all of it. And so I try to use it only for things like gardening tips where it's about expertise rather than about knowledge, if that's a differentiation.
Search Engine
How much glue should you put in your pizza?
After a short break, how the website where people yell at you about your TV being too high on the wall or hanging over a fireplace was fed into Google's extremely expensive artificial intelligence robot brain. That's after some ads. Search Engine is brought to you by Fresh Direct. I really like Fresh Direct.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Hello! This week's episode is an old-fashioned internet mystery, except with a bit of an unusual twist. It's both a story about tracking down something extremely valuable that was stolen online, and it's also an attempt to understand why that thing, a digital image of a bored ape, would be so valuable in the first place.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
There are actually a couple of motivations behind the celebrity NFT craze. But the thing that Dick Doyle is alluding to here is the motivation I found the most surprising. So a lot of people in Hollywood really did want to believe that NFTs were the future of media. They wanted NFTs to help them solve this problem that had been plaguing them for years, which had to do with intellectual property.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
So some backstory here. Hollywood has always had this constant hunger for new stories to tell. Sometimes they've solved it by buying the rights to existing stories. Articles, books, Disney amusement park rides. We know this. But with the rise of all these streaming companies, there's even more demand for new stories.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
And these frothy market forces have begun to have funny effects on other industries. Like, for instance, my industry, journalism. I very distinctly remember when I became aware that something had changed. I was working at a brand new podcast company. I'd been there for about a year. There was something like 20 employees and maybe three times as many mice sharing a rented warehouse space.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
And Hollywood came calling. There was someone who wanted my boss to option the story of our company itself. Like they wanted to make a TV show about our very boring existence. And it happened. Zach Braff played my boss.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
This TV show ended up being watched by easily tens of people. It was a flop. But Hollywood keeps making bets like that. And those bets change how people think about the work they do, or even how they live their lives. Because the same way any image could, in theory, be an NFT, any work you do, or honestly, even if just a crazy story happens to you, that could be the next big TV show.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Anna Delvey, the fake socialite scam artist who went to jail? Netflix paid her hundreds of thousands of dollars for her life rights. It's like there's a gold rush, and any IP you own is one more pan that could find a nugget. What I hadn't realized, though, is that this hunger to own IP has also spread to celebrities. And part of the way they're trying to pull this off is through NFTs.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
You had everyone from Brie Larson to Gwyneth Paltrow, Therese Witherspoon, talking up NFTs because they don't just want to star in movies, they want to own the material the movie is based on. So this motivation, owning IP they can make work from, that actually drove the rise of the most ubiquitous NFT collection last year, the Bored Ape Yacht Club, the much maligned pictures of cartoon monkeys.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
The company behind them, Yugo Labs, had this brilliant twist on how NFTs could work. If you bought a Bored Ape, you didn't just get digital ownership of the image, you also owned the underlying IP rights. Meaning, if you own a Bored Ape, you had the legal right to make a restaurant around your Bored Ape, a theme park, or you could try to make a movie.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
This is a video recorded back in May of 2014. We're at a technology conference in Manhattan where, in a few moments, something surprisingly consequential is about to be born.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Last year, Dick Doyle's email inbox was clogged with these Bored Ape movie pitches.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Well, it's funny because it's like, if I bought the rights to Star Wars, I can make a star Wars movie about like Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker and like Leah, but with bored apes, even though you have the IP rights, it's like, you just have like the IP rights for like one of the guys in the space bar or something like that.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
So that was one motivation for the celebrities who got into NFTs. They had these high-flying ideas about IP ownership. But there was another class of celebrity with perhaps simpler motivation, which brings me to this video clip that I saw a lot of people losing their minds over in January.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
So for me and for a lot of people that I knew, the moment that NFT, the idea that there was like an NFT celebrity alliance was this Paris Hilton Jimmy Fallon interview in late January. Did you see that?
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
I was going to send you the clip, um, or actually maybe I can screen share. Maybe this will work. Hold on. Do you see this?
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
On stage, sitting behind matching MacBooks, we have a technologist and an artist. The artist's name is Kevin McCoy. He and his wife Jennifer make digitally native art, just art that's meant to live on the internet itself. And tonight, he's taking this gift that she made.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Okay, so it's Paris Hilton sitting next to Jimmy Fallon. She's in a green dress.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
I know, it really isn't. They're talking about how much they love their Bored Apes, and they're holding up pictures of their Bored Apes, and they're talking about how their Bored Apes are like, they look just like them, which they don't look just like them.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
And it's just like you feel like you're watching an advertisement for something that doesn't make sense. It feels fundamentally strange. Yeah. That was when people I know started talking about this. Do you remember that moment? I do.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
So this mysterious common thread that Dick Doyle is alluding to that he doesn't even want to talk about anonymously. There is this internet theory that the thing that tied some of these NFT shilling celebrities together was that they shared the same talent agency. A reporter named Max Reed pointed this out.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
That it seemed a little weird that this one talent agency also happened to be an investor in a big NFT marketplace in OpenSea. From my reporting, it seems like it's actually more than just one agency. It seems like, broadly speaking, a lot of agents are responsible for the many celebrities who are directly pitching NFTs to their fans. The motivation there was money.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
The problem was a lot of fans were able to discern this, and it upset them. And why do you think those celebrities didn't understand that that pushback was going to be a thing?
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Take Paris Hilton, for example. She has endorsed her own fragrance line, including Tease Fragrance, Dazzle Fragrance, Siren Fragrance, there's 29 of them, including my favorite, Eris Fragrance.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
But also, Guess Jeans, Azure Urban Resort Residence, Emirates, the airline, not the country, a Brazilian beer called Devasa Bemlora, don't look it up, it translates to something rude, Hardee's, Carl's Jr., a Grand Prix motorcycle team, her own canine apparel line, and, for some reason, also... Roblox. I could go on. And I will.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Dreamcatcher's hair extension line, a mobile game called Diamond Quest, a canned sparkling wine called Rich Prosecco, Uber Eats, SodaStream, Fila, Viome, the at-home gut biome test, Bee Magazine, the Israeli lottery, a German website called Go Yellow, Dubai, the city this time, a Brazilian fashion brand called Triton, and, according to Paris, the company who sold her ex-fiancé a $2 million engagement ring.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Paris Hilton endorses more products than most people do. She's an influencer. It's a significant part of her income. But a lot of celebrities depend on endorsements. And at least some of them just thought, how are NFTs really so different from anything else?
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
I mentioned at the beginning of the story that I've avoided covering NFTs in the show, in Crypto Island. And the reason for that is pretty simple. I've said before, but my goal with this series is just to report on cryptocurrency in a fair-minded way. And NFTs are a challenging topic. People feel so many intense emotions about non-fungible tokens.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Some of that anger probably partly due to the Paris Hilton's of the world. And at the same time, what an NFT actually is or will be feels very complicated, feels very up in the air. Which is why I've not yet, on this podcast, opined on digital images of monkeys. But then, something happened. Which is that in late May, my hand was forced.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
He's got a few of these gifs. And he explains that what's actually special about them is not the art itself. It's where they've been put on the internet. The blockchain.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
I got an email from a listener about this story I'd sort of been tracking. The story was this. Seth Green, the comedic actor, is an NFT collector. And he bought some bored apes with big dreams of making a TV show starring his NFTs. The jaunty music you're hearing underneath, this is the sizzle reel for the show. It's called White Horse Tavern.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
You see the kind of sitcom bar you've been seeing since the 1970s, the wry, lonely bartenders, the lovelorn patrons, except half the people are comedy actors you recognize. The other half are NFTs. It's like BoJack Horseman meets Cheers if BoJack Horseman loved Web3. The plan was that White Horse Tavern would be a TV show based off the IP Seth Green owned from his NFTs. But then...
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
the NFTs were stolen. A thief fished Seth's wallet, stole his NFTs, including BoredApe8398, the star of the show. That kidnapped ape had been sold to a third party, a user who went by the name Darkwing. And now Seth was pleading with Darkwing on Twitter to make a deal with him. Without the deal, without the NFTs and their underlying IP, it was unclear if this TV show would continue.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
So that was the story. After the break, an internet sleuth in Singapore tries to track down Ape8398. Surge Engine is brought to you by Row Body. If you've heard of Ozempic or Wegovy, you've probably heard three things. They're effective, but they're expensive, and they're hard to get. That's where Row comes in.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Through Row, you can access prescription-compounded GLP-1s with the same weight-loss ingredient as brand-name GLP-1s at a fraction of the cost. Roe has compounded GLP-1s in stock now. You can get it in one to four days if you qualify. Roe members have support through the process. If eligible for medication, patients have access to their provider on demand for any questions.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
You can see if you qualify from the comfort of your home. That means no scheduling doctor's appointment, no commute to the doctor's office, and no waiting rooms. If prescribed, your medication ships in one to four days. Go to ro.co slash search engine. Memberships start at just $99 for your first month. Medication costs are separate. That's ro.co slash search engine.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Go to ro.co slash safety for black box warning and full safety information. Compounded medication is not required to and does not receive FDA review or approval. Prescription only. Search Engine is brought to you by SpotPet. Searching listeners know that I love my dog more than anything else in this world. I want to be buried in a pyramid with him when he dies or when I die.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Whoever goes first, we're going together. I want to share a message from our trusted companion in helping you be ready for any unexpected vet visits. Spot Pet Insurance. Spot pet insurance is your virtual ally against the unexpected.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
With spot plans, you can receive up to 90% cash back on eligible vet bills, helping to transform unforeseen expenses into manageable moments of care for your cherished pets. Spot pet insurance plans go beyond just offering coverage for accidents and illnesses. Access to a 24-7 vet telehealth hotline is included with every policy, so you can ask an expert all your questions.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
To help everyone understand what it means to put the record of who owns a piece of art onto the blockchain, they're going to, right here in this room, sell another GIF they've made. The technologist, his name is Anil Dash, and the artist Kevin asks him, Hey, are you interested in some animated GIF art?
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
You can also enhance your plan with their preventative care benefit. Helping ensure routine wellness, vaccines, and more can be covered too. Head over to spotpet.com for an instant quote today. I think I'm supposed to read this part super fast, so I'm going to read this part super fast. Ready? Disclaimer. Pay to add from Spot Pet Insurance.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Waiting periods, annual deductibles, co-insurance, benefit limits, and exclusions may apply. For all terms, visit spotpetins.com slash sample policy. Insurance plans are underwritten by either Independent American Insurance Company or United States Fire Insurance Company and produced by Spot Pet Insurance Services LLC. Search Engine is brought to you by Seed.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Whether you're off to the pool, hiking, or traveling this summer, you're bringing your microbiome with you too. The 38 trillion bacteria that live in and on you, especially your gut, are essential to whole body health. Seed's DS01 Daily Synbiotic benefits your gut, skin, and heart health in just two capsules a day. Your body is an ecosystem, and great whole body health starts in the gut.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Your gut is a central hub for various pathways through the body, and a healthy gut microbiome means benefits for digestion, skin health, heart health, your immune system, and much more. With clinical trials and breakthrough research published in top scientific journals, Seed's probiotic research and development makes DS01 a product you know you can trust.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
I talked to this corporate investigator named Paul who currently lives in Singapore. Turns out, for some reason, my ability to record conversations with people in Singapore seems deeply cursed. The audio of the conversation is not great, but we did work it out. This person Paul had emailed me to say he'd done the amateur version of one of the investigations he normally does for work.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
He'd searched the blockchain to learn more about the current owner of the kidnapped ape. He wanted to know who this Darkwing character might really be. Just for fun.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
A story of a heist that is also asking, was the thing that was stolen itself a kind of scam? I really love this story. It ended up being a snapshot from atop the height of the NFT frenzy. It also happens to include one of the funniest interviews with an anonymous or pseudonymous source I've ever gotten to conduct. I hope you enjoy it. We'll play it after some brief ads.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Right. Wait, what do you mean you were trying to put your thumb on the scale? Like you weren't trying to be like, Seth, go get him.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
It's so funny that you're like, I just want to stop and observe that like you're, I don't know how to characterize it. It's almost like you're like a Greek god that doesn't want to interfere in the affairs of mankind.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
I got a good... The absurdity of all this, it's making the room a bit giggly.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Paul. not a fan of NFTs or of crypto. But like me, he's a fan of learning stuff online. And as a professional internet sleuth, he was excited at what new opportunities for spying on people the blockchain offered. And he figured it out. He knows who Darkwing84 is. And he mostly solved this through the kind of social media sleuthing that would be familiar to most of us.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
He started with the helpful fact that Darkwing84 used the same handle on his OpenSea account, where you can see every NFT he owns and how much they're worth, as he does across social media.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Sure. Yeah, they're like really, they're kind of like, they're street art photography. There's like a picture of a statue. Double exposure. Picture of a statue. Yeah. It looks like very like... I'm not trying to... It looks like someone who is a relatively new photographer enjoying experimental photography. Exactly. So the theory at this point is that Darkwing is an amateur photographer.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
They land on a price, $4, and moments later, the deal is done.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
But what Paul was really interested in were just the likes on these photos, because he figured those likes were breadcrumbs. He assumed Darkwing84, in addition to his anonymous account, had another normal main account under his real name. And he figured at least some of the people who were liking those photos were probably friends with Darkwing in real life.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Those likes could be breadcrumbs that would lead back to Darkwing's main account. So he laboriously goes one by one through the photos. And then on one of them, a photo of a red statue, Paul finds a like from this other account, ostensibly a friend of Darkwing's.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Okay. Wait, sorry. I'm scrolling through. Yeah. It's all like, it looks like somebody who works in advertising portfolio. It's like all these, it's packaging for a tea company. It's like ads on a bus. Okay. And then what was the one that didn't fit that stuff?
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
So to recap, on this Instagram page for a friend of Darkwing's, all the way at the bottom, underneath all the commercial work, is this one photo that very much looks like it was taken by Darkwing himself. The colors are intentionally oversaturated. It's another double exposure. Lots of red and brown, which is sort of a Darkwing motif. And the photo caption has a credit to the photographer.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
It links to an Instagram account with a real name. Not going to say name on the podcast, but the initials, DW.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
There's additional circumstantial evidence, but maybe we can leave it at that. I think, I feel, I feel like you've probably found the individual. So what do, what are, what... I don't know what to make of that. Like, it's such a weird state of affairs to be like, because this person didn't steal the NFT from Seth Green. Right. Someone stole the NFT from Seth Green and then they sold it.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
I mean, they could be the same person, but it seems unlikely. It seems like the thief took it and then this is the person who basically bought stolen goods without realizing it.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
For Paul, this was the point of the story. And for him, honestly, the point of crypto. He's an investigator. His job is to find information about people online who don't want to be found and to find information about their assets. So to Paul, the blockchain is a godsend. Whenever technology lurches forward, it reveals things about humans by accident.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
There's a whole wave of politicians who ended up in early aughts texting-related scandals, not because they were behaving more scandalously than the politicians before them, but because they didn't exactly know how to use their new smartphones.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
And now we're living in a moment where if an executive at a podcast company suddenly starts pushing really hard to make an expensive Bored Ape Yacht Club podcast, you might be able to just look at their online wallet and see that they happen to own one. It's all kind of crazy.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
For me, though, after my conversation with Paul and his revelations about Darkwing, I was left uncertain about what to do next. I knew where some stolen goods had ended up. Seth Green had asked the Internet for help summoning Darkwing to him. But I'm a reporter, not Seth Green's rent-a-cop. Fortunately, I didn't have to worry about that. Because on May 30th, Seth Green tweeted, Good news, friends.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
At Darkwing84 and I connected. Working together to prosecute the original thieves and hopefully make the space safer. Huge thanks to Bored Ape Yacht Club community for maintaining the collaborative spirit of the project. Can't wait to see you at hashtag White Horse Tavern. So, conflict resolved. And yet still, I felt unsettled. I guess because I was left with the same questions I'd begun with.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
This thing they've invented, they don't call it this in the room, but it will soon be named an NFT, a non-fungible token. That clumsy phrase non-fungible, it just refers to the idea that each piece of art has a unique value, unlike two Bitcoins, which will always be worth the same as one another. That moment we just watched, very recent history, 2014.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Strictly speaking, I understood what had happened to Seth Green. He'd acquired an NFT, he'd lost it, been returned. But my real question remained, why was Seth Green even doing this in the first place? And how should I feel about it? Those were the questions that had prompted that conversation with my friend Dick Doyle. That's why I'd called him in the first place to ask about celebrities and NFTs.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
And I'd actually asked him about Seth Green specifically. I don't know. Like what, what is your read on him and on this show?
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Well, you'll be happy to know, according to Seth Green's Twitter account, he was able to, or at least he's in negotiation for the return of his apes.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
That's it for Crypto Island this week. We reached out to all the celebrities in this story. They declined, probably because they have better things to do. But it might also be that celebrities who were talking a lot about crypto the past few months mostly are not now. The crypto markets continue to slide. The NFT market in particular is in quite rough shape.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
The floor price for Bored Ape Yacht Club, the price at which you can buy the cheapest one, was down 54% this past month. Although, honestly, even at the low, they're still hovering over 100 grand as of this recording. Since we first broadcast that story, Seth Green's board ape television show, White Horse Tavern, never materialized.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Dick Doyle reported that pretty much everyone in his life identified who he really was and said he regrets using a pseudonym. And as of today, the absolute cheapest board ape for sale is going for about $3,000. Crypto Island is edited by Shruti Pinamaneni. Sound design and mixing by Stephen Jackson and Phil Demachowski at Audio Non-Visual. Fact-checking from Elizabeth Moss.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Research help from Garrett Graham. Theme song by Christine Andrews. Also, we couldn't re-record the credits for last week's episode because it was recorded in a bathroom, but Shruti edited that episode as well, and Garrett provided research help on that episode too. We have one more episode from Crypto Island to share with you next week. After that, new episodes of Search Engine.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
But from there, the genie sprints out of the bottle. Three years later, Ethereum users are making giant NFT collections. You can buy a very valuable pixelated image of a face and then join a community with everyone else who owns slightly different versions of the same face. you all root for the price of the faces to go up together. There are crypto punks, there are crypto kiddies.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
These are essentially expensive baseball cards for crypto nerds to trade. Three years after that, late 2020, is when things become, from a financial perspective, completely unhinged. The high-end art world discovers the market. People are buying and selling NFTs at prices to make a lottery winner lose their lunch.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
One of those trippy NFTs that that artist Kevin made with his wife, one that he kept instead of selling for four bucks, it sold last winter for $1.5 million. At Sotheby's, of course. Today, that idea of an NFT has come to mean a lot. People buy and sell the ownership rights to all sorts of digital assets. There are NFTs of songs, NFTs of sports highlights. You can buy an NFT domain name.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
But at the same time that people are spending gobs of money collecting these things, there's still some very good unanswered questions about what they're really useful for, besides speculation. Here on Crypto Island, I've sort of been avoiding the topic of NFTs, but there's this big news story involving a celebrity who'd had some mishaps with a high-profile NFT purchase.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
I'm going to explain what happened later. For now, I just want to tell you that the investigation into the celebrity NFT theft got me on the phone with a person who was able to help me answer a question that's been bothering me all year. As NFTs have become more expensive and more ubiquitous, what was behind the strange, perhaps unholy alliance between celebrities and NFTs?
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
That question answered after the break. I really like FreshDirect. When I go to the grocery store, for some reason, my brain goes into screensaver mode, and it takes me forever, and I get lost, and I come back with half of the things I actually need. So I end up saving hours a week just using FreshDirect.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
FreshDirect is farm to kitchen, food sourced directly from farmers, fishermen, and ranchers, and delivered straight to your door. Because of this, I'm paying for the quality of food, rather than just paying someone to go to a store for me. FreshDirect says they are seven days fresher than the grocery store. And honestly, you can tell the difference. The convenience is unbeatable.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
You can grocery shop from your office or your couch whenever you want. The most recent thing I ordered from FreshDirect was a fennel bulb. I mean, I had other stuff too, but the fennel was really good. For over 20 years, Fresh Direct has been delivering the freshest fruits, vegetables, and meats to the tri-state area. Don't take my word for it. Try to believe it with $50 off your first order.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Go to freshdirect.com and use code SEARCHENGINE. That's freshdirect.com, code SEARCHENGINE, for new customers to save $50 on their first order. Terms and restrictions apply. See site for details. Search Engine is brought to you by Rosetta Stone. There's a lot of reasons to learn a new language. One of my favorites, cognitive benefits, improved brain function. My brain has not been very good.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Surge Engine is brought to you by ShipStation. These days, it feels like every device we use is getting smarter and more connected. We have smartwatches. We have Wi-Fi-enabled LED light bulbs. The world keeps getting smarter. Your e-commerce business should, too.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Studies have shown that learning a new language can improve memory, problem solving skills, and even delay the onset of dementia. It might be too late for me, but it's not too late for you. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app. It truly immerses you in the language you want to learn.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Rosetta Stone has been a trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered. Lifetime membership has all 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. Search engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine. That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. Welcome back to the show. What do you want your pseudonym to be for the purposes of this? Can you just say my friend? Yeah, I can just say my friend. Do you have to name me? I don't have to name you. Yeah.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
I think sometimes I get a little, like, perhaps too excited about the cloak and dagger of it all.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
I won't call you Dick Doyle. I'll just say my friend. So my friend, Dick Doyle, was talking to me from his living room on his daughter's iPad. He works pretty high up in Hollywood. He manages some legitimately famous people. He's not the kind of person I usually know. But we met last year. I was going through a period where I felt pretty lost.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
And he was a stranger who showed up to offer some advice and encouragement. And I really liked him. He's funny. He's reverent. He's very opinionated. But as a reporter, I harbored an ulterior thrill to our friendship. Because Dick Doyle would often talk very candidly about the backroom world of Hollywood, a place I find both intriguing and opaque. Okay. What do you do for a living? I'm a manager.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Whether you're looking for incredible efficiency or your business has outgrown your old shipping solutions, ShipStation helps you take the next step. ShipStation's features are a game changer for your business. You can easily automate shipping tasks and manage orders from one simple dashboard. All your automations will allow smooth printing shipping labels at the click of a button.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
You're being recorded now. Yeah. This is also just a question I've always... I feel like no one that I know understands. People know that there are agents and managers, but I don't think a lot of people understand the difference.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
The people Dick Doyle manages, they're actors, comedians, writers, entertainers, basically. And his first exposure to NFTs was hearing from those kinds of people who bought them as an investment. What did you think when you were first seeing that?
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
That's how Dick Doyle felt initially, that buying a squiggle on a screen made just as much sense as buying a squiggle on a canvas. However, he did start to notice that in this new art world, in the NFT market, the vibe was a little different. There was a fire sale quality to it.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
So I fact checked this. Every frame of a Quentin Tarantino movie is not going to be an NFT, but it's not far from the truth. Quentin Tarantino is trying to sell an entire collection of NFTs based off Pulp Fiction. This is him last November, very excitedly telling a crowd of people about the conversation he'd had that made him realize all this time he'd been sitting on NFT gold.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
There were a few moments like this one last year, moments where it felt like famous people suddenly opened their eyes and realized, okay, sure, you could sell a fan your only copy of the Pulp Fiction script, or you could sell a lot of fans NFTs that include a scanned page from that very document. It'd be like owning the very genius that made the movie.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
You'll save thousands on shipping with industry-leading carrier discounts. Lead your business into the future with technology built to save you from extra costs and headaches. Lead your e-commerce business into a smarter future with the shipping software that delivers. Switch to ShipStation today. Go to ShipStation.com and use code SEARCH to sign up for your free 60-day trial.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
It's very easy to poke fun at whatever's happening in this video. But I will say, if someone told me that a copy of this script I'm reading to you right now was worth a million dollars to an internet stranger, well, I for one have certainly praised mattress companies for significantly less money.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
In any case, this Gwen Tarantino moment was a data point that suggested to my friend Dick Doyle that perhaps this Hollywood NFT alliance might not be an entirely virtuous one.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Yeah. Yeah. The mental calculation you were doing was, I mean, who knows art is subjective, but on the other hand, there's like a gold rush here that I find a little bit weird.
Search Engine
The Kidnapping of Ape #8398
Did you have clients that you had to have conversations with who wanted to do this and you had to talk about it with them?
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Today's episode is presented by SAP Business AI, revolutionary technology, real-world results. Search Engine is brought to you by Ford. As a Ford owner, there are lots of choices of where to get your vehicle serviced. You can choose to go to their place, the local dealership, your place, home, apartment, condo, your workplace, even your happy place, like your cottage on the lake.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
This bizarre moment led to Scarlett Johansson then making the rounds on TV, advocating for legislation to protect the intellectual property, really the identity of actors like herself.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
I think this was the story for me of all the stories that really stuck with me. And maybe it was because the message it gave me was a kind of impunity. And the promise, as I've understood from opening AI, has been exactly the opposite of impunity.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
And obviously, of all the choices they make, whether they find a sound-alike voice actress and do a voice that sounds a lot like Scarlett Johansson and then kind of smudge the truth, I could see a person getting overenthusiastic and making that mistake. It's the kind of mistake podcasts would make it in its first couple of years, you're like, oh, geez, oh, God, we're really sorry.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
But it seems careless. Also, this is a product where one of people's concerns is the copyright implications, where these AI companies are hoovering up a lot of people's creative work to make their products. And it just felt like what you expect from a company that doesn't care what you think and wants to do what it wants.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
It was like a tech company with a doomsday switch built into it. A recognition both of AI's potential power to reshape society, as well as an understanding perhaps that the last round of technological innovation has not been completely wonderful for the world. Our last story was about how OpenAI's nonprofit guardians had decided that the company had in fact gone off course.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
And I don't know if I'm overreading, but it was a moment that kind of like gave me a little bit of future nausea.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
So that was the Scarlett Johansson incident. Casey told me about another incident, this one from this past August. Let's call that one the lazy student problem.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
How do they explain why they're not releasing it? As someone who has had to have a conversation with a teenager about why they shouldn't cheat using open AI and really stumbled on the part where I was like, listen... It's the wrong thing to do and you probably won't get caught. And also, yes, probably all your friends are doing it.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
And then like there was like several ellipses of pause while I realized like the hole I dug myself into. Why won't they just release the homework checker?
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
It's so funny to imagine what part of their revenue is coming from high schoolers and college kids. And also, like, I don't know, maybe there's an argument that sort of like the same way we don't need to do long division. Nobody needs to be able to think or reason in an essay form. But I kind of think people still need to be able to think or reason in an essay form.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
I mean, maybe long division is important, too. I don't know. Right.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
So if we're trying to decide if we trust OpenAI to be not just a profitable company, but also a kind of unusually ethical AI standard bearer, their willingness to accept a bunch of grubby $20 bills from high schoolers who want to skip their homework and play more Fortnite, it's not the end of the world, but it is behavior unethical enough that you'd probably fire a babysitter over it.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Casey also told me about an additional incident that had given some people pause, the investments incident. This one had to do with Sam Altman personally, specifically the way he's been quietly spending his money, investing in companies like Stripe, Airbnb, and Reddit.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
In November, 2023, they deposed their own leader, suddenly and dramatically. Sam Altman is out as CEO of OpenAI, the company just announcing a leadership transition.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
I feel like one of the things where I feel a little bit disabused is I think a couple years ago, I hadn't made up my mind, but I felt very willing to entertain the possibility that Sam Altman was a very unusual kind of person, that he didn't seem to be motivated by...
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
accumulating wealth to the same degree as maybe other people are, that he might not be entirely motivated by accumulating power, that he might just have a vision for a technology that could be really useful or it could be really dangerous and thought he might be the best person to be a steward of that. I'm not saying I was right then. I'm not saying I was wrong then.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
But like, do you feel like you have a changed or refined view of what motivates this person who has a lot of power?
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
It looks like things were over for Sam Altman until his loyalists got on board with a counter coup. Nearly every rank and file employee at the company signed a petition demanding his return.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
After a short break, Casey already mentioned that there have been a lot of senior level departures at OpenAI. We're gonna dive deeper into who left and what they seemed to believe about the company they were quitting. Plus, we'll look at a fairly worrying warning manifesto published by an ex-OpenAI employee. That's after some ads. Today's episode is presented by SAP Business AI.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Revolutionary technology, real-world results. Hi, Bailey.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
I recently spoke to a listener in North Carolina who emailed us about life at her job. She was calling us from outside her office, inside her car.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
That's so funny. That's so funny. Bailey's a web designer for a company that helps promote events for clients all over the world. She told me about some of the ways she uses AI to shorten her workday.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
So you're using it not for translation, but to make sure that you're not like starting a new line in a way that would totally change the meaning of what you're trying to communicate?
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
And did you learn this the hard way that the line break can change the meaning of a thing?
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Bailey at first thought she was going to have to learn rudimentary Japanese, but then she realized software could actually help her out here. No need to learn a new language.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Thanks again to Bailey for chatting with us and Zoe for so expertly hiding nearby. Ready to elevate your business? With SAP Business AI, you can grow revenue, increase efficiencies, and manage risks seamlessly. It's relevant, reliable, and responsible. AI is embedded into SAP solutions to enable businesses to drive immediate business impact with AI embedded across their organization.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Finally, Microsoft, OpenAI's biggest shareholder, also stepped in, in support of Sam. Quickly thereafter, he was reinstated.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
It can also help you make confident decisions based on AI grounded in business data and put AI into practice with the highest ethical, security, and privacy standards. SAP Business AI, revolutionary technology, real-world results. This episode is also brought to you by Rocket Money.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
I tried out Rocket Money and I found out that I should never take a taxi cab again, and that I was signed up for a bunch of fringe streaming services I'd signed up to watch one thing on and forgotten about. So it saved me a bunch of money.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. See all of your subscriptions in one place and know exactly where your money is going. For any you don't want anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them with a few taps.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
RocketMoney will even try to negotiate lower bills for you, sometimes by up to 20%. They automatically scan your bills to find opportunities to save, then you can ask them to negotiate. They'll deal with customer service. RocketMoney has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com. That's rocketmoney.com. Welcome back to the show. So if you, like me, were at best quarter paying attention to developments at OpenAI the past 12 months, the thing you still may have noticed was just a very unusual amount of senior level people leaving their jobs.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
It was the kind of turnover you'd expect to see at a Halloween store in November, not typically at one of the most valuable new American technology companies. We've already mentioned this, but OpenAI employees were in many cases discouraged from criticizing the company. And yet, there's still been some evidence about why they left and what they saw before they did. So we're going to get into that.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
This part is not so much an incident as it is a series of incidents, a trend. Let's call this bit Sudden Departures.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
So OpenAI's rebellious board was basically replaced with a compliant one. Sam Altman, who was temporarily deemed too dangerous to run his own company, instead consolidated power there. That was a year ago.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
So you have, like, huge turnover at the top of a company that, in theory, people should want to stay at because it's, like, leading the industry. It's incredibly valuable. It's the winning team. And people are walking out the door saying they don't want to play for it.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
And so has she said anything publicly that is very decipherable about her reason for exiting?
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
In the years since, OpenAI has not turned on an army of terminators to kill us all, but the company has transformed into a somewhat different-seeming institution, with lots of strange public errors and judgment along the way. We hoped to talk to someone at OpenAI for this story. They did not make anyone available for comment. So instead, I called a tech journalist I know.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Listening to Casey, I started to imagine a potential world where AI continues to grow at whatever pace it grows at, but where OpenAI squanders its early lead in the industry and just becomes less important over time. I wanted to know what Casey thought of this possibility.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Do you think there's a world where open AI becomes less important to the future of this thing and, you know, we'll end up talking more about these other companies because these other companies have absorbed so much of the talent of that blaze?
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
So how much should we be worried about OpenAI? I guess the answer for now seems to be somewhat. If you think AI really could be powerful, and if you think AI safety is then important, it doesn't really seem like the incentives in a race to dominate the AI market are really that aligned. OpenAI might end up leading the field. It might end up being a fair child.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
But it's hard to imagine why any AI company would succeed while also moving forward with an abundance of caution, at least not without some regulation. After a quick break, we're gonna switch tracks a little bit. We talked a lot about why this technology may be concerning. A lot of people agree, so much so that on some quarters of social media, you can get shamed just for using AI products.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
But I am one of the people who both worries about AI and uses AI. And in the last year, as the technology has gotten much more powerful, I find I'm using it in stranger ways. When we come back, I'm gonna talk to Casey a little bit about how he thinks about the ethical concerns here, and also about the very bizarre way he's begun talking intimately with a machine.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
This episode of Search Engine is also brought to you by Rosetta Stone. I'll tell you why I want to learn a new language. I'm going to Amsterdam this week, and the only Dutch words I know are really, really horrific curse words that seem funny until you say them in front of Dutch people.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
A good way to learn non-offensive Dutch would be to use Rosetta Stone, the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app, one that truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. Rosetta Stone is the trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
You just stood up and just sashayed out a frame and I was like trying to figure out what I was supposed to pay attention to. Casey Newton, founder and editor of the Platformer newsletter, co-host of the Hard Fork podcast, and perhaps a sometimes too early adopter of exciting technologies. Casey's a reporter we spoke to last year when everything seemed to be exploding at OpenAI.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Spanish, French, Italian, German, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Dutch, not just the curse words, Arabic and Polish. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. Search Engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. This episode is brought to you in part by Grammarly. Your team spends over half their time writing, and we all know how that happens. One confusing email turns into 12 confused replies and a meeting to get aligned.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Go to your Ford dealer or choose Ford pickup and delivery to have your vehicle picked up, serviced, and brought right back. Or choose mobile service, where a technician will come to you and do routine maintenance right on the spot. Both are complimentary and depend on your location. That's ownership built around you.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Grammarly is a trusted AI writing partner that saves your company from miscommunication and all the wasted time and money that goes with it. So your team's words lead to results, and they can take on the next task, no matter where you're communicating. Grammarly can help you find the right tone at work by personalizing your writing based on audience and context.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
You'll get peace of mind from Grammarly's enterprise-grade security and its business model that does not depend on selling your data. Four out of five professionals say Grammarly helps them gain buy-in and action through their communication. It helps improve the substance, not just the style of their writing, by identifying exactly what's missing.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
This will help you move faster by reducing unnecessary back and forth. Join 70,000 teams and 30 million people who trust Grammarly to get results on the first try. Go to grammarly.com slash enterprise to learn more. Grammarly. Enterprise ready AI. This episode of Search Engine is also brought to you by Mubi.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
MUBI is a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there's always something new to discover. With MUBI, each and every film is hand-selected, so you can explore the best of cinema, streaming anytime, anywhere.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Out now from MUBI is The Substance, a Cannes prize-winning sensation, delirious, shocking, and absolutely unmissable. Demi Moore gives a career best performance as Elizabeth Sparkle, a pastor prime Hollywood A-lister that turns to a mysterious experimental drug in an attempt to recapture the glories of her youth.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Sensational supporting turns from Margaret Qualley and Hollywood veteran Dennis Quaid as a repellent studio exec. Critically adored with reviews hailing the film as an instant body horror classic, Rolling Stone, must be seen to be believed, Variety, the best horror film of 2024, World of Real. Visit trythesubstance.com for showtimes and tickets.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
And to stream great films at home, you can try MUBI free for 30 days at MUBI.com slash search engine. That's MUBI.com slash search engine for a whole month of great cinema for free. I'm going to try The Substance even though I'm scared of scary movies. If you watch it, shoot me an email. Welcome back to the show.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
So I wanted to ask Casey about this AI question I've been personally conflicted on and remain somewhat personally conflicted on. It's the first time in my life I've seen a new digital technology that some people despise so much. They don't want to use it at all. I see people shaming each other online for using AI at all. And that feels like...
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
a very online response to something, but it doesn't feel like a strategy. But I also, like, understand where the impulse to shame comes from. Like, how do you square it for yourself where people's jobs are important, people having jobs is important, all that money just sort of getting swept into a big pile for open AI doesn't feel, like, totally socially advantageous. At the same time, like,
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
And he's continued covering all the strange happenings at the company since then. I wanted to talk to him not because I'm a gossip hound for Silicon Valley, but because I really wondered, if AI is a technology that can really change the world, how concerned should I be about some relatively erratic behavior from the company leading the field?
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
I use ChatGPT. It's not replacing anybody's job in my usage of it, but I don't think as it became more useful, there'd be a point where I would say, it's immoral for me to use it, I'm going to stop.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Casey was happy to fill me in on what had been going on with Sam Altman and his very valuable startup since I last wondered about these things 12 months ago.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
It is wild. To me, it's really interesting that it is, in a strange way, a tool you are using to know yourself. And I don't mean to overstate it. It is also just a journal that is talking to you and giving you pointers. But I find that interesting.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
I also feel like, for whatever reason, I think because there's such a culture of we don't want to be enthusiastic about technology anymore, particularly this technology, which you don't want to end up looking like the person who was gleefully celebrating the arrival of our doom.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
There's a weird lack of just like 10 years ago, I think had this come out, there'd be a tech press that would say, here's 10 new ways you can use this. Here's how I'm using it. Nobody wants to be seen doing that, so no one's using it. I had a thing happen a couple of days ago.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
I think Sam Altman, he was retweeting someone whose suggestion was, ask your agent, from all of our interactions, what is one thing that you can tell me about myself that I may not know about myself? And I asked it this question and I got an answer and it wasn't like a fortune cookie horoscope, like vague enough that it would apply to anybody and maybe be useful anyway.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Like it was a real thing that I hadn't noticed. It was like the preponderance of your questions to me are about trying to put structure and precision around processes in your life that do not have them. You are constantly asking how long things should take and how much time to allocate. It is clearly something you're struggling with.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Which is the kind of thing, like, a good friend would tell me. Yeah. And it is not an experience I've had with software. And I don't know, like, I find myself in a moment where I'm trying to hold everything in my head at the same time to say, these are technologies we should be skeptical of and, to your point, keep paying attention to.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
And also, in the time before this possibly changes the world in ways I might not enjoy, pretty useful. Yeah.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
I mean, it's interesting because I think you're right. I think we've always used software to automate drudgery. And one way you could think of that is it does eliminate human labor. And the people who have drudgy jobs and have had drudgy jobs aren't like, I'm so glad that I've been freed to produce something else. They're upset that their sort of income is being taken from them.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Why do you think AI is the... place where these anxieties finally come to a head? Because in previous eras of software, whatever skepticism people had about it, this skepticism actually feels new to me.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
It's so funny because everybody, I mean, this would be a little bit broadly, many people in our generation are like, I would love for capitalism to not exist anymore, by which they don't mean robots do the work now and robots are your boss and robots take all the money and you're hoping for maybe universal basic income. No one meant for capitalism to go away like this.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Right. And so we continue to pay attention to this because while who knows how true these promises will come, the idea that this is socially disruptive seems like a safe bet.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
And it's funny, there's always a part in my mind when you see these stories of all these departures to say, okay, that's like the internal drama of a company that I do not have an internal view on. And it might matter, it might not. I would have to know more than I know to know.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
But to what your point is, if part of the problem is that these technologies can restructure society, we have a democratic society, but the way they're restructuring society is not democratic, then the fact that even within these companies, they're becoming more like monarchies does seem like something that's worth paying attention to.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Casey Newton. He writes the newsletter Platformer. Go check it out. You can also listen to him every week on the podcast Hard Fork. We're going to keep using you to monitor this.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
What about how are they actually running the place? Because I will tell you my perception as a person who follows this less closely than you is, I feel like I see as many stories about OpenAI tripping over its clown shoes as I do stories about how the new GPT is slightly better than the one that preceded it.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Shruthi Pinamaneni, and is produced by Garrett Graham and Noah Johns. Backchecking This Week by Mary Mathis. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Armin Bizarrian. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Reese-Dennis.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Perrello, and John Schmidt. And to the team at Odyssey, J.D. Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Kate Rose, Matt Casey, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Shove. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Can you give me the timeline of last year, which stories stuck out to you and how you thought about them?
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Contact your participating dealer or visit FordService.com for important details and limitations. Welcome to Search Engine, no question too big, no question too small. This week, should we be worried about OpenAI? So last fall, we reported a story about OpenAI, the leading company in artificial intelligence, led by charismatic co-founder Sam Altman.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
So how unusual is that? How unusual is that in tech for a tech company to say, if a person quits Facebook and then they say Facebook was a bad company, How unusual would it be for Facebook to be like, we are taking back your stock?
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
And just to like, I feel like journalists have this bias, which is like, we believe in transparency, we believe in disclosure. Sometimes I think non-journalists care less than we do because... We kind of have a rooting interest in transparency and disclosure. But it's also been really confusing, not as a reporter, but just as a human being. I don't know. There's a lot of things I worry about.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Most of them are selfish and personal. Like, what happens with open AI is... maybe in the top 500 or a couple hundred. But there is a part of my mind that worries about it. And when I worry about it and I try to like, my prediction ledger activates, I'm always like, well, it seems like a lot of people are quitting. A lot of the people work on the let's stop this from screwing up the world team.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
But they always quit and they're like, well, we just have a difference of agreement, can't say more. And it's really confusing.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
It's like what I've noticed as a user of AI. I actually noticed the safeguards. The other day I saw somebody was making a meme making fun of a celebrity online. And as often happens these days, I like didn't recognize the celebrity. And I plugged the picture into ChatGPT and I was like, who's this? Which is the main way I use ChatGPT is to say, what's this?
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
And it was like, I don't identify human beings. I was like, okay.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
That's a rule that you're following. But what you're saying is that in these fast rollouts, smart rules like that, which would stop people from using AI in a bad way or stop AI from just deciding to do things that are bad, those might be getting overridden.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
And that if all these companies are competing with each other to build the most powerful thing the fastest, one company ignoring safeguards means all the other companies ignore safeguards.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
So that is our overarching problem here. AI developers might care about safety, but in the rush to be first in the field, the company who wins could actually be the company who cares about safety the least. which is why we are talking about worrying incidents from the industry leader, OpenAI.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
So one of the incidents was this NDA incident first reported by Vox this May, and the company did backtrack on those NDAs. An OpenAI spokesperson told Vox, quote, we have never canceled any current or former employees' vested equity, nor will we if people do not sign a release or non-disparagement agreement when they exit, end quote.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
A separate incident, Casey, I dug into was the Scarlett Johansson incident.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
And I just wanted to say, before you even continue with your story, what is so weird about this movie being a huge inspiration to people in Silicon Valley is it is a cautionary, dystopian film. I saw this movie. This is not a joke. I saw this movie and it upset me so much at the time.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
I was talking to a friend afterwards and she said, I think you should probably talk to a psychiatrist and go on antidepressants. Which I did for several years. I'm not on them any longer. I went on them because of the movie Hurt.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
It is so strange to me that people saw this movie and were like, ah, we should have this. But anyway, they love it. They want to make it the future.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Right, you could see Star Wars and be like, oh, spaceships one person can pilot could be a good idea. It doesn't mean you're trying to build, like, TIE fighters to take over Alderaan or whatever.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
I completely agree, and I still think about it. So... Her comes out, tech people are like, oh, it would be really good to have an AI you could talk to. That's like one lesson from the movie. Lightsabers would be good too.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
And when OpenAI releases their voice agent, which is sort of, you know, a real life version of part of this movie, the thing that a lot of people notice is that one of the possible voices for the voice agent sounds quite a bit like Scarlett Johansson, the voice from the movie.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
The company was famous not just for its runaway success, but also for their unusual ethos and structure. Rather than simply being a for-profit company, it was a non-profit in charge of a for-profit company. And that nonprofit could seemingly disable the for-profit company at any point if it decided that the company was acting in a way that was dangerous for society.
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
After the product launched, a user on TikTok even asked ChatGPT itself if it believed it was a Johansson clone. Hey, is your voice supposed to be Scarlett Johansson?
Search Engine
Should we be worried about OpenAI?
Hilariously, the voice has never sounded more similar to Johansson's to me than when it was denying the resemblance. Casey said the company itself had also contributed to this confusion.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
So, in case you're new, I wanted to point you towards some of our favorite episodes from this year so you could work backwards. You might start with our first episode, which is called... Wait, should I not be drinking airplane coffee? It's a good one. Or some other listener favorites. Why are drug dealers putting fentanyl in everything? Should this creepy search engine exist?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
If somebody was going to sympathize with the plight of two Americans who had failed to pass its door, it was probably going to be me. At the same time, I, like them, also found this whole situation deeply funny.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
So what is, like, the thing you're trying to figure out about Berghain? Like, what is the question that I can answer?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Okay, what is the bouncer at Berghain scanning you for if you're on the cusp? And is there some other, perhaps secret way to sneak into Berghain? After the break, our investigation begins. Search Engine is brought to you by Rosetta Stone. There's a lot of reasons to learn a new language. One of my favorites, cognitive benefits, improved brain function. My brain has not been very good.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Studies have shown that learning a new language can improve memory, problem solving skills, and even delay the onset of dementia. It might be too late for me, but it's not too late for you. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app. It truly immerses you in the language you want to learn.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Rosetta Stone has been a trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered. Lifetime membership has all 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. Search Engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine. That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. Search Engine is brought to you by Fresh Direct. I really like FreshDirect.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
When I go to the grocery store, for some reason, my brain goes into screensaver mode, and it takes me forever, and I get lost, and I come back with half of the things I actually need. So I end up saving hours a week just using FreshDirect. FreshDirect is farm to kitchen, food sourced directly from farmers, fishermen, and ranchers, and delivered straight to your door.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Because of this, I'm paying for the quality of food, rather than just paying someone to go to a store for me. FreshDirect says they are seven days fresher than the grocery store. And honestly, you can tell the difference. The convenience is unbeatable. You can grocery shop from your office or your couch whenever you want. The most recent thing I ordered from FreshDirect was a fennel bulb.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
I mean, I had other stuff too, but the fennel was really good. For over 20 years, Fresh Direct has been delivering the freshest fruits, vegetables, and meats to the tri-state area. Don't take my word for it. Try to believe it with $50 off your first order. Go to freshdirect.com and use code SEARCHENGINE. That's freshdirect.com, code SEARCHENGINE, for new customers to save $50 on their first order.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Terms and restrictions apply. See site for details. Welcome back to the show. Unz, unz. When we started all this last July, all I really knew about Berghain was that it was a Berlin techno club and that it was very hard to get into. But I started researching, The club itself maintains a very minimal footprint online.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
200,000 people follow Berghain's Instagram account, but the club has only ever posted one photo in 2015, a picture of a sign that says, in all caps, TAKING PHOTOS IS NOT ALLOWED. The sign, presumably, from inside the club itself. Berghain, like Vegas, claims that what happens there stays there, except in Berghain, that seems to actually be true.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Some information about the club nevertheless has circulated. The story of Berghain, as I now understand it, begins 30 years ago. In the early 1990s, two Germans, Norbert Thormann and Michael Teufela, had begun hosting a men's-only gay fetish party, sometimes at an abandoned air raid shelter. After a few years, the party outgrew that bunker. The pair took over an abandoned railroad depot.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
At the railroad depot, they started a club called Ostgut. Ostgut was legendary, open to people of all genders and sexualities, but still a space run by and largely for gay men. A den of hedonism where consenting adults supposedly engaged in all sorts of unusual behavior. Online, at least one video survives from inside the club. But the video is pretty tame. It's from July 2000.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
This question caused a rare amount of delight over at Search Engine HQ. So we asked the two of them to come to the studio. Okay, okay. Do you guys want to introduce yourselves?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Looks like camcorder footage. A grainily shot DJ hovers over a console, twiddling knobs, while nearby, a crowd of German shadows writhes under a strobe light. Ostgut may have lived forever, except the city wanted to build a big arena. So the railroad depot was knocked down in 2003. Burghain was its reincarnation, the palace that replaced Ostgut, this time too big to knock down.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
A thermal power plant originally built during the Soviet era, four floors. On the very bottom floor, a dedicated basement gay club for men only. At the very top, a bar with big windows opening onto a panoramic view of the city. On the levels in between where the power turbines once sat, an enormous dark cavern, the main dance area.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
The entire space governed by its own particular rules, rules that are repeated breathlessly by the internet commentariat.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Berghain is best known for one weekly party, Klubnacht, club night. Club night is a misnomer because while the party starts Saturday evening, it continues all the way until Monday morning without interruption. A few books document the history of the scene that birthed this party. I found Tobias Rapp's Lost in Sound to be particularly helpful.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
He writes about how when Berghain opened in 2004, the party was by and for Berliners, but word soon spread internationally. A European budget airline called EasyJet had just opened a new hub in Berlin, and other Europeans started taking EasyJet flights to the city to come party. The legend kept growing.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Eventually, it grew large enough to draw Chris and Dan, two of the many Americans who made the pilgrimage to techno-mecca. It was a marvel. A three-day party good enough to draw thousands of people every weekend, people who would fly to Germany without even a promise they would gain admittance. That was Klubnacht at Berghain. Most of what people discuss online is not any of this.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Instead, they talk about Sven, the intimidating bouncer who Chris and Dan encountered and then cowered in front of. Sven Markhardt. Sven Markhardt is a tall, imposing man in his early 60s with giant lip rings that look like silver fangs. His hair is slicked back and silver. Tattoos of thorns cover much of his face.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Chris and Dan, two very successful, stylish young professionals, they had an annual tradition going back years. These two friends would vacation together, sometimes to exciting nightlife destinations like Berlin, the city they'd just returned from. And what's the nature of these vacations? What is your form of relaxing?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
He looks like a bad guy in a John Wick movie, and he has played a bad guy in a John Wick movie. That was just a cameo one time, though. Sven has run security at Berghain since the club first opened 20 years ago. Sven's backstory? He grew up in East Berlin, the communist side of the wall, before it fell.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
— There's this one documentary, Berlin Bouncer, that profiles Sven. In one scene, he gives a talk in front of a crowd. He's wearing all-black, tinted glasses. Sven discusses the early chapters of his life, how his teenage years were defined by the feeling of being stuck outside a much more significant kind of door.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Sven's saying, Sven has said that as a young gay punk rocker, living in East Berlin was risky. He was frequently picked up by the secret police. He was devoted to his photography career, but after the wall fell, he chose to stay on the East Berlin side, and his art career stalled there. Sven's brother was a DJ and a club organizer, and Sven started working the door at his parties.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
It turned out Sven's eye for people worked not just in photography, but also here. He had a talent for deciding who should be let in. He developed a reputation. That's why they chose him for Ostgut and later for Berghain. The fact that this much of Sven's biography exists in public, of course, goes entirely against Berghain's secretive ethos.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
But Sven has continued to pursue his photography career. And so every few years when he has a new exhibition or a photo book, he talks to journalists. Questions about his photography, which he wants to discuss, and questions about how to get into Berghain, which he has to tolerate. Those are the terms under which the gatekeepers at places like the New York Times or GQ will allow Sven entry.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
And, understanding the way of these things, he obliges. Sven, the man with the answer to our question, what was the bouncer at Berghain scanning you for? I should say, I emailed Sven and requested an interview. I've never been less surprised to be ignored. But in the documentary, there's this prickly moment where the interviewer seems to have directly asked Sven the rules of the door.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Sven responds, not with helpful tips about what shade of black to wear. Instead, he says sternly, we don't need to question the rules that are in place. He does allow that, as a selector, his responsibility is to only let people in who, once they join the party, won't impede the freedom and self-expression of the people who are already inside. It makes sense, but it does not provide clues.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
And in any situation in which official sources remain this tight-lipped, of course, speculation will reign. And it does, online, as Chris and Dan had seen, mainly on TikTok.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
They're a cottage industry of people who claim to have gotten through the door, now style themselves as helpful experts, explaining what exactly they believe Sven is scanning for when he looks at people like Chris and Dan, trying to get inside the mind of a 62-year-old gay German ex-punk.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
It's impossible to know if any of these people are actually telling the truth. Again, you can't record inside of Berghain, which means you just have to take their word for it.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Okay. And so this was your second trip to Berlin to do respectful, of whom I'm not sure.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
My favorite artifact of all the online Berghain speculation is this website called berghaintrainer.com that will actually drop you into a surprisingly high-res simulation of the Berghain line. The site takes control of your webcam and then scans your face, analyzing your emotions through your expressions. How angry, sad, euphoric your face is, giving a virtual simulation of Sven's gaze.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
And then the first person video virtually walks you step by step up to the doors of Berghain. The music gets louder as you get closer. The website warns you that Sven will ask you three questions. So I did it. When I arrived at the virtual door, a German man, presumably an actor playing Sven, asked, is this your first time here? I said yes. He asked, do you know who's DJing tonight?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
He asked whether I'd taken drugs. I said nein. After a moment of scanning, the virtual bouncer told me, Not good today. And then made the hand gesture toward the street. The same hand gesture Chris and Dan had gotten. To be honest with you, this rejection by a fake bouncer, it hurt my real feelings. I'll tell you something about myself that won't surprise you. I've never been considered cool.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
I know cool people. I'm not against coolness. I just don't possess it. I'm uncool enough that I often ask the cool people I know to explain to me why certain things are cool right now. How did we decide big pants are back in style? If you have to ask, you're not cool. And I do have to ask, both professionally and just because of my personality.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
So I'm not cool, and I'm old enough to be okay with that. But this was a little different. At Berghain, where Sven ruled, it seemed to me that the source of his power lay partly in his refusal to explain himself. My job as a journalist was the opposite, to understand and explain. And I just couldn't resist the challenge of trying to understand something that was designed to obscure itself.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
So you guys, these are a lot of like daybreaker parties where you drink water and like do yoga afterwards or whatever. Yeah. A lot of green tea. Exactly. That's the vibe. Chris and Dan, I should tell you, more conscientious and buttoned up than most people I know. Chris, who I've known much longer, he's the kind of person where, when I invite him to a party, I can set my watch to what happens.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
That was why, even after all this internet sleuthing and documentary watching, we would continue digging for the better part of a year. We'd talk to lots of people. We'd read too many books devoted to the Talmudic study of German techno, its origins and subgenres. And in the end, we'd emerge with an answer. What was Berghain scanning for and why? How would a place like this come to be?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
All that after the break. Surge Engine is brought to you by Rocket Money. I have used Rocket Money both to find subscriptions that I forgot about to cancel and also just to monitor my spending. And I can tell you, August was a horrific month for my finances. How much do you think you're paying in subscriptions every month? The answer, probably more than you think.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Over 74% of people have subscriptions they've forgotten about. I certainly did. Getting rid of it feels like getting free money in your pocket. Thanks to Rocket Money, I'm no longer wasting money on subscriptions I didn't even remember I had.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. With Rocket Money, I have full control over my subscriptions and a clear view of my expenses. I can see all of my subscriptions in one place.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
And if I see something I don't want, Rocket Money can help me cancel it with a few taps. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com slash search. That's rocketmoney.com slash search. rocketmoney.com slash search. Surge Engine is brought to you by AutoTrader. If you're driving right now, look around. See all those cars?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
You can find them on AutoTrader because they have the largest selection of new cars, used cars, electric cars, even flying cars. Okay, no flying cars yet. But as soon as those get invented, they'll be on AutoTrader. Not only can you find that car you just saw, you can find it at a price personalized to you with Kelley Bluebook MyWallet on AutoTrader.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
From credit scores to down payments to interest rates, we all know that car buying requires a lot of math. Enter MyWallet on AutoTrader, a tool that shows you exactly how much you'll pay each month for your car based on your unique info, so you never have to do car math again.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
So whether you're into timeless classics or the latest trends, did someone say solar-powered, eco-friendly, self-driving car? Or whether you just want something practical with no surprise costs, if you see a car you like, find it on AutoTrader. See it, find it, AutoTrader. Search Engine is brought to you by Seed.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Whether you're off to the pool, hiking, or traveling this summer, you're bringing your microbiome with you too. The 38 trillion bacteria that live in and on you, especially your gut, are essential to whole body health. Seed's DS01 Daily Synbiotic benefits your gut, skin, and heart health in just two capsules a day. Your body is an ecosystem, and great whole-body health starts in the gut.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
He and his boyfriend show up exactly on time, bearing a thoughtful gift, and then Chris sneaks out the front door two hours later or half an hour before midnight, whichever comes first. not a person given to unplanned improvised fun. So I was actually surprised to learn he'd been drawn to Berlin, a city that tends to attract my more late-night degenerate friends.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Your gut is a central hub for various pathways through the body, and a healthy gut microbiome means benefits for digestion, skin health, heart health, your immune system, and much more. With clinical trials and breakthrough research published in top scientific journals, Seed's probiotic research and development makes DS01 a product you know you can trust.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Support your gut this summer with Seed's DS01 Daily Symbiotic. Go to seed.com slash search and use code 25search to get 25% off your first month. That's 25% off your first month of Seed's DS01 Daily Symbiotic at seed.com slash search, code 25search. Welcome back to the show. In America, in the circles I run in, people complain a lot about capitalism.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
I don't think they're bothered by the exchange of goods and services. I think it's their shorthand way of saying everything here is just too driven by profit. Even things that start out good can be squeezed to death by our ceaseless desire to bring out every possible dollar.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
In Berlin, a place where, until recently, capitalism and socialism both operated, in Berlin, it feels like something else is going on. The nightlife industry there brings in one and a half billion tourism dollars a year, but they're strange dollars. The crown jewel, Berghain, operates by turning away thousands of paying customers.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
And despite demand, it keeps its ticket prices pretty low, all while existing in a building that is 37,600 square feet in a very hip neighborhood. And not only does this all seem to work, it's worked for a long time. That doesn't happen in nightlife. Clubs don't stick around. Studio 54 was open for less than three years. Berghain is on its 20th.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
And people attribute a lot of that success to Berghain's strict and strange door policy. You can tell the story of that door as a story about culture, about cool, but cool, we know, never explains itself. So let's get inside Berghain from a different direction. I'm going to tell you the story not about DJs and bouncers, but about lawyers and lobbyists.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
About the municipal regulation and policy that allows this club to exist the way it does. A story that begins in 1949. Hi, can you hear me? Hey. Hey. I hear you well. How's it going over there? Well, well, well. Lutz Leitzenring. I'd first heard about him from one of my best friends, Kay Burke, a nightclub founder herself. People in Berlin called Lutz the mayor of the city's nightlife.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
So did Kay explain, like, who I am and what we're up to over here?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Yeah, so I have this podcast called Search Engine where we just try to answer people's questions, no matter how simple or complicated. And we do sort of, like, all manner of stuff. We do, like... really serious stuff, like we just did something about fentanyl and the drug supply in America, but we also do really silly stuff and kind of like everything in between.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
And what level are we here in this conversation?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Like, I think for people in the United States, it's a place you go and you spend $500 on champagne. And like, you know what I mean?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Germans like Lutz call this style of nightclub bottles and models, shorthand for the economic model that drives them. Clubs like these are what most Americans think of when you say nightclub, spots that tend to make their money by enticing rich people to pay for tables and buy bottles of champagne so that they can feel important. The clubs are like little status factories.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
In Berlin, though, that same word, nightclub, describes an entirely different operation fueled by a different economic model. And Litz's job is to protect that status quo. He's nightlife's advocate in the offices of city bureaucrats, the spokesperson for Berlin's club commission. I wanted Lutz to tell me how Berlin's unusual nightlife scene had come to be.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
And that story is the story of two arguments. The first argument takes place in the late 1940s. Argument one is about a very specific rule, curfew. In Berlin today, there is no curfew. Bars and clubs stay open as long as they want. And can you tell me the story of how Berlin came to be a city with no curfew? What is the origin story of that decision?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Heinz Zellermeyer. There was no club commission back then. Heinz was instead the deputy director of the Guild of Berlin Hoteliers. In photos, Heinz has an enormous smile and combed-back hair. He looks like someone who'd held forth at a restaurant or two. Heinz did not like the curfew. He particularly did not like that his side of the city had an earlier curfew.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
The person to complain to was General Howley of the U.S. Army, the Americans' West Berlin commandant. A meeting was set, and Heinz, supposedly, came prepared.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
It was a well-reasoned argument. The Allies did not want drunk Westerners crossing East in search of a later last call. And worse, there'd been an emerging Cold War of curfews, with each side, the East and the West, repeatedly extending an hour past each other to try to capture all the income from drunk Berliners. Eliminating curfew would solve the security issue and win the night war.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Berlin, one of the rare cities that has no curfew at all. In 1949, when the city permanently deleted its curfew, obviously techno music did not exist. Raving was something people did in insane asylums. If anyone was listening to music in a club late at night, it was probably jazz. But this decision set Berlin on a path Nightlife is funded more than anything else via the sale of alcohol.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
A city without a curfew can have a legal party that runs through the night, even that runs multiple nights. Half a century-ish later, techno will hit Berlin. People will begin to throw raves in illegal spots without permits. This will happen in a lot of cities at the same time, Detroit, New York, London.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
But what makes Berlin different from those places is that here, many of those raves can actually become legitimate businesses, can find permanent homes and clubs. General Howley's 1949 agreement is the first precondition for klubnacht at Berghain. It sets the stage for a party that can last for three days.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
But years later, as the scene starts to mature, a second argument takes place, an argument which almost kills these nightclubs. Argument two is about taxes. In the early 2000s, Berghain was a rising young club alongside already established spots like Tresor and the Kit Kat Club. And Berlin's tax authority started to take a closer look at these places. How much money were they bringing in?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Shouldn't the city be getting a bigger cut? Government tax agents walk into Berghain, presumably without needing permission from Sven. They're there documenting everything they see, asking a question. From a tax perspective, what is happening in these rooms?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
In Germany, if you pay money for a ticket and enter a venue where music is played, according to the taxman, you may be having one of three different experiences. You might be experiencing high culture, like opera, in which case the city will barely tax the ticket. You might be at a concert, like the Rolling Stones, in which case the city will moderately tax the ticket.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Or you might be experiencing entertainment. This happens in casinos, in porn theaters. In that case, the city will take a big tax bite, almost 20%. Before the tax officials began to take a closer look at the club scene, these venues had been mostly taxed as concert venues. But now, in 2008, the city started to ask pointed questions. Was a DJ really a musician?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Was a techno show really like a concert?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Berghain was the club that actually took this case all the way to the high courts. Berghain I, the Berghain in the government's books, was cemented as a concert venue, a place where people went because they loved techno music. Weirdly, this is one part of the answer to Chris and Dan's questions. What was the bouncer, Sven, scanning for at the door?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
He needed to ensure they were true techno heads, not people there simply for entertainment. That consideration, a funny side effect of the argument the club had had to make in court years ago. It may have been part of what filtered them out. Chris and Dan, not true techno heads.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Berghain's victory in court meant that any German nightclub that could prove it was meeting Berghain's cultural standards could be taxed like Berghain. Lower taxes meant they could keep their overhead low. The lower the overhead, the less pressure to make money.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Berghain. At the time of our conversation, rumors about Berghain had certainly reached me 4,000 miles away in Brooklyn. I'd heard the basics. A decommissioned power plant turned into a multi-story nightclub. People talked about this place as a kind of grimy heaven. And like traditional heaven, grimy heaven was also supposedly very hard to get into.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
The less pressure to make money, the more they could continue to keep their nightclubs dedicated to preserving Berlin's strange counterculture. Lutz told me about another one of these battles.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
It's so interesting, though. It's like you get the government to classify clubs differently. That changes where clubs can appropriately be in the city. Then if the clubs can be in places where they otherwise wouldn't have been allowed... they can have a different profit incentive. They don't have to just make as much money as possible.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
And you end up with a different culture because of just a change to how the government classified something. That's really interesting. Exactly. We're going to come back to this strange court case and its consequences in the second part of this story. But before I left Lutz, I wanted to ask him specifically about Chris and Dan.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
And who's behind these scammy text messages we've all been getting? Okay, this week's show, after some ads. Search Engine is brought to you by Rowbody. Rowbody. If you've heard of Ozempic or Wegovy, you've probably heard three things. They're effective, but they're expensive, and they're hard to get. That's where Roe comes in.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
What was it about them, the way they looked, the way they dressed, that had signaled they didn't belong at Berghain? Lutz does not represent Berghain, but as spokesperson for the club commission and as a Berghain regular, I thought he might be able to help.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Can I show you a couple of photographs and you tell me if the person seems like... I'm not a selector, so I can only give you my personal opinion. Yeah, is it okay to ask you your opinion on it?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Okay, so this is the person he went with.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Because they don't seem like techno guys to you. They seem like gay guys who are going out clubbing.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
For very good reason, we do not celebrate the idea that you should judge people based on how they look on the outside. Those judgments often lead us astray. And yet, Lutz, from a photo, could tell that Chris and Dan were after respectful, healthy, wholesome partying, not the sort of darkness that occurs in Berghain's techno dungeons. They didn't belong there.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
They belonged, he suspected, at another place called Schwurz, I wondered what Chris and Dan would make of that judgment. So later, I asked. Chris told me, Schwitz? They loved Schwitz. It was the club they'd ended up at after being rejected from Berghain. Berlin, this magical city, had somehow sent them to the place where they actually belonged.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
It operated according to its own particular value system. Berghain selectively welcomed freaks, rejects, the different. This was the place where my friends had wanted to go.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Lutz was not a selector, but he did seem to have a selector's eye.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
If I were having a party where it was really important that someone danced in the middle of the dance floor for eight hours, he would perhaps not make the cut for that party.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
A club should bring together people of similar interests. Absolutely. But what if you're someone who doesn't belong but still wants to just go check it out? Is there a way to sneak in? Is there some other way into Berghain that is not going through the bouncer? Lutz did have advice about this.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Lutz said the process he's describing, this is the real way into Klubnacht. Make yourself a part of the scene. That line outside Berghain, he said, that's for people who haven't been able to or who haven't known to try. While Lutz was saying this to me, I was nodding yes furiously, my noggin like a broken bobblehead. Of course it all made sense.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
And as a person obsessed with belonging and exclusion, I was lapping it all up. We finished our conversation. It's really, it's a pleasure to just get to ask you these questions. Thank you for doing this. You're welcome. We hung up and then not long after, this spell of Lutz's idea dissipated. What were we talking about?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
If you wanted to visit the most exclusive nightclub in the world, go to Germany and start methodically befriending Germans in the city's electronic music scene? Okay. Normally, that would have been the end of things. And perhaps it should have been the end of things. But not long after this, a friend of mine, an American, asked me a question.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
They were celebrating a big milestone in their life, and they wanted to do it in Germany. In Berlin, actually. They wanted to spend some time there, perhaps even try to see some of the city's famous nightlife. Did that sound like fun? Could I make some time away from work? Yes, it did. No, I couldn't. I bought myself a plane ticket.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
The myth, hard as it was to believe, was that the door to Berghain, like Excalibur's sword, would be offered only to someone who truly understood technoculture, who understood what the place meant. Could something like that really be true? Next week on Search Engine, the last episode of our season, Techno. Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Shruthi Pinamaneni, and is produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Fact-checking this week by Claire Hyman. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Armin Bizarrian. Armin also created the techno remix of our theme. Armin Bizarrian, just an extremely talented man.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
If you have a moment and would like to support our show, please consider becoming a paid subscriber at searchengine.show. You get all sorts of rewards, including bonus episodes, or you just recommend the show to a friend. Either would be a huge help. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss Berman and Leah Reese Dennis.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Perrello, and John Schmidt, and to the team at Odyssey, J.D. Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchison, Matt Casey, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schaaf. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at UTA. Follow and listen to Search Engine for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
I should say, according to Elon Musk, Elon Musk was not rejected from Berghain. In 2022, amidst a bunch of internet chatter about how he'd not gotten in, he posted on Twitter that it was he who'd rejected the club. He said he'd refused to enter. Okay. Chris and Dan. Their recent attempt was not their first try. They'd also gone in 2017. Back then, they'd done the same thing.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Gone to Berlin, headed to Berghain, waited in the line, and ultimately been told, nine. This time around, they were older, they were wiser, and they had at least one new advantage. This thriving corner of the internet devoted to Berghain door policy reconnaissance.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Yeah, yeah, okay, but that's not adequate.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
So now, five years later, when Chris and Dan arrived once again in Berlin, they knew they would have to take things more seriously.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
the outfits they decide on. For Dan, a black tank top and short shorts, length somewhere between 80s camp counselor and 90s basketball player, black shoes and tube socks. For Chris, black skinny jeans, no shirt, and this black vest that kind of looked like a tuxedo vest. With their outfits ready and mindset prepared, they head to the Berghain line for their Saturday attempt.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Are you talking? A little bit. From the back of the line, they could see the club, the former power plant, looming over the horizon. It was dark, except for flashes of light and silhouettes through the top windows. Very faintly, it emitted the throb of bass. As they stood there, waiting, people would walk past them, people who'd already been rejected, glumly leaving.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Through Roe, you can access prescription compounded GLP-1s, the same weight loss ingredient as brand name GLP-1s, at a fraction of the cost. Roe has compounded GLP-1s in stock now. You can get it in one to four days if you qualify. Roe members have support through the process. If eligible for medication, patients have access to their provider on demand for any questions.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Chris said the sight of these people would actually inspire hope in him.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Way, way, way up ahead, at the front of the line, stood the bouncers. A few of these bouncers specially deputized to decide who got into the club. Those are called selectors. Those were the people sending rejects back out into the night. So how soon can they see you?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Yeah. They seem to be. They seem to be. After a couple hours of anxious waiting, Chris and Dan found themselves close to the mouth of Berghain.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
You can see if you qualify from the comfort of your home. That means no scheduling doctor's appointment, no commute to the doctor's office, and no waiting rooms. If prescribed, your medication ships in one to four days. Go to ro.co slash search engine. Memberships start at just $99 for your first month. Medication costs are separate. That's ro.co slash search engine.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
And they just point towards the street.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Chris and Dan did not get the gentle wave inviting them anywhere else in Berlin. Instead, they got a verbal rejection. The bouncer told them, not tonight. And so the next day, Sunday, they tried again. They had a new plan. To go during the day.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
On this attempt, Chris and Dan stood in line next to each other for hours and did not talk.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
If it seems silly to you that two adult men spent so much time and energy trying to get into a nightclub, if it seems sillier that this reporter would then spend a year of his life thinking about this place that those men never got to see the inside of, I should tell you how I feel about nightlife, which is maybe not what you would expect.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Go to ro.co slash safety for black box warning and full safety information. Compounded medication is not required to and does not receive FDA review or approval. Prescription only. I'm not supposed to pick favorite questions. I claim to love all questions equally. But about a year ago, I got a question from two friends of mine.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
I find nightclubs to be deeply meaningful places, borderline holy, I know that sounds a little weird, but in New York, where I live, there's a handful of these quasi-underground little dance spots, smoke machine shrouded dance floors, usually free to get in, where you can just lose yourself for hours dancing in a throng of strangers.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
It's all very corny to talk about, especially on a podcast, but as a person who feels like a full-time resident of my own mind, these are the only places where I escape that. Where, even sober, I can just feel like a body, not a brain, or not a body, just a part of a mass of them.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
I suspect there might be a human need to gather in a room and surrender to something, and for me, what I discovered pretty late in life is that the room should be sweaty and packed, and the surrender should be to music. Berghain. Whatever the hype, the promise was that it was the best of these rooms built by humans. An actual wonder of the world, not some relic.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Search Engine is sponsored by eBay Motors. eBay Motors is here for the ride with the parts you need at the prices you want. And with eBay Guaranteed Fit, they're guaranteed to fit your ride the first time, every time, or your money back. Keep your ride or die alive at ebaymotors.com. Eligible items only. Exclusions apply.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Like when I'm listening to NPR and they start talking about how the Fed might hike interest rates or something, something cool down or something, something soft landing, the words themselves hit my brain and my brain starts to shake and melt like jello in a microwave. Inflation talk makes me feel like I missed a class in school. And honestly, it's possible I did.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Got it. But you feel that that story is wrong or incomplete?
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
After a short break, a different explanation for what happened to America in the 1970s. An explanation which, if it's correct, would suggest that the way we talk about and try to solve inflation in this country today is wrong. That's after some ads for reasonably priced goods. One of our sponsors this week is eBay Motors. Hey, everyone.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
We're hitting pause for a quick break to talk about something every car enthusiast will love, eBay Motors. If you're into cars, whether you're working on a classic project or just keeping your daily driver in top shape, eBay Motors is the place to be. Let's face it, finding the right parts for your ride can be a real hassle.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
You might spend hours searching through endless catalogs or dealing with unreliable parts. That's why eBay Motors is a total game changer. They've got a massive inventory, so you can find exactly what you need without all the headaches. Picture this. You're looking for a brake kit to improve your vehicle's stopping power.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Or maybe you want to upgrade to some sleek LED headlights for better visibility. Or how about a roof rack to haul your gear on that epic road trip? eBay Motors has it all. Brake kits, LED headlights, roof racks, bumpers, and so much more. Their selection is truly extensive, covering parts and accessories for every make and model out there. But here's where it gets even better.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
eBay Motors offers something called eBay Guaranteed Fit. That means you can shop with complete confidence. When you order a part, you can be sure it will fit your ride the first time, every time. No more guessing games, no more endless returns. If it doesn't fit, you get your money back. No hassle. That's a guarantee you can count on. And let's not forget about pricing.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
With eBay Motors, you're not just getting top quality parts, you're also getting great deals. With prices like these, you're burning rubber, not cash. It's a win-win situation. So why wait? Make sure your ride or die stays in prime condition and get the parts and accessories you need at eBay Motors.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Just head over to ebaymotors.com to explore their massive inventory and find everything you need to keep your vehicle running smoothly. Remember, eligible items only and exclusions apply. Here's the scoop. eBay Motors has over 122 million parts available, so you're sure to find exactly what you need.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
I missed tons of classes in school. It's just, this is the one that is now bothering me. When polled, American voters this year reliably reported that the single most important issue determining their vote is inflation. To be fair, it gets lumped in with the economy and prices, but inflation. Not immigration, which often comes in second. Not climate change, which I've seen down at number 10.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
From brake kits and LED headlights to roof racks and bumpers, whatever your vehicle needs, eBay Motors has it. Plus, with eBay Guaranteed Fit, you can shop with confidence, knowing the part will fit your ride the first time, every time. If it doesn't, you get your money back. No hassle. All right, that's it for this break. Now, let's get back to the show.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Search Engine is brought to you by Rosetta Stone. There's a lot of reasons to learn a new language. One of my favorites, cognitive benefits, improved brain function. My brain has not been very good. Studies have shown that learning a new language can improve memory, problem solving skills, and even delay the onset of dementia. It might be too late for me, but it's not too late for you.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app. It truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. Rosetta Stone has been a trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered. Lifetime membership has all 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. Don't put off learning that language.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
There's no better time than right now to get started. Search Engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine. That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. Welcome back to the show.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
The thing about the economy that all of us understand, all of us, is that it is breakingly complicated, the product of more human decisions and happenstance than we can ever totally grasp. But we need to comprehend it, so we simplify a complex thing into a story, a story that eliminates the parts that we hope we can safely ignore. But the story you pick has consequences.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
If you tell the wrong story or an incomplete story about why the economy failed in the 1970s, your future solutions for other similarly broken economies might be wrong. When Mark and his co-author went back to try to understand why the economy in the 1970s had, and this is an economic term, shit the bed, they found that the causes were more complicated than the classic story of inflation.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
The idea, again, had been that prices had all gone up because the government was buying a lot of stuff because of the war, and prices had gone up because everyone who wanted a job had had one since so many able-bodied men were overseas. But Mark says his research has led him to believe that the reality was more complicated.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Except it didn't work that way. Remember, increasing the labor supply, in theory, should have lowered inflation. Worker power goes down, paychecks stop going up, and so companies can stop raising prices. But they didn't. So what was going on here?
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
One theory is that these women and minorities, it feels weird to keep saying that phrase, but here we are, that these women and minorities influenced the economy in a different way. Maybe they were using their newfound wages to make a lot of purchases that they otherwise wouldn't have.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
So the prices start to go up because you have more buyers. That's exactly right. So that was one variable that the conventional story may have left out. Prices could have gone up in part because there were now more consumers around to buy things. And here's another. In the 1970s, lots of America's access to very basic goods had been disrupted, essentially through a series of unfortunate events.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Inflation. By which I think they mostly mean that the things we all have to regularly buy have gotten more expensive. I'm not a complete idiot, and also I'm somewhat cheap, so I do notice when prices go up. I understand that inflation partly explains why I paid over $4 a gallon for gas in Nevada last month. or why I now can't walk out of a fast food restaurant without breaking a 20.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Oh, so literally just a shortage of supplies, but rapidly. Shortage of supply. That's all it means. This is a massive supply shock. Americans had noticed that fuel prices had gone up. We know that they were sometimes punching each other at gas stations about it. But what they may have missed is how rising gas prices raised all sorts of other prices. The trucks that deliver goods need gas.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Factories need energy to produce really anything. If energy prices rise, you will notice it at the gas station, but it'll be reflected in prices all throughout the economy. And there were sudden shortages of other industrial inputs throughout the 1970s.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Mark is saying that for people in the 1970s, prices rose, then there was a supply shock, and prices rose again. And nobody got a chance to calm down because as soon as they did, slam, some other good had just become scarce. Mark says with supply shocks, you typically just wait for the market to correct itself.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Eventually, companies figure out how to get goods to the consumers who want them, and prices come back down. We know that it is much easier to buy an N95 mask today than it was in March of 2020. When I was talking to Mark, I couldn't tell how much of this alternate explanation of the 1970s was his own versus something other economists believe.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
But afterwards, we ran this theory by an economic historian who pointed to a growing consensus that our old popular understanding of 1970s was, if not wrong, at least incomplete. And for the economists who view it this way, the story of Paul Volcker's big heroic intervention lands differently.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
So your theory of the 1970s is that, well, the understanding has been that the fix was Volcker stepping in, raising interest rates. By raising interest rates, he killed that spiral between... workers asking for more money so that they could keep up with the cost of living, the cost of living going up, like that spiral, he cut.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
The upside of that, if you believe in it, it lowers prices for everybody. The downside is that a lot of people lose their jobs, you go into a recession.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
absolutely the recession is the price to be paid for the inflationary party if you want to put it that way and your belief is that that violent slamming on the brakes that he did we didn't need to do it because if what was really happening in the 1970s was a series of supply shocks you think those supply shocks had kind of worked their way through the system pretty much someone's like getting over the cold anyway and then you give them like uh chemo that's a pretty good analogy actually
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
I just don't really get the underlying mechanics of it. There's a difference between being able to mumble an explanation and actually understanding something, and I live in that difference. I felt it pretty acutely, actually, watching the presidential debate. The very first question spoke to the issue that this election will likely come down to.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
And what happened in the 1970s, it's not a strictly academic question. It matters today because what you think happened then determines what you think should happen now. We are, hopefully, coming out of what has been a three-year period of relatively high inflation. The conventional wisdom for how we got this recent inflation surge goes back to the pandemic.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
If you're a Democrat, you probably think the pandemic caused inflation. If you're a Republican, you probably believe Biden's response to the pandemic caused inflation, or at least made it worse. But whatever your politics, unless you are very, very, very bad at paying attention to how you spend your money, you've noticed the prices have gone up.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
At restaurants, at the grocery store, at the gas pump. I was in Utah a few months ago and noticed on the pump itself, somebody had put a sticker of Kamala Harris pointing to the gas price sticker. The quote coming out of her mouth, we did that, which honestly I thought was pretty clever. Anyway, many people blame government spending for inflation.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
But what we know from talking about the 1970s with Mark is that the economy is very complicated. And that at any moment where inflation spikes, there could be a few different things happening. And economists and politicians and voters have to make a diagnosis. So let's begin with the part that everyone agrees on. March 2020, the country went into lockdown.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Not long after, the first of three rounds of stimulus checks were sent out.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
And in late 2021, everyone notices that the prices of goods are soaring uncomfortably.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
There's basically four stories that might explain it. And you, yes, you, have to decide how much to value each one. Story number one of our recent inflation, too much money.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
I'll say, I do remember seeing the stimulus checks go out and having this thought, right? Isn't this going to cause inflation? And a lot of people think it did.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
That's story number one. The government sent lots of people stimulus checks. Those people used the checks to buy goods. And so the price of goods went up. You can believe it. You cannot believe it. But that's story number one. Story number two, too much employment. This surprised me at first because I remember that unemployment rose during the pandemic.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
But within a couple years, the unemployment rate actually plummeted back down to the lowest it had been in over half a century. And remember, we know that if unemployment is low enough and workers can all negotiate raises, eventually companies might start raising their prices to pay for those raises.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
In this version of the story, all the compassionate stuff the government did to protect workers, the stimulus checks, loans to businesses to juice the economy and keep people employed, maybe the government overdid it.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
But so wait, let me say it back to you. Story number one is government spends too much money that drives prices up or gives out too much money. So like we drive the prices up.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Story number two is the labor market actually gets in a way like too good. Yeah. And people are making too much money and they have an expectation that they'll continue to make money.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
So it's like the conversation that like when I've been in unrenumerative jobs. And I've had conversations with my employer where I'm like, hey, the cost of living, like you have to at least give me a raise for the cost of living.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
It's like the theory would go that if too many employees win those conversations and their buying power goes up, the cost of living does go up, but it goes up more than anyone wants and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy across the system.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
This is story three. That companies weren't just raising prices because workers were asking for more money, but that some companies, particularly companies with more monopoly power, saw prices going up and realized, ooh la la, this would be a great time to use the economy as camouflage. to jack our prices up in a moment where maybe no one will know to blame us.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
And story number three, I've heard talked about this year. It's been referred to as greedflation.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Right. Remember, supply shocks, sudden shortages of goods, also cause prices to go up. And Mark's point is that there were other supply shocks during this period besides those caused by COVID. In 2022, in Europe, Russian gas pipelines were blowing up, causing a huge spike in energy costs, which had consequences throughout the global economy.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Of the four stories, this final one is the one Mark finds most persuasive. But the economy is complicated, and the truth is probably that each of these variables had some effect.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
So story number one, too much money. Story number two, too much employment. Story number three, greedflation, or if you prefer, seller's inflation. Story number four, supply shocks. Here's a question I hadn't known to ask at the outset of this conversation. How is it possible that inflation is very complicated, but also everyone else besides me seems to confidently understand it so well?
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Harris quickly segued from talking about her background to talking about her plans to make housing more affordable.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
The answer, I now believe, is that inflation is complicated because it's a story that we lay over a very chaotic weather pattern. And people are confident about what's going on because the story you pick probably aligns with your political worldview.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Mark, I suspect, is more to the left, although he says he comes to his version of the story mainly just because he's a person suspicious of conventional narratives. Our cultural obsession with the Fed and its interest rates, it annoys him because he believes that's just a very reductive way to conceive of inflation's causes and solutions.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Like right now, Mark points out that if the Fed raised interest rates, it would not help with the supply shortage that the people I know talk about most often.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
It was actually Trump in his answer who brought up inflation.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Right. And saying, yeah, it's $45 for a beef rib, but... But don't worry, it won't be $50.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Right. After a short break, we will return to that presidential debate, but with a much better understanding of inflation. And we will try to decode what it was the candidates were both saying. Search Engine is brought to you by Fresh Direct. I really like FreshDirect.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
When I go to the grocery store, for some reason, my brain goes into screensaver mode, and it takes me forever, and I get lost, and I come back with half of the things I actually need. So I end up saving hours a week just using FreshDirect. FreshDirect is farm to kitchen, food sourced directly from farmers, fishermen, and ranchers, and delivered straight to your door.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Because of this, I'm paying for the quality of food, rather than just paying someone to go to a store for me. FreshDirect says they are seven days fresher than the grocery store. And honestly, you can tell the difference. The convenience is unbeatable. You can grocery shop from your office or your couch whenever you want. The most recent thing I ordered from FreshDirect was a fennel bulb.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
I mean, I had other stuff too, but the fennel was really good. For over 20 years, Fresh Direct has been delivering the freshest fruits, vegetables, and meats to the tri-state area. Don't take my word for it. Try to believe it with $50 off your first order. Go to freshdirect.com and use code SEARCHENGINE. That's freshdirect.com, code SEARCHENGINE, for new customers to save $50 on their first order.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Terms and restrictions apply. See site for details. Surge Engine is sponsored by Viore. Viore is a new perspective on performance apparel. It's perfect if you're sick and tired of traditional old workout gear. Everything is designed to work out in, but it doesn't feel or look like it. It's extremely comfortable. You'll want to wear it all the time.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
I promise you it is more comfortable than whatever you're wearing right now. The product is incredibly versatile. It can be used for just about any activity, running, training, swimming, yoga, but it's also great for my favorite form of exercise, which is lounging on a sofa. Also, Viore is 100% offsetting their carbon footprint.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
They're using better sustainable materials for their products to empower your best active life. Viore is an investment in your happiness. For our listeners, Viore is offering 20% off your first purchase. Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at viore.com slash pjsearch. That's Viore, V-U-O-R-I dot com slash pjsearch.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Just to say, inflation is nowhere near the worst it's been in our nation's history. But it has been bad. Trump's proposed solution for inflation is tariffs.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but you'll also enjoy free shipping on any US orders over 75 bucks and free returns. Go to viore.com slash pjsearch and discover the versatility of Viore clothing. Surge Engine is brought to you by ShipStation. These days, it feels like every device we use is getting smarter and more connected.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
We have smartwatches, we have Wi-Fi enabled LED light bulbs. The world keeps getting smarter. Your e-commerce business should too. Whether you're looking for incredible efficiency or your business has outgrown your old shipping solutions, ShipStation helps you take the next step. ShipStation's features are a game changer for your business.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
You can easily automate shipping tasks and manage orders from one simple dashboard. All your automations will allow smooth printing shipping labels at the click of a button. You'll save thousands on shipping with industry-leading carrier discounts. Lead your business into the future with technology built to save you from extra costs and headaches.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Lead your e-commerce business into a smarter future with the shipping software that delivers. Switch to ShipStation today. Go to ShipStation.com and use code SEARCH to sign up for your free 60-day trial. That's ShipStation.com code SEARCH. I'm talking to you Wednesday, September 11th. I watched the presidential debate last night. I was wondering why you look so tired and distraught.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
I always look like this. Harris talked about, when they asked her about inflation, they asked her about the economy, she talked about housing, which watching, to me, felt like a non sequitur. Hearing you talk about this, I actually understand better the argument she's implicitly making, which is that the cost of housing is hugely important to people's price experience in American life.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
And so she's saying, I would treat housing as a supply shock issue and fix it that way.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
And then the alternate argument that was being made, I saw Trump saying two different things. One thing he was saying was, I'm going to fix immigration. And I guess the argument there would be, if there's less competition for American jobs, your wages will go up and you'll be able to afford prices. And then the other thing he was saying was, He was going to institute tariffs.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
What did any of this have to do with the price of gas in Nevada? The day after the debate, feeling completely at sea, I did what you do when you profoundly lose your way in life. I called a Scottish-American economist. Mark, are you jamming?
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
His argument, I believe, is that the same way corporations sometimes price gouge consumers, he thinks that other countries are price gouging Americans and that he can intervene. Am I understanding the argument correctly?
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
I'm interrupting here to say, to be scrupulously fair to Donald Trump, he's not said he wants to throw out every migrant in America. What he has vowed to do is to carry out, quote, the largest deportation in history. His idea being that if you removed millions of undocumented workers from America, wages would go up for the workers who are left. That's the theory.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Wait, let me say it back to you just to make sure I got it. Sorry, I usually don't do this, but I find the economy very confusing. So the reason you're skeptical of part one is if every immigrant undocumented and many documented get kicked out of the country, yes, there's a ton of new jobs.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
But a lot of those jobs might not be jobs that the existing documented American citizens who Trump likes and allows to stay want. And so in a world where, for instance, there aren't agricultural workers to pick avocados in California, prices will actually go up.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Even though there's more jobs, prices will go up because avocados become more expensive because you have to pay people more to pick the avocados. And it's not as if there's workers and consumer. Every worker is a consumer. Every consumer is a worker. That's all correct, yeah?
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
So the problem with the tariff is that you end up raising prices, which raises inflation. The idea that you fight inflation with tariffs is like saying you fight fire with gasoline or matches.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
What are you playing? It sounds a little like Oasis.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Wait, and what are cotton buds?
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
It takes five years to open an American Q-tip factory?
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Mark's point isn't that we should never have tariffs or that tariffs can't help buy America time to rebuild parts of our economy. It's that the timing matters. Tariffs will likely spike inflation short term, and it takes a longer time to rebuild industry than most people realize.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
I was watching that debate trying to put myself in the shoes of somebody who found Trump's arguments about the economy very persuasive, and I was trying to do the mental exercise of finding them persuasive. And wouldn't there be somebody listening to this conversation who would say, like,
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Yes, everything you're saying is true, but the fact that America can't make things or the fact that everything's made in China or the fact that people aren't being trained is a problem. And we should just, even if we're not going to brute force it overnight, we should shift our economy to one that does manufacture and we should go back to the way things were.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Mark Blythe is a political economist, a professor at Brown University. He's writing a book about inflation. When we spoke last week, I was at Search Engine Studios. Mark was in his home studio, surrounded by many guitars. When my colleague, Garrett Graham, was setting up this interview, he asked you for 90 minutes of your time.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
The question Mark is kicking around, I feel personally very unresolved on. What I do know is that when politicians talk about bringing jobs and industry back to America, that sounds very good to me. I am capable of understanding both that we benefit tremendously from a global economy and that there are serious problems with it.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Problems that are much more likely to affect American workers closer to the bottom of the economic ladder. You could spend a year, a decade, a lifetime on just the question of how do you restore American jobs and manufacturing without going nuts and damaging the economy? I don't know the answer.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
But when smart people decide that it's too late to fix this or that it can't be done, I suspect they're wrong. And that by abandoning the question, they cede the floor to people with worse ideas. Anyway, this feels unusually so boxy for me, so let me step off of it.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Moving away from our current presidential moment, I do feel like I have a better understanding of inflation than I did 40 minutes ago. I just had one more question for Mark about how to think about inflation going forward. So, okay. So my understanding now, which I did not have when I watched this conversation and which I deeply appreciate...
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
First of all, inflation is when all the prices go up at the same time. The story of the 1970s is that the government's big tool for fighting inflation is to raise the price of borrowing, which lowers prices at the cost oftentimes of people's jobs. You hit the brakes, you cause a recession, but you fix it.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Your belief is that actually the problem are supply shocks generally, which work through the system, and we've learned the wrong lesson. We just successfully, most people agree, evaded inflation. bad inflation. Yeah. If you were in charge next time inflation pops up, what would you do?
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
You insisted on 45 minutes because you said inflation was too boring to talk about for longer than that. That's pretty true.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
And they know that. Mark says, to the central bankers' credit, they didn't push interest rates up so aggressively this time around. They seemed to understand that to do so would cause a lot of Americans unnecessary economic pain. And just two days ago, the Fed did something that caused a national sigh of relief.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Central bankers announced they'd actually cut their interest rate by half a point, which I now know means... The government thinks that our inflationary moment is ending, that there is no longer a national concern that all of the prices are going up together too fast. And so the government does not need to induce unemployment to calm the economy down.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Thank you to Mark Blyth for helping us understand all this. His forthcoming book out this spring is called Inflation, A Guide for Users and Losers. His co-author, Niccolo Fraccaroli. Mark is a professor at Brown University, where he directs the William R. Rhodes Center for International Economics and Finance at the Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs. Mark, thank you.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Your ability to talk about this is very impressive.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Thanks also this week to Brendan Greeley and to Dr. Rebecca Spang. And apologies to Noel and Liam Gallagher. Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Shruti Panamaneni, and is produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Fact-checking this week by Holly Patton. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Armin Bizarrian.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Well, that was what I wanted to ask you. Like, how did you decide to write a book about something that you also describe as boring?
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
We have not sent the Search Engine volunteer army on a mission in a while. If you have time, please consider reviewing us on Apple Podcasts. Also, last time I asked people to do this, we got some fairly middling reviews. I'm not trying to manipulate the system, but please consider leaving a positive review.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
If you have a negative review, please send it to us on a postcard with a self-addressed stamped envelope so we can rebut it in writing. Nothing is our fault. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Reese-Dennis. Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Perrello, and John Schmidt, and to the team at Odyssey, J.D.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Kate Rose, Matt Casey, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schaaf. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at UTA. If you would like to support our show and get access to our incognito mode feed with no ads, no reruns, and some bonus episodes, head to searchengine.show.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
You can also submit a question for us there, whether or not you're a paid subscriber. Follow and listen to Search Engine for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. We will see you in two weeks.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
The story of the 1970s, oh dear, we've already begun to get ahead of ourselves. We're not getting into that right now. We are going to start with the basic basics. I asked Mark to just give me a professor's definition of inflation.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Okay, so let me say it back to you to make sure I have it. It's inflation when the prices of everything are going up. Done. If one thing is getting more expensive that's not inflation, don't use the word. You're confused. You're right. And then secondly, when we say inflation is going down, it doesn't mean that anything's going to get cheaper.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
It just means that things are going to get expensive more slowly.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
College dropout, actually. Okay. So we now have a working definition of inflation. Let's take it for a ride. So what actually causes inflation? In theory, inflation can strike at any time. There's lots of reasons why prices might suddenly all go up together. But if you look back in human history, inflation actually used to be much more rare.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
The idea that inflation is something we talk a lot about, worry a lot about, make podcasts trying to understand, that is a fairly modern idea. And it exists partly because of a particular feature of modern governments.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Okay. So let's get to the 1970s. Like what, tell me before you demythologize it, like what is the received conventional, like I'm a freshman in college. What did they tell me about the 1970s?
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
The story Mark is telling, economists refer to it as the Great Inflation. It goes like this. In the years before the Vietnam War, the U.S. government had been spending more money than usual. President Johnson in 1964 had announced new social programs like Medicare, along with greater investments in urban renewal.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Then, in 1965, the U.S. enters the Vietnam War, which pushes government spending up even further. We have to feed the soldiers. We need gas for the tanks.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
And so just to make sure I'm following carefully, it's like the first two things that happen. One is government spending a lot of money. That's going to drive prices up because like... Because they're competing for the stuff that you're going to buy as well.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Right. The government needs drywall. The government needs milk. And then also because there's a draft... People are being sent to war, which means that everybody who is left who wants a job has a job.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
In theory, this economy sounds kind of great. Companies so desperate to hire that you can quit your job at lunch and find a new one in time for your afternoon cubicle nap. But the reason this can be bad is because if the companies are super desperate, desperate enough to pay workers more than they can afford, then to make that money back, they'll have to raise prices.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Welcome to Search Engine. I'm PJ Vogt. No question too big. No question too small. I am typically pretty comfortable with embarrassing public disclosures, but I have been struggling with this one. I genuinely do not understand inflation. I'm not joking about either part of this. I both don't understand inflation and I find my confusion about it somewhat embarrassing.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
So to recap, you're worried because everything's getting more expensive, so you ask for a raise. Your boss gives it to you because unemployment is super low and they're worried you're going to quit. Great. Except then you go to the grocery store and you realize while you were having that conversation, milk went up to lake. 80 bucks a gallon. So you ask for another raise.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
But at the same time, so does the guy at the grocery store and the people working at the dairy farm. So now milk is 100 bucks a gallon and you need another raise. And pretty soon you could be making 100 bucks an hour, but it'll feel like you're making 10.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
So in America, in the 1970s, prices for everything were rising inexorably. I'm not going to quote these prices to you. They won't sound impressive since obviously everything is much more expensive today in 2024.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
But the way to picture it, imagine that your weekly grocery bill and your weekly gas bill were 10% higher next year and the year after, and that things more or less proceeded that way for over a decade.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Because the U.S. had not ever experienced anything this bad for this long, it was unclear how to solve the problem. People panicked. People panicked even more when gas in particular got unaffordable.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
In 1979, fistfights broke out at gas stations. The idea of not being able to reliably fill your car really drove home for people this profound sense that things had gone awfully wrong here.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
The central bankers. These were the people who, in the classic telling of the story, solved the American inflation crisis. The heroic central banker who figured out how to cool everything down was a man named Paul Volcker, a cigar-loving, thick spectacle-wearing patrician man from Cape May, New Jersey.
Search Engine
Is everyone pretending to understand inflation (or just me)?
Mourning in America was this political ad cut by Ronald Reagan, a very famous one, where he took credit for finally ending the inflation crisis. A credit-taking historians might disagree with, but it's a topic for another podcast. Anyway, this is the kind of political ad you get to put out if you preside over the end of an inflationary crisis.
Search Engine
Genesis
Hi, I'm PJ Vogt. This is the second of our Crypto Island favorites that we're sharing with you. In this episode, which takes place in April 2022, we were fascinated by the idea of Bitcoin's white paper, the notion that a currency would have a founding document laying out how it should work, written by a pseudonymous author.
Search Engine
Genesis
Teal's on stage in a white polo shirt, brown hair, ruddy cheeks. He's holding up what looks to me like a couple hundred dollar bills. Hard to see from my seat. But he's using that paper money as a prop for his talk.
Search Engine
Genesis
At this point, Peter Thiel wants to do something that I think he and this room would consider kind of punk rock, like their version of smashing a guitar. Throw the money into the crowd.
Search Engine
Genesis
In the end, he settles for folding it up and tossing it underhand like a rookie high school softball pitcher.
Search Engine
Genesis
And so... From there, he continues to serve up more red meat. He shows a slide of Bitcoin versus its biggest competitor, Ethereum.
Search Engine
Genesis
Bitcoin represented by a picture of a burly dude in a MAGA hat, machine gun pointed at the camera. Ethereum, just a picture of Ethereum's inventor, Vitalik Buterin. Very skinny fellow who often dresses like he's wearing his favorite pair of pajamas to a sober rave. The crowd eats this up.
Search Engine
Genesis
Thiel moves briskly through his argument that basically, while Ethereum is fairly valued, Bitcoin in the future could have parity with the equities market, meaning the price could rise 100x. This, here, is the truest rallying cry for the Bitcoiners. Obviously, Thiel is a Republican, but with this, he is uniting a room filled with all sorts of political beliefs.
Search Engine
Genesis
All these people rooting for this one future, rooting that the number will go up. And now Thiel moves to the encore, to his big finish.
Search Engine
Genesis
A list of people who are holding back Bitcoin. He starts naming those enemies, posting their pictures on the Jumbotron. Enemy number one.
Search Engine
Genesis
The sociopathic grandpa from Omaha is how Thiel's referring to Warren Buffett, a 91-year-old billionaire who's committed the high crime of disparaging Bitcoin. He called it rat poison squared. Enemies list goes on. JP Morgan CEO Jamie Dimon won't invest in Bitcoin. BlackRock CEO Larry Fink has also so far abstained. They are the finance gerontocracy, Thiel closes by telling the room.
Search Engine
Genesis
So we'll be back in a few minutes. Sitting here as people stream out of Teal's Talk, I have this feeling I'll get over and over again in Miami. I feel uneasy, like physically, in my stomach. I feel like I'm watching the genesis of something bigger than I can really comprehend.
Search Engine
Genesis
In how many large rooms have groups of Americans met to share strange ideas, mocked by outsiders, bound together by outrage and paranoia, ignored until they become unignorable? I keep getting that feeling in different moments at Bitcoin Miami. Or maybe it's just my nicotine patch. I'm struggling with the nicotine patch. I go outside to get some air. I breathe.
Search Engine
Genesis
And I notice right away, there's sort of a refreshing disconnect between the amped up war machine on stage and its intended audience, the actual people at this conference. Outside, there's no army massing for war. I just see a festival. There's loud music from the sound money stage. It's a currency pun. There's a line of food trucks where you could spend $18 on a poke bowl if you're not careful.
Search Engine
Genesis
Lehman Brothers has just collapsed. Number one movie in the country, Beverly Hills Chihuahua. Number one song in the country, T.I. 's Whatever You Like. This is where I would play a clip for you, but the podcast budget does not really allow a fair use lawyer. You'll just have to imagine it.
Search Engine
Genesis
And then there's this. Every festival, of course, has the thing you're supposed to take a selfie in front of. Here, it's a gigantic plastic statue they're calling the Miami Bowl. It's like the Wall Street Bowl, but instead of old bronze, this one looks like a robot. Glossy black, body covered in circuits, eyes laser blue, like an actual real-life transformer. Everyone makes a stop at this bowl.
Search Engine
Genesis
People here are celebrating, it's a party. I keep walking past people getting just snatches of conversation where someone's telling someone a tip for how they could make more money.
Search Engine
Genesis
The phrase I hear over and over again is financial freedom. Either the freedom to not work or the freedom at least to just leave a soul-crushing job. Floating among people, catching sentence fragments about nodes and ASIC mining rigs, Honestly, I feel kind of thrilled just to be here, understanding the lingo.
Search Engine
Genesis
I feel like I've been learning French at home for many months, and now I'm gambolling around Paris with a baguette under each arm. By early afternoon, the heat is staggering. It's that kind of Florida heat that makes your brain slow down and sputter, like a computer from the 90s. I pilot myself inside to the air-conditioned exhibitor's hall. Alright, this is the exhibition room.
Search Engine
Genesis
Smells like new rugs. This big room where the conference's hundreds of sponsors are all trying to outdo each other with elaborate spectacles. Cash App, who is sponsoring it, has a huge display. There's a giant actual volcano with smoke coming out of it and a quote from Nakamoto.
Search Engine
Genesis
The nature of Bitcoin is such that once version 0.1 was released, the core design was set in stone for the rest of its lifetime. Oh, and it's an enormous stone. God, I wonder if Satoshi Nakamoto knew how much marketing copy he was writing.
Search Engine
Genesis
It's here, wandering around the exhibitor's hall, far away from the maxis on stage with their microphones, that'll meet the people whose faith is the real engine for this movement. After the break, chapter two, Pilgrims. Search Engine is brought to you by Rosetta Stone. There's a lot of reasons to learn a new language. One of my favorites, cognitive benefits, improved brain function.
Search Engine
Genesis
My brain has not been very good. Studies have shown that learning a new language can improve memory, problem solving skills, and even delay the onset of dementia. It might be too late for me, but it's not too late for you. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program, available on desktop or as an app. It truly immerses you in the language you want to learn.
Search Engine
Genesis
On Halloween of that year, 2008, a person claiming to be a Japanese man named Satoshi Nakamoto appears on a cryptography mailing list to announce his new invention, Bitcoin. He describes this invention in a white paper. It's called Bitcoin, a peer-to-peer electronic cash system. This white paper, it's an elegant document. Text runs just eight pages long, minus footnotes.
Search Engine
Genesis
Rosetta Stone has been a trusted expert for 30 years, with millions of users and 25 languages offered. Lifetime membership has all 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. Search Engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off.
Search Engine
Genesis
Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine. That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. Search Engine is brought to you by Fresh Direct. I really like Fresh Direct.
Search Engine
Genesis
When I go to the grocery store, for some reason, my brain goes into like screensaver mode and it takes me forever and I get lost and I come back with half of the things I actually need. So I end up saving hours a week just using Fresh Direct. Fresh Direct is farm to kitchen, food sourced directly from farmers, fishermen, and ranchers and delivered straight to your door.
Search Engine
Genesis
Because of this, I'm paying for the quality of food rather than just paying someone to go to a store for me. FreshDirect says they are seven days fresher than the grocery store. And honestly, you can tell the difference. The convenience is unbeatable. You can grocery shop from your office or your couch whenever you want. The most recent thing I ordered from FreshDirect was a fennel bulb.
Search Engine
Genesis
I mean, I had other stuff too, but the fennel was really good. For over 20 years, FreshDirect has been delivering the freshest fruits, vegetables, and meats to the tri-state area. Don't take my word for it. Try to believe it with $50 off your first order. Go to FreshDirect.com and use code SEARCHENGINE. That's FreshDirect.com, code SEARCHENGINE, for new customers to save $50 on their first order.
Search Engine
Genesis
Terms and restrictions apply. See site for details. Welcome back to the show. Chapter Two, Pilgrims. So I'm walking through the sponsor area, genuinely just appreciating all these lunatic brand activations. This is a weird sort of light chamber that I don't understand. It's very cool looking, kind of looks like the set for Mo Money Mo Problems.
Search Engine
Genesis
Lanu and Marnita. Lanu flew from Hawaii to be here, 16 hours. She's Polynesian, curly hair, floral blouse, high heels. Marnita came in from Colorado. She's black. She's dressed more casually. Bright pink sneakers, dreads dyed half white, half this color that's almost like neon kelp.
Search Engine
Genesis
Marnita, not a maxi. She's not preparing for war against the global elites. But Bitcoin's cultural power, it probably owes more to the fact that so many normal people like her have fallen down this rabbit hole.
Search Engine
Genesis
In precise academic language, he describes the problem he set out to solve. Quote, Bitcoin, a peer-to-peer electronic... Quote, Bitcoin, a peer-to-peer electronic... Bitcoin, a peer-to-peer electronic cash system.
Search Engine
Genesis
That voice, it belonged to her cousin Brandon, someone Marnita feels extremely grateful towards.
Search Engine
Genesis
crypto educators. Some call themselves tutors. They're a big part of the scene. I've been really hoping to meet one here. I wanted to talk to Marnita's cousin Brandon, and she wanted to make the connection, but right now he was AWOL.
Search Engine
Genesis
While we wait, she continues the story of how she got into crypto. She'd seen Brandon's post, hadn't initially been that interested, but then she'd noticed something about the comments beneath it. Just a mix of people there.
Search Engine
Genesis
There are a lot of these crypto groups on Facebook, on Telegram, Discord. Some charge, some are free. Many are definitely scams. Crypto tutors who charge money for obvious advice or even accept bribes to push certain coins on their followers without disclosing. There are also legitimate ones where groups of people invest together and try to just trade good information.
Search Engine
Genesis
At Bitcoin Miami, I will meet person after person who will refer to the groups or to the crypto tutors who have led them here. Sometimes I'll think, obvious scammer. But a lot of times I'll just wonder, not being able to tell how legit some specific tutor is. Partly just because the Bitcoin price shot up so much after the stimulus during the pandemic that all boats had kind of risen.
Search Engine
Genesis
We wanted to start in that document and trace it to where it had led, to see how something that is so open to interpretation could be interpreted in some very strange ways. We wanted to meet the pilgrims who had followed in Satoshi Nakamoto's wake. I hope you enjoy it. This one is special to me. We'll play it after some brief ads. Surge Engine is brought to you by AutoTrader.
Search Engine
Genesis
So the only information I really have is how the people I'm talking to feel about their experiences, what they tell me. Marnita was really happy with her cousin Brandon. He'd made a big promise about financial freedom. Three years later, that promise was paying off. But of course, it didn't always work out that way. Lanu, Marnita's friend, was also talking to me about financial freedom.
Search Engine
Genesis
And I said to her, you know, the hard thing about those words is I hear them and I just sort of want to pat my pockets to make sure my wallet's still there. In my experience, some of the people that'll say to you, like, I'm trying to free you or trying to scam you. And I feel like you guys ran into that as well, right?
Search Engine
Genesis
Lanu's education happened in Facebook groups and online meetups. She actually met Marnita at one of those online events. This conference in Miami is their first time hanging out IRL. Lanu believes that understanding crypto means understanding society. Understanding that rich people hoard wealth and hoard information they only share with each other.
Search Engine
Genesis
Obviously, we don't know who Satoshi really is, but this is as close as I could get to the voice I hear in my head when I read this. And when I read it, I don't really try to follow the technical description. I just listen for this voice. Calm, academic to the point of being pretty dry. Nothing about this white paper, to me, screams impending revolution.
Search Engine
Genesis
Crypto, for her, it's a way for the 99% to start to help each other the way rich people do. I don't know. Call it outsider trading.
Search Engine
Genesis
Lanu's a miner. She mines crypto, but not Bitcoin. The computing power required to mine actual Bitcoin is too expensive for her. That space has mostly been taken over by large corporations. So Lanu mines smaller, more obscure coins. Can I ask how much you're getting a day in mining?
Search Engine
Genesis
Lana and Marnita left for the tattoo booth. Brandon Ivey never appeared. Something I never knew exactly how to feel about, but saw over and over again, were just people pulling other people into Bitcoin. Every Lanu and Marnita had a brand in Ivy, and were themselves a brand in Ivy to several others. It boggled my mind sometimes, just the scale of it.
Search Engine
Genesis
One idea from a white paper PDF, reproduced over and over, transmitted person to person, gave me that feeling in my stomach again of witnessing something enormous without knowing yet what that enormity would mean.
Search Engine
Genesis
The place I felt that enormity at its maximum strength was when I saw a panel essentially of three Brandon Ivies, well, crypto educators, who also happen to be world-famous celebrity athletes. It was at a panel called Pay Me in Bitcoin.
Search Engine
Genesis
On the Nakamoto stage, wide receiver Odell Beckham Jr., quarterback Aaron Rodgers, and tennis star Serena Williams. All three athletes had signed deals with Cash App, the event sponsor. Cash App is like Venmo, but with a lot more crypto trading. So Cash App wanted to convince their customers to direct deposit their paychecks and auto-invest the money in Bitcoin.
Search Engine
Genesis
Like, whatever you get paid from work, just instantly put a percentage towards Bitcoin investing. These athletes on stage were not directly making that pitch. Instead, they were saying that athletes should get paid in Bitcoin. Here's Serena Williams talking about diversity among Bitcoin holders.
Search Engine
Genesis
Serena Williams of the three was the most conscientious about using the sponsor's name. Odell Beckham Jr., mostly quiet. Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay Packers quarterback, most famous recently for his alternative views on COVID vaccines. He convincingly says that he's taking his NFL salary in Bitcoin now.
Search Engine
Genesis
He describes his journey to that decision like any athlete explaining to the hometown why he signed up to play for them this season.
Search Engine
Genesis
extolling the virtues of doing your own research, very big Bitcoin thing, generally reciting Bitcoin or bromides that the room eats directly from his hand.
Search Engine
Genesis
I leave the conference that day just sort of in awe that Aaron Rodgers, Serena Williams, and Peter Thiel are rallying around the same anything. That night, my journalist friend Liz lets me tag along to this party thrown by a crypto exchange. They've rented the local museum. The party is set in this cavernous room.
Search Engine
Genesis
It's a pretty good spectacle. Feels like what you'd see at a nice wedding party for two crypto barons, I imagine. Pretty soon, I run out of nicotine patches and I head home. The next day, I'm back at the conference center for another round of talks. But that feeling of dutiful grad student is beginning to wear off. I see my friend Liz.
Search Engine
Genesis
What Satoshi is saying is that there will now be electronic cash, money native to the Internet. And when that money is spent, the ledger of who has it and who sold it will be kept by the users, not by a centralized bank, not by a third party company. Satoshi's white paper does not explicitly describe an ideology, but a worldview thrums through it. You can find it if you know where to look.
Search Engine
Genesis
I'm just getting sales fatigue. Like I've had to watch 24 hours of a QVC pitch for one product. So around 4 p.m. that day, I decided to skip the next talk and I leave the building. Outside, the Miami heat continues to swelter, 80 degrees verging on 200. I pass back by the conference entrance, where organizers are handing out schwag.
Search Engine
Genesis
Orange Bitcoin sunglasses and bottles of water, I'll take one of those. Everything Bitcoin is always orange. I find myself out on the sidewalk, on a cloudless day, on the corner of Convention Center and 17th. Two street preachers have set up shop. One is the traditional kind, an older woman with a sign preaching that Jesus is the only way.
Search Engine
Genesis
I try to listen respectfully, but I'm a little distracted because someone's playing a song on an electric violin nearby, and I can almost but not quite figure out what it is.
Search Engine
Genesis
is actually a kind of person I thought I'd never see at Bitcoin Miami, a dissenter. That's after the break. Search Engine is brought to you by Seed. Whether you're off to the pool, hiking, or traveling this summer, you're bringing your microbiome with you too. The 38 trillion bacteria that live in and on you, especially your gut, are essential to whole body health.
Search Engine
Genesis
Seed's DS01 Daily Synbiotic benefits your gut, skin, and heart health in just two capsules a day. Your body is an ecosystem, and great whole body health starts in the gut. Your gut is a central hub for various pathways through the body, and a healthy gut microbiome means benefits for digestion, skin health, heart health, your immune system, and much more.
Search Engine
Genesis
With clinical trials and breakthrough research published in top scientific journals, Seed's probiotic research and development makes DS01 a product you know you can trust. Support your gut this summer with Seed's DS01 Daily Symbiotic. Go to seed.com slash search and use code 25search to get 25% off your first month.
Search Engine
Genesis
That's 25% off your first month of Seed's DS01 Daily Symbiotic at seed.com slash search, code 25search. Search Engine is brought to you by Shopify.
Search Engine
Genesis
When you think about businesses whose sales are rocketing, like Feastables by Mr. Beast, or Thrive Cosmetics, or Silicon Valley's weekend uniform supplier, Cotopaxi, sure, you think about an innovative product, but an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business, making selling, and for shoppers, buying, simple. For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify.
Search Engine
Genesis
Nobody does selling better than Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling, on the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Mr. Beast uses.
Search Engine
Genesis
Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com slash S-E-N-G, all lowercase. Go to Shopify.com slash S-E-N-G to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com slash S-E-N-G. Surge Engine is brought to you by ShipStation. These days, it feels like every device we use is getting smarter and more connected. We have smartwatches. We have Wi-Fi enabled LED light bulbs.
Search Engine
Genesis
The world keeps getting smarter. Your e-commerce business should too. Whether you're looking for incredible efficiency or your business has outgrown your old shipping solutions, ShipStation helps you take the next step. ShipStation's features are a game changer for your business. You can easily automate shipping tasks and manage orders from one simple dashboard.
Search Engine
Genesis
All your automations will allow smooth printing shipping labels at the click of a button. You'll save thousands on shipping with industry-leading carrier discounts. Lead your business into the future with technology built to save you from extra costs and headaches. Lead your e-commerce business into a smarter future with the shipping software that delivers. Switch to ShipStation today.
Search Engine
Genesis
For instance, the Genesis block. The very first recorded transaction on Satoshi's ledger, which he himself mines just a few months after publishing the white paper. Satoshi embeds in that Genesis block an actual headline from a newspaper. The London Times, 3rd of January 2009. Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks. This text embedded into the blockchain.
Search Engine
Genesis
Go to ShipStation.com and use code SEARCH to sign up for your free 60-day trial. That's ShipStation.com, code SEARCH. Welcome back to the show. Chapter four, the apostate. For two days, I've been in a place where pretty much everyone seems to share the exact same beliefs. Bitcoin is financial freedom. You should buy Bitcoin. You should convince your family to buy Bitcoin.
Search Engine
Genesis
Here, outside on the sidewalk, I'm going to witness this movement encounter a person who disagrees with them, an apostate. I have a soft spot for all apostates, but this one in particular. This street preacher, wearing a Gilligan's Island bucket hat, standing outside the Bitcoin convention peddling an anti-Bitcoin message.
Search Engine
Genesis
When Abram read the white paper, he saw a promise, not of a world where people got rich, but of a new tool that everyone could use. So what he sees at this conference, it disappoints him. Plus, he points out, wasn't the whole point of the white paper to create a currency unencumbered by profiteering middlemen?
Search Engine
Genesis
So I got to say, I don't usually talk to street preachers with such a cogent take on the financial system.
Search Engine
Genesis
Craig Wright. I should tell you, there's another side to Abram's sign, the back, where he exhorts people to follow Craig Wright. Craig Wright, very much persona non grata here at Bitcoin Miami. His crimes, he claims to be Satoshi Nakamoto, which they don't like. And he's encouraged people to turn away from Bitcoin to use a different coin.
Search Engine
Genesis
So that's the conclusion to Abrams' whole argument, that everyone is here worshipping a fake Bitcoin and they should follow the real one. Craig writes alternative Bitcoin. If none of what I've said upsets you, you probably weren't at Bitcoin Miami. The most dramatic moment I will witness in my time here. And for me, of course, my favorite.
Search Engine
Genesis
It starts because this man who's simply walking by, middle-aged guy in a polo shirt with a software company logo on it. He comes up, reads the front of Abram's sign, the less provocative part, and asks a little angrily, are you saying Bitcoin's evil?
Search Engine
Genesis
Embedded into the blockchain forever. Countries, normally, put presidents on their money. Satoshi, instead, has stuck a newspaper headline on his that, presumably, he felt a way about. Government prints money to save bankers' asses. Maybe that's what Satoshi wanted everyone to think about whenever they used his blockchain. I can't help but see this white paper as a Bible of some new religion.
Search Engine
Genesis
This guy's getting pretty heated up, and he hadn't even seen the back of the sign yet. Abram's spiel about Cash App is working much less well on him than it had on me. And then Abram decides to escalate things a little bit more. He invokes the holy document.
Search Engine
Genesis
This third voice you hear, that is a new fighter who has entered the arena. A white guy holding a drink, younger, in a bucket hat with piercing blue eyes and a whale wristband. I later find out he's a Bitcoin rapper named Captain Youth. Right now, Captain Youth and the polo shirt guy, they're teaming up.
Search Engine
Genesis
I've been in this conversation before. I mean, not this one, but I've seen pro-life people ask pro-choice people, when do you think life begins? These passionate, angry, completely talking past each other conversations, they're basically what America's made out of. But I've never heard it happen over two different kinds of Bitcoin.
Search Engine
Genesis
This is where Captain Youth rests his case, not by pointing to other possible holes in Abram's argument, but on the idea that Abram would ever place his trust in a jury, a symbol of centralized authority. I don't know how you prove anything, really, if all centralized authority is suspect, but no one solves that problem, or any other problem here on the sidewalk.
Search Engine
Genesis
The Crypto Tutor. This whole time I've been wanting to meet a crypto tutor, an educator, and it finally happens because of Abram. A few minutes after Captain Youth leaves in disgust, another man comes up to argue with Abram. This man has a long beard, platinum grill, three or four gold chains. This man and Abram, their debate doesn't last very long.
Search Engine
Genesis
It ends with Abram inviting the man to a party he's hosting. Abram, the street preacher, also apparently hosting a party. Who knew?
Search Engine
Genesis
The man with the beard is part of a crypto crew called the KP Primates. They bought a mutant ape from the Bored Ape Yacht Club. They built a whole community around it. I started asking him about the KP Primates crew, and he motions me over to the BMW that they're packed into. I can meet the guys.
Search Engine
Genesis
The man in the front passenger seat is a crypto tutor. He says he's on a mission to educate people about crypto.
Search Engine
Genesis
Over the next 13 years, Bitcoin will become popular, arguably, to some people, even useful. And it will certainly find its adherence. This vision Satoshi Nakamoto is trying to call into existence, strangers will see that vision. It'll give them their own visions of the future, futures they want, where they're free from the lives they're bound to.
Search Engine
Genesis
So he went from celestial guidance to XRP. The coin XRP has a less than sterling reputation in crypto. The company behind it is being sued by the SEC. But that didn't seem to be an issue for the KP primates.
Search Engine
Genesis
Not that anyone asked me, but the Crypto Pimp's predictions about both the likelihood of crypto regulation and the inevitability of systems towards greater centralization totally mirrors my analysis. He tells me where to find his Instagram and his Discord, and then he and the crew take off. And those gentlemen just drove away in their very nice BMW.
Search Engine
Genesis
I'll look them up later and see that the KP primates are trying to build a strip club in the metaverse. What a world. That night, I pop by a party run by a DAO where I learn how small talk works at a Web3 party.
Search Engine
Genesis
The next day is the final day of the conference. Walking in for the last day of the Bitcoin conference. They turned it into a music festival against everyone's better judgment. Outside, on the big lawn, warmongering and crypto-shilling have given way to a music festival. Steve Aoki is playing later, but first, several hours of warmups.
Search Engine
Genesis
And they will follow this vision with a religious fervor. Some very weird people will get rich. Alongside Bitcoin, many new coins will spawn, each presenting not just a new version of how this technology can work, but within a slightly tweaked vision of a different new future. And each time led by a different nerdy, charismatic figurehead.
Search Engine
Genesis
That's outside. Inside, standing next to the giant Cash App volcano, I find Ryan Broderick. Ryan's an internet culture reporter. He has this newsletter called Garbage Day. Ryan was at the conference with his dad, Paul Broderick. Conveniently, the last type of person I was hoping to meet at this conference. Chapter six, the horse trader.
Search Engine
Genesis
Ryan's dad started investing in crypto during the pandemic, but he had never met crypto people before. Miami was his introduction. Ryan's dad is a pure investor, a middle-class guy, a retired former assistant clerk magistrate. Not here because he believes in the new world order. Not here because he believes in financial freedom. Just a guy playing around in a weird new kind of stock market.
Search Engine
Genesis
I was very, very curious to see how all this insanity had landed on him. The problem was, Ryan's dad was nowhere to be found. He'd wandered off to a virtual reality yacht experience. You're on a yacht and then you put on VR glasses to see it?
Search Engine
Genesis
Eventually we tracked him down. Forewarning here. You're going to hear me giggling a lot off mic in this interview. I'm sorry. Just really something about the way Paul Broderick spins a yarn. He told me his crypto adventure started one night when he and his son Ryan were drinking and talking about the price of Bitcoin.
Search Engine
Genesis
You'll have your Vitalik Buterin's, your Charles Hoskinson's, Elon Musk will end up in there somehow. Crypto, which outsiders like me will see as a monolithic, coherent world of crypto bros, will actually be a deeply balkanized world of competing tribes, loyal to different futurists.
Search Engine
Genesis
So I read up on the Arabian horse market and kind of a crazy moment in 1980s America. The Arabian horse craze happened because at the time, a quirk of Reagan-era tax laws meant that the ultra-wealthy could buy expensive horses, but then use them to slash their tax bills. That drove up demand, which created middlemen like Ryan Stead.
Search Engine
Genesis
If you wanted to buy a horse from him, you'd fly to Kansas City, where a four-seater jet would pick you up to take you to the breeding farm in nearby Glidden, Iowa. For Rynzad, it was expensive, paying for the farm, training the horses.
Search Engine
Genesis
For a glorious moment, Ryan's dad was making money hand over fist. And he was learning a lesson he could apply later. Just because something was kind of ridiculous, it didn't mean he couldn't make money off of it. Just so long as he wasn't the one stuck holding the hot potato in the end. All this insanity in Miami, he'd seen it before. He'd survived the horse-crazy 80s.
Search Engine
Genesis
So, Ryan, you're a very well-versed internet culture reporter. This is your dad. He's investing in Bitcoin. What do you think when you see that?
Search Engine
Genesis
But it's the original group, the Bitcoiners, the cult of Satoshi Nakamoto, who will seem, at least to me, the strangest. And to try to understand them, to understand the world which this white paper has called into being, I will find myself on a very hot April weekend in Miami, alone in a bathroom with a small tape recorder at a very large conference. So here we go.
Search Engine
Genesis
Bitcoin Miami, besides being an unlikely bonding experience, it also helped Ryan just get a better understanding of diehard Bitcoiners. These people that actually both he and I are used to seeing online where they're shrouded behind their laser eyes avatars, but who neither of us had really met in the real world.
Search Engine
Genesis
Now we shared our sort of updated Game of Thrones opening scene map topography of what the crypto landscape looks like now, having been here.
Search Engine
Genesis
I mean, that's, we were talking about this, but like one of the things that I found, like a dawning realization I had was that if, if everyone at this conference is right and they are scooping up all the money that is going to be the money of the world, they do kind of on some level believe that like they are the new haves and they're ahead of the have nots.
Search Engine
Genesis
It's a grim prognosis. It hangs in the air for a minute as conference goers mail past. Are these people going to be my grandchildren's feudal space lords? I think about the white paper. About all the people it sent on pilgrimage here. For all their strange and personal reasons. Even me. Um, thank you both. You're welcome. You're welcome, PJ. Ryan and Paul Broderick head outside.
Search Engine
Genesis
They want to go see the music festival. They recommend I check out the egg roll guy. Apparently, that's the best food truck.
Search Engine
Genesis
I walk upstairs, pass some booths to talk to some more people. I'm supposed to meet up with that Bitcoin rapper, Captain Youth. He promised to wrap some bars for me. But now I start to feel really weird. A little bit scared, a little bit of this unreal feeling. My chest starts to tighten. That panicked, uneasy feeling in my stomach, it starts to go off like a fire alarm.
Search Engine
Genesis
I don't know why it's happening. I go to the bathroom to try to find some quiet, but now the bathroom feels really small, and I'm trying to find the main door. My tape recorder's still on. I feel like I'm in a dream. Like, I feel like I'm having a dream. I don't know why. I'm just like... I just walked out of the bathroom past a very wealthy Bitcoin rapper.
Search Engine
Genesis
And then just like the conference room is like swarmed with people who have invested like some portion of their future in a thing that like literally, like I don't know if I'm going to look back at this and think, oh, this is like all these people who are about to get like wiped out or all these people who are going to be like future oligarchs of like a moon planet.
Search Engine
Genesis
I find myself collapsed on the sidewalk while the guy who runs the egg roll truck, who calls himself China Man, blares out mixtape-style endorsements of his own food.
Search Engine
Genesis
I'll later realize I'd slapped on two full-strength nicotine patches, the shortest route I've ever found to a panic attack. That's later. For now, heart jitterbugging, I pull myself up to do the one last thing I need to before I can go home. That's it for Crypto Island this week at the Bitcoin Miami conference. This podcast, I hope I don't need to say this, is not financial advice.
Search Engine
Genesis
If you listen to a person's fever dream in Miami, do not buy Bitcoin off of it. Thank you for listening. See you next episode.
Search Engine
Genesis
So it's the first day of Bitcoin Miami, supposedly the world's largest Bitcoin conference. And I've just left a somewhat quiet bathroom to reenter the hulking complex that is the convention center. Miami Convention Center, a deeply nondescript large building with some palm trees outside of it. Inside, so many people. And they paid a lot of money to be here.
Search Engine
Genesis
If you're driving right now, look around. See all those cars? You can find them on AutoTrader because they have the largest selection of new cars, used cars, electric cars, even flying cars. Okay, no flying cars yet. But as soon as those get invented, they'll be on AutoTrader.
Search Engine
Genesis
The week of the conference, regular passes were going for around $1,000. The expensive tickets, the whale passes, were going for $21,000. The best estimates I see say that 25,000 people are here. The floor feels like a mix of normal-looking people and some genuine weirdos. It's like a lot of interesting outfits. There's two guys in flight suits.
Search Engine
Genesis
People who look like they got lost on the way to Burning Man or like extras in a novelty rap video. A lot of gold Bitcoin chains. Indoor sunglasses. Women with QR codes on their butts. Another flight suit. I run into a German guy with a t-shirt that's just Satoshi's headline. The one he printed in the Genesis block.
Search Engine
Genesis
You could spend a whole day here just reading the t-shirts. I see a bunch bashing fiat money. Money issued by government. Like it's a rival sports team. Anti-fiat social club t-shirt. I'm in a place where people are rooting for a currency like it's their country.
Search Engine
Genesis
In fact, they've printed out a copy of the Declaration of Independence, a room-sized version, but they've changed it so that now it's about Bitcoin. When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the monetary bonds which have enslaved them to a fiat system of government decree and to assume
Search Engine
Genesis
If I sound like I'm at a funeral here, it's not because I'm a Declaration of Independence purist. I'm just feeling a little self-conscious, standing in a room full of people, talking to a recorder. But my approach today is to be a rookie grad student. I'm going to go to every panel. I'm going to take lots of notes.
Search Engine
Genesis
I want to document the different groups of people drawn to Bitcoin, the followers assembled at this very strange mecca. Chapter one, the fundamentalists.
Search Engine
Genesis
Five men sitting on stage on leather couches in front of a backdrop of the Bitcoin logo against some palm trees. I'd chosen this talk out of all the others because it had a great title, Wartime Bitcoin. My assumption was that the panelists here would be talking about something I was really curious about, the war in Ukraine.
Search Engine
Genesis
Not only can you find that car you just saw, you can find it at a price personalized to you with Kelley Bluebook MyWallet on AutoTrader. From credit scores to down payments to interest rates, we all know that car buying requires a lot of math.
Search Engine
Genesis
An unprecedented amount of crypto has been donated to the Ukrainian side this year. That's what I thought they'd be talking about. I was wrong. Wartime Bitcoin actually meant the secret war that some Bitcoiners believe is being waged against Bitcoin by the global elites.
Search Engine
Genesis
Financial war, bombs of inflation, a controlled demolition of the economy. It's as if that fairly subtle note of frustration at the banks in Satoshi's white paper, it has blossomed into this potent cocktail of conspiracy and rage. Here's one panelist talking about actually confronting one of the bailout's architects in person, former Fed Reserve Chair Ben Bernanke.
Search Engine
Genesis
Luke Rutkowski, the man telling the story, is a YouTuber slash survivalist. His all caps T-shirt reads, Jeffrey Epstein did not kill himself. Just to give you a sense of this panel's vibe. Luke is the moderator. This rage against the banks, the governments, against central authority, this is what unites the five panelists who have come from all over.
Search Engine
Genesis
Australia, Italy, the U.S., two Canadians, one a spokesman from the Canadian trucker protests, the other a French-Canadian who's wearing a camo vest with a patch that says in Latin, if you want peace, prepare for war.
Search Engine
Genesis
Enter MyWallet on AutoTrader, a tool that shows you exactly how much you'll pay each month for your car based on your unique info, so you never have to do car math again. So whether you're into timeless classics or the latest trends, did someone say solar-powered, eco-friendly, self-driving car?
Search Engine
Genesis
These guys on stage, I'm realizing, are what are called Bitcoin maximalists. Maxis. I've seen them online. I've never seen them in the flesh. The most hardcore Maxis believe that Bitcoin will become the only digital currency, perhaps the world's main currency, full stop. They're Bitcoin fundamentalists, essentially.
Search Engine
Genesis
To spend time with Maxis is to spend time in a world where the bank bailouts of 2008 were not just bad policy or an example of corrupt American elites protecting their own in a crisis. For Maxis, those bank bailouts had the emotional valence of watching Santa Claus get dragged out of the mall by his beard and shot in front of children. No one here is over it. No one wants to be over it.
Search Engine
Genesis
Bitcoin will be their revenge. The plan goes like this. The government has power because it controls the money. So take that power away from them. Convert your dollars to Bitcoin. Create a world where there's no bank bailouts, no printing money out of thin air, no Fed chair announcing that inflation is going to rise. Fix the money, the maxis say, and you can fix the world. That's the idea.
Search Engine
Genesis
But interestingly, these maxis are equally fired up about the threat to Bitcoin just posed by other cryptocurrencies. All those other coins that toddled after Bitcoin with their own little white papers, those are shit coins. Those are apostates. Here's another panelist.
Search Engine
Genesis
Or whether you just want something practical with no surprise costs, if you see a car you like, find it on AutoTrader. See it, find it, AutoTrader. A lot of people already know the origin story of Bitcoin, but I'm just going to recite it one more time. It is fall of 2008. Good evening. George W. Bush is president. We're in the midst of a serious financial crisis.
Search Engine
Genesis
There's a bunker vibe to the Maxon community, a feeling of perpetual besiegement. As I dutifully walk from talk to talk, notebook in hand. Excuse me, do you know where meeting room 229 is? I'm realizing these bunker vibes permeate the stages of Bitcoin Miami.
Search Engine
Genesis
There's one panel devoted to discussing Bitcoin's environmental impacts. It's called You Are the Carbon They Want to Reduce. Like, the people who say that we should reduce Bitcoin carbon emissions are talking about getting rid of you, a carbon-based life form. These nervous, prickly capitalists, they're a movement. They're fired up. But they have no leader. Satoshi is anonymous.
Search Engine
Genesis
He does not issue marching orders, which means that other populists step into that vacuum. I see one of them that afternoon in the Nakamoto Arena. Okay, I'm walking into the Nakamoto Arena to see Peter Thiel address a very excited crowd. Peter Thiel is the keynote speaker here. Billionaire PayPal founder. The largest single donor to Republican politicians this year.
Search Engine
Genesis
Well, actually, he's tied with a man named Ken Griffin, who happens to own a copy of the U.S. Constitution. Small world. Anyway, Thiel is gracing the Nakamoto Arena today. An enormous room that could house Thai fighters. Orange laser lights and strobes. Thousands of seats. It looks pretty full.
Search Engine
Genesis
Up at the front, the seats reserved for the whales, those people who spent as much as $21,000 for their wristbands.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Surge Engine is brought to you by Discover Doublenomics. We discuss all things finance and economics here, but have you heard about Doublenomics? It's okay if you haven't because we like to keep you in the know and it's extremely niche. Here's an example of Doublenomics. Discover automatically doubles the cash back earned on your credit card at the end of your first year with cash back match.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
A stock, anything that gains value, that you then don't sell, we call that gain an unrealized gain. An unrealized gain is any time something you own becomes more valuable, but you hold on to it. My unsold Eric Lindros rookie card that is somewhere in my parents' house is an unrealized gain. In theory, it's worth more money than when I bought it, but I'm not benefiting from that gain right now.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
I'm not, but we now know someone like Elon Musk can. Billionaires like him are constantly borrowing against their unrealized gains. Joe Biden is saying, when it comes to these billionaires, we should treat that gain in value as if it's real money, in their pocket, that should be taxed. And that, believe it or not, is an extremely, extremely controversial idea.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
And so people are very offended by the notion. When you say people are offended by the notion, like of all the third rails in American culture, taxing unrealized gains was like a spicy topic that ProPublica was afraid to poke?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Jesse's quick to point out that tax textbooks across the country do consider unrealized gains income, but the idea of taxing that income is a lot spicier. Jesse and ProPublica got very similar flack to the flack that Joe Biden received.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Our government, since its inception, has been in this push and pull with the very wealthy. The government typically tries to get them to pay more. They mostly try to pay less. Sometimes this push and pull is so strong, it actually changes the nature of wealth, changes, in some ways, the structure of our economy.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
So what if right now you wanted to bring more billionaires more firmly into our tax system? There's a few possible solutions. Solution one, the one Jesse is getting so much crap for pointing to, is to just make a law that would let the government tax unrealized gains. There's a bill that would do this. It's based on Biden's proposal. It's called the Billionaire Minimum Income Tax Act.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
It's like he's trying to whisper directly into the troubled mind of Elon Musk. This billionaire minimum income tax, it would actually apply not just to billionaires, but to any American whose net worth exceeds $100 million, meaning 99.99% of Americans would be unaffected by it.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
After Joe Biden left the race, Kamala Harris adopted his same plan. Here she is on 60 Minutes, an hour-long television show, discussing it.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
It's very easy for most of us to get on board with a plan like this. More money for roads, no skin off our backs. But I wanted to run it by a more skeptical expert. Okay. Are you all settled? Are you good?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Okay. First of all, I can just say your name and what you do.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Is Manhattan Institute technically a think tank?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Think tank always feels like a weird, I'm like, it always makes me think of Star Wars and the Baxia tanks. Like everyone's put in like sort of amniotic fluid all day and forced to come up with policy ideas.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Honestly, that sounds completely lovely. That sounds like a great way to spend your entire life. Maybe I should have said this earlier, but ProPublica, where Jesse works, is a nonpartisan investigative journalism organization. But the thrust of their reporting, to me, leans left. The Manhattan Institute, where Allison sits in a tank and thinks. Their thrust, generally conservative.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
I would say Romney, not Trump. But that means, in a sense, yeah, maybe it's not surprising that this person from this place is skeptical about an innovative new tax on the rich. But the thing is, Alison does believe that billionaires need to pay more than they're paying.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
So Allison agrees on the problem, but she doesn't like the fix that the Democrats are suggesting.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Meaning like you can actually say like the stock was worth this on the day you bought it. It was worth this on the day you sold it. And so it's really easy to say what the value was and you just take the tax rate and you're out of there.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Today, if we've done our jobs correctly, and who knows, we've hopefully suckered you into paying attention to a story about 110 years of American tax policy. Let's find out.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
After this call with Allison, we looked through the Biden-Harris proposal, all 256 pages of it, not me, we. It does actually have pretty specific answers to many of these questions. There's a specific date where you'd measure the unrealized gain, and if there's a loss, there'd be a credit.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Jesse Eisner told me that he's spoken to tax experts who say the details in this proposal actually seem quite thought through. I do take Alison's point that the ease of collecting a tax matters.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
And I'm also moved by this idea she has that a new tax could be distortive, meaning taxing something we've never taxed before could have social consequences beyond what we imagine, some of which we might not like. Alison does have some other competing ideas for ways to get more tax revenue from the wealthy, which brings us to solution two, get rid of step-up in basis.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Step up in basis. God, when did this podcast get so in the weeds? Step up in basis basically is another way that a wealthy person can give an asset to their kids and in doing so, avoid a lot of taxes. Allison explained how that tax maneuver works right now.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
So rather than paying the difference between what Amazon was worth when Jeff Bezos started it and what it was worth the day that they sold it, they would pay the difference between what Amazon was worth the day they inherited it from Jeff Bezos and the day that they sold it, which would be a much, much smaller taxable windfall for the government.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
So September 2020, Jesse Isinger, a senior editor and reporter at ProPublica, had gotten this leak of internal documents from an anonymous source, the tax returns of thousands of the wealthiest Americans dating back over 15 years.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
So that is one way you're like, okay, if you wanted to find a way to capture more tax revenue from the very wealthy... You would do this. And one of the reasons I'm assuming you like this plan better is because it feels easier to collect, easier to measure.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Allison also proposed a third solution, eliminating the carried interest loophole. That's essentially a loophole that allows private equity executives to avoid income tax on most of their take-home pay. If you don't like this fix and don't work in private equity, please send me an email. I would love to know more. But closing both of these loopholes seems like a pretty good start.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
The Harris campaign supports both of these changes, but Allison pointed out that when push comes to shove, the politics here are actually kind of tricky.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
And then like, I guess my question is like, if the feeling is that there's not a lot of political momentum behind eliminating some of these loopholes, like how do you think we solve the problem realistically of we need to collect more tax revenue?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
And why is that? Why can't we just take more money from rich people?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
But it seems like they have a lot of money.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
So you think everyone's going to have to pay more, but that that's a conversation that's politically a bit of a loser.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Raise the taxes not just on billionaires, but also nurses, teachers, firefighters, even podcasters. You can imagine this idea tanking a presidential campaign. But between Jesse and Allison, you can at least hear the range between the left and the center on how to fix the billionaire part of the tax problem. The center thinks we can solve this problem mainly by closing loopholes.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
As you move left, you find people who think the problem here is bigger, requiring more drastic solutions. I can be persuaded that taxing unrealized gains might be risky or too complicated, but the notion that we need to do something drastic here, I still find persuasive. And I partly find it persuasive because I now know we've done the drastic thing before.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
In those leaked tax returns, Jesse and the team at ProPublica could see proof of this maneuver, a maneuver that some academics and economists had suspected was now being deployed by the country's wealthiest. What did the documents help you understand that you hadn't understood before?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
The story that historian Molly Mitchellmore told about creating the federal income tax in the 1940s about FDR, in that story, I hear us creating our modern country by getting everyone to pony up for it. And for several decades after, our wealthiest really did pay extraordinarily high marginal tax rates, as high as 94%.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
We had a country we all paid for, and the consensus was that that was the patriotic thing to do. Taxes, the price of citizenship. That belief decayed over time. You can see that decay at its worst, actually, in 2016, during one of Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump's debates.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
There's this famous moment where Hillary Clinton accuses Donald Trump of tax avoidance, saying that some years, the self-proclaimed billionaire had paid zero dollars in federal taxes. And Trump replies, as if it's obvious, that makes me smart. This idea that paying taxes to the federal government is for suckers, expressed by a candidate for president.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Of all Trump's scandals, his tax avoidance and his refusal to release his tax returns to me did not seem like the largest. But they did bother one person. Bothered him a lot. A former contractor at the IRS who would go back to that job expressly to try to leak the president's tax returns. And later on, decide while he was there to go ahead and leak a lot more.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Eventually, to a reporter named Jesse Isinger. After the break, our final chapter in this tax saga, we return to the person we started with. The whistleblower. Search Engine is brought to you by Betterment. Do you want your money to be motivated? Do you want your money to rise and grind? Do you think your money should get up and work? Don't worry, Betterment is here to help.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Betterment is the automated investing and savings app that makes your money hustle. Their automated technology is built to help maximize returns. Meaning when you invest with Betterment, your money can auto adjust as you get closer to your goal. Rebalance if your portfolio gets too far out of line and your dividends are automatically reinvested. That can increase the potential for compound returns.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
In other words, your money is working like a dog while you can be sleeping like one and snoring like one too. You'll never picture your money the same way again. Betterment, the automated investing and savings app that makes your money hustle. Visit betterment.com to get started. Investing involves risk. Performance is not guaranteed. Search Engine is brought to you by Spotpet.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Searching listeners know that I love my dog more than anything else in this world. I want to be buried in a pyramid with him when he dies or when I die. Whoever goes first, we're going together. I want to share a message from our trusted companion in helping you be ready for any unexpected vet visits. Spot Pet Insurance. Spot Pet Insurance is your virtual ally against the unexpected.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
With Spot Plans, you can receive up to 90% cash back on eligible vet bills, helping to transform unforeseen expenses into manageable moments of care for your cherished pets. Spot Pet Insurance plans go beyond just offering coverage for accidents and illnesses. Access to a 24-7 vet telehealth hotline is included with every policy, so you can ask an expert all your questions.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
You can also enhance your plan with their preventative care benefit, helping ensure routine wellness, vaccines, and more can be covered too. Head over to spotpet.com for an instant quote today. I think I'm supposed to read this part super fast, so I'm going to read this part super fast. Ready? Disclaimer, pay to add from Spot Pet Insurance.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Waiting periods, annual deductibles, co-insurance, benefit limits, and exclusions may apply. For all terms, visit spotpetins.com slash sample policy. Insurance plans are underwritten by either Independent American Insurance Company or United States Fire Insurance Company and produced by Spot Pet Insurance Services, LLC. This episode of Search Engine is also brought to you by Rosetta Stone.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
I'll tell you why I wanna learn a new language. I'm going to Amsterdam this week, and the only Dutch words I know are really, really horrific curse words that seem funny until you say them in front of Dutch people.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
A good way to learn non-offensive Dutch would be to use Rosetta Stone, the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app, one that truly immerses you in the language you wanna learn. Rosetta Stone is the trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Spanish, French, Italian, German, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Dutch, not just the curse words, Arabic and Polish. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. Search Engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. Back in 2020, when Jesse had first gotten a signal message from an unknown person, he hadn't known who they really were. He had guesses about their personality and motives, but this was mostly his imagination.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
And then, last fall, Jesse heard the news. The whistleblower had been caught and charged with federal crimes.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
The whistleblower turned out to be a man named Charles Littlejohn. In some of the news clips, you can see him. Brown hair, slim, he looks like a lot of professional young men you might pass on the street in D.C. A consultant who'd worked at Booz Allen Hamilton, Booz Allen had a big contract with the IRS. He'd been at the agency for two separate stints, collectively amounting to several years.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Littlejohn was arrested because investigators at the IRS were able to link his account to searches made in the IRS database. They had him, and he pleaded guilty. Journalism can be a good tool for understanding strangers. It works intermittently well. The legal system is another tool for sussing out human motive.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
That means with Discover, you could turn $150 cash back to 300. It pays to Discover. See terms at discover.com slash credit card. This episode of Search Engine is also brought to you by MUBI. MUBI is a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there's always something new to discover.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
There was no trial here since Littlejohn pleaded guilty, but in the sentencing, government prosecutors and Littlejohn's defense attorneys offered competing visions of the man. The portrait that emerges surprised me in some ways. In the prosecution's memo, you don't learn much about Littlejohn himself.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
The prosecutors describe the damage he did to the private lives of 7,500 Americans who, however we feel about their tax bills, were following the laws as they're written. The prosecution's memo highlights a clear pattern showing Littlejohn's actions were premeditated. He'd actually worked as a contractor at the IRS, left, and then specifically returned in 2017 with the goal of leaking tax returns.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
It wasn't an impulsive choice. The prosecution says Littlejohn believed he was above the law. In the defense memo, his legal team tells a fuller version of his story. As a kid, an excellent student, a member of the church. At college, UNC, a member of the campus social justice hub. In the defense's version, what Charles Littlejohn did was still wrong. This is a guilty plea after all.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
They explain how he was partly inspired by this book about wealthy tax avoidance called The Triumph of Injustice, which lays out in part the story you've heard in these episodes. But they also explain that a formative experience for Charles, Chaz they call him, was the death of his sister. She was a senior in high school when she was diagnosed with leukemia. She died in 2013, only 19 years old.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
He moved back home after that to help with his parents. Later on, he donated bone marrow and T cells to a person he didn't know from a donor list. The defense, I think, is trying to establish a pattern in Littlejohn's character that he's a person who, when he experiences an injustice, will go to greater than normal lengths to repair it, even if that means self-sacrifice.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
In the time preceding Littlejohn's choice to go back to the IRS and leak these documents, a close family friend had died. And in Little John's diary, which they quote from, he writes, life is so fragile and short, grieving for the years she will not see the friends and family that will carry her loss for the rest of their days. We should all try to live our lives as if we will die tomorrow.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
The next week, he contacts Jesse Isinger. He sends him the USB drive, filled with the tax returns of America's wealthiest and most powerful people. The articles are published, and later, Little John is arrested. Little John spoke for himself in a deposition last spring. He had already been sentenced. This deposition was part of a separate lawsuit against the IRS about these leaks.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
The person who comes across is not who I was expecting. He describes his time at the IRS as time at a job he really cared about. He sounds proud as he explains the details of this anti-fraud program he built that could detect scammers sending in fake returns and stealing refunds. He says they stopped a million of these cases with his fix.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
He describes reaching out to the New York Times, then describes reaching out to Jesse. He says he asked Jesse for his address to send the USB key, and that Jesse gave this stranger his address, but joked that little John wasn't allowed to show up at his house and murder him, which sounds a lot like the Jesse I know.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
One of the stranger details in the deposition, Littlejohn relays how all the data he leaked, he made another copy of it, this one for the government, for when he got caught, so the IRS would know which taxpayers to reach out to, so they wouldn't have to guess. Littlejohn, in my view, behaved like a person who seemed to know he'd likely be caught, who expected to face consequences.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
In the deposition, he says the thing the government got wrong about him is that he never thought he was above the law. This January, a judge decided that little John will turn 40 in prison. It's a five-year sentence. Jesse Isinger says that that is unusually heavy for a case like this.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
So let's get into the actual specifics. In this episode, we're going to dig into how it is that some billionaires end up paying zero dollars in federal income tax. Chapter one, one weird trick. I asked Jesse to walk me through, step by step, how the trick works. I gave him Jeff Bezos as my hypothetical billionaire who might want to not pay his federal income taxes.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
a funny mix of someone who is somewhat cynical about American democracy in its present state, but also the work you do and the way you do it, it's idealistic.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
So that's how the pessimist in you views the story. If you can find him, what about the optimist in you?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
So let me tell you, like, my dum-dum's view of what Jeff Bezos' life looks like. My dum-dum view of Jeff Bezos is like... He's working out. He works out a lot. He takes a lot of pictures with his beautiful partner. And then every two weeks...
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Surge Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Shruthi Pinamaneni, and is produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Fact-checking this week by Mary Mathis. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Armin Bazarian.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
The team that worked on the ProPublica series includes Jesse Isinger, Paul Keel, Jeff Ernsthausen, Justin Elliott, James Bandler, Trish Callahan, Robert Federici, Ellis Simonyi, Ash New, and Doris Burke. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Reese-Dennis. Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Perrello, and John Schmidt, and to the team at Odyssey, J.D.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Crowley, Rob Mirandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Kate Rose, Matt Casey, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schuff. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at UTA. Follow and listen to Zurg Engine for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
So obviously, anyone who is not taking income is not going to pay income tax. But most people need some form of income to live. What sets ultra-rich people apart is that they typically own at least one very expensive asset. For instance, a business they made or inherited. And there's actually a way to make money off of that asset without that money being taxed as income.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
With MUBI, each and every film is hand-selected, so you can explore the best of cinema, streaming anytime, anywhere. Out now from MUBI is The Substance, a Cannes prize-winning sensation, delirious, shocking, and absolutely unmissable.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Billions of dollars. Every person whose tax information was described in ProPublica's reporting was asked to comment. Jeff Bezos' reps declined, as did Larry Allison's reps. Musk responded to ProPublica's email with a lone question mark. After ProPublica responded with detailed questions, he did not reply.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
And then you don't get taxed on a loan.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
What Jesse's saying is that billionaires, instead of funding their lifestyles with salaries or by selling some of their valuable assets, billionaires can just borrow money against their assets at extremely low interest rates available only to them.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Those rates fluctuate with the market, but according to Bloomberg, billionaires have in the past been able to borrow money at less than 1% interest, money that is completely untaxed. and they can then use that money to buy whatever they want. Islands, basketball teams, social media companies.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
The government will tax billionaire assets when the billionaire dies through estate taxes, although you won't be shocked to know that the ultra-wealthy are pretty good at working around the estate tax as well. A USC professor named Ed McCaffrey coined the phrase for this, buy, borrow, die, which sounds like a confusing bumper sticker.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Demi Moore gives a career best performance as Elizabeth Sparkle, a pastor prime Hollywood A-lister that turns to a mysterious experimental drug in an attempt to recapture the glories of her youth. Sensational supporting turns from Margaret Qualley and Hollywood veteran Dennis Quaid as a repellent studio exec.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
But buy, borrow, die is the tactic that people like Elon Musk are employing. Avoiding paychecks, living off of borrowed money. Do you think his credit score, though, is high or low? Because he has a lot of debt.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
So that is the one weird trick billionaires have come up with to not pay income taxes. Don't have income, or have as little income as possible. It won't really work for me, and it won't really work for you, unless you're a billionaire. If you are a millionaire, and you're listening to Search Engine, I do want to say, We could actually use help funding the show.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
And I'm really sorry that Jesse was so rude about you and your friends. I actually barely know him. I happen to think you guys are great. I'm very proud of your ability to allocate capital efficiently. Anyway, where was I? Right. The loophole. What if we wanted to close it?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
What if instead of relying so much on the largesse of the middle class and the merely rich, what if we asked the ultra wealthy to get taxed like the rest of us? After the break, new ideas from unexpected quarters. This episode is brought to you in part by Grammarly. Your team spends over half their time writing, and we all know how that happens.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
One confusing email turns into 12 confused replies and a meeting to get aligned. Grammarly is a trusted AI writing partner that saves your company from miscommunication and all the wasted time and money that goes with it. So your team's words lead to results, and they can take on the next task, no matter where you're communicating.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Grammarly can help you find the right tone at work by personalizing your writing based on audience and context. You'll get peace of mind from Grammarly's enterprise-grade security and its business model that does not depend on selling your data. Four out of five professionals say Grammarly helps them gain buy-in and action through their communication.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
It helps improve the substance, not just the style of their writing, by identifying exactly what's missing. This will help you move faster by reducing unnecessary back and forth. Join 70,000 teams and 30 million people who trust Grammarly to get results on the first try. Go to grammarly.com slash enterprise to learn more. Grammarly, enterprise-ready AI.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Critically adored with reviews hailing the film as an instant body horror classic, Rolling Stone, must be seen to be believed, Variety, the best horror film of 2024, World of Real. Visit trythesubstance.com for showtimes and tickets. And to stream great films at home, you can try MUBI free for 30 days at MUBI.com slash search engine.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
This episode of Search Engine is also brought to you by Bombas. Fall is here, and everyone's getting back from vacation, headed back to school, and you know what that means. Yep, it's time to get back into Bombas, the amazingly comfortable socks, tees, and underwear that give back with every purchase. Bombas has the best socks for fall to start you off on the right foot, and the left one too.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
You're gonna want both wrapped in these absurdly comfortable socks. And these aren't just your regular old fall colors. They're actually playful and fun. And of course, the best thing about Bombas is that for every item you purchase, they donate one to someone experiencing housing insecurity. It seems small, but it adds up.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
In fact, with the help of Bombas loyalists all over the world, they've now donated over 140 million essential clothing items to people who needed them. That's a whole lot of good. So, ready to feel good and do good? Head over to bombas.com slash search and use code search for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash search. Code search at checkout. Welcome back to the show.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
When ProPublica published its series about the secret IRS files, Jesse initially felt like their reporting hadn't really had the impact he would have hoped for. But this past spring, he realized they'd reached at least one influential American.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
Chapter two, Joe Biden. Listening back now, it's a little strange that this clip is only from March. Biden, back then, still the Democratic candidate, and also sounding at the time fairly energetic as he addressed the nation.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
He stood at the lectern, Kamala Harris behind him, applauding his better lines. And later in the speech, he began to talk about taxes. As the crowd started to respond, you kind of felt like you were at a youth crew hardcore show.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
But then Biden went from this very standard fare, you know, the rich pay taxes, blah, blah, blah, and slipped in a way more radical idea. I'm going to play you the moment he does this, although I will warn you, the radicalness of it is somewhat well-concealed. But listen, maybe you'll catch it.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
So the radical part is the number that Biden just used. He said the billionaire tax rate is 8.2%. To be clear, the federal income tax rate for a billionaire is actually almost 40%. And Biden got a lot of pushback for saying 8.2. From The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, The New York Times fact checker accused him of bending the truth. But let me just explain to you how he got that number.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
That's MUBI.com slash search engine for a whole month of great cinema for free. I'm going to try The Substance even though I'm scared of scary movies. If you watch it, shoot me an email. Welcome to Search Engine. I'm PJ Vogt. No question too big, no question too small.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 2)
The logic Biden is using here is the exact same logic that you would find in the ProPublica series. Remember the buy, borrow, die technique? We know a billionaire like Elon Musk does not get a real salary. Instead, he pays himself a dollar and then owns a lot of Tesla stock. In most years, the stock gains value.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Welcome to Search Engine. I'm PJ Vogt. Each week on the show, we answer a question we have about the world. No question too big, no question too small. Our question this week, why is it so hard to tax billionaires? The answer may lie in a USB key leaked by a rogue IRS worker to a journalist. A USB key containing private tax returns for the very wealthiest people in America.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
With Glean, engineers ship code faster, sales reps better understand their customers, support agents resolve cases more accurately, and IT teams deflect questions and solve issues automatically. Hundreds of enterprises, including some of the world's leading technology, telecom, retail, manufacturing, and banking businesses, put AI to work with Glean.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
In Finland, Norway, and Sweden, citizens' tax returns are made public. In America, Wisconsinites can actually file public records requests and learn the state tax bill of any other citizen. Jesse's interest in this is not strictly about humiliating the ultra-rich. It's more this.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Jesse's suspicion is that if billionaires' taxes were transparent, we'd discover that a lot of their tax strategies that may be legal still don't pass the ethical smell test. And if we saw the loopholes they were using, we might be motivated to close those loopholes.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Of course, if it seems hard to imagine any of this actually happening, Jesse will tell you that as an enthusiastic student of the American tax code, the story of how we got this code, it's really the story of history and accident. It has changed a lot. It could change again.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
After the break, we will make you the eighth person in the world to find income taxes fascinating. The most spellbinding story you never knew you wanted to hear. I swear to God, how America even decided to have an income tax. This episode is also brought to you by Rocket Money.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
I tried out Rocket Money and I found out that I should never take a taxi cab again, and that I was signed up for a bunch of fringe streaming services I'd signed up to watch one thing on and forgotten about. So it saved me a bunch of money.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. See all of your subscriptions in one place and know exactly where your money is going. For any you don't want anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them with a few taps.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Visit glean.com slash search engine to see how Glean can help every employee at your company do their best work with AI. That's glean.com slash search engine to request a demo today. Glean, work AI for all. Am I supposed to put these on or do I not? It's totally up to you. If you feel more or less comfortable in either direction. Sort of ensconces me in like podcast.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
RocketMoney will even try to negotiate lower bills for you, sometimes by up to 20%. They automatically scan your bills to find opportunities to save, then you can ask them to negotiate. They'll deal with customer service. RocketMoney has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com. That's rocketmoney.com. Rocketmoney.com. Search Engine is brought to you by Discover Doublenomics. We discuss all things finance and economics here, but have you heard about Doublenomics? It's okay if you haven't because we like to keep you in the know and it's extremely niche.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Here's an example of Doublenomics. Discover automatically doubles the cash back earned on your credit card at the end of your first year with cash back match. That means with Discover, you could turn $150 cash back to 300. It pays to Discover. See terms at discover.com slash credit card. Chapter 3, Class War.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Every country needs to raise money from its citizens somehow, but there's a lot of ways that this could happen. You could have a sales tax. You could tax land with a property tax. In ancient Egypt, the pharaoh taxed the citizens' wheat harvests. These days, the tax we usually talk about is the income tax. But if your country has an income tax, you have to decide. Do you tax people?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Do you tax companies? Do you tax both? America, in the beginning, chose to not tax the income of either people or companies. When we first started experimenting with the radical left-wing idea of income taxes, Jesse says it was just a temporary reaction to an ongoing national crisis.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
So it... That means that basically, like, because everyone pays the same amount for a bottle of whiskey, whether you're wealthy or poor... If the government raises all of its money through a whiskey tax, everyone is paying the same amount of taxes no matter how much money they have.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
And did that—I mean, when people were making an argument against that, was that why they decided to shift it? Did they have those kinds of considerations?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
These arguments came to a head in the Civil War because the government badly needed money and tariff revenue, money from taxes on alcohol and tobacco, had dried up in wartime.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Jesse says the arguments wealthy people were making back then sounded a lot like the arguments you'd hear today. The government wasn't better at allocating capital than rich people were. Taxing the rich could discourage them from working more. Back then, the wealthy won these arguments.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
That federal income tax, passed during the Civil War, was rescinded a few years after the war ended, 1872, which began a 40-year fight to restore it.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
I'd been surprised to know that there was a long period of time when we didn't have an income tax, but I was even more surprised to learn that the modern income tax, it exists because of the political party most dedicated to loathing it, the Republicans.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Republicans in America are responsible for our federal income tax, and the story of how that happened is really the story of one of history's funniest own goals. Chapter four, an extremely expensive mistake.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
They're like not really like today's Republicans.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
I mean, I will say, as someone whose radical position that income taxes should exist, I can also imagine how hard it must have been When you grow up with the idea that you pay taxes, you pay taxes, but being like, hey, I've got a crazy idea. Next year, we're taking a percentage of your money away from you. It'd be a very easy political project to defeat.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
an accident that would occur amidst a heated political fight. There was an insurgency of populists, Bernie Sanders types who were devoted to working class, mostly rural Americans. One of those populist politicians actually does get an income tax bill passed in 1894, but just a year later, the Supreme Court rules that it's unconstitutional. These insane insurgents have overreached.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
I hadn't considered this. Our present moment where we have these ultra wealthy people whose power occasionally seems to exceed the power of the nations where they live, our moment had felt to me like something new, something outside of history. But we were pretty much here before once, the Gilded Age.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Back then, instead of people becoming unimaginably wealthy by building and owning the infrastructure of the internet, people would become unimaginably wealthy by building and owning the infrastructure of physical things. Railroads, steel, oil. The fact that we have an income tax at all is a reaction to the problems of this earlier era. Here's how it happened.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
The progressives and the populists who wanted an income tax had to face down a big opponent, a powerful Republican politician named Nelson Aldrich. Nelson Aldrich, very opposed to the idea of an income tax. He'd referred to the concept at one point as communistic, which, maybe a little bit.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
I was in the studio recently with a reporter who I know. I've had the pleasure of knowing a lot of grumpy idealists, but few as grumpily idealistic as him. Can you say your name and what you do?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
But Aldrich could tell Americans were boiling mad about inequality, and he knew he had to give this unwashed, angry mob something, some thrown bone. And he thought he saw a way out, a compromise. Because around the same time, there'd been a different proposal. Instead of taxing the incomes of individuals, how about we tax the incomes of companies? A corporate income tax.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
That measure, to Aldrich and his Republicans, seemed like a less radical solution.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
So there's still some public appetite for an income tax, and the Republicans, led by Nelson Aldrich, actually put forward a constitutional amendment supporting one. Their thinking is, the amendment's going to lose, it's badly mistimed, the states will vote it down, and this will just end the conversation about a federal income tax.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
The Republicans are feeling pretty good about this putney-swope maneuver.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
The passage of the 16th Amendment, the moment where we Americans made the federal income tax constitutional. The amendment reads, quote, Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes on incomes from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration."
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Jesse Isinger is the only person I've ever met who finds this amendment exciting. The way you talk about the passing of the 16th Amendment, it's like a movie you just walked out of. Like, why is this so... Like, listening to you, I feel like I'm listening to the Death Star explode. But it's like tax reform a long time ago. No, I'm just like, what is this...
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
And you, as part of your job, spend... I mean, other people spend more time thinking about the taxes rich people pay and don't pay, but those people tend to be rich people and the people they hire. You're, like, in third place, I think.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
How come this is... What about this moment speaks to you so deeply?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
I thought we were telling a story about taxes, and we still are. But at the heart of this, for Jesse, is one of the most vexing, important questions about American life right now. Why does it feel like nothing can change? And what would it take to break that feeling?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
After a short break, yes, there is a thicket of intractable problems in America right now, but we'll continue to tell you the story of this particular one, how things got so stuck, how they might get unstuck. That's after these ads. This episode of Search Engine is also brought to you by Mubi. MUBI is a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there's always something new to discover. With MUBI, each and every film is hand-selected, so you can explore the best of cinema, streaming anytime, anywhere. Out now from MUBI is The Substance, a Cannes prize-winning sensation, delirious, shocking, and absolutely unmissable.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Demi Moore gives a career best performance as Elizabeth Sparkle, a pastor prime Hollywood A-lister that turns to a mysterious experimental drug in an attempt to recapture the glories of her youth. Sensational supporting turns from Margaret Qualley and Hollywood veteran Dennis Quaid as a repellent studio exec.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Critically adored with reviews hailing the film as an instant body horror classic, Rolling Stone, must be seen to be believed, Variety, the best horror film of 2024, World of Real. Visit trythesubstance.com for showtimes and tickets. And to stream great films at home, you can try MUBI free for 30 days at MUBI.com slash search engine.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
That's M-U-B-I.com slash search engine for a whole month of great cinema for free. I'm going to try The Substance even though I'm scared of scary movies. If you watch it, shoot me an email. This episode of Search Engine is also brought to you by Rosetta Stone. I'll tell you why I wanna learn a new language.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
I'm going to Amsterdam this week, and the only Dutch words I know are really, really horrific curse words that seem funny until you say them in front of Dutch people. A good way to learn non-offensive Dutch would be to use Rosetta Stone, the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app, one that truly immerses you in the language you wanna learn.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Rosetta Stone is the trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered. Spanish, French, Italian, German, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Dutch, not just the curse words, Arabic and Polish. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. Search Engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine. That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. This episode of Search Engine is also brought to you by Quince. Do you ever open your closet and think, why did I buy that? I certainly do.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
But since shopping with Quince, I see fewer misses and more hits I'll be wearing season after season. Quince has all the seasonal must-haves, like 100% European linen shirts from $30, performance polos, and versatile activewear. The best part, all Quince items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices, along with premium fabrics and finishes. I recently purchased a performance polo from Quince. I am not a very high performance individual, but I think the polo looks nice.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
You can fill your closet with timeless pieces you'll be wearing for summers to come with Quince. Go to quince.com slash search engine for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash search engine to get free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash search engine. Welcome back to the show.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Reporter Jesse Isinger just told us the story of the invention of the federal income tax. And that story ended on a feeling that I think most people don't actually have, although hopefully you were too swept up in the magic of storytelling to notice. We were celebrating the federal income tax as a kind of miracle, a miracle. Can we acknowledge most people do not feel that way?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Our hatred of our tax code is one of the few things most Americans actually agree on. We like taxes like we like getting a paper cut on a sunburned, stubbed toe. But the income tax, back when I was first born, was a very different animal. In the beginning, it was relatively simple, and it described a very modest tax on income applied only to the wealthiest Americans.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Even for them, tax rates between 1% and 7%. But then, 1917, we enter World War I, the government needs a lot more money, and so those rates are immediately jacked on the ultra-wealthy, way, way up, as high as 77%. Which brings us to Chapter 5. Chapter 5. The rich try to get their money back. So I guess the thing I'm trying to understand, like, why does the tax code be getting more complicated?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Like, in my head, in 1913, the tax code is like a couple pieces of paper in a folder. And then at some point, it is a phone book. And I'm trying to watch it get thicker, I guess.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Elon Musk, Taylor Swift, Jeff Bezos. The story of that leak and the question it answered after these ads.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Molly Mitchell Moore. She's a professor of history at Washington and Lee University. She is the person you go to if you want to talk, for some reason, about the history of the income tax. She told me the story of how the rich began to fight back.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Andrew Mellon, Pittsburgh banker with eyebrows as glorious as his mustache, his fortune rumored at over half a billion dollars, considered quite a bit of money in those days. This half billionaire was given the job of treasury secretary, a wealthy person in charge of deciding how much he and his wealthy friends should pay the federal government.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Just as a reminder, in the last chapter we learned about this, but basically there's two types of tax systems. Regressive, where everyone pays the same dollar amount, rich or poor, the sales tax on a bottle of whiskey, progressive. And then there's progressive, where people pay a percentage based on their wealth. In those systems, rich people pay more. Our new income tax was progressive.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
The person in charge of it, Andrew Mellon, did not like that.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
So just to make sure I understand, Andrew Mellon was working for the government. And one way you could understand what he was doing was intentionally making the tax code more complicated as a way of giving the wealthy people who presumably he knew and had dinner parties with and was, in fact, one of them, some outs. Like, it's like, you don't like school. Here's a big stack of excuses.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
All of these shenanigans were happening behind closed doors. And the average American would not have been thinking about any of this. Because remember, for the normal, non-railroad-owning American, there was no income tax. But all of this was about to change.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Franklin Delano Roosevelt takes power. Very much the opposite of Andrew Mellon. No mustache, normal-sized eyebrows. In FDR's cabinet, Cordell Hall, the original hero of the income tax. FDR wanted to heavily tax the rich, but also tax everybody else.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
And how do people feel about that at the time? Because there are, the Nazis are there.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
And that was kind of extraordinary. It's like the first time that most Americans are sitting down and writing a huge check to the government.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
It fell into Jesse's lap because of a stranger who would find him on the internet. A stranger, presumably, who was inspired to reach out to him because of this series Jesse and his colleague at ProPublica, Paul Keel, had reported back in 2018. It was called Gutting the IRS, Who Wins When a Crucial Agency is Defunded?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Like, I'd wanted to know how the U.S. government had convinced Americans to get on board with this idea that we'd all send in a check every year. And hearing how it actually worked only made it seem crazier. During my grandfather's lifetime, Americans were instructed, partly via our pop culture, that we'd be doing something new now. We'd all now contribute to the federal government's GoFundMe.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Donald Duck said we have to in order to stop the Nazis, and we're going to do it. Not just this year, but forever. That we agreed to this really is a civic miracle.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
And so in that moment, people are happy to do it because there's this existential threat because some of people's anger and anxiety about elites in this country has temporarily been becalmed by just historical events. After the war, what happens after the war?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
That tax system really fuels the modern federal government. It's what pays for everything, schools, roads, wars, astronauts, everything the government does that you like, everything the government does that you don't like. That tax code also balloons and becomes, weirdly, a place where we have arguments without quite having arguments.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Rich people's arguments about holding onto their money get inscribed into bizarre little subsections. But also, government subsidies, which might be too controversial as straight cash payments, get described instead in tax credits, mortgage interest credits, childcare credits.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
It's like the tax code is this very hard to understand, intentionally boring codex in which we conduct some of our loudest disagreements. But while we're having these disputes, something really fundamental is about to change, something most of us won't actually notice. The billionaires are about to build themselves an escape pod. Chapter seven, the rewiring of American capitalism.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
So in the middle of the last century, in Mad Men times, I was surprised to learn that rich people once had enormous tax bills. I asked Jesse Isinger about this era. So 1950s, which is a moment where we still have an income tax that seems to function more the way you would think it's supposed to. Like, what is tax day in the life of... an American CEO of a successful company in the 1950s.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
But so they would have, like, if I were the head of GM in the 1950s, I actually would have gotten an enormous paycheck every two weeks.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
And then the government, unlike today, like, the tax rates were much higher, and so not all of my money, but... the part of my income that was much higher than the worker's income would be taxed at a much higher rate.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
In the 1970s, as search engine listeners, and only search engine listeners now, there was a massive inflation crisis that comes with both a recession and a real loss of trust by Americans in their government because of inflation, because of lots of other things. That inflationary crisis ends in the 1980s with Ronald Reagan, who presides over a series of massive tax cuts in 81.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
And when you say financialization, what do you mean?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Right. It's like bureaucracy, which is already very sexy. Nothing happening, which gets people to the movie theater. And then nothing happening is about taxes.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
So in the 1980s, rich Americans are making more of their money, not through their salaries, but through stock options, which has a weird side effect on taxation. Normal salaries, like paychecks, we know are taxed as income. But if you own a stock and it goes up in value, that is not taxed unless you sell it.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
The feeling many of us have these days that inequality is high, that the wealthy have become unfathomably rich, it begins here, our new gilded era, where once again we have barons who sometimes live beyond or above the state. These billionaires possess a kind of wealth our tax system often just doesn't know what to do with.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Sometimes it's like their money is invisible to the IRS, not because a crime is being committed, but because by design or accident, their money is money the government really does not know how to see. Billionaires powerful enough to reshape society, but who, every April, magically resemble paupers in the eyes of our government.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
In our next episode, we will tell you a pretty bulletproof method for legally hiding your money from the federal government. If you're a billionaire, this next episode of Search Engine might help you finally afford a second vacation home for your personal trainer.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
If you're not a billionaire, you can listen to the story of how they figured out an enormously profitable loophole and hear about what it would mean to close it. That story is in our next episode, which is out right now.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Chapter one, The Mysterious Whistleblower. In the fall of 2020, nearly two years after that IRS series was published, the rogue leaker makes contact.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
How often do you get that? I'll just tell you, as, like, a podcaster who tries to figure out, like, why monkeys at the zoo are sad, I don't get a lot of, like... People aren't like, I got something to give you very often. Do you get that a lot?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
And the person says... Like, this person's using this language, like, the plan is going to be accurate.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Someone's going to say like, hey, here's Donald Trump's tax returns and it's just something they've cooked up on Photoshop.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
The whistleblower had gone back over 15 years, grabbing the tax returns for thousands of the wealthiest Americans and dumped them into this file. Forbes every year publishes their Forbes 400 list, guessing at the richest Americans and their net worth. But this was the real thing, government certified. In practice, what this looked like was fields and fields of data, spreadsheets on spreadsheets.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
And so how do you begin to understand what you've been given?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
This episode of Search Engine is also brought to you by Glean. AI is constantly wowing us in our lives as consumers, but if you think about it, has it really made your life better at work? AI has the potential to help everyone be more efficient at work, but only if it deeply understands the data, people, processes, and context specific to your work.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
It wasn't a hoax. And for Jesse to say this was the best day of his career means something. He's been an investigative reporter for decades. He's won a Pulitzer. He is someone who has dedicated his life to understanding how the wealthy and powerful shape our society. But he'd never seen wealth this unmasked. Chapter two, The Secret Files.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
And so as you're decoding the information you have, is it the billionaires that I've heard of? Is it like Jeff Bezos, Warren Buffett? Are you just looking at their tax information?
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
It's an extraordinary amount of private information for anyone to possess. Jesse says the team at ProPublica had to think carefully about how to proceed. There were ethical questions to consider, like which parts of this data dump were actually newsworthy. But the story told by the tax returns was a story of a lot of behavior that seemed pretty astonishing.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
Everyone's had the experience where a wealthy person explains to you how actually they're not really that wealthy. But seeing these documents, it was like watching the wealthiest people in America do that to the U.S. government's tax collectors.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
For example, Jeff Bezos, in a year where his net worth was $18 billion, was paying so little in federal taxes that he looked, to the IRS's eyes, like a poor person. Somehow he both qualified for and took advantage of a government tax credit for child care that's actually designed to lower child poverty in this country. Our government sent Jeff Bezos a check for $4,000 to take care of his kids.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
ProPublica reached out to Bezos' representatives, who declined to receive detailed questions about the reporting. Another example, Warren Buffett. In the data, they could see that one year, Buffett's wealth had grown by over $24 billion and that he'd paid about $23 million in taxes.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
That's exactly what Glean's Work AI platform does. Glean starts by connecting and understanding all your company data across Slack, Teams, email, Jira, ServiceNow, or other apps you use every day. Glean's powerful AI assistant helps you find answers, generate content, and automate work.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
That works out to one-tenth of 1%, the equivalent of a person whose net worth increases by $100,000 in a year paying $100 in taxes. Buffett, to his credit, one of the few billionaires who responded to ProPublica.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
In an extended letter, he pointed out that his tax returns have long been available publicly and said that he believes his money is more useful if it goes to charity rather than, quote, to slightly reduce an ever-increasing U.S. debt. which honestly is probably the way a lot of people feel, not just billionaires. Being a billionaire, I imagine, has its upsides, but it has its downsides too.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
One is that when you say it has downsides, everybody starts laughing at you. The other is that many people do not like you and do not think you should exist. Only 15% of Americans polled by Pew said it was a good thing for the country that some people have more than a billion dollars. I am perverse and tend to feel a little bit of curiosity for anyone everyone kind of hates.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
I wanted to ask Jesse about this decision he'd made to pretty severely violate the privacy of the ultra-wealthy, even if it may have been for the greater good. I also... to play billionaire's advocate. I understand why- They need all the help they can get. Obviously, and particularly for me. I understand the idea that in a world where there isn't full transparency, no one wants to go first.
Search Engine
Why is it so hard to tax billionaires? (Part 1)
I understand the feeling of like, Let's all be naked or let's nobody be naked, but I don't want to be one of the only naked people. I get... In that way, I will defend the billionaires.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Surge Engine is brought to you by ShipStation. These days, it feels like every device we use is getting smarter and more connected. We have smartwatches. We have Wi-Fi enabled LED light bulbs. The world keeps getting smarter. Your e-commerce business should too.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
With Microsoft and others like him on board, Anom begins to dominate the international crime world, not just the Australian market. Joseph says that criminal networks these days are much more multinational than they once were, with cooperation between a drug cartel in one country and a distributor in another being fairly common.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
But for this global village of lawbreakers to talk, they needed a secure way to do it.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Akanyek, the muscly mastermind, and Microsoft, his nerdy underling, may have been the Ryan Reynoldses of Anom, but they were not the masterminds who had created it. The mastermind was actually an associate of theirs, a man known as Afku. Where did Afku get all the capital to start this? Probably would have been a good question to ask. But here's what people did know about Afku.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Afku was a longtime denizen of the criminal phone world. He'd actually even been involved for a bit in Anam's more primitive predecessor, Phantom Secure. And now, AFKU was moving the whole industry forward. As the months went on, Anam, just like a legit tech company, kept adding more features. Sometimes at the specific request of its biggest power user, Microsoft.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
The veterans who I learned from loved to talk about how just a few years before, interviews were still being recorded onto actual physical tape. And they'd tell me how they used to edit that tape by cutting it with a razor blade and sticky taping it back together. It had all been so different, so much less efficient, so recently. They were still marveling at it.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
So the developers would do what Microsoft asked. Put in a new voice feature, delete it when he decided it was a bad idea. Microsoft remained totally enamored with this new gadget. It gave him a criminal superpower, most of the time anyway. In December 2020, Microsoft began to hit a biblical patch of bad luck.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
With his lab destroyed, Microsoft is now down bad financially, which means he has to do more risky jobs in order to make his money back.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
For me, a few years later, the equivalent change was auto-transcriptions. The weeks of my life spent typing up transcripts of other people's interviews, or my own, just gone. And now I was the one telling the young producers about how it used to be. Every industry has these moments. Although technological change, as we know, is not always that good.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
And then, one summer day, a law enforcement agent on the other side of the world, in San Diego of all places, holds a surprise press conference. Good morning.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
This U.S. attorney, looking quite pleased, stands at a podium in a municipal law enforcement press room. Yellow-looking veneer wood, bold blue curtains. Behind him, several other law enforcement officers, each wearing a fabric COVID mask. It's 2021. They're here to announce the many arrests that are being made in the US and simultaneously in other countries.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
So the phone company for criminals was being run by a United States law enforcement agency, by the FBI.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Oops. After a short break, how the FBI came to start a criminal phone company preferred by the discerning international drug smuggler, and what the feds found on history's most ambitious wiretap. Search Engine is brought to you by Rosetta Stone. There's a lot of reasons to learn a new language. One of my favorites, cognitive benefits, improved brain function. My brain has not been very good.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Somebody recently told me one of these stories where a small tech breakthrough opened the door to innovations in the fields of professional violence and corruption.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Studies have shown that learning a new language can improve memory, problem solving skills, and even delay the onset of dementia. It might be too late for me, but it's not too late for you. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app. It truly immerses you in the language you want to learn.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Rosetta Stone has been a trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered. Lifetime membership has all 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. Search Engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Whether you're looking for incredible efficiency or your business has outgrown your old shipping solutions, ShipStation helps you take the next step. ShipStation's features are a game changer for your business. You can easily automate shipping tasks and manage orders from one simple dashboard. All your automations will allow smooth printing shipping labels at the click of a button.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine. That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. Search Engine is brought to you by Fresh Direct. I really like Fresh Direct.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
When I go to the grocery store, for some reason, my brain goes into like screensaver mode and it takes me forever and I get lost and I come back with half of the things I actually need. So I end up saving hours a week just using Fresh Direct. Fresh Direct is farm to kitchen, food sourced directly from farmers, fishermen, and ranchers and delivered straight to your door.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Because of this, I'm paying for the quality of food rather than just paying someone to go to a store for me. FreshDirect says they are seven days fresher than the grocery store. And honestly, you can tell the difference. The convenience is unbeatable. You can grocery shop from your office or your couch whenever you want. The most recent thing I ordered from FreshDirect was a fennel bulb.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
I mean, I had other stuff too, but the fennel was really good. For over 20 years, Fresh Direct has been delivering the freshest fruits, vegetables, and meats to the tri-state area. Don't take my word for it. Try to believe it with $50 off your first order. Go to freshdirect.com and use code SEARCHENGINE. That's freshdirect.com, code SEARCHENGINE, for new customers to save $50 on their first order.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Terms and restrictions apply. See site for details. Welcome back to the show. Anam, the phone company used almost exclusively by criminals, designed exclusively for criminals, was a multi-year, very expensive FBI project. The bureau cooperated with law enforcement in countries across the world. This was unprecedented.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
In the past, the FBI had used informants, but the idea that the FBI would run, from the beginning, a company for criminals... This was audacious. And they hadn't just started a company. They'd done it and then managed to successfully compete with the other real criminal phone companies. Companies like EncroChat or Sky that were actually being run for the benefit of criminals.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
So tell me the story from the FBI's perspective. Like, how did the FBI come to be running, you know, the criminal iPhone company?
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
You're going to get book tour fever. This is Joseph Cox. He just published a book called Dark Wire. Joseph's a tech reporter, but he's not one of the normal ones. His work won't tell you how many more camera lenses to expect on the next iPhone. He does not dissect the latest outrageous tweet from Elon Musk. His interests lie elsewhere. And what's your relationship with the criminal underworld?
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Remember, this was the same company that we'd heard the Australian news report about, the precursor to Anon. They'd sold tens of thousands of encrypted phones before being taken down by American law enforcement.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
The main reason being that the founder of Phantom Secure, Vincent Ramos, had initially promised to cooperate with the FBI, to actually let them hack into his unhackable network and trace the criminals using it. But at the last minute, he changed his mind and tried to flee instead. He was too scared of reprisals from former customers. which for a moment had left the FBI at a dead end.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Until they noticed another character in the mix. Afgu. Remember Afgu? Before Inam, he'd actually worked with Phantom Secure, and he'd had plans to start his own criminal phone network. But now that Afgu saw the feds had arrested the head of Phantom Secure, he got scared. Were they going to roll him up, too?
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
For the FBI, the size of this opportunity was staggering. Typically, when someone in an organized crime group flips, the best-case scenario is that the informant might lead you to the head of the group they belong to. But here, entire networks could be exposed. Akon Iyik, the Australian drug kingpin, for instance. You could get him. You could get his underlings.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
But his phone might also connect you to the head of the Comancheros, a totally different criminal organization. He was tight with them. If you controlled the phones, if you controlled them entirely, you might wrap up entire criminal social networks.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
So then what does it look like, AFKU and the FBI building a phone network for criminals? What's the process?
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
American law enforcement found themselves in a strange predicament. The FBI employs a lot of smart people, but presumably few who know how to program a new smartphone. So now they were outsourcing the work to these coders who were in the dark about the actual mission.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
And so these remote coders who are building this, I mean, it's funny, it's like one of those, the Russian nesting dolls, because theoretically the company is saying they're a phone company, but they're really a phone company for criminals, but they're really a phone company to catch criminals. Who do these coders think they're working for and what do they think they're making?
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
And whose idea is this? Like, who has the audacious idea to try this?
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
It's easy to imagine the downsides of a plan like this. Law enforcement running a bespoke phone network. A Verizon, but for people who sell heroin by the shipping container and murder the people who wrong them. The moral hazards were staggering. And the FBI's attempt to negotiate all that, it actually helps explain what was happening with a criminal like Microsoft.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Why his deals kept getting confounded, even though he was never quite arrested. The feds were invisibly managing the lives of many Microsofts, all the while getting a clearer, more high-res view into the modern crime world than perhaps anyone had ever glimpsed. One of the big things they learned was just the sheer scale of the underworld.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Before Anam, Europol's best estimate was that the value of proceeds of crime in the EU was something like, in 2016, $122 billion. That estimate turned out to be quite low.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
So it's both the illegal world is bigger than we realized and there's more corruption than we thought. Yeah.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
For you as a person moving through the world, what is it like spending that much time inside the minds of people for whom, you know, murdering people is normal and something that they text about?
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
And what, sorry, several questions. One is, what is the emoji for an assassination? Or is it more like, good job killing him, smiley face?
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
But from a law enforcement perspective, like, if you have Microsoft ordering deaths on your phone network, aren't you—don't you need to do something about that? Yeah.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
After the break, the trap does close shut. The end of Operation Trojan Shield and a very bad day for some enthusiastic phone recommenders. Let's after some ads. Search Engine is brought to you by Shopify.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
When you think about businesses whose sales are rocketing, like Feastables by Mr. Beast, or Thrive Cosmetics, or Silicon Valley's weekend uniform supplier, Cotopaxi, sure, you think about an innovative product, but an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business, making selling, and for shoppers, buying, simple. For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Nobody does selling better than Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling, on the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Mr. Beast uses.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash S-E-N-G, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash S-E-N-G to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com slash S-E-N-G. Search Engine is brought to you by Seed. Whether you're off to the pool, hiking, or traveling this summer, you're bringing your microbiome with you too.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Joseph's internet is one where ingenious criminals are constantly inventing apps and gadgets. sometimes giving themselves a significant edge against the cops they play cat and mouse with. But in all his years covering this world, Nothing he'd seen prepared him for the story of this one new kind of criminal smartphone. It had transformed the underworld so quickly and so thoroughly.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
The 38 trillion bacteria that live in and on you, especially your gut, are essential to whole body health. Seed's DS01 Daily Synbiotic benefits your gut, skin, and heart health in just two capsules a day. Your body is an ecosystem, and great whole body health starts in the gut.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Your gut is a central hub for various pathways through the body, and a healthy gut microbiome means benefits for digestion, skin health, heart health, your immune system, and much more. With clinical trials and breakthrough research published in top scientific journals, Seed's probiotic research and development makes DS01 a product you know you can trust.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Support your gut this summer with Seed's DS01 Daily Symbiotic. Go to seed.com slash search and use code 25search to get 25% off your first month. That's 25% off your first month of Seed's DS01 Daily Symbiotic at seed.com slash search, code 25search. Surge Engine is brought to you by AutoTrader. If you're driving right now, look around. See all those cars?
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
You can find them on AutoTrader because they have the largest selection of new cars, used cars, electric cars, even flying cars. Okay, no flying cars yet. But as soon as those get invented, they'll be on AutoTrader. Not only can you find that car you just saw, you can find it at a price personalized to you with Kelley Bluebook MyWallet on AutoTrader.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
From credit scores to down payments to interest rates, we all know that car buying requires a lot of math. Enter MyWallet on AutoTrader, a tool that shows you exactly how much you'll pay each month for your car based on your unique info, so you never have to do car math again.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
So whether you're into timeless classics or the latest trends, did someone say solar-powered, eco-friendly, self-driving car? Or whether you just want something practical with no surprise costs, if you see a car you like, find it on AutoTrader. See it, find it, AutoTrader. Welcome back to the show.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Of all the criminals caught in Anam's dragnet, the one Joseph found most fascinating was Microsoft, the drug dealer of all trades who was one of Anam's biggest evangelists, accidentally leading so many of his friends and associates directly into the FBI's trap.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
In your reporting, you focus on Microsoft, but the sense I got is that the authorities were also focusing on Microsoft, that of all the sort of dots on the map that they could pay attention to, it almost, I got the sense that at some point they were almost like playing God with him and like Old Testament God with him in a really unusual way.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
And in the aftermath of that transformation, Joseph feels sure we are living in a new world, one whose implications he thinks most of us have not yet begun to grapple with. But I'm getting ahead of myself. The story begins in a country with a much more active criminal underworld than I had ever known. Australia.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
And the idea is that the more they fuck with him, the more he has to reach out to other people to do more business with. And he's like a barium that is going through this criminal network and they're going to see more and more of it.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
It's just funny, like, I've had spells in my life where I felt like something beyond me was confounding every, like every time I needed luck to work out, it didn't. But it's never been the case that there was actually someone pulling the strings to mess with me. It's just strange to think that once for someone that was actually the case.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
So Microsoft, how does Microsoft find out? Does he find out from the press conference? Like, at what point does he finally realize, like, oh, the thing everyone was saying to me was in fact true?
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
As criminals all over the world were arrested, suspicions grew. But nobody knew for sure that Anam was an FBI operation until that gleeful San Diego press conference with the U.S. attorney, announcing the program's success and finally closing the trap. According to Joseph, part of the FBI's calculation for ending the operation, weirdly, had just been due to the overwhelming success of Anam.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Towards the end, so many criminals were on the network, sending so many millions of texts, that for the government, just monitoring them and preventing murders was beginning to require too much manpower. So, after about three years of running Anam, that's why the FBI decided to shut it down. By the time of that press conference announcing the trap, over 800 arrests had been made.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
But I was surprised to learn that Microsoft and his buddy, Hakan Ayyek, were not among them. Despite being high-value targets, they'd slip the net, at least at first. Half a year after the big bust, Joseph Cox is tooling around online, and he sees Hakan Ayik, now an international fugitive, behaving on the internet in an astonishingly brazen way.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Wait, he's an international fugitive, he's the most wanted person from Australia, and he's just saying, like, this donor kebab place rocks?
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Is it risky behavior? Yes. But who among us has not had an especially good meal and felt like they just had to share their feelings with the internet? Consequences be damned.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Turkish police video of these raids included not just body cam footage, but also cinematic drone shots and Hollywood scoring. You see the cops bang on Ayak's door, and then they're in his apartment. He's on his knees, shirtless, hands cuffed behind his back, surrounded by masked Turkish cops. They pick up 36 other Hasan Ayik associates, including Microsoft.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
This ABC News report is from about a decade ago. And it's about a trend that had swept through the criminal underworld. Encrypted mobile phone companies. The report explained how these phones worked by focusing on one company, popular at the time, called Phantom Secure.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
And so what is the fallout from all of this? What in the world after this operation has happened, has been revealed? What is the world we are now living in? Well, the drug trade continues.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Remember, this had been one of the FBI's goals, to delegitimize the encrypted phones made specifically for criminals as a piece of technology. To shut down not just one tech company, but an entire category of technology itself. The way Google Glass killed iGlass computers for a decade, or the way that crashing flying cars set those vehicles back for quite some time.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
And in this, law enforcement was successful. But Joseph says that success has created a new problem. Because now, some criminals who want privacy have learned that they're better off using the same tools everyone else does, encrypted messaging apps like Signal.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Which means if the FBI runs another similar sting operation, they might be scraping up messages not just from the Microsofts of the world, but from you, or from people you know. Joseph believes we need to decide if that's a trade-off we're comfortable with.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
I found reading your book, it confounded some of the ideas I'd walked into it with, which is to say, as a journalist, I feel like it wouldn't be terribly surprising for me to say, like, my biases are towards privacy. And obviously, you know, the same encryption technology that is going to be used by political dissidents is going to be used by people doing all sorts of terrible things.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
And my feeling tends to be that privacy is worth it. Reading this particular story where it's a phone company used by almost exclusively criminals and where the crimes that are being documented are incredibly violent, incredibly heinous, I was very much rooting for the surveillance state in a way that I don't always do. First of all, I'm just curious how you felt. Did you feel that way?
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Because I feel like you are also a privacy-minded person, but this is at least one case where I feel like perhaps... I don't know, you can see the FBI side of things.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
I don't traffic cocaine. The podcast industry is not doing that badly. I mean, we'll see. But like, so I don't have to worry because if all the cocaine traffickers are on one app, yeah, the FBI can listen in. It really is not a big deal. Signal, which everyone I know uses as just a communications platform, one of the things it offers is that it's encrypted.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
But like, I have journalist friends who just like the idea of an encrypted app. I have people who use Signal because people they know use Signal. You know, the Microsofts of their life came and said, like, just use this thing, it's cool. I know people who participate as customers in illicit drug markets and use Signal.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
When I first got it, everybody I knew was a journalist or a low-level lawbreaker. And when I saw someone on it, I was like, oh, which one are they? Maybe they're both. At this point, a lot of people are on it. And so... if the FBI monitored every single signal message and then they chose what to discard, yeah, I would feel like my privacy was being compromised.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
And what you're saying is now that this has happened with Anam, the next frontier are these places where criminals and non-criminals And so we kind of have to decide. And you're saying your proposal would be rather than letting law enforcement eavesdrop on an entire network, why don't we make it so that law enforcement has to go to the phone?
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
So looking at the ad, it looks like it's for fancy rich dudes who care about privacy. Who is this phone actually for?
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
And if they think that I'm a cocaine trafficker, they have to get into my phone rather than going to the Signal Foundation. Right.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
You'll save thousands on shipping with industry-leading carrier discounts. Lead your business into the future with technology built to save you from extra costs and headaches. Lead your e-commerce business into a smarter future with the shipping software that delivers. Switch to ShipStation today. Go to ShipStation.com and use code SEARCH to sign up for your free 60-day trial.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
For the search engine listener who is also a criminal, what is the perfect phone for a criminal to use in 2024?
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
So, if you're a search engine listener who wants privacy, for any reason, no judgments here, you criminal freaks, your question has been answered. Joseph, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Joseph Cox. He's the co-founder of the independent website 404 Media, one of my favorite homes for tech reporting online. His very wonderful book about Anam is called Darkwire. Go read it.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
There's a lot more story than we were able to get into here. Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Shruthi Pinnamaneni. And it's produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Fact-tracking this week by Mary Mathis. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Armin Bizarrian.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Reese-Dennis. Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Perrello, and John Schmidt. And to the team at Odyssey, J.D. Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchison, Matt Casey, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schaaf. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at UTA.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
If you'd like to support the show and get access to our incognito mode feed with no ads, no reruns and bonus episodes, head to searchengine.show. You can also submit questions for us there, whether you're a paid subscriber or not. Follow and listen to Search Engine for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. We'll see you September 6th.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Why did the gangs like phantom secure? Like, what was it about this product that they were drawn to?
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Phantom Secure ran for nearly a decade, selling tens of thousands of phones, mostly to criminals. It was shut down finally in 2018 when the FBI tricked its Canadian CEO into visiting the U.S. where he was arrested. But with Phantom Secure gone, a much more unusual competitor took its place.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
A new encrypted phone company, also catering to criminals, but with much more audacious visionaries behind it. Startup founders with a plan unlike anything anyone had ever tried to pull off. The name of this new company? Anom.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
That's ShipStation.com, code SEARCH. Whatever you do for work, if you do it long enough, you'll probably experience a moment where a new piece of technology shows up and overnight just changes your job, even in my field. When I started out in radio before the podcast boom, the big semi-recent invention everyone was still talking about was just editing audio on computers.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Anam's promise was that not only were they on your side, unlike their competition, they'd also give you a great phone. A nice camera with tons of megapixels. You could send emojis. This turned out to be a winning combination. Criminals, like everybody else, are human. Suckers for the latest and greatest in new doodads.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
So it's both secure and like all the fun, exciting advances in smartphones that we've all gotten completely used to and don't actually feel fun and exciting, but it's like a criminally secure phone with features.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Of course, while it's great to have a product with killer features, a phone can't sell itself. Anom, like any startup, needed to acquire customers, and it would use the same marketing strategy deployed by seemingly every online brand in the 2020s. influencer marketing. The influencers in this case, high-level criminals with reputations for excellence in lawbreaking.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
The way Anam worked, if a criminal sold a phone to their felonious friend, they got a significant commission. It was a way to grow the network, while at the same time ensuring the only people on Anam had been vetted by a fellow criminal.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
So unlike, like, if I want to buy an iPhone, I'll go to the Apple store. If I want to get an Anom phone, I would have to know someone through my existing criminal networks, and they're selling it. It's sort of like Girl Scout cookies, right?
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Hakan Ayyik is a very famous criminal in Australia. He's not the creator of Anam, we'll get to that later, but he's its most well-known user, an early adopter responsible for much of its success. He was even a system administrator on the network.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
You see pictures of Hakan Ayik, presumably from his own social media. Selfies. He's a jock, huge tattoo-covered chest, buzz cut, looks a little bit like Joe Rogan. Ayik in Australia had managed to pull something off that was pretty exceptional. He wasn't just running a single criminal organization, he was running a criminal network.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
uniting different gangs in different countries to come together to make money.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Hakaniak had been a devout user of Phantom Secure, and when it was shut down, he was very enthusiastic about its new successor.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
It's sort of like in my world, Ryan Reynolds is a spokesperson for Mint Mobile, the cell phone company. And I think he has shares in the company, but he makes a lot of money being like an influencer who says like, I'm Ryan Reynolds. You love my films. You should use my phone.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
In the criminal world, this guy Ayik, he's saying like, hey, I love selling large quantities of cocaine and I'm never arrested. Be like me. Like he's like a criminal influencer selling these phones.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
If Hakan Ayik was the phone's most famous user, his underling, Microsoft, perhaps outmatched Ayik in his enthusiasm for the phone. You can see Microsoft in the wanted photos, later distributed by the U.S. State Department. He looks, honestly, quite nerdy. Not a bodybuilder like Hakan, more like an IT guy. A heavyset Swedish national with scraggly facial hair. So tell me more about Microsoft.
Search Engine
What's the best phone to do crimes on?
Like, what is he using his phone for? Like, he's selling phones, he's getting a commission on selling phones, he's asking the people he works with to sell phones. What crimes is he using the phones to commit?
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Surge Engine is sponsored by Viore. Viore is a new perspective on performance apparel. It's perfect if you're sick and tired of traditional old workout gear. Everything is designed to work out in, but it doesn't feel or look like it. It's extremely comfortable. You'll want to wear it all the time. I promise you it is more comfortable than whatever you're wearing right now.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
I can't imagine studying anything that much.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
And what were you getting out of it? Like as an 18-year-old you, like what is happening in your mind while you're doing that?
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
That makes sense. So it's, like, it's very intellectually stimulating, and it's, like, the Netflix algorithm of experiences would be, like, four fans of debate club and arguing.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
I understood the concepts of God and Jesus, but I remember having a lot of questions about the Holy Ghost, this character whose backstory the teachers never seemed to want to fill in. But I believed in God. I prayed every night. I prayed for a long list of everyone I hoped God would protect. Really, everyone I knew. My family, my friends, relatives, the souls of pets who had died.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
But that's so weird. I mean, just to say, like, whatever, different transmissions reach different people and places and mean different things. But why People magazine?
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
I always feel like just to defend people that mispronounce words, I'm always like, all that means is that you read a lot. Totally.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
I can imagine that getting you embarrassed at Yale.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Yeah. And it didn't, again, it was like you were able, I'm so used to hearing stories where the, a very familiar arc of a very familiar story for me is person grows up in cloistered, intense, religious community. And then, you know, it's almost like, Every culture loves a conversion story into itself.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
And so like, as a progressive intellectual type, we love the story of like, I was very religious, but then I read The New Yorker and I blah, blah, blah, blah. But your story, the way you tell it is, I was very religious, I found more experiences, I found more things to read and think about, but I was able to bring with me where I came from in a way that didn't feel painful or confusing.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
I couldn't fall asleep until I had prayed. Always the same prayer, every night, until I turned 15. When I was 15, something terrible happened to someone I loved. After that, I only prayed that this one person would be safe. A month later, the same terrible thing happened to them again. And after that, I mostly stopped praying. At first, I think I was pretty angry, but the anger went away.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Right. Like a way to not become one of those like internet atheists that's like constantly being like, oh, the flying spaghetti monster or whatever. They can't imagine that the human desire for belief in something larger or a spiritual existence is anything but like a dumb trick played on dumb people by the people who would manipulate them.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
That there might be something valuable or real about that impulse, even if you don't sign on to it. whatever you grew up with.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
It's funny as you talk about this stuff, one of the things that makes me realize is that In my existence, as the identity categories I belong to or don't belong to or flit in between, I'll have days where, I don't know, in the last few years, I feel like I spend not a lot of time, but some amount of time being like,
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
you know, like, progressive, liberal, like, left, whatever, where I'm like, where do I fit in here? Where don't I fit in here? Like, how much does it matter to know where I fit in here? Like, how much is a tribal question versus an intellectual one versus values one? You've had to do that sort of internal maneuvering with faith.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Coming up after the break, before Zvika becomes ordained as a rabbi, we chart how being both spiritual and unusual can lead someone to perhaps the strangest professional path I've ever heard a person describe. That's after some maths. Search Engine is brought to you by Rosetta Stone. There's a lot of reasons to learn a new language.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
One of my favorites, cognitive benefits, improved brain function. My brain has not been very good. Studies have shown that learning a new language can improve memory, problem solving skills, and even delay the onset of dementia. It might be too late for me, but it's not too late for you. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
It truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. Rosetta Stone has been a trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered. Lifetime membership has all 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
And then when it was gone, it just felt easier for me to live in a world where everything didn't happen for a reason. A world where when someone I knew got hurt, I didn't have to look for a lesson in it or imagine it as part of a plan. I kept getting older. I didn't think about God very much. But a couple years ago, I had a funny experience.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Search Engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine. That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. Search Engine is brought to you by Fresh Direct. I really like FreshDirect.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
When I go to the grocery store, for some reason, my brain goes into screensaver mode, and it takes me forever, and I get lost, and I come back with half of the things I actually need. So I end up saving hours a week just using FreshDirect. FreshDirect is farm to kitchen, food sourced directly from farmers, fishermen, and ranchers, and delivered straight to your door.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Because of this, I'm paying for the quality of food, rather than just paying someone to go to a store for me. FreshDirect says they are seven days fresher than the grocery store. And honestly, you can tell the difference. The convenience is unbeatable. You can grocery shop from your office or your couch whenever you want. The most recent thing I ordered from FreshDirect was a fennel bulb.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
I mean, I had other stuff too, but the fennel was really good. For over 20 years, Fresh Direct has been delivering the freshest fruits, vegetables, and meats to the tri-state area. Don't take my word for it. Try to believe it with $50 off your first order. Go to freshdirect.com and use code SEARCHENGINE. That's freshdirect.com, code SEARCHENGINE, for new customers to save $50 on their first order.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
The product is incredibly versatile. It can be used for just about any activity, running, training, swimming, yoga, but it's also great for my favorite form of exercise, which is lounging on a sofa. Also, Viore is 100% offsetting their carbon footprint. They're using better sustainable materials for their products to empower your best active life. Viore is an investment in your happiness.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Terms and restrictions apply. See site for details. I don't even know how to handle this in the context of an interview. Like, one of the things I have to do is, like, take complicated lives and simplify them in a way that is not untrue but is legible.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
And you've had such an interesting, like, life path that I'm not... Like, can you give me, what is your quickest, dirtiest pencil sketch of your professional life from college to rabbi?
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
I was in the desert with a friend, and I had this feeling I'd never had before. It lasted for about a minute. Just this sense, like a physical sense, that the world might just be a shadow of a different world. a place that was more real or more true. It lasted for about one full minute, and then it passed. I did not rush off to start a new religion or join an old one.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
And did you – Again, forgive me this naive question, but you're in a job that involves thinking through ethics and morality. The part of you that you would consult when you're trying to solve a problem there, was it just like you yourself? Were you thinking about, you know, Talmudic disputes about ox scoring in Aramaic for many centuries ago?
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
How did your faith and your job doing moral reasoning for a tech company, were they involved with each other?
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
But it's funny, I mean, that does sort of sound like I have not often sought spiritual guidance in my life. I'm not trying to say you were a spiritual leader at Facebook, although that's like a great movie idea, but more like you were doing what I've found people do, which is like they, rather than being like, here's what you should do, they'll say, here's what you might consider.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
I took what had happened with a grain of salt, but I also didn't discard it. It just left me with new questions. I know I'm not allowed to do a podcast called Is God Real? But I did want to try to understand what faith feels like to the people who have it. That question has really been sticking with me. I think I'll probably ask it a lot in the future to different people of different faiths.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Did you ever just give them a straight yes or no? No. No.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
It's funny. It's also you're taking the ethos of DIY scenes like punk and raves. You're like, we can just throw a show. We don't need an organization here.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
But recently, I found one person who would let me pester them about it. Do you want headphones or no headphones? I don't think I need headphones. I might do no headphones too, Shruti. Is that okay with you?
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
A few years ago, Zvika started attending rabbinical school. His time there coincided with a chapter of personal crisis in his life, a divorce, burnout. He took a break from full-time work to focus on parenting his child. And ultimately, he'd end up in the job he has now, leading services for a Jewish spiritual community in Berkeley.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
So you ended up in a place where even though you didn't want to be a rabbi in a synagogue, you're a spiritual leader who has now graduated rabbinical school in a spiritual community that has synagogue like tendencies.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
But you feel like you have a practice that fits with your own contradictions or things that maybe don't feel like contradictions anymore, but perhaps once did.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
But isn't it strange? I mean, look, I'm on the side of flawed people, honesty, uncertainty. But even to me, it's surprising that People often go to spiritual places for answers. When people are showing up with questions and you're like, the answer is, I don't know.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
How do I describe this person? We met recently. He leads a progressive Jewish spiritual community in Berkeley called Chokmah Halev.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
You're saying that a question can be as valuable as an answer.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Well, the first thing, and I was, like, perhaps this is just my boundless narcissism, but I was surprised reading some of what you'd written because I thought, oh... Part of the job you're doing is less far away from the job that I try to do than I thought, where it's like you're telling stories, you're choosing stories that already exist, you're trying to contextualize
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
I really enjoyed talking to him, and I got the sense I could ask him a bunch of invasive questions about his faith, that I could ask him about God like I was a kid who'd never smoked weed, who wanted to know what weed was like, and that these questions would not offend him. So I invited him to search engine headquarters to ask one of those no questions too big.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
the experiences people are having and give them something that might help them make meaning out of it. Like, there was a sermon where you were talking about it was as simple as, hey, like, everyone's going home for the holidays. People are going to have difficult conversations with family members.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
You were relating an experience you'd had where you'd, like, made comments that were, like, about Israel-Palestine that were sympathetic to Palestinians, and you had, like, more hardcore, like, pro-Israel people who had said hurtful things to you. And I thought, like... oh, this is a kind of sense-making and meaning-making that I understand. And that surprised me.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
But then there was another type of sermon, and this is where I was like, oh, religion requires a level of familiarity with texts that I don't have, where it would just be about, you know, stories from the past, stories from Scripture. That's the part that I can never... It always feels impenetrable to me. It always feels like a TV show that is on its 15,000th season.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
And everybody's like, oh, season one, this thing happened. And everybody says it means this, but I think it means this. And I understand the pleasures of textual analysis, and I understand the pleasures of looking at a story and trying to see it differently. But that was the part where I thought, oh, this is just a culture that's not my own.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
But... Well, and do you... Okay, The Binding of Isaac, which is a story that, as you start to describe it, I do know that story. When you're making a decision in your life or confronting something confusing or painful that's happened, are you, like... Oh, the Binding of Isaac.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
So my plan today, like the sort of roadmap I'm imagining for this conversation, I want to talk about your early life. I want to ask you about what your relationship to faith has been like, how it's changed, how you were dragged kicking and screaming into rabbidom, rabbidom. Rabbidant. Rabbidant.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Yeah. It's funny, I had a moment in my life where things were more challenging than usual. It was the only time where I found that when I read or thought about stories from the Bible I'd grown up with as a kid, I found myself more attracted to them and it wasn't because I felt more faith or less faith.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
I think it was the feeling of like people in the past lived lives that were harder to make meaning out of because death was everywhere and things were more senseless. And the stories that those people had used to survive then might be more valuable because I don't know, making sense of modernity can feel hard, but it's not hard like plague is hard. You know what I mean?
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
But it's also the text that you have to use.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
And then I want to see if I can get a sense of like how it feels to believe as someone who doesn't particularly believe.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Right. It's like we've made something in our image rather than something making us in its image.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Coming up after one more short break, we get to the question that brought us here today. Okay, what does it actually feel like to believe in God? At least for this one person. That's after some ads for companies. Search Engine is brought to you by NetSuite. What does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 answers. Bull market, bear market, rates will rise or fall.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 38,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one fluid platform. With one unified business management suite, there's one source of truth, giving you the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Like Catching Water in a Net. It's a book about how to describe God. Oh, really? Yeah, so it's like, this is the title. That's great. Okay, so we're doing something impossible today. Yeah. Okay, so can you just tell me about your life before you decided to become a rabbi? Like even as a kid, did you believe in God?
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
With real-time insights and forecasting, you're peering into the future with actionable data. When you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you're spending less time looking backwards and more time on what's next. If I needed a product like this, this is what I'd use. You can download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com slash pj.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
That guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash pj. netsuite.com slash pj. Search Engine is brought to you by ShipStation. These days, it feels like every device we use is getting smarter and more connected. We have smartwatches. We have Wi-Fi-enabled LED light bulbs. The world keeps getting smarter. Your e-commerce business should, too.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Whether you're looking for incredible efficiency or your business has outgrown your old shipping solutions, ShipStation helps you take the next step. ShipStation's features are a game changer for your business. You can easily automate shipping tasks and manage orders from one simple dashboard. All your automations will allow smooth printing shipping labels at the click of a button.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
You'll save thousands on shipping with industry-leading carrier discounts. Lead your business into the future with technology built to save you from extra costs and headaches. Lead your e-commerce business into a smarter future with the shipping software that delivers. Switch to ShipStation today. Go to ShipStation.com and use code SEARCH to sign up for your free 60-day trial.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
That's ShipStation.com code SEARCH. Surge Engine is brought to you by Fabric. As parents, you do everything you can to set your kids up for a successful future. Academics, team sports, college admissions. But what about getting started financially when they're out on their own?
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Fabric makes it easy for you to set up an investment account for your child now that grows with them and helps prepare for their financial future. Fabric by Gerber Life was designed by parents for parents to make it easy to plan for and manage your family's financial path. With a kids investment account from Fabric, you can start investing in your child's future today.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to help protect their family. Start investing in your child today at meetfabric.com slash search. That's meetfabric.com slash search. M-E-E-T fabric.com slash search. This is a paid promotion for the Fabric UGMA product and not for investment advisory services.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Portfolios managed by Fort Washington Investment Advisors, Inc., custodial services provided by Apex Clearing Corporation. All investing is subject to risk. Terms apply. Learn more at meetfabric.com. So what is it like for you to just live everyday life with a belief in God? How are you having a different experience than me?
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
But sometimes you are, in this analogy... there's times where you do feel like you're getting a clear connection or a clear signal.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Okay, so it's like an immolation of self as part of it.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
And when you're describing that awareness, is it an intellectual idea, an emotional idea, a physical feeling? Like at a peak experience of that awareness, what is happening inside your mind or inside your heart?
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
And so it's the way you're describing it. It's like a place you can go sometimes with stillness and contemplation.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Yeah. Yeah. That's really beautiful. I mean, it's like, I feel like people talk about oneness and unity and like trying to get away from the self. And I understand those things. But I guess I hadn't connected it to a feeling of belonging.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
I'm always encountering studies suggesting that Basically, if you can believe in God, in many ways, you're likely to be happier. And it's like, well, that's great. But like, it's not the type of thing you could rationally persuade yourself into doing. It's like, what advice would you have for someone who doesn't believe in God?
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Like, what are the things from your practice that you think a non-believer could still benefit from?
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
It's funny, I mean, I know your bent is towards not being prescriptive, but I do think the advice I would take from that or what I take from that is that perhaps more important than whether somebody has faith or doesn't have faith or what they have faith in, I do think it's pretty important to wrestle with larger questions.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Because I think if you don't, you end up just being stuck with the small ones. Like your life just kind of becomes, am I happy today? Was I happy yesterday? Will I be happier tomorrow? Will I get this? Will I lose this? And sometimes things go really well and sometimes they go really poorly.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
But it's almost like there's larger questions about existence or refuge because they give you a larger timescale of meaning than whatever's happening right now.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
For our listeners, Viore is offering 20% off your first purchase. Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at viore.com slash pjsearch. That's Viore, V-U-O-R-I dot com slash pjsearch. Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but you'll also enjoy free shipping on any US orders over 75 bucks and free returns.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
I also just like, it's funny, this year we've sort of been collecting advice from people and I would not have predicted at the beginning that where we would be sort of a year in is like, consider prayer and surrender.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Thanks so much for having me. When I spoke to Zvika, I was having a nice week. The week after was more challenging. And I found this conversation playing back in my head. During the tough week, I had this feeling that I forgot I have sometimes, which was a little jealous of people who are able to believe. It's a funny kind of jealousy.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
There are so many things you get to choose, how to behave, who to spend your time with. But if you choose to believe in something, I'm not sure what you have really is belief, or if it's belief, it's not the kind of belief I'm jealous of. But Zvika had told me the two things someone like me might take from someone like him were prayer and surrender.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
You could try saying what you hoped would happen, or you could try letting go of your ability to control it. Sometimes I think, for those of us who don't believe, we make this mistake, that if no one's in control, we have to be. Maybe that's wrong. This week, I'm trying to surrender. I'll let you know how it goes. Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Search Engine was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Shruthi Pinamaneni, and is produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Fact-checking this week by Holly Patton. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Armin Bazarian. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Reese-Dennis. Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Perrello, and John Schmidt, and to the team at Odyssey, J.D.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchison, Matt Casey, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Court Courtney, and Hilary Schaaf. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at UTA. Follow and listen to Search Engine with PJ Vogt now for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next week.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
So you're in Los Angeles, but it's like a very strict upbringing, like a strict religious upbringing.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
And is it like, I want to say excuse my ignorance, but if I say that, I'm going to have to say it so many times in this interview. So just as a blanket consideration, please excuse my ignorance. Like, you know, I said like Williamsburg Orthodox, like in Brooklyn where I live, it's sort of this thing that people always find remarkable when they move here that
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Williamsburg, Brooklyn, which has a reputation as being both a hipster neighborhood but also an expensive neighborhood, there's one portion of Williamsburg that is just Orthodox Jewish. And when you are driving, all of a sudden you just hit it. And it's like a lot of people... in the same community, living the same way.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Was it like that in Los Angeles where you're in a distinct community where everyone's following practices or is it more dispersed?
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
And when you're experiencing punk shows and raves, particularly like, was that okay? Or was it like you're sort of like stepping out?
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
And did you feel like you were moving between worlds? Did those things feel cohesive to you?
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
Go to viore.com slash pjsearch and discover the versatility of Viore clothing. When I was a kid, I believed in God, the Christian big guy in the sky God. My family wasn't hardcore about it, but we went to church on Sundays. When we kids resisted, we were bribed with donuts. I found Sunday school to be mainly confusing.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
I've realized a question I meant to ask you really is like, and you've answered it, but was, did you feel ashamed? And it sounds like you didn't feel ashamed. It felt like exciting or normal or correct.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
And so, okay, so at this point, you're like, you're able to live in different worlds. And the god that you're imagining is the sort of like... classic God, like God in the sky watching.
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
And what was your relationship like to that God?
Search Engine
What does it feel like to believe in God?
When you said college is when you start to split somewhat from the exact rituals and beliefs of your childhood?
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Surge Engine is sponsored by Viore. Viore is a new perspective on performance apparel. It's perfect if you're sick and tired of traditional old workout gear. Everything is designed to work out in, but it doesn't feel or look like it. It's extremely comfortable. You'll want to wear it all the time. I promise you it is more comfortable than whatever you're wearing right now.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
You had the feeling of Am I Too Far Out on a Ledge, even if it was creatively fulfilling, right? Right. And so that's 2005. Enron, it did hit a cultural nerve. It did.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
And in the aftermath, Alex's career entered this new phase where people with money now trusted him. And of course, he cashed that capital in to make an even more seemingly uncommercial film. This one was called Taxi to the Dark Side. It's a documentary about an Afghan taxi driver who was beaten to death by American interrogators.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Alex says he made the movie in part to broadcast this observation about human nature that he'd noticed. He learned that the American interrogators had kept torturing their prisoner even after they knew that there was no intelligence to gain from him.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
I feel like one of the network executives because it's like you're talking about the actual heart and meaning of these stories. And I'm like, what were the economic conditions like over and over again?
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
I complain about work like anybody else, but the more honest part of me always knows that really, I'm getting away with something. Being paid to make art you love is as close to a scam as you can run without being in legal danger. It feels impossible that this is all true. And the thing is, some years, it wasn't true. When I first started in audio, podcasting didn't really exist. It was radio.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
I'm a little embarrassed to admit this, but before this conversation, I never really got the point of awards for art. The idea that you pay money to submit your work to be judged by your peers has always smelled a little bit, to me, like a vanity scam. But for somebody like Alex, awards have been vital.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
A movie about torture might never make a ton of box office cash, but it can win an Oscar, which can be its own motivation for a funder to put their money in. The thing sweeping his career forward now wasn't just a greater cultural appreciation for artsy, power-interrogating documentaries. It was that the business model kept changing in ways that favored creators like Alex.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
DVDs arrived, allowing filmmakers to charge consumers more for home movies than they had with VHS tapes. And then, DVDs were replaced by internet streaming companies. In the battle to be the next Netflix, streamers spent heavily on new work, including splashy documentaries, which were a relatively cheap way to signal you were a premium channel.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Plus, in the streaming era, a film didn't need to be such a big hit because the companies were better at algorithmically targeting little sub-communities that were likely to enjoy a specific film.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Right, because a soggy croissant is always going to be, like, I think David Foster Wallace wrote that we're unique in our highbrow tastes, but we tend to be common in our lowbrow tastes. Like, everybody's curious about a murder. Everybody's curious on some level about a celebrity, or most people are. But if you can target small, passionate audiences, you can target them in more specific ways.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Like, you can make things that are more idiosyncratic or personal or inventive or whatever.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
So what's the point at which the streaming age starts to feel, I don't want to say bad, that's like such a simple way to put it, but what is the part where, or the moment where, the limitations of the new model start to reveal themselves to you as a filmmaker?
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
I mean, as a viewer and someone who is completely unsophisticated in my understanding of the film industry, I don't see that much stuff in theaters, but I do use stuff being in theaters as a sign that I should pay attention to it. Right, right.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
And now that they have more power, they just make the cheapest thing. They can make a product that's a little bit worse, but where they claw back a little bit more money, et cetera. That's right. Yeah. That's right. And so then what does it look like for you?
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
And there would have been no business model to support a show like the one you're listening to. I've been here long enough that I've watched the business model arrive. I worked for a few years where there was tons of money in podcasting, and I'm here in the era after, where a low tide ebbs again.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
What Alex is saying is that in the previous, more competitive era, some upstart streamer may have been willing to take on the risk of offending Russia. Yeah. But now, in this less competitive moment, with fewer people funding work like his, the system's overall risk tolerance goes down.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Another side effect of a system that wants less risky movies is that a lot of the biggest documentaries in the past couple years have just been adoring profiles of celebrities who frequently get a lot of creative input and sometimes even final cut.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
So when, to talk about this recent project, when HBO comes to you and says, we want you to make a film about David Chase, and that's about Sopranos, which is one of their properties, were you worried that what they wanted was that they wanted... Yes, I was.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
The state of things comes up on the show sometimes because one of the biggest questions that actually preoccupies me day to day is how are we going to get people to pay for this shit? Free art, pay what you want, is a funny thing to build a life on. It preoccupies me.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
How do you make something personal and important when everything about the system is conspiring to keep it off? After a short break, the story of a person who did that maybe the most successfully of anyone. A guy with a tortured relationship with his mother who wanted the whole world to find that drama interesting. Search Engine is brought to you by Rosetta Stone.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
There's a lot of reasons to learn a new language. One of my favorites, cognitive benefits, improved brain function. My brain has not been very good. Studies have shown that learning a new language can improve memory, problem solving skills, and even delay the onset of dementia. It might be too late for me, but it's not too late for you.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program, available on desktop or as an app. It truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. Rosetta Stone has been a trusted expert for 30 years, with millions of users and 25 languages offered. Lifetime membership has all 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. Don't put off learning that language.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
There's no better time than right now to get started. Search Engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine. That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. Search Engine is brought to you by FreshDirect.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
And I know it preoccupies me because lately, when I see something good, a movie, a book, a live event, I don't think so much about the creative choices enabling it. I think... How is this getting funded? Even what does the lifestyle of the person who made this look like that it permits them to make art? Do they have kids? Where do they live?
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
I really like FreshDirect. When I go to the grocery store, for some reason, my brain goes into screensaver mode, and it takes me forever, and I get lost, and I come back with half of the things I actually need. So I end up saving hours a week just using FreshDirect. FreshDirect is farm-to-kitchen, food sourced directly from farmers, fishermen, and ranchers, and delivered straight to your door.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
The product is incredibly versatile. It can be used for just about any activity, running, training, swimming, yoga, but it's also great for my favorite form of exercise, which is lounging on a sofa. Also, Viore is 100% offsetting their carbon footprint. They're using better sustainable materials for their products to empower your best active life. Viore is an investment in your happiness.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Because of this, I'm paying for the quality of food, rather than just paying someone to go to a store for me. FreshDirect says they are seven days fresher than the grocery store. And honestly, you can tell the difference. The convenience is unbeatable. You can grocery shop from your office or your couch whenever you want. The most recent thing I ordered from FreshDirect was a fennel bulb.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
I mean, I had other stuff too, but the fennel was really good. For over 20 years, Fresh Direct has been delivering the freshest fruits, vegetables, and meats to the tri-state area. Don't take my word for it. Try to believe it with $50 off your first order. Go to freshdirect.com and use code SEARCHENGINE. That's freshdirect.com, code SEARCHENGINE, for new customers to save $50 on their first order.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Terms and restrictions apply. See site for details. Welcome back to the show. So, Alex Gibney, a talented and stubborn man who figured out how to make personal art in a system designed to snuff it out. His latest film is about David Chase, a talented and stubborn man who figured out how to make personal art in a system designed to snuff it out.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Chase was a TV writer who had had a successful career commercially in the 80s and most of the 90s, but who now felt profoundly frustrated by the limitations of the form. What is the process by which The Sopranos goes from an idea in David Chase's head to a television show on HBO?
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
So David Chase, frustrated, done with television, convinced that the era is just not one that will let him make work he finds interesting. He figures he probably needs to switch to movies. He has this one idea he wants to try. This is a clip from the documentary, Wiseguy. The voice you'll hear belongs to David Chase.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
In the documentary, David Chase tells Gibney about how a colleague, Robin Green, also pushed him to try to build a story around his difficult mother. In her pitch, though, it was more autobiographical.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
This documentary came out this week called Wiseguy, which is about The Sopranos, my favorite TV show, maybe my favorite piece of narrative art. And watching it, it felt like the documentary was asking the same question that has been haunting me. How do you make something personal and important when the entire system is conspiring to keep that stuff off the air?
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Right. HBO had existed as a cable network since the 1970s, but in the 1990s, the channel was trying to transform itself. At the time, most HBO subscribers were there to watch movies and boxing matches. But HBO, like Netflix would 20 years later, wanted to start making more of its own stuff, to make a real name for itself.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
A traditional TV network may have wanted David Chase to make the safest, most cost-effective version of The Sopranos, but HBO was competing on quality. There might be a lesson here about golden ages, that if you're someone who makes stuff, one of the best places you could find yourself is at an upstart company trying to compete against the establishment.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
The documentary, appropriately, is by the director Alex Gibney, who has spent his career defiantly making non-commercial films. He made Going Clear, critiquing one of the more lawsuit-happy groups in America, Scientologists. He won an Oscar for his bleak but fascinating documentary about American torture, Taxi to the Dark Side.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
I mean, there's something funny about the idea that millions of dollars were spent and made for someone to just kind of have their dream.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
You actually, in the movie, you play a clip from that scene, which is kind of famous. It's episode five, first season. Tony Soprano takes his daughter Meadow on a college tour. And it's this moment where you're really seeing him as a sweet dad instead of as a mob boss.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
And then while he's on this college tour with his daughter, he happens to run into a guy who's in the witness protection program, who had actually snitched on associates of Tony's. And so it is like a moment where you feel the show challenging you as a viewer because you're seeing him in this very domestic, state, sweet dad guy, and then you're watching him plot the murder of this guy.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
I'd vaguely heard about the argument behind this scene, but the two things that surprised me that I understood in a different or deeper way watching your film, one is you have the HBO executive who's like, yeah, yeah, we totally were telling him to take this out. Like you actually, you never see the suits.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
He also works in the same office as me, so sometimes we see each other at the coffee machine. I still don't know how to work. I wanted to ask Alex Gibney how to work that coffee machine. Just kidding. I wanted to ask him how he's figured out how to make a career doing risky creative work that other people pay for.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Like people always talk about the notes from the suits, whatever, but the suits never show up and say, this is what I was thinking and why. So you have that. But then also they talk about how they did say like, hey, if you're insisting on doing this? Like, we can be convinced.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
We can be convinced by the argument that otherwise he's bullshit and the show's bullshit and you have to do this for the show to have integrity and for people to care about it. But could you make the guy he's going to kill a little bit more Malevolent. Yeah, and they do. There's this moment where they're in the parking lot of the motel and you see the guy and he pulls out a pistol.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
He's in darkness. He's aiming it at Tony and his daughter. And then he realizes there's other people at the motel and he can't get away with it and he puts the gun down. But so as a viewer, you're feeling a bit more like, okay, this guy, he's threatened him, whatever. And it was funny watching that moment where I was like, oh, you know, maybe the network was right.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Like maybe the push and pull between the artist and the people who stand for skittish audiences, maybe it had produced something that worked.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
There's a moment in your film where you're interviewing the writers of The Sopranos. They say that they don't think the show could be made or made in the same way today. It would be too controversial. What do you make of that?
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
In Wiseguy, the Sopranos writers talk about the freedom and tension that came with inventing all these unlikable characters and then imbuing these unlikable characters with attributes that sometimes came from the writers themselves.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
And also about what he learned from interviewing Sopranos creator David Chase, one of the people who most successfully made something personal and strange while still connecting with a massive audience. Alex, welcome to Search Engine.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
You could have just made some offensive paintings. Yeah.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Yeah, and it's funny, it's like, what's so brilliant about it being a mob show is that one, Once there's guns and murder, you can trick people into paying attention to family dynamics, which is part of what he wants to talk about. But also, these writers can take ideas that they have or parts of themselves that might be uncomfortable.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Good to be here. So this is my theory for the structure of our episode. The Sopranos was a show about observing decline. The pilot of The Sopranos opens with this monologue from Tony Soprano about how America is in decline, how he was born too late and he missed the good old days.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
But now, if it's coming out of the mouth of a murdering mobster, that's a context in which we're willing to sit with those ideas without worrying if we're hearing art from a bad person.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
After a short break, Alex Gibney, someone who has survived decades, all these different eras of technological and business shifts, who's learned both from his own work and from the work of people like David Chase, his advice on how to keep going during tough times. Search Engine is brought to you by Rosetta Stone. There's a lot of reasons to learn a new language.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
One of my favorites, cognitive benefits, improved brain function. My brain has not been very good. Studies have shown that learning a new language can improve memory, problem solving skills, and even delay the onset of dementia. It might be too late for me, but it's not too late for you. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
It truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. Rosetta Stone has been a trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered. Lifetime membership has all 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Search Engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com search engine. That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com search engine today.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
You are documenting how the story of The Sopranos being made is a story of a different kind of decline, like a TV show from this blip of a moment where television shows that were that good could get on the air. Your project is a documentary. The documentary business, many people have observed, is in its own state of decline.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Search Engine is brought to you by Spot Pet. Search Engine listeners know that I love my dog more than anything else in this world. I want to be buried in a pyramid with him when he dies or when I die. Whoever goes first, we're going together. I want to share a message from our trusted companion in helping you be ready for any unexpected vet visits. Spot Pet Insurance.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Spot Pet Insurance is your virtual ally against the unexpected. With Spot Plans, you can receive up to 90% cash back on eligible vet bills, helping to transform unforeseen expenses into manageable moments of care for your cherished pets. Spot Pet Insurance plans go beyond just offering coverage for accidents and illnesses.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Access to a 24-7 vet telehealth hotline is included with every policy, so you can ask an expert all your questions. You can also enhance your plan with their preventative care benefit, helping ensure routine wellness, vaccines, and more can be covered too. Head over to spotpet.com for an instant quote today.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
I think I'm supposed to read this part super fast, so I'm going to read this part super fast. Ready? Disclaimer, pay to add from Spot Pet Insurance. Waiting periods, annual deductibles, co-insurance, benefit limits, and exclusions may apply. For all terms, visit spotpetins.com slash sample policy.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Insurance plans are underwritten by either Independent American Insurance Company or United States Fire Insurance Company and produced by Spot Pet Insurance Services, LLC. David Chase has said that this moment where The Sopranos was allowed to happen was a blip. Like, whatever window that opened for a moment that he snuck through, he doesn't think that window is open anymore.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
And then I wanted to interview you about all this on a podcast, podcasting. In decline. Very much in decline. And then my plan is at the end of this interview, we'll probably both die. Suicide. Yes.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Yeah. I mean, I think in podcasting, certainly, there was a moment where... It's like you want the moments where the people with money kind of don't know what they're doing. Right. And they're just like betting on a lot of stuff and they're not tracking things very carefully.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
And what gets harder if you're trying to make something interesting is either they've figured out what works and they just want to do that over and over again. That's right. Or they're scared. That's right. And I think right now is a moment where they've both figured out which things work and they're scared. Right.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Yeah, and we're never going to be a big enough part of their business to be worth that much headache. And so I think it makes sense. And I don't think they think of it that way. Like, I don't have conversations.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
That was pretty good. Yeah. Or do you want to do the thing that might not work, and then you have to have a meeting? And, like, the meeting goes badly. Right. Yeah. But it's funny, you know, what I get from this conversation with you, it's so funny to compare podcasting to film and television because they're like cities and we're just like some little like highway town.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
But there's this real sense of doom and gloom and end days and whatever, like because there was like such a surge and then such a crash. But hearing the way you look at your industry and look at adjacent industry, it feels almost more like a sailor looking at tides, you know?
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
It's over. Yeah. No, and I felt, you know, when I got into radio, it was like, there was public radio and there was some great programs, but I felt like, what are you doing? Like, this is a stupid thing to love. You're just a person out of time. I didn't get in thinking anything good would ever happen.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Does it sound good? Do you agree generally with our premise? I do. I do. Okay, so my first question is just like, the way Tony Soprano feels about America, to what degree do you feel that way about documentary film in America?
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Yeah, and you don't know even when you're living through a good moment. I mean, sometimes you do, but at a certain point, it's like you're just the people who make stuff and they figure out a way to make stuff.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Yeah. No, I totally agree, and it's weird. I identify with both people in that conversation. Like, I understand the feeling of, I don't want to make something at any less of a resource level than the highest resource level I've ever participated in. But I also understand the viewpoint of, like, art is making it. Like, art is making it when it's hard. Art is doing it under constraints.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Oftentimes, the money is a... questionable gift, you know what I mean? Like oftentimes the things you invent because you have to are just as worthwhile and vital as the things that are much better catered.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
And it's funny, I always end up lost in these conversations raging about the unfairness of the industry because there's a part of me that feels it and there's a part of me that's just like, get to work. Right. That's right. So, what did we learn this week about surviving as the kind of lunatic who wants to make things for a living?
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
I think what I hear in Alex's story, and in David Chase's, is that to survive a creative dark age, it helps to have a kind of pathological stubbornness. It also helps to be willing to do work you don't love while you wait for the chance to do the work you do. And that we're at the mercy of changes in business models and audience expectations that are bigger than any one person.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
But that the people who make things make things. And that success for a lot of people I admire came a lot later than I would have expected. I did have one last question for Alex. We've established that podcasting is certainly in decline. TV is in decline. Documentary film is in decline. Do you feel like America itself is in decline? Yes.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
I wanted to rewind a little bit for the rest, before the recent golden era. I asked Alex to tell me the story of how he first fell in love with documentary film, one of show business' less profitable avenues. Alex's story begins decades ago, the first era of his career, which he spent in the creative wilderness.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Alex Gibney, his new documentary is called Wiseguy, David Chase and the Sopranos. You can see it on the channel formerly called HBO, Max, now. Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Shruthi Pinmaneni, and is produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Fact-checking this week by Holly Patton.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Theme, original composition, and mixing by Armin Bazarian. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Reese-Dennis. Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Perrello, and John Schmidt. And to the team at Odyssey, J.D. Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Kate Rose, Matt Casey, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Shuff.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at UTA. If you'd like to support the show and get access to our incognito mode feed with no ads, no reruns, and bonus episodes, head to searchengine.show. You can also submit a question for us there, whether or not you're a paid subscriber. Follow and listen to Search Engine for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
He grew up in New England and moved to California in the late 1970s to go to film school at UCLA.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
For our listeners, Viore is offering 20% off your first purchase. Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at viore.com slash pjsearch. That's Viore, V-U-O-R-I dot com slash pjsearch. Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but you'll also enjoy free shipping on any US orders over 75 bucks and free returns.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
So you're showing up at a moment where you are feeling a little bit Tony Soprano-esque in that you're missing a slightly bygone era and you have a vision for what you want to make, but where the landscape that you first arrived to was not a landscape that was conducive to it.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Alex's time in the creative wilderness, his post-office era, lasted for years. The 1980s bled into the 1990s. In the late 90s, he has this moment that really helps him understand the art form and the industry he's pledged himself to that helps him understand why it is he's been so stuck.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Go to viore.com slash pjsearch and discover the versatility of Viore clothing. Welcome to Search Engine, I'm PJ Vogt. No question too big, no question too small, no question too repetitively echoing in my head seven times a day. Okay. I've been telling stories professionally for 16 years.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
A quick tangent, but I think it's worth it. This is a quote from Disney's Bob Weiss, the park's creative director at the time. Quote, the park will deal with the highs and lows. We want to make you feel what it was like to be a slave and what it was like to escape through the Underground Railroad. That, quote, inspired more public outrage.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Disney CEO Michael Eisner jumped in to defend the amusement park ride, saying, quote, if people think we will back off, they are mistaken. People were not mistaken. Disney did back off, describing not just the ride, but the entire park and ultimately the Americana TV channel.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Executives, like the ones who made this series of decisions, are the people who control the money that determines what someone like Alex Gibney is allowed to make. That's just the reality we live in. In this case, though, Alex's project wasn't actually killed. It was just moved over to a different channel.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
So what did you understand in that moment?
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
You thought that the ads were what was interrupting your program and what you understood in that moment is that you were the stuff in between. Correct. Alex learned the reason why it was so hard to make the complicated stories he wanted to make. His real job, as his bosses understood it, wasn't to find audiences who wanted to be challenged.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
It was to make inoffensive, mass-market content to put in between commercials. Alex Gibney was not happy to learn that in some people's eyes, he was really there to sell paper towels. For the record, this podcast is ad-supported. I actually feel mostly okay about it. When we're working on a story, the person whose happiness I think about is the listeners, not the advertisers.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
I've never had to worry about not covering a topic because it was going to upset, like, an internet-based mattress company. I do think the thing everyone's trying to figure out is, how do I make the thing I want to make and find all the weirdos out there who might enjoy it? And for 20 years, the audience that would enjoy and pay for Alex's work, they existed, but he couldn't prove it.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
His big break would come in the early 2000s, when he'd just turned 50 years old. What happened was that a few stylish, voicey documentaries broke out as hits. Super Size Me, Bowling for Columbine. Films like those, plus the rise of reality TV, meant that executives warmed to the idea that viewers might find unscripted stories interesting.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
For Alex, who'd spent decades subsisting mainly on hope, this moment was a nice surprise.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
What were the kinds of things that you made in that moment that you feel like they were surprised to be allowed to make? Enron. Enron.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
In 2005, Alex directed a film called Enron, The Smartest Guys in the Room. It was a documentary about accounting, but not just accounting. It's the story of the Enron scandal, where executives at a power company used fraudulent accounting to make it seem like they were making tons of money while hiding their mounting debt. Along the way, they wantonly committed memorable crimes.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
Some of those crimes actually caught on tape, aired in the documentary.
Search Engine
A stubborn lunatic’s guide to making great art
For Alex, this is the exact kind of film that for years he could not have dreamed of getting a chance to make. Did you feel like, I can't believe I'm getting away with this?
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Hi, search engine listeners. This is PJ Vogt. I hope you're having a cool summer. Over the next four weeks, I want to take you back in time to a very strange moment in our very recent history. The year was 2022. The prices of various cryptocurrencies had smashed through the ozone layer. And if you were trying to figure out what was going on and you went online, you'd encounter two kinds of people.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Packy thinks that whatever DAOs end up evolving into, say, 20 years from now, that'll be a way that businesses in the future are run and funded. Which, who knows? But the real reason I wanted to talk to Paki is that Paki had been centrally involved in ConstitutionDAO, the DAO that was trying to buy the Constitution. And through Paki, I started meeting other people on the core team.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
What was your week like in ConstitutionDAO land? What were you working on?
Search Engine
The Bidding War
By the end of the weekend, a group of about 30 people had formed the core team of the DAO. Nicole was probably an ideal person for something like this. She's a VC, but her path there is pretty unusual. She went to community college outside DC for a minute, but dropped out.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Then she says she just started attending open talks about tech, meeting industry people on Twitter, and out of pure hustle, parlayed that into a job as an investor. She's a force in nature, and she brought that energy to the DAO.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Please enjoy this first one, which takes place fully inside a Sotheby's auction, where two parties are fighting to own this nation's founding document. That's after some ads.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Participant observer is a great way of putting it. Over the course of that week, the core team managed to sell this idea of ConstitutionDAO to almost 20,000 people, including Grimes, although she would join Spiced Out too. Each person who donated crypto had gotten a digital coin in exchange. In this case, they were called people tokens. Remember, this is like stock. The tokens had financial value.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
You could trade them. But more interestingly, they granted all these people voting rights. The ability to decide what should happen to the Constitution if they all won it. A third of these people were new wallets, which meant, in many cases, people who apparently had never joined a crypto project before.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Together, they'd contributed $47 million, more than twice what Sotheby's had estimated the Constitution should go for. The Dow was ready to bid. More story after some ads. Search Engine is brought to you by Fresh Direct. I really like FreshDirect.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
When I go to the grocery store, for some reason, my brain goes into screensaver mode, and it takes me forever, and I get lost, and I come back with half of the things I actually need. So I end up saving hours a week just using FreshDirect. FreshDirect is farm to kitchen, food sourced directly from farmers, fishermen, and ranchers, and delivered straight to your door.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Because of this, I'm paying for the quality of food, rather than just paying someone to go to a store for me. FreshDirect says they are seven days fresher than the grocery store, and honestly, you can tell the difference. The convenience is unbeatable. You can grocery shop from your office or your couch whenever you want. The most recent thing I ordered from FreshDirect was a fennel bulb.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
I mean, I had other stuff too, but the fennel was really good. For over 20 years, Fresh Direct has been delivering the freshest fruits, vegetables, and meats to the tri-state area. Don't take my word for it. Try to believe it with $50 off your first order. Go to freshdirect.com and use code SEARCHENGINE. That's freshdirect.com, code SEARCHENGINE, for new customers to save $50 on their first order.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Terms and restrictions apply. See site for details. Search Engine is brought to you by Rosetta Stone. There's a lot of reasons to learn a new language. One of my favorites, cognitive benefits, improved brain function. My brain has not been very good. Studies have shown that learning a new language can improve memory, problem solving skills, and even delay the onset of dementia.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
It might be too late for me, but it's not too late for you. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app. It truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. Rosetta Stone has been a trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Lifetime membership has all 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. Search Engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine. That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. Welcome back to the show.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Chapter 2, The Bidding War. Sotheby's head of jewelry, Quig Bruning, is standing in a fairly nondescript room on a dais in front of what looks like a Lichtenstein.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
I'm watching this on YouTube, and in the small box of the frame, you see the room with its reverential audience, wealthy, hushed. We glimpse the backs of their respectful heads. But just beneath that box, there's the comment section where thousands of additional viewers live. The DAO. They are anything but hushed. They're ecstatic. Their comments was by a mile a minute.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Someone's spamming an emoji of a scroll like the Constitution. Someone else is typing W-A-G-B-T-C. We're all going to buy the Constitution over and over. Someone makes an NFT joke. The Constitution's a copyright. You just right-click, save as.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
People across the country, across the world, were watching this auction from various computers. But a bunch of the core team had gathered in one place. They'd found a space with a projector in Midtown Manhattan, near Grand Central Station.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
So in the room at Sotheby's, the actual bidding was being done by two Sotheby's employees, acting on behalf of the real bidders. One thing the Dow audience was not clear on was actually a pretty fundamental question. Of the two Sotheby's employees in the room, which one was actually representing them?
Search Engine
The Bidding War
There's never consensus, but a lot of people lean towards Brooke Lampley, which just seemed right. Brooke was this young, striking woman. She kind of had the Michaela Maroney smirk the whole time.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Plus the other proxy, the other Sotheby's employee in the room, just so perfectly seemed to represent everything Constitution doubt was fighting against. This guy, this guy was so perfectly cast. His name was David Schrader. He had a neatly shaved bald head, an expensive well-cut suit. He looked like a stylish villain from a movie about bankers who hide the vaccine for money.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
In the world where Brooke Lampley represented the Dow, who did David Schrader represent? Like Brooke, David also had a telephone to his ear, taking bids from someone, some mystery bidder. Sotheby's estimate for the Constitution's price had been $15 to $20 million. But the mystery bidder, like the Dow, seemed willing to spend way more than that, which was becoming a problem.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Because while the Dow had $47 million, the maximum they could bid was a little over 41. The core team had figured out they had to set some money aside for auction fees, transportation, storage, taxes. So the closer the number got to 41 million, the closer they were to losing this thing.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Back at the core team's lair, Nicole Ruiz was actually sitting next to the guy who was placing their bids, who was on the phone with the Sotheby's rep they were seeing on the screen.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
So you could hear both sides. You could hear, you could hear the other side as well.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
And then what he was just saying, like, yes, go up. Yes. Go up. What was he saying?
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Like he was just trying to give him a memory, like a calm memory to where he could like hide out instead of in his own anxiety.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
If somebody just stopped you and been like, Packy, like, why is everyone in this room doing this thing? Like, what has this room decided is important? Like, what would you say?
Search Engine
The Bidding War
This was the scene one evening last November in Manhattan. Sotheby's, the auction house, was selling an actual printed copy of the U.S. Constitution. By the end of the night, it would be the most expensive document ever auctioned, beating out the Magna Carta and Leonardo da Vinci's journal.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
People just get excited online about being part of a large group that is doing something powerful, especially if it's powerful and a little bit dumb. A hundred percent. Once people see that's happening, they just want to be a part of that thing. Which feels like, I know that for you, the long-term meaningfulness of DAOs can be about stuff like
Search Engine
The Bidding War
climate change and rare diseases, but the short term feels like some of it is just like, holy shit, look what we could put on the jumbotron today.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
I think I do actually agree with Paki that democracy was being represented here. I just... I'm not always sure. It's not that I... I guess... Is there any idea as beautiful in theory but as stomach-lurchingly rickety in practice as actual democracy?
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Back at the auction, while the bidders battled it out in increments of tens of millions of dollars, the video's live comments box showcased the anarchic, crazed part of democracy as it is actually practiced. The commenters were not coolly discussing America's grand tradition as a republic. they were screaming their heads off.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
It was an endless scroll of cheering, jeering, paranoid screeds, and truly lunatic plans for the country's founding document. One person commanded, Nicholas Cage should be nominated as the primary guardian of this document. Another person said, let's burn the Constitution and turn it into an NFT. Someone else agreed, let's smoke it. Someone asked, why not burn it?
Search Engine
The Bidding War
A calmer voice chimed in, anyone want to not burn it? And the compromise solution was proposed. Let's not burn the Constitution and turn it into an NFT. These were the people that the core team had been essentially wrangling for the past six days. The raucous voice of real democracy, with the core team functioning almost like a congress.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
I mean, it's part of what stresses me out about DAOs is like groups of people stress me out. Group projects stress me out a lot.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Do you ever feel a sense of panic? The difference between being the core contributor channels in the Discord and then the general channel in the Discord...
Search Engine
The Bidding War
235 years ago, when the Constitution was originally written, it was penned by an engrosser in Philly named Jacob Chalice. He printed on animal skin, either calf, sheep, or goat, and he was paid the equivalent of about $30 in Pennsylvania continental currency. Afterwards, 500 typeset copies were made, printed for $420. That means original copies of the Constitution went for $1.19.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
I find Constitutional confusing the way I find crypto confusing. Which, I mean, not just the jargon or the technology or the math of it all, but also just how to feel about it. It's confounding. Crypto is a populist movement opposed to big banks and central power, but some of its ringleaders and most excited cheerleaders are VCs.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
It doesn't really fit into the arguments or alignments that I'm used to seeing. I understand why someone like Paki can look at Constitution DAO and see a new form of joyfully absurd populism asserting itself, I don't know which opinion is right, or really if there's any right opinion at all.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
The only thing I know for sure is that making any big pronouncements or predictions about what this is or where it's going seems like a great way to look stupid when it all changes again in five minutes. So instead, how about I just tell you the identity of the person who was bidding so aggressively against the Dow? Why don't I just tell you about the mystery bidder?
Search Engine
The Bidding War
That is multi-billionaire Ken Griffin, 45th richest person in America, second richest person in Illinois, hater of internet populism. The guy who bailed out Wall Street when Redditors were beating them up with GameStop stock. You just heard him speaking at an event a month before the auction where, conveniently, someone asked him the question I've learned derails every dinner in 2022.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
A jihadist call that we don't believe in the dollar. That is mystery bidder Ken Griffin. Griffin was a person motivated not just by a desire to own the Constitution, but by an understanding of what it was Constitution Dow was trying to say. He disagreed with them. And he was disagreeing with them in one of the oldest, clearest languages America has.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
In this moment in the auction, the Dow does not know that they are bidding against Ken Griffin. He was simply the mystery bidder. All they know is that somehow, six minutes into the auction, the cost of an old scrap of paper had reached $40 million. The Dow doesn't have much money left. All eyes are on Brooke Lampley, the person bidding on behalf of the Dow.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
At the time, there's no evidence that these 500 copies were considered especially valuable as artifacts. They were about as disposable as the pamphlet a salesman presses into your hand that you take home to your family to decide whether or not you're going to buy a new fridge. Important, informational, not yet historic. And so the copies were mostly not preserved.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Just watching this is nerve-wracking. Quake looks at David. David's hand is on the phone. He does not look up.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
It was over. Brooke Lampley, still holding the phone to her ear, now smiling like a cat who ate a canary. In the YouTube comments box, people are still arguing about whether or not they've won, whether Brooke had indeed represented them. Someone says, yes, yes, we did it, followed immediately by someone who says, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
The most important thing and the funniest thing about DAOs is that they are decentralized. No CEO, no gods, no masters. So what happened next? A couple DAO members, not the core team, started celebrating. They opened up an audio chat room on Twitter to members of the press. A reporter from Motherboard recorded it.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
He said he'd just gotten a text from one of his friends who was higher up in the DAO. They'd won.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
History was made. Another DAO member said, maybe it was time to consider the next auction.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
They were giddy. They were taking questions. These random DAO members who had appointed themselves revolutionary spokespeople. But they'd made a mistake. Their assumption had been that Brooke was their proxy. She seemed like their proxy. But nobody really confirmed it. And then another text came in.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Of the original 500, a handful remain. Most are in libraries. Two are in private hands. And this was one of them. It was a very, very rare piece of paper for sale.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
I don't know if you caught what he said there. Maybe next time we buy an NBA team. This is just a start. What did it feel like when the auction was over?
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Either a person claiming to have gotten rich off crypto, telling you to buy now before it was too late. Or one of the people who overnight had amassed large online followings by relentlessly explaining how all of this was a farce. A bunch of planet-burning scammers trying to separate you from your money with useless Ponzi technology.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
After the break, Chapter 3. Search Engine is brought to you by Betterment. Do you want your money to be motivated? Do you want your money to rise and grind? Do you think your money should get up and work? Don't worry, Betterment is here to help. Betterment is the automated investing and savings app that makes your money hustle.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Their automated technology is built to help maximize returns, meaning when you invest with Betterment, your money can auto-adjust as you get closer to your goal, rebalance if your portfolio gets too far out of line, and your dividends are automatically reinvested. That can increase the potential for compound returns.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
In other words, your money is working like a dog while you can be sleeping like one and snoring like one too. You'll never picture your money the same way again. Betterment, the automated investing and savings app that makes your money hustle. Visit betterment.com to get started. Investing involves risk. Performance is not guaranteed. Surge Engine is sponsored by Viore.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Viore is a new perspective on performance apparel. It's perfect if you're sick and tired of traditional old workout gear. Everything is designed to work out in, but it doesn't feel or look like it. It's extremely comfortable. You'll want to wear it all the time. I promise you it is more comfortable than whatever you're wearing right now. The product is incredibly versatile.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
It can be used for just about any activity, running, training, swimming, yoga, but it's also great for my favorite form of exercise, which is lounging on a sofa. Also, Viore is 100% offsetting their carbon footprint. They're using better sustainable materials for their products to empower your best active life. Viore is an investment in your happiness.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
For our listeners, Viore is offering 20% off your first purchase. Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at viore.com slash pjsearch. That's Viore, V-U-O-R-I dot com slash pjsearch. Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but you'll also enjoy free shipping on any US orders over 75 bucks and free returns.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Go to viore.com slash pjsearch and discover the versatility of Viore clothing. Surge Engine is brought to you by Fabric. As parents, you do everything you can to set your kids up for a successful future. Academics, team sports, college admissions. But what about getting started financially when they're out on their own?
Search Engine
The Bidding War
So in 1787, someone killed an animal, someone else lettered words onto its skin, Copies were made. And at the time, those physical artifacts hadn't been considered especially valuable. But later that year, a country had been born. Five years after that, that country had invented the dollar. And then a lot of other things happened, some of which you've been alive for.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Fabric makes it easy for you to set up an investment account for your child now that grows with them and helps prepare for their financial future. Fabric by Gerber Life was designed by parents for parents to make it easy to plan for and manage your family's financial path. With a kid's investment account from Fabric, you can start investing in your child's future today.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to help protect their family. Start investing in your child today at meetfabric.com slash search. That's meetfabric.com slash search. M-E-E-T fabric.com slash search. This is a paid promotion for the Fabric UGMA product and not for investment advisory services.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Portfolios managed by Fort Washington Investment Advisors, Inc., custodial services provided by Apex Clearing Corporation. All investing is subject to risk. Terms apply. Learn more at meetfabric.com. Chapter 3. After the Revolution Deadlines. People like to complain about them, but the truth is deadlines can, in the right circumstances, create miracles. Like, really.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
There's something about a good deadline that can draw a team together like a school of fish. No real boss necessary. The deadline is the boss. There's this almost ecstatic clarity of purpose that can take hold up until the moment the deadline is over, at which point the whole thing falls apart like a dream. Or so I've heard.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Anyway, something like that seemed to happen post-auction for Constitution Dow. Not that the team became particularly fractious. More like general miscommunication and mild disorder flourished post-auction. Part of this, I think, was related to something I actually didn't understand until pretty late in my reporting. I started to get a sense of it when I asked Nicole Ruiz this very basic question.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Everything that she's done, 24 years old. And what was the age range of people on the core team? Was it a lot of people in their mid, early 20s, older, younger?
Search Engine
The Bidding War
But so pretty young. Like young to be, I don't know at what age, this isn't true, but young to be controlling a wallet with over $40 million in it.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
I don't mention the ages of the core team here as a dig. Young people are capable of the same successes and failures as anybody else. I'm trying to get at something else here, which is that what stood out to me meeting the core team was just the motleyness of the crew.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
And now, a piece of paper was for sale in an auction house in a place called Manhattan, being broadcast live on a website called YouTube. And two mysterious bidders, representing two different ideas about what should happen next in our very strange country, were about to fight over a scrap of paper they'd both decided was valuable. This is a story about one of those bidders.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Finance people, coders, medium-tier meme lords, a motley crew of people, many of whom were doing jobs that either were not their expertise or were perhaps several promotions past where they would have been at a regular organization. And what had kept this school of fish together was velocity itself, the speed they had to work at.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
But now that velocity was gone, and what remained was a group of young, exhausted people with a delicate and thorny problem to solve. The money. What was to be done about all the money? $47 million of donated Ethereum, collected from just under 20,000 people, medium contribution, 200 bucks. It all had to be refunded to that raucous crowd of DAO contributors. The core team had promised to do it.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
But in the days after the auction, there were conflicting messages about how exactly that refund process would work. By the end of the week, what they said was, yes, there would be refunds, but the DAO would not cover the Ethereum gas fees, which are expensive.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
It meant that there were people who had donated $20 or $50 who were now understanding that the fees on their refunds would exceed the refunds themselves. And they were angry. angry about the money, angry about the communication around it. I asked Brian Wagner, another core team member, about this.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Do you feel like you learned that it's more fun to start a revolution than to govern?
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Frustration with the Dow seemed to reach its peak the Sunday after the auction and crested through the following week. But over Thanksgiving weekend, it disappeared in the face of something unexpected and deeply hilarious. On December 1st, the headline in Forbes read, crypto investors wanted to buy the Constitution. Instead, they birthed another hyped-up meme coin.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
That coin was the People Token, the coin that ConstitutionDAO had given its contributors as a share in the DAO. Should have been nearly worthless, since the group had failed to acquire the asset that would have backed it, the United States Constitution. But now, for reasons no one was entirely clear on, a bunch of traders suddenly wanted to buy that coin.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
A lot of this interest was coming from crypto traders in China. The best rumor I heard explaining this was that crypto in China is considered anti-Chinese government. These investors may have liked a coin whose symbolic value was tied to democratic revolution. Who knows? But whatever the cause, the price of the People token shot up. Way up. At its height, a 3,700% increase.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Which meant that the small investors in ConstitutionDAO, the people who had not been able to get their refunds, they had now won a minor lottery.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
There's so many of these like things here. Yeah. In the end, Paki left Constitution Down the way he entered it. A crypto enthusiast with a good story about the fortune that he'd almost won. That is our story on Crypto Island this week. A disclaimer, if I have accidentally given you the impression that you should run out and start investing in a weird crypto project... Please do not do that.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
This is a very hard to navigate space. I am puzzling it out one story at a time. And if you're along with me on this series, if you're learning from me, just don't. Nothing here makes sense. Nothing is fixed. On that note, mystery bidder Ken Griffin, the billionaire who won the Constitution, announced this month that his firm will now start investing in cryptocurrency.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
That old jihadist call against the dollar. Everything changes, man. We first aired that story in 2022. Since then, Ken Griffin still owns the Constitution. He's loaned it to the Crystal Bridges Museum in Bentonville, Arkansas. You could go see it there. Nicole Ruiz is not working on any crypto projects now. She's a stay-at-home mom trying to build a big homeschooling community in Brooklyn.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Joining us is ConstitutionDAO's... Crypto investors buying the Constitution? I'll be honest with you. When I first heard about all this, my reaction was, Come on, guys. Like, I felt the same way I did when I visited LA and saw that the basketball stadium there had been renamed the Crypto.com Arena. Did these guys really have to put their names on everything?
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Paki McCormick, still in crypto. His newsletter, Not Boring, is going strong. This episode of Crypto Island was produced and edited by Shruti Panamaneni, fact-checking by Elizabeth Moss, sound design and mixing from Stephen Jackson and Phil Demachowski at the Audio Non-Visual Company. Theme song by Christine Andrews. See you next week.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
The way I imagined this Constitution thing had happened was a couple of dudes who'd gotten rich off Bitcoin, maybe they were 23, probably they were 23, were just stamping their name on one more thing. It really annoyed me. That's how I felt then. But now, I think what was happening was much more complicated, much more interesting.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
But at the time, annoyed by the intrusion of crypto into one more sphere of my life, I ignored it. I didn't even see who won. And I didn't bother to learn what it meant that these mystery bidders had organized themselves into something called a DAO. But that would prove to be important. In case you are now where I was then, let me just give you a quick explanation of what DAOs are.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
DAO stands for Decentralized Autonomous Organization. What you need to know is that a DAO is like two different things that you're familiar with that have been Frankensteined together. So a DAO starts out as a crowdfunding campaign. Say I wanted to start a podcast company. I really don't, but say I did.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
I'd go online, I'd tell strangers I wanted to raise a bunch of their crypto, they'd hand it over, we'd have a big pot, and since this is a podcast company, we'd call it Podcast DAO. But then part two of what makes a DAO a DAO is that if you had given me crypto to start Podcast DAO, you'd get a digital coin in exchange, a pod coin. And pod coin would represent your share in Podcast DAO.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
So this is sort of like a stock, you could sell it on an exchange, you could buy more of it. Except, PodCoin would also give you very real voting rights in how Podcast DAO was run. In theory, and sometimes in practice, these DAOs do not have a president, they don't have a board of directors, they're run democratically by the people who have funded them.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
As a person who just wanted to understand what was happening and why, I found the internet even less useful than usual. So we decided to do our own research. I didn't want to know if crypto was good or bad. I mean, it was internet money. What I wanted to know was why this was happening. What, if anything, it meant for a society to suddenly both worship and feud over internet money.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
It is a very weird fusion of some populist, collectivist, almost communist ideas mixed with very late-stage internet hypercapitalism. My curiosity about DAOs only grew this winter, as a series of new ones appeared, striking seemingly at random with new, absurd acts of commerce. The next really good one was Spice DAO. Maybe you've heard of Spice DAO.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
This was the one that took place at a Christie's auction instead of Sotheby's, and instead of trying to buy the Constitution, this DAO wanted to buy storyboards for an unmade version of the film Dune from the 1970s. The plan? Use the storyboards as inspiration for a Web3-native animated television series. Christie's estimated value for these storyboards? $38,000 max.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
The DAO spent $3 million acquiring them, even though, obviously, owning physical storyboards does not give anyone the right to make content based off of them. What was going on here? The internet seemed to believe these DAOs were just run by people who were hilariously incompetent. Others assumed this was fraud.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
I sort of wondered if it was maybe something closer to a new religion, but I didn't know, and I wanted to. I wanted to get closer to one of these things.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
So recently I found myself embedded in the Discord server for a DAO who had not yet really announced themselves to the world. Friesdale. This is tape from an AMA where they're pitching themselves to potential investors. Internet randos. Crypto degenerates. They wanted $9.69 million so they could start buying individual fast food franchises across America.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
So the guy who's talking is part of the DAO's core team. There's always a core team. These are the people who actually set up the back end of the DAO. And crypto being a very pseudonym friendly space, they don't have to use their real names. In this meeting, the Friesdale guys are going by names like Slippery Grease, Mustard and Ketchup. They take a little over a half hour laying out their spiel.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
It's somewhere between a business plan and invasion orders. How they're going to go about converting internet cryptocurrency into ownership of a bunch of different fast food franchises. When they're done, they open the floor for questions, and people have some.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
Like, what does it even mean to run a Baskin-Robbins via internet democracy? What level of decision are we actually going to be able to vote on?
Search Engine
The Bidding War
The result was a nine-part series called Crypto Island. That mini-series was also the precursor to Search Engine, where we found the voice for this show. We tried to strengthen our capacity to be curious and open-minded in the face of a polarizing topic. And in the process, we found some great stories. Classic internet capers in a lysergic new chapter of life online.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
I totally know what he means. My favorite question came from this guy named Andy. Like all truly chaotic questions that have ever been lobbed into an open Q&A, it wasn't really a question. More of a suggestion. Andy?
Search Engine
The Bidding War
I've thought about Andy's suggestion a lot. I think this is what he's saying. They should have a restaurant where the food is free, the employees are either formerly incarcerated or perhaps currently incarcerated people on a work release program, which is cool, but that it should be funded by art on the walls of models. I don't know.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
What I know is I've never felt stoned off a conference call before, and I find this all very delightful. Sure, there are some people in the room asking pedestrian questions about profit. But the overriding feeling, it's more just like we are playing a joke on and with capitalism. By this point, three days in, I was absolutely fascinated by the show I was watching.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
And I started looking for guides who could just start to explain to me what I was seeing. which was difficult. Crypto is this space where if you're outside of it, there just aren't a lot of people who feel like they straddle between the worlds who speak both languages, at least who aren't trying to sell you on their new dog coin or whatever.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
But I did find someone, the person who'd end up being my first guide through this.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
So one of my big questions has just been, who are the brains behind these DAOs? Who's actually on these core teams? And I've been reading a lot of stuff. Crypto Twitter, different newsletters. Paggie's newsletter stood out. He was just one of those rare writers who really was deep in the material but didn't seem completely entranced by it.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
I didn't realize this until we talked, but I think part of the reason I maybe vibed with it was just he was also kind of a newcomer.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
We investigated NFT kidnappings, met apocalyptic crypto believers preparing for the next world war. We wound up at one point on a melting glacier in Greenland. More adventures, honestly, than I'd planned for. So this month, while we work on season two of Search Engine, we're going to play you our favorite four episodes of Crypto Island. I love these stories. I'm so happy to share them with you.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
The way Packy feels about Web3, it sort of reminds me of how I felt at the beginning of the big podcast boom in 2014. Like this new world was being created. And while it wasn't that hard to see its pitfalls, I was just way more excited about charting the possibilities.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
He explained to me that the DAOs I was paying attention to, the ones that really hit the mainstream, those were the big splashy DAOs. But Packy's excitement was about what the DAO structure itself might represent. A new kind of corporation, meaningfully controlled by the people who funded it.
Search Engine
The Bidding War
And he told me that even now there are DAOs trying to solve actual problems, like how to verify carbon offsets in remote locations or DAOs that allow people with rare diseases to fund research into their own treatments.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Hello, search engine listeners. Welcome back. I hope you got your toes into some sand. If not, there's still time. A little news before we begin season two. If you've not signed up, these weeks are your last chance to join Incognito Mode, our paid subscriber feed, before we raise the prices this fall. You get ad-free episodes of the show and no reruns, plus some bonus episodes.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Yeah, I mean, it was interesting. I was watching Tim Walls, like, his first rally speech with Harris last night. We're talking Wednesday, August 7th. And I have not done that that often. Like, I haven't watched rally speeches that often. And it was interesting because had I seen it on social media, there was a seven-second clip where he made a couch joke, which, like, whatever.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I think I'm supposed to read this part super fast, so I'm going to read this part super fast. Ready? Disclaimer, pay to add from Spot Pet Insurance. Waiting periods, annual deductibles, co-insurance, benefit limits, and exclusions may apply. For all terms, visit spotpetins.com slash sample policy.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Like, there's not that much to learn other than, like, the meme button got pressed again. Watching him for 18 minutes, which is as long as he spoke, like, I felt a little bit the feeling that I think I'm pursuing, which is, what are they trying to say about America right now? I could kind of see.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Like, I could kind of see a person who, to me, and I think this was also your interview with him, where he was trying to find a way to take more recent, more progressive ideas and convert them into a language that felt more traditional and American. And I was like, okay, I get that. Like, I get that argument. I can follow that argument. Yeah.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Insurance plans are underwritten by either Independent American Insurance Company or United States Fire Insurance Company and produced by Spot Pet Insurance Services, LLC. Okay. Are we recording? We're recording. Yes. Ezra, I'm going to read you an intro. You ready? I'm always ready. Okay.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
You know, it's a pleasure to be here. I feel like what I am learning is I don't need to incrementally follow everything that happens in the election. I don't need to refresh Nate Silver's website every day unless I want to. And like, I do find this idea that secret information, which is always what I'm pursuing because it feels like it has the frisson of what's interesting, is less valuable.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Like, look at what they've said, look at what they're saying, look at what they've written, and look at where their party is if you want to understand what might actually happen.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
We're going to take a short break, and then I will ask Ezra, a person who finds the conflict in romantic comedies stressful, how it came to pass that at the beginning of this year, in February, he went on the internet and suggested President Joe Biden should no longer be the Democratic nominee, even though it made lots of people yell at him. Search Engine is brought to you by Fresh Direct.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I really like FreshDirect. When I go to the grocery store, for some reason, my brain goes into screensaver mode, and it takes me forever, and I get lost, and I come back with half of the things I actually need. So I end up saving hours a week just using FreshDirect. FreshDirect is farm to kitchen, food sourced directly from farmers, fishermen, and ranchers, and delivered straight to your door.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Because of this, I'm paying for the quality of food, rather than just paying someone to go to a store for me. FreshDirect says they are seven days fresher than the grocery store. And honestly, you can tell the difference. The convenience is unbeatable. You can grocery shop from your office or your couch whenever you want. The most recent thing I ordered from FreshDirect was a fennel bulb.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I mean, I had other stuff too, but the fennel was really good. For over 20 years, Fresh Direct has been delivering the freshest fruits, vegetables, and meats to the tri-state area. Don't take my word for it. Try to believe it with $50 off your first order. Go to freshdirect.com and use code SEARCHENGINE. That's freshdirect.com, code SEARCHENGINE, for new customers to save $50 on their first order.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Terms and restrictions apply. See site for details. SEARCHENGINE is brought to you by Rosetta Stone. There's a lot of reasons to learn a new language. One of my favorites, cognitive benefits, improved brain function. My brain has not been very good. Studies have shown that learning a new language can improve memory, problem solving skills, and even delay the onset of dementia.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Way, way, way back last January, there was a search engine question I wanted us to try to ask but never did, which was, how long am I allowed to just ignore the presidential election? I felt like very sure that there was going to be a moment where I was going to completely seize my attention, but I wondered how long I could reasonably fend that moment off. Anyway, we didn't do that story.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
It might be too late for me, but it's not too late for you. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app. It truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. Rosetta Stone has been a trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Lifetime membership has all 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. Search Engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine. That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. Okay, I want to transition to asking you about an earlier part in this election cycle and somewhat release this idea of what people say in private and in public. In February, you published an episode of your podcast called Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden. It was a big deal.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
You were saying something other people in media mostly weren't, which is that the perception, at least, of Joe Biden is too old could be a problem. It could get worse. And it might be worth it for Democrats to consider doing something dramatic. That was a time where I know there were people who felt that privately, but it wasn't something that most people wanted to say publicly.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
So I just wanted to talk to you about your decision to do that. Like, first of all, how did you even notice that this was a problem?
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Because the Super Bowl interview, like, typically speaking, whoever's president gives a super, super softball interview during the Super Bowl on television.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
July happened. Mid-July was where, for me, I think for most people, this election season entered into a completely insane series of news cycles. You probably shouldn't compare these things to TV shows, but it really was like every week was another finale. The stunningly bad Biden debate, the Trump assassination attempt, Biden's withdrawal from the race, Kamala's rise, the Democrats' veep stakes —
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
When you publish that, like, you're sort of saying like, hey, everybody might be like not saying something because they think there are no options, but there are options, which is fundamentally an optimistic message. What were you expecting the reaction to be?
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
My nervous system has been fully plugged back into the social media internet in a way it hasn't since maybe the Trump presidency.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Every Nate Silver election model update, every incremental piece of news, each new line of attack, I am monitoring this election as if I am running in it, which does not seem totally optimal, either as a human being or even just as a citizen trying to understand the arguments that Harris and Trump are making for what America is or where it should go next. And I wondered...
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I mean, it's funny, though, it's sort of evidence of the thing you were saying in the first part of this interview, which is like, When you made that call, like, my feeling listening to that piece back in February was, like, it made me feel relieved because I felt like there was this thing that people didn't want to entirely address.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Like, in my own mind, like, I would see clips of Biden not looking great and think, oh, those Republican video editors, they're doing it again. And it made me understand, like anybody else, I can be captured by ideology and miss things and, like, convince myself of things and whatever. Like, I saw my own...
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And then, like, having someone just say something that on some level I think I understood and on another level I didn't want to, I found to be sane-making. But it's interesting when you describe the process by which you arrived at the understanding of what you wanted to say, it's not like...
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
You were walking down a sidewalk in Brooklyn and a shadowy Democratic operative leaned over and said, like, hey, Joe Biden's not doing so good. It's like you looked at public statements and you looked at the choices you would expect a candidate to be making publicly versus the ones he was making. And you had enough information to know something.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Is there a sane way to follow this election? I thought I would bring that question to Search Engine's outside sanity consultant, Ezra Klein. Ezra is the host of The Ezra Klein Show and a columnist at The New York Times. He has followed more than one presidential election. Ezra, welcome back to Search Engine. Hey, Paige. It's good to be here. It's good to have you.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
We just published an episode on that feed. It's a conversation between me and Kelvasane. We cover a lot of ground, including some additional information about Berghain, where Kelva sort of tricked me into revealing whether I got in or not. Also, Kelva revealed the identity of the musician whose name we had to bleep out in our episode, How Do I Find New Music Now That I'm Old and Irrelevant?,
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
So I'm just going to tell you the plan. It's going to be, like, part one, sort of your evolution as a person following elections and, like, how your approach has evolved over the years. Part two is going to be about, like, this thing you did in February. Part three is going to be, like, specifically this crazy election. Like, how do you follow it? Does that make sense? Great. Okay. So part one...
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I mean, the other reason though, it's like you're saying, okay, part of the reason you saw what you saw and said what you said is because you're an institutionalist who still believes in parties.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
The other thing you're describing though, is that there was this huge conventional wisdom and you were choosing to say something that was at least against the public online conventional wisdom, whatever the voters thought. I, you know, when we spoke last year, you were talking about how you think it is good to avoid social media, both because it
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
it sort of like has a way of infiltrating the way you think about the world. And After your February piece, I peaked on social media. I saw someone saying that your eyes should be scooped out with a spoon. Really? Yes. Seems a little extreme. I thought it was a little extreme. I saw a lot of people across the political spectrum expressing a lot of anger.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Do you think your ability to say the thing you saw or see the thing you saw was also influenced by the fact that you were not reading comments from people saying that your eyeballs should be scooped out?
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And why? Just because it would have felt more like you were stepping off a ledge or stepping away from people who you're supposed to agree with?
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
You have watched many elections. Were you as this attentive to your student body election in high school? When did you decide you wanted to pay more attention to this than the median person?
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
We're going to take a short break and then Okay, fine. We have some guidelines for how to pay attention to a normal election. But what if, for some reason, there was a super compressed 90-day hyper campaign where all caps news headlines were happening every week? How would you sanely follow that? Plus, Ezra Klein gives me permission to do something real bad for me. That's after the break.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Surge Engine is sponsored by Viore. Viore is a new perspective on performance apparel. It's perfect if you're sick and tired of traditional old workout gear. Everything is designed to work out in, but it doesn't feel or look like it. It's extremely comfortable. You'll want to wear it all the time. I promise you it is more comfortable than whatever you're wearing right now.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
The product is incredibly versatile. It can be used for just about any activity, running, training, swimming, yoga, but is also great for my favorite form of exercise, which is lounging on a sofa. Also, Viore is 100% offsetting their carbon footprint. They're using better sustainable materials for their products to empower your best active life. Viore is an investment in your happiness.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
For our listeners, Viore is offering 20% off your first purchase. Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at viore.com slash pjsearch. That's Viore, V-U-O-R-I dot com slash pjsearch. Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but you'll also enjoy free shipping on any US orders over 75 bucks and free returns.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Go to viore.com slash pjsearch and discover the versatility of Viore clothing. Search Engine is brought to you by Shopify.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
When you think about businesses whose sales are rocketing, like Feastables by Mr. Beast or Thrive Cosmetics, or Silicon Valley's weekend uniform supplier, Cotopaxi, sure, you think about an innovative product, but an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business, making selling, and for shoppers, buying, simple. For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Nobody does selling better than Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling, on the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Mr. Beast uses.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com slash S-E-N-G, all lowercase. Go to Shopify.com slash S-E-N-G to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com slash S-E-N-G. Surge Engine is brought to you by Rocket Money. I have used Rocket Money both to find subscriptions that I forgot about to cancel and also just to monitor my spending.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And I can tell you, August was a horrific month for my finances. How much do you think you're paying in subscriptions every month? The answer, probably more than you think. Over 74% of people have subscriptions they've forgotten about. I certainly did. Getting rid of it feels like getting free money in your pocket.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Thanks to Rocket Money, I'm no longer wasting money on subscriptions I didn't even remember I had. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. With Rocket Money, I have full control over my subscriptions and a clear view of my expenses.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I can see all of my subscriptions in one place. And if I see something I don't want, Rocket Money can help me cancel it with a few taps. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com slash search. That's rocketmoney.com slash search. rocketmoney.com slash search.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Okay, so generally speaking, social media, not a great information gathering tool. Generally speaking, looking at what the candidates are saying or have said publicly is helpful. Generally speaking, like looking at where their party is will tell you a lot more than sort of like some incremental piece of gossip that came out.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
For the specific moment we're in, which is that there's three months of this election, it is like – I mean, you would know better than me, but to my view, a historically unprecedented – it just feels like a very over-plotted election. A lot of stuff has been happening a lot. Everything's compressed. It's very exciting. I find that like – my ability to disconnect seems to be very bad.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
How would you stay sane in this last stretch? What would you recommend to a more normal person for the next 90-ish days?
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Okay, well, then maybe this is how I think about it, okay? Like, sometimes when you go on vacation, you start vaping. But you know that when you come home, you don't want to vape anymore.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And perhaps like if I'm trying to evolve into someone who is more conscientious about where I put my attention, of all the things to pay attention to, a presidential election, even if you're paying attention to it in a somewhat deranged way, isn't the worst. So if I'm going to like throw some of my better practices out the window for the next few months, I don't mind that.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And honestly, like saying that I'm going to do anything else is just pretending anyway. Like what would I text people about all day?
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
But wait, so do election years to you feel like January at the gym for a gym rat where you're like, oh, everybody shows up now, but like they're kind of showing up at the wrong part or in the wrong way?
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
So it's sort of like, it's okay to pay attention to these things, as long as you understand that it is a froth around the thing and not the thing itself?
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Ezra Klein. He's a columnist at The New York Times. Ezra, this is very helpful. Thank you.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
If you want to sanely follow this election, you could do worse than tuning into The Ezra Klein Show. They're always great, but they've just been killing it, this election cycle. If you want to insanely follow this election, grab a vape. I'll see you on social media. Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Shruthi Pinamaneni.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Before they fall into some gentle confusion that makes them fight with each other.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And it's produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Fact-checking this week by Holly Patton. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Armin Bizarian. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Reese-Dennis. Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Perrello, and John Schmidt. And to the team at Odyssey, J.D.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchison, Matt Casey, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schaaf. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at UTA. If you'd like to support the show and get access to our incognito mode feed with no ads, no reruns, and bonus episodes, wow, that's a deal, head to surgeengine.show.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
You can also submit a question for the show there, whether you're a paid subscriber or not. And you can follow and listen to Search Engine for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. We're so glad to be back. See you next week.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
It feels like having a doctor's visit in the future that gets more and more tense. I don't enjoy them either. I'm sometimes slightly confused by people who do. I'm like, do you really like excitement that much? But how have you, over the years, how has the way you follow elections evolved?
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
You can find this conversation if you go to searchengine.show and sign up for incognito mode. Okay, some ads, and then our season begins. Search Engine is brought to you by Spotpet. Searching listeners know that I love my dog more than anything else in this world. I want to be buried in a pyramid with him when he dies or when I die. Whoever goes first, we're going together.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
One of the ways that I'm following the selection is listening to your show.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
It's a great show, particularly right now. There's a moment, and it would not even count as a moment for you, I think, this week, you were doing a quick episode after the Walls nomination, or the Walls choice, where you were talking to your senior editor, Claire. Claire Gordon, yeah.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
there was this moment where you're talking to her and just very quickly and concisely, you laid out, look, here is the argument that I think the Democrats are making about the country right now. Here is the argument that I think the Republicans are making. Here's like which one I find more persuasive and why.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And it made me realize like when I watch elections, part of what I miss and what frustrates me It's like, I'll watch a debate, I'll watch a rally speech. I don't get a coherent argument from it almost ever. Like, what I hear usually, whether it's a Democrat or a Republican, is somebody saying a lot of things that are very general about America. Like, families are good. Like, America is great.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And then a bunch of facts that I feel like I need to quickly on my phone go look at a chart and figure out how true or not true it is. Like, I find political messaging, like... Normally, I can understand a story. I find those stories impossible to understand. And I'm curious, like, obviously, you are following elections at a level that most people just don't need to.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
But being able to get to the place where you just hear the argument clearly, whether you agree with it or not, seems valuable. And I'm wondering if you can explain how you learned to do that.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I want to share a message from our trusted companion in helping you be ready for any unexpected vet visits. Spot Pet Insurance. Spot Pet Insurance is your virtual ally against the unexpected. With Spot Plans, you can receive up to 90% cash back on eligible vet bills, helping to transform unforeseen expenses into manageable moments of care for your cherished pets.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Yeah, I do. So, okay, so just to say, part of it is, like, definitely the anxious click, click, click, click, click thing is, like, the same part of my brain that will monitor almost any process on the internet. Like, right now, I ordered some mayonnaise. I want it to know what is showing up there. I've been, like, refreshing the tracking number on internet mayonnaise that I ordered.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
And, like, the election is perhaps a higher-stakes version of finding out when the internet mayonnaise arrives. But I also want to understand their arguments, and I would love to hear the best way to do that. I think the other thing, and maybe this plays into it, is, like...
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I get frustrated trying to follow the election on social media because I feel like I see people make broad and general statements about what everybody believes that feel really unsupported by evidence and more like what the people on their Twitter feed believe. And...
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
I, besides wanting to understand the arguments, sometimes a story I tell myself is like, okay, maybe an election is a moment where I could understand the country I'm living in better. Like, I can understand where people are in all these arguments that we're having all the time and whether people have moved at all, which maybe isn't too far from the first thing that I would want.
Search Engine
Is there a sane way to follow this election?
Spot Pet Insurance plans go beyond just offering coverage for accidents and illnesses. Access to a 24-7 vet telehealth hotline is included with every policy, so you can ask an expert all your questions. You can also enhance your plan with their preventative care benefit, helping ensure routine wellness, vaccines, and more can be covered too. Head over to spotpet.com for an instant quote today.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
This episode of Search Engine is also brought to you by 1Password. How do you make a password that's strong enough no one will guess it and impossible to forget, and do it for 100 different websites, and make it so everyone in your company can do the same without ever needing to reset them? Sounds impossible, unless you have 1Password.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
And why? At what point did they realize our society will function better if once a year we can take the human desire to cast some of ours out and formalize it?
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
I think we both know where this is going, but before it does, it is only fair to acknowledge that the mob was not always wrong. Athenians used ostracism to remove some very dangerous tyrants, people who may have broken no laws, but who did threaten society.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
The mob also, I mean, this one's just funny, they ostracized Aristides the Just in part because they were so irritated by his nickname, which, to be fair, does sound a little bit like virtue signaling. Over time, as you'd expect, elites began just casting each other out of society for all sorts of reasons, some fair, some not.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Contact your participating dealer or visit FordService.com for important details and limitations. Welcome to Search Engine. I'm PJ Vogt. No question too big. No question too small. No question too old. We're going to do something different this week. How often do you think about the Roman Empire? How often do I think about the Roman Empire? Yeah. Maybe three or four times a month.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Athenian democracy was not concerned, as we sometimes are, with due process. it was concerned strictly with amplifying the voice of the people. And today, we question some of the Athenian people's choices, like when they tried, convicted, and executed Socrates.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Socrates, perhaps the greatest philosopher in the history of the West, found guilty of being insufficiently pious, of corrupting the youth with his strange ideas.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
This is part of what's so confusing about how to think about the first democracy. The Athenians gave us Socrates. They also killed him. And every democracy since has had to wrestle with this moment, this moment where the people got exactly what they wanted. And how much were the American founders thinking about Athenian democracy when they designed our democracy?
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
James Madison, one of our founders, wrote that had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob. And in Athens, unlike in America, the leaders really learned to fear the people. Generals who lost wars, wars that people had voted for, were sometimes executed, often exiled.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Sometimes the people would ostracize a general, then a few years later realize they wanted him back and have to hit undo. It was a raucous, I would suggest insane way to run a city-state. And over time, the leaders who would learn to thrive in a society like this would be the ones who would help destroy it. After the break, a new word becomes popular in Athens, demagogue.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Today's episode is presented by SAP Business AI, revolutionary technology, real-world results. Hey, PJ. Hey, Chris. How's it going? Can you hear me?
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Yeah. I'm so sorry for being late. I understand that you have an incredibly busy schedule. Oh, don't worry. Recently, I was over 15 minutes late for an early morning conversation with my very understanding friend, Chris. Years ago, we worked in the same office. He was on the business side. At the time, you were not a C-suite executive. Now, you're, I think, my only friend who's a C-suite executive.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
These days, Chris is a successful founder. He started a company that helps AI models get smarter. As a business executive, Chris says AI is a helpful tool that he uses in his day to day.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Ready to elevate your business? With SAP Business AI, you can grow revenue, increase efficiencies, and manage risks seamlessly. It's relevant, reliable, and responsible. AI is embedded into SAP solutions to enable businesses to drive immediate business impact with AI embedded across their organization.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
It can also help you make confident decisions based on AI grounded in their business data and put AI into practice with the highest ethical, security, and privacy standards. SAP Business AI. Revolutionary technology. Real world results. This episode is also brought to you by LinkedIn. When you're hiring for your small business, you want to find quality professionals that are right for the role.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
That's why you have to check out LinkedIn Jobs. LinkedIn Jobs has the tools you need to help find the right professionals for your team faster and for free. I like to use LinkedIn to find out who in my industry is looking for a job and if there's anybody who could help us here at Search Engine. LinkedIn isn't just a job board.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
LinkedIn helps you hire professionals you can't find anywhere else, even those who aren't actively searching for a new job, but might be open to the perfect role. In a given month, over 70% of LinkedIn users don't visit other leading job sites. So if you're not looking on LinkedIn, you're looking in the wrong place. On LinkedIn, 86% of small businesses get a qualified candidate within 24 hours.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Hire professionals like a professional on LinkedIn. Two and a half million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring. If you want to join them, post your job for free at LinkedIn.com slash PJSearch. That's LinkedIn.com slash PJSearch to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Welcome back to the show. Chapter 4, Greek Tragedy.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
When our story began, Athens had been a third-tier city-state, a backwater. But by the middle of the 5th century BC, that had changed. They defeated the Persians while fighting alongside the Spartans. They dominated islands like Naxos, Ahina, Evia. Throughout the Aegean, all these cities are paying tribute back to Athens. Things look good.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
The threat to Athenian democracy when it arrives, it won't come from one of Athens' neighbors. It'll come from its people. One of the early ideas in Athenian democracy had been that all these random people who were being pulled off their farms and into public service, they should get paid. A good idea, which spun into something else.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
What you would get paid as a laborer for one day, something like that. It's funny, I have to say, on first blush, the idea of paying people to vote does not seem so bad to me. It would mean more people voted, maybe more working people voted. But what happened in Athens is that the demagogues realized offering to pay people to do things was a very good way to buy public support.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
A few times a week, I'd say. Last fall, this meme circulated where people, mostly women on TikTok, asked their husbands or boyfriends how often they thought about the Roman Empire.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
So with the crowd voting for what the crowd wanted, government spending in fifth century BC Athens starts to go a little cuckoo bananas. For instance, the tax revenue that was being used to fund the military, some demagogue suggests, why don't we just use that money to fund entertainment instead? More festivals, more theater, more religious holidays.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
The crowd, in its infinite wisdom, agrees, which required politicians to find even more innovative ways to accumulate silver. They borrowed money from the goddess Athena.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
So they would, just to make sure I understand, so the state would like, you know, mine silver from the mines. It would have reserve. Some of those coins would be given as tribute to the gods, but they're not like throwing it down a well where they can't get it. It's available. And so then you can borrow from the gods.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
So the Athenians were melting down their statues of the gods for gold. They're also spending the money they'd set aside for the gods to fund endless wars.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
So you think in some ways the mistake they made is just like they overspent.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
There must have been Athenians who knew that if the state paid everybody to vote, paid everybody to serve on the 1,000-seat juries, paid people to go to Athenian Coachella, that eventually the need for silver would force them into a war they would lose. Thucydides actually describes how the few Athenians who knew also knew to shut up.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
He writes, quote, with this enthusiasm of the majority, the few that liked it not feared to appear unpatriotic by holding up their hands against it, and so kept quiet.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
At least in the Athenian story, the desire to be democratic led to people voting for wanting more money, essentially, or wanting to be paid to do more things, which necessitated more imperialism, which they didn't have a problem with. There's no Howard Zinn of Athens.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Chapter 5, the end. The inevitable finally happens in 338 BC. The Athenians have voted too many times to pay themselves, not enough times to fund the military that they keep sending off to fight. Some generals now are even relying on their own private resources to keep things together. Athens ends up losing a battle, finally, that it can't bounce back from.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Philip of Macedon, father of Alexander the Great, he is the one to conquer the Athenians at the Battle of Chaeronea. The Athenians are no longer a sovereign people. The first democratic experiment in human history is over about 200 years after it had begun. When we picture the end of our democracy, lately, people talk about fascism, how it's gonna be the Handmaid's Tale or Germany in 1933.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
But there was a third type of guy, never mentioned in this meme, and that guy was me. I don't think about the Romans much, but I do think about ancient Greece a fair amount of the time. Specifically, I think about ancient Greece as a coping mechanism. When I get deeply upset about our democracy, I think about theirs.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
But the end of Athenian democracy wasn't really like that. In fact, there were plenty of Athenians who were pretty okay with life under the new reign of Philip.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
1Password combines industry-leading security with award-winning design to bring private, secure, and user-friendly password management to everyone. All you have to remember is the one strong account password that protects everything else. Your logins, your credit cards, secure notes, or the office Wi-Fi password. I have been using 1Password forever.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
They lost that. Right. And the moment where the most important decisions are not the city-state's decision to make, I feel like you don't call that a democracy anymore. You're a place that gets to vote on some things, but you're not a democracy.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Jay says a strange thing about studying the Athenians as a historian is how much they thought about how they'd be perceived by future historians. In a weird way, how much they were thinking about him. America will one day end. Everything does. We know there will be some future society that looks back on us, tries to understand the choices we made so that it can better understand itself.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Somewhere, many centuries ahead, there's another Jay, some devoted scholar, reaching back to this moment, asking why. Jay says that he started to fall deeper into Athens when he became more disappointed in the present. At first, it felt like an escape from the modern politicians he couldn't stand listening to in America.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
But more and more, he found himself recognizing us in the Athenians and really seeing the truth in what Thucydides had said, that human nature itself is a constant.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Jay retreated into Thucydides. And later, I retreated into Jay's work. Not because I was disappointed in democracy. I was disappointed in the internet. The same way Athenian democracy naturally created demagogues and over time drove most other people away, I feel like our social media actually worked in a very similar way. And so for a while, I turned away from the internet.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Athens was the very first democracy in human history, one that faced some of the same problems we faced, some problems of their own, and then died in spectacular fashion. I know this might not be the escapism some people are looking for this week, but walk with me for a sec. Any book can be a self-help book. And for the past few years, mine has been What's Wrong with Democracy?
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Honestly, I think I even turned away from society. But here's a good sentence. We Greeks believe that a man who takes no part in public affairs is not merely lazy, but good for nothing. That's Thucydides.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Despite his very dark view of human nature, his faith that people were ultimately ruled by fear, self-interest, and a desire to be seen favorably by their peers, he still believed we had to show up. We had to show up to a democracy that would always be vulnerable to demagogues, who would stir up crowds for their own short-term gain.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
We had to show up and take our place in a crowd that would often make the wrong choice. We had to show up despite knowing that real leaders would be rare, and when they did arrive, we might just punish them for their honesty. We had to show up despite knowing that human nature itself is an incurable condition, that we're likely to make the same mistakes as our ancestors centuries before.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
The story of Greek democracy is, appropriately, a tragedy. A story whose end was inevitable because of the character of the people in it and the setting in which they found themselves. I understand that not everybody finds a tragedy reassuring, but I do. It helps me to think that the way we are is not new. We're always like this. Or at least, we're always struggling to not be like this.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
We go through moments where humans improbably organize themselves towards something better, more reasonable. And then the madness takes over. And then we begin again. Is there any part of you that just thinks, like, the Athenians had a rough draft number one, the Romans had rough draft number two, America might be rough draft number three? No.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
You don't think there's going to be a rough draft number four? You don't think there should be, or what?
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Right. It just feels like government is our tool. If Thucydides felt that human nature was both a constant and had a dark view of it, then I guess it's easy to think, well, we're not going to change human nature. And so we just need to keep changing the rules around people to try to guide them towards something better.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
From Athenian Practice to American Worship, which is a factual, academic look at the problems of Athenian democracy in the 5th century BC. I spoke to its writer this week. Okay, first things first, can you just introduce yourself?
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Dr. Loren J. Sammons, executive director of the Institute for Hellenic Culture and the Liberal Arts at the American College of Greece. His most recent book is called Pericles and the Conquest of History, a political biography. What's wrong with democracy is harder to find, but you can find it. It's worth looking. After a short break, we have an announcement to make.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
This episode is brought to you in part by Lumen. Lumen is the world's first handheld metabolic coach. It's a device that measures your metabolism through your breath. And on the app, it lets you know if you're burning fat or carbs and gives you tailored guidance to improve your nutrition, workouts, sleep, and even stress management.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
All you have to do is breathe into your lumen first thing in the morning, and you'll know what's going on with your metabolism, whether you're burning mostly fats or carbs. Then, lumen gives you a personalized nutrition plan for that day, based on your measurements. You can also breathe into it before and after workouts and meals, so you know exactly what's going on in your body in real time.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
And lumen will give you tips to keep you on top of your health game. Your metabolism is your body's engine. It's how your body turns food you eat into fuel that keeps you going.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Because your metabolism is at the center of everything your body does, optimal metabolic health translates to a bunch of benefits, including easier weight management, improved energy levels, better fitness results, and better sleep. So if you want to take the next step in improving your health, go to lumen.me slash search to get 15% off your Lumen.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
That's L-U-M-E-N dot M-E slash search for 15% off your purchase. This episode is brought to you in part by Ring. The holidays are almost here. Between traveling, hosting family, and finding the perfect gift, it's such an exciting, busy, and yes, sometimes stressful time. Ring helps you stay connected to home for all the merry moments, even when you're on the go.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
With Ring, you've got your whole home covered. Their video doorbells alert you when gifts arrive, and you can even chat with delivery people to let them know where to leave the packages. The indoor cam is a game changer, so easy to set up. You can use it to check in on your pets when you're away, and with two-way talk, you can even talk to them.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
And if you want privacy, you can just flip the manual cover to turn off the camera and mic. Wherever the holidays take you, Ring makes sure you're always home for the holidays. So head to ring.com to find the latest deals on Ring video doorbells, cams, and alarm kits. Ring makes the perfect gift for everyone on your list. This episode of Search Engine is also brought to you by Rosetta Stone.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
I'll tell you why I wanna learn a new language. I'm going to Amsterdam this week, and the only Dutch words I know are really, really horrific curse words that seem funny until you say them in front of Dutch people.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
A good way to learn non-offensive Dutch would be to use Rosetta Stone, the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app, one that truly immerses you in the language you wanna learn. Rosetta Stone is the trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Spanish, French, Italian, German, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Dutch, not just the curse words, Arabic and Polish. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. Search Engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. That is our show this week. We have a lot more episodes coming up in 2024. We are publishing through the holidays and we will have our final board meeting of the year on Friday, December 6th.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Our board meetings is when we do a Zoom meeting with all of our paid subscribers. Way, way, way too many people to put into a Zoom meeting. It's Athenian democracy up there. One wise man, that's me, the Socrates of my time. Garrett, my Plato, watching in pain as I suffer my last stand before an unreasonable crowd, that's you guys.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Plus, you can ask us where we get ideas for stories or if I'm still friends with people I used to work with. I'm just kidding. Please stop asking that. We will tell you how the business of the show is doing right now. We'll have lots of stats, only some of them concerning. And we'll talk about what we plan to do next. This is only for our paid subscribers, but don't worry.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
If you have not signed up, there's still time. We have a limited amount of paid subscriptions in stock. Hurry, hurry, act now. You can sign up for incognito mode over at searchengine.show. And for everyone who already has, thank you so much. Again, our final board meeting of the year, Friday, December 6th, 1 p.m., I just found out, 1 p.m.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Eastern time, we will be sending out a Zoom link to join week of, knowing me, morning of. Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Shruthi Pinnamaneni, and is produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Fact-checking by Claire Hyman. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Armin Bizarrian.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
One of the ancient historians who Jay thinks about most often is a Greek writer named Thucydides. Jay first encountered his work decades ago as a student.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Reese-Dennis. Thank you to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Perrello, and John Schmidt. And to the team at Odyssey, J.D. Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Colin Gaynor, Matt Casey, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schaaf. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at UTA.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Follow and listen to Surge Engine with PJ Vogt now for free. on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next week. Surge Engine is brought to you in part by Klarnaq. We're all doing a bit more shopping during the holiday season, and it's easy to get overwhelmed with everything on your list. But Klarna is here to be your smarter spending partner.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
You can split your purchases into four interest-free payments, which lets you manage your budget without paying extra. And here's the cool part. Klarna has some other features that help you shop smarter, like their new cashback rewards and a search and compare tool. So whether you're grabbing gifts or just stocking up on the essentials, Klarna helps you get the most value from your purchases.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Klarna is a smart choice to check out with this holiday season. Ready to try it? Choose Klarna at your favorite retailers or shop now at Klarna.com. Disclaimer. California resident loans made or arranged pursuant to a California finance law license. NMLS 135-3190. Klarna balance account required. Klarna may get a commission. Limitation terms and conditions apply.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Thucydides was an elite in Greek society, a general who was exiled from Athens after losing a big battle. He ended up spending time in enemy land, the only place he was welcome for much of his life. Exile is hard on people, but it can be useful for writers, and Thucydides took the opportunity to try to understand Athenian society from his new position outside of it.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
a lot of what Thucydides wrote, you could be forgiven for thinking it was about us today. Complaining about Athens, his hometown around 400 BC, he observed that, quote, most people, in fact, will not take the trouble in finding out the truth, but are much more inclined to accept the first story they hear. Huh.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
I really hate remembering and resetting passwords. I find that the way the app works is very intuitive and easy. 1Password's award-winning password manager is trusted by millions of users and over 100,000 businesses, from IBM to Slack. Right now, search engine listeners get a free two-week trial at 1password.com for your growing business. That's two free weeks at 1password.com.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
So Thucydides is going to be our primary source for this story. And he really was there. He watched the first democracy rise and fall. Chapter one, Athens. When the story begins, around 650 BC, Greece is a series of city-states. Athens was a typical one. The city itself, very small, maybe 10 or 20,000 people live there.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
On the top of the big hill, there's a few temples, some spots for public gatherings. Most people live down below. Eventually, they'll build a city wall. Outside the city, miles and miles of rural farmland, where the majority lived. And then, if you keep traveling further, throughout the Mediterranean, there's something like a thousand other city-states that looked more or less like Athens did.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
These city-states are independently ruled and constantly at war with each other. And like our American states, there are a series of experiments, each representing a different way society could function. Spartans lived in a country with more women's rights, but also lived under military rule. Corinthians knew their state was the wealthy commercial hub, but that it was run by oligarchic elites.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Athens, when our story begins, is not yet known as the home of Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle, as the cradle of Western philosophy and government. Athens is known instead as kind of a backwater.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
You mean that they had like what, I'm from Philadelphia, like they had what Philadelphians have, which is like this feeling of like sort of being sandwiched between places that thought of themselves as greater, like this sort of angry, overlooked feeling?
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
This nation that wanted to write its own epic, it had a plan. Chapter two, the Athenian experiment. Athens' plan to make a name for itself involved constantly picking fights with its neighbors. The Athenians were obsessed with imperialism. That's how they believed they'd get into the history books, as a conquering power. That's their goal.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
But in the 5th century BC, they happen to make what will turn out to be a very consequential choice for human history. They offer widespread voting. There were some other Greek city-states that allowed voting, but it was restricted to small groups of elites. Aristocrats, property owners. In Athens, the politicians start allowing more and more regular people to vote.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Don't let security slow your business down. Go to 1password.com. Search Engine is brought to you by Ford. As a Ford owner, there are lots of choices of where to get your vehicle serviced. You can choose to go to their place, the local dealership, your place, home, apartment, condo, your workplace, even your happy place, like your cottage on the lake.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
This was an extraordinarily radical idea. Of course, there were big groups excluded, women, foreigners, enslaved people. But by the standards of the time, letting the masses vote was unheard of. And what's most interesting is that Athenian voting looks completely different from the voting we do today in America.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Like to them, the idea of an election day where we all show up and pick the politician who will represent us and then get a little sticker afterwards, the Athenians would have found this comical. In Athens, what would happen instead was much more exciting.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
The Athenians had a stone machine called a claritarion, which is sort of hard to picture, but you could just imagine instead if you want the random ball jumbler from a bingo hall. The Claritarion helped randomly assign random citizens to the Athenian version of Congress. There, they would serve for a year. You didn't vote for your congressman.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
You became one, at random, and then got to put forth laws which any other citizen could vote on. If this sounds crazy, it has an upside. The lottery system, sortition, prevents the thing we have, a system where we get to vote for our politicians, but those politicians are usually elites, and wealthy people use their money to influence that vote.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Another Greek writer, Aristotle, foresaw this problem over 2,000 years ago.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
This is something Jay clearly relishes about the Athenians, how their dark view of human nature meant that in some ways they could predict problems with democracy that we encounter as surprises. I had my own moment where I felt a shock of recognition hearing about a different part of Athenian democracy. It had to do with how they ran their justice system.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
So I should say, I first found Jay's book in 2021, which meant I was reading it during a very unique moment in American life. People were angry about society, and that anger was roiling on social media.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
At the time, it felt like every week there were these impromptu public events, some trial by internet, these speedy affairs where some schmo was prated out, almost always found guilty, and then usually ostracized, sometimes permanently, sometimes just temporarily. I witnessed a lot of these events as a spectator. I even reported on a few.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
And then one day, I found myself inside of one as the Shmoe. The main thing I was struck by was how uniquely modern it felt. Even when I tried to write about it, it felt too modern to describe. There were no words, or all the words were wrong. Reading Jay's book, I realized this was not as modern as I had believed.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
What I thought was an unprecedented system of justice was, in fact, a very precedented system of justice. Chapter 3, The People Decide. So just help me picture, like, I'm accused of a crime in ancient Greece. What does my trial look like in Athens?
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
And am I delivering that speech in like, I'm assuming I'm not in a mahogany courtroom. No. Where am I?
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
And how many people are sitting on my jury in a trial? 500, 1,000, sometimes more than that. So I am pleading my case in front of 500 to 1,000. Am I screaming the whole time?
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
Go to your Ford dealer or choose Ford pickup and delivery to have your vehicle picked up, serviced, and brought right back. Or choose mobile service, where a technician will come to you and do routine maintenance right on the spot. Both are complimentary and depend on your location. That's ownership built around you.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
One of the practices the Athenians engaged in that I found very fascinating was that they had a formal system of ostracism. Can you just describe for me how that worked?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Before we begin this week, an announcement. I'm doing a live event in Brooklyn at the Bell House on September 26th at 6.30 p.m. It's with Stephen Dubner from Freakonomics. I'm interviewing him, and he's interviewing me. It's unheard of, it's experimental, it might be chaotic. If you wanna come see it, there might still be tickets. We'll have a link in the show description.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
It's part of why our outrage was so confusing to them. You can shock a turkey to death, but you can't toss them from a plane? It seemed like a strange standard. But in 2018, when Annie arrived in Yellville, she found a town adjusting to life under the new no turkeys from airplanes regime.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Wait, so they threw turkeys off a truck and the turkeys actually, it was from a height at which the turkeys would not, they may not have enjoyed it, but they would not have died?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
A satisfying victory for political moderation in America. Turkeys thrown from a reasonable vehicle, a truck, not an unreasonable one, a plane. I find this whole story nearly perfect. It's dark in a way I appreciate. Parts make me laugh. Other parts kind of hurt. The part that hit me most directly in the chest is this moment where Annie visits a local animal sanctuary.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
This is where the turkeys who have survived the plane drop and not been eaten have been left to live out the rest of their lives, which must be profoundly confusing lives. At the sanctuary, Annie meets this one turkey named George. In the piece, she writes that this encounter with George made her cry and that she felt surprised by her own reaction. I asked her to read a section from the story.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
There was like two excerpts from that story. I wanted to ask if you could read your own writing. Is that okay?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Go to viore.com slash pjsearch and discover the versatility of Viore clothing. Welcome to Search Engine. I'm PJ Vogt. There's big questions, there's small questions, and then there's moral questions. You can't really answer those in a breezy podcast episode. And if we're being honest, if you are living as a proper adult, nobody else really should answer them for you.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
I mean, when you're writing that, like, you're someone who is actually kind of holding the suffering of many beings in your head. Like, you're making a decision as someone who doesn't eat meat or dairy or eggs to live in a way that is socially inconvenient and a little weird and that everyone's like, are you judging me?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
And because you're like, I just want to make a choice to do something that will cause less suffering. When you encounter... people caring about some turkeys and not caring about other turkeys and throwing turkeys from planes, but then grabbing those turkeys and taking them to sanctuaries.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
When you see people living in a land of what is almost certainly cognitive dissonance, what do you as a human think and feel?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
In other words, the deal Annie made with herself a long time ago was that if she was going to eat animal products, she had to know a lot about the lives of the animals that were providing those products. She could be a vegan and not have to know, or she could eat meat and cheese but have to know.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
She did this because she knew that she had empathy for animals, but she had this intuition, even back then, that the system was set up to estrange her from that empathy.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
What Annie is saying is that this funny moral glitch, that we care about 10 turkeys shot from a plane more than the 46 million turkeys slaughtered for Thanksgiving, that glitch is actually something you could maybe work with. People care. You can start with that. They don't care enough to go vegan en masse, but they do care enough to try a little harder if you give them a way to do it that's easy.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
And the best way to do that might be to improve the underlying food system. The same way nobody really minded a few years ago when we all switched to LED light bulbs. It was just better for the environment. It didn't ask very much of us. Maybe you could do something similar here. That's the good news. But the thing is, right now, our version of that more humane system, it's not working very well.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Annie's second story is about exactly that. It's about dairy and why it's very hard, even if you're willing to pay through the nose, to find milk you could drink in America that's been procured in a way that's really any kinder than the Yellville turkey drop. After the break, the story of cow 13039. Search Engine is brought to you by Rosetta Stone.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
There's a lot of reasons to learn a new language. One of my favorites, cognitive benefits, improved brain function. My brain has not been very good. Studies have shown that learning a new language can improve memory, problem solving skills, and even delay the onset of dementia. It might be too late for me, but it's not too late for you.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app. It truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. Rosetta Stone has been a trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered. Lifetime membership has all 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. Don't put off learning that language.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
There's no better time than right now to get started. Search Engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine. That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. Search Engine is brought to you by Fresh Direct.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
I really like FreshDirect. When I go to the grocery store, for some reason, my brain goes into screensaver mode, and it takes me forever, and I get lost, and I come back with half of the things I actually need. So I end up saving hours a week just using FreshDirect. FreshDirect is farm to kitchen, food sourced directly from farmers, fishermen, and ranchers, and delivered straight to your door.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Because of this, I'm paying for the quality of food, rather than just paying someone to go to a store for me. FreshDirect says they are seven days fresher than the grocery store. And honestly, you can tell the difference. The convenience is unbeatable. You can grocery shop from your office or your couch whenever you want. The most recent thing I ordered from FreshDirect was a fennel bulb.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
I mean, I had other stuff too, but the fennel was really good. For over 20 years, Fresh Direct has been delivering the freshest fruits, vegetables, and meats to the tri-state area. Don't take my word for it. Try to believe it with $50 off your first order. Go to freshdirect.com and use code SEARCHENGINE. That's freshdirect.com, code SEARCHENGINE, for new customers to save $50 on their first order.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Terms and restrictions apply. See site for details. Welcome back to the show. So the second story Annie had for me was not about turkeys. It was about cows, one cow in particular. Okay, so can you just tell me the story of how you first met cow 13039?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Annie says this is significant because typically a whistleblower report might just come from one single person with some cell phone videos. This case was already unusual just in how many people had been alarmed. I've read the report. It's pretty hard to look at.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
What's stuck in my mind are just these close-up shots of cows in the late stages of severe eye infections, with pus or what looks like a bloody hole where an eye should be. There's also just lots of cow skeletons. According to the report, there was at least one instance of mass cow death.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
One of the whistleblowers alleged that a hay delivery had come so late that the hungry cows had stampeded and trampled each other, many dying in the stampede, other cows having to be euthanized soon after. It's grisly. It's also very strange. What made this report so unusual was the specific farm it targeted.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
A family-owned dairy farm with an incredibly sterling reputation, customers paid a premium for their milk. The price works out to over 17 bucks a gallon, in large part because they were told the cows here were treated exceptionally well.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
But sometimes other people can help. The very first episode of our show, our preview episode, was about how sad the monkeys were in the zoo. It was sort of a lark, but I find myself lately thinking more about animals than I ever meant to. I've always loved my dog, but lately I've been thinking about all the other animals, mainly the delicious ones. I think it's mostly a social thing.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
What Annie knows, what I didn't know, is that sometimes photos that look gruesome can just be images of ordinary and acceptable practices at an American dairy farm. Without context, a lot of things look bad. So Annie decides to do some more reporting. She flies to California. She goes to a cow auction house, like where people bid on cows they want to buy.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
According to whistleblowers, cows from the dairy farm had been showing up at this auction house looking very sick.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Wait, can I ask a stupid question? Yeah, of course. So there's like cows that we eat.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Okay, so when a dairy cow, when we are done like getting dairy from a dairy cow and we're talking about a dairy cow going to auction, they're going to auction presumably to be slaughtered and eaten?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Something I didn't notice talking in the room, but which struck me later listening to the tape of this conversation, Annie has a careful and specific way of talking about all this.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
She is someone who, by her current social standards, cares too much about animals, which means in order to fit into our society and in order to have a shot at showing people how she sees things, she has to talk about this stuff pretty gingerly. She has a neutral, almost clinical way of saying, yes, factory farms do force mother cows to be pregnant all the time and take their sons to make dog food.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
But she has to say stuff like that without too much passion. Because someone telling you this stuff, even though it's true, can pretty easily feel like emotional manipulation or breakfast terrorism. It's completely possible we will use animals this way forever. It's also possible we might one day look back at this as barbaric.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
If we do, our descendants will wonder, how did the people who'd already figured out that this was wrong live among the rest of us? They must have felt completely crazy all the time, watching us pet our dogs while drinking a glass of milk. Which brings us back to these dairy cows. We milk them their whole lives.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
When we're done with them, some of them are sent to auction houses, like the one where Annie now found herself.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
My life has quietly filled up with vegans, vegetarians, and meat avoiders. They're not preachy. They're just quietly making a choice next to me, and it's hard not to notice it. I'm a very curious but ultimately pretty lazy person, and the commitment and effort required to not eat what most of society is eating is, I think, beyond me.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
One of the cows from the farm who Annie meets is a small brown cow with the tag number 13039. This was the cow that would grab her attention above all the others. There's a video of you asking about this specific cow. Can you just describe what happens in that video?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Annie was here with some of the whistleblowers. They were helping her understand what she was witnessing.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
This cow's poor health was a strong piece of evidence that the whistleblower report might be accurate. But remember the problem from Yellville. Annie needed to find out not, is there something here that might make people upset? She needed to find out, is an actual rule being broken? You look at this cow and you feel like, as a person, like something here is wrong.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
But lately I was wondering, is there a way to be a little bit better? Like, with climate change. I find the problem interesting, I'm not gonna stop flying, but I'm happy to fly less. I am microdosing climate concern. I'm curious, would it be possible to microdose veganism? By which I mean, what is the minimum effort I could put in to derive the absolute maximum benefit?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
A lot of people have looked at this cow and thought something here is wrong. Maybe this is too basic a question, but is this a crime? Is the right way to think of this as a crime?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Well, it also sort of reminds me of the Yellville story, where it's like, it's both, yes, we have animal cruelty laws, but perhaps how those are going to be interpreted by the local law enforcement is subjective. And in a community where... A lot of people are working in farming. This is their job and they're there every day.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
And they're used to even things like killing animals, which like a lot of Americans would just not want to do. And for them, the idea that like all of a sudden the cops would run in and start arresting people for what was happening to a cow probably just seems completely insane.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
To zoom out here for a second. I have this habit sometimes of being too persuaded by whoever I'm talking to. I find other people's ideas very contagious. But I'm not saying I think the police should be arresting more people for cow mistreatment. It's more just talking to Annie about all this, I realize I've misunderstood vegans, or at least I've misunderstood her.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
I thought the people who didn't eat animal products found the idea of killing animals to be too abhorrent. And sure, some of them do. But vegans like Annie are saying something else. What they're saying is, we've built a system that largely just cares about our food being cheap.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
That system does not care enough about how much pain it inflicts on the animals it depends on, or the environment, or the lives of the workers. And some vegans would like to reform that system. But because the system resists reform, they're abstaining from it instead. I get that now. So, to return to the story of the small brown cow who Annie met, cow 13039, here's how that story ended.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Cow 13039 ended up selling at auction for 10 cents a pound. That worked out to about $119. But even at that price, the cow was a bad deal. She was too sick to have her infected eye removed, and so instead she was condemned, shot by a farmhand about 10 hours after Annie had met her.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Annie kept reporting, and a couple of months later, she decides she's ready to go talk to the people who run the farm. She would go there and they would say the story the whistleblowers were telling her, it wasn't quite true. That the real story was a lot more complicated. The farm's perspective after some ads. Search Engine is brought to you by Shopify.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
When you think about businesses whose sales are rocketing, like Feastables by Mr. Beast, or Thrive Cosmetics, or Silicon Valley's weekend uniform supplier, Cotopaxi, sure, you think about an innovative product, but an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business, making selling, and for shoppers, buying, simple. For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Nobody does selling better than Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling, on the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Mr. Beast uses.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com slash S-E-N-G, all lowercase. Go to Shopify.com slash S-E-N-G to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com slash S-E-N-G. Search Engine is brought to you by Discover Doublenomics. We discuss all things finance and economics here, but have you heard about Doublenomics?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
I talked to a friend of mine who is macrodosing all this, who thinks deeply about this stuff, and we had a conversation I really enjoyed. I'm going to share that conversation with you. This person is a writer who spends a lot of time reporting on animals and our strange relationships to them. The first thing I just need to do is say hello. Can you introduce yourself?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
It's okay if you haven't because we like to keep you in the know and it's extremely niche. Here's an example of Doublenomics. Discover automatically doubles the cashback earned on your credit card at the end of your first year with cashback match. That means with Discover, you could turn $150 cashback to 300. It pays to Discover. See terms at discover.com slash credit card.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Search Engine is brought to you by Betterment. Do you want your money to be motivated? Do you want your money to rise and grind? Do you think your money should get up and work? Don't worry, Betterment is here to help. Betterment is the automated investing and savings app that makes your money hustle.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Their automated technology is built to help maximize returns, meaning when you invest with Betterment, your money can auto adjust as you get closer to your goal, rebalance if your portfolio gets too far out of line, and your dividends are automatically reinvested. That can increase the potential for compound returns.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
In other words, your money is working like a dog while you can be sleeping like one and snoring like one too. You'll never picture your money the same way again. Betterment, the automated investing and savings app that makes your money hustle. Visit betterment.com to get started. Investing involves risk. Performance is not guaranteed. Welcome back to the show.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
So earlier this year, after months of reporting, talking to veterinarians, lawyers, whistleblowers, Annie goes to visit the dairy farm. This is one of the largest organic dairy farms in the country. 4,500 cows producing 4,000 calves per year. It's actually on multiple farm sites with hours of driving time between them.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
If you were reincarnated as a cow in America, this would be one of the farms you would think you would want to be reincarnated into.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
This dairy farm, I should say, has more than 10 different industry certifications. The fancy labels you would see on the side of the milk carton, regenerative organic, certified humane, USDA organic.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Which just means that coming into this final leg of her reporting, Annie was trying to figure out how a farm with so many gold stars for how they treated their cows could end up with a cow like a cow 13039. Can you just describe what it's like to meet the family at the farm?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
The Bell House, September 26th. And then, for our European listeners, October 3rd, get yourself to Amsterdam. We're doing a live event with the whole Search Engine team. The venue, I cannot pronounce the name of the venue. I'm not going to make you laugh trying. But it's a beautiful old church. October 4th, Amsterdam. That link will also be in the show notes. Okay. Episode after some ads.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
We're going to pause here for a second because I want you to notice the phrase, the organic prohibition on the use of antibiotics. What we've encountered is a rule, one of the billions of rules that exist in our country. I have a habit I've been told is pretty annoying, which is that when someone tells me a rule, I almost always ask, why is that?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
I want the story behind it so that I can then decide if the rule makes sense to me or not. Like, is the airplane actually going to crash if I take my phone off airplane mode? Anyway, the story behind this rule, that in America, a cow stops being organic if it receives antibiotics, I want to tell it to you so that you can then decide if this rule makes sense to you. So the story goes like this.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Okay, so I want to step back for a moment and just talk about where you come into all this. I feel like it's not your only beat, but one of your beats as a writer I would describe as human relationship to animals. Yes. So I want to ask you about more of your reporting in general. I also just want to ask, do you eat animals?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Once upon a time, we got our milk from farmers who lived on small farms and milked their cows by hand. In the 20th century, that process changed. Dairy became much more industrial. The red barn mostly disappears. We invent lots of different factory machines to milk cows. In the 1990s, someone even invents robotic milking machines. Now we can milk cows faster. We can milk them more often.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Milk gets cheaper to buy, which is great, but we're also packing huge numbers of cows in warehouses where they live in relative squalor and get sick a lot. So someone realizes, okay, what if you just constantly gave those cows antibiotics? You don't even have to wait until they're sick. You can just give the cow antibiotics to prevent them from getting sick.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Now you put even more cows in even smaller warehouses. But then somebody else realized it might not be so great for humans to constantly be drinking antibiotic tainted milk. It could weaken our response to antibiotics when we're sick.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
In the EU and Canada, they made this rule, which is that if a cow had had antibiotics, the farm had to wait until the antibiotics were out of its system before selling its milk. But in America, we made our rule differently.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Right. You'd rather or you might prefer to let a cow get very, very, very sick, not have antibiotics so it could keep its status. It's like a place where when we talk about organic or when we talk about sort of higher quality meat, are we privileging our own health or are we privileging animal welfare? Totally.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Okay, so to return to the story of Annie visiting this organic dairy farm. The whistleblowers had alleged that the farm was regularly denying antibiotics to their sick cows. And so these cows were getting all sorts of nasty infections. Annie asked the family that owned the farm about all this. We also emailed the farm.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
They said they used antibiotics when needed, even if it means losing that cow's organic status. They also said that their first response to a sick cow isn't antibiotics, but instead natural treatments like tinctures or a saline solution with cod liver oil for eye infections. But they did acknowledge in this specific case of cow 13039, their system had failed.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
They said that had been a mistake and it had caused them to change their procedures.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
You might have noticed that we haven't named the dairy farm in this story, the one Annie reported about. That's partly because in the grand scheme of dairy farms, this farm, which we are using as a bad example, it's still almost certainly doing a better job than most. I personally am still convinced I'd rather be a cow there than at the factory farms where most of our milk comes from.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
But if the question of this episode is, can I microdose veganism? Can I do a little bit better? There are some answers. One thing is you could try to buy milk from genuine high-welfare dairy farms, although Annie's reporting does suggest that means doing more research than just trusting the packaging you see on the expensive milk at Whole Foods.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
If you don't want to become a full-time animal welfare investigator, and you also don't want to become vegan or vegetarian, there is one other possible route. I guess the thing I've been trying to figure out is, like, as someone who is more than anything else a lazy person, what, like... Like, right now, I just eat the things I want to eat, and I try to make them healthy.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
But the only ethical thing is, like, at some point, I was like, no octopus. Yeah. Like, they seem very smart. It's not that tasty. I was just like, I'm going to make one ethical decision. I'm drawing a line at octopus.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
What is, like, for someone who's like, I'm never going to be vegan, I don't think I'm going to be vegetarian, but I would like to do almost, like, the minimum viable thing to behave more compassionately. Like, what is the, like... toenail in the door of caring about compassionate food consumption.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
So there's an answer. If you want to microdose veganism without spending more money or dramatically reorganizing your life, you could just eat fewer animal products. There's actually a movement much less intimidating to me than veganism or vegetarianism called Meatless Monday, which even for me seems pretty doable.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
And I will say, since we started working on this story, one member of our team is now only eating meat and dairy on the weekends. One skipped meat this week. And our fact checker is starting to go vegan. As for me, I solemnly refuse to eat a turkey that's been dropped from an airplane. Annie, thank you.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Annie's perspective, which I find pretty surprising, is that if you decide to care about animals, the correct first step might not be avoiding meat. Her point of view, and I find it persuasive, is that the problem isn't so much that we kill animals, it's everything we do to them before we kill them.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Thanks to Annie Lowery, she's a reporter at The Atlantic. We will include links to her piece about the dairy farm and to her piece about Yellville in the description of this episode. There's one part of our conversation we didn't include here, but I found pretty helpful. Annie just went through what I jokingly called the animal misery Olympics.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Just going through, like, if you're gonna eat meat, but you feel sort of bad, what's the least miserable meat you could eat? For instance, did you know some vegans actually make an exception and eat oysters, since oysters don't have a central nervous system? Anyway, if you're curious, you can find that guide on our bonus feed, which is located at searchengine.show. We call it incognito mode.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Go check it out. Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Shruthi Pinamaneni, and is produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Fact-checking this week by Mary Mathis. Special thanks this week to Kayama Glover and Salome Walter. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Armin Bizarrian.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Reese-Dennis. Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Pirello, and John Schmidt. And to the team at Odyssey, J.D. Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchison, Matt Casey, Maura Kern, Josephina Francis, Kirk Courtney, and Hilary Schaaf. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at UTA.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
If you'd like to support the show and get access to our incognito mode feed with no ads, no reruns and bonus episodes, head to searchengine.show. You can also submit a question for us there, whether you're a paid subscriber or not. Follow and listen to Search Engine for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
And while some of the animals we kill to eat have pretty good lives first, most of the animals we get dairy and eggs from have a very rough time. Annie had just written a story about that, which we're going to dig into later. But for now, I was just trying to get a sense of what is it like inside the brain of a human who has decided to look directly into the sun of animal welfare?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
A choice I can feel my brain strongly avoiding. I guess one of the reasons I ask is like, it's something I've wondered about with you because I feel like we've eaten meals together.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
One of the things that I appreciate is like, I knew you were either vegan or vegan-ish, but I never feel particularly like I've had vegan friends. When your story came out, I sent it to a friend of mine who had grown up vegan. It's like, check this out. Remember the story? He immediately messaged me back. Let me actually find it. It's really funny. He's such a dick.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
He said... God, I'm like blowing him up on a podcast. I love it. Not by name.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
How dare he care about things? Okay, I said... This was my friend's piece. And he said, did your lactose intolerance switch to ethical intolerance afterwards? Wow. And then he said, sorry, sounded more confrontational than I intended.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
I feel like you're trying to lead by example, but I never feel like you're trying to lead by persuasion, which I guess I appreciate.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
But what I appreciate about your work is that you're kind of like, you're not that at all. But what I often see you doing is kind of just like asking in this very curious and open way, well, why does our compassion extend to animals at all? And when it does extend and when we find the walls and boundaries of it, can we look at those walls and boundaries and like try to understand them?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Okay, so here's our plan for the episode today. I'm going to get Annie to tell two stories about animals. And what I like about these stories is I think we have this idea of moral intuition, this idea that our gut will tell us the right thing to do. And sometimes it works. But in these cases, I think our gut sends us totally in the wrong direction. I think you'll see what I mean in a second.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
So, the first story is a tragic comedy about a very, very bizarre form of mistreatment of birds that upset a lot of people and upsets me and also, confusingly, makes me giggle. Can you just, can you tell me the Yellowville story?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Surge Engine is sponsored by Viore. Viore is a new perspective on performance apparel. It's perfect if you're sick and tired of traditional old workout gear. Everything is designed to work out in, but it doesn't feel or look like it. It's extremely comfortable. You'll want to wear it all the time. I promise you it is more comfortable than whatever you're wearing right now.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
This is the most deranged archival footage I've ever witnessed. 1969, a little turboprop plane in a bright blue sky. Some lunatic aboard merrily tossing turkeys from the heavens. In the air, they flap as wildly and desperately as you would in the same predicament.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
You see a man walking away holding a giant turkey. This is a fun, wholesome activity for the whole family, every year in this rural town. The town dropping around 10 turkeys from a plane. The townspeople gathering below, hoping to catch one for dinner. The only problem, contrary to what this smooth-voiced anchor has just claimed, flying down is not, quote, easy for the big birds.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Stop and ask yourself, when was the last time you looked up at the vast blue sky and watched a turkey soar majestically through it?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
And so they're dropping a flightless bird from a flying plane. And so what happens is what you would assume would happen, which is that the bird falls to the ground and either dies or is terribly injured.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
It's so funny sometimes seeing a peek into someone else's email inbox, like the stuff you could know them for.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
The product is incredibly versatile. It can be used for just about any activity, running, training, swimming, yoga, but it's also great for my favorite form of exercise, which is lounging on a sofa. Also, Viore is 100% offsetting their carbon footprint. They're using better sustainable materials for their products to empower your best active life. Viore is an investment in your happiness.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Annie says news of the Yellville tradition really began to pick up heat when tabloids got a hold of the story. The National Enquirer sent reporters to Yellville in the 1980s.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
They published a gruesome report about a turkey hitting a power line on its way down from the sky, then trying to run on two broken legs, before finally being crushed to death under a scrum of children who were competing for possession of the bird. The whole scene like something out of a Deadpool movie, albeit one that's been recast with poultry.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
The National Enquirer article, very generous with details such as these.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
Turkey terrorism. To many Americans, what was happening here was outrageous. And yet, here's where it begins to get tricky. Our code of conduct towards the animals we eat? Pretty unwritten. The rules with people are clear. You can almost never kill them. And as we have established on this show, under no circumstances should you eat them, even if they're already dead.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
But those animals, like turkeys, who we do eat? To many Yellville citizens, it was not so clear why dropping them out of a plane first was so bad. Was it against the law?
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
It's so funny, though, because they're asking the questions that I think you're asking in a much more serious way, which is like— Who's the regulatory authority who would actually intervene on behalf of an animal who we believe is being mistreated? They're just asking it in a very, like, disorganized fashion.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
The turkey tossing goes on for decades. Annie says that over the years, the local chamber of commerce receives thousands of angry messages, some callers threatening to throw the town's children from airplanes. Finally, the town relents. In 2018, an announcement is made that while the town's turkey festival will continue, it will no longer feature turkey drops.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
And Annie decides this is the year that she wants to go to Yellville to check things out.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
For our listeners, Viore is offering 20% off your first purchase. Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at viore.com slash pjsearch. That's Viore, V-U-O-R-I dot com slash pjsearch. Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but you'll also enjoy free shipping on any US orders over 75 bucks and free returns.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
This is the first fact that's abundantly clear when Annie arrives in Yellville, a piece of context mostly missing from the national stories. Many Yellville residents make a living slaughtering the turkeys that the rest of us mindlessly eat. Unlike us, they are familiar with the conditions in turkey slaughterhouses. I'm not going to go full PETA on you here, but here's one postcard.
Search Engine
Can I microdose veganism?
One way we kill turkeys is to shackle them by their feet upside down on a kind of demonic conveyor belt, and then dunk them into electrified water. It's called an electric bath. Their throats are slit, and then we toss them into a separate pool of water, this one scalding hot. The Yellville residents in the turkey slaughterhouse were used to this.
Search Engine
The End
We walk across through the muddy gray area onto the giant white napkin of the ice sheet proper, and I run into Dave, the guy organizing the trip.
Search Engine
The End
Have you ever seen, you see more of the natural world than I do. Have you ever seen anything that felt this infinite?
Search Engine
The End
Climate scientists have identified several tipping points. Strongholds on Earth that, when or if they fall, will signal a tumble into real, irreversible calamity. This ice sheet we're standing on is one of them. It covers 1.2% of the earth. If it were all to melt, sea levels would rise 23 feet. We're walking on a bomb, albeit one that has already begun exploding.
Search Engine
The End
I fell pretty deep into a few books before this trip. My favorite was called The Ice at the End of the World by John Gertner. He chronicles how in the late 1800s, these lunatic explorers began mounting expeditions where they simply tried to walk across the ice sheet from one edge of the country to the other. Nobody had ever done this without dying.
Search Engine
The End
These men called themselves scientists and explorers, but crucially and absurdly, they were trying to do this decades before there was really anything scientifically useful about these expeditions.
Search Engine
The End
It's only really in the 1950s that scientists would figure out that they could drill deep into the ice, remove ice cores, and by studying them, extract historical climate data, which would begin to show evidence for man-made climate change. but this was happening 70 years before that. So what drove them onto the ice?
Search Engine
The End
Despite the grandness of what these explorers were attempting, their motives, I found them disappointingly human. Being the first man across the ice sheet could get you headlines, speaking engagements. You risked your life, but in return, you were given the thing everyone seeks and no one really admits they're after, status. But there were other explorers with stranger, more interesting motives.
Search Engine
The End
I'm just going to take a moment to tell you about my favorite, Fridolf Nansen, a scientist explorer who started his adventures at the age of 20, same age as Grant from the airport. People would describe Nansen as fearless, heroic. The image I get of him reading his journals is a bit more complicated.
Search Engine
The End
I see one of those people born with that kind of deep melancholy, the kind that makes you seek out death because being close to it somehow makes you feel more okay. This is how Nansen describes the Aishi that I'm currently standing on, the place that he would return to again and again. Quote, a weird beauty without feeling as though of a dead planet built of shining white marble.
Search Engine
The End
I was at the airport because of that white paper, actually because of what I considered to be a pretty crucial flaw in it. A flaw that, like a bad piece of code, had replicated itself over and over, helping cause some real-world destruction, which I was about to go witness up close. The flaw had come about while Satoshi was actually designing Bitcoin.
Search Engine
The End
And everything so still, so awfully still, with the silence that shall one day reign. When the earth becomes desolate and empty, when the fox will no more haunt these moraines, when the bear will no longer wander about on the ice out there, when even the wind will not rage. Infinite silence. Isn't that beautiful? He ate a polar bear heart and he wrote that.
Search Engine
The End
Nansen and I dissimilar in probably any discernible way. He, a chiseled blonde adventurer, braving an unexplored expanse in a wool jacket. Me, 150 years later, visiting with my preferred asthma inhaler. Except, I swear to God, I can feel that same tug towards death that pulls through his writing. Self-destruction. Out here, it was like the call was coming from the landscape itself.
Search Engine
The End
I'm thinking about this and other similarly modeling thoughts when we pass a clump of really weird dirt.
Search Engine
The End
What's happening here is that the ice is constantly shifting. And in that process, some dirt has slowly made its way all the way up to the surface over thousands of years. It's like the world's oldest popped pimple.
Search Engine
The End
I'm standing next to a Greenlandic youth climate activist who's on the trip, Sasha Blidov. She and another Greenlander, a guide named Kim Falk-Peterson, start talking about another one of the ice sheet's mysteries, how diamonds sometimes appear here.
Search Engine
The End
This is so crazy sounding, I checked it. It's true. There's a layer of nanodiamonds, tiny, almost diamond particles that have been found on the ice sheet. Scientists think it's evidence that some kind of space object struck here 13,000 years ago.
Search Engine
The End
But then also there are a lot of expensive diamonds that have been found in Greenland recently because as the ice sheet melts and recedes, it exposes land that has never been mined. And so the beginnings of climate change have actually opened up economic opportunities for Greenlanders who are not a wealthy country. It's complicated though. Sasha and Kim tell me about this story they've heard.
Search Engine
The End
Foreigners coming to Greenland, stealing precious gems, and then selling them abroad. Kim elaborates.
Search Engine
The End
I can't verify this story. I listened to it less wondering if it were true or not, more just thinking about what had drawn these people to it. I find myself doing that a lot these days. Like when Coolio told me he believed there was an unspoiled part of our planet guarded by alien beings who weren't flawed the way we are.
Search Engine
The End
Satoshi had had to decide how new Bitcoins would be issued to the public over time. With normal money, a government has a central bank that can release more currency. But Bitcoin wasn't normal. There was no central bank. So what to do? In 2008, Satoshi decides computers on the network will compete to guess at the answers to complicated puzzles.
Search Engine
The End
I'd wondered why someone who said he didn't worry about the end of the world was still drawn to a story like that. Here, it made sense to me why these Greenlanders were sharing a story like this one. Outsiders have pillaged Greenland for centuries. Even this year, a team funded by Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates had sent drones to Greenland to look for valuable heavy metals. So, you know.
Search Engine
The End
56,000 people live in Greenland. Almost 90% are Inuit. Inuit people survived here before those early explorers showed up. And the Western explorers depended on, and in some cases, badly exploited them.
Search Engine
The End
Sasha told me another story, how as a kid, she would hear about Mother of the Sea, a goddess who, if you hunt an animal and you don't use all the parts, Mother of the Sea would gather all the animals into her fiery hair and there wouldn't be anything left for anyone to eat.
Search Engine
The End
Sasha says she's been seeing animals migrate north and last year was a Christmas without snow. In Greenland. Here, as in other Arctic places, temperatures are rising four times faster than anywhere else in the world. Sasha says she can't actually easily get to the ice sheet from her home. And so despite living in a country defined by the ice sheet, she'd never actually gotten to visit it.
Search Engine
The End
We get back to the airport town, the town that's in an airport, Kangaroo Sock. And for dinner, reindeer sausage. As I eat it, I feel ashamed, which makes me realize that somewhere inside of me is a person with unresolved feelings about Santa Claus. I crawl into bed. I can see the runway from my little hotel window. I pull the blinds tight.
Search Engine
The End
The sun doesn't set here until around 10, and I go to sleep. After the break, act three. Search Engine is brought to you by Betterment. Do you want your money to be motivated? Do you want your money to rise and grind? Do you think your money should get up and work? Don't worry, Betterment is here to help. Betterment is the automated investing and savings app that makes your money hustle.
Search Engine
The End
Their automated technology is built to help maximize returns, meaning when you invest with Betterment, your money can auto adjust as you get closer to your goal, rebalance if your portfolio gets too far out of line, and your dividends are automatically reinvested. That can increase the potential for compound returns.
Search Engine
The End
In other words, your money is working like a dog while you can be sleeping like one and snoring like one too. You'll never picture your money the same way again. Betterment, the automated investing and savings app that makes your money hustle. Visit betterment.com to get started. Investing involves risk. Performance is not guaranteed. Search Engine is brought to you by Rowbody.
Search Engine
The End
If you've heard of Ozempic or Wegovy, you've probably heard three things. They're effective, but they're expensive, and they're hard to get. That's where Roe comes in. Through Roe, you can access prescription compounded GLP-1s with the same weight loss ingredient as brand name GLP-1s at a fraction of the cost. Roe has compounded GLP-1s in stock now.
Search Engine
The End
You can get it in one to four days if you qualify. Roe members have support through the process. If eligible for medication, patients have access to their provider on demand for any questions. You can see if you qualify from the comfort of your home. That means no scheduling a doctor's appointment, no commute to the doctor's office, and no waiting rooms.
Search Engine
The End
The winner will receive Bitcoin and the chance to write the next few transactions on Bitcoin's ledger on the blockchain. Which means essentially, Satoshi is creating a system where you trade your computing power and your home electricity for the chance to earn Bitcoin.
Search Engine
The End
If prescribed, your medication ships in one to four days. Go to roe.co slash search engine. Memberships start at just $99 for your first month. Medication costs are separate. That's roe.co slash search engine. Go to roe.co slash safety for black box warning and full safety information. Compounded medication is not required to and does not receive FDA review or approval. Prescription only.
Search Engine
The End
Surge Engine is brought to you by Discover Doublenomics. We discuss all things finance and economics here, but have you heard about Doublenomics? It's okay if you haven't, because we like to keep you in the know, and it's extremely niche. Here's an example of Doublenomics. Discover automatically doubles the cash back earned on your credit card at the end of your first year with cash back match.
Search Engine
The End
That means with Discover, you could turn $150 cash back to $300. It pays to Discover. See terms at discover.com slash credit card. Act Three, The Activist's Dilemma. In the morning at the hotel after Greenlandic breakfast, we engaged in the difficult crypto climate conversations that are planned for the trip.
Search Engine
The End
Before coming, my dream had been that I would get to see, like, I don't know, a Greenpeace activist and a Bitcoin miner actually really talking to each other. I wanted to capture on tape one of the rarest sights you can behold on Earth. a person changing another person's mind. That wasn't happening here, but not for the reasons you'd expect.
Search Engine
The End
Turned out the crypto people here agreed with the climate people here. Climate change, very bad. Crypto should be more energy efficient. So what transpired were these conversations that, to my non-engineering brain, just felt kind of dry. Like if you took a shot of whiskey every time someone used the word stakeholder, you would be dead by noon.
Search Engine
The End
There is one very interesting big discussion. The panel that people here are calling the 800-pound gorilla panel, which addresses probably the thorniest question of the trip. How should we think about crypto's effect on the environment? How do we judge all the consequences that spewed forth from Satoshi's white paper?
Search Engine
The End
The people here, they believe in Satoshi's vision of a decentralized world, but they are not his most orthodox adherents. I've talked in previous episodes about how crypto is not a monolith, but a bunch of warring factions. And the factions who have shown up here belong to newer cryptocurrencies, greener ones, which were engineered differently from Bitcoin.
Search Engine
The End
Cryptocurrencies that do not include Satoshi's big flaw. Remember, Bitcoin's network uses a system that is very energy intensive. It's called proof of work. Newer crypto uses something called proof of stake. In proof of stake, new coins aren't issued to energy-guzzling supercomputers. Instead, they're just given to people who have pledged not to spend some of their existing coins.
Search Engine
The End
This new system uses 0.01% of the energy of the old system, which is great, but it also means this gathering, it's sort of like if RC Cola held a big meeting to solve the soft drink industry's carbon problems without talking to Coke. Bitcoin and crypto is still twice as popular as its nearest competitor, Ethereum. One of the speakers here is Ken Weber, who works at Ripple.
Search Engine
The End
Ripple, which has recently landed in the SEC's crosshairs. A whole other story. But on the subject of sustainability, Ken points out that in this room, right now, they're missing a big, hate to use the word, stakeholder. The Bitcoin contingent.
Search Engine
The End
This group Ken's talking about, I know these guys, Bitcoin maxis, like the ones I met in Miami, whose stance towards the environment was very defensive and pugnacious. Their one panel on climate, you may remember, directed at fellow Bitcoiners, was called You Are the Carbon They Wish to Reduce. So it did make sense to me that none of them were here.
Search Engine
The End
The incentive can also be... In Bitcoin's early years, that electricity will belong to hobbyists on their home PCs. A decade and a half later, there will be multi-million dollar companies with giant warehouses filled with state-of-the-art computers burning energy, all in the hopes of winning more Bitcoin.
Search Engine
The End
But Ken goes on to tell a story about a moment I never heard about. how in 2021, there was an attempt to reach a cryptocurrency climate accord, basically to get crypto to net zero emissions. What surprised me was that that moment actually included Bitcoin maxis.
Search Engine
The End
I found this surprising, this moment so recent of crypto kumbaya. It turned out, though, things had quickly gone south. According to Ken, the wing of Bitcoin climate reformers lost out to their energy-consuming fundamentalist brethren.
Search Engine
The End
The Maxis departed. The status quo returned to its familiar state. I don't know how anyone solves a problem when the people who are driving it barely agree it's a problem at all. One night at the bar, though, I happen to meet a couple of people who haven't given up, who've spent a large part of their lives figuring out how to get even the most stubborn people on earth to be part of the solution.
Search Engine
The End
It starts out because I'm eavesdropping on a conversation between a couple of people from a big, relatively green cryptocurrency and a couple of pretty serious environmental activists, Kasson and Rolfe. Casson used to work with the Sea Shepherd, a group that's been called eco-terrorist by a few governments. But he knew Rolf from their days together at Greenpeace USA.
Search Engine
The End
It turns out that some of Greenpeace's frontline workers wear bulletproof vests because in places like Indonesia and Brazil, environmental activists are sometimes murdered. Greenpeace's MO is basically this. They try to find bad things that are happening to the planet. And when they do, they study the complex system causing the bad thing to happen.
Search Engine
The End
Bitcoin, even now, after all the crypto crashes this year, consumes somewhere over 100 terawatt hours annually. in line with a small country. Think Finland or Argentina. Satoshi created a world where for some people, pursuing their rational self-interest meant essentially leaving giant, powerful computers turned on 24-7, helping cook the planet. I would call that a flaw.
Search Engine
The End
and do you like how does it change the way you move through the world and consume products in this like broken world like do you i don't know if you have kids but like if you had a kid and they wanted barbie do you buy them a barbie like how do you participate well that was some feedback people are like what are you saying barbie's good you know there's there's young girls and body image issues and and oh barbie's made of phthalates and toxics and i'm like okay well look
Search Engine
The End
I was thinking about this, and no one would mistake me for a better than average person. I'm like a solid five out of 10. You're like Z minus.
Search Engine
The End
But I was talking to a friend of mine about this trip, and she was like, I don't know, it seems interesting. She was like, I don't understand why people have to get on planes to fly somewhere to talk about climate, which I think is a fair point. But the other thing I thought about is, I will be flying for vacation, Two weeks after this.
Search Engine
The End
And no one is asking me whether or not I should fly for vacation two weeks after this. It's like this thing where as you get close to doing a good thing, the level of criticism goes up a lot.
Search Engine
The End
I asked Rolf how crypto had ended up on the Greenpeace radar, and he said it actually started with China. In 2021, China had been the leading country for Bitcoin mining. These mines in China often drew power from hydroelectric plants, which as far as energy goes, hydroelectric is at least renewable. But then the Chinese government banned Bitcoin mining.
Search Engine
The End
There's actually a recent precedent for that kind of change. Ethereum, this year, actually just a few months ago, converted from proof of work to proof of stake. That's partly possible, though, because Ethereum, unlike Bitcoin, has a leader, a hierarchy, dedicated teams working on improving the protocol. But Rolf said there's always a way. Greenpeace will look at the system.
Search Engine
The End
It'll find the pressure points. Maybe he convinces a consortium of Bitcoin miners to come together and agree to change the code. Or else maybe Greenpeace pressures the big financial institutions that invest in Bitcoin and pushes them towards greener crypto instead.
Search Engine
The End
Act Four, Revolution and Industry. We travel to the third largest city in Greenland, Ilulissat. About 4,700 people live here, slightly outnumbering the 3,096 sled dogs. The sled dogs have their own sort of town outside of town. Some live in dog houses, some in kennels. Others are kept on long chains in open fields.
Search Engine
The End
I was at the airport that night because a guy named Dave had told me that he had an idea for how he might at least begin to chip away at this problem. Dave had summoned a bunch of cryptocurrency enthusiasts and some climate change activists to Greenland. Greenland, very important site of climate change. It's the home of the second largest ice mass in the world.
Search Engine
The End
These dogs are huge, white, wolfy creatures that smell worse than most things on Earth. Even my youngest sister. They howl almost constantly.
Search Engine
The End
Past the dogs, there's this building everyone keeps calling the Glacier Museum. The official name is the Ilulissat Ice Fjord Center. Not a museum person, but I love this one. It's all about climate change and the glacier here. This is just an exhibition where you can press a button and watch this glacier break out from the ice sheet to the sea.
Search Engine
The End
In another section, they have a bunch of ice cores on display. The oldest ice is over here. I've read about these, the ice samples first collected by scientists in the 1950s. Each core is about two feet long, ice suspended in a cylinder of water. I was looking at them with this photographer named Vaughn, trying to figure out if we could see any differences between old and older ice.
Search Engine
The End
I actually would say this looks a little different. Like, it looks... The texture's different. Yeah, it's more glittery.
Search Engine
The End
and like harder packed. So this is ice from... 124,000 years ago. 124,000 BC, so it's even older. You can actually see, well, scientists who are trained to can actually see moments in human history in this ice. Financial crises can be traced in the ice core. 1930s. 1950s, you can see radioactive fallout in the ice sheet. Some of it's pretty grim.
Search Engine
The End
The signs of us inventing ways to kill ourselves and each other registered silently by the planet. But mostly, looking at it just feels fascinating. You can see the end of the Ice Age. You can even see the Great Depression in these ice cores. The Depression can be observed in the ice core through there being less sulfuric acid.
Search Engine
The End
Fewer fossil fuels were being burned because people couldn't afford them. So while it's mostly a record of various crises, there is one exception, although the exception starts with acid rain. In December 1952, a suffocating, poisonous fog descended onto London and resulted in the deaths of 12,000 people. I'd never known this story.
Search Engine
The End
Dave's idea was to put these crypto people, whose technology contributes to climate change, at the site of the disaster, and put them directly in difficult conversations with the activists who were trying to stop it. The idea was that these crypto people could be part of the solution. I was intrigued, and so I bought my plane ticket, a flight to Greenland via Denmark.
Search Engine
The End
So in 1950s London, you kept your house warm by burning coal, coal, in an open hearth in your living room. An unusually cold winter led to more coal burning than usual, and a smog rose over the city. Hydrochloric acid is a byproduct of coal combustion, and every day the smog over London contained 140 tons of it. Modern estimates suggest that 12,000 Londoners died.
Search Engine
The End
It was a tragedy, and you can see this smog recorded that year in the ice cores. But you can also see the problem get solved. The event became known as the Great Smog and led to the British Parliament introducing the Clean Air Act in 1956 and shows that political initiatives have an effect. God, that's crazy. I leave the museum. There's a path from the exit that takes you on a short walk.
Search Engine
The End
Okay, wait. We're walking down a wood path in Illusat. I start walking with Austin Federa, a guy who works at the Solana Foundation. Solana, a newer, greener crypto. And what does it say here?
Search Engine
The End
Every cryptocurrency attracts its demographic. The Solana true believers I've met, well, former true believers, they all lost their money. They were all Obama-era Democrats. And Austin would fit in at their dinner party. He's a left-of-center, former public radio guy who found himself working in crypto.
Search Engine
The End
Austin's saying that working at a low emissions cryptocurrency, while he believes that that could help the world one day, he knows right now he's not doing very much to save the planet. I found that feeling relatable. Pretty much everybody I know, I can see the little bit better that they're trying to do.
Search Engine
The End
Okay, this week, our story for you, it's really one of my favorite pieces I have worked on. What had happened was we made this entire series about cryptocurrency. And one of the questions that a lot of people kept asking, but which I felt a little under-equipped to answer was, what about the environment? What about cryptocurrency's effect on climate? Stories about climate are really hard to tell.
Search Engine
The End
Buying an electric car instead of gas, putting solar panels on the roof, or if you're a crypto person, trying to buy greener crypto. But it all kind of feels like a Diet Coke at McDonald's. Like, whatever the small ways we cut back, there's just so much other consumption that we're participating in.
Search Engine
The End
Except now, my flight was many hours delayed. And so here I was, stuck at the airport, thinking about this white paper. And in my preoccupation, it took me a moment to notice the man, sitting just 10 feet away from me. He was wearing a lime green tracksuit and a lime green baseball hat. Two holes were cut out for his dreads, which angled into the sky like antenna.
Search Engine
The End
What Austin means by getting shit under control is some combination of government intervention and new technology. The Great Smog over London did not end because people made incremental changes to their consumer behavior. It ended because the government intervened. It intervened in the face of obvious consequences.
Search Engine
The End
Burning coal was banned, and England, in the decades after, transitioned to central heating. It was a very necessary moment of technological revolution. Now, of course, central heating, often powered by natural gas, is a huge part of our current problem. Holy shit, look at this.
Search Engine
The End
We find ourselves standing in front of a bay filled with a mess of giant pieces of ice.
Search Engine
The End
Act 5. The most beautiful thing. We head back to the hotel. The last night in Alulisat, I get to bed pretty early. And watching the sun glitchily refuse to set, it occurs to me for the first time that here, at the end of the Crypto Island series, I've finally found myself on an actual island, just not the kind I'd pictured.
Search Engine
The End
In January, I saw a video online that nearly broke my already pretty fragile brain. It was a commercial by this oddball who was shilling his promise of a real-life physical crypto island, a utopia for digital coin worshipers. I'd wondered about the audience this video was addressing. Who were they? What did they want? Those questions sent me on a journey, a journey I'm grateful for.
Search Engine
The End
These days, my friends will still ask me, come on, what do you really think of crypto? And I tell them, my best guess is that in 10 years, if I look back at 2022 and ask what was this year's most important tech story, I think it was probably AI. Computers that can suddenly draw and talk to you and will soon do God knows what else. AI are actually really decarbonization.
Search Engine
The End
Batteries powering cars and hopefully semi-trucks, planes that might run on hydrogen, a power grid that can run on solar and wind. These technologies hold more potential to change the world for the better than anything else I can think of. Crypto, for all the attention it's garnered this year, particularly for me, maybe a distant third.
Search Engine
The End
14 years in, the technology's still mostly just an unfulfilled promise. And yet, at its core, that promise is just so enticing, we're all gonna make it, that it's hard to imagine it being extinguished. As long as our world feels compromised and brutal, There will be a market for a new world. It's just around the corner. Maybe just around the corner forever.
Search Engine
The End
We pile on two boats, which will take us a couple hours up very cold water to an actual glacier.
Search Engine
The End
It's pretty cold on deck, so most people stay in the cabin, except Rolf, the Greenpeace guy. For the whole boat ride, he'll just sit on the front of the boat, watching small and large pieces of sea ice glide by.
Search Engine
The End
This man had the incandescent shine of celebrity about him. And I realized pretty quickly, he was a celebrity. He was Coolio, the rapper. Gangsta's paradise. One, two, three, four. Coolio, who would actually die a month later in Los Angeles. But tonight, he was at my gate, looking, frankly, magnificent. Gamely chatting with Grant, a 20-year-old he'd just met. Okay, say your names. Coolio. Coolio.
Search Engine
The End
Our boat approaches. The captain cuts the engine, and now it's quiet. And we behold the Eki glacier. How tall is it?
Search Engine
The End
It's funny listening back to this tape now. Everyone on the boat takes turns trying and failing to capture what they're seeing in words. It's just not possible. A glacier up close is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. Probably will see in my time here on Earth. Is that the calving?
Search Engine
The End
Eki is a very active calving glacier, meaning if you visit, there's a good chance you'll see chunks of it falling into the water.
Search Engine
The End
I'm not sure how long we just stare at the thing. 45 minutes to watch it calve, break apart. I think that even an animal watching this would feel uneasy. A glacier calving can be natural, but out here, knowing what we all know, it doesn't feel that way. It feels like watching teeth rot, or a liver fail. It feels like watching consequences.
Search Engine
The End
We watched Consequences for a while, and then some people decided to brave the cold water.
Search Engine
The End
They jump in, they jump out, whiskey's passed around, and we turn the boats back towards Alula Saat. Alula Saat, and then home. Crypto Island this year was me, with Shruti Pinmaneni, Stephen Jackson, Phil Demachowski, Elizabeth Moss, Garrett Graham, and Christine Andrews. Thanks this year to Gabrielle Concha, Dr. Colin Reif, and Kayama Glover. That is our final summer rebroadcast.
Search Engine
The End
We will be back next week with a brand new episode of Search Engine, season two. We can't wait to see you.
Search Engine
The End
My trip had not even begun, and I was already in a detour. We started talking about, well, crypto. Coolio, it turned out, had done his own research, gotten involved.
Search Engine
The End
And I asked him, you know, speaking of possible apocalypses, how worried was he about climate change? He was candid in a way people usually aren't in just saying he did believe water levels are rising, but he didn't think of it as his problem to solve.
Search Engine
The End
Coolio was 59 years old. Grant was only 20. Which meant climate change was a problem he'd very directly inherit. So I asked him, Grant, do you worry about climate change?
Search Engine
The End
Pretty much everybody worries about climate change, but the promise of a story is that you might feel differently when it's over. And climate change stories, it's like all they can promise is either you'll feel dreadful, you'll feel confused by science, or I guess depending on which website you're on these days, maybe you'll be convinced it isn't real.
Search Engine
The End
This conversation, one of the strangest I've had this year, which is saying a lot, went on for a while. Most of it I will not play for you today. But the gist was Julio and Grant were both excited about the idea that there was an ancient race of aliens, more enlightened than us, who were protecting parts of the planet from humans. I'm a reporter who covers the internet.
Search Engine
The End
I encounter a lot of misinformation. Some of it bothers me. This particular theory, I have to say, did not. It was not political. It was not hateful. It was just very unusual. And to me, the most incredible part was that these two very different people had somehow ended up in the same internet conspiracy theory rabbit hole.
Search Engine
The End
So much so that now they were just fully completing each other's sentences. Like they just walked out of the same Star Wars movie together.
Search Engine
The End
And I sit down. That conversation I just had would stay with me. For the obvious reasons, but also because underneath the weirdness, I think it points at the allure of literally any distraction. Secret aliens, sure, but if you're me, the latest goings-on of Sam Beckman Freed. Any problem shinier than the big one.
Search Engine
The End
That we've accidentally created a world where our consumption is gradually killing us. there were always going to be a lot of other, more fun things to think about than that. But when the opportunity of this trip had appeared and I'd been motivated to go, partly it was just out of a desire to lock myself in a room with this problem.
Search Engine
The End
A room where for once my life, with all its dumb urgencies, would be the thing that finally felt distant. On the flight, I read a book about Greenlandic climate history and I fall asleep. After Smads, Greenland. Search Engine is brought to you by Fresh Direct. I really like FreshDirect.
Search Engine
The End
When I go to the grocery store, for some reason, my brain goes into screensaver mode, and it takes me forever, and I get lost, and I come back with half of the things I actually need. So I end up saving hours a week just using FreshDirect. FreshDirect is farm to kitchen, food sourced directly from farmers, fishermen, and ranchers, and delivered straight to your door.
Search Engine
The End
So we wanted to try to find a way to tell a story about the planet that captured what it feels like to try to look at the problem, like really look at it, but with humor and feeling and history and just whatever elements we didn't think you would expect to find in a story like this. So this is it, the finale of our Crypto Island series.
Search Engine
The End
Because of this, I'm paying for the quality of food, rather than just paying someone to go to a store for me. FreshDirect says they are seven days fresher than the grocery store. And honestly, you can tell the difference. The convenience is unbeatable. You can grocery shop from your office or your couch whenever you want. The most recent thing I ordered from FreshDirect was a fennel bulb.
Search Engine
The End
I mean, I had other stuff too, but the fennel was really good. For over 20 years, Fresh Direct has been delivering the freshest fruits, vegetables, and meats to the tri-state area. Don't take my word for it. Try to believe it with $50 off your first order. Go to freshdirect.com and use code SEARCHENGINE. That's freshdirect.com, code SEARCHENGINE, for new customers to save $50 on their first order.
Search Engine
The End
Terms and restrictions apply. See site for details. Search Engine is brought to you by Rosetta Stone. There's a lot of reasons to learn a new language. One of my favorites, cognitive benefits, improved brain function. My brain has not been very good. Studies have shown that learning a new language can improve memory, problem solving skills, and even delay the onset of dementia.
Search Engine
The End
It might be too late for me, but it's not too late for you. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app. It truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. Rosetta Stone has been a trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered.
Search Engine
The End
Lifetime membership has all 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. Search Engine listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash search engine. That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life.
Search Engine
The End
Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. Welcome back to the show. Act 2. Doing my own research. After a stopover in Denmark, I fly to Greenland. Into the town of Kongerlusak. Although, even calling this a town feels like an exaggeration. 475 people live here. It's a settlement. Established by the U.S. Air Force during World War II, after the Nazis had taken Denmark.
Search Engine
The End
Conger Lusak is almost entirely contained in its own airport. The hotel is in the airport, the bar is in the airport. Outside, a runway, and on a gray flat plain under some gray hills, there are a few brightly colored buildings scattered like Monopoly houses.
Search Engine
The End
That night, the group I'll be traveling with gathers for dinner, the Greenland Blockchain Climate Expedition. There's Dave Ford, the man who's organizing the trip. He's standing at the head of the table. And then at the table itself, the two sides who are here to have difficult conversations about crypto and the climate.
Search Engine
The End
One of the pieces I've gotten to work on that I'm most proud of. I hope you like it. Act one, diversions. August 12th, 2022. I was sitting at the airport, delayed flight, a red eye getting redder. I was thinking, as I so often do, about the inventor of Bitcoin, Satoshi Nakamoto, and the white paper where he'd laid out how Bitcoin would work.
Search Engine
The End
There are crypto people who are obsessed with their carbon footprints. There are climate activists who really love to talk about their NFTs. And the people here, they come from all over. The US, Greenland, Ecuador, Bermuda. Here's our plan for the week. Pretty much every day, we'll go visit a site of visible climate damage, and we'll spend the rest of the day in debate and conversation.
Search Engine
The End
Before preparing for this trip, I never really wondered what Greenland looked like. Arriving, I realized I've never seen a place like it.
Search Engine
The End
There's this new genre of video game where an algorithm randomly generates fantastic planets for you to visit, each one with its own attributes. I keep thinking, that's how Greenland feels. A procedurally generated world, like something out of a sci-fi novel. At 1.30 in the afternoon, we parked the bus at a little turnoff.
Search Engine
The End
We get out of the bus and strap these crampons on our boots, metal teeth that grip the ice more securely.
Search Engine
The End
It takes me about 10, if I'm honest, 15 more minutes than anyone else, partly because I'm trying to both balance myself and a microphone so I can describe the extremely dramatic scene of putting my ice shoes on. And then we start walking. This is just dried cod. I've never seen this before. Somebody shares a big hunk of dried cod, which is sort of Greenland's version of jerky. It's pretty tasty.