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Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 2)

Wed, 26 Jun 2024

Description

We travel to Germany to trace techno's history from Detroit to Berlin. The story of how, after the Wall fell, Berlin exorcised its brutal past with a very strange, decade-long party. A mission that takes us all the way to the gates of Berghain.  Music Credits: Original composition in this episode by Armen Bazarian. Additional Tracks: Game One - Infiniti, Dead Man Watches The Clock - Marcel Dettmann & Ben Klock, The Call - Marcel Dettmann & Norman Nodge, Quicksand - Marcel Dettmann. Full playlist here. Sven von Thüle: https://soundcloud.com/svt // Der Klang der Familie Gesine Kühne: https://soundcloud.com/wannadosomething Support the show at searchengine.show! To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Audio
Transcription

1.272 - 18.995 PJ Vogt

Surge Engine is brought to you by Polestar. Polestar's new electric SUV, the Polestar 3, genuinely drives like a sports car, going from zero to 60 in as little as 4.8 seconds and an EPA-estimated range of up to 315 miles. Did we mention it's 100% electric?

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19.655 - 79.518 PJ Vogt

Polestar 3 operates on a custom-developed Android automotive OS, which takes your infotainment center a step further, holistically connecting to the car. It also has seamless voice commands and active road noise canceling. Book your test drive today at Polestar.com. My body thinks that it's 2.30 in the morning, but I'm on a plane landing in Berlin where it's 7.30 in the morning.

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81.218 - 82.419 PJ Vogt

My body does not believe that.

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82.439 - 91.22 Unknown

We will be in a short time. Please take a moment and stash your handkerchief pieces, including laptops. Your phones and tablets are welcome to continue

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96.212 - 114.301 PJ Vogt

Welcome to Search Engine. I'm PJ Vogt. You're listening to the second part of our story, Why Didn't Chris and Dan Get Into Berghain? In March, I found myself on a tarmac in Berlin, holding yet another book about the history of German techno, cramming, I suppose, for a very strange kind of test.

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115.262 - 132.219 PJ Vogt

It was all part of this crazy plan that a man named Lutz had described to me, and which I could not resist trying. Lutz had said that the real way into the most exclusive nightclub in the world, Berghain, famous for its four hour plus line, was to not wait in that line at all.

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133.48 - 160.091 PJ Vogt

It was instead to meet people in the Berlin techno crowd, gain a deep understanding of what the music meant to them, and in doing so, somehow melt into the scene. I am not socially adept. I don't speak German. I'm very new even to just dancing. Assuming this plan could work for someone, I'm pretty skeptical it can work for me. But I felt like I wanted to try.

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160.111 - 184.925 PJ Vogt

As someone who has known the joys of belonging and the pain of not, I've always been very curious about where I can make myself fit in and which places are a bridge too far. Could a poorly dressed American with a weird laugh find even a temporary home in a severe German techno dungeon? I had less than a week to get an answer, but for once in my life, at least I knew it would be a definitive one.

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188.127 - 195.372 PJ Vogt

So on March 13th, I get off the plane, blink in the bright, cold sunlight, and start practicing some rudimentary German.

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205.446 - 213.156 PJ Vogt

I'm there with my editor, Shruti, who, by some miracle, speaks the language. But other than that, I could not have been a more outside outsider to the city.

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213.836 - 215.458 Shruti Pinamaneni

This is a tug. Like...

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216.294 - 236.711 PJ Vogt

It's our first day, and so we head to the neighborhood everyone had told me to start with, Friedrichshain. Friedrichshain is the neighborhood that contains Berghain. Walking the streets, I feel this feeling of déjà street view. I've clicked through the same blocks on Google Maps for my apartment at home. I can see the big sports arena that replaced Ostgut, Berghain's previous incarnation.

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237.532 - 264.253 PJ Vogt

I can see the river Spree, which winds along the city streets. I have the sensation that I get sometimes when I'm in a restaurant where a celebrity has appeared. A little giddy, a little on edge. Act one, The Portal. Late in the morning, I find myself en route to see a man named Sven von Thulen. Not the Berghain bouncer Sven, there are many Svens in Germany. This Sven, a DJ and a writer.

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264.674 - 273.808 PJ Vogt

The music studio where he asks to meet, a walk-up. I walk up with a lot of stairs. I trail behind Shruti.

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275.469 - 284.531 Unknown

Check, check. Hi.

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285.992 - 296.415 PJ Vogt

Middle-aged, fashionable, a short red-brown widow's peak and a white T-shirt. Sven dresses to my eyes more like a rock guitarist than a techno DJ, but how does a techno guy dress anyway?

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297.896 - 298.156 Shruti Pinamaneni

This way?

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302.39 - 324.701 PJ Vogt

We sit down and I tell Sven what I want him to help me try to understand today. I'm trying to understand a genre of music, techno, which for some reason Germans love and Americans mostly view as vapid. Why would the same sounds be heard so differently in two different countries? In America, it's like the two types of music you're allowed to say you hate are

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327.047 - 335.288 Sven von Thülen

Okay. That's always a problem when your idea of something is just that bullshit stuff that's mass marketed.

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335.408 - 357.273 PJ Vogt

Yes. Sven tells me he gets it. A lot of people's first exposure to electronic music is the worst of the genre. And he relates to that because when he first heard techno, he also hated it. His association with dance music was this cloying, repetitive, syrupy stuff that was sledging out of Europe in the 1990s. I was like a punk kid.

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357.953 - 373.824 Sven von Thülen

I lived in a squat. And for me, it felt like techno is just like apolitical. It's just hedonism. It's very German. It's like all that I, you know, as like, you know, an angry 16, 17-year-old, I was like, I don't like any of that.

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375.645 - 396.816 PJ Vogt

To give you a sense of what angry young Sven was into, this is his old hardcore punk band, Abyss. Sven had no use for uns uns. And he didn't just hate techno. He hated the kinds of places that played it, at least in the town where he was from.

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397.877 - 409.127 Sven von Thülen

I grew up in a small town close to Hammerkopf Bremen. They didn't have spaces, so they had to go in all the, like, discotheques. And they looked like discotheques, so I could never relate to that.

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409.647 - 417.132 PJ Vogt

But then, in the mid-'90s, Sven moved to Berlin. And there, he found himself listening to techno in a different context, in different spaces.

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417.852 - 441.945 Sven von Thülen

In Berlin, obviously, you had all these spaces that were basically, like some of them were actually squatted, you know, like where you had like illegal clubs, illegal parties. And even if it wasn't maybe not illegal anymore, it was still like rough and ready kind of like real underground stuff. I would go to Tresor and it's like, oh yeah, I can totally relate to that. Now it makes sense to me.

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442.845 - 459.981 PJ Vogt

So it was seeing the places where the music was being played and understanding that they were underground and sort of illegal. To you, part of what you were looking for as a young punk kid, it didn't feel so clean and commercial and whatever.

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461.374 - 483.053 Sven von Thülen

Yeah, the DIY aspect of it. Because, you know, I was organizing concerts and we did all kinds of like labels and fanzines and like all this stuff. So everything was kind of DIY. And in Berlin, everything was DIY as well. And it was like, basically, we take over spaces and do something great. And it's, you know, for us and our friends.

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487.665 - 512.268 PJ Vogt

I remember having the same feeling as a teenager, but listening to punk music in Philly. When I tried to listen to it first as recorded music, I couldn't hear past its roughness. But then I went to my first shows. In some repurposed church basement, a DIY show where bands full of kids played for an audience of kids, all flying arms and spit and sweat. There, the music came alive for me.

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513.169 - 521.431 PJ Vogt

Likewise, Sven found he loved the people who he met at the squats and the empty warehouses where Berliners showed up to dance to this new music.

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522.251 - 539.916 Sven von Thülen

Realizing, okay, here are all the misfits. All the misfits of society are here and feel, today we'd say, safe here, welcome and all that. That, I had to see and experience that to fully, I understand that. And now I understand the music better as well.

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540.965 - 565.644 PJ Vogt

Sven was transformed in Berlin, from a hardcore kid to a raver. He became a DJ. He's actually DJed at Berghain. And he's written a history of Berlin techno called Der Klang der Familie, The Sound of the Family. He's now a full participant in the techno scene, a subculture he once thought he hated. Okay, can you just tell me, like, the origin story of techno music? Like, where is it born? Oh, God.

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566.965 - 586.191 Sven von Thülen

So, techno music. So in 1988, There was a seminal compilation that was released by a British label, Ten Records. That was the first compilation to basically showcase to the world the new dance sound of Detroit, which was techno.

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586.752 - 594.355 PJ Vogt

What was happening in Detroit that people were like, we should make music with synthesizers and dance to it? Why did that happen?

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595.12 - 603.985 Sven von Thülen

Well, there's this famous quote by Derek May who said, techno is like craftwork and parliament stuck in an elevator.

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605.886 - 626.983 PJ Vogt

Techno is like craftwork and parliament stuck in an elevator? Huh. I've always tried to understand music, any music, by listening to the lyrics. It's part of why techno is actually hard for me to crack. It just doesn't have many lyrics. But I need to understand techno because I've been told that that understanding is part of my mission, this plan to break into Berghain.

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628.204 - 648.331 PJ Vogt

And the story Sven has to tell me about techno, it's about all the meaning that gets imprinted into music without lyrics. It's about Detroit, this place that was in the 1970s, experiencing all this strange and inexpressible history, history that would somehow be encoded into techno as the music that was being invented here. So here's how that happens.

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649.171 - 671.176 PJ Vogt

At the end of the 1970s, the city of Detroit is in some trouble. The U.S. auto industry is beginning to sink, taking Motor City with it. But it's just the beginning of that decline. And Detroit still has something that was rare in American cities back then. A black middle class. In a Detroit suburb called Belleville, three of these middle class kids are obsessing about music.

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671.836 - 685.659 PJ Vogt

One of those kids is Derek May, who Sven just mentioned. The other two, Juan Atkins and Kevin Saunderson. They're staying up late, listening to this very weird radio show, hosted by a mysterious DJ named The Electrifying Mojo. Awesome. 84.

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687.711 - 711.52 The Electrifying Mojo

A trip down prototype of your musical future. The sound of sounds to come. It has long been the desire of the Metro to experience advanced sounds and concepts compatible with the technological advances of our time.

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712.779 - 727.626 PJ Vogt

That voice belongs to the DJ. And the crazy thing is that all this hyped up shit he's saying, the prototype of your musical future, the sounds of sounds to come, all of this is actually true. The electrifying mojo did see the future.

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728.362 - 738.057 The Electrifying Mojo

Welcome to Awesome 84. A trip to the future of music. Awesome 84. Awesome 84. Awesome.

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755.745 - 787.776 Sven von Thülen

And he mixed it all up. He would play whatever the B-52s, Prince. He would play electronic music that came over from Europe. So you had Kraftwerk, obviously you had like the Belgium stuff like Telex, Italo Disco, and he would kind of create these narratives and he was kind of a mystical figure as well.

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789.266 - 810.485 PJ Vogt

So you've got the electrifying mojo, this unusual visionary mixing genres on the radio that tamer DJs kept on separate dials or off the air entirely. He's playing records for five hours at a time. And you have these three kids from Belleville who are listening to this strange radio program. And it's not just them. A bunch of other young Detroiters are listening. Jeff Mills, Mad Mike Banks.

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811.285 - 846.882 PJ Vogt

And these listeners decide to start making their own music, inspired by the sounds they're hearing. Juan Atkins puts out a track called No UFOs. He's made it on an 8-track recorder and his Roland TR-909 drum machine. The track is synthy like Kraftwerk. The beat is funky like Parliament. There's also this doomed science fiction feeling to it. This dance track about UFOs over Detroit.

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858.973 - 873.446 PJ Vogt

This music isn't just imagining a future for Detroit, it also seems to be mourning its past. I hear that in this track Temptation by Final Cut. The four on the floor beats, they're construction sounds. The sounds of what the city is losing bleeding into this music.

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880.106 - 896.709 Sven von Thülen

It's been said like many times that being in Detroit at the time, kind of in a post-industrial city, the idea of the conveyor belt and that industrialness, that it all kind of played its role into how you approach making music.

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897.642 - 913.834 PJ Vogt

This new form of music, both enabled by technology and sometimes about technology, it ends up with an appropriate name, techno. Detroit would become known as the birthplace of techno, a metropolis where raves were thrown in grand abandoned buildings in the broken down city.

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914.755 - 937.28 PJ Vogt

Dancers entering spaces that didn't even have working lights, dancing while holding flashlights, catching glimpses of all sorts of strange human behavior in the dark. The feature of this music that I most notice is how it loops. It loops in a way that sounds, to some people, meaningless, but to others, deeply meaningful. What can seem repetitive often isn't.

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937.841 - 959.925 PJ Vogt

The same pattern returns, but now it's been complicated by some change in frequency or energy, an element added, an element removed. This is a stripped down, and it turns out, for many, surprisingly powerful kind of music. Techno would begin in Detroit, find homes in small pockets of cities in North America and Europe, perhaps most consequentially, Berlin.

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963.558 - 987.786 Sven von Thülen

Berlin in the late 80s was still divided. It was still the GDR and West Berlin had a really small scene. Like it was really just like, I don't know, a hundred people or something. Small, small. Yeah, small. Like really everybody knew each other by name, small. And there were music enthusiasts and dancers and like all of that.

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987.846 - 998.178 Sven von Thülen

And the music would obviously, you know, being played in like the two and a half clubs that West Berlin had at the time. And then for Berlin, the catalyst for everything was that the wall just came down.

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1003.524 - 1004.946 PJ Vogt

Back to the wall.

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1006.57 - 1007.711 Shruti Pinamaneni

So where are we right now?

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1007.731 - 1016.516 Gesine Kühne

We are on Warschauer Straße. Behind us is Oberbaumbrücke, which is a beautiful bridge.

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1018.097 - 1040.435 PJ Vogt

It's 3 p.m. now, and Shruti and I are walking with Gazina Kyuna. Gazina is a person we've been told to meet because she seems like a perfect guide. A club kid, but also a radio reporter who's covered the scene here for years. And a DJ. I'd been picturing my stereotype of an intimidating Berghain scene star, clad in four shades of black with an asymmetrical haircut.

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1041.055 - 1051.478 PJ Vogt

Gazina instead is all smiles, wearing a lavender sweatsuit and these big glasses. She has the energy of an enthusiastic substitute techno teacher, not yet burned out by the job.

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1051.923 - 1067.27 Gesine Kühne

We're staying in Friedrichshain because I wanted to show you Berghain, which is, by the way, the name stems from Kreuzberg and Friedrichshain. So the Berg from Kreuzberg and the Hein from Friedrichshain comes together in Berghain.

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1067.551 - 1071.072 PJ Vogt

Oh, so it's just, it's two neighborhoods portmanteau smashed up together.

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1071.252 - 1078.436 Gesine Kühne

Exactly. And so, blah. This is the explanation of the name. How boring, hey?

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1078.456 - 1080.137 Shruti Pinamaneni

I do think it would be more something.

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1080.917 - 1084.82 Gesine Kühne

Nah, it's not. It's very, very boring.

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1084.84 - 1103.435 PJ Vogt

Gazina tells me Berghain is actually closed on Wednesday, so all we can do this afternoon is study the club's perimeter. I still have a few days to do all my research before Klubnacht begins on Saturday. Berghain sits near a cluster of clubs, small, big, discreet, not, tucked along the banks of the river Spree.

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1103.928 - 1128.981 Gesine Kühne

On the right side, there's the RRW Gelände, we call it R.A.W., where it's a nice flea market on Sunday, and also certain little clubs, which are totally okay to start clubbing or as a tourist, actually, but be careful. A lot of shady drug dealers around here don't buy from them because it's apparently not so good.

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1129.861 - 1135.142 PJ Vogt

Gesine has lived in Berlin most of her life. She was born just outside the city in East Germany while the wall was still up.

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1135.902 - 1140.883 Gesine Kühne

We're going to go this way around because I want to show you the Todesstreifen.

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1141.044 - 1141.604 PJ Vogt

The death strip.

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1141.844 - 1142.664 Gesine Kühne

The death strip, yes.

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1142.724 - 1143.544 PJ Vogt

Todesstreifen?

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1143.564 - 1144.664 Gesine Kühne

Todesstreifen.

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1144.804 - 1151.446 PJ Vogt

Todesstreifen. Almost. Todesstreifen.

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1152.526 - 1155.327 Shruti Pinamaneni

It's the strip of death.

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1155.367 - 1176.36 PJ Vogt

Let's just say the death strip. During the Cold War, East Germany built what we call the Berlin Wall, which was actually two parallel walls with a big negative space between them. That negative space is the Death Strip, patrolled by guards with guns, dogs, surrounded by barbed wire. It was called the Death Strip because over 100 people were killed trying to pass.

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1177.642 - 1194.336 PJ Vogt

The Death Strip is Berlin's defining scar, but it's also crucial to our story today, weirdly because it's the cradle that will eventually birth the city's techno scene. But for Gesina, as a kid, before there's the music, there's just the wall. Her family lived in the Soviet-controlled East, the GDR.

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1195.076 - 1201.582 PJ Vogt

Gesina's father ended up on the wrong side of the secret police there, the Stasi, for what sounded to me like the dumbest possible reason.

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1202.287 - 1218.519 Gesine Kühne

When he was 16, he was actually knocked down by an old Stasi guy because he said something about the GDR, like something not even nasty, but saying, well, in this shitty place, you can't even get a lemonade because it was summer and all the lemonades were out, which happened.

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1219.159 - 1229.147 Gesine Kühne

And so he knew he always had this file and he couldn't move as he wanted to because... Because he complained about there being a lemonade deficit. Exactly.

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1235.683 - 1252.776 PJ Vogt

This stray complaint about lemonade, one time, it meant Gesine's family would always be surveilled, targeted. Reading about life under the Stasi gives me a deep chill. The Stasi tortured, they poisoned, but what they're most famous for today is the way they surveilled and smeared German citizens.

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1254.037 - 1275.567 PJ Vogt

Germany's commitment to privacy, its suspicion of internet companies and camera phones, I can't help but wonder if some of that traces back to this moment. The Stasi and their vast network of collaborators spied on everyone. They used secrets and rumors to destroy anyone in their way. Gossip wielded by idiots, a weapon of mass destruction.

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1276.587 - 1298.976 PJ Vogt

Today, Germans talk about privacy the way we talk about free speech. But Gazina's family, they actually found an escape from the East. In 1984, this door opened for them. Some East Germans were being allowed to go West, the West essentially paying the East for workers it needed. One day, Gazina's family found out they'd been selected.

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1299.736 - 1315.041 PJ Vogt

But the opportunity had come out of nowhere, and her mother wasn't ready. She needed time to prepare. So they came up with a story. Her parents told Gazina, six years old at the time, to pretend to be sick, to buy the family a little more time while the Stasi monitored them.

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1316.059 - 1339.353 Gesine Kühne

And we've been followed when we're driving around with the car. We've been followed by the Stasi all the time. And my parents always looked to the backseat and said to me, okay, when we arrive now, you're going to be sick again. You have to act sick. So I've been like holding my stomach and acting all sick and so on. So we got, I don't know, a couple more weeks in the GDR.

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1339.373 - 1362.137 Gesine Kühne

So mom could finish up whatever she had to finish up. And then we left. But the day you leave, they cut your passport and you're not a citizen of anywhere. Like you don't have a passport. You don't have an identity anymore, pretty much. And the good thing was us being Germans, when we went to West Berlin, you're instantly a German citizen. So that was kind of good.

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1365.792 - 1386.418 Gesine Kühne

46 or 40 years later, actually, wow. I have to deal with that a lot. I'm actually trying to work through things because we're ripped out of our environment and now slowly realizing how much harm it actually did.

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1390.7 - 1409.517 PJ Vogt

Gazina's family moved to the part of West Berlin that was specifically for people coming in from the East, as she describes it, a quasi-refugee camp. Life there would end up being challenging. Her brother was badly bullied in school and turned around and bullied her. Her parents, who had been much more present in the East, now disappeared into work.

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1410.376 - 1425.208 PJ Vogt

leaving her and her brother home alone with the television. For her parents, life in the East was the bad memory. For Gesina, who left all that so young, it's the West, this strange new country that changed her family, that left a bruise that stuck around.

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1425.228 - 1427.55 PJ Vogt

Okay, so where are we?

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1428.09 - 1435.496 Gesine Kühne

So this is part of the wall, which is like now a monument, East Side Gallery, with lots of different paintings along the wall.

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1436.343 - 1455.258 PJ Vogt

We're standing with our backs to what's left of the east side of the Berlin Wall. It's covered in street art and graffiti now. Nearby, there's a field of grass and dirt, and then the river. Honestly, as far as monuments go, it's not much. The wall fell on November 89, and the two cities that had been kept apart rushed to join each other.

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1456.159 - 1461.723 PJ Vogt

It's strange to think that this place where we're talking, anyone standing here would have been shot. It's just a field.

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1462.315 - 1472.322 Gesine Kühne

This would have been the death strip because then the canal was also part of the wall or of the no-go area. And then behind it is Kreuzberg on the other side.

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1472.342 - 1476.205 Shruti Pinamaneni

The size of this strip is pretty crazy. It's just so expansive.

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1477.045 - 1489.574 Gesine Kühne

Yeah, we can walk towards the water. So yeah, here is where Bar 25 used to be. And now it's like Katerblau and the whole area. But Bar 25 was also quite safe.

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1490.796 - 1508.151 PJ Vogt

Gazina starts pointing downriver to this spot. A decommissioned soap factory turned into a club, which closed and turned into another club. I know exactly the feeling she's having. Like anybody who's lived somewhere long enough, she's looking at the city, but she's seeing all the cities that used to be here underneath it.

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1509.212 - 1539.907 PJ Vogt

Berlin in the 1990s, a decade, really, of parties, many of them technically illegal, occupying spaces for a few years, maybe longer, before disappearing. A good party is typically about celebrating something, a birthday, a promotion. But the truly great ones, they're almost always about release. the Germans grabbed ahold of Techno, the height of the fire of the scene they built here.

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1540.627 - 1600.032 PJ Vogt

This was a country with decades of awful, unspeakable history, trying now to find a way to move forward. I'm gonna tell you the story of the one party that towered over all the others, a party that somehow tied all these strange threads of time and history together. After the break, I'm gonna tell you the story of Tresor. Search Engine is brought to you by Fresh Direct. I really like Fresh Direct.

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1600.512 - 1619.425 PJ Vogt

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1620.065 - 1637.947 PJ Vogt

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1638.668 - 1659.38 PJ Vogt

I mean, I had other stuff too, but the fennel was really good. For over 20 years, Fresh Direct has been delivering the freshest fruits, vegetables, and meats to the tri-state area. Don't take my word for it. Try to believe it with $50 off your first order. Go to freshdirect.com and use code SEARCHENGINE. That's freshdirect.com, code SEARCHENGINE, for new customers to save $50 on their first order.

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1660.16 - 1683.718 PJ Vogt

Terms and restrictions apply. See site for details. Search Engine is brought to you by Rosetta Stone. There's a lot of reasons to learn a new language. One of my favorites, cognitive benefits, improved brain function. My brain has not been very good. Studies have shown that learning a new language can improve memory, problem solving skills, and even delay the onset of dementia.

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1684.339 - 1701.01 PJ Vogt

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1702.711 - 1725.615 PJ Vogt

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1726.395 - 1766.731 PJ Vogt

Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash search engine today. Act Three, The Vault. In the 1910s, before the Nazis took over, the biggest department store in Europe was a store called Wertheim. Founded by George Wertheim, a Jewish man, his chain's flagship store was the one in Berlin. There's photos of it from before the destruction. It's worth looking them up.

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1767.431 - 1791.338 PJ Vogt

Honestly, Storr doesn't really describe it. Really, it's a cathedral, featuring an enormous light-filled atrium, beautiful frescoes, 83 elevators somehow. In 1933, the Nazis start picketing the store. There's a photo of them standing outside holding their signs, don't buy from Jews. Wertheim is forced to hand his store over to non-Jewish Germans. He dies of pneumonia in 1939.

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1791.659 - 1816.826 PJ Vogt

The store itself is destroyed a few years later by Allied bombs. What's left is razed to make more room for the wall. The former Wertheim location, unfortunately, falls in the death strip. In the end, all that's left, some rubble and the old vault that was beneath the store. It's like every horrible decision Germany made for 50 years, they also made on this one building, Wertheim.

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1818.168 - 1824.493 PJ Vogt

And then the wall falls. Sven von Thulen, the DJ techno historian, picks up the story of Wertheim here.

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1825.742 - 1855.823 Sven von Thülen

During the war, the building was destroyed, but the vault was still there. And then on top of the wall was just a kind of small bungalow, shack, whatever you want to call it. And it was situated right at the former death strip. This whole area, there was nothing. It was only like debris, sand. It was empty.

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1856.263 - 1886.117 Sven von Thülen

So when they found the place by chance, Johnny Stieler from the East and Achim Kohlberger and Dimitri Hegemann from West Berlin, they were driving around like, we want to open a club in East Berlin. And basically, by chance, saw this shack It's like, well, what's that? So they parked their car, went in, and the door was open. They kind of looked around and it didn't look so special.

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1886.137 - 1914.833 Sven von Thülen

But then they found this door. It's like, where does this door lead? And then they opened the door, and then it was just like dark, wet stairs going down into the basement. And they were like, huh, okay. And... So they had their lighters, went down around the corner, and then they suddenly stood in front of these, like in a prison, like rusty steel bars and like a big vault steel door.

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1916.274 - 1943.418 Sven von Thülen

And they were like, what is this? And they all knew it was empty for at least 30 years. There was nothing. They basically, the air they would breathe, like when they went down, it was like kind of old. They all said it was kind of like a spiritual experience. They said when they got out, they didn't talk.

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1943.759 - 1953.926 Sven von Thülen

They didn't talk for like half an hour because they were like completely like in this mixture of in awe, in shock. They all knew this is it. This is the place.

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1957.153 - 1971.819 PJ Vogt

This place would become the site of a club called Tresor, German for vaults, the jewel of the city's new techno scene, years before that title was seized by Berghain. Tresor, a nightclub, but also a portal between Berlin and Detroit.

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1972.859 - 1982.403 PJ Vogt

One of the men in the car that day, Dimitri Hageman, had already been flying to America, even signing some Detroit DJs to his label, getting their music into his West Berlin club before the wall fell.

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1983.203 - 2002.53 PJ Vogt

But now, Tresor would be where Detroiters like Derek May, Jeff Mills, Juan Atkins could now fly out and spin techno records for ecstatic Germans, sometimes quite literally ecstatic, MDMA a large part of the scene at the time. These American DJs were finding that the techno they made at home meant something else here in Germany.

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2004.192 - 2023.989 PJ Vogt

This place that had been so stuck in its own history loved this music, whose power lay in how it looped. It looped in a way that sounded to some people meaningless, but to others, deeply meaningful. The music looped. Sometimes the stories about it did too. One of the Germans converted to techno in the sweaty dungeon of Tresor, Gesine Kühne,

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2025.08 - 2045.133 PJ Vogt

Although before Gazina loved electronic music, she actually hated it. Her association with dance music was this cloying, repetitive, syrupy stuff that was sledging out of Europe in the 1990s. But then a friend of hers told her that there were these strange new underground clubs populating the empty parts of the city. And he invited her to come explore them.

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2045.674 - 2054.079 Gesine Kühne

My best friend, Martin, who is such a soul in all kinds of ways, he started taking me to those places. And one was Tresor.

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2055.373 - 2061.531 PJ Vogt

Trezor was a turning point for Sven von Thulen too, the site of his conversion. Do you remember just the first time you went to Trezor?

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2062.734 - 2068.416 Sven von Thülen

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember the first time I went to Tresor. I went right down the basement.

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2068.796 - 2085.083 Gesine Kühne

Downstairs was super interesting with the old compartments and the very famous Stahlgitter here. What do you have in a prison? What's it called? The steel bars, which looked like, you know, a cell kind of thing.

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2086.081 - 2090.585 Sven von Thülen

It was full of, you know, fog and the strobe was going off.

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2090.865 - 2110.444 Gesine Kühne

And you walked in there and there was the techno floor, that was the trésor floor where techno was played. And I was standing on the floor there and looking around me because I felt a bit uncomfortable because that was loud and strobe lighting was always a bit weird for my eyes. And then it became all dark.

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2111.084 - 2127.749 Sven von Thülen

and I couldn't see anything and the next thing I know I just fell because there was like a speaker on the ground and I was like and then I went to the wall kind of like where's the wall where am I and it took me a little bit to adjust

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2129.629 - 2156.967 Gesine Kühne

And I felt something wet dripping on my nose. And I'm just like looked up, couldn't really see. But then the straw was started. I'm like, oh, that's like sweat from the ceiling. That's very interesting. And then the kick drum kicked in. So like pure bass in my stomach and I felt it in my stomach and that was such an amazing feeling.

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2157.027 - 2174.419 Gesine Kühne

Like seriously, I was standing there a bit like I had an epiphany or maybe Jesus came to me. I was like, oh, I understand. I looked at Martin and I'm like, I understand now. Okay. And I didn't drink or anything back then. I was pure, pure energy of the music.

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2185.655 - 2210.084 Sven von Thülen

Forget that. Funnily enough, I kind of started my DJing at Tresor as well because a friend of mine, she was cleaning Tresor at the time and I didn't have turntables yet. So she was like, you know what, just come over while I clean. So I was there quite often on Saturday, Sunday afternoons, basically playing and cleaning.

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2211.468 - 2214.389 Shruti Pinamaneni

I was aware of Berlin Wall fell as a historical event.

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2214.429 - 2223.711 PJ Vogt

I had not spent that much time really thinking about the emotional reality of it and the strangeness of its existence and the strangeness of its end. The way you talk about that,

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2234.913 - 2263.195 PJ Vogt

it's a combination of like it's so beautiful like as an expression of like human freedom and joy and so strange like it's so strange to me that that there would be a city divided where two different economic models were in competition with each other where people had to live these like very constrained lives and that when you set those people free it turns out the thing that they're gonna do is have computers make music for them and shake their asses in like

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2264.096 - 2267.919 PJ Vogt

this dungeon-y, like, bombed-out buildings. It's so strange.

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2269.66 - 2293.457 Sven von Thülen

Yeah, I mean, you cannot make it up, in a way. It just kind of coincided perfectly. There was this whole optimism, you know? Like, the end of the Cold War, the future is bright. Like, ah, we had impending nuclear war. Like, all of that was like, ah, no, it's gone. And then you have all these possibilities suddenly. You have the spaces, you have zero economic pressure. You didn't have...

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2294.264 - 2310.777 Sven von Thülen

You didn't pay taxes. You didn't do anything. You just did, right? It felt like an exorcism for a lot of Germans, like the exorcism of the Second World War, Nazi Germany, the separation, all of that.

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2311.257 - 2322.106 Gesine Kühne

Even I have trouble sometimes finding words for the history I have within my body and having something like techno where everyone comes together and people with no agenda on both sides.

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2322.606 - 2343.886 Sven von Thülen

There were still, you know, conflicts and all that. But overall, whereas in the rest of German society, a lot of shit went down, a lot of infighting, you know, and a lot of like blame going back and forth between East and West and all of that. But it really wasn't an issue in the club scene at all. It didn't matter if you're from the East or West.

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2343.926 - 2347.829 Sven von Thülen

It was like reunification first started on the dance floor.

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2353.598 - 2365.367 PJ Vogt

For Sven, Trezor is where the new city began, where he learned to love techno music, where he found a path for his life in a former vault where sweat and chunks of plaster routinely dripped from the ceiling into people's drinks.

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2366.188 - 2383.801 PJ Vogt

And this was the scene that would, over the years, draw an international crowd, people from all over the world who had no real feelings about a unified Germany or the scars of the Cold War, but who could recognize a good party and who wanted to join one. Trezor would lose its original location. A lot of those early clubs would disappear.

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2384.541 - 2414.597 PJ Vogt

At some point, the egalitarian, anyone-can-join-the-party vibe would fade, replaced with something more exclusive. A new, intimidating club, which drew foreigners, even ones who didn't know very much about techno, but who just heard there was a room that was very hard to enter, a room they now wanted to try to get into. Berghain. It's still Wednesday afternoon.

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2415.097 - 2428.4 PJ Vogt

Our stroll with Gazina, the DJ and radio reporter, continues. She's about to show us Berghain's outside, the castle's exterior. We leave the park and its remnants of the old Berlin Wall, and we walk towards our destination, just a few minutes away.

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2429.022 - 2437.547 Gesine Kühne

We're going to get there from the side, which isn't maybe as... Cinematic? Yeah, bombastic. But I think you still get the gist of it.

0
💬 0

2437.807 - 2438.127 PJ Vogt

Okay.

0
💬 0

2438.727 - 2442.389 Gesine Kühne

You can already see. Is that it? Yeah, you can already see part of Berghain there.

0
💬 0

2442.569 - 2443.65 PJ Vogt

Oh, it's enormous.

0
💬 0

2443.79 - 2446.511 Gesine Kühne

It's huge. Like, seriously, it's so, so big.

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2447.712 - 2467.631 PJ Vogt

Berghain takes me by surprise somehow. We're walking down a side street when suddenly the top of this massive building appears in the distance. It doesn't look like a power plant. It's palatial, with double-height, skinny rectangular windows. Honestly, to my eye, it looks like an industrial version of Buckingham Palace, maybe one occupied by squatters.

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2468.732 - 2478.242 PJ Vogt

For Gesina, if Trezor was the site of her techno conversion, Berghain is the church she now visits most regularly. Can you tell me the first time you went to Berghain?

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2479.226 - 2497.758 Gesine Kühne

Yes and no, because when I start telling those stories to my a bit younger friends, when they ask you, what was your first time to Berghain? How long? That's what they ask. They're like, how long have you been coming here? This is the question I get. I'm like, you know what? I've been going to Osgut. This is how long I've been coming here.

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2498.078 - 2512.479 Gesine Kühne

And this is where I say grandma is starting to tell stories from before the war. It's okay, Grandma, let's get you to bed. So my first Berghain experience was not Berghain, it was Ostgut.

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2512.659 - 2514.2 PJ Vogt

Which is the predecessor to Berghain.

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2514.44 - 2515.48 Gesine Kühne

Richtig, exactly.

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2516.701 - 2533.482 PJ Vogt

Gesina said she went there to see one of her friends DJ. The line was short back then, but Sven Markart was already manning the door. Two decades younger, his reputation already firmly established. When Ostgut morphed into Berghain, it kept the same values, secrecy and privacy for its guests.

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2534.423 - 2540.805 PJ Vogt

Walking toward the club, Gesine explains that even today, when you enter, your phone is taken so its camera lens can be covered.

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2541.325 - 2552.73 Gesine Kühne

No photos, so you get your stickers on. Can't take any pictures in there. It doesn't matter what kind of performance or whatsoever you're going, it's always stickered. Here, look, this.

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2553.743 - 2558.025 PJ Vogt

Oh, what's that? There's a little green sticker on the ground. Yeah, well, this is... Is that a Berghain sticker? This is this.

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2558.305 - 2558.485 Gesine Kühne

Yes.

0
💬 0

2559.165 - 2560.345 PJ Vogt

Oh, it goes right over the lens.

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2560.385 - 2567.188 Gesine Kühne

Those are, like, um... I mean, they're, like, mostly neon-colored. And you see, there's a yellow one. Yeah, there's a bunch. There's an orange one.

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2567.348 - 2569.529 PJ Vogt

There's Berghain shrapnel just a couple blocks away.

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2569.569 - 2569.749 Gesine Kühne

Yeah.

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2570.802 - 2584.833 PJ Vogt

We pass through a small park, a former train lot, concrete and graffiti-covered benches. We pop around a corner, and now Shruti, Gazina, and I are standing by what seems to be the side of Berghain. I notice this unassuming metal door that looks like a service entrance, maybe.

0
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2585.174 - 2589.097 Unknown

So the main line just goes this way, and then to the left. No, no, this is the door.

0
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2590.219 - 2612.149 PJ Vogt

This is the main door of Berghain. We're here already. 4.30 p.m. on a Wednesday. The club is closed. No one's outside. A gray door, sealed tight and graffitied. This will be where the line ends on Klubnacht. In front of the door, a series of waist-high metal gates to corral that line. And overlooking it all, I noticed two prominent white security cameras.

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2612.99 - 2620.614 PJ Vogt

The scene does not feel like what you'd see outside of a nightclub. It feels like what you'd see in front of a tiny patch of the Berlin Wall. high security.

0
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2621.495 - 2629.505 Unknown

I have a question, actually. Yes. So is there a way to sneak in, i.e., has anyone snuck into Burkhart?

0
💬 0

2629.986 - 2636.954 Gesine Kühne

Not that I know of, because, I mean, look at it. You have barbed wire, you have cameras there at the door.

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2637.694 - 2654.36 PJ Vogt

Gazina says, highly unlikely, just given how tight the security is here, the sheer number of people who work the door. But she also uses the opportunity to point out, people sort of misunderstand these bouncers, these doormen, these gatekeepers, everyone obsesses over and sometimes reviles.

0
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2654.981 - 2657.301 Gesine Kühne

Let's talk about any bouncer in the city.

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💬 0

2657.341 - 2661.023 PJ Vogt

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not the place that we're standing 10 feet away from.

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2661.897 - 2688.331 Gesine Kühne

I know it's a very delicate topic, very delicate, because you select. And selecting people has a very bad ring to it. Very bad. Very, very bad. Also, the selector, calling it a selector, has a very Nazi ring to it as well. That's really bad. I've always thought that, yes. Really bad, yeah. So I don't want to say that term because it's nasty. And given our history, even worse.

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2690.252 - 2718.267 Gesine Kühne

The thing is, which makes it so delicate, is that they decide about you within milliseconds. Not even seconds, but like less than that. Like in a very, very short amount of time. They look at you, they check you out, and then decide, do you fit tonight? Not just in general, do you fit tonight or not? And then they might ask questions. Hey, where are you coming from? How old are you?

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2718.487 - 2742.737 Gesine Kühne

Or who's playing? They ask a lot, like, who's playing tonight? Just to see if they're really into the music. But they really decide how the party's gonna turn out. The thing is, in my club life, I kind of grew up with bouncers. It's a weird thing to say, but I always felt like every part of the club is very important, not only the DJ. And I was always very fond of the bouncers.

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2742.897 - 2770.803 Gesine Kühne

I always became friends with them, different clubs in the city, and stood there with them. and realized how much trouble they have to go through, like how much hate they get. And that's why they also have to be a bit more strict and kind of the feel of being intimidating. But usually they're not. And usually, very, very important, a good bouncer is a very smart person, by the way.

0
💬 0

2770.823 - 2780.945 Gesine Kühne

It's not a dumb, whatever, broad person that was just casted out of the gym with big muscles. No, not at all. The best bouncers are super smart people.

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2780.965 - 2784.186 Shruti Pinamaneni

Standing here doesn't look so bad.

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💬 0

2784.246 - 2790.107 Gesine Kühne

Does the line go much, much farther back? It's just going to lead the way to where the line sometimes goes to.

0
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2792.216 - 2811.543 PJ Vogt

Gazina walks us away from the door, away from Berghain. We're now walking down a concrete path. We pass by a closed Imbiss, a German snack shop, whose entire business seems to be selling food to Berghain's line supplicants. We walk, and we walk, this currently empty path that in a few nights will be filled with pilgrims.

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2812.664 - 2831.05 PJ Vogt

We walk to the end of the road, and then we turn around and behold the grandest view of Castle Berghain. I imagine for a moment the ghosts of Chris and Dan, making minor dance movements here, wondering if the club can perceive them, and if so, what it's thinking. So if you were here, how many, would it be like a couple of hours?

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2831.621 - 2845.709 Gesine Kühne

Yeah, probably. I mean, the longest my husband waited with his friends was seven hours. Seven hours? That was the day where two guys got rejected and he and his good friend got in.

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💬 0

2846.23 - 2852.854 PJ Vogt

And so they waited seven hours in line, half of their party was rejected, and he was like, I'm so sorry, I'll see you tomorrow?

0
💬 0

2853.612 - 2870.136 Gesine Kühne

Well, yeah, you go in and like, you know, our favorite DJ was playing. So it was so funny because I was just, I was walking a friend to the train station and I came back and walked in just 20 minutes after him, after he had waited for seven hours.

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💬 0

2870.516 - 2871.376 PJ Vogt

Because you were on the list?

0
💬 0

2871.896 - 2872.756 Gesine Kühne

No, I wasn't on the list.

0
💬 0

2872.936 - 2873.456 PJ Vogt

Oh, really?

0
💬 0

2874.877 - 2880.198 Gesine Kühne

That's the thing about knowing bounces quite well, you know? And belonging, I guess.

0
💬 0

2882.912 - 2896.486 PJ Vogt

Gazina talking about waltzing into Berghain without waiting in line, without even being on a list, is a little funny to me. Elon Musk reportedly was not only rejected by a doorman here, but rejected despite being on a guest list.

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2897.335 - 2919.484 PJ Vogt

But Gesina, who is just a very normal adult Berliner, a person who owns zero electric car companies, actually stitches together a lot of jobs to make ends meet, for her, Berghain is just the place she belongs. It reminds me of that conversation with Lutz from the last episode, where he explained how a nightclub is in fact a club that, here at least, you can't buy your way in.

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💬 0

2920.644 - 2929.258 PJ Vogt

At this point, I make a confession to Gesina. I'm thinking myself about trying the door on Sunday. She looks at me and Shruti appraisingly.

0
💬 0

2929.918 - 2936.182 Gesine Kühne

The thing is, I would say at the moment, Shruti would get in and you would be rejected.

0
💬 0

2936.362 - 2937.403 PJ Vogt

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

0
💬 0

2937.523 - 2938.884 Gesine Kühne

You look so American.

0
💬 0

2939.304 - 2939.644 PJ Vogt

Yeah.

0
💬 0

2939.944 - 2942.426 Gesine Kühne

They can sense you from miles away.

0
💬 0

2942.446 - 2945.308 PJ Vogt

And Americans are not, like, adored at Berghain.

0
💬 0

2945.608 - 2949.47 Gesine Kühne

Not really. Sorry. I get it.

0
💬 0

2950.531 - 2959.368 PJ Vogt

For the record, I want to say I am dressed badly, as is my custom. I've never really figured out pants. So it's not that I'm dressed frumpily, it's that I'm dressed Americanly?

0
💬 0

2959.608 - 2963.052 Gesine Kühne

Yeah. Yeah. You just look very American.

0
💬 0

2964.773 - 2968.357 PJ Vogt

That's a tough one. Okay, but here's what's hard. So you say that. I totally agree.

0
💬 0

2968.678 - 2991.296 PJ Vogt

And I'm like, but like, if the club is supposed to... It's early evening when we say goodbye to Gazina and leave Friedrichshain. I'm still jet-lagged and a little confused. I eat a donor kebab at dinner with some American friends. They want to hit the bars. I try, but I find myself falling asleep into a gin and tonic. I tell myself, it's the first night, there'll be others.

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💬 0

2992.057 - 3015.289 PJ Vogt

I say goodbye, and my friends forge on in search of an adventure. Which, for them, does not quite work out. What happens is they go from bar to bar, but then somewhat randomly end up outside the Kit Kat club, a very famous fetish club where the dress code runs towards leather gear or else basically nothing. My friends show up at the door dressed in comfortable American tech worker fleeces.

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💬 0

3016.209 - 3066.229 PJ Vogt

The bouncer is horrified. He looks at them and says, no, no, this is impossible. We are a fetish club. Please go home. Read our website. The Americans seem to find this experience completely entertaining, a good story to take home. Through all of this, I am asleep. Despite visions of Berghain doorman Sven Marquardt, I have no nightmares. Search Engine is brought to you by Betterment.

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3066.994 - 3079.719 PJ Vogt

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3080.299 - 3096.306 PJ Vogt

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3120.342 - 3140.921 PJ Vogt

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3162.714 - 3180.162 PJ Vogt

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3180.302 - 3198.203 PJ Vogt

Waiting periods, annual deductibles, co-insurance, benefit limits, and exclusions may apply. For all terms, visit spotpetins.com slash sample policy. Insurance plans are underwritten by either Independent American Insurance Company or United States Fire Insurance Company and produced by Spot Pet Insurance Services LLC. Search Engine is brought to you by Discover Doublenomics.

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3198.884 - 3215.512 PJ Vogt

We discuss all things finance and economics here, but have you heard about Doublenomics? It's okay if you haven't because we like to keep you in the know and it's extremely niche. Here's an example of Doublenomics. Discover automatically doubles the cash back earned on your credit card at the end of your first year with cash back match.

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3215.832 - 3254.398 PJ Vogt

That means with Discover, you could turn $150 cash back to 300. It pays to Discover. See terms at discover.com slash credit card. Act five, intoxication. Thursday morning, I wake up still pretty jet-lagged. I go to get a table at a coffee shop in Friedrichshain, and standing, waiting, I behold a sight I'm pretty sure is a hallucination.

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3255.358 - 3260.7 PJ Vogt

I snap a photo just to be sure, and then go find Shruti to learn if I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing.

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3261.38 - 3266.941 Shruti Pinamaneni

Can I show you a picture that I just took? Yeah. Look who is sitting at the cafe.

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3274.052 - 3284.405 PJ Vogt

Sven. Sven Markart, Haunter of My Dreams. Not at all. It's a high-risk maneuver.

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3284.445 - 3285.126 Unknown

Oh, come on.

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3286.391 - 3302.603 PJ Vogt

The recording stops here because I realize I'm about to debase myself and don't want to record it. I will just say, we have an argument, which I win, and the end result is Shruthi has to go say hello. She compliments Sven on his photographs, which, if you haven't seen them, honestly are quite beautiful.

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3303.624 - 3322.914 PJ Vogt

Sven is gracious, no one spontaneously combusts, but he also does not hand Shruti two secret golden tickets into Berghain. My efforts to melt into this scene will have to proceed differently. I delete the photo from my phone, we leave the coffee shop, and we head to a very different part of the city to meet somebody connected to the techno scene.

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0
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3349.681 - 3356.667 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

Yes, I'm Jerry. Hi, Jerry. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you as well.

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3357.567 - 3360.95 PJ Vogt

We settle into a meeting room. It's a nice one. Wayne's scouting for days.

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3361.55 - 3363.372 Shruti Pinamaneni

When did you arrive? Yes.

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3367.193 - 3382.294 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

First things first, can you just say your name and what you do? My name is Philipp Schröder-Ringe, and I'm a lawyer. And what type of law do you practice? Event laws have many clients from the event industry, like clubs or organizers, festivals, etc.

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3385.546 - 3405.138 PJ Vogt

In a normal city, talking to a lawyer would not be a good way to break into or understand the techno scene. But we're in Berlin, where a lot of the grownups are former or not so former club kids. Philip says he grew up haunting West Germany's club scene, even through parties of his own. But that was then. He's been a lawyer for 15 or so years now.

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3406.199 - 3416.308 PJ Vogt

Philip, a handsome man, 45, but looks about a decade younger, apparently dancing is good for you, He told me about the kind of work that a grown-up club lawyer finds himself engaged in.

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3416.328 - 3440.192 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

The typical problems where we could help with is, for example, noise issues with the neighbors, for example. Clubs are too loud or festivals, concerts need noise permission. And we try to get these kinds of permission. We help the organizers to fight back neighbors that have an issue with these permits, and then we go to court.

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3440.472 - 3448.759 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

By the way, did you realize that Berlin technoculture became a UNESCO World Cultural Heritage? Yesterday, right? It was yesterday.

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3449.349 - 3469.618 PJ Vogt

I'm not gonna play all the times this moment happens in a recorded conversation this week, we're both better than that, but it's a lot. Over and over again, someone will ask me, have I heard about the UNESCO news? And it's true. March 13th, the day we arrive in Berlin, Berlin Techno is declared a UNESCO cultural heritage site.

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3470.618 - 3487.251 PJ Vogt

UNESCO world heritage sites include the Great Wall of China and the Acropolis. Berlin Techno is technically considered an intangible cultural heritage site. But still, Philip says, as a lawyer, this UNESCO designation will be useful ammunition in his ongoing battles.

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3488.541 - 3498.18 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

Because when you have to outweigh the interests between neighbors and club owners, it will be a bit easier to get the permits with this decision now.

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3498.746 - 3515.453 PJ Vogt

And it's a way of saying, basically all of these things amount to the same thing, which is the city is constantly having to make choices about whether to favor the needs of a resident or a business. And what something like this does is it lets culture make its argument as well.

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3515.513 - 3521.996 PJ Vogt

To say, this might inconvenience a neighbor in this way, or this might prevent this other business from opening here, but we are deciding to preserve our culture.

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3522.757 - 3523.137 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

Exactly.

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3524.178 - 3541.381 PJ Vogt

The UNESCO designation may be a sign that Berlin's nightlife has won its multi-decade war for legitimacy, a war which Philip played a role in. Philip had been there in the 2000s, when this new generation of Berlin clubs had to fight against being wiped out by a proposed new tax designation.

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3542.458 - 3562.09 PJ Vogt

This was the story I'd heard in broad strokes before from Lutz Leixenring in the last episode, but I wanted to hear it from Philip, who'd actually helped put the club's legal argument together. A refresher, just in case you need it, in the early 2000s, underground techno clubs in Berlin had been taxed mostly as concert venues, which paid pretty low taxes to the city.

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3562.87 - 3586.907 PJ Vogt

The tax authorities wanted to start charging the clubs at entertainment rates to treat them all like garden-variety discotheques, which would mean almost 20% of all the clubs' earnings went to the city. And Berghain and other clubs like it wouldn't just owe 20% going forward. They'd have to pay those taxes retroactively as well. And for the club owners, was it existential?

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3586.947 - 3591.43 PJ Vogt

Were there clubs that were worried that they would go out of business if they had to pay this bill? Absolutely.

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3591.67 - 3607.943 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

Yeah, we're talking about like hundreds of thousands of euros. It would have been like an earthquake and it would have been dramatic. And I think there would have been some clubs that had to close the doors if they had to pay back all that money. So it was existential, absolutely.

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3609.198 - 3624.89 PJ Vogt

So in 2011, Philip's law firm starts meeting with the club commission and certain club owners, he can't say which ones, but let's say some key players. They meet with the tax authorities to make their case. Bureaucrats and club owners in a room together, hashing it out.

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3625.27 - 3653.403 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

I remember it was at the top of the building, very impressive old building. And we were sitting there with older people gray-haired people that didn't look like they would go clubbing. And we sat there together with the different club owners. I couldn't say who was there, but they also tried to dress up a bit and to behave seriously in that situation.

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3654.383 - 3660.348 PJ Vogt

These club kids in suits had to defend the thing they did at night as meaningful. Discussion ensued.

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3661.148 - 3683.47 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

And that was a very funny conversation because you have to agree on two things for the reduced taxes. First, it has to be a concert, so you need an artist. So we had discussions about the DJs being artists. How do they use instruments? What are they doing there? And the tax authorities was of the opinion that, no, this is not art.

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3683.55 - 3688.297 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

I mean, you put on a CD or LP and you just let it play, it's no art.

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3689.318 - 3712.115 PJ Vogt

So that's the first point of contention. Is a DJ an artist? The second point was, even if they are, is a DJ set really like a concert? One way you could define a concert would be fans pay for tickets and the price of the ticket is based on how famous the artist is and how close to the artist the fan gets to sit. The fiscal authorities, looking at a techno club, did not see that happening.

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3712.895 - 3733.848 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

And fiscal authorities, they said, oh, no, we checked it, and you have bars, and you drink very much, and you have low entrance price. You make much more with drinks. So this holds against a concert. And what also holds against is that people don't know who's playing, who's the DJ. And the DJ is not like on a concert on a big stage. He's maybe in the corner.

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3733.888 - 3757.297 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

There's no light and people move around and they don't really care who's playing there. And we went into all this discussion and said, OK, come on, look, we have lower entrance fees because we want to provide opportunity for many people to enjoy club life. But at the same time, the clubs pay a lot for the DJs. I mean, they have residents, they have international DJs, they are well-known.

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3757.337 - 3764.642 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

Of course people come because they want to see these DJs. They celebrate the DJ. If he's doing a good job, then they're applauding, they are cheering.

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3765.303 - 3784.878 PJ Vogt

Slow down for a second. These tax authorities who you're having these conversations with, are they people who are more used to rock shows? Yes. Because if you just think about it, like, is there any reason why when a rock band plays, we all stand and watch them strum a guitar? We could celebrate it by standing away from the band and dancing.

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3784.918 - 3791.684 PJ Vogt

Like, it makes you think about the arbitrariness of how we celebrate music together in modern life. It's very strange.

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3792.245 - 3817.988 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

Yeah, it is like a very old school, maybe... prussian way of looking at concerts like everybody has to sit in a row and be quiet and do nothing else but listen and i had a good feeling after this conversation that we have the better arguments obviously yeah but the fiscal authorities and these people didn't agree and instead they went to court

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3821.021 - 3828.148 PJ Vogt

The club that would fight the fiscal authorities in court was, of course, Berghain. Or, as the Germans call it, the Berghain.

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3828.548 - 3841.461 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

I was very happy that it was the Berghain, because it is still one of the most famous clubs of Germany. And if it wouldn't work here, it wouldn't work for other clubs.

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3842.89 - 3860.022 PJ Vogt

Similar arguments will be made in open court to the ones Philip and his team had made behind closed doors. But here, those arguments seem to fall on more sympathetic ears. The court agrees. DJs don't just press play on CDs. They have synths and mixers and faders. They change the pitch and the frequency of their tracks.

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3861.143 - 3894.675 PJ Vogt

But then the tax officials argue, don't people just go to Berghain and places like it to get intoxicated? And here, the club lawyer concedes the point. Yes, they do. But he had a question. Wasn't intoxication so often the point of listening to music? The lawyer's example. What was the feeling you were meant to have when listening to a piece by Gustav Mahler, if not intoxication?

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3916.849 - 3917.189

Berghain wins.

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3917.209 - 3918.81

The court had sided with the club kids.

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3934.36 - 3935.92 PJ Vogt

Did people celebrate? Did people go out?

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3937.561 - 3938.801 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

If they did, I was not invited.

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3938.821 - 3948.024 Unknown

I don't know.

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3948.184 - 3965.879 PJ Vogt

Does that mean there's a pressure on these clubs in the wake of these rulings to behave artistically, whatever that would mean, or behave culturally, whatever that would mean? Does it push people... towards a kind of conventions or rules with an eye towards the tax authority?

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3966.556 - 3991.083 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

I don't think that they changed the program or the culture. But what they are doing now is, of course, to do their paperwork. So they make sure that the running order is published before, like online or on social media, that they have scans of their flyers. And maybe you realize if you go out here, they might ask you if you know who's playing tonight.

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3991.283 - 4000.233 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

So this is also something they do since the discussion started to make sure that the people come to the club because of the resident did and DJ or whatever.

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4000.253 - 4022.67 PJ Vogt

This was a story that I heard all the way in New York, that if you go to the door at a place like Berghain you may be asked who the DJ is. And then later I'd heard rumors that this was partly as a result of German tax law. I love a good story. That seems crazy. Is that, because I feel like, is that true? That like you can draw a line from that tax decision to that question?

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4023.07 - 4027.093 Philipp Schröder-Ringe

Yeah, it starts from the discussion with the tax authorities, I'm sure.

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4027.113 - 4054.807 PJ Vogt

ACT VI Techno loops. The story's about a doo-doo sometimes. When I'd first heard this story from Lutz, I liked it. I thought it was funny. And I guess I understood it as a tale of the club kids being clever, outmaneuvering the tax people a bit. Here in Berlin, it settled on me differently. The conversation with Philip happened late in the afternoon.

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4055.467 - 4077.054 PJ Vogt

That night, I had really my first sublime Berlin dance floor experience. This tiny spot, no bouncer, it's called Sussfahrgestern, suite was yesterday. I don't record here. I don't record in any club. I'm trying to follow the rules of this place that's so dead set against the casual surveillance we're all used to at home. But it's dingy and beautiful here.

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4077.474 - 4094.151 PJ Vogt

The dance floor, like a living room from Alice in Wonderland, maybe? Someone stapled a Persian rug to the ceiling. The floor is crowded. People really of all ages. For some reason, the room has an absurd amount of couches, but the dancers just clear all the furniture. I'm told that's how it happens every week.

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4095.578 - 4116.354 PJ Vogt

As I watch the DJ and the people around the DJ, I find myself thinking about Philip and the court case and about what's happening in this room. I think about Sven von Thulen, that hardcore kid turned techno DJ. Sven had told me at one point part of why he loved techno was the same reason he loved punk, that it was a genre that just did not care for rock stars.

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4117.375 - 4142.403 PJ Vogt

In the early days, in particular, he said the people dancing at the party were the main attraction. The DJ conducted them, but the DJ also kind of disappeared. It wasn't like a concert where hundreds or thousands of people stare at one person in a kind of secular worship. This was something older, weirder, people losing themselves, becoming a mass. It's happening in this room tonight.

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4143.104 - 4167.699 PJ Vogt

And I think maybe this is what the club kids were trying to say to those tax authorities, that this was worth defending, valuable, or at least cultural. Saturday night comes, the beginning of Klubnacht at Berghain. Instead of going there and braving the bouncers, staring down Sven, I go with my friends to a different Berlin club, this one sitting on the banks of the river Spree.

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4168.48 - 4192.921 PJ Vogt

The bouncer there, a stylish woman, asks our group if we speak German. The German speakers in our party try to cover, saying we all do. Her eyes fix directly on my cow-like, uncomprehending American gaze, and she asks in English, do you speak German? No, I confess. She starts laughing. Why would you lie to me? She lets us all in. Sunday morning, one final dance party.

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4193.661 - 4214.937 PJ Vogt

We show up at an old public German swimming area, this small lake outside of the city. In a shack on the water, all the windows have been covered in colored gels, so when the morning light comes in, it feels like you're inside a cathedral instead of a lean-to. It's so crushingly beautiful, so criminally Instagrammable, one of my American friends can't resist. He takes out his phone.

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4215.257 - 4238.674 PJ Vogt

Immediately, a German partygoer is on top of him, reacting the way someone would react if he took out an actual weapon in an American nightclub. Stay in the moment, she yells, or something to that effect. It's a little aggressive, but the phone is ultimately holstered. Sunday afternoon, a few hours later, a text arrives. Do I want to see Berghain? A person I'd met this week.

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4239.395 - 4258.067 PJ Vogt

Their friend is DJing today, so they're going to support them. They can take me along, if my clothes aren't too bad. I'll still have to pass a bouncer, but I'll have a real Berliner offering me a halo. 3 p.m., the sun is shining at morning church-level strength. The line of petitioners outside Berghain is as long as ever.

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4259.168 - 4280.811 PJ Vogt

The line where Chris and Dan had found themselves, snakes from the entrance of the club, maybe 100 yards back. At the front, an open door guarded by two men. Inside, through the black rectangle of the door, Sven, watching a series of security camera monitors, presumably directing decisions from inside. I meet my Berliner friend, and we stand near the famous line.

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4281.391 - 4308.088 PJ Vogt

For a very, very long time, we just watched the line. It feels tense and electric to be here observing it, like I'm breaking a rule. And maybe I am. A bouncer from the door asks me, is everything okay? But I tell him, I'm just watching. And he nods. That's fine. Like everything in life, the line is not what I expect it to be. A woman in her 50s dressed for the airport? She's waved in.

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4309.229 - 4332.251 PJ Vogt

A Middle Eastern guy in his 30s, alone, wearing a functional hiker's backpack? He's also in. Two young Eurotrash gentlemen dressed for Ibiza? They get the not tonight. Most people today, though, are getting waved in. The ones who don't, they walk away looking like they somehow knew before they heard the words. The whole thing, it feels like watching something that's already happened, happen.

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4332.832 - 4355.201 PJ Vogt

Like the divorce papers or the marriage license that shows up in the mail a year later. Eventually, my friend takes me to the shorter line that they usually wait in, the list for regulars. It's much faster than the main one. I wait as people shuffle to the front for the bouncer's inspection. It's my turn now. I stand in front of a bouncer, not Sven, one of his underdoormen.

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4445.067 - 4458.858 PJ Vogt

Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey and Jigsaw Productions. It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Shruthi Pinamaneni. And it's produced by Garrett Graham and Noah John. Fact-checking this week by Claire Hyman. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Armin Bizarrian.

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4459.619 - 4476.918 PJ Vogt

If you enjoyed this story, or if any of our stories this season made you laugh, or think, or gave you something to talk about, please consider supporting our show. You can do it at searchengine.show. It'll help us plan our second season, which we are already at work on. Our executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Reese-Dennis.

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4477.579 - 4496.392 PJ Vogt

Thank you to everyone in the Kudelmudel and to Laura Salm and Kel Fasane. Thanks also to the labels, Ostkut Ton and Trezor, for letting us dip into their catalogs. We've distilled our reading and homework into a single techno playlist. I will link to that playlist in my newsletter, which you can also sign up for at searchengine.show.

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4497.473 - 4519.685 PJ Vogt

Thanks to the team at Jigsaw, Alex Gibney, Rich Perrello, and John Schmidt. And to the team at Odyssey, J.D. Crowley, Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchison, Matt Casey, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Shuff. Our agent is Oren Rosenbaum at UTA. Follow and listen to Search Engine for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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4520.305 - 4521.886 PJ Vogt

Thanks for listening. See you in two weeks.

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4565.046 - 4586.017 Advertisement voice

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4586.037 - 4594.292 Advertisement voice

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