Oprah Winfrey
Appearances
Behind the Bastards
Bonus: The Bastards of Oprah
Susan, when you were there, did he, I heard that he actually invites medical doctors from around the world to come up and witness him do these things. Is that correct?
Behind the Bastards
Bonus: The Bastards of Oprah
Dr. Jeffrey Rediger traveled to Brazil also to see John of God's work firsthand. Explain, if you can, the medical risks of surgery without anesthesia or proper sterilization. It doesn't look like he's, like, sterilizing the knife or the probe.
Behind the Bastards
Bonus: The Bastards of Oprah
So have people followed up with these people who've gone through these procedures? Maybe infections came later.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
This episode of the Oprah Podcast is presented by Lilly Direct, your online healthcare resource. Hello to you, dear podcast listener and YouTube watcher. I know your time is valuable, so I am thanking you all for taking the time to be with me here. My guest today is a long, long, long time friend, Maria Shriver.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
And you were one of those daughters like Gail. Right. You were my two best friends. I didn't have anything close to that kind of relationship with my mother. And both of you talk to your mothers every day, multiple times a day. And I could never understand what the hell are y'all talking about?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Explain the double padded door and the get out, get out. Your mother actually saying, go away, get out.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
You write this about feeling terrified in your own home. You say everyone lives behind closed doors. I stand here, frozen in the darkness, terrified. My brothers can't help. They aren't yet men. As the sun begins to break through, I return to my room down the hall. I shut my door. Daylight is coming. One more night is over. I made it through again. What was it that was terrifying you?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Maria is an Emmy and Peabody Award-winning journalist and former national news anchor. She served four years as First Lady of California. She's the creator of the award-winning digital publication, The Sunday Paper, which I love to read every week. Maria is the best-selling author of many books and one of the world's leading advocates for women's health and Alzheimer's research.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
And out to
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Nobody talked about what it was and what had happened.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
But where was your father in all of this? So they slept in separate bedrooms, as a lot of people do. Mm-hmm. and your mother was at the end of the hall, did he know that you were and your brothers were trying to get in? Did he know?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
And Hoffman is the Hoffman Institute.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Is that where I See You Now came from, the poem that you write about your father?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
And now you write.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
And now she is a loving and doting grandmother to her daughter Catherine's children with actor Chris Pratt, Lila, Eloise, and Ford. In this book, you have opened, literally opened your soul and allowed all of us who have any feelings of loss or grief or not being enough or not being able to show up for ourselves. You have led us to the open field. And bless you for that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
You definitely did. As I was going to say, no surprise then that you would fall in love with somebody who was the exact opposite of how you saw your father. So when you met Arnold Schwarzenegger... You were just 21 and he was 30 years old. And when you first met, your family just thought it was just a passing phase. Yes. And you thought, I'm going to show them.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
And when Arnold decided that he wanted to run for governor, I remember those days you were sharply opposed to the idea. And one of the things that I remember us having this conversation at the time about you can run and run and run. and eventually it catches up with you because this is the exact opposite life that you had been seeking for yourself.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
And I didn't even realize... Because your mother had said, as I recall at the time, your mother was saying, if you oppose it and he ends up not doing it, he will resent you forever. Forever, yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
I remember you shared with me once, was it your... Uncle Teddy, or was it your father who had run for office and how all the people around and the campaign and it's hundreds of people. And then when you lose, you go home and there's, it's empty.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Especially when you understood your father's value.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
This is the man who created the Peace Corps. Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
You say, too, that you have to admit that the thing that you had not wanted turned out to be one of the best things for you because being first lady of California allowed you an opportunity to reach and have a voice that could help change in a way that you hadn't before. Right.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
And I am so proud of you for that. And it's all in the form of poems. And you go places I thought you would never go. I want to say I really, really, really am just honored that you have become... and evolved into the woman that you are. And I'm so honored to have you as my friend.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
So let's talk about the other breaking open for you, breaking open moment, was the divorce, unquestionably. Your husband had a sexual relationship with somebody who was working inside your home, and a child resulted from that relationship. You were betrayed, and you write poems here about your feelings about that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
And in the introduction, you write, you say, "'As I sat on my hotel room floor in the dark,' terrified and alone with tears streaming down my face I thought to myself Maria this doesn't have to be the end of you it can't be the end of you make it a new beginning of you and you write that it took you many years to get to that point to recover.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
And that's why I couldn't believe that you're putting this all in writing because I know this to be true. You literally tried every method of healing anybody has ever heard of.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Yeah, you did.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
I remember the night that the story about Arnold's betrayal was going to go public. You had known for a long time, but the night that it was going to go public was the night that I was ending the Oprah show in 2011.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
have never seen a friend like you because on the night that you knew that that was going to be going public you came and you showed up for me you showed up for me and I don't know how you did that because I would you weren't even in your right mind were you even present in your body Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
I remember seeing you in the bathroom that morning because you were... We were working on Evening Magazine. Yeah. And you'd been up and I said, whoa, what are you doing here? And you said, I've been up all night and you're throwing water on your face.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Thank you. Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
We would sit there and have those crab cakes.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Actually, Maria and I have been friends as long as Gail and I have been friends, and we all met in the same place at WJZ-TV in Baltimore. Correct. We met when we were both in our early 20s, so I've known you now for, we've been friends for 49 years.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Well, you have done such a beautiful job raising your children. I mean, I know you have all of these different roles, but your primary role, even as your friend, as I see, has been that you have been the mother that raised generous and kind children, which is a very hard thing to do in today's world.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
There's no reason why they shouldn't.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Lessons. What is the thing that your mother gave to you that you feel that you're passing on to your children?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
And you write a poem about the fact that, it was a poem and a tribute, the fact that you were able to explore and touch your vulnerability and femininity in a way that she was not allowed or certainly didn't feel that she could.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
And for 10 years, your dad struggled with Alzheimer's. I just so appreciate the poem that you did for over a decade when you watched him descend into...
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
So when you're with a person who I've never had been, talk to anybody who I knew as well as I do you about a family member going through it. When they first start to not to know who you are, do you feel that they are still who they are?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
You write, though, in I Am Maria that you sometimes still struggle to be truly at peace with yourself.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Did writing I Am Maria bring you a sense of peace?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
You don't?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Maria and I are strength training together at the gym.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Yeah, remember that night you were talking about a friend who was going to take a vacation with themselves? And your father was like, who ever heard of such a thing?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Do you think you understand now? I ask this question often on this podcast. Do you think you understand now, have a greater understanding now of what it means to have a well-lived life?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Because you were a part of the family once. was considered American royalty. I mean, literally. I mean, you were born at a time when Camelot was becoming Camelot, right?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Yeah, I was just going to say, you end with the piece titled The Open Field, and you say, I'll meet you there. Yeah. And what I believe, can you hand me the book, please? What I believe is that all of these beautiful... The stories you tell through your poetry are going to open up the hearts of other people to see themselves. Yeah, I hope so.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
The fact that you have written a book of poetry, Maria. Yeah, I know. Could you believe it? This is something you have never done. I thank you. And I know that so many people are going to find comfort. And I know you would appreciate this because you and I both love Mary Oliver.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
And I have Mary Oliver's poems.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Her book, Devotion. Oh, yes. The Devotion book by my bedside. And now this will go by my bedside. I am Maria.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Maria, you've got Americans reading poetry. That is a very big deal. That's a big deal. That's a big deal. Maria's book is called I Am Maria, My Reflections and Poems on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home. It's available April 1st anywhere you buy books. And Maria reads the audio version. I thank you to Lily Direct for presenting today's episode.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
And I want to personally thank you, all our dear listeners, for joining us here. Talk to you next week. I am Maria. Go well, everybody. You can subscribe to The Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Right. And you say early in the book, I never imagined that writing poetry...
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
helped me embark on a journey deep into myself and i never imagined that everything i sought for that you were thinking that you were looking for right was within you all along well that's every spiritual teaching we've ever heard well i know but i think i was raised in a family that taught you like you go out you change the world and that's the brass ring there was no uh
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
And I knew that Maria was writing a book, and I asked her to send me her new book, I Am Maria, My Reflections and Poems on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home. I have to tell you all and to tell you that I read this on a rainy day, sitting in my window seat, and I wept. I wept because I've known you all these years.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Yes, because at your dinner table, people literally had to come talking about what you did today and how is that going to impact the world. Oh, big time. How are you going to be of service? Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Hiding in the bathroom because it's too much pressure. Sure.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
You say it was the heartbreak of your divorce that cracked you open to reveal some of your biggest trauma. And that turned out to be actually your childhood. How did your divorce lead you back to your childhood?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
And how did poetry become a part of it, Maria?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
So let's start with your mother, Eunice Kennedy Shriver, who's one of the most formidable writers.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
powerful i mean i remember years ago saying if she ran for president i would do whatever i could to help her right and i think she if she were born at another time she would have been president so eunice kennedy shriver her brothers uh were are your uncles right and were president john f kennedy and senator robert kennedy and eunice was as you say in the book the most impactful person in your entire life and in the book you describe your household as being
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
like a chaotic pressure cooker. Give us a picture of that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Maria Shriver has lived an extraordinary life, most of it in the public eye. She was born into American political royalty. Her father, Sergeant Shriver, was an American diplomat and was once a candidate for vice president of the United States. Her mother was Eunice Kennedy Shriver. She was the sister of President John F. Kennedy and Senator Robert F. Kennedy.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
I remember the first time I went to your house. There are all these letters in the bathroom from like all the world leaders you've ever read about in history. You're like 23, right? And you're 24.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
And yet when tragic things would happen, I remember having this conversation with you 20 years later because I still remember November 22nd, 1963, like it was yesterday. It's probably in your body. Yes, it's in my body because I was nine years old walking home from school in the rain by myself and President Kennedy had been shot. And I remember having a conversation with you and you said,
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
We never discussed it at our house. No. And I could not believe that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
So the president of the United States, her brother is shot and there's never a conversation about that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
And then four years later, your uncle is shot and there's never a conversation about that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
That's why this book, I Am Maria, is so miraculous, actually, because you came from an environment of what happened to you. Nobody discussed feelings. Nobody talked about really what were tragic events in the household. You just kept going and kept doing and let's show what we can do to serve the world. And yet you've now offered us your soul.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Coming up, Maria Shriver explains why her mother Eunice had double padded doors to get into her bedroom, a place Maria was almost never allowed. Plus, she reveals what happened the moment she found out her marriage to Arnold Schwarzenegger was over. I know many of you are managing chronic conditions like migraines or diabetes or obesity. Well, I want to tell you about Lilly Direct.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
It's a patient care resource designed to support you during those steps when you need it most. has options to help connect patients to independent providers and wellness education and information. Lilly Direct can help you get the guidance and expertise you need when you need it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Plus, their online pharmacy solution, powered by licensed pharmacies, delivers your medicines directly to your door if prescribed by a health care provider. That's key. You can visit LillyDirect.com today and take the first step towards a healthier, more balanced life. Thank you for listening to my conversation on the Oprah podcast with my dear friend Maria Shriver.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
I've known her for nearly 50 years. We're talking about her new book of poetry titled I Am Maria, where she opens up about the highs and the lows of her extraordinary life. I want to begin with some of your beautiful poems. So in one stanza of a poem titled The Child Within, I think is that the first one? Yes. I'm going to read it. Okay. You read it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
The child within, what are you afraid of, says the voice of the adult, full of judgment and scorn. I realize that's my mother talking to me. I know she can't abide fear or weakness. She can't handle neediness. She can't comfort the child in me. Don't come in my room, says my mother. Stay out of my room. Get out. Go away. Get out. Go away. So I do. That's my mother's voice.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Eunice was the founder of the Special Olympics. Maria grew up the only girl in her family with four brothers. In 1986, Maria married the world-famous actor Arnold Schwarzenegger, who later became governor of California. Together, they have four children, Catherine, Christina, Patrick, and Christopher. They divorced in 2021.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home
Stern, scary, terrifying. The child in me is anxious and scared. I wonder about the child in her. Is that child anxious and scared? Nobody saw her. Nobody sees me.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Hello, and thank you for listening to the Oprah podcast. Hello to you watching on YouTube. We are diving into today, healing relationships with our loved ones and the one that matters the most, our relationship with ourselves. It's the ultimate. I want you to welcome with me Dr. Tama Bryant. Can we just speak a minute about what betrayal does to the spirit?
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Yeah. I could see that hit you and it landed. Is that you realize in that moment that Dr. Tamar was talking that you are grieving the idea that you had of him because who he really was, who he really is, is the guy who betrayed you.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Avery, the fact that he cheated on you with those eyes that match your sweater, I don't even know what to say.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Boy, bye. Okay. That is the truth. Thank you so much, Avery. Thank you. Thank you. Have a great rest of your day. I love the fact that you say it matters of the heart that you have a whole chapter, actually, that experiencing infidelity, which, you know, Avery's been going through and grieving this past two years is really a form of loss. and grief and trauma. That's right.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
It's not just infidelity. Yeah. It's a major thing to be betrayed.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
said on a previous podcast to let them go. And you start the book with this. I love this so much. I come to this work as your facilitator, you say. Someone who has experienced living with a full heart, living a busy life with a neglected heart, going through the deep sea diving of living with a broken heart and tenderly and compassionately healing my heart. Why did you need to
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
And the level of betrayal sometimes is so profound that you're just like... Girl, please.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
That's your triumph. Yes, yes. And I really, really, really, it resonated with me and I'm sure a lot of you, too, listening to us, what you said to Avery about you are grieving the man you wanted him to be.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
And I think for Avery and for anybody else who's going through this, that to get the truth of it helps the healing of your own heart. Yeah. Yeah. She's going to come through it and going to be stronger and better for whoever shows up next. So Stevie is joining us. Stevie's a wife and mother to a toddler. Hi, Stevie. Hi, Stevie. I heard that you wanted to deepen female relationships in your life.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
heal your own heart. First of all, I want to say thank you, Oprah, for having me.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Wow. Preach this evening. Whoa. The fact that she is questioning it, it's just like you said to Avery before, the fact that you're now thinking about, now maybe I'm ready to be interested in somebody else, means the healing has taken place. Yes. So the fact that you are in this space, isn't that a wow, aha for you?
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
The fact that you're in the space of asking the question means that you are spiritually, emotionally, psychologically getting yourself ready for this season that is yours to come.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Yeah, I'm really excited for you. I'm excited for you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Stevie. I could see that that message from Dr. Tama just blessed you right now. And all of us who were able to witness it feel the blessing.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Yeah, go with it. Go with it. Thank you, Stevie. Thank you. Coming up, Dr. Tama explains why so many of us can get caught up in the distractions in our daily lives, like taking care of kids or building careers or focusing on life's challenges instead of taking care of ourselves and our wellness. Sometimes hard to do, I gotta say. I know so many of us do that, don't we? We'll talk about that next.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
We're learning how to heal our relationships with others and ourselves. Author Dr. Tama Bryant is here and she is just full of wisdom on this episode of the Oprah podcast. We have you did that thing right there. That was that was so excellent. Thank you. We have Nastasha joining us from Chicago. Hey, welcome. Hi. How's Chicago? Where are you?
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
I know where that is. And I hear after 15 years of nursing and caring for others that you have now come to a revelation about yourself and the matters of your heart. Tell us what that is. What happened?
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
And it's so interesting you saying that because I noticed this with a lot of my daughter girls who come to school from South Africa to go to college here. Yeah. where achievement becomes the thing. Yes. Achievement becomes their identity. Achievement.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
I had one of my daughter girls who's now a doctor at UPenn, but went to Spelman, graduated summa cum laude, got one B and fell apart over one B because the identity was I'm a straight A student. Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
That's right. And so what I have found with a number of my girls is that because so much emphasis has been put on the academics and achieving and being success and you're the first in your family and all of that, they're not as good with the relationships because all the energy goes into making yourself the successful person.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. High five yourself. Yeah. I know that hit a nerve right there.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
I think what happened here was an opportunity to see yourself from the point of view of what's really been happening with yourself. I really appreciate it when you said you're not bored. You're just not used to ease. Yes. And you think being still means I'm bored because I have to prove, I have to prove, I have to do, I have to show, I have to, you know. Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Can I just stop everybody right now? Because I have known you since you were a little girl. That's right. Because Bethel AME Church, y'all, in Baltimore. was the center of our, not just the city, but the spiritual culture for the city. That's right. And when I first moved from my father's house in Nashville and moved to Baltimore, the first thing he said to me was, find yourself a church home.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
I'm so glad this is on tape because you're getting so many ahas so quickly that you're not even going to remember everything she said. I can see you're like, okay, what did she just say? What did she? Okay. It's all on tape, so you don't have to write it down. But I can see that it's hitting you. You're like, huh? Huh? Huh? As I said, we got you here. We got you. We got you.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Well, I want to say you already are worthy. You already are worthy. Already. But that you can be open to accept your worthiness. Yes. That's what you want.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
You want to be open to accept your worthiness because you have refused to see your value and your worthiness. And all of this happened in one Zoom call. This is an amazing thing. This is what happened to you today, Nastasia. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Bless you. Lots to think about. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. Yeah, I think that I think the reason why it's so interesting talking to Nastasha is that she represents so many people in the world.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
I think it's also so important, the question that you asked her, what is the story that you told yourself about being a teen mother? Because she's still carrying that. That's right. And still trying to prove to those women who were in the room when she was picking up her child, I'm good enough, I'm worthy enough, I'm valuable enough, all of that.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Was it hard for you to accept that about yourself?
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
And Bethel became my church home. And I used to sit in, I used to come to 8 o'clock service. That's right. Because you couldn't get in at 11 o'clock service. I used to drive all the way from Columbia, Maryland. And I would be mesmerized by your father and your mother. Yeah. Yes. And your mother. Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Yes. Yeah. That's what she's dealing with, too. That's right. Well, Portia's joining us. She's one of nine children, and I hear you shoulder the burden of being the most successful member of your family. Tell us what's going on.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Okay, so we're not talking about little kids here.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
We're talking about grown women. I wanted to establish that, yes.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
So you decide. Stop right there. Stop right there. That nothing will ever be enough if they see you as their resource, because it will it will always be what else you got, what else you got, what else can you do, what else you got. And that's what you're feeling and that's what you're resentful and angry about. But. your past relationships with them has set this expectation.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
And so with Dr. Taylor, I'm speaking from experience. I'm a member of this choir, okay? And so you have got to establish that those days are gone. Yes, this is what I used to do. And now this is what I'm willing to do. It is a decision on your part. And people are going to be mad. They're going to be mad. You're not going to get through it without somebody being mad.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
But you're doing this to save yourself and ultimately to save the relationships that are meant to last.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Well, you know what? I suffered from this for so long. I literally have journals filled with the question of what do I owe? What do I owe? And when is it enough? What do I owe? And when is it enough? And can you help her answer that question?
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Did I ever tell you this? That I became a tither at Bethel. It became my stabilizing force, being a 22-year-old girl moving to a city and not knowing anybody. That was not just my church home. It became my home, my community, my people. Wow. It was everything for me.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Do you believe you have the courage now, the courage for the holiness of no?
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Thank you so much. Thank you, Porsche. When we come back, I'll ask Dr. Tama what it means to live a meaningful life. I want you to think about that question, too. That's next.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Welcome back. I thank you for your company here on the Oprah Podcast. Dr. Tama is about to explain how to be intentional when it comes to healing the relationships in our lives. So you write about the co-creating joy. You say it's an inside job for an individual and a collective job for relationships. It is. Co-create joy with the people you love.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Well, this is the thing. You're a therapist. You're a professor. Yes. You're a minister because you have preached here today. Yeah. How do you describe a life well-lived, a well-lived existence? And what are the guideposts? What does a meaningful life look like when you're operating for matters of the heart? Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Ooh, I'm going to end on that. You are fed even as you pour.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Thank you, Dr. Tamer Bryant for what feels like sacred wisdom. Well, you come at it naturally. Okay. And I thank you to all of my guests today, Natasha and Stevie and Avery and Porsche, um, I so appreciate each of you bringing your whole heart to the conversation about matters of the heart. Dr. Tama's book is called Matters of the Heart, Healing Your Relationship with Yourself and Those You Love.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
And it's available anywhere you buy books. And Dr. Tama reads the audio version herself. Yes. So it's like having an ongoing podcast with you. And those of you who want to, subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. And don't miss a week. Go well, everybody. Thank you. Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
You can subscribe to The Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
It's different. Yes. It's different. Yeah. But it's there and it's real. She's there. Yeah. So that feels good. In chapter one of Matters of the Heart, you reinforce for us the importance of self-compassion and you define it this way.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
To be compassionate towards yourself means, I love this, you've created space for the fullness of your complex identity and your complicated life, including your fractured heart. The aim is to be able to look at yourself with honesty and appreciation. And the reason why it stopped me in my tracks because I thought, wow, so many people are walking around with fractured hearts.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
And the essence of matters of the heart, may I share with you all, is that you got to take care of yourself first. You got to practice compassion for yourself first before you can begin to give it to other people. And what is the best way for people to practice self-compassion, Dr. Tama?
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Let the church say amen. A graduate of Duke University, Dr. Tama Bryant, who goes by Dr. Tama, is a clinical psychologist, a professor of psychology at Pepperdine University, and an ordained minister. Dr. Tama is the author of three books and is the host of the popular The Homecoming podcast, which raises awareness about mental health.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
And then you talk about this overextending yourself results in depletion. I mean, we have seen that over and over and over again, particularly in our community where women have given and given and given and there is nothing left. Nothing. And then don't understand why they are depleted. But you're saying that is the absolute counter opposite of having self-compassion.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
But how do you this is the thing I was reading that I was thinking about all the people who were saying easy for you to say, Oprah, easy for you to say, Dr. Tama, give yourself self-compassion when you are the number one breadwinner, when you are the one taking care of everybody and there's nobody there to take care of you. Where is there room for self-compassion? Right.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
So what should you be pouring? Should you be pouring prayers? Should be pouring, preparing, you know, pouring in silence? What should you be pouring in? Yeah.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Because I think so many and we're speaking to all of you who are just overwhelmed. You're overwhelmed and depleted. Yes. Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
I know. I heard another scientist say the sickness often is your body's way of saying, time out, I'm done. I've done. I don't have anything else to give.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Your latest book is called Matters of the Heart, which I was even so touched by the title. Matters of the Heart, Healing Your Relationship with Yourself and Those You Love. And let me say to all of you who are watching or listening, this book is a treasure. It's a treasure trove of wisdom for any phase of your life. And we have you covered on this episode.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
I think one of the things that I really appreciate about Matters of the Heart is that it's not like flipping a switch and all of a sudden you're going to do everything. It's about taking small steps to begin to see yourself differently so that you can then actually know and acknowledge what it is you need to begin to take care of yourself. Because I think so many people...
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
I'm so glad you joined me for this episode of the Oprah podcast. When we come back, Dr. Tama and I talk about how to heal after a betrayal. I think that's an issue so many people can relate to. That's coming up after the break. Thank you for joining us on the Oprah podcast. I am so happy you're here. And I'm back with relationship expert, Dr. Tama Bryant, author of Matters of the Heart.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
And we're about to hear some very personal stories from viewers and listeners who say they are struggling on their path to healing. So let's get to it. I'm so happy that there's so many people here who are interested in the healing process because we heard a lot of people who are in need of improving themselves. Some who are joining us on Zoom today. Avery is one of those people.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Avery, I hear you're 27. You recently moved to Colorado for a fresh start after experiencing a betrayal, the kind we keep hearing about more and more about. Betrayal leaves you devastated, doesn't it, Dr. Tamer? It's heartbreaking. Can we just speak a minute about what betrayal does to the spirit?
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
You're on the up and up. Okay. What did you want to ask Dr. Tama?
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Phones have revealed a lot of this world. A lot of people got messed up with the phones. Go ahead.
The Oprah Podcast
You’re WORTHY of the Life You Want
Whatever you're going through, Dr. Tama talks about how to set better boundaries, forgiving without receiving an apology. Yes. I'm going to say that again. Forgiving without receiving an apology. Don't we all want to know how to do that? Investing deeper in your current relationships and releasing those in your life who just are not healthy for you to let them, as Mel Robba
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Because you love sentences. I love sentences.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
When you finished that sentence, you just went, yeah. I'm going to have a matcha latte.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
An absolute masterpiece, a wonder of character and craft. Beautiful, brilliant. One of the most anticipated books of 2025. That's just some of the literary praise for Eric Buchner's novel, Dream State. It's set among the serene lakes and picturesque mountains of Montana, which is its own dream state. This is a story about Cece, who's arrived alone in town one month early to plan her wedding.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
But not being able to say it. But if you said that, they'd go, ooh.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
And that's what you mean by the rhythm?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Yeah. I don't know that, but okay.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Yeah, okay. Okay. So that's what you meant by it's a song without words, okay? An instrumental you knew by heart, you learned the rhythm together, and you practiced it all the time, because that's what guys do. They're doing that all the time for days and months and years. And it was a swing of your silences, the karaoke track behind the gibberish you sang. Explain that to me.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
The karaoke track behind the gibberish you sang.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Well, that's why this is a brilliant sentence. Really good sentence, sir.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Thanks for listening. We'll be right back with more of my conversation.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Welcome back to more of my conversation.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
I think the way that you explore the mysteries of marriage will resonate with a lot of people. Did you all think, married people in here? A lot of married people? Okay. Resonated, right? I think this is such an astonishing section on page 289. You say, they'd been married 24 years to the day, and yet these spaces still widened between them. Ones they didn't have the energy to cross.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Then out of the blue, on their anniversary no less, he discovered he couldn't speak to her properly, or really at all. He might as well have married a plant. It was heartbreaking. It broke Garrett's heart. Sometimes marriage felt like a dazzling present.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
It's also about her fiancé, Charlie, who's a doctor back in Los Angeles, and his best friend Garrett, who just happens to be the officiant for their wedding. When the tumultuous wedding day arrives, Cece makes a shocking choice that affects everybody in her life. That's when Dream State becomes a story about a love triangle spanning 50 years.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
They didn't want to soil or scratch, didn't have the courage to actually use, and so they locked it up in the garage where neither of them could touch it. Okay. Have you been able to crack the code, the secret to marriage?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Okay, Heather, where are you? Okay. Okay.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
He is off of that sofa after three months. And what did it dream state? Honey, I was reading this book, and now you can come off the sofa. I feel better. Yeah. Really? That really was it?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Well, that is good for a novel to do that.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
This is a story of opportunity, grief, commitment, family... marriage, longing, regrets, parenthood, connection, human nature, friendship, and life. I sat down at Starbucks in New York City with the author and a cafe full of readers. Married people in here? A lot of married people? Resonated, right? The audience told us why they connected so deeply to these beautifully written characters.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
And she's a writer, too, and you both love sentences. So that makes that loving sentences.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Sahai is here, and she has a question.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
You're running. You don't have your computer or a pen. So you're running and you've got to get back and put that down, right?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
This is one of my other favorite quotes in the book. On page 278, life was a long, incompetent search to get back to a feeling you had when you were six. Didn't we all love that? How many of you underlined that or noted that? And the reason I liked it so much is because you didn't say four. You didn't say five or eight or ten. You said six. And everybody, don't we all remember six?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Hello? Hello, is this Eric? Yes, it is. Eric, hi, it's Oprah Winfrey. Oh my God. Yeah. Oh my God.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
I mean, because it's like first grade. It's you're feeling yourself. You got your patent leather shoes on for Easter. I mean, where did this line come from?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Erica, this was one of your favorites too, right?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Yeah. And so you remember you were six. Were you writing then? Did you love sentences at six?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
And I want my picture on the back. Yeah, that's really great. You say this about parenting, what a mystery your own children were. You gave them everything and it was like tossing a coin into a well. I think so many parents relate to that feeling. Does this phrase come from your experience as a father?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
That's why Eric Buchner's Dream State is my 111th Oprah's Book Club selection. So we don't want to give away the plot, but my hope is that people buy and read the book Dream State and then come spend some time with us on this podcast to hear how you wrote this piece of art it really is. But for now, I want you to set up for us the characters and the plot. What's the story?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Thanks for listening. We'll be right back. Welcome back to more of my conversation. Wonderful. Okay, Julia, where are you?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
And as one of the main characters, Garrett, nears the end of his life, he shares this regret that he should have enjoyed himself more. His only youth. Wow. Nobody wants to be Garrett in that moment. I should have enjoyed myself more. His only youth. Do you have those same regrets or know somebody who has those regrets?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
You're lifing. Yeah. Enjoying life. Enjoying life. Enjoying life. Trying to. Thank you. Enjoying lifing with us here in the Starbucks cafe. Thank you. That's why you're out having coffee with us today. So where did that line come from?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Yeah. What do you all think? That she would have had regret had she married Charlie? Yes. Why do you say so?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
And first of all, how did this story come to you?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Yes. Yes. And so she was either going to experience the regret as she or experience the guilt, experience the guilt also. Okay.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Clara Keegan just said this about small things like these, that she's terrible, too. There's the writing, and then there's the titling.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Old Light. All right, I don't even see where that comes from.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
We didn't read the poem, so we're picking up the book. We don't know what you're talking about. Okay.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Yes, I love this sentence on page 371. Maybe marriage was like that. Gradually, you renamed the world and created a new one, one only you could enter. You turned flowers into money, took the lullaby of unexciting days and called it happiness. I just love that sentence. And I know you gave yourself a round of applause when you finished that sentence. The lullaby of exciting days.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Yes, of exciting days. Where did that line come from? I love that. The lullaby of exciting days and called it happiness.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
That's what you did get at. Beautiful sentences. Thank you so much. We're glad you love sentences. Eric Puckner, thank you so much for Dream State. And I know all of us will be thinking about it and talking about it. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. So buy the book, Dream State, grab some friends, head to Starbucks for a matcha latte and dive in.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
And we're so glad that you were able to join us here at Starbucks today, everybody. A big thank you to our wonderful Starbucks partners for supporting us. Thank you all for listening and watching. And we hope you'll all join our community and become friends.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
a part of all of our conversations, subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Bye, everybody. Dream state.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Okay. Well, that's good to know because we know what happens in the story. Yes. But we're not saying. Okay. Our audience has read the book and came ready with questions. Kim, where are you? Okay. There you are.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Well, it's great to have you here. I told you we were going to be in at Starbucks, Books in Conversation. And you know what you said? Oh, will I be a part of that?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
I had it this summer, and I so related. And, like, we all were at the dinner table, then somebody else got it, and somebody else got it. It is the worst possible feeling. I thought I was going to die, and I thought, death is going to be okay.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Just let me go. Just let me go. Yeah, it's really bad.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
That's why I don't know how Charlie stood it.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Anybody here ever had it? Norovirus? No? Oh, okay. You have? Yeah. Yeah. Coming out of both ends. It's terrible. It's not pleasant. Yeah. But I lost six pounds. I was so happy. Small wins. I thought, wow, this is great. Hit the goal. All right.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
The flower girl was throwing up. Oh, boy. And what do people do when that happens?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
So this novel started because of the no world virus at the weddings? Yeah. Wow. Okay.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Okay. And that just came to you. I want to write about a marriage plot that is the wrong marriage.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Hi, everybody. Welcome to Oprah's Book Club, presented by Starbucks. Hello. We're here in the gorgeous New York City, Starbucks, and we are having some interesting books, conversation, and coffee. And we are all readers here. Hello, readers.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Okay. We've been asking this question. If you could have coffee with any of the characters in the book, who would it be?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
How many of you are Cece coffee people?
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
No, you're going to meet at a Starbucks and have the coffee, okay? But you would have coffee with Cece. I would have had coffee with Jasper. Okay? Anybody else? Who would you choose to have coffee with? Yes? Yes? Jasper too? Jasper people. Jasper people. Okay? Garrett people. Okay? Charlie people. No, Charlie. Atlanta people. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Very good. All right.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
So you said that you were drawn to characters who find it difficult to navigate through life because those are the people who you often are drawn to in your own life. And so that was also a part of the writing for this.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
I think that your neighborhood Starbucks is a great place to get together with friends with a copy of my new book club pick and connect over a delicious cup of curated coffee. The pairing for this book is a matcha latte. My 111th book club pick is a real page turner and an emotional roller coaster. Wouldn't you say? It is the novel Dream State by Eric Hockner.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Yeah, I think the scenery, Montana. First of all, Montana is having a moment right now. And I think all of it feels like its own character.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
I think also the desire to be authentic comes through a lot in the book.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
I remember in the beginning, I was struck by that sentence where she was being complimented by all the teachers because she wanted to be a pediatric neurosurgeon and then realize that she just liked the sound of it and liked the way it sounded and the way people treat you when you say, I'm going to be a pediatric neurosurgeon versus... actually what that really means. Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
So there's a lot of play on what it means to be authentic in this book.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
Well, one of the things I think we all appreciated about this book are that the characters are going through so much of what we all have experienced in our own lives. Like, where am I going? And what does this mean? And how am I defining myself? And am I just defining myself? Is this really real to me? You were able to capture that so well.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
And also, I think male friendship, which I'd never thought of this this way before, You say on page 140, male friendship was all about rhythm. It was a kind of song without words, an instrumental you knew by heart. You learned the rhythm together and practiced it all the time for days and months and years, perfecting it by feel.
The Oprah Podcast
Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club
It was the swing of your silences, the karaoke track behind the gibberish you sang. What the hell were you thinking then when you wrote that? How long did it take you to come up with that? First of all, you have the idea, and then you have to form the words to express this idea to us. How long did that take?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
I want you to know this conversation is not intended to offer medical advice. Psychedelics remain illegal in most states, so I encourage you to consult your own healthcare professional before considering any kind of mental health treatment.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
So you were taking psychedelic assistant therapy to help you with whatever was going on with you, and you thought, well, honey, you should try this, right? And what did you think when he first suggested it?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Well, that's how most of us learned what PTSD was. So I remember when I opened my school in South Africa and, you know, the girls were going through all this, what I thought was like, what is happening? Dr. Bruce Perry said to me, I think your girls are suffering from PTSD. And I said the same thing. Well, they haven't been to war. And he goes, poverty is war. Trauma is war.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And so that's the first time I realized it around 2006, 2007. Yeah.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
I thank you for joining me for Oprah's Book Club presented by Starbucks. When we come back, Amy Griffin explains everything you may be wondering about her psychedelic assisted therapy experience, from who was with her to what pills she took and how long it lasted. She'll go into detail of how it all went down. That's next.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Welcome back to Oprah's Book Club presented by Starbucks. I'm so glad you're here with us. I'm with author and investor Amy Griffin, whose book The Tell is my 112th selection. Amy is talking about her use of psychedelic therapy and how it helped her uncover a traumatic experience from her childhood.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
A reminder, this conversation contains discussions about sexual abuse and may be challenging to hear. This is not a subject for young children. Since we'll be discussing psychedelics, I want you to also know this conversation is not intended to offer any kind of medical advice.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Well, the reason why I think the tell is going to have such a profound effect on so many people is because when people live a life like you live, a very elevated, highly exposed to everything possible in the world life, growing up the way you did in Amarillo, riding around with your banana seat bicycle and going to the Tootin' Totem,
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
and having everything look and seem to be perfect, except you didn't win Homecoming Queen. I did not. It's hard to believe that traumatic things happen to you because people think when you have money that you can't have sadness or trauma or difficulties or challenges. So what happened during your first session with the therapist? And what psychedelic did you use?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
I love some truffle, honey. Me too. And you can pick up a bag of Anniversary Blend at your local Starbucks store. Okay, so here is my 112th book club pick. It is called The Tell. The Tell. A memoir by Amy Griffin. Amy Griffin is the founder of the investment firm G9 Ventures. She is a financial visionary supporting female founders of iconic brands like Goop, Bumble, Spanx, and Hello Sunshine.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
At the time, you didn't know you had the secret. You just knew it was something.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
So what did you see in that session? We want to know what happens when you take the pill. I know. Explain it to us. Are you lying down? Are you sitting up? Is somebody talking to you? We don't know what happens. What happens?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Oh, the therapist doesn't say one word.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Okay. So you took- I took the pill. You took the pill.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And that was it. That was the moment. So then did you start talking and telling what you were seeing?
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Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And I'm so grateful for that. It was like you were put back in the room, in the space with the teacher. So when I was reading that, it sounded terrifying because there were so much violence involved. I mean, literally him putting your head in the toilet, literally him doing all kinds of horrible things to you, including, you know, his foot on your back at one time.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
How were you able to process this? You're lying there on the sofa with their eyes covered and you're telling this story. Does it feel like you're back in the space? Does it feel like you're in danger? Or does it feel like you're the observer of this thing?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
In her new memoir, The Tell, Amy confronts her painful past and unravels a secret she buried deep inside for over three decades, ultimately finding peace and freedom by writing her story. This conversation contains discussions about child sexual abuse and may be challenging or upsetting for some people. Listener and viewer discretion is advised. This is not a subject for young children.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Yeah. So you have since talked to trauma therapists who explained to you why you would block this from your memory. And what did they tell you?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
But everything that's ever happened to us is in here, is in here. Everything that's ever happened, we don't remember all the little day-to-day things that happened. So what did she say?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Okay. One of the things that struck me in the book, and I think a lot of women go through this too, this whole idea of perfectionism, right? Having to be right about everything and doing everything right and it's perfect. There's a line that you used, I recall, where you said, I mistook praise for love. You thought getting praised was the same as being loved.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And so when you get the trophy or when you're awarded the... whatever the award is, and that's why not being homecoming queen was so devastating to you because it's a form of praise and you felt like, what did I do wrong?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Yeah. Well, listen, I'm no doctor either, but I've done hundreds of shows now on abuse and have my own, you know, story of being sexually assaulted, raped at nine, and then continued on sexual abuse up until the time that I was 14. And I remember when I first told the story, everyone was like, well, why didn't you tell? Why didn't you tell?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And I didn't tell because I knew it wasn't safe for me to tell. I knew that if I had told, I would have been blamed for it. Somehow it would have turned on me and I would have been held responsible. And in reading your book, The Tell, I thought you were able to suppress it because you were so... This is just my theory. I don't know what the therapist said.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Is that you were able to suppress it because...
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
your life was built around praise and perfection and that nothing that was happening with that teacher fit in with your idea of who you were as a person and so that just couldn't be in your world and somehow you managed to suppress that and the striking thing in the book to me is the moment when your sister there's this party they're having and there's
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
There's one of your old babysitters is on the tape. What was that party? What was that party for?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Okay. The night before the rehearsal dinner for the wedding. And your sister would put together this tape and she's so proud of the tape. And she has one of your old babysitters. And in that tape, do you all remember this moment? The old babysitter talks about Amy always hiding her underwear. Yeah. And I thought, whoa, whoa. And you had a really bad reaction to that in the tape.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And you were upset with your sister and said, you know, what you said to your sister about it. Because during that time, you're hiding your underwear because of all that was going on. So even in that moment where the babysitter says, oh, yeah, Amy always used to hide her underwear, right? Did that, the reason why it upset you was what?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
May I say, well done. The courage it took to put this in writing and to then offer it to the world. You should be very proud of yourself. And I chose this book because I am so proud of you. I'm proud of you for having the courage to speak your truth. And I know that your truth is going to liberate so many people.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Because shame wasn't a part of your story.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And you got that from your parents. And I get that from my parents. You got that from your parents, is what you said.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Yeah. Yeah. What's interesting, too, about that and about how you grew up is that you're a groomer and, you know, everybody gets groomed. I mean, you know, I was doing the actual Oprah show talking to men who molested their daughters before I realized it actually wasn't my fault.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
When one of the men was talking about how he had worked for six months to be able to get close enough to his stepdaughter to rub up against her breasts. and that he had worked on touching her thighs and touching her in playing games. And then one day he was going for the breasts, he said.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And if he got a reaction from her, then he would go to his wife first and say, I don't know why she reacted that way. And the daughter did say, what are you doing? And then he said, I left her alone and I moved on to her sister. So in that conversation, I realized, oh, there was a plan. It wasn't my fault. There was a plan. And your teacher had a plan.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And that day that you had lost the election for, was it student council or student president? And he knew that you were a strong leader. And he said, what did he say to you?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And you start the book by saying, this is a story, you say, of a secret, a secret kept for decades, one I had buried so deep I didn't even know it was there. Many of us carry secrets, things that we were told not to reveal or things we simply couldn't for fear of judgment or reprisal or, worst of all, for fear that if the people we love found out, they'd see us differently.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Well, the truth is he had his eyes on you. He already had his eyes on you. So when he said to you that you're the leader of this school, you're the real leader, that made you feel really validated. And so you go out of your way to prove that you are. So then you start staying later after school and it's just you and him and the... volleyball coach or the gym teacher, whoever it was.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And he sees that. And so as I'm reading this now, having come from the background that I do, he had his eye on you, had targeted you. And believe me, you're not the only one who was targeted. But at this particular time, you were targeted and he was going after you no matter what. And the fact that you come from the background that you come from,
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
he would have believed that you would not have told. And this is what I've learned for myself, and having interviewed, done hundreds of these shows, I think by the time we finished the Oprah show, we'd done over 200 shows on, you know, victims of abuse, is if you don't tell the first time it happens, you're likely not to tell.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Because by the time it happens a second and third time, you think you're complicit. You're somehow... you caused it or it's your fault or you're making it happen. But if you don't tell the very first time, that's been my experience, that it gets harder and harder to tell.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
But let's just say, I recall in the book you say, didn't he tell you that if you told anybody, they wouldn't believe you? Many times. Yeah. And you believed him.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Amy Griffin! Did you see you Chicagoans? Say hello to Amy. Say hello to Amy. Say hello to Amy. Thank you, Chicago. I'm excited for you to be able to share this story with the world. Oprah, when you called, you were in the closet.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Is love. Up next, Amy Griffin and I are about to take some very relatable questions from the audience. We'll hear from a mother who says after reading Amy's book, The Tell, she sat down with her four daughters for a serious talk about sexual violence and grooming. Amy also shares her advice for parents. That's next.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Welcome back to Oprah's Book Club presented by Starbucks. Many parents today may worry about how to talk to their children about the dangers of grooming and sexual violence. That is why I thought it was important to have a conversation with author Amy Griffin, who shares her own experience of sexual abuse when she was a child. in her memoir, The Tell.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Sometimes we keep secrets to survive. And then a moment arrives when the usefulness of the secret expires. Keeping it becomes the thing that hurts us all. We have to tell. So what is the secret you've come to tell?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
We're taking questions from our readers on how to have these honest conversations with children and with loved ones. A quick reminder, this subject is not suitable for young children and may be upsetting for some viewers and listeners. Well, the audience has questions for you. Where's Sarah? Sarah, tell us what happened when you read this book.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
I'm sure your mother, being the loving, kind person that she is, this would devastate your mother. I mean, not that your father wouldn't be too, but I'm sure it almost took your mother out, did it not?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
I have to say, though, that your ability to talk about your family and share your family in a way that allows us to see the connection to you but doesn't expose them in any way is that you did a really good job. That's why I say well done. That's a hard thing to do.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
That's a hard thing to do because everybody gets to tell their own story or should be able to tell their own story, but I felt like we were brought into the family and understood it.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And also, I would say this, that over the years, what I've learned, the word grooming is, you know, obviously a word that's a part of our culture. But I have found in so many cases, and certainly in mine also, that it's more about seduction. And so you are seduced before you know you're seduced. Mm-hmm.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
That's the thing, those of you with young children, and particularly if you think, oh, my child would tell me, it's challenging when you have been seduced and lured, particularly by somebody that you know and you trust. Right. And that's why you need to have the conversation about it's not, you know, in Amy's case, there was a lot of violence involved and, you know, crudeness and horror.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
But in many cases, it isn't. It isn't. It is more of a seduction and the child is lured. And before they know it, they think it's their fault because they're lured. And so you need to have that conversation also. Thank you, Sarah. Casey, you have a question.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
John, can you explain to us the long no, short yes philosophy? Because when I said that, I go, I'm going to remember this. I remember at one point, because I had the same thing, problem that you had. Anybody who's abused has had this issue of boundaries.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Like you don't know how to set a boundary and you spend your lifetime trying to set the boundaries because you're trying to please everybody and make everything OK. So at one point. When I was here in Chicago, I had a little sign on my desk that says, remember what yes feels like. Because there is a feeling you get instantly from a yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
So when I read that your philosophy is long no, short yes, I thought, I love that.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And make us sick. That's why that phrase, you're as sick as your secrets, is absolutely true.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Let me pray on it a minute. I'll get back to you. Yeah, it just feels like, yeah.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Thank you. I think a lot of working moms relate to what you were saying, that you wore your busyness, you said, like a badge of honor. You all relate to that. You wore your busyness. That's what you're talking about too, right? You wore your busyness like a badge of honor. Has that changed for you?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And so the girls, as you said, the girls didn't question, why didn't you tell her? all the other things that so many other people look at, but they were just there for you and saw you as a full person in that moment.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Hmm. Chantel, it's your birthday, and I know you have a question. First of all, let's all say... Happy birthday to you.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
I had to do something recently and Gail goes, go sit in the tub. Okay.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And then she's now telling her daughters and then they're telling their friends. And that is what it means to pass it on.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Amy grew up the oldest of four children in Amarillo, Texas, where her family ran a chain of convenience stores called Tootin' Totem. She describes her childhood in the Texas panhandle as free, but at the same time, ruled by order.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
I think you have reason enough already. I think the fact that she's sitting down with her daughters and having the conversation. And everybody leaving here who has read the book is going to have a conversation with somebody else. You're already doing it. And I thank you so much, as I said in the beginning, for having the courage.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And I just want to second what you just said, that every time you tell the story, you find somebody who is worthy of your trust. who's worthy of your trust. And I know that if we have this many women in a room and the stats are one out of three, there are a lot of us who have stories to tell about what has happened. And you find just one person, as Amy was saying, just one person.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And the more you tell it, the more you release. And the whole goal is freedom for yourself, is liberation. The tell is about liberation. And I wanted to ask you, do you finally feel free?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the gift of liberation, Lainey Griffin. Thank you. The Tell, a memoir, is available wherever books are sold. And I hope this episode inspires all of you who are watching or listening to read The Tell and share it with a loved one. Audience, thank you for your really thoughtful questions. And thanks to our extraordinary partner, Starbucks for supporting us.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
I love the idea of good coffee and good books and good company all coming together at your neighborhood Starbucks cafe. And the pairing this month, as I said, is the anniversary blend. And we hope you all join our community and become a part of all of our conversations on the Oprah podcast.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Subscribe to the show on YouTube and follow us on Spotify or Apple podcasts or wherever you listen or watch us here on YouTube. Go well, everybody. Thank you, Amy. Thank you. I want you to know this conversation is not intended to offer medical advice.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Psychedelics remain illegal in most states, so I encourage you to consult your own health care professional before considering any kind of mental health treatment.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Can you articulate for the people who, everybody here has read the book and they have questions, but there are millions, thank you for being millions, who are watching us who don't know what the secret is. So can you tell them what is the secret that you discovered?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Okay, so you were abused by your middle school teacher for... multiple years, even into high school. But you did not have a memory of it until much later in life. And we'll talk about how that memory came about. And once you discovered that memory of it, you wanted to go after him. Because who wouldn't want to do that? And you were in pursuit of that and realized what?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Amy, this is Oprah calling you about the towel.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Okay. You know, you start the book talking about how you're running. First of all, that you're a great runner. We can see. Not anymore. Not anymore. Excelling in academics and athletics, Amy earned a scholarship to play volleyball at the University of Virginia. After graduation, she moved to New York City, landing a job in marketing for magazines like Ms. and Working Mother.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Before moving on to Sports Illustrated, she continued to be an avid runner and athlete. We learn in the book that you're running, running, running, running, running all the time, and that, you know, you were an athlete and that it was one of the central driving forces in your life.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
You were literally physically running, but also running from one thing to the next all the time, often having multiple injuries. And at one point, the therapist said to you, what is it your body is trying to tell you? So what is it that happened that absolutely stopped you in your tracks?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
You know, it's so interesting because people who know you, friends of yours who say you were not just a runner physically, but that you literally, that they literally were like, why do you have to do everything? You need to just sit down. Why can't you just relax? that you were always the person who was doing all the things all the times.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Well, I'm happy for that. All right, let us begin. You deserve to be validated. Let's begin. Hi, everybody. I'm so glad you joined us for Oprah's Book Club presented by Starbucks. So I'm in my old Chicago neighborhood at a Starbucks cafe. And for almost 30 years, I lived like three blocks up the street. And I'm in such good company here. Chicago is truly my kind of town.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And in your 40s, you describe in the tell how it looked like, certainly to those of us from the outside, that you were living this picture-perfect life. You were married to the love of your life, John, with four healthy children. Amy fell in love and married her husband, John Griffin, the founder of Blue Ridge Capital, in 2003.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Together, they have four children, 20-year-old Jack, 18-year-old Gracie, 15-year-old Gigi, and 12-year-old Julian. They live in New York City. Hello, Don, amongst all these women here. Four healthy children. You had a high-powered career funding female founders. And you should have felt on top of the world. And yet you write, it was like my body knew something that I didn't.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And as the years ticked forward, my body kept telling me to slow down, but you just couldn't. And you say at another point in the book, it looked like I had the perfect life. And yet, and yet, and yet, yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Okay. You're not listening to yourself. Okay. Not only not listening to yourself, this is what's so interesting to me. So you have this picture perfect life and all of your friends think your life is perfect, yet they know that you're the one who's always running around all the time. And one night you were confronted by your two daughters, which I thought was so powerful.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Didn't you love that moment when the daughters say to her, they were young at the time, I think it was Gigi at the time, 11 years old, right? And tell us what happened.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
But she said, Mom, you're really nice.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
But you're not real. She said, Mom, you're nice, but you're not real. And you're not really there. Where are you? Which I would think, as a mother, would that not just pull you up? That would pull you up, right? I wanted to take that out of the book.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
You could never take that out of the book. That's a main key part of the book.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
But also, when your 11-year-old child says that, and she's with Gracie, who was, what, 13 at the time? When your daughters call you in for, come to Jesus meeting about yourself. That has got to stop you in your tracks and make you think, what is going on and what are they seeing or feeling that I'm not? Is that what happened? A hundred percent.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Well, that's pretty powerful. I got to say that's pretty powerful for your daughters to do that. John, when she told you that, what'd you think?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Okay, John, let me ask you this. What Gigi and Gracie brought up to their mom, had you sensed that or felt that too with the running and the running and the running and the what is, yeah, had you sensed that?
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
And you readers are my kind of people. So welcome. Your neighborhood Starbucks store is, I believe, just the perfect place to gather with friends or discuss a good book and enjoy a delicious cup of coffee. And the pairing for our March book club pick is the anniversary blend, they're calling it. It's a seasonal, full-flavored coffee with notes of cedar-y spice and black truffle.
The Oprah Podcast
Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club
Yeah. And around this time, I understand that you had started taking psychedelic-assisted therapy for your own reasons, correct? And you suggested that it may be helpful to her.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
This episode of The Oprah Podcast is presented by Ulta Beauty. The possibilities are beautiful. It is a joy to be with you here on The Oprah Podcast, and I know your time means a lot to you, so I think it's just so special for me that you all are listening or watching on YouTube. Lots of people... Have Valentine's Day on their minds this week.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Well, you got the best expert here to help you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Esther sees beyond the stories we tell ourselves. How did you know that? You don't even know her. And she's here to offer her unflinching truths. Say that again. Foreplay starts. At the end of the previous orgasm. So everybody, thanks for joining us on this podcast. I'm so happy.
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Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
You're one of the people who is speaking the truth to families and people in relationships in a way, I think, that resonates profoundly and is actually changing the way people see themselves in their lives and relationships. So power to you for doing that in the world. Thank you. I try. And may I tell you, I don't know how I discovered these cards.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
I love what you said about where do you want to go? And I saw something in your eyes. Where do you want to go and what do you want to experience in this sexual encounter that it's not just about the act? Did that resonate with you, Christina?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
That's why women are reluctant. Like if we have a conversation about it, we're going to talk about it. It's going to make you want more of it. And I'm just trying to have a conversation about it. That's what you're saying, Christina. Yes. Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
I actually don't even remember how, but I actually ordered these on Amazon for myself. I got them for myself and then I love them so much. I send them out to friends because this is what happens when people come for dinner and Or come over for an evening and not everybody knows everybody.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Because you know cuddling is going to lead you to something else. But a lot of women feel this. A lot of women say this all the time. I just want to cuddle. And you're reluctant to even initiate cuddling because you know it's going to lead to another whole thing.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
You desire her and she desires you. Yes. I hope this has been helpful. Some things to talk about. Think about. Thank you. Best microphones yet. Thank you. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Next up is Jen, a married mom from Philadelphia. Jen wrote to us about what she called her past baggage. How is that impacting you? What did you want to say, Tess?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
What I found is that if you go through the cards and you pull out the cards and you make sure that the sexy cards are not there, children are there. And then I have a thing where everybody pulls a card and then I have them do another card and then another card. We do rounds of people pulling cards. So you have a whole stack of cards. So you don't just get one card. You get to choose from that card.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Wow. I could cry over that. That resonates really powerfully with me. I heard that. Did you hear it, Jen? Absolutely.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
I received it for sure. Oh my God, that was so good.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
The question that you want to answer. And we go around and around. And it is so... Storytelling night. It's storytelling. It becomes storytelling. And it becomes an opportunity for people to express things and say things. I mean, I've learned things about my godchildren that I did not know. And so where should we begin?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
I thought that was really powerful. How did you know that? You don't even know her.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
So you're holding on to that, still protecting yourself. Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
That's how you stay in control. Oh, that resonated with me.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
And now you're the one who brought up the universe. And so the universe has put you in this position so you can do exactly what Esther was just saying. You can lean back into it. You can lean into him and you can allow. I love those two terms that you used for her. Lean and allow.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Jan, thank you so much for sharing your story. Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
And for matching the walls in the house, for wearing the blouse that matches the chair that matches the wall. I mean, really, the decor is perfect. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Erica from Texas has been married for 32 years. She has three adult children, and now she's starting to have some doubts Are you about your marriage? Tell us why.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Which is, I know, based on your podcast, you've been doing that popular podcast for a few years now. It. Yes. Yes. Yes. So, which is just a perfect title. I love it. And so where... It's how I start many sessions, you know.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
exploration for creativity for things that are the opposite of i'm taking care of my mom my three children my husband i've been doing it i'm the only daughter i'm the child it's you know my responsibility my duty and you know what's so interesting when you watch this makes me want to cheer up When she asked you, what was your wish? What happened to your face?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
And what makes me want to tear up is I know nobody's asked you that. Nobody's asked you that. What do you really want?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
I saw it in your eyes, and I know Esther saw it in your eyes. You were like, because you said, me? What? For myself. For myself? Because nobody's asked you that, and you haven't asked you that. You haven't asked you that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Do you have a thought about what that would be? Have you even thought about that?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Yes. And I love this question. I just pulled these for us today. Something I wish I had been told as a child. What would that be for you? Something I wish I'd been told as a child.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
I could see you get that, Erika. I could see you get that. So let's start there.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Yes, I can see that landed. Yes. Yes, it did. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Thank you. Thank you, Erica. Thank you so much. After this break, Esther shares the one thing you can do today to feel more alive in all of your relationships. Don't you want to know what that is? Stay with us. Our friends at Ulta Beauty want to help you honor your bestie in a big way. Share why they're so special in a post, tag your bestie and at Ulta Beauty.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Ulta is going to pay the joy forward with a chance to receive a surprise and delight beauty experience. I so appreciate you taking the time to join us on the Oprah podcast. We're back with more profound truths about love and relationships from Esther Perel. Barbara was married for 20 years to a man she describes as emotionally abusive. Can you tell us briefly what happened? Hi, Barb. Hello.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Was there an affair?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Thank you, Barbara. Thank you. Thank you so much to both of you. Thank you very much. One of your most well-known quotes I like so much is this one, that the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives. Yes. When did you know this to be true?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
And did she ever?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Oh, that was the day where people were so uncomfortable.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
You know, you've counseled so many thousands of people throughout the world and heard their stories and challenges and relationships. And I'm wondering what you have concluded is the basis for a well-lived life.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
And I know that for some people that brings up thoughts of romance and lack of romance. But my guest is renowned, renowned as a relationship therapist, an expert. She studies it. She knows it in her spirit, in her heart, in her brain. Esther Perel says all of our relationships with our family, with our friends, even our neighbors have a real impact on our most intimate relationships.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
That's why I thought the advice that you were giving to Christina and Stefan and to her particularly about her own arousal and eroticism was so poignant because I think for so many people, they think eroticism is only about sex.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Yeah. My answer to that... What would you say? I would say, I wish I had been told that I was loved. Yes. Because I don't... I never, ever heard... I love you or had the feeling of you are loved as a child.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
So not. So not.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
That is why the importance of the erotic is so essential. I love that. I love that you're able to do that for people. I so appreciate that you were able to come here to be a part of the Oprah podcast. Astaire's podcast is called Where Should We Begin? And where should we begin? A game of stories is available on her website, astaireperral.com.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
So thank you to my guests, all of you for asking your thoughtful questions to Erica and Jen and Christina and Stefan and Barbara. Thank you all. A very special thanks to our friends at Ulta Beauty for sponsoring today's episode. Go well, everybody. You can subscribe to The Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Thanks, everybody.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
I know so many people get so much out of your podcast. Why did you decide to do the podcast? And what was your hope and greatest intention for it?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Even if it's not your story, you can see yourself in the other story. I hear that you now think that modern romance is going through some kind of change or makeover. What's going on out there? What's changed?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Oh, into me see.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
That's where we are.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
But when you were saying that, I remember early on in my relationship with Stedman, Maya Angelou, my advisor and friend, a wise woman, was saying, do not, your life is a whole pie. Mm-hmm. Your life is made up of a whole pie, much of what you're just saying about a village. And so do not expect one person to represent everything that the pie is supposed to represent. Totally agree.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
So based upon what you just said, everybody expects your partner now to really be what the realm of the divine used to be in people's lives. Isn't that too much? Yeah.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
So welcome to the Tea House.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Because you don't fulfill all of those things, I'm going to eliminate you from my life because you are not perfect.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
And then that person's not going to be able to do it either. So what is your advice to someone who's listening who may be feeling...
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Esther Perel is a psychotherapist and bestselling author who's been counseling couples for over three decades.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Oh, I love that you can have a thousand friends on social media and no one to feed your cat.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
You end up feeling emptier.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Emptier. And you teach a course on turning conflict into connection. Yeah. And I've always wanted to know, why does it seem that couples fight over and over about the same thing?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
It's not about the straw.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
I think her greatest gift is her intuitive insight into the human heart and mind. She really blows me away. Wow, I could cry over that. That resonates really powerfully with me. I heard that. Did you hear it, Jen? Absolutely. Her hit podcast, Where Should We Begin, is a must-listen for anybody looking to better understand the complexities of relationships.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
You're not my soft place to fall.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
Time for a break, y'all. Up next, Esther's critical advice for busy couples looking to get that spark back in the bedroom. I know that's so common, so you don't want to miss what she says. We'll be back. It's that time of year when we celebrate love, not just romantic love, but also the special connections we share with our best friends.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
And what I know for sure is that real friendships bring joy to your life. So now our friends at Ulta Beauty want to help you honor your bestie in a big way. Listen to this. Let's start a ripple effect of joy together. Post about your bestie. Tag them and at Ulta Beauty. Share why they're so special to you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
And when you do, Ulta is going to pay the joy forward with a chance to receive a surprise and delight Ulta Beauty experience. The possibilities are beautiful. Thank you for taking the time to be with me here. We're back with Esther Perel, host of the hugely popular Where Should We Begin podcast. We're talking about love and relationships of all kinds. Let's get back to it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love
We have guests who are joining us on Zoom that I think a lot of you are going to relate to. So let's jump in. Christina and Stefan are in Atlanta. And I hear that you two are very much in love and you're raising three beautiful boys, four, six and nearly eight. Okay, where should we begin? What's going on? Hi, guys.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Hi, I am so glad that you all are here with me. Welcome to the Oprah Podcast. They are as controversial as they are fascinating, and I know many of you are really curious as I am. So let's hop right into this question. Can psychedelic drugs like psilocybin, also known as magic mushrooms, MDMA, also known as ecstasy, and even LSD, can they heal?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And you told my team about this guy named Bob Parsons, who is a Vietnam veteran. and a business mogul who founded the internet tech company GoDaddy. Y'all remember GoDaddy? Bob is Zooming in. Bob, welcome to the Oprah podcast.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Oh, my goodness. Well, I don't have a beer, but hello, Bob.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Well, thank you, because I'm so interested in knowing what was your PTSD like for you before you had a psychedelic experience? Tell us how you were tormented by it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Before we begin, I just want to say this. This conversation is not intended to offer medical advice. Psychedelics remain illegal in most states. So I urge you to consult your own health care professional before considering any kind of treatment. So I read your book back in 2018, How to Change Your Mind. And when it was first published, it was really, I would have to say, eye-opening.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And I just want to say this was at a time when nobody was talking about this. Nobody was saying, oh, you know, you're probably suffering from depression or PTSD. You just had to figure it out yourself. And your family and everybody around you is like, what has happened to this guy?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Could you feel that there was something wrong with you, Bob? Could you feel that whatever this is, it's not normal or not right? Absolutely. Had you tried other therapy before?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
From these four experiences. So what happened during the experience? Did you see yourself differently? Did you experience the trauma? Did you relive the experience? What actually happened? Can you tell us?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
So, Bob, can I ask you this? One of the things Michael shared with us is that in one of his experiences, he came away with this feeling that love is everything. Did it open you up to experience love, loving, being loved differently?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
So you and your wife, Renee, now have donated millions, I understand, to research, even funding a center on psychedelic healing at Mount Sinai in New York. What are you hoping for?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
I was surprised that you, Michael Pollan, who had done all of these wonderful books about food and the omnivore's dilemma and what we should be eating, had now stepped into another realm of the plant world.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
So, Bob, can I ask you, do you continue to try various forms of psychedelics or other drugs? Or was that experience that four days enough for you?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yeah. That's why you and Renee have created the center.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Thank you, Bob, for joining us and sharing that story. And maybe one day we'll have that beer.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
A shot and a beer. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you, Bob. The best to you and Renee. The brilliant Michael Pollan is here with me on the Oprah Podcast, and we're about to meet a father and daughter who've used psychedelics for different reasons to help unlock childhood trauma and to help ease symptoms of OCD.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And I found it eye-opening and challenging for me because I'll admit that I have had and continue to have preconceived notions and judgments around psychedelics. And at the time, I didn't think our culture or I, for that matter, was ready for this conversation. I thought, whoa, that's really... This is really bold of Michael to do this in 2018, which at the time it was.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
You may be hearing a lot these days about the use of psychedelics to help heal mental trauma. And that's why I thought this would be a very interesting conversation for the Oprah podcast. We heard from viewers and listeners who have questions for bestselling author Michael Pollan, who's with us today, who wrote one of the definitive books on this topic. Let's meet Dave and his daughter, Reagan.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
They are Zooming in from Utah. Dave, you say psychedelics help you unlock childhood trauma and even is giving you a greater sense of purpose. Tell us, how is that so? That is so interesting.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
So can I ask you this? Can I ask you this? Because I don't know anybody who or maybe I do know somebody who's done it, but I've never asked this question. Are you you're able to ask questions and people can ask you questions while you're doing it. You're conscious enough to be able to do that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
You can hear what other people are saying. So I always thought it was like you're off into your own world and you're having your trip and then you're not a part of whatever this world is.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
That the setting and the... So important. Setting is so important.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Reagan, you're nodding. Did you have a similar experience? I heard you tried just for fun and then it turned out to be more than that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
But now I've noticed, and I think... You are the reason for part of this shift. I've seen, first of all, more articles about it, more stories about it, more people who have engaged with the experience of psychedelics. And I think something is happening in the culture. Would you agree?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
What was the substance? Was it? It was mushrooms.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Any questions you have for Michael? Here's your chance. Absolutely.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
That's a light bulb moment right there.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
It's the same thing.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
All stemming from the same thing.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Dave, did you have a question?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And I think the word spiritual always hangs people up too. I mean, I got so much criticism back in the 80s and 90s and early aughts by just using the word spirit on broadcast television. I think the word consciousness is a better word. I think consciousness, the altering- Sounds more scientific. Yeah, sounds more scientific. And that is actually what is happening in the spiritual experience.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And, you know, in one way- Would you say you were part of that change though? Because when you wrote this book, you know- Yeah, it was pretty fringe.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
You're elevating, enhancing, opening your consciousness to experience life and yourself differently. That's what I think.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
That's why I don't think we're here yet. We're certainly not here yet. Because like everything, once people start using it, it's just like the, you know, anti-obesity drugs. Then people create their own, you know, pharmacies for making the anti-obesity drugs. And people are doing it, you know, on the side. And it's not... you know, authorized and stuff.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And I think it's dangerous for people to have these kind of explorations without a guide.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
You need somebody who knows what they're doing to help you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Especially if you're a person who has demons. Yeah. And you're taking it because you know you have demons.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
That is my favorite phrase on earth. I want to cry right now because anytime there is a challenge in my life, that is the first question that I ask. What are you here to teach me? What is this for? Or if I'm in the middle of a bad dream, I'll say, okay, what are you here to teach me?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yeah. It's not even just curiosity. It's like, I want to know what it is so I can get out of it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Well, thank you all. You all sharing here today has really been informative for all of us. Thank you so much. Yeah, wonderful to meet you. Wonderful to meet you, Dave and Reagan. Thank you. Good luck. So you hear a lot about microdosing. If the Oprah show was still on, we'd be doing shows, I think, on microdosing moms and parents. There are a lot of them.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Microdosing moms and parents in the suburbs having shroom parties. What is your take on that? What is that, microdosing?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
How to Change Your Mind is such a perfect title, too.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
I love that. It's what it's about. What the new science of psychedelics teaches us about consciousness, dying, addiction, depression, and transcendence. I thought, well, if it does all that, I'm gonna read this book.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Natalie's joining us from California. Natalie, I hear you turn to psychedelics to cope with grief. How did that go for you? How did that work out for you?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Oh, thank you for that, Natalie. Thank you. Thank you. So I hear you. What's your question?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
I think one of the things that Michael emphasizes in the book is that the ego and who you believe yourself to be are not identical. They're not. And that separation, that is the biggest thing that happens with most people, I think.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And so your question was about what is the advice for going deeper in the journey? Is that the question?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yeah, thank you, Natalie. Thank you. And thanks to your kids who squealed when they heard you talking to Michael. I have not heard that before. Give them my best. Thank you. One of my favorite questions to ask on this podcast is coming up. We're going to talk to Michael Pollan about what it means for him to live a well-lived life. He always makes you see things in a new way.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
You'll want to hear his answer next.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Was this Roland Griffith's article? Yes, Roland Griffith, who I interviewed in his last dying days.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Thank you for listening to us today to The Oprah Podcast. Welcome back to our conversation on psychedelics with Michael Pollan. In the book, you write that you had, you quote, you say, some kind of spiritual experience. Do you think that there... Obviously, I'm just asking the question, but I already know the answer.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
There is a difference between a religious spiritual experience and one induced by a drug's chemical impact on the brain. And that's the first question. And does the spiritual experience depend upon what your religious belief is or is not?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
I was going to say, how could you be that when you're so connected to plants?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
mental trauma, or even help people reach a transcendent, transformational spiritual experience. Joining me, the man who's an expert on all of this, Michael Pollan. Great to see you again, Michael. Great to see you too, Oprah. Once again, Michael Pollan is at the forefront of a revelatory national conversation.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
So darn true.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And I think we have to explain what ego is because until 2008, I always thought that ego was, you know, you were being arrogant or you were, you know, overly self-assured. Now I know it's that voice in the head that is constantly going, we all have it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
It's constantly, it's a, you know, a gajillion thoughts a day judging and it's measuring and it's, yeah, it's that part of you that is separate from the real you. And it's important to us.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Do you think it's possible that we can reach these same levels of revelations and consciousness and understandings about our connection to the universe, to ourselves and to each other without psychedelics? Yeah.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And he was so calm about the experience of dying, yes. And so you read Roland Griffith's article.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And if you've got anxiety, you can't even sit still long enough to do it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
You know, I'm really grateful to be able to talk to you today because, first of all, you're so smart. And you've written so many books about what our society is collectively about.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
wrestling with and I'm wondering actually I was at a seminar this summer and the head of Stanford was talking about a class that they were going to start there and the class was going to be called what does it mean to have a well lived life and I thought wow I would love to teach that class I'd love to teach that class and be a part of that class and so I love that as a question what do you when you
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
With all the things that you now know as you sit here about to enter a new decade, come on in, the water's fine. It's going to be all right. What to you defines a well-lived life?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And for some people, it seems to be the tool that helps you open the door.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
You see your parents as the trees. Yeah. Listen, you wrote that so vividly. I see your parents as the trees, okay? Well, thank you. Michael's book, How to Change Your Mind, as well as all of his other thought-provoking books are available wherever you buy your books. So thank you to all of our guests for Zooming in here with us with your own fascinating experiences on psychedelics.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
The fact that Bob lived for 49 years. And I love that line, Bob, when you said, and I finally came home. I finally came home. I thank you all for listening. And it's my hope that these conversations help to inform and enhance your life in some way. You know, I've always tried to go through life with a curious open mind. So I thank you all for taking the time to spend your time with us here today.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
He's a renowned researcher of psychedelics at Johns Hopkins.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And be sure if you can to subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube. That is, if you don't want to miss an episode. And follow us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Go well. Bye for now. How to change your mind. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
because he wrote this paper on the mystical and spiritual experience of it all, right?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
So some people are drawn, we know, to psychedelics because they are suffering from mental illness or mental trauma, not mental illness, mental trauma. Because I think if you're suffering from mental illness, a lot of people shouldn't take it if you are.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
So some are spiritual seekers, Some are suffering from mental traumas and others are just looking for this experience or seem to be doing it for fun.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
But in every single instance, isn't it about changing consciousness?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
So if you're using it for therapy, as a lot of people now are.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
It's a guided experience.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
So were you reluctant to take, I mean, you were, you know, pretty straight, straightforward guy. I was terrified. Were you reluctant to take them yourself?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
I would be afraid of having a psychotic break. Yeah. I would be afraid of losing my mind. I was. And not getting it back.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
You were. Yeah.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Okay, so tell us about the time you tell about experiencing your parents in the trees.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
I said, oh, Michael is really tripping. But the realization that you had seemed pretty solid. And I am, Michael, I mean, it made me so curious because I'm surrounded by trees. I love trees. I think I have some, something is going on with me and trees. I don't know what it is. So your experience, tell everybody what that was.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
What does it even look like?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
But the thing about psychedelics- Do you feel it or experience it in a way that you didn't know before?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Psychedelics, once demonized as a dangerous counterculture threat, are being reexamined as a possible tool for treatment for anxiety, depression, addiction, PTSD, and for spiritual transcendence.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And does that conviction stay with you after the experience?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
It feels like a knowing. Exactly.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yeah. Tell us about the... When I'm specifically asking about the parents, the father was the tree and the mother was the tree and they're both... Yeah.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
I come in the gate and I say hello to all the trees. I go, I'm back, tell everybody I'm home.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
I was so struck by that because I think I'm not conscious enough to know, but I know that there is a oneness. There's a connection with all of nature. I just don't know what it is yet. So the plants aren't speaking to me, but I know that there is life there. I know that there is something going on that is deeper than what we can see.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
And it's what most people think they are.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
You're the space between the voice and the thoughts. And when you can separate that, which I can do in meditation and there's an awareness of- It's very similar in meditation.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
But it sounds like psychedelics is a higher level of the deepest of the meditations.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Michael's best known for his blockbuster books about food, like The Omnivore's Dilemma and Cooked. But his groundbreaking 2018 work, How to Change Your Mind, created an opening for a new way to think about psychedelics.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Yeah. Eckhart Tolle talks about that in A New Earth a lot. I'm with bestselling author Michael Pollan, and we're about to hear from all kinds of people who are using psychedelics to heal from mental trauma, including a war veteran who suffered for decades from PTSD.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I am here with bestselling author Michael Pollan, who is at the forefront of research and reporting on the benefits and concerns people have about taking psychedelics. A reminder, this conversation is not intended in any way to be medical advice. You will want to and must talk to your own health care provider if you're interested in taking psychedelics.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Harvard Professor Share How Psychedelics Are Actually Healing
So, you know, a lot of the new research, y'all, on psychedelics started with treating veterans who were suffering from chronic PTSD. This is where the real breakthroughs are, I think. And for decades, it seemed that no treatment worked. And then there were a lot of practitioners who started seeing real relief for patients using psychedelics.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Hey there, and thanks to you for joining me here on the podcast and for watching on YouTube. Today I'm welcoming Dr. Bruce Perry. I've known Dr. Bruce Perry, a world-renowned child and adolescent psychiatrist and neuroscientist. I've known him now for 30 years and more. I invited him on The Oprah Show more times than I can count.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
I love what you said about it's not a switch you're going to turn on. If I may share this, the best definition I ever heard of forgiveness is I can't remember who did it so many years ago on the show, was giving up the hope that the past could be any different. So giving up the hope that the past could be any different is a decision you have to make.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
You have to decide that I now accept that what happened happened as it happened. And I'm going to give up hoping that my parents were, could have been, should have been anything other than what they were. And I am now willing to move forward. It doesn't mean that you excuse it. You condone it. But you accept that you are not going to continually hope that it could have been different.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Because hoping that it could have been different leaves you in the space where you're going to always be stuck and you never get to move forward. You are as resilient. You are as strong. You are as caring for others. You have the compassion that you have because of all the things that you did not get from them before. that you had to find a way to make okay for yourself.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
So give up the hope for them. And also, what Bruce said, also understanding what happened to them. You know, watching you makes me want to cry, but I remember... Having to, I was being asked to come to speak about my mother at a church and she was, you know, a very, not religious. It was important for her to be seen as religious in the community.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
And I had become Oprah Winfrey and everybody knew she was my mother. And I'd been asked to come to church to give all these accolades about my mother. And I couldn't think of one thing. I was listening to other people tell stories of their mother. This girl told a story of how her mother would make lunch, especially in the rain.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
She would pack it in a special lunchbox and she would put their galoshes with those little yellow boots at the front door. And then she'd be home to take them off. And I was like, oh my God, I don't have one memory. I don't have one single thing. And so... When it came time for me to speak, I thought, well, what do I actually have to be grateful for? She didn't abort me.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
You said, you know, all these schools where they have the kids, and those kids get dismissed, and they get suspended from school, and the teachers label them as bad, and they say, this is a bad kid, this is a bad kid. What they really should be saying not is what's wrong with this kid, but what happened to this child. Yeah. That was a... That was one of the biggest moments for me.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
She did the best that she knew. The best that she knew was not enough to feed what I needed, was not enough to make me feel whole, was not enough to make me feel valued or seen or important to her. It was not. But it was the best that she could do, and I gave up the hope that it could have been anything other than what she had. And that's where you have to get to.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Very powerful. Thank you. Thank you, Annie. Thank you for reading the book. And I'm so glad to know that it was meaningful for you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Yeah. Just be patient with yourself. It's not a switch.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Thank you both. Thank you. Thank you. Alexis is joining us from Vermont. Hi, Alexis. I heard you read the book and that it was a validation for you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
So I heard while reading the book, you were better able to understand a lot of your triggers, right? How did that show up for you?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
One of the things I talked about in this book, I think, yeah, I think I talked about it in this book is that I came to the realization too, because I too was a major people pleaser. And I think people who suffer from trauma, particularly if there's been physical abuse in your life,
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Uh, what I realize is, is that every confrontation, even as an adult running a company, I suddenly realized that, oh, I think every confrontation, I'm going to get a whipping. I think there's a whipping at the end of it. I think somebody's, you know, it's my grandmother's going to come in and she's going to take that switch and I'm going to get a whip in. I'm going to get chastised.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
It changed the way I run my school. It has changed the results of what's happened at my school. It changed the way I see people, the way I see myself, the way I operate in the world in business. And you said that when a person or child is actually behaving in a certain way, that that's the question, not what's wrong with you. but more important, what's happened to. How did you know this?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
I'm going to get punished. Yeah. for speaking up or saying whatever's important to me. If I don't do the thing that pleases the other person, I'm going to get punished. That was the big realization for me. I think one of the things that you shared here that's so important that I just want to reemphasize
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
for people who are, for those of you who are watching or listening to us, is that you said, I realized it wasn't my fault. And I think that is the thing that what happened to you has done for so many people. It's freed them to, first of all, understand it's actually the science of my brain and the circumstances that I was in, and it wasn't my fault.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Well, that's why that other book that's also very popular, Your Body Keeps the Score, you're saying that your body doesn't lose anything.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
So if you're under constant stress and anxiety, that is being internalized in your body, in your health in a way that you don't see now but will be manifested later. Absolutely. Show up.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
And this is a thing that I have learned for myself, Alexis, to share with you. You don't have to worry about trusting other people if you have done the work to trust yourself. Yeah. So you can trust that if somebody isn't providing you with...
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
what you need or that the moment a level of toxicity or them shaming or judging or in any way being disrespectful to you in any way shows up, you trust yourself enough to get yourself out of that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
I'll get it done. So you don't go spilling your whole life to somebody and telling. Exactly. You don't open your heart to people that you don't know that they are worthy. Exactly. Of holding the heart space for you. Exactly. And that's the work you're doing on yourself. That's not about them. That's about you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
How did you come to this?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Absolutely. You can get there. You got that. Thank you, Alexis. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. So Dr. Perry told us about the United States District Judge Esther Salas, who is now joining us from her chambers. Hello. These are your chambers? In New Jersey, nearly five years ago. I remember reading that story. That was a horrible story that you endured the most unimaginable.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Will you share what happened? Judge.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Development of the brain in particular.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Wow. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Thank you. I'm so sorry. That is a devastating loss. And we all thank you for sharing Daniel's story with us. So tell us how you then discovered the book and how this book impacted you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Yeah.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Oh, I need I need that rhythm. I heard that the book also, Judge Salas, shifted the way you see the men and women who come into your courtroom. Tell us about that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Explain dysregulation and regulation that the judge is talking about.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
And one of the things that's really interesting about that... And the fact that your boss is an asshole means that they have a story. Exactly. Of some kind of... Trauma or being rejected. Being minimized.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Thank you. Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Because the only people that make people feel like they are minimal are people who feel minimal themselves. Exactly. You absolutely can't do it if you're a whole person.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
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The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Yeah, they are the most interesting kid in the class. And if you are a teacher or an educator who's listening or watching us right now, or you are involved in the criminal justice system, or you are in any way having to deal with people who come from dysfunctional backgrounds, this book is absolutely essential.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
I know one of the things that has been the most rewarding for me, I was working with women at the California Women's Institute, and they read the book as a book club assignment. And then wrote me letters that they all put in a book. And one of the most rewarding things was to understand that for so many women who've been incarcerated for years, they had never understood.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Thank you so much. Always a pleasure to see you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Thank you. Thank you. My hope is that this conversation can help you see a new path to healing. Up next, Dr. Bruce Perry on how to break self-destructive patterns. That's next. Thank you for your company today. My hope is this episode of the Oprah Podcast can help you learn how to start to heal from the trauma of your past. I'm back with Dr. Bruce Perry.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Dr. Perry, once we become aware of our trauma and how that trauma is showing up in our lives, how do we... break the self-destructive patterns. I think this book, may I say, helps a lot because you understand, oh, that's why he does that, she does that, I do that. That's why. Helps you recognize it. But now that you recognize it, what do you do?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
They actually said to me all this time, I thought I was just a bad person. I thought I had a demon. I never asked the question again. What happened to me? I was always asking what was wrong with me. So I think the fact that we did this book together has really, you know, not just sold a million copies, but has affected a million lives.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
And it doesn't have to come from the person that you think it was supposed to come from. Absolutely. Yeah. It could be anybody who actually fully sees you. Right. And values you as a human being. Right. Yeah. And it can, and. For me, that was teachers. That's why teachers, I'm telling you, every teacher in the country.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
It's a one little thing.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
It shook her when I was a little girl. It came to my church and her husband was running for governor. And she turned to me and I never thought of myself as an attractive kid, you know. And she just said to me, you are as pretty as a speckled pup. That moment stuck with me forever and ever and ever.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
And so, I mean, just I think what you're mentioning is being able to be fully present, to be there and see a person for who they are. And, you know, Dr. Bruce Perry, thank you for sharing your wisdom. Again, thank you for writing this book. 2020, we did this book. I mean, thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
And to all of our guests, to Alexis and to Annie and to Dave and to Judge Salas for sharing that story about your beautiful Daniel. to our guests who read the book and shared their experiences and questions. What Happened to You is available wherever books are sold.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
And my hope is that it does exactly what Alexis says, that you read the book and whatever has happened to you, you realize it's not your fault. Number one, it's not your fault and you're not alone. And it serves as a light in your life and a guide, a reminder that healing is possible. And
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Subscribe to The Oprah Podcast if you don't want to miss an episode because we're talking about good things every week here. Go well. You can subscribe to The Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
I also asked Dr. Perry to implement his work called The Neurosequential Model of Therapeutics to help my girls' school in South Africa become a trauma-informed school.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
One of the most important takeaways that I got from the book, depending on what age you are when you experience the trauma, you handle it differently and it manifests in your brain differently. Exactly.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
But the universal principle... Or the long-term effect on a five-year-old is going to be very different than the long-term effect on a nine-year-old.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
It's actually the opposite. Exactly. One of the biggest, biggest, biggest takeaways for me, you all, when I was working with Dr. Bruce Perry on this book is learning. And I'd heard it for years. You'd been on my show. I'd heard the information. I just hadn't received it. And I heard it differently after building a school and having a lot of kids who had come there traumatized.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
But to hear from you that from age zero to two years old, zero to two years old, is the time when the most damage can take place to the developing of the brain.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
So what I learned from you and this book, what happened to you, if you are raised in an environment where your needs do not get met at a very early, early age, zero to two, the synapses in your brain do not form the way other people's do, and you end up with long-term...
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Dr. Perry has written half a dozen books, including one he co-authored with me called What Happened to You? Conversations on Trauma, Resilience, and Healing. I'm proud to say it's a number one New York Times bestseller.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
That's why it's so important for every human being to understand what happened to you. Because what happened to you when you were little, even before you were able to process it, is what dictates Your behavior and your decisions, your choices, the way your brain operates in later life. And that is true for every person.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
That's why that's the most important question you can ask, particularly when things are not going the way that you want. It's not, what's wrong with him? It's, I wonder what happened to him. Exactly.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
And this is what everybody needs to know, particularly about younger, younger children, and that's why the zero to two years old is so important, is that even though those children don't understand language, they understand energy and vibration. Absolutely. They are responding to tone, intonation, the noise around them. That's why sometimes you go to touch a baby and they're like, ah! Ah!
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Oh, exactly. Because they're responding to you, to your energy.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
And the reason why it is so crucial, zero to two, zero to six, those early years, is because that's when we have the greatest growth in our learning ability, right?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
And so I can't emphasize enough, if you didn't get what you needed, and it doesn't mean that you were not in a loving environment because I've over the years interviewed multiple people from the same family, somebody felt that, you know, that's why you end up arguing with your sisters and brothers about what went on because they're saying, well, mom and dad were this.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
And you go, but that wasn't my experience. And if you didn't get what you needed, that's all that matters. Absolutely. That's all that matters. Absolutely. So I think a lot of people may think, well, it's too late for me. I'll live with this pain for the rest of my life. What do you want people to hear and understand about healing from their own trauma and what resilience actually means?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Dr. Perry and I are talking with viewers and listeners about our book.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
This is what I want people to know because so many people feel... as I did, that you didn't get what you needed from a particular parent or from your loved ones who were supposed to love you. You didn't get loved the way you needed to be loved. But I had asked you earlier in one of these conversations, I don't know why I'm not stone crazy, and you said,
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
So that could be a teacher, that could be a counselor, that could be somebody in Sunday school.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
I would say reading it opened up a new way of healing from their trauma. Your work, this book, has had such a profound impact on my life personally and professionally, so thank you. It's a simple question that resonates profoundly for so many of us. What happened to you? I have to say, that question changed everything.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
I thank you for listening to the Oprah Podcast. When we come back, Dr. Perry has advice on forgiveness and how to move forward from the traumas of our past. You don't want to miss that. So stay with us. I'm talking with world-renowned trauma expert, Dr. Bruce Perry. We're taking questions from viewers and listeners who read our book, What Happened to You?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
So I'm really, really so moved today because we heard from a lot of you who have read the book and some of you are joining this conversation. Annie, hi there. You're Zooming in from Minnesota. Oh, lovely home. Very nice.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
Thanks for having me. Can you share how you were impacted by what happened to you in your childhood?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
And I heard that after reading the book, you see yourself differently. I love to hear that. And I know Bruce does too. So how so? What happened?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
That we forgive those who trespassed against us?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Psychiatrist Bruce Perry Give You the Tools to Heal Your Childhood Trauma
I think it was 2018, I was interviewing Bruce Perry for an episode of 60 Minutes on CBS. Yeah, you were there even, Keith, right? Keith, my favorite DP I've had for years. We were talking about children, and you made a comment.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Thank you all for joining the Oprah Podcast and for watching us on YouTube. I appreciate you taking the time to spend it here with me. And I am just so appreciative of the conversations we're having about things that impact all of our lives. And I'm guessing you all have been hearing a lot about menopause these days.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Can you tell me what has been the most delightful surprise for you about sex post age 50 and how does your company Stripes play into that?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Well, dare I say thank you for joining us again. Okay. Naomi, I know you have to get back to work.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
This is one of the many reasons I love Zoom. Thank you for taking the time out of your workday schedule to be with us. Thank you. All right. Well, I just want to make sure that everyone understands that this is a natural cycle of life. Yes. You say this in grown woman talk, not a disease. And the hormonal changes during perimenopause are as significant as those in puberty and in pregnancy.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
So imagine going into puberty and not knowing anything about what's going to happen to your body, which a lot of us women did. Nobody had said anything about what a period is and what the hormones were going to do and all of that. And so many women are experiencing the same going into menopause because their doctors don't even know. There's a lack of an awareness and information from doctors.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
From what I've learned from you and other doctors, it's not even taught in medical school.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
And then there's still all these people who have never heard about menopause and what it means for all of our lives.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Yes. Yeah. I was talking to Dr. Haver, who was saying she had an hour of training about it, a discussion about it, and was in another session that lasted six hours. So you come out of medical school with seven hours of training. So Since 2002, doctors have been trained about it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
And obviously, so many doctors even, I think, are still confused about the Women's Health Initiative study done in 2002, which said, can you clear that up for us to understand what actually happened? This is one of the reasons. The reason why this is so important is because this 2002 study is the reason why so many people are afraid of hormone replacement therapy.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Have to go together if you have a uterus, yeah.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
This is the point that got everybody, made everybody nuts.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
So I'm hoping those of you who are seeing this, if you're watching for yourself, that you pass it on to somebody who you also know needs it. Let's start by you explaining the four stages of women's reproductive and post reproductive lives. Can you walk us through what they are?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Well, I would understand why. Yes. Because I remember I was doing the Oprah show when this happened and it was a big announcement and everybody was like, oh, that's it. Exactly. Hormone replacement therapy is dangerous. It causes cancer. And now what we're hearing, what I hear you saying, and I've heard other doctors say, this was a flawed study. Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
But it became the narrative. It's what people believe. It's the reason why my best friend still won't do an HRT because she's like, she wrote about her in the book, still won't do an HRT because she's like, I don't know, I think it causes cancer.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
And do we know for sure that HRT, that hormone replacement therapy, helps now cardiovascular issues with women?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
We've got people joining us on Zoom with questions. Trisha and her husband, Stephen, are joining us from Edina, Minnesota. What's going on with you, Trish?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
You do that very well in Grown Talk, but I want you to share it with people who haven't read the book yet.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
That's, I think, how so many women feel. And I'm so happy to see Stephen standing or sitting by your side in support of. I know you told the producers, Stephen, that if men went through menopause, things would be much different. How do you think?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
What did you think was happening? What did you think was happening? Since Trish didn't know what was happening, and I know, I don't know many men who've been raised with any idea of what it is.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
So she has to shut it down, right? She just has to shut it down is what I heard you say. Yeah.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
I mean, you know, and I'm like, so what is your question for Dr. Malone, Trish?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
And you list the 34 symptoms in grown woman talk.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
But the more I talk about it, the more I realize we need a Menopause 101 because there's still so much There's so much confusion still out there, and we need reliable information, and we need facts. Menopause is not a disease or a disorder, but a natural part of aging that all women born with ovaries will eventually experience.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
You've been on hormones for 15 years.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
And I have read, too, that the moment the symptoms start, that's when you start. You need to start getting help, therapy, assistance with it the moment you get the first symptom.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
I've heard that too. I don't believe in them. I don't believe in them.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Thank you, Tricia. Thank you, Stephen. Thank you both for joining us. Thank you. I hope it gets better. I hope it gets better.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
You're getting there. Thank you. My hope is that this conversation with Dr. Sharon Malone will help you become more informed about your own body and menopause, which is a natural part of aging that one billion women all over the world are experiencing right now. Stay with us. We'll be back in a moment.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
But all of the things that we normally associate... Isn't the sometimes regularly and sometimes not a real indication that you're in peri?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
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The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
You're not going to say, oh, well, guess what? You get no bonus points, Amina, for having endured it. All right? I get it now.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Tell your family.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
They were right. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much, Amina. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening. I'm glad you joined me here on the Oprah Podcast. We'll be back. There are some common questions for menopause expert and Alloy Chief Medical Advisor, Dr. Sharon Malone, after this.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Hi and welcome back. So glad to be with you here. I'm with New York Times bestselling author, Dr. Sharon Malone, talking with people who have questions about their menopause symptoms. Esther is a mom of two. Zooming in from one of my favorite places. Maui, hello. Welcome.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
We certainly know it helps you with brain fog.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
But you can't take HRTs because of...
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
I think that they just don't know.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
I was just going to say we deserve better.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Esther, thank you. Thank you for Zooming in from Maui. Have a beautiful day out there. Beautiful day. Dr. Malone, I know you believe that perimenopause should actually be thought of as a time for celebration. Tell us why.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
You're done.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
over it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
When all the women are complaining about turning 40 and 45, I just go, oh, honey, if you only knew it gets better. It gets better.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
We do. We do. Thank you, Dr. Malone. Thank you for writing this really profound book, Grown Woman Talk. And thank you to all of my guests for joining us today. Naomi Watts from SET, Trish and Stephen, Kylie, Amina, and Esther. Dr. Malone's book, Grown Woman Talk, is available anywhere you buy your books. And it's filled with just...
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
I would say essential information and more insights on what it means to grow and age beautifully. Dr. Malone and I are talking again in a few weeks about treatments for menopause and a new study that showed that more than half of women age 30 to 35 are experiencing moderate to severe symptoms of perimenopause. We'll be talking with women in their early 30s about their questions and concerns.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
So keep an eye out for that on the Oprah podcast. Go well, everybody. Thank you. You can subscribe to The Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Yes, you did.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Yes. Because menopause is what I've learned. It is losing the eggs. So you no longer have eggs. You have automatically gone into menopause. Exactly. That's right. That's
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
But the natural process is losing your eggs, which means you are no longer able to produce a child.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Menopause occurs when a woman has gone 12 months without a period, which means her ovaries have stopped producing hormones and her body is no longer capable of reproduction. For most women, menopause occurs between the ages of 45 and 55. But before you enter menopause, your body will go through a transitional period known as paramenopause, which can begin as early as your mid-30s.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
I thank you for taking the time out of your busy day to listen to this episode about our health and well-being. We'll have more of my conversation about menopause with the author of Grown Woman Talk, Dr. Sharon Malone, after these messages.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Welcome back to more of my conversation with Dr. Sharon Malone about the latest science on menopause. I want to bring in actress and activist Naomi Watts to this conversation. She, too, has a new book, Dare I Say It? Everything I Wish I'd Known About Menopause. It's a New York Times bestseller. Naomi, I hear you're on set. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me, Oprah. Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
What was the inspiration for you to write it? Because you were going through it or had been through it?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
And what symptoms were the most frustrating for you?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Paramenopause can last anywhere from 4 to 10 years and may include symptoms like hot flashes, fatigue, mood swings, dry skin, dry everything, and low libido. To help us understand more about the menopausal journey, I invited Dr. Sharon Malone to the podcast. Dr. Malone has been a pioneer and nationally renowned expert in menopause for over three decades.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
I know we're going to talk about HRTs with Dr. Malone because there is so much confusion, misconception about HRTs. I've been on them for, I think now, well, for whenever I was 54, that's when I went on HRTs. So I believe them. What is HRT? Can you explain that, Dr. Malone?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
And I hear some women are also now taking a little bit of testosterone also.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Okay, we're going to talk more about that. But in your book, I think this is really an interesting aspect, Naomi, because in your book, chapter 12 is titled Minnow Boss and how to deal with ageism in the workplace. What advice would you give menopausal women who...
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
I think in many cases start to feel invisible at work and also feel a level of embarrassment and shame about going through this change because there is no – number one, they don't understand it and the culture doesn't understand it.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
Yeah, I'm so happy to hear that's changing. We all know your husband is actor and producer Billy Crudup. In the book, you write about honest conversations you've had with him. I'm not going into details today, but what's your advice for women who have not talked to the men in their lives about this? I mean, it was one of your earlier conversations with him.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
She is the chief medical advisor for Alloy Women's Health and the New York Times bestselling author of Grown Woman Talk. So happy to have you here, Dr. Malone. Thank you so much for having me, Oprah. You know, it's what we were saying before, that I feel like I've been talking about it and talking about it and talking about it. And you say you talk about it. It's every day.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Sharon Malone on Everything You Need to Know About Menopause
So tell us a bit about this wellness brand you created, Stripes Beauty, from scalp to vag. What has been the response?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Thank you all for joining me on the Oprah podcast for this special episode. Before we start, it's important for those of you listening or watching to know that this conversation is around sexual assault, and it may be very challenging to hear. And most importantly, this is absolutely not an appropriate conversation for young children.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Yes, to rape their wives. To rape their wives, yeah. To rape their wives. And so you write on page 27, what depths of dishonesty does it take to have maintained all these years the tranquil illusion that everything was normal? So I know your mother even felt like your father doted on her. Didn't you all think he doted on her? He loves her. This is a great marriage.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
No. Or flirting with other women or anything.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
You felt that they were devoted. And in the police station, when she first arrived, when they asked her, what was your relationship? She said her husband was a great man and a great neighbor and all those things. How would you describe him as a father to you growing up?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
After Giselle met with Felice, she called her three grown children, Caroline, David, and Florian, to tell them the shocking truth about the father they thought they knew. Caroline courageously shares her family's unimaginable ordeal in her gripping memoir, I'll Never Call Him Dad Again. So welcome, Caroline. Thank you for having me here today.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And that is a whole lot to have to reckon with. the father that you've known to be the devoted husband to your mother and to be there caring for you and always interested in you. And then to realize that there was this whole other side of this man that you didn't know about. So I realized that a few days you write in, I'll never call him dad again.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
You write that you were called to the police station a few days after your mother and father had been there and she had recognized that, First of all, how did she react in the beginning? Did she... I mean, there's a picture of her body, you know, lying there in the bed or wherever she was placed. And she can see that she's out of it, that she's drugged.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And it's one man after another man after another man. How did she even...
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Because it was a real shock for her. Those of you who are listening to us or watching, you know, hopefully you won't have to go through something as horrible as that. But you know, when you go through something that is shocking, when you have been betrayed... It feels like it strips you of everything you thought you knew.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
It strips you of your own identity because here I was a person who believed all this time that you were a certain way. So what does that say about me that I couldn't see that? You know, it just causes people to question themselves. Did that happen with you?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Absolutely. Okay, so let's go back. The police called you back to the station and what did they show you?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Yeah, when you're looking at, but, okay, so you're brought back to the police station and the police show you pictures that they've taken from your father's computer of you in a pair of panties that you don't even recognize. I don't recognize them. And you are knocked out. You don't recall even where or how that could have been.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
It was also you. It was also you. That leaves me speechless because to recognize, first of all, the day before that your father has been calling in strangers to rape your mother and drugging her for over a decade. And then the next day to be called in and to see pictures of yourself drugged. Immediately, your thought goes to, did he also rape me?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
You traveled 24 hours to get here to do this interview. So I deeply, deeply appreciate that. I have to say, reading your book, I Will Never Call Him Dad Again, was... What is the word? It was shocking and it was infuriating and so, so, so, so disturbing. And so many unimaginable occurrences. I mean, just unimaginable. And every time I turn the page, I'd say, it can't get worse.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
What does he say? Because... My thing is if you see the pictures of your mother knocked out and obviously she was raped because he filmed everything. He obviously didn't film himself or anybody with you, but there are the pictures. Why does he say he took the pictures of you knocked out and drugged?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And why does he say he drugged you?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
The pictures were in a file. And the file was labeled something. What was the file labeled?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Oh, so an IT expertise found those photographs that had been deleted. It's a lot. So he tried to actually get rid of those photographs. Exactly. A week after our interview, Caroline filed a legal complaint against her father, accusing him of drugging and sexually abusing her over a 10-year period when she was in her 30s.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Caroline says she filed with the prosecutor as a message to all victims that you must never give up. Later they found pictures of your sister-in-law. Is it your sister-in-law? You had two sister-in-laws. I have two sister-in-laws, yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Yes, no woman in this family, in this immediate family, was spared. What was your mother's reaction when you told her that they had found photos of you and your father's files? She wasn't able to react.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
From reading the book, I know things might have changed since you wrote the book. From reading the book, it appeared to me that your mom still did not believe that your father sexually assaulted you, that she could wrap her head around the fact that she had been raped by all of those men and that he had called them in for years and she was drugged. But there was something about
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
her not being able to accept that it actually happened to you. And at one point, that became a great tension between you because she said, you know, why do you keep, you know, talking about this or fixating on this? I mean, he wasn't mean his whole life or he was good for a part of your life, is what she said.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And then it would get worse. And then I heard that you said that this was... Writing of this story was an opportunity for you to actually state a way of surviving for yourself. And my intention is to invite everyone who hears us to learn something as a society so that in Caroline's mother's words, shame must change sides. And reading your book, as I was saying, I kept thinking it can't get worse.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
So what did this do, Caroline, to the relationship between you and your mother? Because at one point you write in the book, one brother was siding with the mother and the other brother was siding with you. What did this do to the whole family? Because no one wanted to believe that this had actually happened to you, even though you have the pictures.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And it's interesting, you do write to, and say it so beautifully, I forgot the phrase about how you are the daughter of both the victim and the perpetrator. Yeah, yeah. Next, Caroline Darion tells me how her father managed to keep his dark secret hidden from his family, the police, and everyone else for nearly a decade.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
She also describes what it was like for her own mother to face 51 of her rapists during the grueling trial. Stay with us. Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I want to remind you that this conversation contains discussion about sexual assault. It may be triggering for those watching or listening. This interview is not appropriate for children.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
I'm speaking to Caroline Darian, author of the new book, I'll Never Call Him Dad Again, in which she shares her family's unfathomable ordeal. Her own father spent nearly a decade drugging his wife, Caroline's mother, then inviting men to come into their home to rape her unconscious body on camera. So after seeing the photos of yourself, it became too much to bear.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And there's no one listening to us or watching us right now who doesn't understand that your brain just can't even... You're first trying to process, my mother has been raped by 70 different men. That's on November 2nd. And then on November 3rd, you're brought back to the police station. You see pictures of yourself. And now you've got to process what happened to me. And it was too much to bear.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And you ended up just having a breakdown. What does a breakdown feel like? Can you share with us? What is happening when you break down?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
So you went into hospital for how long?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Yeah. Almost 72. Just to sort of get your brain straightened out.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Chemical submission occurs when a perpetrator uses drugs to make someone unconscious or incapacitated in order to commit a crime against them. Although chemical submission is not new, Gisele Pelico's case drew renewed attention to the method being used specifically to perpetrate sexual assaults. This type of crime has been on the rise for 20 years in France.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
In the United States, this crime is referred to as drug-facilitated sexual assault. It is also on the rise here in America, but difficult to prosecute due to lack of evidence. You talk in the book how you and your mother were not supported as rape victims should be. You're told this information and then just left on your own. I got the impression from your story, though, that...
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And every time it did. I have to say I am in awe of your courage. I think a statue should be built in honor of your mother. I think what she has done for women in the world, regardless of what kind of challenge or difficulty or atrocities that women have been through, that her being able to stand up for the Pelican name
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
At times, the police were sympathetic because they couldn't even believe what they were pulling up. They couldn't believe themselves. That's the impression I got from the book. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this man, Dominique, the man you'll never call dad again, had done this to his wife.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Nobody had ever even heard of this before.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
It was for them. Coming to a nice little French neighborhood, suburban home. The men would park down the street. Can we talk for a minute about the 50 men accused? They know that there were at least 70, but they were able to identify 50 of the men from the tapes because Caroline's father, had one condition for the men. He didn't charge the men to come in and rape his wife.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
He only insisted that he'd be able to film it. And therefore, all of those men who raped Gisele Pellicole over a period of more than a decade, all of those men are on tape. And they ranged in ages from 26 years old to 74 years old. And they come from all backgrounds. One was a sales manager. I heard one was a journalist. There was a firefighter. They're all fathers and grandfathers.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And one of the perpetrators I heard was also one of your mom's neighbor, right?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And one of the men was HIV positive.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
He came seven times.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And was HIV positive and obviously never said he was HIV positive. So your mom did not contract the disease. She's a miracle. That's a miracle.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And he didn't use a condom. No, never have. None of these men were using condoms.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
So wouldn't your mom have... You know, vaginal infections or urinary tract infections. Weren't there always something going on with her?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
In 2019, when Giselle told Caroline that she'd been bleeding heavily from her vagina, Caroline brought her mother to a gynecologist. The doctor detected an inflammation of her uterine passage and prescribed some antifungal ointment and left it at that. So at one point from prison, I think your father wrote a letter to his brother. He wrote a letter.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Your father writes a letter to his brother saying that life is too hard and Caroline's anger is making it worse. He then writes to his brother, try to calm her, meaning you, down. What was your reaction when you read that letter? First of all, he's not even supposed to be writing letters from prison, is what I understood in the beginning, contacting the family.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
gives the opportunity for every other woman to look inside herself and stand up. And I think for you, Caroline, to be willing to speak the truth of your life and this horrific story is just an act of victory and triumph, and it shows that you are a mighty woman. You are a mighty woman, and so is your mother. So I thank you for writing this book. I mean, I can't imagine.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
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The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
So today I'm speaking with Caroline Darion, who traveled here to California from her home just outside of Paris. And this is her first American interview. In 2020, 67-year-old Dominique Pellicot, reportedly a devoted grandfather, father, and husband, was arrested near where he lived in the south of France. He was caught filming up women's skirts at a supermarket.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Well, I actually can imagine because in the telling of the story, you tell us how many times you had a breakdown. But you say that for you, this became a question of survival.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
the more vulnerable people so i wanted i really wanted to make something useful and to go beyond you know this uh terrible legacy yeah well four years ago let's go back to four years ago you were living a life that you called a simple and ordinary life uh i know many women around the world can relate to this and certainly here in the united states you had a home in the suburbs
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And when you know the criminal past of Dominique Perico... Didn't he say he just wanted to look at you?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Next, as my conversation with Caroline Darion continues, we speak with a mom in Minnesota whose case is eerily similar. She discovered videos on her husband's flash drive that would upend her marriage and her life.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
In her first American interview, I'm speaking with Caroline Darion, a French woman coming to terms with the vile actions of her father, which she details in her new book, I'll Never Call Him Dad Again. I think it's important for all of us to note that Caroline's family's case is
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
made global headlines because it was so extreme and her father was caught with over 20 000 pieces of evidence authority has told us that these types of drug induced intimate partner crimes are on the rise but are extremely difficult to detect and, of course, to prosecute.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And so before this interview, I asked Caroline if she would be okay if we invited Jenny Thiessen to our conversation, and she said yes. Jenny now joins us from Minnesota. Hi, Jenny. I know you've been watching and listening and can relate to Caroline's story. You were married, I understand, to your college sweetheart for 12 years, and then you made a shocking discovery. What was it?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And what was your immediate reaction to that?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
you had a really good job that you enjoyed. A husband and a six-year-old son. You were very close with your two brothers and your parents who had retired to this picturesque village in the south of France. So take us back to... November 2nd, 2020, the day all of that all came crashing down.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
He's raping you and you are drugged. And this was used in your court case. We also asked Caroline ahead of this time if she's okay for us to show this. So Kim, we're going to roll this tape, okay? And you tell us, what are we seeing here?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Do you recall any of this? Do you recall any of this at all?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Okay.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And I will have to say, I really appreciate in the book how you reflect back to ordinary things like the kids in the pool and the moments at the grocery store and just ordinary, simple things that are going through your life. And then this horrible thing happens and nothing is ever the same again.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Yeah. And I wanted to say to everybody, we're showing the video with your permission not to exploit the story, but just to see how it happens. I remember when I saw it for the first time, I'm sure you felt had similar feelings. It's just so vile and creepy and disgusting that someone you're sleeping next to every night whom you trust could do that to you.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Well, you will see yourself many times over and I'll never call him dad again because you're you. I have to say. that when we saw this story that became a global story, I think a lot of people were thinking, oh, well, that could never happen here in the United States. Not only did it happen, it's like right there in the heart of Minnesota. So thank you so much for sharing your story.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Have you healed from this? Have you healed from this?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Ginny Thiessen was first told that her ex-husband, Matthew Heger, would be charged with a felony which could put him in prison for up to 15 years. However, the felony charge was dropped because of a little-known marital rape loophole in Minnesota law.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Despite being found guilty of a variety of crimes, Heger served less than 30 days in jail for the crimes he committed against Jenny and his former co-workers. Although it was too late for her case, Jenny fought for a bill in Minnesota to remove any protections for spouses who raped their partners. In 2019, Governor Tim Walz signed the bill into law. Okay, so the wrong word is heal.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
I would agree with that. Have you been able to carry on in a way that your life feels like it's still hopeful and that you will be able to one day put this behind you? You're not defined by it is what I'm trying to say.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
What do you say to your children about this? Because... You know, in Caroline's case, she and her brothers were older. They're adults with their own families and children.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
But when you have teenage children, and this is their father who has done this despicable, disgusting thing to you, and you are fighting in the courts, not only fighting in the courts, I want to say you've got the marital rape laws changed in Minnesota. How do you explain this to your children?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Well, thank you for standing up for not just yourself and your daughter, but for all the daughters. Thank you. Thank you, Jenny. In your book, you include a hypothetical letter to your father. Can you read us an excerpt from that? Okay.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
So how have you learned to live with it?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
The campaign is Stop Chemical Submission, Don't Put Me Under. In 2023, Caroline launched the movement to stop chemical submission, Don't Put Me Under, to help rape victims who had been drugged and to raise awareness of this issue among medical professionals and the general public. And what is the mission? What is the goal?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Yes, if somebody comes in and they're having blackouts and blackouts and blackouts.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Chemical submission. So I was so struck how you write in the book, I'll never call him dad again, how you write about the two women in the grocery store. I mean, if the two women at the grocery store had never pressed charges against him for filming up their dress, none of this would have been discovered. I mean, I worry and wonder what would have happened to your mom.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
She just continued to have been drugged. And eventually, what would all of those drugs have done to her brain? What have those drugs have done to her? She probably could have died. Yeah. Yeah. And nobody would have known.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
In December 2024, a French court found Dominique Pellico guilty of repeatedly drugging and raping his wife and orchestrating her rape by dozens of other men. He was given the maximum sentence of 20 years in prison. All 50 of Dominique Pellico's co-defendants were also found guilty of rape, attempted rape, or sexual assault, and received sentences ranging from 3 to 15 years.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
You say that for years now you've been trying to find a new way to exist. And during the trial, you also asked, how are you supposed to rebuild yourself from the ruins when you know your father? is the worst sexual predator of the past 20 years. How are you managing to rebuild your life? Your son was six at the time. Now he's 10. Your son was really close to his grandfather.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
You two, just like Jenny, had to tell your son about his grandfather being in jail and try to carry on with your life. How have you been able to rebuild?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
How is your mother? How is she now? I know she moved out of the house. You all moved her out of that house shortly, you know, after all of this happened. And she moved to another area and another neighborhood and is driving again because at one point she didn't even feel safe to drive because she didn't understand where the blackouts were coming from or when she would have a blackout.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
So I understand she's back to driving again. But how is she? She is safe.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Mm-hmm. How is the family relationship? Are you all, would you say, not as close as you used to be? This certainly, from what you wrote in the book, didn't make you closer. So has it still created its distances amongst you and the family?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And then... You were doing such ordinary things. I like how you start in the book talking about you were teaching your son to put on the mask.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And so what's your message now to people who either... have experienced something like this, or the reason why you wanted to share your story and to put it into words that would last forever is because you want people to know what, Caroline?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Yes. And, you know, one of the things that I think, you know, nothing this horrible ever happened to me. And I know many of you who will read, I'll never call him dad again. Hopefully nothing so egregious and despicable ever happens to you. But I think what you said earlier in the hypothetical letter to your father is true, right?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
When you have been betrayed and severely betrayed by someone, the hardest thing for anybody who has experienced that kind of betrayal is to admit that you actually never knew who you were. And especially if it's somebody you thought was a good and honest person. And to have to admit to yourself, you know what? I just didn't know. I didn't know who you were.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And be able to forgive yourself for that and be able to, as Ginny said, to move forward. I thank you so much, Caroline. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming all of this way. And thank you, Ginny Thiessen, too, for joining us from Minnesota. The book is I'll Never Call Him Dad Again. And as you have heard from this conversation, it is a riveting and a harrowing read.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
It is available now on Amazon. And I want to take a moment to say, if you or you are or you suspect you are the victim of a sexual assault... If what we have said here today sounds familiar to you, blacking out and can't remember things and this doesn't make sense and all of that, the signals, call the National Sexual Assault Hotline. There's the number on your screen. 1-800-656-4673. Go well.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
He was released while awaiting charges. Police seized Dominique's two phones, a camera, and a video recorder, plus several other devices from the home he shared with Giselle, his wife of nearly 50 years. Dominique Pellico confessed to his wife Giselle about that supermarket incident, but nothing could prepare her for what was to come.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Could you even take it in, Caroline, when she's saying, I'm at the police station and I just found out that your father has been raping me and other men have been raping me, dozens and dozens of men have been raping. Could you, I don't even know how you even take that in. So what did your brain do? Did you collapse? Did you scream? No.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Okay, so she found out because she had been brought to the police station with your dad. Your dad had been accused of filming underneath the skirts of other women. So she thought she was going to the police station to witness that or support that or be there for that occasion, correct?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
They take him into a room. They put your mother in a room. She is sitting there, Giselle Pellicot, and she is being asked all these questions about what is your relationship with your husband and what kind of a man is he? And she's feeling... You know, you're being invasive in why you're asking me these questions, correct? And then they show her the photographs.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
And the reason why they have these photographs is because they, the police, had confiscated his computer. Computer. and had originally been investigating him because of the two women that he's charged with filming under their skirts. And then they found all of these pictures and videos that your father, the man you will never call dad again, had been taking for years.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Giselle and Dominique were then summoned to the local police station, she assumed to discuss her husband's case. Instead, police privately informed Giselle that for nearly a decade, her husband had been recording her on his devices and drugging and raping her.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
Coming up next, Caroline Darion reveals how her own father systematically recruited more than 70 men from nearby towns to rape her unconscious mother inside their home for nearly a decade. She shares the details she uncovered next. Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I'm speaking with Caroline Darion in her first U.S. interview.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
A reminder, this conversation contains discussions about sexual assault and can be triggering for some viewers and listeners. This interview is not appropriate for children at all. Caroline's father's reprehensible crimes made international headlines last year. In her new book, I'll Never Call Him Dad Again, she uncovers how her own father regularly drugged her mother, Giselle,
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
so that she would pass out and then over the course of nearly a decade her father used chat rooms to invite more than seventy strangers into their home on separate occasions to film them raping his own wife caroline's mother so those of you who are not familiar with the story caroline's father
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
went on the internet to some website and invited men into their home, into the marriage that he had been with Gisele Pellico for now 50 years, 50 years, and invited men into the home to come and have sex with his wife. to rape her on a regular basis. This was happening on a regular basis. Because I read in one of the reports that several of the men had been back five and six times.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
by more than 70 different men. By more than 70 different men. And 50 of those men stood trial. Yes. So how did your father drug your mother? And how did you, your brother, David and Florian, how did the children in the family not sense that something was wrong?
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
During that time, Dominique had also invited more than 70 local men, strangers he recruited from chat rooms on the internet to rape his wife as she lay unconscious. He stood by and filmed it all. In total, police discovered more than 20,000 photos and videos on Dominique's devices. in a folder labeled Abuse.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
He would crush sleeping pills.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
During the trial, Dominique confessed that he regularly crushed prescription sleeping pills and anti-anxiety medications into Giselle's meals or her favorite dessert, raspberry ice cream, which he would bring to her in bed. The drugs caused Giselle to have frequent blackouts, insomnia, and bouts of amnesia. She suffered hair loss and also lost 22 pounds over the eight years.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
As Giselle's memory lapses continued, Caroline and her brothers became increasingly concerned that their mother was in the early stages of Alzheimer's disease. Despite several doctor visits and a brain scan, no cause was ever found to explain these episodes. No doctor or family member thought to test her blood for drugs.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Caroline Darian: First Us Interview Since Her Father Dominique Pelicot’s Shocking Trial
He actually had a formula that he would tell the other men about because he was also teaching them how to drug their wives.