Anna
Appearances
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
I don't have a real closet I can sit in in my house. I am under my daughter's loft bed that I've kind of makeshifted.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
Yes, a little coffee table. I made it homey.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
She is four and a half going on 15. Cute.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
I am in North Carolina, right outside of Asheville, actually. Really rural out here, but we love it.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
This story takes place in Jacksonville, Florida, back in 2011, and I was about 19. I was a local musician at the time, and I was gigging at a restaurant downtown that I also waited tables at with my brother. And this guy comes up after the show and was like, hey, you guys were really awesome. I would love to come see you again. Can I have your schedule? Here's my business card.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
Yes, all Kentucky natives.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
He's really nice and kind of just left. And we're like, oh, cool. We love a fan. So a few weeks later, we're playing the show again. He comes up and he says, really liked your set. Can I take you to lunch? And we were like, maybe. Why?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
He's probably 48. He's much older than me. But my brother's with me and he's a pretty big dude. And so I was like, I guess we could go to lunch. So we schedule it and we go sit down at lunch. We get our drinks and he says, point blank, I want to be able to help you with your music career. What can I do for you?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
And he says, I'm a defense attorney here in Jacksonville, and I represent some really shitty people that do some really shitty stuff. I have a lot of money, and I want to be able to help the community. I figured I liked your stuff, so I'd start with you.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
That's kind of where I was at. I didn't get any weird vibes from him. And so my brother piped up and he was like, we could really use a recording microphone. And he was like, all right, great. How much do they cost? And he was like about 300 bucks. So he pulls out his wallet. It's $300 on the table. And he says, it's yours. No strings attached. Go buy a microphone.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
We get to talking and just kind of getting to know him. And he's like, I bought this really crazy camera that I have no idea how to use. Do you want to try to like film some music videos, some content? Again, I know it sounds so creepy. He's like, come to my basement. We'll make a music video. He was never just me. He always had my brother come along. It was never weird.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
So we hung out for a little bit. And then I was talking to him saying like, oh, I don't really have a lot of gigs lined up lately. And the restaurant is kind of slowing down. And he's like, well, I've got some work for you at my office if you want to come work. So he sets me up with this job that I sent flyers out to people who had gotten arrested the night before.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
You just go on the public web page for Duval County and get the whole arrest list. They have an address. You just put a little stamp on it and send them a flyer.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
And that was going pretty well. I was working for him for a few weeks and I was talking to him about this landlord situation that I was in. I was suing my old landlord because he was an asshole and he stole a bunch of money from me. And when I sued him, he was like, you're out of your league. And he really didn't think that I had a leg to stand on.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
So I was telling Richard, the lawyer about this, and he was like, do you want me to help you with this case? And I was like, I mean, it's small claims court. I probably don't need a lawyer. He said, no, no, no, let me help you.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
So this asshole that I had to track down with a private investigator, I had to go to judge's chamber because he tried to tell the judge that the process server didn't serve him. He didn't know there was a court date. So he skipped the first one and I had a summary judgment. And so now he was trying to appeal that.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
So I walk into the judge's chambers with a high-powered defense attorney behind me, my landlord about shit a brick. The judge and my lawyer play golf together. They're friends. It's just great. And my landlord's just deciding that he's going to really ride this ship home and say that the signature on the process server's pages is not his signature.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
Lied to the judge's face. And so Richard got up there and it was like a movie scene. He pulled out a piece of paper that has his signature on it. And he's like, do you not agree that this is the same signature as this one? I mean, pinned him down.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
Yes. He actually said the word, Your Honor, I rest my case. How hot is he? He was like dad hot. Yeah, sure. After that whole ordeal, the judge looked at my landlord and just read him to filth. You've wasted her time. You've wasted my time. You've wasted the court's time. Do not ever come back into my courtroom again.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
So I got to walk out really victorious and I got to look at him and go, who's league am I in now? It was really exciting. And so after that, I worked at his office for a few more weeks. And then he told me that he was going on an extended trip to Colorado to see his daughter. And I never saw him again. Wait. He just disappeared off the face of the earth.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
I just looked him up and apparently he is now back in Jacksonville. But I looked back for him for about 10 years after that. And I never really found that he was back. He just disappeared. And I've reached out to him a few times and never heard anything from him. Is he okay? He's in Jacksonville now. So I'm hoping that he's okay now.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
He said he was going to be on a trip in Colorado for a while. So we are just going to stop that for the time being. And he said, I'll let you know when I'm back. And then he just never came back.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
Just for a hobby. I've got two kids now, so it's not really conducive to gig life. But I play music with my husband. I met him at the Middle School of the Arts in Jacksonville, and we got married and had babies. But my daughter is a musical prodigy. I know every parent says that, but she truly is. I believe it.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
I think he was just kind of lonely looking for a buddy.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
Me too. Dax, I do have to tell you, my husband will kill me if I don't, we watch Employee of the Month at least once a quarter around here. It's one of our very favorites. Q1, Q2. Once a quarter.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
And it was so fun.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
Wow. It makes us laugh. And I also have to say, I used to live out in an even more rural part of North Carolina where I didn't even have service to drive home. And so I would download your episodes and listen to you in my very windy drive. And so I think I've spent multiple thousands of hours of listening. And I love being a part of this community. I'm so thrilled.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Kind Gesture from a Stranger
Yeah, yeah. Well, it's lovely meeting you. Thank you so much. Have a great day.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
I am in Toulouse, France. I live in Portland, Oregon, but I'm visiting my friend who's getting married who lives in Toulouse. She is the one who recommended this prompt to me. We were in a cult together. Oh, together.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
Well, we were children, but it feels very full circle to me. I just arrived today to see her. Oh, hello. lovely.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
Oh, interesting. Yeah, I feel like Colts are kind of a West Coast deal.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
To be fair to Portland, Oregon, I was in California.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
We were all up and down the coast, my group that I grew up in. I don't know if you've ever heard of a group called The Assembly, also called the Giftakis Assembly. No. Not Assembly of God. Thinking Assembly of God, that's a different group.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
Yes. So the assembly doesn't exist anymore, but it was a Christian cult, basically a Protestant church that started in the 70s where the leader just wanted to go back to basics, be really minimal. People didn't wear makeup. It didn't dress up too much. People kind of lived communally. I think it was kind of nice in the beginning. Everyone just sort of participated, you know, saying acapella.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
And it was just like, forget all of that worldly stuff. It had a heyday in the 70s. It started in Southern California, but it was all over. There were branches in Canada, Mexico, England, a lot of places in South America.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
Georgia and Betty Giftakis are guiding light. They were divinely inspired as far as we were concerned. When you talk about cult, at first you think it's going to be like fun and sensationalist and wild, but it's actually just sad. And, you know, a lot of stories are really grim and a lot of them are about abuse. But I wanted something that had a little more sparkle to it.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
Okay. So my story is about a pseudoscientific medical device that my family used that kind of caught on in our very insular group. It's called the Zapper. And the Zapper was supposed to heal you by giving you a very light, sustained electric shock.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
And I want to be clear, this wasn't preached from the pulpit, like the Zapper will heal you. But it was a kind of insular environment where we didn't have any other friends and just weird fads would take place. And if someone of influence brought in a certain fad, one time it was a planner.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
It's almost like an MLM. That's funny because we actually did a lot of MLMs together and just sort of marketed to each other, basically. So to set the scene, because I sometimes go down a dark rabbit hole trying to explain the assembly, I made a kind of list of our fears and loves, which I'm going to share with you.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
If the assembly is a person, the assembly loves abstinence, all day, all night meetings, chores, which are also called stewardships.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
communal living, door-to-door witnessing, fellowships, which are like really lame parties, our leader George Katakis, homeschooling, the Left Behind franchise, modesty, multi-level marketing, street preaching, spankings, tithing, and of course the Zapper Z. If you have a Z and you have an alphabetical list, you got to put it in there. So these are our fears.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
Abortion, bikinis, evolution, government, homosexuality,
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
In a way, we were trying to be so strict and hew so closely to Scripture. We thought all the other churches were kind of too diluted. But you know the verse about straining a gnat and swallowing a camel?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
First, it's about foolish people who would strain a gnat and swallow a camel, meaning focusing on the real details and then swallowing something enormous without even considering it. Maybe that reference is not the right audience.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
Yeah. The thing that made it a high control group was that we believe that our leader and people closely associated with him were receiving divine inspiration. If someone suggested something to you, like you just sort of did it. It wasn't a suggestion. It was, this is my way of being closer to God.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
Yes. My family left when I was probably like 13. I wish I had like the adults or I, but my memories are mostly just being incredibly bored. When I look back on it, it feels as though a lot of the revelations were kind of ad hoc and they're kind of convenient.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
Yeah. I don't know if I would call it a revelation, but by the time I was conscious and participating, one of our big things was we didn't do mainstream music. We didn't watch film and television. We didn't even sing in harmony. What? They were worried there was a lot of pop Christian music at the time and people would get caught up in the music and the emotion and sort of lose the message.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
That way, we're focused on the message. But yeah, let's see, our fears, government, homosexuality, Eastern mysticism, we're like, no can do. Feminism, no. Public schools and their agendas, mainstream music, makeup. We were so scared of Satan. Worshippers, we never met any. We were talking about them all the time. Secular holidays, we didn't participate in.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
The person who claimed to have invented it was like a quack doctor who wasn't part of our church. Her name was Hulda Clark. She's also the author of a quack book called The Cure for All Diseases. She was investigated for medical malpractice. I later learned and moved to Mexico because they were going to close down her wellness center in California.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
Her whole thing was, well, all diseases, including cancer and AIDS, are caused by a parasite in the body. So you just need to electrocute the parasite and then you'll be all better.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
keep you sick oh sure if you commit to like life in the assembly you're asked to push away your friends you're going to meetings every day this group of people down in fullerton they're just always sick and no doctors could tell them what was wrong with them they were fatigued it was headache sometimes it was stomach ache they wouldn't have any energy like they just weren't well george and betty would give them like a special diet they would follow and that wouldn't work
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
We started to call it Fullerton disease. When I hear this as an adult, I think Fullerton disease is probably depression. When you're a kid in the assembly, it sucked, right? Because you're in meetings all day, like you're getting spankings all the time. So many rules. You don't celebrate Christmas. You're just like, this sucks.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
But the best thing in the world was to be sick or someone in your family is sick. Everyone's looking after you. You don't have to participate. Oh, God, this is like producing Munchausen.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
It's the late 90s. The apocalypse is kind of around the corner. We're big into Y2K. We needed like our best soldiers on the ground, but people are coming down with Fullerton disease. So enter this amazing device that's going to solve what doctors and diet can't. Suddenly we're all zapping around the late 90s.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
Imagine a black plastic box, maybe around the size of your face or smaller, with a little light on the top. Inside it's got batteries and wires and stuff, and it's got an on-off switch. Wires are coming out of it. The wires kind of lead to these two copper handles, and you're meant to hold onto the handles and just turn on the thing and get an electric shock. It'll work up to 20 minutes.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
If it wasn't working, you could get a paper towel wet and put that over and get like a little more of a shock.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
Our thing did even less than what you're describing. They didn't even, like, produce any kind of results or anything. Well, this didn't either. They tell you a result.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
Yeah, we were zapping a lot. You know, if you felt like you were coming down with something, you might zap or just kind of proactively you could zap. In my head, I associated it with, like, a punishment. I remember my parents being like, go zap. Your parasite was acting up. Yeah, I would think it was, like, the parasites were out of control. My mom, she likes to be active.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
She can't just sit and hold something for 20 minutes. That's torture to her. She was a seamstress, so she wanted to be like working at her sewing table. I remember that my mom used to take the copper rods and just like put them down the back of her pants. Oh. They needed to make skin contact, but it didn't matter what kind of skin. Sure.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
My dad notices this. He's an engineer. He's got his own shop where he works with some industrial tools. So he goes away and like makes his own modification where instead of the two round handles, which are kind of uncomfortable to put down the back of her pants, he makes it two curved butt cheek shaped sort of thing.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
Obviously. The weirdest bit is now if someone else in the family is using it, you know it's like been down my mom's butt. Ew, yeah.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
My mom decided she was going to leave. She's not only going to leave the group. She's going to leave my dad. She's leaving everything. She got another apartment. She bought a car and disappeared away to this other life just to get out. When you live in this kind of environment, you don't know who you are or what your favorite color is. You can't have a conversation. You just crack.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
So we lived in San Luis Obispo and she went to Atascadero.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
She leaves. And then after about a year, my dad decides to officially remove the family from the group because he was just kind of seeing them for who they really were. Yeah. Ruined his family.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
Oh, not within the marriage. Sex is only okay in this really specific context. But there was this idea of no sex outside of marriage. You're not supposed to have crushes. You didn't really date. You weren't really supposed to have desire. You're just obeying God's command. Oh, this is wild. There's so many.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
It's the straining a gnat, swallowing a camel thing. You get so focused on engineering the zapper that you're not thinking about, why am I doing this? Yeah.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
He definitely did have multiple liaisons. I lived with a lot of allegations against him.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
it wasn't totally monetarily driven, but the tithing, you give a percentage, sometimes like 10% of your earnings to the church. That's all going to George.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
Yeah, her family left a little bit earlier under the guise of, oh, we have to move away.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Armchair Anonymous: Cults II
I'm going to see her get married on Saturday. I'm going to see a lot of old family friends from the assembly days. Wow. Oh, that'll be such an interesting reunion.
Class with Mason
Gender Neutral History of English Literature
Welcome to Class with Mason podcasts. I'm Anna, and I'm here with Mason to discuss a gender-neutral history of English literature as study guide available on classwithmason.com.
Class with Mason
Gender Neutral History of English Literature
Moving on to the medieval age, which spans from 455 CE to 1485 CE, we see significant developments in English literature. This period is typically divided into two main eras, the Old English and Middle English periods.
Class with Mason
Gender Neutral History of English Literature
Absolutely, Mason. And as we move into the Middle English period, we see the emergence of Geoffrey Chaucer, often called the father of English literature. His masterpiece, The Canterbury Tales, is a collection of stories told by pilgrims on their way to Canterbury.
Class with Mason
Gender Neutral History of English Literature
It's going to be an exciting journey through time, Mason. And for our listeners, we should mention that these notes are available on our website class, withmason.com, for further study.
Class with Mason
Gender Neutral History of English Literature
And let's not forget Marjorie Kempe, who dictated what is often called the first autobiography in English. Her book provides a unique insight into medieval life and spirituality from a woman's perspective.
Class with Mason
Gender Neutral History of English Literature
moving on to the Renaissance and Reformation period, which spans from 1485 to 1660 CE. This era saw a remarkable revival of classical learning and a renewed interest in ancient Greek and Roman texts.
Class with Mason
Gender Neutral History of English Literature
And we can't forget Christopher Marlowe, Shakespeare's contemporary. His plays like Dr. Faustus and The Jew of Malta were groundbreaking for their time.
Class with Mason
Gender Neutral History of English Literature
And Amelia Lanier is another important female voice from this era. Her poem, Salva Deus Rex Juderum, is considered one of the first published works of original poetry by an Englishwoman.
Class with Mason
Gender Neutral History of English Literature
And we can't discuss this era without mentioning the Reformation, which brought about significant religious reforms and challenged the authority of the Catholic Church. This had a profound impact on literature and thought during this time. Moving on to the Enlightenment period, which spanned from 1660 to 1790, we see a significant shift in literary focus towards reason and logic.
Class with Mason
Gender Neutral History of English Literature
This era, also known as the Age of Reason, saw writers embracing rational thought and scientific inquiry in their works.
Class with Mason
Gender Neutral History of English Literature
Let's begin our journey through English literature with the Classical Age, spanning from 1200 BCE to 455 CE. This vast period encompasses several important eras that laid the foundation for Western literature.
Class with Mason
Gender Neutral History of English Literature
Certainly. Two prominent figures were John Dryden and Alexander Pope. Dryden, often called the father of literary criticism, was known for his satirical poetry and essays. Pope, on the other hand, was famous for his witty, philosophical poems like An Essay on Man and his translation of Homer's Iliad.
Class with Mason
Gender Neutral History of English Literature
Absolutely. Women writers made significant strides during the Enlightenment. Aphra Behn, for instance, was one of the first English women to earn a living through writing. She wrote plays, novels, and poetry, paving the way for future generations of women writers.
Class with Mason
Gender Neutral History of English Literature
Yes, indeed. Wollstonecraft was a pioneer of feminist philosophy. Her work, A Vindication of the Rights of Woman, argued for women's education and is considered a foundational text of modern feminism.
Class with Mason
Gender Neutral History of English Literature
Indeed, Mason. Let's start with the Homeric period. The key figure here is, of course, Homer, credited with composing the epic poems The Iliad and The Odyssey.
Class with Mason
Gender Neutral History of English Literature
Sappho's poetry is particularly noteworthy for its exploration of love and emotion, themes that would become central to literature for centuries to come.
Class with Mason
Gender Neutral History of English Literature
And finally, in the patristic period, we see the rise of Christian literature with figures like St. Augustine, whose works blended classical philosophy with religious thought.
First Date Follow Up - The Jubal Show
Kristin is getting ghosted by Garret - let's find out why
Our family legacy is this ranch.
First Date Follow Up - The Jubal Show
Kristin is getting ghosted by Garret - let's find out why
Anna, I'm calling from Las Vegas.
First Date Follow Up - The Jubal Show
Kristin is getting ghosted by Garret - let's find out why
The OGs of uncensored motherhood are back and badder than ever. I'm Erica. And I'm Mila. And we're the hosts of the Good Moms Bad Choices podcast, brought to you by the Black Effect Podcast Network every Wednesday. Yeah, we're moms. But not your mommy. Historically, men talk too much. And women have quietly listened. And all that stops here. If you like witty women, then this is your tribe.
First Date Follow Up - The Jubal Show
Kristin is getting ghosted by Garret - let's find out why
Listen to the Good Moms Bad Choices podcast every Wednesday. on the Black Effect Podcast Network, the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you go to find your podcasts.
Ninjas Are Butterflies
123 - Area 51 Secrets, Elvis' FBI Conspiracy, & Wild 2025 Predictions
So good.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Watching yourself say those words now 30 years later,
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Do they have new meaning to you?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Can you tell me about that?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Terry has just asked one of his clients, named Daniel, about the feelings he has during what have become typical but explosive arguments with his wife. Terry asks, if the feelings could talk, what would they say? And Daniel says back, kind of meekly, I try really hard. I try to be a good person. But Terry thinks there's a deeper feeling there that Daniel's not letting onto.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
And you were doing that in this moment. You were facing the flames, or your father was facing the flames, or both of you were.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
That's a remarkable scene you just shared, and I really appreciate you telling us about it. And it is remarkable. I mean, you say it's wise for 34. This is the beginning of your practice. Like, you were just starting to develop this approach to working with men. And I find it pretty remarkable that one of the first men
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
You practiced this on, or did this with, rather, was your own father that feels apt and healing and quite difficult.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Can I ask you, Terry, as you developed and honed in on this idea relational approach to therapy and developed this focus. Is it right to call it a focus on men, a specialty? Is it right to call it a focus?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
As you developed this focus on male psychology, you've talked a bit about the sort of larger therapeutic community, but how did your colleagues respond? I feel like it's just, you know, speaking for me, I feel like it's easy to look at Men, especially white men, and say comparatively this group of people has way more privilege, as you've noted, than other groups in society.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
So did anyone say like, you know, did you ever get pushback on that focus? That sort of, I don't know, privileging as it were of that experience?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
No, I more so just mean, like, did anyone say, like, why focus on this group of people who already has so much power? Although what I'm hearing you say is because this group of people has so much power, that's why I'm interested in focusing on them.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
So he says it back to him, only stronger. Fucking bullshit.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Well, you're bringing up something that I wanted to ask you about, which is like, I'm really curious your perspective on what masculinity means right now. We talked about your early understandings of it, and this is a concept, certainly, I feel like. human society has wrestled with since maybe the dawn of human society.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
It does feel to me, though, that we are at a kind of flashpoint culturally, at least in the United States, where men who hold on to traditional values of masculinity are lashing out. They're What are you seeing in the year 2025? What is going on with men? Big question, Terry, but I feel like you're the person to ask this, too.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
It's a bit unconventional, but this is something Terry does often. He holds up a kind of emotional mirror to the men that he works with, trying to get them in touch with what's underneath.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
I mean, you're talking about these models of masculinity, and I'm thinking about the models that are out there right now, especially kind of ascendant ones that are very different from what you're laying out. I'm thinking specifically about the manosphere, as it's called. These are podcasts, YouTube channels, online forums, influencers that are really pushing traditional masculinity.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Do you ever see that kind of stuff? And what do you feel when you do see it?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
You can give me your New Jersey self. I want to throttle them. And what would the therapeutic self say?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Yeah, it's big right now.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Terry reels hope for the future and what he thinks it will take for men to get there. Terry, I'm curious whether this mission of reaching men feels more urgent to you now than it has before.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
I mean, you've written before about some of the progress you've seen men make over the years. You wrote once that millennial men in particular were the most gender-progressive generation maybe ever. And given what we've been talking about, the resurgence of traditional masculinity, the manosphere, I just wonder, like, does that trend feel like it's reversing for you right now?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Terry is well known for this direct, confrontational, but still quite loving approach. In this conversation, Daniel actually wrote about it for the New York Times Magazine in a piece called How I Learned That the Problem in My Marriage Was Me.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Man, I mean, but it seems like that is the direction that we're heading. I mean, you said that this is kind of the last gasp, but I don't know. It doesn't feel like a last gasp. It feels like perhaps this approach to the world is gaining steam.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
And Daniel learned that because, unlike a lot of couples therapists, Terry takes sides, tries to get to the truth of what's going on, what's behind a couple's behavior.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
You were holding the door shut because he was inside because he needs to be in timeout and you didn't have a lock on the door. I can see the scene.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Terry, I have just a couple more questions for you. Here's a big one. Why should men listen to what you have to say?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
The thing is that I'm right. I mean, I love it. Yes. Terry, you've mentioned your wife, Belinda, who's also a family therapist. Brilliant, brilliant therapist, yes. Can I ask you, like, a thing I find really remarkable and frankly soothing about talking to you is you have an answer and usually like a phrase or you've written a book as an answer to so many of my questions.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
But of course, you know, no one has all of the answers and we are constantly working on ourselves. And I guess really to close, like, What is something that you are working on in yourself and in your marriage to Belinda?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
I don't do that. Stop it.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
That is so sweet. Terry Real, thank you so much for this conversation. It gave me a lot to think about and I'm grateful.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Terry Real, everyone. This episode was produced by Davis Land. It was edited by our executive producer, Jen Poyant. Production management by Christina Josa. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Diane Wong, Pat McCusker, and Dan Powell. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez, with studio support from Matty Macielo and Nick Pittman.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Special thanks to Paula Schumann, Lisa Tobin, Wendy Dorr, Emily Lang, Mahima Chablani, and Jeffrey Miranda. And to our video team, Brooke Minters, Felice Leone, Michael Cordero, and Sawyer Roque. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we'll have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Terry's been doing this for more than 40 years. He calls his approach relational life therapy, and he's written several best-selling books about it. And that whole time, he's kept a particular focus on men.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Because for Terry, the things he sees men struggle with, from the most mild problems to the most extreme behaviors, it all stems from something fundamentally broken about the way our culture defines masculinity. So today, Terry Real tells me what he's learned about masculinity that drove him to break the rules of therapy.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
He'll tell me how his own childhood showed him that our current models of masculinity don't work and what it will take to build new ones. And during our conversation, we talked a lot about what it means to be a man right now. Because to Terry, despite his 40 years with hundreds if not thousands of clients, he says his mission of reaching men has never felt more urgent. Stay with us.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Terry Real, welcome to Modern Love.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Terry, you are, I think it's fair to say, an institution in your industry. You've been a marriage and family therapist for how long? For 40 years?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Okay, let's not round down. Let's say you've been a marriage and family therapist for 42 years. How do couples end up in front of you? I have to be honest, I don't really feel like a guy would be calling you up and being like, hi, I need help with my marriage. So how do people end up in your office?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
And as I know from reading your work, shame-based people in a relationship are often women in a relationship, and then the grandiose-based people are often men. Is that right?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Hey, it's Anna. Just a quick warning, there's a bit more swearing in this episode than usual. So if you're listening with kids, maybe wait until later? From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
The toxic individualism, yeah.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
I actually read that line in your book, and I was hoping you'd say it out loud because it's just too good. Outrun your rectum. Perfect. Put that on a shirt, unless you have.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
You write about that process in, I think it's your first book, which was about male depression. That book is really fascinating. You write how male depression, as you describe it, often comes from these unacknowledged feelings and is often the root cause of many problems in marriages, in families. Right.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
I want to talk more about that, but first I want to know more about why you decided to focus a lot of your practice on working with men specifically. And just to start at the beginning, when you were growing up, what did you think it meant to be a man?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
When he told you this story... Did that change anything about how you saw your father? Did it shift something in your understanding? Did it make you understand something about him?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Your father said that about his father.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Because it reminded him of his own father?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Today, I'm talking to marriage and family therapist Terry Real.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
The way that you opened up space, as it were, encouraged your father to share, was that sort of the beginnings of Terry Real's approach to therapy with men? Like, did you seed anything in that conversation that we now see in your practice today?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
Wait, were you, was someone doing family therapy on you, your mom, and your dad, or were you doing family therapy on the three of you?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
What are you seeing yourself doing?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: Why Boys and Men Are Floundering, According to Therapist Terry Real
This is Terry reenacting one of his marriage counseling sessions.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
You know, I'm curious, just personally, what have these 36 questions taught you about falling in love? Hmm.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
I really like that. Dan Jones, thank you so much for this conversation today. It is always a treat and an honor to have you on the show. Thank you.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
As Dan told us, Mandy Lynn Catron spent a long time wrestling with all these questions about love. She was trying to understand how to find love and how she would know when she found it. That's what led her to the 36 questions. And we do know that it worked. She did fall in love after doing them. But it's been 10 years since her essay was published. So the question now is, did she stay in love?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
After the break, Mandy joins us to read her Modern Love essay. And she tells us what happened in the decades since she wrote it. Modern Love Mandy, Len, Katrin, welcome back to Modern Love. Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here. Mandy, on today's episode, we're talking all about the process of falling in love, how it happens, what it takes, what it feels like.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
And you, of course, probably have the most well-known story of falling in love to ever appear in the Modern Love column. I wonder, when you first decided to do these 36 questions with a man you did know, but you didn't know super well, a man named Mark, could you possibly have imagined what that moment was going to lead to in your life and in the world?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
I mean, it really, really did. You know, Mandy, I have so many more questions about the questions and about your own love story. But before we get too far into that, I would love to hear you read your essay. Okay, sure.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
Beautifully done, Mandy. What's coming up for you just in the immediate aftermath of having read this piece? It's been 10 years since you wrote it.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
That's so wonderful, Mandy. Congratulations. I am wondering, though, I mean, you said that marriage is not something you're really that interested in as an institution. But it's clear that this wedding will be marking something for the two of you. What do you think it says about your love or your commitment to one another?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
I mean, thinking about the beginning of your and Mark's relationship being these 36 questions and those moments of intense connection you shared in the bar and on the bridge, 10 years out, do you think... that beginning shaped your relationship in some fundamental way?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
Mandy, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing this update. Thanks for having me. If you want to read Mandy's essay in full, the link to it is in our show notes. And before we go, I did promise you at the top of the episode that we'd play more of your voice messages. Stay tuned for those after the credits. Like I said, we loved hearing from all of you.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
We quite literally listened to every single one, and it was such a treat. Special thanks to Mahima Chablani, Nelga Logli, Jeffrey Miranda, and Paula Schumann. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones. Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you want to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
My head was on his chest and I could hear his heart beating. And I suddenly knew very, very surely that I needed to hear his heartbeat my whole life.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
Honestly, we got so many messages from you that we can't possibly play them all here. But we did listen to every single one. And they just, they felt like fantasies. I felt like I was there with you, under the stars, at dinner, watching the sunset. Listener, let me tell you, romance is not dead.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
I could listen to these all day. I mean it. And we're going to play some more of your messages later in today's episode at the end. But before we get to those, your messages, your stories, they got the whole Modern Love team thinking. What does it actually mean to fall in love? This feeling so many of you described, the puzzle pieces, the warmth and comfort and feeling at home.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
How do we get there? What makes us love each other? Today, we're going to spend some time on that exact question. Ten years ago, Modern Love published possibly the most iconic story of falling in love in the history of the column. It was in an essay called To Fall in Love with Anyone, Do This by Mandy Lynn Catron.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
In it, Mandy describes a list of 36 questions developed by a psychologist that are meant to help spark and deepen intimacy. What happened to Mandy after she used it reveals a lot about how we fall in love. So today, we're going to talk to Modern Love editor Daniel Jones about how people fall in love and the power of those 36 questions.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
Then we'll hear the original essay from Mandy herself, and she'll tell us whether she's still in love with the same man she did the list with 10 years later. That's after the break. Stay with us. Daniel Jones, welcome to Modern Love It's good to be here So, Dan, today we're talking all about those singular moments that lead to falling in love. And I wonder if I could turn that to you.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
Can you share a moment where you knew you were falling in love?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
Sweetest dog ever who you fell in love with. In a moment. I love that. And I mean, you've read and you've heard thousands of love stories. And because we're talking about sort of the beginning of love stories today, I'm wondering if you have any kind of theory about how those moments happen, how people fall in love.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
Okay, so Dan, we wanted to have you on also to talk about what I think is fair to say is the most famous example of falling in love in the Modern Love Column's history, which is Mandy Lynn Catron's 2015 essay, To Fall in Love With Anyone, Do This. And it's based on a list of 36 questions that have become incredibly well-known in their own right.
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
They're questions you're supposed to do with a partner, and supposedly doing them will lead you to to fall in love with each other. This is an essay that people have come back to over and over again, even now, even a decade after the essay was published. Can you remind us of the story behind this essay?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
They just stare into each other's eyes and then it ended?
The Daily
‘Modern Love’: How to Fall (and Stay) in Love
We've been asking you about the moments you knew you were falling in love. And we heard from so many of you about moments that led to a lifetime of commitment. Relationships that ended almost as soon as they started. Moments where your love was not returned. Stories from decades ago and others from very, very recently. Some of those moments were small and subtle, others straight out of a movie.
The Daily
You Have Questions About the Economy. We Have Answers.
Hi, this is Anna. Hi, this is Lucy.
The Daily
You Have Questions About the Economy. We Have Answers.
I saved enough money to pay for a down payment on a house.
The Daily
You Have Questions About the Economy. We Have Answers.
But with the economy where it is, is that a crazy thing to do right now? Thank you.
The Dan Bongino Show
The Immigration Hill The Dems Will Die On | Episode 24
First of all, there is no evidence that has ever been presented. OK, there's no due process. There's no anything that's agreed on. Every court has said bring him back. So what do we do? So, well, we don't we want to pivot to another issue. Let's just leave him down in some house over and dump.
The Dan Bongino Show
The Immigration Hill The Dems Will Die On | Episode 24
Now, let the president of the United States, who, by the way, in his oath of office is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, which the Supreme Court, I think, is Article three. But don't hold me to it. It is. It is. blatantly disregarding an order.
The Dan Bongino Show
The Immigration Hill The Dems Will Die On | Episode 24
So if we pivot to another issue, if we take care of the middle class, if we don't have laws in this country, what good have we done? I just think that it is an
The Dan Bongino Show
The Immigration Hill The Dems Will Die On | Episode 24
People say, well, should we really fight on this turf or should we fight more of ordinary people? This we should fight on. You can't pivot to an economic history. Wait a minute. This is why we think we are a country. And they do this to him. It's an old saying. First they came for, you know, whatever, and then whatever, and then they came for me. You know why you remember that saying?
The Dan Bongino Show
The Immigration Hill The Dems Will Die On | Episode 24
Because there's wisdom in it. There's real wisdom in it. And history has taught us that. And first they came for him, and then we're going to say, no, right, dad, we got to keep fighting this. I think this is worthy of being on a top agenda of things that we're going to fight over is get this guy back home.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Ania Jastreboff on How People Treat You Differently After Weight Loss
Hi, Oprah. Hi, Dr. Anya. Dr. Anya is actually my mom's doctor. So good to see you. Great to see you too.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Ania Jastreboff on How People Treat You Differently After Weight Loss
Shout out my mom. So, yeah, a few years ago, I kind of started getting into the dating scene. And, you know, when you don't like the way you look and when you're overweight, it's already so difficult.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Ania Jastreboff on How People Treat You Differently After Weight Loss
to set up a profile just for yourself you're just like looking at what pictures are kind of the most strategic and not even in a way that you want to hide how you look because I never wanted to hide the way I looked but it was also just like I just didn't like any pictures of myself I just never took any pictures of myself because I didn't like the way I looked
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Ania Jastreboff on How People Treat You Differently After Weight Loss
So just starting off, it's already difficult. And then I remember I would start talking to guys and before I would go on a date with them, I would always ask them, well, just letting you know, like I'm bigger or I'm curvier. Is that okay with you? Like as if the way I look needed to be okay with them, which is just so strange because thinking about it now, it's like,
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Ania Jastreboff on How People Treat You Differently After Weight Loss
well, if they didn't like me, then why would they even go on a date with me? And also like they've seen how I look. So it was just, it's very strange that I felt the need to do that.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Ania Jastreboff on How People Treat You Differently After Weight Loss
But I do think that that's the way that a lot of people feel dating and a lot of women, especially because in dating culture today and in dating app culture, everything is about first impressions and about the way you look.
The Oprah Podcast
Oprah and Dr. Ania Jastreboff on How People Treat You Differently After Weight Loss
Yeah. So I think there's like a misconception that obesity isn't related to mental health. And I guess my question is like, why do people think that and how are they really related?
The Ramsey Show
Life Happens—But Your Plan Doesn’t Have to Fall Apart
So my income is $50,000. I was a stay-at-home mom, so just started working at the end of the marriage, which was like five years ago. So I do own my home. Well, I have a mortgage on my home. And I have credit card debt because I've lived off of credit cards when he didn't pay.
The Ramsey Show
Life Happens—But Your Plan Doesn’t Have to Fall Apart
So $30,000, I have a year ago, I closed all of the accounts and negotiated the interest rates down to zero or three or 4%. So I have been paying them off and not spending any more on credit cards.
The Ramsey Show
Life Happens—But Your Plan Doesn’t Have to Fall Apart
So progress, but... The child support has stopped again recently.
The Ramsey Show
Life Happens—But Your Plan Doesn’t Have to Fall Apart
I would say I need to make $2,000 more a month. How many babies do you have? Well, and I have three, but they aren't babies anymore. They are two are grown, and the youngest one now is a senior in high school.
The Ramsey Show
Life Happens—But Your Plan Doesn’t Have to Fall Apart
Well, because I think, one, because I have the debt that I'm trying to pay off, so I I'm paying $704 a month to the credit card payment. My house payment is $1,800 a month, and that includes taxes and insurance. And then I have a car that's $253 a month, and I owe $10,000 on it. So, you know, I'm wondering, do I sell my house? I have about $120,000 in equity.
The Ramsey Show
Life Happens—But Your Plan Doesn’t Have to Fall Apart
Pay everything off and just start over from scratch and try to.
The Ramsey Show
Life Happens—But Your Plan Doesn’t Have to Fall Apart
So I'm very motivated to just be on my own and be free.
The Ramsey Show
Life Happens—But Your Plan Doesn’t Have to Fall Apart
So I work in marketing. And like I said, didn't have a career, so started off. What are you doing in marketing? I work. I'm a trade show coordinator.
The Ramsey Show
Life Happens—But Your Plan Doesn’t Have to Fall Apart
Well, no, they are regular Monday through Friday, eight to five. So definitely could do something on the weekend.
The Ramsey Show
Life Happens—But Your Plan Doesn’t Have to Fall Apart
Right. You're exactly right. My confidence was completely lost. gone when I got, you know, at the end of the marriage. So it's been five years of just realizing that, you know, that I am capable.
The Ramsey Show
Life Happens—But Your Plan Doesn’t Have to Fall Apart
He was supposed to be paying $2,500 a month.
The Ramsey Show
Life Happens—But Your Plan Doesn’t Have to Fall Apart
Hi, I'm good. Thanks for having me. Sure.
The Ramsey Show
Life Happens—But Your Plan Doesn’t Have to Fall Apart
So my question is, I am seeking advice on how to stay afloat after a divorce and my ex-husband is not paying child support.
The Ramsey Show
Life Happens—But Your Plan Doesn’t Have to Fall Apart
Well, so I was married for 20 years.
The Ramsey Show
Life Happens—But Your Plan Doesn’t Have to Fall Apart
Okay, well, he uses it to control me. It was an abusive marriage and... Um, I've been out for five years. And so for that five years, I mean, it's been, it's been a tool that he has hung on to that he can control me with.
The Ramsey Show
Life Happens—But Your Plan Doesn’t Have to Fall Apart
Um, it's hard to even tell. And I've done, I've gone that whole route with EHR. They, you know, they, they don't actually go and get him, you know, there's a worn out or whatever. So, um, I guess I don't want to go down that too far because I want to know what can I do to stay afloat and support myself. I'm tired of being controlled.
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
Well, this weekend I received some devastating news that my husband was scammed out of almost his entire 401K. Ooh. And, um, so now it's tax time and, um, we're going to have to pay taxes on it. So we have no more retirement and our savings is going to be wiped out. And, um, I don't know where it began from here.
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
$270,000. Yes, sir. There's a little bit of a backstory. I'm not making excuses for him, but there's a little bit of a backstory as to why he felt financially strapped, that he felt he needed to do this to secure a financial future.
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
I'm 57. He's 58. We have no debt. We paid off our home in February of 2022.
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
Right now he makes approximately $98,000 annually and I'm currently not working. I had to quit my job in January of 2023 because I was diagnosed with cancer, and the medication that I'm on just causes me a lot of side effects that we chose. It's better for me to stay home because we could afford it. Obviously, we have no debt again, and he was...
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
He was looking into securing our future so that he may be able to retire early.
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
um doing some research as to how to invest money he knows nothing about he's not he's not educated in that so your voice is fairly muffled speak directly into your phone please okay there you um he's not okay he's not um no he's obviously even if he is educated he's not wise and he got desperate it sounded like he he did and right after i get desperate i usually get stupid That's what it was.
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
And so that happened in January, 2024 in and about March or April, he came up to me and told me that, um, that he had invested a little bit of money and I was like, okay. Um, and he says, and he showed me that it was, he showed me the app and he showed me that the money was, I mean, we had made it made about three or 400,000 and I said, okay, how much did you invest?
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
And he told me at that time, he said 30,000. I said, what did you get the money from? Cause I take care of all the banking. And he said that he pulled it out of the 401k. And I said, okay, no mistake. You know, we'll get, we'll get through this. I found a temporary job. I made enough money to cover the taxes. I made, I calculated, we probably owe about 6,000 taxes. I said, okay, great.
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
Well, I'll take care of it and I'll get a permanent job. So it won't affect our savings. And now that it's tax time, I kept looking for the form that comes in, the 1099-R, I believe, and he kept making excuses as to why we hadn't received it. So I kind of had a feeling that it was worse than what I knew and that it was worse than what he had told me.
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
And this weekend he gave me the paper and it was $270,000. So now we will have to... And now it's worth zero, of course. Yes. Well, I looked at it last night and there is about $16,000 in it right now.
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
No, it wasn't an actual scammer. I had demanded that I, back when he told me it was $30,000, I demanded to know where he sent it, how he sent it. I wanted to know everything. And apparently it was a company in Hong Kong. And, um, I, I looked up the address and it's, it's, it's in the slums of Hong Kong. I'm like, why didn't you do the research before?
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
Well, the thing is now he said that it wasn't the 200. I'm like, how can you, how can you go from 30,000 to 270,000? And he said it was about the same time he invested here, you know, in a couple of different.
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
No, no, he owns it. He's been living with this for the past year, and it's, I mean, he had his.
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
Yeah, he just came clean with it, but he was living with that lie for the past year.
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
Right. And he's like, I'm prepared to work till I'm 70. I mean, he has a really good job right now.
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
It's getting there. I'm on a clinical trial. Okay. And so I'm hoping that this will be something that will, you know, give me more time. And I feel pretty good except, you know, just the usual side effects. I'm happy, you know, every day is a good day. And I'm not going to let this bring me down, but it does scare me for our future.
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
Well, I'm 63 1⁄2 years old. My living situation has become a little bit unstable. I'm single. And I don't know whether I should take some of my meager retirements or savings and buy a townhouse or a place to live or if I should continue maybe to rent and stockpile for retirement.
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
401k, I have $57,831. Money market, $58,381. An IRA for $14,981. I'll have a small $204 a month coming in from UPS in per 10,000 in savings, six in my checking, and that's all I've got to my name. No debt. I drive a 2007 sunburnt car with 144,000 miles on it. You've been very careful. Congratulations.
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And I just found a second job last week to learn how to do bookkeeping.
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
It's where I'm living that they may not rent to me anymore. It's a little bit of a messy relationship kind of thing.
The Ramsey Show
Skip the Scams, Build Real Wealth
Their home is paid off and I paid like $450 a month towards expenses. So super duper cheap. I just got a raise at work. Now I'm making $58,000 a year.
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At times, yeah. I'm not... I don't know whether I should go, whether I should stay. And if I go, a one-bedroom, one-bath apartment is like $1,500 in a safe area, you know? Trying to find maybe a place to roommate, but that's not manifested itself yet. So yeah, the living situation is just kind of up and down.
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My question is, do I need to be patient and trust the process or should I be more gazelle intense? I have paid off, well, my husband and I have paid off probably $32,000 since October of 23. And we still have $28,000 left to go. What's your household income?
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It's fluctuated, but it is not last year, but the year before it was $120,000, and I'm not quite sure what last year's was, but probably something similar.
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Well, rent is almost $2,000. That's 24 out of 120. Yeah, and then I know we have to pay for health insurance out of pocket, so that's $1,000 a month.
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The budgeting, probably not so much. We're both on board with paying off debt.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
I was actually making our wedding invitations and he had signed on to his Google Drive on my computer so I could access the photos that we took in the UK last summer and I came across a screen recording. So then I started looking for more and found a lot more.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
It was his college roommate and his wife engaged in intercourse.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
In a lot of different ways. So they would just send him Oh mein Gott. Und dann, als du mehr gelesen hast, was hast du noch gefunden?
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
Hast du etwas anderes gefunden? Es gab auch andere Dinge in der Vergangenheit, die ich abgelassen habe. Aber alles, was ich gefunden habe, kam von mir heraus. Er hat nichts gefordert.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
What did he say? He told me about how they slept together before we met, but he lied about the timeline. He said it was like months before we met, but it was actually like a few days before we did, which that doesn't matter. It's before we met, so it's fine. But then he did admit to sending videos back to them and receiving videos from each of them separately, which he has then deleted.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
So he said that that never happened now. And that's basically it. So he admitted more the night of before I ended things than he is now.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
I called his sister the next day. I was really close with all of his family. I spent a lot of time with all of them because he wouldn't leave me alone. He just kept kind of crying and being sad and trying to guilt me into moving forward. And I needed space to think about it.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
And so I called his sister and she was kind of like, I gave her bare minimum details, but she said I could come stay with her. And I told him, hey, I'm going to go see with your sister or you need to go stay with your mom. And so those are your two options. So then he left to go stay with his mom.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
I was, but as soon as he got back, it started getting really weird communication from his whole family. And so I was kind of wondering what was going on and what he had actually told them. And so he came back to figure out the least stuff with us with his mom a few days later. And his mom was acting really weird towards me. And so he ended up staying with me that night and a few nights after.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
So then when he was sleeping, I looked through his phone and found all the bipolar messaging that he was telling everybody.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
Du musst sehr vorsichtig sein. Ja, ich werde nichts damit machen.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
Ich habe ihn immer gefragt, was er jedem erzählt hat. Und er wird nichts sagen. Er sagt, er würde nie ein schlechtes Wort über mich sagen, dass er ihnen alle die Wahrheit erzählt hat. Aber ich weiß, dass das nicht wahr ist. Es war sehr frustrierend, weil er weiß, dass ich die Botschaften gesehen habe. Und er wird nichts sagen. Hast du etwas zu seiner Familie gesagt?
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
Yes, I've tried, but I feel like they just think I'm crashing out.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
I told them that I'm not bipolar and that he did cheat on me and that they have no right to spread those rumors about me amongst their family.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
Ja, ich habe ihnen gesagt, dass ich Beweise habe und er hat gesagt, dass er mich für Revenge-Porn schulden würde.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
Wie kann ich Anna helfen? Wie kann ich meinen Namen von einer Schmierkampagne von meiner Ex-Fiancée erklären?
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
Es ist ziemlich schlecht. Also habe ich herausgefunden, dass er mich in einer wirklich grösseren Weise, in meiner Meinung, verletzt hat. Okay. Und das ist deine Ex-Fiancée? Okay, ich bin sehr entspannt, das zu hören. Wann hast du all das herausgefunden? Late February.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
They're also not letting me let it go though, because there's, you know, the pages.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
Yeah, he was posted on one of those recently and someone else that I don't know commented on it saying that his engagement just ended and his fiance found him cheating. And all I did was comment on it and say, can you DM me, because I'm wondering what the timeline of this is. And his sister commented on it, basically calling me a liar in front of everyone. So I was like, just leave me alone.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
It really doesn't, but it's just more... I sat in my apartment for two weeks by myself wondering if I actually am crazy. Because why was it so easy for these people that I've known for so long to just completely switch over? So it's just more validation because it made me feel crazy how we were so quick to accept it.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
Ja, und ich meine, ich war sehr traurig für drei Tage, aber ich glaube, es ist valid.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
Ja, meine Familie lebt in einem anderen Zustand, aber ja, alle meine Freunde sind großartig und ich bin auch in Therapie.
The Viall Files
E939 Ask Nick - Revenge Dating
I am. I feel a little bit better about everything. I am really glad I found out before we got married, because that makes it a lot easier.