Andrea Gunning
Appearances
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: Third Week of Testimony Resumes
This is an iHeart Podcast. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: Third Week of Testimony Resumes
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: Third Week of Testimony Resumes
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: Third Week of Testimony Resumes
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew.
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: Third Week of Testimony Resumes
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: Third Week of Testimony Resumes
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: Third Week of Testimony Resumes
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: Third Week of Testimony Resumes
Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: Third Week of Testimony Resumes
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: Third Week of Testimony Resumes
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: The Detectives and The Stylist
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: The Detectives and The Stylist
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: The Detectives and The Stylist
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: The Detectives and The Stylist
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: The Detectives and The Stylist
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: “Mia” Takes the Stand
This is an iHeart Podcast. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: “Mia” Takes the Stand
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: “Mia” Takes the Stand
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: “Mia” Takes the Stand
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: “Mia” Takes the Stand
Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: “Mia” Takes the Stand
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
The Diddy Trial: “Mia” Takes the Stand
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Behind the Bastards
CZM Rewind: Part One: Dr. Oz: Why 'America's Doctor' Is A Bastard
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Behind the Bastards
CZM Rewind: Part One: Dr. Oz: Why 'America's Doctor' Is A Bastard
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
Behind the Bastards
CZM Rewind: Part One: Dr. Oz: Why 'America's Doctor' Is A Bastard
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Behind the Bastards
CZM Rewind: Part One: Dr. Oz: Why 'America's Doctor' Is A Bastard
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Behind the Bastards
CZM Rewind: Part One: Dr. Oz: Why 'America's Doctor' Is A Bastard
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Behind the Bastards
CZM Rewind: Part One: Dr. Oz: Why 'America's Doctor' Is A Bastard
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
Behind the Bastards
CZM Rewind: Part One: Dr. Oz: Why 'America's Doctor' Is A Bastard
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Behind the Bastards
CZM Rewind: Part One: Dr. Oz: Why 'America's Doctor' Is A Bastard
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Behind the Bastards
CZM Rewind: Part One: Dr. Oz: Why 'America's Doctor' Is A Bastard
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Behind the Bastards
CZM Rewind: Part One: Dr. Oz: Why 'America's Doctor' Is A Bastard
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Behind the Bastards
Part Two: The Throat-Slitting Evangelical Minister of Jamaica
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Behind the Bastards
Part Two: The Throat-Slitting Evangelical Minister of Jamaica
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Behind the Bastards
Part Two: The Throat-Slitting Evangelical Minister of Jamaica
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Behind the Bastards
Part Two: The Throat-Slitting Evangelical Minister of Jamaica
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Behind the Bastards
CZM Rewind: Part Two: Dr. Oz: Why 'America's Doctor' Is A Bastard
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Behind the Bastards
CZM Rewind: Part Two: Dr. Oz: Why 'America's Doctor' Is A Bastard
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
Behind the Bastards
CZM Rewind: Part Two: Dr. Oz: Why 'America's Doctor' Is A Bastard
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Behind the Bastards
CZM Rewind: Part Two: Dr. Oz: Why 'America's Doctor' Is A Bastard
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Behind the Bastards
CZM Rewind: Part Two: Dr. Oz: Why 'America's Doctor' Is A Bastard
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Behind the Bastards
Part Two: Carl Schmitt: The Mind Behind Modern Fascism
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Behind the Bastards
Part Two: Carl Schmitt: The Mind Behind Modern Fascism
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Behind the Bastards
Part Two: Carl Schmitt: The Mind Behind Modern Fascism
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Behind the Bastards
Part Two: Carl Schmitt: The Mind Behind Modern Fascism
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
Behind the Bastards
Part Two: Carl Schmitt: The Mind Behind Modern Fascism
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Behind the Bastards
Part Two: Carl Schmitt: The Mind Behind Modern Fascism
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Behind the Bastards
Part Two: Carl Schmitt: The Mind Behind Modern Fascism
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Behind the Bastards
Part Two: Carl Schmitt: The Mind Behind Modern Fascism
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Behind the Bastards
Part Two: Carl Schmitt: The Mind Behind Modern Fascism
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
It was Morgan's mentor, the woman who'd been like a second mother to her. Kelsey hadn't spoken to her since that awkward road trip visit years ago. Joanne said she needed to speak with Kelsey.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Factitious disorder is the official term for Munchausen syndrome, which is when someone fakes being sick for sympathy and attention. Joanne went on to explain.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Just as Kelsey was finally feeling in control of her life, she got a Facebook message out of the blue. It was from Joanne, Morgan's mentor. Joanne had uncovered something that she needed to share with Kelsey.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Joanne had met Morgan when Morgan was a college athlete. She'd taken Morgan in when she was going through a hard time with her family. And Joanne was there when Morgan broke her wrist for the first time. When Morgan came back from the hospital in a cast, she told Joanne the doctors had found bone cancer.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
This all happened before Kelsey ever met Morgan. Now, years later, Joanne was coming to Kelsey with proof that the story they'd both been told was a lie.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Joanne got medical records that told the real story. What was actually happening?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
It was a bombshell finding. Refusing care and blacklisting someone from a hospital is a very big deal.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
But according to the records Joanne had, Morgan didn't get psychiatric care. Instead, she went to summer camp.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
After Morgan and Kelsey met, Morgan didn't need Joanne anymore. She had a new caretaker. The tension Kelsey witnessed between Morgan and Joanne when she saw them the last time was real. Joanne was starting to question Morgan's story.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
But now, Joanne had the proof, and the two of them could begin piecing everything together.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. This is part two of Kelsey's story. If you haven't heard part one, you should go back and listen to that first. As a listener note, names and locations have been changed to protect privacy.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
A key component of Morgan pulling off this deception was keeping people isolated from each other. If Kelsey and Joanne were going to find the truth, they needed to connect with other people in Morgan's life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Kelsey went back to the very beginning, to the mutual friend who vouched for Morgan at camp.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Even parts of the story that Kelsey never questioned before now seemed like they could be lies. Starting with the letter Morgan said she received from the camp director, warning her that her eating disorder was interfering with her job performance.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Kelsey couldn't believe this fundamental part of their origin story could be fabricated. But the lie was confirmed when she discovered... She had never been hospitalized for an eating disorder.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Every new person Kelsey talked to had been told a different story.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
One lie in particular was extremely difficult for Kelsey to accept.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Kelsey tracked down Morgan's siblings. That's when she learned her family had no idea about Morgan's cancer. And when Morgan told the family she was dating a woman, everyone was accepting of her. So who sent the hate emails?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
So much of Kelsey's decision to support Morgan was because she had no family left. They'd all disowned her because she was gay. It was just lie on top of lie.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
At the time, all of the intensity felt very real to Kelsey. From the hate emails to Morgan's symptoms, the fatigue, the vomiting. How could Morgan fake all of that?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Almost two years into a marriage with Morgan, a seed of doubt had been planted in Kelsey's mind about her wife's terminal cancer diagnosis. It started when they were home with Kelsey's family for Christmas. Her mom had survived breast cancer. And something about Morgan's behavior wasn't adding up to her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Morgan didn't come up with the whole plan by herself. She had source material.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
The Fault in Our Stars is a book by John Green that was adapted into a film. It follows two teenagers with terminal cancer. Some of the exact lines from the movie were things Morgan had said to her, like claiming that her cancer scans, quote, lit up like a Christmas tree. Kelsey felt like her relationship had been scripted.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Now that Kelsey had broken open Morgan's lies, she wanted to make sure that there were no remaining ties with her. She discovered there was still one bank account open that they shared. It was an account Kelsey never knew about, but her name was on it. In order to close the account, she had to move the money out of it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
There was $20,000 in this account. all of Morgan's checking and savings.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
So she asked her friends and family what to do.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Kelsey had financially supported Morgan for years. When they separated, she took on $60,000 of Morgan's debt. Even after all of that, Kelsey decided to send the money back to Morgan. She was ready to wash her hands of the whole thing.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
After nearly five years, Kelsey was finally free of Morgan and her deception. Liberated from the lies, the financial and emotional burden that she endured, Today, Kelsey thinks back on the innocent woman at Girl Scout camp who walked right into Morgan's web.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Before Morgan, Kelsey had never even heard about abuse in a lesbian relationship.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
For a long time, Kelsey struggled to tell other people what she went through. Would they believe her? Would they judge her?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
So how did she not know? Well, the short answer is that she believed a woman she loved. The question used to bother her, but now she understands where it's coming from.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
When she does tell the story to other people, she notices her own shame.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
It's a relatable experience. All of us can point to a moment in our lives and cringe at our choices. Kelsey's come to realize shame doesn't work.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
She's had to reflect on her own part in the relationship, those key moments where she chose to stay with Morgan, even when she knew something wasn't right.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Kelsey was at a loss for what to do, but Morgan told her this was just part of the dying process. Her doctors told her to expect it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Kelsey has cultivated sympathy for the younger version of herself who made those choices. After all, she was acting out of love.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
There's a meta element to Kelsey's story. It was a podcast that helped Joanne and then Kelsey discover the truth.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Kelsey feels like it's come full circle. She's telling her own story now for someone else who needs to hear it. We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Morgan recovered from the hip injury and went back to physical activity.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's Betrayal, P-O-D at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
One day when Morgan was out on a walk, she fell again. And this time, she broke her elbow.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
The broken bones became a cycle. After her elbow, Morgan broke a rib. She had fallen.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
She came back with x-rays showing her broken rib. The doctors told her to rest. At the time, they lived in an apartment complex and they were friends with their downstairs neighbors. They usually went over every week for game night.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
There was a cement wall in the back of their apartment complex, and their neighbor had seen Morgan behaving strangely.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Her neighbor saw Morgan throwing herself against a cement wall.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Kelsey felt like her neighbors were accusing her of lying. And the neighbor's story didn't make any sense. If they saw Morgan falling, why wouldn't they help her?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Regardless of how Morgan had broken her rib, she was clearly injured again. Morgan's doctor recommended she stay physically active. But to Kelsey, this seemed unsafe.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Kelsey went on a walk around the block, alone, for the first time in a long time.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Between Morgan's cancer, her constant injuries, working to support them both, and her graduate school program, Kelsey couldn't take it anymore.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
That night, Kelsey made up her mind. She was going to transfer schools and move to a new city.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
She was in a frenzy. Before she was even accepted, she made plans to move. Everything in her body was telling her to get away from Morgan.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
At the time, she wasn't ready to share her doubts about Morgan's diagnosis with anyone else. I just felt like I didn't have enough evidence of that.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Still, her sister's words made her feel horrible. Because of this guilt, Kelsey stayed in touch with Morgan over the phone as much as she could, especially when right after her move, Kelsey needed emergency surgery for her appendix. Now the shoe was on the other foot and Kelsey needed Morgan's support.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
While Kelsey was in the hospital recovering, she received a strange text.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
The last time she had heard from Morgan's mom was before they'd gotten married. And that was over email. The emails where she called Kelsey the devil. They had never texted.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
This was at odds with everything Kelsey knew about this woman.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
The text from Morgan's mom opened a door to what might be a different reality. She decided not to tell Morgan about it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
After Kelsey recovered from surgery, she settled into her new city. She could finally feel the relief of being away from Morgan. The next time they talked, Kelsey asked for a divorce. And to her surprise, Morgan agreed.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
So she let Morgan handle the paperwork. It was clear to both of them that their relationship was over.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Kelsey felt intense guilt for leaving Morgan. She'd spent two years taking care of her. She'd seen the broken bones, the nausea, the exhaustion, all of the medications. But the more time Kelsey took for herself, the more she realized Morgan was hiding something. What it was, she didn't know for sure.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Kelsey tried to move on and put this relationship behind her. She wanted a clean slate.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Part of that reset was acting like the relationship with Morgan never happened.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
While Kelsey was in the middle of her emotional recovery, she got a red envelope in the mail.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Morgan had stopped paying her car payment, so it went to collections.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
The notices weren't slowing down and the debt was impacting Kelsey's credit.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Morgan had blocked her, and their divorce still wasn't finalized. So Kelsey decided to take matters into her own hands.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Morgan told Kelsey with confidence that she had filed for divorce. And Kelsey believed her, trusted her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
But she had lied. Kelsey's lawyer had the proof. The time Kelsey spent trying to put Morgan behind her now came with a price.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
Kelsey hadn't been able to reach Morgan. She had no idea where she was living. But she was clearly still alive, charging credit cards with Kelsey's name on them. So they hired a private investigator to track Morgan down and serve her the paperwork.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 26 - Kelsey Pt. 2
With the divorce decree in hand, Kelsey believed that Morgan and the chaos that came with her was now truly behind her. She wasn't avoiding it anymore.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
This woman had come to regret her actions and confessed to her husband. She gave her husband access to her computer and all her passwords. She was remorseful about the encounter and took responsibility for her part in it. The woman fully disclosed her actions to her husband and agreed to accompany him to Joel's house. However, as you heard, things didn't go as planned.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
They, of course, reported him. The woman's story was credible, and when police searched Joel's phone and computer, they found evidence supporting her story. And then they identified another woman Joel had met up with. He planned this one on his work phone. But it seemed like he forgot to delete a few messages from the exchange. This woman had also met Joel on FetLife.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Although she was cooperative, she seemed less eager to discuss the encounter. An internal affairs sergeant contacted her by phone.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
The woman and Joel had talked and texted for several weeks. He had attended a work conference in Denver. After talking online and on the phone, there was an opening to meet up on the way back from the conference. They met in the parking lot of a sporting goods store. But here was the information Internal Affairs was really after.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Had Joel used his police car to have sex with her, and was it while he was on duty?
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Hey guys, before we dive into the episode, we have exciting news. Betrayal is coming to Substack, which is an online community. We're calling our Substack Beyond Betrayal, a place where we dive deeper into the stories you hear on this show.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Despite Joel's adamant denials, it appeared he had, in fact, had sex in his police vehicle during work hours. CSPD conducted a full investigation. Internal Affairs even ordered a forensic analysis of the car's interior. They determined that the complaint was true. Joel had been having sex with women in his police car, in public, on company time.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
On April 11th, Joel was summoned to a meeting with his commander, and you'll hear that meeting in a later episode. And it was on that day that he could no longer hide the investigation from Caroline and their kids. In the early evening on April 11th, 2022, Joel was home with his family. Caroline and Nicole sat huddled together on the living room sofa. There were tears, accusations, and grief.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Their son was on speakerphone from college, alternating between anguish and disgust.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
He was only admitting to what the CSPD had already uncovered. Meanwhile, he told his family a tearful story about what happened.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Please consider joining our community to gain access to exclusive content, engage with me and subjects, as well as connect with others who have experienced betrayal. Just head to betrayal.substack, that's S-U-B-S-T-A-C-K, or just go to substack.com, search Beyond Betrayal, and hit subscribe.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Joel insisted that he only had been unfaithful with two people. But Caroline wasn't naive. She knew there had to be more.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
With Caroline's words still hanging in the air, Joel dropped another bombshell. Back in episode one, we learned he'd been tapped for one of the department's most sought-after roles, the public information officer. He'd be the face of the department, the media liaison, the voice. He'd already done the job temporarily. Then, out of nowhere, the offer vanished.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
But that had been a lie. There hadn't been an issue with the chief. The issue had been with Joel.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
While Joel served as temporary public information officer in 2016, he asked female reporters to use an encrypted app to communicate with him. And what he said there unnerved the reporters. When one reporter heard Joel Kern was going to be appointed the permanent public information officer in 2019, she was alarmed and wrote a letter. Here's how it began.
Betrayal: Season 4
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To the Colorado Springs Police Department, I'm writing to voice my concerns about naming Lieutenant Joel Kern the next PIO. To accuse anyone of inappropriate behavior is a risk. But to accuse an officer, especially one that controls which media members get information and how fast, could be career suicide. But that is what most emboldened me to voice my concerns now.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
This letter led to Joel Kern's first internal affairs investigation for sexually harassing female news reporters. The CSPB started by interviewing the reporter that wrote the letter.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Internal affairs asked the reporter about the app Joel asked her to download.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
The reporter knew of other women who felt the same way, but they either decided it was too risky to complain or felt it didn't rise to the level of needing to report. So without any other complaints, the investigation was relatively thin, and it looked like Joel was going to talk his way out of this one. We actually received the recording of Joel doing exactly that.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Oshetsky asked Joel to explain why he had urged reporters to download WhatsApp, an encrypted app that his supervisors couldn't monitor. This was a violation of department rules and Joel knew it.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
At first, Joel said it was for security. But the IA officer wasn't buying that.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Right as the conversation gets to the heart of the issue, his abuse of power, Joel pivots. He wells up with tears and changes the subject to what he's been going through recently.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 4, Episode 2. cat and mouse. In the last episode, we met Caroline Berega and learned about her husband, former Colorado Springs Police Lieutenant Joel Kern. On the outside, they were the perfect American family. Then on April 11, 2022, Joel detonated a bomb on his life, a bomb that would destroy his family.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Caroline had no idea her marriage was in a bad place in 2019. If you remember from episode one, Caroline shared Joel had a few breakdowns and ultimately started therapy. He had mentioned witnessing the carnage from fatal accident scenes and his fear about their kids starting to drive. But she'd been there for him, and they worked through it as a couple.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
As the interview continued, Joel read the room. He realized his best strategy would be to fall on the sword.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Joel had been on the record pleading for mercy three years before his official suspension, which was on April 11th, 2022. And on April 11th, the truth was finally being laid bare in their living room. Caroline and their daughter were on the couch, and their son was on speakerphone. They listened to Joel confess that he'd been lying and covering his tracks for years.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Caroline's entire world had come apart in a single afternoon. Immediately, she reached out to a close friend who would soon take on a greater role in her life.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Dawn normally made it policy not to represent her friends in a divorce, but she made an exception this time. Not so much for Caroline, but for the kids.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
April 11th is now called D-Day by Caroline and her kids. Here's Caroline and Joel's daughter, Nicole.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
The kids had to find a way to keep going. Their son wanted to come home from college, but Caroline wouldn't allow it.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
As for Caroline, she was on autopilot. Her friends came to her with some unsettling but important advice.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Caroline had asked Joel repeatedly, what else? What else have you done? She didn't want any more surprises. There had to be more than just two affairs. And this experience was confirmation that our instincts were dead on.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Nicole was at school when she noticed Caroline's location on their Family Life 360 app.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Nicole grabbed Joel's computer and started looking through it, logging onto various websites and reading his emails and text messages. They were there for the truth. All those long nights on duty, what else had Joel been up to? How far did his misconduct go?
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Nicole dialed in her older brother. She wanted him to hear everything. So it became the next family meeting. And then Nicole started recording on her phone. She wanted documentation. She and her mom were running on adrenaline.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Memorial Park was where Joel met the first woman to have sex in his cop car. At first, he denied he was working when they met up.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Everyone thought Joel was one of the good ones. An honorable cop. They had sacrificed so much for his career. She didn't recognize this man. In fact, she didn't recognize her life at all. Her life was now split into two. Two realities running parallel tracks. There were her memories. And then, there was everything Joel was doing behind her back. All of those late nights. The missed sports games.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Did something happen? And then I said, is daddy okay? Caroline was at a loss for words. They all lived with the fear that one day, Joel wouldn't come home from work. But Joel wasn't injured or killed in the line of duty. Still, nothing was okay. Caroline and Joel's son was a freshman in college, far from home.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
The holidays. Where was he? Her brain never went there. She didn't know what was real anymore. It was a sad and terrifying feeling.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
So was this finally the full picture? Were all of Joel's secrets out in the open? No, not even close. Here's Caroline and Joel's son.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
On the next episode of Betrayal, Caroline comes to the realization that Joel has been gaslighting her for years.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
And more revelations about his double life are exposed. Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season 4. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPOD at gmail.com. Also, please be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod and me, Andrea H. Gunning, for all Betrayal content, news, and updates.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
One way to support this series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Carrie Hartman. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producers are Caitlin Golden and Kristen Malkuri. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Story editing by Monique Laborde. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Editing by Tanner Robbins. And special thanks to Caroline and her family.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by My Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
The family met in the living room. Nicole and Caroline sat on the couch. Caroline and Joel's son was on speakerphone, and Joel stood in front of the fireplace. It was the most bizarre family meeting you could imagine. It felt like someone else's life. But no, it was happening in their home.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
What was going on? Well, to understand the events of April 11, 2022, we need to go back a few months prior, to February 5th. That day, a stranger showed up on Caroline and Joel's doorstep. Joel was home and answered the door. The whole interaction happened to be recorded. The sound isn't great, but you'll get the gist of it. And we've distorted the stranger's voice to protect his privacy.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
And with that, the couple took off and Joel was left alone to contemplate what just happened. This man managed to find his house and came right to his front door. Caroline had been out on a run and missed the whole confrontation by minutes. But Joel wasn't home alone. Nicole was in the basement, just doing her homework.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Joel carried on as if nothing happened. In fact, later that night, Joel and Caroline went to a party. He also never mentioned the confrontation to his family.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Okay. Caroline laughed it off in the moment. Looking back now, she sees that Joel's mind was somewhere else that night. But there was bad news for Joel. The stranger who came to his door made another stop that day. After he pulled out of Joel's driveway, he and his wife drove straight to the Colorado Springs Police Department, or CSPD, and filed an official complaint against Joel.
Betrayal: Season 4
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After all, an officer having sex in his police car while on duty would be a major professional violation. We filed an open records request so we could get those investigation records. Over the past year, we received hundreds of pages from CSPD, all relating to Joel Kern. We were also given actual audio recordings from the investigation. What you're about to hear is from one of those recordings.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
It's Joel's boss, Commander Strassner, being interviewed by Internal Affairs about Joel's alleged misconduct.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
Strassner was one of the first people Joel went to when he heard about the complaint.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
But was his rage really directed at the couple for making the complaint? Or was it directed at the Internal Affairs Department for taking the complaint seriously? Joel was an experienced, respected police lieutenant. This investigation threatened to take all that away.
Betrayal: Season 4
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A preliminary inquiry is like an initial check to see if there's any valid reason to suspect that the officer has done something wrong. Internal affairs can then decide to move forward with the investigation or close the matter.
Betrayal: Season 4
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Let's be clear, what the complaint was alleging was no ordinary affair. They were claiming police misconduct, an officer abusing his badge, having sex in a taxpayer-funded vehicle, on the public's time, and in public. Remember, Joel had worked in internal affairs years earlier. He understood how it operated. Ironically, he had worked in the department with Commander Strassner.
Betrayal: Season 4
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Strassner could tell that Joel was distraught. This was a serious matter. Someone could be filing a false report or impersonating him. Strassner assured Joel that if someone was victimizing him, they would be held accountable. To complete the investigation, the CSPD took Joel's police vehicle and his department-issued phone.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
This was recorded in February 2022. The investigation into Joel had been going on for two months. Two months where he knew his life was on the brink of collapse. Meanwhile, Caroline was completely in the dark. Joel didn't tell her about the man on their doorstep or the misconduct investigation.
Betrayal: Season 4
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It seemed like Joel thought that with his rank and years of service, he would be able to talk his way out of this. But the CSPD was taking it seriously. They went ahead and looked for any evidence that would support the couple's claim. And that included interviewing the man and his wife. Yes, the couple who showed up at Joel's door agreed to cooperate.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 2 — Cat and Mouse
So Internal Affairs sat with the woman Joel adamantly denied ever seeing before. Here are some of that interview.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Danielle was shaken and confused about her husband's confession to a one-time fling. But at the same time, Chad was doing everything he could to make it right. He confessed to it immediately. He wanted to get help. And most importantly, he was coming to her with sincere remorse.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
I was crying. He was saying he's sorry. Chad wanted to get help quickly. And so the next day, they did.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
We were given a name of a Christian counselor. They had multiple sessions with the counselor. Some sessions together as a couple and some separately. During a one-on-one meeting, the counselor gave Danielle some advice.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
The counselor said he'd seen a situation like this before, and he wanted Danielle to know that divorce was an option.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
This one infidelity, it felt small and manageable, especially compared to the years they'd spend together, getting to know each other, studying the Bible together and building a life. She really trusted Chad.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
They got a workbook on overcoming infidelity and even did the homework together. And they decided to lean on their faith to help them rebuild their relationship. Church became an even bigger part of their lives.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
We were very involved in our faith. Their marriage began looking up, especially when, a year later, they welcomed their first baby, a baby girl.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Danielle was on top of the world, so filled with love for her first daughter and her young family. It confirmed to her that she really did want to be a stay-at-home mom. She just felt whole.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
And your family is so cute. The difficulties she and Chad faced in the first year of marriage started to feel like they were in the rearview mirror.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
That baby would be the first of six.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Soon, Danielle's life became consumed by full-time child care. As their kids got older, she started homeschooling them. And she loved every minute of it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
With a growing family came more financial demands. But luckily, Chad's business was taking off. They even had the ability to upgrade their house.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Danielle didn't think it was the most practical choice, but the house made him happy. After they moved in, he tried to tell her how to run the house, but she stood her ground. She trusted him to handle the finances. So when it came to the housework, he needed to trust her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Hi Betrayal listeners, it's Andrea Gunning. We're off this week for Thanksgiving, but we'll be back next week with a brand new story. This week, we wanted to re-release a listener favorite, Danielle's story. We originally released it in two parts, but for this re-release, we're combining both parts for you so you can hear her full story all at once.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
And there were a lot of things that needed dusting. Chad was a collector. It was a quirk that Danielle accepted.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
They loved watching movies as a family. And after the kids went to bed, the couple would watch their favorite TV shows. Dexter and Breaking Bad. Every summer, Danielle, Chad, and their six kids would take family road trips.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
On these trips, they'd stay in huge rental homes. Chad always wanted the best of the best for the family. And they were very nice, very nice rented houses.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
One summer, about 15 years into their marriage, the family was on one of their regular road trips. And on this trip, their rental home was in a remote area.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
He was just gone. It was the early 2000s, so she didn't have a smartphone to look at his location. She started to worry that something terrible happened.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Around 3 a.m., the phone rang. It was Chad.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
One thing we love about Danielle's story is the ending, where she finds love again. And as you'll hear in the episode, she and her new husband got married at the Thanksgiving table. They said their vows between dinner and dessert, surrounded by all of their family. We will be back next week with a brand new episode.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
When Chad got back, he tried to explain it away.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
He blew it over. Whenever they got in a disagreement, this is what he'd tell her. His favorite phrase was, don't make a mountain out of a molehill.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
abandoning the family in a rental house in the middle of the night with no good explanation, it just didn't sit right with her. So Danielle called her mom. She was like, oh, wow, yeah, that is really weird. I'm glad you're okay. You know, I'm glad it all worked out, but that is really weird. Danielle was the full-time caretaker for six children under 15.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
She didn't have the energy to fight with her husband. I didn't confront him.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Plus, whenever she did question him, it always ended up coming back on her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
And in the meantime, for those celebrating Happy Thanksgiving, we are so grateful to all of you, our listeners. Thank you for everything. So without further ado, here's Danielle's story.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
When Danielle woke up on a family vacation to find her husband missing, he said he was picking up something for work at a Walmart in the middle of the night. She didn't quite buy the story, but she knew Chad was busier than ever, growing his financial advising firm. Around the same time, he decided to start making passive income by buying rental properties in town.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
It started with one small house, then two, then an apartment building in their hometown. He was so busy that he often worked from home at nights. He renovated their basement to become his home office. He even put in a king-size bed.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
It bothered her, him staying up late like this and sleeping in his office. It also bothered her that he locked the door. He said it was a security measure because he had important financial documents in there.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
He started coming to bed with her until she fell asleep. Then he would slip out and go back to work. She would only realize it when she woke up and found him gone.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
She never found any proof that her husband was cheating or having an affair. She didn't have the energy to start a fight with him. He insisted on sleeping in the basement. Eventually, she became resigned to the fact she couldn't change his mind. At that point in our marriage, I felt very distant from him.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
In this period where Chad was sleeping in the basement office and they were bickering, Danielle knew that their marriage needed to improve. So she sought help for herself.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
I wanted our marriage to be a really good marriage, and I didn't feel that it was a good marriage. She even suggested they try counseling again as a couple. But this time, Chad resisted.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
With each passing month, Chad spent more and more time out of the house, renovating the rental properties. And some nights, tenants would call with emergencies. There would be nights where he would say, oh, I got to go.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Despite their rocky few years, she still trusted him. She had to.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Plus, the rental properties added financial security to their lives. She believed that at the end of the day, he was working so hard in order to provide for the family. She often overheard him practicing conversations he needed to have for work.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
There was one big meeting in particular Chad was preparing for. It was with an older couple that went to their church, a couple that taught Sunday school. They had known Chad for nearly his whole life. And they were wealthy. Chad set up a meeting with them to pitch his financial advising services.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. One night in 2017, Danielle Oliver Chauvet was awoken by the FBI and state police. They were pointing guns at her, demanding to know where her husband was. That night, she learned the man she had spent 20 years with was hiding some very big secrets.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
In the end, they decided not to use him. He was dejected. He'd been counting on their business. After that meeting didn't go as planned, he started talking about selling his financial advising business. And instead, getting into the storage industry.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
And so we need to set up this LLC. He wanted Danielle to sign paperwork to help set up the business. If we have you as the president, then it's better for taxes because you're a woman. He asked her to go to the bank with him that day to get it set up. And there, out in public, she noticed that her husband looked disheveled.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Later that day, one of Danielle's kids came to her. He said that last night, he'd seen something strange in the driveway of their house.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
This was alarming because another one of her kids had confessed something bizarre.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Immediately, she tried to get in touch with Chad, but he wasn't answering his phone. After they went to the bank, he'd left the house to work on a rental property.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
If it sounds like Danielle is reading off of a piece of paper, it's because she is. She's reading from a written statement documenting this day. Nothing is as it seems.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
That night, Chad didn't come home for dinner. At the time, she assumed he'd fallen asleep at the rental property again. But she couldn't leave her six small children to go check on him. So around 11 p.m., after putting the kids to bed, she went to sleep herself.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
It was becoming very clear very quickly this was actually the state police and the FBI. There wasn't a mistake. They were looking for Chad. And they were incredibly serious.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
This is Danielle's first time telling her story. She's been reluctant to share what she went through because, as you'll hear in part two, her husband has other victims. She wants to be respectful of their experience and suffering. But this episode isn't about her husband's crimes.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Then the police asked her about the elderly couple that went to their church. The ones Chad wanted as clients. Why are you asking me questions about them? And where is my husband?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
It's about the 20-year marriage Danielle built with him, the ways he deceived and violated her, and the shocking betrayal that ended it all. It's also the story of being totally in the dark about your partner's double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Danielle Oliver Chauvet woke up in the middle of the night on February 8, 2017, to find her house swarmed with police and FBI agents.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
They thought I was involved. But a suspect in what? Danielle would soon find out. Chan Skipper, her husband of nearly 20 years and the father of their six children, hadn't come home that night. He said he'd been renovating one of their rental properties. The police were screaming questions at her about where Chad was, asking if she had any hiding places in the house.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
And most confusing of all, the police were asking about an elderly couple who taught Sunday school at their church. Why are you asking me questions about them? And where is my husband? The police wouldn't give her any information about what was happening or why they were at her house. But it was clear that whatever it was, it was urgent. The police took her in and began a long interrogation.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
We've known them for a long time. They were also asking questions about the family's finances. Questions Danielle just didn't have the answers to. I was shaking. I was just...
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
It didn't even dawn on me that it could be what it was. After hours of interrogation, the police let Danielle go. She went to a friend's house where her kids were waiting for her. She repeatedly tried to get in touch with Chad without any reply. Then, first thing the next morning, her phone rang. It was Chad's father.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Unbeknownst to anyone, that couple from their church had been missing for three days. We're not saying their names because Danielle wants to respect their privacy. Before this, they were friends, and Danielle believes that their story is their family's to tell, just like her story is hers to tell. So for this episode, she's going to call them... His victims.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
They were amazing people. The day before police raided Danielle's house, a woman had walked into a bank and asked for a cashier's check for $350,000 from her own savings account. Before the teller cut the check, the woman slipped her a note. She was being held for ransom. Her captor was waiting down the block with her husband in the trunk.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
If she didn't return to the car with the check, her kidnapper said he would kill her husband. She needed to walk out of that bank, check in hand. So they gave it to her and let her go. And as soon as she walked out of the door, the teller called the police. That call initiated a statewide search for the kidnapped couple and their captor. Immediately, it became the top story on the local news.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
The morning after the raid, Danielle was still in the dark about what was happening. She was reeling and desperately trying to get in touch with her husband. She didn't want to believe the wild theory that Chad could have kidnapped this elderly couple. That was until she saw his picture on the news.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
In that moment, she understood why the police woke her up in the middle of the night.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Danielle grew up in a happy, tight-knit family in California.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Over the following days and weeks, Danielle discovered the full extent of her husband's horrifying crimes. This is what she learned.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
He just sat in their kitchen for hours in the middle of the night before he finally entered the bedroom where the elderly couple was sleeping.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
After the police showed up at the bank, they called in the FBI, who traced the cashier's check and found the couple's names and address. When they searched their home, they discovered signs of forced entry, evidence of a deployed taser, and small drops of blood in the bedroom. But the house was eerily quiet. No one was home.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
In fact, by the time the police were alerted, no one had heard from the couple in three days.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
While Chad was committing this elaborate crime, Danielle was at home taking care of their kids, going about her business just as usual, completely unaware that her husband had violently kidnapped their family friends and was holding them for ransom. But where was Chad? And where was he holding the couple? Danielle had no idea.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
When the police were finally alerted, they knew time was of the essence. They relied on the FBI and state police to use all resources possible to find the missing couple. Ransom kidnapping cases like this often end in tragedy, especially considering the money was already exchanged. They were running out of time. With each passing hour, the search grew increasingly urgent.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Then the FBI got a tip about a car matching the description of the one seen leaving the bank with the kidnapped victims, a silver 1990 Chevy Caprice. But Danielle didn't know anything about a Chevy Caprice, so maybe they had the wrong guy. The police tracked the car down, but when they went to pull it over, the driver sped up. It was all over the local news.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Growing up, Danielle's parents were her role models. They had a respectful and happy marriage. It was an environment that nurtured her easygoing and trusting nature.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
The police approached the crashed vehicle and found that the driver was indeed Chad Skipper. He was injured but alive and arrested on the spot in connection with the kidnapping. Law enforcement was hoping to find the victims with Chad, alive in the trunk of his car, but no one else was with him. Instead, the police found clear plastic painter's tarps, a saw, duct tape, and a shovel.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Now that Chad was arrested, the only priority was finding the missing couple. There were still a few places the police hadn't searched, Chad's rental properties. After he was arrested, Chad gave police the address where he said the couple was being held.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
When police showed up, it looked like a construction zone. The surfaces were covered in sawdust and power tools. The doors were taken off their hinges, and there was a ladder in the middle of the living room. But it also looked like someone had been squatting there. There was trash everywhere, plates of half-eaten food, electronic wires and cables dangled from the outlets.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Police searched every room, but no one seemed to be in the house. Then they double-checked the bedroom, where they took a closer look at a computer monitor laying on the floor. It appeared to show a surveillance feed, six live feed images of a windowless room where two figures were lying on a mattress covered by blankets. On the wall next to them were hooks and shackles.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
There was a secret room somewhere in this house and Chad's victims were in there.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
She was raised with a strong sense of faith. That's still one of her core values.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Danielle's one of those rare people who loved high school. She was popular, and she had a longtime high school boyfriend named Billy.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
The night of Chad's arrest, police began searching one of his rental properties for a secret room, a dungeon, where he was holding two people captive. From what they could see on the surveillance feed, it was a windowless room somewhere in the house. The couple was lying motionless on a mattress. It wasn't clear if they were alive.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
But then one of the FBI agents moved a dresser in the closet and lifted up a piece of carpeting to reveal a locked steel hatch.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Police used bolt cutters to open the door. They found an eight-foot drop into a dark, windowless room, and they went in. That's where they discovered the couple, miraculously still alive. They had been tortured and chained. Chad said he had people watching their kids and grandkids. So if they tried to escape or get help, he would kill them.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
How else could it end? And judging by the contents of his car, it seemed like he meant it. This what if still haunts Danielle. Chad was charged with felony home invasion, aggravated kidnapping, and unlawful restraint. His bail was set at a million dollars.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Right before their senior year of high school, Billy proposed to her, and she said yes. But then... I actually had to move to Hawaii because my dad was working for the military, and we moved there. She ended up spending her senior year in Hawaii. Then she got accepted to college in Illinois. She was ready to start a new life there without her high school boyfriend.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Overnight, Danielle had to reckon with the fact that her husband of nearly two decades and the father of her children was capable of a violent crime. In addition to processing that shock, she didn't understand why. Was it all for the money? I didn't know that we were having financial trouble.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
To answer that question, Danielle started looking through Chad's basement office. There, she made a series of shocking discoveries. First, why he targeted the people he did.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
His fake financial business. She also found out that he was never actually a certified financial advisor or planner. So what did he do for a living? From what she gathered in his office, he charmed elderly people into letting him be their financial advisor, where he would skim from their accounts for years.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
In fact, after he was arrested, his own parents sued him for stealing over $400,000 while he claimed to serve as their financial advisor. But not only did he steal from his own parents, he also stole from his grandmother.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
He never confessed to this, but it added up for Danielle. What never made sense, though, was the construction of the dungeon. I found the plans and bills from it in his office. Chad had been hiring a contractor to build the dungeon piece by piece over the past two years.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
The shocking fact that he'd built a dungeon to hold the kidnapping victims kept the story in the headlines for months.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Danielle never slept another night in the big house that she and Chad had shared with their kids.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
She and her kids moved into her parents' home while she got her bearings. For the first few months after Chad's arrest, Danielle's dad would accompany her to the old house to continue excavating Chad's office. The police had already collected the evidence they needed, and she was left to clean up the rest.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
He had forged my name. She also found lies about herself, stories she'd never heard before.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Giving up her first love was hard, but she wanted to prioritize her independence. Danielle thrived in college. She loved her major, which was art, and she also loved going to Bible study on campus. That's where she met Chad.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Some of it was to different potential clients that he was going to have. And some things she discovered were just suspicious.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Just strange things that we never found an answer to. One of the most haunting things she found in his office was a set of life insurance policies on everyone in their family. Policies she never knew existed.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Danielle didn't want his explanations. She cooperated with the police and prosecutors and gave them any evidence they needed.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
He thought he was so smart. She sent him one letter in jail, where she said she would be praying for him, but needed to cut off communication. After that, she filed for divorce. But letters from Chad never stopped coming. Every few weeks, there'd be that distinctive envelope in their mailbox.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
She never replied, hoping his letters would finally stop coming. But one day, she got a letter that was different from the others.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
She felt comfortable around Chad. It was easy, like they'd known each other for years.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
While Chad sat in jail, Danielle was trying to rebuild her life. That's when she began to get strange letters in the mail. The return address just said the name Eloisa May. This is what the letters were about.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Finally, Chad, or Eloisa May, got to the point.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
From the start, Danielle was serious about Chad.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
The letters were four, five, six pages long, written in a tiny, neat handwriting that didn't look like Chad's at all. She assumed that either he was disguising his handwriting or got someone in the jail to write it for him while he dictated. Either way, the character Chad was putting on was so transparently manipulative.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
She suspects that he made the character Southern to try to pull on Danielle's heartstrings because her grandmother was from the South. A little bit later, he goes...
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Chad also used his extensive knowledge of the Bible to try and make Danielle question her decisions.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
The Eloisa May letters almost amused her, but they also felt like an insult. Did he really think she would fall for this? I think he had a very, very low opinion of me.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
She kept the Eloisa May letters to remind herself of just how delusional and scheming Chad really was. A year after his arrest, Chad pled guilty. But before he faced a sentencing hearing for the kidnapping, they had their divorce trial.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Danielle was awarded full custody, and shortly after, she attended her ex-husband's sentencing hearing. It started with the victim's statements. There were no dry eyes in that courtroom. They were amazing people. The judge was stunned by Chad's crime, especially the premeditation that had gone into building the dungeon and the torture the victims endured.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
The judge gave Chad the maximum sentence possible.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Surprised, but grateful. She sees how dangerous Chad is and doesn't want him anywhere near her or their children ever again. She says she forgives him, but forgiveness can include boundaries.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Danielle decided to stay in that small town of Erie, Illinois. Chad's victims still live there too. And Danielle has seen them around town. I have seen them.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
I really don't know. She's even thought about reaching out to apologize for the pain her husband caused and to grieve with them. I would love to talk to them directly.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Everything about him felt right. He was pursuing a degree in finance. He had dreams of starting his own business. And like her, he also wanted a big family. But most of all, she just loved being around him.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Some people in their community just didn't believe that Danielle was in the dark about her husband's double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Around town, she's noticed that people don't smile and wave as much as they used to.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
side look like i know who you are don't look at me don't interact with me she's had to reckon with blaming herself for not knowing who her husband actually was and what he was really doing all those nights he claimed to be in the basement working i couldn't have known he didn't show that part of himself to me all i know is
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
As part of her healing process, she's learned about people like Chad and the tactics they use. Tactics that felt very familiar.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
And my mind would just be like, I don't even know what's going on. These kinds of things helped her understand how he had subtly manipulated her for so long. But that didn't ease the self-blame or the sense that she couldn't trust anyone around her or even herself.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
You know, we would laugh about lots of things. I was just attracted to the way I felt around him. While they were dating, he went above and beyond to woo her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Or is this just his presentation of who he says he is? For Danielle, trusting the wrong person, building a life with them left her all alone and a single parent.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
She found work as an online English tutor. And she built a business writing and selling knitting patterns.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
After her divorce, she decided that she was done with romantic relationships.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
But then she saw a post on Facebook from her high school boyfriend, Billy, the one who proposed to her 30 years ago. They'd since drifted apart and hadn't talked in nearly a decade. But in his post, she saw that his fiance had recently passed away. So she reached out to lend support.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
I think she knew before I knew that I was starting to fall in love again. Danielle and Billy planned a FaceTime call where they would see each other for the first time in years.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
It's not who she is, but Chad said she deserved the best. And it was flattering. After about two years of dating, he made a particularly grand gesture. He bought her an expensive dress, rented a limousine, and took them to a dinner theater.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
After a few months of dating again, they got married, surrounded by their families at the Thanksgiving table.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Wouldn't have it any other way. We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story? Knowing that you're not alone is so helpful.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Additional editing support from Nico Arruca. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
She said yes. He brought her out of her comfort zone, and it felt like a fairy tale. I was 100%.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Chad was involved in every step of the wedding planning, which Danielle loved. And he also wanted to go to pre-marriage counseling to discuss their expectations.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
We did know that I wanted to be a stay-at-home mom, so that was talked about. Danielle had been managing her own money in her early 20s. And although she was good at it, it was a relief to be marrying someone who had expertise in finance. It made her feel safe. And so they agreed that while she would manage the household, Chad would manage the money.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
She was happy with this arrangement. She's a do-it-yourself kind of person. It's an attitude that's well-suited to raising kids and running the household.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
After they got married, the couple decided to move to Chad's hometown in Illinois. To call it a small town is an understatement. The entire population could fit in one high school football stadium. Well, the town we live in, Erie, is only 1,900. It's small. Small but perfectly suited to the life that they were building, a life that centered around family and community.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Plus, Chad had grown up there, so he knew nearly everyone in town. And everyone seemed to adore him. In fact, he'd been the high school valedictorian. Once they moved back to Erie, the couple also joined Chad's church, the church he grew up in. We were really involved with that church, and his parents went to that church too, and we led a Sunday school together as a couple.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
Their life was falling into place. A happy marriage, a strong foundation based on shared values, a community that supported them, and a church they felt welcomed by. And Chad was making progress in his career. He began the certification process to become a financial advisor. He wanted to start his own firm.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
She was proud of him. And for the time being, she kept working too.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
But conceiving their first baby didn't happen as quickly as Danielle hoped. The months turned into a year. And during that year, Chad made a shocking confession.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: RE-RELEASE: Donielle Pt. 1 & Pt. 2
She asked him point blank if he was gay. He said no, he wasn't. She wanted more details about what actually happened, who it was with, and what they did.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Something that we're constantly confronting in true crime is having to tell these hyperbolic versions of true crime stories when in reality, the more relatable and important ones are the ones that are kind of in the everyday. I remember when we were covering Ashley Litton's case in Riverton, Utah for Betrayal Season 2.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
He reached out to ICAC, which is an Internet Crimes Against Children task force that every state has. And I remember one of the task force members asked, why are you covering this case? Like, I deal with, you know, perpetrators that are 10 times worse than Jason Linton. Why this one? And my response was, I don't want the hyperbolic version of
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
CSAM case you know I want to meet people in a very average everyday story because that's actually what's happening and so I feel like that's the same for a lot of these mothers who are if they're on the news it's like this monster of a mother that did this and it's like you know we have to hear about the extremes instead of leaning into the reality of what's happening yeah
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
I think one of the things that I also felt was really relatable, and the circumstances are so different, but just knowing your sister's story and having to go in front of the judge in family court, like you're dealing with family court and criminal court are two separate things. And the... issues that I've seen a lot of the women that I deal with on betrayal having to navigate the criminal side.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And once that's over and, you know, the father of their children are released, then they're dealing with family court, either in their divorce or child support or dealing with visitation or It is a whole other ball of wax where parents have a ton of rights, rightfully so, but they're in situations where kids are at risk. It's a really scary system because they are two separate entities.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Hi, it's Andrea Gunning. Last week, we shared Andrea Dunlop's story. On this week's episode, Andrea and I sit down for a conversation about true crime podcasting. We get into what this work means for us and how we approach these stories. We hope you enjoy it. Andrea, thank you so much for joining me. I'm a listener and also a huge fan of Nobody Should Believe Me, which is your show.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Yeah. In the case of Stacey Rutherford and Tyler from season three of Betrayal, I think the courts got it right. So for people that don't know, Stacey was married to a man named Justin and he was a doctor in Redding, Pennsylvania. She had two children in a previous marriage and then met Justin and they got married. They had two kids of their own.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And he was, by all accounts, a great husband, an incredible doctor, beloved by his community. Turns out that he was abusing Stacy's son from her first marriage, his stepson, since he was 11. And... Tyler didn't disclose until he was, I want to say, 17. So a long time. Yeah.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And, you know, Justin also tried to hire a hitman while he was in prison to murder Tyler so that he wouldn't testify in court, which is what we cover in season three of Betrayal. And what the judge did is not only did he get He'll be basically in jail for the rest of his life. I don't want to misquote what his sentencing was.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
But he isn't allowed to speak to his biological children or have any contact with the family until he's done his probation. Basically, for the rest of his life. And so I remember talking to Stacey and Tyler and them feeling like really complicated emotions because they deeply love Justin. Like the person that they knew as a human being, like Tyler loved his stepdad.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
But then there was the monster, the abuser. They were two different people to him. And that was a scenario where the court really contemplated a lifetime of abuse and grooming and narcissistic behavior and just got it and knocked it out of the park. And I was like, heck, yeah, like this is a Pennsylvania. Like, I was really proud. So, yeah, like sometimes we talk about things getting wrong.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Like that was a scenario where I think the courts got it right. Yeah.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And we just shared your story on Betrayal Weekly. And I'm just so glad our two shows are collaborating because I think that Munchausen by proxy, which is what you cover in your show, shares a lot in common with betrayal. Earlier, we were joking that this conversation is kind of like the Andrea Andrea True Crime Summit, but that's really what it feels like.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
We're working on a case for season four of Betrayal about this woman out of Colorado Springs. She was with her husband for 20 years. She lived like a typical American life. She thought that she was just basically living like the suburban dream. And I won't give all the details because we air in May. But things unravel and the family is torn apart.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And she has to look back on 20 years and basically... readjust her sense of reality because he shares things, discloses things that completely alters core memories in her life where she's living and thinks one thing is happening, where there's another almost like parallel universe where he's operating and she has to hold both realities at the same time.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
So I'm hoping we can really compare notes about what it's like working in this space.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
She often says perception is my reality and that really is true. And I remember because I had listened to your first season so long ago, I was like, let me listen to this again. Like, you know, Hope's family and then your family. I was thinking about you guys and like you having to look back. Like once things became clearer to you or things were coming into focus.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
How are you looking back on that time and how painful was it to try to merge what you thought you were experiencing and then the reality that you now learn? It's just it feels like those memories start to hold on to you in a way that you're like, I don't even know what to do.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Right. And now you're estranged. You guys haven't talked in over a decade.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
You know, I often joke that I'm a recovering TV executive. And so I hail from the TV space, but I work for a company called Glass Entertainment Group, and we specialize in reality TV and documentaries. And for about seven and a half, eight years, I was overseeing our business department. So I was the executive in charge of production.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Like, I'm a twin. And so, you know, my relationship with my sister is... Next to having my own children, that's the most important relationship in my life always will be. I entered the world with her. I did every fundamental first with her. I could imagine losing my sister or not being able to share in critical moments. It's a profound loss, that relationship with a sister. It is.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Yeah. Again, it's the complexity of the human experience. That's kind of like our driving force at Glass Podcast and what we do with Betrayal. You guys have that in your DNA, too. Like, I've heard it, and it's been evident in every season that you guys have done.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
I got to give Hulu and ABC so much credit. I mean, this is like a big platform and some of these stories are really hard to tell. And it's time where people like afraid to go there. I'm like really impressed. I mean, season three is tough, but they saw a landscape. I mean, this past year, the Menendez brothers were all over the place.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Absolutely. And for them to see that people are actually open to hearing about that and discussing that and just really sitting with that and taking Tyler and Stacey's story and pursuing that for the Hulu documentary is really exciting because it's only going to help dismantle the stigma around this issue. And I'm really proud to work with partners like that. I truly am.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
So I did all the boring things in TV, which is like the budget, the financing, like all the hard stuff. And my colleague Ben and I were constantly working through legal deals with our development department. And we were seeing great stories getting passed by TV executives and networks.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
It's all it all works, works together. So your book that just came out, this is your first book. Like intro to nonfiction, right? Or do I have that wrong?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
We just got like straight in the deep end, which I love. I could talk to you for hours. Andrea, thank you so much for coming on our show and sharing your story with us. Thanks for listening. Next week, we're sharing the first episode in Andrea's latest season of Nobody Should Believe Me. It's about Sophie Hartman, a mother who adopted two girls from Zambia.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
But the story takes a tragic turn when one of her daughters becomes terribly ill. So stay tuned, and we'll be back next week with that episode. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And one story that came across our desk, we were working with Kim Goldman, who is the sister of Ron Goldman, who was murdered by OJ Simpson. And we were trying to sell something in TV with her, but a lot of TV networks weren't interested in the project unless OJ was involved or OJ was attached or we could guarantee an interview with OJ. And this was back when OJ was still living.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
I think he had just gotten out of prison and was living in Vegas at the time. But my colleagues and I really believe that there was a story here even without O.J. 's voice. So we decided to make it a podcast. And instead of telling the O.J. Simpson story, we told the story of people who lived it. And so that's how we got started in the podcast space.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
It's all kind of related. So Jen Faison is the subject of season one in her marriage and how the marriage unraveled. But she works in television. She's a television executive producer. So we kind of are in the same universe. And Jen had heard Confronting O.J. Simpson and reached out to her agent and her agent reached out to me and my colleague, Ben, for an initial conversation.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
But the universe has an interesting way of working, because at this time I was getting out of a relationship. I had moved out of my boyfriend's house. I had discovered a lot of deception, not to the magnitude that Jen had. And I was kind of recovering from understanding, like, why was I in this relationship? Why was I ignoring a lot of signs?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Was I ignoring it or was it like, you know, all of these questions that were coming to the surface. So it was like I was meeting Jen at the perfect time. I couldn't relate to the magnitude of what Jen was going through. But I knew like as it was like, I don't even want to say as a woman, as a woman, but as a human being, I understood the pain when she pitched me her story.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
I understood her anger and her confusion. And I found like this emotional access. And I thought if we can maybe do something with that, people will relate and maybe heal. And so just that relatability and that timing of it just so happened to work out.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Yeah. And that was my worry producing There and Gone, which came out this past summer in 2024. And I have to give iHeart a lot of credit because we pitched them this story and there wasn't an ending and we couldn't guarantee that we would find or solve this case. And so you're taking a lot of risk.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And then the partnerships that you make with distributors are also taking a lot of risk for what's the payoff? You know, what's the audience going to leave thinking? Are they going to walk away feeling satisfied? And, you know, these are people like we're studying and we're exploring stories of people and their loss and their trauma and their grief.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And so we're not always going to get a payoff that makes sense to everybody. You know, I like telling stories that really show the complexity of the human experience. And I think There and Gone is an example of that. Yeah.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Sure. It's the story of Richard Patron and Danielle Imbo. 20 years ago, two 30-somethings just literally vanished off of South Street in Philadelphia, which is basically like the Bourbon Street of Philadelphia, the busiest place for nightlife. They were seen leaving a bar and then never seen again. And then until this day, no one knows what happened. Was it an accident? Was it murder for hire?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
And so I remember this because I was, I think, a senior in high school. And it was terrifying because one of the victims, his parents have a bakery that I grew up going to. And both of their families look so much like mine in different ways. They do Sunday dinner. I come from an Italian family. We do Sunday dinner. You know, they gamble on Sunday over football bets.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Like I'm wearing my Eagles jersey. Like this feels like this could be my own cousin this happened to. So it was very personal to me. And so it was just this loss that kind of
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
reverberated throughout our entire community and continues because how do two people in their mid-30s just vanish just literally into thin air and when we were exploring doing the story I thought the families would be very interested but we would struggle with law enforcement
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
But then I soon realized that the FBI really needed our help because the FBI knows that the more coverage they can get of this case, more people will be able to like call in and feel like, let me just do my part. Let me 20 years later, I'm just going to do it. I'm just going to make the phone call. I'm going to say what I know and be done with it. And.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
I live in this city and there are parts of this city where this crime isn't a big question mark. There are parts of this city and neighborhoods in this city where people know exactly what happened or they feel like it's a fact. They communicate it like it's a fact. I know who did it. I know why it's done. Isn't that crazy? Yeah.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Like how a whole neighborhood in one city, there's like this understood rumor of what happened to two random people that have no connection. And that was the neighborhood in which I lived. So... To me, it was like, I just want to help these families. You know, we didn't solve the crime. Yet. But there was enough people that actually wrote into the FBI for them to reopen and assign new agents.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
So I feel like I did my job.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
Well, the first thing that just to interject, I think one of the biggest things that I feel like we both, you know, Betrayal, trauma and deception is one thing. Your show covers factitious disorder. And although they're very different, there's so many commonalities between people who live through or have.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
a relationship with Munchausens and Munchausens by proxy, and people who experience deception and betrayal. The topics we cover on betrayal are extreme, but sadly, they're not uncommon. And in season three, we really focus on male sexual abuse. And we learn that one in six men have experienced this issue. But the really scary reality is
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 3 - Andrea Dunlop in Conversation
It actually is probably more, but it just goes unreported because of the stigma around it. And I just feel like These are two taboo issues, you know, Munchausen syndrome by proxy. And to take that seriously and talk about it to help dismantle that stigma, it's such a large hurdle.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
From her first date with Neil, she knew he wasn't a keeper. She had no idea he could be this cruel. Whoa, this is not normal.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
But Neil wasn't in shock, and he wasn't in denial. Tina didn't know it at the time, but this was something far more insidious.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
When Tina Maya told the man she'd been casually dating she was pregnant, he became a different person. Neil Lawman started sending her callous voice messages about how the baby could not possibly be his. He even accused Tina of harassment. Regardless of his disturbing reaction, Tina wanted to have the baby on her own. She was sure of that.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
So after his vitriolic messages, she drew a boundary with Neil.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
No worries. As far as Tina was concerned, Neil was out of the picture. And I went on. Obviously, I had a lot to deal with. She blocked him and moved forward with the rest of her pregnancy. It wouldn't be her first time as a single mom. Tina's friends and family rallied around her to provide support. And she needed it, especially when the baby was born.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Her newborn baby, Josephine, was in critical condition. She had a severe lung infection. The doctor wanted to prepare for a blood transfusion.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
But half wasn't good enough, especially considering Neal's history of cancer.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Instead of reaching out to Neal, she decided to call one of his friends, the only friend of his she knew how to reach.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
And then while Tina was lying in her hospital bed, she got a text from Neil.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
But Neil refused. He was not interested in helping the baby. He was more concerned with lashing out at Tina.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Up until this moment, she'd planned to raise the baby completely on her own without asking Neil for a single penny. But after he showed his true colors, she decided, You know what?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Bye-bye. She figured the courts could handle Neil and she and her family could move on. Luckily, her newborn daughter recovered without needing a blood transfusion. After a week of being in hospital, we were both able to go home. When she got home with Josephine, or Fifi as she calls her, their house was full of joy. Her son, who was eight, became a doting big brother.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Now with two children to support, Tina had to return to work just two weeks later.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
One day while she was on her way to work, she decided to call the UK's Child Support Agency to get the paperwork started for child support. After they looked into Tina's claim, the agency contacted her with surprising news about Neil.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
meaning that Neil was on unemployment. But that didn't add up to Tina. She met him at a tech conference. He owned his own company. She'd met his coworkers. She tried to explain this to the child support agency.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
But the government didn't have records of his businesses or income. And that wasn't all.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Neil had three other children? What about his story of being infertile? Tina went into investigation mode, searching for business and personal records of Neil Lawman. I went all the way back to one from a number of years ago. In Neal's records, she found the name of a woman, someone who'd changed her last name to Lawman. So I was like, okay, that must be his ex-wife.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
If she is an ex-wife, it might be his current wife. Maybe this was the woman he'd been married to in the States, but Tina didn't really know what to believe anymore.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Looking at the photos of two little girls, clearly related to Neil, made Tina's head spin. At the very least, she knew she'd found the right person.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Tina Maya is a successful e-commerce consultant in the UK. In 2016, a casual romantic fling turned her entire world upside down. It showed her a dark side of humanity. One that she'd never seen before.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
When Tina applied for child support, she discovered a trove of information about her daughter's biological father, Neil Lawman. First, that he was on unemployment and claimed he was unable to make child support payments. He wasn't the high-flying tech guy he'd pretended to be. Second, that he already owed child support for three other children.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
The whole story about him being infertile from prostate cancer was a complete lie, an elaborate deception from night one. When Tina began looking into Neil's background, she found the name of his ex-wife. We're going to call her Wendy. Wendy.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
And his ex-wife had a story to tell. She'd been with him for 10 years. They had two daughters together. Then one day, Neil walked out, leaving her with a significant amount of debt.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Neil had claimed that his wife cheated on him, that she left him because he was infertile. He said she was still back in America. But it turns out, Wendy very much lived in the UK. In fact, she lived in the same neighborhood as Tina. Now, Tina could safely assume everything he'd ever told her was a lie.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Tina and Wendy agreed to meet for dinner, to talk in person.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Right away, Tina was struck by how familiar Wendy seemed. The two women had the same energy, independent, confident, and outgoing. Wendy had some important information for Tina, things she needed to know. You see, after Neil left her, Wendy found out about two more children, two sons he had fathered before her daughters were born.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Her story is also one of community. Along the way, she found a group of other women who'd been deceived and betrayed by the same man. Tina's become their spokesperson. And the spokesperson for a much larger story. Tina was raised to be opinionated and strong-willed.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Tina stared at Wendy, processing the reality that her daughter was one of five. How many more kids were out there? And what would that mean for her daughter, for their daughters? It was a reality Wendy had barely begun to confront herself.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Since Neil left Wendy, he'd barely spoken to their two young daughters.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Tina and Wendy ordered another round of martinis and talked until the restaurant closed. Before they said goodbye, Tina got an idea. Let's do something a little bit funny.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Neil started sending unhinged emails to Tina, to Wendy, even to his ex-father-in-law.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Allegedly, he'd been implicated in a multi-million dollar fraud scheme. And there was more. In total, he had 11 offenses and five convictions. But he never served any prison time. Like Teflon, nothing sticks. After Tina reported Neil to the police, she waited for an update. She'd given them all the information she had on him. And the officers said they'd call her when they made an arrest.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Again, that's just a theory. If the police weren't going to give her answers or justice, she was going to find them herself. So she reached out to Wendy. And together, they came up with another idea.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
As the group grew, Neil tried to get it taken down, but Facebook declared it legitimate public interest. Through this page, they discovered that Neil was allegedly running quite a few schemes at the same time. There were lots of posts about his alleged shady business dealings. When it came to starting new businesses, the posts suggested that Neil had an M.O. He would...
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
And then there were all the women he'd ghosted, women he'd met online and started serious, long-distance relationships with. There was a diplomat he'd had an online relationship with for years. When this woman finally booked a trip to meet him in person, he said he would pick her up at the airport. But when she landed, he wasn't there. She tried to call him, and she realized he blocked her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
These stories were bizarre. Was he doing it for the money? To resell the expensive hotel room bookings and concert tickets? Or was it all just one big game to him? Whatever the case, in every story, Neal didn't stick around. Instead, his victims were left to deal with the consequences of his actions. And some were never the same. Like one woman.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
When she graduated from university, she traveled and spent years living abroad.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
In her Facebook messages, she said that she woke up in a hotel room disoriented. She alleged that she'd been drugged and raped. She didn't go to the police because she felt shamed. Multiple women shared stories like this one. Their Facebook posts alleged that Neal was not just a con artist, but a violent man.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
As the group grew, Tina continued to wonder, did anyone out there have a story like hers? And then another mother came along. Her son was now an adult, but she knew Neil was the father.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Their families knew each other. The boys never interacted, but they easily could have.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Through the group, Tina learned more about Neil's backstory, and it was revealing.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Like his mom, Neil also had his first child in his teens.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
After that, it seemed like this became a pattern of his. And this wasn't just about having unprotected sex or fathering many kids. He was intentionally deceiving women into believing he was infertile. These women who got pregnant would be tied to Neil forever.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
So how many children does Neil Lawman actually have? Well, four have been confirmed by DNA, but there are many women who believe Neil is the father of their children.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
So the scheme clearly didn't end with Tina. The 13 mothers have become a kind of group. They've bonded. Some of them are even friends.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
In the 90s and 2000s, Tina was early to adopt the Internet's potential, especially for commerce and online retail. She made a career working in digital sales. That ended up taking her to New York City, where she met her husband. By her mid-30s, they welcomed a son, Leo.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
But of course, Neal's victims aren't just the women. Some members of their Facebook group are Neal's now adult children. Many of them haven't been confirmed by DNA, but one of them tried to find Neal. He told Tina about the experience.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Hearing these stories, Tina felt even more certain that justice needed to be served. And in talking to a police officer, she heard something that piqued her interest. This could be considered rape by deception. Rape by deception is a situation in which a perpetrator deceives someone in order to get sexual consent.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
The victim wouldn't have consented if not for a crucial lie, like one around the perpetrator's STD or fertility status. Rape by deception isn't a specific charge. It's a way of arguing and giving context to a situation as rape, even if it falls outside the typical definition of rape under the law. And it's been used before in cases like Tina's.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
For Tina, there's still a lot of work to be done around this issue. In the meantime, she's had to move forward with her life and focus on her kids.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Tina has learned to navigate some tough questions with care. For instance, her daughter has asked... Is my dad a nice person?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Tina and her two children have a strong little family unit. But now that's not their entire family because Tina and Wendy decided to tell their kids about each other.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Tina does worry about her daughter and how the situation will impact her as she grows up.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story? Tina has a really specific reason. She wants to warn anyone who's just met Neil Lawman.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
When Tina was offered a prestigious job back in the UK, she separated from her husband and made the leap. Now her daily life was focused on work and raising her son. For Tina, being a single mom to one child felt manageable. She loved that dynamic.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
When her son started grade school, Tina had more nights to herself.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
In 2016, she attended a tech conference in London. That day, she must have met and exchanged contact info with at least 30 people, one of them being Neil Lawman.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Think party culture and spray tans. Tina's interaction with Neil was nothing special, just a friendly exchange of business cards. She assumed it was a professional connection. But soon, Neil began texting her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
I said, you know what? Why not? It was perfect timing, so they met at a neighborhood pub.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
She talked about her son and her ex-husband in America, and Neil shared details about his past.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
The reason his wife had left was because Neil couldn't have kids.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
It was a touchy subject. Neil seemed deeply hurt by his ex-wife. Tina felt for him.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
And before long, they found themselves in another bar, making jokes and inching closer together. She liked him. But she wanted to keep it casual.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
They kissed goodnight, and Neil said he wanted to see her again. He was often in her area because he owned and managed a few properties there. He promised to text the next time he was in her neighborhood. And he did. So after their first night out together... He continued to text me. And then he would come over once a week or so. Tina couldn't remember the last time she had a fling like this.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
It had to have been well before her marriage. It was just what she needed. It made her feel sexy and confident.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Tina was 41, and after his testicular cancer treatments, Neil couldn't have kids. Without the pill or using regular condoms, they settled on another method.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Over the next few months, they saw each other whenever they could. And Tina got to know more about him.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
But when Tina tried to talk about the neighborhood where the school's located… Neil seemed confused, like he didn't know the area. But it had been decades since Neil was in school, so Tina didn't think much of it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
She was ready to move on. So she stopped responding promptly to his texts. Kind of wanted to phase it out anyway. So, yeah, it got a little cold.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
She was pregnant at 41. Even though it was unexpected and unplanned, she felt immediately connected to this child.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Even still, it was a massive shock because the baby had to be Neil's.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
But Neil was infertile. So this baby was a medical miracle. Tina turned to her friend who suggested maybe Neil would be happy about the baby.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Miracle baby or not, Tina knew that she and Neil didn't have a future together. Now she had to break up with him and tell him the news. Wow, okay. This is going to be awkward then. She took a few days to think and finally sent Neil a message. So I said, I need to talk to you.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
She didn't know how he would react, but she certainly wasn't expecting what happened next.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 30 - Tina
As the messages and calls kept coming, it got more personal.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
After weeks of waiting, Angelique was losing faith that Cassandra would ever be held responsible. But then she got the call. Law enforcement was finally able to make an arrest. Cassandra was facing multiple charges.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
She admitted that she'd planned to murder Angelique in order to steal her baby. Cassandra was now behind bars, and she would stay there until there was a trial.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
The news brought a lot of relief. Angelique could breathe a little easier, but the arrest didn't take away the trauma.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
She recently saw a video that was taken when her son was one. He was learning how to walk for the first time. And I say, oh, my gosh, it's his first steps.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
In the wake of everything, she wasn't living. She was surviving.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
When everything went down, Angelique had to fight for her case to be taken seriously by the cops. And after Cassandra was arrested, she didn't hear anything from law enforcement or prosecutors for 12 months.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
That was until she got a call from the district attorney's office.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
The full confession police got out of Cassandra wouldn't be admissible in court.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
But Angelique knew there was physical evidence from the fire.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
The DA's office informed Angelique of Cassandra's defense strategy. She was going to plead insanity.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
And in that moment, Angelique almost felt bad for her. The prosecutor said that Angelique could decide.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
She slept on it and realized that without the confession, the prosecution's hands were tied.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
The state offered eight years in a psychiatric hospital.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
At the sentencing hearing, Angelique was able to read a victim impact statement.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Almost immediately, it became a media circus.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Everyone wanted to run with the story. Angelique became reduced to a headline. It felt like something was being taken from her, and not on her terms.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
A few years after sentencing, a local journalist came over to interview Angelique about the story. And he was the first one to ask her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
But at the time, Angelique wasn't ready to hear it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
It wasn't until eight years later when Cassandra was released from the psychiatric hospital that Angelique finally revisited the case.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
She started with Cassandra's taped confession. And on it, she learned Cassandra's story, what Cassandra was really doing the night the fire started.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Her plan was to kill Angelique with a butcher knife and steal her baby. That's what she was preparing to do when she sat Angelique on her bed in the dark and counted to three.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
When Angelique stood up, the initial plan fell apart. So Cassandra moved on to plan B.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Cassandra thought it would be easier to kill Angelique if she were unconscious. The whole thing was like a horror movie. It's actually diabolical.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
It turns out the plan wasn't entirely hers, or at least that's what Cassandra stated in her confession.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. When Angelique Robledo was 17, she found out she was pregnant. She decided that this baby would be her second chance. She got clean from drugs and made a new friend, another pregnant teenager named Cassandra.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
And in this gang, Cassandra confessed that she worked for one man in particular.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Cassandra claimed that she was part of a gang operation. And her boss had a plan to sell Angelique's baby.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
This was all news to Angelique. These tapes suggested an alternate motivation for why Cassandra did what she did. And it didn't match up with what Angelique heard from prosecutors back when they offered a plea deal. At the time, her understanding was that Cassandra was mentally ill and thought the baby was hers. But in the confession...
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
And there was something else in Cassandra's confession. Another thing Angelique heard that didn't square with what the prosecutors told her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
She was a decorated veteran, a Marine who saved her comrades, a hero.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
This is a story all about trust and about a woman named Sarah Kavanaugh.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Listen to Deep Cover, The Truth About Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
But one day, a casual hangout with Cassandra took a sinister turn. Angelique had a gut feeling that something was wrong, but she didn't know what it was. After a fire started, Cassandra was taken away by paramedics, and Angelique was left to explain the situation to her parents and law enforcement. She suspected that Cassandra started the fire and that the proof was in her friend's bag.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Prosecutors had told Angelique that Cassandra's confession wasn't admissible in court because no one had read Cassandra her Miranda rights. While reviewing the case file years later, Angelique discovered that wasn't true. They had read her her Miranda rights.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
This supposed procedural error was the reason why Angelique was okay with the plea deal. So why did the prosecutors tell her this story? Well, Angelique has a theory.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
If Cassandra was telling the truth, maybe she could help law enforcement catch higher ups in her gang. Angelique thought back to all the phone calls Cassandra had taken, the ones in Spanish, and she'd taken a call in the middle of the attempted murder. Angelique had believed she was talking with Edwin, her husband. So was Edwin the mastermind? The gang leader?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
The cops met with Edwin, and they were very surprised to hear... He states, yeah, she's someone I dated.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Edwin was a real guy that Cassandra had dated, but he hadn't talked to her in years. So who was actually on the other end of the phone? In her confession, Cassandra does name someone besides Edwin. But the cops couldn't find a record of this other guy. And that's where the police file ends. For Angelique, it felt like... They gave up.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
She's had to make peace with the fact that she might never know who Cassandra was working with. She might never get the full story.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
She's come to accept that the police report may just be another version of the story. And can she even trust Cassandra's taped confession? After all, Cassandra was clearly unwell. By the time Angelique heard the tapes, Cassandra had served her entire sentence. Angelique felt like reopening the case against Cassandra would be a dead end.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
For her, reopening the case would only bring back bad memories. The damage was already done.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
She recently drove past the house where the crime happened for the first time in years. And instead of feeling overwhelmed and triggered, she felt a powerful calm.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Josh, her son's father, has been a constant in her life and in her healing.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
They dated throughout their first few years as parents.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Angelique's also become an advocate for preventing fetal abduction.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Fetal abduction is incredibly rare. There have been less than 20 documented cases in the U.S. in the last decade. And of those cases, very few of the victims survived.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
She's also done something astounding. She wanted to help others grow their own families. So she became a surrogate.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why are you telling your story?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
She backed away from the bag, trembling. The cops stepped in.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
The items painted a dark picture of what Cassandra might have been planning that night. And Angelique realized the gifts she'd been given weren't for her at all.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Listen to Deep Cover The Truth About Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
It all finally clicked for Angelique. Cassandra had been planning to stab her and run away with her baby.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
The rest of that night was a blur. She was in shock. She remembers the cops taping off the scene.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
what had been a potential arson, was now an attempted murder investigation. Later that night, a police investigator came to speak with Angelique.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
They hadn't been smoking weed. Angelique knew what happened. She just couldn't prove it to the cops.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
She was afraid Cassandra might come back and follow through with the plan.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
She didn't feel like they were taking her seriously. And now Cassandra was out of the hospital roaming free. Angelique decided to take matters into her own hands.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
After the fire, Cassandra was brought to the hospital because she was having contractions. Angelique had a friend who worked at that hospital at the time, a friend who was willing to break the rules to help Angelique get some answers. And what her friend saw in Cassandra's medical record was a bombshell.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Up until that moment, Angelique fully believed her friend was pregnant. In fact, that had been the basis of their entire relationship. But now she had confirmation that it was all a lie. She felt like this information was important to her case.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
For the cops to move forward, Angelique would need to get Cassandra on the record contradicting her original statement to police.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
So they asked Angelique to do a recorded phone call.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Anjali got what she needed, but it was anticlimactic. The police basically thanked her and sent her on her way. But almost immediately... From that moment, I had went into labor. She went straight to the hospital. Because Cassandra still hadn't been arrested, the hospital took precautions to keep Angelique safe.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
After all, someone had wanted to steal her baby and brought a butcher knife to do it. So she was adamant about not having a C-section.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
The stress had led to high blood pressure, and now Angelique had preeclampsia. It was a high-risk birth.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Finally, her son was born. He was healthy and in her arms.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
She hoped that after he was born, she'd find some relief.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Listen to Deep Cover The Truth About Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
While she was in the hospital, her family worked to renovate her bedroom, to repaint it and make it livable again. But after she was discharged, she struggled to relax at home.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Josh, her son's father, stepped up to help. He wanted to be a safe place for Angelique. So every night, he stayed with her on the couch next to their new baby.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
But even with him by her side, she couldn't let her guard down.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
When Josh or her family tried to talk to her about how she was doing, Angelique shut down.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
She wanted Cassandra arrested, but the cops weren't sharing any information about the case.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
She didn't even feel safe taking a walk around her neighborhood.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
She was a decorated veteran, a Marine who saved her comrades, a hero.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
This is a story all about trust and about a woman named Sarah Kavanaugh.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Listen to Deep Cover The Truth About Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 22 - Angelique Pt. 2
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 6 - Molly’s Listener Essay
I'm going to hand it over to our producer, Mo, who talked with Molly for this episode. Can you just tell me a little bit about what the process of writing this was like for you?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 6 - Molly’s Listener Essay
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 6 - Molly’s Listener Essay
Thank you so much for listening. And thank you to the incredible listeners who wrote in to share their essays on the theme of resilience. We were so moved by your submissions that we're bringing you more of these listener essays. And our next theme will be the moment everything changed. Set the scene. Take us back to that memory.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 6 - Molly’s Listener Essay
Describe the feelings and thoughts you had in the moment when everything changed for you. The limit is a thousand words. If your story stands out, it might be featured in a bonus episode. Please save your submission as a PDF and email it to betrayalpod at gmail.com. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 6 - Molly’s Listener Essay
That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 6 - Molly’s Listener Essay
The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 6 - Molly’s Listener Essay
Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 6 - Molly’s Listener Essay
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 6 - Molly’s Listener Essay
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 6 - Molly’s Listener Essay
Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning. A few weeks ago, we put a call out for your listener essays. We wanted to hear from you about resilience after a devastating betrayal. And we received so many incredible essay submissions. For this episode, we're going to feature the second of two essays that really moved me. It's written and read by a listener named Molly.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 6 - Molly’s Listener Essay
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 6 - Molly’s Listener Essay
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 6 - Molly’s Listener Essay
When we come back, our producer talks with Molly about her writing process. And stay tuned until the end of the episode when we'll be sharing our next listener essay theme. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 6 - Molly’s Listener Essay
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free. And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 6 - Molly’s Listener Essay
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Between the stress of school and the drama with Morgan's parents, Kelsey's connection with Morgan was fading.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
The next day, Kelsey came home from school to find Morgan on their couch in tears. There was something she needed to tell Kelsey.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Just when Kelsey thought her relationship with Morgan was over, Morgan came to her with devastating news. She had bone cancer, and she was dying. Kelsey was no stranger to cancer. She grew up watching her mother's breast cancer go into remission and return again. It was a horrible cycle. And to think another person she loved was going through this was hard to fathom.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
I don't think I got it at first. Morgan had known about the diagnosis all along, but she was just telling her now that the cancer had returned when she only had three months to live.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
So she sat down at the kitchen table with her laptop and a notepad to talk about what this would mean. Luckily, Morgan had some answers.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
During the day, Kelsey would attend class for her senior year of college, and Morgan would spend the day at the hospital.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Christmas was a few weeks away. With Morgan's family out of the picture, they decided to celebrate with a family friend. an older woman named Joanne, who'd been a mentor to Morgan for years.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
It was a relief to talk with someone else who'd been involved with Morgan's care. She was a great resource. For Christmas, Morgan and Kelsey got each other something special. We got rings for our wedding. rings for their wedding. Morgan wanted to get married to Kelsey. It was a legal and financial decision.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Morgan wanted the money to be donated to a library foundation. Kelsey was honored to help facilitate one of her final wishes.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Kelsey felt a responsibility to make sure every day was a good day.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
But the days were still difficult, especially as Morgan's health worsened.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
I'd be like, oh my God, your hair. This only furthered Kelsey's resolve to support Morgan. She offered again to go to the hospital with her, to be by her side as she got treatment. Morgan said no. She didn't want to be a burden.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
After all, it was Kelsey's job that kept them afloat financially. As the weeks went on, the treatment seemed to be slowing the progression of her cancer, and Morgan hit the three-month mark.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
This is Kelsey's story of building her life around someone else's lies. Lies that consumed Kelsey's 20s, derailed her early career, and destroyed her sense of trust. For many years, she tried to hide from the deception she experienced. But now, she's ready to tell her story. As a listener note, names and locations have been changed to protect privacy.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
For the past three months, Kelsey had been bracing herself for the end, putting her all into caring for Morgan. It had been exhausting.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
In her last semester, she earned B's and C's, and her dreams of being valedictorian were dashed. Instead of giving the valedictorian speech, she applied to be an honorary student speaker at commencement.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
After she graduated, they finally had the time to plan a small wedding ceremony. At the time, same-sex marriage wasn't legal in their state, so they had to travel.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Kelsey drove them to California, with Morgan asleep in the passenger seat. Along the way, they camped in national parks.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
The day before the ceremony, they both sat down to write their vows.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
They delivered their vows and signed the papers in Sequoia National Park.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Being officially married was a relief. It was the final thing Morgan wanted to do before she passed away.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
When she was a little girl, Kelsey's mom told her the origin story of their family unit. It was a survival story.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
In less than a year, Kelsey and Morgan went from being 21-year-olds at camp to being a married couple, handling a terminal disease. Now they were committed to each other, for however much time Morgan had left. Kelsey had been accepted into a master's program across the country. Neither of them expected Morgan to be alive for that next chapter.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Morgan's successful treatment meant she had more time. She could take a break from treatment. But her cancer was still deemed terminal. No one knew how long she really had left, not even her doctors.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Kelsey didn't know what this meant for her plans to start graduate school. She barely got through her last semester.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Her mom and the three girls started anew in a small West Coast town. But the fear of her dad was always looming in the background.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
She was worried about juggling her master's program and supporting Morgan at the same time. She didn't even know if she could handle that. But she decided.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
They rented a U-Haul and began the cross-country drive. Along the way, they made a pit stop to see Joanne, Morgan's mentor.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
It was clear something had come between Joanne and Morgan. Joanne said she wanted to talk to Kelsey in private, but they just couldn't find the right moment.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
When they arrived in their new city, they had to face the reality of living alone. Kelsey found a job in hospitality while she started her master's degree. But Morgan was too sick to work.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Kelsey was only 22 and she was the sole provider. Morgan found new doctors. And now that they were married, Kelsey was paying for more of Morgan's care.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
But she found it hard to have open conversations with Morgan about it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
It had been a year since Morgan shared her diagnosis. Even though Kelsey was now paying for Morgan's care, she still wasn't privy to the details of it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Nearly everyone in their new town was Mormon and their family wasn't. Their dad was Cuban. So Kelsey and her sisters stood out in a sea of blonde hair and blue eyes.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
But Morgan didn't want to talk about it. She wanted to do everything alone. And that worried Kelsey.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
The lack of information was becoming a real problem for Kelsey. It became a wedge in their relationship.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Without any answers, she was getting frustrated. She felt like she couldn't help Morgan if she didn't have all the information. That year, they spent Christmas with Kelsey's family.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
This was the second time they thought it was their last Christmas together. And it was the first time Kelsey's mom was getting to really spend time with Morgan.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Still, Kelsey's mom insisted that something didn't add up. she was starting to feel skeptical about Morgan's story.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Before this moment, Kelsey had never doubted Morgan's diagnosis. For nearly two years, her entire life revolved around Morgan's health.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Thank you so much for having me. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Her mom's survival story had another chapter. For Kelsey's entire childhood, her mom battled breast cancer.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
As a kid, Kelsey didn't know the details. She just knew her mom was exhausted and was always going to the hospital.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Over the summer, she started going to Girl Scout Camp. There, she was allowed to just be a kid.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
The women who ran the camp were Kelsey's idols. She wanted to be just like them.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
As she got older and entered high school, she started dreaming about broadening her horizons.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Kelsey and her high school girlfriend kept their relationship a secret. It was in the mid-2000s, and they were in a mostly Mormon community.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
So she set her sights on going to college in a place where she could be out and be herself. She was accepted to her first choice and made the leap.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
But her family's finances took an unexpected turn. So after the first year, Kelsey had to transfer to a new university, one that she'd be paying for herself.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
She worked to put herself through college and she started working summers as a counselor at her old Girl Scout camp.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
By her third summer, she earned an executive leadership role at the camp, helping coordinate all the younger counselors.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Arriving at camp was a much-anticipated reunion, where she saw all of her closest friends again.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
One of the new counselors immediately caught Kelsey's attention. Her name was Morgan.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
She kept to herself and seemed guarded. I found her to be really mysterious.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Even though Morgan was only 20 years old, she'd been through a lot.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Morgan confided in her. Forming close bonds was a hallmark of the camp experience. They would be spending every day together for the next three months.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
At camp, there were no cell phones, no distractions from the outside world. And in this bubble, Kelsey knew she was developing feelings for Morgan. But she was in a leadership role. And then there was this.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
So they continued on with a supercharged friendship. It was a connection Morgan needed. At home, she'd been struggling with an eating disorder.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
That kind of structure and vigilance around food was really triggering for Morgan. In fact, it was having an impact on her job performance.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
The idea of losing Morgan at camp was upsetting. Kelsey felt a responsibility to help as both a friend and a camp executive.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
About halfway through the summer, they took a day off together and drove to Kelsey's hometown.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Near the end of camp, Morgan's parents came to town. They were devout Mormons. And on that visit, Morgan wanted to come out to them. Kelsey drove her to meet them, to be there for emotional support.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
Her parents' rejection brought the two of them even closer.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
There was so much at stake, and Morgan was now left on her own. They made their relationship official. And when camp ended, Morgan couldn't go home. So they decided to move in together.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
It was Kelsey's last year of college. At first, living with Morgan was a novelty. Even mundane tasks were exciting.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
But right when the semester began picking up steam, Kelsey started receiving emails from Morgan's family.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
They thought Kelsey brainwashed their daughter, and they wanted her to leave Morgan alone.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 25 - Kelsey Pt. 1
But Morgan was fixated. All she wanted to do was talk about her parents with Kelsey.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Joel wanted to see her that night, but she had plans. It was Caroline's turn to cook Sunday dinner for her family. To her surprise, he was down to show up at her parents' and bravely dine with her mom, dad, and two older sisters.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Joel and Caroline were skipping a lot of steps. This would typically be date 10, not date 1. But it felt right having Joel there beside her. And from that moment on... We became inseparable.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
But when they were together, it was like the beginning all over again. Caroline and Joel made the most of the gorgeous landscape in Colorado.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
They had met early in the summer of 1998. And in the fall, Caroline had planned to go to graduate school a few hours away in Boulder. But Joel wasn't about to let her get away.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Debra is, as Caroline says, her ride or die. They met back in their 20s at work, and they even have a nickname for each other.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Debra knew Joel from the beginning of their relationship.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Caroline loved him. Her friends and family had grown to love him.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
The engagement was simple, but planning the wedding wouldn't be. Caroline was Catholic, but Joel wasn't. That meant they couldn't get married in her church. But then, Joel did something extraordinary that surprised Caroline. Joel said, I'll convert for you.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Once Joel was confirmed as part of the Catholic Church, he and Caroline prepared for the sacrament of marriage.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Three years after they met, on July 27, 2001, Caroline and Joel got married.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
She took the test while Joel was sleeping, but she wanted to share the news with him right away.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Once the shock wore off, they were both really looking forward to having a baby.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Caroline threw herself into preparing for motherhood. And Joel began to focus on providing for his growing family.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
During her pregnancy, the couple made an agreement that Joel's career as a cop would be the centerpiece of their life. It was a sacrifice for the betterment of their family and for the entire community.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Caroline experienced some lonely days. But the couple was working for the future.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
As for Caroline's career, it was more flexible. She isn't an officer herself. She asked us not to disclose her exact job title. We'll just say she works in the justice system and collaborates with law enforcement. So Caroline had the utmost respect for the work her husband did.
Betrayal: Season 4
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Two years after their son was born, Caroline and Joel welcomed a baby girl. Our daughter was born in 2005. And then they saw their sacrifices start to pay off.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Despite the difficult hours, Joel embraced fatherhood. As the kids grew, Joel and Caroline brought them along for all their outdoor adventures. They even got an RV.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
to exclusive content, engage with me and subjects, as well as connect with others who have experienced betrayal. Just head to betrayal.substack.com That's S-U-B-S-T-A-C-K. Or just go to Substack.com, search Beyond Betrayal, and hit subscribe.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
From those early days, Joel encouraged their son to get involved in his community. Here's their son.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
They even traveled to Florida for a scouting trip.
Betrayal: Season 4
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And Joel found ways to bond with their daughter, Nicole.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Both kids enjoyed the benefits of their dad being a cop because they had access to exciting experiences.
Betrayal: Season 4
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The car was a symbol of their dad's power and authority, of his values, his service. Despite Joel working nights, their family thrived. Both kids were passionate about sports and became competitive athletes. And they were focused, hardworking students.
Betrayal: Season 4
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After eight years working as a sergeant, Joel was tapped for an important assignment.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Internal Affairs is a department that investigates complaints and allegations of misconduct against its own officers. The new job meant Joel would work regular business hours and be home at night.
Betrayal: Season 4
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She craved that companionship. When Joel moved to internal affairs, he began sharing more about his work with Caroline. Every industry has its good and bad operators, but some of what Joel revealed was disturbing.
Betrayal: Season 4
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It was eye-opening to see how discipline worked at CSPD, what conduct could get you fired, and how honesty could save your job, even for very serious offenses. Caroline was proud that Joel was well-liked and respected. Here's a retired CSPD officer. He asked that we call him Dan.
Betrayal: Season 4
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His family beamed whenever he was honored for his work, especially his daughter. I was very proud that my dad was a police officer. She remained proud, even as the public's relationship with law enforcement faced a watershed moment.
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These were the George Floyd protests that were shaking the nation to its core. The mountain town of Colorado Springs was no exception. Dan was working for the department then and recalls the experience.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Caroline and Joel wanted their community to know that while they supported the police, they did not accept the kind of policing that led to George Floyd's death.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Even though she supported the protests, she was scared for her husband's safety. He had to work the front lines.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
That's what they all thought, that he was one of the good ones. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Caroline knew Joel was one of the good ones. She had seen it with her own eyes. Joel was her rock during one of the hardest moments of her life.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
We have these two great kids. The same mother who once said, don't tell me you're marrying a cop, had come to trust him, to love him.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Joel stepped in again when Caroline was faced with an uncomfortable decision.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Caroline asked for discretion here, but I will say this. The property had a lot of dark history in her family.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
You don't need to worry about it. He stuck to his word and took charge of the rental property. And take note, the rental property is important because it's going to come back later in Caroline's story. Actually, almost every anecdote you've heard up until this point will too. Soon after the loss of Caroline's mother, another exciting career opportunity came Joel's way.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
The CSPD public information officer was retiring, and Joel was offered the position on a temporary basis. This role meant he'd be the face of the department, handling media relations and serving as the spokesperson. Here he is, giving an interview to a journalist.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 4, Episode 1. One of the good ones. Hi, everyone. I'm excited to be back for Season 4 of Betrayal. It's just incredible how much this community has grown, and I wanted to take a moment to give you my most heartfelt thank you for supporting this series, as well as our weekly series. No matter how you found betrayal, I'm really happy you're here.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Joel loved being the CSPD spokesperson. And he loved the recognition.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Their home office was almost a shrine to Joel's accomplishments, with newspaper clippings and plaques. He even jokingly referred to it as the love me room. They were all proud of him. Plus, the job meant he was on the day shift, and that meant more time together.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Once the temporary role as public information officer ended, Joel tried to get as much experience across multiple departments as he could. It was the best path to leadership. Eventually, his hard work was recognized, and before long, he was up for the rank of lieutenant. This was a promotion, but it came with a drawback. He would be back on the grueling night shift, at least for the time being.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Then, a year later in 2018, Joel was offered the role of public information officer. But this time, it would be permanent.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Eventually, Joel revealed something that shook Caroline. He'd been grappling with reoccurring memories of a childhood trauma. It was something she'd known about. She didn't realize it was interfering with his work. Joel explained how the stress had built up, leading to an explosive confrontation with the chief. With Caroline's unwavering support, he agreed to start therapy.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Caroline found Joel a counselor experienced with first responders and PTSD. The PIO job, it was a loss, but Joel's mental health was the priority. And later the same year, Joel was given another daytime assignment, overseeing special events for the department. The job had its perks. He organized the motorcade with the Secret Service whenever the president or vice president came to town.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
And for Caroline, it meant more time together as a family and more quality time with her husband. And for a while, Joel seemed well. Then one night they attended one of their son's sporting events together. Joel was distracted and despondent.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Caroline was concerned. He was obviously in distress. Their son just turned 16 and started driving.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Police officers are the first responders to a lot of disturbing situations. So it wasn't a surprise that Joel experienced this type of PTSD. These moments were tough, but they were infrequent. Caroline looked for the joy in their lives and made it a point to celebrate all the good they had.
Betrayal: Season 4
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They wanted to celebrate big with a family beach vacation. Here's Caroline and Joel's son.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Now, for the next several weeks, we will be focusing on one story. A story that we learned about only because a woman named Caroline and her daughter learned about us. By the way, some names have been changed to protect privacy.
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Joel and Caroline were devising a plan of their own for their anniversary.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Caroline shared some photos with me. She looks stunning in a long white dress with a low back. In one shot, her son walks beside her on the beach. And her daughter holds flowers. The kids look so proud of their parents.
Betrayal: Season 4
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The ceremony left their family and friends feeling an afterglow long past the trip. But less than a year later, in March of 22, Joel's mental health took another turn for the worse. Caroline was terrified. She had never seen him so upset or vulnerable.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
The job must have been weighing on him for decades, and it was all coming out now. The couple had heart-to-hearts. Joel opened up about his parents, details he'd never shared before. They started talking about the future, about what life could look like if he changed careers. Caroline didn't care what he did. She just wanted him healthy, happy.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Then on Sunday, April 10th, Joel did something no one saw coming. It rocked his family in the best way. Our daughter wanted to go to church.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
She thinks about that moment often. Because it was the last time she understood her world.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
It's an eight hour drive. Nicole's mom, Caroline Borrego, was the driver.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
This season on Betrayal, the good guy Joel appeared to be was all a facade.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season 4. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPOD at gmail.com. Also, please be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod and me, Andrea H. Gunning, for all Betrayal content, news, and updates. One way to support this series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Please rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Carrie Hartman.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producers are Caitlin Golden and Kristen Malkuri. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Story editing by Monique Laborde. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Editing by Tanner Robbins. Voice acting by Caitlin Golden. And special thanks to Caroline and her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Music library provided by My Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
That thought stuck with Caroline, enough to motivate her to send us an email. And before we knew it, my producer Carrie and I found ourselves in Colorado Springs, where we met Caroline Berega at her home. Caroline is a mother of two who works in law enforcement. Her house is beautiful with vaulted ceilings in a cozy suburb of the Springs. If one thing stuck out to me, this was a forever home.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
She was warm, welcoming, and not alone. Little did we know we were guests of a special night Caroline does with the people closest to her. It's called Supper Club, and they do it every Sunday night. They drink wine, crack jokes, and unwind before the start of another week. These friends never miss a Supper Club.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
were complete strangers, and the night could not have felt more comfortable.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
She showed us trophies and ribbons from her kids' sports careers. There were instruments and elementary school art projects. And there were family photos smiling at us in frames all over the house. This was a happy home of a happy family. But when we looked a little closer, we realized that many of the photos weren't of Caroline's family at all.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
They were actually stock photos, the kind you get when you buy a frame at the store. It became overwhelmingly clear Caroline had deleted parts of her life. Actually, just one part of her life. The most painful one. Caroline had removed all traces of her husband, her now ex-husband, Joel Kern.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Joel was a decorated member of the Colorado Springs Police Department. He had taken an oath to protect and serve the community.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
But on April 11th, 2022, Caroline discovered that the only person Joel was serving was himself.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Season four is about truth. It's the foundation upon which trust is built. So what happens when someone manipulates the truth? What happens when a person or an institution believes that they are above the truth? For Caroline, her husband's lies completely undermined her sense of reality. It's been a hard few years for Caroline and her family.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Before we sat down with her, she looked to her daughter for strength.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
And that's all the permission I needed. Nicole always felt a deep kinship with her father, Joel Kern.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
And for Joel, it wasn't just a job. It was part of his identity. During Nicole's childhood, he rose up the ranks in the Colorado Springs Police Department. And for most of her life, he worked unusual hours.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Substation was a new word for me. It's another word for precinct. Caroline made sure not to skip celebrations just because Joel worked at night. She brought the kids over and they celebrated birthdays and holidays at the substation. So Joel wouldn't miss out and the kids would have their dad at milestone events.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
When he had to miss the kids' sports games or recitals, it was for good reason. Their dad was on the side of justice, integrity. And this didn't happen by accident. Caroline and Joel designed their life around his career. In fact, the day she first laid eyes on Joel, he was in uniform.
Betrayal: Season 4
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It was 1998 and Caroline was fresh out of college, starting her first full-time job as a domestic violence advocate.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
When Caroline says lineup, she's talking about the briefing officers receive at the start of their shift. It's when the sergeant gives out updates and assignments.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
there was something happening between them. Caroline didn't know it then, but that night would alter the trajectory of her life. And since we're going to be talking a lot about the Colorado Springs Police Department, I'll refer to it as the CSPD from now on.
Betrayal: Season 4
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The ride along was routine, but it was a long night. When they returned to the substation, Caroline was ready to get home.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: EP 1 — One of the Good Ones
Caroline was playing it cool, but he gave her his number anyway.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Which I think she was getting evicted from and electricity had been shut off and it was just like in a bad state. Andrea's mom alleged that... She saw some paperwork for hospital admission that was on the date that she had said she was in the hospital. And she had been seen for dehydration. There was nothing else in the paperwork.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
She and I started talking and she told me, well, Megan told me that her fiance made it back in time and that he was the one who took her to the hospital and that they said goodbye to the babies and took pictures. You know, detailed, like really detailed versions. And so obviously like those are two completely separate stories.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
He had witnessed some behavior with my sister and his son that had alarmed him and that had crossed the line for him and broke up with her. And then the next day, she came home from work with a positive pregnancy test. Now, my sister worked for an OBGYN clinic and then she brought home ultrasounds, which I had seen also ultrasound photos.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And she had torn a piece of it off and he found the piece and it had someone else's name on it. And she gave him this explanation of like, oh, well, I just did the scan on myself and I had to enter someone else's name so that it would end. I mean, it's just like completely nonsense quality.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
The most likely outcome is that she had never been pregnant, you know, and this was not ever a real pregnancy. So that was a big deal because then this was a family crisis.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I think I was in such shock and scared, honestly. Like, it's a scary thing to go down this road and start thinking about, like, what do you mean it wasn't real? Like, I just saw her. She looked pregnant. I felt baby's kick. Like, what are you talking about?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I knew she was capable of being deceptive. I had seen that. But this was just such a deeper level, and it was so dramatic. Thinking about her sitting on the phone, just like in her apartment, narrating this whole thing to me was really, really disturbing.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
My dad was obviously upset, but I think he was much more straightforward. You know, he's British, like stiff upper lip and sort of like, we're just going to like fix it. And like we got to just get in there and just get Megan shaped up, you know, kind of thing. So I think that was kind of his approach.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
She had this incredible ability to just sort of like turn the page. It was just kind of like this fever dream, right? Like you're just like, oh, that like weird thing happened. But it's just like, okay, we're all just gonna like put it in the corner. And maybe if we never talk about it again, like maybe we don't have to like think too hard about it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
She had stopped talking to me for months. So it's like, I think we all knew by that point that we will lose her if we try and hold her accountable. Like, if we push her on this pregnancy thing, she's going to stop talking to us.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And we thought he was such a standup guy. And then she just seemed better. And then again, there was just this like pretty quick, like turning of the page. You know, she was still at her job. She's got this boyfriend and then they got engaged. And then it was like, they had this like very big, you know, fancy wedding. And we were just like, okay, like a new chapter.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
The night before the wedding, we stayed at this beautiful hotel, the Fairmont in Seattle, and her friend brought like a photo album. And we were like looking at all these photos from growing up with each other and just like laughing. And then, you know, the next day we were like all getting ready in the bridal suite together. And it was just like such a happy moment.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And I remember thinking, oh, my sister is back. Like this is the version of her that I love and the version of her that I remember. She's so happy and look at her. Everything's going to be fine now. And, like, that is my last happy memory with Megan. Because it was not very long after that she got pregnant.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
There was a tech in there, and I saw the images of it, and I remember thinking, like, But is she really pregnant? Andrea was guarded. And then on New Year's Eve, again, New Year's Eve, so anniversary, I had stayed home. My parents went to their house in California. So they were out of town again. And she went into labor early.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
So I went to the hospital immediately. Again, it was sort of this thing of like, okay, well, I'm here, I'm seeing it. It is really happening. But I remember until I saw the baby, I was like, I don't know. Like, I don't, like, I cannot be sure.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And you know, when he left the hospital, his prognosis was good.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
He immediately started having all these issues and he was having issues around his feeding and developmental milestones. And my sister was talking about it a lot. And it was definitely during this period that like something really started to feel like off, off and like scary off.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
You know, I have a really vivid memory of being at my parents' house with Megan and my nephew and just looking at her and having this really strong feeling of like she's not there.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
He wasn't gaining weight and he was diagnosed failure to thrive. He had a nasal feeding tube, which goes, you know, nasal gastric, which goes in through the nose down to the stomach.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
My sister was telling us that the next sort of step in this intervention was to have a surgically implanted feeding tube, a gastric tube, in his stomach.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
By this point, my parents and I had been discussing our concerns.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I really think of this as like this moment that like sort of split my life in half. Like there's a very, very distinct sort of before and after. And I remember thinking like, oh, my family, as I know it, is over.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
For the most part, she would not let people come to the doctor with her, but for some reason, she let my mom come to his gastroenterology appointment.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
At the appointment... They discussed this feeding tube intervention and the doctor said, no, we want to hold off on that for now. Let's wait and see. Let's try and keep him on the nasal tube. And obviously this surgical intervention is not unserious.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And she said, yeah, the doctor said, you know, they're really pushing me. They're really saying he needs this surgery. And I knew it was a lie. Why would you want your baby to have a surgery if they didn't need it?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
What? I was like, it's the middle of the day. Like, why is my dad not in the office? And just being like, this is very weird. And then they came in and they sat down with me. And they said, we talked to our family doctor about these concerns. And she said that this sounds like Munchausen by proxy.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
It really felt like this moment that like sort of split my life in half. I remember thinking like, oh, my family, like as I know it, is over.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
My mom took her to the dermatologist and found out that she was actually shaving it off and lying about it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I mean, there's just so much had piled up. And then we had seen her tell this just like very direct lie about the gastric tube.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
You have to reframe a person once you realize that they're capable of harming a child. That's a vulnerable little person involved. And I loved that baby.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I mean, it's just like, it didn't seem like there was another option. And my mom, very brave of her, called the gastroenterologist at the appointment she'd been in. Went in and she told him our concerns. She told him the history of Megan lying about her own stuff, of the pregnancy, fake pregnancy. And he said, well, do you feel like it's time for an intervention? And she said, yes.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And she was imagining like, okay, we're all going to get together in like a hospital conference room and talk about it and try and get, you know, Megan on the straight and narrow. And that's not what he was talking about.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And then they ended up doing an emergency removal.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
He called us and was hysterical and distraught. CPS just came and took their son. We were shocked. We did not know that was going to happen. And Megan and Andy very quickly found out that my mother had made that call and were very angry with her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
You know, I think we like really naively thought like, well, they're involved, like the doctors reported, right? The doctors understand this is happening. Someone's going to do something.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
The placement was a disaster. They placed the baby with my sister's in-laws, who did not believe that she was abusing him, so they let her see him all the time. And it's very important to keep child separated so that you can see what their health is without the influence of the parent.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
There was no police investigation. There should have been. There should always be.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
My mom and I went and it was my sister and her husband and his parents and like four of his aunties and his best friend and his best friend's wife. I mean, just this like mob of people in this like little room in like the courthouse. Everybody got their chance to talk about how my sister was the most wonderful mother in the world and how could my mother and I ever accuse her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Just like the meanest looks I've ever gotten in my life. Just people looking at us like we were just scum of the earth. It was just so awful. I remember really looking at my brother-in-law's mom like, come on, you have to see this. Why would we be doing this? We have known her all our lives, and she has this, like, long history. And, you know, my sister's just shaking her head.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And I was just like, oh, my God, she's like a cult leader.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
My sister and I are less than two years apart. She was born in 80. I was born in 82, right? So I feel like we had this very happy childhood. It feels like a real bygone era now, right? They grew up in an affluent Seattle suburb. You know, we were friends with all the other kids on our block and there was like not busy streets, like a lot of like riding bikes.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
They basically told her, like, ma'am, you need to get some therapy. And just this sort of soft, so it seemed like there was, like, some acknowledgement that things had been happening, but just, like, no understanding of, like, what was actually happening and, like, not a solution.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And I remember, like, the first Christmas without her was horrible. And you just think like, could this really be permanent?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And we felt so much relief because he got in touch with my dad. He wanted to talk about this, what had happened. We were like, okay, now he's seen it for his own eyes. Maybe Andy would see the Dunlop side of things. And he was expressing to us, like, I really want to, you know, I know Megan misses you guys. I want you guys to reconcile. I'm working on it. I'm talking to her. She's just so sad.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
She feels betrayed. And he was still saying, like, oh, she'd never harm her child. She'd never harm her child. And this was just back and forth with my dad.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
He had also realized as they'd been married for a little bit, the extent of my sister's financial troubles. And so he was also trying to get my dad to like help them out financially. And, you know, my dad was like, yes, I want to help, but you need to send me my grandson's medical records, which seems like a fair trade. And he just absolutely refused to do it. He's like, that's not appropriate.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
It's not appropriate for you to ask for that.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I think a lot about like if I had stayed in my sister's life and sort of stayed wrapped up in all of this, if I would have been able to have any of those things because it had taken quite a bit of work to get back to like a healthy place after all that happened.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
We played outdoors a lot, built a lot of forts, climbed a lot of trees. Just like such a dream, such a dream childhood.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
She went into labor at like 24 weeks. That baby died. And she posted a picture of herself with that baby on her social media. So I found out about that. That got back to us. And I remember like my mother looked up the death certificate because we weren't really sure whether to believe that. But that was true. That happened.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
They learned that after she lost the baby... Right after that, she got pregnant with my niece. So seven months after losing the baby, she has another baby, again at 24 weeks. This baby, my niece, survives, but is in the hospital. You know, obviously a baby born that early is going to be in the hospital for a while.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
That was until... A family member reaches out to us because my niece is on the, like, you know, hospital's fundraising pages have, like, stories of kids that are sick and are at the hospital a lot. And my niece was on that page.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And it was like this, you know, laundry list of like all the things all the time. You know, she spent most of her life in the hospital. She's had, you know, this, she has these many pokes a day, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
But when I was a kid, I was not really the kid that would just like go up to a person and be like, hello. And my sister always was that person, right? She just always seemed to have a really easy time connecting with people. She seemed like especially good at relationships.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
She'd, like, been in the news, been doing some fundraising here and there. You know, like, she'd been in a couple articles about, oh, this mom that has these two children, you know, who have all these issues. At that point, my dad sent a letter to the hospital letting them know about, like, the history because this was, like, at a different hospital than had treated my nephew.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And at this point, I really told my parents. I was like, you know, I don't want to hear updates anymore. Like, there's nothing I can do about any of this. It's so upsetting to learn about these things and to see, you know, her in the news and all this stuff. And I was like, I don't want to know until something major happens. Like, I just don't want to know anymore.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Not long after that, I got a phone call from my dad saying that he had heard from a police detective and that Megan was being investigated, this time for her younger daughter.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
They caught her disposing of anticoagulant medication that her daughter was supposed to get, like covering it on the bedsheets, and then her daughter got a life-threatening blood clot and ended up in the PICU. I think at that point we thought, okay, like, not in a vindictive way, but they're going to get her. Like, they've got it. They have such strong evidence.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
My third novel, We Came Here to Forget, published. And that novel is based very heavily on my experiences with my sister. And so I did some press around the book, like before the book came out. So this is the first time that I'd ever publicly talked about my sister. You know, I was very like careful and guarded sort of with what I said, you know.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
So I was talking about that family connection in the lead up to this book. And four days before the publication of that book, I was on my way to a friend's wedding, was in the car with my husband and one of my best friends. And I got an email from my sister's attorney.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
It was a cease and desist asking me to retract my statements to Vanity Fair, canceled the publication of my book, canceled my book doer, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
He included an excerpt from the family court judge who had just returned custody of my sister's children to her. So that is how I found out that information. Charges were never filed against her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I later followed up with that office to find out why, in the face of such strong evidence, including a medical record review of these 73,000 pages of medical records that my five-year-old niece had at that time.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
It's like you have the sibling code. This code of, like, nobody's snitching to mom and dad. So, like, if you're sneaking out or, like, pretending you were somewhere else when you were at your boyfriend's house. A lot of, like, girly secret-keeping stuff and just kind of, like, a sibling co-conspirator.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
During that time, I met Dr. Mark Feldman, who is this tremendous expert who I've become very close with, who is a psychiatrist who's been, you know, studying Munchausen by proxy for decades. And then I became interested in how I could be useful to this cause.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
That was the first time I'd ever heard from another family member who'd been through a case. And it's just like completely changed the direction of my life and my career.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I'm a storyteller. That's what I have skill set in. Obviously, at that time, I was writing, but I was getting interested in podcasting. And just thought, because I was a big podcast listener and loved the medium, and it was like, oh, this is a true crime podcast.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
By and large, like people don't know what this is. They don't understand it. There's a lot of misconceptions. I was like, well, this is something like I can be helpful with. I know the media because I'm a publicist, I'm a writer. I can tell these stories. Didn't want to present myself as some kind of like objective journalist that's just like found this topic interesting, right?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
This would be totally disingenuous.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
One of the stories I really connected with as I was learning that there were other stories, right, about this was a Hope Ybarra case because it had all of these similarities to my family's case in that Hope Ybarra had been this very intelligent, very promising woman.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And she also had this family that had been very close and really took the same series of events where they uncovered some of Hope's very large deceptions. And then her mother became concerned about her granddaughter and called one of the granddaughter's doctors.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Hope had also had a fake pregnancy. It had also been twin girls. It was just these things where I was like, are they talking to each other? I mean, like just where you feel, and I get this feeling all the time looking at cases where you feel like there is this just playbook, right? The pattern of abuse is so strong. The premature births, the feeding interventions, like this strong, strong pattern.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And so I felt so drawn to this storytelling.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
So I ended up interviewing, you know, her husband, Fabian, and then her father, Paul, her sister, her younger sister, Robin, which was the very, very first interview I ever did. And then her brother, Nick, you know, we ended up going down to Fort Worth to meet with their family. And I just loved them so much. I mean, they were just the sweetest people and they clearly had really loved Hope.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And especially, I mean, you know, talking to Robin, who was the younger sister, just like that we'd had such a similar experience. It was just an extraordinary kind of journey to go on because you're just like, oh my God, I've never talked to another person that's ever been through anything like this. And then you're talking to a person who's had the exact same experience. It is profound.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Yeah, and then the show, to a hugely unexpected degree, took off.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I founded Munchausen Support, which is the only nonprofit in the country that is dedicated specifically to supporting families and survivors who are dealing with this abuse and also helping professionals.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
My memory of it was that it was sports injuries. I have a really strong memory of this like weird plastic back brace that she had that she would wear.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I think a lot about what my sister's future might look like if her kids grow up and leave. And certainly I hope that someday I will hear from her children. I really did all of this because of them and part of what we're up to at Munchausen Support and building some kind of resources for survivors and really thinking about ways in which we can help survivors is also like I built that for them.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
The book, I mean, that actually is a more natural medium for me because I am a writer written for novels. And I loved being able to put the cases so in context, put them in some cultural context, put them in a context of like, this is a pattern.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
This is a, you know, this is a crime that like you can recognize and name and teach people how to deal with and just being able to give some kind of sort of proactive advice. And I think my message I always want people to take away is that this can happen to anyone. This is not race specific. This is not class specific. This is something that happens, you know, in other countries.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And it oftentimes, you know, some of the perpetrators seem like weirdos, but a lot of them seem like really nice, normal moms. It's just like the mom on the PTA.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I have some sympathy for family members that get caught up in this and end up supporting them. The perpetrators, because I've been there, I know how hard that is to accept that someone you love is capable of this. Just to accept that anybody is capable of this, I think is so, so hard. We're just all trying to like chip away until there's like a sort of breaking the damn moment.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And so that's sort of how I think about it. And just like every win, you hold on to every win. If the show reaches someone that needed to hear it that day, you know, which I know these things have happened because I just, I hear from so many people and then they end up reporting or trying to intervene.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
She was saying she was having all this pain in her knee and they went in and did a surgery. And they couldn't find anything.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And it's not acceptable to remain in denial because the person who suffers for that is the child who has no voice, who has no say, who is depending on those family members to recognize it and to intervene.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I have a really strong core belief that stories are the best way to learn and to move people on an issue. There's so much noise and so much distraction and people are not convinced by evidence. They're not convinced by facts. And we live in this time of too much information. So I think like the human element of a story is like that's where we connect to things. That's what cuts out the noise.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And I think that stories can help us feel less alone. And especially if there's something where it's incredibly high taboo, where there's a high degree of shame, where it's this thing that's just in the darkness. I think the only antidote to that is bringing it to light.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
There was an incident in high school where she was losing her hair all of a sudden. And that was very memorable because that's like a big deal. And you're a teenage girl and like losing your hair, which is like such a nightmare. So I remember hearing conversations about that and thinking like, oh, wow, my sister's just really unlucky that she has all these things happen.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And there was certainly, I remember in our teenage years, kind of a feeling of like, oh, there's always something like, oh, it doesn't get better. And then it's this and then it's that.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Oh yeah, like she's brave. She's stoic. She has this tough thing, but she's just like kind of persevering.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I was obsessed with magazines when I was a teenager. I was just like young people today could never imagine like the hold that magazines had on us as teenagers. Because, you know, I was like living in this very like sleepy suburb, which is like, again, a very nice childhood experience to have.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Yeah, this was a time where I was just like, oh my God, my sister is a college girl. And so like, I would go to parties with them and I had my little fake ID. So we would go to the clubs in Canada where they could get in when they were 19. So yeah, sorry, mom and dad. But yeah, we had a great time and it just seemed like the coolest thing ever.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I think those were some of like the easiest years of our relationship.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
So it was a surprise to the family when she announced... That she wanted to do pre-med as a major and really started talking about getting into the medical field. But, you know, given that my sister was not a big school person, obviously becoming a doctor involves a lot of school. So I think it was a little bit like, well, all right, like, it's okay.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Better start maybe, you know, studying a bit more. And then eventually she dropped out of college and went to get her nursing degree. And I remember thinking, oh, this seems like a really good field for her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
It was horrible. And Megan started going to see him a lot. I remember thinking like, oh, I feel very scared of this. And it doesn't seem like my sister feels scared of it. And I remember just admiring that about her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
She seemed to be, like, really thriving in her job. You know, this is an office that I would go to. I knew a bunch of people from the office, so I knew. She was, like, very well-liked in that office. She had a lot of friends. Like, people seemed to really respect her. I would get in the habit very much of, like, asking my sister, you know, whatever, like, medical questions.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
you know, was 21, 22. I was very much the era of the 10 things I hate about you, devil wears product. It was like, you're going to move to the big city and you're going to work for a magazine. So that's what, that's what I want to do is like, okay, I'm going to go be like a magazine journalist. And then, yeah, I look back and I just have to laugh at myself.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I'm like, oh boy, what a case of main character syndrome.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I had like all my delusions intact about becoming a published novelist. And so I was like, well, surely now like I know all these people in publishing and that will be easy. No, that is not quite how it worked out.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
You know, in terms of what was going on with her life at this time, there was a bunch of stuff that I didn't know about that was happening.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Certainly, I think my parents were having some bigger concerns because they were sort of actively bailing her out of these situations. And sort of that was kind of my understanding of a lot of this, right? It's like, oh, you know, they're going to have to swoop in again. So I was aware of that and sort of aware of their relationship becoming more difficult.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
I was pretty defensive of her with my mom and dad, right? It was just like, oh, you guys are just like so hard on her or whatever. I mean, they may even have tried to sort of like talk to me more about it. And I don't know that I was super like accepting of it because I didn't want that to split up my sister and I.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
This is where stuff really took a turn. Again, my sister was working still as a nurse, and she had met this boyfriend who had a son. I think he was five at the time. They seemed like a strange fit. Like he worked at this pawn shop and the fact that he had a kid was like an extra sort of attraction that she could just be an immediate mom. And she seemed to slip into that role really fast.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And so we were sort of like concerned about that situation.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
She called me to tell me that she was pregnant.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
Someone tells you they're pregnant. It's like, all right, well, we're going to like move past this whatever thing. And at least for me, like, that's what I did. I was like, oh, who cares about that stupid fight we had, you know? And then the story that I heard and that my parents heard was that her boyfriend was going back to Tennessee where he was from because he had to go there for work.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And so he was going to be there temporarily, but like he was going to come back and this whole thing.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
She's pregnant with twins, twin girls. So we're excited. I was thrilled about being an aunt.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
She, you know, had a belly. She was wearing maternity clothes. We got presents for the babies. I remember getting like children's books from the publisher I was working with. And she had a bunch of baby stuff in her apartment because it was happening.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
My very weirdest memory was sitting with her at my aunt's house for Thanksgiving. And she was like, oh my gosh, Andrea, put your hand on my belly. The baby's kicking. And I was like, oh my God, that's so cool. And I felt a baby kick.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And they said that Megan was in the hospital and that she had gone into labor early and she was about six months along. So, you know, it's scary early. And she said, yeah, my water broke and they took me to the hospital. And she, yeah, was just like really telling us this really dramatic situation.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And so my parents, you know, started scrambling to get flights back. I had to go back to New York because I was like, you know, some brand new job and like was very junior. So I couldn't take any more time off. I remember talking to her like in the airport. I was just sort of like get on a flight and then called her as soon as I got off and just was for updates, you know.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And then she ended up losing the babies.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 2 - Andrea Dunlop’s Story
And I was heartbroken, like six months in. Just devastating. And I knew how much she wanted to be a mom. And like, yeah, it was just really, really, really sad for her. And then Andrea alleges that... I think it was probably about a week after I got back in New York, my dad called me and said something to the effect of the story of Megan's about these babies is not adding up.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Hannah had just found out that her husband had been having an affair with her best friend. In a 24-hour period, she confronted both of them, asked for a divorce, and launched a novel. It had been one of the longest days of Hannah's life. And then, at 3 a.m., the phone rang. It was her husband, Patrick.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
He told Hannah that their marriage could survive this. All the while Trish, the woman he said he loved just hours before, was in the next room. It was clear to Hannah that no matter what promises Patrick made... He was going to continue seeing her again. Hannah told Patrick to give her space. So Patrick stayed in New York to figure things out. And he stayed with Trish.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Meanwhile, Hannah had to keep going. She needed to keep promoting her book. The next morning, she left for D.C. for another book reading. But now, she was having trouble holding it all together.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
It was a moment of kindness when she needed it the most. After D.C., Hannah finally went back home to Kentucky. And as promised, she saw a divorce attorney right away. Patrick was in denial.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
But eventually, Patrick had to come back to Kentucky because... He still had a job at the same school where I was working. It was difficult to fully disentangle their lives. For 10 years, they built their worlds around each other.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Even though she was putting one foot in front of the other, she was taking the divorce really hard. Patrick had been her person. She missed him. And she didn't have the luxury of space from him. She still ran into him on campus. So a few months after the divorce was finalized, they started grabbing coffee.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
It felt a little like those early days, when the two of them were just friends playing Scrabble in coffee shops. They would talk about how things were going in their careers. As months went by, they even began talking about their new relationships. Hannah started dating another professor at their university, and Patrick remained with Trish.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
One time, he invited Hannah to grab drinks with him and Trish.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Looking back, she's still confused as to why she said yes. Because practically no time had passed between their divorce and their friendship. And soon, boundaries began to blur. Patrick started making a lot of requests of Hannah. Once, in the middle of the night, he called her on a drive. He was on his way to see Trish.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
It was an unhealthy friendship, but it did have one rule. Hannah made Patrick promise that if things ever got serious with him and Trish, he would tell her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
It felt manipulative, cowardly, and it was hurting her. She was finally ready to cut him off. Throughout their whole separation, Hannah seemed to be doing really well.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
She would smile and agree. But in reality, that couldn't be further from the truth.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Hannah's writing also took a hit. She was under contract to write a fourth novel. It was the first time in her career where she couldn't meet her deadlines.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Her doctor was the first person to notice that Hannah wasn't doing as well as she said.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
She recommended that Hannah see a therapist. And Hannah knew she was right. So for the next year, Hannah threw herself into therapy and had some major breakthroughs. She'd been so isolated as a child that she never learned how to build healthy relationships.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
It had been three years since the divorce, and she was still with that professor at her university. This relationship also helped her heal. He had a young daughter, and together they formed a little family.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
During COVID, Hannah had more time than ever to focus on her writing and to reflect on her divorce. But she wasn't writing her usual fiction. New ideas just weren't coming to her. Instead, she kept revisiting real conversations.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
So she started writing it all down. Every conversation she couldn't get out of her head. Memories of Trish from early days of their friendship. Things she'd wish she'd said to Patrick, or that Patrick had said to her. Scenes from the life they'd built and knocked down together.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
She named the book, We Are Too Many, a memoir, kind of. She wanted it to be an honest attempt at capturing a marriage gone wrong. If she was going to write about her divorce and all the real people involved, she wanted to get it right.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. This is part two of Hannah's story. If you haven't heard part one, you should go back and listen to that first. It was the night before the launch of Hannah's third novel. She was crashing at her friend Hugh's place in New York.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
There's no hero in the story. Every character shares blame, herself included.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
She also made it clear that she was only writing from her perspective. These were, as she writes in her introduction, imperfectly recollected exchanges. She was only telling her version of the truth.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
But three years after beginning her memoir, and just as Hannah was about to announce her book to the world, she got an email from her agent
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Her husband Patrick had stayed with him the week before. Hannah and Hugh were up late talking, and out of the blue, Hugh made a strange comment. He said that Hannah should be more suspicious of people in her life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Hannah was about to announce her fifth book, a memoir about her divorce. Throughout their marriage, Hannah's husband, Patrick, had struggled to get published himself. He'd often relied on Hannah professionally. And now his first book is about the affair.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
At first glance, Hannah thought her ex-husband had written a memoir too, a truthful account of what he'd done to blow up their marriage. Confused, she sent a screenshot to a friend.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
In her book, Hannah was confronting her role in her marriage and its breakdown. She wrote Patrick as a real person, someone with flaws and strengths. Her memoir was nonfiction. Still, at the end of her book, people would know that this was only her version of events. But he was writing fiction. He was taking their real story and passing it off as made up.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Fiction writers often use material from their real life as inspiration. Hannah certainly did, but this felt different. She worried, how would he paint what happened? How would he paint her? She wanted to gather as much information as she could ahead of his novel's release.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
The narrator of the story seemed a lot like Hannah's ex-husband. And the story was about him having an affair with his wife's best friend. He gets divorced and remarries. Sound familiar?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
There were scenes from their real life, down to the details of his trip to New York and the phone call confrontation about their affair. There were also details that mirrored Hannah's career, the guy Hannah was dating, and even weird details, like how she slept with a can of pepper spray under her mattress, which the real Hannah did during her marriage to Patrick.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
In the story, the narrator is in the hospital with his new wife. Their 10-month-old baby is extremely ill. While he's at the hospital, he's thinking about his ex-wife, who's just died.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Hannah was at a loss for words. She was sitting at her kitchen table, reading about her imagined death.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
As she always did in big moments, she called her sister.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Hannah could have allowed this revelation to take her to a dark place. It definitely concerned a lot of people in her life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Her husband Patrick had an affair with Trish, her best friend from grad school, the same woman who set them up in the first place.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
But if this was what he wrote in a short story, what was he going to say in his forthcoming novel? It gave her anxiety.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Who was she in this book of his? Hannah had taken great care to try to write him truthfully. How would he write her?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Patrick's novel came out two years after the announcement and a year after her memoir was released. She asked a few trusted friends to give it a read.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
In the first few pages, she recognized the character that was supposed to be her. But it wasn't her at all. Like she said, it was a caricature.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
To this day, Patrick insists that his book is entirely fictional.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
And at the same time, there's a clear connection between their two books. When someone searches for Patrick or his books on Amazon, Hannah's book is one of the top results. Hannah doesn't know for sure, but she wonders if that was an intentional move by his team.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Instead of staying angry, Hannah decided to do what she does best, write. And so she flipped the script.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
When Patrick wrote his novel, he reduced Hannah to a two-dimensional character, a cartoon. It was infuriating and humiliating. And she decided to use those emotions to write.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Pretty soon, the book took on a life of its own.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
The book falls somewhere in between fiction and nonfiction in a genre called autofiction. Hannah actually got the idea to pursue autofiction from her ex-husband.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Autofiction is rooted in real people and real events, but it gives writers the freedom to play with reality for the sake of a compelling story.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Unlike Patrick, she was explicit with her readers about drawing on true events. For example, in her new book, a woman named Hannah is living with her boyfriend and his daughter, just as she does in real life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Hannah thinks a lot about these ethical questions around shared memories.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Out of all the people he could have cheated with, he chose Trish, Hannah's first true friend, her confidant. But Trish chose Patrick too.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Today, Hannah's doing much better. She's in recovery from her eating disorder. It's still something she carries with her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
In many ways, she now feels grateful for what she went through.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why do you want to tell your story?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced by Caitlin Golden and Monique Laborde with additional production by Ben Fetterman.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
She thought back to the early days of their friend group, like that night when Trish reminded Hannah that Trish and Patrick were friends first. But Hannah had never worried about Trish and Patrick's dynamic.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Now Hannah was questioning everything she knew about the two most important people in her life. It was devastating. But sitting in Hugh's apartment, Hannah was numb.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Hannah told her sister everything she knew and then went right into planning mode.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
She needed to compartmentalize and be alone. She hung up the phone and walked back down to Hugh's apartment.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Tomorrow was a big day. She just needed to get through the night. She went to bed still trying to wrap her head around the news.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
It was 6.05 in the morning, and Trish picked up the phone.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Almost immediately, Trish could sense that something was wrong. She asked her what was going on.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Trish admitted it. She and George weren't really together anymore. So the week before, when Patrick was in town, the two of them slept together.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
With that, Hannah ended the call. By this time, it wasn't even 6.30 in the morning. Hugh left for work, leaving her alone in the apartment. And it was around noon when she got a call from Patrick.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Hannah was surprisingly calm. After all, she still had her book launch that night. She needed to stay on autopilot. She didn't have time to grieve. After she got off the phone with Patrick, she kept moving.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
She tried not to think about Trish and Patrick.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Trish wasn't the only one blowing up Hannah's phone.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
And then she went to her book launch. Despite the day she had... The event went well. She got up on stage and read from her new novel, acting as if nothing was wrong. Afterwards, her agent and editor asked her to go out and celebrate. They had no idea about the affair. So Hannah told them.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
No one knew what to say to her, mostly because on the outside, she seemed fine, good even. Still, she wanted to be around her people that night. So she went out with Hugh and a couple of her other friends.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
All of the emotions, the sadness, hurt, anger, confusion, Hit it once. The floodgates were finally open. She was still crying at 3 a.m.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 29 - Hannah, Pt. 2
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Angelique was 17 when she found out she was going to have a baby. She had lost a lot of friends, and by the time she was entering her third trimester, she was feeling isolated and alone. But then a friend offered to connect her to someone new, another teenager named Cassandra, who was four months pregnant.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Finally, Angelique had her pregnancy buddy, someone who wouldn't judge her. It was the connection she'd been craving. They both needed to set up their baby registry, so they decided to do it together at a baby store.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
They started talking every day, commiserating.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
They became fast friends. And they had mutual friends. So they would sometimes hang out as one big group. When they all got together, Cassandra was always on her phone.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
That was one thing they didn't have in common. Angelique was still taking it slow with the father of her baby. But Cassandra was already married to the father of hers.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Cassandra only talked to Edwin in Spanish. Even though Angelique grew up around it every day, she never learned the language. So when Cassandra was on these calls, no one knew what she was talking about.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
It was weird, but people just chalked it up to Cassandra being young, pregnant, and being attached to her husband. A few weeks before Angelique's due date, her family and friends threw her a baby shower.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
The only person who couldn't be there was Cassandra. She'd been feeling sick that day, but promised to check in when she felt better.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
So they made plans for Cassandra to come over a few days later.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
The bag was full of gifts for Angelique. But instead of opening them, they got distracted just catching up.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
So Angelique tried to give Cassandra some grace, even when it came to the endless calls she made to her husband, Edwin.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
By this point, it was getting close to dinnertime. Angelique's mom had to take her little brothers to football practice. She offered to bring Angelique and Cassandra along.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Suddenly, Cassandra seemed on edge, almost paranoid. But then she remembered something.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Cassandra wanted to surprise Angelique with the gifts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
She started dropping presents in her lap one by one.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
But Angelique noticed something off about the gifts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
The whole situation started to give her that weird feeling again.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Then Cassandra brought out an even bigger present, an expensive baby carrier.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Cassandra explained that she'd gotten two of them at her own baby shower and wanted to give one to Angelique. Plus, she said Angelique was special.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Cassandra was on the verge of tears. Angelique almost felt sorry for her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Cassandra had been spoiling Angelique with gift after gift for the baby, but she had one last present for her. It was a gift that involved a light or a projection. You'd have to see it in the dark for the full effect. So they went to Angelique's room, where Cassandra told her to sit on the bed and close her eyes one more time.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Angelique Robledo was thrust into the headlines when she was only 17.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
She couldn't tell if this was just anxiety or if it was something more serious.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
So she tried to calm herself down by lighting a candle, a nervous habit of hers.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
The whole situation was so bizarre. Angelique needed a moment to herself. So she left Cassandra in her room while she went to the kitchen.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
The smell was so intense that Angelique ran from room to room, checking to see if anything was on fire.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Call 911. Help, please. She didn't have time to deal with Cassandra or think at all. She just needed to put the fire out immediately.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Angelique poured on as much water as she could before they had to evacuate.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
As a teenager, Angelique experienced a horribly traumatic betrayal. And that's the story you're going to hear over the next two episodes. It's taken her 10 years of hindsight, processing, and her own investigation to be able to tell the full story, not just for the headlines or the tabloids, but for herself. Today, Angelique is finally ready to tell her story her way.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Right as they got out, Angelique's best friend, who she called in panic, was pulling up to the house.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
He and his mom had called 911 and the fire department was on their way.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Angelique was a week away from her due date, but Cassandra was only six months pregnant.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Angelique's parents arrived home at the same time as emergency services.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Firefighters rushed inside while paramedics started attending to Angelique and Cassandra.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
But Cassandra wasn't feeling better. She thought she was in labor. So the paramedics decided to take her to the hospital. Meanwhile, Angelique went inside with her parents to assess the damage. The firefighters had put the fire out, but not before.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Everyone wanted to know how the fire started. Angelique thought Cassandra had something to do with it, but she didn't think anyone would believe her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
She explained that she had lit a candle in her bedroom and then went to the kitchen, leaving Cassandra alone in her bedroom.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
The authorities retrieved the candle and collected it for evidence. Meanwhile, Angelique tried to explain to her parents that something else had happened that night. She told them about the whole scene before the fire, how Cassandra sat her down in the dark, that she'd been scared for her life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Then EMS began collecting Cassandra's things, including that big bag she'd brought with her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Angelique grew up in a large Mexican-American family.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Their house was always a gathering place for friends and family. Angelique's mom was an interior designer, and she loved being a hostess.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
It was a loving home. Angelique was the only girl in a family full of brothers. She was the sensitive one.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Compared to her brothers, she was more of a people pleaser. She wanted to fit in and be liked. When Angelique was in middle school, her family moved from California to Arizona. It felt like a big upgrade.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
But it was a difficult adjustment. She left all of her friends behind and started middle school in a new state. I was the new girl.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
And part of that new persona meant experimenting with drugs.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
She asked us not to share details about what was happening. But suffice it to say, it was a difficult time.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
The summer before her senior year, she was invited to a party.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
It was at that party that a friend suggested that they try a new drug.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Trying meth wasn't the only thing that happened at the party. There was a guy named Josh there. They'd known each other for years as acquaintances. She thought he was cute.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
She and Josh hooked up. It was casual, a one-time thing. After that party, Angelique's life began revolving around her new addiction.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
As the weeks went on, Angelique began feeling sick and started to suspect she could be pregnant. So one day, about six weeks after she hooked up with Josh, she bought a pregnancy test.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Turns out it was positive. She was only 17 and she panicked.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
But she couldn't stay in the bathroom forever.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Her stepbrother was watching the whole scene and he knew Angelique had just used drugs in the bathroom.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
The rest of that day was a blur. Once everyone in the house had gone to bed, Angelique had one thing on her mind.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
At this point, she'd been addicted to meth for six weeks, and it had taken over her life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Sitting in front of the toilet with a wrench was her rock bottom. She never wanted to go back to that place.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
The next morning, she knew she had to talk to Josh. She told him she was pregnant and he agreed to meet in person.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
She decided that this pregnancy was her second chance, her lifeline. She told Josh that she was going to have the baby, whether he wanted to be involved or not. After all, they had only hooked up once. They hardly knew each other.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
But Josh wanted to be there for her and for the baby. One of their first dates was a doctor's appointment. There, looking at the ultrasound monitor.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
This whole experience led her to sobriety, and she's been clean ever since.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
But it wasn't easy. She had to take one day at a time.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Her friends had moved on without her. She says she felt forgotten.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
On top of that, she didn't have any friends who understood what it was like being pregnant.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Her biggest supporter was Josh. But to prepare for the baby, Josh started working overtime, trying to save money.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
Seeing Josh was often the highlight of her day. That was until she was introduced to a new friend.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
But that new friend would change Angelique's life forever. Forever. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 21 - Angelique Pt. 1
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 5 - Melissa’s Listener Essay
The moment everything changed. Set the scene. Take us back to that memory. Describe the feelings and thoughts you had in the moment when everything changed for you. The limit is a thousand words. If your story stands out, it might be featured in a bonus episode. Please save your submission as a PDF and email it to BetrayalPod at gmail.com.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 5 - Melissa’s Listener Essay
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 5 - Melissa’s Listener Essay
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 5 - Melissa’s Listener Essay
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 5 - Melissa’s Listener Essay
I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 5 - Melissa’s Listener Essay
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 5 - Melissa’s Listener Essay
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 5 - Melissa’s Listener Essay
Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning. A few weeks ago, we put a call out for your listener essays. We wanted to hear from you about resilience after a devastating betrayal. And we received so many incredible essay submissions. So for this episode, we're going to feature the first of two listener essays that really moved me. This one is written and read by a listener named Melissa.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 5 - Melissa’s Listener Essay
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 5 - Melissa’s Listener Essay
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 5 - Melissa’s Listener Essay
When we come back, our producer talks with Melissa about her writing process. And stay tuned until the end of the episode when we'll be sharing the theme of our next listener essay. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 5 - Melissa’s Listener Essay
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 5 - Melissa’s Listener Essay
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 5 - Melissa’s Listener Essay
I'm going to hand it over to our producer, Mo, who talked with Melissa for this episode.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Dev felt like he needed to talk about it, even if he didn't want to. She'd had firsthand experience with veterans and PTSD.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
As an 18-year-old, he'd been in the Special Forces in Vietnam. One night, he caught his senior officers using drugs. Fearing he would turn them in, the officers allowed Jeff to be captured. He was held as a prisoner of war, and for months, he was tortured.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
He recovered physically and was discharged. But psychologically, he was scarred.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Deb was worried about his mental health, especially because his support system was thin. He was in a new place and wasn't in touch with his biological family. So Deb was happy when his siblings reached out to reconnect. They invited him back to Canada.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
A few months later, they flew to Alberta to meet his family. They hadn't seen Jeff in decades. They were elated to welcome him home. And Deb never thought she'd get the chance to meet his siblings.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
It was a good trip. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary. Deb didn't know it at the time, but everyone there was in on a secret. Everyone except for her. Her husband, Jeff, wasn't who he said he was. In fact, everyone in his family knew Jeff by a different name.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Deb and her husband went to Canada to reconnect with his estranged family. And to her surprise, the trip was a success. Meeting his family brought the two of them closer. But one day after they returned from their trip, Jeff collapsed on the golf course.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Deb met him at their house and forced him to go to the hospital. Jeff had suffered a major heart attack. It would require ongoing care. But Jeff still hadn't nailed down a steady job, so the couple needed help covering his medical expenses. Deb had worked at the VA years ago and insisted it was their best resource.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
His explanation just didn't add up. Deb even considered hiring someone to look into Jeff's background.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
She didn't have the money or the time to hire a PI. Shortly after Jeff's heart attack, he had a stroke. Then his memory began to falter. All the while, he was refusing to go to the VA. It financially strained the family, and Deb was at a loss.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Deb was his primary caretaker, on top of her full-time nursing job. It was overwhelming.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Deb had spent so many years taking care of other people that she neglected herself.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Deb had just turned 50 and had been with Jeff for a decade, but life with him was becoming harder year after year. At first, he failed to bring in a steady income. Then when he became sick, he refused resources for affordable healthcare. Deb turned to booze for the stress. But one day, after a long night of drinking, she found herself too shaky to put the golf ball on the tee.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Being alone in rehab gave her a lot of clarity. And with that clarity came questions, specifically about Jeff. When she left rehab, she looked at Jeff's behavior with a new set of eyes.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
She wasn't ready to leave the marriage. Her focus was on her new sobriety. But she did come up with a plan. To get some answers out of Jeff, she gave him an assignment.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
She thought it would be a good exercise for both of them, and she hoped it could help her understand why he was the way he was.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
He needed more care than she could provide at home. So she applied for him to be in a funded outpatient care facility. And he was accepted.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Deb Proctor grew up on the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma. She recently retired from her role as the senior director of her tribe's domestic violence program. And before that, she spent her entire career as a nurse.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Deb was at work. She didn't know where he was. With his memory issues, she worried he could have gotten lost. So they called the police.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
When Deb got there, Jeff seemed confused about what was happening. The whole situation confirmed that he really needed this facility. His memory must be worse than she thought. But shortly after Jeff's incident at the bank, Deb received another phone call. Only this one would change her life forever.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
It was an international call, but Deb had a strange feeling. When she picked up, there was a police officer on the other line. And I was like, what is this about? The officer was Canadian, and he was investigating a cold case from 30 years ago.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
But Deb didn't know a Ron Stan. The officer continued, explaining that Canadian police had been looking for a man named Ron Stan for over 30 years. He disappeared during a fire.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Here's the thing about Ron Stan. He was originally declared dead. But in reality, he'd been on the run ever since that barn fire. Eleven years into her marriage, Deb Proctor got a phone call out of the blue from a Canadian police officer. They were looking for Ron Stan, a Canadian man who'd been missing and later declared dead after an arson fire in 1977.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
And they believed they'd found him in the United States. He was hiding out in a rural part of the Cherokee Nation, using the name Jeff Walton. When the police explained this to Deb... Initially, I thought it was perhaps just a cruel joke.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Like a lot of people in the medical profession, she developed a keen sense for when someone is lying.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
She didn't say much on the phone. She just listened, writing down everything the police told her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Canadian officials wanted to speak to Jeff, or Ron, directly. Deb explained that he was in a care facility during the day because of his memory problems. She confirmed their home address, thanked the officer, and hung up the phone in disbelief.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
She debated whether this phone call was real, if the person on the phone was even a police officer. A co-worker who was afraid for Deb suggested another possibility.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
So Deb went straight there. She wanted to know if the call she'd received was real or if Jeff could be in witness protection. An investigator took Deb's concerns seriously and started making calls.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
She verified that Jeff Walton didn't exist. Her husband of 11 years was a missing person. A man named Ronald Stan, who'd faked his death in an arson fire and had been on the run for 30 years.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
When Ronald Stan disappeared from his farm in rural Ontario in 1977, he abandoned his wife and two young sons. In order to escape, he had lit his barn on fire, killing all the animals. His family watched the blaze helpless, fearing that Ron was trapped inside.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Why he'd faked his death, Deb wouldn't find out until much later. In that moment, she just knew she couldn't go home, not to the house she shared with him. He was a criminal, a fraud, a total stranger. So the Cherokee Marshals helped her come up with an immediate plan.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
She made an appointment with a divorce attorney for the following day, and a friend offered to let Deb stay at her place while she figured out her next move.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
She met with her sons to break the news. And with all of their support, she called Jeff's son, the one he'd had in America, after he went on the run. After all, he was the only child Deb knew about.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
He was named after his father, or rather, his father's alias.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
The Dawes Roll was a list compiled by the U.S. government in the late 1800s and early 1900s. It named about 100,000 Native Americans who were allotted land.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
When the authorities finally got a hold of Jeff, they questioned him and asked to see his proof of identity. He admitted to everything. In fact, he seemed amused. He made a joke to police officers, asking what took them so long. Because the arson had happened so long ago, the statute of limitations had expired in Canada and authorities in the US couldn't charge him either.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
The news caught wind of the story, and it was a media frenzy.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Deb's niece drafted a statement to send to the press on her behalf, and Deb kept tabs on the news. That's how she learned Jeff's real-life story, the one he claimed he couldn't remember. A journalist with the Toronto Star had been reporting on it. Through their investigation, they uncovered a possible motivation for why he faked his death.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
At the time of the arson, Ron was working at a college in Canada. He was having a relationship with a local girl who was much younger. The day he went missing, it seemed this information was about to be revealed. It's not clear how old the girl was, but the threat of being discovered prompted him to go on the run for three decades. Deb also learned how he pulled it off.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
He did. In fact, he had two other marriages he'd never told Deb about. And after he found a woman with money, he needed papers to validate his new identity.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
He used his stolen identity to find work and even collect Social Security benefits.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Growing up, Deb's grandmother was a constant presence and a source of inspiration.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
When the story broke, Jeff himself spoke to the media about how and why he faked his death. And he seemed to revel in it. He sought that attention. He wanted to be a star. He said he chose the name Jeff because it was the name of his infant son he abandoned in Canada, and the last name Walton was inspired by the TV show The Waltons. It sounded like a classic American last name.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
As for the documents he used to marry Deb, they appeared to be forged.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Like the arson, too much time had passed for him to be charged in the U.S. with identity fraud. And what about his elaborate stories, like being a prisoner of war in Vietnam? It's all made up. That's why he was so resistant to using the VA. He never fought in the Vietnam War. He wasn't even an American citizen. The POW story?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Well, he ripped those details straight out of a movie called Platoon, starring Charlie Sheen and his football career at Ohio State with Woody Hayes.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Deb was left wondering if anything he'd ever told her was true. Today, she doubts if he'd even swung a golf club before she met him. After all his lies were exposed, one of Deb's friends finally came clean about something. Remember the golf trip where Deb's friends iced them out? Well, back then, the group had discovered that... He cheated all day.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
He cheated and basically stole a pot of money from Deb's friends. That's why they were never invited to play with the group again. Even his memory issues were a lie. When he talked to the press after the fact, he seemed to remember every detail just fine. So what was really going on that day when he went missing from the facility and was found at the bank? Deb suspects he was planning an escape.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
She also wonders if he targeted her because she lives in a rural part of the Cherokee Nation.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
One of the most baffling aspects of his deception is that visit to Canada a few years into their marriage. Back then, the reunion seemed completely normal. But behind the scenes, Jeff had asked all of his family members to use his new name instead of calling him Ron. They said they were so happy to see him again that they obliged.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
There's clearly so much more to his family dynamics than she'll ever know. It still doesn't sit right with her. What makes it okay that you support this kind of deception? In the beginning, she didn't even know how to refer to him, what name to call him by, whether to call him Ron or Jeff.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
In the weeks after his double life was revealed, Deb was emotionally destroyed. It all happened in her first year of sobriety. Jeff moved back to New Orleans with his son, and Deb was left alone in the house they shared.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
In that moment, she couldn't get up. It felt like her world had ended.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Her grandmother experienced a lot of violence firsthand. Deb's father did too. As a child, his own father was murdered in front of him.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Go on. She got up that day, and she's stayed on her feet ever since.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
She took on a leadership role in her tribe as director of a program providing resources and support to victims of domestic violence.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
In 2019, she got a call from Jeff's son. Jeff had passed away.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
In the last few years, her life has taken an unexpected turn.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
After all, she did make a commitment to being open-hearted. Her new husband meets her at her level. And he's put in the work, too.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
She saw the impact of that on her family. There was alcoholism and emotional turmoil. And when she was young, Deb struggled to process it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to share your story?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
From a young age, she experienced violence and abuse herself.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Deb believes her father's unresolved trauma led him to become a civil servant.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Deb grew up quickly in more ways than one. In fact, on her 16th birthday, her high school boyfriend surprised her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
But her engagement didn't distract her from prioritizing education. Her father insisted that she earn an advanced degree.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Before she even had a chance to know herself, she was married and working as a full-time nurse.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
They had two sons together. But a few years into marriage, her husband's behavior became a problem.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
She eventually left her husband and resolved to end the cycle of violence to make a safe and stable environment for her and her two sons.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
She started going to therapy and joined support groups for families impacted by alcoholism. She was creating a better life for herself and for her sons. When her sons became teenagers, she looked around and realized, I did want a partner in life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
She was 41 and felt ready to explore a new partnership, so she made an online dating profile. This was 1997, back when online dating was a novel concept. Yeah, this ain't Bumble, this ain't, yeah, this is none of that stuff. One man piqued her interest. His name was Jeff Walton.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Jeff said he wanted to treat his next partner like a queen. Deb wrote him an email. He lived a couple states away in Kentucky. But their conversation flowed easily. And Deb quickly discovered they shared the same interests. They both loved golf. And Jeff wanted to hear more about Deb's Cherokee culture.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
As they got closer, she got to know more about his backstory. He was born in Alaska and moved to Canada. He was a dual citizen of Canada and the United States, and he had a complicated relationship with his biological family.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Deb had seen her share of violence as well. She understood what it was like, so they bonded over their difficult childhoods. Jeff's family was still in Canada, but they'd fallen out of touch. He moved to New Orleans as a young man, and along the way, he picked up the accent.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Jeff's ex-wife and adult son still lived in New Orleans, but after his divorce, he'd taken a job in Kentucky.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
Jeff was the kind of person who'd lived a million lives in one. He just fascinated me.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
After a year of talking, they decided to finally meet each other in person. Jeff flew to Oklahoma. When he arrived at the airport, she was waiting for him with a gift.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
The weekend could not have gone better. Jeff wanted to get to know her world.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
they started making arrangements for him to move to Oklahoma.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
They spent the next year planning a small family wedding in the Ozarks. We married on April 23, 2000. It was the anniversary of the day they met in person. Deb's youngest son walked her down the aisle, and Jeff's son, little Jeff, flew in to support his dad. It was a true merging of their lives. I really thought it was meant to be.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
They planned their first trip together as newlyweds, a golf trip with Deb's group of friends. Deb had been golfing for her entire life. Every year, she and her friends traveled the country to play. Jeff was eager to join. He'd been an avid golfer when he was younger, but he hadn't played in years.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
And I was like, well, golly, great job. But Deb's friends were standoffish with Jeff about his win. And one of her friends was quick to point out... A real golfer is not going to leave their clubs behind... It doesn't make sense. Her friends had never acted like this before. She didn't know what happened, and neither did Jeff. But after that, they weren't invited on any more golf trips.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
I felt like everybody was mistreating him. A year into their marriage, Jeff was still struggling to find the right job in Oklahoma. One day, when Deb was helping him with an application... Well, I found an old resume.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 24 - Deb
He'd never told her he was a veteran, but Deb had a lot of experience with the VA. While getting her advanced nursing degree, she worked on a program at the VA that specifically studied Vietnam veterans with PTSD. I'm like...
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: Betrayal Season 4 Trailer
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Joel Kern was a respected lieutenant at the Colorado Springs Police Department. But Joel used his badge to fool everyone.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: Betrayal Season 4 Trailer
Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: Betrayal Season 4 Trailer
He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Betrayal: Season 4
S4: Betrayal Season 4 Trailer
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception, on and off the clock. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal starting on May 22nd on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
A lot of times, big economic forces show up in our lives in small ways.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
Yeah, you never can really anticipate how certain things occur to the storyteller when they hear it back. Yeah. We're operating from a place of these are individuals that have gone through a traumatic event and their foundation of trust and reality have been either distorted or destroyed and they're rebuilding.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And so it's really important for us to operate in a safe place of trust and transparency and sharing that is a huge part of it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
A lot of times the big economic forces we hear about on the news show up in our lives in small ways.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And I'm Stacey Banik-Smith. Every Friday, we will be diving into the biggest stories in business, taking a look at what's going on, why it matters, and how it shows up in our everyday lives.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
For the two-parters, a lot of them are like, oh, wow, this has a lot of twists and turns. There's a lot going on that we don't feel like we can pack in in under 50 minutes. So let's just approach it like two parts and gives us more freedom.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
But let's talk about Hannah. Sure, yeah. Because sometimes I think it's just as much as like the twists and the turns of the story of like... you know, understanding someone's background, how they met the person that ultimately betrayed them, the betrayal, and then its ending and its aftermath. Sometimes there's like these incredible, beautiful scenes.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
Like she talks about being on the train from DC to Philly. And I particularly love the fact that this guy was getting off in Philadelphia and she was like crying and she was hysterical. And this person was like, I'm sure there's somebody that loves you and cares about you. Like, and she goes, people are just the best.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And it was this moment of like... You know, sometimes if we're cutting a lot of stuff, you're missing moments where you get to just sit with the human experience. I just love that. Yeah.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
Listen, I mean, this is how we fund the show. And there's like a formula that we have with iHeart in terms of like ad markers of when, you know, if your episode's X amount of time long, like 40 minutes long, there's ad breaks and they sell the ad space and we're forever grateful because it keeps us in business. So that's why we have ads.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
It's $3.99 a month. And so if you want an ad-free experience... That's not just betrayal. It's a ton of shows. You know, if that means something to you to help support creators, support producers, that's the way to go. Yeah.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
I have a lot of opinions on this. Great. I mean, I don't judge Tora, but it's fair to just understand the mechanics of it. But one of the things that Tora shared in her episode is she had very specific boundaries around her intimacy and her physical intimacy. And she also shared that... He was really embarrassed by this part of his body. He always wore a sock and he covered it up.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And I think just, you know, we talk about this a lot, like perpetrators, they'll find the right person. The people that are understanding and trusting, you know, it works because she honored his boundaries physically. Yeah. You know, when you trust someone, when you're coming from a place of believing someone, it starts there. And he was embarrassed by it. And he wanted to cover it up.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And she's already coming from a place of respecting intimate boundaries and physical boundaries because she has her own. I can see it. It didn't seem crazy to me. It didn't.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
Hey, guys, it's Andrea Gunning, and this is our first bonus episode after finishing our season of weekly stories. This year, our team has been working hard behind the scenes to put every weekly episode together.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And the we I'm referencing is my amazing production team, our producer, Monique Laborde, our associate producer, Caitlin Golden, and our audio engineers, Matt Dalvecchio and Tanner Robbins. For this special bonus episode, I'm joined by my producer to answer some of your listener questions.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
I wish we had these answers. I mean, Danielle's a mom of six that's homeschooling and managing all of those children every day and is just focused on keeping the family afloat and is like just trying to keep her head above water. I don't think she even knows the extent of what he was doing. I genuinely I don't I don't get the sense that she knows the full extent.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
I mean, before we even started producing season one, my producer for the narrative limited run series, Carrie Hartman and I were reading Talking to Strangers by Malcolm Gladwell. We went to go see him speak at the University of Pennsylvania.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And we were both really interested in this whole concept of default to truth, which is a concept that you're more likely to believe someone is telling you the truth than assuming that they're lying to you. And then especially when it comes to strangers, people are generally bad at detecting when someone's lying to you.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And I think sometimes we often worry about how did you not know then the reality of this person did a bad thing. There are bad people. People like Danielle's husband that are doing bad things. And I think your assumption is my husband isn't capable of kidnapping two elderly people from our church and putting them in a dungeon. Yeah. We're not necessarily wired to do that line of thinking.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
Even if your husband is out late, it's like maybe worst case scenario, he's blowing off steam in the car and driving around and you're not going to my husband's kidnapping somebody. Like, let's really talk about the reality here. It's just not just more often than not, you're rationalizing.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And you're bringing in your historical information of the person that you think that they are based on a lifetime of experience and just evidence. And then you're making assumptions. And so... It was important for us when we did this show, especially when we started Jen's season, to really explore this because these stories are born out of the scenarios where people didn't see it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
I'm so excited to jump in. I actually want to start with a question for you. Yeah, go for it. You know, this has been an evolving journey just from the format and how we're approaching our interviews. So I just wanted to ask, what has it been like?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
I know exactly what you're talking about. During Dr. Carrie McAvoy's episode, there's a part in her story where she's getting really sick. She's really ill. And the listeners heard it, picked up on it, and noted something very specific. I don't even know if I can mention it here just for legal reasons.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And then she began noticing other symptoms.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And like we said earlier in the episode, we go through a rigorous legal process. And all we could report on was what she was experiencing, what her symptoms were, but we couldn't necessarily name what the audience is basically flirting with because we didn't have any evidence to show. We didn't have medical records. Like, to say that that happened is defamatory.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And there are certain things like that, like, we just cannot do. I mean... He was never arrested. Mm-hmm. And so for Dr. Carrie McAvoy's episode, you know, she thought that something was happening to her. Our audience thought that, but we couldn't specifically name it for legal reasons.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
A lot of times the big economic forces we hear about on the news show up in our lives in small ways.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. Every Friday, we will be diving into the biggest stories in business, taking a look at what's going on, why it matters, and how it shows up in our everyday lives.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
She had been dating a guy named James. And James was having issues with... who she was talking to, even at work. And so it was seeming like the walls were kind of closing in, like he was really controlling every aspect of her communication with people. And there was this moment where things really escalated. She took his phone.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
She saw things in a hidden folder, very similar to Ashley from season two. And she saw what she would assume is illegal material on the phone that she felt like was CSAM, child sexual abuse material. She found a photo. I don't really want to go into too much detail, but it was disturbing to her and she couldn't get the picture out of her head.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And she felt like there was something familiar to this photo. And she like woke up in the middle of the night. It's like, I know who these children are. James had friends who had children and it could be their daughter's.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
There's so much we don't know about the photo, first and foremost. Yeah. This could be a photo he found on social media and cropped, you know, because they were wearing bathing suits. So we don't really know.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
What we do know and what we discussed with Chelsea is that when she ultimately went to law enforcement, she reported the photo and let them know, this is who I think could be the family who has children. Mm-hmm. And she left it in their hands. And that was something that we didn't include in the show, which looking back on it, we should have.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
Yeah. That would have been that would have helped a lot of people. Yes. When hearing the episode.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And I know that, you know, Chelsea was fearful of retaliation from James. He threatened her with legal action.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And so... I think she felt safest letting law enforcement do what they needed to do. And she did the right thing by reporting it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
Great. It's always so good to see and hear feedback from the listeners, no matter what it looks like. Good, bad, the ugly. Like we really do want to know, you know, especially if there are like gaps in a story where people were asking. We either have an answer or you just taught us something that we didn't think about. So we really appreciate it. Yeah.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
I've thought about that feedback from that listener every episode since. Me too. And we can't necessarily editorialize people's life path or where they are when we meet them. Yeah. But what I really thought was fascinating is being careful about the language.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
Using the right language is really important. So I'm very grateful for that person to write in.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
I can't believe we've wrapped the weekly series. I think it's been really successful, and I absolutely love this show. We air season four of Betrayal, the limited run, on May 22nd. Mm-hmm. It's about a woman and her family out of Colorado Springs. You know, we're going to hear that story over eight to 10 weeks.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And then shortly after that, we'll go back into the weekly series where it's a different story every week or every other week. But in between, so from now through May 22nd, we have a ton of really exciting bonus material that we've been working on. You've been working really hard on, Mo.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
We have a great bonus episode with a woman named Dr. Kate Truitt, and she explains the neuroscience of storytelling and how storytelling can be healing after experiencing trauma. We have... listener essays that people have submitted based on our prompt, which is resilience in the face of devastating betrayal. And we have a woman named Andrea Dunlop, her story.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
It's kind of like a regular weekly episode, but a little bit shorter to kind of satiate our listeners. So I'm really excited to see what people think of the content that will be coming out in the next few weeks.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
I'm so glad everyone got to meet you, though. You're the nuts and bolts of this. And so it's really great for the listeners to hear the people that make this show work.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
Yeah. So it's completely different workflow for seasons one through three. So Jen's story, Ashley's story, Stacey and Tyler's story. I'm in these individuals' homes. I'm in their towns. I'm with them. Like I just came back from a few weeks ago from Colorado Springs preparing for season four. And I was with her and her kids and her family and her best friends over the course of two weeks.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
A lot of times, big economic forces show up in our lives in small ways.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And you just create this bond and this connection and you really understand these individuals' lives. And I don't get that opportunity on the weekly series anymore. We don't have the opportunity of like eight to 10 episodes for us to really take our time. We are really boiling down hours and hours of interview into a linear timeline. And we want to get it right.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
This is one or two episodes where we have to like really do it in a concise and thoughtful way. And it's just been a really interesting experience, like making sure that we honor everything that's important to the individual.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And we're actively seeing it. Like we're seeing individuals who have participated that are getting together in real time that live across the country from one another that really only know one other person that may have experienced a betrayal like them. Like that is so special and cool.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And we've only been able to really experience that because of the weekly series, which is diverse stories in a short amount of time, you know? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
This is one we talk about a lot. It is. We want to represent individuals who experience betrayal, like all different walks of life, right? Because it's not specific to any gender, race, religion. I don't think that men are being deceived or betrayed less.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
I just think that there's a stigma around that vulnerability and like sharing that may relate more to how men process that trauma and are willing to share that trauma. You know, we find a lot of the stories from our own listeners, like our audience who write in and our primary demographic is women. And so a lot of that's coming from the people in our community.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
So there's a little bit of that going on. I'm interested to hear what hypothesis you have.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
This is just like my armchair perspective. But shame is a huge deal when it comes to betrayal. Like, how did I not know? How did I not see it coming? I should have known better. I should have this. I should have that. And I didn't. And I put myself into harm's way. And there's a lot of shame and the reckoning that comes with that. And so I think you're dead on. Not everyone comes forward.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And we'll always have a safe space for men to share their story here. Yeah.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
Oh, my gosh. We go through such a rigorous legal process because there's a lot of legal vetting in terms of pulling legal support, what's in the public domain, divorce paperwork, personal records. It gets filtered through our attorney a few times. But before we get to that, you have initial conversations at the very beginning.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
Do you want to talk about that?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
Also, when we're working on an episode, we are running initial like broad stroke background information to the extent that we can. Just to make sure that we can kind of corroborate certain things in people's story, just like time and place, just make sure things are matching. Yeah.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
Or as Heather Gay once said, receipts, proof, timeline, screenshots, everything. Yes, exactly. Yeah, maybe this is a good opportunity to talk more about our production process.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
So you do the hours-long interviews and then you... have a really good understanding from meeting with the storytellers and having the pre-interview of like what's important to them to share and the journey that you want to go on. And so you present me and our associate producer, Caitlin, like a ton of material for us to work with.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 1 - Behind the Scenes Q&A
And we talk about each bite that you've taken out of the interview and how do we introduce it? Like how do we write into it? How do we write out of it? And we put it in a linear fashion and then we just write around it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Trish was Hannah's first real friend, and their bond only grew stronger during Hannah's second year in grad school.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
He had been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. Trish knew what Hannah was going through. She had lost her own dad a couple years earlier.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Hannah's other grad school friends just didn't get it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Trish was dating a guy named George, a poet in the program. The two of them were very plugged into the live music scene in town, so they would often bring Hannah to shows. That's how Hannah met Patrick. He was a musician in a local band.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
During this period, Hannah was often traveling home to spend time with her family and visit her stepdad in hospice.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
But Trish insisted that the two of them should hang out. So she gave Patrick Hannah's number.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. Hey, it's Andrea Gunning.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Like Trish, Patrick was confident, maybe even a little cocky, but they had a real connection.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Their relationship was platonic, even after Patrick broke up with his girlfriend.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
But their dynamics started to shift after Patrick had a major surgery. It meant he needed to spend a lot of time resting at home.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Hannah would even bring Patrick along to check on her mom, who was now living outside of Charlottesville.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
She started to see a different side of him. As they grew closer, they started going out with Trish and George.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
The four of them were always out together, talking to strangers and laughing until the bars closed down.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
She was finally living life. And she was channeling these experiences into her writing.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
She was a good writer. She regularly submitted to literary magazines, and she was getting published.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
And Patrick actually started to write short stories of his own. He wasn't in school or in their writing program.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
The two of them would often spend Scrabble games talking about books and story ideas. Hannah also trusted Patrick to read her works in progress.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
With these kinds of comments, Hannah started to wonder, was Patrick into her?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
She wasn't going to make the move. She knew Patrick had other women in his life. And it was hard to tell for sure if the feelings were mutual.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Our season of weekly stories is coming to an end, but don't worry, we'll be back soon with more episodes. So if you have a story of your own that you'd like to share on the podcast, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. In the meantime, we wanna do something new and exciting. this month, we're taking short creative essay submissions from listeners.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
But she didn't call a cab. They kissed and she spent the night.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
They were in love. Still, much of the time they'd spend together was in their group of four.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
But eventually, the group's lifestyle started to catch up with Hannah.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
She didn't like what heavy drinking did to her, who it made her become. And she certainly didn't like what alcohol did to Trish.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
When Trish got like this, it would set Patrick off.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Nights would often end in fights. And even when they didn't, things like this would happen.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Trish wasn't being the supportive, encouraging friend Hannah had first met.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Instead, it felt like she was going out of her way to cut Hannah down.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
The theme is resilience in the face of a devastating betrayal. We want to hear the story of how you healed scars and all. Here's the catch. The limit is a thousand words. If your story stands out, it might be featured in a bonus episode. Please save your submission as a PDF and email it to BetrayalPod at gmail.com. Okay, now on to the episode.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
When Hannah started dating Patrick, her relationship with her best friend started to shift. It seemed like Trish always had something to say, and it felt like at times she was undercutting Hannah's relationship with Patrick. After Hannah graduated, a window opened. Her mom offered Hannah and Patrick the chance to live rent-free in her mother's farmhouse outside the city.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Moving into the farmhouse allowed Hannah to make writing her priority. She submitted more stories for publication and even began writing her first novel. To her surprise, Patrick wanted to do the same.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
But his success was limited compared to Hannah's. And he struggled with being farther away from town. It took a toll on Patrick.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Hannah's mom also noticed a change in Patrick. She once called Hannah during her work shift.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Life in the farmhouse wasn't working for Patrick. Hannah was worried. She knew they needed a change. That's when her book sold.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
And the good news didn't stop there. On top of the sale of her book, Hannah was offered a teaching position in Chicago. Plus, Patrick was offered a spot in an MFA program in Boston. He could complete it and then go meet Hannah in Chicago. They decided it would be a great change, a fresh start.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Trish and George were also ready for a new beginning. By this point, they were married, and Charlottesville was feeling small. With big changes coming, the group became nostalgic. Trish and George were still Hannah and Patrick's close friends, and no one knew when they'd all be together again.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
So for their last couple months in Virginia, Hannah and Patrick moved back into town to relive the old days as a group of four.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Right away, they fell back into their old patterns. Hannah always ended the night feeling hurt or embarrassed. But whenever she asked Patrick if they could cut back on time with Trish and George... He would say, they're part of my past.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. Betrayals often come with a loss. On this show, we've heard stories from people who lost the love of their life or their understanding of who that person was. Others have had their children, their home, or their money taken from them.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Patrick was in a fragile place, and Hannah knew that Trish and George made him feel like his old self. So instead of demanding that they cut off their friends, she went along with it, at least for the time being.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
It was clear to Hannah that she'd outgrown the group. It was a challenging couple of months. But then it finally came time for Hannah and Patrick to move on. He spent a year in Boston.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Through this big transition, Patrick was there for Hannah.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
He was her champion. But when it came to his own career, he felt discouraged. He was writing his first book. Unlike Hannah, he had a difficult time getting published. So once again, his mental health took a turn for the worse.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
It wasn't an easy time for Hannah either. Her second book wasn't finding a publisher as quickly as her first.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
She said yes. Finally, they had something to look forward to. So they started planning the wedding.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Of course, Trish and George were there. Even though those last couple months together were rocky for Hannah, they remained the couple's closest friends.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
The day was everything Hannah hoped it would be.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
And then... And then her book did find a publisher. And she sold a third book right after that. She was elated. But Patrick wasn't.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
He turned to Trish and George for support.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
They made more of an effort to see Trish and George with vacations and visits back and forth.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Hannah also helped Patrick secure a teaching job when she got a new role at a university in Kentucky. The move and the job did little to help Patrick. And his dreams of a book deal?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
By this point, they'd been together for nearly 10 years. Hannah was accomplishing everything she wanted in life. Meanwhile, her husband was miserable, and she couldn't help but feel that he resented her for her success. He was lost and grasping for any sense of purpose. She didn't know how to help him. Finally, Patrick was given an opportunity.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
We've told stories about people losing their sense of self. But no matter the betrayal, everyone we've talked to has held on to one thing, their story. Even when they lost everything, they still had the truth. But then we heard Hannah Pittard's story.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
The second summer after they moved to Kentucky, he was offered two prestigious writing residencies.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
It would mean a lot of time apart. But Hannah thought this was good for Patrick and for their relationship. Besides, she'd be traveling a lot that summer, promoting her third book. She told Patrick to go.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Between France and his next residency in the States, Patrick had a week off and he spent it in New York visiting old friends.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
And that's what happened. Or so Hannah was told. The week after Patrick went to his second residency, Hannah needed to be in New York for her book launch. She was going to crash with her friend Hugh, just like Patrick had the week before. She got in a day early, and the night before her book launch, she and Hugh stayed up late talking. Randomly, they got on the topic of jealousy.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
She didn't know where this was coming from. But Hugh seemed serious. Like he had something he needed to say. Like he was trying to tell her something.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
She knew the question she really wanted to ask. She was just afraid of Hugh's answer.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's Betrayal P-O-D at gmail.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced by Caitlin Golden and Monique Laborde with additional production by Ben Fetterman.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Today, Hannah is an accomplished author. Stories have always been a big part of who she is. When she was little, Hannah's family lived on a farm outside of Atlanta. There, her imagination would run wild.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. This is an iHeart Podcast.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
But it wasn't a wonderful time for everyone. When she was in elementary school, Hannah's parents began a bitter divorce. Hannah was the youngest of three, and at first the siblings all had each other. But eventually, her older siblings went off to boarding school, and Hannah was left at home in the middle of her parents' custody battle.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
That's when she started writing stories of her own.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Writing felt exciting. It allowed her to get lost in worlds of her own creation. But in her real life, Hannah was lonely. So she asked her parents to send her to boarding school. She thought it would be her chance to start over, to reinvent herself.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Hannah chose Deerfield Academy, a school known for its challenging academics. It was cutthroat, but Hannah hardly noticed.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
By 10th grade, Hannah developed an eating disorder. And as a note to listeners, we're going to talk about some details of her experience. For Hannah, controlling food was a way for her to feel a false sense of control. It only made the divide between her and her peers grow wider.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
She kept her head down and focused on her studies, especially her English and creative writing classes.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
For college, she went to the University of Chicago and got her degree in English.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Pursuing a real writing career terrified her, but she dreamed of a master's degree in fiction writing. So she sent in a few half-hearted applications.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
She spent the next year honing her craft as best she could.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
She packed up her life and headed to Charlottesville. And she made a promise to herself, the same one she'd made before boarding school.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
From her first day in the program, that vision felt within reach.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Trish was everything Hannah was not. And Hannah wanted to make a good first impression.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
So when she introduced herself to the group, she turned bright red. And Trish noticed.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
That day was a new beginning for Hannah. She was starting to have the social life she'd always wanted.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
And at all these events, Hannah would watch Trish command the room.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Trish started calling Hannah to hang out, and her confidence began to rub off on Hannah. For so long, Hannah had been trying to make herself small, emotionally and physically. For instance, she would only wear sports bras.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
But Trish inspired Hannah to make a change.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Trish liked to go out. It was something Hannah hadn't really done before. But pretty quickly, she realized she liked it too.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Over time, Hannah began distancing herself from the other first years, and she was spending more and more nights with Trish.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 28 – Hannah, Pt. 1
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
We're talking with Dr. Kate Truitt, who's an applied neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and educator. Dr. Truitt says that when it comes to identifying the stories your brain has written about trauma, you can take the first step on your own.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
But working through that fear and vulnerability is part of the process. Dr. Truitt helps her clients develop tools for navigating the difficult feelings that come up when they're telling their story.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Mindful touch is a meditation practice of clearing your mind, bringing your awareness to your body, and gently running your hands together or running your hands over your arms like a hug. It's a way to ground yourself and help calm down your amygdala. It seems simple, but this practice can build a sense of safety around traumatic memories.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Another important step in this process is detaching from labels.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Certain labels have more power than others, like the label of victim. It's a word that comes up a lot in our interviews. It's a polarizing and emotionally charged label. Some people adopt it. Others reject it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Still, having a word for that experience and the changes it caused can be a way to acknowledge that it happened.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
A major barrier to building resilience and empowerment is shame. Dr. Truitt explains where shame comes from and why we hold on to it so tightly.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Shame is baked into our brains' normal functioning, and it's something we have to learn to work with.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
As we often hear on our show, healing from trauma isn't linear. And healing doesn't always bring back the person you were before. That's one of the hardest parts. So we asked Dr. Truitt what healing looks like when she's working with clients.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is a special bonus episode of Betrayal. Our team loves to dive into the science and psychology behind betrayal and the trauma it can cause. We often talk about the power of storytelling as a tool for healing. So we got curious about how the science of storytelling really functions in trauma recovery.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Instead of making happiness a marker of healing, a more realistic approach is to build self-compassion.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
This is the work she's actively doing with her clients. But Dr. Truitt acknowledges that therapy isn't always accessible. That's why she's committed to online education and sharing free resources.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
That's how we found applied neuroscientist and clinical psychologist, Dr. Kate Truitt.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Her most recent book is a memoir, where she uses her own story as a lesson in trauma recovery.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
In writing her memoir, she experienced firsthand how healing it can be to tell your story. And it's a story she hopes other people can learn from.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Thank you for listening. And a special thanks to Dr. Kate Truitt for sharing her expertise with us. In the spirit of storytelling for trauma healing, we're going to spend the next two weeks sharing listener essay submissions. The theme was resilience and recovery after a devastating betrayal. We received so many incredible submissions and we're excited to share them with you.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
So stay tuned and we'll be back next week. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Dr. Truitt also has her own clinical practice in Los Angeles, where she sees clients who've experienced trauma.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
She's very open about her own lived experiences and how they impact her work.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
I wanted to start by asking Dr. Truitt what trauma really is in a clinical sense. For instance, what makes something a traumatic experience to our brains?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
There's one part of our brain responsible for processing safety. It's the amygdala. Dr. Truitt actually personifies the amygdala. She affectionately calls her Amy. By making the amygdala into a character, that can help us see its reaction as separate from who we fundamentally are.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Sometimes the amygdala struggles to determine the size of a risk, and it can be activated in all kinds of situations.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
What the amygdala considers to be a threat changes all the time based on the things we experience.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Whether we're aware of it or not, our amygdala is always reacting to experiences. Dr. Truitt says that traumas that occur in early childhood, even ones we're too young to remember, can still have a strong impact on the amygdala's sense of safety.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Regardless of the degrees of trauma we experience, it always takes a toll. Trauma exists on a spectrum, and so do the effects.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
It's fascinating to hear her unpack how one event in our lives can impact our brain wiring and how it can also put our body in trauma mode. So without proper intervention, we could stay in that state for the rest of our lives. It can keep us from achieving our goals or experiencing joy.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
And a lot of Dr. Truitt's work is teaching people how. After we have a traumatic experience, our brain starts to develop a story, a narrative to explain what happened and how it happened. We can become very attached to that story. For example, if your partner has an affair, your brain's initial story might be, I'm not good enough. But here's the thing.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Oftentimes, our brain writes the story while we're in trauma mode, and the first draft is full of self-blame.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
And when the brain is stuck in that survival mode, seeing through trauma glasses, this is what it can feel like.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Part of Dr. Truitt's approach is understanding the amygdala's response and even empathizing with it, because its biological intention is to keep us safe.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
We are wired to make stories, but we're also allowed to revise the story our brain writes.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
After the break, Dr. Truitt delves into specifics about storytelling as a tool for trauma recovery.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: BONUS EP 4 - The Science of Storytelling for Trauma Recovery
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Dawn had forgiven her fiancé Wes for a number of things. He told her he was separated from his wife, when in reality, he was still very much with her. He told Dawn he worked as a salesman at a steel company, which she found out was also a lie. Finally, with Wes coming clean, the couple could enter a new era, a sort of golden era. And it started with a wedding.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
The new job Wes scored, which this time was a real job, proved to be a natural fit for him. He was managing investor money at an oil and gas company. And he was great at it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
They moved out of the small town where his ex-wife and family lived and settled in a Fort Worth suburb to be near his job.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
They were officially somebodies. And it was around this time when she entered this life of luxury that Dawn made a new friend. We'll call her Sandy.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
As their personal life blossomed, so did Wes's career. The oil company was growing a lot and Wes had made friends with the right people there. People who wanted to take him all the way to the top of the company. In fact, they gave him the opportunity to buy the company. He did.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
The sale of the company happened fast and under kind of weird circumstances. But Wes didn't seem concerned about it. And the money was good.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
And the couple got to spend a lot of time doing something they both loved, partying.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
It was a whirlwind, great Gatsby style, but set in the 2006 Texas suburbs. Dawn and Wes were still in their 30s, and they made it big. She knew her husband was a charmer, but there were two sides to that coin. On one side, he was a natural leader and salesman, but on the other side, Wes was still the same old ladies' man. Early on, Dawn found evidence that Wes might be cheating on her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Instead of confronting him, she decided to take a different approach.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
I had to know a little more about the Dallas swingers scene.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Dawn says she was, quote, in the lifestyle for about a year and a half until the party started feeling off to her. It stopped being fun. but Wes pressured her to keep going with him. Those nights would always end in drunken blackouts, fights.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
They stopped going to swingers clubs together and for a while, everything seemed normal. That was until years later when Wes began spending more and more time at work. Don was becoming suspicious about his work travel and the long hours he was putting in. Plus, he became guarded with his phone. Whenever Don tried to confront him, they got into an argument.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
It was a lie that gave him a reason to leave her. And he took it. Immediately.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Dawn couldn't understand why he was so eager to walk out on her. So she turned to her friend, Sandy. And Sandy had recently seen Wes. And she's like, he took his ring off.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Soon after, Wes went on a work trip. Dawn got a weird feeling about it. Call it intuition. So she decided to do a little investigating. I found out where he was staying. She called the hotel front desk and she found out that there were two people staying in Wes's room. The other person was Sandy, Dawn's friend.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
She suddenly understood why Wes had been so quick to walk out of their marriage and why Sandy was feeding her information about Wes's infidelity, even advising her that the relationship was too much. She was supposed to be my brand, but she's screwing my husband. When Wes came back from that business trip, his affair with Sandy was outed. It was a big scandal.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. As a listener note, this episode contains references to suicide and suicidal ideation. Please take care while listening. About a year ago, we heard from a fast-talking Southern woman named Dawn. I'm from East Texas, born and raised. Dawn is a firecracker.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
It was humiliating, infuriating, but it was nothing compared to what came next.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
She didn't even know what day the divorce hearing was set for.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
She didn't just hire any attorney. She hired the mayor of their town.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Speaking your mind just runs in Dawn's family. She gets it from her mom.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Dawn's story of betrayal is a little different. She's the first to say that her story starts when she committed a betrayal of her own.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Dawn discovered her husband Wes had been cheating on her with her close friend. And in the divorce that followed, he filed a restraining order to keep Dawn out of his multi-million dollar business. He crossed her one too many times. And now, she needed to know the extent of his wrongdoing.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
She saw posts from people who'd invested in Wes's oil company saying they'd been promised returns, but those returns never came. Dawn was also finding records of properties in her husband's name, properties she didn't know anything about, that all led back to Wes.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Her friend couldn't tell her about the investigation, but someone else was about to.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
She might not be involved with the company, but she did know Wes was always up to something. And if she could help expose more of his lies, she was in.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
In the early 2000s, Dawn was married with two young daughters. She described her first husband as a nice guy, maybe the first guy that had ever really been good to her. But she wasn't in love. One night, Dawn decided to go out with her sister.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
And she learned he had misappropriated $2 million. That $2 million was just the beginning. In total, West's company illegally raised $13 million through what's known as a boiler room scheme. Salespeople like West duped hundreds of everyday people to invest their savings in the company's oil drilling projects.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
But they were doing it using fake data, falsified information about the company's profits, and empty promises about their expected returns. And a lot of those investor funds weren't being used to expand the company's profits.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
And where did all that money go? Well, Wes used it to fund their family's lavish lifestyle.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Money stolen from regular people who'd invested in Wes's oil and gas company, who were told they'd see massive returns.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
She was scared for her own safety. But more so, she was devastated when she heard from the victims of Wes's fraud.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Even though Dawn wasn't responsible for Wes's crimes, she was still financially entangled with him. His LLC that he was laundering money through...
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
But of course, everything he'd bought for the couple, from their house to Don's shoes, could now be seized by the feds.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Dawn's life was on pause as she waited for the financial and legal reckoning.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
That's when Dawn got another unexpected call. From, of all people, a new woman Wes had started dating. She wanted to meet Dawn in person.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
His name was Wes. Wes was an oil man, as they say in Texas, and he had a smooth-talking persona to match.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
It wasn't until that moment when someone else described her same experiences that Dawn realized what was really happening. The last few times she went to the swingers club with Wes, those nights she'd blacked out.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
This was more than a betrayal. It was a crime. He drugged and sexually assaulted her. She was still processing this while in the middle of an SEC investigation where the government could be justified in seizing everything she had. It left her feeling overwhelmingly empty and alone.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Every day felt excruciatingly long. Dawn says she got through it for her daughters. And Wes, well, he'd already moved on, to say the least.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
He might have been telling his family that he was innocent, but that's not what West told the government. He agreed to a plea deal with the FBI. Now he was awaiting sentencing. Finally, they could move forward with their divorce.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Dawn was relieved to keep the modest half of what the government left her. But Wes still wasn't done with her. Despite it all, he still kept reaching out to Dawn. She didn't reply until finally.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
What am I going to do when I come out? He couldn't wrap his mind around the reality that he was going to prison. Considering what he'd done, Dawn was losing patience for him. She knew he was reaching out for sympathy, maybe for help processing, or maybe because he just didn't have anyone else left.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
And she kind of looked at me confused. He'd been lying to everyone, including his family. He'd also been stealing from his grandmother.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
It's been over a decade since the end of their relationship and since Wes passed away. I try to say I don't have any regrets.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Hard lessons for sure. Dawn endured so much in this relationship. We asked what the hardest part was for her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
That's probably the hardest thing. Part of Dawn's healing process is being honest, taking accountability for her actions.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
That night, he focused intensely on her. Wes laughed hard at her jokes, and the way he looked at her made her feel beautiful.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Dawn found happiness in starting a new career. I always wanted to be an esthetician, so now I own my own spa. That's what I'm sitting in, my little spa. She also found love again, this time with a man who was honest with her and treats her well. In fact, while we were on our call... Hi, honey. My husband brought me flowers. So sweet. Thank you, babe.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why did you want to tell your story?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Nico Arruca and Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Dawn told him about her husband and two daughters, but he didn't bat an eye. Honestly, she was surprised that he was single.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Against her better judgment, she gave him her phone number.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
That went on for about eight months. In the beginning, it was an emotional affair. There was nothing physical going on. And he stuck to his story about being single with no kids.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
After a few months, Wes finally came clean. He did have a wife. And a daughter, too.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
He confessed that he'd had a few affairs before, but this time with Dawn, it was different. They'd been talking every day for months, seeing each other once a week. And even though nothing physical had happened between them, Wes was in deep. This is what he told her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Wes was a preacher's son. No one in his family had ever been divorced, and Dawn understood that pressure. But after eight months, their emotional affair turned physical, and there was no going back after that.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
She was the first to take the leap, to leave her marriage. She wanted to start over, with Wes at her side. Not long after, Wes said he and his wife were also separating in order for him to be with Dawn. And a few months after that... We got engaged. They made their relationship public, spent time with each other's kids, and started building a new life together.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Dawn started bringing Wes around her family and spending time with his young daughter. His larger family wasn't ready to accept Wes's recent separation. Regardless, he and Dawn began envisioning a life together. Dawn had stayed home with her kids in the past and loved it. Wes said he could give that life to her again.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Dawn agreed to move to a small town outside of Dallas where Wes lived. His whole family was there too. He wanted to stay close to his daughter. Because he and Don weren't married yet, he decided to live separately. Wes lived with his mom, while Don and her daughters rented a small house in town.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
There, Wes got a new job in the steel business. And Dawn settled into her new life as a stay-at-home mom. The couple started making plans to get married.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
But in the middle of wedding planning, Dawn's cell phone got turned off. She assumed that Wes, as busy as he was, had forgotten to pay their bill. It was 2004, so she used her landline to call his office. He had been working at a place called Chaparral Steel.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
There was a long pause on the other end of the phone. Something wasn't right. Before she could get an answer about the job, the conversation took a different turn.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Dawn had moved her whole life and her kids to this small town. She thought it was for her and Wes to start a new life together. Turns out it was so he could be closer to his wife, who he was still living with. He was never separated.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
Within 10 minutes, both Wes and his wife were at Dawn's house, and they were fighting. I'm like, there's a cop episode up in my house right now. With hindsight, Dawn can joke about it now, but in the moment, her relationship with Wes was over.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
She had sympathy for him, especially as he was going through a mental health crisis.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
A few weeks after everything came to light, she took him back. Wes kept saying he was in the process of divorcing his wife.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
The whole situation was messy, destructive. But Dawn and Wes could finally be together for real this time. But of course, there was still that issue of his job or the job he said he had. When she asked about it, Wes confessed that he'd been fired from a string of jobs and he was too ashamed to tell her. She pitied him.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
He put so much pressure on himself to appear perfect, and it was taking a massive toll on him. So Dawn's strategy was to love him through this tumultuous time, to assure him that they would figure it out together. And pretty soon, he came to her with a new job prospect. He said, I have the opportunity to go back in the oil and gas business. He was working in the oil business when they met.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 23 - Dawn
She didn't want him to slide back into the toxic culture he'd left behind. But she knew she couldn't control him. Plus, it was a good job offer.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
It's so interesting. It's like no matter the amount of conversations and things that you think that you're navigating and communicating, your brain just doesn't go to this worst case scenario. You just don't go there.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
It's impossible to even ask this, but like. What are you going to do about this anger?
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
All of it feels like such an injustice. And sometimes you just need to like scream it from the mountaintops and the person that really needs to hear it. You just want to just like shove, you know. Put it out there and scream it so that they hear you.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Progress is not a straight line. And there's a lot of similar rhetoric in this letter of where you were like in the beginning of a lot of things, you know, and you're going to make strides and getting yourself to a different place and then come back to these feelings that you have regarding this.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
And one day, I really do hope you find that whatever feeling that you're longing for, you get it on your own. Yeah.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
After the break, we'll hear from Stacey's son, Tyler. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
His goal is to be an advocate for male survivors of trauma.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Through Betrayal and through Tyler's posts, his story has reached a lot of people. We've received so many comments and emails calling Tyler an inspiration for speaking up. My producer met with Tyler and asked him how it feels to get all that positive feedback.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
For so long, Tyler thought he'd take what Justin did to him to his grave.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
But when it came out that Justin had abused Tyler's friend, Tyler's family was concerned that he too was a victim. They kept asking him until he eventually disclosed to his aunt. Many male victims of sexual abuse keep what happened to them a secret for their whole lives. For example, Anthony Edwards, an actor Tyler spoke with in season three, didn't disclose for decades.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
I also wanted to hear about Tyler's career. When we last talked, he was considering going into the military. But it's always been clear to me that fitness is Tyler's first love. He even did a TikTok about it.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
When I was with Tyler last, he took me to the gym and we had a great time. So I was excited to learn.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Earlier in this episode, Tyler's mom, Stacy, told us that Justin is appealing the length of his sentence and his ability to contact his children. We asked Tyler what he made of Justin's appeal.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
At this point, Tyler feels sorry for Justin.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Tyler's referencing the fact that Justin encrypted his computer when he knew the authorities were onto him. Tyler still thinks about that years later.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Hi guys, it's Andrea. In just two weeks, we'll be back with a brand new season of Betrayal. We'll be telling one story over several episodes. I'll take you to Colorado, where we'll do a deep dive into a betrayal of family and community. But before that, we wanted to give you an update on our family from last season. In season three, we told you the story of Stacey Rutherford and her son Tyler.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
At the end of the chat, we asked Tyler what else he wanted people to know.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. Also, please be sure to follow us at Glass Podcasts on Instagram for all Betrayal content, news, and updates. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Produced by Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Special thanks to Stacey Rutherford, Tyler, and the rest of Stacey and Tyler's friends and family. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Salvecchio. Editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Stacey was a single mom when she met Justin. She knew on their first date she would marry him, and she did. He was funny, adored her children, and had a bright future as a family physician. Together, they had two more kids. Stacey loved Justin and the family they created. After years of uncertainty, she finally felt grounded in stability. But Justin was hiding a dark secret.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
For years, he was sexually abusing Tyler, Stacey's eldest son. Once he was caught, he tried to organize a murder-for-hire plot to kill Tyler and prevent him from testifying in court. For these crimes, Justin was ordered to spend decades in prison. We'll hear from Tyler later in the episode. But first, I wanted to share a conversation I had with Stacey
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Over the winter holidays, she called to let me know that there was an update in Justin's case. Their family's legal battle wasn't over yet. The last time you walked out of the courtroom was for the murder for hire that happened last year. And that was like, OK, this is finally like we can close the book and move on with our lives. Did you think that you were done with this?
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Stacey eventually spotted a change on Justin's docket sheet, and then she got formal notification in the mail. The appeal was happening. What is he appealing exactly?
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Originally, Justin was sentenced to 26 years and 10 months to 70 years in prison, with 12 years probation to follow his sentence. The judge also ordered that Justin was to have no contact with Tyler or his two younger siblings for the length of his sentence, even once they became adults.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Right. I can understand and hold space for when they are adults. Yeah. You know, as a mom, like wanting to look to the future of your kid, having agency as an adult and being able to give them that agency. I can understand that. Yeah. Stacey has not had contact with Justin since she learned about his plot to kill Tyler. It's been over two years.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
But recently, she started writing letters to him as a way of dealing with her emotions.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Like, where is all this anger and emotion coming from recently?
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Stacey decided to mail one of her most recent letters. In this letter, she mentions Nanny D. Nanny's like a mother to Justin, and she's the only one who's remained in his corner. Stacey also writes about her financial situation. Justin was the breadwinner in the family. With him gone, Stacey's been left holding the bag, supporting her two young children on her own. Here's the letter.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Nanny asked me the other day if you could have the kids signed up for a charity that provides toys for children of incarcerated parents. And I can't help but think the last thing we need is more toys. If in the next few years we may not even be able to afford a home to put those toys in. Yeah, that's my reality these days. That's your children's reality these days.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
I see no light at the end of this tunnel. I remember you telling me I'd never have to live like this again. And I'm worse off. So when you heard about the kids' charity of toys of incarcerated parents, was your first reaction anger?
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Justin has a private attorney, and this infuriates Stacey. He somehow has the money to pay for his appeal, but has contributed nothing to the care of their children.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Right. It kind of just seems like he wants to be able to contribute in this way, but he's not understanding the larger impact that all of his actions have put you and the kids in. Like, it just felt like you were shaking him with this letter of like, you don't really know how bad things are because of everything that you've done.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
In December, right around the holidays, we caught up with Stacey Rutherford, whose story we highlighted in Season 3. Recently, she wrote a letter to her ex-husband, Justin, while he remains in prison. Stacey shared that letter with us. there's this theme in your letter where you talk about, you know, you promised me that things were going to be different. Like I'd already gone through a divorce.
Betrayal: Season 4
S3: BONUS EP 1 — An Update from Stacey and Tyler
I had already gotten pretty far on raising two kids to end up in this place. That's a really intense cycle to be thinking about.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Once they got married, Alan and Jan were both busier than ever. He had a heavy caseload and would often work late into the night at his practice. Meanwhile, Jan was charging ahead with her master's in psychology, which eventually turned into a PhD and then a postdoc.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Alan wasn't exactly the romantic type, but life with him was steady, easy.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
It was comfortable. Becoming a psychologist was Jan's sole focus.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
They stuck to the same old routine as the years ticked by. Then, in 1984, 10 years into their marriage, Jan noticed a change in Alan. It started in November when she traveled to Arizona to be with her parents. She'd come down with mono, so she went to recover where it was warmer.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
She stayed in Arizona for three weeks. When Jan got better and returned to Michigan, Alan seemed disturbed. He was panicked. She'd never seen him like this before. And he continued to spiral downward for months. And by May of 1985, they decided to admit him to a psychiatric hospital for a few weeks of intensive mental health care.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
What did that mean? The phrase didn't make any sense to Jan.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
He was having a psychotic break. Eventually, he was released from the hospital, and he seemed much better. But Jan couldn't shake the feeling that something wasn't quite right. And that feeling only grew as spring turned to summer. One day, Jan was gardening out back.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
It was a small detail, but one that didn't sit right with her. Neither she or Alan smoked, and they didn't have a gardener or a housekeeper. So that meant someone had been standing outside her kitchen window, smoking. Jan imagined a stranger just lurking in her backyard, watching her through the window. She checked every room in the house, in the basement, all around the perimeter.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
No one was there. Alan was at work, so she left him a message at his office. But he never returned her call.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Was someone casing the house and planning to rob them? Her mind went to dark places.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Alan explained that he wanted to show his colleagues this album. He didn't understand Jan's concern. Even with this explanation, she still felt uneasy, especially when... We started having hang-up calls in the middle of the night.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Jan didn't know who he was asking for, but every few days, this man would call back in the middle of the night, and every time... I said it was the wrong number, and I hung up. But nothing was more unsettling than what happened one evening in the beginning of July.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
If one of these things had happened, sure, she could have chalked it up to paranoia. But the cigarettes, the photo album, the hang-up calls, being followed? Something was off. And Alan wasn't taking it seriously.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. This is our last Betrayal Weekly episode for a little while. We'll be back in May with a whole new season of Betrayal. It'll be one story told over multiple weeks. And after that, we have more Betrayal Weekly episodes coming.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Then on July 13th, 1985, Alan didn't come home for dinner at his usual time.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Jan woke up the next morning without Alan in bed beside her. He had still not returned. She called friends and family and co-workers of his. No one had seen him. So after 24 hours, she reported him missing.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
With each day, she grew more and more panicked. He could have been in a car accident or a carjacking. He could have been mugged or kidnapped. After all, it was Detroit in the 80s.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Jan needed support. Her parents flew in from Arizona to be with her. But they weren't the only ones at her door.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Jan waited. A week went by. Then eight days. And nine days.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
The detective was outside the building, waiting for her when she arrived. They went up in the elevator.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Right now, we're actively working on new stories. So if you have a story you'd like to share on the podcast, write to us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. In the meantime, we have some spectacular bonus content, including updates on cases you've heard on Betrayal Weekly. We're also interviewing experts and getting their opinions on the stories you've heard.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
We can't wait for you to hear what we have coming up. Now, on to this week's episode. This is Jan Canty's story. She grew up in Detroit in the 1950s and 60s. It was an era of social change, a time when protests erupted across the country and people demanded equality. It all informed the woman Jan became.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Jan Canty's husband, Alan, had been missing for over a week when she got called into the Detroit police station. The investigators suspected that Alan had been murdered, but they didn't have his body. They'd been investigating his disappearance and found something surprising. Alan was well-known in Detroit's Red Light District. He was often there spending money on sex workers.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Jan knew her husband to be a bookish, bashful man, a psychologist who spent his free time reading.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Jan was incredulous. But with no other leads, she took the detective's advice to take a look at Alan's finances.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
A few days later, as she was still making sense of the finances, she got another call from the police. They had more intel.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
The detective explained to Jan that they would need to go to the morgue.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
The detective held her up on one side as her dad held her up on the other. The experience was incredibly traumatic. Jan can't even remember who was in the room.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
The detective snuck Jan out the back. Camera crews were waiting for her out front. The story had become national news. On the way home from the morgue, Jan laid down in the back of the police car. Jan could no longer deny the reality. Her husband was dead. And he was murdered by people she'd never heard of. And who were these people? Well, they were still at large.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Jan didn't want to look at the TV, but her dad insisted.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Their names were John Carl Fry Sr. and Dawn Marie Spence. As Jan watched the news, she found out for the first time who these people were. Dawn was a sex worker and John was her boyfriend. The media ran with the story of a wealthy psychologist being sucked into a dark love triangle. But could that be true? Jan still couldn't fathom it. And I'm still like, Al?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
The man she knew was quiet, intellectual, earnest. Someone who'd get wrapped up in a world like this was a different Alan Canty entirely. Jan barely had the basic facts of the case. She didn't even know how Alan met these people and what their relationship really was. But she didn't have the time to look for answers.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
After all, she had been followed. The fear and stress were taking a massive toll on her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Alan had led a double life, one she still didn't have a clear picture of. She was deeply betrayed, but she was also grieving.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
With Alan dead, there was nowhere for her anger to go. He couldn't answer for what he'd done. And to make matters worse, Alan had kept financial secrets, big ones.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Jan didn't know what possibilities were out there for her. She loves learning, but she didn't love school.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
It took two years for Jan to get on steady ground after Alan was murdered. And during that time, she was still unaware of who her husband really was and what he had truly done. Then, in 1987, Jan got approached by a reporter. He was writing a book about Alan's case. At first, Jan tried to shut the book down. She didn't need anyone showing up on her doorstep again. digging up old wounds.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
So she did. And through the reporter's findings, the other Alan Canty finally revealed himself. Here's what she learned.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
All those late nights that he was working, he was really with these women. It was like he had a pathological desire to save women in need. So when his mother gave Alan $500 for his 50th birthday... He took that money and spent it on Dawn.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
This was when Jan was sick with mono and resting at her parents' place in Arizona. Jan thought back to that birthday call when Alan started to cry. Originally, she thought it was out of concern for her health.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
The guilt apparently subsided, and Alan continued to spend time in the red light district where he met Dawn. There, he wasn't the sheepish guy Jan had known. Even smaller details didn't square up with what she knew about him.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
The other Alan spent his nights with Dawn at bars, and the reporter told Jan something that changed her understanding of the whole dynamic. Before Alan died, he'd been hanging out with Dawn and John for nine months. For most of that time, Alan wasn't paying Dawn for sex. They stopped having sex. They only had sex the first two months. So what was the point of their relationship? Could it be drugs?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
If she could have dropped out of high school, she would have. So college wasn't part of her plan. She didn't even know how to apply.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
The reporter turned to Jan for an answer. And in her gut, she knew. It was an addiction of a different kind. An addiction to being needed.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Of course, Don and John got something out of this relationship too. They were in it for money. Jan was able to figure out just how much Alan had given them.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
This was Alan's M.O. He got people to need him. But this time, Alan was mixed up with some very dangerous people.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Remember those phone calls Jan got in the middle of the night? The ones from the man with the southern accent?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Alan had lied and said he was a widower. So when John called the house and heard Alan's wife on the line, he was surprised. Then he got an idea. He could use that information to extort Alan, to threaten his wife, in exchange for more and more money. And they drained him dry.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Near the end, Alan started to see the writing on the wall. He was running out of money to give them.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
That led to Alan's psychotic break, or what Jan had thought was a psychotic break. She remembered that phrase Alan kept repeating when he was in the hospital.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
To Alan, Jan and Dawn were total opposites. Jan was the woman he transformed into something good and clean and pure. Dawn brought out his dark side. But when Jan learned more about Dawn's backstory, it resonated with her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Looking for a little direction, she gave school one last try. She started taking classes at her local community college. And sure enough... I loved it. So different than high school. It was at community college that she took her first psychology course. It was a turning point. Working in psychology would mean helping others. Plus, she found it interesting.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Jan learned of at least four other women he supported financially. Jan herself had been that young woman with a lot of potential and no direction to go in. When she met Alan, her life changed too.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
And now, for the first time, she saw their relationship through his eyes.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
It's a strange feeling, especially considering that Alan helped her achieve so many dreams.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
The very things she loved about Alan were the ones that destroyed him and destroyed her life. John Fry was eventually convicted of murder and the mutilation of a body. He served the rest of his life in prison. John served 10 months plus three years probation for her role in the crime. As for Jan, she wanted to get out of Detroit.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
She's lived many lives since that time. She's taught and practiced psychology, traveled the world, gotten remarried. Still, she couldn't leave what happened with Alan behind completely. She continued to think about the man he'd been as both a victim and a perpetrator.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Dealing with this complicated grief and trauma made it hard for Jan to connect with people. Who could possibly understand what she'd gone through? But eventually, she found community in other homicide survivors.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Knowing people who shared even parts of her own experience gave her a deep sense of belonging.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Supporting and advocating for homicide survivors has become Jan's mission in life. We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why do you want to tell your story?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPod at gmail.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced by Caitlin Golden and Monique Laborde with additional production by Ben Fetterman.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
As she began her studies, she was eager to start a life on her own. So she moved downtown and rented the cheapest place she could find.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Still, as cheap as it was, if she was going to continue to live there, she needed a job. A friend told her about a psychologist who was hiring. He needed help typing up a manuscript. This was right up Jan's alley, so she applied. And soon, she got a call asking for an interview.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
She went inside and immediately felt like a fish out of water.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
The psychologist's name was Alan Canty. Jan had been expecting a man who matched the building. Someone intimidating, formal, classy. Alan was anything but.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
The two of them hit it off. 20 minutes into the interview, Allen offered her the job. But before she left, she had a favor to ask.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Jan explained that she wasn't able to pay the exit fee for the parking lot. Alan just smiled.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
In the beginning, Jan and Alan's relationship was strictly professional. After all, he was 18 years older than her, well-educated. He came from a wealthy family. To Jan, Alan was elite and accomplished. He was someone to look up to.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
And I would talk about classes and what I was learning. He wanted to give her advice to be a mentor.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
He encouraged her to transfer to a four-year university and get her bachelor's degree. And he helped her pay for college by promoting her to receptionist.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Alan started giving her rides home at the end of the day. He liked looking out for her and she liked being cared for. After a few months, Alan asked her out on a date. It didn't really come as a surprise. Jan knew they had chemistry. For their first date, Alan drove her somewhere she'd never been before. It looked like a rundown neighborhood, and it looked dangerous.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
As Alan pulled up to a house, Jan thought for a split second that she might have made a terrible mistake.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
It was a fancy restaurant, one of the nicest she'd ever been to. And it was hidden, almost like a speakeasy. When they stepped inside, the place was decorated with real oil paintings, chandeliers, candles, and even roaming musicians. Jan was wowed.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
They were enjoying each other's company. Alan wasn't a standout when it came to his looks or his charm. He was shy, awkward even. But Jan felt a real connection with him.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Their attraction was rooted in conversation. Jan had never had a relationship like this before.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
And with Alan, she could. Here was someone on her level. They were spending all day together at work and then going on dates at night. Pretty soon, Jan could picture a real future with him.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
They couldn't wait to be married. Just a year into dating, they had a tiny no-frills ceremony.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
In the early 80s, she started her master's in psychology at the University of Michigan.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
During this time, Alan wanted to move into a bigger home in a more affluent neighborhood.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
And that's exactly what she did. Jan packed up her pillow, clock radio, and a suitcase of clothes. And she moved in with Alan.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
The new home he'd bought for them was a Tudor Revival mansion in one of the most exclusive suburbs of Detroit.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
When Jan agreed to move in with him, she only asked for one thing.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 31 – Jan
In a little over a year, Alan helped transform Jan's life. Before she'd met him, she was broke, living in a run-down apartment, searching for direction. Now, she was on the path towards becoming a psychologist. And she had a beautiful home in a wealthy neighborhood. At the time, she was grateful. But looking back now, she sees it all a little differently.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Before long, his career began bumping up against their relationship.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Abby nicknamed him the Commander. It was a joke at first, but it stuck. Because Richard couldn't seem to escape his career.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
This was jarring for Abby, and she demanded a reason why they were being followed. To her surprise, the commander began revealing some details about his career.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
He had been recruited to be the head doctor for prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. This was the mid-2000s, at the height of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The commander explained that there was intense infighting with personnel at Guantanamo. It had to do with classified information that wasn't being delivered up the chain. That's why he was being protected by men in black SUVs.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Abby tried to play it down, to act casual. But this was a big disclosure.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
I was just like, this is absurd. She wasn't even sure if she believed his story about the Secret Service. But then one day, his son called from California.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Now Abby needed answers. What had really happened at Guantanamo?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
This was 2008. At the time, the military claimed to be actively searching for bin Laden. So him being held at Guantanamo just didn't make sense.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Hey, it's Andrea Gunning. Our season of weekly stories is coming to an end, but don't worry, we'll be back soon with more episodes. So if you have a story of your own that you'd like to share on the podcast, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. In the meantime, we want to do something new and exciting. This month, we're taking short creative essay submissions from listeners.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Abby's new boyfriend, Richard, made some pretty surprising claims. Biggest of all, that Osama bin Laden was being held at Guantanamo and that he had treated bin Laden for medical issues. This was the early 2000s and bin Laden was one of the biggest fugitives on the planet. So Richard's story was hard to believe.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
The theme is resilience in the face of a devastating betrayal. We want to hear the story of how you healed scars and all. Here's the catch. The limit is a thousand words. If your story stands out, it might be featured in a bonus episode. Please save your submission as a PDF and email it to BetrayalPod at gmail.com. Okay, now on to the episode.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
But Abby knew for a fact that the commander worked in the Navy with a very high security clearance at that. She'd met some of his colleagues. So like a good journalist, she wanted to verify the commander's claim.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
She doubted the story but wasn't prepared to write it off entirely. Even if there was a remote possibility it could be true, it would be the biggest story in the world. And as someone who wanted to be a war reporter, that was undeniably enticing. She hit a dead end trying to fact-check the Bin Laden story. So instead, she decided to fact-check Richard. She started with one time when he said...
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
If that checked out, Richard's other classified projects could exist as well. Abby realized she couldn't fact-check the Bin Laden story. And after Richard shared that, he never talked about it again. He wanted a relationship separate from work. After all, the rest of his life was pretty tame.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
So it just seems kind of normal. And he met her family. Abby introduced him to her mom. He was a Jewish doctor. What's not to like? As their lives began to merge, Abby was ready to bring up a big topic of her own. I wanted to adopt.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
That conversation brought their relationship to a new level. It was like an unspoken marriage proposal.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
After six months together, Richard officially proposed. She said yes. It's true, the ring was nothing extravagant, but they both knew they wanted to be together. And in keeping with their low-key attitude, Abby began planning for a small wedding, maybe the next year. They weren't in a rush.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
They made plans to move in together in Washington, D.C.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
The apartment was being paid for by the Navy, but even still, Abby didn't like the Watergate or DC.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
It didn't help that the commander was always traveling for work.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
And when he came home, he struggled to keep his eyes open. He's a drag.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
She chalked it up to him being a bit older and traveling so much for work. But Abby still had her mindset on the future.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
He was changing. He wasn't the accommodating and doting man she'd met. That guy was rarely around. And one day...
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Maybe he was stressed out with work or maybe he was having cold feet. Shortly after this conversation, Abby confided in her mom.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Abby was defensive in the moment, but her mom's suspicion rubbed off on her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
One night at dinner with Abby's parents, the commander made a big show of complimenting a meal.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
They don't care. But as soon as they were alone, he told Abby the exact opposite.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
That small lie about the Brussels sprouts broke something inside of Abby. It was proof that he felt the need to compulsively lie. She was disgusted with him, but she wasn't prepared to call off the wedding. That was until a few weeks later.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Richard had told Abby that his kids knew and that they were happy about it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
That night, she called off the engagement and the timing turned out to be pretty convenient.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
And I finished my degree. In the wake of the breakup, Abby second-guessed herself. I felt bad.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
A few months after the breakup, she was in D.C. for school. And one night, she was in a cab driving by the Watergate.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
She told Richard she needed to get a few things she left behind. So he let her up.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
There was no way he moved out of the apartment and put a tiny, used-up sliver of soap back in the exact same place, stuck to the same bath tile.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
That's Abby Ellen. She's an independent journalist for outlets like The New York Times and Washington Post.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
She knew he was a liar. But how big of a liar? She wouldn't find out for another year and a half.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Storytelling comes naturally to her. Even as a kid.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Abby hadn't talked to Richard in over a year. When a DC number cold-called her, she assumed it was him. But to her surprise, it was a special agent with NCIS, the Naval Criminal Investigative Service.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Abby's name had shown up on a list of falsified narcotics prescriptions. Scripts written by a Navy doctor named Richard.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
To say she's curious is an understatement. When she was in elementary school, Abby was on a children's show called Romper Room. It was popular in the 1970s. On the show, the host would hold up a magic mirror, and through it, she would pretend to see straight into living rooms across the country. She'd name dozens of children who were watching the show.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
I mean. The phone call didn't upset Abby. In fact, she was excited because maybe she was finally going to get answers about Richard. I thought maybe this is the culmination. Everything's kind of coming to a head.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
It turned out Richard wasn't working with special forces on secret missions. He was actually a Navy doctor working at the Pentagon.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
He forged hundreds of opioid prescriptions using the names of his co-workers and his family.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
He'd been caught filling scripts at the Pentagon's pharmacy. It was a brazen scheme. What was he doing with all those painkillers?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Presumably, Richard was taking the pills himself. At least, that's what he later claimed to a judge. Abby thought back to dinners with the commander, the ones where he was falling asleep at the table. In hindsight, that was her only clue that Richard could have been taking opioids. So, I kicked into journalist mode. She tracked down Richard's ex-wife and gave her a call.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
His ex-wife knew Richard had a girlfriend, but it wasn't Abby.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Abby would call one woman who told her about another. It was like a phone tree of Richard's ex-girlfriends. That's how she found a woman who'd been engaged to Richard. At the same time, Abby started dating him. And... Her name was Christine.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Christine never knew why Richard disappeared. Abby had the other half of the story.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
But Richard's romantic con took an even darker turn. The last woman he'd been seeing was named Gail. Richard had been her college boyfriend. When Gail was diagnosed with breast cancer in her 60s, he reappeared.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
He swept Gail off her feet. He even claimed he could help her beat cancer. After all, he was a doctor.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Gail was the last woman Richard conned before he got caught.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
When NCIS informed Gail about the fraudulent prescriptions in her name, she was so angry she flipped on Richard immediately.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Kids at home thought she was talking directly to them through the mirror. As a kid, Abby knew the magic mirror was faked. And when she was on the show, she was determined to figure out how.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Gail passed away shortly after that. Her story is the one Abby still thinks about. If there is a hero here, she says it's Gail. Richard ultimately pled guilty to two felony charges of prescription fraud. In his sentencing hearing, he told a judge that he'd become addicted while he struggled to cope with his girlfriend's terminal cancer diagnosis.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Between that and his history of military service, the judge went easy on him.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
After Abby found out about Richard's crimes, she began parsing out every lie he ever told her. Bin Laden, Richard never treated him at Guantanamo. The Secret Service wasn't following him or his kids. He had never been a Navy SEAL because Abby found a Navy SEAL impersonation expert who checked military records and confirmed it. And those screaming nightmares Richard had?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Well, the SEAL expert said fake nightmares are a common feature of con artists like Richard. Abby had been duped.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Thank you. She titled her book Duped. Once she got started on it, she realized it was about much more than just her own experience. It was about the experience of being lied to.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
So that was my book. Abby never blamed herself for believing Richard's lies. You know... What's the worst thing you did?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Working on her book, she researched experts on deception, like Dr. Jennifer Fried, who coined the term betrayal blindness.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
And she even explored the stigma around being deceived, that feeling of self-blame and stupidity when we've been lied to.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Abby turned Richard's betrayal into a story, a story for herself and for the world.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Instead of covering international relations, today she mostly reports on fraud. I think it's fair to say that it changed the trajectory of my career.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
And thanks to her experience with Richard, she's learned a few things about herself.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
We end all of our episodes with the same question. Why are you sharing your story?
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
And I was like, see, I got to the truth. Fifty years later, she's still that same person.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPOD at gmail.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
That dogged curiosity has motivated Abby's work for decades. When she first started her journalism career in New York City... I could have gotten a job like in The Devil Wears Prada.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Instead, she got her start writing for women's magazines. It was the 90s, when magazines still ruled the media landscape. And Abby had to start at the bottom of the ladder. The women's magazines had you do, like, quizzes.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
She wanted something more hard-hitting. So she started cold-pitching stories to the New York Times. And she finally got a story accepted. It was an expose on simulated military boot camps for civilians.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
He wanted Abby to write for it. So for the next five years, she wrote a column about young people and money for the business section of The New York Times. She was in her late 20s. The stars were aligning for her career and she was building a life for herself.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
On her mother's advice, Abby bought her first apartment. It was a loft in New York City. She had everything she wanted. Even dating came easily for Abby. Oh God, men were everywhere. Men were everywhere. In her 20s, her relationships usually ended because he was more into her than she was into him.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
In her 30s, she dated more seriously. But none of the guys were quite right.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
I wanted something that mattered. Abby had traveled the world, reported for prestigious publications, and made friends in every corner of the city. But there was one thing she still hadn't experienced. Again, I didn't care if I got married, but I wanted to be madly in love. She wanted to be madly in love. By the time she was 40, she started looking for love in new places.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
After a string of relationships with struggling artists, she thought she'd try something more traditional. First, she went with the conservative Wall Street type. Then she thought... I'm Jewish.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
On a lark, her friend recommended a psychic. Apparently, she had great insights on love.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Around the same time, Abby was working on a piece for The Times.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
This Beverly Hills doctor gave Abby a great quote for her article. We're going to call him Richard.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
A few months later, she had to call Richard again to fact check the article.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Richard had been a Navy SEAL in his 20s, then left to go to medical school. After decades of private medical practice, he rejoined the Navy to work on special projects.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
At the time, Abby wanted a new beat. She wanted to report on international relations. I was looking to do something different to expand my career.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Richard was a good source, someone who might have stories and connections she would need.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
At first, it was regular updates about his job in the Middle East. And then we began talking more and more. They started writing to each other every day, and she learned more about Richard's personal life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Abby had just been accepted to an international relations master's program. It was in Washington, D.C., where Richard was headed next. By this point, their conversations veered into flirtations. So when they found out they were both moving to the same city...
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Their flirtation expanded into late night phone calls and surprise deliveries.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Richard was mature and accomplished. He was a doctor. Maybe this was the guy she'd been waiting for.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
After months of talking, Abby emailed him a poem. So I thought, all right, I can woo. I'm going to send it to him. She knew this poem was his favorite.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
She'd only been talking to Richard for a few months. But when she got his reply, she smiled. Richard was scheduled to be in New York the following month. Abby hadn't started school yet and was still in town. So they decided to meet in person for the first time.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
He made a reservation for them at the Four Seasons restaurant. It's now closed. But in the early 2000s, it was one of the most glamorous date spots in New York.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
On the night of their date, Richard met her in the lobby, wearing his white Navy officer uniform. As he walked towards her, she realized... This was the man in uniform, the one the psychic had foreseen. Richard even brought her a gift.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
They walked into dinner hand in hand, Abby wearing his white navy cap. And at dinner...
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
That was the beginning of Richard's regular visits to New York to take Abby out on romantic dates.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Richard had two kids by his first wife. And even though he lived apart from them, he was still a family man.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
And then there was his illustrious military career. He was constantly traveling for work.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Abby was the kid who needed to know how the magic mirror worked. And now with Richard, she wanted to know about his classified military projects.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: EP 27 - Abby
Her intrigue turned to concern when Richard began having horrible nightmares. He would just have these screaming nightmares. And so he had to sleep with the lights on and the TV on. When she asked, he brushed it off. All he would say is that he had bad memories, things from the military that he couldn't talk about.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
And one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Nobody Should Believe Me — S5 E1
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
This is where Jessica Baum jumped in to offer her expertise.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
We're having a conversation with a listener named Elizabeth. Her best friend is stuck in a state of denial, trying to repair with a husband who sexually abused her daughter. Watching her friend Sarah make this decision is excruciating, because for her, it's bigger than their friendship. It's about Sarah's 19-year-old daughter. Elizabeth watched Sarah's daughter grow up and helped care for her.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
They're like family. Here's Elizabeth.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is a special bonus episode of Betrayal. A few months ago, we got an email from a listener that stood out to our team. We're going to call this listener Elizabeth. She had watched season two of Betrayal on Hulu, which tells the story of a stepdaughter that was violated by her stepfather.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
Elizabeth wrote to us because the same thing was playing out in her own life, or rather, in her best friend's life. Elizabeth and her friend, we'll call her Sarah, have been close for 13 years. They used to live in the same apartment building. Their daughters were around the same age. Sarah was raising her daughter with her new husband, who became her stepdad, the only father her daughter knew.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
Our listener Elizabeth has been taking this all in. And through the conversation, she realized that it's not just about what she should say to her friend. It's about her own experience of watching Sarah make this choice. For Elizabeth, that might be a decision she can't overlook.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
Elizabeth and Sarah's families became close. They planned joint family vacations and shared holidays. Elizabeth felt like an aunt to Sarah's daughter, who is now 19. A few months ago, Sarah texted Elizabeth, saying she needed to talk. It was an emergency.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
Conversations like this can be triggering. They incite judgment and anger. We felt it as we produced this episode. But like Elizabeth said, she's not the only one. We just hope this episode finds the people who need to hear it. I want to give a special thanks to Jessica Baum, Ashley Trujillo and our anonymous listener, Elizabeth.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
If you're interested in learning more about attachments, we recommend Jessica Baum's book, Anxiously Attached, becoming more secure in life and love. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com. We're grateful for your support.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad-free and one week early through the iHeart True Crime Plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
Plus, you'll get access to other charred-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
After Sarah found out, she confronted her husband. And he admitted to everything.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
Plus, you'll get access to other chart-topping true crime shows you love, like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, There and Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
Sarah went with her daughter to report the crime. And a few months later, her husband was charged with multiple counts of child abuse. He got out on bond and is awaiting his court date. But that's just the beginning of our episode because Sarah struggled to let her husband go.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
When Sarah first found out, she cut off communication with her husband. She ignored his texts, begging for forgiveness. But when he texted about everyday things, like chores and bills, she would engage. That progressed into longer phone conversations and visits. Then they started going to therapy together.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
Within a few weeks of the police report, Sarah's husband was back at home, sleeping in their bed. The night it happened, Sarah's daughter left the house. She went to stay with her grandparents. You may be wondering, what about Child Protective Services? Well, Sarah's daughter is 19 now, an adult. So legally, her stepdad was allowed back in the same house.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
Hi, guys. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season 4, a story of a cop and his double life.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
In the absence of a protective order, there was nothing law enforcement could do. There's limited interventions for adults in this situation. For Elizabeth, her friend's decision was unimaginable. It was so unlike Sarah, and it just seemed wrong.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
This is what Elizabeth wrote to us. She felt helpless watching her best friend let this man back into her life. She worried that saying too much might blow up the friendship and further isolate Sarah from the people who love her. But more than anything, she wanted to get through to Sarah because Elizabeth felt as though her friend was choosing her own attachments and needs over her daughter.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
And Elizabeth felt like that was the wrong choice. Our team has heard countless stories like this, to the point where we couldn't ignore this topic. Where loved ones watch from afar as someone lets an abuser back into their life. It's an incredibly painful thing to watch. People can draw boundaries that end relationships. It's something we can all relate to on some level.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
That's why we wanted to have this conversation. We saw Elizabeth's question as a way into a larger discussion about the role of loved ones in these cases. What can we say when someone isn't ready to end their relationship with an abuser? Elizabeth asked for advice from Ashley Trujillo, the subject of season two of Betrayal. Ashley has been through something similar to Sarah.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
Her husband, Jason, was arrested for possession of child sexual abuse material. Among the material in his stash were images of Avea, images he'd taken in secret. However, he had not been hands-on. And while Jason awaited sentencing, Ashley tried to salvage the relationship. She went straight into wifey mode, as she calls it.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
It wasn't until she saw the full discovery file against Jason that she finally decided to leave him. But those few months Ashley stayed with him have had lasting impacts on her relationship with her daughter. So we invited Ashley Trujillo to talk with Elizabeth, and she agreed. We also brought in Jessica Baum, a licensed clinical therapist, to help guide the conversation.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
Jess worked closely with Ashley during Season 2 of Betrayal. You'll hear more from Jess as the conversation unfolds. But let's start with Elizabeth and Ashley.
Betrayal: Season 4
Betrayal Weekly: Listener Mail - How Do I Help My Friend?
If you've heard season two, you'll know that eventually the glass shattered for Ashley. She finally saw Jason for who he was and the danger he possessed. Ashley's been repairing her relationship with her daughter ever since. She can understand Sarah's pain and why Elizabeth is desperate for Sarah to have that glass shatter moment. Second thing I wanted to say is how wonderful of a friend you are.
Betrayal: Season 4
Introducing the Burden of Guilt Docuseries
One of my favorite true crime podcasts has just been turned into a docuseries. Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning. Right now, you can watch the Burden of Guilt docuseries on Paramount+. Here's a sneak peek of what you're going to see during this three-part series.
Betrayal: Season 4
Bonus EP: Burden of Guilt The Docuseries
I've seen a lot of stuff over 30 years, you know, some very despicable crime and things that are kind of tough to wrap your head around. And this ranks right up there in the pantheon of Rhode Island fraudsters.
Betrayal: Season 4
Bonus EP: Burden of Guilt The Docuseries
I've seen a lot of stuff over 30 years, you know, some very despicable crime and things that are kind of tough to wrap your head around. And this ranks right up there in the pantheon of Rhode Island fraudsters.
Happy Face
Introducing: Betrayal: Season 4
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Joel Kern was a respected lieutenant at the Colorado Springs Police Department. But Joel used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline.
Happy Face
Introducing: Betrayal: Season 4
What did you do? Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. Did part of you know deep down that this was wrong? Yes.
Happy Face
Introducing: Betrayal: Season 4
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception, on and off the clock. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Murder on the Towpath with Soledad O’Brien
Exhibit A
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Murder on the Towpath with Soledad O’Brien
Exhibit A
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
Murder on the Towpath with Soledad O’Brien
Exhibit A
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Murder on the Towpath with Soledad O’Brien
Exhibit A
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Murder on the Towpath with Soledad O’Brien
Exhibit A
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
Murder on the Towpath with Soledad O’Brien
Exhibit A
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Murder on the Towpath with Soledad O’Brien
Just Say Yes
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Murder on the Towpath with Soledad O’Brien
Just Say Yes
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Murder on the Towpath with Soledad O’Brien
Just Say Yes
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Murder on the Towpath with Soledad O’Brien
Just Say Yes
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Murder on the Towpath with Soledad O’Brien
Just Say Yes
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Murder on the Towpath with Soledad O’Brien
Just Say Yes
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
Murder on the Towpath with Soledad O’Brien
Just Say Yes
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
Murder on the Towpath with Soledad O’Brien
Just Say Yes
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
At first, he said the Patrons were dreading that phone call from police, the call that would confirm that Richard was dead. But now any information would be welcomed information.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
We had the FBI on our side, but we understood that to move forward, we would need both families to participate. It's a painful process, but also an opportunity. The more you talk about a missing person, the more likely it is that someone who knows something will say something. But approaching these families, I knew I would be asking them to relive so much. It's tough.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Since Jimmy knew the Patrons from childhood, he made an introduction. So we started there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Marge Patron greeted me and my colleague Ben at her front door. It was a bright Sunday afternoon, nearly 19 years after her son Richard and his friend Danielle Imbo vanished. We needed to learn who Richard and Danielle were and understand everything they left behind on February 19th, 2005. We had been told that both families were done speaking to the press.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Think about it, the closest people to Richard and Danielle had to answer the same questions about their disappearance for over 19 years now. Yet here I was with my partner Ben, standing at the threshold of the Patron's family home to again pick at that scab. It took an introduction from Richard's childhood friend, many conversations, and Vito expressing the importance of participating.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
And much to my surprise and relief, Marge welcomed us with a warm, friendly smile. And just like I was told, she immediately wanted to feed us.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Marge is a grandmother as well as a mother of three. So hosting us seemed like old hat for Marge. Like we'd been over for dinner many times before, even though this was a first for all of us. And that day Marge invited us for Sunday dinner. And no, this isn't just a meal that happens to fall on Sunday. It's actually a long running tradition for the Patrons.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
That's when their family comes together for a big Italian meal. So we felt honored to be invited. It was just before Christmas and every inch of her house was decorated, including the kitchen. That's where we all gathered around a charcuterie board filled with sliced deli meats and cheeses while a huge pot of red gravy bubbled on the stove behind us.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Marge's freezer door was lined with several baby pictures and a ton of magnets. She pointed to the Chicago Bears magnet and said it was Richard's favorite football team. And then there was this.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
You might remember Susan Lucci from the long-running daytime TV show, All My Children.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Marge explained that she always watched All My Children and how one year for Christmas, Richard surprised her with this Susan Lucci doll.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
I could tell Richard is Marge's firstborn. She lights up at every mention of his name. Like how he played hockey from the time he was seven until the day he went missing and how she still holds on to Richard's Bobby Clark jersey. That's when her voice trailed off. And as the firstborn, you could say Richard got special treatment.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Christine and Elisa are Marta's daughters. Christine was also best friends with Danielle Limbaugh. She was supposed to join us for dinner, but Christine backed out at the last minute. Her sister Elisa gave us a clue as to why.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Alisa is well into her 30s now, but was just a teenager when her brother Richard disappeared.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
There was a row of stockings in the living room that hung across their mantle just above the fireplace. I couldn't help but wonder if Richard's stocking was one of them. We all moved to the kitchen table as Marge arrived with a giant bowl of stuffed manicotti and homemade meatballs. It was enough to feed a small army.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Marge pointed to where Richard sat for 35 years, and then to the empty chair where her husband used to sit. For 40 years, Marge and her husband, Richard Sr., owned and operated a Swedish bakery called Viking Pastries in the suburbs of Philly. That's where Richard and his father worked side by side. The two were very close. Richard Sr. suffered multiple strokes and hasn't been home for a while now.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
You know, I don't want to say that life hasn't gone on for the Patron since Richard disappeared, because it has. But I got the feeling that Marge in particular has been sort of treading water ever since that day. The void Richard left was on full display that Sunday.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Back on February 20, 2005, Richard didn't make it home for Sunday dinner.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Marge said she was out running errands with her husband that afternoon, and she was certain Richard was home. It was the day of the Daytona 500, and Richard had been looking forward to it all week. She's not home, Mom. Christine called Marge from the salon where she worked. She was concerned about Danielle. Yeah, the same Danielle who was with Richard the night before.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Marge and her son Richard were close. They usually talked multiple times a day. But that Sunday, she hadn't heard from him.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
One thing to keep in mind. Back in early 2005, most of us had flip phones and texting wasn't common yet. So when our phones rang, we'd actually answer them. The fact that Richard wasn't answering his phone immediately concerned Marge. Christine said the same thing with Danielle.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Marge's sister lived down the street from Richard, so she had a spare key and headed over to the apartment. She didn't see Richard's truck parked out front, so she unlocked the door and went inside.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Richard's dog Bismarck was in distress and needed to go out. His food bowl was empty and it was clear Richard had not been home for hours. From everything I've learned today, Richard was a reliable guy, not one to be out of touch. Leaving his family in the dark like this, it was out of character.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Christine and Marge feared the worst, but Richard's father wasn't about to jump to conclusions. Richard Sr. was a strong Italian father. He's as much brawn as he is brains. And what his wife was telling him, it wasn't registering.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
While the fear was hitting the Patron family, John Ottobre, Danielle's brother, was also realizing Danielle didn't make it home that night.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
At the time, John had been trying to support Danielle as much as possible. See, in the last 12 months, Danielle's life had gotten complicated. Danielle had recently separated from her husband, Joe Imbo. To make matters more challenging, Danielle and Joe welcomed their son together just two years prior. In February of 2005, Danielle was in uncharted waters.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
She was a single parent navigating custody of their 20-month-old child and deep in the throes of dissolving her marriage with Joe. Anything John could do to help his sister, he would, whether it be helping out around the condo or looking after the baby.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
So John packed up his tools and went about his day like he would any other.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
The divorce was nasty. Danielle's mom knew how bad it would look for her daughter if Joe dropped off her son, only to find out Danielle never came home that night and was currently MIA. You see, over the past few months, Danielle had been dating Richard Patron, and Joe knew that. She didn't want to give her soon-to-be ex-son-in-law any ammunition.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
It was three o'clock that afternoon when Joe arrived to drop off their son. That was the agreed upon time for Joe to end his weekend with the baby.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
It was always our intention to start our own investigation, but we had to ask ourselves, where do you start on a case when two people go missing? We started by retracing their last steps. We wanted to understand exactly where Richard Patron and Danielle Imbo were the night of February 19th, 2005.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Marge and her two daughters, Christine and Elisa, had dinner with Danielle Imbo and Danielle's mother at Chickie and Pete's, which is a popular Philadelphia restaurant. Think chicken sandwiches, cheesesteaks, crab fries, and beer. It's a sports bar with games on TVs everywhere, a good place to blow off steam after a long week. Here's Elisa, Richard's sister.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Toward the end of dinner, Richard called Danielle to see if she wanted to join him for the evening. Initially, Danielle wasn't sure, but eventually agreed. She was open to making the most of her child-free Saturday night.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Christine agreed to drop her off since Danielle's car was back at her condo in Jersey.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
And that's an important detail from Marge and something to remember. This was a spontaneous meetup between Danielle and Richard.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
As for Danielle, her brother John got the story of what happened from his mother.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Danielle had an appointment at a salon the next morning. It was the same salon that Christine Patron worked at. So it's our understanding that from Chickie and Pete's, Christine drives Danielle to meet up with Richard. And Richard and Danielle drive to Abilene's on South Street together.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Journalist Steve Vo covered the story for Philadelphia Magazine and explains what happened next.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
We heard Danielle and Richard spent a couple hours at the bar that Saturday night listening to a band.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
For Vito Rosselli, he lives with the impact of that reality every day. And one of the major factors that has stopped him from solving this case is the evidence, or lack thereof. This happened in 2005, when even basic equipment like security cameras were using outdated technology.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Today, we can track our friends. Everyone essentially has a GPS in their pocket. Plus, there's no shortage of documenting with people recording their life for the whole world to see. But in 2005, people had flip phones and MySpace. Even YouTube didn't come out until February of 2005.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
The community was concerned and law enforcement didn't have much to work with. After those initial days of the investigation, the FBI got tapped in. And the lack of evidence actually started to tell a story to Vito.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
The idea of Richard and Danielle getting hurt or skipping town got rolled out pretty quickly.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Vito and Jerry were adamant about one thing. After 19 years of dead ends, they were out of options.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Every February 20th, without fail, the city of Philadelphia is reminded of Danielle and Richard.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
They have not been seen in 13 years, despite an ongoing investigation. And for 19 years now, these segments go out. Tips come in, rinse and repeat.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Having lived here my whole life, I've watched the segment each February with the rest of Philadelphia. Now I have more of a context as to why. Just like that billboard I mentioned at the beginning, it's a lifeline thrown out for Richard and Danielle and their families. Anything to keep hope for justice alive.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
It's crazy for me to say this, but I think the FBI needs our help and your help. So do Danielle and Richard. The two left a crowded bar in a popular area of Philadelphia on a Saturday night two decades ago. And in those 20 years, we still don't know who wanted to harm them and why.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
That's John Ottobre. His sister Danielle went missing in February of 2005. But she wasn't alone. Danielle and her friend Richard left a bar and simply vanished. 19 years later, they still have yet to be found.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
If you have any information about the disappearance of Danielle Imbo and Richard Patron, please call the Citizens Crime Commission tip line at 215-546-8477. Or you can reach out to the show and our team by email at thereandgonepod at gmail.com. That's thereandgonepod at gmail.com. Thank you so much for listening. One way for you to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple podcasts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Don't forget to rate and review because five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. There and Gone is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass, Ben Fetterman, and me, Andrea Gunning.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
It's hosted and written by me, Andrea Gunning, with additional reporting and writing by Ben Fetterman. The series is also written and produced by Todd Gans. Our associate producer is Kristen Melchiorri. Research by Mason Klinder, Anna Hamilton, and Bella Ricci. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt DelVecchio.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Additional editing support by Nico Arruca. There and Gone's theme and original compositions were composed by Oliver Baines and Dari McCauley of Noiser. Music library provided by My Music. Special thanks to both the Patron and Antobre families. For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is There and Gone, South Street. Episode 1, Ghosts.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
A note that the views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals participating. This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable for everyone. Discretion is advised. For 15 years, Danielle and Richard were strangers to me, ghosts that loomed over I-95 South. It's the stretch of highway that connects Philadelphia to New York City.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Each side is lined with billboards. Most are ads for ambulance chasers or beer. But one shows two smiling faces next to the word missing. It's Danielle Imbo and Richard Patron, and it's been there for almost 20 years.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
South Street is one of the busiest and most popular places for nightlife in Philadelphia. At least it was in 2005. Think Bourbon Street, but without the balconies and beats. It's not exactly the same, but you get the idea. No shortage of places to grab a drink and have a good time. It's not a place where two people just vanish, and it's certainly a spot where you'd have plenty of eyewitnesses.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Two adults in their mid-30s walk out of a bar and into oblivion. How is that even possible? I live within walking distance of South Street. I've been to those bars and I've walked those same streets. I know how busy they are. So this has often haunted me. The story of Richard Patron and Danielle Imbo became an anecdote, a Philadelphia urban legend.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
If my team was ever going to produce a missing persons podcast, this was the one. And as I'll explain in a bit, it turns out we are way more connected to the story than I originally thought. When I begin working on a story, I usually reach out to law enforcement. From the initial research, it was clear the FBI was involved. So I decided to start there.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
That's Jerry Williams. She was an FBI agent and the spokesperson for the Philadelphia Bureau when Danielle and Richard went missing.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Vito. Special Agent Vito Rosselli. He has been working on this case since the very beginning.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Agent Rosselli had spent almost two decades tracking down every lead in this case, but came up short.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Special Agent Vito Rosselli looks and sounds like someone in a TV show who's playing an FBI agent. He's a stocky guy, muscular, with dark skin, and seems like someone you'd want to grab a beer with.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Vito is a warm and welcoming guy, but I could tell that he carries pieces of this investigation around with him, and that clearly rests heavily on his heart. I don't know how else to explain it, but there's a heaviness to that.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Just think about that. Not only are Danielle and Richard missing, but so is the Dodge Dakota pickup truck they were driving. And after 19 years of searching, Vito still has no physical evidence to work with. He's been trying to figure out who wanted to kill either Danielle and Richard without a fingerprint, a tire mark, or a single drop of blood.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
But maybe what's stranger than any of that is the why. Because on paper, neither of these two seem to have a target on their back.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Vito has a lot riding on this investigation. Obviously, he felt for Danielle and Richard's families. It's been on his plate since 2005. And all investigators will tell you they always feel like they're racing against time. But Vito had a different clock. You see, in the FBI, there's a mandatory retirement age of 57. And Vito's 57th birthday was fast approaching.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
I've met with Vito a few times now. After those conversations, it's become clear what Vito is missing. testimony, someone who heard something or saw something or remembers anything, anything about what happened on the night of February 19th, 2005. He just needs someone to come forward.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
This case was a big deal in Philadelphia, and to be fair, it did get national attention, but that interest lasted for like two months, because in May of 2005, an American teenager went missing in Aruba, Natalie Holloway, and the nation turned their attention to her. Slowly, Danielle and Richard faded from public consciousness, but Philadelphia hasn't forgotten.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
For a big metropolitan city, there is a small town feel here, and it's that close-knit community that keeps their memory alive. See, everybody knows everybody here, or at least knows someone who knows your sister or your cousin or used to work with that guy that you used to work with. All of that is relevant here. The city, its people, it's all important to this story.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Philadelphia is the city of brotherly love, and often love extends to loyalty, vows of silence when it comes to nefarious behavior. The FBI undoubtedly believes that there are people who know what happened to Richard and Danielle, but have remained silent. So why now?
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
I once heard this theory from law enforcement that when it comes to these types of cases, there are usually three windows of time to solve them. The first few weeks, the first year, and then the next best is the 20th anniversary.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
By the time this podcast launches, we'll approach the opening of that final window. Maybe after two decades, perhaps someone's own mortality will change their view and come forward with information. I approached my team about taking this on and knew my producing partner, Ben, would be interested because like me, he grew up in Philadelphia too. He knew this story as well as I did.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
But there was something I didn't expect. When discussing it with my colleague, Carrie, she went white. She looked at me and said, you know, my brother grew up with Richard Patron and was good friends with him, right? I had no idea. So she put me in touch with her brother, Jimmy.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Jimmy Hartman grew up across the street from Richard and the two immediately became fast friends.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
So Jimmy not only knew Danielle and Richard, but was even close with Richard's parents, Richard Sr. and Marge Patron.
Nobody Should Believe Me
Introducing: There and Gone
Jimmy said it's been tough to watch the Patron suffer all these years.
What Happened to Talina Zar
If I Go Missing - Talina Zar E5
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone, most of all his wife Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
What Happened to Talina Zar
If I Go Missing - Talina Zar E5
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
What Happened to Talina Zar
If I Go Missing - Talina Zar E5
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
What Happened to Talina Zar
If I Go Missing - Talina Zar E5
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. Caroline's husband was living another life behind the scenes. He betrayed his oath to his family and to his community.
What Happened to Talina Zar
If I Go Missing - Talina Zar E5
How far would Joel go to cover up what he'd done?
What Happened to Talina Zar
If I Go Missing - Talina Zar E5
This season of Betrayal investigates one officer's decades of deception. Lies that left those closest to him questioning everything they thought they knew. Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
What Happened to Talina Zar
If I Go Missing - Talina Zar E5
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
What Happened to Talina Zar
If I Go Missing - Talina Zar E5
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
What Happened to Talina Zar
If I Go Missing - Talina Zar E5
I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the podcast Betrayal. Police Lieutenant Joel Kern used his badge to fool everyone. Most of all, his wife, Caroline. He texted, I've ruined our lives. You're going to want to divorce me. How far would he go to cover up what he'd done?
What Happened to Talina Zar
If I Go Missing - Talina Zar E5
Listen to Betrayal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.