We Can Do Hard Things
It’s Not Too Late! How We Save the Planet with Dr. Ayana Johnson
Tue, 22 Apr 2025
404. It’s Not Too Late! How We Save the Planet with Dr. Ayana Johnson Glennon, Abby and Amanda speak with Dr. Ayana Johnson, a marine biologist, policy expert, writer, and teacher working to help improve our climate future. The joy of imagining what comes next for our planet, if we mobilize and engage in fostering climate solutions. How to create a personalized climate action plan: realistic things you can do on an individual and community level to help heal the planet. Why we’re not as satisfied with hyper-consumerism as we think we are and how we can get back to nature. For more, check out Dr. Ayana Johnson’s podcast What If We Get It Right? on Apple or Spotify. About Dr. Johnson: Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson is a marine biologist, policy expert, writer, and teacher working to help create the best possible climate future. She co-founded and leads Urban Ocean Lab, a think tank for the future of coastal cities, and is the Roux Distinguished Scholar at Bowdoin College. Ayana authored the book What If We Get it Right?: Visions of Climate Futures, co-edited the bestselling climate anthology All We Can Save, co-created and co-hosted the Spotify/Gimlet podcast How to Save a Planet, and co-authored the Blue New Deal, a roadmap for including the ocean in climate policy. She earned a BA in environmental science and public policy from Harvard University, and a Ph.D. in marine biology from Scripps Institution of Oceanography. She serves on the board of directors for Patagonia and GreenWave and on the advisory board of Environmental Voter Project. Above all: Ayana is in love with climate solutions. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: What are the key climate solutions we can implement?
If you pre-ordered the book from an independent bookstore, you don't have to buy it again to come to the event. Please register for the event by uploading your indie order at treatmedia.com. And just click the option that says, I've already pre-ordered from another indie. Okay, we'll see you there. Yay! We did it! We did it! Yay! How are you? It is such a treat to meet you. Good. I'm Glennon.
I'm Abby. I'm Amanda. It's so nice to be with you. Thank you for making the time.
Nice to meet you all.
This is really an honor to be with you. Look at that cute book you've got on your shelf there.
I mean, it's so cute.
Also, I was looking at it this morning and it's all like banged up, which I feel like is my only the books that I've really like grip brought into the bathtub with me carried in my purse. That's what this book has been. It's been on many journeys.
So glad you've brought that book into the bathroom. Yeah. Deeply honored. That's the first feedback to that degree that I've gotten.
It's her most precious space is the bathtub.
Not scrolling Instagram, but being like, climate solutions, where are we at? Let's take a poop about it. Yes.
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Chapter 2: How can we create personalized climate action plans?
We could ask that about like any number of things, climate or otherwise, right? There's so many things we know we should do. Like I should probably exercise more regularly and eat more vegetables and like go to bed earlier, you know? So to me, it doesn't seem unique in that way, but I think there's the word accountability that you mentioned already, like that's part of it.
We don't have a lot of accountability when it comes to how we show up necessarily as members of society. We have it maybe in our personal relationships, in our households, but as far as like our civic accountability or our community level responsibility, I feel like that's quite lacking in a lot of places. I have to create that for myself, right, with my friends. Like, what are we doing?
Who's doing what? Can we collaborate? Are there opportunities for action that I'm missing? I think a lot of people are thinking about that right now in terms of like the political context in America, too. Like, what can I do to safeguard the people in the places that I love? Requires doing something beyond your home.
So I think the reason that we're not charging ahead with all these climate solutions we have, there's several answers. I'm sure I'm going to miss some, but one is for so long, the problem was diminished. And it was that thing like, well, if it's that existential of a problem, like clearly someone would be doing something about this. Clearly the media would be taking this more seriously.
Clearly this would be like saturating the communications we received. If our quality of life on this planet, we're all at risk. And so I think there's that cognitive dissonance between this is a very serious problem. Say the scientists, you know, as it's reported, it's like scientists say those crazy scientists, scientists are concerned. Like, why are we not all concerned? Right. Right.
So there's this dissonance between the science, which can feel distant and like the way that's communicated to us. So the media has a big role to play in people not taking this seriously enough. And then the way it's often talked about is that the solutions are the provenance of like experts, of politicians who are writing the laws, of the engineers who are creating electric cars, right?
It doesn't often feel like something that everyone can pitch into apart from in this very generic, like March protests, donate, spread the word, lower your personal at home carbon footprint, which are all like great things to do.
But are not enough to get us there unless we're showing up in all these other ways like, are we supporting composting in our communities are we getting bike lanes installed right are we getting our own homes if we own them off of fossil fuels are we using all of the credits under the Inflation Reduction Act to put in solar panels and induction stoves while those tax credits still exist.
And all of these things that we have to think bigger than ourselves. And I think that's just a muscle that's atrophied this civic engagement, this community level engagement in making the world that we want. And I guess the best kept secret is it's just a better world.
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Chapter 3: Why is the conversation around climate accountability important?
We're protecting ecosystems that are absorbing all this carbon. We also have like just more beautiful forests and meadows to walk in and more butterflies and bees. Like there's just so much upside. Anyone who's driven an electric car is like, oh, these are just better.
so I feel like a lot of it is a comms problem and a lot of it is a greenwashing problem like for so long we've been told that the way it is is the best way and it's just not true when I learned the phrase now we're cooking with gas you guys remember yeah yeah no we're cooking with that's like yeah Johnny Carson was paid to say that by a fossil fuel company to popularize that term.
Before that, everyone was using mostly electric stoves. And then we're like, oh, well, the real chefs got to cook with gas. And this became the whole thing, right? Oh, my God. Exxon and other companies in the 70s, 80s, 90s knew their own scientists told them exactly what was going to happen from burning fossil fuels. They explored going into renewable energy.
And then they're like, yeah, this is the easier way to make up quarterly earnings that are high. So we'll just stick down this road. These were all deliberate choices made by A small handful of powerful white men, basically, if we're being really blunt about it. But it is now up to all of us to figure out how. to turn this around.
And so I think it's important to say that whether you're a teacher or a nurse or a project manager or in charge of procurement or booking guests on TV shows or an artist or whatever it is that you do, if there's a way that you can be part of pushing solutions forward, of helping people find their own roles, of just rolling up your sleeves and figuring out how you can help.
I mean, don't give up, I guess. Don't quit on the future of life on earth. That's like the one option I would like to take off the table for us.
Right. There's many reasonable responses possibly, but not giving up on the future of the planet doesn't seem reasonable. One of the parts of your work that feels so revolutionary, and I'm so glad you
just mentioned it feels like very in the zeitgeist of this moment in terms of what we're experiencing politically and civically is that it seems like the rise in power of Trumpism, it's really easy as a galvanizing force to be against something. That is very easy. It is harder to imagine and to galvanize people towards a vision of something better. You know, it's easy to break.
It's harder to make. And that is, I feel like what the moment that we're in and what you identify so beautifully is like that people only run toward what they can see. We know these solutions are there, but like we can't see that picture. We can't see that world that is different than the world we're in. And so if we could see it, we wouldn't have to convince people to run toward it.
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Chapter 4: What does a future with climate solutions look like?
Turning our lawns into biodiverse gardens that welcome butterflies and grow food that we can share with our neighbors and like feed to our kids. Would that be nicer than having to mow your lawn every weekend?
Totally. I don't know. Yeah. Totally. And I think what you're getting at, like what Glenn and I feel like I'm feeling it too. If we aren't connected with nature and we're so disconnected in a way that we are ordering things into our house and we're abusing our choices in a way. There is this part of me that when I do think about climate change.
I do have a part of me that's like, there's nothing I can do. And that feels so terrible that there's almost like a frozenness to me that I don't know how I can even move. But I think Glennon, what you're saying is like, When we're acting irresponsibly with nature, it will affect us. And we don't know that that part is the thing that might be able to instigate us.
Because we talk about this all the time on this podcast. Well, my intentions and being aligned and being in alignment with my life. It's like... wow, we really need to take it even more deeply into like the nature talk. We do need to get more because we are nature.
We're not the only species on this planet. There's like 8 million something other species we're supposed to be sharing this planet with. And I would say we're not doing a great job of that right now. And to remember that we are a part of nature instead of just living on top of it.
I remember when I was a kid, this is going to be a weird anecdote, but I grew up in Brooklyn in New York City and there was some sort of repair work going on with pipes and they were digging up the sidewalk. And I remember seeing this like rich red brown dirt under the sidewalk and just thinking like, there's dirt here. Like it just seems like concrete and asphalt, right?
Like you forget that we're just like building on top of nature. And so this is a little bit of just like wordplay, but I try to imagine what it would be like to live within nature instead of on top of it. And as we think about things like the wildfires in LA, that's what happens when you live on top of nature with this hubris that you can dominate it.
And like, you're not a part of these natural cycles. And it leads to like really awful, painful, devastating, lethal consequences.
Mm-hmm.
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Chapter 5: How can individual actions contribute to climate healing?
Chapter 6: What role do youth play in climate activism?
Yeah. And then you're done and you don't really have to think about it all the time anymore. And like your money is no longer funding the apocalypse, which is like, great.
Yeah. You know,
So please, everyone who's listening, this is a very concrete administrative task that you can do that would collectively make a really significant difference. And there's resources like bankforgood.org that has information on different banks that are doing right by the planet and greenportfolio.com on the investing side that has this curated set of resources there. So
I'm not going to give you like the answer, but those are two resources that are a good place to start. Okay. That was sort of a tangent, but everyone go do that one thing. So what is the work that he's doing is the second circle. The first circle is what are you good at, right? And then the third one is what brings you joy. And I kind of wish I'd named it like satisfaction or something like that.
Because when people think of joy, I think they think of giggling and skipping and just glee as opposed to feeling content and like gratified that you've done your part. Because to bring it back, there's like, oh, I spent a lot of time writing emails, which I wouldn't describe as joyful, but I do have amazing collaborators. I do feel really good about the projects that I'm a part of.
And that's what keeps me going. in this work, right? Don't pick the thing that makes you miserable, even if you're good at it, because there's so many other things that need to be done.
And so if everyone can just find their way to the heart of their own personal climate action Venn diagram, I think that would make so much more of a difference than if we each do some generic checklist of like vote, protest, donate, spread the word, lower your carbon footprint, even though those are completely important things to do.
If we're not leveraging our unique skills and superpowers, if we're not doing it in ways that feel delightful, that inspire us to keep going and do more, then we're just not going to get where we need to go. So that's my pitch. Everyone bust out your colored pencils, draw your Venn diagram.
And I kind of leave out the money part of it as a fourth circle, because for some people, it's not going to be your day job. Maybe it's more of the way you show up in your community. Although I think we can all in our day jobs, think about how to help make our companies or the ways we do business gentler on the planet too.
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Chapter 7: How can we shift from consumerism to sustainability?
that doing these things together is the answer, that being isolated, you can't solve climate change by yourself. So if we set that aside as an option, we also set aside the option of giving up on the future of life on earth, then it just becomes this very tractable question of, okay, what can I be a part of, right? This is not like everyone go start your own nonprofit.
It's like, what's happening out there that like I can contribute to and like make better and help grow. And I think because of the way our society is, structured right now, that's not our first thought. Our first thought is like, okay, well, what's my individual separate action as opposed to, is there an organization in my community already working on this that I could support?
What's going on out there? Because there's a lot of people doing a lot of cool stuff that certainly all of us on this call could help with and support. And I think that's a much more exciting way to approach this because it's also less lonely. And like the worst case scenario is you make a new friend doing a climate project in your neighborhood.
Yeah. You know, I'm listening to you thinking about how I have a little bit let myself get stuck with all of this. And I have allowed myself to go into some frozen existential dread at night, thinking about what this new administration is doing. And, you know, I was thinking about last night,
the idea that is constantly being thrown around now that we can just like throw away the planet and get another one.
We cannot all move to Mars. I'm just going to put that on the table. That's not how this is going to end.
But that's like an underlying pitch here. That is a pitch here. And how utterly devastating that is to consider in terms of even just being a mother on this earth, that leaving people on this planet and how disgusting of a, philosophy that is.
And then while you were talking, I was just thinking about you talking about mending a sweater and how I'm railing against leaders treating our planet that way, but in honor of my children, but my children constantly watch me throw things away that I don't need anymore. Constantly watch me donate, consume, you know what I'm saying though, not take care.
And it just makes me think of like the way we do the small things is the way we do the big things. If we were a culture who was morally disgusted by overconsumption in our homes, if we became people who didn't throw things away over and over again, just because something shinier and better came around, we would also be people who would never be considering throwing away our planet in general.
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Chapter 8: Why is it crucial to envision a better world for climate solutions?
And you'll sleep so much better at night if you're just trying, if you're contributing, right? Like no one of us can change the outcome of humanity's trajectory. But honestly, like even when I'm feeling overwhelmed, it's really reassuring to know that I'm trying. Like if I have on my gravestone, like she tried, I'll count that as a win, right? Like she wasn't a quitter.
She like tried to make the future a little better than it would otherwise have been. And so in one way, I want us to like raise the bar for ourselves. Like don't be passive observers of the decline of our society. Because also that feels like shit.
Yes.
And find a way to be a part of making things just better than they otherwise would have been beyond your household. Let's set the bar a little bit higher than that. And I think that's the part we miss. Like that feels good to be a part of solutions. Feels good. To team up with your friends and neighbors and your colleagues to do a cool project just like feels good.
And it can be super creative and there can be dance parties involved. I mean, the last page of my book is my anti-apocalypse mixtape. I'm like, we have to have the right soundtrack for this, you guys. If anyone wants to hear this, there's links on the book website, getitright.earth, where you can go listen to the playlist on Spotify or Apple.
If you just need some tunes to get you pumped and to help you feel all your climate feelings, I've got you.
That's a good start. That is a good first start. It is about feeling good, right?
I think it's about feeling useful, actually. That's specifically the word that I'm drawn to because there's so much debate about hope or fear and like, what's the better motivator? And I'm like, I don't know. I just try to be useful because I don't feel hopeful all the time. And I just want people to know that's okay. You don't have to be optimistic about
in order to find a way to make things better. So yeah, there's a poem in the book by Marge Piercy that's called To Be of Use. And I come back to that one a lot because I just think like, okay, well, how can I be useful in this moment? Not worry about being hopeful, but just focus on being useful. That's good.
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