Amin Elhassan and Andrew Hawkins launch their new show: First Fake. Amin and Hawk battle it out in a debate style program analyzing several topics they have done absolutely zero research on. Which of the two will come out victorious and which of the two will accidentally spit on the other? It's time to embrace debate. Then, Pablo Torre is here to tell us about his new episode of Pablo Torre Finds Out, but instead, he spends most of his time explaining to us how he is somehow "cool" and "a jock" on MSNBC. Plus, Jordan Brenner and Peter Keating of The Underdogs discuss the unwarranted stigma around analytics in sports. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
You're listening to DraftKings Network.
This episode is brought to you by Iams Pet Food. When you choose Iams dry dog or cat food, you can see a difference in your pet with your own eyes. Healthy energy in five days. Healthy digestion in 10 days. And healthy skin and coat in just 25 days. Satisfaction for you and them. Guaranteed are your money back. Feed Iams dry dog or cat food and see a visible difference.
Visit Iams.com slash difference to learn more.
This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online, and more personal info in places that could expose you to identity theft. That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second. If your identity is stolen, their U.S.-based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back.
Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com slash podcast. Terms apply.
Welcome to the Big Suey, presented by DraftKings. Why are you listening to this show? The podcast that seems very similar to the other Dan Levitard podcast. I'm sorry, I'm not going to apologize for that. In fact, the only difference seems to be this imaging.
I have been tempted in restaurants just walking past tables to grab somebody's fries if they're just there.
That hasn't happened to you guys? I've done it. And now, here's the marching man to nowhere, fat face, and the habitual liar.
Today's episode is sponsored by DraftKings. Stay tuned because you'll hear more about DraftKings and all it has to offer throughout the show. DraftKings, the crown is yours.
I want a Dan Lampin' Tart for Christmas Only a Dan Lampin' Tart will do No Stu, Gotts, Billy or Roy I want a Dan Lampin' Tart to play with and enjoy Christmas, only a deaf levitard will do. No Mike Ryan, Lucy, or Tony, I really like the deaf levitard, only the deaf levitard really likes to do. Mom says, Dan will eat me up, but then the teacher says, Dan is a gluten-free human.
I want a damn levitard for Christmas. Only a damn levitard will do. None of the coatings, not even smetting. I really like a damn levitard. Only a damn levitard really likes to do that.
This episode of the Dan Levitard Show is brought to you by Smirnoff. We do game days. Please drink responsibly. The Smirnoff Company, New York, New York.
That song, both strange and self-involved, not unlike our next guest. Pablo Torre finds out is the name of the very popular podcast that Nick Wright calls the world's most expensive podcast. We will get to that in a second. But Pablo, I need your help with Andrew Hawkins.
And Amin, both of whom say, and they've shown it, they've proven it, that they can fake a take on just about anything, especially in their area of expertise, if they have not seen the game the night before. We want to play first fake with Amin and...
Andrew Hawkins and I think I need to kick them out of the room in order to do this I don't think that I don't think I think that needs to happen in the other room uh in the penalty box and I need to ideate uh with you guys uh on what it is that we're going to do on first fake what is that what are the topics going to be there's got to be a football topic there's got to be a basketball topic they have no information and they're going to be able to fake it because I do believe Andrew Hawkins I believe this game's too easy for Andrew Hawkins not unlike with Matthew Stafford
that he gets bored by the easy elements of this game, and he can do the fakery better than he can do just, you know, whatever, going out there bored and giving you football analysis.
Dan, Amin is a master talker, right? He can talk about anything, any point, to anybody, right? I've seen it in action. Sober, not sober. I got my money on Amin to win the first fake.
I like the upstart. I like the novice. Andrew Hawkins has a polish that Amin doesn't.
He's not a novice. Guys, he's actively doing this for a living on ESPN. He's doing it right now.
This is a dangerous game that we're playing. Amin also is somebody who... famously, can talk to you about his own dreams for hours, and no one's sure if he made those up. So he seems very squarely in his wheelhouse.
Well, we need to have him. You know, I believe there's a competition going on now at Metal Ark for all the space and all the money and all the places where it is that we have to fight for the things that we believe in. And I believe when I call Andrew Hawkins a novice, I'm talking about around here. I mean, we've got a sage veteran who's been doing the take game and making fun of the take game.
He's old and tired, man. Look at his face. Yeah, what happened? Is he all right? Is he all right? I'm just saying, Andrew Hawkins comes in here. He smells good. He smells like confidence. He smells like I'd like to do all of the things better than these people around here do them. He's not coming here to be a peer. He's coming here to get past us.
He's already past us.
And I believe— Didn't Andrew Hawkins invent, like, a virtual reality system? I just saw that on the internet the other day. I was like, wait a minute. Is that Andrew Hawkins?
He's not some ragtag upstart, even around these parts. He walks in, he commands a room, he's the man.
Okay, you can do all you want in terms of supporting all the things Andrew Hawkins is. I believe he is those things as well. I also believe that he's about to dust Amin. No, says Tony. All right, let's take our bets now before we do this, because we're going to get to this in a second. But go ahead and take our bets. Just tell me who you got, who you got, one name.
The guy that's doing it presently, actively for ESPN. I'm going Andrew Hawkins. You know where I stand. I'm going to go with Amin.
This is his comfort zone. I got Amin.
Nah, Amin's playing hurt. I'm going to go with Andrew. Hawks confidence is too high right now. Amin Elhassan is absolutely going to destroy Andrew Hawkins at this.
Roy brought up a good point, though. He's playing hurt. Best ones do. You know what they tell their bodies? Not today. Not today.
All right, so this is pretty dramatic. Do you guys have a football question? I want to go football with both of them? Basketball with both of them? And then I want to go to a subject that neither one of them know anything about.
Well, you're hosting the debate desk, Dan. You're throwing out the football topic.
All right. Let's go to the other room and see what we have here. And again, this is all born of the Chargers beat the Broncos last night, 34-27. Fun game. Charger defense all of a sudden. Can't do anything right. There's an advantage to going first or going, there's an advantage to going second here. I will go out to you first, Hawk, on your area of expertise.
Can you please explain to me why Jim Harbaugh has been good at coaching defense, but why that defense, which was best for points per game the entire season, the last two games all of a sudden is getting shredded pretty good?
Look, when you're at this point in the season, you have to understand that things change, right? It's like that sophomore quarterback slump. You go out and you have a great first year, and then defensive coordinators adjust. They figure out what your tendencies are. This is what happens late in the season.
And for Jim Harbaugh, him understanding both sides of the ball when you brought him into Los Angeles, you knew that's what you were getting. Not just a guy who can—
tutor the quarterback with all the ability in the world but also his understanding of defense bringing in mentor and in these moments where they go down by a whole lot of points and they surge back because of that prowess because of that knowledge that he has on both sides of the ball december is when you get the most from your from your head coach
Look at this, Dan Levitard. He didn't even answer your question. He didn't even address your question. The question was, the defense is great and has been shredded the last two weeks. You know why, Dan Levitard? I'm going to tell you exactly why that's happened. Because they figured him out. Because the book was out. You know, he comes in.
Yeah, he's been in the NFL before, but he's been gone for a while. So a lot of guys, they don't know what he's doing, what he's thinking or whatever. So he comes in with some new stuff and everyone's like, oh, how do we adjust? But guess what? The NFL, if anything else, is a study league. It's a league where we get playbooks and other playbooks, and we watch, and we learn, and we make notes.
And we see what worked against other people and what didn't. And what's happened in the last couple weeks, Dan Levitar, is the league has figured him out.
I think Hawkins concedes defeat there because Amin spit in his face with a swollen lip. They take notes.
If you asked me which guy is the former football player dealing with a lifetime of football injuries, I'd be like, it's the guy with the fat lip who is cognitively impaired, but also very sharp right now.
Hawk, would you concede that Amin won that because he said, take notes in your face and spit spittle in your face?
He said it like twice, and it was a lot. I couldn't hold it in at that moment because I like tapped out by looking at his face. And then when I came back to, he was yelling notes with such emphasis. And I'm like, what is going on here?
All right, so 1-0 Amin, and it wasn't notes. It was notes.
Notes, yes.
Let's go to Amin now. Amin, please explain to me why it is that Joel Embiid cannot get along with Philadelphia, and if you believe he's not tough enough.
Well, Dan Levitard, I think when you talk about Joel Embiid, there's a lot of things going on. Number one is I never want to fault a guy for getting injured. Injuries happen. Brandon Roy, Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, there's so many great players, Bill Walton, whose careers were shortened and their legacies were impacted by injury.
At the same time, I don't think Joel Embiid does himself any favors when he talks in the media talking about, look at all I've done for the city, even though they haven't got out in the second round of the playoffs since Allen Iverson was on the sidelines there.
even though he came back not to run in the playoffs, but because he wanted to go to the Olympics, he came back for a good show of face to play in the playoffs for the Philadelphia 76ers. These little things, these little microaggressions, as these kids like to call it, those are the things that do not endear him to a city that otherwise would love him.
Also, one last thing, he ran the scapegoat out of town. If Ben Simmons were here, nobody would be blaming Joel Embiid for anything.
True lack of leadership. His ego is swollen like a mean's lip. That is the issue with Joel Embiid. From a leadership perspective, you cannot go out of your way to show everybody how much you care about personal accolades.
You cannot go out of your way to show everybody how different you are, how cut above the rest of you are, because all the people that are tasked with following you feel that and see that, and they will go away from whatever it is you're trying to do. So he cannot motivate anybody around him because it's so very clear that everything he cares about involves Joel Embiid. It's hard to get along with.
And in those locker rooms where everybody is high paid and everybody wants to be the star, a real leader does not separate himself from the group. He goes out of his way to say, hey, all I care about is our collective success. And because of that, he will never get along with another star.
He will never be in a position where he's in a locker room and people will fall in line and say, this is a guy that we believe in and we will follow to the ends of the earth. And it will show up every single time playoff basketball comes around that he is not of the creme de la creme as far as NBA stars are concerned.
Pablo, your thoughts? Do I have a ruling here? I don't love that on first take they're sharing a microphone. I think we need to do better than that. In the next version of this, we will make sure to produce this slightly better than I'm producing it right now.
He's also forcing me to face him because he's on the profile of it. So now I feel like I have to turn that way. And I think he spit neosporin onto the mic.
This is the thing. Amin has been trying to hide his face for two days. Have you not noticed he's done the show with his back to the shipping container because he's looking at me? He's never been so attentive on me in his life, and it's just because he doesn't want people to see the scar on his face. Pablo, how's this going so far? We need a third topic.
I am going to argue that Amin Alhassan is currently the best version of himself as a debater I've ever heard. Amin, you can hear him, you can hear the Queens, you can hear the Stephen A in his voice as his cognitive impairment also is clearly upon him. I also would argue that Amin should probably try, you know, Hawk knows this, Toradol is a thing football players get before a big game.
Amin should actually hurt himself before debating. This is currently working for him.
This is my Toradol, is that what you're saying?
It's the opposite of Toradol. You have whatever that is.
Were your feelings hurt by me underestimating you in this matchup? Everybody.
All of these guys. The only person I will allow grace to is Roy, because Roy said it means playing hurt. But all the other guys say, oh, no, Andrew Hawkins, this, whatever. You guys don't understand. I do this for a living. There it is. See, that's what I'm talking about.
You're cosplaying that Stephen A. Smith. That doesn't count.
He's cheating. Had I known he was just going to be Stephen A., I'd have said, of course he's cheating. That's the game, huh? Listen, it's one of those things. There's no way he's not a leader. You got to understand he's not a leader. Now we have a fight.
Now we got a fight. I didn't know we were talking. Is that what you wanted?
Yes, I want. You want to try again? You want a third chance on. Do you want a third chance on a topic neither one of you know about so that we can do this correctly? Yes, you're both in a costume. You're both characters.
Now, here's the thing that I never thought. I know that the scoreboard already says I've won this thing. But if you mean to tell me I'm afraid of Andrew Hawkins, I will put my reputation on the line, and I will say this. Winner take all for this laugh.
Can we do the debt ceiling? Can we do the debt ceiling as the topic?
No. You know what? Shut up, nerd. Kick him out of here. What? Hold on a second.
Just get him out of here. No.
The debt ceiling. Minor penalty, two minutes for boring.
Guys, the last take we'd like to have from you is the movie Wicked. Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo both gave stellar performances. Both are nominated for awards coming up. But between the two, as Galinda and Elphaba, which gave the better performance? This is tough, man.
Which witch? Which witch? Okay. Did it on purpose. Here we go. Here's the thing, Dan Leventhal. I love Wicked. I took my kids on Thanksgiving Day to watch Wicked, and they were excited. You know, we pre-gamed. We prepped by watching Wizard of Oz to get ourselves into the mood, get ourselves into the mind state to watch this wonderful, wonderful pellicular, as they say down here in Miami.
And I love Miami. Miami's different. But I digress. Both actresses delivered an amazing performance. Both sang, both made us laugh, they made us feel. Now, what I will say is this. I felt like Ariana Grande's character was more of a one note, so it was easier for her to play. Meanwhile, the Wicked Witch of the West had a lot more complexity, a lot more texture to her.
And so she had to go high, she had to go low, she had to go left, go right. Talk about Latinas. I'm going to go...
She's Italian, common misconception. My bad.
His face is falling apart. I choked at the end.
Beavon A. Smith, listen to me. Like my grandmama always tell me.
Oh, my God.
You can put a raccoon in the ass of a popper, but you can't make a jackass jump. Okay?
Everybody knows. When I'm watching Wicked, everybody, you mean to tell me Ariana Grande, the top, the best?
He won that one.
That was winner take all. That was winner take all.
Ding, ding. That's how you know I'm a fair competitor, man. I got to give it to him, man.
I watch way too much Shannon Sharp. There is nobody that I enjoy more. In life than watching Shannon Sharp. And that is the honest to God truth. So I should have brought my muscle suit.
That was great. Good job, guys.
I'll bring a suit suit.
We have embraced debate. Good. We will make this better and better. And also just clip that last part where cut it out and edit it out where he says that he loves Shannon Sharp. Send that out just to the internet without that context, please. Do it unfairly. I'm down with that. So that he can have beef with Shannon Sharp and homophobia. I like him, too. He's great. He's wildly entertaining.
Thank you, guys. Come on back in here, please. Pablo Torre finds out, I've told you, it is a very popular podcast. It is an award-winning podcast. It has, I'm going to say, the most critical acclaim from snooty elitists in the podcast world than any other podcast presently going in sports. I think I can say that.
Yeah, we lead the league in that, in snooty elitist approval, definitely.
You are on MSNBC and you are now in the in the middle of a liberal elite spaceship in one of your side projects. How is that going for you? I've seen you. You are now a regular on Morning Joe, correct?
That's right. I'm an MSNBC analyst. It is a fun ivory tower where I get to be a jock. That's what I am over there. You're the popular.
You're the popular.
I'm the sports guy who gets to be chill and hanging out with the fellas. That's what I do over there. Unlike here where I'm not respected really in any way. I'm reduced to a kind of like inset picture in picture thing where I just laugh at people do bits.
You, Tony, you were making faces at Pablo because that's what's happening. Pablo's the jock on where? No, if you guys had not noticed, I know, Tony, why you're not watching this. It's Pablo.
to find a pablo on on msnbc now in the morning doing morning chuckle fest television at what i will say is a pretty dangerous time in america and some people are going to visit the white house when they share trump when they shouldn't be uh... that's as journalists but uh... your i'll say what i want their so you are in the middle of that show and i can put you in awkward more awkward position than that with that show but you are absolutely the cool sports person
who comes in and everyone loves talking sports with you, even though some people on that set don't even want to talk sports and have never talked sports, but now because you bring sports to them, you're the cool guy.
I'm a palate cleanser. I'm a palate cleanser, a representative of the thing that Americans actually care about in a place where people are genuinely worried and fretting about politics, about whatever is happening in D.C. right now, which, again, I think would be an awesome debate topic for Shannon Sharp to tackle. What do we do about the debt ceiling? He had to go.
He had to go. Shannon Sharp, a triumphant performance. He just left.
Very good. I think that my role there is I love, look, I love talking about sports to people who don't actually know anything about sports. It's kind of the inverse of the exercise you just did. What if you knew something about sports and the audience did it? It's fantastic.
Have you seen? I mean, it's too early for you on the West Coast because I've enjoyed my friends are watching Pablo. They're talking about Pablo. Pablo is getting to a new audience, I would say. It's a different audience. It's a very different. Yeah, we've lived. We've lived in these different. All of us have lived in the ESPN bubble, but it's different from here.
They are fascinated by this shiny sports journalist who comes over and they're like, wow. And he's smart when he talks about the toys.
Well, we picked. the ambassador for sports to go on that show, right? It has to be someone that is palatable for those people. You couldn't, you know... A model minority.
Pablo Torre is a model minority for the new America that we can all believe in. You're welcome.
It's one of those things where it's like, if you gave him an actual sports person, it might be too much, too intense for them. So you add a little bit of milk. You give him one from the library. Get me a sports person from the library. Bring him over here. Let him push his glasses up the bridge of his nose. Well, actually.
Don't wear glasses, actually. I'm a guy who doesn't wear glasses anymore. I wear contacts now. The library can be fun. Libraries can be fun. There are books in them. Put it on the poll, Juju.
Is the library fun at Levitard Show?
Well, real sports guys want to go to real sporting events. And as you know, listeners, there's only one place that you should check if you want to attend some of the biggest events going. We got college football, playoff games, NBA, big time NFL games, legacies on the line. And if you want to be there, you download the Game Time app. You create an account.
and use the code DAN, that is D-A-N, for $20 off your first purchase. Terms apply. You get panoramic seat views, all-in pricing with the push of a button, so there are no surprises when you check out. Download Game Time today. Pablo Torre, what time is it? I believe it's game time. It is game time, sports guy!
Just game time. You don't have to use four words. One, you can use two. Oh. It's game time. Just you hit it. I believe it's game time. You've got to have some conviction.
I believe. My calculations serve correct. Pablo Torrey finds... Oh, that's right.
That's right. What we need more is just overconfident declarations of things as opposed to, you know, an open-minded curiosity. Sure, let's go that way instead of the way that I'm at. Open-minded?
Pablo, are you here to shill on behalf of Pablo Torre Finds Out? Is it the episode with you, me, and Mina, or is it something else that you're promoting?
I'm actually here to say thank you, Dan. It's been a really long but incredible year for us in New York. We are a satellite upon the moon, upon the sun. Let's upgrade it to the largest celestial body that is you guys in Miami. And what I come here to say is, yes, we have a great episode today with Dan and Mina.
Yes, we had a great episode yesterday with Paul Feinbaum and the secret history of his collars and their criminal histories, which are both hilarious and profound. His collar? His collars. Oh, multiple different shirts. Got it. And they are not normal collars. Do not find a new slant. What I'm here to say is that it's a show that we really couldn't launch without Dan.
And so when Dan talks about how much it costs, I reckon with that because... The whole thing is that we make a show with ambition that is powered by people who otherwise are not getting paid. Like we are paying journalists to go report stories for us. We're trying to go to death row as well as trying to buy a sculpture of myself made of butter. We're trying to do serious stuff and silly stuff.
And I just want to say thank you legitimately because the premise of this company was we would get to make something from scratch that lived up to some amount of hype. And I am very proud that on some level we have done that. And it's really hard. And so thank you to Dan and to everybody in Miami for enabling the nonsense that I know you guys like to make fun of. But deep down.
I think you might like, just like a library, you know, has some fun stuff in it too.
And it only cost $242 million. Well. This month.
Inflation adjusted. This month. You should have seen what I found out when I started looking at some of the numbers.
Okay, hold on. By the way, just as an FYI, what I found out is that Dan should never be in a finance meeting. I shouldn't. Dan comes out of that thing, and he's like, I got takes. I'm like, oh, God.
No, I come out of those things, and I'm like, I got taken by everyone in our company, everybody who wants more. I just looked at some of those numbers. It's a dizzying array. Of following everybody's curiosities totally into an abyss.
I mean, I said thank you, you know.
That makes it okay. It does make it okay, actually. You know what? That is happy holidays. Legitimately happy holidays. I said when you got on here, this is our last show of the year. We're going to celebrate in the club with an assortment of sounds from the year. But I am grateful for everyone here who has made this machine work. Everyone on the other side. and we've got close to 50 employees.
I don't know where it is. And a whole ton of contractors. They all work for Pablo. It is a spaceship, yes. We've got a ton of contractors, most of whom work for Pablo.
Mike, can we get Dan out of the meetings? Why is he in the meetings? I thought the whole thing was he shouldn't be in the meetings. And now he's in the meetings at the end of the year.
Happy holidays from our fan to yours. with special gratitude for our entire metal art crew.
I groan and run my fingernails across his neck, and he gasps a strangled moan. You're going to unmanned me, Anna. You take me. I sit down onto him, rattling in the fullness of my possession, rattling in his reaction, watching his unravel beneath me. I feel like a goddess. Anna, touch me, please. I lean forward and steady myself with my hands on his chest. Come on, baby. I need this. Give it to me.
And I explode, my body a slave to his, and wrap myself around him, flinging to him like a vine. Am I paying all these people? All of them?
We got here. I want to tell you a story. I'm serious here. My wife and my two daughters, they begged me to buy a Peloton. So I bought a Peloton. And then I watched that Peloton sit in my office and stare at me. So you know what I did one day? I looked at it. And so I decided to get off my ass and I jumped on the Peloton because no one else was using it and I paid for it. I mean, so why not?
Then I realized eventually that they bought it for me. And I got to tell you, way more challenging than I could have ever imagined. Peloton coaches are walking the walk. I love the coaches. I do the Grateful Dead one. It's fantastic. They have a sub three-hour marathon runner, military-trained athlete, a former college basketball player, and so many other well-rounded coaches on their team.
All this experience really shows in their classes, which are never short of challenging, especially for me. So I jumped on it that first time. It was challenging, more challenging than I thought. Then I wanted to beat the bike, and so I kept jumping on it, and I absolutely love it. I mean, I'm the only one who uses it, but again... They got it for me. I mean, I had no idea.
That's a little passive aggressive, don't you think? Find your push. Find your power with Peloton at OnePeloton.com. Dugats here. Right now, my friends over at SimpliSafe are extending their massive Black Friday deal for our Levitard Show listeners. SimpliSafe is the home security I trust to keep my home and family safe. I've been telling you that for years.
This is your last chance to protect your home at SimpliSafe's lowest prices of the year. SimpliSafe is a new way to protect your home that stops intruders before they break into your home. Old school systems only take action once someone is already inside your home. That's too late. SimpliSafe's active guard outdoor protection changes the game by preventing crime before it even happens.
SimpliSafe is extending its massive Black Friday deal for our listeners this week only. You can take 50% off any new system with a select professional monitoring plan. This is your last chance to claim their best offer of the year. Head to simplisafe.com slash DLB to claim your discount and make sure your home is safe this season. Don't wait. This offer won't last long.
Keep your home, your family, and your peace of mind protected with SimpliSafe. There's no safe like SimpliSafe.
Folks, listen up. Smirnoff knows there's no I in football. Football's a we thing, an experience that is best joined together with good drinks and good folks. Smirnoff is the world's number one vodka and is the official vodka partner of the NFL. And this year, there are more opportunities to watch football and make delicious Smirnoff cocktails than ever before over the holiday season.
From Thanksgiving to Black Friday and Christmas, Smirnoff and the NFL are with you every step of the way. So this holiday season, when you're enjoying the game and your cocktails, please make sure you drink responsibly. Take a minute, make a plan, never drive impaired. Smirnoff, we do game days. Please drink responsibly. Smirnoff, number 21 vodka, distilled from grain, 40% alcohol by volume.
The Smirnoff Company, New York, New York. Please do not share with anyone under legal drinking age.
Don Levitard. But it's just his titties are sitting on the shelf that is his belly. Stugatz. He said titties.
It shocked me a little bit.
I wasn't quite prepared for titties. This is the Don Levitard Show with the Stugatz.
Now, I like these guys. I like their information. I really do. But you have to understand that there are a whole lot of people in sports who will look at these two guys, Jordan Brenner and Peter Keating, and say, what do these knobs and all their math and all their numbers and all their data, what do these knobs know about sports that they can tell me who are underdog values?
We couldn't get Peter Keating to get his technology right last week. He was upside down. He was confused. His sound didn't work. What does he know about anything in sports? Well, I will tell you that these guys, and Greg Cody and Stu Gatz every week around here, they're anti-information. They're anti-any new data. These guys, for 20 years now,
have data to draw from, and they believe in certain fundamental truths. So thank you again for being on with us. We will get to some of the things happening in sports in a moment. But Jordan, if you can explain basically, how do you feel about a whole lot of people in sports just saying, shut up, nerds.
You don't know anything with all your math.
I wish I were a better nerd, first of all, because half the time I'm relying on Peter for the math. I'm not doing the numbers myself. I'm just numerate. So what I would say is this. First of all, in my case, I've been covering sports for 20 years. I talked to coaches. I played sports, whatever. So if you want to label me that way. weird outside person on Twitter, that's fine.
But what I always say to this is people who are like, I don't like analytics. And then I'll say, okay, so how do you tell if a player's good? And they'll be like, well, he hit 40 home runs. I'm like, okay, you just use analytics. You're just not using the best number possible. So like the old motto of Faber College, knowledge is good.
I want to say, I think there's something a little deeper going on that we should pay some respect to, which is that modern analytics have moved baseball away from base stealing, have moved football away from rushing, have moved basketball away from the inside game. A lot of people grew up where sports meant a lot more violence and physical contact and beat the hell out of the other guy.
And over time, more information discovered other ways to defeat your opponents. There are people who just don't like that. People who don't like how thinking about these things and the kind of bruising competitions they're used to enjoying go together. But it's all just information. It all just makes it smarter. It all just makes it more fun. Oh, and you're right.
Baseball is a solved game, Peter. But unfortunately, in solving the game, it's less fun to watch.
That's what's happened, right? The evolutions are such that I'm watching my second baseman pull a card out of his pocket so he can stand in exactly the right place. And then I see a line drive hit there. You're making it so scientific that you are taking some of the joyous spontaneity out of it.
It's the it is the eternal struggle that sports are facing right now. We know the optimal way to play, but the optimal way to win games may not be the optimal entertainment value. So, Dan, you're exactly right. How many times your brain is trained to see when a ball goes up the middle, you're expecting it to go all the way to the center fielder. And now we've learned how to shade that way.
So we take away that hit. And it's the same thing. Look, there's a reason why Adam Silver is suddenly discussing refining the game a little bit, because basketball has been largely solved through the incredibly complex equation that three is worth more than two. So, you know, I get it. And I don't get it, if that makes any sense.
But I also, there's something a little more general to keep in mind that a way through this is to embrace the crazy, embrace the randomness. People want to ascribe events to reasons and character and moral turpitude. Sometimes shit just happens. I mean, yeah, we've been studying college basketball for 20 years.
The closest we've been able to get in explaining the variance and what happens in order is it's not anywhere close to 100%. So you can embrace the fact that crazy stuff happens, appreciate it, doesn't have to be sustainable. And it still should be really enjoyable when unexpected things happen, even if it's a little more predictable.
This interview is presented by Masterclass. Learn from the best to become your best.
Peter, can you tell me what you have seen in sports that the math has changed more recently? Then the stupidity of, holy, we were playing basketball the wrong way the entire time, trying to get the most contested two instead of the least contested three.
Well, the three point revolution. I mean, if that's that's kind of the paragon example of of how things have changed. Sure. But you got to remember, sports can also legislate against too much change. I mean, baseball just passed rules against the shift and instituted a, you know, for 150 years, baseball intellectuals were writing that the great timeless thing about baseball was there's no clock.
Well, they changed it and it kind of made things better, right? So, you know, if we can't all get together and decide if this is too much, you know, we don't have robot umpires yet. If we don't want robot umpires, nobody's going to force us to have robot umpires. We can all get together and decide this is too much change. Let's keep things a little more fun if we want to. Sports have done that too.
And the NBA has done that before. Look, in the late 90s, early 2000s, the game had gotten really boring. I mean, we remember those. We wistfully remember those Heat Knicks series, but it wasn't good basketball. It was just good drama. But the NBA had too many games that were 82 to 77, and they legislated a lot of the holding off the ball out of the game.
And when Steve Nash was with Phoenix and the early days of Pace and Space and the early days of the Warriors, it was a great blend. The game was way more exciting. It's probably tipped too far in the other direction. And then there are things you can do, whether it's move the three-point line back or put some of the physicality back in the game to change the dynamic of what points are worth.
And by the way, the one thing that's still worth a ton of value always and has been is getting to the rim and getting to the free throw line.
Guys, this is a little bit dry. The numbers are dry. Can we just do anything to make it a little more interesting in video, please? Mike, what do you have? You seem to be all excited here.
Well, I'm actually really loving this segment. And it sparked a side conversation continued from our conversation yesterday that Amin and I had where, OK, well, we all agree. Everyone knows something's wrong with basketball. The numbers indicate this and true leadership pushes the sport along. So what can we find consensus on? Because, yes, three is bigger than two. We get that.
Do we make the court bigger? Do we move the line back? And Amin had a very practical solution that I think you also kind of invoked a little bit here.
Are you talking about the baseball theory? So, guys, every baseball park, where's the home run line? Well, it's different in every park, right? So I came up with the suggestion the three-point line should be home court dependent as well. So in Milwaukee, they might have it in the paint. Because their best player, their highest volume player is Giannis.
He's going to get hit a bunch of threes from right in front of the rim. Meanwhile, in Golden State, they're like, hey, we got the best shooters. Let's move it as far back as possible. Let's move back to 30 feet or whatever. And so now you've got some variance, some strategery going, right? Hey, guys, we're playing at Milwaukee tonight. Pound the paint. I don't want to see anybody standing outside.
I want everyone inside the paint.
It also demands a lot from front offices, too. And how you build out your roster, you essentially have a division specialist because they have more mid-range three-pointers in this. I thought that was a very novel concept. What do you guys make of that?
I would love to see the unintended consequences. You know, when's the last time a baseball team actually succeeded when they tried to recruit a free agent because they said, oh, look... I'm going to ignore this video trickery. I just want everybody to know my hat's still pointing up. You know, often that doesn't work out, which just adds to the fun.
Listen, I think if it's within certain bounds, you know, there are rules about how far the fences can be in baseball. You can't just do whatever you want. There's certain minimums and maximums. That could be really interesting.
You know where it would be a fun place to test this out is the completely boring and largely useless in-season tournament. So make that.
Change up the rules for that one. Test it out. I mean, he's blasphemed against you.
NBA Cup, by the way.
I mean, I mean, he's... Look, man, the NBA Cup is not for any of us. It's for children. It's for people who are 10 years old who are watching this and seeing guys celebrate and be happy, and then 10 years from now when they're in the league, that becomes a point of emphasis. I want to win MVP. I want to win finals MVP. I want to win NBA Cup MVP.
You're finding yourself give the take that LeBron James and Giannis have now won and cared about this tournament, and therefore this will be a requirement for future greatness. That's ridiculous.
It's not because the example those guys set, those are guys that a bunch of kids grow up wearing their sneakers, buying their jerseys, idolizing them. Those kids one day will be in the NBA and they'll say, I want to do everything that my idol did. Look, Dan, how do we get to a place where you got kids saying Paul George is the greatest player of all time?
Because 10, 11 years ago, these were the kids who were like, I don't like LeBron. Who's in his way? That guy. He's really good. And that's how you get kids grow up saying Paul George is the greatest player of all time. And those kids are in the NBA now.
So if you're telling me that a kid can grow up thinking Paul George is the GOAT, they're not going to grow up thinking that the NBA Cup is something worth winning?
Guys, before you get out of here, again, Jordan Brenner and Peter Keating, The Underdogs is the name of the podcast. We are out of time, but your Underdogs of the Year, that episode that you're doing, what are the highlights so people can go get it over there? Because we've run out of time here, and I didn't leave enough to actually get into that as subject matter.
Well, we'll just have to come back then, Dan, but...
The that show drops next week to two part episode. We got a lot of Olympics sprinkled in a couple of big college football upsets. But I think there could be some debate and how high we have some of those Olympic events.
And unless you really like bicycling and no, no Florida Panthers, because we decided because we are we do a lot of analytics work. We decided Connor McDavid wasn't overrated.
Ah, there. OK, we'll get you on to argue with Greg Cody then. And I think he would have the winning argument. Thank you, gentlemen. Appreciate the time. Thanks, Dan. Thank you. Happy New Year. Likewise.
Hey, folks, it's Mike Ryan. The holiday season is upon us. Christmas is coming next week. So what are you doing for it? I imagine you're going to have some family over. How do you entertain the family? How do you keep everybody happy? Well, I know one easy way. Make your holiday time Miller time. Bring out a nice silver platter of that beautiful white can. Or bottle whatever your preference.
Heck, do it on draft. As long as it's got that beautiful amber color and was Triple Hops brewed, you know it's going to be a hit. Why? Because Miller Lite has tastes you know you can depend on. No games, no gimmicks, just great beer for people who like beer. You'll take a sip, look around, see your family, and know you immediately made the best decision possible.
Because Miller Lite is brewed for taste. It hits different than other light beers. Simple ingredients. like malted barley for rich, balanced toffee note flavors in the iconic golden color. The original light beer since 1975 and still the best one. Making memories at year-end gatherings? Tastes like Miller time! Go to MillerLight.com slash stand to find delivery options near you.
Or you can pick up some Miller Light pretty much anywhere they sell beer. Celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces. Fewer calories and carbs than premium regular beer.
This holiday at T-Mobile, I'm joined by a special co-anchor. What up, everybody? It's your boy, Big Snoop D-O-double G. Snoop, let's talk about T-Mobile. Okay, cool. This holiday, get four lines for $25 a line, plus four iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence and the all-new camera control on us. Let's get cracking at the breakfast egg. You can use those eggs to make some eggnog, Snoop. Respect.
And people do love T-Mobile, where you can save on every plan versus the other big guys when you switch. You know, y'all can take some of those savers and buy some Snoop merchandise. Always a great stocking stuffer, Snoop. We up out of here. Hold your horses, Snoop D-O-double G. Let's remind people one more time. Head to T-Mobile.com to get four iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence on us.
Plus four lines for 25 bucks. Now drop that jank. 24-month bill credits for eligible trainings and four new lines of auto pay. Both qualified customers get taxes and fees and $35 per line connection charge. Contact us before canceling entire accounts to continue remaining bill credits or credit stop and balance on required finance agreements due 999.99. Credits end if you pay off device early.
See how you can save on wireless streaming versus the other big guys at T-Mobile.com slash switch. Apple Intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later.