Now there’s a nice fella; it’s Jesse Eisenberg. We talk ‘businesstry’ and beyond: the secret to slapping, magic, anthropology, social networks, and Jimmy Kimmel’s acting. Clip on your hairpiece... it’s an all-new SmartLess. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of SmartLess ad-free and a whole week early. Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus.
Hello, listeners. Hello, everybody. We've got something special for you today.
What is it?
It's a podcast called Smart List. What happens? Don't turn the channel. We've got a real fun chat.
Who's on today, Jay?
Who's on? We've got a special guest that the audience, you know what we're talking about, but two of us do not. We've got a really great one. Who are the two guys that don't know who the guest is? Stay tuned to find out.
Just give us a little clap if you're with us.
Oh. Jesus, that's a powerful clap. We were talking, Will, before you came on, that Jason, well, first of all, we did this photo shoot yesterday, and Jason found one gray hair and pulled it out because people think that Jason dyes his hair, and he does not dye his hair. I do sometimes, but you don't either, Will. Yeah, he doesn't dye his hair.
I don't, but I have these. It's unbelievable. I have these grays on my temple now.
What are you going to do for those for the project coming up? Leave them. Keep it. Yeah, man. Yeah, just keep it. Exactly. Why would you try to trick someone into thinking that you're different than you are, Sean?
Yeah, I'm not going to use makeup. There's only one Sean Hayes in the world.
Why would you pretend to be anyone else?
We love Sean Hayes. And you look, by the way, Jason, to bring it up, you look great. You don't need to do it.
Yeah, what did I tell you yesterday? You have the face of a 13-year-old.
Yeah.
Yeah, well. You'll never look old.
I know. Okay. I was going to make another joke about some famous pop star.
I mean, look at how gorgeous Will Speck is with his gray hair. Look at how gorgeous Richard Ehrlich. It's white. Richard Ehrlich, the best realtor in Southern California. What about John Slattery?
You know, the most handsome actor going. Richard Ehrlich.
I'll do it. All right. Maybe I'll let it go a little bit. Yeah. All right. Apologies to the guest. Here we come. Tighten up. Gang, now this isn't a great intro. It just doesn't fit what this guy does. But I was rushing this morning. So today, we got a fellow that's done. I apologize for the chainsaw outside my house. God damn it.
We actually can't hear it.
Good. So today we have a fellow that's done more with his 41 years than we have with our combined 150. He's acted in film, television, been nominated for the most prestigious awards. He's written plays. He's directed films. He's a father and a husband. And he's here to tell us how he does it all. Gang, let's get to it. It's Jesse Eisenberg.
Come on, Jesse. Jesse. Come on, Jesse. Hi, hi, hi. Hi. Thank you so much for the interview. You're very welcome. Nice to meet you. Sorry I clapped so loud. Thank you so much. Yeah. You have large hands? No, I think I was like, I think I didn't understand where I have to be in relation to this microphone. You know what I mean? It's difficult.
They just got to know that their mics are hot.
This is a new mic. I'm working with a new mic.
Do you do a lot of microphone work? Do you have a podcast?
No, no, no. Nor do I do a lot of mic work. I mainly use, you know, just like my headset. But today, you know, your podcast is worthy of this Rode NT-USB Mini. Yeah.
Stop trying to get free shit, Jesse.
We bought it for you. You don't have to sell it. Even across the pond, I take my road. I'm in England. Oh, that's why.
Get ready to be showered with Mike.
Yeah, right. Exactly.
Now, are you... God damn it. You're in England doing what? Doing something else that is very difficult?
I'm in the dressing room of the Graham Norton show. Oh, the Graham Norton show? Are you really? This is not Chatty Man, right? This is... I'm doing a meta press junket. I'm doing it from the press. Yes. Wow. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
You're about to go out on a talk show and you're recording a podcast.
Yeah. But this is good because I can stay in this kind of like self-indulgent place. I could just talk about myself for the next 48 hours and I'll be okay.
You work so hard. Like I can only do one thing a day and the rest needs to be played.
Here's an idea. Here's an idea. Just go with me. And Jesse, you can throw this out if you'd like. And also welcome to Smart List. But I just want to say this. Why don't we, the four of us, come up with a fake story for you to tell on the Graham Norton Show that we will all know. Oh, yeah. Right, because he won't know now until it comes out, which is way later.
Oh, go, go, Will. So, okay, wait, this is like a prank pulled on me or him or what?
On him or on the world?
Well, you're going to be in on it.
It's just like a fun little Easter egg that a couple months from now, people go... That's interesting.
Do you want to do a whole story or should we do like a word?
Or we could do a word. Or you could do a word or you could do that actually both of your legs have been replaced. Let's do the word. This does bring up a good point, Will.
Will, unless you've got something in mind here, it does bring up a good point that maybe Tracy is unaware of. Jesse, Tracy is... Sean's sister, who is not hip, hip to all the business tree stuff. The inside, she's on the outside, sure.
And so for Tracy, before we do talk shows, you know, the nighttime stuff, you do what's called a pre-interview, where you talk to the segment producer and you come up with stories and crap you're going to say and kind of work out your answers.
Which I imagine you've done, Jesse, for this show. Yeah.
Not for us. Yeah.
There's a big pre-interview for this one.
No, this one's a weird one. The one with this is weird. They're basically like, we're on with like, I'm with Kieran, who's in my movie. And then like, I'm with Daniel Craig. You're on with other people. Right, you stay on the couch. And so the pre-interview, exactly. And so the pre-interview with this one was like, Daniel was shooting in Italy.
What was it like shooting in New Orleans 15 years ago on a movie? Basically, the link is that we both didn't shoot a movie in New York City. And so, like, I realized the stories they're going for are just these incredibly tenuous links with the guests who have nothing in common.
You know, what's funny is that both you, ironically, you, Kieran, and Daniel have all recently, are all recent records.
It might have been the last three guests we've had.
Yeah, on our show. No.
Is that true? Truly. Well, that's the thing.
Well, that's all I need.
Kieran, what a pain in the ass he is. Jesus Christ. He's just an asshole, this guy. I mean, so negative. Not cheery at all. No energy at all.
No hobbies.
No hobbies. Nothing.
Wait, I can't tell if you're kidding, because actually that does describe a version of him that I know very well. He's like the greatest. We love him.
He said very nice things about you as well. We loved having him.
Maybe it's something about the fact that now, that doing the Graham Norton show, you can't do it until you've done Smartless. I don't know.
Yeah, work on it. No bad ideas. Right, something like that. Listen, I'll figure that out in a moment. Don't you worry. Yeah.
But literally the order was Daniel, Craig, Kieran, and then you on our show. And now that's crazy that you're all on the same panel on that show. That's what we just said, Sean. No, I know, but that's crazy. Yeah, but we can continue to analyze.
Yeah, it's amazing.
Was that literally the last? No, no, it wasn't literally the last three.
I think it was. No, it wasn't. Oh, no, there was. Yeah, there was. Never mind. You know, Kieran is like the, oh, he's like the biggest fan of your show. And just a very uncomfortable thing happened once is where he told me, we were on a plane, and he said, like, he loves your show so much, he said, except one episode. And he told me the name of the guest, and it actually does escape my memory now.
I forgot who he said was like not a good guest. And then I ran into that person, and I was so nervous that I had this information in my head that they were the worst guests on Smartless. And so I said to them, Kieran said you were the best guest on Smartless. Tell me what you did. Oh, really? Yeah. And you don't remember who it is? I don't remember who it is.
All right, wait, let me get to my questions. I've got great questions. I'm an incredible interviewer.
By the way, it's so nice to meet you. I've been such a fan for a long time. Me too, Jesse.
Jesse, we met briefly. We met each other, Will, yeah. Wait, what? What? It was in LA at a studio, but we were doing a promotional video with Jimmy Kimmel for Batman.
Yes.
Yes. Do you remember that? Yes. It was so weird. With Ben Affleck. That's right. It was like a reverse engineered idea. Cavill.
Cavill.
Yeah, that's right. It was like they were meeting at a party and I was playing the bad guy. And yeah, you came in afterwards. And I think Jimmy Kimmel came in afterwards as Batman or something. I can't remember it.
He came in. He was saying Batman and Superman. And then Lego Batman. And then I came in and said Lego Batman. And then Ben said something like, you're not really supposed to be a real Batman. And I said, well, you might want to check the box office.
Oh, God. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Here's what I was left with, and tell me if you agree with me on that, Jesse. Sure. I was really impressed with Jimmy Kimmel's acting. I thought he did a great job that day.
Really? And I told him that. Yeah, I would hope so, yeah. That's not exactly the thing I walked away with. I can't remember, was he really good? Wait, like how so? Like he seemed genuine?
Well, I guess, look, the bar was low because I thought he would be fucking terrible.
Oh, got it.
And he was engaged. He was like generally engaged. And he was engaged. Yeah, that's true. He seemed like he was really listening in the moment. No, that's true.
I guarantee you he's a great actor. You know, you can just tell with some people that they just kind of know the way they come across and therefore they're able to sort of calibrate that and guide that, you know, and incorporate lines into that. Like, I bet he'd be a great actor.
But Jesse, when did you start, we all know you as a very, as I said, very accomplished actor. And I am also, like Sean and Jason, I'm a very big fan of your acting. I think you're really, really good at work. Oh God, me too, of course.
Always, always.
But as a writer, when was that that you, did you always write or was that something that came later?
No, I've been like, I've been writing like plays like in New York for like 20 years. But this is like, and I've had like some, you know, some popular plays or whatever, but like nothing to like this level. Well, I had two plays that were going to go to Broadway were both canceled. the week before we put out the press announcement for different weird reasons.
So, like, this is the first thing that I'm really getting, like, more attention, and it's quite surreal, because I feel like, well, I've been doing the same thing for 20 years, but people like this one, and it makes me wonder where I went wrong 20 years ago.
Wait, tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. What is? You're doing a play right now? No, no, no, no, now I did this movie.
A real play, the film. I thought you were saying you were doing... No, no, no, no, no. I gave up on the medium entirely because it gave up on me. And so, no, no, just now like I wrote a thing that's like now people like it and they're saying, well, you know, it has this unusual tone. I want to say I've been doing that for so long, but no one liked it. But anyway, so yeah.
And before that, I was just writing like joke writing. I wanted to write, you know, sketch comedy when I was younger. No way. Really? Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, when I was 17, I put together like a packet for Saturday Night Live. Actually, when I was 16, I wrote a script about Woody Allen and it got sent to him.
It was about like a fictional version of him now at 16, which is what I was, changing his name to Woody Allen. And it got like sent through various channels to his lawyers who then sent me a cease and desist letter. Oh my God. But then you ended up doing three films with him. Did it come up? I did movies. It came up once. We were on like a press junket.
He's so uninterested in anybody else, you know? So like, I don't mean that as a criticism. He's just like, he's just like, basically I knew what would happen is that somebody during press would bring it up because it's like a cute story that's on the internet. And he would go, oh, that's interesting. I never didn't know that and would never think about it again.
And I knew I can go up to him and say, hey, that was weird, right? He would just have no... He just doesn't have any interest in stuff like that. I think he's just been like so famous and celebrated for so many years that he's uninterested in like the public persona. And so he didn't care about that and we didn't share a nice laugh or a drink.
I love the idea that you're like waiting to get a response to your submission and the response is a cease and desist.
But it's also like you bring up like, hey, so you sent me a lawyer letter. What about that? I don't know anything about that.
Well, the lawyer is his producer. I got to know the lawyer. But I'm sure there were 10,000 letters like they were sending that every day to everybody who wanted to make a movie about him. I remember I got home from school one day and my dad said, we have good news and bad news. I said, what's the good news? He's like, we heard from Woody Allen. I was like, what's the bad news?
He's like, you might have to get a lawyer. And he sent me the thing and I framed it right away. It was so exciting. Wow.
That's pretty good. So when you're writing a play versus a film, to a ding-dong like me, it would seem that writing a play is easier because it's just dialogue. And a film, you've got to incorporate what the visual component is going to be as well and sort of imply some of the inner thinking of the characters as well and all that. Is that fair to say that writing a screenplay is more difficult?
I mean, no, I mean, I think it depends on like the project and like, you know, you know, you could make the same argument that you have to keep people's attention for two hours on one set. And, you know, there's something incredibly difficult about that. Whereas a movie, you can have music come in and you could have close-ups and you could re-edit it to...
within an inch of its life and it could turn into something that's test screened a bunch of times. So like, no, I mean, my plays have been basically like four scenes total. So like a half hour scenes and, you know, so like half hour scenes for a two hour play. And I like that. My mind works in that way to like keep scenes going.
So my struggle with like movie writing is to just make sure the scenes are not seven minutes long.
Holy shit. JB, he just clowned you, dude. Why? You just got totally clowned because you- I'm so clowned I didn't even realize.
You didn't even realize.
No, I'm kidding. But I thought there was... I was clowning him, but I thought there was a gentle... I was doing it gently. Speaking of clowning him with a baby wipe.
Speaking of clowns, your mother started another silly internet thing, because I do deep research on Wikipedia. Yeah, yeah. It sounds like you read that first paragraph.
Yeah, yeah, straight up top. Fucking Jesse. I want Jesse to come once a week and just come in, set JB straight, and then be like, I gotta go.
He read the snippet from the Google search engine, you know, where a million things come up, and he read the snippet.
He didn't even click on the link. The directing thing, are you loving the directing thing as much? And I apologize. I bet you've gotten this question a thousand times. Are you loving it more, less, or the same as writing and acting?
Maybe a little less, only because it's such a managerial thing, as you know. Well, I don't know actually what your experiences have been. But for me, it just felt like I was just aware constantly on set of somebody's plane maybe being delayed. And when I'm writing, I'm sitting in a library by myself and acting. It's like kind of an emotional private experience that you can have.
And then I just remember, like, I spent the day thinking about... this person's hair person flying in from England, and if there was rain in England, they were going to be late, and then I don't think the actor would come to set. And I was like, this was the least creative thought I've had in my life, let alone on the set of a movie.
Yeah, exactly. How fucking interesting. That's such a great point.
Right, right, right, right. Does that ring true for you? Yes, it can, but then I just make sure I hire correctly when it comes to line producers and ADs and stuff. Their sweet spot is managing.
Right, that kind of stuff. Do you ask JB, do you ask them to protect you from information that you... No, I actually want to hear about it all.
I just don't want to have to fix any of it.
Yeah, I get that. So you don't take on for no apparent reason at all the anxiety of their jobs?
I do to the extent that it affects the harmony on the set. That's the part I get really passionate about.
Everybody deserves to have a great work experience. Yeah, me too. Jesse, never having met you before, but I've seen tons of your work. Do you think I should dye my hair?
Is that your question?
Yeah.
I heard about the sides. Sean, you look amazing. Doesn't he? Thank you.
Sweet little baby boy.
Listen, I was sitting there in silence just evaluating all of your temples, and I think you all look great in your different ways.
My piece is getting washed, so I've got the lid on. Your piece is getting lost.
What is that, Jay?
Is that a hood or what? Yeah, it's a shitty hood.
There we go. Oh, it's a hood. Oh, look at that. Oh, it's shorter than I thought. Okay, yes. So I'm going to make a guess about you and you tell me if I'm way off or not. Capricorn. Libra. I've seen interviews. I've seen your work. You seem extremely intelligent. You're very cerebral and you speak very quickly.
Why did you say seem? Okay, sorry. Keep going.
Cerebral. And so am I right in guessing that if... that one of your pet peeves is people that can't keep up with the pace of your intelligence?
Oh, God, not at all. No, I feel mortified and pretentious when I open my mouth. No, I- Oh, really? Yes, I'm aware that I probably sound like annoying to many people. No, no, you sound brilliant.
It's music. How dare you? It's classical music. Turn it up.
It's classical.
Yeah, yeah.
All I listen to. Okay. Because I do. Because I have a short fuse. If I'm like focused on something and somebody can't keep up with me, I have a short fuse.
Oh, God, no, I don't. Do you suffer fools? No, I have. I've got a tough time with that. Deep shame and self-hatred. I assume everybody else in the world is like kind of right.
But what about, how about said differently? What about people who don't work as hard as you at a given moment, especially when you're directing or when you're having to oversee a bunch of stuff and you've noticed someone's just kind of dogging it. Like, does that get at you?
I just haven't felt that way ever. I just feel like,
so indebted to that anybody's coming to the set and waking up at six in the morning and they probably have a dog that's being left home alone no I just don't ever feel that way but I think I'm just encumbered with guilt so like I just wouldn't I thought I wouldn't allow that thought to come into my mind because I would feel well why am I worthy of having that you know okay got it and we will be right back and now back to the show did you grow up in the city are you did you grow up in New York
I grew up in Queens and New Jersey, so I'm never Manhattan. Oh, you did?
Yeah. Oh, wow.
That's why I have this neutral accent.
Do you live in New York now on the East Coast? Yeah, I live in Chelsea.
Careful, Jesse, careful. You do? What do you mean, with what? He's getting close to the address. Don't give it to him.
No, he said Chelsea. He said Chelsea. Yeah, yeah, I can tell you the room.
Don't give him a street.
And no, I'm just saying, do you want to have lunch at Cafe Clooney next week? That's all I'm saying in the West Village.
Can I talk to you for a second?
Yeah. Why not? Yeah, we could do that. Yeah, it's a great place. I'm going to be there if you'd like to have lunch. You're going to get the table. Let me ask you about this.
The amount of focus it takes to write. I've done it once and it was a very long time ago and it was very humbling and I've got a massive amount of respect for folks that can fill a blank page.
Once you go through that process and you've really, you know, grinded away at the wordsmith of it all, and then an actor starts to play with that dialogue on set and starts to kind of go off a little bit and round the edges and, you know, paraphrase a little here or there. Are you good with that or does it make you crazy? And then I've got to follow up to this and I think you know where I'm going.
But go ahead.
Okay. Yeah, so, no, as a, like, again, my background is playwriting, and no one changes the words ever, because when you do a play, I mean, as you all know. You get written up. Well, yeah, that, but also, like, most playwrights are dead, so you're just not, theater actors are not in the habit of changing dialogue, you know.
And then, so, this is my second movie, and, yeah, I just, yeah, it doesn't, it brings weird to my ear, so I...
don't like it but you know occasionally somebody's so brilliant like kieran as you met he's so clever and quick and spontaneous so you know he would sometimes change a word here and there and it was always really good you wouldn't you wouldn't like come in you want to come in after taking go huh okay all right let's just check the script i'm just going to double check yeah so i'm just going to leave it right in front of you just yeah just because we don't have a coaster you must have gotten an old yeah exactly exactly
So then it wasn't onerous to you to work on Social Network with Aaron Sorkin's stuff, who is somewhat famously, you know, an um versus a is sometimes a problem. Like you have to really stay strict.
Word for word.
Is that true? Was that your experience on that film? And if so, was it a hassle? Yeah.
That wasn't my experience, but I don't also think I tried to change anything. It wasn't like I had a clever idea that was funnier than Aaron Sorkin's joke.
No, but just in an effort to make it sound sort of just naturalistic.
My character, that's really interesting. My character didn't talk in a naturalistic way. He was kind of like this almost robotic presence. And so actually, for me, it felt like this is perfect. In fact, the gamesmanship of adhering to this exact thing was part of the character. Exactly. I just saw it, by the way, like last year for the first time.
Oh, really?
Yeah, it was so good. And you got an Academy Award nomination for that, yeah? That's right, yeah. It's just incredible.
So good, right? Sean's got the official review. It's so good. I'm just going to log it. Make sure to log it.
Hey, um... Well, because I was like... I think I avoided it because... Oh, hang on, there's more.
Go ahead, Sean.
So it's a so good ellipsis. I avoided it because I knew there was going to be a lot of talking in it. But then I watched it and I was like, oh, I wasn't... I mean, this is Jesse's interview, but I'm having a tough time escaping from it.
I avoided it because I knew there'd be a lot of talking in it. We can go down that. I mean, if ever there were an example of why we're living in idiocracy, this is it right now. It's a fucking blight on the entire civilization. People like you have fucking encouraged us to know we're in this fucking hole we can't get out of because you want to drool in front of the fucking television. Hey, Jesse.
Anyway.
Having seen, having been in the social network, what impact did it have on you in your regard to social media, to Instagram specifically, social media in general back then, a few years later, and now?
I mean, I never did it and don't do it. But I don't know, I feel weird, like, putting more stuff about myself online. Like, it's already kind of embarrassing. You know, like, it's weird to be a public person in general, so I didn't want to go online. But that mostly has to do with my just complete discomfort with myself. And so, like, I didn't want to, like, talk about, you know, I guess things.
But, you know, I don't know. I'm suspicious of it for so many other reasons, too. And, you know, the movie depicts, like, this person creating it who does not have, like, what I would consider, like, kind of healthy social relationships. And so, like, if this product is the extension of this person's social behavior, then this is not great.
Well, yeah, that's a really good way to put it. In effect, that this person's behavior, this person's outlook on human relationships is now being projected. Exactly. as a way, as a mode of living and as a mode of people interacting.
And now... But think about it this way, too. Like, we used to interact, like, in kind of ways that are kind of mushy. You know, you would make a weird joke and the person wouldn't react the way, so you wouldn't make that joke again. Or you would find that somebody has the same sense of humor.
And like what relationships get reduced to like on like line and forgive me because I'm not on these things, but this is my kind of cynical like attitude towards it is like, we like the same band. And so it hooks us up and everything. And that's essentially like the character I was playing could interact with people like that on this very much like- We both like this band.
Let's stand here and talk about it. And, like, that's the way the thing works, too. It recommends this person to you. Or, you know, if you're dating, it recommends this person to you. And it just takes out, like, the squishy humanness that we have in our lives outside of the internet.
Yeah, for sure. However, I mean, because you speak, you've spoken before, you've spoken already in this episode about your, you know, Not to belittle it. To be honest, it's charming that you're self-effacing, sort of, you know, that you're comfortable with yourself. And I get it. We all are. But I feel like these social media things are meant to be a tool to actually help people
folks that don't... That's true, and probably it does. Yeah, that wouldn't get out to a bar and start... Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm wondering if, you know... I'm sure you're right.
I truly know nothing about this because I'm not on it. I haven't had the experience of being on it.
No, you're not. No, no. I think that that... Jason, I think that there is... That's where it's sold. Right, right. And I think that in its best version, were people actually looking to do that and it wasn't used as a way to enrich people, then that's what it would do. Unfortunately, what it's become is it's designed to keep you engaged to sell ads.
Now what it's done is it's designed to keep you opening the app so that your eyeballs will be exposed to advertisers. We all need advertisers. But it keeps us all employed. That is its design. And it's not to keep people engaged. And I think that there was a time that maybe that was the idea and maybe that's what the social... when it was called The Facebook, was about.
But unfortunately, what it has become is become this thing that's become incredibly divisive. And all it's done is reinforced. Instead of celebrating the similarities, it's reinforced the differences between people. It's had the opposite effect. It's stunning. All these kinds of things. We're talking about inclusion stuff.
All these things that all they've done is help create these many barriers between us all. and said, I'm this, and I'm this, and I'm this, and you're that. And we've created more division, I think. I don't know.
Yeah. That's my perspective. But my perspective is really as an outsider because I haven't been on it. But yeah, like that, it creates, you know, isolation, sectarianism, all this stuff.
Wait, Jesse, are you on social media? No, no, no.
I'm kidding. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'm actually live tweeting this whole thing. Yeah. Going great. Sean said social network is so good. Thumbs up.
Now, studying anthropology and social psychology in college, yes. Why did you study that when you knew you wanted to do what you're doing now? Or did you do it at the same time?
Yeah, no, I went to college for 18 years before I got my degree because I would go to a semester and then take off and work and then go back. And so I got my degree during the pandemic finally. Oh, you're serious? Yes.
It took you 18 years.
Yeah, exactly. It took me 18 years. Yeah, exactly. No way. Yeah, like the second 18 years of my life. Yeah, from 18 to 36. And I chose anthropology because that was my wife's degree. She graduated like many, many years before. So that was her degree. And I just wanted to, you know, have something to talk about with her. That's cool. Yeah, because I knew I wanted to be in the arts.
Yeah, otherwise she would not talk to me.
Will you define anthropology for me?
Yeah, anthropology is like the study of, and I'm using quotes, the other. It's the study of other cultures, the study of other people. What you learn from it is that your culture is not superior to another culture, even if that culture is, let's say, more poor or something. You learn to kind of view cultures as their own value to the effect that they have on each other.
So an anthropologist would go to study, famously, go to Samoan village, Margaret Mead is his famous anthropologist, go to a Samoan village and live with them and study their ways and everything.
I literally asked somebody last night who has a master in anthropology, I asked her to define, same question last night. She said something very similar and I said, well, what is the difference between that and sociology? And she said that sociology is much more data-driven. Is that fair?
Yeah, yeah. My dad's PhD is social psychology. And so he was studying basically like, you know, human behavior, irrespective of culture. You know, it was about people interacting with each other. Anthropology really focuses on like cultures. Right, right, right. Wow.
So, and you got your bachelor's or master's or? I got my bachelor's degree.
Yeah. That's amazing. Bachelor's degree and then your dad's got a PhD. Yeah. This is an accomplished family. Jay, what'd you learn on the set of Ned and Stacey? I remember you did an episode.
I learned how to scoop a bagel, you know? That's where I started really cutting the cards.
So Jesse, first of all, by the time you're 65, you get your master's. But second, you, that's really funny. What, in your studies, what is the one kind of culture that you found the most fascinating or actually interacted with or whatever?
Best and least, and least, to be fair.
It's the least fascinating culture. Okay, the most boring culture, you guys, is I'm doing top 10 worst cultures.
I would love if you got it on Instagram just so you could start posting things like the worst cultures.
Yeah. And this one is boring, but also stupid. So, okay, this one, no, I mean, well, I kind of like, I did my like ethnography, which is like, you know, your big thesis. I did it on this like, this restaurant in Chelsea that was like the last remaining authentic Latin American restaurant because everything else had been destroyed. you know, gentrified away.
And this place was, but it was so, it was kind of a cheat because it was like down the block. And I got to eat there while I was doing my field research, you know. But it was really interesting to see how this place was trying to survive against, you know, basically.
So you do restaurants.
I thought it was like cultures across the world. Like you're like. It is. This was cultural. Oh, okay. It was my wife. My wife went to Nicaragua. Restaurant review, dude. Yeah, no. Wait, what restaurant was it? We can always cut it out. It was called La Taza de Oro. It's not there anymore. Yeah, we published the thesis actually to Yelp, so it was interesting to get to publish.
No, no, no, I'm kidding. You know, not every student gets their work published, but for me, it went, you know, it was in the bottom.
When I got my PhD from food porn on Instagram. Yeah. All right.
Now, what about – let's talk about – was Squid and the Whale the thing that sort of launched you a bit?
No, I was in a movie before that when I was, like, 18. Roger Dodger? Yeah, Roger Dodger, right out of high school, yeah. And it was, like, the difference between having an acting career or not. Like, it was literally the difference, because I was supposed to go to college that year, and my dad, like, I pled with him. I was like, please just read the script, it's so good.
And my dad read it and said, okay, you could take off a semester and do this movie. And the movie was, like, not a hit, but was, like, popular amongst, you know, people who like movies.
And then that meant, again, God bless Wikipedia, that meant no NYU for you, but the new school when you were done with it. Yes? Yes. Oh, my God. Which paragraph are you up to? I've been up for at least an hour and a half.
Is that early career in school or are you on personal info?
i think it's under controversies because sometimes they mix it up you know what i mean like sometimes i think it's under cancellation um all right so then so you do roger dodger and you feel that there's something wait can i just say this sorry to get it can i just say it is a real i may have mentioned this before but it's a real testament to who you are in this world when your filmography has its own page on wikipedia have you ever noticed
Oh, yeah. What does that mean? That is something else. Well, he's going to somebody and they have filmography and he goes, and there's a link. Oh, it transfers you? There's a link because it has its own page. Oh, is that what's happening here?
That is the highest of cotton. That is the goal. That is the goal. You know you've made it when you have to transfer.
So there's a feeling that is very tangible that it's like, oh, I think I might be able to make a career out of this based on this sort of newfound access and inclusion.
Yes? Exactly. Exactly. And like right after that movie, I got like offered another movie and it was to pay scale. It was like a movie. I don't think it ever got made. It was probably like a – $50,000 budget. But I remember going to my dad and like, I could get jobs, like I could literally just get jobs.
Because before that, you know, I was auditioning for commercials and anything that I could possibly get an audition for and, you know, understudies and plays and stuff like that. So it felt like, oh, I can literally make a career and a possible living from this.
Right. And then what was the next big job? Was it Squid and the Whale?
Yeah, actually, no, right before that, I did this movie, Cursed. It was Dimension, and it was Dimension. So it was run by Bob Weinstein, and this guy would, it was crazy. This guy, basically, it was a Wes Craven-directed movie, and Bob Weinstein would just constantly scrap everything we'd done to the point where we shot, it was supposed to be a 55-day shoot. We shot 125 days. Oh, my God.
Because this guy, Bob Weinstein, who's not like, you know, a writer, you know, would just decide he wanted to change everything in the script, and it was crazy. It was crazy and fascinating to work with. with that man.
I wonder what he's up to right now. I think we know what his brother's doing, but I wonder what Bob is doing.
Probably his neck in lawsuits.
No, I'm kidding. What he's up to. I wanted to turn down the movie and he called me in for a meeting and he's threatened my career and then he said at the end as I was leaving, he said, I know where you live. I said, what? Jesus Christ. And I was like, are you kidding? And he was like, no, no, no. She told me, his casting director. He goes, no, no, no. She told me where you live. Oh, these guys.
Wow. What a duo. I know. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. When all this stuff came out, I was just like, oh, yeah, I've been telling this story forever. And people sometimes can't believe it. It sounds so shocking. And then, of course, my story was like nothing compared to, you know. Cute.
Yeah. Yeah.
All right.
It's just like a fun banter for a podcast, right?
Yeah, exactly. So now we're to Squid and the Whale with the great Laura Linney, the incredible Noah Baumbach, and Jeff Daniels. Did you learn a great deal from Mr. Baumbach there with the writing and the directing? Did that plant an early seed for you?
Well, it's just like he was writing just stuff that amused him. And so that was the trick. It's like, oh, yeah, you can write the things that you like, and it'll translate, you know, hopefully. And the other main thing I learned was from Lauren. I don't know if she ever did this to you, probably. But she had a slap me in the movie. Has she slapped you? Probably. Probably.
Probably.
Okay, so this is what she told me. Right before she slapped me, she said, do you know what the trick is to slap somebody in a movie? And I was like, no, please tell me. Thank you, tell me. Did she just whack you? Surprise. Yeah, she goes, you look the person in the eye and then you just, you hit them with your hand. And I was like, oh, that's not a trick at all.
And so she just spent the night slapping me. And that was the trick. And then in this movie I made with Kieran, I said, you know, I have to slap him at the end of the movie. And it's this big thing at the end of the movie. And I told him, do you know the trick? I learned this from the great Laura Linney. And I was like, you just, I slap you really hard.
You just gotta make sure you have eye contact. Yeah, exactly. Make eye contact. Yeah, which doesn't mitigate the feeling at all.
No, it doesn't. It makes it more personal.
If anything, it makes it worse. Exactly.
Yes, that's true. I've had to do some slaps, and I've found that you just have to change the timing of it on every single take so that you get that genuine surprise.
Oh, that's interesting.
Which is not really fair to the person receiving the slap, but it's great for the audience.
Unwilling grace, if we were to slap somebody, Jimmy Burrows would clap off screen. Wait, what? Time it for our face.
Really? Wait, but, oh, but you were not actually near them.
No, I would, you would fake the slap. You would go just in front of their face, but he would time it. He would just, you know, clap. Oh, that's interesting.
So that the audience would hear that it wasn't a miss.
Yes. Oh, interesting. The great Jimmy Burroughs. By the way, and that's the sound that they would keep in the show. Oh, wow.
JB, do you remember season one of Arrested Development? I was in a wheelchair, and I was wearing a hospital gown, and you were leaning down in front of me. It was the end of an episode, and you're leaning down in front of me, and as you lean down... I slapped you in the face. It was not in the script. It was apropos of nothing. I slapped you, and you looked at me.
And my bare leg was showing because I was wearing a hospital gown. And as you got up, you slapped the inside of my leg so much.
About as hard as I could.
Hard as I could. And in the show, I go... oh, just because it really happened. You fucking killed me.
Right, and it was safe to do that because you're in a wheelchair. You can't possibly get up and run after him. And my character couldn't get up and run after him, so he knew that.
Stay in the character, yeah. Oh, that's funny. I'm not dumb. Was it, it was not, it happened on one take? It's in the show, and that's the one they use.
And I learned on the tour, the SmartList tour, that Jason will just, I've never had somebody do this in my entire life, he will just walk up to me and slap me on my face.
Yeah. Just sort of like a, hey, buddy.
I love the way you act like you're just as surprised as everybody, Jason. You just went, yeah, I know, I learned that. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, like I just do that.
Like I do it all the time.
It's a love tap, y'all.
Well, it's pretty hard. We'll be right back. And now back to the show.
Now, speaking of magic, the magic of movies, let's get to Now You See Me. So there was a lot of magic in that or illusions. Sorry, Will, illusions. No worries. I would imagine you did a little bit of training for that. Have you retained any magical talents? Do you have a go-to card trick?
I do. I do. And it's weird because I have like muscle memory from it. We just finished doing the third movie like a month ago. And I just do the same one trick I know. And for audiences who are paying attention, they'll realize that the greatest magician in the world knows one trick. Yeah. I just repurposed the one thing I learned. Yeah. In a different outfit.
Someone was doing a magic thing at something I was at last week. And he did a series of magical tricks as they do before they're done with their set. And by the time you get to like the third trick, you know your mind's going to be blown. You know you're going to be like, oh, my God, how do you do that? And you just sort of like click into a gear of like, all right, let's see it.
Here comes another sort of mind-bending wow. And what I thought was what would really be impressive at this point is to now tell us how you did it. Yeah. I know I'm going to be shocked. What would be really impressive is to see how you're doing this stuff, how you've trained yourself and taught yourself to hide all these things that I didn't see. So when is magic going to change into that perhaps?
God, when are you going to enjoy life? When? When will you enjoy anything? That's the magic. That's the magic. My heart is breaking from you. I just had therapy, but when we're done, I'm going to call him and I'm going to bring you in, JB. Jump on with Terry. Fuck. I used to see a cherry. I want to hug you. I wonder if you see the same cherry. I really want to hug you right now.
I feel like there's just zero.
You can't experience wonder. I'll take it. I'll take a hug anytime or slab.
But Jason, there is this show on TV. It was called like Breaking the Magician's Code or something like that. It's like magic's biggest secrets or something like that. And they did that. They revealed all those big like tricks and how they did it. I thought it was fascinating.
I want to see that. I'll look at that. And then what are you left with? Then I'll just start reading ingredients on food packaging, you know, just knowing what's on the inside. There's tons of stuff.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Read credits on movies. You're going to peek behind every curtain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, when you hear about these, like, when you hear how these magicians have done the trick, though, sometimes it's far more impressive than the trick because the kind of work that went into making something look seamless is, like, you know, shocking. Yeah, for sure.
Right, right, right, right.
All right. Talk to me about your move into directing, why that happened and when it happened. Was it simply a result of you arriving at a place in your career where you could say, hey, I want to now direct and you had the sort of industry capital in order to say that? Or did it happen more organically than that? In other words, had you wanted to do it for a long, long time?
No, I've always just wanted to write plays. And then my last play, which was like 2019, just like wasn't received well. And I was like kind of really, yeah, like kind of heartbroken or whatever. Like the play wasn't received well. And I mean, the actors were amazing in it, but the play wasn't received well. And like, so I just was like, I have to try something else. I just made me feel bad.
And there was like scrutiny in a way that felt like mean spirited in a way that was like, oh, this is industry can be, I mean, movies can also be quite cruel. They really are. But there's something about theater because it's such a small community. I don't know. Anyway, so I just thought, let me try to... I'll do a movie next. Yeah. No, but I love writing plays more than anything.
But I just thought maybe I should do a movie because... Yeah, and the thing you said about Clout, that like... I did, I guess, feel not so much clout, but more like, oh, I feel like I've been around it enough to kind of have an understanding of what to do.
I know that sounds so lame, like I didn't go to film school, but I just felt like I've been on sets that have been great and I've been on sets that didn't work and I've been on sets that were terrible sets but made great movies and vice versa. Mm-hmm. I felt like, oh, no, I think I know what to do if I can write something that is, like, tailored to my limited skill set.
There's nothing wrong. Yeah, obviously, you're around it, you pick up on it, and it makes sense that you would want to sort of take agency and kind of do it yourself. And Sean, last week, watching his chef open tuna cans, and finally he was like, I'm going to open a tuna can. It's not dissimilar, you know what I mean?
I can pinch the top on and make the water come out.
Or at least let me try it. I can eat the Hershey syrup out of the bottle.
You know what I mean? Of course. And I think in Sean's case, it is cloud. You know, I think you feel you've worked up to this. And I think the industry recognizes that you can open that stuff. I didn't want to embarrass anybody. Yeah. It's good that you're finally in a place where you feel like, yes, I can do that, and yes, I'm not going to get— It's really good. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Eisenhower. So wait, so you were feeling a little in your fee-fees about getting the bad reviews basically on the play, and then you thought you'd go for something with even higher exposure, directing a film, where you would— opening yourself up to even more— A broader audience. Yeah. I was very brave of you. You went the other way. Oh.
Oh, thanks. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, but I guess I'm used to scrutiny. I mean, I'm used to scrutiny and I like, I care about it so much, I guess while it's happening and then literally not the next day. I just, you know, I don't want to be governed. Laura Linney said the greatest thing that I actually didn't hear her say, but my dad heard her on Charlie Rose talk about this 20 years ago.
But they asked, or he asked her, do you read reviews? And she says, no, because I don't want somebody else to tell me how to do my job. And my dad was telling me this because I'm such like, I was like a, you know, self-conscious person. And he said, you know, you're, who we were in that movie with, you know, this is how she views it. And it did really change my perspective.
That's interesting.
Yeah. It is a really odd concept. I totally understand the... the aggregate of them all, right? So Rotten Tomatoes, where they put them all together. And then there's sort of like a consensus. Does this work for the general public, I suppose, since you're making a public effort with your art. Yeah, of course. But specific reviewers, their specific take on how it affected them as an individual.
Well, we're not making things for one individual. We're making things for a whole public. And so it's not going to work for some people. And that doesn't mean that it's...
But I also saw, like, well, I think you're right about the aggregate thing, but at the same time, have there been films or pieces or music that have gotten bad reviews that you really like? Oh, my God, yes. Can you think of one? Think of a film of its.
The New World, a Terrence Malick film, The New World, got not great reviews. Interstellar, Chris Nolan's film, not great reviews. Sean, what about you? I love those two.
Yeah, interstellars. I mean, I can't think of them, but I know that I'll look on Rotten Tomatoes and conversely... The latest Batman film I thought was incredible.
Jesse, can you think of a film?
I mostly have it like with theater. I mostly have it with theater where like I am enthralled by a piece and then I look online and I'm like, how is this torn apart? This is the greatest thing I've ever seen. Because there's something about like... And I don't know, maybe that even has to do with like different performances offer different things. I don't know. Yeah, yeah.
But, you know, I do think that all the time. But I'll go the other way, too.
I felt the same way season three of Ned and Stacey. Sorry, go ahead, Sean.
I'll look at Rotten Tomatoes and something will get like 90% or 95% and I'll watch it. I'm like, oh, good. They did the work for me. It's going to be great, right? Right, right.
And it's terrible. I love Tenet. A lot of Tenet, the Chris Nolan movie got ruined. I've seen it three times. Right during COVID, it got lost, right? I loved it. Sean, you didn't love it. I loved it. I didn't get it. Yeah, I didn't understand.
You didn't love it. One more thing about the directing thing. Have you ever gotten a really crazy direction from a director? That's A. Yeah. B, how has getting... weird direction from directors affected the way in which you interface with actors?
Also, you know, being an actor yourself and like, you've worked with some incredible directors and I'm sure you've been able to cherry pick from the best of them and decided what not to do from the bad ones. But was there one in particular moment where you're like, I will never ever do that to a poor actor or crew member?
Only my friend, Ruben Fleischer, who I think you guys know, he did the Zombieland movies, and then we just did Now You See Me Together. I've worked with him a lot. And I just remember on the first Zombieland, we were shooting in what was supposed to be a mansion, and so he was several rooms away on the monitor, and I just heard this muffled scream, now smile! And I was like, what? I...
could, like, understand that he was kind of talking to me. Right. But also, I'm not, like, a smiler, you know, but also, like, it can't come... You can't... That's not the way you act. Like, oh, my face will smile, you know. Right, right. So, you know, so that was just something I was like, oh, yeah, I'll never do that. But I love Ruben, and now he's great.
But you guys have worked with Greg Mottola, I think, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's just, like, my favorite. Like, I just... The way he handled this crew and the cast, and I had, like... which happened to me maybe two or three times in my life. I had like kind of a panic attack during a scene and I just shut down and I just couldn't act. I don't know what happened. I just couldn't act.
And so it was on this movie Adventureland. I took him aside and I said, I'm so sorry. I don't know what happened. I think I had a panic attack. And I thought he was going to say, well, you know, we can't. I thought he was going to, you know, respond annoyed. And he said, I don't understand how you're not having a panic attack every scene. Like you're exposing yourself.
You're bringing your emotions. You're trying to not think about your own vanity. He is such a sweet man. And I just remember thinking, that's the way I want to think about actors forever, which is that they're already doing this difficult thing. They're trying to avoid thinking about their face being blown up on screen. They're avoiding thinking about the scrutiny that they're going to get.
They're trying to live in the moment despite a hundred strangers standing around them. And so that was a key for me. He's just the best, isn't he?
Right, which is why I don't understand. For the most part, we actors are pretty crazy. And I'm talking about myself. Like, I'm fucking nuts. And I'm filled with neuroses and insecurities. It is a helpful tool to pull. It's a helpful tool. to call on when you're playing vulnerable characters.
But the central thing that we are doing, which is being up there in front of the camera, sort of is at odds with the inherent insecurities a lot of us have. So speak about that because, again, getting back to, you know, you're so self-effacing and honest about your own neuroses. How were you possibly drawn to this incredibly, you know, exposing profession?
Because to me, to have like a prescribed way of behaving because of a character and lines, I feel so comfortable. Like the thing that makes me nervous is like you go into a party and what am I say to this person? Do I remember this person? What did this person tell me? Why do I have to be funny in this thing? I just want to go home.
Like to have like a prescribed way, like you're playing this character, they wear these pants that we put you in and you have to now go talk to that other person in this voice. Like this is the greatest thing in the world. So calming.
Now, what about, I had the same feeling and then I started doing talk shows when I was a kid and it freaked me out because you have to be you. And there is no script. And there is no you. Right, exactly. We talk about panic attacks. I'm prone to panic as well. And talk shows for a long time were just like my kryptonite.
It's the only thing that still freaks me out in our industry. Like literally nothing else but going on these talk shows at night freaked me out because I don't, I can't be funny telling a story for like the second time, you know? I don't know.
I've seen you on talk shows, Jesse. You're always, you kill it every time.
Yeah, you're awesome.
I agree. I've seen you too.
Because I try to not tell the story on the show that I told to the person before the day. Because I know if I did that, it would just be weird and phony. You'd be trying to remember what made them laugh on the phone. Kind of like a performance.
But if you get a great host like Kimmel or Conan or those guys, they'll go with you, right? Yeah, that's true. You can kind of freestyle and they can just get into a conversation and you forget you're even in front of people.
But you're doing this now, then you're doing Graham Norton. Do you ever get burnt out by all of the chatter that you have to come up with?
I don't. I don't. I feel like an adrenaline rush when I'm meeting people like you who are really funny. And him, I'm sure he's very funny. You know, you get the adrenaline rush of doing a thing that's fun. Mm-hmm.
Right, and when you're promoting something that you love, like this great movie, A Real Pain, I'm sure it's just like you could talk all day about it, right?
Yeah, I guess, yeah, because I've done junkets that we all have for things that have not gone well, and yeah, that can be really uncomfortable, and you're kind of just parsing the... Right, yes.
Before we let you go, I just wanted to find you on social media, if I wanted to find you on social media, what's your handle?
Yeah, exactly. It's atthereal, yeah. Atthereal. Atthereal.
Jesse, you're awesome. You're funny as shit.
You're talented as hell.
Nice as ever.
Oh, thanks. I love your show. Thank you so much for having me on it. Thank you, buddy.
Say hi to Karen and Daniel and Graham. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you very, very much for doing this, buddy.
You're very busy right now. This is such a fucking pleasure having you, dude. Oh, yeah.
Thank you. Such an honor, too. Okay, well, have a great morning. Look forward to meeting you one day in person. Yeah. Yeah. All right, buddy. All right. Enjoy. Bye-bye. Now, there's a nice fella. Love that guy. Yeah, he's really funny.
Love that guy. I had no idea what to expect. Did you know him before this?
No. Now I want to do a lot of in-person with him. I want to find him at a party and corner him.
I know. I'm going to Cafe Clooney to have lunch with him next week.
Hey, you don't. Nice pipes, Will.
Will just removed his sleeves. I know. Jesus. I just rolled them up.
Will, what part of your brain came up with Ned and Stacey?
I don't know.
Well, that's the place where Will and I first met.
That's where Jason and I first met on the set of Ned and Stacey. What are you talking about? That was Debra Messing's show.
He was buddies. Yeah, correct. I was doing a guest shot on it, and Will was friends with Nadia... Dajani. Dajani. And we all went out for drinks after the show, as one does, and there I was with Will at the bar, apparently getting hammered because— We were getting hammered, and Jason had a very weak bladder because he kept going to the bathroom. Yeah.
And— And it was years later that I said to Will, after I had put down the bottle— Like seven years later. Yeah, I said to Will, and Will hadn't been drinking either for a long time. I said, boy, fuck— I wish you and I had really gotten together when we were drinking.
And we would have had so much fun.
And he just looked at me and goes, oh, we did. And I had no recollection of partying with him that night.
That's so funny. I love that Jesse.
I mean, that Jesse Eisenberg, he's really left me in a great, great mood. High quality guy, high talent guy, high intelligence guy. The guy, he's a writer. He's an actor. I guess you could call him. Bye. Talented. No? Sorry. I'm trying not to go. I'm trying not to do the fucking Sean. Bye. Like what? You do it. You do it. Let's hear it. Okay. Bye Talented. Yeah, why is that?
Why do you go into that?
It feels good. It feels really good in my throat.
Can we harmonize the Bye Talented?
Okay, ready? Ready? Go. One, two, three. Bye. Bye.
No, someone's got to go high.
Someone's got to go low. Someone's got to go middle. I'll go middle.
I'll go middle. You go high and Will will go low.
Ready? Ready? Go. Sean, you start. Okay. No, you got to start at the base. Bye. Bye. Bye. Talented. Talented.
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