Kristin Demoranville
Appearances
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
I think that that's a very optimistic viewpoint of what's happening in the industry, because a lot of times you can't talk about a cyber attack. It's like Fight Club, you know? Usually there has to be a massive investigation. They're asked, the lawyers get involved. There's possibly a privacy violation, all these things.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
And I think the founders of the companies that are small, medium, not necessarily large, maybe a little large, are more inclined to be more transparent because they can be, because they can be more agile, right? There's less detriment.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
So if something like a larger brand, like, I don't know, one like JBS happened or Dull Package Lettuce or any of those, that's a different conversation because that's, major, major dollars. That's major, major issues. This is why I do love our big brands. Absolutely.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
But I love our small mediums because they need more love from us, both on a technology front and a marketing front, because they are doing this out of a major passion. Could be that they're sharing a generational recipe depending on the product that they're making. So there's a lot more personal effectiveness and you'll be affected personally more so if you're tied to the brand in that regard.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
This is what I wish cybersecurity in general would share more across the board. We tend to keep things really close to our chest. And for those who are listening, they know I don't have to like beat them. This is a dead horse conversation, honestly. But it's hard. And I love that the food industry, especially, and I know you've seen this, Marina, is really trying to be transparent.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
Transparent in all aspects. Food safety, food defense, the whole, they talk about it. I sit in these conferences and they talk about it. We're trying to be more transparent. They want to be so transparent that they actually go down to the exact seed that grew the product that potentially caused the problem. Yes. Which I think is brilliant.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
And I really hope that that carries forward into technology more and more and more because we need it to. We desperately need it to. I think that how can a consumer trust a brand if they don't even understand what they're doing on a digital front?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
right yeah so that's that's the that's the weirdness that's going to start happening more is that consumers are going to drive this hey i need you to be more transparent because look at what the company a is doing they're doing that right why aren't you doing that you're bigger than them and badder than them like what's going on um yeah i'm waiting for that moment it's happening slowly but i'm waiting
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
which makes it a unique challenge when you're building a brand right because that's that's part of it like consumer response so how how do you how do you deal with consumer response to a brand like negative or positively i suppose that's something i've always wanted to ask like how do you how do you negotiate that how do you adjust the branding based on customers because what if they didn't like your apple
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
Thanks so much for tuning into this episode of the Bytes & Bytes podcast. Your support means the world to me. I have some really exciting news to share. I've been nominated for the Women in Podcasting Awards in the Technology category. please vote for the show. Your vote would be a huge help in gaining visibility and raising more awareness for cybersecurity and food and agriculture.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
Voting is open from August 1st to October 1st, and you can find the link in the show notes. Thank you in advance for all who vote, and I couldn't be more thrilled. Now back to my conversation with Maureen.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
Where did that nefarious behavior start? Was it human-driven? Was it an accident of a fat finger? We don't know yet. Was it physical? Was it digital? Was it intentional? Exactly. And I believe the entire operational technology security side of this listening house just went, mm-hmm. They all went... Oh, yeah.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
The milk contamination thing is interesting because it's in the media, but it's not really in the media. It's sort of in this like, we're not sure. Nobody wants to report yet until we have more findings. But we're all talking about it and we're all nice about it. And it's funny because in the last six months, and it's funny, not funny.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
breakfast cereal and like I distinctly remember that as well so dairy all around and unpasteurized milk or raw milk has a different flavor for sure I mean I realize that's a controversial conversation anybody from food industry is probably cringing just chill out we're talking about like a while back right the hippies will love it though because it's the new thing now is it really is yeah it tastes like liquid ice cream that's the only way to describe it to you because I've had it as well and it's amazing and but again I'm not advocating for anything so nobody think that it
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
But I've been saying, like, what if a hacker or a bad actor decided to mess with the pH of milk? I've actually said this on air multiple times. And and here we are and build contamination. I'm not saying I'm a I'm a fortune teller and I didn't have any insider information at that point. I just use it because milk is very prevalent in everybody's life.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
You know, we put it in tea, we have it with cereal. We make pancakes with it. Like it's just kind of one of those things that we all know what it is. And if a milk supply was damaged in any way from district and a distribution front, we're in big trouble. Like it's a problem. Think about that from the brand perspective.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
dramatically increasing so like people are eating more cheese more cottage cheese more butter stuff like that you know like remember the whole butter thing with like the butter boards was a whole thing that was nasty by the way like the fact that people were creating butter boards i don't know if listeners know what these are it was very popular in tick tock especially during the pandemic when they were smearing butter on a cheese board if you will and then like sprinkling various topics then a topic on it like honey salt whatever
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
And then they take crackers and eat it off the board. Now, if that was just a party of one, like a girl dinner, like no problem. I should have that.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
How is it going to develop? Don't know yet. We don't know. And also, it's not just a U.S. problem. It's a global problem. This has happened in a couple other countries, like Japan is an example with kids in school. And milk is important to that culture as well. They have milk right after they leave an onsen, a spa. I remember being a kid. I drank milk after I would go running.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
I was a long distance runner in college and high school. And it was always milk you went after because you wanted that electrolyte sugar hit. You know, that's what you wanted. And those kind of things. So this is going to change people's routines. It could change up a lot of things.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
I think it's scary because I remember the milk ads when I was a kid, like the milk mustache, like all the different ads about being strong. Got milk campaign. That was huge when we were kids. Yep. Huge. And that was that was the brand identity. I mean, it still is in some ways. I think they still do the gut milk in some aspects, in some places.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
I have a good friend who lives in Wisconsin and, you know, he's going to probably be working. His next job will be in a cheese factory. I was just going to say Wisconsin cheese. They've done a remarkable job branding themselves. They really have. I mean, I think having the football team with the cheese heads probably really helped. But let's be fine. But the Midwest in general is known for cheese.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
I mean, I lived in Minnesota for a while. I mean, cheese curds were a thing like I'm not fond of them. They just were like oversized cottage cheese to me. And I wasn't really OK with that. Cheese is an important part of everybody's lives, whether you eat it or not, because there's plenty of vegan cheese that's delicious. And there's some controversy on vegan cheese.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
And I understand that because it did almost win like a major award this past year and then happened and it got bumped out. It was a blue cheese, actually, which is even kind of more strange. But vegan cheese actually can be quite good. Like, it just depends, right?
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
I love the use of cottage cheese because I'm on a real cottage cheese kick right now too, because it's a quick snack too. And you don't feel guilty eating it. Apparently people become quite inventive with their cottage cheese. Yes. Like recipes. I saw someone add cocoa powder to it the other day, blend it up and it turned into ice cream.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
It's very good. Most people can't tell the difference, to be honest. Sometimes the flavorings are so good, you can't tell the difference, especially the texture thing. But not everybody's palettes were fine for texture. So, you know, it's one of those things. But yeah, I never thought about it like that. Wow.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
And to think that the branding got ahead of it, that's fascinating because that's a good way to take out a brand too. If you think about it, if you were a nefarious bad actor, because social engineering is ultimately what we deal with in cybersecurity at the core, whether it's through malware and all these other things you have to manipulate in order to get through.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
If you manipulate the branding that far, that actually could lead to a cyber attack as well. So if you think about it, it's all sort of part and part in the long run. And I realize everybody's like, that's probably far-fetched, Kristen. No, it's not. No, it's not. Because at this point, nothing surprises me. when it comes to what we deal with on a daily basis. Yeah. Wow.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
That's, that's fascinating. So lactose free milk is still considered milk then, right? Cause it's still a product of an animal. It's just, they took the lactose out. Yes.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
And I was like, okay, I can get behind that because I don't feel guilty eating that.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
I just, I'm so fascinated that we have literally taken almost every nut and seed because actually a sunflower is a seed, obviously. Yep. Most nuts are seeds actually. And we've somehow made them into these beverages like that. And that wasn't a thing we thought about 30 years ago. That was not a thing. I mean, you drank milk. That's what you did. Right.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
You had a glass of milk with your spaghetti at night and that's what you did. Yeah. or with your, you know, uh, grilled cheese or with your, uh, other various foods. I can't totally. Yeah. That's, that's what I even still think about it when I'm having something like that. I'm like, where's a glass of milk when I need one Oreos, how Oreo branded with milk.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
And they're now like people are, they're synonymous together. Like you have a glass of milk with Oreos, which is brilliant because that works out well. I'm not a big dunker, but I can respect it. Uh, So how did you take your living on a dairy farm as a kid and you're doing all these things? How did you stretch it all the way to where you are now with this branding moment?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
Because you obviously live the life. So you have this great angle of looking at things. And now you've moved into this branding conversation and dare I say anything to do with like social media and all that other fun world. How did we get there? How did we... Because you even offer your own podcast, Spill Salt, right? Which I think is a brilliant name because... Spilled salts. Awesome.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
Like, it's sort of like it's sort of like, you know, tea, like, exactly. Right now, spilled salt. It's great. How do we get here? How do we get through all this? Because the way you know, so many people to we actually have common industry friends, which is crazy, because we have this intersection here, too. So I'm just interested. Yeah.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
That's good because I thought I was the only one who threw extra protein powder in there. Because I feel like, especially as women, we just can't get enough protein. We are sneaking it into everything as much as we can. I even dump protein powder in the pancake mix I make myself. Oh, smart. And nobody knows. Well, now they do. I'm like, how are they going to know?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
Welcome back to another episode of the Bites and Bites podcast. I'm your host, Kristen Demarenville. Today, we're shifting gears a bit from our usual technical discussions to focus on something equally important, branding and marketing in the food and agriculture sector. Why should you as a cybersecurity professional, food expert, or OT specialist listen?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
I'm literally like, how are they going to know? Yeah. They dump enough syrup on it. So why would they know? Right. But it's good for me because then I can have one pancake and not feel like I'm like destroying my day. Yeah. Anyways, a dairy farm. That must have been amazing. I'm sure you had your favorite cows. So I, yeah, I mean, I didn't know anything else, right?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
I think it's so important to note that you realize that you needed to niche because a lot of people think I'm crazy that I niche down in cybersecurity into food and ag. A lot of people are like, oh yeah, that's important. We probably should care about that, right? And I'm like, yeah, you eat, right? Because it's the second thing you do after you're born. You scream and then you eat. So I think...
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
I think we kind of, as humans, we kind of focus off because we're too busy chasing, you know, the profit tail. And we don't realize that we need to focus on the things that matter. Keeping people fed, water. Yeah. And you can move them to electricity and all the other fun things that we deal with in our modern lives.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
But I think that the niching down is going to happen more and more in all kinds of industries because we need to target focus. We need to have that boutique experience, if you will. Yes. In these industries because they need our help. It's not... You can't just have blanketed skills to go into some of these anymore.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
You need to actually know what you're talking about and walk the walk and talk the talk. And I wanted you to say all that too, Maureen, and thank you, because I want people to realize that they can do that. They can come out of their own life experiences and they can move forward into what they're passionate about. They don't have to be restricted to, I'm just this and I only do this, robot mode.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
It can be more. It can be an impassioned moment. Agency29 is the strategic and creative agency for leading food, beverage, and agricultural brands. Specializing in strategy, identity, and marketing, Agency29 elevates brands to new heights. Discover more at www.agency29.com.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
Founder and CEO Maureen Balotori is a highly regarded speaker and workshop facilitator, bringing visionary insights to every engagement. Learn more at her website, maureenbalatori.com. So as we're winding down here, I'm going to swing it back to cybersecurity.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
How important is cybersecurity in your opinion from what you've talked to with your clients and fellow community for food and ag brands in protecting their business identity and customer data?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
It's too bad that they, first of all, that happened. And I, all my hair goes out because people don't realize how difficult farming is full stop. It's a very difficult job. It's yeah. It's a lot of highs. It's a lot of lows. Sure. Some smarty pants on here are like, why don't they just make it into ice wine? Because that's not how that works. Right. Yeah, it's not.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
So people are trying to make the best of bad situations like California with the fire and all the smoke taint that's coming off and hitting those vines. Now, some smoke taint's okay because they can still bottle it and it's sort of got that barbecue-y vibe to it. But you can't do that for a full load of like Chardonnay or for Cabernet because ultimately ruins the crop.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
You can't remove that taint either. It's literally a taint. And I think that this is where I think the technology is going to come in a lot more. It's already in the vineyards. It's already in agriculture. It's here. It's very much here. I had a conversation actually with a reporter yesterday talking about what type of tech is in vineyards. And I was like, a lot.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
And I asked him while off, there's going to be more tech thrown at these problems to fix it, right? With more tech, that means more internet connected. Totally. Totally. More people who are just going to connect without realizing that it's not going to be secure by design. Most products aren't secure by design because they're out to turn a profit. So they want to get it out quickly, right?
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
They're not going to spend the time to necessarily make it secure by the hardware aspect. But when it comes to these type of consumer commodity technologies, you know, they're going out the door rapidly. And it bothers me because now these farmers have to become cybersecurity experts or IT experts.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
Sort of goes back to the John Deere tractor moment where they had to start hacking their own tractors just to fix them. Right. Thankfully, that's now been changed and they can work on their own tractors. They shouldn't have to do that. And I've heard from other type of ag companies and like soybean is very concerned about cybersecurity. I've heard from the corn, the same thing.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
They're very concerned. Yeah. But the problem is, is that nobody's specialized enough to start working on that. And this is where Andrew's super important and why the work I do, because we're constantly trying to be like, hi, hi, we can help. Just talk to us, please. Like, we really want to help. It's difficult because I don't want people to run around and think, oh, it's a lot. We're all lost.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
We're doomed because we're going to have another frost and everything's going to happen. We can't fix the frost problem.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
But if we could prep people ahead of time with technology that's prepared them for it so they can potentially, I don't know, early harvest or late harvest or whatever needs to happen, the tech will help eventually to be able to get to a point where maybe this won't be as so devastating. Maybe it'll just be more of a bump in the road.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
But again, it's that aspect of everything's going to be connected to the internet because people want to sit in their homes on their iPad and be able to eat dinner with their family, but yet still be able to monitor whatever's going on. Yeah.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
It'd be like a little robot shell that like hits it. Yeah. We could have like an Iron Man shield around the vineyard. Who knows? Yeah.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
Yeah, trust is a hard one. And once it's broken, it's complicated, right? Even when cyber attacks happen, regardless of if it's a product or what it is, you'd start to distrust that brand a little bit more. I'm not going to name names because it's not worth it. You definitely are like, hmm, those people had a cyber attack. They're kind of shady. I might go with this brand instead or whatever.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
I think we're going to we're going to see that more and more. But also kind of the running joke in the cybersecurity community is you're not really a company until you have been hacked because otherwise it's going to happen anyways. But because it's happened to everybody now. So because of that, we kind of just joke that like you're real now. You're welcome to the world. You've had. Yeah.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
Yeah, no, there's no guarantee. There's never going to be a guarantee. You can't guarantee in this business. And if anybody says otherwise, please come find me. Right.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
I mean, there's even a term in cybersecurity called zero trust, which is basically not allowing anything to come into your network. That's ultimately what it means. But that's such negative branding, if you think about it, because zero trust to people who don't understand what that is. So what what does that mean? You know, and I could see people getting really upset by that.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
I don't like the term. I don't use it if I don't need to. But I think that in general, cybersecurity needs a rebrand in itself when it comes to food and ag. And I'm so glad that we talked today because you definitely echoed that for me. How are we going to do that? We need to come in maybe with more peace offering. Like, hi, we come here as friends to be your farmer.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
Oh, I'm sorry. I feel that. I think I knew somebody who had a hay allergy, rode horses when I was a kid and obviously we were feeding them hay and things like that. I think someone said they couldn't touch it without gloves. Otherwise they'd break out into hives. And I'm like, that's really aggressive. But they still rode. They still dealt with the pain. They didn't, yeah, I wanted to be there.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
And I have met a lot of resistance, but I'm also meeting a lot of people that are really interested in helping and want to be supportive. Like the food protection teams are all about this. They're like, anything we can do to help food safety. And we understand cybersecurity is part of it now. So we want to help you get there. That is such a great community that I've started with.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
And that's actually given me a lot of hope that eventually food and ag in general will break down a little bit better.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
I think that's brilliant advice for anybody who's listening, who's trying to break into that area there with getting to know your FBI field office so you can report these things as well. Anyways, thank you so much for being here, Marina. Like I've learned a lot.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
So I hope the listeners have too because this has been a fascinating episode and I definitely think we're going to have to have you back probably with Andrew so we can like completely geek out about all the things in ag tech for sure. We'll need a translator for that one, but thank you for having me. It'll be all right.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
And I will make sure that all of Maureen's information is in the show notes so you can reach out to her and her company. And if you have questions, obviously she loves to meet people. So don't feel shy about reaching out to her on LinkedIn and beyond. Thank you so much for anything you want to say before we go. No, thank you for the opportunity. This was wonderful. I appreciate it. Great.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
Thanks so much. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of the Bites and Bites podcast. A big thank you to Maureen for sharing her incredible wisdom and insights. Don't forget to like, follow, and share this episode. And remember from August 1st to October 1st, vote for Bites and Bites podcast for the Women in Podcasting Awards. Link is in the show notes and on the website.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
So I completely understand that. But I'd never heard of a hay allergy until then. I was like, that's a weird thing to be allergic to. Yeah. Makes sense though, based on, you know, all allergies that we have now. Right. Kind of the seasonal bliss that we all deal with. Yeah. Thank you for that. Will you introduce yourself since we've already kind of gone down that road a little bit? Sure.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
Also check out the show notes for the links to today's conversation and hop on over to the website for even more details on today's episode and more. Stay safe, stay curious, and we'll see you on the next one. Bye for now.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
So both food and BEV for CPG. Yeah. And I think we ended up connecting because I stalked you on LinkedIn. I'll just be honest. And because I noticed that you were working a lot with small vineyards and medium sized vineyards. And I was just like, who is this woman? I must know her now. Like, this is amazing. And the fact that you keep going on site.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
And I think it was that one post that you put up and you're like, look, I got gifts because my clients are awesome. Oh, yeah. Yes. I was like, yeah. Yeah, I was like a woman after my heart and I had to talk to her. So yeah, I think it's amazing what you do with these companies. And I think also watching the community building that you've done. I know it's like online and things like that.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
Because brand is everything in the food and agricultural industry. It's all about trust. And as Maureen will explain, that trust is foundational to our work in risk management. Her unique perspective on branding is invaluable and can enhance how we approach our responsibilities. So let's get started. Maureen, thanks so much for being here.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
And obviously, you know, that's what it is. But I can tell that it's really life changing. And you can see it, you know, when what's happening. And you also work with some restaurants too, right? Like restaurant brands.
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
And keep doing it because we need more of that. Less of the crappy noise that we all deal with. But, you know, I like the positive vibes for sure. Mm hmm. I know that obviously everybody's like, why are you talking to a marketer like this is a technology podcast? Well, marketing is super important to technology. I don't know if anybody's caught that yet.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of cybersecurity marketing. Shout out to anybody who's listening from that side of the house. But branding to the food industry and the ag industry is super important. And that's why I wanted to have Maureen on because I really want to dig into that. And like what that means for us is trying to protect the brand from a different side of the house.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
In today's day and age, can you give us kind of a little bit more of what branding means to the ag sector now and the food industry now? And you can even give us a little timeline if you want, because the branding really kind of took off like in the... I'm going to say the 40s, probably a little before that, but we really felt it more after that. What do brand means to these companies?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
What's important about it from a food and ag standpoint? Because like, why do we need branding in food and ag? Tomato is a tomato, right? Like, why do we need to brand the tomato? In fact, I can't even name a tomato brand. Actually, that was really sad analogy. Yeah. I should have thought of something else. We'll talk about milk. We can talk about milk. There's so many brands of apples.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
Well, actually we've done a lot of apples and that's an excellent example. And also what happens when a brand suffers and we can say from a cyber attack or an incident and what that does to the brand and how do people stay resilient through that? Do they stay resilient? Can they stay resilient?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
I'm actually super excited that you're here because this is a topic that we haven't talked about on the podcast yet. And I'm excited for the listeners to hear all of your wonderful wisdom nuggets that you're going to definitely drop on us. So let's just start off with what I always start off and I actually really do adore this question. What is your favorite food and your favorite food memory?
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Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
And I don't want to necessarily talk about like super crisis management because that's not a world I want to get into with you. But from your standpoint where you've seen it, go ahead. Yeah.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
They do not need to be the same thing. Okay, they don't have to be the same thing.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
But you know what? Everybody's really curious, though. So I'm sure somebody was like, wow. And you got me thinking that it's like the opposite in wine. We know wine based on the brand name of the wine, not the grape that goes in it. So I always get sort of flustered when people ask me, well, what's your favorite wine? Because they're expecting me to name a brand. And I don't keep track of brands.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
I keep track of grapes. Like I love a petite for dough. That's like, that's my jam. I love that stuff, you know, and I can't name a brand that does petite for dough. Cause it's a blending grade for dough or very good. If you're on the U S side, it's something like that. But it's so funny how apples are sort of like risen up as their, their actual name. I'm sorry.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Brand & Butter of Agriculture with Maureen Ballatori
I just find that to be really fast. That's fascinating me already.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
I was like, oh, wait a minute.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
so you dip it in the marinara kind of thing yeah a little bit a little bit of that definitely it's really good but i do love lasagna is my favorite thing probably shocking that uh someone from the uk likes chips on the side of the lasagna just gonna put that out there because every time i ask for a side at dinner in my house it's always chips the answer is chips all right
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
And you're also harvesting or cultivating your own mealworms right now. Did you tell me that?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Live their best mealworm life. That's amazing. Thank you both for your introductions.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Hey, everyone. This is Kristen, your host from Bites and Bites podcast. It's Pride Month. And at Bites and Bites podcast, we celebrate diversity because without diversity, how can we have a secure global food supply chain?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
I want to give a shout out to my friends over at Bare Knuckles and Brass Tacks podcast, which is hosted by two Georges, George K and George A. Bare Knuckles and Brass Tacks is a cybersecurity podcast that tackles the vendor customer divide with real conversations and practical solutions. Since its pride month, Bare Knuckles and Brass Tacks is raising money for LGBTQ plus organizations.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
This month, the profits from their Pride merch sales will be donated to Out in Tech and a scholarship fund for LGBTQ plus cybersecurity students. The Pride Bare Knuckles and Brass Tacks logo t-shirt celebrates every color under the rainbow in cybersecurity.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
And the profits from this shirt go to Out in Tech, which is a nonprofit dedicated to uniting the LGBTQ plus tech community by creating opportunities for members to advance their careers, grow their networks, and leverage tech for social change. You can learn more about Out in Tech at outintech.com.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
There is also a special t-shirt that features a message that's handwritten by co-host George K's daughter to support transgendered youth. Proceeds from this shirt will fund a scholarship for LGBTQ plus undergrad and graduate students pursuing cybersecurity education. You can learn more about the scholarship in the show notes.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Check out their Pride merch store and get your swag on with one of these shirts at their merch website, bkbtpodcast.shop. I've already ordered mine. Join us and Bare Knuckles and Brass Tacks in supporting Pride this month. All the information and links can be found in the show notes. Thanks for listening and happy Pride.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
So let's jump into some questions that I have because everybody's probably like, well, why did you bring these two Andrews together other than it's fun because their names are the same?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
There is purpose actually, because I want to have a conversation more about normal, normal, I say in quotations, practices in cybersecurity, but also let's swing in at how it relates to food and both of them have industrial backgrounds. So it works out just for the audience understanding.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Andrew, in the UK side, based on your extensive experience in industrial cybersecurity, AKA the airports and beyond, What are the key lessons that the food industry can learn to improve their cybersecurity posture, in your opinion? Oh, gosh.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Absolutely. And I think this is why cybersecurity has to be included in food safety culture, because the more you tie it to the safety of the food, the more people will care about it and the more they'll, you know, be careful, I guess is what I'll say.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
I'm glad you said that because that's very true, especially even just in straight up manufacturing. It's availability that's the king, if you will. That's so important. And I was thinking about since we were both at RSA recently, I was thinking about the marketing information I saw walking around. I don't know if you happen to notice some of it as well. I'm sure you couldn't not actually.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
But there was one particular vendor who said something like, we eliminate all operational technology risks. And I was like, so you take the people out? Like, that was my immediate response in my head. And it was funny because I ran into another host of another podcast who interviewed me on the floor and I said it to him and he was like, wait, what?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
And I was like, yeah, you got to take people away from it. If you keep people in there, you can't eliminate all risks. There's no way. And you just said that. It's crazy to think that people think that you can do the X, Y, Z, da, da, da. But if you don't train your staff or they don't understand why it's important and where they should care, that leads to more problems. And it's so frustrating.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Pipeline is a great example, but I was thinking of JBS. That also showed that you have to have important disaster recovery. This is continuity planning. You can't retract beef once it's hit the trailer. There's no food or pasture necessarily for them to go back to the farm. And it might have been struck pretty far depending on where they were coming from.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Now you get stressed out meat that's defecating on itself. Yeah. And there's all these other additional food safety issues that are happening because of it. That was such a devastating situation that has such long-term effects. And God knows the payouts were rough. They were paying so much, not only for the ransom, but the cleanup, if you will.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
And they don't, this is the problem is, oh, it's not going to happen to us. But if it does, we'll be fine. How can you assure, how is that assured? Like, I don't know. That's frustrating.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
I completely agree. Andrew from the U.S., do you want to weigh in since you're on the front lines of agrotech?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
I'll try to find it for the listeners and put it in the show notes. I've never heard of a pizza tour before. Like that, that is interesting. And the fact that it goes into the science of it, that's incredible. It's amazing. Wow. I mean, I think we could probably geek out on pizza then because that's great. Like that's fantastic. Thank you for that. And other Andrew.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
That's a really graphic description. Wow. I think the thing that's really interesting about this is the it's such a distinctive difference between the enterprise side and the industrial farm, a whole bit manufacturing that people keep trying to twist it to be like enterprise.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
So when they talk about it in groups, like especially, and I'm sure you've run into this too, where you're trying to explain what you've dealt with in your career and what you've seen on the industrial side to someone who's only been in enterprise, they kind of look at you funny, like, but why would you do it that way?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
And my response back is a risk in your environment isn't necessarily a risk in my environment and vice versa. It's the people that are always going to be the biggest risk, full stop. Whether it's their safety or they're doing something or didn't mean to do something or something happened. Most of the time, it's the people that are causing the problem. I would say probably 90% of the time.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Technology doesn't wake up one day and decide to give itself a virus. You know what I mean? That's not something that it does. If it starts doing that, then we're done. We've got bigger problems. The days of it's become sentient, it's here. No, not yet.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
What I think is frustrating from a cybersecurity point of view is I feel like I have to evangelize so much into the cybersecurity world to let them know that this is a problem, that agriculture and the food industry need help. And not because it needs help, but because it's the right thing to do too, because we all eat, you know, we need to care.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
And the fact that it wasn't added to the 16 critical infrastructures or 15 at the time until 2020 completely pisses me off. Like- We've been eating and harvesting and doing this for the dawn of time. And here we are not realizing that we need to care about it because oil and gas go first. Automotive goes first. You know, water is not even really a consideration at times.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
We have to rope that into the food industry because it's so prevalent in not only the production of food, but creating food. And I'm actually at a place where I'm simmeringly angry at all times about it now. We need to do something. Like we need to keep talking about it. All I do is evangelize. Like, hi, we need to care about cybersecurity and food. The food teams get it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
The food scientists, the quality people, the protection people, they understand. The defense teams definitely get it because we can help them fight food fraud and obviously all the drug issues that are happening in the food industry. But it's just like, why aren't cybersecurity people click? Where's the light bulb moment? Why aren't they understanding this? Is it because it's too hard?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Because it's too, I don't know, food is a very emotional thing, you know, because we have that connection to it. I just don't understand. That's where I get a little annoyed. And this is just me sharing a general annoyance.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Yeah, I know enough about the UK side in terms of the food industry and the agriculture side to know that it's a very regulation driven. There's almost like a police for everything, which is I don't think it's really a bad thing because it's keeping you honest. Right. But to the point where the farming, let's be real. And I think
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Andrew might be able to weigh in on this too, isn't exactly like a money-making role. You can make some money in it, but you basically break even, or you pray to God you break even by the time the season's over. It's so much stuff that they have to deal with. The weather, which is constantly an issue, obviously. The soil, because it's being destroyed. Bugs, because bugs are a problem.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
And then human factors. people being jerks around the fields, doing other things. And then now people are saying, oh, you know, they got all these subsidiaries and all these things, but that doesn't necessarily help with what they need to deal with on the back end. And farmers are very concerned about their data. They're very concerned about where it's going.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
As the consumer becomes more educated, they're going to want more and more tracking. Like what plant did this particular soybean come from? It might come down to that. And that's an incredible amount of pressure that's put onto the farm. That's more stuff that needs to be dealt with. It's actually been stated in multiple reports that the food industry is a low hanging fruit.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
The food industry just needs support and help from all of us. That's really what it needs. And I hope that as people are listening to this, they start to ask questions critically, even when you're watching a TV show like Clarkson's Farm, because there's quite a bit of tech on that. He's got a tractor he drives around with a joystick. Something like that.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Or when you watch like a show about food factories or something like that, do you understand the food safety ramifications of having that crew in there or what that looks like or how they produce? Do you have questions about, you know, follow the network cable? I want people to ask those critical questions. And I have that come to me quite often. How do I get involved in food?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
How do I get involved in operational technology security or ICS? How do I get into these things? Stay curious and ask a ton of questions. Get to know the people who work with it because it's the people in process at the end of the day, as we've already said, that are going to make or break a situation.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
So with all of that, and your US side, what are some of the most pressing cybersecurity challenges facing the agriculture and food production sectors today? Because that just flows beautifully into what we were talking about.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Speaking of that, will you explain why GPS is important to planning? Because I think a lot of people are like, oh, who cares if GPS knocked out on trackers? You need to care, by the way.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Hey, listeners, I hope you're enjoying this insightful conversation with the Andrews. Just a quick reminder, if you love the show, please share it with your friends, family and coworkers. Also, give us a rating on your listening platform. Believe it or not, it really does help promote the show and reach new listeners.
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The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Check out the new merch store on the website. There's a variety of items from aprons to T-shirts to hats. and even some stuffed animal toys. Lastly, if you have a few minutes to spare, please complete the audience survey on the website. It's a great way to give your feedback about the show. Finally, thank you to all the listeners.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
The show has just passed 4,000 downloads since we started in October. And we are listened to in 65 countries. It's just amazing. And you're amazing. And your support means the world. Now back to my discussion with the Andrews.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Probably close to 48 hours due to travel.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
That's awful.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Welcome to another episode of the Bites and Bytes podcast. I'm your host, Kristen M. Moranville, and today I have a really special treat for you. Joining me are two incredible cybersecurity experts, and yes, they are both named Andrew Rose. Thankfully, their accents will make it easy to tell them apart.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Well, let's talk about that just a teeny bit. So, and I'm not going to get into the politics. So don't think that that's what this is going to be. We're just talking about the outcomes. The Ukraine is a breadbasket for growing, right?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
And now that they can't as much as they need to for even supporting their own country, but they also support out to Europe, that's putting pressure on to other areas that are flourishing in agriculture, such as like the Netherlands, for example. So let's talk a little bit about what that's doing to the rest of the growing area of EU. What's that going to do to the US?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Because we'll have to export if we do, if we choose to do that. In other places in the world, because we've already got food insecurity all over the place anyways, and people who are starving because of various other reasons, global climate change, various other things, other wars. How is this going to affect, in your opinion, the global food economy, if you will?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
I was born in Maine. So like you just touched my heart. Like that is, that is it. And actually the episode before that I just reported, it's probably been released now. We were talking about lobster rolls. So like, this is great. Like I, I love that people are into lobster. I'm like, yes. And of course I'm kind of like growing out of it now because I've had it so much. So I completely,
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
No, it's okay. And I think it's especially important to talk about this in some capacity because we are a global food supply.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
So I think what happens in one area affects the other, even though the US is somewhat insulated and we have our own issues, even the UK to a degree is somewhat insulated, but we still have issues on the borders, on the outside that are going to put pressure on our interior farmers. And since we've already got issues with environmental factors that are causing... It's been so hot in the UK the last
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
two years, two or three years during farming, during season, that their yields aren't as high and they're driving costs all over the place like you just described. So here in the US, we have some of the similar problems. And I don't think people realize how much of a trigger we're on with some of this. Every bite of food that we take is a privilege.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
I always remind myself of that because I understand what it's like to have that moment where the food is in front of you is what you're going to get. And this is what you have to deal with. And if you want to, if you cannot waste it, it will go in the refrigerator and be leftovers for some other amazing meal the next day.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
And I think of that often, especially within the food system that we're working in. And it's scary, but it's not to the point where we can reverse some of this, right? We can still work through this. Like you said, we're primates. We're just trying to figure it out, right? And as someone who studied primates, gorillas specifically, I definitely feel that on a whole other level.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
The basic needs will be met no matter what happens. Hopefully it's just not in chaos.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Yeah. We just have to work with it, I guess, is the best way to do it and adjust to it rather than, oh, it's the end of the world. It's not. We just have to make adjustments that may be a little bit uncomfortable. Swinging it back into cybersecurity. And this is what I love about doing this show is because we kind of expand our knowledge set a lot more when we talk.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
As a cybersecurity expert, and I think both of you agree, the more you're informed about the things around the systems that you protect and the different type of people you protect, the better you can be at protecting them. Because if you don't have that knowledge, then what are you doing?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Andrew, I'm sure when you went and worked with the air traffic control, I mean, at the time, were you an air traffic control specialist or was that something you learned on the job?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Yeah. Actually, you know the trick with that is since, you know, I also live close to Maryland, so blue crabs are very popular here. I don't crack shellfish. I just, I think I got attacked by like the antenna too many times when I was a kid and I just kind of like am over it. It's just gross. It's a giant bug.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
No, we're definitely a very rare, small, niche-y breed of people. And we're very proud of it, actually. We get us in a room and we all completely geek out together. We really are a community, which I appreciate. And not just on the U.S. side, it's global. We talk to everybody. We're trying to educate more and more. I mean, I've double-niched myself between OT and the food industry.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
So I'm kind of like a party of one, you know, a lot. Yeah. Which is okay. And you know what? I'm hopeful that people will join the party because we do have a lot of fun over here for food and ag. As we're wrapping up this conversation, because wow, I feel like I've learned a lot, which I really appreciate greatly.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Is there anything that you want to discuss about some of the future trends that are coming up? The things that are going to, we need to keep on our radar, not only as cybersecurity professionals, but any of the food people that are listening and beyond.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
If you sit next to people and you ask them what their favorite part of the lobster or the crab is, they will literally crack it for you and hand it to you. So you don't have to do anything.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Based on the FBI, right? I've sat in some food defense meetings talking with the FBI, and they always keep saying, get to know your field office.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
you just walk around the table and be like tell me your favorite part and then they'll give it to you i've tried this multiple times it works so i don't have to touch anything this sounds really weird i mean it is it is weird but it's delicious it really is and you have to have a lot of butter for the lobster like drawn butter with lemon yeah absolutely yeah Yeah, you have to definitely do that.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
And it's amazing. I actually love steamer clams, fried steamer clams with shoestring onion rings or fried scallops and like little really crispy fries. Like those are like, I crave those daily almost. Can't get them unless you're like on the beach because you could have like a little bit of grit of sand in it because that's just like the way it should be in like a little gritty sand in it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
I think also having agro tech in general be built with security in mind, as well as really super important. So any product security people that are on here, hello, can you do that for us? That'd be great, because it would just get that little bit more of okay, we're somewhat protective. And now we just have to do everything else around it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
That would be a lot more assuring, I'm sure to a farmer than just going down to like the local farm store and buying, you know, a drone that doesn't necessarily, you know, connects and everything, it could cause a problem or something like that is a bad example. But I really think that we need to have better product security inside of this, the farm tech.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
That's great advice too. As we're wrapping up for a final here, any last words before we go to the listeners?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
It's like childhood all over again, thinking about it. Oh my goodness.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
I really wish that people would share more. And this is why I always say that cybersecurity in a lot of ways is about mitigating shame. It's not just about risk, it's shame. Because people feel a sense of shame when they get hacked. They feel a sense of shame when they haven't done enough or they have to report it. They have to suck in, oh, I did something wrong.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
I don't think people realize how much we don't look at it like that. We're like, OK, what happened? All facts. Okay, good. Now let's deal with it. Or this is the things we could do to prevent that feeling in the first place.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
And I really wish that people would deal with the shame up front and know that they just have to deal with everything that's going on to avoid the icky, oh God, we might've killed somebody because we poisoned our food or something else really bad happened or people just died.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Yeah, let's not, we need to stop that too because that's, you know, scapegoating isn't going to help in the long run. Just makes your company look like a bunch of jerks. That's frustrating. And then here we go back to the simple aspects of farming. Again, they now have to worry about cybersecurity. It's kind of a bunch of crap, right? Because this is frustrating. They just want to grow plants.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Like this is what their family's been doing forever or whatever they've chosen the career to do it. And now here we are overloading them. So the idea is to make it easier for them instead of fighting with it. Yes, you have to report when things happen. Yes, you need to reach out to your peers. Yes, you need to talk to people. You all talk to each other anyways. Keep talking to each other.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
You know, we need to know what's going on. And we really have to stop this silo thing that we have in cybersecurity and beyond of we don't talk to each other. I hate that. This is what makes us insecure. We have to communicate things that are going on and not because, oh, shame, legal. Oh, I can't talk about it. You could talk about it and just not talk about it. You know what I mean?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
There's a way we're all really good at it. We're all really good about not talking about companies. But yes, something happened. And we need to share the steps that were taken instead of the after effect of crisis teams and all of a sudden recovery. And we're going to be resilient through this.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
If some kind of major incident happened at a small farming company or a midsize farm company, it would take them out financially because nobody has 10 million in the bank necessarily, right?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
When that white paper releases, will you please let us know? Because I know I would definitely like to read it. I'm sure Andrew would read it as well.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
wow yeah so good i'm excited for that white paper and i'm terribly sorry that that happened to them because we do feel that like we don't want this to happen to people it some people think that we're you know we're ambulance chasers we're not and everything that's happening is happening because we've all said it over the last couple decades we needed to prepare for this we haven't so these are the consequences and i want to just make sure that we have safe food for everybody in the supply chain
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Thank you both for being here. This has been a great conversation. I have adored it. I will have all the ways to contact both Andrews in the show notes. Probably some of the other fun things like secret pizza and Scott's pizza tour will probably be in there as well because we're all ultimately foodies at the end of the day.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
And I will make sure I put some of the reporting things that Andrew had mentioned such as IC3 and things like that. So So thank you both for being here. Really definitely appreciate it. We're going to have to do this again, obviously, because clearly we ran out of time.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
We'll have to wait until he gets declassified or something, and then we can have him on.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Anyways, thank you both for being here. Really appreciate it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
That brings us to the end of this Bites and Bites podcast episode.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
It was a long one, but you made it through, and hopefully you gained some new knowledge about agrofoods and cybersecurity. A huge thank you to my guests, Andrew and Andrew, for sharing their experience, wisdom, and most importantly, their time. All the information discussed during the show will be in the show notes and on the website.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Thank you for listening, and I hope you have a fantastic day or evening wherever you are in the world. Stay safe, stay curious, and we'll see you on the next one. Bye for now.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
I will let them tell you about their backgrounds, but let's just say both Andrews are well-known in their respective cybersecurity domains. I am honored to have them both on the show. We had a fascinating discussion about cybersecurity and agri-food and had a lot of laughs. This will be a longer than normal episode. Trust me, this conversation is well worth your time.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
So are you doing the triangle scones or are you doing the circle scones?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
That's great. And the biggest question, though, and I know Andrew will agree with from the UK side, is it cream before jam or is it jam before cream? Because this could be a make or break conversation right here.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
And there it is. I couldn't get behind it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
I don't know. I never made it. So that's a, I have no idea.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Okay. That's good to know if I ever made it. No, I actually, I actually just like iced tea black. I don't really put anything in it. So, and most of the time it's herbal tea here, except for when the in-laws come over, they usually bring like a huge bag of tea over from the UK, even though we could buy it here, but it's cheaper. So that's what we get. Of course, a cup
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
of tea is a very complicated conversation anyways because everybody has their tea a certain way and if you say i'll take a cup of tea well to me what kind of tea do you want because i have like 16 varieties at least and it's just a normal cup of tea what does that mean like So it's always just black tea whenever Tetleys or whenever I've got kicking around the house.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Just makes me laugh because it's always like this part of like a weird conversation, always with tea.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Okay. I will try to do that. Usually I just throw it in, but you know, my partner likes it very weak and I like just leave tea bags in because I don't care. It's strong and it's fine. But he's like literally like two seconds in dip and it's like, you want a whisper of tea. That's what you should say, a whisper of tea.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
So grab your favorite snack or beverage, enjoy your workout, commute, project, housework, or simply drive safely. Let's get started. Well, hi, everyone. Welcome. I have the privilege of speaking to two, you heard that correctly, two Andrew Roses. I'm honored to have them both here. They both have a wealth of experience.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
There's a lot of oddness. I still am learning terms. I'll be honest. I don't, I don't say like, like kitchen roll or kitchen paper. I was so confused about that for a long time. It's paper towels. Like I didn't understand. I kept being like, why do you, what do you want? I don't, we don't have any paper in the kitchen. What are you talking about?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
I'm getting better because now I translate for all my U.S. friends. I feel like that is now my service to the community as I translate British to American quite often or vice versa because sometimes we say weird things that you guys don't get either, which is fine, which is probably most of the time.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Well, the nice thing is that you can literally insult somebody and they won't even know it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Because it was written in a British accent. So it was just like, oh, it's okay. It's fine. But I love the scone making for you. Like, I think that's great. And the one question I have about that, though, the big one is, what is your favorite type, like kind, like flavor-wise that you like?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
No, I think that's great. I mean, nobody can see our faces, but both of us were like, what? You're doing too much. It was what I was thinking. You're doing too much. But it sounds like it would be good ultimately at the end of it. So I was hoping you'd say something simple like cinnamon chip.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Wow. That sounds amazing.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Well, we don't live that far away from each other, so I'm sure we can figure it out. We could have a meeting just to exchange scones. I will not be baking them. I'm not about that measurement life, so I can't do, I don't bake at all. I would rather just throw the ingredients in a pan and make it magical for dinner rather than measure. It was time for measurements.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
I'd have to rival my mother. That's a hard one because she's an amazing baker too. So like, and my little sister who makes like macaroons and all these other crazy cakes. And I don't know, maybe I just don't want to compete with my female relatives on that front either to get into a bit of therapy there. I don't know.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
So now that we've talked for quite a bit, which is awesome, let's do some quick introductions. Andrew, in the UK, I will have you start.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
So I'm going to quickly jump into our favorite omen of the podcast, favorite food and favorite food memory. Andrew UK, as I'm going to call you, you can start.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Double Andrew Rose Special: Insights on Cybersecurity in AgroFoods
Agreed. Thank you. And I love that you've done the airports and the air traffic control situation. Not many people can say that. So I love that you have a uniqueness in your own niche, whereas Andrew and I also have that uniqueness with the food. Andrew, go ahead.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Are you tired of stuffy cybersecurity events with the same old steakhouse dinners and whiskey tastings? Yeah! Then buckle up. For the Cybermen's Battleground, Brought to you by the irreverent cybersecurity podcast, Bare Knuckles and Brass Tacks. On October 9th in Denver this year, we're mixing up the energy of a comedy roast with a freestyle rap battle.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
I am number one, not number two. To create a cybersecurity event like no other.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Yeah, let's see how you do under pressure, oh! Vendors will have just minutes to pitch their products without using jargon in front of a rowdy practitioner audience.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
This event is designed to break through BS and bust barriers to build real relationships. For sponsorship opportunities or to participate as a vendor, email bareknucklespod at gmail.com. Don't miss your chance to be part of this groundbreaking event that's bringing street energy to cybersecurity. Yeah, definitely. I completely understand.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
I think that aha moment, George, is something that I consistently have in this industry because I am innately curious and talking to people who do this production work, they tell me stuff I learn something new every day. And I think it's amazing. And also that aha moment when I was doing my degree in environmental management, it was like the light bulb clicks.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
every couple seconds like oh my goodness really we do it like that that's what that is oh no like and you just get kind of like super overwhelmed because you start to picture the whole ocean when we need to just start making cups of tea instead of boil the whole ocean if you will and it's a very daunting task because we didn't put cyber security in mind when we put this tech in
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
It wasn't even a thought. It was just, oh, I need to do this because we're going to get higher yields, better production, it will be better for everyone all around. And they didn't think, oh, nobody's going to hack food or tamper with food because we're good human beings. Everybody's a good human being. Nobody's going to mess with food.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
And lo and behold, we're seeing this in real time with Ukraine, as an example, and other places. Yeah.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Yeah. And I think the other article recently I just ran into, because obviously I pay attention to a lot of the farming community news, they've been talking about the quality of the soil because of the wars that are going on. What's going to happen to the topsoil because of it? And of course, people are like, that's a stupid thing to worry about a lot. The Earth will just heal itself.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Yes, but the Earth takes a while to heal itself. It's not like it's a snap of the finger and it's magically healed by some massive technology that us humans have created. Probably destroy the planet more if we try to create a technology like that. Let's be honest. But I think the fact that people are looking at this in such a systems thinking approach, this is what's happening here.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
It's going to affect here. You know, it's all interconnected. And it just goes to show you how fragile the food system is ultimately and how fragile the food supply system is. And again, how do we how do we deal with this? I feel like I spent quite a bit of time, George, educating the cybersecurity community that this is a problem and there's tech there.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
A bit on air, I've talked to people who literally thought that cows were built by hand or that nothing's secret or safe inside the food industry. And I had to 100% clap back and say, your favorite snack recipe is secret. That's just a random example. And then how the machines are made to create your said favorite snack.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
I worked for a company that they created a machine that suspended eight blueberries in one mix. And they had to do it in such a way that gravity was being restricted. It was very, very engineer crazy. But that patent for that machine is secret. They obviously wouldn't want a competitor to know that. How to suspend blueberries in a mix.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
So it's just, it's frustrating to me that I have to not only help, I'm obviously helping the food industry and that's great. And I love that. And that's where it fills me up. But I have to like turn around to my competitors.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
colleagues and be like hey guys are you thinking about this in a you know a holistic manner in which it encompasses everything and what you're doing over here probably is affecting over here and bottom line you're probably hurting a farmer i i it's one of those moments where i'm constantly having to to have that conversation and obviously part of the reason why the podcast is here is to open that space up more and have those conversations and that dialogue between all the different people that are involved in the stakeholders
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Exactly. And it's so great that you brought up that traceability aspect because the food safety side of the house is that's their big thing now, traceability. Because they need to be able to trace it back and what happened in the food. They know that they're going to have to use tech to do this. Basically, they want to check all the way back down to see.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Welcome back to another episode of the Bites and Bytes podcast. I'm your host, Kristen Demmer-Enville, and today I'm excited to be joined by the extraordinary George Kamidi, co-founder of Mind Over Cyber and co-host of Bare Knuckles and Brass Tacks.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
So that's what they would like to be able to do at some point. But that traceability aspect is already very prevalent in the food side because it's part of their mandate. It's part of the regulations now.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Correct. Yes, it's very much true. And we won't even get into s bombs. But like that starts to get real, like, creepy and scary. And people are tackling that. And that's not for me. But I appreciate the people that are doing that work, because that's definitely a lot of traceability and, and ability to be able to communicate what's in something to software in this case.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
I do think that we're going to need partnerships and collaboration when it comes to traceability, when it comes to cyber events. We need to normalize feeling like crap when something happens. Yes. I was speaking to another colleague who does the work that I do similar, and they were talking about how there were two ransomware attacks that hit this year.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
One paid the ransom, one didn't pay the ransom, and they increased. They equally both were screwed. It was definitely a bankrupt situation on both sides, just for one purpose or the other. But what this person was telling me that they were really saddened by, besides that fact, because that's horrible in itself, was the emotional reaction from both sides. One company was angry and just volatile.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
The other one was remorseful and shameful and crying, like grown men crying. And I said, are you okay? Because I was a cybersecurity expert going into help. Are you okay? And the response back was yes, but I was not prepared to deal with their emotions. I did not know how to do that.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
and it got me thinking that as cyber security experts we see people literally at their worst like at their worst moment you have to have such a high level of emotional intelligence to be here to understand to either a not absorb it or b take reaction to it i was just speaking at a meetup group yesterday just with some new newer coming into the world of cyber and there's part of me that always wants to be like right away but not like in a joking way but uh-huh you would not be the first
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Yeah, I'm sure. But I was talking with this one person who had just come out of desktop support and is now in the identity space, which I thought looks great. And I was talking to him and he said, you know, I really feel like my time in desktop support and IT really taught me how to deal with people. And I said, that's great. Hold on to that because you're going to need it. Trust me.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
I said, you're going to need to know how to handle an executive who chucks their laptop at you from across the room. you know, when they're angry about something. You're going to need to know how to handle a boardroom that's full of people that are upset because they didn't understand what you're trying to say because they didn't get the research ahead of time and you dropped a bomb.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
And then you're going to have to deal with that fallout.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
It's like you've failed and you didn't fail. Yeah. Yeah.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
It always is a connector for sure. I feel like just about every culture has some type of like rice and beans and meat.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
And I think specifically in the food industry, because it's such an emotionally charged industry. And I'm not saying like food people or farmers or ranchers are emotional. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying it's a heart and soul moment. There's a lot of heart that goes into these jobs.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
And to have something that happens that you have no control over or you feel like you have no control over, it makes a person kind of half crazy. One of the best trains I ever got, George, honestly, I don't. I've had tons of technical training over my, say, over 25 years now.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
The best training I ever got, aside from all the leadership training, aside from everything, I was culturally trained how to handle random scenario situations that were emotionally charged inside of different cultural environments. And I'm talking about country environments. I'm talking about work environments. I'm talking about industrial environments.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
And I learned so much and I actually went through two rounds of it. I went through like the advanced level as well. And I just remember absorbing this like I was this like kid in school again and just really loving it because it resonated so heavily with me because we need to do that kind of work inside of cybersecurity.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
But the problem is, and you know, there's two George said, if you go to speak about this at a conference or you go to pitch it as an abstract, people were like, what does this got to do with anything? This doesn't make any sense. Why would anybody want to talk about this or learn about this? And I feel like the industry is hungry for it. I feel like they want to know.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
And I also think that it's important to be able to serve and protect our communities because crises, as I've learned recently, are really about the community level. It's not about like the big picture because the community is what's affected. And how do we serve better if we can't even manage our own community? But these are my little journeys.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
They probably like kernel. I don't want to talk about popcorn or kick in or something, you know.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
And I think that is some of the coolest thing because it's about community at that point, right? It's about what you can get in the local community and it binds people together differently. And I've also had something similar experience-wise when I was in Puerto Rico.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Hey everyone, just a quick break to share some exciting news. We've hit a major milestone, 5,000 downloads. Thank you so much for your support. Also, the show is still up for the Women in Podcasting Network Awards of 2024 in the technology category, and your vote would mean the world to me.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Please don't forget to cast your vote by October 1st. The link is in the show notes. Let's keep bridging that gap between cybersecurity and the food industry together. Now back to my conversation with George.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
I do think there is an interesting movement in the food industry to focus on some of the softer skills though. I'm thinking about like the regenerative ag farms like Vital Farms and Muffin Greens and not to call out brands, I usually don't, but two examples of companies that are taking the most of tech and also educating consumers on what's going on in their companies.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
And they're very transparent and open about it. I think that people will be more willing to spend a little bit more if they knew where their food was coming from and how it was prepared and what steps are being taken to protect it around all these different aspects and avenues than if it's just whatever. But I also think about the imbalance of our food supply in general.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Cheaper to buy a hamburger at McDonald's than it is to buy three apples or whatever it is now. I think that we've got that kind of layer of crazy town as well to deal with. There's too many factors in here. And then if you chuck in the food safety aspect, how we're basically one breath away from some kind of foodborne illness at all times. It's kind of insanity to me.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
I was there on an outreach trip and Rice Campoya and Beans, it was the most delicious thing I've ever had in my life because it stewed for, I don't know, 12 hours or something like that. Yes, yeah. But it was more than that because it was about the people who were serving it to me. You know, I knew that they had given their time and their money that they didn't have that much to give to do this.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
So it may not be as weird as you think.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
This is my opinion of that. And I am not a scientist working on this. I want to make this very clear, but it's probably being moved around by humans. So example would be if you walk into one facility and then you walk out and you go to another facility, you're probably taking that contaminant with you.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Recently, I was rereading some food safety training brief because I was curious what they were saying about this particular industry. And one of the things that jumped out at me, which is like such an aha moment, but yeah, that's like a dumb thing. Don't come to work if you're sick and you work in food. That makes sense to me. And I never thought about actually calling out.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Yeah, please stay home. We don't, we don't, nobody wants to get sick. I think we all kind of learned that lesson in a really different way because of the pandemic, for sure. Regardless of where you sit on the spectrum of conspiracy around it, we all know that germs are past because humans touch things. We get them. We're taught that very young anyways.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
So I think part of it goes into this aspect as well with the contamination of all the food lately. I think everybody keeps asking me like, why do we have such listeria poisoning? Like all this E. coli, what's going on? And I said, you have to follow the trail, literally. You have to think about it in that, you know, holistic sense of where does it come from? And how is it moving? What are we doing?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
What are we not doing? And I think this is this is the part that scares me is because if that system's broken, how how exploitable is that? You know, that's what keeps me up at night is knowing we're a breath away from some type of foodborne illness because somebody, whether it's a nation state or some jerk, just wants to mess with our food.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
And I have sat in labs, George, ICSOT labs and watched people. production lines being manipulated and you didn't even know what happened.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Literally, lights didn't change, it looked like everything was running fine, but yet on the output later on when you're watching the forensics data, it shows what they did, changed the pH by blah, blah, blah, and you have an entirely new product in front of you that hit the shelves and could hurt people. This is what, this is when I feel like, and I'm, this is again, a little bit conspiracy.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
I was actually expecting Georgie to say something about Japanese food or I was not expecting that at all.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
So just everybody bear with me. I don't think that security as a whole, cybersecurity as a whole is going to really take up notice on what's going on in the food industry until something really catac, like a catastrophe happens. Cause we are definitely the bandwagon group of. all this traffic happened and everybody all of a sudden has an opinion and is an expert on it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
And I don't want that kind of wake up call because that, first of all, that means people might be hurt. But the other part is I don't want people who don't know talking about it in a manner of, I read an article, I read a book, so that's why I'm now an expert people. And I'm afraid of that happening in the food industry and the food supply.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
That's something that really does make me upset and keeps me nervous.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Hello, listeners. It's time for today's breaking news segment, where we'll bring you up-to-date headlines from the food industry and examine how cybersecurity plays a role in these crucial issues. First, let's turn our attention to the Boar's Head food safety crisis.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Boar's Head, a well-established name in deli meats, is facing a severe public health crisis after the Listeria outbreak linked to their ready-to-eat products. Tragically, nine people have died and 57 others have been hospitalized, many who will suffer from lifelong complications as a result.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
The recall of these products was issued, but that was only part of a much larger problem. Recently, inspection reports shed light on unsanitary conditions at one of their facilities, including the presence of mold, insect infestations, and leftover meat residue, which likely contributed to the contamination.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
In response to this crisis, Boar's Head shut down the Virginia facility, discontinuing its Liverwurst product, and formed a Food Safety Council, composing of top experts to prevent future disasters.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Next, let's discuss the avian influenza outbreak. Since April of 2024, 14 human cases of highly pathogenic avian influenza or bird flu have been confirmed.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
These cases primarily affect poultry workers exposed to the infected birds. Though human cases remain rare, the virus has caused widespread concern within the poultry industry, leading to the culling of hundreds of thousands of birds to contain the outbreak.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
In response, the USDA and CDC have heightened their surveillance efforts and reinforced biosecurity measures at poultry facilities nationwide. That's your breaking news update where food safety and cybersecurity converge. Stay tuned for more insights after the break.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
I think the ability to be relatable and to find the ability to find common ground is what's probably the most important. I will say that food safety culture has adopted cybersecurity as part of its culture processes now because food defense is very similar to what we go through and in cybersecurity.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
I do appreciate that I have been welcomed by that side of the house in terms of an ambassador for cybersecurity, because that's kind of why I look at myself when I'm an ambassador for cyber, because they don't know enough about it to do anything about it necessarily, but they need to be informed enough where they won't do harm.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
And I do think that every cybersecurity professional, and this is my opinion, has that responsibility to be an ambassador for your sector of security. whatever that means. You are a representation of what that part of the sign of the house looks like. This is why the hacker in the hoodie has stuck so well and it's become this number of things for what a hacker is, is because it's easier.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
It's easy for people to understand what that is. I constantly have to remind people that not all of us are hackers, that we actually, some of us are, you know, we talk about risk and we talk about system thinking and we talk about different ways to avoid being vulnerable and be resilient.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
And I really, I want to leave our episode on a positive note because it's been a little, you know, we've been a little
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
harsh that's okay though i feel like you and i sort of especially are okay with being a little harsh but we need to really move away from recovery into resilience and i know that's like a hot button thing and i kind of need that every bell whistle on the marketing trail but i actually really do believe that that that you're going to get hit with an attack it's going to happen but can you survive it or you're not hit by an attack but your critical supplier is
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Exactly. What happens when, you know, your counterpart, your partner gets hit? Is that going to affect you? Are you liable for that attack? There's questions there. I've had a lot of those questions recently of do you have strong security riders? The beef industry is worried about this because the GBS attack, they're still concerned about it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
They know that they need to work on their whole supply chain. But because everybody keeps focusing on boiling the ocean and not making that cup of tea, it gets really daunting. And I always say, let's start with the basics.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
is your door of your house locked did you lock your windows is your alarm system on do you have a guard dog you know we go through kind of like the basics of that understanding and then i say do you feel like you have a window open upstairs it's not locked where is that in your facility do you have concerns and then that's where what you mentioned george the shame kind of comes in is getting people to realize that it's not a shameful moment to admit that you probably have something wrong or something's not done because we can just deal with it it doesn't have to be okay great congratulations yeah
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The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Yeah. And I think that we should start throwing spaghetti at the wall, you know, and start seeing what's going to work and what's not going to work. I think it's not going to be a one size fits all that fixes the supply chain. I think a lot of people are looking for that silver bullet. And I'm just like, yeah, no, it's not going to be that.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
It's going to be little increment fixes here and there, kind of like playing Tetris. You just kind of have to work through it. And I wish I had a silver bullet. I wish I could say like, this is the magical thing that will fix all of your needs. Like, I don't, I can't, there's nothing that I can ever come up with, probably be that anyways.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
But the small little changes, the small adoption, adoptions of different behaviors, because to me, it's people in process always. Tech isn't going to break itself. It's people that do all that nonsense. And I think people get confused that because of AI and all kinds of other spinny things around that, they think that machines are causing the problem. No, it's people. It's legitimately people
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
the problems and i this is where i say social engineering is really the state of cyber security at all times we are constantly trying to figure out how someone could do something why would they do it how would they get their financial motivation to do this or just be disruptive in general i often think that adversaries are like angry teenagers like just chaos Just chaos. And that's how I see it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
And it helps because it's like if you've ever been to like a punk like gig or a punk concert or like a rock concert or a metal concert, it's like pure chaos at times. The pit's going. Everybody's freaking out. That's how I see an attack happening. Like everybody's just freaking out. It's like the attackers, the people are being attacked. It's just this chaos. Right.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
But somehow there's sort of order to it. You just have to kind of work through that moment and like, OK, this is what we're going to do now. We're going to clear this the stage. We're going to get the person out who got crushed in the pit. You know, like, and that's how it kind of would have to go. And the fact that, again, we are constantly looking at this global food supply, all this stuff.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
We really just need to focus on the company, all the suppliers around it, and the employees. That's it. Like, it's all you need to think about. And then don't add new tech without considering cyber. But that drives me up a wall. Like, you said technology. Cyber should just be right there with it, like, as a friend. It's like salt and pepper. We don't say pepper by itself. We say salt and pepper.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
You have to say tech and cyber together. And that would be a magical moment for a company if they could do that consistently.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
George brings a unique combination of expertise in both anthropology and cybersecurity, and today we'll be exploring the human factors, cultural dynamics, and complexities of the global food supply chain. A special note before we begin, I want to acknowledge something important.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Or what they were eating when they saw the site. I've gotten that quite a few times. And I love it how people get so passionate when they talk about food. And especially all the guests that I've had. I had someone that I didn't expect completely nerd out on pizza on air. Just so excited about the whole process of it. And the making of everything. And the temperature. And the pressure.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
It's true. And I think what we need is to nurture and foster more of, and I'm going to use the term, it's probably not the right term, the disruptors inside of organizations where they're not the The ones who don't sit in the silos, the ones who can go across the silos, right? And they can be able to move freely. I'm going to go on a limb and say, that's you and I, George.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
We're very much those people who can move across silos without issue. And I will say that I've always been labeled as a problem because I could flow in different spaces and I definitely could- Stick to your lane. Yeah. I got stuck to your lane. Stop being so Northeast. You're too aggressive.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
And the rest of the people are just thinking, man, I just need to get a pizza pizza. It doesn't matter. I don't care about it. But listening to people get so impassioned by the food that they love makes this more of a joy for me as well on a personal level. I really love people's stories. So I do have a question about the tacos though.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
I've gotten all the things, but I think some of that was probably because I'm a woman as well. But that's a whole other show, too. But I will say that the food industry is they want us to be there. They want help. They recognize the problem. They're big on forecasting. So they do try to plan for three to five years at all times.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
And I think that that is an opportunity for us to come in and be partners with them and help. hopefully lean a little bit more on breaking cultural norms and inside of business and becoming just what we are as human beings. We're just trying to survive, you know, have kids, have our kids be healthy and safe, live a good full life, the whole thing that we all want, right?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
So if we can kind of focus back on that, and that's always the overarching, especially in the food industry, I see that a lot. People go back to, we're just trying to create healthy, safe food that people are going to want to eat. That's an easy mantra, right? We all get behind that. I can definitely get behind safe food.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
You know, we definitely could say something like in our industry, we just want people to be resilient. Well, that doesn't really ring to a lot of people because resiliency actually is an action. It's very hard to get to be resilient. It is. You have to go through something to become resilient. Right. So it's a tough word in itself.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
And I think the food industry understands that because they've already been through some stuff. You know, they go through stuff all the time. I think, again, moving forward, I think that culture piece is really key, George.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
So I'm really glad that we talked about this today, because if we don't figure out how to work with that and how to be better, even in our own industry, how can we serve others effectively, ultimately? Yeah. Thanks for being here, George. Like, this has been great. I love rifting with you anyway, so I'm glad we finally got it on air because it's always been fun. Absolutely.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Is there anything coming up that I can help promote here for you? Anyone tell the listeners.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Thanks, George, for being here.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Bites and Bites podcast. Remember to like, comment, and share this episode. Thank you to our guest, George, for his enlightening discussion on the intersections of agriculture and cybersecurity.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
If you enjoy listening to George, please check out his podcast, Bare Knuckles Brass Tacks, which drops weekly. The link will be in the show notes. Also, remember to vote for the show for the Women in Podcasting Awards. The link is also in the show notes.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Like what's the favorite right now in the house with the tacos since that seems to be the item your children go towards?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
As always, stay safe, stay curious, and we'll see you on the next one. Bye for now.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
glad that you had a good experience. I had a similar one in Mexico City. I was on a food street tour, actually, and it was the best thing I could have done for my palate. I did the same thing when I've traveled anywhere, getting used to the textures and the flavors so I don't, you know, make a fool out of myself at a table or couldn't navigate chopsticks or something like that.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
This episode was recorded before the recent updates on the avian flu and listeria outbreak linked to deli meat incidents. I wish to extend my thoughts to those affected and be sensitive to everyone working through these crises. Thank you so much. I hope you enjoy my conversation with George. Let's get started.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
But I remember thinking authentic Mexican food, and I mean authentic, like not what we do to it here in the States, of course, is some of the most amazing food I've ever had, hands down. And there's some stuff I think about daily to this day, actually.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Exactly. And some of the things I love the most about suit adventures outside of your own comfort zone is when you don't speak the language or you don't speak language well, or you can understand a little bit of it. Situational awareness kicks in usually. And you're kind of having to guess what's on the menu.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
And then you end up with this like plethora of amazing food that you've never thought of because you couldn't really read the menu. Don't get me wrong. It's like an adventure. I did something like that in Mexico City. Did not end up with crickets. I thought we were going to. I'm glad we didn't. I think I would have been a little weirded out by it. I'm just not a bug eater.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Like, that's not my thing. But everything that we had was amazing. And nobody in front of us spoke any English. Nobody around us spoke any English. They didn't have English menus. And you just point. And like, That looks good. You try to use Google Translate, but it's kind of, it's cheesy. You don't really want to do that. You just kind of go with your gut instinct on it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
So the same thing when I was in Japan, same thing when I was in Malaysia, like all these places, I just was like, that looks great. Do that. Or if it's visually in front of you, that looks amazing. I don't know what it is.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
I think my favorite interaction with that was I was actually standing in a train station in Shinagawa in Tokyo. Granted, English is a little more prevalent in Tokyo. And the sushi chef did not speak English. And he was very irritated with me, clearly, because I wasn't moving it along. It's a fast moment there. And I was my last time being in Tokyo when I knew it was.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
So I was sort of like laid back. a little bit more than I probably should have been. You know, taking my time ordering and not getting too excited. They didn't have any scallops, so I was kind of sad about that, but I pointed at, you know, I want the fatty salmon. And he was like, and he pointed at the wasabi. This is what we do. We just point at things.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
He pointed at the wasabi, and I made the little teeny moment with my hands. Oh, no, no, no. This man dumped it all on me.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
It's finally happening. I have George K. We'll get into who George K. is in a second. I want you to start with your favorite food and your favorite food memory, because it's literally my favorite question I ask everybody.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
I was, every orifice was just steaming. But I remember thinking, and he giggled. You could tell that he was amused by what he did. And I was amused. But I also was amused because I was, you know.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Yeah. Yeah, but it gave me an opportunity to like cry out that I was leaving and I was really sad. And nobody would question it because I just had a really strong wasabi moment. Those are the kind of cultural things that I love. Or if someone wants to practice their English while they're serving you a drink or, you know, those kind of things and they want to know all these things.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
And it's awesome. I love that connection and food and drinks are such a vehicle for that moment. And this is why I think that it's so important to protect it and why we need to continue as cybersecurity professionals to focus on that human factor of why we're doing it. It's not just because it's data, it's about human lives.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
So before we jump all onto that, George, I will let you introduce yourself. I will say, everyone, that it's because of George that you have this podcast, because if it wasn't for his encouragement and sitting down and having lunch one day, thinking of food, that this podcast wouldn't have been born. So, take it away, George.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Get the percentage. I'll try to find the statistic and throw it into the show notes. But majority of soy, corn. Corn. Are all for animals. And it's kind of on a whole other side and not to get onto some kind of soapbox. It's kind of crazy to think about that we do that, though. Because naturally, I don't think pigs and cows and chickens and other things like that, beef, eat soy and corn. Yeah.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
We kind of find that to be a strange thing. We're feeding animals things that they're not normally eating, but we don't have enough grassland or forage land for them anymore because of the way we live on this planet.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
Correct. That would be crazy if they did. I mean, then you'd have an army.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
The Anthropology of Cybersecurity with George Kamide | Exploring the Intersection of Tech, Culture, and Food Systems
I've never played with any of this information. I feel like somebody is probably going to make a meme off of that right there. Like just the army of like animals coming at us.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
There's so many factors here that are so interconnected. I'm sure we could spend the entire time here just talking about that, which would not be a waste of time either. But there's just so many nuances on nuances here that it really is a struggle.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
For me, realizing that the conflict specifically impacting food security in countries that were thousands of miles away was really important because it shows how interconnected we really are in our systems. And how we don't realize that because we take it for granted because we don't have to think about it, right? We go to the grocery store, we pick up our food. We don't see how it got there.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
They do not need to be the same thing.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
We don't see what went into making it safe for us or any of the aspects behind the scenes. We just pick up our loaf of bread. And I think we take that for granted a lot, especially I'll say in the US, because we don't have to worry.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
The fact that now we have this conflict and I'm sure many other conflicts that are going around the world right now that really are compounding people's ability just to go buy a loaf of bread.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Well said, and I think everybody understands, especially in the U.S., what the devastation of hurricanes and earthquakes and even fires, we can even go that far, and how the preparedness of the community is what has made those particular disasters better or worse. A lot of people don't think about food. It's an afterthought. They think about water and power.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
They don't think about, oh, how am I going to eat until you can't eat or there is no food. That's when you start thinking about it. And it's really scary to me that even as a developed country, that we haven't really had that conversation on a community level. I mean, when was the last time you were sitting in your town or city and thought, are they prepared for a famine?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
I don't think that's something that we even think about. It's not top of mind, if you will. but it's so interconnected to everything else. And if one bit of the system fails, it could topple over the rest of it. We'll be right back after a short break. Thank you for being here and listening to the show.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
It would be really awesome if you would like, comment and share with your friends, family and coworkers. It really helps others find the show. It really does mean a lot too. Thank you. Also, don't forget to check out the new merch store on the website where you can find aprons, t-shirts, hats, sweatshirts. Link is in the show notes. And also, guess what?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
The Bites and Bites podcast is now on TikTok. As a reminder, this episode is part one of a special two-part series in collaboration with Crisis Lab Podcast. We're uncovering the critical issues surrounding food security and how global crises impact our food supply chains.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Stay tuned for part two, which will be released on the Crisis Lab Podcast, where we'll discuss practical steps you can take to build resilient food systems and the role of cybersecurity in protecting those food systems. That episode will be airing on July 14th, 2024. A link will be provided in the show notes. Now back to my conversation with Kyle.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
That's something that I really want the listeners to hear is how interconnected we are. And a lot of us who are listening are also cybersecurity and technology. We, by nature, should understand system thinking because if you affect something on one end of a system, it's going to cause another problem on the other.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Where you can't just make changes in isolation, you have to go through change management and have a conversation with others. And everybody knows you don't make changes in production. You do it in a test environment. That kind of thing is all interconnected. You don't want to mess it up. The same goes for our actual human systems.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
how we work and how we live in the world this is why kyle i'm really excited for you to be here because not only are we going to talking about food security in general but the fact that it's the systems thinking that's so key and critical to solving some of these problems and also helping people be resilient through these problems which is ultimately the goal a cyber attack is is eminent at all times but being resilient being able to stay resilient through that moment is what's the most important part not if it's going to happen it's going to happen and saying that
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
I really want to talk about how the technological advancements in both supply chain, agriculture, everything in that regard, how are they helping these threats to food insecurity?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
That's right. It really is. That's well said. And I think that technology is supposed to help solve a problem, right? Whether it's you need more yield or you want to do precision farming or you want to be more sustainable, you're going to need tech for that. But if it is working for you and there's nothing wrong, then why add to that problem?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Why introduce a new attack vector into your life, if you will? I do think more technology will be introduced to these places, though, over time, of course.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
I do think that there are some things that farmers will gravitate towards once they trust the process of it, like drones, for example, for monitoring pests or various other types of activities, IoT fire sensors and soil erosion sensors, those kind of things I could see being added without much fuss. But the problem becomes is,
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
How do you teach a farmer to be a cybersecurity expert and information technology expert? They're not going to do that. That's not right. That's not for them to know either. So there needs to be better systems put into place that help them stay resilient without adding more problem to their life.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
That's something that I often struggle with, especially having conversations with various practitioners and people in the industry is everybody wants to throw tech at it. And I don't always think that's the answer either, Kyle.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
I think that we need to take a long look at the ramifications of throwing tech at certain environments that it doesn't need to be there necessarily, or come up with a better plan of attack, actually have a strategy. And what does the next 10 years look like? Are we going to need this type of support? Is it common practice? Is it trusted in the area? Is it well-documented?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Have people done peer-reviewed studies on it? Those kinds of things, rather than I just want the new shiny and I want to spend so much money when we all know that parts of agriculture are very touch and go in terms of finances. So I think something like the tractors will probably be more technology as a start in some of these places first since
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
I'm assuming at some point they're going to just not make analog tractors anymore and it will all be some type of computer situation, just like cars of past to present. I think that's going to be interesting, especially since the whole situation with John Deere a couple of years back and how farmers had to hack their own tractors, which I still think is incredible.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Thank God they don't have to do that anymore.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
I mean, you can't really go wrong with a good margarita pizza, I suppose.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Yeah, my houseplants and I have an interesting relationship for sure. Absolutely. The tribal knowledge is so important. And I'm sure a lot of people will hear this, especially in OT and ICS security. We all know that the people that have been in those facilities for 30, 40 years are your most critical assets, ultimately, because they're the ones carrying the most knowledge.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Same goes true with the generation of farming families that are now dwindling, unfortunately. But you're right. Technology will actually make a difference when it comes to that vertical farming. It's all run on IoT. I think that the greenhouse companies are doing quite well. I know that the indoor ag space is becoming quite large, especially in the U.S.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
And it's also solving some other problems like E. coli contamination runoff isn't a problem in a greenhouse setting, right? Because there's no cattle there or any other livestock that could contaminate the said lettuce. It's also, like you said, making it local. So transportation takes less time. There's less, there's just less faff, right? It's easy to get things around.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
And also, I think it's a skill that can be taught on an intern basis as well. You can have college students working. I mean, it solves some problems, right? It solves a lot of problems. Why aren't we doing this? Kyle, we need to start a movement right now.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
I mean, and they can do it with like shipping containers, which just basically rot. I think anything you can do with a shipping container is pretty cool. Make a house, make a vertical garden, anything like that.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
It's just amazing that people have that ingenious way of looking at the world around them to see something instead of just trash or just waste to make it something that's functional and sometimes quite pretty. But yeah, definitely.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Yeah, at least for like the fruits and vegetable aspect. But I mean, I'm sure they're not going to want to slaughter their own cows and things like that. I mean, that could be very detrimental to people, I suppose. But I like that idea because it teaches responsibility and appreciation for the food that you get and you have, right? It almost empowers people to care. And it's a great skill, right?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
If you know how to grow carrots and tomatoes, that helps. You can grow this on your balcony in a city, you know, or anywhere else. I used to do that. I mean, I grow herbs inside my house. I suppose that's a bit of vertical farming in itself. And it definitely is biohacking, I guess. But I think the younger generations kind of recognize this, Kyle.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
I think that they do see that there needs to be more. But the problem is, is that the way our systems are set up, it's not set up to do that just yet. And this could be, I mean, if anybody wants to do this, please let us know. Or if you know if it's happening, please let us know. Because I think that that is such a brilliant idea and it empowers people.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
And that empowerment in itself can help with resilience because it's not such a daunting task and doom and gloom. This is a positive moment. I think we need more of those types of wins moving forward, especially as we're having this change in labor force. In terms of technology and labor force, I've had a couple of conversations with some people in larger farms, do IT and cybersecurity.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
And they were saying that they're hoping that AI will actually come in and help with some of their labor shortage issues because they can offset some of. that to AI rather than having to hire different people. And there's restrictions because of language, displacement of people, because obviously we all know that a lot of our crops in the United States, as an example, are not picked by Americans.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
They are outsourced. But we have this labor shortage now. because of other immigration restrictions and things of such. And I don't want to get into the politics of that, obviously, but they are hoping that AI is going to help drive that. Are you seeing that anywhere else in the world, that AI is potentially an answer for some of the food insecurity?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Hey, listeners, just a quick break to tell you about something special from our friends at Crisis Lab. If you're in crisis and emergency management or interested in resilience, you know how crucial it can be to stay ahead of the curve.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
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Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
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Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Yeah, and I think that's actually something that I think a lot about when it comes around. The food industry is intentional sabotage, whether it's a nation state or just someone who's just out for whatever. That's the part that scares me the most because ultimately cybersecurity we deal with is social engineering.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
That's our primary focus, whether it's done via computer with ransomware or different viruses or whatever. It's ultimately just social engineering. And that's something I think we've lost focus on because we focus too heavily on the technology aspect. We are not focusing on people process behavior. That's a misbeat, in my opinion.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
And we really need to start going back to our roots in that regard, where we need to think in the way that an attacker would, whether that's. I'm going to take an anchor in a simple capacity and drag it on the bottom of the sea floor and pull up this cable. Let's be real.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Like that seems like that's something somebody should have done a risk analysis on and the likelihood and the impact of it, if that would actually happen. And I'm not downplaying that situation at all. It does seem like something that would have been part of that assessment. And going beyond that with food, that risk factor is how we deal with being resilient.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
So it was just the nostalgia of the place. That's the favorite memory.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
If we don't know the risks and the impact potentially that we could be looking at, how do we create a resilience culture, let alone a resilience plan for these types of situations? Whether it's somebody comes in and sprays the crops with something they shouldn't, or it was a mistake and it ends up being more toxic.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
or somebody sprayed the seeds and we didn't know, or somebody did something to the production line that's making your favorite pastry. All these things is really concerning. The more we mass produce, the larger we grow, the more I feel like at times we lose sight of what's the most important part. And I think that at times we need to go back to that.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
We need to start thinking the way these people do in order to keep and stay ahead in resilience or at least stay resilient.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
We also need to use a bit of imagination, Kyle. I think we have to stop thinking the best in others and goodness of others will prevail. We have to start thinking a little bit differently. It doesn't mean that we're a bad person. It doesn't mean that we're thinking the worst about people, but
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
If you are a risk professional in any regard, whether it's security or beyond, you have to start thinking in this way because you're exploitable, you know, and how could that be exploited? And I think if everyone had that type of mentality, it would really help with risk-based solutions to get to resilience. And you're right.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
I mean, nobody would have thought that, you know, they would be off the coast of Florida right now. However, I bet somebody thought of it though, Kyle, but they probably were viewed as some crazy conspirators and they were dismissed because that was just outlandish Maybe we need to start having more intelligent, logical, outlandish, imaginative conversations to help plan for risk.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
I mean, we probably do have a plan for like a alien's land, right? Like that seems rather outlandish, but I'm sure we have a plan. Maybe we need to have that kind of conversation. And with the batteries, I've actually, I completely hear you.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
The batteries are really scary too because on a climate aspect, and here's my environmental management hat coming on, they're actually thinking about starting to harvest these kind of like rocks at the bottom of the ocean. It's going to destroy entire ecosystems if they do it. And it's not going to solve the problem either because we still have this dependency on these particular minerals. But
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Maybe if we start looking at other types of minerals and different ways to create batteries, maybe that's the kind of the route we need to go, kind of like the sodium ion batteries they've been testing in various countries. Maybe that's something that will be helpful. And they'll also hopefully be better for the environment, maybe be cheaper and be easier to charge. I mean, those kind of things.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
I don't know enough about that to be able to comment on it, but I like that we're at least trying different things. Car powered by salt sounds really interesting, for sure.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Oh, for sure. And also they have a higher aptitude for learning, right? Because they are learning different types of diverse skills across the board. I think that that would be brilliant. The fact that you could understand how to set up solar or you understand how to grow your own food. It's like back in the day, having to take home ec classes, right? Learning how to cook in an
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Thanks for that, Kyle. Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
early age is important. It serves you as an adult. Most people can cook on some level. They can boil water or they can fry an egg, you know, that kind of thing. It's important skills. I wish they taught us more about, you know, balancing a checkbook and other things that we were going to need, like doing taxes. That would have been nice. Like these stuff. Yeah.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
But also, I'm sure you remember, too, we had like wood shop and metal shop and we learned how to like make a bird feeder and the little box derby cars and things like that. That kind of stuff actually stayed with me. So I'm not afraid to go near that equipment or I have an understanding of it. I still don't like angles or math. It's OK. Who does?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
But those kind of skills are super important, you know, going into the workforce. As we're wrapping up, Kyle, I kind of, we've had like, this is a heavy conversation. There's so much to unpack. What can we do as technology professionals, food safety professionals, food defense people, all of these types of roles, what can we do to help? Is there anything we can do?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Welcome to another episode of the Bites and Bites podcast, where we explore the intersection of technology, cybersecurity, and beyond in the food industry. I'm your host, Kristen DeMoranville. In today's episode, we're kicking off part one of a two-part series that takes a different approach from our usual discussions with food industry experts. Our guest is Kyle King.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Yeah, I think planning ahead is key. The more you can know and more you can strategize, the better off you're going to be. Rather than the oh shit moment, something happened and now I have to react. Most people would prefer to be the first and not the latter. In terms of us as professionals, we are attached to this in some way. We're part of this system.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Everything you just mentioned, Kyle, we handle data. We are part of some of these systems that are either built or working on for early warnings. Part of our private sector, we're part of government. Some of us could be working directly with stakeholders. And I think what I love about what you said over this whole episode is I kept thinking in my head that this is such a boil the ocean situation.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
We keep talking about all these problems and all these things going on. And how do we stay resilient? But that's such an overarching goal, right? That's the biggest goal. But we really need to sit down and just make that cup of tea rather than just keep trying to boil the ocean because we'll never make it if we are trying to do that. It's too big. It's too daunting.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
But if you said it best, we go back to the community and look at it for a community aspect. That's making your cup of tea because that takes it down from big earth-shattering situation to, okay, I can handle like a hundred miles worth of situation rather than thousands of miles and beyond. So thank you for that because that was kind of like the hope moment.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
That really put in perspective for me that if you can break down your thinking, the systems thinking down to the smallest components would be that community aspect.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Well, thanks so much for your time, Kyle. We'll have all the information in the show notes and some of the articles that he was mentioning and some of the various topics. Also, there'll be some links to Crisis Lab if you want to learn more about that, which I highly recommend. Anything you want to say before you leave, Kyle?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Great. Thanks so much, Kyle. Really appreciate you being here.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Bites and Bites podcast. A huge thanks to Kyle for joining us and sharing his wisdom and valuable insight. Remember, this episode is part of a two-part series in collaboration with his podcast, Crisis Lab Podcast. That episode will be released on Crisis Lab Podcast on July 14th, 2024.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
In that episode, Kyle and I will discuss practical steps that you can take to safeguard your food supply and importance of community level action and how to build resilience. Don't miss it. Remember to check out the new merch store on the website and also follow us on TikTok. Don't forget to like, comment, follow, and share this episode. Stay safe, stay curious, and we'll see you on the next one.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Well, I think you made it less complicated because I'm sitting here going, whoa, wait, that's a lot. That's amazing. And the fact that you've gotten to travel the world and help people through crisis is, it's really admirable. So thank you for that work because we need it. We need more of it as well. Thank you. Appreciate that.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
So can you give me like a little bit of, I guess, day to day, like how does that work for you? Because people don't, sorry, I'm generalizing, forgive me listeners, but I think generally speaking, people don't understand what it means to deal with crisis management in these types of situations.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
So could you give us like a little snapshot just so people have a little bit more of a picture to go with?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
He brings a unique perspective to the show. Unlike our typical guests who are experts in the food industry, technology, and cybersecurity sectors, Kyle specializes in emergency and crisis management on an international scale. In this episode, we will discuss large themes such as food insecurity, crisis management, resiliency, and keeping food safe for distribution in times of crisis and beyond.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Thank you for that. That's really enlightening. I think it's so important that people start to understand how these crises are going to be compounded by the amount of extra technology that's around them and the different types of human aspects in these situations.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Because they're obviously emotionally heightened a lot of times because you're dealing with displacement and migration and food and water. And that is very emotionally tied into being a human being because it's something that we need to survive. So I'm sure being level-headed really comes in quite handy at times. It can certainly help, yeah. Well, yeah.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
I mean, if you're dealing with crisis, you have to keep cool, right? You can't be all stressed out and flailing like an inflatable tube man, which is the same in cybersecurity. We can't be running around like a chicken with their head cut off. We have to be able to cut through the noise to get to the root of the problem, if you will. So I completely get that type of aspect.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
And I feel the same way about policy. You have to have a common language in order to get people at the table. Because if you're not speaking the same way, then... You're speaking in 12 different ways and that's not going to help anything.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
Part of the reason why I'm such an advocate for different policies and regulations because they create common ground and that's what we need to be able to move forward. People are probably like, well, why is Kyle on your show, Kristen? What's going on? Well, actually, it's because we're going to talk about food insecurity and as it relates to crisis management and beyond.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
And I want you to define food insecurity for us, Kyle, because I think people have a misunderstanding of what that is. And I would love you to give your perspective on that.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
This conversation sets the stage for part two, which will air on Kyle's podcast, Crisis Lab Podcast. In that episode, Kyle and I will discuss practical steps that communities can take to be more resilient in the face of food supply challenges and technology disruptions. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Let's get started. Kyle, thanks for being here.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
That is so impactful to think about. I mean, if you just take it for what you just said, people are literally leaving whole nations because they can't grow food. That is, I mean, that is so intense to think about and so unnecessary. That doesn't seem like a problem we should be having.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
right that should be solvable that's really i mean that really does grab you my thoughts around this especially since the audience consists of a lot of food protection people and cyber security individuals both in ot and ics and systems thinkers and things like that could you you've already mentioned it the the russian ukraine conflict but what specifically is impacting food security is it just that region or is there other parts of the globe that are really impacted by that
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
I'm really excited to have you on the podcast. And I'm really excited to hear a lot about your background and things you're working on and how that impacts with technology and cybersecurity and food and all the good things that we love talking about here. I'm just going to jump straight into it before your intro. Let's talk about your favorite food and your favorite food memory.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Security and Crisis Management with Kyle King
And it would also put a lot of pressure on the farmers of these various other countries that surround the conflict area to produce more. Their yields have to be higher. And I would assume that would drive costs because we're having fertilizer issues and probably seed issues and a bunch of other things. Are you seeing that as well?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Thank you.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And I'm about to use some buzzy terms, so everybody just brace. But we need to move away from being in recovery mode all the time to being resilient, especially in the food industry. And that's what I constantly go in and talk about. You're going to get hit with an attack. I don't want to hear that you're not because you are. Are you prepared? And the response back is, I don't know.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
that's bad let's get on it you know like that's let's just not even think about it i actually as an owner of a software company i actually got hit with a brute force attack a couple weeks ago and instead of freaking out we quickly triaged and everything was fine we didn't have any issues no breaches happened nothing like that but i actually afterwards i had this cackle laugh for like five minutes with like tears because i was like we're legit we got hit
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
because you got to turn it around to be like a positive in a way like oh yeah we're cool enough to be hit like right what did what did we do yeah sweet you know whatever we're doing is must be working our branding keep it going because we're doing well And I think if people started looking at it from that almost comical mindset, there might be the laser to roll through it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
But I am I am very worried about our food supply chain. And I'm not just speaking about the United States. I'm speaking globally because it impacts globally. It's not just here.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
So you can check us out. Also, we're kind of doing a joint episode here. Welcome to my listeners as well. But what I actually do, I am the CEO of Anson Sage, which is a cybersecurity firm that's focused on the food and ag industry, mainly risk management, OT related assessments, those kinds of things, trainings, lots of trainings.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
There isn't. And there's no real collaboration there. It's getting better. I shouldn't, I'm sorry. I shouldn't say that because a lot of the OT products want to work together in some type of a collaborative environment, but there's still like, you know, this is mine. That's yours kind of thing, which is fine. And whatever, I get it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
But there's no, how is an end user supposed to navigate all these products when they're already working on slim margins and whatnot? Because you know, this being in the utilities, there's no money, like money's allocated out. It's forecasted to hell. Right. The food industry is the same way. And everybody runs on slim margins and slim production because they want to get things moving.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And they call it efficiency. They bring in just product enough that they have to get in and then push it out. It's never anymore. So there's no spoilage or overflow. The water industry actually is learning how to feed itself, as I say, where they're selling their gray water to data centers that are close by to them. Brilliant, brilliant strategy, right?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
But that now means that OT is in data centers even more than it was before. Yeah. Has anybody thought about that? Because your cloud needs OT. Like, hello. It's pretty obvious. Right. And the water guys need more and more love because they don't get any either.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And I will advocate for them until I turn blue in the face as well, because we need water for so much stuff in the food and ag industry, obviously. And we already have droughts everywhere. So there's that. moment as well. Glaciers are melting.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
It's true. And I have a similar situation. My dad was a fireman for 45 years and that was all industrial equipment and DLCs and various other things. And he never really made the connection until I explained what I did. And then he kind of was like, huh, so you're like a chip off the block kid, aren't you? Like, this is like a continual theme.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I keep writing lots of trainings on what it means to be a cybersecurity professional in the food industry and how to be a better food professional with cybersecurity knowledge. So And then the other thing I am, I'm also CEO of Anzen OT, which is a OT resilience intelligence management platform.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I said, yeah, civil service clearly runs with the family, dad. I mean, exactly. That's really kind of what we're doing is social service. But yeah, no, absolutely. The more we added tech into these environments, and I mean tech by like internet ready, IoT, that kind of stuff. The more we turned all these legacy devices onto the internet, they were like, whoa, what is this?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I don't know if I like this space. I might cause a problem now. It's kind of like you gave your grandparents like a cell phone.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
or smartphone and they were like what is this and all of a sudden they started falling for all those scams it's kind of the way legacy tech works you know it's sort of just like oh hey you're my friend come on in i don't know you like and the problem is we didn't put any car rails around that at the beginning and now we're still kind of digging out and it's so funny because you go around the world and it's the same everywhere yeah it's no i mean that's that's the united front for us like it's it's really quite brilliant in that regard i thought i was going to deal with it less in certain countries than i did in others and it's the same all around
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Right. Right.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
you have here's the number it's about 150 or something like that right find them all like a scavenger hunt right yeah i think that'd be cool so if somebody does it let us know because we totally want to participate and probably dominate it and win it but i just act how i used to do it too when i'd be sitting around with people who didn't understand i said well where we are right now i can count at least six devices that are close to us that run that type of equipment and they're like well
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I don't understand. I said that elevator, that alone, like, you know, that kind of thing. And it's, it's so interesting watching people realize, oh, well, I've worked with that kind of equipment before. Well, you've been an OT then. Like that's, I'm not saying you are an OT person, but you have worked in it before.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I actually jumped into OT at a bakery company and I didn't even make the connection. I was doing OT because I was doing IT. We didn't have an OT department. We were the OT department. But I didn't know all the really cool technology names and bells and whistles and things. I just was like, yeah, the thing that goes over there and doesn't kill anybody. Like that's all I recognized it as.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And realizing as I moved through my career, I was like, oh, I've been an OT for a while. Yeah. Okay. Like, that's fine. But I enjoy it because we're protecting people. It's not just about the data because data is sexy. Don't get me wrong. It's like, you know, the new gold and we all love it because it's cool and gives us good things we can look at.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
But the idea to be able to sit at the end of the day and realize that you helped save someone's life and kept them to go home to their family. Like, that's amazing. Like, that feels really good. Really, really good.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And I want to continue to do that, especially when it comes to food, because we're like a breath away from a foodborne illness because we don't understand food security around the tech that's in these environments. And we just keep adding more stuff because digitalization is a huge thing in the industry. Sure. They've been automating forever.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Risk intelligence really features different things like cyber PHA assessment, scenario building, playbooks, lots of really cool intelligence things behind it. It is new on the market. We are a new startup. So come check us out there. I'm happy to talk about that all day long as well.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
You know, if you think about the food industry as a whole, how it's come up, you know, we originally were the ones plowing the field and then we attached the cattle, horse, and then we moved to the tractor and dah, dah, dah, dah. The food industry has been innovating forever. They're great innovators. R&D is fantastic. I mean, we have lab grown meat now. Hello.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Like these are things that are like kind of crazy. We can 3D print a salmon. It'll be pro team, but we can do it. So for me, why aren't we attaching cybersecurity to technology more? And I don't want to get into the whole product security conversation because that's a whole different rabbit hole. And I blessings upon the people who do that work.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
But why aren't we having more of that conversation inside of these environments? It's because cyber needs a rebrand for OT. We literally cannot explain what we do very well. And I think if we could, we'd probably win more hearts and minds for that people process us for sure.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Yeah, no, exactly. And I think we have to think beyond it inside of the OT environment. So I'll give an example, right? You have an allergen issue inside of a factory. So you have a peanut area and a non-peanut area. You have a disgruntled employee that goes from the peanut area to the non-peanut area. Whose problem is that? Right. Sure. Food safety, food defense. Absolutely.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
You get that problem. But it's also cybersecurity's problem because with the industry that we work in, food and ag, cyber physical is still cybersecurity to me. Physical security is still cybersecurity to me. That access control should have been managed better, whether it would have been biometrics, if you could do that without gloves or those kind of things, eye scans, badge readers, that's cyber.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And IT, which also could be connected to OT depending on your access level control where you are. Cameras. There should have been cameras. There wasn't.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I mean, the only reason they found out is because they did some testing on the other end from quality and they realized, oh, whoops, we have, you know, peanuts in our cookie that we shouldn't have that go out to this major retailer, which they lost that retailer because of that incident. They lost it. They lost face. It was a mess. It was a total brand incident, total nightmare.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
That to me is something that cybersecurity and OT should have been involved in. It shouldn't have happened in the first place because they should have set up parameters to get around that, you know, not to ever happen. And then on top of it, we should have had that conversation. We should have been part of that conversation.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
That bothers me a lot that we don't think that far because that's a resilience piece. Because people are like, oh, well, that's not an adversary. That's not a cyber attack. It's an insider threat. To me, describing this incident to a food defense professional, they literally said that's terrorism. They would class that as terrorism on their report.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And I went, wow, so that's like domestic terrorism? They're like, yeah. And I'm like, whoa. So now we have a whole other level of things I didn't understand at that time. And now looking back on it and thinking about the system as a whole, yeah, we have a stake in this. We have responsibility. Access control is our problem.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And I've had to define what a cyber physical system is multiple times recently. I thought it was self-explanatory. I'm not picking on people who don't know, but I literally have had four people in the last two weeks ask me exactly what that is. And I've been on air when it's happened. And I'm like, well, it's something that can get on the internet.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Like, I guess that's how the best way I would describe it to you. It's something that could be both physical and cyber related. So push a button, pull a lever, but you can also sit on your couch and push a button on your phone. And people are like, oh, cyber physical. Wouldn't that just be IOT? I'm like, not necessarily. So it's a...
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
We've got some we've got some branding term issues we need to deal with in order to make this more mainstream, even though it is mainstream because we all eat and we all work and around this a lot. And I don't I don't think it's us. I don't know. I don't know what it is.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
But we need kind of a rebrand in the OT side to be able to start communicating what we need in order to serve the companies and the people that we do. Because we can sit in a room all day long and geek out and get excited. We do every time we're at a conference together. Everybody's like, woo!
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I will say that OTICS conferences are my favorite, not because I'm biased because I'm in the niche, but we have a different conversation. It's personal. It's almost intimate because we understand the human factor here differently. And we look at it like that in a very severe way. And like you said, it's not sexy all the time. We have to wear more protective gear.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
It makes us look crazy all the time. I mean, you have hard hats behind you. I mean, I have had to wear multiple hairnets and like basically a shield and you have to like put yourself into a zip up like white suit and booties. Like it is not, you are not attractive. You look like a steak puff marshmallow. What went wrong? But I still love it.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Like, I can't imagine not working in this industry, right? Like, I can't imagine not being here. And the fact that I get to sit on podcasts like this and talk to people like you, it's just so much fun. I have such a great time here. Hey, listeners, we'll take a quick break, but don't go anywhere. Just a reminder to check out our website for all things Bites and Bites.
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Blog posts, additional content, and of course, our merch shop. If you're enjoying the show, hit that subscribe button to never miss an episode. I appreciate all of you who share the podcast with your network. It really does help the show grow and bring more great content to you. We'll be back in a few minutes with more of my conversation with Erin.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
If you go on a hospital, forget the hospital.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
It's a return on investment, right? You've got to value your property, if you will, or your IP or whatever you want to call it. If you don't, then running into this constant recovery mode that we're stuck in. On repeat, we are on repeat in recovery mode. We need to get out of recovery mode and start focusing on being resilient because it's going to happen.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
happen and there are cost-effective ways to get around it but again it's not the sexy stuff it's the people stuff right and nobody wants to talk about people because we're hard and maybe that's part of the reason why food and ag and even water kind of got left to the side is because people are hard and maybe that's part of it also the people who came to the table first were oil and gas sure i mean they have a stronger lobby but most of the countries that are out there also have their critical infrastructure and food and ag was put on there's the first bit so i don't
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And we have so many examples. And I know I don't want to be heavy like nation state poo-poo here, but here we are. We already have examples of how this is happening. Destabilize a country. They will do that through electricity and food. Because they want you to freeze to death in the winter and they want you to starve. It's basic warfare, right? That scares me. We already have examples.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Ukraine is a great one. Not a great one for a good reason, but it's a great example of this for happening. And it's so frustrating to me that we still haven't realized this. I have a good friend of mine who is a agricultural futurist. He's a strategist. He does focus on cybersecurity as well. And he asked me, deadpan one day, have I ever starved? Or how was the longest I went without food?
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I'm like, I don't know, 48 hours, maybe because of a flight situation or something like that. And he goes, you know, he's like, I tried an experiment for 10 days. And he's like, I didn't make it that far. He goes, it made me realize how many hours or days would it take you to commit a crime? You had to feed your family and there was no food. Yeah.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And I thought, I don't know, probably some people will make a couple hours. He goes, if he said the average is something like eight hours. And I was like, that's chaos. That's chaos in the street, literally. And everybody would feel it the same way. I can't imagine specifically the United States being in that type of chaos. The amount of guns we have in this country, for example.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I just think that that is, this would be apocalyptic, right? We haven't completely focused dead on to how we're going to deal with the supply chain. Yikes. And also we're growing so much food for animals rather than human consumption. And I'm not saying that's bad because we still have to feed animals.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
No, I mean, look how the other disasters that have happened, whether it's the train accident or Flint, Michigan. Yep. They still have fallout because priorities shift. This is why it's so important for OT to continually beat the drum of this is a problem. This is where it needs to be fixed. If you aren't willing to fix it, you now have to accept the risk that this could potentially happen.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And by the way, I'm not going to turn around and tell you I told you so. I'm just going to hear your report so you know. Sure. And I'm here if you need me kind of thing. Like, that's it. It's all we can do. But the fact that we have to sit on this type of knowledge all the time and go to sleep at night gets a little frustrating sometimes.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And this is why I think as a community in OT, the fact that we all support each other so well and kind of uplift and kind of have that therapy moment, if I even want to use that term.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
um when we're together is so important because i have sat there and listened to tales and i know you have too of just stuff that's going on and obviously that we're being very respectful we don't talk about where it's happening or what's going on to have someone tell me that story and then you could see the weight lift off of them but now it's on you because you now know but like but the fact that like we can come together as a community like that i just wish the rest of the cyber community would do that right let's rally behind each other instead of just being jerks
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
That would be great. And like I said, I adore this community in general. And I love that we fit so well into the companies and the places that we serve because we're just as geeky as they are for what they do. And like I said, we all love to eat, so it should be a no-brainer there.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I realize that all of us have different relationships with food based on your body and different things in your life, but we all do like to eat and we identify with food from where we're from.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
It's part of a cultural experience. We celebrate with cake. We, we say goodbye with cake, right? Cake is kind of the thing. We also have, you know, our favorite food memories. I talk about this on my podcast all the time. What's your favorite food and your favorite food memory? What is your favorite food and your favorite food memory? I,
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
It's also identifier, right? I mean, you say you're from Texas, so Tex-Mex. We all kind of know what that is in this country. People who live in other countries, because I do have a lot of listeners around the world, you probably had some variation of it in your own country because sometimes other countries do it better than us. Right.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
You know, and I've had some of the best curry of my life in Japan, not Japanese curry, but Indian curry because they do it really well. You know, the UK has its own version of curry. I think that it's interesting how much that blends, right? Because my fiance is British. We do curry on Friday nights, just an example. And curry wasn't something that I grew up with. I grew up in New England.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
We eat basic, boring food. No offense. If my mom's listening, I love you. But it's one of those things where I wasn't used to that. But now it's blended into my culture and my reality, right? And I love how food brings you together like that. Try something new. experience something different, but also have the nostalgia of things you remember. And I remember family cookouts too.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I mean, we did some weird things with salads and jello and I don't know what was going on. The 80s and the 90s were kind of complicated. Or with like mayonnaise and like, anyways.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Yeah. What was the Cool Whip?
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Too much. Yes. But these are brand names that we remember and they're still on the market. You can still get them and they're very clearly there. I mean, I don't know if I'd have it now, but I'm in a different state in my life. But, you know, it's fun for kids, you know.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I mean, you could probably cut open a freshwater fish and try to sashimi yourself into it, but I don't know about that. But I think it's also changed my perspective on food. When you have it in an authentic space, like I've had the privilege of going to Japan several times for work and I can't eat sushi in the States anymore. It's been erected for me. It's sort of like...
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I can't drink Guinness in the States. I really only want an Ireland or the UK. Like certain things have changed, but then you wait for that moment and you have it and you're like, yeah, it's like, and it becomes this whole awesome thing.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And if I think about the fact that we have all these issues globally, some of this food that we love and we talk about may not be available to the next generation or the generation after that, because we made bad choices. Yeah. you know? And also the idea that a cyber attack threatened people's lives through food. I can't really think of anything even worse than that. Right.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Honestly, it's an intimate attack. It's not just like, Oh, we're going after finances and dah, dah, dah, dah. No, no, no. That's to destroy people. Like that is, that keeps me up at night. Not every night, but there's some nights where like, Oh my God, like we're just like a hairpin from it sometimes. And it's,
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I don't want people to know that because I do have professional and friends that have lost children to E. coli poisoning and other different poisonings. And to tell a parent that their child is passing because of a burger that was contaminated, I mean, that makes me want to burn a house down. Like, that's not the answer. Not that I'm an arsonist because I'm a firefighter family.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
However, I will say it does make me very angry. And my anger doesn't matter, right? Because at the end of the day, I can only do what I can do. I want more people to understand that, especially in the OT space, we are doing things that safeguard lives on a whole other level than we expected to in our career. I certainly didn't think this was going to happen in my career. No. No.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
be like putting someone was like oh you're putting a cape on every day and like a superhero and i was like i don't know if i want to go that far but um if it helps you with the visualization of what i do that's fine but i don't want to put myself on that level this isn't a pedestal moment because we are a team like ot works as a team we really believe that we are in supporting each other
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
and be curious start asking questions like oh really is that ot like i wasn't going to actually ask me that like oh do you think that's ot i'm like yeah it's connected to the internet and whatever it's you know and i want that question be curious to the point of annoyance we don't mind we really don't and we want you to ask questions and we also want to ask questions that's what we do because we are constantly evaluating everything it was funny um when crowd strike hit as an example first of all my heart went out to anybody with it obviously but
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
but it didn't surprise neither myself or my fiance because both of us are in security. So in OT specifically, and it was just one of those like, you know, like this is not good. However, hopefully it's a lesson learned moment where you can't just have one thing holding the pillar up out of all of it. You need to actually have a better look at it.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And I hope that the people that were affected are taking a long hungered look of what they have in their environment. Now, what else could be critical and concerning?
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
It's crazy.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
It's people and process. Exactly. It really is. And actually, when the event happened, I messaged a good friend of mine, my best friend, actually, who works in a cheese company in Wisconsin. Insert laughter. But I asked, I said, I know you guys have CrowdStrike. Like, are you guys all right? He goes, well, actually, we happened overnight. We were able to pull some backup systems.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
We're able to roll it back. So it didn't affect our production. It just affected like a sanitation shift. Thankfully, the food industry was okay, which is good from the small sampling I did in my life. But I was glad to hear that they focused on resilience more than recovery. And I was like, yes, like we're getting there slowly. I don't care if it was five people I knew, but it was good.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
But as OT professionals, I can't even tell you when you read an article or have a conversation with somebody and they're like, oh yeah, it's about legacy systems that aren't patched. Is it? I mean, what? There are systems inside some of these factories that I've worked in, I know you've seen this too, that are probably like 40 years old, probably running a 98 second edition rocking it, right?
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Welcome to the Bites and Bites podcast. I'm your host, Kristen DeMoranville. And today we have something really awesome for you. I've teamed up with Aaron Crow, the Protect It All podcast host for this joint episode. Aaron and I chat about operational technology or OT, exploring how this critical area impacts industries from power to the food sector.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
98 second edition is a solid operating system if it's still up. I'm sorry. We all know you don't touch the dust. You don't touch anything on it because it's probably holding it up by a thread, which isn't good because you don't want that either. But there's ways around dealing with that that you don't have to operate.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
because upgrading a system like that is probably running one process that comes up once a quarter. It's gonna be millions of dollars. Probably the entire budget for a year for a company, right? The trick is, it's just making sure that you segment it and you know it exists. And making sure you watch it, like just watch it. It doesn't have to be anything more than that.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
It doesn't have to be the big fancy, everything around it and all these bells and whistles. I mean, if you could afford all that, that's cool. But do you need all that? Somebody once said on a podcast of mine, not that long back, do you actually need that tech? Are you okay without that tech? Specifically talking about farming.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And I was like, that's a really great question because you actually need it. If everything's working okay and you're okay and everything else around it is okay, why do you need to bring that in? And he goes, isn't that just another risk attack factor? And I was like, this is a brilliant conversation. I love this. Because it's true.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
That's how I think about it in a lot of these industrial environments. Do you actually need that? Do you need to be able to sit on your couch at night and monitor the temperature of your vat? I mean, if you do, tell me. That's fine. But do you really need it? Because you have a 24 by 7 plant. if it's got a practical reuse, that's brilliant. We'll do it.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
But if it's anything crazy, let's rethink it. I think we need to have that conversation more in the industry, especially in food. Cause we automate, we add all these really cool things and we do all this stuff and it's awesome. And now we have like Chick-fil-A mobile delivery units in Georgia. I don't know if you've seen them. They're kind of creepy. It's
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
it's literally like a little bike that drives up to your house and it's all automated and it's insane wow and and i'm just like i don't know i don't know if we've gone too far yeah like maybe we should roll that back
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Oh, okay.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
See, this is why you got to go back and talk to the people because...
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
they'll find the exploits for you you know and they'll tell you and he didn't do anything inherently wrong no it just it seems a little shady of course when you describe it you're like oh my goodness but um but at the same time like first of all good on them for exploiting a system like was causing a problem for them and also if you don't work with the environment you're in it's never going to work i remember i didn't this is something i learned on the job did you know that wi-fi signal does not go through bags of flour
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Yeah, it does. But I never made the connection because I've dealt with it before. And I found a maintenance manager who had no cybersecurity background or IT background on a scissor lift moving an access point because they couldn't get signal to pick the orders on their little forklifts.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
So he was up there and I just happened to be in the factory that day walking to the floor to get to the production area. And I caught him and we had a fight right on the floor, not physically, just, you know, verbal altercation of you're an idiot, you're an idiot kind of thing and back and forth.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And then my response was, why didn't you do a heat map scan for the Wi-Fi when you had a full warehouse? And he goes, because we're busy. And I was like, OK, then you need there needs to be some give and take here. Let's have a conversation. I got somebody in to do it right after I'm able to kind of like readjust a little bit. But oh, man, like exactly.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
People are going to do whatever they have to do to get either play dominoes or get orders picked.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
That's right. That's exactly what it is. Absolutely.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Great. Anytime. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of the Bites and Bites podcast, which is produced in collaboration with the Protect It All podcast. A big thank you to Aaron for sharing his experience and his humor. Don't forget to like, follow, and share this episode. Also, if you haven't already subscribed to Aaron's podcast, please ensure you do so.
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And remember, from August 1st to October 1st, vote for Bites and Bites podcast for the Women in Podcasting Awards. Link is in the bio and on the website. Also check out the show notes for links to today's conversation and hop on over to our website for even more details on today's episode and more. Stay safe, stay curious, and we'll see you on the next one. Bye for now.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I think the biggest difference between IT and OT, and I'm maybe a little bit more blunt than you in this regard, but I always say, well, IT is more about data, right? And OT is about safeguarding lives. It could kill somebody. IT is not necessarily going to kill anybody, right? Yeah. So it's a different mindset altogether where you're focused more on the people process side and the tech and OT.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
We want to make sure it just stays up and available. So, you know, someone doesn't fall into a vat, becomes part of the muffin mix, you know, or they don't get electrocuted or they don't drown or they don't do anything that's awful and horrible. And nobody ever wants to go through that. And IT isn't dealing with people's lives necessarily. Right. probably is a little crossover there somewhere.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
But generally speaking, when I worked in IT, I was never worried about people's lives. I was more worried about my own life and being assaulted by an end user because they were upset. That was really probably my biggest thing there, right? OT, I was worried about me getting like catching on fire, watching somebody else get caught on fire and all these other things happening around it.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And I go back to those analogies because I think that's how it works a lot. We have to just keep talking that way to find that connection, that relatability. Oh, convergence. I cannot stand that term. Like it's right up there with like air gapped and a few other terms that we say a lot because it's just, it's silly. Like we got to stop putting terms on everything because it's not helping.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
It's just becoming more of a problem where we just need to focus on we're trying to protect and safeguard lives along with making sure that all these services that we support stay up and running because we like running water. We like electricity. We like the food that's on our plates.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
We like that we can just go to the grocery store and buy whatever we want, whenever we want, because there's no seasons in a grocery store now, those kind of things. And that's why I love working in the industry, because I feel like I'm having an impact. I'm sure everybody in OT can say this, and I see us, is we feel like we have an impact on the greater good.
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Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And if you say greater good back, we're best friends, by the way. That's the response you do. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's how I feel about, especially the food industry, because it touches so many aspects. All the suppliers, the third parties, things you don't think about, the containers that food comes in. That has to be done in a food grade level in terms of manufacturing.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Whether you're a cybersecurity pro or a food professional or just curious about how these issues affect our daily lives, this episode has something for you. So grab a snack, enjoy your workout, plane ride or commute and get ready for an enlightening conversation. And hey, while you're here, don't forget to like, subscribe, and share this episode with your friends and colleagues.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
How we're interacting with the food, food safety aspects. all these different things. I just, it's like a jigsaw puzzle. I love it because it really expands your system thinking and you have to realize everything is in a holistic sphere.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And I think that's what we do as OT as well is we're like, Oh, if something goes wrong here, up here at like, you know, three o'clock is not going to be really messed up. If seven o'clock is messed up, obviously this is going to cause a problem with the whole is we all understand how production works because it's all the same, right? It doesn't matter what you do.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I mean, it's the same type of thing. Materials come in, they get mixed up and kicked out the other way, but that production, process in between the thing that's the most important and the biggest issue is the people in the process. Because technology is not going to cause the problem. It's people. And they'll circumvent everything we do to make sure it gets done because they don't care.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
They just want to get their job and go home, right? Right.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
End users are the best and the worst at the same time. They're the best line of defense and the worst. I once walked into a factory. I think it was a media factory. So made like DVDs and CDs and games for consoles and things like that, which still exists. Console games apparently still exist. I didn't realize they were still making them.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And their help desk that was on site actually had a sign that said, if you ask a dumb question, I will light you on fire. Yeah. I just, I died because I was like, wow, first of all, HR violations for days, but good for you. You set the pace of what's going to happen when someone walks in that room looking for help. So I can appreciate the end user comment.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
This is such a big question and I don't have the right answer. So I'm just going to kind of give you some train of thought on it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Agriculture and the food industry as a whole wasn't added to the critical infrastructure number for CISA or Homeland Security until 2020. That wasn't that long ago. You know, that is disturbing, first of all. I think it's a kind of a twofold issue where people think that the food industry doesn't have any money, which is hysterical because, I mean, Mars just bought part of Kellogg's today. Right.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
As of today. And that was a $300 million deal, I believe. Don't quote me. Sure. But it was something ridiculous. So tell me again, there's no money in the food industry. Right. Also, I believe the largest payout for ransomware to date that we're aware of, and I say that loosely because we don't know at all, was the food industry. Right. So there's money. So I don't buy that really very well.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
If you haven't already, check out our website for more content, including this episode, blogs, and the merch shop. We've got some really awesome t-shirts, hats, aprons, and even a few other surprises. Let's get to it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I think the actual reason is because nobody's got a handle on what the actual supply chain for food looks like. Right. And that was shown very clearly when the ransomware for JBS hit the meat company. Right. Because it was awful and still is.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I was actually just speaking to some people from the cattle industry last week, and they were expressing their frustration of just how difficult it is to manage their supply chain. So what if a supplier gets hit like JBS? How do the grocers purchase any meat? They can't purchase it from them. So where do they go? Is there a backup plan?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
You know, there's all these questions that I went even further and said, what happens with JBS? Because the cattle couldn't get slaughtered in time. So then you've got cattle that's standing in trailers or holding pens. You can't retract them to the farm because they don't have feed or space for them probably by then because they've already rotated. There's all these.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
So who does the burden fall onto? The rancher? Oh, God, I hope not, you know? Right. Does it fall on the distributor? They don't have overflow pens necessarily. Nobody's ever tested their backup incident response plans. There's no disaster recovery. There's no BCP because people just think, oh, well, you know, it's like business as usual.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
We're just going to lean on people around us in the community. But the community has shrunk because... We're losing agriculture jobs every day because people are moving to cities. It's not as popular anymore. It's trying to get a little more trendy.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I'll be honest around like regenerative agriculture, because you can be a total nerd and geek and still farm because now you can bring your cyber truck out to move your chicken house. Which looks sexy, right? Like not that it's not sexy, but it's just the concept of it is sexy. You could use, you know, hybrid cars or plugins to do that work. So that kind of is attractive, obviously.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
I've been kind of joking around. It's like cyber farming, you know, in a way. Yeah. I'm don't quote me on that. Cause if somebody brands that, I'll be like, well, but those kinds of things, people just don't have a good handle on the supply chain at all because it is huge.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And instead of actually, and I say this all the time and I ripped this off a friend of mine, that's an OT in the UK, but we literally keep trying to boil the ocean, find that silver bullet moment when we just need to sit down and make a cup of tea.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And if we start focusing on the smaller aspects, like, you know, people process, because honestly it's probably the easier and less expensive to deal with. And then move to, okay, we've got these technology that are in these environments. What are we doing with them? There are companies out there turning tractors into autonomous vehicles via like a little kit. That's O-T-I-C-S.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Like, hello, does the industry know that? Did you know that, listener? Did you know that? Like, that's stuff when I hear that, I'm like, oh my God, did anybody talk to the security teams around these? Like, the farmer doesn't have a security team. Mm-mm. The farmer doesn't have time for that. They are just happy if they break even and make some profit at the end of the year.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
That's what they want to do. Keep their families fed, the lights on, their cattle fed. That's it, right? It doesn't have to be more than that. But here we are as security professionals who have been in the industry long enough, both of us, and we know just how bad it's going to get because nobody's been dealing with this. So my worry, and I know I'm jumping your question, Seth. Okay.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Everybody get it. What my worry is over the next three to seven years, roughly, is that we're going to have such a major foodborne illness issue out of the food industry because of some cyber attack that hit, whether it's nation state, bad actor, disruptor, brand disruptions, whatever, that we're going to be so rattled that we're not going to know what to do.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And we're going to do the wrong things. We're going to put a Band-Aid that needs to be a stitches situation. And it's just going to make the supply chain even worse. And that's my concern. And I've talked to a few food safety experts who've asked me on air, literally, hey, how many bodies need to be on the floor before somebody does something? And my response back was probably a lot.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Okay, great. Thanks for having me on the show. I am Kristen DeMaranville. I am the host of Bites and Bites podcast. That's bites like you bite something and bites like computer bites, where I talk to cybersecurity and technology professionals and anybody else in the food and agricultural industry about cybersecurity and technology and what that means to our food supply. It's a really fun show.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
And I hate to say that out loud. And the person who asked me that actually lost a child to E. coli poisoning. So it was this really personal moment of, I'm sorry to say, I just think we're not smart enough to deal with it ahead of time. Because people don't like being proactive. They just want to be reactive. And that's frustrating.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Bites and Bites podcast in collaboration with Protect It All podcast. Your support means the world to me. I have some very exciting news. I've been nominated for the Women in Podcasting Awards in the technology category. Yeah. Please vote for the show.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Safeguarding the Grid and the Plate: OT Insights with Aaron Crow, Host of PrOTect IT All Podcast
Your vote would be a huge help in gaining visibility and raising more awareness for cybersecurity and food and agriculture. Voting is open now from August 1st till October 1st and the link can be found in the show notes. Thank you in advance. I appreciate you taking the time and I couldn't be more thrilled that the show has been nominated. Now back to my conversation with Aaron.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
No problem. I'm here for all the weird information.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Yeah, you converted to online for that, didn't you?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Yeah. Yeah, I could totally get that.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
We lost a lot of people as well. I mean, not because of COVID specifically, but a lot of people lost their jobs. Yeah. Yeah, that was a weird time. Yeah. I don't think a lot of people even realize how much the food supply chain got rocked during the COVID times.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
I don't really feel like there's really no great way to illustrate it other than we realized how broken it was, I guess, is probably the good thing that came out of it. And now we're trying to claw our way back. And not position flexibility. Correct. It was not agile at all. Hey listeners, a quick break from my conversation with Rick. The Bites and Bytes podcast is officially one years old.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Well, hi, Rick. Thanks for joining the show. I'm going to jump straight into it before you do your introduction. I would like to know what your favorite food is and your favorite food memory.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
It's been a fantastic year. And again, thank you to all of the OG listeners and the new listeners for joining me on this journey. I'm excited about the next chapter of the podcast, and I can't wait to bring you along.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Also, I want to take a moment and send a massive thank you to all of you who voted for the Bites and Bites podcast and the technology category for the Women in Podcasting Network Awards of 2024. Seriously, your support means the world to me, and I'm so grateful. The winners will be announced at the end of October, so stay tuned.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Fingers crossed, and thank you again for being such amazing listeners. Now back to my conversation. I'd like to say that there's been improvements since then, but we still are very rigid. And I think some of the things that have recently happened in the news, a.k.a. Boar's Head, has kind of reminded us that we need to pivot a little bit better and create cultures where people can say things.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Because obviously the reason why nothing happened there was because people didn't feel comfortable enough to say anything. I'm guessing there was just a really bad culture in that culture. plant. Now, this is me speculating. I'm not going any further.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
But that's why I think it's so important for events like this to be the way they are, Rick, because it needs to have that kind of culture vibe where people can feel accepted and okay to talk about problems that are going on in their facilities in an open, transparent way with respect, of course, to like NDAs without fear or ridicule or shame for, oh, you had that problem? You're obviously a loser.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
I've never felt that way standing at the conference because, well, first of all, I mean, I'm the outlier, either the or one of two that is from the cybersecurity world. I get excited when I see another cybersecurity person. I'm like, look, hi. It's just one of those things. Anyways, but I wanted to ask, who attends the conference?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Do you have a food fixation at the minute? No. Okay.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Just from listening to people tell me their stories about what happened to their company or I mean, it's China Mouse rules. We're not all going to be like, oh, this company is, you know, it doesn't matter. But the fact that people were able to really be candid with me and saying, I don't understand technology. I know I work with it, but like, what's the bad stuff?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
And it was that nice moment of we need to do more of that. you know, as an industry, specifically both the food and the cybersecurity side of the house. And I love that you facilitate that. I thought that was one of the best parts, personally. I still think, and then obviously the hallway chatter, because I can't go five feet without having a conversation or getting involved in something.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
And then, you know, there's so many characters in the food industry. I mean, we know so many people that just are bigger than life personalities and really make it so much more enjoyable. It takes the drudgery of the roles that we do out a little bit, which is really helpful because sometimes we really hear some really sad, nasty stuff. Like we really do. And it can be really draining at times.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
I'm sure this year will be rough at talking about everything. Listeria is a nasty thing. I can't believe we're still dealing with it truthfully. You mentioned technology, and I love that one of your favorite memories from the publishing is a technology rise, essentially. So you've been doing this for 13 years, Rick, right? And obviously you've had a food career before that.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Technology is all of a sudden sort of, I think, in the last decade, really, just taken off in the food industry. It's gone all kinds of directions. I was listening to some podcasts this morning about the agricultural side, and they've got tech that's crazy. I was like, excuse me, what? Now we've got this to deal with? But how do you see it going?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Because we've got a lot of really big issues that are coming up that I think only technology is going to be able to really solve. And we're still not solving the problem of, you know, the ransomware attacks that are happening in the industry and the other types of cyber attacks and the insider threats and all the other issues that go along with food safety in terms of the digital physical world.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Just curious what your thoughts are, like the last 13 years, how that has looked.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Actually, the new FISMA guidelines actually have clauses and they're talking about how there has to be cybersecurity protocols around your food safety protocols in terms of tech. So I was like, hello, does anybody know this? Now all the listeners do, but like, you know, that's not something that's been like broadcast in like cybersecurity world.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Yeah, you still have to say it, though. And I hate that we have to say it because I think that people just think cybersecurity is strong passwords, two-factor authentication, don't share your passwords. You know, just good hygiene in general. It has to be said because people still use the same password for their Gmail as they do for their email at work.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
You know, until we fix the human problem, it has to be said. However, I don't enjoy saying it. I hate saying it because I feel like, like you said, people should know this. They should know better. We teach it to elementary school kids. Like, come on, you know, but it is what it is.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Before we jump back in, I wanted to let you know where you can catch me live this October. I'll be speaking at the Food Safety Consortium on Monday, October 21st, followed by the ICS Conference in Atlanta from October 22nd to 24th. You won't want to miss my talk at that conference on Thursday, October 24th.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
After that, I'm heading to Montreal for the Insider Conference from October 28th through 30th, where I'll be on a fantastic panel with some of our previous podcast guests. All the details will be in the show notes. Now, I've got an exciting deal for you. Rick has been incredibly generous and offered a discount code to the Food Safety Consortium.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Use the code RICKYB at checkout to get $200 off your ticket. That's R-I-C-K-Y-B. Huge thanks to Rick for making this available to all the listeners. The Food Safety Consortium from October 19th to 22nd. The link to register will be in the show notes and you can find out more details at foodsafetyconsortium.org.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Correct. And it should be, especially since chief information security officers are being held accountable for Now, it does a food safety CISO or CISA, however you want to say it. Do they want to take full responsibility for a foodborne illness off a production line that came from a cyber attack? No, of course not.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
But would that motivate them to make sure that all the protocols were covered and we're constantly monitoring and being prepared and being resilient rather than just recovering? No. Yeah. So I see the good and the bad with it. It's a slippery slope too, Rick, because there's not enough people that understand the system. You know what I mean?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
The system of food and the system of how technology and food are together. You know as well as I do in these facilities, it's production uptime and employee safety. And that's all anybody cares about. Obviously food safety is included in that conversation, but it's, it's that constant movement. We gotta be agile. We gotta go, we gotta go. And if it gets in the way, they don't wanna deal with it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
So the idea, and I know that this is where I've sat down and I had some really awesome conversations at the conference and beyond.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Realizing that food defense and food safety and security have to work with business mindsets of how do we incorporate us into their bottom line, if you will, their production uptime and their employee safety and creating that food safety culture to grab the whole trifecta of buzzy words. But cybersecurity is part of that now.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
And again, I just go back to, it just makes complete logical sense to me. It's like a no-brainer. Like, of course we're involved in that now. Like, of course we are. But because the focus is always so heavily on the tech, people forget about all of the social engineering around it, all of the other little things that could happen, how it's a domino effect.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
You've already displayed that very well in what you just said. So I think we've got a lot of work to do. And I think... We've got a lot of ways to figure out how to work together and collaborate. I am very grateful that the food teams generally are very accepting of us. I do get a lot of conversations about how do I talk to cybersecurity and technology in my own company because they're not you.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
You're nice. I could talk to you. That's what I get. And I'm like, I said, you're a food company, right? They're like, yeah. I said, just bring them some food. Start with a peace offering. I mean, when I was in food production, there was always food around. So, I mean, it's always in the break rooms and stuff, depending on what it is. I mean, obviously, you're not going to want like a can of soup.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
But if you have like a bakery company, just bring whatever you're making there. I also said, you know, a lot of it comes down to they're very busy. They feel like they're on fire all the time, too. So if you can find ways to work with them, come up ideas that would help them alleviate their stress, then do it. It's kind of reciprocal in that regard.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
I do know some really great programs that some of the food companies are doing well in terms of cybersecurity. But I still haven't seen the true partnership between food safety and incorporation to food safety culture. It's definitely talked about more now. People are definitely paying attention.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
I know over the last like three years that I've been attending, it's definitely been more of a topic of conversation. And I think I've spoken in every one since I've been there and I will continue because it constantly needs to be repeated. But you're right. I think we need more scenario based conversations.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
I think that's really important to talk about it like that because people only understand if you can tell a story, that's a different conversation, right? You know this from being in publishing. If you can tell it in a way that makes people remember, it might cause a reaction rather than, oh, that's not my job. And I hope that's not what happened at Boar's Head either, because yikes.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
There seems like it's a series of unfortunate events that just kind of really went sideways. I mean, this is as bad as like the peanut corporation of America, but granted that was a different situation. That was malicious. This is so far not malicious, thankfully. That's real rough.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Yeah, he's put out some really powerful posts on LinkedIn, actually. I'll link a few into the show notes for the listeners, but he's definitely made me go, whoa, this is a really bad situation beyond it was already bad because people had lost their lives and have major complications beyond that. But the fact that, you know, I was speaking about this on a podcast this
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
this morning that the community was really ultimately affected heavily in that area of Virginia. They laid off 500 people. That's in a rural part of Virginia. That's not, that's 500 people in the workforce. That's not good. Like that's, that's really bad. And it's not like they got severance. The plant got closed. Like it's not, it's not going to be, this is, this is scary. It's frustrating. Yeah.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Unfortunately, someone's going to have to answer for it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
and the brand is tarnished big time i mean it's being made fun of in the media i saw boar's head hummus the other day and i was like absolutely not like i won't i won't touch anything from them right now because i don't know what their other facilities are like that's what i thought in my head and i'm i'm in the quote no but what about people who don't know you know that's what's really concerning because this is now
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
That's rare. Because normally it's shame and hiding.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Oh, he probably will be. That's probably already, it's going to happen.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Yeah, I mean, we could speculate because that's what makes sense, ultimately. Otherwise, it's just malicious intent at that point because everyone's accountable. I'm sure none of those people feel good about what's going on. I mean, it's gotta feel like crap. Trying to get away with something or not.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
It's experience. You paid for the experience.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Sure. And that's when they put the regulation for the temperature for meat, which they should have done a long time ago. But, I mean, it became a law.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
It's such a... There's so many things we could say about it, obviously. Personally, professionally, the whole thing. Hi, everyone. This is Kristen from the future. Before we continue, I wanted to provide an update since we recorded this episode. There's been significant news about the Boar's Head incident we discussed within this podcast.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Boar's Head is now appointed Frank Giannis, the former deputy commissioner of food policy and response at the U.S. FDA as their new chief food safety advisor. According to the recent article from Food Safety Tech, In this leadership role, Frank will be responsible for ensuring top-tier food safety and quality across the entire organization.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
That sounds amazing. Of course, you have to like truffles in order to appreciate this experience.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
He'll also lead a nationwide search for a chief food safety officer to succeed him. In addition to his advisory role, Frank will chair the Boar's Head Food Safety Advisory Council. This council includes independent, industry-leading food safety experts who will help guide the company in adopting enhanced food safety programs.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
If you're interested in hearing more from Frank, he will also be speaking at the Food Safety Consortium this year, where he'll be covering the topics of listeria and food processing environments. So stay tuned for what's sure to be a very insightful session. Now back to my chat with Rick. But I do remember, and I'm sure you saw it, they did post for the new head of food quality for Borsad.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
And I was like, is it too soon? I mean, they obviously need the help. But I thought, wow, whoever takes that role better have mixed in. Some of the heroes. They will be.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
That'd be one hell of a speaker if you could get them next year. You should totally. I mean, everybody needs to figure out who it is quickly and get that conversation going. But there are those in the industry that are like... Yeah, and I think that there are so many unsung heroes that are in the food safety space anyways.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
It's a privilege to stand around these people because you know that they have prevented massive disasters. And I think that's why I gravitate towards... The food industry more than I have in any other industry is because it's not just about safeguarding data, it's about safeguarding lives. And you can always feel good about waking up in the morning for that reason.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
And not that I'm saying anybody who just worries about data doesn't have a reason to get up, but that extra little like good of humanity and the good of the planet, like that feels really good. You know, it helps you charge up the hill a little bit faster. I really appreciate this, Rick, because first of all, I've learned a lot. So thank you very much.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
I've heard that's good. I mean, I like caviar and coconut ice cream, which is a weird combo too. Okay.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
I always love when I learn things on the podcast. I want to close out with what are your top few things that you think are very misunderstood in the food safety side? Because I have a lot of listeners that are in the operational technology space, cybersecurity, IT. I got a whole gamut of people who listen.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
But what do you want people to know that they're misunderstanding, especially since you write a publication because you hear this and you know this?
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How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
And for all the cybersecurity IT listeners out there, is that ring true for you? Do you hear that all the time in your industry? Because we are definitely considered a cost center because we are expensive. There's so many similarities between food safety teams and cybersecurity and IT teams. It's ridiculous to me now.
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How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Like we are all going through the same stuff, you know, in different ways, of course. But it's such a similar. So I'm so glad you said that, Rick, because I'm like, yeah, it should absolutely be. It's more of insurance, really, in my mind. That's how I see it. If it's not there, bad stuff's going to happen. And it's just part of business.
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How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
And I really wish we'd stop this whole like cost center versus profit, that kind of vibe in corporate because it creates those silos even more. And we need to cut through that crap inside of the food industry because it's not helping anybody. Ultimately, I think collaboration, as we've said throughout most of this episode, is really key to success and keeping food safe and people healthy.
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How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
So yeah, that's a good one. It's not a good one, but it's
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Yeah, actually, that's a fair shout out. I mean, what can you do with the data you get out of things? Could that be a profit thing? Or could it be something that could be used in other places in the business? I can use that as an example with a lot of the cybersecurity tech that's out there that's monitoring and doing all these things. We might be able to tell a
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
there's been a contamination detected on the line before any of the food safety equipment does because we're watching the sensors differently so we'll see a tampering in a different place or we'll be able to tell if somebody's corrupted on one side from unauthorized entry which the food safety technology wouldn't necessarily tell you that's why it's a combined forces moment this is why i tell people make sure you check each other's audits like it's important
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
I do think we'll see that potentially coming into play at some point, at least I hope, because it's such great data. And then if you feed it through any type of machine learning, AI, I know everybody just cringed, but it's true. You'll have a different outlook on it as well, because we can't think of everything. Neither can the AI, but we can't either. So it's just more data, the better, right?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
As I always say, if you can have it, it's good. So that's actually a really fair shout out. And this is why I'm going to say what I say, and I constantly say it all the time, Rick. I love that we're bringing more tech into the industry, but when people say tech, I'm I want people to also think cybersecurity. The software may not be made securely necessarily.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
And they may expect you to be the ones that are responsible for the security. Are you going to be responsible for security? Or are you just going to buy it and then throw it at your teams and expect them to secure it when they don't even understand what it is or what it does? There needs to be like more conversation there.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
That sounds so fun. So I love your memory. That's brilliant. And also, I think that we can say your favorite food is probably anything your wife makes.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
So I love that everybody wants to bring tech in, but please just partner with people that can do it because otherwise you're going to have a whole new attack factor that could just create all these awful scenarios that I will explain to you if you come and listen to my talk at the consortium. It's just, it's so bad. Like we are, we're, a good friend of mine says we're right at boom all the time.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
We really are sometimes. Just right at boom. Thanks, Rick. I really appreciate this. This is awesome. And I really do hope that people think about coming over to see the consortium. It's actually going to be in Crest City, Virginia this year, right?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
I would encourage anyone who's listening, if you want to know more about the food industry, this is a great publication to read about because it does cover the gambit. It gives you enough information to kind of get you excited about things and want to do more research. It definitely started me down my path years and years ago, for sure. I still reference it, Rick, when I do talks.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
So, well, I mean, where else am I going to find these resources that's actually talking about real problems and what's going on rather than the news? Like, I don't necessarily want the news. I want people to think about it and talk about it. And that's what I appreciate about what you do.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
That's the idea. Thanks so much for being here.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
And that's a wrap, everyone. Huge thanks to our guest, Rick, for sharing his wisdom with us today. And of course, a big thank you to all of you for tuning in. The show notes will have all the links to our topics and information about the Food Safety Consortium. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to like, comment, and share it with your friends and colleagues.
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How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
I mean, you have your bad days. Like I made a bad meal the other day. Thank you very much for that, Rick. And I'm going to let you introduce yourself to the audience.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Your support keeps me going and happy one year to us all. Stay safe, stay curious, and I'll see you on the next one. Bye for now.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
And I am a subscriber to Food Safety Tech. So should you know, Rick, I don't know if you ever knew that, but I am. It's actually really great, especially for those of us who are on the peripheral of the industry, because it's, you know, current events, opinions, what's going on. It's actually a really, you've done a brilliant job.
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How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
I haven't found an article on there that I didn't find to be engaging. Maybe I haven't dug deep enough, but generally speaking, everything I've read has been great. You could tell that it's well curated and well loved. So thank you for that work. You mentioned the consortium, the Food Safety Consortium, which is actually coming up in October. I am a speaker, but we can get into that later.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Why did you start this, Rick? Why did you decide to start a conference, to start a publication? Those are two things I don't think people wake up in the morning and think, I want to do that because it's a lot of work and you do a great job. I'm not saying that the conference isn't wonderful and I just obviously raved about your publication, but why? What led you to that?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Yeah, there were other kids.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Bites and Bites podcast. I am your host, Kristen Nemiran-Bill. Today, we have an awesome guest, Rick Byros, the founder of Food Safety Tech and the Food Safety Consortium Conference. We will discuss how food safety and cybersecurity are more connected than you think. Also, we'll discuss some current news in food safety.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
That is, I didn't actually know the whole story. So I really appreciate that. Now I have even more respect because you had to be patient too and kind of wait for some things to get together. And you had a fundraise. I mean, I'm sure you're still fundraising, but entrepreneurs, we never stop. But that's amazing.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
And I don't really know if people know that story when they go to the consortium, obviously, because they just go and they listen to the talks and they do their things and they network.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
It really is. I went to my first consortium three years ago, I think it was now, Rick. I think we've known each other for about three years. And I have never felt more seen by an industry that was not my industry. I mean, accepted immediately. I didn't even think about it. They didn't think about it. I was just immediately sit down, talk to us.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
And I just fell in love with the group of people and I'm still, and now I'm friends with most of them. So it's really this great community, like you said, that just comes together and wants to do the right thing. And the reason why it's such a good conference too is it's the candor that can come from it. Everybody speaks freely. There's really not a lot of fear in that.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Obviously, the government agents, they take their beat, which is fine. But I was never at a conference where people just kind of like raised their hand and spoke and just said what they wanted to say in the crowd. And that, I mean, I kind of went back to the security community and I thought, wow, we should really be doing that more, right?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
So we should be speaking our minds, but we play politics a lot. So that's hard. But I just want you to know, I love that you've cultivated this networking, inclusive group that gets together and is able to actually share problems and find actual solutions. I was watching solutions being presented in real time. It was really wonderful to see that.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
And I'm very excited to see what's going to happen this year as well, since we've got a lot to talk about with like, you know, Boar's Head and speaking of disasters and a few other things. And all the new regulations that are supposedly coming out and all these other fun things.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
And Rick has some fantastic insights, so you won't want to miss this episode. But before we get started, I just wanted to say a heartfelt thank you to all of you for your love and support over the past month. As many of you know, I recently lost my grandfather, my last living biological grandparent.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
I wanted to ask, because you got me thinking while you were talking, what is your most memorable moment from the publication and also the consortium? So you keep that in your head whenever you think about it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Your kind words, messages, and calls have all meant so much to my family and me, and we are deeply grateful. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. On a positive before we get started with the show, a little bonus for you today. Make sure you listen all the way through and grab a special discount code for the Food Safety Consortium Conference. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Rick.
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How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
That's amazing. Yeah.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
That's great. That's good feedback, actually. That's really great feedback.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
That's awesome. How many years has it been running now?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
Oh, so you got a teenager.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
How Cybersecurity is Reshaping Food Safety with Rick Biros
You got a teenager now. Wow.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Industry Challenges: A Legal Perspective with Mike Delaney
Quick announcement, everyone.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Industry Challenges: A Legal Perspective with Mike Delaney
Welcome to the Bites and Bites podcast. I'm your host, Krista DeMoranville. And today I'm excited to have a special guest and also a good friend, Mike Delaney.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Industry Challenges: A Legal Perspective with Mike Delaney
The poultry industry is probably ahead of other parts of the industry.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Industry Challenges: A Legal Perspective with Mike Delaney
I want to take a moment to give a huge shout out and thank you to all of you who voted for the Bites and Bites podcast in the technology category of the Women in Podcasting Awards 2024.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Industry Challenges: A Legal Perspective with Mike Delaney
I'm pretty much the same way. Although I will say when I would drive to work in the morning and pull into the factory and they were making chocolate icing, it was a little bit like walking into Willy Wonka.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Industry Challenges: A Legal Perspective with Mike Delaney
In storage rooms, the roof could blow off because if you had an explosion, you wanted to direct it in one direction. Yeah.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Industry Challenges: A Legal Perspective with Mike Delaney
Thanks so much for tuning in to today's episode of the Bites and Bites podcast. A big thank you to my guest, Mike, for sharing his insights, experience, and a few laughs.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Food Industry Challenges: A Legal Perspective with Mike Delaney
Well, in my experience, I mean, and this is not a cyber issue, but I experienced circumventing safety, my role prior to joining CSM.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
So Mark, can you give top five things if you're concerned that you might have an issue with SBOMs in your company, like what to do? And I don't necessarily need to go into massive detail. I love this six-year-old explanations you're doing because for myself as well, even though I am familiar with them, it helps. So thank you. Sure.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
And before people go, oh, my company doesn't develop software, you probably do and you don't realize it. Because a lot of the- Chuck E. Cheese developed software. Right, that's terrifying. Because I immediately thought of the mouse moving around and I thought, well, that's probably a software built in the background. I thought of the ball pit.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Yeah, definitely. And I think a lot of people just need to take a look at third party risk management. And that doesn't necessarily mean on a cybersecurity front, there's enterprise third party risk management, you know, and what is your company actually doing? Are you managing your vendors? Are you asking questions? Are you being due diligent? And to me, this is part of food safety culture.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
You have to be due diligent. People are coming into your facilities, whether it's digitally or physically, they should be questioned at the door. And not just because you're an exclusive club, mainly because you're an exclusive club, but you have to have bouncers and that's what this is. This is about protecting the food systems that we have because we have to do it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
We've now live in a world that is changed. This wasn't a question 20 years ago.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
necessarily and now all of a sudden it's become that I think about like the the chipsets for boards and things like that I've watched them being made in factories before and I often question does anybody have what happens with the software that goes on this do we have like a list of things that go on this and people always looked at me weird and I was like but I'm just curious like what are you doing and the question always was it goes to the the vendor and then they do what they want with it but we made the board are we responsible
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
I don't know, like those kind of things start to come in my mind for when I talk about SBOMs because where does the responsibility really lie? You know, is it, I think it's both parties. I think it's the receiver and the giver for sure have to be responsible on both sides of the house for what they do with their software. It's basic hygiene, really.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
And you wouldn't even let your driver in the door. They sit in like a caged area inside the warehouse, generally speaking.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
I think that's because people try to boil the ocean when they just need to make a cup of tea. One of my favorite quotes from a friend. It's true, though, right? Because when you look at it as a whole, it's like, oh, my goodness, like this is so much. And then you center it down to like that one warehouse that you're working with or that that one particular facility you're in.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
It gets a little easier to deal with because if you can get it to work in one of your production environments or your your farm or any type of industry you're in, you'll be able to duplicate it. It should be fairly easy. It might be a little more nuanced in some places, depending on what you have, if you have different regulations that are based on that.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
But generally speaking, you can duplicate the work. It's not like you're gonna reinvent the wheel every time. And I think that's what people get stressed about because supply chain in general is so daunting because you're looking at the whole supply chain. It's ginormous. You can't do that. You have to look at it and like, how does it affect me?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
And I always tell people, get a whiteboard or something or a piece of paper. And literally draw like your facility in the middle and then figure out everything that's around it and then go after it one at a time, you know, and then if you can attack a couple at a time, great.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
That's good. It's very hard to maintain a relationship and be an entrepreneur and a co-founder. I know this from experience. It's definitely a journey for sure. And sometimes you're heading towards Mordor and you just have to kind of steer away.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
That's how you deal with supply chain, really, in like the most basic bare bones sense in terms of security and or management in general. Yeah. And I'm sure there's some supply chain people on the on that are listening to like. No, it's so much more complicated. No, it really isn't. Like it really is that much of a breakdown. You don't have to make it difficult. You're just making it difficult.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Don't make it difficult. You need to make it simple. And especially with the food industry that's running in a rapid rate, they're forecasted out. This is a lot of stuff going on. We're innovating. We're preparing for the future at all times. Nobody's got time to sit there and deal with the detailed daunting tasks. So if they can replicate it and do it faster, they will.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Or if they can automate it in some capacity, also will help. I mean, we have things like AI. I know open source is a scary thing, but that is going to help in this situation at some point, I'm sure, because it can analyze massive amounts of data, which a human being can't do. So...
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Mark, as I'm saying all that, I'm now wondering what does Manifest Cyber do in this world and how are you helping and get through this? Because clearly this is something that where everybody's going to probably either need help with or to scale up or if you're a small shop or even if you're a big shop, you're going to need a little support because again, like we said, can't boil the ocean.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
You can only make that cup of tea.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
That's awesome.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
We'll be right back after a short break. Or if you would prefer a less personal way to share your feedback, we also have an audience survey available in the show notes and on the website. Did you also know that Bites and Bites podcast has an Instagram and LinkedIn page? Check us out and give us a follow on both. Thank you for those who already do.
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Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Yeah, there's a lot of entrepreneur startups in the food industry for sure, too. So I think a lot of them come out of families and friends. And I think that's the way to do it. I think you're right, Mark. Thanks for that intro. So let's jump into my favorite part of the podcast. Besides all the great information I get, tell me your favorite food and your favorite food memory.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Lastly, if you enjoyed the show, please rate us on your listening platform. Believe it or not, this really helps the show and encourages others to find us. As a listener, you are part of the show and your support is paramount. Thank you so much. Now back to my conversation with Mark.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
And especially if you're doing food defense investigations or any type of food safety investigations, you will have probably at some point have to look at an SBOM just to understand what happened with the software if it ended up being some type of a cyber physical situation.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
And I think that's super important to be able to know where that is and be able to work with the people who can probably translate it for you because some of it won't be overly, as you say, easy to read, basically. Yeah. if some of it will be a little bit more daunting. So being able to work with those teams and knowing which teams to go to is important, too.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
And again, this goes back to having a strong third party management team that is actually knows your business and what you're doing. And that's that's super important. You know, you touched on this a bit, Mark, that we isolate a lot inside of our different silos, of course.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
And I think it's really frustrating to me that a lot of times when you work in certain aspects of security, you actually don't even really understand what the company is doing or what they are. Are they a manufacturing company? Are they an entertainment company? Are they a food company? Or what are they?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
And I think it's super important, especially within food safety culture, that you identify and make sure everybody understands that we are making food, we are a food company, but we also are a food manufacturing company, as an example. And I know that seems really stupid to say, but people forget.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
People forget what they're doing because they get so isolated into, I am running the numbers and accounting and finance, and I am the HR person. I'm just dealing with people. And I think some people forget the main mission is good, safe food for all, full stop. And as long as everybody goes to that beat of that drum, it runs smoother. Trust and believe. It really does.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
And people are like, oh, Christian culture. Oh, it's this whole, you know. Yeah. All right. Get over it. Like it is. This is what has to happen. I would like to continue eating safe food. I'm sure Mark would like to feed his family and eat good too. Yeah. And if it comes down to that, you have to actually start really working hard to make SBOMs easier to deal with for food. Yeah, do it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
It's it's not a problem in that regard. It's just the again. And everybody's like, oh, no, it's probably too daunting. Again, boil the ocean. Don't do that. You know, make the tea. And you've created a platform that makes tea. It doesn't boil the ocean. which is great.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
And I really appreciate the fact that you've put it in common language and you really have kind of formed up that common language for people so they understand what it is and what it isn't, which is what regulations are supposed to do, right? Automove is a great example. They created a language set that everybody can speak to. Now you're creating a language set for SBOM, so it's not so daunting.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Granted, we have the worst acronym, I think, out there. It's okay. We'll just, we're going to roll with it. I mean, I'm sure there are worse ones out there. And if you heard any acronyms on the show today that you were like, what was that? Don't worry about it. It's fine. I honestly, you can Google it if you want, but don't worry. It's, it's, I can't even keep track of all of them either.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
They do not need to be one in the same.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
And all of the government acronyms too, on top of all the security ones and the IT ones, it gets a very yikes. And then the food industry as a whole has a ton of them as well. So as humans, why are we doing this? Why do we, why do we do this to each other? Cause this just creates confusion. Yeah.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
I mean, how do you talk to people on the plane, Mark? You're like, yeah, I work with an S-bomb company. People are like, what?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Welcome to the Bites of Bites podcast, where we explore the intersection of cybersecurity, technology, and so much more in the food industry. I'm your host, Kristin de Marenville, and today we have a great guest for you, Mark Frankel, CEO and co-founder of Manifest Cyber.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Yeah, well said, well said. And I do think that the world is kind of spinning madly round, we'll call it a song. And I think that a lot of people get stuck on, I call it the shiny, especially when you go in and do a factory tour and they walk you through the lines and it's like the VIP tour and they roll the red carpet out and you get to see all it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
And all you look at about what's coming off of the belt, kind of like those TV shows that you like inside the factory. Yeah, sure. And you're just like, ooh, look at that stuff. And I always say, stop getting stuck on the shiny. You need to start looking around it. You need to start seeing what's going on, how is it supported and put up. And that starts a lot with people in process.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
So I like that you've actually handled this on a people process aspect rather than just attacking the tech. Because the tech is important to work with, but ultimately people are going to undo or make it better or make it worse or do all these things around it, manipulate it in some way. based on the processes they use at each facility. So it's not always a cookie cutter situation.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
It's more of an organic kind of living situation. I think that's why supply chain management is so daunting because it's like this living organism that kind of keeps changing and adding things and removing things. And now we have new ways of moving product and we have new types of software that are coming in.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Then AI jumps in and then it's like all these things and it's just, some people are just like, whoa. And then I think to myself, how does the animal kingdom actually work, right? Like all these animals live together. I was having this conversation with my partner yesterday.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
We were walking around our little lake and he said, do you think the birds talk to each other or do they talk to like the turtle or like the ducks? And I said, I don't know. I think they just acknowledge each other, right? Like they just kind of live in harmony. Like it's kind of there. I said, us humans could really take a beat on that because, you know, we should just live in harmony with it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
And that's, it kind of comes back down to that systems thinking aspect where, you know, everything's kind of in its holistic cycle and that's how the supply chain is. It's a cycle. Ultimately.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Or the data center that was inside the woman's room.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
You know, I have at some point I should do some more stories because I got them on it going in and out of factories. And I'm sure you do too, Mark, when you've heard CFC things.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
You know, I often say that a cyber attack is going to happen. It's just a matter of when, not if now. We're really that far down this line now. And staying resilient through it is what we're trying to do. Meaning you don't lose your business. You don't have to fire your people. You can keep things moving. You can keep the food safe.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
So really, in reality, is S-bombs are just trying to keep people resilient. That's just all it is. You know, as long as you know that you can deal with it. If you don't know, then you've got a problem. And nobody wants that like bill that shows up in the mail from something you probably did 10 years ago and totally forgot about.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
You know, it's like that kind of like, oh, that anxious feeling, that horribleness, that shame that hits you like a ton of bricks or something to that effect. I think people need to look at it like that, where we're mitigating the shame of you not knowing. And also we're making sure that when something does happen, that you can survive it. That's the important part.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
And I really think that that's what we need to talk about more inside of cybersecurity and in I.T. is how we're going to get you through this, because it's going to happen. Nobody's safe anymore from cyber attacks or scams or any type of ransomware or anything like that. all the due diligence you do up front is going to keep you strong. And that's what we want you to do.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
We want you to be strong so you can survive that said virus or that said situation or somebody fat fingered something and something happened on the line or whatever happened. We want to make sure that you can get through it. And the nice thing, too, is that you're also providing help for your other factories that are in different companies that are inside your company, because if you have
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
really good handle on your SBOMs, that's going to be great for those other factories because everybody makes food for everybody else's factories. And, you know, it's a whole chain. It's a web. So I think that you're helping a neighbor out almost if you do this correctly. Right. And I think that's an incentive in itself.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Feel free to use that mark for your company taglines, like helping a neighbor, because it's true. That's what you're doing because you're ultimately helping others by making sure you're OK. And I think that that is, again, another thing that people don't think about that often. Mm hmm.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
So, Mark, as we're coming to a close here, and I've really enjoyed this talk because I love it when people make things simple. Talk about the future of SBOMs and where you see the supply chain moving. And I just want to know what you think the next couple of years are going to look like and what we should be on the lookout for.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Yeah. And to end on a positive here. We will. I can get you there. I think what I heard in that was there's opportunity, especially within the food industry specifically, because they are already doing this work very well when it comes to food traceability and the new laws that are coming out with that. And I think that this is just one in the same.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
So if your organization is already on that on that journey, then culturally you're good.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Like you're going to get there all the way through with SBOMs as well, because you're going to need it for that transparency aspect and that traceability aspect, because you're going to need to know what software is touching your product, whether it's the machine that's running to make your perfectly round cookies or whatever. or something to that effect.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
And I think that's super important to acknowledge is because the food industry is really good at that because they're doing it for the right reasons, the mission, as you said. As a whole, I will say this in a broad sense, in a very optimistic sense, I think the food industry is going to adopt very easily and very well to this. Other industries will struggle.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
I don't want to pick on anybody and I'm not going to. But there will be some industries that will have trouble with this because there's too much change. There's too much regulations. There's too much everything. And they won't, they'll be boiling the ocean instead of making their tea again.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
I think that that's what I like about the food industry is because the innovative nature, the constant change that's always there. So I think that they can roll through this. The food industry as a whole is really going to adopt this easily.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
And I'm sure you're already seeing that, Mark, when your own work that when you have these conversations, especially with the food side, they're like, oh, yeah, OK, totally get that. That's good. Like that kind of thing happens. We understand.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Absolutely. And I think that is probably the best place to leave it. Mark, thank you very much for your time and being here. And I'm sure we'll have you back on the pod at some point because this is going to constantly be a topic that we're going to have to bring up. It'd be nice if we could get an AI expert on with the same time with you and we can kind of hash that out.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
I think that'd be a fun time. But anyways, thank you very much. And all of Mark's information will be in the show notes too. So if you have any questions about his company or any of the other thoughts and feelings, please let him know.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
That's all for today's Bites and Bites podcast episode. A big thank you to Mark Frankel for joining us and sharing his invaluable insights on S-bombs and cybersecurity in the food industry. All of Mark's information will be in the show notes. Don't forget to check out the new merch store on the website. Like, follow, and subscribe to our social channels and wherever you listen to the podcast.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Thank you for listening as always. And remember, stay safe, stay curious, and we'll see you on the next one. Bye for now.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Obviously listeners can't see me and I'm making all kinds of like cringe faces and on top of the fact that it was shark and like, it's just bleh. So I mean, that's like, I guess it's like a, maybe I should start doing the worst food memory, but I feel like I don't, I don't think we want to talk about those stories, but I do like that you had a travel food story.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
So we're going to call it that Mark, your favorite travel food story.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Well, thank you for sharing that. That's great. I'm glad I, and we're recording obviously in the morning and you wouldn't know this listeners, but I just ate breakfast. So I'm really glad I ate breakfast because otherwise I would be starving.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Mark is here to help us unpack the complex world of software bill of materials, or as they are more commonly known as SBOMs, and their critical role in securing our food systems. I hope you enjoy our conversation about the world of SBOMs and the food industry. Hi, Mark. Thanks for being here. Really appreciate your time. I will jump in with an introduction first. Sure.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Well, it is, it is my home. You know, I am a Northeaster, so I understand we do crave weird food when we're up there for sure. Including things like whoopie pies and you know, all that fun stuff, which I don't eat anymore, but yes.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Yeah, I think you're right. It's really the nostalgic kind of thing. Having one is sort of like remembering childhood, you know, that like really over pungent, sweet, spongy cake with the cream sauce. Yeah, it's definitely like childhood or like proper farm stand ice cream, you know, Mert ice cream, not soft.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
So yeah, that's definitely the whole nostalgic memories come flying back when you start thinking about all of that and where you were and the fact that it's probably summer and you got it all over yourself too. And yeah, all those memories are great. Thanks, Mark. This is great.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
So going back to your company and the reason why I wanted to have you on the show is because we're going to talk about SBOMs. And everybody's like, what's that? That sounds horrible. It's not. Acronyms are weird. But I'm going to let you, Mark, explain what an SBOM is and how that intersects with the food industry. And most people who touch it in the food industry know what it is.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
But I want to make sure the rest of the listeners know, since we have a mixed audience. Take it away.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
That is probably the best way I've ever heard it described. Thank you for relaying it back into food because I think everybody understands what you just said. I, you know, I was thinking too, that it's not like you can actually print out a recipe of all the code, you know, necessarily. I mean, you can, but are you going to understand it? It has to be like labeled. This is the header.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
This is the footer. This is, this is how the little boxes green, you know, whatever, all the crazy design stuff on top of the actual functional aspects of it. That's, Very daunting and wow, you know, and this is why it's such a beast of a situation because it's huge. It's massive.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Excellent. And how did you get to that co-founding-ness?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Think about all the things that run on software, especially inside the food industry, which, as we know, has become a prime target for all kinds of cyberware attacks. And this is this is just one of those attack factors that we need to deal with better and more efficiently, I think I would say, because it's not that people aren't aware of it. It's just you don't know what you don't know.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Like you said, you don't know that there's no labels on your your raisin boxes in the in the pantry. You know, you just know you have reasons, you know, that's it.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Can you get a PhD in cyber risk management?
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
Wow. That's really intense, actually. I'm kind of scared of what their dissertation was, to be truthful. I don't want to know that necessarily. Yikes. Absolutely.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
I think that that's the premise of why we have Bytes & Bytes podcast and why we talk about this kind of thing, because we're trying to make it less daunting, less scary, less intimidating to have a conversation with cybersecurity experts and IT people. because we're all trying to do the same thing and just going about it in a different way.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
And I really think that being a generalist is a really important thing these days, as well as being a specialist. But you can't be a specialist in isolation. Like you just said, you can't.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
You have to be able to talk to people around you because SBOM's touched so much in so many different parts of the business, as well as, you know, cybersecurity does and IT does and food safety and all these things. We're all on the same mission, you know, safe food for all. regardless of what our role is.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
And I think it's so important to continue to having conversations with different aspects of the business, including these type of things, because as we digitize, it's just becoming more apparent that we don't know what we don't know. And since the food industry loves to innovate and we love them for it, we need to make sure that they're protected.
Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
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Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
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Bites & Bytes Podcast
Unpacking Cybersecurity Ingredients: SBOMs in the Food Industry with Marc Frankel
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