Ash
Appearances
Morbid
Listen Now: Scam Factory
we've all gotten those suspicious messages and scam calls right well behind those suspicious messages flooding your inbox lies a nightmare that's all too real scam factory the gripping new true crime podcast from wondery exposes a multi-billion dollar criminal empire operating in plain sight every suspicious text you ignore masks a vast network of compounds where thousands are held captive forced to scam others under the threat of death
Morbid
Listen Now: Scam Factory
Told through one family's harrowing account of sleepless nights, desperate phone calls, and dangerous rescue attempts, Scam Factory reveals a brutal truth. The only way out is to scam their way out. I'm about to play a clip from Scam Factory where one character, Jella, learns horrifying news while she's trapped inside the Scam Factory.
Morbid
Listen Now: Scam Factory
Binge all episodes of Scam Factory early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Morbid
Listen Now: Scam Factory
While you're listening, follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Morbid
Introducing: Law & Crime’s LUIGI
Hey, weirdos. You know we usually steer clear of active cases, not because we're not following them, but because we believe in giving you the complete, thoroughly researched picture while also staying respectful to everybody involved. But we have been absolutely glued to the Law and Crime Network lately following the Luigi Mangione trial.
Morbid
Introducing: Law & Crime’s LUIGI
For those who are having a hard time with the name, Luigi is the 26-year-old charged with the December murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. And while we want to be really mindful about how we discuss this, because at its core, this is about the loss of a human life, we can't ignore how this case has sparked some really complex conversations across social media.
Morbid
Introducing: Law & Crime’s LUIGI
You just heard a clip from the first episode of Law & Crime's Luigi. You can listen to the full episode and more when Law & Crime's Luigi releases exclusively on Wondery Plus starting March 24th. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts, and follow the show page for weekly update episodes on the Luigi Mangione case as it unfolds in real time.
Morbid
Introducing: Law & Crime’s LUIGI
That's why we're super excited to tell you about Law & Crime's new podcast series, Luigi. What makes this podcast series special is how thoughtfully they're handling such a sensitive topic. The host, Jesse Weber, is doing an incredible job presenting a comprehensive look at the case through exclusive interviews, courtroom documents, and in-depth coverage.
Morbid
Introducing: Law & Crime’s LUIGI
It explores not just the trial itself, but the deeper questions this case has raised about our healthcare system, all while never losing sight of the human impact at its center. I'm about to play you a clip from the first episode of Law & Crime's Luigi, which will be available exclusively on Wondery Plus on March 24th. Already a Wondery Plus member? Then you can start listening to Luigi right now.
Morbid
Introducing: Law & Crime’s LUIGI
Not yet subscribed? Head to wonderyplus.com to get early ad-free access to this series, Morbid, and so many other amazing shows.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Sorry. No, you go ahead. Mine was... I wanna be loved by you just you and nobody else but you.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Jo Ann. That's my favorite one she does. Jo Ann. Hold on, now I need water. Jo Ann.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
And I was like, I think it's your honor. You were like, excuse me. I was like, did you break? What happened?
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Did you hear that? Neither of you reacted to that. Like, am I Dinavan, please? What the fuck? Mom?
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
Alina's next book is just the movers conversation about the dolls. Just their conversation.
Morbid
Episode 641: Listener Tales 94
The great guy. The great guy. We were like, oh, gosh. The greatest guy.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Hey weirdos, it's Ash. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about the spooky perks of Wondery Plus. It's like having a skeleton key that unlocks ad-free listening and early access to new episodes. So don't wait, try Wondery Plus today. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Now concerned, I jogged across the track to the light switch and the thermostat. I flicked on the lights and the thermostat was at 66. As soon as I read the number, I felt warmer, reassured. I tried getting back to my run. Was it the ghosts everyone had told me about? No one had mentioned them being anti-health assholes.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Like, hello, I'm trying to scrape together a couple endorphins and hide my big feelings and even bigger muscles. I could be at the pub, but no, I was in the freaking field house at 9 p.m. on a Friday. Ha!
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
about 30 seconds i like that you were trying to hide your big feelings and even bigger muscles no after about 30 seconds into this internal monologue the lights flickered annoyed i shouted knock it off i'm almost done just like that the lights stopped flickering they stayed on the rest of the time and i was able to continue my run and finish my introduction to your podcast i Thanks, ghosties.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Yeah, shout out to the ghosts. Over the next several weeks, I continued listening to Morbid on my runs, and the same thing happened a few more times to varying degrees. The ghosts had shenan'd once, and they chose to shenanigan. I see what you did there. I like that.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
however each time i told them to knock it off they did it honestly felt like they were trying to prank me or maybe they were annoyed that i was huffing and puffing in their hangout past bedtime well i never saw the soccer kids again my ex-boyfriend and i started to have dreams that ghosts were hanging out in my apartment throwing parties and hosting game nights while we were laying sleeping in my bed that's kind of funny i kind of love that yeah
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
My dog, Lady, seemed like she could see them and would stare around the room gazing at nothing, sometimes whining for no reason at all. My cabinets would open by themselves and stuff would be moved, but I never felt threatened in any way. It always felt like I was in the way.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I had the overwhelming feeling that they thought of me the way a superior alien race might think of a puppy, cute but useless, or the way teenagers think of millennials these days, cringe. Oh. So anytime the shenanigans began to flare up, I would tell the ghosts what I tell my students. Grow up. It never works with my students, but it did work with the ghosts.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
you know it's been it's been a long week it kind of came up quick it's been a it's been a long week but it's actually wednesday yeah it's been a long couple of weeks that tells you everything long couple of weeks good things yeah for the most part good things great things um what was it was it last weekend that we watched um blumhouse was super nice and sent us a screener
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Whatever they were doing to bother me would stop for a while. I really began to wonder if it was you two spooky gals that awakened these prankster ghosts. I did. I take full responsibility. Could be. That was me. I did it. Canon. It was like they heard me listening to y'all and said to themselves, this bitch will be a good sport. She'll be down to hang with some rascals having a little fun.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
In the end, I completed my first and last half marathon.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Hell yeah. Good job. And got a new job that had a better work-life balance. That makes me happy for you.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
While I haven't had any true ghost encounters since leaving, the lady tragically passed away from cancer shortly after moving to a new city. Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. Even though she's gone, I can still feel her with me. Yep. A ghost lady. Yeah, a ghost lady. I love that. In my room, by the foot of my bed, or laying in her spot next to me on the couch.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
And my personal favorite, every time I take a bath, I can feel her spirit laying on the bathroom floor near me like she used to love to do when she was still alive. Oh, my cats do that. I love that.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Anyway, thanks for reading and keep it weird, but not so weird that you turn into a ghost to prank a 20-something-year-old going through a quarter-life crisis and has the absurd idea that accomplishing a difficult and random task will somehow fix her. It won't, but therapy will. Peace and love, Leah motherfucking Baker. Leah motherfucking alias Baker. I love you, Leah motherfucking Baker.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
That was absolutely fantastic. That was a good one. And, oh, lady is beautiful. Let me see. lady also you're beautiful oh wait i'm a motherfucking baker i was like let me see as if i can't see that on my own yeah leah motherfucking baker you're gorgeous and so is lady oh my god oh and good on you true good job you finished that half marathon you did that shit You did it, brother.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I'm going to close this while this lady reads. So I'm not half Mac. Human lady. Half Mac. Sometimes I become half Mac when we do these things. How did Mikey put it? You're very Mac forward.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
And Mikey tried to subtly tell me, but I don't understand subtlety. Yeah, that's okay.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
you know yeah so but now it close and i closed yeah i close now i'm woodsboro forward i love that i always am i yeah truly all right well my next one is also just called listener tales hey you guys are short sweet into the point really let's go you leave that if you want to all right so listener tale devil on campus oh
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Boy, do I have a story for you. I'm hydrated. Hydrated? I think that's why. I'm hydrated too, but I don't feel as funny. I feel silly and hydrated. Silly goofy? Yeah. Silly goofy girl.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
There's the... Sorry. There's a creator on TikTok. He's like not a creator on TikTok. He's just like a comedian. Morgan Jay. And have you ever seen it? Have I showed you his videos? I feel like you have. Are you a goofy guy? I think you have showed me him.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
So we had a movie night with Mikey and Death. With Death. And they gave us the trailer for Drop, which actually doesn't come out. God only knows when you're seeing this. Jod. Jod only knows. Jod only knows, babe. But yeah, it was fun. It's a fun movie. And it's really fun getting screeners. So thank you so much to Blumhouse.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
A goofy guy. He's like, I'm a goofy guy. Yes, you did show me him. I want to go to one of his shows so badly. I think you should. And calling you a silly goose made me think of that. I like that. Everybody go check out Morgan Jay. He's very funny. Do it. All right, Lisa. My name is Lisa. Feel free to use my name. Lisa! I'm using it so much. Boy, do I have a story for you. Oh, yeah.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
It may sound too crazy to be true, but trust me, I stayed up many nights following these events not wanting to believe it myself because what? Where does something like this actually happen except maybe a bad B-rated horror flick? Well, I'll tell you where. My neighbors and eventually my own college dorm room. for the 2009 to 2010 academic year.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I won't share the name of the school because I truly love that campus and I don't want them to receive bad publicity. Aw, that's nice of you. That is nice of you. Very thoughtful. Bear with me because I have spent the better part of my life since this happened repressing the ever-living fuck out of these memories, but I will do my best to recount as much detail as I can.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
There was a lot that happened. So buckle up, weirdos, because it is about to get spooky. I'm ready, and I believe you. I believe you already. I believe that this happened. I don't even know what happened. I believe it. Yeah. Yeah. So this all started as we were approaching the Christmas holiday during my first semester of college. Oh man, first semester.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Damn, I barely made it through that and I didn't even see the devil. You're like, I'm stressed already. I know. We lived in typical freshman style dorms. One room cinder block boxes with two bare boned bed frames, bodily fluid proof mattresses, a couple of shelves, a desk. I'm really stuck on bodily fluid proof mattresses. Like I know that's correct. That's a correct way of explaining that.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
It's so gross to think about. Do you, are there places where you can like bring your own mattress? I think you can bring your own mattress. If you've ever seen Gilmore Girls, then Yale is one of them as well. We should make arrangements to get rid of the old one.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Which they did not. I would bring my own mattress. BYOM. Yeah. Yeah. Let's,
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
let's go girls okay a couple shelves a desk and a single sink with a medicine cabinet above it the walls despite being cinderblock transmitted nearly every sound from the neighboring room we shared with a wall shared a wall with including the unmistakable whoosh of water moving through the pipes as if they turned on their sink Old pipes, old walls, gotta love it.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Out of nowhere, for several nights in a row, our neighbor's sink would abruptly turn on in the middle of the night. The sound of water running through the pipes was enough to wake even this tired college student or her stupor. Or out of her stupor. Or. I was like. I liked the dramatic pause. You were like, or. Her stupor.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I was like, who's her stupor? Who is it? Out of her stupor. This went on every night for several nights. Despite all of the activity I was hearing, I never actually saw our noisy neighbors until we left our rooms at the same time several days later. The first thing I noticed was how tired she looked, exhausted, to be more precise. I said, what are you guys doing in there every night so late?
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Coloring your hair? I said this more as a lighthearted joke because A, I didn't want to sound like a total buzzkill dickwad, and B, I'd never met her before, and you know, first impressions. Yeah, what are you going to say? Yeah. Did you guys pee a lot? Hey, you guys like always peeing in there?
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
She looked stunned when I said this and looked at me, still grinning, I'm sure like a complete idiot, and said, we haven't been in our room for the past several nights. We've been sleeping in the common room downstairs. What the fuck? That's when your stomach falls out of your butthole. And you say, excuse me? You say, what the fuck?
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
There's a few options of things to say and we just named them. We did. My face fell. I wasn't quite comprehending the words coming from her mouth. She picked it up first. She went on to explain the weird things that have been happening in their room. Starting with their vacuum turning on in the middle of the night unplugged. Hate that. I'd leave.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
That was really cool. Gather around and see this movie. I'm telling you. This is one you're going to want to see. It comes out on April 11th. So if it is already April 11th or past, it won't be. Mikey's saying it's not. So when the time comes that it's April 11th, go to the theater. Watch Drop. Go to the theater. Go to the cinema. It has Megan Fahey. She was in The White Lotus recently.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Don't you dare vacuum my room for me in the middle of the night. Vacuum my room for me, but not in the middle of the night. Not in the middle of the night, no. And it was in the center of their room. No. Hate it. I kind of laughed it off, thinking maybe it was the stress of upcoming finals and that was getting to her. Again, I've never met this girl, who I will now call Mandy.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Name changed for privacy. mandy mandy i didn't really think too hard about this initial incident but apparently the rest of our dorms floor did because word got out about the haunted room on the third floor as it always does as it should is it better that's so fun yeah
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
At this point, the haunting had progressed to the sound of heavy footsteps walking back and forth in the room, even when nobody was home. A few of us decided, stupidly, to do a ghost hunt stakeout one weekend. Oh, hell yeah. That's not stupid at all. That's so fun. And you had to see if the claims... Perfectly safe. Yeah, see if the claims were really true.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Yeah, you gotta see if the devil's in there. Yeah, might as well. Sounds like he is. If the devil's at your dorm room, you gotta find out why. Yeah, you gotta see what he looks like. Like, hey, what are you doing? Yeah. Usually he comes down to Georgia. Why is he doing the dorm room? Yeah, why is he here? So there were a handful of us truth seekers huddled outside the dorm room Friday night.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
And we decided that the first experiment we would do was to sprinkle a layer of sugar on the ground and leave the room to see if any of it would be disturbed. I love that that was your first go-to. Wow. I've never heard of anybody doing that. I would have done flour, probably. Why? I feel like you're going to get better imprints.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
You took a forensics class. But I wasn't there. The sugar. That's funny, though. Genius or stupid? I don't know. Pretty great. I think it's yeah. But we all did our part and arranged a nice layer of sugar on the ground. I took one last look around the room to double extra make sure that nobody was hiding anywhere.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Again, hard to hide in a one-room dorm with literally almost no furniture, but I still peeked under the beds and behind the curtains just to be absolutely certain. Good for you. You gotta make sure. That's the thing. Then we all filed out and closed the door. Within a few minutes, the sound of heavy work boots pacing back and forth inside the now-empty room began.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
We all had our ears pressed against the door, listening intently and also rooted in fear. It wasn't until somebody gasped that we looked down and literally saw the fucking sugar coming back out from under the door. What?
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Said as if somebody on the other side was kicking it back under the doorframe. We waited until... That's petty. That is petty. I kind of love that. Get your sugar out of here. So he's like, dude, we're gonna have bugs. I mean... What are you doing? What are you doing? Doesn't the devil like bugs, though? I don't know. I don't know him. None of us really do.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
i think speak for yourself i mean i don't know now i'm also just picturing as soon as you said work boots i'm picturing the devil wearing like some like cool like combat boots oh some like punk rocker in there we're picturing different things i'm just picturing him in like tims i'm picturing like a like a rocker uh yeah i love that i like it i'm gonna stay with this
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
So we waited until the commotion and footsteps inside the room stopped. Now I'm just picturing many different things of the devil. Not surprisingly, the neat layer of sugar that we put on the floor was completely destroyed and strewn about. If that wasn't horrifying enough, upon further investigation, someone or something had written in the sugar.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
See, this is where flour would have definitely come in handy. It would be clearer. See? That's true. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. She's doing the scientific method with your thing.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
If that wasn't horrifying enough, upon further... Oh, I already said that. I had written in the sugar.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
And she was really good at it. She was really good at it, yeah. And it has a really hot guy in it. Brandon Sklenar.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Hovering over the message, we all peered down to see the word, hi, staring back at us. I'm obsessed! I kind of love that the devil, wearing whatever work boots you think he's wearing, was just like, hi. Hi. I just picture being like...
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
hi or like hi i'm picturing luke uh luke cook from chilling adventures of sabrina that devil oh i shouldn't picture that i choose to picture that choose your fighter choose your devil yeah i choose that one that's what i'm picturing i go i don't even think i could say hi like him i think i would never be soldier enough no none of us could no this devil in my mind is like a little like
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
So I know. What the fuck? Am I right? Insert crying face emoji here. We decided to all file back out and just see if anything else would happen. I'm honestly not sure if we heard too much more after that because I was still trying to process what I'd just seen. But we decided to take one last look and call it a night after we had just been outside of the dorm for a few minutes.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
There, written under the word hi was, I'm Joseph. I love it. I'm Joseph. Hi. I'm Joseph. I love this. I'm obsessed. I feel like I would be dying inside, but I would love this. I mean, we have investigated how many haunted places and had like crazy shit happen, but like never. But somebody writing, hi, I'm Joseph would send me into orbit. Yeah, 100%.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Again, not really sure if the reactions are on me at this point because I swear I had tunnel vision and heard nothing but white noise as my mind tried to grapple with the fact of what was in front of me. I remember us helping clean up the sugar and numbly walking back to our own dorms. How do you just like sleep in your bed that night? Yeah. Knowing one wall away, Joseph like said hi to you.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Joseph is just over there in his boots. Kicking sugar in his boots.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
He was, like, the waiter. The server. The server in the movie...
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
absolutely hilarious one of the best one of my favorite things in the whole movie i forget was the server i think his name is jeffrey self yeah was the server phenomenal he was he made the movie he really did he was so good so yeah go check that out and thank you so much to bum house that was like really cool that was awesome and without further ado these are brought to you by you for you from you and all about you so we got to get into them
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Not too long after that, Mandy told me that she decided to run a voice recorder during the entire night to see if she'd catch anything. At this point, her roommate had moved out, leaving only her in there to deal with this. She said, you're on your own, bitch. You're moving in with Joseph now. She said, you already have a roommate. I didn't sign up for a trio.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
at this point i remained leaving her on her own to deal with this thing she said lisa i got the fucker on recording oh why did he become a fucker all the time i know what did joseph do joseph is just chilling he said hi he's like hi on the tape you can clearly hear family guy playing on the television in the background oh joseph i'm like was that on or no i listened and listened until i heard it
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Let's get into it. Let's talk about some weird ass schools. Shout out to Debbie for putting these together. Deb, Deb. So I'll start, I guess. Yeah, I'll start. This one's just called Listener Tales. I love that. Keep it short and simple. Oh, that reminds me.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
If you guys have photos with your listener tales that you are cool with us sharing or want us to share, make sure you explicitly say that in the listener tale. Otherwise, we won't share them because, you know, respect. Privacy. And all that. Explicit. But be very explicit. Like, it is okay to share these or I want you to share these. And we mean on, like, Instagram. Yeah, like when we post.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Just because sometimes when we mention things in certain listener tales and we're like, holy shit, your cat is really cute. Or like, holy shit, that picture is crazy. Everyone's like, what? But we're never going to share your shit unless you tell us to. So just make sure you say that in writing and all will be good. So this one's called Listener Tales.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
And it says, hey, weirdos, I hope you get a chance to read my tale. It's all about the time I got haunted by prankster ghosts at boarding school and how I think it was your fault. Apologies in advance for any typos. Apologies in reverse.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
my first year of college i lived in the main building and never had to leave as the cafeteria was in my building too i was very pale that year all these buildings have their own hauntings main building haunting this building was where the hospital was run and it has four floors and has a beautiful ornate wooden staircase that made you feel like you lived in a mansion I'm sorry.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
In the same main building, there's one room that is basically a gateway to hell. Okay. I like how casually you said that. Just like basically a gateway to hell. Basically, kind of. I am 100 years old now, so I'm not 100. It's the same. So I am not 100% sure the exact number of this room, but it is a corner room.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Things would be moved when the occupant was out and would fly across the room when they were in. No one joked about the goings-on in this room, and it was always cold." The story slash legend is some hippie opened a gateway to hell and never closed it. It's kind of like unfair that the hippies get blamed. I kind of love that, though. That's so scary. And I totally believe it. No amount of sage.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
We were college kids. We all had sage because we were wannabe hippies. And well, pot was going to clear that room. Now for the priest in the main building. Is he hot and young? Is it a hot young priest?
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Apologies in retrospect. Truly. I'm sorry. All right, let's see.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Like, damn. I'm sorry. Sorry. So I don't know if I can say their names, so I won't. Hey, weirdos. I've taken the liberty of changing my name and my story. Glad we took that out. Not because I think it matters, but because I think it's fun. Honestly, I do too. I like that. This might be my only chance to use the alias I've been developing since high school. Leah Baker. Boring. Yes.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
along with the with being a hospital it was an all-girls school that was of course run by nuns and had a resident priest one of the priests was so evil ah oh he's not a hot young priest he's not a hot young priest everybody danger danger not a hot young priest one of the priests was so evil he would molest the girls and shame them into silence because priests
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
One of these girls was so distraught that she jumped from the roof of the main building and the kitchen building to her death. Oh, my God. This woman in yellow haunts the cafeteria that is in this building. The lunch ladies do not joke about this. And the woman comes and goes even during the day. She will move things on the staff to the point where they have to say, stop it, lady.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
My friend who worked with Shakirti decided to check it out one night.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I love how you go, wait. Wait. Shut the fuck up. I gotta make fun of you. Honestly, I get it. I would have done the same thing. Wait. Shakurity. Yeah, my friend who worked with Shakurity decided to check it out one night. The woman in yellow started typing on the cash register. They noped on out of there and refused to go back to do the rounds ever again. Damn. The theater.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
This ghost is a little girl who is mischievous and likes to mess with the lights and likes to hang out in this little winding staircase that leads to the balcony of the theater. She's very active and shows herself to many. I've never seen her, but the theater teacher would have to ask her to not mess with them during performances. That's so funny.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I think she might have been another suicide and had jumped from the catwalk of the stage. Oh, that's so sad. I want to find this man even if he's dead and kill him all over again. Seriously, I'm going to find this priest. I'm going to fuck his world up. Now for the haunting that my friend, we'll call him Andy, experienced. He decided to do a documentary on the school and the hauntings.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
That's cool. When he was editing his film in the technology lab, the lights and computers would go off and on, and it took him forever to edit. Then when he went to show the film, which was in a theater in the library building, we only got to see the first five minutes. Somehow the film would not play and the lights were not working. Oh, we've had that happen with episodes.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
One episode in particular. Remember that one episode that like it wouldn't let us continue recording.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
That scared the shit out of me. Yeah, that was scary. We all noped out of there. For this documentary, he had invited a psychic to come and walk through the school. The day before she arrived at the school, her apartment smelled like a swamp. The same smell that existed on our campus as we had a pond that ran through parts of it. Whoa. Oh, that's awful.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
The last haunting happened to my security, Shakurdi. Shakurdi! Guard friend. They were patrolling the grounds during winter break. No one was staying on campus and it was deserted. They were in the library building, where we tried to watch the documentary, and saw a man dressed in priest's black cloak and big rimmed hat walk out the door. Fight him. I just gotta chill. Fight that motherfucker.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
He went after the guy into the room, but the man was gone. There was a door in that room going to the outside, but no footprints in the snow. The priest just disappeared. And you guessed it, the guard noped the fuck out of there. Damn, that's terrifying. Well, that is my tale, and I hope it made sense.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
And I hope you keep it weird, but not so weird that you haunt poor stoner kids just trying to have a party. I've pasted pictures of the college in one of the tunnels, but if you Google haunted Bradford College, you can see more mysterious pictures. Oh, I know this college. Definitely Google this college, guys. And they would use those tunnels to get to class sometimes.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
But boring is believable. Street smarts. That's honestly not boring. That is street smarts. And why haven't I been working on an alias since high school?
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Those tunnels are scary as fuck. Not those. Not those tunnels. Not these tunnels. No. Fuck that. Lara. That was a good one. Yeah. Oh, this is a beautiful campus. It is. The most haunted ones always are. I really want to go to there. I want to go to there.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Maybe we will. Maybe. All right. This will be the last one. Last one. And it's going to be The Haunted School and The Hungry Ghost. It's like a children's novel. Yeah. Let's see.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
hey spooky ladies my name is sam and you can please call me sam can i call you lamb nope sam can we call you a game i must start off with the usual i came across your podcast after needing something to take the edge off see i'm a pregnant teacher who is no longer allowed wine or cold cuts and was searching for something to soothe my soul oh i love it i'm glad we could soothe your soul like wine and cold cuts that's a big compliment yeah yeah
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
you both popped into my life and i'm truly thankful to share my days with you teaching through a pandemic morning sickness and now heartburn have been no fun but hearing you both share your humor and knowledge with the world makes it a lot brighter don't stop what you're doing and i hope one day our paths will cross sam yeah i hope so too yeah it was so sweet and at this point i hope your baby rocks because they're probably like hell yeah your baby rocks sam pandemic babies are crazy huh yeah yeah how you doing how's that going yeah
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
P.S. My spooky crotch goblin is due in November. Please know I will be raising not only a strong female, but also your newest group of morbid fans.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Anywho, to my story. Right from college, being a desperate young'un, I accepted a job at an old Catholic school near my college. Hot young priest.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
hot young priest are we this this isn't haunted colleges this is hot young priest except we broke it with the last one yeah yeah well maybe this will be this will make another yeah it'll make up for that well who knows i haven't read it yeah so even though the pay was crop i felt right at home and i was did i say crop even though the pay was crop i think that might have been like my valley girl coming out even though the pay was crop take the 10 to the 4 to the 5 crop
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
i'm gonna start working on it yeah you got to anyway i want to start by saying i'm a silent fan i don't comment or engage with those who do but i listen to your episodes the moment they come out honestly much respect thank you being a silent fan yeah i'm a silent fan of a lot of things i'm a silent fan of almost everything except for ghosts i will The way that I was like.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
so even though the pay was crop i felt right at home i was eager to get my foot in the door flash forward to starting my 13th year of teaching i still love what i do lucky number 13 oh yeah i just need a few more naps and glasses of wine than i used to i also need to specify that i am not catholic not that there's anything wrong with that no but i was hired because who can say no to a spunky blonde who's willing to work her ass off for less than 30 000 a year not this lady nope
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Let's just say they were more than okay with me not converting. I would consider myself spiritual. I believe in God and heaven, spirits. But I also believe in women's right to choose, LGBTQ plus community, and protecting trans kids, gun control, etc. Hell yeah, Sam. Sam, Sam, Sam, Sam, Sam, Sam. Okay, climbing off my soapbox to get to the spooky part.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
The school was really old, run down, but beautiful. And the best thing was it was a church, then a convent, yay for adorable nuns, and then turned into a crumbling school many years later. Then it just turned into a crumb.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
That's scary. Going from a church to a convent to a kid's Catholic school. And then to a crumb. And then to a crumb. To a crumb. So let's just say entering the building gave off a certain feel to it. Yeah. Maybe that was just the mold in the walls, the bats that needed to be caught monthly. But something always felt like it was just there with you.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Or maybe that could have been the many Jesuses on the cross that lined the walls. That was what it was.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
When the building was used as a convent, one unique feature was that it had a tunnel
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
tunnels tunnels in the far corner of the building why the hell would that be you might ask well back in the day when the town's first hospital was adjacent to the coven uh yeah convent i keep saying yeah what you're thinking you're thinking right yeah uh none nuns would use the tunnel to enter the hospital at a moment's notice when somebody was nearing the end of their life they would be called over to provide some comfort and help give last rites a catholic tradition of a special prayer when someone is dying
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Yes. Yeah. I'll never do that. Yeah, no. Random side note. The school had all the original windows, doors, hardware, old and crappy, but cool. And the railings in our school were called nun catchers. Nun catchers? As they were the old style of railing with a long pole and the nuns would be running down the stairs but get snagged by the poles on their long habits. I never knew that was a thing.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I can't. I need to go on a deep dive of like Catholic school shit. Nun catchers? Nun catchers. That's awesome. I think I called them nun grabbers. I like that. Nun catchers. Walking my students down the stairs always felt so cool to think of how many people had walked this building before me and how many nuns were snagged as I caught my teacher sweaters on them. Hell yeah.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
One day I was alone in my classroom during the summer months prepping for the following year. See why they hired me? I'm much older and wiser. And I thought, and I wouldn't be caught dead there during my break. Of course not. Working in my room, I heard the doorbell, yes, an old school doorbell, as we kept our school secure during the day, and you had to be let in if you didn't have a key.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I knew you were going to say that. Yeah. I'm a silent. The things that I listen to. Aside from ghost. Yeah. Silent. Like podcasts. Yeah. Like shows, anything like that. I'm pretty silent. Yeah. Unless I'm just like in there being like. This was great. I loved this. Like that's it. But like very, very. No, I get that. So I appreciate it.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Looking out the window, I saw a FedEx truck. Knowing the office was closed, I went to get the door, as I saw he had a few rather large boxes. I ran down the stairs, my room was on the second floor, signed for the packages, held the door, and said goodbye and thank you to the delivery driver. As I closed the door and turned to go up the stairs, I heard a cupboard slam shut.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
They pull the lunk alarm for Jesus at Planet Fitness. He definitely gets the lunk alarm, right? One set of stairs goes up to the classrooms and the other goes down to more space. The noise came from the downstairs area. I want to shit myself. Yep. This area was underground, but still had very tiny windows on top. It held a multi-purpose room along with our teacher lounge.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
You know, because what says come enjoy and relax with your lunch? In the basement. Yeah, I know. The sound came from the staff lounge. I heard it again, this time a bit softer. I stood like an idiot on the stairs. This set of stairs going up, of course. But I thought I should probably call out in case it was a hungry co-worker.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I should do that before I shit my pants because if good old Carol comes walking up with a salad in hand, I'm never going to be able to come back to work. Yeah. So I called out, hey, Mr. John, is that you? Mr. John? I thought it might have been our custodian as he works during the summer months. No answer. And again, standing like an idiot, I heard it. The sound.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I knew exactly what it was, but I will never forget it. I heard a drawer slide and slam open. Then what sounded like, if you took your hand... placed it on a pile of cutlery, silverware, metal serving spoons, etc., and began to violently shake your hand around. Oh. That was a very good way of describing that.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I know exactly what that sound is. Terrifying. The sound was so loud, it sounded like the drawer itself was shaking loose from the wall. I took one final listen and bolted up the stairs. Yeah, fuck that. Why not just go outside, you may ask? Well, my car keys, phone, and purse were all in my classroom and I needed to go there first. I feel that.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Once to my room, having passed a second ripped Jesus on the cross. Should have pulled the lunk alarm. I closed my door and I called my sister. I needed a minute to muster the courage to bolt. I needed to leave my room, pass the ripped Jesus, and down the same set of stairs to the school code. You should have grabbed the ripped Jesus off the wall. The power of ripped Jesus compels you.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
the power of leg day compels you these quads i would need to turn back to oh i was gonna say rip jesus again put the code in and leave but i was dreading doing that with my back toward the stairs leading to the basement on the phone with my sister i ran down the stairs punched in the code and took the quickest look into the basement before slamming the door behind me all was silent and still except for my heart beating in my ears and my sister on the line telling me i was okay how the hell would she know
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
once out in the parking lot i had another scare as i frantically looked around the parking lot i saw no cars no bikes no other teachers not the custodian not even the goddamn pope had been in the building with me oh no i had been alone in that building oh no thanks ladies for listening oh weird take it away ash but not so weird that you don't do leg day with jesus it's true don't do that
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
So it says, I first discovered your podcast when I was training for a half marathon. Damn. And I really needed something to distract me from the horror of long distance running. I don't blame you. People told me that I would learn to love running. Spoiler alert, I didn't.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I hate that. That freaks me out. I can hear that sound in my head of metal clanging together. And it's very like hospital like.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Like that kind of like the metal drawer. And like they shoved the trays back. Yeah. Like that just freaks me out.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
There was no hot priest in that one. There was no hot priest in that one. Damn. Just a hungry ghost. That's okay. You know. You can't have a hot priest all the time. You truly can't. Bye. Wow. Bye. That was a fun one. That was a fun one. I liked that. The spooky schools was definitely a good choice.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
And we'll be dressed up for the next one. We'll plan ahead. Yeah. We'll make sure we're in costume.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
All right. You heard it here first. We'll be back next month as hot priests. So look forward to that. Look forward to it. And in the meantime, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But it's weird that you, one, don't dress up as a hot priest. Two, that if you are a hot priest, you don't help somebody with their fucking demon shit going on.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Keep it so weird that you're a hungry ghost. Yeah. Live your best life. And... Just keep it weird. Just keep it weird. Yeah. Sorry, I broke. But I love you and I... I don't know. Bye.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
But I did come to love the way you tell stories and roast the crusty panties off the whack-ass perps you talk about on your show. Iconic. Never listen to the haters telling you to change. You did what no other podcast has done for me. You two made me laugh out loud for a whole hour as I shuffled around the track of a dimly lit field house late, late at night. That's so nice.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I love you and thank you for that. Stop doing that late at night.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
okay that sounds weirdly specific let me explain i used to live and work at a new england boarding school tell us which one offline built in the 1800s latin motto a president went there type of boarding school it is in a very rural area so there isn't much to do there besides hang out at the local pub or in the literal fields that's around campus this is one of my favorite beginnings to any story same
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
You give me a New England boarding school from the 1800s with a Latin motto and a president once been there and you can only hang out at the local tavern or the field surrounding said school. Yeah. It's kind of urban legend too. It's delicious. We just love it. Sipped it all up. Love it.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Because I was in my mid-20s, riddled with anxiety, bored as hell, and in charge of the largest dorm on campus, 100-plus underclassmen girls, I needed an outlet. While many might prefer the pub in the comfort of a cold brew ski with the lads, I prefer my misery straight. No chaser. I took to the fields. Literally, I ran long trails around campus and began training for a half marathon.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Unfortunately, boarding school teachers live extremely busy lives. You teach all day. You coach in the afternoons. You have duty in the dorms, making sure the kids get along and, you know, stay alive. You have meetings, clubs, professional development, et cetera, eating into every free hour of the day. That sucks. Seriously.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
We didn't have sick days, and we worked on all those holidays people usually get off, like Memorial Day. This meant that if I wanted to run, I had to run before or after all my other duties. That makes sense. It does. Sorry I scolded you. You're like, I'm sorry. I didn't know your life. I often started my runs at 5 or 6 a.m. and after 8 or 9 p.m.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
This wouldn't have been a big deal if not for one very important thing. The school was very haunted. I'm not exactly a skeptic of the supernatural. I was raised very religious. And while I don't rock with organized religion anymore, I'm still pretty sensitive to what else might just be out there.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Next time somebody comes to my door trying to sell me on a religion, I'm just going to tell them I don't rock with religion. I don't rock with organized religion. I just don't rock with it. That is kind of how I feel. That's exactly how I feel. Yeah. That's all. Yeah. You can. I just can't. Yeah, go for it. Yeah. Just because we don't perceive something doesn't mean it isn't there. Hell yeah.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
When I first arrived on campus, I was quickly informed of some of the most harrowing ghost encounters I'd ever heard. One faculty member spoke about her child seeing a man looking through their window. The little girl described him in perfect detail down to his eye color. What the fuck? Apparently, he came often and never tried to come inside.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
He would just observe what was going on in the living room. My coworker told me that she never saw the man, but she was pretty shaken by the encounter, especially since they lived on the third floor of the building. Yikes. Motherfucker was levitating. He was just floating. I don't like that. Another coworker, it's very Salem's Lot. Another coworker, it's Stephen King.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Another coworker told me that people who stay overnight in the campus health center hear footsteps outside their doors all night. It is a pacing sound that goes away when they look to see who it is. She told me the school nurses believe it's the ghost of past night shift workers helping them out and checking up on the sick kids. I kind of love that.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
That's a nice haunt. So you get it. Boarding school, haunted, spooky, but also the ghosts are nice, question mark? Anyway, back to me, Leah Baker. Alias, Leah Baker. During my runner era, I used to follow the cross-country trail around the fields at night, guided by some sparse campus lights. It was actually very peaceful, and I enjoyed being able to see the stars above.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
On late summer nights, I would watch the lightning bugs dance over the tall grass around me, blinking slowly as if they were soothing me and encouraging me on my way.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Poetic and beautiful. I preferred to run at night because of this, but one day I decided to switch up my routine and run in the early morning. Smart. Switch up your routine. That's very smart. That's when I saw them. A group of boys were playing soccer. It was a little foggy, but I could make out their goofy adolescent forms. You know the type, skinny and all elbows.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
They were all dressed in a similar sort of uniform. As I got a little closer, I saw that the uniforms looked very old-timey. Some of them had hats I'd expect to see on cast members of the newsies. They didn't make any noise, but they all clearly were having fun and running around together kicking a ball.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I was pretty shocked that any teenager would be up at sunrise, let alone a group of them, all while being dressed like Oliver Twist. So I shook my head once and looked back at the field. They were gone. I stopped dead in my tracks and felt chills over my entire body. I was suddenly very cold. Did I just hallucinate? I thought. Honestly, I was so bored I wouldn't put it past myself.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I chalked it up to a weird morning and the fog playing tricks and finished my run. The fact that you saw an entire soccer team. Fog. And then just looked away and looked back and were like, I'm probably bored.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Honestly, though, that makes so much sense being up early in the morning. You're like, yeah, I don't have the wherewithal for that. Because you're like, do I want to investigate this? No. Probably not. No. Not before coffee. No. Soon the temperate fall weather. Oh. We're almost there. That just made me like ache for fall. By we're almost there, I mean two seasons to go. We're so close. So close.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I really lost myself there. You did, but you found yourself at the end. That's what's important. We are not dressed in costume. You are. Honestly, I'm not. We're going to pretend we are.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Soon the temperate fall weather turned to a harsh cold winter as it does in New England. Why, God, why? But we're coming out of it. As a certified weather wuss, I cannot be caught outside the months of November and February. Bundle up? Layers? Never. So when it got too cold to run outside, I moved indoors to the field house. That's where you gals come in. Hey.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
What is more boring than running through countless grass fields, running circles around a dimly lit indoor track? My brain was melting and my podcast app suggested I try a true crime pod called Morbid. Good job, fucking podcast app. Yeah. I gave it a whirl and was immediately hooked. It was actually a guest episode.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
look at that it was good talking about the tale of a badass playboy bunny it was holly i bet oh was it holly madison yeah who got fucked over by the system and men shot 100 that was definitely holly yep shout out to holly yep so anyway there i am doing laps and listening to morbid when all of the all of a sudden the lights shut off in the building uh That's a no for me. That's a horror movie.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Initially, I wasn't that worried. Girl. My school had a 24-hour campus security team that would make the rounds to various buildings. Maybe they didn't see me and shut off the lights, I thought. So when I looped back around to the light switches by the door, I flicked them on and continued my painful shuffle. I had a long way to go. I love that you were just like, I'm going to continue this run.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I'm going to keep running. Hell yeah. That night's run was supposed to be a 10-miler. Yeah. Oh, my God. And just going in circles. For 10 miles. You even wrote cue retching noises. Yeah. Honestly. A couple minutes later, I'm turning the far bend of the track and the lights shut off again. Oh, leave. Get out of there. Annoyed, I shout into the darkness, hey, I'm in here. No response.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
Son of a biscuit-eating bulldog, I think. I love that you thought that. I love that. And flick the lights back on when I get to the switches again. I try not to curse in front of my students, so I have a few colorful non-curses locked and loaded at all times. Once again, a couple minutes later, the lights flick off for the third time. Okay, now I'm scared.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
uh so we're gonna be talking about haunted schools today and so i'm wearing a woodsboro class of 96 shirt that's so i'm just pretending i'm from that class i never liked school so uh my shirt says even baddies get saddies and i would get saddies at school but whilst being a baddie it's true and your time would be baddie my time would be so bad to make you sad i mean the time that i was in class was baddie hanging out was not so baddie then you were a baddie
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
I pause, Ash's voice in my earbuds, and say loudly, Bro, what the hell? No response. Remember the USS Salem? Yeah. is a different kind of cold. That's the, like, truly. Like, we have survived New England winters, and I've never felt that kind of cold. It was just, like, to your bones kind of cold. And it, like, afterwards, too. Quick, too.
Morbid
Episode 658: Listener Tales 96: Buhtz
He's awoken the people to a true issue. Finally, maybe this would lead rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our health care system.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Hey weirdos, it's Ash here, ready to share a little secret. Have you heard of Wondery Plus? With ad-free episodes and one week early access, it's like having an all-access pass to our lighthearted nightmare. So come join us on the dark side and try Wondery Plus today. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Listen, I'm a girly who loves a holistic approach, but I also like science-backed research. You know what I'm saying? So that's why I love Symbiotica. Symbiotica is a supplement brand that I love and I trust. I personally started taking Symbiotica because... I would wake up in the morning and just notice that I was depleted of all my energy sources.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
But since taking their products, I have noticed that I have such improved energy right upon waking up. Symbiotica's supplements are formulated with high quality ingredients. Symbiotica is transparent about how and where they source their ingredients to ensure that you get the best products possible.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Their formulas don't have any seed oils, preservatives, toxins, artificial additives, or any kind of natural flavors. I actually love the taste of Symbiotica. It's not, I feel like whenever I take a supplement, it's like chalky. Not Symbiotica. It just tastes scrumptious. Feel more energized, alert, and balanced with high-quality supplements that work.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Head over to symbiotica.com slash morbid and use code morbid for 20% off plus free shipping on your subscription order. Hey, weirdos. If you guys know one thing about us, it's that we love a deep dive. Well, if you're looking for a limited series that will completely consume you, we've got you covered. Those sketchy texts you're always getting? Sometimes there's something way darker behind them.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Imagine helping your brother land a dream job abroad, only to discover you've trapped him in a nightmare. We're talking armed guards with shoot-to-kill orders and thousands forced to scam others just to stay alive.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Wondery's new podcast, Scam Factory, follows one family's desperate fight to save their brother from a multi-billion dollar criminal empire, where the only way out is to become part of the scheme that trapped you. Are you looking for a wild story that'll keep you up at night? Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
you can binge all episodes of scam factory early and ad free right now by joining wondery plus
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I envy your sick voice, because you sound like Lilo. I sound like...
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
They don't even look stretched out or anything.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Yeah, I love a silk moment. Set. I got to have silk, velvet, or cotton. Hell yeah. Which pretty much covers all bases. I got to have a fabric. In my pajamas, I need a fabric. That's what's pretty important to me. It's top of the list. So we tried or I tried to make these like slumber party themed or like dreams. I did some astral projections. I do believe there's a demon.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I don't like that. Can I interject and be absolutely off topic, but like kind of on topic? Whoa. She said like where the mouth should be. Have you ever seen the inside of a penguin's mouth? Oh, it's scary.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
It's just teeth upon teeth upon teeth upon teeth. And they're all like teeth on teeth on teeth. And they're jagged. Yeah. I saw this video of this girl like being scared to pass by a penguin that she like met on the beach. And I was like, why is she scared? It's a fucking penguin. Because of that mouth. And somebody commented that.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Yeah. But they need like lots of teeth. If you don't know what the inside of a penguin's mouth looks like, please look it up. Anyways, back to these mouths. Google it. What do these mouths do?
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I love that. Steve Valentine? Yeah, Steve Valentine. He's a British-American actor. I feel like that makes sense that he would come into your dream. Oh, okay. He just looks like somebody that would come into your dream. Yeah, he's just like, hey. Can we get a close-up on Steve Valentine in the house? Can we get a close-up?
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Yeah, especially with his mustache. Yeah, you know? With his mustache. Oh, I tried to open Instagram, but I don't have that. His mustache makes it very mysterious. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
That's an Ashkel coffee creation, if you will.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I read these yesterday. And so last night when I was falling asleep, I was like, I kind of want to try it. But I don't, I can't always lucid dream. Like sometimes I just fall asleep and it happens and other times I can't.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Yeah. So maybe you'll figure it out. We're going to get on it. I'm taking this witchy class and like the second part of it, they talk about like astral projecting and I'm sure lucid dreaming will come up there. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I'm a little bit scared though. I don't think your dreams are just dreams, personally.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I feel like our dreams are almost like a higher conscious, but like, we haven't totally figured out how to... figure it all out.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I was like, I actually pay a lot for coffee.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Yeah, I sounded really high there. I'm not.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
It's my cookie butter. She's beautiful. My cookie butter creation that I found on TikTok. I got to get the stuff to make the tiramisu one. Oh, fuck yeah, you do. You need to get like mascarpone or something like that. I love mascarpone. I also need to get a little sifter for the cocoa on top. Oh, yeah, you got it. I'll work on it. Yeah, we'll get there. Maybe for the next Listener Tales.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Same. I also have this weird thing and I don't know what this is, but I have a nightlight in my bathroom and it like flashes like through the colors of the rainbow. Oh, yeah. And if I go into my bathroom at night, I won't step foot in the bathroom if it's on red. And while I'm in there, if it flashes red, I close my eyes until it goes to the next color. Wow. I don't know.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
And I don't care how old they are when they use it. They have one at my house and I'm always tempted to bring it into my room when they're not there. Yeah. I'm like, I should just like take that. It's soothing as hell. It is.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Yeah, I know. It's a tough, I would have to pick between the TV and that, I think.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Yeah. As well. Yeah, we differ there. Yeah, we found that out the other day. I fall asleep to Bravo. Yeah, I can't do that. So it's just like women screaming at each other. Yeah, I can't do that. But I have it on like a low level. Office and Parks and Rec because it's pretty low key. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I know. The way you write is really, really, really good. Write it. Write it. Because you can see everything. Write it. The way you write, it's so easy to visualize what you're talking about. Caitlin, write it. Caitlin, cat. Cat. Write the book. Write the book. Write it.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Yeah, next time I'll be sipping a tiramisu one. Yeah, bitch. But let's do this.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Let's go. All right, so my first Listener Tale is Listener Tales, the dream that forced my mom to seek an exorcism. I love things that force people to seek an exorcism. Me too. It's kind of our thing. Yeah. It says, hey, morbid fan. My name is Lauren, but my family calls me Ren. Obsessed with that. Ren. What a cool nickname for Lauren. I know. I love that. I know.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I've had dreams like not on that level, but I've had dreams similar to that where I've had to like sit up and just like-
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
like fall asleep naturally take a moment to like but that one fucked me up i could not get back and even the next night i couldn't fall asleep yeah that would shake me it fucked me up i've only had sleep paralysis like once and it was in a car when i was little and i was having this like wicked scary dream and i remember like opening my eyes but not being able to move at all but like seeing like the cars pass yeah it was weird
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I don't think I've ever heard that for Lauren before, but I think more Lauren should do that. Yeah. At my sister Lauren. Let's start calling you Ren. Start calling you that. Call her Lo. But I'm an English education major working in a medical coding department to put myself through college.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
And ever since my mom introduced me to you guys a handful of years ago, your podcast keeps me company during long hours at work while staring at a screen doing customer service, wishing to scoop my eyeballs out, and while doing schoolwork. Oh, we've all been there. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you ever still, I mean, you have a lot of deadlines that you have to follow still. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Yeah, for real. I like it. No, that was a good one. You're powerful at night.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Only at night. Only at night. You're powerful at night.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
It's like SpongeBob at night. I don't know what that is, but I'm going to trust. It's just an episode where he literally just keeps saying, at night. At night. There you go. Oh, actually, you would like that. Nosferatu makes an appearance. Oh, nice. Yeah. I dig that. That's when Drew always goes, Nosferatu. Oh, okay. Yeah. Anyway. Anyway.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
All right, my next tale is Listener Tale, The Time I Accidentally Became a Medium. Yiggity yeet. Thank you for that. I like the accidentally part of this. I know, accidentally. Oops. Oopsie. Hello, ladies. My name is, I think it's Emily. Emily. I am a H-U-G-E huge fan. Listener Tales are some of my favorite episodes, and I finally got around to writing one. I love that.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Although I'm not a writer, and there are probably a lot of grammatical errors, and it doesn't help that I feel the pressure of a best-selling author potentially reading my writing. Oh, babe, that's why I have an editor. By the way, I'm about to read the shit out of Butcher in the Run, and congratulations, Elena. Thank you.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Anywho, I'll keep it short and sweet because my tale is a little on the longer side. I timed it and it ended up being around 10 minutes. Attached is my 14-point double-spaced put-a-fa. Random, but every time I hear you guys say that, I imagine a sassy Frenchman saying it in an accent over and over, trying to get somebody to say it correctly. Okay. That's like merch, right? Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
A man with a beret and a mustache. Yeah. And he just has a thought bubble that says, Puttifah! Puttifah! Puttifah! Yeah, I like that. That'll happen. TM. I mean, nope, I already said that. Make sure to scroll to the bottom, to the Puttifah, to see all my little pictures I attached to give some faces to the mentioned names. Oh, that reminds us. Oh, yeah.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Exactly. So if this makes this on the podcast, consider my pants soiled. Love you guys. Heyo. Hope you got new pants. Ash, Elena, ladies. First of all, of course, I need to begin with word vomiting affirmations of love all over you both. Thank you. I love you guys so much. You gals are simply some of the most splendid people in my life. And I don't like having many people around.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
It'll be like eight o'clock on a Sunday night and I'll be like, oh fuck, I have to do my homework. And then I'm like, I don't have homework.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
So the fact that you two are in my ears basically 24-7 says a lot. This is why we all get along here. Yeah. We're all the same. We all have a limit.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
to the people that we can hang out with yeah i'd never been a uh hello i'd never been a huge fan of true crime before discovering morbid but i just wanted to commend you guys for the way that you honor the stories and memories of the victims you choose to cover and in doing so you preserve the memory of the person rather than the tragedy thank you thank you that's what we try to do yeah that's always the aim yeah it's touching to learn about the lives of these amazing people and i feel that they must appreciate that a lot as well wherever their souls are resting
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Oh, that like really, that hit different. Thank you for that. But anyway, my name is Emily, pronounced like regular Emily. And yes, you can use it and all the other names involved. Emily. I'm 25 years old, hailing from the state of Indiana, affectionately known to many as the corn state. We got to tell some people that. We do.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I discovered morbid a few months ago while searching for something to occupy my ears during my grueling 10-hour shifts as a delivery driver at a certain delivery company. Okay. I'm sure I've been caught many times on ring cameras randomly bursting out in laughter at you guys. That'd be awesome.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I continue to listen to y'all as I upgrade from the Bezos Brigade to my first big girl office job as assistant marketing director, where I am currently typing this while making it look like I am actually working. How adult of me. What a badass you are. Now I am irrevocably hooked and have been making my way through all 400 plus episodes anytime I get the chance.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
The shower, the car, when I'm folding clothes... taking my crazy ass dog for a walk, which speaking of, I have a beautiful nine-month-old German shepherd named Gemini. Oh, I love that. Love, love, love pictures attached, obviously. We'll message anybody who shared pictures this time around and see if we can get them out. Yeah, for sure.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
And I just had to bring her up because I bring her up any chance I can get. I feel that. She came into my life when I needed her the most, and I think it's no coincidence that she's a Gemini and I'm a Capricorn, just like another bestie duo that I know.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I don't work on a lot of deadlines. Yeah. I'm kind of against deadlines. You are against deadlines. Yeah. I don't think we're meant for that. We're not meant for that. It's like that Gabby Windy sound I was showing Alina the other day. I'm obsessed with Gabby. I think she's my religion. Oh, when I heard that sound, I said, is that Ash, though?
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
My younger sister is also a Gemini slash Taurus cusp, and our relationship reminds me so much of you two. But anyway, that's quite enough about me. Let's get to the spooky stuff. Never.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
my tale is a little more on the spooky side after all i came to the podcast for the supernatural and stayed for the true crime lol oh i love that it starts a few years ago right around the beginning of the panorama now a little context for the story i grew up very borderline cultish christian i consider myself now to be an incredibly open person that believes in the spiritual but readily acknowledges that none of us know what the fuck is going on good for you man hell yeah
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
So I'm the last person that will ever look at somebody differently for their beliefs or challenge them because ultimately everyone's individual spiritual experience is for them and them alone. Love that so much. That's exactly how I feel. So I wanted to preface by saying I'm not against Christianity and I never will be and I did not want to come across that way by the next part of my story.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Thank you so much for coming to my TED Talk. Don't worry. We're with you. Yeah, we got you. I just graduated college and was living in Minneapolis with two of my bestie girls. We were on top of the world in our brand new three-bedroom apartment, doing nothing but smoking ganja and collecting those good, good stimulus checks. What a time, the pandemic.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
We had all attended the same private Christian university, and we all started to depart from our Christian beliefs at the time. Our community was very comforting, and we all became a safe space for each other to deconstruct from our lifelong systems of belief, which is terrifying, by the way, and if you're currently experiencing it, I see you. Yeah, I can't imagine that.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
It's a lot to veer off from a path that you've been on your whole life. Yeah, especially when you've been raised that way. Yeah. We did start to get a little wild with it, experimenting with a lot more weed and psychedelics. My teenage self is rolling in her grave at the thought that I would ever do drugs. And this ultimately led to some wild spiritual experiences when we would explore together.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
At the start of my spiritual awakening, I had an incredibly visual and effortless connection to the spiritual realm or other dimensions, who knows, and would often dabble in astral projection and receive messages in the forms of visions. For example, one time I astral traveled while in my physical body and I was having a stomach ache.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
As soon as I arrived at my destination, the beings there just started chanting at me to eat corn, eat corn. I was very confused by that. But sure enough, when I woke up, there was a mystery can of corn in our pantry that none of my roommates had bought. Shut the fuck up. And when I ate it, my stomach immediately felt better. I looked it up after the fact, and corn is a natural laxative. Oh, shit.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
You'll feel better. Eat some fucking corn. And I'm obsessed with, it has the juice. He said, I really hope you got that reference. Of course. We did. That reference was my life for a minute. I love that jingle. That's true. Whether or not I had spoken to real beings at that moment, I may never know.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
She was like, don't call me after 3 o'clock to have a creative call. Send me an email. I would rather gouge my eyes out with some dull chopsticks. And I said, is that Ash? It is. The more and more I see her on Traders, I'm like... Are we like, were we separated at birth? Perhaps. Maybe. Well, anyways, I truly feel like I'm hanging out with friends and it makes everything more bearable.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
But one day while I was at the apartment by myself, I had a vision that made me realize I was most definitely, beyond a doubt, connecting with something very, very real on the other side. Sometime before this happened, my roomies and I had started watching a documentary on Netflix called Surviving Death, which is about real near-death experiences and other related things.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
It's super awesome and interesting. Go watch it. In one of these episodes, a medium explained how spirits from beyond try to communicate in whatever channels they can, one of these channels being electricity. So of course, when I'm home alone high as balls and the hallway lights start flickering like it had never done before, I knew what the fuck was up, Kyle.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I didn't have any preconceived ideas about what exactly could be trying to communicate with me, but I wanted to hear it out nonetheless. So I started by saying out loud, whoever is there, blink for a yes, stop for a no. Are you trying to communicate with me? Blinking continues. Are you not trying to communicate with me? See what I did there? Blinking stops. Okay. Oh, shit.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Now we're getting somewhere. Are you someone that I know? No blinking. Do you know me? Blinking starts again. Ooh. Do you have a message for me? Blinking continues. At this point, I wasn't sure if I was actually communicating with something, but I decided because I most easily received messages through visuals, I was going to lay down and try to connect with this energy while I astral projected.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Not really cool. I like that. This is really interesting. The vision started off with a king who was the main character in this story. He was running away from his castle when he fell through an ice-covered lake. He was trapped until his soldiers could retrieve him and they brought him back to a castle.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
The king was bedridden, freezing, and fighting for life as a blur of servants and soldiers came in and out of every door to bring him aid. But then I saw her. A woman approached his bed, and as she approached, I took the perspective of the king. Oh. And I kept hearing the same word over and over. Raven. I have actual chills. I've literally read this before and I have chills.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
A whoom, if you will. I love ravens. Yeah, I love ravens so much. I've been trying to like communicate more with like ravens and crows lately because Hecate rules over them. And I'm like really into Hecate lately. Yeah, that's my girl. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
so she's right over there you just can't see her she is so i got up and as i sat up i began to question the light again are you raven no blinking is raven someone you love blinking starts furiously i tried asking it some other questions but growing continuously in confusion i decided to stop i thanked the energy for their time and i apologized that i wasn't sure what to do with the information
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Later on, though, one of my roommates returned home from a grocery run, and I had the incredible sense that I needed to tell her everything that happened. It hadn't even been five minutes after telling her about the light interaction that we both got a text from our third roommate in our group chat. Another quick tidbit of context.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
My third roommate, Amanda, worked for a program that connected with teenagers in the local area to create a positive community for them with different activities and resources. It was an awesome program. The text we got said that she was going to be bringing over one of her students who was having a particularly rough time in her life and was in need of extra support.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
When I read the message, I had a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach, and I responded, is her name Raven? Yes, was the response.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I've even gotten my fiance into it and he now requests to listen to The Girls while we cook together. That's such a classic thing.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. The amount of desperation I was experiencing was indescribable, like the desperation of a mother who left her baby too soon and was doing anything she could to tell her that everything was going to be okay. The feeling was so intense that I could barely catch my breath, and as I remembered that Raven was currently on her way to our apartment, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Wow.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
No, I think it makes sense. I don't think it's a stretch. I told her about the experience eventually and while she was a little weirded out because she didn't consider herself spiritual at the time, she was very comforted by the sentiment of her mother still being around her. Raven moved in with us a few months later and we all became one big happy family for a while.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Things didn't exactly end on a super cheeky note in the household by the time I moved away, but Raven and I remain close and we chat as often as we can.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I know. I try to tell her every time we talk how proud I am of her and that no matter what, I will always be there for her. After all, I think that's exactly why her mother came to me in the first place. She needed to know that her precious daughter would be okay, that she had people who loved her in her life and that those people would look after her.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I kind of love that. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. And they listen while they cook together. Oh, I really love that. I know, cute. I hope you guys enjoy reading, and if it makes it on the show, I will shit my dick, as my fiancé likes to say. Shit your dick. I went through a period of saying shit my dick. Shit my dick. Yeah, so your fiancé rules. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Today, Raven shares an apartment with Amanda and works as a store manager while pursuing modeling and fashion, and even sews her own clothes. I really mean it when I say I'm so, so proud of her. I'm proud of Raven. Me too. As for me, I haven't dabbled so much in mediumship since that point.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
It reached a point for me where I had to kindly ask energies to leave me alone because I was starting to see and hear things quite constantly, creating a lot of paranoia in my daily life. Yes! I love it!
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
and deb deb you superhero thank you for reading through all of these you're an angel i just know it i just she is she is and with that ladies keep it weird but not so weird that you accidentally channel your future roommate's dead mom while smoking way too much pot and end up talking to your light bulbs or do do you boo boo do you boo boo i love it i like it that was so good damn emily right that was a good one that was really good and spooky super spooky that gave spookiness that was like wholesome spooky yeah
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Which you were kind of ahead of the game telling us what we could and couldn't do with these pics.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Well, please find enclosed a 14-point double-spaced putter for your viewing pleasure. I love it. Let's go. Okay. So this is the dream that forced my mom to seek an exorcism. I love it. And the time she visited my dreams. Ooh, star, star, sparkle. As I mentioned earlier, my mom is actually the person who introduced me to you guys a few years ago. Shout out to your mom. Hell yeah, mom.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
That one I think I'll remember for the rest of my life.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry. As a side note, my childhood best friend and my mom's honorary additional daughter is a mortician and a funeral director and a fellow morbid listener. Bitch. Bad motherfucking ass. Hell yeah. And she handled everything with my mom in our service because she's a freaking badass. Yeah, she is. And an amazing friend to boot. Danielle, if you're listening, I love you.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
You're literally going to make Elena cry. I'm going to cry. I'm literally about to cry. I know. It's such a beautiful story.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I'm thinking of John. I've never seen Elena actually be brought to tears like that. No, I know. I'm thinking of John and this is fucking me up. Did you see me reading the listener tales over there yesterday? I got in like a sad place. Yes.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Yeah. That was really, really sweet. I love that one thing that she says. What is real is the love we share, create, and become.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Also, I just have to say, you guys are fucking... Gorgeous. Beautiful. A beautiful couple that, like, absolutely... Mikey's crying over there. Literally, we got Mikey crying. We're all just crying about our love. The only reason I'm not is because I read this yesterday and cried. But I'm like... You clearly belong together. You can see it in your eyes. You have soulmate eyes.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
And your kids are beautiful. And your kids look so much like each of you. It's wild.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Yeah. Gorgeous. And that touched me on, like, another level. Because in me and Drew's vows, I was like, I'm not saying till death do us part. Like, I absolutely outright refused to say that. And we said, I will find you in every lifetime.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
And we say that to each other all the time. Yeah. And I'm like, no, I will. No, I will. Like, you're not getting away from me. You're not marrying anybody else in another lifetime. So get that thought out of your head.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Look at you being softy. That was really good. No, you guys. That's just like, that hit me. It's the creme of the crop, you guys. It really is. Damn. I love you guys. Thank you for that. I'm holding this back up so I can do the not so weird. Fuck. I know. Thank you for that, guys. You're so pretty when you cry. Oh, my God. You have a pretty cry face.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
And I love you too. I love you, Danielle. So I had the opportunity to go hang out with her and get my mom ready. We wanted to play an episode of your show and chat while I painted her nails and such. One last little girl's day all together. Oh my God, that just sent chills like right through my body. Holy shit.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Thank you. I look... Oh, I just burped. I look crazy when I cry. I have a little bit of a Kim K crying face. No. I was prettier when I cried when I had my Botox, but now what I do... I cried the other day and I was like, oh, it's moving.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
gross it's supposed to oh i know but yeah they're beautiful that was awesome and fascinating and i want to fucking astral project so badly that just fucked me up all of it i know but i want to learn how to astral project like safely yeah you know i got some books that are coming so we'll do it hmu hit me yeah all right guys well as always we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
it weird but that's so weird that you don't check these out on youtube if you're listening these are available on video on youtube which i feel like we never say i know we always forget and definitely keep it so weird but not so weird that your mom has to have an exorcism based off a vision that she had i think you should keep it so weird that you meet your husband in a dreamland dream town and then you spend every lifetime together because that's my fucking plan yes and your fucking plan hell yeah
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
definitely keep it so weird that you channel a message for a future bestie from their mom that's so cool and don't keep it so weird that you look at the mirror and you're gone and everything behind you is not correct or it is correct but like you're not supposed to turn around and it's scary and a scary demon visits you yeah don't keep it that weird but we love you so much we do bye we're going to sleep now
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I wanted to thank you guys for your roundabout involvement in that and creating a show that creates a venue to foster connections like that. Thank you for telling us that. That like... That really made my week. Yeah, that just, I'm like, shit. Yeah. Like, we just make, we just, like, do the show. Yeah. And, like, it's fun and, you know, like, it's something that we love doing together. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
But we don't always think about how it reaches other people.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Damn, that was really cool to hear. It's really cool. Thank you. Anywho, I digress. I've always been, shall we say, sensitive and surrounded by spooky things. If y'all want, I'll write in someday and tell you about my experience working in a haunted old-ass restaurant for years. Please do.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
if you ignore it it's not happening left her for that lmao that being said i believe my sensitivity came from her and her side of the family indigenous hippies from oregon for the win hell yeah hell yeah we just had two different reactions to it and this story may be part of why lol when my mom was in high school approximately circa 1990 she had a very intense dream one night that she was in her choir class and their teacher came in and told them he had cancer and would be resigning from teaching and shortly thereafter passed away
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I don't remember exactly what it was, but she said she remembered something specific that struck her about, like, what he was wearing in the dream. For whatever reason, I feel like it was his shoes, but don't quote me on that. She tells her mom, a devout Mennonite, which, if you are not familiar, is like Amish light. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
it really is amish light and she said she told her mom in passing about the odd dream the next day she gets to class and this man walks in and like a bad case of deja vu he's wearing what he had been in the dream and proceeds to tell them exactly what he had told them in the dream oh that'd be fucking weird that would because already you're like trying to process oh my gosh like he's telling me this awful thing and it sounds like this is like a very beloved teacher
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
And then you're like, why did I know that? Why did my brain know that was going to happen?
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
like on the nose yeah prediction in a dream and like very inconsequential but like yeah strange i once had a dream that somebody i was really close with in high school and it was like right after high school um like something happened and like there was a house fire where they lived and i woke up to the news that there was a house fire yeah see that's weird and like luckily everybody was okay but i had dreamt it the night before and i remember that feeling of just being like
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
And I've never had anything like that crazy happen, but we have things like that that will happen. For sure. And it comes from Ma. Yeah, it definitely does come from my mom's side. So, relatable. Yeah. Well, my mom understandably freaks the fuck out and can't decide if she has superpowers or what the fuck is going on, so what does she do?
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Like any reasonable high school girl, she thinks she's developed the ability to see the future and predict deaths, so she goes and tells her mom. Yeah. My grandmother, bless her heart, is a staunchly conservative woman.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
So her reaction, of course, was to call the church in and legitimately the year of our Lord, 1991, in a rural Midwestern town and being distinctly not Catholic, attempt them to get to exercise my poor mother. Oh my God. She only succeeded in traumatizing her a little bit. Oh, no. No actual exorcism was performed. Oh, no.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
But she did have to speak to the deacon or some other religious higher-ups, I believe, to make sure that she wasn't possessed by the devil himself, TM. TM. I love how you write it. I like that. TM. The devil himself, TM. Wow. I mean, religious drama is real. That's top of the list, religious drama. Yeah, it is.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Now, this second part is my story, but it does connect as it involves my mother and dreams. For context, I was not with my mother when she passed away. My fiance and I were driving to be there and we're about three hours away at the time.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
This led to a few weeks of intense dreams and nightmares regarding her death, which my therapist informed me were totally normal as my subconscious sought closure, however unpleasant, and that they would resolve in time. Thanks, bro. Very helpful. Just kidding. We love him. Just when I was about at my breaking point with this, I had the dream. It started like lots of others.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Should we just make these slumber party themed? Because this is A+.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I was standing in my childhood living room, and my mom was there, looking as she did the last time I saw her, and in her wheelchair, even what she was wearing the last day I saw her a few days before her death. I remember thinking, here we go with this bullshit again, which is odd in and of itself as I'm not prone to lucid dreams at all.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
Then I heard something behind me, and I turned around and there was my mom. Only it was actually her, slightly younger as I remember her from before cancer took her leg, her hair, and her vitality. She was beautiful and whole, and I don't know how to describe it beyond her being so much more real and vibrant than the room even around us. That was my mom, guys.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
She looked at me and didn't say a word, but there was this silent understanding that I was real and she was real, and the dream realm around us wasn't. But it was just the venue where we had to meet in at this time. I literally have goosebumps. I can't stop them.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
She didn't say a word the whole time, just held me on our couch just as she did when I was a kid until I fell asleep and woke up in the real world. The nightmare stopped right then and there. I got the closure I was seeking.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I don't know firmly what I believe about what happens when we shuffle off this mortal coil, but I know wholeheartedly that my mama is whole and healthy and still around in her own way and that she came to be my mama bear just like she always does. I love that. Oh, my God. I love that so much.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
I can't even. Yeah. And after you were having these awful dreams. It's weird that I read this one when I did because I went to see Long Island Medium, Teresa Caputo, last week.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
and the hair herself oh my god the hair i'm obsessed with that queen but she said that there was like a few people that she read in the audience who weren't able to be there when their loved one passed away and she says we're you're not supposed to if you're if you're not there when it happens it's for a reason because you were not supposed your soul wasn't meant to experience that and the person like doesn't didn't want you to they didn't want to like put that on you yeah
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
That's so comforting. It is. To people who couldn't be there because I'm sure that's like a massive thing of guilt. Yeah. Damn. I just thought that was interesting that she said that and then we wrote this. Yes. That is interesting. Yeah. I love that story. I love that you had like the closure that you needed. Yeah. And I love that you called being Mennonite Amish like. I'm obsessed with that.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
That may be lol. I'm literally obsessed with that. And the devil himself TM. That's my favorite. I'm going to use that.
Morbid
Episode 649: Listener Tales 95: Sleepover Edition
We'll just be in pajamas. It'll just be when we're feeling lazy like today. Yeah. But honestly, I'm in my era of matching pajama shit. Pajama shit. I'm in my era of matching pajama sets. It makes you feel better going to sleep. It does. And then you wake up and you're like, I'm a goddess.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
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Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
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Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
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Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
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Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
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Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
And according to Dodson, Melissa brought an invaluable warmth and brightness to the office whenever she was in the building. And after her disappearance, she said the absence of that brightness could be felt by everyone. She said, the staff here are close, like family, and we did all we could to support each other when Missy went missing. Everyone was upset for such a long time.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
She was so sweet and so nice. Oh, it sounds like she just left a gaping void. Yeah, and left like a mark on everybody that she met in such a good way. Yeah. So on the morning of December 1st, 1994, Melissa had breakfast with her mother. And unfortunately, which doesn't sound like it was very like them at all, they got into an argument with each other that morning. And it was over money.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
According to Marianne, Melissa wanted to borrow some money and hoping to teach her daughter a valuable lesson about the value of money. She said no. And that, of course, left Melissa frustrated and she left the house frustrated. Oh no.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
So not wanting to end the discussion in anger before she left for work, Marianne wrote her daughter a short note reminding her that she herself, Marianne, had bowling league that evening. And she said in the note, Melissa, why don't you come to bowling world after school and after work and I'll buy you dinner. Like, I just want to end the day.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Like, let's, let's kind of put this behind us. Yeah. So Melissa went to school that day, left work at 5 p.m., but when she tried to start her car that night, the engine wouldn't turn over. Later during their investigation, detectives were able to determine that the dome light in her car had been accidentally left on while she was at work. Maybe like the door didn't close all the way or something.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
So the car's battery was drained. But fortunately, she and a co-worker were able to flag down a local business owner who gave her car a jump start and she was able to get the engine started. Okay. Okay. Okay. The bowling alley, unfortunately, had no security cameras in the parking lot. You have to remember this is early 90s. It wasn't super common for everywhere to have CCTV.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
But not for us. I think this is only our second episode of 2025.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Like now we'd be like, what? But back then it would be like, wait, they had security cameras?
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
It would be more shocking the other way. And it's also like back then, I'm sure like banks and that kind of place had security cameras, but it's like a bowling alley. It's a local bowling alley. For sure. So because they didn't have security cameras, whatever happened after Melissa parked her car is almost entirely unknown.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
According to statements from witnesses, she was last seen, quote, arguing with a black male at Bowling World around 6 p.m. And that was the last time anybody saw her. A little before 8 p.m., somebody found her keys in the parking lot of the bowling alley and turned them into the cashier at the front desk.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Okay. I was like, am I like six weeks into 2025 being like, happy new year.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
But at that time, nobody noticed that there was actually small splatters of blood dried onto the keys, and nobody at the alley would later remember who had turned those keys in. Oh, no. Yeah. So later that night, when Marianne returned home, she was surprised to find that Melissa hadn't returned home yet.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
However, she figured that maybe she'd gone out with some friends and would come back later that night. It wasn't something she was super worried about right away. But the next morning, when Melissa still hadn't returned, that's when Marianne became really worried. She wouldn't have spent the night out without calling her and contacting her somehow. So she contacted the police a little after 9 a.m.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
to report her daughter missing. Over the course of the next two days, Melissa's friends and family and the local police spread out across Fort Smith looking for her. They handed out over 6,000 flyers with her photograph, but nobody had seen or heard anything. And just having to make that phone call as a mother to report your child missing, I feel like every time I hear that, I'm always like,
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
No, I mean for the listener. For the listener. For the listener. Hello out there, listener. The weirdos. It's definitely... Probably like the 45th episode of 2025. But for us, it's number two. Yeah. So it's still new. It's new for us. Mikey's looking to tell us. It's only January 8th right now. It is. It's early. It's crazy. Early days yet. Mikey said, I don't know. Mikey's doing quick math.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
i can't even bring myself to be in that position i can't that alone no you know and then to hear that no one's seen her there's just no one being able to be like oh no no she's here like i saw her here and knowing that you just had like a run of the mill argument before and just knowing that that's like the last contact you had with her before she just disappeared which is so normal and so like every day
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Of course. Like I said, run of the mill. Like, everybody has argued with their mom in the morning before heading out to go somewhere. Yeah. And her mom did the right thing by being like, you know what? Like, I don't want to end on this note. Let's put this behind us. Meet up later. Like, let's not end the day on a bad note. Exactly. But...
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
oh oh it's so sad at least at least she knew that her daughter saw the note yeah you know i know that is a good thing but then of course she lived with guilt because she was the one of course come to the bowling alley oh god i hate that i know so it wasn't until monday december 4th that melissa's car was discovered in the parking lot of the bowling world after an employee realized that the keys had blood smeared on them finally and bore the name missy on the keychain
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
More importantly, there was also a pool of blood found near the car and one gold earring and a hair clip believed to have belonged to Melissa. Which I'm like, why did it take people that long to realize that that was there? She was parked in like the corner. The far corner. The far corner. So I think that had a lot to do with it. But I was like, damn investigators. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
But when they did discover all that, they cordoned off the area and they started taking samples and processing the vehicle for evidence. Until that moment, Melissa's case had actually been labeled a runaway. Shocked. Crazy. But the discovery of the blood and the personal item shifted the focus to a potential kidnapping at that moment. They still didn't think that she was murdered or anything.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Several police officers contacted the employees of the bowling alley and the customers who were known to have been there that night, but... This is interesting. One person recalled hearing what sounded like a young woman's voice shouting for help at one point that evening. But they said they couldn't be sure what they heard and nobody else remembered anything. I never get these. Like, I don't.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
I'm like, you heard someone yelling for help? Did you say anything in the moment to anyone else? I think it's so easy to talk yourself out of what you heard in the moment. Oh, for sure it is. Like, I think I've probably even done it. And hopefully, like, actually, like, it's been something where I talked myself into what it actually was kind of thing, you know? Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
And it's easy to do it from a, you know, from hindsight kind of thing and from like looking at it from an outside point of view. But I always just think, and I'm like Uber, and maybe it's because we do this. Well, now I think my focus has shifted so much or my perspective has shifted so much because of this. Because I'm like wicked on Uber. on like high alert.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
So if I hear something that I think is somebody yelling, I will, I always say something to somebody just to be like, did you hear that? Like, am I going crazy? Like, I always like to know that I'm not the only one hearing it. No, I think doing this has made us hyper aware.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Honestly. Yeah. There's been points when I'm like, we like kind of spiral sometimes. I heard a coyote in the woods the other night and I was convinced that a woman was in the woods. That's
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
like being abducted and drew was like that's absolutely coyotes and i was like should we like call someone though he was like ash that is 100 he's like we are not calling someone for coyotes i was like okay okay back to the story though two weeks later fort smith police arrested a local man larry landrum on suspicion of sexual assault and a string of other crimes unrelated to melissa's disappearance landrum would later be convicted for the murder of another young woman in arkansas
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
lucille hasler well so they probably thought they had their guy yeah at a loss for productive leads investigators hoped that his arrest would be the break that they needed to find melissa or at least get some kind of answers because you know usually people like that are not associated with other great people yeah criminals no criminals his body language and evasiveness during the interview also raised a lot of red flags and the results of his polygraph examination showed deception
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Today is the 23rd. That was Mikey letting you know today is the 23rd. It is. But for us, it's the 8th. There you go. Which means it's David Bowie's birthday. Happy birthday, David Bowie. Happy birthday, David Bowie. Actually, okay, perfect segue. I was watching Real Housewives of Beverly Hills last night. Thank you. Love it. And Garcelle Bouvet's son is modeling.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
But they were never able to collect any evidence linking him to the crime. Oh, that's frustrating. Every lead that they get in this case is so frustrating because it falls apart so quickly. Or it's like the lead up and then it just like completely fizzles out. It's rough. Yeah. So a week later, on December 21st, Fort Smith police held a press conference to provide an update on the case.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
And at that time, they disclosed that Melissa had last been seen arguing with a man in the parking lot of the Bowling World on the night that she went missing. The individual was described as a, quote, black male, probably in his early 20s, with short hair, a medium build, and approximately six feet tall.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
After three weeks of dead-end leads and very little evidence, the local authorities were starting to express their concern that something pretty terrible could have happened to Melissa. Yeah, the kidnapping angle is seeming less likely at this point. Yeah, definitely, as time is going. But they assured reporters that they did remain committed to the case.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Sergeant David Overton said, It's becoming frustrating, but we continue to look for quality leads, and we hope to still find her alive. But again, when that much time goes by, it becomes less likely. Yeah. And one thing about this case is, like I was saying, like they dropped everything.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
There were other cases being worked on at this point in time and multiple police officers dropped those cases that were like obviously important, but of lesser importance. Yeah. And everybody committed their time to finding Melissa. Oh, wow. So by that time, two large full-color billboards had been donated in town showing a picture of Melissa alongside the number for Crimestoppers.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
And the Fort Smith Bank was offering a $30,000 reward for any information that would have led to her safe return, but neither yielded productive results. That's so crazy to me. Which is crazy. Yeah. That's a big reward. So $30,000 in 1994 or 1995 would be about $64,000 today. So almost more than double. Damn. That's crazy. That's crazy.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
A few weeks later, on January 13th, 1995, investigators got the break that they'd been waiting for, but it definitely was not the outcome that anybody was hoping for.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
At about 9.30 a.m., two hunters in Ozark, Arkansas, about 40 miles from Fort Smith, reported to the Franklin County Sheriff's officer that they had been walking through the woods and they came upon what they thought was a mannequin lying face down in the woods, about 30 feet from the main road.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
According to the hunters, they had actually been out in those same woods and walked the same exact road the day before, but they didn't recall seeing anything at the time.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Close to a month. That's interesting. Yeah. Detective Ryder and his team, along with several crime scene technicians, went out to the spot in the Ozark National Forest where Melissa's body had been discovered. And while they couldn't be positive it was Melissa at the time, they were reasonably confident that they had found their missing person.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
And she would ultimately be conclusively identified through dental records. Oh, that's awful. Yeah. Melissa's body, this is so sad, was lying nude in a muddy area. She had a non-fatal wound on the side of her head from what appeared to be a blow from a heavy object.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
And based on the location, Ryder and the other investigators theorized that the killer was probably local or at least somebody who had frequented the area often enough to be familiar with this particular section of the forest. So possibly a hiker or a camper, somebody like that. Yeah. As they surveyed the crime scene, investigators also noticed something strange.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
And she was like, oh my God, like there are like so many great models of like during my time. It was like Naomi. It was Iman. It was, who else did she name? Oh, is it Beverly Johnson? Yeah, yeah, Beverly Johnson. And he goes, I don't know any of those people. Which, like, he wouldn't because he's super young. But I was, like, even I was, like, oh, my God. It really hits you in the head sometimes.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
There was a human-sized indentation in the earth behind two large rocks just several feet away from where her body had been discovered. So they theorized that the killer had actually initially placed the body behind the rock after the murder occurred, like probably closer to when it occurred, which would explain why hunters hadn't seen her the previous day. So he moved her? They think that.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
He did move her. What the fuck? There's two sides. There's some people who think he moved her and then we'll talk about what the other people think. Because why the killer would have returned and moved the body about 20 feet was a total mystery. My only theory is that they were feeling some kind of something about the fact that she hadn't been found yet. Like stranger things have happened. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
But I don't know. There were also visible finger marks on her wrists where the killer grabbed her body and dragged it from one location to the other. If the killer moved the body... Then they, I think they did so because they were frustrated that she hadn't been found yet. I was actually just thinking about what I had just said.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Yeah, I don't think there was, I want her to be found because you don't leave your murder victim nude, you know, in the middle of the forest just be like, oh, I feel bad. I want them to, no, I think they wanted her to be found. They just didn't want to be found themselves. I agree with you. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
On the other side of things, some investigators believed that it was equally possible that animals in the forest had moved the body. But there was visible finger marks on her wrists from dragging. Right. And that would be... That'd be tough, I think, for animals to move a full body. Yeah. I mean, it's happened. I suppose. But usually it's pieces of a body.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
I hate to be that crass. I know it's gruesome, but it's just reality. Yeah. And I don't know. I feel like you would be able to tell. Well, and you would be able, obviously, like you've done autopsy, so you know. Yeah. They can tell the difference between fresh finger marks and finger mark indentations that actually happened.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Which it sounds like they were saying this looks like it was more fresh. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Jinx. Jinx.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
State Police Lieutenant Dale Best said, we believe the body had been moved. It looked like by animals. We did find the location where she had been in the wooded area, and it looks like she'd been there for quite some time. Now, this is also just coming to me in the moment.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
On the other side of things, I wonder if they said that it was animals who moved the body, because they're not going to want to sit there and say that the killer was in those woods, like right under their noses a few days ago.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
When they can't find him. Like he went there twice. So it's easier to say that animal. It is easier to say than, like you just said, admit that he came back and had free reign to move the whole thing.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
You know? Who knows? Who knows? But just a day or two earlier, and this will give you chills, this freaked me out, and it's just awful.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
two days earlier or sorry just a day or two earlier an anonymous caller had left a message at the fort smith major crimes unit and an older woman with a thick southern accent can be heard saying go ahead and tell them what you found and then a younger voice which was probably male they said can be heard saying no i can't and then the call just disconnected what just a day or two before melissa was found melissa's body was found
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
It really does. Like, what? It hits you in the head. Because at first I was, like, are you fucking kidding me? And then I was, like, oh, you're, like, he's not even in his 20s. Like, why would you know? I mean, you know, why would you really know those people, I guess. It's when, like... It's when you have to answer to children when they're like, did you have this when you were younger?
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Yeah. In the woods that day when they did finally discover her, Detective Ryder couldn't help but wonder if somebody had found Melissa's body before those hunters did, but didn't want to get involved. I think that is absolutely a possibility. And they never were able to figure out where that call came from or who it was. Oh my God. This makes me so mad. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Or I should say no other information came out about it. Yeah. But other than the body in the mud and the human-sized impression in the dirt behind the rocks, the scene was devoid of evidence or anything unusual that might have helped point them in the right direction. And her killer took her clothing and her jewelry. She was found with nothing. Wow. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
There was no sign of her clothes or personal items anywhere. Technicians did take samples of the soil and the natural debris from the location, and Melissa's body was then moved to Little Rock to be autopsied by the state medical examiner. In his autopsy report, he listed the cause of death as asphyxiation by strangulation and noted that leaves and soil from the area were found in her airway.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Indicating that she had, quote, been strangled face down and she inhaled debris from the forest floor. So she, this is brutal. And she was killed out there. Out there, yeah. She was brought from one location to the other. Because I figured she was killed somewhere else and brought there. No, it sounds like she was killed in the forest. Holy shit. Which is horrifying. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Based on the evidence collected during the autopsy, investigators concluded that Melissa's killer had, like we were just saying, abducted her from the Bowling World parking lot and then taken her to that area off the logging road. She was also sexually assaulted and then strangled.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
So the news of the discovery of Melissa's body in the Ozark woods came as a shock to everybody who obviously were out there doing the work, passing out flyers, all the while hoping that she would be found alive. But for some, it was a disappointing end to a frustrating mystery.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Fort Smith detective Clay Thomas said, I hate to say it, but finding her body was the first break we've had in this case. At least it gives us a direction. Before this, we didn't have that. So I guess you can. I mean, at least there was that. It's like it's such a double edged sword because obviously the aim was to find Melissa alive and bring her home. This is the last thing you want to find.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
But at least finding someone's body can give you anything, you know, like it gives you any because before that you're just kind of blind, especially with no security cameras. You know, this isn't the time of like digital footprints and shit. Right.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
And you're like, not only did I not have that, there wasn't even the capability to have that. Like we were talking about because like Roblox is a big thing among like children right now. But my children are not allowed to use it.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
And for her family to actually have a place to go visit her where they know she's laid to rest like that, which again, means a lot to the last thing you want to happen, of course, in these scenarios. But I'm glad they were at least able to have something to go on at this point. It's just awful. It is. Reverend Ed Sauce.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
I think it's Saucier from the family's church conveyed similar sentiments telling reporter this is a difficult time, but the family feels a little relief and finally knowing something. Yeah, because I imagine that the unknown must be just completely unbearable. Because we've said it before, your mind fills in the blanks.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
And a lot of times you're coming up with somehow even darker things sometimes. Absolutely. But unfortunately, both John and Marianne Witt passed away in 2004 and then 2011, respectively. So they never got the answers that they just waited the rest of their lives to hear. Oh, that makes me so sad. They never got it.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Now, in a city of nearly 300,000 residents, Fort Smith obviously had its fair share of violent crime. In fact, around the time that Melissa Witt disappeared, there were a number of other young women who either disappeared or were also murdered.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
In 1995, just nine months after Melissa was killed, another Fort Smith woman named Lori Murchison went missing after she was released from jail on a public intoxication charge. Damn. Just vanished into thin air. Those are always the scariest, man. Yeah. Oh.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
In 2000, a man named Jonathan Cole was convicted of her death, and at the time, he was already serving a life sentence for the 1997 murder of a 13-year-old Fort Smith girl whose remains were also found in Oklahoma.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
There's a lot in life that feels like it should be guaranteed, but it just isn't. Things like your friends being on their way when they text you LMW or getting out the same number of socks from the dryer that you put in. AT&T is introducing a new guarantee, the AT&T Guarantee, because there's a lot in life that's not guaranteed.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
The most alarming of these incidents occurred on June 9, 1995, when 6-year-old Morgan Nick disappeared from a Little League game in Alma, Arkansas, just 20 miles from Fort Smith, so not far at all. Morgan had gone off with some friends to catch fireflies, which just absolutely ruins you. She was last seen standing by her own parents' car, talking to an unknown man before she disappeared.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
A few weeks before her disappearance, there were actually two separate incidents of attempted kidnappings in the area, including one where a man tried to pull a four-year-old girl into his own pickup truck in Alma. and another in which a man tried to abduct a nine-year-old girl from a convenience store in Fort Smith. Holy shit. Yeah, it was a dangerous area. My god.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
uh but but yeah they're not allowed to use it and they will never be allowed to use it and uh fuck roblox i think there's a bunch of predators there but that's a story for another time but they had brought it up because now they feel uh like they're fine with it yeah they understand the reasons and they're totally fine and they had brought it up at one point about like one of their friends got to use it and they were just telling me some story and then they were like did oh did you get to use roblox when you were
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Now, despite the obvious difference in their ages, investigators at the time did consider that Melissa's killer might also be responsible for the attempted kidnapping of the girls in Alma and Fort Smith, and the disappearance of Morgan Nick. Oh, my God. Scary. That's horrifying. Scary.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Despite the surprising number of assaults, attempted abductions, and murders of young women in this area, investigators on Melissa's case had pretty much nothing to work with, very little to work with, and even less luck when it came to finding leads.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
In June of 1995, they set up roadblocks in the area, Arkansas State Police did, in the hopes that a passing motorist might have seen or heard anything that could lead them to help find Melissa's killer or help them find Morgan Nick. Lieutenant Dale Best told a reporter, "...we will follow leads until we've exhausted them. Somewhere out there, there is that one lead.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Somewhere, a person knows this suspect. The information is out there if we can just reach out to the right person and get them to call." But despite their best efforts, the roadblocks turned up zero useful leads. Which is nuts. That's crazy to me. That many girls going missing, ending up dead, like, attempted kidnappings, and nobody knows anything. That's the thing.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
They're not, like, these people who are doing this are not that smart. No. No. Like, they know people. They've said things. They've done things. Like... Come on. And people just don't want to get. People don't get involved. People don't want to get involved, especially in like smaller towns. Oh, yeah. You see it so much more often. It's a very different mindset.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
There's a whole like, you know, set of small town politics that comes into play. Yes. Big time. That's a perfect way to say it. It wasn't until nearly a year later, in April 1996, that investigators finally got their best lead in Melissa Witt's murder case.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Among the stronger suspects in her murder was a local man named William Taylor, who Detective Ryder described as somebody with a quote, "...history of sexual abuse and violence toward women and young girls." But the problem was after warrants were issued for his arrest in September of 1995, he went on the run and law enforcement officials hadn't been able to find him.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
But finally, in April of 1996, they used phone records to track him to Mulberry, Arkansas, and he was finally arrested on those 95 warrants. Good. According to Ryder, quote, Oh, shit. Yeah. Unfortunately, investigators were never able to connect Taylor to Melissa Witt's case or the Morgan Nick case.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
He was only one of a handful of suspects who investigators focused on very intensely after the discovery of Melissa's body in the woods. The earliest suspect was actually the Good Samaritan who helped Melissa after her car wouldn't start on the night of her disappearance.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Under the circumstances, the timing of his appearance was pretty suspicious to investigators, but that man was interviewed several times by investigators and ultimately cleared. At the time Melissa's body was discovered, anyone with a criminal past and connection to Melissa, no matter how trivial, seemed like a promising suspect. Yeah, of course.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
But as the years passed and the case evolved, those early suspects were pretty much more than likely just pretty desperate grasps at finding any leads. Yeah, I mean, they had to. They had to. They had to go for anything. When you don't have anything, you have to chase down what you can. You do.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Since then, several other suspects have emerged who quickly became a focus of the investigation and are actually far more serious than the Good Samaritan and Roger Wood. Yeah. Like, you understand why they chase them down. Of course. But these next people we're going to talk about are actually, like, make you scratch your head a little. Okay.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
In 1999, Marcus Blair, a Fort Smith reporter, was covering the crime beat for the Times Record when he came across an interesting story from a Texas paper about a man named Larry Swearingen. At the time, Swearingen had been arrested for the murder of 19-year-old Melissa Trotter, who he was accused of sexually assaulting, strangling, and dumping in the Sam Houston National Forest in Texas.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
So literally the same exact thing. Same exact thing. Even dumping the body in a national forest. And same victim profile. Same victim profile. And actually, if you look at a picture of Melissa, of both Melissa's, they bear a striking resemblance. When Blair brought the story to Detective Ryder's attention, which like, again, see something, say something, we love to see it.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
younger mom and i was like we didn't even have an ipad i was like babe you said we didn't even know what a tablet was not only that we didn't have the internet when i was your age the only tablets we knew of were in the fucking ancient pyramids now your ribs hurt I cracked myself up. I said, not only did Roblox not exist, the internet didn't exist. They were still working on it.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
The detective felt like he had finally gotten a break in the case that he'd been desperately seeking. Yeah. Yeah. And they do look a lot alike. They look a lot alike. When you put them next to each other. And around the same age. Yep. Unfortunately murdered in the same manner, assaulted. Placed in the same dumping locations. Or similar dumping locations. Yeah, like forest.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Things looked even more promising when Ryder discovered that Larry had been in Arkansas visiting his grandparents just days before Melissa went missing. Oh, come on. Add that to the fact that he had a history of kidnapping and sexual assault of women, and he was starting to look like a pretty strong suspect in Melissa's case.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Now, despite these coincidences, very strong coincidences between the cases, Swearingen maintained his innocence in the Witt case until the day of his execution in fall of 2019.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
For years, investigators tried to get him to cooperate with an interview and sought any evidence that could tie him to Melissa's death, but he refused to speak to them and they were never able to produce anything of substance. He feels like a really good suspect to me. He does. And the fact that he refused to speak about it, just wouldn't talk about it, and was like, I'm being executed anyway.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Yeah. Like, what the fuck? Yeah. Another prominent suspect in Melissa's abduction and murder was convicted rapist Travis Dale Crouch. At the time of Melissa's disappearance, he was working as a handyman at a church camp not far from where Melissa's body was discovered. Wow, okay. A fucking rapist? Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Working at a church camp. Awesome. And it was not far from where her body was discovered. A convicted rapist working at a church camp. Yeah, fantastic. Great.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
He had grown up in Ozark and spent the late 1980s riding around the country with several motorcycle gangs before being sent to prison in the early 90s for stabbing a man in Minneapolis. In October 1994, he was released from prison and returned to Ozark to live with his parents.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Having grown up in the area, he was very intimately familiar with the region, and he had actually been seen driving in the area of the bowling world at the time of Melissa's disappearance. In interviews with law enforcement, he has no alibi, he had no alibi for the night that Melissa went missing, and couldn't account for his whereabouts during the weeks that followed.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
oh shit yeah in 1998 investigators took hair fiber and stain samples from the car that he was driving at the time but the test results were inconclusive oh i fucking hate that otherwise he has denied playing any role in melissa's death But again, he also looks like a good one. Another strong suspect. In 1997, he was convicted of sexually assaulting a 20-year-old woman in Broomfield, Colorado.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
And in this case, he kidnapped the woman in her own car and drove her to a remote location in the mountains where he violently sexually assaulted her. This victim was able to escape after he passed out in the front seat. Oh my God. And at that time, she obviously reported the assault to police. As of now, he still maintains his innocence and is serving a 64 year sentence in Colorado. Holy shit.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
I did not have a computer and tablets were not a thing. Tablets were in the pyramid space. Did not exist. So, no. Did that? Nope. I did not have to... Did that blow their fucking minds? What? Wow. And there's been times they've asked me if pictures were in color when I was little. That's such an insult. And I was like, okay... Yes. All right. I did have color.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
But maintains his innocence as far as the Melissa Witt case. With each new suspect that emerged in this case, it seemed like investigators were getting closer to finding the identity of Melissa's killer finally, but they were never able to make any actual case against any individual.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
But there was always one man that many investigators strongly suspected of involvement in Melissa's murder, and more than any other suspect, he had the criminal history to justify their opinions.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
In 2000, detectives in Arkansas arrested Charles Ray Vines. That name might sound familiar. Yeah. He was arrested after he violently attacked a 16-year-old girl, breaking into her home, raping her, and almost killing her. Holy shit.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Not long after that arrest, the investigation uncovered additional evidence that proved he was the notorious serial killer that the press had dubbed the River Valley Killer. Oh, okay. He was responsible for the brutal killings of 89-year-old Lily Jones in 1993. I was like, why did I know that name? And the murder of 58-year-old Juanita Wofford two months later.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
A little over a year later, a local Fort Smith resident, Danny Bennett, confessed to those murders and was actually sent to prison for them.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
But whatever relief that brought was short-lived, because in August of that year, while Danny Bennett was sitting in jail, or prison rather, 74-year-old Ruth Henderson was murdered, and the killing and crime scene were remarkably similar to the murders of Jones and Wofford.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
So the murder of Ruth Henderson was determined to have been committed by the same killer and authorities were then forced to let Danny Bennett go. It wasn't until five years later when Vines was arrested for this assault on the teenage girl that investigators finally started connecting those previous cases to him and he was arrested.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
After his arrest, he made a deal with the prosecutor's office in which he agreed to provide details of his previous murders in exchange for their agreeing not to pursue the death penalty, at which point he confessed to the other murders. Holy shit. Yeah. He had lived in Fort Smith for many years, including the period that Melissa Witt disappeared and was killed in.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
An investigator strongly suspected him of being Melissa's killer. But when he was directly confronted about the murder after his arrest, he denied abducting or killing Melissa. Given that he had confessed to killing the other women, it really wouldn't make a lot of sense for him to deny Melissa's murder if he was responsible. But law enforcement still remains suspicious.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
According to Rob Allen, who was one of the FBI agents who pursued the case in 2019, he said, Oh. So that's interesting. That is very interesting. The report about the bowling league shirt is obviously circumstantial at best, but it was just one of several things about Charlie Vines, Charles Vines, that made him a strong suspect.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
He worked about eight minutes from where Melissa's body was discovered, was known to be very familiar with the area. Like I said, he lived there most of his life and was very familiar with the logging trails in Ozark. Which not a lot of people are.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Well, because to them, our generation was born in the 1900s. Oh, they say that all the time. Like, damn. Yeah. Damn. Like, well, you're from the 90s. And they love to say you're from the 1970s. And I'm like, no, I'm not. No, I'm not. I'm not even from there. Yeah, Mikey's like, fuck you guys. Mikey's like, I'm from the 1970s and what of it?
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
In 2021, 27 years after Melissa's murder, an investigatory team of FBI agents and local law enforcement officers were sent out to the area where Melissa's body was discovered in the Ozark Forest, and they brought several tracking dogs with them. And despite having nearly three decades having passed, those dogs located an old mattress in the woods with Charles Ray Vine's DNA on it. Shut the fuck up.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
fuck up as well as several old cambridge cigarette butts containing dna what and this is crazy when the original investigators processed the scene in 1994 when melissa's body was found they located several cambridge cigarette butts right near where her body was discovered This, again, this feels like it's it. Feels so strong. Yeah.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
He was ultimately convicted and sentenced to three life terms for the murders of Lily Jones, Juanita Wofford, and Ruth Henderson. But despite the best efforts of FBI and local law enforcement, he refused to talk on the record about Melissa Witt. And he died in prison in September 2019. And he is a disgusting looking man, just so everybody knows. He is gross. He's heinous.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
So as of 2024, Melissa Witt's murder still remains unsolved. If you have any information regarding the murder of Melissa Witt, you're asked to please call the Fort Smith Police Department at 479-709-5116, or you can email them at info at fortsmithpd.org. This is just such a frustrating case.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Such a frustrating case because every time they felt like they got close and that they had their guy, it was just that the person wouldn't cooperate and they didn't have anything else to hold them there on that or to completely, you know, seal the deal. It's like there's a couple of really good...
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
yeah like i feel like he's in there for me charles ray vines and i would say larry larry yeah larry swearingen are probably those are my two and i was really stuck on larry until i found that uh the cigarette butts charles the kind that charles ray vines smoked were right near the body that's Very, very interesting. And an old mattress with his DNA on it.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
It's like, why was there an old mattress out there? Yeah, and that's the thing. It's like, what the fuck? Yeah. Bizarre. Yeah. And just such a tragic, tragic case.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
The fact that her parents died not knowing. Yeah. Not having any answers of what happened to their 19-year-old daughter. No, that makes me sick. Who had everything going for her. Yeah. Everything going for her. She came from a good family. She was beautiful. She was well-liked. She was going to be a dental hygienist. Involved in her community. Doing the damn thing. Yeah. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
And just went to the bowling alley to hang out with her mom one night after work. That makes me sick. So sad. So guys, if you have, if anybody listening has, knows anybody with any information or if you have any information, again, that the number that I provided and the email, you can submit it, submit an email confidentially. And again, submit a tip to that number. Confidential.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
But I'm always like, can you not like send me further back into time? Like, I'm like, you're already like, they're already dogging me for being born in the 1900s. And then they want to make me even. I'm like, all right. Yeah, that's rough.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
I want it to happen. I know. I'm glad that we did an unsolved case at the top of the year.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Let's start the year with some fresh ears on it. Let's get it solved. But you know what? If the lady of the dunes, the boy in the box... The Somerton Man, if all those things can be solved, I mean, decades and decades and decades later, this can be solved. But yeah, no, I completely agree with you. And so guys, remember, see something, say something.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
We love you. Be nice to yourselves. Be nice to yourselves. And keep it weird. weird but not so weird that if you see something you don't say something and not so weird that if you have a tip you don't submit it because you could help a whole entire family and to get justice for a wonderful woman who was killed by a terrible monster Thank you.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
At least give me an accurate, give my accurate date. I know.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
My favorite is that your youngest thinks that I'm older than you. Oh, all the time. Because I'm taller. And they ask every time.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Is Chi Chi older than you? I'm like, no. No, I am 10 years younger. The kids just equate taller.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
With older. It's so weird. I mean, it makes perfect sense, but I'm like, no. No. No, I'm so much younger than mama. Damn it. So much younger. But honestly, at this point, I wish I was older. Drew is going to turn 30. In the 30 club. He's about to join the 30 club. And I said to him last night, I was like, does that feel like weird? Like, are you like mourning your 20s at all?
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
And he was like, fuck no. He was like, I am so excited to turn 30. Honestly, as he should be. And I felt kind of jealous. Yeah. I feel a little bit jealous of him that he's turning 30. But you get the anticipation of it. I know. But I'm not going to be 30 for like another year and a half. Yeah. That's going to fly by, babe. I know. Let's hope. It will. I'm determined to make it fly by. Yeah, same.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
The AT&T guarantee means connectivity you can depend on, deals you want, and service you deserve, or they'll make it right. Visit att.com slash guarantee to learn more. AT&T connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com slash guarantee for details. Have you ever grown tired of searching for your favorite movies and TV shows across numerous streaming accounts?
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Retweet. Yeah, if you heard me earlier crying as I was laughing, that's because I sat here and I talked to Elena. We're just having like some banter, okay? It's been a minute. It's just, you know, New Year. New Year, same us. But maybe not the same because I left a lot of me on the floor. You did. On the cutting room floor. On the shower floor.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
i got if you and it's going around so i'm sure a lot of you have probably faced this in the past couple weeks the neurovirus is going around wash your motherfucking hands yeah wash your hands man i don't know if i don't know if i got the neurovirus or if it was like a food poisoning thing because i did eat like a sketchy burger um you know who i am a captain crunch slurpee girl yeah a faux faux faux
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
the violence that was inflicted upon me. And I literally just been sitting here telling Elena, I'm drinking colostrum. So I'm like, I'll never get sick. I have colostrum and it's an immunity booster. You've all been so sick and not me. Yep. It's true. That same day. Literally, it was like a day later. Like if that, the universe said, bitch, check yourself before you wreck yourself.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Actually, let me wreck you. The universe said, oh yeah?
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
oh yeah i died for like three days and my ribs are still hurting this was like saturday night it's wednesday now my ribs are still hurting i know that's crazy the violence with which i yacked damn yeah i'm still recovering but you know what i woke up this morning i chose myself i had a little pep talk with lux my cat yeah i ate my breakfast it was great it was wonderful
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
We're trying to, you know, I like resolutions. Some people hate resolutions. I like them. I've never been a huge resolution girly. I never really have been either. I've always thought it was a nice concept, but I've never really participated that much. I've always had concepts of a resolution.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
I like the ideas, but I'll be the first one to admit that I never really stick to them. I don't even really set them that hard. I'll be like, yeah, I want to start working out this year. But I never give myself this plan of action, which is most of the problem. And this year I went in being like, my first resolution is I'm going to be nicer to me. Me too.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
And I think that is the, if any of you are like, I would like a resolution or you're struggling, your first resolution should be, be nicer to you. Because it changes. It's like when your youngest goes, this changes everything. Yes. From blue.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
but it changes everything because if you are like being a dick to yourself like for instance this morning I did not want to wake up early I felt like shit the past couple days I saw that alarm I turned it off and then I said no girl bet on yourself don't give up on yourself and you didn't say like get up you lazy sack of shit you were like hey and it made the biggest difference you can do this like if you wouldn't say it to someone you love and care about
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
I tell my kids that all the time. No, it's so true. If you wouldn't say it to someone you love, if you wouldn't say it to me, if you wouldn't say it to Dada or anybody else you love, then don't say it to you. No. Because you need to be nice to yourself. And it's like being nice to yourself also makes it so that you don't take shit from anyone else. And you shouldn't.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Because you don't accept that kind of shit from outside sources. So be nice to yourself and you will suddenly find yourself being like, oh no, I'm not taking your nasty ass comments. I'm better than that. So that's my words of wisdom to you.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
One page I suggest following if you're on like a journey to like just a morning routine or like a fitness routine, any kind of routine, just like the habit stacking. I love Shelby Sacco. She's sad to savage on Instagram. She has like a podcast and everything. I love her. Oh, I love it. She starts her mornings and she like has this whole morning routine.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
But she's where I learned habit stacking, which I like to talk to you about. Habit stacking is... The move. There's so much actual scientific research behind it. Yeah. Like you just slowly add things to your day that you want to be part of your routine. Yeah. And once you're comfortable with one thing, add a little more.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Like she said, she was like, I... Don't put too much expectation on yourself. Yeah. She was like, I used to wake up at like 9 o'clock for my 9 a.m. job. And I was like, same sister. And she was like, and then I slowly started waking up 20 minutes earlier.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
It's so frustrating to have all your favorite shows live across multiple logins and apps. I'm like trying to watch one show. I'm like, wait, what's my login here? On Prime Video though, you can add over 100 subscriptions like Max, Apple TV Plus, and Paramount Plus all in one app. Experience the convenience of having your favorite subscriptions in your Prime Video account
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Did that for a couple weeks. Just a little bit. Like a little out of time. Just don't be hard on yourself. Yeah. And, like, if you want to do stuff, you can. But just be nice to yourself and do it slowly. Yeah. And you'll get there. And wash your hands. Don't let people make you feel like you got to do it all at once.
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Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
See, that's part of being nice to yourself is you won't let those people tell you what to do because you'll be like, no, I deserve more than that. Thank you. See?
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
I'm going to do what I say. Yeah. I love that. It's a nicer, more peaceful existence. It really is. People will try to drag you into bullshit. Don't let them. We're claiming our peace this year.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
2025 is the year of peace for us. Hell yeah, and peace for morbid listeners. Hey, yo. All right. Well, since you're morbid listeners and we just bantered your ears off for like 45 minutes, thank you for letting us do that. Yeah. We just went back to our roots. Yeah. Sometimes we gotta.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
We don't do it all the time, but we're feeling our roots. I just love going back to our roots. Yes. I love it. But let's go back to what you're here for, which is a case. And this case is really important because it's an unsolved case. So it's a little bit shorter, obviously, because when it's unsolved, there's not like the whole trial part of everything.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
But this was a Hulu documentary that came out like a few months ago, probably. And I said to Dave, I was like, we got to cover this because it's really interesting. And I want to get more ears on this. So let's go. We're going to talk about the unsolved murder of Melissa Witt. And it's so sad because she was 19 when she went missing. Oh. And that's when you look back at 19, that's a baby.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Oh my God. For me, that was like 10 years ago. And the difference between who I was then and who I am now, I know for you, it was like way longer ago. It was 20 years ago. That's okay. I'm older than the amount of years that is. But you look great. Yeah. And you're beautiful. So going back to the story, let's talk about Melissa Ann Witt before she disappeared, obviously.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Melissa Ann Witt was born April 20th, 1975. She too was from the 70s. Oh, there you go. In Arkansas to John and Mary Ann Witt. She was raised in Fort Smith. I always want to say Arizona, but it's Arkansas. I look at AR. Oh, yeah. And my brain says Arizona. I feel that. It's Arkansas. Arkansas. Arkansas. Don't yell at us. We're kidding.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
I'm kidding. I promise. But she was raised alongside her brother, Ronnie, and her sisters, Caroline and Barbara. She was a good student. She was very active in her church community at the Grand Avenue Baptist Church. And she always had really good relationships with her family, particularly her mother. They were super close. Oh, yeah.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
After Melissa's death, her mother would say how she never really had any trouble with Melissa at all. They were just best friends. They were always there for each other. And while a lot of teenagers usually, you know, obviously try to distance themselves from their parents, Melissa's relationship with her mom was always a source of pride for the two of them.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
All her friends and family knew just how close they were, and specifically, they knew how protective Marianne was over Melissa. Oh, that's so beautiful. I know. And especially like at 19. That's the thing. To have that relationship with your mom. Wow. Because obviously that's. That's the dream. Yeah. I mean, teenagers usually try to distance themselves from their parents around those years.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Oh, this is already breaking my heart. I know. So after graduating from Northside High School in 1993, Melissa enrolled at West Ark Community College with plans of becoming a dental hygienist. Oh, damn. Yeah. Not long after starting her first semester, she actually became an ambassador for the school. Holy shit.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Which meant that she would go out and recruit students to go there, promoting the school and its programs to any prospective students in the area. Yeah. And like the school has to trust you to send you out there and rep them like that. Also, dreams of becoming a dental hygienist. Dental, like, school. It's tough. In any capacity, hygienist or dentist, like, full-blown dentist. So hard.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
with one login and one password. There's 100 more premium and specialty subscriptions to unlock a world of movies, TV, and sports all in one app. Super duper easy to not have to log in to like 45 different streaming services. Check out subscriptions on Prime Video. Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And this is Morbid. This is morbid in 2025. It's been that way probably for a long time.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
You know how many times... Holy shit. You've done so many info drops on me like that.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
I bet you've been better before. Oh, but can... No, I can't. And also, how do you just like sit there and calmly, I guess, remove the spiders from said mouth and then be like... You gotta be... Hey, like we gotta be like good about brushing around the molars because like spiders... There was some arachnids taking up... Not arachnids. Taking up space in there. That's horrific.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
Arachnids were holding space in your mouth and... No, I can't. That's awful. I cannot. That's awful. I gotta go. Woof. Well, KFSM reporter Charlene Shirk told ABC News in 2024 that college had her go and recruit students because they wanted students like her. She was already a hard worker. She had big dreams for her life. And it just goes to show that she was willing to put in the work.
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
to make her dreams reality because in her spare time melissa actually worked as an assistant for a local dental practice in town oh damn so she was like i want to do this i'm going to start now yeah she's already like in the you know i'm going to get the on on-site experience yes the office manager anita dodson said missy was a very good kid she was friendly she didn't have any enemies everyone loved her and she was a good student although she would still joke around with us
Morbid
Episode 639: The Unsolved Murder of Melissa Witt
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Morbid
Episode 656: The Attempted Murder of Alison Botha
My God, the perspective that this will give you.
Morbid
Episode 656: The Attempted Murder of Alison Botha
I'm holding her stomach and the top of her head. Yes. And we are both just nodding at each other being like, wow, this is what she had to do.
Morbid
Episode 656: The Attempted Murder of Alison Botha
I just like don't know. where or when these come out and i apologize for that yeah um we won't be confused forever but it's right now i just don't know what episode is coming out so if it are if the bonus episode already happened wasn't that fucking cool and if it hasn't happened exciting so there's that god
Morbid
Episode 656: The Attempted Murder of Alison Botha
I mean, I just don't have words anymore. I've lost vocabulary words for what she is.
Morbid
Episode 656: The Attempted Murder of Alison Botha
I wasn't ready for that. I liked the pause. I went to grab my coffee and I was like, oh.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Hey weirdos, before we unleash today's macabre mystery, we were wondering, have you ever heard of Wondery Plus? It's like a secret passage to an ad-free lair with early access to episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
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Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
quince.com slash morbid. Hey, weirdos. If you guys know one thing about us, it's that we love a deep dive. Well, if you're looking for a limited series that will completely consume you, we've got you covered. Those sketchy texts you're always getting? Sometimes there's something way darker behind them.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Imagine helping your brother land a dream job abroad, only to discover you've trapped him in a nightmare. We're talking armed guards with shoot-to-kill orders and thousands forced to scam others just to stay alive.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Wondery's new podcast, Scam Factory, follows one family's desperate fight to save their brother from a multi-billion dollar criminal empire, where the only way out is to become part of the scheme that trapped you. Are you looking for a wild story that'll keep you up at night? Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
She said that she was just testing me to do my own research. I was like, I wanted you to check. So yeah, I did my own research and it turns out, survey says, real tuna. It was good. It slapped.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
You can binge all episodes of Scam Factory early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
This was for show. This was...
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
It is, absolutely. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
That is one of the factors about this case that always has stayed with me.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
The why there could take you down so many different pathways.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Yeah. To me, it feels like somebody experimenting with things that they had knowledge of, obviously, but experimenting to a degree.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Yeah, pre-lunch appetizer. We have an exciting thing happening today that we can't tell you yet. I know. And my tummy's all jumbly for it. So she didn't eat lunch.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Do you know off the top of your head how many liters of blood, like, obviously I'm sure it varies, but like an adult body would have?
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
To think of a body completely drained of blood. Because I saw you obviously in the hospital after you had gotten the transfusion. So all your blood was back. Yeah. You looked, I remember, I will never forget pulling a nurse aside and being like, is she like going to make it?
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
I was like gray. So I can't, you were, no, you were literally gray. Like I've never understood what people meant when they say somebody's gray. Until that moment. But to see somebody completely drained of blood, like.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Would you assume that that would have happened after she was bisected? I would assume yes. Right. Because then... Yeah, because that's the easiest way to do it because you've got two halves. Which is awful.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
And again, this wasn't a day and age where you could just, like, extensively look something up like that online. I mean, obviously, there were textbooks and that kind of thing. But even then, I would assume the resources on something like bisecting somebody and draining somebody of blood would be pretty limited.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
had possibly gone to school right to get this knowledge and possibly maybe not the bisecting but i don't know you just you almost assume that this person has done something like this before for it to come out that cleanly yeah you do feel you get the sense that this is not the first go even if maybe on some kind of cadaver in the learning process i don't know if that's how that works
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Sometimes it's fun. Oh, I thought you were going to continue that sentence. I thought you were like, I promise you. No, I just meant like, I promise you, you'll find out. Like period. Yeah. You're funny.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
All right, so a tangent aside.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
One of the most disturbing aspects of this case.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
That's one of the things that I think about the most is that it had to have been like hours and hours and hours, if not days.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Which, why? There's no scenario where that makes sense. There are tire tracks and a shoe print.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Those could be the most important.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Which, that's always so creepy to me. It says surgeon to me. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Many different things.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
It's a weird way to describe someone you think is 15 or 16 years old. Yeah, with trim legs. It's very 40s.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Yeah. I think I'm also looking at it from a perspective of now being later in my 20s. Exactly. Now you're older than her. So now it's like, whoa. You've barely become an adult yet.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Hyde Park. Hyde Park, you say? That's where the salon that I used to work at had its first ever location.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
hate that not great hate that not great that's fucking awful yeah that's real fucking awful i feel like i forgot that yeah there's so many parts of this case that you remember and then there's so many little details that you're like oh my god yeah i can remember that and she was only elizabeth was only about six years old oh this happened only six but old enough that you realize it oh that's terrible this is a big traumatic event um cleo alvin
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
That's wild to say. That's just like you're a wild asshole. That's wild to say ever. That's wild to say after your daughter's death. And that's wild to say after your daughter's gruesome death. Yeah, murder.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
It's a hard time, too, to figure out what you're doing in your early 20s, I think, and figure out where you want to be.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Yeah. It's kind of, I feel like that's like the time that you do it.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
So sad to think that like in her last day, she was struggling as much as she was.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Yeah, you shouldn't be focusing on only that. But I can understand why they were saying he might have been.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Yeah, I mean, you're in your early 20s and you're living in Los Angeles. Of course you're dating around.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
um his real name's alfred that's crazy good for him good for alfred he's just like doing poker okay so is he just a poker podcast is he kind of just like quietly existing podcast Yeah, it sounds like he's chilling. Okay. You know what? He plays harmonica. Wow, look at him.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Hollywood is fucking cursed, man.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Oh, poor Phoebe. I know.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Yeah, she's dating around.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
All right. He's like Blues Traveler. Is this the AJ Benza? Am I correct? What if this is just like a random vibe? I feel like that's AJ Benza. Yeah, I think so. He has that vibe.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
That was so of the time. So of the time. Can I just say, I fucking love that.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Who says that? What are men?
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Or no, on Scream. Scream. Yeah. You're in a place of dumb bitch lately. I am. And that guy's being a dumb bitch.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
So she was just like playing the field. She said, I don't know. She said, I don't know. I'm like 20. I don't know. I'm like 22 right now.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
It sounds like she didn't want a lot from this man romantically, and that was the best way to go about it, to let him down easy. Yeah, it does kind of seem like that. You know?
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
First of all, super disrespectful to your wife. Yeah. Super disrespectful to Elizabeth to be a part of a fucking test unknowingly. Yep. And third of all, fuck off. Yeah. Fuck you.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Yours is dyed. You have a soul. Whatever.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Bro, I can, can't you see it? No, I, not only can I see that, I can see the point of view, like watching the TV from your bed. That's what, in the purple walls. Yeah. Oh my God.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
I don't know about that, my friend.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
That's giving, sir, how do you fall asleep under these circumstances?
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
I mean, who knows how long they were questioning him, but... Open your eyes.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Sounds like a ginger to me.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Yeah, this is a wild case. I got a 99.9% opinion. Me too. So we will definitely talk about that in part two. And yeah. In the meantime, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it. weird but not so weird that you lie to the police about your whereabouts or test your fucking wife in any way yeah fuck don't test me and don't call the victim a tease oh Thank you.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Yeah, no, I remember that.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Like I was like, what? Somebody did that to someone else? I feel like they show, not like obviously like an overhead shot, but they show part of the... The crime scene. The crime scene.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
All right. Let's do it.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Oh, my God. Hi, AJ Benza. I don't think he has a poker podcast, by the way. I said that wrong. It's a poker show. Oh, okay. Good for him, man. Yeah. Just before anybody corrects me. Yeah, you don't want to get it. I read wrong, okay? Yeah. I'm wrong. It was live reading. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Yeah, she was like, oh, my God, put your trash in the garbage.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
I don't know. I just felt a little unhinged. I mean, what else is new? I was going to say, wow, weird. I just got Subway. She did. It was a break from the norm. I haven't had Subway in like 10 years at least. I know.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Yeah, like possibly 15 years. It wasn't even a choice. It just happened. Yeah. Yeah. I just really wanted it.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Don't touch a dead body for a myriad of reasons. Don't get your fucking fingerprints on a dead body. Hello?
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Well, that's the thing. I don't know how, like, I don't know the procedural for this, but I'm assuming you would probably send a different set of officers for those two things. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
Yeah. And it's real tuna, apparently. It is. Well, Elena tried to tell me that it wasn't. She was like, you know, it's not real tuna. And I was like, oh, my God. And then I Googled it. And it turns out there was a lawsuit back in the day. Yeah. People were trying to say, it's not real tuna. It is. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
And again, this is 1947. Exactly. So there's not a lot of evidence to begin with.
Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
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Morbid
Episode 647: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 1)
I love the organic fisherman crew neck sweater. I have like three of those. And that's not it. They also have 14-karat gold jewelry. Ooh la la. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Hey weirdos, before we unleash today's macabre mystery, we were wondering, have you ever heard of Wondery Plus? It's like a secret passage to an ad-free lair with early access to episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And despite having not been in the bathroom at the time or having been told what his boss had discovered, he told the officer on the other end, there's a woman tied up in the bathtub.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah. So homicide detectives arrived at the apartment a few minutes later and they confirmed what Fiorenza had claimed on the phone. Nancy was laying face down in the tub. She was nude except for a white slip around her waist and the pink pajama top and house coat that had been tied around her neck and used to strangle her. That's awful. There was really no sign of a struggle in the apartment.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
So detectives concluded that she had to have known her attacker and most likely let him in voluntarily.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Based on the state of disarray in the bedroom, they assumed that some kind of assault had occurred there. The clothing that Nancy had been wearing that morning was strewn about the room and it looked actually like it had been ripped from her body. So there was evidence of a struggle for sure. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
That's K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com slash morbid. What's it like to get the new iPhone 16 Pro with AT&T next up anytime? It's like when you first light up the grill and think of all the mouth-watering possibilities. Learn how to get the new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence on AT&T and the latest iPhone every year with AT&T next up anytime. AT&T, connecting changes everything.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Examining the body, the medical examiner, Thomas Gonzalez, found ligature marks around her wrist and surmised that Nancy had been bound and most likely sexually assaulted before her pajamas were double knotted around her neck and she was dumped in the bathtub. Holy shit. Just thinking of her pajamas being used to strangle her is so dark. Oh, that's awful. Ugh. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
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Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
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Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
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Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Subject to your available earnings, location, daily max, and pay period max. See earnin.com slash TOS for details. Earnin is a financial technology company, not a bank. Bank products are issued by Evolve Bank and Trust member FDIC. After doing his preliminary examination, Gonzalez ordered that Nancy's body be removed from the tub and transported to the morgue.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And it was at that point that they discovered a 12-inch length of cord underneath her body, which presumably was what was used to bind her wrists. But remember, they were no longer bound. Nancy's friend Georgia told reporters, poor little Nancy. She couldn't fight. She had no strength. She wouldn't know what to do. All she could do was scream. Because she was a woman of very small stature.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
She was very petite. No, the crime scene didn't lend a lot of clues. The Venetian blinds were all shut, and the apartment had been dark when the two men arrived to deliver the love seat.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
In the bedroom, both beds appeared to still have been made from that morning, but the bed near the bathroom was, quote, slightly rumpled, as though somebody, perhaps during a struggle, had brushed heavily against it.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Investigators checked the fire escape and concluded that there was no way somebody would have been able to reach that from the street, so the killer definitely would have had to come through the front door. And then in the bathroom, they did discover a fingerprint on the tub, and in the bedroom, they found a fountain pen on the floor. Just all the clues that they could have possibly found.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Apple Intelligence coming fall 2024 with Siri and device language set to U.S. English. Some features and languages will be coming over the next year. $0 offer may not be available on future iPhones. Next up, anytime features may be discontinued at any time. Subject to change. Additional fees, terms, and restrictions apply. See AT&T.com slash iPhone for details. Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
While technicians continued to process the apartment, detectives fanned out around the building, just trying to talk to potential witnesses and any neighbors who may have heard something. The first person they talked to was obviously Nancy's husband, Louis.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
He actually arrived at the apartment about an hour after police had started their investigation, and he hadn't been told about his wife's death yet. So he just walked into this. Oh, that's awful. And he was shocked to find countless detectives and police in his apartment when he got home. Imagine showing up to that. Yeah, he actually, when he heard what happened, he collapsed. Oh, God.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah, it's very sad. And given his horrified and very devastated response to what had happened, he really seemed like an unlikely suspect. Yeah. But they did confirm his alibi as well and it checked out. So he had nothing to do with this. The others who were initial but not very strong suspects included four painters who had been working in the building that day.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And actually, theirs were among the fingerprints that had been discovered in the apartment. But since they were working in the apartment in the days leading up to this, that obviously made sense. But they also had alibis that were checked into and they were ruled out as suspects.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Other than the maid in the apartment below, none of the neighbors actually heard any noises coming from the apartment that morning. And one neighbor told a reporter, my collie is a very nervous dog. If there had been any great disturbance, I'm sure he would have barked. Oh, so there you go. Yeah. And I believe that. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
There was, however, another strange occurrence relayed by Countess Alice Hoyos, who lived in the apartment two floors beneath the Titterton's. Countess? The Countess. Oh, shit. And because she's a Countess, I just refer to her as the Countess. The Countess. According to the Countess. And this is really freaky.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
An unknown man had rung the bell at her apartment multiple times in the days before the murder. And she said each time it was like he was trying to disguise his voice so he sounded like somebody different each time he did this. And she told detectives each incident went the same way.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
She said the buzzer would ring, she would answer it, and then the man would say, I'm looking for a miss, and then he would mumble a name.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
I don't like that. But, like, not actually come out and say any name. Hoping somebody would open the door to be like, who are you looking for? Yes, exactly. So, obviously, these freaked her out. These calls freaked her out because she was sure, like you just said, they were a ruse to get her to open the door. So she actually tried to get a good look at the man before he walked away.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
She told detectives he was young, wore good clothing, and seemed to be attempting to hide his face.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And she told them that the last time the man rang the bell was actually just a few hours before Nancy was murdered. Ooh. Yeah. That's haunting. It is. So the following day, the medical examiner, Dr. Gonzalez, released his autopsy report, which confirmed, among other things, unfortunately, that Nancy had been sexually assaulted. And the cause of death was listed as ligature strangulation.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah. The report also stated that, quote, the strangulation caused a hemorrhage of the larynx and three slight internal hemorrhages of the scalp. Wow. So this was a violent assault.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
So the time of death was listed between 11 and 11.30 a.m., and that was based on the fact that rigor mortis had, quote, become virtually complete by the time that Gonzalez made his preliminary examination around 5.30 p.m. Okay. And this more or less corresponded with what the downstairs maid said. She told police that she heard those screams coming from the apartment.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And scratching and bruising on Nancy's hands and arms suggested that she actually had tried very hard to fight off her attacker. In their statement to the press, a spokesperson for the NYPD appeared optimistic. He told reporters, there are a lot of things that haven't been developed yet. The research detectives have taken something to the laboratories for further examination.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And I'm Alayna. And this is Morbid. Morbid. I know. I'm sick. She's like very loopy. Did you take Dayquil today? No. You didn't take anything? I didn't. You're so loopy today.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
We're making a thorough search, but we won't be able to get any real basis for investigation until final reports from them. Now, despite the optimistic tone, the truth was that they really didn't have a lot of evidence to work with, and they had almost zero leads.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Other than the short length of cord found with the body, which was pretty unremarkable, the only other significant clue was that unidentified fingerprint in the bathroom. Now, at that time, police forensic departments were actually just starting to work with a new fingerprinting process. They would use silver nitrate to lift prints from surfaces like fabric and porous materials. Oh, interesting.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah, right? But the system was new and it was going to take a lot of time, so investigators had to be patient with that. So while investigators waited on science to provide any leads, the press seized upon the story of yet another murder in Beekman Place. Author Harold Schechter wrote that the killing occurred one week to the day after Vera Stretz's acquittal only added to its lurid appeal.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Of course. Now, she was somebody who lived in the apartment, Vera Stretz, and she had been accused of murdering her lover in a jealous rage, but she was actually acquitted after she testified for hours on the stand that her murder had been committed in self-defense. The Daily Mirror was among the press who reported the story in a very crude manner.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
They quote, and this is awful, they quote, presented the gruesome sex killing as a five panel comic strip complete with graphic drawings of the corpse and a fedora wearing detective bearing a marked resemblance to Dick Tracy.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
They made a literal comic strip, a five-panel comic strip. Like, you gotta be tapped. Damn. You gotta be tapped to do that. Yeah, that's... Wow. And just to publish that and be like, yeah, this is a good choice.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
astronomical zero zero integrity and nobody was like this isn't bad taste yeah i don't know how that got through other papers particularly the tabloids focused on nancy's quote owlishly solemn bookish demeanor and claimed that she quote liked to parade around her apartment in a negligee even when delivery boys and workmen were present Oh, shut the fuck up.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Number one, even if she did, that's her fucking prerogative. She's in her own home. And number two, oh, were you there? Did you know that? Like, fuck off. Ew. And actually, that's incorrect. She was wearing pajamas, which she was strangled with. That's awful. Nice try. She knew whatever the fuck she wants. Again, it's her fucking apartment.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
But the more reputable outlets like the New York Times focused on the scientific aspects of the investigation, drawing comparisons to other recent cases where science actually played a critical role in catching the killers, like Richard Hauptman, who was found responsible for the Lindbergh baby kidnapping and murder.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
A New York Times reporter wrote, test tubes bubbled, microscope experts bent over slides, and a group of police research men pondered possibly important notes yesterday. Fields of science almost ignored heretofore were entered yesterday, and some of the methods of scientific investigation suggested in the Hauptman case have been resorted to. I just love how they used to talk.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah. That's a fun, that's got a nice mouthfeel.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Now, within days, the tabloids had resorted to sensational tactics like hiring psychic mediums to comment on the identity of the killer. In a Daily Mirror article a few days after the murder, the paper, quote, Okay. She also consulted Nancy's chart and deduced, quote, the murderer was an older man and that he either came from or has gone to a distance since the crime was committed.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Whoa. Settle down, brother. It's been very funny up in the pod lab today. It's been a good... We're good time gals today. We are. Mikey included.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Which it's like, there's a time and a place for astrology, and I just don't feel like it's here. I don't think it's here. And I don't know what somebody's chart can tell you about the person that murdered them. Yeah, I don't know about that. Like, I know your chart can tell you a lot about you. Yeah. And, you know, maybe when you're going to die, but I... It just feels inappropriate.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah, and it'd be one thing if, like, you know, for some reason her husband wanted to consult with an astrologist about this, but it's a tabloid. To just take it upon yourself is really wild. Yeah, but she wasn't the only one. The Mirror were not alone in their tacky, sensational journalism.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
The New York Post, not wanting to be outdone, consulted their own astrologer, Belle Bart, and she claimed the murderer is German or English, has a light complexion, takes drugs or drinks, met Miss Titterton in the fall of 1935, and escaped from Beekman Place in a southwesterly direction. Again. Okay. I don't know how astrology would tell you that. Yeah. I'm not sure about that.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Astrology's not going to tell you how and where this man escaped to. Like, that doesn't make any sense. No. Meanwhile, actual detectives focused on the few pieces of evidence that they did have in the case, and the biggest piece among them was the length of cord found in the bathtub.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Unlike a traditional rope that you would expect to find in a case like this, this cord was thin, and it looked like the kind of cord found on the blinds in the Titterton apartment. Oh. But all of the cords in the apartment blinds appeared to be intact, so it wasn't from them.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
But given the length, a little over 12 inches, it seemed unrealistic that it would have bound Nancy's hands for very long. So detectives theorized that it had to have come from a longer piece of rope. And if that was the case, they believed, quote, the killer, intent on removing all physical evidence, had sliced off the rope and carried it away with him.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
What's up with you? How's your... What day is this coming out? Like, what's going on? I think this comes out, like, after Thanksgiving. Yeah. So, like, how was your Thanksgiving? It was great. You were there. Yeah, I was. I was just looking for things to chat about. Fucking asshole.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
However, in his rush to get away, he must have missed the shorter piece concealed under Nancy's body. And they were correct. Okay. Now, Nancy's funeral service was held on April 13th and attended by over 200 people. Wow. That's telling. That's very telling.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
That same day, investigators released another statement to the press, this time to address the growing number of rumors in the press that Nancy had been having an affair and was murdered by her lover. Oh, my God. Which was just completely untrue. Seriously. Assistant Chief Inspector John Lyons said, we are satisfied now that Mrs. Titterton voluntarily admitted the man.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
This does not mean, however, that he was a lover or a close friend. It may have been a salesperson or a repairman of some sort, someone who made a casual call. Yeah, that's the thing. It doesn't need to be salacious. Just because she let somebody in, it doesn't mean they were involved with each other romantically. Exactly.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Investigators felt confident that they were zeroing in on the type of man who had murdered Nancy, but days after her body was discovered, they were still no closer to identifying a suspect. The fingerprints that they pulled from the fabrics on the ligature were too degraded to be of use, and the skin fragments found under Nancy's nails were equally useless, unfortunately.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
By midweek, the list of potential suspects had narrowed even further, as Nancy's friends and family were all cleared one after the other. By the end of the week, investigators had run down pretty much all of their leads and finally admitted publicly that despite the full-time efforts of 65 detectives on the case, they were at a loss. Wow. Yeah. That is so, that would be devastating to hear.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah, especially as her family, her husband, like I can't imagine. Yeah. All attempts to trace the manufacturing of the cord used to bind Nancy's hands had proved fruitless, but still the cord remained one of the only viable clues in the case. And finally, on April 17th, detectives got a break in the case when a representative from the Hanover Cordage Company in York, Pennsylvania contacted them,
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Wow. Which is like, that's crazy. That is crazy. Damn. Oh, okay. They gave detectives a complete list of their distributors and investigators started tracking the various shipments from the distributors to see if any cordage had made its way to service people in or around Manhattan. After combing through a very large number of records...
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
detectives finally traced a shipment to a New York City distributor who had among their clients Theodore Kruger, an upholsterer on the Upper East Side, and the man who had discovered Nancy's body, remember. Because remember, she was getting a delivery from an upholsterer on the morning of her murder. Yep.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Detectives had actually interviewed Kruger extensively and he had been ruled out as a suspect. They were able to confirm that he had been in the shop on the morning of the murder. His assistant, John Fiorenza, on the other hand, had not been ruled out. And as they started looking into Fiorenza's background...
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
They learned that not only did he have a lengthy criminal history, but also a significant psychiatric report that described him as, among other things, a, quote, personality deviant who would have difficulty in learning to refrain from illegal acts from time to time. Oh. I also love that it's from time to time. Yeah, just every now and then.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Hey everyone, let's talk about protein for a second. There's this rumor that getting plant-based protein is tough, but listen, there are some amazing options out there. Even if you're not vegan, adding more plant-based protein to your diet is a fantastic way to nourish your body and support the planet. My go-to for tasty protein and superfood-packed shake is cachava.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Or sometimes he's going to have a hard time referring from illegal activities. He's good. Yeah. Have you ever found the house of your dreams only to learn that it has dark secrets? Netflix's new series No Good Deed follows three families vying to buy a 1920s Spanish-style villa that they think will solve their problems.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
But as the sellers discover, sometimes the home of your dreams can be a total nightmare. No Good Deed, starring Lisa Kudrow and Ray Romano, is now playing only on Netflix.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
The more detectives learned about John Fiorenza, the more convinced they became that he was the most likely killer amongst their suspects. He was described as a, quote, grade school dropout with a dull, normal IQ and a face fixed in a perpetual smirk.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
I love that. Describing something as dull just hits. It does hit. You're so dull. That word just has like a – It really does. Yeah. But it seemed that he just really didn't have a lot going for him.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
I forgot to take leftovers. And then you went away for a weekend. I know. And I didn't get to go out. We were all supposed to go away and do like this fun little family thing. And I couldn't because my cat was sick. My little Frankie was sick. And it turns out it was very scary, you guys. If your cat has ever passed a stone and you think that somebody's been murdered in your house, same.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah, never really had. At the time of the murder, he was a 24-year-old apprentice living with his mother and her second husband in Brooklyn. And he was, quote, withdrawn to the point of extreme social isolation, which is scary. Yeah. Yeah. His stepfather told a reporter, and this was crazy, that, quote, Johnny had only spoken to him no more than seven times in the past 11 years. What?
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
His stepdad, whomst he lived with, had spoken to him no more than seven times in 11 years. Holy shit. Like...
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah, probably. Like he left the house, but it was like a social agoraphobia, I guess.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
whoa like that's just like I like I'm a quiet person yeah you would consider yourself an introvert yeah I consider myself an introvert and that is mind-boggling to me well because you're living in the same home as somebody like you don't even and you're living in New York so presumably you're living in an apartment yeah you don't just like exchange pleasantries in the morning that's the thing I'm like what's going on there I'm also like what did you say in those seven times damn
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah. He also, it was said that he hadn't started dating until a few years earlier, and he's 24, so of course that's a bit unusual. But he had started seeing his girlfriend, Pauline D'Antonio, and he was planning to marry her in the fall, actually. They were engaged.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah, but his criminal history went back more than a decade, and his first arrest happened when he was 12 years old.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
i mean that's not great that's not great it's not a good start no he had stolen a bicycle and since then he had just been in and out of trouble with the law on a regular basis for the most part the crimes that he committed were petty they were like thefts but there was a grand larceny charge for stealing musical instruments from a store okay
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And during one of his periods of incarceration, he was examined by a prison psychiatrist who described him as a, quote, interesting. Yeah. More simply put, he was the type of person who acted very impulsively and based on what he wanted in the moment without any kind of consideration for consequences. I see.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And this, the psychiatrist believed, was supported by his many brazen crimes, including stealing cars in the middle of the day in full view of crowds of people, but just because he wanted to take them for a joyride. Damn. But would literally just like break into a car and take it. It's like whatever. And just didn't give a shit. It's mine. Yeah. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Now, despite John's criminal history and dull personality... So dull. So dull. Theodore Kruger had taken pity on John and hired him, like we said, as an upholstery assistant three years earlier. Upholstery was a skill that John had actually learned during one of his prison stays.
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Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
The amount of blood that I was finding just in various spots throughout my house, I was like... Oh, my God. That sounds terrifying. It was so scary. And we knew that Franklin wasn't feeling well because he gets super cuddly when he doesn't feel well. So we took him to the vet and it turns out he passed one stone. But unfortunately, my man still has one to pass. He's out here. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
For the most part, his job was just to sweep up the studio, keep the front windows clean, help out with deliveries, but occasionally Kruger had him assist with more complicated tasks. As far as Kruger was concerned, John was, quote, good-natured but not very quick-witted, and his criminal record, which Kruger described as being over little things, had kept John from finding success.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Kruger thought that John seemed determined to better his life, though, and he found that to be an admirable quality, so he took a chance on him. Which I get that. Yeah, and Kruger seems like a nice guy.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah, if somebody is showing you... Seems like they really are. Yeah, exactly. In fact, the morning that they were to deliver the loveseat to Nancy Titterton's apartment, John had arrived a few hours late to work, telling his boss that he had been at an appointment with his probation officer. So that's interesting. I was going to say probation officer.
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Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
But, you know, he's checking in with his probation officer. So Kruger's like he's doing the right thing. He's being a good kid. Like he's doing what he needs to do. Yeah, he's trying to better himself. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Now, although they had traced the cord back to Kruger's shop and they were pretty confident that they had found their killer at this point, investigators knew that the cord alone was not going to be able to hold him for very long and especially not on a murder charge.
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Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
After all, that particular cord had been shipped to many upholstery shops, and they couldn't be sure if it definitely came from Theodore Kruger's shop. So this was all, like, very tenuous. Yeah, very tenuous. So rather than arrest him, John was placed under 24-hour surveillance while detectives and forensic experts desperately searched for any additional evidence that would lead to a conviction.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Now, after one week of investigation, the Titterton apartment had been thoroughly searched, and it really seemed unlikely that any new evidence was going to be discovered. But just in case, on April 20th, Dr. Alexander Gettler, a biochemist who was working with the NYPD, went back to the Beekman Place apartments in hope of finding anything new.
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Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Now, he had been the one actually to discover the Isley contained within the cord and eventually traced its origin. So without him, like this all would be nowhere near this. It never would have happened. And if anybody was going to find something that somebody had missed, it was going to be this guy.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
At the apartment, he was combing over Nancy's bedspread with a high-powered magnifying glass when he discovered one single hair that the other technicians had missed. A single hair. This guy for life. No, honestly. It makes me think of Spencer Reed. It makes me think of Spencer from Criminal Minds. Yes, absolutely. I just picture him going over it with a high-powered glass. Yes, absolutely.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Now, later, he described the hair as white and, quote, strangely stiff. He said it certainly was not human. Now, after examining the hair under a microscope, he determined that it was horse hair, which was the kind typically used by upholsters. Oh, I didn't even think of that.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Now, aware that the Tiddertons had their love seat delivered on the morning of the murder, Gettler took a sample of the horse hair from the love seat and compared it to the one that he discovered on the bed, and the two were a match. So that hair that was found on Nancy's bed was a match to the love seat that had been delivered that morning. Shit.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Now, given that the hair came from the love seat, it didn't seem unreasonable that one of the hairs made its way to another location in the apartment. But that love seat hadn't been delivered until after Nancy was killed, which meant that the only way it could have gotten mixed up on the bedclothes or the bedspread was if the killer had it on him when he sexually assaulted Nancy on the bed.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
But they sent his cultures to Italy or something. That's fancy as hell. I know. And the cultures came back and they didn't have bacteria. So that's my cat's health for you. He's okay. And I love him so much. We love Frankie. Frankie forever. You and Franklin have a spiritual connection.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Oh, God. Yeah. And this was precisely the piece of evidence that detectives needed to break that case wide open. Damn. So they went back to Theodore Kruger, who was absolutely shocked to learn that his assistant was even a suspect. He told detectives that John Fiorenza was a, quote, perfect gentleman and assured him, quote, there was never anything about him that was bad.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
He said, why, I've even seen him take the meat out of his sandwich for lunch and give it to our dog. Oh. Which is very sweet, but like... Okay. Murderers are nice to animals sometimes.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
he was not wanting to accept yeah what was in front of him and i feel bad too because i mean that would make you doubt any kind of confidence you have in anybody of course it would you're like i took a chance on this guy i really thought he was you know wanting to better himself and i mean had he not given him a chance nancy would still be alive technically possibly well so you just think constantly like what the fuck
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Exactly. And like we said, he... He was putting out all the illusions that he was bettering himself. And Theodore confirmed to detectives that it was true that John had been late to work on the morning of the murder. But he said it was only because he had his weekly appointment with his probation officer. He's like, he's doing the right thing.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Now, Fiorenza's alibi, the probation appointment, was the last piece of the puzzle that detectives needed to knock down before they could arrest him. Fortunately, that proved a lot easier than they could have expected. Like I said, the Friday that Nancy was murdered was Good Friday. And John's probation officer, a very strict Catholic, had taken that day off.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
So there was no way John met with his probation officer.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Wow. The way this case came together, like I said at the beginning, that's why these old-timey cases are so intriguing to us because it's not, oh, his DNA was found at the crime scene. Or they saw him on a camera. Yeah, they saw him on a camera. This is like... Old-fashioned detective work.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
that that's like crazy that's crazy and like the guy who went the investigator who went back and found the hair that nobody else had found and it was this one just i mean picture one strand of horse hair like that's like a small hair it's like finding a dog hair on your bed yeah but just finding that back then and then going back and saying oh that's from the the furniture that was reupholstered like it's unbelievable it really is
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
So with the newly discovered evidence in hand and John's alibi disproven, detectives moved quickly to arrest their suspect. And at first, John denied having anything to do with the murder. He insisted he was innocent. But after more than 16 hours of relentless interrogation, he asked to speak to Commissioner Louis Valentine.
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Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And he told the commissioner, give me a cigarette and I'll tell you all I know.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
According to his confession, John had gone to the Titterton's apartment on April 9th, the day before the murder, to pick up the love seat with Theodore Kruger. And as soon as he saw Nancy, he said, the idea came to me of doing what I did to her afterward.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah. As far as he could tell, Nancy was a slight woman, just about 100 pounds. He said she seemed gentle and soft-spoken, so he was pretty sure she wouldn't put up much of a fight, which he was wrong about because she did. Fuck that guy.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah. And he's not snuggly with just anybody. No way. Like even Drew, he's like sometimes snuggly with, but most of the time it's just me. But me? Always snuggly. Always. I know.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And the next morning, he called Kruger to say he'd be late, and then he grabbed the 52-inch length of cord he'd taken from the upholstery studio the day before and made his way to the Titterton apartment. When he arrived there, he rang the bell and Nancy released the door to let him in because she knew who he was.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Upstairs, he told her he'd come about the love seat and he wanted to know where she wanted it. He said, just to get her in there, I asked her, didn't she want the love seat in the bedroom? and the question prompted her to go to the bedroom to see if maybe she'd like the furniture in there, and Fiorenza followed her.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Once they were in the bedroom, trigger warning, this is pretty graphic, he attacked Nancy and grabbed, quote, whatever it was she had in her hand and stuffed it in her mouth so she couldn't yell anymore.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Which is why nobody heard anything. With Nancy gagged, he started ripping off her clothes in a frenzy, and then he sexually assaulted her. He said, from time to time, when she started to scream, as the gag worked loose, I throttled her with my hands.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And just says this like he's recounting a TV show that he watched. What a fucking animal. Yeah, truly. When he was done, he grabbed the pajamas and the dressing coat from the floor, knotted them together, and used that clothing to strangle Nancy. Which is like... How do you go from grand larceny, stealing cars, to raping and murdering a woman this brutally? It's inconceivable.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
At first, he said he thought about filling the tub to make it look like Nancy died by accident, which I'm like, that wouldn't have worked because you strangled her and assaulted her, but okay.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
But he couldn't find the plug, so he left her face down to strangle.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Before he left, he got a knife from the kitchen and cut the cord that he used to bind her hands, assuming that he had taken it all with him when he left.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
So he didn't. He managed to get out of the apartment, he said, without being seen, tossed the cord in a public trash can, and then stepped into a drugstore to call his boss and say he'd be a little later than he thought because he was, you know, meeting with his probation officer, doing the right thing, cleaning up his act. He's such a good guy. Such a good guy. Gives meat to dogs. Fuck that guy.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
When he finally got back to the shop a little before noon, the two men finished fixing Nancy's love seat. So he's sitting there fixing her love seat, knowing full well that she's dead in a bathtub. Holy shit. And then they loaded it onto the truck and headed for Beekman Place. Wow. When they asked why he had done what he did, he seemed just as confused and said, She wasn't my type.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
It's getting to the end of the day, and we're goofy.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
If I saw her on the street, I wouldn't give her a second look. Fuck you. Just to be a dick one more time. Literally fuck you. I don't know. I wouldn't have given her a second glance, but I guess I just felt like it that day.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
The arrest did come as a shock to those who knew him personally. His girlfriend, Pauline, refused to believe that he'd committed the murder or was even capable of such a crime, which... You gotta believe when he confesses that he did it, but also I can understand not thinking that somebody you love is capable of that. No, of course.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
We're not going to be goofy for long, though, because I do actually have a very sad case today. That's why we're getting it out now. Yes, exactly. We had to get it out of our systems. Do you feel un-goof-fied?
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And she told a group of reporters assembled outside her apartment, he did not do it. They're telling lies about him. He did not confess. He would not have confessed to such a thing. He will be back and we will be married in September.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
you know if he's implicated in this most likely not obviously we see cases where false confessions happen and yada yada yada this is not one of those this exactly is not one of those and I'm just like he has a shit eating grin you gotta be careful of those ones yeah honestly good for her that she was able to get away eventually honestly now and this is sad obviously John's mother was similarly stunned she told reporters Johnny was a good boy he had a girl they were going to be married like murders do sometimes get married and
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Theodore Kruger echoed the disbelief, telling reporters, he was a nice boy, I always thought. Why, I remember when he saw the body, he said to me, this must be the work of a maniac.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
His mom, his girlfriend, and somebody he worked every single day with. And I can't imagine working with somebody, discovering a body with someone, and having that experience. And then finding out they did it. Finding out that they did it and reacted in the moment like so...
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
so normally like yeah like organically yeah like oh this must be the work of a maniac meanwhile he's the maniac no that would be really yeah like that would fuck you up that would fuck you up for a long time definitely
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Now, despite their disbelief, John was arraigned the following day on charges of rape and first-degree murder, which, again, he confessed to the crime. After the arraignment, he accompanied detectives back to the Titterton apartment, where he reenacted the crime and also retraced his escape route.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
With a full confession and now very strong evidence, the assistant prosecutor predicted a very speedy trial and announced he would take the case to a grand jury in the coming days. The judge at the arraignment magistrate, I think it's Aurelio, commended the police and the prosecutor's office for their efficiency and skill.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
He said this case proves that no crime can be hidden from effective police work. As a citizen of this city, I feel extremely proud of the work done by the police.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah. In his statement to the press, Commissioner Valentine, quote, Yeah. He noted that not only was this the biggest murder investigation in New York history to that point, but he also emphasized the fact that it wouldn't have been solved without the dedication of more than 65 police officers and, quote, the help of their technical research lab in Brooklyn and of the city toxicology laboratory.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Okay. While detectives on the case were relentless in the pursuit of Nancy's killer, quote, science, Valentine told reporters, quote, played a deciding role in the solution.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Which I knew you would love. I love that. It was science. Science. It was. With the killer caught, the DA, William Dodge, assured residents and reporters that he had every intention of moving quickly to secure his indictment and conviction. Just three days after the arrest, Fiorenza's case went to a grand jury on April 25th.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And after reviewing the evidence and listening to the testimony from eight witnesses, an indictment for first-degree murder was returned in less than half an hour. Despite the hearing, Firenze's attorneys, quote, brought strong intimations that they would seek to have him declared insane and would assail the method with which his confession was obtained. Police. Yeah, ridiculous.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
They insisted, despite the fact that he confessed multiple times to rape and murder, that he actually had nothing to do with the crime and had actually been coerced into a confession. I doubt it. Yeah, me too. True to their word, though, the district attorney's office moved very quickly, surprisingly quick. And John's trial started May 20th, just a little over a month after the murder occurred.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Anticipating that Fiorenza's team would go for an insanity plea, Dodge's office enlisted at least four highly regarded psychiatrists to argue otherwise. But to their surprise, Fiorenza's lawyer, Henry Klobber, made a different claim and again asserted that his client had nothing to do with the murder.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
He told the jury, "...a fiend was on the loose, and it was not this defendant who murdered Mrs. Chitterton," as he pointed over to his client. According to the defense, another woman had been attacked in the area days before Nancy, and they intended to show that it was the same attacker and not John Fiorenza who was responsible for the murder. It's a good tactic. It's like, that's cool.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Why did he confess multiple times then? Yeah. Klobber's claim certainly wouldn't have been the first time a defense lawyer had attempted to pin the blame on just a mysterious unnamed person.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
But the problem was that he had no evidence to support his claim. And once the jury heard Fiorez's full and very convincing confession read aloud in court, he changed strategies and started building that insanity defense.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
It was evidence. My bad. My bad. And just to be safe, his cross-examination of the detectives who took the confession indicated that he was ready to challenge it on the grounds of coercion. I think that's all he's got. He's playing a dirty game. That's all he's got. Exactly.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Much to the surprise of the prosecution, though, while their previous defense didn't appear to be working out, Klobber and the rest of the defense team just seemed to be keeping all their options open and juggling several arguments at once. Yeah, you gotta hedge your bets there. Not a great plan, though, to go for everything all at the same time.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Probably not, but when you got nothing, you gotta work with everything. You know, exactly. The insanity plea seemed the best bet, but they still called John's mother to the stand, Oop, who testified that contrary to the confession, her son hadn't left the house until a little before 11 a.m.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
on the morning of the murder, which would have made it impossible for him to have committed the murder and still made it to work by 1230 p.m. Which it's like, yeah, timelines are a little rough and I don't think we should rely on his mom's version of events, unfortunately. If anyone's going to lie for you, it's going to be your mom. It's your mom.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
But you did determine that you actually did eat the germs up. I think I did.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
In support of their insanity defense, the clubber also called John's stepfather, Ignazio Coupani, to testify to John's unusual behavior going back many years. Like he didn't speak to him for 11 years, maybe. Yes, exactly. In addition to hardly ever speaking at home. His stepfather told the court he, quote, used to sit down all the time in the rocking chair with his head between his hands.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
When this happened, he would look up and he would say, who's calling? And we would say, no one's calling. We hear nothing. That's strange. It is. And his stepfather also got down from the stand and demonstrated some of John's other unusual behaviors. He said he also had a tendency to, quote, catch something or someone invisible who was following or calling him. That's weird. It's weird.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And it's very specific. It is very specific, and I believe maybe it happened. Interesting. I don't know. Other family members, including John's aunt, gave additional testimony in support of what his stepfather had told the court. But a lot of this testimony was undermined during cross-examination by the DA, William Dodge.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
who clearly established that no matter how strange John's behavior might have been, it couldn't have been too severe because he managed to hold down a full-time job and a romantic relationship for several years.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Right. Exactly. Exactly. So finally, Klobber called on Dr. Albert Crane, and this is where it all went wrong. Albert Crane was a psychiatrist from Staten Island who had examined John. According to Crane, John was a, quote, dementia precox case with a split mentality incapable of realizing the nature and quality of his acts.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Of course, the question of his sanity wasn't the issue so much as whether he knew what he was doing was wrong at the time. And that was something Crane couldn't deny.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
On cross-examination, Dodge asked the psychiatrist, quote, if he made a confession to the police and was then asked by an assistant district attorney to state the facts again, and he refused on the grounds that it would be used against him, would you say that he knew or did not know the nature or quality of his acts?
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah, could you just let me know? Could you remind me if that works out with your insanity defense? That was some top-notch lawyering. Now, Crane, who's literally sitting on the stand and knew that this is exactly what had happened in the case, and had also sworn to tell the truth, had no choice but to undermine his own previous testimony.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
He replied, I would say that he was keenly aware of the nature and quality of his behavior at
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
So why'd you say that? Explain to me. Imagine as a psychiatrist sitting on that stand and trying, you're a witness for the defense. Geek. And then the DA gets you that easily.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
That's a mic drop moment. Truly. Now, the insanity claim was even further weakened when Dodge called on four of his own psychiatric expert witnesses, all of whom testified that whether or not he experienced symptoms of mental illness, John Fiorenza knew that rape and murder were wrong, and that is why he went to great lengths to cover up his crimes. Exactly. Exactly. Clearly. Yeah, clearly.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Both sides rested their cases on May 27th, and at 3.30 p.m., the jury retired for deliberation. However, after 11 hours, the jury remained deadlocked, primarily over whether or not Fiorenzo was insane when he committed the crime.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
If he was, they would have had the option of sending him to a state hospital for the rest of his life. But if he was deemed sane and found guilty, he would most likely receive the death penalty. Which I can understand why they were having a hard time with that. Having that decision on your own heart and head is heavy.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Right. But finally, after nearly 20 hours of deliberation, they did side with the prosecution, and they found John Fiorenza guilty of the murder and rape of Nancy Titterton. I agree with that. He seemed pretty unfazed by the verdict, but those close to him were outraged. His father stood up and shouted, It's not fair. He's crazy. He should not go to the chair. They should lock him up.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
course whatever they didn't finish just to just to like get some fuel for the next thing yeah and i'm pretty that's probably what happened yeah they're gross nasty saliva germs around that that's why they're always trying to drink out of my water bottle and i'm like get the fuck away from tt stuff it's true do not touch tt's water bottle i don't say that can you imagine oh my god i would never
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
So I feel like he's got to be locked up. Yeah, I agree. But on June 6, 1936, John Fiorenza appeared before the Court of General Sessions for sentencing, and he was formally sentenced to die in the electric chair.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
At the hearing, his attorney continued to push his insanity defense, telling reporters, he doesn't even know what all this is about. He was more anxious to know when I can visit him in the death house, which is sad in some sense, you know? Under New York law, though, a guilty verdict in a death penalty case automatically triggers an appeal.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
But like in the initial trial, the appeals process moved quickly. Not surprisingly, John's attorney insisted that although his client had killed Nancy, he had only done so because of what his psychiatrist referred to as a mental confusion. I don't think so. I don't think so either. I don't see this. I think he's possibly mentally ill, but I think he knew what he was doing was wrong.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
He tried to cover it up. He went to her house the day before, decided that he wanted to kill her, came back prepared to kill her, raped and killed her, and then disposed of evidence. Exactly. Exactly.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
I think he should spend the rest of his life in jail.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah. There was also multiple, if you rape somebody before you kill them, there's multiple times at which you can stop. Exactly. Before you kill them. And he didn't. And he didn't. So he went further and further. Exactly.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Fuck him. Fuck him. It's the part where his family talks about... Yeah, you feel bad for his family.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah, you have to. They are victims too in this whole thing. For sure. Arguing in favor of upholding the death penalty, though, William Dodge insisted, this man is a potential maniac. There is no reason for the state of New York to be cheated of the enforcement of the law by the pretense of insanity, which I kind of agree with. Although, again, don't agree with the death penalty.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
I completely agree. Ultimately, his appeal was denied. And on January 22nd, 1937, he was executed in the electric chair at Sing Sing Prison. Just prior to his death, he exclaimed, you don't know all I've been through in this place. I don't know why they don't give me a chance.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
But I did say the other day at dance class, I was like, no, no, no, this is a grown up drink because I'm drinking like, it's like armor colostrum. So I'm like, you guys probably shouldn't drink that. But I was like, oh, fuck. Everybody at all the other moms probably thought that I said like. You had like wine in your tumbler. I'm just sipping on the scissor at dance class.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
No, you can't. Because you already murdered her.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And then tried to cover it up and lie about it.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Fuck you, John. Such a wild case from start to finish, though. It is. The key star here is the detective work. Yes. It's early 1930s, and they had all this advanced, not advanced, but at the time very advanced, fingerprint technology and just the dedication of people who went back to the scene. Yeah. I found the investigation part of this so interesting. Oh, I think it's amazing.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
That's awful. I know. And her poor husband, too. Oh, it's awful. Stumbling home to that. Yeah, that's awful. Very, very tragic case. But very, very interesting on the investigation side, like you said. Yeah, for sure.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
but with all that being said we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird but not so weird that when you deliver something to somebody's house you decide that you're gonna rape and murder them because ew that's really fucking terrible and you should stop yourself from doing things like that bye don't be a dick self-control is important Thank you.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Every serving of cachava offers 25 grams of 100% plant-based protein, but that's not all. This all-in-one shake has fiber, quality fats, vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, and so much more. I love that I can tick so many boxes with just one delicious shake. If you know me, you know that vanilla and chai are my favorite flavors, and I like to combine them.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
You're good, but it's only the start of the season.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Liquid IV, of course, a sponsor. Hell yeah. The colostrum I'm taking is great. 10 out of 10 recommend. Not a doctor, but... And that's health. And wellness. With me being sick. And me not being sick.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
so let's get into it today brothers i have an older case but it's you know how we always are like we do the older cases because the way that they solve it is always like so interesting yes this case in particular the way they solve this case is actually wild like it took some it took some serious detective work and it took somebody going back to the scene to find something that really even like drove it home further oh i love the dedication yeah
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
So we're going to be talking today about the murder of Nancy Evans Titterton. And I just want to say, she sounds like she was, like, so cool. Aww. And just, like, sweet. Poor Nancy. And I feel bad because she just had her career, like, really start to take off. Like, she was really, like, climbing the ladder in the right direction and...
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
This crime, all crime, is obviously pretty senseless, but this one specifically was so senseless. So let's get into it. So Nancy Violet Evans was born in 1903 in Dayton, Ohio, to Frank and Stephanie Evans. From a very young age, she took a strong interest in reading and writing.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And after she graduated from high school in 1920, she decided she was going to get her degree in English at Antioch College. She crushed it there. She won multiple awards for her writing. And once she graduated from college in 1924, she went back home to Dayton. She worked briefly in a factory, but then moved on to run a small bookshop, but then decided she wanted a little bit more for herself.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
So she moved to the Big Apple, New York City, and she decided there she was going to pursue a literary career. Wow. Yeah, just rolling with it. Rolling with the literary punches. So when she got to New York, Nancy rented a small apartment in Greenwich Village, and she found a job as a bookseller at Lord & Taylor, which is funny to think about Lord & Taylor selling books. I know.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
But in her spare time, she focused on making connections in the literary world. She wrote book reviews for a bunch of New York newspapers, just writing anywhere she could. That's awesome. And really trying to get her name out there. And the work of writing book reviews back then wasn't really glamorous, but she did it so that it would keep her connected to her passion.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And after a few years, she was offered a job at Doubleday Books, which was one of the most prominent names in publishing at the time. And there she was instrumental in building the company's nascent but increasingly popular Crime Club series, which was a true crime series. That's pretty cool. Yeah, so she had an interest in that.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
One friend later told reporters, the principal thing about Nancy was that she was not flashy in any way. She'd rather discuss a new book, I think, than anything. She wasn't interested in politics or parties or clothes as most women are. So in 1927, Nancy met Louis Titterton, a British man who also loved literature and writing just as much as she did.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Lewis Titterton had been a star academic at Harvard and at Cambridge University, so a very educated man. He studied Middle Eastern languages there before he took a job as the assistant editor at Atlantic Monthly, which was a really, really impressive achievement for somebody who was still in his 20s.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
The job at Atlantic opened doors for him in the literary world, and within a few years, he moved on to a position as associate editor at the Macmillan Company, one of the biggest names in publishing as well. And like Nancy, he also spent his spare time writing book reviews. Huh. Which you just think of the two of them. And they're a good couple, don't worry. You just think of the two of them.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
But they also have chocolate, they've got matcha, and they've got coconut acai. I'm a big fan of the coconut acai as well. After drinking cachava first thing in the morning, because that's when I always drink it, I feel satiated for hours. I feel focused, calm, and ready to take on my day.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
I know, I was like, please tell me I can like them. Yeah, just like sitting at home writing book reviews together. That's just such a cozy life I felt they were living. I love that. They dated for two years, and then they got married in October of 1929 in a small ceremony at the little church around the corner, famous landmark in New York City.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And not long after their wedding, they moved to the Beekman Place Apartments on the east side of Manhattan. Now, in the few years that followed, Beekman Place would actually gain quite some notoriety for a series of unconnected murders, beginning in 1935 when Vera Stretz murdered her boyfriend. And then that was followed by Nancy Titterton's murder six months later in 1936.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And finally, the murder of Veronica Gideon in 1937, which we actually just recently covered. So, interesting. Jeez. Yeah. You just wonder what the energy was in that place. Yeah. Yeah. In a tragically ironic twist, actually just after moving into Beekman, Nancy wrote to a friend about how much she loved her new place. She said, I'm so glad to get out of Hell's Kitchen.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Even though we had bars on the window, I never felt safe there. Nothing could happen to anyone on Beekman Place.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Which very much could. Oh, no. But Nancy and Lewis had a lot of good years before tragedy visited Beekman Place. By then, Lewis had accepted a new job as the chief of the script division at NBC Radio. And for somebody who spent his entire professional life focused on literature and language, this new position was difficult.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
But as Harold Schechter wrote, Lewis was, quote, intent on elevating the cultural quality of radio programming. It's like really heady people, you know? At the same time, Nancy had made a major transition of her own. She actually left her job at Doubleday to focus on her own writing full-time. At first, her success was pretty slow to come.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
She published a few stories in various literary magazines, but she was really struggling to find her home as an author. Yeah. Then, in 1935, Story Magazine, which was a prestigious journal known for launching some of the biggest authors of the day, they offered to publish her short story called I Shall Decline My Head. It was a story about a, quote, old man adrift in dreams of the past.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
So the story actually caught the attention of some major players in the publishing world, and some of them called her a writer of exceptional literary merit.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah, absolutely. So after that, Nancy was offered a contract for her first novel, which was published by Story Press, a new publishing imprint of Story magazine. Damn. She had just really found big success writing.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
But unfortunately, it was short-lived. On the morning of April 10th, which was Good Friday, 1936, Lewis finished his breakfast around 8 in the morning and left to head into his office just a short time later. When he arrived, he found what he described as an amusing letter from a friend. So a little after 9 a.m., he called Nancy to tell her about the letter.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Something that I really love to do if I even want like a little bit more protein is just add a scoop of peanut butter to the vanilla and chai concoction that I make. And that, oh, is just scrum-diddly-umptious, honey. Cachava is offering our listeners 10% off on their subscription for a limited time. Just go to cachava.com slash morbid. spelled K-A-C-H-A-V-A, and get 10% off your first order.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
This was the first of two calls that Nancy got that morning. The other call came from her friend, Georgia Mansbridge. She spoke with Georgia for a few minutes and then hung up around 10.15 a.m. She and Georgia made dinner plans for that night, and Georgia later told reporters, I feel sure no one was in her apartment when we spoke.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Now, nobody heard anything from Nancy until about 1130 in the morning when Oneida Smithhead, a maid in the apartment just below the Tittertons, actually heard somebody in the building yell, Dudley, Dudley, Dudley. And then the voice suddenly went quiet. Dudley Mings was the building's handyman, so whoever this was was presumably calling out for him.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
According to author Harold Schechter, there was an urgency to the cry, but since the tenants routinely shouted for Ming's whenever a toilet overflowed, a ceiling light blew, or a sash window wouldn't open, the maid disregarded the cry, just thinking it was nothing more than that. Which you can understand. Yeah, of course.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
So a short time later, a delivery boy from a local dry cleaner also arrived at Beekman Place. He had a dress for Nancy. And he was under the impression that she would be home. But after ringing the bell several times and getting no answer, he left. Just was going to deliver the dress at a different time. Yeah. At 4.15 p.m., another delivery arrived.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
This time it was an upholster, Theodore Kruger and his assistant, John Fiorenza. They were there to deliver a love seat that Nancy had reupholstered. And after climbing the four flights of stairs, they were surprised to find that the Titterton's front door was actually open slightly.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Yeah. Kruger knocked on the door loudly and didn't get any response. But he assumed that maybe they left the door open for him so he could deliver the last seat. Like they knew this delivery was coming. So the two men entered and they set the sofa down. Kruger left the bill on the seat and he intended to call later.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
But as they were making their way downstairs to leave, he realized that he didn't have their phone number. So he wasn't going to be able to call them and make good on this. So he went back up to the apartment to get the number before he and his assistant left. Yeah. He later told the police, I found the phone in the bedroom and took the number.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
And as he was turning to leave, Kruger noticed that the bathroom light was on and that the door was slightly open. So he went over and knocked, which pushed the door open just even wider. Standing in the doorway, he could see a woman's nude leg hanging over the side of the tub. He called out to her loudly, but there was no sign of movement.
Morbid
Episode 628: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton
Now even more concerned, he inched closer to the tub and he looked inside. And he later said, my knees began shaking and I felt sick. I shouted to Johnny, my God, something's happened to the missus. Call the police. So Kruger's assistant did as he was told.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Hey weirdos, it's Ash here, ready to share a little secret. Have you heard of Wondery Plus? With ad-free episodes and one week early access, it's like having an all-access pass to our lighthearted nightmare. So come join us on the dark side and try Wondery Plus today. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Get 20% off your first order of Liquid IV when you go to liquidiv.com and use code MORBID at checkout. That's 20% off your first order when you shop better hydration today using promo code MORBID at liquidiv.com. Let's face it, after a night with drinks, you don't bounce back the next day like you used to. You have to make a choice. Either have a great night or have a great next day.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
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Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
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Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
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Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
The note read, you dirty fish peddling bums, leave this innocent girl, Helen Quigley, alone, and get the right ones, which is nobody but us. And we are going to give Mr. Hogan, the manager of Rolston's on 7AV, another visit, as we got two checks we couldn't cash. And also ask Bohack's manager, did I ruin his cash register? Also, I will visit him again, as I broke a perfectly good automatic on it.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
I beg of us to do better and to speak like this again. To speak better. Call people dirty fish peddling bums. Honestly, that's a great insult. I can't think of something better.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
the depression looming and all that shit and prohibition. But they added so much to it to make it worthwhile. I was going to say, it was the stuff like this, like the linguistics of the time. It's so good. So good. So the note was signed, the bobbed-haired bandit and companion. I love that she called herself the bob-haired bandit.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Yeah, I think they had already dubbed her at that point, and she was like, it's me.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Companion. That egg over there. I love it. So this note seemed to have been written explicitly for the purpose of proving the innocence of Helen Quigley and her man Apples there. Good for her. She's trying to get that girl out. She's like, it's me. At that point, those Apples and Helen Quigley had been arraigned on robbery and assault charges. Oh. So they're like headed for the big house.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Oh, damn. But by the time they received the note, Captains Carey and Sullivan had actually started to question whether Helen was actually guilty. And the latest robbery at the Weinsteins, seemed to indicate that she probably wasn't the bandit. So after Helen Quigley and Apple Kowalski's arraignment, I keep wanting to say arrangement. You can say that. It's arranged. It's arranged.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Their arraignment and the announcement that they would be held on $20,000 bond. Another letter arrived for the police, and this one was more forceful than the last. The writer said, Wow. She said, Wow, you're real dumb. Pretty much. Unfortunately, the note had the opposite effect that the writer intended.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
The judge actually doubled Quigley and Kowalski's bond and was pretty certain that the writer was just a third accomplice trying to weaken their case against the pair. But as the robberies continued, so did the letters to the police and to members of the press. On January 22nd, the editor of the Standard Union received a note that read, I must say we have a wonderful police force.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
They must all be asleep. Cold nights are the best to stick people up. The cops and bulls have hangouts and are always in on cold, wet nights. I passed two cops and bulls standing on Fulton Street and Bedford Avenue Saturday night. I asked one of them where Keeney's Theater was and they directed me.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
I almost laughed in their faces to think they were talking to the one they were looking for and can plainly see they blind or asleep.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Yeah. Like, damn. I love what she's doing. Damn. So by late January, store clerks and residents were seeing the bandit and her companion all over Brooklyn. On January 21st, a grocer in Brooklyn claimed he'd been robbed of $600 by the pair, who escaped in a car that they had parked around the corner.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
their work you know i mean like they're you know what they use to put food on their tables and like the clerks being scared to go to work exactly like none of that is cool her notes are hilarious to the cops just to clarify yeah but that same night uh that the other robbery happened four quote boy bandits ranging in age from 14 boy bandits boy bandits
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
ranging in age from 14 to 18 held up several stores in the bronx and took more than 700 which would be 13 000 in today's get it together everyone i'm like how did you hide that from your parents damn now even though there was no apparent connection between these and the other holdups the press still subtly implied that there was definitely an epidemic of violence and robberies yeah being perpetrated by young people across the city damn it's kind of just a fact
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
One journalist wrote, every other night or so, the frightened proprietor of a chain grocery store would back away from a crouching, snarling little demon whose eyes blazed over the sights of an ugly automatic, a foul-mouthed fury who but a moment before had seemed in the background. Wow. Why can't we do better? Why can't we talk like this? Why can't we?
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Shut the fuck, why? I need an explanation on that one. Call them elbows. I love that.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
I love that so much. Yeah. Well, with each new bandit letter published in the paper, the public had new material to inform the growing mockery and the jokes aimed at the police who were unable to catch the pair.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
After a run of particularly rainy days in late January, the Standard Union joked, if this weather keeps up, the girl with the bobbed hair may try her luck in getting away with a red-hot stove. Whoa. They said, the cops don't really work well during the rain, so she's going nuts. Yeah. The increase in public criticism was very clearly starting to irritate city officials.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
In an article published in the New York Herald, Mayor John F. Hyland angrily told a reporter, there isn't any bobbed-haired bandit. That's only a myth. You're just flim-flamming us.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Yeah, she should stay in the kitchen where she belongs. Whether he genuinely believed that or not, there was indeed a bobbed-haired bandit, and the failure to capture her was definitely starting to make the NYPD look like a bunch of idiots.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
And they were pissed. They were so mad. So on the night of January 26th, a contingent of 200 police officers, picture that, 200, scattered across neighborhoods all over Brooklyn intent on capturing the bob-teared bandit and her companion. I love companion.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Believing that the pair were sure to strike that night, as they had the previous five Saturdays, officers stood watch outside of grocery stores, drug stores, and even delis around the city, just waiting for that bandit to make a mistake.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
And at that same time, another large group of officers were assigned to watch over the home of NYPD Commissioner Richard Enright after one of the bandit's notes referenced making a visit to the man's home. Oh, damn. But by the time the police had spread out their net, the bandit had already robbed eight businesses of nearly $2,000, which would be $37,000 in today's cash.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
And showed no signs of slowing down or even losing any kind of confidence. Because why slow down? They're not catching you. It's raining. I gotta go. Yeah, it's raining. However, despite that large-scale effort, there was no sign of the bandit that January 26th night. And the next day, the press reported on yet another failure by the police.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
In the meantime, John Hyland expressed his complete support in Commissioner Enright and the NYPD, writing, It has always seemed to me a very regrettable feature of life in New York that some of the newspapers, consciously or unconsciously, aid in attempts to dislodge a fearless police commissioner. Wow. She's like, it's the newspaper's fault. Yeah, obviously.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
That we can't catch this person who doesn't exist. You're the one who's saying that she doesn't even exist. Exactly. But now, as far as he was concerned, the bobbed-haired bandit wasn't the problem. The press was. He already said that he thought she was a myth created by the press to sell papers.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
And he later said, true, occasionally a girl may commit a larceny, but there's surely no occasion for the scareheads about girl bandits. The scareheads. The scareheads. nor for moralists to say that the town is infested with them.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
I was like, no, no. I was like, I'm going somewhere with this.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
That is exactly the energy that he is delivering. Girl bandits are fake. Girl bandits have cooties. No, there's only boy bandits. You can't be a girl bandit. No. You're stupid. That's so funny.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
But he said he was confident that if they could crack down on the press and prevent them from fueling this public hysteria, the bobbed-haired bandit would just disappear and people would go on with their lives. Yeah. Because the press had no interest or reason to stop reporting on the bandit.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
As long as she continued to pull off these robberies around the city and as long as readers were interested in her antics, they were going to keep publishing the stories to sell those papers. Yeah. And they didn't give a shit how it made the police look. They were like, make yourselves look better.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
By early February, the local papers honed in on a new theory detectives had been developing, and it was that despite all reports, the bobbed-haired bandit was not a woman at all, but perhaps a young man disguising himself by wearing young woman's clothing. Because once again, there's no way that this is a girl bandit. They said a girl is not defying us like this. It must be a man. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
While some may have found the theory more credible than others, just as many dismissed it as nonsense, noting that many of the witnesses, quote, described the bandit's feet and shoes as typically feminine and her walk as characteristic of a member of the weaker sex. Adorable.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Now the bandit and her companion, they did lay low for a few weeks and that was until early February when they were back at it again.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
She's going to go commit a caper. Is that a crime? Yeah. A robbery? A crime. I love it. Yeah. Well, they were back on the job and they landed themselves right back on the front pages of the New York papers. A little after 10 p.m. on the evening of February 3rd, the bobbed-haired bandit entered an H.C.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Bohat grocery store on Lafayette Street and approached the counter wearing what the press described as a saucy turban trimmed with fur. Oh.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
A saucy turban. Now, despite the late hour, there were still several store clerks behind the counter and actually three customers waiting in line. When she reached the counter, the bandit asked the butcher, Peter Crossman, for a whole chicken. She said, one whole chicken, please. Me too. Same.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
He disappeared into the deli and when he returned with the chicken, the bandit pulled a revolver from her coat pocket and said, one peep and you're a dead butcher. She said, hey, grab a little air.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Grab a little air. I just love that she made like a chicken joke. Yeah, I love that. I love it. And you're a dead butcher. So the butcher dropped the chicken on the floor and threw his hands up in the air because again, he did care. Yeah, he grabbed a little air. The bandit then whistled and within seconds, her companion was by her side, pistol in hand.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
And I just picture her doing the like, the pinkies in the mouth kind of whistle.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
She then directed Cosman and the other clerks to the back of the store. While the bandit kept everybody at the back of the store, the man went through the cash register, stuffing bills into his pockets. $150 in total that night. Today, that'd be about $2,700.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Once they emptied the registers, they backed their way out of the store, loudly declaring that they would shoot anybody who made a move or yelled for the police. And once they got outside, they just jumped in their car and they sped off. And they said bye? Yeah. A few days later, police arrested 19-year-old Mary Cody for this robbery, and they declared they had finally got her.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
This was their bobbed-haired bandit. Doubt it. They claimed Moore wasn't acting alone, but rather, she was the leader of a gang of bandits that included her boyfriend, Matthew Boyd. Boyd. Boyd. That's you, my girl. I love a boy. And me, my girl. and a man by the name of Richard Gibbons.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Mary Cody and the two men were accused of several taxi cab holdups in the area, but the only evidence connecting her to the bandit robberies was the fact that she owned a seal fur coat and wore her hair in a bobbed style.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
She had a coat and a bob. I just want you to let that sink in. That's it. Have you ever grown tired of searching for your favorite movies and TV shows across numerous streaming accounts? It's so frustrating to have all your favorite shows live across multiple logins and apps. I'm trying to watch one show. I'm like, wait, what's my login here?
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
No, I'm not saying the government. I would like aliens to come through and pick me up because I'm scared. Because I'm scared. Can you pick me up, aliens?
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
And unfortunately, when their robbery victims were shown photographs of this woman and her two accomplices, quote unquote, they all denied that she was the bandit. They said, no, that's not the girl. They said, no, she's just got a coat. And they said, okay, fine. And they arrested another young woman just one day later. They said, all right, Mary, it's not you, but I think it's Rose Moore.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Yeah, me too. We're going to go arrest her. Yeah. And they arrested her after her mother reported her missing to the police. When a detective caught up with Rose, she was wearing a seal skin coat and a pink hat over her bobbed ass hair. Over her bobbed ass hair.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
The arresting detective told the Brooklyn Eagle he was, quote, satisfied in his own mind that Rosemore and the notorious bobbed haired bandit Wiley and Defiant were one in the same. But the next day, it was clear she had nothing to do with the holdups and she was released from custody.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Her brother, Edward, who actually was the one to report his suspicions of her to the police, later said, Rose is a good girl, but fond of fun, and I suppose I was too strict with her. My sister had no record of any kind against her, of course, and it was really my fault that she received this unpleasant publicity.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
I'm just like, well... It is what it is. I got that too. It's so funny. I had like... Welcome to my therapy sessions. I had like the worst end of the world anxiety for a long time, like especially this year. Yeah. I think just like the mental state that I was in really fed to that. Yeah. Fed that. But now I'm just like... I feel like, one, people have always thought the world was ending.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Well, by this point, Helen Quigley and Mary Cody were actually still in custody on suspicion of being... These poor people. They're just, like, they're arresting more people while they have all the bobbed-haired girls in little holding cells. All of them. Police were arresting or detaining anybody who fit the description of the bandit and her companion. Desperate to close the case.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
And her companion. They were just desperate to close the case. They wanted to end all the public criticism. Meanwhile, as detectives interrogated Rose Moore, the real bandit continued writing notes, just taunting the police and condemning the press for printing lies about her.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
After an interview with the supposed bandit appeared in the Brooklyn Eagle, the editor received a note that read, "'Dear sir, the interview you printed about the bobbed-haired bandit was a fake and you ought to be exposed. It seems to me that you would have more to do than sit down and just make things up. Personally, I think you are a bum.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
I have never been interviewed, as a matter of a fact, and I defy you. P.S. I also defy the police. A photographic copy of this letter has been turned over to the police of the popular street station.'" I think you are a bum. We need to start calling people bums again.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Personally, I think you are a bum. Yeah. It should be said that while the bobbed-haired bandit did write a lot of notes to the police and the press, there were countless other fake notes written by anonymous senders. It's not always known which is which, but... But all of them are... They have such zest and flair.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
This is too much. I love it so much. I wish we were dressed like swanky. I know.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
We could just read regular tales and just decide to be 1920s.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
I like it. Well, regardless, the letters became so popular with readers that the Brooklyn Eagle just continued collecting them and publishing them now on a weekly basis. Damn. Much to the irritation of the police. I imagine.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Because not only did the letters make detectives look foolish for their inability to catch the bandit, but they also reminded New Yorkers that crime was still a big problem in the city, and that fact reflected very poorly on police commissioner Enright. After a few weeks of downtime, the bandit popped up again in late February, this time wielding a pistol in each hand. She got one too. Oh, damn.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
And this was when she and her companion robbed the James Butler grocery in Brooklyn. By that point, the public had started mistakenly seeing the bandit everywhere. So when the woman entered the store wearing her, quote, three-quarter length sealskin coat and her black turban, one of the customers shouted, the bob-haired bandit! She's arrived! Here she is! Ha ha!
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Absolutely. And that helps me immensely. Literally always. It's fine. And then, can't do anything about it. Yeah. So, like, why? Why stress about it? My therapist, like, really did some great fucking work on my mind. She did. Yeah. Shout out to her. Shout out to her. Shout out to all my therapists throughout the years. There's been like eight of them. Pour one out for all your therapists.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
The pair went through their usual routine, corralling the customers and the clerks to the back of the store while one of them went through the registers and then they backed out of the store with their guns drawn and said, don't tell anybody. And they said, oh my god, it's really a skirt. What does that one mean? She's a real skirt. She's a real skirt? What's it mean? A woman. A woman?
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Oh my god, it's a woman. It's a skirt bandit. As they made their way out of the door, the bandit shouted, Give us ten minutes to get away or you'll be sorry! This time, the total takeaway was less than $60. But still a good sum of money. That'd be about a thousand bucks today. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
The latest string of robberies led the police to devise a new strategy, though, casting an even wider net and questioning nearly anyone who met even one of the bandits descriptors. However, while this strategy was intended to catch the criminal, it had the unintended effect of scaring or just straight up inconveniencing the female members of the public.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
By the end of February, detectives had put so much emphasis on the bandit's hair and clothing that women all over the city started altering their appearances so that they wouldn't be mistaken for the bandit.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Yeah. One hairstylist told a reporter, girls won't bob their hair anymore, and the ones who have theirs already bobbed are letting it grow as fast as they can.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Every night they're like, please grow faster. Yeah. That's how that works. They're using rosemary oil. Biology. The sentiment was shared by others in the beauty industry and only led to more criticism of the police and of course their inability to catch this bobbed haired bandit. I love her.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
There's a lot in life that feels like it should be guaranteed, but it just isn't. Things like your friends being on their way when they text you, or getting out the same number of socks from the dryer that you put in. AT&T is introducing a new guarantee, the AT&T Guarantee, because there's a lot in life that's not guaranteed.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Another stylist told reporters, it's a shame the way the police are playing hide and seek with the girl and letting her out with them all the time. I love this. A police force of bobbed haired girls would catch her soon enough. She said, fuck that. Why don't we take all these bobbed-haired arrestees and make them the police? Yeah, they're out here. They're tooting the wrong ringer. Yeah. You know?
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Is that like barking up the wrong tree? Asking the wrong person. I love it.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Fortunately for the NYPD, it would not come to that, but I do love the image that conjures.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
I love it. I love it. I want to be one. The robberies continued into March, and of course, so did the sensational press coverage. Soon enough, the bandit was being celebrated by most as a kind of anti-hero and obviously an early feminist figure pushing back on the suffocating norms and restrictions imposed by a world ruled of stinky, stupid men. There you go.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Pour one out for each of them. Each one of them. Each one. Each one. Well, I have an interesting case for us today that has nothing to do with therapy and everything to do with robbery.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
By the end of March, Commissioner Enright was fucking pissed and the NYPD and him had become so frustrated with the situation that he started to speak out to the press about how he might have to step into the investigation and bring the bandit in himself. He said, I had about reached the conclusion that I would have to go out and get her myself. I'm not so sure that she is not a short-haired man.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Oh, see, we can't just give it. It's a skirt. I'm like, no, she's a skirt and she's getting the best of you, Commissioner. And you're just upset about it. His comments were aimed at the critics of the police, but it's also clear from his statement that the bandit's gender was at least some degree of a threat to him. Oh, yeah. Otherwise, he would have never called it into question. Exactly.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Asshole. I'm saying. For months, the bandit and her companion had been holding up drugstores. My favorite part, to be honest. Her companion. And groceries around the city, all without firing a single shot or harming anybody. No shots had been fired up to this point. Which, thankful for that.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
But that all changed on April 1st when the pair attempted to rob the payroll department of the National Biscuit Company, which is a company that I would love to support. I was going to say that place is near and dear to my heart. Same.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Now, the heist was to be the biggest of their career thus far, not only because it was the biggest supposed to be the biggest payout, but also because it occurred in broad daylight while a number, a large number of clerks were present. That morning, the couple actually hired a car to take them to the biscuit company, which I'm going to do that too. And I'm not going to rob them.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
I'm just going to buy a lot of biscuits. I'm getting a car to go to the biscuit company right now.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Nabisco. Oh, my God. I never knew that. Mikey just told us Nabisco. Mikey just cracked the code. I never knew that. National Biscuit Company. What the fuck? I'm going to support them. Boom. Boom. Boom. When they arrived to Nabisco, the man pointed a gun at the driver, Arthur West, and told him to get in the back of the car.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
We told you we were going to give you a little palate cleanser-y kind of thing. Yeah, it's definitely palate cleanser-y. This has just like... Put them up, fella.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Once West had been tied up and placed on the floor in the back seat, the bandit took over the wheel and they continued down the street to the National Biscuit warehouse. Nabisco. Wuh-huh. Wuh-huh. Once they reached their destination, they parked on the street outside the warehouse and entered through the front door and climbed the stairs straight to the administrative offices.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
So on the second floor, the young woman walked to the caged-in payroll office, and she stepped up to the desk and handed the clerk, Nathan Mazzo, an envelope. Mazzo opened the envelope and took out the paper inside, but it appeared to be blank. Oh. Oh. The payroll office erupted into chaos as the clerks and secretaries started running, trying to escape the gunman.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
But the bandit kept focused on Mazzo, and the other man corralled the employees and forced them into a smaller office just adjacent to the payroll cage. Now, as the staff began filing into the small office, Mazzo was last in line, and he appeared to make a move for the bandit's gun, grabbing her arm when he passed by her.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
The bandit fell back away from Mazzo, tumbling over a chair and falling to the floor. Seeing what was happening, her companion fired two shots, hitting Mazzo in the arm, causing the man obviously to scream and then the scene to erupt into chaos.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Because fire has now been... You've now heard gunshots. Exactly. With everything having gone awry, the pair fled down the stairs and out to the car with several National Biscuit drivers following behind them now.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Acting high-toned. Gotta keep it chilled. You've got to chill out. How do you say chill out in 1920s? I think it's like, hold on.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Yeah, there's so many quotes throughout this. And I don't know if I'm great at a transatlantic accent, but I'm definitely going to try.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Pipe down. Keep your hair on. Why do I feel like your ma right now? She doesn't really talk like that, but like kind of.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Well, nobody's hair was on. Everybody was fucking terrified. They were getting swelled. They were getting rightfully swelled. They were acting way too high-toned. An ambulance and police arrived at the scene a short time later, and Nathan Mazza was taken to the hospital for treatment. A few blocks away, a patrolman came upon the Packard that the pair had arrived in.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
And the driver, Arthur West, was still tied up on the floor in the back.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
No, that's fair. I'm also really tired. My heels. No, it wasn't good.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
17. We just did the highlights here. Holy shit. The holdup of the National Biscuit Company, Nabisco, changed everything for the bandit and her companion. Wow. Where she was spoken of as an anti-hero. Now the papers were accusing her and her companion as attempted murderers and announcing quite inaccurately that Mazo's wounds will, quote, probably prove fatal. They didn't. Okay.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
He was shot, which is very wrong. Absolutely. He was shot in the arm.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
He's not going to die. A few days later, he himself would capitalize on the spotlight, giving interviews where he heroically claimed that he'd been reaching for the gun, not trying to remove the bandit's veil, as had been suggested by the police and the press. He told a reporter, believe me, if I got that gun, I would have saved the police a lot of trouble. I'd have killed them both.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
That's what I'm going to do next time. I'm going to get the gun and I'm going to shoot her. Honestly, I probably would have been as insufferable coming out of that.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
I'm getting ya. Yeah. You shoot me in the arm, you're done. Yeah. But if Nathan Mazzo was fantasizing about a second visit from the bandit and her companion, he would be sadly disappointed. After months of robberies and obviously very intense press coverage... the bobbed-haired bandit and her companion seemingly disappeared.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
For weeks, NYPD officers and detectives spread out across the city in search of the bobbed-haired bandit and her companion. But the robberies had stopped altogether, and there was no sign of the infamous duo anywhere.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
wow finally in mid-april investigators got a break when they learned that the parkers who were the couple that hired the car and the driver that took them to the biscuit company were 20 year old celia cooney 20 20 year old celia cooney and her 25 year old husband ed ed ed honestly yeah her companion is this
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
The couple lived in Brooklyn until recently when they gave up their apartment and told their landlord that they were moving down to Florida. NYPD detectives contacted authorities in Florida who put out an alert across the state. And in the early hours of April 21st, Celia and Ed Cooney were arrested at a rooming house in Jacksonville.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
I liked it. Yeah, it was, you know, I do what I can. Yeah. I'm going to punch Ash in the face after this. Guys, she hits me a lot all the time. It's crazy. Yeah. I don't know how to transition out of that. I was like, where do we go from here? Leave all the lights on, please. All right, all right, all right. So robbery, transatlantic accent, and ladies. And what is this case called?
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Wow. So now who exactly were Celia and Ed Cooney? Who were they? Well, Celia was born into extreme poverty and raised along with seven brothers and sisters by a single mother who relied on her children to beg for money in the street. That's how bad things were. So she kind of, this was in her bones already.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
For most of her younger years, the family lived in a coal cellar until Celia was taken in by an aunt in Brooklyn when she was 14. In 1918, she moved out on her own and a few years later in 1923, she met her now husband, Ed, at a vaudeville theater on Fulton Street. That's so 1920s.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
And it's a beautiful love story, to be honest. She later remembered that night saying, I thought I'd blow 30 cents taking in a show and hoping to run into some friends. But by the end of the night, she struck up a conversation with the man next to her. And as the picture came to an end, she had fallen in love with Ed's quote unquote wonderful smile. Oh my god, right? That's actually really sweet.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
They dated for a few months before they decided to get married on May 18th, 1923, and Celia said, Wow. At the same time, Ed was working as a welder for a small garage in Brooklyn, and while the salary wasn't great, it was enough to pay a small rent on the small room that they shared in a rooming house. But in September, Celia learned that she was pregnant, and that news changed everything.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
She told Ed, I'm not going to have my baby raised in a little two-by-four hole like I was, insisting that they needed to find a more suitable home for their family, and Ed promised that he would find a way to make it happen. This was how. This sounds like such a like sweet story at first. You're just like, you like root for them. Yeah. And then they just said, you know how we could do that?
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
And you said, oh no. This was how Celia and Ed Cooney became the bobbed haired bandit and her companion. Wow. And her companion Ed. First, it all seemed like this strange fantasy to the young couple. Celia said, I had been reading magazines and books about girl crooks and bandits. Girl crooks. Girl crooks and bandits.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
And it began to seem like a game or play acting after I'd really came home with the guns. It was more exciting than anything I'd ever thought I'd do. Wow. The couple said they never intended to hurt anybody and they never wanted to. The shooting at the biscuit company was completely unexpected. And it was an unconscious reaction from Ed when he thought his pregnant wife was in danger.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Get everything done. Get everything done. Yeah. I think his reaction was a somewhat natural instinct, I guess. He was just trying to protect his pregnant wife. His pregnant wife.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Precisely. He told police, I thought she had been struck or maybe cut and I fired through the door at Mazzo who fell. My girl was down and I had to rush in. I picked her up and carried her out. And if they hadn't already planned to go to Florida after one final heist, the reports in the papers the next day certainly would have prompted them to run.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Among the details of the holdup and the shooting were detailed descriptions of both Celia and Ed, along with orders from Commissioner Enright to, quote, shoot her on sight if necessary.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
damn which is like i don't think that's necessary but yeah without the money from the biscuit hold up life in florida wasn't much better than what they had in new york when they first got married after spending most of their money on train and boat fares to get to jacksonville the two had run out of money and they vowed not to commit any more holdups celia said we had less than 50 left and my baby was coming soon which would cost money the bandit stuff was over we never even thought of trying that again
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
So Ed set out to find work as a mechanic in Jacksonville, but by then their descriptions had made it to the papers up and down the East Coast and then would be followed by their actual names. So they knew it was only a matter of time before law enforcement caught up with them.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
It has a fun name. It's called, and you already know because you pressed the episode, but for those of you who didn't read it, the Bobbed Haired Bandit. See, that's what I'm talking about. The Bobbed Haired Bandit. That's what we need after the Blackout Ripper. And you know what? I have a fuck-ass bob right now. You do have a fuck-ass bob. So I feel seen.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
A few days after their arrest, Ed and Celia were brought back to New York, much to the delight of the New York press, who were happy to have their main story back in the city. The pair were quickly arraigned on charges of armed robbery and assault where they indicated their willingness to plead guilty to as many as 10 robberies.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
But they both maintained that they only started robbing stores in order to afford their baby and give Ed to find a better paying job. Give him some time to do that. Celia proudly told the court that the world owed them a living, and she said, we did not want our baby born in an unfinished room. We needed money to get furniture and set up our own home.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
And Ed said, I had been reading in the newspapers of numerous robberies, and I decided I might get enough money that way to fix us up. Damn. Although enthusiasm for the couple had waned slightly once they were identified, Celia and Ed still had a fair share of fans and more than a little sympathy. When they arrived to New York from Florida, their train was met by a mob of onlookers.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Hundreds of people rushed the train stores just in an effort to get a look at the bandit and her companion. Oh, I believe it. And more than a few of them were saddened to hear that just a few days before being brought back to New York, Celia had given birth to her baby and and the baby unfortunately passed away a few days later. Oh, that's sad. Yeah, the baby was buried in Florida.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Detectives, meanwhile, had a hard time believing that Celia Cooney was the bobbed-haired bandit who had plagued them for months. If you see her, she's just this tiny little thing. She's so little. Friends and neighbors reported to investigators that Ed also was one of the nicest guys they knew, and they never would have suspected him to be an armed robber.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Wow. There's a lot to unpack there. And an anonymous source interviewed by the press also had questionable things to say about Celia. They said she would talk to men on the phone who had Italian names. And I had the suspicion then that she was talking to members of the underworld. That's the way she struck me. These men had Italian names. Like maybe she's just friends with Italians.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
In the days after the arraignment, a new narrative was emerging in the press. Now that she had been unmasked, the bobbed-haired bandit was no longer a symbol of the feminist revolution. Now people just thought she was a low-class degenerate who had duped her husband into being her criminal accomplice.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
We didn't plan that. No. A few days after their arraignment, Judge George Martin announced that he wanted the pair to be evaluated by psychiatrists after receiving concerning letters from members of Ed's family. According to the letters, Ed had, quote, shown signs of a disordered mentality since childhood, and he displayed apparent inability to grasp a situation. Oh. Which is interesting.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
That is interesting. Celia, on the other hand, was described in dismissive and scathing terms. The press claimed that she, quote, had begun to visualize the unwritten part of the detective stories of which she is so fond of. She looks forward to the sentencing in court. Its dramatic possibilities appeal to her.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
So there's, like, she's wrapped up in this crime fantasy world, really.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
The psychiatrist's opinions of Celia were no kinder than the press had been. Celia, he claimed, was the head of the operation, while Ed was, quote, "...usually in the background, and his function was to smash the cash registers and gather in the loot, while his wife took center stage." The psychiatrist told a reporter there was something abnormal and not womanly about her actions.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
And my hairdresser just had her baby, so I'm gonna have a fuck-ass bob for longer than I thought, which is totally fine. Welcome to the world, T. But it was the perfect time to do this story. Absolutely. I'm cementing in my fuck-ass bobdom and let's go.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
She was acting under an impulse that was apparently unnatural. And in every case, she dominated the man who was with her. She was the director and he was simply a tool.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
I should reevaluate my life plan, I guess. A few weeks later, on May 6th, Celia and Ed appeared before Judge Martin, where they pleaded guilty to charges of robbery and assault. Each was sentenced to 10 years in prison. Ed went to Sing Sing, and Celia went to Auburn Correctional Facility, and they both had the opportunity for parole after seven years.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Before leaving the courtroom, Celia wrote one last note, this one to the judge, in the hopes that he would share it with the press. And the New York Times shared it. She wrote, To those girls who think they would like to see their names in the paper as mine has been, or think they would like to do what I have done, let me just say, don't try to do it. You don't know what you will suffer.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
While I smile, my heart is breaking in me. Ooh. She was just lost.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Very bad choices. Very bad choices. But I do have this weird sympathy for her.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Yeah. But what she, again, the moral of the story is what she did was wrong.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Now, in late October 1931, Celia and Ed Cooney were each granted parole on the condition that they find suitable employment. Unfortunately for Ed, that was going to be pretty difficult. He'd had an accident in the prison machine shop, and that had resulted in his arm being amputated. Oh, damn. Yeah. He sadly died from tuberculosis just five years later. Oh, poor Ed. I know.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Celia did manage to find work as a typist, and she remarried in the mid-1940s and just kind of did her best to stay out of the public eye. She relocated to Florida, and she died from natural causes in 1992. Damn. Isn't that crazy? Holy shit. Yeah, she lived a long life.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Fuck-ass Bobdom. I like it. Our hashtag's still a thing. Use that. Let's go. I'm old. All right. A little past 9.30 on the evening of January 5th, 1924, one Lester Loudon. That's his name. Lester. Lester. Isn't that a cute name? Huh. Like Lester Holt. I love him. Lester Loudon. Lester Loudon. He was working at the Thomas Rulston Grocery in Park Slope, Brooklyn. Oh, damn. He said...
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
And we hope you keep it weird. I don't know. That was my best. Not so weird that you try a transatlantic accent and you really fail miserably at that one. Thank you.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
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Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
who's that girl in her fuck ass bob he didn't even know who madonna was yet so it was crazy but the woman approached the counter where he was standing and she had her hands in her coat pockets and she just said hello can i have a dozen eggs i can't do transatlanticism so it's Hashtag death cab for cutie. It's a great song. It really is. It gets you crying. Oh, it does. Oh, all right.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Well, as Loudon was wrapping up the eggs for this beautiful young woman, she took a few steps back from the counter and pulled out a 25 automatic pistol from that seal fur coat. And she shouted at him, stick him up quick. She did like a Mae West style.
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Wait, you're good at it. Don't do that. This is my episode and not yours. But he immediately threw them hands in the air like he did care. He cared very much in that moment.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
He was obviously focused on the woman in front of him with a giant pistol. But he also noticed that in the time it had taken him to get the gun, What? I was just going to say eggs, but then my mouth went to say ass. I don't know. It's a romantic vibe in this fucking low grocery store. It's the end of the year. I'm so tired.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
i'm like but did she get the eggs she didn't want the eggs i want the eggs and the time it takes to get the eggs i'm getting eggs today happy eggs yay me too a man had entered the store and was now corralling the other clerks to the back of a store like he was like everybody back here another woman everybody back here now yeah The woman motioned for Loudon to join the other clerks.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
She was like, go on, get back there. And she held her gun on all of them. And the man shouted to her, hold him back, as he started rifling through the register, stuffing bills and handfuls of coins into his pocket. That night, also, one of the clerks hadn't pushed the cash envelope all the way into the safe, so they were also able to get that as well. Oh, shit.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Once they grabbed all the cash in the store, $680 in total back then, which doesn't sound like a ton, that would be $12,545 today. Holy shit. Because this is 1924. The roaring 20s. They get all that money and they started backing away in the direction of the door. And the man yelled, don't make a move. If you want your head blown off, just try to follow us out. Oh, I liked that one.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Because he's backing up with guns. He said, if you want your head blown off, just try to follow us out. Don't make a move. Don't make any moves. Outside, they jumped into their car that was parked across the street and they drove off, leaving the six clerks just huddled in the back of the store like, what the fuck just happened here? Damn. And probably traumatized. Probably.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
So to the police and the public, the robbery of the grocery store wasn't that shocking. It wasn't that surprising. The economy was trending downward in New York at the time. We're entering the Great Depression. It was pretty jazzy. Yeah. Shit was popping off. A lot of men were out of work. It was also the time of prohibition.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
So crime in general was on the rise between bootleggers and organized crime rings. It was fucking wild in the New York streets.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
In New York, the press dubbed 1923 the gunman's year, noting that 270 murders had been committed with guns that year, many in the commission of armed robbery. So this, unfortunately, wasn't like a new concept to anybody. Yeah. Yeah. And all of this culminated in a culture of criminality that New Yorkers simply came to accept as a reality of life in the city at this point.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
On a smaller level, it kind of reminds me of what you were talking about with the blackouts in the Blackout River story. It's like the setting and the time period really add to the vibe of the overall story. Yeah, absolutely.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
So while most people weren't super interested in the news of the robbery, what did catch people's attention was the fact that one of the robbers and the one who seemed to take the lead was a woman. And not just a woman, but she was young and she was fashionable. She was hot. She was hot. She was a hot girl. She was smoking. She did hot shit, like robbing grocery stores.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
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Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Don't do that. Yeah, don't do that. But for many New Yorkers, especially the older residents, the woman's clothing and specifically her hairstyle were very symbolic of this youth culture that was emerging during this specific period. You know who I'm talking? I'm talking flappers. Flappers. Flappers were young, sexually liberated women, especially compared to generations before them.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
And they just didn't give a shit when it came to things like dancing, drinking, and mixed gender socialization.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
They were talking to boys. She's committing capers over here. It's crazy. According to author Stephen Duncombe, older generations came to view the bobbed hairstyle as a quote, are you ready? Symptom of the mentally defective.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
The bobbed hairstyle was a symptom of the mentally defective, and they even blamed this hairstyle for quote-unquote breaking up marriages. Absolutely. And then I wrote in my notes, today we call it a fuck-ass bob. A fuck-ass bob. And I got one. So the outrages over flappers and supposedly loose women was pretty much just like a moral panic, very similar to satanic panic.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
It's when the older generations are like, oh my God, the youth is crazy. It's always happened. Yeah. But the fact that one of these robbers appeared to fall into that category of crazy youth only strengthened the belief among many that young people were heading in a very dangerous and even criminal direction.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
So already under pressure to do something about street crime in the city, Brooklyn police acted very quickly. And within a week, they arrested 22-year-old Helen Quigley, a former burlesque dancer. She was just living with her father in Brooklyn. A few days earlier, her boyfriend, Vincent Apples Kowalski. This is such a case. What a time to be alive. What a time. I'm dating Apples Kowalski.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
So a few days before she had been arrested, Apples there had been picked up on suspicion of robbery and wasted no time in confessing and also implicating Helen as his accomplice. Wow.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
I know. Seriously. They did bear a slight resemblance to the two who had robbed the Rolston grocery. And they were actually even picked out of a photo lineup by Lester Loden. But Helen Quigley insisted that she had nothing to do with the robbery or any of the other holdups in the area. She said, you got me wrong. Why I'm so afraid of a gun. I can hardly look at one. I like that. I try.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Thank you. I automatically go southern when I try to do an accent. It's I mean, transatlantic accents have like a hint of southern to it. So you're you're on there. All right. Thank you. I like it. But she said, you got me wrong. You got me wrong.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
Now, despite her declaration of innocence, she was the embodiment of the 1920s flapper, right down to her very casual demeanor when she was faced with arrest. When police went to her dad's house to arrest her, she, quote, calmly asked if she could finish drying the supper dishes before they brought her in for questioning. Priorities, you know? They said, ma'am, you're under arrest for robbery.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
And she said, my dad's gonna get pissed if I don't clean up dinner. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
I feel like this is so perfect because you know when you're low on cash, that's when these unexpected things pop up. Maybe an unexpected trip to the vet, God forbid. Maybe just like upcoming rent and you just forgot about it. In those moments when money isn't moving as fast as your dreams are, Earnin provides the financial momentum you need to keep moving forward.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
You think we want rodents in here? You know, it is New York. But according to Helen, she did have a date with Apples Kowalski on the night of the murder, but he never showed up. That's so like Apples. You had his number from the very beginning.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
She even Helen knew. So she was like, whatever. She didn't give a fuck. She was like, I just stayed home that night. Other than that, she called Kowalski a dirty rat and a squealer. That's right. But she didn't say much else during the hours-long interrogation. Damn.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
The press and the police were completely certain that she was the bobbed-haired bandit who had robbed several stores in South Brooklyn neighborhoods. But that was certainly shaken just a few days later when another store was robbed. This time it was a Weinstein's drugstore.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
According to Lewis Hecht, the clerk who was at the Weinstein's that night, this is rude, a, quote, chunky bobbed-haired girl and her boyfriend entered the store and immediately pointed the gun at him, demanding the cash in the register. After pocketing the cash and looting the store, the girl handed him a note and told him to give it to Captain Carey of the Detective Bureau.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
This show is sponsored by Liquid IV. It's a new year, which means a new us. For me, that really just means waking up earlier and, you know, working out a little bit more, which obviously I need to be hydrated to do. Whatever you do, come into your own, your own way with extraordinary hydration from Liquid IV.
Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
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Morbid
Episode 637: The Bobbed Haired Bandit
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Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
There's also monthly small batch drops of indulgent favorites like the popular 2-gram net carb Hero Croissant. I'm going to try that. And new surprises coming each month this year. Hero Bread is offering 10% off your order. Go to hero.co and use code morbid at checkout. That's morbid at h-e-r-o.co. I'm actually on my way there right now to get those friggin' cheddar biscuits. Oh my god.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
All my parents out there, I know that you never want to sacrifice quality for convenience, but listen, so many baby and kids food options today, they just don't meet the mark. But that is why I really love Little Spoon. They deliver healthy, ready-to-eat meals and snacks that your baby, toddler, or even your big kid will love and that you can actually feel good about.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
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Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And she's always talking about how good she feels serving them meals that are actually good for them. And did I mention it all comes right to your door? So flexible, so easy, and everything stores right in the fridge and freezer. You pick the menu and change up what you order every time. The price is right. The quality is unmatched. Elena loves it. Her kids love it. The grandparents even love it.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
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Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And, you know, they're a little liquidy. Like, they're not liquidy like I taste liquid. This is so gross. But, like, it's fine. They sound a little yuckas. Elena has told me... for all of my life, but they sound like the bog of eternal stench. But today, everyone decided to go deeper. It's like an episode of the vile files in here. We're going deeper.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
I love that you're like, you know what, we're going to just say it completely different.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Well, it's also like he's got all this money and everything. It's like she doesn't have any resources to figure this out. So she's relying 100% on him to figure out their situation that they got themselves into together.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And Mikey said to me, Mikey said to me, you know, actually, I feel pity for... My mouth is, my jaw, unclicked from the top part, and it's on the floor. Pity? You pity me? No, not you. He pities your burps. Which are part of me. Which are part of me. And so I got upset with him. And then he was like, no, no, no, let me backtrack, except dig my hole even further. And he said, do you know what it is?
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
You wish that she was just able to, like, whisk her away.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
She was probably getting more and more scared as this was happening.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Also, like, I'm sure if they went to her house, they would find a pile of letters exchanged between the two of them.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
So she sat around for four months waiting for him just to like... Thinking he was going to come around. That's so awful.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And I looked at him and I said, don't fuck it up. Don't dig this hole. And this motherfucker got a power shovel. He said, I used to work in a hospital.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
what the fuck does that have to do with anything i sound like a hospital this is like mary cosby telling me that i smell like hospital so anyway i'm upset um here's the thing you guys didn't think this episode was gonna start like that all of that was correct it's true what she says is true true true statement thank you um except what um
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
That's right, with King Robert Stack. I heard that intro. I heard that smooth butter voice. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Because she just loved him and he couldn't give a shit. And he's a piece of shit. And then killed her and their unborn child. We got to get her out of there. She deserves so much better. We got to get her out of there. Because she's got to move on to her next life, which is going to be like a million times better.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
With her bebe. With her bebe. With a better man. Yeah. A better husband.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Hey, weirdos. If you guys know one thing about us, it's that we love a deep dive. Well, if you're looking for a limited series that will completely consume you, we've got you covered. Those sketchy texts you're always getting? Sometimes there's something way darker behind them. Imagine helping your brother land a dream job abroad, only to discover you've trapped him in a nightmare.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
We're talking armed guards with shoot-to-kill orders and thousands forced to scam others just to stay alive. Wondery's new podcast, Scam Factory, follows one family's desperate fight to save their brother from a multi-billion dollar criminal empire, where the only way out is to become part of the scheme that trapped you. Are you looking for a wild story that'll keep you up at night?
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. you can binge all episodes of scam factory early and ad free right now by joining wondery plus
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yours are scary. Yours come out of nowhere. And I agree. And sometimes they sound like a shot. Yeah. Like a bop. I'm like, ah!
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah. J Love. J Love. She was so helpful. She was such an empath. Good for her, man. That show used to scare the shit out of me as a kid, though. You probably shouldn't have been watching it. Yeah, probably not. But I always loved the end, though, because she would help them, like, find the light and cross over. Yeah. I like that. I know. I want to help Grace find whatever she needs to find.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Mine's a little more wily than that and a little more all over the place.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
i'm going to talk about crater lake which is located inside of crater lake national park if you can believe it i can't it is the deepest lake in the united states that's really scary and i don't like that one of the deepest actually in the world no i actually hate that same it has an average depth of about 1500 feet shut the fuck up but that's not even as deep as it goes that's the average the deepest parts are said to be close to 2000 feet deep
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Like, just think of everything that would be lurking underneath you as you treaded water. I had to say that to you. No! You actually really shouldn't swim in this lake. It's not very allowed, but... Don't do it. There's, like, certain parts where you can. It's not very allowed. I was waiting for that to hit you. It's not very allowed. It's not very allowed. It's not very allowed.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
There's certain places where you can, but overall, it's too cold and too deep. Like, they don't recommend it. It's way too deep. Don't do that. Yeah, yeah.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Don't do it. No. Well, the formation of this lake is crazy. It formed over 7,700 years ago. Badass. Which is crazy. When Mount Mazama, the volcano, erupted. Now, the eruption was so large and so cray-cray that it weakened the structure of the volcano itself. the volcano emptied its entire magma reservoir, and then it all just collapsed in on itself, and that's what formed where the lake is.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
It's literally, I've never, I didn't know how I felt in that moment and that's exactly the description. Oh wait, just picture that like happening to a landmass. No, that's actually the scariest thing I've ever heard. It literally created a five to six mile wide caldera. So like just like a, yeah, a crater essentially, which over time got filled with rainwater and like melted snow and shit.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And that's Crater Lake. The fact that it is just an exploded volcano that collapsed in on itself.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Like, that is just, like, my mind is, like, bending around that. Well, like, I looked it up because I was like, okay, so, like, could it erupt still? Technically, it could still erupt. Oh, shit. But it wouldn't be, like, a typical volcano eruption, obviously.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah, I don't think anybody really knows exactly what would happen. Oh, my God. Crater Lake is scary, guys. It's so scary. It's so big. It's also surrounded by, like, all this, like, mountain area.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
it's a knowing what that is is like oh yeah so i'm not even going to be able to hit like i'm hitting like the tip of the iceberg here because so many different things have happened yeah we could honestly probably do a part two of crater lake cool let's do it because it's got all kinds of crazy stuff going on there's some kind of water monster that people have reported seeing
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Like small little tales, but they're fun. I love a Nessie situation. There's paranormal parts of this. Yep. The biggest thing that seems to be related to Crater Lake is disappearing planes. Ooh. And like, like disappearing. Oh. Just like there and then not. I don't love that. Seemingly inexplicable plane crashes have also taken place all around this area.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Get out of here. Scram. She doesn't want to talk to you.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And unfortunately, there have been murders. Oh, man. Now, some of this haunted slash morbid TM activity could have to do with the lake's origin story. So according to the Klamath tribe, who lived on the land where Crater Lake National Park now stands, but like way before it became a national park. Yeah. The god of the underworld, who I believe is Lao. I looked it up.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
So the god of the underworld fell in love with the chief's daughter. And when he couldn't take her back to the underworld as his bride, he promised he was going to do something real big to get back at this tribe. Uh-oh. It's giving Hades and Persephone. Very much. Yes. And that is when the volcano erupted, massively causing the giant caldera.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
But luckily, the sky spirit, Skel, stepped in to protect the tribe from what was happening and came face to face with Lau in a pretty heated battle. The battle is said to have ended when Skel killed Lau and threw him into the lake. Whoa. According to journalist Sarah Crocker, who I got a lot of information from, she wrote an article for Grunge.com.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
It's called A Look at Crater Lake's Morbid History. Ooh.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
yeah fun uh but according to sarah lau's body was eaten by monsters who were living at the time oh it's kind of like the realm of monsters from moana yes exactly but they left his head untouched they said no i don't want that so it's just bobbing around the lake so people believe now especially the people that belong to this tribe that lau still haunts the area and the lake specifically
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
But today he's fired from every job. All of it. No, just kidding. Please continue working for us.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
That is so scary. It's the scariest. What a fascinating, like, origin story.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah. They say that they don't think anybody should even look at the lake too long. Wow. Because it will, they believe it will cause, quote, death and lasting sorrow. Wow. Holy shit. So deep and creepy and spooky. Damn. So let's flash forward to the spring of 1944 for our first bizarre instance.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
During World War I, two, I think it's Grumman, TBF torpedo bombers were flying over the lake, most likely running a drill of some kind. There was a military base nearby. Okay. It was said to be a completely clear day as they were flying over the lake. Each pilot was keeping track of the other.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
The pilot who survived this drill said suddenly he looked over and just didn't see the plane that was supposed to be flying with him. He looked below him. He didn't see it falling out of the sky or anything like that. It was just gone, just disappeared into thin air.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Now, there's a lot of mystery surrounding this particular case, but it's a story connected to the case that's been told for decades. Some people even say they saw a plane flying low that day and then disappear around the area of the lake. But there's never been any names associated with it. It's never been confirmed or denied to have happened. It's just been very hush-hush.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And a lot of people think it's so hush-hush because the government didn't want to say much about it because we were still actively involved in World War II. I mean, that does make sense. And it wouldn't have been like a great look for a bomber plane to just go missing. Just disappear over a lake. But it's entirely possible that this happened. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Anyways, I bet you never thought when you turned on Morbid today that we'd be depicting each other's burps.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
There is also a ton of other military planes that are said to have either crashed into or near Crater Lake throughout the years or just completely vanished in or around the lake. But there's no actual records to be found. So could be legends based on the lake's history, but could be a hush hush thing. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Now, one plane in February of 1975 that did, in fact, disappear near Crater Lake wasn't found for seven years. Holy shit. Seven years. There were three people on that plane. And on the return flight, the pilot, Dave Nunn, and two student pilots, Jim Pryor and Matt Perkins, who were only 17 years old at the time. Oh, that's heartbreaking. So they were on the return flight.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Jean Nunn had driven her husband Dave, her daughter, and her grandchild to the airport that night. And she said that she had a feeling for two weeks beforehand that something was going to happen in her family. She just had this weird feeling she couldn't shake. But she didn't know, obviously, what it was going to be. Yeah, what are you supposed to do? She didn't know who it was going to happen to.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah, she just had a feeling. But she didn't think it was going to be her husband. Now, this trip was supposed to be simple. They were going to fly to Salem, Oregon on Dave's private plane, a blue Cessna 182. And they were dropping off Jean and Dave's daughter and their grandchild. And then they were flying back to Klamath Falls, Oregon.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah, today's a loosey-goosey episode anyway, so I feel like it's going to feel a lot like OG Morbid. It is today.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
This flight literally should have taken only 45 minutes. Oh, my gosh. Like, it's a super quick flight. Okay. So after dropping everybody off at the airport, Jean went home and she said she felt a chill. So she cozied up under an electric blanket and just fell asleep. Because again, this isn't supposed to be, her husband's not supposed to be gone long.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
She's like, all right, I'm just going to take a little nap, go to sleep. But she said she woke up that night around 9.30 and she felt the sensation of a hand on her leg. And she immediately knew that something had happened to Dean. I just got so many chills. She ended up writing a book about it, but she said the
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
feeling just washed over her and she immediately knew so she called the airport and she got as soon as she got on the phone she said the plane must have gone down at 9 20 and dave died at 9 30 i know it Holy shit. They confirmed that they had lost track of the plane on the radar at exactly 9.20 that night. What the fuck? It was exactly what she said. Now, weeks and weeks went by.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Search parties were trying to find this plane anywhere they could find the wreckage. Weeks turned into months. Months turned into years. And finally, seven years later, in July of 1982, a hiker ended up coming across the wreckage just outside of Crater Lake National Park.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And you're just out hiking. You're supposed to have this great day with nature. And you just find a plane crash. What the fuck? And three people inside of it. He found three skeletons inside of it who were the two 17-year-old student pilots and Jean's husband. But she said she knew. She knew all those years. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Like, that's so sad. And just, like, how cool to be a pilot and just be able to, like, fly your daughter and your grandchild home. And he was just trying to teach these two students about flying. They were passionate about it. So sad. That makes me so sad. But also, like, so beautiful in a way that he was able to tell Jean that he had passed and she knew.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Is that a little cough you have today? I'm screaming. I'm just kidding. Oh, my God.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Like, she was able to, like, understand what the sign meant. And in such a way that was, like, really comforting.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Exactly. Now, another plane that crashed and then disappeared unfortunately took much longer to find. Back in December of 1945, there were seven Grumman Hellcat fighter planes that were taking flight over Crater Lake National Park. They were on their way to Washington. Now, it was really foggy this day. There was a lot of fog, especially lingering over the lake.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And while they were going through it, some of the pilots couldn't clearly see others. So they made it through the fog and they realized that there were not seven planes flying anymore. One plane, which was flown by 22-year-old Ensign Frank Lupo, was just completely gone.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Like lost track of it. Now, before they went through the fog, a couple of the other pilots did see him trying to change a gas tank, like while they were still flying. But obviously something had happened. And a couple of the other planes pilots saw Lupo's plane start to descend slowly, which I can't even imagine seeing.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And that's your friend that you're out on this mission with, like you know something bad is happening and you can't stop it. Yeah. So flash forward to almost 25 years later in August of 1970 when a park ranger who was new, newly working at Crater Lake National Park, he was hiking through the park and he just casually stumbled upon a human skull.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
oh yep welcome to the job so obviously he had to go report that to his head of department yep um he had an interesting way of doing so he told the story and then just presented the head taking it out of his backpack and putting the skull onto his boss's desk i mean here none of us know none of us know unless we've come across one definitely like don't move a skull that you don't do it yeah like we can say that with uh
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
with confidence definitely leave that there but i also understand again this is a 70 so we didn't have all that information and he was probably freaked out he was probably freaked out and he probably didn't think anyone was gonna believe him yeah and he probably didn't want to leave it there because an animal could get it yeah move it and then he's just this crazy new guy yeah and it's not like he has a cell phone to pop a picture really quick to be like here it is like let's go find it exactly so instead he brought it with him and he popped it on his boss's desk whoa i guess that leaves no doubts it does
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
But after the discovery, investigators went out to where the skull was found, and they ended up finding the remains of the Hellcat plane. Holy shit. And they found a piece of equipment with a serial number on it, so they were able to determine that it was Lupo's missing plane. Holy shit. And in a bit of a happier ending, Lupo's remains ended up being sent to his family. Oh, that's nice.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
So he could get laid to rest, sort of. So now on to something very sinister. In 1952, 55-year-old Charles Colhane and 56-year-old Albert Jones were found dead on Annie Creek in the National Park. The area where they were found is only about six miles from the lake.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Both men worked for General Motors and were in Oregon for work, but while they were in the area, they planned to go on a fishing trip with these two other guys in the car business, Jack Vaughn and Frank Eberlein.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah, there's a little part of mine that I think like I'm going to give you like a preview, like a brief overview of what happened. But I actually think I might cover part of mine on like a full blown out.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
So Jack, Frank, and Frank's 13-year-old son, Alan, showed up to the park with plans to meet up with the guys, but they were surprised when they only found their car, keys still in the ignition, and the front doors both open. It was like a little bit weird. Yeah. But they were like, maybe they went to sightsee or something while they were waiting for us.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah, like strange, but not like... Yeah, not super alarming.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
So they waited a little bit to see if Albert and Charles would show back up, but they gave it 45 minutes and they still hadn't come back. Now it's alarming. Now it's alarming. So the two older men decided to drive down to a ranger station while Alan stayed behind in case the two men showed up.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
13-year-old Alan is just waiting in the back of his dad's car, and he sees a dark sedan pull into the lot and kind of, like, slowly pass by and take a – he's looking. Like, this driver takes a look at the car that's parked that's empty and then speeds off onto the highway. Wow.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
huh so he's like okay like that was weird yeah that was weird so shortly after that park rangers made it up that way and started the search for these two men they enlisted trail uh trail crews to join the search effort as well the search went on for a day and a half
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
until finally the two men were found and there's a lot of strange details about how they were found they had both been shot in the back of the head at such close range that there was gunpowder residue and burn marks holy shit so it was execution style yeah they both were shot by a quote 7.6 i think it's 7.65 millimeter automatic pistol of foreign manufacture okay which was weird
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And investigators also found two brass cartridges on the ground. They were each missing their shoes, but it looked like the shoes were taken after they were killed because their socks were clean. Albert shoes were found not too far from the scene, but Charles shoes are still missing to this day. This case is unsolved.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Though somebody did try to pawn a very similar pair of shoes after the bodies were found. Interesting. They both had also been gagged with their own neckties and part of Charles's undershirt, which is strange because they were both still wearing their dress shirts.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
So they had to have been like, like part of the shirt had to have been torn off and then like a struggle or he was redressed at some point.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah. Now, even stranger, both men's dentures were found in the pockets of their dress shirts. Huh. Like, what? Their wallets were emptied. They both were assumed to be carrying around $300 and that was gone. And lastly, they both were wearing watches previously that were gone now. Shit. So it looked somewhat like a robbery, but like a very... A bizarre one, I thought. Like an execution...
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
murder robbery right so later an autopsy would show that albert had a fractured skull and both men had been hit so hard in their groin areas that they were bruised oh god yeah so they they put up a fight and yeah they went through a lot yeah he died it definitely seemed like there was more than one killer also to investigators they were both pretty big guys too so it was unlikely to investigators that one person alone took them out
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Now, like I said, the case is technically unsolved, but there were some good leads that came in after the murders. I don't want to go into every single one, and I'm really giving you like a brief overview here.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Because I do want to cover this. There's a little taste. There's a little taste. But what I will tell you is that afterwards, after like this got out to the public, a couple reported seeing two, quote, dirty unkempt men in an old car near the crime scene.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Now, interestingly, another man who was working a delivery route in the area had also seen what he described as two scruffy-looking men leading two nicely-dressed men into the woods near Annie Creek on the day of the murders. Oh, shit. And he said he noticed this, and he also noticed one of the nicely-dressed guys make a symbol to the other guy, like a hand symbol, like a gun. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
So basically trying to tell the other guy, like, fuck, they have a gun. Oh, okay. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
like trying to like subtly warn him and he said he also saw a black pontiac coupe parked on the shoulder around the corner from the scene which if you remember alan saw a dark sedan yeah so that's interesting now this guy this driver was driving again in the area the next day and he kept running into those same scruffy men that he saw before and they were clearly making a point to intimidate him he said
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
They stared him down. They ended up locking him in at a gas station at one point. The fuck? Driving that same black Pontiac that he had seen on the day of the murders. So now he saw the car near the scene, but now he knows they're the ones driving it.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And they just overall seemed to be following him. But obviously because of this, he was able to get a good look at them. One of the men, who seemed to be the older one of the two, he said had quite a few distinguishable details that this guy remembered. And the witness, his name is Lincoln. So the man who had all these memorable characteristics was wearing a beaded belt that said Ralph.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
He had a tattoo of a woman in a bikini, and he was also missing one of his fingers.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
So you'll remember that. Yeah. You'll remember a nine-fingered guy. You sure will. Unfortunately, the authorities didn't really take Lincoln's story too seriously. Like, he kept telling them all this information, but it seems like some of his reports weren't even recorded at all. What the fuck? Like, there are some that are on record and some, like, he was like, I also gave additional information.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Because remember, this is the 50s. Yeah, so they did think he was a smart aleck. They definitely did. But weird. Almost 50 years after the murders and Lincoln's experience with two scruffy-looking men, somebody new got eyes on the case. A woman named Cheryl was taking a class at a local college when she heard the story about the murders all those years ago.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And she just got deeply fascinated with this case and started going down all these rabbit holes, getting every last detail together. And she ended up writing a paper about the murders for her class. And it was a really well done paper. So she ended up giving a presentation later on the paper at a local museum, like in this area.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah, she's a queen. So the presentation was attended by a ton of people who signed in before joining the discussion. And Cheryl's friend told her that the last man to walk into this whole presentation was suspicious looking.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And while Cheryl was still presenting some of the paper, this man went down and started looking through the list of names of people who had signed in, like, like very into it, like studying this list. Fuck that. The other thing that they noticed about this man, her friend, he was missing a finger. Shut up. Shut the fuck up. Yep.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Maybe you'll have to do it again. I'll do it again. An updated version. Oh, maybe I'll like add a little flair onto it if that happens. We're just like, you know. I'm going to get back in the studio.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
But that's all I'm going to give you because I want to cover it in its entirety. Oh, my God. Weird, though. Weird. What the fuck? Now, what I will tell you is it's technically unsolved, but there is a good set of suspects for this murder. All right. Or these murders, I should say.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
apparently park rangers at the in the crater lake national park will see campfires burning in areas where they're restricted now they'll go all the way out and they'll say like we see campfires we see people around the campfires and then they'll go out to confront the campers and be like you can't have a fire here and they'll get all the way out to where they saw this all happening and there will be nobody there and no campfires lit
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
That must be so maddening. And so fucking creepy because you're like, what was bidding me out here? What the fuck was I seeing? Yeah, exactly. Apparently this happens a lot around Wizard Island. Wizard Island? You heard me. Wizard Island was formed way back when the volcano erupted and is named that because it apparently resembles a wizard's hat, like from an overhead shot. Bitch. Yep.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
There's also another island in the lake called Phantom Island. Phantom Island? Phantom Island. This lake is crazy. This lake is the tits. I love it. Phantom Island is named that because depending on what angle you're looking at it from, you'll see it.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And then it's like this weird optical illusion where if you move slightly or like you see it at a different time of day, you'll see the island and then you won't suddenly. Like it like literally disappears in your line of vision.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And that's where a lot of the phantom fires are seen. Oh, shit. Yeah. Now, finally, on to the water monster of it all. Yeah, absolutely. There have been at least two sightings of the monster. The wonster. The wonster. What is that? The...
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
The water monster. The water monster. And people say it looks like a dragon, kind of like Nessie. Cool. Like the Loch Ness monster. We love Nessie here. In one instance, there was a group of friends who saw the Crater Lake dragons swim under their robot. What?
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
my god what's happening i'm losing it crater lake is getting to you in one instance a group of friends saw the crater lake dragons swim under their rowboat and they were so terrified that they hauled ass back to land and were like flagging rangers down being like we just saw a straight up creature in the lake we just saw a dragon like we just saw like what is that and they're like there's fish in the lake i don't know imagine if there's a straight up dragon in that i am like fully of the mindset that at this point yeah
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
fully of the probably basically nobody believed them they were like yeah are you like hi like are you like no i'm high on dragon sightings we saw what we saw and yeah now we are high on dragon sightings but they're not the only group of people to have seen this of course they're not because it's real A woman who was visiting the area from Georgia also wanted to do a little rowboat day of her own.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah. You couldn't fucking pay me money, but go right ahead. You could pay me money and I would do it. No. I would do it probably without paying you money. I'll watch from the shore. Yeah. Watch from Canto Island. Yeah. But she said that she saw the giant sea creature swimming away from her boat. Like she saw it herself too. What the fuck? And everybody describes it like a dragon-like creature.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
That's the coolest shit I've ever heard. I'm obsessed with it. You can also buy postcards of it if you want to because now they lean in.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah. Don't you dare try to dispel the Nessie. Exactly. Now, I have a few honorable mentions. There wasn't like a ton of information on these things, but they happened. Worth mentioning. Yeah, worth mentioning. Many Bigfoot sightings. Oh, I love that. Rangers will smell something real bad, investigate it, and then just get a barrage of pine cones thrown at them.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
That's the funniest shit I've ever heard. I'm obsessed with it.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
I love that Bigfoot is just like, get the fuck out of here. No, no, no, no. Don't look at me. Get out of here. There was also a 1997 UFO sighting. Oh, hell yeah, there was. Three lights flashed across the sky. And then there was like a ton of weird flashes of lights. And then those three lights seemed to just disappear into the water. Oh. Yeah. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah. And finally, my favorite part of Crater Lake is the old man of the lake. It's my favorite part, too, and I don't know anything about it. He's not a man. He's actually a giant 30-foot mountain hemlock that just floats around the lake upright.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
which like obviously doesn't make sense from a from a gravity standpoint from a reality standpoint from this life standpoint he just floats upright in the lake with about three feet it used to be four but you know weather and global warming and all that now just three feet of him stick out of the lake surface oh there he is isn't he so cute there he is he just floats around What the fuck?
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
But there's more to him than that. Apparently, he controls the weather. Yeah. Are you ready? Of course he does. He does. Because in 1988, there was a group of researchers who were going to survey the bottom of a lake, of the lake with like a submersible, which fuck that. Yeah. No, you couldn't ever have me do that.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
But they were worried that the submersible might run into the old man like and, you know, break or something.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
So they took him over to Wizard Island, of course. Yeah, of course. And they tied him to the shore. And in no time, the weather took a 180 degree turn. They were not even able to launch their submersible because storm clouds rolled in and it got so bad that it started snowing. Like the weather was going insane.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
The old man is lawless. The old man of the lake is lawless. He really is.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
He follows no rules. And he doesn't have to. Well, listen. I'm not asking him to. I'm not either. No way. The second they untied him, the weather went right back to beautiful.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
that's all he wanted like almost instantly that's all he asked for he wants to be free yeah let him get hold him down now there's a lot of theories as to how old man just like floats upright because again it makes no sense personally i think it's because he's the most magical thing that we've ever come across in life some people think his density has increased over time because it's the wall he's been in the water for so long nah but i don't think so
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And that is the tip of the iceberg about Crater Lake. Holy shit. I might do a part two on Crater Lake.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Because there's some other disappearances that have taken place there. I'm sure I could probably find some more plane crashes that have gone down.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yes. because that was shocking yeah me and dave are going to start working on that one real soon me and dave so keep a lookout for that hell yeah we hope you enjoyed my rant in the beginning about yeah being bullied i feel a little safer in the office now yeah you know now that we've talked about crater lake we got it out yeah
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
the old man is there the old man is on my side he's on everyone's side i'll i'll use the old man to because we'll never hold him down we'll never hold him down i just want to i want to be one with him i just want to like hold on to him and float just bob around the lake actually i don't because it's too no oh fuck that yeah but i do want to see the dragon i want to see the dragon yeah and i want to see grace yeah i want to help her i know i just want to send grace home i know we have so many places we have to go i'll owe the places we'll go
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
I'm telling you, you've got to start drinking armor colostrum. I think it has saved me this winter because I got neurovirus, but I didn't get any of the colds that you guys were all getting. No, you really didn't. one cold this season. I know. Not one. Yeah, it's crazy. And it tastes like watermelon. Yeah, that's true. That's a win-win right there. No colds plus watermelon.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Yeah. I told Elena about Storygraph. It's like where you can log all your books and it's woman owned, which I love. Love that. I read, what have I read so far? I did So Thirsty by Rachel Harrison. I thought it was pretty good. It's like a quick read. It's fun. Yeah. I love that. Just like a fun vamp tale. And then I just started our book club book.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Me and Alayna have a book club with the two girls, one ghost, girlies. Sabrina and Kareem. Our brother Colton Coven. Hell yeah. And we're reading God of the Woods. I just started it. I think you're going to like it. Yeah, I'm excited to start that one. It's really good. And I've heard really good things about it. Yeah. So yeah, I have a bunch on my to-be-read. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
I have my entire bookshelf is to-be-read. I have a whole space on my bookshelf that is.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Me and Drew went on a Barnes & Noble date the other day and I was like, damn, I'm just buying all these books when I already have like 400 that I haven't even read yet. Oh, I have a problem with books. But it's a fun thing to buy. It is. I love books. Yeah. I will never regret buying too many books. And something about Barnes & Noble, I'm like... I just want to buy everything here.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
It's true. It's great. I'm also on a Yellow Jackets kick. Me and Drew have literally flown through each season within, like, I think it took us maybe two weeks.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
We took some time off, you and I, for February vacation for the kids. And there was a couple nights that Drew and I just stayed up until, like, 3 a.m. Like, weren't tired. Like, just stayed up.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And so we watched like a ton of Yellow Jackets and now we're up to like current. You're caught up. Yeah, we're caught up. And we got John and Elena to start watching it.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
It's Morbid, and today I'm being bullied in the office, everybody. Honestly, I can't even, like, say that's not happening. No, I'm getting actively bullied by not only my sister, but also my employee and friend, Mikey! I burped and, you know, people burp, okay? And let me just... Hold on. She's saying it like she burped. Oh, I just burped once.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
so far i really i i like it yeah i'm i'm intrigued i think so far it really pops off in like the middle to the end of the first season yeah and then season three so far i think it's only been three episodes the fourth one i think comes out tomorrow fourth episode it's season three is like i'm like oh fuck it really goes there yeah i couldn't watch the plane crash scenes because it's a little too
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
I was like, tell John like the end of the first one. Yeah, he just told me when it was fine to watch again. And then they do like the flashback. That's a fucking scary ass plane crash. I'm sure. I'm going to be talking a lot about plane crashes today. Cool. Yeah. That's fun. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
it's part of my lake it's part of your your lake lore my lake lore uh correct yeah and honestly that brings us right to it that we're going to be talking about some spooky lakes today spooky lakes and like kind of for me like national park because my lake is in a national park yeah there you go go visit national parks and support them right now yeah support them yeah hell yeah and keep them clean because a lot of people just got fired who were keeping them clean
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
It's like, okay, then don't date a factory farm girl because she can probably do better than you anyway.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
No, I wasn't finished yet, but you're just still bullying me. No, we always burp a lot in here. It's kind of our thing. And Elena burps all the time and it literally feels like it sprays blood at people because they feel so sharp coming out of her fucking face. It's like... And you're like, oh, my God. Duck and cover. Somebody call someone. She's bleeding out of every orifice. And then I burp.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Well, and also like you think about the, you know, vibes here. Like it's like the big hot shot nephew of the owner of the company that you work for takes an interest in you. Like she must have felt so special. But then he's acting like a dick.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
And that's so sad that that's the treatment that she felt she like was supposed to be taking at the time. It must have felt so demeaning. Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about one of my current favorites, Hero Bread. I am freaking obsessed with the fact that this bread is as delicious as it is while having ultra low net carbs, zero grams of sugar, and it's high in fiber.
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
I can still focus on getting a healthy, balanced breakfast in while also stuffing my face with a yummy breakfast burrito wrapped in a Hero Bread tortilla. Yum. Or one of their phenomenally fluffy bagels. I will not lie to you guys. I was skeptical about trying this bread. I was like, I don't know. It's pretty good for you, it looks like. Is it going to taste that good?
Morbid
Episode 653: Spooky Lakes (Volume 2)
Is it going to be super fluffy? Yes, it tastes as good, if not better, than my standard bread and bread products, but no guilt. I don't have any guilt. I love knowing how high in fiber it is too because most people are not getting the recommended amount of fiber, but you know who is? Me. Me. Thanks to Hero Bread.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Hey weirdos, it's Ash here, ready to share a little secret. Have you heard of Wondery Plus? With ad-free episodes and one week early access, it's like having an all-access pass to our lighthearted nightmare. So come join us on the dark side and try Wondery Plus today. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
No, just facts at the top of the show. No, nothing fun is happening.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
I feel like with every purchase we make, there's so many hidden fees. It's like you go to the movies and there's a hidden fee. Airline fees are insane. You think you have one total and really it's another. But when we're trying to make progress, life's curveballs often feel like taking one step forward and two steps back.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
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Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
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Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Something fun is happening. We got invited to go to the premiere of HeartEyes. Yeah, we did. And I'm really excited to see that movie. It looks really fucking good.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Chime never charges fees or interest for using SpotMe. Make progress toward a better financial future with Chime. Open your account in two minutes at Chime.com slash Morbid. That's Chime.com slash Morbid. Chime feels like progress. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp NA or Stride NA. Members FDIC. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Booths are available to eligible CHI members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Timing depends on submission of payment file. Fees apply at out-of-network ATMs. This show is sponsored by Liquid IV. I feel like starting a new year is all about starting new rituals. For me, that's waking up earlier.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
I want to be doing some workout classes, taking a little treadmill walk, and I need to stay hydrated while I'm doing that, which I can do very easily with Liquid IV. Whatever you do, come into your own, your own way, with Extraordinary Hydration from Liquid IV. Powered by Live Hydro Science, Liquid IV helps you break the mold.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
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Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
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Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Very confused how they put one and one together there.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
How is it helping them to not ask? It's usually how ransom works is you request it.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
chef's kit like i need it it's from the producers that did scream so you know it's going to be good and the same people that did um happy death day
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Oh, yeah. We love that. And Mason Gooding is in it. And he is a snack. And I'm excited to see him back on our big screen.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
That's such a wild statement. I got this child.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Oh, it's literally not an ad at all. They just invited us to go see it and we're fucking stoked. We're just excited about it. If you want to invite us to go see a movie, please do. Invite us to go see a movie. You know, if you're like a producer or something.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Which she might have just tricked herself into thinking.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And not even in a way of like, I want this to be my son, so I'm going to pretend it's my son.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Her brain might have literally been like, this is your son. We're going to go with this.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
that'd be fun just a big movie with everyone I mean hell yeah let's go let's figure it out let's figure it out man we'll work on it yeah so that's a fun thing you know we can look for the we can look for the bright spots yeah in fact I started a notes app on my phone and I think you should too and listener hello I think you should dear listener dear listener dear Abby I made a note notes a note in my phone oh ash bro
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
oh my god also can we just whoever the fuck this kid is yeah this poor child this poor child like this is truly dramatic and this poor family like the the dunbar family yeah it's snip snap and poor julia like nobody knows who's nobody wins in this situation like everybody's affected here nobody wins in this situation but especially the kids yeah he's like five years old i feel awful for this kid probably like who am i who am i and who are any of you like what is going on
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Hold on. I'm just rebooting us real quick. I made a note on my phone and it says good things are always happening to me. And each day I'm going to write one good thing that happened to me.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
I don't know what any of this is. Well, and she's probably sitting there thinking, I don't want to fuck this kid up if it's not my kid. Like, I gotta be totally sure. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Hey, weirdos. If you guys know one thing about us, it's that we love a deep dive. Well, if you're looking for a limited series that will completely consume you, we've got you covered. Those sketchy texts you're always getting? Sometimes there's something way darker behind them. Imagine helping your brother land a dream job abroad, only to discover you've trapped him in a nightmare.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
We're talking armed guards with shoot-to-kill orders and thousands forced to scam others just to stay alive. Wondery's new podcast, Scam Factory, follows one family's desperate fight to save their brother from a multi-billion dollar criminal empire, where the only way out is to become part of the scheme that trapped you. Are you looking for a wild story that'll keep you up at night?
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Scam Factory early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Well, first of all, shut the fuck up because you're not a mom. That's just really mean. And secondly, obviously she gives somewhat of a shit. She made the journey out here to determine if this is her kid or not.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Hope dashed. Hope brought back. I wish you guys had seen her deliver that. The arms were flailing. Hope dashed.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
My brain won't wrap around this. No, and you have to sit there and think, one, like, if this is Bruce Anderson and he is getting claimed by the Dunbars as Bobby Dunbar, obviously he's living a different life now.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
So that might have been why he was a little hesitant to say, like, yeah, that's my mom.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And a baby five-year-old should not be put in that position.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Because also, I can't imagine losing a child to begin with. And then I don't remember, honestly, if it ends up being Bobby Dunbar. But it's like gaining him back. You would never let go again.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
What a tragic loss for her, like a series of tragic losses for her.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
This is a very intense theory. Because they never asked for ransom. That's the biggest plot of that plot.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
There was never ever a ransom demand. I'm like, you guys are talking a lot about ransom for never having received a ransom letter.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Yeah, even on like a bad day. Like I had a day last week where I was just – in bitch mode. You know, you were here. Poor Mikey was here. I was in, no, I was in bitch mode. Like it was bad. We're all entitled to those days. But you get so wrapped up in a day like that. And it's like, at the end of that day, I hadn't started my note yet.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Oh, it sounds like a country song. I want to be known as Old Woman Ashkel. Old Man Thigpin.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Just call me Old Man Thigpin. Obsessed. I'm going to be that for the next Listener Tales. Old Man Thigpin.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
But at the end now, like if another bitch mode day comes, I can look back and be like, all right, but what's one good thing that happened that day? Instead of like focusing on all the shitty things that happened or the negativity wrapped up in all of it.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
It's a certain twinkle in your eye when you say it. Yeah, the Times Picayune. Yeah. I love it. You've said it a couple times, and every time it's like the way you say it and the little twinkle in your eye.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
That's giving, like, West Memphis 3 that they were like, yeah, we'll release three, you know, quote-unquote child murderers.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
We're here. So, you know. Oh, and one more thing since we're a self-help podcast. I learned about love and kindness meditation the other day. I'm taking this really cool Wiccan class because I'm going to become a fucking Wicca and Wiccan woman and hex the patriarchy. I'm going to become a Wiccan woman. I am. I'm going to become a – I love that. Woo. Hell yeah.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
But I learned about love and kindness meditation. So if you're interested in meditation at all, look into that. It's very cool. And I liked the experience.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Yeah. Well, and she didn't necessarily defy their wishes.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
Whether subconsciously or consciously, the body knows.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
And also just I'm looking at the two of them side by side and knowing that one of these boys like lived his whole life thinking he was someone else. Yep. And the other was possibly eaten by alligators.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
That's a wild tale. A thinker. It's an oldie, but it's a wild one. It is. I love an oldie. Yeah. All right. Well, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird as any of this. And not so weird that you don't practice some self-love and point out the good things that happened to you this week, man. We're a self-help podcast. Don't be all uncool. Don't. Don't.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
This is an interesting story. I remember hearing this when I first got on my interest in true crime and MFM covered it way back in the day.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
So I feel like that writer probably should have gotten into like horror writing.
Morbid
Episode 645: The Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar
That never ceases to amaze me that they could just straight up lie.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Yeah. And again, people said that he was like mean to other animals and stuff like that. As soon as you said that, I got a red flag. That's more like what we're talking about. Unfortunately, like I said, like there's limited information, so we don't have specific examples. Of like what those cruel and sadistic things are. But we know that they happened or people said they did at least.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
But there was at least one person in Ronald's life who he really truly bonded with and somebody who he was willing to let his guard down around. And it was his father's sister, Matilda, who was his Aunt Tilly. Oh, that's really cute. I know. They had a really cute relationship, I think.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
In the stories, the documentaries, and the movies that have been made since the original event, there's always a great deal made about Aunt Tilly and especially her role as the person who introduced Ronald to the occult. Oh, damn, Aunt Tilly.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
she might have but again there's a lot more fiction surrounding aspects of the story than facts so we don't know but what is true is that aunt tilly lived in st louis and she visited her brother and his family a lot and during her visit she always made time for ronald they really like to hang out together that's some good aunt shit it is
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
I just ate two of them. I ate three. No, I ate two. Oh. You're just trying to one-up me with Cadbury eggs? I took a third one out. Okay, that's fair. But I have not yet ingested it. Yeah, maybe you should chill out.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Author Thomas Allen wrote, Aunt Tilly seems to have treated Ronald more like a special friend than as a nephew. That reads a little creepy. I just want to be clear. It's not creepy. It's not creepy. It was just a cute relationship.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
you know yeah make sure that i pay attention to him and i think she even saw that her brother probably wasn't super present in her nephew's life and like he was struggling at school had the adults around him didn't pay a lot of attention to him other than his mom like smothering him yeah which is not the attention that you want no so she was like let me just like be a normal person in your life yeah but i feel like you hear special friend oh 100 reads creepy yeah i mean like we're we're in a place now in the world where special friend with an adult is no point no yeah we'll go
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
So he just wanted to be, you know. Thank you for clearing up on Tilly's name. Yeah, I had to. That's my girl. Yeah. So given his inability to form bonds with children his own age and the fact that he, you know, treated his peers pretty shittily, most of Ronald's time was spent with the adults in his life.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And like I was just saying, most of them typically just ignored him or treated him like a nuisance. Aw. So in that case, it makes sense why he was drawn so much to somebody like his Aunt Tilly. Yeah. She was said to be outgoing, outspoken, and pretty eccentric in an era where most people were conservative and respectable and, you know, buttoned up.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
So she probably sees a little bit of something in him, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like she's a little different. Yeah. She's like, I think you just need to be like steered in the right direction. Yeah. We got to celebrate our differences. Yeah. So like Ronald's mother and grandmother, Tilly was also interested in spiritualism and
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And she introduced Ronald to the Ouija board, which they used together to try to contact the spirit world. I'm kind of obsessed with all of this. I'm also pretty obsessed.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
It's funny, too, because the mom was like super religious, but she also had an interest in that. side of things. Yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah. Nobody really knows how much Ronald believed in his aunt's ability to talk to the dead through the Ouija board or if he really bought into any of the beliefs.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
But according to Thomas Allen, his interest in the board was at least strong enough for him to engage with it even when Tilly wasn't visiting. So he was using that Ouija board. So he was into it. And it wasn't just the spirit board that Tilly believed in.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
She was also a firm believer in spirit wrapping, which is the belief that spirits can communicate with the living by, like, knocking on walls, floors, any hard surface. Some people think it's debunked. I don't. I feel like it's a hard one to debunk. Like, fully. Yeah. I agree. You know? We've heard weird tapping in this room before. We have. And we've never found the source.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
For sure. But not overall. A blanket debunkment doesn't feel right here. Thank you. You're welcome. So considering everything that was going on, it would definitely be fair to say that Ronald was struggling emotionally before his possession and that he didn't have a lot of relationships where he felt supported. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And throughout a lot of the 20th century, expectations of gender were rigid when it came to boys and young men, and especially boys and young men asking for help when it comes to, like, emotional problems. That would have been super unusual. And that's why they just acted out. Exactly. That's exactly my point here. So let's kind of get into it now.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
As far as anybody can tell, Ronald Hunkler's paranormal experience began in early January 1949. About five months into his eighth grade year, his behavior was starting to become a problem at school and his bullying behavior wasn't giving him any friends.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Drew just does a little like with his nose. See, my girls love them. Yeah, who doesn't? My girls are correct. It shouldn't be that hot of a topic.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And things finally came to a head that winter when one day, just in the middle of class, a supposedly paranormal experience made him the center of everybody's attention. His friend John remembered he was sitting in a chair and it was one of those deals with one arm attached and it looked like he was shaking the desk. Holy shit. Yeah. What? Yeah.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
In later tellings of the story, particularly the version told in Thomas Allen's book Possession, the event in the classroom was a genuine poltergeist phenomenon where the desk was moving free of human hands like he wasn't doing it at all. But John, who was in that class, said, nah, the desk certainly did not move around the room like that book said. It was just shaking. Alrighty.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
I mean, either way. Yeah, two versions of that story. Regardless of what was causing the commotion, the disruption with the desk was the last straw for the teachers and the administrators at the high school, and Ronald was asked to not return.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
so i there was definitely there was definitely stuff leading up to this there had to be a lot of shit leading up to i think probably the bullying yeah was like a bigger thing that's a big deal and then like he definitely sounds like he was disruptive a lot yeah if you're being a bully to everyone and treating everyone like shit sorry i just almost yawned while i was saying that not because this is boring just because it's tired uh but i said it's tired it's tired it's tired over there this
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
If you don't like them, you're just wrong. Whoa, she said it.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And also it was a lot easier to throw people out of school. It's true.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Get out of my class. It's like, of course. But what sucks is that if it, like, was legitimate. Then he just got kicked out because of a ghost. Yeah, like, that's kind of bullshit, you know? Yeah. Thanks a lot, spirit. Thanks a lot, spirit.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Well, interestingly, when the incident was reported to the priest months later, it was reported that Ronald, quote, did not continue his attendance out of embarrassment. So there's two stories there. Huh. Now, the next major event came a few days later on January 15th.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Ronald and his grandmother were at home in his grandmother's room, and they started hearing a dripping noise, followed by scratching sounds coming from within the walls and the ceiling. I'd be like, fuck, we have mice. Until, without warning, a framed picture of Jesus Christ began shaking. The way you said it. I had to say it. A framed picture of Jesus Christ. That's a big deal.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Jesus Christ himself. Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. Jesua Christ. They started shaking, quote, as if the wall back of it had been bumped.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Oh, wow, you're going to validate them in these streets? No, that's wrong. You're validating. It's wrong if you don't like them. There's another option. Is it caramel? Yeah, the caramel. So I like caramel, but I don't like those ones. I'm okay with them, but it's not my thing. Yeah, it's not my preference. Yeah. I don't really fucks with them, if you will. I don't either, man.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And I'm picturing him just booty bumping the wall. Like he knows Jesus Christ is in the photo. Yeah, Jesus Christ is in that photo. Like he knows.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
A bodacious demon in the wall. It's going to be like Mario's nickname for Brynn on TikTok. Yes, it's so true. Well, that happened. Big booty demon or mice. Or big booty mice. Of Jesus Christ off the wall.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Because I did it on purpose because it's so important. It is. So in the week or so following the scratching and the dripping sounds, the inexplicable noises became a nightly event in the Hunkler house, usually from like 7 p.m. to midnight. Yeah, that's when he's getting his ray ball in that demon. First you pregame, then you rage. Then he's really into it. Yeah, he starts like a little bit slowly.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
He takes a couple shots at the pregame. But once he gets that feeling, it's over. It's over. The night's going crazy. His song comes on and that's it. He says, let's go, girls. He says, let's go, Hunkler fam. Now it's unclear what type of activity was experienced during these events for the humans.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
But most accounts mention Ronald's reports of hearing squeaking shoes on his bed for six nights in a row. Whoa. So now the demon has some new sneakers that he's breaking in on Ronald's bed. Some new Nike high tops. Now, it's worth noting that none of the accounts mention which of the family members heard these sounds.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
But after about a week of Ronald's complaints, the sounds did finally become audible to the other members of the family, aside from just Ronald. But the noise was, quote, only heard at night when the boy went to bed.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Yeah. That's your time. I mean, if a demon is going to start partying, it's definitely going to be when the youngest kid goes to bed. Of course. Duh. Yeah. That's how demon tree works. Absolutely. It does. Read the handbook. Read a book. Exactly. Thank you. By the end of the week, though, Ronald's mother and grandmother had accepted Ronald's claims as fact.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And they, too, started having paranormal experiences. Good for them. Yeah. Good for them. That was a crazy reaction. Let's go, girls. He said, hell yeah, Nana. In one instance, both women were laying down on Ronald's bed and they, quote, heard something coming toward them, similar to the rhythm of marching feet and the beat of drums. This is all adding up.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And that seemed to travel the length of the mattress and back again. Yes. Conga line.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
I love it. And he's just like voguing. Oh my God, the demon. Yes. I love it. Voguing and throwing pictures of Jesus Christ around. Jesus Christ. Now the next significant event came about a week later on January 26th. When Aunt Tilly died. No! Aunt Tilly died from complications of multiple sclerosis at age 54.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
I was going to tell you guys something. I thought of it this morning. I was like getting my coffee ready and I was like, I'll say that on the show later. I'll say that on the show. Oh, I'll say that on the pod. What was it? And then we had such a whirlwind of a morning and now I just have boats and hoes stuck in my head.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
I know. Now, given the special relationship that Ronald had with his aunt, Tilly's death had to have been a devastating event for him, of course, and the entire family. Oh, hell yeah. Now, believing that Tilly's death might have had something to do with the events happening in the house, Ronald's mother held a seance with the Ouija board a few nights later. in an attempt to contact Tilly's spirit.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
That sounds awesome. I'm obsessed. Like, that's awesome. Yeah. She's just like, let's seance about it. I think it's rad. Like, what a cool mom. And I think the grandma probably went too because she was into spiritualistic shit. I would have loved to grow up in this house. Yeah, that's pretty cool.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Now, according to her testimony provided to Father Raymond Bishop, Odell called out to the spirit and asked if your Aunt Tilly knocked three times. Supposedly, Ronald's grandmother said she could feel waves of air rushing over her face and head, and then all three participants heard a faint knock three times.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And Odell called out, if you are Tilly, tell me positively by knocking four times, at which point she heard four distinct knocks, followed by a, quote, claw scratching on Ronald's mattress. You can keep that all in because he has 47 names.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
that's scary yeah i don't like the claw well the other thing is you could ask a spirit who they are and you could say are you aunt tilly and they could say yeah bitch yeah of course i am yeah it me that's the thing like you think a demon's gonna be like oh shit no caught me that's not my name it's me beelzebub i can only answer to my name Right. No, they lie. You're just giving him a cloak.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
I don't think that he's like totally opposed to lying. No, definitely not. Yeah. So I don't think it's on Tilly. I just wanted to make that clear. But after the seance, the story starts to get a little hazy and a little inconsistent. According to Marco Psaznik, Odell began, quote, alternating her beliefs that the problems with her son either were the work of the devil or their departed relative.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
She couldn't make her mind up. Both of those sound like bad choices. A stretch. Yeah. So basically she thought that either the house was being haunted by the spirit of Aunt Tilly or that some sort of demonic entity had attached itself to Ronald and he was now harassing the family. But Odell couldn't quite settle on which of the two she believed. The devil. I mean, there's a lot going on.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
So it's either the devil or Aunt Tilly. Or Aunt Tilly. And now we need Jesus Christ. You need Jesus Christ to intervene. You need your Lord and Savior. Now, whatever the case, this is the point where, according to skeptic Joe Nickel, quote, the case, which began as a seeming poltergeist outbreak, soon advanced to one of alleged spirit communication to one of supposed diabolic possession. Oh.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
I haven't heard that yet, and I can't wait for the moment that I do.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
I love when they use things perfect. I was like, agreed. Is she like the village girl? No, she's the redhead princess.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Yeah. Oh, I don't like Princess Peach either. Yeah, I don't mind her. She makes me really mad at Mario Party. I just wanted to say that. It's time to put that out. The village girl is diabolical. Yeah, the villagers are wild. I don't like them. No. Anyway, back to the story. Yeah.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
But then it made boats and hoes get stuck in my head. It did. So that's a whole thing. Yeah. But yeah. It's good that we're in a silly mood today because we're talking about something like moderately silly.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bowdern read the Novena, which is the Catholic devotional prayer. It also could be the Novena. I didn't look it up. And reportedly blessed the boy with a, quote, piece of bone from the forearm of St. Francis Xavier and fixed a relic-encrusted crucifix under the boy's pillow before leaving the room.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Yeah, a silly, goofy angle. It's kind of a wonky angle. Yes. The best way. It's like curved. Yeah, I like that. All right. Well, let's talk about the exorcism. Hello? Wow. I don't know what happened. I need an exorcism. Hello? All right. We're going to talk about the exorcism of one Roland Doe.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
So as long as the public has known about the exorcist's supposedly true origins, the character at the center of the story has always been known as Roland Doe, or sometimes Robbie Mannheim, I think. Mannheim? Mannheim. Mannheim. Both are obviously pseudonyms to protect his actual identity.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Did he say that that's okay for you to have? I don't know about that. He's not here to say. That's my whole point.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
So far he hasn't made a fuss. Maybe this is his fuss. Maybe this right here is his fuss.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
The fact that they just, they quote unquote blessed him with a piece of bone from the forearm of Mr. St. Francis Xavier. I don't know. And put a relic encrusted crucifix under his pillow. Yeah. You can't fucking make this up. No, you literally can't. Like, you can't make that up.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Well, a short time later, while the priests were sitting in the living room with the family, they heard a loud crash come from Ronald's room, Ronald Rowland's room, and ran in to see what happened.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
In the bedroom, they found that a large bookcase had slid across the room, a bench had been flipped over, and the crucifix that Father Baudern had put under the pillow appeared to be moved to the edge of the bed. Oh. Baudern also claimed that he witnessed the bed shaking when they entered the room, and it only came to a stop when Odell shouted, Aunt Tilly, stop! Here's my thought, though.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
But in December 2021, the Skeptical Inquirer, a magazine devoted to scientific skepticism, revealed the identity of Roland Doe. Hmm, can you believe that? It's crazy. Yeah. Well, they reasoned that he had passed away a year earlier, so there was not really any need for anonymity anymore. I suppose. I guess.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
She was the one doing it. I like it. Yeah. Well, the scene witnessed in Ronald's bedroom that night was enough to convince the priest that something had in fact possessed the boy. After a few nights spent weighing their options, the two men took their concerns to Archbishop Joseph Ritter. And not to be confused with John Ritter. No. This is Joseph Ritter. Oh, hi there, John Ritter. I know, RIP.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And on March 16th, Bowdoin was given permission to perform the rite of exorcism. He got permission from the archdiocese. Which usually doesn't happen. No, we're always wondering. The archdiocese is pretty stingy with their permission giving. They don't just hand it out. Interesting that they don't just hand it out, but they gave it to a man who wasn't super familiar with exorcisms. Yeah.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
They were like, you'll figure it out. They were confident in his abilities. I mean, he said he was coming up with a definition. It seems as though he did.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
That night, Bishop and Bowdern returned to the house, this time in the company of Bowdern's assistant, Father Walter Halloran, who becomes a bigger player later on, and started what would ultimately be an almost month-long process of attempting to exorcise whatever evil entity had possessed Ronald Hunkler. Now, if you've ever seen an exorcism, Yeah. Picture that happening for a month. No.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
That's insane. I don't have the stamina. A lot of times they last like a couple hours or like a couple days and even that is horrifying. A month. A month. Almost a month. Yeah. For reasons that remain unclear throughout the process, Ronald would be moved back and forth multiple times between his aunt's home in a local rectory and Alexian Brothers Hospital in St. Louis. Huh.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
So he was like hospitalized sometimes during this. Yeah. Now, after introducing the family to Father Halloran, Father Bodern wasted no time getting to work. You cannot waste time when you're exercising. No, it's time. Yeah, on the treadmill or in a religious way. Yeah.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
So in Ronald Rowland's bedroom, Bodern started talking with Ronald Rowland to, quote, examine his conscious and make an act of contrition before starting the rite. Then, joined by the two other priests and several family members, the group gathered around Ronald's bed and started praying.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
According to Father, as they prayed, the mattress began to lift slightly off the bed and then lower back down, but he insisted that the family ignore the theatrics and continue praying.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
I could not pray through that. No way. No. For hours, the three priests recited the rite in Latin while the family continued their prayer, and finally the first cycle of the rite had ended, and Father Bowdern concluded by shouting,
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
precipio tb which is i command thee love it i don't know if i said it really well but i did my best priest yelling in latin is one of the scariest things ever yeah i don't even like like you really shouldn't read the latin i should not read the latin you see what i did there i set that up but when he yelled that ronald screamed in what sounded like terrible pain oh no
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And as Father Bowdern was concerned, as far as he was concerned, Ronald's scream was evidence that he was indeed possessed and that the rite was actually working. Hell yeah. So the priest continued aggressively reciting that rite of exorcism as Ronald just writhed around uncomfortably on the bed.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
The identity of Roland Doe has been uncovered by an independent journalist two decades earlier. It had been. But the reporter actually opted not to publish the name for legal reasons. Probably smart. So people knew who he was for a little bit, but it was kept on the DL. Wow, that's shocking. I know. It was a different time. I was going to say that would never happen now.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
In his wild thrashing. He quickly kicked the blankets away, uncovering his body, and with his pajama top unbuttoned, the participants in the room watched as three red long welts appeared on his chest as if something was attempting to cut its way out of him from the inside. Damn. Yeah.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Later, Father Bishop would describe the welts as, quote, marks raised up above the surface of the skin, similar to an engraving. And Father Bonner, he paid no attention to the welts. He just carried on with his rite. Oh, yeah. As more and more welts started appearing on Ronald's body. The more they recited, the more Ronald appeared to be in, like, immense pain.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And soon the welts and scratches started producing faint lines of blood all over Ronald's legs, his stomach, and his back. Holy shit. Yeah. Yeah. The longer the ritual dragged on, the more and more pain Ronald seemed to experience. At one point, one of the relatives in the room claimed that they saw the image of the devil. The devil! The devil himself? Appear on Ronald's thigh. They saw it.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
In his journal, Bishop wrote, "...the arms were held above his head and seemed to be webbed, giving the hideous appearance of a bat." Okay. At other times in the evening. Bats are awesome. He's not saying they're not. A hideous appearance. Well, he actually is kind of saying that. It is rude. He should think about his words. Yeah.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
At other times in the evening, though, participants reported seeing words appear in the scratches on Ronald's body. People saw the words hell, go, and a large X on his thigh. Okay. And that was before the days of Twitter turning to X. Oh, shit. So I don't know what that meant exactly. Now, after hours of the Latin ritual, the group finally broke for the night because everybody was really tired.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Yeah. And Ronald appeared to fall into a deep sleep. But through the night, while still conscious, he would periodically slam his fists into the headboard above him or into his pillow. And the next morning, when Father Bodurn asked what he was dreaming about, Ronald said he had been fighting a huge red devil. It felt slimy and was extremely powerful. Okay. And Dave said, that sounds like puberty.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
He said, how else would you describe puberty if not slimy and extremely powerful? And I said, Dave, that's a great point. I said, I don't have an argument for you, sir. In the days and weeks that followed, both the exorcism and Ronald's behavior grew more and more aggressive and offensive.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
In one diary entry, Father Bowdern reports, from 12 midnight on, it was necessary to hold R during his fights with the spirit. Oh, that's good. They were like, he was violent, but he was never vulgar. He was never vulgar. It's important to know. It's important to know. But he was also swole. He was packing a punch. Swole beyond his years. Yeah, exactly.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Now, at times, Ronald would also speak in a, quote, diabolical, high-pitched voice. I love it. What is a diabolical, high-pitched voice?
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Can you please try it? So, like, we're talking like a demon high voice. Diabolical, high-pitched voice. It's got to be like... Do it. I'm trying to think of that. She's getting ready. She did something with her teeth.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
well exactly because in the year of our lord 2021 it got it got leaked it got leaked yeah so in 1999 though taking it back a little bit a journalist named mark op sasnick i believe was writing an article on the possession for strange magazine which i prefer when he interviewed father albert hughes one of the priests involved in the case oh damn that must have been gnarly Oh, my God.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
I don't like it. You got to show teeth when you do it. He doesn't like it either. He shook his head. I mean, it's diabolical. I'm just picturing like, I'll get you, my pretty. That's diabolical and high-pitched. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Thanks. I don't know. We weren't there. We weren't there. And unfortunately, they don't have voice notes from back then. They don't. Unfortunately. Yeah.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
He also was said to be swinging his fists at the priest and other adults in the room. He also supposedly broke Father Halloran's nose. Fuck. I know. And then at other times he would sit up normally in bed and just sing sweetly. Oh, that's nice. He would sit up and just go, abracadabra.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
oh that's great he would also sad cry off and on oh but then immediately his attitude would change and he'd start swearing he didn't eventually start swearing and being vulgar and he would also make masturbation gestures in order to embarrass the other people in the room keep it together that's diabolical it truly is
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Other times he would spout Latin words and phrases to the surprise of his parents, who swore that Ronald did not know Latin and had never been exposed to that language before. If I know one thing about my kid, it's that he doesn't know Latin. That's the thing. At times, though, he was said to be more lucid and appeared to be on the mend.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
So his parents started wondering maybe if it was time to return to Maryland and sent him back to school. Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. No, but there were like little like week long periods where he would be completely fine.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
So they'd be like, all right, you're 13. We got to give you to school. You got to learn and shit. This will just be a silly time we think about later where you were possessed for a little while. Honestly, what's funny is that's ultimately what ends up happening. This man lives a long life. This is a funny story that we look back on.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
But unfortunately, and this is so crazy, as soon as Ronald caught on to their conversations... He would become possessed again. Whoa. In one instance, when the subject of his returning to school came up, he started thrashing around on the bed and tore open his pajama top, and it revealed that the words no school were scratched on his chest. This demon does not fuck with the heavy learning.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
He said school. I wish it said that instead. That song wasn't a thing yet, I don't think. So as the days wore on, Ronald became more abusive to anyone and everyone who entered the room. He would swear at them. He would attempt and sometimes succeed to make himself vomit. Oh, that would piss me off. He would piss on himself. Oh, no. And otherwise be... Assaultive. Yeah.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Can you imagine? That'd be crazy. Let's sit with that for a second.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
In one instance, he managed to break one of the bed springs from the mattress and jam it into Father Bowdern's arm. Oh. Drawing blood, obviously. Another time when the family traveled back to Cottage City for a visit accompanied by Father Bowdern, Ronald became physically violent on the train. He was said to have punched Bowdern in the testicles and screamed, that's a nutcracker for you, isn't it?
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Which is low-key just teenage boy shit. That is low-key. I'm like, babe, he wasn't possessed.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
I love that part of it. That's a nutcracker for you, isn't it? Father. Can you confirm that's a nutcracker, Father? Can you confirm that I just cracked your nuts? These nuts.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
If he hadn't been pulled out of school and all that shit. Oh, he was Nutcracker in people when he was in school. He would be Nutcracker in everybody. He's 13 years old. And he'd be doing it and be like, that's a Nutcracker for you, huh?
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
He was doing that. That's why he got kicked out of school.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
I would have taken it on my phone. I would have taken it on my phone. 1943 wouldn't have stopped me getting that for TikTok. Well, for some reason, after all that craziness, on April 4th, the Hunklers decided it was time to go back to Maryland so that Edwin could go to work and Ronald Rowland could go back to school and Nutcracker someone else.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
The exorcist, I mean. What did you say? I said the exorcism. Who inspired the exorcism. The exorcism that was in the exorcism. Not a exorcism, the exorcism. Like, that's a big moment. Yeah.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Then, after five days in Maryland, Ronald started acting out again, so he got sent back to Missouri and admitted to a hospital where he was observed for psychiatric symptoms. Feeling like they'd left too soon, Edwin and Odell also returned to Missouri to support their son. Those are good parents right there. Yeah. The exorcism finally came to an end on the evening of April 18th.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
The priest had spent most of the afternoon and evening reciting the rite of exorcism over the boy, who now was draped in several religious medals and holding a crucifix in his hand. My God. The imagery. Yeah, it constructs a visual. Yeah.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
ronald rowland's demeanor changed again and he started thrashing about the bed claiming he was a fallen angel oh like the devil like sight like lucifer morning star yeah finally around 11 p.m a quote new masculine voice emerged from ronald who said satan satan i am saint michael i command you satan and the other evil spirits to leave this body in the name of dominus immediately now now now
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
All junior girls report to the gymnasium. Immediately. Oh my god. I haven't laughed this hard in years. Oh shit. I love a paranormal statue. They're so good. Well, after that, male voice emerged. That was a clip, by the way. Oh, man, it was. It was audio. They got it from 1948 or whatever. Oh, man. Yeah, whatever. That was funny. After that, Ronald Rowland's body spasmed one final time.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
I would assume top 10 in your life. Well, according to Hughes, the boy who was exorcised was from Cottage City, Maryland, and he, quote, went on to graduate from Gonzaga High and turned out fine. Anytime I say Gonzaga High, I just want to say Gorgonzola. And you do that for a reason. Yeah.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
He fell backward on the bed. And then in his normal 13-year-old voice, he said, he is gone. He said, he peaced out, y'all. Y'all, he left. He said, peace up, A-Town. Peace. So later. The ultimate Irish goodbye. He didn't feel like staying any longer.
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Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
So later, Ronald would tell Father Bodern in that final moment of possession, he had a vision of St. Michael holding a flaming sword.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
The Hunkler family stayed in Missouri with the family for 12 more days just to be sure that Satan was actually gone before finally returning home to Maryland. During this time, Father checked in with them regularly, but as far as anybody could tell, the possessing demon had left Ronald's body for good. For him.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
By all accounts, the phenomenon never occurred again once the Hunklers went back to Cottage City. Ronald was enrolled at Gorgonzola High School and he went on to college where he studied chemical engineering and went on to work as a scientist for NASA. Okay, Ronald. Period. Okay. The motherfucker who inspired the story of the Exorcist became a scientist for NASA. That blew my mind.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
That's the funnest fact. That is the funnest fact. The funnest of all facts. The funnest fact. Thank you for agreeing. That's really cool. In a letter dated August 19th, 1951, Father Bishop wrote of his visit to the Hunkler's house. He said, R, now 16, is a fine young man. His father and mother also became Catholic, having received their first Holy Communion on Christmas Day, 1950. Damn. Praise be.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Well, the diary of the account written by Father Bishop, like I said, became something of a legend at Georgetown University. Though few have actually seen it. I want to see it. Well, few have, so good luck. Yeah. No one seems to be able to settle on how long the document actually is. Some people say it's 16 pages and others say 26. Okay.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
But presumably this is how it came to the attention of the Washington Post and other Washington area papers in late 1949. where it gained some brief traction before mostly fading into obscurity, since none of the reporters seemed to be able to track down any of the participants to verify any kind of story.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Other sources allege that Father Luther Miles, the family's local priest, was the source to leak to the press, and that's when this story really came out. While some of the press reports minimize the supposed demonic possession, which is fucking lame, others chose to play it up or just tell it as it was.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
For all it was worth, citing the various ungodly messages that appeared on Ronald's body. Like no school. Like no school. That's ungodly. And the various examples of unknown telekinetic force, like when the picture of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was booty bumped off the wall. Exactly. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
If it wasn't for William Peter Blatty's 1971 novel and the movie that followed two years later, it's pretty likely that nobody actually would have ever heard of Roland Doe or Ronald Hunkler. It's true. But the timing was just right. Americans were taking a particular interest in the occult at the time, so the story was thrust back into the spotlight, and it kind of took on a life of its own.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Now, it's important to be clear that even Blatty's novel was heavily influenced by Ronald's story, even though it was. It's actually just one of several influential stories and events that also included the Lodun possessions and the Louvier's possession. Both were 17th century witch trials that I think you would probably be pretty interested in covering. So write that down, Biatch.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
I'm writing it down right now. And there were different archaeological excavations that occurred throughout the early to mid-19th century across Africa and the Middle East that also inspired his story. So with so many different versions of the story floating around in the cultural zeitgeist, the question remains, what exactly did happen to Ronald Hunkler in 1949?
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Was he possessed by a demonic presence or was there something even more complicated going on?
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
hmm who knows now at this point it's probably impossible to say with certainty what exactly happened to ronald but if there was an authority on the subject it would probably be investigative journalist markup sasnick more than just the individual responsible for discovering roland doe's real identity he also devoted a ton of time to the story he conducted interviews with more than a hundred people who actually knew the hunkler family personally
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
and the other figures in the story, all in an attempt to verify the details of what has become one of America's most iconic scary stories. And his interviews with Ronald's childhood friends and peers revealed that, far from being an ordinary shy boy, Ronald Hunkler was a very lonely, somewhat troubled kid who was struggling.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
His father never actually believed that his son was possessed, reportedly, was emotionally unavailable, so he rarely comes up in the story at all. And the women in his life, on the other hand, were hugely influential, almost to his detriment, especially like his mom, I think, using their love of spiritualism as maybe the only means of bonding with him.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And when it came to children his own age, it seems like his behavior and, you know, flaws kept them at an arm's length. But Obsaznik didn't just speak to Ronald's friends and family. He also tracked down anybody who was directly involved with the case or familiar enough with those who were.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And of the three priests at the center of the exorcism story, only Father Halloran was alive when Obsaznik began his investigation. At the time, Halloran actually reluctantly agreed to an interview, but he ended up revealing a lot about the case and its legacy. Oh, damn. When asked whether or not he would go on record as saying he believed that Ronald was truly possessed, he declined. Oh.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
He said, Oh. Oh. Oh. And as for Ronald speaking Latin, a language that he supposedly didn't know and had only occasionally heard, Father clarified, I think he mimicked us. Oh, okay. So he's a non-believer. Okay. You know? I mean, all valid. All valid. But the rest of his interview with Father Halloran unfolded in a similar thread. He recalled Ronald spitting and swearing a lot.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
He didn't have any recollection of Ronald vomiting or urinating. Oh, okay. And as far as the multiple reports of the bed moving, he acknowledged that they did, but he said it was on rollers like any bed at the time. So there was really no way of knowing if it was moving, like how it was moving. From him moving or if it was, okay. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Obsaznik's investigation obviously provides a lot of clarifying information around what did and didn't happen during the exorcism of Ronald Hunkler, but it also provides some insight as to why there are so many gaps in the story and how it managed to get out to the public. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Obsaznik pointed out no mention is made whatsoever of the alleged first exorcism attempted by Father Hughes at Georgetown University Hospital and nothing is written of the boy's father's feelings or level of involvement or the possible presence of psychosomatic illness within the boy. Interesting. Very interesting.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
If Mark Obsaznik and other skeptics are correct and Ronald Hunkler was never really possessed, then what actually did happen? Interesting. Alp Saznik says, To me, his behavior was indicative of an outcast youth who desperately wanted out of Bladensburg Junior High School at any cost. He wanted attention, and he wanted to leave the area and go to St. Louis. Throwing tantrums was the answer.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And you probably, you might have heard it in subconsciously. It's possible. And we're also just family. It's true. That proved it. And he'll even do it now. He's like, oh, Gorgonzola moved on to the next.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
He began to play his concocted game. For his efforts, he got a collection of priests who had no previous exorcism experience who doted over him as he lay strapped to a bed. His response was that of any normal child. He reacted with rage. He wanted out.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Without delving into the dynamics of psychosomatic illness, there's no question there was something wrong with Rob Doe prior to January 1949, something that modern era psychiatry might have best addressed. Rob Doe was not just another normal teenage boy.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
As his prize. He said he was upset and he got a collection of priests. And he got a collection of priests.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Do you feel as though you've won? Did you win? Did you win, Ronald? That's a real lose-lose. It is. Well, whether he was possessed or not, Ronald Hunkler's 1949 claims of possession did help to fuel America's imaginations and, of course, America's interest in the supernatural. And, of course, as one of the primary influences on The Exorcist, his story is everywhere.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
um round wow yeah look at us so connected gonzaga gonzorgola well with those facts and a few obtained a few other facts obtained from his research obsaznik was able to determine the years that the boy was in high school and after tracking down a copy of the 1954 gorgonzola gonzaga high school yearbook he narrowed the pool of potential boys to a very small number
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
It's like part of American supernatural lore. Yeah. And while we may never know if it was real or not, it seems at this point, it really doesn't matter. No, it really doesn't. It's a fun fucking story. The story is fucking a blast all the way through. I think it's great. Yeah. I like that story. I love that story.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Yeah. And I think my story is that he was possessed and until he helped him out. I like that. Thank you. Thank you. Jesus Christ. Amen. Jesus Christ. So, yeah. If you want to keep listening, we hope you do. We hope you keep listening. We hope you. Keep it going. Weird, but not so weird as getting a prize of three priests. Unless you want that. A collection of priests. You can have it.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And after cross-checking lists with the known attendees of St. James Church, where Albert Hughes was a priest, he was left with just one name. Ronald Hunkler. Ronald Hunkler? Ronald Hunkler. That's a cool name. It is. I like it. Hunkler? Hunkler. Yeah. The story of the Roland Doe and the Exorcist have been told and retold like a million gajillion times since the supposed possession occurred.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
But it's become very, very difficult, if not almost impossible, to tell all the facts from fictions. Those are my favorite kind of paranormal stories. They're the best. I don't want clear facts and fiction. Frankly, it's most paranormal stories.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
But then the popularity of the movie that came out made the already sensational story even more sensational with obviously aspects played up to promote the supernatural details of the story. So facts about Ronald and his life before and after the exorcism are sparse and a little difficult to verify. But here's what we do know. Ronald Edwin Hunkler was born June 1st, 1935.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Hey, that is my wedding anniversary. And the day that one Marilyn Monroe passed away. It's true. I didn't mean to do that. Yes. It was in Cottage City, Maryland that he was born to Edwin and Odell Hunkler. Isn't Odell a cool name? It is a cool name. I also love the name Edwin. I do too. I think that's a really cute name. That was Ronald's middle name and his father's name. Love it.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
So his father Edwin worked for the federal government and Odell, his mother, was a homemaker. Edwin was very fortunate in that he had a stable job during the peak of the Great Depression, but the pay was relatively low and the family definitely struggled financially a lot of the time.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And this struggle became even greater a few years after Ronald's birth when Odell's mother moved into their house, which obviously put in, you know, kind of an additional strain. Yeah. More mouths to feed, more resources being used. For sure.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Sitting about one mile outside the northeast border of Washington, D.C., Cottage City was and still is a pretty suburban area populated mostly by government employees like Edwin Hunkler was. According to Alvin Cagey, one of Ronald's childhood friends, Ronald, quote, had friends, but he was in a sense a little bit of a loner. He was somewhat sedentary, somewhat quiet, as his parents were.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
In his younger years, Ronald did have a best friend. For the purposes of this story, we're going to call him John. Love that name. We don't really. You do? I do. That's crazy. We don't really know, like, if his name was John or not, so we're just going to call him that. John. John. According to John's brother, JC, these two paired up and were virtually inseparable.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
They were loners who found each other, and they caused a lot of mischief. There was a close relationship there, a very close relationship. Good for them. Yeah. Loners causing mischief. Let's go. What's better? Kind of like what we do. But we're not really loners. No. Sort of. I don't know.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
According to JC, when the stories about a possessed boy began making their way around town, he immediately thought of Roland and John. Ronald and John. That's... That sucks that they used essentially the same name. No, it does. And let me tell you, it fucked me up the entire time I was reading about this and writing about it. Because Roland, Ronald.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
If I say the wrong name, I'm going to do my best to say Ronald the entire time because that is his name. But if I fuck up, just like laugh with me, okay?
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Yeah. I'm doing my best to say Ronald. But like imagine trying to save someone's identity and use essentially the same name. You literally just switch three letters. Yeah. Like that's fake. Come on. And if you have dyslexia, the fuck? Yeah. It's true. That's not cool. No.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
But JC said, you had these two mischief makers that had a strong tendency to take advantage of people who were weaker than themselves. Oh, that's not good. They were a pair of connivers and they had their act down. They were trying to outdo each other. So he's like, possessed boy has got something to do with the two of them. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Now, if JC remembered Ronald as a mischievous troublemaker, John, who was actually his friend, himself described Ronald in a lot more of extreme terms. According to John, Ronald's home life was anything but typical for a boy in the 1940s.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
He said Ronald was, quote, smothered by his obsessively religious mother and grandmother, who had deep interests in spiritualism and Ouija boards, shunned by his classmates at school, prone to traumas and even violent outbursts, and exhibited cruel and at times even sadistic behavior toward other children and even animals. Oh. Yeah, so there's a lot going on with his pathology. Oh, no.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And when it came to his father's influence on Ronald, both JC and John remembered Edwin Hunkler as a man who was physically present in the home, but emotionally absent anywhere else at the time, which was kind of common.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
That's not shocking. Yeah. But I think when you have all those other things at play, it's going to add to it. It was never good. No. Nobody came out of that in a great way. Yeah. JC said of the supposed paranormal activity, I think he could see what was going on, which is why he's never mentioned talking about Edwin. Interesting. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Now, since the story broke in the papers, and especially since the release of the book and then the movie, John really tried to distance himself from Ronald and avoid any association with the legend, which I can understand. In an interview in 1999, he said, Whoa. Damn. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Oh, my God. Thank you. Hey, everybody out there. You single ladies. This is Ash. This one goes out to all my queens. I don't know. All my queens. Now that I just started sounding like Trixie and Katya when they're like doing a bit. I like it. May I please have bread? Bread. Um, what's going on? I'm in a silly, goofy, funny, LOL mood. Me too. Yeah? I'm feeling it. Good. Feeling it.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
john himself wouldn't have actually described it in such intimate terms he said we were playmates and classmates people ask what he was like back then and i can tell you that he was never what you would call a normal child he was an only child and kind of spoiled and he was a mean bastard He was a mean bastard. I think it sounds like John just kind of put up with him for a while. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
It's like a friend. But you just like do. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that's just one of those. It's like then you move to like a new school, like you move up a grade and you kind of like branch out a little more and you're like, why the fuck was I friends with that asshole? Yeah, and you kind of float apart. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
So don't feel bad if you were friends with an asshole. Oh, yeah.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Yeah, she was an asshole. Well, as an illustration of Ronald's, Ronald's typical behavior, John remembered a story about a stray dog in the neighborhood.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
It's okay. okay that seemed to take a liking to ronald and vice versa they actually liked each other but apparently he said this dog was mean and nobody ever knew who owned it it just came out of nowhere no dog is mean he was a little mean he's not mean he doesn't mean to be he was treated badly i bet yeah probably no dog comes out mean you're right and they all go to heaven yeah
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
well and this is john's words he said well ronald basically adopted that dog that dog really was his best friend not me one time he called me up and told me to come over and i never really trusted him because he was sneaky and a real mean little bastard i was going over there and he was looking out from the basement window and when i got to his house i heard the back porch door slam and i knew right away what he'd done he'd done this sort of thing many times before to different kids
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
I started running like hell because he'd sick that dog on me. When I got home, he called me up and he was laughing like hell. That's the kind of person he was. I mean, that's pretty funny. It's a little silly. But also, that's fucked up. It is fucked up. A dog could have ate his face off. That's like super 1940s behavior, though, I feel. I think I've seen that in like several movies.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
But it's supposed to be his best friend. That's the shit you do to your best friend, though. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Yeah. You know? Yeah. No, that's obviously so true. I remember one time I had a play date with somebody who I thought was like my best friend and it was like the middle of winter and we were playing outside and they just locked me outside. Yeah, that's just, you know, that's just somebody you love. We were still besties after that. Of course you were. Yeah. Because that's love.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
That's what that is. New England is wild. We're different. We are. But John didn't like that. So people who knew Ronald as a child paint a picture of a pretty lonely boy overall, it sounds like. Also, you know, with pretty bad social skills since he's sick and his dog on people. Yeah, that is pretty rough.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
And, you know, obviously this is a great example of a tendency to behave in cruel, if not outright sadistic ways. Which is scary. Because while we can laugh a little bit, that is a fucked up thing to do. It is a fucked up thing to do. Especially knowing that the dog is mean. Well, that's the thing. All I'm hearing is that the dog was mean. It's like, I don't know what that means. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 662: The Exorcism of Roland Doe
Well, it's not only mean to like the friend, it's mean to the dog. You shouldn't put the dog in that position.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
That's a little bit scary. You understand why that happened, but that's definitely a little scary.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
Where are you at? Do you know where I'm at? I'm in a bad place. Oh, no. I'm in a bad, bad place. What place is this? It's the place of I don't have any more of my frosted sugar cookie holiday creamer. I am also in that place, so I commiserate. That creamer from International Delight. International Delight, if you're listening. Please send us some. Help me. Help me get to a good place. Because.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
They're gone. They're gone. Can't get them. They're absolutely gone. And do you know what happened to me the other day, actually? Oh.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
It's very interesting, and you and I have been talking about it lately, how certain social climates will just desensitize people to the worst things.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
Why I oughta. I ordered two on DoorDash and I gave a nice little tip and everything. And I said, if not available, just refund me because I don't want some other bullshit. No. They didn't want to refund me. So the Dasher brought me two random ass fucking... Creamers, which like they were International Delight. And actually, I shouldn't complain because one of them is like Italian sweet cream.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
Getting your license is like super exciting and then getting your first car and all that. What's not like the most exciting part of all of that is insurance. I remember being like, where do I even start? Why are there 452 insurance companies? Which one actually cares about me? I'm so stressed.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
Well, I wish that when I was 16 years old, Insurify was an insurance comparison site that I had known about. But now it is. Insurify is an insurance comparison site, and it has dozens of top insurers compete for your business, which drives the prices down. Insurify lets you compare real-time quotes from dozens of top insurers, including the names that you know and that you trust.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
The entire Insurify process is handled completely online. Amazing. That means no annoying phone calls, no ridiculous fees, no spam ever. Back in my day, I had to call so many people. But get this. With Insurify, you can get insurance coverage in as little as 10 minutes. Do you understand how groundbreaking that is?
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
Get to Insurify.com to compare car insurance quotes in real time and start saving today. That's I-N-S-U-R-I-F-Y dot com. Insurify dot com. Average potential savings based on initial quotes received by 183,234 customers seeking insurance through Insurify. Actual savings may vary depending on state of residence, individual circumstances, coverage selections, and insurance provider.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
Savings results are not guaranteed.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
Oh, I love this sweet cream. That one's really good. That one's really good. So I'm not super mad. But anyways, International Delight, please send me a whole entire list.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
You miss 100% of the shots that you don't take. Wayne Gretzky, Michael Scott. There you go. I just office. Nailed it.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
No, they still have it. I'm sure they do. Okay. I believe you. What do they do with it? I trust you. Then they have the recipe. Yeah, give me it. I don't even care if it's in that fancy bottle. You can just send it to me. In a jug. In a jug, please. In a vat, if you would. Send it to me in a barrel. Just please. Just please. In a keg, if you will. Send me a cow that makes that. I'll milk him.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
My thought was that possibly he like chased her somehow and she dropped her purse along the way. And then like you said, somebody else did her stuff. I think someone else probably did. I do wonder if like, obviously there's such an escalation here.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
If he didn't do everything that he did to his second victim, to his first victim, because it was a little bit more like in this case, he's in an apartment tucked away. He has all the time in the world. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
So they just weren't available at the first crime scene.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
There's a lot in life that feels like it should be guaranteed, but it just isn't. Things like your friends being on their way when they text you LMW or getting out the same number of socks from the dryer that you put in. AT&T is introducing a new guarantee, the AT&T Guarantee, because there's a lot in life that's not guaranteed.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
Send me a keg of the Frosted Sugar Cookie. I would keg stand that. I would do a keg stand on that. That's horrifying. One thing I never did is a keg stand. Me neither. I mean, everybody knows that. I know what I was going to say.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
So this motherfucker's in the Air Force?
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
Isn't it so scary how like somebody can look so unassuming and even charming and then they're this.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
I used to, but I just didn't do that. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, I just really want that. My life is hard without it. Today I did the... My life is hard without it. My life is hard without it. I did this sweet cream today and I made it through. It's only like two o'clock. We're really proud of you. Thanks. Everybody, keep Ashton your thoughts. It's hard. Thank you.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
I know I've literally never heard of this.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
That I couldn't move. That's the thing somehow that I was focused on.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
I can't even begin to think what you would do with a potato peeler to somebody. Like, oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. That poor, poor woman. Thank God her daughter didn't see that. That's the thing. That's the thing. I don't know how you would ever go on. No. I don't think you do. Even just hearing what had happened to her mother to, like, oh, my God. Like, how do you even? I'm speechless right now. 15.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
That's the other thing, 15 in the middle of the war, like motherless. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
My God, I can't imagine the police just going from scene to scene like this.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
He's obviously good-looking enough to have charmed these women, normal-looking enough and normal-seeming enough. That no one's batting an eye. And he's in the Air Force. He had to have passed some kind of... Well, I don't know how that worked back then, actually.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
I know now you have to pass so many tests to be cleared to be part of the military. I think you still needed to pass, you know, certain tests. So it's like... So he passed some of those tests and it's like, jeez louise.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
Well, it's the same, like, victim profile.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
To use a potato peeler on somebody, to stab somebody with a bread knife, I mean, to kill anybody, obviously, but the lengths that he's going to and, like, you know, assaulting, sexually assaulting them with these objects and... Yeah. Oh, my God. It's... I think this is definitely...
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
up there with some of the most brutal cases that you have covered i agree i was shocked i am shocked right now i think it's good that we're ending here for part one because i think oh damn should we bring back palate cleansers i know seriously i think everybody needs a quick palate cleanser so go listen to the rewatcher for that
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
I'm very excited to hear the part where he gets caught and sentenced to so many years in prison. I hope all the years. All the years.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
Yeah. Well, fuck. Yeah. Okay, well, thanks for listening. And we hope you keep it weird. Oh, but not so weird that this. I'm so shocked that I can't actually even speak right now. Yeah, she was just like, am I supposed to say something? Not that weird.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
Never that. We don't have to tell you that.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
That's so unassuming. Yeah, just Gordon. I just always think of Gordon Ramsay. He's very assuming. He's pretty assuming. He's just an idiot sandwich.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
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Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
Oh, God. And that just adds to the feeling, the overall feeling.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
In every way. There are so many people who have genuine, like people say, oh, I'm scared of the dark, but there are people who have literal phobias of the dark. Can you imagine having to deal with that?
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
Listen, I don't know about you guys, but obviously I have some bad habits that I want to shrug off. You know, we've all got bad habits that we try to shake off. And even though I'm not going around doing shady stuff like some of the people that we'd be talking about on this podcast, it's always a good idea to make moves towards good habits. I'll see you next time.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
orange vanilla, and new peach blush. I have the peach blush one and it is yummy. With flavored air, you can satisfy your oral fixation through a passive diffusion system that utilizes no electronics, vapor, or combustion. There's no nicotine. It's not addictive. It's non-toxic flavors. It is a guilt-free alternative. Plus, no batteries, so you never need to even charge it.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
Fume has served over 300,000 customers, and you can be the next success story. For a limited time, use my code MORBID to get a free gift with your Journey Pack. Head to tryfume.com, that's tryfum.com, and use code MORBID to get a free gift with your order today. Oh, this holiday season was absolutely bonkers. I have never been more excited for the new year.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
And part of that excitement is Thrive Market. I'm ready to get my booty in check with making these, you know, good decisions for my eating habits. You know, it's a crazy statistic. Over 10,000 chemicals have entered our U.S. food supply, yet the EU limits this to just 300 additives. Thrive Market makes it so easy to find better options without the hassle.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
One of my absolute favorite features is the healthy swap scanner in the Thrive Market app. It's super simple. You just scan any item, like any food that you really enjoy, and it will instantly suggest cleaner, healthier grocery alternatives. For me, I've been swapping out really sugary snacks with Chomp's Beef Sticks. Those things go crazy. They have multiple flavors.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
The jalapeno one rocks my world. Thrive Market also takes the guesswork out of finding safe and healthy food. All their products are 100% non-GMO and free from over 1,000 harmful ingredients. Actually, I'm really trying to up my protein this year, and I love filtering their site by using the high-protein option so that I am completely stocked with all my high-protein needs.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
Like those chomp sticks, I'm telling you, you gotta try them. Ready for a junk-free start to 2025? Head to thrivemarket.com slash morbid and get 30% off your first order. plus a free $60 gift. That's thrivemarket.com slash morbid. Thrivemarket.com slash morbid.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
Fucks it up, exactly. And like puts everybody in danger. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 635: Gordon Cummins: The Blackout Ripper (Part 1)
It's morbid. And it's 2025. It's 2025. Yeah, it's been 2025 for like a half of it, I think. Like our last couple episodes, maybe. Like, you know, we don't know.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Hey weirdos, before we unleash today's macabre mystery, we were wondering, have you ever heard of Wondery Plus? It's like a secret passage to an ad-free lair with early access to episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But the lessons that she learned from her parents that helped her succeed academically kind of became a hindrance when it came to making friends. She was smart. She was very pretty, very well liked to a degree. But there was also distance between her and her peers.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
One classmate who seems like a very surface level individual recalled, I never could be fond of Jean because she wasn't interested in clothes, styles, all the giggle dumb things that we used to do. And boys, she hardly seemed to care about them at all. It's like, okay. First of all, not everyone is attracted to the opposite sex. Jean was, but, like, that's a weird thing to go off of.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Good luck with that. Damn. School, though, quickly became Jean's refuge because there she got the approval and praise that she was really craving from her father. Yeah. But never got. Later, she would say, I loved school. I loved having a star on my forehead when I was little. I loved sitting in the sunroom of our big house and doing my homework, and I loved my teachers. Oh.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Which really tells you that, like, she got everything she needed there. And then going home, like, creeped them. Yeah. Which is just... Also, kudos to those teachers. Hell yeah. We love teachers. Hell yeah, teachers. But she threw herself into academics and extracurriculars.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
She joined as many clubs as she possibly could, attended as many school events as she was able to, mostly as a means of avoiding her dad.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But ultimately, she built up a really impressive resume by the time she graduated high school. Good for her.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
you know like it's like when we say you can be sad for the child or you can you can say good for her for who she was at one point before all yeah whatever happens i will gene lost her way okay but it's a lot more complicated than that okay it's this is a very layered story i ultimately don't agree with what she does ever um but there's a lot of layers to it there's a lot of layers to it this is not there's a lot of gray area okay in this story
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Good to say that at the top. No one think I'm like praising someone that I know what they did. No. Well, and right now you're praising her for the good things that she did.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
That's all you know. Just being clear. And when we get to the, we're going to get to a part and I think you and I are going to feel. And I'm going to go, oh. Well, and I think you and I are going to have very similar opinions. Okay. There's a fall from humanity. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. But we're not there yet. After her graduation in 1941, Jean enrolled at the Smith College in Massachusetts.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Oh, shit. She studied economics there, and she actually minored in Spanish.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Like her high school experience, she threw herself into those studies completely. In her free time, she sang in the Glee Club, and she joined the water ballet team. Water? Is that just like synchronized swimming? I think it's ballet in the water.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Probably. Probably. I didn't know water ballet was a thing. Sounds beautiful. But now that I think of it, is that at the Olympics?
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And it's definitely more what it is. One, I guess you could probably do it solo. Yeah. Because then technically it wouldn't have to be synchronized. Yeah. Very true. So look at us. We really worked through that there.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But while she wasn't engrossed in her schoolwork, she spent her time writing to her boyfriend, Jim Harris, who she'd started dating while she was still in high school. After graduation, Jim went and joined the Naval Air Corps and was stationed in the South Pacific. So they really stayed in touch primarily through letters.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But she happily agreed. In 1946, when she was 23, they did finally get married and they settled down in Michigan. Jim's parents were thrilled to add a daughter-in-law to the family. They loved Jean. But Jean's father could not have been any more disappointed. In fact, he made zero zilch, null attempt to hide. He was outright with the fact that he did not like this guy.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
According to journalist Shana Alexander, Albert was furious. He warned Jean that she was throwing her life away. He was certain Jim Harris was not good enough for her, and he made sure that Jim too knew how he felt.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Well, and it's also just, it's kind of a continued message of, like, nothing you ever do is good enough.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Right. Right. Yeah. It wasn't only that Albert disliked Jim Harris, but he actually thought the entire Harris family were ignorant fools.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Mostly because of their progressive political opinions and support of the Roosevelt administration.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
It tells you a lot. Damn, damn, damn, damn, damn. Whether or not Jean was throwing her life away was obviously a matter of opinion. But in hindsight, she did recognize that her marriage had a lot less to do with love than it did with defiance of her father. She wanted to go against him. She liked that it was bothering her. Yeah. She said, when I got married, I had no conception of love.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Defying dad was the main reason I married Jim. Also, unlike dad, he was very quiet, which is kind of a baller statement. Yeah. Again, I say, damn. She's like, listen, my dad sucked. He didn't like this guy. This guy's quiet. I can do what I want. This guy's quiet.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
This guy shuts his fucking mouth.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I appreciate that about him. And I love that she's like, unlike my loud ass snobby motherfucker of a dad, this guy's quiet. This guy shuts the fuck up. Wow. Yeah. Meet Fume, the flavored air device designed to help you ditch the bad habits and feel good about what you're reaching for.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
It was founded on this idea that if we stick to good habits, making a change feels easier and less pressurized.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
fume has lots and lots of delicious flavors to choose from like crisp mint orange vanilla i actually tried that one it's pretty good and peach blush i'm actually excited to try that one with flavored air you could satisfy your oral fixation through a passive diffusion system that utilizes no electronics vapor or combustion there's no nicotine it's not addictive it's non-toxic flavors really it's a guilt-free alternative plus even better no batteries so you never even have to charge it
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Fume has already helped over 400,000 people take steps toward better habits, and now it's your turn. To kick off the new year, use our code MORBID to get a free gift with your Journey Pack. Head to tryfume.com. That's tryfume.com. Use code MORBID to claim this limited-time offer today. Bye! Hey, weirdos. If you guys know one thing about us, it's that we love a deep dive.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Scam Factory early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Obviously, in the 1940s, women didn't have a ton of options for independence. So if Jean wanted to get away from her dad and her family home, which she very much did, marriage was the easiest and the fastest way to do that.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
For sure. And at the very least, she did choose somebody who treated her with kindness and was entirely predictable. Okay. Yeah. It's a safe life. Yeah. To those who knew her well, though, Jean's marriage to Jim didn't make any fucking sense. She was very smart. She was an independent woman. We know she loved the arts. She loved culture. She was the ultimate conversationalist. She was passionate.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
She had a lot of big dreams. Jim had smaller ambitions, and he didn't seem to want a lot out of life. He was a simple guy. Yeah, you know?
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
He's just Jim. Well, people are different. We all want different things out of life. It doesn't make him a bad guy for not wanting. No, for not, like, you know. For just wanting a simple home life, you know? Yeah, whatever fulfills him. Yeah. Jean's friend Leslie McDougall recalled she was desperate to marry Jim Harris. I never understood it. He was a little man in every way. Jean had intellect.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
She was brainy. Everything she got into, she did well. He loved to putter, to trim the hedge. As she got more interesting, he got duller. And in the notes, Dave wrote, damn, what a savage read. I was dying. Honestly, yeah. Yeah. That is like shit. I was like, whew. Damn. She was doing it all. Yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Now, while the schedule was without a doubt exhausting, very taxing, it was important to Jean that she apply her training and her intellect to a job that she saw as valuable. And to her, there was nothing more valuable than helping to mold the minds of children. She loved teaching. Oh, I love that. And she loved being a part of kids' lives.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Well, back to Jean. Her domestic responsibilities increased a year or two later when Jim's newly widowed father moved in with them. Jean really loved her father-in-law and she never complained about living with him. But according to several neighbors, Albert Harris expected to be treated as a guest in the house rather than an occupant who contributed to the work of a running home. Ah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Which, you know what? You live that long, you lose your wife.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Your kid's got to take care of you at some point. At this point, he's probably like, you know what? Fuck it. Fuck it.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Like, treat me like a guest.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I get to a certain age, and I've raised you all up, you know? Yeah, you treat me like a guest. Yeah, come on. But also, it doesn't sound like Jim was, like, really doing a lot, and it's his dad, so that's a little tough.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But the workload increased again two years later in 1950, when Jean gave birth to their first child, David, and then a couple years later, a second child, Jimmy. So they had their hands full. Yeah. Yeah. The expectations of motherhood were made even more stressful by Jean's postpartum depression after Jimmy's birth.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And remember, this was not a time... Even now, I feel like we don't have a full understanding of postpartum depression. Picture it in the 1950s. That sounds nightmarish. They'd give you, like, some meth about it. Yeah, that's a nightmarish scenario in the 1950s. It's sad. So a lot of times, Jean found herself crying over... what most people would consider very small things or no reason at all.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I like St. Patrick's Day when you put green dye in the toilet and you see the leprechauns peed and they found a flush. They fucking love that. I'm co-opting that when I have kids.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Like, she didn't know why she was crying. She just was. Oh, that sounds awful. It's very sad. But fortunately, her postpartum didn't last super long. Well, that's good. But even after it passed, friends did notice changes to her behavior. I think it left its mark on her.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. But one friend said, she made such an enormous effort, but she was extremely volatile. We had a cup of tea together every single day, and I never knew whether I'd find a happy woman, a sad woman, or an angry woman. Ooh, that's tough.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
So it sounds like I think I shouldn't have said that it didn't last very long because I really don't think there's a way of measuring how long she was going through it. I think she might have just got better at managing it. Maybe she was just pushing it to the side. But it was still affecting her daily life.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But although she never hesitated to join the PTA or engage with neighbors and parents of her kids' classmates, her ability to integrate with others did remain somewhat of a problem into her adulthood. At the time, Grosse Pointe, where she was living and teaching, it's a suburb of Detroit, was home to some of the automotive industry's wealthiest families.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And there was a very rigid social hierarchy that was all based on wealth, of course. Yeah. As a school teacher and the wife of a middle class husband, she never really cared about material things. And since her childhood, she actually really tried to find value outside of monetary terms. But because of the way that everything worked, she was a little bit of an outcast among everybody else.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
That makes sense. Yeah. And she really struggled to make strong connections because of that. That's rough. Yeah. In the early 60s, Jean's dissatisfaction with her life was becoming even more apparent to those around her. Her friend Bob Scripps recalled, Wow.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
everybody's really reading that's the thing i'm like i couldn't find anything to like outright say that jim was an asshole so i'm just like it just sounds like he was kind of like he was just kind of like a plain jane a plain jim you know yeah plain jim yeah just just vibrant into his own beat i'm like wow nobody likes you nobody thought you were interesting like that's rough that's sad i know i feel i feel a little bad for jim yeah does jim do anything that i shouldn't feel bad for him no okay not that i know of
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I couldn't find it. That's the thing. I couldn't find anything that I could call him an asshole about.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
No, it doesn't sound like it.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I'm like, come on. You be happy with you, Jim, okay? I want to take Jim to a theme park.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Let's find a little excitement here.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I got Alina multiple book nooks for her birthday. Hell yeah. But by then, by that point, Jean had started taking courses in a master's program where she was finding a lot of purpose. But when she thought about her future as a housewife and a mother in Grosse Pointe, that idea became increasingly unsustainable. She was finding a lot of purpose kind of like pouring into her own cup. Yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But I think she kind of like took a little like a scope out and was like, I don't know if this is going to
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
if this is gonna last yeah like yeah so her life with jim didn't exactly end it kind of just fizzled out there wasn't a lot of drama there wasn't a lot of anger everything just fizzled it just kind of was like this isn't gonna be yeah forever yeah all right by 1964 she came to the conclusion that she did not want to be married anymore and she reached out to her friend and lawyer jeptha sherman i think it is who helped her navigate obviously a pretty complex divorce process at that time
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Sherman said, some people should never marry, and Jean is one of them. She's a superior person, and there are not too many suitable matches for a person like that. Jeez. I know. People are really talking her up. They do. Yeah. So Jean and Jim Harris' marriage officially came to an end in 1965. And while it wasn't the most amicable divorce in the world, I don't really know if there are many.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
yeah gene said gene was said to navigate it with a remarkable grace her lawyer said she was never accusatory about jim harris everyone knew what he was he was never guilty of false advertising about himself but gene would never say a word against him she was an admirable client in a real rotten divorce so it all and in that sense it like it seems like he wasn't a bad guy it just wasn't
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
but by that point everybody could see how unhappy gene was in her life so when it came to an end the divorce and the marriage everybody was rooting for her yeah so after leaving uh jim gene and the kids moved in with one of her close friends dodie blaine she needed to move in with a friend to make it for a while and dodie had also gone through a divorce around the same time so they spent a lot of time reflecting on and discussing what had gone wrong in their respective marriages and they both reasonably concluded that they had just simply chosen the wrong man
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
which I'm sure a lot of people who get divorced can relate to. But this, of course, led to the question, if their respective ex-husbands were the wrong man, then who was the right man? Who is he? Who's the right man? Who's this man for me? Well, Jean had given this matter a great deal of thought. Oh, had she? And she said her answer was very simple. She said very probably he was a Jewish doctor.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I like that she's just like, I know. Specific. I know who the right man for me is. It's giving Charlotte. It is. Charlotte York from Sex and the City. Yes, absolutely it is. During one of their many talks, Jean told Dodie, being Jewish, he'd be a man of superior intelligence and education, and that his, quote, Semitic background would also make him warm-hearted and passionate, yet protective.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
She said Jewish husbands really take care of their women. Wow, she really thought this one through. She did, yeah. I like it. So her desire to find the right man might have fueled her fantasies, but she never let it interfere with the responsibilities of her real life.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
After the divorce, she felt a lot of guilt for disrupting her two sons' lives and she tried every chance she could to make it up to them. She wanted to make sure that they had the best of the best and that they would have a great start to their adult lives once they were done with high school. Yeah, she seemed like a good mom. It's good to hear that. Yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
For a lot of women in her position, it was possible to rely on their parents for help in raising kids as a single parent. Yeah. But not the case with Jean. Albert, her father, seemed to have about as much fondness for his grandsons as he did for their father and, quote, flatly refused to contribute to the cost of their education. This is their maternal grandfather.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
It sounds so fun. What do you mean? I think it's really shitty to he didn't like their dad and he took that out on them. Yeah. It's like, sure, that's their father. And like, that's half of who they are. But yeah, it's like that's not their fault, though. Well, that's the thing. That's not their choice, so why are you holding that against them? Yeah. It's just, it's strange to me.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah, it really is. But also, Jean hadn't requested any alimony during the divorce process, and she was only getting about $200 a month in child support, which for two kids was not a lot. No. So if she wanted to ensure a bright future and this world-class education that she wanted to give her sons... she was going to have to find a way to increase her income dramatically.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
So now singularly focused, she put her own PhD work on hold and contacted the vocational office at Smith College for guidance and finding a better job because she's an alum there. Yeah. She told them she wanted to move on from teaching and work her way up to school administration because obviously she knew that paid better.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Before long, the vocational office got back to her, and they had an offer of a position of director of the middle school at Springsdale, which was an elite all-girls prep school in Chestnut Hill, which is a wealthy suburb of Philadelphia. And this would pay about $12,000 a year, which right now would be about $117,000. Wow. Okay. So that's a great annual salary.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
She eagerly accepted, of course, and started making preparations to move to the East Coast. So a few months later, she was settling into her new life in Pennsylvania and was already thriving at her position in Springsdale.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
While she was dedicated to the new position and dove in with a lot of enthusiasm, she still managed to find the time to make sure that her kids were also adjusting to their new home, keeping up with their requirements because they were both on scholarship.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
you know helping with their schoolwork mom duties in late december though she called up her old friend marge jacobson in new york and marge was like girl you gotta come out to new york i am throwing a dinner party this weekend and you know you gotta relax a little bit you gotta let loose you gotta come to my party oh damn and jean was like i don't know like it's gonna cost money to go and you know we just got the kids settled but ultimately she did agree to go to the party
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Good. Yeah, she needed it a little bit. Yeah. I wish she had gone to like a different party, but... Uh-oh. The party's fine, but you know. So among the attendees at Marge's party that night was Dr. Herman Tarnower. He was a prominent New York cardiologist at the time and obviously a friend of the Jacobsons.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Jean didn't know a lot about him other than the fact that he was a friend of Marge and Marge's husband. Yeah. But she was immediately captivated by him. He had quite the presence. He was very charming. He had that like commanding presence. It seemed everybody around him from his friends to his patients had an unyielding devotion to this man. Oh. He's got charisma. Charisma.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Uniqueness, nerve, and talent. So that night, Jean and Herman spent the entire evening chatting. They were obviously each trying to impress each other with intellect and quick wit. Banta. Banta. When the party came to an end and they parted ways, Jean assumed she'd probably never see this guy again.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But a few days later, she was at home in bed with a backache and a gift unexpectedly arrived from Dr. Herman Tarnower.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And when she opened the small package, it contained a book on Israeli art and a brief note that read, it's time you knew more about the Jews.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Okay. Yeah. Although she had only spent one night talking with Dr. Tarnower, Jean was completely taken with him and was convinced that she had finally found that quote unquote right man that she described to her friend Dodie all those years earlier. She nailed it. He's a Jewish doctor. He fits the bill that she described. Yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And then, a few days after the little gift the book arrived at her house, a card arrived in the mail from Dr. Tarnower. And it read, Okay. I don't love that note. Okay, thank you.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
That would not tickle my fancy. No, that would not get me. But Jean was swept away by this. Hey, to each their own, you know? So this was Jean's thing. And she was very excited when another card arrived a few weeks later, this time from Kenya, where Dr. Townhour was visiting. asking whether or not she'd be interested in getting together with him in New York in March.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
As it just so happened, Gene was actually planning to be at a conference in New York that very weekend. Sounds kismet. Sounds kismet, so she eagerly agreed to meet him for dinner. Now, throughout her marriage to Jim, one of the things that really irked Gene about him was his lack of initiative and, like, creativity. Yeah. He didn't really have any ideas or wants of his own.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Which made it so that she had to always decide everything. Yeah, and I can understand why that would be frustrating. Yeah. So to her delight, Herman was the exact opposite. He was decisive and firm, happy to choose the restaurant or the evening's activities, and high, as she began to call him, was thoughtful, adventurous, and very romantic.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Did you cut the strawberries into little heart shapes?
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
So within a few days of the dinner in New York, flowers arrived at Jean's office and her house. Two sets of flowers. And High called to check back in. It was like everything she wanted in a man, like she described to Dodie a few years earlier, had materialized and been handed to her. It really sounds that way. Yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
So a few weeks later, Jean was back in New York, this time to celebrate High's 57th birthday. And over the course of the weekend, they saw a Broadway show together. They saw all the New York landmarks, ate at some of the nicest restaurants.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Unlike her ex-husband, whose interests were, according to her, pedestrian and vapid, at least to Jean, High was cultured and seemed to pursue his interests with enthusiasm, which is, again, exactly what she was looking for. So within a few months of dating, Jean and High had completely fallen in love. And High disclosed to his friend, Mark Jacobson, that he was planning on asking Jean to marry him.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Whoa. By then, Jean had met a lot of High's friends at the galas and the country club events that they went to on weekends or at the dinner parties that he would hold in his very opulent home. To those who knew them, their affection for one another was obvious, so it came as no surprise to Marge that High wanted to marry Jean, even though their romance had been pretty short up to that point.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah, it feels that way. It was like, it wasn't a surprise, but it was like a little like right now.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah, I saw this coming, but I was thinking maybe like a little more down the road. Yeah. But in a letter dated March 1967 to Jean from High, he expressed those feelings in writing. So he said, "'Darling, I love you very, very much. How can I tell? I miss you and want to share so many things with you. Sharing that must be love. Are most people who marry in love?'
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
What happens? So few are really happy. You will give me all the answers this weekend. Drive carefully. You will be transporting valuable cargo. Wow.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I'm in a place of sex in the city. It's giving Richard.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
oh my god yes it's got richard vibes richard wow i kind of loved richard you can't not love richard that's the thing you gotta hate him later but yeah i hate him at some point but you'll love him till then i get it you did so that spring and summer the romance deepened which was reflected in their regular communications hi wrote in a letter another letter in the spring darling my love for you grows deeper all the time i feel that we could be very very happy together
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
May I suggest we try to spend a very, very long weekend together around Memorial Day to see if you can really put up with me for more than a few hours without getting terribly irritated or bored.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
It was clear from the letters that High was building up to ask Jean to marry him.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And over that long Memorial Day weekend, he did just that, giving her an emerald cut diamond ring.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Proposing in a very traditional fashion. Love that. I love an emerald cut.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I love a noble cut. That's what I have, but I also love an emerald cut. Like, just to be clear. I'm like, I love both. High's proposal came as kind of a shock to everybody who knew him best and had seen the way that he had dodged commitment time and time again in the past. Mrs. Arthur Schulte, a friend who had known High for years, said, He always had very attractive women friends.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
He was always very generous with time and money, but he never married.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
gene on the other hand though thought little if anything of high's history with women and just happily accepted his proposal which you can understand yeah since the early days of her marriage to jim harris she fantasized about having a partner who was her intellectual equal but who could also provide a sense of security and she felt like she had found that in high yeah but the problem though is that fantasies don't usually hold together when they're subjected to all the complexities of the real world no they tend to bend under pressure
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
They do. And, you know, we're going to get there. But Jean was ecstatic about High's proposal of marriage. And despite the fact that marrying him would require uprooting her life and starting over in New York, she didn't hesitate to say yes in the moment.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. I feel like, you know, you just do what you can. You do what you can. I got you like a random Lego set. I love that. Big into Lego. So I'm like, any occasion, I'll just get you a fucking Lego set.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
What she hadn't thought about, though, was how uprooting that life would affect her teenage sons, who had already had their lives disrupted by their parents' divorce just a few years earlier. Yeah, you're right. But it did occur to her at a certain point. That summer, during a visit with Marge Jacobson, the reality of everything started to sink in for Jean.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And she said, Marge, I cannot marry high for a year. I cannot take those children out of school again. I took them away from their father already. Well, that was, I mean, that was thoughtful. Yeah, and I feel like that speaks to the kind of mom that she was. But, you know, her concerns were reasonable, but they turned out to be actually completely unnecessary.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
In August, just a few months after he'd proposed, Jean raised the issue of setting a date for the wedding so she could make longer-term plans. And to her surprise, I hesitated, something that he rarely did in conversation, and said, Jean, I can't go through with it. I'm afraid of it. I can't go through with it, and I'm sorry. Wow. Yeah. I didn't see that coming. Yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Everyone who knew Jean expected High's response to come as a big shock to her, actually, like it just was to you. But she responded very coolly. She told friends, it hurt for a while, I suppose, but I'm not very surprised. He isn't a marrying man. I don't really know what all the reasons are. Huh. Yeah. So. Interesting. Yeah. It took quite the turn.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
It was like, I feel like it was so, you know, hot and heavy for lack of a better term for a while. And like really reached a pinnacle point. And then it burned out like. Yeah. But it doesn't burn completely out.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Eventually it does. But it kind of like burns out then goes, it's like a heartbeat monitor where it's like up, down, up, down, you know. And then it kind of flat lines for a minute.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
forever yeah okay so with marriage off the table gene put her engagement ring back in its box wrapped it up and sent it back to high not wanting to reveal her disappointment to her former fiance damn but to her surprise high called the moment he received the ring and insisted that she keep it and a few days later he actually drove down to philadelphia himself ring in hand and again insisted that she keep it wow
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
That night, according to Jean's sons, she and High locked themselves in the bedroom and argued about the future of their relationship for hours. From High's perspective, Jean deserved to be with somebody who wanted to marry her, and that just wasn't him. He just simply didn't want to be married. So in his mind, the right thing to do was to remove himself from the equation.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
His decision not to get married appeared to put an end to the relationship altogether, but in the weeks that followed, they did continue to see each other from time to time. And in the meantime, and between all of that, Jean threw herself completely into work to try to distract herself from just the disappointment of it all.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And at the same time, her chronic back pain, which she had actually struggled with for most of her life, started flaring up worse than ever. It seems like stress fed into that. Yeah, anxiety and stuff. Yeah. As soon as High heard about Jean's back pain from friends, he called her immediately and recommended a new painkiller and even went as far as sending her a prescription for the pills.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
So the distance from High, the painkillers, all together, appeared to have given Jean some clarity around their relationship. And she started to consider if she might be willing to compromise her wants, especially if it meant that she was not going to lose him forever.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. I want to get one of those Dunkin' Donuts donuts today that has the brownie batter in the middle. Oh, fuck yeah. Why didn't we get those? Because I'm getting something delivered. I already ordered it.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
What seems to have occurred to Jean was the fact that High's desire to no longer see her or marry her didn't mean that he didn't love her, just that he wanted to protect her reputation from anybody who might see their not being married as somehow abnormal. Because at the time, you didn't have like a long-term partner. You got married. You're living in sin. You're living in sin. Yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
After all, though, High Tarnower was a fiercely independent, strong-willed man who rarely compromised. And that aspect of his personality was probably not going to change so late in life. And she knew that. So one night, a few months after they separated, Jean wrote High a letter saying, Dear High, what a strange and wonderful and awful three months these have been.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
and what a lot of soul-searching thoughts they have evoked. I know a letter from me is not what you want most in the world, but there are so many important things to say. Everything about us is important to me, Hai, because I've never experienced love before until you. And love, I've discovered, means wanting to share every thought and sensation. In fact, needing to share.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
As far as never seeing you again is concerned, I won't let it happen, however much you protest. If your social engagements continue to be as pressing as they are this weekend, perhaps you could work me in during office hours. Wow. Yeah. Also, I just want to write letters again.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I love a letter. Yeah. Shana Alexander, the journalist I mentioned early, wrote, Yeah. It's impossible to know what Dr. Hermann Hightower understood his relationship with Jean to be, but it is clear that they probably would have described it in decidedly different terms.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
To Jean, everything that was starting back up again was a restoration of the way that things had been, even though it was on a restricted schedule where she could only see him on the weekends or holidays or when he had time to see her.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
For High, on the other hand, Jean's apparent compromise seemed, as Shane Alexander suggested, to have been interpreted as her implicit permission for him to carry on his bachelor lifestyle and just be able to casually see her when their schedules would allow. Yeah. So basically she was like, it's just going to be that I'll see him on a limited schedule.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And he was like, it's just that I'll see her on a limited schedule. And in between then I can fuck whoever I want.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. Basically, it became an open relationship without ever having a conversation about it, which is never good. An open relationship, I'm sure, can work, but there's got to be a sit-down conversation where limits and parameters are set up.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Did you just see the full mobility in my eyebrows?
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
So to High's closest friends, the turn in his relationship with Jean and his selfish desire to carry on exactly as he pleased did not come as much of a surprise. When she learned that the marriage had been called off, Marge Jacobson reached out to High to find out what had happened, and she really only got a basic explanation.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
He said, Jean understands that we won't marry, but I have promised her that I would take care of her, and I mean it. She's remembered in my will. So she was in his will. Damn. Yeah. This is so like... It's kind of progressive. Yeah, it's very interesting. It's progressive, but... But not at the same time.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But like the complete opposite of progressive because it's Gene giving in to him, you know?
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I stopped getting it. I'm in recovery from Botox. Hell yeah. Yeah. I love your face. Thank you.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And well, and ultimately, that's not what Jean wanted.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Right. And it doesn't sound, I couldn't find any information to see that Jean had other relationships too that she, you know, filled her time with when she wasn't seeing High. So it was kind of like a one-sided open relationship.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah, that's definitely not ideal. Yeah. And again, it's not, I don't think it's what she ultimately wanted. No. I think she just didn't want to lose him.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. So she gave up her own wants and needs.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Which was really unlike her. Yeah. But to Marge, the response was characteristic of Dr. Tarnower's typical cold detachment. Years later, she said, the truth is, I think High was incapable of loving. He had tremendous family feeling, but without love. High only loved himself and was quite insensitive to everybody else. Oh, that's sad. I know.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
you that's so nice i'm working on loving it too you should i should um but yeah i ordered some crumble cookies oh yay and they're all fun valentine's oh i'm excited there's one that's like a strawberry cake oh bitch on the it's like you know when you get a cupcake and you like rip the bottom off and you make it a sandwich it's like yeah
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
She once told a close friend, High is great to be with because he's so selfish. He does what he wants, and that makes him a damn good company. Is there anyone worse to be around than some self-made martyr forever telling you I did it for the children's sake? It sounds like she was convincing herself. I'm sorry, what?
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I think a lot of people can relate to this sentiment of convincing yourself that you're... 100%. That a terrible quality in somebody is actually their best quality.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And it's also, like, it's like this weird... form of self-sabotage. It really is. Because it's like, no, it's you be selfish. Yeah. If you think that's a great quality, possess it for a little bit. Be selfish. Do what you want to do, Jean. That's the thing.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And you don't even have to be selfish to do that. No. But he is, you know, he was being selfish.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
It really is. It is. Well, and it's complicated because she let it happen. Absolutely. So there are a lot of men that if they're allowed to be selfish, they're going to be.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. So anyway, going back to the story, one woman who dated Dr. Tarnower described him as, quote, a Jewish bachelor prince accustomed to being pursued. But at the same time, High seemed to proudly reject the need for love and connection as a human weakness. Shana Alexander wrote, I don't love anybody and I don't need anybody, became his proud and oft-repeated credo. Oh, man. Yeah, which...
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
clearly yeah something happened along the along the way very clearly yeah maybe something in childhood maybe there's got to be something in that yeah maybe like a first relationship for sure something is there yeah it's possible that gene's perspective on high uh high's personality was some kind of a defense mechanism like we were just saying or it's also possible that she just completely romanticized his behavior to make it more tolerable
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I think it's a mixture of both.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
It's also like, isn't that like, it's just, that sounds like a lot of work. I mean, yeah. Aren't you tired? But it sounds like a lot of work, but it also sounds like it was filling his cup in a different way. And again, I think it points back to, I think he actually needed to be loved on a, on a different level.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Well, and he goes right. Doesn't sound like a lot of work. He goes right up to the point of commitment.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And sometimes even makes that commitment and then backs out.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Well, listen to this. Yeah, there was in some cases, these relationships that he was carrying on were short term casual relationships. But some of them were what I'm sure the women considered to be serious. Yeah, there were two women that he proposed to one in 1970 and one in 1971. Before ultimately calling off those engagements just like he had with Jean. Damn.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
So, like, he would get right there. Yeah. And I do wonder, I could see this going both ways. I could see it as he maybe was like, I want to get married. Like, I'm supposed to get married. This is what I'm going to do. Yeah. Or... it's what those women needed to stick around for the extra mile.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Or maybe he thought that that's what he wanted. Yeah, who knows? Decided to call it off.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
He's not here to say, unfortunately. So whether he was just completely oblivious or cruel can never be known. But High seemed, at least on certain occasions, to be under the impression that Jean did share his casual attitude toward their relationship.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
In the two instances that he proposed marriage to other women in 1970 and 1971, he actually called Jean to announce his engagements, which is a little cruel in my opinion. But I don't know if he thought... Yikes. You know, we're in an open relationship. I'm also like, did you think that, like, those women were going to be down for that?
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
possible you never know i don't it's possible yeah i don't think that yeah it doesn't sound like there was a lot of like discussions around this the form of this relationship i also and again pure speculation i think this became a little bit of a game yeah and i think there was some satisfaction in stringing along and yeah pull holding off in some i mean i
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Well, to most who knew him, those around him, this, you know, calling her and being like, hey, I'm engaged. Oh, that didn't work out, but I'm engaged again, was just further evidence of his tendency to be a little cruel and a little thoughtless. But Jean, Tarnower's consummate apologist, tried to maintain a sense of humor about it, at least in public situations.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
She once joked to a friend, when he told me she had four children, I knew he'd never marry her. What? Wow. It's just like, oh. Damn. Again, I say, damn. I know. As time went on, though, Jean took whatever hot was willing to give, but otherwise focused her attention on her career.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
In 1972, she left the school she was working at for a position as headmistress at the Thomas School, another all-girls private school. This was in, I think it's Rowayton, Connecticut? Yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But the relocation to Connecticut brought her closer to New York, and a lot of her friends speculated that that was not an accident, that she probably took that job so that she would have a shorter commute to see High.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Should he want to see her, though?
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Because it was like he told her when they were going to get together.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Well, and again, going back to her childhood, think about what was ingrained in her.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Well, and then in going even further, so that was her whole childhood. And then she married a man who she felt was the complete opposite of that. And that didn't work out. So she went right back to square one. Yeah. And she was like, how do I, how do I manage to keep this?
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And I'm sure she saw it as like her problem when obviously it wasn't. For sure. It was just...
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I think it just adds a layer when you do, but you're right.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Sometimes that just happens.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And it kind of was like, I'll see you when I see you.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Oh, yeah. I can relate to it. My dad is not Gene's dad by any sense, but we have a strained relationship. He wasn't a huge part of my childhood. I love my dad, but it's not... My relationship with my dad is not my ideal relationship. No. And my...
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
relationship with my mom as we all know is not super fuego no so not super in my early years like in my teens and like very early 20s i was seeking out relationships for sure i would get the most attention but they weren't great relationships exactly any attention or any attention yeah any attention was good attention even like you know yeah but then you you
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
You either realize that that's a pattern and you divert from that pattern, which I did because Drew is the most amazing man on the planet. Yeah. Or you stay on that road and it doesn't work out.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
and why he was saying like truthful things and being open i was like totally averse to it because i was like i what like who are you well and you know what i also think obviously the father is a big part of the way that women pick partners i also think other experiences in life for sure like not to like bring it to a dark place but you were bullied yeah your first relationship was not iconic no and then your second one was not even less iconic relationship
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But then you, as you get older, you do, you can, again, divert from that path and kind of start to find the things that you like about yourself.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this right here, you bitches, is Morbid. You bitches, it's Morbid.
Morbid
Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And then when somebody is then, you know, confirming those things that they like those things too.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But then you're like, oh, shit, I do deserve this. Yeah, that's the thing. I think, I hope, and I wish that every woman or person got to that point.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
You absolutely deserve it.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. Take it. We've been so like self-help lately.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
We're in a place of positivity.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Well, so back to the story.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
It is. Some of you guys missed that. So this is for you.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And we're allowed to go off track. So bitch, here it is. I do what I want. Yeah. So most of the time. So she took a new job. And again, she took the job. At least in part to be closer to be a little closer. So she took her new job. At the time of her move, private schools around the country were going through kind of a rough period.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
There was a national recession going on and obviously widespread financial difficulties were causing enrollments to drop, which, of course, then dramatically affected the budgets at the Thomas School and others like it. In her time at Springside, where she used to work, Jean had actually gained a reputation for being a very tough but very efficient administrator.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
So the offer of the new position at the Thomas School came with the understanding that she would be expected to turn things around for the struggling institution. And one of the big things that they needed from her was to improve enrollment, among other things. Yeah. So that was a very high stress, very high pressure job.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And I think in a previous point in her life, it would have been a great job for her. Yeah. At this point in her life, it did not suit her in the slightest. She had always been a little bit moody and kind of irritable at times. But after taking the job at the Thomas School, everybody noticed that she was becoming even more unpredictable. Yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
She would often lose her composure and even scream at students over the slightest things. And things at the school were a lot more dire than she even anticipated. Oh, man. And she was very much in over her head. It was a lot more than just one person was going to be able to pass. In 1975, the Thomas School actually closed permanently. Oh, damn. And Jean found herself out of work.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And she was forced to take a job with the Allied Maintenance Corporation, which was a janitorial supply company. It paid well, the job, but for Jean, who always wanted her work to contribute to the betterment of children, it was a slog. And even worse, it didn't really carry any of the prestige or social status that she enjoyed as being a headmistress at an elite private school.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
So while her professional life had become mundane and disappointing, her personal life was really in no better shape. Things with High hadn't changed, and her chronic back problems were persisting, even getting worse. and actually caused her to develop a heavy reliance on desoxin, which was a prescription painkiller prescribed to her by Dr. Tarnower. Oh. It's an interesting choice of a painkiller.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. Throughout the 1970s and into the early 80s, desoxin, a brand name for the generic drug methamphetamine, was technically approved for the treatment of ADHD, but was also approved by the FDA for the off-label treatment of obesity and narcolepsy, among other things. Essentially, they said, just do meth about it.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
That's like not that long ago. I mean now.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah, I'd be like 12 if that was the case or even younger.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I don't know math. But let's get back to the math. Like many stimulants, dysoxin, aka meth, had some serious physical and psychological side effects, including... Yeah, I would think. It's a last resort for a lot of people at this point. Yeah. But back then... But a resort.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Going back then, they were just like, here, do this. But the side effects included increased heart rate, rapid breathing, tremors, restlessness, increased body temperature, euphoria, but unfortunately dysphoria as well, grandiosity, repetitive and obsessive behaviors, the list goes on.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
These side effects also tended to be more common in people who were not diagnosed with ADHD, because this was a medicine to treat ADHD. So if you don't have that,
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
the side effects are going to be worse yeah for sure gene experienced many of those uh side effects listed above because she did not have adhd and she even experienced other side effects as well oh man according to sheena alexander desoxan is not just speed but high speed it hits the central nervous system five to ten times faster than ordinary amphetamines rather in the manner of cocaine Wow.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
So it's snap, instant. It hits you. Oh, that's so scary. It is. It absolutely is. Yeah. So aside from that, things started looking up in mid-1977. Aside from the meth. Aside from the meth of it all, things were looking up.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
In mid-1977, Jean learned about an opening for another headmistress position at the Madeira School, which, again, was one of the nation's most prestigious private schools in Washington, D.C., The job actually paid less than what she was making at Allied Maintenance and would require her to move further from New York. And that meant further from Hightower.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But for somebody in her field, the job was considered a crowning achievement because of the prestigious nature. Thanks to the desoxin, Jean's back pain was manageable and helped her accomplish far more than she might have otherwise been able to, which impressed the board at Madeira, and soon she was installed as the school's new headmistress. Damn.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
So the job was a welcome distraction for her because her life had become really lonely at this point. Her kids had left for school, for college, and after college they, you know, went on to college. Starting families of their own, going to find jobs, that whole thing. So she was by herself. And when she wasn't at work, she spent a lot of her time just alone.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And on the increasingly rare occasions when she and High did spend time together, it was clear that things between them had really changed.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Once assertive and vibrant, Jean was very demure now in High's presence and didn't participate in a lot of conversations the way that she had in the past. And for his part, High seemed more distant and cold with Jean than he had ever been. He rarely told her that he loved her. And actually, according to people who knew them, kind of seemed to delight in withholding affection from her. That sucks.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I think it got to his head a little bit. Yeah. Like, the nature of their relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I could see that. You know? It's easy for that to happen. It is, yeah. The change in Dr. Tarnower's attitude towards Jean may have had something to do with his ongoing relationship with a woman named Lynn Typhros, who was his lab assistant at the Scarsdale Medical Group.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Lynn and I dated kind of casually for a few years, but by the time Jean started at the Madeira School in 1977, Lynn and I had become more serious. Like his other relationships, High's relationship with Lynn was not a secret and obviously wasn't something he was trying to keep from Jean.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But in the past, Jean had always tried to maintain a casual attitude about High dating other women, including Lynn herself. But the more and more time they were spending together, Lynn and High, it was clear that something was different here. The relationship seemed far more serious. And for probably the first time in her relationship with him, Jean started to feel uncontrollable jealousy. Oh, no.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Which I'm sure the meth didn't help. I'm sure that did not help. Probably not. Jean's feelings of jealousy were often exacerbated by the overlapping presence of she and Lynn in Dr. Tarnower's life. Yeah. That's going to be hard. Oh, yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Like, for instance, on one occasion in July 1976, Jean was spending the weekend at High's apartment in New York, and Lynn just arrived to the apartment with her kids to use his pool. Oof. So his kids just hop in the pool, and Lynn starts painting the patio furniture around where Jean was sitting.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
So Jean tried to ignore her for a little bit, but finally turned to Lynn and said, does it not seem bizarre to you, Lynn, that you're here painting his furniture while I'm here? It seems real bizarre. It seems bizarre. The whole thing seems bizarre to me, Jean. Lynn apparently didn't understand what she meant. And Jean rephrased the question and said, Lynn, why the hell are you here?
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And in response, she said, Lynn said, I'm here because I'm allowed to be. And she kept painting.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Have you ever, oh my God, if anybody is looking for like a good, like, it's not even like a rom-com. I hate to say this, but it's a chick flick. Yeah. The Other Woman. Oh, yeah. Such a good movie. Remember we watched that with Ma once? Yes. It's such a good movie. We absolutely did. I love that movie. I'm telling you, best thing you can do. Band together and ruin his life. Yeah. That's all.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Not in this case. No. So Lynn has never spoken publicly about her relationship with Herman Tarnower, and Dr. Tarnower is unable to speak for himself, so we only have Jean's interpretation of events, which are probably biased. Okay.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But still, to the outside observer, it did seem that while he might not have orchestrated the run-ins between Lynn and Jean, Dr. Tarnower still got a certain amount of pleasure that came from the drama, you know? In fact, according to Alexander, many observers surmise that Tarnower deliberately encouraged each woman to be jealous of the next in order to feed his own ego.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
He encourages Jean to think of Lynn as a slut. To Lynn, he evidently portrays Jean as a bothersome old lady. Oh, man. By the way, that's a quote. That's not my words. Rather than a prank call from some random person, though, the call seemed to be targeting Jean specifically, telling her that she was old and pathetic, quote-unquote, and that she should, quote-unquote, roll over and die. Holy shit.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Other times, the caller would describe explicit sex acts that Dr. Tarnower had performed on other women.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And the caller suggested that Jean should, quote, take sex lessons. Implying that, like, she wasn't pleasing him anymore. Wow. So she started with getting these calls at home. But before long, the call started coming in at work, where the anonymous caller would leave a phone number with Jean's secretary and request a return call.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And when Jean would call the number, they would start up again with the harassing comments and just hang up abruptly.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I'm sorry. That's just like, imagine. I'm literally taking it to a place of sex in the city again.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
That's a dumb thing to say. Remember though, in sex in the city, when they go to that tantric sex class together.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I feel like that's a sex lesson.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Where are those? Okie doke. Okie doke. Whenever Jean received one of these calls, she would immediately call Lynn and accuse her of making the calls, even though she didn't recognize the voice. Or she figured maybe Lynn arranged for somebody else to make the calls. Yeah. But every time Lynn claimed she had nothing to do with this and demanded that Jean just stop calling her.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
She even went as far, Lynn went as far as complaining to High that Gene had been harassing her and High took Lynn's side and demanded that Gene stop the foolish behavior or he would end their relationship.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And it's like, that's, yeah, get out of there. Yeah. Well, the calls were soon followed by obscene letters sent to Jean's home and office, which were always written in a very unfamiliar handwriting. In time, she changed her phone number actually multiple times. But every time this caller managed to get the new number and the harassment continued. Jeez.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
You have to assume it was somebody that he was seeing. Absolutely. Because I don't think Lynn and Jean were the only people he was seeing. So I'm sure he had some kind of, um, what is it? Rotodile? Is that like what it is? Where you like- Rolodex? Rolodex.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And would write down Jean's new number and someone would get it. But before long, the stress started taking a toll on Jean, which only exacerbated her depression and anxiety. And one day in 1978, she got a call from a former co-worker at the Thomas School, psychiatric social worker Sig Gerhardt, wondering if she might be planning to be in New York City soon.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Gerhardt always respected Jean and really loved working with her. He said, to me, she represented everything I think an educated woman should be. But for all her professionalism, he could tell that she was in distress. He said later she was in great fear of something, like she was paranoid.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
So he had no immediate plans to be in the city, but he told Jean that if it was important, he would make the time and go see her. So she declined to take him up on the offer, immediately minimizing her needs. He said she wouldn't open up, she wouldn't tell me what it was, and I never heard from her again. But it was very clear she was not doing well. No, it doesn't sound like it. Yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
The mysterious phone calls and letters, which would literally never be solved, weren't the only harassment that Jean experienced at the time. In 1979, after returning home from a trip to the Caribbean with High, she found several pieces of her clothing that she kept at his apartment had been slashed and ripped.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And it also appeared that several items of clothing had been speared with something, quote, brown and sticky. That Jean concluded was feces.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
When feces enters the chat, you leave the chat.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
That's when I leave the conversation. Yeah. That's really upsetting. It is. And you just wonder who it was. I'm like, who the fuck did that? We never find out. God, I don't want to. Yeah, I don't even want to know. But like the harassing phone calls, Jean herself concluded that Lynn was behind the destruction of her clothing. Of course. But she could never say with complete certainty. No.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And we forgot to have him sign.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
She never would be able to. But she would devolve a lot further into... madness, I would say, and a lot of just other really sad things that we're going to get into in part two.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I think we really set the scene there. We got to know Jean in her early childhood. We're ramping up. And we're on a downward trajectory now.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
So we're going to save that for part two.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
It's on and it's full of feces.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. No, there's no more feces.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
We forgot to have you sign our hand.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I was like, oh, no. Can you imagine?
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
No, that's it. So in the meantime, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. You want to do it?
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
The hands that we have people sign when they come into the office.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
It's gonna be... We haven't actually recorded it yet, so it's gonna be really interesting to see if Elena's alive afterwards.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
It's Valentine's Day. It is. I sounded pissed about that. I'm not. It's fucking Valentine's Day.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
When they say treat yourself, Alayna went. I treated myself. Went big or went home.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
No. I think that's all of our bid nasty. Yeah, I think so. AKA business. Bid nasty. Yeah. And with that, we'll get into this. Let's go. It was a very exciting intro and super happy. We're like, oh my God, it's Valentine's Day. This is a story about two lovers. It's not happy or celebratory or any of the above. I know Unexpectedly.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
that i think yeah i would hope not you came to the wrong place if that's what you were looking for um it is an interesting story and i'll tell you up at the top it's going to be two parts um part one is definitely going to be a little bit longer than part two because there's a lot of kind of setup that we have to get through okay um so this is going to be titled if you're uh listening gene harris and the murder of herman tarnauer
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
So we're going to start with Jean first. Jean was, Jean Struven was her maiden name. She was born April 27th, 1923. She was the second of four children born to Albert and Mildred Struven. Struven. Isn't that a fun last name to say? I like that. Struven. Yeah.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah, no, I'm happy about the Valentine's Day of it all.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
From an early age, she felt like she could never really live up to the high standard of her older sister, Mary Margaret, who was described as the family's good girl.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
She's got to be. Despite feeling like the underdog a lot of times, Jean did remember her early life fondly. Albert and Mildred raised the family in Cleveland, Ohio, and they were definitely wealthier than most families at the time. They had a maid, a laundress. The kids all went to private school.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah, they were doing well. In 1983, Jean said, I was raised by my mother, but my father was almost never home, which is sad. That is sad. And while she looked back on most of her memories from childhood with a certain fondness, it wasn't without its traumas. Her dad, Albert, by all accounts, was a very brilliant, very successful man.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But he also was remembered by most as a, quote, champion tyrant, bigot, and snob. Oh. So, like, not somebody I want to hang out with.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
no we're not like we'll do like a little something like i woke up to a cute little like array on the counter this morning oh see that's cute yeah we don't always honestly i i gotta like be real here drew is a lot better at valentine's day than i am like i i usually wake up to something and then i'm like oh fuck i didn't i'm gonna like run out later and get you like discount candy i don't know why i said candy like that
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But successful, I guess. Yeah, that's usually the case. Yeah. His temper was notorious, and bouts of anger and rage were set off by very minor inconveniences, which is not great when you have children, because I'm sure that comes with a lot of inconveniences.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And as a parent, your kind of entire job is to teach kids not to do that. So how are you going to teach them not to do that when you're doing it yourself?
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. It sounds very of the time. Oh, for sure. A father of the time. Very of the time. Yeah. Shortly before her dad died in 1980, Jean put it pretty simply when she said, my father should not have had any children. That's so sad. It is, especially as his child saying that. Yeah. She did love him. She admired his intelligence, but she also recognized that he was a very unhappy man.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And a lot of his anger and temper came from basically like taking out his own disappointments on other people.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yes, exactly. One of Jean's oldest friends said, I think Jean admired her father very much, and she also hated his guts. He was cold, ever-complaining, impossible to please, autocratic, and nasty.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
You have to learn, I think, sometimes to unlove your parents for your own peace of mind and well-being. That was a deep statement. It was a little bit deep and relatable. Anyway, the home environment in general, mostly thanks to Albert, was one of constant competition because he set his kids up against each other. And just tension because he was always angry.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
The only one of his kids who he seemed to approve of was Mary Margaret. Ah. She was the oldest. And like I said earlier, Jean just could never measure up to her no matter how hard she tried, which is really sad.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
You should all be equal and you should be loved exactly the same. You're each your own thing. Yeah. Like you're your own entity. And we love you because of that.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
That should be the message. But this type of environment was probably where Jean developed some of her worst and what would become most harmful instincts, especially when it came to pleasing men.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
I mean, things like that are set up in childhood.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But at the same time, she also developed more positive perspectives, especially from her mom. When she was young, I love this, her mom would tell her, a curtsy doesn't mean one doggone thing. I want you to always look people in the eye and tell them the truth. You measure people from the neck up, Jean.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
yeah bitch she sounds like a bad bitch i love that that i think that quote is fucking great damn yeah you measure people from the neck up a curtsy don't mean one doggone thing that's badass i like that i love doggone no not one doggone thing nope So while her father was pretty terrible overall, Jean's mother was stern but in a different way, and she could learn a lot from her.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
And it was from Mildred that she learned to treat others with respect and kindness and to actually value things like intelligence and talent over just money and social status. I love that. They had money and they had social status, but her mom was like, these are important things, but intelligence and kindness and respect are going to take you far. Are more important.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
Yeah. So for the rest of her life, these two very enormous influences would be at war inside of Jean and play a pretty critical role in her adult life. Yeah, because they're very, like, conflicting. Very conflicting. Ideals. Yeah. In elementary school, for example, she studied hard, she did really well, but she never wanted to let her intelligence be seen as a bad thing.
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Episode 651: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 1)
But this year I did really fucking good. Hell yeah. I went a little, I went, I like upped the ante this year.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Hey weirdos, before we unleash today's macabre mystery, we were wondering, have you ever heard of Wondery Plus? It's like a secret passage to an ad-free lair with early access to episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
The caller, Marianne Fraser, explained that her 12-year-old daughter, Robin Samsoe, had left the house earlier that day, but she hadn't been seen or heard from since leaving her friend's house on her bicycle that afternoon. Which is so typical. Yeah, of course. Just going out on a bike ride with your friend.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
At that time, it was very common for kids to be reported missing only to turn up a couple days later, though, having run away. But in his statement to the press, Lieutenant Bruce Young told reporters, Robin is a, quote, very dependable child who had no history of being a runaway and had never been in any trouble of this nature before. This was not like her.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
A few days into the investigation of Robin's disappearance, Huntington Beach Police got a call from Dana Crappa, a Forestry Service firefighter, who thought she might have actually seen Robin on the day she went missing.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
According to Crappa, she was on her way to work that afternoon, and she was driving up Santa Anita Canyon Road when she saw a Datsun F-10 station wagon parked at a local turnout area. And she remembered the car because she had actually nearly collided head-on with a similar vehicle a few days earlier, which was weird.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
As she got closer, she said she saw a dark-haired man forcefully steering, quote-unquote, a blonde girl into the woods toward a dry riverbank. She said, she said it was less alarming than it was unusual. So she kept, I was like, I feel like that would be. How is that not alarming? I feel like that would be both alarming and unusual.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
It sounded like I had really big veneers in.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
So she kept driving and she ignored what she saw. It had completely left her thoughts by the time she reached her destination. That's wild. And it wasn't until she saw the notices about the missing girl that she remembered the incident. At the time of her phone call, police had just reported that they were, quote, no further ahead in the investigation than they were a week ago.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
So the call from this forestry firefighter was the first real lead that they had. Lieutenant Young described the suspect as a, quote, man in his 30s, 5 foot 11 to 6 feet tall with collar length, dark curly hair.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
The description of that man seen by Crappa matched those given by Robin's friends who actually said a man had approached them earlier that day on the beach and asked if he could take their pictures. So all of the description of him, the man that Crappa saw, and the description by Robin's friends all are lining up. Yep.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
This is Ash, you guys. This is Ass.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
On July 2nd, William Popke, a member of the Forest Service spraying crew, was clearing brush near the Chantry Flat campground near the Sierra Madre foothills, and he came across skeletonized human remains that were scattered across the ravine. According to his report, and this is a little brutal, the skull was separated from the neck and the lower teeth were fractured.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
It almost looked to him like the individual had been struck in the face with a hard object.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
And she was 12. 12 years old. When the medical examiner arrived to remove the body, he noted that the left foot and portion, quote unquote, portions of the hands were missing.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
jesus christ yeah by the time the body was discovered the scene had been thoroughly trampled by wildlife so that was going to explain some of that but still investigators found critical evidence near the body including a cane cut brand kitchen knife with blood droplets on it and a beach towel with white stains of what was eventually determined to be type a blood
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Nearby, there was additional blood evidence found among a pile of rocks and leaves, but there was no clothing found at the scene other than one tennis shoe that bore the name Robin on the inside. Oh, God. Just one tennis shoe. The name in the shoe prompted investigators to check dental records of Robin Samsoe, which would end up being a match for those remains.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Twelve years old. Twelve years old. The medical examiner would later conclude, actually, that the most likely cause of death in Robin's death was stabbing.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Yeah. Given the advanced decomp, it was pretty impossible for the medical examiner to determine if Robin had been sexually assaulted. But investigators in Huntington Beach strongly suspected that this was their killer's motive. Detective Ron Jenkins said, we're assuming Robin was sexually assaulted and this guy is going to do it again.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Yeah. While the medical examiner had been unable to determine the exact cause of death because he thought maybe stabbing, but he couldn't be sure, investigators were treating it as a homicide no matter what. Jenkins told a reporter from the LA Times, I don't think a healthy 12-year-old girl walked 50 miles to the hills and then just laid down and died. No. No. I think we can safely say that.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Definitely not. And also how crazy is it that while Rodney Alcala was working at the LA Times, these cases were happening. Like people were reporting on these cases while he works there. While he's working there. Which is just nuts to think about.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Oh yeah, of course he did. I'm sure they were all talking about it and he was so excited about it. Now, the strongest lead investigators had was the description of the man seen at the beach and then later with Robin near the area where her body was discovered.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
But the problem was that description also matched thousands of people in California and didn't really help investigators narrow down their pool of suspects. Detective Jenkins said, I've had 50 calls from Laguna Beach to Santa Monica about who this guy is since we put out the description of him. If I had 50 people, we could check all these guys in one day.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
But there's only so many of us, so we have to put the names in some sort of priority.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Investigators also asked for the public's help in locating the bike that Robin had been riding when she disappeared. It wasn't found at the scene, and it hadn't been seen since she left her friend's house that afternoon. Fortunately, Jenkins and his team of investigators would not have to wait long for the public's help.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
A few days after they released the sketch of the suspect, Officer Dennis McNaught contacted the Huntington Beach Division and reported that the sketch and the description of the suspect matched a parolee that he had on his caseload a few years back. And his name was Rodney Alcala. So we love a parole officer finally coming through. Thank goodness. Yeah. It's about time. It's about time.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
According to McNaught, Alcala had a history as a child molester and a quote, known penchant for prurient photography of children. Jesus Christ. It's disgusting. He's a fucking monster. And not only that, but he strongly resembled the sketch that police had released. And it turned out that Officer McNutt was not alone in his belief.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
A few days later, Donald Haynes, which if you remember that name, he's the Good Samaritan who reported the assault on Tali Shapiro. He called the tip line to report that the man in the sketch strongly resembled Alcala, who he remembered from the assault on Tali. Donald Haynes, good Samaritan of the motherfucking century.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
We tell that, the former story, way more often than the latter of Donald Haynes. Absolutely. It's incredible. I feel like he, I hope he was like the head of his neighborhood watch because I would feel so safe with that man says my neighbor. I hope he just thrived. I also, I should look, I don't know why I didn't already.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
I should look and see if he got some kind of reward because he absolutely should have. Yeah. Some kind of acknowledgement. He's adorable by the way. Oh yeah? Yeah. He just, he looks like an adorable old man. I feel like good people who are like have good insides, sometimes it like really shines through. Yeah. You know? It's true.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
But based on the tips from the public, his criminal history, and the fact that he was known to frequent the area where Robin's remains were discovered, investigators were granted a warrant for Alcala's arrest and a warrant to search his home and his car. On July 24th, detectives arrived at Alcala's mother's house for the 457th time. That's me being hyperbolic, but barely. But, like, not really.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
it's so apocalyptic it is and it must feel that way to lose absolutely everything yeah and then to see firefighters are just on another level yeah they truly are what and to see them stacking up photo albums like that i was just gonna say that it's gut-wrenching it truly is and to think that's like all some people are gonna have left
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Barely. They found Rodney just chilling in his bedroom and took him into custody without incident. During their search of the house, though, they found a considerable amount of photography equipment and photographs, as well as a receipt for a storage locker in Seattle. Ooh. Yeah. Which I never knew that detail of this case, that there was a whole storage locker full of nefarious shit.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
I had no idea. They also found a cane-cut knife set, interestingly enough, but it seemed as though none of the knives were missing from the set, but still interesting. Yeah. Other items seized that day included a pair of handcuffs. This is disgusting. Eight issues of a magazine, which I don't know how it got into publication, but it's called Young and Naked Magazine. Are you fucking kidding me?
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Yeah. Get it together. Disgusting. Get it fucking together. They found a leather bullwhip and over 1,000 photos, negatives, and slides.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Mm-hmm. He was booked on suspicion of murder, though he claimed that on the afternoon that Robin went missing, he was at Knott's Berry Farm amusement park being interviewed for a photography job. Oh, you're at an amusement park? That's good. Isn't that interesting? That's disgusting.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Regardless of his supposed alibi, he was put into a Huntington Beach jail cell, and his bail was set at $250,000, a sum far beyond his mother's reach this time. Thank goodness.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Yeah, I'm glad you said it because I completely agree.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Well, and it's not like the police just came and said, oh, you know, he's a suspect. He's a suspect. He's a suspect. That happened. But also he was convicted multiple times. That's the thing. Horrible, horrible crimes.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
So a few days after his arrest, Alcala's sister came to visit him in the Huntington Beach jail. During their conversation, guards overheard Rodney and his sister talking about a storage unit in Seattle, and they heard him say to her, do me a favor, get the stuff out of there, get it cleared out. Holy shit. You didn't think anyone was listening to your conversation in prison, sir?
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
It's cool. The calls aren't wired or anything like that. Absolutely not. Not tapped. No. But intrigued at the thought of what Alcala could be hiding in his storage locker, detectives Ed McLaren and Craig Robinson got a warrant to search that unit, and they flew right over to Seattle. When they reached the storage shed, however, they found that it was locked with not one, but two padlocks.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Fortunately, they had brought along with them two keys discovered in a briefcase that was seized from Alcala's mother's house. And when they tried them in the locks, they worked. Oh, shit. Can you imagine how that must have felt? Because they probably had those two keys and were like, who knows what these actually go to.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
But we're going to find horrifying shit.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Yeah. Inside the storage unit, McLaren and Robinson discovered what appeared to be an assortment of personal belongings, including cold weather clothing, kitchenware, more than 1,700 photographs. Oh, God. A large number of photo slide carousels, including one marked, and this is awful, Tali VA Rape.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
I hope it was an awful death. I hope he felt every second of every horrific feeling one could possibly feel.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Yeah. And the simultaneous feeling of like a bunch of nails lifting his fingernails. Yeah. I hope. That's what I hope for him. I hope that. They also found another photo slide carousel that was marked Ode to New York by John Berger. So, boom, alias.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
That's the thing. They also found several pieces of jewelry, and among that jewelry, the detectives found a pair of gold earrings that matched those described by Robin Samsoe's mother, which she was wearing on the day she went missing.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
And he liked young women. Woman or girl. Yeah. He's disgusting. On July 26th, he appeared in municipal court where he was arraigned on charges of kidnapping, lewd or lascivious acts upon a child under 14, first degree murder and robbery. He pleaded not guilty to all charges and a preliminary hearing was set for early August.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Yeah, we're working on something right now. We just don't want to say anything before we get the, you know, we don't want to say anything too preemptively.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
At the same time, the judge ordered that Alcala would finally be held without bail.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Oh, thanks. Thanks, guys. Yeah. For finally doing that. Thanks. Thanks. While he sat in a jail cell awaiting trial, investigators started combing through the photos and negatives discovered in the storage unit, which must have been fucking awful.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
The compartmentalizing that must have to happen in your brain is just beyond. Like I feel like it's beyond most humans.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
I get it. Well, they see the same, obviously, like on a lesser, they see a lesser amount of it most times, but they see the things that these detectives see and have to go through, you know?
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
There's a lot in life that feels like it should be guaranteed, but it just isn't. Things like your friends being on their way when they text you LMW or getting out the same number of socks from the dryer that you put in. AT&T is introducing a new guarantee, the AT&T Guarantee, because there's a lot in life that's not guaranteed.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Well, the photos contained a large number of young women investigators had never seen before, who they believed that Alcala had been stalking throughout the years. So he was also a stalker, which is fucking terrifying. Which is the least shocking thing in the world. Truly. They also discovered a photograph that appeared to have been taken at Huntington Beach on the day that Robin went missing.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
So there went that alibi. Yep. Yeah. There that goes. So the image was actually published in papers across California to be like, hey, who is this woman? Do you have any information? Detectives were contacted by Lorraine Watson, who was the young woman in the photo, and she confirmed the day that the photo was taken, effectively undermining his claim that he was at a job interview that day.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
What a dumb shit, truly. What a dumb shit. The detective work there to be like, maybe we can track this girl down. That's the shit that blows my mind.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
It's awesome. Rodney Alcala's trial was delayed multiple times as the defense filed one motion after the other to get testimony and evidence suppressed, most of which were unsuccessful, luckily. And the trial finally got underway in February of 1980, with Deputy District Attorney Rich Farnell acting on behalf of the state and John Barnett working on behalf of Alcala.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
The state's case was pretty straightforward. Alcala had met Robin Samsoe on or near Huntington Beach on the afternoon that she went missing... and he had taken her up into the mountains, stopping at marker 11, where he sexually assaulted and murdered her.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
In support of that theory, they called several witnesses, including the two teenage girls that Alcala had approached with his camera earlier that day. Another young woman, Lori Wertz, also testified that Alcala had taken her photo on the beach that afternoon. So he was just... Yeah, he was just out there. Prowling on the beach, taking pictures of everybody he possibly could. Yeah. Oh, yes.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Oh, yes. Unfortunately, while she did appear in court to testify, her testimony was a major revelation to both the prosecution and defense, who were not expecting the story she told, because it was quite different than what they had both originally heard.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Initially, she had testified that she had seen Alcala and a young blonde girl headed into the woods on the night of June 21st, and that was her extent of involvement in the case. But since Alcala's arrest, she had become uncooperative with police and was very cagey about the testimony that she had given in previous hearings. Huh.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
At a hearing in February 1980, Alcala's defense attorney, John Barnett, pressed Crappa about the truthfulness of her statements, and that's when she started telling a very different story than anyone had heard.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
According to her, she had seen Alcala on the day of the murder, just like she had told investigators, but there was a great deal more to it that she hadn't said. It turned out that just a few days later, on June 25th, she returned to marker 11 where she had previously seen Alcala. She said she parked her car, but she left the engine running, and she walked a little way up the trail to investigate.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
She said she hadn't made it very far when she noticed a foul smell in the air, and a few feet away she saw various pieces of clothing, including that tennis shoe, a pair of shorts, and a t-shirt. And remember, they didn't find any clothing at the scene. Yeah. A few feet away from the clothing, she said she spotted a body. She said, quote, it was missing the hands and the feet.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
It was pretty cut up on the torso, arms and legs. It was bloated like an animal gets when it sets a while. She claimed she was horrified and she ran back to her car and then drove to her parents house where she said nothing about what she had found.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
A few days later, she was working on a spraying crew in that same area. Wait, so, babe, you just went back to work? You just went to work? It gets a lot worse.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Nothing to be proud of. What the fuck? So she goes back to work, and she's in that same area, and she and William Popke came upon a pile of bones. Believing them to be the remains of a deer or some kind of other animal, she said William actually picked up one of the bones and, quote, tossed it at Crappa as a joke, though she admitted she knew that they were not animal bones.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Later that night, she returned to the scene again. It was dark, but in the light of her flashlight that she brought along with her, she said she could see some of the girl's blonde hair and the pile of clothing still near the body. There were obviously signs of further decomposition, and she said the right arm appeared to be missing at that point.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Three days later, while working with the spraying crew, was when William Popke finally discovered the remains of Robin Samsoe.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Why would you lie about that? Why would you lie about that? But why did you lie in the first place? Because this story is way worse. But this story is so fucking bizarre.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
That you're not going to... Well, and also at that point, you're not going to believe anything they say because they've already lied so much.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
It obviously was gut-wrenching, but I think people really liked the...
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Like, let's pull you aside when this is all said and done.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
The new version of events was not only a stunning discovery to Elena, but also the prosecution and the defense and me as well. The prosecution and the defense had suspected that she was withholding something, but didn't expect that it was so significant. When asked why she hadn't said anything about any of this before, she said, from the very beginning, I was trying to find a way out.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
I did not want to testify. Blaming it on my imagination was easier to say than actually saying I believed it.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
You know this is a child. And you think you saw her. That's the other thing. You thought you saw her.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
That's the part that I'm like, okay, as soon as that happened, you should have called the police and been like, we thought this was animal bones, but I don't think it is. Can you come out here and check? That's the part where it would have been like... okay, you fucked up, but like you were scared. When it gets to the point where it's like, I saw something, I didn't say anything.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
And then I saw another thing and somebody threw something at me and I didn't say anything. And then I went back a third time and I still didn't say anything. And then I decided maybe I should say something.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
The only thing, the only thing that I can think of is that she thought that her imagination was playing tricks on her and she's like, is this a human? Is this a human? But it's like... It is, babe.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Her decision to reveal the truth was a major blow to the prosecution because it called into question the credibility of her testimony, which was the key to the prosecution's case. So everybody's stunned. Another important witness for the prosecution, Robert Dove, had similar credibility problems. He was an inmate at the Huntington Beach jail where Alcala was held pending trial.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
And he testified that during his time there, he overheard Alcala discussing Robin's murder and boasting about his chances of an acquittal. This inmate claimed he heard Alcala tell another inmate, no one's seen me take her, and added that he didn't stab her, but he, quote, slapped her unconscious. Jesus Christ. Which is just so brutal. Yeah.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
He also told the inmate they, quote, would never convict him without the, quote, film and the bike, and they would not find the bike. So that's interesting.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Although the credibility of those two witnesses, two key witnesses, was weakened under cross-examination, the prosecution was handed a major victory when the judge allowed Farrell Coll's previous arrest record and violent conduct to be brought to the attention of the jury. Thank goodness. That doesn't happen a lot.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
It's a slippery slope, you know. But in this one, it's like, yeah, come on. As a result, though, the entire courtroom was familiarized with the assault on Tali Shapiro in 1968, the kidnapping of Julie Johnson in 1975. If you don't remember, that's from part two where he had kidnapped that girl. She was on her way to, Julie Johnson was on her way to school and he forced her to smoke weed.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
And then the park ranger found them. And nobody believed that, nobody believed her.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
And of course, they were made aware of the recent sexual assault and kidnapping of Monique Hoyt, which he hadn't even faced yet. He was still he was out on bail for all that. Awesome. The criminal history established obviously a pattern of luring young girls into his car and then attacking them violently, which is precisely what the prosecutor Farnell argued had happened to Robin Samso.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
And it's also just facts. In his closing arguments, John Barnett flatly rejected the prosecution's theory and argued to the jury that Dana Krapa's dishonesty, quote, entirely discredits the prosecution's case. Which, not exactly.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
No. He said, though, if they couldn't trust the prosecution's key eyewitness, could they really be certain beyond a reasonable doubt that the rest of their theory was accurate? Yeah. He said, quote, set your emotions aside, set your feelings aside, decide the case on the facts.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
If we are to be a country of laws, you must acquit because the prosecutors have failed to prove their burden beyond a reasonable doubt. Like that's not actually up for you to decide. You, I mean, that is some, I know it's his job. It's some slimy shit. That's some slimy ass shit.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
You're defending somebody who was literally convicted. And has been caught many times.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
I don't like it in this case either. So deal with it. Yeah. After two months of testimony and evidence, the jury deliberated for nearly a day before returning with their verdict. Finding Rodney Alcala guilty on charges of kidnapping and first degree murder.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
On May 7th, he returned to court for the penalty phase of the trial, and that was when the jury was asked to determine whether aggravating circumstances were such that they warranted the death penalty. During this time, Farnell attempted to establish for the jury that Alcala had in fact killed before.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
He referred to the 1977 murder of Ellen Hover, where the judge sustained the defense's objections because there was unfortunately never sufficient evidence or a conviction for Ellen Hover's murder. Unfortunately. Which is awful. Well, we'll get there. Don't worry. Oh, good.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Even though Farnell wasn't able to connect Alcala to Hover's murder, the jury still returned a recommendation that Rodney Alcala be sentenced to death for the murder of Robin Samson. Damn.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
unfortunately not like right away yeah it usually takes a while i know when the recommendation was read robin's mother marion fraser shouted all right from her seat near the front of the courtroom and then she collapsed into the arms of a police officer next to her i would be the same way oh yeah absolutely the same way that's your baby that's her 12 year old baby who went to hang out with her friends and ride her bike around yep which she should be able to fucking do
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Not a doubt in my mind. I don't even have kids yet. Not a doubt in my mind. Judge Schwab set a date of June 20th for official sentencing. In between the recommendation phase and the final sentencing on June 20th, Alcala and his attorney, of course, petitioned the state Supreme Court for a new trial.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
They argued that the evidence in the case, primarily the jewelry and the photos seized from the storage locker, had been obtained illegally and should warrant a new trial. Shut the fuck up. But they weren't. They had search warrants. No. Shut up. The Supreme Court, though, rejected the petition entirely, and on June 20th, Rodney Alcala was formally sentenced to death. Bye.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
It turned out that Marianne Fraser's relief at Alcala's conviction was to be short-lived, which breaks your heart for her and all the other families. She just couldn't take a breath. This family and most of the families... Just got tormented. Tormented. Tormented for years. It ultimately took, I think, three trials.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
In 1984, Rodney Alcala appealed his conviction to the state Supreme Court again, this time arguing, among other things, that the prosecution had biased the jury against him when they disclosed his past criminal acts.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
But unfortunately, the court justices agreed. Wow. They agreed. In siding with the argument put forth by the defense, the justices overturned that original ruling and they granted Alcala a new trial. That's dumb as fuck. It is. It drives you insane. So the second trial held in the spring of 1986. So six years later.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
This family had six years of, I don't want to say peace because they lost their loved one, but they had six years of knowing that this man was behind bars and was going to die for what he did.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
And then boom, it's starting all over again. It was essentially a rerun of the first trial, but this time the prosecution had to leave out his past criminal history. In the end, he was still found guilty of kidnapping and murdering Robin Samsoe. Of course he was, because he fucking did it. Marian Fraser told reporters, I just thank God.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Maybe now my daughter can go to sleep for the first time in seven years. Maybe the rest of my family can go back to life. Ugh. During the penalty phase a month later, Alcala pleaded with the jury to spare him the death penalty. Oh, like your victims pleaded with you, probably? Yeah, exactly. You piece of shit?
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Saying that his record as a model prisoner was proof that, quote, I'm absolutely harmless. I'm not a threat. You're a child predator, dude.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
You're not a threat. Yeah, you're not a threat when you're in prison because there's no children there.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
But despite his pleas, the jury again recommended the death penalty for the murder of Robin Samsoe. Later, Marian Fraser hugged the jury foreman and told him, thank you, my daughter deserved this. which he absolutely did. In the years that followed, though, he continued to appeal his conviction.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
No. He just shouldn't have. No, not at all. And in 2001, a federal courts appeals judge overturned the conviction in the second trial on the grounds that Alcala had not been given the opportunity to present contradictory evidence during his trial. Get it together. It's also like, okay, how many times does he get to make this the perfect trial? Defense. You just keep getting to try again.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Like, that's not how this should work.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
He's sitting in prison. It's all he has to do. Because some people are sitting in prison and that's all that you will. Like, I want to sit here and be like, they shouldn't be able to do that. No, but it's true. But. Some people are innocent and they get proven guilty and they get that time to finally sit there and think like, oh, this is the one thing.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
So I can't even sit here and say it's a bad thing.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
But I feel like we're- This one guy shouldn't have been able to do this. We are growing and we are not making as many blanket statements. You just got to catch yourself when you make- Yeah, catch yourself before you wreck yourself.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Exactly. I was about to, and then I was like, no, no, no, girl, don't do that. Yeah, this- Specific man. He should not have had the time. Should not have been allowed to do anything. No. No, nothing. Nothing. But this decision meant that he could be tried a third time for the murder of Robin Samso, her poor family. We gotta find a better way. We do.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Deputy Attorney General Adrian Denault told reporters, we are incredibly disappointed. We think the court is wrong and that justice has not been served in this case. Because this family is just getting bombarded
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Years and years after they think they finally have peace, which the second time around, I'm sure that family, Robin Samso's family was like, should we even rest or is this going to happen again? That we're going to have to go through this all again. And then boom, they had to go through it all again. Oh, it's awful.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Well, the district attorney's office may have been frustrated by the court's decision by that time. Remember, it is now 2001. Oh, yeah. Major. Major. Major advances in science and technology had allowed... And babe, they have some DNA. That's the thing, had allowed for the testing of DNA and those blood samples that I mentioned. Open it up, babe.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Now they could pinpoint that with surprising accuracy. And in 2003, a recently collected sample of Alcala's saliva was matched to samples taken from Jill Barcombe, Georgia Wickstead, Charlotte Lamb...
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
That meant that in addition to retrying Alcala for Robin Samsoe's murder, the district attorney could also now prosecute him for those additional murders.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
You thought. Fucking dumbass. In the words of Balin, you're done. You're done. This time around, the prosecution had more than enough evidence to convince the jury, including the DNA evidence, bite mark impressions taken from the victims. But unfortunately, the family's present at trial would have to endure Rodney Alcala serving as his own fucking attorney this time. Come on.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Also, some of the things that he was allowed to do while representing himself will boggle your goddamn mind.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
The word insurmountable is just popping up in my life a lot lately. And I just love it. I love words. I know, I do too. Like words are great. I get it.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
safeguards on those for sure and unfortunately again it's like a case by case basis because the judge gets to decide what happens in this case I'm like you're like what are you doing I'm like tap tap is this thing on hello so on March 9th 2010 it took an Orange County jury less than an hour to find Rodney Alcala guilty on all five counts
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
After the verdict was read, one juror told a reporter, he's a monster. He's not a human being. 100% true. Hear, hear to that, my friend. Before the jury announced their sentencing recommendation, though, Alcala again asked that he be spared the death penalty and actually at this point wanted to be granted clemency.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
You could. You could, bro. He said, let me put the death penalty in perspective for you. If you desire to join in the killing of a human being, you and the families of all the victims will have to wait at least 15 to 20 years while the case slowly turns through the appellate process.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
We'll wait to see you die. With bated breath. Yeah. He also, at this point, was allowed to play Arlo Guthrie's Alice's Restaurant, specifically the verse where he sings, I want to kill, I want to kill. I want to see blood and gore and guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean, kill, kill, kill, kill.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
That's the thing. And he was saying, if you're going to inflict the death penalty on me, you're the same as I am. Wow. So let me play this song to show you who you guys are and apparently who I am.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
And also, are you not just proving the prosecution's case? You literally just called yourself a killer. Yeah. You're saying you're no better than I am. Yeah. So you're saying you're a killer. So you're saying. Hello? You're saying it's true. Hello? Yeah. He was just in absolute terror to the very last second.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Well, you're an author, so it doesn't. But I just really like words. No, I do too. Certain words. I also get an email every day with a word of the day. Oh, that's fun. If you'd like me to tell you about it later, I got you. Let me just tell you about it right now. Tell me about it now. Maybe somebody else listening wants to get this email that's word of the day.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
But luckily, the jury wasted no time recommending to the judge that, hey, they still felt like he should be sentenced to death. And during a separate penalty phase. Please don't ask us again. Yeah, like we're done here. During a separate penalty phase, Tali Shapiro was actually able to speak about her harrowing experience. Holy shit. As an eight-year-old girl attacked by this monster.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Later, she told 48 Hours, I'm one of Rodney Alcala's first and one of his only living victims. It should have stopped with me. Why in the world are there so many other victims when it was a known fact what he did to me? Yes, totally. The fact that she was able to speak on this makes me so happy that her voice was heard. But it's so true.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Why the fuck, when they knew what he did to her at eight years old, in the morning, in her own fucking apartment complex... Oh, it's shameful. Why?
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Could have been worse. She could be dead. She could be dead. She would be dead. She would have been. Absolutely. She would be dead without him. And he would have stayed in California and done the same thing more boldly. So Rodney Alcala was finally being held accountable for his horrific crimes committed decades earlier.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
And it turned out that it wasn't just prosecutors in California who wanted justice for his victims. No, of course not. In January 2011, a grand jury in Manhattan indicted Alcala for the 1971 murder of Cornelia Michael Crilly. Hell yeah. And the 1977 murder of Ellen Hover. Remember, Cornelia Michael Crilly, she was moving. Yes. And he broke into her.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
The AT&T guarantee means connectivity you can depend on, deals you want, and service you deserve, or they'll make it right. Visit att.com slash guarantee to learn more. AT&T connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com slash guarantee for details. Have you ever grown tired of searching for your favorite movies and TV shows across numerous streaming accounts?
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
got into her apartment under the guise of helping her yeah and then oh my god asshole ellen's cousin sheila said for the longest time it was for it was a foregone conclusion that he would never be charged for her murder this is a terrific surprise yeah you want to see him go down for it absolutely on december 14th 2012 he appeared in a new york courtroom where he pleaded guilty to both murders though he offered no details about either crime he just knew that they had the dna to
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
At the time, investigators made public a large number of the photos discovered in Alcala's storage unit in Seattle, hoping that they'd be able to identify women in the photos.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
It was like a big deal. Yeah. In response, many women came forward to identify themselves and told police, quote, a photographer named John Berger had taken their picture in New York in the 1970s.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Just to know you got away. And you would spend so much time, like if not the rest of your life, just thinking, what was it? Yeah. What was it that I got? Why did I get away? Why did he take a picture of me and then move on to the next girl and do what he did to her? Holy shit. Like that would plague you, I think. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Now, while this helped to identify many of the women in the pictures, a significant number of these women unfortunately remain unidentified. Which makes me nervous. Of course it does. Because I'm like, where are these women? Yeah, I think, unfortunately, we'll never know where some of these women are. But hopefully... Yeah, hopefully we will. Hopefully we will.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Four years later, in 2016, a prosecutor in Wyoming had charged Alcala with the murder of 28-year-old Christine Thornton, who disappeared in 1978, and her body was discovered in 1982. She was six months pregnant at the time of her disappearance. Holy shit. At the time, he was in very poor health. Who gives a fuck? But the prosecutor declined to extradite him to face charges.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
He got to live a whole fucking life. That upsets me. Upon hearing of Alcala's death, though, Tali Shapiro, who was then 61 years old, told a reporter, the planet is a better place without him. That's for sure. Yes. Now, at the time of his death, though, he was still suspected of murder by investigators in Los Angeles, Seattle, Arizona, New Hampshire, and Marin County, California.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Oh, I'm sure there will be more things that come out. And so many more cases, I think, will be connected to him because he left DNA at so many of these cases. Yeah, he did. So there's definitely hope that some people will finally have answers to their loved one's murders. Yeah. What a fucking monster. He is one of the worst people that we've ever talked about.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
We talk about horrible, horrible, horrible people, and he is up there with the worst of them.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
I had absolutely no idea. I really didn't. Going into the details, reading some of them... Oh my God. Yeah. Oh my God. Like, holy shit. Yeah. So I think maybe for our next case, we'll do something a little fluffy, a little light. And if you need a, you know, palate cleanser after this, which I'm sure you do, go listen to the rewatcher.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
And if you don't watch Buffy or you're not into that, we also have Scream with Caleb where we cover horror movies. Or you can listen to both and be into all of it. Scream is also a place where we end up laughing so hard we cry every single episode. Somebody said that they ran out of morbid episodes and went to Scream and they were like, I did not think it was going to be this funny.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
There have been times where I've had to run out of the room because I'm going to pee my pants. Literally. Yeah. Definitely, if you need a little lighter stuff, those are the way to go. Actually, a perfect palate cleanser for you guys. Our next episode, we're going to be talking to the two directors of this new docuseries on Netflix. I think it dropped December 11th. It's Kings of Tupelo.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
you need to dedicate at least four hours of your life to watching this. It is the zaniest docuseries you will ever see. And we're so stoked to talk to them. That show was wild and I can't wait. We're going to have so much fun. So look out for that. Definitely try to check out the doc before the episode drops because I, you know, I'm sure there's going to be some spoilers. So yeah.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
And like we were saying at the top of the show, we want to cover some more survivor cases, some more strange history coming up. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Whatever your fancy is, we can help you. we're here here we are i don't know i gotta go uh so with that being said we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird but definitely not as weird as rodney alcala because wow i need to go scrub my brain with a toilet brush be cool to each other a toilet brush with leech on it Thank you.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
And then you feel like Ty and you just get to drop a new word. Yes. I love it. Um, if you can't find me on Instagram right now, I ran for the hills. I am not on Instagram anymore. Just really unplug. I don't know. You know, I might go back. I might go back. I might go back. I don't know where I just went with that. I might go back at some point, but it just was, it didn't feel great.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
And, um, I was following people that I didn't make the choice to follow.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
And speaking of things that make us happy, back to words. Hell yeah. Today's word of the day is, I don't know how to pronounce it. I haven't listened, but it's, oh, it's bringing me to another voice. Hello. It is. Sedulous. And that means showing dedication and diligence. It's an adjective. Is it sedulous or sedulous? It's sedulous.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Let's find the great thing. I love it. Yeah. So, yeah, that was a lot of, you know, good stuff. Yeah. And here's a lot of bad stuff. I'm sorry. We're on part three. So the good news is this is the end. We get to see Rodney peace the fuck out, go to jail, and then eventually die, which is awesome. He's going to shuffle right off this mortal coil. Get the fuck off this coil, Rodney.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Bye. Bye. So quick recap of part two for you. Rodney ended up serving less than three years for the attack on Tali Shapiro, which is fucking insane. And he was back prowling on the streets in no time. Shameful. Zero regard for being on parole. He had no regard for being on parole and parole had no regard that he was on parole.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
There was just no regard to be found.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
In between brutal attacks and murders, he made his appearance on The Dating Game, which we've talked about a couple times. Horrifying. You know, he left his lasting impression on Cheryl Bradshaw there and even another contestant, one of the other bachelors.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
And finally, he was apprehended yet again where he actually confessed to assaulting and raping a 15-year-old, Monique Hoyt, who bravely escaped and told police everything that happened to her. Yet for some reason, he was released on a ridiculous $10,000 bail instead of the prosecutor's $50,000 request.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
It's so frustrating to have all your favorite shows live across multiple logins and apps. I'm like trying to watch one show. I'm like, wait, what's my login here? On Prime Video, though, you can add over 100 subscriptions like Max, Apple TV+, and Paramount+, all in one app. Experience the convenience of having your favorite subscriptions in your Prime Video account with one login and one password.
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Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
So his mother posted that bail, and again, I feel like I've said this 400 times throughout this series, Rodney was back out on the streets. Yep. Insane.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
No regards. So a few weeks later, after he posted bail and was back home with mom, he gave his notice to the LA Times where he was working, remember?
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
So effective May 12th, he would be unemployed. And he told his employer that he wanted to focus on his photography. And he was actually thinking of moving up north. Yeah, you know, he's an artist. Yeah, an artist. It's not that he's, you know, facing serious jail time or anything like that. No, just artists.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
While Rodney was finishing out his last days at the Times, 21-year-old Jill Parenteau was settling into her new apartment in Burbank. She's super excited just to start her new independent life. A few months earlier, she had started a job as a computer key punch operator. She was making good money. She had everything going for her.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
She was just really enjoying, like I said, being out on her own, her independence. Yeah. On June 13th, Jill's sister Dee Dee called to find out what Jill was doing that night, if she wanted to hang out or something. But Jill said that she had a date to go to a Dodgers game with Dan Brady. And Dan Brady was somebody that she had known since high school, so this wasn't crazy.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
But the next morning, Jill's friend Kathy waited by the phone to hear about the date. She was anxious to hear how everything went. They called each other to check in before work almost every single day, but Jill never called, so Kathy thought it was a little bit weird, but she assumed, you know, maybe Jill just went into work earlier that morning, and I'll check in with her later.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
But hours later, nobody had heard from Jill, which was very out of character, and her friends and family were starting to get pretty concerned. So not content to just sit around and wait to hear something, her friend Janet Jordan went straight to Jill's apartment to check on her. Poor Janet.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Poor Janet. She had barely entered the apartment and made her way up to Jill's bedroom when she saw Jill's body on the floor. She was lying face up. She was nude and she had been beaten severely. Janet just ran out of there and ran to the closest phone to call the police.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Burbank detective Gordon Bowers was the first to arrive to the apartment, and he was met by Janet, who was so upset that she could barely even speak.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Yeah. So she was so upset she could barely talk. Additional officers arrived a few minutes later. And the first thing they noticed was that, and this is so fucking terrifying and creepy, the screen on the window facing the courtyard at her apartment complex had been cut vertically and horizontally, making a large hole so that like a person could fit through.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Could literally just like open it up, spread it aside and just get right in. And then they also noticed that the light bulb in the stairwell leading to Jill's door had been unscrewed.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Literally the strangers type shit. Inside the apartment, nothing appeared to be out of the ordinary. Obviously, aside from what, you know, Jill being dead in the apartment. Her purse lay on the table next to her Dodgers ticket stub and program. And nothing seemed to be missing, though. The medical examiner confirmed the obvious. Jill had been violently sexually assaulted. She was beaten.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
She was strangled. There was severe trauma to her nose, cheeks, her teeth, and even her head. And there were visible ligature marks around her neck, which were caused by the cord from an electric blanket that had been twisted around her throat. He is so fucking, like, brutal.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
There's a hundred more premium and specialty subscriptions to unlock a world of movies, TV, and sports all in one app. Super duper easy to not have to log in to like 45 different streaming services. Check out subscriptions on Prime Video. Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And this is Morbid. This is morbid. I kind of said my name weird. I was like, Ash.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Like, it's the beating. And a lot of times it doesn't even seem like he came with something to strangle people with. He just finds something nearby. Because a lot of times it's like, you know, their tights that they were wearing. And in this case, it's like an electrical cord blanket. She probably just had, you know, a heated blanket laying around. And that's what he uses. Yeah. Just on the fly.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
He just incapacitates somebody enough to go find something in their own house, which is even like another level of... Yeah. I don't even know what the word is.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
Now, nearly everything in the bedroom from the walls to the clothing scattered around the floor was splattered with blood everywhere. Jesus. In the autopsy report, the medical examiner noted significant pulling or striking blunt traumas to the head by an object broader than a hammer. Holy shit. So that caused extensive scalp hemorrhages.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
There were also, quote, deep scratches around both breasts, tooth marks and puncture wounds below the left nipple and cuts on the left side of the left breast.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
He's rabid. Yeah. He doesn't even seem like a human. No. The ultimate cause of death was the ligature strangulation. So you imagine that, and I hate to even like...
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
you know go further into this but you imagine he is beating his victims viciously yeah he's attacking them with his teeth with his hands with some object bigger than a hammer and the ultimate cause of death is strangulation so they're alive while he's inflicting all that pain and just trauma onto them yeah it's awful The killer had also left fluids on and inside the body.
Morbid
Episode 643: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 3)
And there was additional blood evidence found on the windowsill, leading investigators to believe that actually the killer had cut himself when he broke into the apartment. So at least that was good. Yeah. They had bad evidence. Detectives in L.A. had barely started processing the evidence at this scene when on June 20th, a call came in to the Huntington Beach Police Department.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
Hey weirdos, before we unleash today's macabre mystery, we were wondering, have you ever heard of Wondery Plus? It's like a secret passage to an ad-free lair with early access to episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
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Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
It was founded on this idea that if we stick to good habits, making a change feels easier and less pressurized. Fume has lots of delicious flavors to choose from, like crisp mint, orange vanilla—yum— and new peach blush. Fume has already helped over 400,000 people take steps toward better habits, and now, honey, it's your turn.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
To kick off the new year, use our code MORBID to get a free gift with your Journey Pack. Head to tryfume.com. That's tryfume.com. Use code MORBID to claim this limited-time offer today.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
I mean, just based off stats alone. Yeah. Listen to me. Look at that. Number two. Look at those stats. Oklahoma, go fuck yourselves. Go fuck yourselves. Look at me, talking trash. Talking trash about sports.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
Like, okay. But you don't need to teach your little tiny kids how unsafe and unhappy the world is.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
I don't understand what's blasphemous about that. Especially if he's trying to understand. It's not that he's questioning it to be a dick. He's just like, I'm trying to get this.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
And he doesn't think anybody likes him. Yeah. Even though he's, like, having positive experiences.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
The crowd at this one in particular, honey.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
Well, it's probably hard, too, because he's questioning his religious beliefs.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
Especially at any age, but especially at such a young age.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
Because he just wasn't taught differently.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
Can you enter me into that? Yeah, so you can high five the players. I want to high five the players. Is it for children only? Or is it for new sports fans? It's for children only. I could just crouch. Just crouch down. I'm like, good luck guys. Yay. They're like, what the fuck is that woman doing? You're like, go sports. What a visual, that page. I am visualizing it right now.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
Because you can love somebody but not be in love with them.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
Like he was clearly confused about his feelings.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
And especially somebody already struggling with their emotional stability. Yeah. That's not a great time to join the military.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
I just got banned from every Celtics event for the rest of the season. You just got put on a list. They were like, no. No, bitch. No, I don't want to do that. But I do want to go back.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
That's not the stance you should take on that matter.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
It's fucked up that that happened to her and that her own mom was like, you just want to get Herbert in trouble. You're being spiteful.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
Oh, that's so fucking creepy. Isn't that like beyond chilling? That's chilling, yes. Oh, what the fuck? And as his sister, first of all, his sister was probably losing her mind. And then the brother-in-law there is probably like, what the fuck?
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
He's mentally ill and he needs help. Sounds like she's also mentally ill.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
You only have how many more lives? I have no idea where I started. You're bigger than a cat. I am. It's so funny. The different places that we were about to go that you were like, what else do we have? And you went into ghost and I was about to say, oh, star is coming up. So there's that. We are different people. Equally as important.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
Happy Ostara. Go paint some eggs. Yeah. Put some rabbits out. Yeah. Fake ones, duh. Fake ones.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
i don't know you don't know your fucking life we really don't and you know you know whose life i really don't know and confirm who's herbert mullins okay so his life is lawless here's the thing i genuinely don't know his life i can recognize the name you genuinely don't know his life i know the name and i know that i've heard probably this case before but i cannot
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
He was, like, one of our earliest episodes. I think he's, like, number three.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
Oh, my God. Holy shit. Gruesome. Like, so brutal. And didn't find any quote-unquote evidence of pollution, but still felt like it was fine.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
He's just out here doing his job, serving the Lord.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
Oh, my God. I hate when things, like when you hear something like that.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
For once, I've turned Elena onto the show and Mikey as well. And I hold the power because I'm caught up and they're not. It's true. But we're coming up.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
That's so sad, because the police thought she was running away.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
Yeah, this is scary. And it's also just really sad that this all could have been avoided had he been properly medicated.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
It's like we were saying, it's so sad when somebody's not supposed to be there. It's like if she was just running late, she shouldn't have even been there.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
it's awful well we'll hear more of the awful in part two yeah and we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird you know not to keep it this weird bye Thank you.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And this right here that you're listening to in your car, in your house. What'd you say?
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
At this moment. Is morbid. I thought you said at a sporting event. At a sporting event. I said, why is somebody listening to Mormon at a sporting event? You don't know. Speaking of sporting events, Elena took me to my first Celtics game.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
I had so much fun. It is. I love the Celtics. I had a real go sports moment. Yeah, you did.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
It reminds you of the Son of Sam case where girls were going out and dyeing their hair.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
You were jumping up and yelling about fouls by the end of it. You were bullshit. bullshit i was so excited for you i was like look at her she's she's into it yeah it was fun it's true i used to like going weirdly i never went to the basketball games in high school because i like didn't give a shit but in middle school i loved it That's amazing. In middle school.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
So he sounded like he was like a pretty all right dad.
Morbid
Episode 660: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 1)
In every great true crime story, there's always a turning point, the moment when somebody decides to change course, usually. Well, here's your chance for a turning point of your own. Meet Fume, the flavored air device designed to help you ditch the bad habits and feel good about what you're reaching for.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Everyone around us hates it. My daughter would not speak to us. She would not. And I was like, you love us as like who we are.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
You look like you stay causing issues. I remain... What'd you say?
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
You just look chill. I mean, you're pretty chill. And with a widow's peak. I drew this on. A drawn-on widow's peak. The wig didn't come with one. I said, oh, wait, the missing piece. We need a widow's peak. I have a gossed shirt. A gossed shirt.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
And it's pink. Pink. So I had a little bit of ash. A little sparkle of ash.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Blink, blink. Hey, perfect job. Thank you. Back. What? What? Excuse me, what would you say? What the fuck? That's what you would say.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Hey, hey. We found a foot. We found a foot. Imagine. And you got a buzz on and somebody yells to you that they found a foot. How do you move past that?
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
do you believe in life after lice i need to just move it into a thing i can see we'll just keep i believe that lice is in your hair i really don't think you're strong enough oh lice and i'm a hairdresser so i know about lice
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
Don't reveal. Don't let them know. Oh, okay. Oh, the hierography is hierography. We do a little one. Just a little one.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
It's more dramatic. No, it's not. I'm bringing it down a little bit.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
I'm literally crying. What other things do you say? That's about it. You covered it. Leave it. That's it. I'm sorry. I'm literally crying. What other things do you say? Fuck you. That's about it. I think you covered it. That ran the gamut. Wait, wait, wait. Tobias, come on the show. Oh, that too. I literally have tears in my eyes.
Morbid
Episode 633: Listener Tales 93
There are Bogans. That's why I thought you were talking about Bogans. I like the Bogans. The Bogans. The Bogans.
Morbid
Episode 659: The Unsolved Murder of Kristin O’Connell
Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And this is Morbid in the Morning.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
And it's one of the funniest skits, like a running skit that they have called The Californians.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Hey weirdos, I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid. It's morbid. This is morbid. It's kind of like an update on a case that's coming a little late. Yeah. Because we don't know when anything comes out. Yep, you know that. For one. And then two, this has a lot of, it has its own cases associated with it.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Now, descriptions of an elderly Guy Moldavin really didn't match those of a man capable of committing a brutal rape, murder, and dismemberment. Yeah. One friend told The Independent in 2023, he was great. I really loved him. I mean, he was terrific, and I was very close to him.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
But the more investigators learned about Muldaven's past, the more plausible it seemed that, yeah, he would kill his wife. Absolutely. He wasn't so terrific. And also, it may not have been the first time he did it.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Also, my goodness. That he can have somebody who is actually close to him after this be like, no, he was a great guy. Like, I loved him.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
It's like, what the fuck? And it shows you how he was able to compartmentalize pieces of himself. Which is so common in these kinds of people. Exactly. And you can see it throughout his life. This is how he's a very big manipulator. He's a good charmer. He's a good con man. He can con anyone.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
You have to be able to turn it on. Now, Guy Rockwell Moldavin was born in Santa Fe, New Mexico on October 26, 1923. I think that makes him a Libra. Oh, really? I'll check. Uh-oh.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
There you go. Like, he was like, we do not claim him as Libras. No. He was given up for adoption at birth, and he was quickly adopted by Abe and Sylvia Moldavin, and he was raised on a little cattle ranch in Tiberia, New Mexico, along with his brother Michael, who was six years older.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Not a lot is known about his early life, but according to a press report, he was, quote, schooled in Switzerland, New York, and Connecticut and was tutored privately.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
He was doing okay. In his younger years, it looked like the family traveled extensively through Cuba, Germany, Italy, France. Damn. Court documents show that in addition to the ranch in New Mexico, the family, quote, bought land and properties and towns in the late 1940s and mid-1950s. So they had houses and places to live in a lot of places. They were flushed with cash.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
In 1942, Moldavin moved to New York and he decided to change his name. He changed his name to Guy Raoul Rockwell. Huh. Yeah. And took a job as a professor at the Academy of Dramatic Arts. Which I did not see coming. I did not see coming either. It was there that he met and soon married his first wife, Joellen Loop. Oh, that's a cute name, Joellen. I know, an adorable name.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
There you go. It is in California where many people believe his criminal career began. Uh-oh. And it began in a really scary way. It began with the murder of a young couple on a beach in Eureka.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Now, on the evening of June 17th, 1950, 28-year-old Henry Baird, a delivery driver for a local bakery, showed up at the Sweet Shop, which was a local Fortuna diner, to meet his girlfriend, Barbara Kelly, for a date. The couple went to a movie, and after they went out to Table Bluff, which is a popular lover's lane overlooking the water. Oh, I love a lover's lane moment.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
You know, everything seemed to have gone, you know, fine, smoothly.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
But the following morning, a local fisherman and his son, getting ready to go out on their boat for the day, discovered the body of Henry Baird lying on the beach, nude, except for shoes and socks.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
He was laying face down and had what appeared to be a bullet hole in the back of his head. Jeez. His clothes were in a pile not far from his body, and alongside his clothes were several pieces of women's clothing. But Barbara Kelly was nowhere to be found.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Yeah. Right. Okay. Now, the car was found a few yards from his body, both doors ajar, and the .22 caliber pistol that he was known to keep in his glove compartment was missing.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
So this is like a whole thing. This is a very late discussion, again, of the Lady in the Dunes case and the update. Yes.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
As far as investigators could tell, there was really no sign of a struggle where he was found. And a $20 bill was found in Baird's wallet among the clothes, indicating that robbery was probably not the motive here. And his body was taken to a mortuary in Fortuna, where the deputy coroner, Dr. Gavin Goebel, performed an autopsy.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
According to Goebel, he found, quote, several pieces of a copper-jacketed .22 caliber bullet in Henry's brain, and he expected his death was, quote, instantaneous.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Now, according to Goebel, the bullet entered the back of Henry's skull and exited the front right side of his head. While the bullet was clearly the cause of death, he also noted that Henry's skull seemed, quote, to be unusually crushed for so light a bullet as a .22 caliber. And the coroner suspected that maybe he had also been struck in the head.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Now, the murder of Henry Baird was the most obvious crime for investigators, but it was followed very closely by the question on everyone's mind, which was, where the fuck is Barbara Kelly? According to Barbara's parents, Henry and Barbara had been dating for a little over two months, and despite their difference in ages, there was nothing concerning about their relationship to anyone.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Okay, well, that's good. On the night of the murder, Barbara had left a quickly scribbled note for her parents telling them she was planning to spend, quote, Saturday night with a girlfriend in Eureka. She was a little fibby fib. You don't fib. And that was the last they'd heard from her, which is very sad. After clearing the scene on the beach, investigators started talking with the press.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
One deputy told a reporter of the motive, it could be anything. Maybe she ran away. Maybe she and he made a suicide pact. We're still in the dark. I feel like in the 50s, they love to just be like, I bet it's a suicide pact. I feel like that was like a thing. Like back then, I feel like it was like, maybe they did this. I bet they decided to have a suicide pact together. It was like, why?
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
And also like, why would she then run off to do it elsewhere?
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Like, I don't get it. For qual? I don't get it at all. Now, within a few days, the sheriff's office had put together their initial theory that the couple had indeed made a suicide pact and that Barbara had shot Henry in the head, then removed her clothing and walked into the ocean to drown.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Please sit down, investigators in the 1950 case of this, and tell me where the fuck you came to that theory. That's a leap. Talk about a leap. That's a leap and a jog and a run around the corner. That's a triathlon. That's a marathon. Yeah, that's something. Now, operating on that...
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
We're going to talk about the suspected crimes of Guy Moldavin.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Searches for Barbara were launched from the air, on the beach, and even in the ocean. Wow. But when they failed to find literally any evidence to support their belief, investigators were forced to rethink that theory. It's like, also, what if she was kidnapped, y'all? That's the thing, and you're thinking she shot him in the head and then tried to walk into the ocean?
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Like, weird. Yeah. But okay. Sheriff Charles Rabb told a reporter, we have no idea what happened. that you don't say. You know, I'd rather you say that. We have no idea. And then he said, there is no indication of a third party involved, but we are investigating that and every other possibility. There's no indication of anything. That's the thing.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Like you're making it seem like only the two of them have to be involved in this when you say something like that. Right. Just like choose your words better when you're explaining this. Say like, we don't know what's going on. This could be anything. We will update you when we know it. Literally. Keep it short and sweet. We don't think another person was.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
It's like, no, there's no indication that anything happened here except for people died and someone's missing. Right. Yeah, keep it simple. So those possibilities included Barbara having been killed at the scene and dumped elsewhere, and that the couple could have been attacked by a patient who'd recently escaped from the Napa State Hospital and was seen in Eureka, which is chilling.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Now, within a week of the murder, the sheriff's office had called in detectives from the State Department of Justice to help them in the investigation, and they had largely changed their theory. Now, the sheriff's office was, quote, working on the theory that the couple were followed to the beach. Baird was slugged and shot to death by an intruder, and Miss Kelly was kidnapped or perhaps killed.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
I'm like, that's what I would have gone with at first. Versus suicide pact. Yeah. In the meantime, the residents of Fortuna started pitching in to offer a reward for information leading to an arrest. Okay. But leads and information were not a-coming. They were really scarce.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
While state detectives began expanding the search efforts, lab results and analysis of Baird's body and the bullet evidence from the state lab finally came back. Okay. Initially, the coroner's office had stated that Baird had been struck in the back of the head and shot with his, likely his own .22 caliber weapon. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
But according to the state's authorities, the bullet was not a .22, but was, quote, of the explosive type, and its caliber could not be determined exactly.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
The exploding bullet. So it's like there's certain bullets that when they enter, they just shatter and will cause like immense damage. And that's possibly why that they saw more damage than usual. That's what accounted for the severity of the entrance wound at the back of the head. So probably didn't get hit in the head. It was just the bullet.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Oh, man. The only lead they had, which officers discounted as a, quote, crackpot theory, was a letter mailed to the sheriff's office from an Oakland, California address. The writer claimed to be the killer and said he'd committed the murder out of jealousy. But investigators had failed to locate the writer and they just wrote it off as a prank. They just didn't find him, so they were like, blah.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
And it's knocking out the Wi-Fi every now and then.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
We can't find him, so he must be a jokester. Yeah. Even Blanche was like, fuck that. Yeah, Blanche was like, yeah. I was like, you good, girl?
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
In the winter of 1963, more than a decade after the murder of Henry Baird and the disappearance of Barbara Kelly, Gail Patrick Irish, an inmate at the Atascadero, I almost couldn't say that, state hospital, confessed to three murders, including the deaths of Henry Baird and Barbara Kelly. Okay.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Now, Irish, who was serving a sentence for, quote, sex perversion, claimed he was prowling around the beach when he came across them in their car. He said he forced them to strip, shot and killed Baird, and took Miss Kelly to a logging site about 20 miles north of Eureka. Once they reached the remote area, he claimed he sexually assaulted and murdered Barbara. Okay. Which sounds fucking terrible.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Yup. The detectives from the State Department of Justice, he had just enough details of the case to satisfy their belief that he was at least possibly responsible.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Also, he claimed to have committed a similar crime around in Yuba County in 1957. In that instance, against a 13-year-old girl. Ugh. As evidence of his sincerity, Irish offered to lead investigators to the bodies. So they received approval to take him from the hospital to the sites in Northern California where he said he had left his then 13-year-old victim.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Now, unfortunately, once they arrived at the supposed burial site, Irish failed twice to lead them to the body and indicated he might not be able to remember. Oh, that's good. Humboldt County Sheriff Edward Hurlburt told the press, though, What makes you feel that way? I don't know. I feel like it would have been when he said he wasn't going to lead you to the body.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
That would have probably changed my view on that. But me, I'm not a sheriff. Call me crazy. Who am I to say? That's the thing. A few days later, investigators arrived at Table Bluff with Irish, who claimed he would trace the route from the beach to the logging site. I think he just doesn't want to be in his cell today. Exactly. He wants some attention. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
This is where he claimed to have left Barbara Kelly's body. But after nearly a week of searching, Irish had still yet to identify the site where he'd left Kelly's body.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Although Irish had directed investigators to a logging camp approximately 20 miles from the beach, when they arrived there, they found that it was totally wildly overgrown, which he insisted made it difficult for him to recall accurately. Oh, okay. Sorry about that.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Now facing criticism over the increasing likelihood that they had fallen for a dumb lie, the sheriff's office recommended that Irish be subjected to a polygraph examination to prove he was telling the truth. Also to prove that they were not falling for something. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
No, you're not. So we're going to talk about this. Let's go back to the original Lady in the Dunes case first. Okay. So when a girl walking on a P-town, that's Provincetown. I'm going to call it P-town, though, because that's what I know it as. When a girl walking on a P-town Massachusetts beach discovered the decomposing body of a young woman in the summer of 1974.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
But when he returned to the hospital after failing to find either body, doctors at Atascadero explained to investigators that he was, quote, "...too unstable to be a fit subject for a lie detector test to be valid." Awesome. Yeah. Love to hear it.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
For months, the sheriff's office remained absolutely committed to believing Irish's story and even insisted they were going to search the entire area for Barbara Kelly's remains when the weather improved. Over time, though, it became very clear that there was nobody at the logging site and the case went cold again.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
All this time, yeah. Yeah. Although it would not be widely known for several decades, Gail Patrick Irish wasn't the only suspect in the Baird-Kelly case. In fact, many investigators believe that Guy Moldavin made a far more likely suspect. I was waiting. At the time of the murder, Moldavin and his wife were living in Fortuna, California, the same small town where the victims lived. Imagine that.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
More importantly, however, Moldavin's in-laws owned a sweet shop. Stop it. The restaurant where Barbara Kelly worked as a waitress and a restaurant on Baird's, Henry Baird's, regular delivery route. Stop. Guy Moldavin, huh, happened to work there as a short order cook sometimes to make additional money. No.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Since they hadn't announced their plans that evening to anyone, Barbara and Henry, investigators had initially thought, assumed basically, that they had been attacked by a stranger.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
But it was equally possible that either Henry or Barbara mentioned their plan to go to Table Bluff to Moldavin or one of the other co-workers shortly before leaving the diner that afternoon. Right. Whatever the case, investigators strongly suspected Moldavin of being involved in the murder and in Barbara's disappearance.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
But without Kelly's body or any other evidence to tie him to the crime, they had no cause to arrest him.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
I know it kills me. That's devastating. Now, not long after the discovery of Henry Baird's body, Guy and Joellen, strangely, relocated to Seattle, Washington.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
It began as an investigation into what would definitely become one of the most notorious and well-known cold cases in Massachusetts history, for sure.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Now, where Guy, and when they went to Seattle, Washington, he found work as a DJ again. And that was before he opened a shop, which I hate to say this is a pretty good idea. It's a nocturnal antique shop. No, that actually is a really good idea. I was like, fuck you for having a good idea.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
He probably did. He didn't come up with that himself. Nah. And this operated from 6 p.m. to midnight. I love that. Kind of a cool idea. I love that a lot. Yeah. But Guy and Joellen's marriage lasted a few more years. They had a daughter together.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Until one day in early 1956, in front of customers in the store, Guy announced he no longer wanted to be married to Joellen and told her to pack her things and leave. Sounds abrupt. In fact, one witness told police, it was the cruelest thing I ever saw. Oh. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Joellen, good for her, filed for divorce and was awarded sole custody of their daughter and left the fuck out of Seattle.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
I don't think she would have made it out alive otherwise. Although she didn't know it at the time, Guy's demand for a divorce had not exactly come out of nowhere. In fact, it was something he'd been planning for some time.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Yeah, like anybody who had an interest in true crime or had looked into any kind of true crime-y things, you would come upon this case and the enduring mystery that was associated with it. And the victim, who remained unidentified for nearly five decades. Just crazy. That's wild. So this victim and her killer were the source of so much speculation, too.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
At least since starting up an affair with his soon-to-be second wife, Manzanita Manzi Mearns. Aww. Guy had met Mearns several months earlier when she came into the antique store with her husband, William, while the couple was visiting from Vancouver. Manzi and Guy hit it off immediately and their affair soon started. By 1958, they both had divorced their respective spouses and got married.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Manzi and her teenage daughter, Dolores, moved into the apartment Guy occupied above the antique store.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Dolore. Whatever charms Manzi had seen in Guy before the marriage soon wore off after they got married. This is what he does.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
While Guy cultivated a certain persona at the antique store, you know, he would chat up the wealthy women in order to sell them expensive antiques, Manzi worked really hard at a local bank and would come home and continue having to do more work at the store. According to author Anne Rule, ever heard of her? I know her.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
For Guy, it was a social time, but his wife and stepdaughter would have preferred to have family dinner and some quiet evening.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
At some point, Manzi began noticing that certain women were coming by the store far more often than they needed to, but they always left without purchasing anything.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Whenever she would express his pleasure with the fact that this was happening, you know, show some jealousy to him, he would insist that he had no interest in any other woman, and any flirting he did was strictly for the purposes of making a sale. But Manzi didn't really believe him. It's Also, like, you can make a sale without flirting.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Well, and after all, it wasn't too long ago that she'd left her husband and two youngest children behind to move in with the man she knew as Raul. So she knew how convincing and charming he could be. And she was like, fuck, he's probably doing it to other people.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Now, whatever stories and exaggerations Guy told his wife to alleviate her concerns, they were nothing compared to the outright lies he was telling women who came in the antique show store. He said he was born in Saint-Tropez in the French Riviera. He told them that he had been raised in a family of well-known and widely respected French antique dealers.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
He had come to the United States as a teenager and was so brilliant that he was immediately accepted at the University of California. And then he joined the Army and did a six-year tour of duty, engaged in some of World War II's most notorious battles. None of that was true.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Not a one of it. Not one thing of that was true. It's unclear how much of this his customers actually even believed, to be honest, especially considering the timeline did not match up at all. But it kept them coming back. And more importantly to him, they were paying attention to him and buying his shit.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
It didn't seem to matter. By March 1960, it was becoming clear that Manzi and Guy's marriage was falling apart. Yeah. According to Ann Rule, neighbors could not help but notice a lovely middle-aged blonde who arrived at the antique shop close to midnight several evenings a week. And that's closing time. Yeah.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
And that was also while Manzi sat in their apartment upstairs, completely unaware of what was, well, probably aware of what was happening. Yeah, that's very sad. But not wanting to believe it. A month later, Manzi and Dolores suddenly disappeared. Both of them? Yep. causing neighbors to speculate that she'd grown tired of guys cheating and finally decided to leave him.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
For those who knew her, however, Manzi's disappearance came as a big surprise. She'd always been very reliable, a very good worker, so the manager at the bank was very stunned that she would suddenly quit, like not show up, and just quit without notice. Also, Dolores had seemed very committed to her studies at university.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
So the faculty there was very surprised that she just stopped attending classes without saying anything.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
And the couple next door, with whom Manzi had become pretty close, they were sure that she would have talked to them before she left. Like, they would have said something.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
In fact, they were hurt that she didn't say goodbye, but then that soon turned to serious concern. Now, whenever anyone asked about Manzi and Dolores, Guy would tell them that she had gone to Vancouver to visit relatives. When the two of them still hadn't returned, though, after weeks, Guy was forced to explain that his wife had, in fact, left him and taken her daughter.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
We even talked about it in our episode about it. Yeah. This speculation and theorizing ranged from being an extra in the Jaws films to a victim of the local mob. Yep. And Whitey, of course. The local mob. Yep. I was like, indeed. And Whitey, who was his own thing. I thought he was anti-mob. No, he's like part of the mob. Oh. He's anti-drug. Anti-drug, that's what it is.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
He feigned embarrassment and appeared pretty sheepish whenever it would come up. He would say to people, she doesn't love me anymore, and Manzi closed out our joint bank account. She took every penny I've saved for the shop and to buy more antiques. She even burned all my business records before she left.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
That's nice. To those around him, he did seem upset about the whole thing. He drank heavily. He appeared depressed. He would often let days pass without even opening the antique shop. Oh, wow. And after a few months, he finally managed to pull himself together, though, and file for divorce from Manzi, citing cruelty and desertion as the reason for filing. Okay.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Then, to everyone's surprise, though, in July, just a few months after his wife had disappeared, and just 72 hours after getting their divorce, Guy remarried. 72 hours?
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Girl. Yeah. Wow. This time to Evelyn Emerson, the daughter of two of his wealthiest customers, Clifford and Jermaine Winkler. Okay. To those who had been close with Guy and Manzi, the speed at which he moved on and remarried came as a shock. But by then, the only opinions Guy seemed to give a shit about were his very wealthy in-laws' opinions. He didn't give a shit what anyone else was saying.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Evelyn seemed equally taken with Guy and told friends she was eager to start traveling around the world with him, purchasing antiques, all of which she believed was going to be funded by a Fulbright scholarship. Oh, no. That's how much this guy was able to convince people. Yeah. Now, just days after the wedding, Guy approached Clifford and Jermaine, his in-laws, with a business proposition.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
He had been offered the opportunity to buy a large amount of First Nations art and artifacts from a dealer in Canada for the price of $8,000. Okay. Because Manzi had taken all the money. He didn't have the funds to make the purchase.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
So he claimed that he'd put down $500 as a deposit on the items, and he had received assurances from two collectors in Seattle who were willing to pay nearly twice the price. He just needed the money to close the sale. The Winklers had known Guy for some time now, and as far as they knew, they thought he was a smart businessman, a savvy investor, so they happily lent him the money.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
And they even gave him an additional $2,000 to make sure he was fully covered. Oh, such nice people. A few days later, on August 3rd, Guy announced that he would be making the trip to Canada, but he was going to do it alone. And he told Evelyn he thought the trip might be dangerous and he didn't want to put her at any risk.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
A week passed, and Evelyn still hadn't heard from her new husband. Fearing something might have happened to him, she called the only one of Guy's friends she knew, which was his lawyer, Jeffrey Hyman. Jeffrey tried to reassure her that Guy was probably fine, but then he learned that Guy had been carrying a large sum of money like that, and he was like, uh-oh. Actually, that is a little concerning.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
That concern only grew a few days later when Jeffrey was unable to confirm that Guy had even gotten onto flights leaving from Seattle on August 3rd. Having run out of ideas, they called the police and reported him missing. The case was assigned to Sergeant Herb Swindler—what a name— Herb Swindler of Seattle's Crimes Against Persons unit, who immediately began investigating the disappearance.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Swindler confirmed that Evelyn and Hyman had already learned from the airlines that he had not gone on any planes, but then they called the Pacific National Bank where Guy had an account. The bank manager told the detective that Guy had been into the bank on August 3rd. Oh. And he'd cashed a $10,000 check from Jermaine Winkler, as well as withdrawn $3,000 from his own account. That's so crazy.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
But when Swindler asked whether the money had been converted to Canadian currency... He said, uh-uh. It was not. It was still in U.S. dollars. He said, nor. Nope. That was when it occurred to Swindler that Guy hadn't gone missing. He'd stolen their money and fled the states.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Yeah, he was on the yam. Swindler became even more suspicious a few days later when Jeffrey Hyman received a phone call from a woman who said, Actually, I have flown on a plane to San Francisco with Guy on August 4th. And he was supposed to be in Canada on August 4th. According to the caller, she was positive it was him because she, quote, has known him for a long time.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
He's anti-like, well, I shouldn't say anti-drug, but, you know, look into Whitey Pulitzer.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
So Swindler flew to San Francisco to interview this woman and learned that she and Guy had been carrying on an affair for about five years. Five years? When the woman found out Guy had married Evelyn, she was pissed. Obviously. Which is why she chose to call Jeffrey Hyman in the first place. Queen.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
The further the investigation went, the more women emerged to report their ongoing relationships with Muldaven. That's why you don't wrong women. He's literally like Bluebeard. He is like Bluebeard. It's actually crazy. Yeah. And we didn't even plan that. No. Most of them felt they'd been taken advantage of by a con man. He's literally Bluebeard. Because they had.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Yeah, he's literally, he's, what's his name? Bluebeard Watson. Watson, there. The discovery of Guy's lies prompted Jeffrey Hyman. Guy's lies, sorry. Guy's lies. It's like that scene in He's Never Been Kissed. Yikes. Yikes. You are a guy.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
It's true. Guy's lies. The discovery of Guy's lies prompted Jeffrey Hyman and Swindler to wonder whether what he'd said about Manzi and Dolores leaving was actually true. Immediately, they were like, wait a second, this guy's a fucking liar. Yeah. Survey says, no.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Having checked the bank, both men now knew Manzi hadn't taken any money from their bank account like he claimed to everyone. And it was just the beginning because everyone had felt strange that no one had heard from either of these women since he said they disappeared. Like no one in their life, they just disappeared.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
According to the neighbors, the last time anyone had seen Manzi and Dolores was on March 31st, and both of them had acted completely normal. In fact, according to their neighbor, Karen Yerrick, Dolores seemed excited about starting her new classes. So it just didn't make sense. That breaks your heart. There was one other thing that Karen Yorick wanted to tell the detectives, though.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
She realized it might seem strange, but she said not long after Manzi and Dolores disappeared, Yorick noticed one of the windows in Muldaven's basement was open, which she'd never noticed before. About a month later, Yorick and her husband noticed a, quote, foul odor coming from the house. The odor was bad enough that they asked a guy about it.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Hi, Papa. So after decades, literal decades, like I said, of complete mystery, not being able to tie anyone to this, DNA from the remains of who was known as the Lady of the Dunes was subject to extensive genetic matching and was finally identified. She was 37-year-old California resident Ruth Terry.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
And he told them, quote, it was only some crab that had spoiled, and he threw it into the garbage can. Uh-huh. No. In your basement? Babes, everybody, it's never crab that is spoiled. No. Just call someone. You'll know the difference.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Don't worry. And even if you don't, call someone. Just call. You might as well just check. Things became even more ominous when detectives searched Muldaven's house and found that this is so chilling. They found that all of Manzi and Dolores' clothing and belongings were still there. Oh. From their hairspray and makeup to Dolores' school books, Manzi's purse.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Also, investigators were beginning to notice small inconsistencies in the stories that Guy Wurst was telling neighbors and friends. The main part of the story, that Manzi had left and stolen their money, was always the same. But the less important parts, how much she'd stolen, what town she'd gone to, so on and so forth, they seemed to change depending on who he was talking to. Ugh.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
But the question was, where the fuck is his ex-wife and his stepdaughter? Right. Now, in late August, Swindler received a call from the sheriff's office in Wenatchee, Washington, a small town about 150 miles from Seattle. Deputies there had discovered, and this is horrific, deputies there had discovered a pair of woman's legs floating in the Columbia River a few months earlier.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
At the same time, they also received information from a local rental car agency, letting them know that Guy had rented a panel van on April 6th, just a few days after Manzi and Dolores went missing.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
The mileage on the odometer showed that Guy had driven 316 miles, which was about the distance from Seattle... to this place in Washington. Lab analysis confirmed that the legs matched Manzi's height and weight, and the blood type was also a match.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
It goes crazy. But what kills me is, like, this is not going to end the way you want it to.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
And when you look at this, you say, but you have all this. You have an odometer that says it. You have him renting the car. All of this. I'm like, what do you mean you didn't have enough to get him?
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
And there's more. Based on all the evidence they compiled, investigators did get a warrant to search the entire Moldovan house from top to bottom. In the kitchen, technicians discovered small blood stains on the walls. And the stairs leading to the attic were also known to seem to have droplets of blood leading up the stairs.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
On the wall leading up the stairs to the attic, there was a faint smear that they suspected was blood leading from the kitchen all the way up the stairs to the attic. And when they reached the attic, investigators discovered what was fucking clearly a crime scene. There were droplets, smears, even what looked to be dried pools of blood all over the room. And they didn't have enough to arrest him?
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
And it looked like someone didn't even bother to really clean it up. Instead, he had just put fucking shit over the stains, like rolled up rugs, paint, other household items, just over the stains.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Detectives also found hair evidence in what would later be fucking identified as human tissue. as well as a broken human tooth that would be identified as having come from someone roughly 21 years of age.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
So awful. 37 years old. Yeah. And a year later, authorities in Massachusetts announced their main suspect in the murder was Guy Moldaven, who was Terry's husband at the time of her death. Moldavin died in 2002. Oh, motherfucker. And so he couldn't be prosecuted for the crime. So the case was finally closed.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
How did they not feel like they had enough? They never even tried to. Beats me. Well, okay, so the evidence in the attic strongly suggested that Guy Muldaven had murdered his wife and stepdaughter, then dismembered their bodies. If not just flat-out screamed at investigators, he did it.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
And Swindler also recalled what the Yareks had said about the odor coming from the house and seeing Guy working on the septic tank shortly after Manzi and Dolores disappeared. So the detectives were like, oh, bitch. So they obtained the necessary tools to access the septic tank. Whoa.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
And when they opened the lid and started pumping out the contents, they discovered what appeared to be human remains. In the septic tank?
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
The remains would be removed to the medical examiner's office where Dr. Gail Wilson would confirm that they were human remains. Among the remains in the tank, and this is horrifying, I want everybody to realize that. In the tank, there was a uterus. Oh my God. With a small portion of the vaginal vault attached.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
The upper portion of the right ear of a human, which had been hacked off, like brutally hacked off. Five pieces of colon, one section of lung, one partial kidney, an alder bone, a radial epiphysis, and four phalangeal bones. Phalangeal. Sorry, I said that weird. That's okay. I think all of us moved past it while we sat in shock.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
There is a real possibility that he flushed actual organs.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Yeah. And they never got him for this? Nope. How? In 1960, DNA testing was still decades away. So they were not able to tell whether those remains or the remains in the Columbia River were those of Manzi and Dolores.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
They knew that. And it strongly suggested that some criminal and violent thing had happened in the house. So with that, the case did turn from, you know, missing persons and larceny cases to a double homicide with their prime suspect on the run. They were going after him now. They were like, okay.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Now, while Swindler continued his pursuit of Guy Maldavin, additional investigators were added to the case to try to locate the rest of Manzi and Dolores' bodies. In the meantime, police had located Guy's brother, Michael. He was in San Diego. And he tried to fill in some blanks for them in this story, like the fact that his name was not Raul.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
He said, Guy and I lived together for a good part of our youth, but I can't say we were ever close.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Yeah, he told a reporter, guy cut himself off from his family. He told me very little about himself, and I never pried. Which, like, good for you, Michael. Unfortunately, while Michael could provide investigators with some background on his brother, he hadn't seen him in years. Right. And he's like, I have no idea where he could have gone after leaving Seattle.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
He could be going by any name at that point. Yeah. In late September, the Winklers, remember his wife Evelyn's parents, his in-laws who he stole the money from. Yep. They got a letter that had been dated back in March. And this letter was saying that it was from someone named Major John Riley. I feel like it's probably Guy. Probably. The Winklers knew no one by that name.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
But identifying Ruth's killer brought an end to literally one of the most enduring murder mysteries in Massachusetts. Oh, yeah. For sure. But identifying the Lady of the Dunes and who killed her turned out to be actually the beginning of a brand new series of mysteries. In fact, investigators soon learned this might not have been Muldaven's first murder.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
And its purpose, it seemed, was to assure them that Guy Moldaven was a great man. I don't think so. In fact, the writer spent most of its two pages just enthusiastically gushing about the achievements of Guy Moldaven. It's screaming narcissism. It is yelling from the rooftops. It's a howler, actually. It is a howler. That's exactly it. Ronald Weasley! That's literally what this was doing.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
A handwriting expert analyzed the letter and concluded that the handwriting of Major John Reilly was an exact match for Guy Moldaven. No way! But unfortunately, the postmark had been smeared, so there was no way to tell where it was mailed from. Y'all.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
By the end of the fall, Swindler and other investigators were beginning to feel as though Moldavin had actually gotten beyond their reach at this point. It does be feeling that way. And just a few days after Thanksgiving, they received a call from detectives in New York City. I bet that made them thankful. To inform them that guy, right?
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
To inform them that guy had been arrested on the larceny charge. Chop! Swindler immediately booked a flight to New York, and a few hours later, he was sitting across from the fucking man that they had been pursuing for months. Stop it. He later said, Okay.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
At the time, the FBI were holding Guy on a charge of unlawful flight to avoid giving testimony and the charge of grand larceny for the theft of the Winkler's $8,000. Yes. Actually, I think it ends up being... It's a lot more than, yeah. But if Swindler and the other detectives thought Moldavin would simply confess to the murders of Manzi and Dolores, they were very mistaken.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
In fact, rather than appearing guilty or ashamed, he seemed to kind of love the attention he was getting and he welcomed the opportunity to demonstrate what he believed to be his superior intelligence. Oh, goody. Because he liked getting right up to the point of telling them and then he would pull it back. Douchebag.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
He said, he told Swindler, I'm morally guilty of Manzanita's and Dolores's deaths. Okay. But he said, I was the only person living with them and the only person who might have had an opportunity to commit these crimes. But he would just stop right before there. So he would say like, yeah, I was the only one who probably could have done it. And they'd be like, did you do it? I hate him.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
He's a fucking asshole. Yeah, he is. Guy was held on $50,000 bail as preparations were made to extradite him back to Washington. He didn't protest it. Also, the press couldn't resist a sensational story at the time. They were calling him the hipster, bunco artist and great lover who was arrested after the grisly discovery of human remains in his septic tank. Do better. Do so much better.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
In newspapers around the country, the press delighted in describing Guy's many affairs and his ability to charm anyone he met. The New York Daily News described his antique shop as a gather spot for beatniks, art lovers, celebrities, and celebrity hunters, all bound by Moldovan's magnetism and offbeat philosophy. Shut up. Fuck off. All of the above. He's a piece of shit.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
The games and theatrics continued once Guy had gone to Seattle. A few days after his arrest, he started a hunger strike, publicly declaring that he had willed himself to die. And I said, you're not alone.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
A few days later, on December 6th, he was interviewed again by Swindler, this time telling him, and this is awful, he said, I'll tell you all about the murders as soon as I talk to a Jesuit priest. So he was allowed to speak to a priest, and after he did, he refused to speak with Swindler or any of the other detectives and would only say, they are dead and I'm alive, and that's what's important.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
I mean, given how brutal it was, that checks. And, in fact, it's one of several mysterious disappearances that all link back to him. Oh, okay.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Like literally fuck this guy. I hope he is rotting so hard in hell where he is. I think something's awaiting him in his next life. He already met it. He's meeting it as we speak. He's been meeting it. He's been there for a while now. I hope you're tired. Hope it sucks.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
In early 1961, the prosecutor in King County, Washington, had charged Moldavin with grand larceny and he was bound over for trial. Okay. At the same time, the federal authorities were eager to get him for the murders of Manzi and Dolores. So they admitted, and I don't understand this, the case against him was weak in their eyes.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
I feel like it's like this was the time when it was like without a body, you don't have a case. But you got some body. But you can't identify that body. That's the problem is you can't... They haven't said that this is... You know, we know. You know what it is.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
So it really does come down to the DA. But I don't know if it was like that was the attitude here was like, we can't definitively say. So it's weak in our eyes, which I'm like, I don't get that. That's not a weak. You also have that like the rental car in the area where the body was found in the river.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
You have the odometer basically having the same amount of miles to go from Seattle to where the body was found, like the body parts. And also, like, he has shitty character. He does.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
You could definitely get him on everything else. So after multiple pretrial hearings and motions for dismissal, the larceny trial got underway in October. The defense opened by interviewing Evelyn, his wife, who explained that the money that he had stolen, he had not stolen. That was a loan. He didn't steal anything.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
And he bamboozled you guys. Like that wasn't him just not, you know, like that doesn't. This was honestly the foundation of the defense's argument, though. Guy may have been unfaithful and a shitty person, but the money had been given to him in good faith and he had not stolen anything. He merely failed to return with the items he intended to purchase.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
I give her a pass. Now, during the trial, Guy testified in his own defense, telling the jury that... That checks so hard. Yeah. He said that he was bullied as a child, and that led to a life of resentment, which in turn led him to become a deceitful person. Okay. I would like to point out that many people have been bullied and do not turn into deceitful pieces of shit.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Yeah. So let's go back to the Lady of the Dunes in case you need a little bit of a recap here. On the afternoon of July 26, 1974, Leslie Metcalf, a local P-Town girl, left a friend's cottage along the National Seashore and began chasing after her dog. When she reached the dunes, about a mile from the Race Point Ranger Station, Leslie could hear the dog barking from somewhere close by.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
In fact, according to Guy, all the behavior that made him appear suspicious, the constant lies, his secrecy, all that shit, you know, the crime scene in his house, it could all be attributed to his sensitivities around being bullied. Huh. He was just sad, you know? Okay. Like, what? What? I'm not seeing the linear pathway there.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
The reason I have multiple affairs and treat my wives like shit and steal money from people and lie and have body parts in my septic tank is because I was bullied. And it's a sensitive subject. And it's like, please connect those fucking dots for me. Connect one of those dots.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
There's no dots. I don't even see a dot. Like, what are you doing? Like, who let him say that? He claimed he had gone to Canada and went ahead with the purchase. But he had not. To which we say, babe, we have proof you didn't. Right. What? You never flew there. And he said, but the deal fell through and he was cheated out of the money. Just like, remember, Manzi stole all the money from him.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
We proved that didn't happen too, but that's no matter. Unreal. He was cheated again. That's crazy. He gets cheated a lot.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
He said, and he said after that, he couldn't face his new bride and her stepmother. So he left August 4th, 1960. I want to be clear with you what he just said. He couldn't face his wife and his stepmother, his new stepmother.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Yeah. We're not going to talk about the father-in-law. We're only going to villainize the women here, which seems to be a fucking path in his life. Sure does. Now, despite the best efforts of the defense, the jury found Guy guilty of grand larceny, luckily.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
But this is awful because when it came to sentencing, he was given a 15-year suspended sentence and allowed to leave court a free man. Wait, why? Yep. They were, it was a suspended sentence. The judge may suspend the sentence in part or in full, and the defendant serves probation. Ah. Yeah, so he was given the 15-year suspended sentence, so he could just, like, serve probation.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
But he was able to walk out a free man that day. And due to lack of evidence in their eyes, police were unable to charge Moldavin with the murders of Manzi and Dolores. And that remains unsolved to this day. It actually doesn't. It doesn't. Now, after the trial, Evelyn and Guy actually stayed married for a few years before ultimately getting a divorce.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
In February 1974, that's when Guy and Ruth Terry were married. Then they left for their honeymoon on Cape Cod. That was on their honeymoon, by the way.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Now, what happened after Guy left Massachusetts after he murdered Ruth Terry is somewhat of a mystery. It looks like he eventually returned to California. He lived basically there the rest of his life with few people close to him actually knowing who he was. Right. Like they didn't know his scandalous history. His past or anything. They didn't know any of the things that he was accused of.
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Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
He really surrounded himself by people he could fool. Yeah. In the 1980s, he took a position on a local radio station, hosting a show called Talk to Me, which covered topics ranging from cuts in social security, Alzheimer's disease, homosexuality, this is a quote by the way, the erosion of culture, and his belief that killing has become a habit. Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
I want to go back and I want to hear some of those because I want to see what he was saying. I do too. Yeah. On March 14th, 2002, Guy Muldaven died after a long illness at his home. I hate that he was able to be comfortable. I do too. He was never charged with any of the murders he was suspected of having committed. And he appears to have been remembered by friends and family as great and terrific.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
So she walked about, you know, like 50 yards into the brush, and she ended up seeing something strange, but she looked at it and was like, I think that's a dead animal. Mm-hmm. So her first thought was like, I don't want to get too close. And she's like, and I should grab the dog and get the fuck out of here because the dogs are going to try to like eat it. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
He sounds like a whatever he was guilty of. He sounds like a complete asshole.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
And there's no way. The crime scene literally in his home. The body parts in his septic tank. Like, come on. Get it together, everybody.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
So she got a little closer just to grab the dog and get out of there. But when she did step closer, she noticed that it wasn't an animal. It was clearly a woman. And she was very clearly dead. In fact, she had been dead for some time, and the cause of death appeared to be a, quote, fist-sized hole in her left temple. My God.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Leslie ran to tell her parents what she'd found, and a few hours later, the beach was absolutely crawling with investigators, detectives, crime scene techs, press, you name it. Since the 1940s, P-Town, Massachusetts, has been a popular vacation destination.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Very popular. Yeah. Huge tourist. So much fun. You know, like, yeah. And because of this, you know, other places that are like this can understand this. Because of this, the local officials do have to deal with, like, a fair share of crime. Of course, yeah. Be it small crimes or big crime. It's not like it's this crime-ridden area.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
It's just when a bunch of people are coming from all over the place, you're going to get some undesirables.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Of course. Now, and honestly, this is like a very popular place to like to go stay or vacation at for several months of the year. So at least for those several months, that's when they really have to worry about crime ticking up. The other times, pretty chill. Right. But rarely had police dealt with the kind of cruelty that they saw here.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Based on the advanced decomp, the medical examiner estimated that this woman had been laying on the beach for at least a week, but probably longer. The body was lying face down on a beach blanket. Her head was nearly decapitated from her body. Wild. Her skull had been bashed in with a blunt object, and both hands and one forearm were missing. Yep.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
It appeared as though her killer had left her with her head lying on her clothing, which had been neatly folded.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Very strange, yeah. And there was no signs of resistance, like I was saying. So that led investigators to theorize that maybe she had known her killer. One park ranger said there was no sign of a struggle. Even the sand hadn't been disturbed.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
There was very little evidence really at all collected at the scene, and there was no identification on the body, so they knew that was going to be a challenge to tell who she was. And remember, we're in the 70s here. I was just going to say. Now, during the autopsy, the medical examiner found evidence that the victim had been sexually assaulted, and this is very graphic. I apologize.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
She had been sexually assaulted by a piece of wood, which is absolutely horrific. She had been subjected to strangulation and the cause of death was listed as blunt force injury to her skull. So she was like tortured. Absolutely. The hands and teeth of their victim had been removed as well. At least some of the teeth had been removed.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
And they theorized that this was probably done to dissuade an identification. Of course, yeah. Now, the medical examiner also noted that the victim, from what they could tell from what she had left, that she had had extensive dental work done in recent years. And they described it as New York style and estimated it to have cost anywhere from $5,000 to $10,000, which now is a lot. Back then.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Even more. Even more. As investigators expected, you know, attempts at identifying the victim without hands, without teeth. Yeah. You know, like that's really, really difficult anyways. And in the 70s. Exactly. It's difficult to identify someone when you have all those things sometimes. Right. Never mind when that's gone. So the press dubbed her the Lady of the Dunes.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
As far as the local police knew, no one had been reported missing. No one had come forward to identify the woman in the police sketches. So they weren't really confident that she was a local at that point. And they were correct. And while it was not unusual for young people or those, you know, that didn't have the means to rent a room in the area or any of the cottages...
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
For them to sleep on the beach, like that was not a strange thing, especially in the 70s. And also like a really nice area. It is. It's beautiful. The victim's extensive and expensive dental work suggested that she was probably not from a working class background. Right. So that probably wouldn't have been what they were doing. She would have been able to stay somewhere. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Without any leads or any way to identify the body, the case went cold within a few months. And in October of that year, the remains were buried in an unmarked plot in a local cemetery. Which is so sad. It was so sad because she just went into the ground. Unknown. Unknown. Completely. But brutalized and unknown. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Now, over the years, as advances in, you know, science and technology kind of brought forth new investigative techniques, you know, things like DNA and even fingerprinting became more advanced, like all these things advanced, the body was exhumed and examined for new clues. But nothing ever really came out of it, like no significant leads. And at this point, it is just this woman's body.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
As decomposition advances. And in the absence of any leads or any suspects, members of law enforcement and the public started to speculate— as to who this person could have been. Because they were like, somebody's got to come up with something here. Yeah, we've got to theorize a little.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Yeah, so some believed that she was an extra in Steven Spielberg's film Jaws, which had been filmed that summer on Martha's Vineyard, and maybe they thought she drifted over after production ended. Sounds kooky a little bit because you're like, she was an extra in Jaws, but it kind of made sense as well.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Yeah, so you were like, maybe. And others thought she was, you know, the missing attempted murderer Rory Kessinger, who had escaped from a Plymouth jail the previous year. And some thought she might have been a victim of Boston mob boss Whitey Bulger. That's the guy. Who often spent time in P-Town and was known to remove the teeth of his victims. Yep.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
And the whole hands thing, the really going to extensive lengths to stop identification, did come off very mob. Yeah, definitely. Every theory... no matter how kooky or unrealistic it sounded, was investigated and ruled out. The investigators here, I remember like when we'd covered this, I was so like taken by how personal the investigators took this case. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Like they just did not want to let this go. Right. Like it was not something that they were willing to... Good Massachusetts folks. Just good Massachusetts guys, you know? You know, these cops are all right. But after decades of investigation, detectives never made any progress on the case, no matter how hard they tried. But they didn't let it go.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Finally, in the fall of 2022, after nearly 50 years, Massachusetts FBI agents held a press conference to announce that thanks to the beauty of DNA analysis and extensive genealogical research, the Lady of the Dunes had finally been identified as Ruth Marie Terry. She was, quote, a Tennessee native wife and mother. A mother. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Investigators spent the better part of a year investigating Terry's husband at the time, Guy Moldavin, who again died in 2002. The DA wrote in a press release in 2023, based on the investigation into the death of Miss Terry, it has been determined that Mr. Moldavin was responsible for Miss Terry's death. Now, according to the DA, Robert Galibois, I love that name. Galibois.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
The couple had married five months before. Just five months before. Five months in Reno, Nevada. I'm sorry, I say it wrong, but I'm from Massachusetts. That's how we say it. And drove across the country to Tennessee to visit Terry's family after they got married, then traveled up to New England that summer. So they had just been at her family's house in Tennessee. That's unreal.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
When this man did this as soon as, like, right when they left. Yeah. And this is even worse. When Mel Davin returned in the fall, still driving Ruth's car, by the way, he told her friends and family that she had just passed away. What? Yep. When Ruth's brother pressed Moldavin for answers, because what the fuck, she's 37 years old. She just passed away.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Moldavin said, quote, that they had a fight during their honeymoon and he had not heard from his wife again. That does not check. He then made some mention of her running off to join a cult and said when she didn't return, he sold her belongings.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Yeah. And Ruth's family never believed this explanation. And they always suspected that he had done something to Ruth. But without any evidence to disprove what he was saying. What are you going to do? Their hands were tied. Of course. Which I feel fucking awful for her family.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
Torture. It must have been torturous. Torture. It's awful. So in their press conference and press releases, the district attorney's office revealed few details about the investigation or the circumstances that led to Ruth Terry's death. After killing Ruth in P-Town, Muldaven returned to California where he had an antiques business.
Morbid
Episode 632: The Suspected Crimes of Guy Muldavin
He married two more times and became active in his community in Salinas before again dying in 2002 after a long illness. His obituary in The Californian described him as an artist, actor, and poet. Not a douchebag? No mention of his several previous marriages. Also, every time I hear The Californian, I think of the SNL skits The Californians. Oh, I feel like you showed me that one.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Hey, weirdos. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about a place where the darkness never ends. Wondery Plus. It's like stepping into a haunted mansion where the floorboards creak with ad-free episodes and early access to new episodes lurks around every corner. So come join us if you dare. Morbid is available one week early and ad-free only on Wondery Plus.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
And that's like a little concerning in and of itself. Yeah, definitely. Not that you want somebody to be like traumatized by these things. No, but you want it to make... Being like wholly unaffected is like interesting. Yeah, I feel like you would be concerned.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Yeah, I was going to say that's a very bad thing.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like he hasn't had any trouble in that area.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
And he's in a teen nightclub. Yeah, he's outside of a teen nightclub. Very Rodney. Just a grown-ass man outside a teen nightclub.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Yep, I'm not worried at all at this point. No.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
And it's the time period, remember?
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
I feel delirious today. Yeah, we didn't get a lot of sleep last night in my house. I'm not really sure why. Like nothing happened. That upset anyone to their degree of not being able to sleep. Just a restless night? A restless night for everyone. I hate that. Not for me. Yeah, it was like mass hysteria in my house. I don't know what happened. Damn.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Oh, my God. So she escaped him twice. And it was like she had to go through a lot to escape him. Yeah, she was assaulted in a great way.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
She was saying she didn't feel like she was going to be believed. I was going to say. And they'd probably just be like, well, you went to the house. Like, especially in that situation.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Meanwhile, her parents live in the Chateau Marmont right now. Yes, she is living there. He's bringing her back to where she lives. Yes.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Oh, my God. He is a fucking monster. He's a monster. She's eight. She is a baby. I can't even.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Yeah, this will do it. As soon as you said the Appalachian TikTok, I said, uh-oh.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
I am so glad. I hope that never comes back to her. Never, ever, ever. I hope she never, that never resurfaces. Ever.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or an Apple podcast or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
He's renting this apartment. That's blowing my mind.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Like, that's blowing my mind. Like, how this went any further after that.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Yeah. He sexually assaulted an eight year old. So do you want to you want to suck that one back into your mouth? Essentially tried to kill her. So I hate that shit. Yeah, I do hate that shit. Don't say that. Don't say that. When you just heard that this man might be a child rapist, don't say he wouldn't hurt a fly.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Because that's not true. We can only hope that whoever said that didn't know what he was being accused of. I know it's like the impression of somebody. Like I... How many times you hear about something happening and you hear the people be like... Holy shit.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
I never would have expected that. But it's like... Just, you know, be careful of the words that come out of your mouth during those times.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Like, you know, he's got that kind of like... He can turn it on, but when it's off, it's all the way off.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
I mean, somebody just said he wouldn't hurt a fly. He obviously is not showcasing his aggression outside of these things.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
The amount of women who must be like, holy shit.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
That's so scary. It's horrifying.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
It was like during the 1930s, 40s. It was literally, and they were being sensitive to make sure family members didn't see these scenes.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
what the fuck wild who would ever bring especially like their boyfriend or their loved one significant other any loved one of any kind to see them in that position yeah that will ruin you for the rest of your life i don't know how you ever recover from seeing someone you love in that position i would never recover You don't.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
We even take great... That doesn't make any fucking sense to me because I've done plenty of viewings when I worked at the morgue. We went to great lengths to make sure there was nothing upsetting about... I'm sure. Like, nothing beyond seeing your loved one dead. Of course.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
But, like, we would go to great lengths to make sure there was nothing seen that was beyond what they were already going to see. Exactly. So, like, I just can't. Like, my brain doesn't...
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Yeah. I can't. The fact that they had that guy do that is so messed up.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
He's got a distinct face. Yeah, it's not like he's, I'm trying to think of like how to describe it because it's not like he's like, you know, like somebody that you're like, oh, like how could you ever like, you know, even like they look like everybody else. He's just got something. He's got very like, it's very like cheekbones are very, he's very reminiscent of Richard Ramirez.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
where he has like very like pronounced cheekbones he's got like you know his eyes are like a certain way so i understand because like a lot of guys around that time like same haircut same kind of thing going on yeah so you'd be like yeah i don't know it kind of so the fact that they are so so sure like this has got to be that you know he's got to have some something something about him i think it's
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
You know, aren't we all? I think that's valid. I think people in Appalachia would tell us we're doing the right thing by being paranoid about it. Let us know. Because you hear, even if it's like, you know, folklore to me is like top notch horror. It's very interesting, but man. It'll getcha. It'll getcha. And Appalachia is, like, just lousy with folklore.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
His eyes. His eyes are very... They're dead. And they're scary. They're, yeah. Like, there's something evil in those eyes, it feels like. Something is, like, brimming in those eyes.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Because you get why people are...
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
didn't think twice about him again he is super charismatic he's very much like a like in the vein of ted bundy that way i was literally just thinking that and i think it's the intelligence level they know they and they study other people and they see what makes people tick when they talk to others and what makes people a people like they they literally just try to kind of duplicate and imitate what they see and it works because they're highly intelligent yeah
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
But thank goodness this guy went this far because I'm glad people intervened here. It seems like this is a case that's very different from a lot of cases we see.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
And again, you have a lot more after that coming, so.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Like, the whole, like, if you hear... They'll be like, if you hear, you know, a whistle outside, you better get inside. And it's like... And then you'll be like, why? And they're like... Can't tell ya. Can't tell ya. And you're like, ah! And then they're like, Johnny Boy here.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Johnny Boy here knows why. And then you're like, Johnny Boy, why? And he's like... I've been sworn to secrecy.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
You're like, why don't you talk? And he's like, I can't talk to tell you. He just shrugs at you. He zips his mouth and he throws away the key. And here's the thing. I respect it.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
I mean, you gave healthy sleeping habits a try and it didn't work out.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Yes. Can I tell you all about it? Do you mind if I encroach on you?
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
It's your discovery. I'm telling you guys, I've been researching like sunrise alarm clocks for months and months and months. They just intrigued me, the idea. The idea is that you are waking up not to like and like jolting you out of deep sleep. Instead, what sunrise alarm clocks do is they have a warm sunrise effect that happens like a light. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
And it slowly rises and gets brighter like a sunrise. And also you can set it to like birds chirping.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Or like a bubbling brook or something. You know what I mean? Like something very, just very calm. Peaceful. And... I was intrigued by this idea because it tricks, it basically like makes your circadian rhythm go into like a lighter sleep for a bit. And then it will wake you out of that lighter sleep. So when you wake up, you feel more rested. Because it's a more natural way to wake up.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Yeah, exactly. And so I was intrigued by it. I was reading all this stuff about it. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to give one a try because I really fucking hate waking up to a jarring alarm. And I was waking up like pissed. So I immediately was like, fuck this. So I tried it and I got the Philips one. And it was like a Christmas birthday present to myself. I was like, let's do this.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
Let's wake up with the goddamn sun. She's natural. I'm natural. Guys.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
it fucking works yeah and i'm telling you it is the like most refreshed and calm i have ever woken up in my life and i've done it for like almost a week now it is lovely yeah you just wake up and you don't know why you're waking up because you don't hear anything yeah and then when you do hear something it's just birds tweeting you know what that must be fucking great i wouldn't know yeah
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
It was angry. It was angry. I can teach you how to take it out of military time, but if you ever need to tell military time, you just subtract two. So 15 o'clock would be like you take from the five. So five, three, two. It's three o'clock.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
I, the only reason I know why to, how to use it is when I was taking criminal justice classes and they made you do like fake police reports and they would make you do it in military time.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
No, I just want to know what time it is. That was my problem was I looked over and I realized it was military time before I went to bed and I was like, oh, I'm not doing math in the middle of the night. So I was like, no, no, I need to just set that. I figured out how I'll help you. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
In my own time. I'm telling you guys, it's very worth it. It has changed my wake up feelings.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
And maybe we'll forget we had that. Yeah, we'll get there. And then we'll have it again.
Morbid
Episode 640: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 1)
You don't have to do anything you don't want to do.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast. When a young woman named Desiree vanishes without a trace, the trail leads to Kat Torres, a charismatic influencer with millions of followers. But behind the glamorous posts and inspirational quotes, a sinister truth unravels. Binge all episodes of Don't Cross Kat early and ad-free on Wondery+.
Morbid
Episode 657: Boston’s Great Molasses Flood of 1919
I was targeted, premeditated, and meant to sow terror.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Hey weirdos, it's Ash here, ready to share a little secret. Have you heard of Wondery Plus? With ad-free episodes and one week early access, it's like having an all-access pass to our lighthearted nightmare. So come join us on the dark side and try Wondery Plus today. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
That, when you genuinely think of, like, the work that had to have gone into that, think of how big, like, LA is a pretty big place. Look at any dump. Yeah. Tell me how hard that would be to find one bag. Just piles and piles of random shit. Yeah. Like, you, that is...
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Which not as detective work I would not want to have to do.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Yeah, just people with absolutely no fucking lives.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Are you proud of your accomplishments? That's the thing. That's the only thing that matters. You like you. You do. You're great.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Which makes sense. And the other ones didn't say that. The other ones didn't because they didn't know that's what it said. Yep. But this one says, here it is. Here it is. And it was also just like, had fun fucking with you. Bye. But like, bye. It wasn't really saying like, this person's next or like, I'm going to turn myself in soon or.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
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Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
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Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
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Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
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Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
I love that with the tap of a little app on my phone, I can check into every single part of my home where a camera is. I can see if the system is armed. If I'm laying in bed and I hear something funky, I can pull up the camera within like three seconds to reassure myself that everything is fine. Traditional security systems only take action after somebody has already broken in and that's too late.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
SimpliSafe's ActiveGuard outdoor protection can help prevent break-ins before they even happen. There's no long-term contracts or cancellation fees, and monitoring plans start affordably at around $1 a day. Visit simplisafe.com slash morbid to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and your first month free. That's simplisafe.com slash morbid.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
There's no safe like SimpliSafe.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Is that what he told me?
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Is that a thing people did? Who knows? Imagine a man's asking you, I mean, like, do you want to go on a Peter Pan with me? Do you want to go on a bus with me? What do you think of Greyhound? Yeah. I guess back then it was like, you want to take a ride on the bus? That's adorable in a way. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
I don't know about this. I don't know if I want to believe a confession from somebody bewildered or befuddled. Exactly.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
We're teetering off the edge here, folks.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
That's sad. It sounds like he was very mentally ill.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Because this isn't the kind of thing, again, I think we touched on it in the first part, like somebody was like, you know, I forget what the, I think it was a newspaper article said something and it was like... The killer snapped and like they were in a crazy frame of mind.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
It's like this isn't the kind of murder that you would just like snap and commit and be like, oh, I don't have any recollection of what happened.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Hours long. Yeah. Like she was tortured. She was bisected. She fought you off. Mm hmm. You drained her of blood for hours.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
It's like there's – At some point you would have come to and had some recollection of part of it.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
You don't commit that like whatever that bisection thing was called in a state of mind where you're not going to remember doing it.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Yeah, you'd remember that.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Maybe I'd be able to go somewhere with that.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Yeah. you know what i was listening i'm not gonna get like everything completely correct because my memory is just a vast land but a vast land of nothing but i was listening to eliza kelly's podcast podcast is so good and she was talking about it was like at the beginning of 2025 i think it might have even been before 25 2025 it was like here's what like how i think it's gonna go basically
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Across the country from where she was.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
And it's also like, if I do get in your car, that's when you'll probably do it. Exactly.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
And it's I think like when from when social media started we've done like a full circle basically like a full rotation. Oh absolutely. So it's almost being flipped on its head now. Yeah. So there's going to be these like massive shifts in social media which could be them crumbling. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Which I will never understand why they didn't photograph that footprint and the tire tracks.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Which it does kind of feel like. And I'm not mad about it. Like I have been off of Instagram for probably two, three weeks now. I am like my insides feel better. Yeah. Genuinely.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
We're not entitled to do so. We're not entitled to lose our minds and kill someone. This isn't like the spirit overtook me and I became frenzied. This is not that. This is not a frenzied murder.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
And the bisection. The bisection is so clean. You're not going to convince me that somebody who was overtaken by a spirit and lost their mind was like, yeah, I just figured out how to bisect her.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
If you're familiar with this case, you've probably seen them.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
no that really did this like really like truly there was no inciting incident like there's always like there's always shitheads in the comments everywhere like yeah in every comment and it wasn't even that it was honestly just like yeah for honestly my inciting incident was like my account following somebody that i didn't follow which i think we all know who that is yes that happened to mine don't support that orange man yeah
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Nope. That's not why she was cut. No, that was not for disposal purposes. Nope. She was posed. She was posed. It wasn't like you just dumped her.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
And honestly, if it was simply only 100% for disposal purposes, this is awful. But you would assume she would be in more pieces. Exactly. Her limbs are in easier disposal.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
No. And at what point did he decide to drain her of all her blood? Exactly. You didn't mention that.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Hey, weirdos. If you guys know one thing about us, it's that we love a deep dive. Well, if you're looking for a limited series that will completely consume you, we've got you covered. Those sketchy texts you're always getting? Sometimes there's something way darker behind them. Imagine helping your brother land a dream job abroad, only to discover you've trapped him in a nightmare.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
I was, like, I'm not going to stick around for this when, like, my account's being manipulated. Yeah. And, like, just see, you know, I follow, like, a lot of, like, news outlets and that kind of thing. And I think it's good to have information. For sure. But I think we are living in an age where there's too much fucking information. There's too much misinformation. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Scam Factory early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
For me already, I have like a ding, ding, ding where his name would have been in her address book if she was dating him. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Precisely. At least in my opinion.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
And if you have any kind of anxiety at all, it will eat you alive.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
She probably did see this happen to somebody. I just don't think that person was Elizabeth Short.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
They are not touched. They are not nicked.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
One think of a power saw, it's going to be vibrating. Yeah, it's going to mangle organs. An organ could slip very easily and exactly get mangled.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Maybe she meant the blood part. Maybe that was her version of being gunned. Her version of saying it. But this one just doesn't fit for me. It just doesn't. But I do feel for her. I do.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
I don't think it's something that you can rely on too heavily because memories are already faulty. Yeah, you can't hang your hat on them. And I'm not saying repressed memories don't exist. I've literally had them. No, they absolutely do. Like I've experienced repressed memory. Absolutely do. But again, it can... They can be wily.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
And a lot of times with repressed memories, even in my own experience, there's missing pieces still within those memories. Exactly. It's not always a full picture. Exactly. Exactly. And our brains are meant, like they, by design, fill in details. Exactly. And like based on experiences, based on what we're consuming, based on so many different things.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Feelings, emotions, how you feel that day, what you ate, what you did, you know what I mean?
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Well, and it's just as much as circumstantial evidence is real, refreshed memories are real, but they are circumstantial evidence.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Yes. And it's like... Yes, that is the perfect way to say it.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Well, there's never been a day and age where you have a fucking thing in your hand that... 24-7 that you can constantly be connected and constantly know what's going on. That is not how we're meant to live.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Psychologically going through a lot.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
I think we've talked about him even before. We've talked about him a few times.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
And to me, because you might be thinking like, okay, well, that other guy had a garage. That's one, not enough space. Two, people are going to hear screaming. They're going to hear those tools mixed with the screaming if that's the way it happened. It just doesn't make sense for me. No, it doesn't make sense.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Correct me if I'm wrong. Was there like tunnels and shit?
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
I do miss connecting to you guys. That's the thing. I miss reading your messages.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
And a lot of times when it's wrapped up in money, the craziest, nastiest, out of this world shit happens.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
You know, it can be great.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Yeah, no, there's no mystery about fucking your own child. It's wrong.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Don't even open it. Just shut it.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Money can get you out of anything.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Some kind of something. I fucking hate veggie broth. Really? When I tried my hand at vegetarianism, that's what it's called, vegetarianism. I went like hard and fast with the veggie broth. And I think now. You overdid it. Yeah, it's not for me. So I always do chicken. I always do bone broth.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Which, when you hear about the phone tapping of it all, I'm like, how did you not continue going into this? Like, how did you not even build more against him? Because I think people got paid off. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Pearl couscous, though. You know Drew doesn't like the pearled couscous. He likes the regular couscous.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
I made the pearl couscous, and he's like, what's this one? I'm like, it's just a bigger version. It's just pearls. He's like, I don't like it. Drew. You're strange. Drew. I love that man.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
So he literally just said it. He killed her, maybe I did. He's the jinx. Yeah. Like, what do you, you have it.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And this is Morbid.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
And he was just, it's literally proven that he was paying law enforcement officers off.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
bonkers they're bananas i don't know how we just fluffed it away and we're like ah i don't know maybe he's a suspect what you almost wonder if he did know that he was being that they had oh he absolutely did at one point with them he absolutely did at one point it's insane
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Big mistake. Like, what the fuck, you guys?
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
It's like, dude, he's dead. Yeah. The least you could do... Just look into it, man. Look into it and see if it's for real. Steve's done all the fucking legwork. He might as well give it a shot. When it's like, you're not getting any more money from this guy. He's dead. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Yeah, prove that you're better.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
And it's like, look into it, man. There's enough here. He absolutely, in my opinion, he is absolutely without a doubt the killer. Yes.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Imagine coming to that realization and imagine what his fucking childhood was. Exactly. Like, my God.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
I feel like after... They're hitting soon. I feel like after this case, there's probably only like one or two episodes before we can... Before it hits you in the face.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Going back to the man ray of it all, like, you guys got to look at some of those photos. It's interesting, to say the least. To even just, like, don't look at the crime scene photos if you don't want to, but even just to hear them described the way that her body was positioned off-center. Yeah. Go look at Man Ray's art. Just go look at it.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
No, we wouldn't tease. And we feel annoying, but we genuinely just cannot say.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
You never know. Like we said, a cold case is never cold. It's never cold. It's never cold.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Yeah. Some more details. Yeah, for sure. Very, very interesting case. I think we could probably revisit it again in even like five more years. Absolutely. And thanks to Dave for doing such a good job with this one too. Dave is one of the smartest people I know. He is. He's lovely. You guys should all have a friend like Dave. You should. So we hope that you keep listening.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
And we hope you keep it weird. I, honey.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
That's a word that you don't fill your own cup. Bring it full circle. Steve, let's talk.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Who knows, 38 days later.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
And my God, I'm so excited about it. I know, it's so exciting. Because also like the... It's such a variety with these two things. It's such a variety. It's going to fill your cup in so many different ways.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Yeah. We'll say it in the intro, too, to whatever we end up talking about.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Sometimes she genuinely actually does that to me. It's great.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
I think that happens a lot with these kind of stories, like the kind of stories where like a young girl goes out to Hollywood and she wants to be an actress. But it's like, that's never the only thing going on in somebody's life. And in fact, usually when a young girl is escaping to California to Hollywood, it's for a whole bunch of other reasons.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
Yeah, like health-wise. Because of her lungs.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
I agree. I see what you mean.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
It's like that's an overarching theme. She wanted to breathe too.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
It is, that's why you might, you might hear sleep in our voices. I know, honestly, probably not. I woke up with a fucking jolt this morning. Did you? Yeah, I just, well, because I woke up. Oh yeah, you were like, ah! Yeah, I was late. What else is new? But I made a good ass coffee. She did. She made a great ass coffee. I wasn't sure if it was good.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
And one said, like, literally. Backed off. Well, and they literally were like, yeah, like, she said her name was this. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
I feel like back then, too. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
The pipeline from boredom to false confession.
Morbid
Episode 648: A Deeper Dive into the Murder of Elizabeth Short (Part 2)
I thought my beans over extracted, but I don't know. No, I think they extracted the correct amount. I think they might have. And then we had like fun girl talk this morning. We did. We lifted each other up. We did. It was women supporting women in the office this morning.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Hey weirdos, it's Ash. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about the spooky perks of Wondery Plus. It's like having a skeleton key that unlocks ad-free listening and early access to new episodes. So don't wait, try Wondery Plus today. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
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Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
No, damn. With a new year comes a new opportunity to reimagine ourselves, and more importantly, reimagine our wardrobes. This year, I'm resolving to refresh my look with quality pieces and stay on budget. And I can, thanks to Quince. I think everyone needs Quince's cozy Mongolian cashmere sweaters that start from $50. And there's no better workout motivation than some new activewear.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
There's a hundred more premium and specialty subscriptions to unlock a world of movies, TV, and sports all in one app. Super duper easy to not have to log in to like 45 different streaming services. Check out subscriptions on Prime Video. Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And this is Morbid 2025.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
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Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
I am so obsessed with their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. I think I have them in every color that they have to offer, so guys, make more colors, and I will be spending that money.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
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Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
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Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
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Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
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Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
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Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
The fact that anyone survived that is absolutely mind-boggling.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
It really just like all the stops along the way and all the there's some kind of weird thing going on.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Not me packing my fucking park on every flight I go on from this day forward. Right.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
2025 edition it's our first episode it's not the first episode you're listening to in 2025 but it's our first recording from 2025 hey yo it is january 3rd second second yeah it's the second check us out i woke up early i went on a walk on the treadmill this bitch is in her resolution i made breakfast and i never make breakfast i
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Oh, God. At that point, what do you do?
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
That's like, my imagination will not.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
That must be so strange, like so disorienting.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
And then you must be so scared to go in the wrong direction to end up even further lost.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
How long can you go without food? How many days? I got to Google it.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
I can't remember which one is longer.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Yeah. It says, so the body's response to not eating can be broken down into three phases. Phase one, the body uses its stored glucose and glycogen, which usually happens within 24 hours. Then phase two, your body breaks down fat to create glucose and ketone bodies to fuel the brain, which we were just saying these are athletes. They don't have a high body fat percentage.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
And then phase three, the body breaks down muscle tissue to convert amino acids to glucose. This phase is called protein wasting and can be fatal if protein loss is over 50%.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
I love that. I have so many resolutions this year. And I'm going to nail all of them.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
We are. And I feel like I don't, I'm like drawing a blank if you've had a lot of resolutions in the past. I usually don't make, like I'll be like, oh, I'm going to eat healthier.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
And it's also like you're kind of in the perfect equation because they're not only, they're preserved because of the snow.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
And think of the hungriest you've ever been and then multiply that by six gajillion.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
We're about to be chalant as fuck. I got so many just visions for this year. Yeah, and it's not only a new year calendar for you, it's a new year of life for you because it was just Elena's birthday.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
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Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
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Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
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Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
I think that's perfect for families that are on the go all the time. I know Elena's family is like, go, go, go. So she loves those 15-minute meals. And they're freaking tasty. And the other thing is, if you get, like, say you're a family of two like me and Drew, we still get the meals for a family of four so that we have extra meals for extra leftovers that we can eat for lunch. It's genius.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
And I just love HelloFresh. We have been big fans of them forever. Guys, get up to 10 free meals and a free high-protein item for life at HelloFresh.com slash Morbid10FM. One item per box with active subscription. Free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only varies by plan. That's up to 10 free HelloFresh meals. Just go to HelloFresh.com slash Morbid10FM.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
HelloFresh is America's number one meal kit. Let's face it, after a night with drinks, you don't bounce back the next day like you used to. You have to make a choice. Either have a great night or have a great next day. That is, until I heard about Z-Biotics pre-alcohol. Their probiotic was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
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Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
For my girlies who like to have a little drinky drink, I totally recommend this. I recommend this to my friends and people I love. Go to zbiotics.com slash morbid to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use morbid at checkout. Zbiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee, so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Remember to head to zbiotics.com slash morbid and use the code morbid at checkout for 15% off. Thank you, Zbiotics, for sponsoring this episode and our good times.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
I'm just thinking, like I said, of the hungriest I've ever been and then multiplying it to like the nth degree.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Yeah. It's the year of like greatness.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
And to know if you die out here, you're going to be eaten.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
I was wondering what they ended up using.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
No, you made the New York Times bestsellers list.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Literally trucked up a mountainside.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
We were swimming through the weeds, baby.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
I felt like I was like waitressing again.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
So not only did these people survive the wildest plane crash of all time, but now they've been hit by a motherfucking avalanche.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
And all of the bodies, which is their food source, is now buried under how much snow?
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
You must question absolutely everything.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Of course, yeah. This year, though, this year is going to be fucking awesome.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Hell yeah. No bad. No poopoo caca. No poopoo caca.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Even I feel like I can't breathe just hearing this.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
These people must have been lifelong friends after this.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Oh, my. How did they not get hypothermia?
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
I started listening to The Secret, and I know it's like super woo, but I'm into it, okay? Yeah. I love that. I think everyone should listen to it. That's perfect. Yeah, I'm only speaking about the things I want and the things I will have.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
All I can do right now is think of the beginning of this episode when I was like, I woke up early and took a walk on my treadmill. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. These people are like, I survived a plane crash, two avalanches and hiked outside of mountains that I don't even know where they were. Yeah. With no equipment. And I complain about like waking up early.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Dude, that just makes you believe that the universe fucking works for you. A ski kit with poles. It's the secret. That's wild. In its purest form. They said, we're getting out of here. We're going to figure it out. We're going to build up our stamina. It didn't sound like they were negative in any way whatsoever. No.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
There's a lot in life that feels like it should be guaranteed, but it just isn't. Things like your friends being on their way when they text you LMW or getting out the same number of socks from the dryer that you put in. AT&T is introducing a new guarantee, the AT&T Guarantee, because there's a lot in life that's not guaranteed.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
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Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
I cannot wait to hear about the lives that they led afterwards.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
That's insane. That just shows you how absolutely fucking determined they were.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
That hair toss. She just whipped her hair out and she said, with that being said, and then she got comfy to tell the story.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
If you've ever been altitude sick, ugh.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
I can't even imagine what that would feel like.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
So you immediately have to take a layer off. I was immediately sweating. Toss your curls.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
People gonna motherfucking people. Oh my God. Can you imagine?
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Imagine what that bread must have tasted like.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
And they must have been losing some kind of hope at that point.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Climbing hundreds of feet every single day.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
The fact that that didn't even register in my brain after everything these people have been through. This guy offers to get in a helicopter.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
That's a fucking king right there. If he wanted to, he would.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Like you said, we're full of vitamins and nutrients.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Any money you access plus tips are automatically repaid from your next paycheck. I feel like this is so perfect because you know when you're low on cash, that's when these unexpected things pop up. Maybe an unexpected trip to the vet, God forbid. Maybe just like upcoming rent and you just forgot about it.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Like he was just like, I don't need to talk about it because it probably didn't sink in for all of them.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
And they probably were like, we're out of there now, and we don't really want to think about it that much again.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
yearly shut the fuck up and i have never been happier to hear something like that i was like fuck yeah you do i love that like that's a bond that no one other than those 14 14 to 16 people yeah like that's could ever understand i'm just i can't imagine like imagine being in that room
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
And reminiscing, like, remember when you breathed your hot breath onto me to keep me alive?
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
That is one of the gnarliest stories I've ever heard in my life.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
And I had heard of that one. And, of course, I mainly just heard that, like, they ate each other to stay alive.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
But wow, I did not know the details.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
A plane crash and two motherfucking avalanches.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
In the middle of absolutely nowhere. Yep. Wow. Like... And then the guy throwing them the bread.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
We're about to tackle everything we ever dreamed of.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
I'm going home to play my fucking electric keyboard. I'm going to figure that shit out. Hell yeah. If those people can figure out how to fucking hike thousands of miles out of a valley in the middle of the Andes, I can learn the G chords. Fuck yeah, you can. Let's go, brother. Fuck yeah, you can. Wow. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
I was going to say, I feel like that today, in today's money, that would be a lot.
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
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Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Subject to your available earnings location, daily max and pay period max. See earnin.com slash TOS for details. Earnin is a financial technology company, not a bank. Bank products are issued by Evolve Bank and Trust member FDIC. Have you ever grown tired of searching for your favorite movies and TV shows across numerous streaming accounts?
Morbid
Episode 638: The Crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571
Can I just say I give you so much credit for telling this story as somebody with a fear of flying.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
Hey weirdos, before we unleash today's macabre mystery, we were wondering, have you ever heard of Wondery Plus? It's like a secret passage to an ad-free lair with early access to episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
I know she literally said that. So I'm sitting here. I'm like, what is it going to be? What is it? Dishes rattling six miles away.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
And they had no idea. And then, so when you're on a ship that's like on the surface of the water, obviously, do they have things where they can track if there's submarines that are watching them from like a certain distance? They do now have like sonar and stuff like that.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
Like the Japanese were tracking them, but they couldn't track them back.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
It's scary. That's so chilling. You're right.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
Oh, man. Well, I love U.S. history, so I'm interested.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
Holy shit. We all have routines that bring us calm in a chaotic and often scary world. For me, it is arming my Simply Safe home security system. When I'm heading out every morning or locking up each night, that simple step does more than just protect my family and my home. It gives me peace of mind. With Simply Safe, I sleep more soundly and I leave the house with way more confidence.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
It's really actually amazing how one small push of a button can have such a big impact. I feel so safe knowing that the cameras are going to catch everything, that they have that active guard outdoor protection. We're going to talk about that in a second. That gives me mega peace of mind.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
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Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
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Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
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Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
Oh. I haven't seen Jaws in so long. Jaws is a... It's iconic. It's not really a movie that like I've ever rewatched, I feel like.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
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Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
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Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
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Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
You also have to think this man literally just woke up to a giant fucking explosion.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
I became obsessed with like this, like watching all the Jaws movies one summer with my stepmom. It was a very interesting time to start because we were like going to the beach all the time. Yeah, you know, that's a great time. I remember specifically going to a lake and my sister being so fucking terrified of Jaws and me and my brother being like, there's no sharks in the lake, Lauren.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
That's the thing that you think of. Like, okay, now they're just abandoning ship and going into like life rafts. Sitting ducks in the middle of the water. That's so scary.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
Also, think about the fact that this was so many people's first mission.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
But some of those movies are scary. They are. They're crazy. One of them, the shark is, like, sentient, though. Oh, yeah, it gets wily. It's kind of, like, psychic. Yeah, I've never seen past the first one.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
Oh, God, I can't even imagine that in my fucking head, never mind seeing it in front of you. It churns my stomach. Like, the water literally just swallows the boat that you were just on. And I should not say the boat, the fucking ship. Like, dude.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
No, I just, I'm a purist. The second one is fun. And I think the third one is when the shark literally, like, knows people's movements, like, while they're on land.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
Wow. That's really that's crazy that in 1930 they had that kind of technology.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
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Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
The PTSD that these survivors must have had. Unfathomable. How do you even treat that level of PTSD? Like, truly. The trauma. Yeah. Just seeing multiple of your crew members and friends and multiple sharks shooting up through the surface. Well, and to show you how...
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
that's a g right there that's a that's a human that's a fucking friend because he was like we're gonna get out of this like i know you're terrorist right now but we're gonna get out of this you gotta keep a circle around you that you know after a sink a sinking you go down with a sinking ship you survive that there's sharks attacking you everywhere and you are at your wits motherfucking end you better surround yourself with friends that will rescue you every goddamn every time you give up and you should never doubt that your friends will do that for you yeah
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
And then you're just watching sharks eat your sinking friends.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
Like, that's the kind of thing that you, these are the kinds of things, like, we didn't talk about this in school.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
And these are the kinds of things they need to tell you about.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
Picture a thousand sharks. I can't. Picture one motherfucking thousand sharks. And that you're just a sitting duck in the water. I can't even picture 20 sharks without shitting myself.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
Absolutely. Because like you said, they just, they go to the fucking depths of the ocean and then they shoot all the way up.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
Oh, it's so scary. I'm never getting on a boat again. Fuck that.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
Oh, that might be it. I don't know. Charles McVeigh sounds familiar to me.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
I know. Fuck. That literally brought tears to my eyes.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
Can you imagine if they survived all of that and then were accidentally bombed by their own men? Fuck.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And this is Morbid.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
And just probably sitting there questioning if this is real.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
That's the thing. They probably thought they were.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
Barbenheimer? Barbenheimer? Barbieheimer? Op and Barbie? Op and Arby? We're just like free-flowing thoughts right now. It's like that when you play that game where you're both trying to get to the same word. And you just yell your conscious thoughts.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
To have that man man his crew the way he did and survive all of that?
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
Or just screaming the right way to say it. I apologize. Listen, you have these moments with your friends too, okay? You do, and we're friends here.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
But a little different. Different. Long, harrowing, and different are the themes of today's morbid. Long, harrowing, and different. And repeating each other.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
I remember learning about that in school and just how fucking chilling that is. It's so chilling. It's also just like... It's very chilling. Is that necessary? It's just very chilling. War gets cray.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
That's so scary. Yeah. Those are the things that you don't think about during war. Yeah, you don't. You know, like as somebody not... As like a civilian.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
For months and months and months. And what? Sometimes he just didn't know where he was.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
They do, because even, I think, like, we were lucky, like, Papa and, like, your dad.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
And six miles away, they could pick up on dishes rattling? I do wonder if, like, they put something, like, a precaution into place. Like, between the dishes to... Well, like, and now that they, like, when they found out that that was how they got tracked, I wonder if now things are done differently.
Morbid
Episode 655: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis
If you're in the Navy at all, write in and let us know, because now I'm so interested.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Hey weirdos, it's Ash. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about the spooky perks of Wondery Plus. It's like having a skeleton key that unlocks ad-free listening and early access to new episodes. So don't wait, try Wondery Plus today. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
From there, they followed the blood trail back to the primary bedroom, which had been completely ransacked. Like, it looked like somebody had been looking for something in particular in a big hurry. And while it was a mess, they couldn't help but notice that there was no rhyme or reason to the chaos.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So they thought it was possible that Carol was attacked, like, maybe, like I always say, some kind of robbery gone wrong. That seems staged, though. But... It felt way too staged, they thought. And on top of that, nothing appeared to be missing.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I mean, they just found her diamond ring by the front door. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So there was ample evidence of a struggle, obviously, having occurred throughout several rooms in the house. And it seemed like Carol had fought back or at least tried very hard to get away. But despite that, they couldn't really determine the sequence of events and they really couldn't tell where the assault had actually started. Yeah, because it seems like chaos.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
It's chaos and everything is just a mess. And it kind of just looked like once the attack started, the attacker and the victim ran all throughout the house in several rooms and probably even doubled back actually more than once. So they canvassed the houses or the house on both sides of the street for several blocks.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But other than the Nelsons and the Pearsons, nobody had seen or heard anything out of the ordinary that morning. Given the time of day, a lot of families had gone their separate ways by the time the attack would have happened and wouldn't be back until like late that evening. That's true. It's like work, school, errands, all that stuff. Wow. That's incredible. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
That's K-A-C-H-A-V-A.com slash morbid. What a year it's been, you guys. I know that I have a lot to celebrate and a lot to give myself credit for. Honestly, the past few years have been pretty tough, especially for me and Elena, and it feels like a good time to step back and, you know, look at your life in this moment and and commemorate it with something beautiful, something sparkly even.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So while they were in the process of searching the home, Carol's husband, T. Eugene Cotton Thompson, so his name is T. Eugene Thompson, but he's better known as Cotton. Cotton Weary. That's what I thought. That's what I think of. While the detectives were searching the home, he arrives home. Cotton arrives home. He had been at his law office downtown when he got a call shortly after 9 a.m.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
from the Nelson's son, Sidney, saying that there had been an accident involving Carol. Sidney didn't tell him too much because obviously he's like, you have to drive here.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And nobody even knows exactly. So he just said there was an accident. By the time Cotton got the call, Carol was on her way to Anchor Hospital. But instead of going directly to the hospital, Cotton drove back home and actually even stopped briefly at the Nelsons' house before then going back to his own house. Which was definitely a little weird. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And, like, I'm sure you're not thinking straight, but it was something that people took note of. For sure. I can understand that. Yeah. So he told the police he had left the house that morning around 7.30, and he was taking his son Jeffrey to school, and then he went to his office. Okay. So typical morning. And also a well-trekked alibi. Uh-huh.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Around 8.30, he called the house to confirm with Carol that he would be picking up the kids at school. And he said, other than that, that was the last time he had spoken to her. He said, at that time, nothing seemed out of the ordinary. She didn't sound distressed. Nothing.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But by the time they finished the search of the house, detectives had actually discovered very little in the way of evidence and they really didn't have any leads to indicate what exactly happened in this house. Obviously, the attack had carried out through multiple rooms covering the walls, the curtains, the rugs, everything in blood. But as for why and how it all happened, they were at a loss.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But based on all the evidence, they theorize that Carol had been hit at least once with a piece of large, heavy rubber tubing, which they found on the kitchen floor. But they believe that she was also likely assaulted with the butt of a gun because the handle of which was broken in the process, leaving all these shards of plastic by the door.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah. And she also sustained several stab wounds from what they concluded was a small paring knife. Holy shit. And that's the handle that they discovered by the front door. Damn. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I love the burr months, December, November, all the burr months because they're so cozy.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
For some, wrapping up in a blanket with a mug of hot chocolate or, you know, watching a movie with a family is the best way to spend the month of December. You know what is another great way? Therapy. Therapy is a great way to bring yourself some comfort that never goes away, even when the season changes. I love therapy. I think therapy is awesome. I have benefited so much from it.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So many life lessons and just like major breakthroughs I have made in therapy have shaped me into who I am today. So if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And all you have to do is fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Find comfort this December with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash morbid today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash morbid. Audible's best of 2024 picks are here.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
In all seriousness, if you're thinking of buying jewelry, there really is no better place to do it than BlueNile.com. Whether you're looking for a bit of special sparkle for yourself or to give the best holiday gift to somebody you love, your mom, your wife, your partner, whoever.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Discover the year's top audiobooks, podcasts, and originals all in your favorite genres. From memoirs and sci-fi to mysteries and thrillers, from romance and well-being to fiction, Audible's carefully curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best of the year in audio entertainment. Like an almost unbelievably star-studded production of George Orwell's 1984,
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
which both honors and reinvigorates the terrifying classic. It's one of the best original dramatizations that we have ever heard, or romance that hits the spot, like Emily Henry's funny story, heartfelt memoirs like Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's lovely one, listen to the year's best fiction like The Women by Kristen Hanna, and Percival Everett's brilliantly subversive James.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Personally, I think a best of the year is Elena Urquhart's The Butcher and the Wren and The Butcher Game. Ooh, ooh! Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com slash morbid and discover all the year's best waiting for you, like my sister's titles.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So while they are still searching through the house and trying to figure out what the fuck happened here, doctors at Anchor Hospital did their best to stabilize a badly injured but still alive Carol. She had 25 separate cuts on her head from a blunt object, and several of those cuts had caused a, quote, skull fracture, brain hemorrhage, and contusions on the brain. This is so vicious.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
It's vicious. And she also had two stab wounds in her neck. When she got to the hospital, she was completely unconscious and was, quote, without measurable blood pressure. Yeah. Surgeons did their best to revive her, performing a tracheotomy. They also did an external heart massage, which I've never even actually heard of.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
heard of that that's when they literally like with their they will literally get the heart pumping with their like physically pump the heart i didn't even know that was an option or like a thing surgeons are wild and they also did um what's called a trepanation and that was to relieve the pressure on her brain because i think she had she had like bleeding like the skull yeah exactly but their efforts were futile unfortunately and she was pronounced dead a few minutes before 1 p.m
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
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Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
That's awful. Which when you think about that, she arrived on the doorstep around 9 that morning, like so badly attacked. She lived until 1 p.m. 1 p.m. Like she fought hard. She must have been in agony though.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
You just hope that she wasn't since she was unconscious.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah. So in 1963, violent home invasions were pretty rare in the U.S., and especially in the middle of the day in a middle class neighborhood. This is not something that happened a lot. And when it did happen, the motive was typically robbery. But in this case, nothing had been stolen.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And aside from the bedroom, it really didn't even seem like the killer had gone through the Thompson's belongings at all. It kind of seemed like whoever attacked Carol had gone to the house to do exactly that. And given the amount of violence done to her, the objective clearly seemed to be murder. But the question that they had to ask was who would have wanted Carol Thompson dead?
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So going back a little ways, Carol was born and raised in St. Paul and she had spent her entire life there. Like she's lived her entire life there. She was really well-liked. She was a mother of four. She was super, super active in her kids' lives. She was the den mother for her son's Boy Scout troop. She was a leader of her daughter's Brownie troop.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And when she wasn't coordinating the lives of four really, really active children, she was organizing events at their church. She was the president of the Women's Association, a member of the church choir, and she even taught a kindergarten class.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And she also, on top of all that, I think I mentioned it later, she was taking classes, too. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I'm like, that's... That's wild. That's a lot. Exactly. She was liked by everybody and she had all that going for her. So the police are at a loss. You're like, who the fuck did this? Who doesn't like Carol? Everybody does.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Exactly. She's not getting into organized crime here or something, I assume. No, not at all. No, she's not. So frustrated by the lack of evidence and any leads at the scene, investigators started questioning the family and the neighbors. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
As a criminal defense lawyer, detectives actually had to wonder if one of Cotton's previous clients had been maybe disgruntled and wanted to get back at him by targeting his wife.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah, but I mean, it happens, so I can see why they started there. And Cotton handed over a list of previous clients, but he also insisted that he couldn't think of a single one of them who had been dissatisfied with his legal services enough to act personally.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
like that you know like do something I mean I feel like you would have an idea if somebody was that disgruntled definitely because you would think that there would be like steps leading up to that you would at least feel like you know what this guy was really angry and like I could and he's dangerous and probably got maybe like made like a verbal threat at the very least you know
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So investigators also started digging into Carol's background, of course. And in a lot of ways, she was pretty, I don't want to say ordinary, but like she led an ordinary life. Like nothing stuck out to them. Yeah. According to friends, she was very much an extrovert, much known and much loved by everyone, they said.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Other friends described her as somebody who was, quote, interested in everything and constantly learning.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I know, she seems like... I love people like that, that just want to keep doing stuff. Yeah, I feel like Carol seems like somebody we definitely would have gotten along with. One friend told a reporter she was always trying to gain more knowledge.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
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Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And in fact, like I mentioned earlier, the reason that Cotton had planned to pick up the kids from school that afternoon was because Carol was taking night classes and she had plans to go to class that evening. Yeah, on top of everything else she's doing, she was going to a class. Now, by most accounts, too, Carol and Cotton's marriage had been a good one.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
They always seemed happy together, people said. People said they were an anchor in the neighborhood. They were organizing parties all the time, events all the time. Jeez. Like, things looked really good from the outside. Yeah. Carol met Cotton when she was a sophomore in college. And 10 months later, she dropped out of school and they got married.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And then a few months later, Carol got pregnant with their first child. And she really started on her career as a wife and a mother, which was very of the time. This is the 60s. For sure. And she approached that with the same enthusiasm that she did everything in life. She was super excited, like fully devoted to everything, kids and husband.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Like, even more than whole-assed, if that's possible. Yeah. In the public and even in the press, too, she was described as the pinnacle of a 1960s housewife. But in private conversations... I was waiting for a but.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Because I was like, you can't tell me this is just the way it is. No.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
In private conversations... The interesting thing is, I'll tell you what happens, but it's not even that... Like, on Carol's end, you're like...
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
i don't know like it really doesn't explain this necessarily in private conversations with friends and neighbors detectives were starting to develop a little bit of a different picture of carol it was true she was a very devoted mother but not everybody believed that she had abandoned her own dream so willingly and not everybody was convinced that carolyn cotton's marriage was a good one
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And she still has this love of learning, obviously. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
That's the thing. But obviously it was just rumors. But some of the women in the neighborhood speculated that while she might not have been having a full blown affair, Carol did have a friend that everybody referred to as Big Red. Whoa. Who seemed more interested and attentive of Carol than was considered appropriate at the time. Oh.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Nobody said they saw them doing anything like scandalous or anything. But he seemed to like Carol. He seemed to pay a lot of attention to her. Well, that's not her fault. No. And she's beautiful. If you look at the picture, it makes sense. So investigators soon learned that Big Red's real name was Kenneth Morin. He was a local man in his early 30s.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
He met Cotton and Carol when he sold them some windows and doors about a year earlier. And he and Carol shared a lot of interests, so not long after meeting, Kenneth kind of became part of their social circle. According to him, he and Carol would visit museums together, go to galleries. Sometimes he would drive Carol and the kids places when cotton was unavailable.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But he insisted they were just friends. There was nothing more to it. And he claimed he actually hadn't seen Carol since the previous November and didn't know anything about her murder. He also had an alibi for the day of the murder, which was confirmed by his boss. So he was quickly ruled out as a suspect.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I think they definitely like thought the other was attractive probably. And like I think it was also really tough to have a friend of the opposite sex at that time. I was going to say this is such a different time too. And especially in like a small town and a close-knit community. For sure.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I think they probably were just really good friends who like maybe found each other attractive, but it doesn't really sound like across the line at all. Okay. So even though they had ruled out Kenneth Morin as a suspect, his presence in Carol's life definitely contributed to an emerging portrait of probably an unhappy woman in an unhappy marriage to some degree. I can absolutely see that. Yes.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Like, you know. And in fact, further interviews with friends and neighbors revealed that Carol's relationship with Kenneth was a source of frustration for her husband Cotton. And one afternoon in November, he got home and he found Carol and Kenneth just talking in the backyard and demanded, he walked back out there and demanded that Kenneth leave and not come back.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Like he was, I think he was starting to probably hear people talking and I'm sure. Yeah. His pals were teasing him, that kind of thing. So he was like, stay the fuck away from my wife.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Well, Mike, and this is just me like to each their own. But if I knew that Drew had a close woman friend that he was like driving our kids around, I'd be like, I'm not super comfortable. Yeah, I too would have a problem with that. You know what I mean? Yeah. So for her part, Carol told a friend and this kind of explains what you were wondering earlier.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
She said, quote, she did not dislike Kenneth and was attracted to him, but loved only her husband and children. So she was like, yeah, he's handsome and I like being around him, but I only love my kids and my husband. She just sounds like the purest, like truly. Yeah, she really does.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Now, the other thing was the blow up in the backyard had resulted in Cotton becoming more attentive to her and the kids, which she appreciated. She's like, you know, I got a little fire under his butt. She's like, I miss Kenneth, like he was cool to hang out with, but this kind of worked out. Yeah, it was great.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
It was a testament to Carol's popularity, too, that so many people were willing to cooperate with investigators. and that they were offering whatever insight they had to her character. But their descriptions of her life and personality, even the gossip, really didn't do much to point them in the direction of a killer.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
If anything, the interviews just confirmed detectives' earlier feeling that Carol Thompson was the last person anybody would have wanted to see dead. Yeah. Or murdered, even worse. Like everyone on the outside of her life seemed to really like her. Yeah, like she didn't really have a problem with anything. She wasn't beefing. With anyone.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So in the absence of new leads, investigators turned their attention back to Cotton, of course, the husband, who did look particularly suspicious after detectives discovered multiple life insurance policies.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Life insurance policies in Carol's name from multiple different insurance companies.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah. Yeah. Like... What? About a week after the murder, it came to light that there were two term life insurance policies in Carol's name, three accidental death policies in her name, and three group term life insurance policies covering each member of the family, all totaling more than a million dollars in coverage back then, which today would be $10 million. Holy shit. More than $10 million.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah, 100%. Yeah. So there's eight. Wow. Eight insurance policies. That's bonkers. Like, that's insane. That goes crazy. That goes absolutely bonkers. The news of the policies obviously caused quite a stir amongst those who knew the family. As it should. Since that much coverage seemed pretty fucking excessive by any measure. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
In his statement to the press, Ramsey County Attorney William Randall told reporters, Thompson is the applicant for a beneficiary of the policies, which are due to expire next month. Oh. Yeah. Are you telling me? I'm telling you. This piece of fucking shit. Yeah, he did something.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And I hope you ate all kinds of yummy food. Ooh, scrumdiddlyumptious. I'm salivating just thinking of our food that we're going to eat.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So the discovery raised some new questions about Carol's death, and investigators obviously wanted to talk more with Cotton. But rather than address the matter with the police privately, Cotton Thompson released his own statement to the press via his friend, Douglas Young. Douglas. He didn't even go do it for himself. He had his friend do it. Don't involve Doug. Yeah, don't involve Douglas.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Come on. In the statement, Young laid out a detailed tally of the insurance policies in Carroll's name, and he included many, many lengthy specifics about the payouts and the purchase prices, just like a very unusual amount of information that most people wouldn't understand or really give much of a shit about.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah, it's a great way to confuse people and make them not want to think that you're the guy. It was strategic, for sure. Yeah. Now, as for why he purchased so much insurance, Cotton said, we had no debt bills or indebtedness to speak of, and we felt that we could readily afford up to up to $200 a month on insurance as to each of us. It's like, how do you have like 55,000 insurance policies?
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
That's the thing. Like I get like having a life insurance policy. Absolutely. But I don't understand having eight. Yeah. I don't understand that. I'm also like, damn, like you got really good deals on those. Yeah. According to Cotton, they did have the children in mind when they purchased the insurance and they just, he said they hadn't intended to keep it beyond the children aging into adulthood.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Why do you have eight? There's six family members, six policies, the end. And I'm pretty sure one policy can cover multiple people. Yeah. I don't know. That could be wrong, but. Well, it's like, why? I just, I don't know. Like, that just, it seems excessive. It absolutely does. So the explanation seemed kind of reasonable, even if the number of policies and coverage were excessive.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
People were willing to look past it a little bit. Yeah, I mean, it's not totally out of the realm of normality, but it's still excessive to me. It raises your eyebrows. It does. But what investigators still found unusual was that Cotton also hadn't been forthcoming about the insurance policies when they asked him immediately after Carol's death. He didn't say anything about these. They found them.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Which it's like... That's a little weird. That's real weird. When they ask you and you're just like, I don't know. But at the same time, you're like... But you also know it's going to make you look bad. You know it's going to sound bad. And remember, he's an attorney.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
It's going to be a whole thing, guys. It's so beautiful. You know what I'm thankful for? Sushi. There you go. I just had some. Good for you, man. And you had a strawberry hostess cupcake. I did. Have you guys tried those? I didn't know they existed. She broke it out and it's me, her, and Mikey in the pod lab today. And she said, we can split this into three. And I said, no need. No need to do so.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I think he thought that he was smarter than everybody else.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah. And they also thought it was weird that when the details of the policies came to light, he chose to send a prepared statement to the press instead of just talking to the detectives who were working on his wife's murder case. Yeah, that tells you a lot. You know? In fact, according to the St.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Paul Police Department and the county attorney's office, neither received a copy of the statement that had been given to the press, and they only learned about it when it hit papers on the morning of March 27th. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, that shady behavior. So they didn't see any of that coming. And then there's this like lengthy ass statement. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So the original policies appeared to have actually been taken out by Carol or at least somebody who signed Carol's name to the form.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But investigators decided to send the documents to the FBI for handwriting analysis to confirm that it actually was Carol's handwriting. And in the meantime, they continued their investigation, but openly admitted that they had really made very little progress in the weeks following the murder.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Police Chief Lester McAuliffe said, we have a great deal of circumstantial evidence, but the case isn't complete by any means. We need a break to crack the case. And little did they know that break was a coming. It was going to find them. Oh, no. So in their struggle to make any headway in the case, detectives revisited the scene and revisited the evidence that they found in the home.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
For the most part, the evidence collected from the house was pretty much what you would expect to find from a home, except for the pieces of plastic that were recovered in the pool of blood by the front door. I love gift giving so much. It just like warms my heart to give somebody a really awesome gift that I know they're going to love.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
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Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
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Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
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Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
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Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
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Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
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Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
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Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Get Rocket Money today at rocketmoney.com slash morbid. That's rocketmoney.com slash morbid, rocketmoney.com slash morbid. In the days that followed the murder, investigators theorized that that plastic had come from the hand of a pistol, which the intruder obviously used to beat Carol.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
That caused the pistol grip to break and fall on the floor and that's where the plastic came from. But the problem was they didn't have the gun that the pistol grip had come from and they actually weren't even sure what kind of gun it was at all. Wow. So they didn't have a lot to go on.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But despite the lack of information, they held a televised press conference where they showed those broken pieces of the pistol grip and they asked for the public's help identifying the weapon. And within a week, the St. Paul police got a call from a man named Wayne Brandt. He was a St.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Paul salesman who claimed that the gun they were looking for was his 7.65 millimeter Luger pistol, which had been stolen from his apartment on February 14th, just a few weeks before the murder.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
He was certain that this gun was his because he actually recognized the pistol grip as one he made for himself in a shop class.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I felt like it wouldn't mix well with my sushi and dumplings. Probably not. I was like, I think I'll try that at a later date if ever. That's a great, I think you should try it because I think you might be pleasantly surprised. Okay. But not with sushi. Right now I'm in a place of those Little Debbie brownie Christmas tree things, cakes. Oh, yeah. I'm actually not a big fan. Don't you say it.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah, several years earlier. According to him, the gun was one of several items stolen from his apartment along with a television, a diamond ring, and a typewriter. Poor guy. Wow. Stealing all the shit.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I know. I can't imagine. And good for him for being like, yeah, that's mine because some people wouldn't.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Right? We love a good Samaritan. Yeah. So a few days later and by chance, a lot of things in this case just came together by chance, which I like to believe is my girl Carol up there.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yes. So police arrested a man named Willard Ingram during a holdup, like during a legit holdup. Ingram had a long criminal history and he was actually willing to provide information about other crimes in exchange for leniency with the whole holdup case. Oh. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Oh, shit.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
The sisterhood of the traveling gun. It's about to go crazy. You have no idea. Oh, man. There are so many people involved in this. It blew my mind. So he steals the gun, but then he gives it to his friend Norman. Yes. So Norman Mastrian was a 40-year-old former prizefighter with mob ties. Oh. And he was mostly known to St. Paul police for kind of like a series of petty crimes.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
That was until he became the prime suspect in a 1962 kidnapping and murder of a local bar owner.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah. Investigators actually hadn't been able to find enough evidence to convict him for the murder, and he was let go. But pretty much everybody agreed he was the killer. Holy shit. They just didn't have enough. He's just walking. So on the morning of April 19th, a group of detectives knocked on his door with a warrant for his arrest, but he refused to let them in or come outside.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
He wasn't letting them in and he wasn't going out there. That's not shady at all. No. So after speaking with the county attorney, the detectives were actually given the authority to take him by force. So they kicked down his door and they put him under arrest without further incident, luckily. Now, once they were at the station, he said he didn't know anything about Carol's murder.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
He refused to say anything more without a lawyer. Now, obviously, this was frustrating. But by then, investigators had already found a second witness. Shut up. A man named Henry Butler, who was now in custody pending trial for a robbery.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Criminals are everywhere. Criminals in your hair. You'd be criminaling. Everybody stays criminal in this time of St. Paul. So Henry Butler claimed that he had seen Norman Mastrian in possession of the stolen pistol, but he said he also saw Norman give the gun to another man. Shut up. This gun is changing hands yet again.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And this time it goes to Dick Anderson, yet another criminal who had left town a few days earlier. Well, and this seems shady, too. So the connections that led from Willard Ingram to Norman Mastrian to Henry Butler, those all made sense. They all had very lengthy criminal histories. They were all known to associate with other criminals, like It was like a criminal fucking enterprise.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah, they just stay criminaling. Yeah, they stay criminaling, like you said. But Dick Anderson, on the other hand, he made less sense. He was a twice-wounded military vet who had fallen on really hard times, and he turned to petty burglary just to try to get by. But he seemed to be a far cry from the more hardened criminals that he was currently being associated with.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But once the warrant for Dick Anderson's arrest went out, St. Paul police got a tip from a reporter that he was actually staying at the Tropics Motor Hotel in Phoenix, Arizona. So when Phoenix police arrived at the motel, actually, they found Anderson in the lobby, luggage in hand, ready to check out, presumably to avoid arrest. Whoa. He had definitely been tipped off. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I'm not. Of the vanilla? Of the Christmas tree cakes. Okay. I don't like too much frosting, and the middle is sometimes too much for me. And I fear that you're going to throw something at me. I like the brownie better. Doesn't John also? Yeah. And both of you can get the fuck out of here with your shenanigans.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
It turned out that the fucking reporter who gave the tip to police about him being in Phoenix in the first place actually conducted a phone interview with Dick Anderson and let him know that the police were looking for him in relation to this murder and this whole slew of shady characters.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Exactly. What are you doing? Like, you're playing both sides. I know what he's looking for. He's looking for a byline. Exactly. Exactly. So Anderson told the reporter that he was only in Phoenix for a few days for vacation and that he didn't know anybody named Norman Mastrian. He didn't know anybody named Henley Butler or Willard Ingram.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
He repeated these denials to the Phoenix police once he was arrested. Wow. Yeah. He then said, Okay. This murdered woman is a big stink. Is a big stink here? I would say so. Yeah. So while detectives in St.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Paul waited on Anderson's extradition hearing, they started interviewing his friends, including the man who had actually been arrested with him in Phoenix, a man named Richard Sharp, another character.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Like Anderson and the others, Sharp was an own criminal. He had actually fled to Arizona with Anderson to avoid prosecution for a recent burglary that he was involved in.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But like the others, he was willing to exchange information in order to get leniency on his own shit. So in a 23-page statement given to the police, Sharp told investigators that Dick Anderson was lying. He said Dick Anderson actually was the one who murdered Carol Thompson.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And that he needed Sharp to contact the quote-unquote payoff man on his behalf. Shut up. He was waiting for his money. According to the statement, Anderson told Sharp that Norman Mastrian had paid him $3,000 to kill Carol Thompson. What? Yeah, so it literally just all went full circle. Holy crap.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Now, investigators actually did find that Norman Mastrian had paid Dick Anderson to kill Carol Thompson. But what they couldn't figure out was why some small-time criminal with mob ties would want a St. Paul housewife dead.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But it's just like, how did it end up here? Right. So they're sitting there trying to figure out exactly what you just said, and they get another lucky break when they arrest yet another motherfucking criminal, Sheldon Morris, who was a local cab driver and friend of Norman Mastrian's, who claimed he knew where Dick Anderson had disposed of the rest of the pistol that they were still looking for.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
The stolen pistol. Shit. Under threat of prosecution as a co-conspirator in the murder at this point, Sheldon Morris led detectives to a remote location in the woods where the gun had been tossed. Wow. And they found it. Shut up! Yes. So now with the murder weapon in their possession and the murder suspect on his way to St.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Paul from Arizona, investigators were really close to closing the case on Carol Thompson's murder. They knew that Norman Mastrian had received the murder weapon from Willard Ingram. He's the one who stole it in the first place. So Willard Ingram breaks into the house of the man who had made this pistol. And then he gives it to Norman Mastrian. And then Norman Mastrian gives it to Dick Anderson.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
They literally started with next to nothing, and they asked the public for help, and this guy thankfully comes forward and is like, yes, that is my gun, but it was stolen. But to pull that thread. And then they track down four or five different criminals and local criminals in the area. Exactly. That's what I mean.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And crazy how like all of these people were willing to turn on each other because they all, they lucked out because they all had cases that they were facing. That they wanted to get, yeah. That they wanted leniency on, exactly. So it was just like lucky strike after lucky strike.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
You know what? I don't dislike them. I'll eat one every now and again. I'm horrified. But if I had to pick on a deserted island, you can only have one brownies all the way. I hate that. I'd also pick brownies over cake in general. Wow. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So they knew all of this now, but they were still missing the last piece of the puzzle that would, you know, wrap this entire story together, make it make sense. Yeah. They needed to know who hired Norman Mastrian in the first place because he didn't know Carol. Why would he want her dead? Where is this coming from?
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So just like they had done earlier, detectives went back to the basics of the case, and they looked for anything that would connect Norman Mastrian to the Thompson family. And that's when they found that list of previous clients that Cotton had given them at the start of this whole investigation. And, of course, it included a familiar name, Norman Mastrian. So there's no disgruntled former client.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Nope. It was a client that you felt so comfortable with. Precisely. Pre-fucking-cisely. Oy. So after Mastrian was arrested that previous year on the suspicion of the kidnapping and the murder, he consulted with Cotton Thompson about potentially suing the county for false arrest. Even though everybody was pretty convinced that he did this, he was so ballsy that he was willing to sue the county.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Luckily, the suit never went forward, but it was the only connection they could find between the two of them.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
The last piece of the puzzle finally fell into place when St. Paul detectives were able to get Dick Anderson back in custody in Minnesota. Because remember, he was in Phoenix, but they sent him on over.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Now, for some reason, I have such trouble with the word extradited. Extradited. Like, I can say it in a conversation, but when I look at it, I can't say it how I'm supposed to. I have words like that, too. Yeah, it's so weird. So they get him back. Initially, he stuck to his story. He denied knowing anything about the murder. He didn't know any of these people. Why am I even here? Who, me?
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I didn't steal the cookie from the cookie jar. No. Not me. That's literally all I could think of the entire time I was going through this. He's just like, nope, we're on the same page. But by late June, he finally broke down and confessed and told them everything they wanted to know.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
According to Dick Anderson, he had been hired by Norman Mastrian to kill Carol, but it was Cotton Thompson who had arranged the entire hit.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Her husband. According to Dick Anderson, he'd been given instructions to sneak into the house through the side door before dawn and wait in the basement until everybody had left the house.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Exactly. Dick Anderson doesn't have mob ties. It's Norman Mastrian who has mob ties. Dick Anderson.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Who knew? There's so many people involved in this that it's so hard to keep track of everybody. But he really is the last person that they would have expected. Yeah, he's the one that they were like, why is this guy connected to all this? He's literally like a military vet, like not tied up in the mob, not tied up in just petty shit. Exactly.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So, yeah, he has this guy just fucking sit in his basement while his kids are getting ready to go off to school. And his wife is, you know, preparing him for the day. This guy he doesn't know. Has no idea what he's capable of. Yeah. Yep. Wow. It's so messed up.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So the plan was that Cotton would make a phone call to the house once he got to work, which would be Dick Anderson's signal to act because he would hear the phone ring. And then he would know that everybody except Carol was out of the house.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So that morning, Cotton filled the bathtub with six or seven inches of water, and the plan was for Dick Anderson to strike Carol on the back of the head with a heavy piece of rubber hose, which they hoped would knock her unconscious. And when she'd been disabled, Anderson was to place her body in the bathtub, making it seem like Carol had hit her head getting into the tub and drowned.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Oh, so he really put some thought into this. Oh, he did. Because the accidental death would have triggered the double indemnity clause in several of the insurance policies, thus paying up a higher amount. Oh, so he was hoping this would look like a total accident.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah, it's god-awful what happened to Carol, but it's also like, yeah, that's why you don't hire somebody to murder your fucking wife, dude, because it's not going to work out for you. Nope. But unfortunately, like we just said, things did not go to plan. So after Cotton placed the call to the house, Anderson started going up the stairs from the basement, but the stairs were creaking as he walked.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So he was nervous that the noise was going to give him away. So he waited a minute or two. And during that time, Carol went back upstairs to lay down in bed, which sounds like something she probably never did. Yeah. Because she was so busy all the time. But she just goes back to her own bedroom. Yeah. and Anderson appears in the doorway of her room. Oh, God.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So she panicked, assuming that it was a robbery, and she jumped out of bed, which he then immediately hit her on the back of the head with the hose, but it didn't disable her like they hoped it would. Instead, Carol fought back hard, and she was actually able to knock him to the floor, and she made a break for the stairs.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And she stopped quickly to grab her robe so that she wouldn't run out of the house indecent.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah. Anderson caught up with her in the hallway, but she was able to escape him again, and she ran for the front door. But when she reached the front door, she found that it had been locked with a chain lock.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
When you hear why this was locked, it's going to break your heart. So as she fumbled to get the chain off the door, Dick Anderson obviously caught up with her and pointed the gun at Carol. Now still thinking that she was being robbed, she took her diamond ring off her finger, her wedding ring, and offered it to him. But he responded by pulling the trigger of the gun.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
To both of their surprise, the gun jammed. Sending him into a panic, and that's when he started beating her with the gun so aggressively that the pistol grip broke and fell to the floor.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
It was also at this point that those three rounds from the clip came loose and dropped to the floor, so that's why they found those unspent clips. Now, when the beating didn't appear to have killed Carol, he went to the kitchen and grabbed a paring knife from the door, which he used to stab Carol until the handle broke.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Now, finally convinced that she was dead, he went upstairs to the bathroom where he tried to wash the blood off his hands and arms. And he went to the bedroom to stage the scene to look like a robbery. And while he was staging the scene, he heard a noise downstairs and ran to look by the door. And that's when he saw that Carol was gone. So she most likely actually played dead to make it seem like.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So she could escape out the front door. Like she fought him as hard as she did and then had the whereabouts to pretend she was dead so she could get away. That is horrifying. So panicked when he saw that she was gone, he stopped what he was doing and he fled the house from the kitchen door and got the fuck out of there.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Now, this is gut-wrenching. Years later, Jeff Thompson, Cotton and Carol's son, would recall that on the morning of his mother's murder, his father instructed him to put the chain on the front door before they left for school.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And Jeff even said he thought it was strange because they never chained the door. And he said if it hadn't been locked, obviously his mother would have been able to escape her attacker. He said, I had never done that before. I haven't forgiven my father. And you never should. Never. Fuck that guy. Never. I don't want you to do any of this, but you put that on your fucking son.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
You can't even just go do it. You're making him a part of this.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
To involve your kids like that is so, so messed up. Piece of garbage. So on June 21st, 1963, you will all be very happy to hear detectives arrested Cotton Thompson in connection with the murder, labeling him as the payoff man in the conspiracy. Because remember, they were looking for the payoff man.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
When he appeared before the judge for his arraignment, Cotton, quote, looked haggard, had tears in his eyes, and his voice cracked as he answered the judge's questions. Oh, fuck you and your tears. Yeah, get fucked. The news of Cotton's arrest obviously shocked the friends and neighbors of the Thompson family.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
One neighbor said there was no conflict between the Thompsons recognizable or known to their closest friends. And others recalled how, quote, he and Carol never missed a Sunday taking the kids to church and how Cotton was active with Jeff's scout troop. All of it. Like everybody was shocked.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Even the most obvious mode of the large insurance payout even didn't really make that much sense to everybody. Because remember, he's a successful lawyer. He's making like $40,000 a year back then, which today is more than like $400,000 a year. Yeah, like come on. Yeah, he's like essentially making a doctor salary. Yeah. So it wasn't like he was in desperate need of money.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But in reality, the motive for Carol's murder had pretty much been staring them in the face since the beginning of the investigation. There were so many claims that they were this ideal couple, but it seemed like the neighborhood gossip had been right all along. Cotton and Carol's marriage was on the rocks for a long time.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Author William Swanson said, "...there were all kinds of things that wouldn't jive with Cotton's idea of a wife and mother in 1963." Before they were married, Carol had obviously big dreams and she envisioned a very exciting life for herself. She wanted to go after all her interests, all her passions.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But her marriage and obviously the quick arrival of children pretty much sidelined all of her goals and required that she turn her attention to supporting her husband's ambitions. Yeah. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Exactly. Exactly. But regardless of how she felt about having to prioritize her responsibilities as a wife and mother, like I said in the beginning, she approached all her new responsibilities with like open arms. She was happy to do everything she had to do. And by all accounts, she was a great wife. She was a great mother. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But the longer they were married, people said the more unhappy Carol had become. That author, Swanson, said, Cotton was a tough, self-absorbed character, and soon it became clear that he was intent on doing whatever he wanted whenever he wanted to. He was having affairs with other women, and he was just completely indifferent to Carol's wants, Carol's needs.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
On the bottom of an elephant's foot. Yeah, I would say like he's even lower than that. Yeah. Honestly. Later, their son Jeff would say, I know my mother knew about my dad's affairs. She was saddened by a lot of his behavior, so it would not surprise me if she was to reach out to another person. Oh, that breaks my heart. Which honestly is probably why she was so close with Kenneth Morin. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Like, I'm sure they... Like, she just wanted somebody to be there for her. She needed someone. And it doesn't even really sound like they were having any kind of, like, almost an affair.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah, and, like, of course that other person was Kenneth Morin. They had shared interests together. Yeah. They gave a shit about each other. And... You know, nobody really knows if there was an affair or not. But it seemed pretty obvious to everybody that there was some kind of connection to each other. And that was until Cotton put an end to that relationship.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But the final straw, at least as far as Cotton was concerned, came just one day before Carol was murdered. Apparently that afternoon, seemingly out of nowhere, Carol turned to her daughter Margaret and asked what she would do if she went away for a while. Like, what would you do if mom went away for a while?
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And Jeff Thompson remembered this happening, and he said, Margaret was very surprised and concerned, and the thought was that she was planning on leaving my father. Looking back on it, I hope she was. However, she would have been foolish to tell him. Oh, Jeff. I want to give Jeff a hug. I know, I do too.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Now, nobody knows if Margaret said anything to her father about her mother planning to leave or if he just came to that conclusion on his own. But either way, it seemed that Cotton Thompson knew or strongly suspected that Carol was most likely planning on leaving him.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Exactly. So he quickly made sure, made plans that she would never get out of this marriage. Fuck that guy. Which is... It's like, you don't want to be married either. Yeah. You're... You're going here, there, and everywhere with everyone.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
That's the thing. I'm like, why can't you do it at a certain point? What are you doing with it? Exactly. Why do you need more? You just don't at a certain point.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
That wasn't even here. That's not even here. He just wanted more. Yeah. I'm like, you have four kids. Holy shit. They all are doing what they want to do as far as activities. It sounds like you guys are throwing parties or throwing events. Like, what do you need more for? Why? Fuck that guy.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But after several delays and a change of venue, Cotton Thompson finally went on trial for the murder of his wife on October 27th, 1963. He pleaded innocent, and in his opening statements, prosecutor William Randall laid out the state's theory about Thompson's motive for the murder.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
He said the motive was not only to enable Mr. Thompson to collect the more than $1 million in life insurance he had recently taken out on his wife's life, but also to free him up to see other women.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Just leave. They'd all be better off without you anyways. Wouldn't have got his money, so he wouldn't have been happy.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Seriously. But Randall pointed to Cotton's long history of infidelity. And one particular incident a year earlier where he apparently told his mistress, just give me 11 months, implying that after that time frame he would be able to marry her. Girl. Just give me 11 months.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
to watch fall down semester again you know what though i feel like that would be akin to drew turning to me and telling me that he didn't like bravo all of a sudden and i'd kick him out of our house it's rough and then you sit here and you tell me i didn't say you do not appreciate no no no the vanilla christmas tree you at one point you said i don't really like them you said those words i heard yeah you quoted me correctly that made me upset
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
You sure do. You sure do. Testifying for the prosecution, one of the several insurance agents told the jury about the quote sense of urgency Cotton conveyed to them when he was buying up all of these policies. Eleven months before Carol's death. Come on. Cotton told one agent that he had a quote unquote premonition in which Carol would meet with a tragic accident.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Your gray matter, as public would say. What are you doing? Yeah, he said that was why he was in such a hurry to get all these policies.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Damn. Yeah. No, this is what the defense went with. The defense explained that Cotton was just an eccentric when it came to insurance. No, no. He's just eccentric. No, that's not one of those things. He's just kooky. He just, you know, he just fucking loves insurance. Just loves insurance. You guys know Jake from State Farm? Cotton's kind of like that.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
You know, Cotton, insurance is my kink kind of guy, you know? It's his thing. That's not okay. Nobody's eccentric when it comes to life insurance policies.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Ridiculous. So pointing to the excessive coverage he'd purchased for his home and car, they continued to say he was an eccentric. But he still loves it. Those amounts were also double the average coverage at the time. So he really did put like excess coverage on everything. He is eccentric when it comes to home insurance and life insurance.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But if the urgency and amount of coverage Cotton had purchased on his wife's life weren't compelling enough, the testimony of the state's chief witness, Dick Anderson, definitely gave insight to Cotton's cruelty. Oh, boy. On the stand, Anderson recalled the attack on Carol, and he said, She managed to get out of the tub, so I knew I had trouble.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I was instructed either way, so I went to pull the gun. So Cotton told Dick, no matter what happens, you pull that trigger and you kill her. Wow. He is so fucking cold. I don't care what happens. Yeah. He then explained, Dick explained to the jury in no uncertain times that he had been hired by Norman Mastrian who was hired by Cotton.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Also, according to Anderson, there was supposed to be a second murder. Anderson quoted Norman as telling him, the broad's father will be next in six or seven months.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
What the fuck? They were going to kill Carol's dad as well. Apparently, this was Cotton's plan to gain an even greater access to Carol's family fortune, which she would have inherited upon her father's death.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
i am so if she's dead and her father dies cotton and kids get everything so this guy is a literal fucking monster yeah like no amount of money would ever satiate that man that's like what is wrong with you like what is wrong with that's more money than you'll ever be like what is wrong with and i just i never understand valuing that much money over human life like That's the thing.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And especially, and we always say this, I feel like, when it comes to a spouse murdering another spouse, but it's like, you take vows. You walk down the aisle with that person. In this case, you procreate multiple, multiple times with this person, and you don't feel anything? That's the thing. I'm like, you don't feel anything? You don't feel any connection to them?
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
No, I shouldn't say I don't really like them. I just don't prefer them. My preference is the brownies, you know? Write in. What's your preference? We'll do a social media poll. Oh, Lord. Alina's like, no. I'm like, no, I'll lose. America's sweetheart will win the brownie crusade. That's fine. More for me, like you said. Exactly, like you said. Like I said. Like I said. I said it. All right.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Drew and I get in a little tiff, and I'm like, I'm the worst horrible woman in the world, and I feel so bad. Like... What? You don't feel anything.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I think he absolutely is. You have to be dead inside.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Wow. And also, like, to kill your wife, one, is absolutely just, like, unthinkable. Then to kill her grieving father six or seven months later. First of all, you're going to make him wait six or seven months. Yeah. And then secondly, you're also killing her father. Like, why? So her poor mother has just lost her daughter and her husband? Yeah. Jesus.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So Cotton Thompson did testify on his own behalf, essentially telling the court that he had nothing to do with his wife's murder and that the extent of his relationship with Norman Mastrian was just an advisor one year earlier. But he didn't really say much else to convince the jury that he had no connection to the murder. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Instead, the defense just argued that the jury couldn't trust a chain of circumstantial evidence and the testimony of criminals who had all turned on each other in exchange for lighter sentences. But on December 7th, 1963, the jury deliberated for more than 26 hours before emerging to announce that they found T. Eugene Cotton Thompson guilty. Yes.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Of the first degree murder of his wife, Carol Thompson. Bye, bitch. And when asked about how they arrived at the verdict, one juror said, "...there was no one primary reason for our verdict. We thought of the case as a whole."
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And after waiving his right to a delay in sentencing, Judge Rolf Fawson immediately sentenced Cotton to life in prison, which at the time was the required sentence in cases of premeditated murder in Minnesota. Rot, bitch. Rot.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And in the months that followed, Norman Mastrian and Dick Anderson were both tried and both were found guilty of first-degree murder, meaning they both also got life sentences. Yeah, as you should. Now, Cotton appealed his conviction, of course. Shut up.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
He appealed to the state Supreme Court in 1966, arguing for a new trial on the grounds that he had been convicted on false testimony provided by several of his criminal co-conspirators. But the Supreme Court upheld the lower court's decision and denied the motion for a new trial. Wow. Wow. Jeff is, like, a very – he's a really good person, it seems.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah. Than, you know, most people. Like, that is – That's Carol's son. I was going to say that is Carol's son. That's Carol's son. That's not Cotton's son. I mean, it is Cotton's son. I'm not saying that, but you know what I'm saying. Yes. Now, just for kicks, on August 7th, 2015, on his 88th birthday, Cotton Thompson died in his sleep after struggling with failing health for several years.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And if that's not the universe saying, ha ha ha ha ha.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And I hate that he lived 88 years. Like, that's a long-ass life.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But rest in fucking distress. And the universe is always gonna get ya.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Wow. I told you. It's one of those cases that just starts and doesn't stop. It doesn't stop.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And her kids. And that's the thing. Like her kids just went to school that day.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And had no idea. And Jeff, poor Jeff, his dad told him lock that door. And then he spent the rest of his life thinking, what if I hadn't locked that door? Like, why did my dad make me lock? Like, I can't imagine the psychological damage that would do to you.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Well, I think that was an unhinged enough intro. I do want to see Fall of the House of Usher. Fall of the House of Usher. I highly recommend it, guys, if you haven't watched it.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
That's an awful, awful case. It's such a sad case, too, because you, in the beginning, like, when I started reading about this case, I was like, oh, like, she's going to live. She's going to pull through.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
It's just so sad. That's awful. But she was a fighter. She fought hard to think that she literally dragged herself or crawled a block away after sustaining what she sustained. Yeah. Running around that house multiple times, getting out of the bathtub, like...
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
oh my god she's unbelievable truly damn but what a tragic case it really is but um as always we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird but it's a way that you go and take out eight life insurance policies on your wife because somebody these days is gonna say hey that's weird and you're not just eccentric and i'm gonna call somebody yep
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And if you work at a life insurance company, call somebody. Call somebody. Say, hey, this guy just took out eight life insurance policies on his wife, and that's kind of weird. And he needs them within 11 months because he had a premonition that she's going to die unexpectedly in a tragic accident.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Every serving of cachava offers 25 grams of 100% plant-based protein, but that's not all. This all-in-one shake has fiber, quality fats, vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, and so much more. I love that I can tick so many boxes with just one delicious shake. If you know me, you know that vanilla and chai are my favorite flavors, and I like to combine them.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I'm willing to try his stuff. I don't think I've ever seen any. I think you would dig it. I really do. I feel like we usually have. Yeah. I wouldn't say similar tastes because you don't like the things that I love.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
I've seen the trailer of Fall of the House of Usher. I always feel like I'm going to say it wrong. And I liked the trailer. I was intrigued. I think you'd be into it. But I don't think Drew would like it. And that's tough because we watch TV together. No, I don't think that. Right now, if you're a Bravo head, oh my God, all the shows are on, honey. All of them.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Real Housewives of Beverly Hills just came back. First episode, absolutely obsessed. I do not condone smoking unless your name is Dorit Kemsley. Have you seen the picture of her lighting up a Virginia Slim and just driving around?
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
no she is she's like going through a divorce and it gets outed and she's getting chased by paparazzi and she just lights up a virginia slim and everybody knew that dorit smoked like she's been caught by paparazzi before but she's never done it on the show and she she just had such a fuck it moment yeah she doesn't give a shit it was iconic it was the smoke heard around the world but there you go don't smoke it kills it does
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
so anyway i think i said that was chaotic enough of an intro but then i made it more chaotic i love that well now we're going to get on to the case this case is absolutely bonkers from start to finish oh i'm excited yeah i will let you know like right off the top right off the top of this uh it's very brutal in the beginning but here it's called morbid it is
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So this is the murder of Carol Thompson. And it all started on the morning of March 6th, 1963. Ruth Nelson was just sitting in her living room in her St. Paul, Minnesota home. She was catching up on the morning news. And she heard what sounded like somebody lightly knocking on her front door.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So she went to the door and she peered through the small window and she couldn't see anybody, but she decided that she should just open the door to be sure. And when she opened the door, she saw that lying at the foot of the steps was her neighbor, 34-year-old Carol Thompson, who lived just a couple houses down. Temperatures that morning were freezing, but Carol was only wearing a light robe.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
She had no shoes on and the upper part of her body from her head to her chest was absolutely drenched in blood. And Carol looked up and in a voice just above a whisper, she looked at Ruth and said, help me.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
oh that's so haunting and she's like ruth has just started her morning just you know probably made a cup of coffee watching the news and opens her door up to wow like her beloved neighbor too yeah close and only 34 years old yeah super young neighbor so ruth called out to her husband and son who were still home they had been in the kitchen and they moved carol inside the house laying her gently on their rug and while harry nelson ran to call the police ruth and her son just tried to comfort carol however they could shit
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And one of the two ended up asking Carol what happened to had somebody attacked her who had ended a faint voice that suggested she was losing consciousness really quickly. She answered a man did it. And Ruth asked what the man's name was. And she thought that Carol said Johnson. But by then, Carol could hardly speak. Even so, she was just speaking over a whisper.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So Ruth would never be quite sure what the name was. Now, moments later, another neighbor, Dr. Fritz Pearson, arrived. His wife had been watching everything that morning through their living room window and suggested that he go over to help because she was like, something is, like, very wrong over there.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Oh, my God. Yeah. Ruth Nelson later said, I know Carol very well, but her face was covered with so much blood that even I didn't recognize her.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But they also have chocolate, they've got matcha, and they've got coconut acai. I'm a big fan of the coconut acai as well. After drinking cachava first thing in the morning, because that's when I always drink it, I feel satiated for hours. I feel focused, calm, and ready to take on my day.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So Harry Nelson's call to the St. Paul police came into dispatch at about 9.07 a.m. Just think of how early this is.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
At which point he reported only that his wife had discovered a, quote, badly injured lady on their doorstep and just that they needed help immediately. It's unclear what sergeants John Ricardo and Roy Shepard were really expecting when they got to the scene, but whatever it was, it was not really likely that they had pictured just a housewife, a neighbor just drenched in blood.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Later, Ricardo wrote in his report, the wounds were small and appeared to be stab wounds, but in truth, Carol had been injured so badly that it was impossible to tell where all the blood was coming from. She had so many wounds. So as Dr. Pearson continued providing first aid, the officers tried to get any information out of Carol herself.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
But by then she was barely conscious and she wasn't able to communicate at all. So it was Ruth Nelson who explained how she came to found Carol that morning. But nobody had any idea what happened to her, like how she got that. Yeah. Can you imagine just finding someone like that? No.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
No. And she can't tell you. That's the worst part. So the ambulance arrived a few minutes later and the EMTs were directed inside. And in their report, one of the EMTs described the extent of Carol's wounds as far as he could see at the time, writing, We also noticed a shiny metal tip or what appeared to be a knife blade protruding from the left side of the neck. Who the fuck did this to her?
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Oh, just wait. So Carol was taken to Anchor Hospital by the ambulance while the officers called for additional support and started their investigation. From what the two initial investigators could tell, Mercado and Shepard, it seemed like Carol had actually crawled or dragged her way down the street just trying to find help. Oh, that like shadow. Shatters my heart. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And just like this quiet 1960s suburban neighborhood and she can't yell because she's been stabbed in the fucking neck. So when they conducted their door-to-door canvas of the neighborhood, Fritz Pearson's wife, who that was the doctor's wife who had sent him over.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
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Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
and a handyman who had been working on their house told investigators that she'd seen who she now knew to be carol slumped in front of another neighbor's house just a few minutes before she made her way to the nelson's door so she had to like stop on her way there yeah of course which is i just can't imagine looking out my window and seeing that no and also like did you tell anyone
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
She's the one that sent her husband over. Oh, okay.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Yeah, so I think she saw. I think probably what happened was initially she saw somebody, like, in the street and was like, who is that? Like, what's going on? And then looked further and saw her get to the Nelsons and realized who it was. It was like, all right, there's something wrong here.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So when investigators arrived at Carol Thompson's home about just a block away, nobody was home and the front door was locked. So the officers ended up entering through a side door that was open and that opened up into the kitchen.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
For the most part, the kitchen actually seemed to be pretty undisturbed, except there was one drawer where silverware and knives had been pulled out and its contents were spilled to the floor. But then they saw a trail of blood that led them from the kitchen to the front door where where they discovered a large pool of blood.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
And laying in the blood, investigators discovered three unspent live rounds from a pistol, what appeared to be the handle of the knife from Carol's neck, and several pieces of hard white plastic of unknown origin. They couldn't figure out what this plastic was. Oh, fuck.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Once they confirmed that there was nobody in the house, the attacker wasn't there, a team of investigators started searching the Thompsons' two-floor home, hoping to get some insight into what happened at all.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Now, the first thing they noticed was that the front door had been locked from the inside with the safety latch, like a little chain latch, but the door had been pulled so hard from the inside that it had actually come away from the frame slightly.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
So somebody was trying to get out desperately. Right. Also discovered on the floor by the door just under the rug was Carol's wedding ring.
Morbid
Episode 627: The Murder of Carol Thompson
Which is just like... That's very chilling. Yeah, like what? Now, upstairs in the bathroom, investigators found several smears of blood in the sink, which led them to believe that whoever had attacked Carol definitely tried to clean up after themselves before leaving. And they also saw that there was about six or seven inches of water in the bathtub. Huh. Which is so weird. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Well, throughout the later years of the 1970s, Jean's relationship with Dr. Tarnower began to crumble at a pretty rapid rate. He was just seemingly replacing her with his younger lab assistant, Lynn. By the end of the decade, her emotional distress and her drug dependency at this point had really started to distort her thinking. She was profoundly depressed, very lonely.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
She was struggling with anxiety on a daily basis, and it was all showing. And not only in her personal life, but her professional life, too. That makes... That's so sad. She unraveled.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah, absolutely. One colleague said, That's not cool. In fact, at one point, she became so irrationally frustrated with their lack of respect for cleanliness that she banned oranges from the campus because the girls always left their peels, their orange peels laying around instead of tossing them. So she was like, okay, no more oranges on campus. That's some headmistress shit.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Which I'm also like, who, like, isn't there somebody above you that you have to get like approval from? Can you ban oranges from a school? Don't oranges fall under like free something? Yeah. You know? Free something.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Free citrus, you know? But that just shows how bizarre and irrational her thinking was. By the end of 1980, the entire affair had started to take a toll on actually everybody involved, and of course, Jean in particular. At the end of January, her contract with the school was renewed, and she received a substantial raise, which was good.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
If you're on Wondery Plus. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
But in private, she told her secretary she, quote, felt like packing a bag and getting the hell out of there. Yeah, it sounds bad. Yeah. The comment was understood to indicate that she was burning out, But in truth, things were far worse than really anybody even knew.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
In late February, Jean spent 10 days traveling on the West Coast in a fundraising and recruitment effort for the school, and during that trip, she ran out of desoxen.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
When she got back to Washington in the first week of March, she immediately called High, who promised that he would send more, but any relief she felt was quickly undermined when he also told her that he had decided not to bring her as his companion to an upcoming Heart Association banquet. He said she was still invited to attend, but Lynn was also invited to attend.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
We just can't say who it is.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I think revoking the invitation probably came from her... state at that time yeah i think he was like you are clearly not doing well and like yeah i don't like you can still come if you want like i think he's trying to let her down easy yeah it was probably one of those things where it was like you can come if you want because i invited you but like we don't up to you yeah
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And like I said, when Hai had initially asked her to accompany him to the banquet, like he did, Jean took that invitation to mean that things between them were returning to normal. Of course. So his decision to attend the banquet alone now not only felt like a rejection of her as a companion, but also an indication that she was now on equal ground with Lin.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Because Lin, he wasn't going with Lin, but she was invited to come if she wanted to. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. And she always believed that Lynn was nothing more than High's mistress, which meant that she probably, like Jean herself probably was at this point too. Damn. You know? So his rejection was an absolute shock to Jean, which is interesting.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
But rather than react in the moment, she simply said she'd call him back and she abruptly hung up the phone. In the days that followed, she seemed to operate on autopilot, meeting with difficult parents and students, a lot of whom were confrontational. It's a very, you know, elite school. And by then, desoxen had completely left her body and the symptoms of withdrawal were starting to set in.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Among other things, she was feeling even more depressed and despondent and her ability to cope with her declining mental health pretty much evaporated. Oh, this is really sad. It's very sad. On the evening of March 9th, after spending days unable to reach high, and he hasn't sent a prescription, he's basically just, like, ghosting her. Oh, fuck. She sat down to write her lover a letter.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
She said, This is a quote. I haven't played the slave for you. I would have never committed adultery for you. But I have added a dimension to your life and given you pleasure and dignity as you have me. I've watched you grow rich in the years where we have been together. And I have watched me go through moments where I was almost destitute.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And now that thieving slut has the run of your home and you accuse me of stealing money and books. The many things your whore does openly and obviously you now have the cruelty to accuse me of. Wow. Yeah. Which, if you think about the letters that we read between them in part one, obviously they're, like, love letters, and this is clearly not a love letter.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
But even just, like, her way of thinking, you can tell, is completely distorted. Oh, 100%. Like, she is angry. This is rage-coded. This is, like... That thieving slut calling her a whore.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
not in her right mind like she is not in a normal state of being like her homeostasis here exactly and scary in the end she's talking about lynn basically like she thought that i it's a little unclear because it almost seems like she saw like because he was saying lynn is invited to the banquet and so are you and i think she thought they were on the same playing field and then i don't know if there was like another call that happened where he was saying like
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
No, I'm still with Lynn. Yeah, or like, I am taking Lynn.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
You had so much fun. I did.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
But not how you do, apparently.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
No. Well, that's like a small excerpt, because this letter went on for pages and pages, as Jean poured out every ounce of anger and resentment that she felt toward Hai and Lin over the previous five years. She had a lot to say. But she still indicated that all she wanted was to spend as much time with Hai as she could, which is very sad.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Now, she planned to send the letter by registered mail to ensure that he would receive it, but then she got a better idea. She would drive the five hours from Washington to New York to deliver it to High in person.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
By the morning of March 10th, Jean had been withdrawing from methamphetamine and painkillers for days, and she was severely sleep-deprived as well. So to say that she was not in her right mind would actually be a serious understatement.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
She is. To herself and others. I was going to say to herself and everyone around her. Yeah. She had spent 14 years devoting everything she had to her job and to Herman Tarnower, and now she was just starting to feel like she was being pushed out of both. It felt to her, she later said, that quote, the last of her support systems had now been knocked out from under her.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
So that morning she called her secretary and told her to cancel all her appointments for that afternoon. And then she called high and actually managed to get through to him. And she said, hi, it's been a bad few weeks. I'd like to come up and talk to you for a few minutes. And he said he was having dinner guests that night and that it would be better if they could chat the following day.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
But she insisted and he relented and said, fine, come see me tonight.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Neither Herman Tarnower nor anybody else knew it, but Jean Harris had come up with a plan, and I just want to give a trigger warning for suicide here. She purchased a .32 caliber handgun a few days earlier after seeing High one last time.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
She planned to walk a short distance to a little park that she liked near High's house, and there was a pond in the park that she actually always liked to sit by, and she decided that would be the place she wanted to go to end her life.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
oh man that's sad very very sad before leaving she actually finalized her will and she wrote a letter of resignation addressed to the board of directors at the madeira school and then she got in the car and left washington bound for new york So it was late, almost 11 o'clock at night, when Jean finally got to Dr. Tarnower's apartment.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
A student had actually given her flowers earlier that day, so she thought High might like to have them. So she grabbed that bouquet of flowers and the gun before exiting the car and going up to the apartment. Inside, it was dark and it seemed that High and his housekeeper, Suzanne, had already gone to bed. So Jean climbed the stairs, called softly out to High, but got no response.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And quietly, she entered the bedroom where she found him sleeping. And she whispered to him as she fumbled with the wall switch to turn the light on.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Immediately jarring. Yeah. Yeah. So when the light came on, High was just waking up, so he was rubbing his eyes, and he's like, what the fuck? And despite his giving in to seeing her that night, he told her at that point that he was tired, and he didn't want to talk in the middle of the night. Like, probably smart. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
But Jean just sat down on the edge of the bed, hoping that her continued presence would rouse him. But High was like, yeah, cool, I'm gonna go back to sleep. Yeah. So she just started chatting casually, and according to her, he said, Jesus, Jean, just shut up and go to bed. Which, like, I can kind of understand.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I just wake up like Drew is like, you're so mean when you first wake up or like you're not quite awake.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And like talking about nothing, just casually sitting there on the edge of my bed talking. Come on, stop it.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And it's not logical and it's not characteristic for her. No. Like, based on everything we know. This just seems over the top. Yeah. So not wanting to sleep, Jean went into the primary bathroom to gather a few of her things that she intended to give her daughter-in-law.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And it had always been the responsibility of High's housekeeper, Suzanne, to remove Jean's things when she left and replace them with Lynn's clothing and vice versa when Jean was coming.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Which, like, think of that job. Being like, oh, let me take this woman's clothes.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah. That's super fucked up.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Again, it reminds me of Richard and his housekeeper that was in love with him.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
So, not saying that his housekeeper was in love with him. She wasn't. But Jean was surprised when she switched on the light and found the room filled with somebody else's clothing. the realization that that clothing and that jewelry all around belonged to Lynn seemed to cause something to snap inside of Jean. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
So now she was irrationally angry, like irate, and grabbed a handful of clothing and other items and stormed back into the bedroom. She threw the items at high on the bed, but overshot and ended up sending several of the heavier items crashing through one of the bedroom windows. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Also, I'm like, what did you throw between clothing and jewelry that it crashed through a bedroom window? Was it like shoes or something? Maybe.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I think so too. Yeah. And this whole version of events is Jean's version of events, obviously. So we're going to have to kind of step in every now and again and say like, she said that happened, but we probably think this.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I'm going to spend that on something cooler. For simple, smart savings on your everyday prescriptions, check GoodRx. Go to GoodRx.com slash morbid. That's GoodRx.com slash morbid. So by that point, High was out of bed and very angry and apparently slapped Jean hard across the face, which sent her retreating into the bathroom.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
She said, yeah, super fucked up. She said he was angrier than she had ever seen him. And when he entered the dressing room adjacent to the bathroom, he hit her again just as hard as he had the first time. During the five-hour drive to New York, Jean had envisioned one last romantic moment with High where she would say goodbye and then go to the park, according to her.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And in her mind, the whole thing had been so romantic and peaceful, but now things had fallen apart so quickly and none of it was going according to her plan. So she said later that she yelled at him, and this is so fucking bleak and sad and awful, hit me again, High, make it hard enough to kill me. Oh, this is awful. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
But rather than hit her again, he just looked down at her with disgust and told her to get out. So she hesitated for a moment, and then she stood up and started walking toward the bedroom door, she said intending to start her walk to the park.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
But when she reached the edge of the bed, she said it occurred to her that her entire plan had already unraveled, so it made no difference whether she went to the park to end her life or if she just simply did it right there and then in his bedroom. So she said to him, according to her, never mind, hi, I'll do it myself. And she grabbed the gun from her handbag and placed the barrel to her temple.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Again, given the outcome of this incident, we only have her description of the events to go by. But until her death in 2012, she did maintain that what happened next was entirely accidental.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah, like why you would even take it in there if you were planning just to go to the park. Yeah. I don't know if maybe she was planning to leave her car. And walk there? And walk over, but even still you could walk out to your car and grab the gun.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I would say probably not.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
It gets stranger. Okay. So apparently, according to Jean, when High saw the gun in her hand, he jumped toward her from behind, which knocked the gun away from her head and caused it to discharge. Okay. When she turned around, High was standing there with a shocked look on his face, and he shouted at her, look what you've done, while holding up his bloody hand.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
In the webbing where his thumb connected with his right hand, there was a bullet hole where blood was just pouring out. So they stared at each other for a few seconds, and then High walked to the bathroom, and Jean could hear the water running, which makes my hand radiate. I literally, my whole body, I was like, ugh, like starting to rinse that off. I'm just like, ugh.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
That makes my legs hurt for some reason. That's interesting. I don't know. Maybe it's, like, a thing in your brain. I think it is. But also, this guy's a doctor, and he just got shot in the hand. Yeah, that's not great. Like, he's going to be insanely angry.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
So with high out of the room, Jean said she began frantically looking for the gun on the floor, hoping that she'd find it and end her own life before he came out of the bathroom. So she dropped to her hands and knees, and she could see the gun under the bed. And she said she just reached it and was raising it to her head again...
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
when high's arm came at her from the side and wrenched it out of her hand for the second time they sat across from each other just staring at each other for a short time and then high reached over for the phone to call his housekeeper suzanne okay so for the most part gene's recollection of the night's events appear to be pretty clear and somewhat supported by the evidence Like, some of them.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
But when it comes to what happened after High reached for the phone, her version of events became cloudy and left investigators with a lot of questions.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
According to Jean, she must have tried to reach for the gun again because she recalled physically fighting with High. And during that attack, she was struck in the face again. And during the struggle, she fell back on the bed with high on top of her, and she felt something poking her stomach.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
She assumed it was the barrel of the gun, so she squeezed the trigger and heard a loud bang as the gun went off. But to her surprise, she didn't feel any pain. High then slid off of her, and without thinking, she jumped off the bed and ran toward the bathroom, knowing that she needed to shoot herself again or he was definitely going to get the gun from her for a third time.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
So High was on his knees by the side of the bed, and when Jean stopped and looked at him, she didn't understand why he stopped chasing her. But without giving it much thought, she raised the gun to her head, took a deep breath, and pulled the trigger, she said. She said the gun made a clicking sound, but nothing happened. And then she looked down and saw that all of the chambers were empty.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
She ran to the bathroom and she started rummaging around in her pocket for more bullets. So she had more bullets, which is strange to me. So how many chambers are in this gun?
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
According to Jean, we'll get there.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And again, why do you have more bullets? If you're planning on just shooting yourself, you would have just taken that loaded gun. In my opinion, you would have just taken that loaded gun with you. I would have left it in the car probably. I don't want to put myself in these shoes, but I don't think I would have brought the loaded gun in to say goodbye to Hai.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
No, the extra bullets makes no sense. But once she found the extra bullets, it occurred to her she didn't know how to load or unload the gun, she said.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
which that so how like do i don't do you buy a loaded gun does that make any sense i i'm not positive about this but i don't think you do i don't think so either i'm fairly certain you don't i'll look it up just to be sure but i'm i'm like what i would think you wouldn't i'll keep going while you look it up yeah feel free to interrupt me so she banged the gun on the side of the bathtub hoping to dislodge the empty shells but all she succeeded in doing was breaking the cylinder from the gun which meant at that point it was useless
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I don't, you never know if maybe like she said to the person, I don't know how to load this. Can you load it up for me? And like they did something illegally, but I don't know. It's, that's all. I'm going to go with no on that one. At this point, she remembered exiting the bathroom and telling High that the gun was broken. And she said, it's probably dead.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And she said he replied, you're probably right. And he slowly climbed into bed and covered himself with a blanket. Then according to Jean, it was then that she realized High was injured. His coloring was off and he looked absolutely exhausted. So she decided she needed to go get help.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
So she ran down the stairs into the dark and she could hear Suzanne talking to someone in the dining room, but she paid no attention to what she was saying. Outside, she said that she remembered there was a payphone down the street about a quarter mile away. So she jumped in her car and raced in the direction of the phone, which is strange to get in your car and leave the scene.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
As she neared the phone, a police car sped up behind her with its lights flashing. So she made a U-turn and started heading back toward the house with the police car obviously following very closely behind her. And when she reached the driveway, she jumped out and shouted to the officer, hurry up, he's been shot.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Well, right now we're in part two of Gene Harris and the murder of Dr. Herman Tarnower.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
When they entered the house, Suzanne was standing by the stairs, and when she saw Jean, she shouted, She's the one. She did it. Jean, Suzanne, and the officer went upstairs to the bedroom, where they found Herman Tarnauer on his knees beside the bed, slumped against the side table, one bloody hand still reaching for the phone.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
So when she said he got into bed and he put a blanket over himself, I don't think that happened. Yeah, because now he's kneeling on the... Yeah, I don't think that happened. With Suzanne's help, the officer laid High down on his back and then went down to his car to get an oxygen tank.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Gene lay across the bed, just caressing High's face as he lay on the floor struggling to breathe and asked him, Oh, High, why didn't you kill me? A short time later, Dr. Herman Tarnower died from a severed artery caused when a bullet entered his chest. So he just bled out.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Several questions. Uh-huh. So Jean never denied that she had shot high, but from that point forward, her story about the night's events would change a number of times.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
At first, she told detectives at the scene, quote, there was a fight and the gun went off. In his testimony in court, Officer Daniel O'Sullivan recounted his questioning of Jean for the jury. According to O'Sullivan, Jean, quote, asked the doctor to kill her, meaning Dr. Tarnower, and the struggle then resumed and several shots were fired. Several means more than two. And
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
everything how the ups and downs and the turns and the yeah this feels is like an epic drama it is an epic drama yeah it's giving like soap opera yeah a little bit it for sure is you know so in part one we heard all about jean's upbringing and how it would obviously later affect her man picker um her man picker man picker her picker How her first marriage didn't work out.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
In fact, Jean had told the officer, he wanted to live, I wanted to die. I've been through so much hell with him, I loved him very much, he slept with every woman he could, and I've had it.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
The next morning, the news of the murder broke on the front page of the New York Times, and in the article, police chief William Harris is quoted as saying, we found a revolver in the glove compartment of her car, and she made certain admissions.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah. Okay. In her frenzy of going to get help. Again, that doesn't make sense to me. He stopped short, obviously, of providing any details as to what Jean had admitted to. Later that day, she was booked on a charge of second-degree murder, a charge which her lawyer strongly objected to. The lawyer, Joel Arnaud, told reporters, nothing I've heard would apply to intentional homicide.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Which, it's gray. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. The story of High's murder, though, obviously was one of the most scandalous things to hit the front page in a long time. He was one of the most well-known and well-respected doctors in the country at the time. And it seemed like he'd been killed by a jealous lover who also came from high society.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Now, like I said earlier, Jean stuck to her story in the way that she maintained that it was an accident. But the other aspects of the story didn't make sense, like you and I have kind of touched on. According to Jean, she did shoot high in the hand and one time in the stomach, thinking that she was shooting herself.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
But when Dr. Lewis Rowe performed the autopsy the next day, he noted that Dr. Tarnower had been struck by four bullets.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Four. Yeah. One in the upper interior chest wall, one in the hand, one in the right arm, and one in the shoulder. Yeah. So that doesn't even really make sense for if he's on top of her and she feels the gun poking her stomach.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
He would have been shot in the stomach if they're belly to belly like you would imagine they would be. Yep. Or even really like they could have been groin to belly if he's a bit taller than her.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
You know? But for his chest to be at her stomach.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
So it was the bullet that entered near her shoulder that likely killed him. According to the autopsy, the bullet had entered the right chest cavity, fracturing three ribs. The fractures had caused the laceration of the pleural lining. The bullet had traveled in a downward trajectory on the surface of the lung, causing a great deal of hemorrhaging and lung tissue.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
It continued downward, perforating the diaphragm and the front part of the right kidney where it was recovered.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
So he... It really banged around in there. Yeah. The autopsy directly contradicted Gene's story. Like...
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
It is. Not only had High been shot two more times than she had even told police, but he'd also been shot in multiple locations, including one wound that indicated the shooter had actually been standing over him. A downward trajectory. Exactly. Dr. Rowe concluded, Dr. Tarnower's wounds are not consistent with a struggle over a gun between a left-handed woman and a right-handed man. Ah.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
How fucking everybody hated Jim. Yeah. And how she was so close to a second chance at marriage with Dr. Herman. Hi, Tarnower. But how that all ultimately unraveled. Then, of course, we got into how she started relying on desoxan, a prescription form of methamphetamine. You know the one. That was for her chronic back pain.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
When Jean finally went to trial in late November of 1980, the prosecution and the defense immediately ran into problems selecting a jury. Not only had a lot of people heard about the scandal in the paper or on the news, they were also familiar with the Scarsdale Diet, and many prospective jurors had even tried it. Oh, man. So that really puts a wrench in things. Yeah, that tinks it all.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Then there were the details of the case itself. In 1980, a love triangle between three society people wasn't really something a lot of Americans understood or condoned, for that matter. And just as important was the fact that Dr. Tarnower was Jewish and Jean was not.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
As her lawyer put it, this relationship crossed religious lines, and there was a good chance that some jurors might seek to punish Jean for that.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
A lot of people know him, the diet, high society. But the fact that he's Jewish and she's not plays a role in this is like... Get a grip. We gotta do better as a society.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Touch some grass, everybody. I'm like, how about she's a person and he is too and one of them got murdered? Yeah.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
How about, like, we look at the facts here. So when the trial began in earnest a few weeks later, the prosecutor, George Bolin, presented the case to the jury as one of simple jealousy and rage.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
You know, I kind of agree with this case. He theorized that, quote, Mrs. Harris, desperately unhappy over the loss of Dr. Tarnower's affections and resentful of his relationship with a younger woman, entered his home unannounced and unexpected and intentionally shot him, causing his death. I mean... That's pretty much what happened. Yeah?
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
In support of that theory, one witness after another was called to testify as to Jean's psychological state in the days leading up to the shooting. Tarnower's housekeeper, Suzanne Van Der Vrecken, which, that's a really funny name to say. Van Der Vrecken? Van Der Vrecken.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah. She kept meticulous diaries documenting all the drama that went on in the house. We love a girlie who keeps a diary for us. That's a receipts queen. Yeah. To me, that screams Gemini. I love that. That does feel like a Gemini move. We love a goddamn drama and we love a goddamn receipt. We love it.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And how that was really starting to change her personality and shift her way of thinking. Yeah. And then, of course, we got into Dr. Tarnower's relationship with his girlfriend, Lynn, and how that kind of lined up with some pretty scary and strange harassing phone calls that were leaving Jean quite paranoid. Yeah.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
She told the jury she, quote, maintained the diaries to keep track of what she served at the doctor's dinner parties, but they also contained information about who was staying at the house on particular evenings because it was her job to keep track of that.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I love that. And I think she just lacked the tea. I think she just liked the tea. Yeah. But the defense argued the opposite, telling the jury that Jean's shooting of Dr. Tarnower was accidental. I don't know how you accidentally shoot somebody four different times, at least one of them being in a downward trajectory.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And to lie about the amount of times.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
It's shady. So they argued, though, that she had gone to his house to say goodbye and had fully intended to take her own life after that, but the situation escalated and the two ended up in a physical struggle. The press hung on absolutely every word of every witness, but none were more captivating than Jean herself. Oh boy.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah, she proved to be a crucial, if somewhat problematic, witness for the defense. On one hand, she was able to adequately explain the stress that she had been under, the multiple stresses at the time, and her state of mind leading up to the shooting. And when she managed to get her version of events out in a way that supported everything she'd claimed.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I don't necessarily think she had a fully laid out plan for anything that was going to happen that night. I think she... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah, because the whole jealousy angle of, like, if I can't have you, nobody will, and I can't live without you.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah? Yeah. I think you're very much onto something there. But on the other hand, many observers found Jean to be, quote, sad, humorous, and cutting. She had spent so many years... Yeah, humorous is an interesting adjective there. I'm like, sad and cutting, totally.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
That's interesting. But she had spent a lot of years among the wealthiest of society and had adopted a lot of their behavior. She was very cold... very distant on the stand, and her behavior, as she described it, was often difficult for many people to empathize with. Equally challenging was the so-called Scarsdale letter, which Jean had written to High before driving to New York.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah. Now let's get into part two. At the same time that her relationship with Dr. Tarnower seemed to be basically reaching a pretty bitter end, Jean was at the peak of her career.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Among other things, the letter made Jean look pretty petty and vindictive, which ultimately then supported the prosecution's theory that she killed out of jealousy.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
It very much does. Because remember, I read an excerpt of that. And it was pretty rough. That was pages and pages long. Yeah. Yeah. So when the case finally came to an end in mid-February of 1981, the jury was instructed that they were to decide whether Jean was guilty or innocent. And if they decide the former, they could choose between a charge of manslaughter or second degree murder.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
According to one of the jurors, Marie Jackson, she said, we never considered the lesser charges. We stuck on the murder charge, and that's all we talked about. Whoa. Which you can kind of understand. Yeah, I mean, it does seem like she came there with a gun. That's the thing. A loaded gun at that. Yeah.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
The defense had based their argument largely on the fact that Jean was suffering from mental illness at the time, but the jury actually found that difficult to believe. And remember, this wasn't a time where they would have been like, oh my god, she's on meth! They would have been like, oh, she's on a prescription that, you know, like... We don't know a lot about, you know.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Jackson told a reporter, we thought some people might have thought that she was crazy when she did it, but there was no psychiatric testimony about that, so we couldn't do it.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
In the end, though, it was a reenactment of the shooting that ultimately brought the jury to a unanimous decision. After 48 hours of deliberation, the jury emerged and found Jean Harris guilty of second degree murder. Ultimately, it was her own testimony and, of course, like I just said, the reconstruction of those events that night that swayed them.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Juror Marion Stevens said if her intent was suicide, the actions that took place that night should have worked out. Yeah. Which I agree with. It doesn't make sense. To the jury, exactly. It didn't make any sense that Jean would have had multiple opportunities to end her own life, but somehow ended up killing Dr. Tarnower after shooting him four times. Exactly. That's the thing. It doesn't add up.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Another juror said, if she never would have got on the stand, I guess I would have had to reconstruct in my mind what happened. But here, I had Jean Harris telling me what did happen. Oop.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
so it's like she kind of sealed her own fate yeah on march 19th she appeared in court for sentencing where she was given 15 years to life for the murder of dr herman tarnauer and when asked if she had anything to say on her own behalf she told the judge i did not murder dr tarnauer i loved him very much no one in this world feels his loss more than i do i am not guilty you and mr bolin the prosecutor have arranged my life in such a way that i'll be in a cage for the rest of it
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And with irons on my hands every time I get out. That's not justice. It's a travesty of justice.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I mean, that's a pretty heavy statement. I think if you kill someone, you should go to jail for it. Yeah, you made a big old mistake, girl. Despite the anger and bitterness that she felt around her sentencing, she did ultimately, she was said to have made the most of her time at the Bedford Hills Correctional Facility. She was there for 12 years.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
No, and I think... where she was in a mental state, it just wasn't possible for her to really relish in that. Sometimes it's hard to disengage. It is, exactly. So as the headmistress of one of the nation's most elite private schools, like I was saying in part one, she regularly attended galas and dinner parties with some of the nation's wealthiest families.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
She worked in the parenting center while she was incarcerated, teaching parenting classes to the inmate mothers and helping them build skills that they would need to get their kids back after they were done with their sentences. And she also worked in and started programs that would help other inmates learn skills to help them find work when they were released.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
including getting a high school diploma or a college degree. And in the meantime, she appealed her sentence and applied for clemency until she was eventually paroled in 1993. Whoa. She died of natural causes on December 23, 2012, at the age of 89. Damn. And that is the story of the murder of Dr. Herman Tarnower and Jean Harris, who committed said murder.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
It's just sad. It's just really, really sad. It's really sad. Because I think... I think she snapped a little bit, but actually I didn't even think about... I don't know why that didn't occur to me that it was probably a murder-suicide. I completely agree with you there. I completely agree with you there.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
When I first went through this, I was like, I think she snapped when she got into the bathroom and Lynn's clothes were there.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And that's when she killed him.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
But I think you're right. Yeah. That could have been her plan all along, and that's why she had all those bullets.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I think you're pretty right there.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
It's just really sad. It's really a sad case. And it's like none of this really ever had to happen if you just moved on from him. Yeah.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And he was I think he was somewhat of a womanizer, but I don't think he deserved that ending.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And it started like so purely.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah, but then it pops off really quick. Yeah. Crazy. So that's the story. We got some more stuff coming your way. Some very exciting stuff. Exciting stuff. Especially this girl over here. Her eyes just lit the fuck up. Hell yeah. I think it's already happened, but we told you about it in the beginning. Yeah.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
but we'll record right after so you can get the full feeling yeah and with all of that being said you guys we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird but not so weird that any of this takes place no you just gotta you gotta get out when it's time to go babe yeah get out of there yeah hit the road girl hit the road gene that's right don't you come back no Thank you.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And she was invited to speak at education conferences around the country. In a letter to High in 1977, she wrote, my workday begins at 8 a.m. and lasts until I drop. Damn. So it's like she was at the peak of her career, but it was also really taxing. Yeah. On her physical health and her mental health. For sure.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
And you're burning the candle at both ends.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
It's not healthy. Precisely. So like the Thomas School, the Madeira School had also been struggling in the mid-70s, including an incident, this is fucking awful, where a mentally ill man abducted and sexually assaulted one of the students. He left her tied to a tree on campus and she died from exposure. Holy shit. Yeah, it's something we're definitely going to look more into. That's horrific.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah, well, it was this incident that eventually led the previous headmistress to retire. You can imagine why. Opening the job for somebody new who could, you know, revitalize the school. One of the board members later said of their search for a replacement, we wanted someone womanly.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Well, Jean was womanly. She met all the board's criteria for an ideal headmistress. Wow. But the job proved far harder and, like I was saying, way more emotionally taxing than she had anticipated. And adding to her stress was the additional work that she had taken on in order to help High with a diet book that he was... actually contracted to produce about his popular Scarsdale diet.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
This is like a high protein, low carb method of weight loss. And despite its immense popularity at the time, the diet, the Scarsdale diet has since been labeled a pretty good example of a fad diet where you would lose a great deal of weight when you first did this, but you would, once you stopped dieting, you just gained the weight back because it's not sustainable.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I do too. It's a very unhealthy industry.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I don't care. Don't come at me.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
It's my opinion. It's my opinion. Nevertheless, though, in the late 1970s, Dr. Tarnower's diet was extremely profitable and publishing houses across New York were just clamoring to publish his first official book. Yeah. Diet book. So in late 1978, his diet really wasn't more than just a one-page eating plan that he was giving out to patients who wanted to lose weight.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
But his publisher hired ghost writer Sam Sinclair, author of more than two dozen self-help books, to develop that one single sheet into a several hundred page book.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
damn i feel like you're gonna find this part interesting yeah sinclair was given six months to produce the entire book whoa but when gene read the first draft of what he'd produced she was shocked by really how unethical and actually poorly written the book was oh no Her opinions led, obviously, she's a woman with opinions, so that's not great in this time. No, not in that time.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
A lot of tension started to, you know, unravel between herself, Dr. Tarnower, and the ghostwriter Sinclair, to the point where she offered to rewrite the entire manuscript herself. Wow. She was like, this is so bad that, like, I'm gonna do it all and make it better, and I'm not even... She wasn't, like, she wasn't a writer. Damn.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
You know, like, obviously, she's a very... She's a trained professional when it comes to, like, being a teacher and that kind of thing, so she can write, I'm sure. But, like... She proves herself. Holy shit. Yeah. Yeah. Under any circumstances, rewriting Dr. Tarnower's book would have been a huge time commitment.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
But considering that Jean also had a very demanding full-time job, it seemed pretty unrealistic. And unnecessary. And unnecessary. Yet, somehow she managed to pull off the impossible and produced a respectable final draft for the publisher on time. Wow. Yeah. Wrote the whole thing over.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
She's in a constant loop of trying to prove her worth.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
So the complete Scarsdale Medical Diet by Dr. Herman Tarnower and Sam Sinclair. I'm sorry we missed a name there. I think y'all mean Gene Harris, but okay. Came out in late December of 1978 and it was an immediate success.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I feel like we should have body slammed at the end of that. Like a dude bro. Yeah. I like that. Like metaphorically.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Of course, all the credit really went to Dr. Tarnower alone instead of the group of doctors who had really created the book at the Scarsdale Medical Group or Gene Harris who literally wrote the entire fucking book. That's gross. Yeah. Yet for Jean, writing the book was never about money. It was an opportunity to prove to High that she was still of use to him and worth keeping in his life.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
So when he offered to pay her $2,000 for her work, she was deeply hurt and immediately left New York and returned to Virginia. Me, I would have taken that cash.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Two weeks later, she received a check from Dr. Tarnower, along with a note that read, for reasons that I cannot explain, it is imperative that I make all book disbursements at this time. I am enclosing a check for $4,000 that I hope you will accept. So he wanted to pay her for this. This was a professional exchange in his mind. And for her, it's like... It was proving her love for him.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Her work on the book was a labor of love.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Something to show him how much she valued him. Yeah. And he basically dismissed that and treated it like it was a service that could be bought. Which... It is technically, but that's not, that was not her intent and why she did it.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Yeah. And I don't know if she did. I don't think they were great communicators.
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Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Well, and this was a pretty big turning point in their relationship.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
She wrote to him, you have said to me so many times, I never ask anything of you. I never ask anything of anyone. But my dear, that isn't true. For starters, you ask every woman to be as incapable of love as you are. Wow, that was a good line. Reads upon reads upon reads I'm here. In giving her a check for the work, I reminded Jean yet again that their relationship had become purely transactional.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
But still, she couldn't let go of their relationship. It was almost like she became addicted to him. Oh, 100%. Almost as addicted as the pills that he'd been prescribing her. And now she was stuck in this terrible position of being totally emotionally reliant on a man who really didn't want anything to do with her pretty clearly.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
That's what I was going to say. I was going to finish it.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Oh, there's so many things to take care of every single day. Like you got to wake up, you got to do your breakfast. Luckily, I don't have kids. I don't know how you people with kids do it because then you have to make like 47 more breakfasts. It's a lot of things going on. We have to manage our stress as people. You know how you can do that? Start your morning with Ritual Stress Relief.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
This product uses first-of-its-kind technology to support the body's natural cortisol response so that you can take on the daily juggle. I absolutely love Ritual. I actually take their Symbiotic Plus Gut Health. It's like a prebiotic and a probiotic in one. You know your girl has tummy issues, but not really anymore.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I feel like it's really helped me be, if I'm being blatantly honest, a little more regular. They also have other great things. Their Stress Relief Bioseries technology is designed to optimize the release of a trio of clinically studied ingredients to help the body manage stress. Guys, the juggle is real. Don't just respond to stress. Get ahead of it with Stress Relief from Ritual.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
Get 25% off your first month at ritual.com slash morbid. Start Ritual or add stress relief to your subscription today. That's ritual.com slash morbid for 25% off. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I feel like I am a super lucky gal because I really have such a great support system around me. I got my husband. First of all, he rocks my socks. I got my cool ass sister. I got Mikey.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
You know him. I got a lot of supporters in my corner. But it wasn't always like that. I didn't always feel that way. And when I didn't, therapy was a great support system for me. Think about your favorite leaders, mentors, and idols. They don't always have all the answers, but they do know when to ask questions or seek support from their community.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
In a society that glorifies hyperindependence, it's easy to forget that we're all better when we have a support system behind us. Therapy can be a source of support, like I said, for any area in your life. It's time to shift the focus from doing it all to knowing that we're better when we actually ask for help. I have benefited from therapy so much in my past. I love therapy.
Morbid
Episode 652: Jean Harris and the Murder of Herman Tarnower (Part 2)
I'm a big proponent of it. I think everybody should try it. It just helps to have a little chit-chat every now and again with somebody who doesn't have a horse in the race. Build your support system with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash morbid today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash morbid.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Hey weirdos, before we unleash today's macabre mystery, we were wondering, have you ever heard of Wondery Plus? It's like a secret passage to an ad-free lair with early access to episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And it's going to be a Listener Tales episode. Yes, which means we're going to dress up. And boy, do we have something. So that's exciting. I ordered all the accoutrements of my costume today. That was fun, me too.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And he also has like, no matter what, this is so fucked, but he has no idea who this even is. No. So that's not, it's still not fitting the narrative that he's trying to. No. Like create. Yeah. What? A nine-year-old and a four-year-old. And a four-year-old. And their mother. And a nine-year-old. Oh my God.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
If there's anything I've learned so far this year, it's that small habits make a huge difference. There are some habits of mine that simply don't cut it anymore. I pretty much used to live off of coffee and manifesting. And while that works out, it turns out that, yeah, my body needs actual nutrients too. And that's why we love Symbiotica.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
That happens to me all the time, so I always, always, always just click on my little GoodRx app before I head to the pharmacy, show it to the pharmacist, and she's like, oh! I got a coupon for you. She sings it just like that. Don't let allergies slow you down. Save big on allergy medications this season with GoodRx. Go to GoodRx.com slash morbid. That's GoodRx.com slash morbid.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Like, excelled in school. Yes. One of the top students. Great athlete.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
It's weird because I thought this was just for like, you know. A mission.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Wow. Listen to you just remembering the TikTok name.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Can we go back for a second? He pick up the trash?
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
that's a great he pick up the fucking trash that's a great question that's a great question what about all those down feathers are those good for the yeah that's polluting the environment what about all the trash you were so upset about and you just left the tent that's not biodegradable yeah so fuck you so like fuck none of this is for what you're saying it's for yeah
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Yeah, because I was watching Yellow Jackets and then I follow Kate anyways. Yeah. Just our friend Kate. Just our friend. Hey, Kate. Anybody I follow on TikTok, I'm like, we're friends. And she recommended it. She was like, it's very, like, similar vibes. And it is. It's, like, sort of similar. It's, like, got, like, folky horror vibes. That's the thing.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Yeah, I think it is Where the Devil Roams.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
It's really beautiful in like a weird way. Beautifully shot. Beautifully shot and like...
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
It sounds like he just had an urge to kill people and follow through on that urge.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Yeah, like he literally walked around a couple of scenes and picked up shell casings. Picked up shell casings. Like got rid of witnesses in another scene.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
That's the thing. Like the defense attorney there wants to point to the jury as having it be their fault. It's like, no, it's actually a system failure. Like it is most of the time. Very much a systemic failure here. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And he was just pointing to what would continue to be a systematic failure because a lot of times people who are proven criminally insane do go to these hospitals and they do get let out. Yeah. And the whole fucking issue starts up again. Yeah. The cycle begins again. Right. So it is a systematic failure.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
So there's that. I did look up a couple things because I just needed to know for my own psyche last night.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
He got to live his life out that long and die of natural causes.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
A lot of times actual justice is just really never served.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Yeah, it is. I mean, at least he went to prison, but just the fact that... Somebody like that shouldn't have had access to put an ad out for a wife. No. Like, I don't understand. Obviously, like, prison shouldn't be this, like, horrible, like... Let's throw away the key. You know, yeah. Like, the whole part is supposed to be. It should be for reform to a degree. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
And we've had that conversation so many times. But I just don't feel like somebody of that level of, like, lack of humanity should be able to put a fucking ad out for a wife. Exactly. I totally agree. Like...
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Well, that was a crazy tale. Yeah, that's Herbert Mullen. With all that being said, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you go to prison after murdering a bunch of people and then place an ad in your local paper saying that you want to sire children. Gross. With an Irish wife. Yeah, so specific.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
He looks very normal when he's younger. When he's younger, yeah. You can see why people got into his car and landed him a hand.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Interesting that he had to stay in for hippies. Yeah. Because like everything that you've described about his personality so far, like as far as, you know, like new age thinking and psychedelics is pretty hippie coded.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Yeah. And he knows what he's doing is wrong.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Hey. It's morbid. It sounded like you said smorbid. Smorbid. Smorbid, bitch.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
That's truly wild work. Out of all the ones he's doing to blame the pot. I'm like, bro, you were doing LSD. Yeah. And even still, like that probably fucked you up, but it wasn't totally all of the drugs fault.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Funny. We've just been roasting each other all day. I love the ha ha ha ha. I was like, ha ha, you're so funny.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Yep. How old is he at this point? It's like in his early 20s. Yeah, early 20s. I couldn't fucking tell you. Early, like mid-20s, I would say. I have no idea who gave me my first joint. And also, what? It's not that guy's fault. It's not that. You took the joint. You smoked it. And that's not even the fucking problem here.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Sometimes the stressors just start coming and they don't stop coming. You know, you wake up late, your coffee machine's broken, you go to go get a coffee, and then the line's too long, and then you're late for work. There's no off switch for daily stress, unfortunately. But there's good news. You can take control of supporting your body's response to it.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
With Ritual Stress Relief featuring BioSeries technology, you can support your body's natural cortisol response for all-day support. I absolutely love Ritual. I actually take their Symbiotic Plus Gut Health, and this is a lot about me, but I'm a more regular girly when I take that. I've noticed a big old difference.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
But let's talk a little bit more about the Stress Relief BioSeries technology, because that's also pretty impressive. It is designed to optimize the release of a trio of clinically studied ingredients to help the body manage stress. I am obsessed with Ritual, and I think you will be too. Guys, the juggle is real, but don't just respond to stress. Get ahead of it with stress relief from Ritual.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Get 25% off your first month at ritual.com slash morbid. Start Ritual or add stress relief to your subscription today. That's ritual.com slash morbid for 25% off. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Guys, let's talk numbers.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Traditional in-person therapy can cost anywhere from $100 to $250 per session. That's a lot of money, and that adds up fast. But with BetterHelp Online Therapy, you can save on average up to 50% per session. With BetterHelp, you pay a flat fee for weekly sessions, saving you big on cost and time. Therapy should feel accessible, not like a luxury.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
With online therapy, you get quality care at a price that makes sense and can help you with anything from anxiety to everyday stress. Your mental health is worth it, and now it's within reach. I think especially now is a wonderful time to start therapy. The world is
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
cuckoo bananas nuts crazy baby and you need somebody to talk to about it i get that well listen with over 30 000 therapists better help is the world's largest online therapy platform having served over 5 million people globally it's convenient too you can join a session with the click of a button helping you fit therapy into your busy life plus you can switch therapists anytime i love therapy you'll love therapy and your well-being is worth it
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Visit betterhelp.com slash morbid today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash morbid.
Morbid
Episode 661: Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2)
Because the last time we recorded was yesterday. I'm trying to think, did literally anything happen? What can we talk about, guys? What do you guys want to talk about? Raise your hand if you have something for the class.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Hey weirdos, it's Ash. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about the spooky perks of Wondery Plus. It's like having a skeleton key that unlocks ad-free listening and early access to new episodes. So don't wait, try Wondery Plus today. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
It seemed that anybody who had spent time with either of them strongly encouraged Karen to keep her distance from this couple, but she never seemed to take anybody's concerns too seriously. Now, when Detective Klotz was able to get a hold of Karen's mother, Barbara Miller, just a few days later, it turned out that Karen's landlord had been right. She was from Georgia.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And according to her mother, after graduating high school just a few years earlier, Karen sold her car, and she and her friend Debbie headed out to California. She had dreams of becoming an actress. Of course. Which just ruins you.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
She spent a few unproductive months in L.A., and then she made her way to Santa Barbara. She found a job as a housekeeper. And Barbara told Detective Klotz that Karen was just fine in Santa Barbara. She said she had a steady job, she was taking acting lessons, she even started dating this nice guy.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
But unfortunately, all of that fell to the wayside when a friend talked her into moving to San Francisco with them. According to Barbara, moving to San Francisco was the beginning of her daughter's downfall.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yeah, like figuring it out, making moves to become an actress.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Now, in San Francisco, she found the exciting life that she had probably hoped to find in Hollywood. But instead of actors and celebrities, her new life was populated by hippies and drifters, people who seemed to be happy living on the fringes of society.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Damn. Yeah. Now for Karen, this move from her exciting life in San Francisco and back to a slower life back home in Georgia. Very different. Very different. Very difficult. And ultimately just not a transition that she was going to make long term. So as soon as she was well enough to get back on her feet, she made her way back to San Francisco. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
That's www.ynab.com slash morbid. Life is short. Spend it well with YNAB. Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And this is Morbid. This is morbid. It's morbid. Wait, at the top of the show, I have an apology. Whoa. I never listen to morbid because I don't really enjoy hearing my own voice very much. But I listened to the intro of a couple episodes yesterday. The intros are my favorite part.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Throughout the rest of 1980, Barbara's communication with Karen was pretty sporadic. And even when Karen did call, there was a chance that she would be high or drunk, like she was partying a lot. And their conversation would quickly devolve into an argument, probably from Barbara's concern.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
So that being the case, Barbara was hopeful when Karen called in early January 1981 to tell her that she decided to get her life together and that she found this new apartment that she was planning to share with a young couple. Barbara was like, okay, like, that sounds nice. Yeah. And Karen told her mother that her new roommates, Susan and Michael Carson, were very religious.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
But aside from that, she didn't offer any more information. But her mom is hearing this news and she's used to hearing from Karen when she's under the influence of something. Yeah. And now she says she's got this new apartment. She's met this couple. They're religious. She's probably like, okay, like you're slowing down, you know?
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
But the last time Barbara talked to her daughter was on Valentine's Day, which also happened to be Karen's birthday. And by then, whatever hope or optimism Barbara had sensed in Karen's voice the last time they talked was completely gone. Oh. She recalled Karen telling her, Mama, this is haunting. She said, Mama, I have this feeling I won't ever live to see 30. I just have a funny feeling.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And when I have feelings like this, they usually come true.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And just, like, the fact that she knew that somewhere in her body and mind. She just knew. Like, that's disturbing. Yeah. Yeah. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. You guys, life is not about resolutions that just fade away by February. It's about picking up that pen and becoming the author of your own life.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And you can think of therapy as your editorial partner, helping you write new chapters and create the meaningful story that you deserve to live. I am absolutely a huge fan of therapy. I think it's great when you want to start working on yourself, but it's even better when you want to continue to build upon the work that you've already done.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
I have benefited so greatly from therapy in 2024, and I have a lot more work to do in 2025 that I'm excited to do. And if you're thinking about starting therapy, BetterHelp is a great place to start. Because BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, they have served over 5 million people worldwide.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
You can access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. And you can easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. It's taken me a few times to get the right therapist, and once you get it right, you will absolutely know. Write your story with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash morbid today to get 10% off your first month.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
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Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
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Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Traditional security systems only take action, by the way, after somebody has already broken in, and that's too late. But SimpliSafe's ActiveGuard outdoor protection can help prevent break-ins before they even happen. The AI cameras are backed by live professional monitoring agents who monitor your property, and they can detect suspicious activity.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
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Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
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Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Barbara tried to convince Karen to come back home to Georgia. She was like, we'll figure it out. Like, come home.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
I know. Barbara really tried. She's like, I'll take care of you. Yeah. But Karen said no. She said she wanted to stick it out in San Francisco for just a few more months to see if she could turn things around for herself. No.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
According to Barbara, she was having a hard time hearing her daughter during that last phone call because there was a lot of background noise going on wherever she was calling from. And eventually Barbara was like, where are you? And Karen said she was in a payphone booth at the back of the restaurant and said, don't worry, they can't find me back here. Okay, that would fuck me up.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
The statement was confusing, first of all, and obviously alarming. But when Barbara asked what the fuck she meant by that, Karen just quickly changed the subject. And very shortly after that, they said goodbye and ended the call.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
The last time she ever spoke to her. She tells you she doesn't think she's going to live to see 30 and that whoever can't find her where she is. Yeah, that's really concerning. So to Detective Klotz, the story was a pretty familiar one. Small town kid moves to California, has got these dreams of making it really big, find out that things are a lot harder than they anticipated.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
He had a last name now. Mm-hmm. So the more that he and his partner asked around, the more they discovered just how many people disliked Karen's roommates. Karen's friend Katie Hudson told investigators, I can't stand to be in the same room with that woman. Susan embodied evil. Oh, fuck her. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Why the fuck can't I stop singing to you people?
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And Katie's boyfriend, Greg Brewster, kind of saw Susan and Michael in a slightly more sympathetic light. He agreed they were very strange characters, but he said he also found them interesting.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And especially his girlfriend says they're evil. And he says they're interesting. They're interesting, but they're weird. Yeah. Yeah. According to Greg, Michael Carson had written a manuscript titled The Way, which he wanted to have published eventually. The book was like...
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
I do. But every intro lately is me singing horrifically. And I'm like, we might lose listeners. Our downloads might be down. I was like, oh, God, I'm going to get cited for this. I didn't even know that you did that much. I think there's three in a row where at first it was J-Lo, then it was you. Hottest ideas. I won't sing it. Here you go. I know, I can't help myself.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
sort of an autobiography it detailed how he and susan had met in arizona in 1977 and then they embarked on this back tripping backpacking trip to europe tripping back tripping they probably were back tripping they 100 were because yeah they were yeah they went back trip i was just about to say it again because that's what they were doing they went back tripping to europe and they became drug smugglers there of course
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
When they came back to the U.S., Susan and Michael started traveling a circuit between California and Arizona, trafficking drugs and promoting, I guess what you could call, I mean, a very bizarre blend of mysticism and a very poorly informed understanding of Islam. They, like I said earlier, they picked little bits of Islam, but even the parts that they picked, they were not... Twisted.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yeah, they twisted them. It wasn't actual...
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
It's very culty. You know, it's very culty.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
So through more interviews with Karen's friends and her acquaintances, a picture of Michael and Susan Carson started to emerge. Nobody seemed to know anything about their backgrounds other than the fact that they came from Arizona. But everybody got the sense that they both seemed to be suffering from some kind of mental illness. Yeah, it certainly sounds that way. Yeah, they were not all there.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
To Karen's friend Lillian, a registered nurse, Michael and Susan, she said, seemed like classic schizophrenics and that the moment she met them, she got the feeling they were dangerous. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's scary. Yeah. I can understand why people would get that feeling. And obviously, like, you don't want to judge a book by its cover, but you see them.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Sometimes you see someone and regardless of what they look like, you get a feeling from them. Exactly. Looking at the two of them, you get a feeling from them that they do embody evil. Yeah. You looking?
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
The problem, there's nothing in the eyes, actually. That's the problem. Nailed it. Thank you. Nailed it. Yes. Yes. So for the most part, it seemed that the only reason anybody even tolerated Susan and Michael's presence was because they always had, quote unquote, good drugs. Oh. Yeah. Okay. Good reason to be friends with people. Yeah. But by early 1981, even that wasn't enough.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
The good drugs would not suffice. According to Marsha Moscow, Karen's former roommate there, when she and her partner Randy came home from a vacation to Mexico, they just found Michael and Susan squatting in their apartment. Can you fucking imagine if you go on a vacation with your mans and you come back home and your old roommate's friends are squatting in your fucking place? No, I cannot.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Also, neither of them seemed embarrassed or guilty at all about having, you know, taken full advantage of Randy and Marsha.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
On the contrary, even after Randy and Marsha came back from Mexico, Michael and Susan were like, yeah, we are not going to leave. We're just here. We live here. We're just here. That's a no for me. And it's not like they were just like regular. Well, first of all, they weren't roommates. They were squatters. Yeah. They weren't just regular squatters, I guess.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
I'm like a fucking theater kid. I think it's great. I hope that other people feel that because I was listening and I was like, oh no, I'm ostracizing my community.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
They were worse because their constant presence became a very serious source of stress for Marsha in particular. I would lose my mind. They would just endlessly rant about the coming apocalypse all the time. Yeah. And she was like, I can't handle this. Like, we gotta go. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yeah. I would cry a lot. And this was like before people went to therapy. So can you even imagine? I'm going to therapy about the end of the world right now. I can't imagine. Yeah. Not having that at my fingertips. For real. Even though there were people who were like, most people were just put off by Susan and Michael Carson.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
There were some people within their social circle who had actually had very intense confrontations with them. That's not shocking to me at all. Yeah, no, me neither. When Karen's friend Sybil learned of her murder, her first response was, I'll bet Susan and Michael did it. If you have anyone in your social circle that you'd be like, oh yeah, they definitely did it. My goodness.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yeah, move away from that social circle.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
According to Sybil, she said Michael bore a strong resemblance to Charles Manson in both appearance and personality.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
She said he looks like him and he acts like him. But personality, yeah. So that's scary. He was very intense, very distant. And it was in a way that made her feel deeply uncomfortable. But it was actually Susan who she really disliked. That seems to be a pattern here. It sure does.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
One night when they were all hanging out at a friend's apartment, Susan just out of nowhere accused Sybil of being a, quote, witch consorting with the devil. And she screamed at her, throw your necromancer book away. You're trying to open the gates of hell. And she didn't yell back at her. Hell yeah. I think she said. Let's party.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Is that my aura? Oh, my God. Is that my aura? Is that, like, what you first thought? But genuinely, like... That was like an unserious way of looking at it. In reality, what the fuck? I would cry.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
But a few weeks before the murder, Sybil could clearly see that Susan and Michael's influence on Karen was like...
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
you know growing growing exactly karen came to sybil's apartment and declared emphatically that she had found the lord and she insisted that sybil abandoned her quote-unquote witchcraft and magic or she would be quote condemned to hell oh boy okay this is when it gets gnarly exactly keep it to yourself to yourself karen had always seemed pretty naive and innocent to sybil and probably more than a little too trusting so when she recognized that karen had become
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Now, by all accounts, Karen Barnes was exactly the sweet, naive young woman that everybody said she was. That makes me sad. I know. And as far as Detective Klotz could tell, it was most likely that naivete that got her into trouble, unfortunately.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yeah. And I don't even like to say naivete.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
She was trusting. Yeah. According to one friend, Karen always went for the underdog. And as soon as she met Susan and Michael Carson, she was mesmerized and just wanted to help them. That's all she wanted to do.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
They hunt them down, exactly. Within a few days of the murder, Susan and Michael Carson jumped to the top of the suspect list, at least as far as Detective Klotz was concerned. But the problem was, in that kind of culture that really existed on the fringes and, you know, was probably pretty resistant to cooperating with the police, finding leads and evidence felt increasingly impossible.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
That's the thing. Not everybody wanted to talk. Most of Karen's friends felt like it was entirely possible that the couple had something to do with her death, but none of them even knew their last names, much less where the hell they were. And Detective Klotz and his partner would end up spending more than a year chasing leads that inevitably just went nowhere. Wow.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
As they and the other investigators on Karen's case searched San Francisco for their suspects, Susan and Michael Carson were already hundreds of miles away. They had hitchhiked north through California and into Oregon. I said it correctly.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
The Oregon Trail. I can't believe it.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
I refuse. In their hitchhiking travels through Lake Creek, Oregon, they met a couple who told them about this abandoned cabin in this very remote section of the Cascade Mountains. They said you could definitely stay there for a while and you could avoid most, if not all, of society. Whoa.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
We're in the thick of it right now. It's December 13th at the moment. We're in the thick of drones.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Can you give me the coordinates? After being pointed towards an old logging trail that led into the mountains... They hiked into the forest and eventually found said cabin, which I don't really know if you want to go to there because it wasn't much more than a one-room shack, and they said it probably would have been blown over at the slightest wind.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
A little too remote for me.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Despite the shitty accommodations, they actually stayed at that cabin in the Cascades for over a year, surviving on whatever they could grow from their garden, their vegetable garden, and whatever food they could scrounge from their occasional trips into town.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
During this period, and obviously I think because they were so isolated, their paranoia and their bizarre belief system just continued to grow.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
I'm sure they're trying to one up each other.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
it's friday the 13th it's friday the 13th happy friday the 13th from the past and it's a wintry friday the 13th something about that just gives me those you know what other day it is today what dorinda medley's 60th birthday oh well my goodness happy birthday today what a day birthday to the queen to the queen anyway back to the drones what's what's your theory give me a theory
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
It's yes and. Yes. It's their scary improv. Absolutely. Yeah. And the other thing is they were emboldened by the fact that so far they had gotten away with murder. Yep. That's always the case. All throughout the year, Michael kept an eye on the regional newspapers, certain they would be named as suspects in Karen's death, but he never saw the slightest hint that the police were searching for them.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And even on his occasional trips back to Los Angeles or San Francisco, where he was sure he'd hear something, seemed like nobody suspected either him or Susan as the killers. So in the winter of 1981, after an altercation with a couple who lived in a cabin further down the mountain, who Susan had accused of worshipping Satan. That seems to be her thing. Yeah, it's just kind of her vibe.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
It's kind of her vibe. It's like what she does. Michael and Susan decided, you know, maybe it was time for them to move on from this cabin. Since they'd been vigilant about checking the papers throughout the year, they were, again, very confident that they weren't suspects in Karen's murder.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
So they found no reason why they shouldn't return to California or at least move around the Pacific Northwest freely. Eventually, Michael and Susan made their way to Alder Point, which is a tiny town in Northern California. The population is less than 100. Whoa. Yeah, or at least it was at the time.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
I know. Interesting choice. But in the past, Alder Point had been known as a stop along the Northwestern Pacific Railroad. But by the 1970s, any industry that had been there was long gone. And all that was really left was a few weed farms deep in the woods. So I think the thing that they figured was, I mean, weed is illegal at the time. Nobody's really going to bother anybody around there.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
That makes sense. Once there, Michael and Susan found work on a marijuana farm, and they spent their days harvesting, tending to the crops, hauling the plants back to the farmhouse to be processed. As enthusiasts of drug culture, the work was satisfying for them. They both stayed happily on the farm for months.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
In fact, they probably would have stayed there for forever if it hadn't been for Clark Stevens.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Clark Stevens was a friend of one of the farm workers who would periodically come from San Diego to Alder Point to transport the drugs. He actually had been arrested in L.A. and was bailed out by the farm's owner, John Walker. And in exchange, Stevens signed over the title to his truck to Walker and Walker brought him on as an informal partner in the farm's business.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
As far as Susan and Michael could tell, Clark was just another Southern California dude who came north to cash in on the increasingly lucrative pot farms in Humboldt County, and they fucking hated him. From the moment they met, Clark, Susan, and Michael had been at odds over everything, and even the most casual conversations just escalated into arguments.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
As tensions on the farm continued to escalate, Susan became convinced that Clark Stevens was a demon. Like, and I know that sounds funny. No, like... She genuinely thought he was a demon.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And I'm sure there were, but they just ignored it. So things finally came to a head in early May of 1982 when Clark came back to the farm after being thrown off the property just a few days earlier. He was thrown off the property for assaulting his ex-girlfriend, which is not great.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
But John Walker, the farm's owner, had gone into town that morning, which meant that Michael and Susan were watching over the farm in case of any unwanted visitors. At first, when Clark got there, Michael said he tried to resolve the situation calmly, telling Stevens that he wasn't welcome on the farm anymore.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
But when Stevens wouldn't leave, he said things escalated, and of course, after some strong encouragement from Susan, Michael drew a .38 caliber pistol from his waistband and pulled the trigger. but the gun failed to fire. Now aware that he was in serious danger, Clark Stevens ran at Michael to try to probably disarm him.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
But Michael fired a second time and sent the bullet through Clark's lower jaw. So he immediately fell to the ground. And with Clark on the ground, Michael approached and shot him a second time in the torso and then fired a third time, hitting Clark in the head just behind the ear. Holy shit.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
later michael and susan would claim that they killed clark stevens because he was a quote demon and a quote petty witch who wanted to live off of susan's life this is fucked up no it's deeply disturbing but they acted quickly to cover up the murder they buried steven's body in a pile of chicken manure see and this is where things like that's this is where like
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And this isn't like they just said that to get some kind of insanity.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
They just said that all along the way.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And I just want to know why. I think it's people who are, I think it's aliens who have inhabited the earth.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yes. You know? Yeah. It's crazy. Well, then they went even further. They set fire to the pile to try to destroy the body. And then they just went back to the house, went back to the farmhouse, and they found that several of Clark Stevens' friends from L.A. had arrived and were looking for drugs.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
So they told the group that he was out and he wouldn't be back until later, which, again, you know you're covering up for your shit. But the group decided to stay and waited out. There are so many extra fees that you have to pay in life. Like every time I take a flight somewhere, I feel like there's like 400 fees that pop up.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Trust me, I remember living paycheck to paycheck and being like, oh, I have to pay my car payment, but also my phone bill. And I have to buy lunch today because I'm starving and I didn't make any at home. And it would have been really nice to have that overdraft of up to $200 with no fees or even getting that paycheck two days early with direct deposit.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
So days passed with no sign of Clark, causing even John Walker, who was the one who threw him out days earlier, to become suspicious. Clark's truck was still parked at the house, and it had a dead battery because that was why Susan and Michael didn't move it. It had a dead battery. Oh, damn. And it seemed out of character for him to just disappear on foot.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
So John Walker sitting there like, what the fuck is going on? Yeah. And in the days that followed, Michael and Susan just acted like nothing had happened. And they downplayed Clark's disappearance as typical for a quote unquote junkie.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Exactly. The only thing they did have going for them was that nobody wanted to draw attention to the authorities. So reporting his disappearance to the police was out of the question.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yeah. Still, the idea of going to the police, though, had been mentioned, and it was enough to make Michael start getting paranoid. So about a week after Clark Stevens' murder, Susan and Michael told John Walker that they decided to move on and just gave him some story about needing to make more money.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
They got the hell out of there. They got the hell out of Dodge. They went back to Oregon, where they stayed in a cave for a few days. Jesus. A cave, before deciding that they probably needed a better plan. Eventually, they decided that Michael should head to LA, and assuming that there was no sign the police were looking for them, they would return to the city.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
So Michael made it to LA in late May, and was almost immediately picked up by the police, but just for hitchhiking. Ah, okay. The officer who stopped him patted him down for weapons, but whether because of his inexperience or discomfort, he didn't bother patting down the area near Michael's stomach and groin and didn't find that Michael was carrying a .38 caliber pistol in his waistband.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Are you kidding me? And you took the time to pat him down for weapons but missed a fucking .38 caliber pistol? At his waistband of all places?
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Hello? Like, come on. Still, Michael assumed that they were picking him up for Clark or Karen's murder, and this was the end for him. But he was shocked when a few minutes later, the officer let him go. It turned out that the police were searching for a rape suspect who matched Michael's general description. But when it turned out to not be him, they just let him go without any further questions.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
welcome welcome well we already know they're in the ocean yeah so i think everybody would be psyched about that like i know i would oh but i'm like i don't know do you think it's possibly like another country i don't know like spying or something who the fuck knows literally nobody not even the faa i feel like somebody knows there was an interview i was just showing it to elena it was with like a i think it's a new jersey representative i forget his name but he went to this meeting about it and he walked out of the meeting because he was like they don't he goes they don't know nothing
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
So to Michael, the fact that he had not been arrested or even recognized when he was picked up by the police was thanks to some kind of divine intervention. And he took it as a sign that he and Susan were safe to start moving back towards Southern California again. But the timing, you know, couldn't have been any more perfect.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
As the couple got back on the road, John Walker's dog started digging through a pile of ash and manure on the farm and eventually unearthed a scorched human skull, which he brought back to the house for Walker to discover.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
You would never be the same.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And by that point, there were two predominant theories about Clark's death. Either John Walker had killed him or Michael Carson had done it.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And given that the body was found on his property, John Walker thought there was a pretty good chance that he would be the one to take the fall for the murder if he tried to cover it up. So despite the risk to his operation, because remember he is operating a weed farm, which is illegal...
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
yeah still he reported the discovery to the police so he did the right thing damn the fire had completely devastated clark stevens remains but remarkably his wallet somehow survived the fire and that allowed investigators to identify him without much trouble wow yeah walker told the detectives everything he knew about stevens and more importantly everything he knew about the couple he suspected of killing him michael and susan
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
According to Walker, the couple was strange, and everybody on the farm usually just referred to them as the anarchists.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And that was because they were constantly quoting from the Anarchist Cookbook, which is a 1971 manifesto that included instructions for making bombs and other weapons of guerrilla warfare. Wow, okay. Yeah, just walking around a peaceful farm quoting that. Cool.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
The other thing working against investigators was the fact that in a part of Humboldt County known almost exclusively for its marijuana industry, finding reliable witnesses who were actually willing to talk to the police was essentially impossible. So in almost no time at all, the investigation into Clark's murder went cold, and it would still be several more months before the case broke open.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
So now we have two murders. Yeah. Now, when investigators in Humboldt County were finally able to search Michael and Susan's camper van on the farm, they made several surprising discoveries that pretty much confirmed what they had already learned about the couple. Among other things, detectives found a box of .38 caliber ammunition, which was the caliber, again, used in Clark Stevens' murder.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
They found a driver's license for a man named Richard Arata, which turned out to have been stolen the previous year. Awesome. A copy of Michael's manifesto, which was titled Cry for War.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yeah. And as far as the investigators could tell, the manuscript was really not much more than ramblings of a very disturbed mind. Not shocked. But it also included a number of very alarming comments, including labeling high-profile people like President Ronald Reagan, Vice President Bush, and California Governor Jerry Brown as targets who, quote, "...must be eliminated because they are witches."
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yeah. In the days that followed the discovery of Clark Stevens' body, investigators in Northern and Southern California had been in contact and had strong reason to believe that the couple suspected in the Stevens murder weren't just suspects in the Barnes murder, had also had a handful of run-ins with the law in the past two years.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
But the problem was, at that point, Michael and Susan were off to the wind again. They're just off.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Nobody knows where the fuck they are. Yeah, they're on the yam. They're on the yam. Michael and Susan spent months just camping and hiking throughout Northern and Central California. They just retreated deeper and deeper into that shared psychosis. And their delusions were spinning wildly out of control.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
It's amateur hour. It's amateur hour.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yeah, the lack of showering. All of it. The lack of...
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
common sense good logic anything love compassion empathy anything humanity yeah any of that all those adjectives yeah at some point also susan received what she believed was a message from allah she said commanding them to go to texas to continue their war against demonic forces okay so in late fall of 1982 they started heading south to do just that
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
They reached Bakersfield, California on January 11th, 1983, where they were able to flag down a passing truck driver who actually stopped to give them a ride. The driver introduced himself as John Hellyer and asked whether they had a joint, which they did. What does that say? Cash, ass, or grass? Oh, yeah. They had grass. They had grass. They had grass.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
So later during their trial, Michael and Susan would claim that John, the driver of this truck, had attempted to sexually assault Susan and that Michael killed him in defense of his common-law wife. Incorrect. And really cool of you to try to sully that man's name in death. Yeah. Especially when you hear more about this man and what he was willing to do for them.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Like, you guys can go fuck yourselves. Because before that, Susan would tell everyone that she immediately recognized John as a powerful witch and somebody who needed to be eliminated.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Powerful witches everywhere. A few years later, they would also make a similar claim, telling a reporter that they, quote, plotted the death of Hellier because he was a witch, triple Scorpio, who was making sexual advances toward Susan Carson punishable by death under their faith.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yeah. Anyway, Michael and Susan changed their story so many times that most of the time to include their weird ideology. So it's impossible to know what really happened next. But what is known is that as the sun started to set over Bakersfield, John generously allowed them to stay at his house until the next morning rather than send them back out on the highway to keep hitchhiking.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
He was like, you know what? Like, it's the middle of the night. Like, why don't you just crash here at my fucking home? Yeah.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And the next morning, he even offered to drive them back to the main road, where they would have been more than likely to catch another ride. He was like, let me get you further out so that you can actually keep going. Yeah. He's just helping them out. Yeah. As they drove, Michael sat anxiously between John and Susan in the cab of the truck, just waiting for the right moment to pull out his gun.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
I'd be like, this could have been an email. Now everything could have been an email. God, people just try to show their importance everywhere. But now they're in Massachusetts. I know. That's the thing. I'm like, well, hey. Yeah. They spotted them in East Hampton last night, which I feel like is so like it's I feel like it could be aliens because remember that whole big UFO in Great Barrington?
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Because the previous evening, as they just laid next to each other being fucking disgusting, Susan made it very clear to Michael that John was a demon and a very powerful witch and that they needed to eliminate him.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
They're even scarier if they're all three.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Silly mistake. So the time finally arrived as far as Susan was concerned. They needed to do it that night. Yeah. But Michael was reluctant to do it right then.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yeah, exactly. I guess he just didn't want to murder a man in his own home. Yeah. But the next morning when John started to slow down as they approached just a roadside fruit stand, Michael finally produced the .38 pistol and pointed it right at John. After a few seconds of confusion, John slammed on the brakes and turned off the ignition and jumped out of the truck to run.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
But Michael was fast behind him. And once outside, they both started fighting in the grass as Michael was just trying to aim the pistol. So just like rolling around in the grass and John's trying to fight him off.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
As they were just wrestling on the ground, Hellyer spotted the guy operating the fruit stand and he yelled to the kid for help, but the teenager just stood there and stared at them in awe.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
It's like, I understand being scared in that situation, but like, you gotta do something to help here.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Run the opposite way for help. Yeah, do literally anything. Now uncertain that he could overpower John himself, Michael yelled to Susan for help, asking her to stab him. My God. And Susan ran over and did her best to. But since they were moving so quickly and sharply, she wouldn't have been able to stab John without potentially stabbing Michael.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
So instead, she tried to stick her finger in John's eye to blind him. But she unintentionally ended up jamming her finger into his mouth, which he bit down super hard on and nearly severed her stupid finger. Hell yeah. Yeah. After losing control of the gun, John managed to push Michael off of him and ran to the truck to grab his toolbox, probably trying to find something to defend himself.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
But as soon as he reached the toolbox, Michael fired a shot. The bullet grazed John's head and he dropped his toolbox. In an attempt to flee altogether, he ran around the side of the truck and unexpectedly ran right into Susan, who knocked him to the ground. And he was just laying helpless in the grass at that point. Michael approached and shot him twice in the head. That's awful. Yeah.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And he just... He was so desperate fighting for his life. And imagine, like...
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
helping all these people was help them yeah and that's what happens and went out of his way to help them like that's crazy so with john hell you're now dead the couple started walking back to the truck and that's when they spotted a car slow down which uh the car actually came to a full stop to investigate somebody in the passenger seat reached down and grabbed the toolbox off the ground and then the car sped away
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And the incident reminded Susan and Michael that not only had their crime been witnessed by that teenager at the fruit stand, but also by the driver of the car who stopped to pick up the toolbox. Yeah. And now it was only a matter of time before somebody called the police.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Unbeknownst to them, somebody already had. While John was trying to flee the situation, a delivery driver passed the scene and witnessed Michael point the gun and shoot Hellier in the head. Wow. Michael and Susan had not made it more than a few miles in Hellyer's truck and
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
when three Healdsburg police patrol cars caught up with them on Highway 101 after hearing an all-points bulletin that was put out by the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department. Susan and Michael led them on a wild high-speed chase. It changed directions up and down Sonoma and Napa counties. And in time, the Healdsburg officers were joined by officers from the Calistoga, I think it is, and St.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
That whole big UFO thing. The uncovered bridge or the covered bridge.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Helena Police Departments, as well as officers from the California Highway Patrol. During the chase, one of the officers actually crashed his patrol car, and luckily the two officers were fortunately uninjured, but it just shows you how insane this was.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
After 45 minutes of very dangerous pursuit, Michael pulled the truck off Highway 29 and actually lost control of the wheel, so they crashed into a ditch. Damn. Which is where they belong.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
jumped from the vehicle exchanged gunfire with the pursuing officers and then ran off into a nearby vineyard jesus it's insane holy shit yeah napa county sheriff's deputies eventually caught up with them it literally took a few minutes and that was as they were trying to cross a shallow river and finally both of them were taken into custody with no further incident Wow. Can you imagine?
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Like, you just go to work one day and you're like, oh, it's like a Tuesday. Yeah. It might be a crazy day. You never know, obviously, as a police officer what's going to happen. I can't imagine that you wake up just thinking this is going to happen, anticipating this.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
At the time of their arrest, Michael and Susan identified themselves to the authorities as married couple Michael and Susan Baer. But it did not take long for the authorities to discover that their real names were James Clifford Carson and Susan Thornell Hamilton. What? Now, while Susan didn't quite rename herself, she was spelling Susan with a Z, but her real name was spelled with an S. Wow.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
She was just being different. Contrary to what they said, they also were not legally married, but they considered themselves common-law husband and wife. In time, pieces of Michael and Susan's past would be unearthed, but those pieces didn't really explain the crimes that they were believed to have committed. Before meeting Susan, with an S, Michael lived with his wife and daughter in Arizona.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
He has a daughter. And I don't name her. I think she has done press, but I don't want to name her if she doesn't want to be named here. So his daughter told a reporter in 2015, when my mom met my father, he was a nice Jewish boy. Wow. Picture this guy, just a nice Jewish boy. Yeah.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yeah. When his daughter was just four years old, I guess Michael started exhibiting strange beliefs and behavior that hinted at possibly an undiagnosed mental illness. Clearly. Yeah. But he never received any treatment.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Even though I'm sure his wife and his family was urging him to. But as a result of his increasing instability, the relationship between Michael and his wife started to crumble, and they ended up divorcing. Michael's daughter said,
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Because that's what they said they were doing. And she was four when this all started to happen. He started displaying strange behavior. That's horrifying. And I think his wife was probably like, hey, we got to figure this out. Like, you got to talk to somebody.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
like disappear yeah well and before he left her some weird shit went down where like susan was a part of her life which is even scarier yeah just wait oh god this girl's mom though michael's ex-wife she knew what was like she was like no we're not she a real one she's a real one okay
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
So not long after splitting with his wife, Michael met Susan Hamilton at a Thanksgiving party of all places in 1977, and they very much hit it off. Like Michael, Susan was also married and also living in Arizona, and she too had been struggling with mental illness.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
damn at the time she was married to a newspaper executive and was raising two children i did not see this no but her life was sidelined by a schizophrenia diagnosis that eventually ended up ruining her marriage michael's daughter told the daily beast she was living this posh country club lifestyle before she started using lsd and got involved with my father this is the most bizarre thing i have ever heard same same
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
If you—there's, like, pictures of, like—I couldn't find any of—or no, I actually did see one. There's pictures of both of them before.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
you know they met each other yep oh i'm looking at him right now took the path they did absolutely bizarre she's literally like it's like what his daughter said she's a posh country club yeah early and he's a nice jewish boy and also his daughter is adorable yeah i saw one photo where she was holding up a picture of them when she was little it's like adorable
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
So despite the end of their respective marriages, Michael tried to maintain a connection with his daughter while Susan had no interest in her and actively tried to drive a wedge between Michael and his old life. Honestly, fuck her. Susan sucks ass. She does suck.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
But fuck Susan. This is horrible. During their last visit in Arizona, Susan actually attacked Michael's daughter. What? His daughter recalled, I asked her to rub my back before I went to bed and she scratched my back and she said she was going to get the demon out of me. But more frightening to me than the injury was what she was saying.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
You can fool your father, but I know you're the devil and I'm going to get this demon out of you. She's a little girl. And she asked this woman to rub her back before bedtime. She's probably like, I'm sure she missed her mom or she was uncomfortable. And she's like, can you just rub my back while I fall asleep? And this woman, it attacks her. And tells her she has a demon inside of her.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
This poor little girl, like, kids believe things and kids take things to heart. Like, this poor little girl probably thought she had a demon inside of her. And that she was the devil. Yeah. Like, what the fuck? I can't imagine what that would do to a child's psyche. Yeah, that would be it. I'd be like, fuck you. You're never seeing that child again.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Well, the incident was the last motherfucking straw for the girl's mother who severed all communication with her ex-husband and effectively went into hiding in order to avoid any future incidents like that.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
That sucks. Oh, I hate that that happened to her.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
But I'm so happy that her mom was like, fuck this.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And how scary for her mom in the 70s.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yeah. And you know that I'm sure she thinks he's dangerous because God only knows what she heard. Of course. And then this woman attacks her daughter. She's probably terrified. Oh, my God. Wouldn't be a safe place on earth for that woman. Let me tell you. I'm telling you. Not long after Susan's marriage ended, she and Michael left Arizona and they decided to travel to Europe.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
They were living off of her trust fund. She's a trust fund baby. Shut the fuck up. Susan has a trust fund everyone.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And so they go to Europe, they're backpacking, and they're just feeding on each other's increasingly bizarre beliefs and manic energy. They started experimenting with a variety of psychedelic drugs, which further distorted their thinking and exacerbated their shared psychosis. Because this isn't like drug therapy. This is them just dropping LSD all fucking here, there, and everywhere.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And they're already very mentally ill. Like, you need a doctor, you guys.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Now in time. They developed an ideology and belief system very unique to their existence, but they drew heavily on a very poor understanding of Islam and other world religions. Like we said earlier, they just bastardized a bunch of different religions.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Exactly. To just, you know, be strange.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
They did. Yeah, they just took things from other religions. Exactly. And they took things and like twisted them and made them very dangerous and awful. Yeah. To Susan and Michael, they were warriors for Allah who strove to live a life of purity. Purity?
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
committed they were committed to be honest committed to eradicating the world of demons and witches who they believed walked freely among the unsuspecting people of the world wow I'm not really sure how to respond to that. That's good. That means I think you're normal. Yeah. When they returned to the U.S.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
from Europe, they lived a somewhat nomadic lifestyle, traveling up and down the California coast and into bordering states. They were trafficking drugs and just living off the grid. Yeah, just abandoning their kids and just living off the grid. Yeah. You know, fun. And it was this lifestyle that put them into contact with people like Karen, like Clark, and John.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
No, not at all. While the press dug deeper into Michael and Susan's backgrounds, the authorities did their best to get any information out of the couple, but they would not budge. Both were being held without bail in the Sonoma County Jail for the murder of John Hellyer at this point, but they refused to speak to investigators about themselves or the crimes that they were accused of committing.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
During their arraignment in late January, it gets super bizarre, their trial in there. It gets more bizarre? Yeah, their pretrial and their trial is so bizarre. During their arraignment in late January, Michael declared that he and Susan were, quote, political prisoners. No. And were victims of a, quote, conspiracy to deprive them of their right to a public trial. False. Incorrect. Whoa.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Incorrect. The arraignment of Susan and Michael Carson was, for those involved, the first glimpse into a long journey ahead of them as far as a trial went. Nearly every statement made by their respective attorneys, or even the judge, was met with outrage, mostly from Susan, who demanded that they be tried together, and even went as far as to threaten to starve herself until that demand was met.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
So just let her. Exactly. When the judge insisted that they be evaluated by a psychiatrist, Susan again reacted with defiance and told the judge, doctors? We don't do doctors. They are like swear words to us. We do not have diminished capacity. We are perfectly sane. Debatable. Debatable.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
I'm also like, I love that doctors are like a swear word to you, which like a swear word is bad, but you're full blown murderers.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yeah. Yeah. Susan and Michael's antics in and out of the courtroom obviously had the press and all. They all watched and waited for any new updates in the case and as it unfolded in the months that followed. When they showed up for a preliminary hearing in early March, Susan and Michael stood next to each other in matching maroon jail jumpsuits, just whispering and giggling like children.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And they've killed people. Killed people. I remember that. Killed people. Yeah. And this is a preliminary hearing and they're like, LOL. So funny. Yeah. I hate it. I hate it so much. When Judge Gary Antolini threatened to sanction both of them for their disruptive behavior, Michael shouted, long live the IRA, death to the queen, and was immediately removed from the courtroom.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
I mean, now you're just saying shit. You're just being disruptive. Despite their obvious mental illness, there was no denying that they both enjoyed being in the spotlight. And they very much sought the attention of the press whenever they could get it. Yeah, they liked this. And they made provocative statements on purpose to get their attention. Of course.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
For example, when they complained to a San Francisco journalist that they weren't getting enough coverage in the San Francisco press, their statements only strengthened the investigation into their connection to the murder of Karen Baum. Of course.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
By the end of April, they had started reaching out to various journalists themselves.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
They're reaching out to various journalists around the state, and they hoped that they could use the attention of the press to promote their religious beliefs. That's the other thing. Yeah. By then, Michael and Susan had confessed to the reporters that although they were charged with only one murder, they had in fact killed three people. Wow. They just fully said that.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And they said it was for religious reasons, quote unquote.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
What about thou shall not kill?
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Like I said, cherry picked. Exactly. And... This is just awful. According to Michael, witchcraft, homosexuality, and abortion are all causes for death. And they were only following Allah's orders when they carried out their crimes.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Totally. I'm also like, that's weird because no one you met seemed to have, like, I didn't, that wasn't part of any of the story.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
I didn't see any of it. So what? Wow. In May, Michael and Susan held a press conference where they confessed to killing Karen Barnes, Clark Stevens, and John Hellyer. Michael told reporters, Susan ordered each killing as Susan sat beside him and just smiled widely. She was like, yeah, I did.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Violence is not the answer, it's the desire. That's true. According to Michael, Clark Stevens had, quote, abused Susan sexually. Nope, no evidence of that. And he said, therefore, he had to be killed. And despite their confession, when they appeared before a judge in mid-May for the murder of Karen Barnes, both entered a plea of not guilty. I'm sorry, what?
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
That book that we just did for our book club with Sabrina and Corinne. Wayward. You guys have to read that. So good. It's by, I think her name is Amelia, but it's with an E. She's coming out with a new book and I'm assuming it's probably going to come out in 2025. Sirens. Let me see if there's a release date on it.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Can we rewind to the press conference you held? Roll tape. Eventually, they would both rescind those confessions to all three murders and pleaded not guilty to all of the charges.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
It seems like, obviously, the courtroom antics and outrageous statements were an attempt to strengthen the plea deal of diminished capacity. For sure. But I... It didn't seem to work. Yeah, it didn't seem to work at all. They were unsuccessful. In January 1984, Michael Carson was deemed mentally competent to stand trial in San Francisco for the murder of Karen Barnes.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Judge Claude Parasso told a reporter, he is articulate, this court cannot find that he's incompetent, and indicated that Michael had agreed to cooperate with his defense attorney. So it's like, it's also like once they realized that they weren't going to get any kind of plea, they slowed it all down. Of course. In May, Michael and Susan went on trial before Judge Parasso and a packed courthouse.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
As had been the case up to that point, the trial was constantly derailed by the defendants. Wild and usually incoherent statements. It featured several strange witnesses, including Maude Reinersten, a so-called good witch.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Hi. Yeah. You never heard of Glenda? No. uh maude was hired by the defense to provide expert testimony on the subject of witchcraft she explained white magic has to do with the with working with the forces of nature to heal to create and to make the most of your life but on the other hand she explained black magic involves manipulating people by controlling their will
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. On June 5th, 1984, Michael and Susan were both found guilty of the murder of Karen Barnes, who they explained they killed with a frying pan in the kitchen after they claimed she, quote, used witchcraft to sap Susan of her health, power, and beauty. Nah. I said, interesting.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
In their statement to the press following the verdict, Susan's defense attorney said, it's difficult to get a jury to believe in a defense of witchcraft.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
I'm like, are you sitting there saying that Karen was a witch? Yeah. Is that what you're saying? Are you like implying that? That's definitely being implied. At the sentencing hearing a month later, Michael and Susan were both sentenced to 25 years to life.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And when asked if they had anything to say on their own behalf, Susan launched into a 40-minute rant where she paced the floor and flailed her arms wildly. And she screamed to the judge, I'm crying, so I don't care. Okay.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yeah, I also was like, that's interesting because they don't always. Michael was similarly remorseless and told the judge, I killed a witch because it's the law of God to do so when you're first attacked. I tell you that I did a righteous act to save the life of my wife. Someday the Lord will set me free. The Lord God will set me free.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
I'm really excited for that. She said it's going to be like folklore-y almost.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
spoiler alert he won't in the months that followed michael and susan were subsequently tried for the murders of clark stevens and john hellyer and very similarly disruptive trials and they were both found guilty and given additional sentences of 25 years to life for each murder i love that yeah i love when they do that oh it's great i love it
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
After the verdict in the 1985 trial for the murder of John Hellyer, Michael told reporters that he had been quote-unquote coerced into not taking the stand in his own defense and that ultimately the entire trial was unfair.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
In 2015, Michael and Susan Carson both became eligible for parole after that federal order dictated California's prison system had become overcrowded and the state needed to consider releasing elderly prisoners or those unlikely to reoffend. And at that point, Michael and Susan were both elderly.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
The families of the victims were completely outraged by the fact that their loved ones' killers might be released. But they were soon relieved when they learned that both were denied parole.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Karen Barnes' sister, Lisa, told a reporter, I'm so thrilled. I was terrified that they may let this crazy monster out due to her being a little old lady.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Exactly. And she was involved in the killings, but a lot of times it was her manipulating Michael into doing it.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
So she's dangerous, right? She doesn't need to do anything. She can just manipulate somebody else to do her bidding. At the time, neither Susan or Michael seemed particularly interested in parole. And Susan didn't even bother showing up for her parole hearings. In June of 2015, Michael canceled his parole hearing.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
He told the committee that he refused to abandon his religious beliefs. Oh, he's still on it? Yes. I thought they would have gotten rid of that. Nope. In a letter to officials at Mule Creek Prison, he wrote, You're right. Yeah. This time they were also joined by his own daughter. Wow. Who also objected to his release. She said, I truly believe that just because he's old does not make him safe.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yes, you are right. With his lack of regret and his views and the hate he's filled with and his demented mind, I think in a year or less someone else will be dead. Yes, I agree. For his own daughter to say that, that holds a lot of weight. Ultimately, his bid for parole was rejected.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
In the years since their arrest, they have been suspected of various violent crimes committed in and around California during the 70s and early 80s. Oh, I bet there's plenty. There's gotta be. But there's never been sufficient evidence produced that could actually link them to those crimes, but they are very much suspected for more.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
As of today, they both remain incarcerated and they won't be eligible for parole again until 2030, which is not really that far away. I wonder how old they are now. Yep, 74 and 83. Damn.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Keep them in there forever.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Like, a lot of these people were good people. And, like, nobody deserves to be killed.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
They like smeared these people's names too. They said that Karen was a witch, that Clark was going to sexually abuse Susan. They said the same thing about John. They said that he actually had. Yep. It's unbelievable. Yeah, they're disgusting.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Well, with all that being said, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird than any of this, because ew, don't be a bag filled with pus. Don't do it. Yuck.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
You never know. Please? You don't know. I don't know. Who knows? I have no idea. I don't even know what time is. What do you say it is?
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
All right. Well, that's a lot of banter and I enjoyed it. Again, it's my favorite part of the episode. There you go. But I'm going to be talking to you guys today about something, a wild case. We briefly mentioned this case when we were doing Crime Countdown. It was like amongst one of the numbers as we were counting down. Oh, yes. Michael and Susan Carson, the San Francisco witch killers. Yes.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
fascinating case simply because these two are characters.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Like, they're real people, obviously.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
When you just said, I don't even know how to describe it, it's indescribable who they are. Because they're like a mishmash of their own making. And it's also a tragic case because a lot of young people who didn't need to lose their lives did. So let's get into it. On the afternoon of March 7th, 1981, San Francisco detectives were called to an apartment at 825 Schrader Street. Schrader?
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Oh, that is hard. Schrader Street. It's going from sch to stra. Yeah, that's hard. But in the kitchen of the basement apartment, 23-year-old Karen Barnes was sprawled out on the floor. Her head was lying in a pool of blood, and the rest of her body was wrapped in a heavy blanket. Oof.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Whoever had killed Karen had left her body there in the corner of the room, stuffed between the counter and the stove. Ugh, that's so chilling. Yeah, like very careless. So upon his initial examination, the San Francisco coroner at the time, Dr. Boyd Stevens. Boyd! Boyd! Determined that Karen's skull had been crushed by repeated blows from a blunt instrument.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
She had also been stabbed 13 times to the left side of her face and her neck.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Well, to understand the gravity of a situation like that, move your arm 13 times. Your arm's going to get tired. And imagine being on the receiving end of that. And after, you've already been struck in the head however many times.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
But the coroner wouldn't know for sure until he completed the autopsy. But Dr. Stevens was fairly confident that the cause of death was the, quote, moon-shaped cranial injury that had crushed Karen's brain. God.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Based on the limited blood splatter on the wall, though, and the fact that there was no blood on the bottom of Karen's feet, he theorized that she had been attacked in her sleep and was most likely already dead or dying when her killer started stabbing her. My God.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
You hope that she was already dead just because to experience what she had already gone through and then to add 13 stabs to the face and neck on that? Too much. No. Based on the state of rigor mortis, though, he did conclude that Karen's body had been lying there in the kitchen for about two days. Wow. Just all by herself. Just two days. Wow.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
a lack of electrical appliances in the entire apartment. There were no lamps, no radios, no televisions, and the entire apartment seemed to be illuminated by just votive candles. So this is like a creepy scene. Oh my god, yeah. But most unusual of all was the decor.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Other than the obvious odors that accompany a dead body, there was a heavy odor of incense hanging in the air, and the only decor that the detective noticed was a large amount of strange crayon drawings on the wall. Oh, on the walls. Excuse me.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
He said they looked like they had been created by a seven year old kid. Oh, and on one of the drawings, Detective Klotz noticed a signature that read only Susan in all capital letters.
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Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yeah. And they were not drawn by a seven year old to everybody. In another room, investigators found Karen's purse, which contained her identification, but not much else. In fact, the entire apartment was missing anything resembling evidence other than Karen's body in the corner. It looked like somebody had thoroughly cleaned and emptied the apartment before police even got there. Wow.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
So speaking with the landlord, Detective Klotz learned that the apartment was actually in the process of being renovated. So that was why there was like a lack of objects and any kind of lived in feeling. Makes sense. But unfortunately, the landlord did not know a lot about Karen Barnes. She had moved in a few months earlier. He said she spoke with what he thought was a Southern accent.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Maybe she was from Georgia, he presumed. When she moved in, Karen told the landlord that it was, quote, Interesting. Yes. The statements obviously seemed a little strange. Like, that's not something you're going to run into every single day. But this was San Francisco. It's like during the time where hippies are like, you know, changing shit and whatever.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
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Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
And you're not going to like question something like that. You're like, okay. And also as a landlord, I'm sure you're like, as long as I get paid, I don't care who gives me the money. Yeah, you're like, sure, whatever. So, whatever. Otherwise, the landlord said that Karen had been a mostly responsible tenant in the short time that she lived there.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
But he did say one time recently he saw, quote, and this is a quote, two trampy looking hippies sneak out of the apartment in the early morning. But he said he didn't get a good look at either of them. And he wasn't really able to recall anything distinct about either of them. Interessante. Okay.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Now, nobody in the building had heard or seen anything strange coming from Karen's apartment in the last few days. So Detective Klotz and the other homicide detectives started the slow and very painstaking process of trying to reconstruct Karen's history and current lifestyle from what they could deduce from friends and acquaintances.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Most of those friends and acquaintances interviewed early on in the investigation didn't have much to offer to investigators, but eventually Detective Klotz did find his way to Randy Jacobson and Marsha Moscow, and they were a couple that Karen had been staying with just before she moved into that apartment where she was found.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
According to Randy and Marsha, in the weeks before she moved into her new apartment, Karen had been spending a lot of time with a couple that they only knew as Michael and Susan. Randy and Marsha said the couple were transients. They were traveling up and down the California coast. They were selling weed. And they grew that weed in Humboldt County, which I think was in your last case.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Yeah, it was. Yeah, lots of weird California names.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
Susan and Michael had described themselves as Muslims. Spoiler alert, they're not. Yeah. Like, they cherry-picked certain things from different religions and, like you said, bastardized them. Made their own really, like, twisted religion. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
But according to Marsha, any time they stayed at Randy and Marsha's apartment, quote, the stringy-haired woman spent half her time in the closet talking to Allah or meditating in the bathtub with her husband. Interesting. So they're strange characters. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers
She also said that Susan and Michael explicitly rejected more modern aspects of society, like driver's licenses, social security cards, and even electricity. And they spent probably 99% of their time talking about the dangers of witches and witchcraft. Huh. Rude. Rude. Rude. Personally offended.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
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Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
It's time to shift the focus from doing it all to knowing that we're better when we ask for help. I absolutely love therapy. I just started doing therapy again, and it is a game changer. I always feel a
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Just having that one place to go once a week, once every other week, whatever it is, just to chat about what's going on in my life and kind of download it all and actually have a place where I can really dissect the different things that I'm going through. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, and it's serving over 5 million people worldwide.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
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Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
When it's something that like heals a part, you know? Yeah, exactly. I just started trying to learn. I got like a keyboard. It's hard.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
So his name is sometimes rendered Guy or Guido. Was a Christian martyr, I know, from Sicily. I know. His surviving...
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
hagiography obviously yeah that is pure legend blah blah i don't know if he's a patron saint he's the patron saint of dance let's i think we can all agree let's go with that yeah exactly it is yeah it is also led to vitus being considered the patron saint of dancers and entertainers in general he is also said to protect against lightning strikes animal attacks and oversleeping that's sick of him
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
I appreciate that. He does not guide me. I'm oversleeping all the time.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
It's like a better version of the witch trials. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
What? Well, I feel like they probably were aching from dancing. Yeah. You ever take a Zumba class?
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
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Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Thrive Market is my go-to online grocery store for getting all my healthy essentials delivered, and I don't even have to leave my couch. I don't know about you, but I want to be able to pronounce the ingredients on my grocery labels. I am currently obsessed with the Goodles mac and cheese. The Goodles noodles are so good. They're super high protein.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
And I made like a healthy girl hamburger helper the other night with those Goodles noodles, and I will not shut up about it. They also have so many on-site filters that make it simple to shop by your needs, whether it's gluten-free snacks, high protein meals, or non-toxic cleaning products.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
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Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
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Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Yeah. Well, you've been making music since like 1998. Yeah. Well, I mean, since you were a kid, but officially.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
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Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Scam Factory early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
So you just have to dance your way into heaven, that's all.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
It's a path. It's a religious path we're following.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
This is not a sanitary time. It's never a good time to bite anybody.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
It's unfortunate for them. I know. I feel like up close, aren't they really cute? Like, their faces? Their faces are kind of cute.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
And again, there wasn't a lot to do back then. There certainly wasn't. So why not dance? Yeah, there really wasn't.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
It feels pretty awesome, to be honest. They were slithering.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
But you know what? We'll have our memories.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Or you could just leave the nunnery by saying you fucked the devil. Yeah. It's really a way out, actually.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
I slept with the devil. I fucked the devil. I got to go. My bad. Yeah. I love it. All right. Well, this is a weird shift now, but we're going to play some Would You Rather.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
It's not even dancing plague related. Would you rather fuck the devil?
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
I should have put some of those in there. Yeah. But you can both answer because I didn't read these to you yet. So would you guys rather be haunted by a ghost that only you can see or hear whispers that no one else can hear?
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
I think it would make a lot of people crazy. Yeah. Misophonia or not.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Just be like, oh, hey, you're here. Let me tell you something cool that happened today. I think I agree with you guys. I'd take the ghost. All right, number two. Would you rather live in a house that rearranges itself every night or in one where the doors occasionally lead to other dimensions?
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
I'm going house rearranged because I can put it back. I don't know what these other dimensions have in them. What if there's nuns meowing and trying to fuck priests? What if I fall in and I can't get back into my house to rearrange my furniture? Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Yeah, that's true. That's a lot of work. I know, but dimensions are scary. It's bad to your floors. It is bad to your floors. That's real.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
I back it. All right, number three. Would you rather live in a world where every book you open transports you into its story or where every movie you watch traps you inside its universe until the movie ends? It's kind of like the same thing.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Same thing with movies because we watch fucked up movies a lot. That's true. I don't want to go in some of them. That's true.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Yeah, I get that. I was thinking story because when you're reading, you're kind of like making like your own visuals.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
So it'd be kind of cool to see that. I haven't done psychedelics, so that would be my way of doing it.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Yeah, I get that. Because then you can pick like hour and a half, two hours. Yeah, like I'm not going to jump into like. Maybe not a Harry Potter movie.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
All right. Last one. Would you rather live in a world where night never falls, so it's basically just like eternal daytime, or an eternal night where you would never witness the sun again?
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
You got to meet the right Gen Zs. I'm a zillennial, so I like- She's on the cusp. I like to say I'm a millennial because Gen Z gets a lot of hate.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
When it glistens in the snow, so it's pretty.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Oh, I have to be freezing when I'm sleeping. Me and my husband get in fights all the time. I've been turning off the heat lately. He's like, stop doing that. It's like 60 degrees in this room.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
And John's like, why? It's February. Like what? I'm like, yeah, it's the science fact that you sleep better when you're cold.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. That's the last one. I pick Eternal Night because I'm a night person, but I still like the sun, so I'd be a little bummed, I think. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
That's one thing I wish I experienced. I remember Blockbuster like a little bit from being like five and six. Yeah. Yeah. Beyond that, no.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Yeah. Yeah. It's like a cozy vibe. Well, going back to the music, how would you say your relationship with music has kind of changed and evolved throughout all the years that you've been doing it?
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
And this is a special episode of Morbid Everybody. It's special. We have a guest. We do. Yay. Andrew McMahon on the show. You might know him from one of his several bands. We've got Something Corporate, Jack's Mannequin, or Andrew McMahon in the Wilderness.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Because you can look back on every stage of your life and there's a song for it or an album for it, really.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
And it darkens down because there was like three generations of us at that show because it was – Elena, me, and my little cousin. So it's like, I started listening to you when I was like six.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
And then still do. Because I was like, you're listening. And my cousin's like three, singing like I woke up in a car. So it does trickle down.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Yeah, of course. Thanks for being in the studio.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Well, finally to transition us into like our world of morbid and macabre. You have a song with your band, something corporate called Me and the Moon. Yes. It's a little more eerie and haunting. It's like not the typical style for you. So tell us a little bit about where the idea for that song came from, like how it came to be.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
So are we. So getting into the questions, I did read that you are somewhat of a child prodigy when it came to the piano. What drew you to the piano so young?
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Missing out on a show that everyone is talking about just simply is not an option for me. I'm constantly signing up for this streaming service or that one. I have like 400 gajillion. And then a few months later, I realized that I've still been paying for the service way after I finished the show and I actually don't watch anything else on that network.
Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
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Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
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Morbid
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Cancel your unwanted subscriptions today and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to rocketmoney.com slash morbid today. That's rocketmoney.com slash morbid. rocketmoney.com slash morbid. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I have such an incredible support system around me. I'm so lucky to have a husband who supports literally everything I do.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I feel like a lot of times we hear about people's red flags. You know, red flags are what we should avoid. But what if we focused more on looking for green flags in friends and partners? Like, the good things about them. The way that they show up for you. The way that they, you know, do acts of service because that's your love language. Or...
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And this is Morbid. Brought to you by allergies. Yeah. What the fuck? It's like winter. I didn't know that allergies existed in the winter. Yeah. It's not even like winter. It is winter.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
There's no safe like SimpliSafe. When the car finally did come to a stop, they were in a remote area on the Huntington Beach Bluffs, which is about a 15 minute drive from where he picked her up. 15 minutes is such a long time in a situation like that. Oh my God. That must have felt like a hundred years.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
She tried to run as soon as the door was open, but he caught her by the arm and dragged her to an area near the edge of the bluffs where he forced her to sit down and smoke a joint with him. Jesus Christ. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
So as he just tried to make small talk with her at that point on the bluffs, luckily, a park ranger a few hundred yards below them spotted the pair and decided just to head up to see what was going on. Something seemed off to the ranger.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Well, and I think it's also the fact that he preys on young people.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Yeah, something's up. Well, he also looks like a fucking predator. Yeah. He does. And he's also like pushing young girls into weird situations. Yeah. But it's just the fact that they actually acted, too. That's the thing, yeah. And later we'll see there were people who saw things and just looked the other way.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
He's like, what's up with this? Yeah. So he carefully climbed up to the top of the bluffs and moved really quietly along the way to make sure he didn't draw any attention to himself. And when he got close, he could smell the weed in the air. So when he reached the area where they were sitting, he finally made his presence known and was like, hey, what's up here? And Alcala answered.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
He said, we were just hiking and now we're taking a break. But he had barely finished his sentence when Julie blurted out that Alcala had kidnapped her. Good for her. Brought her there against her will and was now making her, forcing her to smoke pot with him.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Now, uncertain which of the two he should believe because he doesn't know either of these people. You know, I don't know.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
But like, whatever. But he arrested them both and brought them to Huntington Beach Police Station. At the station, Rodney and Julie were separated and they were each separately questioned. And Alcala stuck to his story, telling the officer that he and Julie had gone for a hike and actually she was the one who supplied the joint and said they should smoke together.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Wow. Julie, meanwhile, stuck to her own story, which was the truth, explaining that she had accepted a ride from this man. He refused to drop her off at school and he had taken her out in the bluffs against her will and also made her smoke weed when she didn't want to.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Thinking that she might be lying in order to avoid punishment for being out with an older man and smoking pot, the officer also didn't know who to believe. But luckily, he ran a background check on Rodney Alcala, and the result came back identifying him as a fucking sex offender on parole.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
So police released Julie to her parents, and Rodney was booked on charges of supplying drugs to a minor, kidnapping, and violating parole.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
And nobody even believes her. And nobody's believing her. I'm like, talk about trauma. And like a wake up call to the fucking way that the world works is you're a woman. So unfortunately, people probably aren't going to believe you most of the time. So fucked up. That's crazy. Yeah. He spent a month, Rodney spent a month, awaiting a hearing.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
And when he went before the judge the day after Christmas in 1974, for some reason, the kidnapping and drug charges were dropped. I gotta go. Leaving only a parole violation, so he got a sentence of two and a half years at the California Institution for Men in Chino. Are you kidding me? I am not. The legal system failed all of these women for a very long time.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
What? What? It's unreal. That's insane. It's unreal. Oh, just wait for this next part. Oh, God. So in July 1977, he was paroled from prison for the second time with the requirement that obviously he check in regularly with his parole officer on a weekly basis.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
I feel like you're making me think that I am sniffly, but I don't even know if I am, but I'm now like, it's a weird placebo that's going on. Yeah. You're like feeling sympathy sniffles. Oh my God. I have sympathy sniffles.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Surprisingly, after just two visits, one, two, with the parole officer, Alcala, a registered sex offender with a history of violence and a known flight risk, was granted permission by that same officer, that parole officer, to travel to New York to quote-unquote visit some relatives. And a week later, he left California for New York. Where remember, he's already gone and terrorized women.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
They just don't happen to know that yet.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
That's wild. It only gets worse. How Alcala spent his brief time in New York is mostly unknown, but it is strongly suspected that while there, he committed his second murder, that of 23-year-old Ellen Hover. She was the daughter of Manhattan nightclub owner Herman Hover.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
She was the last of New York's high society class, and her disappearance in July 1977 was a major news event across New York City. Given her social status and her family's wealth, investigators actually assumed that Ellen's disappearance would be followed by some kind of ransom demand. But when no demand came, they were forced to consider that she was most likely a victim of foul play.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Early in the investigation, Ellen's friend Richard Middlemark told detectives that he actually had made plans with Ellen on July 13th to go to a Broadway show, the two of them. And when he called to confirm, she told him that she was going to have lunch at Bloomingdale's with a photographer. And she expected to be home by 4 p.m. that same day.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
She never mentioned the photographer's name, but in their search of Ellen's apartment, investigators found the name John Berg written on a calendar beside the date that she went missing. John Berger. John Berg. A friend who was with Ellen earlier that day said he spotted her talking to a quote,
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
most likely rodney alcala i mean that describes him when her friend asked who the quote-unquote freaky looking guy was ellen replied oh he's all right he's a photographer Oh, man. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Nearly a year later in June of 1978, investigators, actually with the help of a New York psychic, discovered the skeletal remains of Ellen Hover buried beneath a pile of rocks in North Tarrytown, which is a small town about 30 miles outside of Manhattan. So she was far from home, too, which just breaks your fucking heart. Oh, that's so sad.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Based on the condition of the remains, when they were discovered, arriving at an actually conclusive cause of death was next to impossible, but the medical examiner did suspect strangulation to be the cause because there was damage to the hyoid bone.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Based on the medical examiner's report, Ellen's missing person case was transferred to the homicide division, but there was little evidence to work with, and at that point, the case started going cold. Yeah. But don't worry, I will tell you that things work out there. Oh, good. I think it's part three we get to it. Okay. So in the meantime, Rodney Alcala returned to L.A.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
late in the summer of 1977, where he would embark on a murder spree that would result in the deaths of at least six more women. Holy shit. And I say at least because to this day, they're still not sure how many people he killed. Wow. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Lilo, not full-blown Lilo, is here. Yeah. But like her distant relative.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
So when Rodney went back to California, he moved back in with his mommy and found a job as a typesetter with the Los Angeles Times, claiming on his resume that he had held several similar positions in the past. False, because during the timeframes he provided, he was literally in prison. And apparently no one looked into that. Cool. But he quickly settled into the workplace culture.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
He amped up his charm. He mingled with the women in the office every chance he got. One of his former co-workers said he would talk about going to parties in Hollywood. It seemed like he knew famous people. But not everybody was so charmed.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Another co-worker, Sharon Gonzalez, told a reporter that Rodney would show her photographs from his portfolio of girls and young women, and many of those girls and young women were posed nude. She said he was very open about his sexuality. And when she asked him why he had taken the photos, this is disgusting. He told her that their parents had hired him to do so. Oh, my God.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
No one's parents hired you to take naked pictures of their children. Are you kidding me? Nobody hired you for that. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? Jesus Christ. So, while he was settling into his new job at the newspaper, on the other side of the country, 18-year-old Jill Barkham was on her way to LA from Oneida, New York. She was eager to start a new life on the West Coast.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Exactly. But I'm not the one that's going to be talking much, so that's good. I'm going to be talking a lot because we are on part two of Rodney Alcala, who is such a shit stain. I just have to say at the top of this, I have been having the worst time falling asleep just because of this case. Oh, yeah. The details are just running through my brain at night, and I need to figure out a way to.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
She was one of 11 children in her family. She was the middle child, and by the time she finished high school, she was very determined to just find an adventure far away from home. Like most young people from the suburbs, obviously, when she thought of one of the most exciting places to go in America, she quickly settled on Hollywood.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
So as soon as they were able to go, she and two friends from school packed up their car and they headed to L.A. that fall, which should have been ridiculously exciting. Yeah. I mean, she's 18. Let's go. Yeah. Out on your own.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
On the morning of November 10th, 1977, George Newton, who was an employee with the Department of Water and Power, was cleaning debris from the side of Franklin Canyon Drive near the reservoir when he saw something strange lying in a ditch. When he got closer to take a look, he realized that he was looking at the dead, partially clothed body of a young woman.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
So he ran back to his truck and radioed dispatch who called the police for him and reported the discovery. Now, that summer in L.A., two young women had been sexually assaulted and murdered by a killer that the press had dubbed the Hillside Strangler. Strangler. Now we know Stranglers. Exactly. And those are episodes 256 and 258, if you want to go back to that coverage that Elena did.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
So when they arrived at the scene at Franklin Canyon Drive, detectives felt pretty confident that they just discovered the strangler's third victim. Yeah. This next part is a bit graphic. I just want to let you know. The young woman was positioned on all fours with her knees tucked toward her chest. She was nude from the waist down and there was obvious evidence of a violent sexual assault.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
A large rock lay in a pool of blood on the ground next to her, and she too had been strangled with a blue rope that was knotted in three places. Holy shit. And they also found two impressions in the dirt that appeared to be from a man's shoe. So at least they had that to go on. Jesus. And this is a little graphic. Huh.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
holy shit yeah she suffered immensely did you this does feel like the hillside strangler it does like i understand why they thought that was the same because it's and it's a little off for rodney but he's also starting to escalate yeah uh the medical examiner did collect fluids from her body but of course dna testing was at least a decade away at that point Oh, okay.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
According to the report, Jill Barkham, quote, was known by several sex workers in Oneida who referred to her as Little Bit. Oh, stop.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
I know. After contacting police in New York, investigators learned that Jill had only been in L.A. for about two weeks.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
wow two weeks wow she goes across the country to start a new this new adventure that she's so excited about two weeks she'd been there damn within a couple of weeks detectives in la had connected at least 11 strangulation murders that uh that they were attributing to what they thought was the hillside strangler including at that point the murder of jill barkham
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Lieutenant Edwin Henderson told a group of reporters in early December, similarities tend to make us believe there's a connection between these murders. Eventually, as we know, police would arrest and charge Kenneth Bianchi and his cousin Angelo Buono with the Hillside Strangler murders. But when questioned about the murder of Jill Barkham, both of them denied having anything to do with her death.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Yeah, exactly. In fact, the investigation into Jill Barkham's death would remain unsolved until 2004. Wow. When a DNA match to Rodney Alcala was made to the semen collected from Jill's body all the way back in 1977. Wow. Which is truly remarkable. That really is. But it's so sad that her family had no idea what happened to her for all those years. Yeah. Yeah. It's the new year.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
I am so ready to get back on my BS baby. And that is coming in big time when it comes to food planning, meal prepping, that whole thing. You know, it's a crazy statistic though. Over 10,000 chemicals have entered our US food supply, but the EU limits this to just 300 additives.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Personally, I do not have time to sift through ingredient labels to see what's in the food, which is why I love using Thrive Markets. One of my favorite features is the healthy swap scanner in the Thrive Market app. It's simple. You can scan any item and instantly they will suggest a cleaner, healthier grocery alternative.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
For me, that means swapping out those like really sugary snacks for high quality swaps. Like personally, I love those Chomps beef sticks more than life itself. Another thing I love is their smart cart feature. It takes the stress out of replacing junk food. When you create an account, Thrive Market asks the right questions and automatically builds a grocery cart tailored to your needs.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
filled with healthier alternatives to your favorite brands. That's actually how I found the Lesser Evil popcorn, and they also have cheese balls that are ridiculously good, but you don't have to feel guilty about them. Ready for a junk-free start to 2025? Head to thrivemarket.com slash morbid and get 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's T-H-R-I-V-E market.com slash morbid.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Now, in early December, investigators in New York had discovered a possible link between the murder of Ellen Hauver and Rodney Alcala when a search for the alias John Berger came back as one used by Alcala. Acting on a request from the FBI, LAPD officers actually picked up Alcala on December 14th, 1977, and they brought him to the precinct for questioning about Ellen's case.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
To their surprise, not only did he admit knowing Ellen Hover, but he also said that he met with her for a photo shoot on the day she went missing. But he emphatically stated that he had nothing to do with her disappearance, he just took some pictures. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's probably just a coincidence.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
And despite his insistence that he was definitely innocent, he refused to take a polygraph test. And detectives had no reason to hold him, so they had to let him go. LAPD detective Cliff Shepard said there was nothing to hold him on because there was no body, so he was released. Because at that point, they didn't have it. Man. Yeah.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
And it's different because I'm not like fully submersed and like putting them together and then presenting them. This one, like obviously Dave helped like immensely putting most of this together. I don't even know how Dave is sleeping at night. But then like I was like, you know, twisting like things around, like moving them around. I'm like, oh, God. Yeah. Jesus Christ. Oh, it's awful.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
So on December 16th, just two days after he was interrogated by the LAPD for Ellen's disappearance, the LA County Sheriff's officer received a call regarding 27-year-old nurse Georgia Marie Wickstead. According to the caller, Wickstead had failed to pick up a co-worker for her carpool that morning, and she also hadn't shown up for work, and both of those things were very out of character for her.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
She always showed up on time. She was somebody that her friends could rely on. Yeah. Repeated calls to George's apartment also went unanswered. So after the call, Deputy Jeffrey Cannon was dispatched to just go do a typical well-being check. Yeah. Not expecting much there.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
When he arrived at Georgia Wickstead's apartment complex, Cannon was met by deputies Jack Nenninger and Mike Powers, and the three men made their way through the courtyard to George's apartment. The first thing they noticed was that a screen was missing on one of the three large windows at the front of the apartment, and it had been propped up against a building beside the window.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Against the building, excuse me. And that's always chilling to see. And there was also a box positioned underneath the window, like somebody had obviously used it to climb through. And there were also scuff marks outside the wall that seemed like they were made by shoes or boots. Like as he's climbing in. So this person literally broke into her apartment.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
But when they tried the door handle, deputies were surprised to find that the door was actually unlocked. Inside the apartment, it was nearly 90 degrees. Yeah, 90 degrees and completely dark, like almost pitch black. So they switched on their flashlights. Among the first things they saw when they swept their lights across the room was a dead body lying on the floor.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
They drew their guns and searched a different room in the apartment looking for the killer. Just have to be sure that he's not still there. Yeah, you don't know if he's still there. And, of course, any additional victims. But once they secured the apartment, they called for additional officers and, of course, the coroner.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
With the curtains open and the lights on, the deputies were able to see the full extent of the violence committed in Georgia Wickstead's apartment. And it was, I can't imagine having to leave that scene and go about your life after that. Oh, my God. Holy shit. Oh!
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
He's far more brutal than I ever even knew. The autopsy report included an extensive list of injuries, including significant trauma to her face and head, skull fractures, extensive lacerations covering her body, and a fractured and dislocated arm. So she fought like hell. Yeah. Yeah.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
The medical examiner wrote almost every injury was inflicted while she was still alive and blood was still pumping through her body. Oh, my God. Yeah, which is awful. The ultimate cause of death listed was ligature strangulation. Holy shit. So she even survived those blows to the head with a claw hammer. Oh, my God.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
yeah but I do this thing where I had this therapist and she told me instead of focusing on because like I will if I have like a thought that I don't want to have I'm like no no no like don't think about that don't think about that don't think about yeah but that just makes it worse because it's like telling a toddler not to do something it just makes them want to do it more yeah I think your brain is essentially a toddler so I reckon I say I recognize that I'm having that thought and now I'm gonna move on to something else
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Although his previous murders were obviously violent, the attack on Georgia Wickstead seemed particularly brutal by comparison. And unhinged. Unhinged. Yeah. Like, out of control. Detective Cliff Shepard said, I think he did that one to show that he could kill with impunity. Yeah. It feels that way. I think so, too. And I think he's like, look, you'll arrest me and I'll still go out and do it.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Exactly. And I'll go even harder than I have. It'll be worse. And you still won't catch me. Yeah. Because you just keep letting me go. So look what I can do. Yeah. However, unlike his previous crime scenes, which were light on evidence, this time he had left behind critical evidence in the form of semen, blood evidence, and even a partial palm print. Oh, wow. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
While the DNA and blood evidence, again, wouldn't prove useful for at least another decade, the palm print was the first piece of solid evidence that investigators could find, and all detectives needed was a hand to match it to. After the murder of Georgia Wickstead, though, Rodney Alcala just returned to his ordinary fucking life. God, this guy.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Yeah, just went back to his job at the Times, was taking photographs on the side for extra money, photographing people's weddings, which is truly unthinkable that he could do that and then go to a wedding ceremony and take pictures. Wow.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
In March of 1978, the LAPD's Hillside Strangler Task Force had narrowed down their list of suspects and were questioning those they believed could be involved in the brutal string of killings. And as a child rapist, his name was among those on the list, so police paid him a visit at his mother's house to question him. I just have to say, like, his mom must be like, what's going on?
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Like, police are showing up here all the time. But every time they show up, she tells them that he has nothing to do with anything. It's like, I get it. Like, that's your son. If the police keep showing up and he keeps being linked to this many things.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
He did some shit wrong. Yeah. Like, come on. I just needed to say that. So, although he was ruled out as a suspect in the Hillside case, while they were at his home, they discovered that he was in the possession of a small amount of marijuana, so they arrested him on a petty drug charge just to keep him.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
It earned him, that possession charge earned him a three-month jail sentence, so he spent three more months in jail and was released in late June of 1978. On the morning of June 21st, June 24th, excuse me, just days after he was released from jail, Zafar Shah, a resident at the Illinois apartment in El Segundo, made a truly brutal discovery.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Shah had just entered the basement of the building to do some laundry when he almost stumbled over the body of 31-year-old Charlotte Lamb. And just days after he was released? Just days. Holy shit. Shaw ran to the building's manager office, and together they called the police, who arrived a little before noon.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Upon arrival, Detective William Gaynor was met by the building manager, who took him down into the basement. Lamb's body was lying nude on the floor, a long shoelace tied tightly around her neck, and a piece of wood with a small amount of blood splatter was next to her head. It was very clear that she had been sexually assaulted.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
And among the more curious aspects of the crime scene, though, was that Lamb, who at that point had yet to be identified, didn't live at the Illinois apartments and was unknown to the residents there. So that wasn't even where she lived. And this is an apartment complex laundry room.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
But not one she lives at. Like, so strange. That's so bizarre. It is. Her body was taken to the medical examiner's office where an autopsy was conducted by Dr. Joseph Kogan. In his report, he noted that there was considerable trauma to her face and head. There were bite marks on the right side of her neck. This is brutal. Wow. This attack was... Wow. He's an animal. Like he's a fucking animal.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
There you go. And it does help a little bit. It does help. Yeah. So I hope that can also help anybody else out there.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Literally a wild animal. A demon. Holy shit. And again, according to the autopsy, the majority of Charlotte's injuries were inflicted while she was still alive. And the ultimate cause of death was the ligature strangulation.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Holy shit. Swabs of fluid and bite mark impressions were taken and stored for later analysis. Something they did do really well was keep all the, even though they couldn't use like the fluid evidence, the semen, that kind of stuff, they did a good job of taking it anyway and storing it. Yeah. It doesn't seem like a lot of things got lost along the way. Which is great. Yeah. Yeah.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Now, days after Charlotte hadn't shown up for work and nobody had heard from her, several calls were placed to the LAPD to report her missing. At the same time, her car had been ticketed and was eventually impounded in Santa Monica. And between the two events, investigators were finally able to identify Charlotte Lamb as the body discovered in that basement.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
But now, how she had wound up there would remain a mystery to everyone for some time to come. Yeah. Investigators pursued this case for months, but the evidence was scarce and leads were pretty slim. That September, Rodney Alcala's life took a bizarre turn when he was recruited as a contestant on the dating game.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
So this all of everything we've talked about so far has happened before he was even on the dating game. That's bonkers. And then he just goes on this... The show became known for its frequent use of very risque double entendres and thinly veiled allusions to sexual objects. It was a spicy show. They would be like, sex. They'd be like, but they'd like say it different than that.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
They'd be like, sex, but not. Yeah. In this particular episode, bachelorette Cheryl Bradshaw asked the hidden bachelors, I'm serving you for dinner. What are you called and what do you look like?
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Yeah, I think they were pre-written. Very of the time. Yeah. Bachelor number one, Rodney, replied, I'm called the banana and I look really good. Peel me. I hate this a lot. I will fucking peel you. I hate this a lot. With a potato peeler.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
I'm not diverse enough. Yeah. You're not divergent enough. No. But yeah. But yours is cool. So it could work for the, you know, the non-neurotypicals out there. Yeah.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Yeah. The response got a laugh out of Bradshaw in the audience, setting a kind of lighthearted tone. And throughout the episode, Alcala did his best, his absolute best, to charm Bradshaw, describing himself as a long-haired photographer who enjoyed skydiving and motorcycling in his spare time.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
The legal system showed him you can be a fucking monster to children. Yeah. And you'll get away with it. And we'll let you out. And we'll let you out. You can serve like a couple years. Yeah. It'll be easy. And then you get out and just get right back to it. Yeah. And then maybe we'll get you, but maybe not. Maybe not. Yeah. It's just very disconcerting.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
And this appearance on the dating game, like, obviously before Cheryl gets the weird feeling. And it's interesting that she actually, you know, she picked him. Yeah. And she was, you know, stunned by his charm in the moment. In the spotlight. In the spotlight when she can't see him. Exactly. And then she sees him.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
But it's a quick exchange. Even in that quick exchange, she sees him. And she sees him for exactly who the fuck he is.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
And I think, and this is just like my personal thought, I think she saw his eyes. And I think she saw that there was something fucking dead behind those eyes.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
so fucking beady and scary and it breaks my heart that they were the last thing some people saw yeah it's well i hate this guy but like i just said the audience loved alcala it seemed that cheryl did in the moment too especially when she chose him to be her date at the end of the episode she told the host well i like bananas so i'll take one meaning bachelor number one
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
As winners, Cheryl and Rodney were awarded tennis lessons and a trip to California's Magic Mountain Amusement Park. Can you fucking imagine if she had accepted that date and gone to tennis lessons with Rodney Alcala?
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Everyone will see it. You know he went into that being like, I'm going to win. Yeah. Like, I know I'm going to because he's a cocky motherfucker. And he did. He did win. Yeah. I think he thought, I'll just do this in front of America's face.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
I'll win this date and I'll kill this girl and I'll get away with it.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
But he had been caught so many times. But he was so sure. He was so sure because I do think he's a narcissist. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, me armchair diagnosing.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
But then you also have to wonder because he didn't even get convicted. Everybody knew what he did to Tali Shapiro at eight years old. Everybody knew. I'm just like, what? So that gave him the full blown confidence to say, look what I can do to an eight year old girl in the middle of the fucking morning at a place where she lives.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Less than three years. Yeah. And went to go do stuff again. I got caught with a 13 year old girl and I just blamed it on her. And I got those charges got dropped. I just had to serve a parole violation for I think it was three months. Yeah.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
It's just like, whoa. It's bonkers. It's just whoa. I think he was a monster, and then I think the legal system even pushed him further into believing. Well, it enabled him. It enabled him, exactly.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Finding out what had happened to those poor women and girls before her. Before her and after her. Yeah. Because he goes on another spree. This is just one spree. Jeez. There's a lot in life that feels like it should be guaranteed, but it just isn't. Things like your friends being on their way when they text you LMW or getting out the same number of socks from the dryer that you put in.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
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Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
So like we know, when the show finished taping, like I said at the top of part one, Cheryl started to feel like she'd made a bad choice. According to former homicide detective Matt Murphy, the moment where he comes around the partition and Cheryl Bradshaw looks at him, there's a moment in her eyes where you can see she's being polite, but she did refuse to go on a date with him.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
See, and he said it. I want to watch it back. I've seen clips, but I've never seen the two of them interact.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Immediately after seeing Alcala in person, like we know, she went to Ellen Metzger, who was the show's producer, and she said, Ellen, I can't go out with this guy. There's weird vibes that are coming off him. He's very strange. I'm not comfortable. Will that be a problem? And again, thankfully, Ellen Metzger assured her it was not going to be a problem.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
She was not under any obligation to go on this date. And Cheryl left the studio that afternoon, like we know, completely unaware that she narrowly avoided spending time with a brutal killer. Jesus. It turned out Cheryl Bradshaw was not the only person put off by Alcala's strange, very intense energy.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
According to Jed Mills, who was one of the other bachelors on the episode, Alcala's strange behavior and demeanor in the green room before the taping, he felt was very bizarre and very off-putting. Wow. He said, I'm kind of bending toward the other guy to get away from him, and I don't know if I did that consciously.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
He was quiet, but at the same time, he would interrupt and impose whenever he felt like it. And he was very obnoxious and creepy. He became very unlikable and rude and imposing, as though he was trying to intimidate. Huh. Yeah. And just to think that this other bachelor found himself pulling away from this guy physically. Like this man was like, yeah.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Like something about Rodney's energy made him move away from him, whether he meant to or not.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Yeah. Yeah. Rodney's failure on the dating game did not seem to affect his confidence in any way. In February of 1979, just a few months after being rejected by Cheryl Bradshaw, Alcala was back out on the streets looking for a new victim.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
He did stalk people. Oh, yeah, I'm sure. We'll find out in part three that he was a stalker. He was driving through Riverside, California, when he spotted 15-year-old Monique Hoyt hitchhiking, and he stopped and offered her a ride.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers, and if you're like me and grew up watching America's Most Wanted and reading Nancy Drew, then hi, you're a crime junkie. And I bet that passion for solving mysteries never went away, which is why we've assembled a team of reporters to dig deep into all the cases we still obsess over.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
His backseat was full of camera equipment, and Alcala asked if he could take Monique's picture, telling her it was for a contest and they could both win a prize if he entered and they both won. To the 15-year-old, he seemed like a, quote, nice, charming, mild man, and he also came off as a legitimate photographer because he's got all this stuff with him. Yeah.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
So she agreed to let him take her picture. Yeah. By the time they reached Alcala's mother's house, he literally brought this girl back to his mother's house. This is a 15-year-old girl. Jesus Christ. Just going to state that for exactly what it is. Jesus Christ. The sun had started to go down and he told Monique that the next day would be better for pictures.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
So they spent the night together at his mom's house. She's 15. She's 15. Remember. We don't know what happened, but she's 15. When they woke up the next day, he packed the camera equipment into the car and they drove out to the desert area near Banning, about 80 miles outside of LA. So they drove for, you got to think, over an hour in the car together. Yeah.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
The first few photos that he took were simple posing shots. But before long, he asked Monique if she would be opposed to taking some nude photos, which he has no right to ask her because she's 15 years old. Because she's a literal child. And she can't consent to that. No. A 15-year-old. Yeah. But eventually, the pain and the trauma of it all became too much, and she started screaming.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
And at that point, he yelled at her to shut up, stuffed her t-shirt into her mouth, and started choking her with his hands until she lost consciousness for the second time.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
When she woke up for the second time, she woke up and realized that her hands and feet were both bound. And now she looked next to her and saw that Rodney Alcala was lying beside her on a blanket, sobbing.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
I just can't imagine enduring what that girl endured at 15 years old.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Like, what? The level of confusion. She's also blacked out two times because he strangled her and hit her in the head. And then she wakes up. The bizarre confusion of this all.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Now remember, she's blacked out twice. but still relied on her instincts and turned to Rodney and started comforting him, knowing that she could maybe reverse psychology him.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
She told him that she wanted to spend more time with him and said, can we just go back to your house? Would that be okay?
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
She also begged him not to tell anybody what had happened between them. She said, just don't tell anybody and I won't tell anybody.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Like, I'm not going to tell anyone. I would never tell anybody. She begged him, don't say anything. He didn't respond to any of her questions, just remained completely silent. But it appeared that this reverse psychology worked. He started untying her silently, though.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
When meanwhile, your nervous system is probably the most fucking... Is definitely the most panicked it's ever been. Your nervous system is losing its mind. Is out of whack. But your brain somehow, your mind, and your survival instincts must just kick in. Fascinating. But the tension... In this moment of him untying her, completely silent. Yeah.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
And she's just sitting there hoping like, I'm hoping this is working. Yeah. She has no idea. They could walk down together and he could hit her over the head again and this could all start back up. He's already horrifically assaulted her in every way. They both just silently got dressed and returned to the car and started driving again the long distance back to Los Angeles, over 80 miles.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Once they made it down the mountain and entered Banning, Alcala stopped at a fast food restaurant and he went in to place an order. And he told Monique to wait for him while he went inside to use the bathroom. Wow. So he trusted her at that point. Because she got him to. She was able to convince him, I'm not going to say anything if you don't and I'd like to spend more time together. Yeah.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
As soon as he was out of sight, she ran to the motel next door and started screaming for help. One of the motel guests called 911 while some other people brought her into their room to wait for police. So again, more good Samaritans here.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Because some people hear people screaming and they're like, I don't want to get involved in that.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Or I don't know what I heard, whatever. But these people heard her screaming, called the police and said, come in here, you're safe. Damn. I love it. So in the meantime, Alcala had returned to the car and obviously realized that Monique had escaped. So he got back into the car and just dipped, like, flood that scene completely. Piece of shit.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
When police got there, Monique gave a description of her kidnapper and she knew his name. So she told them his name. And after picking him out of a photo lineup of six images, investigators knew exactly where to find Rodney Alcala. Of course they did. At his mom's house. Yeah. Because that's where he lives always. Yeah. He was quickly arrested for the assault the next day.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
In his interview with detectives, he claimed that Monique had agreed to be photographed by him, and she said that she would, quote, simulate sex acts.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
She's 15, so she can't agree to that. He said eventually she changed her mind, and that's when he started choking her.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Yeah. Yeah. He told the detectives that the situation had gotten out of hand. He never intended to attack her. He said, you're in an unreasoning situation. Your brain and you just don't seem to know what to do. You're not reasoning. You're not thinking. I raped her. So he literally told police outright, I raped her.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
We're not on the same level. No. So given his violent criminal history, the prosecutor asked the judge to set the bail at $50,000 for Rodney. Yeah. For some motherfucking crazy ass reason, the judge found that amount to be too high.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
For raping a child. Are you kidding me? For the second time. For the second time, everybody. Okay.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
I want to look at all of these people today and be like, hey, you all got blood on your hands. Yeah, I want to be like, how do you feel? How does that feel? Do you guys sleep at night? They absolutely do. Do you sleep good at night? I'm like, did you read the wrong transcript? You knew that he had already raped a child and now he's being accused of raping a child again? Yeah.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
And you're like, nah, $50,000 is too high. How about no bail? Like, I don't know what all the rules are for bail, but obviously there was the option here to set it higher at $50,000. He would have killed her. Absolutely. He raped her. He abducted her. He took lewd photos of her.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
And also literally was choking the life out, choked her to the point of unconsciousness at least one time and hit her in the face so hard with a tree branch that she lost consciousness a second time. Like, are you fucking serious, dude? Yeah. So his bail was set at just $10,000 and his mommy wasted no time coming to his aid, believing that there must have been some terrible mistake.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
On March 16th, Rodney was released on bail and returned to Mommy's house to await his trial, which was scheduled for September. That is disgusting. And that is where we're going to wrap for part two. In part three, we will see yet another flop of a legal system and many other women who ended up losing their lives because of that. That is unthinkable.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
But luckily, he gets caught and apprehended and goes to multiple trials, which is really fucking annoying in and of itself, but it ends on a good note.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
You're not a big admin girly, but maybe that's why. Maybe you're doing so much admin in your brain. I am. I'm putting the trash in the trash.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
You accuse him of rape and his bail gets set at $10,000 and he gets out. I can't. The man who raped you after beating you and strangling you unconscious twice is just out on the streets again? I really can't. How do you deal with that at all? How do you rationalize that in your brain? I don't know if you can, to be quite honest.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
But there is unfortunately a lot more horrific details to talk about in part three. He's not done. But again, it ends on as good of a note as it can. So stay tuned for that. We hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. I don't have to tell you not to keep it this weird. No. No. Thank you.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
I also think you worked a lot of office jobs. I did, yeah. Yeah. And I never worked an office job. And research. And research jobs, yeah. Your brain is... I feel like that's very, very right-brained of you.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Then it can be helpful. Yeah. Or recognize that you're having the thought, let yourself have the thought and also let it pass. Yeah. We've given you so many ways to get rid of your yucky thoughts.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
See, for someone like me, if you don't let yourself have the thought, it's just going to try harder to get into the thought. And see, that's where mine goes. No, don't let yourself have the thought. Throw it in the trash. No, I got to let myself. It's also like weird exposure therapy, I think. I don't know. I love it. Well, that's our brains for you. They're fucking weird. But here we are.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Each Monday, my best friend Britt and I will bring you a case that you won't be able to stop thinking and talking about. So join us by listening to Crime Junkie wherever you listen to podcasts.
Morbid
Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
You like us if you're listening most of the time. Hopefully. Sometimes. Most of you anyway. Most of you. So let's get back into it. We're on part two of Rodney Alcala. In part one, we kind of started in the middle talking about Rodney's appearance on the popular show, The Dating Game. and how he was immediately off-putting to female contestant Cheryl Bradshaw.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
We went over Rodney's early life, how he was abruptly discharged from the military after, I guess you could say, some sort of psychotic break, it seems. We went over his first attacks on many women, and of course, at the end, his capture in New Hampshire, while he was working at a children's summer camp under the name of John Berger.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
John Berger. Isn't that Sex and the City?
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Yeah. I'll never understand that. I'm sorry. I can't. Don't hate me. Don't hate me. Douchebag.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
But back to the story. After years of searching for Rodney after the brutal attack on eight-year-old Tali Shapiro, Steve Hodel there had finally captured the man whose crimes had so deeply disturbed everybody familiar with the case, especially Steve Hodel himself. However, what should have been a career highlight for Steve quickly turned into an absolute fucking mess.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
and ultimately a very serious disappointment. So the district attorney's office, yeah, great. The district attorney's office was eager to charge Alcala for the attack on Tali, but there was a problem. The Shapiro family, like I said in part one, had left the country. Yeah, yeah. Understandably so.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Yeah, and they were difficult to get a hold of, again, understandably so. Yeah. And Tali's parents had spent the previous years doing everything they could to shield their daughter from any further trauma, which included talking about the attack. Yeah, I get it. And the fact that she doesn't remember anything like... They don't want to trigger any memories.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
One, they don't want to trigger any memories. And two, they did their job and they did it correctly because she doesn't have any memories. That's amazing. So whatever her family did for her worked. Yeah. Maybe it didn't work out in a court sense right here, right now.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
It made her okay and that's all I care about personally.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
But the prosecutor tried to convince the Shapiros to return to LA and allow Tali to testify against Alcala, but the family did not want to put their eight-year-old daughter through that. And I don't blame them. I get it.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
But without their main witness, which also happened to... Or who also happened to be Alcala's accuser, the district attorney had no choice to either offer him a deal or drop the case altogether. Because it just wasn't going to be as strong.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
And it's like, you can still present the facts without her there and tell a jury. Of course, it's going to drive the point home harder if you see the actual girl. It's going to pull on your heartstrings.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
But I think they were just worried. Yeah, of course. And you can understand why. So unwilling to completely drop the case altogether, the DA was willing to allow Alcala to plead to the lesser charge of child molestation, which is fucking insane that that's a lesser charge. That's insane to me. Child molestation is a lesser charge. Like, we gotta do better. We gotta do better, guys.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
So he was going to plead to that in exchange for an indeterminate sentence of anywhere from one year to life in prison. So this could go so many ways. That's quite a stretch.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Given the circumstances, which we all know from part one, the prosecutor expected the judge to impose a pretty lengthy sentence, but was absolutely shocked when Alcala was sentenced to one to ten years with the opportunity for parole after just one year. That's honestly disgusting. It is. And it's despicable.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Ultimately, he would serve 34 months in prison for the attempted murder of 8-year-old Tali Shapiro.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
yep what the fuck is wrong with everybody would have if not for a good samaritan literally would have she'd be gone absolutely 100 000 so after he was sentenced and you know was kind of writing out some of his sentence a prison psychologist deemed him quote-unquote considerably improved and recommended him for parole in 1974 well they should be fucking ashamed of themselves
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Also, yeah, of course he's considerably improved because there's not women and children in prison for him to prey upon. He should... Considerably improved?
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
So how does that even make any sense? That's disgusting. It is such a tragedy that so much more came after that. And he did his job.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
that's not the story after his release i'll call a return to living with his mother in la and started supporting himself as a wedding photographer can you fucking imagine if this man photographed your wedding imagine looking back on your wedding photos and being like like those poor people they're victims too yeah like i'm like what the fuck yeah how do you reconcile that later you i don't think you do i think you have them redone at that point
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
Oh, he's a fucking monster. He's a predator. Yeah. Just as he had with Tali Shapiro years earlier, he pulled his car up to the sidewalk and offered her a ride. At first, she paid no attention to him. So he put on some charm and he said he had some great posters that he wanted to show her, which is so fucking creepy. The trick worked, though, which you can understand. They're children.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
It's a 13-year-old, and again, it's a very different time. Julie agreed to go with him on the condition that he drop her off at school. But as they started driving, she noticed that the man, who said his name was John Ronald, had driven right past her school.
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Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)
And when she pointed that out, he said something about needing to check out an apartment and promised it wouldn't take too long and then he'd get her to school. So now concerned that she might be in trouble, she became visibly anxious and she couldn't sit still, which made him yell at her. He started yelling at her. My God, this is horrifying to think about. It's a nightmare. Oh, my God.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yeah, placed you and like little reminders along the way like this is where we are, you know? Like we're not in 2024. Right.
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Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Which I love, because you think of this case as a whole, and, I mean, women are the ultimate victims in this case, but they're also the hero of this case. Absolutely. Like, Kat is a fucking boss.
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Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
We're going to catch him. I'm getting my divorce.
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Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Just to think that she needed to have like a straight up reason to get divorced and like a very compelling one, not just like somebody had to be, her husband had to be guilty of a crime for her to be granted the divorce. You should just be able to have a divorce if you don't like his ass anymore. Yeah.
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Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Right. And that like even cheating was barely sufficient. Yeah.
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Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
That's K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com slash morbid.
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Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
He went after older women like widows, people who had previously been married and lost somebody, you know, like these women did want to have families. And for a lot of them, it was like their quote unquote last chance to have a family. Yeah.
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Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
I want to high five Kat from the future.
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Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yes. I love that her version of going through his phone is trying to get into his briefcase. Yep. His duffel bag that he carried around everywhere.
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Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
And being super weird about said briefcase slash duffel bag. Yeah. You're going to carry around a bunch of shit. Don't be so weird about it.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash. I'm Elena.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
And we are having another installment of our Weirdos Audio Book Club. So thank you for being here today, everybody. We're grateful for you. So grateful. If you didn't know, we have Spencer Henry from Morbid Network's cult leader, Obituary, and their newest baby show, Gossip Spritle.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
I think he had charisma working for him, unfortunately. And that can work. Charisma. That can do the trick. Uniqueness, nerve, and talent.
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Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
That's ideal. Don't disrupt my space.
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Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
You have four things. Great.
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Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
We don't need that. Your briefcase fist over there. Everything else got to get rid of.
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Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
I think he was just a master manipulator.
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Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
And he was playing a character. Of course. So it's easy to make somebody like a character.
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Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
And I have to say, coming from two men authors, thank you. Yes. Thank you for making this girl a standalone badass.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
What was the test that we were talking about? They passed that test. The Bechdel test. They passed the Bechdel test.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
this is what i want to do put your cigarette out it's gross and let's go let's go don't be dumb did you guys have a like a favorite badass b moment of cats
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Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
oh god i love that's the thing i love that one she didn't fall in love and two she found another female friend to be a badass with yes love that and again two like male authors like snaps to them yes show that was great female friendship and bonds and they did a great job with it did you have one ash oh yes this is small but i love the way that she handled that hotel owner when she was trying to use his car she was like i will not be swayed thank you like uh-uh
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Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
like i'm not that not she was so confident she was she was just like yeah no she's like i will be taking your car thank you thank you very much thank you so much i just i feel like they gave her her flowers in this story yeah like showed off her badassery and again especially given the time period it was very brave of her to do what she did and she obviously faced a lot of adversity while she was doing it but look what she fucking did
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yeah. We recommend this title. Ten out of ten. If you haven't listened to Bluebeard on Audible, you got to go listen. And it's a quick listen.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
It's a three hour podcast. You will want more.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yeah, it's three hours long. I mean, if you have a long commute, you could get that done in a day, babe.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
If you don't listen to that, it's less than three hours. So there you go. It's quick. Yeah. But just warning. There's also one of them. You know what? You'll get there. So anyway, if you haven't listened to this title, don't forget that our sweetheart friends over at Audible are offering you guys a free trial at audible.com slash weirdos. Audible. Head over there for your free trial.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
We're excited to have you. I feel like you're the perfect fit for this because you love old-timey true crime.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Thank you to Spencer for joining us today. We love hanging with you.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
We love Spencer. We love you. And if we all want to end this on just maybe a title that we're listening to or recently listened to that we recommend.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
I have two recommendations. I just finished, and actually so did Alayna, Wayward. Oh, so good. And listening to that title was so whimsical. There's three female points of view and they have three different narrators for each one. And all of them just have the most, I say this all the time about people, but I think I just listen to audio titles with narrators who have the most soothing voices.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Love it.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
And these three women, I want them to read me bedtime stories every single night.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
so good and um obviously i have to recommend elena's butcher and the wren and the butcher game duh oh my god i know the author and she writes a mean book baby truly there's also uh the big hot book of death i've heard of that one have you heard of that one spencer spencer madison i have heard of that because that's also a great one she's pretty good and they got i love their their voices too those narrators true
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
That's an interesting one.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Ooh, I'm excited to hear. That makes me excited. I know. Well, before we dive into the title, we want to thank Audible again for the partnership and for bringing this special little bonus to all of you guys. Bluebeard is an Audible original, so if you haven't already listened... Head on over to Audible to dive into this title.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Our lovely friends are sweethearts at Audible, and they're still offering that free trial for you guys. So you can take hold of that nifty gifty at audible.com slash weirdos for your free trial. And of course, we also covered this case on Morbid. It was episode 626.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
So if you need to refresh your memory at all, or if you want to listen to that for your next Morbid listening journey, it's there for you. It's there for you.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
We're all, everything is there for you.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
I mean, yeah. I think he just riddled our nervous systems with anxiety.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Hey everyone, let's talk about protein for a second. There's this rumor that getting plant-based protein is tough, but listen, there are some amazing options out there. Even if you're not vegan, adding more plant-based protein to your diet is a fantastic way to nourish your body and support the planet. My go-to for tasty protein and superfood packed shake is cachava.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yeah, definitely.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yeah. He had to have. It's a good point. And he probably learned that in childhood because like if you go back and listen to the episode where we cover the real case, like he definitely had a gnarly childhood. Yeah. So that's a good point, Spencer.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Oh, I listened.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
I think you're I think that's exactly.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
That's insane. Like, what? That's all the books. I don't even know if I've read 43 books.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Every serving of cachava offers 25 grams of 100% plant-based protein, but that's not all. This all-in-one shake has fiber, quality fats, vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, and so much more. I love that I can take so many boxes with just one delicious shake. If you know me, you know that vanilla and chai are my favorite flavors, and I like to combine them.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Well, and what's interesting is they went into this actually thinking that they were going to make a documentary series. Oh, yeah. And then it turned into this title, which I love knowing like how a project started and evolved. And I feel like, I mean, this still could make an excellent documentary series, but I'm glad that they did the title.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yes, 100%. They really did. And it reminded me a little bit of your new show, Gossip Sprite, with all the soundscaping and everything. The immersive experience of it all. I was like, oh, Spencer's going to love this.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Give me a cigarette and a fedora and I'm ready to go. Let's go. Well, it all got started when Jim Clemente's friend, he was helping this elderly woman just clean out a storage locker, like most inconspicuous thing you could ever think of, you know?
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
And she, they were like clearing out random boxes. This was in LA, right?
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
And she told him, Oh, you can just get rid of that box over there. And he was like, okay, like maybe we should check inside first. Just, you know, make sure nothing important is in here. And, um, Something important was in that box. It contained this leather-bound tome, and that contained Bluebeard Watson's confession inside, which is insane. I just got chills. Yes.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
He confessed to the murder of 10 wives. And to think that that leather-bound tome was in there containing that confession. Full confession. Like three days worth of confession. And this tome actually belonged to the one and only J.B. Armstrong, who who's the PI that was hired by Catherine when she suspected that her husband was just cheating. Miss Wambacher was Mrs. Wambacher, exactly.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
So just literally opening that up and sifting through the pages must have been bonkers wild bananas.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Yeah, our producer Mikey got to talk to him and he showed him on the Zoom and we were all, Mikey was showing us afterwards. We were like, oh.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Let's get Jim on here.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Show me that leather-bound tome, Jim. I wanna see your book. I'm trying to see it. Well, obviously they were immediately interested in this story once they heard about this discovery and once they, you know, sifted through this tome of theirs. So they researched Watson even more to find out about his crimes, his detailed confession, and...
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
When I say detailed, like I said, it took this guy three days to get everything out. And it was that confession that really voiced the narrative of Watson in this title. So it's very true to who Watson actually was.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
like unlikable unlikable but you could see why women like would be drawn to him in a way almost yeah because if you were going walks the line if you were going into this story blind i think you would be like oh i like this guy like what's this guy's story but if you know the case and you go into it you're like i don't like you but you're kind of like toying with yourself of like yeah i kind of want to like you but i know what you do yeah you know for sure
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
But after working out the whole story, Clemente and McDonald pitched this story to our friends over at Audible. And they suggested maybe converting it into a radio-style drama, actually. And ultimately, it ended up being directed by a Canadian director. And this is interesting. Canadian radio-style dramas continued way past the point where they did in U.S., like when we transitioned over to TV.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
But they also have chocolate, they've got matcha, and they've got coconut acai. I'm a big fan of the coconut acai as well. After drinking cachava first thing in the morning, because that's when I always drink it, I feel satiated for hours. I feel focused, calm, and ready to take on my day.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Right. So he was really well versed in that type of production because, you know, they experienced them way longer. But to talk more about the production, let me hand it over to my girl Elena.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
And just the fact that people in three different time zones were able to collaborate like this. I'm like, damn, I can barely get a meeting on the books with these coasters.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Meanwhile, they're like, let's soundscape this shit and record the entire title all at once. In three different time zones.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
It just added to the story, but it didn't add anything unnecessary.
Morbid
Episode 629: “Weirdos’ Audiobook Club” presented by Audible – Blue Beard with Special Guest, Spencer Henry From Cult Liter
Something that I really love to do if I even want like a little bit more protein is just add a scoop of peanut butter to the vanilla and chai concoction that I make. And that, oh, is just scrum-diddly-umptious, honey. Cachava is offering our listeners 10% off on their subscription for a limited time. Just go to cachava.com slash morbid. spelled K-A-C-H-A-V-A, and get 10% off your first order.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Hey weirdos, Elena here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with Morbid, Wondery Plus is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
That's the plan right out the gate. Thank you so much for talking to us. This is awesome. You just came off of, really, in the last few months, an epic tour, I would say, is the least way we can describe it. It was basically two years.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
One thing I have to ask you is I was in one of those audiences watching that film. And the first thing I heard very clearly when the credits rolled was someone behind me yell very lovingly, fuck you, Tobias Forge. Like at the top of their lungs. So mad. Because they were like, what the fuck? Did you feel audiences cursing you at the end of that?
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Like, did you know that people were going to be like, no.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
It's your gotcha moment. It is. It was such a good gotcha moment.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
It was like right up to it. Then you're just like, oh. Yeah. Close the door. So in that film, there's like a lot of allusions to twins and a lot of implications that there's twins involved in some other capacity than what we've seen. Is there, can you tell us anything about that or should we just like shut up and wait?
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Yeah, it's insane. You also just put out the highest grossing hard rock cinema event in North America. No big deal. Casual. Yeah, very casual. You've gone on kind of like a media sabbatical in between and you've written an entire album. And you also collaborated with Dark Horse Comics to expand the whole ghost lore with a four issue comic book arc, which is really cool.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Look at that. That's a surprise. And that's like a relatively new thing, too. So I feel like that's like a whole new generation of people experiencing that like very specific and very unique kind of trauma sometimes. Because we didn't always have these tests that we could just like send away for and get the results on your phone. So it's very interesting.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
That's a good way to look at it, actually.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
That's what they did it for, so we could sit here and talk shit. Yeah, you know. Well, getting away from the last tour and heading into the future a little bit, this album, I was lucky enough to listen to it. This new album is amazing. It's like a masterpiece. I'm obsessed with it. I love it. I think it's my favorite so far. It's really, really good. I can't get over it.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
I wanted to scream it from the rooftops. I really can't. And I know you're probably like, oh.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
It's not, I promise. She doesn't. I really don't. I loved this one. I loved it immediately from the first note. And again, this album feels... It's just got like a different feel to it and it feels more personal and a little more like introspective. Like it just has a different vibe to it, a very good different vibe.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Can you tell us a little bit about why, if I'm correct, why you might have went in that direction with this one?
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Are you a vampire is our first question or do you sleep?
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
It definitely comes across in this one. Like each one, I feel like it's kind of like a little mini movie that you can see in your head. And it feels like there's sentiments in each one that you can relate to on some level in some part of your life. You know what I mean? Like they all have that. That's why this one like struck me as so different. But it was different in the best kind of way.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Having to boil it all down to that and making it like palatable.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Well, and it's kind of like you're letting your own personal journal, your own diary, you're giving it to a bunch of people to kind of help make into something that everyone's going to listen to. I can't imagine that.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Well, and we, the first single video that is coming out from this album is Satanized. And when this episode airs, it has come out already. That video is amazing. Loved that video. It is the first reveal of Papa Five, Papa Perpetua, and it's a phenomenal reveal at the end of the video. I think Ash actually filmed me watching it for the first time, and I was like speechless.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
I couldn't even form words. I have a couple of questions about that video. And again, if you can't answer, just say absolutely not. Is that you heavily, heavily made up as the priest?
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Oh. I think I'm right about my theory.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
He was familiar, but I didn't know if it was just because he has a very kind face.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
That must be the most fun, I feel like.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
The villain is always the most fun.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
I'm glad you're feeling better, by the way.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
I loved it. I'm so glad you confirmed it for me because it was driving me insane. I've been saying it in here. I'm like, am I just looking for things that aren't there? Or am I going crazy now? But in that same video, because I had to analyze it a million times, Corinthians 6.19 flashes across the screen. It's in the little notebook. It's definitely like right there.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
And in case anybody didn't, you know, immediately look up that verse in the Bible, I did not know what that verse was at first because I'm not super up on my biblical verses. Now, before this interview, I think I'm like an expert on the book of Revelations, by the way. I'm telling everybody stories.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
I have now. So I know all about it. But Corinthians is basically touching upon like sexual immorality. It's when Paul went to the Corinthians and told them, you know, stop being so loose with your business. And the Corinthians were like, well, why does it matter? This body doesn't go with me when I leave. So like, it doesn't matter what I do with it. And he's like, no, it's a temple for God.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
And you're sullying it with your reckless, you know, sexy time. Yeah. So that's the story there in a very loose form, obviously, not the word of God. And this seems to be a theme, obviously, of the Satanize video for sure. Like we see the nun showing some clogged ankle for a minute. Loved her. I thought her facial expressions are so good. And it's part of the video.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
It's part of everything for this. And There's another song, I won't name it because it's obviously not out yet, that I listened to on the album that definitely had some like spiciness in it, I would say. So it had like a similar theme of this.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
But I wanted to know if that kind of theme plays like a bigger role at all in the thematic arch of the album as a whole, or if it's just kind of like just a part of something bigger.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Truly. And what is, and again, you might not be able to answer this, but in the notebook, we were looking at what the things that were written in there because they were funny in the music video. And there's something that's crossed out. Can you tell us what that said? Because I think next to it, it says like idiot.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Scam Factory, the explosive new true crime podcast from Wondery, exposes a multi-billion dollar criminal empire. Every suspicious text you ignore masks a huge network of compounds where thousands are held captive and forced to scam others under the threat of death. Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey weirdos, I'm Ash.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Yeah, you're doing okay, I feel like. It's working out. Yeah, you know. I feel that, though. I literally, if I do two book signings in like a week, I'm like toast for three weeks. So I have no idea how you did two full years of a tour and did all the things you did afterwards. I would be gone.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
A little wink. I like that. All right. I'm glad we know what that is now. It was driving us nuts. We're like, what does that say? It has an S in the beginning. So quick little like side question. Have you ever seen The Devils with Oliver Reed and Vanessa Redgrave?
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
And it was like banned. But I think like the W, like Warner Brothers wouldn't release it again. So it's one of those things you have to go looking for. Yeah.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
I'm obsessed with that. I love how literal. That one's awesome.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
I love that words are added into the title. It's like overboard is not just overboard. It's like we have to explain it first.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Oh, like I thought you meant a pair for a dad.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Is it Criterion are the people who made it?
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
I don't know why that just popped in my head.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Because as soon as I watched the Satan Eyes video, for some reason, that movie just kind of like popped in my head. And I was like, huh, I got to ask.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Yeah. So moving away from the Satanize video, we have a couple of like kind of random questions for you. But last time you were on, we had a lot of random questions for you and people really liked hearing what you had to say about very random things. So I'm sure you know this, that you grew up in Sweden.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Is there any folklore or tales that you heard growing up that you think maybe shaped how you approach music or just creating cool shit?
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Not when you were in kindergarten. It was later.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
If we know anything about Netkin.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
He's going to sit in that waterfall.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
So Tobias, we told you at the beginning of the episode that we had a very special guest who wanted to come in and just congratulate you and say hey.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
That was the plan, so I'm glad it worked.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
The third one's coming, so get ready.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
I'll keep going, probably. You'll get some more.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Oh, thank you. Back at you, Doug. Look at the love here. This was so amazing, and it was so amazing to have Doug come in as a surprise guest. We wanted to give you that at the end.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
We thought it would be fun. We love Doug so much. Thank you for coming, Doug. We love Tobias. We love Doug. It's just all love here. And just to wrap it up, the album comes out on April 25th. It's incredible. Everybody go get it because you won't be disappointed. The single for Satanized and the Sister Imperator comic are available now when this episode comes out.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
You can access all the above plus some really sick merch on ghost-official.com and I encourage you to do it. Tobias, you're amazing. We're huge fans. We'll stick with you. Can't wait to see you on tour. We'll be at a couple of the dates.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
It's like the creative part is like, I have to make this whole thing. And then that's just like, all right, let's go through the book. We got to do it now. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Well, before we get to, we're going to go fully into what is next for Ghost, what has happened. I had one quick little side quest I needed to take you on before we get into it.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
And thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming on. We really, really appreciate it.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
And we hope you guys keep listening.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
I don't know if you have heard, but they think that they have named Jack the Ripper. And I need to know if you think that they named Jack the Ripper.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
So you have it. They think it's Aaron Kosminski.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
No. No. I don't know if you've ever... Because I know you're into the case. You've researched the case, obviously. Yes. Have you heard of the Catherine Eddowes shawl that they claim was at the crime scene?
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Yeah. For some reason, it's been everywhere that they are 100% sure that this shawl has led to the identity and they think it's Aaron Kosminski. And the reason I bring this up is because a lot of our listeners, we did like a four episode, you know, deep dive into Jack the Ripper. And I think I did, it was like my, I couldn't stop researching it.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
So of course, I've been asked a million times what I think of this whole thing, if they've really named him. And it's, infuriating. Not people asking me, but the fact that they're saying that this is 100% Jack the Ripper. But I needed to know if you had heard about it and if you were like, oh yeah, it's Aaron Kosminski, or if you were like, no.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
All right, so I'm going to let Tobias finish in a second, I promise. But before I do that, I just need to let you guys know that we had very limited time with Tobias this time around. So I really wanted to make sure that you guys heard my feelings on Jack the Ripper and I didn't want to just like vomit them all over Tobias and use up all our time. So here's the thing.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
I don't think they have found Jack the Ripper. Not one part of me thinks it, in fact. There's many reasons for that. The fact that this has been a thing that comes around every few years is a big red flag to me, and it's the same person bringing it around every few years and not really updating any of the actual info.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
That shawl that they're claiming they have this DNA from is a shawl that they're claiming was found at Catherine Edo's crime scene. One... They have no way of knowing that. The only way of knowing that would be if it was among the exhaustive list of her items that were found on and around her at the crime scene that is well documented. And it is nowhere.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
There is nowhere that says there is like an eight foot long, really expensive shawl that might actually even be a table runner found on her person. Nowhere. So if we don't have that... then how do we know that this thing is hers and how do we know that it was found at the crime scene? Here's your answer. We don't.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
So there's a big, giant hole of doubt that has already been thrust through this entire thing. I don't think it was found at the crime scene. I think she would have sold it at one point. I don't think she would have held on to that kind of shawl. I mean... There's all kinds of stories of her selling, you know, shoes earlier in the day and selling anything that was on her.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
It just doesn't make sense to me. I don't I don't buy that one at all. Furthermore, the story of this whole thing is that Sergeant Amos Simpson was the one who is said to have taken the shawl from the crime scene, a supposed blood soaked shawl he took from the crime scene. One, that would have been an immense risk to do that.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
And two, I think we all need to remember what I said a thousand times during our Jack the Ripper series. We can't really comprehend how dark these crime scenes were. There was no light. We're going by candlelight. You're telling me that this man...
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
plucked a blood-soaked shawl from a crime scene and just brought it home for his wife i don't buy that also there's the fact that amos simpson was a metro cop he was a metropolitan police officer mitre square where katherine eddowes was found that is london pd jurisdiction he has no business being there and even if he is there he has no business at that crime scene so that gives me pause the dna the
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
The DNA, we don't even know what it is. It might be blood. It might be semen. They have no definitive answer for that. So that 100% match, I don't believe. They don't even know what the actual DNA source is for this. And also, there is no evidence of him leaving DNA.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
semen at scenes of course he can depart from his pattern of course that's happened before i am fully willing to admit that and i'm willing to accept that if there's other pieces of evidence along with it but the fact that he never did this and there was never evidence of any classic sexual assault or rape at any of these scenes It was really violence and mutilation.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
It doesn't really fit with the pattern. And once again, I'm willing to admit that a pattern can be broken if you give me other evidence to tell me that that's so. I just don't see it here. The DNA itself, it's mitochondrial DNA. That's what they're not telling you in any of these things. This is not straight up DNA. This is mitochondrial DNA.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
It can eliminate a suspect, but it cannot identify a suspect. Absolute. Anyone in the maternal line of this DNA match can also be the person. This can be thousands of people. Thousands of people in London can match this DNA. So that's not good enough for me. That's not identifying. That is, you can eliminate.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
And also, just to put a pin on this, the researcher who has put this forward is Russell Edwards. He doesn't have a track record that I'm willing to follow here. Really. I will, of course, give benefit of the doubt if he can provide more evidence. But he also claimed once, and so did his team, that they found a victim of Ian Brady and Myra Henley that has been missing for decades and decades.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
This is a very special episode of Morbid that we have been lightly teasing for a few weeks. I'm sure everybody's like, what the fuck is going on? Lightly.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Keith Bennett and his family has been looking for his body on those moors forever and hoping to find his body on those moors. And it was really fucked up that his team basically announced on social media that they had found Keith Bennett and they hadn't. So that upsets me. That makes me question it.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Of course, one massive monumental mistake doesn't mean that you can never do anything good in your life. So if he can provide more evidence that says this is 100% DNA match, which I don't believe he can, then I'm willing to listen to it. But no, Aaron Kosminski is not Jack the Ripper.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
No. Okay, I'm glad you agree, because it's been driving me insane. Yeah, Lena's been going down rabbit hole after rabbit hole. Every once in a while, I'll just yell out another thing that doesn't make sense about this, but everybody's running with it. But that is my official statement right here, and Tobias Forge agrees. It is not Aaron Kuzminski, everybody.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Today we have prolific songwriter and storyteller with 10 billion streams, which is astronomical, five Grammy nominations, American Music Awards, iHeartRadio Music Awards, and a vast congregation of very devout fans. We have Tobias Forge from Ghost. Welcome to Morbid.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
And that's the difference is you're saying, I don't know who did it.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Yeah. And same. I don't either. I don't think any of us do.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
It's been very widely reported as like 100% we figured out who did it. Yeah, like fully fact. Like what?
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Tobias is going to come mic drop later. There you go. There's so many little things about it, but I won't get into it because I can literally talk about this for like six hours and you don't have that. So let's take it back. We're going to talk about the Imperator, which again, you toured for almost two years. It was seven legs. We were at a few of them. It was an amazing tour.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
Congrats on that success, by the way. And again, the stamina that it took to do that.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
You're welcome. And it had I feel like towards the end of that tour, everyone became kind of like in a flutter of like what's going to happen and like what's what's next. And it was like a very it had like its own like mythos. You could hear like people talking about it everywhere you went about it.
Morbid
Episode 654: Diving into SKELETA with Tobias Forge of GHOST
So but luckily, we didn't have to wait too long because you chronicled, like you said, the final two performances of the tour in the film right here, right now. Which again, I just need to state, it's the highest grossing hard rock cinema event in North America, which is a crazy title to hold. But you ended that on the cliffhanger of all cliffhangers, like right before revealing Papa 5.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Is the Left Waking Up? + Charlie's "Love is Blind" Reaction
Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Is the Left Waking Up? + Charlie's "Love is Blind" Reaction
Everyone should be concerned about this. Last night, plainclothes agents approached Mr. Khalid and his wife as they were coming back home. He's a student at Columbia University. She's eight months pregnant. They're coming back from Iftar because it's the holy month of Ramadan. And they get approached. And at first, again, they didn't identify themselves as Homeland Security agents.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Is the Left Waking Up? + Charlie's "Love is Blind" Reaction
They proceed to threaten the wife before they take him into custody. We're finding out that information is coming out that they were revoking his student visa. Well, guess what? He doesn't have a student visa. He's a green card holder, a legal permanent resident. Again, they proceed to engage the attorney this way. He or she asked for a warrant. They hung up on them.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Is the Left Waking Up? + Charlie's "Love is Blind" Reaction
If you believe in constitutional rights, if you understand that they're targeting this person and everyone knows he has been very vocal against the genocide of the Palestinian people in Gaza. And they're targeting him and refusing him constitutional rights. Who's next?
The Charlie Kirk Show
Ask Charlie Anything 215: Learning the Bible? Lefty Family? Solving US/Canada Relations?
For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to charliekirk.com.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Ask Charlie Anything 215: Learning the Bible? Lefty Family? Solving US/Canada Relations?
I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Ask Charlie Anything 215: Learning the Bible? Lefty Family? Solving US/Canada Relations?
Hey, can you hear me?
The Charlie Kirk Show
Ask Charlie Anything 215: Learning the Bible? Lefty Family? Solving US/Canada Relations?
Awesome. Thank you. Yeah, I just had a real quick question. So just for people, I mean, I consider myself more of a strict constitutionalist, you know, believing that just the Constitution is the law of the land and that kind of general viewpoint.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Ask Charlie Anything 215: Learning the Bible? Lefty Family? Solving US/Canada Relations?
What would you say is the best way to kind of communicate that when you're talking with people who would be more like forming a big government, specifically when people are like,
The Charlie Kirk Show
Ask Charlie Anything 215: Learning the Bible? Lefty Family? Solving US/Canada Relations?
bringing forth the argument that the country is so big now, there's so many people, that it's too large to just be governed by the Constitution and then sort of the three branches of government that you need to have more of these federal agencies involved in that process.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Hey weirdos, it's Ash. Before we dive into today's twisted tale, let me tell you about the spooky perks of Wondery Plus. It's like having a skeleton key that unlocks ad-free listening and early access to new episodes. So don't wait, try Wondery Plus today. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
So now concerned that she might be in trouble, she became visibly anxious and she couldn't sit still, which made him yell at her. He started yelling at her. My God, this is horrifying to think about. The jarring shift in his tone and the fact that they were getting further and further away from her school started to frighten Julie, and she told him to pull over and let her out.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
But rather than pull over, he steered the car onto the Pacific Coast Highway, headed way away from downtown Huntington Beach. Oh my God. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I feel like a lot of times we hear about people's red flags. You know, red flags are what we should avoid. But what if we focused more on looking for green flags in friends and partners?
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Like, the good things about them, the way that they show up for you, the way that they, you know, do acts of service because that's your love language, or... Thank you so much for watching. I feel like in therapy, that was one of the biggest things I learned is what my love language was and what Drew's love language is because we have completely different love languages.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And if you're thinking of starting therapy, BetterHelp is a wonderful, super-duper option. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving over 5 million people worldwide. You can access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists, and they have a wide range of specialties. Discover your relationship's green flags with BetterHelp.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Visit betterhelp.com slash morbid today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash morbid. Every 26 seconds, a burglary takes place in the U.S., according to FBI data. That means by the time this podcast ends, dozens of homes will have been targeted. Protect your home before it's too late with SimpliSafe's proactive security system.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Sellers can also sync their product catalog directly with Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and Google to reach more customers and reduce the steps for a purchase. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, www.squarespace.com slash morbid to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And this is Morbid.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
SimpliSafe helps stop threats before they even have the chance to break in. I love my SimpliSafe system. I feel so good arming that thing at night and going to sleep knowing that my home is protected even when I'm sleeping, even when I'm away. Traditional security systems only take action after somebody has already broken in, and that is too late.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
But SimpliSafe's ActiveGuard outdoor protection can help prevent break-ins before they even happen. AI-powered cameras backed by live professional monitoring agents monitor your property and detect suspicious activity. So many people in my neighborhood I've noticed have SimpliSafe, and I 10 out of 10 recommend.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Visit simplisafe.com slash morbid to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and your first month free. That's simplisafe.com slash morbid. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. When the car finally did come to a stop, they were in a remote area on the Huntington Beach Bluffs, which is about a 15 minute drive from where he picked her up.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
15 minutes is such a long time in a situation like that. Oh my God. That must have felt like a hundred years.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
She tried to run as soon as the door was open, but he caught her by the arm and dragged her to an area near the edge of the bluffs, where he forced her to sit down and smoke a joint with him.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Yeah. So as he just tried to make small talk with her at that point on the bluffs, luckily, a park ranger a few hundred yards below them spotted the pair and decided just to head up to see what was going on. Something seemed off to the ranger.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Didn't give off bad vibes. Well, and I think it's also the fact that he preys on young people.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Who don't necessarily trust their instincts.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Yeah, something's up. Well, he also looks like a fucking predator. Yeah. He does. And he's also, like, pushing young girls into weird situations.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
So, like, not to take away from what you just said, because I completely agree. But it's also, like, visualize a, like, man in his mid-20s, like, pulling this girl along who's 13. Yeah. And you're going to be like, what the fuck is that? Yeah. But it's just the fact that they actually acted too. That's the thing, yeah.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And later we'll see there were people who saw things and just looked the other way.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
So he carefully climbed up to the top of the bluffs and moved really quietly along the way to make sure he didn't draw any attention to himself. And when he got close, he could smell the weed in the air. So when he reached the area where they were sitting, he finally made his presence known and was like, hey, what's up here? And Alcala answered.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
He said, we were just hiking and now we're taking a break. But he had barely finished his sentence when Julie blurted out that Alcala had kidnapped her, brought her there against her will and was now making her, forcing her to smoke pot with him.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Now, uncertain which of the two he should believe because he doesn't know either of these people. You know, I don't know.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
But like whatever. But he arrested them both and brought them to Huntington Beach Police Station. At the station, Rodney and Julie were separated and they were each separately questioned. And Alcala stuck to his story, telling the officer that he and Julie had gone for a hike and actually she was the one who supplied the joint and said they should smoke together.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Julie, meanwhile, stuck to her own story, which was the truth, explaining that she had accepted a ride from this man. He refused to drop her off at school and he had taken her out in the bluffs against her will and also made her smoke weed when she didn't want to.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Thinking that she might be lying in order to avoid punishment for being out with an older man and smoking pot, the officer also didn't know who to believe. But luckily, he ran a background check on Rodney Alcala, and the result came back identifying him as a fucking sex offender on parole.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
So police released Julie to her parents, and Rodney was booked on charges of supplying drugs to a minor, kidnapping, and violating parole.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Brought to you by allergies. Yeah. What the fuck? It's like winter. I didn't know that allergies existed in the winter. Yeah.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
I'm like, talk about trauma. And like a wake up call to the fucking way that the world works is you're a woman. So unfortunately, people probably aren't going to believe you most of the time. So fucked up. That's crazy. Yeah. He spent a month... Rodney spent a month awaiting a hearing.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And when he went before the judge the day after Christmas in 1974, for some reason, the kidnapping and drug charges were dropped. I gotta go. Leaving only a parole violation. So he got a sentence of two and a half years at the California Institution for Men in Chino. Are you kidding me? I am not. The legal system failed all of these women for a very long time.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
What? It's unreal. That's insane. It's unreal. Oh, just wait for this next part. Oh, God. So in July 1977, he was paroled from prison for the second time with the requirement that obviously he check in regularly with his parole officer on a weekly basis.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Surprisingly, after just two visits, one, two, with the parole officer, Alcala, a registered sex offender with a history of violence and a known flight risk, was granted permission by that same officer, that parole officer, to travel to New York to quote-unquote visit some relatives. And a week later, he left California for New York. Where remember, he's already gone and terrorized women.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
They just don't happen to know that yet. I...
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
That's wild. It only gets worse. Wow. Jesus Christ. Wow. Given her social status and her family's wealth, investigators actually assumed that Ellen's disappearance would be followed by some kind of ransom demand. Yeah. But when no demand came, they were forced to consider that she was most likely a victim of foul play.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Early in the investigation, Ellen's friend Richard Middlemark told detectives that he actually had made plans with Ellen on July 13th to go to a Broadway show, the two of them. And when he called to confirm, she told him that she was going to have lunch at Bloomingdale's with a photographer. And she expected to be home by 4 p.m. that same day.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
She never mentioned the photographer's name, but in their search of Ellen's apartment, investigators found the name John Berg written on a calendar beside the date that she went missing. John Berger. John Berg. A friend who was with Ellen earlier that day said he spotted her talking to a, quote,
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
most likely rodney alcala i mean that describes him when her friend asked who the quote-unquote freaky looking guy was ellen replied oh he's all right he's a photographer Oh, man. Yeah.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Nearly a year later in June of 1978, investigators, actually with the help of a New York psychic, discovered the skeletal remains of Ellen Hover buried beneath a pile of rocks in North Tarrytown, which is a small town about 30 miles outside of Manhattan. So she was far from home, too, which just breaks your fucking heart. Oh, that's so sad.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
I feel like you're making me think that I am sniffly, but I don't even know if I am. But I'm now like it's a weird placebo that's going on. Yeah. You're like feeling sympathy sniffles. Oh, my God. I have sympathy sniffles.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Based on the condition of the remains when they were discovered, arriving at an actually conclusive cause of death was next to impossible. But the medical examiner did suspect strangulation to be the cause because there was damage to the hyoid bone. Based on the medical examiner's report, Ellen's missing person case was transferred to the homicide division.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
But there was little evidence to work with. And at that point, the case started going cold. Yeah. But don't worry, I will tell you that things work out there. Oh, good. I think it's part three we get to it. Okay. So in the meantime, Rodney Alcala returned to LA late in the summer of 1977, where he would embark on a murder spree that would result in the deaths of at least six more women. Holy shit.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And I say at least because to this day, they're still not sure how many people he killed. Wow. Yeah. So when Rodney went back to California, he moved back in with his mommy and found a job as a typesetter with the Los Angeles Times, claiming on his resume that he had held several similar positions in the past. False, because during the timeframes he provided, he was literally in prison.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And apparently no one looked into that. Yeah, cool. But he quickly settled into the workplace culture. He amped up his charm. He mingled with the women in the office every chance he got. One of his former co-workers said he would talk about going to parties in Hollywood. It seemed like he knew famous people. But not everybody was so charmed.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Another co-worker, Sharon Gonzalez, told a reporter that Rodney would show her photographs from his portfolio of girls and young women, and many of those girls and young women were posed nude. She said he was very open about his sexuality. And when she asked him why he had taken the photos, this is disgusting. He told her that their parents had hired him to do so. Oh, my God.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
No one's parents hired you to take naked pictures of their children. Are you kidding me? Nobody hired you for that. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? Jesus Christ. So, while he was settling into his new job at the newspaper, on the other side of the country, 18-year-old Jill Barkham was on her way to LA from Oneida, New York. She was eager to start a new life on the West Coast.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
She was one of 11 children in her family. She was the middle child, and by the time she finished high school, she was very determined to just find an adventure far away from home.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
like most young people from the suburbs obviously when she thought of one of the most exciting places to go in america she quickly settled on hollywood so as soon as they were able to go she and two friends from school packed up their car and they headed to la that fall which should have been ridiculously exciting yeah i mean she's 18 let's go yeah out on your own
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
On the morning of November 10th, 1977, George Newton, who was an employee with the Department of Water and Power, was cleaning debris from the side of Franklin Canyon Drive near the reservoir when he saw something strange lying in a ditch. When he got closer to take a look, he realized that he was looking at the dead, partially clothed body of a young woman.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
So he ran back to his truck and radioed dispatch who called the police for him and reported the discovery. Now, that summer in L.A., two young women had been sexually assaulted and murdered by a killer that the press had dubbed the Hillside Strangler. Strangler.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Exactly. And those are episodes 256 and 258, if you want to go back to that coverage that Alina did. So when they arrived at the scene at Franklin Canyon Drive, detectives felt pretty confident that they just discovered the strangler's third victim. Yeah. This next part is a bit graphic. I just want to let you know.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Yeah. Guys. Lilo, not full-blown Lilo, is here. Yeah. But like her distant relative. Yeah, her cousin is here. Exactly. But I'm not the one that's going to be talking much, so that's good. I'm going to be talking a lot because we are on part two of Rodney Alcala, who is such a shit stain.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
The young woman was positioned on all fours with her knees tucked toward her chest. She was nude from the waist down and there was obvious evidence of a violent sexual assault. A large rock lay in a pool of blood on the ground next to her, and she too had been strangled with a blue rope that was knotted in three places. Holy shit.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And they also found two impressions in the dirt that appeared to be from a man's shoe. So at least they had that to go on.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
detective ron lewis of the lapd robbery homicide division told reporters it appeared that the body had been there for some time it seemed like she put up a struggle and her killer had beaten her badly before strangling her first with his hands and then with the rope jesus and this is a little graphic her pubic hair on the left side appeared to be singed and there was additional evidence indicating that she had been burned as well with a likely with a lighter
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
holy shit yeah she suffered immensely did you this does feel like the hillside strangler it does like i understand why they thought that was the same because it's and it's a little off for rodney but he's also starting to escalate yeah uh the medical examiner did collect fluids from her body but of course dna testing was at least a decade away at that point
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
other than the footprints and the blood evidence the scene was void of any evidence that would lead to the identity of the victim or the killer at that point but fortunately investigators got a match on the victim's fingerprints from a previous arrest in new york earlier that year okay
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
According to the report, Jill Barkham, quote, was known by several sex workers in Oneida who referred to her as Little Bit. Oh, stop.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
I know. After contacting police in New York, investigators learned that Jill had only been in L.A. for about two weeks.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
wow two weeks wow she goes across the country to start a new this new adventure that she's so excited about two weeks she'd been there damn within a couple of weeks detectives in la had connected at least 11 strangulation murders that uh that they were attributing to what they thought was the hillside strangler including at that point the murder of jill barkham
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Lieutenant Edwin Henderson told a group of reporters in early December, similarities tend to make us believe there's a connection between these murders. Eventually, as we know, police would arrest and charge Kenneth Bianchi and his cousin Angelo Buono with the Hillside Strangler murders. But when questioned about the murder of Jill Barkham, both of them denied having anything to do with her death.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Yeah, exactly. In fact, the investigation into Jill Barkham's death would remain unsolved until 2004. Wow. When a DNA match to Rodney Alcala was made to the semen collected from Jill's body all the way back in 1977. Wow. Which is truly remarkable. That really is. But it's so sad that her family had no idea what happened to her for all those years. Yeah. It's the new year.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
I just have to say at the top of this, I have been having the worst time falling asleep just because of this case. Oh, yeah. The details are just running through my brain at night, and I need to figure out a way to.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
I am so ready to get back on my BS baby. And that is coming in big time when it comes to food planning, meal prepping, that whole thing. You know, it's a crazy statistic, though. Over 10,000 chemicals have entered our U.S. food supply, but the EU limits this to just 300 additives.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
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The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
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The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
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The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
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The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
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The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
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The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
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The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Now, in early December, investigators in New York had discovered a possible link between the murder of Ellen Hauver and Rodney Alcala when a search for the alias John Berger came back as one used by Alcala. Acting on a request from the FBI, LAPD officers actually picked up Alcala on December 14th, 1977, and they brought him to the precinct for questioning about Ellen's case.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
To their surprise, not only did he admit knowing Ellen Hover, but he also said that he met with her for a photo shoot on the day she went missing. But he emphatically stated that he had nothing to do with her disappearance, he just took some pictures. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's probably just a coincidence.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And despite his insistence that he was definitely innocent, he refused to take a polygraph test. And detectives had no reason to hold him, so they had to let him go.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
LAPD detective Cliff Shepard said there was nothing to hold him on because there was no body, so he was released. Because at that point, they didn't have it. Man. Yeah. So on December 16th, just two days after he was interrogated by the LAPD for Ellen's disappearance, the LA County Sheriff's officer received a call regarding 27-year-old nurse Georgia Marie Wickstead.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
According to the caller, Wickstead had failed to pick up a co-worker for her carpool that morning, and she also hadn't shown up for work, and both of those things were very out of character for her. She always showed up on time. She was somebody that her friends could rely on. Yeah. Repeated calls to Georgia's apartment also went unanswered.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
So after the call, Deputy Jeffrey Cannon was dispatched to just go do a typical well-being check. Yeah. Not expecting much there.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
When he arrived at Georgia Wickstead's apartment complex, Cannon was met by deputies Jack Nenninger and Mike Powers, and the three men made their way through the courtyard to Georgia's apartment. The first thing they noticed was that a screen was missing on one of the three large windows at the front of the apartment, and it had been propped up against a building beside the window.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
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The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Against the building, excuse me. And that's always chilling to see. And there was also a box positioned underneath the window, like somebody had obviously used it to climb through. And there were also scuff marks outside the wall that seemed like they were made by shoes or boots. Like as he's climbing in. So this person literally broke into her apartment.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
But when they tried the door handle, deputies were surprised to find that the door was actually unlocked. Inside the apartment, it was nearly 90 degrees. Yeah, 90 degrees and completely dark, like almost pitch black. So they switched on their flashlights. Among the first things they saw when they swept their lights across the room was a dead body lying on the floor.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
They drew their guns and searched a different room in the apartment looking for the killer. Just have to be sure that he's not still there. Yeah, you don't know if he's still there. And, of course, any additional victims. But once they secured the apartment, they called for additional officers and, of course, the coroner.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
With the curtains open and the lights on, the deputies were able to see the full extent of the violence committed in Georgia Wickstead's apartment. And it was, I can't imagine having to leave that scene and go about your life after that. Georgia was lying on the floor on her back. She was nude and completely covered in bruises, lacerations, and blood.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
A pair of tights were tied around her neck and knotted several times. On the bed next to her, there was a large blood stain in the center of her mattress, and there was blood splatter all over the bed frames and on all four walls. By her head, detectives found a claw hammer that seemed to have been used in the assault.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
He's far more brutal than I ever even knew. The autopsy report included an extensive list of injuries, including significant trauma to her face and head, skull fractures, extensive lacerations covering her body, and a fractured and dislocated arm. So she fought like hell. Yeah. Yeah.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And it's different because I'm not like fully submersed and like putting them together and then presenting them. This one, like obviously Dave helped like immensely putting most of this together. I don't even know how Dave is sleeping at night. But then like I was like, you know, twisting like things around, like moving them around. I'm like, oh, God. Yeah. Jesus Christ. Oh, it's awful.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
The medical examiner wrote almost every injury was inflicted while she was still alive and blood was still pumping through her body.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Yeah, which is awful. The ultimate cause of death listed was ligature strangulation. Holy shit. So she even survived those blows to the head with a claw hammer. Oh, my God. Although his previous murders were obviously violent, the attack on Georgia Wickstead seemed particularly brutal by comparison. And unhinged. Unhinged. Yeah. Like, out of control.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Detective Cliff Shepard said, I think he did that one to show that he could kill with impunity. Yeah. It feels that way. I think so, too. And I think he's like, look, you'll arrest me and I'll still go out and do it.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And I'll go even harder than I have.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And you still won't catch me. Yeah. Because you just keep letting me go. So look what I can do.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
However, unlike his previous crime scenes, which were light on evidence, this time he had left behind critical evidence in the form of semen, blood evidence, and even a partial palm print. Oh, wow. Yeah.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
While the DNA and blood evidence, again, wouldn't prove useful for at least another decade, the palm print was the first piece of solid evidence that investigators could find, and all detectives needed was a hand to match it to. After the murder of Georgia Wickstead, though, Rodney Alcala just returned to his ordinary fucking life. God, this guy.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Yeah, just went back to his job at the Times, was taking photographs on the side for extra money, photographing people's weddings, which is truly unthinkable that he could do that and then go to a wedding ceremony and take pictures. Wow.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
In March of 1978, the LAPD's Hillside Strangler Task Force had narrowed down their list of suspects and were questioning those they believed could be involved in the brutal string of killings. And as a child rapist, his name was among those on the list, so police paid him a visit at his mother's house to question him. I just have to say, like, his mom must be like, what's going on?
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Like, police are showing up here all the time. But every time they show up, she tells them that he has nothing to do with anything.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Like, that's your son. If the police keep showing up and he keeps being linked to this many things.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Like, come on. I just needed to say that. So, although he was ruled out as a suspect in the Hillside case, while they were at his home, they discovered that he was in the possession of a small amount of marijuana, so they arrested him on a petty drug charge just to keep him.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
It earned him, that possession charge earned him a three-month jail sentence, so he spent three more months in jail and was released in late June of 1978. On the morning of June 21st, June 24th, excuse me, just days after he was released from jail, Zafar Shah, a resident at the Illinois apartment in El Segundo, made a truly brutal discovery.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
yeah but I do this thing where I had this therapist and she told me instead of focusing on because like I will if I have like a thought that I don't want to have I'm like no no no like don't think about that don't think about that don't think about yeah but that just makes it worse because it's like telling a toddler not to do something it just makes them want to do it more yeah I think your brain is essentially a toddler so I reckon I say I recognize that I'm having that thought and now I'm gonna move on to something else
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Shah had just entered the basement of the building to do some laundry when he almost stumbled over the body of 31-year-old Charlotte Lamb. And just days after he was released? Just days. Holy shit. Shaw ran to the building's manager office, and together they called the police, who arrived a little before noon.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Upon arrival, Detective William Gaynor was met by the building manager, who took him down into the basement. Lamb's body was lying nude on the floor, a long shoelace tied tightly around her neck, and a piece of wood with a small amount of blood splatter was next to her head. It was very clear that she had been sexually assaulted.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And among the more curious aspects of the crime scene, though, was that Lamb, who at that point had yet to be identified, didn't live at the Illinois apartments and was unknown to the residents there. So that wasn't even where she lived. And this is an apartment complex laundry room.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Wow. This attack was... Wow. He's an animal. Like he's a fucking animal. Literally a wild animal. A demon. Holy shit. And again, according to the autopsy, the majority of Charlotte's injuries were inflicted while she was still alive. And the ultimate cause of death was the ligature strangulation.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Yeah. Holy shit. Swabs of fluid and bite mark impressions were taken and stored for later analysis. Something they did do really well was keep all the, even though they couldn't use like the fluid evidence, the semen, that kind of stuff, they did a good job of taking it anyway and storing it.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
It doesn't seem like a lot of things got lost along the way. Which is great. Yeah. Now, days after Charlotte hadn't shown up for work and nobody had heard from her, several calls were placed to the LAPD to report her missing. At the same time, her car had been ticketed and was eventually impounded in Santa Monica.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And between the two events, investigators were finally able to identify Charlotte Lamb as the body discovered in that basement. But now, how she had wound up there would remain a mystery to everyone for some time to come. Yeah. Investigators pursued this case for months, but the evidence was scarce and leads were pretty slim.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
That September, Rodney Alcala's life took a bizarre turn when he was recruited as a contestant on the dating game. So this all of everything we've talked about so far has happened before he was even on the dating game. That's bonkers. And then he just goes on the dating game. The show became known for its frequent use of very risque double entendres and thinly veiled allusions to sexual objects.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
It was a spicy show. They would be like, sex. They'd be like, but they'd like say it different than that. They'd be like, sex, but not. Yeah. In this particular episode, bachelorette Cheryl Bradshaw asked the hidden bachelors, I'm serving you for dinner. What are you called and what do you look like?
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Yeah, I think they were pre-written. Very of the time.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Bachelor number one, Rodney, replied, I'm called the banana and I look really good. Peel me. I hate this a lot. I will fucking peel you.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Yeah. The response got a laugh out of Bradshaw in the audience, setting a kind of lighthearted tone. And throughout the episode, Alcala did his best, his absolute best, to charm Bradshaw, describing himself as a long-haired photographer who enjoyed skydiving and motorcycling in his spare time.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
There you go. And it does help a little bit. It does help. Yeah. So I hope that can also help anybody else out there.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
The legal system showed him you can be a fucking monster to children. Yeah. And you'll get away with it. And we'll let you out. And we'll let you out. You can serve like a couple years. Yeah. It'll be easy. And then you get out and just get right back to it. Yeah. And then maybe we'll get you, but maybe not. Maybe not. Yeah. It's just very disconcerting.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And this appearance on the dating game, like, obviously before Cheryl gets the weird feeling. And it's interesting that she actually, you know, she picked him. Yeah. And she was, you know, stunned by his charm in the moment. In the spotlight. In the spotlight when she can't see him. Exactly. And then she sees him.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
But it's a quick exchange. Even in that quick exchange, she sees him. And she sees him for exactly who the fuck he is.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And I think, and this is just like my personal thought, I think she saw his eyes. And I think she saw that there was something fucking dead behind those eyes.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Oh, his eyes are... so fucking beady and scary and it breaks my heart that they were the last thing some people saw yeah it's well i hate this guy but like i just said the audience loved alcala it seemed that cheryl did in the moment too especially when she chose him to be her date at the end of the episode she told the host well i like bananas so i'll take one meaning bachelor number one
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
As winners, Cheryl and Rodney were awarded tennis lessons and a trip to California's Magic Mountain Amusement Park. Can you fucking imagine if she had accepted that date and gone to tennis lessons with Rodney Alcala?
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Everyone will see it. You know he went into that being like, I'm going to win. Yeah. Like, I know I'm going to because he's a cocky motherfucker. And he did. He did win. Yeah. I think he thought, I'll just do this in front of America's face. Literally, I will do it in front of America's face.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
No. But... But yours is cool. And it could work for the non-neurotypicals out there.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
But he had been caught so many times.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
He was so sure because I do think he's a narcissist. Yeah. And, you know, me, armchair diagnosing.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
But then you also have to wonder because he didn't even get convicted. Everybody knew what he did to Tali Shapiro at eight years old. Everybody knew. So that gave him the full blown confidence to say, look what I can do to an eight year old girl in the middle of the fucking morning. at a place where she lives.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Less than three years. Yeah. And went to go do stuff again. I got caught with a 13 year old girl and I just blamed it on her. And I got, those charges got dropped. I just had to serve a parole violation for, I think it was three months.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
It's just whoa. I think he was a monster. And then I think the legal system even pushed him further into believing.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Well, I just can't imagine how she felt when she... Finding out what had happened to those poor women and girls before her. Before her and after her. Yeah. Because he goes on another spree. This is just one spree. Jeez. Have you ever grown tired of searching for your favorite movies and TV shows across numerous streaming accounts?
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Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
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The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
So like we know, when the show finished taping, like I said at the top of part one, Cheryl started to feel like she'd made a bad choice. According to former homicide detective Matt Murphy, the moment where he comes around the partition and Cheryl Bradshaw looks at him, there's a moment in her eyes where you can see she's being polite, but she did refuse to go on a date with him.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
See, and he said it. I want to watch it back. I've seen clips, but I've never seen the two of them interact.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Immediately after seeing Alcala in person, like we know, she went to Ellen Metzger, who was the show's producer, and she said, Ellen, I can't go out with this guy. There's weird vibes that are coming off him. He's very strange. I'm not comfortable. Will that be a problem? And again, thankfully, Ellen Metzger assured her it was not going to be a problem.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
She was not under any obligation to go on this date. And Cheryl left the studio that afternoon, like we know, completely unaware that she narrowly avoided spending time with a brutal killer. Jesus. It turned out Cheryl Bradshaw was not the only person put off by Alcala's strange, very intense energy.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
According to Jed Mills, who was one of the other bachelors on the episode, I'll call his strange behavior and demeanor in the green room before the taping, he felt was very bizarre and very off-putting. Wow. He said, "'I'm kind of bending toward the other guy to get away from him, and I don't know if I did that consciously.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
He was quiet, but at the same time he would interrupt and impose whenever he felt like it, and he was very obnoxious and creepy. He became very unlikable and rude and imposing, as though he was trying to intimidate.'" Huh. Yeah. And just to think that this other bachelor found himself pulling away from this guy physically. Like this man was like, yeah.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Like something about Rodney's energy made him move away from him, whether he meant to or not.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Yeah. Rodney's failure on the dating game did not seem to affect his confidence in any way. In February of 1979, just a few months after being rejected by Cheryl Bradshaw, Alcala was back out on the streets looking for a new victim.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Oh, yeah, I'm sure. We'll find out in part three that he was a stalker.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
But like I said, just a few months after that, he was back out on the streets looking for a new victim on February 13th, just the day before Valentine's Day. He was driving through Riverside, California, when he spotted 15-year-old Monique Hoyt hitchhiking, and he stopped and offered her a ride.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
His backseat was full of camera equipment, and Alcala asked if he could take Monique's picture, telling her it was for a contest and they could both win a prize if he entered and they both won. To the 15-year-old, he seemed like a, quote, nice, charming, mild man, and he also came off as a legitimate photographer because he's got all this stuff with him. Yeah.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
So she agreed to let him take her picture. Yeah. By the time they reached Alcala's mother's house, he literally brought this girl back to his mother's house. This is a 15-year-old girl. Jesus Christ. Just going to state that for exactly what it is. Jesus Christ. The sun had started to go down and he told Monique that the next day would be better for pictures.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
So they spent the night together at his mom's house. She's 15. She's 15. Remember.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
When they woke up the next day, he packed the camera equipment into the car and they drove out to the desert area near Banning, about 80 miles outside of LA. So they drove for, you got to think, over an hour in the car together. Yeah. The first few photos that he took were simple posing shots.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
But before long, he asked Monique if she would be opposed to taking some nude photos, which he has no right to ask her because she's 15 years old. Because she's a literal child. And she can't consent to that. No. A 15-year-old. Wow. But eventually, the pain and the trauma of it all became too much, and she started screaming.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And at that point, he yelled at her to shut up, stuffed her t-shirt into her mouth, and started choking her with his hands until she lost consciousness for the second time.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
When she woke up for the second time, she woke up and realized that her hands and feet were both bound. And now she looked next to her and saw that Rodney Alcala was lying beside her on a blanket, sobbing.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
I just can't imagine enduring what that girl endured at 15 years old. And then watching this man sit there and cry next to her on a blanket. Like, what? The level of confusion... She's also blacked out two times because he strangled her and hit her in the head.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
but still relied on her instincts and turned to Rodney and started comforting him, knowing that she could maybe reverse psychology him.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
She told him that she wanted to spend more time with him and said, can we just go back to your house? Would that be okay?
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
She also begged him not to tell anybody what had happened between them. She said, just don't tell anybody and I won't tell anybody.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
She begged him, don't say anything. He didn't respond to any of her questions, just remained completely silent. But it appeared that this reverse psychology worked. He started untying her silently, though.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
When meanwhile, your nervous system is probably the most fucking, is definitely the most panicked it's ever been. Your nervous system is losing its mind. Is out of whack. But your brain somehow, your mind, and your survival instincts must just kick in. Fascinating. But the tension. In this moment of him untying her completely silent. Yeah. And she's just sitting there hoping like this.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
I'm hoping this is working. Yeah. She has no idea. They could walk down together and he could hit her over the head again and this could all start back up. He's already horrifically assaulted her in every way. They both just silently got dressed and returned to the car and started driving again the long distance back to Los Angeles over 80 miles.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Once they made it down the mountain and entered Banning, Alcala stopped at a fast food restaurant and he went in to place an order. And he told Monique to wait for him while he went inside to use the bathroom. Wow. So he trusted her at that point. Because she got him to. She was able to convince him, I'm not going to say anything if you don't and I'd like to spend more time. time together. Yeah.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
As soon as he was out of sight, she ran to the motel next door and started screaming for help. One of the motel guests called 911 while some other people brought her into their room to wait for police. So again, more good Samaritans here. Yeah. Because some people hear people screaming and they're like, I don't want to get involved. Yeah, they're like, that sounds crazy.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Or I don't know what I heard, whatever. But these people heard her screaming, called the police and said, come in here, you're safe. Damn. I love it. So in the meantime, Alcala had returned to the car and obviously realized that Monique had escaped. So he got back into the car and just dipped, like, fled that scene completely. Piece of shit.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
When police got there, Monique gave a description of her kidnapper and she knew his name. So she told them his name. And after picking him out of a photo lineup of six images, investigators knew exactly where to find Rodney Alcala. Of course they did. At his mom's house. Yeah. Because that's where he lives always. Yeah. He was quickly arrested for the assault the next day. Yeah.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
In his interview with detectives, he claimed that Monique had agreed to be photographed by him, and she said that she would, quote, simulate sex acts.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
He said eventually she changed her mind, and that's when he started choking her.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Yeah. Yeah. He told the detectives that the situation had gotten out of hand. He never intended to attack her. He said, you're in an unreasoning situation. Your brain and you just don't seem to know what to do. You're not reasoning. You're not thinking. I raped her. So he literally told police outright, I raped her.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
No. So given his violent criminal history, the prosecutor asked the judge to set the bail at $50,000 for Rodney. Yeah. For some motherfucking crazy ass reason, the judge found that amount to be too high.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
For the second time. For the second time, everybody. Okay.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
I want to look at all of these people today and be like, hey, you all got blood on your hands. Yeah, I want to be like, how do you feel? How does that feel? Do you guys sleep at night? They absolutely do. Do you sleep good at night? Why? I'm like, did you read the wrong transcript? You knew that he had already raped a child and now he's being accused of raping a child again? Yeah.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And you're like, nah, $50,000 is too high. How about no bail? Like, I don't know what all the rules are for bail, but obviously there was the option here to set it higher at $50,000. He would have killed her. Absolutely. He raped her. He abducted her. He took lewd photos of her.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And also literally was choking the life out, choked her to the point of unconsciousness at least one time and hit her in the face so hard with a tree branch that she lost consciousness a second time. Like, are you fucking serious, dude? So his bail was set at just $10,000 and his mommy wasted no time coming to his aid, believing that there must have been some terrible mistake.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
On March 16th, Rodney was released on bail and returned to Mommy's house to await his trial, which was scheduled for September. That is disgusting. And that is where we're going to wrap for part two. In part three, we will see yet another flop of a legal system and many other women who ended up losing their lives because of that. That is unthinkable.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
But luckily, he gets caught and apprehended and goes to multiple trials, which is really fucking annoying in and of itself, but it ends on a good note. At least there's that.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
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The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
You accuse him of rape and his bail gets set at $10,000 and he gets out. I can't. The man who raped you after beating you and strangling you unconscious twice is just out on the streets again? I really can't. How do you deal with that at all? How do you rationalize that in your brain?
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
You're not a big admin girlie, but maybe that's why. Maybe you're doing so much admin in your brain.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
I also think you worked a lot of office jobs. I did, yeah. Yeah. And I never worked an office job.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Your brain is... I feel like that's very, very right-brained of you.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
I'm going to have to try the trash one because I haven't tried that.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Then it can be helpful. Yeah. Or recognize that you're having the thought, let yourself have the thought and also let it pass.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
We've given you so many ways to get rid of your yucky thoughts.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
See, for someone like me, if you don't let yourself have the thought, it's just going to try harder to get into the thought. And see, that's where mine goes. No, don't let yourself have the thought. Throw it in the trash. No, I got to let myself. It's also like weird exposure therapy, I think. I don't know. I love it. Well, that's our brains for you. They're fucking weird. But here we are.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
You like us if you're listening most of the time.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Sometimes. Most of you anyway. Most of you. So let's get back into it. We're on part two of Rodney Alcala. In part one, we kind of started in the middle talking about Rodney's appearance on the popular show, The Dating Game. and how he was immediately off-putting to female contestant Cheryl Bradshaw.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
We went over Rodney's early life, how he was abruptly discharged from the military after, I guess you could say, some sort of psychotic break, it seems. We went over his first attacks on many women, and of course, at the end, his capture in New Hampshire, while he was working at a children's summer camp under the name of John Berger.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
John Berger. Isn't that Sex and the City?
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Yeah. I'll never understand that. I'm sorry. I can't. Don't hate me. Don't hate me. Douchebag.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
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The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
But back to the story. After years of searching for Rodney after the brutal attack on eight-year-old Tali Shapiro, Steve Hodel there had finally captured the man whose crimes had so deeply disturbed everybody familiar with the case, especially Steve Hodel himself. Yeah. and ultimately a very serious disappointment. So the district attorney's office, yeah, great.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
The district attorney's office was eager to charge Alcala for the attack on Tali, but there was a problem. The Shapiro family, like I said in part one, had left the country, understandably so.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Yeah, and they were difficult to get a hold of, again, understandably so. And Tali's parents had spent the previous years doing everything they could to shield their daughter from any further trauma, which included talking about the attack. Yeah, I get it. And the fact that she doesn't remember anything, like, about that.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
One, they don't want to trigger any memories. And two, they did their job and they did it correctly because she doesn't have any memories.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
So whatever her family did for her worked. Yeah. Maybe it didn't work out in a court sense right here, right now.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
It made her okay and that's all I care about personally.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
But the prosecutor tried to convince the Shapiros to return to LA and allow Tali to testify against Alcala, but the family did not want to put their eight-year-old daughter through that.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And I don't blame them. I get it. But without their main witness, which also happened to... Or who also happened to be Alcala's accuser, the district attorney had no choice to either offer him a deal or drop the case altogether. Because it just wasn't going to be as strong.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
And it's like, you can still present the facts without her there and tell a jury. Of course, it's going to drive the point home harder if you see the actual girl. It's going to pull on your heartstrings.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
But I think they were just worried. Yeah, of course. And you can understand why. So unwilling to completely drop the case altogether, the DA was willing to allow Alcala to plead to the lesser charge of child molestation. which is fucking insane that that's a lesser charge. That's insane to me. Child molestation is a lesser charge. Like, we gotta do better. We gotta do better, guys.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
So he was going to plead to that in exchange for an indeterminate sentence of anywhere from one year to life in prison. So this could go so many ways. That's quite a stretch.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Given the circumstances, which we all know from part one, the prosecutor expected the judge to impose a pretty lengthy sentence, but was absolutely shocked when Alcala was sentenced to one to ten years with the opportunity for parole after just one year. That's honestly disgusting. It is. And it's despicable.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
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The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Ultimately, he would serve 34 months in prison for the attempted murder of 8-year-old Tali Shapiro.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
yep what the fuck is wrong with everybody would have if not for a good samaritan literally would have she'd be gone absolutely 100 000 so after he was sentenced and you know was kind of writing out some of a sentence a prison psychologist deemed him quote-unquote considerably improved and recommended him for parole in 1974 well they should be fucking ashamed of themselves
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
Also, yeah, of course he's considerably improved because there's not women and children in prison for him to prey upon. He should... Considerably improved? There's no temptation for him.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
That's disgusting. It is such a tragedy that so much more came after that. And he did his job.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
But nope, that's not the story. After his release, Alcala returned to living with his mother in LA and started supporting himself as a wedding photographer. Can you fucking imagine if this man photographed your wedding?
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
How do you reconcile that later? I don't think you do. I think you have them redone at that point. Yeah. To the parole board, he seemed to be adhering perfectly to the terms of his parole, but it didn't take long before he gave in to his worst impulses.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
One afternoon in mid-October, just two months after his release from prison, he was driving around Huntington Beach when he spotted 13-year-old Julie Johnson. She was waiting at a bus stop outside a shopping center. Just as he had with Tali Shapiro years earlier, he pulled his car up to the sidewalk and offered her a ride. At first, she paid no attention to him.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
So he put on some charm and he said he had some great posters that he wanted to show her, which is so fucking creepy. The trick worked, though, which you can understand. It's a 13-year-old, and again, it's a very different time.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
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The Charlie Kirk Show
Putting the Heat on GOP Senators ft. Megyn Kelly
julie agreed to go with him on the condition that he drop her off at school but as they started driving she noticed that the man who said his name was john ronald had driven right past her school and when she pointed that out he said something about needing to check out an apartment and promised it wouldn't take too long and then he'd get her to school