Alice
Appearances
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
I mean, we already moved forward. You are involving the radio and you have all these feelings and all these things going on in your mind. I just want to make sure you're okay because we're definitely okay over here.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
As long as she doesn't want my husband, I'm good to go. Okay.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
I mean, no, that's fine. I just want our girls to be able to play together and get to know one another. Like, that's all that matters. Yeah.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
Hello. Oh, hi. Is this Alex?
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
I'm good. I can't complain. I'm just getting ready for this party we have in a few days, and I'm definitely not prepared. Oh, my gosh. I know how that goes.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
Yeah, and... You don't seem surprised by this. I mean, shoot, he's not looking to date now, if that's what you're wondering. We're married, so... Okay, hold on, hold on.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
Do you feel this way because you still have feelings for him or I'm genuinely confused. No, no, no, no. Or anyone would be uncomfortable. Like, I mean, he's told me all about you. Okay. So, you know, he told you about this. Yeah. He said it was a really, it was a really hard breakup. When you got dumped, he didn't want to hurt you. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I understand. I'm a woman first.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
I totally get it. No, he, first of all, I didn't get dumped. I dumped him.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
Well, listen, honey, everybody gets dumped. It's okay. It's no need to be embarrassed. It's nothing to be embarrassed about. Okay, what? I mean, I haven't, but I can imagine the pain of getting dumped. Okay. Wow. No, no, no, no, no. That's not what happened. And I know denial comes with it. And no, you have nothing to worry about. Our daughters, they like each other.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
Okay, do you, like, see a therapist at all? Or have you ever considered that? Because it's not, like, you definitely should. Oh, my God. Okay. Wow. Wait, what is all this?
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
Oh, yeah. No, we my husband and I talked already. We know what's going on. Like she's someone of the past. And I just I feel like she may still be a little hurt.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
Welcome to classwithmason.com. I'm your host, Alice, and today we're diving into an insightful essay by Oliver Goldsmith titled The Man in Black. This essay gives us a candid look at the society of Goldsmith's time, where economic and moral decline left many people struggling in poverty and despair.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
After hearing the sailor's story about how he lost his leg, the man in black, moved by his bravery, immediately offers a shilling. He doesn't hesitate, his heart compels him to help, despite his earlier harsh words. The same pattern repeats when he encounters a poor woman, tattered and carrying two children.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
She's singing a sad song that blurs the line between weeping and singing, and the man in black, deeply moved by her plight, instinctively reaches into his pocket to help. Unfortunately, he realizes he has nothing left to give and his inability to aid her weighs heavily on him. through these encounters, we see the depth of the man in black's character.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
While his exterior is cold and severe, his actions reveal a man of deep compassion. He may not openly admit his generosity, but his spirit shines through in moments of quiet charity. Goldsmith uses this character to remind us that sometimes human goodness is hidden behind a harsh exterior and that empathy and kindness are often found in unexpected places.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
That's all for today's discussion on Oliver Goldsmith's The Man in Black. I hope this gave you some valuable insights into the complexities of the essay and the world Goldsmith was critiquing.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
Goldsmith doesn't directly call for reform but instead introduces us to the mysterious man in black as a means to expose these societal flaws. Through this character, Goldsmith not only shares his own perspectives but also critiques the norms of the time, advocating for a more compassionate and empathetic society.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
Now, let's talk a bit about Oliver Goldsmith himself. He's widely known for his literary masterpieces, including the novel The Vicar of Wakefield, the play She Stoops to Conquer, and his essays in The Citizen of the World, from which The Man in Black is taken.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
In this essay, Goldsmith adopts the persona of Oltangi, a Chinese philosopher, to narrate his interactions with The Man in Black, who represents a complex combination of humor, humanism, and contradiction. So who exactly is the man in black? On the surface, he comes across as a miser and a misanthrope, but beneath that exterior lies a kind heart.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
Though he appears cynical, his actions often reveal his true nature, a deeply generous and empathetic soul. For example, when all Tangi and the man in black are out walking, they encounter a beggar. Though the man in black criticizes beggars in conversation, he secretly slips a silver coin to the man, all while pretending to remain indifferent. This act of charity goes unnoticed or so he thinks.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
He reprimands the beggar for what he believes to be a false sob story, but his actions betray his words. This tension between his outward persona and his inward compassion is a recurring theme throughout the essay. One of the most telling moments occurs when the man in black meets a sailor with a wooden leg.
CreepCast
Best of Creep Cast 2024
What is this, some kind of creep cast? I've been listening to a lot of creep cast, and these are just some suggestions that I have.
CreepCast
Best of Creep Cast 2024
A demon? A skinwalker? What is this, some kind of creep cast? I've been listening to a lot of creep cast, and these are just some suggestions that I have.
CreepCast
Best of Creep Cast 2024
It's like, hey, mom, my story did pretty well on this subreddit. She's like, who cares? Do you have a wife yet?
CreepCast
Best of Creep Cast 2024
that involves making backhanded comments or negative comments to make someone feel bad about themselves.
IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson
Break Up With Him When It’s Over with Elaine Welteroth
Hi, Michelle. My name is Alice. I'm 30 years old and I've been in a relationship for about six years. I desperately want to have children and I know that I want to be a mom. However, my boyfriend doesn't feel ready and doesn't think he will ever want kids. But he's not totally sure. We're very much in love and do see a future together, but I just can't imagine a life without children.
IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson
Break Up With Him When It’s Over with Elaine Welteroth
And I feel like I need to know soon whether or not that's in the cards for us so I can move on if I need to. So my question is, have you ever seen a man change his mind about wanting kids in his 30s? And if so, what prompted it?
IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson
Break Up With Him When It’s Over with Elaine Welteroth
And if we do decide to break up and I reenter the dating scene, what important questions should I be asking potential suitors to avoid spending another six years in a relationship where our visions are not aligned? Thank you. So, yeah, this speaks to you, doesn't it?
SmartLess
"RE-RELEASE: Tina Fey"
All right, guys. Love you, Tina. Thank you. Thanks, Tina. Bye, everybody. Boy, just another... She wanted to get off there at the end.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
Dad worked at Bracken Ridge Hospital here in Austin when he was in college. And he would see when somebody got cancer, he made up his mind then, if he ever got cancer, then he would just take his life and get it over with.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
And of course, she—that very first meeting, our very first call— She's telling us that, oh, he had cancer. Three different doctors had told him he had cancer. It was inoperable. And I'm thinking, oh, shit.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
So it was actually Terry that communicated that he had died to us. And I remember, again, also thinking, holy shit, I can't believe Dad got sucked into the to the death ring as everybody else, but it looks like he did.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
So we filed the wrongful death suit.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
His guns were magically locked up or something like that. Because he had an old .22 rifle that I grew up shooting and learning how to shoot. He had a double-barreled 12-gauge shotgun and he had a .30-06 rifle. and never did find those. But she let me take some of his other stuff, including his bracelet that he wore.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
And then eventually, I ended up getting his big opal that he also wore around his neck. I don't think Terry would have been as open to allow me to go get some of his stuff. But you could tell Kathy was feeling bad about Dad.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
I'm pretty convinced that she, you know, convinced him. Terry's typical mode was to find out what created the most issues for people and then leverage that against them to do things like take their life.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
Just seeing the family break up was just a, it was just a tough thing for me at that time. And of course, I'm only 19 at this time.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
Terry made up stories about stuff Mom had done that wasn't quite true. These stories about her fooling around with other men, which I don't believe she ever did.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
I remember the apartment he was living in, not too far from Terry, over there in Dallas. And I remember him telling me that he had started dating her.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
I found that very interesting because, as I described before, Terry's... from a physical perspective, isn't the most attractive person. And I think I did question him. I'm like, you know, why Terry? And it felt like he talked more about the need to help her, to help her with her businesses, to help her with the books.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
He would spend a ton of time running her businesses, you know, whether it was making cassette tapes for some of the lessons, you know, getting books printed, going and taking care of their properties. I went camping with him a couple of times up at Cripple Creek and then spending hours in the documents looking for mineral rights for the land that they owned and things like that.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
Okay, we were like... I remember my dad making fun of me not shaving for the wedding. But yeah, I mean, it was the typical conscious development crowd and the usual suspects that were there. Terry was wearing, I think it was a light blue dress, as I recall.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
Now she ended up getting, you know, meeting a man pretty quickly and getting remarried pretty quickly.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
She was like, oh, I guess you need to eat food, huh? So she's like, oh, okay, let me go round up some money. And so she went and rounded up like eight bucks or so and gave it to me and said, here you go, go buy whatever you want.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
She got over that pretty quickly. That was about the only time when she was like, oh yeah, I guess you're now my stepson, so I guess I need to feed you, huh?
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
Terry was a hoarder, so their house was like Typical hoarders where you had paths to work your way through the living room and into the other rooms. The table was full of crap and, you know, there just wasn't a lot of room in that house, as I recall. I think she had four or five storage units in the backyard that she stuffed full of stuff. It was just nutty.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
There was kind of a master bedroom that was built up over the garage. So she lived up there and it had its own separate entrance that she could come and go. And she lived up there with her boyfriend who, mainly from what I remember, sold pot. And I remember them smoking pot all the time up there. You could smell it on that end of the house.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
I think they basically sold drugs to get the money that they had for it and stuff like that. So I remember one, and this is kind of a gross story, so you may have to cut it out of this podcast, but Terry used to do a lot of what she called energy work. It was basically massage therapy, and she had learned it over in India and everything else. And I remember her giving me a massage that was...
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
I mean, I have to admit, she was very talented. I just remember with John one time, we were sitting there watching TV or something like that, and Terry offered to give him a massage, and he's like, okay, yeah, great. And she goes, all right, we'll lose the pants. And so off comes his pants, and he's got a big brown spot on the back of his underwear. Sounds like he'd shit himself. I'm just like...
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
Oh, well, that's a little embarrassing, and he has no idea that he's done this.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
She would portray herself as this very advanced spiritual guru. She knew all the masters. She had all the information. But in real life, in living with her, you saw a whole different picture, right, of somebody who didn't have a lot of class, was very demanding on my dad, I remember, and pushed him hard to take care of things and manage her businesses and all that kind of stuff.
The Binge Cases: Baby Broker
Scary Terri | 4. Becoming Mrs. Hoffman
that him and Terry weren't getting along. He was actually thinking about a divorce and things like that. I remember him point blank saying that, which I found surprising because, well, they had only been married eight years, but he was pretty dedicated to her businesses and all those kinds of things. But I think he was starting to get fed up with just everything going on and people dying.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
I do, yes. I'm part of the leadership team for the youth section of East Surrey Performing Arts.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
Many, many times. We've had a great deal of fun and put on numerous performances here to great enjoyment and with the involvement of literally hundreds of children over the years.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
Well, you've got railings and barriers and none of us general public are going anywhere near it for the moment. But as we peer in through the window, we can see lots of scaffolding bars and planks and... Yes, it does indeed. Look, as though work will start shortly.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
Obviously this letter was extremely good news. It was celebrated by the Harlequin Support Group and it's been a long time coming. So really I can say that this is the first bit of good news we've had in a year. So we're very, very pleased and at last we have some indication of what some of the timings are. We will obviously keep the pressure up to make sure the timings don't slip.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
But as soon as those survey results are out and we know what we're dealing with, we feel that all the groups, the Reigate and Racial Society, the Harlequin Support Group, all the community arts groups involved should come together and help the council put the right plan together so that we get the best possible arts and cultural provision that we can do.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
I think that's a good way of putting it. I hope we've been polite but persistent. And I hope we've raised the profile of the issue. And I'm very grateful to all those of you who've commented, written in, written to your councillors and so on. Thank you so much. Yes, we were frustrated by the 11 months that apparently nothing happened.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
I know the lease is complicated and I know there were some sort of legal wrangles with Aviva, the property owner. But at last we've come to a sensible, pragmatic decision to at least get the survey done. And we need to know what the scale of the problem is that we're dealing with. So that is a great first step.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
Absolutely, I agree. It is the right time to do that survey as well. I would hope that the council has been doing... Condition checks on its buildings throughout its tenancy and over the years, so I hope there are no surprises there. That would be very disappointing if there were.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
There could indeed. As I say, it'll be a year empty next week, the one-year anniversary of its closure. So, yeah, let's hope there are no horrible surprises when those surveys are completed.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
Yes, the public consultation event scheduled for October has been mentioned once or twice, but yesterday was the first time a date was put on it.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
We don't know where, and we apparently know when, but in the...
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
views of the harlequin support group this is really too short notice if you're going to contact all the groups that have hired the harlequin in the past and get this news out across the across the borough properly you need more than two and a half weeks the risk of doing it on the 5th of october is that you'll get poor participation and also it does seem a little idiotic to have a consultation when we know the survey results are only going to be five weeks
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
It does. It does seem that we're now so close to knowing the survey results, it seems foolhardy to go ahead with a consultation without that knowledge in hand. It could be very unproductive. It could turn into just a talking shop that... discusses things that are completely unfeasible and therefore turns out to be a waste of time and money for everybody.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
I would recommend, and the Harlequin Support Group would strongly recommend, that this event is deferred until after the survey results are known. I mean, the biggest... outcome of that survey will be either the rack is so severe that the building has to be demolished, or the rack is much more minor and the building can be repaired.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
Until you know even that, a consultation is not a good idea just at this moment.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
Yes, I completely agree. I think you could have two events. An alternative is an offer that the Harlequin Support Group have made to the council leader, which is to do a survey before we hold this event. You're talking a public survey as opposed to a structural survey? Yes, I'm sorry. A survey among the residents and the users of the Harlequin to see what...
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
they need from their arts and cultural provision.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
They are. They're offering their services for free. They would design the survey, conduct the survey, analyse the data and then feed the findings back to the council. And our thinking is that this very useful information could help structure and formulate the design of the public consultation to make it a better and more productive event.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
Some smaller scale events, perhaps. can be held in community halls and churches and school halls, but the larger ones that I'm involved in, like musical theatre, we're really struggling. The Dorking Halls is closed for refurbishment for the second time next year, and it's just had a closure.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
Something else. Epsom Playhouse is going through some refurbishment. as is the capital at Horsham. The Horth in Crawley is fully booked for two years, they tell me. There's absolutely no slots at all. So for events like musical theatre, large-scale productions, orchestral productions, Red Hill Sinfonia and such like, We have very few options. We can go to the Chequermede in East Grinstead.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
It has one or two slots and we should be going down there in the summer.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
We've already experienced that. We lost some volunteers who couldn't travel to East Grinstead last year. We lost some cast members that we'd cast in very, very decent roles that then couldn't do the show when the adults moved out to the theatre in West Horsley. So we do lose people and it's heartbreaking for them.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
For some of them, the theatre and our societies have been the bedrock of their social life and their friendship groups for years. So it This cannot be allowed to go on for too long. It will decimate our groups and it will be very difficult to build back up if this lack of a seriously sized theatre goes on for too long.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
55: Stories from Run Reigate runners as they crossed the finish line, the big Redhill Arts Takeover week… and more
I'm Jill. I'm Alice.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
55: Stories from Run Reigate runners as they crossed the finish line, the big Redhill Arts Takeover week… and more
5K.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
55: Stories from Run Reigate runners as they crossed the finish line, the big Redhill Arts Takeover week… and more
You haven't had a good look at it yet, have you? Yeah, not really. So it's the... It's a primary park just behind us. Yeah, the... Primary school. So where's that going to go, Alice?
The Planet Reigate Podcast
55: Stories from Run Reigate runners as they crossed the finish line, the big Redhill Arts Takeover week… and more
Probably in my bedroom.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
55: Stories from Run Reigate runners as they crossed the finish line, the big Redhill Arts Takeover week… and more
Yeah.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's just... No, this is an internet thing. If we're both freezing, there's something going on. Maybe I should restart my computer. I haven't done...
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I'm just trying to think of like, we don't even have the same internet, you know? Can I, maybe everyone else knows this financial hack, but I was thinking about that podcast question, like what other podcasts would you do? And I was like, oh my gosh, why didn't I think of this? Because one of my like loves in life are like fruit, no frugality things like a money podcast. Like I just, I love that.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I don't know how much that lawyer charged, but I know what I bill, and I'm pretty cheap.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I don't like the extreme extremes. I don't ever not buy coffee, but there are ways to save money. For example, ladies, a manicure costs, what, I don't know, 45 bucks, 50 bucks, depending on what you get. So today I was at- Just have your children do it. Then you'll have to pay money to get that fixed.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
So I was at CVS and I haven't bought nail polish in so long because I don't know who has time to do their nails. Me. I don't have time to do my nails. So I just like bought and I was shocked at how expensive nail polish is these days. When I, this is like decades ago, bought nail polish, it'd be like...
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
five bucks a bottle you know like that makes sense they're all like 10 to 15 for like brands you've never heard of and i was like why are these so expensive i bought them anyway so now you're saying actually it's cheap no no i'm not done yet i'm not done yet and then i went to tj maxx for something oh here's why because So we have to bring a white t-shirt for my child for school for Friday.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
But they told us like today. And I was like, I don't have a white t-shirt. So I had to go find one. So I was at TJ Maxx. And the exact brands, like the nice brands of nail polish were all $3 at the checkout counter. And I was like, what? So don't, because I looked for nail polish at TJ Maxx, but they're like not in the store. They're at the checkout counter, at least where I shop.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
That one guy spent 600 hours. 600 hours. I mean, I get that these records are long, except we're talking about like two sentences in the transcript and one note, right? We're not talking about like the media issues.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
So save yourself 70%. Well, I think that's usually the case. They mark that pretty high. I know, but I went there. Well, that's smart of them, right? Because I went there for a prescription. Absolutely. And so I was already there. So I was like, well, let me pick up some nail polish.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Exactly. That's the whole, it's a convenience store. You're right. But I actually was looking for a nail polish. So anyways, I'm sure everybody already knows that, but like 70% off at TJ Maxx, the exact same brand, same colors and everything. Okay. That's all.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Anyways, I'm sorry. Okay, we can start talking about... This is actually wildly interesting because we've talked about this particular topic a lot, but let me think about your descriptor.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Sorry, I'm about to make up a word, so I'm going to see... Just making sure my made-up word is not, like, actually a curse word. That's always important, right? Okay. I'm laughing at my own pun. Oh, no, it's too early. Okay, I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm sorry. I know I'm a nerd.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Okay. Well, the Supreme Court held that even though this information was voluntarily shared through the operation of a cell phone, cell phones are necessary for daily life now. In, I think this was what, 2018? 2018. Wow. Did you see that? Did you see I just pulled that out of nowhere? I actually had no idea what... I was like, it was pre-COVID, but relatively recent. Thanks.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I feel very happy with myself because today I tried to write the date and I wrote 2021. So, you know, we're a few years off. Okay.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I was trying to look ridiculous. Okay, let me think of a, let me think of a descriptor.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
What was the name of this hearing? This was not a show cause hearing.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Yeah. Okay. I'm like drawing a blank, man. It's too cold. Okay. Okay. I'll think of something. What?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
At least there's no 600 hours. I mean, do your billable math. That's way more. Right. And then there's the all the write off time and the meeting in person and the politicking.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
This is like as quick of a turnaround, which is not like the quickest turnaround, but considering it is a snow day for our kids and we are working, it is a lot happening in the true crime world. I'm surprised the courts didn't close in South Carolina because we are here to talk. But before we do that, let's do our sign-on.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's only like a smidge of a fever. You know, you get power through. But if I say something kind of crazy, it might be because that fever has reached a new height.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I love my Odyssey. Did I did I talk about how I clean? Oh, OK. So I recently changed the configuration, which I love. I moved a child to the third row and now I can't hear him. Because he's so far back. Today, I went to the planetarium that we opened since COVID, and it was great. It was not a great day to go today, so it's probably good you did not go to the grand opening. But it was not great.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Well, it was pouring down raining, and so they had an outdoor part of it, but all of it had to be crammed into the planetarium because it was raining. And so there were like 10 times more people that can fit inside the planetarium, and most of them were small children, so it was not ideal. And we watched one of those like...
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
over the sky displays of the planets and whoever made the movie it was fantastic and beautiful and based on nasa pictures but they drew in these like little martians
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
on like when they were talking about mars and it scared all of the kids in the planetarium so everyone started like screaming when the little martians came on the you know larger than life ceiling okay tv i have i have moved everything around so that's probably best we're ready okay we're ready hold on one second let me let me refresh real quick yep Okay.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I can slowly feel the fever taking over, so I'm beginning to not make sense. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm scrolling past something. Okay. You know what? I personally like it. You got to make the other side sweat a little bit. We know we're in the presence of greatness. Are you kidding?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
No, it really is. It's a thrill to have you on. I mean, our title says it all. We really are prosecutors. I'm a former prosecutor. Brett's still a prosecutor. So it's always fun to talk to a fellow prosecutor.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Okay, sounds good. All right. I was about to sneeze, but Marshall, we'll do a really quick lead in because I know you have a hard stop. So we'll go ahead and get started. We do a very quick sign on. You'll hear us say our names and then I will introduce you. We are very, very informal. People are going to lose their minds that you're on our show. So this is going to be conversational.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
We're going to talk about your awesome new podcast. So let this be free flowing. We edit after the fact. So if anything you say you want to edit out later, don't worry about it. Don't sweat it. We can do it later. Nobody's watching right now. So that's kind of the background, if that's okay with you. Love that.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Wonderful, wonderful. Well, go ahead and sign on. Thank you. I know you have a hard stop, so I wanted to make sure we got it all fit in. Thank you so much, guys.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Okay. Leo, we're going to get through this. I mean, it might be a five-hour episode, but we can do it.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
So I'm wearing like what I call my mean girls, I'm a cool mom jumpsuit.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's like a velour jumpsuit that I've had for like 10 years. And I saw it today and I was like, today is the day I wear this velour jumpsuit because it's freezing outside.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Always for Taylor. I have no idea what the game is.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I really hope they don't send a sniper to come kill us tonight.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Because Taylor showed up. Okay, we got to start recording or we're never going to finish.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I gave you a Mean Girls reference. I just have to say.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I mean, you know, we're talking about a lot of people who are really powerful, but
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
So everyone who's quoting Mean Girls in the chat, I see you. I think I can quote that movie word for word.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Look, all I have to say is, still haven't even touched that award.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
We're just going to win another one so you can have that one. They're like, they're old news. But we will not change. We will not change. Yeah. Okay.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
No, it's fine. They're all long days. It's okay. What was that question someone asked us? Do you have burnout? No, not from the podcast. I don't. Let me be clear about that. Not podcast for now.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Tell me a funny story before we get started so that we can get in the mood. Because it's been a long day. I can tell on your face it's been a long day for you, too. Sorry.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
good thing no one listens to us so it's okay yeah whatever okay we have anyway i'm sorry i got so fired up i ended 35 of y'all got the good stuff exactly the rest of the rest of you just gonna have to listen to bloopers in a year or so this is gonna be another one when i go downstairs my wife is like why did you say all that by the way you should probably stop recording at this point oh yeah i should probably do that sorry hello everybody hello my book today
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I didn't help pull you out of the doldrums. Okay, let me try with one. What was I going to say? Oh, okay. I'll tell a heartwarming one. So I think we have a theme now. You know, the child who loved Squanto, ate with a wooden spoon, that whole thing. Same child, obsessed with lifeguards now. And so I bought him. There's no lifeguard costumes because, A, not Halloween. Not Halloween. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
B, they don't really make lifeguard costumes because apparently it's not a popular costume.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Exactly. Well, I assembled one. But I got him the pouch and the whistle and the first aid kit. And he wore it to swim team practice. And they took a picture with all the lifeguards and they posted it on our pool's Instagram. It's like really cute.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
And it was cute because, you know, you live with them and they're not cute all the time. So I forgot it was cute until I saw it on the Instagram page and I was like, oh, that's cute. Anyways, okay. That got me in the mood. Okay, now I'm feeling good. Now I'm feeling great. Great day.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
We got this. Trial. Maybe that's what it is. We're in the doldrums of trial. It's like we're in trial.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's hard to watch. Like, there's so much to watch.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Yeah. This is like the Game of Thrones family tree thing where it's like everyone matters in some way because someone's trying to go for the throne.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Except the throne is the conspiracy. Okay. I'm ready.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
All right. All right. I'll talk about schedule with you next week.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I forgot that Tuesday- Well, do we want to move to – because we're recording several times next week.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
That's my only thought in case it's – that's just – we could record like five hours in a 12-hour span. It's fine. I know. I know. I'm so tired. I know. I'm fine doing it Tuesday. It just occurred to me when I put it on the calendar. I was like, oh, that's a lot of recording.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I don't know because we are gluttons for punishment. Do you want to do Wednesday work? I could do Monday morning. It's just Sundays I'm so dead.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
That will probably help us go to bed at a reasonable hour.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
And then we'll be done. And then we'll do one more.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I can record this weekend so that – I hate recording on the weekends too because my children might be exhausted. But I could record maybe Saturday. Okay.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Okay. It's Father's Day. Are you okay? Is it Father's Day? Are you okay with that?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Everybody cares about fathers. Well, I hope you're fully celebrated and your kids will go to bed and then we can record.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Then it's Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. That's really intense.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
What's that? Tomorrow's Thursday. Yeah, sure. I have so much work to do. Who cares? I'll just stay up all night and work. Let me see what tomorrow is. One second. Let me see what tomorrow is. I think I can do that. I mean, we can also record next week. I'm just trying to. I'm not traveling next week, but I am traveling.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Oh, it is summer. Oh, my gosh. You're right. It is summer. Wow. Okay. You know what? For a second, I thought it was January because we were just talking about January 2022.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
No, I know because we're pushing all the other things back.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Do we want to... We have a couple one episodes. Do we want to push it back one week or you want to do it because it's timely?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I know. Okay, I'll stay up all night and watch some more of the trial and then we'll record.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I don't care about Father's Day. I'm just kidding. I love Father's Day. I love Father's Day. Let me see how far I can get on work tonight.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
the problem because i have to work after i get off podcasting i have like so much work to do that i just i need to assess what i need to do i'm pretty sure i can record tomorrow let me just see how far i can get on like because i have i'd like a filing today so i just have to clean up i realized yesterday that i have a brief that was due in september so i have to do that at some point
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
in like months or am i am i forgetting what month it is too last september oh wait what yeah and and you know did nobody no i found it is when i was doing like a case review i was like that's a terrible feeling oh i guess that brief was due in september did no one ever say like hey where's your brief nope Maybe you should write that tomorrow and submit it right away.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Do you want to work on that and then we can record later?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I was going to say, unless you want to get fired so that we only have one job to podcast.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It was so much adulting. You know what's sad? The bruises from the car accident are still here. That's all. I just wanted to let you know that.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
No, physical bruises. Physical bruises. I'm so... That's why, honestly, okay, this is why I'm so tired. It's like, I don't know how y'all's relationships work. Like, who... Let's just put it bluntly. I'm the mean one in the relationship. So I'm the one who, like, negotiates our cars and our houses and changes flat tires, right?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
And so, like, even though I'm the exact person you take advantage of when you go to the... Like, you would think, like... Small little Asian lady who knows nothing about cars.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Yeah, I know, right? Well, I cannot send, and he'll hear this and it's fine. I'm saying it to his face. You cannot send Mr. Alice to buy a car by himself because he would literally be the person who'd be like, I just went ahead and got two cars because they said it was buy two, get two free. So, like, I just bought them both. Yeah. Nothing. Right.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
And so it was really funny because I would ask a question and I'm also a foot shorter than Mr. Alice. So like naturally people just don't look at me like quite literally. Yeah. He's actually a foot and an inch taller than me. And so like all of these salesmen, they're men. You know, I did not deal with a saleswoman.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
They like literally, I'll ask a question and they will literally answer to my husband. And then I'll ask a follow-up question and they will answer to my husband. Like for like two straight hours. Like nobody looks me in the face at all. But it's kind of funny because I think they thought they were talking to my husband. Even though he said nothing because he knew nothing.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
He hadn't done any research. He didn't know what the market price was. He didn't know like...
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
any of the metrics right and i would be like well they stopped making this you know in japan last year so where did it move to and doesn't the warranty go till 60 000 and like mr alice's face is like blank he's like what's a powertrain he literally was like what's a powertrain i was like stop talking that's hilarious why don't you tell him what you got Oh, I got it. Oh, I loved it.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I mean, I'm really happy with it. I got a Toyota Highlander. You're in the Toyota family.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I grew up with Toyotas. Love them. They're reliable. You know, that whole thing. But I hate... I hate the process of buying stuff.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's awful. It's just not fun. Oh, sorry, really short thing. So we went to one dealership, and he was fine. I could tell from the beginning he was like, oh, she's stupid. I'm just going to – and then as I asked him questions and he realized I wasn't stupid, he lost interest in talking to me. He didn't want to talk to me because he was like, I'm not going to be able to make money off of you.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
And look, everyone has to make money. I'm not trying to like not have people be able to feed their families, but like also don't lie to me. And so I did the walk away because I really and I was like, look, I was like, look, I am really tired. I literally have bruises on my arm. I need a car. You know, I need a car.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
So, you know, I'm going to buy a car today because I have no other form of transportation. So I don't feel like playing games. I'm going to tell you these three things and why this other car is better. So tell me right now if you can beat that deal. And the answer is no. Fine. I don't want to waste your time. I'm going to leave, though. And he was like, well, it depends.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
And I was like, it doesn't depend. It's a yes or no. And it's fine if it's no. I don't hold it against you. And he's like, we have to sit down and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, that's fine. I'm not going to sit down. I have to go. And so I left. And he texted me later. And he called me the wrong name. He was like, hey, Elise.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
And he has my driver's license, by the way, which is why I don't give him a pass. Elise. He was like, hey, Elise. Did you buy that? Oh, no. He goes... How did you end up buying that other car? So I didn't answer him. So he called me and I answered the phone. He's like, hey, Elise. I was like, hey, this is I was like, hey, I don't know who Elise is, but this is Alice.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
And he was like, oh, hey, Alice. So where are you on buying a car? I was like, well, I haven't signed the paperwork, but it's in front of me. So did you want to call me to tell me something? And he was like, oh. I was like, okay, cool. Have a good day. I was like, you're either going to call me to make me a better deal or not. Like, it's not a game.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
In case there was any concern, the Odyssey is alive and well. I crashed Mr. Alice's car. So all the making fun of Mr. Alice I just did, I'm very sorry, Mr. Alice, because he loved his car. It's not a Odyssey, but thank God the Odyssey's okay. So now we have a Hotlander and a Odyssey, and they're both mom cars.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
So let's give you sort of sound is getting weird. I don't know.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
You know, it already had a few issues with it, so I feel like... Oh, it had a lot of issues, but he was... It was like, you know how some people have security blankets? He had a security car. Mm-hmm.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Like I, I literally, it feels like trial, you know, cause it was like an all day affair. I mean, it took two days really. And like all of this and that. And yeah, it was a lot. It's okay. It's okay. But the guy I bought the car from, he was very excited. I told you guys about the Odyssey, right? I did not go back to that dealership. Did I tell you what they did? I told you. You told me.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Yeah, it was terrible. And they totally just straight up misprinted the price and then refused to change it. I was like, but that's the wrong price. And they're like... What are you going to do? I was like, I'm going to walk away.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I think it'll be fine on your end that we're recording separately, but you are like cutting in and out. Let me see. My Internet's not great. It's like back in the day when your software and my just be Internet because you're you're getting staticky. So I think my little bar is fine because we're recording locally. But I just wanted to let you know.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I was like, I'm going to walk away from what we just negotiated for four hours about. Anyways, thanks for listening to me rant. I feel much better.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Yeah, but I don't think you actually want me to do a cooking podcast.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Do you want to sit across from me and eat the food while I make it? Because I think people would really like that. Because then we could talk about true crime. Yeah, we'll do that. Sure. When we get fired from or quit our jobs, we'll do this.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Because right now, you know what? Because I made something the other day that I literally thought I was like, Mr. and Mrs. Brett would love this. I made scallion pancakes. I was like, I know, I know.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
But you know, that doesn't travel well. Like, you have to eat it straight up.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
You're literally always invited over. You don't need an invitation. I didn't know you were making scallion pancakes. I made it, and I was like, oh, because we had some leftover. And I was like, but this doesn't travel well. You can't send it. And I was like, they should have been here. So maybe we'll make scallion pancakes and talk about Karen Reed.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
But it's okay because they're so different. They're not even the same species of food.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
But yes, if I could only eat one thing for the rest of my life, I know we didn't do a Q&A, it would be Asian noodle soup. Udon. All kinds, right? Like beef noodle soup, pho, ramen, anything. Any noodle soup.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I don't mean to offend your people. Pho is a little too... What is it? Too much flour? I love rice noodles. That's Chinese. Like, rice noodles are my favorite.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Oh... Give me an example. A ton of the noodle soups. Oh, but also, I don't know what they're called in English. Like there's a dry noodle that's like, sauteed is not the right word. It's almost like fried rice, but it's with rice noodles. Like the base is rice noodles. I'll just make it for you and then you'll be like, these are my favorite noodles now.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Most people have never eaten real Chinese food. I hate going to Americanized. And they're owned by Chinese people, but they know what American people want to eat. And it tastes disgusting. Like what is orange chicken?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Are you getting because is there some like electronic attack going on?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
There are different regions. Like there are regions that eat noodles and regions that eat rice. And that actually defines how tall you are. So like people in the north are much taller than the south. Things like that because of like rice versus noodles. So if you haven't visited a region that eats noodles.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's not the rice or the noodles because that's the base. It's what you eat, the protein on top of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, but it's what you pair it with. So anyways, that's all.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Look, she may learn before my kids, which is embarrassing. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's literally everything. I would count Indian food as Asian food.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Really? Yeah. Once you start eating with your hands, it's all good.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Did your HelloFresh come with dumplings? Mine did. Yes, it did. It was great.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I don't disagree with you. I don't. Well, first of all, I think I could not eat it.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
And that's the problem. We didn't have all these chocolate things and sugar canes. We had rice. Fermented rice became our sugar.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Are you AT&T? Uh-oh, they're saying I'm weird, too.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I know you will. I'll deliver it with some scallion pancakes. Scallion pancakes are probably my favorite, though.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
There's nothing. It's fried dough. It's fried dough.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I was just thinking. I was like, I wonder why we're always stressed for time. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I mean, so soup dumplings are like a delicacy if you make them correctly. So if you've had real soup dumplings, it is like... Sholong Bai?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I have no idea what you're saying, white man, but... White man.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
No, because Mr. Alice was like, oh, he pointed to something really excitedly outside of the window to the kids, and he said something, and he doesn't speak Mandarin at all. And he was like, oh, yatsu, yatsu, yatsu. And the kids are staring at him blankly, and I'm looking at him like he's crazy because he's saying repeatedly in Mandarin, Teeth! Teeth! Look at the teeth! Look at the teeth!
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Okay. Well, we're recording locally. So whatever I can, I can live with it.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
And I was like, I literally was like, oh my gosh, he's having a stroke. Like, I don't know what he's talking about. We're driving on the highway and he keeps going, teeth! Kids! Look at the teeth! And I'm like, what? Like, I am looking at him like, do I pull the car over? Is he okay? And he looks at me and he's like, and he's like nodding and smiling. And I was like, what are you saying?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
And he goes, teeth! And I was like, I... Please speak another language. I don't know what you're saying. And he goes, ducks. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. And he was like, that's what I said. Yes. And I was like, no, those are two totally different words. And my kids are in the back laughing their heads off.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It is a difficult language. I get it. But it was just like I thought he was like having a medical emergency because he wouldn't stop screaming teeth out the window.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Soup dumplings are – so my – sorry, what I was saying is my grandmother is Shanghainese. She's since passed away. But like to eat real soup dumplings because you have – like scallion pancakes, you have to eat them actually right when they come out. Yes, you do. And they like burn your tongue and your mouth, but like that's the way you eat them.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It is soup in a dumpling. It is literally a soup dumpling. Oh, okay. Okay. Real quick. So the last time I was Shanghai, I had soup dumplings, but also I went to a... What was it? How do I say this? It was a ramen... It was a very fancy restaurant. It's not the right way to say it, but most really good food, you literally sit on the side of the street next to the gutter.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Okay. Apparently I was freezing too. So maybe our internet here where we live is just being attacked. I'll just start talking. How's everyone doing? Leap day. Did anyone celebrate leap day? That's my question. I was very excited about leap day and I was kind of sad. I didn't have like, well, I'm here with you guys. That's celebratory, but hello. Hello.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
But this was a restaurant that you go to and there's shows. They literally dance. There was the dragon dance and everything. So it's a fancy restaurant because you're indoors. And they come by these guys with these, have you ever seen Chinese yo-yo? It's like these big sticks.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I'll teach you Chinese yo-yo. It's a game. But they have these long noodles that are like, I don't know, hundreds of feet long, and they're literally whipping the noodles in the air, and you tell them what type of noodles you want, and the guy with the samurai sword cuts it up in the top, and it falls onto your bowl perfectly into your soup. Wow. So you end up eating it. It was like...
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It was so delicious. So go to this fancy samurai sword noodle ramen place in Shanghai if you're there because it was majestic.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
We'll drive to Atlanta. We'll go get soup dumplings in Atlanta because there are a couple of really good places in Atlanta. Not Shanghai, but pretty good. All right.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's not like your microphone doesn't work. It's that it changes it.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I mean, you know, it's fine. Okay. Yes, we are ready. Okay. I don't know how far we're going to get either way. Really quick, because these people are so nice for asking. You guys, kids are amazing. He was like down for the count. I'm talking like his face was against the sink as I watched throw up off of his face yesterday. Good move. Bouncing off the walls today. Bouncing off the walls.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
He's fine. So weird. So thank you for asking. He's great.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I have my headphones on, so I couldn't tell where it was coming from. Sorry, that was my phone. I didn't know it was on. I thought, like, ice was falling down from the roof. Sorry, let me start that sentence over. Sorry, guys. Okay.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Hello. I can hear you. Can you hear me? No, I can't.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
You were. You cut out at, well, it doesn't really matter because you're still recording.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I said it doesn't really matter because you kept recording. Oh, it doesn't really matter. Yeah, but you cut out around when you said the Schofields team said that they were in the process of asking for it in Florida was like, meh, and then you cut out.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I'm looking. You see what I'm saying? Well, we are verbose.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
And would it be the first time when we said something was like eight episodes and it's like ten? No.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
The flow of the blood. I did not mean to do that pun.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It might be eight and a half. It could be a very long, I think episode seven might be very long.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I think we can be diligent in six and get through it. Because I think if we're going to have a long episode, episode seven is the one that should be long.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Oh, Alice. She's getting like a lot of negative, negativeness in the chat. And it's, I'm forgetting that they're talking about different Alice. I'm like, guys, why are you so hard on Alice?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Hey, don't worry, guys. I haven't forgotten about the Brittany story, but let me stop for this recording so we can do ads.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
man can't really whistle already i can feel like i'm coming back alive now that school's starting it's so much less taxing oh no anyone else like not even all my kids have started school but like one out of three helps yeah let's see did y'all make it to the pool this afternoon no we didn't first day of school is a lot to to balance
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Got it. Because our first day is a real first day, but it's like a half day. But, like, parents leave and everything. Then never mind. That's not first day. I'm a little sleepy, though. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It must be something with the internet here because we have different internets. I don't have spectrum. So I think internet in general must be going weird. You know what? I did have internet problems today when I was working too. So. but you can't hear me right now. Anyways. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I'm going to start. I'm going to start. I got this.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
There are some good cases. So the city confidential ones, like they're all a city, you know, like you get to know a city. And yesterday I like recorded like four and I had lived in all four cities. I was like, this is a little bit creepy.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I do really, I mean, they're like definitely haters, which is fine. Like you can hate all you want. But a lot of people are like, this is not true to the original. The original was a narrator who was a man. And I'm like, yeah, definitely not that. I don't know what to tell you. But I think when they chose me, they knew I wasn't a man. Yeah. So I don't know what to tell you.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Perhaps it was an artistic decision they made and it wasn't an accident.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
We need new blood. They literally can't do it anymore. I'm not taking their jobs.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I'm sorry, Bill. Bill is definitely alive, but he is 83 years old.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
He shouldn't have to be a narrator anymore. He's 83 years old. Give his voice a rest.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I mean, I think I'm relatively free until we have to travel.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Okay, so you want to do... Monday or Tuesday. You want to do Monday and Tuesday? Or I could do Sunday if you want to buy yourself a little time for travel.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
My brother was born two days shy of leap day. He was born on the 27th. So happy birthday to him, but it would have been really cool if you were a leap day, baby. Got it. I can't believe it's March. Where has 2024 gone? I don't know that Brett can hear us at all, but truly where has 2024 gone? Ah,
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
And the doctor was like, yeah, you just have like a low-grade fever. You'll probably have them for two weeks. And I was like, is that normal? And she was like, the flu is really bad. I was like, oh, okay. She's like, I don't know what to tell you. I could put you on antibiotics, but I wouldn't if I were you. I could give you steroids. I wouldn't if I were you. Here's some Afrin.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
She's like, yesterday at the Super Bowl, I did see all of the ads for Wicked, so... Color me wrong. There's that. But it's not the original cast. Well, it's almost never the original cast.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
That's not true. They had the opportunity. It'd be one thing if they didn't know it was going to be so famous. They knew when it came out, and everyone loved the original cast. You know what I mean? You could always do a remake later.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
You could never do the original task again. You know?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
This is true. But Mahomes is just really good at what he does.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
He never gets frazzled. And it's very nice to watch.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Well, I will try. Part of it is I still have so much work to do because I was stuck at the doctor's office for hours today. Not their fault. I guess everybody's sick, so, you know, there's that.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I know. I'm really glad you're not sick. One of us has to carry the other. I know. I've been drinking. Thank you, guys. Trust me. I've never been sick this long before. I guess I've never had the flu. I don't know. But I do think it's so funny that when I went to the doctor today, because I was like, I've never been to the doctor. I don't have a general practitioner. I called one today, Brett.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I think it was the one that you go to. I know that there's like a massive shortage in like internal medicine people. I called your doctor and I was like, hey, just want to set up a general, you know, like I don't have a doctor. I need to find a doctor. And the lady literally laughed at me and she was like, yeah, in our practice, only one doctor is taking new patients and it's not till July. Bye.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
But I was just shocked. I was like, what if I wanted to make an appointment for July? Because clearly it's not going to get any shorter.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Anyways, so I had to go to a clinic and wait hours. But it's okay. She was like, yeah, you're really sick. But, you know, it is what it is. And I was like, oh, okay. So I'm good? No pneumonia? And she was like, not yet. But maybe tomorrow. And I was like, what?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Oh, great. I'm just talking to myself, trying to figure out your sound issues. It's the Marco Polo situation here. Do you guys have any questions? AMA, ask me anything. Oh, wait. Birdie asked, how do you feel about the party coming up? Good. Sad because like all of a sudden she doesn't seem like a baby. She seems like a toddler already. She's not walking, but she seems big.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I know. And like, I don't know. It just really hit me because my oldest daughter, He's six. But then it like hit me that one third of the time where he's going to be under my roof has already passed. And that's crazy. You know, like when someone said that, I was like, don't don't do that to me. He's still a baby. Does she have any words? Yes. She still says cheese a lot.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
She still refuses to say mama. So, you know, this is going to be our relationship. But she says like the cutest. Bye bye. With the buh first. It's great. Buh-bye. And it's really offensive because if someone walks in a room, she'll turn to whoever she was playing with before and just, like, wave and say, buh-bye. Like, time for you to leave. Wow, you are really Blair Witch Projecting over there.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Bye-bye. And then hi-ya. She also says hi-ya. I remember when my son, I think I said this before, but my son went to school and had this like really sweet teacher from Mississippi with like a thick Mississippi accent. And all of a sudden, like in 24 hours, he spoke with a Mississippi accent. And I was like, you live with me your whole life.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
And then all it takes is 24 hours with this wonderful teacher and you completely change the way you speak. He'd be like, can we go there? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
nothing wrong with that there's nothing wrong with it but like all it took was 24 hours to completely erase everything that mom taught him i don't know maybe these last few episodes sound terrible who knows whatever sorry yeah i don't know i can't i can't decide whether it sounds okay or not do you want to stop and listen to the recording back
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Well, I'll be listening through the same headphones, so presumably... Can you unplug the headphones and just listen to it from your computer to see how it sounds?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
But you can sometimes tell if it's totally tinny or empty, you know?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Speaking of words, this goes back to our conversation about not cursing in front of my kids. So they don't know a lot of words to put down people. And so it's been really fun to watch them think of words that they think are really, really bad. And so my oldest was trying to come up with a word to describe the messed up looking hyena in Lion King. You know, the one that has crazy eyes and whatever.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
And he was like... It's Ed. It's Ed. And I was like, oh, which one's Ed? I don't know. I didn't know they had names. And he was like, the, the. And he didn't have like a negative word, which I was like, I was kind of proud to describe. He was like, he's the super bizarre looking one. And I was like, oh, it's like a really good description and also not too mean.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Yeah. Don't worry. He'll learn real quick when he goes to school school. But for now, for now, that's his worst word to describe someone. He's so bizarre.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's a little hard because you saw that we have a conversation on Wednesday.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
yeah okay let's do that where are we at let me just pull that up real quick we are about to go into prosecutor's theories so we haven't there will be i think an entire episode on theories probably not our theories no no no like just theories in general are you sure no no we haven't gotten to theories we have gotten we haven't got angles exactly
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It irritates me. Well, I mean, we were fired up before we even went live.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Because we're traveling twice in March. So we're a little bit busier in March.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
That's what I'm saying is like we have a lot of travel, so we might have to get ahead a little bit.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
We could always bring our... Well, no, not really. I don't want to bring all the microphones to record.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It's just to do your job. It costs people time and money. You know? I just... I don't like... I'm an immigrant, you know? I like being efficient. I don't like waste.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Yeah. When are we traveling again? Are we traveling again? Yes, we are. But that's only one day, so we're okay.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
We should get like, they're not going to understand it because they're all too young, but we should like walk in with a boombox blasting it. And they'll be like, we don't understand this. They'll be like, look, every rapper in the 90s did this.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Look, I literally call them boomboxes because I grew up dancing and we called it a boombox because you had to move your boombox around to different dance studios like we had rehearsal. Boombox. I don't know what else it's called. It's not stereo. It's called a boombox.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I got my first boom box when I turned eight. I remember, like, clearly, it was like a Sony. I don't know why this is not letting me save. Are you having problems with our drive?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
No, no, no. I think... We're being hacked internet-wise, I think, because mine says full bar.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I have so many electronic, but none of them are printed out.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
We didn't talk about how, like, he made this decision because he hired a law firm who, like, he spent 600 hours on the case to basically write. Is that seriously? Yeah. 600 hours?
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
I do too, because we have different carriers. And my home internet was weird today too during work.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
It actually does. And they're like, it's like a kiosk where you can surf online thebestbuy.com. And I'm like, wow, this is weird.
The Prosecutors
283. Christmas Bloopers (AGAIN!)
Okay. I think mine is like it's uploading real slow, so I don't know if it's going to. I'll check in on it later. All right. I'm going to go do a little bit of work.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
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The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
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The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
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The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
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The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
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The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
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The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
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The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
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The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
All right. Like all good cases, especially this one, the timeline is incredibly important. And it's incredibly important because, man, I am not built for the time of expeditions and charters because these are rough lives. Not only the crossing of the ocean, I think I would just probably... lose my lunch the entire way. But it's a tough life once you get here, right? You have to build a life.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
You have to survive. They're not only the elements that you have to survive. It's a new world, new diseases, having to learn how to hunt, eat, gather berries, all the things, not to mention potential attacks by people who are already here. And also, they're, like, attacking the Spanish. So if I were the Spanish, you know, I'm looking for some revenge on land.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
So you're not just looking out for, say, tribes who are native to the land. You're also looking for other countries' colonies who may not want you to impinge on their land because, again, these charters are really just, as Mrs. Brett so well put it, it's like naming the stars after someone. Like, I definitely had, like, a high school boy say that to me when I was in high school.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Like, see that star? That one's named Alice. Mm. Mm. Kids, don't use that. In other words, a little bit meaningless in terms of granting those charters. So let's go to April 17th, 1584. The first English voyage to Roanoke Island. This is the Amadas Barlow Expedition. And it began in April of 1584. The expedition was led by Captain Philip Amadas and Master Arthur Barlow.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
The two ships were piloted by Portuguese navigator Simon Fernandes. The ship sailed through the Canary Islands and the Caribbean, finally reaching the American coast on July 4th, 1584.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Auspicious day. I didn't know that as well. Hundreds of years later. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Hey, Brett. It's so good to be here because every year I look forward to recording this episode that our Lititz kids have helped us research. And this year is no exception. They are some of the brightest kids I've ever met.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
I guess you can't live on wine alone.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Like it probably smelled horrible compared to the woods. They probably smelled it a hundred miles out. They didn't have latrines. Like there was just like disease and waste in the streets. And that's what I would much prefer. I probably the natural woods they were coming from, but you're right.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
so this brings us to mid-september fifteen eighty four the expedition arrives back to england and now when they're back home barlow described virginia as this land of plenty and there were peaceful natives he said they showed off the skins and the pearls that he had acquired with their trade with the friendly tribes It seemed this was really a good spot that England should go back to.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
They should investigate some more. It's going to be a good candidate for them to establish their first permanent colony. I mean, think about it. They arrive. It's peaceful. It's beautiful. It's idyllic. And even better, your neighbors who are here are helpful. They're trading with you. They're friends. They're eating with you. They're dining together.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
This truly seems like the perfect place to come back to. So on April 9th, 1585, now Raleigh appointed his cousin, Sir Richard Grenville, to establish a settlement in North America. This is like the chain of custody. Like, I have a right.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
But also you can't leave my side. Right.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Feels a little catch 22 over here, but you're right. It's time limited. And so this is like supermarket sweeps, but with land and colonies, like you got to get everything you can, but it's time limited. Also, you can't go in the store. So there's a fleet of five ships and they're carrying roughly 600 men, and led by Grenville, who left England on April 9th, 1585.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
And of course, the goal was establishing an English settlement on Roanoke Island. So though the queen didn't provide any financial backing for the expedition, she did provide the 160-ton ship Tiger, which was the largest ship in the fleet. And these things are... Not inexpensive. But remember, these ships that are being sent out to the New World is also their armada, right?
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Because they were royalty coming over.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Like this is also their fighting ships. The ships are like multi-purpose, but she takes like the largest ship they have and says, you know, go forth and prosper. Now, some of the notable men joining the expedition were Simon Fernandes, who was also on the first expedition, if you remember. Ralph Lane, who was a fortifications expert.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
John White, he was an artist to record the landscape and flora and fauna. Thomas Harriot, who was a scientist to collect samples, and Joachim Gans, a metallurgist to assess the commercial potential of the land, and two Native Americans who had come back to England, the Montejo and Wanchese.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
They were all royalty, you know, like the queen would like, you know, divvy out the rights to the different parts. So I get it. I got you with its kids. I got you.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Also, they all got on this boat and they all went back to, again, be prosperous, set up this colony on Roanoke Island.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Not women.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Well, they have good landscape and fauna and flora.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
You see, I knew I liked these kids.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
I really do wonder if they had to draw straws.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
The reason I say that is just kind of thinking about human psychology. If there are 600 people, I feel like if a lot of them wanted to stay, you would see the bulk of them stay and few go back, right? You don't necessarily need all of them to go back except for the limited food stores. But the fact that only 100 stayed, I feel like they got the short end of the stick in this situation.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
So in August of 1585, Grenville returned to England with the bulk of the men who had gone with him. He left Lane with one ship so that they could explore the area. And he also promised to return in April of 1586 with more men and more supplies. So essentially, what, nine months later, he's like, I will be back. Meanwhile, Lane was busy building the colony Raleigh had envisioned.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
He started, like Brett said, he's aggressive. You have to be aggressive. You're coming onto, you know, this new land with nothing. There's no roads. There's no buildings. There's no really rule there. And so he starts to supervise the construction of a fort, of course. to protect this colony of 100 men. And you can imagine why, right? That's the most important.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Let's make sure we have protection for our colony. So they finish that within the first month. And then the next thing they do is they build a science center on the island's north end so that they can study the resources and the commercial potential. Because remember, the whole point of this colony is to claim land, to be able to have resources to send back to Mother England.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
now other improvements for this colony included a separate village on the north end of roanoke island that contained a one and a half and two story residences with thatched roofs and several other structures houses to live in sleep in that sort of thing Now, the group also explored the nearby Chesapeake Bay after the Native Americans around them told them about gold and copper in the area.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Now, unfortunately, this exploration trip would be the beginning of hostile relationships between the colonists and the local natives. You can imagine previously it may have been... A honeymoon period. They're just here to see what things are happening. They're there for several weeks, not long. They're guests, but they're going home.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
All of a sudden, now they're coming here to take your resources, to take the area that had just been yours. They're no longer guests. Now they're permanent residents. And anyone who's lived with anyone else, college roommates, anything like that, know that there can be friction and tension when you live in close proximity with someone else.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
I think this is the fourth year because this is the fifth year of the podcast. And they're an amazing teacher.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
So, again, we don't have cell phones here, right? And so Grenville didn't know that his hundred men that he left behind had already left. So he returns to the colony with the provisions as promised. Now, a little late. He said he'd be back April, but it takes a long time to go around the world. And so he comes back several months later in August.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
He shows up with the provisions, looks around, and he's like... Gosh, okay, the colony has been abandoned. So what he does is he leaves 15 men and two years worth of supplies in order to protect Raleigh's claim to Roanoke Island. Because remember what we talked about that charter where you're just like naming stars? It only belongs to England and Raleigh so long as it's still theirs.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
But if no one is still at the colony, anyone can come by and now claim it for Spain, claim it for another country. And so he needs to protect it because all those men, they just left.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
now meanwhile the colonists who had returned to england there showing off all the new novelties that they discovered like potatoes tobacco and maize now despite the failure of this first settlement these new-found goods were enough to entice a new group
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
to attempt to colonize the island so the following year in fifteen eighty seven there's a second expedition that goes to roanoke island now this expedition was again organized by sir walter raleigh again he can't go himself but he organizes it And so this next one that he sends over, John White, he's going to be the colony's governor, and he's going to have domain over 117 settlers.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
This time, we learn from our mistake. It's not just going to be all men. They were like, you know what? If you leave all these men by themselves, they're going to go kill some chiefs, and then they're just going to hightail it out of there without doing what they were supposed to do, which is to figure out what the resources were, set up a colony, protect it, stay there.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
So this time they send families and there were 89 men, 17 women and 11 children. And each family who was going to go, they got something for it because this is dangerous. This is important work. If you went, your family would receive at least 500 acres of land given to them by none other than the queen.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
They were all in the outtakes. You could definitely stop ahead of time.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
It's Lidditz. There's nothing funny about it whatsoever. Lidditz.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
But much of their hope was dashed only days after their arrival. One of the colonists, George Howe, was found dead on the beach after being murdered by Native Americans. Now, this was a clear sign that the local tribes had not forgotten about the murder of their former chief and trade with them was out of the question. In other words, even though these are different people, it doesn't matter.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Talk about a Hallmark movie setting.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
It's all England, right? And this is meant to send a message and a vicious message at that. So in August of 1587, the settlers urged White to return to England to get more supplies. Now, John White reluctantly agreed, but he was afraid to leave his daughter, Elizabeth, and his new granddaughter, Virginia Dare, who he said was the first English colonist to be born in the Americas.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
But the colonists prevailed upon White. And so he goes back to England and he arrives on October 1587. Now, White tries to return to the colony with two supply ships about six months later in April of 1588. So White did get these two supply ships. He's ready to go. But these two ships became involved with a Spanish vessel and they had to go back to England. Remember what we talked about earlier?
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
We felt so bad. I'm so sorry that it's elementary that we couldn't come in person because last year we made the trip and it was one of the best trips ever. We were driving around town being like, does everyone know about this place? Because this is a Hallmark movie in the making.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
These ships are like not single use. You only have so many ships. They're used for sending supplies to the New World. They're sent for discovery of New World. They're also used to fight, right? And the Spanish Armada is huge, obviously. And the Spanish Armada attacks England.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
And so Roanoke and their supplies that they need, that gets pushed down on the priority list very quickly because the motherland is being attacked. They need all of their ships because the Spanish Armada is here attacking them. So the ships get called back. They can't be sending supplies. They need to stay here and defend. England.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
They have ice sculpture like contests.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
I mean, and they were the friendliest people ever. Great coffee, great snacks. Everything about them is great. Okay. The reason we're going on and on about this is because we have said this to you and we really do mean it. When you guys reach out to us to talk to your classes or whatnot, we pretty much, if we can say yes, we try to say yes.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Guys, Father's Day gifting is always the same story for me. Socks, grill tools, repeat. But this year, I wanted to do better, and I found Quince, and they made buying a thoughtful gift easy. Quince has all the pieces dads actually want to wear, like organic cotton silk polos, European linen beach shorts, and comfortable pants that work for everything from weekend hangouts to nice dinners.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
The best part? Everything with quince is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. They do this by working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen. Quince gives you the luxury pieces without the crazy markups. I know I've bought lots of pieces, not only for myself, but for my husband, and he wears all of it.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
He cannot believe that he gets such luxurious goods for a fraction of the price.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
And we are so excited to have talked to Lititz Elementary for four years in a row. And here's why I'm excited, Brett. I know we're always talking about doom and gloom, murder, mayhem, all that sort of thing. And it can get one to be pretty pessimistic about the future of our country or about our society. Nay.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Guys, a couple of years ago, I really was tired of paying so much for my cell phone bill. I looked at it and I thought there must be a different way. And that's when I found Mint Mobile and I've been using them ever since. It's true. I got to keep my phone. I got to keep my phone number that I've had since I was in high school, in fact.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
And I loved it because I was paying so much less for my cell phone bill, but I didn't notice any difference in my coverage being different. This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get your summer savings and shop premium wireless plans at mintmobile.com slash prosecutors. That's mintmobile.com slash prosecutors.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Upfront payment of $45 for three-month, five-gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. You know, we spend so much time caring for the skin on our face, but what about our neck?
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
And with summer in full swing, your neck and chest are more exposed than ever. I know I'm at the pool all day long and the sun is harsh on skin. Whether you're rocking sundresses, swimsuits, or strappy tops, your neck is out there for the world to see and it's one of the first places to show signs of aging.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
That's why Go Pure Beauty created their revolutionary Tighten and Lift Neck Cream, perfect for your summer skincare routine. It's powered by clinically proven active ingredients. This advanced formula is designed to visibly firm, smooth, and rejuvenate the delicate skin on your neck and chest in as little as four to eight weeks. And here's the thing.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
When we speak to Lititz Elementary, honestly, the excitement they have in terms of researching, following the evidence, using rational thinking, far exceeds, honestly, a lot of the people I interact with on a daily basis who are...
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
The skin on your neck is thinner, more delicate, and less oily than the skin on your face, which means it needs some extra love, especially in the sun and heat. GoPure's Firming Complex targets the unique concerns of the neck while nourishing and strengthening your skin for a more lifted, youthful look so you can feel confident showing a little more skin this summer.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
I know once I started using it, I was so surprised how hydrated my skin felt. I just kept touching my neck. And I love it because typically I know what I want to put on my face, but I always forget that my neck also needs some TLC. And I'm so glad that I found Go Pure.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
This really is wild, right? Like there's no way to tell them they're going to be two, three years delayed. And it kind of feels like if you were sent out to space, that's what the new world was like. There was truly nothing there. There were no connections to the world you knew. There was no way to get back home unless Sir Francis Drake happens to pop into your colony.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
factors older than they are so i feel like our future is in good hands that's why i'm so pumped about this episode and generally our relationship with this awesome school
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
That doesn't happen every day. But kind of like my fear of going in space, like what if I just start floating away and no one can find me?
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
in essence that's kind of like what's happening here he doesn't know what happens to his family but flip side the colonists expected that white would be back and they waited year after year after year and this will go into theories later about what happened but like can you imagine at what point do you stop waiting you don't know if john white is alive you don't know if england is still standing you have no idea what's going on and at some point it just becomes a fight for survival
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Anya Englishman Shue. john white governor v i a and the other side of the stone said that only seven of the roanoke colonists were left alive and that the native americans murdered the rest and it was signed e w d which we think is eleanor white So in essence, you have the stone that is almost like it's a time capsule, right?
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
They don't have, well, I mean, paper is not going to, you know, make it back to England. It could get eaten. It could get thrown away. It could disintegrate. So they have this stone. It's like a memory of, you know, Virginia, if this is in fact Eleanor Dare, of when they died and trying to tell what happened.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
And the other thing is, we all know... Well, maybe we don't all know, but we don't say our kids' names on the show, mostly because... I don't know. It's funnier to give them nicknames. So my second son has a deep love of the Native Americans. It's years long at this point. And he wants to be Squanto. Dresses up as Squanto all the time. This is not a Thanksgiving thing. This is a year-round thing.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Now, the tourist found the stone, brought the stone to Emory University, where it was examined for authenticity. The professor who examined it couldn't verify its authenticity, but did assert that it was, quote, consistent with the phrasing of the time and the colonists would have had tools to carve such a message.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
So in other words, it's possible everything fits what it could be of this time period, but he just couldn't actually say whether this was real. Now in 1940, word of this stone has traveled. People have wanted to know for hundreds of years what happened to this Roanoke colony. In 1937, this phone pops up. What do you think happens next? All of a sudden, people are finding stones everywhere.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
47 more stones are found by 1940, and they are dated until 1599. A stone is dated from 1592, claiming that the survivors of Roanoke are safe, living with a tribe in the Nacoochee Valley in Georgia. And then there's another stone. It's dated 1598. And it claims that Eleanor Dare has married the local chief and is part of the tribe here.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Yet another stone claims that this time Eleanor Dare, after she married the local chief, she's given birth to the chief's daughter. But now the tribe is angry about it. And Eleanor requested that her father bring this baby girl back to England with him. Yet another stone dated 1599 stated that Eleanor Dare had died and that she had a daughter named Agnes who survived her.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Well, now you're thinking, wow, after this first discovery, now we're finding the whole encyclopedia of what happened. Thankfully, we were able to find all these stones, right? These stones are collectively called the Dare stones. But if red flags are waving in your mind, good job. Because this sounds a little suspect. None of these 47 stones were found until that first stone was found in 1937.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
And they seem to tell a very detailed anthology of what happened to the dares specifically. Well, in 2015, archaeologists looked at these stones again for a History Channel documentary. And these archaeologists concluded that while the first stone was legitimate... The rest were hoaxes. People basically saw it, wanted to be part of history, fame, money, who knows?
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
They find these fake stones that they had carved themselves.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
He runs around. He eats with a wooden spoon, for example. And the fact that he was so excited about this mystery, I told him about it. I told him about the mystery around it. And maybe Native Americans were part of it. Maybe they weren't. My kids are excited about this story too. So if you're out there listening, you like mysteries, this is going to be a great history lesson as well.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
It's a fun read. I'll say that.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
And by the way, one of our Libbets Elementary researchers found that article. So great job researching as well. We're not making fun of the Daily Mail. The fact that they were looking at articles now was great research. Again, like I said, I don't say this lightly. The research they did was excellent.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Their presentation, their enthusiasm for history and also for this mystery is incredibly heartening. So you guys should look into the Roanoke mystery like them because guess what? There's time because we have to end today's recording and come back to finish it because there's just so much to this mystery.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Thank you, Lidditz, for making sure we weren't getting those one-star reviews for lack of research.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
You know what we should have asked them? We're going to have to do this for next year. Please help us remember, to their wonderful teacher, Alex, we should ask them, in addition to giving us descriptors, to have questions for us to answer in their episode.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Because I was just thinking, what questions can we answer that they might find interesting as well?
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm in no rush.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Fiddled with my microphone for 20 minutes while everybody waited.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Wow. You guys know that we truly love your five-star reviews, but we really love the one-star reviews. Like, we really love it. Some may call that trolling. Some may just say that we have a great sense of humor, shall we say, because... What is it? I am rubber, you are glue. That's how I feel about one-star reviews, right? And so if you go look at our one-star reviews, don't.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Just leave some five stars so we push them out of the way. People have very strong feelings about our song. This is why, by the way, when the Lititz Elementary students played their version of our song last year, it quite literally brought tears to my eyes because they understood us on such a deep level. I felt seen. So People hate the song. They think it's too loud. They think it's too rock.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
They think it's too long. We hear this all the time. Great song, but way too long. So what do you do when a mouse asks for a cookie? You give them a whole jar full of cookies and then some more and then a truckload and the cookies keep coming. So the song just keeps on coming because really, I feel like those one-star reviews saying the song was too long, they were simply asking for more song.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
and life lesson lit it's kids don't give in to the naysayers because you know what they may be loud but they're usually not in the majority and also if you know something to be true and beautiful like the song is i love it and you know what if we had backed away from it we may never have had the awesome versions that you guys played for us which really are some of my favorite songs now i play it for my kids all the time it brings a huge smile to my face and the best part
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
It brings smiles to lots of people's faces now. So don't give in to the naysayers.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
I mean, is it like really sad?
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Go ahead. Now, now everybody wants to know what it is. You might as well do it. And if it's not kid appropriate, we'll just cut it out for now.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
oh that is a little bit sad well okay it's not sad i'll say this why have i told you this and so my oldest is seven years old and every night when i say good night bud i love you he responds i hope i die before you every night right every night last words he says to me as i close the door and i'm always like huh it's so sweet but so morbid yeah very morbid
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
So actually we spend, if you have young children, I think you spend a lot of time talking about death actually, because kids are fascinated by it. We see roadkill and they're like, how do you die? What happens when you die? All these things. So actually, I don't think it's that morbid of a question because we do talk and think about death a lot. At least in this household.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
I know you said no hymns, but I think I'd want kind of a full circle because I thought a lot about the song selection at my wedding. Because it wasn't just like, you know, for what is called a flash mob, which is also awesome. But it was to like, think about life, right? Like funerals and weddings have that in common. Of course, one is typically joyful and one is typically sad.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
you know, sad, but they're the arcs of life. And so I put a lot of thought into the songs that we had at our wedding and they were sung by very close friends of mine. And so it's the song, but also I think it's who would sing it that, that matters very much to me.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
It's not your wedding.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Obvious. Actually, I would have it played.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
I was going to say, I want the 40 minute version. Yeah. And maybe the kid version. Maybe the kid's version.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
So one of my, I mean, I'm sorry, I'm going to go back to him. But like one of my favorite hymns of all time is amazing grace. So that was at our wedding. And the history of writing it are also incredible. So I would totally have amazing grace yet again. And it could be arranged awesomely. I don't care. I don't care how it's saying.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Yeah, I mean...
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
i mean i don't want to make people sad but like if someone's like huh i'm a little sad alice is gone i just want a little bit more upbeat you know maybe shelter from the storm instead of knocking on heaven's door i don't know but i just i just yeah like i don't know bad out of hell how about that i think that is a great question and i definitely at least with this i definitely want music and i want it probably arranged by my friends
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
And I would love I mean, I love acapella. I love the piano. I love stringed instruments. All of those things are beautiful because I truly think that music can, you know, touch and reach places that like the spoken word can't.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
You're like my son. Okay, there. I care more about my friends. I hope you guys get to mourn me. That means you live a long life.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Not tonight.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
We need to at least finish West Memphis 3. Yes.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
And I'm Alice.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Their nicknames? What do you mean?
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
We have not recorded the episode.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
You mean before we recorded? What are you talking about? This is the first time we're recording.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
I don't think you did because you called me the names when we were talking to them. So you said the words.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
So I don't think you actually did.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Also, can you believe I felt like CrimeCon was so far away, but all of a sudden I'm like, CrimeCon's right on the corner.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Because I don't have my act together yet. You know, like I don't have tickets booked or anything. So from 1578 to 1583, Gilbert organized three expeditions to the New World where he explored New England, the Mid-Atlantic, Newfoundland, and Cape Breton. Is it Cape Breton?
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
Sorry, I had to.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
I never thought about it. It is branding. It was totally branding. It was completely co-opting something that everyone wanted.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
I mean, literally pirates, right? Like when I found this, I was like, man, you could just do this. Like we can't get resources. We're just going to steal all your stuff as it's coming through. Isn't that just going to set off wars?
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
So as a result, Queen Elizabeth gave a grant to Sir Humphrey Gilbert in 1578 to make an expedition to North America and claim land for England. By the way, like, this is why the Duchess, the descriptor, you can just give grants to whoever. Like, how do you get on her good list? Do you just, like, wait outside her castle all day? You sleep with her. You know, this is why I asked. What?
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
That is fair. Oh, man. History. This is the unabridged version and also a rated R version.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
But you know, okay, so Queen Elizabeth gives this grant to Sir Humphrey Gilbert. He's like, go get some land for England. So from 1578 to 1583, Gilbert organized three expeditions to the New World where he explored New England, the Mid-Atlantic, Newfoundland, and Cape Breton Island. But before his work was ever complete, Gilbert was unexpectedly killed during a storm in 1583.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
I mean, this really was incredibly dangerous work to be going on these expeditions. Now, Gilbert wasn't the only member of his family passionate about colonizing the Americas. And as many things like think about land and hereditary, you know, land grants and whatnot, they wanted to keep it in the family.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
And I'm Alice.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
And so his cousin, Sir Walter Raleigh, and his brother, Adrian Gilbert, were determined to finish what Gilbert had started.
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
so queen elizabeth divided gilbert's original charter between the two men adrian gilbert was given a patent for newfoundland and other northern points he gets shall we say santa's land and raleigh he's an english courtier soldier mariner explorer and historian and he was given the patent to the lands to the south
The Prosecutors
310. The Lost Colony of Roanoke Part 1 of 2 -- How to Disappear Completely
And I guess with what you're saying with these grants, it doesn't really matter because she's kind of just drawing lines into the air like, go get them, guys. But it stays within the family. And the whole point is there are more people going out to get land, claim land for England.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
guys finally vacation season is nearly upon us this year i'm treating myself to the luxe upgrades i deserve with quince's high quality travel essentials at fair prices i know you guys have heard me rave about all of my amazing high quality pieces that i wear for work and for fun from quince but did you know they also have first class quality suitcases at an economy price tag.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
It's going to be perfect for all the trips I plan to take this spring and summer with my kids to the beach, to the lake. It is going to make travel feel so luxe. I also am just loving their European linen styles from $30. And of course, their washable silk tops, which I can pack with me when I go to court and still look great going out to dinner in them.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And of course, you know I love my comfy lounge sets. The best part, all Quince items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I love that.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And you bet I'm packing all these awesome items into my new expandable suitcase and It is fantastic. They even have a kid's version that I got my kids to match me when we have our carry-on bags that match, are beautiful, and are durable. For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from Quince.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Go to quince.com slash prosecutors for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash prosecutors to get free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash prosecutors. So as we do in kind of the more complex cases, we go through the players in the case before we go to the timeline.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So I think that's worth diving into here because the many characters that fill up this tragic story, each of them really could have a book written on them. But we will introduce you to them here. You will learn much more about them as we go through this case. And so we will start with the name that has become synonymous really with the West Memphis Three, and that is Damien Echols.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
He, at this time, was a teenager with an affinity for black clothes, heavy metal music, and alternative religions. And it's worth noting that West Memphis was a... typical kind of Bible Belt town. And so a lot of people viewed these things as outside of the mainstream or outside of the ordinary.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Damien was on the radar of the police immediately after the bodies of the three young boys were discovered. Damien has struggled with violent tendencies and mental illness, having been in and out of Arkansas health facility in the years leading up to the crime. Damien did his co-defendants no favors, particularly Jason Baldwin. Jason Baldwin is one of Damien Echols' best friends.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Other than being good friends with Damien, Jason was really a typical lower middle class kid from a broken family. He had a minor criminal record and Jason was a relatively poor student, though he was still in school at the time of the murders. But he did excel at art and. If the killings had not occurred, that's almost certainly where his life would have gone in the direction of art.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
But Jason was Damien's best friend, and the police assumption, not without reason, was that whatever Damien was involved in, Jason would be involved too.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Hey, Brett. It's good to join you for what will be an epic series, and I don't mean that in epic like rock on, but literally epic, because this might go on for decades. We may never finish this epic. Okay.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I'm not kidding when I say I avoided Paradise Lost because my heart couldn't handle it until research for this case. And while I was watching it, Brett got, I don't know, no fewer than 300 texts while I watched it as in like, what is happening? Is this for real? Are they acting? Just wait.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I mean, they really don't make documentaries like that anymore. I'll say that because everyone it was so today, I think people knew they were being filmed at the time. It was leading up to the trial. Obviously, even at the time before the trial had happened, this was a case that gripped the nation, gripped the world. But they were all very like self-aware they were being filmed.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
and seemingly acting for the camera, but not acting for the camera. And I'm not sure I've seen many documentaries like this in terms of the characters within them being so open. I think that's exactly how they were even when the cameras were off.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I remember I think, Brett, you told me close your eyes in the first scene. That didn't help because it does start with the horrific crime scene photos, but they are littered throughout the entire documentary episodes.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So if you don't want to see it and there is no shame in not wanting to see it because it is unfortunately something that you will never be able to unsee, partly why I think I've been dreaming about this case for weeks at this point. I have a lot of thoughts about using those types of photos for the world to see, as we've talked about in the Delphi case. But just be warned.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And honestly, it's a hard documentary to listen to because a lot of the narrative is in writing. So you do actually have to read the screen. Just be warned. It is worth watching, but you cannot unsee many things.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Yeah, yeah. Alice is right.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And we know what's going to happen to these three boys. They're eight-year-old boys. You see little strands of just their absolute childhood-ness, such as the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle, but they are also wanting to be bigger than they are. And this is absolutely tragic. So I know we say this about all victims, but here and I do think there's a lot of talk, of course, about the victims.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
But this hits very close to home. I have a seven year old. I know a lot of you have children these ages. This is very, very it is still painful for victims.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I guess same generation as the victims here. And I remember hearing about Paradise Lost so much so and hearing about how it will continue. scar you really with the opening scene from the very first moments of the documentary will change your life and just completely change your view of the world. I wasn't ready for that.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So that was Stevie. Next is Christopher Byers. Chris was the son of Melissa Byers and his stepfather, John Mark Byers. Chris was kind of a hyperactive, rambunctious kid who often broke the rules and drew the wrath of his stepfather, John Mark. His mother often found clothes hidden under his bed caked in mud.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And when his mother would confront him about going to Robin Hood Hills against her wishes, he would deny it, which is why he was hiding his clothes because they would get muddy when he went into the woods.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
But she, like I think a lot of mothers, while the woods seemed like an absolute paradise for an eight-year-old boy because of water when it rained and this pipe bridge and being this mysterious forest. Not so exciting for parents. You can't see quite in there. It's thick with brush. There are rumors about people coming off the interstate going in there. It butts up to some low income housing.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
They're just things that you can't watch out for. And so understandably, his mom really didn't want him playing there, but he just couldn't stay away. It was too fun. And then the third of the victims is Michael Moore. Now, Michael was the leader of this group of boys. All the boys were in the Cub Scouts together.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
But Michael absolutely loved the Scouts so much so that he would wear his uniform whenever he could. He was, in fact, wearing his Scouts uniform the day he died. And those are our three young boys who we will talk more about. But as you can see, they were what you would expect eight-year-old boys to be. They were thick as thieves with each other. They biked. They had fun.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
They had a streak of independence, wanting to defy their moms and dads at times, as kids do. But they were also just having fun with each other. They were kids. Next, we are diving into the characters who are going to investigate this case. So there's Detective Ridge. He's one of the detectives on the case. Ridge is the one who first found the first of the bodies.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So there was obviously a massive search to look for these boys all over, including focusing on the woods. And he was the one who uncovered the first body. He also conducted an interview with Damien on May 10th, shortly after the boys were found, and he interviewed Jesse and Miss Kelly when Jesse confessed.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And because of that, actually, Brett, I avoided this case like the plague for my entire life. So before we researched this case and research of this case was a I don't know, how old is this podcast? That's basically how long we've researched this case. I stayed away from this case until Basically, we committed to doing this.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So obviously there will be more characters, but those are kind of the main characters to give you a little bit of a lay of the land. And now let's talk about locations. Because unlike some of the other cases we've covered before, like Asia Degree, where there were cars involved, transporting people far away, things like that.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Here we are talking about a relatively compact geographic area where most of the characters we just talked about are biking or walking to these areas. So the... Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And I think that's a good thing because I do not I really have not followed this case for decades. This was not something that I knew a lot about. I didn't read about it every time it came up because I knew it was a horrific, horrific murders of these boys. I just I couldn't bring myself to learn about it growing up because they were right about my age all the way until now.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So because of you all, I've done what I didn't want to do, which is to learn about this really tragic case.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
The fact that this will come up as well, the fact that these kids, I mean, they're teenagers, carry around things like knives is pretty common as well. Right. This may not be the neighborhood that you've grown up in, but we'll see this come up in terms of violence was all around. Carrying a knife was not that out of the ordinary. He certainly wasn't the only one who carried a knife.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
This is like when you go to a super fancy restaurant and they give you like unrelated palate cleansers. Like my favorite sushi restaurant gave you like sorbet between different meals. That's like what those Wednesday episodes will be. In other words, you're going to get a lot of the prosecutors. I hope you're here for it because I'm here for it, Brett. You know what?
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So as you can tell, we've said that I certainly have heard a lot that Damien was on the police's radar. Now you have some background of what that means when people say he was on at least law enforcement's radar. Now let's fast forward to May 7th, 1992.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So the Arkansas Human Services receives an allegation that Michelle, Damien's sister, has been sexually abused by Jack Echols since she was seven years old. At the time of this allegation, she's 14. So the allegation is she's been abused by Jack basically for about seven years.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Now, Echols claimed he may have been overly affectionate with Michelle, but he denied the sexual abuse charges, though he did admit he'd previously been charged with indecently exposing himself to his older daughter, a different daughter than Michelle. So there's certainly smoke there, if not fire.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
We've at least committed to doing this podcast for the next year until it finishes.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Pam doesn't believe the allegations, but Damien is described as having a low opinion of Jack and believes it's in fact true. Now, this upsets Pam, who reports that Damien has little regard for others and only wants to use them and bring harm to others around him. Now, it's important to know the context of where people's comments are coming from.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So Pam is Damien's mother, obviously, but she is not wanting to believe this very serious allegation that her daughter has been abused, sexually abused for seven years by someone she had married and who had adopted her two kids. And when Damien stands up in support of Michelle, believing her allegations, she's
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
This draws the ire of Pam, who says these things about Damien saying, you know, he doesn't care about other people. So knowing, you know, is this out of anger? Is that really what she thinks? You know, would it be different if he didn't support Michelle's allegations? Keep this in mind in terms of what we hear about people as they kind of move through this timeline.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Right. And it's worth noting that his own mother is basically standing up for this man that she is now divorced from that he doesn't think very highly of. So then just a couple weeks later, not even two weeks later, on May 19th, 1992, Damien Echols is arrested after he and Deanne run away to be together and break into an abandoned trailer where they're going to be married.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Now, Eccles is questioned by Jerry Driver, who's a juvenile officer for Crittenden County. Driver believes something satanic is going on in the area. And he also suspects that Damien Eccles is involved with whatever the satanic thing that's happening. So he questions him about it. And Eccles tells him and another detective that he and his best friend, Jason Baldwin, are involved in the occult.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
But he is not a Satan worshiper. Rather, he worships Hecate and Diana, who I think he says, like, God is a woman, something like that. But he doesn't. He denies being a Satan worshiper. Now, Eccles describes himself as a gray witch. Although Eccles is not a Satan worshiper, he tells the officers that there is a group in the county that is.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And that police report reads, quote, Mr. Eccles was asked what was the extent of the cult activities was in Crittenden County and the West Memphis area was. And he told us that it was fairly extensive, that there was three or four groups in West Memphis itself.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
they were further along in their activities than he may or may not have been and by that he said that he meant that they had reached the end of their animal sacrifice portion to receive power and that the next logical step would be the sacrifice of a human
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
From this point forward, Driver has a bad feeling about Damien after he's talked to him about the occult and all these things and interviewed him, arrested him for breaking into this trailer. So Driver says that he has his eye on Damien.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So basically, after he interviews Damien and Damien tells this elaborate story of, you know, three or four different cults moving towards human sacrifice. Driver spends most of 1992 looking for evidence of what he believed was a satanic movement afoot in West Memphis. The former football coach drove the roads on the nights of full moons looking for cultists. He was trying to do his job.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
He had a feeling. Now he gets this elaborate story from one of the people he thinks is involved in the occult. self-acclaimed to be involved in the occult. And so he is doing his investigation. He is on the lookout for signs of the occult.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
We should really start a poll.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And I honestly, I didn't know this is what IQ tests were meant to test, like imagination. I thought it was just like processing skills. I also thought this was very strange. But as you can see, whatever the amount of time it took to take this test, which is Not that long, right? It's not like this is from his therapist who he sees hours weekly or something like that.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
This is the takeaway from the person who writes up this report. So on September 2nd, 1992, Damien is admitted into St. Vincent's Hospital in Oregon over concerns that he is suicidal. You can see that he has lots of touch points with both mental health facilities as well as law enforcement.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
He gets admitted for being suicidal because he locks himself in a closet with what his grandmother believed was a knife. But she also says it may have been a spoon. It's a pretty big difference, spoon and knife. It's a huge difference. But what this tells me is that they don't know how to deal with him, right? If you think it's a spoon, you're going to say, oh, it's a spoon.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I'm going to deal with this. But this more sounds like you have a child perhaps that you don't know how to deal with who may be out of control and you're seeking help. So could have been a spoon, could have been a knife. Either way, I think he needs professional help is what I'm hearing from the adults in his life here. His parents are also reportedly concerned about Damien's interest in Satanism.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And so whatever it is. He's admitted to St. Vincent's Hospital. You know, you'd have to know more about what's going on in his life, his evaluations. But I will say these two particular instances sounds to me like you may have an out of control teenager you don't know what to do with.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So you're kind of seeking other options for help, whether because you don't want to deal with it or you don't know how to deal with it. So on September 4th, 1992, while Damien is at the hospital, he's just there for two days, which leads me to think it probably wasn't, at least the doctors there didn't take the suicidal ideation too seriously because he's discharged.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So according to Exhibit 500, which details much of Damien's struggles with mental illness, his family no longer wanted him to live with them, which tracks with two days earlier when I said he locked himself and they sent him to the hospital. And because they don't want to live with him, he is sent back to Arkansas.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And Damien, it's not like his family packs his bags for him and, you know, throws him a goodbye party and they all drive down together and find a good place for him to live. No, Damien, really barely an adult, really still a teenager, gets on a bus and goes to Arkansas by himself.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
It's a long bus ride from Oregon.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
You know, in a lot of ways, it's almost like, don't really care if you make it. It seems like it, right? It's like such a long trip. He has been known to like, you know, skip school, run out of places. And you're going to put this kid on like a cross country, essentially, half cross country bus and essentially say, good luck. September 10th, 1992.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Unfortunately, it appears that when Damien returned to Arkansas, he actually violated his probation that resulted from the earlier incident at the trailer park. So because now he's back in the jurisdiction and he had violated his probation, because remember, he'd already been arrested a couple of times. He was then arrested again and sent to a detention center.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
While he was in the detention center, he supposedly sucked the blood of a fellow inmate while rubbing his blood all over his face. Because he did this, and just a note, if you are to do this, one of the first things the people who run that facility will do is they'll probably send you to a mental health facility, and that's exactly what happened to Damien.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So this is the same mental facility he'd been in after his arrest. He's there for about two weeks, and he's discharged on September 28th to his adoptive father, Jack Eccles. Remember back to when the allegations about Jack Eccles molesting his sister? Damien didn't have a very high opinion of Jack.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
But here he is being discharged from a mental facility after allegedly sucking another person's blood to the man he doesn't think highly of is going to now take care of him. Now, Damien promises not to harm anyone else. And that brings us to the end of our timeline of 1992.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So I think we've actually covered a lot of ground, but not enough ground to make this less than 38 episodes or whatever.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
We've been very disciplined to get to start. We've been so disciplined in this first episode. I'm not sure that we can stay this disciplined throughout.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
No, except if you didn't ever want to hear about this case, don't worry. Like we said at the beginning, we'll have other cases. We have a whole other podcast, Legal Briefs. We have lots of episodes coming at you. But also, I don't think you've heard this case covered this way before. So if you're looking to learn something, there's a reason this case has gripped generations at this point.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And there is a lot to learn. And I'm still wrapping my full arms around everything. But please do come back and let us know what you think.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And I will say this, on episode one of, I don't know, 68 episodes, and I've read through everything, everything. I told Brett this a few weeks ago when we were deciding what day we were going to start recording. I was like, better be soon because I am having dreams about this case every single night. I wake up in the middle of the night thinking about this case.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Probably I won't even look at them because, frankly, I was going to say I can promise you I will not look at them because I again, you cannot unsee them. Don't go search for them if you don't already have them either.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Like with Adnan, same way when I started, right? It was like, is it just a guy? Like it's so, it feels so meaningless. You know, is this just like three bored teenagers killing three little kids and it's just so sad and that's it? Or I always want to like assign larger meaning to what this means for our life, you know? And I'm not there yet. That's what I mean.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Like when I finished Adnan, I got to something bigger, right? Like it was not just...
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Well, I know. That's my point. I didn't know how I felt about it when we started Ad Night. So Baby Boy really is sick. Like, at first I thought it was something else, but he's definitely sick. We know that. But guess what? He broke through two teeth and he's not even four months old. This is the earliest any of my kids have had teeth. Insane. Like, is he a vampire? What is happening?
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And as we start to record, I can truthfully say that I am an absolutely no camp. I am along the ride with all of you as we dive into the trial transcripts and the evidence and talking about it with you, Brett. I know my thinking will develop as it does in most cases, but right now there is truly no camp. And here we go. Let's dive in. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
This is the last time before West Memphis 3 and everything is a whole new chapter. Let's go.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So many neighborhoods. Not that West Memphis was perfect. West Memphis lies at one of America's great crossroads. Not only does it border the mighty Mississippi River, but it is at the confluence of I-40, which runs from California all the way to North Carolina, and I-55, which runs from Chicago to New Orleans. In other words, very big interstates.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
In a way, West Memphis lies at the very heart of America with all the problems one might expect. Along with goods, drugs flowed along the interstate. Transients pass through, as you have whenever you have large interstates, and residents would often see strange people they didn't know hanging around the area.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
particularly in the little copse of woods bordering the suburb where Stevie, Michael, and Christopher lived. Those woods, little more than a football field in size, were all that separated this neighborhood from the interstate and the Blue Beacon truck wash. A diversion canal called Ten Mile Bayou ran through the forest with a pipe bridge across it.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
from off that canal ran little ditches that only filled with water when it rained as it had in the weeks leading up to may fifth nineteen ninety three nearby overlooking the woods were the mayfair apartments which was a low-income housing area
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
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The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
He's a highly sought after expert and speaker for his extensive knowledge regarding historic events. and contemporary serial killers. Check out Crossing the Line with M. William Phelps weekly podcast and number one narrative podcast, Paper Ghosts from iHeartRadio, both executive produced, written, and hosted by M. William Phelps. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
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The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
With online therapy, you get quality care at a price that makes sense and can help you with anything from anxiety to everyday stress. Your mental health is worth it. And now it's within reach. We talk about this all the time. Therapy isn't just for big traumatic events, although it can be helpful in those situations. It's also just helpful to learn positive coping skills and how to set boundaries.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I know it helps me empower me to be the best version of myself when I have to be lawyer, mom, podcaster, all the things in my life. Therapy helps me be the best me. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. It's convenient too.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
You can join a session with the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life. Plus, switch therapists at any time. Your well-being is worth it. Visit BetterHelp.com slash prosecutors to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash prosecutors.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I agree with you two dashes is proper, but I wasn't going to change out of principle.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Oh, my gosh, y'all. Y'all, this is just too good. Because here's the thing. The dash could act as two purposes. It could simply be like a space. When I was doing it, it wasn't like, you know how sometimes it's just in parentheses. That's how we do it for work, you know, in parentheses, like who you are. But anyways.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
oh my goodness okay um how was your day it was good it was good good good today was like a long monday i was just hanging out i was hanging out with mr alice on the couch before coming to record and he was like yeah and then i had that breakfast this morning and i was like that was today like three days ago it was a long day i'm so tired yeah but you you had a good day
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
And I was wondering, I was recording earlier today and I was like, it was raining and this is upstairs. And I was like, can you hear the rain on the recording? I don't know.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
We made it to the pool each day and it was approximately 60 degrees. It was freezing.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Oh, no, no. It was too cold for everybody. Did y'all go to the dinosaurs?
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
No, because we are like adamantly into cephalopods right now, which means to the exclusion of dinosaurs.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
It's kind of weird. I'm like, you can like dinosaurs and cephalopods. And they're like, no, my whole heart devotion is to cephalopods.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Happy Mother's Day to all the mothers who are listening.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
It was a great day. I'm trying to think. Did I tell the story? No, we haven't recorded since. Did I tell you the sweet story of my oldest? Why don't you tell it again? Maybe the sweetest thing he's ever done in his life. I know I've already told it before, but I had to tell it again because he didn't do anything sweet on Mother's Day, so I'm just going to have to live off of this forever.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
But he woke up early and put a little chair. By the way, it was a children's chair, and I didn't have the heart to tell him that my –
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
large adult buttocks did not fit in it so i couldn't sit in the chair and he pushed it up to the coffee table and put a cup of cherry or a cup of water and cheerios because that's what he can reach from his vantage point so sweet that's all he did and then on sunday he kind of dialed it in because he was like good morning i made you breakfast and he handed me a bowl with the whole orange inside not peeled
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
just an orange and i was like oh thanks so it kind of went downhill from there but it's the thought that counts and he said that you know how they do those adorable what do you call them mad libs he wrote my mom is really good at putting bad guys in jail oh which is sweet because that's i didn't i didn't think he knew what i did
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
It's not like I can't listen back, but. Okay. I'm ready. Let's get through this!
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I don't do criminal now, so there's that. For the most part, if we go into criminal, then things have gone wrong.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
We went to the zoo, too. That was fun. Oh, wow. It rained at the zoo. I'm a great mom. I took them to the zoo on Mother's Day. But it was really cold. Again, it was like 60 degrees. I'm ready anytime. Okay. I can't wait.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Oh, darn. I need to pull it up then. Hold on once again. Okay, let's see. I have to get the whole name right. Okay, got it.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Let me tell the school that we're recording it right now because they asked and I forgot to respond.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Okay. We always say good law make good fat or good facts make good law. Bad law. Bad facts make bad law. And in this particular situation, clear as mud, you can see how the victims here have truly suffered a lot. And their voices.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I don't know, man. I'm excited about CrimeCon, though.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
How did you have time? Today. I like sped watched everything. How did you have time to watch it?
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Sorry, you had to do my work. I'm sorry. I didn't even know that.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Seems a little aggressive. I have an idea what it is, but man, that stinks. Sorry about that. I put more work on you. It's okay. It's all my fault. I'm sorry. Blimey. I was going to say, let me think of a, let me, let me put in my mind of a, words are escaping me and it's not going to bode well for tonight. It's great. Okay.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
This was just... Wait, oh, you're not kidding? No. You really did have to sneak out?
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I'm sorry. I left you in a difficult situation when I left the office.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. But thank you. You're welcome. And don't you think I don't know that you've been trying to remove me from all the cases that I'm still on the doctor for? Oh, yeah.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I appreciate it. No, thank you for doing that because I had been doing it, and then I was like, there's too many cases. I can't do this.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Oh. No, I didn't piss anyone off, Justine. I just left all the work for Brett to do is what I did. Yeah. I mean, I guess the people I prosecuted are mad at me.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Can I share a really quick life hack? I'm sorry. I just thought about it and I wanted to make sure you knew the life hack and anyone else too. So we, we fly out of Atlanta all the time, which is like the largest airport, literally. Like one of the largest airports in the country, maybe world. I always, I think I've shared this with you.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
You only did it. Okay. Okay. Did you want to just talk through what happened today? Yeah. That's it. That's all I want to do. Okay. I'm sorry. Oh, how am I feeling? Not worse. Not better. Okay. Which is good. When you're not feeling worse, that's good. My lungs hurt a little bit, but, like, whose lungs don't hurt?
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Okay. I might cough a good bit tonight, but it's okay. Okay. Why can't I think of anything to call you?
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Oh, because you snuck out that fast. I know. I was thinking about that.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Well, somebody did lie. They clutch their pearls. And there's a finding of it. And they faint. Okay, I got you. I got you. I got you. I'm ready. Don't let me forget this word. Okay, accent. Can you talk about accents for two seconds? I just heard my child break out of his room. Let me go lock him back in his room. Yeah, do that. I'll be right back.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Sorry. Middle child has figured out how to run out of his room, so I retaliated by taking his documentation. Oh, wow.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Whatever. I said it. I'll do work when everyone's asleep.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I watched it like during dinner and my kids were like, what's happening? Who was murdered? It's like nothing.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I only do carry on from ATL because I park in the international terminal. There is a parking area. business there, whatever it's called. And they take you directly to international and it cuts the time it takes to get in and out of the airport and security by like 30 minutes for me every single time.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Well, thank you. OK, let me let's save this because this is good. This is part two. Right. We'll just call it part two.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
No, sorry. I was listening to Stolen. But like, there's like so many episodes about nothing.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I mean, because there's not much information. I get it. But it's like, I'm like six episodes in and I'm like,
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
there's nothing yeah it's like a lot about her her own trauma right which is great i mean you know which now i mean i do understand why people like our show because it's like it's they're recounting facts but that's like it you know like there's no like thinking about what it means and like
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I mean, this is how most people think. It's true. It is true. When you don't have much information, but like so much of it is wanting.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Also, we're like recording every day this week. So people can pick and choose what they want.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Okay. Anything in particular? I'm ready whenever you are.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I don't know who turned it down, but it did. Sorry about that. I saw someone complain.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
All right. It did get turned down. I don't know who turned it down. I mean, there are a lot of chillins running around here.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Okay. A couple chillins. Okay. You ready? I'm ready. Is this prosecutors or legal briefs?
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Duh. Sorry. Okay. I've been on a field trip all day. I'm so tired.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
We'll probably record. Don't worry. We're not going to.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I just want to let you know, cause a friend just asked me where to park and I wanted to share that life hack. It has saved me hours of my life at ATL. So anyway, that's all.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
You'll see plenty of Brett. Brett can't stay away. He does love you guys.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
This is not part of the episode, but enough of you have asked. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring your questions because I think there are a lot of you who like, remember comparison is the thief of joy who are like, how are you having another baby? Like it's impossible to, you know, it's such a struggle this day and age of having kids working, keeping your life together.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I will have a real talk with you. If you're in that boat, first of all, don't ever compare yourself to something else. You see like an hour of my life. But like 99.9% of the rest of my life is a mess. I'm happy to share that with you because I don't want false impressions. But if you ever feel alone in motherhood, in balancing work and your life, whether you have kids or not, send us an email.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Like we are so real about how crazy our lives are, which is why we're so thankful for all of you. Because the only reason we keep doing this is because y'all are so worth it. Like you guys are... It's just really some of the best community I could have never imagined finding this late in my life. Like, you know, this was not on my bingo card of life.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
So don't compare yourself to anyone who has one, two, three, however many kids has however many jobs. There's more to the story. And if you want to talk about it, I'm more than happy to talk about it with you, but don't compare yourself to other people. So that's all.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I just wanted to mess with you. I wanted to mess with you is all. I'm ready.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Let me close these. All right. Ready to record? Mm-hmm. All right. Hold on. Don't update. Three, two, one, record. Boom, boom. Okay. Let me just check my volume. Okay. Volume. Okay.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
That was me the other day. Yeah, let me just... Yep, you're fine.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Settings. I'm tired again. Did you guys get home yesterday or today?
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Oh, I love that. We should sell something like that. Real quick cooking story. Thank you, Jason Blair, for sending me some maple syrup, which immediately made me think of Elf because, you know, you put maple syrup on spaghetti? Yes, I made the most delicious granola with that maple syrup. And I'm talking, Brittany is stuffing her face with it. And like granola is hard.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Good. Just, you know, a weekend is a weekend. It's really fun. We went strawberry picking. Got delicious strawberries.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Because you make fun of me when I invite you to pick strawberries.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Okay. Hold on, let me do one thing. Just, you know. Okay, do you want to start recording again?
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I'm loving this, like, all of a sudden cold snap we just had.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
It was awesome. Except I was totally misdressed this morning. I had, like, a sundress on, and I was like, why? Hello, hello, hello. Hello, hello, hello. All right, I'm ready when you are. To record again? Mm-hmm. Okay, three, two, one, record.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Okay. okay it's almost too late here one of 37 yeah let's get started on why west memphis three baby west memphis three and how we are going to exonerate them all 24 and 25 is all we're doing
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
So just shut it down now if you think you're going to get another case. That's right. Oh my goodness.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Oh, I do. Let me think of a descriptor. How do I not be too spicy in my descriptor?
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Yeah, I'm not going to be spicy on this one. We'll save it for 2026, a little more spicy. Okay, let me think. I've already called you Supreme, so.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I really do like playing with everyone about West Memphis 3, though. It's really fun.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
All of this. All of this. All I'm saying is, you guys are really making the case for us to do it, not... People are just so ridiculous about this case. Why are people so angry about this case? My goodness. I don't know. I think there are so few things in this life that are not, like, directly related to me. Like, something that is my life that gets me this fired up.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I mean, I'm clearly not. Here's the thing. I don't have time for social media. I really get a kick out of it. So, like, y'all can't touch me because I don't know that you're mad at me because I have a life.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Because everyone wants to hate on us. And if I wanted to find all the hate out there for us, I wouldn't have enough hours in a day, so I choose to ignore the hate.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Like it's not a baby food, right? And she is just like covered in granola. I'm finding it like in her shirt, in her hair. She's a fan of maple syrup is all I'm saying. So thank you. And I'll post that granola recipe because it is delicious. Put it with some gravy over it.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I'll tell you this honestly about every case that we've ever covered. I don't go in thinking anything because I haven't heard of the cases before we do them.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Nothing. I know nothing about anything about it. I can't even emphasize how much I don't know about it.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
No, of course not. Of course not. And you know what? That is the way I approach these cases on purpose. I don't go read Reddit. I don't like go listen. I read the case file because that's what we do when we get a case. That's what we ask the jurors to do. Don't go do your own research about like what everyone else is interpreting. Right. What do the facts say in this case?
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
So, yeah, that's just the truth. And that was the truth about Adnan. I care one way or the other about Adnan.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
And here is why this opinion, this Arkansas Supreme Court opinion, confused me so much, because I don't know anything about this case. The facts that the dissent puts out and that the majority puts out, that's the extent of the facts I understand about this case. And so when I was reading this, I was like, this is not a statutory interpretation case.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Like, I literally read it and I was like, I don't understand. They said it was habeas. This is against their jurisprudence. And I read it three times because I was like, this just makes no sense as a legal opinion. I didn't, it wasn't because I cared about Damien Echols and his position and testing. I don't even know what they want to test. I literally have no idea what they want to test.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
But if you're talking about statutory interpretation, this is a confusing opinion. And I just want to point that out because if you have like a law student reading this, trying to learn about statutory interpretation, they're going to like fail their statutory interpretation class. So just like be warned.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
And I think that's helpful to know because for so long, you think that everything you read is exactly what they're telling you. And like the older I get, the more I realize like... People say whatever they want and call it whatever they want. And they co-opt language and define it as they want. And that's why oftentimes like language is very confusing, not just because it's my second language.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I can't. It takes so much time. I'd rather just give away my recipes for free. Okay, but learn it. You can put whatever dried fruit you want in it. Don't put dried mango. Dried mango is my favorite. I tried. I failed. It burned. I think it caught on fire. The rest of it was fine. I had to pick out all the mango chunks, which is too bad because I love mango.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
and i think that's that's why i like the law because i like the reasoning so when a court does what i think this court did here i think it's worth pointing out like hey i mean this is this is pretty outcome based and look they get to do it they are the supreme court you know like we're just a couple of podcasters like whatever we don't get to decide it but like you're allowed to understand how statutory interpretation works and we're not the only ones who think this
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
And this happens. This happens not just at the Arkansas Supreme Court. This happens in lots of courts. This happens sometimes at the Supreme Court, you know. And I think it's important to know enough to be able to recognize when that is happening to form your own knowledgeable interpretation of what's happening.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Don't leave them on. We don't know when it's going to be.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Is that your way of getting people to listen to us for years?
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
But dates, chopped dates worked beautifully, so that was great.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Oh gosh, guys, this is not, this is not a play on that. It's just that it's a huge case and it takes a very long time.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
We might have to wait for our kids to, like, be a little more self-sufficient so we have time to research.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I mean, it was kind of detailed in this Arkansas opinion. Like I said, I don't, I haven't read the whole transcript yet.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
We're not going to get into this now, Brett. It's going to be 100 episodes. Well, this has been fun, as always.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I can do Tuesday if you need. I just have to get up really early.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
That's all. Thanks for the maple syrup. Send me ingredients. I'll incorporate it. I'll try to create some recipe. That's all I got. That's all I got. I thought we needed something light.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Bye, guys. Oh, stop your recording. Okay, I'm back. I'm sorry, guys. I just... When I had to, like, sit here for 10 minutes and, like, sit with my thoughts about Robert, it got really sad. So, sorry. You were seeing really sad Alice. But I, like, skipped my cup of coffee today. Never do that. Never go cold turkey on coffee, especially when you're, like, a five-cup-a-coffee-a-day person.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Because I was, like... I was like feeling good. The sun was shining. I was like running around and I was like, I worked out and then I like did something with the kids and I was like, I don't need coffee. I'm past the top and needed coffee. And then I was like, maybe my kids naps will coincide. Now, maybe I'll take like a cat nap, like a 30 minute nap. So I'm not going to drink coffee.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
And of course, no naps aligned. No cat nap happened. And I'm so tired. So I was coming up here and I was like, oh, you know, like a full day with your kids Saturday, Sunday. It's wonderful.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
all you wonderful moms who are able to stay at home with your kids all the time like man like oh you're amazing because after two days i feel like you know i'm dead and so i was like oh i can't drink coffee now this is like crazy then i'll never go to sleep so i grabbed a handful of wilbur buds Which we got from Lidditz Elementary. They're these chocolates that look like they're not.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
They're not Hershey Kisses. They're better than Hershey Kisses because they taste like real. Does that make sense? Like it tastes like cocoa just like melting in your mouth. So I grabbed a handful and they were like melting in my mouth. giving me life as I was sitting here waiting for you, Brett. And now I actually do feel much better, but that was my caffeine of choice as I walked up here.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
So does anyone else know what Wilbur chocolates are? Had you ever heard of it? No. I've never heard of it, but I hope we can buy them somewhere because I don't know what's going to happen when I finish this bag. Okay, guys, I'm going to put it in the comments because you guys will hear all about Lidditz Elementary later. Yes, Wilbur.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
But it's like this tiny town of 10,000 people, but it has everything. It's like the greatest town ever, including the hometown of this amazing chocolate that you should all go buy. And also, I found out that Like in my other life, I have a job. My client is the parent company of Wilbur. So I should tell my client to pay me in chocolates.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Because I really want those chocolates instead. So anyways... Yeah, we're not getting paid for this whatsoever. This is not an ad. This is just me telling you guys I discovered a chocolate today that, and you guys know I love chocolate. I love chocolate. These are just like little drops of sunshine in a bag. You just eat them.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
They're a little smaller than Hershey Kisses, but bigger than chocolate chips that you cook with. And they are life-giving.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
end now i'm ready for now i'm theory and with that now i'm now i feel see i just needed to ramp up i need to get there you know okay okay thank you thank you for putting up with me okay you ready yeah okay here we go i'm nervous okay really quick obviously we're like stalling so you know when you're nervous um I'm nervous.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
So did you know, I think I've said this before, when you have adrenaline, adrenaline makes you need to pee.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
And so before I ever went on stage for all my performances, the one thing you weren't allowed to do was pee right before going on stage because it was adrenaline rather than you actually needed to go to the bathroom and you'd then get rid of all your adrenaline and you need your adrenaline for performance. And so it's always been like,
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I don't know if this is a rule for all performers, but, like, I've been told this since I was a child. Like, you don't get to go to the bathroom right before you're going on stage because that's your adrenaline. It's not really needing to pee. I need to pee. But I think it's adrenaline. So, anyways, TMI. Sorry.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Let's see. I'm going to need to take a break because we're only like halfway through. So give me like two seconds.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Okay. That was intense. I'm glad I had those chocolates.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Now I'm all, this is the thing. Now I'm all amped up, but I was like so tired. I could have an hour and a half ago. I know we've talked about this. So now I'm going to go watch the documentary, I guess, for tomorrow.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
All of a sudden we had so... Oh, don't forget, legal briefs this week needs to be... Does it have to be this week or can it be next week? I mean, I thought we told them it was going to be last week.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I love me a good pun. Thanks, guys. Also, the Prasa Cruisers on the gallery. That would be awesome. I laughed so hard at the Prasa Cruisers. If you don't know what I'm talking about.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
No, no. We had a lot of... There was a lot going on. A lot. Yeah, exactly.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I know. We need to release that one. Okay, we'll do it the 4th. Let's tell him when it is so he can plan.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I'll go on a cruise. Heck yeah. I definitely watched that. Was it Netflix or HBO documentary about how cruise ships work? It's great. Fascinating.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
All right. I mean, how great was the, like, almost fall weather we have?
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
All right. We haven't done one of these Q&As in so long. I'm excited.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
And we're not using GetVocal, which we totally broke last time. We're not. No shame to GetVocal.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
They didn't. No, I'm saying that might be the problem.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I know, but it was hard to get anyone to pay for it when it was like that. Anyways, okay. Ready.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Okay, okay. Hollering's fine. All right, I'll sign on and I'll explain it. Okay. And now, for all of you who are still here, the man of the hour who we are so excited to see.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Thank you, guys. No, thank you, Sophie. The greatest. You guys are the best. Thanks for being such a supportive community.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Let's do it. Okay. It's just like rolling in slowly this week.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
All right. Hold on. Is this the... Kill list. Kill list. Hold on. Oops.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
The swim meet got rained out, in case you were wondering. It was like, it was supposed to start at 5.30.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
The Kill List podcast is a true story of how one writer ended up in a race against time to warn those whose lives were in danger. Follow Kill List on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Kill List and more Exhibit C true crime shows like Morbid Early and Ad Free right now by joining Wondery Plus.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Check out Exhibit C in the Wondery app for all your true crime listening.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
When do you want to record this week? When are you out of town? I should say.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
If you want to wait, we can. Let's record. Could we do 840? Is that okay? Like 10 minutes later? Of course. That would be perfect. We can do 845.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, all of these pools are outdoors. But it was like seven minutes to start time. And just like the skies opened. And I was like, please, please cancel. Please don't make us wait here and like start an hour late, you know? Yeah, yeah. And they canceled. I was like, bless you. Because it was already going to be hard tonight.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
I really was afraid you got sick, but it was just cheering for the time, man. Now I'll say this.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Like you felt like you were going to pass out because you were screaming so hard you couldn't breathe?
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Okay. Okay. If it were, that's actually a little bit better. If it were like on TV, I'd be like, I don't know, Brett, I think you should get it checked out.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
That's really, I'm sorry to hear that. But I know exactly what you mean. Like, man, like, I can't drop it like it's hot. I never could. Like, I can't even pretend. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
We're so excited to have Kristen on, guys. You are in for a treat. You're always in for a treat when you hear from her.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Okay. If you have great descriptors for me, I would love that. Me? No, not you. Oh. Kristen, have I asked you before? What does Othram mean?
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Man, you might have to say that again. I wondered it.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Yeah. Okay. I'm going to go ahead and start because there's just too much good material that we're like, you know, we're just going to make you say it. Leave it on the table. Leave it on the table. All right.
The Prosecutors
285. New Years Bloopers Part 2
Going live. Okay. You know, it's summertime. Cause like you're right. It gets like hotter and hotter in the closet.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Sure. While you do that, I'll just talk to the people. Okay. So Sophie, I really did like bib of BS, but except that, you know, I don't want to curse too much. Cause I don't want, if kids listen to it, I don't want them to, to be put off by the cursing. Okay, but I like where your head's at. Bib of BS could be a thing. I think that'd be pretty funny if I wore a bib. Took out hateful things.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
There we go. It does sound like a loose plug. Okay, I no longer hear it now that he's gone. That's good. You guys have some good theories in the chat. I've been thinking about this nonstop. It's like all I can think about of what happened. And I think I finally settled on it. You guys are going to have to wait. Big bib of caca. Well, let me be clear. I try not to curse.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
You know, like on our Instagram and on the show, it doesn't mean throughout the day, I don't mutter a lot of things under my breath. So I'm no saint. I think being a parent and probably a lawyer in general, my level of cursing has increased exponentially and throughout the day too. So don't, don't give me too much credit. Don't worry, Peace. I do read a good one. I do read a five-star review.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
You just wait for it. Okay. Let me think about what I'm doing. So what I did today, for those of you who have been along for the ride for a very long time, I planned Brittany's birthday party. Can you believe it? I can't. And it was like very last minute. I almost forgot. I didn't forget her birthday, but I definitely didn't plan anything because I have to travel around her birthday.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Birdie, to answer your questions, I can curse in three languages. I can curse in a couple Asian dialects, but that might be one language because it's like Cantonese sounds a lot like Mandarin. I can't speak Cantonese, but I can curse in Cantonese. I don't know if that's good or not. It's better because my kids definitely don't know I'm cursing.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
They have yet to repeat anything because I think I do a pretty good job of saying it under my breath when they're around. But, you know, that can... That can quickly go out the window if I stub my toe. The theme for her birthday party is flowers. So everything's floral. She has a flower dress. The gifts are little like recycled papers that have seeds inside. recycled into them.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
And so you put the paper in a pot and it sprouts flowers. I thought that was like a good sustainable gift. And also I'm that parent who doesn't let my kids eat sugar. And so I didn't want to give like other people's kids a bunch of candy if, you know, that's making them have to deal with sugared up kids.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
So I figured this was a nice little like science experiment that kids could go home and like plant sugar. the little recycled paper with seeds and grow flowers and think of Brittany. So that's, that's what it is. And yes, she wears a lot of headbands that are much too big for her head because she's tiny. She's like in the second percentile. She's so tiny. She's like, should not be that tiny.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
She looks like a six month old and she has lots of bows. All bows are big because she's so tiny. Yeah. So that's kind of, that's kind of the plan. It's a little bit hard to plan a birthday party when you have two older brothers because all their friends are going to come and it's going to be like chaos, right? Like utter chaos.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I mean, everything's going to be broken and they're going to get all hopped up on, you know, cake. So that's all. But thanks for listening because that's what I did today was plan a flower themed birthday party. And she is very cute. She's also very tough. She's probably the loudest person in our family, which says a lot because we are all very, very loud. All right.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Man, Brett may never come back. Sorry about that. Oh, good. I'm glad other people have small... My kid is literally below the fifth percentile. So I think she's in the second percentile, but the doctor's afraid to tell us because they're afraid we're going to be sad. But she eats everything. She's just tiny. She's a tiny little thing. Okay. You okay? Is your internet working yet?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I can hear you. The static is back, I will say, but no big deal.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
That's okay. If you don't hear it, it's fine. This is day two, right? But part one.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Let me save that. I had left it going on. I talked about the birthday party that I invited you to that I hope you'll come to.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
You know what it sounds like? It happens to me when my blue box is close to my red box.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Yeah. I can't be more scientific about it. I don't know what they're actually called.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Yeah, the amplifier. And if my phone is too close to my red amplifier, I also get that typically. I'll put the phone over here. Just troubleshooting.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I know. And my internet doesn't work. It might just be the internet. We could also record tomorrow if it's better. No, I can't record tomorrow. We've got to do something else. Oh, man. I'm sorry. Let's see. It's fine. It's fine.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
my headphones okay can you check can you hear the audio file we just saved and see what that sounds like because that should give you an indication of whether this is okay like why can i only hear okay everyone else says that staticky was gone so it might have been your phone being too close to the amplifier yeah i just don't understand i don't either but i keep my phone here and when i put it down too close it happens to me too
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Yeah, we're chatting. No, we're talking about Brittany's birthday party and the theme. And it's going to be like very flowery and cute. But also there's a bunch of boys because, you know, she has brothers. So there's going to be like trucks and tattoos, temporary tattoos and, you know, things that they want to play with. Because if they're occupied, then they will not, you know, ruin my house.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
So none of my kids have actually eaten cake on their birthday. I know I'm a terrible mom. I do give them like they usually get something like... Like, for example, I really like Aussie Bites at Costco. They're like made of quinoa. We call them quinoa cakes in our house because they look like little cupcakes.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
So Aussie Bites, I let my kids eat like on their birthday because they're still like, what, agave sugar or agave syrup in it. And so they get a little candle in it and they eat that. So she'll probably get that. Maybe you'll give Brittany the award for her birthday.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
The green room conversation. Sorry, guys. We were late because of me because we're getting that new roof I talked about like several months ago. And the roofers, man, they must be the hardest working people, actually, because they were here at like 5 a.m. and they just left. Thank you, Mallory, for recognizing I am my own greatest fan for jokes. If you don't laugh at your own jokes.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
uh that would be pretty funny i just can't hear myself i know i know but you know what do you need to hear yourself i'm very sad i like hearing myself we all know you walked into that one i'm just sad i don't know i don't understand i don't understand all my problems
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
It's fine. It's fine. I know, guys. I know. And you guys sound just like my family members who are like, how can you not give your child a cake on their first birthday? I will say this. Her favorite food, get this, is roasted broccoli. So I think she might be afraid.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Oh, no. Give me two more seconds. Oh, no, Justine. Can't find the right hole. One star.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
We're having a lot of fun. Okay, as long as you're having fun, I'm fine. Okay, I'll tell another story.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Okay, I will tell a true crime story, y'all. There you go. Today, I went to Costco because I go to Costco all the time. I know exactly what you guys are talking about on the gallery. And if you ever want to find me, I'm at Costco. Like, you could just go across the nation and go to Costco's and you'll probably find me.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Anyways, I went to Costco today and I always park along the side of the building. Like, Every Costco is the same, right? There's like a million parking spots this way. And then there's usually one row right along the side where they load all, it's not the closest necessarily, but it's where they load all of their 18 wheelers. And I park there for a specific reason.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I usually have kids with me and there's a sidewalk there and the building. And so I can get my kids out of the car directly onto the sidewalk and basically not have them run across the parking lot because my children are feral and run across the parking lot. So I always park on this side.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
So when I come in and you come in like a different entrance to always hit this side of the building, it's kind of, I think, where employees park. I parked and I pulled in and I was on a conference call. I parked my car and was about to get out of my car. And I look next to me and there's tons of people at Costco. It's the middle of the day. It's like lunchtime.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
this like very nice suv not very nice it's a jeep but it's an suv right like it's not broken down it doesn't look like your typical car that may be in illicit business had three bullet holes in it rusted through right like it had been shot years ago and they were clearly bullet holes in fact i think like a bullet had been smashed i could see like an end of it still lodged into the side of the car and i was like should i
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
park somewhere else like this is definitely there's been a shootout over here and I bet the way the spray pattern was like the glass was probably shattered at some point and they had to fix because the glass wasn't shattered and it otherwise looked like a pretty normal family car except for these three bullet holes that were rusted through right there and I was like but I'm gonna kind of cause a scene if I like just pulled into a car and then like
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
backed away and just moved one spot over like isn't that judgmental like maybe they got caught in the middle of a you know crossfire and it's not their fault so i decided to keep my car there okay great i'm gonna finish the story about keep telling the story keep telling the story so i was like i'm just gonna stay here because i don't want to be that person who doesn't want to park next to a car with bullet holes in it because how judgmental is that and i got out of the car and just really prayed that no one jumped out of the car and like kidnapped me and they didn't
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
And when I left, the bullet hole car was still there. And I looked in the car because I was really curious. I'm like, you know, am I going to see scales in there? Like someone cooking up meth? You know, it looked like a family car. It had like some, you know, kids snacks wrappers, snack wrappers, and bullet holes. So anyways, I don't know if anyone else has had this experience, but it was my day.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Oh, I've been recording this whole time. Okay, well, I'm going to save this as Alice's bullet hole rant. One second. Okay.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
You deserve it, but don't drink too much. You might be called to duty.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Okay. If Jason's on here, it's called Alice Storytime while Brett has microphone trouble. Okay. I'm ready to record. Ready? I'm ready. Three, two, one, record. Just curious. What was the issue?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Yeah. Do it live. I love when they're late. Makes me proud. Turn your volume up just the slightest. I was also sitting back a little bit. That's on me. And also, I don't know if you had this after you had COVID. It's hard to talk louder. It is. Like, I hear myself muffled and I feel muffled. Mm-hmm.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
So I recorded, I recorded, I don't know if you saw it, but I recorded a couple of the one star reviews. They're so mean and it's so funny. I have to not laugh while I'm doing it.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
yeah yeah like well you can laugh if you want to feel free to laugh at them you know just some of them just go crazy with it go crazy my favorite are like when when you know it's like the the bless your heart it's like not trying to be mean and i'm like you're being mean yeah yeah maybe it's just me yes it's just yeah it is you it is you
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
You're about to call me something really bad. People are about to go up in arms, man. Okay. I've had a tough day. This is how you're going to do me. Okay.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
so anyways i'm like i'm like hello all i just have it's just so funny i laughed really hard today i had to shoot it a couple times because i was laughing so hard that's funny that is funny um you know what else i did today what else did you do today I bought a mommy and me matching Easter dresses for me and Brittany.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
It's very cute. And of course, I bought matching shirts for the boys because I don't want them to feel left out.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Oh, oh, oh. I'm ready to go to West Memphis. I don't know where you're going.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
West of Memphis. So west that it goes around the world and lands in D.C.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Okay. Let's see. It's okay. We're not ready either, guys. Like, literally, I'm not ready. Her voice is loud. Thanks, guys. Is that good or bad? I don't know.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I'm going to take so many pictures. This is going to be so cute. She's going to be so cute. She's such a little nugget.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Sorry, Leslie. We were messing with you. Or were we? Is it April Fool's Day? Can I tell you something while you're looking for a word? My oldest, like, read some book and for the first time realized the concept of April Fool's Day. And he's so excited about playing a trick on April Fool's that every morning he wakes up and he's like, is today April 1st? I'm like, today is not April 1st.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
So we have a countdown to April Fool's Day. We are almost at Brittany's first birthday. Thanks, Joe, for remembering. We are, like, so close. I can't handle it. She has like, she had no teeth and all of a sudden she's like, she has all these teeth. They're all coming in at one time.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I like, I don't have a baby anymore. Like, what? Like, she looks kind of like a toddler. I'm like, I can't handle that. She has little buck teeth. They don't attach. Yeah. Little buck teeth.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Yeah. Look at us getting through the timeline. That's not efficient. I don't know what is. By the way, we have ads.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I will be sued. Well, whatever. Real quick, they've said it multiple different ways. They do say it different ways. Is it won, won, or wong? I'm going to go with wong because that's like the Asian. I mean, it's all- Whatever you want to say. America-fied. I was just curious because I- I thought it was won, but- It reads won-
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
but i think it's wong you know with like but he doesn't have a g there's no g no i know but like remember when the the anglo-saxons whatever it's called when you come through ellis island they just butcher your name like you really think my maiden name is spelled that way no like that's not the way you spell it i don't know that your people came through ellis island though was there like a similar place on the west coast was there like a place that everybody came through
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Because my people, my people, my people. I don't know when my people came, but my people came like 20 years ago. So it's like not the same.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
You know this is going to be good because we haven't even gotten to the intro.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I mean, I think that's what the Golden Gate Bridge is in some ways.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
It's kind of like, it's like a carrot and a stick, right? Like with your kids, you're like, you could go to the, what is it called in Matilda? The place they have to go. Oh my gosh, what's the name? The book, Matilda. Where the teachers, the teachers like throw them into the, ah, it's like the cage.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I thought I heard those closest to him say Wong. Like how you would think W-O-N-G. I thought that's how his friends pronounced it.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Like W-O-N-G. I can't say it without saying the G. I know, but look, the G doesn't exist in like... the Asian language anyways, it's all, you know, anglicized.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Okay, is he Chinese? Because there's no Chinese word wan, but there is wang, wang, right? Like the Chinese word is wang, which is the G sound. That's why I'm like, the chokie. Thank you, Justine. See, Matilda, they threw him in the chokie.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
But their spots are not. That's what's crazy. They're genetically identical, but the expression is not. And you know why they're genetically identical?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I can't remember. Is he? I know he's Asian American, but is he Chinese American?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
It doesn't mean he's necessarily Chinese. Look. All I'm saying is it's one of the most common last names, and it's Wang. That's the Chinese pronunciation, which is anglicized in lots of different spellings. So W-A-N-G, W-O-N-G. I've never seen W-O-N-E before, but they can all be the same Chinese word, but spelled differently.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Jamie says he's fourth American Chinese American. I don't know what his Chinese name is, but I would just assume it's the most common one, which is Wang, which sounds like what a lot of people write as W-A-N-G or W-O-N-G.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I personally like that we're spending so much time on him because you hear about the victim.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
If you guys can't tell what we're doing, these are one star reviews and they're so fun.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
The unadulterated us. This has been a long week. It's Thursday. I had a delicious floor dinner, meaning I ate food off of the floor that my kids dropped on the floor, and that was dinner, and it was so good.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
You have to do what you do with the map. You got to make it big.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Yeah, you're about to have the door bang open and hit your head.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Finally. So I think I need to get a new roof. We had like a roofer guy come today. Man, roofs are expensive. Should I just not get a roof? Yeah, they are. Who needs a roof? I know you already had it. Who needs a roof?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Sorry, Justine. You asked me about a comment. Let me scroll up. Sorry, I wasn't paying attention. Oh, I did not know there were additional books to Where the Mountain Meets – I've already forgotten what it's called. Where the Mountain Meets the Moon. So thank you for that. I am very excited to read the additional books. Okay, I know you guys are talking.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Why does it have to be the aliens? Why can't it be like... It was nature's way of saying, like, you know, you're going to be eaten by every other wild animal, so we'll give you one to hunt with. Okay, wait. Don't forget we have ads today. Oh, we have ads. I don't want to forget. Let's save this first. Oh, was it still me? Sorry. Oh, I didn't mean to say about that. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
This is not the only reason I'm glad Brittany's here because I've tried. I've tried to read Little Women and Anne of Green Gables and whatnot with my boys, and they're just not interested. But I'm excited to be boxcar children with them. Loved boxcar children growing up. Yeah, there's just some great children literature. Sorry, I'm looking at photos. I was like, are you jamming out over there?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
You do look young. But the problem is you can't quite see the kilt. I want to see the full kilt. I want to see the whole kilt and caboodle.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
There we go. She sent it. She's good. She sent the whole Kilton caboodle.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Because there's a special coat that goes with the dress kilt? With a bow tie? Is that how you wear a kilt? With a bow tie?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Oh, Wrinkle in Time is a fantastic book. That's so good. You guys, these are such, we are like on the cusp of being able to read these books at bedtime, and I'm very excited.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
That's going to be a little bit longer, you know, before we can get there. For us, at least. My kids will not sit that long. My boys are six and four. My six-year-old, like, loves to read, so I think he can start to sit through these. Oh, The Outsiders. Such a sad book.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Sorry, sorry. I thought you looked pregnant with thoughts, so. Okay. Oh, just by the way, this has been a week of fun. The AC did break, so it is hot in here if I start sweating. That's why.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
What? Oh, you put it out. Okay. I was waiting for you to put it out. There it is. There it is. There it is. We'll get you with all that dark hair.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I'm starting to get like, you know. What happened? It's getting to the point where I can't pluck all the white hairs.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I'm with her on that one. It's not like there was a reason for you to wear the kilt except that you liked it.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I'll even be in your wedding. Is there a female equivalent of a kilt? No. I don't know. Like, is there the pattern? You know, because the kilt is the pattern because it's like your family pattern.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Look, I am not playing around. I am here to record. Just kidding. I did like get off a plane like two hours ago. You know, I always smell after getting off a plane. I think it's the other people that make me smell. You know, I'm just like... It can't be that clean of air. Even though during COVID they were like, there's no cleaner air than on the airport.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Remember? Maybe it's true, but it's kind of like one of those things when you breathe it in, if you're in space, you know, it's like the cleanest air, but like, it can't taste good.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Yeah. Of course. How about I'll start, and then from there, we'll just switch off.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
oh i guess i should go live sorry i'm a little you should i mean you know no one's judging no no no it's all good he is all good kilter tonight it's okay it's the first day of the rest of your life is it only monday it is only monday that's how i feel that's how i feel i'm going live going live Live. Going live.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
So we're only late now because we weren't here on time was because we just forgot to go live. That's all. Just like you guys should know. And I got off a plane like two hours ago and I was telling Brett how, does anyone else feel like you just smell when you're on a plane? I'm not, sorry. I'm not showered yet, guys. I came straight to the live.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
But like, I always just feel gross and I cannot go to bed that night after being on a plane without showering. It's just like a mental thing. Like, oh, there's so much stuff in the air. Anyways, I thought I would share that tidbit about my life in case anyone else was OCD like me when it came to airplanes. I also, like, wipe down my phone with alcohol wipes. Never!
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
You know, your phone is, like, the dirtiest thing you own. Only when I get off a plane do I, like, wipe it down with alcohol wipes. I'm like, who knows what's on this phone. Anyways, that may all be TMI, but Brett's trying to figure out something on his end, so I'm just trying to entertain you guys.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
No, no, no. You do away. I'm just sharing my plane. I'm still, like, in the mentality of having been on a plane. So, just thought I'd share. Do you like flying? I'm not afraid of flying, if that's what you mean. Like, I don't have anxiety about flying. I like it that it gets me far distances in short amounts of time. Like, today, this is kind of crazy.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Today was probably the most like DB Cooper I ever felt because I literally flew to a city to have lunch and I flew back. Like I left in the morning with like literally just a purse and I had no changes of clothes. I had my laptop in there and like a charger because, you know, you got to always have your charger. They even have snacks in the bag. That's how short the trip was.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Landed, did a conference call, got in an Uber, went to the lunch, spoke, came home. And, like, landed by close of business. So that felt very DB Cooper, except I did not hijack the plane nor jump out of it. I did not. I did not hijack the plane. My briefcase was not great for jumping out of planes, so I decided next time. There's always next time. Next time. There's always next time.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
But I look skeptically at people when I see them have, like, one bag. I'm like, are you going to hijack the plane? So I wondered if people thought that about me, you know? Not even gummy bears. Guys, I'm trying to be good. You guys are so wonderful to me.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
But when you loaded me down with so many gummy bears at CrimeCon, it may have really set back my efforts at not eating a pack of gummy bears a day. Stop, man. Thank you. That was amazing. But it wasn't great for the personal goals of not eating a pack of gummy bears a day.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Okay. Anytime you're ready. I'm just blabbering until you're ready. So it's doing its thing. Yeah. You take your time. I will break up the script while we talk about this.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
All right. I'm ready. Okay. All right. I'll start us off. A complete and valid verdict. Go ahead. So it's not... Go ahead.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
No, no, no. You finish that. Are we now just taking on... You never. You never step on my toes, Brett. You're the most... You're the nicest person ever. Well, I don't interrupt you ever.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Okay, enough. Enough of that. We can do this. I'm glad I highlighted where I was last time. I was like, why don't I do this more often? Because I get so lost otherwise. I don't really see why people were so convinced by the defense experts.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Okay, cool. I didn't know if I missed something. I was like, it's another person. Because they weren't even. They weren't shown the stuff, right? It's kind of like, hey, I want you to look. This is exactly how I deposed my expert last week. He was not given any of the relevant information. So he was given the inputs to create the exact outcome that they wanted.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Right, which is what you do with experts, by the way. Like, I get it. That's why you cross-examine them, you know?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I just didn't understand, because before I watched it, people were like, oh my gosh, I didn't believe it until I heard them. And I was like, these guys?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Like, what is a car strike? There's lots of things. OK, cool. I just didn't know if I missed something.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I mean, they're not bathing themselves in glory in general right now.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Okay. I keep looking at my door because I was a couple minutes late because as I was walking up here, child number two was screaming his face off. And I was, like, about to do that parenting thing where I was going to, like, bust in and be like, you're supposed to be asleep. And he was, like, on the floor crying because he had a nightmare. I was like, oh, I'm sorry.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
So sorry for being late, but I was— I don't know. Casting away the demons, whatever you want to call it. Getting rid of nightmares. I don't know if it's successful, so we'll see.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
All right. We're going to finish this up today, y'all. Like it or not, we're in it for the long haul. That's right.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Sure do. I'm ready. You don't need my permission to start. I'm ready.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I was going to say, if you can't pronounce it, then you know it's a good one. You know what's funny, guys? Those of you, while he's trying to pick out something, those of you who are like, what's next? I legitimately can't remember what's next because we've already recorded it before Karen Reid. And it's been so long. Okay. Okay, I'm ready. But they're good, I can tell you that much.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Awake. Very awake. You guys aren't even seeing like half the recordings we're doing this week.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Do you want to do ads tomorrow night? Oh, okay. Either, either. I'm totally fine. I'm just like, my heart's still pounding from thinking I was almost murdered by my son.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
You know what? We like making everyone lose their minds, so why not?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I know. I'm pretty sure. Let's just get the ads out of the way. We're jazzed anyways.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
No. Don't you dare. That's not even funny. All right, let's stop this. Actually, when I left the room, I was afraid I'd stop recording.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
It's so hot in here. It's like 100 degrees outside. Today, my choice of chocolate was the bark thins, the peppermint, because I love peppermint chocolate, as we have established, that apparently not everybody does, which is fine. But the bark thins is the brand, and it's the mint chocolate. Popped a couple of those before I came up. Because I was like, the mint might make me cool down.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Forever. Record. Has my sound been okay? It sounded fine to me. Okie dokie.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
And I don't know if you can hear it when you play it back. I don't know.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I think I am able to work out to come Thursday night after all, by the way.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
It'll be too late. It'll be too late. I mean, maybe I'll still be there. Because I forgot that I do have childcare even before Mr. Atlas gets home. This whole juggling thing. You can't just leave kids.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Okay. Man, when I texted you earlier tonight, I felt dead to the world. I feel a little better right now, but it was a long weekend. It was a long weekend. You could have said no. No, no, no. We said to record Monday, and I just forgot it was Memorial Day. And we went to the lake. We took the kids to the lake.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
which was wonderful, but, like, they don't sleep for, like, three days straight, which means I don't sleep for three days straight. But it was very fun. And I was like, what was your favorite part of going to the lake? And they were, like, feeding the minnows, like, at the dock. Like, we don't need to go to the lake for that.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
They could have done that in the pond in our backyard when it rains too much. Let's see. This is an awesome case. It really is. This is so crazy. I'm trying to find a... Oh, there's my water. Oh, my goodness. There's my water. For those of you who follow my water bottle sagas, baby Brittany has been refusing to drink out of a straw, even though she's over a year old.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
And finally this week, she, like, got it. And then she skipped from, like, the baby little straws and wanted the, like, Costco stainless steel ones because everyone in the family has one. So now she, like, has this massive bottle that she drinks out of. That's, like, as big as her.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
No, it does not have a Stan Lee. But it is really funny to see her carrying a bottle that's like half her size because everyone else in the family has one.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I did say that. Well, thank you guys for putting up with my congestion, but it's really good to be with you guys and with you, Brett. And until next time, I'm Alice. And I'm Brett. And this is The Prosecutor's Podcast Legal Briefs. No, it's not. Nope, nope. One more time. And this is The Prosecutor's Legal Briefs. We're going to leave in the laughing because that's so cute.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I was going to let you just say Guatemala. Guatemala. YOLO. Happy Memorial Day, y'all.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I'm sorry, Jason. We should never record on holiday weekends. Okay. Okay. board all right okay can you hear me i can't hear you okay and you are not freezing say some things hello hello hello hello you have not frozen that's great okay okay you ready you ready for real this time bretney has to like go to the hospital tonight and we have i'm just kidding i'm not putting this on you
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I know. No, we counted her breaths. She's not in danger zone, so we're good.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Do you have a word picked? I'm just helping you. I do have a word. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Then I'm ready. I'm excited about this one. I am too.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
You haven't lost any magic. You're just as magical in 2024. Thank you so much.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
I thought about following it up with a very serious conversation about the R word and how deeply offensive it is to R people to equate me to them, and I'm very serious about that. But I decided to get off my soapbox on that.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
also who's stupid now five star exactly exactly that's what's hilarious about it okay um real quick uh we got to hello everybody hi everybody can we start recording oh of course okay hold on all right ready three two one record okie dokie i hope people understand the joke when they hear it though oh i think they will
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Wait, are you able to connect your microphone to your phone? Like, how does that work? You're doing it still on your computer. I got it. You're doing Audacity, but StreamYard is on your phone.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
We record. Okay. Hold on. Let me stop this real quick. Okay. Three, two, one, record. Look at that. Okay. How are your sound levels?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Hey, we got to 1159, right? No, did we get past that? Let's see.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Do we get to 12? Oh, we got to 1225. We got to his pronounced dead. That's right. We're at the early morning now. Gotcha. I will say whatever I had, the flu, whatever that whole thing was, it has still, I know you had this too post COVID. Like it's still, the mucus still like settles in my throat all day. It's really gross.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Thank you guys. I'm sorry. We always keep you so late. I know.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
It's disgusting indeed. I'm ready anytime. I know you've had a long day. Do you still have to work tonight?
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
If you ignore the problem, it doesn't exist. All right, guys. If Brett has the hate hat, I've been trying to think all day.
The Prosecutors
284. New Years Bloopers
Oh, okay. Well, while you're trying to figure that out, now that you have the hate hat, I've been racking my brain all day of hat of hate of what I can do. That makes sense. I was thinking of something using Brittany's bib. Because she has a bib that catches food. Catch all the comments. Catch all the one-star reviews.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Not because anyone's necessarily lying, although later on as statements change, there's reason to believe either wanting to minimize or create sorts of alibis for people that they want to create alibis for. Just purely on a direct evidence standard, people's timing and memory of times is incredibly, incredibly faulty.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
They will not make any later because then it'll average out.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
I don't think this was his given name. You don't think this was his given name? I think this was his chosen name.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
That's my guess, based on the other things he's going to say.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Wow. Allegiances really switch quickly. Hey, the allegiance is still there.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
This is like a fun house of what are you going to get behind the next door? You're going to see that this is the case. And of course, here you have like Sir McKeel and also King David coming to the door. So on May 7th, the police receive a tip that Steve Skaggs, who's a 34-year-old, often spends time in Robin Hood Hills. That's the tip, by the way, that he spends time in Robin Hood Hills.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
You know, people are desperate. We don't know who's done this horrendous crime. And so because they get this tip the next day, officers meet with Skaggs. Now, Skaggs worked as a mechanic and lived in a junked Cadillac behind the shop. And he claimed that he was at work on the day of the murders from 830 in the morning all the way until midnight, which is crazy. Quite the shift.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
That's a very, very long work day. It's just about an entire day. Interestingly, though, Skaggs quit his job on May 6th, the day before that tip came into the police about Skaggs. And he and his brother intended to leave town, but his brother was arrested for unpaid fines on May 7th, which is why he was still around when the police came knocking. So this is all interesting timing.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So his job was his alibi. And not only was it his alibi, it's a Pretty intense alibi. You know, it's not I worked from 830 to 11, took a lunch break, went around, saw these people, came back and worked. It was that he worked all day, basically from sunup until midnight. I don't know who's getting their car fixed at midnight, but apparently there was something to be done at midnight.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Even more interestingly, if you're working such intense hours, you would think it's because you're very dedicated to your job. You have a lot of work. Business is good. You make a lot of money there. But then all of a sudden you quit.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
and your intention is to leave without anyone knowing in the dark of night, and you would have gotten away with it had it not been for some pesky unpaid fines, which your brother didn't pay. And then, in addition, the reason Skaggs lights up on the board for the police is that he has served time on a breaking and entering charge in 1982, so he's not clean as a whistle.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Now, breaking and entering is not quite the same as triple homicide, but I will say... Breaking and entering is actually one of those crimes that we find to lead to incredibly violent other crimes down the line. It is not the same as petty theft. To breach someone's personal property and to be able to go in is a different type of criminal character makeup.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So even though it's not a triple homicide, I will say that's the type of crime that if I'm looking at someone's rap sheet, I'll say, hmm, that's interesting. Even though it's not technically violent, it's only oftentimes not violent because no one was there to be violated.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Not bad, not bad at all. Oh, and on top of all this, he's essentially kind of a floater, right? He doesn't have a house. He lives in a junked out Cadillac. I mean, this is the profile you would think of basically a wanderer who has nothing to lose, who may be doing something like this. So the police go talk to him.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And when asked if he'd heard anything about the murders, Skaggs says he kept hearing the name Damien and that this Damien might be involved in devil worship. Now, you might be thinking, well, duh, if I did it, I'm definitely going to point my fingers elsewhere. So I agree with you if I'm talking to the police and they're like, have you heard about these murders? And I am guilty of it.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
I would definitely try to divert attention away. But what's interesting is he names Damien and he names him in the context of devil worship. Now, Skaggs isn't sure of the last name of this so-called Damien, and he believes Damien's last name might be Wren, like the bird. Now, in a later interview, Skaggs will say that Damien had changed his name from Michael.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
In the same interview, he'll say he'd heard that Stevie Branch's father had been a big-time drug dealer, and the murders could be revenge for that. This is all over the place. Is it Damien? Is it not? You don't know who Damien is, but you somehow know that he changed his name from Michael because that's pretty personal.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
By the time Damien is like here and known about town, people know him as Damien. So for you not to know who he is, but to know some very detailed facts about something that probably not everyone would know, certainly not a stranger off the street would know, is an interesting fact. So you clearly do know him a little bit better than you're letting on.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
and then if you're deflecting attention to someone else this damien guy who's a devil worshiper why are you now throwing spaghetti at the wall and saying and you know what one of the victim's fathers is a big-time drug dealer because what you're implicating of course is that the drug cartel are after what the boys in order to pay back some sort of terrible debt that one of the fathers has
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So he throws all this out there at them. This interview is all over the place. Your head should be ringing. And so what did the police do? They give him a polygraph test and he passes the polygraph test. We've said this many times before. Polygraph test doesn't actually read your mind. You could be lying and pass a polygraph test. So it is not admissible in court.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
It is possible to pass it if you are lying. It just looks at your biometrics. But it certainly tells you if someone's nervous or not. And for whatever it is, he passes this test and then the police lose interest in him.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Which is really too bad because there's nothing we can do about it. Like, we've given you all the information we have. But if I were on this case, I would be like, well, great. You passed it. Let's keep going. There's still a lot of smoke here.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
This is really interesting because you only wear one pair of shoes typically. Only one of them needs to be muddy for this necessarily to matter, but also it doesn't necessarily mean the combat boots weren't muddy. He's himself saying if they were muddy, then I cleaned them. So either way, I don't think it really says much.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
This is all really interesting. This is not just Damien. This is also the other people they've talked to so far. All these people who are opining about the murders, I don't know about you. I just wouldn't opine about an active investigation where there's a murder because I'm not going to tell you what I really think about it.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
I just think it's really interesting that all these people who are talking to the police are giving their insights on the murder when, like the thrill kill part, if they are not the ones to have done, have murdered these boys. I don't understand why they are opining and wanting to be part of the investigation and talking about it like this with the police.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
This isn't just gossip with their friends. So this is just an interesting side note of the way all of these people in town are talking about this investigation and how confusing it may be for the police officers who probably this is the first triple murder they've ever investigated.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Right, so on May 9th, the police interview Murray Ferris, who was a student at the local high school. And the reason he's kind of on their radar is Murray had once pulled a knife in school and threatened to kill another student. Now 18, he was said to be involved in cults and was described by Jennifer Bearden as the head of the local cult.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
In fact, Jennifer said that Damien speculated he might have killed the kids. Again, very interesting. This is all like he said, she said, but I guess that is how tips work before there were, you know, cell phones. So I guess this is their form of tips, right? So Damien, apparently, this is only through Jennifer, speculated that Ferris may have killed the kids.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Ferris told the police that he was the leader of a cult, he's like, yep, he's owning that, of white witches called the Order of the Divine Light. You may have remembered hearing about them. Damien also said he was part of this order. And police noted the hex mark, a pentagram, that he wore on a necklace. So think about this. The police are investigating.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
They've already heard basically like cult, witchcraft come up in multiple contexts. Now they're talking to this guy, Ferris, and they see this pentagram around his neck. And so what do they do? They go to their trusty, dusty polygraph machine. And they ask Murray to take a polygraph test. And lo and behold, he passes it. So the police are like, well, there you go. He passes it.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Again, if you guys haven't followed us for a long time, you may not know our beef with polygraph tests because a lot of people truly think that it tells you if you are lying or not. It measures things like how fast your heart is going and the biometrics that usually are affiliated with you being nervous and nerves being affiliated with lies. Look, these people are all like...
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
If they are, in fact, in kind of these alternative religions, self-described cult leaders, they're probably cool as cucumbers. Doesn't mean that they would have failed the polygraph test, but these are not your typical people. I would fail a polygraph test if I were lying. I just know it. That's just the way I operate. And you could tell if I'm lying, that's probably what's going to happen.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
They're talking to pretty interesting characters to begin with, who probably don't fall into your bell curve of where most people react in certain ways. And the polygraph is really for the middle of the bell curve, how most people react.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
I would say they're talking to people on the fringes of this society already, and then they're putting them within a method of interrogation that is meant for the masses, when I think we can say that they are not really your typical person off the street.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
They're useful for like lying, right? Yeah, exactly. To strong arm someone, which, by the way, you're allowed to lie in interrogations.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Okay, so the next day on May 10th, Chris Luttrell, who's a 16-year-old member of Murray's Coven, would tell police that Damien had attended a few of their Coven meetings, which is not surprising because, remember, Damien said he was part of this group. Chris told police that Damien liked to stab frogs with sharpened sticks to see how long it would take them to die.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
I was like five years old at this time, so I could absolutely have done this. No, never. I love animals, huge proponent of animals. If they died in my care, it was for a greater purpose. I did not like seeing things suffer. But here. This is interesting, of course, because we know the correlation between animal abuse and then it escalating to human abuse or serial killer tendencies.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Now, this is interesting whether Damien did it or not, but this is what Chris is saying Damien did. Damien had also told Chris that he was immune to fire. And he says this because he supposedly burned down his father's garage and stood in the flames and had also poured gasoline on his foot and set it on fire. Real quick on this. Coven?
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
I can imagine if Damien said this, it was to impress everybody, right? Like this would be the type of thing to be like, guys, I am a higher power. I belong here because I am immune to fire. So first of all, do I think that really happened? No, does it really matter? I can absolutely see Damien saying this. And does it have anything to do with his propensity to have murdered these kids?
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
No, I think it shows that he wanted to be part of this group and told a look how tough I am or how divine I am. Accept me or follow me or whatever it is. I just don't think it's tied to this. It shows how weird they're talking about these sorts of things, but it actually isn't even that weird.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
If we already know he goes to this order, goes to their meetings and their self-described activities, his story of being a Moon Defier seems to fit right in of what you would say if you wanted to impress this group.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
No question about that. And that's absolutely right. If you watch Paradise Lost, if you watch his interviews before they're convicted, during the entire trial process, after, and then the many decades after, he is such a wonderful chameleon. Whether he did this or not, it's amazing how different he can portray himself at every stage of this case. Just go watch his interviews and see for yourself.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
They seem like completely different people, in fact. Okay, so he's immune to fire. And then after Domini became pregnant, Damien also indicated that he intended to sacrifice the baby. This is not the first time we've heard this, by the way. Though at a later date, he decided the better course was to marry Domini and collect a government check.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So that's Chris Luttrell. He's really, I don't know how much. This is a very interesting investigation because this is how investigations are done. You talk to people who know the person and you begin to kind of do circles until they're tighter circles until you zero in on the suspect to see if that's the person. So this tactic isn't that unusual.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
The things these people are saying, it feeds into this whole after the fact, whether they're just being convicted of satanic panic or not. They didn't seek out Chris Luttrell because he's part of the cult. They're trying to find out more information. And this stuff is just coming out of people's mouths.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So there is something weird going on in this area, no matter what you say about if there is satanic panic or not.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
I mean, it is interesting that they go to a Baptist church and then they also go to their coven meetings.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
This has nothing to do with the case. It's just such an interesting. They do pop up later and they are on an MTV show, but not for the West Memphis three.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
About two years earlier. It's just interesting to note, like, again, in terms of wanting, the longer you are somewhere, maybe the more authority you have.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Can we just note again that they literally are 12 year olds and he's like 18 at this time.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Yeah, that's a good point. And I think this is relevant, by the way, if you think he did it, because this is an interesting thing. There are different ways to prey on young children, male and female. So an 18 year old talking romantically to a 12 year old is even in these times in the 90s is predatory behavior.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
It was not a different time. It was not a different time.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
girlfriend yes I mean there are lots of things these are just facts that we're putting out there it may or may not have anything to do whether he committed these murders but you're right you can think he did not commit these murders and still recognize certain patterns in here that we don't need to bless all of this is unfortunately the mind hive and we've talked about this so often you know there is just this tendency in the innocence community to act like anyone who is wrongfully confused of a crime is an angel is a saint and
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Then they truly if they had nothing else, they should have pinned that down within a spectrum. But the reason it's so hard to find the spectrum is because the police don't have it pinned down whatsoever. In fact, they're like, I don't know. Maybe they were north. Maybe they were south. And like, no, no, no. This is the most important thing to pin down because this is the beginning of the end.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Who he self-proclaimed was going to sacrifice, but nah, going to get a government check instead.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
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The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
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The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And you guys, Phelps is the real deal. He didn't just glow in with the wind when true crime became popular. He has been part of the true crime space for 25 years. He's consulted on over 350 hours of true crime television, executive produced documentaries, weekly series, and he's even written seven books about these true crime stories.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
He's a highly sought after expert and speaker for his extensive knowledge regarding historic and contemporary serial killers. Check out Crossing the Line with M. William Phelps weekly podcast and number one narrative podcast, Paper Ghosts from iHeartRadio, both executive produced, written and hosted by M. William Phelps. How very interesting, by the way. I will say this.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
He is, the way these interviews, you should read the interviews that Damien gives because he is very savvy in the way he speaks. It is very smart, by the way, to name someone as a suspect who has the exact same name as someone who ultimately will become a suspect. Because if there's scuttlebutt around town and someone's saying, hey, I heard a Jason Baldwin was involved, he can say,
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Yeah, I heard that too. Oh, but not this one. This is a fantastic tactic. Talk about throwing confusion and throwing dust into people's eyes. So this, whatever it is, it's a savvy tactic.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So this is all really interesting to note, right? He's asking questions about the killer. These are not directed at him. How did you feel? This is not their tactic right now. They're like, well, when you killed him, how did you feel? They're asking him questions and he is already note what his answers are. He is the one framing these murders as a cult murder. This is very interesting.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
His answers are about why they're young. It's for cult purposes, not just, I don't know, kids are easier to control. Someone was preying on them, whatever. He's framing himself all of these. Now, it might just be because he's in the occult and this is his frame of reference for everything.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
But I do think it's really interesting that he is framing this without the police framing it as a cult murders to him. When we're talking about where the satanic panic started or why did the police have it in their mind that this was a murder that related to the occult? It's Damien's answers here.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So a few observations. These are not your typical answers in an interview, right? We've seen their interviews with other people who are initial suspects or initial people of interest. And they also said some weird things, but it can fall into two camps. It can first be like, wow, this is really weird.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
If he were sitting in front of me and these are the answers he was giving me to my questions, I would be like, there's something not right with him. Either he's involved or there's something not right with him. to be speaking like this. This is not how most people respond to a police interrogation. But number two, I think this is also coming off in what the profile that you're seeing of him.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
He's just a smart ass, right? Now, if he's just a smart ass, these things are going to get him into a lot of trouble. So I don't want to minimize the fact that he may just be spouting off because he clearly thinks very highly of himself. He thinks he's very intelligent. He thinks that he can control other people. And he does. He's described by other people as like the leader. People flock to him.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
He's a natural leader, that sort of thing, right? So I'm not saying put all your stock in this weird interview. It is a weird interview, right? It may also just be because he is this type of a personality who basically wants to flick off everyone around him. You want to ask me questions? I'm going to give you smart ass answers and I'm going to have you spinning in circles. But also note this.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
He's having them spin in circles and they should investigate these things because these types of answers are troubling whether or not he passes the polygraph. So the police do continue to investigate down this line because they are avenues of investigation that Damien puts before them.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So if you want to say that they're creating these like occult lines of rabbit trails or rabbit holes, the police are being given these lines of investigation from Damien and they're supposed to follow them, which they do, rather than the other way around, which I think we often hear in this context that the police laid out this path of the occult and then they tried to fit Damien and the rest of the West Memphis Three within it.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
From this interview here, you can see that's not the order of events.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So following this interview, Damien was given a polygraph, like we talked about, and on the relevant questions, deception was indicated. So we're going to be consistent here when we said, whatever, if you pass a polygraph test, that may say nothing. Here also, all we're saying is he's getting nervous or he's breathing faster, all those sorts of things, right?
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
But on the questions that are relevant to the murders. Now, in the post interview, Damien was asked what he was afraid of, and he responded, quote, the electric chair. And if you read the report, it says after a short period of time, the subject ceased to deny his involvement. Admission through absence of denial. He then said, so whatever that means, I know I'm not exactly sure what that means.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Basically, it is a subjective way. It's not saying I did it, but rather he has said he didn't do it. I don't know how much that means if like an hour or two hours in, you stop saying, I didn't do it, I didn't do it. But the person probably did this, you know? So I would say it's probably a holding. He didn't do an about face and say, yep, you caught me, I did it. That's not what happened.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Especially when we're talking about a triple murder. Exactly. So that's a tight timeline for one murder. To murder three people and then to obviously do the covering up of their bodies is an incredibly tight timeline because we're not talking two hours. We're talking something short of two hours.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
He just stopped continuously saying, I didn't do this. Now, the report then goes on to say that Damien said, I will tell you all about it if you will let me talk to my mother. Detective Ridge brought his mother into the office to talk to him. And after talking to his mother, he again denied being involved in the murders.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
After approximately 20 minutes, I asked, you're never going to tell anyone about this, but your doctor, are you? And he replied, no. Very interesting first interview, May 10th. He fails a polygraph test. He himself says, I'll tell you all about it, but then talks to his mother and then continues to deny it. But this is like an interview tactic or an interrogation tactic. So you didn't do it.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
But if you did do it, you would only tell your doctor, right? So take it for what it is, but this is all, they had to follow up on him.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
It's a complete misnomer that it's halfway through the outline because this is outline one of many outlines of the case.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Did you have an amuse-bouche when you ate your whale? Amuse-bouche. I wish. I wish.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Oh, yes, I do. Very low barriers to entry. So anyone truly can do it. But obviously, because anyone can do it, it's a very crowded space. Talk about something that you really are passionate about. Because first of all, it takes a lot of time. It's a lot more work than I think people actually realize. And then see what sort of angle you can bring, even though it's a crowded space.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
There's also a lot of viewpoints that maybe are not represented. So think about what angle you bring. Don't just be another rehash and then do it on something that you care about. So it's fun and not work.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
You cannot go with the wind. You will never please everybody.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
You will not have time to have a podcast. You will just be a tweeter. You'll just be a flamethrower on tweet.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
If you enjoy doing a podcast, you come on two days after having a baby to record. Exactly.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
No, we're getting rolling here, guys. We made it through the day and have talked about a lot of very interesting encounters with different people who are suspects, alternate suspects, who knows. So come back because we are laying the groundwork, like we said, and when we get to the meat of the discussion, you want to be a part of it. There's so much to discuss in this case.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
We just got to make it through West Memphis 3, 101 and 102, and we are going to be off to the races.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Let's go live. I'm ready, man. Do it live. Okay, just checking my levels real quick.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
No, you sound fine. Do I sound okay? I sound a little echoey, so I'm going to add a little.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So some things to note about this, because we're talking about these things through the timeline with if you're just joining us on episode five, you know, there's the caveats of we're giving you all of the timeline. Some of it is going to be who knows if it's really true because we have conflicting times within the timeline.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
But note the things the timeline purposes for Hobbes and for John Mark Byers are. are confirmed outside of themselves, right? There's the police talking. There's other people who have no incentive to create alibis for them who are giving us these times.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Whereas this is why we're going to have to spend more time, obviously, on the alibis that you're beginning to hear of those who were ultimately convicted of these murders. Obviously, if the timeline you just heard is true, they couldn't have done it. They have great alibis, but we have to go more into them.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
So this is a little confusing if you're just listening to us for the first time, because we're giving you all of these things as a timeline, but not all of these entries within the timeline should be taken with equal weight.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Mad respect that Brett literally left the hospital today with a brand new baby, and he is here recording because that's how much we love you guys.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
When you said, hey, can I have 15 more minutes? I was like, oh, sweet baby needs 15 more minutes. You were watching basketball. I was.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
No. So this was already covered in the last episode. We basically condensed it for you guys here. But when you condense it and kind of get rid of the extraneous chit chat, maybe the one stars we'll say, you begin to see really how tight this timeline is. And you begin to see problems with a lot of the alternative suspects to those who are convicted.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
And look, there's still a lot to cover here, but you can begin to see you have to deal with all these different points. And obviously, these are all witnesses who report what they think is their timing. People's timing is really off. We do it all the time. What time is it right now? Any one of you, don't look at the clock. Maybe you just looked at the clock.
The Prosecutors
303. West Memphis 3 Part 5
Even if you just looked at the clock, you may get it wrong. And so keep this all in mind. You guys want direct evidence? This is direct evidence. It is so faulty. It is so faulty. And that is what's so difficult about this timeline is really the lack of a lot of circumstantial evidence to back up these timelines.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
This is how dedicated we are. Forget our families.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
It's aggressively, you know, like you can't aggressively.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
So we mentioned that Monica is not Adrian's only girlfriend. In fact, one of his other girlfriends, Claudia Beltran, was also at the bar that night, and she confirms this story. So I guess they all know about each other. I guess that's not what the fight is about. The fight is not about multiple girlfriends. I love this, though.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
It's no biggie. It's fine. In fact, they are each other's alibis.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Right. So after the altercation occurred, Claudia, the other girlfriend said that Adrian came up and told her what had happened. So basically she doesn't see what's happening, but this is kind of the close in time to when it happened confirms, you know, later testimonies of it. And so he tells her what we just heard.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
now there was another fight that same evening at the perfect rack and this one occurred in the parking lot five people were arrested in this fight they were four men and one woman and though this fight was not related to the fight with adrian in the bathroom there may have been some overlap
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
I don't hang out at these sorts of bars, but having seen a lot of police reports, this is not uncommon around the one to two o'clock hour at bars, certainly in Texas, I will say that, certainly in Houston. So just keep in mind, there's the like comments back and forth, punching in the bathroom with Adrian. Then there's another fight where people do get arrested in the parking lot.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Now, members of two different gangs were involved in both of these altercations. Additionally, one man, Wayne Garcia, may have been involved in both fights. Now, he only admitted to being involved in the parking lot fight, but witnesses like Claudia and her friend claim that Wayne may have also been involved in the bathroom fight. It's around the same time things are heated.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
It's not that far fetched to believe that at least someone is probably involved in both fights.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
So now Adrian doesn't name these men in his 2004 statement. However, police received information from an anonymous source during the investigation that one of them was Richard, a.k.a. Shorty Cisneros. Now, furthermore, during the 2017 reinvestigation of the crime that would follow, Adrian identified three of them as Richard Shorty. He said that this is the man at the urinal.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Ron Strandberg, the man who held Monica at the door, preventing her from helping Adrian, and Jason Woolley.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Now, when you start talking about all these phone records, Brett, you and I have like stared at so many phone records in our subpoenas before. And all I have to say is it's like the bane of my existence because they're so boring and they are not as straightforward as something like suspect one. Call suspect two at this time.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
They're like random numbers and you have to match the numbers and then you have to figure out if it was a hang up or, you know, in other words, there's a reason why these call analyses take a long time because I'm thinking about going to trial with these 51 calls. and establishing all 51 calls and how they happened and in what order in a narrative form to help the jury understand what's happening.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
I only say this because we are pretty spoiled in the true crime world to know these facts because it's presented at some point in a case, 51 calls. But in reality, 51 calls could be like an all-day testimony by a cell phone expert to get that into evidence. So just know this, it's not as simple as like clicking your fingers to know these types of things.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
You have to sit there and match up phone numbers and figure out what happens with all these cell phone records in order to tell your story when you're the prosecution. On July 14th, 2004, at 9.02 PM, Pablo, the guy who we said we were going to talk about at the top of this episode, makes a phone call in Wilmer, Texas, which he testified was made at a truck stop.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
The countdown's always happening for me. Like the day after Christmas, I'm like 364 more days. Here we go. So we're always approaching Christmas.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Now, Wilmer, Texas, is a three and a half hour drive from home. So Pablo was driving an 18 wheeler and based on kind of just maps, he likely did not get home before 1230 a.m. If we have this call from Wilmer, Texas, at nine o'clock. Around 10.30 p.m., Claudia and her friend Nancy Almanaz arrive at the Perfect Rack.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Nancy used to work there and went to the pool hall this evening to speak with the manager about getting her job back. Around the same time, Wayne Garcia, Luis Trinidad, and Fernando Chamayo also arrived at the Perfect Rack. Now, when they got there, they played pool with Jason Woolley and three other men.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Shortly after they arrived, Nancy was filling out her job application when she saw a fight break out outside. She saw a man in a red shirt fighting with a smaller man, and the man in the red shirt would later be identified as Jason Woolley. I know that was a lot of names. Kind of the operative thing here is we have a timestamp on where Pablo is at 1030. And it's not in Houston, Texas.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
It's somewhere probably between Wilmer and Houston. But at 1030, we have Claudia and Nancy at the perfect rack and we see a fight happening. Pablo's not there.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
So this night is rolling over into the 12 a.m. hour. So technically it's July 15th, 2004. So around midnight, Pablo's driving log shows him arriving back. But this actually doesn't match his phone pings. Of course, inaccurate driving logs are almost required for truckers. My understanding is like...
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
The time logs are not very accurate for truckers because they have certain rules of how long they can drive, for example. And so sometimes the numbers are fudged a little bit because they want to make it faster or whatever. You get paid by the miles, I think. So you want to get places faster in general.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
And of course, there's even human error with writing in a log. But what we have, of course, is his phone pings. So at 12, 13 a.m., Pablo's phone pinged in Spring, Texas, when he makes a phone call. That's nowhere near home. It's still a ways outside of Houston.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
at 12 40 a.m pablo left the mobile gas station on i-45 and airtex after dropping lg homes there now this is 30 minutes from pablo's home which means based on all his earlier phone pings this is right on the right timeline around 1 a.m pablo himself says he arrives home And that matches the latest ping we had from the gas station when he dropped someone off being 30 minutes away from home.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
When he gets home, he showered and ate a bowl of Lucky Charms. At 1 45 AM Pablo came see left to go to his ex-girlfriend's Anel Pina's home, a 30 minute drive away. Now at trial, she refutes this claim.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Of course I knew that living in Texas. But now I'm thinking in the ways of Alabama. Yeah. Oh, that's embarrassing. No, it's not. It's awesome. The mobile gas station. I should definitely know this. Everyone I know works for one of the gas companies. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Of course I did. That's where Mr. Alice and I actually got married. So Houston's like very special to us.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Did not grow up in Houston, but that was where we got married and where I had my second job, not first job.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
In other words, it's already starting to sound a little bit more like a setup. Like they were working with two people who are shooting, jump into the same car. Me as the prosecutor trying to put the story together is, oh, the first shot was like a reason to allow for plausible deniability.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Well, I clearly didn't shoot anybody because I shot the ground, but me shooting allowed other people to start shooting indiscriminately, except someone wasn't shooting indiscriminately. They were lying in wait to make the shot. And basically no one can point fingers because the person everyone saw shoot shot it at the ground. Tailors all the time, basically.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
No, you can't. No. So we've talked about clerkships after you graduate from law school. So I clerked for two different judges in Houston. I don't want to compare it to residency for med school because it's much less difficult than residency is for doctors. But it means that you get to see a lot of the city because a lot of their people just move there for the year.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
But one thing to note is that they probably were familiar with each other because these people have been at the perfect rack like multiple times in the same week. Your theory of maybe they're goading Claudia either wittingly or unwittingly to be part of a potential ambush is very plausible because I don't think they are complete strangers, right?
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
They have at least seen each other several times this week alone. Now, Claudia and her friend Almanza then returned to the perfect rack where they found Payen, who had been shot in the back. That's when they discovered that Bajorquez was lying dead on the sidewalk near the spot where Claudia had seen the man in the blue shirt emerge from between the cars in the parking lot.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Now, ultimately, both Jason Woolley and Pablo Velez Jr. were arrested in connection with the shooting. Pablo was arrested when police discovered that the gold Cadillac belonged to him. After they made that discovery, they showed Claudia Beltran his photo in a photo lineup, and she pointed to Pablo's photo saying, that's the man in the blue shirt. That's who I saw.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Now, both men were ultimately convicted of murder. Pablo Velez Jr. was sentenced to 30 years in prison where he remains today. So right after closing time, I guess, right after all this chaos ensues at 2 20 AM, according to him, Pablo arrived at Anel's house. Once again, remember she refutes this to authorities. So that's his alibi.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
So there's these like two potentially competing timelines, but Pablo's words are he drove that 30 minutes and at 2 20, when all this chaos is ensuing at the perfect rack, he's actually at Anel's house, except no one can back up his story.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
And you travel because it's part of the Fifth Circuit. So we go to New Orleans and kind of get to know the city really well, especially because we're hearing a lot of the cases from that area, often criminal cases.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
And that's the end of the timeline. And what you may have noticed is that there are a lot of repeat players, but Pablo hasn't really appeared that much except the presence of really his gold Cadillac. And maybe these two calls that he says are about the gold Cadillac.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
I think the people deserve it after having watched a rave happen at the beginning of this episode.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
It's Christmas Eve Eve.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
It is possible to hear outside of New Orleans, but no one ever does it because the reality is everyone wants to take their government per diem and go hang out in New Orleans. So I think, I mean, there's nothing illegal about hearing it in Houston. But in my many years of practicing before that circuit, it's never been in Houston.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Thank you. Thank you, Allie Sweeney, for being here. Best friends. She's awesome.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Oh, man. I'm not sure I remember the Hallmark movie Christmas names because I watched all of them. I've seen all of them. In fact, when I had my baby, all I did was watch Christmas movies. I watched every Christmas movie on Hallmark. So now the problem is like Hulu has their own. Netflix has their own. You know, all of the streaming services have their own. It's not a problem.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
It's a fantastic problem to have. But really, I like them simple. I don't want it to be complicated. I don't want it to deviate from the script. I just want it to be in a small town with beautiful lights, snow, but it doesn't look too cold. But Lindsay Lohan has been killing it with these Christmas movies. I don't know if you've seen them, but they're hilarious. I haven't seen them.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
They're really funny.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
When you have a winning combination, you just go with it. Okay, overall Christmas movie.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Have we answered this before? This is hard. Yeah, I mean, die hard. Because there's multiple, right? I know what we're going to be watching as a family tomorrow. And that's because we have small children though. We're going to be watching Elf. Home Alone is too scary for them still, but I love Home Alone. And there are now classics that wouldn't have been classics a few years ago.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Like Love Actually, The Holiday. I would count those as classics now, but they're not classics in the sense of like Home Alone and Christmas of the Cranks or something like that, you know?
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
I used to watch that every year, too, but now with kids, it's a little hard to do the whole sex scene.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
I don't mean that. Ruin everything.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
And another funny inside baseball, the 11th circuit where Brett clerked. And the Fifth Circuit used to be one circuit. And so every time you cite to a case that is pre-split of the Fifth to the Eleventh Circuit, you have to say this is before the split. So that's why it's binding precedent when you're talking about an Eleventh Circuit case, but you're in the Fifth Circuit.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Exactly.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
I do love Bob, actually. Because it's hilarious. It is hilarious. And anything for Hugh Grant to dance, you know.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
The Jack Black and Jude Law. It's just like a happy movie. And Kate Winslet. It's just, you know, just a happy movie.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
So today I baked, well, I hate to bake it, but I love to eat it. I hate baking molasses cookies because molasses are terrible to work with, but like molasses, gingerbreads are so yummy, but I like gingerbread, like chewy cookies, not the crisps and not like too soft, but like the true, like it tastes like molasses, but I really don't like working with molasses because it's slow as molasses.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
You can say what you like to eat.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
It is incredible.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
All right, let's see.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
And I'm Alice.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
There you go. There's that technicality.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
And I'm not running without you, so there. Case closed.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Hmm.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
We're already in the celebrity politician world anyways. Not that we're celebrities, but just really leaning into the whole true crime thing.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Yeah, tough on crime, obviously. The prosecutors. That's obvious right there.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Oh, I've been campaigning on that since I was a kid. No daylight savings. Just stick with the time.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
So there you go.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
That's really inside baseball, but that actually is relevant for purposes of precedence, which is something we've covered in legal briefs.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
I didn't know you were this passionate.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Yeah, I'm there with you, too. All right, let's run on true crime and daylight savings.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
No. Merry Christmas in January when you guys hear this. But really, Merry Christmas, Brett. When you texted me earlier, you're like, it's Christmas Eve. You want to record? I'm like, of course. It's all I want to do.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Nothing. Not spend time with my adorable baby.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Babies. So many of them.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
And I'm Alice.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
What is this? This is why you know that we're good friends. I'm not even questioning what's happening. I don't know what's happening. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
They're more than sister circuits, right? They're like conjoined twins that got halved.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
We work really hard on this banter that get us one-star reviews.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
And we're talking Texas. So this actually does happen. This is not, I know because I not only lived here, but I heard cases clerking for judges here. People just literally start pulling out guns and shooting. And there will be, we had cases come before us where like 150 shots were fired because someone heard a shot and it was like some stupid kid firing a gun into the air.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
And then a lot of people get hurt, obviously.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
So that's it. Like a lot of these shootings in the middle of the night that happen with some sort of disagreement, those are all the facts. So let's start with the timeline. On June 10th, 2004, a resident of the Sandera Briar Grove Apartments witnesses a shooting by a man she describes as Hispanic, six foot one, 230 pounds.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
The police arrive and they collect a .40 caliber shell casing that they will later connect to the Perfect Rack shooting. Now, this description matched that of a man named Ronald Leo Strandberg, who was a bouncer at the Perfect Rack.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
So if you are interested in kind of casings and how to analyze them, we've talked about this on Legal Briefs with an expert from ATF who talks about using the NIBIN system to compare these bullets, because it helps you to know if one shooting is connected to another one, especially if you have no leads, you can begin to hone in on who was at both of these places at one time.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
And that's what they have here. So a security guard writes down the license plate of a white older model Oldsmobile as F68FZC. This, however, matched a plate belonging to a Kia, not an Oldsmobile, but a slightly different plate, F68XZC.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
So if you're not great at remembering these things, that was just a difference of one letter, matched the car of Ron Strandberg, that bouncer who worked at the Perfect Rack.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Sounds like a kid trying to tell their parents like a version of the story. I went to the bathroom to buy a cigarette, a totally legal thing that you can smoke that I'm age appropriate to smoke.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
Merry Christmas, Brett. We are so close to Christmas while recording this, although I have no idea when this is getting released.
The Prosecutors
289. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 1 of 3 -- Friends in Low Places
And it's like 1 a.m. Everyone's been drinking. You can imagine he's probably saying something also suggestive back to her and boyfriend in the urinals like, you know, stupid things are happening.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
But a point on that, right? I also have been trying to figure out the sticks. I just assumed the sticks were where the bondage was because that's the only place where it could catch since there are no clothes. But the suction part, I think, is really interesting because if you've ever been around these types of creeks to push something into the mud to make it suction, you can.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
You certainly can, especially because there's been a lot of rainfall. You'd have to get... into the mud yourself, right? Usually because you have to push it deep enough for the suction to suck, essentially, that you would imagine whoever did the pressing, unless they used a third object, which there's no sign that there was a third object they used to press them down.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
They probably used their hands and feet. you would think that there would be a lot of mud coming on the person who did that and probably on their extremities because of the need to push with that much force to create the suction to keep the bodies down. Because I can imagine if what you're trying to accomplish is the suction, the first time you do it, it doesn't work.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
You have to do it a couple more times before it sucks because I don't know about you, but even if I regularly push things into the mud for suction, there's like a different viscosity with every type of mud that you have.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And so in order to get the right, unless for the very first time you were able to push, you were able to get that suction, more likely I would think it probably was a little bit of a trial and error, at least with the first boy. And with that trial and error, there would at least be some sort of balance.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
blowback of both water and mud all i'm trying to say essentially is the person doing this likely has a good amount of water and mud on them from doing this to not one but all three boys to create the amount of suction in this rain created mud pit and that's the other thing is it's only muddy when it rains so it's not like it's fully saturated it is saturated only at the time in which it rains making it i think probably a more viscous and therefore more like
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Less watery, more muddy, more creamy type of texture to get on yourself and less easy to shake off.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Hi, Brett. I feel attacked, but thank you. Thank you so much for speaking into existence. What is not?
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And one thing to note, because I know some people are like, okay, well, maybe the mud, you're putting so much emphasis on the suction of the mud. Maybe the mud was just after the fact. You know, the mud was deposited and it sucked them down. They just meant to put them in the water. I don't think that's the case. I think...
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
the killer put them in the water to conceal them, not just to have them in the water because it's actually worse to be in the water because it's such a small diversion canal that there's more woods than there is water. So if they're in water, because they're dead, they're going to float. If they're going to float, they're going to be found because it's a very small canal.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
We're not talking a huge body of water. you will be able to see a floating body in this small water that you could basically run across in a few large leaps, right? This is not feet and feet of water where they could drift into the middle of a lake and you can't be able to see them.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So number one, they weren't meant to be put into the water just to be put in the water because if they were killed on the banks, cover them with leaves and sticks. That would be better for purposes of concealing than putting them just in the water so they can float up.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And then potentially, because if it's not moving water, if it's stagnant, then they're just going to be standing there for people to see. And this is the place where everyone crosses, remember? So this is going to be the highest visibility area because there's the pipe bridge right there. It's harder to say, hey, I'll meet you by the third pine tree on the right.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
It's easier to say, I'll meet you by the canal or I'll meet you by the water. And so that's going to be one of the main places searchers will gather a floating body immediately discovered. Or if there's any sort of flow among this water, it'll flow and be discovered very quickly.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
If you say I'm homely, I must be homely. I see how this works.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Because, again, we're not talking about this being flowed into a bigger body of water where the bay, you know, like in Scott Peterson, the waters are going to wash away the bodies immediately. So I think the mud was by design. It was not deposited after the fact. I think they were in the mud by design of the killer. And so therefore the mud is on the killer.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And I wonder if it got mixed up in the reporting. I wonder if the sticks had to do with the clothes and sticks had nothing to do with the bodies. And one other thing I'll note, eight-year-old boys still substance to their bodies, right? Like they're not a tiny baby. They're still, what, 50-ish pounds, maybe more 50 to 60 pounds.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I think anyone, even if it were a large adult doing this, ultimately they were able to get the suction in the mud using their feet, not just their hands alone. I think there was probably feet involved. And this is important because we're going to talk about footprints, but also we're going to talk about shoes. Likely the person doing it wore shoes because this is still the woods.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
You're probably not going in there barefoot. And so I think there were shoes involved, meaning shoes probably had a lot of this mud that you would want to get rid of. Because remember, Chris and Michael, what were they doing? They were hiding their muddy clothes and shoes. Muddy clothes and shoes. That was just them playing in the woods.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
The person who was doing this intentionally likely ultimately had to use force of feet in order to gain this suction.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
This is a horrible dump site. If you're already carrying them somewhere and it's three people, you're not going to be doing it by hand. You're going to be doing it by vehicle. You're already next to the interstate. You already have three bodies in your car. Just go down the interstate a few miles. Likely what happened to Asha Degree.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Even 10 miles down the road is going to be much harder to find them. Why dump in your own backyard? Whether you're a truck driver who's passing through or someone who lives in the neighborhood, it makes no sense to kill them elsewhere and come back to the place where people will look because this is the place. It's likely, if you look at this map... They're big businesses that are open, right?
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
There's like huge, massive amounts of parking lots with no tree cover. Like it's very open, so easy to spot any boy. Not going to be there. Not going to be all these backyards. It looks like, you know, Stepford Wifish, how planned the communities are. Someone's backyard. Not there. So why would you put them in the one place that anyone would look for missing boys in this area? They only had bikes.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
They didn't have cars. So they couldn't get very far. First place you look is going to be the woods.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Okay, so a thought about the clothes. I know we've been kind of using the two dichotomous and there's obviously more potential suspects, but I think they show two different sides of the type of people you have. The passing by trucker who, you know, literally is just a passerby, not from the area. And then someone who's from the neighborhood.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So the trucker, you would think, just throw it in the back of your truck, dispose of it later. Nobody cares. Nobody knows. Very unlikely anyone's going to catch you before you're able to dump the clothes 10 miles down the road.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So why stick them into the mud, taking more time versus if you're not only in the neighborhood, but you you live somewhere that's not your own or you live somewhere or you're transitory or any you have nowhere to hide your things. That's something to think about.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So maybe you either don't have a home you regularly go to or you spend a lot of time with other people at other people's homes where there's not a good place for you to hide your things. You don't have a place that's really your own. so that if anyone came looking for you or wanted to search you or anything like that, they'd immediately find these clothes and that would be very bad for you.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So this particular fact seems to point towards someone who either knew the boys or is close to the area, is going to continue to be close to the area, that no matter how long from now, they're going to be associated with this area.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I'll make one note that cuts against the, you know, trophy or well-executed sort of, I kept the parts that I wanted. I do so much laundry. This is not an ad. So much laundry. I literally run my washing machine, I don't know, three to four times a day. That's if no child has thrown up that day. And what do I lose? Socks. Socks left and right. I cannot keep track of socks, right?
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I literally cannot do a load of laundry without losing a pair of socks.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
because they're a smaller item of clothing another small item of clothing is going to be underwear so that i do think it's worth noting that the items of clothing that are missing are the smaller items shirt and pants bigger easier to see and remember this is gonna be twilight dark at the time that this is being concealed so they may think that they have all of the socks but especially because it's a bunch of socks maybe some people have fantasies with like socks
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I don't know. To me, that's kind of stinky. Underwear, I could understand more, especially if we're talking about pedophilic behavior here. But there is also a possibility that these are just simply the smaller of the clothings, and this is done in a very short timeline, and they grab the things they can quickly and think they have everything. What happened to the other things? I truly don't know.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So it's possible they were taken, but it's also possible it's just gotten lost.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Let's dive in, especially because we finally got through the timeline and we wanted to go into more depth as we were going through the timeline, but we saved it for now where we can go topic by topic. And of course, we have to start at Robin Hood.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
two of the boys drowned but at least according to the autopsy one of them did bleed to death so you would think there would be more blood and this is really hard right because there is water here in order to wash away some of the blood the ground is saturated enough at least within the creek to have this mud that can cause this suction and so it's just hard to know how much the bank was washed or how much it is true that there was no blood an absence of blood in this area
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I think this is unfortunately lost to time. Like we can't go back and collect evidence now on what it looked like at the time. But there was also almost a day in terms of when the boys likely were killed and when they were found. So if water was washing up, I don't think it rained during this time. So that would not explain the washing away. But there is enough water at least.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
They are found around water. If someone wanted to take the effort to wash it away, they potentially could wash a good bit away.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Which tends to at least suggest that the person knew the area well enough.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
that this wasn't their first time to be able to execute all of this in moonlight or in twilight or near darkness it's easy now to look at the area say oh we'll just scoop it off with your feet and then all the debris will go away not necessarily because debris is different in different areas you could have creeping what is it called
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
The grass creeping, you know, like you have to pull it out by the roots so you can't just swoop it away by your feet. You'd have to pull it out by your hands. There's that kind of ground cover versus trees and sticks and leaves where you can just brush aside very quickly with your feet to be able to clear the area. Or so what I've been saying, feet, feet, feet.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
In addition to the feet being muddy, the fastest way I would think to be able to clear this off is not to get on your hands and knees and push it with your hands because your hands can't, you know, that's an awkward position for a bipedal human being to do, but your feet can sweep very quickly. You would think that means additional debris on the person's shoes or the people's shoes.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And also, because the reeds are bent over where their heads are in the mud, I wonder if that also indicates some dragging of the bodies there, right? Because there's some force in which it's pulling the reeds so that they are eventually bent horizontally over, so much so and pushed into the mud that their heads are then stuck into the mud.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
You can imagine that's kind of like dragging a body toward the bank, which would indicate, again, that maybe the killing was done right there before. Because if you carried the bodies in, if you had killed them elsewhere, you could just carry them. Why put them on the bank? Just throw them straight into the water.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So I think that could indicate that the bodies were killed on that bank dragged into the water rather than being brought there having been killed elsewhere. So some of the witnesses said that at least a couple of the boys had backpacks. Remember all those eyewitnesses we had in that very long timeline? Some people did say that they saw at least a couple of the boys with backpacks.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Now, if the boys or any of the boys had backpacks, They were never found. So we can't say necessarily that, like the underwear and the five socks, those are missing, potentially missing. We don't know for a fact whether they had backpacks and if they were missing or not. Moreover, if any backpacks were missing from the boys' homes, it doesn't appear that that was ever documented.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And so if somebody knows this information now, I think that would be very, very helpful and important information because obviously if their backpacks were not home, then likely they were brought with them somewhere. Maybe they left them at school or something, but you would think after the fact they would have located the backpacks if they couldn't find them.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And if they couldn't find them, that I can see as a trophy or as further concealment. Because backpacks are larger, they contain information that is very identifiable to the person who owns the backpack. So you can see that that could be something that someone would take away to try and conceal. Think again about the Asha Degree case. What did authorities find?
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
They haven't found her body, but they found her backpack. double wrapped in trash bags buried in the ground because if someone found that backpack they would know it was asia degrees it's very identifiable piece of clothing piece of material for anyone to have but like we said what is missing are two pairs of underwear and five socks So where did they go?
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
It's possible, we've already said they could have floated away, but we're not talking about a big river that goes into the ocean. This creek basically goes to like a parking lot, right? And then the diversion creek is seen across. So it's possible that it floated away, but not incredibly likely.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Obviously, the sticks didn't hold all the clothes down, as some of the items of clothing were found floating in the water. Makes sense. Loose clothing can be hard to keep them all together. So it's possible that these socks and underwear did float away. But if they did float away, they made it far enough down the bayou that police didn't find them.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And once, obviously, the boys were found in the water, this was a crime scene. So they were certainly looking in the water for any type of evidence, and it wasn't found. Possible that critters got them... Maybe a snapping turtle ate an entire underwear. I don't know. I do think it's interesting that this underwear and the socks are missing. But who knows?
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Could be buried away somewhere right now and someone walks by and finds a sock thinking nothing of it. And it was one of the five socks.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Yeah, I mean, like you said, this is speculation at this point, but especially with the three boys missing each other, finding each other, skateboards on the side of the road, this didn't seem like some well-planned-out, like, this is the day, we're gonna run away because we're tired of being told that we can't play after 4.30, etc.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
It seemed like these three particular boys were together at this particular time. As opposed to a fourth boy or just two of them because one of them was missed and stayed at their house to watch a TV show. The fact that these three boys happened at this time seemed to be a terrible coincidence rather than the three of them all planned to meet at this exact time to even go play.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
They did play a lot together, but I just truly think this was also spontaneous like many of their days were.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
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The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Give your skin the scientifically proven gentle care it deserves with One Skin. Okay, let's talk about luminol tests. So, of course, those of you who follow these types of cases, luminol can test for the presence of blood even if it was cleaned up.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And we've already talked about how there was no obvious blood at the scene of the crimes, though given the injuries of the boys, there had to have been a lot of it, at least for the one boy who did bleed out. The police applied luminol to the area and it lit up in eight spots. I will say I've typically only seen luminol applied to like not nature, to like a car or to an apartment or a bathroom.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I don't know that I've personally ever looked at a case where luminol was applied to the outside, like the woods, and how effective that would be versus say a bathroom.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Yeah. But there could be certainly something mixed in, right? There could be. This is not as a sterile environment as, say, a bathroom that looks clean. And then you apply the luminol and all of a sudden you see the blood spatter over here and then like a dragging mark on the ground. This is not that situation. We are still in the outdoors.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So the police, when they apply the luminol to this whole kind of bank area, they saw it light up in three spots. Three of them were connected to the stream and where the bodies were laid after they were pulled from the water. That's the part Brett was saying that this is likely that the luminol is reacting correctly because we know for a fact where the police laid the bodies.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And so that it did light up where they were on the bank. Now, three others were transfers and two other spots were on the scuffed off part of the bank. Remember where the reeds were kind of bent over with their heads in the mud? It looked like someone had brushed off that whole area. Now, these were believed to be the points of attack. because of the pattern of where the luminol lit up.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Whereas, of course, where the boys were laid on the bank after they were pulled out of the water, those were not the points of attack. We understand why they would have lit up because we know that their bodies were ultimately placed there.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And another point that going back to something we said, the fact that two of the boys drowned, I think also points to this being the point of the attack and ultimately where they died. Because if you were going to do the risky thing of transferring them elsewhere, you want to make sure that they're completely dead before transferring them. Because what if they wake up?
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
What if they kick out taillights or something like that and are able to make some noise as you're transferring them to the dump site? So the fact that two of the boys drowned, I think also, to me, points to the fact that not a lot of time was between the point of attack and the dumping into the water. And so, likely, it all happened right there. And then there's the weather that day. So...
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
The weather that day was a high of 73 and a low of 59. As we know, it had been raining the four days prior, and because of that rain for four days, it swelled that 10-mile bayou and the creek where the boys were found so that there was, in fact, water. And eventually, when there was no water, that creek was going to dry out, but not on this day because of the four days of rain.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Now, on the 6th, the day the boys were found, the temperature rose all the way to 82, so quite hot. A few things to note. When it rains and when it's warm outside, and this is relatively warm. It's dropping down to 59 at night, but not really cool, I would say. It's going to be muggy, and you're going to have a lot of mosquitoes, obviously, with the wet moisture heat environment.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And I think that's a great point here, Brett, because, you know, whenever you hear Robin Hood Woods, you think, oh, this is within the woods. We have many cases that we've covered that have been, quite frankly, in the wilderness. And we've said before that when you're in the wilderness because of the wild brush and untraversed terrain, it can be very difficult to come across the wild.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
say, missing bodies, for example. Here, while they are woods in the sense that it's a wooded area, when you look at the aerial view of the map, you really begin to see how it's in the midst of an incredibly busy, urban is not the right, business and residential area. This is not a private woods far from any sort of civilization.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I'm actually glad that we get to devote an entire episode to the autopsy because I thought it was a little ambitious when you said at the beginning we would cover it all. But I think the discussion we've had today, as you can see, we promised. We promised anything that you thought we were not spending enough time on the timeline, we were going to dive in deep.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And that's what we've hoped to do here. The thing that continues to come back to me that is so frustrating, as you've seen as we've discussed these elements of this case, is that there's so much unknown. And it is going to continue to be unknown at the very end of this. And I mean, we're on this ride with you guys.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
At the very end of this, there's not going to be one theory that ties it all together because of all these question marks and these blanks in history now that no longer exist unless someone has this information that has not yet been unearthed. And that is frustrating, but we're doing the best we can in trying to connect the dots within a picture that we see.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
But kind of like that backpack scenario, there are missing blanks in this story where if we knew what it was, it could completely change the entire narrative. I don't know that we'll find any of them here. Maybe some of you have it. And for some reason, this is just not out there yet. But like Brett said, we want to understand the truth. We want to know for the sake of these three boys.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
ultimately this is about them because what has happened is is horrific and it is not a game it is not a game to their family it is not a game to their loved ones it is not some sort of cause whether it's wrongful conviction or not this is about them and what happened to them and our attempt to go through the timeline and the details is to try and understand what ultimately happened here
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
This is actually like if you plopped a little bit of greenery within... developed area, which makes this a very unique situation rather than the woods.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
After this, I'm going to go read some more about it, right? Yeah, exactly. This is truly consuming my every being.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Let's do it. We need a question after these heavy episodes.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Okay. Let's see. When we're on episode 1058 of West Memphis 3.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And he's not giving himself enough credit. There was absolutely a world where this guy would not have been caught. It was like dead end. You know, there was it was not obvious who it was going to be. And so this is where having the right prosecutor in the right seat works because the right guy was caught and he did not need to be walking the streets, setting off bombs at public buildings.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So thanks for your service, Brett. OK, I'm not going to answer the question directly because most of my craziest cases were all top secret and I'm not allowed to talk about them. So I won't talk about them, but I will talk about an experience that Brett was in the room for, which was hilarious. So we're in this like skiff room, you know, and it's a top secret briefing.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And it was very serious, like, you know, briefing on international terrorism. And it had to do with three letter cases.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
agencies out there who do counterterrorism and we are like taking notes I'm like holy cow like I don't like it when my eyes are open to all the scary things in the world that I don't know about like this is I'm supposed to keep this professional but this is one of those situations where it was just like wow I don't like seeing how
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
The world is really basically held together by scotch tape, but for some brave men and women in places who just barely hold back the tide of terrorism. And then it was a long meeting. And it was with multi-offices. We were on secured lines, leave phones outside, that whole thing. And I'm thinking, what can we do to stop this? What is our role in it? And it was me and Brett.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And then we get up and like... I'm like, hey, I'm going to have to call D.C. I'm going to have to call some superiors. We're going to have to like coordinate multiple jurisdictions. It's going to be like kind of a headache. We get back to our office and I'm like starting to map out who all I need to call in order to like get the trains moving on, you know, making America safe.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And I get a call from one of the agents who we were in the room with. And I was like, oh my gosh, like something just happened. We've just been in this like hours long briefing. What more could he possibly have to say? Like, do we have to run back over? And he's, hey, there's something I have to tell you. And I was like, okay, like what happened?
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Did the really scary thing we were afraid was going to happen just happen? Like, should we call the alarm? Like, you know, should we deploy all of the nuclear missiles? And he was like, so we had a new person in the room for the briefing today. You may have noticed this person. And I was like, yeah, yeah, they were new. It happens. I assume they had the right clearance.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Are you about to tell me they're part of the like international terror organization? And the agent was like, wow, when you guys left, this person was like, those people sound just like Brett and Alice from The Prosecutors, this podcast I listen to.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
here i am thinking like oh my gosh like the world is gonna crash down we need to get the nuclear codes and he's so i was like i'm about to blow your mind Yeah, I remember that. Which just goes to show you that even in serious situations, all those people with the one-star reviews were like, they laugh too much about, you know, murder and mayhem. In life, if you don't laugh, you will die.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So find points in which you can laugh. It doesn't mean you're laughing at the situation, but that was a situation where a little bit of laughter was kind of nice in that particular instance.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And this was years ago, so we were still kind of small.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And there were a random person put in a room with us, right?
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And then you just kind of nod because you're like, am I going to be that weirdo who's like, I'm the podcaster. They're like, that's not what I was thinking at all.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Oh, it's so nice, y'all. I'm very glad to be here with you guys.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Another year. I don't know. This one, this might take me down.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
It really is downhill from 25. That's all I got from there. You're right. It's all downhill, except I'm very happy to be here with you guys because you look younger and more beautiful every year. So I'm slowly falling apart today, but thank you.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
i didn't even notice that oh i honestly didn't notice that so sweet well i did anyways okay well we should post that video at some point because we should it was funny i mean well and also one other thing like oh well actually i'll plug their new podcast ryan buffet exorcist files we had him on before great series you should listen to it scares the bejesus out of me
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
He just launched a new podcast with Abigail Robertson called Earth Meets Heaven. Pretty sure that's right. Anyways, I saw a picture of it like launched this week and it had like, they already had like special wood carved signs of their podcast and like they had a studio and I was like, you should post that video. Exactly.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
You should post that video of our first recording because nothing has changed in terms of our surroundings of that. We don't even have like official signs. Everything we own that says the prosecutors, y'all have made for us at Crime Talk. And we appreciate it so much, but we haven't done it ourselves. And so you should check out that podcast, by the way.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
It's still horribly amateur. Horribly amateur. But somehow you guys put up with it and keep listening.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
It's so true. Sorry, I'm looking up the actual name because I'm... Okay, it's called Heaven Meets Earth. There's one episode so far. And if you remember Ryan Bethea and all the Exorcist files, those are all true stories of like... demonic possessions. This is the flip side, happy side.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So if you're looking for something not scary, it's the miracles that happen here on Earth without the demonic side. Of course, oh, the first one's true crime related. Anyways, I plug it because I listened to the first one and it was awesome. And we always love when our guests go on to do other things.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Wait, real quick on sparkling water. This is after dark. Have you tried the new coconut water that's sparkling? Wow. No, I have not. It is so good. There's a couple kinds, but I don't know. The coconut water is pink. I don't know why. I thought coconut juice was just white or clear or murky, but it's pink and it's amazing. Like cold, it tastes like a fantastic, you know, coconut delight.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Anyways, that's probably what I'll go get. Spicy coconut water. You got it.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Oh, Joe, happy birthday. Well, happy birthday, Joe, even if it's not yours.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Way to go. Congratulations for maybe having lower insurance this year.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
You know, when I'm 150 years old. There you go. There you go.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Kids are feral. Sorry, I'm checking my volumes because kids were playing with my stuff. We had like 50 people here. And hold on. And they came into this closet and made it their clubhouse. It was feral, y'all. There were lollipops stuck to the ceiling. Like, licked and stuck to the ceiling. And I was like, what happened in here? And there were, like, gummies just, like, smashed into the pillows.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And I was like, guys, did you just lose your minds with all that candy?
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
So as Brett said, these boys regularly played in the woods and they weren't the only ones. A lot of neighborhood kids did the same thing, even though these boys were told by their parents not to play in the woods.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Kind of like what Brett said, he doesn't want his kids playing in the woods that he played in as a young kid because they're bugs, they're snakes, they're snapping turtles, they could fall in the water. You know, a number of things can happen in there. It's just not, say, someone's backyard. And so despite these kind of exhortations not to go play there, Who can resist the woods and water?
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
It seems like every kid's dream and adventure. Cortez Hollins, he's a friend with Michael, said that Michael had actually taken him into Robin Hood at some point. And Cortez said they'd rode their bikes in and they came upon some teenagers in the woods.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
And apparently these teenagers knocked the boys off their bikes and told them that they would throw them in the water and let the snakes and alligators eat them up. Now, whether that really happened or not, you can see why this would be of interest, right?
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
The boys did end up in water and it kind of feeds on the fears, I would say, of the adults of don't go in there because you don't know who you're going to see in there. It's near a truck stop. It's near an interstate. So there could be dangers from people who are not of the most savory character. There could be different animals and predators in the water.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
I don't know about alligators per se here, but snapping turtles can also do a lot of damage. And just the fact that there's water, right? Whenever there's water, there could be some danger. And so Cortez recounts this story now, but it sounds like it was kind of the one time that Michael took him in rather than this was his regular activity of going in.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Now, a few weeks before the murders, Michael Moore's mom, Dana, had found muddy clothes and shoes hidden under his bed. Remember, Michael had been told by his mom, Dana, don't go in the woods, do not play in the woods. So, of course, when Dana finds these muddy clothes and shoes hidden under his bed, what does she think? Well, she's like, Michael, I told you not to go in the woods, but...
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Of course, I'm pretty sure you've gone in the woods, you've gone into Robin Hood woods, and you're playing in there. Isn't that what happened? And I don't think Michael ever said that he did go in there, but you can imagine that that's what Dana thought she was doing. And if he had gotten muddy some other place, like he slipped in mud on the way to school, why hide it?
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
You know, people fall, it's okay. But if you're getting caught for being muddy because you went somewhere where your mom told you not to, that makes a little bit more sense as to why you would hide your clothes. Now, Melissa Byers had also noticed that Christopher would disappear for hours at a time. And she also wondered if it was because he was going into the woods with Michael.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
On occasion, she would notice that Chris was also muddy when he'd come home. And when Melissa asked him if he was playing in Robin Hood, he said, nope, I wasn't. He said instead he was playing with George. Now, Melissa had no idea who this George was, and I don't think we know who this George is. Could have also been a childhood lie. I was not in Robin Hood Woods. Of course not. I was with George.
The Prosecutors
308. The West Memphis 3 Part 9
Because if he said Michael, maybe, you know, the moms would put it two and two together and say, both of you guys have been muddy. Both of you have been gone for hours at a time. You're probably in the woods. But if you blame it on George, some third party who's maybe not even real, it might be easier to get away with things.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Now, unbeknownst to her family, at the time, later that same day, Diane was spotted at the Hayloft Tavern, which is, as you can imagine, a bar. Now, the bartender recalls later on to the police that Diane had come into the bar and he had served her alcohol, but he eventually cuts her off because he thinks that she's drunk. She's walking around in circles and he just assumes that she's over-served.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
So as a good bartender, as this is duty, he's like, I'm not going to serve you anymore. Because of what we know about Diane, it's possible she was drunk, but it's also possible that this had something to do with mental illness rather than consumption of alcohol. But whatever it was, she was doing something that was odd to the bartender, walking in circles.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Now, what's most notable about this is that the Hayloft Tavern is not walking distance from Deborah's home. So Diane would have had to get a ride to get to the Hayloft, but Diane herself doesn't have a car that she could use, and she did not use her own car to go to the Hayloft Tavern.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And another thing to note is we don't know if she was walking in circles because she was over-served, but she was probably in some sort of state if she left and was hitchhiking, right? Something that was kind of out of the ordinary for her.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And so if she's in a state where she's like walking in circles, acting kind of concerning, she may have been acting that way to whoever picked her up or whoever came in contact with her, that they knew something was probably wrong with her and that she was vulnerable, manipulatable. They could have been a complete guardian angel and just took her where she wanted to go and left.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Or they could have noticed the state she was in, stayed around. maybe stayed close by, maybe waited outside. But I will go out to say that whatever she was doing that day, it was probably obvious to those who were watching her that she was not okay.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And this is particularly haunting because we're not getting this call the day that she leaves Debra's house. This is like several days later. So what was happening in the interim? Had she been with this person this whole time? Or had she managed to be okay but on her own, maybe wandering about for several days and then – Finally, on day four or so, she is accosted by someone meaning her ill will.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
It's also, you know, mind boggling what's exactly happening here. And she was of the frame of mind to call her mother, which was good. But how did she have access to call her mother? I don't think there were cell phones then.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
It was not a cell phone.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
There were cell phones.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Okay, so we have this seemingly distressed call. Is it real distress or is it in her mind? We don't know. But what we do know next is tangible. So April 15th, 1998. At around 4 p.m., a woman is walking to work along Highway 19 when she makes kind of a strange discovery. While she's walking, she comes across what she believes to be a fake human finger on the side of the highway.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And she continues past it without reporting it, without really stopping to pick it up or anything like that. She just assumes it's a toy or something. But this incident sticks with her. It's still on her mind. And so when she sees her boyfriend, she tells her boyfriend what she saw. And, you know, she's kind of recounting this later that night.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
She's like, you know, I was walking to work and I saw this like toy finger, kind of weird on the side of the road. But the boyfriend thought there might be something more sinister at play here. And he decided to check it out for himself. That's interesting to me. I know what the feeling is of like seeing something strange and just like letting it go.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And I often just assume it's something not nefarious. First of all, I don't often walk on the sides of highways. So, yeah.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
that's number one that's a little dangerous but you can imagine you know especially kind of these more country highways there's usually just two lanes and then you'll see all manners of things on the side of the road but i usually do not stop and check to make sure it's like what's in a bag or anything like that i don't want to be the one who finds any sort of criminal affects but i
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Her boyfriend can't let this go. So the next day, April 16th, 1998, he goes out to the location on Highway 19 where his girlfriend had been walking. And just as the girlfriend described, there is what appears to be a human finger lying on the side of the road. And the boyfriend... Is looking at this like this is not a toy. So he calls the police to report that he's found a finger.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
The Pasco County Sheriff's Department arrive on scene shortly following this report. And due to some discrepancies in the description of the finger given by the man and his girlfriend. Initially, the police thought they were looking for two fingers, but really it was that a finger was seen the day before the boyfriend came back the next day to look for the finger. So there was just one finger.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And after searching the area, the police only found one finger. Now, what did this finger look like? It was the top third of the right middle finger. And the nail on this finger had been painted with red or coral nail polish, which Police collected this human finger and they compared it to Diane's fingerprints, which they did have on file. Because remember, she did have a bit of a criminal record.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And unfortunately, this was a match. That was Diane's right middle finger. Police were not able to determine if this was the result of an accident or foul play. And the actual state of the finger was never revealed. So we don't know if it was clean cut, for example, or if it was jagged, or if it was an animal that bit it off. There's lots of ways that a finger can be separated from your hand.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
You can imagine a slice, like an axe, would leave a very different mark than an animal having gnawed off a finger, for example. All we know is that the top third of a finger is found. Now, after finding this finger, the police, I mean, they really do jump into action. They send out a helicopter search of the area where the finger was found, hoping, you know, to find something else.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
But nothing else related to Diane Augitt was ever located. Not another finger, not a hand, not another body part, none of her affects, belongings, clothing in this area.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
But going back the next day definitely sticks out to me. Like, yeah, I don't know, especially if it wasn't me who initially saw it. I'm not sure I would go back to see it because the girlfriend who is telling the story clearly herself didn't think so much of it that she went back. Right. So it's one thing to say I definitely saw a human finger. I'm freaking out. I'm going to go call the police.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And then the boyfriend backing her up and being like, okay, you're going to be okay. Let's go see what's going on. In fact, the story was probably told in a way like, I saw something weird today. It was probably just a toy. And then to not have seen it and have it relayed to you as it's probably a toy to then go through the effort of walking down the highway to find it.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
That definitely struck me as incredibly weird.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Can I just say this community is on top of it because you're thinking 30 minutes away, what is happening? So Diane actually lived in Odessa when she was living on her own. But remember at this time, because she was kind of still in a vulnerable state, she was living in Hudson with her sister 30 minutes away.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
So the manager, Patricia Splendorio, was checking an outdoor freezer of the convenience store when she made an interesting discovery. I know what you're thinking. Another finger? That's exactly what I thought when I first looked into this case. I was like, oh, no. We're going to find more, you know, digits in a freezer. No, no, no. Actually, if possible, even stranger.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Let's tell the story. So Diane Young was born on February 21st, 1958 in New York. But despite being raised in New York, she and her entire family relocated to Florida, where she would spend the rest of her life. In the late 1970s, Diane married Frederick Auget, and the two seemed to have a really happy marriage in the beginning. They had three children together.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
A laundry bag filled with neatly folded clothing. Freezers are not typically where you put neatly folded clothing. So I'll just go out there and say that. And also the fact that it's neatly folded rather than say in disarray is also another interesting thing. So the manager was familiar with Diane because Diane actually went to this convenience store a good bit when she lived at home in Odessa.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And I mean, literally bless Patricia for even thinking about Diane. She hadn't seen her in a while, may not even have known this was an issue, but sees this bag of neatly folded laundry and immediately thinks this is something that Diane would do.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
So when she finds the bag of laundry, she thinks of Diane and calls Diane's sister, Deborah, to let her know just in case something has happened or this is out of the ordinary. Maybe something is wrong with Diane. Deborah goes down to this convenience store and she's able to confirm that the clothing in that laundry bag was in fact Diane's.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And she knew this because Deborah had purchased some of the items in that bag for Diane. Sisters are great, by the way. I can't imagine. I grew up with brothers. I can't imagine I would be missing. I've thought about this. I've even asked my brothers this. I was like, if I went missing today, what was I wearing? 100% of the time, they cannot remember. Thank goodness for sisters.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Debra's like, no, these are Diane's clothes. I know it for a fact. Now, the police were informed of this discovery, but it doesn't appear that they're able to determine when the clothing was put there or by whom. If you know Diane, sometimes she does strange things.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And because Patricia said that she last checked this outdoor freezer three weeks prior to her discovering these clothes, it's possible that these clothes could have been in there as long as three weeks ago. Could have been in there for one hour, could have been three weeks. And if it was three weeks, then that would be before Diane even went missing.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
She, remember, was on involuntary hold, probably doing some strange things before she was committed involuntarily. Absolutely possible that she did something like leave her clean laundry in a freezer at the convenience store when she went there to stop and get a bottle of water or something.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Someone's going to find them eventually.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And as far as we know, I don't think we know that she left with this bag of laundry from Debra's home. Like the fact that it's folded, right? She's been missing for several days at this point. So if it were in that freezer, in the time that she was missing, she probably went to a laundromat, had the wherewithal to do the laundry, fold it.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Diane stayed at home taking care of the kids. And by all accounts, Diane loved being a mom. She enjoyed caring for her children and keeping a tidy home. And she enjoyed being the stay-at-home mom. She also loved being outside, camping and fishing. All very kind of happy, healthy people. types of hobbies.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And then have it in its still good folded state in the freezer. Like all of this is very strange. This is not happening in a manner of like 24 hours. This is happening over a course of days, which if you are removed from a safe, stable place with access to your medications, you would think that if she's already in a mentally fragile state, she is deteriorating without that support system.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
So like four or five days removed from being at Debra's home, you would think her mental state is only getting more and more weak.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
yeah because april 13th is what two three days after she's missing like where did the money come from eating lunch seems like a very regular thing to do that you would need kind of money and the ability to order but you would think maybe two or three days removed from a safe stable situation you're not quite in the situation where you can sit down and order food even the april 11th
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
I completely can see Diane on this highway, but note that the finger isn't found until like four days later. So if at that time, and it's possible she's been roaming this highway for days, but that's the only sighting of her on that. So you would think that people typically drive on the same roads over and over.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
So if you see the same woman, I see the same woman actually, who does not appear to have home, walk on the highway on my way to drop off my kid every single day. I know exactly when she is because I actually watch out for the intersection she's always walking past because she doesn't look at the lights ready to slow down when I see her. So I notice that she walks there every day.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
We have the one sighting on April 11th, but the finger found four days later. And this is...
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
springtime so it's relatively warm meaning there are scavengers out so if she were on that road on april 11th and didn't go back another time you would think that the finger ended up there on april 11th and was there for four days relatively undisturbed i'm not saying it's not decomposed because we don't know the state of the finger but that an animal didn't come by and grab it
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Funny story, I'm terrified of all corpses. There was a dead chick monk on my porch and I looked out my window because I heard it hit my window and it just like kaput. It was done. And I was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to have to clean up this chick monk before my kids like go out there because they're definitely going to try to make it a pet. And I went to go get a trash bag.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And by the time I came back, a hawk had taken away like minutes, right? Like the hawk had taken this chipmunk away. I would expect something like that to have happened if the finger were there for four days.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
But in 1988, shortly after turning 30, Diane's life took a turn for the worse when she was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. That same year, unfortunately, her children were removed from her home over allegations of child abuse.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Fast forward, November 25th, 2000. The police did another media blitz on Diane. And shortly thereafter, on November 25th, at around 4 p.m., a woman named Terry Wilson walked into a Circle K convenience store in Hudson, Florida. Remember, Hudson is where Debra lives. While there, Terry noticed this clear Ziploc bag laying on the lottery counter that was filled with cosmetics and toiletries.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
We're talking a year and a half later. Now Terry picks up this Ziploc bag and she noticed a name written in black Sharpie on the front, Diane. Coincidentally, Terry happened to be dating Diane's brother. And so because of that connection, when she saw Diane written on this cosmetic or the plastic bag with cosmetics in it, she immediately thinks of Diane Augitt.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And so Mildred, Diane's mom comes to look at this bag. And she confirms that they're exactly the type of makeup that Diane wore. Black eyeliner, taboo perfume, and bright pink lipstick. More interestingly, there was a generic brand of toothpaste in the bag that was the same brand that the mental health institution Diane was at before her disappearance gave to patients. Okay, this is beyond weird.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
This is not the next day after she's missing or the week after or the month after. We're talking a year and a half after she goes missing. There is this bag, which if it's just sitting on the lottery counter, the thought is someone came in with this bag and left it behind by accident, right? While they were shopping. Like this is their purse or their method of carrying their things.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And they put it down to get a pack of gum or a pack of cigarettes and they walked out without it. And you would think it was recently put there because the convenience store typically cleans up or someone would have picked it up at some point to take it. Just be like, oh, cool. Free bag of stuff. And the other thing is it's a Ziploc bag.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And even though Diane had been accused of having Munchausen syndrome by proxy, which is now known as factitious disorder imposed on another, or FDIA, these claims would ultimately be proved untrue. But by the time they were proved to be untrue, it was too late. Diane's children had already been removed.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
So if it were from a year and a half ago, you would think it's pretty tattered or wouldn't work anymore. And probably hasn't been sitting on that counter for a year and a half. All to lead to is that bag probably was put there right before it was discovered or soon before it was discovered.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And I would have said it was wishful thinking had it not been for that generic toothpaste, because that toothpaste is really strange. Everything else, maybe, maybe someone else also has the taboo perfume and had the black eyeliner and you're just trying, you miss your daughter and you're trying to grasp and say, yeah, this is Diane's stuff.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
But that generic toothpaste that was from the place where she would have been is really interesting.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And anyone who has been a mother, certainly one who was their full-time caregiver, you can imagine that even without a bipolar diagnosis, her mental health was really deteriorating, really suffering, probably in no small part due to being separated from her children.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
It's kind of like, but completely not like, Asha Degree's backpack being wrapped in plastic found many years later, except this is put there to be found. Right. And the most like rational thing is that Diane was holding it. She put it down, except that no one has seen Diane. And Diane probably is not OK a year and a half later, which makes me think that someone has this from back in the day.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And part of the reason I think that is toothpaste. Of course, you may not be brushing your teeth every day if you're in the midst of like a mental episode. But toothpaste doesn't typically last you for a year and a half. I'm thinking about like a travel toothpaste, right? Like a little small guy that maybe if you used it every day for a week, that'd be it.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And we're talking about a year and a half later, which leads me to believe that we have no record of her going back to that mental health institution. They would know if she went back. And so that tube, if it belongs to Diane, would have come from a year and a half earlier, suggesting that this bag may not have been used or touched since she disappeared.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
So despite this seemingly hopeful lead, yet again, nothing. And so this brings us to the early morning hours of July 27th, 2001. Stay with me here. This may seem completely unrelated. Two masked men barge into the Coral Sands Motel just off Highway 19 in Hudson, Florida. They're looking to rob the place. The motel was co-owned by a man named Gary Evers and his girlfriend, Rose Casper.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
When the men come in to rob the motel, they start beating Rose and Rose starts screaming for Gary. Gary hears her, runs into the office where the robbery is occurring, but the two men run off when he comes in.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
I think it's because it like offends somebody.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
They don't like him. Munchausen?
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
So with such a blatant murder, the next day on July 29th, 2001, Gary's arrested and he's charged with first degree murder. Once in custody, the police called Debra to let her know that they've arrested a man named Gary Evers. And you're thinking, what does this have to do with Diane?
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
While the Coral Sands Motel was one of the last known places Diane had been, additionally, it was only a block from where her fingertip was found. And according to Debra, she says that the police told her that Gary has been a suspect in Diane's disappearance since the very beginning of the investigation.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
But because this is an ongoing investigation, the police have never confirmed that Gary is a suspect. This just comes from Debra. We have no reason not to... Believe her, because why would she be getting a call about a random first degree murder charge? Unfortunately, in the 20 years since this discovery, there's been no further updates in Diane's case at all. We have a fingertip.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
We have a Ziploc bag with a couple cosmetics that Diane is known to use and a toothpaste from a mental institution she had been at. And that's basically it.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
I don't even know if I said it right. I mean, I guess it's more descriptive. Maybe someone got mad and was like, Munchausen is a person. I don't know. It's not descriptive enough. And someone was like, what if we say a word no one understands? And it's imposed on another. Got it. We're going to call it that. And then we're going to shorten it so nobody knows what it means.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Yeah, absolutely. And unfortunately, like you said, since he's dead, I don't know that we'll get more answers unless the police speak up. And that would be helpful here because we should know if we're still looking for someone or not, right? Now, another theory is that this...
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
is possible that Diane's case is one of a string of disappearances and murders over a seven-year span in an area where a serial killer was on the loose. So according to research, four other women disappeared from bars in the Tampa area from 1995 to 2002. They are Kathy A. Struckhoff, Kimberly Lang Lois Wilson, Rhonda Ann Brown, and Kathleen Marie Wanda Saga.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
So law enforcement have never confirmed a connection between these cases and Diane's. But when you look at these women, you can't help but notice that they do have some remarkable similarities. They're all women who are between about 33 and 40 years old. They're about the same height, about the same weight. They all kind of look alike.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And we know that they all previously suffered from alcoholism or substance abuse, so some sort of addiction. And they also had varying degrees of distance from their loved ones, all things that lead someone to be vulnerable. When you're distant from loved ones, not as many people checking in from you. So it's very possible that these are just vulnerable women.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And there are a lot of bad people out there and people take advantage of vulnerable people. But you also have to think, is it possible that you can make someone disappear with just a fingertip left behind and with no trace, because you've done this before, that you're able to get away with it?
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
So other than the fact that there may be some other women like this, we just don't have enough to know whether Diane was the victim of a serial killer.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Isn't it Lou Gehrig's? I don't know if they do.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Oh, that's right. It is ALS.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
It is the same thing.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And so this case has been pending for a very long time. And you'll see that because she was known in this area, I really do. I give kudos to this area, you know, the convenience store lady back in Odessa. If they had nothing to do with it, the girlfriend or boyfriend who found the finger, you know, if they hadn't found that finger, we would have absolutely no indication of that Diane was there.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
But that finger, I think, probably gives us a clue that she met with some ill will at some point. But will this case ever be solved after so many years? So I do think there's hope that this case can be solved. There's potentially more evidence out there. I think the police know more. Maybe they're waiting to connect the dots.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Maybe they have their eyes on someone else and they just don't have enough to move on so they don't want to jeopardize it. I don't know what it is. But if Diane's out there, alive or dead, there's a body, right? If she's dead, there's still a possibility that she can be found. And if you find a body, you can just find out a lot more about what caused their death, maybe what happened there.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Did she die 23 years ago or did she live in that homeless population for the last 20 years and died from natural causes more recently? But there's also hope that someone knows something and will provide a tip that will lead investigators to crack the case. Like, why is Gary Evers on the suspect list? He has a girlfriend. He co-owns that motel with someone.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Is someone else there a potential suspect? Does someone know something that led the police to put him on that suspect list? What we do know is if you know anything, please reach out to law enforcement. Diane Oggett is a Caucasian female with dark blonde hair and blue eyes. And she may have used the last name Oggett or she may have used her maiden name Young.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Her fingernails were painted coral colored at the time of her disappearance and her ears are pierced. She has a scar on her abdomen and she has tattoos on her back and right shoulder. If Diane were still alive today, she would be 66 years old. If you have any information regarding Diane's case, please contact the Pasco County Sheriff's Office at 800-854-2862. That's 800-854-2862.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
These are always hard because Diane's case sounds like many of the ones we've heard, but Diane did have things that a lot of missing people who are struggling with mental health don't have. It sounds like she'd had a really supportive community. convenience store people who knew her enough to want to help out.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
A sister she could stay with when she was in a vulnerable state after being released from involuntary institutionalizing. A mother who seemed to be involved in her life. A brother and a brother's girlfriend who... thought enough about her that, you know, a year and a half later was like, wait a second, is this Diane's bag?
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
I mean, truly, it's heartbreaking because it doesn't seem like she was isolated. And it shows you how mental illness can make anyone so incredibly vulnerable, even when you have a strong support system around you. Just to say that if you're struggling with something like this, it's not your fault. If you know someone like this, it's one of the most helpless feelings you can ever have.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Wanting to help them, wanting them to be able to be extended in their involuntary stay, but there's no legal basis to keep them in there. and being in a position where you know you can't do more to help and you just pray that they don't end up like Diane. All I can say is, you know, the rest of the community, hopefully we can all step up together and watch out for each other.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Be that person who calls, you know, Deborah when you find a bag of clothes. Those were her clothes. Be the person who is on the lookout for the vulnerable in our communities and try to be that safety net for them. Because you may not know their whole story. Diane wasn't this like isolated, abandoned person. She was a mother to three children. She was in a happy marriage.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
He seems to have a great family around her. And yet this can still happen to her, which I think shows you that it can happen to anybody.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
You know, we can give you space to sing if that's what you need.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Do we need to start recording again?
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Oh. We went to the homecoming parade tonight. It was really cute.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Yeah. It's like, it felt so like Friday Night Lights, like the show. It was so sweet. You know, because I haven't been to one. Like, you know, it's like high school football. So it's like very unproduced, which is good.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
by the way this is something that is very common in people who suffer from mental health and also those that we see struggling with mental health addiction and the criminal justice system it's unfortunately a vicious cycle you can imagine that it's hard for me to remember to take my daily vitamins much less maybe a drug that can keep me stable and when you're talking about mental health drugs it's not like taking a tylenol where you know the tylenol is going to
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
kick in about 30 minutes after you've taken it and it's going to last from what, four to six hours? And then it wears off. That's not how mental health bipolar medication works. It's a delicate dance. If you're off balance or you mess up your dosage or miss a dosage and jump back on,
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
it can mess up the entire chemical balance and that drug doesn't work as it did originally or previously, or no fault of your own, even taking the drug on time at the prescribed dosage, sometimes your body just changes. The chemical balance changes and the drug no longer has the effect. And you can imagine that these drugs also don't make you feel great.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
A lot of people who actually have been caught up in the criminal justice system say that to the judge in our courtroom. They'll say things like, well, I stopped taking it because it made me feel... gray, like the world lost all meaning. So even though when I'm off it, life is more difficult, at least I can feel I can be human. And we hear that a lot.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And it's, it's very heartbreaking because, you know, that's, that's very, I can, I can sympathize with that. And so wanting to be off of it, thinking you have control over it. And really, it's compounding. So you think, well, things are really bad. Let me just take a little bit of this alcohol. Then how much did I have? I can't remember.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
And it quickly spirals into this vicious, vicious cycle, leading from a vulnerable person who's suffering from mental health issues to even more vulnerable when you insert not only drugs that are taken, both illicit and prescribed, but erroneously, with addiction, with drugs.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Oh, good word, especially for this case.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
That's a very good Halloween word. And that is a perfect descriptor for this case. You think a fingernail with nail polish on it is ethereal or creepy. That's not the only strange fact in this case, when you disappear with nothing but a finger left behind. I mean, that's, that's the stuff of nightmares.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
All right, let's dive into the timeline. So we are in April of 1998, specifically April 10th. And if you listen to all those involuntary holds, 30 involuntary holds over the last 10 years, that's averaging like three a year. That's a lot. That's a lot, a lot. Of course, involuntary holds can be short, long, you know, depending on your condition, but Brett's exactly right. You're not like...
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
in a good place, even when you're released, because it is an involuntary hold. I have seen people get released from involuntary hold where I'm like, really? You're going to let them go? It's truly getting someone stabilized, not thriving, just stabilized enough. Usually that means that they've come out of, say, some sort of episode, but not necessarily able to take care of themselves.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
So even though she's recently been released from an involuntary hold, don't mistake that with having gone through, say, a sobering treatment program, for example, that walks you through the steps and gives you coping mechanisms and gives you, you know, like a halfway house so that you're ready to then thrive. This is truly a situation where like we don't have enough to hold you involuntarily.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
So we're letting you go. And so Diane goes to be with her sister, Deborah, in Hudson, Florida. Now, Diane had been staying with Deborah for her own safety since, as we just noted, she'd just gotten released from involuntary hold at a mental health facility two weeks prior. Didn't mean she was thriving. She still needed some help. And so she wasn't living by herself.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Now, Deborah, of course, has her own life, and so she leaves for a doctor appointment, fully expecting that Diane is going to be at her home when she returns from that doctor's appointment. But when Deborah gets back just a little while later that day, Diane is nowhere to be found.
The Prosecutors
278. The Disappearance of Diane Augat -- Third Finger, Left Hand
Initially, Deborah doesn't want to jump to any conclusions because this is not the first time that Diane had left briefly without telling anyone where she was going. So, Debra decided not to overreact, and she just kind of wrote it off at first, waiting for Diane to come home.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And so remember Ella, Ella took the car cause she's worried about her horses and she basically does nothing but drive like 500 miles because she later that evening arrives back at the family farm and she is the first of the Tromp family members to get home. So they've been gone for really just about a day at this point.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
But when she gets there, she discovers that she's not the only one there because the police were already at the family farm. The police found the home unlocked and in utter disarray. They saw years worth of farm's financial records all kind of just littered throughout the home, indicating that someone had actually gone through these records relatively recently.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
They also found the family's passports, credit cards, and cell phones, other than Mitchell's because we know Mitchell took his phone with him. And so to the investigators, it looked more like the Tromps had fled rather than left for a fun family vacation.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Later, maybe not surprisingly, Ella shows up in the stolen car where police are already at looking at what looks to be some sort of a break-in or disturbance, at least. She is charged with car theft related to, of course, the stolen vehicle that she drove all the way back home in. Now, Rihanna was also part of that carjacking, but she was not charged with car theft due to her mental state.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
That's this case. That is this case. Yeah. No, no, no. It's not a spoiler alert because you guys are going to want to stay around for the dot, dot, dot, because it is a mind boggler, shall we say.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or condo. It's about the home. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location and neighborhood. If you have kids, it's also schools, nearby parks, and transportation options.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
That's why Homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in-depth information they need to find the right home.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
So a lot is happening in a short amount of time and it's not going to stop. So on September 1st, the next day, the police are responding to the incident from the night before when they're notified in the early morning hours that the family's car had been located and it was reportedly operated by one man.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
This kind of tracks with it being Mark Trump since he was the one still in the car whereas Jacoba had left by public transit. Now, Mitchell, the brother, and Ella Trump appeared on Channel 9 News. So they're the two who made it home at this point. And they go to the news stations and they start asking the public for assistance in locating their parents.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Mitchell went on to say that his father was fearful someone was after him, which led the family's decision to flee. Now, Mitchell was not able to provide further details other than that this paranoid behavior of his parents had been ramping up and it was not typical of his parents.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Later that day, Jacoba, who'd been on that train, arrived at Yass District Hospital after a local found her just wandering around town. By the way, the Australians sound really nice. All of these people who seem to be having mental, you know, breakdowns are brought to the hospital, which is like very nice.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Truthfully, I mean, this is unfortunate.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Yeah. So now Jacoba gets to the hospital by the help of some local and she's examined and it was determined that her mental health wasn't of good standard. Such an elegant way of saying she's not doing well, right? There's something clearly wrong. You can kind of tell with what's been happening, the pattern of behavior.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Now, because she clearly needs some medical help, she's actually moved to the hospital in Goldburn so she can be with Rihanna. Remember, Rihanna, the eldest daughter, had been brought there in a catatonic state who also is getting psychiatric help. So the two of them are both at Goldburn Hospital and both are getting treated.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
So far, this has not been a fun road trip whatsoever. You know, you left with five, one quickly abandons, then two more, including a stolen car. But now we've accounted for four of the family members. Two are back home pleading for help from the public to locate their parents. Two, mom and older daughter, are in the hospital. Where is Mark?
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Right. Because all we know is there is that weird tailgating man charging incident. Break-ins may or may not be related to him. And then silence for at least a day. Then on September 3rd, around 5.50 p.m., Mark Tromp was located by police wandering down the road in Wangaratta, not far from the airport. And the police pick him up and they interview him for several hours.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
He's also assessed by a mental health officer. But roughly five hours later, he's not hospitalized like his wife and daughter were. Instead, he's released to the care of his brother, who happened to be a police officer. And maybe he was well enough mentally to be released, or maybe they felt okay releasing him to a fellow police member.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I think you're right. They do have that desire. But your little caveat there, you would like to do that when you didn't have kids. What if you threw your kids in the mix and brought them along? That would be crazy, would it not? But is that maybe what we're going to talk about today?
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
But when he's driving away, he doesn't just keep his head down and go. No. Mark turns around and flips the middle finger birdie to the media who are waiting outside, and they've been following this for days. And that's his response.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And obviously this, this may have been crafted by someone, you know, handling PR for the family, but just two, three days earlier, he had been wandering the streets and getting a mental health evaluation. And three days later, this is a very professional and put together statement, right?
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Maybe he didn't make it specifically, but this is not a situation where he say in a catatonic state in the hospital, and they have to wait to figure out what he has to say, whatever is happening. It's coming full circle or ending relatively quickly. This whole road trip started like a week ago. We're not talking about like a month long saga. So that's all the public gets for several months.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
That was in September of 2016. Now, in March of 2017, Victoria police actually withdraw the charges against Ella Trump for stealing a vehicle. They're allowed to do that. But remember, they never charged Rihanna because of her mental state. And now they actually withdraw the charges against Ella.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Now, six months after the incident, the entire family, and this is probably the strangest thing of this whole story. We just followed a saga of a road trip for this family. But I think the next part is what is the most puzzling to me. Just six months later, not six years, not 10 years, six months later, the whole family, all five members of the Trump family, what are they doing?
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
They're back to work. They're on the farm. They're doing well. No further explanation on the strange road trip has ever been provided, and they haven't skipped a beat. Mark Knight, he was the lead police investigator on this case, and he stated that there was no evidence of any drug use in the family. any financial problems or debts or evidence that they were part of any sort of cult.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Basically all of the kind of wild conspiracy theories that you may think have contributed to this wild ride for an otherwise totally regular run of the mill family who had this like one week blip in their life and then went right back to their totally normal farm life. There was really no explanation and that's it. That is the whole story.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Like, how do you get over that? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And kind of so did the public. There were no repercussions. Like, they did steal someone's car. Like, if they stole my Odyssey, what am I going to do without my Odyssey? Like, how am I going to drive my kids around, right? Like, this is... Yes, something happened. We don't know what, but... It's as if we just turned back time and this week never happened. Except it did happen and it was wild.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
There's so many letters. I didn't know that. Melbourne. Okay. Melbourne. I do have a little challenge, shall I say? Australians, get us to your continent. Please do, because I asked my kids today.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Such a wild ride and the public was drawn into it.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
So all of this leads to what? What happened? What can explain this? Like, truly, this story, there were so many off ramps that could have been devastating. I truly think at so many different points, Rihanna could have ended up somewhere very scary at the hands of people who took advantage of someone vulnerable. Same with Mark Trump. Same with Jacoba. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Exactly. You can teach us all the words. We'll call it a grammatical linguistic exchange. But my kids, I was like, where in the world would you like to go? You could go anywhere in the world. We just like play these questions, you know, conversation starters at dinner. And you know what they said? Unequivocally, Australia. And I was like, oh, wow, you didn't have to think about that.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
So get us there and we will come with a lot of little munchkins.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I was going to say, even if you don't have an explanation, because maybe you don't know that itself is an explanation, right? Like I have no idea what I just did. Like that, that itself could be a kind of a, I'm sorry. Right. But that has never happened. But I do wonder if that may be part of it is they literally have no idea.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I mean, this doesn't have to be even a dragon, right? Literally a couple of weeks ago, I think I told the story on another episode. We live in a place with a lot of tornadoes and we had all of my family visiting from a place where there are not tornadoes and they were sleeping at our house and the tornado was about to touch down. I was
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
quite literally texting with Mrs. Brett about the tornado because it was about to hit like our house directly. She was like, are you awake? Are you watching this? It's 2 a.m. And so we had 60 seconds to round up all the family members upstairs, everyone dead asleep. And I woke up everybody and said, get down into the crawl space. And like they were like, what? But no one questioned it.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And everyone just like ran in their underwear straight into like underneath the stairs. Along these lines, because I spoke with a lot of authority and a lot of fear. I spoke with a lot of fear because truly we thought the tornado was about to strike our exact house and it ended up striking very close to our house.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
But I got basically all these people to unquestionably follow me into a very dusty portion of our house with like 10 people in a tiny, tiny space. So you can see how this can happen. And they all followed me. Now, I just happened to have like weather and the news on my side. And I wasn't the only one saying this.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I was going to say, I only eat them when she's here.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
But from that perspective of waking up at 2 a.m., not knowing what's happening, but following blindly into a place we don't know without our phones, without our, you know, nobody brought anything with them. That's actually exactly what happened.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And here's another thing about this, right? When they're seeing these exhibitions of paranoia, the first thing they do is not to contact any family members for help or law enforcement. All the things they do after kind of things get out of hand. They go to the media. They call police. They report their parents missing. They clearly have extended family, including an uncle who is a police officer.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Kind of all these other things that you would...
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
think if you need help there are other resources you could reach out to they don't do that it's all very insular this makes a lot of sense if you are a very close-knit family so they're looking to each other and no one else is brought into this because it doesn't appear that like a neighbor is called it's like hi something weird is going on or hey uncle who's a police officer do you know what's going on here mom and dad have been acting a little paranoid they all basically buy in
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And especially when you're on a farm, I can imagine why you'd want to leave with the rest of the family. A farm takes a lot of work. In fact, it takes a whole family and probably other hired help. If everyone is leaving but you, you literally can't keep that farm running all by yourself. There are usually duties are split up. It's an all day, you know, sun up to sundown sort of situation.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Like, well, if you're all abandoning it, like, what is the point of me staying here? Because the farm's not going to thrive without you guys. Are we just like... abandoning this? Is this our next plan? We're all going together. So I can imagine kind of the very isolated feeling of not just this is my family, but the farm is part of my life and my family as well.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I can't be the only one to keep the farm running. So I guess we're all going together. I think that's really interesting that no outside help is asked for until kind of things just scatter quite literally to the wind.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And so kind of in that vein though, I know earlier you said the family kind of owes an explanation. I don't know. I think if this was, and it really does feel like this had to do with mental illness, we know at least two of the family members were hospitalized for psychiatric help. I can see how confusing and scary this is. And mental illness typically doesn't show up and leave right away.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Usually it is a lifelong process of figuring out what happened. And if that is the journey they're on, I hope them the best. But also, I do think you're so right, Brett, that it can be such a good reminder that when we see bizarre, bizarre cases, the man watching the Super Bowl and just leaves with a sandwich and ends up across the country, dead on the side of the road.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I don't know what happened in that case, but... you know we are drawn to these cases because they are bizarre because they seem to defy all sense and we think there is a bogey monster oftentimes there are serial killers are real but so much more often the person next to you may be just having a really really hard time
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And the good thing about this case is this family was having a really, really hard time. And I think they met angels all along the way who helped them all get home. And they get to be home. They didn't end up like a lot of the cases that we just mentioned. They lived to tell about it. And hopefully those who are close to them know and are helping them through whatever it is.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And also another good reminder, true crime and mental health really do go hand in hand in so many of our cases. We've talked about this in the cases we prosecute, at least in the United States. We don't have a really good defining line between criminal law and mental health help. Often they are intertwined. So one thing that may have prevented this particular episode of a week is...
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
If there was external help earlier than later, you know, at least it came later and it saved everyone and everyone is okay in terms of health. But we've said this before, like in the Elisa Lam case, and we've said this so often, but be on the lookout for each other. We are, you know, each other's greatest resource and also protectors.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I just want to go like hug that man who found Rihanna in the catatonic state. Thanks for not kidnapping her and murdering her. Thanks for getting her help. Thanks for not dumping her on the side of the road where someone else could have run over her or done something terrible to her.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Those are all, you know, scary situations to be in, but at least I think this case has a happy ending and we don't always get to say this in these types of cases.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I might not because I think I have two sick kids.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
We'll do one next week. I'll make it up to you guys.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I'll make it up by doing West Memphis through by myself next time.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Are you just trying to troll people and think we're talking about the Trump family?
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
So no more political comments. I never. Or your secret embezzlement schemes. I never. But yeah, it's been one of those days.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
sorry guys we were we were gossiping everyone gossiping about not true crime related well actually true crime related it's true sorry sorry i was telling them that do your kids like is this i know your kids may not as much but you know my kids are like really into loveys like like their whole life surrounds their lovey not as much as yours No, not my kids. Yeah, exactly.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And the reason I'm late is because we couldn't find number two Squanto's lovey. And he is attached to his lovey. It is his like extension. And we looked in the entire house. You know what it was? It was on my podcast microphone. He came in here and like dropped it on here. So that's why I'm late.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
So obviously the entire story is in the timeline. I mean, this is a road trip of confusion, if you could name it that. And the most confusing part, if you lived through this time, because it wasn't that long ago, this was less than 10 years ago, nine years ago, each day brought more and more confusion. So as you walk through the timeline with us, walk through this immense confusion with us.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And like Brett said, I don't know if we'll have answers at the end of this, but this is so bizarre, especially when you're talking about five adults here, three adult children, you know, the youngest is 22. So, so truly not a teenager who are successful, happy. And. They leave on this trip. So let's take us back to August 29th, 2016.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
The Trump family, remember, they work on a farm seven days a week. Why did they do that? Not because they're workaholics, but because that's what a farm requires. Those of you who either work on a farm, know people who own farms, know that whether it's animals or plants, plants, in this case, it's a red current farm, there are things to do every single hour of every single day.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And you typically can't even take vacation. That's one of the hard things about being a farmer. And so for all of them to leave at once is notable in itself. And that's what they did on August 29th, 2016. They left their home in Sylvan, Victoria, in Ella, one of the daughters, Silver Pugio SUV. And they left... Not with the things you normally would leave home with. They didn't take their phones.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
They didn't take their passports. They didn't take credit cards. They quite literally had their bodies and got in a car and left. Now, the son, Mitchell, was the only one in the group with a cell phone. But just 19 miles into the drive, his parents made him throw his phone out the window near Warburton.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And so they were afraid that they would be able to be tracked via the phone, which is why they had Mitchell throw his phone out. So not only did they not bring their phones, but no one in the car can have phones. Turning it on airplane mode wasn't enough. We had to get rid of that entire phone lest they be tracked.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And I'll admit, I've tried to put myself in Mitchell's shoes. If everyone in my family got in the car and just started leaving, I would probably jump in the car, too. I don't want to be left behind. I don't know what's going on, but I'm probably going to go as well. Well, this road trip, like most road trips, you know, people get fed up with it just hours into the road trip. So by 7 a.m.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
the next day, Mitchell's like, I've had enough of this. You threw my phone out hours ago. I don't know what's happening. So he leaves the family in Bathurst approximately just 500 miles from home. So it seems like they've just been driving nonstop to get 500 miles away. And then he's like, you know what? Open the car door. I'm leaving.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Now, the rest of the family, the other four, mom, dad, two sisters, continue in the car. And a short while later, the rest of the family arrived at Jonalyn Caves, a popular tourist spot in the Blue Mountains of New South Wales. There, the remaining Tromp siblings, the two sisters, actually, they also decide we're done with this trip. And so they leave the parents at that point.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
So really quick note, three of the five members of this family abandoned this trip by the second day.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Hmm. Wanderlust wandering. What a good descriptor, Brett. I am so proud of you. You can't help but, you know, be drawn into my puns. So I'm proud of you.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
This is all incredibly puzzling because it's not like we're talking about two young women who have like a history of carjacking. So I don't actually personally know how to steal a car, but they pretty with some alacrity find a car to take, steal, quite literally steal. It's not theirs. They had no permission to take it and they take it. And what's interesting is what they say to the police.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Right. Not my parents are acting weird or hey, I saw them drive in this car headed to this destination and I'm worried about them because they're they're close to their family. They're close to their parents. They live with their parents. But to just say that they're missing is really interesting because it then draws into question like what does it mean to be missing?
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
This is not meant to be an existential question, but you typically think of reporting someone missing if, say, I arrive home and my husband was supposed to be home and his car's gone and his wallet's gone and he's nowhere to be found and none of his friends know where he is. But this isn't the case. They left the parents and now they're reporting them missing.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
About time. It's been five years of doing the podcast. Yeah. It only took five years, guys. Yeah. Talk about wandering. Am I right? This is one of the strangest stories I've ever heard. And I kept waiting for, you know, like when you watch a kind of a mysterious movie and you wait for either the punchline or the answer. And it's just like a dot, dot, dot. And I just like scream at the screen.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
She just rests. She just rests. Yeah. She's just laying in the back.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And so this is really interesting. This is about an hour after Ella leaves her. So either she becomes into this catatonic state within the hour of Ella leaving her or she was like this with Ella. And yet being in this clearly helpless state, her sister just leaves her as opposed to keep her in the same car to go back to the home that they both live in. I mean, nothing is adding up.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
There's just question mark after question mark that's happening right now.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
that's very prescient of him but also remember he interviews these people he's probably covered a couple stories of people who've summited and so there's a camaraderie he's seen in other groups as well that he sees lacking here but the fact that he had this like premonition that this lack of connectivity in the group would lead to death ultimately
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
is one of those kind of hair-raising details about this case that, like you said, isn't looking back 2020, but is something that he almost foresees based on the interactions, which just tells you that, you know, he doesn't know these individual people. So their disconnection from each other must have been somewhat obvious, right? You can see certain groups when they jive.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
If you've ever been part of a group, you know, I ran like one of those Ragnar races, which is one of those, you
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
tap in and out and you have a van and the rest of your team is going with and you see those groups kind of form and there's usually so much hubbub you're about to do something historic right you're about to summit this mountain four times before only have ever accomplished there's usually a buzz and an excitement and that's what bonds you and i can imagine that that's lacking here despite kind of the historic nature of what's about to happen
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And so that puts us right there with him. On January 20th, 1973, the group, along with their mules, hiked 25 miles to Casa de Piedra, which was a stone house at the confluence of the Vacas and Relinchos rivers. Isn't that crazy? They're already hiking 25 miles before they even start the summit. So this is a very demanding trail.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And in a diary entry from this day, John Cooper wrote that Eubank, who was the doctor of the group, was already sick. Not a great sign of things to come. Obviously, these trips, getting from the United States all the way to Argentina, is a taxing trip in and of itself. Change in culture, change in food, change in temperature and altitude, and then the exertion.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Anyone, if your immune system is slightly down, you can see how you can get sick. But this is a bad way to start a very difficult climb. The next day, on January 21st, 1973... The group reaches base camp, which is at 13,500 feet of elevation, and the group's guide, Miguel Alfonso, hired a 25-year-old climber and student named Roberto Bustos to manage the base camp.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
In that New York Times article we talked about, Bustos offered the following commentary about the group, who he was also just meeting for the first time.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
bustos recalled his early impression of the group a lot of high-quality gear but an unsettling dynamic there was no group attitude bustos said i was thinking oh i am on my own everyone has to take care of himself in my opinion they weren't ready for such a strange and big mountain as akankagua
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
It was expected to take a week or more to arrive at the summit, and doing so would require a lot of shuttling up and down the mountain, moving gear and adjusting to the changing attitude. So it's not one of those things where you just keep putting one foot in front of the other. There's so much gear, so much stuff happening that there is going up and down continuously.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Over the next few days, this is exactly what the group would do, shuttling up and down the mountain. They began by carrying gear up to Camp 1, which was at 15,500 feet elevation. So they're traveling up 2,000 feet of elevation with all their gear. At the end of the day, they didn't stay at Camp 1, but they return back to base camp.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Está muy frija. Muy frija. Did you say frija or frija? Is frija like female bean?
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or condo. It's about the home. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location and neighborhood. If you have kids, it's also schools, nearby parks, and transportation options.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
That's why Homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in-depth information they need to find the right home.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
It's so cold here, y'all. It is snowpocalypse, quite literally. Four days before this snowstorm hit, our entire town closed for two days. Like, preemptively, they closed it for two days. So it is muy fria. Está muy fria.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
But you know what? For once, they always say there's going to be snow and there's never snow. Like last week, remember they closed everything down and it was like 36 degrees and rainy. Today, we got like, I don't know what, three, four inches of snow, which is insane for us.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Yeah, and we still have a long way to go. So to already feel this fracture so early on is not great for the team dynamic. So on January 28th, the group continued on making it up to Camp 3, which is at the base of the Polish Glacier. So now they're just getting to the route that is so hard to get up to the summit. And it was at 19,400 feet elevation.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
They were stuck at Camp 3 for a full day because of a storm. Remember we said that the weather was really unpredictable on this path. But the next day, the skies cleared and this remaining group was eager to finally summit. So on January 30th, about, the hike to the summit was expected to take the majority of that day. And the group planned to eat breakfast and begin the journey.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
But Petroski lost his coordination out of the blue, which the group feared may have been the result of high altitude cerebral edema, which can be potentially deadly because it's a swelling of the brain. So in order to be safe, Alfonso escorted Petroski back to base camp. Remember, our doctor is not here.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
So this remaining group who doesn't have medical training, but they're at least one of them, a couple of them are pretty experienced climbers, recognize that suddenly losing your balance could mean something very deadly. But we don't have a doctor here in order to make that diagnosis. So Alfonso and Petroski are now going all the way back to base camp.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
So the remaining members of the group are Cooper, Johnson, Zeller, and McMillan. They decide to continue on despite the fact that the group was 50% smaller than when they began. And they had never climbed to this elevation before. And these four really hardly knew each other at all.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
You've lived here way more than I have.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And like we said, this is not going to be easy whatsoever, but they decide to forge on. By the time it got dark, the group still had not made it to the summit. And at about 21,000 feet, they dug the small snow cave on the glacier with their ice axes. so they could rest for the night. So they're not at a camp. They're in the elements.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
They had no sleeping bags, really nothing with them because the goal and really what they were supposed to do was to reach the summit that day. The night, as you can imagine, was incredibly rough. It was cramped and uncomfortable in this makeshift cave that they had dug out with their own pickaxes. And so Johnson and Zeller sat outside shivering in the freezing temperatures.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
The wind continually blew snow into the cave, covering Cooper with snow and baring his legs. So I don't know about you, Brett, but we have four people. Everyone's working hard to pick a way at this little cave. But two out of the four people end up having to sit outside. Doesn't sound like it's much warmer in the cave, but already...
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
I don't know that I'd feel so great if I was the one who had to sit outside in the middle of this snowstorm after being exhausted all day.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And you can imagine, I mean, obviously we're hearing about the story after the fact, but you can imagine this is the value of having an experienced guide, Alfonso, right? Because even though we can see it, even though Camp 3 is two hours away, those distances mean very different things when you're in such extreme conditions.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
I mean, this seems just incredibly foolhardy to be going, but in some ways they might be thinking, What options do we have? And we've already come so far. But you can imagine Alfonso, maybe if he was there, would say like, it may look close, but in where we are right now, this is much too dangerous to keep going. But all we have really are three people who barely know each other.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
who already bid farewell to another member of their group and said, good luck on your own. In a lot of ways, this is a recipe, so many recipes for disaster. But we are truly the blind leading the blind here.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Look, I'm not a, I'm not a mountaineer. I know a lot of people get lots of highs from climbing mountains, but I think the Kamar Dabin, Kamar Dabin, the Dyatlov Pass and this case alone have made me not want to climb a mountain ever in my life because that's got to be the worst thing. You do all that work, summit, see the beauty of the world and murder? I don't know.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Maybe we'll find out by the end of this.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And he realized that he hadn't really seen any of that. It was a trick of his imagination. So he hadn't seen the dead soldier in the snow. He hadn't seen army men coming up the mountain to rescue them. This was all a hallucination from the altitude, from exhaustion, from the cold. He would later actually come to believe that the dead man he saw in the snow was Cooper, who we now know is dead.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Yeah, it obviously doesn't sound like a good plan here sitting in my warm house. You just stumbled on what I imagine to be a horrific, you know, scene. Someone from your expedition is dead right in front of you. And he might be thinking, this is me if I try to stay with Janet. So I'm just going to go ahead. You're never supposed to do that.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And if that's what you're thinking, I can't imagine you'd ever tell anyone that, especially when we know Janet's not going to make it. But obviously people are not thinking clearly here. We see construction trucks. We see Argentine army men.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Obviously there's like probably some hallucination happening and no one is doing well, especially after having spent multiple days out in the elements camping with No camping gear. But that's another narrative that I don't think we would ever hear from him, if indeed. And it would be completely like a human nature response to seeing someone you know dead in front of you from the elements.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
In the very elements that you are just barely escaping. But whatever it is, Zeller leaves Janet behind. And he got to camp about three hours after McMillan. And so Zeller and McMillan are reunited at Camp 3.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
they both decide to get some sleep but when they woke in the morning janet was nowhere to be found which is not surprising so at this point after they've gotten warmed up gotten some sleep zeller and macmillan decide to head down the mountain without her
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Which is kind of interesting because at that point, if they woke up, I would think once you've had some rest, gotten out of the elements, you would think, whoa, she never came in. Let's go look for her. But that's not their intuition. They decide to just continue down the mountain away from dead Cooper and Janet, who continues to be out in the elements, who has blackened hands.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And one more thing to note. Remember the three to four city blocks? That's how far Cooper is away. And Cooper's dead. So clearly Cooper, having seen the tents three or four city blocks away, never made it. So Cooper had three fewer days in the elements at that point than Janet. Janet has been out in the elements a lot longer. Has already, you know, at least one day prior said she wanted to die.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And they've taken these tumbles down the mountain, which... You know, further injure you and exhaust you. It is at that point, the three or four city blocks that Cooper was dead. And to think that someone in probably worse condition than Cooper was at that point was going to make it seems unreasonable, but perhaps in their state of mind, reasonable place to be.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Well, we're not the only ones thinking this is strange because when the two men make it to the base of the mountain, they, as well as Alfonso, the guide who had gone down much earlier, never went up to the summit with them. They were held for questioning by the Argentinian police and the police were looking into the possibility of manslaughter.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
The investigation was also supported by the American embassy. Here you have a bunch of Americans and two of them are still at the top of that mountain.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
after their initial questioning the americans were released and they returned to hotel nutabara where their journey began and the u s state department also had questions for these men consul wilbur w hitchcock tried to speak with the group but he was unable to garner any useful information with the men using the effects of high altitude in the mind as an excuse for their lack of insight.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
So even though they were questioned by the police and also by the United States, there wasn't much information that they could gather from any of this. They were just like, I don't know. We've been out in the elements for so long. You know how difficult this path is. That's why only four other groups have ever made it. We failed. We thought there were bulldozers and Argentinian armies that
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
we weren't in our right mind. So we did the best we can. We almost died up there as well. That's basically where it ended up.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
It was almost like this blase, not even seeming utter devastation, right? Like I've never happened. I'm not a climber. I've never happened across dead bodies. But both of them report seeing Cooper. One of them says they hallucinated and thought it was, you know, an army man who was dead in the snow. But they've seen a dead man, someone they went up with who was alive when they went up together.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And he is now dead. And the other one who had blackened hands they had apparently tried to save. No longer there. There's not even that level of that could have been me, which is a very interesting dynamic that's happening. Nothing useful is coming out of this. Nothing like you said, the fact that the questions led to nothing.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
I understand that they may be spouting off a lot of information if they're trying to be helpful, but it ends up not being helpful because of their state of mind. That makes more sense than just not giving any useful information whatsoever. Yeah. So this all sounds very convenient because guess what? If a crime has been committed, what do you want to not happen?
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Anyone to find the bodies or maybe the axes or anything that could be pointing to you as being the crime conductor? I've lost it. I've lost the stream of consciousness. But you can see why they may not want to help if they are being questioned for a crime. And immediately, it's not like later on.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Immediately, as soon as they get to camp, that's when the questions start because they wonder if a crime has been committed. Not years down the road comparing different kind of testimonies. Immediately. And that says something here.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
I have not. I would love to.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
I may not because I can literally hear him through the two doors.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
So unpredictable. We tried to move this recording up a little bit, but apparently he was like, no.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
That was real good. Aconcagua. I was trying not to laugh so that it didn't get messed up. Aconcagua.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Carmi began to work on a plan to travel to Argentina and complete an expedition to top Aconcagua. Did I say that right?
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
It got stuck right here. Aconcagua. Okay. Aconcagua. I got it. Argentina.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Or at least we'll attempt to. It's been 50 years. We don't think that highly of ourselves right now. But we can attempt. And we're going to do it as we do all of our other cases through our trusty timeline. What's so interesting about this case is obviously it's not like these two mountaineers went up and didn't come down. They were with a group.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And still, despite being with a group, we don't know what happened. Let's see if we can figure it out together. So let's go back to June 1972. Carmi Defoe is a lawyer from Portland, Oregon, and also a member of the Mazamas Climbing Club. Carmi was planning to travel to Argentina and complete an expedition to top Aconcagua via the Polish route, the hard route, as we now know.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Now, he assembled a group of seven American men, and they consisted of Carmi Defoe, who is 52 years old, Jim Petroski, 39 years old, who was a psychiatrist from Portland, Oregon. Bill Eubank, 45 years old. He was a physician from Kansas City, Missouri. Arnold McMillan, 46 year old dairy farmer from Otis, Oregon. Bill Zeller, a 45 year old police officer from Salem, Oregon.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
John Shelton, a 25-year-old from Brigham Young, and he was studying geology, also fluent in Spanish, which would be helpful here. And John Cooper, a 35-year-old NASA engineer from Houston, Texas. As you can tell, very accomplished group, also very varied in terms of age, location within the United States.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And they probably all had one thing in common, which is that each of them were pretty successful in what they did. as you typically are if you're going to train and plan for a trip like this far from home, to go up the side of a famous mountain by one of its most difficult routes, where only a handful of other expeditions had successfully summited.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
carmy defoe would be the leader of this group and petrosky was the deputy leader and next in charge was eubank who served as the doctor and sheldon was the interpreter now the remainder of the group did not have defined hierarchy they were just part of the expedition So in anticipation, Defoe collected a $50 deposit from each of the men and began planning the trip.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
He secured a guide who was Miguel Alfonso, who had been to the summit five times and via the Polish route once. This group would be the fifth expedition to top Aconcagua via the Polish route.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
No, that was beautiful. I've just been too sick to do them. Yes.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
It's going to be hard in the summer, all the turtlenecks. I know it'll be hot. You could have a dickie that's a turtleneck.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
A dickie is like where it looks like it's a collared shirt with a vest, but it's just a collar. It's from, so Tina Fey made a hilarious joke about it in 30 Rock. She's like, joke's on you. I'm wearing a dickie. And she like opens up her shirt and it's just like literally a collar. So it's like not really a shirt. You were a big fan of 30 Rock.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
In this context would be just a turtleneck and then like a muscle tee underneath.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Yeah, we celebrated Valentine's Day today at our school, not because they're trying to observe Ash Wednesday tomorrow, but because they have too many activities tomorrow, like their music class and, you know, the gymnastics stuff. And I was like, oh, all right. It's just got to have parties. And OK, I don't know.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I mean, in my opinion, I was saying that maybe it's like evolutionarily they're trying to the virus trying to make you look attractive. So you procreate before it kills you.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Maybe. Yeah. Anyway. It's not a fancy school. The gymnastics stuff is quite literally an old school bus that's been painted. It's amazing.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Yeah. It's like, it's not fancy. It's the opposite of fancy. It looks like an attractive nuisance of a tort waiting to happen. It definitely is. Because it's just a metal bus with all the seats taken out of it and like gymnastics wear that is much too dangerous for kids to play on. And then they- Put all the kids in there and close the door. And they're like, go do gymnastics.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Well, now we have Jungle Gym. So you can see how there's a lot of trademark issues happening over here. Anyways. And happy Mardi Gras. Happy Fat Tuesday, everybody. Yeah, happy Mardi Gras. Happy Mardi Gras. I'm actually supposed to be at a ball tonight, but I'm here with you guys.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
You know, I've only ever gone to these balls sick. And I always people are afterwards like, man, I got so sick after going to that event. And I was like, yeah, it definitely wasn't me who got you sick. So today I am helping them by being here.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Okay, we better start recording, because this is a fun episode. And I do have a lot of questions for you.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Oh, yeah. No problem. They have a little bit of bias against the old southern accent.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
You know, the original Mardi Gras started in Mobile, Alabama, not New Orleans.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
But New Orleans, so I don't really understand my parents' life choices. They took me to my first Mardi Gras in New Orleans when I was like six. Really not okay. And by the way, I think I can talk about this because it's like statute of limitations has passed, but my older brother was like nine. He wasn't of age.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
And he freaking drank an entire yard dog and obviously got very drunk. And he was nine years old. That's a lot. And he didn't know. He thought he was drinking like a punch. And the adults just let it happen.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Yeah, very different than an entire yard dog in the French Quarter. But anyways.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Killing it. By the way, we do have ads today. Before we do that, I wanted to just go blow my nose.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
We just can't hear it. Kayla, it might help. Sometimes the bandwidth is too much for like StreamYard. If you maybe mute your video for a moment, it might. But you can keep talking. I think it's still recording. Just try and talk with the video muted. Leave the video off.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
We would love to see your beautiful face, but if Addie is right and we are doppelgangers, maybe there's too much of this face on the screen.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
That none of us respond to. Yeah, we'll just have to. We'll all just be so dumbfounded. You know, we should record a couple of things like, my goodness, you're right. Yes, we can kind of hear you. It's okay. No, no, no. It's okay. I don't know. I'm just going to record reactions right now. Kayla, that is just so profound. Thank you for sharing that. Oh, my God.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
The delayed reactions are great. No, no, no. I'm loving this. this is too good this is too good i hope everyone's having fun because i am so while you're here i agree what is what is something prosecutors do that you wish we didn't do
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Cheers. Cheers. Wonderful. Cheers, you guys. Thank you guys so much. Kayla, I'm so sorry about the video problems. Yeah, you kind of caught up towards the end.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
All right, all right, all right, all right. All right, all right, all right. Okay. Okay.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Oh, I was just curious. You know, I was listening to one of our earlier episodes, and I was like, Brett, we've been talking all day. And I was like, oh, I missed that.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Are you trying to freak me out? Because it's working. I was like, please don't play it.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
That's a really great point. Have you ever seen someone have a seizure? It's terrifying. Like if there were ever a demon possession, I think it would look like that, right? I was in college and I was at a restaurant. And I was like waiting to check out and someone just like had a, you know, epileptic episode in front of me. And it was terrifying.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I know there are lots of different ways to have an epileptic episode, but like it looked terrifying and there were not very many people around, you know, to help out. I didn't know what to do. but I can imagine when it's so un-understood. And then you have a doctor who's like, you're fine, your brainwaves are fine.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
And you continue to have these episodes for people to want to understand and think it's something paranormal.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Yeah. You know, I think it would be too hard to like understand, you know, which which category it falls into. And it's also like too dangerous. Like, you know, you have epilepsy. You need to treat it.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Totally different. The whole this is why the timeline really works here.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
everything like when you just when you present it as a story you're like but she heard knocking but she was afraid of crucifixes she did this and that you're like oh my god totally demon possessed but you're like no she was told she was demon possessed and then developed all this and we know she loved christian literature so she's like well read in this area and knows like how the demon possessed are afflicted right you know
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Oh, absolutely. And like we see this in mental illness cases, right? Like the drinking of the urine, things like that, where I'm not saying that there's the totally you're not OK mentally and you do things like drink urine. But there's also part of like the martyrdom syndrome where it's like these steps are going to make me sicker as well. And it's like it's all wrapped up in the same thing.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Not nobody thinks they're doing it intentionally, but it's all wrapped up in this like mental illness.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
This one was not fun. This one was sad. This one's dark. The trick-or-treat one was great.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
It is depressing. You know I don't like these exorcism ones. They terrify me.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
yeah like i said the next next week's episode is great and i'm very excited about the halloween episode i think of course because it is brett's like greatest joy in life to pick these halloween episodes obviously he picks all of them because i would never pick any of them but he also is a little bit evil because he keeps him from me so that i get surprised that's true yeah
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
happening this is totally my thing it's like yeah uh i have to read them i have to like research them in the broad daylight literally it's like it's starting to get dark out i'm like can't do any more research today alice is a is a good sport no not at all okay well all right might be i need to go figure out what we're recording tomorrow but I'll let you know when I research it.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Well, guys, thanks for sticking with us, especially after apparently we set the internet on fire today. Yes, we tend to do.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
All right. I'm not going to delay because here's the thing. The people who are here don't even know who we have here today, and they're going to lose their mind. So I'm going to go ahead and sign us on with our usual introduction. Thank you, Erlinda. I'm going to do a sign-off, and we're going to go, I'm Alice, I'm Brett, and you can say, I'm Erlinda, so that we can close out. Is that okay?
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Are you okay with being part of our closing? Sure. Okay. People are going to pump their fists, you know, when you say it. Okay. Thank you, Erlinda. That was incredible. Thank you. Sorry to give you the third degree, but you know, when you give like other, other, when you're interviewed on like mainstream TV, I guess they just skip over all the stuff that I actually care about. I know.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Let me just check my levels real quick. Okay. Whenever I like leave town, I have to really check my levels because like this closet ain't protected. Guys. Okay. Did anyone else see the total eclipse? Because I was in Dallas and it was incredible. Like it was, I knew it was going to be amazing and it was as amazing as I thought it was going to be.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Like when, you know, when you watch it, like totally eclipse the whole, like where I was standing, there were a bunch of people just because everyone that comes out of the buildings to watch. like just started like cheering. And it was like, it was so great. It was like a great moment of humanity.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I know. Well, that's here. Here's the crazy thing. This is how powerful the sun is, right? Like it doesn't get dark. It's like a light switches off. It's not quite, I don't know. I don't know if other people had different experiences. So it wasn't like pitch black at all, but the difference between like, like the second before total eclipse and actual eclipse was stark. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
It got colder. It felt like 10 degrees colder. Someone, like, they reported on whatever the temperature difference was, but it felt like, man, I get the dinosaurs, man. If there was, like, ash or whatever covering the sun, there was no hope for those dinosaurs. No hope for those dinosaurs, man. Yep.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Anyways, if you're thinking about, in 21 years, whether to go see Totality, I think you should, because it's going across, like, a lot of America. So I feel like... Including... Alabama. Very excited about it.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Maybe we'll do a live totality podcast. And I was especially happy. This probably happened all over the country. But as soon as the eclipse happened, whoever was in charge of the playlist immediately started to blast Total Eclipse of the Heart. And I was like, nice. Nice. Anyways, it was just, it was so cool.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
And I took a video for my kids and they were really like, cause they watched it here, even though it's not totality, but they still got to watch it and learn about the, the clips. So it was great. It was so great.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I hope to be alive. I was talking to someone. They're like, I don't know if I'll be alive in 20 years. I was like, oh, I know.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I should be here. And if I'm not, something probably went wrong. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I just had to say that because it was so good. Anyway. Oh, that would be cute if Brittany and Little Brett had their own podcast.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
The Little Prosecutors. Oh, wait. Can I tell you one more anecdote today? Because I've missed you. It's been like a week. It has been. I hope no one from my work is on this chat right now. So we had like a really long internal meeting today for work. And like not everybody knows I have a podcast.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Like a couple people and all they do is like make fun of me incessantly about it, which is very appropriate. And so I had to speak during the meeting, but like – I was probably three-fourths through the agenda of the meeting, and the meeting was supposed to be an hour long. And by the time it was time for me to talk, it was already past an hour.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
So in other words, like, this meeting was going way long, and everybody knows how you feel about those meetings. So no one wanted to hear me talk. And so someone I work with texted me from a different office and was like – Like five bucks if you can use use the term the prosecutors, but not in the context of your podcast in your official comments to the entire law firm.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Well, thank you. The respect is mutual. And please pass along our thanks to Kelsey as well. I agree with you. I think she is a fantastic interrogator without being an interrogator. She is so good at questioning. We question witnesses as part of our job. And the way she was able to get Jeremy to say certain things I thought was just incredibly artful.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
And I was like, challenge accepted. And y'all, I had 30 seconds to come up with it and I nailed it.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
But only that one office knew. And so I like saw that like Zoom box like erupt right when I was talking. But it was totally worth it. Nobody else had any idea what I was talking about. But nailed it.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Okay. Anyways, now back to the real reason we're here, which I'm very excited because we find out today why his name is D.B. Cooper. D.B. Cooper. D.B. Cooper. And we found him. I'm just kidding.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Start recording on 99. I'm just kidding. Yes, that's for sure. How was work today? It was fun. Sorry, guys. I was explaining to Brett that I'm a little... I have the crazy look because I've been in a deposition for 11 and a half hours.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Okay, but you know what? I made those enchiladas. Thanks, Sophie, for that great idea. They were a hit. I was able to make them the night before so that... I could, you know, have them ready for dinner on a moment's notice. And then now I have to bake brownies tonight, though. So don't let me forget after we do ads because I have to bring brownies tomorrow.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I just remember that as we're talking about delicious enchiladas.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Delicious. All right. I was not being deposed. It's a really big problem if I'm being deposed. I was not being deposed. I was the attorney in the deposition. Oh, God. If I were being deposed, I wouldn't be here tonight. I'd be like, all right, Brent, give me your best bottle of bourbon. Anyway, sorry. The crazy. Oh, you know what? I forgot to eat before I came up here. Chocolates.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Rookie mistake. Rookie mistake. Okay. Do you want to start recording or something?
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Okay. I love cheesecake. Have you seen that picture of you on Reddit? I don't know why Jo thinks you go on Reddit. I never go on Reddit. There are pictures of me on Reddit. I didn't know that. I don't think I wanted to know there were pictures of me on Reddit.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I have no idea what you're talking about, but let me know if I need to go sue someone for like, I don't know. I'm done. I'm done with suing. I hang up the law forever. Okay, let's start recording.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I was so excited about Chevron I hit leave studio. Sorry about that. It was probably some non-profit and I felt it and I was like, oh, I know what's in here. It was a little pocky constitution. And I was like, man, if more people just read the constitution, no, you probably have to go read a con law book as well. Oh, okay. Do you want to? Okay. Bye, Brett. Oh, it is late. Oh, you know what? It is.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
It's lightning and tornadoing here. I hope you guys are safe. I'm looking at, I've been looking at my weather alerts that have been coming up. Yep, thunderstorm right above me. Hope my roof holds up. Anyways, thank you guys. I know this was very dense, but I do think this is incredibly important because Chevron deference is not something I think you learn outside of law school.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
But again, it's something that touches all of us. Thank you, Michelle. I do need to make brownies. I need to make, what are your go-to super lazy meals? This is disgusting. One of my favorite things to do is to crack an egg in a bowl. I'm too lazy to even cook it on the stove and put some cheese, avocado, whatever you want on it and microwave it to cook it.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Because then you don't have to wash two things, like a spatula, a pan, and a bowl and a fork. You just have the bowl. Anyways, that's my lazy meal that I'm probably going to make after this. White rice is delicious. Fried eggs are delicious too, but that takes too much cooking. I also can eat beets straight out of the jar. I love beets. I'm sorry. I have no idea where Brett is.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I assume his kids woke up from the thunderstorm. Hmm. Along the lines of melted cheese, like a quesadilla in a microwave. So good. Oh, my goodness. You guys are making me hungry. Do you guys have any questions about Chevron deference? Did you guys know what this was before tonight? I'm just curious if you haven't been to law school, how much you know about Chevron deference.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
We're just talking about quesadillas, which I think is fantastic. Uh, yes. Okay. Okay. That's really helpful. I never learned about Chevron deference in college, civics, high school, anything like that. Well, great. Glad you heard about it here. Justine, don't worry. People who specialize in Chevron deference get lost in it. It is a morass. It is not straightforward. It is not easy. Okay.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
If this case comes out like we think it's going to be, you're going to see a bunch of headlines that are the sky's falling. And hopefully this gives you some background to understand that the sky is not falling. It's going to be a shift for sure.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
But I think when you hear all the reasons for it, it's a really interesting conversation about what we want out of our democracy and how we want to be governed and by whom and stability. backward application of a criminal law, right? Like today, it is not illegal to drive a red car, but tomorrow I pass a law that says anyone who drives a red car can be thrown in jail for a year.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
You would not want that to apply retroactively because that's unfair. You didn't know what the law was. I mean, that's the same kind of principle we're talking about here in terms of having stability and knowing what the laws and regulations are. All right. Hey, Brett, I explained all of Chevron Deference.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I think it's better that you don't actually have like huge ideas about those because that's a whole behavioral analysis, right? When you get tunnel vision that it has to be, you know, D. Brett Cooper, then D. Brett Cooper. D. Brett Cooper.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Julie, I'm going to let you do all the talking because I'm like... Oh, you sound worse than yesterday, Brett. Sorry.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
That's okay. I'll survive. Okay. Oh, wait. No, no. This is your... You have to do a descriptor.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I will say, though, the Robert Wong case in particular has like caused conversation to explode online. I mean, people talk about our cases typically, but this one is just like strong feelings everywhere.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I mean, maybe we touched on it for a second, but we didn't delve into it. I don't even think we even talked about it.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I try to. That's ridiculous. What kind of research is that? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Anytime. Thank you so much. Thank you, Gilbert. We can't wait to see you again soon. I hope so, too. Huge fan.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
That's just my opinion that... What I got from all of the medical experts who weighed in all across the internet about sex and choline was that... It could and it could not have happened. You know, every doctor or nurse or whoever had access to them was like, this never happens. And then someone else would be like, it absolutely can.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
unconscious he had to have been, or at least paralyzed in the shower. Like it would be so difficult. There'd be so many problems. I mean, there's the dropping, there's the, it was a small shower. I mean, it's DC. It's like a little bathtub and that's not like a huge walk-in shower with like 10 different shower heads. Right. But I know, I know that a lot of people think that.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I just think with the positioning, it's just too complex. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Well, if this is just a little precursor of what's coming for D.B. Cooper, y'all, this is exciting. This is based on evidence. Now when you go back like 50 years and we have no evidence, she's going to go wild.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Well, that's like the best little mic drop right there. Guys, I know exactly who he is.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
So he maybe really did make it to Thanksgiving on time. Maybe. There you go.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
You might have to bail us out of jail. I'll send you some 20s now and start the fund of the bail money. Well, I mean, why? People are just pretty crazy about this case.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Man, weekends, I'm tired. By the end of the weekend, I'm like, that was a lot of kid time. It was a lot of kid time.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Okay, okay. I just didn't know. I can't even remember. Taylor Swift? No, Taylor Swift already came out. So, do we have one before? Are you sure? No, no, no. I'm sorry. Instagram said it was coming out, but it hasn't come out. Sorry. Yes.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I appreciate it. Thank you so much. You're the best. Talk to you later.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Thanks, Javier. That was awesome. I really, I could talk to you all night. Yeah, that was fascinating.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I was like, there was one question out of that list and I was like, oh, that one's- Well, it comes up in lots of, because I think the answer is it depends on, just like your attorney probably said, right? Like it depends on the situation. And I did not think it crossed into the line of just like-
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Yeah. I felt like that. I mean, I know you did several episodes on it, but that felt like. It ended. And that's where law enforcement should pick up.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
No one wants to wear a suit at 8.30 p.m., so I can imagine a suit that's good enough.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Cooper? We are at the question. Who is D.B. Cooper? Cooper. Who is D.B. Cooper?
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I don't know if the people are ready for this. I mean, I feel like you're already in character because the answer is Brett is D.B. Cooper. D. Brett Cooper. D. Brett Cooper. Okay, here we go. Did you go buy that cigarette for this or did you just have it?
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Yeah, we're recording. Look, you do you. I'm just letting you have your day.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I spent my birthday in a meeting all day. So this is the highlight, y'all. This is way better than sitting in a meeting.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I mean, as much fun as that would be, I feel like that cigarette's going to disintegrate in your mouth if you don't smoke it right now.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I'm not giving you permission. I merely see the inevitable. Has it turned into dip at this point? D.P. Cooper. It is the middle of April. Happy Tax Day, everybody. How is that possible? Where did the year go? Where did this month go? I don't know. I was saying something like- Where does life go?
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I was talking about a deadline to some folks at work, and I was like, well, we'll be able to do it this month. And I was like, I'm sorry, this week. And they were like, well, it's basically, this week is basically this month. And I was like, oh my goodness.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
That's like actually crazy. Yeah. I don't know about that, man. That is bananas.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Okay. Don't say we're going to wrap up DB Cooper today because I don't see that happening.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Okay, good. Because I was like, there's no way we're going to wrap it up today.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Well, here's the thing. It's not solved, so we might as well go through all the suspects because maybe we'll solve it.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Are you taking a call? Are we too boring for you? I am. Oh, my goodness. I apologize, you guys. I don't take calls when I'm talking to you. Are you calling someone? Doing okay?
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
It's not me. It's offensive to all the people who are here. Not really.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I'm not trying to make friends here. I'm trying to speak the truth. Just the truth.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
You should, but you don't have to. Maybe you can call someone to figure it out.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I wasn't texting. I was seeing if Mrs. Brett was texting both of us and why I need to be called.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I'm actually not. I'm actually looking up things on my phone so I don't have to clack on my computer.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Why are you so spicy today? What did I do to you? My goodness. Hour plus. Hour plus.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Oh, my goodness. Yeah, we're all about the bloopers, not on purpose. There's just so much fodder.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
We're just going to go... Didn't we do it? What day is today? Today is Monday. Oh, that was last week.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
I've totally lost track of time. I thought we just recorded ads, but it was like a week ago.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
Oh, we do have a... Oh, there they are. We just got it three hours ago. Yeah, we sure did. Okay, let me stop this recording.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
It did take me a while because I had to go get extra tissues because yesterday I didn't have tissues and I was, like, trying to, you know... I see. Okay.
The Prosecutors
282. Christmas Bloopers
That's good. Before I'm not sick, I really do need to read the one-star reviews about how it always sounds like she has a sinus infection. You do. Because I'm going to be like, always sounds like she has a sinus infection.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Basically 29 years, 30, 30 years. They're about my, they're basically my age. So I'm going to go with about 30 years.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
It's probably a red herring, but here is one of the frustrating things about this case. This is now unknowable, right? Unless somehow we're able to recover what's been lost, but this is gone now. We don't know.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And that's partly why I think there will always be people who are, unless they can know every aspect of a case, they're like, it was faulty or they were wrongfully convicted, X, Y, and Z. The thing is... There are always going to be unknowns in every single case. And while this is an incredibly frustrating unknown, it is actually not that unusual to have an unknown like this in a case.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Hi, Brett. That actually is completely accurate here because we are on episode four of West Memphis Three, and my mind is truly actually still wide open. I think we said this in episode one. I don't know how many episode ones we have at this point, but I went into this case truly not knowing what I thought because the
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Guys, I know I've said this before, but when we got started making this podcast and spending time researching these cases, true crime is not exactly easy for sleep. I honestly didn't think it would affect my sleep as much as it has. After we finish recording, I'm usually amped and up for another hour or so.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
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The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
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The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
today so i used to have no idea what to get my mom for mother's day especially when she hits me with the classic oh don't get me anything but i still want to give her something that feels special quince totally solved it for me everything is high quality feels super thoughtful and it's actually affordable now i don't overthink it i just go straight to quince and right now they have a very helpful tab that has all your best mother's day gifts
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
So much is reported, and we always know that the reporting doesn't always track the evidence. Episode four of, I don't know, 400, I'm still pretty open-minded. You? I don't know.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
I got the Italian leather hand-woven satchel. Hint, hint. Maybe someone should get that for me as well. But I got that for my mom and I'm so excited to give it to her because it is luxurious but without the price tag you would normally see. She is going to absolutely love everything about this bag.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Yeah, absolutely. As we enter into the next hour, we will tell you a lot of things within the timeline that may or may not have anything to do with this case. But because we don't know when the kids were murdered, we don't know when the cover up happened. We don't know a lot of things. We insert them into the timeline. Should they become relevant for some theories?
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And this is our whole point is to lay out all of the evidence for you. If we were prosecuting this case, there's going to be certain things in here that just don't fit into any sort of prosecution narrative. And you probably would leave it out.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
But because we're truly trying to figure out what's happening, we're going to have insertions of things within the timeline that take it with a grain of salt. It may not all fit into a perfect story. Like Brett said, there will be questions. And some of these facts may have nothing to do with the three boys here. Someone is questioning, what do you mean cover up?
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
I'm not talking about police covering up things or some larger conspiracy. Quite literally covering up the tracks because the boys were...
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
thrown into the water and staked down so that they wouldn't float up we know this based on how they are ultimately found so when i say cover up i mean not just killing the boys where they are and running there was some attempt to make it difficult to find them and in fact they were successful the boys are not found this night
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Though it seems clear that they are dead this night and they are found a day later. Let's go into the nine o'clock hour. Now it is dark. Ryan Clark goes with some friends to look for Chris Byers. This is like a community event, not like a search party with, you know, national professional search parties. These are just local neighbors.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And this is a fellow kid in the neighborhood who is coming to look for Chris Byers.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
now ryan and some friends they go into robin hood hills from the dead end side of the neighborhood remember the neighborhood butts up into this it's barely a forest really when you look at the aerial view now ryan did this because he thought that chris always played on the neighborhood side of the pipe as he was afraid to go across it when they were in the woods near the bayou they heard what sounded like five loud splashes in the water
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
They also heard what sounded like something moving through the brush. Ryan called out and asked if anyone was there. Remember, at this point, they're just thinking the boys are out playing. Maybe they got stuck. Maybe it's dark now. They can't find their way home. And so he calls out, but nobody responds back.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And so now the kids, they start getting scared and they run out of the woods, which frankly is exactly what I would do. And once they regroup outside of the woods, they went down to the pipe and they crossed it. They searched the other side of the woods. So this is the side that they think that Chris was too scared to cross. They don't actually think he should be on this side, but they run out.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
They're scared. They regroup. They're like, you know what? Let's go back in. That was silly of us to be scared. Let's go back in and search again. So this time they cross the pipes and they're searching for about 30 minutes before leaving and going home. But while they're near the pipe, they heard what they described as a gunshot.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
They did not see bikes at this point, which means that the killer had already put them in the bayou. Now, this is really interesting because with crossing the pipes, if the bikes were still there where they were spotted earlier, you would assume that they would come across the bikes.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
If they haven't, then these two bikes would have been thrown into the bayou at this point where they are later found. There are two bikes. We know there are three boys, three bodies. And they said that they heard five splashes. Could it have been boy, boy, boy, bike, bike?
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Yeah, I will know one thing. We know the location of this neighborhood in Robin Hood Hills is close to a truck stop, is close to an interstate. When people are, I would be, searching the woods pitch black, any loud noise is oftentimes described as a gunshot, whether it is in fact a gunshot or not. So I think it's noteworthy that they heard something loud.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
I guess we're belly flopping right in at this point because we're 10 minutes into recording, but the rest of you have the brilliance of our editor, Jason, who's able to cut out all that chitchat that so many of you despise. Don't worry. Nary a chitchat will happen in these 400 episodes. It's true. I'm kidding. There's going to be a lot of chitchat.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
They describe it as a gunshot, might have been a gunshot. It could have been a pipe hitting something like that. So I do think it's noteworthy they hear it. I wouldn't be thrown off by the fact that it's a gunshot just because I find that most people describe loud, sudden noises that they are not expecting as gunshots.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And again, if they are correct about the sign o'clock hour and what they hear and the brush Again, that whole crisscrossing of the neighborhood, this would have happened almost under their nose. If they were close enough to hear splashes, if they were close enough to hear brush moving, that means the killer heard Ryan and the friends calling out for the missing boys, that they were there.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, the way I think about this case is just all these crisscrosses. And of course, there's these tiny little holes and they really are tiny based on the timeline and based on the number of people who see things firsthand. And yet we know there are holes and somehow the boys or killers are completely in these pockets of holes that are just so far unknowable.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
okay so now around 9 19 this is so interesting because there are so many parents at play here and we know we've heard of terry hobbs terry hobbs is stepfather of stevie terry hobbs and stevie's sister amanda go to pick up pam who is at work terry goes inside and uses the phone to call the police and report stevie missing
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Now, what's really interesting about this, and people fixate on this fact because it is kind of strange, though he's going in to call Stevie in as missing to the police. He neglects to tell Pam, Stevie's mother, that Stevie is missing. It's actually Amanda who's waiting in the car who tells Pam when Pam shows up. And this is so heartbreaking. Pam's finishing her shift.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
She comes into the car being picked up by her family. She has two pieces of candy in her hand, one for Stevie, one for Amanda, for her kids. And only at that point does she find out from Amanda that Stevie's actually missing. Now, some have speculated that Terry made the phone call from the restaurant to prevent the police from coming to his house. That's actually probably not the case at all.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
The Hobbs didn't have a home phone, so he couldn't have made the call from his house. And by the way, if he's a suspect, they're going to go to his house. So calling from the restaurant doesn't really throw them, quote unquote, off the scent so much.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And also imagine if he didn't do this, he's probably deeply worried. And knowing this conversation isn't going to be a short one. It's not going to be, hey, Pam, Stevie's missing. I'm going to go call the cops. It's probably going to be a scene. It's probably going to be... A fight. It's probably going to be like wailing and gnashing of teeth from Pam completely understandably.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And he may be thinking, I got to report this first. Like, I don't have 30 minutes. I got to do this. And then there's no way she can't find out. This is all going to happen after the fact. Like, it's almost like going into go mode. I had to do this checkoff list, this checkoff list. And there's no way he'd be able to get to the phone.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
I wouldn't let him pass me if that were my child in order to let him go report it. So I know it is strange, but also I imagine myself in that position, man or not, that is probably one of the toughest conversations. It's one of those conversations that before you open your mouth, the other person probably knows something terrible is going to come out of your mouth.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
So at 9.24, same officer, Regina Meeks, she's apparently done with her house egging investigation. There wasn't much to investigate. It was an abandoned house. She doesn't find anything else. She responds to the missing person's report filed by Michael Moore's mother, Dana. So at this point, she's gotten all the calls this night, I think, in this neighborhood.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And at 924, she's now responding to the missing persons call. Remember, she had gone up to Robin Hood Hills about an hour earlier, not really seen anything, breathed in all those mosquitoes, and then got called away to something else. Now, at this point, all three boys are getting called in missing. It's looking much more like something is bad.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
This is not just the boys forgot what time it is and they, you know, are coming home late.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Exactly. And we've spent, I think, a couple episodes now on the day of the murder. And hopefully we'll get through the day today. No promises. We are getting to kind of the twilight hour. The sun is setting. It is not yet dark. It will be dark soon. And the boys have not been sighted for about an hour. At around 8 o'clock, Jennifer Bearden will say that she called Damien back.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Remember, Jennifer is one of Damien's girlfriends. She is an alibi. But she says that when she calls him at about the 8 o'clock hour, he's not home. So she calls back around 9.20 and he is home at that point. And she talks to Damien until she needed to get off the phone because of her grandmother. Remember, back in this time, again, probably no call waiting. There's one line in the home.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
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The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
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The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
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The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And this is obviously, if this is the right time, the right hour, and they are actually seeing Domini and Damien, it's incredibly important. But as we also know, Damien doesn't have a car and he's often with Domini and they like walk and roam the area. So, I mean, this is incredibly, incredibly interesting. I mean, what if they had stopped?
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
What if they had stopped and they'd gotten in or they had spoken to them, maybe seen them up close, maybe instead of mud, they saw blood. I mean, there's just so many ifs because we have this clown car of people, so many witnesses potentially, and another kind of lost opportunity of more information.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
But again, at the time, it's kind of like, how would they possibly know that this would be important?
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
If someone's on it, then it can't be used by someone else. Now, when she asked Damien where he'd gone because she tried to call him earlier, he said that Jason's mother had taken them somewhere, but didn't tell Jennifer where or what they did. Now, Jennifer's timeline will come into question later.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
So this brings us past the midnight hour into May 6th. The boys are still missing. There's been kind of some neighborhood searches, but not anything formal. Not by like, you know, this is not a national search party coming in yet. So at 6 a.m., Todd Moore, who's Michael's dad, he's a trucker. And he returns from work, and that's when he first finds out that Michael is missing. Not unusual.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Cell phones were not a thing at this point. If he's cross-country driving, he doesn't know anything until he arrives. Whenever you have kids missing, of course the parents are going to be suspects. Here we have Michael's dad, John Mark Byers, is his stepfather. There, when the boys go missing, but Michael's father himself is missing.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
out of town doesn't even know that this is all going on for 12 hours or so now several witnesses had seen what looked like two sets of bike tracks heading into the woods which sports with what we know about the boys we know that they had two bikes and one of the boys was probably riding on the back of another bike So they become a focus of the search.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Neighbors and searchers use dirt bikes and ATVs to zip around these woods, up and down the banks. I can completely see this, by the way, in this area. People have ATVs. They're going to whip them out. The first chance they get, they probably will where we live as well, Brett.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
This is not good for preserving the crime scene because any bike tracks, any sort of evidence that may be left behind is going to get ripped up by police. the ATVs that are zipping up and down these banks. And especially remember, this 10-mile bayou, it only really fills up with water when it's rained, which means the ground around is going to be marshier than normal.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And when it's marshy or when it's kind of soggy, it's more prone to being reworked whenever new tire tracks go over them. So... Here we have these ATVs and God knows other dirt bikes just rolling around looking for these boys, creating their own tracks. And the police, of course, are going to realize this is a crime scene later.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
So when they're trying to suss out what is actually the crime scene, what are the tracks from the crime scene, it's really difficult to figure out what is evidence of the crime and what's just part of the search party.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
So at some point between 8.08 and 8.29, Regina Meek, the officer, shows up at the Byers residence. She takes the report of the missing kids and Moore tells her that she saw the boys heading towards Robin Hood Hills and Officer Meek heads that way. By the way, this truly is like a small town because Officer Meek is going to show up just about all over town.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Yeah, absolutely. Now, one searcher, Tim Cotton, would say that the area north of the pipe smelled like blood. And that's like blood curdling kind of description. If that is, in fact, what he smelled, it's very possible that. We know that a lot of blood was probably washed off at some point because not a lot of blood was found.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
But the manner in which the boys were murdered would have resulted in a lot of blood. And just to think about this area, this also shows you how dense this area is. This is not like a widespread area. This is a very small area. And especially with kind of this mosquito infested marshy area, that kind of humidity is like a blanket. The atmosphere feels like a blanket.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
So smells do stagnate and they sit. So if there was blood, I can imagine that in fact they did smell blood. But what a just chilling description of what the air smelled like. At 1.30 p.m., Steve Jones is a juvenile correction officer with Crittenden County, and he's in the Robin Hood woods when he sees a shoe floating in a diversion ditch.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
When he sees this shoe, he becomes concerned that maybe the boys drowned. Maybe they slipped off a pipe. Kind of strange for all three to slip, but maybe one slipped and then the others were trying to help him, and instead they all fell into the water and somehow drowned.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
He meets with Detective Brian Ridge at a place called the Devil's Den, and this ditch is bordered by eight feet drops that's dry, except when the rain swells, as had happened recently, as we've been discussing. He tells Detective Ridge, hey, I see this shoe down there. This doesn't look good. Maybe one of them fell in there or they all fell in there.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
So Ridge would try and slide down this ridge with these eight foot drops to recover the shoe. But instead of like a controlled climb down, this really is just a drop. He basically falls and tumbles down the side of this ridge and he slips up.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
falls into the water that was not his intent he wanted to like controlled walk down and try to reach for the shoe but essentially slips falls all the way down and fortuitously falls into the water and it's fortuitous because this is where he makes a tragic discovery
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
I don't know if she's the only officer there. Around that night. I mean, she's at Bojangles. She is like, you know, dealing with small calls, big calls, missing kids. And she's doing the search by herself. But you will see how this is not only such a tight timeline. This feels like there's crisscross of all the same people.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And in fact, we knew that a lot of the searchers were right around this area. They were on this bank. They reported being right around here. So we know that people were searching this area. And that's why it was so fortuitous that Detective Ridge quite literally fell into the water. None of these searchers jumped into the water. There was no reason to think to do that.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Because if the boys had fallen in by accident, you would think they'd float up.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And by the way, I mean, law enforcement officers try to train for everything. You can't possibly train for a situation like this. A lot of due credit to him. He could have just said, all right, let's wait. You know, first of all, this is one of the most horrific things I can ever imagine, quite literally falling onto a victim's body. And that's how you discover it.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And odds are the other boys are going to be married nearby. He could have easily said, all right, let's bring in cranes, let's dam this out, and then let's drain it. And we're going to find a bunch of things, which they ultimately do. He doesn't do that. He is there. He's in the moment. It seems clear at this point that the boys are dead.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
So he's not looking for survivors, but he gets on his hands and knees to search for them because... It's an incredibly human thing to do, but also one that he didn't. I don't know. I don't know that I could have done it is basically what I'm saying, because the tragedy of what he knows he's about to find is right in front of him.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And somehow with the crisscross of police and friends and parents, it seems like the boys are there. And somehow in this like amazing crisscross, they simply die. seep by where the crisscross have holes. It's almost impossible for them to have slipped through. But this entire case, as you listen to the timeline, seems like just how did this murder occur?
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
yeah i i want to go back to what you said about removing the boys remember you know there are protocols obviously when you come across a crime scene but this is just so horrendous i don't think anything quite prepares you to see young young children not only murdered but treated in such a horrific manner and they're still just young kids right i mean they're still just eight-year-old boys at this point they're naked in the water there's nothing of course that
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
detective ridge can do for them in terms of saving their lives but we see this we saw this in the john bonnet case right when john bonnet was found by her father brought upstairs what did her mother do throw herself on top of the body because there are just things that should not be little children this should not ever happen to little children i can imagine on a human level how difficult it would have been to just maintain where they are and not take them out of this horrific situation which was the water
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Now, that afternoon, Vicki Hutchinson shows up at the Marion Police Station. She's reporting there because she's been accused of petty theft from the truck stop where she works. She brought her son Aaron with her, and Aaron was described as best friends with the boys.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And an officer, Donald Bray, spoke to Aaron while his mother was in another room dealing with this, like, petty theft check issue that she had. Bray would say that Aaron told him things about the murder that he could not have known, including that the boys were drowned and that they were hogtied.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
We mentioned how technically they were not hogtied, but if you didn't know specifically, it's kind of close enough, right? In terms of, I think hogtied is actually... Hands to hands, legs to legs, and then hands and legs together or something like that. But what an unusual thing. This afternoon, the boys had really just been discovered.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
How did these boys get away from eyesight for long enough to be murdered? And Regina Meek will come up over and over tonight, as you will see. Now, when...
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
There hasn't been a press conference about the state of which they were found. Now, Aaron would eventually give several interviews to the police. But as he is a young boy, each of his stories to the police become wilder and wilder. It becomes more fantastical and it's really hard to know if you can believe anything he says.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Not because he means to lie, but because he's a young boy and this is probably the most...
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
traumatic and exciting thing that has possibly happened in this town and in their lives and he knows these boys well take that for what it's worth but we do have potentially someone knowing information about the murders before they become public and that's obviously very significant if true meanwhile steve jones tells officer james sudbury that the crimes appear to have occult overtones
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
and that there is only one person he can think of who might be involved, Damien Echols. Really quick, note the timeline. I know a lot of people have questioned, did the police create or make this case number ending in 666 because they had this narrative that they wanted to fit the occult? They already had their eyes on Damien and then they wanted to make this all about the occult.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
So then they changed the number and it should have been like 665, but instead they made it case number 666. Note that they opened the case and the case number was 666 several hours, maybe a day, before the occult or Damien Echols was mentioned by any witnesses or by anyone reporting anything at this point. So I do think the timeline is interesting here.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
officer meek walks down to the pipe in robin hood hills she goes to the pipe across the bayou probably arriving just as it's getting truly dark remember we said that by about 8 30 now the sun's been setting for about 45 minutes at this point twilight has gone the glow has gone and now it's about to be dark And what happens when it gets dark, when it's warm outside in the South? Mosquitoes.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
So that night, the police put out a bulletin over the police radio, which, of course, the press was monitoring, especially of a case with a triple murder of young children. And the police say over the police radio, this department has a case of three male juveniles being abducted. They were found with their hands tied behind their backs and their genitals had been removed with a sharp instrument.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Their bodies had been dropped in a remote area. Any department with a case similar to this, please advise this department. Attention, Inspector Gitchell, all information appreciated. Note when this particular statement is put out, the night of May 6th. Why is this important?
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
If you've been following the timeline, you note that there are certain errors about the state of the boys' bodies in this statement. One that really jumps out is it just says their genitals had been removed. That's actually not what happened. We know that only one of the boys' genitals had been removed.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
This is an error, whether intentional or unintentional, but this is going to be important because now this information is out there. Now, as far as the public is concerned, all of the boys had been mutilated in their genital area.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And that's exactly what she reported seeing this night. The mosquitoes, she said, were tremendous. And there were so many of them. She felt like she was, quote, breathing in mosquitoes. Brett and I live in a place that's very like this. It's marshy. It's swampy. And actually, right now, we are recording this in March. It's just beginning to get warm.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
As you can see, we always say the timeline is everything. And by the time we get through timeline, a lot of questions are cleared up. There are still a lot of questions here. A lot of these things are still going to be unknowable.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
But I think the timeline that we have thus far, as faulty as it may be, as we've already stated, because there are certain things that just couldn't have happened at the same time. People misremember things. The timeline is based on contested testimonies. We know that. But even with a faulty timeline, Things are becoming clear in terms of when this may have happened and who we can rule out.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
We still don't know, based on this timeline, who is ruled in. But I think there's beginning to be some sort of a who cannot have had done this. And I just continually go back to this. It's almost impossible that this murder occurred in the manner that it did. But it did. And that's why I think it's fascinated so many people for so long.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And it will continue to fascinate because there will continue to be questions. And we're telling you now, we're not holding back anything. There will be questions that are unanswered. And that is going to be the reality of this case. And we have to come to our theories and our conclusions, despite the fact that there are complete holes.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
We are called to do this every day in our lives as well, not just in these types of cases. And so this is unsatisfactory in that we're not going to be able to pull out some great piece of information on episode 15. Like, no one knew this before. We're not an investigative podcast. And that investigation, I think, has long sailed because that evidence is gone by this point. So keep that in mind.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Don't be frustrated by it. Accept it as a reality of the case file here. And we have to move through it, recognizing that there are huge holes that we cannot know. But the things that we do know, we actually can make a lot of very intelligent guesses of what is possibly true and what cannot be true. So with that said, like, please keep coming back.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Don't be frustrated, but also keep in mind that there's a lot of unknowable in this case.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
It truly feels like you can breathe in mosquitoes. And this is noteworthy, of course, because mosquitoes bite, mosquitoes leave marks, but mosquitoes are attracted to breath. And you have breath when you're breathing. You don't have breath when you're no longer breathing. So this is going to be very important as we try to determine what hour the murders take place.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Absolutely. So also in this eight o'clock hour, of course, it's going to be contested in terms of what the timeline is. But Terry Hobbs joins John Mark Byers in looking for the boys. So the two dads, two stepdads are out canvassing the neighborhood looking for the missing boys.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Popeye's? No. Is it Popeye's? There's a Popeye's, but there's another.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
I know a lot of you, your heads might be exploding right now when you're thinking she didn't go in with some sort of a forensic kit to get blood off the wall so that she can test the DNA, et cetera, et cetera. This is all hindsight. At the time, clearly she is the only one, like I think the beat cop in this neighborhood responding to all these calls.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
And what you're supposed to do is respond to things and you have to prioritize. Right now, because they're saying, well, this man, he seems to be having a mental issue. What she's probably hearing is, okay, there's blood on him. The mental issue probably indicates that he is having some sort of event, which is why who goes into a restroom and starts spewing blood everywhere?
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
If you're trying to wash it off and not leave a mark, that's not what you think. She's not thinking anything's happened to the boys. She has this missing boys report, but in no way were they thinking that there had been a murder. They're thinking these boys are just... playing, you know, well after dark. They're going to show up as most missing children cases actually end up.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
Nothing nefarious happened. The kids lost track of time. They're at someone's house and they end up showing up. So no instance does she think that there's actually a homicide to be investigated. And because this man has left, the danger has left the Bojangles. She has a lot she needs to do that night. And unless she has another indication that she needs to be doing something further,
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
There hasn't actually been a crime, right? Bojangles is a public open to the public restaurant. He's allowed to go in. It's not a crime to go into the restroom of an opposite sex. Creating a mess is not a crime either. You know, so there's all of these things. If you suspected that he was a murderer, you could probably hold him for something. But all of these things kind of.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
in this town around this time it's not really something you would pursue for purposes of we're gonna find that guy we're gonna arrest him hold him overnight go get a warrant etc etc because he seems to just be kind of a passerby who has left a mess and the worst thing he did was now they have to clean up all this mess in the bathroom which Unfortunately, they do.
The Prosecutors
302. West Memphis 3 Part 4
So I'm saying that in defense of her because she's not being negligent here. They get so many calls like this. They can't possibly do an entire forensic analysis of the scene when it's not technically a crime scene at this point.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Something that should probably be obvious to most people. I know we cover a lot of these types of cases and they're gruesome, but I've never decapitated someone and I don't know the amount of force it would take. And so if I don't know the amount of force it would take, likely I would not use enough force. So this person who is leaving behind a relatively clean cut, likely
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
has some understanding of the force it would take in order to decapitate someone. I'm not saying that this person has decapitated someone before, but because this is an unsolved case, I'm trying to think of all the avenues of which to understand the perpetrator. We've talked about this in other cases before Delphi had the perpetrator caught and convicted.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
thank God, but we had talked about how that person likely knew the area. This person may have a lot of experience cutting meat and bone. Who would have that kind of experience? Someone who maybe hunts, right? It doesn't have to be a person that they're practicing on. And I note this because there's no hesitation. You got to go with it if this is what you're going to do.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
It takes a lot of force because we're not just talking about skin. We're talking about muscle, fat, bone. This is incredibly gruesome. But the fact that they've described it as a clean cut, however clean it is, I think the point of saying it's clean is to note that this is someone who kind of knows what they're doing, kind of know what is involved in order to have to carry out something so...
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Unusual. This is not like a skill that most people have. Thank goodness. And so thinking about who this person is to be able to execute this and have at least the knowledge of how to do so in a way that does not look completely unprofessional, for lack of a better word.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
You can't use words that I can't understand. Well, there's so many words I don't understand right now, but thanks. Brett, thank you so much. Those of you who are listening, this is an amazing feat with a one month old. We are recording back to back nights and we'll see how this goes. Every day is an adventure is all I have to say.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
That was my exact thought. We haven't talked about that particular fact, but I was like, man, that is really, really unnecessary. If all you're trying to do is to take the bullet with you, there's so many things you can do. You can get a quote unquote burner gun, you know, just go get a gun. That's kind of nondescript. And then throw that gun away so it can't be traced to you. Whatever.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
What have you steal a gun? I don't know. But clearly they had thought about it ahead of time. So it would be strange if what you're thinking about is I want to make sure I leave behind no trace of the gun. Ah, I'll bring along a very large knife or saw to remove the body part in which I stick that bullet. Yeah. It seems like if you had that much time to plan, that wouldn't be the first step.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Although I agree, there's no obvious reason why you would cut the head other than perhaps the bullet is there. That gunpowder residue gives us a lot of information. And this person, if they know, I mean, they seem to know things about saws and guns and decapitation.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And if they know about guns, should know that gunpowder is another thing that a gun can leave behind in terms of not wanting to be traced or not wanting to know how Russell died.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
It seems like the head was taken because the person wanted to take the head, which is something that is difficult for a rational person to wrap their head around, but it may go to why this person killed in the first place.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
That's just such a sad fact. Clearly, there was some sort of altercation because of the bruised hands, and he, by all accounts, seems to have been trying to protect his wife. What's really interesting here, of course, is he was close enough to his wife to have her hair in his wounds, yet...
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Whatever happened, it seems like they had come prepared to kill Russell, whether or not they prepared to kill him there at that point in time or not. But why not go ahead and kill both of them at the same time? Why seemingly have Shirley still be alive and taken away?
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And I say that because if they had both been killed at the same time, we likely would have seen both of their blood there, but we don't have Shirley's DNA there. So that is very interesting because even though something went wrong, According to the perpetrator's plan, they still maybe all along intended to take Shirley away, to kidnap her first and then to kill her eventually.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
So it seems like based on the order of events that we're seeing unfold through these wounds, Shirley may have. been the target or at least surely there was some reason for shirley to be the one taken away and probably taken away alive but we've already noted kind of the most obvious reason women are kidnapped there was no sexual assault on her And that is incredibly interesting.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Maybe it got thwarted. But again, this was a very long crime in terms of the timeline. She was left alive after there was some cover up and decapitation of her husband, carried away, weighted down. hammered in the head twice, then thrown overboard 15 minutes away boat ride from her home. So if they had wanted to do something else to her, they had the time to do it. They just didn't.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And now this brings us to May, 2015. Sheriff Howard Sills revealed that they did have a person of interest in the case. Now he did not give much information other than say that it was someone they had interviewed before who made statements that were not completely truthful. That doesn't give us a lot of information.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
It sounds more like maybe they were going back over their files and notice inconsistencies in a statement rather than something they found at the scene of the crime that ties them to someone. But it is someone known to the police who they have already spoken with. And what that indicates, of course, is that there's not enough information to make an arrest.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
So it could be we think something's there, but more investigation needs to happen. Now, around the same time, it was revealed that a man was seen walking on the Dermons' property around the time of when we think the murders happened. Now, authorities reportedly identified and interviewed this man, but no arrest was made. And it's not clear if the person of interest they noted that they had
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
is the same as the person who was seen walking on the property. And then that's it. Nothing. Nothing happens in this case for about a decade. In April or May of 2024, last year, if we're listening to this in January, Sheriff Sills confirmed to WSB-TV2 that he obtained a piece of clothing that belonged to Russell Derman that did have DNA from an unknown individual on it.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And the evidence had been sent to... our friends at Othram Labs for further testing. So this is a big deal because we had talked about how the perpetrators had been pretty careful and seemingly left very little behind, but they did have DNA. And Othram was able to find the DNA and they recommended the evidence be sent to Sorenson Forensics in Utah, who also found DNA.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Now, the reason these labs are sending DNA around is is very important. So we know that technology, especially in the DNA space, is rapidly changing. Every day there are new advances. There are things that we can do today we couldn't do yesterday. There are things we can do today we couldn't do a decade ago. But it's still not a magic button.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Just because they have found the presence of DNA may not necessarily mean they can do anything with it now. And so Othram Labs has been pretty vocal. They've been on our show before. They're pretty vocal about the fact that The most important thing for them is not to use up DNA if they don't think with a very high level of certainty that they're able to get something usable out of it.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Because every time you test DNA, you use it up and then it's gone forever and you can't take advantage of advancements in DNA testing in the future. And so they're sending it elsewhere for confirmation. You know, the easiest thing to do if you were just a business was just to keep it, right? and run the sample and take all the glory for yourself.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
But the reason it's going to multiple places is likely this is like very trace amounts of DNA. And they want to make sure that what they are seeing can be confirmed by someone else. Now, Sheriff Sills confirmed that they're looking for additional DNA to run it through the national database or through genealogical data to identify a suspect.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
In other words, there's DNA, but there's more you can do with it. They may not be able to, say, have a profile of the DNA today, but perhaps they can find another DNA and be able to match against it and see what they have now. All to say is there is DNA, but I don't know that we have enough to definitively understand who that DNA belongs to just yet. Now, this wasn't it though.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
The police also confirmed that they had new leads deriving from cellular data. They said, we have utilized different techniques and different methods of analyzing cellular data, different devices that may have been in the area during the murder and after the fact. This is really interesting because obviously this is coming like a decade after the murders. Why is that?
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Well, just like cell phone analysis, we've had cell phone analysis experts on our other show, Legal Briefs. You should go listen to it. That's also not something very clear cut where a cell phone company just prints out a list of like suspects for you. Like AT&T doesn't just say, hey, these were people at the Dermans house. They probably are suspects for you.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Rather, it's kind of a complex puzzle where you are doing methods of elimination and creating basically different puzzles that never existed before to try and see if you can tease out something from the cell phone data. And cell phone data analysis has gotten more advanced as well in those years.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Now, at the same time, the FBI increased the reward from $5,000 to $20,000 in order to solve this case, which may indicate that They have information, they have new leads, but they also know someone probably knows something. And that person needs to come forward in order for them to connect all those dots to make an arrest.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And in addition to that $20,000, the Putnam County Sheriff's Office is also offering a $5,000 reward on top of it. So in other words, if you have information, you could stand to gain $25,000 if it leads to an arrest in this case.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
So this particular fact is really chilling to me because while it's possible the person could have rented a boat, I don't know that how careful they are. That would be the necessarily way they would dispose of a body if they didn't have a boat themselves, because we obviously know that those types of records are traceable.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And so like eventually there's only so many marinas on a lake you could rent a boat from. And police can go through those records and kind of see who rented a boat around this time period. You have to give an ID, for example, because you can't just drive a boat. You have to have a boating license.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And so that leaves behind a record that could narrow the pool of suspects, which leads me to believe that the boat that was used likely was not rented, but belonged to or was borrowed by the person or persons who committed this crime. And why this is chilling to me is while Maybe they drove cross-country with a boat that they owned to commit this crime.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
More likely, they live in this area and have a boat. That's chilling to me because this is what we talked about, an idyllic neighborhood where it's very small population-wise. And it's idyllic. And the neighbors all know each other. And what we said, there's 20,000 people in the town. And you have to have...
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
a lot of means really to live on this lake and so the possibility that this was committed by someone who is from this area i don't know it turns my blood cold because again the germans are not people who are hated in this town they're loved in this town so this could have been carried out by someone who knew them and they liked and the fact that there's no forced entry i think tends to lean towards the fact that they thought this was someone they knew or liked and would open a door to
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
I just get so carried away with my thoughts. I'm so sorry. That's the whole point of the podcast. And I'm not the only one who thinks that because the authorities believe that the killer was likely someone who did know the Dermons or at least had some level of familiarity with their home and that this crime was likely personal for a lot of the reasons we've already talked about.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Local police and the FBI have also disclosed that it's possible, perhaps even likely, that there was more than one killer. Now, it's been reported that the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit provided the following description of the perpetrator. It's likely a male due to the physical strength required to carry out the crime and is likely someone who likes guns and knives or has familiarity with them.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And we know that's not exactly groundbreaking because of the way the crime was committed. Now, a lot of you in the chat have already said this since the first episode. You've speculated that perhaps these are the Dermons' children who are involved because there's some sort of inheritance angle.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Well, of course, they were on a suspect list pretty early on just because if you have a motive, the police are going to investigate it. But they've all been cleared. All of the three surviving children lived outside of the immediate areas and had alibis.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
polygraph tests voluntarily and they passed them and this crime really doesn't make sense from an inheritance angle because the business had already been turned over to them and if they were waiting to get some sort of large sum when their parents passed away They were in their mid 80s. It wasn't going to be much longer.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
There's no indication that the three children had maybe, you know, pressing money troubles where they needed the inheritance right away. And again, there are ways to commit that type of crime.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
much less gruesomely and why would you want to take your mom away fully conscious knowing what's going on and kill her elsewhere why not do it in their sleep at night when they won't know what's happening and that's all that's required all that's required is for them to be dead for the inheritance to pass on this crime was something much more than just wanting them dead there was something
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
that I don't quite understand, but it's not just simply wanting to end Shirley and Russell's lives. And when you have the profile of the person being someone who likely knew the Dermons and had familiarity with the home, I feel like that also cuts against that Eldest son who was murdered back in 2000, because remember, the Germans didn't move to this house or even to this area until 2000.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And so it's unlikely that this was not a childhood home, for example, where the son who was wrapped up in kind of the drug world had friends who hung out at their home. He was really out of their lives by the time the Dermons moved to Lake Oconee. And it's unlikely that his group of friends would have known the Dermons' life in Oconee because of how estranged they were at that time.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And so this may have been someone that they knew just around in town. And because they're retired, their adult children didn't live with them. So again, this is not one of those situations where maybe it's a friend of one of their children because this is their sole home. They're empty nesters. They didn't have like children living in their basement who were ne'er-do-wells.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
That wasn't the case with their adult children. And of course, there's always the scary possibility that this was just a random act of violence or even a serial killer. But while this is a theory that sounds really interesting, it's not likely since there was no forced entry here. The lack of forced entry, I think, says a lot about who may have been the perpetrator.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And I think it points to someone that at least surely knew. We'll talk more about our theories, but I do think surely may have been awake when perhaps Russell was still asleep.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
So I kind of already talked about that earlier with the cartel. I think you have to explore that option because of the fact that Russell was decapitated and that you have like weighted cinder blocks. I mean, this is like the way they were killed and concealed really seems like out of a movie. Seems like it's out of a mob movie.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
But when you dig a little bit deeper, it really doesn't have the underpinnings of a typical mob or cartel type of hit. So while I think it's worth exploring, other than the fact that Russell's decapitated and cinder blocks are weighing down, surely nothing else really indicates the mob did this. And again. The mob lets people know what they do.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And we've also talked about how when, you know, one additional person knows about a crime, it's really hard to keep that a secret. You know what happens in a mob? Lots of people know about lots of different things and there are lots of rumors. And you know what else happens in a mob? A lot of people are running from the law.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And what do they typically do when they were trying to look for a break or get themselves a better deal?
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
give up all the information they know even if it's just hearsay even if it's just rumor and so the fact that we haven't heard anything about this coming from the mob there's no indication that there's any ties of a mob or the cartel to the dermans and it's not even clear why they would target the dermans for me means that the mob hit angle is an unlikely theory
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And this goes back to the one or two or multiple perpetrator thing. This is really gruesome too, but a head's really bulky and heavy. And so if you're carrying out an 80-something-year-old woman who is going against her will... One person, I guess, could maybe throw her over their shoulder and carry a head.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
But likely it's more than one person or they made multiple trips and they're making multiple trips in like open field to the boat in the dock in a cul-de-sac where people can see. That's really risky, too. Why not just leave with the thing you want? seemingly surely, why go back for the head? I don't know.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And so that kind of points to multiple people for me, or at least something very calculated about it, because going back for the head or taking the head period exposes so much risk to the person or persons who are doing this.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And another theory that's along those lines is that it's a random act of violence, kind of for the same reasons that Brett just said. It seems unlikely this is a random act of violence because you'd have to get in a boat probably in the middle of the night and just roll up to a dock and...
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And hope that the person will open the door to you because there's no forced entry and then decide to carry out this random act of violence. It's a lot of effort for a random act of violence. Random acts of violence typically happen like in a crowded urban area. You're like, I just am breaking into this house.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
It takes a lot of effort to decide to break into this house and kill these two old people in this very complicated, involved environment.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And the intentionality behind all of this crime, I think leads me to believe what you just said, that this is someone they knew because we've talked a lot about this boating, but let's break it down really quick for those who may not know much about boating. Boating is,
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
is loud it takes effort and it's hard to navigate a lake because there's not road signs especially at night likely many of the lights that usually are on during the day are off because they don't need to be on this is not a highway where people are traveling so the lake doesn't have to be well lit at night and certainly if you yourself don't have a boat like the dermans didn't there's no reason to leave on the lights on your dock
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
So likely it was pitch black. They're having to navigate it. They must know this area so well that they know which dock to pull up to. Difficult to do unnoticed because of the sound of the motor and as well as the fact that houses look different from the back than the front. You know, this house, if you look it up online, probably you see the front of it.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
But the back view of it facing the lake is going to look different as well as the fact that you can't just jump out of your boat and start running towards the house. You need your boat to get away. You know what you need to do? You need to tie your boat up.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
So what that means is no matter how fast you're going and likely if you're trying to evade detection, especially in a cove, you're going to go slow. Why? Because if you go even above, like basically swimming, speed, you're going to create waves. Waves cause other boats to push up against their docks and cause a banging noise.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And it just creates more reason for people to look out the window for you. So likely you're doing a no wake type of boating. So you're no waking across this area going very slow. And then even if you're going slow, you have to slow down even more in order to
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
dock your boat correctly without running into it causing more of a you know disruption or hurting your boat or hurting the dock and then you have to jump out and you have to tie your boat to the dock and usually you tie it in more than one place because a boat floats usually tied in the front and in the back All things that take time having you exposed on an open dock for all to see.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And then you turn around and walk up to the house to commit your crime. And then in the heat of whatever you've done, you're taking a head, you're taking an old lady, and you're throwing them in your boat. You still have to untie your boat. Push off the dock. Probably no wake out of there. And then hit your high speed and drive 15 minutes away.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
That level of intentionality just to involve the boat makes me really veer away from that random act of violence. And that's why I really don't think this is a random act of violence or a mistake even. Because they had to know how to approach this doc. They may have been scoping this out for a while.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
A few things strike me with her manner of death. The use of that hammer, first of all, it's very personal because in order to be struck with a hammer, you have to be within arm's length of a person, probably less because if you're thinking about kind of the lever of a hand. You're really within like an elbow's length away from the person.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And remember, one of the things from this year that the police said they have a new lead on, not just the DNA, but they said there was new cell phone analysis. Now, this confuses me a little bit because likely they already knew all the phones that were in the area. They said something kind of vague, like there's a new way of analyzing to see which phones were there.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
I wonder if it's not so much a cell phone dump where it's like, oh, well, previously we had these 40 numbers who were in the area. Now let's just go through them again. Rather, I wonder if it's something more like maybe they've made an arrest in another case and they got access to someone's phone and they noticed that that person has lots of pictures.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
of the Dermons house, for example, or they for some reason had a Google search history and it showed up that they kept looking up things about the Dermons house or the dock or whatever, something that just seemed strange. I wonder if it's more that that they've gained information that they didn't previously have rather than they're going back to analyze a cell phone dump or a geofence warrant.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Otherwise, I don't understand how the cell phone analysis is new here. But all of these things indicate to me that this is done by someone who is familiar with them. But even with that, we have so many unanswered questions.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And the other thing is when you hear blunt force trauma, many things could have caused that. If she stumbled upon, say, a robbery, they could have accidentally swung at her or she could have fallen down. She is incredibly old, right? She's pretty frail compared to someone who could have the dexterity to, say, decapitate her husband. And so it wouldn't take something like a hammer to take her out.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
No, I think you're really honing in on kind of what may have happened here. And I think it may be possible that it's even more attenuated than, oh, I know your son or something like that. It could be as simple as, I go to your church. We know that they were really involved in their community church and they were a friendly couple in town.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
They may just even know, but this also goes towards the planning and the targeting of the Dermans. They may know what the Dermans are involved in and know the right things in order to gain that level of familiarity. Like, hey, weren't you involved in the choir at, you know, so-and-so community church? My mom sings with you.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Something like that, even if it's not true, which may indicate why it's been so hard to track them down because the Dermans may have had enough familiarity to say, yeah, come on. Come on in, sweetheart. Let me grab the phone for you so you can call your mom to come get you because your boat broke down.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
But they're not actually known to them because this was all fabricated because they knew enough about the Germans in order to say the right things to create that level of familiarity.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Yeah. And the the ransom angle, while interesting at first, is less interesting because both of them are dead. You need someone to demand the ransom from. Right. And so the money, like we said, is mostly with them. And it's not clear that they were going to reach out, say, to one of the kids who live out of the area. They're not even close by. You would think you want to leave the husband alive.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
So you have someone to demand the ransom from who has immediate access to their bank account, for example, rather than You know, these kids who maybe have to wait for an inheritance before they can turn over the money that is being demanded. So the ransom is really would be a bizarre way to go about it. And there's no indication they didn't leave any notes behind.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
You could probably overcome her with your own hands. But they went the added step of a hammer. And because of the hammer, you don't typically rob a place with a hammer, right? Like you don't typically see people like rob a bank, for example, saying, give me all your money or sticking through their hoodie. I have a hammer. No, you should carry a gun.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
For example, there was no attempt at even requesting a ransom. And she was found 10 days later.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Now, one thing, because this case is so mind boggling and there are so many just unanswered questions in terms of why so many weapons are used, why are they killed in different manners, why the attempts to conceal, but then not really to conceal, you know, why the gun and then the saw or the knife and then a hammer and then the boat, all these different elements. I do think this was very planned.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
I do think the Germans were the targets for it. The question that I don't know the answer to is why. And one possibility that just throwing out there, because I think you have to think of all angles in order to try and think outside the box, especially when we seem to be in a year in which this case probably can be solved if someone comes forward with more information.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
is I wonder if the person they're looking for has essentially deeply troubled issues and the Dermons weren't really the targets per se. They were stand-ins for the targets. There's this psychology term that you project your emotions onto someone else. So you're not really angry at Miss Susie who looks just like your mother and has always been loving to you.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
You're really mad at your mom who's never been loving to you. And so kind of in this hysteric state of, basically take out all of your anger on someone else, on the person who actually has been nothing but loving to you. So it's possible that the Dermans have been loving to this person, maybe even just in passing, maybe just at church.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
They always make sure to invite them over for lunch, but the person has never taken them up on it or something like that. They're like the parents or grandparents this person has always wanted. And for some reason, they have this utter pain in their life that fixates around Shirley specifically. And it's not sexual.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
I don't think it's necessarily sexual, but rather more of the caregiver loving stand in that perhaps this person is incredibly angry about because there seems to be no reason in which any of the ire that is poured out on this poor couple is deserved. I wonder if all of this ire is real in the perpetrator's mind.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
It was just projected on the wrong people, but the Dermans were in fact the targets of this person. That's the only way I can make sense of this because I don't think that the Dermans did any shady business or did anything to make themselves vulnerable to this type of an attack. But I do think whoever attacked them meant to attack them, thought a lot about it.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And there's a lot of interesting things about the way they decided to carry out this crime that don't make any sense for us when we're just looking at it as a black and white murder. So I wonder if it has much more to do with the projection this person is going through.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And I say that because maybe that's where the police need to look in terms of who may have interacted with this couple who may be a troubled youth, be a troubled teen, young adult, something like that. May have glommed onto the Dermons because they felt akin to them. Maybe because they knew that this sweet couple... had a child who had fallen to addiction and been murdered.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And so what that tells me is the hammer was brought back. in order to inflict this blunt force trauma on someone, whether it was for Russell or Shirley. And that's really disturbing again, because we've talked about who the Dermons are. They are not people who you would expect to be targeted because they have people who hate them.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
So maybe this son, who maybe this person never even knew, felt closer to where they were in life, that they felt close enough to the Dermans that the Dermans were like family to them, even if the Dermans themselves never felt close to this person.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And so to come with a device specifically to do this horrific thing meant to kill, you don't hit someone over the head once or twice with a hammer to incapacitate them. You do it to kill them and to make sure that they are dead, because that is an incredibly large object that is meant to crush the skull.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
What a strange case, and I really do hope with this recent kind of push, at least by law enforcement, it seems, and the increase in reward money, that this case will be solved. Because what a tragic end to a beautiful life, you know, married for 68 years, four children had to endure the devastation of one of their children being murdered.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
seemingly just a wonderful couple who didn't really have an enemy in the world. To be ended like this has got to be so devastating for their family. So I hope for justice for them and also to take this person off the streets because I don't think they are well. I don't necessarily think this person is a serial killer or necessarily is even out there looking for their next hunt.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
I don't think that's the case. I think this is a very disturbed person who needs help. And they have done something incredibly, incredibly horrendous and they need to be brought to justice for it and also probably get some help.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And that just the personal, the closeness of it, and also the intentionality is what jumps out at me as to her manner of death.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
It's such a mystery, we don't even know it.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
He needed to dry his tears before we could go live. Look. You need a sweatshirt. This is one of my favorites. Yeah. For those of you who can't see, it's a prosecutor's. I think I have food stuck on it. Might be night cheese.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
I literally have no idea. I thought about that. I was like, did he forget to call me something?
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
I told you I'd forget everything within the hour. I've made good on my promise.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
I had to threaten taking that away so many times tonight with my squanto because he would not get in bed.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
Yeah, absolutely. And if if this happened somewhere other than the home, again, what we talked about with an 80 something year old woman, There are fortunately many ways to kill her that are much less gruesome. If you have already incapacitated her, you probably have her bound already to some degree. She can't get away. Suffocation is pretty quiet and not gruesome.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
This involves really taking the active action of being the one to end her life. And I say that obviously strangulation or suffocating someone is also that, but it's a kind of a one step removed in terms of what the perpetrator may be thinking. There's no question that your hand coming down is the one that ends her life.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And so that intentionality goes to who we think the profile of the person is who committed this crime.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And you've just said something, Brett, that I know a lot of people probably have been thinking about ever since the first episode when we mentioned that Russell was decapitated. The cartel, right? This seems like a targeted professional hit and the cartel typically, it's not overkill, but it's like gruesome kills in order to send a message to those who are living, right?
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
You leave with a head or you put a head on a stake. as if to say to everyone else, don't you mess with us. The problem with that is not only are there absolutely no indications that the cartel would have any reason to have any beef with the Dermons, but when you send a message, people need to know what the message is. And it's not clear what the message would be here in the Dermons' case.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And so while at first glance, you may think, wow, this seems like a professional hit. These people knew what they were doing. This is incredibly gruesome. It's so vicious. It sounds like the cartel. I agree. That was my first initial gut reaction. But the more I look at this, the less this looks like a cartel hit because of all the reasons we've talked about.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And trust me, when they want to send a message, they will. And they don't want someone else taking credit for what they're doing. And so it absolutely would make sense if this were a message. But no one knows what the message is. And there is absolutely, again, no indication that they would come after these like 80 something year old people who spend their time golfing and doing crossword puzzles.
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
And you'd have to have someone who wants you to be a target. Again, they are beloved. They're so beloved, in fact, that their neighbors are the ones who found them. These are not people who are loners. They're very enmeshed in their community. And when you're enmeshed in your community, people do pick up on things, especially when they're looking at Backwards, right?
The Prosecutors
288. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 2 of 2
They always say hindsight is 20-20. They'll be like, well, Susie really did hate, you know, the way the Dermons treated her at the grocery store every week. Nothing like that has surfaced even after the fact.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Rather, this was fertile ground for essentially this theory to take root again. and have legs to run. So Jerry Driver in 1992 called in Steve Nowizik. He was the Little Rock coroner and self-proclaimed satanic cult expert.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Note, self-proclaimed, because I'm not exactly sure how you would get a degree in this other than as we saw with the psychiatrist who helped Michelle remember, he became the expert. But how do these people become experts? Essentially, you have to become self-proclaimed. So he was called in to essentially investigate the satanic scene in West Memphis.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And based on the bonfires, the graffiti, and the animal carcasses found around town, just by the way in Texas, we call those roadkill. But he was looking at all of these things. And in total, Steve determined that a group of self-styled Satanists were running around West Memphis. So this is his expert opinion to Jerry Driver, who was already going around looking for these satanic cult killers.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Now, Steve said that this group of Satanists in West Memphis would be made up of a certain profile. And the profile he developed for these Satanists were troubled youths who used Satanism as an excuse to do drugs, have sex, and generally like a middle finger to society. And he said that there would generally be a charismatic leader, which Driver believed to be Damien Eccles.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Now, Driver was suspicious of Damien because of Damien's statements to him after his arrest with Deanna Holcomb. And here's how Driver described it. We've read this to you before, but we think it's worth listening to.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Hi, Brett. Way to go. Way to go. Damnish. As a precursor for talking a lot about Satanism today. Is it Satan? Satan. You know, it's really funny. I just noticed you say Satanism. It's kind of a soft. I say Satanism. I don't know what I'm saying anymore. I don't know. It's lost all meaning. It's lost all meaning because I've read it so many times now. Satan. Be gone, Satan. Satan.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
That's a lot, right? This is a lot in the sense that you're beginning to see where it's coming from because I do think there has been a light cast on this that it was dreamed up of out of nowhere.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And whether Damien was pulling their legs, it certainly sounds like that he was, whether they're watching these national reports, this national frenzy about it, it certainly was not something that was made up whole cloth in the middle of West Memphis. Now, whether there was any teeth to actual Satanism in West Memphis, a whole nother story.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But this was prime, by the way, whenever you find anyone during any sort of a craze who claims to be an expert on something that you think, hmm, how can you possibly be an expert on that? Follow your gut feeling, right? The fact that all these people can claim to be self-proclaimed experts says something.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
People were looking for answers because they truly believed or at least were too scared not to believe the possibility. Because what if just a 0.1% this was true? That's terrifying. We should probably take it seriously, right? These are some very serious allegations. So of course, although the idea of satanic cults around the country sacrificing thousands of people a year has now been debunked,
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But of course, it's been replaced by a different kind of cult. Some maybe say the Odinists, it seems, which is very true and will not be debunked. And there are very many experts on it now. That was in jest for those of you who follow the Delphi case. Odinism is not the cult to replace it by.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But by the way, going back to this, we are always drawn to kind of the unknown cultish behaviors that probably have some sort of underlining truth to them. that don't quite rise to the level of what ultimately became the Satanic panic, what became the Odinism cult travesty that was the Delphi case.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
We want to believe these things because we know that these terrible things, when humans follow their worst tendencies, have existed in history. But that doesn't mean they exist at every turn. So let's say that even though we now know the Satanic panic has been debunked, that doesn't mean...
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
That there aren't people, and this is probably what fueled the original panic or the original stories of why these cults may have existed, doesn't mean that there aren't people who have murdered others and described themselves as Satanists. To fuel it, to make it something bigger, cooler than what they are, because if you're just a murderer, you're just a murderer.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But if you're a satanic murderer, maybe something bigger than yourself.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
now we covered rod ferrell and his kentucky vampire cult and we've also covered the palo mayombe practice of drug trafficker adolfo constanzo and there are others that we haven't covered such as the murder of gisele cote by scott waterhouse a self-professed satanist and the murders by the night stalker richard ramirez there are many more
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
So you can see how whether it was a flashpoint in time or not, it certainly was fed by these real murders done by people who claim to have been part of the satanic cults. Now, given this history, perhaps it's not surprising that the police thought of Satanism when they found three young boys brutally murdered in West Memphis.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And although the grip of the satanic panic was breaking by 1993, it really didn't end until a few years later. And, you know, we've talked about our experience in Alabama or the South, but it wasn't limited to the South. Some of the most prominent cult cops were actually in the big cities on the coast, San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
I think this is going to be really, truly, I think this is going to be very interesting because obviously we know that the satanic panic was kind of swirling around. At least it's been cast that way when we look back on this case.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And with that background, the things going on in West Memphis primed the police to believe that satanism was involved.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
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The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
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The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
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The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But to understand kind of where this case sat in history, if it was a satanic panic or if it was just an interest in certain things, I think is very informative when we're looking back on this case decades later. And I learned a lot about satanism. I'm not going to lie when we research this.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
I mean, not the same thing at all. Cause it wasn't a forest, but I remember last year I walked out to take the garbage out and it was dark out and I live by some like lakes and I felt something squished beneath my foot as I rolled the garbage can out. And I was like, Oh. Oh my, that felt like it once used to be alive.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And so I quickly ran back, was too scared to look because I didn't want to know what I had stepped in and turned on the lights and looked out. And very strangely, I live on land. You know, my house is on land and there was this massive, massive, I don't know what kind, cause I want to get close enough. fish, like larger than half my wingspan, right? So what?
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
About three foot long fish in the middle of my driveway. And it had its head cut off and it had the little spine poking out of it. And it looked terrified. It smelled terrible because fish doesn't smell great when it's not in the water anymore. And my very first thought was, who put it there to intimidate me?
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Exactly. I was like, someone put it there. Someone put it there with its decapitated head. The head is nowhere to be found in the middle of my driveway to scare me. That was my very first thought. I mean, this is also at a time when we're prosecuting some kind of scary people who moved a lot of drugs and so on. My first thought was this is intimidation factor.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And then I like came down off my fear factor horse and I was like, OK, realistically, I live a little bit far from this lake, but it's walking distance. And really likely what happened is one of the blue heron who live in my neighborhood probably was trying to wrestle this massive three foot long fish, which was about as. large as the heron and probably was able to like capture its head alone.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And the fish was probably swaying back and forth, decapitated itself and fell on my driving. That's most likely what happened. But if you had talked to me within the first five minutes of me finding it, I was like, someone is here to intimidate me. And there's no way this naturally could have appeared here. That's just one small way of showing.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And I was primed at the time to think someone wanted to intimidate me as well, because we had gotten threatening messages. And people were supposedly stalking and watching our office as we were prosecuting this case. So all to say is the mind is going to filter whatever it sees. And you can easily see how something that could just be roadkill, dead animals.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
can suddenly look like animal sacrifice, or it could really be animal sacrifice. But keep that in mind. It's all being filtered through this lens that we've just talked about. 2020 reports, national reporting of these underpinnings of our society that are threatening the very core of what is good and evil.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Nothing, nothing at all. Buckle up, y'all, because on June 29th, 1993, the police talked to Alvis Clem Bly. He's a 36-year-old man who at the time had been in the county jail for four months for one of the most horrendous crimes, and that's of raping his stepdaughter.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
so bligh claimed that he had lived in lakeshore and during that time he became a part of a local cult he reported that the cult would kill dogs and chickens they would drain their blood burn their hearts in the center of a pentagram that was drawn with white and blue carpenter's chalk He said that both Jason Baldwin and Jessie Miss Kelly were part of this cult.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Can you imagine the police hearing this as they are deep in their investigation and here comes Bly telling them everything of their very worst fears that seems to coincide with what they've already been hearing as rumor and innuendo from others, but no one's been able to point specifically at what it is until Bly comes along. And even better, he points fingers at Jason...
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
and jesse so he's shown a picture of jason baldwin and he says that's not who i'm thinking about instead even though he says the name jason baldwin when shown a picture of damien he says that's who i'm talking about that's jason So in other words, the people he's thinking about are actually Damien and Jesse, though he calls them Jesse and Jason.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And by the way, he gets that wrong a little bit too. Instead of Damien, he calls him Davian. Now, Bly also claimed that Jesse Miss Kelly was the head of this cult.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
I was going to say, we've heard from Jesse, Miss Kelly, and he very well may be a follower, but I don't know that he's the head of a cult. And so Bly claimed that he knew Jesse very well and that he'd gone water skiing with Jesse. He said that Miss Kelly told him that the devil would give him more than God ever would.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
In addition to killing the dogs, Bly claimed that the cult had raped a girl at a place the locals called Stone Hinge. Bly doesn't stop there. He said that Miss Kelly came up with the idea of murdering the three boys, but Baldwin, and again, he says Jason Baldwin, but after looking at the pictures, we think he actually means Damien or Davian, went along with it.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
So all up until now, we've heard that it's Damien who's kind of the brains. And if anyone was following, it was Jessie Miss Kelly. But here we have, of course, the flip of the story. And it may just be he heard something and flipped it around because it doesn't actually seem like he knows Jessie Miss Kelly that well. I don't know that Jessie Miss Kelly has water skied. Maybe they do all the time.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Maybe it would have been better had he said, I wrestled with him if he did his research on who Jessie Miss Kelly was. And by the way, this is how we assess jailhouse informants, things like this, because people are talking all the time.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But the fact that, for example, he calls Jason, Damien Jason, and then he even says Damien is Davian, all these things are kind of triggers to think, okay, do you really know what you're talking about?
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
What are they supposed to do with this? My goodness.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Do we look for receipts for baby oil?
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
I don't think so. I guess that's what he's thinking, right?
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Because it coats it so that you burn that up, but alcohol doesn't burn very long. I mean, this is a high level of detail. This is not like the other witnesses who say, oh, everyone knows that Robin Hood Hills is the place of animal sacrifices. He's actually talking about very gruesome details, whether he's completely making them up or not. They are details.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And like, you can't you can't write a movie, you know, more salacious than what he's telling them. And he goes on. Bly claimed that there were at least 20 people in the cult, but very specific, never fewer than eight. So the meetings were always on Sunday at 6 p.m., and they used a black book with a dragon with a goat's body on the cover.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
By the way, maybe your mom was right about dragons, you know? There you go. Look what's happening over here. This is why I couldn't play Dungeons & Dragons. This is where dragons got their bad rap. I mean, talk about details here, right? So... On this black book, and there was this, you know, dragon with a goat's body who he referred to as Saint Lucifer's second son, not first son, second son.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Bly said that if the cult killed the boys, they would have beaten them to death. Now, Bly was surprised that they hadn't had their heads cut off because that's what you're supposed to do, he said. And in fact, what they've done to the dogs. So he noted that the book told them to bite the penis off of the dogs, what he called the devil's circumcision.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
It's not just like describing horrific things, even if it's just his imagination. He's naming them as well, right? It's not just... oh, we do this horrific thing where we bite off, you know, the sex organs. He says, oh, of course, that's called the devil's circumcision. You haven't heard of it?
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
I mean, he absolutely is pulling in all the elements to, if I am the interviewer, my head's exploding at this point because I don't believe him, but also I can't not follow up. And then also I have to believe him in some senses because he is being so detailed and so specific about the things that are happening. So back to him talking about the devil's circumcision.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
He claims that no one was brave enough to do that, which is to bite off the sex organ. And so what they did was they cut the penis off instead. Now, Bly said that Jesse Miss Kelly carried a knife with him at all times and that he called it a gut knife. The cult wanted to sacrifice a child, and Bly said that the book told them it had to be a child who was eight years old or younger.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Now, very interesting, because we've been hearing about all these things that the book tells them they have to do. Bly doesn't even own this book. Bly says that he got this book from the library. He checked it out. It's due in two weeks, or he gets charged a fine. I mean, can you imagine if this is the book? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
If this is like the book of life, death, whatever you want to call it, the book that tells you basically how to live your life as a cult leader, you don't even own it. You know, like I just check out my Bible and read it in two weeks spurts.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Maybe they checked it out from Yale.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
So Bly said that he left the cult about a month before the murders. Of course, he had nothing to do with the murders. He just knows everything about it. And that he was in jail at the time of the crimes. Now, he said that they had to sacrifice every full moon. For what it's worth, the moon waxed full the night of May 5th and into the morning of May 6th, 1993.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
So you can, you know, a broken clock is still right twice a day. But he does mention the full moon and specifically that a full moon is the night of sacrifices, which remember Driver was driving around on full moon nights looking for just this sort of thing. Again, Driver wasn't making this up in his mind.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
You have someone like Bly telling you specifically how they hang up a dog, slit its throat, drink its blood, pour baby oil on it, light it up like a candle and doing sacrifices on full moon nights. This is absolutely being fed by multiple witnesses and not in small part by Bly as well. Now, like all the other witnesses, police wanted to polygraph Bly, but it appears that he never was.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
I mean, I don't really trust and really depend on polygraphs, but it would have been fun to see it light up like a Christmas tree.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
By the way, when I said it was one of the worst crimes, I didn't mean like worst in terms of obviously we were talking about a triple horrific homicide. Worst to be in jail for. You know who does not get it well by other criminals in jail?
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Someone who has violated their own, you know, a child within their care is one of kind of the lowest crimes in terms of the totem pole of security, shall we call it, in prison. So that's what I meant by one of the worst. He has a lot to lose if he stays in prison. He may not make it out alive.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
He has every interest to try and get out because he's facing a very long sentence among other inmates who hate his guts.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
It's like the app where you find stones.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
By the way, just really quick. I'm not a expert in animal sacrifices at all, but isn't like at least historically the purpose of a sacrifice is that you give it up. And so like you do not take it back for meat. I mean, like in the biblical times in like civilizations that are now gone, when you do sacrifice, the whole point is you sacrifice and you give in place of something else like
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
a child and you leave it at the altar for the gods or the satans that you are worshiping and you don't then get to like barbecue with it so i'm just having a little issue with their with their animal sacrifice because that just sounds like a barbecue it doesn't sound like animal sacrifice i'm gonna live and say torture at that if this cult existed they weren't the most sophisticated cultists so but you're right that is a criticism shouldn't be eating the meat one of many
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
As a 10-year-old? I'm sorry. I just, again, horrific. We should look into this because this is horrific.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
They always go for the jugular, right? They're so important. You go straight to the top.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Not the other, you know, lesser demons.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or condo. It's about the home. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location and neighborhood. If you have kids, it's also schools, nearby parks, and transportation options.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
That's why Homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in-depth information they need to find the right home.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
I mean, even God sends like his, you know, angels ahead to like the angel Gabriel to like announce. Yeah. It's usually not God coming down to say things, but Satan. Apparently they go straight there.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
so as you can probably tell climber had some problems he's been in and out of mental hospitals for years and the story that you just heard he told it smacks of fantasy right it doesn't really seem rooted in reality well at one point he tells police that damien and the group attacked and killed a blood because of gang fang
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
because they were affiliated with the Crips, who were apparently in climbers telling a satanic group. So all of a sudden, the Bloods and the Crips are part of this as well. I mean, this kid watches TV is all I know. I don't know that he's reading books, but if he does, it's definitely at the West Memphis Public Library.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And not to make fun of him, because it smells like, and we know of his mental history, that it is fantasy, except there's probably a lot of underlying mental illness that's causing him to say a lot of these things as well. But he's not the only one.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
It would be one thing if we just had a couple people who were in and out of mental institutions saying these sorts of crazy things and just a couple inmates who were trying to get off of their sentences saying these things. We are just rife with people who are feeding into this theory here. So. Then there's Jason Crosby.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Crosby also called Damian Michael, his given name, and he had known him for over a year. Now, Jason Crosby also said he knew Jesse Miss Kelly and Jason Baldwin. John Heath, who was the principal at Marion Junior High, took a statement from Jason in which Jason told him that he knew... Damien was in a satanic cult and he would kill animals and eat the meat.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Again, this is coming back with the eating the meat. He claimed that he'd overheard Jesse and Damien in the weeks before the murders talking about catching a bum and setting him on fire. He claimed that he was afraid to tell anyone because Jesse would kill him.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
and jason would later deny all of this when questioned by the police he said that damien had told him about wicca but never about black magic or satanic groups and jason would later disclaim these statements as well again when you hear about all these things that he's saying very well they may have talked about finding a bum and burning him was it
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
That's a little bit different than ultimately, of course, what happened. That's horrible to say. They may have said it because, as we know, Damien really likes to say things that get rises out of people. But hearing him say something that wasn't ultimately what happened, right? Is it a weird thing to say? Should you not say those things? Yes, that's all true.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But did we find anything of real value in his testimony? I don't think so. Not really.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
which is again why when Bly said that it was Damien who went along with Jesse Miskellia's leader, seemed unlikely in terms of what we know about Damien. Now, Shane said that when Damien and Deanne broke up, he gave her two things, a crow's foot and a gold coin. Shane said that the crow's foot was used in black magic to represent pain, while the gold coin represented pleasure.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Remember, this is coming from the new boyfriend about an ex-boyfriend. Take it through that lens as well. Now, Shane explained that he'd studied white and black magic and that a downward pointing pentagram is used to ward off spirits while an invoking pentagram is right side up. But based on Shane's study, he's now the self-proclaimed expert.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
He did not believe the murders were satanic as they didn't match any kind of ritual that he knew of personally.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
take there you go so he is the it didn't fit in one of the books that he checked out from the library so he doesn't think it was satanic Now, they also spoke to Garrett Schwarting. Garrett, you may recall, gave an alibi for Jason only to recant it later. So Garrett described himself as a white witch practitioner.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
He told police that he was sure Jason Baldwin was not involved in the murders, but that Jesse and Damien had committed the crime. Garrett said that Damien was possessed by a demon put there by a man named, you guessed it, Lucifer. And Damien was supposed to kill nine people before he could become a god. And the first person he was supposed to kill was actually his best friend, Jason Baldwin.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But Garrett said that Damien couldn't kill Jason. And why not? Because he said that Damien was bisexual. And he implies that essentially Damien maybe had a love interest for Jason. And that's why he couldn't kill the first of the nine people he needed to kill to become a god. And Lucifer could be identified by a purple streak in his blonde hair.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Gareth said that another person, Jerry Niernes, was part of the cult with Jesse, Jason, and Damien, and that they would nail cats to trees in sacrifices. These poor cats, man. Really going after the cats. They eat the dogs, but they nail the cats.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
So we said that Deanne had a lot to say about Damien and so she goes on because she says that Damien was going to sacrifice their first daughter were they to have one. Remember this comes back later when we hear about Domini and they do in fact have a child together.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But Deanne also said that he would get people involved in magic and tell them what he was doing was white magic while in fact it was actually black magic so tricking them. And Damien had told her that he'd never killed anyone, but he really wanted to because he wanted to know what it felt like.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Now, she said that new members of Damien's cult would have been made to strip naked and possibly drink blood. It's like they all watch the same movie about what a satanic cult should be, like nail cats to trees, drink blood.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Absolutely. Because they all have similar strains, but it doesn't sound like from personal experience. It sounds like they all read the same comic book or something to that effect. Now, she said Damien would often go into the woods to do drugs with others. I honestly can believe that. Yeah, it's believable. Yeah. Deanne said May was a big month for cults.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Mark your calendars, not just for Cinco de Mayo, particularly around the full moon. And Deanne said that Damien would hide in the sewer manholes, and he had suggested that they go to the sewer when they ran away. You know what was popular around this time? Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
I don't say that in jest, right? Like thinking of places, this goes along with the preschool, the tunnels under the ground, things that are kind of unseen, but right at the surface of the rest of life. This really strikes a chord of fear within anyone listening.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Right. So after this interview, Deanne, like so many of the other witnesses in this case, was polygraphed. Now she indicated deception on only one question, whether she knew for sure who killed the boys. So in the post polygraph interview, she said she was sure it was Damien, though she also said she didn't think he would have done the killing. He would have had someone else do it.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And Deanne said that if Damien ordered Jason to kill the boys, that Jason would have done it. So for what it's worth, I mean, she, on the polygraph, seemed to be telling the truth.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Maybe it was like, they couldn't see it because they had to carve it in. They're not really good at carving. So the six looks like an eight.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
It would have been six. Yeah. That's right. So Dennis Engle was a preacher at the Lakeshore Baptist Church. Remember, we've heard of him before. Now, he said that Damien Echols was known to be involved in cults and wore boots with not 888, but 666 on the side of them.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Now, the First Baptist Church also had a connection to this case because Murray Ferris and his buddy Chris Luttrell attended a revival at the church the night of the murders. And remember, that was their alibi that cleared them, even though they were people of interest at first.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Now, this was a little unusual as both Ferris and Luttrell were self-described white witches, though they assured police they believed in harming no one. Luttrell would tell police that Damien had attended a few of their Coven meetings and but the white witch deal wasn't for him.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Ferris would tell police that he suspected a leader of an evil cult was involved, a 37-year-old man who drove an off-white or cream van.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And also like the stuff of all kidnapping slash horror movies, right? They're never driving like a hot pink Sprinter van.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
There you have it. That was a rollercoaster of emotions.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But at the same time, kind of what we're talking about here, it doesn't mean that the police shouldn't have looked into it. I think they had to look into it to some degree. I think it is a smoke that doesn't actually get us to the truth of what happened here. Right. Like it is it can even be a part of this case and not have been wrongful convictions or wrongful arrest, if that makes sense.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Yeah, I know. I think that's absolutely right. I think it helps explain why certain measures were taken, why certain interviews were requested, why they took certain people's polygraphs. But at the end of the day, I don't think that this is a satanic killing. I think this is a horrific killing.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
innocent children and to weave this into some movie as opposed to what it is which is just devastation and tragedy and seeing all this it's helpful to know where it sits in time but i think focusing on the satanic panic and ties of the convicted to the satanist cults maybe not white witch, black witch, whatever, is missing the real thrust of the evidence in the case.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And I don't think we need to spend more time focusing on it because if we wanted to write a movie, if we wanted to make something that was very, you know, exciting, of course you would focus on the satanic aspect of the case. But for...
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
evidentiary purposes other than to understand why they interviewed certain people, what people were saying and kind of what was everyone's filter in which they were seeing many things is helpful to know. But I don't think this is going to be the key for understanding what happened that night to the boys.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
No, I mean, I think it was important to really talk about the satanic panic, both in terms of what was happening, you know, in the background, as well as specifically with respect to the testimonies in the interviews with witnesses. I wouldn't even call many of them witnesses, people who they talk to.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But I do think that there's been too much focus on satanism, and it doesn't help us understand this case for purposes of then drilling down for the truth. But I understand the appeal. I absolutely understand the appeal. You heard the stories that were told. They are quite, they are as salacious as they get.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
So I know that there will be people who want to push back and say, no, it is because of the salaciousness that the wrong people were focused upon. But I think going back to our outline, and digging deeper into the case, we can hopefully leave this part behind because you can see this on every documentary, every TV show ever done about this case.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But now that we've dealt with this, I hope we can move forward and look at the case as if we were investigating it, which is going to be very interesting because still a lot of question marks, a lot of question marks that I think will be continued to be unsolved.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
That's it, Brett. That's it. Except that we have many more things to say because this is episode eight.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
You want to know something funny? Sure. Oh, wait, hold on. Last time, I hope my audio wasn't weird because it switched like when I opened it up again. I hope it wasn't originally switched.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
We'll find out. We'll find out. Okay. Before we get started. So can you hear me? Yeah. Okay. I know I'm testing my sound too. So I was like, man, I was like massive bruise on my arm. Like, how did I, like, did I hit it when I was asleep or like, what is this? And I could not figure it out. Sorry, I'm still breaking the sound. I was like, man, what is this? Did I run into the wall?
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
I could not figure it out. And then tonight, while I was holding Alice's son, I always hold him on my left arm because I'm doing things with my right arm. And he was like pounding it like this with his hand. It was like right in the spot. And I was like, you gave me a bruise. There you go.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And I mean, this isn't just sensationalism in the book. This is now in real people's lives. I mean, 360 interviews, these horrible allegations. You can't even write fiction like this, nor do the kids realize that they're part of the ultimately, I think, what was shown to be fiction.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
But you can see how this catches fire because as many people were saying at the time, okay, maybe be one child can fib or say something that isn't real, but could 360 possibly do that? And so this is very, very attractive in the sense of we have to stop this. This can't possibly be 300 plus people making up lies. We are under spiritual warfare here. One of the darkest of evils coming after us.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And in addition to these types of cases, which ultimately didn't go anywhere, how do we learn about things today? Well, we have lots of streaming services and lots of shows. And you betcha, especially this case, we saw it with HBO's Paradise Lost. When you can catch fire with your media, you're able to all of a sudden capture eyes around the nation, around the world.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And that's what happened in 1985. ABC's 2020 aired a report called The Devil Worshippers. And in this 2020 episode, it reported that 15,000 animal mutilations, satanic rituals across the country were happening. And this was the spread of Satanism. It wasn't just your weird kid in the backyard. This was something that was an undercurrent of our entire society.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And it was taking over in waves by the thousands. I mean, can you imagine the horror that you don't even know what's happening in your own community? So Dale Griffiths, who would later testify in the West Memphis three case, makes an appearance on this 2020 episode.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
To hell, right? I mean, literally my, so I did not grow up in Alabama as a child, but my husband did. And he like recounted stories of he'd be driving home with like, you know, other youth group members. And this was like many years later. So this is past the satanic panic. Harry Potter was coming out.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
And their youth pastor like threw the copies of Harry Potter out the window because he was like, you're opening up the doors to hell because this is magic. I mean, this had lasting impressions, even outside of kind of the core time period that we're talking about here.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Yes, especially. And this is so, so important that you're saying this, because I think when we look back on this case, West Memphis three, as we are decades removed, it's easy to just say this little small town West Memphis was just captured by something that was clearly false or fake.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
It didn't touch anyone else except for West Memphis because they were, I don't know, rural, not a big town, not sophisticated, whatever you want to say. But here we have 2020 report, Barbara Walters, basically warning the nation, the world of this Satanism that was sweeping every corner of our society, reaching our most vulnerable, our children, our preschoolers, our small children, our animals.
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Really, no one was safe from this. And so it was no surprise that that the police in west memphis were conditioned to believe that there was at least a possibility that satanism was rife in their community not just because this was something that was being reported on national media but as we saw from the timeline in their communications and interviews with people in west memphis
The Prosecutors
307. The West Memphis 3 Part 8 -- Satanic Panic
Damien Echols wasn't the only person to bring up Satanism. He was one of many to bring up Satanism. And people who had nothing to do with it talked of these meetings and rituals in the forest in Robin Hood Hills. And so this wasn't something dreamed up at the police department in West Memphis because they didn't have any more leads to go down.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
It's not going to be pitch black, but you're approaching on dusk and darkness. It's a little bit after dinnertime. So anyone going into Edmonton, especially on a weekend, you're not going in for work, right? Like this is not rush hour going into Edmonton. you are probably going to catch just a few cars going into Edmonton, meaning you're just going to get into whatever car comes forward to you.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Again, unfortunately, this is sounding a lot like other First Nation missing women stories that we've talked about in the past. She's... described, she would be categorized as a transient person because she doesn't have a permanent home or address. She does things like hitchhike because in this area, I mean, Canada is vast. It is a lot of wilderness. It's a lot of forests.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
All right, Brett. You know what? I don't know what that means, but it was amazing because you attempted it after, that was like a quincellabic word, and you have been driving all day with your kids. So I can't believe you did that. You win an award. Go home, everybody. Go to sleep.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
You're not going to be able to walk places. Certainly not if you stay outside of a city. Hitchhiking is the way a lot of people travel, not just Amber. We've already heard this happen so many times before. And whatever she wanted to go back for, I don't know. I mean, it doesn't seem like she was meeting anyone. Otherwise, she wouldn't be hitchhiking.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
I would think that if she was meeting with someone, there'd be a certain time maybe that person could have picked her up. And what we know is she's a devoted mother. She loves Jacob, right? I know some of this may jive a little weird if you're like, well, but she is leaving Jacob with Evangeline. But you probably have met a friend before where you really hit it off. They clearly really hit it off.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
That's why they're sharing a motel room and going on a girl's trip together. So she trusts Evangeline enough to leave Jacob with her. But who knows? Maybe she just wanted to go back into town and get a gift for her mother. Maybe something for Jacob. And 7.30 is pretty late for a 14-month-old. My kids are usually in bed by 7.30. So I can imagine, like, Jacob's tired all day.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Brett's been at Disney World all day with his kids. He knows, like, it's kind of hard getting things done when you have a 14-month-old. Certainly, if it's been a long day in a new place, probably better to leave him at home, let him get to sleep. She can get back into town, come back by, like, 9.30, 10. Not that late. But he's well on his way to dreamland.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Like, just loved it. Or my mom would have loved that purse. Like, I saw it in that store. You know, especially, by the way, like... If you're shopping and you don't have like a ton of money, I think about what I want to buy for a long time. Like when I was in college, law school, I didn't have a lot of disposable income.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
I would walk in and out of a store of something I wanted to buy 10 times before I bought it because I was like, do I really want it? And then if you get all the way home, you're like, I really wanted that. I really, really wanted that. And that may be as simple as what it is. Now, you guys are making me thinking you're just speculating. Well, there's more.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
So August 19th, 2010, and we are speculating, but there's a point to the speculating. Evangeline starts getting really concerned because Amber has not returned and it's the next morning. So she calls Amber's mom, Tootsie, and Tootsie hadn't heard from Amber either. Remember, Amber is very close to her mother, Tootsie, so much so that Evangeline knows how to contact her mother, right?
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And Tootsie said, you know, I haven't heard from her since yesterday, which is unusual because we talk all the time. So immediately Tootsie calls the RCMP, but the officer told her that Amber's probably just off partying and she'd be back soon. Again, the police are thinking 20-year-old leaves baby at home in a, you know, fun city. She's just out partying. She's bar hopping. Don't worry.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And that Tootsie had to wait 24 hours to file a missing persons report. 24 hours is everything. Every minute, every hour matters. And obviously we have two people who know her pretty well at this point, right? Evangeline, who is in that hotel with her, motel with her, has her son, who is described as like Amber's everything. She wouldn't just leave him.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And Tootsie, who hears from her every day, doesn't hear from her. There is enough cause to be worried 12 hours later, but yet they can't file a missing persons report yet.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Can I just say real quick, Ojibwe is like one of the most beautiful languages I've ever seen. Maybe I'm only hearing Brett's pronunciation of it, but all the words you've used have been like absolutely stunning.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Well, for those who actually speak it, I'm sorry, but it's a beautiful language.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
I don't know how you can do that when you literally don't have anything that she's there. Like, can you imagine if that's all it took to close? Just think about how, what a terrible policy this would be.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
If I were gonna be a serial killer or a kidnapper, I would just call in as soon as there was a missing persons report and be like, as an anonymous tip and be like, I think I saw this woman that meets this exact description at a bar. Case closed. No one will ever be looking for all of my victims. I mean, this is just like outrageous.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
We've always talked about how faulty these firsthand direct evidence sightings are, especially by strangers.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And when a parent says they go to Disney World, they go for their kids. So congratulations on being like parent of the year.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
So sadly and unfortunately, based on what you've heard so far, the case is completely cold. There's nothing that really happens for about two years. And two years later, August 28th, 2012, the RCMP released an audio recording of a phone call between Amber and her brother. Let that sink in for a second. They didn't discover this call two years later.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
They likely had this call basically as soon as Amber disappeared. We don't know why it took two years to release it, but I guess this is an attempt to revive a cold case. Now, you may be wondering, how do they have this recording? This is amazing. What's on it? What does this tell us? Because we've been telling you we hear the potential killer's voice, right? Well, here it is.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
So this audio is just a conversation between Amber and an unknown male who she appears to be in a car with. It's not a conversation with her brother. You see, Amber's brother was incarcerated. And so all of his phone calls were recorded. Anytime you call the prison, also like in the United States, it automatically starts recording. And it's possible that. Amber knew this.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And so she knew she was on a recorded line, which is why she called her brother and wasn't having a conversation with her brother, but rather was using that recording device so that someone could capture what was happening without the person she was in the car with knowing what was happening. You could imagine like a pretend butt dial, for example, and then just letting it run.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
That's kind of exactly what happened. If that's what she was thinking, oh my goodness. I mean, Amber should be incredibly applauded for thinking about doing this. And this is why it's important. We all know that if you record something on your phone, first of all, someone finds it, it's obvious what you're doing. You're recording them, right?
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Like if they see the red button, they're like, you're recording me. They could fly into a rage. They could immediately get violent right then and there. If they are going to do the most terrible thing to you and kill you, You're not going to be able to do anything with your phone when you're dead. They'll probably find your phone, destroy it. Evidence is destroyed.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
But if she's able to get this call recorded somewhere else, like on a prison line, then that even if her phone is never recovered, it doesn't matter. That recording still exists. Can we just take a moment? And I don't know that that's why Amber called her brother, but there's a pretty good bet that's what she was thinking. This is incredible, cool-headed level thinking at a time of crisis for her.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Just like why we've been praising Libby German in the Delphi case for taking out her phone and also recording who we think to be the killer bridge guy. And we obviously know that at the end of the day, they did not make it. But they were able to think quickly at that time. That's what Amber has done here. I mean, I cannot emphasize enough.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
If this case is ever solved, it's because of Amber's quick thinking. Now, what we get on this recorded line is a conversation who law enforcement assumes is her murderer. This call was not a blip. It wasn't a butt dial because it lasted for 17 minutes total. But all the police released in 2012 were 61 seconds. So about a minute of it. That's all that's out there. And we do have a clip of it.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
I'm sorry. If I'm about to be murdered, I will also be very profane.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
You guys, there is no substitute for listening to that because listen to Amber's voice. This is why I think she did this on purpose. She is calm, cool, collected, and she's doing the things that you would want the person who was trying to preserve this to do. She repeats what he says. She's asking leading questions. She's being very forceful about saying, where are we going? Where are we going?
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Who are the favorite characters for each of the kids to meet? Was it Elsa?
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
You said 50th Street? Are you sure 50th Street? 50th Street? East? East? She's saying it over and over because recognizing that her voice is closer to the phone microphone than... than his voices. So just in case his voice isn't being picked up, she's doing all the things that you would want anyone who's trying to do rescue missions to do.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And I can't believe how calm she is sounding, but clearly something has gone wrong and she recognizes it immediately. That's the other thing. Her spidey senses go up. And the fact that she's recording for 17 minutes, this is going to come in very important in just a little bit. You'll see why. Shows you that she has good instincts and she immediately takes action.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And another thing to note, remember, Amber's not from here. I don't know how many times she's been to Edmonton, but if she's staying out in Nisku, my guess is she probably doesn't know enough about Beaumont, North, South, East 50th Street. That's why I think she's doing all of this on purpose because she's saying things confidently as if she knows where she is, which is good.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
By the way, you know, we give you guys tips on how to get away with crime all the time. Here's a tip on how to hopefully on the margins avoid being a victim is to do exactly what she's doing. Be difficult. obviously didn't work out for her. If you have someone who just is going to do you harm, no matter what, you know, it probably doesn't matter what you're going to do.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
But this is also what I think Libby and Abby did in Delphi is to be difficult, right? Be difficult, be assertive. Her voice isn't shaking. She's repeating things authoritatively, whether they're true or not, right? East, West, 50th Street. Hey, yo, where are we going? Pull over now. Pull over. She's being assertive. She's not being a shrinking violet.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
sometimes if you're on that margin, that's enough for the person to be like, forget it. I don't wanna deal with this. I'm just thinking about this because my kids were doing this tonight. They're a bunch of hamsters in like a hamster terranium. I'm not exactly sure what it was, but they really wanted to hold one. And I was like, this is not gonna go well for my kids or the hamster, right?
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And they kept trying to catch a hamster. Guess which one they picked up? The one that cowered in the corner that they could reach. Guess which ones they didn't? The one that scratched the bejesus out of their hands, right? Be the victim who scratches the bejesus out of the perpetrator. May not always work, but it could. It could on the margins.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And this is why this is so devastating because, man, I don't know Amber and I wish I knew her, but she's clearly smart. She is confident. She takes things into her own hands and she's not going down without a fight. And you can hear all of this in the 61 seconds.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
I don't know what's on the other 16 minutes, but it's probably a treasure trove of information, even if there are no words on it, because I think it tells us about what's going on. Now, according to Amber's brother, the RCMP had this audio for a year before they released it.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Again, I think because this is being recorded and the way, at least in the United States, prison phone calls are recorded over, unless like there's a reason to keep it. Recordings just take up space, right? Right. So the fact that it exists two years later or one year later, if they're saying the RCMP had it for a year, indicates they probably knew at the time that there was this call.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And so if you have a missing persons call come into the police and it's only been 12 hours, not 24 hours, but you know you have a recording, someone needs to go listen to it. And you could probably figure out within minutes that something really terrible has happened and you better file that missing persons report. This is why in this case, I'm like, uh-uh.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Do they question, like, do they think it's really them? Oh, absolutely. Okay, I didn't know, because when we see all the Santas, I say, well, Santa has lots of helpers so that they can be at all the malls. And so they are like, oh, he's a representative of Santa.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
There were a lot of missteps here because there were so many indications that a missing report should have been filed and should have never been removed from the missing persons as an active file anytime soon, especially with this call on record.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
and because of the time of the call matching basically how long they were driving i think it's probably fair to say that if there's additional conversation in that call it probably got escalated and it's probably emotionally distressing for some point and i understand maybe not wanting to release you know like really panicked conversation she's probably screaming crying at some point there might be more on the call but
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
When you can get someone's voice in different variations, in different states, it helps people identify them. His voice is actually pretty clear in that call. I don't know where she positioned the phone, but like I can hear him. It's, it's a pretty clear indication if, if I knew that voice. you could be like, wait a second, that's Gary. He lives down the street, right?
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
But if you hear different variations, maybe him yelling or him speaking in different ways, it just opens up the spectrum of people being able to identify him. And so I do think there's a really good chance that there is additional conversation because it hasn't really escalated yet in the part that we hear. It's relatively friendly in the sense that he's still part of the lie, right?
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
He's like, everything's fine, everything's fine. Pretty soon it's not going to be because she's telling him to pull over and he is now resisting her and things are going to get heated and there's probably more. So I do hope that if someone knows something, they can have access to what the other parts of his voice and his emotions sound like, maybe his mannerisms.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Some people act a certain way when they get agitated, right? When maybe they have sayings that they do or the way they react or tics or whatever that can really trigger someone who may know the person.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
I mean, again, I don't necessarily think it's calculated ill will, but this is why it's so important for people to remember that like victims and victims' families are at the... If you lose sight of that, you really lose sight of your job. I mean, little things like... You don't think her son and her mother would like her last belongings that she had in Edmonton? I mean, your mother's last shirt.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
If I had to grow up without knowledge of who my mother was, that would be incredibly precious to me. And to know that it was kind of tossed out like a piece of trash is just so emotionally damaging. And obviously that may or may not even have evidentiary value. Like from an investigative perspective, I want to keep everything from that moment because you know what?
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
That's awesome. That is awesome. Well, welcome back. Sounds magical.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
No one's cleared until they're cleared. Maybe there were fibers on her. Maybe she had met someone, maybe anything. When you have so little information, you want to keep everything. And the last things she touched, I would think at least you'd want to like document them at the
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
You know, just do everything you can to try and show you care, but also investigatively be smart about the evidence that you do have. So on August 27th, 2018, I mean, years are just hopping by with nothing happening at this point. The Civilian Review and Complaints Commission of the RCMP released a 120-page report regarding the investigation into Amber's disappearance. Thank goodness, by the way.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
The review characterized this investigation as, quote, deficient and inadequate and stated that, quote, the officers involved in the case either weren't trained properly or did not adhere to training policies and guidelines that should be followed in a missing persons case. That's from the CBC. And this could be twofold.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
They could have really done an internal investigation and they're trying to make sure this doesn't happen again. But yeah, of course, this didn't follow policy, because if it did, you're going to get a lot of lawsuits. So unfortunately, they have to say that, right? They have to say that it's not their policy or that these people weren't trained.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
I really hope that this report, which is a very long report, 120 pages, was a wake-up call that this is not the way you conduct investigations. This is not the way you run investigations. This is not the way you treat people. People will continue to disappear at alarming rates, especially vulnerable populations. if anyone views investigations in this light.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And this report goes on to issue several recommendations, including that the RCMP make a public apology to Amber's family, which is the least they should do. But again, I hope those recommendations don't fall on deaf ears because lives can be saved. And you know what? Deterrence is a real thing as well.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
If I know I can call in a fake sighting and get people off my back in cases closed and I know no one's going to look into a case for 14 years, I'm going to keep murdering like vulnerable women. Why not? But if you start knowing that the RCMP or law enforcement takes this seriously, the risk factor for your little game of serial killing starts to become a little too high.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Maybe you'll just take up fencing instead.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
So this brings us to January 2020. It seemed as if there might be a break in the case when a man called the RCMP to report that he believed his father was responsible for Amber's murder. He also posted this on Facebook and implicated his father in several other murders in the area.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
The RCMP did look into this lead, but unfortunately, this tipster's credibility was called into question when it was discovered that he called the Banff RCMP the month prior to implicate his father in several murders there, all of which had already been solved. Really quick here.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
that hopefully they did other investigation as to why there was credibility, but he may not have known those others murders were solved. And if he stumbled upon something, I don't know what that led him to believe that he clearly thinks his father is responsible for not just one, but multiple murders. So like a serial killer type.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And I don't know if that's enough to say you're wrong on these because obviously we have copycat killers. We have people who span lots of different places. The fact that he's calling multiple places, yes, he might be a hoaxster. That's definitely possible. Or it could be that serial killers sometimes go lots of different places to avoid detection as well.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
So I don't know, but I think it's really interesting, especially that he goes to Facebook, by the way. I think it kind of shows you the confidence that people have in law enforcement.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Confessions of a hitchhike serial killer right here.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
so a couple more things that we probably know about this person is i don't think amber knew who this person was that's why i don't think evangeline had anything to do with this i don't think this was some sort of setup because i don't think she knew who this person was if she did i think she would have said that person's name multiple times in this call because the call seemed to be a message from amber it wasn't a mistake that she had this call recorded
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And she's speaking to him as if he's a stranger as well. She doesn't know who he is. She doesn't use his name. He doesn't say her name. So I think this is a complete stranger whose voice is clearly heard here. Second, I think he knows this area, which is why he's driving here. He knows enough to say north of Beaumont. He knows enough to say Fifth Street, east. We're going into town. So...
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Edmonton is not that big Nisqy is not that big sure when you start going out to like the broader perimeters of the suburbs it gets a little bit larger but I think if you know anyone in like Edmonton and the greater areas there is a very very high likelihood that somebody knows this person I don't.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
think this person is just like a lone trucker driving through because of the way he's talking about the streets. He at least knows the streets enough or he studied the streets enough that he can spit out words that make it seem like he knows where he's going or let the person he's driving feel like he knows what he's doing because this is what Amber's doing.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
She's not letting on she doesn't know where she is. She's not letting on that she doesn't really know this area. She's throwing out specifics and making him confirm or deny them and
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And so if you're going to go through the effort of like looking at a map, even if you're not from there and you want to do harm to a young woman, you'll have studied the map and then probably this is your hunting ground. You'll probably come back, right? Or you live in the area enough that you didn't have to study it.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
So I say this because if we're trying to think about who this could be, I think it's someone who is living and might still be living in this general area. So talking about kind of who this may be,
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
There is a name that has come up because after the audio footage was released, at least two different women came forward on separate occasions saying that the voice sounded like that of a person named Pat Carlson. Now, Carlson was well known in the Alberta area and he had served time for sexual offenses.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Basically, he would lure women, young women to his ranch by placing ads, offering them free room and board in exchange for work on his ranch. And once there, he would sexually assault them. And he was such a threat to women in the community that the RCMP issued a warning about him when he was released from prison. The same RCMP who didn't take this seriously.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
So I think that says something about how dangerous he is. Now, the RCMP confirmed that they did speak to Pat Carlson regarding Amber's disappearance, but they could not identify anything linking him to Amber.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
So it could be that because Pat Carlson is a known danger in this community and his voice is similar enough to this person's voice that two independent occasions and two independent women were like, that sounds like that really scary predator in our community.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
It could just be that or it could be Pat Carlson and they just have nothing to link him to Amber because she doesn't fall into the mold of what he's been captured for. She wasn't going to the ranch to look for work in exchange for a free room and board. All we really know is Pat Carlson is a predator of young women in this area and he's known.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Absolutely. And listen to this case, guys. I know we've covered a few of these where there's just so little information. Not so here. This is honestly very similar to the Delphi case where the victim herself takes matters into her own hands and records probably her last moments that.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
If you're going to be a sexual predator in an area, you're probably going to be on the top of the list of people linking you to them. So I don't know if this has any teeth. I think we need to know more. And obviously they talked to him and it didn't go anywhere in terms of arrest.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
So I know we've kind of drawn some parallels with the Delphi case, which is obviously very active in the courts right now, but on a lot of true crime media outlets, that's why we're drawing that comparison. But the fact that the Delphi case has gotten so much attention for very similar facts. Makes me so confused why Amber's case doesn't get the same type of attention because it should.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
She also knew something was wrong and took matters into her own hands. At the end of the day, it didn't help her in terms of saving her life. But if this case is solved, it's not going to be because of the RCMP. It's going to be because of her quick thinking and the 17-minute call that they have. So yes, this case has the potential to be solved. They have the audio. We have the man's voice.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
You all just heard it. They have partial remains from Amber. I don't know what's on it. I don't know if there's DNA. I don't know if there's indications of how she ultimately died. That could be something that leads them to... The killer, something like, for example, if you see knife marks on her skeletons, for example, that might be able to link you somehow to a particular type of hunting knife.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
is a time capsule for us on the investigative side to try and find, which makes this all the more aggravating, to be very honest, in terms of the investigation. Because when I first started researching this case, I was like, oh, I know who did it. I was so wrong. I was so wrong because you'll see why we say that. So put all of your thoughts about what these types of cases are like aside.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Something like that. We don't know that, but because they have partial remains, there could be a lot of information they could glean from it. There's also probably additional evidence that we don't know about. And there could be a link between Amber's case and others in the area which remain unsolved.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And if those cases get solved, maybe we'll find out more, whether from jailhouse confessions or trying to get reduced sentences so we get confessions, something like that. But there is absolutely the potential for this case to be solved.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And I think the first step is to get that call recording to as many ears as possible, especially people who live in Alberta, because I do think he is familiar with this area. Even if he doesn't live there, I think he passes through often, has family there, something like that.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And someone probably knows this person and they may be the link that can really crack this case and finally bring Amber's killer to justice.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Listen to everything because we probably have the killer's voice. Someone may recognize his voice. So if you don't listen to us talk, listen to the clip of his voice and see if we can't bring some justice to Amber and her family.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
I think we've said plenty throughout this, which is that this case is solvable. May it be also a warning for other cases that we never
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
have a botched investigation like this again that we take these missing vulnerable populations seriously and that hopefully just share her name share that 60 second clip i don't care if people listen to this episode or not i just want them to hear i'm gonna call it the killer's voice because if we can identify i think we can bring justice for jacob bring justice for tootsie and for amber of course
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And thank you guys for giving us a platform to talk about these cases that I think can really benefit from the exposure.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Tomorrow's Monday. You're right. We have time. Plenty of time. Let tomorrow worry about itself.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Otherwise, we definitely need to talk about it. That's funny.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Yes. No, I appreciate that. I mean, you were so good and put everything we needed to know on it.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Don't mess it up. I just don't know how you're even upright right now.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Anyone else do that throughout your day? If you're having like a really rough day where you're like, as you blink, you're like, this is my micro nap. Anyone else? Is that just me? I've definitely done that in trial where I'm like, micro nap, micro nap. I feel great. I feel great. I'm back. Okay, I'm going to try this one.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
In 2010, Amber was 20 years old. She was a young and devoted mother to her 14-month-old son, Jacob. Jacob was her whole world, and Amber was working really hard to create a good life for him and for herself. She was devoted to him. She worked hard. She was really the model of what you would want in a young mother.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
But you see, this was difficult, as it is for many women, because at the time of the story, Amber was trying to afford a home for her and Jacob. And it's expensive. It's incredibly expensive. I think a lot of people are in a similar situation now.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And so while she was trying to save up to be able to provide for her son and to find a stable home, she was staying with family and then also a local women's shelter called the Unity House. Artie, you're seeing kind of the classic signs of a vulnerable woman. very young, right? And has a young son who is totally dependent on her.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
And she is single, meaning she is everything to this child in terms of financial support, emotional support. It's a lot on one person. And even more dangerously, She's in situations where people can see that she's transient. When we have transiency, a lot of times law enforcement chalk it up to they're transient at some point, they're going to be transient all the time.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
So no one's ever really missing. That's unfortunately a bias that law enforcement have.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
look just because she's not where you think she should be there's all sorts of places she might be so how do we know she's missing i mean that's going to happen and it's one of those things that makes it so much harder to solve a case so while she's at this woman's shelter unity house she meets a woman named evangeline and the pair become fast friends i can imagine it must be a lonely life being 20 years old
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
having a 14-month-old son, having to be the sole breadwinner. And she finds a friend to kind of share these burdens with, be able to live life with. And they hit it off really quickly. And in August of 2010, even though they were new friends, they decided to take a spontaneous trip to Edmonton.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Now, Amber's mother, Tootsie, had some hesitations about Amber going on this trip so last minute with someone she didn't know that well. But Amber reassured her that everything would be fine.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
amber works hard all the time she just wanted a girl's weekend away with a friend and i i can certainly understand that you know a quick trip it's more affordable when you get to go with a friend and you get to just blow off some steam and kind of forget the day in and day out drudgery of work and child care but she does bring her son with her so evangeline amber and jacob get on a flight to edmonton on august 17 2010.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
They'd made reservations at a hotel outside of the city of Nisku, Alberta, and they arrived to Edmonton without incident. It was a pretty easy trip up there, and they're excited to just get away for the weekend. Sadly, Amber would never return home from this trip. 14 years later, this case is still unsolved and Amber's killer has never been brought to justice.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Jacob is a teenager now, probably does not remember his mother and does not know what happened to his mother.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Again, I have not been to Nisku or Edmonton, but if you look at the map, it's really only about 35 minutes away from Edmonton. There's clearly, just like most cities, there's circles. And the further you get out from the circle highways, the farther you are from downtown, Edmonton's clearly the center of like the business district.
The Prosecutors
277. The Murder of Amber Tuccaro -- The Ride
Nisku is like just a bit outside of the big circle in terms of shopping and whatnot. So we're not talking about like some farmland hours away. They're within about basically 30, 35 minute driving from there, but much too far to walk. There's not going to be buses that go back and forth. Certainly not 730 at night. So this is August. There's still going to be some daylight.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
They also see, terrifyingly, a man crouching in the corner. I don't know about you, but we're not going to have to pause the podcast now so that I can go check behind every toilet in my house.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Oh my gosh. So this man, crouching in the corner, actually doesn't put up a fight at all. He's found behind the toilet, and he comes out on his own, without argument, not forced, and he's subsequently arrested. And this wasn't a man at all. It was a 16-year-old boy named Daniel LaPlante, and he had been intermittently living in the wall of the Bowens' home for six years.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
If you've been around for the past four and a half years, you've heard this story before, so I'll make it a shortened version. You can find the episode where I tell the full story. The reason I said that this story hits way, way, way too close to home is while this all sounds like a movie script, I've lived this, and so I know it's not a movie script.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So my first year of law school, those of you who heard us cover the horrifying story of of a med student who was murdered there my first year. That same semester when everyone has curfews imposed by campus police because we can't find a murderer on the loose. And all of us are just kind of living in northeastern of the country where it's dark all the time. It's snowing all the time.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
There's a murder on the loose on campus. And My class is pretty small. There's only, you know, like a little over 100 people in my law school class. So you get to know everyone very well, especially the first semester. Everyone's hanging out at each other's homes and getting to know each other. There are five girls in my class, which is like 10% of my class.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
They're all good. They're truly, truly all good. But thank you for that little breath of fresh air before we dive into really one of the most horrific cases.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Literally, they all live together in a house in East Rock. If you know New Haven, it's like the residential part of New Haven, not apartment buildings, but old hundred year old homes. This is where I live to East Rock. And we went over there all the time for, you know, watching football or just. baking cookies, having parties with our class.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
It was a good hangout place since so many of our classmates lived there. But I knew these girls well. They were my classes. And we'd all just met each other. We'd known each other for like a month at this point. So no one knew each other very well. But some of the girls who I got to know a little bit better than the other girls in the house started
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
like gossiping a little bit about their roommates. They're like, I don't know who it is in our house, but every time I buy groceries, someone like eats all of my groceries. They eat all my cereal. They drink all my milk. They eat my cheese. Kind of annoying because we're all on, you know, student loans and groceries are kind of expensive. And I heard this from multiple of the girls.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
They're like, I don't know who keeps eating my bananas, specifically bananas. Like someone was pilfering all the bananas in that house. So one of the girls was like getting a lot of potassium. And this went on for about a month.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Like every time I went to a party at their house, someone would be talking about how annoying it was that one of the girls in the house was just not doing her share and eating everyone else's groceries and not contributing. Common roommate problem, right? Until one day we have class and everyone has different hours of class, but because it's law school, you can come home in the middle of the day.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
One of the girls comes home at like two o'clock. So after lunchtime, and yet again, she kind of sees like craziness crumbs all over the kitchen and someone's eating lunch and just like left it there, which is annoying because we have a lot of rats and vermin problem in New Haven. And she hears something in the basement, but there's no rooms in the basement. Like it's just an unfinished basement.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
When we get into this, I know I've told this story on the podcast before. You can tell it again. I will tell it again because it's so horrific and it's so on point. But this experience of mine that you will hear about from law school touches right on what we're about to talk about. I did not die in my experience, but you see how close to kind of the edge you always are.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
No one's down there. No bedrooms are down there. And she hears something and it's pretty loud. And so she kind of walks down there and she doesn't see anything because the lights don't work, of course. She comes back up, whatever. She goes to class. Another day, another roommate comes home. She hears something, too. She's like, who's down there? That's really weird.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Like, none of us hang out down there. There's nothing down there. So she walks downstairs, looks around. Nothing there either. Very, very brave, shall I say. They are not like me. Fast forward, like, another month. This is still in the first semester. They start having, like, a powwow. We need to have a house meeting.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Whoever is like just leaving the kitchen filthy and eating everyone's food, you got to stop. If we're going to live together the whole year, like let's just put it out in the open. And they all were like, wait, someone's eating your food? And all five of them realized that all of them had food that was being eaten and it was none of them. And they think they can trust each other. They don't know.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
But they started seeing like trash just littered all over their house. And it was like a man was using it. It wasn't... like a woman stuff. And so they start investigating and they finally call the police. And what would you know? Someone had been living in their basement, a squatter, a man in his 20s. We call him townies. He was not a student.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
He lived in town and he'd been living in the basement for like, years, because this house was rented out to students every year. So it turned over every single year. And there was no like continuity where you would figure out that someone was living down there. And he had been squatting for who knows how long and showered in their showers, used their bath products, ate all their food.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I mean, went through their stuff because they would talk about how their drawers, like their underwear drawers would Someone had sifted through them, which is kind of disconcerting. They just thought their roommates were looking for something. And this man just helped himself and he slept there with five other girls and none of them were murdered by the freaking grace of God.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So that happened my first semester alongside the murderer. So I'm not cool with this story.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So that's why this case really struck a chord with me because it was a little too close to home.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I will say I was kind of raised. I always felt like if someone did the chivalrous thing and asked me on a date, I would say yes to one date because they went through all the effort. Even if I wasn't going to like there was not going to be handholding or kissing, whatever. It's just like a nice thing. They did a nice thing. I will reciprocate. And then that's it.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
This makes me rethink everything about my childhood.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
very, very bad consequences because on October 9th, 1987, now that he's in Superior Court, what do we typically talk about? Bail, right? If you're going to get bail, what's it going to be set at? And if you can meet bail. And this judge decides, probably not in small part, that Daniel's relatively young at this point. He was very young when all these things happened.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And while all of the charges are very serious, nothing quote unquote terrible happened. right the kidnapping was relatively minor no one got hurt and so he decides to set bail for daniel out at ten thousand dollars now his mom gets a second mortgage on their home to cover the bail money and as a result because he's made bail daniel is released on october 9th 1987 and
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Now, when you're out on bail, it means you are out pending your next hearing. So he's expected back in court a couple months later on December 11th, 1987. I think you already know where this is going. Things are going to happen before December 11th. October 14th, 1987, just about five days after he's released on bail.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Sometime between noon and 2.15 p.m., Daniel breaks into the home of the Pindell family located at 38 Elm Street, Pepperell, Massachusetts. While in their home, he steals two Ruger .22 caliber guns and their holsters, as well as a large sum of cash. So this is getting serious. He, first of all, breaks into a home and now is stealing cash and and guns before he just had a hatchet.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Now we have a gun. Three weeks later, Daniel's stepfather locates one of the stolen guns in Daniel's laundry basket. Now, when confronted about this, Daniel claims that he'd actually gotten this gun a year prior when he came upon it. He doesn't confess that he has just stolen this gun. And his parents just, I guess, believe him. because they don't find a second gun and they kind of leave it there.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Like, if you found your child's gun in their dirty laundry basket, even if you told me you got it a year earlier, still stolen, still not your gun, still why do you have a gun, and why are you hiding it?
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
You definitely can't have a gun. Like, there's lots of red flags.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Yeah. And based on what he's stealing so far, it seems like pretty common burglary items, right? Like it seems like he's truly burglarizing these homes to steal things of value. Gun, valuable. Large sum of cash, valuable. At this point. In the 1980s, if you watch Saved by the Bell, a cordless phone is a very coveted item. Cable boxes, things that he can basically sell and make some money off of.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So he's taking things of value. This is important because we've covered other types of cases where something goes horribly wrong. And we note that, for example, the Oconee Lake murders, we note that while someone has clearly come into the home, there's nothing seemingly of value missing. And that's important because what's the purpose of them coming in?
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Was it to commit an act of violence or was it to steal? So far, what we see of him taking seems to point him in the direction of breaking in for the purposes of taking things of value so that he can, I don't know, continue to live his life of leisure without having to work.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So this brings us to late November. He's been out for almost two months at this point. Daniel asks his brother, Stephen LaPlante, and his friend, Michael Pulaski, for some bullets. Now, he claims he just wanted to make a large bullet from all these smaller bullets to sell.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
You don't usually make your own bullets and like a bigger bullet isn't more valuable than smaller bullets. You just look. He's out on bail for a pretty horrific crime of, you know, kidnapping by hatchet and continually, you know, living in someone's home. Those these sorts of things. And he's been found with a stolen gun that he claims is not, you know. illicit or whatever.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And then he asked for a bunch of bullets, but he's like, don't worry, I'm not going to do anything. I'm just going to melt them down and make one big bullet. So his friend, Michael Pulaski, gives him a number of .22 caliber bullets from a carton that he owned. I guess not asking questions about it. On December 1st, 1987... Daniel LaPlante breaks into the Gustafson home for a second time.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
This time, he doesn't just have that .22 caliber firearm that he stole previously. This time, it's loaded with the bullets that Pulaski gave him. Priscilla and her five-year-old son, William, returned home that afternoon after she picked him up from the babysitter around 1 p.m. And Daniel was already in the home. And he hears them enter the home.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And while he debates jumping out a window, he ultimately decides not to do so and instead stay in the home. So while he's in the home, you got to have a plan. If you're not going to run, what are you going to do? There's really one other thing. You're not going to wait it out because your chance to escape has passed.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So instead, Daniel confronts Priscilla and the five-year-old William while brandishing the loaded 22 firearm. He orders the two of them into the bedroom. Does this sound familiar, by the way? This is what happened to the Bowens. Where he puts William in the closet and he tied Priscilla to the bed. He would later tell police that this was all he planned to do.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
He was just going to put William in the closet, tie Priscilla to the bed, and he was going to leave. I have my serious doubts that that was all he was going to do because he could have just forced them into the bedroom, tell them to count to a thousand, and run out the door. That's not what he did. Instead, he does something utterly, utterly horrific. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Okay, so they go to trial pretty quickly. I mean, you've heard the evidence. It's pretty strong here. Daniel's trial begins in October of 1988. And at this point, he's 18 years old, and he's being tried as an adult. And frankly, his crimes are so serious that I could see a judge would say he'd be tried as an adult, even if he were 17. The prosecution laid out the evidence to the jury.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Hair, blood and saliva samples were all obtained from Daniel and Daniel was determined to be a type A secretor, which matched the evidence on the scene. Fibers from the flannel shirt that the dogs found in the woods were also found to match fibers on the shirt that Daniel was wearing on the day of the murders, as well as in various places at the scene of the murders.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
In other words, this is very, very strong evidence tying him to the murders. In fact, a strand of hair on one of Daniel's socks was shown to belong to Abigail Gustafson. Remember, unfortunately, she sounds like she fought back and he had to use blunt force. This is so sad that it clearly was a pretty violent struggle because her hand ends up on one of his socks.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Finally, the shoe print outside the home matched the shoes Daniel was wearing at the time of his arrest. Not to mention, the tracking dogs led investigators right to Daniel's doorstep. I mean, this is as strong as it gets, so some of you may be wondering, why did he go to trial? Well, Daniel's defense team implied that Daniel was insane. Remember, insanity is a defense that you have to present.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
It doesn't keep you from going to trial. But they only imply it because they don't call any witnesses of their own or present their own case. Daniel also did not testify in his own defense. So his team simply suggested in cross-examination of the prosecution's witnesses that there were other suspects, even suggesting that Daniel's brother could have done it.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Yeah, this is already starting out like a horror movie. It sounds like The Haunting. It sounds like something just horrifically wrong. And it's gotten so bad that they're even thinking about leaving. So let's walk through what exactly they were experiencing. December 8th, 1986. At 5.30 p.m., Tina and her sister Karen and their friend Kathleen and their father Frank all arrive home.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
But Daniel was the easiest to pin that crime on.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So that's what happens for LaPlante. Basically, his sentence gets a second look. And on March 23rd, 2017, Middlesex Superior Court Judge Helene Kazanjian formally resentenced LaPlante to the maximum possible punishment. three consecutive life sentences with the opportunity for parole after 45 years from the date of his conviction. So what this just means is they had to re-look at the sentence.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
It wasn't automatic, and it's still just as horrific as the day he was convicted. So he gets the same sentence, but he is able to get parole after 45 years. Now, this was partially based on a forensic psychiatrist evaluation of LaPlante, which found that he was not remorseful for his crimes. I would say not remorseful and just the horrificness of all of this.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Like there was so little regard for life that he would have, I think, kept on killing if given the opportunity. And the only reason he hasn't killed again is that the manhunt ensued immediately after and he was basically apprehended just days after the murders happened.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
In March of 2019, LaPlante's attorneys first appealed Daniel's case for early parole eligibility in March, citing previous court rulings that say juveniles convicted of murder should be given a meaningful opportunity to reengage with society. In this case, I think Daniel's reengagement with society would probably be in the form of committing more murders.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
But his attorneys cited the change in state law that allows juveniles convicted of murder with extreme cruelty and atrocity to ask for parole after they've been behind bars for a minimum of 30 years. Again, the whole not remorseful thing. We're not talking about someone who's like 12. He was really on the cusp of 18. He was already out on bond at the time. He's stealing guns.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
His crime is truly not one that really draws on the sympathy strings of someone's heart.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
But when they pull up, they immediately notice that the things in their house are not as they left it. The lights were all turned on. And strangely enough, as if out of a horror movie, all the radios and TVs were turned on in the home. So there was sound blaring. This was crazy. Not something they had done. Frank Bowen was immediately suspicious. Good man. Finally. Finally, Dan.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So there's really no mystery about this case. It was, I think, open and shut from the beginning, but I think it is a fascinating view into a very short amount of time in which the crimes escalated so quickly. And you can clearly see where Daniel's trajectory was going. It was only going to become more and more violent and more and more horrific and The justice system works swiftly in this case.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And I think by doing so, both the police finding him quickly and then him being convicted and the judges who were asked to revisit his sentences and his petitions for parole did the right things, which is to look at the specific case and not just treat him as a quote unquote juvenile. Like, you know, juvenile is just thrown around as if that absolves all sins.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
There are some who truly have committed such atrocities that they need to be removed from society so as to prevent additional murders. I think each of these people, each of these judges, prosecutors who touched this case knew what they had on their hands. And they knew if they were the one to let Daniel out, like that first judge was who let him out on $10,000 bail.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
blood would be on their hands because he had proven he would do that. I don't think everyone is beyond rehabilitation, but I think in this case, you have to look at the individual and this individual truly had a deep disregard for life and the ability to execute swiftly with absolutely no hesitation and would do so again had he not been stopped.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So I will say the one good thing out of this is more people did not die because of the judicial system working the way it should.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
You had to have all the things turned on. And so he starts looking cautiously inside each room. I just have to say, if I roll up to my house and the lights were previously off and now they're on and it used to be silent and now things are blaring, I'm not going to go check what's happening. I don't want to find a ghost. I don't want to find a zombie. I don't want to find a serial killer.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And this is hard. We don't know a lot about his family, but the person or the people who could have noticed this deviant behavior other than the Bowens, who he was found living in their home, would be his family. He's 16 years old. He's a juvenile. Where's your kid for six months that you don't notice he's not living? with you or not where he's supposed to be.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I think obviously this is indicative of the kind of home he was living in. But we talk about all the time, how do you turn crime around? How do you make a meaningful difference on recidivism rates? How do you meaningfully stop these horrific crimes? How do you weed out or stop the breeding of monsters in our society? Ultimately, I think there are going to be people who We don't understand.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
They may have the perfect family and they turn out just fine. But I think, sorry guys, if you came here for parenting advice, you're not going to like it. Gentle parenting ain't going to do it. Like, especially kids like Daniel who showed deviant behavior pretty early on, you needed some structure.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Maybe some of that structure could have come in the form of knowing where your son lived for six months or something like that, or knowing that it was beyond your control. But my first thought is, man, if the police came looking for my child, I understand their rights as a lawyer. I understand that you're supposed to speak with a lawyer.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
But if I knew I had like a killer on my hands and I could prevent more lives from being lost, I'd be like, take him, talk to him now. Like, let's just stop the horror. But a lot of sadness here for all the people affected. For, oh my goodness, a family who was literally annihilated for no reason. We don't really know the reason. It wasn't random. He broke in there twice.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
He lived half a mile from them. You know, your imagination can run wild why he targeted that specific family. May have been because they were... happy family. I think this is a very, very helpful view into the minds of certain criminals and why these long sentences sometimes just have to exist.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So just so you know, if that's the way you plan on killing me, bad choice because I'm just going to run away. That's not Frank, though. Frank is there with three young girls that he's in charge of. And he begins doing what we see in a lot of movies. He walks around slowly and he opens door after door. You do that because you expect to find something, right?
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Yeah, sure. Let's answer our question.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Yeah, thank you to that person for writing and so many of you for writing your stories and also those of you who work in the field of child exploitation for giving us your perspective from where you work. Those of you, I know a lot of people probably skipped the William Ayliss episode because they didn't want to hear such a horrific story. I will say for what a horrific subject.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
It is an incredibly bright light because you are hearing really the story from the perspective of a former victim turned someone who got justice decades later. And you can hear more about this story also on Jason Blair's podcast. He just had an episode come out about the A-list case as well with an interview. I think you'd really enjoy it again.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Very dark subject, but I think these are important stories to tell because true crime isn't just for, you know, entertainment consumption. It is also to give voice to victims and many people, sometimes they just need to hear that it's been done before and that it's possible. And I think that's what the A-list case can really offer you people here.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Well, while he's doing this, he noticed that more things in the house are out of place. He notices, for example, that the basement toilet had been used. Okay, so maybe we're stepping outside the realm of not ghosts because ghosts, as I understand it, don't need to use the restroom.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I thought that was like the dialect that Bostonians do and you were like trying to be all Bostonian.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So Frank continues scanning the house and he opens a closet towards the front of the house and staring right back at him, this man was wearing a furry coat with his face painted and his hair sticking straight up. I guess this is exactly what you expect to see if you are cautiously going through your home where it's clear that someone has been through it.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I'm the pun-erific one. My words are actually about you.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And one of the most horrifying things is facing him. Because not only is it a seemingly crazy person, it's a crazy person who's armed with a hatchet and a wrench that can do some serious harm.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
No, no, I really I really actually can't imagine. You know, we've talked about the murder committed by the clown who rings the doorbell. And I told you that if a clown rang my doorbell, I would run probably because of that story. But also here, this is horrifying on so many levels because this is clearly not just a home intrusion.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Turning the lights on, turning the radios on, being there long enough to have to use the bathroom. This means someone's been there for a while and they're lying in wait, basically expecting, if not leaving a Hansel and Gretel-like trail of breadcrumbs to be found. And that's exactly what happens. He's found and he's not done yet.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Could I also point out one other thing? Let's say he didn't find anything. Let's say he opened every single door and it's he finds nothing.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Come in. Let's do our sleepover after all. Like, no, I'm not going to stay. We checked all the closets. Not the attic, but, you know, the closets are good. Okay, well, the horror doesn't end there because it's not like he finds the intruder and the intruder just like walks himself out and say, yeah, sorry, turned all the lights on. Your electric bill is going to be real high.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
No, the intruder calmly instructed Frank and the girls to go to the bedroom. And at this point, Frank does some quick thinking. He doesn't do what the intruder said. In fact, he slams the door and he wedges it shut behind him. Good thinking. Locking the intruder on the other side. So while he does this, that's about as far as his plan went.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Because as soon as he locks him in, he's like, well, now I have an intruder. who has a hatchet, so, you know, hatchet versus door, hatchet will eventually win. He has to come up with a plan. And while he's trying to come up with a plan, Tina Bowen panics and does what I was going to do. She jumps out the window and she runs as fast as she can to the neighbor's house to report what's going on.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Thank goodness, by the way, Tina, way to go, Tina, because otherwise help wasn't going to be on the way.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Also, this is an every man for himself situation. If a man with a hatchet's in my closet, I would say all four of you scatter.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Two days pass, and on December 10th, Frank Bowen calls the Pepperell Police Department again. This time when the police arrive, Frank tells them that when he got home to grab some of their family belongings because they had, remember, left the house and were staying away, I would stay away probably forever. I'd be like, I cede this house to you, painted man. But they are smartly not staying there.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So he comes home to pick up some things, and he sees the intruder from two days prior in the window. Now... He's inside the house. This time, Frank doesn't go in by himself. He calls the police. The police come inside and they are met with a horrifying sight. The police sees a knife stabbed into the wall of the house and a message was written on the furniture in shaving cream.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Okay, I love it. That was like, you guys know of my love of gummy gummies.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And it said, I am in your room. Literally the stuff of nightmares. Right. Another message was written on the wall in the kitchen and it said, I'll be back with a photo of the Bowen daughters with a knife stabbed through it. And as if this is not horrifying enough, there are two glasses of champagne on the counter poured, but neither was drank. And a BB gun was found in the basement.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I just... Doesn't this sound like a script? Like we're reading a script of a movie.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
candies so i'm like because i'm a child apparently you're supposed to lose that taste for like gummy candies as you get more refined and older and you like you know rich tastes like chocolate which i also love but one of my favorite gummies are peach rings so i figured you were gonna talk about peach thank you thank you i love gummies as well i'm a fan just of gummy bears just the look they're all good gummy bears
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Is it for the girls? Is it for him when he kills each girl? Like, what is this? What's the symbolism?
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Yeah, absolutely. And also note that this is two days later. So is this intruder just hanging out indefinitely until they come back to see these messages? Did he do these messages right after they had left the house on the 8th? Or did he just come back two days later and he happened? The fact that he's seen in the window, I don't think it was that much of a coincidence.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I think what it shows is the intruder's been there the whole time. Right. Because for it to be a coincidence that he sees him when he just happens to drop by, he doesn't know when Frank's going to drop by to get his belongings. They've been gone for two days. So the fact that he even catches a sight of him, this intruder in the window, tells me that he's been just hanging around at their house.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Like at this point, I seed house to you, painted man. That's it. I'm not I'm never coming back. But even more strangely. Despite a clear intrusion, not only did Frank see someone through the window, there's knives stabbed through pictures of the Bowen girls. There's messages written in the house. The police can't find a sign of an intruder.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
This really puzzled investigators because all the doors were locked and there were no footprints in the snow leading away from the house to the house. Anything like that. But the officers weren't giving up, which I'm glad because this is clearly a soon to be crime scene. It's definitely a crime scene because there's an intruder. And they searched the home again.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
This time they noticed that the toilet in the basement, remember that toilet that had been used two days prior when Frank came home? They noticed that there's a false wall behind it built to hide the plumbing, but it also left a small triangular shaped space. The officers looked into that space and they found a pile of dirty clothes, but that's not all.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I just wanted to talk about Leo. Yes, I mean, that is right up there with Robert Wong as well. What really struck me, and that took, like you said, a lot of work because there was huge case files, which Gilbert King, he did the podcast on Leo Schofield, and he shared so much of this research with us, and it was an enormous amount of work.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And that interaction in and of itself was so incredible because... It showed how there is a good side of true crime, right? That we are all in it to try and reach the truth. And we knew how his podcast came out. I listened to it. It was amazing. But I will say, when we first started researching the case...
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I kind of thought we'd come out the other way, to be completely honest, because this had been a case that had been upheld and there had been a trial. There were all these things. And usually these types of cases, when there's innocence movements behind them, there's something that's been left out of trial transcripts or something like that. So I...
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Fully expected, to be honest, once I read all the trial transcripts, it would either be a close case or I could see why some people would think that there was a wrongful conviction. But I would probably reach the fact that, no, no, there's enough evidence there. Hindsight's 20-20, but, you know, there's probably making a lot of hay about nothing.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And because I went into it with it, and then obviously we did not come out that way after looking at all the evidence, it was incredible. Because a lot of you have asked, have you ever looked, you think everyone's guilty or you're prosecutors, we know how you're going to come out. I mean, that's not how I approach my job ever. That's how I've ever approached any legal case.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And that's not how we approach our research on these types of cases. We have our experiences, but And we have our – we understand the arguments that are often made on the other side that often fail on appeal.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
We often see kind of the dark side of true crime when there is no – there's a lot of attention paid for innocence claims when there's really nothing there, which is sometimes a waste of resources when those resources can be used elsewhere. And so we've seen all that, and taking those experiences here –
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
It was amazing to see how someone who had researched this case for a very long time didn't hold their own research with tight fists, but rather the purpose of doing that research was for justice. And so he held it with open hands. And that's a scary thing for any researcher or journalist to do because you don't know what we're going to do with that material, right?
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
You don't know how we're going to come out with it. And so the experience for me was very, it was a rollercoaster ride. It was an emotional rollercoaster ride of living through Leo Schofield's case file as if I was on the case from the beginning. And you don't always get that experience because you don't get a whole case file before you usually live a part of the case.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
So that was a great experience to see a case from beginning all the way to, you know, and we're not quite at the end yet. But to a prosecutor doesn't typically get to live that entire life of the case the way that we did in recording Leah Schofield.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
You know what I feel like? I feel like we're like Hobby Lobby or Costco who puts out the Christmas in July decorations for sale.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
We've been on, you know, several shows, not just Court TV now. I mean, yeah, we've had some, we had Nancy Grace on.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And just so you know, the way these interviews work, we are very bad business people. If you can't tell by our Patreon non-tiers, by the way, if you're listening to this, we had resisted having a Patreon page at all and truly started a Patreon page because so many people asked if they could just send us money in the mail. And I was like, don't do that. That's like really fraught.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Please don't send cash. and the mail. So we kind of started one at the request of people, but they're all the same tiers. You can give like a cent, you can give $10, you can give $1. Like they're all the same. There's no tiers. You get the same material, no matter what. This shows you how we're bad business people, but how these interviews work.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Maybe if we like quit our day jobs and had time to plan things, we would actually be able to plan interviews. But almost all of these interviews are reach outs to us, which is incredible because we have some incredible interviewees and I can't believe they want to give their time away.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
to, by the way, record on our time, which is like late at night after our kids have gone to bed and we're like, I'm recording in my closet, my ever-changing backdrop of closets. And they all show up super professional with like professional lighting. And I'm like, well, sorry about my closet, guys.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
But I think that is incredible because either you guys are reaching out to these people and saying, hey, we'd love to hear you on The Prosecutors, or they're hearing about our podcast and just asking to be on the show, which I think is incredible. It's incredibly humbling that they want to give their time. So I just wanted to put that out there.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
So if there's people you want to hear us interview, let us know, but also maybe let them know because we do get requests and we really almost always say yes.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I know what your favorite one is. I'm not going to give it away, but it's so cute that this is your favorite case. I'm guessing it has to be your favorite case.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Can I just embarrass you for a second? Oh, my goodness. Well, first of all, it was such a great case because you're right. The kids really picked the case. And of course, we're talking about Littitz Elementary, who has I mean, they have been such a great supporter of the podcast. So this year, because we got our act together a little bit more, we usually do a case with them via Zoom.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And they do all the research and we talk to them via Zoom. But this year we flew into Lidditz, Pennsylvania, which is truly like right around Amish country. It's not a big city at all. I think we had to fly to a midsize airport drive like an hour and a half to get there. But it was so worth it. And they treated us well.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
like celebrities which was so sweet played music for us did a version of our theme song that so many of you one star reviewers hate they loved it they they made it their parent teacher assembly song that they performed for their concert you guys i'm getting teary-eyed remembering all this but they picked the case meaning we did not pick this case and you guys It's not. Brett is a renaissance man.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
We all know this. He knows everything about everything. And I do not say that facetiously. I have to research things. Brett just knows things off the top of his head. I don't know how he does it, but he does. I think he like sleeps on encyclopedias and it's absorbed into his brain.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
So I didn't realize that Brett wasn't like this massive DB Cooper fan, that it was only through this research that he learned about him. And y'all, once he researches something, he grasps on. And I truly believe you are in the presence of D Brett Cooper. He is no longer Brett. It has become part of him. We left this case behind six months ago. It's still with him.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I can't have a conversation with him without him texting me something about DB Cooper. So I just wanted to embarrass you for a second because it's really cute how much you love DB Cooper.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And I think we shared this at the time that we were recording this. But, like, the Littitz Elementary students also – first of all, they did a great job researching, as they always do. Like, talk about having some great teachers. But they drew these amazing D.B. Cooper pictures, like artwork for us. I mean, like, we have dozens of them. And they're so good.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
First of all, I'm not even that good at drawing. And these kids sure are. So, like, my – I don't really have a podcast studio, but my closet is like plastered with this artwork from these kids. So DB Cooper's like ever present in my mind as well. Cause we have fantastic artwork from the kids and yes, Brett loved him so much. He wouldn't give me any at first.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
That was my fault. Sorry. I pushed it back, but Sophie. Okay. She's like underselling it. So we got to meet Sophie and so many of you in person after having gotten to talk to you, you know, on these lives, um, Sophie, like literally, I think she brought me water and snacks and gummy bears every hour on the hour, along with many of you who are in the chat here. We truly have the best, best friends.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I can't even say like listeners because it wasn't just about like meeting us. I mean, thank you, Sophie. That was like so incredibly touching. And she also drew me the best cheese artwork ever. the world, right? You can't see it right here. My kids actually call it my cheese wall.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
But that's what's so awesome about this community is you guys seem to have formed real friendships with each other that go beyond the podcast and you share it with us. I mean, this podcast has just exceeded my wildest dreams in terms of community.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Thank you. Thank you. You reminded me actually of something else that we came up with this year, the hat of hate. Oh yeah.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And I think another issue is the amount of time that passed in between the murders and the arrest. So obviously we know that in Delphi, the murders occurred in 2017 and an arrest wasn't made until 2022. In that period of time, we've talked about this a lot, when there are vacuums of information, especially in this day and age and a very robust true crime online community.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
a lot of people fill the void. And unfortunately, those filling the void, just in general, because anyone can have a microphone, anyone can be on YouTube, anyone can be on Reddit, you get a lot of armchair detectives who can create a lot more harm than good.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
So we saw a lot in the Delphi case with false side-by-side images on Facebook, like literally pulling someone's Facebook profile, someone you don't know and saying, doesn't it look like this sketch? And that was really rampant for not just a couple months, a couple years, but like half a decade. And it became kind of a life of its own that had nothing to do with the actual case.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
But there were enough kind of vacuums of information. And whether that was because the investigation was the press conferences put out too little information, too much information, not enough. And all those things, we can analyze that all day long.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
But I think just the fact when you have a very, very hot murder in terms of people's attention on it, and then you have no information for five, six, seven years. People's imaginations start going wild. People start making wild accusations. They start looking at each other askance in a small town.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And there are things that are hard to overcome after five years of essentially conspiracy theories and false information that Idaho didn't have to go through because an arrest was made relatively close in time to the murders.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Okay, go ahead, because there's a couple that I'm sorting through.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Oh, sorry, Canada. Oh, that should have been an obvious one.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And the judge who, you know, this is relevant. It's a white, it's a white witness who is wearing a bow tie and like a seersucker suit and looks the part of someone who'd be saying this.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
The judge has this gleam in his eye. He is having the time of his life, like the time of his life.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And I'm just like – And the jury literally – because if you live in Alabama, it's on Wikipedia why it's called the black belt. The jury's mouth is physically hanging open and they are like watching a tennis match. And they're like – some are giggling because it is so embarrassing. And like everyone in the courtroom is just like clawing their eyes out.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Man, I forgot about that one. I'm not going to say that case drove me out of my prosecutor life, but it took a lot of years off my life.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Well, this is not the worst thing. A lot of interesting things have happened in trial. I think you guys have heard the story about how I went into labor in trial. So I'm not going to tell that one unless you want to hear it. But another funny story because that trial, man, that was so fun. That was a tough time. But I'm glad we did it together. But this is not the worst, but it was hilarious.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
This just tells you about this trial. So another one of our key witnesses is like, oh, good old football coach.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I think he called me little lady for like three years straight, right? I don't think he knew I was on the team. He's like, hey, little lady, you doing okay? And... I mean, we were like investigating this case in the midst of COVID and we were trying to be really respectful.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
We would do interviews out in the open air on the side of the streets, you know, because like we didn't want to go into a room. And he would just like walk into a room and be like, I'm not scared of no COVID.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I really do wonder how other countries hear about our podcast. So if you like have a great story of how you heard about us, please let us know, especially in non-English speaking countries. I think that's fascinating.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And like coughing on me. And I'm like, yes, sir. Okay. And, I mean, he was a jolly old guy. I mean, also, like, a felon. But not before we got to him. And so he is... He has a lot of relevant information. But this man can't remember anything. Like, I mean, he just... He's got a lot of stories. He tells football stories all day long.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
He can tell you the score of every single high school football team that ever happened since the 1970s. But he can't tell you, like... In a straightforward way, how he, you know, uses his bank account, for example, you know, things that are important for like a money laundering case. And so he's on the stand for like three days straight.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I mean, I know we just covered a lot of trials, the Karen Reed case, the Delphi trial where certain witnesses, you know, are on the stand all day and people are like, this was the longest day of my life because this witness testified for eight hours. He testified for like 28 hours straight in that voice talking like that.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And so there's one point we have to show that his cell phone pings match where he's going. And we take out this map of small town, nowhere's Alabama. I'm talking like no traffic lights. And we're like, can you explain? And all we need him to say is that the cell phone pings are accurate. This is as simple as, well, we have your cell phone. Do these match where you were that day?
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Or just in general, these are the areas that you live. Do these cell phone pings match? All you had to do was say, yep. Yep, it's pinging all around where I work, where I eat, where I live. That all looks good. Instead, he gets off the stand, which you're never allowed to do. He doesn't ask the judge. He just gets off the stand. He's hard of hearing. And every question, he's like, come again?
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Say that a little louder. Sorry, little lady, can't hear you.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And so he gets off the stand and the judge is kind of like, yeah, whatever, just get off the stand. And he walks up to this like small town back roads map and he's like, anybody got a pen?
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
the court reporters like hands him like an expo you know dry erase marker and he goes all right and he starts drawing on this board as if he's drawing out a football play for his football team like quite literally with the circles and the x's and like so you started over here you just drive down this road you're gonna keep going you can see some cows and you're gonna see this fence post that's where my granddad is buried right here right here he's buried right there don't ask me why it's my fence post then we take a ride we'll see a real hard ride right here and then you see that that
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
This is real testimony. This is on the transcript, and you can't tell what's on the map at all. This is an exhibit that is entered into evidence that goes back with the jury, right?
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I mean... We can't stop him. Everyone's just looking at him. And so this goes on. Again, all we needed for him to say was, yeah, I lived where the cell phone says I'm pinging. This is not relevant for anything else. And we try to redirect him. He cannot be redirected whatsoever. This goes on. And then the defense is like, what? What? What is happening? And so he asked him to repeat something.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
You should never ask a witness like this to repeat anything. So he goes, I don't remember what I said. Let me go up to this nice lady. I think she's been writing down everything I said. And he takes a knee next to her. This little old lady who's been typing everything he's saying frantically to court reporter. And he like puts his massive football arm on this little old lady's shoulder.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
But like, no, I think that's fascinating how you hear about us. And also so much respect for me because Brett over here has a drawl. I apparently speak very quickly or maybe with a lot of spit in my mouth, depending on which one star review you're listening to. So I can't imagine that listening to our podcast as a second language is easy, but love that you guys listen.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I thought she was like, she literally fell over a little bit and she's still trying to type. And she goes, darling, what did I say?
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Do you see why Brett and I are such good friends? This is what we do. This is our real life job.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
It was just... I mean, it was terrible in the sense that this is a really long trial. We've always told you if the trial goes long, the jury's going to blame the prosecution. But like there was nothing you could do. He was actually kind of lovable, even though he was doing something really terrible. But like, oh, man, that that was who I think I think we were all cry laughing.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
We could we couldn't hold it back. You have to be professional. There was no room for professionalism that day.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
okay man and so he goes back up to the stand and it becomes very obvious like this is not gonna work and we kind of look at the fence and they're just like whatever once he went up there it was like sir can you state your name what was that again come again i'm sorry honey you're gonna have to get closer and finally the other side was like just come back down take a knee
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I don't know how they pulled off the scheme for so many years, but I don't know. That was real funny. So after that one, I was like, I got to take a knee. I got to leave practice.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I literally was like, I'm retiring if we have to do this trial again, because there's no way.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
You know, it was the whole experience. It was investigating it during COVID and the number of like, I mean, we drove to some places.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
back all over all over the state i thought we were gonna die so many times because we didn't go inside buildings so we were literally interviewing people like on the side of trailer parks like quite abandoned buildings abandoned buildings completely it was wild it was we had like fbi agents with us who were all armed so you know presumably we would survive a shootout but
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
But we were in parts of the country that I don't know that they'd be deterred by FBI agents. Let me say it that way. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Wow. Yeah. Oh, wow. Because again, I really have had like three children during this podcast. This started with baby number two, maternity leave.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
God bless Texas, y'all. Thank you. I knew that a Texas girl could count on her Texans.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I don't know. Maybe it's tis the season. It's actually the week of Halloween, but pretending it's Christmas. I just, I'm so grateful. I really am so grateful for you, Brett. I'm so grateful for all of you for giving us the opportunity to do something that was meant to be never heard by the world. And because of you, we keep doing it.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And I just cannot believe this is where our life is right now, that we've made thousands of friends around the world who truly enrich our lives, make us better lawyers, make us better people because of how you challenge us and how we look at these cases and And getting to be a part of something bigger than ourselves.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
You know, we've always said we do this because we hope it sheds light on worthy cases, on victims, on stories that need to be told. And I think that's still our aim and what we do. And I feel really lucky to get to do this and I get to do it with like my best friend too. So thank you guys so much. Thanks, Brett, for making me do this almost five years ago.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Okay. I remember this map of most Googled or whatever. I'm going to say somewhere in the south, somewhere in the SEC region. Is it going to be?
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I mean, there are a lot of chillins running around here.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I'm ready. Is this prosecutors or legal briefs? Yeah, prosecutors. Okay, perfect.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Why we're so thankful for all of you. Because the only reason we keep doing this is because y'all are so worth it. Like, you guys are just really some of the best community I could have never imagined finding this late in my life. You know? This was not on my bingo card of life. So...
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Guys, by the way, I did not cheat. I didn't look at anything.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Okay, well, if Texas is 10% of our listeners, rationally, I would think it's somewhere in Texas. And I'm going to go with Dallas-Fort Worth. Dallas is number one.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I love you guys so much, Texas. This look, I just have to say, so I drove for a field trip today for a bunch of first graders. And one of the first graders in my class, all he wanted to do was listen to college football fight songs, which is hilarious and very cute. And he kept seeing the eyes of Texas are upon you when I was like, this kid, he does not live in Texas, but the reach of Texas is far.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
It is so fun, y'all. The day after Thanksgiving, like I don't even think I've ever been to a game, but I've been to all the rallies.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I remember when Shreveport, which is not a huge town, it was like 50% of Shreveport was listening to us. And I was like, Shreveport, we love you. That was awesome. It was not the sheer number. It was the percentage per capita of Shreveport that listened to us. And I was like, way to go, Shreveport.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Oh, Texas is out now. Oh, okay, now I don't know. Now I'm like, that's got to be California, right?
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Okay, I'm not totally off base here. You got to tell me number two. I have no idea.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Okay, you know what? We got to make it. Maybe not if 2025 doesn't work out because, you know, I don't know. It's hard to travel, baby. I assume. 2026 maybe?
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
Hi, Brett. I am holly jolly. I can't believe we're doing a year wrap again. Like, where does the time go?
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
So can I say that's a really impressive list because it's all over the country world, really all over the world. But like, it's not like, oh, all the Texas cities are all California cities. That's amazing. Yeah. Again, I don't know how people find this, but I kind of love it.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
So I obviously have to remind myself what we covered this year, but in scrolling through this past year, it really was like a walk down memory lane because we obviously, especially when we do multi-part cases, which there were several this year, it really becomes part of our whole beings because we cover it for so many weeks in a row.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
If we record multiple episodes in one week, it's like all consuming to my mind. And it's a little bit wistful to look back on it because I remember the Karen Reed period of my life. It was a long period of my life. It was a frustrating period. But the one that really stood out to me this year for a lot of reasons, was the Robert Wong case. That was very early in the year, actually.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I couldn't remember if it was this year or last year. And the reason it stood out to me so much is because that is a case that is, it touches our social circles. We are one degree separated. I did not know Robert Wong. But we all, Brett and I, are kind of the same cohort and era in terms of law school graduation and people who worked at those same law firms as him.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
I was trying to be in character. But still, it boggles my mind that yet another year has come and gone, especially because when I think about the cases we've done this past year, I'm like, what did we cover? Because the years all blend together. And it's like an emotional journey to go back through all the cases we've done.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And so it feels so close to home. It felt so needless. It feels completely solvable. And we know exactly who did it, but justice hasn't been served yet. And there are still people very much hurting to this day who were very close to him, who were kind enough to speak to us and kind of humanize this whole tragedy for us. And it's one of those cases where justice is like literally within reach.
The Prosecutors
281: Our 2024 Year in Review
And I believe it will be reached. And when we cover those types of cases, I'm hopeful because I'm hopeful that our cases are not just for us to talk into a microphone, that maybe it will reach the right ears and something can happen. Doesn't have to be because of us, but by shedding light on it, that justice that I think is attainable will be attained soon.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So also at 6 o'clock, Dana Moore, Michael Moore's mother, is walking her dog when she sees Michael riding his bike. Stevie Branch was riding his bike with Michael, and Christopher was holding on to the back of the bike. Michael was wearing his Boy Scouts uniform, as we now know, the blue pants, blue shirt, and the Boy Scout cap.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And they're heading north on 14th Street toward where intersected with Goodwin, the entrance to Robin Hood Hills. Now, according to the testimony, sometime around this, while the sun is still out and the sun is still out at six o'clock during this time, Dawn Moore, Michael's sister, is out riding her bike looking for the boys.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
She was near the entrance to Robin Hood when she saw three teenagers, one white, two black, coming out of the woods. They asked her, you want a shot? And she assumed they were referring to drugs. This was confirmed by a friend with Dawn at the time, Kim Williams, who we talked about earlier.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So Dawn actually now questions the time that this happened, whether it was really six o'clock as she thought she remembered. Because according to Dawn, despite Dana Moore's statements, Dana was not at home when Michael arrived from school. And it was Dawn who told Michael he could go out and play, not his mom.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And she was near Robin Hood and she did see the teenagers, but she thinks now it was probably a bit earlier before the three of them would have been in the woods.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
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The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Hello, Brett. It's so good to be here with you. Hello, Alice. Hello, hello. I don't know about the meticulum, but we are trying to be meticulous through the timeline, which is really hard to do because, as we've seen, there are lots of competing timelines, but we do the best we can, right?
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
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The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And one really cool thing about their watch that Brett was just talking about, they even have a focus mode that can help kids focus during school hours. Really, we can't recommend Gab enough. It's the most responsible way that we have found for parents and kids to embrace technology together. Protecting your kids has never been easier. For the best deals, sign up to Gab today.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
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The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
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The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
It tastes great, but I also know that it is giving them all the things they need without the junk that they don't need. Haya is made with zero sugar and zero gummy junk, and it tastes great, which is perfect for picky eaters, especially my daughter who is just so petite and I always worry about her getting enough vitamins.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Enter Haya, because Haya fills in the most common gaps in modern children's diets to provide the full body nourishment our kids need with a yummy taste they love.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Yeah, I think the fact that there's so many sightings placing the boys closer to Robin Hood Hills, you begin to doubt kind of the two of them. And the fact that two of them remember it is less powerful because they're mother and daughter, meaning that they would kind of... be talking about it and maybe form each other's memories of it, especially if we're talking 16 years later.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And the fact that the boys did play here all the time, the three boys played together all the time, and this is one of their neighbors, this is the Hobbes' neighbor, it makes complete sense that they would often see these three boys many times. You have Jamie saying something as commonplaces, you better listen to me, it's time to get home. She's probably said that to him on many occasions.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
That's why he so flippantly says back, you can't tell me what to do. Again, a lot of familiarity there. Familiarity meaning they've probably seen each other with this exact scene play out multiple times. At 6.30, Jeff Martins sees all three boys on bikes heading towards the Robin Hood area.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So moving away from what Deborah and Jamie are saying, which is a different part of the neighborhood, now the sightings are back up to the Robin Hood area. So there's some confusion in Jeff Martins' statement because in another statement, Martin says he saw the boys at 5.30 and he also said there may have been four boys. So take it for what it is.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Why waste your time? Because we have so many episodes to go.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Now between 6.30 and 6.45, Brian Woody sees four boys with two bicycles going into Robin Hood Hills. At 6.30, Charles Ashley Jr., that's Jesse's cousin, says that he and Jesse were at his house when Connie Mulder slapped Cody Dollar. Stephanie Dollar called the police and three patrol cars responded. The time of 6.30 is confirmed by the police report.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Jesse then left the Dollars home and Charles didn't see him again that evening. Ashley told police that Jason Baldwin and Jesse Miss Kelly, quote, stayed together a lot. So we'll discuss this slapping in detail later because this is obviously going to be very important for purposes of the timeline.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
I will have to say, I feel a little bit, I'm not from Arkansas. Did you know that Mr. Alice actually lived in Arkansas? I didn't know that. So I don't know how to pronounce a lot of these places because I read about them, right? Like I read the files, I read the books, but I actually don't know how to pronounce a lot of the Arkansan names. And so I feel very self-conscious here.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Sometime between 3.30 and 6.30, Susie Brewer tells the police that she was with Jesse Miskelley at Stephanie Dollars from 3.30 to 7.10 or 7.20 when Jesse said he was going to Dyess to wrestle. Now Susie's timeline is probably off. because most everyone agrees that the cops showed up well before this time, 7.10, 7.20. And in fact, the police report confirms that it's sometime before seven o'clock.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
While Susie has always said that Jesse left Stephanie's after seven, that's a little bit too late based on the other corroborating testimony we have. The police officer on the scene reported that he knows Jesse and he would recognize him, but despite knowing who Jesse is, He did not see Jesse on the scene. So Stephanie reported that she did see him standing next to the police car at 630.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Stephanie said she spoke with Jesse and he told her he was going to Diaz to wrestle. So we'll talk about Diaz in detail later, but you can see how. It appears that there was a slapping event. Not appears. There was an event where the police were called. We know for a fact that the police were called to the Dollar's home. We know that the police have a police report stating it's 6.30.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
That all seems to be pretty clear. Sure, maybe there was a typo. Maybe they got the time off by a little bit. But we know that there was a police event. We also know likely that Jesse was at the home at some point that day.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
The big question that is not answered by the police report or by the testimony necessarily because there's contradictory information is whether by the time the police showed up,
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
at 6 30 whether jesse was still there this is obviously going to be important because the 6 30 hour or so we have a lot of sightings of the boys going into robin hood hills probably never to come back out again so the fact that the police do know who jesse miss kelly is and you know this is a small town they get called on these boys all the time they know who he is
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
The fact that they wouldn't remember seeing him is pretty significant because he's not just some random guy that they've never seen before. It wasn't so chaotic. You would think that the police, if they know Jesse, would remember Jesse standing by their car or even talking to them as some of the testimony claims happened. But if they don't remember, it doesn't mean he wasn't there.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
But it's a lot harder to understand whether he was still there by 630.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
I don't know that they're Arkansans, to be totally honest.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
That is a good riddle. I don't know. I don't know what to tell you.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Someone said Mr. Alice needs to be a guest. Nobody can fit in this closet, you guys, because I am currently in a hobbit closet.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And this isn't necessarily a deal breaker, but note again how interesting it is. It's not impossible and it doesn't necessarily change his alibi, whether his dad is there or not. But in this telling of what's happening, the whole family is together. But presumably his dad had just moved out after a massive breakup fight the night before.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So again, whether his dad is there or not doesn't necessarily impact whether Damien is there. But that's just an interesting kind of tidbit to whether this is really as it happened and whether this is the same day as well.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
All I have to say is maybe our trolls have a point when they say that we're not a big deal. Indeed, we are not. We try to stay as humble as possible.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So we're moving into the timeline. It's getting a little later. Seven o'clock, Garrett Schwarting, he's a ninth grader, will tell police that he went to Jason's at 7, 730 and 8 to get a shirt. Three different times. He's not misremembering times. And this is a shirt that Jason had borrowed from him. Jason was there all three times.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And the third time, Garrett stays and they play Street Fighter 2 on the Super Nintendo until 9 o'clock.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
This really is like going back to childhood. It's the 90s, man. This day is pure 90s. It is pure 90s. Now, Garrett's story here is highly questionable. Obviously, you understand the importance of this if this is correct. He's basically putting Jason at Jason's home throughout the entire time where this murder likely happened, from 7 all the way until 9. He's stopping in 7, 7.30, 8.00.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
That's not enough time in each of those iterations for Jason to leave and commit this murder, right? And then he's staying there playing Street Fighter II all the way until nine o'clock. And like Brett said, being incredibly conservative, the murders would have been completed by nine.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Now, the reason his story is highly questionable is when he was initially questioned by the police, he actually said he didn't remember seeing Jason at all that night. Then after talking to Jason's brother several times, all of a sudden Garrett now recalls that he was at Jason's house during all those times all the way until 9 p.m.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Garrett later will tell police he was not good with dates and he would eventually recant his statement completely saying that the events he described actually occurred on Thursday, not the day in question. Again, you can see how whether nefarious or not, He probably did go over to Jason's house at some point to get a shirt that had been borrowed.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
He probably did play Street Fighter 2 on multiple occasions even with Jason. So what we have to go back to is the closest in time to the murders that he was questioned. His first memory was, I didn't see Jason that day. And later it's changed after speaking with someone who...
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And this also sounds like people who don't know who we are, that I stick all my babies in closets instead of rooms. And I'm not going to disabuse you of that notion. So with that, let's dive right into the timeline.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
has an interest in jason probably having a story or an alibi here so take his statement for whatever it is except that he does recant it and now he says these events just didn't happen on the day in question now many years later john mark byers will claim to have seen terry hobbs outside of robin hood hills yelling for his son at
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
seven o'clock this is obviously significant because we have the boys going into the woods at seven o'clock and now we have one of the fathers saying the stepfather of Stevie is yelling for the boys he didn't say this at the time though it's hard for me to express how little I believe this whatever the truth is of this case John Mark Byers if you've seen Paradise Lost you've seen what he's like you've seen how dramatic he is
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
The first thing you would say, right, is to go to the father of another boy that your son is hanging out with and be like, You last saw them at seven o'clock or you would tell police that before the boys were found to say, well, I saw the stepfather standing right there yelling for them. They got to be in there. He was the last one to see him. Go talk to him. None of that happened at the time.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And so, yeah, this is a very suspect memory because it certainly wasn't stated at the time. Now, 730 John Mark Byers, who has been doing loops around the neighborhood looking for his son, sees a police officer at a dollar store and tells him that he can't find his son. The officer tells John Mark Byers to give it a little bit of time, give it till eight o'clock and see if the boy turns up.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
If he doesn't, the police say at that point, why don't you call it in? We'll do something about it then. Melissa Byers and Ryan, her other son, are looking around the neighborhood for Chris. Alternatively, they were with John Mark Byers in the vehicle.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And the reason we don't know if they're separated looking for them or together in the same car looking is because these stories are unclear and murky about when they were in the car together and when they weren't, as well as when they were together and when they split up. It's as clear as mud. I mean, that really is what it is.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
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The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
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The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
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The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
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The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
That's why Homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in-depth information they need to find the right home.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
I will say, and This comes up when we interview people too. When we say sunset, we always have to like pin down. Just in kind of the interviews I've done with people, I would say that most people don't recognize when the sun actually begins to set because it's still incredibly bright.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
When people think of like the sun setting into the horizon, it's usually halfway through this blue hour that we're talking about when we try to pin them down. Because typically people will say, oh, it was completely dark at the time. If it's when it's completely dark or they're noting sunset to be sometime after the sun has begun to set.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
But when you look at, say, your weather app and it says sunset at seven forty nine, that's when the sun begins to descend. Not but you may not even be able to tell the difference between pre sunset and as it's setting. And this is really, really important, obviously, because. especially in the summertime, not quite summer, but late spring, soon to be summertime, the sun is out longer as well.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And so if you get this off even by a couple of weeks, the daylight hour shifts pretty quickly around this time.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
especially in this particular neighborhood where there are lots of kids out. And there's every reason to believe based on kind of these sightings that the three of them, obviously they were together at some point, may have changed iterations of who was together with whom at what point in time. And it's a very tight timeline.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Without changing clothes. I was going to say without mud or water or blood on him.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So it's very possible that these people all saw some variation of these boys together with potentially other kids in the neighborhood. But if you're off by even 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes,
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Yeah, one thing I'll just end with here, I know we're only three episodes in so far, but this is obviously a very famous case, a case that documentaries are made of, that books are written about, that you probably, even if you don't know a lot about the facts of the case, you've heard West Memphis Three.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
But as we break down this timeline, something that is becoming so apparent to me that doesn't necessarily come through in documentaries or other coverage is... How this night was like any other night. There was absolutely nothing special about this night. It was a regular school day. Boys who like to play together. They didn't even really plan to play together, right?
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
They just always played together. They find each other, whether they're riding their skateboard or hopping on someone's bike. This is not some planned play date. I think we live in a very scheduled world right now where we know we're going to have a play date for our kids in X number of days. This is not one of those things. This was a spontaneous... commonplace afternoon going into the evening.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
It completely messes up the timeline as we are looking at it, which if you are recalling any sort of time in the last even 24 hours, I can easily be off by much more than 30 minutes in just about everything, especially something as nonchalant as seeing some kids run around in the neighborhood as they do every day.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And the timeline is so incredibly tight. And there are so many people who see this going on, whether it's this day or another day, because this is the type of night it is. Everyone's out and about. There are no cell phones. People are not on Twitter. They're not stuck in front of their computers.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
If they're in front of the TV, they're watching something that the rest of the country is watching, like Melrose Place or 90210. This is a very community-oriented time.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
type of night which is in some ways so much more devastating to me because there were lots of eyes on these boys intentionally or not this is kind of those soft touches right lots of neighbors are able to see your boys they're all together nothing bad could happen and obviously we know the worst possible thing is about to happen and we're not talking about you know this day and age when everyone's holed up inside and no one knows their neighbors everyone knows each other they know their names or at least they've seen each other and yet this still happens
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
And it's just a highlight on how quickly tragedy can strike and you truly have absolutely no forewarning.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
No, no. We are now in the age where it's much more predictable because those of you who've been with us before West Memphis 3 know how unpredictable my recording was. Hence the need for sleep training.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Absolutely. I mean, there's and I'm sorry, because I don't actually know what software developers do, except I know that it's important. And I know that I can't do it is almost all of the best IT folks I have worked with in different legal jobs, including as a prosecutor.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
They are trained in software development and on their own free time, because unfortunately, governments, as you can imagine, are sometimes very old fashioned, slow to change, but they develop things that help us, for example, be able to analyze a cell phone dump much easier. That's a massive amount of information.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
It's not quite AI because we're not looking for some formula, but to be able to look through massive amounts of information in an orderly way and then to turn that massive information dump into something that can be a story to convey to the jury is all wrapped up within kind of software development.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
and how you use technology to sift through massive amounts of information, because these cases, as you can tell from just this timeline, is so much information, so many tips come through, but how do you possibly give the pieces of information due time that need it? So whether that's volunteering your services for like a nonprofit, for like missing people,
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Looking for missing people, that's a great way. They are strapped for cash. And if you're able to kind of get started in that way, I can't imagine what amazing work you can do in helping them just sort through something as simple as all of the tips coming through or how to order the way you look at things.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
The way information is dumped into investigations these days, it's great to have access to more information, but truly it means things can get buried as we saw in the Delphi case, right?
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
That wasn't because of a technology dump so much as so many tips coming in that kind of the key tip for the ultimate conviction was buried for several years because there just was too much information to sift through. So that's kind of a... I think every nonprofit could use your services. A lot of governments and prosecutors offices could probably too, but they're slower to move to change.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
You know, I always go back to develop it and then you can start selling it to other, you know, they do have budgets.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
If you can't tell. You didn't notice. There's only so many more closets left, y'all. Yeah, we're such a tiny little man.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
I can hear out of both, but when I replay back, it only plays out of one, and I don't know why.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
bit it seems pretty clear this is a legitimate sighting and again a backpack is one of those things where maybe they remember seeing the boys with backpacks in the past and it just wasn't this time so you're trying to put together all these memories but i think you're right whether there are backpacks or not that may be questionable but the sighting because sheila bailey also independently confirms the sighting probably happened
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So a theme in this very convoluted slash kind of piece together feels like a patchwork quilt of a timeline because we're getting all these firsthand account witnesses is obviously we know there's going to be a gruesome murder of these three young boys. It's actually incredible that right before that happens, so many people see them. I mean...
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Everyone from, you know, teenagers to fellow classmates to next door neighbors to adults. I mean, it feels like this is one of those like leave it to beaver type of shows where you're seeing an aerial view of this like neighborhood and everyone is just passing them. And we know that this timeline is going to be incredibly tight. But what really sticks out to me about this patchwork timeline is.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
While they may not all be perfectly in line with what actually happened, what we know is a lot of people saw these boys. They were not kind of hiding away for hours on end and no one had seen them. They were going in and out. They were playing and they were being seen. They weren't hiding from anyone. And this just is devastating on so many levels.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So we're to the 6 o'clock hour, kind of like the 5 o'clock hour. There's going to be a lot of sightings that overlap each other. And the times can't all fit neatly because people misremember times. So at 6 o'clock, Jason Goebel sees two boys riding their bikes. Now, according to the three... Jason, Damien, and Dominique at 6 o'clock are being picked up at the laundromat by Damien's father.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Damien walks home and Damien's father drives the other two, that being Jason and Dominique, home because they live, remember, in the same trailer park. The timing here is actually inconsistent with what Jason's uncle says, who said that Jason did not leave his house until 6.30 p.m.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
It's also inconsistent with Damien's family story, which was that Damien and Domini were picked up at the laundromat, although it was closer to 3.30 or 4, so two to two and a half hours earlier than what they later say happened. And it's also inconsistent with the relationship with Eddie Joe Hutchinson, who moved out of the family home the day before.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
Remember when we had talked about, I think on episode one, that if there were to be a Damien is the one who killed these boys with others. We know that the day before these murders, his mom and dad, who had been together, divorced, gotten back together, broken up on multiple occasions, they had another massive fight the night before these murders. And it wasn't just a blow up.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
It was so serious that Damien's father had actually moved his belongings out of the house. So if you've had such a big blow up, it's very interesting that Eddie now can say, oh, Damien was home at a certain time when he himself had moved out of the home.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So you can see that even though their official story, the three of them's official story is at six o'clock, they're being picked up at the laundromat. Their own other stories are inconsistent with this timeline.
The Prosecutors
301. West Memphis 3 Part 3
So I think it's fair to say that very likely the three of them are not being picked up at the laundromat at six o'clock because it's inconsistent with every other telling of their own stories as well.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Not typical places where you will drum up a lot of enemies. And together they enjoyed being active members of the Oconee Community Church and also spending time with their children and nine grandchildren. They really were family people.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
But in May of 2014, this idyllic life came to a halt when Russell and Shirley failed to show up to a neighborhood party for the 140th running of the Kentucky Derby. Days later, this was just not like them to say they'd come to a party and not show up.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Their concerned friends went to check on the couple and they discovered that this loved couple had been the unlikely victims of an incredibly gruesome crime.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I'm not going to lie. I was kind of waiting for something even more exciting, like you won $5 million, and now you own all the golf tees in the world.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
But you'd have to spend it at the club, you know? You can only buy so many golf tees.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Are you putting yourself at the scene of the crime?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
We forget how to talk to each other.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Because other than recording, apparently I never speak to my best friend, Brett.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So that's Saturday and we know that the Dermons don't make it to this Kentucky Derby party. Now fast forward to Monday, May 6th, 2014. So we know that Dermons failed to show up to this party and the neighbors were starting to get a little worried. They tried calling the Dermons several times over the next couple of days to check in on them.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I think this also shows not only do people take these parties seriously, But the Dermans are very involved in their communities, even though they've been retired for two decades, essentially, and they've lived here for 14 years. They're not recluses. They are quite part of the fabric of the community, so much so that they have lots of friends checking in on them.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
We text, but that's not the same. You know, texting does not take place of how fun it is to garner all those one-star reviews for all our bantering. Y'all know what? I haven't talked to adults in so long, I will banter all the heck I want with you.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
We talk about this all the time where... I've said before, I hope if I ever disappear, that someone notices, you know, before a week or two or three pass by. And that's exactly what's happening. Pretty much as soon as they fail to show up to this party, people are worried and they're trying to check in on them.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And when they have not heard back from either of them, on Monday, May 6th, a couple of the neighbors decide to stop by the Dermons' home just to make sure everything's okay. And when the neighbors stop by, they notice that there's two days worth of newspapers that are still sitting on the driveway, which is unusual for the Dermons if they are at home.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Now, this is kind of the first sign that gets them kind of concerned. So they don't just leave. Instead, like the good friends they are, they approach the house and they start knocking on the door and they knock several times, but no one answers. And so they walk to the back of the Dermons' home, and the back of the home faces the lake.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
This is just kind of one of the pictures of lake houses, front, back. You can go in on both sides, right? And what they find on the back door is that it's unlocked. And so the neighbors, they let themselves in. And when they do, they call for Shirley and Russell, but they get no response. Still, they are very concerned now.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
They start walking through every room of the house, but nothing appears out of place. Then they make it to the garage, and that's when they're met with a shocking sight. Because behind the couple's cars was Russell's decapitated body. He was found in his bathrobe with slippers nearby, laying on his back in a pool of blood which had begun to dry around him.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And towels had been shoved around his body to prevent the blood from seeping under the garage door and down the driveway. Those of you who may follow true crime, you know that unfortunately the body does have a lot of blood that can seep out. And this is a very interesting fact that there's the added step after decapitation of putting towels around Russell's body to further evade detection.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And one of the most puzzling things perhaps, besides why anyone would target and kill Russell in such a gruesome way, was that his head was nowhere to be found. And neither was Shirley, not just her head, but her entire body. All they found was the body of Russell laying in his own drying pool of blood in the garage.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And a few things, since we're talking about the back door, if you know someone, typically you may feel more comfortable going through not the main door. So if you just have say the UPS person or the delivery person, or maybe someone who's going door to door asking if they can wash your windows for you, or they're trying to sell you some goods, where do they go? They typically go to the front door.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I do have to say, so I have had a lot of time to scroll on my phone because I get nap-trapped all the time, which is fantastic in this stage of newborn-ness. But my favorite, and there's been a couple one-star reviews in the last month, and my favorites are like, fantastic research, great expertise, good stories, good insights. Three stars. Don't like three minutes of ads.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
They probably ring the doorbell or something like that. And another thing to note about this back door, they didn't find that it was forced open. It was unlocked. Now, one of several things could have happened, but one of two major things could have happened. The door was opened willingly by the Dermons from the inside. Why would they open it to someone? Maybe they knew them.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Maybe this person was unthreatening. Or the person who was coming in had access somehow to the door. Or they typically leave their doors unlocked and someone knew that this door was unlocked. Because I'll say this, we have a lot of points of entry into our home in the house that I live in now. This is, you know, don't come rob me.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And there are certain doors that are always bolted because we never use those doors. We never walk through them. They probably are painted shut. And there are doors that we use all the time that more often than not will probably be unlocked.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
If you see a photo of the Dermons home, it's not a small home, especially when you're talking about front and back entrances and we're talking about potential access from the lake through a dock. having some knowledge of where to go in this house would be helpful, right? It's not completely straightforward.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
It's not a shotgun home where there's just a front door and a back door and boom, that's it, right? And so you're beginning to see some sort of picture form in terms of either familiarity with how this gated community works, how surveillance works, how to access the home, how to gain access to this home without force.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And along the lines of dexterity, time. If in fact, you're going to go the added step, you don't need to decapitate someone to kill them. Especially if we find out later that the decapitation happens post-mortem. So that's just extra. Most people who are trying to commit a crime, whether it be a murder or a robbery or anything else, try to get in and out.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So once the deed is done, once Russell's dead, there's no need to stick around and do this added level of just torture, really. I mean, he's dead, but it is just absolutely, I mean, it's demoralizing for his loved ones, not just to find him brutally murdered, but then to have like, you know, this disrespect of his head being removed. And then the added time,
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
and forethought to put towels around him to further evade detection so this person has dexterity this person also is not worried about being caught otherwise he would have hightailed it out of there and not taken the extra step of cutting the head Bringing something to put the head in. If you think that's a lot of blood around him, there's going to be a lot of blood on the head.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And I'm like, you are unpleasable, sir.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Maybe he walked out just holding a head, but probably he thought enough about it to bring something to put the head in. That doesn't sound like a heat of the moment matter. It sounds like very calculated, very cold, very planned, and also huge question mark. Why take Russell's head?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Also, the talk, it's the journey, not the destination, y'all.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And also to know they don't see things like bloody or muddy footprints. We know that the person who is standing over an already dead Russell likely is getting blood on them as they are decapitating Russell. That's why there's towels to keep back the blood. Yet there's not a tracking of the blood across the house, which could mean that they didn't go back through the house.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
They may have because there's only really one point of entry that we know of here, which again points to planning how to be able to evade that detection. Maybe taking off your shoes is enough. Maybe not. This is a lot of blood we're talking about. So they came prepared to carry this out in a way that wouldn't make it look immediately suspect once you look in the windows of the back door.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Look, I'm not going to remember what I said in about an hour. So like it just is what it is. I'm going to say whatever I want. But the thing about this case, other than the fact that we spoke with the amazing Cheryl McCollum on this case, literally right before I went to the hospital to have a baby. She was like one of the last recordings we did is the fact that Brett and I went to Lake Oconee.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Yeah. And kind of along the lines of being able to leave your doors open. Not only is this a gated community, the properties are pretty large. So this is not an urban area where someone downtown can just stumble into the alley and come into your home. Really kind of the only way is through that gate or the lake. And most people aren't just like swimming in this 370 some odd mile shoreline lake.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
It's so large that you need a boat to access it. And people are typically not just boating around trying people's back doors because boats are loud. You need to have access to a boat, which is kind of expensive. And they're...
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
They're very you can see that very easily on the lake, especially when we're talking about a cul-de-sac situation where if you see someone's boat, you notice when a boat doesn't belong in your cul-de-sac because people know whose boats are whose and any community members who come. They usually don't go into the kind of these quieter coves.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
You're going out into the open water, you're going fishing or something like that. There's nothing to do here. It's not for sightseeing purposes. This is really for view purposes. Their lakefront property is for viewing.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And along the lines of that boat thing, very bold if this person uses a boat. Because what do you have to do with a boat when you park it? You leave it on the open water for all to see for the amount of time it's going to take to commit this murder. That is, I mean, talk about a sitting duck. We talked about just several docks on this cul-de-sac area.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I didn't know about this case when we went there. We were there for a conference, for like a meeting. And after the fact, it's a beautiful location. So it kind of brings like a level of visceralness for me because I can picture just how beautiful this part of the country is.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And so all you need is someone to look out the window and say, huh. What boat's over at the Dermans dock? They don't have a boat. None of their kids are visiting. I've never seen that boat before. That's noteworthy.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And even if you can kill someone, decapitate them, put towels around them and hightail it out of there with a head quickly, that's still some amount of time that boat is sitting out in the open water for all to see because there's not like some garage you can pull the boat into. Not here with these open docks.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or condo. It's about the home. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location and neighborhood. If you have kids, it's also schools, nearby parks, and transportation options.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
That's why Homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in-depth information they need to find the right home.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So several days go by and on May 10th, 2014, the Reynolds plantation community holds a candlelight vigil for the Dermons and at least a hundred people show up. This is a close-knit community. The Dermons were involved. They're well liked in this community and there's still no sign of Shirley, but everyone's kind of fearing the worst because of what's happened to Russell.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Absolutely. And then almost a week passes by on May 16, 2014. This is 10 days after Russell's body was discovered. Two men were out fishing in the lake. They were about six miles from the Dermons' home. And when they were out fishing, this is, by the way, convinced me that I never want to go fishing. They locate... a woman's body, and it's floating face down.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Walking on the side of the road. Yeah, exactly. I'd never want to stumble on something like this. Yeah, found a finger, exactly. And what they see is just something straight out of a horror movie. This woman clearly dead and dead for some time. Her ankles were tethered down with two 30 pound cinder blocks and This is, I mean, it's just so dark.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
We talked a lot to that raptor expert, didn't we?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
This is seems like out of some sort of very sophisticated hit or drug cartel, right? Not only is she dead, but she's floated up because previously likely the reason she wasn't located for 10 days is that she had been weighted down to evade detection. By the way, 230 pound cinder blocks, not light.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Talking about that person who needed to carry out the decapitation needing to be dexterous, same here. Carrying a woman's body that's probably at this point limp, not easy. Then 60 pounds of weights to be able to finagle them onto her ankles to be able to drop her overboard. So much to talk about here, but all to say is this is a feat of strength. It is not an accident. Clearly well thought out.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Also, this is not, I think they were hoping or thought that perhaps this woman's body would never be discovered because this location was at least a 15 minute boat ride from the Derman's house. Why this is noteworthy? Person didn't swim out there. Shirley didn't go for a swim, get tangled in some cinder blocks, and drown. This person didn't rowboat out there.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
They used a boat with a motor, and they went all the way out here, really to be far away from anything, in order to dump her body. Now, we've been talking about this body that was found. Yes, it was confirmed to be Shirley Derman, and... When they found her, she was fully clothed and her body was bloated to nearly twice its normal size.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
This led investigators to believe that she'd actually been in the water for quite some time because the body takes in water after it is dead. And that's why she's so bloated. Now, Shirley's body was not discovered during that initial search that we talked about. You know, the police did a pretty thorough search, but this is a large lake.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And the reason she wasn't found was likely because she was weighted down. And this lake is deep. Where she was found, it went down nearly 50 feet underwater, where her body likely stayed for many days before it eventually rose to the surface and was found by those men fishing.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Now in the days that followed, the lake was then again searched extensively for Russell's head, makes sense because now we know the lake is a crime scene. And they also looked in the lake for a murder weapon, but despite exhaustive efforts, other than Shirley's body, they couldn't find anything else related to the Dermons or the crime in the lake.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Not only specific ways, but specific to each of the Dermons. There's a lot of creativity involved and a lot of planning. Why not carry out the same type of murder for both of them? If whatever you're trying to accomplish by decapitating Russell, maybe... You're trying to hide other evidence that we'll talk about later. Maybe it's to send a signal to someone.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Why not just kill them both at the house and then all you have to take away are two heads rather than a head and an entire body plus cinder blocks? Or why not take both their bodies, tie cinder blocks to both of them and dump them overboard? Oftentimes you'll see with multiple victim crimes, the same thing will happen to both of the victims. Each of them have kind of a very unique identity.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
type of disposing of the body, not just manner of death, but the way that they're disposed. And it's not necessarily to completely cover up the crime. Maybe the intention was to completely cover up Shirley's crime. Maybe. Maybe they thought she'd sink to the bottom. They'll never find her. But clearly it wasn't to evade detection that something happened to Shirley because Russell was there.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Clearly he was murdered, right? And the first thing that people thought was not that Shirley did it because he was decapitated. Now, maybe if he was just shot, they could think maybe Shirley lost it and she shot him. No, they had to carry out the Russell part of the crime in a way that would completely eliminate his wife as the suspect.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So if what they were trying to do is make it look like Shirley ran away to start a new life with, you know, all of her now newfound money because her husband is dead by her own hand. No, that was never going to be the plot because of the way they murdered Russell. So if what they were trying to do was to evade detection about Shirley's murder, Why not also get rid of Russell?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And then it's this great mystery. These two well-loved people in the community just up and left. We don't know what happened to them. Instead, they leave so much evidence that something terrible happened to both of them. So this is just, I mean, it kind of cuts against all you would think a perpetrator would do, whether for evasion purposes, whether to send messages, the time they have.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
You're beginning to see why this case is so mind boggling and why it's still unsolved to this day.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Yes, let's definitely answer a question.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I didn't want anyone to get bored with all my chit-chat about my family before we started, but you got your true crime in. Those of you who are listening now, we are... Gosh... The babe is like a month old now. That was a whirlwind. But we are all good now.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So when we had the baby, we kind of had an unexpected stay in the NICU, which those of you who've been listening to us for a while know that Brett also had a NICU baby. And this is my fourth baby now. And we've never had a NICU experience before now. And I Truly have to say, it was unlike anything I'd ever experienced. And every NICU parent out there, my heart goes out to you because...
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
It is not like any other experience. I will never see someone post a picture of their baby in like the whole swaddle cloth from the hospital the same again, because all I can think is like, wow, what a privilege. You get to hold your baby after you've had your baby, which is not something we got to do for quite some time in the NICU.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
The doctors and the nurses were literal godsends and they were so amazing to us. They saw me ugly cry a lot, a lot. And they did everything they could to make sure we knew what was going on, which was incredible because I know I must not be the best patient because I think I know so much. I know nothing about the medical field. But little man is healthy and he got discharged from the NICU.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So we've been home for a few weeks now and he's awesome. I mean, all of you who have kids, it doesn't matter if you have one or a dozen kids. I think a dozen kids might actually be its own league. But I try to tell this to everyone. It doesn't matter how many kids you have. They will take up 150 percent of your time. One kid will take up 150 percent of your time.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Four kids will take up 150 percent of your time. But it's been a time of joyful chaos. Like we just, we have a lot of fun, lot of laughter every day. So we don't cry because it's so crazy in my house, Brett. Well, we've been trying to record for like a couple of weeks now. And I'm like, OK, people are sleeping. Never mind. Everyone's awake. We can't record.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So anyway, those of you who don't want to hear any baby updates, you can fast forward all of this. But so many of you wrote me the kindest messages of just love and support that I have not had a chance to respond to. I read every single message you sent on Instagram, on Twitter, Twitter. on Facebook, on Patreon.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I've read them all because I've had a lot of time either sitting in the NICU or just, you know, up all night with a newborn. And I just... We're not just a true crime community. You guys have become like a family to us. And so... Thank you for those messages. And all of them were taken to heart, even if I haven't responded individually, because it is hard to text with just one hand.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So that's partly why it's harder to respond. But thank you guys. And thank you guys for all listening. I think you guys, our listeners, found out I was having a baby before a lot of my actual in-person friends. This is the way it should be.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Like, what do I believe in in the world? Like, do I believe the aliens exist? That sort of thing?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Just because people think I'm in a cult?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I'll answer it. Sure. If this person is asking what we think they're asking, because what if they're like, what if she posts on Reddit? If she's like, guys, I just wanted to know, like, if you like cheese or not, geez.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Do you want to go? You have a pretty, you have a, yours ties into a lot of where you're from, which I really like. And I'll give my real answer to people. We're going to get real deep because I told you, I'm not going to remember anything I said like in an hour because I'm so tired.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
What specificity? What pew are you in?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Are you trying to create a fire right now?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Can I tell a really quick story about the Nicene Creed since you brought up the Nicene Creed? So this is going to show where we diverge. When you get into specificity, Brett and Alice are pretty different. So I'm Catholic, but I'm a convert. And it was a very dramatic conversion, which we can find me at the next CrimeCon. And I'll tell you why I converted. And I love the Catholic faith.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
But about the Nicene Creed, we live in the deep south, the Bible Belt, where Brett's flavor of the faith is much more socially acceptable than mine, shall we say? Yeah. We love Catholics. I don't know about that. Let's just say people say when we moved in, they're like, well, what church are you going to, sweetheart? And I said, oh, the Catholic Church. And they said, oh, dear.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
That's fair. So so we had a friend. This is like soon after we moved here and they live here. I don't know what their faith is. I didn't ask that very specific question. And they came over and they brought us dinner. It was like a play date and they brought dinner, which is very nice. And my kids and I was like, everyone prays before dinner in the South, like whatever stripe of faith you are.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So it's not weird to pray. Say, OK, kids, let's say a little blessing. Like most of our kids at our schools, like at the little daycares, I'll say a little like God is good. God is great sort of blessing. Right. So it's like pretty unobjectionable to say a blessing before a meal. So the kids are like about to dig into their tacos. And my son says, we should pray for our food.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And I was like, oh, yeah, let's pray for our food. That's what we do here. And then he's like, this is my oldest. He's like four, three. No, no, he's three. He can barely speak at this point. And he's never done this before. I don't know why he did it tonight. Most of the time we say like, thank you, God, for our food. Amen. That's what we say at dinner. Right. So this is not this.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
You know, that's that's our normal dinner prayer. He starts and he goes through the entire Nicene Creed. I didn't know he knew the Nicene Creed. Right.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
He literally started with, I believe in God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and goes through the entire freaking Nicene Creed. And it takes like, you know, about a minute or two, especially when you're three and stumbling over the words. And everyone around the table is like bursting out laughing. We don't know each other that well. They think I'm raising a cult child.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And he takes it seriously. And he's like, amen. Amen.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Dive right in. Let's get on it.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
You know, saying the Our Father would have been a whole lot more appropriate at dinner than the Nicene Creed. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Much shorter. So that friend, we stayed friends, but man, she was like, when I first met you, I was like, you are weird, girl.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Well, that was a fun question.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
No, this has been such a joy. I've really missed you guys. Thanks for letting me take a break, too. But we're back, baby.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I guess I normally say record. That's okay.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Yeah. Baby's asleep so far. That's good. He's also being held, so he should stay asleep. So we're good. Well, that's good. I'm trying to turn up the volume so I can hear you better. I just can't hear your voice.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
No, I turned it down because I still record. I've been recording scripts. They're so loud on the playbacks.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Well, just because, like, I had it on really loud when I talked to you, I guess. Anyways, all to say is, we're back, baby!
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I miss you guys. That's when you say, I miss you too.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And if you're watching this on YouTube and you see their pictures, I mean, they literally look like the picture perfect grandma and grandpa that you would find as the placeholder in a picture frame when you go to the store. They truly look like people who lit up a room and you'll hear more about them.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
How the fact that they would even be targeted if they were targeted is just mind boggling for all those who knew them.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Hardee's everywhere? I'm not sure. So Hardee's, I think, I could be wrong, because Texans think that everything starts in Texas, but Hardee's is like really big in Texas, and they have the square burgers, you know, instead of like a circle.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
No, Hardee's also has it.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Now I have to look it up. I don't know.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Well, I think now they all do, right?
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Here's like a side, you know, personal note that people are going to give us negative one star for. After Mr. Alice and Mai's—Mai's? Sure. Why not? We're flowing with it. After— Our rehearsal dinner, we didn't have time to eat during our rehearsal dinner because we were having the time of our lives. It was like the second best party ever, wedding being the best party ever. We were starving.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And so the night before our wedding, we're getting married in like seven hours. What did we do? We went and ate Hardee's. And we ate it like in the parking lot. And it was amazing. So I love Hardee's.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I'm really sleep deprived. I'll say this about Hardee's.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Brett, it's so good to be back. You may not have noticed because, you know, other people have lives and we've recorded a lot of episodes ahead of time, but I had a baby like a month ago. And so I haven't really talked to Brett in about a month. I haven't talked to anybody in about a month. And it's so good to be back. You guys may hear some adorable baby noises in the background. I don't know.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And upon retirement, they had a pretty quiet life. You know, they were retired for about six years until 2000 when Russell and Shirley made the decision to leave their home state of New Jersey and move down to the Atlanta area. In fact, to peaceful Putnam County, Georgia. And to do so, they bought a large home in Great Waters, which is a wealthy gated neighborhood in Lake Oconee.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Now, Lake Oconee, if you're not familiar with it, is the second largest lake in Georgia. It has 376 miles of shoreline and a coverage of 20,000 acres. So this isn't like some small little lake. This is really quite large and it's absolutely beautiful. Even though it's quite expensive to live right on Lake Oconee, it also has this very pastoral feel. It's not in the middle of the city.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
It is not urban whatsoever. It's a very, very quiet, idyllic type of life. This lake itself has seven boat ramps allowing public access to the lake, two of which are nearby in Eatonton, Georgia. And for those of you who may not be familiar with lakes or how they work in the United States, a lot of people who live on the lake will have their own personal docks. That's where you will use your boat.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
You keep your boat there and your dock. You're the only one who parks there. And it usually has a walkway up to your house. But a lot of people may not want to live right on the lake or can't afford to live on the lake, but they still have a boat and they'd like to go fishing, go boating for the day.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And in order to do that, they're not just going to use someone's boat ramp because that's their private property. Instead, they have to go to these community outlets. So one of these like literal just like a ramp into the water where you can back up your boat into the water and access the lake as someone who doesn't live there all the time.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So that's important here because there are people who live on the lake, but it's also open to the public in terms of kind of just leisure.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
A lot of deliciousness there.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
I've been to the Chick-fil-A campus in Atlanta, which you can, you have to sign up to go to. It's a certified botanical garden. If you haven't been there, you have to let it, yeah, it's, it's beautiful. Like you drive in, it's like the Cathy's, the original Cathy made it a botanical garden. So you drive like three or four miles in before you ever get to a building.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
And it's just like winding, beautiful forest.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
are no chickens it's still very urban but all to say is it's it's beautiful there and i think it's open to the public you just have to like get cleared by security and sign up online anyways chick-fil-a is not sponsoring this but they should because we eat a lot of chick-fil-a or some hardies right now i mean i'm pretty hungry tomorrow morning yeah
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
We'll see. We'll see what happens tonight.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
Okay, so all to say is this is a pretty wealthy part of the state. And now specifically with Shirley and Russell, their home came with a private dock that went straight to Lake Oconee, even though they didn't have a boat. You might think that's kind of strange, but honestly, they're like in their 80s. Boating takes a lot of effort. You have to maintain your boat. Keeping up a boat, too.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
All the things. I think they're there to live on the lake, to have the beautiful views. You know, there's lots of things you can do on the lake, not necessarily have a boat. So it's not too surprising to me that at their age, in retirement, they don't have a boat. But this is going to be noteworthy for the kind of tragedy that's about to happen.
The Prosecutors
287. The Lake Oconee Murders Part 1 of 2 -- Possum Kingdom
So this was really the perfect place for this couple to live out their golden years together. And for 14 years, that's exactly what they did. Russell enjoyed golfing, reading, and walking in his retirement while Shirley spent her time doing crossword puzzles, gardening, and playing bridge. Really all things, as you can probably imagine, sound almost boring, right?
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Hey, Brett, way to go. Anyone who hasn't been listening to us chit chat for the last 10 minutes, which you haven't, if we have a great editor who we do. Yep. But I was telling a cute story about my son's gang of boys and they call themselves Savage. And how cute. And this is relevant because he's the same age as our sweet boys who were the victims in this case.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
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The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
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The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
That's P-R-O-L-O-N-L-I-F-E dot com slash prosecutors to claim your 15% discount and your bonus gift. Prolonglife.com slash prosecutors. Guys, I know this isn't new information, but the youth mental health crisis is all over the news and we know social media is driving it. This just shocks me that teens spend an average of nine hours a day on screens outside of school.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
That's basically a full-time job just scrolling mindlessly. I can imagine teens are doing this because I, as an adult with self-control, do that myself. But here's the good news. A company called Gab has solved the problem by doing something no one else is doing. Their approach is Tech in Steps. Tech in Steps works by providing a kid-safe phone and watch for every age and stage.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Basically, the right device at the right time. So what does it look like? First off... Gab devices have no social media or internet apps. For younger kids, they have a watch with GPS tracking and safe zones. And for tweens, a starter phone with some features like monitored messaging and video calling.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And finally, for teens, an advanced phone with features like parent-managed apps and a premium camera. Bottom line, you don't have to give your kid a device that was made for an adult. Get them Gab, which keeps them socially connected safely.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Yeah. People who just wanted to be helpful, but they weren't.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And whether Jason and Damien were trying to kidnap the dog, it could have just been because they were rascals, you know, and trying to kidnap a dog. The implication for the occult ritual is the part where I think the police need to like sieve out. But it might be difficult because are they just coming forward because, you know, Jason or Damien looked askance at their dog?
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Or did they make aggressive gestures because they're rascals?
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
in between you know we're recording this over obviously many weeks maybe months and so we continue to read up on everything to do with this case and we still continue to live breathe everything this case and so most recently today i was reading about vicki hutchinson i was just texting brett i was like just from like a new perspective like i have a seven-year-old boy
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I'm older than Vicky, but I'm about her age. If I were just hanging out with a bunch of 17-year-olds and having them spend the night, whether she has anything to do with this case or not, whether Damien and Jesse have anything to do with this case or not, apropos nothing of that, that is a strange situation. And it's worth mentioning because it's difficult to
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
understand her motivations when obviously she keeps saying there's nothing romantic with these boys who are boys at the time but the relationship is strange the amount of time she spends with them is strange the way she's inserting herself into the case is strange again not to say that she has anything to do with this case but it's difficult to know whether you can trust a single word she says because it's unclear where the motivation comes from and this is not a regular insertion you would have from
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
like a bystander here and she appears to be more than just wanting to insert herself into a very interesting case not to mention that these boys are closer in age to her son than she is to them and her son was friends with the victims here and if she really thinks damien is a killer and she wants to trap him
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Why is she inviting this killer into the home where the friend of the three other victims who supposedly were killed by Damien live with her? And it's her own son. You know, you would think that she'd want to protect her own son.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Two bushes in our backyard is called the magic forest. Just two bushes.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So if you really thought, because you would think you only want to trap someone who you really thought was guilty, why are you inviting this killer of eight-year-old boys into a home where the friend of those eight-year-old boys, another eight-year-old boy lives? It doesn't compute and I can't make sense of it, but I think it's worth noting because she comes up a lot. in this timeline.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Yeah. I think there are enough reports to believe that Damien really does or has tasted another person's blood. Whether that has anything to do with, you know, a satanic cult is another thing. But it's a, you know, a memorable trait, shall we say? And certainly one that probably turns people's stomachs, which is why they're recounting these sorts of experiences.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And I was going to say, not only are we dealing with children, like across the board, those who are convicted, older children, of course, but teenagers, the victims who are really children at eight years old, but then so many of the witnesses are also children, classmates of the victims, you know, and not that they don't speak the truth, but there's just different ways of perceiving the world when you're eight, nine, 10, even 18 versus when you're 40, 50, 60.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
okay also in october october thirteenth nineteen ninety three the police talked to charlotte ann belloy who claimed knowledge of the local cult she said that a number of kids would gather at various locations and they would quote huff gas and glue and everything else they could find and worship the devil She told police that Damien had told her he was a devil worshiper.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
She also told police that the one time she met Jason Baldwin, he was at Lakeshore with Damien, Jesse, and another boy named Buddy Lucas. Remember Buddy was who was the one who was like, Jesse loves children, would only protect children. That's the same guy. So someone who was trying to give good testimony, I guess, or good, you know, good things to say about his friend, Jesse.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
They did drugs. Which totally rings true for like, I could see Damien, Jesse, Buddy, you know, all these guys, basically a bunch of teenagers getting together and huffing glue. And whether you worship the devil or not. I also believe that Damien often said that he worshiped the devil. Also, again, kind of like the blood thing. Was it more for the shock factor to be a rascal?
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
You know, I'm kind of liking that word tonight. And I say that really because like that's what teenagers do is you have to separate the actually dangerous versus just saying things to get a rise out of people. So I very much believe he said that he worshipped the devil. Whether this group of people actually worshipped the devil, maybe another story.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And that's a really good point because it's not just talk. He dresses to get a rise out of people. He speaks, as we saw in his first interview. He says things to get rises out of people. He does actions like dipping his fingers into other people's blood and eating it, right?
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And I note this because whatever the motivation is behind it may not even be relevant in that he takes actions to make you or the listener believe certain things about him. Doesn't necessarily mean he killed the boys, but when you see him willing to take actions, he does actually carry through with the actions.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Maybe because he's like a complete jokester, willing to carry the joke or, you know, not a funny joke, but a dark joke to the end, which is different than people who are all talk and who don't take actions. He's one who takes action to lean into whatever he wants you to believe about him.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So on October 14th, the next day, the police follow up with Buddy Lucas, who they spoke to previously that summer. Now, Lucas says that on the day of the murders, they had a barbecue and decided to take Jesse some chicken. Lucas says that when he dropped the chicken off.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
jesse was gone and he asked his dad where jesse was and he said he saw jesse walking off with someone he did not recognize now the next morning lucas went over to jesse's house and he said that jesse was nervous breaking out in sweats and it looked like he'd been crying He told them that he had to tell him something.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Now, Jesse told Buddy Lucas he'd been walking the night before with Damien and Jason Baldwin in West Memphis. Buddy remembered being upset that they didn't come to get him because he was feeling left out. Jesse told him that he'd gotten in a fight and that he'd hurt some people.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
now when lucas heard about the boys being murdered he asked jesse about it and jesse told him he was in trouble and that damien and jason had killed two of the boys jesse said that he had hit the boys in the back of the head and that he did that to keep them from running away he then gave lucas a pair of shoes Lucas said when he gave him the shoes, Jesse broke into a sweat and started crying.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Jesse begged Lucas to take the shoes, saying he didn't want anything to do with them. And Lucas told Jesse he was going to tell the police, but Jesse told him that Jesse himself would tell the police. Lucas wore the shoes on several occasions afterwards, including in muddy fields. So this is a lot.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Obviously, it sounds like what Lucas is saying is that Jesse is confessing in a lot of the same ways Jesse's already confessed to Buddy. And Buddy, like everybody else that the police have interviewed who has something interesting to say, they give him a polygraph test. And Buddy takes the polygraph. But before doing so... He says, wait, wait, wait, I am going to recount my earlier statement.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
However, when the polygraph was administered, he registered deception when he denied the things he stated earlier to the police. So the earlier things was pretty interesting, I'd say, but it's detecting deception. Now, after he failed the polygraph, and the only question he passed, by the way, was whether he was present at the murder. So...
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
at least for the lie detector he wasn't present at the murder but everything else he failed buddy told the polygrapher he'd recanted his statement because he was afraid of what would happen to his family if he testified buddy would later tell fogelman that he failed the polygraph because the police yelled at him and he was scared
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Now, during this later conversation, Buddy told Fogelman he'd gotten the shoes in February after riding four wheelers through the mud, which is the same thing he initially told police before he told the story about Jesse giving him the shoes the day after the murders. So after talking to defense private investigator Ron Lacks, Buddy decided he did not want to testify. I mean, whoo.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So very interesting, recants, explains away the recantation. And there's obviously a lot of inconsistencies going on in his testimony.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Right. And you could see the case for him trying to insert himself just because literally in his interview with the police, he's saying the night of the murders, he was mad that he wasn't invited to go walking with him. Right. Like you even see whether that part is true or not. You see the way his mind is working in terms of like the FOMO. He's not part of this. Everyone's talking about them.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
These are the people he's hung out with. These are his friends. At least one of them is his good friend. And then obviously, you know, whether you want to insert yourself into a murder investigation is how wise that is, I would say is probably not wise. And maybe it finally hits him like, whoa, this isn't just FOMO. This is something much bigger than myself.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And now I've told a bunch of lies and I have to unwind it, but I don't know how.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Great TV. Terrible, obviously, for like your life. I mean, this is obviously, this is like a jinx moment before the jinx happened, but also with HBO.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Right. It was like a proud... He didn't, I will say, he didn't look shocked when he told it to the camera, right? To the producers of Paradise Lost. It was like a pride in being the boogeyman of West Memphis. So now in October 24th, 1994, Michael Johnson writes a letter to Brent Davis. Johnson says... that he was housed with Miss Kelly at the ADC Diagnostic Unit.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And he writes that Jesse told him details of the murder. And he asks him to, quote, do everything in your power to keep Miss Kelly behind bars for the rest of this life. He's a very cold, morbid person. It's very interesting, right? This is the opposite. He's not exactly asking for credit because obviously Jesse Miss Kelly has already been convicted. He's basically saying, I'm afraid of this dude.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
He's like really bad. Don't let him out no matter what you say because everything he told me about these murders is just so disturbing. I'll say I don't think I've ever gotten one of those letters. I usually get one where it's like, I know... Who killed JonBenet? Or something like that. You know, I can solve this mystery for you. He's not trying to solve a mystery.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
He's saying this guy needs to stay behind bars. Take it for what you will. Because like all jailhouse confessions, maybe there's some stock in it. Maybe it's not. Maybe he just really hates Miss Kelly and wants to make sure this guy never gets out because he stole his pack of cigarettes. You know, it may have nothing to do with anything, but this letter was written.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Now, November 4th, 2010, so fast forwarding many years now, after years of failed efforts in the courts, the Arkansas Supreme Court orders a trial court judge to determine whether newly discovered DNA evidence or evidence of juror misconduct justifies either a new trial or exoneration of the three defendants. We obviously jumped ahead in the timeline because a lot happens. You're like, why?
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
These three are convicted. And then what happened to basically bring this back to court to have a new trial? Boy, I don't know. They became like you too. The following around them after the HBO documentary of Paradise Lost. I think that's right. Like it's Paradise Lost that generates all of this attention to the case. And I don't say this lightly. It's like...
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
a U2 concert in support of the, they are then known as the West.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
There literally was a Pearl Jam concert, which is as big as it got back then. But much like other cases we've seen, like Serial and Adnan Syed and Heyman Lee's murder, it was public pressure and really a documentary that spurred all of this public outrage to seek this new trial and why the next part of the timeline happens.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
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The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
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The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
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The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So June 9th, Michelle Carter tells the police that Shannon Bowles told her that Damien said he killed the boys and bit off their penis. Now, Shannon Bowles, on the other hand, also tells police that Michelle Carter told her that Damien said he killed the boys. This is not unlike many things that we've heard so far in this case. A lot of he said, she said, he said.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
You guys know at this point between Brett and me, we have a gaggle of kids. I have a lot of little kids at home and I'm always worried if they're getting enough nutrients. And it's honestly hard to find a vitamin that they enjoy taking.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I don't like having to force them to take vitamins and then enter Haya because they loved getting their own personalized glass bottles that holds their own vitamins. And it even came with stickers that they get to decorate their bottles with. So it's personalized just for them. And it's actually my kids who remind me every single day. Don't forget, we have to take our higher vitamins.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
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The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
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The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
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The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And then also the people who are supposed to be the in-between he said or she said, says something that contradicts the other testimony. What we haven't heard, of course, is someone said directly from Damien, you know, what they say.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
That is brought before the judge for a new trial. Now, on August 19th, 2011, following nearly two decades of intense scrutiny, allegations of jury misconduct, new expert testimony, DNA evidence, indicating that these three are likely to get a new trial, a deal is struck. The West Memphis Three have had all of these people arrested.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
writing letters, speaking in support of them, basically alleging everything you can in order to get a new trial. And the attention around their case is so intense, the prosecutors are like, let's strike a deal because it looks like a new trial will probably be granted. And this many decades later, It is hard to retry a case.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Almost no office will retry a case decades later because evidence is just, I mean, withering away quite literally because people forget things and it's been so long. It takes so much effort to retry a case this long after. It is not surprising to me that any prosecutor's office after this many decades would choose not to try a case again. even if the strength of the evidence was very strong.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
It's just a very difficult thing to do because witnesses decades later, as you've seen, forget everything. I forget everything from last week, much less decades later. They strike a deal with the three convicted and the three plead guilty as part of an Alford plea and are released. And we've said before that the Alford plea is a guilty plea for legal purposes, but you maintain your innocence.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So in the years that follow, the three have continued to proclaim their innocence with periodic efforts to test new evidence. This is still going on today in 2025 as we record. There are still allegations that there's new evidence to be tested and they're trying to get things tested. And every now and then it's like, oh, there's been another delay in testing.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So in terms of evidentiary development, nothing has really happened yet. since 2011 or even before that to change the face of the evidentiary landscape.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And for those of you not following, basically the deal was that all three had to take it or not. They weren't going to split it up. And so I think Jesse and Damien were going to take it and they were pressuring Jason to have to take it as well. And so I think he even said it in West of Memphis that he was doing it to free Damien. Like it had nothing to do with him. Which was very altruistic.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I don't know that I would have done that because just looking at the way the trial runs with all the direct evidence, with all of the firsthand testimony that has since been recanted slash people have just died or no longer remember what happened. It's a really, really tough case. But again, like you said, we're not the ones sitting in prison.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And if they took this plea, they knew they were going to get out. Otherwise, with their current sentences, they would spend the rest of their lives in prison.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So I want to say something because I know we have a lot of new people who are joining us. Really like your analogy of the getting a degree and this is like the background course and then we're getting into the higher level courses.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Another way so that those of you who have not heard us cover deep, deep dives like this before, think of it this way because a lot of you may be thinking they just got through the timeline in only seven episodes. In seven episodes and they totally didn't talk about X, Y, or Z enough. This is how much is in this case. Think of it this way. It's like we're circling in, right? There's so many parts.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
One of those like adults learning books where you like get smaller and smaller and every single little bit has even more detail as you get down to the granular level. We've tried to give you the lay of the land so you even know what we're covering. but we're going to get so granular within the broad strokes outline that we've just barely covered in these seven episodes.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And anything you think has been glossed over, go ahead and email us, but also hang on because it's probably going to be in one of these episodes. We are not glossing it over on purpose now. We're merely giving you the broad strokes and then we're going to fill in the details within this picture that we are showing and trying to describe as we get into the case. And
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
It's funny that we're just getting into the case at episode seven.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And now we're- Back then it was, you know, like even when we did JonBenet, I know there was a lot in that case too. That was a long outline.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And here's why, because the way we speak in the world is different than how you run investigations and what is allowed in court specifically for this reason. It is fine and it is not lying when you speak in certain terms that are vague or conflate things in our everyday. This is how we tell stories, right? It's very boring to tell a story like an evidentiary hearing.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
That's my point is all of these cases that used to be long, we could have made them even longer. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
We really reached the end of the timeline and it really took seven episodes, which I think shows you, please trust us that we will go into detail on a lot of these things because if we took seven episodes to do the timeline, we are trying to do this right and to cover it well. And I hope you can tell so far, we are really just trying to present all that is there because so much is not reported.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And I said this at the beginning, we really come to this with no agenda and we continue to do this and we endeavor to do it because we I think this case has so much lore around it. We just want the record to all be out there and then we can debate the merits of it once we're there.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I say I heard from Brett something when really I heard from someone who heard from Brett. But I don't give you the entire chain of custody of whatever I'm telling you, because that's how we tell stories. We're narrative communicators rather than chain of custody communicators. Right. And generally for communication purposes.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
The only thing that might make sense is you tried your best, and then later new counsel brings an ineffective assistance of counsel claim, and you basically testify in support of that, saying... But that will happen, yes. Right. You can say, like, it was my first murder trial. I didn't know that I should have done this. That was on me.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
It wasn't malicious or intentional to throw the case, but now looking back with all the experience I have, my first murder trial, I didn't know I was supposed to do that. So... Now I realize that's the case. That can happen. That's different than I'm going to throw this case in the first instance because that's a very stupid play.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Because even if you intentionally throw the case, and I don't know, these are real fact patterns from a case, by the way. You get drunk and you fall asleep at the table. That could still... not win an ineffective assistance of counsel claim.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So by throwing the case, quote unquote, you're doing your client a massive disservice, not to mention you're always supposed to advocate most vigorously for your client. You could be subject to bar complaints, losing your bar license. It's a very serious matter to do something like that. This is not a game of chess or whatever, where you're trying. That's not in your cards to do.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
You cannot throw a case intentionally.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
It's fine because you get the idea that I learned information from Brett because it has to do with his office, for example. And that's where the information is originating. And that's why I have some sort of reason to know it comes from over there. All fine when you're just having regular conversation, even gossip. Is it that Michelle or Shannon are lying?
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I mean, it's just your clients are different. There's different things going on behind the scenes that you may not even see. You're exhausted. You have no sleep. It's like it's an emotional toll on top of a mental toll and a physical toll to do trial. Like trial is just hard. And then have that all be broadcasted in real time. Sounds like a nightmare.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Frankly, none of my trials have been ever broadcasted. And if it were, that added element is just a lot.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Except they're probably not to you because it's not like narrative either. There are specific questions that are asked to the court. And unless you read the briefs or at least know the back of the case, for the most part, for oral arguments, you don't know what's going on. It's not like there's no timeline. No one built because you have very limited time.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
You may have 20 minutes, 30 minutes, and that's it. So you dive right in. You quite literally dive right in to the legal questions presented. And then the judge will probably cut you off in your outline and say, I don't care about that. I want to get to point two. Tell me about point two and why you don't win on this hypothetical.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
It is an inside joke no one explained. That's exactly right. Like even a lawyer listening to an oral argument, if you have no background and haven't read the briefs, you can pick up kind of generally what's going on, but you're not going to know intimately what's happening.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
No, but you can imagine they're in a group. Or it's just the two of them. But more likely, it's like they're hanging out, say at the skate park, at the mall, and everyone's talking. They said, did you hear Damien said this? And Shannon turns to Michelle and says, did you hear this? Shannon thinking that it was from Michelle, but really Michelle heard from someone sitting right next to them.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So, you want a funny story before we start?
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Sophie, thanks. My kids are all six today, so I'm glad I look nice because I don't feel nice. So my oldest, who is adorable and so cute, he was like, I'm part of a gang. And I was like, okay, cool. I was like, tell me more about it. I love that you're coming to me about this. And he was like, we're Savage. That's the name they've given themselves. It's obviously all boys.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
They're seven year old boys. This is actually on point for like what we're talking about.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Yeah, exactly. I'm trying to play it cool so he'll keep telling me about it. And he was like, and I was like, well, what do you guys do? He's like, we make mischief. And I was like, all right, like, great. I mean, are you like getting in trouble at school? Like, you know, you know, be nice to your teachers. Okay. And he's like, oh no, we have strict rules.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And I was like, well, tell me about these rules. By the way, like, I don't know where they came up with this because as you guys have heard, we don't watch TV. It's not like we West watch West side story. He has no concept of gang.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And they're all talking about it. And they're all talking about it as if it's true. So that when they're questioned about it, they're like, oh, I absolutely heard it, which they probably did. They probably absolutely heard that Damien said this, but they can't pinpoint where it came from This is how conversation works. This is how narrative conversation works versus who told you, how do you know?
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And this is why, by the way, we have to call witnesses to the stand. You can't just rely on hearsay. This is a classic example of why they need to be subject to cross-examination. So you can get to the core of... Were you the one who heard it? Could you have heard it? Did you have the ears to hear? But you said you had noise-canceling earbuds in at the time. How could you possibly hear?
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
These are all relevant questions to test the way that we communicate in regular world if it can translate to specific narrative for purposes of evidence. So all we have here is the same type of hearsay without any sort of being able to pin down that Damien actually said something.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
But as you can tell, more than one person in this community are talking about hearing that Damien was willing to say it. Does that mean Damien said he killed anybody? No, but it certain means that everybody's talking to each other and the same at least
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
narrative or gossip is being passed around now on june 9th also the same day damien apparently attempts to take his own life by suicide and he leaves a note that he says he loves his parents and he's innocent and he's going to be reincarnated so this was a good thing in his mind Damien had apparently saved all of his medication while he was in jail and then took approximately 12 tablets at once.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Now, we know this because immediately after taking them, he used the intercom to let the deputies know that he had done precisely this. So in other words, before really the drugs could take effect and there could be life-saving measures. So Damien was taken to the hospital and treated without incident. They got the drugs out of his system. He told them right away.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
So there was really no dangerous effect of him having taken all these pills.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
It's hard to say, except that generally, also, I think it's well documented that the vast majority of people who attempt to take their own life, especially by something like pills, which could be potentially reversed, have remorse immediately after doing the act that could lead to their death.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And so I think that is a general, that that happens to many people, whether or not they're trying to create, you know, some sort of narrative or not. Did they ever, could you tell if he actually took all the pills? No, he took them. He took them. Okay. So he took them. I mean, look, that's a big step. That's all I'm saying. I've never done that before. It's more than just talk.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I guess he could have just said it and then hope that maybe no one found out that he didn't take them, but he in fact did. Okay, so this all happens on June 9th. Things are hot in this case, right? In terms of potential suicide is obviously very alarming. So the next day, June 10th, Buddy Lucas is interviewed by police. He says that he knew Jesse well, that Jesse loved children.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
and he couldn't imagine Jesse hurting anybody. However, he also stated that if he was hanging out with Damien, Damien could convince Jesse to do just about anything. This is not really helpful for Jesse, because basically it's saying he himself wouldn't hurt children, but he is... basically mentally able to be convinced to do something else that he normally wouldn't do.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Which, by the way, I think applies to probably most teenagers. Maybe not just Jesse, but obviously this will come into play because of the arguments of his diminished mental capacity. Now, Jesse's love of children was challenged by one of his other friends, though, Dennis Carter, who had been interviewed the day before on June 9th.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
Dennis, who was a lifelong friend of Jesse's, describes how a month before the murders, Jesse had punched a 13-year-old girl so hard, as hard as he could, in fact, that he ended up in juvenile court for it. And I think we saw this earlier in the timeline that he had, in fact, been incredibly violent with girls who were much younger than him.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And punching someone in the face is very different than a play punch in the stomach even, as the face is, I don't know, in my household, when we wrestle, no faces is what we say, because you can do real damage to the face.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
That was the thing that sparked it. You know, it wasn't like a your mama sort of situation. It literally was to do with her. And that wasn't the only incident that Dennis told law enforcement about Jesse maybe not being just such a lover and protector of children. Because a few months before, a five-year-old had been throwing rocks and one of the rocks hit Jesse.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
I can imagine a five-year-old throwing rocks. My kids do this all the time. And I can also imagine that they're not very good at aiming. And it would not surprise me that if someone were standing around, a rock would hit them. Well, one of these rocks hit Jesse.
The Prosecutors
306. The West Memphis 3 Part 7 -- The Timeline Concludes
And instead of brushing it off, because it's just a little five-year-old child, Jesse chased this little girl down and threw a rock that hit her in the head. And he stood over the girl after he hit her and he laughed. Dennis said he wasn't surprised when Jesse was arrested for murder because of these past experiences with him.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And you guys, even if you think you've heard something before, Jason is able to bring out things you never thought about. Just check out these recent episodes. He had an interview with Kimberly Loring, the sister of a 20-year-old missing Montana woman, Ashley Loring Heavenredder, and about her search for her sister, finding faith in God and forgiving those who harmed Ashley.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
You'll have to check out this incredible interview he had about journalists in Minnesota and Iowa who are still advocating for and searching for Jodi Husen Truitt, a broadcast journalist who disappeared in 1995. And then there's this interview with a friend of a domestic violence victim who was murdered in 2023 in Minnesota.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
about what friends can do to be non-judgmental and supportive of those who are facing interpersonal abuse. You guys have got to check out this incredible podcast, Silver Linings Handbook. You can get it wherever you listen to podcasts. Homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or condo. It's about the home.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So a few things to note just before we really dive into the nitty gritty. She dies in 1974. She left Bill in 1972. So she starts a whole new life and basically rises to the top of this whistleblowing phenomenon that's happening within two years. I mean, call her Spitfire, right? So when you move that fast...
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And I'm sure Kerr-McGee and the safety violations didn't just start when she arrived on the plant. Likely had been going on for some time as these things happen and probably a lot of people knew about them. But until she kind of arrived on the scene, not much was being done about it. So a couple things stick out to me. She's a woman in a male-dominated field.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So she sticks out just by virtue of who she is. Even if she were a wallflower, she would stick out because of being a woman. Second, she rises to the top of being a whistleblower really fast. And she gets a lot of... Clout being on the bargaining committee, being with these other two union committee members, being ready to testify at committees in D.C.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
and gathering information to go talk to the New York Times. These are all big, moving things, and they're happening fast. And whether people are ready for her to move that fast or not is something that I'm seeing swirling around. So kind of a rocket shot to the top, which she's always done because she's bright.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Well, thank you. You know what? It's like Alex Mack. That was one of the best shows of the 90s. Was that the 90s? Something like that. That was the 90s. Didn't she touch some nuclear material and then she could turn into water? Never watched it.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Being different than the typical person who works in this field, also standing out, is to me already putting a massive target on her back.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Oh, well, I guess.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
That was the whole thing. She could turn into water and then go under the doors. That's how she could get places where she was radioactive, could go under the doors. Fantastic.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
You know, it was very smart because then you're invisible. But like you could see it as the Nickelodeon watcher. But the reason we're talking is smart. Isn't it smart? So like technically she's invisible, but she's water. So we see it. But, you know, if you're next to her, you don't see it because that's how TV works. True suspension of reality.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
But, Brett, I'm so proud of you for being punnerific because it's not about me. It is about the radioactive Yeti. Not about the radioactive Yeti, in fact. But we do have a radioactive case today. And, okay, I know you probably did way better in science than I did. I was not great at science. But radioactivity and nuclear weapons, all of these things, all I can think of is I'm scared.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So fast forward just two years after she joins the plant, Karen and her fellow committee members met with the Oil, Chemical and Atomic Worker Union's leaders in Washington, D.C. in September of 1974. Now, the group presented charges to the AEC, the Atomic Energy Commission, of over 40 health and safety violations by Kerr-McGee.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So the AEC listened to their claims, but they require that the committee members provide documentations of the alleged charges, because how do they know that there's any teeth to these allegations? These are serious allegations, but they could just be disgruntled workers. In fact, they had just had a strike that failed. So how do they not know that this may just be them trying to make trouble?
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So they say, OK, well, we need evidence and documentation of what you are alleging here. So Karen Silkwood is put in charge of collecting this documentation. This is a big deal. Again, she's in charge of basically proving the case that there is a case to be made at all.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And over the next two months, in addition to doing her job, Karen would work to compile this information, both in notebooks and on tapes. And she was working on all of this nonstop until her untimely death in November. Karen Silkwood, as well as OCAW officials, discussed handing over the evidence collected to the New York Times to expose Kerr-McGee.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So I just envision her quite literally having these notebooks of information, right? This is not the time of like computers. She's not stealing files. She's documenting things and her observations, that is the evidence. But what do you do with that? Now, as she's collecting this information that could potentially tank or get Kermagee into a lot of trouble.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
They decide to turn, who do you turn over to? Plutonium police? That doesn't exist. But what you do have potentially in your power is the public and public outcry, hence going to the New York Times.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And when you put true crime in there, talk about mystery of mysteries.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So he or she is collecting the evidence. And in October, 1974, so a month into collecting this evidence, Karen called a friend, another Kerr-McGee employee, James Knoll, and told him that 40 pounds of plutonium had gone missing from the plant. 40 pounds is a lot. Her job has been making pellets.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
small little pellets right that fit into your hand 40 pounds this would have been enough to make a nuclear weapon obviously this goes beyond just worker safety this goes into national security because whoever has access to that whether it's an individual or a sovereignty would be able to have a device that could threaten nuclear war
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And it's not clear how Karen knew this or why she hadn't reported it to any officials, because obviously this would be incredibly dangerous and criminal. It's also unclear if there was any truth to this statement. On December 30th, after her death, someone called in Tacoma radio in Oklahoma City during an open forum.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And the person said that she worked at Kermagee and had reason to believe that 60 pounds of plutonium was missing from the facility and had been sold to Russia. She went on to say that Karen Silkwood's knowledge of this fact led to her death.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So while we don't know if what she reported to James Knoll was true, at least someone unidentified reported after her death that Karen knew this, that there was indeed pounds and pounds of plutonium missing. enough to make a nuclear weapon. And because Karen knew this information, that is why she died.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Absolutely. This is going to blow your mind, guys. And talk about a timeline really mattering here. And if you are a scientist and you understand how these things we're going to start talking about, obviously a lot of science things. If you have an expertise in it, I'd actually love to hear how this works, how people actually study these things without dying.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
I mean, I know a lot of the scientists before we understood how to not be contaminated by these radioactive materials. But what did they do? They just died. That's pretty much. I would say that's scary.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So guys, when we got started making this podcast and spending time researching these cases, I didn't think it would have any effect on my sleep, but you guys know how I am scared of everything. And well, I realized these cases were keeping me up at night and they can be downright scary. So I knew I had to figure out a routine to wind down after researching, after recording and get myself to sleep.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And guys, I cannot say enough good things about this. I've always used a filter, but the taste from AquaTrue is just absolutely stunning. It is so good that my kids actually ask to fill their water bottles before we leave the house because they want to drink the AquaTrue beautifully tasting water over any water they can get outside.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
With a family of six, we go through so much water, but now all I do... For my cooking, for my coffee, for my tea, for my regular drinking water is AquaTrue. And I'm so glad they make it so easy. And it looks so sleek on my countertop as well. AquaTrue comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee and even makes a great gift. Today, our listeners receive 20% off any AquaTrue purifier.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Just go to AquaTrue.com. That's A-Q-U-A-T-R-U.com. and enter PROSECUTORS at checkout. That's 20% off any AquaTrue water purifier when you go to AquaTrue.com and use code P-R-O-S-E-C-U-T-O-R-S. And no, when she gets the second contamination, she hasn't been back to that glove box where they had found contamination on the glove.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And if there's a hole in the glove working with the glove box, that might make sense. But she's doing paperwork at her desk essentially, but is contaminated.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And this one is particularly interesting because the first two times she's found contaminated, she's in the lab, then tests and gets the positive response for contamination. This time it's when she's entering into the lab, right? It would make sense if there was going to be contamination, it would be inside the plutonium lab.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
But when you're coming from outside, inside, and you were previously decontaminated, that's confusing because any plutonium should be inside the lab.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So this is really interesting to me because remember, she left to go to a union meeting, which presumably she drove to the meeting. I don't have any indication she didn't. Maybe she walked.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
But my thought is she's asking for her car because that was one of the places she was from the time of leaving the plant when she was decontaminated and coming back and getting the positive contamination notification. And so the fact that there's no contamination in the car is really interesting.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So presumably that contamination would have happened somewhere from the time she parked the car and walked into the lab, which is not a very far distance.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And this is, of course, important because, as we said before, it's very easy to pass contamination. So that's why, presumably, we're seeing it on her hand and then all over her face because we naturally touch our face, you know, I think dozens of times each, you know, few minutes.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And so it's relevant that there are other people that she's staying with as she's going through kind of this whole saga. It's really only been about 24 hours since we had the first contamination, by the way. So at 7 a.m. on November 7th, Karen's boyfriend leaves her apartment after staying there that night.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And later testing would show that neither him nor his car nor his home were contaminated with plutonium. And this would matter because if Karen had contamination and had gone home and
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
and she was around her boyfriend sleeping next to him you would think that he would also show signs of contamination and then if he was contaminated getting into his car car would also show contamination but there's none of that from 7 to 7 50 a.m sometime between that time period karen claims that she spilled the urine sample she had taken in the apartment bathroom
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Remember, she had to take home fecal and urine samples to test herself for five days to ensure that in addition to the decontamination process, everything that she was voiding had to be tested for contamination. So she's doing one of these urine tests. And at home, she claims that she spills this urine sample on the bathroom floor.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
at 7 50 a.m karen arrives at the plant for work yet again another early morning and at the time she arrives she immediately goes to the health office with her kit containing the four urine samples and one fecal sample because they have to ship it off for testing so she's doing all the things she's supposed to do at home and the very first thing she does when she gets to work she doesn't you know sit down and do paperwork or go work in the glove box she gets in work delivers the samples and
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And when she delivers the sample, she also has her nose swabbed. And when they do that, it showed that she has significant plutonium levels in both nostrils and around her nose. And they also find that plutonium is present in other areas of her body, namely her hands.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
arms, chest, back, neck, and right ear, basically all over her in such a way that if she were say hugging her boyfriend goodbye that morning, really just an hour earlier or sleeping next to him or sharing the same apartment as her roommate, you would think that with that much plutonium on all surfaces of her body, it would have contaminated other people or other surfaces as well.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And by the way, earlier, we just have Karen's version of it, but if Karen did spill a urine sample, and let's say that the urine sample is what had the plutonium, if you've ever done a urine sample or you know how much you pee, it's not insignificant, but it's not like a massive bucket where you could just be like spraying it all over the apartment for purposes of- Speak for yourself, Alice. Okay.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Okay. Okay. We're getting way too personal over here. But you would imagine, imagine a spilling, right? Even if it's the entire jar of the urine sample on the floor, you would probably wipe it up. Because you can see urine and urine is not something you usually leave on the floor. You're probably not patting it all over the bologna and the cheese and the rest of the apartment.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
I note that because we do have one indication of why maybe there's plutonium contamination in, say, the bathroom. But all these other areas, including in the refrigerator or food that's kept in a refrigerator, as well as the rest of the apartment, is much more puzzling.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
It is, it's such an interesting, it's like following footprints, but we're following contamination and trying to figure out what's happening. And there are all these like crumbs of clues. Obviously, Karen is no longer here. She is going to end up dying quite soon. And whatever answers there may be, it seems like this timeline is all we have.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And it's like sparse crumbs trying to lead us to the truth. But it is a difficult path to follow.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
I'll do one quick question. I think someone's getting a little antsy, but let's do a question.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
country, I got, I got an official United States and they're all United States passports, but like a government, whatever passport to go to Canada because the witness was there refused to like travel the five miles into the United States for the deposition.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And we're about to go, which was really cool because there's actually so many protocols to have to go do as an official act of the United States to go take someone's deposition in another country. And we're about to go. I was really excited about the whole thing, except maybe not because horrible things happen. That would have been bad. And the whole deposition had to be called off.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So I did not, but I got the official passport and everything to do it, which is kind of cool because it's a different color and everything. You can't like even use your usual one. You just leave it at home.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Yeah, let's count you even touching it. Maybe not if you can see it, but if you touch it in any way, even if it's an airport. I have counted this at one time because I would love to go to all 50. What's your number? I don't know. I have to think about my number.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Wow. I can't come up with the number, but I think I'm just below 40. I would love to go to all 50.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And those are all like big states that you couldn't just like knock out two in one, really.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So I did a lot of cases out in that area of the country. We didn't have like regions or anything, but I just had a lot of cases in that area. And that's the only, so I only saw like the insides of courtrooms and, you know, like La Quinta Inns. That was it. But they were gorgeous from what I could see.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
That, that works.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Look, I think there are so many beautiful places even just within the United States. And I've told you this before. Part of the reason I wanted a minivan is eventually as our kids get older, let's go to all the national parks. We're going to road trip there. Let's road trip to Washington.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
No, there's still a lot of the timeline left, guys. So come back next time and let's try to make sense of this 50 year old mystery.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
I spent all morning at an ortho urgent care oh yeah that sounds not for me for a child okay I'm ready this is a crazy case this is a crazy case trying to rush it is a crazy case we're not rushed now that you helped me move up 30 minutes now we're like good we can go at our own pace our normal leisurely pace I think this is going to be two episodes Yeah. There's a lot to digest there.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
podcast truth and justice no i think it's i think it's actually um our our best our best advertiser what's her name um rob robbia robbia yeah oh yeah we should send her a thank you note did you did you sign the card yet
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
It kind of doesn't, but it kind of does, too. It depends on the state. Basically, you just have to get all your friends to say you were married. You have to get at least one friend who's like, what? They weren't actually married?
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And I'm Alice.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Yeah, that must be, she's really lived a lifetime by the time she's 24. She has, you know, this common law marriage, has three young children, a tumultuous relationship that she ends up leaving. And in leaving him, of course, leaves her children, which I think for any parent would be difficult. Doesn't matter if you're the mother or father.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
But that same month, Karen moved to Oklahoma, Oklahoma City to pursue a job at Kerr-McGee's nuclear plant where she would work to make plutonium fuel rods for nuclear reactors. So she is still gifted in science. And now after leaving this marriage, leaving her children as well, she steps back into this field.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And Karen is really excited about this opportunity because she is eager to pursue a career in science. This is what she wants. was doing when she met Bill, it got derailed for a few years. But now that she was free of that tumultuous relationship, she could step right back to where she was. But it quickly became apparent to Karen that things at this nuclear plant were far from her expectations.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Shortly after starting, Karen joined the Oil, Chemical and Atomic Workers Union and participated in a nine week strike. she became a member of the union's bargaining committee and began to monitor the plant's health and safety practices which she found lacking she began to see evidence of spills falsification of records inadequate training health regulation violations and even
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
very disturbingly some missing amounts of plutonium which is a highly radioactive material and these were just some of the problems that she identified starting out this whole monitoring process as you can tell the charon that we kind of just met this tenacious young woman in an age when women were not in the sciences. She continues to be tenacious. She gets involved right away.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
She doesn't just join the union. She becomes one of the leaders within the union, the bargaining committee. She is wanting to make sure that things are right where she is working. And so by being on this monitoring committee, she begins to see that there are a lot of problems at this plant that she's working at.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And this is not just your typical like, oh, there wasn't a cleanup on aisle five at the grocery store. Someone might slip. These are really serious problems because these types of violations can really lead to devastation at a nuclear plant. This is not just looking for problems for the sake of looking for problems.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
These lackadaisical safety practices at the plant were enough to convince Karen and two other union members that they needed to do something about it. They were going to testify in front of the Atomic Energy Commission, the AEC, in Washington, D.C. And they were going to expose basically all of these bad practices at their employer, Kerr-McGee. Karen was not just going to stop there.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
She wasn't just going to blow the whistle. She wanted to expose Kerr-McGee publicly for the danger they imposed on their employees. So she made a plan to take matters into her own hands and go to the New York Times. She wanted this to not just go into the black box of some committee who would write down notes and that was the end of that.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
She wanted to actually make a difference because this is where she went to work every day. This is where her friends went to work. And like I mentioned before, these safety violations could truly lead to devastation. So on the evening of November 13, 1974, Karen was headed to meet with a New York Times reporter when she got into a fatal car crash.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
But how exactly that accident occurred and who was responsible are still widely disputed today.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
But they probably do things like this to help each other out with the law, not uncommonly. And so it's just another thing that you would do for a friend or a brother in your gang. And not knowing that you're essentially now the target of a murder investigation. So let's talk about Pablo's testimony then. Because Pablo testified in this case, and we've talked about, you can always assert the fifth.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
You don't have to testify on your own behalf. And there's a jury instruction that says, if the defendant doesn't testify, you can't hold it against them. There are lots of strategic reasons for the defense not to put up their client on the stand. For one, they may not be likable to the jury, right?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I don't know how those letters make those sounds. I think everyone just wants... I bet you all these people have pools going like, what does a Russian accent sound like with a Southern accent?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Especially if you have someone who's not someone who sings in the church choir or is a sweet old grandma. If you have someone who may have cheated on their girlfriend or may hang out at the perfect rack, may have things that are just not very likable to a jury, that could be bad. You open them up to cross-examination, those sorts of things. But Pablo does choose to testify in this case.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And you might wonder why, as there hasn't been any evidence that his testimony would need to rebut. In fact, it's pretty thin what the prosecution has in placing him even at the shooting. And here's the thing. Pablo never intended to testify. So what happened? Pablo had a number of witnesses who were going to testify on his behalf, and they were all present the final day of the state's case.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
At some point, Pablo's attorney, Mr. McLean, told them that they could all go home. But then the state finished their case more quickly than they expected. And McLean explained to the judge what happened, that he'd sent everyone home so as not to waste their time. And he asked for a recess. But we have talked about this before. You can't always time a trial.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And the judge wants expediency in their trials. And the judge did in this case what happens in... literally every trial that Brett and I have tried together. The judge said, call your next witness. It's your turn. That's it. This happens. This is why there's so much waiting around if you're a witness in a trial, because you don't know when this will happen.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So he's like, look, I sent everyone home. I didn't know the state was going to finish as quickly as they did. And we just have a recess until tomorrow. And you have to ask for a recess because otherwise the trial continues. You don't take breaks in trials. And the judge basically blinks and says, no, call your next witness.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And if you don't call another witness, then you are forced to rest the case. And so the only person there, because all the witnesses were sent home, was his client, Pablo. And so with no prep or expectation he would need to testify, McLean called Pablo to the stand.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
This is like worst case scenario, but the other scenario would be that they would be forced to rest their case, closing arguments, submit to the jury. And now if we look back and just read a cold transcript of Pablo's testimony, The testimony actually went fine. It doesn't seem like the prosecution landed many blows.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
But of course, we know that a cold transcript doesn't tell the whole story and the jury isn't reading a cold transcript. They're seeing a live Pablo on the stand, seeing every twitch of the eye, every nervous jitter, and the way he responds to cross-examination to direct testimony. And it is very different to hear that testimony in person than reading that transcript.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And we've talked about this exact procedural situation many a times and to see it really play out. I mean, this judge is not unreasonable in that we have faced this with every single judge we've appeared before as well. And it's just part of, it was a tactical error, a real tactical error here.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Was it Murdoch? It was either Murdoch. Maybe it was Karen Reed. It was one. I can't remember. We talked about it. It was Karen Reed because it was like really confusing questions.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
It was one of those. Maybe it was Richard Allen.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Because it was questions like, what's your favorite color? Like it was so, it was a filibuster, right? We called it a filibuster testimony.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
This is Brady material, correct.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I hope so as well. Thank you, Alison, for filling in for me while I was out with my baby. And it was a great episode. I don't know. I might be replaced soon.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So the defense submits additional affidavits on post-conviction appeals to tell their side of the story. And this is some really interesting stuff. So affidavits are obviously sworn testimonies, but in writing. And they do have a different role, though.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Well, I am glad to be back and especially glad to be talking about a case that truly I don't find it that confusing, but I know that there are a lot of people at play in the Pablo Velez case. Most who have nothing to do with Pablo, which is I think why it's so confusing. And I'm glad to talk about it with you.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
You can understand why someone testifies at trial and then they submit an affidavit later on that may change their trial testimony, how problematic that can be, because what could have made them change it? Well, here we have Claudia, who was obviously at, she's the one who identified. Pablo in the lineup.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Remember, she's the one who followed the gold Cadillac, you know, remembered the license plate number, wrote it down in her Bible, that whole thing. Now, in her affidavit, Claudia explained that during Jason Woolley's trial, she had testified. And a man was sitting behind Jason taking notes.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Now, Claudia immediately recognized that that man was the blue-shirted shooter, the one that she had originally identified as Pablo. And she assumed it was the same man she'd picked out in the photo lineup. But when she shows up at Pablo's trial and sees Pablo Velez for the first time, she's immediately sure that's not the same guy.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
She finds the ADA on the case, Eileen Bogar, and tells her Pablo is not the guy. That is not the blue shirted shooter. That is not the person I meant to pick out in the photo lineup. And she tells her, and this is where it's disturbing in her affidavit.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
She says that the district attorney tells her it's too late to change her story and that she should just answer the questions with whatever she told the police originally. And may not be a surprise to you guys at this point, the man taking notes during Jason's trial, Richard Shorty Cisneros. By the way, that's not true. No.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
You're allowed to change your testimony anytime, especially if you think it's not the truth. So I don't know if the district attorney really said that. And if Claudia really as forcefully told her, I got it wrong. People tend to be more black and white in their affidavits. I don't know the actual conversation. So before we like pile on the ADA.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
It's possible the conversation happened where it was a little bit less black and white as this. You can imagine something like, I don't know, I'm getting real nervous. How do I know this is the right guy? I don't know. I don't even know what's up anymore. I don't know that I want to testify. I don't know if it's him anymore.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And then you can imagine the ADA being like, everyone gets nerves when they get on the stand. So remember what you told the police. You were sure of it. We went through it many times. You didn't misremember anything, right? You don't have to be worried. These people are not judging you. It's not about you. You can imagine that conversation. That's in the best light possible.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
But if it happens, as Claudia says, you can imagine that's very bad. Because if she says, this is not the truth. I now realize the error I made. I am sure that's not the same person. And an attorney is telling her, Doesn't matter. Don't change your testimony. That obviously would be problematic. You can always change your testimony, especially when you're under oath.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I think it gives it even more credence that she recognizes the man sitting behind Jason Woolley taking notes when she doesn't know who Cisneros is. So it's not like she's playing a game and trying to pin this on someone. She independently recognizes someone. As opposed to just saying, oh, Pablo doesn't look like the person I remember.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
She can say that confidently because she has identified the actual person who she did see. So I think those two independent factors really support this type of recantation where it's not just a willy-nilly recantation because you are strong-armed by an attorney to submit a helpful affidavit.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And Jason Woolley himself submits an affidavit. In his affidavit, he said that there were three shooters, two of whom were in the gold Cadillac. Jason refused to identify the two men in the Cadillac as he feared for his safety, something that we've heard of more than once in this case.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And he would say that he knew, quote, without a doubt that Pablo wasn't one of them and had, quote, absolutely no involvement in the shootings. He said, Pablo doesn't deserve to be locked up. This is pretty big. Again, we know this is gang related. And so he's not willing to go so far as to name who the shooters are, but he's saying Pablo had nothing to do with it. Don't lock him up.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Don't lock up this innocent man.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
No, you are right. You are absolutely right. It was a little bit shocking to see how thin the case was against him, especially when you saw Claudia's... I don't even want to call it recantation because I think she was consistent from the beginning when she identified, quote unquote, him in the photo lineup.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I think it was never a strong case, but you have these characters who are afraid to say things because this is not the only act of violence among these gangs. This will not be the last one. There's going to be a lot more. There's a lot of... Witness tampering outside of all of this. And when you have an easy person to pin it on, well, Pablo's name is on the gold catalog. Let's run with it.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
You don't even have to do that much witness tampering as a gang member to keep people quiet, right? The police naturally followed the lead. I agree that they should have investigated Pablo. He should have been suspect really number one to look into because of his name on the car that was seen, you know, speeding away from the shooting.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
But if they did any sort of digging, they should not have stuck there. We always say leads are just that until proven not a viable lead in your case. No, I don't have any doubt that he's innocent. And it's a real travesty that we don't spend all our resources on these types of cases instead of the Adnan Syed case. That's the part that I think is horrible.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Even us, you know, we did three episodes on this. How many did we do on Adnan? Not because we liked Adnan, but because we had to refute all of the noise that was said out there about him. This is pretty cut and dry. And here's the thing. This isn't just based on feeling. This is based on the court record. This is based on affidavits. This is based on the briefings.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Obviously, we weren't at the trials at the time, but read the transcripts. It's all there for you. And I think you would be hard pressed to find any more. If you think we're leaving out some sort of key piece of evidence that pins this directly on Pablo, I think we laid it out very clearly for you what the evidence is against him.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
It's not nothing, but it falls apart pretty quickly upon any sort of digging. So if you think differently, I'd love to hear from it because this is exactly the type of conversation we'd like to have about it. And I think that's productive conversation. But those three?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
No, other than please listen to these three episodes. It's not that confusing. I think we laid it out at the very end. Like the bottom line, y'all, if you want to skip the first two episodes and just jump to the end, it's a thin case. Read it for yourself. You can do it very quickly. And then if you're affiliated with Innocence Project type kinds of representation, take this one up.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
drop Scottie P Scott Peterson doesn't need you I'm sorry that guy is guilty pick up this one you can do a lot of good here
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
All of them, except for like two.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
They didn't call us crazy when we started the prosecutors.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And then, you know, substacks and writing op-eds. I think the proper question was, well, if the prosecutors, I think our spouses were like, good job, good job. Glad you have some hobbies. And they're so cute, so cute. Glad this takes an hour a week when it turned into a full-time job. That's when they started calling us crazy. Without quitting our real full-time job.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
At least two full-time jobs.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
No, truthfully, our biggest supporters are obviously...
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
our spouses who are heavily involved in all of this but they take none of the glory they're like always giving us ideas they weigh in all the time they're texting us in real time telling us where we mess up when we record which we greatly appreciate so just know this is like an all family affair for both of us but you're just we're just the voices you hear
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
we're so excited because we seem less crazy when we travel around with our four kids if you at least have three yeah we just took our two skiing and i'm not sure how we're gonna do three but we'll make i don't know how you took them skiing i'm really really impressed like just the gear alone i don't know how you did it we had so many bags so i bet
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Because, you know, it takes that long to corral toddlers who are like, oh, squirrel, squirrel.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Oh, my gosh. Can I go Odyssey shopping with you? It would be my greatest honor.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I'm texting her right now.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I'm going to text her right now because I told you how I almost got a second. I didn't almost. I asked to get a second one. And that's where Mr. Alice drew the line. It's like one Odyssey is enough. We're not getting two.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I have a Odyssey and a Highlander. You have the Grand Highlander.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Okay, that's great. Why are Toyota and Honda not sponsoring us?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
You know, Toyota, that one time- Well, I did send something to Mrs. Brett, and she laughed, but I don't know if this is true, so if I'm spreading disinformation, I'm sorry. But apparently, if you buy a Volvo, they give you the option to pick it up from, where are they based? Germany?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Sweden. She told me that. She's like, we can go to Sweden and pick it up. It's the same price, so you get to- Go on their dime. I'm probably just one person. For three days, test drive the car, and then they'll ship it to your country for you. So you get a free trip to Sweden. Again, I saw this on social media, so I might. There's like a 30% truth to it probably.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
But I did send that to Mrs. Brett because I know she was potentially looking at a Volvo, which has some pretty cool, you know. It's not a hottest thing.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Yeah, it has the fold-down booster seat, right? I think that's awesome.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Well, we have we have a couple months to work on it.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Well, congratulations. I'm so happy for you guys. I'm a pusher of kids because, again, you seem less crazy when you travel with other people with more kids. And the only people I hang out with are Brett and his family. So I needed them to like up their kid count so I wouldn't look as crazy.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So we could have two Brittany's. Could she be Brittany the second? Is that how it works? I don't know. That's a good question. Even if it's not in the same family, can it be Brittany the second? Brittany the higher?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Because mine is not, you know, blonde. I don't know if yours is going to be blonde, but more likely yours is blonde than mine. So we have Brittany the darker, Brittany the lighter. Let's just go ahead and cancel ourselves right now. Yeah, why not?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Thanks for living life with us, guys. This is like... Yeah. This is real real. We are in the midst of it. I can imagine maybe in like five to eight years, we look back and we're like, how the heck did we do it?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I don't want a fifth podcast. What are you talking about?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I don't want a fifth podcast or a fifth child right now. So just, you know, cool it, cool it.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I feel like we are just having children into our new podcast, which is about kids, like parents, right?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Oh my goodness. Anyways, I really am so happy for you guys. That was a really great little treat for our 45 best friends right here.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
It wasn't secret. If you saw me in person, it was definitely not a secret.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I was very pregnant and they were like, pretending like they didn't look below my eyeballs. And I was like, you guys, I'm so pregnant.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I think I was like eight and a half months pregnant.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
That's what you don't know. Yeah. That's the behind the scenes.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Man, I hope Huggies, like, I hope they actually sponsor us by sending us diapers. Because they can pay us in diapers and it would be about the same thing right now. Diapers are gold right now.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
We got you, baby. We got you, babies.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So many babies. Prosecute parenting. I like that.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Yeah. I mean, it's true, right? Because I mean, there would be a lot of anecdotes because I'm already working on them. My oldest is not that old, but he's in first grade. But I try to use my like scare tactics on him and his friends all the time. They'll be like, blah, blah, blah. Well, you'll go to jail. And I was like, you know who actually gets put to jail by me? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And they're like, you're kind of scary.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Yeah. Unfortunately, the prosecutor side really rubs off.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
We're kidding, guys. We're so tired. We're not kidding about the baby. We're kidding about the third podcast.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Someone go commit a crime. We'll do it. We'll figure it out.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Oh, man. Yeah, you're really going to carry dry January into vacation?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Also, it's not fun to do it when you're with your kids.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And everything takes extra effort. Yeah. So, like, I'd be working out all the time. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Maybe a smoothie. I mean, a smoothie.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I'm not going to lie, that made me a little bit confused. No, and another thing about the theory about the 9mm bullet coming out of the .40 caliber gun is that's probably unlikely too because we have, despite the whole, it could blow up in your face and kill you if you put a 9mm in there, is that the way the clustering of the bullets are found, right?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
The cluster suggests, and look, why, I don't know, if this were an ambush, what is the purpose of Jason Woolley shooting one bullet into the ground? to set off a shootout where nobody knows whose bullets kills whom. But all eyes are on the one shooter, which is Jason, and you want him to be clean as a whistle.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So it doesn't actually help his plan if he fires one shot into the ground, but then starts running after someone shooting them with their gun. Because I would think the purpose of the ambush is he sets off the domino effect to allow the shootings to happen, but he can have clean hands, so to speak. So that doesn't really work with the ambush theory.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Right. And so the reason these three episodes may seem a bit confusing is because essentially we're talking about two stories. We're talking about what happened at the club. And then we're also talking about, in conjunction, Pablo's timeline and whether those two fit together. So let's talk about Pablo's girlfriend.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So at some point in July, Pablo did have an all-night conversation with his ex-girlfriend, Anel. Pablo would tell police this occurred the night of the shooting. Remember the timeline? He says that he got back from his long-haul driving, goes home, eats some Lucky Charms, and then drives to his girlfriend's house.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And apparently he says that they had an all-night conversation, which would be a good alibi because then it would mean he is somewhere, not at the shooting. And in fact, Pablo would tell Anel he thought it was the same night. Now, Anel wasn't sure. So she went to her job and determined that the conversation would have occurred on a night she had the next day off as she would want to sleep in.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And she worked on the 16th, which is the day after the murder, because of looking at the calendar and thinking about probably wanting to have an all night conversation when she could sleep in. She then believes and concludes that the conversation Pablo remembers having occurred two weeks later on the 29th instead of on the 15th, the night of the shooting.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And this is because she also believed that she'd gone to the doctor around when the conversation occurred. So it's not that she definitively remembers this is not the night of the shooting. She's looking at her calendar and piecing together when she thinks it happened. And she, based on kind of things in her calendar, she thinks it actually happened two weeks later.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
However, Anel also indicated that this conversation Pablo talks about occurred around a phone call she believed they'd had in late July. But the phone call she thinks this conversation is about, actually happened on July 13th, which would be two days before the night of the shooting. So what happened here? Is Pablo confused about when this conversation happened? Is Anel?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Was Pablo asking Anel to just make up an alibi for him?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Hermosa. Hermosa. Español. Muy bien.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Thank you. Whoever suggested it.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Whatever. I was going to say Brett would never say that.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
That's not true. Thanks, Madison. And way to go pronouncing that. That was muy hermoso. Hermosa. Hermosa.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Here's the trouble with kind of not having clean hands in general, right? The reason he probably didn't question his friend on these things is he is around a gang hangout. Things like this happen probably all the time that don't involve someone getting killed, of course, something less, I guess, damaging than that.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Yeah, the title of the criminal act is child pornography, just so you know. It's not us being like, oh, we insist on using this term. It is literally the legal term everywhere. I don't think there's maybe there's some state who's adopted CCM. The other thing about using child sexual abuse material is no one calls it that. They intentionally call it CSAM.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And so in addition to inserting additional requirements, sexual abuse that's not required by the statute, you are also kind of minimizing it by calling it something like CSAM where a lot of people don't actually know what CSAM stands for. So you're even erasing the additional requirement of sexual abuse that you're putting within it to basically make it like anything else.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
It's just another acronym. It's no big deal. It's a huge deal. Anytime you're doing this, the point is to sexualize children, right? And oftentimes it is without their knowledge because they do not know what is going on. It is usually from people that they trust. This is what's so pernicious. This case is a model of it. So many of these types of cases that we prosecute.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Almost all of them, in fact, is a close family member, is a close person, a coach, a teacher, a babysitter, a nanny, a mom, a dad, a grandfather, a grandmother, a brother, a sister. Wrap your head around that for a second. These are the people that these young children, sometimes under one, sometimes six, seven, eight, 13, 14. These are people that they look to for safety.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
That type of abuse is beyond even just physical. It is emotional, mental. I mean, it is utterly earth shattering for these children, especially when these images live on for decades at well into their adulthood.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
I mean, by the time you hear this, if there's not a baby out, then there's a real problem.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And those are all very typical appeal arguments you'll see on sentencing, and they don't prevail because of the reasons that the appellate court said here. So William is currently serving out his sentence at FC Butner Low, which is a low-security federal correctional institution in North Carolina.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And the reason we're talking about this case is he is scheduled to be released in February of 2025, so in just a few months. Now, this story is devastating, but unfortunately... This is a pretty rote child predator case. They typically don't go to trial. They typically plead out. There's typically some search warrant. Someone's tipped off, right? Someone sees someone on a website.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
They tell the FBI or something. There's a search warrant. They seize their computers. They see all the child pornography on it. And there's a plea agreement. And you never hear about any of this because it doesn't go to trial. What's unique about this case is
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
is that this man's abuse of young children likely spanned more than half a century, and were it not for his victims fighting to stop him, he may never have met with justice. And with his release imminently impending, we wanted to share his story of how he was stopped despite law enforcement not acting on tips for more than 60 years.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And again, this could be law enforcement not pursuing, but I want to tell you two really sad facts. Number one, it affects this case. Statute of limitations are a real thing. Statute of limitations have a role in our justice system, but unfortunately, many, many states have limits on when you can bring child abuse cases.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And many of these victims don't really realize that there was abuse until after statute of limitations. And number two, There are way too many tips about child predators for law enforcement to investigate them all. I wish I could tell you that's not true, but having been on the investigative side, it is shocking. It is just shocking.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
A month and a half ago. I might be back by now. Who knows? The world is my oyster at this point.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
You can't have enough resources because of the prolificness of the internet, because of the, I think, more and more stratified nature of our society where we don't live in multi-generational communities anymore, where we have grandparents to be able to keep eyes on our kids and lots of neighborhood children with lots of moms and dads eyes on kids, making sure everyone's okay.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
We're just in a different society than we were previously. It has created many more pockets of opportunity for child predators to prey. And because of that, there just aren't enough investigators to go after all of the predators.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Well, okay, then I have to apologize. So, there is a reason to the madness of today's case, because I hate these cases, but they need to be talked about. I hope we can cover this case and never have to do another case like this, because we've touched upon... child exploitation cases before. We've talked to you guys about how, unfortunately, plentiful there are perpetrators out there.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And we had the opportunity, you know, this is a very personal story, obviously. We did not want to tell it without the blessing of the victims. And so these types of cases, because they've spoken in open court, they're not sealed, and they spoke to us. Specifically, we spoke with William's brother, Robert, who was kind of the spearhead of this whole fake email address that ultimately caught him.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
He gave his blessing for us to tell this story, but not because he wants his story told, but because he wants to encourage other victims who may be suffering decades later to say, I know it affects you, even half a century later, that there can be hope.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And my story, hopefully, can be hope for you to continue to seek justice, if not for yourself, then for the other potential victims that you could be putting a stop to.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And, you know, one of the things when we spoke to Robert that was just devastating is the reason they gave William the name Monster in the Closet was that despite the fact that these three men had grown up, really become incredibly productive members of society, have beautiful families, got married, have children. On the outside, I don't think you could tell.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
I mean, it's incredible what they've done with their lives. But one thing that they realized is that they had to tell their loved ones about what happened because this monster in the closet, this abuse they suffered 60 years ago would pop up all the time and it would take over, you know, everything they were feeling and they needed to process it and put that monster back in the closet.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
It wasn't something that left or became less painful after the years, but it was something that they carried with them day in and day out. And I think that's something that is very common throughout all types of sexual abuse cases, not just ones against children. But it is one of the most violative crimes against any person.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
We've talked about the dangers of, you know, social media. Even though this is now many months later, as we're recording, we're in the middle of the Delphi, Indiana double homicide trial, which obviously is a murder trial with victims who are young girls, Liberty German and Abby Williams. And I thought this was important to talk about because of the hope it can bring a lot of people.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
A lot of our victims who we've spoken to have often said, I wish they just killed me because then I wouldn't have to live with this. And that is one of the saddest things to hear from your victims because you see what they mean when this monster comes out and overtakes their life. And oftentimes we see that utter depression that takes over, that they have to live with it day in and day out.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So this story goes all the way back to 1957. Robert, who goes by Bob, is just eight years old. He told me that he was a little bit of a surprise baby for his parents. They had two older sons who were 12, 15 years his age. And then he came along as a surprise. So he was only eight when his older brother, 20-year-old William Ailis, got out of the Navy.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And William came back to their family home in Brooklyn, New York. Now, Bob and William's father had recently died. So... Young Bob was so excited to have his older brother back at home, to have another male figure there. He loved his brother. He was like this adult figure. He no longer had his dad. And for the first few months, Bob said it was incredible. It was so great to have his brother home.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
But one night, William snuck into Bob's room where he was sleeping and began sexually abusing him, something that Bob said would continue for years to come. Now, Bob describes horrendous sexual acts and being a young child, he didn't know exactly what to do or where to turn. We're not going to detail them here.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
I'm sure your mind can go to the darkest of places, but there are some things you cannot unsee or unhear, and I don't want to be the bringer of those types of things to your life.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
But just know that humans can be capable of some of the most depraved acts, and oftentimes they are against the vulnerable population and what's more vulnerable than a young child who doesn't understand what's happening and doesn't know who to turn to, especially when the abuser is someone they're supposed to trust, almost like a father figure in this case.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Now, Bob said he never explicitly told his mom, but that he, at least from his perspective, thought that his mom knew something was happening, but did nothing about it. I want to emphasize this point. I haven't spoken to his mother who has passed away, I believe. I can't speak for her, but this is something we see in child abuse cases. Kids often don't know how to verbalize what is happening.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
They don't know it should be verbalized. And they don't always know. But you'll often hear kids say, well, of course everyone around me knew. Whether that's true or not, it is the inability to communicate for a lot of these victims that they think people around them know. So whether they know or not, this is why we tell you what really happens in the real world.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So that if you think something is off, you need to be the eyes and ears of the community and not assume someone else is going to be the reporter of these types of abuse. Because sometimes all it takes is an adult who sees something off and does something about it.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
You know, you heard from the teaser in this, this is justice 60 years in the making. And while this is a very sad story, it does have a bright light at the end. And I think all of us in true crime need to know like what types of crimes are out there. And so this is a tough one, especially if you have kids, but I think it's important to know.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And let that sink in. That's more than a decade of abuse. And it's, again, at the hands of a brother who is almost like a father figure because of how much older he is. And Bob, unlike a lot of victims, actually does something about it because he can. He's physically larger. Oftentimes we'll see perpetrators lose interest in a child once they become of age.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
For whatever reason, they're harder to control. They talk to more people. Whatever reason it is. But this is incredible that he's able to essentially use his physical force to threaten his brother and say, don't you ever touch me again.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
But the story doesn't end there because up until this point, while the abuse has been horrific against Robert, he doesn't really know that this is affecting anyone else. But around this time, he finds out he's not alone. He finds out that William's also been abusing his nephew, Tom, who is 10 years his junior. So at the time that William... stops abusing Robert at 19.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
He's still abusing another nine-year-old, their nephew, Tom, and also his cousin, Paul, who was younger. Now, Bob realized that William was going to continue this abuse if he didn't speak out because all of a sudden he realizes this abuse is not limited to me. It wasn't something about me. A lot of victims blame themselves.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Now it's because I was in the next room or I shouldn't have worn that bathing suit. It's all my fault. We see a lot of victim self-blame, but here he's realizing, oh my goodness, basically everyone who's around him who's vulnerable is going to be abused by him. So he musters up his just courage and Bob approaches the NYPD and reports the abuse.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
However, because the abuse Bob reported was outside of the statute of limitations, the NYPD told him they couldn't do anything about it. Now, back then, this is the 1960s, the statute of limitations was as short as one year. I tried to find when it changed. Now it's something closer to five to 10 years, depending on the exact situation, once you reach the age of majority.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
But back then it was about a year. And look, law enforcement, if they can't prosecute something, they're not going to waste their resources on investigating a case because it's not going to go anywhere. They probably said, well, is he still abusing you? No, I told him I'd kill him. Okay, well, what you're reporting happened two years ago.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Even if we found that you're telling the truth and we have evidence to prosecute him, we can't because literally the statute of limitations is a bar. from being able to bring this case. So we're not going to expend our resources, especially in New York, if there's other child predators or there's murders or bank robberies.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So it's not a surprise that because they can't bring a case, they're not going to investigate. But what a devastating thing to be told. I'm sure he didn't know what a statute of limitations was at 19. You know, like what is that? It's a legislatively created rule. It doesn't exist absent a legislature saying this is when you have to bring a lawsuit.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And we'll talk about Bob's work to change the legislation around the statute of limitations. This is really incredible. Like, while he's trying to stop his brother, you know, like 60 years later, he's also trying to change the legislation. And I'll tell you, even today's New York statute of limitations to file a child abuse claim is still five to 10 years longer than it was before. But...
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Let's say it happens when you're a child, you turn 18, this clock starts ticking. And you may have to bring that claim as early as when you turn 23, which I see a lot of you in the chat, especially those in healthcare who report people telling you about abuse that happened decades earlier. That's completely out of the statute of limitations.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And again, I mean, this is the 60s, 70s, and 80s. You can imagine that if you hear something as horrific as this, that a parent may think that you're just telling really tall tales. And that is not okay to tell lies, little Tommy. And so we haven't talked to their parents or grandparents. We don't know what they thought. But we often see victims not believed.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And remember what it takes to believe here. You have to believe that your own son and or your own nephew is doing one of the most monstrous acts ever. How could someone you're related to who you trust, who you see at Christmas and Thanksgiving and on all the weekends could be a monster? Of course, that's not true. Instead, five-year-old Tommy is probably lying.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So we better make sure he doesn't keep lying because you know what happens to liars? They end up in jail. So I'm going to discipline you. You can easily see a situation like that. Now, in the early 1980s, after moving to Delaware, Bob is an adult now. He has his own family, but he can't let this go. The NYPD couldn't do anything about it.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So he actually, even though he's now in Delaware, his brother's not there, he goes to the Delaware State Police and tells them, them of William's crimes. But as you probably know if you've been listening to our episodes, there's nothing Delaware can do about it because all of these actions happened in New York. Remember, states have jurisdiction over their own cases.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So I can understand why someone would think I just have to go to the police. Unfortunately, because of jurisdictions, that's not totally the case. Delaware can totally believe Bob, but they literally can't do anything about it. It's not their case. It's not their jurisdiction. And they're not the feds.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So at this point, Bob reaches back out to New York 20 years after the first time he reaches out to NYPD. And again, because of the statute of limitations, they still say, we still can't do anything about it. And we can't investigate this case. There's just nothing we can do about it. I'm very sorry for what happened to you, but there's nothing we can do.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Around this time, his nephew, Tom, who's also an adult now, writes a letter to the FBI about William's abuse. So now he's going to the feds, but he never hears back from them. Again, I can't tell you how many tips the FBI get, especially about like child predators and And if it's detailing abuse from like 20, 30 years ago, you can imagine like it's going to be outside the statute of limitations.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
What are we going to do? There's not much they can do. But undeterred, Bob and Tom decide to try and use law enforcement to seek justice repeatedly wherever they are. They're not successful. Again, I can't blame law enforcement too much because they're not bringing present day claims. So they don't know that William is currently abusing anyone. All they know is what happened decades ago.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Statute of limitations. They can't do anything about it. So I don't think this is necessarily a failure to investigate by the law enforcement. It's that their hands were tied because of the laws that were written.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So there's going to be two parts of this story. The first one, we're just going to talk to you about the court case. It's not going to sound that exciting, but this is kind of like how you get Al Capone on tax charges. You know, there's predators out there and thanks to our very stringent sentencing requirements for child pornography and child distribution.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
I'll say Julie really is a hero in this case because we as prosecutors do get calls all the time from the public. In fact, we trade off days where it's our job to answer the public phone calls. And those are exhausting days because you'll literally get calls like, My cat's stuck on my roof. I'm like, what am I supposed to do about it? I'm a lawyer.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
But oftentimes you'll get these types of calls where you can even believe the person and their story is horrendous, but there's nothing you can do about it. And here you can see that happened to Julie. And she's like, what you're telling me seems horrendous. I mean, they literally drop everything and drive up to New York to talk to her.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And she's like, this is all horrendous, but look, I can't do anything about it. But stay in contact with me because if you found him online and you have any evidence of him doing this within a statute of limitations, like I will jump on this. My hands are tied right now, though. I can't do anything about your past abuse cases. And so they do.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
These guys stay in touch with Julie and they continue their efforts online to get William to do something illegal, essentially. So Bob keeps corresponding with William and William would send disturbing emails about things he was doing. He's bragging about basically his criminal conduct.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
You know, William says things like he's watching his neighbor's four year old child and that he watches kids in the bathroom at Disneyland because he lives close to Disney World because he lives close to Disney World. And Bob actually tells law enforcement about this. They're like, hey. He told me he watches kids in the bathroom.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And so law enforcement actually reach out to Disney and get security footage. And while they see William there on the security footage, they don't have any incriminating evidence. So police are trying to do things, but they don't have anything other than these words. And then the fact that he's at Disney could mean anything. Finally, William takes a misstep.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And this is finally something that law enforcement can act on. William becomes comfortable enough with Bob's online alias that he sends sexually explicit images to Bob. Bob smartly doesn't open any of the images because guess what? When you open them, they're cached on your computer. And then all of a sudden, like you are now in possession of child pornography.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So if anyone sends you spam, don't open it. Just delete it. And he promptly forwards this email to Julie, the prosecutor in New York who he'd been keeping in touch with. And when Julie gets these, she recognizes that this is likely child pornography. So she immediately contacts the FBI and sends those emails to FBI. So this is the right way of doing it, even though it's still a very risky path.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
This is often the way to get a lot of child predators off the street. So we'll start with the court case. But what's really interesting is how we even ended up with getting this 80 year old man behind bars. And this is one other thing we wanted to highlight about child exploitation cases.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
It would be like, if I threatened you, like I will, I have a blade on your daughter's neck. And if you don't send me a child explicit picture, I will cut her throat. Something, you know, like, you see what I mean? Like entrapment is used to scare people and it sounds sexy, but like he was going to send these photos to people.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So one thing I know a lot of you may be thinking is surely there's something out of the ordinary about William. Like how can someone be an abuser starting from what we know of age 22 all the way to 80? Something horrific must have happened to him. What abuse happened to him? And I asked that exact question to Bob. I was like, was there anything in your childhood?
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
I mean, you are one of three boys. Your parents were together until your father passed away. You know, you seem to have a loving home. Do you have any idea like where this came from? Bob was like, that's the million dollar question. That's the one question none of us can answer. As far as we know, there is no other abuser in the family. He had a great childhood.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
I know we've heard from people who've worked with sex offenders, specifically child predators, and they they have different thoughts on how long the criminal life is of these people. I will say this from prosecuting these cases. pretty extensively as my time as a prosecutor. While we do see drop-offs in violent crimes by a certain age, this is something that's factored in during sentencing.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
He was, you know, smart and handsome. And in the military, everything was going for him. Why do monsters exist? And I think this is really important. Sometimes this just happens. We can't point to a reason. You can't put these people into a box. This is why I really dislike people's arguments about, you know, certain perpetrators like Scott Peterson, for example.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
He looks too normal to do something so horrendous. No, monsters walk among us, and sometimes there may be no reason why they are monsters. And so Bob is sharing this story now in hopes that he can help other victims of sexual abuse, particularly older victims.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
His aim is to be a beacon of hope for the community and help others gain the courage to speak out and seek justice no matter how long it takes, but hopefully you learn from him and don't wait so long that the statute of limitations passes and that your own abuse can't be vindicated. And we like, it's really funny. 50% of the listeners on today's live have dropped off. I don't blame you.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
This is really hard. A lot of people will not listen to this whole episode, but I think it's important to do these episodes because so many of the other true crime stories we tell, there is this story underneath and then it leads to like a horrendous murder or a, you know, whatever. And then we focus on that. This is so prevalent in true crime.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And by true crime, I mean truly it is in your communities, no matter if it's a large city or a rural area, that we have to be eyes wide open, especially because of the internet. And there are so many ways to be blindsided that we don't want you to be blindsided by it.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
If you have children, if you know children, if you know schools, if you yourself are online, this is something you should be aware of. And like we said, there are other things that can be done. You know, whatever state you live in, look at the statute of limitations to report child abuse.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
As we said, when Bob was trying to catch William online, he was also working to change the law in New York on the statute of limitations. It's a little bit longer than it was back in the 60s, but it's still not that long. And when we start really showing that these predators, you know, should there be statute of limitations on them? I mean, there are arguments on both sides.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
But I think look at your own state's laws and think about, you know, if that was you who fell outside the statute of limitations, how that would feel if your abuser never met justice. Because these people typically aren't also like robbing banks, right? This is their crime typically, right? They are child abusers and that's typically it. Think about what that may mean for your state.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And there are things you can do about it. You can speak up for victims. You can try to change the law, or you can just be the eyes and ears of your community and make sure that these predators aren't just walking around free to prey on children or any vulnerable population doesn't have to just be children. You can make a difference.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And sometimes it's the extra set of eyes that does make a difference.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
We talk about this all the time, even in court. The judge even takes it into account. Like, well, by the time he gets out, he's going to be 85. Like, probably not a trigger puller. That's something you hear in court. Child exploitation cases are a little bit different. We often see, especially if they're undetected, we can see these perpetrators continue to abuse victims
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
well into ages you don't think it's possible. And this is an example of one of those, which is why I think these are so pernicious and so dangerous because people who may look like a happy grandpa or happy grandma can still be a perpetrator. So let's dive into our story. In 2017, Robert Ayliss found an email address associated with his older brother who he had fallen out of contact with, William.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Yes, that's thankfully one hopeful thing that comes out of this. And some of you have been asking, what is this case? Why can't I Google it? I don't think this story has been told anywhere because it's on the public dockets. You can find this case, William A. Liss, on the public dockets in Florida. So you can see all the public filings and transcripts there.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
but this is not a famous case because this is one of hundreds of thousands of cases just like it that's the sad part so we are only able to tell it because we were able to speak to family members who wanted us to tell the story but i don't think this has been covered on anything on youtube on podcasts that's not the purpose
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
This is a stand-in for so many cases just like it, but you don't always hear all of the background of how justice is brought and all the abuse that may be underlying a count in an indictment that just says possession of child pornography. We're trying to pull back that curtain so you see what a lot of these cases actually look like and what those tools are being used to do.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So again, none of the allegations we've talked about before 2017 have ever been proven. No charges can be brought on anything we've said. These are based on victim impact statements and interviews with the victims. So that's as much as we can. There's no cross-examination.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
But the reason we are telling it is because so often all the most gruesome details are not actually part of the indictment because they are outside of our realm of prosecution. So this was very, very heavy. For those of you who've listened to it, thank you, because I do think it's an important topic.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And if you are interested in true crime and how it really affects victims and how it really affects our criminal justice system, I think this is very, very important to understand. especially when people talk about it in a way that clearly shows an inability to grasp what we're trying to fight. And it is not a problem that's getting better.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
If anything, it's getting much, much worse because of the internet. With that, we should answer some questions, Brett.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
okay this is from g smith i listened to the michael peterson episodes what do you guys really think happened if you had to guess you guys joke about the owl theory but is that your actual belief i'm not joking we've always said i'm not a true believer it's the presence of evidence which is owl feathers but anyways what do i think really happened that was a good question what do you think happened
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And we'll get into how he finds his brother on this website, but it's a sexually explicit website. And there are several photos of William that are available on this website. William is in his late seventies at this point. It's been decades since Robert has spoken to his brother, but Robert could not mistake who this person was. It was indeed his brother.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
You mean Casey Anthony and Adnan. You said Scott.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
I was thinking Michael. I'm sorry. I was thinking Michael. You're sorry.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
I'd agree with you there. Casey Anthony, because she lies so much and a lot of people in her life lie and she seemed like a not a very attentive mother. I could totally see it not being like willful intent, but all the coverup obviously was horrendous. So I just don't know what to believe with Casey because it's impossible to know anything.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Cause I don't think she knows anymore because of how much she lies.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So I've always said grilled cheese, which is, by the way, one of the most delicious... I... Don't know how long it is because it's like childhood lore. But there was a period of my life from like age five to seven where all I ate were grilled cheese sandwiches. So I was told. And I also remember it.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
It sounds great. I just think it sounds amazing. I love it.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
As an adult, definitely with tomato soup. I just ate so many grilled cheese sandwiches as a kid. That's all I ate. But today, as an adult, yeah, tomato soup.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
American. It was like the kind that you take off the clear wrapper. Nothing special. Unlike white bread, no nutritional value. Lard on the outside, you get it nice and crispy on both sides. There's nothing nutritional about it.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And he had an interest in this because he knew of his brother's predatory tendencies towards young children, because Robert himself had been a victim of William decades earlier. So in an effort to catch William in his predatory behavior, Robert created a fake email address. and sent an email to the newly discovered email address for William in November of 2017.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Okay, I will say, though, I'm not opposed to the $35 grilled cheeses except for the price. But, you know, New Haven has lots of unsavory parts, but it has great food. Pizza we've talked about. Did you also know that, like, there are incredible grilled cheese foods?
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
food truck carts and there was this one i can't remember it was like a little hobbit house i had to walk down the stairs like an 1800s house and all they served were super fancy grilled cheeses and it was like a couple blocks from my house and on cold winter nights i would literally just trudge over by myself in pajamas and order very fancy like gouda grilled cheese sandwiches and
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
delectable again now as an adult as a kid i just wanted the wonder bread you know lard fried clear cheese packaging see i still prefer that i would rather have i will not turn that down i will not turn that down but i'm saying when you have like a really good like substantive it's they're all great you can't go wrong
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Man, now you're making me really want to go make a grilled cheese sandwich.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
We don't have any. I don't know. I make sourdough bread, which is like good, but it's a little too dense for like a good grilled cheese. Man, maybe we should have a grilled cheese making party. I'm excited. White bread.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Two things. back to food real quick the two best food items i've ever had at someone's wedding was a mashed potato bar amazing like that should just be a thing i didn't even know you could do that like literally just mashed potatoes and then like all the fixings but like it's a wedding so it's like 30 different types of fixings, you know, bacon and chives and sour cream and cheddar, et cetera.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And a grilled cheese and tomato, different types of soup bar. That was also awesome. Like little dippers that you could do as well. And they grilled it for you. So you could make your grilled cheese with whatever you wanted in it. I just wanted regular cheese, but those two things, if you're trying to woo me or get me into like a white unmarked van, just tell me you have a grilled cheese bar.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
dipper soup bar or a mashed potato bar and i will willingly walk into that kidnap van
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Maybe we should just have like, Next birthday party. We're going to have a mashed potato bar, man.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
He did this with hopes of catching his brother in a criminal act to finally find justice for all the past abuse he knew of. Because at this point, no law enforcement was looking into William, and Robert wanted to do something about it. Robert and William, William doesn't know he's talking to his brother. He thinks it is an email coming out of the blue, expressing sexual interest.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Thank you guys for sitting through this episode. This is more like a PSA than entertainment. I know that. But thank you for sticking with us.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
I don't think people like noticed last time because we recorded ahead of time and it's not like we did lives all the time. We did the Murdoch cases live, but that was like a special thing. But this time you guys are actually going to like feel the effects. Sorry.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
It's going to be so fun. People only want to see you just wear your top hat and read the dictionary. People will love it. one of us i blame myself the one the one who is not here was me oh my goodness don't worry guys i'm not gonna i'm not gonna be gone for a while i can't help it i can't help myself i miss you guys i'm hooked on y'all
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And the two start having very sexually explicit conversations. One in which William actually admits to sexually abusing a male infant in his family. And ultimately William sends Robert several images of child pornography over the internet, as well as nude photos of himself.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So I can't emphasize enough what Brett just said. This is kind of a one in a trillion case where catfishing in the reverse for justice works. Don't actually do this at home. When we tell you the full story of how Robert got to this point, you'll understand why the police believed him and why this was a very special circumstance.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Because I think even Robert himself would tell you, I hope you never have to do this. I hope you never have to be the investigator to catch a child predator. This was his last resort, and we'll show you why in just a little bit. But what I hope you get from this story is be wary, report everything, be eyes and ears for your children and for your community.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Now, this is a pretty straightforward case in the sense of child pornography. On April 10th, like within the week of the execution of the search warrant, April 10th, 2018, William is indicted on two counts. Count one, distribution of child pornography. Count two, possession of child pornography. This is pretty typical that we'll see. You're going to have the possession and the distribution.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Wonderful in the sense of being able to prosecute this federally. These are almost exchanged online. Online, you have your interstate commerce. You have the use of wires. That's how there's the federal hook. Whereas, as we know, actual child abuse cases, just like other violent crimes, are typically going to be state and local charges.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So that's why you see so many long sentences and prosecutions by the feds of child pornography when the reason they're going after the child pornography is it's the federal hook to be able to get the abuser off the streets. So here on June 15th, 2018, this is one of those fast cases and a lot of child pornography cases go like this because it's so fast. Direct.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Plenteous. Well, thank you. Does that mean a plenty? Because I am a depleted. Ha ha!
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
You usually have the person confess. They've usually never been in trouble with the law before. You have their IP address. You have their phone number. Think about all the information you give Facebook or Instagram or TikTok when you sign up for an account. You give them a lot. It's kind of hard to weasel out of it and say, that wasn't me, especially if your face is in any of these pictures.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
So he's kind of caught, right? So he pleads guilty and he signs a plea agreement just a month later. And under that agreement, William would plead guilty to the first count distribution and the prosecutors would seek dismissal of the second count, which is possession. That's pretty typical as well.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Because of the harsh sentencing guidelines, typically, it doesn't really matter how many counts are brought because they can look at how many images you have on your computer and how egregious the manner is in sentencing. Now, this charge carries a minimum five-year sentence and a maximum 20-year sentence.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
But as we told you before, sentencing guidelines are calculated based on a number of things, including your criminal history. So if your criminal history is nil, nothing, it's going to be lower. You're probably not going to reach that 20-year sentence. And also sentencing guidelines are, what is it?
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
whatever you're you're plenteous you're abundant i'm very excited to be here with you guys tonight i was telling brett before we started recording october i love october as an adult like it's really fun they're like pumpkin patches for kids it's trick-or-treating it's all that's fun but it might kill me all the fun we had two soccer championships tonight for my kids trunker treats galore fall fests everywhere there's so much fall joy i need a little fall boring
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
they're discretionary the judge doesn't have to follow what it is but this particular plea agreement the prosecution agreed to recommend a five-year sentence to the court and what this means is the court is not bound by it we do a legal briefs episode on plea agreements there are binding plea agreements and non-binding ones this is a non-binding one five years you may think is pretty low
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
I think it sounds pretty low, but it's probably because he's 80 years old. There probably weren't that many images and he pleads guilty within the month. So he's really not dragging this out. The prosecutors are going to recommend the minimum sentence. Now, when he shows up to court to do his sentencing in October of that year, It's held before Judge Robin Rosenberg.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And like many sentencings, you have the opportunity for victim impact statements. We've covered victim impact statements in other cases before. You've seen them in the trials. This is one of the cases that I've seen victim impact statements really be able to change a judge's mind. So the judge has before them probably like, oh, this guy sent three pictures of himself, something like that, right?
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And they're thinking, okay, the prosecutors are recommending five years. But then you have three family members who take the stand, and this is not part of the child pornography case whatsoever. In fact, what they're going to say is completely outside the four corners of the indictment.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
But Robert, William, and Tom Ailis, these are his brother and his nephew and his cousin, they all get on the stand during the sentencing. And they themselves are older men as well. They're in their 60s and 70s. And they detail horrific sexual abuse at William's hands when they were children. So we're talking about abuse that took place half a century earlier.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
And they talk about the sexual abuse that was repeated over years by William. And the judge was so moved by these victim impact statements that she actually stepped off the bench for about three hours, which is a pretty long time, and takes this into account and comes back on the bench. and declines to take the prosecutor's recommendation of five years and sentences him to what she can.
The Prosecutors
280. The Crimes of William Aellis -- Warrior
Remember, there still are guidelines. And she sentences him to eight years. This means that he is getting out February of next year.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
That's why Homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in-depth information they need to find the right home.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So now in March 1993, remember from last time, Damien's family, his sister, dad and mom had been living in Oregon and they put him on a bus and sent him back to Arkansas where he wanted to be. Now, in March, Damien's parents and sister moved back to Arkansas from Oregon. And Damien had already been in Arkansas for about a year. Now, his parents followed.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
But at this point, he and his sister, Michelle, have missed so much school that neither of them end up going to school once they're in Arkansas because they wouldn't have passed the grade anyway. So they were just going to like wait out the year and then start again, which I don't know if that's allowed. But there you have it. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
It's the 90s, right? Truancy may not have been as strictly enforced or not, but you're seeing again kind of the instability because what do you have when you go to school? You have community. You have other eyes on you, whether it be teachers or coaches or guidance counselors or access to other friends, that sort of thing, right? So we are beginning to see the situation that he's in.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Not only did he move cross country by himself and then his family came afterwards. He's not in like a stable school setting where lots of eyes are on him. Now, this next thing I'm going to tell you about, take it with a grain of salt because you'll understand once I tell it to you.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Hi, Brett. I don't know that I'm timely, but thanks for saying that. You know why? Because we are going to get through this case in a timely manner. So far, at this rate, that's a joke. That's a joke. We're doing pretty good. We're doing pretty good. For those of you who are like, oh, they said it's going to be an ex-parter. We have no idea. We have no self-control.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
But on March 1st, 1993, Jennifer Ball is a teenager who knew Damien and she is on the phone with her friend Amanda Lancaster during a storm while she's on the phone. Damien Echols appears outside of Jennifer's window shouting, quote, you bitch, I'll get you. I'm going to kill you. You're going to die. It's unclear exactly what spurred this.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And later on, Jennifer would tell the police that she could hear Damien in her mind telling her he was going to kill her. Take that for what it's worth. Now, after Damien is arrested, Jennifer claimed that she received a phone call telling her that she would have been Damien's next victim. So a lot of suggestion there, obviously, because at this point, Damien's been arrested.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
He's been in the news. You know, what he's been accused of is a horrific triple murder. But that is what Jennifer reports.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Right. And to step away from this specific case, whenever we see something horrific, especially when it's in our own community, we tend to internalize it and think about, you know, we're all like egotistical by nature. It's OK. It's just the way like society continues on is we want self-preservation is you naturally put yourself into, oh, my goodness, what if it was me?
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Or I had an interaction with him or one time he said something to me. What if I was next? So it's very natural for that to happen. But obviously, with such a highly publicized and highly graphic perspective, murder, you can see why a lot of these stories are coming out.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And like Brett said, it might just be hard to suss out what's actually happening at the time versus looking back once they know he's being accused of this crime, then playing things back with that sort of hindsight vision.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So even if we wanted it to be a certain number of parts, like we could stick to it.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Yeah, I didn't know until we dove into this either. And especially this isn't just another breakup, just another fight. I mean, he's completely moved out by that night, which is a pretty serious step in terms of breaking up. So that brings us to Wednesday, May 5th. Obviously, we're going to go into a lot more detail of the timeline here.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Some may call them rabbit trails. Some may call them rabbit holes.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
That's a great preface on the times. We will say the times, but please take them with a grain of salt. You'll see as we go through how some of the times change. And as we've said many times before, eyewitness testimony is incredibly faulty because few of us have perfect internal clocks. And even as things are happening, we don't necessarily note the time until after the fact.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And then you're looking at it in hindsight. That's why we try to peg it to things like TV shows or Sunset. But even that you'll see comes with a faulty memory. So that morning, Damien's mom takes him to an appointment he has at the East Arkansas Mental Health Center. It's a standing appointment he has due to his prior struggles with mental illness.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
On the way home, she stops at the pharmacy to drop off a prescription for Damien that she will pick up the next morning. There is some debate about when exactly she picks up this prescription. But as you can see, this day is starting off basically as what we've seen for Damien for the past couple of years. Mental health help, mental health problems, needing prescriptions, this sort of thing.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
But that morning, he has an appointment and is with his mom relatively early. Around 1 p.m., Damien's mom drops him off at Domini's, his girlfriend's,
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
after jason gets out of school damien wants to hang out with him but jason has to cut his uncle's grass so they don't spend much time together jason dominie and damien go to the laundromat where dominie and damien will get picked up at a later time at one fifteen some one steals a car It is the 665th criminal case opened in West Memphis that year.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
This is going to be relevant here because a lot is going to be said about the case number that is assigned to this case. So in other words, the crime preceding this is the 665th case.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So around 3.10 p.m., so shortly after school lets out, John Mark Byers, who's Chris's adoptive father, arrives home and he expects to see Chris, but Chris is not there.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Sometime between 3.15 and 3.30, this is from a 2009 affidavit, Jamie Clark Ballard will recall walking home with Ryan Clark, Chris Byers' older brother, and as they arrived at home, Mark Byers was in the driveway telling Ryan to find his brother. Ryan Clark would tell police he got home at exactly 3.38 p.m. So Chris isn't home when John is home.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Around the same time, Michael Moore stops by the Hobbs household and asks if Stevie can come play. Initially, Pam says no, but they eventually wear her down and she says yes. It's a decision that she says will haunt her. She told Stevie Branch if he isn't home by 4.30, he'd be grounded.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And I wonder if it was pretty commonplace, right? Like the difference between 4.30 and 6.30 is sunset, right? Even if you didn't have a watch, there's like a pretty big difference between pretty soon after school when it's still daylight and basically knowing that the sun is setting, right? Wherever you are. And maybe this is something they do all the time. Maybe, I don't know.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
But I was taking note of this today when I was riding bikes with my seven-year-old at 4.30 and just thinking how... You know, if three hours later he still wasn't home, it would be, you know, beyond panic. If he wasn't home in one hour, actually, it'd be beyond panic.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So I agree with you that this particular thing, I'd always expected her to say he better be home by dinnertime rather than 4.30, which is kind of on the early side for dinnertime. But it's actually relatively early and he clearly doesn't make it home by 4.30. And I think it's still very well playing at this time.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
What? This case controversial? Never. The only controversial thing you'll say.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Yeah. I mean, we have like, you know, Stevie's mom saying that Michael came to ask for Stevie to play and the two of them ran off together. So it'd be kind of strange for them to be separated at this point, too.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
That's right. So we start back in January of 1993, specifically January 19th. Damien describes abuse he's suffered and he says that he just suppresses it all inside. And when he talks about this, he describes this anger simmering inside of him as more like rage. The next day, medical records note that Damien has thoughts of killing himself and others.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
As we know, that's part of why he's being institutionalized because of these suicidal ideations. Damien says that the rage leads him to blow up. And when that happens, the only solution is to hurt someone. He says that he's been told he could be the next Charles Manson or Ted Bundy. And he says that people will remember him.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So around 4.30 to 5, Heather Cliette, who is maybe Jason Baldwin's girlfriend, tries to call him, but there's no answer. And she calls again at 6.15, but the line at this point is busy. The 90s, full of call waiting. Oh yeah, and that's another thing. So many movie plots wouldn't happen.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Right here. So 5 o'clock, Catherine Fleming, who lives at Mayfair Apartments next to Robin Hood Hills, says she sees all three boys riding on their bikes. Again, remember, one of the boys, Chris, doesn't have a bike. 5.15, 8.24 holiday, Christy Blanchard saw two of the boys, one with a scout t-shirt and one with a white t-shirt, at approximately 5.15 on Wednesday, riding bikes.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
I'm actually surprised that more of the sightings so far don't mention it because it's one of the few distinctive things you can remember. Like three kids with three types of sneakers, I'm not going to remember what colors they are, but a Scout outfit would kind of stand out very much so.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So I'm actually surprised that of all the sightings so far, this is the first time we hear the description with the Scout, which again may point to the previous sightings as not completely accurate or... You know, with the passage of time, trying to fill in holes.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So the first 530 is about to happen. So before you at us, we recognize not all of these things could happen. And that's exactly the problem with trying to figure out the timeline on this day. So the first version of 530, Jeff Martins sees the boys heading down Goodwin towards Robin Hood.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
By the way, like, I mean, you can see that this history that he has, it's all leading up to now. This is not the first time he has been explosive. The first time he has expressed suicidal ideations or wanting to hurt other people. It's been something that has...
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
He says they waved at him and he describes it as one boy riding on his bike and another boy with two boys on the bike. He also says there was a boy walking and his mother will confirm that they saw four boys. The at least two kids sharing a bike would make sense in the sense that Chris didn't have a bike. But here again, you have maybe four boys coming into the picture.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
followed him with kind of his tumultuous childhood with, you know, his father leaving, then coming back in the picture with a stepfather who adopts him. And then there's allegations of abuse towards his sister. So all of these things, this is not overnight. You can see that there's been a long history of leading up to where this is. So much so that it's apparent to those around him.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
People are telling him to his face that he's going to be the next serial killer. I mean, I don't think anybody's ever told him that.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
How do I know? He is, I mean, that's like a real high goal and a dark goal to be reaching towards. But all of this to show, this is still months before the murders we're going to talk about here. Already we're seeing the profile of a very disturbed young man emerging.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
I mean, up to this point, remember, there are the three boys, four boys, three bikes, not bikes. But now that we have him basically across town from where all the other sightings were, and he was on his skateboard, not with the other boys, being whipped by, you know, his stepfather. You can see why all of these eyewitness testimonies, it's really hard to know what is right.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And not that any of these people are lying. People want to be helpful and they may have seen people. This is a neighborhood with lots of kids backing up to an elementary school. It wouldn't be surprising to me that these people all did see kids, whether they were the three that we are interested in right now or not is another question.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So sometime between 530 and 6, Deborah Otinger of 1309 Goodwin sees boys in her yard. Then they start heading to Robin Hood. During the same period, Kim Williams, a friend of Dawn's, sees Stevie and Michael, but not Chris, heading in the direction of Robin Hood Hills.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
When they had mentioned earlier going to their secret fort behind Mayfair, again, that's probably Robin Hood Hills. You can imagine if there were other boys with them, and if they are sharing bikes or whatever, and someone has to go home, maybe they all go, and they maybe all leave to bring mystery boy home, and in returning, pick up Chris or something along the lines.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
This is something I can see, especially if you have a secret fort, and there's multiple of you, people joining in, people leaving. There can be lots of reasons for going in and out. Now, between five and six, Terry Hobbs, who probably wasn't that worried about Stevie, goes over to David Jacoby's with his daughter Amanda to play guitar. This is in the midst of him kind of looking for Stevie.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Now, Terry agrees that he went over, but he denies that he was there to play guitar.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So at 545, Alan Bailey Jr. tells police that he sees the boys and that Michael Moore tells him they are in a hurry. Stevie Branch was with Michael but didn't say anything. They were on their way to pick up Chris Byers. Bailey says both boys had their backpacks on and that Stevie was wearing red shorts with white shoes.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
This is a little strange as the missing persons report has Stevie wearing blue jeans. Moreover, no bags were ever found with the boys.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
I'm still nervous because when the timeline doesn't fit, it gets me very anxious.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
No, that's not how we're going to go about this case. There's so many like square holes, you know, circle pegs, whatever sort of things with this case.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
This shows you why eyewitness testimony is so faulty, right? Because these boys are known to these people and they probably see them every single day, whether they saw them this day. This is a lot like Lacey Peterson in the sightings, right?
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
I think everyone truly remembers these times and seeing them, except they all know each other and they are always boys playing outside that it's so difficult to pin down to what really happened that afternoon.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
All we have is the Muppet Babies so far. Yeah, exactly. Which is not even helpful because Chris leaves.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And we'll get more into his records and whatnot. But I don't know. I'm curious, Brett, if this stuck out to you from the very beginning and just reading about who he is and reading his writings from then all the way until now. The thing with Damien, though, is he is very good at... being poetic, right? The way he speaks, the way he describes things.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Fantastic question. Really fantastic question. No, I think we can both tag team them because I think it's really easy to make broad statements like circumstantial evidence isn't trustworthy or direct evidence is the best or touch DNA never works. We never say touch DNA. itself doesn't matter. Context is everything, just like every single case. That's truly why we love what we do, right?
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
There is not a single crime or a single case that we prosecute that's the exact same. There is no formula for this. So it's not that touch DNA itself doesn't matter. You have to look at the context. So because you are so good with Adnan, I'll let you do Adnan. The reason Brian Koberger, it matters is there was no reason for him to be in that house whatsoever. And it is on the knife sheath
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
that ended up killing them on top of, I think, one of the victim's bodies. So it places him there. A knife sheath is something that you hold, presumably as you are unsheathing it in order to commit the murders with the murder weapon. Not, and I'll pass it on to you, the bottom of a shoe that often touches lots of DNA that was not even on the victim's body.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
There's a reason why people have been drawn to what he writes, because he's very good with his words, so much so that when he says things like this, that people will not forget me, I'll be the next Ted Bundy, that sort of thing. He tends to speak in very, like,
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And why that's such a good question, I think absolutely illustrates why we always joke that we're so long winded, because none of these pieces of evidence or these theories fit into neat boxes.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And that's why when you are fed like a one liner, you know, clickbait about a case, they're almost always wrong because it's really hard to describe these very complex, contextualized explanations for evidence in a heading that will grab people's attentions. So that is why it's such a good question and why we're so... long-winded because there's a lot to explain on these sorts of things.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
grand gestures and that is kind of a euphemism for he seems to hyperbolize and lie in the way he says just because as we're going to see he's going to say things that just can't possibly be true or they contradict each other and it's almost like whenever he speaks or whenever he describes himself even in the documentaries later on after the conviction he molds into whoever you kind of want him to be that's my impression of reading all these things but all of his self-assessments are inconsistent with each other
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
You guys, that's like five years late. That was rumor in year one. Get with the times. Now the rumor's like, you know, how many times has he stolen my clue award? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
You know, every time you say that, though, I'm like, you're just feeding the rumors because they're like, y'all have seven kids? Yeah. No.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Do I? You do. Well, you guys complimented my hair. My hair looks great.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Well, this is because I have spit up on my shirt, so I had to cover it up before I came in here. You guys, there's a great answer for all of these compliments. Thanks. And my hair hasn't been brushed in a long time, but I'm finally going to get it cut tomorrow.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
No, but I think the natural sheen needs to be washed. Oh, yes.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
I remember one of the things that we consistently hear is people say that, oh, they're conflating, you know, Wiccan or, you know, Wicca and Satanism. He's never mentioned Satan. He's never mentioned like demons. He's only one with the earth. Here in his own words, he's saying that he talks to demons and spirits and that he wants to or does feel like a God.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
By the way, that's exactly what Lucifer said when he took his path to be Satan was he wanted to feel like God or he was God in this world. So that's also misleading because having just watched Paradise Lost, I also was like, oh, he never talks about Satanism that was put on him. Here we have him saying these exact words.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Again, just noting that a lot of the unfair characterizations put on why he was honed in on actually come from his own words.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yes. That's how I know. That's how I measure myself. Well, I'm so thrilled to hear about Alice. Cause like, that's amazing. I'm so impressed with her and everything she does, but I'm so glad she's taking time. She must need to sleep too.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
For those of us from like the city, what does that mean, Fowler? Like just like clumps of dirt?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And now it's 6.30 in the morning and Brandon's parents call the police to report him missing. The police told them to wait, of course, because that happens way too often in these stories.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Because it wasn't, but also right, like what if he didn't want to be found, right? The police are sort of arguing he's a young guy who went off the grid and wants to not be found by his parents. Of course, later that day, they did get the cell phone records. So they did do something. And it showed that Brandon was actually not near Lindh.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
He was near Porter, Minnesota, and that's where he called his parents from. So Porter is right where you'd expect it to be, between Canby and Marshall along Highway 68. A search began around 1230, like now noon, so bright daylight, right? Brandon's Chevrolet Lumina sedan was found about a mile and a half north of Taunton. I'm going to let you, Brett, do your map thing again.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Like, yeah, she's doing everything.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Your visual map is actually very, your verbal map was very helpful. But yeah, okay, so Taunton, let's go back to the map and talk about it. If we were on the triangle that we were talking about, right, that third leg, the hypotenuse, right, would be, that's where Taunton was. So not where he said he was, but where, like, what actually makes sense, right?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
So the amazing thing is that they did get those cell phone records because if they had looked where he said he was, they might never have found that car. But finally, because of the cell phone records, they find the car quite quickly. The search begins at 1230. Brandon's Chevy Lumina sedan is found about a mile and a half north of Taunton. And this is the part that kills you.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
There is no physical damage to the vehicle or evidence of any sort of injury. There's no blood. You know, he didn't hit his head or if he did, it didn't leave any blood or evidence of that. And there didn't look like there's any damage to the car. It was off the side of the field approach. So the vehicle was hung up. This has actually happened to me.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
but it is that thing where like now the wheel is up off the ground so no matter what you do you are not driving it the car works fine but you have got yourself in this ditch where you cannot drive it right now i mean you'll just have to get pulled out of it and then the car would work for it fine it's a sharp incline nothing major but the car would get hung up so the wheels are high off the ground you can't get that's how they reported it to cnn at the time
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Oh, yeah. Hi. Brett, what are your parents' names?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
to and also in the dark you might have tried a three-point turn thinking like get you know okay i'm going the wrong way or whatever and now and now there's nothing you can do i mean that would be so frustrating and i remember i'll tell i'll tell a story from high school so this is before the crazy college years so i'm in the middle of nowhere
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Hi, Mike. Hi, Sue. I love it. Thank you for watching. Thank you for teaching Brett good TV to watch.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah, I think it can be really deceptive. And I also find, especially stuff like that, when you're trying to find the place, it always seems to take a lot longer. And then when you go back home, you're like, oh, now I'm out. It's over. For some reason, now that you've done it once, it's so much easier.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
easier or quicker so i i can totally understand i and have myself been lost and thought boy this is not a great situation so i but you never think you know you never think like It is always a series of decisions that you make that get you into untenable positions, right? It's never like, oh, this is a decision I shouldn't make. You know, you think you're doing the right thing every time.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
So my very first episode, 1993, I was breaking back into my parents' house. So my very first scene on the show, I took a bobby pin out of my hair and picked the lock of Roman and Marlena's house.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
So he was just continually making bad turns and bad decisions that got him worse into trouble than he knew.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah, exactly. It would have been hard, but you could have started a daylight. I mean, maybe who's to say? I mean, it's terrible to guess. But it is true. And I would say, you know, some other podcasts I listen to, they always say, if this ever happens to you, get annoying. Do not let anyone, you know, hang up on, do not let them tell you it's all fine.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
and then he is of course a cop and so he caught me and he pointed a gun at me and i said daddy don't shoot that was my very first line wow that's awesome yeah i promise we're going to talk about the case but what was it like playing a villain Oh, it was the best. Oh my gosh. Are you kidding? That was amazing.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
If you don't think it's fine, you better say, better interrupt, ruin their evening. Sorry, but like, let me know where you are, you know, don't take no for an answer in that situation for sure.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
On the 10-year anniversary of Brandon's disappearance, Yellow Medicine County Sheriff Bill Flatted told the Marshall Independent, it's a huge area. If you take that immediate area where the car was and then the timeframe, because he was walking for so long with his parents on the phone, right? And young athletic kid, I mean, who knows what direction he went, how far he traveled.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
You know, they kept searching. Brian and Annette Swanson sponsored a bill with the House Minority Leader, Marty Scheifert. It's Brandon's law, and it was signed by Minnesota's governor on May 7th, 2009.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And it requires law enforcement to take a missing person's report without delay after notification of someone being missing under dangerous circumstances, no matter the person's age, and immediately conduct a preliminary investigation to determine if the person is missing or if the person is endangered. and promptly notify all other law enforcement agencies of the situation.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And it's funny too, because I had been, so just so you know, I was a huge fan of Days of Our Lives with you, right? Like before I got the job, I watched every day after school. I would record it on my VCR. And if my brothers changed the channel on the TV, it would record the wrong soap and I would get super pissed at them. So, I mean, I definitely had that story.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
So Brett, I will ask you now, I think it's great that they made it a law. I think it's amazing when parents and family can take something like this and try to bring it into a positive. But my understanding was that it isn't actually a thing that like, oh, we can't file a missing persons report for 24 hours. That's just like, that's kind of BS that they make up, right?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Like that's not actually a rule anywhere, right? They just say that to get rid of you.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Well, that makes the most sense. And it should be like, yeah, that is how they should be trained. And I can understand, especially when you read about these cases in smaller places like this, where one sheriff deputy has 100 miles to cover, and there's only a couple of sheriffs. And when you call 911, that goes to a main dispatch in the nearest big town. And
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I mean, there's so many other circumstances that make it difficult for them, especially in smaller towns. I completely understand and sympathize with how hard that must be. But I also imagine that what they don't want to hear is, oh, give it 24 hours, right? At least say something else. We'll put out an APB. We'll say something. We'll do something. I think this law is exactly right.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Initiate a preliminary investigation and then proceed accordingly.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
By the way, not the least of which is if nothing else were true, just the fact that his car broke down and it's cold. I mean, we talked about it at the beginning. It was like, you're like, oh, it's not that cold. It's 39 degrees. That's really cold. That would be really cold for me.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
You know, I mean, like, I think if for no other reason, you know, the fact that he acknowledged his car was broken down is enough to go try to get him, give him assistance, get him a cab, you know, something.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And then I got the audition to play Marlena's daughter. And I was sort of like, who is that? Like, who could that character be? And then I got the job and my first couple of weeks there, I was petrified. I would call all the characters, all the actors by their character's name. And so I was like so nervous. I never told anyone I watched the show for like the longest time.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
well i just have to say right like that was a huge game changer for me if i was on the phone with my son or if i had been drinking and i was trying to hide that i was still let's say i was so drunk that i was intoxicated two hours later a 47 minute phone call there is no way you are getting away with that with your parent there's just no way you could hide that level of intoxication that would lead you to these mistakes
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
for 47 minutes with your dad. Like, I just don't, that was a big change. Like if it was on and off and the service is bad and you're disconnecting and it's a couple of quick calls, I could totally believe that he was drunker than the dad, because the dad has said, sorry, I don't mean to skip ahead, but the dad has said he wasn't drunk. I talked to him and he really did.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
He talked to him for 47 minutes. It's a long time.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And then I was like a huge, like super fan. And so, yeah, it was really cool. And then anyway, so all that being said, I sort of knew, you know, the fun roles are the villains. And when I, my character slowly took this turn to play a villain, it was like, it was just really cool. I loved it. I had so much fun with that character.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I think we have to disregard the whole, they kept trying to call him and the phone kept ringing and then went to voicemail. I don't think it's like our phones now. I think it was, I'm pretty sure it wasn't an iPhone. It was like a Razr or one of those, you know, 2008 phones. And I don't think it's the same technology that we are accustomed to today.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I think he was, the ringing, whether or not it rang instantly, I don't know that that represents whether or not the phone was active. You know what I mean?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
The other thing about that that's frustrating to me is also it probably wasn't great cell reception. So we don't know for sure what that, oh shit. I mean, what if the phone broke? What if the phone got wet? What if, you know, and he was still okay and he could have walked who knows how much longer. It doesn't necessarily say anything about how that ended, you know?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah. I mentioned it already, but it's worth noting again, right? It was May, but that's still really cold. It dropped to as low as 39 degrees Fahrenheit. When he went missing in the middle of the night, it was 46. There wasn't a lot of moon, so it wasn't that bright that night. I think there was a lot of circumstances that made it really... really hard for him once.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And the other thing I was going to say about the dad, if you thought it, nevermind what he said to the police later, if he thought his kid shouldn't be driving, certainly shouldn't be walking. And if your kid's like, Oh, I'm going to walk to the lights. And you think your kid shouldn't be, you'd be like, no, no, stay where you are. Don't do that. Stay in your car.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Like, I feel that if he thought there was something wrong, that his kid was impaired in some way, he would have given him different advice. I think that's part of the heartbreaking thing about this story is as a parent, I mean, this is terrifying story to listen to because of course, if he had thought any of these things were happening, he would have given his kid different advice.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
You know, don't cut through the woods. What are you doing?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah. Another important thing we should note, or I don't know if this is just another sort of red herring in the case or if it matters. Brandon was legally blind in one eye. He wore glasses and he left his glasses in the car.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And also I find I wear glasses also and I see worse at night. Like that's when I need them the most.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
So on True Crime Garage, they also mentioned that the doors were open. Do you think that's weird?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Or maybe they just looked for information.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Was that the one where she slapped me?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah. That was good. That was good. You know, that's such an interesting story and does pull in the true crime conversation that that was during the OJ trial. that aired. And so I don't know if you had this experience, but like, you know, the whole industry changed because of OJ and how they followed that case live.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And I guess if there's not a lot of traffic, even if it is the main thoroughfare, you could buy that like without the cars. Like for me, I'm from California, right? So the ocean, that mountain range, the Santa Monica Mountains are always my navigation. Like that always tells me where west is, you know? And when I'm on the East Coast, I'm always confused because it's on the wrong side.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
So part of me feels like if he didn't have cars on that main thoroughfare telling him which side of the road he's on, if he wasn't seeing that to give him a frame of reference, maybe it's just so dark in the middle of the night. And if there's no one there, maybe it's not lit well enough for him to know which side he's on.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And there's something weird about that too, because again, and maybe this does speak to a little intoxication in that his commitment to like where he was, and then the flashing of the lights, and he's like, there's never a point in his mind where he thinks, maybe I'm not where I'm saying. I would second guess myself like, okay, maybe it's not, you would think that, right?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I think it would be normal to second guess yourself, especially with all these other things. Like how long have you been driving? How could that be? And then when they say they're there and they're flashing their lights and you don't see them and then you're flashing your lights and they don't see you.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I wonder, you know, it does make you think that there must have been some alcohol involved in this story because otherwise you would think to yourself like, okay, this doesn't add up. Let me rethink everything I thought was true. You know?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Every channel all day covered that court case, like, you know, from eight or nine until six or seven at night. So they would air the show at two o'clock in the morning and people had to set their VCRs. And as a result, we lost a huge viewership, which was tragic and terrible.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And he was mad at them, like they're in the wrong place.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And now that you say it, the way you describe that, it sort of makes sense to me also that perhaps if you mostly, if you're very, even if you're super familiar with that territory, but mostly you were driving that highway, you would think, okay, well, I get it. It's that direction or it's about 40 minutes that way. But you haven't done the back roads a lot, probably. Right.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
you know, mostly you take the highway. So it would be a little bit foreign to him, especially because I thought the golf course thing was weird since they're farms. Like, is there a golf course where he thought he was that would make sense? Okay, so he had in his mind landmarks that he thought he was near.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah. And either way, grass is not dirt, right? Like there's no circumstance under which you'd be confused about that.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And also, it was just interesting to be along like part of that whole thing that I'm aware of true crime in that way, how like it was really taking over the country. And that particular episode was such a big deal that they had to air it twice.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Right, right. And then, you know, I mean, I do think it says something that he tries to call his friends first because that says to me, it's not that bad. I'm not in real trouble. I'm just stuck and I'm not hurt. You know what I mean?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Like, I feel like if you thought it was really bad, I mean, like you said, I'm not, and I've never been a 19 year old boy, but I feel like I would call my parents if I was in real trouble. You're like, screw it. I'm just calling my parents. But calling your friends is like, I can get away with this. And that means there's not a scratch, there's not a bruise.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Maybe someone has a truck and they can pull my car out and my parents won't even know the car's messed up. It feels like it just wasn't that bad.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And like I said, I mean, it does seem like a series of small decisions that got him worse and worse in trouble. It isn't one big monumental mistake that you make because you're intoxicated. It's like these tiny little things that get you further and further away from safety. Okay. So what do you think? Let's talk about the theories.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I know how this podcast goes.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
because people missed it and they were so upset that they called they like flooded NBC's lines like that we didn't get to watch it that night something happened and there was like breaking news and it got ruined so they ended up re-airing it a second time because it was such a big deal wow everyone wanted to really see Carrie give it to Sammy so yeah it was well it paid off so you transitioned to playing I guess the heroes in that you have the Hannah Swenson series
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
What do you think? Yeah, I mean, I think that that again, it's the 47 minutes he talked to his dad while he was walking. I think any number of those things with another human make a lot more sense to me if it happened on the road. You know, there's another missing person case with Brandon who a different Brandon Lawson.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And that one, I think, leaves you a lot more like there could be other people involved, a conflict of some kind. But this one, to me, he was talking to his dad for 45 minutes on a walk through the middle of the night. I just don't see how, I mean, the chances of him coming across someone in the middle of the field. seems so unlikely.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I think that then you're tired, then it's dark, and now you are worn out and you could have fallen asleep and he could have been soaking wet. Maybe he was fine from falling in the river, but maybe he got wet and now it's 39 degrees and you're wet and you're trying to keep walking. That could have really taken a toll on someone. I think all of those are more likely than a serial killer.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
It wouldn't help him. Yeah, exactly.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
It's fun because I never got to do that, right? I was always the one that was like, you know, scheming for, you know, a love that wasn't hers and guys who don't want to be with her and doing these terrible things. So now, so normally most actors have the reverse where they play the ingenue, they play a hero and then they like, oh, when they get older, they get to play a villain.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah, I think I agree with you. I think that makes the most sense. I sort of wanted to believe that if he kept walking, you know, that would warm himself up. But I think maybe it's at a certain point you become exhausted and maybe the cold sort of affects now it is affecting you mentally. Right. And you're thinking like you're convincing yourself, oh, I could just warm up.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I'll just rest for a little while. And then it and then it gets you.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Well, especially in that kind of terrain too. I would imagine that there's a lot of, what do they call it, with animal interaction that could have made it hard to find him. I don't know how to say that gently, but that could have made it harder to find him.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah. If not, you know, the farming equipment, like if it was still farmland, there would definitely be, you know, things that are tilling the earth and plant. And like, it just, you might never actually get to see how that find him in that.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
No, I love listening to yours. I'm very happy with that. But I would love to come visit once in a while if you guys ever need a guest. I've had a great time. This has been amazing. And I've been reading some of your comments along the way. So thank you to everyone on the chat too. You guys are great.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Oh, these are good questions. Okay, so my favorite Christmas movie of all time. Well, I don't even know. I mean, there are so many great ones. But I guess my lifelong favorite one would have to be A Christmas Story. Solid choice. Yes, thank you. But more recently would be Christmas Vacation. And it's more quotable, if possible, than A Christmas Story, which I can also quote.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And I've had the weird reversal. And it's so fun for me. So I'm never tired of it. I love, I love this. I love working on the Hallmark movies. I love it so much. I can hardly stand it. And it's just fun and different. And then occasionally I get to go back to Days of Our Lives and play Sammy again and cry and fight and scream at someone and curse. And it's just the best of both worlds.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
But Christmas Vacation is really just like piece de resistance of Christmas movies for me. So those are my real life favorites of the Christmas movies. I have been a part of this one. The one that came out this year is called This Time Each Year. And I have to say, this is my favorite Christmas movie I have produced. I'm so proud of it. It was amazing.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And it was this really special thing to be a part of.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Oh yeah. That could be it. Yes.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Okay, well then that's good. That's good. I love the comments. The Muppet Christmas Carol is a great, great add on for the family. And Gremlins, good shout out. Die Hard would have to be, I feel like that's, we've all worked it through our feelings on whether or not Die Hard is a Christmas movie, but it's a classic.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Wait, no, you got to answer.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
This cannot be a real movie. Are you serious?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Oh, the one Lacey did is Hot Frosty. Yeah, for sure.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
admiration for dog part and she is just a living legend like she is just so amazing her whole story i love everything about her so i i want to look into this i love that okay good i love that you're like also a producer you're a developer of content for the hallmark channel yes your first credit i like it i like it i didn't know i was gonna get pitched ideas well you know weren't you always pitched i mean this is what happens right i mean come on
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
I was going to say, if Alice gets trapped in a closet and I have to co-host again, but then I realize her podcasting is in the closet, so maybe that's not the best place to lock her up.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
We'll do a whole family. Oh, everyone's so nice. You guys are so nice. Thank you. I know. I was a little concerned about that concept too. You guys, you have a great... I love all these people on the chat. They're awesome.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
The Prosecutors, except I'm not a prosecutor. I just play one on TV.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Do not think that word means what you think it means. Let's see. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So anyway, well, knock on wood. I hope that, I hope that happens.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
What was my inspiration? So funny. Well, I was so grateful to have such a wonderful conversation with you and darling Alice. And thank you. I can't thank you enough for the inspiration and all the help you guys gave me. Because I will say my husband also fits that role of being a handsome and modest and inspiring part of the justice system. He was a police officer for many years.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Who knows what direction he went, how far he traveled. You know, they, they kept searching. Brian and Annette Swanson sponsored a bill with the house minority leader, Marty Seifert. What's his name? Seifert.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
It is. It's true. It's true. That's the part you can't get past. But anyway, yeah, it was, I wanted to play that role and you guys really, you, you offered me a perfect role model. So thank you.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Yeah. This is a weird, yeah. Real life meets. I played this on TV and now I'm doing it.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
2008 it's hard to believe that was 16 years ago but it was it's been a long time and i was checking out some of the websites about it and you know it's not less hard for the family and it's tough when you have a case that's not resolved like this and we've covered a lot of disappearances and we've had the opportunity to interact with family members and for them
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Okay, let the case begin.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
Unless it jumps out at you, you're not keeping track of what your friends are doing. Unless there's something super noticeable about their behavior that would call it to your attention, it would just be a normal night. I mean, that's the other hard thing about cases like this is for them, it was just a normal party. Nothing stood out.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
We have heard your crazy stories, Brett. You have some great stories.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And they do, just to reiterate what you said, is that they really made it clear that this is all area that he's familiar with. I think we want to note 2008, like, I don't think people were on their phones for GPS, right? We didn't have maps quite the way we do now, like that every kid who's learning to drive now just plugs in an address and never learns where they're going.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
They just look at a map. I think back then it was really like he knew it. He knew where he was going. He had done it a bunch of times, right?
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
So it's interesting that he doesn't jump on Highway 68. Brandon, he doesn't take that route. Instead, he heads down back roads, essentially parallel to the highway. And around 1.15 a.m., on now May 14th, Brandon got his car hung up in a ditch along a gravel road. It's important to note that it's been two hours after he left the party, and it should only have taken him 30 minutes to get home.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
So it's interesting. I mean, certainly would take longer on the back roads, right? But I think it's something that they mentioned on True Crime Garage when I was listening to them talk about it. But obviously, I think we all know that if you're concerned about being pulled over, you might choose to take the back roads instead of a main highway if you've been drinking and you just don't want to...
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
have any confrontations about that so i mean i think there's a lot of reasons that might have happened but however it happened he ends up the wrong way and he's decided to turn around i mean i think we can guess right and he attempted to call his friends for help when he got stuck in the ditch but nobody answered so now it's 1 54 a.m And Brandon calls his parents.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
He calls Brian and Annette Swanson and informs them about a situation and that he needs a ride. And he also makes it clear to them that he's not injured from the accident. He says he's in a ditch between Marshall and Lind and directs his parents there. There were several calls placed between Brandon and his parents between 1.54 and 2.17 a.m.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
How are you doing Alison? I'm fantastic. Thanks for having me.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And during one call, he states very specifically that he's on the left side of the road just off Highway 23. And his dad reports that. Unfortunately, Highway 23 is nowhere near where he was at that time.
The Prosecutors
286. The Disappearance of Brandon Swanson -- One Wrong Step
And it is clear with the multiple calls that he does want his parents' help. He is not giving them fake addresses or locations trying to send them on a wild goose chase. I mean, he is looking for his parents to help him. So his location that he's giving them seems sincere.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
This is somewhat like the Gabby Petito case when she first went missing before she was discovered. And there was this all out search for her at the point where people realized they were likely looking for a body rather than Gabby alive. And what did they do? They found a bunch of objects.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
other bodies that were not gabby that were unrelated to a lot of people said oh my goodness they found eight bodies is it or ten bodies is this a serial killer who dumps in this area they just know it's that when you go digging there are a lot of really interesting things you're gonna find and this includes creepy people as we have seen in this community now this is really difficult because you have to figure out what who are just creepy people on their own
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
who have nothing to do with the case and who are creepy people who maybe you should look a little closer and i agree on this one i don't think he's just a creepy person there's just way too many intersecting lines between what happens to the boys and him especially the fact that i mean who could his alibi be he doesn't seem like he has a really big network if he's collecting pictures of people in a box his
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Alibi is probably my guess. I don't know. I haven't seen this anywhere, but I'm guessing his mom, if he lives with his mom or something along those lines, someone who has an interest in probably covering for him is my best bet. But we can't go back in time and do the investigation for them. This is where the timeline begins. has major flaws that we can't do anything about.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And time has passed by that likely these holes cannot be fixed. And we point them out to you because I don't want to end this with, this is unknowable, but there are some massive holes and massive lines of investigation that we cannot fill in for you now.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
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The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
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The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
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The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Ha ha, Brett. Don't worry, guys. You're listening to this probably months later, but today is April Fool's Day. And you know what?
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
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The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
That's why Homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in-depth information they need to find the right home.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I hope everyone had a chuckle and didn't get mad at some fun, fun chuckles. Did you get any tricks played on you today, Brett? Because I had several tricks played on me.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So continuing their investigation on May 14th, Joni Brown will later tell police that on this day, her friends Jennifer Ashley and Whitney Nix told her at the skating rink, remember that's where everybody hangs out, that a boy named Robert Birch told them, is your head spinning yet? This is a lot of he said, she said. that he and Damien had killed the boys and that they would kill two more girls.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So I think you begin to see the police are really trying to figure out where they need to focus. And this is not uncommon of things that we hear from witnesses, especially ones who want to be helpful. It's not firsthand. It's not secondhand. It's not even really thirdhand.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
But she hears from the skating rink where the kids all hang out that Robert Birch and Damien had killed the boys and they were going to kill more people. Joni would also claim to have seen Damien, Jason, and Jesse enter the skating rink and stay there together until it closed. It's interesting because she's putting those three together right now.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
But Joni later changed her story to say that it was Damien who said he killed the boys, not Robert. Nix told police that she did not hear a confession. So again, this is not firsthand, not even secondhand. It's a little further removed than that.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Although he didn't remember the exact date on the same day, Jason Crosby, who had known all three boys, that being Damien, Jason and Jesse, and had all three spend the night at his house at various times, told police that he was at the skating rink when Jason and Damien showed up together. And they were shortly joined by Jesse, Miss Kelly, along with a girl he did not recognize.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
After skating for a while, Jason joined them at a table they were sitting at. And Damien mentioned that the police were hassling him about the murders, but he did not say he committed the crime. So all we have here really is that Jason knows all three of them, knows all three of them to at least be friendly with each other, hang out as the three.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
But I guess you could say if given the opportunity to confess, he didn't confess it there at the skating rink.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
For those of you who are following, no, we don't do it every year.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So the next day on May 16th, Brandy Wilson tells police that she was at Skate World when Jason and Damien, along with their girlfriends, were there. Now she says she overheard Damien talking about what they had done to the three boys and Jason was laughing. Now, okay, Brandy was 12 years old at this time, so take it with a grain of salt.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
But Brandy did describe this as happening on a Friday and said Damien was wearing what she described as a devil sign necklace. And in fact, Damien and Jason were at Skate World on Friday, May 7th. And Damien had gone to the mall earlier that day with Chris Luttrell. He would later tell police, remember, that he purchased that pentagram pendant at the mall on May 8th.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Exactly. You got to figure out there's no rhyme or rhythm when you're least expecting it.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Though this obviously could be Damien misremembering the exact date or alternatively intentionally delaying the date of the purchase. But... I want to go back to the skate world and Brandy overhearing. So she is young. She's 12, although old enough to be Damien's girlfriend or one of his many girlfriends. Not that she is. Just he likes young girls.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Those of you who grew up in the 80s and 90s, if you ever went to a skate park, which I had spent time at, they're loud. There's music playing. You have like disco balls and there's music and there's obviously people talking and there's the sound of skates and everything. So she's not saying that she's part of this conversation. She's saying she overhears it. Now, I'm just gonna play this out.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
It very well may be that she heard exactly what she heard and they were laughing about how they murdered the boys. That's very possible. It's also possible that they are talking about the murders and laughing about how the boys died because... Honestly, Damien is, he likes to push people's buttons, right?
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I can see boys, 18 year olds, 17 year olds, basically being, you know, a bunch of hotshots talking about the biggest gossip in town or something like that and laughing about it. So take it all with a grain of salt because she's 12 and she's overhearing this at the skate park. But we also know of Damien to say explosive things.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
You have to do it. You have to do it. So we've been planning this for a very long time. But we are not so cruel as to have made the entire case a hoax, as some were afraid we'd done. We had not gotten all of Patreon in on fooling you guys. We are still doing this case. It's probably 2028 by this point, and we're still doing the case, so...
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And I think it's very possible that she may have heard exactly what she's reporting, but it may not be exactly what's being said, if that makes sense.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Here's the thing then. So I wonder if the conversation was something more innocuous than what it is now reported. I wonder if it were more, I saw them together and I overheard them talking and they were laughing. Honestly, I would remember going to the police with my 12-year-old daughter, but it has been a long time. And if it were just something as, did you see them together? I saw them together.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So I wonder if it was something more innocuous than what it has turned out to be now. I don't know. That's really interesting that she would not remember something like this.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And I will say it's easier to read than I can imagine it would be to listen because we can hone in on the parts that are like, oh, this is an important line. But having been in these types of interviews where the witness is just swirling around like what's really important, not on purpose because she's 12 and because she wasn't part of the conversation. She's only overhearing. I can imagine.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Her mom, her mom hears because her mom hears her talk all the time is like what you were at the skate park and a bunch of guys are giggling. So that's what the mom hears. But what the police here are, they're giggling because and then they impart their own investigation into the words of what Brandy is not saying. That's what I'm thinking may have happened here.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
This is where interpretation really matters a lot. This is why we say go to the sources, right? This is why rule of evidence matters in the court of law, because people tend to interpret or read into statements all the time. not because the police are malicious, because they're thinking about the murders and they may have other knowledge that Brandy doesn't have.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And they may be reading more into this than is actually there. But the fact that Brandy's mom has now heard this twice, the night of, even if she can't remember it, and with Detective Allen, and now, however many years later, she can't remember at all. I think it probably fell more into the, I heard them giggling. It's like, when do you not giggle when you're 12 or 17 or 18?
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
This is a small lesson in a lot of these he said, she said, or I overheard things. We don't have anything that we can like really put our money on yet.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
yet okay so the next day on may 17th in oceanside california far away obviously from west memphis police pick up christopher morgan who's 19 and brian holland who's 20 and they're doing this for the west memphis police now the oceanside police department are told that morgan had lived next door to one of the victims and the two had left town shortly after the murders
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
morgan tells the opd that he didn't actually know any of the boys even though he lived close to them but on this point he was inconsistent he also said he had been to stevie branch's house but only with a friend who knew the family but he also said he'd once driven an ice cream truck and had met all the boys and he knew where they lived in relation to his friend lisa
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So, obviously, the reason they're looking into him is if you're leaving suddenly, it could be suspicious because you may be trying to flee the scene, flee detection, etc. And two things could be happening here. He may really not know those boys despite living next to them. I'm guilty of that. I don't know all of my neighbors very well.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
But the other things he talks about is inconsistent with completely not knowing someone, right? He's like, I met them when I was in an ice cream truck. Doesn't sound like, that sounds kind of creepy when you're investigating a triple homicide. And he says, in fact, I've been to Stevie Branch's house, but not because I was invited or I was there for myself. I was just there with a friend.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Those things can all be true and you can still not know someone very well, but we're trying to understand really to what extent he knew them. And I will say those are kind of inconsistent with completely not knowing someone, especially when you know where all three of them live.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
You basically read that interrogation. I can't follow it. Like, oh, yeah, he's I mean, he confesses and he doesn't confess and it doesn't make sense. And he talks about they and then himself. And then I will say, based on the way that we chit chat. I think a great tactic, if I'm ever interrogated, is just to talk stream of consciousness because no one will be able to figure out what's going on.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And I really can't figure this out. Just like in Brandy's interview as well. A lot of these witnesses, it's like, what is happening? Like people speak in stream of consciousness often. And also in Morgan's case, there's something else going on, obviously, like mentally. There's whether it's extreme duress, stress, anxiety.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
what have you, or guilt, there's obviously a lot going on that is making him very difficult to understand.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So remember, Morgan is picked up along with Holland. So Holland is also questioned, but he's far more calm than Morgan. I don't think it takes a lot to be calmer than what Morgan was worked up to be. And he denied any involvement in the murder. He said he knew the boys were bound.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
He said he indicated by taking his left hand to his left ankle, then his right hand to his right ankle, showing the binding positions, and then changed both hands to the center of his legs, demonstrating someone being tied. So, interestingly enough, as you remember, people often say that the boys were hogtied, but it wasn't hogtied.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
It was this left hand to left foot, right hand to right foot, then bound together. And interestingly, that's how Holland describes them being bound, although I don't think at this point that particular fact of how they were bound was made public. So it goes without saying that the police were very interested in these two characters.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And Detective Gitchell's notes reflect that he believed they knew a lot more than they were telling. He also noted that Brian Holland was the weaker of the two, which is somewhat surprising because He writes, Chris Morgan, quote, seems to be psycho. And he later noted that OPD describes him as crazy and that he was easily set off, as you can tell from this interrogation that he was easily set off.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Now, police believed them both to be gay, which increased their suspicion because obviously that was outside of the mainstream at the time. And we do know that these boys, there were allegations made That they had been violated and certainly there was sexual mutilation. So there's an absolute interest. This is why they've been looking at other suspects who had criminal histories.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
They had abused other children because of the way these boys were treated. This wasn't just like a rage murder. There was much more going on here.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Sure. So last time we left off with Damien coming in and speaking with the police for the first time on May 10th. And there was a lot happening in that interview. A lot of you guys said, why, why follow these leads that he's giving? Okay. So when you get tips, you investigate them. Many tips you can just dispose of, but many of them you do have to follow up on.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Wendy, home of Memphis, Tennessee, would tell the police that she spent the whole day with the two men and that they'd started at the Mississippi River, gone to one of their houses, and then went clubbing at the Red Square in Memphis until 2 or 3 a.m.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Now, this is pretty good of an alibi, so the police do eventually clear them, but they're going to come back up later, as Brett noted, because, I mean... You can see why there's a lot of smoke there and why if I'm the defense, I definitely want to latch onto them as some other guy did it because they're very interesting.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
But this also shows you that those who are, I don't know, mentally predisposed to being pushed over the edge as Morgan was, he's been described by the police as being kind of on the edge and able to be pushed over the edge. You have a bad interrogator or good. Some may call that good if you get a confession out of it, except that I don't.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
think it's a coherent confession you can get a lot of noise and let's say that Holland and Morgan have nothing to do with this case you still have to deal with what they say because it's interesting and it's a lot of noise and it's a lot of smoke certainly but the police have to keep moving on if they don't have more etheric alibis and they're able to be clear they continue to investigate and
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
This is giving you an insight, by the way, into these types of cases. We saw it in real time, sort of, because we were not privy to the entire file, but we saw this with like the Delphi murder investigation. It is very tough work going down all of these investigative leads and coming to dead ends.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And you eventually have to clear someone or leave it open, but you can't leave everything open indefinitely or you never circle in onto the truth. So I note this because there are a lot of interesting characters in this case. There are a lot of interesting characters in all investigations.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And we're naming all of them to show what the police did, but also because, of course, we're trying to make sure that we have the right people in mind here.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And if you missed our last episode, you should really go listen to the report on his interview because there is a lot of information that he is telling to the police that really do require follow up. And in fact, the police do follow up. But that's not the only lead they look into. They're looking down every single lead possible.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
All of these people are pointing fingers at each other, by the way. And it's interesting to see what relationship they have within each other as well. But on that same day, May 27th, Aaron Hutchinson's mom, Vicky, brings him into the police station where he tells the cops a rather unbelievable story about a number of men who haunted the Robin Hood woods.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And he thought maybe these men could have killed the boys. All right, guys, I know that I host a true crime podcast, but you also know if you've listened to me at all, how scared I get about the cases that we cover. And so it's no surprise that after we stop recording, I can't go to sleep at night.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I think about true crime all night and I get scared and no sleep is not a good recipe for being able to function the next day. day. Enter Beam's Dream Powder because when it comes to solving the case of your sleepless nights, Dream is a lifesaver. When I found Dream, everything changed. I started sleeping through the night without tossing and turning, and I woke up energized, not groggy.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
This is one of the most horrific things that could have happened to this town. So the next day on May 11th, the police look into another suspect. This one is Chris Wall. Pam Hobbs had mentioned him as a 19-year-old who lived on the corner of East Baldwin and Goodwin. And she said that he liked to hang out with younger kids.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
It's been a game changer for me. And Dream is made with a powerful blend of all natural ingredients, reishi, magnesium, L-theanine, apigenin, and melatonin. It's designed to help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling amazing. And unlike other sleep aids, there's no next day grogginess, just great, restful sleep.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Guys, once the temps started rising, I realized I was back in the same worn out rotation. Same tank top, same shorts, same everything. So I gave my daily uniform an upgrade with quints. Their pieces are easy, elevated, and somehow make me feel more put together without even trying. like 100% European linen shorts and dresses from $30.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
They also have incredible luxe swimwear, Italian leather platform sandals, and so much more. The best part? Everything with Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middleman, Quince gives you luxury without the markup. And guys, I have tried these things all for myself. Quince is now my go to brand.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I can look professional, be relaxed and know I have high quality clothes at all times.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Wall is given the same barrage of questions as Damien Echols was, and he's also given a polygraph test, as are many people in this case, as you'll see. Now, Wall passes the polygraph test, and he seems to have an alibi, and so the police eliminate him as a suspect.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
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The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Now, Aaron's story is wild and it gets wilder each time he speaks to the police. And we'll talk about what he says in more detail later. But at the time, Vicki is telling police that she began her own investigation into the murders, which brought her into contact with Damien Echols through her friend, Jesse Miskelley.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
note she's not just saying i have information she's saying i'm investigating this basically like alongside you guys and her connection is jesse miss kelly so she tells police that jesse and damien took her to an spot some distance from west memphis and the police will plant a recording device in her home because she basically says put me in coach i'm gonna be undercover for you guys and they take her up on it and she's basically wants to like lure damien into a confession
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So they give her this recording device in her home. She gets Damien to come over to her house and she does this by basically putting out a bunch of books on witchcraft on her coffee table to, I guess, lure him in to attract him.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
That she got from the library, she didn't even buy. So there's like, there's like the barcode. This is like, I don't know if you're in a white van and like trying to offer candy to kids, I guess. She's like, he likes the occult. I want him to talk about how the occult made him do this. So she puts these library books of witchcraft on her, you know, living room table. And has Damien come over?
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And I guess the plan was to see if he would confess to her. But the recording picks up nothing but noise in the room. So this is not your typical undercover, shall I say? Typically we have like people go undercover to do a drug buy, not so much a witchcraft confession. So Vicky is an interesting person that we will obviously talk more about, a lot more about later.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
But we mention this because you see, this is not honing in on one person, but rather they really are going down multiple leads and they treat them all the same. Same set of questions, same polygraph tactic, shall we say. But as we've said also, these police, they really do put a lot of stock into polygraph.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
There are more interesting characters who are going to enter this investigation. Fast forward to June 2nd. A report is made of an incident in which Aaron Hutchinson is shown a photo spread of suspects to see if he recognizes any of them. The photos are of Frankie Knight, Jerry Nierns, Murray Ferris, L.G. Hollingsworth, Tracy Laxton, James Martin, and Michael Letter.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
None of the West Memphis three who are convicted are listed as in the lineup. However, the transcript from the May 27th interview includes a time when a lineup is shown to Aaron and the names aren't given in the transcript, but they appear to be numbered one through 10. Seven names are listed above that I just said.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So it's unclear who the other three are, though it is possible that it is the West Memphis Three. So that night, Jesse spends the night at Vicki Hutchinson's home. Again, I had to like look back on all the ages. Like why is... This teenager spending the night at like a woman's house who has an eight-year-old child.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And the fact that Wall seems to have an alibi and passes the polygraph, they pretty much say, okay, this is a dead end here.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
But he spends the night there and Vicky told him she had a prowler the night before and she was afraid, which is why she asked Jesse to stay the night with her to provide protection.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
As he should. If you are the last person to see anyone who disappears and it ultimately is murdered, you will absolutely be a suspect. So it was correct of them to look into him. But again, Damien Echols and Chris Wall aren't the only ones they're looking into.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I don't think you have two governors, so there you go. You can sign with the right hand, and I'll just wave with the left.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
You can answer for yourself, but I think I know what you're going to say. So our friends are our friends because they're nice people. We don't distance ourselves or draw ourselves closer to people because we perceive them to be controversial or powerful. We are friends with people because we like them. So that's number one. So if you are a good person, we like you.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
If you aren't a good person, we probably won't like you. So number one, I don't rank my friends based on the power I perceive I get from them or how much shunning I will get in the public square. Number two, we have never, never tried to be successful. As you can tell, we ramble on and on and we do cases that people like and don't like.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So I would say I truly do this podcast because we have way too many other things. Those of you who are joining us new, we have full-time jobs, so many children between us now and spouses and other life commitments that this is truly fun for me. So I don't do this to pursue, like, to be popular. If anything, it just makes people hate us more.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
On that same day, Billy Newell calls the police to let them know that on the Monday before the murders, he had traded a knife to Jason Baldwin for some shirts. This is street trading, I guess. On May 10th, he got home from work to find that Jason had returned the knife. Now, Billy says he immediately became suspicious that the knife was used in the murder and he called the police.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
But I do this because I get to do something really fun at the end of the day with my best friend.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
probably would i be able to live with myself no because neither would i keep doing it no because then i would like what's the point i literally every minute both of us like current state right now i have a baby monitor while i record and you literally have a newborn sitting you know next to you every minute that i don't spend with my kids better count And this counts.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
It's like this absolutely counts. But it wouldn't count if I did it for any other purpose than that. I truly enjoy thinking critically about these cases, correcting misinformation. And if that's popular or not, like so be it. But at least I can, you know, look at myself and be like, oh, yeah, I read that as it was. And by the way. Both of us, I think, have like lived our whole lives like this.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And this is what you will find. I think we learned this from Taylor Swift. Sometimes for doing the exact same thing, some people will love you. And then the next year, everyone will hate you. But you may be the exact same person. And that's why you cannot live for the masses. Because, I mean, that's not truth and that's not enduring.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
This will be, this is not meant to be like, because the person who asked this question, great question. I think that is a very valid question that a lot of people, not just in podcasting, but in life, think that they have to balance, right? They think they have to choose like who they hang out with or who they associate themselves with. And first of all, that's an exhausting way to live.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So I encourage you not to do that. But also like, I don't know, that seems like an unfun way to do something that should be fun. Right? It's not that we don't care what you think. It's that we take it into account. And one thing that I think a lot of us, I know I'm guilty of this, and this podcast has helped me change. It's okay to have opinions. That's what an opinion is. It's yours.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
One thing to note, this knife, it's not like a kitchen knife. It's an Indian kukri knife. So it's a special type of knife, in other words. It's not just some run-of-the-mill steak knife or kitchen knife or shearing knife, something like that. And I will say, whether he has any other sense of why he suspects this knife was used in the murder or not, remember what's happening.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
It doesn't mean you have to thrust it on someone else. It doesn't mean that anyone who disagrees with you is a moron or stupid or unworthy of having a debate with or having a conversation with. But it is okay to have an opinion and to defend it vigorously. Right. And that is actually at the end of the day, what I think people are most offended about, especially with me. I don't know.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Women can't have opinions. They get really mad when we express opinions forcefully. Sometimes I'm not so sure. My opinion's like, oh, I'm a little lukewarm about this and I'll let you know. But sometimes I'm like, no, I feel very strongly about this. This is wrong or this is right or this is truth or whatnot. And I'll let you know. And we have always committed saying we love disagreement.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
You don't have to agree with us. Maybe you're not critically thinking because I know I'm not right all the time. I think I'm right all the time, but I'm not right all the time.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Stop it. But this is me encouraging, especially ladies. We love to be people pleasers. I fall into this camp. I was afraid to express my opinion. about anything in life for a long time. How many times was I asked, what do you want for dinner? I don't know, whatever you want. No, like if you want steak, have steak. If you don't want steak, don't have it.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So I think a lot of things that I had to overcome that actually our one stars absolutely hate about us, me specifically, is having an opinion.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Yeah, and I'll say it wasn't just podcast Alice. It was Alice in life too, right? It's not having people walk all over you. It's realizing that you have a voice and it's worthy of being heard. And there's a difference between being heard and shoving it down someone's throat. And I think I...
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
had to recognize that those were two different things because our current world and our current media conflates the two. So we think that when someone expresses an opinion vociferously, that means they're beating you over the head with it because guess what? A lot of people, a lot of irresponsible podcasters, a lot of irresponsible media talking heads do that.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
but that is not properly expressing your opinion. And if you wanna be a good lawyer, if you wanna be a good podcaster, if you wanna be a good communicator in your life, you have to be able to differentiate the beating over someone's head with an opinion and forcing them to agree with you
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
versus using your fantastic reasoning to get people to naturally agree with you because you are so winsome and so good in your rational thinking skills. Those are two different things. So having strong opinions does not mean beating someone over the head and forcing them to agree with you. And if you can do the first one well,
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I think that does lead to a happier you because you can express what you really think. But then you don't have to worry about all the things that you were asking about in terms of what you have to balance. So this is like greater than the podcast. This is your life, right?
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
This is now public, right? There was a bulletin that night. This is horrific. Everyone is suspicious of everyone else because... There hasn't been a suspect who's been arrested. Everyone's looking over their shoulders. Am I next? Are the other children in our neighborhood going to be preyed upon by the serial killer? And so everyone is on a heightened alert here.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I mean, can we tell you the secret about the April Fool's episode? We intended to record for 20 minutes and we talked for over an hour. No notes.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
No notes. Someone was like, did you map out where you were going to go with your crazy talk? And I was like, not even a little. But boy, did we have fun.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
If you haven't listened to the April Fool's episode, I listened to it today and I cackled and I knew what I said.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And I still laugh so hard. But here's the fun part. You get to figure out how much of it is true and how much of it is pulling your leg.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Turtles, tortoises, they confuse the heck out of me. They're not amphibians. I know that. They're in the current. They're in the Australian thing in Finding Nemo for forever. They are in the current.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
But two hours doesn't seem that long if you have to go dive so deep to get food. Look at us going. Look at us going. We can do a whole other episode like this, guys.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I hate it so much. I can't even hear you say, innocent woman.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So I'm actually not surprised that he is suspicious of this knife. Whether this knife has anything to do with it, you know, we'll get more into.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
little cards and they're really into money. They like steal my money all the time. And so I wrote this card and it was like, congratulations, you won a hundred dollars. And it's like taped shut and it says open to, you know, open. And so they both opened it and obviously inside it said April Fools.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I think I don't know enough context about what made him suspicious. And oftentimes witnesses are not the best about articulating what causes them to suspect someone for it. And so that's fair. Fair to say he knew Jason and still said, I still I think this had something to do with the murder, whereas there are certainly people in my life.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
I'm not sure you'd fall into the category that I would suspect nothing. I'm not going to lie. But there are people in my life where it would never even enter my mind. Right. So it's fair enough to say that he was someone who knew Jason and it was something to be thought of. But I will also note to play the other side of that coin. Everyone's also on heightened alert.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
And we do often see a lot of tip lines being flooded with false, not false, inaccurate or incorrect tips because people are so heightened. They're like, oh my goodness, what if I'm holding the murder weapon? So keep that in mind.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So the police are hot and heavy in their investigation. That same day, you can see there's a lot going on. This is not a large police department, right? As we can tell from the night of the murders, there's one police officer who's responding to a domestic dispute, to the Bojangles' potential mental situation with a bloody customer, to missing children, to an egging of a house. So you can see that
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
They're doing a lot of work in a short amount of time because obviously there's pressure to figure out what happened. So also on that same day, the police look into Harold Allison since he was known to have abused children. Allison stated that he hadn't been to Arkansas in years and declined to come in for questioning and a polygraph.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
So you can see how they're kind of trying to spread their net as widely as possible. Who could have possibly done this? Who would target eight young children and murder them in such a horrific and sadistic way?
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
Right. And again, this tends to happen when they're out of their league. Very few jurisdictions, by the way, usually have to deal with a triple homicide of this nature. So it's not unusual that they don't know what to do. But you're right about the scattershot approach. And this also shows you that they really are
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
investigating all over the place right not just honing in on one person and here we have yet another example of that so the next day on may 12th the police speak to michael griffin who says that michael and david wren may have killed the boys to get into a cult Now, Griffin mentions Murray Ferris and Chris Luttrell as the leaders of the cult.
The Prosecutors
304. West Memphis 3 Part 6
We've heard of both of these people earlier as this cult. So this is coming back to that same cult that Damien has also mentioned that he's been a part of.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Around one o'clock that day, James Kragic, a fellow KSU student whom Judy briefly dated, reports seeing her in Prentice Hall cafeteria. He said that Judy was sitting with one of her friends, Kevin Greer. So, of course, the police talked to Kevin. Kevin reports he was eating lunch with Judy and another student named Steve. James Kragic approached them and borrowed some coupons from Judy.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
She told him to make sure he pays her back because she would need them before the end of the year. Again, this is noteworthy because so far we have everyone who sees her or talks to her saying that everything seems pretty normal. Again, she's not isolated. She's not eating by herself. She doesn't seem down. In fact, she's sitting amongst friends and having kind of regular conversations.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
somewhat mundane conversations about paying back coupons. And if you were planning to run away, for example, and never use coupons again in the area, you wouldn't care if someone took your coupons and never paid them back. So it's noteworthy that she says, I plan on using them sometime this year, so don't forget to pay me back. That should cut against the whole running off voluntarily.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Right. So later that night, from about 6 to 8 p.m., Judy goes to dinner with her good friend, Robin Chernyovsky. And then the pair eat at Brown Derby. Again, kind of she's seen all day. This is not a situation where we don't know where she is for 12 hours at a time. And this makes sense, right? Sounds like school's about to be out or is out. And so she is amongst friends.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Now, after dinner, Judy and Robin go to Robin's room. And while there, Judy puts on a red wig that Robin owned. She was kind of just fooling around. There's a picture of her wearing this wig. She herself doesn't have curly red hair, but she's like kind of posing, mugging for the camera with this red wig. And the reason this red wig is going to matter is because...
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
This is kind of one of the last times she's seen is with this wig. A short while later, they leave Robin's room and they went to another friend's room, Michelle Morgan's, to hang out for that night.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
That's a nice reminder. That's a nice reminder. And that's as much politics as we'll get into today because I'm sure you'll get inundated with it all day, every day.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
So this kind of goes to her light up a room type of personality that we, you know, has become a trope within true crime. But I remember being in college, just it's an easy, fun night.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
All your friends live within walking distance and like kind of dressing up something silly, especially if it's like, I don't know, I would put on a trench coat and sunglasses just to be like the mysterious Carmen Sandiego. But she was always there to kind of make people feel good. And she was also very social, as you can tell, going from friend to friend's room.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Again, kind of totally normal on a college campus. So around 1120, Judy and Charles head to his room, which is also in Dunbar Hall. At around midnight, this now brings us to May 24th, 1978, but this is all kind of one night of hanging out. John Bocconi stops by Charles Neville's room to return Judy's wig, sunglasses, and trench coat that she had previously taken off.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
They've been on fire. I get so much spam email. I'm like, who's been selling my information?
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
John is supposedly heading to the 7-Eleven, and he reported that, again, Judy was in a good physical and mental condition. So in other words, he didn't report that she seemed sloppy drunk or particularly tired or anxious or anything like that. She seemed like her normal self. On June 1st, police will report that John tells them that Judy came back to his room to pick up the items.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Now, this is a minor discrepancy, but either way, she had them. So just in case you missed that, the discrepancy is... John first says that he came to Charles's room to return these items to Judy. So she has them. And the reason that matters is we don't see the wig, the sunglasses and the trench coat again.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
But about a week later, the police report says that John says, in fact, he didn't go to Charles's room, but Judy came to his room to get the items. The important part is they have them. How important this discrepancy is up for debate.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
A lot of text messages. Yes, this is true.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
So that's not the last of Judy's night that we know of. Judy and Charles spend the next couple of hours hanging out in his room. Though the exact nature of their relationship has not been identified at this point, they were beginning some sort of a romantic relationship.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
At the same time, Matthew Strope, who worked in a residential security at KSU, reported he noticed the lights on in Judy's dorm room. Note that Judy and Charles are in Charles's dorm room hanging out. But given she's a college student in the late seventies, it's hard to measure the importance of this fact. Maybe a friend or one of the residential advisees who lived there went into her room.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
I know in my college dorm room, nobody locked their doors. It was, I mean, we also had an honor system, but like friends had access to our rooms all the time. So having the lights on could mean that they were left on. Someone came in to borrow a jacket for the night, returned something, passing by. Use your bathroom. You know, all the different things. We just don't know.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
And did he see the right light? It's hard to know. Or maybe was it earlier in the night when she was still in her room? So it's not really clear how important this fact is, but we're telling you all these things because there's so little known about the case.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
I literally don't remember if my light is on outside that door right now.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Okay, so one thing that you may notice, there's a lot happening this night, right? Two things stand out to me. First of all, some of you may be thinking, wow, she was really busy that night. She was super social. One thing to note is no one was like, oh, she was particularly busy this night.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
This was, I think, kind of a normal college night, which, man, I miss those days when it was easy to see lots of your friends.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
So it may have been a particularly, you know, fun and interactive night, but no one has been like, you know, she's usually pretty quiet and keeps to herself and likes reading and going to bed at 9 p.m., but this night she, like, made a point to be out there, whether to establish an alibi or to do X, Y, or Z, or she was upset and wanted to be around friends. There's been no reports of that.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
That might be the case, but it seems like This is not an out of ordinary day for her. Eating lunch with friends, interacting with people throughout the day, having dinner with friends, going to friends' dorm rooms throughout the night, many different people's dorm rooms, hanging out with people that she may be starting a romantic relationship with.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
So the first thing is don't judge maybe your typical Tuesday night with this one. I think this is a pretty regular night for her. And second... This is why this case is so mind-boggling to me. She was around so many people, and there were so many points of reference throughout the night, yet she still disappears without a trace.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Or is that better? Because people always say it's nice to escape into... A story that is like kind of separated from all of the craziness that is the world. I know I personally like that. So except these days, instead of listening to any podcast, I just sit in silence. Anyone else? There you go. Small children. Silence is great. Silence is golden, man. Today. But don't put us on silent.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
And 1.30 in the afternoon, so now we're into the broad daylight.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
So essentially, no one sees her since Tuesday night going into Wednesday morning. By Friday, May 26th, Judy's family starts to get really concerned because Judy had not come home and they had not heard from her. And her mom called her several times, but no one ever answered. And there was nothing they could do. So they did what any other worried parents would do.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
I love it. Isn't it amazing? I traveled. By the way, I was just in Kansas City. What a fine city. I really mean that. Yeah. I was there for less than 24 hours, but I showed up at the hotel. Everyone was so nice there. I got on the elevator. Everyone was so nice there. I was there for 24 hours and it was like 24 hours of kindness.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
They drove the hour or so to Kent State to... literally go to her dorm room and try to figure out what was going on they were worried so worried that they were going to take matters into their own hands now they found her makeup and her money and glasses at her apartment and her parents said that judy would never have left for any period of time without her glasses because she needed them
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
So there were other things left there, of course, but those three things in particular, like if you wear makeup every day, I have like a lip gloss that I wear every day in my purse, you know, because it's always with me, for example.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
So you leave these things behind and money, you know, you need money if you want to leave for any extended period of time, especially if you want to start a new life and glasses, which help you see. These are all things that you would leave behind if you were going to come right back. or you would take with you if you came back to your apartment before you left somewhere.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
So they were really concerned to find these things there because it indicates that Judy seems to have gone out that night, not come home, and not planned to not come home.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
at 4 35 p.m that day that friday michelle chabot the resident director of prentice hall reports judy missing to the kent state university police so approximately three days after the last sighting is the first time she's reported missing shortly after she's reported missing to avon lake pd as well
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Judy's hometown this isn't that surprising because we don't know exactly know where she is we thought she was going to go home it's only about an hour away so if you can get more kind of bolos out there the better that's why she's reported missing in both places both where she was last seen and where they thought she was going to go home to um
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Now, the police response was muted initially as it's Memorial Day weekend. There's no indication of foul play. And note that her family doesn't report her missing first. They first drive down to make sure what's going on before the reports come in, which I think is, again, pretty normal. She is a college student. Maybe she just maybe her phone was out of service.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
We don't have cell phones at this time, but. The important thing to note is three days have passed before she's reported missing. And even once she's reported missing, nothing's really done by the police.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Anyways, I was very impressed Kansas city, but I was on my way to Kansas city in the airport and you know, on the plane, put my earbuds in silent, just didn't want anyone to talk to me. I was like, it was noise canceling. It was amazing. I almost missed my flight cause I didn't hear them call. Didn't matter. It was quiet.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
But no, this isn't a complete like dereliction of duty by law enforcement. Sometimes you'll hear that there was no missing persons report officially filed for a week, but that's not exactly true here. Judy is entered as a missing person in the system by law enforcement, by Saturday, May 27th. That is almost four and a half days after she's last seen. But it is an entire week.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
And they don't do nothing. Law enforcement contacts the county jail, hospitals, and the campus health center to see if maybe Judy is there. And there is unfortunately no sign of Judy anywhere you would expect her to be.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
And what we can note from the timeline that police are able to put together is look how many people she talks to and interacts with Tuesday, the last like real day she's interacting with people. There are really essentially no credible sightings of her after Tuesday. Doesn't get lunch with a friend. Does it meet up with a friend to return a wig? Nothing. Because remember, that wig's not hers.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Speaking of Cleveland, not specifically Cleveland, but Ohio, this case actually completely boggled my mind when I started looking into it because there's so little information, but it's riveting because I have no idea.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. So even those words like, I haven't been back to my dorm since Thursday. Where was she Wednesday and Thursday? It's certainly not her normal kind of social patterns to not be seen by a single person. So that brings us to May 31st, 1978. At 1 a.m., a man named John Alexander recalled seeing a young woman matching Judy's description at a bar called The Tavern.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
He said the woman paid her bar tab and left. Now, like we said, all of these sightings are unlikely to be Judy, but it's noteworthy that Judy has been to this bar before. Again, I think you're beginning to see the effects of media getting involved. People want to be helpful. We always say, see something, say something, right? If it's a bad tip, just throw it out.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
And the problem with these tips is they're coming in, but it just, there's nothing other than a stranger seeing a woman at a bar that matches her description. You know, there's nothing else here. There's no scar. There's no car that matches her. So I think this is probably just someone trying to be helpful, but really probably has nothing to do with Judy.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Let me just say, though, trash tips only in the sense that it's probably not going to solve or have to do with Judy. But if you have a tip. Put it in. Let the police figure out what's trash and what's not. I mean, if it has absolutely nothing, like you think you saw Judy and like, you know, Bora Bora the next day, probably not her.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
But we only say trash tip in the sense of we're trying to figure out what happened to Judy. But these tips, I'm glad they're coming in. It means that the word about Judy is getting out. That's the good news about these tips.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
how this happened how someone can essentially disappear into thin air someone who's very connected on a college campus in fact and that i hadn't ever heard of this case that last part is the one that really surprised me because it has all the elements of being splashed across every single news channel but somehow i wouldn't be surprised if you haven't heard it either
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Let's do it. Yes, absolutely.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
We'll do one. That'll be a fun holiday one. Maybe like a Thanksgiving or Christmas. Like, you know, who really wants to listen about murder and mayhem at the holidays? Maybe we'll do some fun Q&As.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
So those of you who haven't heard my answer to my obsession with singularities as a child that has carried over into adulthood, no, my answer probably is like, yeah, that's totally possible. But let me say this. I think this is a good thing. You know how they always say when you grow up, you lose your sense of wonder, childlike wonder, whatever it is, and you become jaded in life.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
That may be true, but I will say being a lawyer, a prosecutor, doing this podcast, learning about stories that I didn't personally investigate or prosecute, so I've gotten to see a wider array of cases throughout the world and time. I think I get my sense of wonder more and more every day.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Like truly, I can't rule out anything anymore, especially when you do these like very thorough investigations. I think we do deep dives and I'm like, surely if you research something to the bone, you've read every scrap of paper, every report on this case, surely there's an answer there somewhere, right?
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
And there are so many cases where I am just left with like nothing rational or part of this case Dimension makes sense. So it must be part of the upside down or some sort of portal into another space. That's my only answer for it. So all to say is thanks to this podcast, I think my sense of wonder and possibility of anything is possible is truly widened. So I don't say that lightly.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Yeah, absolutely. Could be a time continuum.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Okay. I'm totally bought it. Like I would say four years ago, Brett, I was like squarely in the not paranormal world. Maybe it's my like constantly talking to you. Maybe that's what it is actually. I never even thought about that. I thought, you know, whenever I wake up from a dream where something seems so real, it's an alternate universe. I'm like, is this the dream or is that the dream?
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
I've hung out with you too much and it's a good thing.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Oh, what a happy question. I love that. You can go first.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
They really are so funny.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
No, I think I think that's right. Spending time with my kids, but also like more and more the best advice I ever got. And I think it applies to kids, but also you. I just now implement all the parenting tips that people give me on myself if I'm having a bad day. There are three. Maybe there's like you doctors out there. Maybe you can tell me that this is like scientifically based.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
The three things are like if your kid or you are. are melting down, like stuck in a pit of despair, spiraling downwards, out of control. You're like, you know, things are bad. What can you do? Number one, eat a banana outside. This is literally, this has been told to me by multiple different people. It's like, I think it's, you know, being outside takes you out of your element.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
There's sunlight, probably fresh air. Maybe there's something about potassium. I don't know. But so if you're like in a pit of despair right now, walk outside and eat a banana. So that's number one. And it works for my kids. I literally open the door and I'm like, get out, get outside. They're like, what? And I hand them a banana and they think it's the funniest thing ever.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
And then we all start laughing and they eat a banana. Number two, get in a bath, right? Like water. Just again, I think it's the whole changing your elements thing. So like a wonderful, like who doesn't love a good bath bomb? Am I right? Number three is literally getting out in the outdoors. So we live across the street from like, Really, it's just overgrown weeds.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
But this, again, is looking through the eyes of, you know, you choosing your joy is we call it the magic forest. And it's literally just a patch of there's woods, but it's overgrown. And there's probably like, you know, lots of scorpions and stuff in there. But if people are melting down or I'm just having like a tough day, work is like bad.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Maybe, you know, people are yelling at me and I'm like, oh, I just like got to clear my head. We always call it like, let's take a walk to the magic forest, which is literally across the street. It's shorter walk than Judy had to take. And just like stand in the middle of the woods and like look up and kind of just remember that it's okay.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
These trees have been around for a long time, hundreds of years, in fact, and it's all going to be okay. And then, you know, someone makes some sort of fart joke and we all laugh.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Similarly, I now realize that I fall into a category Watching people clean or mow their lawns in like those like condensed videos, you know, where you like speed it up. So like you clean an entire room that took four hours in like 30 seconds or mowing the lawn.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Apparently mowing your lawn in that fashion is like the highest hit per whatever on YouTube. Who knew?
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
And then do you, I don't know if we get targeted with the same mindless videos, but do you get targeted with the like utterly disgusting rugs that have been like in a dumpster and then they like clean it? For like, like it's sped up, but it's like you pressure wash it for like eight hours. It looks like to get like a slightly less disgusting looking rug.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
I get so many of those videos and I watch all of them.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
So basically, this makes so much sense, by the way, why our social media feed is filled with these types of videos. I'm always like, well, who is watching these videos? It's you. It's you and the hydraulic press. It is me. I love the hydraulic press. I've been wondering why our feed has all of these videos.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
I think we've just encouraged everyone to go spend like mindless hours watching these videos, but there's a science behind it. You know why? I think the New York Times did an article about this. Why like mindless games like Candy Crush are actually played by people with very demanding jobs because your brain needs an off trigger.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
high performing brains don't want to sit and do nothing like they still want to do something right which is why these videos that are mindless are like the perfect reprieve for apparently anxiety ridden brains like ours look i i wish the number of times i've like i'm gonna go sit outside and just enjoy the life
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
This is awesome. Well, I hope this has brought a smile to your face. We are still going to come back next time and talk more about Judy.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
So, oh, I forgot to say, okay, sorry, this is like mixing different podcasts, but it's okay. So, I was recording an episode of American Justice yesterday about my, like, one of my best friends from college's great-grandfather or something like that because he was in the mob. Because it was like, make sure you know how to pronounce the last name.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
And I was like, I know how to pronounce his last name. Because I know the mobster's great-granddaughter. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Well, it was... Bragging about your other podcast. Well, I'm not bragging about it. I was just so excited. I was like, I'm recording a true crime podcast about your family member. But it's, like, good because, you know, he's not a victim. He's the perpetrator, but, you know.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
In May of 1978, 22-year-old Judy was a junior at the university and she was just preparing for a fun Memorial Day weekend with friends in New York. But this was a trip she would never get to go on because on May 24th, Judy vanished during a five-minute walk to her dorm room.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
In the nearly 50 years since then, little has been discovered about Judy's disappearance and little is known about that five-minute walk, what may have happened during that time. There are many reasons why this case has gone cold, but many point to the university's reluctance to react initially to Judy's disappearance as kind of the main reason that so little is known still 50 years later.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
They claim it was because they believed Judy had gone off voluntarily, but many speculate this is more likely the result of the university looking to avoid a PR nightmare coming off the back of the 1970 Kent State shootings that Brett just mentioned. Regardless of the cause, Judy's family has spent nearly half a century looking for answers.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
And unfortunately, this won't be the first or the last case we see where some institution, usually a college, is going to want to avoid some sort of PR nightmare and doesn't act quickly enough. I understand we're dealing with a population that is kind of newly independent, right? Like you have young adults. who have just barely become adults, who have a lot of freedoms.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
They usually live by themselves for the first time. They have their own cars. They have credit cards or money. And many kids are going off for the weekends like Judy was planning to do. So I understand maybe the initial reaction of, oh, there's nothing wrong. She's not really missing. She's just gone off somewhere.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Except when you find out more about the case, and this was not some troubled Judy who was a recluse who wasn't in contact with people. This was a woman who was very enmeshed in her community and her family, was just coming from a party, and was going to her dorm room where she lived by herself. But that five-minute period forever changed everyone who knew Judy's life.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
And I'm not going to lie, I almost choked a little bit when I heard that 1978 was almost 50 years ago. That makes me not feel young. I'll say that much. But there is always hope. With Asia Degree, we thought that case was stone cold. There are developments now.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Hopefully by talking about this, there are witnesses still alive, very well alive, who may know something and they may not know they know something. Especially because this case just, it gets so little publicity that maybe if you listen to this or know someone who lived in the area around then, make them aware of this case.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Because as we dive into the timeline, you'll see just how mysterious this entire event is.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
Hey Brett. That's an English word. So congratulations. You've gone back to the English language and thanks. I feel anything but bodacious. Brett just looked at my face and he was like, are you okay? And I was like, this is how I always look. I'm just tired.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
That brings us to Tuesday, May 23rd, 1978. So sometime between noon and 1 p.m., Judy talked to her ex-boyfriend, Jim Young, on the phone. He reported that she did not seem disturbed or upset over anything, just a regular conversation. Now, as Brett mentioned before, they're not dating at this time, but obviously they're still in contact. Jim was on house arrest at this time.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
for shooting some guns while he was drunk. He previously shot himself in the knee at a bar. So that's why they're on a phone call, because he couldn't go anywhere. He was at home. But I think it's also worth noting kind of what he's on house arrest for. It is for shooting guns, but it kind of sounds like a stupid, drunken accident. And he doesn't
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
It's true. Throw some dirt on it.
The Prosecutors
275. The Disappearance of Judy Martins Part 1 of 2 -- Ohio
appeared to be like a violent person because the only person he'd really only shot was himself, probably because he was drunk and not necessarily trying to go after someone.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
That was excellent. I have no idea what language or what that means, but I'm going to take it as fantastic. Fantastic.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
One of the things that was strange about his body was that one crampon was missing. For those of you who don't know what a crampon is, it's literally like a metal claw that you attach to the bottom of your shoe. Imagine like, I don't know, just the outside of an ice skate, basically. And you strap it onto your foot. And this is important because when you are climbing ice,
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
any icy terrain, you have crampons on because that's how your feet dig into the ice to keep you from slipping. And because it's used in slippery terrain, they're usually like leather types of straps that strap onto your shoe tight enough that they don't slip off because you can imagine if they slip off easily, the crampons are of no use. In other words, they typically don't fall off on their own.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Even when you take a hard tumble down a mountain, They're one of the last things you lose if they are properly secured on. That's why the note from his wife specifically mentioned crampons. If you're going to be hiking this, you need crampons.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And the fact that he has one and not the other indicates kind of something that I'm going to say violent, but something kind of catastrophic on the outside that would remove it if he were not the one removing it. Something like a fall. But... It's not consistent with you just trudging along and, oh, there goes my shoe. That's typically not what happens with crampons.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Yeah. And remember, on this trip, they don't find Janet Johnson. Fast forward a few months, February 9th, 1975, 17-year-old Alberto Colombero was climbing Aconcagua with his father, Ernesto, and another man, Guillermo Vieiro. Now, due to an unforeseen storm, probably not unlike the one that Brett had to endure on his Machu Picchu trip,
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Well, thank you. Thank you very much. And good job. That was like, you guys haven't seen this because you have the glories of editing. That only took Brett about 10 minutes to practice his pronunciation. It was great.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
The trio had to abandon their trek to the summit, and they headed back down the mountain via the Polish glacier. So that wasn't their original route, but because of the storm, they had to go this route. Now, Alberto noticed something red to his right, which he initially thought was a tarp, a tent, or some sort of backpack left in the snow.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
But when they went over to check out this red thing, Alberto realized that it was not abandoned gear left by a fellow mountain climber. It was the body of Janet Johnson. She was found face up and her face had blackened from two years of exposure and it was battered in three places. Now, this you may expect because she's been out in the open for a couple of years in the elements.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
It's cold up there. So you can imagine the blackenedness might not be that surprising. But this next part is not necessarily what you would expect if you had found a climber who had just fallen asleep where they were and died of hypothermia.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
you see what they saw on her face was that there was white bone sticking out of her nose and her forehead and her chin and even more gruesomely her skin hung down like a flap and there were blood stains on her face and jacket Certainly not what you would expect if she had fallen into the snow and fallen asleep.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Now, not unlike Cooper, she also had a crampon that was missing from one foot and ropes were tangled around her. Her hands were bare and her light jacket was unzipped. And also like Cooper, they could not find her ice axe. Now, the slope where she was found was shallow, which contradicted Zeller's story that they took a big fall together.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Remember, he had said that they were tied together and all of a sudden they fell and the force of the fall actually separated the two of them. But this isn't where she's found. Like Cooper, she's found in kind of a shallow slope. And there was also a rock sitting on top of Johnson's body. Now, the hikers who found her believed that someone had murdered Johnson and tried to make it look like
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
She fell. Now, these men who were just on their own hike, they weren't properly equipped to bring Janet's body down the mountain. So they dug it out to make it easier for a recovery team to properly remove it later. And when they did this, they noticed a ring on her finger, which they took and passed along to an American hiker they saw on the trail named Alan Steck.
The Prosecutors
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Alan mailed this ring to Janet's sister a couple months later.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
again kind of shows you that i mean this is incredible of them to even take the time to do this and i think kind of shows the climbing community typically what you have in a climbing community right these three men don't know janet johnson but when they see the ring they're not taking it off to pilfer it they're taking it off in hopes that it can be the one part of her body that can go back to her loved ones and so they pass it on to an american who does just that
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
mail it to someone that they don't know. That's the type of camaraderie I think you typically see among the climbing community, which is why if you rewind back to that journalist who interviewed the group at the hotel before they even set off, note at the very beginning, This dynamic for the group seems very off. They seem very segregated from each other.
The Prosecutors
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You're beginning to see why he could pick up on that so quickly when you see the actions of complete strangers to Janet Johnson, who just are fellow climbers.
The Prosecutors
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It does not roll off the tongue on this one. Aconcagua. It's still hurting me. But since we last recorded the first episode, it has been haunting me. I think I've had no fewer than three nightmares about this case because it's haunting. It truly is. And I don't think I will ever hike again in my life.
The Prosecutors
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That's like, again, out of you couldn't write a novel like this, right? As the investigation is getting going, a military coup halts the entire investigation. I'm not saying this is a massive conspiracy to cover up the deaths of Cooper and Johnson.
The Prosecutors
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But what unfortunate timing, because, of course, with the government now no longer the government, there is absolutely no further inquiry into their deaths. And essentially nothing happens. Nothing happens for 50 years, almost 50 years later. Now it's February 2020. A camera was found on the Polish glacier route, and a man named Marcus Calamaro found this camera and brought it down to camp.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And once there, another man, Ulysses Corvallon, recognized the name on the bottom of that camera, Janet Johnson. A photographer, Pablo Betancourt, was also at the camp and he recognized the potential significance of the evidence that may be in the photos on this camera. So he preserved it as best as he could and headed back down the mountain with this new found camera.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Thank goodness, by the way, that these people preserved the camera as opposed to just leave it. A lot of gear is left on the mountainside. So it's incredible, actually, that it was found, that someone recognized the significance of it and brought it down. And they didn't do just that. So Pablo Betancourt contacted the New York Times and Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Cooper maybe was a government agent. Assassins who crossed the nearby Chilean border came for him. You know, people have really speculated wildly because the conditions of their body and the lack of answers leaves this vacuum for conspiracy theories.
The Prosecutors
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And over the years, the surviving members of the expedition have passed away one by one. Remember, except for really one or two of them, they were all already in their 50s at the time of the climb. So with the passage of time, they too have left this earth and taking with them any secrets that the Aconcagua expedition held. And I hate a mystery that doesn't have an answer, Brett.
The Prosecutors
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Well, here, let me give you a little bit. You're not full conspiracy theorist. Like we said, there have been over 100 people who have died on the same path. And their autopsies, many of them have had autopsies done.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And the people who conducted the autopsies on Cooper and Johnson, the ones who see them, we always say, you know, those closest to whatever the report is, you should be listening to them first. The ones who saw with their own eyes, operated on their corpses with their hands, don't believe that this was the accident of the hundreds they've seen. That says a lot. Right.
The Prosecutors
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I don't know how to do autopsies, but they see these types of injuries all the time. And they are not concluding that the hundred other people who've died on the side of this mountain were all due to ice screws and murder on the mountain. So I think there does leave some space for an alternative theory, whether you want to call it conspiracy or not.
The Prosecutors
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I'll join your conspiracy theory with you. The only thing that points away from it is how did they get all their stories together? And Dafoe clearly knew something was up, even though there's only four of the whole group. Remember, much of the group, half of the group had already gone down for different reasons because they got ill, what have you. So only four were on top of that mountain.
The Prosecutors
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But I think the fact that they called this meeting, even though half of the group was not even there to bear witness or to be implicated in whatever horrific event happened up on that mountain. It was so out of the ordinary. They were all climbers, right? Maybe none quite as experienced as Janet, but they were all climbers.
The Prosecutors
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And even they knew something was up, even though half of the group was not up there. So much so that it was so horrific that if it ever came out, even though the other half of the group was not up on the mountain, they could be held somehow liable that Dafoe being the risk averse lawyer, legalist knew that they had to get their story together.
The Prosecutors
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So the fact that they had that meeting, I think really points to they knew something even if nothing was said. And it may have been as simple as you guys shut your mouths. I don't want to hear what you have to say. So we're just going to plot out what happened. Because it's one of those like put your fingers in your ears, la, la, la, la, la.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
I don't actually want to know what happened on that mountain because whatever it was, I know enough about the dynamics and what typically happens on an expedition that nothing good can happen if Zeller opens his mouth. So you're not going to. So the fact that Dafoe, who wasn't even up there, calls this meeting, I think points to the fact that the group knew something was up.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Well, before they even came down the mountain, I think there's a reason that the Argentinian police was already at base camp questioning people so soon when hundreds of people die on this mountain. This happens. People die on these treacherous conditions. And this was a treacherous condition that they were hiking in. And I do think I agree with you. I don't think it was a love triangle.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
I don't think they liked each other. I think there maybe is something that we can draw from Janet Johnson's camera. We know that she was a bit of a loner. Others describe her, at least in diaries, it's described as at the expense of everyone else. She's only thinking about herself to get to the summit. And so already there's some discontent there. The fact that her pictures are also beautiful...
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
and capturing, you know, this is why she climbs, right? The world around her in the 70s, she had come out, she had a tough community. This is where she found beauty. And I think we're seeing a slice of why she loves climbing through her camera.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
But we're also maybe seeing how things were very difficult up there, whether it be the hypoxia, whether it be having to be on the side of the mountain for multiple days in a row when they couldn't reach the summit. She's stopping and taking these photos. That is very... It's for herself, but it's also indicative of her personality.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
That she's going to find this beauty and find the joy of what she's doing, but it's not communal. What she's doing is not communal. I mean, these photos, they're stunning. They're beautiful. But it's not pictures of people... Arms around each other, drinking beers. They're all on the side of the mountain, no beers to be had.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
But I think that is setting her apart from the group and that there's growing discontent for her already. And I do think whoever died first, the other one died because they were a witness to whatever happened. I do think how gruesome Cooper's death was probably indicates that he was 150 yards away from camp. He could send word. It was all going to be over, what, three or four city blocks?
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
We heard that described. They knew how far he was from camp. He was much too close to basically the outside world that would blow the whole thing up. And so he was ended three or four city blocks from camp.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
It's a great point, because remember, two years later, when those three hikers, the 17 year old boy finds her body, what do they do? They take her ring. of sentimental value because this could be them. They could be climbing a mountain. They don't know why she's died. They just know she's dead. What do they do to a complete stranger?
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
They take a sentimental item of value, her ring, to send back to someone they don't even know if they exist. But if they do, they would like to do this for the stranger that they find on the side of the mountain. What do they know about Cooper, his expedition mates? They know he has a diary because he writes in it every night. He writes in it a lot. You look over, you're in a very small base camp.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
You're going to see what other people do. Most of them have diaries. So they know he has a diary and they know it's on him. What could be more sentimental for your surviving wife than the note that she sent to you in the journal that you wrote your last words in? Right?
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
That doesn't take much time to reach down and take the journal back with you if you're like, I'm not equipped with a toboggan to bring his body down. But you can take his journal that you know he has, especially if that's all you can take back. They don't do that. Right.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
That's something that you would at the very least expect, especially when you see two years later, total strangers do something like that for Janet Johnson. Who doesn't love the good things in life? Even though I enjoy a little luxury, it doesn't mean I can always afford it. Until I discovered Quince. Quince is my go-to for luxury essentials at affordable prices.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
I know for me, there have been some incredible mentors in my life who have really helped me think through next steps in both personal and professional decisions. But think about your favorite leaders and mentors and idols. They don't have all the answers, but they do know when to ask questions or seek support from their community.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
So I think there was an interest in making sure whatever happened stayed a mystery. And I think they succeeded. I think this will remain a mystery in the sense that we will not know more information than we know today, likely, because the people who know the real information are gone. And that is very sad for Johnson and Cooper.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
But the one, I guess, small, small solace we have is that their names can still, you know, because of this beautiful article by the New York Times, long form journalism and other stories like this, maybe at least if they have names. Family members who are still alive know that they are not forgotten, that at least two podcasters question the official story that exists out there.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And the other thing is, man, if I'm ever murdered, I really hope the government where I am murdered is not falling. Doesn't collapse. And then the investigation is stalled because of it. So, like, again, I'm not that big of a conspiracy theorist. I don't think that they actually military couped the government to stall this investigation.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
But that would be the ultimate conspiracy theory is Defoe started the coup.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
It's like the best case brief you ever. It's more interesting than any case notes you can find.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
So gotcha moments don't happen if the pre-trial stuff is going as planned because you're not allowed to spring anything on either side. That's what Discovery is for. Obviously, you've heard of Brady obligations. You have to turn over everything. And that's because you don't want...
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
to win in court and there's less justice when there are gotcha moments you want both sides to be fully prepared for what the other side is going to bring and be fully prepared to counter it or not counter it that's how we as a justice system try to get to the truth right it's not a gotcha i prepared better than you it's rather i'm going to show you every move i'm going to do on the chessboard there's going to be no surprises
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And the best that gets to the truth is what ultimately happens. So it is not gamesmanship, but rather chipping away at the block of justice to reach closer and closer to truth. So those Matlock gotcha moments, they're not supposed to happen in court.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
That's brilliant, because, you know, in the first episode, we had said how the mountain was a character in the story. As your experience, the mountain was kind of a character in the story as well. But it sounds like you were not suffering from kind of mental hallucinations due to altitude, which I wonder...
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And by the way, this is absolutely true. So if you go to a good lawyer, whether it's a civil or criminal case, they do what we do, which is project for you what will happen in your case.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
They're going to say, okay, we might get a little bit more information and discovery on this, but this is how I see it playing out for you, which is why a good lawyer, when they know the evidence is stacked against you, actually try to get you a good plea deal and may even try to say, hey, you know what? It's in your best interest to take responsibility and
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Get that additional credit from the government in terms of sentencing and plead guilty now. Or in a civil case, this is just, you know, free legal advice. They tell you, yes, I'll take this case on for you, but I want you to know this is how it's like. I tell my clients this all the time. I'm like, this is the best we can hope for. And it's not a total win. And here's why, why, and why.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
I don't want you on the back end to be surprised. I'm not going to tell you sweet nothings just so that you'll hire me. I want you to know the truth. And that's because we are trained to apply the facts of the law and there are not supposed to be gotcha moments. I'm not always going to know how judge is going to rule. And of course, there's going to be things around the margin.
The Prosecutors
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We always say that trial is a live circus. You never know what's going to come out of someone's mouth. But it's you not knowing what's going to come out of someone's mouth, not how it's going to apply to the law.
The Prosecutors
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how much of what we're going to see today can be attributed to being out of one's mind or being completely in control of your mind and trying to avoid responsibility for a heinous crime.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
All direction from clients, because that's why would you hire a lawyer then? But anyways, these are great questions. Hope you enjoyed this free legal advice. It's not legal advice. This is for entertainment purposes only.
The Prosecutors
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I think that's fine. Nothing. It's just the little squigglies look weird. Like, it's fine. But the sound is fine.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
You know how sometimes if you change the... It's like a graph.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
If you change the metrics. But I think it's fine because it's hitting 12.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
No, it's not that. It's that I have no memory of anything. You're just the best.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Your hair is fantastic. I just can't see it because it's right where it cuts off. There you go. That's amazing. Wow. Best haircut I've ever seen in my life.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
I was going to say, get your story straight much? Okay, I am not a member of a climbing club, but this immediately struck out as strange to me as well. I mean, we're talking about people, some of them are part of this climbing club, but they are all dispersed. So this isn't like they're all part of the same fraternity in the same city.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
This is actually a pretty dispersed across the country climbing club, right? So how do they have this authority, first of all? And does this typically happen in climbing clubs when there is a...
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
death or a mysterious death on a climbing trip to get your story straight because how does that implicate the climbing club who it's just a club right i i can't imagine what liability the club itself may have so i mean i'm curious you seem to love all these climbing things do you know why that may be
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And a month later, in April 1973, Janet Johnson's family held a funeral service at a Minneapolis church, although Johnson's body also hadn't been recovered and her mother was not expecting it back.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Apparently, because remember, Janet was a very seasoned climber, she had given explicit instructions that if anything were to happen to her on the climb, she wanted her body buried at the small cemetery by the Aconcagua Trailhead. So she had never anticipated that this would happen. But if it did, she didn't want her body shipped back.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
So all along, the memorial service in the United States, at least, was going to be without a body. Now, nothing really happens for about half a year. Fast forward to November of 1973, a four person team led by Miguel Alfonso was assembled to recover the bodies. Remember, Alfonso was the guide who was going to take this American group up this particular path.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And he had been up this path successfully one time prior. A National Geographic reporter and photographer named Lauren McIntyre also joined the group to document this expedition. On November 20th, 1973, when they were on this expedition to look for Cooper and Johnson's bodies, Cooper's body was discovered about 150 yards uphill from camp.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And it was described in the New York Times that he was stretched out on relatively flat terrain. His legs extended and crossed. His hands were bare across his abdomen. His jacket was on, but his hood had fallen behind his head. Now, it took days for the teen to maneuver his frozen body down the mountain on a toboggan without damaging his clothes or person.
The Prosecutors
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This is why, by the way, oftentimes in these very treacherous climbs, in these types of conditions, bodies are just left. They're not recovered. now cooper's diary was found with him and inside there were detailed entries about the expedition as well as a note from his wife sandy which read keep roped up and don't forget the crampons as i don't know how i'd replace you
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
You are by far the best husband and loving one and really good dad in the entire world. Such a sad note. Obviously, this is what he carried with him. It's not easy to carry things up the mountain with you, but he kept this note from his wife close to him and it was with him when he died.
The Prosecutors
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Now, the team, though they found Cooper's body and they were able to maneuver it down by toboggan, this team was not able to locate Janet Johnson's body on the same trip.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
So we learned something important that day and it helped us for trial.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
I was about to kind of critique you and be like, well, here they come, the one stars saying you have an aside. That is such a fascinating example of what I think our witnesses are doing and why a really good interrogator does not give signs like that to the witness and doesn't lead them
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
in a way that could ultimately confuse the witness if they do have usable information, but then also are seeking to please because we just as humans want to please and want to help. And so I have definitely seen more junior agents do stuff like that, where they'll be like, oh, So that detail of your story is really interesting.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And they hone in on that detail when the person's like, oh, I didn't really see that much, but you really want to know more. So I'm just going to kind of make stuff up. And we see that happen. Oftentimes I have to take a break and be like, hey, you need to take a step back. Like, let's just let them tell the story. But that horse story, I'm going to use that story forever. That's so fascinating.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And is that even smarter than adding, though? I think it might be.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Wait, isn't it iste? But you can't do it for interesante. Interesante iste. Interesante iste.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Well, let's put it this way. Pablo is more like you and she's describing someone more like me.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Truly. You guys can't really see us because we're sitting down. But if you saw us at CrimeCon, we are pretty opposites.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Rather than the obvious, which is it's not him, right? Right, right.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And here's a really good example where all you as the attorney, all you're supposed to want to do is get the witness to state facts. You make the argument later. Do you hear how on this questioning where he goes wrong is he's essentially trying to make the argument within the cross examination, allowing the witness to be like. Well, let me explain myself.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
All you need to nail down, the person you saw, about your height, how tall are you? 5'4", okay? The person you saw weighed about how much you weigh? Okay, about what, 160? Okay, great. Did the person you see weigh over 200 pounds? No, okay. Did the person you see look about six feet tall? No, okay. Tell me more about the person that you saw. What color was his hair?
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
I don't know, it was a light color. By light colored, can you say whether it is, give me a sheet of paper, and then do gradations? You don't have to say, and all of that is not the person you see in front of you, right? Because our brains want to be like, well, he just changed how he looks. It's been a couple of years. He got fatter. I don't know. He's wearing like platform shoes. Who knows?
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
That's all you do. Then on closing arguments is when you say, this is who Claudia saw. And he already had her saying it's not him. She answered the question the prosecutor asked directly. Do you see him here? No.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Wait. Oh, mine's not in here. Isn't that awesome? I'll show it next time. He also gave me art and it was so nice.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
It was like the only present I got this year that I didn't buy myself. Look, don't feel sorry for me.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Yes, absolutely. OK, you're right. We will get through this today, but that's OK, because this is very interesting. So another person that testified who's very important in this case is Adrian Payen. Now, he believed that the shooting was gang related by members of the Texas syndicate, which was a rival gang. Adrian also testified that he had identified Pablo as the shooter.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
But see, he's clearly mistaken, as he says the same guy he saw earlier that night at the perfect rack with the other men was Pablo. But whatever the case, Pablo could not have been present at that point. If you followed our timeline from last episode, because he has telephone pings driving hundreds of miles away because he is a truck driver.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
So if he's seeing someone earlier in the night, it's impossible based on Pablo's pings that he could have been there. Now, so this makes the wrongful identification argument even stronger. But the defense attorney does another horrible and confusing job of bringing this out.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
It's likely the jury actually missed the significance of Adrian's misidentification and instead thought Adrian had seen Pablo twice that night. And in fact, despite his testimony to the contrary, it doesn't appear that Adrian actually did identify Pablo as the shooter. According to a police officer who testified in a trial, the photo spread was shown to at least four witnesses in the parking lot.
The Prosecutors
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And only Claudia picked out Pablo. And even she said that the shooter just looked like Pablo. You heard her identification earlier. It was not exactly a positive identification.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
If you're doing cross-examination, what you want to do is basically point out the fact that he didn't make the identification at the time, especially if you have the prosecution with Claudia trying to say, oh, at the time she had a better memory of who the shooter was, and so her identification at the time had more weight. He never really identifies at the time.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And he says something that's very key and very good for Pablo, your client, which is that he saw him earlier in the night. Pull out the telephone records. You could not have seen Pablo. There's no way that's the case. So whoever you saw, it wasn't my client, right? And that doesn't really come out here. Now, Payan also testified that the men who beat him up We're not the shooters.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Now, this appears strange at first since it's obviously wrong. But remember the situation. This is a gang shooting. Paean would rather not die. And, you know, just because they're at trial here, the shootings aren't going to stop. And if you're members of your other gangs that are not on trial or not witnesses here.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And in fact, years later, Payan admitted that he lied about seeing Pablo earlier in the night and he lied about the shooters not being the men who beat him up. Totally self-interested. I don't think he was trying to get anyone convicted. He just cared about number one himself. He's like, if I say who it was who shot me, well, dang it.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Like they're going to come after me because they're going to have beef.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
What are you going to do?
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And you can see how you can tell a really compelling story with those facts in closing by the defense, right? Clearly Ron's the guy, I'm being the defense right here.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Clearly Ron's the guy and he's trying to cover it up and pile it all back on Pablo because he knows that the car was seen by a lot of people because it's gold and there were people probably following him and there was a license plate. So he does his best, removes the license plate, gives the car back, trying to clean his hands of everything. That's a great story.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And it sounds incredibly plausible, right? Okay, let's talk about the drive test because a police officer testified that it would take 28 minutes to drive from the trucking company to the pool hall. The prosecution argued that since Pablo's drive log showed him returning at midnight, this was more than enough time for him to get home and get to the pool hall for the shooting.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
But there are some obvious problems with this. Okay, yes, we talked about this before. The drive log does say midnight, but we've also talked about how drive logs, which are written down, are unlikely to be the most accurate timestamps here, and certainly here. Let's say that Pablo did... arrive home at that time.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
First, one must assume that Pablo drove directly from the trucking company to the pool hall. Now, this is obviously possible, but it begs the question whether Pablo would not have stopped by home to change out of whatever he was wearing to go out. He'd been on a long haul drive. He doesn't stop to go to the bathroom. He doesn't go pick up something to eat. He doesn't change his clothes.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Rather, he goes to the trucking company and directly goes to the pool hall when, again, there's no cell phone records there. between him and really anyone at the pool hall to say, come here. How would he know to go there, for example? And another question would be, when did he get in the Cadillac? So did he drive his 18-wheeler to the bar?
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Because that seems to be a very, you know, inconspicuous way to travel. But the bigger issue, Pablo didn't arrive back home until 1 o'clock. So though his drive log says midnight, we actually know that he didn't get home until around 1 based on how far he was away and based on his cell phone pings.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And we also talked about why you may fudge drive records because for some reason he probably needed to finish that load by that day. And so that's probably why it was around number midnight. Now, could Pablo have then made it to the pool hall after he got home at 1? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
But you have to assume that despite having nothing to do with the events of the night before, he essentially shows up just in time for the shooting. And somehow he knows there's a shooting or just has the worst luck in the world.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
I think I'm going to submit a one-star review right now. What is Alice rambling about? Okay, we'll actually cut to the point. This is all going to get cut out of the episode. No, it's not. This is all going to be an episode.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
That's not how I would work. And because here's the thing. They're doing what I think is fine for the defense to do, not because I think they have different standards of ethics is not the right word to use here. But let's say we're flipped. It's that the prosecution, let's say the drive record actually helps the defense and the prosecution presents the accurate information. of the timeline.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And for some reason, the drive record, which they know to be inaccurate, but actually helps the defense, they never introduced that. I think it's perfectly fine for the defense knowing that, you know, cell phone pings are really accurate, but to have a reasonable doubt type of information to bring up during cross-examination, I think that's fine for the defense to do.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
It is not okay because all the defense has to do is poke holes in the prosecution's theory. The prosecution's job is to put forth what they think actually happened, not piece together the best evidence for their theory of the case. It's what the evidence actually says happened. That's why I have a problem with the way they presented it, even though you see how there's like gray lines here.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
That's just not how I litigate, though, the way the prosecution has done here.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
It should really get cut out.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
That's how you weed out people. I am so tired, but this is so joyful, joyful chaos, because I had 17 people at my house for the last week, which was wonderful, but I don't think I've ever been so tired in my life. One of those people was my newborn baby. So he definitely was the main cause of the tiredness. But, you know, anyways, that's my excuse. I don't know what your excuse is.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
I am not. No. Don't say Roll Tide. Probably, yeah.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Okay, what kind of... Yeah, wear orange. I think Birmingham is a really awesome town, and there are some really interesting startups there. I think it's just like any other startup type of interview you're going to have, which is that those types of interviews, they really value creativity, ingenuity. They don't want just a rote person who's checkbox, boring, whatever.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
The reason they're startups is they've taken risks. But I think the special thing about being, say, in Birmingham versus San Francisco or even Austin, which is still the South, but it's a different vibe than Birmingham, is that people do value in getting to know you as well. I think that's interviews across the board, kind of in the Alabama area. So take the time.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
If the conversation goes towards just getting to know you types of things, like talking about where you went to college and sports you played and your cousin who went to Auburn, something like that, go with it. Because I remember doing interviews down south and I'd be like, they never even asked me a single substantive question.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
But it didn't matter because they really wanted to know who I was because you can get a lot of smart people. But do you have the smart person you want to be in the trenches with? And I do think people in the south tend to take the time to want to get to know that. So if you haven't had your interview, go with the flow.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Really try to enjoy the conversation as opposed to just trying to give the right answers.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
I bet I bet you were asked this. I never asked you if you were asked this, but we we both obviously became prosecutors in the same office, but we didn't know the other one was interviewing there. So my interview was, you know, done by the head honcho, the head prosecutor, shall we say. And the only question he asked me, you know, had nothing to do with how many cases I tried.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
which is not zero Reddit. And, you know, like where I went to school, my grades, my favorite class, why I want to be a lawyer. Those are all very typical interview questions. He was quiet the entire interview and he asked one question. And the question he asked was, did you play any sports in high school? High school was like 20 years ago.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And the reason he asked that question, he told me later on after I got the job, was I know you're impressive. That's why I brought you in to interview you. I wasn't going to interview anyone who I didn't think could do the job substantively.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
But I wanted to know if you'd ever played team sports because being a prosecutor is absolutely having to be part of a team and you're head of a team because you have to. oftentimes help lead investigations and direct resources in a certain way to push a prosecution forward. So it actually is a fantastic question, but on the outside may have seemed like a quote unquote waste of time, right?
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
I love forensic accountants. I am so serious. And Brett says.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
They are amazing. Talk about like the coolest detectives ever. Because you follow the money, you will find everything. I took a lot of the money laundering aspects of most of our cases. So I worked a lot with forensic accountants. And even now in the private sector, I work a lot with forensic accountants on fraud cases. I forget the question. I was just going to say how cool your job is.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Yeah, he's great. You guys, he like I don't have favorites, but he's pretty great.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Yeah, right there. Worked with them a lot. And truly, they are actually the ones because we talk about how accurate is a cell phone ping? How accurate is your drive log? When it comes to forensic accounting, it is so precise and you can show everything with paperwork because of the way money travels.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And so it is my favorite witness or expert to have on the stand because you can nail down the facts and it is so hard to wiggle out of it when you have...
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
the facts against the defendant whoever if they're on your side if the facts are on your side it's fantastic because there's really little wiggle room when it comes to forensic accounting and you guys are so good at what you do you can find ways of analyzing the money that i would never understand even though we're looking at the same bank records
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And they're unflappable because, I mean, I think accountants by training are just, you guys are so good at it, but you are unflappable by the theatrics of attorneys because numbers are on your side.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And so even when an attorney is flapping their arms and screaming at you, you're like, well, actually on page 56 of the Wells Fargo bank account ending in 345, you can see right what you're saying is wrong. Yeah. And then the attorney's like, well, darn.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Frankly, I just really actually want to know what happened in this case.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
It needs to be a battle of the experts.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And my favorite, our latest forensic accountant who was on the stand, you know, the defense attorney was flapping and screaming and everything and said, these numbers just don't add up, something like that, you know, something theatrical. And then the best part was like, I think he was like, here, I have a calculator for you. You add it up.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And the forensic accountant was like, I don't need a calculator. It was just like such a smackdown. Like I can do math in my head. Anyways, great question. You have a really awesome job.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
My kids and all my nieces and nephews at 1 a.m. because there was a tornado that ripped through here. You okay? Oh, you can't hear me.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
No, no, no. I just said you can't hear me. I was explaining why I was waking up all these kids at 1 a.m. Oh, it's the tornado. Because of the tornado.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Tornader that came through here. Yeah. Nothing says Christmas like a tornado.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
I think we should be even... We talk too fast? Okay, we'll slow down.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
What else do I have to add? Because remember, I always talk too fast.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Wait, about what? Talking how fast?
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
So the reason this is confusing is because of all the people involved. But actually, it's pretty straightforward, right? This all takes place at a bar. And these things happen pretty frequently. There are fights at bars. People get offended. They want to come and take some revenge. Usually, it does not involve someone getting killed.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
But if you're confused by the names, hopefully that fantastic five minute, actually, it was like a three minute recap helped you. Now let's move on to the investigation because you've heard about this gold car a lot in last episode and you just heard about it now. Obviously, a gold car is a pretty awesome piece of evidence. particularly when you have the license plate.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And that's what we have here. So like we said before, sounds like a pretty simple case, right? Well, the police immediately zoned in on this gold car because there's not that many gold cars out there. And they found that the car was registered to Pablo. Now, the police created a photo array for their prime witness, Claudia.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Remember, Claudia is one of the girlfriends who had called from the bar, basically drawing folks there. And then she's the one who followed the car as well. So you would think that she is going to be your best witness. Now, police asked Claudia if she saw the shooter in the blue shirt. Claudia said yes, and she pointed at the picture of Pablo in the lineup, saying...
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
He looks like him, though Claudia also said that he had lighter hair. Now Claudia suggested that it could have been one of the people involved in the earlier fight. Of course, Pablo wasn't there for that fight. Now despite these issues, the police would state at trial that this was a positive identification. As you can tell from that, that's pretty shy of a positive identification.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And I want to take a step back for a second and talk about these photo arrays. Now, obviously, if you're the police and you have a license plate number and you know it's connected to Pablo, you're going to include Pablo in the photo lineup because that's a huge piece of evidence tying something from the crime to Pablo. So I absolutely agree with Pablo being part of the lineup.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
But it's kind of one of those false choices situations because Claudia definitely saw someone. Now, whether the person she saw is one of the, I don't know, about six or so people is usually what we put in a lineup. Usually it's not many more than that. than like seven or eight because then that gets a little too confusing. Chances are she's like, well, I saw someone.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And when you put pictures in front of someone, they tend to feel the need to select a picture at all, even if it's not the person they saw. Your brain tries to pick the closest thing that you see. And so the fact that Pablo's included in this lineup, not surprising whatsoever. That's good police work.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
But the fact that he's picked, I don't even really think it's a positive pick that he's pointed to says a lot less. Almost never when we show witnesses a photo lineup, do they fail to pick anything. They may do what she did, which is point at someone and say, it kind of looks like this person. I don't know, maybe, kind of, not really.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
But rarely, almost never, do I have the witness say completely, none of those people are the person I saw. That rarely happens. And I think it's because we all tend to want to affirm and our brains want to make the connections. And when we're given choices...
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
In this world, we're kind of living in a rational world where we think, if the choices are given to me, then the person I saw must be one of these pictures, even if you unconsciously think that. So that's just kind of a background on photo arrays.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
It was six. It was six. So usually, this is not surprising, when you have the guy you think it is, you try to pick other people with similar characteristics. So if your guy, your suspect, has a beard, the lineup is supposed to have like... Pretty much a bunch of guys with beards, right?
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Muchas gracias. Thank you. Thank you for calling me interesting. I know it's not your words.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Or if the person is like white, you don't want just one white guy in the photo lineup and five guys who are of other clearly not white ethnicities, right? And mine was just like, it was like blaring. I think the witness was like, he had a beard or he was bald and every other person had a fro.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
Yeah, like there was like five photos with like people with massive fro's and one bald guy. And they're like, I guess it's the bald guy.
The Prosecutors
290. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr. Part 2 of 3
And I was just like, and by the way, the reason you can't do that is you can. That's something you totally would challenge in like cross examination about how good the photo array was, how leading it was, you know, best is to have it not be that way.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
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The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
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The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
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The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
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The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
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The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
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The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
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The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
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The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
And also when we talk about Christopher and the potential for animal predation on the sex organs, this is also interesting here because we have something that has affected the penis here, except his penis is completely attached here. And maybe superficial scratches, you can say, are due to something else.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
But the reason Brett said this had to have been before Stevie was dead is because of the bruising. Again, bruising is caused by blood pumping or stopping the flow of blood pumping. You don't have any of that when your blood has stopped pumping or you're dead. So the next is the autopsy of Michael Moore.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
You know, I'm literally sorry about this. I really yawned as we were starting. Not because you're not the most exciting person I've ever talked to, Brett, or actually very much looking forward to digging into the science of today. But it's been a long day. But that word woke me up. I have no idea what it meant.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Michael, much like Stevie, also had his hands bound to his ankles, but instead of white shoelaces, they were done with black shoelaces. Now, a subsequent autopsy of Michael's head showed that he had multifocal extensive subgaleal contusions and edema. So in other words, also bleeding and swelling of the head.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
There were also multiple skull fractures, just like Stevie suffered as well, which are described as follows. And this is straight from the autopsy report. Situated on the right posterior frontal skull bone was a one and one fourth semi lunar fracture. Situated immediately below this fracture was a similar semi lunar circular fracture measuring two inches.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Below this on the lateral aspect was a one inch fracture. Extending over the temporal scalp were two contiguous fractures. The most superior one measured one and three quarters inch and the intersecting semi lunar inferior one
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
measured one inch in length situated over the midline of the periatal scalp were three semilunar fractures one of which became contiguous with the second with an overall dimension of two inches Inferior to this fracture was a similar semi-lunar fracture measuring one and three quarters inch.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
The fracture involved the right anterior cranial fossa and a three inch fracture extended across the right posterior cranial fossa. The brain was edematous and showed subarachnoid hemorrhage involving the right cerebral hemisphere. There were fractures, contusions involving the right posterior cerebellar hemispheres.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Now, that was a lot, because I think what you can take from this is there were a lot of fractures all over his head, measuring...
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
about the same size that's very important somewhere between one and two inches fractures obviously if you hit hard enough to fracture something there can be spread so what this may indicate is the same device is causing all of these fractures leading them to be very similar in size The other thing you kept hearing me say was the semi-lunar sphere. In other words, something that was curved.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
This is why I think people think something like a hammer, right? A hammer is round, but if you're hitting it, it's usually at an angle. You can see how that may leave like a half circle, half lunar sort of indention. In other words, it sounds like what Michael went through was a severe repeated beating with everything. an object on his head in an absolutely horrendous fashion.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
And he was alive during this because of all of the bleeding and the hemorrhaging and the swelling. And that was incredibly hard to read, not just because of the medical terminology, but because each of those fractures was the raising of an object that came back down onto his head repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
And the reason it was probably repeated is that he was either unable to get away, maybe he was bound by that point, or he was in a posture that he was unable to protect his head. Now, this is also similar to what the autopsy found for Stevie, but there was no sign of rape for Michael.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
But Michael did, and this is devastating, but of course you would expect this based on the incredible amount of fractures he has on his head. He did have defensive wounds on his hands. So it suggests that he was trying to fight off his attacker, protect his head, any of those things, but of course was unable to do so. The finding in his autopsy was multiple injuries with drowning as well.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
So even though he had these horrendous, horrendous fractures all over his head, he was likely alive when put in the water and ultimately died by drowning.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Those of you... I only know because of our Satanic Panic episode. So I learned a lot from the Satanism episode. But I'm not going to say that I knew what tonight was.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
I know this from having children with lip and tongue ties, right?
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
It's like if you flip your tongue up, that skin right there is the frenulum. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
I played it for UIL. And I think we may have placed first in Texas. like decades ago at this point, my orchestra. Is that right? We played Night on Bald Mountain.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
It is a very difficult first violin song to play, which is the part that I played.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Well, look at that. Thank you. Alice has done everything.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
guys father's day gifting is always the same story for me socks grill tools repeat but this year i wanted to do better and i found quince and they made buying a thoughtful gift easy quince has all the pieces dads actually want to wear like organic cotton silk polos european linen beach shorts and comfortable pants that work for everything from weekend hangouts to nice dinners the best part
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
But I will say this about Night on Bald Mountain. Night on Bald Mountain is a really intense song. If you haven't heard it, go listen to it on YouTube or whatever, because it's a fantastic piece of work. But I, you guys at this point, if you don't know me, well, now you're about to get to know me a little more. I am scared of everything.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Everything with quince is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. They do this by working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen. Quince gives you the luxury pieces without the crazy markups. I know I've bought lots of pieces, not only for myself, but for my husband, and he wears all of it.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
He cannot believe that he gets such luxurious goods for a fraction of the price.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
I got scared playing that song like in competition because they like dim the entire stage for the effect. And then we just have our lights on our stands. And it's a really kind of creepy song. Talk about music being able to convey things that you don't need words to do.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
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The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
And I loved it because I was paying so much less for my cell phone bill, but I didn't notice any difference in my coverage being different. This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get your summer savings and shop premium wireless plans at mintmobile.com slash prosecutors. That's mintmobile.com slash prosecutors.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
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The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
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The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
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The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
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The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
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The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
And so I would sit there and like get goosebumps as we were playing Night on Bald Mountain, despite it not being to the backdrop of any sort of Hitchcock movie or anything like that.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
I know that was incredibly hard to hear. One thing to note about how vicious all of these boys were attacked, right? Christopher was very difficult to listen to. And of course, because of the damage done to his face, his ears, his frenulum, and then of course his sex organ that does stand out different from the other boys.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
But what becomes clear for all three is there's not one who is way more beat up than the others. The whole, oh, you accidentally killed one and so you have to kill the others who are witnesses to cover up. All three had fractures to the skull. Again, fractures being very difficult to inflict on a head.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
And another thing to note, while Christopher may have been just barely alive, I think it's worth noting that all three of them, it would have been very difficult based on the injuries they suffered to have had a lot of time between the time that they suffered these cranial injuries before.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
drowning in other words it would be difficult to inflict these head wounds far away load them in a car i think and drive them here while they're still alive and put them in a water and have drowning possible but when you hear how severe their injuries are i mean we'll talk to medical experts later and find out but it sounds like if they were left there even not in the water eventually if they did not get medical help they would have succumbed to their injuries i think it may say something about where the killing happened
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Still remembering how scared I was.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
if transport could have even been possible with the severity of the injuries that they all suffered.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Yeah, so those are the autopsies. Let's get into the testimony because, of course, this had to all be explained to a jury to make sense of what the medical terminology means.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Yeah, that's a really good point because basically we have all the autopsy right there. And one other thing I'll note about whether multiple people could have done it or not, people point to the binding as, well, if you can bind them, then perhaps you can control them. Note what they're being bound with. Whoever did this didn't bring their own bondage materials. This was a...
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
In some ways, you can imagine this was an on-the-fly way of either containing them or to make sure that they didn't float up. You know, if they're more compact, easier to make sure that they're sucked into the mud that we talked about last time to be able to get away. They're using the shoelaces from the shoes. Where were the shoelaces? In the shoes.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Now, if you have shoes with shoelaces, you know how it goes. Even if you have a very short, you know, tongue of the sneaker, it still crisscrosses at least a couple times. And if it's an actual sneaker, you know, it crisscrosses multiple times. The majority of the shoelace is going to be within the shoe, crisscrossed. And yes, of course, you can pull one side and yank out the entire shoelace.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
It is possible, but it is... A more time-consuming bondage material than, say, if you just brought your own rope or you brought your own twine or what have you. Zip ties. You know, there's a reason that, you know, there are jokes about buying zip ties because that's very easy to manipulate and use. Shoelaces. There's at least the taking it out of the shoe and then tying at least two ties per boy.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Six ties total. Six shoes that have to be de-shoelaced. So something to think about as well in terms of timing and what the purpose of tying them is.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Right. Okay, so to the testimony at trial. So Frank Peretti was the associate medical examiner for the state of Arkansas. He's presented in the documentaries as kind of a bit of a rube, just like, honestly, everyone else in the case. They portray... basically everyone in Arkansas as being a Rube.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
But he did receive his medical degree, and then he studied anatomical pathology at Brown University, so hardly a Rube, before beginning his career at the Baltimore Medical Examiner's Office. Peretti testified that Michael Moore was bound with black shoelaces in a hog-tied fashion, right arm to right ankle.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
the injuries to moore's head were consistent with being struck by an object with a broad surface area like a log four inches or so in diameter other wounds were made by an object the size of a broom handle now michael had multiple fractures all over his skull and he had defensive wounds on his hands he also had injuries to his ears and mouth
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
In Peretti's experience, this was consistent with either being forced to perform oral sex or putting a hand over someone's mouth to keep them quiet. The cause of death was multiple injuries with drowning.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
So next he testifies about Christopher Byers. He says that Christopher was bound with one black shoelace and one white shoelace and his right ear was contused and abraded and he had abrasions on his face and lips. And he also testified that there were bite marks on the sides of the cheeks inside the mouth. Now, again, back to the bite marks, especially with the conditions of the bodies.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
He did have black eyes and the base of his skull was fractured like an eggshell. So like shattered. So much so that, as we said from the autopsy, a piece of the skull punched out into the brain. So there was just a hole because the skull had fallen into, you know, your brain is actually in fluid inside your skull.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
And so there's actually space between your skull and your brain where if you are hit so hard. and a piece of your skull can actually break off and essentially float inside of your head. He also had multiple cutting wounds on the anal orifice along with abrasions and lacerations.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
As we said previously, and this is said a lot in terms of the fact that Christopher seemed to have been castrated or was castrated, he had the skin overlaying the shaft of the penis carved off and the scrotal sac and testes were missing. Around the areas are gouging type wounds. And if you watch his testimony, I mean, he demonstrates what that gouging looks like.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
He like stabs his hand in repeated motions to show what those cuts may have been.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
there was bruising on the inside of Christopher's thighs which is consistent with injuries that you normally see in female rape victims because of course graphically to get to the sex organs if you hold someone's legs open in any sort of forceful way it can leave bruising and that's kind of an unnatural place for you to normally get bruising unlike your knees elbows places that you normally fall
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Now, there were wounds and bruising on the backs of Christopher's legs that could have come from being struck by a piece of wood. Imagine trying to take someone's legs out. That's kind of what he testified to behind his legs that could have been consistent with being hit in the back of the legs. Now, unlike the other boys, Christopher did not drown.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
He died from blood loss and his horrendous beatings. now paredes said the injuries to the three boys were fairly consistent across all of them despite byers seeming getting the brunt of it all with wounds to the mouth and ears consistent with forced oral sex or some sort of grabbing around the head and all were beaten severely
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Sure. And as we all know, at the forefront of this case, of course, are Stevie, Michael, and Christopher, these eight-year-old boys themselves. No person should go through what we're about to convey through their cause of death and the autopsy and to not forget that.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
especially with the bruising, and he is the one who did not drown. So he was dead by the time, or close to dead at least, when he went into the water. If it were predation, it wouldn't have caused that bruising because his blood wasn't pumping anymore.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
So that's particularly interesting because he's the only one in the autopsy report where drowning is not the cause of death or one of the causes of death.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
For a lot of reasons, I think sometimes we have to separate just to be able to get through these autopsies, the victim from what we are reading on the page. But when we bring back to the fact that these eight-year-old boys went through something truly horrendous, Before they died, I think it should bring us all to the place of respecting the victims and viewing it from that viewpoint.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
So we will do our best to do so. And I hope you guys know, and I hope we've conveyed this now by episode 10, that it is all about the victims and all of this marching through the record and the testimony and.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
understanding the satanic panic at the time all of this is in an effort to get closer to the truth for the sake of these boys so first let's start with the cause of death because obviously the autopsy is going to talk about lots of things that happened to the boys but may not have necessarily caused their death
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Yeah, this is the first time that I've heard something that would explain the 430, right? Why he'd still be out and not be looked at. And 430, I don't believe, based on the timeline, they were in any danger quite yet. And so, at the very least, danger maybe of being grounded, if not being home. But that's a three-hour difference there that is unaccounted for.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
And that's a great point of, you know, we always say that oftentimes when we have witnesses who lie, it may be for completely self-interested reasons that have nothing to do with the case, just to distance themselves or feelings of guilt or whatnot. But yeah, I don't know. The screen contents is very, very interesting.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
I mean, that's also a possibility, but it feels like he ate the green beans to prove he'd been home like a stamp like, no, I promise I was on that. Look, I normally wouldn't just come home and eat green beans, but I did it. So, you know, I was home.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Initially, Gitchell told the press that the cause of death was trauma to the boys' heads. Now, this was a good guess, though not entirely consistent with their autopsy reports. So an early report from the police stated that a hammer or round object was used to beat the boys in the head.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
No, thanks for sticking with us on these. And, you know, for these boys' loved ones, I'm sorry that you had to learn about these horrendous injuries at trial. What a way to know how your loved ones died.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
But again, the fact that they, at least two of the mothers, found out at trial how their boys died, I think says a lot about what was actually out in the room of Mill and what was actually publicly known at the time. And so that's something to keep in mind as we continue to go through all of this.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
I do like it whenever, you know, on the Apple podcast, they list as a co-host whenever you have a guest on. And whenever it said, like, Nancy Grace is the co-host, I was like, all right, screenshot this. That works.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
You ready? I don't know why I can't find the highlighting. It didn't get removed, did it?
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
I don't know. I now scrolled past it.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
All these terms are really going to test my emotions and my pronunciations.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Whatever was used, and although it appears they were all beaten, it was drowning that killed at least two of them. Now, Pam Hobbs would testify that she was not aware of how the boys died until trial. This is not uncommon for many reasons. We saw this also in the Delphi case, for example.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
That's like a book, whereas we are people.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
This is what happens when we have to read these horrendous autopsies. We lose our minds.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Oftentimes when you do have a horrendous homicide and you're building a case to prosecute the person or the people who are responsible, the cause of death may not be necessary for public consumption, especially because we're talking about young, young children, young minors here. You don't necessarily need that for purposes of an indictment. But of course, at trial, everything comes out.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Now, why this is particularly interesting that Pam Hobbs says that she does not know how the boys died until trial when everything does have to come out in evidence is because it contradicts the assertion that Jesse Miskelley and Damian Echols knew how the boys were killed based on local gossip and rumor. And Pam isn't the only one who said she didn't know how the boys died until trial.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
Melissa Byers would also state that she learned the way the boys were killed during trial. So we have at least two of the mothers saying that these are their own sons and they didn't know how the boys died until trial. Now, why would Jesse and Damien want to say that they knew information about the cause of death based on rumor?
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
because then they can pawn off things they have said that is not in public knowledge to the fact that it's part of the rumor mill. I heard it at the skate park, so on and so forth. It's not because I was actually there.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
I mean, I know those were a lot of medical terms and we will have experts in testimony really explain to you what it is, but essentially why this is not just animal predation for the things that you see. Stevie was beat horrendously in the head and he was hemorrhaging throughout his head.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
that is i mean you hit someone with that much force in the head to completely incapacitate them and to kill right we've all seen at least movies when you go to hit someone going for the head is like going for the jugular for a reason because that's where your brain is And to hit so hard as to cause these fractures.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
And then, of course, the hemorrhaging is devastating to have that amount of force be applied probably pretty early on because of the hemorrhaging.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
And one other thing in, you know, if you follow some of the defense cited commentary that this was something that got out of hand or whatnot, I will say it takes a lot of force to fracture a skull. And for it again to have happened relatively, at least we know that he was injured. alive because of all the hemorrhaging and the bleeding that was happening. His heart was still pumping.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
This was not near the end, right? Because of that, I think that also says something about the attack. If you start out with a blow that can fracture the skull, it's something very different than, oops, I tripped you off your bike. Now I have to cover it up because you've broken your leg or something like that.
The Prosecutors
309. The West Memphis 3 Part 10 -- The Autopsies
So something to think about in terms of how severe these wounds are and when they would have been inflicted in terms of the timeline of what happens to these boys.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
I barely put on a shirt, let's be honest. But who doesn't love the classic movie stars? I mean, even though it was not of my era, I grew up watching Shirley Temple and Natalie Wood, Fred Astaire, all of them. And there's this mystery and aura among old Hollywood. But unfortunately, with the case we're talking about today, there was a tragic end there. to a just seemingly fascinating life.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
or she's unconsciously embellishing because her brain is interpreting what she now in hindsight realizes may have been the case, which is may have been some amount of distress that was not those words, but what it's being interpreted in the post-talk reasoning is, oh, she must've been drowning. This is why we always say direct evidence is so spotty because whether it was intentional or not,
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
embellishing or unconscious embellishing we see this in storytelling all the time this is why we always do follow-up questions in cross-examination right someone says oh my gosh she screamed like someone was attacking her okay well that's like pretty specific what exactly did you hear a high-pitched scream that lasted for five seconds okay that's different that can be interpreted in lots of different ways now post-talk you can look back you now know that she was being attacked and now you're kind of colored by the fact that you know she was being attacked but at the time it could have been a scream of joy
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
You know, elation that she found her friend or her dog. So remember that when you hear someone saying something like this. I don't typically jump to their line, but I do think the brain does a lot of strange things, especially when we now know something tragic happened and she may have heard something, but now her brain's adding more to it.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Well, that scream must have been a cry for help, even if I didn't hear those words, but my brain is now interpreting it as such.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
What I'm thinking about this whole time is like when you're on a boat, they're just like, if anyone's missing for any period of time, I just assume it's hopeless. This is a desperate situation. There are not many places for her to be. If Robert is pretty drunk, you can imagine there are only four people on the boat. You're on a boat. You have nowhere to drive to.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
You know, there's probably no problem typically with imbibing in alcohol, except if someone is now missing.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
at 3 25 finally the coast guard is called and alerted of the situation and as you can imagine it's like rough sailing waters it's pitch black outside very difficult to do a search so a full search for natalie doesn't begin until 6 a.m somewhere between like seven or so hours after it's first reported that natalie cannot be found
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So around 7 or 7.30 a.m., the missing dinghy was located in a cove a mile from the yacht. So very close by. This is not far. It didn't take them long to find the dinghy. And it was empty, but its oars were in place, its engine was in neutral, and its ignition key was in the off position. So take that for what you will. It doesn't appear that it was going. when someone fell out of it.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Seems like it was in the position it would probably be in if it was still tied to the boat, for example. It wasn't probably being used whenever whoever was in the boat, if anyone was in the dinghy, left it.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
It's just the whole thing is... It just seems like there's no place for her to be. She's on the boat or she's off the boat, right? Or she's off the boat. If she's off the boat, you're not going to survive very long. Most people cannot survive very long treading water for that long.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
You know, I can imagine a situation where like if you're on land at home, we see this sometimes where a child's missing and they're like, she's probably in the backyard, probably went next door, probably riding around the block. You can imagine there's like, OK, the child walked off. Let's wait a little bit longer before we call.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
not on a boat they're just better safe than sorry right worst case scenario she's passed out underneath you know some sofa on the boat but thank goodness because what if she had been in the water treading water and she only has like five more minutes to tread before she goes under but not here we have to convince people to call the coast guard that would probably be my first call
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And also it makes sense if a dinghy is not going, that more time is needed for it to get farther away, right? Like if you unhook a dinghy and then you call the Coast Guard and they start searching within 10 to 15 minutes of the dinghy being unhooked, the dinghy is probably not going to be very far away.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
But give it about seven hours, a mile, which is still very close relatively, but now it's a mile away and probably not spottable from the actual yacht. And also, unsurprisingly, we make another devastating find just 30 minutes after the dinghy is found. At 8 a.m., a helicopter is circling the area, part of the search, and they spot a red bubble in the ocean.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Doug Bombard cruised to the nearby Blue Cavern Point to investigate what the helicopter saw. And when he arrived, his heart sank because it was Natalie's lifeless body floating in the water.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
she was wearing a red jacket flannel nightgown and wool socks now officials boarded the splendor to tell natalie's husband robert wagner of her death and he dropped his head and exclaimed she's gone she's gone oh god she's gone
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
and dennis davern hugged wagner and wagner asked dennis to identify the body claiming that he just couldn't do it because he was too overcome with emotion remember there's another person on the boat as well christopher walken walks into this scene and he exclaims oh no oh no
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Now, the three of them are taken by patrol boat to a nearby island, and Davern is the one to identify Natalie's body, while Wagner heads back to his house in Beverly Hills. And when he arrived back in Beverly Hills, he was immediately greeted by Detective Dwayne Rasher of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Now, Wagner is described as like too flustered at this time to provide any useful information, but he did say that the night had been uneventful leading up to Natalie's disappearance.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Detective Rasher flew to the island to speak with Dennis Davern, the captain of the boat, and Davern spoke to another investigator originally, but he refused to talk to Detective Rasher without first speaking to an attorney. So that's interesting. does talk to an investigator, but then some time passes and he refuses to talk to another investigator until he talks to an attorney.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Now, ultimately, Wagner, Christopher Walken, and Dennis Davern all had similar accounts that they told to law enforcement. they all said the night leading up to natalie's disappearance had been uneventful none of them ever heard a woman calling for help it was just a regular night they never could have imagined what was to come
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Gypsy. Brainstorm, Meteor. I mean, you're really, this was back. I don't know if it was like right or wrong, but when movie studios would sign, like you would get signed onto a studio and it'd be like, you're making 12 films this year, you know?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So this red killing coat is really, really interesting, right? So the story we hear from earlier in the night is she goes to her room and gets ready for bed. That's why she's in her nightgown, wool socks. And I don't know her bedtime routine, but most people probably don't go to bed in a coat. You usually go to bed in your pajamas. nightgown.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And so if you're getting changed in your bedroom or where you're going to sleep for the night, there's really no need to put on a coat if you're not going to go outside. But you put on a coat because it is a cold night.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
If you were to step outside to have a conversation, have a smoke, get in a dinghy, I don't know what would bring her to a dinghy when she's already changing for the night to go to bed. So the fact that the coat is so heavy and it's on her when she's found leads me to believe that it was probably not put on her, right?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
She was wearing the coat when she fell into the water because it is too heavy, too cumbersome, if you want to talk about foul play, for someone to put something on her to make her weigh down, in other words. But I don't think that the whole first part of the story that we talked about when we said that everything's in dispute...
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
That her going to her bedroom to get ready for bed and that's all anyone heard for the night until all of a sudden they woke up and she couldn't be found. Seems like the whole story. Because something made her put a coat on in order to go out after she was ready to go to bed. Because if you imagine you're going to have a smoke before going to bed or you're going to... I don't know that she smoked.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
But you were going to do something outside before going to bed. You would probably not change into your nightgown first. You would finish it up. You know, like... If you're on a fire, finish out your cigarette, finish out your cigar, finish out your bourbon before you go change for the night. Usually when you go change for the night, you're done for the night. You're not coming back out.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So this indicates to me that she did leave her room and you typically leave your room. There's only four people on the boat. So did someone see her leave her room? Was there a reason for her to leave her room after she was getting ready for bed? Someone to call her out or some reason for her to take that coat and come back out?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
This jacket is like something that I cannot stop thinking about, partly because it's the killing coat, right? I mean, if she maybe didn't have this coat on, who knows? Who knows what the conditions were? She may have been able to grab onto something and float, even if there was such a delay in calling the Coast Guard.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
She may have been able to float to safety or been able to hang on until someone found her. But why was this coat on? Because that tells, I think, a really important missing part of the story. Who was she talking to? Why was she putting on a coat to come out after she was getting ready for bed?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So on December 3rd, 1981, Natalie is buried at Westwood Memorial Park in Los Angeles, and her funeral was attended by roughly 100 people. There were eulogies by actress Hope Lang, author Thomas Thompson, and actor Roddy McDowell. The honorary pallbearers at the funeral included Laurence Olivier, Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly, Gregory Peck, and Frank Sinatra.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
The honorary pallbearers at the funeral included Laurence Olivier, Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly, Gregory Peck, and Frank Sinatra. I mean, literally the who's who of this golden age of cinema. And I mean, it is a gripping loss because she is returning from kind of her step away from acting. She's still in her prime. She's still beautiful. She's still captivating in every way.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And her life is cut short so suddenly. And seemingly in an accident. On September 1st, 1997, 16 years after Natalie's death, Christopher Walken spoke about the evening in an interview with Playboy. And he said, this is not going to be surprising. It's going to be different than what he said 16 years earlier.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
He said, quote, anybody there saw the logistics of the boat, the night where we were, that it was raining and
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
and would know exactly what happened you hear about things happening to people they slip in the bathtub fall down the stairs step off the curb in london because they think that the cars come the other way and they die you feel you want to die making an effort at something you don't want to die in some unnecessary way What happened that night, only she knows because she was alone.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
She'd gone to bed before us and her room was at the back. A dinghy was bouncing against the side of the boat and I think she went out to move it. There was a ski ramp that was partially in the water. It was slippery. I'd walked on it myself. She had told me she couldn't swim. In fact, they had to cut a swimming scene from Brainstorm. She was probably half asleep and she was wearing a coat.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Now, this statement is consistent with that story that investigators were like, yeah, that's probably what happened. It's interesting because it's like a whole narrative on what could have happened. None of it, like, necessarily rooted in any fact. But it sounds a story. It sounds like a film scene rather than reality. Because the whole point here, right, is I don't know what happened.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
But he said a lot of what may have happened. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
We had to cut a swimming scene. She had a coat on. When I say this is not what he told investigators, what he told investigators was like, nothing out of the ordinary. Don't know anything. But this literally reads like a page out of a movie script. And it's just so interesting to have all of these details that are not supported by the investigation or anything he said at the time either.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Or she knows it's going to bang and they would have moved it ahead of time. This is not the first time they've been on this yacht. This is their yacht. They go on this yacht all the time. This is always her bedroom. You know, like this just seems so, why now? Why today? Why this day? Why is it bothering her this day of all days?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Exactly. I mean, definitely a bombshell. We'll say that much. And definitely some major gaps and holes. It's interesting because those gaps, there's probably something in them for him to be able to tell this whole story. That's what happens when you minimize, right? Like, here's the whole story.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
It doesn't make sense because these gaps are in there and those gaps are there because that's probably my role. I'm not saying he was there, but he probably saw a lot more than he's saying that he did, which is why he can draw these connections of what's happening.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And the reason that at least what Lana is saying rings more true than Davern's, or at least more complete than Davern's version, is remember, we knew that Robert was very drunk. And you can imagine, like, how do you get two other people to lie, right? We know their stories were all the same. At some point, people were like, I need to talk to an attorney. But they got their story straight.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
We've seen this before in other cases, like the Robert Wong case, when three people's stories all aligned, and likely that story is not true. Why would you do that? How can you convince someone to do that? Something that's criminal to lie is if you're really drunk, you didn't mean to kill her.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And you can imagine in any more of a sober state, realizing that if someone's overboard, you can't just leave them there to teach them a lesson. You're not teaching them a lesson. You're probably killing them. Right. But perhaps in that very moment, he wasn't actively didn't have the mens rea to like murder her.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
The effects of his actions ended up that she was dead, but you can imagine him being like, of course I didn't mean to. We were all drunk. We didn't know what was going on. Well, you didn't look for her. You didn't jump in after her. Like, Christopher, you didn't walk away. We all saw her in there. This is just as much your fault as mine. Right.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
You can imagine some sort of like guilt all being together of not doing more when they were probably all similarly drunk in some way because they were all eating together. I don't know the intent, but something like that I can imagine can bind people together to lie and do something illegal.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So January 14th, 2013, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department officially changed Natalie's cause of death from an accidental drowning to, quote, drowning and other undetermined factors. The change stemmed from investigators determination that some of the bruising on her body may have been sustained before she drowned, though coroners couldn't confirm exactly when.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Now, nothing changed about the autopsy. We already knew these bruises existed before. It's not like they exhumed her body and were like, well, these bruises really predated the drowning. I think now that they have other, this is where I think maybe a little bit of the lazy investigating may have come into play.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
They're like, well, now with the story out there, it's pretty bad because that's a lot of bruising. And if there really was a fight aboard, you can imagine grabbing wrists, grabbing faces, a slap. that can cause not traumatic injuries that would cause any sort of a death, but may be indicative of what happened before she ended up in the water.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
On February 1st, 2018, so things are not moving quickly here, the authorities announced in an interview of 48 hours that Robert Wagner is a person of interest in Natalie's death. Only took like, I don't know, 10 years after these revelations are made in order to announce that. In May 2022, though, Robert Wagner was cleared by the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
This is so interesting because... We've always said you don't have to announce. The authorities never have to announce who's a suspect. In fact, most of the time they don't. So to do it so publicly on a show seems very Hollywood-esque, like it's part of a movie. And then for someone to be announced so publicly to be the person of interest, to then be cleared about four years later is –
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Even more curious, like it's not great for law enforcement for them to publicly announce on like a TV show, not even in like a official law enforcement press release, that Robert Wagner is a person of interest. For them to then say in this statement, this was said by Lieutenant Hugo Reynaga, all leads in the Natalie Wood case have been exhausted and the case remains an open, unsolved case.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
If additional leads surface in the future, which have not already been investigated, the case will be reassigned to a detective to investigate the new leads. In other words, they were closing the case. There's not going to be new leads. There were four people on that boat. One is dead. One has now said that they lied. And one was declared a person of interest. There's only so many people.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
But there are just so many unsatisfying holes in that. While my inhibitions may be lowered if I've been drinking, my fears only get heightened. I am more scared of things and I actually overreact. I'm like, I don't know. I definitely don't want to talk about ghosts tonight, Brett. And this is not something that has happened before. Again, she's on this yacht all the time.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
She's familiar with this dinghy. She never operates this dinghy. The dinghy's always tied back there. Her room is always back there. There is nothing unusual about this event. This is not a once in a lifetime event. This isn't a special evening event.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
the thing about this is it feels so rote of her usual life but something extraordinary happens this night which is why it really doesn't feel like an accident to me because she drinks on the boat she sleeps on the boat this is just what she does So she's not in an unfamiliar place where she doesn't know how to operate things, doesn't know that the boat ramp is slippery.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
It is incredibly dark at 11 p.m. at night. This is what she's afraid of, right? She has people who do things for her. Lots of people who do things for her. She doesn't need to be the one to move a dinghy, especially if she can't operate the dinghy herself. What is she going to do? Drag it around to the other side and tie it from a board?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
no you can't do that with a dinghy and so this leads us to the theory that shouldn't be surprising because he was announced as a person of interest that robert wagner was the one who murdered natalie wood so many people believe this theory that Robert murdered Natalie because he was in a jealous rage that evening. Remember, they've had a volatile relationship already. They got married young.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
She was only 18. They divorced. And then they had this whirlwind rekindling of their passion where they get remarried within a couple months of her second divorce. The captain of the ship, Davern, would, years after the incident, change his story, as we've heard, to suggest that Natalie had been flirting with her co-star, Christopher Walken, all weekend.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Remember, she's been essentially a housewife, a stay-at-home mom for almost a decade. after having been a starlet, the Hollywood star of everyone's dreams. And here she is reentering that stardom with Christopher Walken as her co-star in Brainstorm. And it's reported that Robert was furious about this. We keep saying there were just four people on the boat. Christopher Walken was one of them.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Now, the ship's captain even suggested that Walken and Wagner were in a fight over his flirtation with Natalie so that there were heated emotions all around, not just from Robert directed at Natalie, but that there was tension even between Christopher Walken and Robert Wagner. Now, the people who are proponents of this theory point to several factors.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Wagner reportedly lied to police in the initial investigation. He told police that Natalie probably tried to get in the dinghy to go party hopping. Okay, we think this is pretty unlikely for several reasons. While she had a beautiful red coat on, she was in her nightgown, in a flannel nightgown. If she's going to go party hopping, she will be photographed.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
She's probably not going to be in a nightgown and wool socks because you look like you escaped from the mental ward, if that's the case. Number two, Natalie did not know how to operate the dinghy. So how is she going to go party hopping? She's not going to row herself there? Certainly not. How is she going to tie up the boat when she gets to the dock? How can she see? She's in her nightgown.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
She's in for the night. She's not going party hopping. Three, we know that Natalie had a phobia of dark water ever since that fortune teller told her mother that she would die by drowning. And four, we know that Natalie couldn't swim well. This was well known. I don't think she could swim really at all. So why would this be her way of going party hopping?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
According to the ship captain Davern, once it became clear that Natalie was missing, Wagner did not want to make an effort to locate her. Robert and Natalie were reportedly fighting that evening and they did have this troubled relationship. And it may have been your usual Hollywood type of tumult within a relationship, but something more happened that night.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Despite the initial reports by the three alive witnesses on the boat, I don't think it was a regular evening where there was nothing to see. And in fact, Robert would eventually admit that he had in fact been jealous of Natalie and Christopher Walken and had gotten into a fight with Wood about it. He also confirmed that he did smash a wine bottle. Huh, okay.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
We're hearing some consistencies now with Davern's new story. But he claimed to police at the time it was smashed in rough seas. So he wasn't the one who smashed it in anger. It was just the sailing weather was bad. And... the wine bottle was smashed, the passive voice, right?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Wagner claimed, however, that he was primarily in an argument with Christopher Walken and that Natalie was the one who left as that fight between Robert and Christopher Walken escalated. They then continued this argument on the deck and Davern agreed that the argument did spill onto the deck, but claimed that Natalie intervened, leading to a worse argument between the two of them.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
He then put on loud music and the next thing he knew, Natalie was nowhere to be found.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So Natalie's sister, Lana, provided the following theory in her book. She believes that Robert and Natalie, quote, had an alcohol fueled argument that escalated into a physical confrontation and that Robert delivered a blow to the left side of Natalie's face that knocked her unconscious.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
She continues that suddenly panic-stricken when he realized what he'd done, Robert made the fatal decision to put Natalie in the water to avoid being held responsible for what had happened. And when Davern intervened, she believes that Robert sent him to look for Natalie to give himself time to untie the dinghy to make it look like Natalie had tried to get away in a dinghy and fell in the process.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Yeah, I think that's spot on, Brett. I don't think it was premeditated. I think it was rage-filled anger and that he said something along the lines as he probably pushed her or slapped her and she fell over. Leave her. And she's screaming from there. And I think all three of them could have helped her. And that's why they all initially lied.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
I think that's why Christopher Walken so many decades later gives that weird story in Playboy. I mean... If my good friend died on a boat, I couldn't talk so flippantly about it. Like, we all want our deaths to mean something, but sometimes we're stupid and sometimes we slip and fall when we know better and it's just our own damn fault. That's what his story sounds like to me.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And you have to do that when there is some more knowledge and need for emotional and mental distancing to maintain your sanity. And I think it's because all three of them had the opportunity to save them. Whether Robert would have let him or not, right? I can imagine Davrin being like, hey, we should really throw her, you know, a life preserver.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And Robert even pushing him, being like, this is none of your business. I can imagine that. But I think... The reason this story is just now coming out and the reason it's coming out, we've talked about conspiracies all the time. It's really hard to keep this conspiracy, is that all three have direct knowledge. I don't think that Davern has all those holes in his story.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
I think he has direct knowledge of what happened. I think Christopher Walken did not go to his room and see nothing. I think all three know exactly what happened. And because of that, This story is able to come out so many decades later. If any of them didn't see the whole thing, I don't think they would know enough or want to risk enough so many decades later for this truth to eke out.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
But something like this will eat you up inside. And unfortunately, I don't think this was some premeditated, you know, conspiracy for all three of them to murder her and cover it up. Nothing like that. But I think very conscious decisions were made, whether in an alcohol-induced stage or not. But each of them made decisions that ended with her death. And that is a heavy, heavy burden.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And that's probably why it's an open case. And that's probably why charges will never be brought. Because there are likely three people who know what happened. And I don't know that there will be enough for charges to be brought against any of them.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And also, I think they were all aware at least of the decision to let the dinghy go. I think the dinghy had nothing to do with Natalie ending up in the water. She didn't get near that dinghy. She didn't care. Why would Christopher Walken's story to Playboy a decade later talk about the dinghy banging against the boat? How would he know? Was he in Natalie's room? What was happening?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
How the heck would he know what is happening in her room? That dinghy was part of the plan to make it look like it was her fault.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Yeah, especially when the oars aren't moved. It's in neutral. So let's say she made it into the dinghy. What, then she tipped out of it? That makes no sense. How does she untie it?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And it just fell out when she's already on sturdy ground? What does the slippery boat dock have anything to do with it, Christopher Walken? Right. Like, why talk about that? Because clearly it had nothing to do with the boat dock. She didn't slip, untie, then fall into the water. She was just fine on that slippery boat ramp if, in fact, she made it to the dinghy to untie it.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
But you know what happens when you fall trying to get into a dinghy? First of all, it's still tied. But the oars will be amiss. Things will look strange with the dinghy. You'll hear it because the dinghy's loud. You just said it was loud. It was banging against the side of the yacht.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So you give a little too much detail that is a bit unnecessary in that interview that seems to point to trying to convince us of a story that doesn't exist.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Only one type of cheese?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
That's so hard because there's like cooking cheese and then there's snack cheese and there's night cheese.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
This is hard. Okay, this is really hard because I really like to cook with cheese too. And like, I don't eat feta cheese, for example, like by itself. Sometimes I do. But like feta cheese can heighten so many dishes, like roasted cabbage with some feta and roasted pumpkin seeds, like divine, right? But I'm not going to sit there and probably eat a block of feta cheese.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
But then like, if I don't have melted Gouda with my night cheese, what am I going to do? Guys, why would you ask me to choose? I'm very distressed right now.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
I don't like this question at all. I love goat cheese. I do love goat cheese to eat with crackers. So I could eat goat cheese as my night cheese. If you don't know what I'm talking about, there's a great scene by Tina Fey in 30 Rock where she talks about eating her night cheese. That's what I'm talking about. When you just need a little pick me up at night and you eat a little night cheese.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So you could eat goat cheese as night cheese and cook with goat cheese. That's pretty good too. And you can heat it up and you can put it on pizza. Oh my gosh. I don't know. I need something versatile because I eat it on so many things. I'm going to go with goat cheese because you can eat it plain, heated, like on a pizza, and you can cook with it to elevate a dish.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
I don't like this question at all. I'm feeling very panicked right now.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
That's baby. Brittany's favorite food. Shredded mozzarella. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
She doesn't eat anything. She's like monastic. But boy, does she go to town on shredded mozzarella, man.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
I feel very, very anxious thinking about not getting to eat the rest of the cheeses for the rest of my life.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Could we all live in a commune and each pick a different cheese so we can share?
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
No, this is, well, I know we thought this was going to be a multi-parter, but I felt like we needed to wrap it all up for Natalie in one. So you got an extra long episode, but we'd love to hear your thoughts.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
People have asked us to do this case for a very long time and I hadn't looked into it until now, but I question all my, you know, I used to think Christopher Walken was funny, but now I think he's just, my view has changed.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
It's going to rain on Saturday? I hope not. Oh, not. Let me see. Looks like it's just tomorrow, thankfully, which is fine because we have soccer tomorrow, and if soccer gets canceled, it's not the worst thing.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
You are funny. Okay, guys. We'll be back tomorrow.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
You're funny. Oh, don't forget to stop recording.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So Natalie's personal life was just as captivating to the public as her acting roles. She was known to date some of Hollywood's most elite, including Dennis Hopper, Nikki Hilton of the hotel chain, and Elvis Presley. I mean, everything about her captivated the world, right? Her acting skills, her beauty, her love life. She was truly just an embodiment of what we thought a starlet should be.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
But in 1957, her dating days were put to rest when, at 18 years old, Natalie wed 26-year-old Robert Wagner. But their marriage did not last long, and by 1962, the couple was divorced.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
and although star studded as you've heard natalie's life was far from perfect sadly and this is probably something that happened to a lot of actresses back in the day but may not have been reported she was allegedly raped by a co-star when she was only 16 years old but no report was ever made about that rape and those closest to natalie said this event haunted her throughout her life you can imagine why that would be it's one of the most invasive things that can happen to anyone
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And her mental health was a constant struggle, whether due to the traumatic event of sexual assault or just being in the limelight 24-7. Every inch of her was being scrutinized at all times. And those closest to her described her as being always near crisis. And this kind of state of always crisis ends up following her all the way to the grave.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Hi, Brett. That was a very nice descriptor. It's definitely not about me because there's a reason that we have great faces for podcast. That's true.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
And so this period of time, she is living what seems to be the blissful home life. By 1981, Natalie's children are a bit older and she decides to go back to acting. And she was starring in a movie called Brainstorm alongside Christopher Walken.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
In late November 1981, Natalie and Robert were planning one of their many weekends out on their yacht, called the Splendor, to Catalina Island off the coast of California. The pair reportedly invited several friends, but all but one declined due to the poor sailing weather. And the one who came was Christopher Walken, Natalie's co-star.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
He, along with Robert and Natalie, go on this yacht with the boat's captain, Dennis Davern. What was supposed to be a fun, carefree weekend out on the water quickly turned tragic when Natalie went missing. And sadly, this beautiful starlet would never see shore again.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
There's a reason for that. We are not YouTubers. And, you know, like the patrons, what they get are faces made for radio. That's true.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
So at 11 p.m., Marilyn Wayne, who was 80 feet away on another boat, reportedly heard a woman yelling in distress. She says that she and her boyfriend heard this woman shouting, somebody please help me, I'm drowning. And this went on for some time until about 11.30 p.m. And they tried to call the harbor master, but they got no response at the time. And you can imagine it's dark out there.
The Prosecutors
279. The Death of Natalie Wood -- I Want to Be Loved Like That
Are they really hearing what they're hearing? Now, according to their story, the passengers on the yacht realized that Natalie is missing around 1105 and they begin searching for her. And this is the time they also realized the dinghy is missing. Again, can't emphasize enough. All of this is disputed.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
We prosecuted some of those cases. We should do a case about that. It's really interesting.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I like Sir Cox a lot. Sir Cox a lot. That was one of the first cases I worked on when I became a prosecutor, actually. Cockfighting.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I bet you. I bet you. Really? You've never been to a cockfight? I've never been to a cockfight.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
If it was legal. How do we do legal things? Undercover sting for the cock fighting.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
All these agents had to dress like they would be going to a cock fight because they were going to a cock fight, but they had to be undercover. And I've never laughed so hard at our colleagues before. I think one of them literally blacked out his tooth.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And you guys, even if you think you've heard something before, Jason is able to bring out things you never thought about. Just check out these recent episodes. He had an interview with Kimberly Loring, the sister of a 20-year-old missing Montana woman, Ashley Loring Heavenredder, and about her search for her sister, finding faith in God and forgiving those who harmed Ashley.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
You'll have to check out this incredible interview he had about journalists in Minnesota and Iowa who are still advocating for and searching for Jodi Husen Truitt, a broadcast journalist who disappeared in 1995. And then there's this interview with a friend of a domestic violence victim who was murdered in 2023 in Minnesota.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
about what friends can do to be non-judgmental and supportive of those who are facing interpersonal abuse. You guys have got to check out this incredible podcast, Silver Linings Handbook. You can get it wherever you listen to podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You choose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Progressive loves to help people make smart choices. That's why they offer a tool called AutoQuote Explorer that allows you to compare your progressive car insurance quote with rates from other companies. So you save time on the research and can enjoy savings when you choose the best rate for you. Give it a try after this episode at progressive.com.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Oh, God. Oh, God. Sorry.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Oh, I love Finding Nemo. Do you still not let your kids watch TV? We don't watch TV. Wait, can I tell you a really quick story about Nemo, though? Yes. My kids don't watch TV, but they read books, and obviously a lot of these, you know, Disney movies and movies, Pixar movies get turned into books. So we have the finding Nemo book and you know how Nemo is written.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Like it's all wavy, kind of like a sea, whatever, like a wave because it's an oceanic themed movie.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Hey, that's awesome. Do you know what character is in Finding Nemo that I find very interesting? The whale?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yeah. I like the sharks. Did you see that viral clip that just went by? The whale that actually did swallow the kayaker? The 80 guy?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yeah. And then he spit him back out. Yeah, can you imagine? That was crazy. Wait, I'm curious. Why did he spit him back out? Because, well... I know that we don't taste good, but he didn't have time to taste him.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
This is so important. I don't know why you did it. It's not like we haven't done... How many episodes do we have? Hundreds of times to sign in.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I don't know. I believe in my Bible stories. Jonah and the whale.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I mean, but they eat people. They don't swallow you whole.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
That is insane. And my oldest son told me that the other day because I did not know that fact. And somehow you and him should hang out because he was like, what's the largest animal that's ever lived in the world? And I said like the Diplodocus.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Anything. Yeah. One of the dinosaurs with the long tails and the long necks. Surely if you stretch them out, they're longer than a... Nope. Not as big as a blue whale, which is amazing. And they eat like tiny plankton. That's amazing.
The Prosecutors
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I'm sorry. This is not bode well. It doesn't bode well. Do you see how nervous I am? I do. I'm so sorry. Okay, let's start. Let's start again. This cannot be the way we started. Sorry.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
that never been eaten by an animal before i've been bitten by a dog like multiple dogs have you been bitten by your dogs i know oh okay okay we'll get to this real quick but speaking of animals i know that your dog is just very protective is all i really barely ever see your dog because you're nice enough to remove him when i come over has he bit you before
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I actually find that because I've had dogs that are very bite friendly.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Well, the case we're going to cover is not controversial. Not at all. She said hopefully.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You can laugh about how terrible I am. We'll save you a blooper.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
We always talk. We always talk when we're nervous.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Okay. So that's not totally fair. That's not totally fair because my kids know what a TV is. We never turn it on. They have watched things before. They watch sports. No.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I mean, TV's on everywhere. This is why it's really hard to stay away. So, like, when we go to our favorite bar, because we take our kids to a bar, there's always football or basketball on. So, you know, it's there.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay, I'm ready.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
It was Brittany's birthday party at the bar. Let's be honest. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
This is true. It's a great bar. She it's like a second home to her.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yeah. And I have plenty of pictures of my second son sitting at the bar. I couldn't find him. And I was like, where is he? He was sitting at the bar chatting it up with the bartender, by the way. And I was like, you get better service than I do.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yeah, she absolutely could. So no, it's not that... So they've definitely seen things before. We have pulled the like fail safe. We're like, okay, we got to put on a Daniel Tiger because everyone's losing. And oh, here's the thing. When we travel... They can watch all the TV.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I don't know what that is. I don't know what that is. It's awful.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
We really do try to stick with like the Mr. Rogers types and whatnot. And so, no, I would say like in a regular week, seven days a week. What are you talking about? I don't know what you're talking about.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Calou. Okay, let's get started now. Let's get started because I really want to talk about the. Calou is Canadian by the way. I still don't know what you're talking about. Okay.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I don't. Well, I think they have seen an episode before. I think they have seen episodes before, so they know what Bluey is. And I've seen a couple episodes, but we do not. It is not something we watch.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yes. Have I told the story? Have I told the story on the podcast? I don't think you told it on the podcast. I'll tell you my malaria story after that.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Hey, Brett. I am easily distracted. You know what? You know how people are like, you do something so many times in your life, everything becomes rote and it's just boring? That's not my life because apparently I have the memory of a bunny rabbit. I don't know how we sign in. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
We used to do this every summer. I don't know how my parents got me to sit on an 18-hour flight.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And back in the day, those 18 hour flights, especially if you want an Asian airline, the like accoutrements that came with it. Oh, they were great. And I remember this candy cart. There was a candy cart when I was a kid and made those 18 hour trans, you know, Atlantic flights. They would push. I still remember.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
It was like the Bertie Botts Every Flavor Beans from Harry Potter when they would be on the Hogwarts train. Yes. I mean, any candy you wanted, any snack you wanted. And it was just so fun. And you became friends with people on the flight because you had no one else to talk to. It was like life. Yeah, you made life. It was so great.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I have no idea. You were going on a one way trip around the world.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I don't know what it is. They hate the chit chat, the one stars. They hate the chit chat, but you know what? I think we should dive in. I think we should dive in right away because we're probably going to be doing this case for way too long.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I had the psychedelic dreams. They were wasted on me because you could have written about them. I, okay. I don't know if you guys have, so I went to Honduras when I was right after high school. I spent some time there doing, you know, like good, good deeds, whatever you want to call them. Great way to really just fill your body with real parasites. And I came back with lice, parasites, worms.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
It was horrible physically, but I didn't get malaria. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
But the thing is, but the thing is... Can I just say for a second, though, I just this case has just been like on my mind, on my heart, in my dreams. Literally, I texted you, right? I was like, I just dreamt about this case because we've been researching it so long.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yes. Is that what you meant? All those rumors. You're feeding all those rumors. No, that's not what I meant whatsoever. But because I want to get to the case, we have to do justice to this case. We can't go too fast. But at the same time, we kind of have to be fast because we don't have forever to do this case.
The Prosecutors
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The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The innocence, you know, childhood, innocence of childhood and how, you know, it seems like just yesterday your kids are in this carefree world.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I would call it rabbit trails. Rabbit trails. What would you call it?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Okay, so I cried a little bit because, you know, I'm passing on some of these baby things to y'all, which I'm very happy to do. But my baby has already outgrown them. Like, we're no longer in that baby. Which just blows your mind, right? Right, because he was literally just born.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And I'm talking to Mrs. Brett, and I'm like, do you need, you know, like the baby swing, the boppy, you know, baby holder? And I was like, we've outgrown it already. I know. He's never going to be that small again.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I mean, your kids are just like, well, we'll get, we'll, we'll get started. But one of my favorite scenes, and this is fed to me on social media all the time is I didn't watch every episode, but I watched a good bit. Have you ever watched modern family?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Okay. One of the greatest speeches, you know, the grandpa, I don't, I honestly cannot remember any of their names, but the patriarch, the grandpa, and he's like the gruff man. And he's, you know, like not touchy feely at all, but there's this amazing speech that he gives about what it's like to be a parent. And every time it comes up on my social media, I watch it in its entirety and I cry.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And the gist of it, I'm not going to do it right. I'm not going to do it right. But he's always gruff. He never hugs his kids, all those sorts of things. And he says, along the lines of your Bluey episode, he's like, when a kid grows up, you don't even have time because life is so fast. You get so excited. And the next phase, you don't even think about how they've just gotten bigger.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And they keep getting bigger. And then they become a teenager. But then one day, they wake up. And they leave your house. But it's not just them leaving their house. They're leaving their house with every iteration of them before, like all the way down to like the little toddler sitting in your lap, down to the little baby who is on that little pillow.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I don't know if they live in holes because so you guys definitely make trails. I used to live in Georgia. And when I grew up, I lived in Georgia. This actually goes very well into this case and played outside all the time. And there were rabbits and bunnies that lived in my backyard, like plentiful. Because if you know about the bunnies, they really know how to procreate.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And he's like, and that's why it breaks you inside because you're not just losing the one child. You're losing, you know, all the versions of the child that you've grown and loved. And I'm like, oh my gosh, all these versions of my child. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Well, you know, I think that's a... But it's terrible. But you know why? But I think that's why it's wonderful. It is the most incredible thing you can do that you have no control. You have... I've never felt so powerless and so inept as I am as a parent, which is wonderful as a human being, because that is the reality of the world.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Like somehow in life, I've been able to get by pretty well in life knowing nothing. Somehow people just keep like passing me in school and I get like jobs and stuff. But parenting, everyone, it's such an even playing field. Like, you know, nothing, you know, nothing, Jon Snow.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I mean, I think that's why we always worry. Like I, people will be like, Oh, why do you, why do you care about them not staying in their seat during dinner time? And I'm like, because it is my job. Like this is, this is a person that I am responsible for in terms of like what I send out into the world for their own good, but for also the like eternity ripple effects. Like it is, it is so huge.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yeah. the like downstream effects of everything you do like you don't know which has to do with the case we're talking about right like right people and how they were raised it's going to literally affect an entire community forever and that is the responsibility of a parent and we're going to talk about parents and boy do we talk about parents in this case and you know even a suspect um
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
but like i mean it is it is just a heavy heavy thing but i mean i'm i clearly obviously have so many kids i agree i mean i think someone had asked me this in one of our question and answers that we didn't quite get to get into because the question answer went so long but they're like did you ever want a big family i think that's interesting because you know
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
You end up with a lot of bunnies. And you nearly had bunnies.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
To some people, I don't have a big family. To others, I am like insane for how many kids I have. So it's a matter of perspective. But truthfully, 10 years ago, no, there was no world where I thought I would have four kids. Not because I didn't want it. I just... It was never something that I was like set out to do, you know, but once I had one kid, I was like, well, I'm done.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Let's just have all the kids. Like, why not, man? Like this is more meaningful than anything I've ever accomplished in my life. And I love it. I'm so tired all the time, but it's so worth it. So worth it.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Takes over the whole yard. Bunnies take over the whole yard. But you look out back in my backyard and it was like this flat greenery, but there were rabbit trails going every which way because rabbits make trails because they are creatures of habit. That's how they stay safe because have you ever seen a rabbit? They got no defense mechanism, right? They can't play dead like an armadillo.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And I say this all the time. I mean, now we're going to get kind of personal, but again, it relates to the story we're talking about now. I didn't not have a good childhood, but... I am getting the privilege of basically having the childhood I wish I had alongside my kids.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And it's not that I'm using my kids to have their childhood, but rather like seeing their utter joy at the magicness of childhood. is like healing the hurts of my childhood, if that makes sense. And like, that's incredible.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I mean, you know, of course that sounds very selfish, but there's this incredibly like full circle opportunity where I truly feel like my life is just beginning, even though numerically it has not.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I guess so, yeah. Yeah, I mean, shoot. Baby Allison is about to wake up. Yeah, we just talked for so long.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
We'll just do tomorrow. We'll really get started tomorrow. This is all. Look, everything we've talked about. Everything we've talked about. Absolutely feeds into this case. And you guys, you're going to understand when this comes full circle at the end of 25 episodes, what we talked about today, right now, this was not for naught.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
This all wraps up and it will become crystal clear when we get to the end. Crystal clear. Crystal clear what we've talked about here. So if you've already figured it out, I would say instead of you being a psychopath, you are a genius. You are a genius. A genius, I say.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
A little bit long. I kind of feel like people are going to leave some one-star reviews.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Sorry, guys. Before they do it, they should really just check the calendar.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
They don't have venom like a snake. They're pretty awesome. So they make rabbit trails. So I've seen rabbit trails, never seen a rabbit hole.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yeah, I think this is going to be one of the most researched, most intense, and most divisive cases we will ever cover. And I think it is not an understatement to say that I just, I don't know. I don't know that we can ever top this case. So we better make it a good one.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I'm sorry. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I just want to say, you know, it's really not a joke when you're talking about murder ever, Brett. So I just wanted to make that clear for everyone who's making a one-star review who says, why do they chit-chat all the time? How dare you? How dare you, sir? How dare you, sir?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
If we didn't do this type of an introduction, I think people would actually be angry because we didn't spend enough time. Yeah, we're doing this for you. Introducing it.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
You're the best. You're the best. Well, happy April.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
What's the difference between a gopher and a groundhog?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I love it. I love it. Okay. So, but we're still going to like sign it. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I gotcha. Okay. I'm ready. I'm ready. Okay.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
We are so dedicated. So dedicated. That we just finished a two-hour question and answer legal briefs before filming this. It's true.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Oh, absolutely. Of course you have. I've watched it many times. Have you seen it? I feel like we've had this conversation before. Have we? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I assume so because I'm pretty sure it didn't all of a sudden change sometime in the 80s or 90s where before we said, oh, it's like Groundhog Day. We're like, yeah, when the gopher comes out and it's almost spring.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Now you're blowing my mind. But what about, why would that be an idiom in and of itself? I don't know. But idioms are weird, right?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I do know this only because I now live in the South. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
You know, I think you're giving someone a movie idea right now. Someone should make a movie called The Devil Beating His Wife.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
How did I get started on Groundhog Day? Rabbit trails. Rabbit trails. Go for it.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
It was. I actually think... I understand that people say rabbit holes, but I literally remember seeing these indentations into the grass. You could look out the backyard because when it came springtime, new rabbit trails would be formed because they went away and hibernated or whatever during the winter and the grass dies away, so the rabbit trails...
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
That's right. Which might have been made by rabbits. And being outside. Yeah. Well, definitely by rabbits, I think. I mean, that's kind of obvious. Or turtles. Who knows?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Turtles don't make trails because a lot of them swim. You know, turtles have always really baffled me because, you know, they're amphibious. So they're on the land.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And they're also in the water. I don't know if you know where I'm going with this because I'm not sure I know where I'm going with this.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
At the same time. But they're not very fast on land. But they can't live in the water all the time. Like they die if they need air. And so it just seems so weird that they are not.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I don't know if every type of turtle can drown. But I unfortunately am going to definitely get a PETA letter. I know this because I have drowned turtles by accident.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Go ahead. Tell the story. Before we get started, go ahead and tell the story.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yeah. Should we just get started? Just like a turtle. Nobody cares about my story. Should we just get started? No, no. I want to hear your story. Okay. We can always cut it out. We can always cut it out. So you guys, you guys, maybe this will save future turtles lives. I don't know if every turtle, I'm pretty sure because they're amphibious that they have to come up for air.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
So that's why I ask one question before you get into this story. How have I killed animals?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Maybe you don't know the answer. I don't know if it's a tortoise, but a sea turtle, I think. Exactly.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I think those are different. I know they exist. Even though they look a lot the same, they're probably even in the same family. I think they're very different, but I actually have no idea. But you're right.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
No, no, they are related, but I think that those have gills. like on do they have gills i think they have gills where's the turtles i'm thinking of it's like they always stick their nose out you know they stick their nose up you've been to the park
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Exactly. Exactly. But they don't have gills, right? And they have to have their mouths up there. And typically you see them sunbathing on rocks because they can swim to the top. But just like you and I, if you paddle forever, you get tired and you sink to the bottom. And then if you sink to the bottom, don't have air, you die.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
So that may have been what happened to one of my turtles that I caught from the creek. The same creek where I found the salamanders and lizards that I played with as a child.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yes, yes, exactly. We don't have to revisit that. Yes, I played with all these adorable reptiles and amphibians. So anyways, the turtles, because I didn't put rocks in the water where I was keeping it, they did not make it.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
That and Bananas Foster's and lots of other things. Isn't it good? But I've never had turtle, I've only had turtle soup in the New Orleans fashion, meaning with a lot of sherry.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yeah. Here's the thing. So the turtle soup you had, I assume, I went to Commander Palace's. They sued each other all over in the Fifth Circuit, that family. But that family, they opened- That's how you know it's good. Yeah, exactly. It's not called Commander's Palace, but it's the same family that opened it in Houston when I lived there. So I ate there all the time and had turtle soup.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
But the turtle soup I had there was like, it's like smooth, right? There's no chunks of turtle. This was chunky.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I was going to say, that's different. But there's a very distinct flavor.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Is it really a she-crab or are they just she-crabs?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Female chickens? Am I wrong about that? Okay, so they're supposed to all be females. Because they pick them out, right? But I think, because roosters are, they either taste different or they're whatever. But I think because chickens are, there's all this like... of how we raise them and we overfeed them because we eat a lot of chickens in this country.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I think some farms sell young roosters whose testicles have not descended and people find their testicles when they eat the chicken.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I might be making it up, but I'm not trying to fool you.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Let me tell you about roosters. Have you seen how furry they are with the feathers?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Hmm. No, I've not personally been the actor who effectuated it. But you know, the thing with roosters, when you want hens laying and you have too many roosters, you don't need that many roosters. So you have to chick sex. Is that a term that you use in your law class? Because I did that.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
The homesteaders as well? Hipsters or homesteaders. It's a very wide range. To have your own chickens. Yes.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
You don't want a rooster. At all. Correct. Well, I mean, you actually want a rooster so that you can keep having hens because hens get eaten a lot by wildlife.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
No. No, you want the rooster so that you can have some fertilized eggs so that you can then hatch some little chick. Oh, replacement hens. Replacement hens. But no, the roosters are vicious, man.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
You would have expected it to be then mass produced and appear on every single corner across America for kids to be lining up to play the game. But no, after one month of this highly addicting game and recording data mysteriously never removing any coins from it, one day these men in suits came and rolled away this game never to be heard from again. At least that's the urban legend.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
This urban legend has largely been perpetuated by the testimony of a man named Bobby Feldstein, who was abducted from his home in 1981 and claimed that Polybius was the reason. Okay, this gets crazier. And here's the thing. I can think of several stories in the news in the past couple years that sound something like this.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So while it's a little bit bizarre, especially to blame your disappearance on a video game, listen to this. So Bobby's story has been recounted on a podcast called The Polybius Conspiracy, which has recently given more credence to this urban legend. Because if you want to become fact, become a podcast. But his story is not the only one of its kind.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Users have popped up in various internet forums over the years claiming to have played the game and have been involved in the creation of the game. So if this is just an urban legend, where are all these people coming from who claim to remember this game from back in the 80s and some who even said, I worked on that game and it was way more nefarious than you can ever imagine?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
In October, 1981, a boy named Bobby Feldstein was abducted from his Portland home and discovered a day later, 60 miles from his home in the Tillamook State Forest. I mean, even if this boy walked for 24 hours, it's hard to imagine that he walked 60 miles, but that's where he's found. And when he was found, he was dirty and barefoot with his clothes torn.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And there were clear signs that he had spent some time in that forest. Now, this sounds like a classic abduction of some sort. What happened to this child? But here's the thing. The reason for Bobby's abduction was not for ransom. It wasn't for a custodial dispute. The perpetrator was never discovered. But years later, Bobby would remember something.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
He would blame Polybius for what happened to him. An article on Slate.com by Jacob Brogan recounts Bobby's story. On the day of his abduction, Bobby had been playing a new game at Coin Kingdom, which was, quote, a dodgy arcade in the city. And as he got deeper into the game, things started to go wrong in his head and consciousness dissolving into percussive static. You can almost feel this, right?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
That static within an electronic video game. And that's what's going through his mind here. And all of a sudden, the feeling lingered and grew as he made his way home, an unavoidable sense that something was off. That's when they came for him. A group of mysterious figures approached the house. They entered. Bobby tried to scream, but he was utterly paralyzed, unable to move. And not long after...
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Okay, so while Bobby doesn't exist, there are other people who, this is no spoiler, they really do exist. But they have things to say that are very similar to what Bobby said. So there's one anonymous user who claimed that Polybius was real, and not just that he played it, but he actually worked on it. The person who's known only by his online handle, PRG017, said,
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
claimed to have been a programmer with Sega's arcade division. He said that they received a request one day to create a game from a secret organization called Cineslotion, who had some level of governmental power. And though they were not sure from what country, it's really interesting that Sega can just be like, it might be the US. It could be, I don't know, someone nefarious.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But Cineslotion is who tasked them to create this game. Now, this user, PRG017, claims that they were given a project sheet and a map of the human brain and instructions on how to stimulate those areas of the brain and asked to incorporate it into a video game. They went on to say that the game took a long time to create. Obviously, you're bringing in like the maps of the brain here.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And it utilized technology far beyond what was available at the time. They described the game as a puzzler game, but with other odd elements to it. Apparently, the game testers experienced strange symptoms such as memory loss and other sorts of things that were happening, like the nausea that we have reported of people who played the game.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Hi, Brett. Electric, I like that. Yeah. Because here we are talking about electronic games, shall we?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So they were apparently very effective at the project that they didn't even know what the purpose was. When the game was done, those involved signed a document promising secrecy, which might explain why this person was anonymous.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But while this sounds incredibly interesting and fits right into that conspiracy of the government trying to use video games to see if they could control people's minds and perhaps this Sega arcade division was successful in it, This recollection from PRG 017 is extremely vague. It's very poorly written.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And the timeline that this person sets for does have some issues leading people to deduce that it was very likely just a fraudulent testimony.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
I was going to say the English language cannot contain all that is the prosecutors.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And this is all very interesting, right? Because now we have, so there are certainly elements or people online who are talking about this game who claim to have played it or claim to have been, you know, their lives affected by it, who we can poke holes into their testimony. Like, it's kind of doubtful. They're either anonymous. We don't know. But this seems very detailed.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And it seems to fit with what other people's memory is, right? A very popular game, but all of a sudden these men in black suits come and roll the game away and then it's gone forever. It seems to fit this narrative of, whoa, let's just say it's lawyers who kill all the fun, right? Like we don't want the liability on this. We don't want to cause seizures. We don't want people suing us.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
We don't want our name associated with this. Let's just call it what it is. Lawyers making these companies be boring. So then one day the game disappeared. So it's not anything conspiratorial. Rather, it was just liability, right? But there was a documentary by Ahoy, which is a YouTube gaming channel, and they pointed out several issues with this testimony that point to it being false as well.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
First, the user claimed that he had moved to Czechoslovakia in 1965 due to his parents' business interests. Now, this is unlikely because in 1965, Czechoslovakia was a communist nation and you couldn't just emigrate there. Second, this person claimed that his colleague studied Greek mythology. Remember, that's how they came up with the name Polybius. But Polybius is not a mythological figure.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
He was a historical figure, as Brett noted. So his post contained very few original details and nothing that could be substantiated in any way. And they were ultimately able to trace this IP address used by Stephen Roach to several other accounts and eventually found the man behind the Stephen Roach persona on social media.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And it's not Stephen Roach, though he wouldn't admit that his story was a hoax. It just seems very likely that what he has said is. By the way, I don't think this is just advent of the internet where people just go online and like write fan fiction or just like say things that are untrue. I guess that's always existed in all of time because we are all fantasy seekers in some way.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But it is such an interesting thing that, you know, you can sign up for any username on Reddit, on any social media. You can have a Twitter handle. Nobody knows who you are, right? huge stories for fun? I don't know, for clicks? To perpetuate an urban legend, perhaps?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But you can see how all of these, as they're saying it, there are lots of people who I don't necessarily think they all are in cahoots in one big conspiracy getting into a chat room and saying, let's go out there today, folks, and let's make sure the world believes in Polybius. And so it's a very interesting psychological...
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
test i guess as to why these stories are popping up how much is true why they're even putting it out there there's no money to be gained here it's not like polybius is actually for sale out there you can't find it to even play it but ahoy looking into this particular testimony of this guy who claims to have moved to czechoslovakia there's just too many holes in the timeline for it to really ring true
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
I played Duck Hunt. Oh, yeah. I played Duck Hunt all the time.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Duck Hunt with the little gun? Oh, my gosh. That was like the most fun. And then you, when the dog would laugh at you if you would lose. That was like the guitar hero of the 90s. You know? You had the gun. You had all this fun. So other than, I mean, Mario. Oh, yeah.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So now we're in summer 2003, right? Polybius was mentioned in the gaming magazine GamePro. These are like all over my house because my brothers played a lot of games. In an article titled Secrets and Lies, and the publication outlined six gaming myths and deemed them true, false, or inconclusive. And Polybius was number six on the list and GamePro deemed it inconclusive due to a lack of evidence.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So this article propelled the Polybius urban legend into a more mainstream idea amongst gamers, since GamePro is a pretty large publication at the time.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Now I have to go find me a duck hunt. It's like Monopoly.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
No, like literally they were all over my house.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Right. Absolutely. Especially because they don't say it's false. They say it's inconclusive. So now you have this mystery and people are like, did I play this back in the eighties? I mean, now we're talking about like 24 years earlier and, So that's not the only publication that starts talking about Polybius.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
August 21st, 2003, on the heels of GamePro, Polybius was featured in a Slashdot article as well.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Right. So now this is catching fire, shall we say? So now we go to February 29th, leap year, 2004. Polybius the video game was first mentioned in the external link section of the Wikipedia page for Polybius the Greek historian. When you make it to Wikipedia, by the way, you know you've made it.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
There was a note that read, quote, Polybius is also the name of a possibly fictitious video game in contemporary folklore related to Atari's Tempest. It legendarily led to mental illness in players. According to the possibly hoaxed title screen to the game, the manufacturer was Cineslotion, German for Sense Delete.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So all to say is, of course, I played video games. I was a child of the 90s. And, you know, all the pixelated, I think back to all the best games. Those are the best ones like Pac-Man with just it's just a Pac-Man who just moves his mouth in the most rudimentary of ways. You could play that for hours as it ate a single dot.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And that might actually in itself give us a little clue into what's behind the Seneslotion Polybius urban legend. Now we're in Wikipedia, right? And it is kind of crazy. It's crazy that Wikipedia and these pages are obviously edited by I think there's like some amount of time it has to go by and then obviously someone else can edit it, but it is crowd edited.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So on November 30th, 2004, the Wikipedia page for Polybius, the Greek historian, was amended to add a section for this arcade game hoax. Now it's appearing on multiple pages of Wikipedia online. which really just shows that it's reaching a broader audience. Now it's not just some niche sort of small thing. We've been in GamePro slash dot. We are now kind of in the big leagues.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Now there are entries in Wikipedia acknowledging that there might be a game. We don't know for sure whether there ever was a game called Polybius. February 25th, 2005, a Wikipedia page for Polybius, the video game itself, was first published. So now no longer is it just an entry for other, you know, similar sounding names. But now Polybius, the video game, has its own Wikipedia page.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So when something is of unknown origin, does it at some point, kind of like the opposite of a tree falls in a forest, if enough people say it is something and enough Wikipedia pages are created, does it become fact? And what is the difference between fact and fiction anyways in reality? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Nothing like today where everything's 3D and realistic and you build an entire world. The world was pixelation back then.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And here's the other thing that's very interesting about it. In addition to being able to map out its entire timeline, there are so many things that are being perpetuated online that are false that could take off as urban ledgers, but they don't. So why does this one take off of all of them? Because there are so many posts out there. Just go on Reddit.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
right there there's fan fiction being written there's even podcasts being made about but this one why did this one catch fire what is it kind of like the hook hand we can kind of say okay the hook hand you know trying to make sure you know walk the straight line boys and girls don't go to lover's lane etc etc all the things that could go wrong in your life if you make an errant decision you know on those lover lane nights what is this meant to warn us of
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Honestly, it sounds like he's a popular suspect of the origin of Polybius because he's German and people are like, German without people really recognizing that it's not a real German word. And also because he did pull off the other game. They're like, well, he knows how to pull off pranks. So maybe this is another one.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Other than those two, I can see why people would try to put those things together and say, ah, he seems to be the likely candidate. But I think there are a lot of reasons, as Brett just said, where he's probably not the person. So who else do we have as the person who is the originator of this urban legend? Well, Kurt Kohler is often considered the creator of Polybius, the urban legend.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
since he operated the site where the myth first appeared. That makes sense, right? Like, that's how you get on coinop.org. In August 1998, Kurt Kohler took over coinop.org, the domain, and turned it into a games database. He also announced the addition of a German language version of the site.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Now, Kurt had control over what appeared on the site, so many think that because he had that level of control, he may have received a tip about Polybius and created the story in good faith. But if this were the case, he willingly ignored the fact that there was no evidence at all that Polybius ever existed.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So maybe the most damning evidence that Kurt Kohler created this legend was provided by the author of the 2003 Secrets and Lies article from GamePro, Dan Amrick. Now, Amrick confirmed that Kurt was the first person to tip him off about Polybius and that he believed Kurt was just making it all up.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Kurt was a developer and he would have had the skills needed to forge that screenshot of the game that we showed you. He was also familiar with the German language, though not fluent, probably just enough to basically have a German version of his website available.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
He also would have personally benefited from this urban legend since it would drive traffic to his website and he would have an interest in getting GamePro, for example, to do an article about it, one of the largest publications for gamers. And then everyone would be going to check out this post on coinop.org, which would drive eyes to his website.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Now, Kurt told the creators of the documentary that the entry was on the site before he took over, though, as we showed with the whole placeholder with dates, it doesn't seem to be the case. But you can imagine if he wants people to continue to think that Polybius
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
is potentially real, he doesn't want to be found out because the myth, the legend continues to circle around his website and it benefits him.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
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The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
That was actually a pretty good breakdown of what this was. And that's the thing, right? Not all urban legends are necessarily nefarious. Yes, maybe someone created this to drive traffic, but it really took on a life of its own because it wasn't just one post that people referred back to and thought, this is such an interesting story.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
We had all these people collectively remembering this experience from the 80s. And here's the other theory, though. Maybe Polybius is real. Because unlike today in 2025, as we're recording in 1981, there wasn't a timestamp recording of every single movement of every one of our lives, right? I can look down at my phone today and tell you how many steps I took.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Literally every step is being tracked today, but not so in the 80s. It's very possible that this game existed for a very short time, you know, a month. didn't have only in one region of the country. So only a small subset of the population experienced it. But what they experienced was mind blowing and something that they still remember to this day. And it may very well simply be real.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And we just don't have good documentation of it. So those are the possibilities of what it could be. Now, will this case ever be solved? So we've gone through the potential origins of where this urban legend may have come from, but I don't think we really have an answer and we may never know the origins of this urban legend. But I think theory number four is probably not right.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
I think we can determine that it is a hoax. Sorry, whether it was for nefarious reasons or whether it was for fun. Maybe it was a massive April Fool's joke that didn't happen on April 1. And maybe it was just to see how far you could push a story.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Because even though not everything was documented in the 80s, there's absolutely no evidence that this game has ever existed, except for this screenshot of the opening screen of the game. No one has ever found one of these machines. And remember that story that I told? There are people who truly go hunt down historic or very old 1980s arcade games and fix them up.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
I feel like we're about to embark on a Stranger Things episode. Like this is Stranger Things. I love Stranger Things. It's like so nostalgic callback. But like a scene in Stranger Things is really this entire episode we're stepping into. I remember I was a little bit after right when arcade games came out, but I was still, you know, a child, right? You would take your sock, right?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Not a single one has ever been found anywhere. Not in a thrift store, not in grandma's basement, not in a junkyard. And there really is no proof that there was one ever. All we have is internet speculation, mostly by anonymous handles, that seem to all trace back to one article on coinop.org. So cold water prosecutors here don't really think Polybius really existed.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
If you have been hanging on every word thinking, I'm going to go find me Polybius and I'm going to play it and experience what Bobby Feldstein experienced, I don't think you're ever going to find it.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
I am so disconnected from the world. I actually deleted all social media for Lent, by the way. So if you haven't seen me, that's why.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
The like, I don't know. halfway up your calf socks. What are those called? Not crew socks. With like a line, jersey sock. And you'd like fill them with quarters and ride down because you'd tie it to like your handlebars because we all biked everywhere and go play games.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And that's a great point. You know, I think about that all the time. There are All these influencers now from really our generation who grew up right before the Internet, right? Like who grew up in the 90s and they're influencing the way they make money on social media is literally just to speak into truth the things that we experience that is not documented, right?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Like the whole mind is going to come from like a girl's perspective in the 90s, but like trapper keepers and things that... If you dug far enough, you could probably find some documentation of it. Or like you'll see all these posts about all the snacks that no longer are made that we grew up eating. You know, like you can't go to the store and buy those snacks.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But when we see the packaging, we're like, yes, candy cigarettes not allowed anymore. But you look at it and it triggers something deep within you because it strikes that emotion where, wow, I haven't seen this in so long. Never even thought about. about it until now. But the fact that I'm seeing something that is accessing my childhood unlocks kind of all these emotions.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And I think that's why these influencers take off. They don't do anything except like speak into existence the things that are now gone that we had somewhat forgotten. And there is some nostalgia in that, but also some wistfulness in really the passage of time and how everything really is. This is bringing it back to like, you know, Easter, you know, dust to dust, right?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Things, if you don't continue to talk about them, if they are not remembered, they flow through your fingertips and then they are lost to the sands of time. And what is their import? What's the ripple effect on eternity? You know, there is probably some ripple effect, but how much so when it has all been forgotten throughout history? Yeah. And I did this tonight.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So I read a lot of Sandra Boynton books, which is a baby board book. One of the greatest authors of our time. I truly mean this. Incredible books. But one thing that Sandra Boynton does is she writes these beautiful children's board books. And they're all rhyming. And almost all of them are meant to be sung. But the majority of them do not have lyrics. like any music to them.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
There's no, you know, a couple of them, she has the music staff and you could actually sing it to music, but they are all meant to be sung and it's poetry. And my kids always demand that I sing them the book as opposed to just read them. And so I sing it, but because it's not really set to any song, it comes out different every time.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And I think about how it's slightly different every time I sing it, and my kids know. Like, Brittany will turn to me, she's two, and she'll say, no, no, because I sang it slightly different than she remembered the night before. And I've looked at her and thought, You will be a grown woman one day and you will think back, what was that song my mom sang me?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And I, even if I'm alive, probably could never recreate it for her, even if I'm there because I can't recreate it day by day. And there is some wistfulness about the human condition, like you say, about the fact that We record our voices for this podcast, but even that is fleeting. What happens when all of these are destroyed or deleted in the cloud? There's a massive hack, power outage.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
No longer do our voices exist. And I don't know, it's an existential question to grapple with on a Friday night.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
In other words, I know, I know throughout this, this episode, cause I was there with you guys when I first looked into Polybius, it's like, what's the point of this? Like, If this is a hoax, if this isn't real, why are we talking about this?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And I think there are these overarching themes that go not only to urban legends, not only go to true crime, not only go into our lives, is that what stories take flight? What makes them take flight? And what makes them take flight when... It's pretty clear that they're not real, but we continue to tell these stories. We continue to tell the hookhand story.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
We continue to tell the choker story, right? You take the choker off and her head falls off. We continue to tell these stories, even though obviously we know that her head didn't fall off. Like, it's impossible to keep your head tied together with a choker, right? But we continue to tell stories because I think storytelling is real.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
has always been the way that we pass on culture, the way we pass on beliefs, and the way we pass on history. I think it is stronger than, you know, even the written word, because you look back, you know, paper disintegrates, even stone disintegrates over time. But the stories that we have truly runs throughout history, maybe in slightly different versions, because there's the game of telephone.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But we are the single voice that goes through all of history. So I think this is that is the point. It is not just, you know, fun and games. But I think it's a really interesting question to know why we tell the stories that we do.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
No, no, I'm saying you went on this journey with us of Polybius.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
This really is an episode. But, you know, you came here for something a little lighter because we've been talking about a triple homicide for weeks on end now and it's going to go on for weeks on end. But someone that you and I worked with, Brett.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Great job. That's exactly right. And also remember, it's easy for us after the fact to be looking at an entire case that has reached some sort of outcome to say, well, just follow the evidence because the evidence is a breadcrumb and you can follow quite literally the trail through the story. You don't have that. Think of it as a literal blank page when you start an investigation, right?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
You haven't interviewed anyone yet. You haven't gotten DNA testing back. You haven't gotten cell phone dumps, cell phone tower dumps back. I mean, follow the evidence in a lot of when you really follow the evidence in a real investigation, there are so many dead ends and you come back and you go out and you come back and you go out. That's following the evidence.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
But follow the evidence, of course, is a principle that you always have to abide by. But it's easy for us to say post hoc, they should have just followed the evidence. It would have clearly led to suspect B. It's not that clear when you are starting from square zero with nothing in front of you.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
lived down the street from me and he was a single man, you know, quite a bit older than the two of us, which meant that he had a lot of time because he didn't have like toddlers he had to chase after. And when he moved, because he was down the street from me, I wasn't trying to spy on him, but of course I was like, oh, I wonder, you know, what's coming out of his house.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
No. This was a nice... If you have ideas of cases you'd like to hear inserted throughout our other case that we're doing right now, let us know. We'd love to do cases like these. We love cases that are child appropriate, which this one is. So if you have ideas for those, there aren't that many in true crime. So if you have one, we'll probably do it.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So he lived in, you know, a full, like, I don't know, four bedroom house, but it's just him. And what do you think was in every one of those bedrooms?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Okay. It's a little quiet. One second. Sound good to me. How is that? Okay. Okie dokie. Can you say hi to your dear children? Hello, my favorite children.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Can you really? See, the urban legend has largely been perpetuated by the testimony of a man named Bobby Feldstein. Feldstein? Feldstein.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Not just an arcade game. I counted, and I must have missed because I couldn't just sit on my driveway and watch the moving van. I counted 23 arcade games come out of his house. And I have to... think that they were just in every single bedroom lined. And I was like, wow, did not know that he collected, but they were like the like old school ones.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
I'm going to go with Feldstein. The urban legend has been largely perpetrated by the testimony of a man named Bobby Feldstein. Did I say it again?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And apparently he just like collected them from all over, drive all over the South to collect them whenever they came out, which was pretty cool. So if you're one of those people who collect like eighties and nineties arcade and work on them, cause you can, they're pretty simple. Like those last forever.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
You know, my, my iPhone doesn't last for more than a year now, but these arcade games last four years later.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Really is beginning to feel like a Stranger Things episode. This Polybius, I mean, surely it didn't just arrive because if you've seen an arcade game, they're huge, they're massive, they're difficult to move on your own. So when you have these arcade games, they really are a standalone.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
And typically you would normally expect someone to come over, use a little key, open up the cabinet, take out the coins, that sort of thing. Right. But Polybius was a little bit different.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
You see, Polybius seemed to be serviced more than any other game in the arcade and not by, you know, some guy who worked at the arcade, maybe with a little bit of a plumber's bum as he leaned over with his jeans that kind of sagged down and a big wad of keys on his side, pulling the pants even further down. Not that kind of guy.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
no the kinds of people that were servicing these games were seemingly just as mysterious as the game itself they were men in black suits and they would come and open the machines every week but they would record its data and leave never taking the coins from the machine, which is a bit bizarre because what's the point of an arcade game?
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
Isn't it to get people to give you their quarters, make some money off of it? But no, those coins stayed in the arcade. And what were they taking down every time they opened the machine? What kind of data were they taking? But this happened often, more often than any other game. and again by these men in suits.
The Prosecutors
305. The Polybius Mystery -- Video Games
So some even reported that these men would just stand there and watch them as they played. But almost as quickly as this game appeared, it mysteriously vanished when these same men came about just a month later. and remove the game from the arcade for good. This wasn't just a market study because clearly it was skyrocketing in terms of popularity. If this was a market test, it did great.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Right. And remember, just this is shocking because we now know what the notes are. We had been told that there were notes and there were potential suspects, but even Bates' own motion states that the alleged facts supporting it are conflated. So there's not even clear among the investigation what they found because they are not being clear. In fact, there was no evidence.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And so when Yurik was then interviewed by Bates' team, He said that the note stated someone had said he would kill Hay was in fact referring to Adnan. And so they took this note and gave it whatever meaning they wanted to. But Yurk, who is the one who actually wrote this note, said, no, when I said someone was going to kill Hay, I was referring to Adnan Syed, not some mystery third party.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Stunningly, the SRT did indeed interview the person who provided the information to Yurik, and she told them that she did not recall Bilal Ahmed ever threatening to harm Haye. Now, despite receiving this information, Mosley nevertheless told the court that the evidence indicated that this note referred to a third party Bilal Ahmed threatening Haye.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And this is why, by the way, as he's uncovering these falsehoods, they aren't just matters of interpretation, but where they learn one thing, they even write it down. He finds like, I think he says he searches their emails, but a lot of things have been destroyed, that these are complete misrepresentations of what they know.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And by the way, that list isn't ours. That's literally a footnote in the motion. I may or may not have spit out my coffee when I read that line because he quite literally lists. He's like, there's a problem with the chain of custody. When you are relying on the defense's own file saying these documents aren't in there.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
So many people have touched this file, including, he says, YouTubers and people who are not part of his defense team have touched this file. That's not where you go to see if something's been turned over. Where you go is perhaps the prosecuting attorney. Hey, what were your practices? And indeed, he said, well, the practice, as is Baltimore law, was to have an open files discovery process.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
What that means is you can come over and flip through my physical files. Every single piece of paper I have, you can look through. And it's not just that, oh, that was the pattern and practice of my office or that was law. Because, of course, if you have a bad actor, a bad prosecutor, misconduct, even if it's the law, maybe you didn't do that.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Well, conveniently, they actually kept a log of when the defense, Syed's team, came over on multiple occasions to take advantage of the open files discovery process. And they did. And they saw these things. And one reason that we, in fact, know they knew about these things was Like Brett said, Bilal and Alonzo were known to the defense. They were the alternate suspects.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
We know this because it's been part of the lore for the last couple decades in terms of trying to say Syed was wrongfully convicted. So remember what the standards of Brady are. It's not just, oh, any scrap of paper can count. Not only was that scrap of paper, in fact, turned over or part of the open records discovery process, but number two, it has to make a difference.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And because these things were already known to the defense and they developed these alternate suspect, some other dude did it defenses. There is absolutely no Brady violation here whatsoever. And I will say Bates really comes in like vindicates Prosecutor Urich in terms of because he was thrown under the bus previously with respect to these potential Brady violations.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And then he doesn't stop there. So he goes through the two notes. He goes through the alternate suspects and he concludes, we've tried to piece together the SRTs review. We've looked at every single thing. We've recreated these things. We found out about Operation Trash Panda, where they quite literally did the whole trash poll to try and get DNA from Alonzo Sellers and the four bags of trash.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And by the way, they must be really bad at being trash pandas because they couldn't get any good DNA from it. But anyways, they detail all of these things that the SRT team did. And Bates concludes, despite all of this, they tried so hard. These two notes did not account to Brady violations. The court was told something about the evidence that was just patently untrue.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And the office knew it was untrue. And there are no alternate suspects that the defense didn't previously know about. And there's no reason to think that these that further investigation would point to either of these men being alternate suspects. And so he doesn't stop there. Even though, remember, this motion is not about guilt or innocence. He goes on to say, then there's DNA.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
So this is from the executive summary. It appears that the DNA is what Ms. Mosby relied upon to exonerate Mr. Syed. This justification is problematic for three main reasons.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
first the dna was found on a pair of shoes in miss lee's car and the shoes were never proven to be miss lee's we have found no corroborating evidence supporting that fact other than that police recovered them in the back seat of her car
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
second there were four dna samples on these shoes however mr saya's dna was not on the shoes and in fact miss lee's dna did not even appear on the shoes again creating questions about whose shoes they were and whether those were the shoes that miss lee wore that day finally
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
It appears that the DNA discovered was on the bottom of the shoes, which is unsurprising given that anyone's DNA could be transferred from the ground to a person's shoes. I'm not going to say we said it, but we said it. It is critical to note that during this office's extensive review and An email was located from an SRT member to Ms.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Mosby sent the day before she dropped the charges against Mr. Syed, stating that the DNA evidence recovered on the shoes was, quote, not conclusive of innocence. That's from her own review team. This office agrees that DNA from the bottom of a pair of shoes recovered in the backseat of the victim's car is not dispositive or even relevant to the case.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
To date, there is no information whatsoever to say that these shoes played any role in Ms. Lee's murder. Unlike Ms. Mosby, this is a real kicker, y'all. I got so excited I deleted it. My whole computer froze because I got so excited. Okay, here's the kicker. It ends with this. Unlike Ms.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Mosby, we cannot vacate this conviction based on the lack of Mr. Syed's DNA on the bottom of a pair of shoes found in the backseat of Ms. Lee's car.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Absolutely. And again, we are reading the words of Ivan Bates, who is no friend of us. I would say he was more likely to align with Mosby than us. And so these are not our words because we didn't have access to these files. He, by the way, didn't have access to these files, which is shocking.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
If I walked into an office and the Motion to Vacate review team had destroyed their records, oh, there would be hell to pay because what are you hiding? And that's exactly why he is steaming. I think there could be a different world if they didn't try to cover their tracks and try to pass on this fraud on the court to him that he has to inherit. That's why this matters so much.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And yes, to Georgetown. I used to teach at Georgetown. And I'm not sure I'd ever go back now. There you go. I was an adjunct professor there. So it might show you that they'll hire anyone. But no, I had to go through a thorough background check, by the way, and also state that I had no convicted felonies, things like that, which he continues to have. So anyways, there's more. Brett, bring us home.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Absolutely. Now, when this was filed back in 22, I remember we did a legal briefs on it. And at the time, we didn't have access to the full picture. But we actually asked a lot of the same questions that Ivan Bates also asked when he took a new look at this reinvestigation, shall we say. And if you haven't read this filing, first of all, it's going to take a while because it's 88 pages.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And that was just the executive summary y'all. That's not even the motion. The motion itself is 90 pages of just obliteration of Mosby's argument that Syed should have his conviction vacated. Much of it is an in-depth discussion of the things in the executive summary. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
But I'm going to cut to the chase. Those 88 pages essentially say we had to reinvestigate everything because the investigation led by Mosby was destroyed and Mosby wouldn't speak to us about it. And we had to piece together what was done, quote unquote, in order to support the motion to vacate. And.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
After looking at everything, reexamining the evidence, reexamining all the investigation since Mosby came into the office, I have to basically apologize to the court that I cannot stand by the lies put forth before this office. I mean, it is it goes that far. Read the footnotes. It is putting everything out there. It is naming people by names. a lot of the time.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Thank you. Thank you. Oh, there is so much more to say there. But if you are interested in how cell phone towers and cell phone information actually works, we do have an expert from the FBI, not some guy who just kind of works on electronic communications and transmissions who may or may not be tangentially related to. No, this is his thing.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And there are people who investigated this case and made representations to the court that he calls out.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Usually there's at least some sort of blocking for your office, but the misrepresentations were so egregious and they were such a miscarriage of justice, both for the victim as well as Heyman Lee's brother, that he basically righted the record and laid bare for all to see, including basically doing...
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
This is how he catches people currently like in the midst of Amber Alerts stealing information. people he finds them through cell phone tower dumps and he will talk to you about it and he came on our show on legal briefs can't remember the episode you can search for it he's awesome and it was really refreshing to see that bates mentioned the strength of the evidence here
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And he doesn't stop there because, oh boy, we know that the defense and those who claim Adnan is wrongfully convicted. They all have to bring up Jay Wilds. Jay Wilds certainly is, you know, working for the police here to frame Adnan. Well, Bates talks about the credibility of Mr. Wilds' account, and he notes that it was bolstered by the fact that his description of Ms.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Lee's clothing to police on February 28, 1999, matched what she was wearing when police recovered her body. In addition, Mr. Wilds led police to the obscure location of Ms. Lee's parked car and testimony from Ms. Vinson, and Jennifer Pusateri corroborated critical parts of Mr. Wilds' account.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Finally, Mr. Ruwanowitz matched details of Mr. Wilds' testimony with data from his own independent testing in 1999 of cell tower coverage at specific locations around the Baltimore area. In contrast with the many and varied ways that the state corroborated Mr. Wilds' account, the SRT failed to identify any actual evidence that Mr. Wilds testified falsely.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
What we did, like the Adnan did it episode, the last part of the 88 page motion seeking to withdraw the motion to vacate is essentially the whole case against Adnan. I mean, it is a work. It is a very it could have been, by the way, many of these motions. It could have been as simple as a one pager that said easy.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
although it is true and was well known to the parties at trial that mr wilds told various lies to the police during the murder investigation the mvj suggested that the state cannot rely on j wilds testimony alone
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
the state has never attempted to do so the extensive evidence presented at trial of mr syed's guilt judged substantial direct and circumstantial evidence by the highest court of the state was multifaceted and has survived repeated challenge on appeal and in post-conviction proceedings
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
That is true. And also it gives part of Jay Wilds his life back. Right. He has been just absolutely smeared across all these like social media campaigns trying to spring Adnan wrongfully from prison. And here the state is saying, look, we've looked at everything. There is no reason to think that his testimony isn't reliable here. Yeah, he told some lies. We've put that all out there.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
That was known and that was presented to the jury back then. And with all of this, this tour de force at the end of the 88 pages,
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Ivan Bates concludes, taking into account the numerous false and misleading statements in the MVJ and after fairly and dispassionately reviewing the available evidence, the state is forced to conclude that we are not able to meet our burden of proof under Maryland criminal procedure section 8-301.1. As such, we have no choice but to withdraw the MVJ. That's a mic drop.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
We reviewed the investigation and we would like to withdraw the motion to vacate as we no longer find that it is supported by evidence signed. Ivan Bates that we see all the time. Obviously, this case has a lot of media attention, shall we say, and the office was under a microscope after Mosby filed this quote unquote bombshell of a motion.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I'm going to take a slightly different tact in case she's listening and wants some ideas of what to do. I would put him back in prison for the amount of time that he was improperly out because he didn't seek the proper vehicle and because there was fraud on the court in order to make sure. Right.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
There's also the deterrence effect, shall we say, of prosecutorial misconduct that when you seek to bring fraud on the court, there are consequences and he never would have been out but for fraud on the court. And I think they will grant, you know, the juvenile whatever resentencing act.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
But the amount of time that he was out until whatever that filing was, even if it's a day in order to make a point that you have to abide by the rules of the justice system. And there are not exceptions for people who somehow get the ear of a YouTuber or get the ear of some NPR, you know, podcast that they are no different than anyone else. We all follow the same path.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
rules and the same laws Adnan Syed is not exempted that's what I would do if I were her well now if I'm getting to do whatever I want to do it's a different story that's what I predict will happen what I would I predict I'm predicting this as well well that would be great I would take that because because of the anger that she should rightfully have about the fraud on the court and I do think there needs to be a message sent I think it's within her realm and it would be very justifiable in order to do that basically saying like oh you want to skip the line you got to go back to the line
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And for him to file this out there, it really is a lay it bare for all to see. And if there was ever a question. about whether there was a Brady violation, there wasn't one. Whether there are alternate suspects who are actually viable, there are not. And whether the evidence was sufficient to convict Adnan, there was. And this is from the Baltimore City Attorney's Office.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Well, there you have it. That was the filing. You can read it for yourself. If you disagree with us, that's perfectly fine. We are not gleeful because we think we're right or anything. We are gleeful because, as we stated earlier, I have renewed faith that prosecutors' offices will do the right thing, that fraud on the court will not stand. And I'd like to say 2025 is going to be the year where...
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Reason and integrity will continue to prevail in the justice system because the justice system, unlike anything else really in our society, it only exists because we put our trust in it. And when things like what has happened around the circus of Adnan Syed, it absolutely tarnishes and degrades the entire judicial system, not just in Baltimore, across our entire country.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
That's why this matters to us, because this filing is seeking to do his part in from his office what he has control over to ensure that the judicial system is blind and no one is treated differently. And that's exactly what I would want if I were being prosecuted or if I were wrongfully convicted. And you should want this as well. You should want this for your taxpayer money.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
You should want this for the justice system that you live under. And I am very glad because Heyman Lee's name comes up multiple times in this filing. Bates does not lose sight of who the real victim is here.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And he talks about the harm done to young Lee and the entire family. And absolutely, that was done by Mosby. That was done by that office because that fraud on the court was a fraud on her and her family as well. And this is not to he does not overstep lines here. Everything he says is backed up by. That's why he shows all of the evidence that he uncovered in this.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And I can only hope that we don't have to do this again, that moving forward, there will not be motion to vacate judgment. As we saw, that was a complete fraud that we can take now. All of this. Learn from it. Move on. As we've said so many times before, don't give any more of your time to this case. It is done. It is. There are no open investigations. He did it. He has not admitted to it.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I don't think he ever will. But there is no more time he deserves from any of us. We should move on to truly wrongfully convicted people or trying to take these resources to solve cases for victims who are still awaiting justice. We do not have infinite resources. The Baltimore State's Attorney's Office doesn't have unlimited resources.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Now, hopefully, they can go work on real cases that are still open now.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
So with that, it doesn't change the sad fact that Heyman Lee's life was cut short. And let's not forget that. That's why you should feel outrage. But hopefully tonight and all the nights coming forward, Young Lee, Heyman Lee's mother, the rest of their family can at least rest knowing that the state's office took a good look and this conviction stands. And he is the one who did it.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And justice was served in the court of law for Heyman Lee. Wow. That was a fiery episode. It's a fiery filing. What can I say? But as always, let us know what you think. You can email us at prosecutorspod at gmail.com. You can read the filing for yourself. We will post it. We have posted it. Please do take a look at what a real honest investigation looks like and what
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
fraud on the court can look like and what we need to do in order. This is not about where you turn your attention and where you, you know, decide to get your news. This is real life, real justice in the courts that has real ramifications. And I hope there are ramifications for the people who perpetrated this fraud on the court.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
But with that, are there any questions that we want to answer after that fiery episode?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Why not? Let's take the temperature down a bit.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I don't know if I'm an answer. I think everything I say is weird to them, right? Like, no, don't lick your fingers after you've gone to the bathroom. Said that today.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I mean, I'll say one thing, and you know this from coming to my house all the time. I don't think we're the only people, but we started this when my oldest was like one. But my kids love sparkling water, but we don't call it sparkling water because that is a strange concept. What do you mean your water's sparkling? It's not sparkling. There's no color to it.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
So we call it spicy water or bubble water. And so we forget and we call it that in the wild. So we'll be at the restaurant and be like, can I have some of your spicy water? And they're like... Excuse me, ma'am. What?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Good for you, little buddy. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Those are really, those are really good. Yeah. My kids are really obsessed with death too. And they talk about it all the time. In fact, so much so that when I put my oldest to bed, he's seven. I don't know if it's like an age thing, but it's been several years now that when I say good night, he'll say, I'm so going to miss you when you die.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
That's how he says good night to me every night, y'all.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I'm still here. I'm still here.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Oh, this is the last one. This, you know, we've already talked about someone asked us our religion. So this this will completely Brett will completely disagree. But I was a little exhausted with questions this weekend at church. We're sitting in the pews and like all four kids are like kind of sick, coughing all over me, being really not great during church. And.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
My five year old like has asked one million questions, literally like, why is that gold? What's the light coming through? When are you going to make? Can I have some goldfish? What about that goldfish? How many? How do they make goldfish? Where are the divisor? And like nonstop and like throughout the whole mass. And like, finally, it's like 45 minutes.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I'm Alice. And I'm Brett. And this is The Prosecutor's Legal Blues. Welcome back to the Prosecutor's Legal Briefs. I'm your host, Alice, and I'm joined, as always, by my trash panda of a co-host, Brett.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
We're almost done, but there's still like 15 minutes left. And he looks at me and he goes, what's in that cup? And I said, wine. And he goes. what happens to the wine? I said, it becomes, it's the blood of Jesus. It's part of the Eucharist. And he's like, how does it become the blood? And I said, transubstantiation. And everyone behind me started laughing their heads off.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Cause I was like, I can't answer any more questions. Like he really knows what transubstantiation is. And literally it was like five pews back. Everyone was just laughing their heads off. Cause I was like, I can't handle it anymore.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
OK, well, there we go. We've lost everybody now. Oh, my goodness. Well, guys, thanks for staying with us. We got a question for you in and see how fun these questions are. Leave a five star review. You get to ask a question. Thank you guys for ideas of what to cover on Legal Briefs. And also, don't forget our other podcast, The Prosecutor's Podcast. But until next time, I'm Alice. And I'm Brett.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And this is The Prosecutor's Legal Briefs. playing with people's emotions. I would never do that. Duh, duh. Um, yeah, I know. I mean, it took me like two days to read it, uh, broken up, but it was, uh, it was a scathing to say the least. Also, my point was it took forever to do the, to undo the craziness, you know, like imagine if they, I don't know, solved another murder during that time.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
You know, I do what I can. Trash panda is a fantastic phrase anyways, but for once, I'm not just making up and grabbing words out of the ether. This isn't a filing in the Adnan case, so I am, in fact, quoting from a motion filed by the state.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And let me say something else about Ivan Bates's integrity here. There is a world where he could have done that. Just do the easy thing and say, we stand by the motion. And no one would have been the wiser because we wouldn't have known the quote unquote investigation, the reinvestigation that was done by Mosby's team and how it was not supported by evidence.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Because what would have happened instead of having to represent this in court, it never happened.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
had to come to light he could have looked at the evidence and been like oh that's not very good it's okay we'll stand by it because it's the you know little p political good thing to do people will love it because all the media seems to say he's innocent and i'll be the hero here and then strike a deal with adnan so that they never had to present the new evidence he serves time served or whatever and none of us would ever know the shenanigans that happened
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
But that's not what prosecutors or any public servant is supposed to do. And I like have renewed faith in the public service sector that he really took a deep dive and he took a deep dive. Before we started recording, we even said in order to reinvestigate what Mosby did, it wasn't to reinvestigate Adnan's case.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
It was to reinvestigate what they did in order to put the motion to vacate together and to write this 88 page tome. they probably could have solved another murder or prosecuted many other cases that's how much time this took and they had to do that though because they had to unwind the shenanigans and this is why we've said so many times before this was not a victimless action by Mosby.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
There are probably actual real victims in Baltimore whose cases have not been prosecuted yet or fully investigated yet because they've had to spend their time basically going back to square one from 20 years ago.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
We know Adnan's guilty and he had to unwind all of the shenanigans and he had to do it for the integrity of the court because he's an officer of the court and not to do so could potentially come back with ramifications on his very profession and his license to practice law. So This is important. This is a big deal. A lot of filings get filed and we're like, nothing burger.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
This is not a nothing burger. So now that we've totally built it up, if you don't have time to read the 88 page, we'll dive in there for you.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
It's a fun read, though. It is. It's a fun read.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
It's a really fun read. I had a long day yesterday. By fun read, I mean it's told. You know, sometimes you can read a work and you know that the person's like furiously writing. I can almost see the smoke coming out of the computer, like the intensity with which he is writing. I think Ivan may have written this.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Absolutely. So let's move on to the executive summary. And like Brett said, this filing is not about guilt or innocence. It's whether the vacation was supported. And in order to do that, he had to figure out what was done in order to support, to research, to investigate what new evidence came to light in the office that allowed them to file this motion to vacate. And
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
When he started digging in, this is never a good thing. We all know lawyers have to keep records of everything. We know that when Mosby came in, he said that there was a Syed review team that was created. He abbreviates it as SRT. And usually you would think if you had an investigation, certainly something that wasn't completed.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Because when you go to vacate a judgment, there's still things that can happen, right? The case is not yet closed. You would keep the results of your investigation. But... Unfortunately, the Syed review team did not preserve their investigation.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And when they reached out, when his office reached out to the prior state's attorney, Mosby, Mosby would not speak with Bates's attorneys to piece together what supported their motion to vacate. This is highly unusual to do an entire investigation and then to destroy your records. It's not like this was 10 years ago or 20 years ago. This was like two years ago.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And so at the forefront, he puts this out there that there are things he cannot know. And he even notes this in footnotes. He did the best he could, but there are certain things that remain to be seen.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
So what he tried to do is he tried to recreate the investigation by interviewing everyone involved from the prosecutors to the police to defense team members to members of the state's attorney's offices. And one of the things that I think we had previously noted and he highlights is the original prosecuting attorneys who were.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
at the time in the office, I believe, were never interviewed by the Syed review team. That's highly unusual. Wouldn't you think that you would want to talk to the people who are closest to the case, the ones who prosecuted the case, especially if you're going to allege things like Brady violations?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And part of the reason is the jury doesn't have to say. The jury's free to talk. I think, I don't know Indiana-specific law, but before deliberations, before a verdict, they can't talk to anybody, right? But afterwards, it's up to them whether they want to talk to the press. But the jury never has to explain its verdict. The verdict form is very clear. There are two boxes.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
guilty, not guilty next to each charge. So I haven't seen the verdict form, but I assume there are four charges and then you just check a box, guilty, not guilty for each. And that is it. You do not have to explain which particular pieces of facts help support which elements. That's why jury nullification is a thing.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
Absolutely. We were asked last year, I think, what is one case you would like solved? This was before there was an arrest, and I think both of us said the Delphi case. For those of you who are just tuning in, in the last couple of minutes, the jury has come back with a verdict on all four counts guilty.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
The reason a jury can nullify and what jury nullification means is to not follow the letter of the law is because the jury does not have to explain It's reasoning whatsoever. And this is part of our judicial system where they get to take in all of these facts. That's why they deliberate in secret. Because whatever goes on in the jury room, it's for them to decide.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And they decide how they're going to come out on each of these things. And that's why when on appeal, the judge isn't going to try to get into the juror's minds of how they decided certain things. They're going to look at the record and see if it supports it.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
Richard Allen is guilty of the murders of Liberty German and Abby Williams, and this is such a relief because if you've been following this case, Yes, while the trial's been, you know, three weeks long, which is a lengthy trial, sure, in any sense, but it is the circus surrounding this case that has led to where we are today.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
You don't get inside the jury's head. The jury never has to explain what they do. And because of that, it's the totality of the circumstances, which is why, by the way, when you're the prosecution, you lay out such a fulsome case. You don't know what's going to resonate with the jury. But also on appeal, you want to give lots of avenues in which to let the jury reach the verdict.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
Because this is kind of a choose your own adventure, right? There's not like one specific path where it's like the best kind of case doesn't just give you one piece of evidence for every element of the crime. It would be great if you had like a dozen reasons to find for each element of the crime.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
Because then on appeal, the judge is like, there's so many different points that the jury could have latched onto in order to find support for the verdict. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And let me say something on this because it was kind of made an issue in opening and closing statement, but there was nothing in between by the defense about the FBI stepping out of the case. The fact that the FBI stepped out of the case is merely administrative. There was nothing going on in the case as we saw from trial.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
It was essentially a cold case until a volunteer found that the Richard Allen tip was kind of misclassified by name, right? What is that, 2022? Yeah. It was 2022, right? So five years after the case, essentially the case was cold for about four years after they ran down all the leads in 2017, there was nothing.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And I know many of you have been holding with bated breath because we have said before the prosecution presented a very clean, very tight case. very evidentiary based timeline to show that Richard Allen was guilty of these murders. But there was a lot of noise in the YouTube and Reddit world, you know, sparked with conspiracies devoid of evidence that should have had no bearing in the courtroom.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And so when there's nothing going on in a case because there are active murders and abductions and terrible things happening, resources of law enforcement get diverted away to more pressing matters, right? Cases, the longer a case is sitting, the less likely it's going to be solved. So they're going to redirect their efforts to a case that just happened in hopes of solving that case.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
So the FBI was like, you don't need our ballistic services. You don't need our DNA testing services. We've done all the autopsies. There's nothing for us to do. So instead of resting on our laurels over here, we're going to redirect our resources elsewhere. It was not a get out of Dodge FBI situation. But let me tell you what Brett just said is totally true.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
So when other law enforcement entities that came in to help start stepping away because essentially they're signaling the case is cold, it is very easy for that case to lose momentum. And for the jurisdiction who holds that case to say, we're going to put it into our cold case files because we do have so many other cases we need to pursue. That's not what happened here.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
They continue to have volunteers staff over and over and look through thousands of pages of tips and following up, looking at the same thing that they thought they would see nothing new in over and over, despite basically everyone agreeing that it was a cold case. So if anything, the fact that the FBI stepped out of the case shows that the case was cold, but that.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
Indiana State Police and Delphi, they didn't stop pursuing this case. And this is like against all odds. Seven years out for this case to be solved is phenomenal. And it was because of them keeping pressure on it, keeping attention on it. The family's keeping attention on the case. And I think a lot of coverage as well. Good and bad comes from true crime coverage.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
But I think the attention kept on the case allowed this case to have the inertia despite it essentially hitting a stone wall.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And what was stark to me is I'm sure the prosecutors in this case, just like the defense in this case, are very aware of the media attention and all that's being made and said and commented on on this case. And they've probably heard it. The difference between the two sides is you can be aware of what's being said about your case, but not be distracted by it.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
Based on what the prosecution presented at trial, which was exactly the type of case they needed to present, clear. Everyone could understand the case. They probably were aware of the conspiracy theories they had to have. Some of it made it into the filings, like the Odinism theories. But they weren't distracted by what people were saying online and what people were saying on YouTube channels.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And they just kept their focus and prosecuted this case like it was any other case which they needed to do. And I think because of that, you didn't get confusion among the jury. It was a very, very clear case. You know, I use the word and I hated using this word a couple episodes ago. saying this was an ordinary case. It's never ordinary when two young girls are brutally murdered.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And today we get to say that seems that justice has been done, that the noise that is devoid of evidence has not made its way into the jury deliberation room. And they delivered, I think, what is a just and very defensible verdict.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
But it's ordinary in the sense that this is a straightforward case and the evidence is there. Once they cracked open the case, once they found the tip in 2022 and they plowed forward, it was a straightforward case in that the evidence was all there for them. And if it was prosecuted right, it should have resulted in a guilty verdict. And that's exactly what the prosecution did.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
They didn't get distracted by the media. They didn't get distracted by... kind of shenanigans happening that had nothing to do with the merits of the case. And they kept their eye on the ball, which was to get justice for Abby and Libby. And they kept the focus on the victims. And they kept the focus not on anger towards Richard Allen, but always on justice first for the victims.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
Those kinds of prosecutors, I think it really comes to the jury that there's not some vendetta against the defendant. Anyone can be that defendancy as long as it's the right guy. What we care about is bringing that person to justice for the horrific murders that they did. And that's what they did here.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
So that was one thing I wish I could have seen because it seemed like it really came through in the prosecution's presentation. But note the difference in how the media circus affected each side of the case here.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
I think that's exactly right. Yeah. While we all may feel incredible relief that justice has been done today, it doesn't change the reality of what their family faces every day, which is that they don't get to live each day with their daughters and their granddaughters and their sisters. And that is a travesty.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And so while the relief ends for us, right, that the trial's over and this was the result that we thought the evidence pointed towards, remember that. There is never ultimate relief for the family. They now get to be vindicated that they've taken one monster off the street and he cannot do this to another girl because I think with the viciousness of this crime, he dreamed about it for a long time.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
This was not going to be the last time he did something like this. And because of their persistence, this monster will not recreate this tragedy for another family. But we've lost two young girls who, by the way, they've been heroes always and they are heroes to this day.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
If we didn't have that video, not that we couldn't convict, but it made it so compelling because the girls knew what was happening and they captured it. They did all they could to help law enforcement solve it, just like McClellan said in his closing. And I think that's absolutely true. They did their part and they are heroes. And so remember that when, you know, we're cheering about this.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
Lives are forever changed on all sides. Richard Allen's life has changed forever. Now, he chose this path, so I feel no sympathy for him. But he has ruined the lives of all of his loved ones as well. But also remember that this one day relief for us does not mean the end of just a horrible tragedy for Libby and Abby.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
Absolutely. And one just procedural thing, I've seen a lot of questions like, you know, why isn't the gag order lifted? You know, what is it about sentencing? Procedurally, the verdict is a big deal. The trial is a big deal. We have a verdict now. There are a lot of post trial motions that are going to be filed. Do not freak out when you see a bunch of motions filed. That is always the case.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And this district court case is actually not even final yet. He has to be sentenced first, and then there's a final judgment in the case before any appeals can take place. So procedurally, this case still has some time to go, and it is not over by the standards of the court. So a verdict is a big deal, but it is not the end of this case. So when you see additional action, it's clickbait.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
They're not overturning the verdict. It's too early for that. There's not even a final judgment in this case. I would be shocked because of all the reasons we said at the beginning of this episode, if this verdict is ever overturned. And it's in huge part because the prosecution put forth such a strong, tight case, and it was efficiently and well run by Judge Gull. And
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
The defense asked for a lot of things to be on the record and in writing that it ties their future arguments. So they are bound by a lot of the things that have already happened so far. So that's all to say, today's a big day. It's not the end of this case. But also be wary of any additional news you may see in the coming months that say,
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
you know, verdicts revisited, et cetera, something like that. So I don't think that will be the case. But, you know, thank you guys for joining us on this journey. I mean, this is one of the first cases we covered, and we feel very, you know, invested in this case for many reasons.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
Probably like many of you, we want to live in a world where monsters like Richard Allen don't exist, but the reality, based on our own personal experience in law enforcement, is they're all too common. This is but one of so many cases.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And the more we know, the more we know how to look out for our community members and to look out for people who look like the rest of us, who live among us, who could be monsters who are just hiding behind a corner waiting to devastate lives. But with stronger communities, I think we can really be a protection for our community against these types of monsters.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And today there's one fewer monster on the street.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And just because we all know it's coming, this is my plea to all the funders out there who fund all the media of these documentaries. Please don't make a Richard Allen is guilty or wrongfully convicted documentary. Please take those funds and help go solve another case. I really mean that. You know, this this case, there's been justice. Thank God.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
We don't need to waste money on people who are very clearly guilty in an entertainment way. He's entitled to the appeals that he wants. Let him have those. But don't click on those documentaries. Don't read those stories and read the court filings. They're all in writing. They're fantastic court filings in this case.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
But don't give money to the people who want to just throw money at the innocent camp or the wrongfully convicted camp for this case. Direct those funds to worthy cases. There are so many tragedies like Libby and Abby's that are unsolved as well. Let's go make a difference in those cases instead of digging a hole that doesn't need to be dug here.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
well thank you guys for joining us on literally no notice um and i just you know everyone who's been covering this case who's been waiting in line to get in to give us coverage i appreciate their time because i know it was really difficult to be able to get information to the outside world we did not sit in the courtroom at any point but we benefited from the reporting
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And we hope that we've been able to give a little insight on the procedural posture of this case. And for one, I am I'm so deeply relieved for Libby and Abby. And I thank them for, you know, letting us talk about their case in order to make much bigger points about true crime, about the judicial system.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And I hope this is a turning point for conspiracy theories of, you know, the cops are always wrong, prosecutors are always crooked, whatever is coming out of this case. I hope this shines such a light on what good prosecution and what good investigation and what good family members and community members can do in a case to bring justice when there's been a horrible tragedy.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
Thank you guys for following along with us. And Brett, do you have any last words on this big day?
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
Amen to that. Well, to Abby and Libby's family, we continue to think about you because we know that this is just a new chapter in your grief. And thank you guys for allowing us to be part of this journey. And until next time, I'm Alice.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And this is The Prosecutor's Legal Briefs. Thank you guys for your thoughts and prayers. For those who may not know, I had a baby last week, and he is very cute. He's still in the NICU. We are hoping we get to bring him home this week. So that is the hope. But all of you NICU parents,
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
brett included i just unless you go through it you just don't know what it's like so you guys are incredible because it is a special special kind of struggle where you literally have no control and you just really appreciate everything about each day of your health and whatnot. So I really appreciate being here with you guys. But he's doing so much better.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
It was really, really rough at the beginning. And I'm sure many of you have been through that same thing. But it was not fun to kind of live hour by hour. But now we're no longer living hour by hour. We're just waiting for the days until we can feel better.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
No, I think that's exactly right. Look, we've always said trials are live beings. There's not a script that everyone follows. That's what makes trials so exciting. And it's also why a lot of defendants decide to go to trial because it is not a pre-roll of the dice. You don't actually know what witnesses will say on the stand. You have a good idea because you've probably interviewed them.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
You have reports to go off of. but they are live human beings responding to real live questions and real live cross-examinations. And because of that, lawyers are having to make strategic decisions every second of every trial, which is why ineffective assistance of counsel is such a high bar.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
Because if we take away the ability of lawyers to make strategic decisions during trial, you essentially take away the tool of the lawyer. Think about a composer. A composer, if you take away, if you say you have to create a symphony in four-four time with these four notes in this exact pattern every time, you're not going to get creativity. You're not going to get a symphony.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
That's what trial work is like. It is more an art than a science. And so when someone says that's an effective assistance of counsel, think, is there any strategy within that? Are there multiple reasons for why an attorney who knows the full display of information would make a decision different than what you think is right? Lay person who is sitting on Reddit, you know, watching from afar.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And so be wary of those types of claims. There's a reason that they're filed all the time because it sounds great and doesn't mean there aren't real meritorious ineffective assistance of counsel claims. There is not one here. Judge Gull was very careful.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
Most of her decisions erred on the side of incredibly conservative in the sense of there was an arguable way she could have let some of the things that she kept out in fall. by the prosecution. She did that to appeal proof the case. She did this because she didn't want to give an inch to the appeal process. She wanted to play.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
She was, in fact, I would say unfair to the prosecution in order to appeal proof this case. Her decisions were not all over the board. They were not reckless. If anything, they actually constrained the prosecution more so than the defense. And that is a strategy a lot of judges want to do because they'd rather be safe than sorry. And I think we see this in this case because Judge Gall came ready.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
I'm Alice. And I'm Brett. And this is The Prosecutor's Legal Blues. Welcome back to The Prosecutor's Legal Briefs. I'm your host, Alice, and I'm joined, as always, by my relieved co-host, Brett.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
She knew exactly what was going to happen. She knows that an appeal is going to be coming because they already mandamized her. This is an extreme case. Very few cases go up to a state Supreme Court through mandamus and then go back for a trial court. This whole entire procedural posture of this case has been extraordinary.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And Judge Gull is an experienced chief judge of this court and knows what she's doing, knew what kind of lawyer she was dealing with, and decided to play it very safe with respect to the appeals process.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And remember, the court that ruled on these is the court that would be ultimately hearing the very end of these appeals, the Indiana Supreme Court. They jumped all the way to the Indiana Supreme Court. Not every case before trial, before verdict gets to go all the way to the Indiana Supreme Court. So they've already known and seen how this has all played out.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And that's who would be hearing these appeals ultimately if they decide to go all the way there.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
Yeah. In a lot of ways, like we said, Judge Gall learned from the first instance when she kicked off this defense team. Remember, we had we'd been really hard on her. We said that decision seemed to be made behind doors without a record.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And if that had stayed the case, I do think there are some appeal points that would have been appealing or made me a little bit nervous once a verdict was reached. But this is the key, what Brett just said, that three-day hearing. We have it all on record. This isn't going to be a situation where we find some new witness 20 years later. We get to revisit the case like in the Adnan Syed case.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
They had everything at their fingertips. That was essentially their best trial case. And it's all before any future appellate court in that record to see. And because Judge Gall was the one to oversee it, remember, we've always said the district court judge who hears the witnesses, who is actually in the room able to assess the credibility of witnesses.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
There's a reason those factual findings are given. There's a lot of weight given to them because that's the judge sitting in the room. It's very different than reading cold, hard words on a paper. And so she's made that record. It is the record forever to be revisited in the future.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
Whatever they find in the future, they have to contend with this three day record that didn't exist before all of the removal stuff, by the way. So I think what ended up it ended up being an amazing silver lining with respect to appeal proofing this case.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
And here's the thing with the directed verdict. Yes, it's like you ask for it in every case. But in all of our legal briefs we've explained to you, typically when there's appeal cases, you have to also show prejudice. So let's say that they don't ask for a directed verdict in this case at all. And maybe there's case law saying if you don't ask for it, it could be ineffective.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
Then what you do is you look at the fact that they didn't ask for directed verdict, if that is in fact the case, we don't know yet. And then you look at the record and the appeals court gets to say, well, this is overwhelming evidence that supports a guilty verdict.
The Prosecutors
Bonus Episode: A Verdict in Delphi -- Today is the Day
So even though they should have asked for a directive verdict, there's no prejudice here because no judge, no reasonable judge with this sort of record would ever grant a directive verdict. So bad job, attorneys. You really should have asked for it, but it wouldn't have made a difference. And we're not going to redo everything. This is not a court of technicality. This is a court of equity.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Real quick question. I feel like I should know this. This has escaped me. What are the effects of plutonium on your body? I know people have asked this. What are the effects both physically but also mentally in terms of having these high levels? I don't think we do studies of this on people because it would be inhumane to expose people to this high level of plutonium. But do you know?
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I know you guys know this. I have young kids and I see the way they look at my phone. Parents out there, you can relate. Our kids want this thing we have in our hands all day. And I'm always throwing out excuses why they can't have a phone themselves.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
It's not that I hate phones or that they can't benefit from one, but the risk of what they can get unfiltered access to, that's just a no way for me. We cover lots of cases where we tell you these phones and unfiltered access to the internet and the world beyond is just too dangerous for our kids to be exposed to. Yet with Gab, they can finally get a phone without all the risk.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Hi, Brett. Just the type of energy we need after long days. But you know what? If there's a case that really gets me fired up, it's this case, because I don't think we've ever done a case like this where we are literally following the breadcrumbs to try and figure out what happened to Karen Silkwood.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And that is really interesting, because I think that is another aspect of the conspiracy that people think is like, whatever's happening to her, there's multiple potential conspiracies happening. But what we don't think is happening is that the amount of contamination is causing her to believe these things are happening.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Something else might be, but the mental effects are not coming from the plutonium itself. And also then goes to kind of
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
question why and we'll get more into this in the theories why if someone was trying to poison you they use plutonium when the effects are basically just death but later on not necessarily immediately so you don't cut someone off right away like say a car accident would car accident shut you up immediately right because it ends your life immediately whereas plutonium takes a lot longer and leaves a pretty long trail because of the it's hard to get rid of plutonium hence all the
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
contamination, decontamination, recontamination. You can see exactly where the contamination is going or coming because of that radioactive footprint.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Which is so bizarre because it was pretty obvious that it was spiked. This couldn't pass through her body and then originate in her fecal or urine samples. It seems that whoever did this wasn't playing the long game because when the test came back and you could quite literally see the plutonium with the naked eye, you would know that someone had spiked it. So what was the purpose?
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Indeed, indeed. I've been thinking about this ever since our first episode because I kind of hope, Lexi, if I die under mysterious circumstances, I hope I am able to leave behind a trail of crumbs because Brett, you're going to have to hold the bag. You're going to have to solve the mystery of my death.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Like, in other words, whoever did it would be found out. I think this is a really interesting thing because maybe the person didn't have to play a long game, but why not, right? That's kind of the question here.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So despite all of the crazy, very unexplainable things we've just talked about, several months later in April of 1975, so what is that, about five months after her death, the FBI investigations closed. Done. Allegedly, the FBI had a series of meetings with Kerr-McGee and closed the investigation without really looking into the true cause of the plutonium poisoning and ultimately Karen's death.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So we've worked a lot with... agents and files and whatnot. And some of you may be thinking, well, maybe it was just closed to the outside and whatnot. When you close a file, it means you're done. Now, you don't have to always make public when you close a file. So maybe things are going on that we don't know of.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But in terms of when agencies close a file, what that means is we are no longer pursuing anything within this because there has either been no evidence to further the investigation or the there's no crime or something like that. But it's not like we'll put it on hold because we've heard of other cases, like when the FBI publicly announced that they closed the D.B. Cooper case, for example.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
They had it open for like decades, right? And they can still have it open. They can also reopen it. But you don't usually close a case because that's an affirmative thing that you do for a case. If you have a cold case, you can just leave it open indefinitely.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So this is an interesting move because this is only five months after her death that they decide to close the case, as opposed to maybe 50 years later, you can understand why they close a case.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
As we always say, go to the primary sources, right? Because you're right. When you search this case, that's all I see. They never investigated or they didn't investigate, but it's nice to be able to see what was actually done. Now, this brings us to November 1975. The U.S. Senate announces that they're going to launch an investigation into Karen Silkwood's death.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Now, this investigation, by the way, I also hope that if I die a mysterious death, I get the U.S. Senate involved too.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
open an investigation now this investigation is apparently shut down after a secret meeting between a senator and the chairman of the board at kerr mcgee so this is not looking great or it's looking great for your conspiracy theory right the u.s senate's like i don't like what's happened in terms of if the prosecutor and the investigators are corrupt or part of this conspiracy we're gonna look into this
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But then here comes the board chairman of Kerr-McGee, the employer. And all of a sudden, the investigation's closed. So then this brings us to December 1975. Kerr-McGee announces that they'll be closing the Cimarron site. This is the site where Karen was working. So if we're talking about a cover-up, that's quite the cover-up to just close it all down, walk away.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So about a year later, November 1976, Karen's family files a federal lawsuit in the United States District Court for the Western District of Oklahoma, so federal court, charging the Kerr-McGee Corporation with liability for Karen Silkwood's contamination and charging Kerr-McGee security chief James Redding and his associates with a Civil Rights Act conspiracy that was meant to violate Karen Silkwood's civil rights.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So even if no criminal case was brought, her family files a civil lawsuit against the company.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Yeah, and if you remember, the last time we were looking at a series of just unexplainable contaminations by Karen Silkwood as she was in the midst of this fact-gathering, document-gathering expedition to basically show all the lax standards and kind of bad practices of her employer, Kerr-McGee. And last time we kind of had a cliffhanger, remember?
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Karen was the one who kept on getting contaminated, but when we left off last time, two other people joined her in the contamination realm, her roommate, Sherry, and her boyfriend. And so this is getting bigger than just Karen. If we're talking conspiracies, like more and more people are getting harmed here, right? So let's go back to November 11th, 1974.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
The FBI would later speculate that the tow truck that pulled Karen's car out of the ditch had actually caused the damage to her bumper. This theory was supported by the lack of paint transfer on her car.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And this theory was bolstered by the location of the damage to the bumper, which was so low on the bumper that any car involved would have had to be lower than the Honda itself, which if you've seen the Honda Civic, It's a relatively small car. It's not an SUV. It's a sedan. And so it had to be a car that was even lower to the ground than the Honda Civic.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
They further speculated that skid marks such that they existed were from previous accidents. We already talked about how she did get in an accident just on October 31st.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
they further said in the official report from crime scene investigators that cast doubt on the existence of skid marks at all so maybe that's actually just been something that's been said into the story so much that we accept as true but maybe there actually weren't even skid marks
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So if Kermagee caused the accident, they would have had to have the opportunity to remove or at least ensure someone removed the documents Karen had compiled before anyone else could get their hands on them. Again, if you look at the picture of the car, it's pretty mangled. It's a mangled metal mess.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So you'd have to think they somehow knew where the documents were going to be and were able to extract them from that mangled mess after the accident, before the police, the ambulance, the tow truck, everyone came. The most difficult part of this theory to believe, though, is the number of people who would have had to been involved to make it work.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
At that point, we now know that Karen, Sherry Ellis, her roommate, and her boyfriend are all contaminated. And so they are sent to Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory in New Mexico for further testing. And a series of tests were conducted on the trio. Ellis and Stevens' results showed that they had a small but insignificant amount of plutonium in their bodies.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Some people allege that the Oklahoma Highway Patrol were a part of the conspiracy and made sure that Kerr-McGee was notified of the accident first, giving them time to remove the documents. Additionally, there are accusations that the FBI investigation was effectively shut down because they were in cahoots with Kerr-McGee. And same with that congressional hearing.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Though this seems crazy, it's not impossible to believe, especially when you're talking about a powerful nuclear corporation. that does involve the federal government. So if you ever were to have like people in high places be in a conspiracy, you can imagine why it would be say for nuclear power that has more implications than just some private business trying to make money.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
It has national security concerns. It has national dominance concerns as well. But you'd also have to believe that basically Karen Silkwood, just a couple years earlier, a stay-at-home mother of three is now the target of a massive murder conspiracy involving the most high up in the government, as well as one of the largest corporations in the country.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But Silkwood had roughly six to seven nanocuries of plutonium, 239 in her lungs, which was about half of the maximum permissible lung burden for workers. In other words, she had much, much more in her body than her boyfriend or roommate. It's alleged that while Karen and Ellis were at the facility,
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Kerr McGee continued to search their apartment, looking for the documents Karen had collected, proving that they were violating numerous health and safety laws.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I mean, it makes a lot of sense because of all the unexplainable things that we've looked at in terms of the trail crumbs, right? The crumbs of contamination. It makes no sense. I couldn't put two and two together how she could be decontaminated. And if you remember the way she gets contaminated, there's recontamination from when she clocks back in.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So that would make sense if there really was a hole in that glove box that she would get contaminated again. But it's when she starts getting contaminated when she leaves and comes back. There should be no plutonium outside of the plant.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But when she comes back, she's been decontaminated and she clocked out as decontaminated and comes back after going to a meeting, after going home as contaminated. That's where it doesn't make any sense. And I understand. Understand why people would think, of course, the company she's pursuing to take down or at least to expose for bad practices would have a motive, right, to do something to her.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But not in this way. Really think about everything that would go wrong for Kermike if the person who is trying to expose them of their bad practices is Kermike. The one contaminated. That's the last person you want contaminated. And because of the things we said earlier, this would absolutely draw the ire of investigations and whatnot. And in fact, it did, right?
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
There was a congressional investigation that opened and then quickly closed. Probably, I think, because they saw... documents, maybe from the lawyers, maybe from the FBI report, in terms of showing pretty definitively what was happening, or at least that the contamination could not have come from within the plant.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But let me put a slightly softer bent on what may have been going through Karen's mind, because Karen obviously is not here to defend herself with this theory. I think in her mind, there was no way out. That's why I asked all those questions about the plutonium's effects on the brain. The plutonium wasn't affecting her brain.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I think her brain was already in a very desperate place when she started contaminating herself with plutonium. I mean, she is contaminating herself at levels that will be life altering, potentially life ending, certainly life ending at some point. So when she reached the level, when she reached the point of even thinking up contaminating herself...
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I think her mind had already gone to dark, dark places that she couldn't pull herself back from. Whether it was from the Quaaludes, whether it was from, remember where she is in the time of her life. Just two years earlier, she had been a stay-at-home mother with her three young children. Young, young kids.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I mean, so young that I think they were around the age that they probably can't really remember their mother. That's how young they were. It doesn't matter your life situation, whether you wanted kids or not. There is... And she certainly did. She stayed at home with them.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Two years later, all of a sudden she is in a new city, divorced without her three children who had been her entire life two years earlier. Put on top of that, she's still young. She had been on this trajectory of immense academic success that got cut short with her marriage and then the quick success of pregnancies and becoming a stay at home mother.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
All of this with a whiplash of going back to it, but not at the levels that she was previously on track for. She was previously on track to be the ones leading this type of research, not just a low-level employee. And when she gets there, she wants to be a part of something bigger. That's her whole life. That was the profile that people who knew her had built around her.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So she has this emotional power. personal life shift that I can only describe as whiplash for anybody under regular circumstances. Then you add on top of that the work pressures, the not sleeping, which having currently being in the stage of no sleeping with a newborn certainly changes your mind. You don't need external factors to make you act even crazier.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Not sleeping is a form of torture, as we know. And then adding the Quaaludes on top, which do have mental and physical effects on her. I think at this point, before she even does the first contamination, she is in a dark place and she doesn't think there's any way out.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I think when she starts going down that road of contamination, she may not have seen it clearly, but there was kind of only one path. You don't really turn back from that. especially when I do think she knows that Kerr-McGee found them out. And I do think she truly believes in what she was collecting.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Right. So the next day, November 12th, 1974, Karen calls the OCAW officials in D.C. after she returns home. One thing I want to note about when you're assessing whether it is the conspiracy theory, because look, if the facts point towards the conspiracy, I'm all there for it. So one thing to note here, Karen is being sent off to Los Alamos for testing, but she's alive. She's well.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I truly believe that she thought there were something bigger than her, that Kerr-McGee was endangering other people's lives. But she, like you said, she wasn't even high enough levels to be able to access the documents that could probably prove this if they existed at all.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And so in some ways it was like, whether she thought of it that way or not, in her mind, it may have been stress, but also I am simply showing the world what I know they are doing, but I cannot prove.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And so in some ways, I think she thought of herself, this may be too fantastical, but somewhat like a sacrificial lamb, but I don't know that she ultimately thought this would lead to such a violent outcome.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
She's not expected to be at Los Alamos for a long period of time. So Kerr-McGee knows she's coming home and coming home soon. If I were Karen, the first thing I would look for would certainly be the documents, right? Like that's my prized possession. If I have been away from my home, the first thing I'm going to do is make sure my documents are there. And if they're gone, then...
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And remember, you know, putting yourself back there. Of course, those of us on the outside, not in the midst of whatever she was going through, can say, of course, you could just pull out and be like, you did it. You definitely did it. But I can't find that you're too good. You're a massive nuclear company who has the backing of, you know, high level federal officials.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
You've obviously been able to hide the documentation. Right. You can say that. We know that from the outside. But remember what she's facing. People don't like her around her. If she fails at this, not only may she lose her job, she's brought in the New York Times. She's brought in OCAW union officials from D.C. She's brought in. She's kind of sounded the big alarm that can't be unrung. Right.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
She's like, here it is. She's not only going to lose her job, but everyone around her. She had to start her entire life over at age 26 in a new town, new coworkers, new friends, new boyfriend, new roommate, everything. And she would stand to lose everything yet again in a span of two years.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I mean, hopefully none of you have had to face losing everything in your life in the blink of an eye, but it seems like she'd already gone through that. And facing down... Kind of this next path of potentially losing everything yet again within two years of just having lost everything. I can imagine how she got to such a dark place mentally and emotionally that led her down this path.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
There's going to be hell to pay. I'm going to raise the alarm. Look, this goes even deeper. They sent me away and now they're looking for documents. So I note that because there's no expectations Karen's going to be gone for, say, an extended period of time. When she comes home the next day, Karen calls the OKAW officials in D.C.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And remember that rumor that she said and then someone apparently called into the radio station saying that someone had stolen plutonium? And we had said when we mentioned that fact, whether it was true or not, whether she had heard the rumor or not, where she had heard the rumor is how would she know about it? And there was no evidence ever of it.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And it very well may be that she knew that much plutonium was stolen because she was the one who took it. That would give her the access to be able to do all of this contamination outside of Kermagee's conspiring.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And remember, another time in the timeline of contamination where it seems like someone may not have exactly known how plutonium contamination works, double backs, is when her roommate and her boyfriend are tested and they're not contaminated. Then lo and behold, what happens? They're immediately contaminated later that day.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
It was almost like someone gave her the answer was like, well, two plus two doesn't add up here. So what happened? And so she goes and fixes it. And all of a sudden they're contaminated. You would think that sleeping next to her the night before is what would contaminate her boyfriend. Not after he'd gone to work and she had gone to work and tested contaminated.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
that later on he would be found contaminated. Kind of all these strange, not strange, it makes sense if it's intentional, but that doesn't appear to be the touch transfer contamination that you would expect would have happened.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
and she informs them that Kerr-McGee did not get the documents she had gathered. So if they had been looking, they didn't find them or they didn't take them. And she was ready to turn these documents over to the New York Times. OKAW informs Karen that New York Times reporter David Burnham would meet Karen at the Holiday Inn that was northwest at 8 p.m.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And obviously, you know, 20, 20 hindsight. But remember, a lot of the people who were at that meeting at the bar before she left noted something about her. They said that she was crying and that she seemed not well in a mental place to be able to drive herself home. Obviously, it would be emotional to be driving to meet Burnham to pass these documents over the New York Times.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But you would think after she's worked so hard for this, this has been something she's worked on for months. It would be more of a euphoric experience.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
experience like finally they're going to be exposed everything i've worked for is coming to fruition this is no longer going to be my burden anymore now it's going to be the new york times the world's going to know what's happening rather than a crying i'm breaking down here because this is what she's built towards you would think it would be the opposite effect
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
more of a euphoric effect rather than a crying too upset to be driving herself type of thing. We don't know what was going through her mind, but if she knew what was about to happen, what she had to do when she got in that car, because she didn't have the documents to turn over to the New York Times, she knew before she got to Oklahoma City, this had to all end.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I too would probably be crying because she knows exactly what she is going to do. May explain her emotional state.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
in Oklahoma City on November 13th, the next day. So it's all set in motion. She comes back from testing. She has the documents. She says they never got them. I'm ready to turn these over. This is all moving quickly. The next day is when everything is going to be blown wide open for Kerr-McGee, right?
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
New episodes of the City Confidential podcast are available every Thursday, available wherever you get your podcasts.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So at 7.10, Karen leaves the Hub Cafe in her 1973 white Honda Civic with those documents in hand. And she gets on Route 74 and heads towards Oklahoma City, which is roughly 30 miles away.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
some time about seven twenty to seven thirty so just about ten to twenty minutes after she leaves the cafe taryn's only about seven miles from crescent when her car went from the right lane of the highway across to the left off the road and onto the shoulder. When she does this, she hits a ditch and smashes head-on into a concrete wall of a culvert. This accident, as you can imagine, is fatal.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
It crumples the front end of her car. If you see a picture of her car, it's hard to look at because of just how devastating it is to her car. There's really no way I think anyone could have survived it. And the car was found laying on its left side, so driver's side. At 8 p.m., Oklahoma State Highway Patrol are notified of this crash, which is about half an hour afterwards.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So, you know, you would probably have to depend on someone else to call that in, but it's not immediate that the Highway Patrol are notified. And it takes them about another 15 minutes before Highway Patrol arrives on scene. So by this point, it's probably about 45 minutes or so after the crash.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And when they arrived, they noted that Karen's legs were broken, there was dried blood on her face, and she appeared to be dead already when they got there. Despite there being marks on her bumper indicating that she may have been hit from behind and forced off the road, they determined that this was likely a single car crash resulting from Karen falling asleep at the wheel.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
An ambulance arrived around 8.30 p.m., so 15 minutes after Highway Patrol gets there, and the ambulance transports Karen to Logan County Hospital, where it's confirmed and pronounced that she is, in fact, dead. Meanwhile, Karen's boyfriend, Drew, and the New York Times reporter, David Burnham, were waiting for her at the Holiday Inn in Oklahoma City.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Based on when she left, they expected her to arrive by 8 p.m., And they kept waiting and waiting. And by 9 o'clock, they knew something was wrong when Karen didn't show up. So they started calling around, and one of the union leaders informed them that Karen had gotten into an accident and she had died. What a terrible way to find out that your girlfriend has died, by the way.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Like, really, by them just trying to figure out what's happening. So when... Burnham and Karen's boyfriend, Drew, hears this. They get into Burnham's car and they drive to the site of the crash. But when they get there, it was peculiar because the accident scene had already been cleaned up. And all that was left, the only sign that Karen was even there, was one of her paychecks laying in the mud.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Karen's car had already been towed away. And that folder of documents that she had in hand ready to turn over to the New York Times, well, it's never been recovered.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Right. It wasn't just Wayne Jenkins. I mean, it was the entire task force, right?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Thank you so much, Ivan.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Truthfully, so we have recently discussed one of your filings. Those of you who don't know, he's obviously now the new state's attorney in Baltimore, and he filed the motion to withdraw vacature in the Adnan Syed case. But that's not all he is. You guys, this man has done it all, seen it all. We have so much to learn from him.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Ivan, something that our listeners, we have lawyers and non-lawyers who listen. But they all care very much about the rule of law and about getting justice for victims. This is something you have spent your entire career pursuing in so many facets.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
I mean, numbers don't lie. Those are some incredible statistics of violent crime dropping precipitously in such a short time. And like you said, when there are real consequences, real teeth to law enforcement, to the prosecutor's offices, it is a transactional world out there.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Can you give us just kind of a brief overview of what drove you to become a lawyer and the path that you've been on that ultimately leads you to your current position?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
When they know that they have to bring their toothbrush, the risks are much higher and we are all rational beings, including violent criminals, as you've demonstrated. Well, if one person can do so much in a city like Baltimore, where we know violent crime has historically been incredibly high, there are state's attorneys and DAs all over the country.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
What do you think is one of the biggest barriers to offices in Being able to achieve what you have, is it willpower? Is it resources? Is it, you know, having enough prosecutors or law enforcement out there? What do you think is standing in the way of every state's attorney or every DA out there being able to, you know, diminish violent crime on their streets the way you have?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
And that is what we thought was really unusual. When we reviewed the motion to withdraw the vacature, we said that it would have been just as simple, even if you had done all that work, to ultimately say in a one line, withdrawn, without having to explain your decision.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
But instead, you wrote this kind of opus, incredible emotion detailing every step, which is very interesting because rarely does the public get such an insight into an internal investigation of a prosecutor's office, but also it clearly puts it calls out individuals for potential, you know, very wrongdoing and certainly not the way that prosecutors are meant to act.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
So there's the describing to the public what you all did and why you arrived at your decision. But, you know, what what made you decide to essentially walk everyone through every seemingly every step of what you did in incredible detail with such transparency?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Well, thank you for taking the time to be here. We have so much to learn from you, and it has been such a treat just hearing about your experiences. Brett, is there anything else you'd like to ask? I'm sorry, I just get so excited asking questions.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Thank you so much. And you as well. We'll continue to follow your career and see you back next week. But to let you get to your vacation. Well, guys, you heard the man, the myth, the legend here. We hope he is, in fact, back very soon. But go read his incredible motion to withdraw the vacature in the Adnan Syed case. We've told you that and we posted it.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
There's lots of other great work coming from his office. But until next time, I'm Alice.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
And this is the Prosecutor's Legal Briefs.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
I'm Alice. And I'm Brett. And this is The Prosecutor's Legal Please. Welcome back to the Prosecutor's Legal Briefs. I'm your host, Alice, and I'm joined as always by my stately co-host, Brett.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
I mean, this is actually true in this instance, because what we are really excited about, I know you guys have been waiting for this. We have the famous he calls himself infamous. I'll let him do that. Ivan Bates, who is currently the state's attorney of Baltimore. You've heard his name in many contexts.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
That's right, because what happened for your client?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
I told you guys that each of his experiences could be probably an entire documentary. And speaking of documentaries, you kind of glossed over one of probably the most interesting things that you had a part in, which is the Gun Trace Task Force. And this is so interesting, everything you're saying about Sergeant White, where each police officer should be treated based on the evidence.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Just because you wear a blue uniform doesn't necessarily mean there's always police misconduct. But then kind of on the 180 as well, you were instrumental in uncovering probably one of the most egregious cases of police misconduct through the Gun Trace Task Force, which I believe there's a documentary on that you all can watch. It's called I Got a Monster. I think it's like Apple TV, Amazon Prime.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
I don't know how a person of his stature is talking to lowly Brett and myself, but we are so excited to have you, Ivan. Thank you for being here.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
I watched it. And you guys, when you start a shot with Ivan Bates, you know this is going to be a good documentary. And this was truly one of the most shocking cases that you stuck by. So I'd love to hear how this came across your desk. And I think this is a perfect example of showing how justice is blind. When there's misconduct, you call it out. When there isn't, you defend vigorously.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
But tell us a little bit more about your role and how you came across the Gun Task Force and the craziness that then unfolded from there.
The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
My husband's in law enforcement, and my salary, this is the first year I'm at $115. I'm an engineer for a major telecommunications company. But that comes with a big caveat. I am a contract. I'm not directly on quite yet. That's right. So we have a large savings as well, and we've always been able to live within the means of his income, and mine has been...
The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
Hi. I have to say thank you to both of you and to the whole Ramsey team for everything you do.
The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
I have a question today, kind of a fun one. In 2011, I moved back from college. I'm from Fremont, California, and my mom said, hey, the car plant that used to be called New Me, dead for years, a little electric car company from across the bay is going to start building cars there. Let's invest. And through $1,000, all I had at the time, into Tesla stock, And last week, I'm upwards of $380,000.
The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
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The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
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The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
Thank you. So now, you know, happily married, we owe $288 on our home. And the question is, Whether we sell with the potential, of course, nobody knows what Tesla's capable of to pay off the home or if we hang on to it.
The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
This year it will be $175,000. Okay. So here's the question. I'm a big fan.