Alice
Appearances
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
I mean, we already moved forward. You are involving the radio and you have all these feelings and all these things going on in your mind. I just want to make sure you're okay because we're definitely okay over here.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
As long as she doesn't want my husband, I'm good to go. Okay.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
I mean, no, that's fine. I just want our girls to be able to play together and get to know one another. Like, that's all that matters. Yeah.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
Hello. Oh, hi. Is this Alex?
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
I'm good. I can't complain. I'm just getting ready for this party we have in a few days, and I'm definitely not prepared. Oh, my gosh. I know how that goes.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
Yeah, and... You don't seem surprised by this. I mean, shoot, he's not looking to date now, if that's what you're wondering. We're married, so... Okay, hold on, hold on.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
Do you feel this way because you still have feelings for him or I'm genuinely confused. No, no, no, no. Or anyone would be uncomfortable. Like, I mean, he's told me all about you. Okay. So, you know, he told you about this. Yeah. He said it was a really, it was a really hard breakup. When you got dumped, he didn't want to hurt you. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I understand. I'm a woman first.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
I totally get it. No, he, first of all, I didn't get dumped. I dumped him.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
Well, listen, honey, everybody gets dumped. It's okay. It's no need to be embarrassed. It's nothing to be embarrassed about. Okay, what? I mean, I haven't, but I can imagine the pain of getting dumped. Okay. Wow. No, no, no, no, no. That's not what happened. And I know denial comes with it. And no, you have nothing to worry about. Our daughters, they like each other.
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
Okay, do you, like, see a therapist at all? Or have you ever considered that? Because it's not, like, you definitely should. Oh, my God. Okay. Wow. Wait, what is all this?
Brooke and Jeffrey: Second Date Update
Awkward Tuesday: Ex-Expectations
Oh, yeah. No, we my husband and I talked already. We know what's going on. Like she's someone of the past. And I just I feel like she may still be a little hurt.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
Welcome to classwithmason.com. I'm your host, Alice, and today we're diving into an insightful essay by Oliver Goldsmith titled The Man in Black. This essay gives us a candid look at the society of Goldsmith's time, where economic and moral decline left many people struggling in poverty and despair.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
After hearing the sailor's story about how he lost his leg, the man in black, moved by his bravery, immediately offers a shilling. He doesn't hesitate, his heart compels him to help, despite his earlier harsh words. The same pattern repeats when he encounters a poor woman, tattered and carrying two children.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
She's singing a sad song that blurs the line between weeping and singing, and the man in black, deeply moved by her plight, instinctively reaches into his pocket to help. Unfortunately, he realizes he has nothing left to give and his inability to aid her weighs heavily on him. through these encounters, we see the depth of the man in black's character.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
While his exterior is cold and severe, his actions reveal a man of deep compassion. He may not openly admit his generosity, but his spirit shines through in moments of quiet charity. Goldsmith uses this character to remind us that sometimes human goodness is hidden behind a harsh exterior and that empathy and kindness are often found in unexpected places.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
That's all for today's discussion on Oliver Goldsmith's The Man in Black. I hope this gave you some valuable insights into the complexities of the essay and the world Goldsmith was critiquing.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
Goldsmith doesn't directly call for reform but instead introduces us to the mysterious man in black as a means to expose these societal flaws. Through this character, Goldsmith not only shares his own perspectives but also critiques the norms of the time, advocating for a more compassionate and empathetic society.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
Now, let's talk a bit about Oliver Goldsmith himself. He's widely known for his literary masterpieces, including the novel The Vicar of Wakefield, the play She Stoops to Conquer, and his essays in The Citizen of the World, from which The Man in Black is taken.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
In this essay, Goldsmith adopts the persona of Oltangi, a Chinese philosopher, to narrate his interactions with The Man in Black, who represents a complex combination of humor, humanism, and contradiction. So who exactly is the man in black? On the surface, he comes across as a miser and a misanthrope, but beneath that exterior lies a kind heart.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
Though he appears cynical, his actions often reveal his true nature, a deeply generous and empathetic soul. For example, when all Tangi and the man in black are out walking, they encounter a beggar. Though the man in black criticizes beggars in conversation, he secretly slips a silver coin to the man, all while pretending to remain indifferent. This act of charity goes unnoticed or so he thinks.
Class with Mason
Ep 4: A Note on Oliver Goldsmith's Creation The Man in Black
He reprimands the beggar for what he believes to be a false sob story, but his actions betray his words. This tension between his outward persona and his inward compassion is a recurring theme throughout the essay. One of the most telling moments occurs when the man in black meets a sailor with a wooden leg.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
I do, yes. I'm part of the leadership team for the youth section of East Surrey Performing Arts.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
Many, many times. We've had a great deal of fun and put on numerous performances here to great enjoyment and with the involvement of literally hundreds of children over the years.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
Well, you've got railings and barriers and none of us general public are going anywhere near it for the moment. But as we peer in through the window, we can see lots of scaffolding bars and planks and... Yes, it does indeed. Look, as though work will start shortly.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
Obviously this letter was extremely good news. It was celebrated by the Harlequin Support Group and it's been a long time coming. So really I can say that this is the first bit of good news we've had in a year. So we're very, very pleased and at last we have some indication of what some of the timings are. We will obviously keep the pressure up to make sure the timings don't slip.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
But as soon as those survey results are out and we know what we're dealing with, we feel that all the groups, the Reigate and Racial Society, the Harlequin Support Group, all the community arts groups involved should come together and help the council put the right plan together so that we get the best possible arts and cultural provision that we can do.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
I think that's a good way of putting it. I hope we've been polite but persistent. And I hope we've raised the profile of the issue. And I'm very grateful to all those of you who've commented, written in, written to your councillors and so on. Thank you so much. Yes, we were frustrated by the 11 months that apparently nothing happened.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
I know the lease is complicated and I know there were some sort of legal wrangles with Aviva, the property owner. But at last we've come to a sensible, pragmatic decision to at least get the survey done. And we need to know what the scale of the problem is that we're dealing with. So that is a great first step.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
Absolutely, I agree. It is the right time to do that survey as well. I would hope that the council has been doing... Condition checks on its buildings throughout its tenancy and over the years, so I hope there are no surprises there. That would be very disappointing if there were.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
There could indeed. As I say, it'll be a year empty next week, the one-year anniversary of its closure. So, yeah, let's hope there are no horrible surprises when those surveys are completed.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
Yes, the public consultation event scheduled for October has been mentioned once or twice, but yesterday was the first time a date was put on it.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
We don't know where, and we apparently know when, but in the...
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
views of the harlequin support group this is really too short notice if you're going to contact all the groups that have hired the harlequin in the past and get this news out across the across the borough properly you need more than two and a half weeks the risk of doing it on the 5th of october is that you'll get poor participation and also it does seem a little idiotic to have a consultation when we know the survey results are only going to be five weeks
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
It does. It does seem that we're now so close to knowing the survey results, it seems foolhardy to go ahead with a consultation without that knowledge in hand. It could be very unproductive. It could turn into just a talking shop that... discusses things that are completely unfeasible and therefore turns out to be a waste of time and money for everybody.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
I would recommend, and the Harlequin Support Group would strongly recommend, that this event is deferred until after the survey results are known. I mean, the biggest... outcome of that survey will be either the rack is so severe that the building has to be demolished, or the rack is much more minor and the building can be repaired.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
Until you know even that, a consultation is not a good idea just at this moment.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
Yes, I completely agree. I think you could have two events. An alternative is an offer that the Harlequin Support Group have made to the council leader, which is to do a survey before we hold this event. You're talking a public survey as opposed to a structural survey? Yes, I'm sorry. A survey among the residents and the users of the Harlequin to see what...
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
they need from their arts and cultural provision.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
They are. They're offering their services for free. They would design the survey, conduct the survey, analyse the data and then feed the findings back to the council. And our thinking is that this very useful information could help structure and formulate the design of the public consultation to make it a better and more productive event.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
Some smaller scale events, perhaps. can be held in community halls and churches and school halls, but the larger ones that I'm involved in, like musical theatre, we're really struggling. The Dorking Halls is closed for refurbishment for the second time next year, and it's just had a closure.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
Something else. Epsom Playhouse is going through some refurbishment. as is the capital at Horsham. The Horth in Crawley is fully booked for two years, they tell me. There's absolutely no slots at all. So for events like musical theatre, large-scale productions, orchestral productions, Red Hill Sinfonia and such like, We have very few options. We can go to the Chequermede in East Grinstead.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
It has one or two slots and we should be going down there in the summer.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
We've already experienced that. We lost some volunteers who couldn't travel to East Grinstead last year. We lost some cast members that we'd cast in very, very decent roles that then couldn't do the show when the adults moved out to the theatre in West Horsley. So we do lose people and it's heartbreaking for them.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
54: Harlequin latest news and reaction, our RunReigate preview… and more
For some of them, the theatre and our societies have been the bedrock of their social life and their friendship groups for years. So it This cannot be allowed to go on for too long. It will decimate our groups and it will be very difficult to build back up if this lack of a seriously sized theatre goes on for too long.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
55: Stories from Run Reigate runners as they crossed the finish line, the big Redhill Arts Takeover week… and more
I'm Jill. I'm Alice.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
55: Stories from Run Reigate runners as they crossed the finish line, the big Redhill Arts Takeover week… and more
5K.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
55: Stories from Run Reigate runners as they crossed the finish line, the big Redhill Arts Takeover week… and more
You haven't had a good look at it yet, have you? Yeah, not really. So it's the... It's a primary park just behind us. Yeah, the... Primary school. So where's that going to go, Alice?
The Planet Reigate Podcast
55: Stories from Run Reigate runners as they crossed the finish line, the big Redhill Arts Takeover week… and more
Probably in my bedroom.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
55: Stories from Run Reigate runners as they crossed the finish line, the big Redhill Arts Takeover week… and more
Yeah.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
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The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
It's going to be perfect for all the trips I plan to take this spring and summer with my kids to the beach, to the lake. It is going to make travel feel so luxe. I also am just loving their European linen styles from $30. And of course, their washable silk tops, which I can pack with me when I go to court and still look great going out to dinner in them.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
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The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And you bet I'm packing all these awesome items into my new expandable suitcase and It is fantastic. They even have a kid's version that I got my kids to match me when we have our carry-on bags that match, are beautiful, and are durable. For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from Quince.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Go to quince.com slash prosecutors for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash prosecutors to get free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash prosecutors. So as we do in kind of the more complex cases, we go through the players in the case before we go to the timeline.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So I think that's worth diving into here because the many characters that fill up this tragic story, each of them really could have a book written on them. But we will introduce you to them here. You will learn much more about them as we go through this case. And so we will start with the name that has become synonymous really with the West Memphis Three, and that is Damien Echols.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
He, at this time, was a teenager with an affinity for black clothes, heavy metal music, and alternative religions. And it's worth noting that West Memphis was a... typical kind of Bible Belt town. And so a lot of people viewed these things as outside of the mainstream or outside of the ordinary.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Damien was on the radar of the police immediately after the bodies of the three young boys were discovered. Damien has struggled with violent tendencies and mental illness, having been in and out of Arkansas health facility in the years leading up to the crime. Damien did his co-defendants no favors, particularly Jason Baldwin. Jason Baldwin is one of Damien Echols' best friends.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Other than being good friends with Damien, Jason was really a typical lower middle class kid from a broken family. He had a minor criminal record and Jason was a relatively poor student, though he was still in school at the time of the murders. But he did excel at art and. If the killings had not occurred, that's almost certainly where his life would have gone in the direction of art.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
But Jason was Damien's best friend, and the police assumption, not without reason, was that whatever Damien was involved in, Jason would be involved too.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Hey, Brett. It's good to join you for what will be an epic series, and I don't mean that in epic like rock on, but literally epic, because this might go on for decades. We may never finish this epic. Okay.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I'm not kidding when I say I avoided Paradise Lost because my heart couldn't handle it until research for this case. And while I was watching it, Brett got, I don't know, no fewer than 300 texts while I watched it as in like, what is happening? Is this for real? Are they acting? Just wait.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I mean, they really don't make documentaries like that anymore. I'll say that because everyone it was so today, I think people knew they were being filmed at the time. It was leading up to the trial. Obviously, even at the time before the trial had happened, this was a case that gripped the nation, gripped the world. But they were all very like self-aware they were being filmed.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
and seemingly acting for the camera, but not acting for the camera. And I'm not sure I've seen many documentaries like this in terms of the characters within them being so open. I think that's exactly how they were even when the cameras were off.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I remember I think, Brett, you told me close your eyes in the first scene. That didn't help because it does start with the horrific crime scene photos, but they are littered throughout the entire documentary episodes.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So if you don't want to see it and there is no shame in not wanting to see it because it is unfortunately something that you will never be able to unsee, partly why I think I've been dreaming about this case for weeks at this point. I have a lot of thoughts about using those types of photos for the world to see, as we've talked about in the Delphi case. But just be warned.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And honestly, it's a hard documentary to listen to because a lot of the narrative is in writing. So you do actually have to read the screen. Just be warned. It is worth watching, but you cannot unsee many things.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Yeah, yeah. Alice is right.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And we know what's going to happen to these three boys. They're eight-year-old boys. You see little strands of just their absolute childhood-ness, such as the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle, but they are also wanting to be bigger than they are. And this is absolutely tragic. So I know we say this about all victims, but here and I do think there's a lot of talk, of course, about the victims.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
But this hits very close to home. I have a seven year old. I know a lot of you have children these ages. This is very, very it is still painful for victims.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I guess same generation as the victims here. And I remember hearing about Paradise Lost so much so and hearing about how it will continue. scar you really with the opening scene from the very first moments of the documentary will change your life and just completely change your view of the world. I wasn't ready for that.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So that was Stevie. Next is Christopher Byers. Chris was the son of Melissa Byers and his stepfather, John Mark Byers. Chris was kind of a hyperactive, rambunctious kid who often broke the rules and drew the wrath of his stepfather, John Mark. His mother often found clothes hidden under his bed caked in mud.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And when his mother would confront him about going to Robin Hood Hills against her wishes, he would deny it, which is why he was hiding his clothes because they would get muddy when he went into the woods.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
But she, like I think a lot of mothers, while the woods seemed like an absolute paradise for an eight-year-old boy because of water when it rained and this pipe bridge and being this mysterious forest. Not so exciting for parents. You can't see quite in there. It's thick with brush. There are rumors about people coming off the interstate going in there. It butts up to some low income housing.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
They're just things that you can't watch out for. And so understandably, his mom really didn't want him playing there, but he just couldn't stay away. It was too fun. And then the third of the victims is Michael Moore. Now, Michael was the leader of this group of boys. All the boys were in the Cub Scouts together.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
But Michael absolutely loved the Scouts so much so that he would wear his uniform whenever he could. He was, in fact, wearing his Scouts uniform the day he died. And those are our three young boys who we will talk more about. But as you can see, they were what you would expect eight-year-old boys to be. They were thick as thieves with each other. They biked. They had fun.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
They had a streak of independence, wanting to defy their moms and dads at times, as kids do. But they were also just having fun with each other. They were kids. Next, we are diving into the characters who are going to investigate this case. So there's Detective Ridge. He's one of the detectives on the case. Ridge is the one who first found the first of the bodies.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So there was obviously a massive search to look for these boys all over, including focusing on the woods. And he was the one who uncovered the first body. He also conducted an interview with Damien on May 10th, shortly after the boys were found, and he interviewed Jesse and Miss Kelly when Jesse confessed.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And because of that, actually, Brett, I avoided this case like the plague for my entire life. So before we researched this case and research of this case was a I don't know, how old is this podcast? That's basically how long we've researched this case. I stayed away from this case until Basically, we committed to doing this.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So obviously there will be more characters, but those are kind of the main characters to give you a little bit of a lay of the land. And now let's talk about locations. Because unlike some of the other cases we've covered before, like Asia Degree, where there were cars involved, transporting people far away, things like that.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Here we are talking about a relatively compact geographic area where most of the characters we just talked about are biking or walking to these areas. So the... Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And I think that's a good thing because I do not I really have not followed this case for decades. This was not something that I knew a lot about. I didn't read about it every time it came up because I knew it was a horrific, horrific murders of these boys. I just I couldn't bring myself to learn about it growing up because they were right about my age all the way until now.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So because of you all, I've done what I didn't want to do, which is to learn about this really tragic case.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
The fact that this will come up as well, the fact that these kids, I mean, they're teenagers, carry around things like knives is pretty common as well. Right. This may not be the neighborhood that you've grown up in, but we'll see this come up in terms of violence was all around. Carrying a knife was not that out of the ordinary. He certainly wasn't the only one who carried a knife.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
This is like when you go to a super fancy restaurant and they give you like unrelated palate cleansers. Like my favorite sushi restaurant gave you like sorbet between different meals. That's like what those Wednesday episodes will be. In other words, you're going to get a lot of the prosecutors. I hope you're here for it because I'm here for it, Brett. You know what?
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So as you can tell, we've said that I certainly have heard a lot that Damien was on the police's radar. Now you have some background of what that means when people say he was on at least law enforcement's radar. Now let's fast forward to May 7th, 1992.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So the Arkansas Human Services receives an allegation that Michelle, Damien's sister, has been sexually abused by Jack Echols since she was seven years old. At the time of this allegation, she's 14. So the allegation is she's been abused by Jack basically for about seven years.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Now, Echols claimed he may have been overly affectionate with Michelle, but he denied the sexual abuse charges, though he did admit he'd previously been charged with indecently exposing himself to his older daughter, a different daughter than Michelle. So there's certainly smoke there, if not fire.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
We've at least committed to doing this podcast for the next year until it finishes.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Pam doesn't believe the allegations, but Damien is described as having a low opinion of Jack and believes it's in fact true. Now, this upsets Pam, who reports that Damien has little regard for others and only wants to use them and bring harm to others around him. Now, it's important to know the context of where people's comments are coming from.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So Pam is Damien's mother, obviously, but she is not wanting to believe this very serious allegation that her daughter has been abused, sexually abused for seven years by someone she had married and who had adopted her two kids. And when Damien stands up in support of Michelle, believing her allegations, she's
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
This draws the ire of Pam, who says these things about Damien saying, you know, he doesn't care about other people. So knowing, you know, is this out of anger? Is that really what she thinks? You know, would it be different if he didn't support Michelle's allegations? Keep this in mind in terms of what we hear about people as they kind of move through this timeline.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Right. And it's worth noting that his own mother is basically standing up for this man that she is now divorced from that he doesn't think very highly of. So then just a couple weeks later, not even two weeks later, on May 19th, 1992, Damien Echols is arrested after he and Deanne run away to be together and break into an abandoned trailer where they're going to be married.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Now, Eccles is questioned by Jerry Driver, who's a juvenile officer for Crittenden County. Driver believes something satanic is going on in the area. And he also suspects that Damien Eccles is involved with whatever the satanic thing that's happening. So he questions him about it. And Eccles tells him and another detective that he and his best friend, Jason Baldwin, are involved in the occult.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
But he is not a Satan worshiper. Rather, he worships Hecate and Diana, who I think he says, like, God is a woman, something like that. But he doesn't. He denies being a Satan worshiper. Now, Eccles describes himself as a gray witch. Although Eccles is not a Satan worshiper, he tells the officers that there is a group in the county that is.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And that police report reads, quote, Mr. Eccles was asked what was the extent of the cult activities was in Crittenden County and the West Memphis area was. And he told us that it was fairly extensive, that there was three or four groups in West Memphis itself.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
they were further along in their activities than he may or may not have been and by that he said that he meant that they had reached the end of their animal sacrifice portion to receive power and that the next logical step would be the sacrifice of a human
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
From this point forward, Driver has a bad feeling about Damien after he's talked to him about the occult and all these things and interviewed him, arrested him for breaking into this trailer. So Driver says that he has his eye on Damien.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So basically, after he interviews Damien and Damien tells this elaborate story of, you know, three or four different cults moving towards human sacrifice. Driver spends most of 1992 looking for evidence of what he believed was a satanic movement afoot in West Memphis. The former football coach drove the roads on the nights of full moons looking for cultists. He was trying to do his job.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
He had a feeling. Now he gets this elaborate story from one of the people he thinks is involved in the occult. self-acclaimed to be involved in the occult. And so he is doing his investigation. He is on the lookout for signs of the occult.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
We should really start a poll.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And I honestly, I didn't know this is what IQ tests were meant to test, like imagination. I thought it was just like processing skills. I also thought this was very strange. But as you can see, whatever the amount of time it took to take this test, which is Not that long, right? It's not like this is from his therapist who he sees hours weekly or something like that.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
This is the takeaway from the person who writes up this report. So on September 2nd, 1992, Damien is admitted into St. Vincent's Hospital in Oregon over concerns that he is suicidal. You can see that he has lots of touch points with both mental health facilities as well as law enforcement.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
He gets admitted for being suicidal because he locks himself in a closet with what his grandmother believed was a knife. But she also says it may have been a spoon. It's a pretty big difference, spoon and knife. It's a huge difference. But what this tells me is that they don't know how to deal with him, right? If you think it's a spoon, you're going to say, oh, it's a spoon.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I'm going to deal with this. But this more sounds like you have a child perhaps that you don't know how to deal with who may be out of control and you're seeking help. So could have been a spoon, could have been a knife. Either way, I think he needs professional help is what I'm hearing from the adults in his life here. His parents are also reportedly concerned about Damien's interest in Satanism.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And so whatever it is. He's admitted to St. Vincent's Hospital. You know, you'd have to know more about what's going on in his life, his evaluations. But I will say these two particular instances sounds to me like you may have an out of control teenager you don't know what to do with.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So you're kind of seeking other options for help, whether because you don't want to deal with it or you don't know how to deal with it. So on September 4th, 1992, while Damien is at the hospital, he's just there for two days, which leads me to think it probably wasn't, at least the doctors there didn't take the suicidal ideation too seriously because he's discharged.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So according to Exhibit 500, which details much of Damien's struggles with mental illness, his family no longer wanted him to live with them, which tracks with two days earlier when I said he locked himself and they sent him to the hospital. And because they don't want to live with him, he is sent back to Arkansas.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And Damien, it's not like his family packs his bags for him and, you know, throws him a goodbye party and they all drive down together and find a good place for him to live. No, Damien, really barely an adult, really still a teenager, gets on a bus and goes to Arkansas by himself.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
It's a long bus ride from Oregon.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
You know, in a lot of ways, it's almost like, don't really care if you make it. It seems like it, right? It's like such a long trip. He has been known to like, you know, skip school, run out of places. And you're going to put this kid on like a cross country, essentially, half cross country bus and essentially say, good luck. September 10th, 1992.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Unfortunately, it appears that when Damien returned to Arkansas, he actually violated his probation that resulted from the earlier incident at the trailer park. So because now he's back in the jurisdiction and he had violated his probation, because remember, he'd already been arrested a couple of times. He was then arrested again and sent to a detention center.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
While he was in the detention center, he supposedly sucked the blood of a fellow inmate while rubbing his blood all over his face. Because he did this, and just a note, if you are to do this, one of the first things the people who run that facility will do is they'll probably send you to a mental health facility, and that's exactly what happened to Damien.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So this is the same mental facility he'd been in after his arrest. He's there for about two weeks, and he's discharged on September 28th to his adoptive father, Jack Eccles. Remember back to when the allegations about Jack Eccles molesting his sister? Damien didn't have a very high opinion of Jack.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
But here he is being discharged from a mental facility after allegedly sucking another person's blood to the man he doesn't think highly of is going to now take care of him. Now, Damien promises not to harm anyone else. And that brings us to the end of our timeline of 1992.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So I think we've actually covered a lot of ground, but not enough ground to make this less than 38 episodes or whatever.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
We've been very disciplined to get to start. We've been so disciplined in this first episode. I'm not sure that we can stay this disciplined throughout.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
No, except if you didn't ever want to hear about this case, don't worry. Like we said at the beginning, we'll have other cases. We have a whole other podcast, Legal Briefs. We have lots of episodes coming at you. But also, I don't think you've heard this case covered this way before. So if you're looking to learn something, there's a reason this case has gripped generations at this point.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And there is a lot to learn. And I'm still wrapping my full arms around everything. But please do come back and let us know what you think.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And I will say this, on episode one of, I don't know, 68 episodes, and I've read through everything, everything. I told Brett this a few weeks ago when we were deciding what day we were going to start recording. I was like, better be soon because I am having dreams about this case every single night. I wake up in the middle of the night thinking about this case.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Probably I won't even look at them because, frankly, I was going to say I can promise you I will not look at them because I again, you cannot unsee them. Don't go search for them if you don't already have them either.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Like with Adnan, same way when I started, right? It was like, is it just a guy? Like it's so, it feels so meaningless. You know, is this just like three bored teenagers killing three little kids and it's just so sad and that's it? Or I always want to like assign larger meaning to what this means for our life, you know? And I'm not there yet. That's what I mean.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Like when I finished Adnan, I got to something bigger, right? Like it was not just...
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Well, I know. That's my point. I didn't know how I felt about it when we started Ad Night. So Baby Boy really is sick. Like, at first I thought it was something else, but he's definitely sick. We know that. But guess what? He broke through two teeth and he's not even four months old. This is the earliest any of my kids have had teeth. Insane. Like, is he a vampire? What is happening?
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And as we start to record, I can truthfully say that I am an absolutely no camp. I am along the ride with all of you as we dive into the trial transcripts and the evidence and talking about it with you, Brett. I know my thinking will develop as it does in most cases, but right now there is truly no camp. And here we go. Let's dive in. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
This is the last time before West Memphis 3 and everything is a whole new chapter. Let's go.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
So many neighborhoods. Not that West Memphis was perfect. West Memphis lies at one of America's great crossroads. Not only does it border the mighty Mississippi River, but it is at the confluence of I-40, which runs from California all the way to North Carolina, and I-55, which runs from Chicago to New Orleans. In other words, very big interstates.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
In a way, West Memphis lies at the very heart of America with all the problems one might expect. Along with goods, drugs flowed along the interstate. Transients pass through, as you have whenever you have large interstates, and residents would often see strange people they didn't know hanging around the area.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
particularly in the little copse of woods bordering the suburb where Stevie, Michael, and Christopher lived. Those woods, little more than a football field in size, were all that separated this neighborhood from the interstate and the Blue Beacon truck wash. A diversion canal called Ten Mile Bayou ran through the forest with a pipe bridge across it.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
from off that canal ran little ditches that only filled with water when it rained as it had in the weeks leading up to may fifth nineteen ninety three nearby overlooking the woods were the mayfair apartments which was a low-income housing area
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
And you guys, Phelps is the real deal. He didn't just glow in with the wind when true crime became popular. He has been part of the true crime space for 25 years. He's consulted on over 350 hours of true crime television, executive produced documentaries, weekly series, and he's even written seven books about these true crime stories.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
He's a highly sought after expert and speaker for his extensive knowledge regarding historic events. and contemporary serial killers. Check out Crossing the Line with M. William Phelps weekly podcast and number one narrative podcast, Paper Ghosts from iHeartRadio, both executive produced, written, and hosted by M. William Phelps. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
Let's talk about numbers, guys. Traditional in-person therapy can cost anywhere from $100 to $250 per session, which adds up fast. But with BetterHelp Online Therapy, you can save an average of up to 50% per session. With BetterHelp, you pay a flat fee for weekly sessions, saving you big on costs and on time. Therapy should feel accessible, not like a luxury.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
With online therapy, you get quality care at a price that makes sense and can help you with anything from anxiety to everyday stress. Your mental health is worth it. And now it's within reach. We talk about this all the time. Therapy isn't just for big traumatic events, although it can be helpful in those situations. It's also just helpful to learn positive coping skills and how to set boundaries.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
I know it helps me empower me to be the best version of myself when I have to be lawyer, mom, podcaster, all the things in my life. Therapy helps me be the best me. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. It's convenient too.
The Prosecutors
299. The West Memphis Three Part 1 of ? -- The Unforgiven
You can join a session with the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life. Plus, switch therapists at any time. Your well-being is worth it. Visit BetterHelp.com slash prosecutors to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash prosecutors.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And so remember Ella, Ella took the car cause she's worried about her horses and she basically does nothing but drive like 500 miles because she later that evening arrives back at the family farm and she is the first of the Tromp family members to get home. So they've been gone for really just about a day at this point.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
But when she gets there, she discovers that she's not the only one there because the police were already at the family farm. The police found the home unlocked and in utter disarray. They saw years worth of farm's financial records all kind of just littered throughout the home, indicating that someone had actually gone through these records relatively recently.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
They also found the family's passports, credit cards, and cell phones, other than Mitchell's because we know Mitchell took his phone with him. And so to the investigators, it looked more like the Tromps had fled rather than left for a fun family vacation.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Later, maybe not surprisingly, Ella shows up in the stolen car where police are already at looking at what looks to be some sort of a break-in or disturbance, at least. She is charged with car theft related to, of course, the stolen vehicle that she drove all the way back home in. Now, Rihanna was also part of that carjacking, but she was not charged with car theft due to her mental state.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
That's this case. That is this case. Yeah. No, no, no. It's not a spoiler alert because you guys are going to want to stay around for the dot, dot, dot, because it is a mind boggler, shall we say.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or condo. It's about the home. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location and neighborhood. If you have kids, it's also schools, nearby parks, and transportation options.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
That's why Homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in-depth information they need to find the right home.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
So a lot is happening in a short amount of time and it's not going to stop. So on September 1st, the next day, the police are responding to the incident from the night before when they're notified in the early morning hours that the family's car had been located and it was reportedly operated by one man.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
This kind of tracks with it being Mark Trump since he was the one still in the car whereas Jacoba had left by public transit. Now, Mitchell, the brother, and Ella Trump appeared on Channel 9 News. So they're the two who made it home at this point. And they go to the news stations and they start asking the public for assistance in locating their parents.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Mitchell went on to say that his father was fearful someone was after him, which led the family's decision to flee. Now, Mitchell was not able to provide further details other than that this paranoid behavior of his parents had been ramping up and it was not typical of his parents.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Later that day, Jacoba, who'd been on that train, arrived at Yass District Hospital after a local found her just wandering around town. By the way, the Australians sound really nice. All of these people who seem to be having mental, you know, breakdowns are brought to the hospital, which is like very nice.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Truthfully, I mean, this is unfortunate.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Yeah. So now Jacoba gets to the hospital by the help of some local and she's examined and it was determined that her mental health wasn't of good standard. Such an elegant way of saying she's not doing well, right? There's something clearly wrong. You can kind of tell with what's been happening, the pattern of behavior.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Now, because she clearly needs some medical help, she's actually moved to the hospital in Goldburn so she can be with Rihanna. Remember, Rihanna, the eldest daughter, had been brought there in a catatonic state who also is getting psychiatric help. So the two of them are both at Goldburn Hospital and both are getting treated.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
So far, this has not been a fun road trip whatsoever. You know, you left with five, one quickly abandons, then two more, including a stolen car. But now we've accounted for four of the family members. Two are back home pleading for help from the public to locate their parents. Two, mom and older daughter, are in the hospital. Where is Mark?
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Right. Because all we know is there is that weird tailgating man charging incident. Break-ins may or may not be related to him. And then silence for at least a day. Then on September 3rd, around 5.50 p.m., Mark Tromp was located by police wandering down the road in Wangaratta, not far from the airport. And the police pick him up and they interview him for several hours.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
He's also assessed by a mental health officer. But roughly five hours later, he's not hospitalized like his wife and daughter were. Instead, he's released to the care of his brother, who happened to be a police officer. And maybe he was well enough mentally to be released, or maybe they felt okay releasing him to a fellow police member.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I think you're right. They do have that desire. But your little caveat there, you would like to do that when you didn't have kids. What if you threw your kids in the mix and brought them along? That would be crazy, would it not? But is that maybe what we're going to talk about today?
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
But when he's driving away, he doesn't just keep his head down and go. No. Mark turns around and flips the middle finger birdie to the media who are waiting outside, and they've been following this for days. And that's his response.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And obviously this, this may have been crafted by someone, you know, handling PR for the family, but just two, three days earlier, he had been wandering the streets and getting a mental health evaluation. And three days later, this is a very professional and put together statement, right?
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Maybe he didn't make it specifically, but this is not a situation where he say in a catatonic state in the hospital, and they have to wait to figure out what he has to say, whatever is happening. It's coming full circle or ending relatively quickly. This whole road trip started like a week ago. We're not talking about like a month long saga. So that's all the public gets for several months.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
That was in September of 2016. Now, in March of 2017, Victoria police actually withdraw the charges against Ella Trump for stealing a vehicle. They're allowed to do that. But remember, they never charged Rihanna because of her mental state. And now they actually withdraw the charges against Ella.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Now, six months after the incident, the entire family, and this is probably the strangest thing of this whole story. We just followed a saga of a road trip for this family. But I think the next part is what is the most puzzling to me. Just six months later, not six years, not 10 years, six months later, the whole family, all five members of the Trump family, what are they doing?
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
They're back to work. They're on the farm. They're doing well. No further explanation on the strange road trip has ever been provided, and they haven't skipped a beat. Mark Knight, he was the lead police investigator on this case, and he stated that there was no evidence of any drug use in the family. any financial problems or debts or evidence that they were part of any sort of cult.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Basically all of the kind of wild conspiracy theories that you may think have contributed to this wild ride for an otherwise totally regular run of the mill family who had this like one week blip in their life and then went right back to their totally normal farm life. There was really no explanation and that's it. That is the whole story.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Like, how do you get over that? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And kind of so did the public. There were no repercussions. Like, they did steal someone's car. Like, if they stole my Odyssey, what am I going to do without my Odyssey? Like, how am I going to drive my kids around, right? Like, this is... Yes, something happened. We don't know what, but... It's as if we just turned back time and this week never happened. Except it did happen and it was wild.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
There's so many letters. I didn't know that. Melbourne. Okay. Melbourne. I do have a little challenge, shall I say? Australians, get us to your continent. Please do, because I asked my kids today.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Such a wild ride and the public was drawn into it.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
So all of this leads to what? What happened? What can explain this? Like, truly, this story, there were so many off ramps that could have been devastating. I truly think at so many different points, Rihanna could have ended up somewhere very scary at the hands of people who took advantage of someone vulnerable. Same with Mark Trump. Same with Jacoba. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Exactly. You can teach us all the words. We'll call it a grammatical linguistic exchange. But my kids, I was like, where in the world would you like to go? You could go anywhere in the world. We just like play these questions, you know, conversation starters at dinner. And you know what they said? Unequivocally, Australia. And I was like, oh, wow, you didn't have to think about that.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
So get us there and we will come with a lot of little munchkins.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I was going to say, even if you don't have an explanation, because maybe you don't know that itself is an explanation, right? Like I have no idea what I just did. Like that, that itself could be a kind of a, I'm sorry. Right. But that has never happened. But I do wonder if that may be part of it is they literally have no idea.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I mean, this doesn't have to be even a dragon, right? Literally a couple of weeks ago, I think I told the story on another episode. We live in a place with a lot of tornadoes and we had all of my family visiting from a place where there are not tornadoes and they were sleeping at our house and the tornado was about to touch down. I was
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
quite literally texting with Mrs. Brett about the tornado because it was about to hit like our house directly. She was like, are you awake? Are you watching this? It's 2 a.m. And so we had 60 seconds to round up all the family members upstairs, everyone dead asleep. And I woke up everybody and said, get down into the crawl space. And like they were like, what? But no one questioned it.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And everyone just like ran in their underwear straight into like underneath the stairs. Along these lines, because I spoke with a lot of authority and a lot of fear. I spoke with a lot of fear because truly we thought the tornado was about to strike our exact house and it ended up striking very close to our house.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
But I got basically all these people to unquestionably follow me into a very dusty portion of our house with like 10 people in a tiny, tiny space. So you can see how this can happen. And they all followed me. Now, I just happened to have like weather and the news on my side. And I wasn't the only one saying this.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I was going to say, I only eat them when she's here.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
But from that perspective of waking up at 2 a.m., not knowing what's happening, but following blindly into a place we don't know without our phones, without our, you know, nobody brought anything with them. That's actually exactly what happened.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And here's another thing about this, right? When they're seeing these exhibitions of paranoia, the first thing they do is not to contact any family members for help or law enforcement. All the things they do after kind of things get out of hand. They go to the media. They call police. They report their parents missing. They clearly have extended family, including an uncle who is a police officer.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Kind of all these other things that you would...
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
think if you need help there are other resources you could reach out to they don't do that it's all very insular this makes a lot of sense if you are a very close-knit family so they're looking to each other and no one else is brought into this because it doesn't appear that like a neighbor is called it's like hi something weird is going on or hey uncle who's a police officer do you know what's going on here mom and dad have been acting a little paranoid they all basically buy in
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And especially when you're on a farm, I can imagine why you'd want to leave with the rest of the family. A farm takes a lot of work. In fact, it takes a whole family and probably other hired help. If everyone is leaving but you, you literally can't keep that farm running all by yourself. There are usually duties are split up. It's an all day, you know, sun up to sundown sort of situation.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Like, well, if you're all abandoning it, like, what is the point of me staying here? Because the farm's not going to thrive without you guys. Are we just like... abandoning this? Is this our next plan? We're all going together. So I can imagine kind of the very isolated feeling of not just this is my family, but the farm is part of my life and my family as well.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I can't be the only one to keep the farm running. So I guess we're all going together. I think that's really interesting that no outside help is asked for until kind of things just scatter quite literally to the wind.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And so kind of in that vein though, I know earlier you said the family kind of owes an explanation. I don't know. I think if this was, and it really does feel like this had to do with mental illness, we know at least two of the family members were hospitalized for psychiatric help. I can see how confusing and scary this is. And mental illness typically doesn't show up and leave right away.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Usually it is a lifelong process of figuring out what happened. And if that is the journey they're on, I hope them the best. But also, I do think you're so right, Brett, that it can be such a good reminder that when we see bizarre, bizarre cases, the man watching the Super Bowl and just leaves with a sandwich and ends up across the country, dead on the side of the road.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I don't know what happened in that case, but... you know we are drawn to these cases because they are bizarre because they seem to defy all sense and we think there is a bogey monster oftentimes there are serial killers are real but so much more often the person next to you may be just having a really really hard time
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And the good thing about this case is this family was having a really, really hard time. And I think they met angels all along the way who helped them all get home. And they get to be home. They didn't end up like a lot of the cases that we just mentioned. They lived to tell about it. And hopefully those who are close to them know and are helping them through whatever it is.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And also another good reminder, true crime and mental health really do go hand in hand in so many of our cases. We've talked about this in the cases we prosecute, at least in the United States. We don't have a really good defining line between criminal law and mental health help. Often they are intertwined. So one thing that may have prevented this particular episode of a week is...
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
If there was external help earlier than later, you know, at least it came later and it saved everyone and everyone is okay in terms of health. But we've said this before, like in the Elisa Lam case, and we've said this so often, but be on the lookout for each other. We are, you know, each other's greatest resource and also protectors.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I just want to go like hug that man who found Rihanna in the catatonic state. Thanks for not kidnapping her and murdering her. Thanks for getting her help. Thanks for not dumping her on the side of the road where someone else could have run over her or done something terrible to her.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Those are all, you know, scary situations to be in, but at least I think this case has a happy ending and we don't always get to say this in these types of cases.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I might not because I think I have two sick kids.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
We'll do one next week. I'll make it up to you guys.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
I'll make it up by doing West Memphis through by myself next time.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Are you just trying to troll people and think we're talking about the Trump family?
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
So no more political comments. I never. Or your secret embezzlement schemes. I never. But yeah, it's been one of those days.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
sorry guys we were we were gossiping everyone gossiping about not true crime related well actually true crime related it's true sorry sorry i was telling them that do your kids like is this i know your kids may not as much but you know my kids are like really into loveys like like their whole life surrounds their lovey not as much as yours No, not my kids. Yeah, exactly.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And the reason I'm late is because we couldn't find number two Squanto's lovey. And he is attached to his lovey. It is his like extension. And we looked in the entire house. You know what it was? It was on my podcast microphone. He came in here and like dropped it on here. So that's why I'm late.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
So obviously the entire story is in the timeline. I mean, this is a road trip of confusion, if you could name it that. And the most confusing part, if you lived through this time, because it wasn't that long ago, this was less than 10 years ago, nine years ago, each day brought more and more confusion. So as you walk through the timeline with us, walk through this immense confusion with us.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And like Brett said, I don't know if we'll have answers at the end of this, but this is so bizarre, especially when you're talking about five adults here, three adult children, you know, the youngest is 22. So, so truly not a teenager who are successful, happy. And. They leave on this trip. So let's take us back to August 29th, 2016.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
The Trump family, remember, they work on a farm seven days a week. Why did they do that? Not because they're workaholics, but because that's what a farm requires. Those of you who either work on a farm, know people who own farms, know that whether it's animals or plants, plants, in this case, it's a red current farm, there are things to do every single hour of every single day.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And you typically can't even take vacation. That's one of the hard things about being a farmer. And so for all of them to leave at once is notable in itself. And that's what they did on August 29th, 2016. They left their home in Sylvan, Victoria, in Ella, one of the daughters, Silver Pugio SUV. And they left... Not with the things you normally would leave home with. They didn't take their phones.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
They didn't take their passports. They didn't take credit cards. They quite literally had their bodies and got in a car and left. Now, the son, Mitchell, was the only one in the group with a cell phone. But just 19 miles into the drive, his parents made him throw his phone out the window near Warburton.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And so they were afraid that they would be able to be tracked via the phone, which is why they had Mitchell throw his phone out. So not only did they not bring their phones, but no one in the car can have phones. Turning it on airplane mode wasn't enough. We had to get rid of that entire phone lest they be tracked.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And I'll admit, I've tried to put myself in Mitchell's shoes. If everyone in my family got in the car and just started leaving, I would probably jump in the car, too. I don't want to be left behind. I don't know what's going on, but I'm probably going to go as well. Well, this road trip, like most road trips, you know, people get fed up with it just hours into the road trip. So by 7 a.m.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
the next day, Mitchell's like, I've had enough of this. You threw my phone out hours ago. I don't know what's happening. So he leaves the family in Bathurst approximately just 500 miles from home. So it seems like they've just been driving nonstop to get 500 miles away. And then he's like, you know what? Open the car door. I'm leaving.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Now, the rest of the family, the other four, mom, dad, two sisters, continue in the car. And a short while later, the rest of the family arrived at Jonalyn Caves, a popular tourist spot in the Blue Mountains of New South Wales. There, the remaining Tromp siblings, the two sisters, actually, they also decide we're done with this trip. And so they leave the parents at that point.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
So really quick note, three of the five members of this family abandoned this trip by the second day.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Hmm. Wanderlust wandering. What a good descriptor, Brett. I am so proud of you. You can't help but, you know, be drawn into my puns. So I'm proud of you.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
This is all incredibly puzzling because it's not like we're talking about two young women who have like a history of carjacking. So I don't actually personally know how to steal a car, but they pretty with some alacrity find a car to take, steal, quite literally steal. It's not theirs. They had no permission to take it and they take it. And what's interesting is what they say to the police.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
Right. Not my parents are acting weird or hey, I saw them drive in this car headed to this destination and I'm worried about them because they're they're close to their family. They're close to their parents. They live with their parents. But to just say that they're missing is really interesting because it then draws into question like what does it mean to be missing?
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
This is not meant to be an existential question, but you typically think of reporting someone missing if, say, I arrive home and my husband was supposed to be home and his car's gone and his wallet's gone and he's nowhere to be found and none of his friends know where he is. But this isn't the case. They left the parents and now they're reporting them missing.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
About time. It's been five years of doing the podcast. Yeah. It only took five years, guys. Yeah. Talk about wandering. Am I right? This is one of the strangest stories I've ever heard. And I kept waiting for, you know, like when you watch a kind of a mysterious movie and you wait for either the punchline or the answer. And it's just like a dot, dot, dot. And I just like scream at the screen.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
She just rests. She just rests. Yeah. She's just laying in the back.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
And so this is really interesting. This is about an hour after Ella leaves her. So either she becomes into this catatonic state within the hour of Ella leaving her or she was like this with Ella. And yet being in this clearly helpless state, her sister just leaves her as opposed to keep her in the same car to go back to the home that they both live in. I mean, nothing is adding up.
The Prosecutors
297. The Tromp Family Mystery -- Waltzing Matilda
There's just question mark after question mark that's happening right now.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
that's very prescient of him but also remember he interviews these people he's probably covered a couple stories of people who've summited and so there's a camaraderie he's seen in other groups as well that he sees lacking here but the fact that he had this like premonition that this lack of connectivity in the group would lead to death ultimately
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
is one of those kind of hair-raising details about this case that, like you said, isn't looking back 2020, but is something that he almost foresees based on the interactions, which just tells you that, you know, he doesn't know these individual people. So their disconnection from each other must have been somewhat obvious, right? You can see certain groups when they jive.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
If you've ever been part of a group, you know, I ran like one of those Ragnar races, which is one of those, you
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
tap in and out and you have a van and the rest of your team is going with and you see those groups kind of form and there's usually so much hubbub you're about to do something historic right you're about to summit this mountain four times before only have ever accomplished there's usually a buzz and an excitement and that's what bonds you and i can imagine that that's lacking here despite kind of the historic nature of what's about to happen
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And so that puts us right there with him. On January 20th, 1973, the group, along with their mules, hiked 25 miles to Casa de Piedra, which was a stone house at the confluence of the Vacas and Relinchos rivers. Isn't that crazy? They're already hiking 25 miles before they even start the summit. So this is a very demanding trail.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And in a diary entry from this day, John Cooper wrote that Eubank, who was the doctor of the group, was already sick. Not a great sign of things to come. Obviously, these trips, getting from the United States all the way to Argentina, is a taxing trip in and of itself. Change in culture, change in food, change in temperature and altitude, and then the exertion.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Anyone, if your immune system is slightly down, you can see how you can get sick. But this is a bad way to start a very difficult climb. The next day, on January 21st, 1973... The group reaches base camp, which is at 13,500 feet of elevation, and the group's guide, Miguel Alfonso, hired a 25-year-old climber and student named Roberto Bustos to manage the base camp.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
In that New York Times article we talked about, Bustos offered the following commentary about the group, who he was also just meeting for the first time.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
bustos recalled his early impression of the group a lot of high-quality gear but an unsettling dynamic there was no group attitude bustos said i was thinking oh i am on my own everyone has to take care of himself in my opinion they weren't ready for such a strange and big mountain as akankagua
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
It was expected to take a week or more to arrive at the summit, and doing so would require a lot of shuttling up and down the mountain, moving gear and adjusting to the changing attitude. So it's not one of those things where you just keep putting one foot in front of the other. There's so much gear, so much stuff happening that there is going up and down continuously.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Over the next few days, this is exactly what the group would do, shuttling up and down the mountain. They began by carrying gear up to Camp 1, which was at 15,500 feet elevation. So they're traveling up 2,000 feet of elevation with all their gear. At the end of the day, they didn't stay at Camp 1, but they return back to base camp.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Está muy frija. Muy frija. Did you say frija or frija? Is frija like female bean?
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or condo. It's about the home. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location and neighborhood. If you have kids, it's also schools, nearby parks, and transportation options.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
That's why Homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in-depth information they need to find the right home.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
It's so cold here, y'all. It is snowpocalypse, quite literally. Four days before this snowstorm hit, our entire town closed for two days. Like, preemptively, they closed it for two days. So it is muy fria. Está muy fria.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
But you know what? For once, they always say there's going to be snow and there's never snow. Like last week, remember they closed everything down and it was like 36 degrees and rainy. Today, we got like, I don't know what, three, four inches of snow, which is insane for us.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Yeah, and we still have a long way to go. So to already feel this fracture so early on is not great for the team dynamic. So on January 28th, the group continued on making it up to Camp 3, which is at the base of the Polish Glacier. So now they're just getting to the route that is so hard to get up to the summit. And it was at 19,400 feet elevation.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
They were stuck at Camp 3 for a full day because of a storm. Remember we said that the weather was really unpredictable on this path. But the next day, the skies cleared and this remaining group was eager to finally summit. So on January 30th, about, the hike to the summit was expected to take the majority of that day. And the group planned to eat breakfast and begin the journey.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
But Petroski lost his coordination out of the blue, which the group feared may have been the result of high altitude cerebral edema, which can be potentially deadly because it's a swelling of the brain. So in order to be safe, Alfonso escorted Petroski back to base camp. Remember, our doctor is not here.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
So this remaining group who doesn't have medical training, but they're at least one of them, a couple of them are pretty experienced climbers, recognize that suddenly losing your balance could mean something very deadly. But we don't have a doctor here in order to make that diagnosis. So Alfonso and Petroski are now going all the way back to base camp.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
So the remaining members of the group are Cooper, Johnson, Zeller, and McMillan. They decide to continue on despite the fact that the group was 50% smaller than when they began. And they had never climbed to this elevation before. And these four really hardly knew each other at all.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
You've lived here way more than I have.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And like we said, this is not going to be easy whatsoever, but they decide to forge on. By the time it got dark, the group still had not made it to the summit. And at about 21,000 feet, they dug the small snow cave on the glacier with their ice axes. so they could rest for the night. So they're not at a camp. They're in the elements.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
They had no sleeping bags, really nothing with them because the goal and really what they were supposed to do was to reach the summit that day. The night, as you can imagine, was incredibly rough. It was cramped and uncomfortable in this makeshift cave that they had dug out with their own pickaxes. And so Johnson and Zeller sat outside shivering in the freezing temperatures.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
The wind continually blew snow into the cave, covering Cooper with snow and baring his legs. So I don't know about you, Brett, but we have four people. Everyone's working hard to pick a way at this little cave. But two out of the four people end up having to sit outside. Doesn't sound like it's much warmer in the cave, but already...
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
I don't know that I'd feel so great if I was the one who had to sit outside in the middle of this snowstorm after being exhausted all day.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And you can imagine, I mean, obviously we're hearing about the story after the fact, but you can imagine this is the value of having an experienced guide, Alfonso, right? Because even though we can see it, even though Camp 3 is two hours away, those distances mean very different things when you're in such extreme conditions.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
I mean, this seems just incredibly foolhardy to be going, but in some ways they might be thinking, What options do we have? And we've already come so far. But you can imagine Alfonso, maybe if he was there, would say like, it may look close, but in where we are right now, this is much too dangerous to keep going. But all we have really are three people who barely know each other.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
who already bid farewell to another member of their group and said, good luck on your own. In a lot of ways, this is a recipe, so many recipes for disaster. But we are truly the blind leading the blind here.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Look, I'm not a, I'm not a mountaineer. I know a lot of people get lots of highs from climbing mountains, but I think the Kamar Dabin, Kamar Dabin, the Dyatlov Pass and this case alone have made me not want to climb a mountain ever in my life because that's got to be the worst thing. You do all that work, summit, see the beauty of the world and murder? I don't know.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Maybe we'll find out by the end of this.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And he realized that he hadn't really seen any of that. It was a trick of his imagination. So he hadn't seen the dead soldier in the snow. He hadn't seen army men coming up the mountain to rescue them. This was all a hallucination from the altitude, from exhaustion, from the cold. He would later actually come to believe that the dead man he saw in the snow was Cooper, who we now know is dead.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Yeah, it obviously doesn't sound like a good plan here sitting in my warm house. You just stumbled on what I imagine to be a horrific, you know, scene. Someone from your expedition is dead right in front of you. And he might be thinking, this is me if I try to stay with Janet. So I'm just going to go ahead. You're never supposed to do that.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And if that's what you're thinking, I can't imagine you'd ever tell anyone that, especially when we know Janet's not going to make it. But obviously people are not thinking clearly here. We see construction trucks. We see Argentine army men.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Obviously there's like probably some hallucination happening and no one is doing well, especially after having spent multiple days out in the elements camping with No camping gear. But that's another narrative that I don't think we would ever hear from him, if indeed. And it would be completely like a human nature response to seeing someone you know dead in front of you from the elements.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
In the very elements that you are just barely escaping. But whatever it is, Zeller leaves Janet behind. And he got to camp about three hours after McMillan. And so Zeller and McMillan are reunited at Camp 3.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
they both decide to get some sleep but when they woke in the morning janet was nowhere to be found which is not surprising so at this point after they've gotten warmed up gotten some sleep zeller and macmillan decide to head down the mountain without her
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Which is kind of interesting because at that point, if they woke up, I would think once you've had some rest, gotten out of the elements, you would think, whoa, she never came in. Let's go look for her. But that's not their intuition. They decide to just continue down the mountain away from dead Cooper and Janet, who continues to be out in the elements, who has blackened hands.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And one more thing to note. Remember the three to four city blocks? That's how far Cooper is away. And Cooper's dead. So clearly Cooper, having seen the tents three or four city blocks away, never made it. So Cooper had three fewer days in the elements at that point than Janet. Janet has been out in the elements a lot longer. Has already, you know, at least one day prior said she wanted to die.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And they've taken these tumbles down the mountain, which... You know, further injure you and exhaust you. It is at that point, the three or four city blocks that Cooper was dead. And to think that someone in probably worse condition than Cooper was at that point was going to make it seems unreasonable, but perhaps in their state of mind, reasonable place to be.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Well, we're not the only ones thinking this is strange because when the two men make it to the base of the mountain, they, as well as Alfonso, the guide who had gone down much earlier, never went up to the summit with them. They were held for questioning by the Argentinian police and the police were looking into the possibility of manslaughter.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
The investigation was also supported by the American embassy. Here you have a bunch of Americans and two of them are still at the top of that mountain.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
after their initial questioning the americans were released and they returned to hotel nutabara where their journey began and the u s state department also had questions for these men consul wilbur w hitchcock tried to speak with the group but he was unable to garner any useful information with the men using the effects of high altitude in the mind as an excuse for their lack of insight.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
So even though they were questioned by the police and also by the United States, there wasn't much information that they could gather from any of this. They were just like, I don't know. We've been out in the elements for so long. You know how difficult this path is. That's why only four other groups have ever made it. We failed. We thought there were bulldozers and Argentinian armies that
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
we weren't in our right mind. So we did the best we can. We almost died up there as well. That's basically where it ended up.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
It was almost like this blase, not even seeming utter devastation, right? Like I've never happened. I'm not a climber. I've never happened across dead bodies. But both of them report seeing Cooper. One of them says they hallucinated and thought it was, you know, an army man who was dead in the snow. But they've seen a dead man, someone they went up with who was alive when they went up together.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And he is now dead. And the other one who had blackened hands they had apparently tried to save. No longer there. There's not even that level of that could have been me, which is a very interesting dynamic that's happening. Nothing useful is coming out of this. Nothing like you said, the fact that the questions led to nothing.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
I understand that they may be spouting off a lot of information if they're trying to be helpful, but it ends up not being helpful because of their state of mind. That makes more sense than just not giving any useful information whatsoever. Yeah. So this all sounds very convenient because guess what? If a crime has been committed, what do you want to not happen?
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Anyone to find the bodies or maybe the axes or anything that could be pointing to you as being the crime conductor? I've lost it. I've lost the stream of consciousness. But you can see why they may not want to help if they are being questioned for a crime. And immediately, it's not like later on.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Immediately, as soon as they get to camp, that's when the questions start because they wonder if a crime has been committed. Not years down the road comparing different kind of testimonies. Immediately. And that says something here.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
I have not. I would love to.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
I may not because I can literally hear him through the two doors.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
So unpredictable. We tried to move this recording up a little bit, but apparently he was like, no.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
That was real good. Aconcagua. I was trying not to laugh so that it didn't get messed up. Aconcagua.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Carmi began to work on a plan to travel to Argentina and complete an expedition to top Aconcagua. Did I say that right?
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
It got stuck right here. Aconcagua. Okay. Aconcagua. I got it. Argentina.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Or at least we'll attempt to. It's been 50 years. We don't think that highly of ourselves right now. But we can attempt. And we're going to do it as we do all of our other cases through our trusty timeline. What's so interesting about this case is obviously it's not like these two mountaineers went up and didn't come down. They were with a group.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And still, despite being with a group, we don't know what happened. Let's see if we can figure it out together. So let's go back to June 1972. Carmi Defoe is a lawyer from Portland, Oregon, and also a member of the Mazamas Climbing Club. Carmi was planning to travel to Argentina and complete an expedition to top Aconcagua via the Polish route, the hard route, as we now know.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
Now, he assembled a group of seven American men, and they consisted of Carmi Defoe, who is 52 years old, Jim Petroski, 39 years old, who was a psychiatrist from Portland, Oregon. Bill Eubank, 45 years old. He was a physician from Kansas City, Missouri. Arnold McMillan, 46 year old dairy farmer from Otis, Oregon. Bill Zeller, a 45 year old police officer from Salem, Oregon.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
John Shelton, a 25-year-old from Brigham Young, and he was studying geology, also fluent in Spanish, which would be helpful here. And John Cooper, a 35-year-old NASA engineer from Houston, Texas. As you can tell, very accomplished group, also very varied in terms of age, location within the United States.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
And they probably all had one thing in common, which is that each of them were pretty successful in what they did. as you typically are if you're going to train and plan for a trip like this far from home, to go up the side of a famous mountain by one of its most difficult routes, where only a handful of other expeditions had successfully summited.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
carmy defoe would be the leader of this group and petrosky was the deputy leader and next in charge was eubank who served as the doctor and sheldon was the interpreter now the remainder of the group did not have defined hierarchy they were just part of the expedition So in anticipation, Defoe collected a $50 deposit from each of the men and began planning the trip.
The Prosecutors
293. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 1 of 2 -- Mountain Sound
He secured a guide who was Miguel Alfonso, who had been to the summit five times and via the Polish route once. This group would be the fifth expedition to top Aconcagua via the Polish route.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
They also see, terrifyingly, a man crouching in the corner. I don't know about you, but we're not going to have to pause the podcast now so that I can go check behind every toilet in my house.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Oh my gosh. So this man, crouching in the corner, actually doesn't put up a fight at all. He's found behind the toilet, and he comes out on his own, without argument, not forced, and he's subsequently arrested. And this wasn't a man at all. It was a 16-year-old boy named Daniel LaPlante, and he had been intermittently living in the wall of the Bowens' home for six years.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
If you've been around for the past four and a half years, you've heard this story before, so I'll make it a shortened version. You can find the episode where I tell the full story. The reason I said that this story hits way, way, way too close to home is while this all sounds like a movie script, I've lived this, and so I know it's not a movie script.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So my first year of law school, those of you who heard us cover the horrifying story of of a med student who was murdered there my first year. That same semester when everyone has curfews imposed by campus police because we can't find a murderer on the loose. And all of us are just kind of living in northeastern of the country where it's dark all the time. It's snowing all the time.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
There's a murder on the loose on campus. And My class is pretty small. There's only, you know, like a little over 100 people in my law school class. So you get to know everyone very well, especially the first semester. Everyone's hanging out at each other's homes and getting to know each other. There are five girls in my class, which is like 10% of my class.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
They're all good. They're truly, truly all good. But thank you for that little breath of fresh air before we dive into really one of the most horrific cases.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Literally, they all live together in a house in East Rock. If you know New Haven, it's like the residential part of New Haven, not apartment buildings, but old hundred year old homes. This is where I live to East Rock. And we went over there all the time for, you know, watching football or just. baking cookies, having parties with our class.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
It was a good hangout place since so many of our classmates lived there. But I knew these girls well. They were my classes. And we'd all just met each other. We'd known each other for like a month at this point. So no one knew each other very well. But some of the girls who I got to know a little bit better than the other girls in the house started
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
like gossiping a little bit about their roommates. They're like, I don't know who it is in our house, but every time I buy groceries, someone like eats all of my groceries. They eat all my cereal. They drink all my milk. They eat my cheese. Kind of annoying because we're all on, you know, student loans and groceries are kind of expensive. And I heard this from multiple of the girls.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
They're like, I don't know who keeps eating my bananas, specifically bananas. Like someone was pilfering all the bananas in that house. So one of the girls was like getting a lot of potassium. And this went on for about a month.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Like every time I went to a party at their house, someone would be talking about how annoying it was that one of the girls in the house was just not doing her share and eating everyone else's groceries and not contributing. Common roommate problem, right? Until one day we have class and everyone has different hours of class, but because it's law school, you can come home in the middle of the day.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
One of the girls comes home at like two o'clock. So after lunchtime, and yet again, she kind of sees like craziness crumbs all over the kitchen and someone's eating lunch and just like left it there, which is annoying because we have a lot of rats and vermin problem in New Haven. And she hears something in the basement, but there's no rooms in the basement. Like it's just an unfinished basement.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
When we get into this, I know I've told this story on the podcast before. You can tell it again. I will tell it again because it's so horrific and it's so on point. But this experience of mine that you will hear about from law school touches right on what we're about to talk about. I did not die in my experience, but you see how close to kind of the edge you always are.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
No one's down there. No bedrooms are down there. And she hears something and it's pretty loud. And so she kind of walks down there and she doesn't see anything because the lights don't work, of course. She comes back up, whatever. She goes to class. Another day, another roommate comes home. She hears something, too. She's like, who's down there? That's really weird.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Like, none of us hang out down there. There's nothing down there. So she walks downstairs, looks around. Nothing there either. Very, very brave, shall I say. They are not like me. Fast forward, like, another month. This is still in the first semester. They start having, like, a powwow. We need to have a house meeting.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Whoever is like just leaving the kitchen filthy and eating everyone's food, you got to stop. If we're going to live together the whole year, like let's just put it out in the open. And they all were like, wait, someone's eating your food? And all five of them realized that all of them had food that was being eaten and it was none of them. And they think they can trust each other. They don't know.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
But they started seeing like trash just littered all over their house. And it was like a man was using it. It wasn't... like a woman stuff. And so they start investigating and they finally call the police. And what would you know? Someone had been living in their basement, a squatter, a man in his 20s. We call him townies. He was not a student.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
He lived in town and he'd been living in the basement for like, years, because this house was rented out to students every year. So it turned over every single year. And there was no like continuity where you would figure out that someone was living down there. And he had been squatting for who knows how long and showered in their showers, used their bath products, ate all their food.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I mean, went through their stuff because they would talk about how their drawers, like their underwear drawers would Someone had sifted through them, which is kind of disconcerting. They just thought their roommates were looking for something. And this man just helped himself and he slept there with five other girls and none of them were murdered by the freaking grace of God.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So that happened my first semester alongside the murderer. So I'm not cool with this story.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So that's why this case really struck a chord with me because it was a little too close to home.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I will say I was kind of raised. I always felt like if someone did the chivalrous thing and asked me on a date, I would say yes to one date because they went through all the effort. Even if I wasn't going to like there was not going to be handholding or kissing, whatever. It's just like a nice thing. They did a nice thing. I will reciprocate. And then that's it.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
This makes me rethink everything about my childhood.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
very, very bad consequences because on October 9th, 1987, now that he's in Superior Court, what do we typically talk about? Bail, right? If you're going to get bail, what's it going to be set at? And if you can meet bail. And this judge decides, probably not in small part, that Daniel's relatively young at this point. He was very young when all these things happened.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And while all of the charges are very serious, nothing quote unquote terrible happened. right the kidnapping was relatively minor no one got hurt and so he decides to set bail for daniel out at ten thousand dollars now his mom gets a second mortgage on their home to cover the bail money and as a result because he's made bail daniel is released on october 9th 1987 and
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Now, when you're out on bail, it means you are out pending your next hearing. So he's expected back in court a couple months later on December 11th, 1987. I think you already know where this is going. Things are going to happen before December 11th. October 14th, 1987, just about five days after he's released on bail.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Sometime between noon and 2.15 p.m., Daniel breaks into the home of the Pindell family located at 38 Elm Street, Pepperell, Massachusetts. While in their home, he steals two Ruger .22 caliber guns and their holsters, as well as a large sum of cash. So this is getting serious. He, first of all, breaks into a home and now is stealing cash and and guns before he just had a hatchet.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Now we have a gun. Three weeks later, Daniel's stepfather locates one of the stolen guns in Daniel's laundry basket. Now, when confronted about this, Daniel claims that he'd actually gotten this gun a year prior when he came upon it. He doesn't confess that he has just stolen this gun. And his parents just, I guess, believe him. because they don't find a second gun and they kind of leave it there.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Like, if you found your child's gun in their dirty laundry basket, even if you told me you got it a year earlier, still stolen, still not your gun, still why do you have a gun, and why are you hiding it?
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
You definitely can't have a gun. Like, there's lots of red flags.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Yeah. And based on what he's stealing so far, it seems like pretty common burglary items, right? Like it seems like he's truly burglarizing these homes to steal things of value. Gun, valuable. Large sum of cash, valuable. At this point. In the 1980s, if you watch Saved by the Bell, a cordless phone is a very coveted item. Cable boxes, things that he can basically sell and make some money off of.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So he's taking things of value. This is important because we've covered other types of cases where something goes horribly wrong. And we note that, for example, the Oconee Lake murders, we note that while someone has clearly come into the home, there's nothing seemingly of value missing. And that's important because what's the purpose of them coming in?
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Was it to commit an act of violence or was it to steal? So far, what we see of him taking seems to point him in the direction of breaking in for the purposes of taking things of value so that he can, I don't know, continue to live his life of leisure without having to work.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So this brings us to late November. He's been out for almost two months at this point. Daniel asks his brother, Stephen LaPlante, and his friend, Michael Pulaski, for some bullets. Now, he claims he just wanted to make a large bullet from all these smaller bullets to sell.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
You don't usually make your own bullets and like a bigger bullet isn't more valuable than smaller bullets. You just look. He's out on bail for a pretty horrific crime of, you know, kidnapping by hatchet and continually, you know, living in someone's home. Those these sorts of things. And he's been found with a stolen gun that he claims is not, you know. illicit or whatever.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And then he asked for a bunch of bullets, but he's like, don't worry, I'm not going to do anything. I'm just going to melt them down and make one big bullet. So his friend, Michael Pulaski, gives him a number of .22 caliber bullets from a carton that he owned. I guess not asking questions about it. On December 1st, 1987... Daniel LaPlante breaks into the Gustafson home for a second time.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
This time, he doesn't just have that .22 caliber firearm that he stole previously. This time, it's loaded with the bullets that Pulaski gave him. Priscilla and her five-year-old son, William, returned home that afternoon after she picked him up from the babysitter around 1 p.m. And Daniel was already in the home. And he hears them enter the home.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And while he debates jumping out a window, he ultimately decides not to do so and instead stay in the home. So while he's in the home, you got to have a plan. If you're not going to run, what are you going to do? There's really one other thing. You're not going to wait it out because your chance to escape has passed.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So instead, Daniel confronts Priscilla and the five-year-old William while brandishing the loaded 22 firearm. He orders the two of them into the bedroom. Does this sound familiar, by the way? This is what happened to the Bowens. Where he puts William in the closet and he tied Priscilla to the bed. He would later tell police that this was all he planned to do.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
He was just going to put William in the closet, tie Priscilla to the bed, and he was going to leave. I have my serious doubts that that was all he was going to do because he could have just forced them into the bedroom, tell them to count to a thousand, and run out the door. That's not what he did. Instead, he does something utterly, utterly horrific. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Okay, so they go to trial pretty quickly. I mean, you've heard the evidence. It's pretty strong here. Daniel's trial begins in October of 1988. And at this point, he's 18 years old, and he's being tried as an adult. And frankly, his crimes are so serious that I could see a judge would say he'd be tried as an adult, even if he were 17. The prosecution laid out the evidence to the jury.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Hair, blood and saliva samples were all obtained from Daniel and Daniel was determined to be a type A secretor, which matched the evidence on the scene. Fibers from the flannel shirt that the dogs found in the woods were also found to match fibers on the shirt that Daniel was wearing on the day of the murders, as well as in various places at the scene of the murders.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
In other words, this is very, very strong evidence tying him to the murders. In fact, a strand of hair on one of Daniel's socks was shown to belong to Abigail Gustafson. Remember, unfortunately, she sounds like she fought back and he had to use blunt force. This is so sad that it clearly was a pretty violent struggle because her hand ends up on one of his socks.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Finally, the shoe print outside the home matched the shoes Daniel was wearing at the time of his arrest. Not to mention, the tracking dogs led investigators right to Daniel's doorstep. I mean, this is as strong as it gets, so some of you may be wondering, why did he go to trial? Well, Daniel's defense team implied that Daniel was insane. Remember, insanity is a defense that you have to present.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
It doesn't keep you from going to trial. But they only imply it because they don't call any witnesses of their own or present their own case. Daniel also did not testify in his own defense. So his team simply suggested in cross-examination of the prosecution's witnesses that there were other suspects, even suggesting that Daniel's brother could have done it.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Yeah, this is already starting out like a horror movie. It sounds like The Haunting. It sounds like something just horrifically wrong. And it's gotten so bad that they're even thinking about leaving. So let's walk through what exactly they were experiencing. December 8th, 1986. At 5.30 p.m., Tina and her sister Karen and their friend Kathleen and their father Frank all arrive home.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
But Daniel was the easiest to pin that crime on.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So that's what happens for LaPlante. Basically, his sentence gets a second look. And on March 23rd, 2017, Middlesex Superior Court Judge Helene Kazanjian formally resentenced LaPlante to the maximum possible punishment. three consecutive life sentences with the opportunity for parole after 45 years from the date of his conviction. So what this just means is they had to re-look at the sentence.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
It wasn't automatic, and it's still just as horrific as the day he was convicted. So he gets the same sentence, but he is able to get parole after 45 years. Now, this was partially based on a forensic psychiatrist evaluation of LaPlante, which found that he was not remorseful for his crimes. I would say not remorseful and just the horrificness of all of this.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Like there was so little regard for life that he would have, I think, kept on killing if given the opportunity. And the only reason he hasn't killed again is that the manhunt ensued immediately after and he was basically apprehended just days after the murders happened.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
In March of 2019, LaPlante's attorneys first appealed Daniel's case for early parole eligibility in March, citing previous court rulings that say juveniles convicted of murder should be given a meaningful opportunity to reengage with society. In this case, I think Daniel's reengagement with society would probably be in the form of committing more murders.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
But his attorneys cited the change in state law that allows juveniles convicted of murder with extreme cruelty and atrocity to ask for parole after they've been behind bars for a minimum of 30 years. Again, the whole not remorseful thing. We're not talking about someone who's like 12. He was really on the cusp of 18. He was already out on bond at the time. He's stealing guns.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
His crime is truly not one that really draws on the sympathy strings of someone's heart.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
But when they pull up, they immediately notice that the things in their house are not as they left it. The lights were all turned on. And strangely enough, as if out of a horror movie, all the radios and TVs were turned on in the home. So there was sound blaring. This was crazy. Not something they had done. Frank Bowen was immediately suspicious. Good man. Finally. Finally, Dan.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So there's really no mystery about this case. It was, I think, open and shut from the beginning, but I think it is a fascinating view into a very short amount of time in which the crimes escalated so quickly. And you can clearly see where Daniel's trajectory was going. It was only going to become more and more violent and more and more horrific and The justice system works swiftly in this case.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And I think by doing so, both the police finding him quickly and then him being convicted and the judges who were asked to revisit his sentences and his petitions for parole did the right things, which is to look at the specific case and not just treat him as a quote unquote juvenile. Like, you know, juvenile is just thrown around as if that absolves all sins.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
There are some who truly have committed such atrocities that they need to be removed from society so as to prevent additional murders. I think each of these people, each of these judges, prosecutors who touched this case knew what they had on their hands. And they knew if they were the one to let Daniel out, like that first judge was who let him out on $10,000 bail.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
blood would be on their hands because he had proven he would do that. I don't think everyone is beyond rehabilitation, but I think in this case, you have to look at the individual and this individual truly had a deep disregard for life and the ability to execute swiftly with absolutely no hesitation and would do so again had he not been stopped.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So I will say the one good thing out of this is more people did not die because of the judicial system working the way it should.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
You had to have all the things turned on. And so he starts looking cautiously inside each room. I just have to say, if I roll up to my house and the lights were previously off and now they're on and it used to be silent and now things are blaring, I'm not going to go check what's happening. I don't want to find a ghost. I don't want to find a zombie. I don't want to find a serial killer.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And this is hard. We don't know a lot about his family, but the person or the people who could have noticed this deviant behavior other than the Bowens, who he was found living in their home, would be his family. He's 16 years old. He's a juvenile. Where's your kid for six months that you don't notice he's not living? with you or not where he's supposed to be.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I think obviously this is indicative of the kind of home he was living in. But we talk about all the time, how do you turn crime around? How do you make a meaningful difference on recidivism rates? How do you meaningfully stop these horrific crimes? How do you weed out or stop the breeding of monsters in our society? Ultimately, I think there are going to be people who We don't understand.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
They may have the perfect family and they turn out just fine. But I think, sorry guys, if you came here for parenting advice, you're not going to like it. Gentle parenting ain't going to do it. Like, especially kids like Daniel who showed deviant behavior pretty early on, you needed some structure.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Maybe some of that structure could have come in the form of knowing where your son lived for six months or something like that, or knowing that it was beyond your control. But my first thought is, man, if the police came looking for my child, I understand their rights as a lawyer. I understand that you're supposed to speak with a lawyer.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
But if I knew I had like a killer on my hands and I could prevent more lives from being lost, I'd be like, take him, talk to him now. Like, let's just stop the horror. But a lot of sadness here for all the people affected. For, oh my goodness, a family who was literally annihilated for no reason. We don't really know the reason. It wasn't random. He broke in there twice.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
He lived half a mile from them. You know, your imagination can run wild why he targeted that specific family. May have been because they were... happy family. I think this is a very, very helpful view into the minds of certain criminals and why these long sentences sometimes just have to exist.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So just so you know, if that's the way you plan on killing me, bad choice because I'm just going to run away. That's not Frank, though. Frank is there with three young girls that he's in charge of. And he begins doing what we see in a lot of movies. He walks around slowly and he opens door after door. You do that because you expect to find something, right?
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Yeah, sure. Let's answer our question.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Yeah, thank you to that person for writing and so many of you for writing your stories and also those of you who work in the field of child exploitation for giving us your perspective from where you work. Those of you, I know a lot of people probably skipped the William Ayliss episode because they didn't want to hear such a horrific story. I will say for what a horrific subject.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
It is an incredibly bright light because you are hearing really the story from the perspective of a former victim turned someone who got justice decades later. And you can hear more about this story also on Jason Blair's podcast. He just had an episode come out about the A-list case as well with an interview. I think you'd really enjoy it again.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Very dark subject, but I think these are important stories to tell because true crime isn't just for, you know, entertainment consumption. It is also to give voice to victims and many people, sometimes they just need to hear that it's been done before and that it's possible. And I think that's what the A-list case can really offer you people here.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Well, while he's doing this, he noticed that more things in the house are out of place. He notices, for example, that the basement toilet had been used. Okay, so maybe we're stepping outside the realm of not ghosts because ghosts, as I understand it, don't need to use the restroom.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I thought that was like the dialect that Bostonians do and you were like trying to be all Bostonian.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So Frank continues scanning the house and he opens a closet towards the front of the house and staring right back at him, this man was wearing a furry coat with his face painted and his hair sticking straight up. I guess this is exactly what you expect to see if you are cautiously going through your home where it's clear that someone has been through it.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I'm the pun-erific one. My words are actually about you.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And one of the most horrifying things is facing him. Because not only is it a seemingly crazy person, it's a crazy person who's armed with a hatchet and a wrench that can do some serious harm.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
No, no, I really I really actually can't imagine. You know, we've talked about the murder committed by the clown who rings the doorbell. And I told you that if a clown rang my doorbell, I would run probably because of that story. But also here, this is horrifying on so many levels because this is clearly not just a home intrusion.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Turning the lights on, turning the radios on, being there long enough to have to use the bathroom. This means someone's been there for a while and they're lying in wait, basically expecting, if not leaving a Hansel and Gretel-like trail of breadcrumbs to be found. And that's exactly what happens. He's found and he's not done yet.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Could I also point out one other thing? Let's say he didn't find anything. Let's say he opened every single door and it's he finds nothing.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Come in. Let's do our sleepover after all. Like, no, I'm not going to stay. We checked all the closets. Not the attic, but, you know, the closets are good. Okay, well, the horror doesn't end there because it's not like he finds the intruder and the intruder just like walks himself out and say, yeah, sorry, turned all the lights on. Your electric bill is going to be real high.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
No, the intruder calmly instructed Frank and the girls to go to the bedroom. And at this point, Frank does some quick thinking. He doesn't do what the intruder said. In fact, he slams the door and he wedges it shut behind him. Good thinking. Locking the intruder on the other side. So while he does this, that's about as far as his plan went.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Because as soon as he locks him in, he's like, well, now I have an intruder. who has a hatchet, so, you know, hatchet versus door, hatchet will eventually win. He has to come up with a plan. And while he's trying to come up with a plan, Tina Bowen panics and does what I was going to do. She jumps out the window and she runs as fast as she can to the neighbor's house to report what's going on.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Thank goodness, by the way, Tina, way to go, Tina, because otherwise help wasn't going to be on the way.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Also, this is an every man for himself situation. If a man with a hatchet's in my closet, I would say all four of you scatter.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Two days pass, and on December 10th, Frank Bowen calls the Pepperell Police Department again. This time when the police arrive, Frank tells them that when he got home to grab some of their family belongings because they had, remember, left the house and were staying away, I would stay away probably forever. I'd be like, I cede this house to you, painted man. But they are smartly not staying there.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
So he comes home to pick up some things, and he sees the intruder from two days prior in the window. Now... He's inside the house. This time, Frank doesn't go in by himself. He calls the police. The police come inside and they are met with a horrifying sight. The police sees a knife stabbed into the wall of the house and a message was written on the furniture in shaving cream.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Okay, I love it. That was like, you guys know of my love of gummy gummies.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
And it said, I am in your room. Literally the stuff of nightmares. Right. Another message was written on the wall in the kitchen and it said, I'll be back with a photo of the Bowen daughters with a knife stabbed through it. And as if this is not horrifying enough, there are two glasses of champagne on the counter poured, but neither was drank. And a BB gun was found in the basement.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I just... Doesn't this sound like a script? Like we're reading a script of a movie.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
candies so i'm like because i'm a child apparently you're supposed to lose that taste for like gummy candies as you get more refined and older and you like you know rich tastes like chocolate which i also love but one of my favorite gummies are peach rings so i figured you were gonna talk about peach thank you thank you i love gummies as well i'm a fan just of gummy bears just the look they're all good gummy bears
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Is it for the girls? Is it for him when he kills each girl? Like, what is this? What's the symbolism?
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Yeah, absolutely. And also note that this is two days later. So is this intruder just hanging out indefinitely until they come back to see these messages? Did he do these messages right after they had left the house on the 8th? Or did he just come back two days later and he happened? The fact that he's seen in the window, I don't think it was that much of a coincidence.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
I think what it shows is the intruder's been there the whole time. Right. Because for it to be a coincidence that he sees him when he just happens to drop by, he doesn't know when Frank's going to drop by to get his belongings. They've been gone for two days. So the fact that he even catches a sight of him, this intruder in the window, tells me that he's been just hanging around at their house.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
Like at this point, I seed house to you, painted man. That's it. I'm not I'm never coming back. But even more strangely. Despite a clear intrusion, not only did Frank see someone through the window, there's knives stabbed through pictures of the Bowen girls. There's messages written in the house. The police can't find a sign of an intruder.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
This really puzzled investigators because all the doors were locked and there were no footprints in the snow leading away from the house to the house. Anything like that. But the officers weren't giving up, which I'm glad because this is clearly a soon to be crime scene. It's definitely a crime scene because there's an intruder. And they searched the home again.
The Prosecutors
292. Daniel LaPlante -- Somebody's Watching Me
This time they noticed that the toilet in the basement, remember that toilet that had been used two days prior when Frank came home? They noticed that there's a false wall behind it built to hide the plumbing, but it also left a small triangular shaped space. The officers looked into that space and they found a pile of dirty clothes, but that's not all.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And you guys, even if you think you've heard something before, Jason is able to bring out things you never thought about. Just check out these recent episodes. He had an interview with Kimberly Loring, the sister of a 20-year-old missing Montana woman, Ashley Loring Heavenredder, and about her search for her sister, finding faith in God and forgiving those who harmed Ashley.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
You'll have to check out this incredible interview he had about journalists in Minnesota and Iowa who are still advocating for and searching for Jodi Husen Truitt, a broadcast journalist who disappeared in 1995. And then there's this interview with a friend of a domestic violence victim who was murdered in 2023 in Minnesota.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
about what friends can do to be non-judgmental and supportive of those who are facing interpersonal abuse. You guys have got to check out this incredible podcast, Silver Linings Handbook. You can get it wherever you listen to podcasts. Homes.com knows when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or condo. It's about the home.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And what makes a home is more than just the house or property. It's the location and neighborhood. If you have kids, it's also schools, nearby parks, and transportation options. That's why Homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in-depth information they need to find the right home.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So a few things to note just before we really dive into the nitty gritty. She dies in 1974. She left Bill in 1972. So she starts a whole new life and basically rises to the top of this whistleblowing phenomenon that's happening within two years. I mean, call her Spitfire, right? So when you move that fast...
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And I'm sure Kerr-McGee and the safety violations didn't just start when she arrived on the plant. Likely had been going on for some time as these things happen and probably a lot of people knew about them. But until she kind of arrived on the scene, not much was being done about it. So a couple things stick out to me. She's a woman in a male-dominated field.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So she sticks out just by virtue of who she is. Even if she were a wallflower, she would stick out because of being a woman. Second, she rises to the top of being a whistleblower really fast. And she gets a lot of... Clout being on the bargaining committee, being with these other two union committee members, being ready to testify at committees in D.C.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
and gathering information to go talk to the New York Times. These are all big, moving things, and they're happening fast. And whether people are ready for her to move that fast or not is something that I'm seeing swirling around. So kind of a rocket shot to the top, which she's always done because she's bright.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Well, thank you. You know what? It's like Alex Mack. That was one of the best shows of the 90s. Was that the 90s? Something like that. That was the 90s. Didn't she touch some nuclear material and then she could turn into water? Never watched it.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Being different than the typical person who works in this field, also standing out, is to me already putting a massive target on her back.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Oh, well, I guess.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
That was the whole thing. She could turn into water and then go under the doors. That's how she could get places where she was radioactive, could go under the doors. Fantastic.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
You know, it was very smart because then you're invisible. But like you could see it as the Nickelodeon watcher. But the reason we're talking is smart. Isn't it smart? So like technically she's invisible, but she's water. So we see it. But, you know, if you're next to her, you don't see it because that's how TV works. True suspension of reality.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
But, Brett, I'm so proud of you for being punnerific because it's not about me. It is about the radioactive Yeti. Not about the radioactive Yeti, in fact. But we do have a radioactive case today. And, okay, I know you probably did way better in science than I did. I was not great at science. But radioactivity and nuclear weapons, all of these things, all I can think of is I'm scared.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So fast forward just two years after she joins the plant, Karen and her fellow committee members met with the Oil, Chemical and Atomic Worker Union's leaders in Washington, D.C. in September of 1974. Now, the group presented charges to the AEC, the Atomic Energy Commission, of over 40 health and safety violations by Kerr-McGee.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So the AEC listened to their claims, but they require that the committee members provide documentations of the alleged charges, because how do they know that there's any teeth to these allegations? These are serious allegations, but they could just be disgruntled workers. In fact, they had just had a strike that failed. So how do they not know that this may just be them trying to make trouble?
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So they say, OK, well, we need evidence and documentation of what you are alleging here. So Karen Silkwood is put in charge of collecting this documentation. This is a big deal. Again, she's in charge of basically proving the case that there is a case to be made at all.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And over the next two months, in addition to doing her job, Karen would work to compile this information, both in notebooks and on tapes. And she was working on all of this nonstop until her untimely death in November. Karen Silkwood, as well as OCAW officials, discussed handing over the evidence collected to the New York Times to expose Kerr-McGee.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So I just envision her quite literally having these notebooks of information, right? This is not the time of like computers. She's not stealing files. She's documenting things and her observations, that is the evidence. But what do you do with that? Now, as she's collecting this information that could potentially tank or get Kermagee into a lot of trouble.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
They decide to turn, who do you turn over to? Plutonium police? That doesn't exist. But what you do have potentially in your power is the public and public outcry, hence going to the New York Times.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And when you put true crime in there, talk about mystery of mysteries.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So he or she is collecting the evidence. And in October, 1974, so a month into collecting this evidence, Karen called a friend, another Kerr-McGee employee, James Knoll, and told him that 40 pounds of plutonium had gone missing from the plant. 40 pounds is a lot. Her job has been making pellets.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
small little pellets right that fit into your hand 40 pounds this would have been enough to make a nuclear weapon obviously this goes beyond just worker safety this goes into national security because whoever has access to that whether it's an individual or a sovereignty would be able to have a device that could threaten nuclear war
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And it's not clear how Karen knew this or why she hadn't reported it to any officials, because obviously this would be incredibly dangerous and criminal. It's also unclear if there was any truth to this statement. On December 30th, after her death, someone called in Tacoma radio in Oklahoma City during an open forum.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And the person said that she worked at Kermagee and had reason to believe that 60 pounds of plutonium was missing from the facility and had been sold to Russia. She went on to say that Karen Silkwood's knowledge of this fact led to her death.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So while we don't know if what she reported to James Knoll was true, at least someone unidentified reported after her death that Karen knew this, that there was indeed pounds and pounds of plutonium missing. enough to make a nuclear weapon. And because Karen knew this information, that is why she died.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Absolutely. This is going to blow your mind, guys. And talk about a timeline really mattering here. And if you are a scientist and you understand how these things we're going to start talking about, obviously a lot of science things. If you have an expertise in it, I'd actually love to hear how this works, how people actually study these things without dying.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
I mean, I know a lot of the scientists before we understood how to not be contaminated by these radioactive materials. But what did they do? They just died. That's pretty much. I would say that's scary.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So guys, when we got started making this podcast and spending time researching these cases, I didn't think it would have any effect on my sleep, but you guys know how I am scared of everything. And well, I realized these cases were keeping me up at night and they can be downright scary. So I knew I had to figure out a routine to wind down after researching, after recording and get myself to sleep.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
With a family of six, we go through so much water, but now all I do... For my cooking, for my coffee, for my tea, for my regular drinking water is AquaTrue. And I'm so glad they make it so easy. And it looks so sleek on my countertop as well. AquaTrue comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee and even makes a great gift. Today, our listeners receive 20% off any AquaTrue purifier.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Just go to AquaTrue.com. That's A-Q-U-A-T-R-U.com. and enter PROSECUTORS at checkout. That's 20% off any AquaTrue water purifier when you go to AquaTrue.com and use code P-R-O-S-E-C-U-T-O-R-S. And no, when she gets the second contamination, she hasn't been back to that glove box where they had found contamination on the glove.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And if there's a hole in the glove working with the glove box, that might make sense. But she's doing paperwork at her desk essentially, but is contaminated.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And this one is particularly interesting because the first two times she's found contaminated, she's in the lab, then tests and gets the positive response for contamination. This time it's when she's entering into the lab, right? It would make sense if there was going to be contamination, it would be inside the plutonium lab.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
But when you're coming from outside, inside, and you were previously decontaminated, that's confusing because any plutonium should be inside the lab.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So this is really interesting to me because remember, she left to go to a union meeting, which presumably she drove to the meeting. I don't have any indication she didn't. Maybe she walked.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
But my thought is she's asking for her car because that was one of the places she was from the time of leaving the plant when she was decontaminated and coming back and getting the positive contamination notification. And so the fact that there's no contamination in the car is really interesting.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So presumably that contamination would have happened somewhere from the time she parked the car and walked into the lab, which is not a very far distance.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And this is, of course, important because, as we said before, it's very easy to pass contamination. So that's why, presumably, we're seeing it on her hand and then all over her face because we naturally touch our face, you know, I think dozens of times each, you know, few minutes.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And so it's relevant that there are other people that she's staying with as she's going through kind of this whole saga. It's really only been about 24 hours since we had the first contamination, by the way. So at 7 a.m. on November 7th, Karen's boyfriend leaves her apartment after staying there that night.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And later testing would show that neither him nor his car nor his home were contaminated with plutonium. And this would matter because if Karen had contamination and had gone home and
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
and she was around her boyfriend sleeping next to him you would think that he would also show signs of contamination and then if he was contaminated getting into his car car would also show contamination but there's none of that from 7 to 7 50 a.m sometime between that time period karen claims that she spilled the urine sample she had taken in the apartment bathroom
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Remember, she had to take home fecal and urine samples to test herself for five days to ensure that in addition to the decontamination process, everything that she was voiding had to be tested for contamination. So she's doing one of these urine tests. And at home, she claims that she spills this urine sample on the bathroom floor.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
at 7 50 a.m karen arrives at the plant for work yet again another early morning and at the time she arrives she immediately goes to the health office with her kit containing the four urine samples and one fecal sample because they have to ship it off for testing so she's doing all the things she's supposed to do at home and the very first thing she does when she gets to work she doesn't you know sit down and do paperwork or go work in the glove box she gets in work delivers the samples and
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And when she delivers the sample, she also has her nose swabbed. And when they do that, it showed that she has significant plutonium levels in both nostrils and around her nose. And they also find that plutonium is present in other areas of her body, namely her hands.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
arms, chest, back, neck, and right ear, basically all over her in such a way that if she were say hugging her boyfriend goodbye that morning, really just an hour earlier or sleeping next to him or sharing the same apartment as her roommate, you would think that with that much plutonium on all surfaces of her body, it would have contaminated other people or other surfaces as well.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And by the way, earlier, we just have Karen's version of it, but if Karen did spill a urine sample, and let's say that the urine sample is what had the plutonium, if you've ever done a urine sample or you know how much you pee, it's not insignificant, but it's not like a massive bucket where you could just be like spraying it all over the apartment for purposes of- Speak for yourself, Alice. Okay.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Okay. Okay. We're getting way too personal over here. But you would imagine, imagine a spilling, right? Even if it's the entire jar of the urine sample on the floor, you would probably wipe it up. Because you can see urine and urine is not something you usually leave on the floor. You're probably not patting it all over the bologna and the cheese and the rest of the apartment.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
I note that because we do have one indication of why maybe there's plutonium contamination in, say, the bathroom. But all these other areas, including in the refrigerator or food that's kept in a refrigerator, as well as the rest of the apartment, is much more puzzling.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
It is, it's such an interesting, it's like following footprints, but we're following contamination and trying to figure out what's happening. And there are all these like crumbs of clues. Obviously, Karen is no longer here. She is going to end up dying quite soon. And whatever answers there may be, it seems like this timeline is all we have.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And it's like sparse crumbs trying to lead us to the truth. But it is a difficult path to follow.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
I'll do one quick question. I think someone's getting a little antsy, but let's do a question.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
country, I got, I got an official United States and they're all United States passports, but like a government, whatever passport to go to Canada because the witness was there refused to like travel the five miles into the United States for the deposition.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And we're about to go, which was really cool because there's actually so many protocols to have to go do as an official act of the United States to go take someone's deposition in another country. And we're about to go. I was really excited about the whole thing, except maybe not because horrible things happen. That would have been bad. And the whole deposition had to be called off.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So I did not, but I got the official passport and everything to do it, which is kind of cool because it's a different color and everything. You can't like even use your usual one. You just leave it at home.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Yeah, let's count you even touching it. Maybe not if you can see it, but if you touch it in any way, even if it's an airport. I have counted this at one time because I would love to go to all 50. What's your number? I don't know. I have to think about my number.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Wow. I can't come up with the number, but I think I'm just below 40. I would love to go to all 50.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And those are all like big states that you couldn't just like knock out two in one, really.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
So I did a lot of cases out in that area of the country. We didn't have like regions or anything, but I just had a lot of cases in that area. And that's the only, so I only saw like the insides of courtrooms and, you know, like La Quinta Inns. That was it. But they were gorgeous from what I could see.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
That, that works.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Look, I think there are so many beautiful places even just within the United States. And I've told you this before. Part of the reason I wanted a minivan is eventually as our kids get older, let's go to all the national parks. We're going to road trip there. Let's road trip to Washington.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
No, there's still a lot of the timeline left, guys. So come back next time and let's try to make sense of this 50 year old mystery.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
I spent all morning at an ortho urgent care oh yeah that sounds not for me for a child okay I'm ready this is a crazy case this is a crazy case trying to rush it is a crazy case we're not rushed now that you helped me move up 30 minutes now we're like good we can go at our own pace our normal leisurely pace I think this is going to be two episodes Yeah. There's a lot to digest there.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
podcast truth and justice no i think it's i think it's actually um our our best our best advertiser what's her name um rob robbia robbia yeah oh yeah we should send her a thank you note did you did you sign the card yet
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
It kind of doesn't, but it kind of does, too. It depends on the state. Basically, you just have to get all your friends to say you were married. You have to get at least one friend who's like, what? They weren't actually married?
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And I'm Alice.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Yeah, that must be, she's really lived a lifetime by the time she's 24. She has, you know, this common law marriage, has three young children, a tumultuous relationship that she ends up leaving. And in leaving him, of course, leaves her children, which I think for any parent would be difficult. Doesn't matter if you're the mother or father.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
But that same month, Karen moved to Oklahoma, Oklahoma City to pursue a job at Kerr-McGee's nuclear plant where she would work to make plutonium fuel rods for nuclear reactors. So she is still gifted in science. And now after leaving this marriage, leaving her children as well, she steps back into this field.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And Karen is really excited about this opportunity because she is eager to pursue a career in science. This is what she wants. was doing when she met Bill, it got derailed for a few years. But now that she was free of that tumultuous relationship, she could step right back to where she was. But it quickly became apparent to Karen that things at this nuclear plant were far from her expectations.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
Shortly after starting, Karen joined the Oil, Chemical and Atomic Workers Union and participated in a nine week strike. she became a member of the union's bargaining committee and began to monitor the plant's health and safety practices which she found lacking she began to see evidence of spills falsification of records inadequate training health regulation violations and even
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
very disturbingly some missing amounts of plutonium which is a highly radioactive material and these were just some of the problems that she identified starting out this whole monitoring process as you can tell the charon that we kind of just met this tenacious young woman in an age when women were not in the sciences. She continues to be tenacious. She gets involved right away.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
She doesn't just join the union. She becomes one of the leaders within the union, the bargaining committee. She is wanting to make sure that things are right where she is working. And so by being on this monitoring committee, she begins to see that there are a lot of problems at this plant that she's working at.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
And this is not just your typical like, oh, there wasn't a cleanup on aisle five at the grocery store. Someone might slip. These are really serious problems because these types of violations can really lead to devastation at a nuclear plant. This is not just looking for problems for the sake of looking for problems.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
These lackadaisical safety practices at the plant were enough to convince Karen and two other union members that they needed to do something about it. They were going to testify in front of the Atomic Energy Commission, the AEC, in Washington, D.C. And they were going to expose basically all of these bad practices at their employer, Kerr-McGee. Karen was not just going to stop there.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
She wasn't just going to blow the whistle. She wanted to expose Kerr-McGee publicly for the danger they imposed on their employees. So she made a plan to take matters into her own hands and go to the New York Times. She wanted this to not just go into the black box of some committee who would write down notes and that was the end of that.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
She wanted to actually make a difference because this is where she went to work every day. This is where her friends went to work. And like I mentioned before, these safety violations could truly lead to devastation. So on the evening of November 13, 1974, Karen was headed to meet with a New York Times reporter when she got into a fatal car crash.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
But how exactly that accident occurred and who was responsible are still widely disputed today.
The Prosecutors
295. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 1 of 2 -- Radioactive
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The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
But they probably do things like this to help each other out with the law, not uncommonly. And so it's just another thing that you would do for a friend or a brother in your gang. And not knowing that you're essentially now the target of a murder investigation. So let's talk about Pablo's testimony then. Because Pablo testified in this case, and we've talked about, you can always assert the fifth.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
You don't have to testify on your own behalf. And there's a jury instruction that says, if the defendant doesn't testify, you can't hold it against them. There are lots of strategic reasons for the defense not to put up their client on the stand. For one, they may not be likable to the jury, right?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I don't know how those letters make those sounds. I think everyone just wants... I bet you all these people have pools going like, what does a Russian accent sound like with a Southern accent?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Especially if you have someone who's not someone who sings in the church choir or is a sweet old grandma. If you have someone who may have cheated on their girlfriend or may hang out at the perfect rack, may have things that are just not very likable to a jury, that could be bad. You open them up to cross-examination, those sorts of things. But Pablo does choose to testify in this case.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And you might wonder why, as there hasn't been any evidence that his testimony would need to rebut. In fact, it's pretty thin what the prosecution has in placing him even at the shooting. And here's the thing. Pablo never intended to testify. So what happened? Pablo had a number of witnesses who were going to testify on his behalf, and they were all present the final day of the state's case.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
At some point, Pablo's attorney, Mr. McLean, told them that they could all go home. But then the state finished their case more quickly than they expected. And McLean explained to the judge what happened, that he'd sent everyone home so as not to waste their time. And he asked for a recess. But we have talked about this before. You can't always time a trial.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And the judge wants expediency in their trials. And the judge did in this case what happens in... literally every trial that Brett and I have tried together. The judge said, call your next witness. It's your turn. That's it. This happens. This is why there's so much waiting around if you're a witness in a trial, because you don't know when this will happen.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So he's like, look, I sent everyone home. I didn't know the state was going to finish as quickly as they did. And we just have a recess until tomorrow. And you have to ask for a recess because otherwise the trial continues. You don't take breaks in trials. And the judge basically blinks and says, no, call your next witness.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And if you don't call another witness, then you are forced to rest the case. And so the only person there, because all the witnesses were sent home, was his client, Pablo. And so with no prep or expectation he would need to testify, McLean called Pablo to the stand.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
This is like worst case scenario, but the other scenario would be that they would be forced to rest their case, closing arguments, submit to the jury. And now if we look back and just read a cold transcript of Pablo's testimony, The testimony actually went fine. It doesn't seem like the prosecution landed many blows.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
But of course, we know that a cold transcript doesn't tell the whole story and the jury isn't reading a cold transcript. They're seeing a live Pablo on the stand, seeing every twitch of the eye, every nervous jitter, and the way he responds to cross-examination to direct testimony. And it is very different to hear that testimony in person than reading that transcript.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And we've talked about this exact procedural situation many a times and to see it really play out. I mean, this judge is not unreasonable in that we have faced this with every single judge we've appeared before as well. And it's just part of, it was a tactical error, a real tactical error here.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Was it Murdoch? It was either Murdoch. Maybe it was Karen Reed. It was one. I can't remember. We talked about it. It was Karen Reed because it was like really confusing questions.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
It was one of those. Maybe it was Richard Allen.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Because it was questions like, what's your favorite color? Like it was so, it was a filibuster, right? We called it a filibuster testimony.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
This is Brady material, correct.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I hope so as well. Thank you, Alison, for filling in for me while I was out with my baby. And it was a great episode. I don't know. I might be replaced soon.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So the defense submits additional affidavits on post-conviction appeals to tell their side of the story. And this is some really interesting stuff. So affidavits are obviously sworn testimonies, but in writing. And they do have a different role, though.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Well, I am glad to be back and especially glad to be talking about a case that truly I don't find it that confusing, but I know that there are a lot of people at play in the Pablo Velez case. Most who have nothing to do with Pablo, which is I think why it's so confusing. And I'm glad to talk about it with you.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
You can understand why someone testifies at trial and then they submit an affidavit later on that may change their trial testimony, how problematic that can be, because what could have made them change it? Well, here we have Claudia, who was obviously at, she's the one who identified. Pablo in the lineup.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Remember, she's the one who followed the gold Cadillac, you know, remembered the license plate number, wrote it down in her Bible, that whole thing. Now, in her affidavit, Claudia explained that during Jason Woolley's trial, she had testified. And a man was sitting behind Jason taking notes.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Now, Claudia immediately recognized that that man was the blue-shirted shooter, the one that she had originally identified as Pablo. And she assumed it was the same man she'd picked out in the photo lineup. But when she shows up at Pablo's trial and sees Pablo Velez for the first time, she's immediately sure that's not the same guy.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
She finds the ADA on the case, Eileen Bogar, and tells her Pablo is not the guy. That is not the blue shirted shooter. That is not the person I meant to pick out in the photo lineup. And she tells her, and this is where it's disturbing in her affidavit.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
She says that the district attorney tells her it's too late to change her story and that she should just answer the questions with whatever she told the police originally. And may not be a surprise to you guys at this point, the man taking notes during Jason's trial, Richard Shorty Cisneros. By the way, that's not true. No.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
You're allowed to change your testimony anytime, especially if you think it's not the truth. So I don't know if the district attorney really said that. And if Claudia really as forcefully told her, I got it wrong. People tend to be more black and white in their affidavits. I don't know the actual conversation. So before we like pile on the ADA.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
It's possible the conversation happened where it was a little bit less black and white as this. You can imagine something like, I don't know, I'm getting real nervous. How do I know this is the right guy? I don't know. I don't even know what's up anymore. I don't know that I want to testify. I don't know if it's him anymore.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And then you can imagine the ADA being like, everyone gets nerves when they get on the stand. So remember what you told the police. You were sure of it. We went through it many times. You didn't misremember anything, right? You don't have to be worried. These people are not judging you. It's not about you. You can imagine that conversation. That's in the best light possible.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
But if it happens, as Claudia says, you can imagine that's very bad. Because if she says, this is not the truth. I now realize the error I made. I am sure that's not the same person. And an attorney is telling her, Doesn't matter. Don't change your testimony. That obviously would be problematic. You can always change your testimony, especially when you're under oath.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I think it gives it even more credence that she recognizes the man sitting behind Jason Woolley taking notes when she doesn't know who Cisneros is. So it's not like she's playing a game and trying to pin this on someone. She independently recognizes someone. As opposed to just saying, oh, Pablo doesn't look like the person I remember.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
She can say that confidently because she has identified the actual person who she did see. So I think those two independent factors really support this type of recantation where it's not just a willy-nilly recantation because you are strong-armed by an attorney to submit a helpful affidavit.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And Jason Woolley himself submits an affidavit. In his affidavit, he said that there were three shooters, two of whom were in the gold Cadillac. Jason refused to identify the two men in the Cadillac as he feared for his safety, something that we've heard of more than once in this case.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And he would say that he knew, quote, without a doubt that Pablo wasn't one of them and had, quote, absolutely no involvement in the shootings. He said, Pablo doesn't deserve to be locked up. This is pretty big. Again, we know this is gang related. And so he's not willing to go so far as to name who the shooters are, but he's saying Pablo had nothing to do with it. Don't lock him up.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Don't lock up this innocent man.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
No, you are right. You are absolutely right. It was a little bit shocking to see how thin the case was against him, especially when you saw Claudia's... I don't even want to call it recantation because I think she was consistent from the beginning when she identified, quote unquote, him in the photo lineup.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I think it was never a strong case, but you have these characters who are afraid to say things because this is not the only act of violence among these gangs. This will not be the last one. There's going to be a lot more. There's a lot of... Witness tampering outside of all of this. And when you have an easy person to pin it on, well, Pablo's name is on the gold catalog. Let's run with it.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
You don't even have to do that much witness tampering as a gang member to keep people quiet, right? The police naturally followed the lead. I agree that they should have investigated Pablo. He should have been suspect really number one to look into because of his name on the car that was seen, you know, speeding away from the shooting.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
But if they did any sort of digging, they should not have stuck there. We always say leads are just that until proven not a viable lead in your case. No, I don't have any doubt that he's innocent. And it's a real travesty that we don't spend all our resources on these types of cases instead of the Adnan Syed case. That's the part that I think is horrible.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Even us, you know, we did three episodes on this. How many did we do on Adnan? Not because we liked Adnan, but because we had to refute all of the noise that was said out there about him. This is pretty cut and dry. And here's the thing. This isn't just based on feeling. This is based on the court record. This is based on affidavits. This is based on the briefings.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Obviously, we weren't at the trials at the time, but read the transcripts. It's all there for you. And I think you would be hard pressed to find any more. If you think we're leaving out some sort of key piece of evidence that pins this directly on Pablo, I think we laid it out very clearly for you what the evidence is against him.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
It's not nothing, but it falls apart pretty quickly upon any sort of digging. So if you think differently, I'd love to hear from it because this is exactly the type of conversation we'd like to have about it. And I think that's productive conversation. But those three?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
No, other than please listen to these three episodes. It's not that confusing. I think we laid it out at the very end. Like the bottom line, y'all, if you want to skip the first two episodes and just jump to the end, it's a thin case. Read it for yourself. You can do it very quickly. And then if you're affiliated with Innocence Project type kinds of representation, take this one up.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
drop Scottie P Scott Peterson doesn't need you I'm sorry that guy is guilty pick up this one you can do a lot of good here
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
All of them, except for like two.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
They didn't call us crazy when we started the prosecutors.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And then, you know, substacks and writing op-eds. I think the proper question was, well, if the prosecutors, I think our spouses were like, good job, good job. Glad you have some hobbies. And they're so cute, so cute. Glad this takes an hour a week when it turned into a full-time job. That's when they started calling us crazy. Without quitting our real full-time job.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
At least two full-time jobs.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
No, truthfully, our biggest supporters are obviously...
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
our spouses who are heavily involved in all of this but they take none of the glory they're like always giving us ideas they weigh in all the time they're texting us in real time telling us where we mess up when we record which we greatly appreciate so just know this is like an all family affair for both of us but you're just we're just the voices you hear
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
we're so excited because we seem less crazy when we travel around with our four kids if you at least have three yeah we just took our two skiing and i'm not sure how we're gonna do three but we'll make i don't know how you took them skiing i'm really really impressed like just the gear alone i don't know how you did it we had so many bags so i bet
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Because, you know, it takes that long to corral toddlers who are like, oh, squirrel, squirrel.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Oh, my gosh. Can I go Odyssey shopping with you? It would be my greatest honor.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I'm texting her right now.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I'm going to text her right now because I told you how I almost got a second. I didn't almost. I asked to get a second one. And that's where Mr. Alice drew the line. It's like one Odyssey is enough. We're not getting two.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I have a Odyssey and a Highlander. You have the Grand Highlander.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Okay, that's great. Why are Toyota and Honda not sponsoring us?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
You know, Toyota, that one time- Well, I did send something to Mrs. Brett, and she laughed, but I don't know if this is true, so if I'm spreading disinformation, I'm sorry. But apparently, if you buy a Volvo, they give you the option to pick it up from, where are they based? Germany?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Sweden. She told me that. She's like, we can go to Sweden and pick it up. It's the same price, so you get to- Go on their dime. I'm probably just one person. For three days, test drive the car, and then they'll ship it to your country for you. So you get a free trip to Sweden. Again, I saw this on social media, so I might. There's like a 30% truth to it probably.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
But I did send that to Mrs. Brett because I know she was potentially looking at a Volvo, which has some pretty cool, you know. It's not a hottest thing.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Yeah, it has the fold-down booster seat, right? I think that's awesome.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Well, we have we have a couple months to work on it.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Well, congratulations. I'm so happy for you guys. I'm a pusher of kids because, again, you seem less crazy when you travel with other people with more kids. And the only people I hang out with are Brett and his family. So I needed them to like up their kid count so I wouldn't look as crazy.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So we could have two Brittany's. Could she be Brittany the second? Is that how it works? I don't know. That's a good question. Even if it's not in the same family, can it be Brittany the second? Brittany the higher?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Because mine is not, you know, blonde. I don't know if yours is going to be blonde, but more likely yours is blonde than mine. So we have Brittany the darker, Brittany the lighter. Let's just go ahead and cancel ourselves right now. Yeah, why not?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Thanks for living life with us, guys. This is like... Yeah. This is real real. We are in the midst of it. I can imagine maybe in like five to eight years, we look back and we're like, how the heck did we do it?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I don't want a fifth podcast. What are you talking about?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I don't want a fifth podcast or a fifth child right now. So just, you know, cool it, cool it.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I feel like we are just having children into our new podcast, which is about kids, like parents, right?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Oh my goodness. Anyways, I really am so happy for you guys. That was a really great little treat for our 45 best friends right here.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
It wasn't secret. If you saw me in person, it was definitely not a secret.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I was very pregnant and they were like, pretending like they didn't look below my eyeballs. And I was like, you guys, I'm so pregnant.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I think I was like eight and a half months pregnant.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
That's what you don't know. Yeah. That's the behind the scenes.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Man, I hope Huggies, like, I hope they actually sponsor us by sending us diapers. Because they can pay us in diapers and it would be about the same thing right now. Diapers are gold right now.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
We got you, baby. We got you, babies.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So many babies. Prosecute parenting. I like that.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Yeah. I mean, it's true, right? Because I mean, there would be a lot of anecdotes because I'm already working on them. My oldest is not that old, but he's in first grade. But I try to use my like scare tactics on him and his friends all the time. They'll be like, blah, blah, blah. Well, you'll go to jail. And I was like, you know who actually gets put to jail by me? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And they're like, you're kind of scary.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Yeah. Unfortunately, the prosecutor side really rubs off.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
We're kidding, guys. We're so tired. We're not kidding about the baby. We're kidding about the third podcast.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Someone go commit a crime. We'll do it. We'll figure it out.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Oh, man. Yeah, you're really going to carry dry January into vacation?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Also, it's not fun to do it when you're with your kids.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And everything takes extra effort. Yeah. So, like, I'd be working out all the time. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Maybe a smoothie. I mean, a smoothie.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
I'm not going to lie, that made me a little bit confused. No, and another thing about the theory about the 9mm bullet coming out of the .40 caliber gun is that's probably unlikely too because we have, despite the whole, it could blow up in your face and kill you if you put a 9mm in there, is that the way the clustering of the bullets are found, right?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
The cluster suggests, and look, why, I don't know, if this were an ambush, what is the purpose of Jason Woolley shooting one bullet into the ground? to set off a shootout where nobody knows whose bullets kills whom. But all eyes are on the one shooter, which is Jason, and you want him to be clean as a whistle.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So it doesn't actually help his plan if he fires one shot into the ground, but then starts running after someone shooting them with their gun. Because I would think the purpose of the ambush is he sets off the domino effect to allow the shootings to happen, but he can have clean hands, so to speak. So that doesn't really work with the ambush theory.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Right. And so the reason these three episodes may seem a bit confusing is because essentially we're talking about two stories. We're talking about what happened at the club. And then we're also talking about, in conjunction, Pablo's timeline and whether those two fit together. So let's talk about Pablo's girlfriend.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
So at some point in July, Pablo did have an all-night conversation with his ex-girlfriend, Anel. Pablo would tell police this occurred the night of the shooting. Remember the timeline? He says that he got back from his long-haul driving, goes home, eats some Lucky Charms, and then drives to his girlfriend's house.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And apparently he says that they had an all-night conversation, which would be a good alibi because then it would mean he is somewhere, not at the shooting. And in fact, Pablo would tell Anel he thought it was the same night. Now, Anel wasn't sure. So she went to her job and determined that the conversation would have occurred on a night she had the next day off as she would want to sleep in.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And she worked on the 16th, which is the day after the murder, because of looking at the calendar and thinking about probably wanting to have an all night conversation when she could sleep in. She then believes and concludes that the conversation Pablo remembers having occurred two weeks later on the 29th instead of on the 15th, the night of the shooting.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
And this is because she also believed that she'd gone to the doctor around when the conversation occurred. So it's not that she definitively remembers this is not the night of the shooting. She's looking at her calendar and piecing together when she thinks it happened. And she, based on kind of things in her calendar, she thinks it actually happened two weeks later.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
However, Anel also indicated that this conversation Pablo talks about occurred around a phone call she believed they'd had in late July. But the phone call she thinks this conversation is about, actually happened on July 13th, which would be two days before the night of the shooting. So what happened here? Is Pablo confused about when this conversation happened? Is Anel?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Was Pablo asking Anel to just make up an alibi for him?
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Hermosa. Hermosa. Español. Muy bien.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Thank you. Whoever suggested it.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Whatever. I was going to say Brett would never say that.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
That's not true. Thanks, Madison. And way to go pronouncing that. That was muy hermoso. Hermosa. Hermosa.
The Prosecutors
291. The Wrongful Conviction of Pablo Velez, Jr Part 3 of 3
Here's the trouble with kind of not having clean hands in general, right? The reason he probably didn't question his friend on these things is he is around a gang hangout. Things like this happen probably all the time that don't involve someone getting killed, of course, something less, I guess, damaging than that.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So now in March 1993, remember from last time, Damien's family, his sister, dad and mom had been living in Oregon and they put him on a bus and sent him back to Arkansas where he wanted to be. Now, in March, Damien's parents and sister moved back to Arkansas from Oregon. And Damien had already been in Arkansas for about a year. Now, his parents followed.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
But at this point, he and his sister, Michelle, have missed so much school that neither of them end up going to school once they're in Arkansas because they wouldn't have passed the grade anyway. So they were just going to like wait out the year and then start again, which I don't know if that's allowed. But there you have it. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
It's the 90s, right? Truancy may not have been as strictly enforced or not, but you're seeing again kind of the instability because what do you have when you go to school? You have community. You have other eyes on you, whether it be teachers or coaches or guidance counselors or access to other friends, that sort of thing, right? So we are beginning to see the situation that he's in.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Not only did he move cross country by himself and then his family came afterwards. He's not in like a stable school setting where lots of eyes are on him. Now, this next thing I'm going to tell you about, take it with a grain of salt because you'll understand once I tell it to you.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Hi, Brett. I don't know that I'm timely, but thanks for saying that. You know why? Because we are going to get through this case in a timely manner. So far, at this rate, that's a joke. That's a joke. We're doing pretty good. We're doing pretty good. For those of you who are like, oh, they said it's going to be an ex-parter. We have no idea. We have no self-control.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
But on March 1st, 1993, Jennifer Ball is a teenager who knew Damien and she is on the phone with her friend Amanda Lancaster during a storm while she's on the phone. Damien Echols appears outside of Jennifer's window shouting, quote, you bitch, I'll get you. I'm going to kill you. You're going to die. It's unclear exactly what spurred this.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And later on, Jennifer would tell the police that she could hear Damien in her mind telling her he was going to kill her. Take that for what it's worth. Now, after Damien is arrested, Jennifer claimed that she received a phone call telling her that she would have been Damien's next victim. So a lot of suggestion there, obviously, because at this point, Damien's been arrested.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
He's been in the news. You know, what he's been accused of is a horrific triple murder. But that is what Jennifer reports.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Right. And to step away from this specific case, whenever we see something horrific, especially when it's in our own community, we tend to internalize it and think about, you know, we're all like egotistical by nature. It's OK. It's just the way like society continues on is we want self-preservation is you naturally put yourself into, oh, my goodness, what if it was me?
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Or I had an interaction with him or one time he said something to me. What if I was next? So it's very natural for that to happen. But obviously, with such a highly publicized and highly graphic perspective, murder, you can see why a lot of these stories are coming out.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And like Brett said, it might just be hard to suss out what's actually happening at the time versus looking back once they know he's being accused of this crime, then playing things back with that sort of hindsight vision.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So even if we wanted it to be a certain number of parts, like we could stick to it.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Yeah, I didn't know until we dove into this either. And especially this isn't just another breakup, just another fight. I mean, he's completely moved out by that night, which is a pretty serious step in terms of breaking up. So that brings us to Wednesday, May 5th. Obviously, we're going to go into a lot more detail of the timeline here.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Some may call them rabbit trails. Some may call them rabbit holes.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
That's a great preface on the times. We will say the times, but please take them with a grain of salt. You'll see as we go through how some of the times change. And as we've said many times before, eyewitness testimony is incredibly faulty because few of us have perfect internal clocks. And even as things are happening, we don't necessarily note the time until after the fact.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And then you're looking at it in hindsight. That's why we try to peg it to things like TV shows or Sunset. But even that you'll see comes with a faulty memory. So that morning, Damien's mom takes him to an appointment he has at the East Arkansas Mental Health Center. It's a standing appointment he has due to his prior struggles with mental illness.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
On the way home, she stops at the pharmacy to drop off a prescription for Damien that she will pick up the next morning. There is some debate about when exactly she picks up this prescription. But as you can see, this day is starting off basically as what we've seen for Damien for the past couple of years. Mental health help, mental health problems, needing prescriptions, this sort of thing.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
But that morning, he has an appointment and is with his mom relatively early. Around 1 p.m., Damien's mom drops him off at Domini's, his girlfriend's,
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
after jason gets out of school damien wants to hang out with him but jason has to cut his uncle's grass so they don't spend much time together jason dominie and damien go to the laundromat where dominie and damien will get picked up at a later time at one fifteen some one steals a car It is the 665th criminal case opened in West Memphis that year.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
This is going to be relevant here because a lot is going to be said about the case number that is assigned to this case. So in other words, the crime preceding this is the 665th case.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So around 3.10 p.m., so shortly after school lets out, John Mark Byers, who's Chris's adoptive father, arrives home and he expects to see Chris, but Chris is not there.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Sometime between 3.15 and 3.30, this is from a 2009 affidavit, Jamie Clark Ballard will recall walking home with Ryan Clark, Chris Byers' older brother, and as they arrived at home, Mark Byers was in the driveway telling Ryan to find his brother. Ryan Clark would tell police he got home at exactly 3.38 p.m. So Chris isn't home when John is home.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Around the same time, Michael Moore stops by the Hobbs household and asks if Stevie can come play. Initially, Pam says no, but they eventually wear her down and she says yes. It's a decision that she says will haunt her. She told Stevie Branch if he isn't home by 4.30, he'd be grounded.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And I wonder if it was pretty commonplace, right? Like the difference between 4.30 and 6.30 is sunset, right? Even if you didn't have a watch, there's like a pretty big difference between pretty soon after school when it's still daylight and basically knowing that the sun is setting, right? Wherever you are. And maybe this is something they do all the time. Maybe, I don't know.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
But I was taking note of this today when I was riding bikes with my seven-year-old at 4.30 and just thinking how... You know, if three hours later he still wasn't home, it would be, you know, beyond panic. If he wasn't home in one hour, actually, it'd be beyond panic.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So I agree with you that this particular thing, I'd always expected her to say he better be home by dinnertime rather than 4.30, which is kind of on the early side for dinnertime. But it's actually relatively early and he clearly doesn't make it home by 4.30. And I think it's still very well playing at this time.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
What? This case controversial? Never. The only controversial thing you'll say.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Yeah. I mean, we have like, you know, Stevie's mom saying that Michael came to ask for Stevie to play and the two of them ran off together. So it'd be kind of strange for them to be separated at this point, too.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
That's right. So we start back in January of 1993, specifically January 19th. Damien describes abuse he's suffered and he says that he just suppresses it all inside. And when he talks about this, he describes this anger simmering inside of him as more like rage. The next day, medical records note that Damien has thoughts of killing himself and others.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
As we know, that's part of why he's being institutionalized because of these suicidal ideations. Damien says that the rage leads him to blow up. And when that happens, the only solution is to hurt someone. He says that he's been told he could be the next Charles Manson or Ted Bundy. And he says that people will remember him.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So around 4.30 to 5, Heather Cliette, who is maybe Jason Baldwin's girlfriend, tries to call him, but there's no answer. And she calls again at 6.15, but the line at this point is busy. The 90s, full of call waiting. Oh yeah, and that's another thing. So many movie plots wouldn't happen.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Right here. So 5 o'clock, Catherine Fleming, who lives at Mayfair Apartments next to Robin Hood Hills, says she sees all three boys riding on their bikes. Again, remember, one of the boys, Chris, doesn't have a bike. 5.15, 8.24 holiday, Christy Blanchard saw two of the boys, one with a scout t-shirt and one with a white t-shirt, at approximately 5.15 on Wednesday, riding bikes.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
I'm actually surprised that more of the sightings so far don't mention it because it's one of the few distinctive things you can remember. Like three kids with three types of sneakers, I'm not going to remember what colors they are, but a Scout outfit would kind of stand out very much so.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So I'm actually surprised that of all the sightings so far, this is the first time we hear the description with the Scout, which again may point to the previous sightings as not completely accurate or... You know, with the passage of time, trying to fill in holes.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So the first 530 is about to happen. So before you at us, we recognize not all of these things could happen. And that's exactly the problem with trying to figure out the timeline on this day. So the first version of 530, Jeff Martins sees the boys heading down Goodwin towards Robin Hood.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
By the way, like, I mean, you can see that this history that he has, it's all leading up to now. This is not the first time he has been explosive. The first time he has expressed suicidal ideations or wanting to hurt other people. It's been something that has...
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
He says they waved at him and he describes it as one boy riding on his bike and another boy with two boys on the bike. He also says there was a boy walking and his mother will confirm that they saw four boys. The at least two kids sharing a bike would make sense in the sense that Chris didn't have a bike. But here again, you have maybe four boys coming into the picture.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
followed him with kind of his tumultuous childhood with, you know, his father leaving, then coming back in the picture with a stepfather who adopts him. And then there's allegations of abuse towards his sister. So all of these things, this is not overnight. You can see that there's been a long history of leading up to where this is. So much so that it's apparent to those around him.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
People are telling him to his face that he's going to be the next serial killer. I mean, I don't think anybody's ever told him that.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
How do I know? He is, I mean, that's like a real high goal and a dark goal to be reaching towards. But all of this to show, this is still months before the murders we're going to talk about here. Already we're seeing the profile of a very disturbed young man emerging.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
I mean, up to this point, remember, there are the three boys, four boys, three bikes, not bikes. But now that we have him basically across town from where all the other sightings were, and he was on his skateboard, not with the other boys, being whipped by, you know, his stepfather. You can see why all of these eyewitness testimonies, it's really hard to know what is right.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And not that any of these people are lying. People want to be helpful and they may have seen people. This is a neighborhood with lots of kids backing up to an elementary school. It wouldn't be surprising to me that these people all did see kids, whether they were the three that we are interested in right now or not is another question.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So sometime between 530 and 6, Deborah Otinger of 1309 Goodwin sees boys in her yard. Then they start heading to Robin Hood. During the same period, Kim Williams, a friend of Dawn's, sees Stevie and Michael, but not Chris, heading in the direction of Robin Hood Hills.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
When they had mentioned earlier going to their secret fort behind Mayfair, again, that's probably Robin Hood Hills. You can imagine if there were other boys with them, and if they are sharing bikes or whatever, and someone has to go home, maybe they all go, and they maybe all leave to bring mystery boy home, and in returning, pick up Chris or something along the lines.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
This is something I can see, especially if you have a secret fort, and there's multiple of you, people joining in, people leaving. There can be lots of reasons for going in and out. Now, between five and six, Terry Hobbs, who probably wasn't that worried about Stevie, goes over to David Jacoby's with his daughter Amanda to play guitar. This is in the midst of him kind of looking for Stevie.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Now, Terry agrees that he went over, but he denies that he was there to play guitar.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
So at 545, Alan Bailey Jr. tells police that he sees the boys and that Michael Moore tells him they are in a hurry. Stevie Branch was with Michael but didn't say anything. They were on their way to pick up Chris Byers. Bailey says both boys had their backpacks on and that Stevie was wearing red shorts with white shoes.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
This is a little strange as the missing persons report has Stevie wearing blue jeans. Moreover, no bags were ever found with the boys.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
I'm still nervous because when the timeline doesn't fit, it gets me very anxious.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
No, that's not how we're going to go about this case. There's so many like square holes, you know, circle pegs, whatever sort of things with this case.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
This shows you why eyewitness testimony is so faulty, right? Because these boys are known to these people and they probably see them every single day, whether they saw them this day. This is a lot like Lacey Peterson in the sightings, right?
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
I think everyone truly remembers these times and seeing them, except they all know each other and they are always boys playing outside that it's so difficult to pin down to what really happened that afternoon.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
All we have is the Muppet Babies so far. Yeah, exactly. Which is not even helpful because Chris leaves.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And we'll get more into his records and whatnot. But I don't know. I'm curious, Brett, if this stuck out to you from the very beginning and just reading about who he is and reading his writings from then all the way until now. The thing with Damien, though, is he is very good at... being poetic, right? The way he speaks, the way he describes things.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Fantastic question. Really fantastic question. No, I think we can both tag team them because I think it's really easy to make broad statements like circumstantial evidence isn't trustworthy or direct evidence is the best or touch DNA never works. We never say touch DNA. itself doesn't matter. Context is everything, just like every single case. That's truly why we love what we do, right?
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
There is not a single crime or a single case that we prosecute that's the exact same. There is no formula for this. So it's not that touch DNA itself doesn't matter. You have to look at the context. So because you are so good with Adnan, I'll let you do Adnan. The reason Brian Koberger, it matters is there was no reason for him to be in that house whatsoever. And it is on the knife sheath
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
that ended up killing them on top of, I think, one of the victim's bodies. So it places him there. A knife sheath is something that you hold, presumably as you are unsheathing it in order to commit the murders with the murder weapon. Not, and I'll pass it on to you, the bottom of a shoe that often touches lots of DNA that was not even on the victim's body.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
There's a reason why people have been drawn to what he writes, because he's very good with his words, so much so that when he says things like this, that people will not forget me, I'll be the next Ted Bundy, that sort of thing. He tends to speak in very, like,
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And why that's such a good question, I think absolutely illustrates why we always joke that we're so long winded, because none of these pieces of evidence or these theories fit into neat boxes.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
And that's why when you are fed like a one liner, you know, clickbait about a case, they're almost always wrong because it's really hard to describe these very complex, contextualized explanations for evidence in a heading that will grab people's attentions. So that is why it's such a good question and why we're so... long-winded because there's a lot to explain on these sorts of things.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
grand gestures and that is kind of a euphemism for he seems to hyperbolize and lie in the way he says just because as we're going to see he's going to say things that just can't possibly be true or they contradict each other and it's almost like whenever he speaks or whenever he describes himself even in the documentaries later on after the conviction he molds into whoever you kind of want him to be that's my impression of reading all these things but all of his self-assessments are inconsistent with each other
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
You guys, that's like five years late. That was rumor in year one. Get with the times. Now the rumor's like, you know, how many times has he stolen my clue award? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
You know, every time you say that, though, I'm like, you're just feeding the rumors because they're like, y'all have seven kids? Yeah. No.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Do I? You do. Well, you guys complimented my hair. My hair looks great.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Well, this is because I have spit up on my shirt, so I had to cover it up before I came in here. You guys, there's a great answer for all of these compliments. Thanks. And my hair hasn't been brushed in a long time, but I'm finally going to get it cut tomorrow.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
No, but I think the natural sheen needs to be washed. Oh, yes.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
I remember one of the things that we consistently hear is people say that, oh, they're conflating, you know, Wiccan or, you know, Wicca and Satanism. He's never mentioned Satan. He's never mentioned like demons. He's only one with the earth. Here in his own words, he's saying that he talks to demons and spirits and that he wants to or does feel like a God.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
By the way, that's exactly what Lucifer said when he took his path to be Satan was he wanted to feel like God or he was God in this world. So that's also misleading because having just watched Paradise Lost, I also was like, oh, he never talks about Satanism that was put on him. Here we have him saying these exact words.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
Again, just noting that a lot of the unfair characterizations put on why he was honed in on actually come from his own words.
The Prosecutors
300. West Memphis 3 Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
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The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
That was excellent. I have no idea what language or what that means, but I'm going to take it as fantastic. Fantastic.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
One of the things that was strange about his body was that one crampon was missing. For those of you who don't know what a crampon is, it's literally like a metal claw that you attach to the bottom of your shoe. Imagine like, I don't know, just the outside of an ice skate, basically. And you strap it onto your foot. And this is important because when you are climbing ice,
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
any icy terrain, you have crampons on because that's how your feet dig into the ice to keep you from slipping. And because it's used in slippery terrain, they're usually like leather types of straps that strap onto your shoe tight enough that they don't slip off because you can imagine if they slip off easily, the crampons are of no use. In other words, they typically don't fall off on their own.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Even when you take a hard tumble down a mountain, They're one of the last things you lose if they are properly secured on. That's why the note from his wife specifically mentioned crampons. If you're going to be hiking this, you need crampons.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And the fact that he has one and not the other indicates kind of something that I'm going to say violent, but something kind of catastrophic on the outside that would remove it if he were not the one removing it. Something like a fall. But... It's not consistent with you just trudging along and, oh, there goes my shoe. That's typically not what happens with crampons.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Yeah. And remember, on this trip, they don't find Janet Johnson. Fast forward a few months, February 9th, 1975, 17-year-old Alberto Colombero was climbing Aconcagua with his father, Ernesto, and another man, Guillermo Vieiro. Now, due to an unforeseen storm, probably not unlike the one that Brett had to endure on his Machu Picchu trip,
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Well, thank you. Thank you very much. And good job. That was like, you guys haven't seen this because you have the glories of editing. That only took Brett about 10 minutes to practice his pronunciation. It was great.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
The trio had to abandon their trek to the summit, and they headed back down the mountain via the Polish glacier. So that wasn't their original route, but because of the storm, they had to go this route. Now, Alberto noticed something red to his right, which he initially thought was a tarp, a tent, or some sort of backpack left in the snow.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
But when they went over to check out this red thing, Alberto realized that it was not abandoned gear left by a fellow mountain climber. It was the body of Janet Johnson. She was found face up and her face had blackened from two years of exposure and it was battered in three places. Now, this you may expect because she's been out in the open for a couple of years in the elements.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
It's cold up there. So you can imagine the blackenedness might not be that surprising. But this next part is not necessarily what you would expect if you had found a climber who had just fallen asleep where they were and died of hypothermia.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
you see what they saw on her face was that there was white bone sticking out of her nose and her forehead and her chin and even more gruesomely her skin hung down like a flap and there were blood stains on her face and jacket Certainly not what you would expect if she had fallen into the snow and fallen asleep.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Now, not unlike Cooper, she also had a crampon that was missing from one foot and ropes were tangled around her. Her hands were bare and her light jacket was unzipped. And also like Cooper, they could not find her ice axe. Now, the slope where she was found was shallow, which contradicted Zeller's story that they took a big fall together.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Remember, he had said that they were tied together and all of a sudden they fell and the force of the fall actually separated the two of them. But this isn't where she's found. Like Cooper, she's found in kind of a shallow slope. And there was also a rock sitting on top of Johnson's body. Now, the hikers who found her believed that someone had murdered Johnson and tried to make it look like
The Prosecutors
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She fell. Now, these men who were just on their own hike, they weren't properly equipped to bring Janet's body down the mountain. So they dug it out to make it easier for a recovery team to properly remove it later. And when they did this, they noticed a ring on her finger, which they took and passed along to an American hiker they saw on the trail named Alan Steck.
The Prosecutors
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Alan mailed this ring to Janet's sister a couple months later.
The Prosecutors
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again kind of shows you that i mean this is incredible of them to even take the time to do this and i think kind of shows the climbing community typically what you have in a climbing community right these three men don't know janet johnson but when they see the ring they're not taking it off to pilfer it they're taking it off in hopes that it can be the one part of her body that can go back to her loved ones and so they pass it on to an american who does just that
The Prosecutors
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mail it to someone that they don't know. That's the type of camaraderie I think you typically see among the climbing community, which is why if you rewind back to that journalist who interviewed the group at the hotel before they even set off, note at the very beginning, This dynamic for the group seems very off. They seem very segregated from each other.
The Prosecutors
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You're beginning to see why he could pick up on that so quickly when you see the actions of complete strangers to Janet Johnson, who just are fellow climbers.
The Prosecutors
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It does not roll off the tongue on this one. Aconcagua. It's still hurting me. But since we last recorded the first episode, it has been haunting me. I think I've had no fewer than three nightmares about this case because it's haunting. It truly is. And I don't think I will ever hike again in my life.
The Prosecutors
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That's like, again, out of you couldn't write a novel like this, right? As the investigation is getting going, a military coup halts the entire investigation. I'm not saying this is a massive conspiracy to cover up the deaths of Cooper and Johnson.
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But what unfortunate timing, because, of course, with the government now no longer the government, there is absolutely no further inquiry into their deaths. And essentially nothing happens. Nothing happens for 50 years, almost 50 years later. Now it's February 2020. A camera was found on the Polish glacier route, and a man named Marcus Calamaro found this camera and brought it down to camp.
The Prosecutors
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And once there, another man, Ulysses Corvallon, recognized the name on the bottom of that camera, Janet Johnson. A photographer, Pablo Betancourt, was also at the camp and he recognized the potential significance of the evidence that may be in the photos on this camera. So he preserved it as best as he could and headed back down the mountain with this new found camera.
The Prosecutors
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Thank goodness, by the way, that these people preserved the camera as opposed to just leave it. A lot of gear is left on the mountainside. So it's incredible, actually, that it was found, that someone recognized the significance of it and brought it down. And they didn't do just that. So Pablo Betancourt contacted the New York Times and Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Cooper maybe was a government agent. Assassins who crossed the nearby Chilean border came for him. You know, people have really speculated wildly because the conditions of their body and the lack of answers leaves this vacuum for conspiracy theories.
The Prosecutors
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And over the years, the surviving members of the expedition have passed away one by one. Remember, except for really one or two of them, they were all already in their 50s at the time of the climb. So with the passage of time, they too have left this earth and taking with them any secrets that the Aconcagua expedition held. And I hate a mystery that doesn't have an answer, Brett.
The Prosecutors
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Well, here, let me give you a little bit. You're not full conspiracy theorist. Like we said, there have been over 100 people who have died on the same path. And their autopsies, many of them have had autopsies done.
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And the people who conducted the autopsies on Cooper and Johnson, the ones who see them, we always say, you know, those closest to whatever the report is, you should be listening to them first. The ones who saw with their own eyes, operated on their corpses with their hands, don't believe that this was the accident of the hundreds they've seen. That says a lot. Right.
The Prosecutors
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I don't know how to do autopsies, but they see these types of injuries all the time. And they are not concluding that the hundred other people who've died on the side of this mountain were all due to ice screws and murder on the mountain. So I think there does leave some space for an alternative theory, whether you want to call it conspiracy or not.
The Prosecutors
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I'll join your conspiracy theory with you. The only thing that points away from it is how did they get all their stories together? And Dafoe clearly knew something was up, even though there's only four of the whole group. Remember, much of the group, half of the group had already gone down for different reasons because they got ill, what have you. So only four were on top of that mountain.
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But I think the fact that they called this meeting, even though half of the group was not even there to bear witness or to be implicated in whatever horrific event happened up on that mountain. It was so out of the ordinary. They were all climbers, right? Maybe none quite as experienced as Janet, but they were all climbers.
The Prosecutors
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And even they knew something was up, even though half of the group was not up there. So much so that it was so horrific that if it ever came out, even though the other half of the group was not up on the mountain, they could be held somehow liable that Dafoe being the risk averse lawyer, legalist knew that they had to get their story together.
The Prosecutors
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So the fact that they had that meeting, I think really points to they knew something even if nothing was said. And it may have been as simple as you guys shut your mouths. I don't want to hear what you have to say. So we're just going to plot out what happened. Because it's one of those like put your fingers in your ears, la, la, la, la, la.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
I don't actually want to know what happened on that mountain because whatever it was, I know enough about the dynamics and what typically happens on an expedition that nothing good can happen if Zeller opens his mouth. So you're not going to. So the fact that Dafoe, who wasn't even up there, calls this meeting, I think points to the fact that the group knew something was up.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Well, before they even came down the mountain, I think there's a reason that the Argentinian police was already at base camp questioning people so soon when hundreds of people die on this mountain. This happens. People die on these treacherous conditions. And this was a treacherous condition that they were hiking in. And I do think I agree with you. I don't think it was a love triangle.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
I don't think they liked each other. I think there maybe is something that we can draw from Janet Johnson's camera. We know that she was a bit of a loner. Others describe her, at least in diaries, it's described as at the expense of everyone else. She's only thinking about herself to get to the summit. And so already there's some discontent there. The fact that her pictures are also beautiful...
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and capturing, you know, this is why she climbs, right? The world around her in the 70s, she had come out, she had a tough community. This is where she found beauty. And I think we're seeing a slice of why she loves climbing through her camera.
The Prosecutors
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But we're also maybe seeing how things were very difficult up there, whether it be the hypoxia, whether it be having to be on the side of the mountain for multiple days in a row when they couldn't reach the summit. She's stopping and taking these photos. That is very... It's for herself, but it's also indicative of her personality.
The Prosecutors
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That she's going to find this beauty and find the joy of what she's doing, but it's not communal. What she's doing is not communal. I mean, these photos, they're stunning. They're beautiful. But it's not pictures of people... Arms around each other, drinking beers. They're all on the side of the mountain, no beers to be had.
The Prosecutors
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But I think that is setting her apart from the group and that there's growing discontent for her already. And I do think whoever died first, the other one died because they were a witness to whatever happened. I do think how gruesome Cooper's death was probably indicates that he was 150 yards away from camp. He could send word. It was all going to be over, what, three or four city blocks?
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
We heard that described. They knew how far he was from camp. He was much too close to basically the outside world that would blow the whole thing up. And so he was ended three or four city blocks from camp.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
It's a great point, because remember, two years later, when those three hikers, the 17 year old boy finds her body, what do they do? They take her ring. of sentimental value because this could be them. They could be climbing a mountain. They don't know why she's died. They just know she's dead. What do they do to a complete stranger?
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
They take a sentimental item of value, her ring, to send back to someone they don't even know if they exist. But if they do, they would like to do this for the stranger that they find on the side of the mountain. What do they know about Cooper, his expedition mates? They know he has a diary because he writes in it every night. He writes in it a lot. You look over, you're in a very small base camp.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
You're going to see what other people do. Most of them have diaries. So they know he has a diary and they know it's on him. What could be more sentimental for your surviving wife than the note that she sent to you in the journal that you wrote your last words in? Right?
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
That doesn't take much time to reach down and take the journal back with you if you're like, I'm not equipped with a toboggan to bring his body down. But you can take his journal that you know he has, especially if that's all you can take back. They don't do that. Right.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
That's something that you would at the very least expect, especially when you see two years later, total strangers do something like that for Janet Johnson. Who doesn't love the good things in life? Even though I enjoy a little luxury, it doesn't mean I can always afford it. Until I discovered Quince. Quince is my go-to for luxury essentials at affordable prices.
The Prosecutors
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The Prosecutors
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The Prosecutors
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Go to quince.com slash prosecutors for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash prosecutors to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash prosecutors. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Who's your support system and how have they changed your life?
The Prosecutors
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I know for me, there have been some incredible mentors in my life who have really helped me think through next steps in both personal and professional decisions. But think about your favorite leaders and mentors and idols. They don't have all the answers, but they do know when to ask questions or seek support from their community.
The Prosecutors
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The Prosecutors
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The Prosecutors
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The Prosecutors
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So I think there was an interest in making sure whatever happened stayed a mystery. And I think they succeeded. I think this will remain a mystery in the sense that we will not know more information than we know today, likely, because the people who know the real information are gone. And that is very sad for Johnson and Cooper.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
But the one, I guess, small, small solace we have is that their names can still, you know, because of this beautiful article by the New York Times, long form journalism and other stories like this, maybe at least if they have names. Family members who are still alive know that they are not forgotten, that at least two podcasters question the official story that exists out there.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And the other thing is, man, if I'm ever murdered, I really hope the government where I am murdered is not falling. Doesn't collapse. And then the investigation is stalled because of it. So, like, again, I'm not that big of a conspiracy theorist. I don't think that they actually military couped the government to stall this investigation.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
But that would be the ultimate conspiracy theory is Defoe started the coup.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
It's like the best case brief you ever. It's more interesting than any case notes you can find.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
So gotcha moments don't happen if the pre-trial stuff is going as planned because you're not allowed to spring anything on either side. That's what Discovery is for. Obviously, you've heard of Brady obligations. You have to turn over everything. And that's because you don't want...
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
to win in court and there's less justice when there are gotcha moments you want both sides to be fully prepared for what the other side is going to bring and be fully prepared to counter it or not counter it that's how we as a justice system try to get to the truth right it's not a gotcha i prepared better than you it's rather i'm going to show you every move i'm going to do on the chessboard there's going to be no surprises
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And the best that gets to the truth is what ultimately happens. So it is not gamesmanship, but rather chipping away at the block of justice to reach closer and closer to truth. So those Matlock gotcha moments, they're not supposed to happen in court.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
That's brilliant, because, you know, in the first episode, we had said how the mountain was a character in the story. As your experience, the mountain was kind of a character in the story as well. But it sounds like you were not suffering from kind of mental hallucinations due to altitude, which I wonder...
The Prosecutors
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And by the way, this is absolutely true. So if you go to a good lawyer, whether it's a civil or criminal case, they do what we do, which is project for you what will happen in your case.
The Prosecutors
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They're going to say, okay, we might get a little bit more information and discovery on this, but this is how I see it playing out for you, which is why a good lawyer, when they know the evidence is stacked against you, actually try to get you a good plea deal and may even try to say, hey, you know what? It's in your best interest to take responsibility and
The Prosecutors
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Get that additional credit from the government in terms of sentencing and plead guilty now. Or in a civil case, this is just, you know, free legal advice. They tell you, yes, I'll take this case on for you, but I want you to know this is how it's like. I tell my clients this all the time. I'm like, this is the best we can hope for. And it's not a total win. And here's why, why, and why.
The Prosecutors
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I don't want you on the back end to be surprised. I'm not going to tell you sweet nothings just so that you'll hire me. I want you to know the truth. And that's because we are trained to apply the facts of the law and there are not supposed to be gotcha moments. I'm not always going to know how judge is going to rule. And of course, there's going to be things around the margin.
The Prosecutors
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We always say that trial is a live circus. You never know what's going to come out of someone's mouth. But it's you not knowing what's going to come out of someone's mouth, not how it's going to apply to the law.
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how much of what we're going to see today can be attributed to being out of one's mind or being completely in control of your mind and trying to avoid responsibility for a heinous crime.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
All direction from clients, because that's why would you hire a lawyer then? But anyways, these are great questions. Hope you enjoyed this free legal advice. It's not legal advice. This is for entertainment purposes only.
The Prosecutors
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I think that's fine. Nothing. It's just the little squigglies look weird. Like, it's fine. But the sound is fine.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
You know how sometimes if you change the... It's like a graph.
The Prosecutors
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If you change the metrics. But I think it's fine because it's hitting 12.
The Prosecutors
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No, it's not that. It's that I have no memory of anything. You're just the best.
The Prosecutors
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Your hair is fantastic. I just can't see it because it's right where it cuts off. There you go. That's amazing. Wow. Best haircut I've ever seen in my life.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
I was going to say, get your story straight much? Okay, I am not a member of a climbing club, but this immediately struck out as strange to me as well. I mean, we're talking about people, some of them are part of this climbing club, but they are all dispersed. So this isn't like they're all part of the same fraternity in the same city.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
This is actually a pretty dispersed across the country climbing club, right? So how do they have this authority, first of all? And does this typically happen in climbing clubs when there is a...
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
death or a mysterious death on a climbing trip to get your story straight because how does that implicate the climbing club who it's just a club right i i can't imagine what liability the club itself may have so i mean i'm curious you seem to love all these climbing things do you know why that may be
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And a month later, in April 1973, Janet Johnson's family held a funeral service at a Minneapolis church, although Johnson's body also hadn't been recovered and her mother was not expecting it back.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
Apparently, because remember, Janet was a very seasoned climber, she had given explicit instructions that if anything were to happen to her on the climb, she wanted her body buried at the small cemetery by the Aconcagua Trailhead. So she had never anticipated that this would happen. But if it did, she didn't want her body shipped back.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
So all along, the memorial service in the United States, at least, was going to be without a body. Now, nothing really happens for about half a year. Fast forward to November of 1973, a four person team led by Miguel Alfonso was assembled to recover the bodies. Remember, Alfonso was the guide who was going to take this American group up this particular path.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And he had been up this path successfully one time prior. A National Geographic reporter and photographer named Lauren McIntyre also joined the group to document this expedition. On November 20th, 1973, when they were on this expedition to look for Cooper and Johnson's bodies, Cooper's body was discovered about 150 yards uphill from camp.
The Prosecutors
294. The Aconcagua Mystery Part 2
And it was described in the New York Times that he was stretched out on relatively flat terrain. His legs extended and crossed. His hands were bare across his abdomen. His jacket was on, but his hood had fallen behind his head. Now, it took days for the teen to maneuver his frozen body down the mountain on a toboggan without damaging his clothes or person.
The Prosecutors
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This is why, by the way, oftentimes in these very treacherous climbs, in these types of conditions, bodies are just left. They're not recovered. now cooper's diary was found with him and inside there were detailed entries about the expedition as well as a note from his wife sandy which read keep roped up and don't forget the crampons as i don't know how i'd replace you
The Prosecutors
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You are by far the best husband and loving one and really good dad in the entire world. Such a sad note. Obviously, this is what he carried with him. It's not easy to carry things up the mountain with you, but he kept this note from his wife close to him and it was with him when he died.
The Prosecutors
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Now, the team, though they found Cooper's body and they were able to maneuver it down by toboggan, this team was not able to locate Janet Johnson's body on the same trip.
The Prosecutors
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We prosecuted some of those cases. We should do a case about that. It's really interesting.
The Prosecutors
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I like Sir Cox a lot. Sir Cox a lot. That was one of the first cases I worked on when I became a prosecutor, actually. Cockfighting.
The Prosecutors
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I bet you. I bet you. Really? You've never been to a cockfight? I've never been to a cockfight.
The Prosecutors
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If it was legal. How do we do legal things? Undercover sting for the cock fighting.
The Prosecutors
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All these agents had to dress like they would be going to a cock fight because they were going to a cock fight, but they had to be undercover. And I've never laughed so hard at our colleagues before. I think one of them literally blacked out his tooth.
The Prosecutors
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And you guys, even if you think you've heard something before, Jason is able to bring out things you never thought about. Just check out these recent episodes. He had an interview with Kimberly Loring, the sister of a 20-year-old missing Montana woman, Ashley Loring Heavenredder, and about her search for her sister, finding faith in God and forgiving those who harmed Ashley.
The Prosecutors
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You'll have to check out this incredible interview he had about journalists in Minnesota and Iowa who are still advocating for and searching for Jodi Husen Truitt, a broadcast journalist who disappeared in 1995. And then there's this interview with a friend of a domestic violence victim who was murdered in 2023 in Minnesota.
The Prosecutors
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about what friends can do to be non-judgmental and supportive of those who are facing interpersonal abuse. You guys have got to check out this incredible podcast, Silver Linings Handbook. You can get it wherever you listen to podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You choose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice.
The Prosecutors
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Progressive loves to help people make smart choices. That's why they offer a tool called AutoQuote Explorer that allows you to compare your progressive car insurance quote with rates from other companies. So you save time on the research and can enjoy savings when you choose the best rate for you. Give it a try after this episode at progressive.com.
The Prosecutors
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Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Oh, God. Oh, God. Sorry.
The Prosecutors
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Oh, I love Finding Nemo. Do you still not let your kids watch TV? We don't watch TV. Wait, can I tell you a really quick story about Nemo, though? Yes. My kids don't watch TV, but they read books, and obviously a lot of these, you know, Disney movies and movies, Pixar movies get turned into books. So we have the finding Nemo book and you know how Nemo is written.
The Prosecutors
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Like it's all wavy, kind of like a sea, whatever, like a wave because it's an oceanic themed movie.
The Prosecutors
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Hey, that's awesome. Do you know what character is in Finding Nemo that I find very interesting? The whale?
The Prosecutors
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Yeah. I like the sharks. Did you see that viral clip that just went by? The whale that actually did swallow the kayaker? The 80 guy?
The Prosecutors
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Yeah. And then he spit him back out. Yeah, can you imagine? That was crazy. Wait, I'm curious. Why did he spit him back out? Because, well... I know that we don't taste good, but he didn't have time to taste him.
The Prosecutors
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This is so important. I don't know why you did it. It's not like we haven't done... How many episodes do we have? Hundreds of times to sign in.
The Prosecutors
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I don't know. I believe in my Bible stories. Jonah and the whale.
The Prosecutors
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I mean, but they eat people. They don't swallow you whole.
The Prosecutors
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That is insane. And my oldest son told me that the other day because I did not know that fact. And somehow you and him should hang out because he was like, what's the largest animal that's ever lived in the world? And I said like the Diplodocus.
The Prosecutors
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Anything. Yeah. One of the dinosaurs with the long tails and the long necks. Surely if you stretch them out, they're longer than a... Nope. Not as big as a blue whale, which is amazing. And they eat like tiny plankton. That's amazing.
The Prosecutors
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I'm sorry. This is not bode well. It doesn't bode well. Do you see how nervous I am? I do. I'm so sorry. Okay, let's start. Let's start again. This cannot be the way we started. Sorry.
The Prosecutors
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that never been eaten by an animal before i've been bitten by a dog like multiple dogs have you been bitten by your dogs i know oh okay okay we'll get to this real quick but speaking of animals i know that your dog is just very protective is all i really barely ever see your dog because you're nice enough to remove him when i come over has he bit you before
The Prosecutors
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I actually find that because I've had dogs that are very bite friendly.
The Prosecutors
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Well, the case we're going to cover is not controversial. Not at all. She said hopefully.
The Prosecutors
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I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You can laugh about how terrible I am. We'll save you a blooper.
The Prosecutors
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We always talk. We always talk when we're nervous.
The Prosecutors
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Okay. So that's not totally fair. That's not totally fair because my kids know what a TV is. We never turn it on. They have watched things before. They watch sports. No.
The Prosecutors
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I mean, TV's on everywhere. This is why it's really hard to stay away. So, like, when we go to our favorite bar, because we take our kids to a bar, there's always football or basketball on. So, you know, it's there.
The Prosecutors
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I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay, I'm ready.
The Prosecutors
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It was Brittany's birthday party at the bar. Let's be honest. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
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This is true. It's a great bar. She it's like a second home to her.
The Prosecutors
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Yeah. And I have plenty of pictures of my second son sitting at the bar. I couldn't find him. And I was like, where is he? He was sitting at the bar chatting it up with the bartender, by the way. And I was like, you get better service than I do.
The Prosecutors
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Yeah, she absolutely could. So no, it's not that... So they've definitely seen things before. We have pulled the like fail safe. We're like, okay, we got to put on a Daniel Tiger because everyone's losing. And oh, here's the thing. When we travel... They can watch all the TV.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I don't know what that is. I don't know what that is. It's awful.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
We really do try to stick with like the Mr. Rogers types and whatnot. And so, no, I would say like in a regular week, seven days a week. What are you talking about? I don't know what you're talking about.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Calou. Okay, let's get started now. Let's get started because I really want to talk about the. Calou is Canadian by the way. I still don't know what you're talking about. Okay.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I don't. Well, I think they have seen an episode before. I think they have seen episodes before, so they know what Bluey is. And I've seen a couple episodes, but we do not. It is not something we watch.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yes. Have I told the story? Have I told the story on the podcast? I don't think you told it on the podcast. I'll tell you my malaria story after that.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Hey, Brett. I am easily distracted. You know what? You know how people are like, you do something so many times in your life, everything becomes rote and it's just boring? That's not my life because apparently I have the memory of a bunny rabbit. I don't know how we sign in. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
We used to do this every summer. I don't know how my parents got me to sit on an 18-hour flight.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And back in the day, those 18 hour flights, especially if you want an Asian airline, the like accoutrements that came with it. Oh, they were great. And I remember this candy cart. There was a candy cart when I was a kid and made those 18 hour trans, you know, Atlantic flights. They would push. I still remember.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
It was like the Bertie Botts Every Flavor Beans from Harry Potter when they would be on the Hogwarts train. Yes. I mean, any candy you wanted, any snack you wanted. And it was just so fun. And you became friends with people on the flight because you had no one else to talk to. It was like life. Yeah, you made life. It was so great.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I have no idea. You were going on a one way trip around the world.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I don't know what it is. They hate the chit chat, the one stars. They hate the chit chat, but you know what? I think we should dive in. I think we should dive in right away because we're probably going to be doing this case for way too long.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I had the psychedelic dreams. They were wasted on me because you could have written about them. I, okay. I don't know if you guys have, so I went to Honduras when I was right after high school. I spent some time there doing, you know, like good, good deeds, whatever you want to call them. Great way to really just fill your body with real parasites. And I came back with lice, parasites, worms.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
It was horrible physically, but I didn't get malaria. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
But the thing is, but the thing is... Can I just say for a second, though, I just this case has just been like on my mind, on my heart, in my dreams. Literally, I texted you, right? I was like, I just dreamt about this case because we've been researching it so long.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yes. Is that what you meant? All those rumors. You're feeding all those rumors. No, that's not what I meant whatsoever. But because I want to get to the case, we have to do justice to this case. We can't go too fast. But at the same time, we kind of have to be fast because we don't have forever to do this case.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
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The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The innocence, you know, childhood, innocence of childhood and how, you know, it seems like just yesterday your kids are in this carefree world.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I would call it rabbit trails. Rabbit trails. What would you call it?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Okay, so I cried a little bit because, you know, I'm passing on some of these baby things to y'all, which I'm very happy to do. But my baby has already outgrown them. Like, we're no longer in that baby. Which just blows your mind, right? Right, because he was literally just born.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And I'm talking to Mrs. Brett, and I'm like, do you need, you know, like the baby swing, the boppy, you know, baby holder? And I was like, we've outgrown it already. I know. He's never going to be that small again.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I mean, your kids are just like, well, we'll get, we'll, we'll get started. But one of my favorite scenes, and this is fed to me on social media all the time is I didn't watch every episode, but I watched a good bit. Have you ever watched modern family?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Okay. One of the greatest speeches, you know, the grandpa, I don't, I honestly cannot remember any of their names, but the patriarch, the grandpa, and he's like the gruff man. And he's, you know, like not touchy feely at all, but there's this amazing speech that he gives about what it's like to be a parent. And every time it comes up on my social media, I watch it in its entirety and I cry.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And the gist of it, I'm not going to do it right. I'm not going to do it right. But he's always gruff. He never hugs his kids, all those sorts of things. And he says, along the lines of your Bluey episode, he's like, when a kid grows up, you don't even have time because life is so fast. You get so excited. And the next phase, you don't even think about how they've just gotten bigger.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And they keep getting bigger. And then they become a teenager. But then one day, they wake up. And they leave your house. But it's not just them leaving their house. They're leaving their house with every iteration of them before, like all the way down to like the little toddler sitting in your lap, down to the little baby who is on that little pillow.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I don't know if they live in holes because so you guys definitely make trails. I used to live in Georgia. And when I grew up, I lived in Georgia. This actually goes very well into this case and played outside all the time. And there were rabbits and bunnies that lived in my backyard, like plentiful. Because if you know about the bunnies, they really know how to procreate.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And he's like, and that's why it breaks you inside because you're not just losing the one child. You're losing, you know, all the versions of the child that you've grown and loved. And I'm like, oh my gosh, all these versions of my child. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Well, you know, I think that's a... But it's terrible. But you know why? But I think that's why it's wonderful. It is the most incredible thing you can do that you have no control. You have... I've never felt so powerless and so inept as I am as a parent, which is wonderful as a human being, because that is the reality of the world.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Like somehow in life, I've been able to get by pretty well in life knowing nothing. Somehow people just keep like passing me in school and I get like jobs and stuff. But parenting, everyone, it's such an even playing field. Like, you know, nothing, you know, nothing, Jon Snow.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I mean, I think that's why we always worry. Like I, people will be like, Oh, why do you, why do you care about them not staying in their seat during dinner time? And I'm like, because it is my job. Like this is, this is a person that I am responsible for in terms of like what I send out into the world for their own good, but for also the like eternity ripple effects. Like it is, it is so huge.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yeah. the like downstream effects of everything you do like you don't know which has to do with the case we're talking about right like right people and how they were raised it's going to literally affect an entire community forever and that is the responsibility of a parent and we're going to talk about parents and boy do we talk about parents in this case and you know even a suspect um
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
but like i mean it is it is just a heavy heavy thing but i mean i'm i clearly obviously have so many kids i agree i mean i think someone had asked me this in one of our question and answers that we didn't quite get to get into because the question answer went so long but they're like did you ever want a big family i think that's interesting because you know
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
You end up with a lot of bunnies. And you nearly had bunnies.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
To some people, I don't have a big family. To others, I am like insane for how many kids I have. So it's a matter of perspective. But truthfully, 10 years ago, no, there was no world where I thought I would have four kids. Not because I didn't want it. I just... It was never something that I was like set out to do, you know, but once I had one kid, I was like, well, I'm done.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Let's just have all the kids. Like, why not, man? Like this is more meaningful than anything I've ever accomplished in my life. And I love it. I'm so tired all the time, but it's so worth it. So worth it.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Takes over the whole yard. Bunnies take over the whole yard. But you look out back in my backyard and it was like this flat greenery, but there were rabbit trails going every which way because rabbits make trails because they are creatures of habit. That's how they stay safe because have you ever seen a rabbit? They got no defense mechanism, right? They can't play dead like an armadillo.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And I say this all the time. I mean, now we're going to get kind of personal, but again, it relates to the story we're talking about now. I didn't not have a good childhood, but... I am getting the privilege of basically having the childhood I wish I had alongside my kids.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And it's not that I'm using my kids to have their childhood, but rather like seeing their utter joy at the magicness of childhood. is like healing the hurts of my childhood, if that makes sense. And like, that's incredible.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I mean, you know, of course that sounds very selfish, but there's this incredibly like full circle opportunity where I truly feel like my life is just beginning, even though numerically it has not.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I guess so, yeah. Yeah, I mean, shoot. Baby Allison is about to wake up. Yeah, we just talked for so long.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
We'll just do tomorrow. We'll really get started tomorrow. This is all. Look, everything we've talked about. Everything we've talked about. Absolutely feeds into this case. And you guys, you're going to understand when this comes full circle at the end of 25 episodes, what we talked about today, right now, this was not for naught.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
This all wraps up and it will become crystal clear when we get to the end. Crystal clear. Crystal clear what we've talked about here. So if you've already figured it out, I would say instead of you being a psychopath, you are a genius. You are a genius. A genius, I say.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
A little bit long. I kind of feel like people are going to leave some one-star reviews.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Sorry, guys. Before they do it, they should really just check the calendar.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
They don't have venom like a snake. They're pretty awesome. So they make rabbit trails. So I've seen rabbit trails, never seen a rabbit hole.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yeah, I think this is going to be one of the most researched, most intense, and most divisive cases we will ever cover. And I think it is not an understatement to say that I just, I don't know. I don't know that we can ever top this case. So we better make it a good one.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I'm sorry. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I just want to say, you know, it's really not a joke when you're talking about murder ever, Brett. So I just wanted to make that clear for everyone who's making a one-star review who says, why do they chit-chat all the time? How dare you? How dare you, sir? How dare you, sir?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
If we didn't do this type of an introduction, I think people would actually be angry because we didn't spend enough time. Yeah, we're doing this for you. Introducing it.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
You're the best. You're the best. Well, happy April.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
What's the difference between a gopher and a groundhog?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I love it. I love it. Okay. So, but we're still going to like sign it. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I gotcha. Okay. I'm ready. I'm ready. Okay.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
We are so dedicated. So dedicated. That we just finished a two-hour question and answer legal briefs before filming this. It's true.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Oh, absolutely. Of course you have. I've watched it many times. Have you seen it? I feel like we've had this conversation before. Have we? Yeah.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I assume so because I'm pretty sure it didn't all of a sudden change sometime in the 80s or 90s where before we said, oh, it's like Groundhog Day. We're like, yeah, when the gopher comes out and it's almost spring.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Now you're blowing my mind. But what about, why would that be an idiom in and of itself? I don't know. But idioms are weird, right?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I do know this only because I now live in the South. Yeah.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
You know, I think you're giving someone a movie idea right now. Someone should make a movie called The Devil Beating His Wife.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
How did I get started on Groundhog Day? Rabbit trails. Rabbit trails. Go for it.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
It was. I actually think... I understand that people say rabbit holes, but I literally remember seeing these indentations into the grass. You could look out the backyard because when it came springtime, new rabbit trails would be formed because they went away and hibernated or whatever during the winter and the grass dies away, so the rabbit trails...
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
That's right. Which might have been made by rabbits. And being outside. Yeah. Well, definitely by rabbits, I think. I mean, that's kind of obvious. Or turtles. Who knows?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Turtles don't make trails because a lot of them swim. You know, turtles have always really baffled me because, you know, they're amphibious. So they're on the land.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
And they're also in the water. I don't know if you know where I'm going with this because I'm not sure I know where I'm going with this.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
At the same time. But they're not very fast on land. But they can't live in the water all the time. Like they die if they need air. And so it just seems so weird that they are not.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I don't know if every type of turtle can drown. But I unfortunately am going to definitely get a PETA letter. I know this because I have drowned turtles by accident.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Go ahead. Tell the story. Before we get started, go ahead and tell the story.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yeah. Should we just get started? Just like a turtle. Nobody cares about my story. Should we just get started? No, no. I want to hear your story. Okay. We can always cut it out. We can always cut it out. So you guys, you guys, maybe this will save future turtles lives. I don't know if every turtle, I'm pretty sure because they're amphibious that they have to come up for air.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
So that's why I ask one question before you get into this story. How have I killed animals?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Maybe you don't know the answer. I don't know if it's a tortoise, but a sea turtle, I think. Exactly.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I think those are different. I know they exist. Even though they look a lot the same, they're probably even in the same family. I think they're very different, but I actually have no idea. But you're right.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
No, no, they are related, but I think that those have gills. like on do they have gills i think they have gills where's the turtles i'm thinking of it's like they always stick their nose out you know they stick their nose up you've been to the park
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Exactly. Exactly. But they don't have gills, right? And they have to have their mouths up there. And typically you see them sunbathing on rocks because they can swim to the top. But just like you and I, if you paddle forever, you get tired and you sink to the bottom. And then if you sink to the bottom, don't have air, you die.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
So that may have been what happened to one of my turtles that I caught from the creek. The same creek where I found the salamanders and lizards that I played with as a child.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yes, yes, exactly. We don't have to revisit that. Yes, I played with all these adorable reptiles and amphibians. So anyways, the turtles, because I didn't put rocks in the water where I was keeping it, they did not make it.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
That and Bananas Foster's and lots of other things. Isn't it good? But I've never had turtle, I've only had turtle soup in the New Orleans fashion, meaning with a lot of sherry.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Yeah. Here's the thing. So the turtle soup you had, I assume, I went to Commander Palace's. They sued each other all over in the Fifth Circuit, that family. But that family, they opened- That's how you know it's good. Yeah, exactly. It's not called Commander's Palace, but it's the same family that opened it in Houston when I lived there. So I ate there all the time and had turtle soup.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
But the turtle soup I had there was like, it's like smooth, right? There's no chunks of turtle. This was chunky.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I was going to say, that's different. But there's a very distinct flavor.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Is it really a she-crab or are they just she-crabs?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Female chickens? Am I wrong about that? Okay, so they're supposed to all be females. Because they pick them out, right? But I think, because roosters are, they either taste different or they're whatever. But I think because chickens are, there's all this like... of how we raise them and we overfeed them because we eat a lot of chickens in this country.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I think some farms sell young roosters whose testicles have not descended and people find their testicles when they eat the chicken.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
I might be making it up, but I'm not trying to fool you.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Let me tell you about roosters. Have you seen how furry they are with the feathers?
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
Hmm. No, I've not personally been the actor who effectuated it. But you know, the thing with roosters, when you want hens laying and you have too many roosters, you don't need that many roosters. So you have to chick sex. Is that a term that you use in your law class? Because I did that.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
The homesteaders as well? Hipsters or homesteaders. It's a very wide range. To have your own chickens. Yes.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
You don't want a rooster. At all. Correct. Well, I mean, you actually want a rooster so that you can keep having hens because hens get eaten a lot by wildlife.
The Prosecutors
298. WM3 - A Little Less Conversation
No. No, you want the rooster so that you can have some fertilized eggs so that you can then hatch some little chick. Oh, replacement hens. Replacement hens. But no, the roosters are vicious, man.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Right. And remember, just this is shocking because we now know what the notes are. We had been told that there were notes and there were potential suspects, but even Bates' own motion states that the alleged facts supporting it are conflated. So there's not even clear among the investigation what they found because they are not being clear. In fact, there was no evidence.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And so when Yurik was then interviewed by Bates' team, He said that the note stated someone had said he would kill Hay was in fact referring to Adnan. And so they took this note and gave it whatever meaning they wanted to. But Yurk, who is the one who actually wrote this note, said, no, when I said someone was going to kill Hay, I was referring to Adnan Syed, not some mystery third party.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Stunningly, the SRT did indeed interview the person who provided the information to Yurik, and she told them that she did not recall Bilal Ahmed ever threatening to harm Haye. Now, despite receiving this information, Mosley nevertheless told the court that the evidence indicated that this note referred to a third party Bilal Ahmed threatening Haye.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And this is why, by the way, as he's uncovering these falsehoods, they aren't just matters of interpretation, but where they learn one thing, they even write it down. He finds like, I think he says he searches their emails, but a lot of things have been destroyed, that these are complete misrepresentations of what they know.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And by the way, that list isn't ours. That's literally a footnote in the motion. I may or may not have spit out my coffee when I read that line because he quite literally lists. He's like, there's a problem with the chain of custody. When you are relying on the defense's own file saying these documents aren't in there.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
So many people have touched this file, including, he says, YouTubers and people who are not part of his defense team have touched this file. That's not where you go to see if something's been turned over. Where you go is perhaps the prosecuting attorney. Hey, what were your practices? And indeed, he said, well, the practice, as is Baltimore law, was to have an open files discovery process.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
What that means is you can come over and flip through my physical files. Every single piece of paper I have, you can look through. And it's not just that, oh, that was the pattern and practice of my office or that was law. Because, of course, if you have a bad actor, a bad prosecutor, misconduct, even if it's the law, maybe you didn't do that.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Well, conveniently, they actually kept a log of when the defense, Syed's team, came over on multiple occasions to take advantage of the open files discovery process. And they did. And they saw these things. And one reason that we, in fact, know they knew about these things was Like Brett said, Bilal and Alonzo were known to the defense. They were the alternate suspects.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
We know this because it's been part of the lore for the last couple decades in terms of trying to say Syed was wrongfully convicted. So remember what the standards of Brady are. It's not just, oh, any scrap of paper can count. Not only was that scrap of paper, in fact, turned over or part of the open records discovery process, but number two, it has to make a difference.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And because these things were already known to the defense and they developed these alternate suspect, some other dude did it defenses. There is absolutely no Brady violation here whatsoever. And I will say Bates really comes in like vindicates Prosecutor Urich in terms of because he was thrown under the bus previously with respect to these potential Brady violations.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And then he doesn't stop there. So he goes through the two notes. He goes through the alternate suspects and he concludes, we've tried to piece together the SRTs review. We've looked at every single thing. We've recreated these things. We found out about Operation Trash Panda, where they quite literally did the whole trash poll to try and get DNA from Alonzo Sellers and the four bags of trash.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And by the way, they must be really bad at being trash pandas because they couldn't get any good DNA from it. But anyways, they detail all of these things that the SRT team did. And Bates concludes, despite all of this, they tried so hard. These two notes did not account to Brady violations. The court was told something about the evidence that was just patently untrue.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And the office knew it was untrue. And there are no alternate suspects that the defense didn't previously know about. And there's no reason to think that these that further investigation would point to either of these men being alternate suspects. And so he doesn't stop there. Even though, remember, this motion is not about guilt or innocence. He goes on to say, then there's DNA.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
So this is from the executive summary. It appears that the DNA is what Ms. Mosby relied upon to exonerate Mr. Syed. This justification is problematic for three main reasons.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
first the dna was found on a pair of shoes in miss lee's car and the shoes were never proven to be miss lee's we have found no corroborating evidence supporting that fact other than that police recovered them in the back seat of her car
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
second there were four dna samples on these shoes however mr saya's dna was not on the shoes and in fact miss lee's dna did not even appear on the shoes again creating questions about whose shoes they were and whether those were the shoes that miss lee wore that day finally
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
It appears that the DNA discovered was on the bottom of the shoes, which is unsurprising given that anyone's DNA could be transferred from the ground to a person's shoes. I'm not going to say we said it, but we said it. It is critical to note that during this office's extensive review and An email was located from an SRT member to Ms.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Mosby sent the day before she dropped the charges against Mr. Syed, stating that the DNA evidence recovered on the shoes was, quote, not conclusive of innocence. That's from her own review team. This office agrees that DNA from the bottom of a pair of shoes recovered in the backseat of the victim's car is not dispositive or even relevant to the case.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
To date, there is no information whatsoever to say that these shoes played any role in Ms. Lee's murder. Unlike Ms. Mosby, this is a real kicker, y'all. I got so excited I deleted it. My whole computer froze because I got so excited. Okay, here's the kicker. It ends with this. Unlike Ms.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Mosby, we cannot vacate this conviction based on the lack of Mr. Syed's DNA on the bottom of a pair of shoes found in the backseat of Ms. Lee's car.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Absolutely. And again, we are reading the words of Ivan Bates, who is no friend of us. I would say he was more likely to align with Mosby than us. And so these are not our words because we didn't have access to these files. He, by the way, didn't have access to these files, which is shocking.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
If I walked into an office and the Motion to Vacate review team had destroyed their records, oh, there would be hell to pay because what are you hiding? And that's exactly why he is steaming. I think there could be a different world if they didn't try to cover their tracks and try to pass on this fraud on the court to him that he has to inherit. That's why this matters so much.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And yes, to Georgetown. I used to teach at Georgetown. And I'm not sure I'd ever go back now. There you go. I was an adjunct professor there. So it might show you that they'll hire anyone. But no, I had to go through a thorough background check, by the way, and also state that I had no convicted felonies, things like that, which he continues to have. So anyways, there's more. Brett, bring us home.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Absolutely. Now, when this was filed back in 22, I remember we did a legal briefs on it. And at the time, we didn't have access to the full picture. But we actually asked a lot of the same questions that Ivan Bates also asked when he took a new look at this reinvestigation, shall we say. And if you haven't read this filing, first of all, it's going to take a while because it's 88 pages.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And that was just the executive summary y'all. That's not even the motion. The motion itself is 90 pages of just obliteration of Mosby's argument that Syed should have his conviction vacated. Much of it is an in-depth discussion of the things in the executive summary. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
But I'm going to cut to the chase. Those 88 pages essentially say we had to reinvestigate everything because the investigation led by Mosby was destroyed and Mosby wouldn't speak to us about it. And we had to piece together what was done, quote unquote, in order to support the motion to vacate. And.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
After looking at everything, reexamining the evidence, reexamining all the investigation since Mosby came into the office, I have to basically apologize to the court that I cannot stand by the lies put forth before this office. I mean, it is it goes that far. Read the footnotes. It is putting everything out there. It is naming people by names. a lot of the time.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Thank you. Thank you. Oh, there is so much more to say there. But if you are interested in how cell phone towers and cell phone information actually works, we do have an expert from the FBI, not some guy who just kind of works on electronic communications and transmissions who may or may not be tangentially related to. No, this is his thing.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And there are people who investigated this case and made representations to the court that he calls out.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Usually there's at least some sort of blocking for your office, but the misrepresentations were so egregious and they were such a miscarriage of justice, both for the victim as well as Heyman Lee's brother, that he basically righted the record and laid bare for all to see, including basically doing...
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
This is how he catches people currently like in the midst of Amber Alerts stealing information. people he finds them through cell phone tower dumps and he will talk to you about it and he came on our show on legal briefs can't remember the episode you can search for it he's awesome and it was really refreshing to see that bates mentioned the strength of the evidence here
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And he doesn't stop there because, oh boy, we know that the defense and those who claim Adnan is wrongfully convicted. They all have to bring up Jay Wilds. Jay Wilds certainly is, you know, working for the police here to frame Adnan. Well, Bates talks about the credibility of Mr. Wilds' account, and he notes that it was bolstered by the fact that his description of Ms.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Lee's clothing to police on February 28, 1999, matched what she was wearing when police recovered her body. In addition, Mr. Wilds led police to the obscure location of Ms. Lee's parked car and testimony from Ms. Vinson, and Jennifer Pusateri corroborated critical parts of Mr. Wilds' account.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Finally, Mr. Ruwanowitz matched details of Mr. Wilds' testimony with data from his own independent testing in 1999 of cell tower coverage at specific locations around the Baltimore area. In contrast with the many and varied ways that the state corroborated Mr. Wilds' account, the SRT failed to identify any actual evidence that Mr. Wilds testified falsely.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
What we did, like the Adnan did it episode, the last part of the 88 page motion seeking to withdraw the motion to vacate is essentially the whole case against Adnan. I mean, it is a work. It is a very it could have been, by the way, many of these motions. It could have been as simple as a one pager that said easy.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
although it is true and was well known to the parties at trial that mr wilds told various lies to the police during the murder investigation the mvj suggested that the state cannot rely on j wilds testimony alone
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
the state has never attempted to do so the extensive evidence presented at trial of mr syed's guilt judged substantial direct and circumstantial evidence by the highest court of the state was multifaceted and has survived repeated challenge on appeal and in post-conviction proceedings
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
That is true. And also it gives part of Jay Wilds his life back. Right. He has been just absolutely smeared across all these like social media campaigns trying to spring Adnan wrongfully from prison. And here the state is saying, look, we've looked at everything. There is no reason to think that his testimony isn't reliable here. Yeah, he told some lies. We've put that all out there.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
That was known and that was presented to the jury back then. And with all of this, this tour de force at the end of the 88 pages,
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Ivan Bates concludes, taking into account the numerous false and misleading statements in the MVJ and after fairly and dispassionately reviewing the available evidence, the state is forced to conclude that we are not able to meet our burden of proof under Maryland criminal procedure section 8-301.1. As such, we have no choice but to withdraw the MVJ. That's a mic drop.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
We reviewed the investigation and we would like to withdraw the motion to vacate as we no longer find that it is supported by evidence signed. Ivan Bates that we see all the time. Obviously, this case has a lot of media attention, shall we say, and the office was under a microscope after Mosby filed this quote unquote bombshell of a motion.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I'm going to take a slightly different tact in case she's listening and wants some ideas of what to do. I would put him back in prison for the amount of time that he was improperly out because he didn't seek the proper vehicle and because there was fraud on the court in order to make sure. Right.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
There's also the deterrence effect, shall we say, of prosecutorial misconduct that when you seek to bring fraud on the court, there are consequences and he never would have been out but for fraud on the court. And I think they will grant, you know, the juvenile whatever resentencing act.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
But the amount of time that he was out until whatever that filing was, even if it's a day in order to make a point that you have to abide by the rules of the justice system. And there are not exceptions for people who somehow get the ear of a YouTuber or get the ear of some NPR, you know, podcast that they are no different than anyone else. We all follow the same path.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
rules and the same laws Adnan Syed is not exempted that's what I would do if I were her well now if I'm getting to do whatever I want to do it's a different story that's what I predict will happen what I would I predict I'm predicting this as well well that would be great I would take that because because of the anger that she should rightfully have about the fraud on the court and I do think there needs to be a message sent I think it's within her realm and it would be very justifiable in order to do that basically saying like oh you want to skip the line you got to go back to the line
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And for him to file this out there, it really is a lay it bare for all to see. And if there was ever a question. about whether there was a Brady violation, there wasn't one. Whether there are alternate suspects who are actually viable, there are not. And whether the evidence was sufficient to convict Adnan, there was. And this is from the Baltimore City Attorney's Office.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Well, there you have it. That was the filing. You can read it for yourself. If you disagree with us, that's perfectly fine. We are not gleeful because we think we're right or anything. We are gleeful because, as we stated earlier, I have renewed faith that prosecutors' offices will do the right thing, that fraud on the court will not stand. And I'd like to say 2025 is going to be the year where...
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Reason and integrity will continue to prevail in the justice system because the justice system, unlike anything else really in our society, it only exists because we put our trust in it. And when things like what has happened around the circus of Adnan Syed, it absolutely tarnishes and degrades the entire judicial system, not just in Baltimore, across our entire country.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
That's why this matters to us, because this filing is seeking to do his part in from his office what he has control over to ensure that the judicial system is blind and no one is treated differently. And that's exactly what I would want if I were being prosecuted or if I were wrongfully convicted. And you should want this as well. You should want this for your taxpayer money.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
You should want this for the justice system that you live under. And I am very glad because Heyman Lee's name comes up multiple times in this filing. Bates does not lose sight of who the real victim is here.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And he talks about the harm done to young Lee and the entire family. And absolutely, that was done by Mosby. That was done by that office because that fraud on the court was a fraud on her and her family as well. And this is not to he does not overstep lines here. Everything he says is backed up by. That's why he shows all of the evidence that he uncovered in this.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And I can only hope that we don't have to do this again, that moving forward, there will not be motion to vacate judgment. As we saw, that was a complete fraud that we can take now. All of this. Learn from it. Move on. As we've said so many times before, don't give any more of your time to this case. It is done. It is. There are no open investigations. He did it. He has not admitted to it.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I don't think he ever will. But there is no more time he deserves from any of us. We should move on to truly wrongfully convicted people or trying to take these resources to solve cases for victims who are still awaiting justice. We do not have infinite resources. The Baltimore State's Attorney's Office doesn't have unlimited resources.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Now, hopefully, they can go work on real cases that are still open now.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
So with that, it doesn't change the sad fact that Heyman Lee's life was cut short. And let's not forget that. That's why you should feel outrage. But hopefully tonight and all the nights coming forward, Young Lee, Heyman Lee's mother, the rest of their family can at least rest knowing that the state's office took a good look and this conviction stands. And he is the one who did it.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And justice was served in the court of law for Heyman Lee. Wow. That was a fiery episode. It's a fiery filing. What can I say? But as always, let us know what you think. You can email us at prosecutorspod at gmail.com. You can read the filing for yourself. We will post it. We have posted it. Please do take a look at what a real honest investigation looks like and what
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
fraud on the court can look like and what we need to do in order. This is not about where you turn your attention and where you, you know, decide to get your news. This is real life, real justice in the courts that has real ramifications. And I hope there are ramifications for the people who perpetrated this fraud on the court.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
But with that, are there any questions that we want to answer after that fiery episode?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Why not? Let's take the temperature down a bit.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I don't know if I'm an answer. I think everything I say is weird to them, right? Like, no, don't lick your fingers after you've gone to the bathroom. Said that today.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I mean, I'll say one thing, and you know this from coming to my house all the time. I don't think we're the only people, but we started this when my oldest was like one. But my kids love sparkling water, but we don't call it sparkling water because that is a strange concept. What do you mean your water's sparkling? It's not sparkling. There's no color to it.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
So we call it spicy water or bubble water. And so we forget and we call it that in the wild. So we'll be at the restaurant and be like, can I have some of your spicy water? And they're like... Excuse me, ma'am. What?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Good for you, little buddy. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Those are really, those are really good. Yeah. My kids are really obsessed with death too. And they talk about it all the time. In fact, so much so that when I put my oldest to bed, he's seven. I don't know if it's like an age thing, but it's been several years now that when I say good night, he'll say, I'm so going to miss you when you die.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
That's how he says good night to me every night, y'all.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I'm still here. I'm still here.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Oh, this is the last one. This, you know, we've already talked about someone asked us our religion. So this this will completely Brett will completely disagree. But I was a little exhausted with questions this weekend at church. We're sitting in the pews and like all four kids are like kind of sick, coughing all over me, being really not great during church. And.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
My five year old like has asked one million questions, literally like, why is that gold? What's the light coming through? When are you going to make? Can I have some goldfish? What about that goldfish? How many? How do they make goldfish? Where are the divisor? And like nonstop and like throughout the whole mass. And like, finally, it's like 45 minutes.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
I'm Alice. And I'm Brett. And this is The Prosecutor's Legal Blues. Welcome back to the Prosecutor's Legal Briefs. I'm your host, Alice, and I'm joined, as always, by my trash panda of a co-host, Brett.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
We're almost done, but there's still like 15 minutes left. And he looks at me and he goes, what's in that cup? And I said, wine. And he goes. what happens to the wine? I said, it becomes, it's the blood of Jesus. It's part of the Eucharist. And he's like, how does it become the blood? And I said, transubstantiation. And everyone behind me started laughing their heads off.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Cause I was like, I can't answer any more questions. Like he really knows what transubstantiation is. And literally it was like five pews back. Everyone was just laughing their heads off. Cause I was like, I can't handle it anymore.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
OK, well, there we go. We've lost everybody now. Oh, my goodness. Well, guys, thanks for staying with us. We got a question for you in and see how fun these questions are. Leave a five star review. You get to ask a question. Thank you guys for ideas of what to cover on Legal Briefs. And also, don't forget our other podcast, The Prosecutor's Podcast. But until next time, I'm Alice. And I'm Brett.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And this is The Prosecutor's Legal Briefs. playing with people's emotions. I would never do that. Duh, duh. Um, yeah, I know. I mean, it took me like two days to read it, uh, broken up, but it was, uh, it was a scathing to say the least. Also, my point was it took forever to do the, to undo the craziness, you know, like imagine if they, I don't know, solved another murder during that time.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
You know, I do what I can. Trash panda is a fantastic phrase anyways, but for once, I'm not just making up and grabbing words out of the ether. This isn't a filing in the Adnan case, so I am, in fact, quoting from a motion filed by the state.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And let me say something else about Ivan Bates's integrity here. There is a world where he could have done that. Just do the easy thing and say, we stand by the motion. And no one would have been the wiser because we wouldn't have known the quote unquote investigation, the reinvestigation that was done by Mosby's team and how it was not supported by evidence.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Because what would have happened instead of having to represent this in court, it never happened.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
had to come to light he could have looked at the evidence and been like oh that's not very good it's okay we'll stand by it because it's the you know little p political good thing to do people will love it because all the media seems to say he's innocent and i'll be the hero here and then strike a deal with adnan so that they never had to present the new evidence he serves time served or whatever and none of us would ever know the shenanigans that happened
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
But that's not what prosecutors or any public servant is supposed to do. And I like have renewed faith in the public service sector that he really took a deep dive and he took a deep dive. Before we started recording, we even said in order to reinvestigate what Mosby did, it wasn't to reinvestigate Adnan's case.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
It was to reinvestigate what they did in order to put the motion to vacate together and to write this 88 page tome. they probably could have solved another murder or prosecuted many other cases that's how much time this took and they had to do that though because they had to unwind the shenanigans and this is why we've said so many times before this was not a victimless action by Mosby.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
There are probably actual real victims in Baltimore whose cases have not been prosecuted yet or fully investigated yet because they've had to spend their time basically going back to square one from 20 years ago.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
We know Adnan's guilty and he had to unwind all of the shenanigans and he had to do it for the integrity of the court because he's an officer of the court and not to do so could potentially come back with ramifications on his very profession and his license to practice law. So This is important. This is a big deal. A lot of filings get filed and we're like, nothing burger.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
This is not a nothing burger. So now that we've totally built it up, if you don't have time to read the 88 page, we'll dive in there for you.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
It's a fun read, though. It is. It's a fun read.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
It's a really fun read. I had a long day yesterday. By fun read, I mean it's told. You know, sometimes you can read a work and you know that the person's like furiously writing. I can almost see the smoke coming out of the computer, like the intensity with which he is writing. I think Ivan may have written this.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Absolutely. So let's move on to the executive summary. And like Brett said, this filing is not about guilt or innocence. It's whether the vacation was supported. And in order to do that, he had to figure out what was done in order to support, to research, to investigate what new evidence came to light in the office that allowed them to file this motion to vacate. And
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
When he started digging in, this is never a good thing. We all know lawyers have to keep records of everything. We know that when Mosby came in, he said that there was a Syed review team that was created. He abbreviates it as SRT. And usually you would think if you had an investigation, certainly something that wasn't completed.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
Because when you go to vacate a judgment, there's still things that can happen, right? The case is not yet closed. You would keep the results of your investigation. But... Unfortunately, the Syed review team did not preserve their investigation.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And when they reached out, when his office reached out to the prior state's attorney, Mosby, Mosby would not speak with Bates's attorneys to piece together what supported their motion to vacate. This is highly unusual to do an entire investigation and then to destroy your records. It's not like this was 10 years ago or 20 years ago. This was like two years ago.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
And so at the forefront, he puts this out there that there are things he cannot know. And he even notes this in footnotes. He did the best he could, but there are certain things that remain to be seen.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
So what he tried to do is he tried to recreate the investigation by interviewing everyone involved from the prosecutors to the police to defense team members to members of the state's attorney's offices. And one of the things that I think we had previously noted and he highlights is the original prosecuting attorneys who were.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- The Adnan Syed Innocence Fraud Exposed
at the time in the office, I believe, were never interviewed by the Syed review team. That's highly unusual. Wouldn't you think that you would want to talk to the people who are closest to the case, the ones who prosecuted the case, especially if you're going to allege things like Brady violations?
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Real quick question. I feel like I should know this. This has escaped me. What are the effects of plutonium on your body? I know people have asked this. What are the effects both physically but also mentally in terms of having these high levels? I don't think we do studies of this on people because it would be inhumane to expose people to this high level of plutonium. But do you know?
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I know you guys know this. I have young kids and I see the way they look at my phone. Parents out there, you can relate. Our kids want this thing we have in our hands all day. And I'm always throwing out excuses why they can't have a phone themselves.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
It's not that I hate phones or that they can't benefit from one, but the risk of what they can get unfiltered access to, that's just a no way for me. We cover lots of cases where we tell you these phones and unfiltered access to the internet and the world beyond is just too dangerous for our kids to be exposed to. Yet with Gab, they can finally get a phone without all the risk.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Hi, Brett. Just the type of energy we need after long days. But you know what? If there's a case that really gets me fired up, it's this case, because I don't think we've ever done a case like this where we are literally following the breadcrumbs to try and figure out what happened to Karen Silkwood.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Gab is the leader in safe phones and watches for kids, teens, and tweens with no social media apps, no internet browser, and GPS tracking. Gab devices are built specifically to keep kids and teens safely connected. And Gab phones have all the tech features kids There's like the Gab Music app, which lets kids stream clean music.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And for older kids, there's the Gab Phone 4 Pro with hundreds of screened third-party apps that can only be installed when parents say so.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And that is really interesting, because I think that is another aspect of the conspiracy that people think is like, whatever's happening to her, there's multiple potential conspiracies happening. But what we don't think is happening is that the amount of contamination is causing her to believe these things are happening.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Something else might be, but the mental effects are not coming from the plutonium itself. And also then goes to kind of
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
question why and we'll get more into this in the theories why if someone was trying to poison you they use plutonium when the effects are basically just death but later on not necessarily immediately so you don't cut someone off right away like say a car accident would car accident shut you up immediately right because it ends your life immediately whereas plutonium takes a lot longer and leaves a pretty long trail because of the it's hard to get rid of plutonium hence all the
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
contamination, decontamination, recontamination. You can see exactly where the contamination is going or coming because of that radioactive footprint.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Which is so bizarre because it was pretty obvious that it was spiked. This couldn't pass through her body and then originate in her fecal or urine samples. It seems that whoever did this wasn't playing the long game because when the test came back and you could quite literally see the plutonium with the naked eye, you would know that someone had spiked it. So what was the purpose?
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Indeed, indeed. I've been thinking about this ever since our first episode because I kind of hope, Lexi, if I die under mysterious circumstances, I hope I am able to leave behind a trail of crumbs because Brett, you're going to have to hold the bag. You're going to have to solve the mystery of my death.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Like, in other words, whoever did it would be found out. I think this is a really interesting thing because maybe the person didn't have to play a long game, but why not, right? That's kind of the question here.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So despite all of the crazy, very unexplainable things we've just talked about, several months later in April of 1975, so what is that, about five months after her death, the FBI investigations closed. Done. Allegedly, the FBI had a series of meetings with Kerr-McGee and closed the investigation without really looking into the true cause of the plutonium poisoning and ultimately Karen's death.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So we've worked a lot with... agents and files and whatnot. And some of you may be thinking, well, maybe it was just closed to the outside and whatnot. When you close a file, it means you're done. Now, you don't have to always make public when you close a file. So maybe things are going on that we don't know of.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But in terms of when agencies close a file, what that means is we are no longer pursuing anything within this because there has either been no evidence to further the investigation or the there's no crime or something like that. But it's not like we'll put it on hold because we've heard of other cases, like when the FBI publicly announced that they closed the D.B. Cooper case, for example.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
They had it open for like decades, right? And they can still have it open. They can also reopen it. But you don't usually close a case because that's an affirmative thing that you do for a case. If you have a cold case, you can just leave it open indefinitely.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So this is an interesting move because this is only five months after her death that they decide to close the case, as opposed to maybe 50 years later, you can understand why they close a case.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
As we always say, go to the primary sources, right? Because you're right. When you search this case, that's all I see. They never investigated or they didn't investigate, but it's nice to be able to see what was actually done. Now, this brings us to November 1975. The U.S. Senate announces that they're going to launch an investigation into Karen Silkwood's death.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Now, this investigation, by the way, I also hope that if I die a mysterious death, I get the U.S. Senate involved too.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
open an investigation now this investigation is apparently shut down after a secret meeting between a senator and the chairman of the board at kerr mcgee so this is not looking great or it's looking great for your conspiracy theory right the u.s senate's like i don't like what's happened in terms of if the prosecutor and the investigators are corrupt or part of this conspiracy we're gonna look into this
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But then here comes the board chairman of Kerr-McGee, the employer. And all of a sudden, the investigation's closed. So then this brings us to December 1975. Kerr-McGee announces that they'll be closing the Cimarron site. This is the site where Karen was working. So if we're talking about a cover-up, that's quite the cover-up to just close it all down, walk away.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So about a year later, November 1976, Karen's family files a federal lawsuit in the United States District Court for the Western District of Oklahoma, so federal court, charging the Kerr-McGee Corporation with liability for Karen Silkwood's contamination and charging Kerr-McGee security chief James Redding and his associates with a Civil Rights Act conspiracy that was meant to violate Karen Silkwood's civil rights.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So even if no criminal case was brought, her family files a civil lawsuit against the company.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Yeah, and if you remember, the last time we were looking at a series of just unexplainable contaminations by Karen Silkwood as she was in the midst of this fact-gathering, document-gathering expedition to basically show all the lax standards and kind of bad practices of her employer, Kerr-McGee. And last time we kind of had a cliffhanger, remember?
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Karen was the one who kept on getting contaminated, but when we left off last time, two other people joined her in the contamination realm, her roommate, Sherry, and her boyfriend. And so this is getting bigger than just Karen. If we're talking conspiracies, like more and more people are getting harmed here, right? So let's go back to November 11th, 1974.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
The FBI would later speculate that the tow truck that pulled Karen's car out of the ditch had actually caused the damage to her bumper. This theory was supported by the lack of paint transfer on her car.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And this theory was bolstered by the location of the damage to the bumper, which was so low on the bumper that any car involved would have had to be lower than the Honda itself, which if you've seen the Honda Civic, It's a relatively small car. It's not an SUV. It's a sedan. And so it had to be a car that was even lower to the ground than the Honda Civic.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
They further speculated that skid marks such that they existed were from previous accidents. We already talked about how she did get in an accident just on October 31st.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
they further said in the official report from crime scene investigators that cast doubt on the existence of skid marks at all so maybe that's actually just been something that's been said into the story so much that we accept as true but maybe there actually weren't even skid marks
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So if Kermagee caused the accident, they would have had to have the opportunity to remove or at least ensure someone removed the documents Karen had compiled before anyone else could get their hands on them. Again, if you look at the picture of the car, it's pretty mangled. It's a mangled metal mess.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So you'd have to think they somehow knew where the documents were going to be and were able to extract them from that mangled mess after the accident, before the police, the ambulance, the tow truck, everyone came. The most difficult part of this theory to believe, though, is the number of people who would have had to been involved to make it work.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
At that point, we now know that Karen, Sherry Ellis, her roommate, and her boyfriend are all contaminated. And so they are sent to Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory in New Mexico for further testing. And a series of tests were conducted on the trio. Ellis and Stevens' results showed that they had a small but insignificant amount of plutonium in their bodies.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Some people allege that the Oklahoma Highway Patrol were a part of the conspiracy and made sure that Kerr-McGee was notified of the accident first, giving them time to remove the documents. Additionally, there are accusations that the FBI investigation was effectively shut down because they were in cahoots with Kerr-McGee. And same with that congressional hearing.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Though this seems crazy, it's not impossible to believe, especially when you're talking about a powerful nuclear corporation. that does involve the federal government. So if you ever were to have like people in high places be in a conspiracy, you can imagine why it would be say for nuclear power that has more implications than just some private business trying to make money.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
It has national security concerns. It has national dominance concerns as well. But you'd also have to believe that basically Karen Silkwood, just a couple years earlier, a stay-at-home mother of three is now the target of a massive murder conspiracy involving the most high up in the government, as well as one of the largest corporations in the country.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But Silkwood had roughly six to seven nanocuries of plutonium, 239 in her lungs, which was about half of the maximum permissible lung burden for workers. In other words, she had much, much more in her body than her boyfriend or roommate. It's alleged that while Karen and Ellis were at the facility,
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Kerr McGee continued to search their apartment, looking for the documents Karen had collected, proving that they were violating numerous health and safety laws.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I mean, it makes a lot of sense because of all the unexplainable things that we've looked at in terms of the trail crumbs, right? The crumbs of contamination. It makes no sense. I couldn't put two and two together how she could be decontaminated. And if you remember the way she gets contaminated, there's recontamination from when she clocks back in.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So that would make sense if there really was a hole in that glove box that she would get contaminated again. But it's when she starts getting contaminated when she leaves and comes back. There should be no plutonium outside of the plant.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But when she comes back, she's been decontaminated and she clocked out as decontaminated and comes back after going to a meeting, after going home as contaminated. That's where it doesn't make any sense. And I understand. Understand why people would think, of course, the company she's pursuing to take down or at least to expose for bad practices would have a motive, right, to do something to her.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But not in this way. Really think about everything that would go wrong for Kermike if the person who is trying to expose them of their bad practices is Kermike. The one contaminated. That's the last person you want contaminated. And because of the things we said earlier, this would absolutely draw the ire of investigations and whatnot. And in fact, it did, right?
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
There was a congressional investigation that opened and then quickly closed. Probably, I think, because they saw... documents, maybe from the lawyers, maybe from the FBI report, in terms of showing pretty definitively what was happening, or at least that the contamination could not have come from within the plant.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But let me put a slightly softer bent on what may have been going through Karen's mind, because Karen obviously is not here to defend herself with this theory. I think in her mind, there was no way out. That's why I asked all those questions about the plutonium's effects on the brain. The plutonium wasn't affecting her brain.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I think her brain was already in a very desperate place when she started contaminating herself with plutonium. I mean, she is contaminating herself at levels that will be life altering, potentially life ending, certainly life ending at some point. So when she reached the level, when she reached the point of even thinking up contaminating herself...
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I think her mind had already gone to dark, dark places that she couldn't pull herself back from. Whether it was from the Quaaludes, whether it was from, remember where she is in the time of her life. Just two years earlier, she had been a stay-at-home mother with her three young children. Young, young kids.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I mean, so young that I think they were around the age that they probably can't really remember their mother. That's how young they were. It doesn't matter your life situation, whether you wanted kids or not. There is... And she certainly did. She stayed at home with them.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Two years later, all of a sudden she is in a new city, divorced without her three children who had been her entire life two years earlier. Put on top of that, she's still young. She had been on this trajectory of immense academic success that got cut short with her marriage and then the quick success of pregnancies and becoming a stay at home mother.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
All of this with a whiplash of going back to it, but not at the levels that she was previously on track for. She was previously on track to be the ones leading this type of research, not just a low-level employee. And when she gets there, she wants to be a part of something bigger. That's her whole life. That was the profile that people who knew her had built around her.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So she has this emotional power. personal life shift that I can only describe as whiplash for anybody under regular circumstances. Then you add on top of that the work pressures, the not sleeping, which having currently being in the stage of no sleeping with a newborn certainly changes your mind. You don't need external factors to make you act even crazier.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Not sleeping is a form of torture, as we know. And then adding the Quaaludes on top, which do have mental and physical effects on her. I think at this point, before she even does the first contamination, she is in a dark place and she doesn't think there's any way out.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I think when she starts going down that road of contamination, she may not have seen it clearly, but there was kind of only one path. You don't really turn back from that. especially when I do think she knows that Kerr-McGee found them out. And I do think she truly believes in what she was collecting.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Right. So the next day, November 12th, 1974, Karen calls the OCAW officials in D.C. after she returns home. One thing I want to note about when you're assessing whether it is the conspiracy theory, because look, if the facts point towards the conspiracy, I'm all there for it. So one thing to note here, Karen is being sent off to Los Alamos for testing, but she's alive. She's well.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I truly believe that she thought there were something bigger than her, that Kerr-McGee was endangering other people's lives. But she, like you said, she wasn't even high enough levels to be able to access the documents that could probably prove this if they existed at all.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And so in some ways it was like, whether she thought of it that way or not, in her mind, it may have been stress, but also I am simply showing the world what I know they are doing, but I cannot prove.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And so in some ways, I think she thought of herself, this may be too fantastical, but somewhat like a sacrificial lamb, but I don't know that she ultimately thought this would lead to such a violent outcome.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
She's not expected to be at Los Alamos for a long period of time. So Kerr-McGee knows she's coming home and coming home soon. If I were Karen, the first thing I would look for would certainly be the documents, right? Like that's my prized possession. If I have been away from my home, the first thing I'm going to do is make sure my documents are there. And if they're gone, then...
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And remember, you know, putting yourself back there. Of course, those of us on the outside, not in the midst of whatever she was going through, can say, of course, you could just pull out and be like, you did it. You definitely did it. But I can't find that you're too good. You're a massive nuclear company who has the backing of, you know, high level federal officials.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
You've obviously been able to hide the documentation. Right. You can say that. We know that from the outside. But remember what she's facing. People don't like her around her. If she fails at this, not only may she lose her job, she's brought in the New York Times. She's brought in OCAW union officials from D.C. She's brought in. She's kind of sounded the big alarm that can't be unrung. Right.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
She's like, here it is. She's not only going to lose her job, but everyone around her. She had to start her entire life over at age 26 in a new town, new coworkers, new friends, new boyfriend, new roommate, everything. And she would stand to lose everything yet again in a span of two years.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I mean, hopefully none of you have had to face losing everything in your life in the blink of an eye, but it seems like she'd already gone through that. And facing down... Kind of this next path of potentially losing everything yet again within two years of just having lost everything. I can imagine how she got to such a dark place mentally and emotionally that led her down this path.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
There's going to be hell to pay. I'm going to raise the alarm. Look, this goes even deeper. They sent me away and now they're looking for documents. So I note that because there's no expectations Karen's going to be gone for, say, an extended period of time. When she comes home the next day, Karen calls the OKAW officials in D.C.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And remember that rumor that she said and then someone apparently called into the radio station saying that someone had stolen plutonium? And we had said when we mentioned that fact, whether it was true or not, whether she had heard the rumor or not, where she had heard the rumor is how would she know about it? And there was no evidence ever of it.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And it very well may be that she knew that much plutonium was stolen because she was the one who took it. That would give her the access to be able to do all of this contamination outside of Kermagee's conspiring.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And remember, another time in the timeline of contamination where it seems like someone may not have exactly known how plutonium contamination works, double backs, is when her roommate and her boyfriend are tested and they're not contaminated. Then lo and behold, what happens? They're immediately contaminated later that day.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
It was almost like someone gave her the answer was like, well, two plus two doesn't add up here. So what happened? And so she goes and fixes it. And all of a sudden they're contaminated. You would think that sleeping next to her the night before is what would contaminate her boyfriend. Not after he'd gone to work and she had gone to work and tested contaminated.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
that later on he would be found contaminated. Kind of all these strange, not strange, it makes sense if it's intentional, but that doesn't appear to be the touch transfer contamination that you would expect would have happened.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
and she informs them that Kerr-McGee did not get the documents she had gathered. So if they had been looking, they didn't find them or they didn't take them. And she was ready to turn these documents over to the New York Times. OKAW informs Karen that New York Times reporter David Burnham would meet Karen at the Holiday Inn that was northwest at 8 p.m.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And obviously, you know, 20, 20 hindsight. But remember, a lot of the people who were at that meeting at the bar before she left noted something about her. They said that she was crying and that she seemed not well in a mental place to be able to drive herself home. Obviously, it would be emotional to be driving to meet Burnham to pass these documents over the New York Times.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
But you would think after she's worked so hard for this, this has been something she's worked on for months. It would be more of a euphoric experience.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
experience like finally they're going to be exposed everything i've worked for is coming to fruition this is no longer going to be my burden anymore now it's going to be the new york times the world's going to know what's happening rather than a crying i'm breaking down here because this is what she's built towards you would think it would be the opposite effect
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
more of a euphoric effect rather than a crying too upset to be driving herself type of thing. We don't know what was going through her mind, but if she knew what was about to happen, what she had to do when she got in that car, because she didn't have the documents to turn over to the New York Times, she knew before she got to Oklahoma City, this had to all end.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
I too would probably be crying because she knows exactly what she is going to do. May explain her emotional state.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
in Oklahoma City on November 13th, the next day. So it's all set in motion. She comes back from testing. She has the documents. She says they never got them. I'm ready to turn these over. This is all moving quickly. The next day is when everything is going to be blown wide open for Kerr-McGee, right?
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
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The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So at 7.10, Karen leaves the Hub Cafe in her 1973 white Honda Civic with those documents in hand. And she gets on Route 74 and heads towards Oklahoma City, which is roughly 30 miles away.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
some time about seven twenty to seven thirty so just about ten to twenty minutes after she leaves the cafe taryn's only about seven miles from crescent when her car went from the right lane of the highway across to the left off the road and onto the shoulder. When she does this, she hits a ditch and smashes head-on into a concrete wall of a culvert. This accident, as you can imagine, is fatal.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
It crumples the front end of her car. If you see a picture of her car, it's hard to look at because of just how devastating it is to her car. There's really no way I think anyone could have survived it. And the car was found laying on its left side, so driver's side. At 8 p.m., Oklahoma State Highway Patrol are notified of this crash, which is about half an hour afterwards.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
So, you know, you would probably have to depend on someone else to call that in, but it's not immediate that the Highway Patrol are notified. And it takes them about another 15 minutes before Highway Patrol arrives on scene. So by this point, it's probably about 45 minutes or so after the crash.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
And when they arrived, they noted that Karen's legs were broken, there was dried blood on her face, and she appeared to be dead already when they got there. Despite there being marks on her bumper indicating that she may have been hit from behind and forced off the road, they determined that this was likely a single car crash resulting from Karen falling asleep at the wheel.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
An ambulance arrived around 8.30 p.m., so 15 minutes after Highway Patrol gets there, and the ambulance transports Karen to Logan County Hospital, where it's confirmed and pronounced that she is, in fact, dead. Meanwhile, Karen's boyfriend, Drew, and the New York Times reporter, David Burnham, were waiting for her at the Holiday Inn in Oklahoma City.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Based on when she left, they expected her to arrive by 8 p.m., And they kept waiting and waiting. And by 9 o'clock, they knew something was wrong when Karen didn't show up. So they started calling around, and one of the union leaders informed them that Karen had gotten into an accident and she had died. What a terrible way to find out that your girlfriend has died, by the way.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Like, really, by them just trying to figure out what's happening. So when... Burnham and Karen's boyfriend, Drew, hears this. They get into Burnham's car and they drive to the site of the crash. But when they get there, it was peculiar because the accident scene had already been cleaned up. And all that was left, the only sign that Karen was even there, was one of her paychecks laying in the mud.
The Prosecutors
296. The Mysterious Death of Karen Silkwood Part 2 of 2
Karen's car had already been towed away. And that folder of documents that she had in hand ready to turn over to the New York Times, well, it's never been recovered.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Right. It wasn't just Wayne Jenkins. I mean, it was the entire task force, right?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Thank you so much, Ivan.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Truthfully, so we have recently discussed one of your filings. Those of you who don't know, he's obviously now the new state's attorney in Baltimore, and he filed the motion to withdraw vacature in the Adnan Syed case. But that's not all he is. You guys, this man has done it all, seen it all. We have so much to learn from him.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Ivan, something that our listeners, we have lawyers and non-lawyers who listen. But they all care very much about the rule of law and about getting justice for victims. This is something you have spent your entire career pursuing in so many facets.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
I mean, numbers don't lie. Those are some incredible statistics of violent crime dropping precipitously in such a short time. And like you said, when there are real consequences, real teeth to law enforcement, to the prosecutor's offices, it is a transactional world out there.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Can you give us just kind of a brief overview of what drove you to become a lawyer and the path that you've been on that ultimately leads you to your current position?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
When they know that they have to bring their toothbrush, the risks are much higher and we are all rational beings, including violent criminals, as you've demonstrated. Well, if one person can do so much in a city like Baltimore, where we know violent crime has historically been incredibly high, there are state's attorneys and DAs all over the country.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
What do you think is one of the biggest barriers to offices in Being able to achieve what you have, is it willpower? Is it resources? Is it, you know, having enough prosecutors or law enforcement out there? What do you think is standing in the way of every state's attorney or every DA out there being able to, you know, diminish violent crime on their streets the way you have?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
And that is what we thought was really unusual. When we reviewed the motion to withdraw the vacature, we said that it would have been just as simple, even if you had done all that work, to ultimately say in a one line, withdrawn, without having to explain your decision.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
But instead, you wrote this kind of opus, incredible emotion detailing every step, which is very interesting because rarely does the public get such an insight into an internal investigation of a prosecutor's office, but also it clearly puts it calls out individuals for potential, you know, very wrongdoing and certainly not the way that prosecutors are meant to act.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
So there's the describing to the public what you all did and why you arrived at your decision. But, you know, what what made you decide to essentially walk everyone through every seemingly every step of what you did in incredible detail with such transparency?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Well, thank you for taking the time to be here. We have so much to learn from you, and it has been such a treat just hearing about your experiences. Brett, is there anything else you'd like to ask? I'm sorry, I just get so excited asking questions.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Thank you so much. And you as well. We'll continue to follow your career and see you back next week. But to let you get to your vacation. Well, guys, you heard the man, the myth, the legend here. We hope he is, in fact, back very soon. But go read his incredible motion to withdraw the vacature in the Adnan Syed case. We've told you that and we posted it.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
There's lots of other great work coming from his office. But until next time, I'm Alice.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
And this is the Prosecutor's Legal Briefs.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
I'm Alice. And I'm Brett. And this is The Prosecutor's Legal Please. Welcome back to the Prosecutor's Legal Briefs. I'm your host, Alice, and I'm joined as always by my stately co-host, Brett.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
I mean, this is actually true in this instance, because what we are really excited about, I know you guys have been waiting for this. We have the famous he calls himself infamous. I'll let him do that. Ivan Bates, who is currently the state's attorney of Baltimore. You've heard his name in many contexts.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
That's right, because what happened for your client?
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
I told you guys that each of his experiences could be probably an entire documentary. And speaking of documentaries, you kind of glossed over one of probably the most interesting things that you had a part in, which is the Gun Trace Task Force. And this is so interesting, everything you're saying about Sergeant White, where each police officer should be treated based on the evidence.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
Just because you wear a blue uniform doesn't necessarily mean there's always police misconduct. But then kind of on the 180 as well, you were instrumental in uncovering probably one of the most egregious cases of police misconduct through the Gun Trace Task Force, which I believe there's a documentary on that you all can watch. It's called I Got a Monster. I think it's like Apple TV, Amazon Prime.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
I don't know how a person of his stature is talking to lowly Brett and myself, but we are so excited to have you, Ivan. Thank you for being here.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
I watched it. And you guys, when you start a shot with Ivan Bates, you know this is going to be a good documentary. And this was truly one of the most shocking cases that you stuck by. So I'd love to hear how this came across your desk. And I think this is a perfect example of showing how justice is blind. When there's misconduct, you call it out. When there isn't, you defend vigorously.
The Prosecutors
Legal Briefs BONUS -- Our Interview with Baltimore State's Attorney Ivan Bates
But tell us a little bit more about your role and how you came across the Gun Task Force and the craziness that then unfolded from there.
The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
My husband's in law enforcement, and my salary, this is the first year I'm at $115. I'm an engineer for a major telecommunications company. But that comes with a big caveat. I am a contract. I'm not directly on quite yet. That's right. So we have a large savings as well, and we've always been able to live within the means of his income, and mine has been...
The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
Hi. I have to say thank you to both of you and to the whole Ramsey team for everything you do.
The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
I have a question today, kind of a fun one. In 2011, I moved back from college. I'm from Fremont, California, and my mom said, hey, the car plant that used to be called New Me, dead for years, a little electric car company from across the bay is going to start building cars there. Let's invest. And through $1,000, all I had at the time, into Tesla stock, And last week, I'm upwards of $380,000.
The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
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The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
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The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
Thank you. So now, you know, happily married, we owe $288 on our home. And the question is, Whether we sell with the potential, of course, nobody knows what Tesla's capable of to pay off the home or if we hang on to it.
The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
This year it will be $175,000. Okay. So here's the question. I'm a big fan.