Greg Jenner is joined in 13th-Century Venice by Professor Sharon Kinoshita and comedian Ria Lina to learn all about medieval traveller Marco Polo and his adventures in China.Born into a family of merchants, in 1271 a teenage Marco set out for the court of the Mongol emperor Qubilai Khan with his father and uncle. They would not return to Italy for nearly a quarter of a century. In the service of the emperor, the Polos saw all manner of extraordinary things – including the Mongols' amazing imperial postal service and diamond-hunting eagles in India. Imprisoned by the Genoese on his eventual return, Polo spent his time in prison writing his Description of the World with the Arthurian romance author Rustichello, a travelogue describing his exploits in the East and the wonders he had seen. This episode explores Polo’s extraordinary life, the decades he spent travelling in China and beyond, and the fascinating account he wrote on his return. If you’re a fan of epic voyages, luxurious royal courts and medieval travel writing, you’ll love our episode on Marco Polo.If you want more from Ria Lina, check out our episode on pirate queen Zheng Yi Sao. For more on the Mongols listen to our episode on Genghis Khan, and for more medieval travel writers, there's our episode on medieval Muslim explorer Ibn Battuta. You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Hannah Cusworth Written by: Hannah Cusworth, Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars
Chapter 1: Who are the experts discussing Marco Polo in this episode?
Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are packing our trunk and boarding a ship to 13th century China to learn all about medieval traveller Marco Polo. And to help us on our way, we have two very special travelling companions.
In History Corner, she's Distinguished Professor of Literature at the University of California, Santa Cruz. Her research focuses on the intercultural relations of 12th and 13th century Asia and Europe, and in literature particularly. And luckily for us, she's the most recent translator of Marco Polo's book, as well as the author of Marco Polo and His World. It's Professor Sharon Kinoshita.
Welcome, Sharon.
Thanks, Greg. I'm delighted to be here.
We're delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, she's a comedian, actor and writer. You might have seen her on loads of things on TV, including live at the Apollo QI, Pointless, having news for you. Maybe you've seen her stand-up tour, Reawakening, or heard her on Radio 4's News Quiz or The Now Show. And you will definitely remember her from our episode on Pirate Queen, Chung-I Sao.
It's Rialina. Welcome back to the show, Ria. Thank you so much. It's great to be here. We're delighted to have you back. Now, Ria, you are, I think, officially the most educated, therefore most hyper-intelligent comedian we've ever had on. You have a PhD.
I do have a PhD, but I don't know that that makes me the most.
The most educated, perhaps. Okay.
All right. The only one that didn't have an ADHD enough to be able to finish three degrees.
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Chapter 2: What was Marco Polo's early life like in Venice?
Very familiar name to me because I used to play it all the time at school.
Okay. Or in swimming. Talk us through the rules.
The rule is that you put on a blindfold and then everyone else that you're playing with has to avoid being tagged by you. But you get clues. And what you do is you say Marco and everyone has to say Polo when you say Marco so that you can get an idea of where they are.
So you're echolocating.
Yes.
Cartographically, is that how Marco Polo traveled the world, Sharon? By echolocating. Yes.
You know, I have to continue my research because I haven't been able to unearth the foundational document for the swimming pool game.
So, what do you know? This is the So What Do You Know, where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And you've probably heard of the name Marco Polo. Much like Rie, you may have known he was a medieval famous traveller. You may even have played the famous swimming pool game. Marco! Polo! Polo! career.
Now, sadly, this is a 20th century invention, not something that Marco did splashing around in the canals of Venice when he was a little boy. If you've travelled to Venice, oh, aren't you fancy? You will have flown to the Marco Polo airport. You may have stayed in the Marco Polo hotel. He's been the subject of a Netflix series.
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Chapter 3: Did Marco Polo really travel to China?
I've heard of the website.
That's a very different type of website, Ria.
Yeah, again, something else that's changed over the centuries.
So that's Venice. Sharon, tell us about Polo's family relations. Do we know of his siblings, mother, father?
We don't know too much about the family of his generation yet, although we know a lot, well, we know a relative a lot about his father, Niccolo, and his uncle, Maffeo, because they took off to the east and they actually traveled to the court of the Mongols. a decade before Marco went with them.
So we know about them, and then the little we know about his family comes from contracts that survive in the archives. They're quite a litigious family, so they were, well... Like all merchants, they were drawing up contracts, but they were also writing wills. They had a few family disputes in there. So that's what we know about the larger family.
When Marco set out, the Polos were, you know, a merchant family, but they were certainly not part of that upper crust that furnished the dynasties of doges and so forth. So all we know about them really is what Marco and his co-author tell us in the... the first 19 chapters of their book.
In my head, I'm thinking Marco Polo is the big exciting explorer, but the dad and uncle have already done it. So there's already a trade network there, which is kind of interesting. What is the court? Where is the court?
Well, it depends on what time of year you're talking about, because remember, the Mongols are nomads. So even though they've been conquering everything in sight, and they will, by the time Marco gets there, Kublai Khan will have set out constructing his big capital, which has various names, but basically it's modern Beijing.
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Chapter 4: What did Marco Polo observe about the Mongol Empire's administration?
That's a really good guess. It's 24 years. Yes. So you've done very well. You're very good at this, Ria. You've got incredible knowledge here.
Pulling it from I don't know where.
Well, amazing. But yeah, they're there for 24 years. And Sharon, we get a sense then that Marco Polo, even though he arrives as a 17-year-old, he becomes a man in China, in Mongol-controlled China. What does he tell us about his life in Mongol China?
Well, he tells us basically zero.
24 years, Marco. Come on. He's too busy having fun. You talked about a book. What have we got?
Well, I mean, we know his book today generally as Marco Polo's Travels. When you see that travels on the title, you know, what are you expecting? You're expecting to hear about somebody's travels. But actually, the first versions of Marco's book were called not the travels, but the description of the world.
So, of course, that title puts emphasis not on Marco the traveler, but the world that he came to know. So, The book consists of 233 chapters, some of them really short, some of them longer, but only 19 of those 233 chapters are devoted to a kind of overview of first the dad and uncle, and then all three of them going to Asia and back.
The rest of the chapters are really about the places, sometimes in kind of, well, formulaic and kind of tedious fashion of just, there's this place, and then three days journey later, there's this place, and then five days after that, there's this place. You know, sometimes modern readers who pick up the book are a little bit surprised and maybe just a tad disappointed.
You know, I'm beginning to wonder whether his dad made him go to his room and just write down what happened today. And he's like, today we went to place A and tomorrow we're going to place B. Did it.
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Chapter 5: How did Marco Polo describe diamond hunting in India?
Hang on a second. But I thought as a business you had a choice who you could do business with. Now they're just saying, you will do business with me and you will take this money. Isn't it soft and silky, by the way, from the mulberry tree?
And I will be taking these kiwi fruits with me. Exactly that. Let's move on to something even shinier than paper money, which is jewels. Shiny, shiny jewels. Marco Polo listed three techniques for unearthing natural diamonds in India, interestingly enough, outside of China. Can you guess what these techniques might have been? I'll give you a clue, Ria. One of them involves eagles. What?
The big flappy birds.
Sorry, three techniques for getting jewels.
For finding diamonds.
One of them is take it off of someone else who's already got some.
That's definitely a technique, sure.
The second one is dig for them where they're made in the earth.
That's a very sensible technique, yeah.
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Chapter 6: What are Marco Polo sheep and why are they significant?
Well, there is a coffee that goes through a cat's digestive tract.
Yeah, and we've done a coffee episode if people want to listen to that. So there we go. It's all synced up.
Honestly, at this point, it is easier to just go and take them off of somebody else. I'm not endorsing that. I'm not endorsing that as a method. I'm just saying it just strikes me as easier.
Yeah, arguably that's not mining, that's theft. But sure, sure.
We didn't say mining, did we? Maybe I didn't.
Okay, fair enough.
In fact, technically none of those are mining.
Sharon, I think at the top of the show we mentioned Marco Polo sheep, which sounds delightful. What's that about?
Well, you know, Marco surprisingly often waxes lyrical about a region's animal life. And in the Pamir Mountains, the highest place in the world, he finds very large wild sheep with huge horns from which, as he tells us, shepherds made big bowls that they eat from. So today these sheep are drawing the attention both of big game hunters on the one hand and environmentalists on the other.
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